From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 01:49:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:49:44 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 06/30/2002 4:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > if anyone publishes a book which employees must > learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status > by that means alone? I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then the words in that glossary have become jargon. A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very necessary, term for a home run. The only other example I can think of is "pimp". To the general public the word means "procurer" and I won't take a stand on whether it should be considered a slang word. However, to a prostitute, "pimp" has the specific meaning of "prostitute's boyfriend". > That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to > me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal > with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of > slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech, > or jargon, which is not slang. Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, and slang outside that group. See examples above. A jargon expression may have started out as a slang expression, but have since become jargon. One example: sometime after World War II (I think in the 1960's, but I haven't been able to track down the date) airplanes were required to be equipped with transponders if they wished to fly in positive control zones (in the US, any airspace over 18,000 feet). I am guessing that someone coined the term "squawk", as in "the transponder squawks a response" or "I just got back the sqawk from flight so-and-so." If my guess is correct, then this was slang. However, the FAA and ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization, a branch of the UN to which the FAA answers for international flights) both added the word "squawk" to the glossaries of what air traffic controllers and pilots say to each other. For example, to tell a pilot to turn off his transponder, the controller says "Stop Squawk", or to turn on the altitude reporting portion of the transponder, "Start Altitude Squawk." Hence "squawk", once slang, is now jargon. (To tell the pilot to report his altitude verbally instead of by transponder, the controller says "Say Altitude".) - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. An air traffic control story, perhaps apochryphal: Controller: SAY ALTITUDE Pilot: ALTITUDE Controller (annoyed): SAY ALTITUDE Pilot: ALTITUDE Controller (fed up): SAY I'M LEAVING INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES Pilot reports his altitude. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 02:00:02 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:00:02 EDT Subject: Telephone Tooth Message-ID: Interesting.... On the outtakes of last year's fantastic movie "Hedwig and the Angry Inch", Andrea Martin has exactly that device. It's actually a quick cover up for her leaving her cell-phone on during the take, but interesting nonetheless... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 1 01:57:46 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:57:46 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <42.297a9fb3.2a510f38@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > > I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his > employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then > the words in that glossary have become jargon. > > A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one > group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang > to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A > baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged > home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning > "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. > To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very > necessary, term for a home run. [...] > Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, > and slang outside that group. See examples above. I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise consider a hallmark of slang? For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly slangy for various reasons. Jesse Sheidlower OED From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 05:13:16 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:13:16 -0700 Subject: Next store Message-ID: Additional evidence: --Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:49:24 -0700 From: Robert Houston To: Rudolph C Troike Subject: Re: Next store Dear Rudy, Further corroboration: my father-in-law, a native Brooklynite who is visiting us at the moment, remembers "next store" being so common in his 1920s and 30s boyhood that his English teacher at James Madison High felt compelled to run a drill to get students to write "next door" instead. Best, Bob Robert Houston Dept. of English/Creative Writing Program The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 520-621-1836 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 06:25:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:25:20 -0700 Subject: Route: English orthography vs phonetic/phonemic transcription In-Reply-To: <3D12001B0011E587@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU> Message-ID: I'm afraid, Tom, that somewhere along the line you got the abstract vs concrete upside down. Of course everything except an actual physical vocalization occurring at a particular point in time is an abstraction. No matter how precise I get, as a phonetician if I refer to [p] (an unaspirated voiceless bilabial stop), I am referring to a class of events which are all sufficiently similar that anyone with a modicum of training in any language in the world will recognize the _type_ of sound that is being referred to. This was part of the motivation for phonetic transcription before the day of mechanical or electronic recording, and still serves a purpose well, so we could easily talk about the sound that occurs in English words like , or transcribe it as [p], and note that it is essentially similar to the initial sound in Spanish 'bread' or Chinese 'north'. In other words, it provides a very convenient international way of transcribing sounds, and further provides the basis for teaching pronunciation in teaching English as a foreign language, or in teaching foreign languages to English speakers. A phonetic transcription will often show differences in sounds that are NOT cognitively evident to speakers of a language, the most often cited example being the difference between the initial sound of English and the second sound in . It doesn't take any deep study to show the huge phonetic difference between them, but simply putting your hand in front of your mouth when you say the words will demonstrate it. But English speakers are consciously unaware of this difference, although unconsciously they are quite aware, since they carefully control the muscles required to make the difference. This is why linguists came up with the concept of the "phoneme", which is a more abstract, purely psychologically significant distinction consciously recognized by native speakers of a particular language or variety of a language. The "same" phonetic type can belong to different phonemes in different languages. Thus Chinese speakers can readily hear the differences between the initial sound in and the second sound in , because these belong to different phonemes in Chinese. To understand why, or why Spanish speakers can't easily hear (or produce) the differences between and , an understanding of the concept of the phoneme is crucial. But we have to recognize that it is almost entirely English speakers, and primarily Americans, who are so trapped in an archaic spelling system that is growing increasingly out of touch with the actual pronunciation (and will ultimately become like Chinese characters in relation to pronunciation), and have been so ill-served by the educational system and the lexicographical tradition, that they are terrified of gaining the simplest knowledge about their very own speech, while people in other countries speaking other languages take this for granted. Thus we limp along trying to talk about our language in terms that are so handicapped and crude that they are almost comparable to people trying to talk about the composition of physical matter in terms of earth, air, fire, and water, or trying to discuss medical matters in terms of phlegm, etc. (The problems we have on this list in indicating phonetic qualities goes back to the provincialism of those who devised the ASCII code, and those who worked for the company that was ironically known as International Business Machines. It never occurred to them that we would ever have to communicate in any other language than English.) To argue that because we are saddled with such an archaic and preposterously complex spelling system, that like Chinese characters allows speakers of even almost mutually unintelligible varieties to communicate in the same written form, we should therefore limit our comprehension of our own pronunciation to this archaic orthography (SPE to the contrary notwithstanding, dInIs), is to condemn ourselves and our posterity to continued ignorance about our own or other languages. Without a modicum of understanding of the facts of pronunciation, we can't even understand the basis for the spelling system itself, to the extent that it is systematic, and we certainly can't understand how the spelling system came to be as it is today (or something so simple as why the names of the letters of the alphabet , , and differ from their pronunciation in all other European languages). In school today, and even as far back in the paleolithic as my own schooling, we studied -- and were required to study -- such complex abstract things as geometry, algebra, chemistry, and biology. No one has ever questioned these, so far as I know, but they are MUCH more abstract and complex than studying the phonology and grammar of our own language, which we have the advantage of already knowing. It is one of the great mysteries of our age as to why educators have kept, and continue to keep, us and our children and grandchildren in a state of ignorance (and worse, fear of knowledge) about our own language that would be comparable in science with still teaching that the earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun goes around the earth (of course there are a few who still believe this, but they do not dominate our educational system, fortunately). And why we continue to tolerate and condone the perpetuation of this situation is an even greater mystery. Rudy From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 06:29:07 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:29:07 -0700 Subject: 'smokemouth' for WOTY Message-ID: With this being described as potentially the worst year for fires in American history, perhaps 'smokemouth' would be an appropriate candidate for WOTY. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 07:31:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 03:31:53 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: Greetings from Valdez, Alaska...The bus driver pointed out a bar: "That's where Joseph Hazelwood had his last drink in Alaska, before he left for New York." On my Alaska ferry was William H. Landram (wlandram at fhcrc.org) of Seattle. He said that he previously taught English at the Univ. Of Wisconsin-Madison and worked on DARE in the 1960s. DARE sometimes profiles its original workers; this is for their information. VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have VFRs visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super deals on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you need to show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great time." VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent is VFR on the databases? POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a "polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay Pride Week, you know. YUKON LIQUOR--This is the name of a store in Seward. And I thought the University of Connecticut's "Yes, U. Conn.!" was bad. Yukon Liquor? I mean, is she attractive or what? JUST FOR THE HALIBUT--Halibut and salmon are the big dinner choices here. Someone at my table said he'd order it "just for the halibut." Next, he'll probably tell me why they call it a "honeydew" melon. JO JOs--We stocked up at an Eagle Supermarket (owned by Safeway). It sold "savory jo jo wedges" and "Buffalo jo jo potatoes," both at $2.39 per lb. I have to do more work on "Jo Jo." From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 1 08:36:09 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:36:09 +0100 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut In-Reply-To: <01030348.76D8F2C9.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in > the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have > VFRs visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super > deals on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you > need to show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great > time." VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent > is VFR on the databases? Wearing my (rather battered and out of fashion) tourism consultant's hat for a moment, I can tell you that VFR is a standard term in the tourism business, and has been for at least 20 years to my knowledge. It is one of the standard top-level classifications of travellers, along with "holiday" and "business". The term appeared in "Among the New Words" in Winter 1998, with a citation from 1996. My first brush with it was while developing a museum in the late 1970s; it was well established even then, I should think. It doesn't appear in any dictionary I have here, most probably because it is (pace current discussions) a jargon term of the tourism business, not that often seen elsewhere. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 11:59:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 07:59:19 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <42.297a9fb3.2a510f38@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group has slang? And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the major source of the difficulty. For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel that technical language is "unnecessary:). dInIs >In a message dated 06/30/2002 4:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> if anyone publishes a book which employees must >> learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status >> by that means alone? > >I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his >employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then >the words in that glossary have become jargon. > >A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one >group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang >to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A >baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged >home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning >"umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. >To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very >necessary, term for a home run. > >The only other example I can think of is "pimp". To the general public the >word means "procurer" and I won't take a stand on whether it should be >considered a slang word. However, to a prostitute, "pimp" has the specific >meaning of "prostitute's boyfriend". > >> That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to >> me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal >> with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of >> slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech, >> or jargon, which is not slang. > >Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, >and slang outside that group. See examples above. > >A jargon expression may have started out as a slang expression, but have >since become jargon. One example: sometime after World War II (I think in >the 1960's, but I haven't been able to track down the date) airplanes were >required to be equipped with transponders if they wished to fly in positive >control zones (in the US, any airspace over 18,000 feet). I am guessing that >someone coined the term "squawk", as in "the transponder squawks a response" >or "I just got back the sqawk from flight so-and-so." If my guess is >correct, then this was slang. However, the FAA and ICAO (International Civil >Aviation Organization, a branch of the UN to which the FAA answers for >international flights) both added the word "squawk" to the glossaries of what >air traffic controllers and pilots say to each other. For example, to tell a >pilot to turn off his transponder, the controller says "Stop Squawk", or to >turn on the altitude reporting portion of the transponder, "Start Altitude >Squawk." Hence "squawk", once slang, is now jargon. (To tell the pilot to >report his altitude verbally instead of by transponder, the controller says >"Say Altitude".) > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > >P.S. An air traffic control story, perhaps apochryphal: > >Controller: SAY ALTITUDE >Pilot: ALTITUDE >Controller (annoyed): SAY ALTITUDE >Pilot: ALTITUDE >Controller (fed up): SAY I'M LEAVING INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES >Pilot reports his altitude. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 12:00:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:00:19 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <20020701015746.GA22933@panix.com> Message-ID: >The lexicographer and the sociolinguist agree. dInIs >On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: >> >> I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his >> employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then >> the words in that glossary have become jargon. >> >> A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one >> group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang >> to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A >> baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged >> home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning >> "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. >> To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very >> necessary, term for a home run. >[...] >> Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, >> and slang outside that group. See examples above. > >I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both >jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular >group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the >rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise >consider a hallmark of slang? > >For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical >personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. >This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning >among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's >no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations >to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly >slangy for various reasons. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 12:07:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:07:54 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut In-Reply-To: <01030348.76D8F2C9.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: In this, of course, the usually open-minded Barry reveals the depths of his New Yorkness in wanting people who speak American English to distinguish so many of the front vowels before /r/; I'm afraid the vast majority of us lost souls would not distinguish "ferry" and "fairy." dInIs > Greetings from Valdez, Alaska...The bus driver pointed out a bar: >"That's where Joseph Hazelwood had his last drink in Alaska, before >he left for New York." > On my Alaska ferry was William H. Landram (wlandram at fhcrc.org) of >Seattle. He said that he previously taught English at the Univ. Of >Wisconsin-Madison and worked on DARE in the 1960s. DARE sometimes >profiles its original workers; this is for their information. > >VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in >the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have VFRs >visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super deals >on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you need to >show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great time." >VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent is VFR on >the databases? > >POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He >said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a >"polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay >Pride Week, you know. > >YUKON LIQUOR--This is the name of a store in Seward. And I thought >the University of Connecticut's "Yes, U. Conn.!" was bad. Yukon >Liquor? I mean, is she attractive or what? > >JUST FOR THE HALIBUT--Halibut and salmon are the big dinner choices >here. Someone at my table said he'd order it "just for the >halibut." Next, he'll probably tell me why they call it a >"honeydew" melon. > >JO JOs--We stocked up at an Eagle Supermarket (owned by Safeway). >It sold "savory jo jo wedges" and "Buffalo jo jo potatoes," both at >$2.39 per lb. I have to do more work on "Jo Jo." -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Jul 1 13:12:00 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:12:00 -0400 Subject: ..recently heard, pranked with room.. Message-ID: Not sure if the following is jargon, but in a Whole Foods store in St. Paul, MN, at the juice bar, a coffee was ordered "with room". When I asked about the meaning of 'with room', I was told that it meant to leave room for the addition of cream or sugar or other additive, as opposed to merely filling the container with coffee. ===================== Another recently heard word, used at the PSU Hershey Medical Center, by a secretary, is pranked, as in "we were just pranked". She had answered the telephone, and the caller was playing a joke, by pretending to be a potential patient. Yes, apparently, pranked is not all that new, with Google returning over 1,900 hits, but it was new to these aged ears. And, the single word is a little more efficient than using the statement "someone just tried to play a prank". The secretary realized that it was a prank call. I'm not sure if the word is used for both the situation where a prank is attempted, i.e., the respondent realizes that someone is trying to fool the respondent, as well as the situation where the prank succeeds, i.e., the respondent is fooled. George Cole Shippensburg University From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 13:42:14 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:42:14 -0500 Subject: Abstract / Concrete Message-ID: on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: > > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from > English > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" > > Good question. Answer: A literate person is > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. (snip) > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > please say PYE- not PAY-). PYE- as in Pierre? Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. DMLance From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 14:28:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:28:51 -0400 Subject: ..recently heard, pranked with room.. In-Reply-To: <3D205520.E10774A4@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: GSCole said: >Not sure if the following is jargon, but in a Whole Foods store in St. >Paul, MN, at the juice bar, a coffee was ordered "with room". When I >asked about the meaning of 'with room', I was told that it meant to >leave room for the addition of cream or sugar or other additive, as >opposed to merely filling the container with coffee. I've been ordering coffee in New Haven "without room" for almost 15 years. Alice From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 14:42:00 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:42:00 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 8:10:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group > has slang? Yes, a special interest group may have slang terms that are not part of their jargon, that is, terms that are not "necessary" (that is, can be easily avoided by using either jargon or standard terms). Baseball example: "gear" is jargon, because the alternative is to specify "face mask, chest protector, and shin guards" (7 words, 8 if "cup" is included). However, "toos of ignorance", a synonym for "gear", is slang. Air traffic control example: rules require certain separations between aircraft. There are some jargon terms (more than one, because the rules levy multiple requirements.) However, controllers have additional terms for loss of separation that are slang because they would probably not get into written reports. One that I heard in a conversation between controllers was "deal". (I suspect, but do not know, that the implication was that two controllers might have made a "deal" to simplify things by ignoring the regulations.) Another one I once heard was "two jets got a close look at each other". > And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for > police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at > least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." No. For the police officers, it was jargon in that they were ordered to learn it. However, the linguistic interest lies in whether a particular term is slang or jargon to a drug user, not to the police who are outside observers. Examples: I think you will agree that "horse" for "heroin" is slang. However, "nickel" is jargon because it saves the speaker the trouble of saying "a five dollar bag of [the drug in question]." > I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint > what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories > (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the > major source of the difficulty. I do not have any definition of slang worth stating here. To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific technical meaning that one could write books about; however, this usage is so well known to the general public that arguably it is standard English. Other meanings or connotations of "to jazz up" may well meet someone's definition of slang. Scientific American once discussed whether Brahms, as a conductor, had a "jazzy style" In this case it is borderline whether "jazzy" is slang or jargon (or even standard English). "Jazzy" was used to mean "somewhat irregular beat, definitely not like a metronome". Was the writer using a jargon term to describe a conductor's beat, or a slang term that could have been replaced by "syncopated"? I could argue either way. > For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the > same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well > as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). I agree. Hopefully that is what I was doing in my previous paragraph. > One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to > indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but > sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel > that technical language is "unnecessary:). Agreed. I am a purist on the word "jargon", but most people are not( my teenage daughter says that "jargon" means "slang that has been cleaned up.). Example: Google gives 220 hits on the phrase "barbarous jargon". Example: about a century ago, "Jargon" was used as a derogatory term for "Yiddish". - Jim Landau - Jim Landau From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Jul 1 15:04:19 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:04:19 -0400 Subject: Next store Message-ID: Count me (b. Brooklyn 1940) as a "next store" person as well. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 15:36:06 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:36:06 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I completely reject the "necessary" argument, which seems to suggest that "economy" is the defining characteristic of slang. Too many counterexamples (slang phrases longer than the "standard") to mention. dInIs >In a message dated 7/1/02 8:10:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group >> has slang? > >Yes, a special interest group may have slang terms that are not part of their >jargon, that is, terms that are not "necessary" (that is, can be easily >avoided by using either jargon or standard terms). Baseball example: "gear" >is jargon, because the alternative is to specify "face mask, chest protector, >and shin guards" (7 words, 8 if "cup" is included). However, "toos of >ignorance", a synonym for "gear", is slang. Air traffic control example: >rules require certain separations between aircraft. There are some jargon >terms (more than one, because the rules levy multiple requirements.) >However, controllers have additional terms for loss of separation that are >slang because they would probably not get into written reports. One that I >heard in a conversation between controllers was "deal". (I suspect, but do >not know, that the implication was that two controllers might have made a >"deal" to simplify things by ignoring the regulations.) Another one I once >heard was "two jets got a close look at each other". > > >> And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for >> police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at >> least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." > >No. For the police officers, it was jargon in that they were ordered to >learn it. However, the linguistic interest lies in whether a particular term >is slang or jargon to a drug user, not to the police who are outside >observers. Examples: I think you will agree that "horse" for "heroin" is >slang. However, "nickel" is jargon because it saves the speaker the trouble >of saying "a five dollar bag of [the drug in question]." > >> I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint >> what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories >> (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the >> major source of the difficulty. > >I do not have any definition of slang worth stating here. > >To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and standard at the same >time, depending on use and meaning. Example: "jazz", whose origins have been >disucssed at length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" it is >standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual intercourse" it is slang. > "To jazz up (a piece of music)" is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a >specific technical meaning that one could write books about; however, this >usage is so well known to the general public that arguably it is standard >English. Other meanings or connotations of "to jazz up" may well meet >someone's definition of slang. Scientific American once discussed whether >Brahms, as a conductor, had a "jazzy style" In this case it is borderline >whether "jazzy" is slang or jargon (or even standard English). "Jazzy" was >used to mean "somewhat irregular beat, definitely not like a metronome". Was >the writer using a jargon term to describe a conductor's beat, or a slang >term that could have been replaced by "syncopated"? I could argue either way. > >> For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the >> same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well >> as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). > >I agree. Hopefully that is what I was doing in my previous paragraph. > >> One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to >> indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but >> sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel >> that technical language is "unnecessary:). > >Agreed. I am a purist on the word "jargon", but most people are not( my >teenage daughter says that "jargon" means "slang that has been cleaned up.). >Example: Google gives 220 hits on the phrase "barbarous jargon". Example: >about a century ago, "Jargon" was used as a derogatory term for "Yiddish". > > - Jim Landau > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 15:34:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:34:37 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and > standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. > Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at > length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" > it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual > intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" > is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific > technical meaning that one could write books about; > however, this usage is so well known to the general public > that arguably it is standard English. "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. "Jargon" on the other hand is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide room for overlap. But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and jargon/slang. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language; they can't also be standard. So if "jazz it up" is a standard English phrase (I would agree that it is), then in becoming standard it has ceased to be jargon or slang. You might designate it as "from musical jargon," but that is distinctly in the past. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 15:56:40 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:56:40 -0500 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <001801c22114$cfbd56f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: on 7/1/02 10:34 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: >> To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and >> standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. >> Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at >> length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" >> it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual >> intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" >> is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific >> technical meaning that one could write books about; >> however, this usage is so well known to the general public >> that arguably it is standard English. > > "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a > single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, > but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its > informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, > those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. DMLance > "Jargon" on the other hand > is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either > formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The > definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide > room for overlap. > > But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and > jargon/slang. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language; > they can't also be standard. So if "jazz it up" is a standard English phrase > (I would agree that it is), then in becoming standard it has ceased to be > jargon or slang. You might designate it as "from musical jargon," but that > is distinctly in the past. > From hakala at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 1 16:10:12 2002 From: hakala at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (T. Hakala) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:10:12 -0700 Subject: Route: English orthography vs phonetic/phonemic transcription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Rudolph C Troike wrote: > In school today, and even as far back in the paleolithic as my own > schooling, we studied -- and were required to study -- such complex > abstract things as geometry, algebra, chemistry, and biology. No one has > ever questioned these, so far as I know, but they are MUCH more abstract > and complex than studying the phonology and grammar of our own language, > which we have the advantage of already knowing. It is one of the great > mysteries of our age as to why educators have kept, and continue to keep, > us and our children and grandchildren in a state of ignorance (and worse, > fear of knowledge) about our own language that would be comparable in > science with still teaching that the earth is the center of the universe, > and that the sun goes around the earth (of course there are a few who > still believe this, but they do not dominate our educational system, > fortunately). And why we continue to tolerate and condone the perpetuation > of this situation is an even greater mystery. > > Rudy Indeed! Here at the University of Washington, English Language Study is not a required course -- not even for English majors. Additionally, a course entitled History of the English Language was most recently offered as a "special topics" course. Taryn Hakala From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:27:56 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:27:56 EDT Subject: the definition of slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 11:59:57 AM, lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU writes: << Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. >> The problem here for me is that SLANG (and to a lesser extent maybe JARGON) is not a discrete, cripsly defined linguistic concept like LABIAL or RELATIVE CLAUSE but rather a sort of family of concepts governed by several different criteria. Isn't that basically what Bethany Dumas and J. Lighter said in their landmark essay a number of years ago on the definition of slang? From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Jul 1 16:29:36 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:29:36 +0100 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a > particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These > terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like > 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. > > DMLance > Drug Slang/ Drug Jargon If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ drug terminology could be labelled jargon. And as such should be disqualified from the slang lexica. But the reality is that certain terms - 'cool' (used of course in many areas other than drugs), 'pot' and 'grass' are good examples - have long since crossed over into mainstream congnisance and indeed use. There are many others, 'crack' or 'ecstasy' (MDMA) being obvious contenders. So I would place them among slang. There is also, surely, an argument to suggest that simply through the numbers of speakers - the drug-using 'community' must run into its tens of millions in English-speaking countries alone - that the sheer volume of use of these words takes them out of the relatively limited world of jargon and into the wider one of slang. One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. Thus I would define 'smack' for heroin as slang, but 'to shoot gravy': for a narcotics addict to reinject the blood that has been drawn into the syringe and there mixed with the heroin solution, as jargon. Though even here the line is permeable: 'joint', a marijuana or hashish cigarette is well known and widely used enough to be slang, even though it falls into the area of 'equipment'. As I say, it is but a suggestion - and the line is in the end probably impossible to draw. Jonathon Green From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:44:23 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:44:23 EDT Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:32:37 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a "polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay Pride Week, you know. >> Regardless of how Barry (or is it Berry?) pronounces the words FAIRY and FERRY, this little slur is offensive (not to mention pointlessly puerile). From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 1 16:49:32 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:49:32 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: Larry Horn notes of "clever" "It's actually a very interesting word in terms of subtle semantic shifts. I'm aware of (some of) the differences between contemporary British and U.S. applications of "clever". . . ." Here's another: Charles Roach brought up to the police office charged with having last Thursday evening stolen his honour the Mayor's coat, out of his (the Mayor's) house. On examination, denied the charge; says, he don't know how the coat came to be in the street -- never owned such a coat in his life. When were you last discharged from prison? I came out of the penitentiary the 6th of last July; had been there six months. What crime were you then committed for? You (to the magistrate) committed me, but whether for stealing or being drunk I can't tell. How many days have you been sober since last discharged? None at all. Where did you get money to keep so constantly drunk? Worked for it; just did as much work as kept me cleverly drunk. New-York Evening Post, August 12, 1820, p. 2, col. 5 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 16:45:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:45:37 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a > particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those > groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." > What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's > so hard to define 'slang'. Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and slang usage. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:55:46 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:55:46 EDT Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at least there used to be, in American gay lingo. Is that still current? Has it spread outside gay talk? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 17:21:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:21:58 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: I was on a ferry all day from Seward to Valdez. I heard "fairy" for "ferry" and wrote a line reporting that. I did not mean to be offensive, and apologize if I offended anyone. The free newspaper THE PRESS has a Gay Pride Week story titled "Queer on the Last Frontier." I didn't see any slang or phrases worth reporting, or I would have reported them. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 17:33:29 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:33:29 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000c01c2211c$802ed930$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: >I continue to be puzzled why "jargon" and "slang" can't happily co-exist. dInIs > > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These >> terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term >like >> 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. >> >> DMLance >> > >Drug Slang/ Drug Jargon > >If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the >obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion >so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ >drug terminology could be labelled jargon. And as such should be >disqualified from the slang lexica. But the reality is that certain terms - >'cool' (used of course in many areas other than drugs), 'pot' and 'grass' >are good examples - have long since crossed over into mainstream congnisance >and indeed use. There are many others, 'crack' or 'ecstasy' (MDMA) being >obvious contenders. So I would place them among slang. There is also, >surely, an argument to suggest that simply through the numbers of speakers - >the drug-using 'community' must run into its tens of millions in >English-speaking countries alone - that the sheer volume of use of these >words takes them out of the relatively limited world of jargon and into the >wider one of slang. One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be >slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. Thus I >would define 'smack' for heroin as slang, but 'to shoot gravy': for a >narcotics addict to reinject the blood that has been drawn into the syringe >and there mixed with the heroin solution, as jargon. Though even here the >line is permeable: 'joint', a marijuana or hashish cigarette is well known >and widely used enough to be slang, even though it falls into the area of >'equipment'. As I say, it is but a suggestion - and the line is in the end >probably impossible to draw. > >Jonathon Green -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 17:36:22 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:36:22 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <005b01c2211e$bb3abec0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). dInIs > > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those >> groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." >> What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's >> so hard to define 'slang'. > >Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely >defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more >precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War >reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which >encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college >students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. > >I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's >informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English >nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. > >Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and >slang usage. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Jul 1 18:13:03 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:13:03 -0400 Subject: Abstract / Concrete Message-ID: Answer #3: Sorry if I overstated anything, but that was on an empty stomach. My logic is vintage 1955, but let me try, so help me professors of logic: You are saying S = +P ("+" based on your use of "more" and "better"). In effect, you are saying or implying, perhaps as a corollary, that "abstract" as a concept admits of degree (cf. levels of abstraction). Thus some concepts are more abstract than others. I would like to say that orthographic spellings are less abstract than IPA. There's, of course, a perceptual element to this, IDIOsyncratic as we all are. But, logic apart, I agree with what you mean, namely, "the orthographic representations [I] prefer [are] more accessible to better-than-moderatly literate speakers of English," vague as this statement is. To my own idiosyncratic thinking, identical twins are less concrete (more abstract) than fraternal twins (more concrete, less abstract). Answer #2: Not PYE- as in Pierre, but -AI- as in "aisle," etc. You are citing an exception in support of your argument, but exceptions (as in Conan Doyle and TMP's "native speaker" book) don't prove anything. Answer #1: Speakers of Spanish, etc. are supposed to be at the (vaguely) Grade 6 level of English proficiency. Non-English speakers starting from zero would have to use some aural-oral method of language acquisition first before being able to use a dictionary meant for the English-speaking masses. I enjoyed Rudy's lecture. I too was trained as an academic, but since 1960, I have lived and worked in a commercial world, though with little profit motive. I think our differences are based on differences of attitude and (sub-conscious?) vested interests. Sorry if I have overstated it. TOM PAIKEDAY, lexicographer, www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (alpha version) Donald M Lance wrote: > > on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: > > > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: > > > > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from > > English > > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" > > > > Good question. Answer: A literate person is > > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. > > Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. TMP: Please see answers above, #1 > > (snip) > > > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > > please say PYE- not PAY-). > > PYE- as in Pierre? TMP: Answer #2 > > Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic > representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately > literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete > only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. TMP: Ans. #3 > > DMLance From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jul 1 18:20:41 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:20:41 -0400 Subject: PFD, Pioneer homes; Duckfarts (cocktail) Message-ID: Both _PFD_ and _personal flotation device_ are entered in The Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (c. 1990) with e.q.'s of 1972. I believe that was the year the Coast Guard invented the term. Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > Greetings from Seward. I go to Valdez in about five minutes. > >PFD--Personal Flotation Device. (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.) > >PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska. > >MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter >cups. > >DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender. He comes from Albany, NY. >He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there. He says it's like a >B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different. > Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha. >Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > Greetings from Seward. I go to Valdez in about five minutes. > >PFD--Personal Flotation Device. (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.) > >PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska. > >MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter >cups. > >DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender. He comes from Albany, NY. >He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there. He says it's like a >B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different. > Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha. > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 18:58:29 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:58:29 -0400 Subject: Abstract / Concrete In-Reply-To: <3D209BAF.5F6C5749@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: If "more concrete" means "more accessible to larger numbers of people," then I we have certainly left the ordinary (and even specialized) senses of the words rather far behind, although I note some common use for "abstract" to mean "complex," or even "arcane." If Tom meant this, I wish he had said so. I take non strong position (as Rudy) did on the efficacy of an IPA-like as opposed to standard orthographic representation for dictionaries. I am sympathetic to the fact that since we do not have this in our tradition, it makes it very difficult to introduce. dInIs PS: Yes, Tom, your reference to twins is idiosyncratic indeed. >Answer #3: Sorry if I overstated anything, but that was on an empty >stomach. > >My logic is vintage 1955, but let me try, so help me professors of >logic: > >You are saying S = +P ("+" based on your use of "more" and "better"). In >effect, you are saying or implying, perhaps as a corollary, that >"abstract" as a concept admits of degree (cf. levels of abstraction). >Thus some concepts are more abstract than others. > >I would like to say that orthographic spellings are less abstract than >IPA. There's, of course, a perceptual element to this, IDIOsyncratic as >we all are. But, logic apart, I agree with what you mean, namely, "the >orthographic representations [I] prefer [are] more accessible to >better-than-moderatly literate speakers of English," vague as this >statement is. To my own idiosyncratic thinking, identical twins are less >concrete (more abstract) than fraternal twins (more concrete, less >abstract). > >Answer #2: Not PYE- as in Pierre, but -AI- as in "aisle," etc. You are >citing an >exception in support of your argument, but exceptions (as in Conan Doyle >and TMP's "native speaker" book) don't prove anything. > >Answer #1: Speakers of Spanish, etc. are supposed to be at the (vaguely) >Grade 6 >level of English proficiency. Non-English speakers starting from zero >would have to use some aural-oral method of language acquisition first >before being able to use a dictionary meant for the English-speaking >masses. > >I enjoyed Rudy's lecture. I too was trained as an academic, but since >1960, I have lived and worked in a commercial world, though with little >profit motive. I think our differences are based on differences of >attitude and (sub-conscious?) vested interests. Sorry if I have >overstated it. > >TOM PAIKEDAY, >lexicographer, >www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (alpha version) > > >Donald M Lance wrote: >> >> on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: >> >> > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: >> > >> > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from >> > English >> > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" >> > >> > Good question. Answer: A literate person is >> > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. >> >> Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. >>TMP: Please see answers above, #1 >> >> (snip) >> >> > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable >> > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares >> > please say PYE- not PAY-). >> >> PYE- as in Pierre? TMP: Answer #2 >> >> Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic >> representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately >> literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete >> only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. TMP: Ans. #3 >> >> DMLance -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:20:20 2002 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Johnson, Ellen) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: speaking of virus msg Message-ID: this came to me today. note the assessment of the sender that we on this list simply labeled "non-native speaker". Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Teachyou99 at aol.com [mailto:Teachyou99 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:50 PM To: Teachyou99 at aol.com Subject: FYI THIS IS THE WAY THIS EMAIL CAME TO ME. IT IS INFECTED WITH A VIRUS. YOU CAN SEE BY THE ILLITERACY OF THE WRITERS MESSAGE, THE DEMENTED PERSON WITH WHOM WE'RE DEALING IS EXEMPLIFIED BY THE MESSAGE. IF YOU RECEIVE IT, IMMEDIATELY DELETE IT! FROM: SUBJECT: ENDOFTRANSACTION A FUNNY WEBSITE Subj: A funny website Date: 6/28/2002 8:35:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: endoftransaction at ebay.com (endoftransaction) To: Teachyou99 at aol.com File: Hr.zip (46445 bytes) DL Time (57600 bps): < 1 minute Hello,This is a funny website I wish you would like it. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:27:36 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:27:36 -0500 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <005b01c2211e$bb3abec0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: >> Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those >> groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." >> What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's >> so hard to define 'slang'. > > Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely > defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more > precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War > reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which > encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college > students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. > > I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's > informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English > nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. > > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang > terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for > decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or > categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and > slang usage. > I agree. This is how I would have answered my own questions. DMLance From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:33:47 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:33:47 -0400 Subject: the definition of slang In-Reply-To: <66.23430d35.2a51dd0c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >The problem here for me is that SLANG (and to a lesser extent maybe JARGON) >is not a discrete, cripsly defined linguistic concept like LABIAL or RELATIVE >CLAUSE but rather a sort of family of concepts governed by several different >criteria. > >Isn't that basically what Bethany Dumas and J. Lighter said in their landmark >essay a number of years ago on the definition of slang? Indeed: Dumas, Bethany K., and Jonathan Lighter. 1978. "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?" American Speech 53.1:1Ð5, 17. [revised version of a paper read at the American Dialect Society, San Francisco, December 1975] Bethany From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 19:40:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:40:26 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 12:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the > obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion > so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ > drug terminology could be labelled jargon. Your definition is incorrect. The language used by a specific "occupational" group is its "lingo", or if a beyond-the-law group, its "argot" or "cant". All drug terminology could, in fact, should be labelled "argot." Within the drug argot there are jargon terms, there are slang terms, and there are terms on which we could split hares until Australia runs out of rabbits. Also, one should note that there are multiple illegal drug groups. A person who solely uses marijuana, for instance, is unlikely to need argot terms specific to narcotics. ****************************************************************************** ******** In a message dated 7/1/02 11:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a > single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, > but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its > informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, > those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. "Jargon" on the other hand > is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either > formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The > definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide > room for overlap. Bravo! I agree. > But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and > jargon/slang. I made no such claim. I stated that DIFFERENT senses of the word "jazz" had to be sorted differently. to jazz = to have sex ---- slang to jazz up (a piece of music) --- musicians' jargon, but widely enough used, and widely enough recognizable, to be considered standard to jazz (up) = to enliven or accelerate (MWCD10 definitions 1a and 1b) ---originally slang, but like the previous, widely enough used to be considered standard By the way, M-W says that senses 1a and 1b antedate the musician's technical sense, which is the opposite of what I thought. ****************************************************************************** **** In a message dated 7/1/02 12:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be > slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. No. Your suggestion is highly artificial and not useful. If "smack" and "horse" were used to distinguish between different grades of heroin, they would obviously be jargon terms. As far as I know, they don't, therefore they are argot but not jargon by my definition. On the other hand, if you were to record half a dozen terms for an IV needle, and these terms were not used to distinguish needles by bore, capacity, etc., then they would be slang. ****************************************************************************** *********** I still don't have a definition for slang, but I would like to point out one frequent element: slang terms are sometimes, though definitely NOT always, poetic. That is, they sometimes employ elements of poetry, such as imagery, hyperbole, or understatement. To stick with narcotics, uh, argot: "horse" ---- alliterative with "heroin" "smack" --- possibly (I'm guessing) hyperbole, referring to the fast onset of a high "mainline" ---- hyperbolic imagery, a blood vessel being awarded the metaphor of a railroad track - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 19:53:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:53:27 EDT Subject: "ebay" as an adverb Message-ID: >From an e-mail from a local charitable organization: "We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser." - Jim Landau From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 19:49:09 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:49:09 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and > "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world > no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). Guilty as charged regarding flying by the seat of my pants, but I would substitute "personal experience" for "personal feelings." It is a judgment based on how I've encountered the use of the terms, not on what I would like them to be. But you've challenged me to justify this judgment... Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, while "grass marijuana" gets you only some 38,900. This is probably a pretty good indicator of the relative popularity of the two terms. Searching in NY Times over the last week (24 Jun-1 Jul), turns up 14 articles containing the word "marijuana." There are two articles containing the word "pot" in the drug sense, one a letter to the editor and the other an excerpt from a novel. There are no uses of "grass" in the drug sense for the same period (lots of articles about Wimbledon though). A similar search in the Washington Post also turns up 14 articles with "marijuana." None for "pot" or "grass." AP has some 20 articles with "marijuana" (that number is rough because AP posts articles to the wire multiple times and I may have miscounted). It has 2 with "pot;" one uses it in a headline, the other in a direct quote. CNN.com has six articles with "marijuana" for the same period. It uses the drug sense of "pot" in two articles; CNN doesn't use quotation marks or otherwise indicate that it's a slang term. Evidently, CNN has a different editorial policy regarding use of the term than the other three. Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. Looking at Salon.com, which provides a more general commentary and language use than the strictly editorially supervised news services, we find a total of 1528 articles online with "marijuana" (no date restriction on the search, so you can't compare frequency of appearance with the above news sources). Of these, 1197 use the word "pot," and only 48 use the term "grass." Salon does not use quotation marks around "pot" or otherwise indicate that it is a slang term. Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:16:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:16:22 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >> terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >> decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >> categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and > > slang usage. I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that has retained its slang categorization. L From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:15:50 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:15:50 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:19:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:19:39 -0400 Subject: "ebay" as an adverb In-Reply-To: <17b.a88dacd.2a520d37@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0400 7/1/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >From an e-mail from a local charitable organization: > > "We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new >merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser." > Not an adverb here, any more than "house" is in "house-proud" or "trigger" in "trigger-happy". I'd analyze "ebay(-)savvy" as a compound adjective incorporating a nominal modifier. L From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 20:19:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:19:33 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:56:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, A Google search on the word "googling" turned up 6,410 hits. I can't decide whether to characterize this as Web-users' jargon, slang, or simply the English language's ready ability to verb a noun. (56 hits on "to verb a", a phrase I first encountered circa 1998). - James A. Landau From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 20:22:25 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: RE what Jesse S points out below, and his example _bumsickle_: Given that it is not a substitute term for some common term (the core idea behind slang, per Fred Cassidy), I'd label this "informal". However, it is certainly true that it feels "slangy". Because of the widespread misunderstanding or murkiness of the meaning of "slang", the (UK) New Oxford Dictionary of English (1998) took the extreme step of not using the "slang" label at all. They used "informal" instead. This struck me as going too far. All slang is informal, but not all that it informal is slang. A good example is _bumsickle_. Oh, and btw, might it be spelled "bumsicle", on the grounds that it is a play on _Popsicle_, the brand name for a frozen treat? Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 9:58 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: An initial 4A N2...? On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > > I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his > employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then > the words in that glossary have become jargon. > > A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one > group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang > to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A > baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged > home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning > "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. > To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very > necessary, term for a home run. [...] > Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, > and slang outside that group. See examples above. I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise consider a hallmark of slang? For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly slangy for various reasons. Jesse Sheidlower OED From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 20:40:33 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:40:33 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000f01c22138$5ea08ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Dave Wilton said, re the use of the terms _pot_ and _grass_ ('marijuana) in the news media: >> Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. << All the major media have editorial policies, though things still slip through the editorial process. I propose a different arena as "the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term". That would be language used by attorneys in courts of law, when asking questions of witnesses. Slang is avoided, or at least defined for the record (if used in testimony) so that the reference is clear. Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:59:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:59:32 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:22 PM -0400 7/1/02, Frank Abate wrote: >RE what Jesse S points out below, and his example _bumsickle_: > >... >Oh, and btw, might it be spelled "bumsicle", on the grounds that it is a >play on _Popsicle_, the brand name for a frozen treat? > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an old TV show?) larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:07:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:07:05 -0400 Subject: Bergy Bits, Growlers, PIGs, I&I; Alaska Dictionary (1988) Message-ID: Greetings from the Valdez Library (Alaska). BERGY BITS, GROWLERS--Seen on a display at the Valdez Museum. Broken off bits of icebergs. BALEEN--The Museum says it's called "nature's plastic." SLIMERS--People involed in seafood processesin, such as the "slime line." PIGs--Pipeline Inspection Gauge. There are smart pigs and scraper pigs. It was written as "pigs" and not PIGs." One tour guide here didn't know the acronym. ROUTE, ROOF--The tour guide is from Michigan, and she came to Valdez in 1975. "Route" she pronounced like the word "out," and "roof" she said like the word "rough." ------------------------------------------------------------- AMAZING PIPELINE STORIES by Dermot Cole Fairbanks: Epicenter Press 1997 Pg. 118: ...$1,100 a week for working "seven tens," seven days a week, ten hours a day on the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. Pg. 124: In some quarters, R&R was known as "I&I," meaning "Intoxication and Intercourse." ------------------------------------------------------------- ALASKA DICTIONARY AND PRONUNCIATION GUIDE by Jan O'Meara 155 pages, paperback Homer, Alaska: Wizard Works A nice book. I'm short of time on this computer. Let me know if you want a copy at $11.95. Pg. 3: AG LAND (Agricultural Land--ed.) Pg. 5: ALASKA TUXEDO--Slack and jacket ensemble of wool whipcord, somewhat resembling a heavy-duty leisure suit... Pg. 5: ALASKAN HIGH KICK... Pg. 12: ATHABASKAN... (OED?--ed.) Pg. 13: AVALANCHE CHUTE... Pg. 15: BANANA BELT... Pg. 16: BARN DOOR--Slang term for extremely large HALIBUT, generally larger than 200 pounds; sometimes also called a SOAKER. Pg. 20: BEAR PAWS--Rather stubby type of SNOWSHOE, rounded on both ends... Gotta go! 1988 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:17:26 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:17:26 -0700 Subject: Bergy Bits, Growlers, PIGs, I&I; Alaska Dictionary (1988) In-Reply-To: <585FE030.6DBB7191.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ALASKA DICTIONARY AND PRONUNCIATION GUIDE > by Jan O'Meara > 155 pages, paperback > Homer, Alaska: Wizard Works > > Pg. 12: ATHABASKAN... (OED?--ed.) > In OED. Variant spelling of Athapascan, -paskan. Earliest cite is 1776. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:17:39 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:17:39 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany >> From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:29:55 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:29:55 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. > >In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > ><< On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >>has retained its slang categorization. > >Works for me. > >Bethany >> A number of years ago, I bought a reprint of a late 18th or early 19th century book of London "argot" (or "slang"--it's at home, so I can't check). While quite a number of its entries, understandably, seemed quite dated, some weren't. One that I recall offhand was "pig" for policeman. Alice From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:39:45 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:39:45 EDT Subject: POT as a "standard" Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:56:00 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: << Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. >> Interesting data. But it seems to me that all this merely demonstrates that MARIJUANA is the standard term and POT and GRASS are slang terms of varying quantities of use and levels of informality; though both are widely known and used, POT is more frequent and is to some degree the preferred informal term. Just what does it mean to say that a word "is making its way into standard American English"? From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:41:47 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:41:47 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 5:31:38 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: << One that I recall offhand was "pig" for policeman. >> though that may be an accidental rebirth rather than a continuous transmission From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:51:12 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:51:12 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >In a message dated 7/1/02 5:31:38 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > ><< One that I recall offhand was "pig" >for policeman. >> > >though that may be an accidental rebirth rather than a continuous transmission Of course...But still... Alice From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 21:53:15 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:53:15 -0700 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an > old TV show?) It's a term commonly found in sci-fi, from 1966. See http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf.shtml. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 1 22:01:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:01:54 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I believe that "cunt," in use since at least c. 1230, is still considered slang. "Cool" goes back to only 1948 and "dope" to 1851, according to the OED. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the oldest surviving slang How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 22:19:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:19:47 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000f01c22138$5ea08ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Good work. Now we have something to work on. A difficulty: is "grass" older than "pot" (and on its way out), rather than "slangier"? dInIs > > When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and >> "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world >> no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). > >Guilty as charged regarding flying by the seat of my pants, but I would >substitute "personal experience" for "personal feelings." It is a judgment >based on how I've encountered the use of the terms, not on what I would like >them to be. > >But you've challenged me to justify this judgment... > >Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, while "grass >marijuana" gets you only some 38,900. This is probably a pretty good >indicator of the relative popularity of the two terms. > >Searching in NY Times over the last week (24 Jun-1 Jul), turns up 14 >articles containing the word "marijuana." There are two articles containing >the word "pot" in the drug sense, one a letter to the editor and the other >an excerpt from a novel. There are no uses of "grass" in the drug sense for >the same period (lots of articles about Wimbledon though). > >A similar search in the Washington Post also turns up 14 articles with >"marijuana." None for "pot" or "grass." > >AP has some 20 articles with "marijuana" (that number is rough because AP >posts articles to the wire multiple times and I may have miscounted). It has >2 with "pot;" one uses it in a headline, the other in a direct quote. > >CNN.com has six articles with "marijuana" for the same period. It uses the >drug sense of "pot" in two articles; CNN doesn't use quotation marks or >otherwise indicate that it's a slang term. Evidently, CNN has a different >editorial policy regarding use of the term than the other three. > >Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news >articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang >term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. > >Looking at Salon.com, which provides a more general commentary and language >use than the strictly editorially supervised news services, we find a total >of 1528 articles online with "marijuana" (no date restriction on the search, >so you can't compare frequency of appearance with the above news sources). >Of these, 1197 use the word "pot," and only 48 use the term "grass." Salon >does not use quotation marks around "pot" or otherwise indicate that it is a >slang term. > >Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its >way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 22:20:56 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:20:56 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about "booze"? dInIs >>on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > > >> > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >>> terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >>> decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >>> categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and >> > slang usage. > >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 22:30:48 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:30:48 -0700 Subject: fabling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This came in on one of my husbands psych lists: >Just got back from an evaluation at detention and gave wisc III. >In response to vocabulary substest: FABLE. kid says lying and I >asked to explain and he says: >It is like when you are fabling .....and explained that this mean lying. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 1 22:50:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:50:48 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000501c22149$b4553f10$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 02:53:15PM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an > > old TV show?) > > It's a term commonly found in sci-fi, from 1966. See > http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf.shtml. Or use the permanent address for linking, http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 22:55:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:55:03 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part two Message-ID: Pg. 21: BERING, VITUS; BETHEL; B.I.A.; BIDARKA, BAIDARKA; BILLIKIN Pg. 22: BLACK GOLD; BLACK ICE; BLANKET TOSS; B.L.M.; BLUBBER Pg. 24: BOAR--Male BEAR; BORE TIDE, BOROUGH. Pg. 25: BOTTOMFISH; BOWHEAD WHALE; BREAK-UP Pg. 27: BRISTOL BAY; BROWNIE--Brown BEAR; BULL; BULL COOK--Combination janitor, caretaker, handyman, and cook's helper in remote construction or timber camps; BUNNY BOOTS; BUSH Pg. 28: BUSH CAUCUS--Coalition of Alaska NATIVE politicians...; BUOY; CABIN FEVER; CACHE Pg. 30: CALVE; CAMP ROBBER; CANDLEFISH--Another name for HOOLIGAN...; CANNERY; CARIBOU; CAT SKINNER--Slang term for a Caterpillar tractor driver... Pg. 33: CHAIN; CHEECHAKO; CHICKEN; CHILKAT; CHILKOOT PASS/TRAIL Pg. 35: CHINOOK; CHIRIKOF, LT. ALEXEI; CHITINA; CHUGACH; CHUM Pg. 37 CHUTE (shoot); CLAN; CLEAR-CUTTING; COHO Pg. 39: COLUMBIA GLACIER; CONSERVATIONIST; COOK INLET; CORDOVA; CORE SAMPLE Pg. 40: CORK; CORN SNOW; COW; CRITICAL HABITAT; CUB--Immature BEAR; DALL Pg. 42: DALTON HIGHWAY, DAWSON; DELTA BARLEY PROJECT; DENA'INA; DENALI Pg. 45: DEVELOPER; DEVIL'S CLUB; DEW (doo) LINE; DILLINGHAM; DIOMEDE ISLANDS Pg. 47: DIP NETTING--Type of SUBSISTENCE fishing...; DOG BOX; DOG SALMON--Another name for CHUM salmon...; DOLLY VARDEN--Sea-run trout...; DOUGLAS Pg. 48: DREDGE; DRIFTER; DRILLING RIG; D-2 LANDS; DUNGIE--Dungeness crab...; DUTCH HARBOR--ALEUTIAN ISLAND Pg. 49: EAGLE; EAR PULL; EAR WEIGHT; EGAN, WILLIAM A>; EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE Pg. 50: ELMENDORF AIR FORCE BASE; ESKIMO; ESKIMO ICE CREAM--Confection popular with NATIVES, made from a mixture of berries, seal oil or other fat and snow whipped together, sometimes with sugar added; called akutak in YUPIK; ESKIMO OLYMPICS Pg. 51: EYAK; FAIRBANKS; FIREWEED Pg. 52: FISH BURNER--Nickname for a dog, so called because rural NATIVES and other owners of sled dogs often feed their animals large quantities of dried fish; FISH AND FEATHERS--Nickname for federal and state fish and wildlife management agencies; usually used pejoratively; FISH AND GAME; FISH AND WILDLIFE; FISH TRAP--Now outlawed device once used by canneries to catch millions of SALMON... Pg. 53: FISH WHEEL; FLARING; FLOAT; FORAKER; FORGET-ME-NOT; FORT GREELEY Pg. 55: FORT RICHARDSON; FORT WAINWRIGHT; FOURTH AVENUE; FREEZE-UP; FROST HEAVE--A break or bump in the road...; FRY Pg. 56: FUR RONDY; GANGLINE; GEE--Command to dog team to turn right; GIANT; GILL NETTER Pg. 57: GLACIER; GLACIER BAY; GLARE ICE; GOLD PAN; GOLD RUSH Pg. 58: GOOD FRIDAY EARTHQUAKE; GRAYLING; GRAZING LEASE; GREAT LAND; GRIZZLY; GRUBSTAKE Pg. 59: GRUENING, ERNEST; GUILLOTINE; GULF COAST; GUSSUK--ESKIMO term for a caucasian, sometimes used disparagingly, said to originate from the Russian word "Cossack"; HAIDA (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 23:10:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:10:17 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part three Message-ID: Pg. 61: HAINES; HALIBUT; HARDHEAD--Affectionate term for commercial fishermen of Norwegian ancestry...; HATCHERY; HAUL ROAD; HAW--Command to sled dog team to turn left. Pg. 62: HICKEL, WALTER J.: HICKEL HIGHWAY; HIGH BUSH CRANBERRY; HIGHLINER--Term used for commercial fishermen who catch the largest quantities of fish...; HOMER; HOMESTEAD Pg. 63: HOOK; HOOK AND RELEASE; HOPE; HOOLIGAN; HUMMOCK; HUMPBACK WHALE Pg. 65: HUMPY; HUNDRED-MILE-AN-HOUR-TAPE--Duct tape...; HUSKY; HYPOTHERMIA; ICE CREEPERS--Spiked plates that attach to soles of boots... Pg. 67: ICE FIELD; ICE FOG; ICEWORM; IDITAROD Pg. 69: IGLOO; ILIAMNA; INSIDE PASSAGE; INTERIOR; INUIT Pg. 71: INUPIAT, INUPIAQ; IRISH LORD--An incredibly ugly, spiny fish...; JACKS--Young king SALMON that are not fully grown; JACKSON, SHELDON; JIG Pg. 73: JITNEY; JUNEAU; KACHEMAK; KAKE Pg. 74: KASHIM; KATMAI; KAYAK; KENAI; KETCHIKAN Pg. 75: KICKER--BUSH term for an outboard motor...; KING CRAB; KINGS; KISKA Pg. 76: KLISTER--Gooey, sticky substance spread on waxable NORDIC SKIS...; KLONDIKE; KNIK; KNUCKLE HOP; KODIAK Pg. 77: KOLOSH; KONIAG; KOTZEBUE; KUSKOKWIM; KUSPUK--ESKIMO woman's summer PARKA...; KVICHAK Pg. 78: LABRET; LAND DISPOSAL; LAND LOTTERY; LAND SWAP Pg. 79: LANDING STRIP; LEAD DOG; LIMITED ENTRY; LINE; LIVENGOOD; LONGEVITY BONUS Pg. 81: LONGLINER; LOW BUSH CRANBERRY; LOWER 48; MALASPINA Pg. 82: MALEMUTE, MALAMUTE; MARINE HIGHWAY; MARINE MAMMAL; MATANUSKA Pg. 84: MATANUSKA VALLEY COLONY; MAT-SU; McKINLEY Pg. 85: METLAKATLA; MIDNIGHT SUN; MILEPOST; MILITARY RESERVATION Pg. 86: MOOSE; MOOSE GOOSER--Alaska equivalent of the "cow catcher" on railroad engines in the LOWER 48; slang term for the Alaska Railroad...: MOSQUITO Pg. 88: MOUNT AUGUSTINE; MOUNT FORAKER; MOUNT MARATHON; MUD BOOTS; MUDFLATS Pg. 89: MUKLUK; MUKLUK TELEGRAPH; MUKTUK; MURRES; MUSH; MUSHER Pg. 90: MUSKEG; MUSK OX; NATIONAL PETROLEUM RESERVE; NATIVE; NATIVE CORPORATION Pg. 91: NENANA ICE CLASSIC; NEW ARCHANGEL; NIKISKI or NIKISHKA; NIKOLAEVSK; 1991; NINILCHIK Pg. 92: NOME; NORDIC SKIS; NORTHERN LIGHTS; NORTH POLE; NORTH SLOPE Pg. 93: NORTHWEST PASSAGE; OLD BELIEVER--Member of the sect of RUSSIAN ORTHODOX Christians... Pg. 95: ONE-FOOT HIGH KICK; ONE-HAND REACH; ONION DOME; OOGRUK; OOSIK; OPEN-TO-ENTRY LAND; ORCA Pg. 98: OUTSIDE; PACK ICE; PAD Pg. 99: PALMER; PANCAKE ICE; PANHANDLE; PARKA; PARKA SQUIRREL Pg. 100: PARKS HIGHWAY; PASS; PENINSULA; PERMAFROST Pg. 102: PERMANENT FUND; PEROK--ALso called "piroshki" and "perogue"; a fish pie or turnover made with rice...; PERSONAL USE; PETERSBURG; PET FOUR Pg. 103: PINKS; PIONEER; PIPELINE; PLACER MINING (Perhaps to be continued later--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 00:22:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:22:33 EDT Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: In a message dated 07/01/2002 6:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > How about "booze"? > > dInIs > > >>on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > > >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that > >has retained its slang categorization. OED2 has "booze" from 1732. No, it is not a Kentucky term. That beats Dennis Preston's favorite "cracker" (or "corn-cracker") which is 1766, "redneck" (quite late at 1893), and "white trash" (1831). 1833 "The slaves themselves entertain the very highest contempt for white servants, whom they designate as "poor white trash". - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 2 01:20:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:20:42 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0400 7/1/02, Baker, John wrote: > I believe that "cunt," in use since at least c. 1230, is >still considered slang. "Cool" goes back to only 1948 and "dope" to >1851, according to the OED. > >John Baker > Well, RHHDAS does have "cool" back the 1930's, but that's still not 1851, so I yield the point. I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that classification. With "dope" meaning 'idiot'--no such demur is possible. Larry From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 02:24:12 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:24:12 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: Why wouldn't this work: JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, societal, etc. barriers while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. For example, in the marijuana-smoking community, you can find the very old, the very young, black, white, male, female, etc. all calling a $10 amount of drugs a "dime bag". Therefore, that is jargon. However, it's been my experience that the older set use "grass" more and the younger set use "pot". Therefore, those are slang. And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't think 5-0 use of drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of their group; it's like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as slang for DMA, if that were true, then aspirin would be slang for acetylsalicylic acid, which I would say it is not. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . (and I just figured out what the original subject line meant!!!) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 02:38:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:38:12 -0400 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: According to one theory (Bert Kelly), "jazz" was spoken in Alaska around the turn of the century. I've looked before, and I looked at the Valdez newspapers today. I didn't find it. 10 February 1917, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, "A CHEECHACO'S VIEWS ON ALASKA," pg. 8, col. 4: Slang is almost unknown, but the necessities of a novel situation have of course led them to adopt new words unknown in the East, although some are used else where. A "sourdough" is an old Alaskan; a poke, an old English word; a "cheechaco" is a newcomer; a "Cywash" is an Indian. This word is a corruption of the French "sauvage." To "mush" is to travel on foot. This is derived from the French verb "marcher." An obedient dog, when told to mush will leave the premises. (...) 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: _"ICE WORM"_ _WIGGLE STEP_ _TYPICAL ALASKAN DANCE EVOLVED_ _AT WHITE HORSE SOON_ _TO BE THE RAGE_ Whitehorse, March 16. With the angle worm wriggle, the grizzly bear dance, the turkey trot and other risque dances, the rage outside since many of the soiurdoughs last saw an electric car, a typical Alaskan dance has evolved here. The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. 28 November 1917, VALDEZ DAILY PROSPECTOR, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 photo caption: "M-M-M! Turkey for Thanksgiving!" (See "mmm" in ADS-L archives--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 2 02:48:37 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:48:37 -0400 Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak Message-ID: Just quick little quote of copspeak, because it has one of my favorite copspeak-type attributes: http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-153796020020701-040738.html "We did have a home invasion that occured here on the 28th just a few days ago. It was robbery type incident inside the house. Obviously having another incident this soon, possibly they are related," Maitland police Lt. Gary Calhoun said. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 06:53:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 02:53:26 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part four Message-ID: Pg. 104: PLATFORM; PLUG-IN; PORTAGE; POT--Metal and twine contraption used for catching shrimp and crab; POTLATCH Pg. 105: POWDER; PREDATOR CONTROL; PRESERVATIONIST; PRIBILOFS; PRINCE WILLIAM SOUND Pg. 107: PROMYSHLENNIKI;PROVE UP; PUDHOE BAY; PTARMIGAN Pg. 109: PUFFIN; PURSE SEINE; PUSHKI; QIVIUT Pg. 110: RAILBELT; RAVEN; RAZOR CLAMS; REDOUBT Pg. 112: REDS--Short, plural name for red SALMON...; REFUGE; REGIONAL CORPORATION; REINDEER; RICHARDSON, FORT Pg. 115: RIDGE; RIG; ROADHOUSE; ROCKER; ROE--Fish eggs; RONDY; ROOKERY; ROUGHNECK--Laborer on a DRILLING RIG Pg. 117: RUSSIAN-AMERICAN COMPANY; RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH; RUSSIAN VILLAGE; SALMON Pg. 118: SALTERY, SALTRY; SANDHILL CRANE; SCRIMSHAW; SEINER Pg. 120: SELDOVIA; SEISMIC TRAIL; SET; SET NETTER Pg. 121: SEWARD; SEWARD'S DAY; SHAMAN; SHELIKOFF; SHOE PACS Pg. 122: SILVERS; SITKA; SIX-PACK; SIWASH; SKAGWAY Pg. 123: SKATES; SKIFF; SKILAK; SKOOKUM; SLED DOG; SLEEPING LADY; SLIME LINE Pg. 124: SLIP; SLOPE; SLUICE BOX; SNAG; SNOW BIRD--Seasonal worker...; SNOW BLINDNESS; SNOW CRAB; SNOW-GO--Alternate name for snowmachine Pg. 126: SNOWSHOE; SOAKER--Extremely large HALIBUT...; SOAPY SMITH; SOCKED IN; SOCKEYE; SOLDOTNA Pg. 127: SOLSTICE; SORELS; SOUND; SOURDOUGH Pg. 128: SOUTHCENTRAL; SOUTHEAST; SOVEREIGNTY; SOW--Female BEAR; SPAWNING Pg. 129: SPENARD DIVORCE--Spouse-icide, the quick and dirty but legally and ethically incorrect way to end a marriage and rid oneself of a mate by doing them in...; SPILL; SPIT; SPOTTER; SPRUCE HEN Pg. 131: SQUAW CANDY--Hard and chewy, dried or smoke SALMON that resembles jerky in texture; relished as a snack by people and dogs; STARRING; STACK ROBBER; STARTER; STATE FERRY; STATEHOOD; STATE TROOPERS; STEAMERS--Little-neck clams...; STEELHEAD--Sea-run rainbow trout... (Pg. 132 is a cartoon of a "STATE FAIRY" for the "STATE FERRY" definition on Pg. 131--ed.) Pg. 133: STELLER, GEORG; STIKINE; SUBSISTENCE; SUBSURFACE RIGHTS Pg. 135: SUNDOGS; SURIMI--Fish paste made primarily from BOTTOMFISH...; SUSITNA; SWANSON RIVER; SWEAT EQUITY Pg. 137: SWING DOGS; TAIGA; TALKEETNA; TANAINA Pg. 138: TANANA; TANNER CRAB; TANNING' TERMINATION DUST--Cold, white stuff that falls from the sky and signals the end of Alask'a all-too-short summer...: THOUSAND MILE WAR Pg. 139: TIDAL FLAT; TIDE BROOK; TIMBER; TIN CAN--Slang term for a metal, as opposed to a wooden, boat; TLINGIT; TOE-PINCHING--Slang for trapping...: TOK Pg. 141: TONGASS; TOTEM; TRANS-ALASKA PIPELINE; TRAPLINE Pg. 143: TRAWL; TROLL; TSIMPSHIAN; TSUNAMI; TUNDRA; TURNAGAIN Pg. 146: TUSTUMENA; TWO-FOOT HIGH KICK; TYONEK; ULU--ESKIMO woman's knife...; UMIAK Pg. 147: VALDEZ; VENIAMINOV; VOLCANO Pg. 148: WAINRIGHT; WASILLA; WEATHERED IN; WHEEL DOGS; WHISKEY JACK--Nickname for the Canada Jay. See also CAMP ROBBER; WHITE ALICE--Communications system... Pg. 149: WHITE KNUCKLE SPECIAL--Rough commuter airline flight...; WHITE OUT--Winter weather condition...; WHITE PASS; WHITE SOCKS--Irritating little biting flies...; WHITTIER Pg. 152: WILDLIFE REFUGE; WILLIWAW; WIND CHILL FACTOR; WOOLY MAMMOTH; WORLD ESKIMO INDIAN OLYMPICS; WRANGELL Pg. 154: YAKUTAT; YUKON Pg. 155: YUPIK From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 2 09:26:03 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:26:03 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: o| |o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that |o| >has retained its slang categorization. Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And then there is it's kin "way kewl." rhk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Jul 2 12:25:38 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:25:38 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Surely the ineffective respelling of "cool" as "kule" will help convince some that a phonetic representation is in order if we want to know what is going on. I suspect (but cannot be sure) that the "kule" spelling attempts to offer the same indication of a glide (as in the "kyule" respelling), but that does not capture what, in fact, the magazine respelling does ("kewl") which to me clearly points to the fronting of /u/, a phenomenon sweeping North America. On the other hand, what is missing in this notice is the pervasive laxing of /u/ in this lexical item (for speakers who do not show general conflation of /u/ and /U/ before /l/. Many younger Michigan speakers, for example, have /kul/ for the temperature but /kUl/ for the attitude. (We actually teased this distinction out in a vowel-matching task we gave lots of Michigan undergrads several years ago in which nearly all matched the vowel of "rule" to the word "soon," but many matched "cool" to the vowel of "good." dInIs (too old to front) >o| >|o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >|o| >has retained its slang categorization. > >Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the >west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing >magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it >pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And >then there is it's kin "way kewl." > >rhk -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 13:45:02 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:45:02 EDT Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: > The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." > Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very > bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. The "ice-worm" is a hoax, made famous by a poem by Robert Service, entitled somethiing like "The Iceworm Cocktail". I have no idea if Service invented the hoax or merely wrote about it. - Jim Landau From slangman at PACBELL.NET Tue Jul 2 14:02:02 2002 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:02:02 -0700 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: "Once again, fact proves fiction true. Ice worms do exist, though the wags who created the mythical worm in Dawson at the turn of the century almost certainly did not know it. The real worms (Mesenchytraeus solifugus and several other species) are about three-quarters of an inch long and live near the surface of glaciers, feeding on airborne pollen and spores." Tabbertt, Russell: Dictionary of Alaskan English Juneau: Denali Press (1991) Page 264 "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 7/1/02 10:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM > writes: > > > 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: > > > The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." > > Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very > > bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. > > The "ice-worm" is a hoax, made famous by a poem by Robert Service, entitled > somethiing like "The Iceworm Cocktail". I have no idea if Service invented > the hoax or merely wrote about it. > > - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 2 14:59:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:59:07 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: <3D1F7433.DFB91D22@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: #TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable #of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares #please say PYE- not PAY-). Well, I seem to have deleted the exchange in which someone pointed out that PYE- could be the beginning of "Pierre", and Tom replied, iirc, that "Pierre" is not an English word, so I have to go by memory. This "system" of respelling, then, is apparently only useable for native and nativized words of American English, for some value of "nativized". How is the naive user to determine the boundary? Or is this method intended to be used actively only by experts, and only passively by others, such as users of a dictionary? How *would* you represent the pronunciations of "Pierre" and other words that combine AEng phonemes but transgress AEng phonotactics? Or are they simply excluded from consideration? I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jul 2 14:59:31 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:59:31 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rick H Kennerly said: >o| >|o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >|o| >has retained its slang categorization. > >Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the >west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing >magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it >pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And >then there is it's kin "way kewl." > Seven or eight years ago, I heard a New York based radio ad (for Tasty Kakes or some such) in which "kewl" and "cool" were semantically and phonologically contrasted; a dad who was trying to be with it said that the object being advertised was /kuwl/, and his supercilious teenage son corrected him "ice is /kuwl/, $OBJECT is /kyl/". (And, yes, $OBJECT is an *orthographic* example of computer-geek argot, I would think...) Alice From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 2 15:27:02 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:27:02 -0700 Subject: (was Re: the oldest surviving slang) Message-ID: i have now seen the spelling used *both* for the fronted-/u/ pronunciation (now spreading throughout north america, as dInIs points out) *and* for the spread-lip-/u/ pronunciation (stereotypical surfer-dude, socal smile-when- you-produce-that-vowel, variant). the spelling seems to convey 'something noticeable done with the lips', but that thing could be either rounding or spreading. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 16:30:10 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:30:10 EDT Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:48:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: > Just quick little quote of copspeak, because it has one of my favorite > copspeak-type attributes: > > http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-153796020020701-040738.html > > "We did have a home invasion that occured here on the 28th just a few days > ago. It was robbery type incident inside the house. Obviously having another > incident this soon, possibly they are related," Maitland police Lt. Gary > Calhoun said. Not copspeak. Just an example of bureaucratese that happened to be describing an incident in the jurisdiction of the police department. Or perhaps legalese---the department's legal counsel might have told the department not to describe something as a "robbery" or a "burglary" until the grand jury returned an indictment, because local defense lawyers might accuse the police of jumping to conclusions or something. The phrase "robbery-type incident" sounds like something a cautious department counsel might require. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 16:55:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:55:47 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:24:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TlhovwI at AOL.COM writes: > Why wouldn't this work: > > JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, societal, etc. > barriers > while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. You are claiming that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. By my definition of "jargon", they are not. Some of the people in this thread who disagree with my definition of "jargon" also consider that a jargon (whatever it is) can easily contain words that are obviously slang as well as words that obviously are not. > And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't think 5-0 use of > drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of their group; it's > like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French > phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). I'm interested in your use of "5-0" to mean police. As far as I know, that term comes from the title of the television show "Hawaii 5-0". Is it in general use? > And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as slang for DMA, if > that were true, then aspirin would be slang for acetylsalicylic acid, which > would say it is not. "aspirin" is not slang. It was originally a trademark, which US courts long ago ruled had become generic. The original trademark owner was a German company called Bayer (something like Bayer A. G.). The American company which presently uses the name "Bayer" was originally the US branch of Bayer A. G., but received its independence from the German ownership thanks to World War I. - James A. Landau From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 2 17:33:18 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:33:18 -0400 Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak In-Reply-To: <17c.a80c2f3.2a532f12@aol.com> Message-ID: |o| Not copspeak. Just an example of bureaucratese that happened to be |o| describing an incident in the jurisdiction of the police department. Actually, home invasion is a category of reportable crime on the FBI's UCR, uniform crime report. This report is made by all jurisdiction to the FBI on a regular basis so that the Department of Justice can track crime. From time to time crimes are added or redefined, depending on what the feds want to track (hate crimes were added recently). These are not legal definitions but working definitions for classification and tracking purposes used to smooth the various legal definitions used across the country. A home invasion is a crime committed by outsiders forcibly entering a home while someone is in the residence. There are subcategories such as Home Invasion: murder, Home Invasion: robbery, Home Invasion: assault. This is to differentiate between murders committed by someone invited into or living in the house and those done by outsiders forcing their way in, for instance. There is no Home Invasion: burglary, however, since burglary implies (in a legal sense) no victim present. If the victim is present, it's a robbery. rhk From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 17:43:35 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:43:35 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: Not exactly... >>You are claiming that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. By my >>definition of "jargon", they are not. Some of the people in this thread who >>disagree with my definition of "jargon" also consider that a jargon (whatever >>it is) can easily contain words that are obviously slang as well as words >>that obviously are not. I would not, actually, say that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. I tend to believe that jargon is a type of SLANG, but with much wider boundaries group-wise and smaller boundaries society-wise. A dime bag may always be a dime bag, but it's still "slangy" in my mind. But from here, the point gets cyclical. >>I'm interested in your use of "5-0" to mean police. As far as I know, that >>term comes from the title of the television show "Hawaii 5-0". Is it in >>general use? Yes, I think this is general slang. I've been running into it (and using it) since the mid-90's. I'm not sure if everyone knows that it came from the TV show or not, but yeah. And concerning aspirin... that's exactly why I wouldn't call "ecstasy" slang for MDMA. The slang term is either X (south) or E (east) in my experience, but I would definitely call "ecstasy" standard. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jul 2 18:38:34 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:38:34 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] Message-ID: Mark, This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. TOM PAIKEDAY (more at website below in preparation) www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > > #TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > #of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > #please say PYE- not PAY-). > > Well, I seem to have deleted the exchange in which someone pointed out > that PYE- could be the beginning of "Pierre", and Tom replied, iirc, > that "Pierre" is not an English word, so I have to go by memory. This > "system" of respelling, then, is apparently only useable for native and > nativized words of American English, for some value of "nativized". How > is the naive user to determine the boundary? Or is this method intended > to be used actively only by experts, and only passively by others, such > as users of a dictionary? How *would* you represent the pronunciations > of "Pierre" and other words that combine AEng phonemes but transgress > AEng phonotactics? Or are they simply excluded from consideration? ANSWER #1: Our orthographic respelling system (there's a full explanation in the Guide to the User's® Webster which I am appending hereto) works best with native and nativized words of AmE, as you put it. We try to do rough justice to non-English words such as "danseuse" (dahn.SOOZ), "loch" (LOK, LOKH), Pierre (PYAIR) - "rough" because many questions have to be left unanswered, like, Is that (PYE- as in "pie" or a labialized "p"?). On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the popular user, not for academics. In a couple of dictionaries of Cdn English I compiled in the Sixties, I used a simplified IPA, i.e. English letters for the most part plus 10 IPA symbols: c, s, z (with haceks in "chip, ship, measure"), the usual symbols in "thin," "this," and "sing") and u (with superscript "i", in "debut"), o (with superscript "e", in "danseuse"), reversed and inverted (without straining my back) "c" with superscript "n", in "bon mot"), and k (with superscript "h" in "loch" etc.). By 1980, I had decided this was too much of a strain on the average English user (one can't please both anglophones and francophones) and went on to develop the present keyless system. > > I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of > pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that > there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and > transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples > simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." > There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of > "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of > "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the > option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with > spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for [u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). (It could be argued that these are words which our sixth grader should know, but one can't be too nice). We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in "pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic systems used in dictionaries. There is no "naive user" for us, if I understand you right, but only one "tutored" to the elementary level. The "naive user" concept may be required for scientists working with mechanical devices using cut and dry (0/1) distinctions. I am no expert in spelling-to-sound work or the innards of computers (although it was my fascination with what even early computers could do to translate spelling into sound that made me purchase my first computer in 1980). > > Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? > ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of a midsize dictionary. > BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal > neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large >From the User Guide to The User's® Webster INTRODUCTION: The User's® Webster is designed for use without explanatory notes, pronunciation keys, and such aids. The user should be able to pick up the dictionary cold and find the desired information if it is within the scope of the book. However, a few tips on some of the main features of this dictionary are offered below. [SNIP] V. PRONUNCIATION SYSTEM (a) SYLLABLE DIVISION: As a general rule, a syllable division is made: (1) after the vowel if the vowel is long, diphthongized, or unstressed, the resulting syllable being called an "open" syllable; (2) after the consonant if the vowel is short and carries a stress, which results in a "closed" syllable. Examples: a.back, ab.a.cus, ab.ra.ca.dab.ra ... ze.ro, Zo.ro.as.tri.an, in which the underlined syllables [lost here, sorry] are closed, the others being open. This is only the most general of the rules of syllabication, but it is useful to know it explicitly. (b) The user is assumed to have acquired a familiarity with the basic sound-spelling patterns of English, as in the most common words of the language. No pronunciation is indicated for sounds whose spelling is such that only one pronunciation is normally possible. Such are: VOWELS: The vowel sounds of: at, sail, lake, air; bed, day; big, deep, deer, hide, bye, fire; on, cause, law, more; bone, oh, how, our, boy, oil; ah, but, poor, cure; uh, burn. Vowel sounds in certain phonetic contexts or positions: (1) words ending in -oal, -oat, -old, -olk, -olt, etc. have the long "o" or diphthong; (2) words and syllables ending in -ete, -ew, -ool, -oon, -oop, -oose, -ooth, -ude, -uke, -ume, -ute, etc. have long vowels, with the exception of wool; (3) words and syllables ending in -ee, -o, and -oo are long or diphthongized. CONSONANTS: The initial consonant sounds of: bad, can, chair, dog, fat, go, ghost, guess, guy, hat, just, keep, lake, make, name, page, quick, red, same, take, the, thin, very, wait, what, yes, zoo. These and other rules of English pronunciation are taken as implicitly known to users who have attained the primary-school (Grade 8) level of proficiency in reading and speaking. However, some pronunciations are made more explicit by additional helps, as in (awl.THOH, "TH" as in "the"), (ES.theet, "th" as in "thin"), (uh.LOOF, long "OO"), (buh.BOOSH.kuh, short or long "OO"), and (uh.DUCE, rhyme: produce). (c) ACCENTUATION Several levels of stress may be noted in English words when they are studied in isolation. Thus, com.mu.ni.ty could be analyzed as having its stresses distributed on the basis of relative force in this order of syllables: 3-1-4-2. In actual use, however, one rarely hears the main stress placed on the second syllable. In com.mu.ni.ca.tion, the main stress is supposed to be on the fourth syllable, but it is frequently placed on the second. Sentence stress partly explains this variation between what is correct when words are studied in isolation and how words are pronounced in actual, continuous speech. Most dictionaries routinely indicate a primary and a secondary stress for words of three syllables or more, as in ac.cen.tu.ate which is shown with a primary stress on the second syllable and a secondary stress on the last. The User's® Webster uses a more simplified system of accentuation, as explained below. (d) TO READ OFF THE PRONUNCIATIONS 1. A stressed syllable is shown in capitals. 2. A word of two syllables is assumed to have its stress on the first syllable if it is left unmarked for stress, as milk.shake (MILK.shake) whose accentuation and pronunciation are taken as self-explanatory. 3. In multisyllabic words, only the main stress is normally indicated, secondary stresses being considered variable, as explained above. 4. A second stress, however, is indicated using capitals when there are more than two syllables preceding the main stress and the syllable with the greater stress may be in doubt. Thus, u.til.i.tar.i.an (yoo.TIL.uh.TAIR.ee.un) is shown with the second syllable in capitals as well as the fourth. This kind of double stressing is normally not required when all but one of the syllables have neutral vowels, as in et.y.mo.log.i.cal (et.uh.muh.LOJ.uh.cul), in which only the first syllable has a full vowel and which, therefore, is the only other syllable besides the fourth that may be pronounced with a stress. The fullness of the vowel should give the syllable any stress that is required for good enunciation. 5. The letter group (uh) always stands for the unstressed neutral vowel, also called schwa, as in the first syllable of a.bove (uh.BUV), the middle syllable of syl.la.ble (SIL.uh.bul), and the last syllable of i.de.a (eye.DEE.uh). 6. Letter groups with (u) plus another consonant, as in ob.tain (ub.TAIN), ran.dom (RAN.dum), rang.er (RAIN.jur), ray.ment (RAY.munt), etc. are also normally pronounced with a neutral vowel if they are not shown stressed. Exceptions would be when a syllable becomes more prominent or gets a secondary stress because of its existence as a separate word. Thus, "-nut," the second syllable of do.nut (DOH.nut), could be pronounced either with a neutral sound or as if it rhymed with nut. But the second syllable of rib.bon (RIB.un) cannot rhyme with bun because "-bon" is not a word or word element. See also asset, convent, despot, product, shogun, slogan, and surplus. 7. The letter group (zh) is used for the sound of the "s" in measure, usual, vision, etc.; the sound of "g" in beige, regime, etc.; the sound of "j" in jabot, joual, etc.; and the sound of "z" in azure, seizure, etc. 8. All other pronunciations should be read using the most common English sounds of the syllables used in the respelling. Thus, live.long (LIV.long), live.ly (LIVE. lee), rind (RINED), etc. 9. When an alternative pronunciation or the pronunciation of a derivative is shown in abbreviated form, as in mil.i.tar.i.ly (-TAIR.uh.lee), the full pronunciation should be read as (mil.uh.TAIR.uh.lee) based on the previous word mil.i.tar.y (MIL.uh.tair.ee). As explained above, the relative force between the stresses of the first and third syllables of a word like mil.i.tar.i.ly is of mainly academic importance to the dictionary user. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 2 19:02:41 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:02:41 -0500 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: Barry, Would you have the reference to Bert Kelly's mention that "jazz" was spoken in Alaska around the turn of the century? Where did you encounter it? I'm curious about what prompted this theory of his, and even it turns out to be baseless (as seems likely), I'd like to include his item in the bibliography on the term "jazz." Jerry >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:38:12 -0400 >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska >Comments: cc: ASMITH1946 at aol.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > According to one theory (Bert Kelly), "jazz" was spoken in Alaska >around the turn of the century. I've looked before, and I looked at >the Valdez newspapers today. I didn't find it. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 2 20:43:27 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:43:27 -0700 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: <168.fec1335.2a5268cc@aol.com> Message-ID: > Why wouldn't this work: > > JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, > societal, etc. > barriers > while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. I would buy that jargon cuts across age. It cuts across class in as much as different classes are represented in the group that uses the jargon (but legal jargon, for example, would tend to be the province of the upper middle class). But terms that cut across societal boundaries are called Standard English. I'm not sure what you mean by "dialectal," but if you mean regional then it is not necessarily true. I offer the following two definitions: Jargon: a specialized vocabulary predominately used within a profession, trade, or other activity with identifiable participants. Slang: an informal, nonstandard, nontechnical vocabulary composed chiefly of novel-sounding synonyms for standard words and phrases. [taken from RHHDAS] The two are not mutually exclusive. A term can be both slang and jargon (e.g., "bumsicle" is both slang and medical jargon). Note the "with identifiable participants" part of the jargon definition. I have given this a lot of thought, and have concluded that it is an essential part of the definition. If we wish to classify terms as jargon, we have to have some practical means of identifying those who are members of the group and those who are not. If we can't identify the group with some degree of precision, then we can't tell if use of the term is largely restricted to that group. This means that groups like the "marijuana-smoking community" can't have a jargon. Even if we came up with a strict definition of who potentially qualified (e.g., smoked more than 5 ounces in the last five years), there is no evident way to identify members and exclude nonmembers. On the other hand, we can have a prison jargon because convicts and correctional officers constitute a readily identifiable population. It may seem arbitrary, but it is essential for practical application of the definition. I use "activity" rather than "group" in order to exclude regional, ethnic, and class dialects from the definition of jargon. If someone can come up with a better term than "activity," I would appreciate it. (If a language is a dialect with an army, then a jargon is a slang with a journal.) > For example, in the marijuana-smoking community, you can find > the very old, > the very young, black, white, male, female, etc. all calling > a $10 amount of > drugs a "dime bag". Therefore, that is jargon. However, it's been my > experience that the older set use "grass" more and the > younger set use > "pot". Therefore, those are slang. This is a good example for the "identifiable participants" clause. My gut tells me that use of "dime bag" is largely restricted to marijuana smokers and would qualify as jargon, while "pot" is widely used outside that group and would not (but could still be slang). But for the life of me, I can't define a research project to validate my hunch. I can't identify the population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine what terms are used within and without that population. > And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't > think 5-0 use of > drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of > their group; it's > like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French > phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). A lot depends on your image of narcs. If your image of narcs conforms to "Dragnet," clearly the cops are not using drug slang as their own. But if your image of cops conforms to "Hill Street Blues" and "NYPD Blue," the cops use the terms as their own. Which image is more accurate is the question. I would think the latter is more accurate, but I don't really know. > And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as > slang for DMA, if > that were true, then aspirin would be slang for > acetylsalicylic acid, which I > would say it is not. Analogies like this aren't valid; usage doesn't follow logic. Each term must be evaluated independently. "Aspirin" is a standard term as it is a generally used term for the substance; "acetylsalicylic acid" is pharmacological jargon. The question is whether or not either term, "ecstasy" or "DMA," is generally used and qualifies as standard. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 2 21:11:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: <3D21F32A.B3B7C4EA@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: #This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are #interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. Thanks for the explanation. I now understand much better the context of this system. #On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the #popular user, not for academics. Clear enough, and agreed. -- Without quoting or remarking on your whole post, I'll agree that it's appropriate to that purpose, although definitely not for describing pronunciations on this list. [Mark M.] #> I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of #> pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that #> there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and #> transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples #> simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." #> There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of #> "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of #> "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the #> option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with #> spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. # #ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. #About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school #graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in #isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for #[u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford #American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. For a dictionary, "system for system's sake" may be an appropriate dismissal. For a speech recognition company, though, system is absolutely essential. We *had* to provide for users to say "Pierre" and "Khrushchev" (as both /'krus.CEv/ and /'kruS.CEv/, and maybe /kruS.COf/ as well -- C and S are c/s-hacek, E and O low-mid), and a whole slew of other non-English words and, especially, names. #We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous #phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either #long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we #say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). Ah. This "shoehorn", as exemplified below in your reply, is what I didn't recall seeing in the earlier discussion. Extranotational annotation, like mine above for "Khrushchev", can cover anything. In this case, you rely on it (appropriately, imho) to cover distinctions not made by the respelling. #We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, #like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no #indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in #"pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic #systems used in dictionaries. Agreed, these would be wholly excessive for your purpose. #> Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? #> #ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants #to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of #a midsize dictionary. My bad example. I meant the distinction between the nuclei, which is made by your annotations: suit SOOT (with long "oo") soot SOOT (with short "oo") -- yes? #> BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal #> neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? # #ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all #wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their #own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice #for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. Now, here's a problem. Discussion below, after the quote of your summary of principle. #We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can #with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising #academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I #hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no #offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could #go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. I understand your argument, and I suppose you're right about "most users". But presumably the reason your users consult the pronunciations is that they don't know how to pronounce a particular word. Your use of "normally" suggests that the cot/caught distinction is exceptional, so far outside the (descriptive) norm that you're justified in generally dismissing it. If a user speaks a dialect that maintains the distinction, how is she supposed to know from your merged respelling which vowel to use in an unfamiliar word? To take a more plausible example than "cot" and "caught", imagine a New York City high school junior looking up the unfamiliar words "sot" and "fraught" (more likely to be unfamiliar than the minimal example "sought"). The "o" respelling will tell her, misleadingly, that she should rhyme them. How is she to know otherwise? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 2 23:38:39 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:38:39 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I suppose that, as we have already seen, there is real room for a difference of opinion on just what is slang. In the case of "cunt," I think there's at least a good argument that it's slang for "vagina." (Historically, of course, "cunt" at one point was standard English, as demonstrated by its c. 1400 use in a medical textbook.) "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of "damn." If you take the position, implicit in some definitions, that slang requires an element of novelty, then neither word is slang. I suspect, though, that a firm novelty requirement would narrow the universe of slang down a little too much for comfort. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that classification. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 01:02:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:02:38 -0400 Subject: Iceberg categories; Alaskan speak; Burger Jim Message-ID: Greetings from Anchorage. I take a 5 p.m. flight home on Wednesday, July 3rd. I'll be back the morning of July 4th. Then, on July 6th, I fly to southern Germany, where my plane will collide with another plane in mid-air. (Where is this Landau guy when you need him?) --------------------------------------------------------------- ICEBERG CATEGORIES The State Ferry guy next to "PFD Otter" (How did otters survive all these years without PFDs?) showed me a book that defines icebergs: <3 feet brash ice 3-7 feet growler ice 7-15 feet bergy bits >15 feet iceberg If close enough that you can hear fizzing, it's called "bergy seltzer" or "ice seltzer." --------------------------------------------------------------- ALASKAN SPEAK FROMMER'S ALASKA 2002 has "An Alaska Glossary" on Page 450: breakup; bunny boots; cheechako; dry or damp (alcohol towns--ed.); Lower 48; Native; Native Corporation; (Pg. 451--ed.) oosik--The huge male penile bone of a walrus (Thanks for this useless info, Frommer's--ed.); Outside; PFD--Permanent Fund Dividend; pioneer; salmon; SOutheast; tsunami; village WHERE (ALASKA & THE YUKON) 2002/2003 has "SAY IT IN ALASKAN" on Page 21: Outside; Snowmachine; Rig; Cheechako; Sourdough; Kicker--...it's the outboard motor on your boat; "The lights are out"--...The aurora borealis; Midnight sun; Termination dust; The Bush (Sorry if both are pretty weak--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- BURGER JIM ("PRIDE OF ALASKA") About a block away from here in Anchorage is Burger Jim ("Pride of Alaska"). If you need more exact directions, well--it's next door to The New York Deli. Burger Jim adds avocado to the BLT for a BLTA (not BALT?). Today's special at the "Pride of Alaska" is "London Burger." A "London Burger" is a burger with Canadian bacon, American and Swiss cheese. --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. ALL THAT JAZZ: My "jazz" posts in the old ADS-L archive seem to be largely destroyed. Bert Kelly stated in his book (Vantage Press self-published, but cited by Peter Tamony) that he got the word "jazz" from San Francisco, but that "jazz" probably dates from Alaskan gold rush towns. Well, if the slang existed at all, it would have been the name of a saloon, or a mine, or even a town. "Jazz" is not there in Alaskan names, and it's not there in Alaskan literature, and now I didn't see it in Alaskan newspapers. PRINCE WILLIAM SOUND bites: Near the College Fiord are the Yale and Harvard Glaciers. Barry Glacier is close to that, but the place is clearly lacking a Popik Point, Popik Passage, and Port Popik. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:26:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:26:09 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" >are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized >speakers make the distinction. But seriously folks, these respelling matters are more than a little worth attention. I devised a system in the 70's to let unphoneticized speakers of American English approximate Polish pronunciations (against my grain, of course, but I was encouraged to do it). Rudy's point made earlier, which I have a great deal of sympathy for, was, quite simply, that Americans are so badly educated linguistically that I could not rely on an even minimal knowledge of a phonetic alpahbet. (Even academics, in discourse analysis,for example, have told me (and told others about me in print) that the "burden" on ethnomethodologists to learn a phonetic alphabet [when they provide unintelligible respellings!] would be too great). So, if we keep making up bad systems (and the "annotations" surely show how really awful they are), we have only ourselves to blame. dInIs >On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > >#This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are >#interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. > >Thanks for the explanation. I now understand much better the context of >this system. > >#On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the >#popular user, not for academics. > >Clear enough, and agreed. -- Without quoting or remarking on your whole >post, I'll agree that it's appropriate to that purpose, although >definitely not for describing pronunciations on this list. > > [Mark M.] >#> I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of >#> pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that >#> there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and >#> transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples >#> simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." >#> There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of >#> "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of >#> "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the >#> option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with >#> spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. ># >#ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. >#About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school >#graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in >#isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for >#[u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford >#American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. > >For a dictionary, "system for system's sake" may be an appropriate >dismissal. For a speech recognition company, though, system is >absolutely essential. We *had* to provide for users to say "Pierre" and >"Khrushchev" (as both /'krus.CEv/ and /'kruS.CEv/, and maybe /kruS.COf/ >as well -- C and S are c/s-hacek, E and O low-mid), and a whole slew of >other non-English words and, especially, names. > >#We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous >#phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either >#long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we >#say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). > >Ah. This "shoehorn", as exemplified below in your reply, is what I >didn't recall seeing in the earlier discussion. Extranotational >annotation, like mine above for "Khrushchev", can cover anything. In >this case, you rely on it (appropriately, imho) to cover distinctions >not made by the respelling. > >#We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, >#like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no >#indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in >#"pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic >#systems used in dictionaries. > >Agreed, these would be wholly excessive for your purpose. > >#> Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? >#> >#ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants >#to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of >#a midsize dictionary. > >My bad example. I meant the distinction between the nuclei, which is >made by your annotations: > suit SOOT (with long "oo") > soot SOOT (with short "oo") > -- yes? > >#> BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal >#> neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? ># >#ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all >#wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their >#own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice >#for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. > >Now, here's a problem. Discussion below, after the quote of your summary >of principle. > >#We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can >#with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising >#academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I >#hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no >#offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could >#go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. > >I understand your argument, and I suppose you're right about "most >users". But presumably the reason your users consult the pronunciations >is that they don't know how to pronounce a particular word. Your use of >"normally" suggests that the cot/caught distinction is exceptional, so >far outside the (descriptive) norm that you're justified in generally >dismissing it. If a user speaks a dialect that maintains the >distinction, how is she supposed to know from your merged respelling >which vowel to use in an unfamiliar word? > >To take a more plausible example than "cot" and "caught", imagine a New >York City high school junior looking up the unfamiliar words "sot" and >"fraught" (more likely to be unfamiliar than the minimal example >"sought"). The "o" respelling will tell her, misleadingly, that she >should rhyme them. How is she to know otherwise? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:27:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:27:47 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda formal equivalent of 'fuck.' dInIs > I suppose that, as we have already seen, there is real room >for a difference of opinion on just what is slang. In the case of >"cunt," I think there's at least a good argument that it's slang for >"vagina." (Historically, of course, "cunt" at one point was >standard English, as demonstrated by its c. 1400 use in a medical >textbook.) "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, >although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of >"damn." > > If you take the position, implicit in some definitions, that >slang requires an element of novelty, then neither word is slang. I >suspect, though, that a firm novelty requirement would narrow the >universe of slang down a little too much for comfort. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:21 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang > >I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally >slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen >Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) >has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back >through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of >Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that >classification. > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:35:38 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:35:38 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 01:36:46 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:36:46 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #>Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" #>are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized #>speakers make the distinction. I hope you're talking about Tom's text, not mine! -- Mark M. From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 05:02:30 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:02:30 -0700 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: Dennis first asked. Bethany referred him to Bill. Bethany knows when to let another "expert" handle a query she wouldn't touch, or rather, not touch with Denny. She figures if he, especially as an adult linguistic scholar, doesn't know what sexual intercourse is by this time, he's beyond her salvation--or best efforts. Beyond her downright bloody interest. I lay odds 10-1 that even if Denny's parents gave him 2002 Ferrari and begs Bethany, he won't get into her pants ever. 5-1 he doesn't know how. The guys are taking bets now. (Don't you dare tell Den-Den. He would have a shitfit.) Love Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 05:06:57 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:06:57 -0700 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I do beg your pardon for my most inappropriate "humor" which was accidentally missent. I suppose this does it for me on the list. My apologies both to Dennis and Bethany. I'll bow out gracefully. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 3 02:30:20 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:30:20 -0500 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: A colleague has sent two queries my way: (1) Why do we say "for good" (= forever), as in: "He left California for good"? (2) Why do we say "face the music"? What was the original reference here? Would anyone have any ideas? Gerald Cohen From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 03:24:09 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:24:09 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: >>I can't identify the >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine what >>terms are used within and without that population. Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but a good amount of work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that population. Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially accepted, legal, professions, which is something I disagree with. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 06:31:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:31:57 -0400 Subject: CATCH AND RELEASE (1997) Alaskan glossary Message-ID: CATCH AND RELEASE: THE INSIDERS' GUIDE TO ALASKA MEN by Jane Haigh, Kelley Hegarty-Lammers, and Patricia Walsh 138 pages, paperback, $12.95 Fairbanks: Hillside Press 1997 A book by Alaskan women about Alaskan men is not ordinarily my cup of tea (the ratio is the worst in the country for heterosexual men). However, this book has been called "the funniest book about Alaska in years" and it has a nice glossary that you'd probably miss. Pg. 126: glossary: need-to-know Alaska terms A-List; AFN--Alaska Federation of Natives; Alaska Time--Late; ANCSA; ANWR; ARCO; ATCO UNITS--Portable housing; Bailing wire; Beards; Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck...: BP Pg. 127: Break-up--When the ice on the rivers cracks...; Break-up boots; Boomer; Brooks Range; Bunny boots; Bush; Bush rat; Bush teacher; Cabin fever; Carabiner; Cat--A bulldozer; Chains; CHeechako; Chinook; Chum--A Dog Salmon; Coho-A SIlver Salmon Pg. 128: Cleanup; Commitment--Not present in the Alaska Man's vocabulary; Components; COnservationist; Cord; Crude; D-10; D-8 Pg. 129: DADS; Denali; Dividend Check; Dog Lot; DOuble Wall; Duck widow--An Alaska woman left at home while her guy is out duck hunting; Duct tape; Equinox; Exxon Valdez; Fish wheel; Fixer-upper; Five-eights--A forty-hour work week, five eight-hour days; Four-by-four; Four wheeler Pg. 130: Freeze-up; Frost heave; Fur Rendezvous; Gates, The; Gee; Gill-net; Gold pan; Gold pan painting; Grateful Dead; Grizzly; Handyman Special; Harness; Haul Road, The; Haw; Hazelwood, Joe; Headbolt heater; Homesteading Pg. 131: Honey bucket; Hot springs; Humpie--A Pink Salmon; Hundred-mile-an-hour-tape--Duct tape. It keeps his airplane together while going 100mph; Ice fog; Iditarod; Jay--Jay Hammond, ex-governor; Jerry-rig; Job; Jumping a trap line; Jumping a claim; King--King Salmon, see Chinook; Klondike; Libby; Libertarian; Loader; Longevity bonus; Lottery land Pg. 132: Lower 48; Mary; Midnight sun; Minute--Alaskan definition of eternity; Moose nuggets; Mukluks; Mush; Nordstroms--Alaskan for shopping; North, Up Pg. 133: North Slope; Nuggets, moose; Nuggets, gold; Okies; Opening; Operator; ORV--Off road vehicle; Out house; Outside; Panning; Parka; Permafrost; Permanent Fund; Pink--A variety of salmon; Pioneer; Pioneer's Home; Pipeline, the; Pipeline widow Pg. 134: Pipeliner; Placer mining; Plug-in; Pom-pom--...used to clean up the Valdez oil spill...; Quonset hut; R and R; Real House--The kind with plumbing, bedroom doors, and a dishwasher; Red Dog; Refrigerwear--Insulated coveralls; Rocking out the car; Ruff; RV; SAD--Seasonal Affective Disorder; Sauna Pg. 135: Seasonal; Seasons--May, June, July, August and winter; Set-net; 798-ers; Seven-twelves--Working hours consisting of twelves hours a day, seven days a week; Sex; Shoe-pacs; SHort call; Sierra clubber; Skating; Slope, the; Snagging; Snow-go--A snow machine; Snowbird; Sockeye--A Red Salmon; Solstice Pg. 136: Sorels--A trade name for shoe pacs; Sourdough; Southeast Sneaker--Goodyear knee-high rubber boots; Spawn-till-you-die--Famous Alaska motto; Spenard Divorce--Finalized when one of the spouses gets shot; Steve; Subsistence; Sun-dog; SUperinsulated; Susan Butcher; Tailings; Termination dust; The Big One--Denali, Mt. McKinley; THree wheeler; Tony; Trapline chatter; Trolling; Up North; Vacation Pg. 137: VECO; Visqueen--Polyethylene plastic sheeting; Wally; Wally World--Virtual reality; Week-on-week-off; Wind chill; Winter; Yukon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 06:33:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:33:12 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Jul 3 08:46:27 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 04:46:27 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] Message-ID: Does this have anything to do with civilization? I have always made the distinction. But I don't think I am more civilized than those who don't. When I said "normal," I was thinking of what I hear around me which is getting more complicated because by the latest count there are more immigrants like me than natives in the Toronto area. Sorry about the confusion. I guess we are all more or less normal. TOM. Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > #>Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" > #>are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized > #>speakers make the distinction. > > I hope you're talking about Tom's text, not mine! > > -- Mark M. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Jul 3 09:11:38 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:11:38 -0700 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: Here's a question for the true Southerners on our list, sent to me by a former Alabaman: This one's a purely non-official question. At dinner tonight Pat and I were discussing whether the word "grits" is singular or plural (guess what I was having with my omelette). One says, "Grits are tasty," but does one use "number" or "amount" when referring to grits? Hmm. Or does it matter? Rudy From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 3 10:08:59 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:08:59 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| Here's a question for the true Southerners on our list, sent to me by a |o| former Alabaman: I can see why she's a former Alabaman. I don't know who taught her her manners because she should have learned this as a child as part of her Southern survival skills. Said with the wrong inflection, grit, in the singular, would get a person shot down south. But grits is grits, girl, in any amount of you can manage to spoon out of the bowl and onto your plate. Cheese grits with a splash of Tabasco green sauce for breakfast; Ham, grits and red-eye gravy for lunch; & Fried Chicken and greens with grits fried in pot likker for dinner. Add a side of fried pickles to make dinner really special if company's coming. rhk From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 12:21:36 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:21:36 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >what I was having with my omelette). One says, "Grits are tasty," but does >one use "number" or "amount" when referring to grits? Hmm. Or does it matter? Grits are one of my favorite foods. Bethany Texan From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 3 13:09:39 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:09:39 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: O.K., which do you prefer, the transitive "he sexual intercoursed her" or the intransitive "we were sexual intercoursing"? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 9:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda formal equivalent of 'fuck.' dInIs > "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, >although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of >"damn." From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 13:37:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:37:44 EDT Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:34:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted > here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. The Making of America database, periodicals section, (it's from the University of Michigan rather than being restricted to Michigan periodicals) has three hits from the 1850's on "face the music." Two involve the Mexican War (not the Spanish-American War, which was 1898). One is metaphorical: in a description of the Battle of Buena Vista, the soldiers "face the music of war". The other is political: someone writing about the start of the war says to "face the music - tell the truth". The third is nautical---the writer (definitely not a 21st Century type!) is defending the practice of flogging. The writer attacks the alternative, imprisonment in the brig on a bread-and-water diet, as unhealthy and says that ships' medical officers must "force the legislators to face the music" on the drawbacks of shipboard imprisonment. Conclusion: "face the music" was a cliche by the early 1850's, and the MOA periodicals database offers no clue how or where or when the phrase originated. Now for a suggestion: in the US Army, soldiers literally "face the music". At 1700 hours on every Army post there is a ceremony called "Retreat", which has nothing to do with losing a battle but rather is the daily flag-lowering ceremony. It consists of three parts: first the bugle call "Retreat", then a cannon is fired, then the bugle call "To The Colors", during which the flag is lowered. If you are a soldier and you are outdoors when the first notes of "Retreat" are sounded, then you come to attention, facing the flag if you can see it, otherwise facing the source of the music (which in practice means facing the nearest PA speaker.) My suggestion is that in some English-speaking Army (the British Army with its bagpipers is a strong possibility) there was a situation in which soldiers were in a state of danger and had orders to face the music, or more exactly, the musicians. Two possibilities: an 18th Century army might have bagpipers or other musicians who led an advance towards the enemy, or a court-martial might have a drummer whom the accused had to face. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 13:53:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:53:54 EDT Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: Referring to the food, "grits" is a mass noun. So are "hominy" and the redundant phrase "hominy grits". (Grits is ground hominy.) For Lois McMaster Bujold fans, "groats" is also a mass noun. According to MWCD10, groats are ground coarser than grits and are not necessarily from hominy. >From the Order of the Turtle: "Four letters, last two are "i-t", commonly found in barnyards, and some people say Winston Churchill was full of it. What is it?" "grit" is used as a mass noun to mean a quantity of abrasive particulars. If you are referring to several different grades of such abrasives (as would an archeologist discussing potsherds), then you would say "grits" as a count noun. "grit" meaning "firmness of mind or spirit" is a mass noun. I cannot think of a plausible context in which one could speak of the "grits" or two or more persons. - Jim Landau From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Wed Jul 3 14:07:27 2002 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:07:27 -0400 Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: The fellow who coined the term "telecommuting" in 1973 has told me that in the early 80s he started using the word "telework," instead, because most European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? Paul From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 3 14:18:39 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:18:39 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <164.10257f8c.2a545bf2@aol.com> Message-ID: - Jim Landau writes: >For Lois McMaster Bujold fans, "groats" is also a mass noun. According to >MWCD10, groats are ground coarser than grits and are not necessarily from >hominy. ~~~~~~ I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in buckwheat groats or oat groats. I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:18:03 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:18:03 EDT Subject: CATCH AND RELEASE (1997) Alaskan glossary Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:32:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck Is the phrase "semi-truck" actually used in Alaska? The prime mover of a semi-trailer rig is, in trucker's jargon, a "tractor", hence the phrase "tractor-trailer". A "semi-trailer" is (MWCD10) "a freight trailer that when attached is supported at its forward end by the fifth wheel device of the truck tractor". >From context a "semi-truck" would be a truck equipped with a fifth wheel for pulling a semi-trailer, but it's a new one on me. Another error in "Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck" is that a dump truck, whether rigid-chassis or tractor-trailer, is a self-propelled vehicle. The writer obviously meant a semi-trailer with retractable openings on its bottom for dumping aggregate or other bulk material. Whoever the writer is, she is obviously neither a construction worker nor married to one. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:28:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:28:19 EDT Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in > buckwheat groats or oat groats. I should have looked at the M-W definition more closely. "1. hulled grain broken into fragments larger than grits 2. a grain (as of oats) exclusive of the hull" > I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one > particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip coffeemaker. Seriously, "grounds" is an interesting mass-vs-count example. A grounds-keeper usually is only employed for one ground(s)? A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds? "I own ground in the Poconos" but "my grounds in the Poconos. And the ethnic joke about a divorce case: Q. Do you have grounds? A. About two acres. - Jim Landau From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 3 14:36:25 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:36:25 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: Another example of facing the music (celestial choir?). Apparently, in some areas it was the custom to face a choir, while singing. >From MOA-Michigan -- George Winfred Hervey, 1856. The Principles of Courtesy: With Hints and Observations on Manners and Habits, p.141. [A discussion of the practice of facing the choir, while it is singing, but it is less than clear (on following pages) that the author is an advocate of the practice of the worshipers facing the choir.] http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=d2afa32c8cdcefc68bc996a44741bae0;q1=face%20the%20choir;idno=AJF2358.0001.001;view=image;seq=0141 ============= William Taylor, 1859. Seven Years' Street Preaching in San Francisco, California; Embracing Incidents, Triumphant Death Scenes, etc., p.128. "... and I and my wife always went in (to church) just as the congregation turned to face the choir...." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=d2afa32c8cdcefc68bc996a44741bae0;q1=face%20the%20choir;idno=AJG9120.0001.001;view=image;seq=0136 =============== George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:36:24 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:36:24 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lists at MCFEDRIES.COM writes: > most > European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the > sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems > surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language > for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? I don't know if this is correct, but I once read in a railroad magazine that this sense of "commute" comes from the practice of issuing "commutation tickets", this being the term for multi-ride tickets issued at a discount. In case you're interested, the word "commutative" is from Aristotle. "Commutative property" was introduced, in French, by François Joseph Servois in 1814. - James A. Landau From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 3 14:31:40 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:31:40 -0500 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: I believe two parts of what James Landau writes can fit nicely together: 1) the MOA attestation of "face the music of war": "Battle of Buena Vista," in _Southern Quarterly Review_, vol. 3, issue 5, 1851, pp.146-189. Page 171 contains: "Before these dispositions were completed, the Mexicans made their appearance--halted beyond the range of our fire--perceived our resolution to face the music of war--and prepared at once for the conflict." 2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, fifes, bagpipes, whatever. So "face the music (of war)" and "bite the bullet" (Civil War soldier about to be operated on without anesthesia and given only a soft-lead bullet to bite) seem to be two expressions that spread beyond their original military context to the more general one of: prepare to face or do something very unpleasant. Gerald Cohen >At 9:37 AM -0400 7/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 2:34:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > >> "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted >> here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. > >The Making of America database, periodicals section, (it's from the >University of Michigan rather than being restricted to Michigan periodicals) >has three hits from the 1850's on "face the music." Two involve the Mexican >War (not the Spanish-American War, which was 1898). One is metaphorical: in >a description of the Battle of Buena Vista, the soldiers "face the music of >war". [snip] >Conclusion: "face the music" was a cliche by the early 1850's, and the MOA >periodicals database offers no clue how or where or when the phrase >originated. > >Now for a suggestion:[snip] > >My suggestion is that in some English-speaking Army (the British Army with >its bagpipers is a strong possibility) there was a situation in which >soldiers were in a state of danger and had orders to face the music, or more >exactly, the musicians. Two possibilities: an 18th Century army might have >bagpipers or other musicians who led an advance towards the enemy, or a >court-martial might have a drummer whom the accused had to face. > > - James A. Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 3 15:11:55 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:11:55 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <135.10ba7a95.2a546403@aol.com> Message-ID: >Jim Landau writes: >> I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one >> particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! > >A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip >coffeemaker. ~~~~~~~ Ah, thus speaketh a man who takes his running h & c for granted. Sagacity in our case dictates the much simpler method of putting boiling water and ground coffee into a (glazed porcelain) beaker, stirring and waiting for the grounds to settle (chivvied along by a little judicious spoon work) before dispensing into cups. Makes both better coffee and for much less washing up. >A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds?< He could be making his grounds rounds even without a pistol. A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 3 15:09:28 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:09:28 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, >fifes, bagpipes, whatever. Whatever indeed! RHHDAS gives "music" = "gunfire", with examples from 1864, 1865, 1927, 1940. RHHDAS also gives the earlier sense of "face the music" as "face danger or hardship": I guess facing gunfire would fill the bill. Another speculation is that the music faced is the music played to accompany a military punishment or "dishonorable discharge" in the 'old days'. I don't know whether this is legitimate or not. -- Doug Wilson From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 3 15:38:27 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:38:27 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: Relative to recent list discussions about slang, from MOA -- Michigan, a notation that "faces the music" is a slang phrase, in: A commentary about The Works of William Shakespeare...., 1861-71, p.XXXVII. "The bully rock is the man who does not give ground, who, in our slang phrase 'faces the music'." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=afd3938a6ca512ee403a680992ca3e9d;q1=faces%20the%20music;idno=ABA6862.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000041 George Cole Shippensburg University From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 15:38:59 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:38:59 -0500 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703110232.00ab6880@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: on 7/3/02 10:09 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> 2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, >> fifes, bagpipes, whatever. > > Whatever indeed! > > RHHDAS gives "music" = "gunfire", with examples from 1864, 1865, 1927, 1940. > > RHHDAS also gives the earlier sense of "face the music" as "face danger or > hardship": I guess facing gunfire would fill the bill. > > Another speculation is that the music faced is the music played to > accompany a military punishment or "dishonorable discharge" in the 'old > days'. I don't know whether this is legitimate or not. > > -- Doug Wilson > My own folk etymology for 'face the music' has always been facing the trumpets that announce the impending volley of bullets in an execution ceremony. DMLance From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Jul 3 15:48:15 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:48:15 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: Good questions! I have always thought that the derivation of meanings is more important for English users than the development of forms as in comparative philology. American Heritage, thanks to Wm Morris, perhaps contains more meaningful etymologies than the competition, although I treasure it mostly for its IE roots. I wish some day some lexicographer would write a complete dictionary doing justice to this aspect of words. Maybe there are already dictionaries of this kind in existence that I don't know of. A couple of such titles may provide the answer to this query. TOM PAIKEDAY The User's® Webster www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (in preparation) Gerald Cohen wrote: > > A colleague has sent two queries my way: > > (1) Why do we say "for good" (= forever), as in: "He left California for good"? > > (2) Why do we say "face the music"? What was the original reference here? > > Would anyone have any ideas? > > Gerald Cohen From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Jul 3 15:54:32 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:54:32 +0100 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: Two other proposed etymologies: 1872 Schele De Vere _Americanisms_ 601: _Face the music, to_, a slang phrase, derived, according to J. F. Cooper, from the stage, and used by actors in the green-room, when they are nervously preparing to go on the boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces it back to militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully equipped and armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 3 16:04:28 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:04:28 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: <001501c222a9$ed5a7120$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: |o| boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces |o| it back to |o| militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully |o| equipped and |o| armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. |o| But none of the modern military usages carry the sense of 1. inevitability and 2. dread usually associated with modern meanings. I was thinking that William Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Mariner (1780) would shed some light on this when he talks about punishment and courts martial at sea in the British Navy, but nothing so far. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:32:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:32:44 EDT Subject: Non-native English? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/28/02 9:59:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > "Do NOT open the file. "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would > send out patches for IE unsolicitated. " > > I was intrigued by "unsolicitated" where I would have 'unsolicited'. A quick > google search suggests 'unsolicitate' is fairly common especially in this > context of spamming. > Is this another specialized usage for a backformation like commentate (cf. > comment)? Why I managed to type "unsolicitated" for "unsolicited" I don't know. It is not a formation that I ever use (except, apparently, when typing in a hurry.) In a message dated 7/3/02 10:02:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, I wrote: > "grit" is used as a mass noun to mean a quantity of abrasive particulars. Granted there have been messages on ADS-L that included abrasive particulars, but I meant to write "abrasive particles". - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:34:33 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:34:33 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: Here is the entry for 1865 from _America in So Many Words_ by Allan Metcalf and David Barnhart (Houghton Mifflin, repr. 1999): Americans did not invent the suburbs, but they did create the commuter--someone who shuttles from a home in the suburbs to a job in the city and back again every day. Residing at a considerable distance from work was made possible by the invention of the railroad, and the name for this kind of person was made possible by the invention in the 1840s of a ticket good for multiple rides, the commutation ticket. Here commutation means an exchange of one thing for another, especially if the new thing is a consolidation or reduction of the old. That is what the commutation ticket did: it exchanged individual tickets for a collective one at a lower price. The holder of such a ticket, being involved in the commutation, was thus called a commuter. Here is the Atlantic Monthly writing about railroads in 1865: "Two or three may be styled commuters' roads, running chiefly for the accommodation of city business-men with suburban residences." In that statement we already see the modern sense of commuter, connected with a lifestyle rather than a kind of ticket. Soon it no longer made a difference whether the person held a commutation ticket, only where the person lived and worked. A commuter could ride a trolley, subway, cable car, or ferry as well as a train. In the twentieth century the commuter turned to the bus and automobile. While public transportation still carried commuters, the modern image of the commuter has become the lone driver on the freeway (1930) or expressway (1944) or interstate (1968), enduring gapers' blocks and gridlock (1980), talking on a cell phone (1984) to drive-time talk radio (1985). From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 3 16:32:19 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:32:19 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a particular term for switching a regular verb form to irregular? How bought the other way around ? [Which would make more sense to me.] So two president's in a row - last one said "swole" this one here comes up with "drug." Am I correct in guessing its a Southern thing? (Both words with an early history - the original form maybe?) Any more common examples? He's written on this before, with Clinton's swole - but he wants to jump on Bush's drug with a fresh take and new knowledge. Thanks, Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 19:51:45 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:51:45 -0700 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: As an oblique sideline to the topic: 'A Dictionary of the Underworld', Eric Partridge, 1968. _music_, as money or other booty delivered perforce to a thief (esp. to a highwayman), is recorded as early as in 'The Widdow', by Jonson, Fletcher & Middleton, pub. in 1652 but written ca. 1616, for there a highwayman says, 'You must pay your Musick, sir | Where ere you come'; in C. 18-19, it survived only as an element in 'the music's paid'. _music's paid, the_. (Cf. preceding entry.) B.E., 1698, 'The Musick's paid, c. the Watch-word among High-way-men, to let the Company they were to rob, alone, in return to some Courtesy from some Gentlemen among them'--repeated in A New Canting Dict., 1725; another early example occurs at p. 21 of Anon., 'The Jacobite Robber', 1693; 1785, Grose, who implies that, by his time, it had been shortened to 'music'; app. + [apparently obsolete] by 1860 Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick H Kennerly To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:04 AM Subject: Re: "face the music" from "face the music of war" |o| boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces |o| it back to |o| militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully |o| equipped and |o| armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. |o| But none of the modern military usages carry the sense of 1. inevitability and 2. dread usually associated with modern meanings. I was thinking that William Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Mariner (1780) would shed some light on this when he talks about punishment and courts martial at sea in the British Navy, but nothing so far. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:58:53 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:58:53 EDT Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 12:35:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, millerk at NYTIMES.COM writes: > Is there a particular term for switching a regular verb form to irregular? > How bought the other way around ? [Which would make more sense to me.] An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term "strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend "irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. "swole" as past of "swell" could be due to the past participle "swollen". I've never heard it, though. "drug" as past of "drag" is common, enough so that it is in Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate, page 355 col 2 as "dial past of DRAG". It is rather odd, though, because there are other verbs in English of the form -ag (bag, brag, fag (out), flag, gag, lag, nag, rag, sag, snag, shag (a fly ball), tag, wag, etc.) but nobody ever brug about his adventures, snug her socks, got nug by his mother-in-law, or wug a dog. Most other incorrect irregulars have obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by analogy with "blew". - James A. Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 17:50:05 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:50:05 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <135.10ba7a95.2a546403@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0400 7/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > >> I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in >> buckwheat groats or oat groats. > >I should have looked at the M-W definition more closely. "1. hulled grain >broken into fragments larger than grits 2. a grain (as of oats) exclusive of >the hull" > The fact that "groats" are a bit like "grits" only bigger is a nice feather in the cap of sound symbolism. (It would never be the other way around, right?) My association with "groats" is kasha, a.k.a. buckwheat groats, which however is a mass singular as opposed to a mass plural (like grits and groats). Good stuff, although more for slightly cooler weather than we're having lately. larry From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Jul 3 18:33:37 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:33:37 +0100 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: A long time ago, we had a discussion about whether people tend to avoid calling people 'Jews' and instead prefer 'Jewish' (and whether this might be a non-Jewish approach to the words). I'm now doing some work on (non-metaphorical) meanings of 'Jew(ish)'--i.e. who counts as a Jew to English speakers from within and without Jewish communities, whether 'Jewish' can be used to refer to people who aren't 'Jews', etc. If anyone knows of any discussions of this in print/electrons (not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' that are currently used. Thanks, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 18:37:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <1418679.3234713617@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: #(not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested #to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' #that are currently used. I'm Jewish, and I had heard *of* self-referential "MOT"*, standing for "member of the tribe", but I had never heard it and thought it was obsolete till just this past week, when another Jew used it to me. * /'Em,o:'ti:/, not /'mat/. -- Mark A. Mandel From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 18:50:02 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:02 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: > >#(not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested >#to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' >#that are currently used. > >I'm Jewish, and I had heard *of* self-referential "MOT"*, standing for >"member of the tribe", but I had never heard it and thought it was >obsolete till just this past week, when another Jew used it to me. > First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. Alice From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 18:56:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits Message-ID: Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the official food somewhere (Georgia?). STOUP--Any hits for "stoup" (stew soup)? ALASKA'S COOKING, VOLUME II. Anchorage Woman's Club (1988), pg. 28, has "Hearty 'Stoup'" of onion, hot chili, Texas barbecued beans, beef broth, and tomato soup. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 19:05:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:05:24 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: #First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are #more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and 60s. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 19:06:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:54 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <70A7E229.35B5FE96.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the #official food somewhere (Georgia?). Official PROCESSED food. Whoever was saying it, from I don't remember what state either, was explicit that it wasn't displacing any of the other forty-'leven Official State Thingies of that state. -- Mark A. Mandel From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 19:11:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:11:48 EDT Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:33:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > I'm also interested > to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' > that are currently used. My father told me that in World War II his "dog-tags" (a form of ID used for US soldiers) had an "H" for "Hebrew" rather than "J" for "Jewish". "Hebrew" is still sometimes used to mean Jewish, although not as much now as in the 19th century. Note the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (the lay group to which Reform Jewish congregations in the USA belong), which was founded around 1875 (I don't have the exact date handy). I seem to recall that Lederer, in his book "Ensign O'Toole and Me" (early 50's?) referred to O'Toole's "half-Hebrew heart" (O'Toole's mother was Jewish). Offhand I can't think of any more recent examples. This use of "Hebrew" was long ago common in the Reform movement, which in its earlier days had a good deal of assimilationism. However, I believe there is a Christian sect called the "Hebrews", which could confuse things. Concensus is that the first appearance of Reform Judaism in the US was around 1824 with the "Reformed Society of Israelites" in South Carolina. As far as I know, there are no Christians who call themselves "Israelites". Solomon Schechter, who headed the Jewish Theological Seminary at the beginning of the 20th Century, liked to refer to "Catholic Israel", which I think is a misleading translation of a Hebrew phrase meaning "the community of Israel". The Making of America database has: Confirmant's guide to the Mosaic religion. By E. Eppstein. iv, 55, [1] p. 22cm. Detroit, Mich., F. A. Schober & bro., 1868. which manages to be a Jewish catechism without once using the word "Jewish". You could use "Semite" although that term includes Arabs. Similarly you could use "circumcized" although Moslem men are also circumcized. There is a major Jewish organization in the US called "B'nai B'rith". That name can be translated as "Sons of the Circumcision." A slang term, little known to Gentiles: "MOT" (acronym for "Member Of the Tribe") If you want to be obscure: "Jeshurun". The phrase "half-Jewish" is rather strange. How can someone be half a member of a religion? Therefore it must be a term for someone of mixed-race, comparable to "mulatto" or "mestizo". It bothered me in 1964 that Barry Goldwater was frequently described as "half-Jewish" yet never as "half-Episcopalian". I once heard a Hebrew-language prayer for peace in the Mideast that referred to "the children of Isaac" and "the children of Ishmael". - James A. Landau (Yehoshuah Eliyachu ben Yosef) P.S. Warning: "Messianic Jews" are NOT Jewish. They are a particularly obnoxious bunch of Christian missionaries. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:13:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:13:54 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:05 PM -0400 7/3/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > >#First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are >#more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. > >Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and >60s. Me too, but somewhat earlier and further south (NYC, Long Island; late '40's/50's), yet I don't have "M.O.T." natively, or anything equally colorful. Sorry. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:15:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:15:22 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <70A7E229.35B5FE96.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:56 PM -0400 7/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. > >GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the >official food somewhere (Georgia?). > I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits is now the official food somewhere. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:25:34 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:25:34 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > >#First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are >#more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. > >Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and >60s. Ditto on the Westchester and 50s/60s. But a lot of my undergraduate friends were from New York City, and I think I first heard the MOT (in full and initialized form, both) from them. Alice From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:50:51 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: y'all Message-ID: E D I T O R ' S N O T E B O O K Saving Y'all The Alcalde July/August 2002, p. 10 (alumni magazine of the University of Texas, Austin) >From this office, you can hear a linguistic and cultural death rattle. You can hear it in the classrooms, at the shuttle bus stops. "You guys know where this stops?" You can hear it in the bookstores and restaurants that encircle campus. "You guys know what you want to order yet?" I'm speaking, of course, about the impending death of the expression "y'all" at the hands of the address "you guys," like an aggressive exotic species supplanting a native one. Some of my friends and even my wife refuse to become alarmed at this, and so I must now use this platform to call on all good Texas Exes everywhere to save the expression "y'all." "Y'all" is as integral to the Texas experience as Dr Pepper and Dallas Cowboy arrests. Texas life just wouldn't be the same without it. We get worked up (rightly) over the disappearance of obscure lizards and birds, but without a champion, the priceless cultural gem that is "y'all" may be extinct by the time this reaches your mailbox. Older alumni will be incredulous that such a time-honored expression could indeed be on the way out. To those I say, come to campus. Shop at the Gap at Guadalupe and 24th, place an order at the Wendy's in the Union. Hear for yourself. Let's first dispense with the nonsense that there is something substandard or wrong with the expression "y'all." As a contraction of "you all," it is, at worst, somewhat redundant, in that "you" suffices as plural. But it is no more redundant than "you guys" and is leaps and bounds more correct than its Northern counterpart "yous," which is simply beneath contempt. And how wrong can it be if it has made the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, which states, "The single most famous feature of Southern United States dialects is the pronoun y'all, sometimes heard in its variant you-all. You-all functions with perfect grammatical regularity as a second person plural pronoun, taking its own possessive you-all's (or less frequently, your-all's, where both parts of the word are inflected for possession): You-all's voices sound alike." Normally, the evolution of expressions favors shorter and shorter incarnations, a phenomenon that could be called the KFC-ification of language. But here, we go from the one-syllable "y'all" to the multiple-syllable "You guys." Also, nowhere in "y'all" is there the slightest hint of sexism, as with "you guys." We can't refer to God as "Him" anymore, but it seems we can call all of humankind "guys." Curiously, even as it is passing out of favor with the mainstream, it is gaining popularity within the "hip hop" dialect, as in "'sup, y'all?" This fact, however, does not seem to soothe me. So much of hip hop must now be bleeped out that "y'all" may become permanently associated with pottymouthed performers. of course, the one sure way to bring it back is for broadcasters to start bleeping it. (Note to self: Write FCC.) Now then, as with anything good, we must guard against overindulgence. As educated people, I say we must steer well clear of the possessive form alluded to earlier, "y'all's." One local waiter asked me a while back, "Y'all want y'all's teas now or with y'all's food?" Such overzealousness is unseemly and gives fodder to our enemies. Yet as grammatically indefensible as that is, it has a certain colloquial charm. This has been replaced with: "You guys want you guys's teas ... ?" And think of the cultural staples that would pass away with it should we lose this linguistic gem. There are holiday classics, like "Merry Christmas to y'all, and to y'all a good night." Or words of the Bard like: "This was the noblest Roman of them, y'all." To those who would mindlessly replace our beloved second-person pronoun, John Donne rebuked you best, when he wrote "Do not ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for y'all." I'm counting on each of y'all to do your part to keep our language genteel an enshrine this slice of Texan, for all time. The Eyes o Texas are upon y'all. -Avrel Seale From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 3 19:56:36 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:56:36 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at > least there used to be, in American gay lingo. > > Is that still current? I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that way in a queer context. -- Steve Kl. From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 3 20:48:58 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:48:58 -0700 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>I can't identify the > >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way > to determine > what > >>terms are used within and without that population. > > Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't > exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but > a good amount of > work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that > population. Maybe you're right. You probably can identify a core group that is actively involved in a "culture of marijuana." There are groups like NORML and hemp advocates and at every high school you can readily identify the stoners. I guess my problem is that there are so many others who are peripherally associated with the pot-smoking "culture" that the boundaries of the group are vague. > Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially > accepted, legal, > professions, which is something I disagree with. No, I didn't mean to imply that at all. Clearly groups like the Mafia have a jargon, "soldier," "family," "made guy." Ditto for narcotics smugglers with words like "mule." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 21:06:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:06:11 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <192.944d1da.2a54874d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably #because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term #"strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend #"irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the past tense and/or the past participle: drink/drank/drunk sing/sang/sung fly/flew/flown ride/rode/ridden think/thought/thought I think there are seven classes of these. "Drig/drag/drug" seems to be imitating the class of "drink/drank/drunk", which iirc is historically inaccurate because the verbs of this class all end in "ing" or "ink" in the present tense. Not that historical accuracy is of any relevance here! The other funny thing about "drig/drag/drug" is that it changes the present tense; it was a joke, yes? There are real "neo-strong" forms, like "dove" (past of "dive") and "shat" (past/pp of "shit"), but I've never heard of changing the stem in the present tense. Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: walk/walked/walked "Have" and "go" are irregular: have/had/had go/went/gone IIRC, the past tense "went" was suppletive, originally from the now-obsolete verb "wend", which when used at all is conjugated weakly: wend/wended/wended If I were at home I would have appropriate reference material from which to flood you with accurate data, but I would also be undergoing physical and mental meltdown in the brutal heat we're having in the Northeast. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 3 21:11:30 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:11:30 -0400 Subject: FW: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: What Dennis and Bethany say below is a perfect lead-in to something I have been wondering about for a long time: >> On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany << When Pres. Clinton said, during a press conference, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky," his choice of words struck me as very peculiar. It seemed to me that the sentence was much too exact. Figuring he and his staff had carefully prepared the wording of the statement, I wondered whether there was some lawyerly motivation. I betook myself to the MW3 Unabridged, which (as I understand it) is taken as definitive for American English in US courts of law. Sure enough, "sexual relations" is defined as 'coitus'. So Clinton was telling the truth, if the later findings of the Starr report are to be believed -- no coitus, just oral sex. But if he had said "sex", he would have been lying, by the common understanding of the term. MW3 def of coitus: "physical union of male and female genitalia accompanied by rhythmic movements leading to the ejaculation of semen from the penis into the female reproductive tract; also : INTERCOURSE 3 — compare ORGASM" whereas the MW3 sense 3 of "sex" is: "3 : the sphere of interpersonal behavior especially between male and female most directly associated with, leading up to, substituting for, or resulting from genital union *agree that the Christian's attitude toward sex should not be considered apart from love, marriage, family— M.M.Forney*" The phrase "substituting for" would have made Clinton a liar, in the eyes of most (including lawyers). While we're on the subject, I must share with you all the sense 2 of "sex" in MW3. Please note the technical precision (dare I say preciosity) and absolute unsexiness: "2 : the sum of the morphological, physiological, and behavioral peculiarities of living beings that subserves biparental reproduction with its concomitant genetic segregation and recombination which underlie most evolutionary change, that in its typical dichotomous occurrence is usually genetically controlled and associated with special sex chromosomes, and that is typically manifested as maleness and femaleness with one or the other of these being present in most higher animals though both may occur in the same individual in many plants and some invertebrates and though no such distinctions can be made in many lower forms (as some fungi, protozoans, and possibly bacteria and viruses) either because males and females are replaced by mating types or because the participants in sexual reproduction are indistinguishable" Frank Abate From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:11:56 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:11:56 -0500 Subject: language Message-ID: Another item from the alumni magazine of the University of Texas. No context given for the quotation. DMLance ---------------- JUST PASSING THROUGH JAMES EARL JONES 4/23 'Language is itself the shaper of ideas. I always suspected a distinctive culture cannot exist, cannot persist without a distinctive language. ... As citizens in a fast-growing global culture, we face a cultural frontier. ... As the world shrinks, our need for cultural sensitivity expands.' Hosted By: The Texas Union Distinguished Speakers Committee From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:31:16 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:31:16 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, July 3, 2002 5:06 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the > Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the > past tense and/or the past participle: > > drink/drank/drunk > sing/sang/sung > > fly/flew/flown > > ride/rode/ridden > > think/thought/thought > > Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending > "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: > > walk/walked/walked > > Technically, think/thought/thought isn't actually a strong verb, but an irregular weak one. It has the dental ending, even if it's spelled with a t instead of a d. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:57:18 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:57:18 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <8f.1e64f569.2a54a674@aol.com> Message-ID: My father (a gentile) worked as a lifeguard at the Jewish Community Center in Des Moines in his late teens or early 20s. He once heard one of his younger charges mutter to another one, "What's HE doin' here? He ain't no Hebe!" I always assumed this was a normal self-reference among Jewish youth at that time and place, but I suppose it could have been an appropriation of a derogatory term used by gentiles at the time. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, July 3, 2002 3:11 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > My father told me that in World War II his "dog-tags" (a form of ID used > for US soldiers) had an "H" for "Hebrew" rather than "J" for "Jewish". > > "Hebrew" is still sometimes used to mean Jewish, although not as much now > as in the 19th century. Note the Union of American Hebrew Congregations > (the lay group to which Reform Jewish congregations in the USA belong), > which was founded around 1875 (I don't have the exact date handy). **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:25:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:25:38 EDT Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: >From the Jewish Encyclopedia, volume VII (1904), page 174 article "JEW (The Word)": ...In [post-Biblical] usage the word is often applied to any person of the Hebrew race, apart from his religious creed. At one time during the emancipation era there was a tendency among Jews to avoid the application of the term to themselves; and from 1860 onward the words "Hebrew" and "Israelite" were employed to represent persons of Jewish faith and race, as in the titles "Alliance Israelite Universelle" and "United Hebrew Charities." At the present time [1904] the name "Jew" is being more commonly employed....Of the several terms derived from the word "Jew" the only derivations in common use are "Jewess," "Jewish," and "Jewry"; but there are several curious more or less obsolete forms, as "Jewhead" (1300), "Jewhood" (Carlyle), "Jewishness," "Jewdom," "Jewism," and "Jewship," all used for the religious system....Symbolic epithets for the Jews are: "Chosen People," "Poeple of the Book" (suposed to be derived from Mohammed, who, however, used the term "Peoples of a Book" (or Scripture) as applying equally to Jews, Christians, and Sabeans), "Peculiar People" (comp. M. K. 16b), "Israel," "Jeshurun," "Keneset Yisrael," "Dove", "The Nation", "the Race," "The Lily". Slang names, given to the Jews by their opponenets, also occur, as "Sheeny" in English, "Zit" in Russian, "Youtre" in French. Among Russian Jews a distinction is made between "Yehudi", a Jew of German origin, and "Yid," one of Russian or Lithuanian extraction. NOTES: In 1904 there was much interest in races as opposed to ethnic groups, and a number of the contributors to the JE write of Jews as a race. "Chosen People" has the problem that it is easily interpreted as an insult to Gentiles, and therefore is rarely used. (Howeer, there is a synagogue in Alaska which has a sign reading "Welcome to the Frozen Chosen"). "People of the Book" is fairly widely used, by both Jews and Gentiles "Dove"? Note that in 1904 an ethnic slur was considered to be "slang". - Jim Landau From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 22:32:34 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:32:34 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits >is now the official food somewhere. It is the official PROCESSED food of Mississippi. Bethany From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:41:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:41:47 EDT Subject: Iceberg categories; Alaskan speak; Burger Jim Message-ID: In a message dated 07/02/2002 9:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Then, on July 6th, I fly to southern Germany, where my plane will collide > with another plane in mid-air. I have no knowledge of the accident in Switzerland that you don't, and I've never worked with European air traffic control. One controller I talked to said (based on news reports) that it looked like a "skinware" problem. "Controllers exist to prevent collisions, even when their collision avoidance software is not available. You can get used to having computers around, but controllers did their job before computers were available." Like most major accidents, this one was probably the result of a concatenation of things going wrong, followed by sheer bad luck (Do you have any idea how difficult it is for two airliners to hit each other in the vastness of the airspace over Switzerland?) Compare the Titanic, which required five separate things to go wrong, follwed by the bad luck of the ship sideswiping the iceberg at exactly the wrong distance. A few feet to one side and the Titanic would have missed the iceberg completely; a few feet to the other and it would have rammed the iceberg, after which it would have made it safely to port, bloody and literally unbowed, but safe. Since one of the ill events that led up the airplane collision was the handoff from German to Swiss air traffic control, and since you are not flying to Switzerland, you won't have to worry about incompetent Swiss controllers. I suggest you lean back in your seat and read Earnest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". - Landau From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:42:24 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:42:24 EDT Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 3:57:15 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at > least there used to be, in American gay lingo. > > Is that still current? I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that way in a queer context. -- Steve Kl. >> To be more exact, as I recall, "clever" meant 'sexually attractive' only when used of males and then only when combined with the words "number" or "trick"--i.e., a "clever number" was a sexy guy. I can't say if it was confined only to (parts of) the South, but my guess is that it is now archaic. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:46:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:46:40 -0400 Subject: TBC; Pipeline "pig" Message-ID: Last message from Alaska. TBC--Served at Scottie's Sub. There are about 100 Google hits; not in Mariani, I don't think. It's either "Turkey, Bacon, Cheddar" or "Turkey, Bacon, Cheese." One hit was "Turkey and Bacon Club." At Scottie's, the "London Burger" is a "Canadian Bacon Burger." The "England Burger" is ham, bacon, fried egg, American and Swiss cheese. FAT MAN PANTS--Seen at the Anchorage Museum of History and Art. CANTS--Rough timbers, also from a sign at the Museum. MELITZANO SALATA--From the Museum Cafe. Roasted eggplant pate served with pita bread, Greek olives and peppers. PIPEPLINE "PIGS" The Museum doesn't buy into the acronym, I guess: "Pigs" are devices that travel through the pipeline with the oil flow to clean the pipe or check for carrosion or dents. The name "pig" comes from the squealing noise the devices sometimes make as they rub against the inside of the pipe. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:49:33 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:33 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:33:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:33:46 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: <197.92fb3e4.2a54d97d@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:49 PM -0400 7/3/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> > >as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" Not in "s/he really loves to have sexual intercourse with" >as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" Not in "s/he's a good (talented, enthusiastic...) sexual intercourse" or "that poor dumb sexual intercourse never knew what hit him/her" Demand "fuck"; accept no substitutions! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:44:07 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:44:07 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <1493932.3234697038@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: >My father (a gentile) worked as a lifeguard at the Jewish Community Center >in Des Moines in his late teens or early 20s. He once heard one of his >younger charges mutter to another one, "What's HE doin' here? He ain't no >Hebe!" I always assumed this was a normal self-reference among Jewish >youth at that time and place, but I suppose it could have been an >appropriation of a derogatory term used by gentiles at the time. > >Peter Mc. > I never encountered "Hebe" growing up, anymore than "M.O.T.", and of course "Hebrew" had the opposite (euphemistic) value. But I did experience an interesting misunderstanding once in Paris, when my (very much non-Jewish, and no doubt bigoted) French landlady asked me apropos of nothing whether I was "israëlite". Never having heard the word, I processed it as 'Israeli', and said that no, I was américain. Only later did I realize she was asking (euphemistically) if I were Jewish. Not that I'm sure I'd have answered honestly even if I'd realized what she was asking me... Since then I believe I've encountered "Israelite" as a fellow-euphemism of "Hebrew" (as in "a(n) ... gentleman") to avoid referring to Jewishness directly. Possibly somewhere in "Gentleman's Agreement" or some such cultural relic. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:54:19 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:54:19 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > But I did experience an interesting misunderstanding once in Paris, >when my (very much non-Jewish, and no doubt bigoted) French landlady >asked me apropos of nothing whether I was "israëlite". Never having >heard the word, I processed it as 'Israeli', and said that no, I was >américain. Only later did I realize she was asking (euphemistically) >if I were Jewish. Not that I'm sure I'd have answered honestly even >if I'd realized what she was asking me... Since then I believe I've >encountered "Israelite" as a fellow-euphemism of "Hebrew" (as in >"a(n) ... gentleman") to avoid referring to Jewishness directly. >Possibly somewhere in "Gentleman's Agreement" or some such cultural >relic. I don't remember if I've recounted this here previously, but, here goes. When I was in grad school in Texas, teaching the intro for non-majors, one of my students asked (in an appropriate context) about the status of Jew as an ethnic descriptor. She was from Houston, and non-Jewish. But her best friend was Jewish, and had been instructed by her parents that she should tell them if anyone referred to her as "a Jew". Both kids had been very puzzled by this, since after all, it would have been accurate. This provided context for me for an earlier puzzling encounter. On my first trip to Austin (apartment hunting), one one of the flights I sat next to a Texas "woman of a certain age". It really appealed to her civic pride that a New Yorker had chosen the University of Texas. When I told her that I wanted to study the history of Hebrew and related languages, she asked, among other questions, if I was an Israelite. This totally took me aback. Now there was no hint of anti-Semitism in our discussion, though it's possible she hadn't had many conversations with Jews. It seems though that she, too, had been raised to think that there was a pejorative connotation to using Jew or Jewish, and was trying to use the most polite and neutral term she could think of, where it was clearly a reasonable category to refer to. Alice From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 4 00:01:56 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:01:56 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:25:38 EDT "James A. Landau" >At one time during > the > emancipation era there was a tendency among Jews to avoid the > application of > the term to themselves; and from 1860 onward the words "Hebrew" and > "Israelite" were employed to represent persons of Jewish faith and > race Here's an aspect which hasn't been mentioned. I went to that well known college in New Haven, and after more than three decades of maundering around the world ended back in my old home town, where you must be a graduate of Dickenson to practice law and a teacher with a degree from Juniata is considered elite. When someone occasionally asks where I went to college, I usually say New Haven, I don't say Yale. I don't think I would have this reticence had I gone to Princeton or Dartmouth or Cornell. The combination of the short, almost ejaculatory word combined with the special social circumstances of the small town where I live makes it more comfortable to say New Haven rather than Yale. I suspect the same phenomenon may be operating in the Jew/Jewish/Hebrew question. Jew is harsh; the polysyllabic synonyms are softer. D From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:06:58 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:06:58 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is, indeed Georgia that has made grits the official processed food. Funny, I never thought of grits as being processed; "processed food" seemed to me to be things like spam. Bill ps. My spell-check does not recognize "spam"; "grits" is fine. At 03:15 PM 7/3/02 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:56 PM -0400 7/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. >> >>GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the >>official food somewhere (Georgia?). >I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits >is now the official food somewhere. > >larry From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:09:31 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:09:31 -0400 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't we cite "convict jargon" as typical? Is being a convict socially acceptable? Bill At 11:24 PM 7/2/02 -0400, you wrote: > >>I can't identify the > >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine >what > >>terms are used within and without that population. > >Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't >exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but a good amount of >work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that >population. > >Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially accepted, legal, >professions, which is something I disagree with. > >-dsb >Douglas S. Bigham >In Transition. . . From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:18:33 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:18:33 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gambol Rogers used to speak of Floridians who spent a great deal of time figuring out how to bleach coffee grounds so that they could sell them to Yankee tourists on the interstate as grits. Bill At 11:11 AM 7/3/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Jim Landau writes: > >> I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one > >> particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! > > > >A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip > >coffeemaker. >~~~~~~~ >Ah, thus speaketh a man who takes his running h & c for granted. Sagacity >in our case dictates the much simpler method of putting boiling water and >ground coffee into a (glazed porcelain) beaker, stirring and waiting for >the grounds to settle (chivvied along by a little judicious spoon work) >before dispensing into cups. Makes both better coffee and for much less >washing up. > > >A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds?< >He could be making his grounds rounds even without a pistol. > >A. Murie From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Jul 4 01:24:36 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:24:36 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a long time--ancient in the 1950s. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:11:02 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:11:02 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early 1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish expressionor is also used in German. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: > I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a > long time--ancient in the 1950s. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:16:32 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:16:32 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: David Bergdahl wrote: >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >long time--ancient in the 1950s. It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a kind of self-reflexive irony. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:24:10 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:24:10 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020703210418.00a34490@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Bill Smith wrote: >It is, indeed Georgia that has made grits the official processed >food. Funny, I never thought of grits as being processed; "processed food" >seemed to me to be things like spam. Right. I erred - Mississippi now has an official state toy - the teddy bear. Bethany From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:28:26 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:28:26 -0500 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703221523.00b02bb8@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: >David Bergdahl wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > >It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've >also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a >kind of self-reflexive irony. > > That's interesting, because I am familiar with the term "landsman", but it does not mean to me that the person referred to is Jewish. My parents were in Sofia, Bulgaria visiting the American ambassador and his wife (she was a college friend of my mother's). While they were there, there went to some embassy function and were introduced to the Ambassador from China, Now my father was born in Tsingdao (oh dear, I'm not sure how to spell that! The one with the beer!)--his father was in the US Navy--and mention was made of this to the Chinese ambassador. My mother described his reaction as "Landsman!" (Apparently what he said was "You're Chinese!") I thought the word was German (or, given my mother's linguistic background, Norwegian). Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics (I should mention, just in case, my ancestry is pretty Anglo.) From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:29:36 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:29:36 -0500 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <1399950.3234695476@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: But maybe Kathleen Miller wasn't asking just about past tense. Here's Bush expressing concerns about the International Criminal Court: "Now, as the United States works to bring peace around the world, our diplomats and or soldiers could be drug into this court." (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/july-dec02/court_7-3.html) Is "drug" in passives also a well-established dialectal form? -Mai From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:44:56 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:44:56 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barbara Need wrote: > >David Bergdahl wrote: > >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a > >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > > > > >It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've > >also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a > >kind of self-reflexive irony. > > > > > >That's interesting, because I am familiar with the term "landsman", but it >does not mean to me that the person referred to is Jewish. My parents were >in Sofia, Bulgaria visiting the American ambassador and his wife (she was a >college friend of my mother's). While they were there, there went to some >embassy function and were introduced to the Ambassador from China, Now my >father was born in Tsingdao (oh dear, I'm not sure how to spell that! The >one with the beer!)--his father was in the US Navy--and mention was made of >this to the Chinese ambassador. My mother described his reaction as >"Landsman!" (Apparently what he said was "You're Chinese!") I thought the >word was German (or, given my mother's linguistic background, Norwegian). I've always assumed that "landsman" is Yiddish. In any case, in the heyday of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called "landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:45:59 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:45:59 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703224015.00ab09d0@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: >of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and >mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called >"landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" >was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure >at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use >sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. Like homeboy/homegirl? Bethany From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 03:02:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:02:30 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > > >of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and > >mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called > >"landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" > >was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure > >at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use > >sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. > >Like homeboy/homegirl? Pretty much. The only difference is whether the place of origin is in the same country or another country. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From pds at VISI.COM Thu Jul 4 03:32:58 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:32:58 -0500 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is "guter kop" the opposite of "goyisher kop"? At 07:11 PM 7/3/2002 -0700, A. Maberry wrote: >I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early >1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably >about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" >or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). >However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish >expressionor is also used in German. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 4 00:44:52 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:44:52 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <192.944d1da.2a54874d@aol.com> Message-ID: >... Most other incorrect irregulars have >obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by >analogy with "blew". DOes anyone else remember this? I sneezed a sneeze into the air It fell to earth I know not where But hard and cold Were the looks of those In whose vicinity I snoze Rima From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 06:13:33 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:13:33 EDT Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: For the life of me, I can never remember if the standard is "drug" or "dragged", but I will stick by "drug". As to similar things happening... how about: driv (=drove) i.e. How did the car drive? Oh, it driv alright. rid (=rode) I've heard "rid" twice with no mention, but "driv" on three separate occasions by three separate people who commented on it later (like, right after their sentence was finished). Everybody corrected theirselves (tee-hee), but the error was there... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From kkmetron at COX.NET Thu Jul 4 09:33:03 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:33:03 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: It always strikes me when I visit London how many RS speakers, referring to a repast earlier that day, say "I et", in the US a dialectical pronunciation I still hear in such varied regions as the Northeast, the South and the West. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Bigham To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: Re: drig drag drug? For the life of me, I can never remember if the standard is "drug" or "dragged", but I will stick by "drug". As to similar things happening... how about: driv (=drove) i.e. How did the car drive? Oh, it driv alright. rid (=rode) I've heard "rid" twice with no mention, but "driv" on three separate occasions by three separate people who commented on it later (like, right after their sentence was finished). Everybody corrected theirselves (tee-hee), but the error was there... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 4 07:29:00 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:29:00 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >long time--ancient in the 1950s. Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. Rima And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all the way... From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jul 4 11:17:59 2002 From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:17:59 +0200 Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: > "Commute" in European languages? > The fellow who coined the term "telecommuting" in 1973 has told me that in > the early 80s he started using the word "telework," instead, because most > European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the > sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems > surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language > for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? > > German has "pendeln", from the swing of the pendulum, with commuters being "Pendler", or sometimes - a little bit more explicit - "Berufspendler". P. Lucko From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 14:43:28 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:43:28 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>... Most other incorrect irregulars have >>obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by >>analogy with "blew". > >DOes anyone else remember this? > >I sneezed a sneeze into the air >It fell to earth I know not where >But hard and cold >Were the looks of those >In whose vicinity I snoze Me, me, me! Of course, I still have trouble avoiding talking about "freshly squozen orange juice". Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 14:47:00 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > >Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too >many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. > >In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and >bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, >beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and >then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > >Rima > >And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond >the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all >the way... Hmmm...now I'm remembering a similarly comedic scene in Blazing Saddles, from 1974 (I don't normally remember movie dates, but I saw the movie, twice, when I was at the LSA Summer Institute in Amherst, in 1974). Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 14:56:59 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:56:59 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/4/02 7:17:05 AM, Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE writes: << German has "pendeln", from the swing of the pendulum, with commuters being "Pendler", or sometimes - a little bit more explicit - "Berufspendler". P. Lucko >> Similarly, Italian has "pendolare" (pendulum) for "commuter" and "fare il pendolare" (do the pendulum) for "to commute." Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 15:07:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:07:20 EDT Subject: Mojo & Jojo potatoes (1960); Couch potatoes (1976) Message-ID: MOJO & JOJO POTATOES Greetings from New York City. I rushed right to my John Mariani ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK and to DARE to check for "jojo" potatoes. Neither work has an entry! Nothing on this American food! Roadfood.com has a discussion of it. Someone said it might be related to "mojo" potatoes. A check for "jojo" potatoes on the USPTO web site surprisingly turns up nothing. However, "mojo" potatoes were trademarked and first used in 1960 by the popular Shakey's Pizza chain. This could be why "jojo" appears in the west and not the east. I'll check "potatoes" info in the recently acquired Brownstone food collection at NYU when I have time, in about three weeks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- COUCH POTATOES OED has "couch potato" from 1979. USPTO records show it was trademarked by Robert Armstrong of Dixon, CA, with first use of July 15, 1976, and first use in commerce of April 20, 1977. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MISC. IF/WHEN SCOREBOARD UPDATE--David Shulman's radio interview aired last Sunday, so strike that one off...I e-mailed Dell about my rebate (Customer Care confuses you by using the word "credit" and never mentioning the word "rebate"). I received a response just now--I was to receive a credit? What credit was I talking about? DELL!!!!! I WANT MY MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOT DOG--The New York Times ran a "hot dog" article on July 3rd. The good news is that it didn't mention the "TAD" hot dog story. The bad news is that this article is exactly like every single one that's been written for the past 30 years, minus the TAD story. And why DIDN'T it mention the TAD story? The Polo Grounds was in New York City. TAD drews cartoons for a New York City newspaper. The thing was solved by an etymologist from New York. Why isn't my name mentioned in a single July 4th "hot dog" newspaper article, anywhere, ever? WINDY CITY & WASHINGTON POST--I wrote a letter to the editor of the Washington Post that its "Windy CIty" explanation 6-23-02 was wrong. I could not possibly make up the information on the Library of Congress's web site. My letter was not published. On Saturday, I wrote to the ombudsman of the Washington Post. I received no response. As I've said many times, I did my "hot dog" and "Windy City" work over five years ago. My total income to date from this has been zero, I've not been on tv, I've not been on radio, and I've won no awards. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 4 15:30:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:30:49 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #DOes anyone else remember this? # #I sneezed a sneeze into the air #It fell to earth I know not where #But hard and cold #Were the looks of those #In whose vicinity I snoze ! -- Mark A. Mandel From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 16:33:48 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:33:48 EDT Subject: Couch potatoes (1976) Message-ID: The origin of "couch potato" is explained in detail in a book to be published in October by Houghton Mifflin: "Predicting New Words: The Secrets of Their Success" by Allan Metcalf. Here is a pertinent excerpt: . . . Here's how it chanced to happen, according to an illustrated history by two of the perpetrators themselves, "Elders" Jack Mingo and Robert Armstrong, in The Official Couch Potato Handbook (1983). The saga began in the 1960s with nine Southern Californians who got together on Thursday nights to watch Lost in Space. Calling themselves the "Lost in Space Club," they soon began meeting to watch other television shows as well. "One of them," the story continues, "known only as 'The Hallidonian,' soon made the discovery that any day, any time was all right for prolonged, indiscriminate TV viewing." Then, supposedly on July 15, 1976, another of the nine "Elders," Tom Iacino, uttered the term couch potato in making a phone call to The Hallidonian. The illustrated history depicts the moment: "Hi, Annie Jo--Can I speak to the 'couch potato'?" asks Iacino's telephone voice, to which Annie Jo responds "The wha?" while across the room the Hallidonian relaxes on his couch, watching The Flintstones. . . From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jul 4 16:53:50 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:53:50 -0500 Subject: Postcard from R. Aman (editor, _Maledicta_) Message-ID: Reinhold Aman--editor of Maledicta--is certainly one of the most interesting word-researchers of all time and (as he has clarified to his readership) has come upon hard times the past five years or so. Yesterday I received a postcard he sent to his readers and other supporters, and I now share it with the ads-l list. It appears right after my signoff. BTW, I have no financial stake in _Maledicta_ and am sending this e-mail solely in the spirit of hoping to help Reinhold's publication. He's entirely correct when he says it's too valuable to let die. Gerald Cohen (postcard): from: Dr. Reinhold Aman MALEDICTA P.O. Box 14123 Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6123 "Dear Friend, Reader, Maledicta-Fan: "This is my final attempt to keep _Maledicta_ alive. To do so, I need your help--help in the form of orders and financial contributions, not just praise and encouragement, because moral support won't pay for the immense expenses of printing and shipping our unique publication. "After having emerged from four years of a life-sapping clinical depression caused by various unpleasant (non-legal) events, I'm now ready to publish our next volume (13) before December. Yet after four years of extremely low income ($2,500 - $4,000 a year), I have no money left and thus appeal to your generosity to contribute to the Maledicta Survival Fund. Everyone can afford to contribute $20 (or more) to get the next volume off the ground and to keep _Maledicta_ alive. "Also check the lower prices of back issues and other Maledicta press books at my Web page: http://www.maledicta.ORG/pricelist_order.html If you're not on the Net, please write for an Order Form (see address on front). My e-mail address is aman at maledicta.ORG "Please help this last time with a contribution MAL is too valuable and unique, I'm told again and again, to let it die. There's much material ready to be published, but without your support I simply don't have the means to print and ship another 160-page volume. "Checks and money orders are preferred; Visa and MasterCard charges are welcomed. "Counting on your kind support to keep _Maledicta_ (and me and my cats) alive. ---Reinhold (Rey) Aman, Editor and Publisher" From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Jul 4 17:24:44 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: The opposite of "goyishe kop" is "Yiddishe kop." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: Re: Jew/Jewish > Is "guter kop" the opposite of "goyisher kop"? > > At 07:11 PM 7/3/2002 -0700, A. Maberry wrote: > >I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early > >1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably > >about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" > >or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). > >However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish > >expressionor is also used in German. > > > Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services > pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA > > From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Jul 4 19:02:21 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 21:02:21 +0200 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: "Landsmann" is not specifically Jiddisch. The word exists in German as well as in the Scandinavian languages at least since the 16th century and simply means "someone from the same country or province". Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 19:10:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:10:17 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:29 AM -0700 7/4/02, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > >Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too >many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. > >In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and >bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, >beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and >then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > >Rima > >And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond >the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all >the way... actually, as he put it, "I don't go the whole hog". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 19:23:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:23:36 -0400 Subject: Mojo & Jojo potatoes (1960); Couch potatoes (1976) In-Reply-To: <141.10f06dba.2a55bea8@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0400 7/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >------------------------------------------------- >COUCH POTATOES > > OED has "couch potato" from 1979. > USPTO records show it was trademarked by Robert Armstrong of Dixon, CA, >with first use of July 15, 1976, and first use in commerce of April 20, 1977. > Fer sher. Robert was a fellow-traveller of R. Crumb and his Cheap Suit Serenaders, a somewhat funky string band. They all holed up in a nice country house in Sonoma County at the time, and Robert lived off the royalties of "couch potato" and silk-screened T-shirts for a while back then. Some of the T-shirts featured a laid-back spud qua couch potato, i.e. a "tuber". Them was the days. larry From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Jul 4 23:36:21 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:36:21 -0600 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Amish wear crosses?? Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 1:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Jew/Jewish > > > >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it > has been dead a > >long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too > many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and > never MOT. > > In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing > the lost and > bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the > black hats, > beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and > then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > > Rima > > And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond > the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all > the way... > From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 5 01:17:36 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:17:36 -0700 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: <000001c223b3$9a154ac0$02da0c0a@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >The Amish wear crosses?? Now that I think about it, I think they (the Amish in Frisco Kid) had Bibles in their pockets and the Bibles had crosses on the covers. Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 02:25:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:25:31 EDT Subject: Skort; Buddha's Fingers; Jackhammer; Denali Rose; Sorbetini Message-ID: SKORT From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in cycling in the 1960s. It's not in OED. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BUDDHA'S FINGERS Also in ALASKA AIRLINES magazine (I read it every month), July 2002, Pg. 79, col. 1: Inside tranquil Beihai Park, Fangshan Restaurant (1 Wenjin Street, 011-86-10-6401-1879) serves imperial cuisine based on nearly 1,000-year-old recipes. Many of the old court favorites--bears' paw and tiger kidney among them--are no longer available, though visitors can still enjoy everything from turtle soup to Buddha's fingers (minced duck, pork and scallions wrapped in thin pancakes) under Fangshan's golden-domed ceiling and latern-shaped chandeliers. (A Google search for "Buddha's fingers" turns up some interesting hits, but not the pancakes--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JACKHAMMER Muffin Man Cafe, 817 West Sixth Avenue, Anchorage, also offers a BLTA. I checked Google, adding "tomato, lettuce" and such: BLTA--89 hits BALT--17 hits BLTE--14 hits BELT--573 hits So I guess it helps that "belt" is a word and "balt" is not. Right above BLTA under "classic sandwiches" is: JACKHAMMER--HOUSE BAKED HAM AND MONTEREY JACK CHEESE ON SOURDOUGH WITH LETTUCE, TOMATO, DIJON AND MAYO. "Jackhammer" makes a lot of sense, but I saw only a few "jackhammer" and "jack hammer" hits on Google. Sometimes these things require a Jack-in-the-Box to promote a "Jackhammer" for it to take off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- DENALI ROSE The Glacier Brewhouse (www.glacierbrewhouse.com) is a popular Anchorage spot where I had my last Alaskan meal. The menu has these infused cocktails: RUBY DROP 5.50--BrewHouse citrus infused vodka and housemade lemon & lime sour. Hand shaken, and sweetened with a sugared rim. LAZY SU 5.25--A refreshing, shaken medley of kiwi, pineapple infused rum, prach schnapps and lemonade. DENALI ROSE 5.50--Cranberry, kiwi, and pineapple infused rum, shaken with cranberry juice, housemade sweet & sour with a splash of Chambord. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SORBETINI The AMERICAN WAY (AMERICAN AIRLINES) magazine for July 1, 2002 includes a specialty of Keefer's (20 W. Kinzie, Chicago). It's SORBETINI--vodka and sorbet freezes. I didn't see it on Google, but it looks kewl in the magazine. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 5 02:39:12 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:39:12 -0400 Subject: Skort; Buddha's Fingers; Jackhammer; Denali Rose; Sorbetini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SKORT > > From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: > > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," >which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark >records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in >cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. I wore skorts in high school--late 60s. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 5 04:34:37 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:34:37 -0600 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, okay, then. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Thurs, July 4, '02, Rima McKinzey wrote: > > > >The Amish wear crosses?? > > Now that I think about it, I think they (the Amish in > Frisco Kid) had > Bibles in their pockets and the Bibles had crosses on the covers. > > Rima > From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 5 04:49:11 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:49:11 -0600 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to remember considering this for the Gage Canadian Dictionary (copyright '83). Skorts were a big fashion item in the 70s, with no ref to cycling, and they weren't stretchy (don't think they made "stretchy" back then, except for bathing suits); they were just a short skirt attached to shorts or sometimes even just a front panel open on one side, for the look of a wraparound skirt. I can't really remember why it didn't get entered, but it was most likely that we didn't want to use precious space for ephemeral fashion terms. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Thursday, July 04, '02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SKORT > > From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: > > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the > flattering "skort," > which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in > trademark > records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it > was used in > cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 5 05:56:53 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:56:53 -0700 Subject: Skort Message-ID: one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set up a context in which a sentence involving both the words SKORT and SPORK would be natural. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), easily amused From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 13:25:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:25:26 EDT Subject: Skort Message-ID: In a message dated 07/04/2002 10:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," > which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark > records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in > cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. I can give a citation from 1957-58. I was in the 5th grade that year, and there was some children's newspaper or magazine that we read regularly in class (My Weekly Reader?). The magazine had an article on new words. I distinctly remember two such new words in that article: "moonlighting" and "skort". The article also suggested that you put it away for five years and when you take it back out, see how many of these new words are still in use. Well, I did just that. In the tenth grade, miraculously, I was still able to locate the article, which I gave to my tenth-grade English teacher, who kept it, but maybe somebody can locate it. - James A Landau then of Gideon Shryock Elementary School P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Jul 5 13:31:24 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:31:24 +0100 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <7e.2a07152a.2a56f846@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Friday, July 5, 2002 9:25 am +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral > color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels > "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". I'd call it a 'chearleader's skirt', but that's more about the length and pleats than about the panties. I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a tradename. Now, trying to find 'lollipop' by putting 'lollipop cheerleader panties' into Google brings up a whole lot of borderline pedophilic stuff. In most cases, the 'lollipops' involved are not panties, but I do find a reference at: http://hillsborodukes.org/cheer_uniform_Info.htm Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 5 14:44:20 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:44:20 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <4441937.3234868284@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne Murphy writes: >I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the >panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen >when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a >tradename. ~~~~~~~~~ Lollipop was indeed a trademark name of underpants. Can't remember which manufacturer -- possibly Globe -- but do remember their being very well-made. Never thought of them as made to be visible! A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Jul 5 14:51:42 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:51:42 -0700 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <4441937.3234868284@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: I was on drill team many moons ago and our uniforms consisted of a top, skirt, briefs, gloves, socks, shoes and pom poms. The briefs aren't actually part of the uniform. They are very thick and actually meant to be worn over panties. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Lynne Murphy Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:31 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Skort --On Friday, July 5, 2002 9:25 am +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral > color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels > "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". I'd call it a 'chearleader's skirt', but that's more about the length and pleats than about the panties. I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a tradename. Now, trying to find 'lollipop' by putting 'lollipop cheerleader panties' into Google brings up a whole lot of borderline pedophilic stuff. In most cases, the 'lollipops' involved are not panties, but I do find a reference at: http://hillsborodukes.org/cheer_uniform_Info.htm Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 5 15:14:59 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:14:59 -0400 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: I have the radio on to the Tony Kornheiser show on ESPN radio. The person he's interviewing (I didn't catch the name, but he's talking about Julia Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a locution that others have encountered? Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Fri Jul 5 15:53:54 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:53:54 -0400 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020705111234.00ac4090@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: |o| Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard |o| line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. In the radio world (HAM/CB/Police) landline has been in use for decades. Never heard hard line before, though. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 15:56:01 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:56:01 EDT Subject: Hard line Message-ID: In a message dated 07/05/2002 11:14:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > the delay in getting to his "hard > line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a > locution that others have encountered? I haven't heard this specific usage, but as long as I have been in the computer business (since 1965) "hard" and "soft" have always been used as antonyms, with "hard" meaning or implying permanence, and "soft" meaning or implying "temporary, easy to modify". For example, a long-ago article on computers in South America talked about problems with "soft hardware" and "hard software", that is, in South America computer installations (this was long before microcomputers) had trouble keeping up with manufacturer's changes to hardware, while on the other hand they were not getting current updates to software. The ROM (read-only memory) on your PC is also called "firmware"---it is supplied by the vendor, and is not supposed to be modified (hence is hard) yet can be easily modified by the vendor (so it is softer than hard, hence "firm"). There is a double-entendre here, although the coiner of "firmware" may not have realized it----firmware can also be changed by the "firm" that issued it. A nonce usage from a programmer back in 1971---at an exhibit of new railroad technology, he referred to those displays using traditional steel rails as "hard rail" and those using concrete etc. as "soft rail". Software is soft, right? Not necessarily. Consider a "parameter" in your program, such as the number of departments in your company. You can set up this parameter as part of the program, or you can set it up in a table where it can be easily changed. The former is called "hard-coding" since it requires a skilled programmer to go into your program to modify it, and therefore is more permanent. No, I have never heard "soft-coding" for the latter. In the FAA we call it "adaptation" and make a religion out of it, but I don't know if that is a widely used term. If the wiring between two pieces of equipment is soldered in place so that it takes a competent electrician to change the connections, it is said to be "hard-wired". Sometimes the usage is somewhat metaphorical, to mean something like "difficult to change", as in "he was hard-wired for coffee breaks". Again, I don't know the antonym for "hard-wired"; perhaps "switchable". (Hmmm. Instead of knee-jerk liberals, we have hard-wired liberals?) I suspect the hard-versus-soft metaphor goes back to whoever invented the term "software". - Jim Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 5 16:35:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:35:51 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020705111234.00ac4090@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: > I have the radio on to the Tony Kornheiser show on ESPN > radio. The person > he's interviewing (I didn't catch the name, but he's talking > about Julia > Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard > line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell > phone. Is this a > locution that others have encountered? It's used in the movie "The Matrix" (1999). In that movie it did not simply mean a landline, but an analog (non-digital) landline. A quick google search pulls up a handful (5) sites that use the phrase "telephone hardline." So it doesn't appear to be in common use. It is not a telecom jargon term as far as I know. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 18:01:06 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:01:06 -0400 Subject: Lollipop underwear; Mohs surgery Message-ID: My telephone service went out last night. I was gonna call the phone company to tell them, but I couldn't. My telephone company is MCI. I hope it's back when I return home. LOLLIPOP UNDERWEAR--Trademark record show a "Lollipop...women's and children's knit underwear and sleepwear," with first use of January 1, 1941. The company is Modern Globe, Inc., of Pawtucket, RI and also North Wilkesboro, NC. MOHS SURGERY--I didn't see this in OED. Is it coming in the OED revision? From today's NEW YORK TIMES, 5 July 2002, pg. C7, col. 2: _Frederic Mohs, 92, Inventor of Cancer Sergery Technique_ (...) Mohs surgery, originally also known as chemosurgery, allows the physician to map and remove not just the visible parts of a skin cancer but also its cancerous roots, which can spread into the body along blood vessels, nerves and cartilage. (If the OED revision has already worked on this, then just add the obit.--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 5 19:05:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:05:32 -0400 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <19b.4c0dc62.2a571b91@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: # #> the delay in getting to his "hard #> line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a #> locution that others have encountered? # #I haven't heard this specific usage, but as long as I have been in the #computer business (since 1965) "hard" and "soft" have always been used as #antonyms, with "hard" meaning or implying permanence, and "soft" meaning or #implying "temporary, easy to modify". The term "hard copy" means a physical, handleable paper copy of an electronic document. In this context plain "copy", as in "I'll send you a copy", usually means an electronic copy, e.g., as an email attachment. I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft copy". This could count as a retronym. I sometimes similarly use "hard mail" in opposition to "email", as a noun. AFAIK it's always been understood without difficulty, but I have not heard/seen anyone else using it. -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 5 19:15:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:15:51 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The term "hard copy" means a physical, handleable paper copy of an > electronic document. In this context plain "copy", as in > "I'll send you a copy", usually means an electronic copy, e.g., > as an email attachment. I haven't heard the expected counterpart > "soft copy". This could count as a retronym. I've heard and used "soft copy" on many occasions, not as many as "hard copy," but often enough that is quite familiar. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 01:15:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 21:15:26 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <200207050556.g655urG25238@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: At 10:56 PM -0700 7/4/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set >up a context in which a sentence involving both the words >SKORT and SPORK would be natural. > "Why Ru Paul, is that a spork under your skort, or are you just happy to see me?" L From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 01:31:40 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: >At 10:56 PM -0700 7/4/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set >>up a context in which a sentence involving both the words >>SKORT and SPORK would be natural. >"Why Ru Paul, is that a spork under your skort, or are you just happy >to see me?" RuPaul wouldn't be caught dead in a skort; they're far too preppy. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 6 02:18:29 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: A local columnist has sent me an interesting query that I do not know how to respond to. Please help me answer this (you will get full credit for all your words, good, bad, and indifferent). I can discuss certain epithets, but I suspect those are not the words at issue. (I have a copy of _The F-Word_ now, but I will not have access to it again until Monday.) ---- Bethany, My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed on to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get to be bad? Can you shed any light on this for me (and for him). Thanks. ----- Thanks, Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 03:15:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:15:35 -0400 Subject: A Lantsman! (1970) Message-ID: THE TASTE OF YIDDISH by Lillian Mermin Feinsilver South Brunswick, NY: Thomas Yoseloff 1970 Pg. 202: A LANTSMAN! A countryman! (discovery that someone comes from the same part of the world that you do) Though originally this referred to the Old World, second- and third-generation American Jews use it good-humoredly. Two New Yorkers meeting in Paris, for instance, might chuckingly use the exclamation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 03:59:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:59:23 -0400 Subject: Chicago beigel (1928) Message-ID: THE GHETTO by Louis Wirth Chicago: The University of Chicago Press December 1928 Second Impression December 1929 Pg. 224 (The Chicago Ghetto): There are Kosher bake-shops with rye bread, poppy-seed bread, and pumpernickel daily, and a kind of doughnut known as _beigel_ for _Shabboth_. (The attached Chicago tidbit is FWIW, found during a search just now. Oy--ed.) For mother and daughter, Chicago seems like a toy box ANNE CHALFANT KRT NEWS SERVICE 1,121 Words 06/30/2002 The Star-Ledger Newark, NJ FINAL 002 (c) 2002. The Star-Ledger. All rights reserved. ... The Art Institute of Chicago, along with the Museum of Science and Industry, was constructed for the 1893 Columbian Exposition, which, by the way, is supposedly where Chicago earned its "Windy City" moniker, named for the pride-filled Chicago boosters who went to New York to stump for bringing the exposition to their town. This is the kind of fact learned on an architecture tour of this city... From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 6 05:22:57 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:22:57 -0500 Subject: drig, drag, drug Message-ID: How many classes there are depends on whose grammar you're going by. The traditional seven goes back to the seven major strong verb classes of OE, which doesn't work well even for OE, since there are other minor classes as well. But for learning OE, the seven are a good preliminary breakdown. Greenbaum's 1996 Oxford English Grammar has more (I've forgotten the number and I don't have the grammar handy at the internet cafe in Vilnius), based entirely on patterns in Modern English. But it's useful to keep strong/weak separate from regular/irregular. Strong/weak is a distinction that Grimm made to distinguish between forms he attributed to Ur-Indo-Germanisch, roughly Proto-Indo-European. The ablaut, or vowel-changing forms without a dental suffix were strong. Anything with a dental suffix was weak, the dental suffix being a specifically Germanic innovation. His use of strong vs. weak goes back to his Rousseau-influenced romantic nationalism, which led him, and his brother, to try to reconstruct the language and culture of the culturally pure ancestors of the modern speakers of Indo-Germanic, as he called them, languages. Within any modern Germanic languages there are irregularities in verbs the develop within strong or weak or across them, like go/went/gone, in an extreme case. I like especially the seeming restoration of a preterite plural with sneak, snuck (pret. sg.), snook (pret. pl., rhymes with took), snuck (past part.). From a recent thread on this, this pret. pl. seems to occur in the Buffalo area as well as in Central Indiana and in the Santa Monica area. Herb > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably > #because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term > #"strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend > #"irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. > > Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the > Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the > past tense and/or the past participle: > > drink/drank/drunk > sing/sang/sung > > fly/flew/flown > > ride/rode/ridden > > think/thought/thought > > I think there are seven classes of these. "Drig/drag/drug" seems to be > imitating the class of "drink/drank/drunk", which iirc is historically > inaccurate because the verbs of this class all end in "ing" or "ink" in > the present tense. Not that historical accuracy is of any relevance > here! > > The other funny thing about "drig/drag/drug" is that it changes the > present tense; it was a joke, yes? There are real "neo-strong" forms, > like "dove" (past of "dive") and "shat" (past/pp of "shit"), but I've > never heard of changing the stem in the present tense. > > Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending > "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: > > walk/walked/walked > > "Have" and "go" are irregular: > > have/had/had > go/went/gone > > IIRC, the past tense "went" was suppletive, originally from the > now-obsolete verb "wend", which when used at all is conjugated weakly: > > wend/wended/wended > > If I were at home I would have appropriate reference material from which > to flood you with accurate data, but I would also be undergoing physical > and mental meltdown in the brutal heat we're having in the Northeast. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 6 10:31:08 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 06:31:08 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <000001c224ae$f8349420$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Two surprises for me here. First of all, I was surprised to see this used by a mainstream US News & World Report writer as original text, not a quote. The second was that I'd always heard and occasionally used "groady" or perhaps "grody", I've never seen it in print, but wasn't aware it had made it into mainstream usage (usage: cleaning the grease trap is pretty groady work--possibly a coined word from gross and ???). Am I just out of it? Across town from Red Earth, in a grotty strip-mall bar surrounded by four "gentlemen's clubs" and a bingo parlor, the members... USN&WR, July 8-15, p. 27. (BTW, I was aware of the computer command GROTTY in the GNU system of commands) rhk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 10:57:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 06:57:54 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" In-Reply-To: <3423E433.688FD8D8.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the "race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: 1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Jul 6 03:20:37 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:20:37 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed > on > to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get > to > be bad? A few months ago at a village council meeting a councilman in a Dickie's shirt and Cat hat told a citizen to get her "fat ass" out of the room. Our local newspaper was just stunned by these words and editorialized about the collapse of civilization. I was allowed a guest editorial, which I attach below. D ++++++++++++++++ On September 27, 1066, William, Duke of Normandy, landed at Pevensey, in the south of England. As a direct result of this thousand-year-old event, The Daily Review in a recent story had to parenthetically mask a three letter word (which, incidentally, was not a deleted expletive as reported but rather a deleted noun) referring to a local resident's derriere and its purported steatopygic condition. Normandy is in France, and although William came from an immigrant family (Norman is a corruption of Norsemen), he spoke French. After conquering the German-speaking English (from Angles, a German tribe who had arrived five hundred years earlier), William brought in his French cronies to share in the spoils. There was no English language at this time, making degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than they are today. It took two centuries for French to meld with German into English. English is so rich in synonyms because it is a mixture of two different languages, and often both French and German words for the same thing were incorporated into it, but not necessarily with the same value. During the formative centuries, the nobility spoke French, and German was the language of the conquered peasants. As both groups came to speak the same newly evolved language, words with French roots acquired a patrician cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of disapprobation originally describing the lower class). For the same reason, today we eat pork from swine and beef from cows. German speakers tended the farm animals and gave them their names, but the French upper class ate the meat -- porc and boeuf as well as venison, poultry, and mutton. In the Bible the 3d Commandment proscribes using the name of God in inappropriate ways. Aside from that, all other profanity is a cultural phenomenon, essentially a tool of class discrimination. "Dirty" words have no intrinsic taint. They have power only as we choose to give it to them, and condemnation of certain words in favor of others meaning exactly the same thing is historically elitist. Had someone in Windham been asked to remove her derriere, it would have been quite proper, even quaint, as far as the language is concerned. It strikes me that a great deal of fuss is being made over a linguistic anachronism. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 6 12:52:03 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:52:03 +0100 Subject: grotty Message-ID: Grotty, as in 'grotesque', was part of the mini-vocabulary ('fab', 'gear', and 'swinging' were among the better known coevals) that emerged in the UK c.1963 as what one could term the linguistic spinoff the Beatlemania. It was etymologised, like everything seen as stemming from the 'Fab Four', as being Liverpudlian in origin. Unsurprisngly the first OED cite is from what looks to be a novelisation (1964) of the Beatles film 'Hard Day's Night'. I have always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang and Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). Jonathon Green From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 6 14:00:55 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:00:55 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <8f.1e64f569.2a54a674@aol.com> Message-ID: James Landau wrote, among other things: 'Solomon Schechter, who headed the Jewish Theological Seminary at the beginning of the 20th Century, liked to refer to "Catholic Israel", which I think is a misleading translation of a Hebrew phrase meaning "the community of Israel".' Here's what Neil Gillman's book, Conservative Judaism, has to say about this on page 54: "Catholic Israel! What a strange term, and how often it has been misunderstood. It is quite clear what Schechter did not mean. He clearly did not mean that if we want to know what Judaism stands for, we should simply look at how most Jews act and what they believe. By that criterion, Judaism would have been declared long dead. Nor did he feel that rabbis and scholars should have no influence on the community's understanding of Judaism. He was far too much of an intellectual elitist to believe that. The adjective _catholic_ - with a lower-case _c_ - simply means 'universal,' 'broad,' or 'comprehensive,' the opposite of narrow, denominational, sectarian, or partial.'" From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 17:20:52 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:20:52 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I distinctly remember Ringo Starr employing _grody_ in the 1960s. It was the first time I had heard it used and I searched around that day until I discovered what it meant and where "it came from." In the late 1980s I purchased 'New Dictionary of American Slang' (ed. Robert L. Chapman, Ph D., 1986). His entry is: grotty (GROH dee, -tee) 1. adj (variations: groady or groaty or groddy; to the max may be added) esp teenagers fr 1960s Disgusting; nasty; repellent; bizarre; = GRUNGY, SCUZZY: The magazines had covers with those grotty weirdos on them--Philadelphia 2 noun: the introspective hedonism and political individualism of the second group... called groddies--Trans-Action [fr grotesque; popularized by the Beatles in the 1960s; perhaps fr Merseyside dialect] Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 5:52 AM Subject: Re: grotty Grotty, as in 'grotesque', was part of the mini-vocabulary ('fab', 'gear', and 'swinging' were among the better known coevals) that emerged in the UK c.1963 as what one could term the linguistic spinoff the Beatlemania. It was etymologised, like everything seen as stemming from the 'Fab Four', as being Liverpudlian in origin. Unsurprisngly the first OED cite is from what looks to be a novelisation (1964) of the Beatles film 'Hard Day's Night'. I have always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang and Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). Jonathon Green From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 17:43:48 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:43:48 -0700 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" Message-ID: As unlikely as it seems, in 1983 I came across an ad in The Providence Journal, 1937 or 1938, for a live show featuring Jack Benny (among other stars) and "Rock and Roll!" It's time for me to go back to the newspaper archives since my asseveration raises too many eyebrows! Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Shapiro To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 3:57 AM Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the "race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: 1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 6 15:19:14 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:19:14 +0100 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 16:04:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:04:07 EDT Subject: Chutzpah, Shiva, Chanukkah, Schnorrer (YOUNG ISRAEL, 1873-1875) Message-ID: Greetings from the Jewish Division of the NYPL. I fly to Berlin for a discussion of the Wannsee Conference & the Jewish Museum tour & to ask Sol Wachtler about "prosecuting a ham sandwich" in a few hours...Today's NY Post (www.nypost.com) has on its front page a photo of the El Al LAX person who was murdered. She was extremely beautiful. -------------------------------------------------------- YOUNG ISRAEL This was a monthly by Louis Schnabel. Articles by Horatio Alger, Jr. appear in each issue. Didn't David Shulman or anyone go through all this stuff about 40 years ago? I just went through it, so I guess no one has? January 1873, pg. 23: CHANUKKAH HYMN (OED has 1893 for "Chanukkah" and M-W has 1864--ed.) January 1874, pg. 31: ...took a little soap-dish from his knapsack, filled it with water from the cistern, and placed it in the oven close to the _kashar_ dishes, whence it was hastily removed by the trembling hostess who was far from wishing all her dishes to be made _trefa_. January 1874, pg. 32: ...utensils for baking the _matzos_... April 1874, pg. 231: "This time, good people, you have harbored a genuine _Meshumed_" (baptized Jew). January 1875, pg. 11: What is _Campsor_? (...) Nor is it a Hebrew term, or one of that idiom peculiar to the German and Polish Jews--called _Judisch-Deutsch_. January 1875, pg. 17: THE BLIND MAIDEN: A STORY FROM THE OLDEN TIME By I. N. LICHTENBERG TRANSLATED BY ADDIE FUNK (This is a story of Germany's Jews, and most of what follows are from various chapters of this work, unless otherwise indicated. Is it in book form?--ed.) January 1875, pg. 22: ..."and I live in Baker street; every one knew my nurse, who went _shnorren_ (begging) to support us; the people called her 'lame Babette.'" (Many schnorrers are here. OED has 1892 for "schnorrer," where it was of course coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) May 1875, pg. 296 (Not BLIND MAIDEN--ed.): After the first part of the "Hagada" come the inevitable Pessa'h dumplings; and the _Afikoman_, which the child secretly pilfers from the father, and restores only for a promised gift, closes the meal. (OED has 1891, then 1892 ZANGWILL for "afikoman"--ed.) June 1875, pg. 344: "What a _Hutzpe_," (impertinence) thought Cuppel, "to call me son; I could be his father." (OED has 1892 for "chutzpah," where it was coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) June 1875, pg. 404: "_Sh'tuss_," cried Cuppel, "they will do nothing to you." (...) "...as you Christians have inflicted so many _mackoth_ (blows) on the Jews, God has brought it about that you punish and torture each other, for we Jews are too powerless to revenge ourselves." June 1875, pg. 405: "What a _Shidduch_," cried Cuppel contemptuously... August 1875, pg. 466: "Ah," thought Cuppel, "I've hit at the first shot, the man is a _gannov_ (thief,) and is glad to have found an accomplice in me." (...) "My, what _Stuss_," (foolishness), cried Cuppel, in astonishment... August 1875, pg. 467: "What a pity," answered Cuppel, "at least I would have no care for _makkoth_ (blows) on my _shubbetz_ (kaftan)." (...) "A nice _mishpa'ha_," cried Cuppel, quite enraptured. September 1875, pg. 535: ..."they have set fire to the city, the _meshumodim_, and they are coming this way." September 1875, pg. 540: "And where will you spend the _shiv'ah_?" (seven days of mourning) asked Cuppel. (OED has 1892 for "shiva," where it was coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) November 1875, pg. 658: For the rest, were I not a _Schnorrer_ by profession, you would have never discovered your Deborah, for only _schnorring_ strengthens the memory and makes people sharp, so that they always recognize a person they have once seen... December 1875, pg. 734: And our old acquaintances, Cuppel and David, held the _Chuppa_ (tent) over the heads of the bridal pair as the Rabbi pronounced the blessing over them and united them for life. (OED has 1876 for "chuppa"--ed.) (O.T. I GOT MORE ANTEDATES! HOLD THAT PLANE!!) From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 19:15:24 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:15:24 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: It may seem improbable, but the long vowel is what struck me when I learned it derived from grotesque. I had seen it only in print and assumed it was a back vowel. At any rate, I've heard it spoken often, always with a long vowel. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: grotty I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 17:23:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:23:12 EDT Subject: Eh, Landsmann? (1908) Message-ID: From YOUNG ISRAEL, 24 January 1908, pg. 260, col. 1: "Now play something," they said, speaking in German. "We are very merry and we wish to hear some real good German music. _Eh, Landsmann_?" (Barry Popik, off to Germany--ed.) From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 21:02:36 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I intended to say I had assumed the vowel was /A/ or /O/. However, the grottywise speakers I heard always used /o/. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: grotty I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 6 20:58:21 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:58:21 -0700 Subject: Hawaiianisms Message-ID: A few expressions I thought worth of note in my trip this week to Maui: 1. much mahalos - gets 247 hits on Google. KPOA (93.5) is currently running a commercial: "Much mahalos to our sponsors for bringing us today's news you can use." Interestingly, many mahalos gets 242 hits on Google. 2. "We just talk stories" - in a commercial on the same station by the HMSA (Hawaii Medical Service Association). The speech sounded spontaneous. This seemed an interesting twist on "to talk story." 3. hanai - Hawaiian adoption, but used also as a verb: "It was the custom to let a relative hanai, or adopt a child. Konia had promised Pauahi to her aunt Kina'u. After he [sic] aunt's death from mumps Pauahi returned to her birth mother, birth father and her hanai sister Lili'u." Found at a display on the Hawaiian royalty in the Old Lanai Courthouse. "H-anai (Hawaiian adoption)" - this spelling, where the dash indicates a macron over the following letter, found in a separate display at the Courthouse. 4. m-ak-ah-a - "The [ital] m-ak-ah-a, or fishgate, is still used as a means of harvesting fish from the fishpond." Also, in this display at the Courthouse: 'Huilua, which means "twice joined," is located where Kahana Stream meets Kahana Bay. The name most likely refers to the double [ital] m-ak-ah-a which fed fresh water into the pond.' 5. ahupua'a - "Hawaiian fishponds provided readily available fish, shellfish and [ital] limu (seaweed) for people within an [ital] ahupua'a." In the same display at the Courthouse: "Now part of Kahana Valley State Park, Huilua Fishpond is being restored as part of The Department of Land and Natural Resource's [sic] effort to create a cultural center within the Kahana Valley [ital] ahupua'a." This is glossed in the New Pocket Hawaiian Dictionary as "Land division usually extending from the uplands to the sea." Although italicized both times in this display at the Courthouse, it is not defined or explained anywhere in the display. 6. PUPUS & SIDES - sounds a bit redundant, but found on Kimo's restaurant menu. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 6 21:50:17 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:50:17 -0400 Subject: Brothel Creepers-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "We had the teenage attitude--surly lite, with a veneer of indifference. We had the threads--Edwardian-style draped jackets, drainpipe pants, and crepe-soled "brothel creeper" suede shoes." Michael Satchell USN&WR Jul 8 15, 2002 p57 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 6 22:03:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:03:52 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <000f01c22500$82b31f80$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though #his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a #'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 6 22:05:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:05:22 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <00cb01c22521$7b026c20$07d90044@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: #It may seem improbable, but the long vowel is what struck me when I #learned it derived from grotesque. I had seen it only in print and assumed #it was a back vowel. At any rate, I've heard it spoken often, always with #a long vowel. In the sixties I only heard it with a "short" vowel, as in "pot" or "grotto", and I have retained it that way. -- Mark A. Mandel (Vas you dere, Sharlie?) From Friolly at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 01:36:10 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:36:10 EDT Subject: grotty Message-ID: In a message dated 7/6/02 5:52:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > . I have > always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early > 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang > and > Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). > > Jonathon Green No way! I remember hearing 'grody' about 1972 (I remember the kid from whom and the grade I was in when I heard it--strange how we remember some things)--long before the Valley girls. They didn't invent it. Fritz From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jul 7 02:14:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:14:38 -0400 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. Jesse Sheidlower From kkmetron at COX.NET Sun Jul 7 05:40:07 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:40:07 -0700 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: Uhhhh..........I lent out my copies temporarily. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Sheidlower To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 7:14 PM Subject: "grody" This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. Jesse Sheidlower From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 08:51:24 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 04:51:24 EDT Subject: "grody" Message-ID: Just for the record... "The Totally Awesome Val Guide" from 1982 defines "grody" thus: "From grotesque. Dirty, messy, disgusting. Like have you ever looked at what's leftover on a plate of enchiladas and refried beans? Grody to the max!" (p.21) -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Jul 7 09:19:46 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:19:46 +0100 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:14 AM Subject: "grody" > This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before > someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record > _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in > this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. > > Jesse Sheidlower > Point, like, majorly taken. (And embrassingly so: I had the OED's 1968 Current Slang cite, albeit as 'groaty', on file, plus 1967 Wentworth and Flexner.). The plot therefore thickens. Because as Sixties teens in the UK we 'got' the Beatles and their supposed vocabulary before they hit the States. And we knew 'grotty';, and _never_, ever _grody_, _groaty_ or any other version. So: parallel/coincidental development? Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 14:04:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:04:44 -0400 Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin and a crazy keyboard that switched the Y and Z, for example. FLYKE--From LUFTHANSA MAGAZINE, July-August 2002, pg. 58, col. 3: ...their latest innovation, which recently hit the market, is the "flyke" (flying bike). PINK SHEEP--From the FINANCIAL TIMES, HOW TO SPEND IT, July 2002, pg. 14, col. 2: The self-styled "pink sheep" of the family..." GENERAL CHANG--From Dave Barry in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, July 6-7, 2002, pg. 20, col. 6: Who is General Chang? And isn't it kind of a weird honor to associate a military leader with a member of the poultry family not generally known for its courage? Would you want to be a soldier following General Chang into battle with the phrase "General Chang's chicken!" resonating in your mind? (This Barry guy is stealing my food jokes! Heck, he even stole my name!--ed.) From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sun Jul 7 15:35:54 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:35:54 -0500 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 17:39:23 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:39:23 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or meat, and some said 'brown gravy' Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is maintained almost universally by students here). Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ Dale Coye The College of New Jersey From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Jul 7 17:49:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >meat, and some said 'brown gravy' > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ (voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 7 18:22:16 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:22:16 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet > >sauces, but this meaning isn't there. I asked them what > >they'd call gravy for turkey, or meat, and some said 'brown > >gravy' > > > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" > >you mean a pizza. These two are familiar to me from my childhood in New Jersey. This sense of "gravy" is distinctly an Italian-American usage. I never heard it outside of an Italian-American home. It might be regional as well. "I was making ziti with the meat gravy..." AND "All day long the poor guy's been watching helicopters and tomato sauce. You see I had to drive over to Sandy's place, mix the stuff once and then get back to the gravy." ("Goodfellas," 1990) "Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught > >distinction is maintained almost universally by students > >here). > > > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > > The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not > sure of the vowel quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back > unrounded?--but the as /g/ (voiceless unaspirated) and > the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. These are also often heard on "The Sopranos." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 7 19:30:45 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:30:45 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <001f01c225e3$39dffe20$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #"Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This #last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you #can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) Here in Framingham, Mass. (between Boston and Worcester), there's a place called "Ty's Pies" whose products, to my disappointment, are pizza, not pastry. -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Jul 7 19:52:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excellent point. For civilized Americans (who make the caugh-cot distinction) the /a/ of at least many varieties of English English is much backer and rounder and could very well be placed at the vowel of "caught" rather than "cot." For Northern Cities Shifters (you know who you are!) of course this makes no difference since "cot" had already marched up to "cat" (nearly) and "caught" has dropped down to "cot." What a world we live in! Where are Peterson and Barney when we need them? dInIs >On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > >#I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though >#his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a >#'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. > >But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, >the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped >that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". > >-- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 21:29:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:29:05 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel Message-ID: I'm staying at the new Grand Hyatt, near the new SONY building in the new part of Berlin. (Marlene Dietrich Plotzed, I call it.) Then it occurred to me--this place is the same as Japan! Same new technologies and architecture. All SONY needs to do is change languages. KUNG FU SAUCE--Served at the Playoff American Sports Bar (www.play-off.tv). A Google search shows it's from McDonald's in Germany. Don't know what's in it, but I imagine the sauce has some kick to it. SWIMMING POOL--A cocktail found here. Most of the Google hits are in German. A "Swimming Pool" contains Smirnoff Vodka, Bacardi white, Blue Curacao, Ananassaft, Creme de Coco & Sahne. BAGELS--These things are everywhere. It was "beigel" in Europe in the 1800s, New York changed it to "bagel," and now it's "bagel" in Europe, also. McDonald's has a Philadelphia Bagel, a California Bagel, and a Texas Bagel. (Maybe "New York Bagel" is redundant?) Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 7 21:57:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:57:47 -0700 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language >variation: > >http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html Those are great! Thanks for sharing. I'll have to look for my photo of a shop in Cozumel that sold, among other items, "swechers." Rima From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jul 7 21:55:19 2002 From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:55:19 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, etc) Pete Farruggio At 10:39 AM 7/7/02, you wrote: >My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >meat, and some said 'brown gravy' > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > >Dale Coye >The College of New Jersey > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jul 7 22:24:28 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 18:24:28 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ ~~~~ Pete Farruggio adds: >The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern >Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, >etc) ~~~~~~~ A friend ( 2nd generation Sicilian, & her family), raised in Brooklyn, says /rih GAWTH@/. The @ is nearly inaudible. A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 7 23:23:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:23:00 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: <087C0BB4.4E8290C5.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the #Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. #It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or bison) milk? -- Mark M. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 00:13:09 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:13:09 EDT Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2002 10:05:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings from Berlin and a crazy keyboard that switched the Y and Z, for > example. This is the standard German keyboard---my father told me about encountering them back in World War II. One might think the Germans redesigned it because a "QWERTZ" keyboard sounded properly Teutonic, but in fact the letter "y" is used in German only for foreign words whereas the letter "z" is quite common. Hence the Germans swapped the letters "y" and "z" for their convenience. An even "crazier", but actually quite sane, keyboard is the one used on the Enigma crypto machine the Germans misused in World War II. The Enigma encyphered only the twenty-six letters of the "Roman" (actually English) alphabet, so it only had 26 keys, and the "y" and '"z" were reversed from the American QWERTY standard. However, there being no semicolon key, the typist's right pinkie would be hanging in mid-air, so the Germans moved the "p" key down from the top row to give that finger something to rest on. Perhaps that change for the convenience of the pinkie was the origin of "pink sheep"? > GENERAL CHANG--From Dave Barry in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, > July 6-7, > 2002, pg. 20, col. 6: > Who is General Chang? And isn't it kind of a weird honor to associate a > military leader with a member of the poultry family not generally known for > its courage? Would you want to be a soldier following General Chang into > battle with the phrase "General Chang's chicken!" resonating in your mind? Subj: Hollandaise Sauce (1828) Date: 04/17/2002 5:30:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (General Tso's Chicken): Thanks for that article. I hadn't forgotten about Shun Lee Palace. As I posted, there's someone who's collected thousands of Chinese menus. When I check out the collection, the menus will decide the issue. Dave Barry (you should sue to make him change his name) is a complete and utter rectum, who decided that the way to copy Fart Buchwald's success was to copy Buchwald's arrogance. The only thing I will grant him is his suggested Christmas presents a few years ago, which who included industrial-size toilet-paper rolls (the kind used at the New Jersey Turnpike rest stops) from Ojserkis Paper and Janitor Supplies of Pleasantville, New Jersey. The Ojserkis (the "j" is silent) family, whom I am acquainted with, made a chunk of money off this free advertisement. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 00:17:55 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:17:55 -0400 Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken In-Reply-To: <19e.4d9faab.2a5a3315@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #An even "crazier", but actually quite sane, keyboard is the one used on the #Enigma crypto machine the Germans misused in World War II. The Enigma #encyphered only the twenty-six letters of the "Roman" (actually English) #alphabet, so it only had 26 keys, and the "y" and '"z" were reversed from the #American QWERTY standard. However, there being no semicolon key, the #typist's right pinkie would be hanging in mid-air, so the Germans moved the #"p" key down from the top row to give that finger something to rest on. # #Perhaps that change for the convenience of the pinkie was the origin of "pink #sheep"? ????? -- Mark A. Mandel, feeling obtuse (about 150 degrees) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 00:47:31 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:47:31 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: All of these locutions are Italian-Americanisms common to immigrant populations from southern Italy. My family came from Northern Italy, and we and our compatriots did not use these sayings. The only one of these which has a somewhat broader usage is "pie," which many I-As use for pizza. But "gravy" for sauce is clearly a southern I-A-ism. The pronunciations of "ricotta" and "manicotti" said by dropping the final vowel is based on Neapolitan or other southern Italian dialects. Northern Italian immigrants pronounce these words the "proper" Italian way. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 00:59:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:59:34 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Dale Coye said: >>My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >>cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >>regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. >> >>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >>meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >>meat, and some said 'brown gravy' >> >>Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. >> >>Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >>maintained almost universally by students here). >> >>Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > >The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel >quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ >(voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. > Right, and the crucial feature is the part of Italy emigrants came from. Around here, it's Campania, but not specifically Naples--there are villages that can be named (at least by a former student who went there to research his senior essay on the origins of the English spoken by New Haven Italian-Americans) that provided much of the impetus for what is sometimes thought of as the Wooster Street dialect--e.g. (inter alia) "apizza", pronounced a-BEETS, as previously discussed here (which now designates the list, rather than New Haven). Does anyone know whether the "maniGAWT", "riGAWT"would be widespread throughout Campania or (even more generally) southern Italy (or, for that matter, Sicily, where a larger proportion of NYC Italian speakers would have come from, I believe)? And does anyone know where the majority of Trenton Italian-Americans would trace their origins from? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:06:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:06:46 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3311177A; >charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern >Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, >etc) Ah, that answers my earlier query. Sounds like general sound changes across the relevant region. I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? >> >>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- Could this be a calque on "ragu", which (in different places) has both "(meat) gravy/stew" and "tomato sauce for pasta" meanings? Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:18:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:18:51 -0400 Subject: anachronisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > >#"Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This >#last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you >#can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) > >Here in Framingham, Mass. (between Boston and Worcester), there's a >place called "Ty's Pies" whose products, to my disappointment, are >pizza, not pastry. > Speaking of pizza (we called them "pizza pies" in NYC in the 50's)-- I saw "A Beautiful Mind" last night and wondered about a couple of possible anachronisms, although as much sociological as linguistic. In the late 40's (1948, I believe) in Princeton, NJ, would it be likely for one student to ask another whether he wanted to go out for pizza (with no explanation)? In fact the implication is that a student just arrived at Princeton from West Virginia would immediately recognize pizza as what you go out for, which seems unlikely to me. And would it be likely for a young lady to vilify a young not-quite-gentleman as "Asshole" for his impertinent behavior? RHHDAS has a relevant cite from Mailer's _The Naked and the Dead_ from the same period, but I suspect it was more likely to have circulated in this era among soldiers than the grad students in mathematics (and their women friends) depicted in the film. larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 01:25:16 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:25:16 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/7/02 9:05:57 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? >> The pronunciation "abeets" is common in NY and I believe elsewhere in the US among southern Italian-Americans. However, the spelling "apizza", which one sees on pizza parlors in and around New Haven, I have never seen anywhere else. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:31:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:23 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ># Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the >#Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. >#It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. > >Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or >bison) milk? > buffalo milk mozzarella is standard in Italy and I assume the rest of Europe. I don't know if buffalo meat has caught on there yet. larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 01:57:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 7:23 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: #>Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or #>bison) milk? #> #buffalo milk mozzarella is standard in Italy and I assume the rest of #Europe. I don't know if buffalo meat has caught on there yet. Old World buffalo or New World bison ("buffalo" in non-zoological AmEng)? -- Just out of curiosity. -- Mark M. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:09:00 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:09:00 -0500 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro's spotting of "rock and roll" in the 1946 _Billboard_ article provides an interesting piece in the "rock and roll" puzzle, but I don't believe it necessarily demonstrates that "rock and roll" was already designating a genre of music, as, say, "rhythm and blues" did. The first clue is the isolated nature of this "rock and roll" attestation in direct reference to music. If it designated a genre of music in 1946, at least an occasional attestation in this or the following years might be expected to turn up. Also, "rock and roll" already existed in reference to vigorous (sometimes pulsating) movement. Milton "Mezz" Mezzrow's 1946 autobiography _Really the Blues_ (p.107) tells: "Dave Tough...was the only white drummer I ever heard outside of Ray Eisel, who had mastered that South Side beat. My mouth flew open wider than a trapdoor and Dave, bobbing up and down like a piston, rocking and rolling with a rhythm that wouldn't quit, grinned back at me." There is also a story plausibly bringing "rock 'em and roll 'em" back to 1927. I present it in my _Studies in Slang_, vol. 4, 1995, pp.68-69 (part of my article "Material For The Study of 'Rock and Roll'," pp. 61-73). In a 1986 letter to me a lady named Jane Robinson wrote: "...in the summer of 1927, when I was seventeen years old, I was visiting my mother's family in Philadelphia. My boy-cousin, a year or two older than I, bragged one morning about the night before. 'I was in a place where they really rock 'em and roll'em!' he said. I have never forgotten." In a follow-up letter she clarified how she was certain of the year and then added in response to my query: "'...really rock 'em and roll 'em.' I'm sure he was not referring to music. Rather, he was boasting how rough and tumble the place had been -- with noisy, tough, low-class people." Now back to the 1946 _Billboard_ attestation ("...It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration...Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat"), I believe the reference of "rock and roll music" here is to a lively, bouncy, pulsating beat. And considering that "rock" and "roll" in the jazz tradition both refer to copulation, the pulsating-beat reference would not be unexpected. I therefore believe that Alan Freed still deserves credit for having coined "rock and roll" in the sense we now use it. He was no doubt familiar with the words "rock and roll" from the 1948 second best-selling rhythm and blues record "Good Rockin' Tonight," which at one point contains the brief lyrics (shouted out): "Rock and roll around." In any case, he was seeking a racially neutral term for the music he was playing ("rhythm and blues" implied music that would interest primarily a black audience). "Rock and roll," with its implication of vibrant, pulsating music, fit the bill. Gerald Cohen >The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is >dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago >I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. > >Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the >"race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially >before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: > >1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar >Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and >roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar >Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. > >Fred Shapiro > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:54:12 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:54:12 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Fred Shapiro's spotting of "rock and roll" in the 1946 > _Billboard_ article provides an interesting piece in the "rock and > roll" puzzle, but I > don't believe it necessarily demonstrates that "rock and roll" was > already designating a genre of music, as, say, "rhythm and blues" did. I agree that the 1946 usage of "rock and roll" referring to a type of music was isolated or at least uncommon. Freed clearly still deserves credit for popularizing the term. But this is, as far as I can see, an antedating of the OED. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:59:57 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:59:57 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" Message-ID: I received this question from a colleague: > A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond > lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" > (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" > as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as > told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this > expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other > sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and > "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on > some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would > appreciate any information about the word. I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? Fred Shapiro From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 8 10:16:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:16:26 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in that form. I've heard kicking tail, kick a little tail, and, of course, kicking ass--for folks that need a little motivation. Rick |o| -----Original Message----- |o| From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf |o| Of Fred Shapiro |o| Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 23:00 |o| To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU |o| Subject: Query About "Kicktales" |o| |o| |o| I received this question from a colleague: |o| |o| > A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond |o| > lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" |o| > (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" |o| > as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as |o| > told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this |o| > expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other |o| > sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and |o| > "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on |o| > some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would |o| > appreciate any information about the word. |o| |o| I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? |o| |o| Fred Shapiro |o| From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 8 12:37:23 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:37:23 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On 7/7/02 17:55, "Peter Farruggio" wrote: > The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern > Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, > etc) and On 7/7/02 20:47, "Steve Boatti" wrote: > The pronunciations of "ricotta" and "manicotti" said by dropping the final > vowel is based on Neapolitan or other southern Italian dialects. Northern > Italian immigrants pronounce these words the "proper" Italian way. This a fact worth spreading. In New York City there are many non-Italian-Americans and Italian-Americans who believe "mootzuhrell" and "manuhcaught" are the *only* Italian pronunciations of such words, and they judge you disdainfully if you do not conform. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 8 12:41:11 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 05:41:11 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft > copy". This could count > as a retronym. I heard "soft copy" to refer to an e-document for the first time fairly recently. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 14:44:54 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:44:54 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: My mother and aunt, whose parents immigrated from Sicily, pronounce ricotta something like rih-GuOTH-uh, and manicotti something like mah-nih-GuOTH-ee. (That TH-sound is really something like an almost-unaspirated "d" to "th" affricate -- if that makes any sense -- and the "uo" is basically an open "o" with a soft "u" onset.) They grew up in Lawrence, MA. Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional variations of Italian-American pronunciation. Joanne Despres From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 8 14:51:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:51:37 -0400 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 11:36 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 8 15:11:45 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:11:45 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D296D26.14732.5DA543@localhost> Message-ID: My Mother in-law, whose parents also immigrated from sicily in the early part of last century, doesn't have the typical New Jersey pronunciation of manicotti and ricotta nor does she say gravy for tomato sauce. I wonder if there is some class issue here since she often talks about how her mother spoke "pure" italian not sicilian or something. BTW the so-called "New Jersey" pronunciation extends at least to south Philly. I always thought it was a way for the merchants in the Italian Market (9th and Christian streets) to make fun of the Society Hill types who sometimes shopped there by making them ask for things like "gabagool" (capicola). Ed --- "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > My mother and aunt, whose parents immigrated from > Sicily, > pronounce ricotta something like rih-GuOTH-uh, and > manicotti > something like mah-nih-GuOTH-ee. (That TH-sound is > really > something like an almost-unaspirated "d" to "th" > affricate -- if that > makes any sense -- and the "uo" is basically an open > "o" with a > soft "u" onset.) They grew up in Lawrence, MA. > > Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT > restaurant and > heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top > "mootzarella." > That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, > though I'm not > sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a > friend of mine, a > non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives > in the "Pasta > Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe > the Sopranos > episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own > mother's family > definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, > though. In any case, > the point is, I think there have to be a couple of > different regional > variations of Italian-American pronunciation. > > Joanne Despres __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 15:24:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:24:51 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Campbell's editorial is embarrassingly inaccurate in a number of ways. (E.g., DEFECATE is not a word borrowed from French; the language of 11th century England was English, NOT German; etc.) It would be a good exam question for a History of English course to ask a class to point out all the errors in this little piece. In a message dated Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Duane Campbell writes: >On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > >> My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed >> on >> to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get >> to >> be bad? > >A few months ago at a village council meeting a councilman in a Dickie's >shirt and Cat hat told a citizen to get her "fat ass" out of the room. >Our local newspaper was just stunned by these words and editorialized >about the collapse of civilization. I was allowed a guest editorial, >which I attach below. > >D > >++++++++++++++++ > >On September 27, 1066, William, Duke of Normandy, landed at Pevensey, in >the south of England. As a direct result of this thousand-year-old event, >The Daily Review in a recent story had to parenthetically mask a three >letter word (which, incidentally, was not a deleted expletive as reported >but rather a deleted noun) referring to a local resident's derriere and >its purported steatopygic condition. >Normandy is in France, and although William came from an immigrant family >(Norman is a corruption of Norsemen), he spoke French. After conquering >the German-speaking English (from Angles, a German tribe who had arrived >five hundred years earlier), William brought in his French cronies to >share in the spoils. There was no English language at this time, making >degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than >they are today. >It took two centuries for French to meld with German into English. >English is so rich in synonyms because it is a mixture of two different >languages, and often both French and German words for the same thing were >incorporated into it, but not necessarily with the same value. >During the formative centuries, the nobility spoke French, and German was >the language of the conquered peasants. As both groups came to speak the >same newly evolved language, words with French roots acquired a patrician >cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French >word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). >For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a >family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym >without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In >like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in >French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are >profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of >disapprobation originally describing the lower class). >For the same reason, today we eat pork from swine and beef from cows. >German speakers tended the farm animals and gave them their names, but >the French upper class ate the meat -- porc and boeuf as well as venison, >poultry, and mutton. >In the Bible the 3d Commandment proscribes using the name of God in >inappropriate ways. Aside from that, all other profanity is a cultural >phenomenon, essentially a tool of class discrimination. "Dirty" words >have no intrinsic taint. They have power only as we choose to give it to >them, and condemnation of certain words in favor of others meaning >exactly the same thing is historically elitist. >Had someone in Windham been asked to remove her derriere, it would have >been quite proper, even quaint, as far as the language is concerned. It >strikes me that a great deal of fuss is being made over a linguistic >anachronism. > From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 15:41:50 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: My mother and aunt do not call pizza "pie" or even "pizza pie" -- just "pizza." And I'd NEVER heard the word "gravy" used of tomato sauce until I lived in the Middle Atlantic. At first it struck me as a non-Italian's misconception of an unfamiliar food! Joanne From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 15:41:50 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <20020708151145.42989.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The more standardized pronunciations could be the result of class consciousness in many cases, I suppose. I don't think of my mother and aunt as particularly uncomfortable with their Sicilian roots, though. If they've changed their parents' Italianized pronunciations, it would probably be in the direction of anglicization, or maybe orthographic pronunciation, rather than improved Italianization. I notice that my mother, who's the younger of the two, has a slightly more assimilated pronunciation and outlook than my aunt (she married a non-Italian, for example, and she pronounces certain words like "sandwich" in the American fashion, whereas my aunt calls it a "SANGwich," a partly Anglicized variant of my grandmother's "sangWEEchu."). My impression of immigrant families in general is that the elder children tend to hew more to the native ways, linguistically and culturally, than the younger ones. Joanne From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Jul 8 15:44:48 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:44:48 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel Message-ID: Interesting to find bagels in Germany: in 1975-6 on a Fulbright in the federal republic, travelling all over, I never saw a one. Must be "The Americanization of Europe" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:40:14 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:40:14 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D297A7E.22107.91C48A@localhost> Message-ID: I'm old enough to remember when pizza was a novelty (the early 50s, at least in Oregon). It was something you got only in a full-service Italian restaurant, and it was called "pizza pie." The first I heard otherwise was when my aunt (who expected everyone to know as much of every foreign language as she did) expressed annoyance at the lyrics of a then-popular song, "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore," saying that "pizza pie" was "incorrect"--it should be just "pizza." Many years later I read somewhere (can't remember where now--Weinreich, Languages in Contact??) that the Italian community in Tampa, FL (I think), had reborrowed the item from English as "La Pizzapaia." Or maybe it wasn't actually reborrowed, but just borrowed, by a community whose roots lay outside the parts of Italy where pizza originated. Peter Mc. --On Monday, July 8, 2002 11:41 AM -0400 "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > My mother and aunt do not call pizza "pie" or even "pizza pie" -- > just "pizza." And I'd NEVER heard the word "gravy" used of > tomato sauce until I lived in the Middle Atlantic. At first it struck > me as a non-Italian's misconception of an unfamiliar food! > > Joanne **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:51:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:51:33 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D296D26.14732.5DA543@localhost> Message-ID: At 10:44 AM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > >Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and >heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." >That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not >sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a >non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta >Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos >episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family >definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, >the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional >variations of Italian-American pronunciation. > I've heard that [u] vowel a lot in south-central Connecticut, but it's usually mootsaRELL, without the final vowel. Somehow "mootzarella" sounds like code-mixing. And it's not infrequently truncated to just plain "moots". I'm sure Alice will concur. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 16:50:12 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:50:12 EDT Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/2002 7:33:05 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << At 6:49 PM -0400 7/3/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> > >as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" Not in "s/he really loves to have sexual intercourse with" >as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" Not in "s/he's a good (talented, enthusiastic...) sexual intercourse" or "that poor dumb sexual intercourse never knew what hit him/her" Demand "fuck"; accept no substitutions! >> Larry's first putative counterexample results simply from the fact that FUCK has a somewhat broader morphosyntactic distribution than the formal equivalent SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In this case, one would have to say, "He's good at sexual intercourse." But SEXUAL INTERCOURSE is still the formal equivalent. (The fact that it lacks in connotative force is irrelevant; that is usually the case between formal and informal equivalents, e.g., SHIT and EXCREMENT.) Larry's second putative counterexample is not a formal context, and therefore a formal equivalent certainly is inappropriate. Indeed, one could argue that FUCK in this context is a totally different meaning from FUCK 'sexual intercourse'--indeed, it means something closer to what SHIT or ASSHOLE or CLUCK would mean in this context. I would argue that the formal equivalent of FUCK in this example (as well as SHIT or ASSHOLE or CLUCK) is FOOL. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:54:44 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:54:44 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <6FA0FEF1.0E02EFBE.0CBB392C@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:24 AM -0400 7/8/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Campbell's editorial is embarrassingly inaccurate in a number of >ways. (E.g., DEFECATE is not a word borrowed from French; the >language of 11th century England was English, NOT German; etc.) It >would be a good exam question for a History of English course to ask >a class to point out all the errors in this little piece. > Several such errors come down to the indiscriminate use of "German" for "Germanic". larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 8 16:58:51 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:58:51 -0400 Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually intercoursing her. John Baker From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:00:16 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:00:16 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 10:44 AM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >> >>Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and >>heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." >>That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not >>sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a >>non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta >>Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos >>episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family >>definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, >>the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional >>variations of Italian-American pronunciation. >> >I've heard that [u] vowel a lot in south-central Connecticut, but >it's usually mootsaRELL, without the final vowel. Somehow >"mootzarella" sounds like code-mixing. And it's not infrequently >truncated to just plain "moots". I'm sure Alice will concur. > Not sure there...the folks at Scarpellino's all have /o/ not /u/, though they do truncate /motsarel/ to /mots/. I will say, though, that the /o/ isn't fronted as much as it would be in a native English lexical item. Alice From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:13:15 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:13:15 EDT Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:56:17 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually intercoursing her. John Baker >> Exactly, you can say HE IS HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER (or HIM). Formal and informal equivalents should not need to have exactly the same morphosyntactic possibilities. If we require exact morphosyntactic equivalence, wouldn't few pairs pass the test? ANUS and ASSHOLE come to mind, though even these two cannot always appear in the same environments. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:17:41 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:17:41 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:53:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Several such errors come down to the indiscriminate use of "German" for "Germanic". >> yes--for that matter, English is still "Germanic" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:35:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:35:29 -0400 Subject: formal equivalents for bad words In-Reply-To: <28.292b620d.2a5b222b@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:13 PM -0400 7/8/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:56:17 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The >alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having >sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually >intercoursing her. > > >John Baker >> > >Exactly, you can say HE IS HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER (or HIM). > >Formal and informal equivalents should not need to have exactly the same >morphosyntactic possibilities. It's more than a morphosyntactic distinction; there are correlated semantic distinctions that even extend to "X made love with Y" vs. "X made love to Y", the former a better (though not exact) match for "X fucked Y". This was all discussed in a classic late '60s paper by the late Quang Phuc Dong, later reprinted in the 1973 festschrift for McCawley, _Studies Out in Left Field_, and also in the paper "Pricks and Chicks" by Robert Baker, presumably no relation to John, which was reprinted in various anthologies on feminism and linguistics. The basic idea, although the examples may need tweaking to cover social and linguistic changes over the last three decades, is that the transitive verbs and their asymmetric prepositional analogues (X made love to Y), are interpreted with the subject as penetrator/actor/initiator (Quang and Baker argued that X had to be male, which is clearly wrong now and was probably wrong then) and the object as penetratee/passive partner (depending on how THESE terms are defined). Still not quite right, but the defensible claim is that the two terms in "X fucked/screwed Y" aren't taken to be interchangeable, while those in e.g. "X and Y fucked/had sexual intercourse" or "X made love with Y", "X had sexual intercourse with Y", etc. are much more likely to be. This is, Quang argued, why "Fuck you", "Now I'm really fucked", "They screwed you this time", and so on have the metaphorical extensions they do, while the "symmetric" expressions never have such understandings involving being mistreated, beaten, or taken advantage of. All of which argues that the distinction between "X fucked Y" and "X had sexual intercourse with Y" are not semantically interchangeable. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:42:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:42:24 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup Message-ID: Greetings again from Berlin. There's gotta be a good cabaret here somewhere. Cindy Adams of the New York Post has a nametag, but hasn't shown up. If she does, I'll ask her about her phrase "Only in New York" and tell her it's not hers. "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's his. He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put it on the front page, I asked for a specific date, and he said January 1985. Fred Shapiro and Andy Smith should let me know if they need the exact date for their books, and I'll look it up when I get back. HOT DOG MIT ROSTWIEBELSALZ UND GURKE--Found here. Costs 3.20 Euro. ALASKA-SEELECHS--Found at the Nordsee restaurant here. It does NOT come with "jojos." ANDY'S DINER & BAR BERLIN This is right opposite the new SONY building. It's gotta be good evidence that Andy SMith, author of KETCHUP and editor of the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, is leading a double life. Two stickers were in the window-- ANDY'S DINER HOME MADE KETCHUP ANDY'S DINER SPEXIAL KETCHUP ohne Konservierungstoffe Zutaten: Gewurze Tomatenmach Glukosesirup Brandweinessig modifizierte Starke From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 17:48:35 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:48:35 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #ANDY'S DINER SPEXIAL KETCHUP Should that be SPEIAL, filtered through the difference between a German and a US keyboard? -- Mark M. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:55:27 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:55:27 -0700 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > HOT DOG MIT ROSTWIEBELSALZ UND GURKE--Found here. Costs 3.20 Euro. Maybe Rostzwiebelsalz? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 19:38:08 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:38:08 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <10.2169de0c.2a5b2335@aol.com> Message-ID: While the inaccuracies in Duane Campbell's editorial might be serious to a college linguistics student, he does, of course, make a valid point about the prestige value of one family of English words vis-a-vis another (whether you identify those families as "French" or, more broadly, "Latin and Latin-derived," "German" or "Germanic"). Actually, I'd probably describe the inaccuracies as oversimplifications, which I assume were deliberate and intended to make his explanation intelligible to very unsophisticated readers who might not have the patience to wade through unfamiliar terminology. This is the way most adults talk to kids, which was probably why he sent it, right? Joanne From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 20:09:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:09:48 EDT Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/02 1:43:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" > I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's his. > He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put it on the > front page, This sounds to me like an incorrect quotation. There is a legal proverb "A prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.": It is a satirical description of the grand jury system. A lawyer (I think it was William T. Barker of Sonnenschein Nath and Rosenthal in Chicago, wtb at sonnenschein.com) told me that if the grand jury were not specifically mentioned in the Constitution (5th Amendment, of all places, and maybe elsewhere), it would long since have been declared unconstitutional. In this context "INDICT a ham sandwich" makes sense. I can't imagine a context in which "PROSECUTE a ham sandwich" is meaningful. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 21:09:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:09:01 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <3D29B1E0.5365.16A25AA@localhost> Message-ID: At 3:38 PM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >While the inaccuracies in Duane Campbell's editorial might be >serious to a college linguistics student, he does, of course, make a >valid point about the prestige value of one family of English words >vis-a-vis another (whether you identify those families as "French" >or, more broadly, "Latin and Latin-derived," "German" or >"Germanic"). Actually, I'd probably describe the inaccuracies as >oversimplifications, which I assume were deliberate and intended to >make his explanation intelligible to very unsophisticated readers >who might not have the patience to wade through unfamiliar >terminology. This is the way most adults talk to kids, which was >probably why he sent it, right? > Well, yes, but without trying to be overly picky, I would argue (as presumably Ron would) that even kids (at least older ones) might be able to appreciate the difference between saying cats are a kind of dog and saying cats are (like dogs) a kind of mammal. Even though "Germanic" is a superordinate rather than basic level language label, children of a certain age can be expected to recognize the usefulness of such superordinates ("vegetable", "furniture", "jewelry"), and to deal even with cases in which the superordinate label sounds troublingly like one of its basic level co-hyponyms. I think that's probably wiser than assuming kids can handle such unfamiliar terminology in some fields (relatives vs. parents, mammals vs. dogs) but not in others (Germanic vs. German), although I acknowledge that a one-sentence definition, probably involving the family tree metaphor, would be advisable. larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 21:43:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:43:54 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" > I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's > his. He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put > it on the front page, I asked for a specific date, and he said January > 1985. Fred Shapiro and Andy Smith should let me know if they need the > exact date for their books, and I'll look it up when I get back. Yes, I would be very interested in the specifics. Currently I have 1 Feb. 1985 in the New York Times for the "ham sandwich" quote. Of course, Jim Landau is right that it's "indict a ham sandwich," not "prosecute a ham sandwich." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 22:10:48 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:10:48 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take your point, though it seems to me that the contrast between German and Old English isn't quite as great as that between a dog and a cat. I'd guess the relationship between a Maine coon and a tiger would be more comparable. Now, if you were trying to describe a Maine coon to an aboriginal Asian whose exposure to the feline species was limited to tigers, it might not be so far out to call a Maine coon a kind of tiger. But I recognize that we're not talking about aborigines here, and that it's always best to assume that our tutees can handle the facts. Joanne From stamasi at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Mon Jul 8 23:25:28 2002 From: stamasi at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Susan Tamasi) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:25:28 -0500 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: My family from Princeton also has the /rih GAWT/, /man ih GAWT/ pronunciation. However, they are not from southern Italy. Many of the Italian immigrants in Princeton are from Petronella, Molaise which is about 2 hours southeast of Rome and 2 hours northeast of Naples. (In fact, Petronella and Princeton are sister cities). I've asked about the Italian-American population in Trenton (in the 50s and 60s), but my father only replied that they were "from all over." I do remember my family referring to "pizza pie," but it was infrequent (and usually done with a put-on Italian accent). The regular term was just "pizza." I didn't hear "gravy" until recently, and that was by a woman of southern Italian heritage who lives in Yonkers. -Susan Tamasi University of Georgia ---------Included Message---------- >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:59:34 -0400 >From: "Laurence Horn" >Reply-To: "American Dialect Society" >To: >Subject: Re: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? > >>Dale Coye said: >>>My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >>>cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >>>regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. >>> >>>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >>>meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >>>meat, and some said 'brown gravy' >>> >>>Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. >>> >>>Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >>>maintained almost universally by students here). >>> >>>Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ >> >>The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel >>quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ >>(voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. >> > >Right, and the crucial feature is the part of Italy emigrants came >from. Around here, it's Campania, but not specifically Naples--there >are villages that can be named (at least by a former student who went >there to research his senior essay on the origins of the English >spoken by New Haven Italian-Americans) that provided much of the >impetus for what is sometimes thought of as the Wooster Street >dialect--e.g. (inter alia) "apizza", pronounced a-BEETS, as >previously discussed here (which now designates the list, rather than >New Haven). Does anyone know whether the "maniGAWT", "riGAWT"would >be widespread throughout Campania or (even more generally) southern >Italy (or, for that matter, Sicily, where a larger proportion of NYC >Italian speakers would have come from, I believe)? And does anyone >know where the majority of Trenton Italian-Americans would trace >their origins from? > >larry > > ---------End of Included Message---------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 23:21:52 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 07/06/2002 8:37:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes an article which is very interesting, but which, in my opionion, is a red herring. > words with French roots acquired a patrician > cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French > word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). > For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a > family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym > without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In > like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in > French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are > profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of > disapprobation originally describing the lower class). (I don't care about "German" versus "Germanic" in the article. The meaning is clear and in a popular article probably more understandable to the lay reader.) Not entirely correct. According to MWCD10, "condemn" and "damn" both come via French from Latin "damnare". "Piss" is also from French---compare the name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". "bastard" also comes from French, but its euphemism "love child" is from two Germanic words. One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" but which do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. There must be some other explanation for bad words. Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the following five classes: 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a Greek rendering of the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). Note that the descriptive words "profane", "swear", and "oath" are also words from religion. It is interesting that there are "four-letter" euphemisms for the above: darn, heck, gol-darn or gosh-darn, jeez. 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should include "douche-bag" 3. Sex---make up your own list 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. In South Africa they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely "Kaffir", equally effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the word is from the Arabic). What categories 1, 2, 3, and 5 have in common is very simple---the subjects they are used to discuss are taboo, or more exactly there are many and various taboos about discussing them among English speakers. Hence there are sub-languages within English for discussing these subjects: one for male locker rooms, one (using words such as "derrierie") for polite socieity, etc. There may be a sub-language for female locker rooms, e.g. I know of a women's dormitory where one's period was called "George". I will leave it to the real linguists on the list to apply the proper jargon to this idea. As for 4), I will discuss it later if anyone's interested. Other languages have corresponding taboos and resulting sublanguages. Two examples:: Yiddish "schmuck" (penis and also used. lke English "prick", as a derogatory term for a man). French "merde" ("shit"). Some notes about 1) religion. The Commandment "You shall not take the Name of the Eternal your God in vain", when interpreted as a prohibition of blasphemy, is the only formally codified taboo in English. (I believe Catholics consider this to be the "Second" Commandment.) Swearing is also referred to as "cursing" (and its euphemism "cussing") which is interesting, because "cursing" adds a term generally applying to witchcraft rather than to Judaism or Christianity to a field for which most of the other descriptors are from religion. Conclusion: "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation among polite/civilized/proper people. > There was no English language at this time, making > degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than > they are today. A math major would have been even more useless. During the entire Plantagenet period there were only two mathematicians in all of England---Roger Bacon and Geoffrey Chaucer. - Jim Landau P.S. Rump Parilament? London derriere. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jul 9 00:40:14 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:40:14 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a separate category? Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau > Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the > following five classes: > > 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a > Greek rendering of > the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). Note > that the descriptive > words "profane", "swear", and "oath" are also words from > religion. It is > interesting that there are "four-letter" euphemisms for > the above: darn, > heck, gol-darn or gosh-darn, jeez. > > 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should > include "douche-bag" > > 3. Sex---make up your own list > > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most > obvious. In South Africa > they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely > "Kaffir", equally > effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the > word is from the > Arabic). From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 00:49:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:49:38 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 07/08/2002 8:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a > separate category? My intention was to file them under 3) sex, but since I said "make up your own list" you are free to do as you wish. Army definition of the "buddy system"----one buddy goes to town on a pass, gets two blow jobs,comes back to base and gives his buddy one. A colleague of mine had to be talked out of putting on a trouble report "queer electron that keeps blowing fuses". And then there is the friend of mine who insists that the plural of "recto" (he ia an amateur publisher) is "rectoes"---he refuses to consider "recti" because it is too easily interpreted as the plural of "rectum". - Jim Landau From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jul 9 01:34:31 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:34:31 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <3f.e04de6b.2a5b8d22@aol.com> Message-ID: I see. It seems that the social taboo on sex is different from that on homosexuality, so they should be covered separately. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau > > In a message dated 07/08/2002 8:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > > > Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a > > separate category? > > My intention was to file them under 3) sex, but since I > said "make up your > own list" you are free to do as you wish. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 02:08:59 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:08:59 EDT Subject: Read with pleasure: thanks for the wonderful new book Message-ID: To all ADS-ers and Friends, I'm delighted that Larry Horn appreciates the book mentioned below, and I thank him for all the praise. Aside from Allen Walker Read himself and Dick Bailey, no one did more to bring this book to our hands than Charles Carson, the Managing Editor of American Dialect Society Publications. Charles's work was extraordinary, even for him. Moreover, the unusual size of the book meant that he had to do somehow squeeze in all of the extra work--above and beyond all of his other duties. Charles has probably contributed more to the success of American Dialect Society publications in the past decade than any other person. I am grateful for all his good work. Sincerely, Ron Butters Chief Editor, American Dialect Society Publications In a message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:28 -0400 Larry Horn writes: >Subject: Read with pleasure: thanks for the wonderful new book >I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?) >will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that >just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of >English in America_). It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's >groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and >his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with >autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others, >various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the >impressive bibliography of AWR's publications. Kudos to all >involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard >Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate >student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in >bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen >Walker Read himself. > >Larry >> From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 9 02:37:02 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:37:02 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" , > dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes an article which is very interesting, but > which, in > my opionion, is a red herring. Thank you for bring this topic finally to content. > Not entirely correct. According to MWCD10, "condemn" and "damn" > both come > via French from Latin "damnare". True. But I am not certain that it hits the mark. "Damn" has always had a use in standard, socially acceptable English. There is a difference between "he was damned to a life of wandering" and "Damn you!" The coarse language of 12th century peasants is mostly undocumented. But I would suspect, with absolutely no academic credentials to support it, that the latter use of "damn" is more closely related to the contemporary German "verdammt," which is pretty much as bad as German gets, than to the usage in etymological dictionaries. > "Piss" is also from > French---compare the > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And "pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > "bastard" also comes > from > French, but its euphemism "love child" is from two Germanic words. But "love child" is a very recent coinage. I don't think it can be applied as an argument for the historical tradition of bad words. And "bastard" is not in itself a bad word, when used to describe a child born outside of marriage. The aforementioned William was called William the Bastard. As such it is descriptive. The pejorative nature of it comes not from the word or the derivation of the word but from the circumstances. > One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" > but which > do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. And I think that would be worth exploring. I know that, as an American living in Gemany and speaking passable German, it was very unsatisfying to try to swear in German. Though you could say things that were insulting, there were simply no words that carried the emotional release of "F--k you!" On a cultural level, the best you might do is something equivalent to "Go piss up a rope." > Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the following five > classes: > > 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a Greek > rendering of > the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). And I would point out that these are generally considered rather mild profanity, much of which can be said in prime time television. The exception would be "God damn," which is scripturally prohibited. > 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should include > "douche-bag" But urinate, defecate and ... well, whatever ... are perfectly acceptable in context. I think this supports my argument. > 3. Sex---make up your own list Copulate, vagina, phallus, fellatio, cunnilingus. All of which, in a mixed audience and in an appropriate context, would not be blinked at. Use the Germanic equivalents in the same conversation and you will not be invited back. Believe me, I know. > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of "schweinhund. " > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. A whole different situation. It is the cultural situation that makes the words bad, not the derivation. > What categories 1, 2, 3, and 5 have in common is very simple---the > subjects > they are used to discuss are taboo, or more exactly there are many > and > various taboos about discussing them among English speakers. I agree, and I disagree. (!) The religious taboo is very strictly defined: You shall not take the word of God in vain. And I specifically exempted that from my article. (2) You can talk about excetion in context with no difficulty. I am becoming an old person, and believe me, they talk about excretion. But in proper company they use words from Romance languages, not Germanic. Q.E.D. (3) Sex. Again, use Latin. Not German. (5) An entirely differently category. I will agree that the derivation of any particular word is less important than the modern social use of any given word. > there are > sub-languages within English for discussing these subjects: one for > male > locker rooms agreed. Male locker rooms tend to be coarse. ,>one (using words such as "derrierie") for polite > socieity, etc. Sorry, but I think you are making my point. > Some notes about 1) religion. The Commandment "You shall not take > the Name > of the Eternal your God in vain", when interpreted as a prohibition > of > blasphemy Well (and here I will make my sole claim of better credentials than the rest of you), no. It is closely related to the "false witness" rule and goes back to an ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d. > Conclusion: > "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation > among > polite/civilized/proper people. Exactly. The question is, How did they become taboo. The concepts are acceptable. It's the words. D From mkuha at BSU.EDU Tue Jul 9 02:35:42 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:35:42 -0500 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's nice that the "I'll buy almost anything" part of the sign is visible, because it provides a clue that the establishment doesn't sell hawks or hawk supplies, or have clientele consisting of hawks, but is actually a hock shop, probably owned by someone who participates in the low vowel merge. Thanks to everyone for the positive responses on- and off-list! -Mai > From: "Baker, John" > > What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? > > John Baker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] > > Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language > variation: > > http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html > > I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. > The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There > are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the > Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! ... > > -Mai From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 03:24:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:24:26 -0400 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") In-Reply-To: <20020708.223710.-11581.8.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0400 7/8/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" > >> "Piss" is also from >> French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". manikin-pis, in the heart of Brussels, so not technically French, but... Anyway, perhaps a clearer case is Fr. "pissenlit" for 'dandelion', literally piss-in-bed, from its presumed effect on the consumer. We borrowed the 'lion's tooth' rather than the 'piss-in-bed' metaphor, given the choice. > >Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My >mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would >never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no >inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And >"pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", "pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", "piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using "piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. It's related, of course, to the story about the soldier on leave who locked up his fuckin rifle, said goodbye to his fuckin sergeant, left his fuckin barracks, took a fuckin bus into town, went into a fuckin bar, had a few fuckin drinks, picked up a fuckin girl, took her to a fuckin hotel, and had sexual intercourse with her. (I'm sure others on the list could provide more eloquent tellings of the tale.) The moral is that you can't really use metaphorical extensions or compounds to determine how "bad" (or powerful) a word is for a given speaker. larry From kkmetron at COX.NET Tue Jul 9 07:57:56 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:57:56 -0700 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") Message-ID: Much obliged for shedding light on a passage from Finnegans Wake (p. 397, lines 21-25): ...prompt Marcus Lyons [New Testament Mark the Lion]...to pass the teeth... when it so happened they were all sycamore [sicker]...for all possabled.... The references are to "Lyons", "teeth", and (as Roland McHugh glosses as "pissabed" in _Annotations to Finnegans Wake_) "possabled." Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Bad words (specifically "piss") At 10:37 PM -0400 7/8/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" > >> "Piss" is also from >> French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". manikin-pis, in the heart of Brussels, so not technically French, but... Anyway, perhaps a clearer case is Fr. "pissenlit" for 'dandelion', literally piss-in-bed, from its presumed effect on the consumer. We borrowed the 'lion's tooth' rather than the 'piss-in-bed' metaphor, given the choice. > >Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My >mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would >never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no >inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And >"pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", "pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", "piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using "piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. It's related, of course, to the story about the soldier on leave who locked up his fuckin rifle, said goodbye to his fuckin sergeant, left his fuckin barracks, took a fuckin bus into town, went into a fuckin bar, had a few fuckin drinks, picked up a fuckin girl, took her to a fuckin hotel, and had sexual intercourse with her. (I'm sure others on the list could provide more eloquent tellings of the tale.) The moral is that you can't really use metaphorical extensions or compounds to determine how "bad" (or powerful) a word is for a given speaker. larry From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 9 07:45:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:45:34 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? I haven't. But since there haven't been many responses, I'll make a few observations, of questionable relevance. (1) "Kicktale" as usually encountered on the Web is an unusual variant -- likely just a spelling error, I think -- of "kicktail" which appears on brief glance to be a part of a skateboard (I think a part which can be kicked in performing various tricks). (2) "Kicktail" appears as a perversion of "cocktail" in at least one jocular context: "That last kicktail had a cock like a mule!" (3) I've heard occasionally the expression "cock story" meaning "dirty story": this usage I would associate with roughly the same dialects which would have "get some cock" = "get some pussy", but I think "cock" here is best approximated by "f*ck", i.e. "sex". The expression "cock tale" = "dirty story" (with double-entendre) is expected although I don't recall hearing it myself. Google search shows a number of instances of this "cock tale", mixed with possible errors for "cocktail" etc. "Kick tale" could be euphemistic for this (with another possible double-entendre, "kick-tail" = "kick-ass" meaning "really impressive" or so) ... assuming that the jokes in question are 'dirty' ones. (4) The superficial interpretation of "kicktale" would seem to be "fun story" (cf. "I got a kick out of that story") or perhaps "story with a kick [i.e. with a striking punchline]". I note that the book in question was not published in New York. I speculate that "kicktale" = "joke" might reflect some combination of (3) and (4) above. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 11:37:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:37:53 -0400 Subject: Managersalat Message-ID: Greetings again from Berlin. Professor Ruth Wedgwood of Yale Law School just spoke at this conference. (Gabriel Bach, who prosecuted Adolf Eichmann, was very moving.) I asked Wedgwood if she knew Fred Shapiro (Mr. Rock and Roll), and she said "Yes, of course. He's a good guy." My last post was made while someone was waiting for the computer. I apologize for spelling errors and the shorthand for "prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich." Wachtler said that his one regret was that he did say "corned beef." Cindy Adams arrived last night, and I've yet to speak to her about "Only in New York." Check her columns at www.nypost.com...NYC had the CowParade. Berlin is in its BearParade phase now. MANAGERSALAT--Seen at a mall here in Potzdammerploz. Is the Chef Salad a Manager Salad in Germany? AFRIKA QUEEN--Served at Mr. CLou, and it's Kiwi, Orange, Ananas, Banane. PIG EARS--I was told that this is a pastry name, like our elephant ears. PREGNANT OYSTER--Nickname for the architecture of the House of Cultures of the World Congress Center building. WASHING MACHINE--Nickname for the architecture of the House of the Chancellor. GOLDEN ELSIE--The Victory Column, a Berlin phallic symbol that's become a cruising area, according to an article in THE EX-BERLINER --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC.: USA TODAY was handed out at this Hyatt--in Berlin. Samuel G. Freeman, a professor of Journalism at Columbia University laments the demise of ROLLING STONE, but shows that he's incredibly out of touch. This got a laugh: Yet ROLLING STONE retains a paid circulation of 1.25 million, and the greatest publications in the United States--THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE WASHINGTON POST, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, THE NEW YORKER, THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY--recognize themselves as public trusts, not merely commercial enterprises. (THE NEW YORK TIMES is a public trust? That's why it tells its readers, against all evidence, that "Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? THE WASHINGTON POST is a public trust? Is that why its ombudsman won't even respond to me about a factual error that fails to recognize my work?--ed.) From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 9 12:48:32 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:48:32 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <10.2169de0c.2a5b2335@aol.com> Message-ID: For that matter, French is certainly the most germanic of the romance languages. --- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:53:40 PM, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << Several such errors come down to the > indiscriminate use of "German" > for "Germanic". >> > > yes--for that matter, English is still "Germanic" ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 9 14:11:26 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:11:26 -0400 Subject: ..Weather Service speaks our language.. Message-ID: The following is a note from the InfoWorld news service. It provides some information about the National Weather Service's use of speech technology, including the use of a human-generated voice. http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/08/020708hnnatweather.xml?0709tuam George Cole Shippensburg University From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 9 14:34:16 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:34:16 -0400 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on #the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import #on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", #"pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., #leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", #"piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given #the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using #"piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. On the TV series _The Waltons_ -- I think in an extra-long program, maybe a special -- one of the kids complained, "Mama, he called me a pissant!" I was at first shocked at the use of the word "piss" on prime time. It took me a minute to work out "pissant" (not a word I was familiar with) and realize that it didn't count as a case of "piss" for the fictional family, or apparently for the network censors either. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 9 14:42:25 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:42:25 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <20020708.223710.-11581.8.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Duane Campbell wrote: #On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" #> 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch # #Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of #"schweinhund. " I have seen, perhaps in MALEDICTA, the hypothesis that "son-of-a-bitch" originated as a slur on the addressee's mother, and that that is why it is so much stronger than "pig", "skunk", etc. As a subsequent supposition, that could be the source of the extra offensiveness of "bitch". -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 16:47:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:47:17 -0400 Subject: "Only in New York" disaster; War on Poverty Message-ID: "ONLY IN NEW YORK" DISASTER--Cindy Adams was hanging with the Wachtlers, and I had to break into a conversation to talk to her. I asked her where she got "Only in New York." "FROM MY HEAD!" she said. I told her that I researched the phrase and found earlier, and she told me to go away. I asked her if she knew who I was--did she see the Gersh Kuntzman articles? Did she know I was asked to write something (without pay) for the 200 year anniversary of the POST? Does she know I solved the Big Apple? She said she didn't know who I was, BUT SHE KNOWS NOW! Meanwhile, a piddly scholar from Yale Universary is nice to me and approachable. Go figure. I suppose all this puts me out of contention for the New York Post's Liberty Medal, which I deserve more than anyone. WAR ON POVERTY--Bernard Lander, Touro's founder, was in JFK's War on Poverty. Iasked about the phrase, which I found as early as the 1950s. Lander guessed it started with JFK's presidency. Well, he's wrong, too. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 9 16:55:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:55:11 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim Landau's categories of bad words: > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch I would expand this to all animals. That way you include such epithets as pig, ass (not arse), skunk, snake, and varmint. They may be milder, but they're still epithets. > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > In South Africa > they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely "Kaffir", equally > effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the word > is from the > Arabic). I would also expand this one to include slurs against any group. It would include slurs against religious groups, homosexuals, and women, not just ethnic groups. "Fag" and "queer" certainly belong here, not in the sexual category; they have no prurient appeal. Similarly, one could make a case for certain senses of "bitch" and "cunt" to be included here, instead of in the animal and sex categories (the primary senses clearly belong in those other categories though). From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 18:05:59 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:05:59 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Replying only to the points I find interesting: - In your guest editorial you used "German" when "Germanic" or "Anglo-Saxon" was the correct term. I think I see why you did it (and I agree with your decision.) First, you wanted to shock your readers into doing some thinking about a subject they had never heard of, and labelling "English" as "German" is rather shocking. Second, your average reader, if pressed, would define "Anglo-Saxon" as "belonging to the White Citizens Council" and "Germanic" as "made by Volkswagen." Where I say that your editorial went wrong (or was a red herring, i.e. irrelevant) was in your taking the well-documented pig-cow-sheep/pork-beef-mutton dichotomy and using it as the sole explanation for a broad range of behavior patterns on the part of English-speaking people. In a message dated 7/8/02 10:34:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > "Damn" has always had a > use in standard, socially acceptable English. There is a difference > between "he was damned to a life of wandering" and "Damn you!" The coarse > language of 12th century peasants is mostly undocumented. But I would > suspect, with absolutely no academic credentials to support it, that the > latter use of "damn" is more closely related to the contemporary German > "verdammt," which is pretty much as bad as German gets, than to the usage > in etymological dictionaries. A good point. How strong is the evidence linking English "damn" to French as in "ame dammee" rather than to German as in "verdammt"? I have no idea. > > "Piss" is also from French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". MWCD10 says no, but I wonder if the English euphemism "pee" comes from the "Pis" above, which I think is pronounced /pee/ rather than /pis/. > "bastard" is not in itself a bad word, when used to describe a child born > outside of marriage. The aforementioned William was called William the > Bastard. As such it is descriptive. The pejorative nature of it comes not > from the word or the derivation of the word but from the circumstances. This is my point, that the local circumstances (i.e. the type of audience, which in turn implies the applicable set of taboos and the sublanguage to be used) are far more important than the pig/pork dichotomy that you emphasized. > > One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" > > but which > > do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. > > And I think that would be worth exploring. I know that, as an American > living in Gemany and speaking passable German, it was very unsatisfying > to try to swear in German. Though you could say things that were > insulting, there were simply no words that carried the emotional release > of "F--k you!" On a cultural level, the best you might do is something > equivalent to "Go piss up a rope." Yiddish and German are mutually comprehensible languages, yet they are spoken by people of different cultures. This, it appears to me, is reflected in their respective vocabularies of bad words. As was pointed out on this list, "hmooze" is a bad word in German but not in Yiddish. "Shmuck" (which has both meanings of English "prick") is a bad word in Yiddish. What about in German? In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test bed for investigating why bad words are bad. > > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch > > Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of > "schweinhund. " In an otherwise long-forgotten book, I ran across the following theory: dogs, since they eat the corpses of people slain on battlefields, are widely used as a metaphor for disgust. Hence German "schweinhund" and Arabic "dog of an infidel". However, to Anglo-Saxons the dog was "man's best friend", a metaphor for nobility and faithfulness. Hence the Anglo-Saxons, presumably out of sexism, transferred the degrading metaphor to the female dog, the bitch, and needing a similar metaphor to apply to a male human, invented "son of a bitch". I have no idea of the evidence for this theory---it could be a folk etymology---but it explains everything plausibly. > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > > A whole different situation. It is the cultural situation that makes the > words bad, not the derivation. The last sentence is my point exactly. > (!) The religious taboo is very strictly defined: You shall not take the > word of God in vain. and > Well (and here I will make my sole claim of better credentials than the > rest of you), no. It is closely related to the "false witness" rule and > goes back to an ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d. Nobody knows what it is that this Commandment is prohibiting. On the theory that the purpose of Biblical exegesis is to make the literal words of the Bible relevant to people today, the best interpretation is that the Commandment prohibits perjury. Why then is perjury explicitly prohibited in the "false witness" Commandment? Another theory is that the Commandment spells out the "ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d." (or, as you just demonstrated, writing the full name of the Deity). This is more than a mere taboo. The true Name of the Deity is, in Jewish tradition, a very powerful magical item---e.g. the Golem legend. In fact, in Jewish tradition and to a lesser extent in Christian tradition, the Name of the Deity is the Deity Him/Herself. Hence the Christian prayer "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away, blessed be the Name of the Lord". There is a timing problem with this interpretation. The Ten Commandments were well-known by the time of Jeremiah, and probably long before. On the other hand, the supposedly taboo Name was commonly used enough to have been picked up by Gentiles---"Yahveh" is the pronunciation recorded on several Green and Latin documents. Still another theory is that the Commandment prohibits one from petitioning the Deity (and what else is a prayer?) without paying out of your pocket for a priest to perform a sacrifice. And since burnt-offerings have been a historical curiousity since the days of Josephus, the only relevance of this Commandment to modern Christians is "Thou shalt donate to the collection plate." (Jews do not have collection plates---they feel it violates the commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". > > Conclusion: > > "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation > > among > > polite/civilized/proper people. > > Exactly. The question is, How did they become taboo. Exactly. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 18:33:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:33:40 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <162.1060b0e0.2a5c8007@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0400 7/9/02, James A. Landau wrote: > > > "Piss" is also from French---compare the >> > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". > >MWCD10 says no, but I wonder if the English euphemism "pee" comes from the >"Pis" above, which I think is pronounced /pee/ rather than /pis/. > Actually, as I remarked earlier, "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a mostly Flemish-speaking city. I don't know if the written name counts as Walloon (francophone Belgain) or as a Flemish (=Dutch) transliteration (note also the largely un-French "k"), but the "pis" is definitely [pis] phonetically, as the standard French "pisse" would be pronounced. No relation to the French word "pis" meaning 'worse'. Tant pis. (which is *not* a comment on a surfeit of the bodily effluvium or references thereto) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 18:36:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:36:18 -0400 Subject: Corpsicles in the news Message-ID: thanks to John Henry Williams, son and heir of the late immortal (oxymoron watch!) Ted Williams, who had the latter's body frozen and shipped to Arizona, not necessarily in that order. Haven't noticed the use of "corpsicle" in the news reports, though. Tant pis, again. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 18:47:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:47:25 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 1:01:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > > I would also expand this one to include slurs against any group. I agree, but there isn't any convenient two-word term. Even your phrase "slur against a group" is ambiguous. Words like "fag" and "queer" are, to coin a term, "direct slurs". But there are also indirect slurs, such as addressing a Native American with the word "How". Another indirect slur, which I have seen on this very list, is to use the term "sci-fi" to a science fiction fan. Them's fighting words. I could have used "fighting words", but that term is so broad that I would have had to do as much description using that term as if I hadn't used it. There are also non-verbal group slurs. At one time there was a deprecating stereotype of African-Americans eating watermelons. (If memory serves, this stereotype was fairly frequent in Betty Boop-era animated cartoons.) It got so that many African-Americans were offended by being offered watermelon. (This is documented in the McDavid edition, and maybe earlier editions, of Mencken's American Language.) However, I asked one African-American if he minded that watermelon would be served at a picnic he was invited to, and he didn't know what I was talking about, so maybe this slur is ancient history. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- Now to the important question: using slurs and other bad words to ferret out (or is ferret a slur?) the taboos and other social patterns that make them offensive. "How" and watermelons are well-known and it is easy to see how they became offensive. "Sci-fi" would provide an interesting case study, since the group involved is small (numbered in the thousands) and well-defined. The offensiveness of the term is due to the way in which the outside world confuses Hollywood science-fiction movies (which until Star Trek were almost uniformly bad) with written science fiction (the object of the fan's devotion, and arguably of much better quality than the Hollywood junk.) - Jim Landau (who gets hot under the choler whenever he hears "sci-fi") - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:00:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:00:48 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 2:32:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and > it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a > mostly Flemish-speaking city. Correction accepted. (I don't dare say "I stand corrected") Long ago, before the days of a computer in every pot and a chicken on every desk, I decided to razz a male coworker by programming the office computer to display a nude female whenever a certain option was selected, knowing he was by far the most common user of that option. Unfortunately the first person to select that option was a female who hadn't used that option in weeks. With malice aforethought she kept silent until the next team meeting and then "casually" mentioned the "sexist software". I satisfied her by offering to program a display of the Manikin-Pis ("The Little Boy", she called it) if she would provide me with a picture, but she never got around to it. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:06:34 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:06:34 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <162.1060b0e0.2a5c8007@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Yiddish and German are mutually comprehensible languages, yet they are spoken > by people of different cultures. This, it appears to me, is reflected in > their respective vocabularies of bad words. As was pointed out on this list, > "hmooze" is a bad word in German but not in Yiddish. "Shmuck" (which has > both meanings of English "prick") is a bad word in Yiddish. What about in > German? Schmuse is somewhat negative in German but I might not characterize it as "bad". The dictionary at my desk (Cassell's) has "flatter, soft-soap (a person) gossip, chatter, talk-nonsense". "Schmuck" in German is "ornament, jewels, decoration,", etc. My dictionary doesn't list any meaning which would be similar to Yiddish "shmuck". > > In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's > two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test bed > for investigating why bad words are bad. Of course, there are a number of Yiddishists who consider German and Yiddish to be two separate languages. This reminds me of a joke/story I heard once and only remember the outlines. There is an old Russian/Ukrainian Jew who happens to be in Germany and he is robbed or something and is taken before an official who claims he can understand Yiddish because it's the same as German. The old man describes what happened in Yiddish but uses an extremely high percentage of Slavic loanwords and expressions and the official, of course can't understand him at all. The punch line is the old man leaving, complaining "What's the matter with that guy? Can't he speak German". [If anyone knows the long version of this joke, I'd be grateful to have a copy, which being in Yiddish, should be probably sent off list.] > In an otherwise long-forgotten book, I ran across the following theory: > dogs, since they eat the corpses of people slain on battlefields, are widely > used as a metaphor for disgust. Hence German "schweinhund" and Arabic "dog > of an infidel". I don't think the Arab dislike of dogs is related to their eating corpses on battlefields but are just among a number of unclean animals held in disregard. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:16:59 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:16:59 EDT Subject: Managersalat Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 7:39:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > THE WASHINGTON POST is a public trust? Is that why its ombudsman won't even > respond to me about a factual error that fails to recognize my work? "Washington Post ombudsman" is an oxymoron. I was in Washington DC when the Post decided as a public relations gimmick to establish a position called "ombudsman". The first incumbent---I have mercifully forgotten his name---did absolutely nothing except every so often to lambaste the Pentagon's chief spokesperson and occasionally to write an article on the op-ed page defending the Post from criticisms. Not once did he ever admit the Post was at fault. It appears from your description that the tradition continues. By comparison there was a Post columnist whom I particularly disliked. I once wrote him a letter about the mistakes he had made in a certain column. The man wrote me back a personal letter which, while wrongheaded, even I will admit was respectful. That is to say, the Post's own standards are far below those of one of its most rabidly partisan mudslinging columnists. You may quote me if you wish. - James A. Landau From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jul 9 19:26:54 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:26:54 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the nine years I lived in southern England, I only ever heard the vowel in "grotty" as /a/, and the /t/ was distinctly pronounced. "Grody" with the "long" vowel was widespread in my Seattle schools in the 1970s, and used pretty interchangeably with "gross" in the 'disgusting' sense. Wendalyn Nichols At 03:52 PM 7/7/02 -0400, you wrote: >Excellent point. For civilized Americans (who make the caugh-cot >distinction) the /a/ of at least many varieties of English English is >much backer and rounder and could very well be placed at the vowel of >"caught" rather than "cot." > >For Northern Cities Shifters (you know who you are!) of course this >makes no difference since "cot" had already marched up to "cat" >(nearly) and "caught" has dropped down to "cot." What a world we live >in! Where are Peterson and Barney when we need them? > >dInIs > > > >>On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: >> >>#I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though >>#his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a >>#'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. >> >>But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, >>the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped >>that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". >> >>-- Mark A. Mandel From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Jul 9 19:20:08 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:20:08 -0400 Subject: Read's "Milestones" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Because there were so many books in the review box for me this time 'round, there are two installments of Safire's summer books column. The first hit Sunday 7.7. The second will hit 7.21. "Milestones" is included. A little help in the editing/ fact checking process requested ... A.W. Read just turned 96 in June - correct? Thanks, Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:23:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:23:48 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 3:07:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's > > two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test > bed > > for investigating why bad words are bad. > > Of course, there are a number of Yiddishists who consider German and > Yiddish to be two separate languages. By the old criterion, "a language is a dialect with an army", German is a separate language and not a dialect of Yiddish! Seriously, it is by mutual agreement that German and Yiddish are separate languages. Their using different alphabets makes them comparable to Serb and Croat. I only said "one-language-two-cultures" to contrast with the situation in post-Conquest England. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:26:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:26:10 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <6f.2a2236ec.2a5c8ce0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:00 PM -0400 7/9/02, James A. Landau wrote: > > >Long ago, before the days of a computer in every pot and a chicken on every >desk, I decided to razz a male coworker by programming the office computer to >display a nude female whenever a certain option was selected, knowing he was >by far the most common user of that option. Unfortunately the first person >to select that option was a female who hadn't used that option in weeks. >With malice aforethought she kept silent until the next team meeting and then >"casually" mentioned the "sexist software". I satisfied her by offering to >program a display of the Manikin-Pis ("The Little Boy", she called it) if she >would provide me with a picture, but she never got around to it. > He's all over the internet. And if you ever get to Belgium you too may end up with not only photos and postcards but, in my case, a deck of Manikin-Pis playing cards in effulgent off-pink. L From Rose.Wilcox at PINNACLEWEST.COM Tue Jul 9 19:27:34 2002 From: Rose.Wilcox at PINNACLEWEST.COM (Wilcox, Rose (ZB5646)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:27:34 -0700 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: << > I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft > copy". This could count > as a retronym. I heard "soft copy" to refer to an e-document for the first time fairly recently. Ed>> Really? I recall this from as early as '86, and a quick poll of my coworkers (admittedly all computer geek types) draws agreement with that time frame. My most common use of the term (as a technical writer) would be to describe my deliverable as in "Do you want it soft copy, hard copy, or both?" Rosie Wilcox From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:33:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:33:07 EDT Subject: Managersalat (with a reference to the "bad words" thread) Message-ID: And shouldn't ROLLING STONE qualify as a "public trust"? After all, it was ROLLING STONE that got Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz canned for telling an ethnic joke. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:49:17 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:49:17 -0400 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: A search of Google groups returns a message that mentions soft copy media, from 6 JAN 1982 -- "Formatting systems are concerned with the physical layout of a document for hard and soft copy media." http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22soft+copy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1984&selm=anews.Aucb.273&rnum=1 ===================== And, "a soft copy of the PC-TALK users manual (To print out)", from 7 DEC 1983 -- http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22soft+copy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1984&selm=14404%40sri-arpa.UUCP&rnum=2 =============== George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 06:44:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:44:26 -0400 Subject: Falafel in Wednesday's NY Times Message-ID: A story about falafel is in today's New York Times. As you probably know, I researched the earliest cites for "falafel." I was never interviewed. Is this going to be a New York Times policy? Do they realize that I basically do this for free? Do they realize that I live in New York? If I do every food and antedate every word everywhere, will I get any respect anywhere? OFF TOPIC: The ONO president has replied to me about his ombudmen getting "Windy City" wrong and not even responding to me. I can't run the attachment here, but he basically said that he couldn't be bothered. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 16:12:59 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:12:59 -0400 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: I'm skeptical of the theory that the Muncie Hawk Shop is a hock shop. It seems much more likely to me that "hawk" is used here in the sense of peddling goods aggressively, a meaning that is unrelated to "hock" and, in my experience, now has little association with traveling peddlers. I heard the term frequently in my childhood in southern Kentucky in the 1960s and 1970s but do not recall hearing it in Massachusetts or Maryland. I called the Muncie Hawk Shop, and they confirmed that they buy and sell goods and do not hock or pawn them. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Photos for sociolinguists It's nice that the "I'll buy almost anything" part of the sign is visible, because it provides a clue that the establishment doesn't sell hawks or hawk supplies, or have clientele consisting of hawks, but is actually a hock shop, probably owned by someone who participates in the low vowel merge. Thanks to everyone for the positive responses on- and off-list! -Mai > From: "Baker, John" > > What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? > > John Baker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] > > Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language > variation: > > http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html > > I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. > The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There > are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the > Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! ... > > -Mai From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 10 17:35:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:35:40 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Actually, as I remarked earlier, "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and #it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a #mostly Flemish-speaking city. I don't know if the written name #counts as Walloon (francophone Belgain) or as a Flemish (=Dutch) #transliteration (note also the largely un-French "k"), but the "pis" #is definitely [pis] phonetically, as the standard French "pisse" #would be pronounced. MW OnLine says of the English "manikin": Etymology: Dutch mannekijn little man, from Middle Dutch, diminutive of man; akin to Old English man Date: circa 1536 -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 10 17:38:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:38:54 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <105.1857bbe9.2a5c89bd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # Another indirect slur, which I have seen on this very #list, is to use the term "sci-fi" to a science fiction fan. Them's #fighting words. It depends. This is an ever-green topic, like a weed, on the rec.music.filk newsgroup, and probably lots of other sf-related groups that I don't follow. (Filk is the music of sf fandom.) Lots of us think that the argument is old and pointless, and say "chacun a` son gou^t". Some reserve the name "scifi", spelled thus and pronounced "skiffy", for certain styles or content. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 18:12:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:12:09 -0400 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin. I leave for Vienna tomorrow...No confrontations with a New York Post gossip columnist today...FUN FACT: This Hyatt is opposite the State Library, which has all six volumes of Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG. Nothing too interesting in the cookbook department, though. JEWISH MUSEUM Today was spent at the Jewish Museum and a Concentration Camp. These Jewish, European delicacies were spotted at the Museum Cafe: NEW YORK DELI HOT-DOG VOM GEFLUGEL 2 euro BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME 2.50 euros 100 ml 7.40 euros 500 ml I told my tour guide that I was especially interested in the food section, so of course he walked right past it without pointing it out. Story of my life. It's an interesting museum, but the food section is not part of that interest. It occupies only a display case or two--this in Europe's most famous and most visited Jewish Museum? (There were no historical dreidels either, but that's another story.) On book was displayed--DIE PRAKTISCHE ISRAELITISCHE KOCHIN (Hamburg, 1890) by Rebekka Herte. There was one NOTEBOOK WITH RECIPES FOR KOSHER DISHES, dated March 25, 1884. There were some knosher knives from the 19th century. And that's about it. The bookstore sold THE BOOK OF JEWISH FOOD by Claudia Roden. This is not good. MISC.: BURN OR BULLSHIT--Seen an an advertising sign over a roadway. DOUBLE VICTIM--Israel Singer of the World Jewish COngress said he coined this term. ANOTHER FUN FACT--I'm typing for five minutes, and six people have asked if I'm done. I'M DONE!!!!!!!!! From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 19:10:46 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:10:46 EDT Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: In a message dated 07/10/2002 2:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME > 2.50 euros 100 ml > 7.40 euros 500 ml In a message dated 07/10/2002 2:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 10 19:17:27 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:17:27 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: <1a0.4f1b269.2a5de0b6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World > War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe > that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 20:01:11 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, just of the pronunciation. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM To: American Dialect Society Cc: Baker, John Subject: Re: hawk/hock Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] (with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). (I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking about for some time. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 10 20:51:44 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, July 10, 2002 12:17 PM -0700 "A. Maberry" wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >> >> As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during >> World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to >> believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu Yes, but "Eiscreme" is also seen. I don't remember hearing it used in speech, but if I'm not mistaken, a brand whose little flags are all over the place advertises its product as "Eiscreme." The current mania of the German language for borrowing foreign words, even where perfectly good German words already exist, has lasted for decades now and rages on undiminished. True, most of the borrowings are from English, so Eiscreme isn't such a clear-cut case, but the overall trend and the existence of English "ice cream" probably favor it. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 10 20:53:18 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:53:18 -0400 Subject: baseball parks and etymologies Message-ID: "Baseball Parks" ((c) 2000), a show on the History Channel, part of the series Modern Marvels, asserts the following [my notes in brackets]. Some (but not all) of this has been noted before by Barry Popik and others. red hot -- used by pioneering concessionaire Harry Stevens [1855-1934] of his hot dogs in buns, said to emphasize the warmth of the hot dogs his vendors served at New York's Polo Grounds [This is the old chestnut, already widely challenged here and elsewhere, though oft repeated. btw, OED has 1892 for _red hot_ 'hot dog'. The show also relates the dachshund/cartoonist story about _hot dog_. For a rendition of the Michael Quinion summary of the true and false etyms of _hot dog_, see http://www.intheweedz.com/Newsbites/History%20of%20the%20Hot%20Dog.htm] stadium -- first applied to a baseball facility in the name Yankee Stadium [opened 1923. This may well be true; see OED at _stadium_ 2, which cites the first use term for a general sports facility in 1901, at the Pan-American Exposition at Buffalo] skybox -- luxury enclosed seating, introduced for the Houston Astrodome [See also next item. MW has 1974 for _skybox_. See http://www.charlieanderson.com/astrodome.htm for hearsay evidence that suggests a 1965 date. Also, Pres. G.W. Bush is quoted as saying that his mother took him to the first game at the Astrodome in 1965, and said to him at the time that she had seats called "skyboxes"; see http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/070600/gen_0706004450.shtml] Astroturf -- developed for the Astrodome [opened 1965, named to recognize Houston's aerospace industry. The team's name was changed then from the Colt .45s to the Astros], which had a grass field at first. The grass died when the dome had to be covered with acrylic panels to reduce sun glare, and artificial grass, dubbed Astroturf [developed by Monsanto], was then installed [OED has 1966] exploding scoreboard -- the Astrodome had one, with an artificial light and sound show. [Perhaps the first artificial one, but not the first. Baseball owner/promoter Bill Veeck had real fireworks for home runs at Chicago's Comiskey Park. He introduced this "exploding scoreboard" in 1960, after he bought the White Sox. Earlier, when he owned the Cleveland Indians (1946-50), Veeck introduced the use of fireworks at major league baseball games.] OED does not have _skybox_ or _exploding scoreboard_ Frank Abate From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 10 21:04:25 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:04:25 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: <523382.3235297904@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: P.S. An amusing footnote to my post about foreign borrowings in German. A few months ago I heard an interview on NPR with somebody (I think a journalist) in Germany who was being mildly critical of the "Trend" for German to borrow foreign words even where native ones already exist. For instance, he said, why does everything have to be an "Event" nowadays? Why not use a perfectly good German word like "Spektakel," he suggested without a trace of irony. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 10 22:25:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:25:15 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse "pawning" with "bird of prey"? dInIs >Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk >Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, >just of the pronunciation. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM >To: American Dialect Society >Cc: Baker, John >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] >(with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I >have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the >clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the >two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. > >On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the >opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). >(I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) >Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell >it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked >my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking >about for some time. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 23:51:14 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:51:14 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in "Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse "pawning" with "bird of prey"? dInIs From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 11 00:14:38 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:14:38 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a punshop, isn't it? Unless the owner's surname is Hawk or something like that (and maybe even if it is), I suppose the name "Hawk Shop" is a play on "hock shop"? I don't know whether that implies anything with respect to phonetic variations. The slang term "hawk" = "steal" is, I suppose, basically a variant of "hock" = "steal" ... or vice versa ... and this connection might be relevant, perhaps? -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 00:35:02 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:35:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Maybe, but if you're running a second-hand store I would think that you would try to avoid any association of your shop with a pawnshop, and an association with stolen goods would be even more problematic. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock It's a punshop, isn't it? Unless the owner's surname is Hawk or something like that (and maybe even if it is), I suppose the name "Hawk Shop" is a play on "hock shop"? I don't know whether that implies anything with respect to phonetic variations. The slang term "hawk" = "steal" is, I suppose, basically a variant of "hock" = "steal" ... or vice versa ... and this connection might be relevant, perhaps? -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Jul 11 01:50:58 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:50:58 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I lean towards my original assumption, when I pointed this new Muncie store out to Mai and to one of my undergrad Language and Society classes. "Hawk", in the sense of "sell in the street or door to door" isn't a very common verb in this area. Many of my Central Indiana students didn't know that meaning. They knew of the bird and the act of clearing one's throat noisily, but not this form of commerce. Knowing the owners and employees of this shop, I tend to doubt that they know it either. The place is something of a used equipment store. The owners do, as you thought, pronounce "hawk" and "hock" the same, though, as one would expect of natives of a low back vowel merger region. My guess is that the word "hock", which is also not particularly common around here--many of my students didn't know that one either--was confused with its homophone "hawk" and used loosely to mean "sell". Herb Stahlke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:51 PM Subject: Re: hawk/hock > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in "Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > > Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse > "pawning" with "bird of prey"? > > dInIs From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 11 02:19:38 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:19:38 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Thanks for the comments re bad words. I finally got a look at _The F word_ (which I cited and recommended) (hi, Jesse!). On the basis of it, list comments, and some HEL stuff, I suggested that the 15-tear-old be told something like this: ----- "Bad words" exist in a limited number of categories. Some categories are religious terms, sexual terms, racial epithets. Which ones are "bad" vary over time. For instance, several hundred years ago religious profanity was probably most highly stigmatized. In more recent years sexual terms (including body parts) have been highly stigmatized. In the US today, racial epithets are so stigmatized that, for instance, someone in Washington was initially fired a few years ago for using the word "niggardly" (which has no etymological connection to the n-word). Words become "bad" not because the words themselves are bad - they are not - but because they refer explicitly to something we are not as a society comfortable referring to explicitly or because they come to embody a particular attitude. This the two most highly stigmatized words in English today are the f-word and the n-word - one for its explicit reference, one for an attitude, I think. There are now books on both of them. _The F Word_, by Jesse Sheidlower (Random House, 1995) is a fairly scholarly glossary with introductory material. If you have not seen it, you may want to get a copy. I have not yet read _Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word_ (Randall Kennedy, 2001 or so), but of course I have lived through a period of history when we have had to replace several approximate synonyms as each became taboo - Negro, colored person, black, African-American, etc. The study of "bad words" is really the study of changing perceptions, I think. ---- Bethany From Conrad-Horst at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Jul 11 04:18:26 2002 From: Conrad-Horst at T-ONLINE.DE (Horst Conrad) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:18:26 +0200 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: Yes it does. There are also words like 'Speiseeis' or 'Eiskrem' - but nobody would say 'Ich hole mir ein Speiseeis.' Mit freundlichem Gruß Yours sincerely Sincères salutations Üdvözlettel Horst Conrad . E-Mail: mailto:horst.conrad at t-online.de Internet: http://conrad-horst.bei.t-online.de Internet: http://www.etymologie.info Internet: http://www.wortherkunft.de Anmeldung zur Etymologie-Mailingliste: http://www.etymologie.info/et/et_maili.html#Etymologie-Mailingliste Anmeldung zum Etymologie-Newsletter: http://www.etymologie.info/et/et_maili.html#Etymologie-Newsletter Webring-Assistent "Etymologie": http://www.webring.de/cgi-bin/webring/navigation.pl?TeilnehmerID=76146 ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Jewish Museum food > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > > > As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World > > War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe > > that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 07:00:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:00:23 -0400 Subject: Love Parade; Cindy Adams column Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin. I leave for Vienna in about four hours. LOVE PARADE--I'll miss the "Love Parade" of July 13. This is the thirteenth year of the parade, and it's bigger than ever. I don't know if it deserves an OED entry, but Google it for yourself. FUCK PARADE--According to the EX-BERLINER: "Formerly known as the Hate Parade, it was launched in '97 as a counterdemo for those who thought the Love Parade was lame and overcommercial. (..) Check out www.fuckparade.de." CINDY ADAMS COLUMN, THURSDAY, 11 JULY--At www.nypost.com. See her tagline, and if you ever meet her, YOU tell her that "Only in New York" was used in 1949! I'm glad she came here and reported on the conference, so that must be acknowledged above all else. However, the column is incredibly bad. We did not meet in a "15th-century building." Constance Baker Motley was not present. Simon Wiesenthal was not present. Alice Gilbert I don't believe was present. I don't think these names were even on the conference program! It's not Hubert Okun, it's Herbert. Gabriel Bach is a FORMER Israel supreme court judge. And saying that "Anti-Semitism is alive and well here" is very misleading. The new Jewish Museum has been a huge hit with the German public. There's more sensitivity than ever before. There will always be anti-Semitism, but the situation is a good deal better in Germany than in almost any other Euro country (say, France or Austria). Again, not good at all, but at least it wasn't another article on Gwyneth Paltrow. From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jul 11 09:34:37 2002 From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:34:37 +0200 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2002 to 10 Jul 2002 (#2002-166) Message-ID: > > > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> > >> As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during > >> World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to > >> believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > > > allen > > maberry at u.washington.edu > > Yes, but "Eiscreme" is also seen. I don't remember hearing it used in > speech, but if I'm not mistaken, a brand whose little flags are all over > the place advertises its product as "Eiscreme." The current mania of the > German language for borrowing foreign words, even where perfectly good > German words already exist, has lasted for decades now and rages on > undiminished. True, most of the borrowings are from English, so Eiscreme > isn't such a clear-cut case, but the overall trend and the existence of > English "ice cream" probably favor it. > > Peter Mc. > "Ice cream" in English and "Eiscreme" in German are both hybrid compounds, the first part being Germanic and at home in both languages, with more or less the same pronunciation but different spellings reflecting different stages at which they were fixed: "ice" before the vowel shift, "Eis" in its first stage of diphthongisation. The second part was loaned from French, which in the German word clearly shows in the spelling, while the English spelling conceals the French origin. So the whole word is not directly one of the ubiquitous Anglicisms or Americanisms; I agree, though, that the influence of "ice cream" may have caused the more frequent use of "Eiscreme" as against just "Eis", which, however, prevails in compounds like "Eisbecher" (= a cup of ice cream") or "Eiswaffel" (ice cream between two wafers). P.L. _______________________________ Prof. Dr. Peter Lucko Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin Institut für Anglistik und Amerikanistik Unter den Linden 6 D-10099 Berlin, Germany Tel.: +49 30 2093 2295 Fax: +49 30 2093 2244 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 11 11:41:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:41:34 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in >"Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more >likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods >aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a >hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives >from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse >"pawning" with "bird of prey"? > >dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 11 11:52:06 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:52:06 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2002 to 10 Jul 2002 (#2002-166) In-Reply-To: <3D2D512C.29958DA7@rz.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Prof. Peter Lucko wrote: #"Ice cream" in English and "Eiscreme" in German are both hybrid #compounds, the first part being Germanic and at home in both #languages, with more or less the same pronunciation but different #spellings reflecting different stages at which they were fixed: "ice" #before the vowel shift, "Eis" in its first stage of diphthongisation. #The second part was loaned from French, which in the German word #clearly shows in the spelling, while the English spelling conceals the #French origin. Many American products that are "creams" in some parallel way, either as imitation dairy products or by having a creamy consistency, are marketed as "creme" (with no circumflex, unlike the French "cre^me"), pronounced the same as "cream". I've never thought of this usage as a return to the French spelling, though I suppose it could have originated as such. -- Mark A. Mandel From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Jul 11 12:32:39 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:32:39 +0200 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: The German "Eis" actually covers both "ice" and "ice-cream" - if you want to specify, you say "Speiseeis", ice for eating. The "Eiscreme" is a special type of "Speiseeis", soft and coming out of a machine instead of being scooped up with a spoon. And I am not sure that a German would consider the word being a loan from English: "Creme" was borrowed from French long ago. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 13:40:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:40:33 -0400 Subject: Sic Bo Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik Subject: Sic Bo Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:34:40 -0400 Size: 1338 URL: From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 14:47:13 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:47:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: It seems to me that you're making something of a leap here. The shop owner used "hawk" in his shop name, he said in his brief conversation with me, because it means to sell. As such, it was used correctly and with the correct spelling. (Traditionally, "hawk" means to sell as an itinerant peddler, but I think that the term as used in the U.S. simply means to sell aggressively, not necessarily as an itinerant or in the street.) You are suggesting that the shop owner was under a double confusion: First, he thought that the term "hock," also rare locally, means to sell rather than to pawn, and second, he thought that the word is spelled h-a-w-k. Instead of assuming that the owner used the wrong word and happened to misspell it in a way that coincidentally made his usage correct, isn't it simpler to assume that he was using the right word in the right way? -----Original Message----- From: Herbert Stahlke [mailto:hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:51 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock I lean towards my original assumption, when I pointed this new Muncie store out to Mai and to one of my undergrad Language and Society classes. "Hawk", in the sense of "sell in the street or door to door" isn't a very common verb in this area. Many of my Central Indiana students didn't know that meaning. They knew of the bird and the act of clearing one's throat noisily, but not this form of commerce. Knowing the owners and employees of this shop, I tend to doubt that they know it either. The place is something of a used equipment store. The owners do, as you thought, pronounce "hawk" and "hock" the same, though, as one would expect of natives of a low back vowel merger region. My guess is that the word "hock", which is also not particularly common around here--many of my students didn't know that one either--was confused with its homophone "hawk" and used loosely to mean "sell". Herb Stahlke From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 14:50:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Then, in answer to your earlier question, yes, some people do think that "hawk" means to pawn, per RHHDAS. However, I'm not aware of anybody who thinks that "hock" means to sell. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:42 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in >"Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more >likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods >aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a >hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives >from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse >"pawning" with "bird of prey"? > >dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 15:45:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:45:58 -0400 Subject: Kochbuch fur Israeliten (1815); Cocktail names Message-ID: KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buche der Staatsbibliotek), also available at http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? --------------------------------------------------------------- COCKTAIL NAMES Posh, the Australian Bar, is near this Grand Hyatt. I liked the drink list in the window, so here goes: Abbie Dabbie, Abseits, Albatros, Banana Mama, Barbie, Batida Brazil, Bird of Paradise, Bloody Mary, Caipirinha, Caipirovka, Castro Cooler, Cats, Choco Colada, Cuba Libre, Daiquir Natural, Dallas, Ducktail, El Diabolo, Erich Honecker (Hennessy Pure White, APricot Brandy, Orangensaft, Yitronsaft, Madelsirup), Flamingo, Flying Kangaroo, Freedom, French Colada, Frozen Fruit Daiquir, Froyen Fruit Margarita, Fruit Caipirinha, Golden Colada, Green Devil, Green Poison, Haiti Night, Hill Street, Honolulu Juicer, Hurricane, Island of Passion, Jack's Wife, Jamaica Fever, Laser, Latin Lover, Liebe Sunde, Long Island Iced Tea, Lynchburg Lemonade, Madame Louise, Magic Queen, Margarita Natural, Melon Man, Mexican Colada, Mojito, New Orleans, Northern Lights, Nuclear, Pimm's No. 1 Cup, Pina COlada, Pink Elephant, Planter's Punch, Posh Tropical, Posh Twister, Raspberry Flip, Red Banana, Scorpion, Sex on the Beach, Singapore SLing, Strawberry Kiss, Sugar Plump, Surf, Swimming Pool, Tequila Sunrise, Tiefseetacher, Tornado, Vodka Blue, West Indian Punch, Zombie, Zorro ALKOHOLFREIE COCKTAILS Baby Love, C-Monster, Calcutta, Coco Choco, Cocoloc, Coconut Kiss, Green Mile, Honolulu Star, Ipanema, Long Distance Runner, Mandarinetto, Pelikan, Pussy Foot, Spring Fever, Summer Cooler, Tropical, Virgin Mojito, Virgin Pina Colada From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Thu Jul 11 16:02:57 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:02:57 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gee, when I saw the pix I just thought it was a cute, and catchy, play on words of the Dew Drop Inn, variant. I doubt if many folks think of the negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in at that site, even thought he founders did. The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really depressing. rhk From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 16:13:10 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:13:10 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Well, if we weren't able to get into intense serious discussion of minor issues of language, what kind of linguistics list would this be? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Rick H Kennerly [mailto:Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Gee, when I saw the pix I just thought it was a cute, and catchy, play on words of the Dew Drop Inn, variant. I doubt if many folks think of the negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in at that site, even thought he founders did. The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really depressing. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 16:46:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:46:45 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/11/02 12:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes: > I doubt if many folks think of the > negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in > at that site, even thought he founders did. > > The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really > depressing. > I guess we're not very Swift. Or maybe we heeded the name of that famous Australian actor, Yahoo Serious. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 17:17:33 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:17:33 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:41 AM Subject: Re: hawk/hock > Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) > "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch > carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds > (called "falconry" by the elite). > > None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the > morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a > relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the Pacific Northwest in this respect? Anne G From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jul 11 17:28:04 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:28:04 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are homophones. "Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with "hawk". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 11 17:31:54 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:31:54 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: Hey, that makes three morally adequate Northwesterners (Allen Maberry, me, and now Anne)! Maybe our region can still be saved! Peter Mc. DInIs wrote: >> Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) >> "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch >> carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds >> (called "falconry" by the elite). >> >> None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the >> morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a >> relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." And Anne G. replied: > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at > least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from > the Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:03:22 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:03:22 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <262038.3235372314@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Nope. That makes three northwesterners who CLAIM they distinguish hock-hawk (and the attendant moral superiority that apparently comes with vowel distinguishing). dInIs (suspicious) >Hey, that makes three morally adequate Northwesterners (Allen Maberry, me, >and now Anne)! Maybe our region can still be saved! > >Peter Mc. > > >DInIs wrote: > >>>Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) >>>"hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch >>>carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds >>>(called "falconry" by the elite). >>> >>>None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the >>>morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a >>>relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." > >And Anne G. replied: >> >>INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at >>least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from >>the Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>Anne G > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:18:02 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Both of these words are pretty rare (not the bird sense, of course) and the semantic similarity is pretty strong. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Thu 7/11/2002 6:41 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: hawk/hock Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 18:21:39 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:21:39 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I didn't know the two COULD be distinguished, and I was born in Auburn and grew up in Kent and Seattle. I get my pronunciation from my mother who probably got it from her mother who was born in West Seattle. I was born just a little ways away in Auburn and my mother in Seattle. (My grandfather was born in California.) Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Anne Gilbert > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > different from the > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 18:30:50 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:30:50 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I guess I'm Gordon's exact opposite. Hawk=sell is familiar to me, "hock" in no way strikes me as rare, it never occurred to me that "hawk" and "hock" could be homophones, but my initial moral superiority is utterly lost if I try to distinguish "pen" and "pin." In fact, I'm in pretty bad shape with the whole concept of basing morality on vowel distinguishing, other than hawk/hock. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Gordon, Matthew J. [mailto:GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 2:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Both of these words are pretty rare (not the bird sense, of course) and the semantic similarity is pretty strong. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 18:38:42 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:38:42 -0700 Subject: FW: hawk/hock Message-ID: He was born in Seattle, his mother in Japan. > From: Henry Mah > I think that I pronounce them the same. > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Barrett [mailto:gogaku at ix.netcom.com] > What do you think about this? > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > > different from the > > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > > Anne G A five-vowel pronunciation system for a unified spelling system! FCV-subscribe at fivecardinalvowels.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 11 18:40:02 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:40:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340BF@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: #I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low #back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the #pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the #meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would #have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Vice versa here. "Hawking one's wares" is a well-established expression for me, with a basic connotation of selling them on the street and calling them out to passersby, and a general sense of selling and promoting them. To me, the verb "hock" means "pawn", and if I heard about someone /'hakIN/ their goods I would assume either that the speaker was a conflater and meant 'selling', or that that s/he meant 'pawning'. If I read "hocking one's wares" I would assume either 'pawning' or misspelling. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:44:21 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:44:21 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Allen: > > Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are > homophones. > "Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with > "hawk". > Same here. That was my point, I guess. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:47:35 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:47:35 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: dInIs > Nope. That makes three northwesterners who CLAIM they distinguish > hock-hawk (and the attendant moral superiority that apparently comes > with vowel distinguishing). > Well, that kind of reminds me of the discussion we had over the pronunciation of "clematis" some months back. I haven't heard anybody(that I know of)who promounces "hawk" and "hock" the same way in my part of the country, but then, there are people who aren't "native Northwesterners" -- e.g., they come here from every part of the country -- and we Northwesterners with webbed, moss-growing feet like to *think* we're "morally superior" to *them*. :-) Anne G From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:48:47 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:48:47 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: As someone who used to hawk vegetables in Wilmington, DE, I was aware of the word in everyday usage. A search with Google returns about a dozen hits on 'hawk vegetables'. We were not hucksters, since the vegetables were grown on our farm. At the time, city laws did not require us to have a license. MW 10th, #1, defines a huckster as a hawker/peddler. George Cole Shippensburg University From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:48:52 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:48:52 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Benjamin: > I didn't know the two COULD be distinguished, and I was born in > Auburn and grew up in Kent and Seattle. > > I get my pronunciation from my mother who probably got it from her > mother who was born in West Seattle. I was born just a little ways > away in Auburn and my mother in Seattle. (My grandfather was born in > California.) (Deep breath) Hmmmmmmm. . . . . . . Anne G From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 11 20:29:37 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:29:37 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Larry Horn asked: >> I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? << One can find _apizza_ as a spelling in the names of some pizza parlors not far from New Haven, esp. in towns that were populated by ex-New Haven Italians -- East Haven is the best example (btw, the local allegro pron for East Haven is something like "STAY-v at n"). There's an ethnic joke about East Haven that claims that the last names of everyone who lives there ends in a vowel. The furthest afield use of apizza I have seen is in the name "Sal's Apizza", a parlor in Meriden, about 25 miles north of New Haven. That may not seem far, but Meriden has little to do culturally or historically with New Haven. On the other hand the reputation of the Wooster Street-style "apizzas" within Connecticut may well explain the use of the term that far away. So far, I have not been able to track down anything on the origin of _apizza_. Anyone else? Could it be regional or dialectal Italian? Perhaps from an area in Italy from which many New Haven immigrants came? As for the pron, it has stress on the second syllable, something like "ah-BEETS". The "p" is sounded like a bilabial fricative. As for _pie_ = 'pizza', I recall encountering this for the first time in college (Xavier U in Cincinnati), from the mouths of Northeasterners. It struck me then as very odd. Being a Midwesterner by upbringing, I never refer to a pizza as a "pie". Even the term _pizza pie_ seems a bit odd to me. For me, it's simply _pizza_. Frank Abate From aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU Thu Jul 11 21:18:22 2002 From: aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU (National Foreign Language Resource Center) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:18:22 -1000 Subject: Call for Papers: American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) 2003 Conference Message-ID: Call for Papers: AAAL 2003 The annual conference of the American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) will be held March 22-25, 2003 at the Sheraton National Hotel in Arlington, VA, across the Potomac River from Washington, DC. Proposals for presentations related to policy, research, and theory are invited in any area of applied linguistics. Proposals may be for individual papers, poster sessions, or colloquia. The abstract submission and refereeing process will be paperless this year. Instructions regarding abstract preparation and online submission and other aspects of the conference may be found on the organization's website: www.aaal.org/aaal2003/ Proposals may be submitted online from now until the deadline of August 26, 2002. Please join us in Arlington for AAAL 2003! From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 23:45:10 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:45:10 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Anne G wrote: >I haven't heard anybody(that I> know of)who promounces "hawk" and "hock" the same way in my part of the >country, but then, there are people who aren't "native Northwesterners" -- >e.g., they come here from every part of the country -- Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing them--that would have struck a chord right off. Of course, their must be some old logger in the hills or farmer in the southern part of the Willamette Valley who makes a difference. I periodically poll my students on such matters and this one is almost 100% in agreement with my usage--the few who do not are invariably webfoot wannabes, but not natives. >and we >Northwesterners with webbed, moss-growing feet like to *think* we're >"morally superior" to *them*. :-) >Anne G What do mean *think*?! :-) There's just something cool about someone who doesn't mind a little liquid sunshine. Fritz Juengling From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 12 00:16:49 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:16:49 -0700 Subject: You half to help me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for > "(you) have > to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance > was in an > official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The > second one > was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. > > What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling > error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How > could that have come about? Microsoft's Spell-Checker. If the spell checker doesn't flag it, it must be ok. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 12 00:46:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:46:53 -0400 Subject: You half to help me! In-Reply-To: <000901c22939$6b4b8020$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: > > Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for >> "(you) have >> to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance >> was in an >> official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The >> second one >> was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. >> >> What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling >> error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How > > could that have come about? > They're not alone. A quick google search under "you half to" (with quotes present) turns up "about 1630 hits, only some of which can be dismissed as involving well-formed contexts like "scares you half to death". Most are more like "you half to see it to believe it". Well, at least the reader knows how to pronounced "half to" when it's spelled that way. But "unconscious acceptance" does seem to be on the way... larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 11 21:30:23 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:30:23 -0500 Subject: FW: hawk/hock Message-ID: Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable. A summary map can be found at: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map1L.html > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > > different from the > > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > > Anne G From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 21:06:35 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:06:35 -0700 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although I always leave out the pie part, I learned the order of the planets by the mneumonic My Very Educated Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizza Pies Benjamin Barrett From nfogli at IOL.IT Thu Jul 11 23:50:16 2002 From: nfogli at IOL.IT (=?iso-8859-1?Q?--?=) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:50:16 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_You_half_to_help_me!?= Message-ID: Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for "(you) have to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance was in an official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The second one was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How could that have come about? Thank you for any helpful insights, Steve Roti From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 12 00:08:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:08:19 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: While, historically, profanity was more criticized than sexual terms, the practice seems to have been the reverse. In printed works, at least, profanity was far more common than sexual terms, suggesting that the f-work and the c-word were subject to the most powerful taboos. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bethany K. Dumas [mailto:dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bad words Which ones are "bad" vary over time. For instance, several hundred years ago religious profanity was probably most highly stigmatized. In more recent years sexual terms (including body parts) have been highly stigmatized. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 11 23:59:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:59:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >> >> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) >> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >> Anne G > >Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >homophones. >"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >"hawk". > Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the Mary/merry/marry ones. Larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 01:56:34 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:56:34 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <160.10748d6b.2a5f7286@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing #them--that would have struck a chord right off. Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 01:57:31 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:57:31 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve #all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the #Mary/merry/marry ones. Not to mention there/their and soar/sore... -- Mark M. From Friolly at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 02:36:37 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:36:37 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/11/02 6:56:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would > be > #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all > their > #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing > #them--that would have struck a chord right off. > > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you > hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. Well, just because folks "merge" vowels does not mean they cannot hear the difference when someone else makes it. Everyone in my family, for example, has the caught/cot merger, but we all hear the difference. Even my youngest, who is now nine, has been snickering for years when she has heard someone on TV say 'cawt'. We have been watching 'Hogan's Heroes' for since she was 5 and she notices every time Bob Crane says 'bawl' for 'ball,' and so on. When I was a kid, though, I could not tell the difference between 'tin' and 'ten.' I did watch Sesame Street and I am sure they said eight, nine, 'tin.' I never heard it when I watched Mary Tyler Moore--who was supposed to be a Minnesotan, but is from New York. Now, when I watch those same shows, she sounds like she's from New York--no way is she a Minnesotan. My ability to discern items has increased, of course. On the other hand, when my oldest was in first grade, one of his spelling words was 'bag.' So, he studied all week and when the test was given, there was a new word on the list--'beg.' The teacher was a 'bag/beg' merger (very common in Minnesota). So, my son naturally wrote what he heard, even though it was new "b-e-g" and it was marked wrong. I brought this up at parent teacher conferences, the teacher could not hear the difference that I clearly made to save her life. A third anecdote. I had a buddy from Utah whose last name is Peel. However, certain vowels in Utah speech get (nearly) merged before /l/. So, when he would introduce himself, the conversation would run thusly: My buddy: Hi, my name is Mike Pill other person: Oh, Mike Pill? My buddy: No, Mike Pill other person: Mike Pill? My buddy: No, Pill! This round-robin would go on until he finally spelled his name. I am sure he thought everyone else was saying 'peeel.' After I had known him for quite some time, I finally asked him what he took for a headache--a 'pill.' Then what his last name was --'pill.' I had him say both over and over and finally I could hear a *slight* difference, but it was as clear as day to him. The vowels are really not merged, but they sound like it to outsiders, but he, and his wife (and I believe the other Utahns) could tell the difference. So, sometimes people can hear differences and sometimes they cannot. I do not know why some things are so obvious to some and not to others. There are probably many reasons. Fritz From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 12 04:02:14 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:02:14 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The furthest afield use of apizza I have seen is in the name "Sal's Apizza", >a parlor in Meriden, about 25 miles north of New Haven. That may not seem >far, but Meriden has little to do culturally or historically with New Haven. >On the other hand the reputation of the Wooster Street-style "apizzas" >within Connecticut may well explain the use of the term that far away. There is "Tomatoes Apizza" in suburban Detroit, but it apparently is recent, and its name apparently is based on its owner's recollections of New Haven. [There is of course the Abate Apizza and Seafood Restaurant in New Haven.] There is the spelling "appizza" occasionally. >So far, I have not been able to track down anything on the origin of >_apizza_. Anyone else? Could it be regional or dialectal Italian? Perhaps >from an area in Italy from which many New Haven immigrants came? "Pizza" itself is apparently from a southern Italian dialect originally. First, what is the origin of "pizza" in Italian (or Italian dialect)? [What is its connection to Modern Greek "pitta" [bread] (which my Buck book says is apparently derived from Italian/Latin)?] "Pizza" in Italian should mean "point", I would think ... quite the opposite of pizza-like flatness .... It is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). Incidentally, a little Calabrian-Italian dictionary on the Web shows Calabrian "pizza" = "cake" or so (equated to Italian "torta") but it also shows Calabrian "pizza" with a grave accent on the "i" meaning "penis" -- more in line with "point", or Italian "picca" ("pike" etc.) (cf. "piccante", "pizzicato", etc.). -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Fri Jul 12 05:03:09 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:03:09 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002-167) In-Reply-To: <20020712040009.9966F5156@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Date sent: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:00:08 -0400 Send reply to: American Dialect Society From: Automatic digest processor Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002- 167) To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:36:37 EDT > From: Fritz Juengling > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > In a message dated 7/11/02 6:56:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM > writes: > > > > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington > > #(I would > > be > > #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with > > #all > > their > > #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone > > #distinguishing them--that would have struck a chord right off. > > > > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as > > you hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. > > /E/. > > Well, just because folks "merge" vowels does not mean they cannot hear > the difference when someone else makes it But it becomes much more likely. I'm from an area where "Don" and "Dawn" are pronounced differently. (The Catskills. If The Twilight Zone is still being rerun, it's easy to hear a native speaker of my dialect. Rod Serling was from the next county, and to me he has no accent.) I now live in the Twin Cities, where natives don't make that distinction. I'm not a trained linguist, but informal investigation indicates that Minnesotans find it hard to hear the distinction. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 08:43:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 04:43:07 -0400 Subject: Hot-Dog with Frankfurter Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. This is the menu of a little hot-dog booth. It sells a hot-dog WITH frankfurter. (What's next? A hamburger with meat?) 1 stk Klobasse gekocht (Burenwurst) 2.00 euro l stk Grillwurst 2.20 1 stk Currywurst 2.35 1 stk Bratwurst 2.20 1 stk Tiroler Grillwurst 2.35 1 stk Teufelsgriller 2.30 1 stk Grill-Kasekrainer 2.30 1 stk Knoblauchwurst 2.30 1 Paar Frankfurter 2.05 1 Paar Puszta 2.05 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Grillwurst 2.65 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Bratwurst 2.65 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Tiroler Grillwurst 2.80 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Kasekrainer 3.15 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Teufelsgriller 2.70 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Frankfurter 1.85 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Debreziner 1.85 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 12 12:36:13 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:36:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ahahahahahahah, larry, how bout horse-hoarse? dInIs >At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>bird, at least) >>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>> Anne G >> >>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>homophones. >>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>"hawk". >> >Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >Mary/merry/marry ones. > >Larry From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 12 12:38:26 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:38:26 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope this is not redundant -- I'm checking my mail remotely and may not have gotten to all the ADS-L hawk messages hidden among the porn and weight loss spams... But, to answer Dennis, I was reading the June issue of WIRED yesterday evening and found this sentence in an article about Filipino workers overseas: "Often a new contract, written in a foreign language, is forced on the employee once she's in hawk for her fees and far away from home." (p. 145) --Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse > "pawning" with "bird of prey"? > > dInIs > > > > > >Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk > >Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, > >just of the pronunciation. > > > >John Baker > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] > >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM > >To: American Dialect Society > >Cc: Baker, John > >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > > > > >Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] > >(with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I > >have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the > >clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the > >two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. > > > >On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the > >opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). > >(I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) > >Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell > >it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked > >my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking > >about for some time. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 12 13:38:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Hot-Dog with Frankfurter In-Reply-To: <2A62626D.100BB38A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Greetings from Vienna. This is the menu of a little hot-dog > booth. It sells a hot-dog WITH frankfurter. (What's next? A hamburger > with meat?) .... Here's the place, I think: http://members.newsclub.at/deninger/ Here's the menu: http://members.newsclub.at/deninger/speissekarte/keinespeissenhm.htm "Riesen Hot-Dog" = "Giant/Grand Hot Dog", I think. Here I speculate that "Hot-Dog" can be interpreted as "sausage [sandwich]" [perhaps mustard or something is implied also]. "Riesen" presumably refers to a larger than usual sausage, I guess ... or maybe to a fat or fancy sandwich stuffed with sauerkraut or whatever. If I were in Austria I'd be glad to research the subject. Even in the US, expressions such as "bratwurst hot dog" and "kielbasa hot dog" are used, to my personal knowledge and per Google. Per Google, I find one example of an apparent literate US-an using "frankfurter hot dog", which I've never heard myself IIRC. If "hot dog" = "sausage sandwich" occurs in the US, I suppose it can be expected to occur elsewhere too. ("Debreziner" = "puszta", I think.) -- Doug Wilson From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 12 15:37:55 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:37:55 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:56 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I > would be #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' > with all their #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone > distinguishing #them--that would have struck a chord right off. And Mark Mandel replied: > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you > hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its linguistic mix. In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly observe our own speech. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 15:43:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:43:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <148465.3235451875@[10.218.203.234]> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: # #On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, You mean hawk/HOCK, right? #etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was #just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded #by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on #those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, #though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of #Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came #from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared #many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its #linguistic mix. # #In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: # #"Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent #distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected #of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are #variable." # #I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" #and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple #statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of #the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly #observe our own speech. ISTR a finding, prob. by Labov, that people can maintain distinctions in their own production that they fail to recognize in other people's speech or their own. -- Mark A. Mandel From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 12 15:58:43 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:58:43 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 12, 2002 11:43 AM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > #On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > > You mean hawk/HOCK, right? Oops! Yes. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:18:21 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:18:21 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:36 AM -0400 7/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >ahahahahahahah, larry, how bout horse-hoarse? > >dInIs Got me there. I guess that's down below the Mary/merry/marry line. L > >>At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>>> >>>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>>bird, at least) >>>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>>> Anne G >>> >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> >>Larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:17:52 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:17:52 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: What I meant by 'consistent' is that the distinction is maintained in all phonetic environments checked (Don/dawn, sock/talk, cot/caught, collar/taller) and is maintained in both production and perception. As expected many speakers claim to distinguish the vowels though their production belies this. More interesting are the cases of people who claim to merge them and fail perception tests to distinguish them despite the fact that they maintain a measurable difference in their actual production. As for the contradiction of Labov's data with the claims of listers, I suspect this may be a sampling issue. TELSUR sampled only a few speakers in each locale. Also, the goal was to examine ongoing changes and so the sample was biased to a certain extent in favor of young women. Still, the fact that they didn't find anyone out there who consistently distinguished the vowels is striking. -----Original Message----- From: Peter A. McGraw [mailto:pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/12/2002 10:37 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: hawk/hock In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly observe our own speech. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:19:06 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:19:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and horse/hoarse? Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 12 16:43:16 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:43:16 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter McGraw writes: In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." ~~~~~~ I was rather inclined to accept this as explaining why my fellow Nebraskan (landsman?), Matthew Gordon, & I differ in this matter. I do and have always distinguished between hawk & hock. I'm guessing that I'm a good deal older than Matthew. A. Murie From Friolly at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 17:03:39 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:03:39 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/12/02 8:45:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, Of course you do. Most people who do not merge items find it odd that others do. I am sure that if we could resurrect an Anglo-Saxon, he would find it outlandish that we now merge 'kn' and 'n' as in 'knee.' I had a phonetics professor once who was bothered by my merger of pin/pen. He just could not figure out how I would ever know which was which and when to spell 'pen.' Well, first off, I always know what I mean to say, but I answered him by asking how he would know which [nait] he meant--knight or night-- ([rait] would have been better--right, write, rite, wright). Context tells what you mean and, as far as spelling goes, it's more or less a matter of memorization. Writing for /i/ does not bother me any more than writing for /nothing/ Our Ango-Saxon buddy would be astounded to hear all four [rait]s as homophones--he would have had 4 different pronunciations. I find it equally as outlandish that people do not merge them 'hawk' and 'hock.' It just seems a bothersome distinction. When I wrote that this might be a Wash/Oregon isogloss, I was not serious. Fritz and yet I was > > just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded > by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on > those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, > though I From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 12 17:34:37 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:34:37 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hardly, dInIs >Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and >horse/hoarse? > >Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jul 12 17:45:08 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:45:08 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Hardly, > >>Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and >>horse/hoarse? >> >>Bethany Whew! Thanks. My students sometimes think I am. Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Jul 12 18:50:41 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:50:41 -0400 Subject: yahoo email: medieval equals medireview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of you may be interested in the following, especially if the word "medireview" ever comes up when you're searching. http://www.ntk.net/2002/07/12/#HARD_NEWS -- Steve From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 12 18:54:57 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:57 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C2@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: >What I meant by 'consistent' is that the distinction is maintained >in all phonetic environments checked (Don/dawn, sock/talk, >cot/caught, collar/taller) and is maintained in both production and >perception. I was surprised to discover I do NOT distinguish between pom/palm, though I do not merge any of the others. What's going on here? My husband did make the distinction between them, as well as the others. Rima From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 12 21:34:24 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:34:24 -0400 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair cited. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 01:00:43 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:00:43 -0400 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <007f01c229eb$e52bc6e0$1eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair >differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair >cited. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein Yes, indeed I remember this being marked as some sort of phonemic length distinction back in Gleason's Intro to Descriptive Linguistics. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 01:37:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:37:31 -0400 Subject: Austrian Gelateria & other Austrian food Message-ID: Greetings again from Vienna...A souvenir traffic sign declares "No kangaroos in Austria." There are TWO Jewish museums in town. One is simply the excavation of a 15th-century synagogue. The other concentrates on Leo Baeck interviews with modern Austrian Jews. There was not much of anything in the kosher food department to report. I asked to see any dreidels, and the guide didn't understand me. L'viv is the place I had to get to; my family comes from a town near there. L'viv is centrally located between Warsaw, Vienna, and Kiev, BUT is VERY difficult to get to. Maybe on another trip (Belarus). Thanks to Doug for that menu--it appears to be the one I looked at. From another Hot Dog place: D HOT G WURSTWAREN KLOBASSE 2.40 WALDVIERTLER 2.80 DEBREZINER 2.50 FRANKFURTER 2.50 PUSTAWURST 2.30 BRATWURST 3.00 KASEKRONER 3.00 HOT-DOG HOT-DOG KLOBASSE 2.70 HOT-DOG WALDVIERTLER 3.00 HOT-DOG DEBREZINER 2.00 HOT-DOG FRANKFURTER 2.00 HOT-DOG PUSTAWURST 2.60 HOT-DOG BRATWURST 3.30 HOT-DOG KASEKRAMER 3.30 ANKER--This is a popular chain of bread shops. See www.anker-brot.at for the full line of breads. TORTEN--The following were offered at the Gerstner cafe in the Kunstmuseum: TORTEN/CAKE/TORTE/TARTE Dobos 2.90 Clara Wieck 2.90 Facher 2.90 Topfen 2.90 Gerstner 2.90 Linzer 2.90 Nuss 2.90 Obst 2.90 Sacher 2.90 Trufiel 2.90 Karl V 3.10 Haustate 3.00 Mohntorte 3.00 Himbeerschnitten 2.60 NIGHTFLYS CHAMPAGNER--The Nightfly night club has its menu of champagne drinks listed: CHAMPAGNER DRINKS Champagner cocktail Ritz Harry's Pick Me Up French 75 Alfonso Cocktail Kir Royal Kir Imperial IBU--CHampagner, Apricot Brandy, Brangensaft 9.50 Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon"--Champagner, Absente Happy New Year--CHampagner, Cognac, Port Ruby Buffalo Bill--Champagner, Bourbon, Whiskey, Pfirsichlikor Simply Comfort GELATERIA The Gelateria has a nice take-away menu that I have here. These are the flavors: Ananas, Apfel, Bacio, Bacio Bianco, Banane, Caffe Bianco, Cassata, Cubana, Dulce de Leche, Erdbeer, Erdbeer Joghurt, Fiocco, Grapefruit, Haselnuss, Heidelbeer, Himbeer, Joghurt Natur, Kaffee, Kiwi, Koks, Mandel, Malaga, Mango, Manna, Maracuja, Maroni, Marille, Mascarpone, Melone, Oberskirsch, Orange, Panna Cotta, Pfirsich, Pistazien, Schokolade, Richard, Stracciatella, Tiramisu, Topfen, Torroncino, Vanille, Walnuss, Zitrone, Zuppa Inglese These specialities are made: Eiskaffee, Eiskaffee Fest, Orange-Coup, Coppa Amarena, Martini Coup, Eierlikor Coup, Spaghetti Coup, Pfirsich Coup, Schoko Coup, Himbeer Coup, Jeisse Liebe, Fruchtbecher, Marsala Coup, Schwarzwalder Kirsch, Weinbrand Coup, Bananen Split, Frucht Joghurt Pokal, Erdbeer Coup, Coppa Garda, Coppa Maronita, Kiwi Coup, Eisschokolade, Iceberg Pokal, Hawaii Coup, Spiegelei, Diat Coup, Wald Coup, Topfen Coup, Heidelbeer Coup, Tropical Coup, Caramel Coup, Coppa Mascarpone, Coppa Bacio, Passions Coup, Baiser Coup, Coppa Cereali, Mozart coup, Sekt Coup, Mangia e bevi, Coppa Amaretto, After Eight, Coppa Golosa, Coppa Baba, Kinder-Portion, Eiskrapfen, Diabetikereis From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:11:10 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:11:10 -0700 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002-167) Message-ID: > I'm from an area where "Don" and "Dawn" are pronounced differently. > (The Catskills. If The Twilight Zone is still being rerun, it's easy > to hear a native speaker of my dialect. Rod Serling was from the > next county, and to me he has no accent.) > > I now live in the Twin Cities, where natives don't make that > distinction. I'm not a trained linguist, but informal investigation > indicates that Minnesotans find it hard to hear the distinction. Maybe it's just me, but I hear people making such a distinction(although not all of them do)around here in the Pacific NW. I wonder if this is just a "Midewestern thing?" Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:14:42 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:14:42 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Fritz: > Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be > very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their > meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing > them--that would have struck a chord right off. Of course, their must be > some old logger in the hills or > farmer in the southern part of the Willamette Valley who makes a difference. > I periodically poll my students on such matters and this one is almost 100% > in agreement with my usage--the few who do not are invariably webfoot > wannabes, but not natives. Again, hmmmmmm. . . . . maybe it's just a generational difference, although I really don't know. Or maybe it's a usage thing. I haven't heard too many people speak about putting things into "hock" but there are plenty of "hawks"(birds, football teams, and the like), and that kind of "hawk" is pronounced differently from "hock". IOW, it doesn't rhyme with lock. > What do mean *think*?! :-) There's just something cool about someone who > doesn't mind a little liquid sunshine. Well, we sure aren't rain wimps. But people in most other parts of the country are. At least during the winter months. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:21:33 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:21:33 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Peter: > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was > just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded > by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on > those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, > though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of > Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came > from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared > many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its > linguistic mix. Well, it's true most people in Seattle and surrounding areas have come here from other parts of the country and bring their pronunciations and peculiarities with them(which makes for some awfully interesting results). My mother lived a good part of her life on the East Coast and made those kinds of distinctions all the time(in fact she insisted on doing so), and some of this has probably rubbed off on me, since I only conflate about half of the pronunciations that Fritz says his students conflate in the Portland area, and hawk-hock isn't one of them. However, some people who hear me talk end up asking me if I was born in Boston or somehwere similar. To them, I just don't sound quite "Northwestern", although I've lived here all my life, except for two years in Central Texas, where I began picking up all *their* "dialectical" pronunciations. > > In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: > > "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent > distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected > of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are > variable." > > I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" > and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple > statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of > the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly > observe our own speech. I, too, suspect something "generational" going on here, but what do I know? I'm not a linguist. Just a Starving Writer who loves words. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:25:41 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:25:41 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: David: > I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair > differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair > cited. > That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). Anne G From dcoles at SHAW.CA Sat Jul 13 04:32:06 2002 From: dcoles at SHAW.CA (Devon Coles) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:32:06 -0700 Subject: The Photos? Message-ID: Apolgies for bumbling around here, but I accidentally deleted the recent message with the photos . . . Can someone let me know the poster's name, the date of the posting or something by which I can search the list archives? Or better yet, maybe someone could just email me a copy (dcoles at shaw.ca)? thanks . . . Devon Coles From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Jul 13 06:34:50 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:34:50 -0400 Subject: Interesting glossary website Message-ID: Came across the following website by chance, and thought it might be interesting to ADSers. http://www.angelfire.com/geek/APRACE/glossary.html Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <007f01c229eb$e52bc6e0$1eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair >differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair >cited. Yup. That's it. RIma From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: yahoo email: medieval equals medireview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Some of you may be interested in the following, especially if the word >"medireview" ever comes up when you're searching. > >http://www.ntk.net/2002/07/12/#HARD_NEWS So we're back to African-American is the Color of My True Love's Hair... Rima From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <005001c22a14$966c7d00$36adf5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: >That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same >principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). >Anne G The amond/almond is completely different - for me anyway. The first is an ash, the crucial syllable in the second rhymes with palm. More like the difference in the pronunciations of Nevada. Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 10:31:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:31:27 -0400 Subject: Austrian McDonald's, Pizza Hut & more Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. "Vienna waits for you" is the Mastercard placemat greeting at the airport. FREIHET FUR PALASTINA--Graffiti seen near Sigmund Freud Park. CRAZZY DOGGG--An ad for a "hot dog" snack, also at Sigmund Freud Park. See the web site at www.crazzysnacks.com. The ad states, in perfect German: "The New Snack. Great Taste Included." NASCHMAKT BUFFETRESTAURANT--Thank goodness I did "nosh." Today's special is "Chicken Wings," if you can translate that. JACOBS ICE PRESSO, NESCAFE WHITE ICE--Two drinks seen at the SPAR supermarket. ICE=EIS? Doesn't anyone here speak Deutsch? SAMMY'S SUPER SANDWICH--American sandwich bread, sold at SPAR. It's by "Harry backer selt 1588." Sammy wears the stars and stripes. AMERICAN STYLE SANDWICH--The SPAR brand sandwich bread. Stars and stripes are on the package. KELLOGG'S CRUNCHY NUT CORN FLAKES (HONIG & NUSSE)--Well, there's a little German here. CAFE CENTRAL KONDITOREI: TORTEN UND SCHNITTEN: SACHERTORTE 2.50 CAFE CENTRALTORTE 2.50 TRUFFELTORTE 2.50 ORANGENCHARLOTTE 2.50 ESTERHAZYSCHNITTE 2.30 GEB. TOPFENSCHNITTE 2.30 PLUNDERGEDACH 1.20 APFELSTRUDEL 2.70 "MUNCHER WEISSWURST" 5, "SCHWEINSSCHNITZEL" 8.35, "SCHWEINSBRATEN" 6.50, "MOZZARELLASALAT" 5.80--today's specials at a place here. What's with the quotations? PIZZA HUT Maybe this is on the web site. These pizzas are offered: MARHERITA SALAMI COUNTRY--Mozzarella, Schinken und Mais VEGETARIAN ohne Fleisch! TROPICANA KIETA ohne Fleisch! RODEO SPECIAL WELLNESS ohne Fleisch! (WHat places use "Health" and what places use "Wellness"?--ed.) TEXAS SHANGHAI EXPRESS BOMBAY DELIGHT THUNFISCH LOVER'S FLORIDA CHICKEN McDONALD'S Again, maybe this is on a web site somewhere. The placemat features: HONOLULU CHICKEN MAUI CHEESE POTATOES (I don't recall cheese potatoes from my trip to Hawaii--ed.) GRILLED TEXAS BURGER BROCCOLI CHEESE NUGGETS BIGXTRA! BRAZIL RIO ROLLCHEN McAFRICA KONGA CHICKEN STICKS (I suppose McDonald's feels it's fashionable to use English in food names?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 10:36:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:36:32 -0400 Subject: Penetration Packages (military speak) Message-ID: On today's DrudgeReport.com, it says that China may have "penetration packages" to defeat U.S. missile defense systems. Does the military have to borrow the terms used in good old sex? From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 13 12:16:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:16:23 -0400 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <005001c22a14$966c7d00$36adf5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: #David: # #> I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair #> differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair #> cited. #> #That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same #principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). What is "amond" with no written "l"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sat Jul 13 13:06:43 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:06:43 -0500 Subject: The Photos? In-Reply-To: <003501c22a26$3ee53dd0$e1d44318@inque> Message-ID: > Apolgies for bumbling around here, but I accidentally deleted the recent > message with the photos . . . Can someone let me know the poster's name, the > date of the posting or something by which I can search the list archives? Or > better yet, maybe someone could just email me a copy (dcoles at shaw.ca)? > > thanks . . . > Devon Coles Did you mean my original message? I'll append it below. mk ________ Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 13:50:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:50:35 -0400 Subject: Sacher-Torte, Weiner Schnitzel, Kaiserschmarren & more Message-ID: LIBRARIES The National Bibliothek is open Monday-Friday 9am-4 pm, so it's closed today and tomorrow. I didn't feel like going my first day here (I walked around the city and went to museums). So I'll have just a few hours on Monday; if it takes a day to deliver books, I'm sunk...I'll ask if, like the NYPL, it has a menu collection...The NB is in a huge imperial palace and it took me a while to find it...I paid 5 euros (euro?) for the "NB" today and got an exhibit. I tried to visit a University library to read old Vienna newspapers, but no one knows where such a library is. WEINER SCHNITZEL--Figlmuller advertises "The most famous Schnitzel in Vienna." It's "seit 1905," so it's not an antedate for "Schnitzel." See www.figlmueller.at. SACHER-TORTE--See www.sacher.com. I got a pamphlet from the Hotel Sacher. If you don't know where that is, it's in Vienna, just opposite Starbucks. From the pamphlet: "The history of the world-famous Original Sacher-Torte began in 1832, when the 16-year old apprentice cook Franz Sacher created this dessert at the court of Prince Metternich. In the meantime, it has become the most famous torte in the world and the hand-written recipe is a 'state secret' of the hotel. Packed in an elegant wooden box, the Original Sacher-Torte is delivered worldwide and contains no chemical additives." CAFE CENTRAL KAFFEE (I forgot to give this--ed.) GROSSER BRAUNER 3.30 KLEINER BRAUNER 2.35 VEILANGERTER 3.10 EINSPANNER 3.10 CAPPUCCINO 3.65 KAFFEE HAG 3.30 KAFFEE MARIA THERESIA 5.40 FIAKER KAFFEE 5.40 IRISH COFFEE 6.00 (Again this confounding German!--ed.) MMMMMMMMMMHM--Just above the sandwich, on display in a SUBWAY shop. Why the "H"? ALL YOU CAN EAT--Another "German" sign, for www.mapitom.at. CAFE VOTIV The following is at the Cafe Votiv (www.cafe-votiv.at) near Sigmund Freud Park: DOLLAR CHIPS 2.20 WEDGES 2.20 (Is "wedges" German at all? It's everywhere--ed.) TOASTS 3.60 FRANKREICH--Brie mit Apfelscheiben mit Preiselbeeren MEXIKO--Fleischsauce, Mais, Pfefferoni m. Kase gratiniert HAWAII--Schinken, Kase und Ananas VOTIV--Speck, Zweibel, Mais mit Kase uberbacker CAFE GRIENSTEIDT I liked the selection of torten. No web address for this centrally located cafe? TORTEN UND STRUDEL SACHERTORTE 3.20 MICHADERTORTE 3.20 GRIENSTEIDTTORTE 3.20 TOPFENTORTE 3.20 MALAKOFFTORTE 3.20 FRUCHTEJOGHURTTORTE 3.20 SCHWARZWALDERTORTE 3.20 APFELSTRUDEL 2.70 TOPFENSTRUDEL 2.70 DIABETIKERSCHNITTE 2.70 KAISERSCHMARREN (EMPEROR'S PANCAKES)--Served at many places. The CAFE MOZART says "Browned omlette with stewed plums 6.80." MOZARTWURSTELL (MOZART'S SAUSAGES) are "a pair of Frankfurters with mustard and horseradish 5.40." GREEK FARMER SALAD (GRIECHISCHER BAUERNSALAT)--Seen at a place that also serves Caesar Salad. It's usually "Greek Farmer Salad" here, not simply "Greek Salad." Google both names. One restaurant's is 6.00 and has "Bell peppers, cucumber, olives, feta cheese, olive oil-dressing and oregano." ZANONI & ZANONI GELATERIA This is a busy place, at the CAFFE BRISTOL, dal 1919. One sandwich was of possible interest, and the rest are desserts. TRAMEZZINO--Thunfisch, Schinken, Mozzarella & Tomaten 2.10 mit Lachs 2.30 PROFITEROL 3.00 TIRAMISU 2.60 CANNOLO BUSSY 1.00 TOSCANELA 3.10 SACHERTORTE 3.20 MANDELTORTE 3.20 NUSSTORTE 3.20 TOPFENTORTE 3.20 SELVA NERA 2.60 TORTA DELL NONNA 2.60 TORTA DI MELE 2.60 MONTE ROSE 2.60 APFELSTRUDEL 2.60 PANNA COTTA 2.60 HOTEL SACHER So you want to eat at the Hotel? Sacher's Tafelspit with apple-horseradish sauce, chive sauce and roasted potatoes 23 Filet of beef a la "Anna Sacher" with goose and Madeira sauce, spinach souffle 27 Viennese potato soup with mushrooms 7 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 13 15:51:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: Sacher-Torte, Weiner Schnitzel, Kaiserschmarren & more In-Reply-To: <1B154395.035F8192.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #WEINER SCHNITZEL--Figlmuller advertises "The most famous Schnitzel in #Vienna." It's "seit 1905," so it's not an antedate for "Schnitzel." #See www.figlmueller.at. Wner, surely. -- Mark M. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 16:08:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:08:07 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle Message-ID: Yeah, I meant "Wiener." I have to think too much on these "ie" and "ei" words when I'm typing. It's usually just "schnitzel" here. Dave Barry's column in today's HEARLD-TRIBUNE is on internet spam. Cutting-edge stuff for about 1995. WAREZ--In the July 13-14 INTERNATIONAL HERLAD TRIBUNE, pg. 1, col. 4, a story about internet software pirates that's from the NEW YORK TIMES: Many of the pirates say they were motivated less by money than by a sense of competition, prestige and the entertainment value of distributing the pirated goods, which they call "warez." IRRATIONAL PESSIMISM, BOOMERANG ECONOMY--In the IHT, pg. 6, col. 3, "A swing to irrational pessimism," David Ignatius's piece, originally in the WASHINGTON POST. "Let's call this the 'boomerang economy,' whose operating principle is that what goes around comes around." RADATZ--"Deli" is not used here, but this looks like one. See www.radatz.at. LOVE PARADE--Vienna had one, too, but it's over. See www.loveparade.at. BERMUDA TRIANGLE--An area of Vienna when tourists get lost. I haven't yet found it. Similar to the area in Budapest called "Chicago." VILLAGE SHITS--I asked the guy here at the Mercure Hotel desk for some slang, but he refused. He said there are quite a few Hebrew/Yiddish words that they use; this was without my prompting him on this. He said that Germans call Austrians "Village Shits." He wouldn't write down the German, but you can figure it out. From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 16:09:49 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:09:49 -0400 Subject: The Word Spy for 07/12/2002 -- steampunk Message-ID: Good one, Paul. I created the 1991 e-book/catalog Beyond Cyberpunk! (on HyperCard) that covered the various sub-genres of cyberpunk sci-fi and the burgeoning "cyberculture" of the Internet. Some other cyberpunk "micro-genres" of the time: Ribofunk - Created by sci-fi author Paul DeFilippo, ribofunk was sort of an inversion of cyberpunk. Where c-punk focused on the mind, computers, logic, the virtualizing of the human body, ribofunk emphasized the body, bio-technology, the libido, A-life (artificial life), etc. Where cyberpunk's musical muse was punk rock, ribofunk's was funk and soul. Splatterpunk - Took the alienation, dystopian near-futures and amphetimine-fueled prose of c-punk into the horror genre. Chief practitioners were Clive Barker and John Shirley (a.k.a. "cyberpunk patient zero"). Cybergoth - More of a marketing tag than anything else, "cybergoth" was used by Games Workshop to describe their Road Warrior meets Eldritch magick post-apocalyptic game Dark Future (and used in the series of novels that supported it). Some of this "cybergoth" influence lives on in Games Workshop's far-future "gothic sci-fi" game Warhammer 40,000. Freestyle - A shortlived sub-genre of c-punk practiced by then-Bay Area writers Rudy Rucker, Marc Laidlaw, Richard Kadrey and others. Inspired by freestyle surfing and chaos theory (no, really). The idea was to damn all genres and "write like yourself, only moreso." Transrealism - Taking off on the "write like yourself, only moreso" adage of freestyle, Rudy Rucker published his Transrealist Manifesto. It called for combining the intensity of cyberpunk prose and the "fifteen minutes into the future" immediacy of the genre with the anything-goes openess of freestyle and the use of your own life experiences as your muse in writing fiction. Rucker claims that all of his work has become "transrealist." He takes real characters and situations from his life, grossly exaggerates them and projects them into the near future. Rucker says that, eventually, he wants to publish a CD-ROM will all of his novels on it. The reader will be able to click on any passage, in any book, and be linked to Rucker's journals, so one can see what was going on in his real life at that point and how it got mutated into fiction. Re: Steampunk One of the central inspirations of steampunk was Charles Babbage's "Difference Engine," a proposed computational device that many speculate would have worked if the technology had existed at the time to machine the many mechanical parts. So steampunk asks the question: what would have happened to history if computers and the information age had existed concurrently with the industrial revolution of the 19th century? Gar Paul McFedries wrote: > steampunk (STEEM.punk) n. > > A literary genre that applies science fiction or fantasy elements to > historical settings and that features steam-powered, mechanical > machines rather than electronic devices. Also: steam-punk. > > Arcanum is a prime example of steampunk, a subgenre of science > fiction that explores the displacement of ancient ways by modern > technology. Like Thief, with its steam-powered mechanical robot > guards, Arcanum reconfigures the fantasy genre by imagining a past of > magic and sorcery clashing with a present distinguished by advanced > mechanical technology. > --Charles Herold, "Yielding (or Not) to the Magic of Exotica," The > New York Times, October 4, 2001 > > See Also: > > chick lit: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/chicklit.asp > > hiss and tell: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/hissandtell.asp > > Kmart realism: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/Kmartrealism.asp > > issue literature: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/issueliterature.asp > > Judas biography: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/Judasbiography.asp > > me-moir: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/me-moir.asp > > plutography: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/plutography.asp > > tart noir: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/tartnoir.asp > > Backgrounder > --------------------------------- > Although there are antecedents, William Gibson's 1982 novel > _Neuromancer_ is generally considered to be the first example of > a literary form called "cyberpunk." This science fiction subgenre > places computers, networks, and electronics (the "cyber-" part) > inside a future that is anarchic and often dystopian (the "punk" > part; from the anarchic, dystopian punk rock music of the mid- to > late-70s). Move the setting to the past, especially the Victorian > age, take out the electronics and replace them with mechanical > devices, especially elaborate, steam-powered contraptions, and > you have a new genre: steampunk. > > Steampunk imagines what the past would have been like if the future > hadn't happened so quickly. It imagines, in other words, what > engineers and inventors might have come up with if they'd had > another, say, one hundred years to tinker with mechanical and > steam-powered machines. (Some examples: a steam-powered > flamethrower; a spaceship made of steel and wood.) > > I should note, as well, that people are also describing other media > as "steampunk," especially video games and movies. For the latter, > the steampunk label has been applied to films such as Wild, Wild > West, Brazil, and even Edward Scissorhands. > > Here's the earliest citation I could confure up for today's word: > > Jeter, along with fellow novelists Tim Powers and James Blaylock, > seems to be carving out a new sub-genre of science fiction with his > new book. Whereas such authors as William Gibson, Michael Swanwick > and Walter Jon Williams have explored the futuristic commingling of > human being and computer in their "cyberpunk" novels and stories, > Jeter and his compatriots, whom he half-jokingly has dubbed > "steampunks," are having a grand time creating wacko historical > fantasies. > --Michael Berry, "Wacko Victorian Fantasy Follows 'Cyberpunk' Mold," > The San Francisco Chronicle, June 25, 1987 > > ======================================================== > Words About Words: > --------------------------------- > It is the enormous and variegated lexicon of English, far more than > the mere numbers and geographical spread of its speakers, that truly > makes our native tongue marvelous -- makes it, in fact, a medium for > the precise, vivid and subtle expression of thought and emotion that > has no equal, past or present. > --Robert Claiborne, American editor and writer, _Our Marvelous Native > Tongue_, 1983 > ======================================================== > > The WordSpy mailing list is now available in an HTML version that > bears an uncanny resemblance to the pages on the Word Spy Web site > (see the address below). If you'd like to try it out, send a note to > listmanager at logophilia.com and include only the command "html > wordspy" (without the quotation marks) in the Subject line. > > For more Word Spy words, see the Word Spy Archives: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/ > > You are currently subscribed as garethb2 at earthlink.net. > To remove this address from the list, you have two choices: > > Send a message to listmanager at logophilia.com and include only the command > "leave wordspy" (without the quotation marks) in the Subject line. > > Or, > > Click the address below, or paste it into your Web browser: > http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/list/remove.asp?Email=garethb2 at earthlink.net&ID=14674 > ======================================================== > > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 13 17:08:54 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:08:54 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <093F145B.274749E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: According to http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/CUDS8/cud853, the Usenet group alt.binaries.warez was in existence in 1996 when it was being deleted from a server, so it was likely founded sometime before then. Does anyone know where you can find when a Usenet group was started? Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 9:08 AM > WAREZ--In the July 13-14 INTERNATIONAL HERLAD TRIBUNE, > pg. 1, col. 4, a story about internet software pirates > that's from the NEW YORK TIMES: > Many of the pirates say they were motivated less by > money than by a sense of competition, prestige and the > entertainment value of distributing the pirated goods, > which they call "warez." From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 17:10:09 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:10:09 EDT Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: For me palm, balm, almond, Palmer, calm are pronounced without /l/ and are exactly the same as pom, bomb, Com-. This I think I am right in saying, was the usual Northern US way of doing things, until the spelling pronunciationists got involved and the /l/s came back in, cf. "often" with /t/. I think it was Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost. In E. New England there was also no /l/ in the good old days, but the vowel of palm was the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front vowel, lower and distinct from ash) while Com-, etc. has a low back rounded vowel, the same as the vowel in Caught. Don't know what the Southern situation is, but would guess that /l/ is coming back there too....or is it possible that it's always been there through the centuries at the dialect level? Does the UK have /l/ in these words in any dialects? I don't think so, certainly not in RP. /l/ was also lost after ash (half, calf, salmon, and should be lost in salve, but especially in the verb has made a big comeback for those who use it in, in Shakespeare, for example), or in folk, yolk. Dale Coye From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 17:14:39 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:14:39 -0700 Subject: Penetration Packages (military speak) In-Reply-To: <3AEB53E6.3D62C6D8.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > On today's DrudgeReport.com, it says that China may have > "penetration packages" to defeat U.S. missile defense systems. > > Does the military have to borrow the terms used in good old sex? I never heard that one, but I am familiar with "pen-aids," or "penetration aids." This one dates to 1989 and probably much earlier. There is also the "PMS Avenger." PMS = Pedestal Mounted Stinger. It's a humvee with four stinger anti-aircraft missiles mounted on a pedestal. Also 1989. From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 17:48:25 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:48:25 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > According to http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/CUDS8/cud853, the > Usenet group alt.binaries.warez was in existence in 1996 when it was > being deleted from a server, so it was likely founded sometime > before then. Does anyone know where you can find when a Usenet group > was started? If the group started post-1981, you should be able to find the earliest messages on Google (Advanced Groups search). They may not have the very first messages for a particular group, but they'll probably come pretty close. For alt.binaries.warez, Google has a post from 13 Dec 1995. Google doesn't archive binaries groups, but you can still get a feel for the date from crossposting. There are a total of 3 crossposts to alt.binaries.warez that month and about 30 in Jan 1996. So it looks like a December 1995 date for its inception. Google also has posts to alt.warez.ibm-pc.apps from Oct 1995. It also has December 1995 posts to alt.2600.warez. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jul 13 18:01:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:01:30 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <002d01c22a95$7d978190$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:48:25AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > > If the group started post-1981, you should be able to find the earliest > messages on Google (Advanced Groups search). They may not have the very > first messages for a particular group, but they'll probably come pretty > close. > > For alt.binaries.warez, Google has a post from 13 Dec 1995. Google doesn't > archive binaries groups, but you can still get a feel for the date from > crossposting. There are a total of 3 crossposts to alt.binaries.warez that > month and about 30 in Jan 1996. So it looks like a December 1995 date for > its inception. > > Google also has posts to alt.warez.ibm-pc.apps from Oct 1995. It also has > December 1995 posts to alt.2600.warez. If you're interested in the word "warez" there's no real interest in when the first newsgroup devoted to warez arose; what matters is when the word "warez" itself first appeared in Google Groups. And the first Usenet post with the word seems to have been in 1987, in a post to comp.society.futures. This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but perhaps (I haven't particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. Michael Quinion, any opinion? Jesse Sheidlower OED From e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET Sat Jul 13 18:11:20 2002 From: e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:11:20 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: The "abeets" pronunciation certainly extended to (perhaps I should say permeated) Bridgeport, as did the designation "pie". Enid Pearsons ============== I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for | "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's | Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone | outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? | Larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 18:15:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:15:25 EDT Subject: Dumspam of the week Message-ID: I just got a pornospam that read "When was the last time you had an "E" Cup in your: Hand". That's even worse than the trial last week for a boating accident, in which a defense witness said the defendant "was always very conscientious of his surroundings". - Jim Landau P.S. to Barry Popik: That "hot dog frankfurter" was a bad translation of the old proberb "Kissing a man without a mustache is like eating a hot dog without the mustard." From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 18:17:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:17:47 EDT Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle Message-ID: In a message dated 07/13/2002 12:08:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BERMUDA TRIANGLE--An area of Vienna when tourists get lost. I haven't yet > found it. "Finding" it is a logical impossibility. You are a tourist. If you manage to reach the place where tourists get lost, then you cannot be said to have "found" the place, since you can't be found if you're lost. From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 18:17:54 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:17:54 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <20020713180130.GA6882@panix.com> Message-ID: > If you're interested in the word "warez" there's no real > interest in when the first newsgroup devoted to warez arose; > what matters is when the word "warez" itself first appeared > in Google Groups. And the first Usenet post with the word > seems to have been in 1987, in a post to > comp.society.futures. True, it doesn't help with finding the point of origin, but I wouldn't say there's "no real interest" in knowing when a Usenet group arose. But for computer/internet terms like "warez," the appearance of Usenet groups devoted to them may be a good indication of when the term came into widespread use among hackers/computer-types. > This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but > perhaps (I haven't > particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. Michael > Quinion, any > opinion? It's also surprising that there's an eight-year gap between the term's appearance and the founding of Usenet groups devoted to warez. I would have thought the period would have been much shorter. Then again, as I type this I realize that 1994-95 is the period when widespread public access to the Internet became available. So maybe the Usenet dates aren't significant at all. The groups started then because that's when there were large numbers of hackers on Usenet. Never mind. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 18:27:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:27:10 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <007501c22a98$b5038ea0$6701a8c0@planetb> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0400 7/13/02, Enid Pearsons wrote: >The "abeets" pronunciation certainly extended to (perhaps I should say >permeated) Bridgeport, as did the designation "pie". > >Enid Pearsons > >============== > I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for >| "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's >| Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone >| outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? > >| Larry Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) Larry From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Jul 13 18:39:34 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:39:34 +0100 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <20020713180130.GA6882@panix.com> Message-ID: > This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but perhaps > (I haven't particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. > Michael Quinion, any opinion? I'm a little surprised it's that early. (I've been trying the same Google search, but attempts time out before getting an answer.) The first printed example in my database is from 1996 and the first time I remember seeing it online is a couple of years earlier. It belongs in the same class as creative misspellings like 'd00dz' and so is presumably of the same vintage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Jul 13 19:24:00 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:24:00 -0400 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: I wouldn't dream of inserting an L in palm, salmon &c. or a T in often: to me it's decidedly NC, so I am puzzled by the claim by "Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost." For my speech I would agree that "the vowel of palm was the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front vowel, lower and distinct from ash)" but since the cot-vowel is unrounded for me it's possible that pom has the more back vowel and palm the more central one. BTW, for me almond is L-less and has a long low ash. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 13 19:55:31 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:55:31 -0500 Subject: "Kicktales"--mispronunciation of "cocktails" Message-ID: At 10:59 PM -0400 7/7/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >I received this question from a colleague: > >> A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond >> lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" >> (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" >> as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as >> told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this >> expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other >> sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and >> "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on >> some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would >> appreciate any information about the word. > >I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? > >Fred Shapiro The answer is found on page 59 of _Courtroom Kicktales_, under the heading "LAPSUS LINGUAE": "Mrs. Elegant, who flung the party at Newport, had John Smith arrested for using obscene language. She was on the stand at the trial. Mrs. Elegant: 'I had invited John solely because he is the son of an old friend. When sober there was little connection between his brain and tongue, and when he had several drinks they parted company altogether. When the guests were leaving he was telling me what a good time he had had, finally coming out with : "Ah, I tell you, Mrs. Elegant, them kicktails had one on them like a mule."' Judge Smaht; 'I shall dismiss the defendant under the principle of lapsus linguae [slip of the tongue to my friends in Hoboken]." ****** Btw, "lapsus linguae" in the last sentence appears in italics, and the bracketed comment at the very end ("slip of the tongue to my friends in Hoboken) is made by the author, John May. And the judge's name is spelled "Smaht" (with -h-). So "kicktales" may be understood as "tales with a kick," just as the cocktails that John Smith drank had a kick like a mule. The book consists of jokes, humorous anecdotes, humorous poems etc. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 20:25:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:25:23 -0400 Subject: 1881 Vienna menu Message-ID: The Theodor Herzl-Hof is a short walk from where I'm staying. Herzl invented Zionism; in response to pogroms, he thought that it would be a good idea if Jews had a homeland to call their own. That was before our current enlightened age--we now know that Zionism is racism. EURO/EUROS--I was told that it should be EURO DOLLARS. People I've heard say EURO, not EUROS. NEWSPAPER BAGS--These things are all over the city. In NYC, they're the newspaper boxes where you get your VILLAGE VOICE. Here, they're plastic bags. You're kindly requested to take just one newspaper, and to leave the proper amount in a metal box. I don't know if there's a special name for this. SUMMERSTAGE DRINKS--Pancho's at Summerstage offers: HORNY TOAD MARGARITA--zitronensaft, lime juice, triple sec, sauza hormitos 8 CAIPIRAIHA--limetten, rohrzucker, lime juice, tequila 6.2 CAIPIRINHA--rohrzucker, limetten, cacheca 6.2 CAIPIROWA--limetten, rohrzucker, vodka 6.2 LEBOWSKY--milch, kaluha, vodka, auf eis 6.2 VERY LONG ISLAND--triple sec vodka, rum, tequila, gin, cola 12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HOTEL STEFANIE (owned by that great "Austrian" chain, Best Western) used to be called WHITE ROSE, but changed its name in 1881. The 2 May 1881 GALA-DINER menu, in French and German, celebrating the marriage of Prince Rudolph of Austria-Hungary and Princess Stephanie of Belgium, is in the window: Potage a la Reine--Geflugel-Suppe mit Geflugelklosschen Petites croutes aux mouviettes--Kleine Lerchen-Pastetchen Truites, sauce hollandaise--Forellen mit hollandischer Sauce Piece et filet de boeuf--Englischer Braten und Rindslende Timbale de becasses a la financiere--Schnepfen-Pastete Escalopes de homard a la Maintenon--Hummer-Scheiben mit Libesapfel Sorbet Poulardes a la polonaise. Salade--Gebratene Poularden mit Salat Asperges en branches--Stangen-SPargel Pouding a la Chipolata--Chipolata-Pudding Moscovite aux oranges--Orangen-Gelee Fromage national et hester--Einheimischer Kase und hester-Kase Glace aux griottes et fromage de dames--Weischselkirsch-Eis und Eis-Cremetorte Desert--Nachtisch The HOTEL STEFANIE has these drinks and desserts: STEFANIE SURPRISE--Blue Curacao, Vodka, Zitrone, Sekt 6.90 PALM BEACH (Alkoholfrei)--Maracuja Sirup, Grapefruitjuice, Orangenjuice, 5.10 KAFFEESPEZIALITATEN EINSPANNER--Grosse Kaffee mit Schlagobers 3.20 IRISH COFFEE--Grosser Kaffee, Irish Wisky, Schlagobers 6.55 MARIA THERESIA--Grosser Kaffee, Grand Marnier, Schlagobers 5.80 FIAKER KAFFEE--Grosser Kaffee, Rum, Schlagobers und Schokolade 5.10 (It's "Irish Coffee" on every menu! It's the "Hot Dog" of drinks!...Did OED finally add "Maria Theresa"?-ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 13 20:32:06 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:32:06 -0500 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten--not in WorldCat Message-ID: Barry asks if _Kochbuch für Israeliten_, 1815, is available in the U.S., but I don't find it listed in WorldCat. Would there perhaps be a better sleuth out there than I who could locate a copy? Gerald Cohen At 11:45 AM -0400 7/11/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN > > StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buche der >Staatsbibliotek), also available at >http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. > I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable >results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, >it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. > Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR >ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any >library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by >inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 23:07:38 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:07:38 -0400 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten--not in WorldCat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Barry asks if _Kochbuch f�r Israeliten_, 1815, is available in the U.S., > but I don't find it listed in WorldCat. Would there perhaps be a > better sleuth out there than I who could locate a copy? There is nothing in Eureka either for this title. Fred Shapiro From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 23:26:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:26:55 -0400 Subject: Even more Austrian food Message-ID: I guess I'll pay a student to copy the 1815 cookbook. This had better have the whole magilla of Jewish food. FWIW: here's a magazine called HAWK that's sold here. It seems to have naked pictures of young girls. ITAL EISSALON AM SCHWEDENPLATZ A popular spot. See the web site at http://www.gelato.at. PIZZA AND PASTA BUON GIORNO ITALIA AL CAPONE (pizza)--Tomaten, Kase, Schinken, Salami, Champignon, Speck, Yweibel, Oregano 6.90 NORDSEE A BISMARCK BAGUETTE is 1.95, a BREMER BAGUETTE is 1.75. Under KULT-SNACK, "FISH & CHIPS" is given, just like "HOT DOG" and "IRISH COFFEE." However, below that is the German "3 Stuck Backfisch 2.95, 4 Stuck Backfisch 3.50." And if you want just the "CHIPS," they don't have that, but they have "POMMES FRITES 2.25." A Popik restaurant review: Nordsee Fish & Chips are awful! I have tons of schnitzel stuff here, but I'll leave that for another time. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 01:53:05 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:53:05 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn said: >> (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) << In the FWIW department, re _apizza_: I was picking up a pizza today from Jerry's Pizza in Middletown, CT. Jerry was there. He appears to be in his 60s, and has a thick Italian accent. Though many Middletown residents of Italian heritage hail originally or ultimately from Sicily, and many from Middletown's sister city of Melilli, not Jerry. I asked Jerry about _apizza_. His response was that the word is not SPELLED that way, that it is only said like that. Now in Italy, with its prestige Northern dialect, that suggests to me that the form _apizza_ is, per Jerry, dialectal (at best) or ignorant, i.e., not in keeping with standard form. I asked Jerry where he was from in Italy, and he proudly said, "Napoli". Of course, Jerry could simply have been demeaning the New Haven area Italian Americans. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 02:08:40 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:08:40 -0400 Subject: 1881 Vienna menu In-Reply-To: <636A0E89.2EC12376.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry P said: >> NEWSPAPER BAGS--These things are all over the city. In NYC, they're the newspaper boxes where you get your VILLAGE VOICE. Here, they're plastic bags. You're kindly requested to take just one newspaper, and to leave the proper amount in a metal box. I don't know if there's a special name for this. << On a different but related note, I am struck by the relatively recent practice in the US (elsewhere, too?) of small convenience stores and restaurants having a penny tray at the cash register, where one can leave or take a penny or two to make exact change. Some of these say on them "Give a penny, take a penny", but I don't know if there is one term to apply to this practice. I did not notice this practice in my youth or early adulthood (I'm 51), but it seems quite widespread now (though not in large chain stores). As to the increasing unimportance of the penny, I add that a 30ish person I was speaking with last week said that she throws away pennies she finds in her pocket at the end of the day. This surprised me, but some others of the same age range said they do this, too. Frank Abate From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 02:09:22 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:09:22 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: In a message dated 7/12/02 12:08:52 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << t is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). >> It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" article. Steve Boatti From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 02:12:42 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:12:42 -0400 Subject: FW: apizza; pie Message-ID: What Steve says below jibes with what Jerry the pizza parlor guy said to me, as posted just a bit earlier. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Steve Boatti Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 10:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: apizza; pie In a message dated 7/12/02 12:08:52 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << t is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). >> It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" article. Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 02:14:07 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:14:07 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/13/02 2:26:09 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) >> This explains why, while you find an "apizza" stand in Meriden, you don't find any in Middletown, which has a large Italian population and is only 7 miles away. Most of the Middletown immigrants came not from Campania, but from a small Sicilian town named Melilli. Steve Boatti From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 14 02:42:06 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:42:06 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: Mark: > What is "amond" with no written "l"? It's "almond" the way most people around here(Pacific NW) seem to pronounce it. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 14 02:43:51 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:43:51 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: Dale: > For me palm, balm, almond, Palmer, calm are pronounced without /l/ and are > exactly the same as pom, bomb, Com-. This I think I am right in saying, was > the usual Northern US way of doing things, until the spelling > pronunciationists got involved and the /l/s came back in, cf. "often" with > /t/. I think it was Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the > lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes > were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost. In E. New > England there was also no /l/ in the good old days, but the vowel of palm was > the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front > vowel, lower and distinct from ash) while Com-, etc. has a low back rounded > vowel, the same as the vowel in Caught. > Don't know what the Southern situation is, but would guess that /l/ is > coming back there too....or is it possible that it's always been there > through the centuries at the dialect level? Does the UK have /l/ in these > words in any dialects? I don't think so, certainly not in RP. /l/ was also > lost after ash (half, calf, salmon, and should be lost in salve, but > especially in the verb has made a big comeback for those who use it in, in > Shakespeare, for example), or in folk, yolk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the distinct impression that the sounded l in those words was NE US. I don't know about the South either, but I can't recall anybody in Central Texas sounding the l's in those word either. Anne G From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Jul 14 02:49:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:49:19 -0400 Subject: Euro Dollar Message-ID: I'm not sure what the context of "euro dollar" was, but "eurodollar" has an established meaning: A U.S. dollar on deposit with a bank abroad, especially in Europe. I don't know if this ever causes confusion with the new euro currency. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Sat 7/13/2002 4:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: 1881 Vienna menu EURO/EUROS--I was told that it should be EURO DOLLARS. People I've heard say EURO, not EUROS. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Jul 14 04:44:40 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:44:40 -0700 Subject: pom/ palm Message-ID: Having grown up among palm trees in the Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, I can assure you that no one there ever pronounced the in , which was always rendered with an /a/. Ditto for . But here in Tucson, I hear some of the self-conscious newspersons on TV pronouncing an /l/ in and . Dale's comments about the low front [a] used in (of the hand) in New England explains the folk-etymologized pronunciation of /paen/ found in the North; I once encountered it from a retired farmer in west-central Illinois. Rudy From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 14 06:51:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:51:00 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that >render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus >standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard >numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" >article. I've seen this idea somewhere else too. But this doesn't answer the question to my satisfaction. Assuming a dialect where the feminine definite article is written "a", I would expect "a pizza" to appear in that dialect in place of standard Italian "la pizza" ... but in place of standard "pizza" I would expect dialectal "pizza". Or to put it differently, if e.g. "Abate Apizza Restaurant" is an equivalent of "Abate La Pizza Restaurant" then to correspond to the many "[Name] Apizza" places I would expect to see many examples of "[Name] La Pizza" or "[Name] Lapizza" ... and I don't see these AFAIK. Because of my deplorable broad ignorance of Italian and its dialects, I can't judge whether a reanalysis such as "La pizza" > "L'ap[p]izza" or "Una pizza" > "Un'ap[p]izza" would be plausible ... perhaps leading to "pizza" > "ap[p]izza"? For that matter, in dialects with "la" replaced with "a" are there things like "a amica" (= "l'amica" = "the friend"), or does the definite article just disappear in such a context, or is the "L" preserved sometimes? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 07:50:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 03:50:43 -0400 Subject: Sheidlower, Metcalf in FINANCIAL TIMES Message-ID: Are Jesse and Allan trying push me to a posting record or what? Both are in the FINANCIAL TIMES, July 13/July 14, 2002, pg. 7, cols. 6-7: _Respect to_ _the lingo of_ _the Yanks_ Bling-bling, borking, borscht. The Oxford English Dictionary has recognized a new regional variation, writes _Holly Yeager_ (The article represents shocking new market insights. Jesse feels that the market is overvalued, but Allan thinks this represents a good buying opportunity...Nah, I made that part up. They give us no financial advice--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 13:57:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:57:34 -0400 Subject: Schonbrunn's "Apple Strudel Show" Message-ID: I apologize for past spelling errors (Wiener, Potsdamer Plotz, Pessimism, et al.). My brains are still in Alaska. I visited Schonbrunn today, the palace of Franz Josef and others. I asked to see any historian on duty. Were there any historical menus of the place that I could look at? Well, no, there weren't. I was told that Franz Josef ate apple strudel, but that's to be expected in Vienna in the 1800s. There were a few strudel books (in German) for sale, but I didn't see any solid historical information on the dish in any of them. Schonbrunn has a bakery, and a chef gave a demonstration of baking apple strudel. There is a pamphlet with this web info: www.cafe-wien.at, residenz at cafe-wien.at. I asked the chef if there was anything in Vienna like our CIA (Culinary Institute of America), where I could walk in and look at books and menus. She said there wasn't. So it all boils down to one day, Monday, where I'll have to do all my research into the history of a major European cuisine in just a few hours. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 14:39:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:39:40 EDT Subject: 1881 Vienna menu Message-ID: In a message dated 07/13/2002 10:09:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I am struck by the relatively recent > practice in the US (elsewhere, too?) of small convenience stores and > restaurants having a penny tray at the cash register, where one can leave or > take a penny or two to make exact change. Some of these say on them "Give a > penny, take a penny", but I don't know if there is one term to apply to this > practice. I did not notice this practice in my youth or early adulthood > (I'm 51), but it seems quite widespread now (though not in large chain > stores). I refer to the little trays as "penny buckets". My impression is that the practice appeared and became widespread very suddenly. When? Perhaps early 1980's. I recall an occasion, I think early 80's but I'm not sure, when I stopped in a rural Pennsylvania village on the first day of hunting season. (On the way I had seen no less than four road-kill deer, so this particular hunting season was overdue.) I recall in some store (probably a mini-grocery attached to a gas station) there was a penny bucket with a sign on it reading "Need a penny? Take a penny? Nedd two pennies? Get a job." I wonder if 7-11 or some other nationwide chain decided that having penny buckets, as well as being a for-real convenience to its customers, would also add a nice homey touch to their check-out counters. This guess, if correct, would explain why the practice, previously unknown, blossomed so widely so quickly. The cafeteria where I work (which I imagine sells 1,000 lunches per day) has three cashiers and each one has a penny bucket, a policy which, if I remember correctly, began when new management took over a couple of years ago and make a big fuss about how friendly their employees were. Large stores with multiple checkout lines such as Safeway, Super-Fresh, K-mart, Walmart, etc. do not use penny buckets for a reason. In such stores each cashier, when reporting to a cash register, is issued a cash drawer with a standard amount of cash in it. That way if a customer ever complains of being shortchanged, the manager simply counts the cash in the cash drawer, checks the computerized register for the amount taken in since the cashier logged on, adds the standard issued amount, and then answers the customer yes or no based on whether a discrepancy is found. Use of a penny bucket would make for small errors in the reconciliation, enough perhaps to make it impossible to determine if a customer's complaint were correct, since it is common to feed the penny bucket from the penny bin in the cash register tray whenever it gets low. In a convenience store the cashiers do not log in---there are long gaps sometimes between customers, and whichever employee is nearest the checkout counter when a customer is ready becomes the cashier. Also in a large multi-checkout-line store, if a cashier runs low on pennies, s/he simply "buys" a roll from the manager. In a 7-11 or similar store, it is not uncommon for the register to run low on x denomination of coins, and there is no central cash source to buy rolls of coins from. If the register runs out of pennies, the penny bucket comes in handy (or else the cashier simply forgives the pennies beyond 5 or 10 cents). -Jim Landau FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sun Jul 14 17:10:58 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:10:58 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: A Google search returns a number of lapizza hits, most of which are not in English. The following site is in English, but it doesn't refer to the edible pizza. http://www.sics.se/~larre/lapizza/ George Cole Shippensburg University From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 21:41:33 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:41:33 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: FWIW, the website of Modern, an old line "apizza" shop in New Haven, asserts that apizza is Naples slang for pizza. Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 21:44:33 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:44:33 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: << In a message dated 7/13/02 2:26:09 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) >> >> A Google search for "apizza" yields resaturants with this word in their name as far afield as Naugatuck, Derby and Waterbury, CT, and Mokena, IL. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 01:24:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:24:55 -0400 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. There is a Big Apple nightclub at www.nightlife-vienna.com/BA/. If you solve the Big Apple, you don't get anything from the club. Much like New York City itself. EURO: That thing about "Euro" being from "Euro Dollar" was from the guy at the internet place, so that's how reliable it was. The coins have "EURO CENT." The bills (there is no one Euro bill) have "EURO." Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? DEMEL Demel has been around since 1786. See www.demel.at. I went there and bought there English language pamphlet, 12 FAMOUS DEMEL-RECIPES (Vienna, 1995). It's about 20 pages, with no page numbers. The recipes are: Marble Gugelhupf, Golden Crescents, Viennese Ladies (Looks like Ladyfingers--ed.), Amadeus Discs, Casatta Bombe, Strawberry Cream Cake, Marzipan Apples, Nut or Poppy Seed Strudel, Vanilla Crescents, Iced Coffee Roll, Crescent Moons, Durnsteiner cake. GERSTENER This popular place has been around since 1847. See www.gernstner.at. I didn't see anything special at that site. LEHMANN Another confectionary web site is www.lehmann-wien.at. SCHNITZEL MENU MIKI'S SCHNITZELBOX, Leopoldsgasse 11, gave me a menu. So here's your schnitzel: KLEINE SPEISEN: Schnitzelsemmel 1.90 Schnitzelsemmel garniert 2.20 Schnitzelburger 2.70 Cordonburger 2.90 Pljeskavicaburger 3.00 Cevapciciburger 3.00 Fischburger 2.70 Kaseburger 2.70 Gemuseburger 2.70 Putenschnitzelsemmel 2.40 Putenschnitzelsemmel garniert 2.60 Putenburger 3.10 (Obviously, a Russia favorite?--ed.) Putencordonburger 3.30 Toast (Kase + Schninken) 1.90 Langos 1.70 Pizzalangos 2.40 Debrezinerlangos 2.40 GROSSE SPEISEN: Emmenthaler gebacken 4.60 Champignon gebacken 4.60 Gemuselaibchen gebacken 4.60 Karfiol gebacken 4.60 Huhnerleber gebacken 4.60 Huhnerleber gerostetet 4.80 Bohnensuppe 3.40 Krautrouladen 4.00 VOM SCHWEIN: Grillteller 9,50 Wienerschnitzel 3.50 Naturschnitzel 3.70 Pariser Schnitzel 3.80 Cordon Bleu 4.00 Bauernschnitzel 4.60 Pleskavica (fasch. Laibchen nach Balkanart) 5.50 Spiess 2 Stk. & Beilage 5.50 Cevapcici 6 Stk. & Beilage 5.50 Berner Wurstel & Beilage 5.50 Scholle gebacken 5.30 VON DER PUTE: Putenschnitzel 4.20 Pariser Schnitzel 4.70 Naturschnitzel 4.80 Cordon Bleu 5.10 Bauernschnitzel 5.30 BEILAGEN: Pommes Frites 1.40 Bratkartoffeln 1.40 Petersilienkartoffel 1.50 Reis 1.40 Kartoffelsalat 1.40 Mayonaisesalat 1.50 Gurkensalat 1.40 Gemischerter Salat 1.40 Gruner Salat 1.50 Palatschinken 2.40 Pudding 1.50 From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 15 08:37:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:37:41 +0100 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel In-Reply-To: <13DEB65B.70CB43E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" > on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? There is some confusion over this. It rests on a misunderstanding of the original EU directive, which seemed to suggest that "euro" is invariant in the plural in all circumstances. This is observed by many organisations in formal documents, including the Irish and British central banks and other financial institutions. However, in popular usage the usual orthographic rules take precedence. The English Style Guide of the European Commission Translation Service, at , takes this commonsense approach: > 12.12 Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the > Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both 'euro' and > 'cent' are to be written without 's' in English. Do this when > amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this > rule. Elsewhere, and especially in documents intended for the > general public, use the natural plural with 's' for both terms. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 15:17:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:17:46 -0400 Subject: Polka in Vienna (1839); Julius Meinl Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. Frankfurt is Lufthansa's hub, so I fly back there tomorrow. I have to stay overnight and I'll arrive about 4 p.m.; I'll possibly have half an hour of library time. I fly to Kiev on the 17th. ----------------------------------------------------------------- JULIUS MEINL This is a great place to shop for food, like Balducci's in New York. See www.meinl.com, or www.meinlamgraben.at. ---------------------------------------------------------------- DOES ANYONE IN VIENNA HAVE A MENU COLLECTION? I didn't see menus on the web site of the Osterreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://www.onb.ac.at. I asked, was sent to another division, and then was told they had none. I was sent to the Kaiser's silver collection (Sure, silver knives and forks. That's close), and the information person there didn't know either. Let's say you're in the food business in Vienna. You, say, cater an affair for the Kaiser's wedding. You throw that menu out? Wouldn't you print it about a thousand times? Where is an Austrian menu collection? I was told to see a recent book by one Bakos, GAUMENSCHMAUS UND SEELENFUTTER, but I'll do that in the states. ---------------------------------------------------------------- POLKA IN VIENNA OED's first "polka" is 1844, although I've found 1843 in English. The OED note states that "polka" went from Prague in 1835 to Vienna in 1839. I went to the Technical University (anything to get out of the N.B., waited an hour, and was brought 1839-1840 volumes (the size of 10 phone books) OESTERREICHISCH KAISERLICHE PRIVILEGIRTE WIENER ZEITUNG (later, just WIENER ZEITUNG). 27 August 1839, pg. 1202, cols. 2-3 ad: Im Berlage der f.f. hof u. priv. Kunst und Rusitalienhandlung des Tobias Haslinger in Wien, am Graben, im Edlen von Trattnernschen Frenhofe Rv. 618 ist neu erstschienen und zu haben: _Die beliebte neue POLKA. Bohmischer Nationaltanz fur das Pianoforte._ Componirt von Pet. Pergler, Capellmeister des burgerl Scharfschutzen-Music Corps in Prag. Preis 15 fr. 25 September 1839, pg. 1346, col. 2 ad: Joh. Hoffmann in Prag (...) des Tobias Haslinger (...) Original Bohmische Nationaltanze. (...) Hilmar (Fr.), Polka a la Lutzer f. d. Pianoforte 15 fr. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 15:39:48 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:39:48 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>bird, at least) >>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>> Anne G >> >>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>homophones. >>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>"hawk". >> >Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >Mary/merry/marry ones. > How are you on hoarse horses? Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 15:58:53 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:58:53 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: > >ISTR a finding, prob. by Labov, that people can maintain distinctions in >their own production that they fail to recognize in other people's >speech or their own. Absolutely. Labov has several papers on the topic, and there's extensive discussion in his 1994 book. In addition, Marianna Di Paolo and I had a paper on this phenomenon in Language Variation and Change in 1995. Marianna has some additional work specifically on the cot/caught near-merger in Utah. Essentially, many folks produce words in these classes more distinctly when they're not focussing on the contrast. That is, if the lists of words they're reading into a tape recorder just contain words in the COT and CAUGHT classes, there's less distinction than if the words are embedded in a list in which all English vowels are represented. In addition, people's accuracy at labeling the two classes in a classic speech perception experiment is only somewhat above chance, but they can make use of the presence or absence of a distinction in making the social judgements implicit in a matched guise experiment. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:13:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:13:01 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Laurence Horn said: >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> > >How are you on hoarse horses? > >Alice > OK, OK, I already confessed to dInIs. No distinction among hoarse horses. Or coarse courses. Please delete the overenthusiastic "all" above. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:16:46 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:16:46 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>Laurence Horn said: > > > >>>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>>homophones. >>>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>>"hawk". >>>> >>>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>>Mary/merry/marry ones. >>> >> >>How are you on hoarse horses? >> >>Alice >> >OK, OK, I already confessed to dInIs. No distinction among hoarse >horses. Or coarse courses. Please delete the overenthusiastic "all" >above. Well, that's what I get for breaking my rule of never responding to posts before I've plodded through accumulated backlog. In other words, I didn't see dInIs' post (and the subsequent discussion) until after I'd posted. Mea culpa. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:35:58 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:35:58 -0700 Subject: Euro(s) In-Reply-To: <13DEB65B.70CB43E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: It's common in many European languages not to inflect the name of their currency for number, at least when giving a specific amount or the denomination of a bill or coin. E.g., pre-Euro Germany had eine Mark, zwei Mark, etc., Holland had een Gulden, twee Gulden, etc. Austria officially had ein Schilling, zwei Schilling, etc.--however, "zwei Schillinge" was common in colloquial speech. One of my instructors in a German-for-foreigners class in Vienna (way back when) told us that lots of people said "zwei Schillinge" but that that was incorrect. So it would be natural to extend this pattern to the "Euro." Britain always had "one pound, two pounds." (But I noticed once that South Africa apparently had "one Rand, two Rand.") --On Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:24 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The coins have "EURO CENT." The bills (there is no one Euro bill) have > "EURO." Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard > "EUROS" on BBC just now. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 16:57:54 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:57:54 EDT Subject: Euro(s) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/2002 12:36:42 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << It's common in many European languages not to inflect the name of their currency for number, at least when giving a specific amount or the denomination of a bill or coin. >> This is true in many areas of the American South as well, at least where pennies are involved. Many times I have been told by locals, "Your change is [eighteen, etc.] cent." From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 15 18:19:46 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:19:46 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <3D3081F6.5209.2631940@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > I'm a little surprised it's that early. (I've been trying the same > Google search, but attempts time out before getting an answer.) The > first printed example in my database is from 1996 and the first time > I remember seeing it online is a couple of years earlier. It belongs > in the same class as creative misspellings like 'd00dz' and so is > presumably of the same vintage. d00d5 and other similar terms I've always known as B1FF5P3AK -- B1FF was a prolific and amusing poster in the early days of USENET who used alphanumerics constantly. -- Steve From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 15 18:37:40 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:37:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I done asked and he done cofessed. dInIs >Laurence Horn said: >>At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>>> >>>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>>bird, at least) >>>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>>> Anne G >>> >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> > >How are you on hoarse horses? > >Alice > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 19:44:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:44:57 -0400 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog Message-ID: The exchange rate gets worse every day. I hope I still have money when I get home. Another Austrian web site, from the guys who cater next to the Silver collection: www.eurestcatering.at, and catering at eurest.at. --------------------------------------------------------------- AUSTRALIAN HOT DOG Found at a little hot dog booth: VIENNA'S GOLDEN GATE TAKE AWAY (Yes, an English name--ed.) HAMBURG SCHNITZEL SEMMEL AUSTRALISCHES HOT DOG CHILLI HOT DOG AUSTRALISCHES BIER LANGER (Well, Foster's is advertised on the shack. But what is an Australian Hot Dog? Is that the one with kangaroo?--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- VIENNA COOKBOOKS More tales from Austria's Nationalbibliothek. If I thought it might be like a public library, well, forget that. It's on the second floor. There's a closed wooden door. It says "No Visitors." You go through that. Then you have to be buzzed through a glass door. You're allowed five requests, and it takes two hours. The place closes at 3:45. I told the library guy I wasn't coming back, so I got seven book requests. One book didn't arrive. I sat down in the reading room. There were four other people in the National Library. FOUR! I was told I could copy from the books. Great! I gave it to a woman. She copied a book and a half, and then the copier broke down. There would be no more copying, because _THE_ COPIER broke down. So, this was not a world-record library session here. Plus, I took some time off to go to another library to do the Polka. The book that didn't arrive was ERSTES ISRAELITISCHES KOCHBUCH (1886) by Marie Kauders. Is it anywhere else? I requested books from the 1830s and 1840s. OED has both "sachertorte" and "linzertorte" from 1906, but "linzertorte" is in the 1830s, at least. "Schnitzel" and "strudel" are in the 1830s as well, so I'll have to see if the Library of Congress has any of the earlier books. The N.B. database I used was 1501-1929. "Kochbuch" turns up 212 entries. DIE BURGERLICHE KUCHE, ODER: NUEUSTRES OSTERREICHISCHES KOCHBUCH by Elizabeth Stockel Wien: F. P. Sollinger 1840 The "Inhalt" was thoroughly copied. Krebstrudel...167 Mandelstrudel...167 Topfenstrudel...168 Mohnstrudel...170 Tyrolerstrudel von Butterteig...170 Semmelschmarn...172 Griesschmarn...172 Brioche zu backen..212 Mandeltorte...266 Linzertorte...268 Karmelitertorte...272 Pomeranzentorte...276 Kaisertorte...277 Zwieback...301 Aepfelstrudel...407 DIE WAHRE KOCHKUNST, ODER: NEUSTES GEPRUSTES UNDE WILLSTUNDIGES PESTHER KOCHBUCH by Joseph Eggenberger Pesth 1835 Kaiser-Puding...196 Spanisches Brod...200 STRUDELN. Apfelstrudel...237 Chocoladestrudel...238 Tyrolerstrudel...244 Kaiberne Schnitzeln...313 Apfeltorte...335 Kaisertorte...353 Linzertorte...354 Mandel-Bogen...372 (Mark Mandel is all over these cookbooks--ed.) Aneis-Kucheln...383 Mandel-Brod...394 Neapolitaner Kipfeln...399 Spanische Bretzeln...402 (Spanish pretzels?--ed.) Zwieback, franzosischer...407 Tutti Frutti, Gefrornes...449 DIE WIENER-KOCHEN WIE SIE SENA SOLL Thersia Ballauf, verebeligten Muck Wien: Franz Zimmer 1834 "Biegel, lammernes, auf hollandische Art" is on page 394. Pg. 55: Chocolate-Strudel. Pg. 68: Krebsschmarn. Pg. 70: Mandelstrudel. Pg. 248: Kohlrabi, gefullter. Pg. 340: Judenbratel. Pg. 355: Kaiserschnitzeln. Pg. 366: Schnitzeln. Pg. 367: Speis. Pg. 548: Kaiser-Torte. Pg. 550: Linzer-Torte. Pg. 576: Bretzeln von Mandeln. Pg. 577: Brtezeln von Zucker. Pg. 587: Mandel-Brot. NUESTES UNIVERSAL, ODER: GROSSES WIENER-KOCHBUCH by Anna Dorn Wien: Franz Zendler 1834 (There are earlier editions of Anna Dorn's cookbook--ed.) Pg. 139: Sago-Pudding. Pg. 148: Krebsstrudel. Pg. 149: Strudel, mit Aepfel gefullt. Pg. 159: Judenbraten. Pg. 230: Kalberne Schnitzel. Pg. 289: Linzer-Torte. Pg. 306: Pfannkuchen. Pg. 344: Bavaroise. Pg. 446: Bogel. (Probably not a bagel--ed.) ALLGEMEIN BEWAHRTES WIENER KOCHBUCH by F. G. Zenfer Wien: Carl Gerolb 1844 Pg. 200: Lammernes Biegel. (Listed under "Uchter Ubscnitt. Bon den Braten."--ed.) Pg. 234: Aepfelstrudel. Pg. 280: Linzer Torte. Pg. 297: Italienischer Salat. Pg. 357: Kaiserbrot. Pg. 365: Mandelbrot. Pg. 386: Kleines Zwieback-Brot. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 15 19:57:59 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:57:59 -0700 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog In-Reply-To: <6CB2EF90.21693D71.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The book that didn't arrive was ERSTES ISRAELITISCHES KOCHBUCH (1886) >by Marie Kauders. Is it anywhere else? According to OCLC, there is a copy at the New York Academy of Medicine Library. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 21:01:42 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:01:42 -0700 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog In-Reply-To: <6CB2EF90.21693D71.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Sounds like the city hasn't changed much since my student days! (The country where there are double doors to every building, and invariably only ONE door opens only ONE way--right?) (Forty years later, 6,000 miles away, and the place still drives me crazy. Wien, Wien, nur du allein...) Sorry. --On Monday, July 15, 2002 3:44 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > There's a closed wooden door. It says "No Visitors." You go through > that. Then you have to be buzzed through a glass door. You're allowed > five requests, and it takes two hours. The place closes at 3:45. ... > I was told I could copy > from the books. Great! I gave it to a woman. She copied a book and > a half, and then the copier broke down. There would be no more > copying, because _THE_ COPIER broke down. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 21:38:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:38:22 -0400 Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: "SECULAR" BEAR MARKET I'm losing my religion! From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 15 July 2002, pg. M1, col. 6: _U.S. Bear Market_ _Could Last Years,_ _Some Predict_ (...) If so, stocks could be in the midst of a longer period of sluggishness--what some analysts call a "secular" bear market--schacterized by brief and frustrating rallies, after which stock gains are wiped out by repeated pullbacks. --------------------------------------------------------------- OFF TOPIC: "MASTERCARD MOMENTS" Flying over here, I sat in a row of four seats. The other three seats were taken by a woman with two young children. The flight attendant come over and asked about my son. I told her otherwise. And then, later, she beamed about my son again. So I looked over at my wife... At the Schonbrunn Palace, a woman asked for a headset in French. Then I was given a headset, also in French. So I'm thinking: which wife do I like better? Bruce Gould is a guy a new in law school. He's associated with Gould legal publications, and he does fundraising for the school. He didn't greet me and didn't look at me much the first three days of the Berlin conference. Then, on the last day, we went to the Sachenhausen concentration camp. "Barry, Barry, Barry," he said. "Did you ever give to the college?" "Yes." "Ever think of an endowment?" "I don't make much money," I said. And then I'm thinking: WE'RE AT A CONCENTRATION CAMP! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 21:43:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:43:53 -0400 Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: ...a guy I knew in law school. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 22:44:52 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:44:52 EDT Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: In a message dated 07/15/2002 5:42:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "SECULAR" BEAR MARKET > > I'm losing my religion! > From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 15 July 2002, pg. M1, col. 6: > > _U.S. Bear Market_ > _Could Last Years,_ > _Some Predict_ > (...) > If so, stocks could be in the midst of a longer period of sluggishness-- > what some analysts call a "secular" bear market--schacterized by brief and > frustrating rallies, after which stock gains are wiped out by repeated > pullbacks. "Secular" meaning "Of a fluctuation or trend: Occurring or persisting over an unlimited period, not periodic or short-term" (OED2, def 8) is a term of long standing in economics and statistics---the OED's first citation of this sense is 1895. It comes from the same Latin word as "secular" meaning "wordly, not sacred" but the latter meaning is the one that diverged, since the Latin word "saeculum" meant "generation" (compare modern French "siecle"="century"). The antonym is "periodic" or "short-term" (thank you, OED). The quotation uses the word correctly. It predicts a bear market that will continue over a long time but that will not necessarily be continuous---there may be "brief...rallies" but the overall trend will be bearish. If you had studied engineering instead of law, you'd know things like this. > Flying over here, I sat in a row of four seats. The other three seats were taken by > a woman with two young children. The flight attendant come over and asked about > my son. I told her otherwise. And then, later, she beamed about my son again. If you had been acting lovey-dovey towards the woman, the flight attendant would have concluded, correctly, that the two of you were NOT married, despite the presence of the children. It was the fact that you were apparently taken her for granted that clued the attendant (in this case incorrectly) that you were married. It happens all the time. In fact, not even OT, since it is a form of non-verbal communication. What you should have done was to put your arm around the boy and say in a proud tone, "He looks just like the milkman." The flight attendant would have left you alone for the rest of the trip. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 23:27:40 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:27:40 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: Has anybody else noticed this latest journalese excrescence? There's obviously a style book somewhere that urges journalists to avoid the use of the conjunction "that". I.e., thou shalt write: "He said he had been at home sleeping at the time of the crime," not: "He said THAT he had been at home...." This has somehow gotten translated into an absolute prohibition against EVER using "that" as a conjunction. I keep hearing the results on NPR, whose correspondents sound like they're using an infinitive construction but pereversely leaving out the "to." Every time, it pulls me up short, then I try the alternate "that" construction, with optional deletion of the "that" and think, grudgingly, "all right--I guess it's at least marginally grammatical." I keep meaning to remember the example verbatim and ask this list about it, but by the time I arrive at work, sure enough I've forgotten it. This morning I heard a particularly bizarre example, and I REMEMBERED IT! In a report on John Walker Lind's surprise guilty plea, the correspondent (or was it Bob Edwards--he's guilty of all of these style-book oddities) said that Lind's lawyers had planned to "ask the judge disallow" statements Lind had made under interrogation by U.S. agents in Afghanistan. Now I submit that this actually crosses the line. "...ask the judge TO disallow" would be fine, and so would "ask THAT the judge disallow," but to me, *"ask the judge disallow" is just plain not a grammatical AE sentence. What's wrong with "ask the judge TO disallow," for God's sake? Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge disallow" something? No more rants today--I promise. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 00:32:08 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:32:08 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: The following communication from a real flesh-and-blood Neapolitan, in response to my query to the listserv of the Italian-American Historical Association, may shed further light on the meaning of "apizza:" From: alessandro buffa First of all let me say hello to all members of the list since I just subscribed to it. I am from Naples but I'm moving to New York to do graduate studies next month. I can confirm that in Neapolitan dialect "la pizza" is written "a pizza" and pronounced "/a pizz/". So, I agree with Steve Boatti about the origin of the word "apizza" in New Haven, CT. Best regards, Alessandro Buffa Subject: Fwd: "Apizza":Boatti > From: Ittaob at aol.com > > Many of you may know that in New Haven, CT, the local word for "pizza" seems > to be "apizza," as shown in the name of many pizzerias in that city and > environs. It is usually pronounced "a-beets." On the listserv of the American > Dialect Society, there is an ongoing debate about the origin of the word > "apizza." > > Do any subscribers to this list have any information about this? My own view > is that it is simply Neapolitan for "la pizza," from the use of "a" for "la" > ("the"). Is this likely? Others have speculated that the "a" is from the > Latin "ad", "to". (In Italian, "a" also means "to.") Another thought was that > "la pizza" or "una pizza" became "l'apizza" or un' apizza", much as in > English "an ewt" became "a newt." > > Steve Boatti > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 16 02:43:52 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:43:52 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <619730.3235739260@[10.218.203.234]> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > disallow" something? > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading whatever is in the copy? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Jul 16 03:05:50 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:05:50 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Alice: > How are you on hoarse horses? > > Alice > Can't hear the difference, other than in context. But I've never come across a hoarse horse. Anne G From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Tue Jul 16 06:34:03 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:34:03 -0400 Subject: Cambridge Grammar book review Message-ID: Review of the new Cambridge Grammar of the English Language is at: http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html Notable quote: "We should not expect too much from linguists; they are witnesses not judges." Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 12:54:34 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:54:34 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/02 11:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET writes: > I've never come across a hoarse horse. Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 16 13:14:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:14:34 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: <87.1e4182aa.2a64c388@aol.com> Message-ID: >I can confirm that in Neapolitan dialect "la pizza" is written "a pizza" >and pronounced "/a pizz/". So, I agree with Steve Boatti about the origin >of the word "apizza" in New Haven, CT. OK, so what is the sense of "apizza" in this item? http://www.repubblica.it/forum/votoestero/x990415195002.html <> Is "un apizza" here to be equated to "un[a] la pizza"? Seems odd to me. Is it just a typographical error? Then what about this one? http://www.luccaonline.it/clienti/lapizza/ Is this "L'Apizza" equivalent to "La La Pizza" (even though it's not in Los Angeles)? Here is "l'apizza capricciosa". http://www.editricezona.it/contorni.html (BTW these aren't from Connecticut.) I'm still mystified. -- Doug Wilson From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 16 13:21:04 2002 From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:21:04 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: > >Now I submit that this actually crosses the line. "...ask the judge TO >disallow" would be fine, and so would "ask THAT the judge disallow," but t I admit that it's odd. But it's also spoken. My sense of Bob Edward's style has always been that while he works from written text or notes he tends to freelance what is written so that it sounds more natural when spoken. Unfortunately, he sometimes talks himself into a corner in the process. On the other hand, I've heard NPR commentators read themselves right into a different corner, victims of the copywriters. Most instances are pretty funny because the sentence frequently doesn't make any sense at all and the commentator is left with the problem of stumbling back through to correct the phrase or just letting it go. Sometimes I'll hear an error on the first live broadcast and notice that it's been corrected in the subsequent rollovers. Sometimes, the editors just let it go. Frankly, I find the showmanship and daring of live radio broadcasts worth the occasional flub. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 13:26:51 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:26:51 EDT Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/02 10:44:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > > disallow" something? > > > > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are > fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. > > Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the > Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading > whatever is in the copy? I trust that "I would tend use..." above is a typing mistake and not your normal usage of English? Microsoft Word grammar checker might be useful for illiterates, but it generates so many false negatives that I turn it off or ignore it. E.g. every time I use passive voice the grammar checker complains. I just tried a few sentences. The checker passes 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. 2. Ask the judge disallow something. 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. and correctly objects to 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. That is, the checker finds nothing wrong with 2. above, although I do. One reason for the NPR announcer to have used "ask the judge disallow" is that the phrase is in the subjunctive, which is why we have "[singular] judge disallow" rather than '"judge disallows" of the indicative. Despite purists like me, a lot of educated people ignore the subjunctive except for certain stereotyped expressions that are used without thinking, such as "move that the meeting be adjourned." (Back in the 8th grade, I stumped the entire class by posing that expression. Not even the teacher realized it was in the subjunctive.) So, the announcer, who probably would not recognize a subjunctive construction if one such "was" to slap him in the face, is suddenly confronted with a piece of phrasing in which part of his speech-constructing apparatus is saying "no 's' on the verb" and another part is saying "but third person singular needs an 's'". He was doing pretty good to have finished the sentence meaningfully, albeit ungrammatically. As somebody long ago commented on this list, NPR still hasn't adjusted to having G. W. Bush in the White House, so it's too much to expect to have them make peace with the subjunctive, which is somewhat more elusive than bin Laden. - Jim Landau My grammar's fine, but my grandpa's not feeling so good. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 14:19:06 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:19:06 EDT Subject: NPRSpeak: ASK (TO) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/2002 9:27:33 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > > disallow" something? > > > > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are > fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. > > Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the > Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading > whatever is in the copy? I trust that "I would tend use..." above is a typing mistake and not your normal usage of English? Microsoft Word grammar checker might be useful for illiterates, but it generates so many false negatives that I turn it off or ignore it. E.g. every time I use passive voice the grammar checker complains. I just tried a few sentences. The checker passes 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. 2. Ask the judge disallow something. 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. and correctly objects to 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. That is, the checker finds nothing wrong with 2. above, although I do. One reason for the NPR announcer to have used "ask the judge disallow" is that the phrase is in the subjunctive, which is why we have "[singular] judge disallow" rather than '"judge disallows" of the indicative. Despite purists like me, a lot of educated people ignore the subjunctive except for certain stereotyped expressions that are used without thinking, such as "move that the meeting be adjourned." (Back in the 8th grade, I stumped the entire class by posing that expression. Not even the teacher realized it was in the subjunctive.) >> The presence or absence of "to" in such environments is to some extent geographically and socially determined. Note that there are verbs such as MAKE that (it seems to me) never allow "to" in any dialect (*"Make him to call me"), verbs such as HELP that are totally variable for most people ("Help your little brother to get dressed"), and verbs such as HAVE that allow "to" in the South but not elsewhere ("Shall I have him to call you?" "They almost had their car to break down coming home last night"). This use of "to" with HAVE is quite common in the South, and not at all a conscious marker for Southerners (so one can often recognize a Southerner by this feature even when he or she has made stenuous efforts to eradicate other Southern features). I wrote a little article on this some years ago in AMERICAN SPEECH. I'm not sure if what we have here is really a subjunctive or just an optional deletion of the infinitive marker. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 14:26:24 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:26:24 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Given that there are only these 3 references to "apizza" in Italian websites (based on a search in the Italian search engine Virgilio), it would seem "apizza" is an extremely rare variant of "pizza" nowadays, at least in Italy. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 15:34:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:34:05 -0400 Subject: Vienna Breakfast; Irish Coffee; BiefBrezel; Nonevent Message-ID: Greetings from Frankfurt. My plane was 45 minutes late. That's the second Lufthansa delay so far. VIENNA BREAKFAST--A bit less than even the Continetnal Breakfast. The Vienna airport has: VIENNESE BREAKFAST--coffee or different falvours of tea, a roll on butter and marmelade 3.50 (A roll on butter? What about butter on a roll? Just how bigt is that slab of butter and how small the roll?...The continental breakfast adds ham&cheese and orange juice--ed.) IRISH COFFEE--The same Vienna airport place has: CAFE CUBA MIT AMARETTO 4.90 CAFE LATINO MIT TIA MARIA 4.90 IRISH COFFEE grosser Mocca mit Whisky 5.50 ("Irish Coffee" again!--ed.) BIERBREZEL--The airport offers this for 1.90. For those people who are too lazy to have Beer & Pretzels, and need both in one. Can kids eat this? NONEVENT--Seen in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, in a page one story about the euro getting stronger than the dollar. It was called, in quotes, a "nonevent." I Googled, and there's 3,720 "nonevent" and 28,200 "non-event." I prefer the latter. I saw the word quickly as "none vent." Is there a word for compounds that break more than one way? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 16 15:50:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:50:03 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <6D1920E2.30D3E95B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > >NONEVENT--Seen in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, in a page one >story about the euro getting stronger than the dollar. It was >called, in quotes, a "nonevent." I Googled, and there's 3,720 >"nonevent" and 28,200 "non-event." I prefer the latter. I saw the >word quickly as "none vent." Is there a word for compounds that >break more than one way? Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 15:56:45 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:56:45 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:50:03AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > >Is there a word for compounds that > >break more than one way? > > Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: > the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess > these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old > friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. Jesse Sheidlower From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Jul 16 16:05:38 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:05:38 -0500 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <20020716155645.GA26976@panix.com> Message-ID: In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When intentional, they're often called "charades." A couple of examples: God in three persons is not bound by his own pronoun-cements. "Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com >On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:50:03AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> >Is there a word for compounds that >> >break more than one way? >> >> Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: >> the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess >> these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old >> friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). > >In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a >failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads >as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no >English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. > >Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 16:11:33 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:05:38AM -0500, Erin McKean wrote: > In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When > intentional, they're often called "charades." > > A couple of examples: > > God in three persons is not bound by his own pronoun-cements. > > "Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. "Cow-orker" has long (1989 at least) been in use on Usenet; it's very common. Jesse Sheidlower From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 16:50:30 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:50:30 EDT Subject: Nonevent Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/02 12:06:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM writes: > In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When > intentional, they're often called "charades." "I scream for ice cream!" The classic example is the warning "to ASSUME something is to make an ASS out of U and ME". There are puns that depend on such misdivisions. My favorite: the people at ASCAP who keep logs of what copyrighted songs are played on radio and TV have to study algebra so that they know how to log a rhythm. Shakespeare's Irish plays: Corrie O'Lanus and O'Thello. One of the Order of the Turtle gags runs "It begins with the letter 'F'. It ends with the letters 'UCK'. It's quite common; you can see it anytime you want if you just bother to look." The correct answer is "Fire truck". Speaking of charades, a risque cartoon (I think it was in one of Kermit Schafer's "Bloopers" collections) showed a woman about to enter a charade contest and finding the word she was to act out was "titwillow". If Tennessee What Arkansas Then what did Delaware? The following limerick (I'm quoting from fallible memory) was published by a notoriously straight-laced editor who apparently failed to see the off-color misdivision in the last line: There was a young man from the Clyde Who fell through an outhouse and died His younger brother Then fell through another And now they're interred side by side. - Jim Landau From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 16 16:54:23 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:54:23 -0500 Subject: Penny dishes Message-ID: > > I wonder if 7-11 or some other nationwide chain decided that having penny > buckets, as well as being a for-real convenience to its customers, would also > add a nice homey touch to their check-out counters. This guess, if correct, > would explain why the practice, previously unknown, blossomed so widely so > quickly. > > The cafeteria where I work (which I imagine sells 1,000 lunches per day) has > three cashiers and each one has a penny bucket, a policy which, if I remember > correctly, began when new management took over a couple of years ago and make > a big fuss about how friendly their employees were. > > In a convenience store the cashiers do not log in---there are long gaps > sometimes between customers, and whichever employee is nearest the checkout > counter when a customer is ready becomes the cashier. Also in a large > multi-checkout-line store, if a cashier runs low on pennies, s/he simply > "buys" a roll from the manager. In a 7-11 or similar store, it is not > uncommon for the register to run low on x denomination of coins, and there is > no central cash source to buy rolls of coins from. If the register runs out > of pennies, the penny bucket comes in handy (or else the cashier simply > forgives the pennies beyond 5 or 10 cents). > I cannot speak to all convenience stores, gas station, and the like. BUT, in the gas stations and convenience stores I worked in, ONE person was responsible for a cash drawer and the amount it reconciled to, no matter how many people were ringing up customers. If you had to use "someone else's" register, then you had to enter your cashier code for each purchase. At the bookstore I used to (assistant) manage, it was much the same -- only you had to put in your employee ID number every time you used the register at all. It was usually expected to be off by a few pennies either way, pretty much every shift (especially at the gas stations, where people tend to throw five or ten dollars, say a pump number, and leave -- leaving you short a few pennies or with a few extra in change). We always had a penny dish on the counter, but never really called attention to it. Some cashiers used them a lot, others just let customers noticed it. You never "fill" the penny dish from the register, because that almost never happens to just work out in the end. Most shifts when I controlled my own register the whole time (like you're supposed to), my register worked out to within a few cents either way (usually over, because of people not taking their change). One manager in particular (at an SA) was shocked that my drawer always balanced so well, because most people were off between 50 cents and a dollar over six hours or so. Mine was always within ten cents. Anyway, the dishes are a convenience for customers, and I always put extra pennies in one that's low at all, if I get a few back in change. I never take more than two from the dish (and I think that's how most people work it), but have been know to put in three or four at times if they are weighing down my pockets! And we always called them "penny dishes", by the way, whether in Saint Paul (where I grew up), or in SE Michigan (where I just moved from after graduate school). As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the 'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say "hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota pretty easily. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 17:09:11 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:09:11 -0700 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <27.2a7aa604.2a65a8d6@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:50 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > If Tennessee > What Arkansas > Then what did Delaware? Perry Como recorded a version of a song which I'm sure was older, because I remember my Dad singing a version to a different tune long before the Como recording came out. The Como version (or as much of it as I remember): What did Delaware, boy, What did Delaware? What did Delaware, boy, What did Delaware? She wore a brand New Jersey, She wore a brand New Jersey, She wore a brand New Jersey, That's what she did wear. How did Wisconsin, boy? Stole a New-brass-key. Too bad that Arkansas, boy, And so did Tennessee. It made poor Flora die, boy, It made poor Flora die, you see, She died in Missouri, yes, She died in Missouri. Why did Cala phone ya, Why did Cala phone? Why did Cala phone ya, Was she all alone? She phoned to say Hawa-ya, She phoned to say Hawa-ya, She phoned to say Hawa-ya, That's why she did phone. Where has Ora gone, boy, Where has Ora gone? If you want, Alaska, Alaska where she's gone. She went to pay her Texaz, She went to pay her Texaz, She went to pay her Texaz, That's where she is gone. My Dad's version included: "What did Ioway? "She weighed a Washington." And there are probably others. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 16 17:17:49 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:17:49 -0400 Subject: Nonevent Message-ID: "James A. Landau" wrote: > > There are puns that depend on such misdivisions. My favorite: the people at > ASCAP who keep logs of what copyrighted songs are played on radio and TV have > to study algebra so that they know how to log a rhythm. During the 2000 Presidential campaign, when the erstwhile Democratic candidate spoke at my campus, someone in the computer science department hung a sign out their window saying something like "Al Gorithm 2000".... (the Supreme Court apparently had a different heuristic in mind....) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 16 17:47:38 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:47:38 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: In my 2001 WOTY submissions, I suggested that a lot of new jargon and slang would likely be emerging in '02 around Wi-Fi networking technology and the growing subculture that's embracing it. This is certainly proving to be the case. The "war" prefix is becoming the new "e" (or "cyber" or "i") in these circles, with "wardriving," "warchalking," "warplugging" and others. "War" in this case comes from "wardialing," the hacker practice of getting a computer to dial a list of phone numbers in search of modem tones (for possible hacker entry). Wardialing, in turn, gets its name from the 1993 film "Wargames," which introduced the idea to legions of would be hacker teens. WARDRIVING is the practice of cruising around in a car with a Wi-Fi wireless-enabled computer running a "sniffer" program in an effort to discover accessible wireless access points (which one can then use to get on the Internet for free). WARCHALKING has got to be one of the most memetically viral terms/concepts ever to spread across the Internet (and into offline media). The idea was proposed by a British computer geek to use a hobo-type symbolic language to mark open Wi-Fi access points. He started a webblog to discuss the idea and proposed an initial set of symbols. The free wireless network community grabbed hold of the idea and hasn't let go. Warchalk marks are now showing up on buildings and sidewalks in cities, on college campuses, even in suburban neighborhoods. Like "All your base are belong to us," it's showing up everywhere, online, in cartoons, on T-shirts, on the evening news, etc. It's even given rise to spoofs: chalkchalking, whorechalking, pubchalking and spin-offs: blogchalking. It's definitely the geek meme du jour. Warchalking/driving has given rise to the term WI-BOS (or WiBos) for "Wireless Hobos"), those who engage in the practice of "chalking" and hunting down chalked access points. On the initial website (www.warchalking.org), there's even a little wallet card you can print out with the symbols on it and a place to mark down your local access nodes. The fellow who dreamt up the concept has coined the term MEMENUKED to label what has happened to him in the wake of the warchalk idea. He's been inundated with email, media requests, and the like. Memenuked is what happens to you when you unleash an idea that is so memetically viral that the response becomes overwhelming. Don't know if the term will catch on or not, but it's now riding the "carrier wave" of the warchalking phenom. WARPLUGGING was coined by a wardriving/chalking enthusiast to describe the act of using the 32-character network identifier (called an SSID) on a wireless network to advertise that network (or "plug" something else) to those who stumble upon it. Examples: "Gentle Dental Wireless," "Mars network, open for all," "please_bring_pizza." From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 16 17:51:01 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:51:01 -0400 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <459089.3235802951@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Peter McGraw's post reminded me of an amusing French transliteration of my home state's name as "mes sales chaussettes" (or "ma/ta/sa chaussette," if you prefer the inclusive approach). Thankfully, this was not offered as an etymological hypothesis. Joanne Despres From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 17:53:55 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:53:55 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D345C3A.3030600@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > tones (for possible hacker entry). Wardialing, in turn, gets its name > from the 1993 film "Wargames," which introduced the idea to legions of > would be hacker teens. 1983, that would be. I recently saw Wargames again, after about 18 years, and I was amazed how,even now the world situation has changed with the fall of the Soviet Union, my heart was still pounding, not so much from the movie, but from my recollection of the early 80s and the certainity that I then felt that the world was going to explode and wondering where I'd be when it happened (a theme explored in Coupland's "Life After God"). From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 16 17:56:10 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:56:10 -0500 Subject: NPR Speak and pronouns Message-ID: I had noticed this deletion of that/to many times before. I assumed it only bothered me (I have no one in my immediate circles who actually will discuss such things with me), and no one else. My assumption is that it somehow "sounds more formal", or to the speaker's mind, more "BBC-like" that way (though I do not know how a typical BBC broadcaster would say it). Since it works in some cases, and seems to sound more formal ("The professor agreed [implied COMMA here] the application of the proper phrasing was key in delineation of the underlying meaning"), I think people now tend to overuse it. Especially hyper-corrective copywriters for "respected broadcasters". Now, what bugs me much much more is the misuse of the subject-pronoun for the object-pronoun in "as for my husband and I, we do not allow our children to bike without helmets". That drives me crazy, and I swear I had never heard it (I grew up in Minnesota) until I was in college. Now, I hear it all the time, see it in popular print (in newspaper articles, Newsweek, everywhere!), and even come across it in advertising, educational seminar pamphlets, or sermons from highly educated clergy (constantly!). I always tell anyone who will put up with me pointing it out to say it with just one person or one pronoun, and see which sounds better. You wouldn't say "as for I", or "as for we", would you? So, don't do it when combining pronouns or names either! I am not generally a prescriptivist person, but I have to admit this one really bugs me. Mainly because I think it is hypercorrection from teachers screaming at us not to say "my brother and me" in the subject position, and no one knows the difference between subject and object, so they use it all the time. It's like the rule now is: When combining a noun and the first-person pronoun, always use "I", and never "me". So, I got that off my chest, and feel much better now. Glad I finally found this listserv. It is a great way to get my language-related "fixes" without bugging everyone in my real life. Glad to see some people I know on here too (though I don't know if they'll recognize me anymore...). millie-webb at charter.net From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 16 18:37:27 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:37:27 -0400 Subject: NPR Speak and pronouns In-Reply-To: <00b201c22cf2$1207bd00$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: At 12:56 PM -0500 7/16/02, Millie Webb wrote: >I had noticed this deletion of that/to many times before. I assumed it only >bothered me (I have no one in my immediate circles who actually will discuss >such things with me), and no one else. > >My assumption is that it somehow "sounds more formal", or to the speaker's >mind, more "BBC-like" that way (though I do not know how a typical BBC >broadcaster would say it). Since it works in some cases, and seems to sound >more formal ("The professor agreed [implied COMMA here] the application of >the proper phrasing was key in delineation of the underlying meaning"), I >think people now tend to overuse it. Especially hyper-corrective >copywriters for "respected broadcasters". > >Now, what bugs me much much more is the misuse of the subject-pronoun for >the object-pronoun in "as for my husband and I, we do not allow our children >to bike without helmets". That drives me crazy, and I swear I had never >heard it (I grew up in Minnesota) until I was in college. Now, I hear it >all the time, see it in popular print (in newspaper articles, Newsweek, >everywhere!), and even come across it in advertising, educational seminar >pamphlets, or sermons from highly educated clergy (constantly!). > >I always tell anyone who will put up with me pointing it out to say it with >just one person or one pronoun, and see which sounds better. You wouldn't >say "as for I", or "as for we", would you? So, don't do it when combining >pronouns or names either! I am not generally a prescriptivist person, but I >have to admit this one really bugs me. The only problem with this logic is the tacit assumption that conjoined noun phrases (X and Y) are syntactically identical to simple noun phrases (X) when it comes to case assignment. There's a lot of evidence that this is not the case, not only from "as for..." and "between you and I" (vs. *between we, which I'd wager is never used), but from a wide range of other prepositional and non-prepositional constructions. The same point can be raised about the difference between "Me and him can do it" vs. "Me can do it", "Him can do it", as in the example you bring up below. Again, the above "logic" would predict these are equally likely--and there's no hypercorrection here, simply (once again) different rules for case assignment in conjoined vs. simple NPs. By coincidence, this issue is one that's addressed in the Guardian review of the Huddleston-Pullum Cambridge Grammar that was mentioned earlier today here, at http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html >Mainly because I think it is >hypercorrection from teachers screaming at us not to say "my brother and me" >in the subject position, and no one knows the difference between subject and >object, so they use it all the time. It's like the rule now is: When >combining a noun and the first-person pronoun, always use "I", and never >"me". Well, the problem (if it is a problem) is that that's not the one speakers/writers actually follow either, at least not consistently in practice. Many will distinguish "He saw John and me" from "He gave it to John and I", and the rules are likely to be variable rather than absolute in nature. It's always easy to stipulate what everyone "should" do, but it's sometimes more interesting to investigate what they actually do. I take it that's what Huddleston and Pullum sought to accomplish in their grammar. Larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 16 18:51:35 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:51:35 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: War-dialing is defined, relative to concerns with security, at the following site: http://www.robertgraham.com/pubs/hacking-dict.html#xWx The movie War Games is also mentioned. My favorite 'war' term, warbot (the software version), is not mentioned at the site. George Cole Shippensburg University From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Jul 16 19:36:39 2002 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:36:39 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: Script kiddies who aren't old enough to drive have to resort to "warwalking": "So, from wardialling, we have wardriving and warwalking, where wireless laptop-equipped crackers wander the city looking for open corporate networks." --The Guardian, July 4, 2002 Paul http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/warchalking.asp http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/wardialing.asp http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/wardriving.asp From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 20:00:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:00:29 -0400 Subject: King Freezies; Trendwear; Slow Food Message-ID: Ah great, I got to walk around Frankfurt to see the just-closed Jewish Museum and the just-closed Library. KING FREEZIES--Burger King offers these in Germany. In my day, we called them 7-11 Slurpees...Of the other chains, the Starbucks in Vienna made no menu modifications for Vienna. The Haagen Dazs also was the same store as in the States. Pizza Hut and McDonald's I already posted. TRENDWEAR, JEANSWEAR--Seen on a store here in Frankfurt. I don't know if I discussed "trendwear" before. SLOW FOOD--I just went to McFedries's site and I see that "Slow Food" was the word-of-the-day yesterday. I posted "slow food" a few months ago. Today's WOTD credits a subscriber, but "slow food" is credited to no one. From john at FENIKS.COM Tue Jul 16 20:29:21 2002 From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:29:21 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:05 AM 7/16/02 -0500, you wrote: >"Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. Jack and the Beans Talk? Cheers! John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications 795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104 V: 603 668 5601 F: 707 220 7490 Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter http://www.feniks.com/ mailto:john at feniks.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 16 20:57:14 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:57:14 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020716162844.022acda0@mail.feniks.com> Message-ID: Wee knights? A. Murie From john at FENIKS.COM Tue Jul 16 21:20:06 2002 From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:20:06 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:57 PM 7/16/02 -0400, you wrote: > Wee knights? >A. Murie Men swear... Cheers! John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications 795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104 V: 603 668 5601 F: 707 220 7490 Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter http://www.feniks.com/ mailto:john at feniks.com From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 21:26:15 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:26:15 -0700 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <459089.3235802951@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:09 AM -0700 "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > And there are probably others. I subsequently remembered another verse (or two verses?) from the Perry Como version which I feel compelled to add in the interest of Completeness (and probably nobody else): What did Missi-sip, boy, What did Missi-sip? (Repeat) She sipped a Minnesota, (Repeat 2x) That's what she did sip. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Jul 16 21:55:11 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:55:11 -0400 Subject: press inquiry Message-ID: Dear ADS Listserv, Apologies for intruding on the list. I'm a reporter and am working on a "one year later" column about the new words generated by the events of 9/11 and the ensuing "war on terrorism." I'd like to interview anyone who has spotted new (or "repurposed") words resulting from these events. I'm particularly interested in words that are getting used in the workplace, by professionals, business travellers, etc. For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. The column will appear (in slightly different forms) in the October issues of The American Lawyer and in Corporate Counsel. Thanks very much for any leads or suggestions. Catherine Aman Staff reporter Corporate Counsel & American Lawyer Magazine (212) 313-9205 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 16 23:27:28 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:27:28 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <20020716155645.GA26976@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: #In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a #failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads #as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no #English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. # I've seen that used. IIRC, it was in, hmm, feminist-based anti-psychiatric ranting. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 16 23:30:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:30:47 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D345C3A.3030600@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: #WARPLUGGING was coined by a wardriving/chalking enthusiast to #describe the act of using the 32-character network identifier (called an #SSID) on a wireless network to advertise that network (or "plug" #something else) to those who stumble upon it. Examples: "Gentle Dental #Wireless," "Mars network, open for all," "please_bring_pizza." Crossing threads here, despite the context I first divided that in this message as "warp+lugging". It must be my Star Trek youth... -- Mark M. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 23:32:24 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:32:24 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <68.2303b147.2a65791b@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:26 AM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > Microsoft Word grammar checker...passes > 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. > 2. Ask the judge disallow something. > 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. > > and correctly objects to > 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. I seem to recall hearing that #4 is acceptable in British English. If so, is #3 NOT acceptable, or are both o.k.? Anyone over there care to comment? Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU Tue Jul 16 23:52:09 2002 From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:52:09 +1000 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Message-ID: Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a reference at http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ ********************************************************** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 16 23:59:34 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:59:34 -0400 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Message-ID: A "pigskin" is an American football, while a "sheepskin" is a diploma, traditionally made from parchment (though modern diplomas generally are made of paper). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a reference at http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html Roly Sussex From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 17 00:48:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:48:46 -0400 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A "pigskin" is an American football, while a "sheepskin" is >a diploma, traditionally made from parchment (though modern diplomas >generally are made of paper). > >John Baker > Or then again a pigs' kin could be a wild boar and a sheep's kin a goat... >-----Original Message----- >From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU] >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:52 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic > > >Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" >("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? >Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a >reference at >http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html > >Roly Sussex From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Jul 17 01:01:32 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:21:04 -0500 Rick Kennerly > I admit that it's odd. But it's also spoken. My sense of Bob > Edward's style has always been that while he works from written text > or notes he tends to freelance Sometimes. What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. D From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 17 01:33:43 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:33:43 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <20020716.210933.-326037.10.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Duane Campbell writes: .......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. > >I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. > >D ~~~~~~~ Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being done. A. Murie From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 01:37:31 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:37:31 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: From: Suzanne Branciforte Ciao a tutti! As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De Salvo eds.). Saluti, Suzanne Branciforte ----- End forwarded message ----- Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 17 01:58:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:58:22 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: <8a.1b5ee7ca.2a66245b@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, now we're getting some conflicting information (the idea that Middletown doesn't call its pizzas "apizza" because it was settled by Sicilians, unlike the Neapolitans, or rather the provinicial Campanians, who settled New Haven and imported their "apizza" spelling and pronunciation, vs. the claim below that Sicilians would do it too.). But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find puzzling. larry >Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: > >From: Suzanne Branciforte > > >Ciao a tutti! > >As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also > >Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che > >bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The > >heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, > >broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. > > >I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna > >Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of > >Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De > >Salvo eds.). > > >Saluti, > >Suzanne Branciforte > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > >Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 02:23:10 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:23:10 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/02 9:57:12 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find puzzling. >> Obviously there was something unique about the Campanians who settled in New Haven. What it was, I haven't the foggiest. Steve Boatti From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 16 16:30:02 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:30:02 -0500 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 7/16/02 6:52 PM, Prof. R. Sussex at r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU wrote: > Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" > ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? > Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a > reference at > http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___A > wards/honors___awards.html > The explanation of "pigskin" in this scholarship is explained in the web page: "Pigskin Preschool," which was initiated in 1975 by the HDFS staff and students who volunteer their time to provide care for children whose parents attend MU football games. The fund began in connection with the babysitting program offered by the people in the Division of Human Environmental Sciences, specifically the Department of Child Development, but it is now just a term they use as a sort of in-joke. Footballs are ostensibly made from pigskin, or were at some time in the past. Here's an interesting application of "slam jam" and "pigskin" in teaching geography to kids who would rather be shooting baskets or throwing footballs. http://www.pigskingeography.com/ I didn't see any references to sheepskin in the University of Missouri list -- the university where I taught for a quarter of a century. We use the term "sheepskin" to refer to a diploma awarded at graduation from any level of education. Mine have all been on paper, but apparently one college has been acquiring actual sheep skin for theirs. See this debate: http://halogen.note.amherst.edu/~astudent/2000-2001/issue14/news/01.html And here's another interesting site that came when I googled for "sheepskin diploma." http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/magicmill/oddsandends.html We use 'hide' with cow and buffalo, but 'skin' with deer, sheep, goat. I suppose the thickness and suppleness of the tanned product plays a role in determining whether it's skin or hide. A rawhide whip is a likely cultural object, but never a rawskin whip. The term 'rawhide' never fails to conjure up images from horse operas, particularly the TV show by that name. DMLance From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 17 10:05:25 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 06:05:25 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <20020716.210933.-326037.10.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: |o| Sometimes. What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many |o| dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has |o| actually done the |o| two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his |o| questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. |o| |o| I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. |o| Dunno, Ophra does the same thing, I read. Sometimes she has 5 or 6 interviews going on at the same time. I'm sure most "name" interviewers do it, too. For NPR, the idea is that it provides continuity of voice in the program and the technique certainly makes for a better interview. For instance, several years back a coworker at our university was interviewed at some length by NPR about a cancer awareness event that she had organized, frankly I forget what the "twist" was that made the event unique & radio worthy. She was disappointed by per performance during what turned out to be a very long interview, about 45 minutes. The NPR reporter lead Louise all around the topic chatting about all kinds of things while dipping in and out of the main theme. And Louise didn't have much hope for the final result but was pleasantly surprised by the aired product. The 20-second Weekend Edition piece that finally aired with Scott Simon's voice asking the questions was coherent, up-beat, backtrack & stammer free, had a pleasantly loose style that sounded conversational, and portrayed Louise and her cause in a favorable light. The process is really no different than trusting a pen & ink reporter to treat you fairly after a long rambling interview, I suppose. I imagine that when one sees Howard Fineman with Someone You've Never Heard of as the byline in Newsweek, the same thing has happened. If you listen at the end of the show, the reporter who did the interview is identified and recognized for her work on the interview. rhk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 17 11:34:27 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:34:27 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob Edwards may seem dubbed to some of you, but since he is from exactly the same dialect area as me, I've just always assumed that he is a speaker of perfectly standard American English, and, of course, he sounds quite normal to me. dInIs > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D >~~~~~~~ >Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it >could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being >done. >A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 17 11:39:32 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:39:32 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But when is an article an article, and when has it lost that status (due to phonological processes and attrition of language skills among immigrant users)? When we got rid of the 'n' in "nuncle" and "nadder" in English, I'm fairly certain it was not the result of an enclave of pop grammarians deliberating on the "article" status of the noises involved. dInIs >Well, now we're getting some conflicting information (the idea that >Middletown doesn't call its pizzas "apizza" because it was settled by >Sicilians, unlike the Neapolitans, or rather the provinicial >Campanians, who settled New Haven and imported their "apizza" >spelling and pronunciation, vs. the claim below that Sicilians would >do it too.). But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, >is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the >name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde >World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La >Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French >you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not >the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find >puzzling. > >larry > >>Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: >> >>From: Suzanne Branciforte >> >> >>Ciao a tutti! >> >>As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also >> >>Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che >> >>bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The >> >>heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, >> >>broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. >> >> >>I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna >> >>Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of >> >>Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De >> >>Salvo eds.). >> >> >>Saluti, >> >>Suzanne Branciforte >> >> >> >>----- End forwarded message ----- >> >>Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Wed Jul 17 12:59:00 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:59:00 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has happened to me (the dubbing). At first it was disconcerting to hear but then it seemed quite funny. Especially after my aunt asked me what Bob Edwards was really like and I said "A disembodied voice." And I liked the producer too. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D >~~~~~~~ >Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it >could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being >done. >A. Murie From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 17 13:51:53 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:51:53 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over in silence.) The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light on journalistic practices. Joanne Despres From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 17 14:15:46 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:15:46 -0400 Subject: FW: NPRSpeak Message-ID: Joanne Despres said: >> I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over in silence.) The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light on journalistic practices. << The practices of some, but not all journalists. It seems to me totally inappropriate to "quote" someone that has not been directly been contacted by somebody involved with the publication, article, or (in the case of broadcast media) program. What should have been done, at least, is to ask your permission to use something you posted, and whether it would be OK to use your name in connection with it. Not that you "own" what is posted to a listserv, but it is simply discourteous if not unethical to do what Joanne describes. It's often nice to be mentioned in the press as an authority or source, but not at all right to not know it has happened. Frank Abate From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Jul 17 14:27:30 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:27:30 -0400 Subject: Articles Message-ID: The August 2002 issue of Scientific American has two language centered articles. The first, at page 26 discusses research in how the language we learn "warps everything we hear later". The second, at page 78, is entitled "Saving Languages". Bob From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 17:22:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:22:56 -0400 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine Message-ID: Ukraine girls really knock me out. --The Beatles, "Back in the U.S.S.R." Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow traveler complained that they all dress like whores. My tour guide is a 20-year old college student (mathematics). I asked about slang, and, as I sometimes get as a response, there is "no slang" in the Ukraine. For example, outside this hotel is the bear with the Olympic belt (a symbol of the 1980 Olympics). I asked if the bear had a name. "Bear," he said. There are no English-language cookbooks for sale here at the hotel, and there's a limited amount of English language reading material of any kind. For the record, I plugged in these words into the online OED, and there isn't much: UKRAINE 22 hits UKRAINIAN 31 hits From WHAT'S ON (www.whatson.com), 18 July 2002, pg. 36, col. 1: _Ukraine's "Village Fete"_ People in Kyiv, both expats and locals alike, are fond of saying that Ukraine is really one big village, where everyone knows each other and where you can expect to bump into acquaintances all over the place. If this is true, then surely the village fete of this "silo" nation is the Tavria Games, the outdoor summer festival which continues to attract huge numbers of young Ukrainians to a small town on the SOuth Ukrainian steppe. (Silo nation?--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 17 18:29:39 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine Message-ID: I was in Vilnius a couple weeks ago, and I heard Lithuanian women at the conference complaining that their local fashion choices seemed to be to dress like Soviet-era grandmothers or like whores. A Finnish university rector at the conference brought his 20-ish daughter along, and she agreed with other women at the conference that young women's fashions in Vilnius were pretty awful. I'd have to say the fashions did seem a little extreme. I wonder if this is a stage in the de-Sovietization of these nations. Herb Stahlke > Ukraine girls really knock me out. > --The Beatles, "Back in the U.S.S.R." > > Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow traveler complained that they all dress like whores From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 17 18:36:11 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:36:11 -0700 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine In-Reply-To: <30DAC206.56C56A78.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Presumably as in "grain storehouse." --On Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:22 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (Silo nation?--ed.) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 17 18:43:45 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:43:45 -0500 Subject: Yahoo creates medireview and reviewuate Message-ID: Interesting essay on how Yahoo's email screening creates new words like medireview and reviewuate. http://www.msnbc.com/news/781684.asp Herb Stahlke From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 17 19:06:32 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:06:32 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: I've heard that dubbed interviews are very common on music radio, especially with musicians and rock groups who are touring. The group's publicist sends a pre-recorded interview tape to the various radio stations across the country along with a list of the appropriate questions. The DJ then does the interview "on the air", asking the questions during long pauses left on the pre-recorded track - the effect being that the individual radio personalities seem to be conducting a live interview with said rock group. As for pen and ink journalists and the liberties they take ... I've been "doing journalism" for the last couple years and have often been struck by how easy it would be to cast the interview subject in a terrible light - or bathe him in an angelic glow, depending upon one's desire. Obviously, any good journalist will do his or her best to present the subject as honestly as possible during the editing process. But there have been a couple occasions where I've been shocked to hear my editor make a remark like "boy, he seems like a jerk" after reading an interview feature I've written - having been there and having heard the person's tone and taken in their demeanor, it never occurred to me that in stark black and white they might seem very different. Editing interviews is a tricky little process. Brooke Pierce www.theatermania.com > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 17 20:22:08 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:22:08 -0400 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: At 11:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, Millie Webb wrote: >As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the >way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, >hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the >'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- >even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say >"hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the >people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. >Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and >take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to >or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed >and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota >pretty easily. As a Minnesotan who just got back from a few days with the family, I can attest (with earlier writers) that the /a~O/ distinction is just about gone in younger Minnesotans. One 40-something niece still has it, but her sister doesn't, and none of their kids have the split. Mpls/St. Paul is most advanced in the merger; after 50 years in the Cities even my 70-year-old brother has it before /t/ (predictably triggering merger first, if I recall J.C. Wells' order correctly), while my sister and I don't. I have no distinction between 'palm tree' and 'pom' though--no /l/ or lengthening in the first; however, the 'palm of my hand' has a backer vowel--not quite to 'thought' but more like British 'lot' (to cite Wells' sets again). By "hahcky" I assume you're referring to the front vowel raising common in the Northern Cities Shift. But why is it "annoying"? BTW, I don't see the name of the city spelled "Saint" Paul very often. In St. Louis, the full spelling was reserved for Saint Louis University (as if commemorating the French king/saint, although I don't know if that was the original intent of the name in 1819; SLU's symbol is the fleur-de-lis, plus that crazy Billiken). Isn't this distinction generally kept in St. Paul too? From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 17 20:27:04 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:27:04 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <157.10e90f3f.2a65718a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 08:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/15/02 11:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET writes: > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British 'lot'). From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 17 08:47:41 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 03:47:41 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <3D353E39.25107.9EE1CC9@localhost> Message-ID: on 7/17/02 8:51 AM, Joanne M. Despres at jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM wrote: > I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's > statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and > re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I > was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in > William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted > from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, > it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only > that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, > to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying > to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over > in silence.) > > The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind > being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light > on journalistic practices. > > Joanne Despres > Try residing in a town that is overrun with journalism students who put out a daily local paper. If the student doesn't get it wrong, the graduate student copy editor does. DML From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 21:02:00 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:02:00 EDT Subject: Greenspan Coins a New Phrase [headline] Message-ID: >From the July 17 New York Times on the Web . . . By FLOYD NORRIS [I] nfectious greed." The man who gave us "irrational exuberance" is back, with a phrase that sums up the late 1990's even better than that one did. "An infectious greed seemed to grip much of our business community," the Federal Reserve chairman, Alan Greenspan, told the Senate Banking Committee yesterday. The way he sees it, the incentives created by poorly designed stock options "overcame the good judgment of too many corporate managers." . . . . - Allan Metcalf From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 21:27:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:27:34 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food Message-ID: OK SIGN--Seen three times so far, on billboards and ads. Obviously, it's not an insult to use it here in the Ukraine. SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. B-TO-B--From USA TODAY, 16 July 2001, pg. 11A, col. 3: THousands of travelers like Bopp normally slip through the cracks every day using a creative booking practice called "back-to-back" ticketing, also known as "b-to-b." (Any confusion with B2B?--ed.) UKRAINE CUISINE--From WHAT'S ON, 12-18 July 2002, pg. 19: KOZAK MAMAI (...) The restaurant offers traditional Ukrainian cuisine, and there is a touch of authenticity in those waiters sneaking around in "sharovary" (baggy Cossack trousers), albeit without "oseledtsi" (the instantly recognisable Cossack hairstyle). House specials change every week, so regulars are never bored. Still, the most popular dish remains borsch with "pampushky" (savoury buns). The favoured dessert remains ice-cream in a basket of baked dough, decorated with fruit, and the best loved drinks on the terrace are "kysil" and "uzvar" (traditional Ukrainian fruit drinks). From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 17 21:48:32 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:48:32 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this web page: http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Jul 17 22:12:26 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:12:26 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: Webster's Collegiate (9/e) doesn't include sprezzatura. It does, however, include the lovely word sprachgefuhl, which it defines as a "sensibility to conformity with (or divergence from) the established usage of a language (or) a feeling for which is linguistically effective or appropriate." It seems to me that you all possess a great deal of sprachgefuhl-many thanks for your thoughtful replies to my inquiry yesterday (re: new words and usages arising in the wake of Sept 11). Much appreciated! Catherine Aman Staff reporter Corporate Counsel & American Lawyer Magazine (212) 313-9205 > ---------- > From: Baker, John > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:48 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Sprezzatura > > The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied > carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I > found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. > The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this > web page: > > http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food > > SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: > While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon > a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if > he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I > looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I > went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. > You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High > Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful > performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to > describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society > on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. > > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Wed Jul 17 23:57:04 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:57:04 -0500 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: I cannot say I have NEVER noticed the hock/hawk thing sounding the same for some people, but I maintain that most of my family (I have seven siblings, ages 31 to 48, all married [some to non-Minnesotans], and four of them still living in the Cities, one in Rural MN), all of whom still distinguish the two sounds about ninety percent of the time ("misspeaks happen" obviously). Both of my parents use them both too, with my mom born and raised in St Paul, leaving for about ten years (Chicago and south-central Michigan), and returning for the next forty years. My dad has lived in the Cities for those last forty years. But he isn't a great example, I presume -- the "poor man" still says "Ay-talian" for "Italian" because his dad from South Carolina always said it that way. He was born and raised in Battle Creek, Michigan, btw. His language is all mixed up in many ways one would never expect from someone who hardly ever moved his whole life. "but Inyway"... . I find the Chicago lengthening and nasalization of the [a] in "hockey" annoying for a variety of personal reasons -- not the least if which is that my first roommate in Michigan spoke very very loudly, with a lot of nasalization, and did that with every vowel possible. She was very annoying most of the time. Thus, the association for me, I suppose. Yes, St Paul is usually written with just the St and not "Saint". But mostly (IMHO) because it is quicker, I think. I have never seen or heard anything about it being only acceptable one way or the other. I went to Macalester College in St Paul, and they almost always wrote out "Saint" in every return/contact address I ever saw when I was around there (though they may not anymore). The newspapers generally write "St." or "St", but again, I think it is because it is shorter. I usually write it out when typing, because too many spelling programs get tripped up on "St" with no period, which is how I am used to seeing it written in many cases locally (in the Cities). Laurence, thanks for comments on the subject/object pronoun thing. I knew I did not like my rule much for some reason, but I did not have the time right then to think of better phrasing. I do still think it is hypercorrection, by the way. Which would usually mean it is inconsistent, wouldn't it? Do you know John Lawler in Ann Arbor? Your posting style reminds me of his "so many years ago...". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:22 PM Subject: Re: hock/hawk (again) > At 11:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, Millie Webb wrote: > > >As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the > >way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, > >hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the > >'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- > >even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say > >"hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the > >people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. > >Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and > >take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to > >or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed > >and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota > >pretty easily. > > As a Minnesotan who just got back from a few days with the family, I can > attest (with earlier writers) that the /a~O/ distinction is just about gone > in younger Minnesotans. One 40-something niece still has it, but her > sister doesn't, and none of their kids have the split. Mpls/St. Paul is > most advanced in the merger; after 50 years in the Cities even my > 70-year-old brother has it before /t/ (predictably triggering merger first, > if I recall J.C. Wells' order correctly), while my sister and I don't. I > have no distinction between 'palm tree' and 'pom' though--no /l/ or > lengthening in the first; however, the 'palm of my hand' has a backer > vowel--not quite to 'thought' but more like British 'lot' (to cite Wells' > sets again). > > By "hahcky" I assume you're referring to the front vowel raising common in > the Northern Cities Shift. But why is it "annoying"? > > BTW, I don't see the name of the city spelled "Saint" Paul very often. In > St. Louis, the full spelling was reserved for Saint Louis University (as if > commemorating the French king/saint, although I don't know if that was the > original intent of the name in 1819; SLU's symbol is the fleur-de-lis, plus > that crazy Billiken). Isn't this distinction generally kept in St. Paul too? From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 02:03:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:03:51 EDT Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/2002 5:26:11 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. >> Not quite right. See below. In a message dated 7/17/2002 5:45:34 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this web page: http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html John Baker >> Yes indeed. I was familiar with this word because I read portions of an English translation of Castiglione's book, THE COURTIER, which was written in Italy (in Italian) in the "High Renaissance." I believe the book was very popular in England, where the idea of sprezzatura became a goal for all gentlemen to emulate. The idea was that a true gentleman not only did everything well, but he made every victory look effortless. The goal was not to be a "superficial manipulator" but a totally graceful person who was very aware of his image among others. In a way, sprezzatura was a kind of duty that the upper classes owed to the lower classes in order to promote social order. Indeed, the burden fell most heavily upon the prince. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 02:44:51 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:44:51 -0400 Subject: press inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Catherine Aman wrote: > For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. This is the second time in the past few days that I have seen "to wand" referred to as a neologism. It isn't -- I know I have heard it used for years to describe scanning a barcode with a barcode reader. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jul 18 03:59:15 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:59:15 -0700 Subject: press inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. > > This is the second time in the past few days that I have seen > "to wand" > referred to as a neologism. It isn't -- I know I have heard > it used for > years to describe scanning a barcode with a barcode reader. I assume that in the 9/11 context, "to wand" refers to metal detection devices at airport security checkpoints not barcode readers. It's not quite the same sense. Although, a Google groups search turns up several instances of "to wand" in the airport context dating back to at least 1992. So it's still not a post-9/11 neologism in any case. ("At one airport they wanted me to take off my belt and walk through the gizmo. I told 'em it would be easier for me to take off my pants. They decided to wand me down by hand!"; Subject: "Re: This is the stupidest ? but I had to ask it ...", posted to rec.arts.bodyart - 08 Feb 1992 by Nicholas J. Simicich.) There are lots of interesting posts on things that set of metal detectors on rec.arts.bodyart. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jul 18 04:13:12 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:13:12 -0400 Subject: Uptalking in Steinbeck Message-ID: This article which I believed was mentioned on this list in September ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,555379,00.html ) makes what I consider a credible effort (for a non-specialist journalist) to find the beginning of the rise of uptalking, or "high-rise terminals." The earliest citation in the article is 1965: "What's called 'high-rising intonation in statements', an increasingly common feature of Australian English, was first noticed as an aberration in an interview situation in 1965." Now, I'm sure there's better work out there on the subject and history of uptalk, but I think it's worth pointing out that in "The Winter of Our Discontent," John Steinbeck describes what is unmistakably uptalk in the first chapter, page seven of my Penguin version. The book was first published in 1961. "Joey looked like a horse and he smiled like a horse, raising a long upper lip to show big square teeth. Joseph Patrick Morphy, Joey Morphy, Joey-boy--"the Morph"--a real popular guy for one only a few years at New Baytown. A joker who got off his gags veily-eyed like a poker player, but he whinnied at other people's jokes, whether or not he had heard them. A wise guy, the Morph, had the inside dope on everything--and everybody from Mafia to Mountbatten--but he gave it out with a rising inflection, almost like a question. That took the smart-aleck tone out of it, made his listener a party to it so that he could repeat it as his own." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Jul 18 04:24:21 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:24:21 -0700 Subject: apizza Message-ID: My limited understanding of Italian grammar is that, unlike Spanish or English, the genitive pronoun can occur between the article and the noun, whence the famous aria in Don Giovanni, "Il mio tesoro". Hence, we would have "a mia pizza" for regional varieties in which "la" > "a", so the article would not be contiguous to the noun. Rudy From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 18 07:16:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:16:47 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <3D353E39.25107.9EE1CC9@localhost> Message-ID: >I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's >statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and >re-contextualizing of original statements. Absolutely! I've been interviewed a couple of times and never had a clue about what would actually appear in the paper when the article came out. Fortunately, I was pleased that they didn't make me sound like a rambling idiot. Rima From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Jul 18 13:06:56 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:06:56 -0400 Subject: press inquiry Message-ID: And there is wanded, as in "info wanded on statistical packages". That spelling of 'wanted' can be found in Google advanced, with a 1985 date. I don't know if wanded is merely a misspelling or jargon. George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 13:46:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > > > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. > > > Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like > either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British 'lot') I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and "caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for me, at least). color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables of "tolerance" caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to influence the 11th Collegiate. Now as for "hoarse"---MWCD10 provides me with a surprise. I always thought it was strictly a homophone for "horse", but the M-W people give a second pronunciation of /hawrse/, that is, the vowel is the /aw/ of "law". I've never heard that one, but I'll concede it may be widespread somewhere. (A friend in high school claimed that he and his mother went to the doctor. Her throat was red, but he had a hoarse of a different color. If 'hoarse" were not a homophone of "horse", that pun would not have worked.) Now for a surprise. I was going to say the second pronunciation of "hoarse" had the same vowel sound as "harsh", but luckily I looked up "harsh" in the 10th and discovered only one pronunciation listed: /hahrsh/ with the vowel being the /ah/ of "father". That's a new one on me, since I pronounce "harsh" with the /aw/ vowel of "arm". So I checked the 10th Collegiate's phonetic-symbol guide. There are two examples given for the phoneme specified for "harsh". One is "mop", which definitely has the /ah/ of "father". The other is "mar", which I always pronounce with the /aw/ of "arm" or "law". I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of "caught" and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most people's /ahr/ is converted to /awr/? Confused, Jim Landau From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 14:26:42 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:26:42 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: >In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > >> > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. >> > >> >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. >> >> >> Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like >> either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British >'lot') > >I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have >never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and >"caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for >me, at least). > >color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" >collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables >of "tolerance" >caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" > >MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start >sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to >influence the 11th Collegiate. > I'm in the unusual and--as far as I know--not geographically restricted minority for whom "color" and "cull 'er" are the only minimal pair (or even near minimal pair) for the PUT and PUTT vowels before /l/; for me, HULL, CULL, PULL, and FULL all have the same vowel sound. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 14:50:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:50:15 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: Greetings from Kiev. Lenin must be working this internet connection. It's just that fast. MATRUSHKA--little eggs, finely decorated. Sold at every tourist shop here. Tons of Google hits, but I didn't see it in the revised OED. Is that correct? HRYVNA--the currency unit. Again, not in OED, although "dollar" and "pound" and "peso" are. LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if the bumps in the road have a slang name. RED UNIVERSITY--founded in 1834 and painted red. No connection with "red"="communist," although this has been in tourist books. At least I was told there's no connection. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jul 18 15:43:53 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: Jim Landau, Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT, writes: >I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of "caught" >and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most people's >/ahr/ is converted to /awr/? Not by me. I make these and all the distinctions you point out in this post in the same way. I was born & raised in Nebraska, of parents born & raised in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas & Nebraska. [You didn't mention "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] A. Murie From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 18 15:50:40 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:50:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Me too; I born & raised in Penna. My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced "world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was born and raised in Salem, Mass. Anyone ever come across a young person who speaks this way? > ---------- > From: sagehen > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:43 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > Jim Landau, Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT, writes: > >I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of > "caught" > >and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most > people's > >/ahr/ is converted to /awr/? > > Not by me. I make these and all the distinctions you point out in this > post in the same way. I was born & raised in Nebraska, of parents born & > raised in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas & Nebraska. [You didn't > mention > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] > A. Murie > > From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 18 16:23:16 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:23:16 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: pop or soda? > ---------- > From: James A. Landau > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:17 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > > [You didn't mention > > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than > "arm."] > > > Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and > raised > in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and > Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). > > I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", > as > being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training > in > phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". > But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, > I > pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk > about > the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the > finish > on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of > "warm". > > Still confused, > > Jim Landau > > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:02:03 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" #collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables #of "tolerance" #caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" '/aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller"'? Different from '/ah/ as in father'? Is this the same vowel you use in "warm"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:03:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:03:22 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <23FE327B.4537DD80.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if #the bumps in the road have a slang name. We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:07:06 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:07:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Catherine Aman wrote: #My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten #many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced #"world" as "whirled" So do I; to me these are exact homophones. Likewise, I suspect, for the people whose cars carry the bumper sticker "Visualize whirled peas", a parody of "Visualize world peace". And AHD4 gives the prons whirl: hwu^rl, wu^rl (u-circumflex) world: wu^rld indicating homophony for wh/h-mergers, like me. How do you distinguish them? -- Mark A. Mandel From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:14:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:14:56 EDT Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > MATRUSHKA--little eggs, finely decorated. Sold at every tourist shop here. > Tons of Google hits, but I didn't see it in the revised OED. Is that correct? If I remember correctly, in Russian (but not necessarily in the Ukrainian of Kiev), a "matrushka" has nothing to do with eggs per se but instead is a nested set of painted dolls, which are egg-shaped so that each one (except the largest) will nest within the next-larger one. By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? Lwow is in the region known as "Galicia" (not to be confused with the province of the same name in Spain) which during the 20th Century belonged to Austria-Hungary then Poland then the Ukrainian SSR and finally to Ukraine (as best as I can tell, the Gentiles in Galicia all spoke Polish.) Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The region in Spain was, I am told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in Omnis Gallia), which is confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry to the "Celtiberians", the supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing (proto-Basque?) Iberians. Also, the region's name seems to be spelled "Galicia" but the local dialect is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the Gauls? And if so how did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic territory? - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:17:23 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:17:23 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > [You didn't mention > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and raised in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", as being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training in phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, I pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk about the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the finish on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of "warm". Still confused, Jim Landau From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jul 18 16:36:27 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/3/02 18:42, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/02 3:57:15 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: > > << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at >> least there used to be, in American gay lingo. >> >> Is that still current? > > I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that > way in a queer context. > > -- Steve Kl. >> > > To be more exact, as I recall, "clever" meant 'sexually attractive' only when > used of males and then only when combined with the words "number" or > "trick"--i.e., a "clever number" was a sexy guy. I can't say if it was > confined only to (parts of) the South, but my guess is that it is now archaic. I wonder if there's any connection with the phrase "Whatever's Clever" used in the sexual invitation ads in the back of alternative papers such as New York Press. http://www.tpigroup.com/nyvariations/WC0.html From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:37:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:37:56 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 12:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caman at AMLAW.COM writes: > pop or soda? Soda, thank you. Although I went to college at Michigan State, apparently a "pop" area (a New Yorker asked for "soda in cans" and was given baking soda), I associated mostly with out-of-state students and was never exposed to massive amounts of pop. For me, sodium carbonate is /warshing soda/. Do dyed-in-the-rayon pop speakers say "diet pop" or "diet soda"? Consider the following: "nitrate of soda" is sodium nitrate (Chile saltpeter, "Chili" saltpeter) "bicarbonate of soda" is sodium bicarbonate. Therefore, "chloride of soda" should be sodium choride (table salt), should it not? No, it's sodium hypochlorite (bleaching powder). - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:38:57 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:38:57 -0700 Subject: Cunning (Was: Re: hawk/hock) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think this use of "cunning" must have been fairly widespread in that generation. My paternal grandmother (born in California, spent her married life in Iowa) used it in this sense all the time. OTOH, I don't recall my maternal grandmother (born In Illinois but spent most of her life in Indian Territory, then Oklahoma) ever using it. --On Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:50 AM -0400 Catherine Aman wrote: > My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten > many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced > "world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, > used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was > born and raised in Salem, Mass. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:46:16 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:46:16 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:03 PM -0400 7/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >#LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if >#the bumps in the road have a slang name. > >We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. > No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) is blocked by homonymy... larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:51:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:51:48 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <2f.29f725b4.2a684380@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:14 PM -0400 7/18/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > > >By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? L'wiw is Ukrainian. Lwow is the Polish name. Lemberg is the German name. Same place. (See the cover story in last Sunday's Times Magazine for more on this. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 17:01:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:01:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:50 AM -0400 7/18/02, Catherine Aman wrote: >Me too; I born & raised in Penna. > >My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten >many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced >"world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, used >the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was born and >raised in Salem, Mass. Anyone ever come across a young person who speaks >this way? > Anyone from Boston or Eastern New England or New York who speaks a non-rhotic dialect (in which /r/ is not pronounced as a consonant at the end of a word or before a consonant) will approximate the "lahch" pronunciation. The stereotype is "pahk yaw cah in Hahvahd Yahd". I'm not sure in what sense "world" would merge with "whirled" rather than vice versa: do you mean it begins with the hw- sound (voiceless w) that some speakers use in "whether" as opposed to "weather"? I pronounce "world" and "whirled" as homonyms, neither with hw-. As for "cunning", the American Heritage Dictionary has ADJECTIVE: 1. Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness. 2. Executed with or exhibiting ingenuity. 3. Delicately pleasing; pretty or cute: a cunning pet. I assume sense 3 is indeed regionally restricted (maybe because I don't have it myself). If I had my copy of DARE on me, I could check to see if it's specifically found in Boston and Eastern Massachusetts, or perhaps more generally in that part of New England. (I haven't encountered it here in New Haven.) Larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Jul 18 17:19:21 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: Jim Landau wrote "Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The region in Spain was, I am told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in Omnis Gallia), which is confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry to the "Celtiberians", the supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing (proto-Basque?) Iberians. Also, the region's name seems to be spelled "Galicia" but the local dialect is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the Gauls? And if so how did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic territory?" Your assumption is wrong--the Gauls did not originate in the west and migrate east, but originated in the east. They first show up north of the alps and then come in contact with the Romans in the Po Valley. The Germanic and Slavic peoples are later arrivals in northern and southwestern Europe. The Gauls, like the rest of the Celts--and all other Indo-Europeans--originated in the east and spread westwards into Europe; their origin has been contested over the last century but the center of the competing hypotheses seems to be the area north of the Black Sea. The Celts first invade Italy around 400 BCE and battle the Romans at Clusium in 390 BCE, defeating the Roman army on the Allia, advance on Rome, burn it and besiege the Capitol in 387 BCE--this is how they enter history, coming over the alps in N. Italy. (Dates from Gerhard Herm, The Celts [1975]). Jim McKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology [1998]) says in part in his entry for Gaul "The culture and the language of the Celts extended across the Alps into Cisalpine Gaul ... what is today northern Italy down to the Apennines; at various times Celtic dialect was also spoken in much of northern Europe, from Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, much of the Balkans, to Galatia in what is today Turkey." The entry for Galatia says it is an "ancient district in central Anatolia ... settled in the 3rd century BC." _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 18 17:14:00 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:14:00 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Brooke Pierce wrote: > As for pen and ink journalists and the liberties they take ... I've been > "doing journalism" for the last couple years and have often been struck by how > easy it would be to cast the interview subject in a terrible light - or bathe > him in an angelic glow, depending upon one's desire. The editor wields amazing power. The Criterion Collection put out a 3-DVD set of Brazil. One of the DVDs plays the shortened (butchered, really) edited-for-TV version that has an audio overlay that describes scene by scene, and often beat by beat, the choice that was made by the editor for tv in order to basically turn the story around 180 degrees. The TV version was dubbed the "Love Conquers All" version (it has a happy ending) and it's extremely interesting to see how they re-arranged and sliced scenes in order to play up to the Love Conquers All motif. -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 18 17:20:58 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <23FE327B.4537DD80.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > HRYVNA--the currency unit. Again, not in OED, although "dollar" and > "pound" and "peso" are. Well, the currency is a post-USSR-breakup term, after all. FYI, regarding the spelling: Listed in the MRI Bankers' Guide to Foreign Currency and the CIA Factbook as "hryvnia", which would follow the standard Ukrainian Cyrillic to Roman transliteration. (The Ukrainan and Belarusian respellings of practically every city and town made for a lot of fun, let me tell you, in Referenceland. I actually bought a map of Ukraine written in Ukrainian as an aid.) -- Steve From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 18 18:36:42 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:36:42 -0700 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, probably not in Ukrainian... --On Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:46 PM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) > is blocked by homonymy... **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:18:23 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:18:23 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna Message-ID: Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too annoying, but here goes just in case: In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't you wanna?" I wonder: how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" (just kidding)... -Mai From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:30:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:30:12 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >annoying, but here goes just in case: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >you wanna?" I wonder: > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >(just kidding)... > One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 20:43:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:43:08 -0400 Subject: Okroshka Message-ID: On to Baba Yar and then a night train to Odessa tomorrow. My tour guide said "lying policemen," then said, to avoid confusion, "laying policeman"...He wrote the currency name that way on my notes...Yes, I should have said that matrushkas are egg-shaped dolls. They are not eggs. Many have American designs, such as George Bush, Bill Clinton, and even former NBA player Dennis Rodman. I can't read the WHAT'S ON web site address. It's on the cover of each issue, but a Ukrainian girl's body parts get in the way. Maybe it's: www.whatson-kyiv.com. From WHAT'S ON, 19 July-22 August 2002, pg. 28, col. 2: In particular they have all the Ukrainian classics: Borsch, Okroshka and Ukra fish soup. (OED doesn't have the classic "Okroshka"?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 20:45:34 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:45:34 EDT Subject: wanta / wanna Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 4:28:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't > >you wanna?" I wonder: > > > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) > given > >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > > > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > > > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" > >(just kidding)... > > > One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume > others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a > t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. > Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? Take one look at the spelling "Fanta" and its seems obvious that it is short for "fantasy" or "fantasia" or some such, and therefore should rhyme with "Santa [Claus]". I don't understand why the slogan wasn't written "Wanta Fanta? Don't you wanta", but as the old Winston cigarette commercials demonstrated, Madison Avenue is shaky on English grammar. - Jim Landau From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:57:19 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:57:19 -0500 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: My limited experience with Minnesotans suggests that younger speakers (under 30) are merged. I'm curious about Millie's note that her family distinguish the sounds "about 90% of the time." This is a phonemic contrast - don't you either have to have it or not? In the other 10% of the time, do they switch into a new phonology? Or maybe it's lexically specific? Millie Webb wrote: > I cannot say I have NEVER noticed the hock/hawk thing sounding the same for > some people, but I maintain that most of my family (I have seven siblings, > ages 31 to 48, all married [some to non-Minnesotans], and four of them still > living in the Cities, one in Rural MN), all of whom still distinguish the > two sounds about ninety percent of the time ("misspeaks happen" obviously). > Both of my parents use them both too, with my mom born and raised in St > Paul, leaving for about ten years (Chicago and south-central Michigan), and > returning for the next forty years. My dad has lived in the Cities for > those last forty years. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 21:03:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:03:51 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >>Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >>annoying, but here goes just in case: >> >>In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >>you wanna?" I wonder: >> >>how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >>that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; >> >>whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; >> >>how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >>(just kidding)... >> >One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume >others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a >t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. >Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? > Only in a Monty Python routine. And if they didn't, they should've. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:13:02 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:13:02 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:18 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >annoying, but here goes just in case: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >you wanna?" I wonder: > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >(just kidding)... > >-Mai But (city) New Yorkers would pronounce "wanta" with /t/, wouldn't they? That would trigger the rhyme, even if we wouldn't ordinarily pronounce the drink name with /a/. Did the ad originate in New York, I wonder? From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:36:55 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:36:55 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020718181032.00b139d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Oops- I was wrong: there is a "t" in the spelling of "don't you wanta?" (FWIW) mk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:02:07 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:02:07 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <9f.2a5772b1.2a684413@aol.com> Message-ID: Surely not. The /a/ of "warm" is massively influenced by the preceding /w/. That the /a/ of "harm" would be more like it (than that of "hot") is phonetically unlikely. The following /r/ may also impose features on /a/ which make it sound a bit like those preceded by /w/. dInIs (a "warsh" Louisville speaker with with a /a/ in /warsh/ like the /a/ in /warm/) >In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > >> [You didn't mention >> "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it >> sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] > > >Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and raised >in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and >Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). > >I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", as >being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training in >phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". >But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, I >pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk about >the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the finish >on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of >"warm". > > Still confused, > > Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:06:00 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:06:00 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Does preventive homonymy go only one way? It's better for policemen to get laid than to lie? (Actually, i would think so, but that may be an ethical-political prejudice.) dInIs >At 12:03 PM -0400 7/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>#LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if >>#the bumps in the road have a slang name. >> >>We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. >> >No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) >is blocked by homonymy... > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:12:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually Lwów (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, including the "barred L)") which makes Lódz (pronounced /wutsh/) the most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. dInIs Prestonski >At 12:14 PM -0400 7/18/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >>writes: >> >> >>By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? > >L'wiw is Ukrainian. Lwow is the Polish name. Lemberg is the German >name. Same place. (See the cover story in last Sunday's Times >Magazine for more on this. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:16:16 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:16:16 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See my previous post on the influence of preceding /w/ on /a/. dInIs >At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >>Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >>annoying, but here goes just in case: >> >>In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >>you wanna?" I wonder: >> >>how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >>that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; >> >>whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; >> >>how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >>(just kidding)... >> >One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume >others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a >t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. >Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 00:02:44 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:02:44 -0400 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel (fwd) Message-ID: It looks as if I accidentally sent this only to Michael, not to the list. -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:02:22 -0400 On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: #> Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" #> on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? # #There is some confusion over this. It rests on a misunderstanding of #the original EU directive, which seemed to suggest that "euro" is #invariant in the plural in all circumstances. This is observed by #many organisations in formal documents, including the Irish and #British central banks and other financial institutions. However, in #popular usage the usual orthographic rules take precedence. And the committee that designed the Euro symbol also prescribed a very specific form for it -- the ends of the crossbars to be slanted at so many degrees, etc. -- to be used in all contexts, whether or not it harmonized with the font and style of the text. That, too, has wisely been ignored. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 00:08:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:08:49 -0400 Subject: Cunning (Was: Re: hawk/hock) In-Reply-To: <349515.3235973937@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #I think this use of "cunning" must have been fairly widespread in that #generation. # #--On Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:50 AM -0400 Catherine Aman # #> My grandmother [...] #> used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was #> born and raised in Salem, Mass. Akkkk! Recollection just struck: My maternal grandmother, born and raised in NYC and lived there all her life, used it too. -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 19 03:02:49 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:02:49 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Larry Horn said: >> Anyone from Boston or Eastern New England or New York who speaks a non-rhotic dialect (in which /r/ is not pronounced as a consonant at the end of a word or before a consonant) will approximate the "lahch" pronunciation. The stereotype is "pahk yaw cah in Hahvahd Yahd". << I have to mention a story relating to the eastern Mass. dialect. In 1978, a colleague of mine at U Mass in Amherst was reading the class list in the first day of a new semester. She was careful to try to get the names right, and when she asked one guy whether she had pronounced his last name correctly, his reply was, to her ears: "Oh, that's OK, my name gets *slotted* all the time." My colleague paused for a moment, trying to understand what the guy said. She decided to move on and not ask. Being born and raised in the Midwest and upstate New York (Ithaca), she had not previously been exposed to eastern Mass. dialect in the raw. Only later did she realize that what he was saying was _slaughtered_, but with the E Mass. r-lessness and characteristic pronunciation of the first syllable of _slaughtered_ to rhyme with "blah", not (as she would pronounce it) to rhyme with "slaw". What we noticed on discussing this and other such incidents is that one can hear quite a bit of E Mass dialect without noticing anything very different from what one might hear in Cleveland or Ithaca, NY, then all of a sudden comes a word like _slaughter_ to remind you of who is talking. (Though U Mass is in r-ful western Mass., most of the students there hail from E Mass.) On the hawk/hock theme directly, I can report that the name of the hockey team, the Chicago Black Hawks, is said, in the E Mass dialect, with the last word _Hawks_ rhyming with "pox". I have heard this in Boston Bruins hockey broadcasts since the late 70s. Frank Abate From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 19 03:12:19 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:12:19 -0400 Subject: Fw: Re: Matrushka; Hryvna: more Message-ID: Jim MacKillop's comment attached _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim MacKillop" To: "David Bergdahl" Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Re: Matrushka; Hryvna: more > David: > > The question is asked without sufficient background in > early European history. Recent evidence (genome > studies, etc.) suggests that the Celtic peoples (a > term of 18th century coinage) have no unified ethnic > identity, only shared, related languages. Those > languages are first noted in the east, especially the > Danube Valley. It appears that that people we call > "Celts" most often referred to themsleves with words > containing the phoneme gal-, thus the Latin Gallia. > People calling themselves gal- survived in many parts > of Europe, thus Portugal, as well as the two Galicias. > I am not sure what the Polish and Spanish examples > have identical spellings in English, but it's mostly > likely the influence of medieval Latin. In Poland, > which I have twice visited recently, Galicia is > pronounced ("gal-ITS-ya"), a Latin borrowing. > > Best, > > Jim MacKillop > --- David Bergdahl wrote: > > Jim Landau wrote > > > > "Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The > > region in Spain was, I am > > told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in > > Omnis Gallia), which is > > confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry > > to the "Celtiberians", > > the > > supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing > > (proto-Basque?) Iberians. > > Also, the region's name seems to be spelled > > "Galicia" but the local dialect > > is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). > > > > Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the > > Gauls? And if so how > > did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic > > territory?" > > > > Your assumption is wrong--the Gauls did not > > originate in the west and > > migrate east, but originated in the east. They > > first show up north of the > > alps and then come in contact with the Romans in the > > Po Valley. The > > Germanic and Slavic peoples are later arrivals in > > northern and southwestern > > Europe. > > > > The Gauls, like the rest of the Celts--and all other > > Indo-Europeans--originated in the east and spread > > westwards into Europe; > > their origin has been contested over the last > > century but the center of the > > competing hypotheses seems to be the area north of > > the Black Sea. The Celts > > first invade Italy around 400 BCE and battle the > > Romans at Clusium in 390 > > BCE, defeating the Roman army on the Allia, advance > > on Rome, burn it and > > besiege the Capitol in 387 BCE--this is how they > > enter history, coming over > > the alps in N. Italy. (Dates from Gerhard Herm, The > > Celts [1975]). > > > > Jim McKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology [1998]) > > says in part in his > > entry for Gaul "The culture and the language of the > > Celts extended across > > the Alps into Cisalpine Gaul ... what is today > > northern Italy down to the > > Apennines; at various times Celtic dialect was also > > spoken in much of > > northern Europe, from Austria, Hungary, the Czech > > Republic, Slovakia, much > > of the Balkans, to Galatia in what is today Turkey." > > > > The entry for Galatia says it is an "ancient > > district in central Anatolia > > ... settled in the 3rd century BC." > > _________________________________ > > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > > nicht" > > --Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 03:14:47 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:14:47 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020718181032.00b139d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On 7/18/02 5:13 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > But (city) New Yorkers would pronounce "wanta" with /t/, wouldn't > they? That would trigger the rhyme, even if we wouldn't ordinarily > pronounce the drink name with /a/. Did the ad originate in New York, I > wonder? Interesting. But are you saying that there is some perceptual process that makes a near-rhyme sound like a rhyme to a listener in whose dialect the rhyme would occur? mk From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Fri Jul 19 03:28:13 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc Message-ID: I think the "cunning" is definitely a stronger marker for generation (psychosocial, if not actually chronological) than for region. I have heard it, and still hear it among Upper Midwestern Amish, but other than that have heard it only among older people (hmm, sixty or older? seventy or older?). It is definitiely "pop" in Minnesota, definitely "pop" in Michigan (including "diet pop"). But oddly enough , it seems to be "soda" in Wisconsin around Madison and Milwaukee. Methinks they "wanna/wanta" sound like Northeasterners? I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" When I say 90% of the time, Matt, I mean (as I believe I stated in my post) that they keep the distinction in theory all the time, but in practice, people misspeak, or their pronunciation is affected by the words surrounding the lexical item in question, the structure of the phrase or sentence, and so on. No one can tell me they "always" say [hahki], [hawki], or [haki] either, for another example. No one can tell me their sonogram would look the same each of ten times they said a given word, or even would be noted with the same exact "coloring" of the short vowel (influenced by -h, -w, lengthening, etc.) each of ten times by four different linguists who think they are coding "the same way". This is one reason I got so frustrated in graduate school one professor's insistence that I "couldn't" possibly code a NW Detroit white boy's short vowels the way I must have to come up with the counts I did -- it is "impossible" as far as he was concerned. Notice that not every sociolinguist's understanding of "strict IPA" coding matches either. Labov (or his graduate students, anyway!) coded some of their speakers' short vowels with some pretty odd "standards", viewed in later reflection. I have to ask if this is the Matt Gordon I know from MI. because if it is, I probably just embarassed myself by trying to answer a rhetorical question with way too much detail. :-) Amazing how memories of a particular personality fade over fifteen years, isn't it? :-P PS -- if it's the wrong Matt, please don't take it too personally.... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 13:45:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:45:42 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0400 7/18/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Actually Lwów (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an >accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, >including the "barred L)") which makes Lódz (pronounced /wutsh/) the >most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. > >dInIs Prestonski > Even by me, and my maternal grandparents emigrated from there. I thought it was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, er, vowel of "look" and a voiced final affricate. But then they'd have spoken Yiddish and pronounced it god knows how. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:13:27 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:13:27 -0400 Subject: Weird misparsing of the week Message-ID: Talk about your misdivisions... I just received a posting I excerpt below on a medical list I subscribe to: I have launched a new website, designed to allow survivors, their families and caregivers, a place to share experiences and gain inspiration and hope. The site is not only for MCLers, but will encompass survivors of all cancers. But because of my affinity for this group, and in recognition of the significant part you have played in nurturing my survival, I want to introduce it here first. The site is www.survivorsmiles.com . The home page is up, and I hope you will visit and register to be notified when it is fully functional. We are doing the back-end work now, and anticipate roll-out within the next two weeks. I hope you will also tell friends, family, and caregivers who may not be members of this group (and may suffer other cancers) about the site, and encourage them to visit. I read it very quickly, focusing on the URL for the web site, and thought: Survivors miles--what an interesting concept. Frequent flyer miles reserved for cancer survivors (in the way that other programs allow you to build up miles for using a particular phone company or credit card). I clicked on the web site, to find it was... [spoiler space below, if you want to think about it] SurvivorSmiles.com (This sort of misparsing must happen quite often, although perhaps not so dramatically, given the lower-casing of URLs.) Oh well, a smile is sometimes as good as a mile. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:32:04 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:32:04 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 7:12 PM -0400 7/18/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Actually Lwów (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an >>accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, >>including the "barred L)") which makes Lódz (pronounced /wutsh/) the >>most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. >> >>dInIs Prestonski >> >Even by me, and my maternal grandparents emigrated from there. I >thought it was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, er, vowel of "look" and a >voiced final affricate. But then they'd have spoken Yiddish and >pronounced it god knows how. > Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 14:32:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:32:45 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 11:10:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET (pseudonym for Jim MacKillop) writes: > > It appears that that people we call > > "Celts" most often referred to themsleves with words > > containing the phoneme gal-, thus the Latin Gallia. > > People calling themselves gal- survived in many parts > > of Europe, thus Portugal, as well as the two Galicias. > > I am not sure what the Polish and Spanish examples > > have identical spellings in English, but it's mostly > > likely the influence of medieval Latin. In Poland, > > which I have twice visited recently, Galicia is > > pronounced ("gal-ITS-ya"), a Latin borrowing. /gal 'its ya/ for the Galicia in/around Poland is correct. I have most often heard /gal 'it see ya/ but that's a slight mangling by anglophones. People from the region are in my experience called /gal 'it see yah n'rs/, again probably a slight anglicization. /its/ is "a Latin borrowing"? I understand that the Polish name "Kac" is pronounced /kahtz/ (and means "Cohen"), from which I deduce that in Polish the letter "c" is pronounced /ts/. Thank you for the information about the derivation of "Portugal" as "something of the Gauls". I must now add Portugal to my list of European nations whose names are in languages not currently spoken in those countries, e.g. "Spain" is from the Celtic word "span" meaning "palm [of one's hand]", referring to the flat country of Spain's central plateau. Litvaks (as used here, the term means Jews of Lithuanian ancestry, such as my wife) sneered at Galicianers (again the reference is to Jews from the Galicia in Austria-Hungary such as myself) as country bumpkins. The term I have most often heard is "horsethief", which in this context means not "a man who steals horses" but rather "a man who eats with his fingers". For example, the then fiance of my wife's youngest sister said, while looking at me with a perfectly straight face, "but I was told there weren't any horsethieves in the family." Or the man who was given the sixth Torah honor at a synagogue he was visiting. He thought he deserved better than the sixth honor, so he said to the president of the synagogue, "Where I come from, we give the sixth honor to horsethieves." The president replied, "Here, too." So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. - James A. Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:54:16 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:54:16 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >Laurence Horn said: >>I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>er, vowel of "look" and a >>voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>spoken Yiddish and >>pronounced it god knows how. >> > >Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) > >Alice > Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lwów bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lwów [lvuf] does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. larry From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 15:05:06 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:05:06 -0500 Subject: touch-tone as verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I went to activate a new credit card last night and was told to "touch-tone or say" my card number, the verification code, the last four digits of my SSN, etc. Not listed as a verb in NOAD, OED, AH4, or MW10, but I like it! I've been trying to think of a figurative use that doesn't sound salacious, but I can't. I don't know if that's my problem, or a problem of English. Oh, well. --Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 19 15:05:25 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:05:25 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: My Litvak wife (who has just discovered her family name Nieman was Novosetz~Novosedz~Nowosedz in Birzai, Lithuania) also remembers hearing Galitsiana for "bumpkin"--the equivalent of living in Podunk for USers. (The mythical residents of Chelm could also be invoked...) PS to Jim Landau--Jim MacKillop has no pseudonym: my teenage daughter picked "einstein" as our moniker--David Bergdahl _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 19 15:35:15 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:35:15 -0700 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). I didn't hear any difference in the pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), though I've never actually heard a Yiddish speaker mention the city. My Polish teacher had lived in the Lodz ghetto and done forced labor in a factory there during the war, but I don't know whether she was actually Jewish, or whether she spoke Yiddish. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:54 AM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >> Laurence Horn said: >>> I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>> er, vowel of "look" and a >>> voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>> spoken Yiddish and >>> pronounced it god knows how. >>> >> >> Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >> years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >> subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) >> >> Alice >> > Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city > names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names > tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, > and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lwów > bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lwów [lvuf] > does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something > like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final > devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. > > larry **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 19 15:36:05 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:36:05 -0700 Subject: pop-soda, etc Message-ID: >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Millie Webb > wrote: > >I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" > > That really surprises me. I grew up in northern Kentucky and visited Cincinnati often, and "pop" was always the word of choice. I do seem to remember hearing "Coke" occasionally when I'd venture further south in Kentucky, though. The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we lived in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very confused when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke would you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" Brooke Pierce From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 15:47:59 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:47:59 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc (+ Providence, RI) Message-ID: Shades of Jim Belushi (Coke, Coke, Coke, Coke, Pepsi, Coke, Coke). I went to college in Providence and was amazed to discover something on menus called a cabinet. Turned out to be a milkshake, not a piece of furniture. > ---------- > From: Brooke Pierce > Reply To: brookepierce at earthlink.net > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: pop-soda, etc > > The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we > lived > in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very > confused > when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke > would > you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" > > > Brooke Pierce > > From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 15:50:25 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:50:25 -0500 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc Message-ID: The variation you describe is all subphonemic. The Northern Cities Shift, which gives fronting of the vowel in 'hockey', does not alter phonemic categories, just how they're produced. Shifters and nonshifters have the same number of phonemes. The back vowel thing is different. The question is whether you (generic) have 2 phonemes or one. Those of us who are blessed with a single low back vowel have the freedom to use a range of forms from [a] to 'open o' in 'hock' as well as 'hawk'. Those of you still saddled with the phonemic distinction don't have such freedom. Sure, there'll be some influence of phonetic context so that you may have a rounder and backer vowel in 'bought' , b/c of the lip rounding of /b/, than in 'taught', but that range of variation should be smaller than for us, mergeratti. If someone really has a phonemic distinction, it seems unlikely to me that 10% of the time (and I recognize this is not an empirical finding) they would 'mispeak' to the point of confusing the distinction. After all, if this is a performance error (a term variationists despise), it should be random. Do they confuse the distinction between 'bought' and 'boat' also? As you know, phonemic distinctions are phonemic b/c they matter to comprehension, unlike most allophonic differences (e.g., [haki] v. [hAki]). So, the bottom-line question is what is going on phonemically. You could try a little test of the status of the vowel contrast. Present them with a list of words such as [caught, lot, dog, hawk, box, odd, cough, rough, hot] and ask them which of those has the same vowel as 'bought'. For people with a clear distinction, this task is pretty easy and they choose 'caught, hawk, cough', and maybe 'dog'. People who've merged tend to choose everything except 'rough'. People who choose 'cough' and 'rough' are likely confused about the task and focussing on spelling. Since the 'open o' phoneme is represented with a number of different spellings, it's very hard for a merged speaker to fake their way through the task - unless they've had training in the history of English. And, yes Millie, this is the Matt you knew at Michigan. -----Original Message----- From: Millie Webb [mailto:millie-webb at CHARTER.NET] When I say 90% of the time, Matt, I mean (as I believe I stated in my post) that they keep the distinction in theory all the time, but in practice, people misspeak, or their pronunciation is affected by the words surrounding the lexical item in question, the structure of the phrase or sentence, and so on. No one can tell me they "always" say [hahki], [hawki], or [haki] either, for another example. No one can tell me their sonogram would look the same each of ten times they said a given word, or even would be noted with the same exact "coloring" of the short vowel (influenced by -h, -w, lengthening, etc.) each of ten times by four different linguists who think they are coding "the same way". From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:00:52 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:00:52 -0400 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C4@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Gordon, Matthew J. said: >The variation you describe is all subphonemic. The Northern Cities >Shift, which gives fronting of the vowel in 'hockey', does not alter >phonemic categories, just how they're produced. Shifters and >nonshifters have the same number of phonemes. > >The back vowel thing is different. The question is whether you >(generic) have 2 phonemes or one. Those of us who are blessed with a >single low back vowel have the freedom to use a range of forms from >[a] to 'open o' in 'hock' as well as 'hawk'. Those of you still >saddled with the phonemic distinction don't have such freedom. Sure, >there'll be some influence of phonetic context so that you may have >a rounder and backer vowel in 'bought' , b/c of the lip rounding of >/b/, than in 'taught', but that range of variation should be smaller >than for us, mergeratti. > >If someone really has a phonemic distinction, it seems unlikely to >me that 10% of the time (and I recognize this is not an empirical >finding) they would 'mispeak' to the point of confusing the >distinction. After all, if this is a performance error (a term >variationists despise), it should be random. Do they confuse the >distinction between 'bought' and 'boat' also? As you know, phonemic >distinctions are phonemic b/c they matter to comprehension, unlike >most allophonic differences (e.g., [haki] v. [hAki]). > There's another possibility. As part of her study that I referred to earlier in this thread, Marianna Di Paolo collected a whole bunch of /a/-/ao/ minimal pair data (cot-caught, hock-hawk, wok-walk, tock-talk [her subjects weren't linguistics students so she couldn't use my favorite, ox-AUX], etc.). There were subjects who distinguished all, or most of the minimal pairs, but with some of them reversed, so, say tock and hawk had the same vowel and talk and hock had the same vowel. Assigning an individual lexical item to the etymologically incorrect category could be perceived as an inconsistent use of the distinction. And while we're on this theme, a datum that I'm not sure what to make of: on one of the usenet groups I read, a poster was talking about baby names and said "we named her Laurel Dawn, Laurel after my grandmother and Dawn after my husband, Don". (I have no clues where in the US this poster is from, and she didn't have a valid email address, so I couldn't ask.) Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 15:49:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:49:22 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: <179.b81ee55.2a697d0d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names Twice #appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) -- Mark M. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:10:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:10:20 -0700 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C4@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: OED? --On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:50 AM -0500 "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > mergeratti **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Jul 19 16:45:03 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:45:03 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? What regions? Herb Stahlke From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:55:28 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:55:28 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <134629.3236056515@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: No, in Polish the [u] is phonemically tense (close), not an allophone of /u/ being influenced by /w/. dInIs >For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a >woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I >suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so >that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as >close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). >I didn't hear any difference in the >pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. > >I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its >Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), >though >I've never actually heard a Yiddish speaker mention the city. My >Polish teacher had lived in the Lodz ghetto and done forced labor in >a factory there during the war, but I don't know whether she was >actually Jewish, or whether she spoke Yiddish. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:54 AM -0400 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >>>Laurence Horn said: >>>>I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>>>er, vowel of "look" and a >>>>voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>>>spoken Yiddish and >>>>pronounced it god knows how. >>>> >>> >>>Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >>>years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >>>subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) >>> >>>Alice >>> >>Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city >>names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names >>tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, >>and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lwów >>bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lwów [lvuf] >>does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something >>like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final >>devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. >> >>larry > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 16:52:51 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:52:51 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 11:49:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:19:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:19:54 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc (+ Providence, RI) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0400 7/19/02, Catherine Aman wrote: >Shades of Jim Belushi (Coke, Coke, Coke, Coke, Pepsi, Coke, Coke). > >I went to college in Providence and was amazed to discover something on >menus called a cabinet. Turned out to be a milkshake, not a piece of >furniture. > Yes, "cabinet" for 'milk shake' is standardly listed as a Rhode Island shibboleth, but I wasn't sure I believed it until I saw them listed as such in a snack shop in the Westerly/Misquamicut area (southwestern R.I.). larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:38:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:38:13 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <001b01c22f43$a23b3a20$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: >Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >What regions? > >Herb Stahlke Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:53:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:53:31 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in this matter. dInIs dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >>Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>What regions? >> >>Herb Stahlke > >Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >"Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:51:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:51:04 -0400 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:00 PM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: > As part of her study that I referred to >earlier in this thread, Marianna Di Paolo collected a whole bunch of >/a/-/ao/ minimal pair data (cot-caught, hock-hawk, wok-walk, >tock-talk [her subjects weren't linguistics students so she couldn't >use my favorite, ox-AUX], etc.). Well, for non-linguist birders, there's always ox-auks. I take it there's no one out there who phonetically distinguishes the sea birds from the functional category. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 18:21:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:21:22 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:53 PM -0400 7/19/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work >before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ >appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional >distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more >rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas >(Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in >this matter. > >dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against Pittsburgh's "Stillers"), but those "urban East"-type generalizations are odious, even if we all sound alike to you Midwesterners. Those PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart from their marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that they neutralize before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to perdition. We New Yorkers would never fall for that. L From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 19 18:38:56 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: For some time I've been interested in the way some people have regarded an execution as a wedding. For example, French has "la veuve" (= widow; guillotine) and English at one time had "the widow" (= gallows). The idea is that the gallows or guillotine is regarded as marrying the condemned prisoner at the time of execution; but since the prisoner promptly dies, the gallows/guillotine becomes a widow. A NY Times article of about 15 years ago (I didn't save it) mentioned that in the 19th century some prisoners went to their hanging in a wedding suit. Then there are the recent items pertaining to the Al Qaeda members, who regard their act of martyrdom as a wedding (maybe the 72 virgins play a role here). An article in the German magazine _Spiegel_ a month or two after 9/11 discussed a suspected terrorist cell in Italy. And I was struck by mention of a code word (presumably in Arabic) used by one alleged terrorist in a phone conversation: "Wedding." Meanwhile, I was also struck by another Spiegel article (Sept. 17, 1984,pp.142-144; title: "Wir werden hingerichtet" = "We will be executed"). The article is about Elizabeth (not her real name) who had been held in the notorious Evin prison in Teheran by the Khomeini regime. On page 143 she tells how she heard singing coming from a nearby room and recognized it as the Persian wedding song; the men singing had all been scheduled for execution. Here's a translation of the German text: "...'Welcome to Hotel Evin,' said the (female) guard and walked on. Over 40 of the women, after 'confessions' were beaten out of them, had been condemned to death... Elizabeth heard some of the men in a nearby upper room singing. At first she could not understand the words, but then she realized that it was the Persian wedding song. 'In this night out greatest wish will be fulfilled,' sang the men. A guard shouted at them to shut up. A voice answered; "Why should we? What else can you do to us. We're going to be executed.'" If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 19:08:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:08:49 -0400 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this >execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. > I don't know much about other cultures, but could there be a connection with the old factoid (I don't know if it's actually true) that upon being hanged, men get (and retain post-mortem) rather impressive erections? There are various fabliaux based on this assumption as well. But that would certainly reinforce the hanging = wedding connection. larry From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 19:37:11 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:37:11 -0400 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: anecdotal & free-associative thoughts only here, but some of my (male) friends have looked, at their weddings, distinctly like lambs being led to slaughter. resultant states of both wedding & execution proceedings are (or are supposed to be) permanent, and anticipation of same therefore inspires awe, fear & sense of radical departure from one's current status/world. both ceremonies are (or were) public, state-sanctioned ones in traditional communities. also, Catholic nuns renounce the world and "marry" the Church. > ---------- > From: Laurence Horn > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Execution viewed as wedding > > At 1:38 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > > If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this > >execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. > > > I don't know much about other cultures, but could there be a > connection with the old factoid (I don't know if it's actually true) > that upon being hanged, men get (and retain post-mortem) rather > impressive erections? There are various fabliaux based on this > assumption as well. But that would certainly reinforce the hanging = > wedding connection. > > larry > > From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 19:45:03 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:45:03 -0500 Subject: three-seventeen? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: someone has written me asking about a slang meaning for "three-seventeen" or "3-17" in this context: >I was watching Shipmates last night, and >the male dater used the phrase "three seventeen" a couple times. First, >when he jumped off a boat into the water, he yelled "3-17!" Then later, he >said that he was looking forward to "getting my 3-17 on." The host of the >show commented on this and said that he thought it was a veiled reference >to St. Patrick's Day. At first I thought it was some weird bible thing, >but the guy didn't seem like the type. The only (weird Bible) thing I could find was this: Colossians three seventeen says "And whatever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" Although it seems odd for a TV dating show (which I think Shipmates is, although I haven't seen it). I did a quick google and looked in the ADS archives, but no luck. I might not have done a good job; searching for numbers is tricky. (However, it seems that three-seventeen is a very popular time in fan fiction.) --Erin From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 20:00:17 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:00:17 -0400 Subject: three-seventeen? Message-ID: Re: 3/17 (from Blue Tigers Web site): "Delta Troop was a cavalry reconnaissance troop that served in Vietnam from October 1967 to April 1972. Our parent organization, the 3rd Squadron/17th Air Cavalry, was an independent air cavalry squadron. The squadron, and even its component troops and platoons, served with many different combat brigades and divisions on temporary assignment." Perhaps a reference to this air unit or its upcoming reunion? Or perhaps police radio shorthand (like "10-90") as used on pagers by kids? Or perhaps an area code (it's Indiana) reference to some festival, trip, etc? > ---------- > From: Erin McKean > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:45 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: three-seventeen? > > someone has written me asking about a slang meaning for > "three-seventeen" or "3-17" in this context: > > >I was watching Shipmates last night, and > >the male dater used the phrase "three seventeen" a couple times. First, > >when he jumped off a boat into the water, he yelled "3-17!" Then later, > he > >said that he was looking forward to "getting my 3-17 on." The host of > the > >show commented on this and said that he thought it was a veiled reference > >to St. Patrick's Day. At first I thought it was some weird bible thing, > >but the guy didn't seem like the type. > > > The only (weird Bible) thing I could find was this: > > Colossians three seventeen says "And whatever ye do in word or deed, do > all in > the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by > him" > > Although it seems odd for a TV dating show (which I think Shipmates > is, although I haven't seen it). I did a quick google and looked in > the ADS archives, but no luck. I might not have done a good job; > searching for numbers is tricky. (However, it seems that > three-seventeen is a very popular time in fan fiction.) > > --Erin > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:42:39 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:42:39 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:46 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > > > > > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. > > > > > > Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like > > either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British >'lot') > >I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have >never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and >"caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for >me, at least). > >color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" >collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables >of "tolerance" >caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" [and "haul 'er," to >continue the pattern?] > >MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start >sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to >influence the 11th Collegiate. > > Confused, > > Jim Landau Now you know dictionaries don't always capture all variant pronunciations. I assure you, all three words can be homophones in this area of Ohio, where merger of /a/ and /aw/ (or /O/) is common but not to the /a/ of central Ohio and west of the Mississippi. (These are not my "landspeople", but I've studied the area for 22 years.) The vowel in "color" may lower to /a/, OR it may back to form a triple merger with 'collar' and 'caller', but at the intermediate low back rounded vowel heard in Brit. Eng. "hot" (cf. Kenyon). One of our dept. secretaries says "color" with /a/, the other with the "turned script a" used by Kenyon, Ladefoged, Wells, Kurath & McDavid, et al. Louisville doesn't merge any of these sounds, if I understand you and Dennis correctly. SE Ohio has the Pittsburgh merger of /a/ and /O/ to "turned script a," but it adds (in the local "uncorrected" vernacular) the lowered and sometimes backed vowel in "color." Trust me. I've learned that it is also used in Newfoundland, where one linguist I talked to attributes it to Scots-Irish and/or Irish roots. BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 21:19:04 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:19:04 -0500 Subject: mock dictionary definitions that lexicographers would actually find humorous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here they are. http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0207/delight/ The first one made me laugh, anyway. Sorry for the cross-post. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 19 21:53:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:53:20 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc Message-ID: At 08:36 AM 7/19/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Millie Webb > >wrote: > > > >I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it >all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" > > > > > >That really surprises me. I grew up in northern Kentucky and visited >Cincinnati often, and "pop" was always the word of choice. I do seem to >remember hearing "Coke" occasionally when I'd venture further south in >Kentucky, though. > >The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we lived >in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very confused >when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke would >you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" > > >Brooke Pierce I agree with Brooke on southern (and southeastern) Ohio generally as "pop" areas; no one in Athens County would say "coke" (note small 'c'). But perhaps the very lowest part of Ohio, around Portsmouth ("Porchmouth," as in Virginia) and Ironton ("Arn?on," with glottal stop), uses "coke"; I'll check with my students from that mid-Kentucky-latitude region. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 22:02:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:02:41 EDT Subject: The Pierian spring Message-ID: In a message dated 07/19/2002 4:09:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test > words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed > schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different > matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. Having no training in phonetics, I know better than to touch the Pierian spring of IPA. That's why I have been giving rhymes, in hopes of not being ambiguous. For me the first syllable of "color" rhymes with cull, dull, gull, hull, lull, mull, null, sully, and skull. If that doesn't help, then it is the vowel as in Hun, Khun, Kun, nun, run, sun, ton, won, and of course pun. Pronouncing "color" as /'cUl-'r/ (that is, with the /U/ of pull, wood, good, etc.) sounds very odd to my ears. I really have no idea what the usual pronunciation of "wash" might be in Louisville, Kentucky. Obvously my family or somebody I learned from said /warsh/ with a vowel somewhere near that of "arm". Living here in the Northeast, I'm often asked where my Southern accent is. I think I have faint traces of such, particullarly in the word "Southern", which I pronounce as /suth-'n/ (/u/ as in, well, color), dropping most or all of the /r/. Now, if I drop a fair number of /r/s, why should I insert a superfluous /r/ in "wash"? Still confused Jim Landau From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 22:37:26 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:37:26 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in this matter. dInIs dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >>Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>What regions? >> >>Herb Stahlke > >Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >"Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >larry From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 23:00:39 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:00:39 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: on 7/19/02 5:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. at GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU wrote: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig > but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by > Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Maybe the spelling reflects earlier forms that are relevant here. Would any vowel except a "long o" sound right in vogue or rogue or a "long u" in fugue? The -logue words seem not to have the "long o," perhaps because of some influence from the preceding syllables that I don't wanna figure out right now. In a sense, it is a "lexical" matter. DMLance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Cc: > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work > before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ > appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional > distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more > rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas > (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in > this matter. > > dInIs > > dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > > > >>> Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>> Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>> of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>> where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>> I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>> don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>> had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>> What regions? >>> >>> Herb Stahlke >> >> Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >> murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >> "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >> friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >> was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >> me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >> tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >> Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. >> >> larry > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 23:36:50 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:36:50 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 5:37 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax >vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe >Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with >that.) > Heh, heh. In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in [krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense (without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. L From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 23:45:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:45:47 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: <62.22c97f57.2a699de3@aol.com> Message-ID: [James A. Landau] #So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names #Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. [Mark A. Mandel] "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) [Jim again] #Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). The premise of the stories is a gadget, the "spindizzy", that has made it possible for the cities of an economically exhausted Earth to "go Okie", traveling through space as migrant labor for other human-settled worlds. At one point the main character of the stories, the mayor of New York, is appearing incognito at a meeting of many leaders of flying cities, who are often called by the names of their cities, e.g. (made-up ex.), "The Chair recognizes Topeka." An ally in his parliamentary maneuverings asks him who he is, and he whispers, "What city has two names, twice?" The other gasps as he solves the riddle (New York being one of the most respected of the cities). Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up, and just now that you had gotten it from his story. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 00:13:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:13:04 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [James A. Landau] >#So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names >#Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. > > [Mark A. Mandel] >"Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) > > [Jim again] >#Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. > >OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for >NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's >"Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). > >... >Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all >along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up, and just now >that you had gotten it from his story. > Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" larry From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Jul 20 01:28:13 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:28:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I was wondering if this topic is the one with most contributions from List members. And if so, why? Allan Metcalf may want to cite this for honorable mention at the ADS annual meeting. Just a thought! Tom Paikeday From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 01:43:30 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:43:30 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/2002 8:12:00 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" >> I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jul 20 02:04:44 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:04:44 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: Yeah, I think Craig might be lexically exceptional. I'm pretty sure I have a tense vowel in Haig, so it's homophonous with Hague. Still, I rarely put much stock in my linguistic intuitions and probably even less so when dealing with unusual words like these. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 6:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in [krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense (without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. L From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 20 02:11:26 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:11:26 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: If it weren't for "vegg", "Hegg & Hegg", and "plegg", I might buy that it's lexical. Rather, I think this is a relatively rare sequence--only "vague" is fairly frequent, so it could just as well be an elimination of a not very productive contrast. Note that there are no lax vowel words in English that form minimal pairs with these, so laxing them causes no problems. Herb Stahlke > on 7/19/02 5:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. at GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU wrote: > > > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig > > but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by > > Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) > > Maybe the spelling reflects earlier forms that are relevant here. Would any > vowel except a "long o" sound right in vogue or rogue or a "long u" in > fugue? The -logue words seem not to have the "long o," perhaps because of > some influence from the preceding syllables that I don't wanna figure out > right now. In a sense, it is a "lexical" matter. > > DMLance > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > > Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > > > Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work > > before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ > > appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional > > distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more > > rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas > > (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in > > this matter. > > > > dInIs > > > > dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > > > > > > > >>> Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named > >>> Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling > >>> of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, > >>> where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. > >>> I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I > >>> don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children > >>> had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? > >>> What regions? > >>> > >>> Herb Stahlke > >> > >> Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a > >> murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) > >> "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the > >> friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story > >> was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for > >> me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. > >> tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the > >> Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >> > >> larry > > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 20 02:22:02 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:22:02 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Those > PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart > from their > marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that > they neutralize > before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to > perdition. We New > Yorkers would never fall for that. An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my merries and Murrays apart... Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 03:02:38 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:02:38 EDT Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: I agree that Greg has influenced Craig--where I grew up (Central NY) we have a good distinction between Greg and vague, but Craig rhymes with Greg. Dale Coye From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 03:06:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:06:00 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: [Mark Mandel] #>OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for #>NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's #>"Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). #Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" Yes, THAT one I know as a publicity slogan. -- Mark M. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 03:20:59 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:20:59 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <126.13dea3d5.2a6a2cce@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >I agree that Greg has influenced Craig--where I grew up (Central NY) we have >a good distinction between Greg and vague, but Craig rhymes with Greg. And just to confuse things further--or perhaps evidence of this confusion--is the name of a former Yankees third baseman Graig Nettles. I only ever heard announcers pronounce it as if it were Greg. Alice -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 04:48:59 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:48:59 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 6:43:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > In a message dated 7/19/2002 8:12:00 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it > twice" >> > > I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. Every Pacific Northwesterner knows it's Walla Walla--that's exactly what I thought when I saw the subject line. Fritz From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 04:58:11 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:58:11 EDT Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 3:37:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in > Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is > influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) When I was in grad school, I had two buddies named Greg, one from Indiana and the other from Utah. Our prof was speaking to the Hoosier one day and called him grEg which he corrected to Grayg, i.e. [gre:g]. The other Greg agreed with that pronunciation. Both seemed a little put off with 'grEg.' I have always rhymed Greg, leg, egg, beg with Craig--with [e:] or even [ei], definitely not [E]. Fritz PS Is this another Oregon/Washington isogloss? :-) From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 20 04:57:10 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700 Subject: Lodz In-Reply-To: <134629.3236056515@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: >For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a >woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I >suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so >that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as >close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). >I didn't hear any difference in the >pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. > >I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its >Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), >though My mother was born in Bolyislatzve (I have never looked at a map nor seen that written, this may be the first time I've tried to spell it) - a little town in Poland. Though she came to the US when she was 5, she said the nearest big town was Lodz and pronounced the initial l and the rest as above, i.e., ludzh. She never spoke Polish, only Yiddish as a child. Since all siblings are now deceased, I can't ask anyone for corroboration. Rima From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Sat Jul 20 05:09:59 2002 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:09:59 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: >This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >Pittsburgh's "Stillers") Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly thereafter. Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have in )? Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers." -- Leo Tolstoy From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Jul 20 06:15:40 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:15:40 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax > vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. > Maybe Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything > wrong with that.) I once met a person from the small town of Hague, Saskatchewan. "As in, 'The Hague?'" I asked politely. "No, not 'the hag'... 'Haig!'" Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 20 07:09:25 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:09:25 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. Rima From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:27:56 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:27:56 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >'Urban East' is a sillniess i should never have uttered. dInIs >At 1:53 PM -0400 7/19/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work >>before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ >>appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional >>distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more >>rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas >>(Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in >>this matter. >> >>dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >> >This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >Pittsburgh's "Stillers"), but those "urban East"-type generalizations >are odious, even if we all sound alike to you Midwesterners. Those >PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart from their >marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that they neutralize >before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to perdition. We New >Yorkers would never fall for that. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:44:44 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:44:44 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C7@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: >Yes, Matt, I liike historical anecdotes better than intuitions. But >I am pretty sure that lax "Craig" for me is learned. When I was a >young flatland hillbilly (from Lousville), I had the temerity to >appear in some Shakespearean productions. Starting at the bottom of >course, I began my way up by appearing as a murderer in the Scottish >play. One of Macduff's children (whom I was about to send to his >maker) refers to me as a "shag-haired villain," and I was to exclaim >"What! You egg!" On my first reading, I used my local tense vowel >(as I also did in "leg" and other such items). I was advised to >relax. dInIs > >Yeah, I think Craig might be lexically exceptional. I'm pretty sure >I have a tense vowel in Haig, so it's homophonous with Hague. Still, >I rarely put much stock in my linguistic intuitions and probably >even less so when dealing with unusual words like these. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 6:36 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Cc: >Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > >In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in >[krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. >For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would >you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" >after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be >a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense >(without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:47:24 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:47:24 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <20020720022202.86033.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nope. larry ill-advisedly spells the plural of "Mary" as "Maries" and you took it (quite reasonably) to be "Marie," which of course all of us conflaters keep distinct. dInIs > > Those >> PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart >> from their >> marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that >> they neutralize >> before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to >> perdition. We New >> Yorkers would never fall for that. > >An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, >marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my >merries and Murrays apart... > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:58:12 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:58:12 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: What makes me think /E/-/e/ conflation is related to /I/-/i/ conflation (and /u/-/U/ as well), at least before /l/, is the fact that, at least in our tapes of people from such areas, those who have "filled" for "field" also have "felled" for "failed" and "pull" for "pool." Looks pretty staightforward to us. Geography is a problem since we have tapes of speakers with these conflations from a wide area, particularly African American speakers from all over the country. If this conflation follows from the same conflation before /r/, as I suspect it does quite naturally, then one would not expect it to appear in areas where distinctions before /r/ are robust (as in NYC "Mary"-"merry", as larry so vehemently pointed out). dInIs PS: Of course, I know "marry" is also distinct, but since /ae/ apparently has both tense and lax versions inn NYC (hence the complex /ae/-raising rule), it doesn't really play a role in this "simple" tense-lax discussion. >On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: > >>This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >>the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >>Pittsburgh's "Stillers") > >Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , >and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly >thereafter. > >Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] >conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have >in )? > >Cheers, >Scott > >_____________________________________________________________ >Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator > >sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com >http://www.spanishtranslator.org >_____________________________________________________________ >"Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale >murderers." > -- Leo Tolstoy -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 14:27:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:27:49 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Rima McKinzey wrote: #For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg #rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I #wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. This goes for me, with two modifications: "raised but not born in NYC", and "why Gary can rhyme with either marry or Mary". -- Mark Mandel From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 20 14:57:20 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:57:20 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry and Murray or ferry and furry. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Nope. larry ill-advisedly spells the plural of > "Mary" as "Maries" and > you took it (quite reasonably) to be "Marie," which > of course all of > us conflaters keep distinct. > > dInIs > > > > Those > >> PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries > apart > >> from their > >> marries and merries, so it's not too surprising > that > >> they neutralize > >> before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to > >> perdition. We New > >> Yorkers would never fall for that. > > > >An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, > >marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my > >merries and Murrays apart... > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > >http://health.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 15:03:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:03:41 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology Message-ID: Greetings from Odessa, on a vacation where I get on the internet to see how much money I've lost. ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh water source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. This sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this one? THE KYIV BEET & KYIV BURP--Kiev's answer to THE ONION. See www.geocities.com/thekyivbeet. The other one is listed only at kyivburp307 at hotmail.com. WOMAN WITH A KITCHEN KNIFE--Nickname for the ugly Soviet statue in Kiev (Motherland), supposedly their answer to the Statue of Liberty. TO LIVE IS GOOD. TO LIVE GOOD IS BETTER--My tour guide said this was a saying in Soviet days. BANDURA--"is a Ukrainian folk instrument which looks somewhat like a misshapen lute but sounds somewhat like a harp." Only one OED hit, with the Ukraine not mentioned. DREIDEL--The Museum of Historical Treasures of Ukraine has 400 items of Judaica, including a Scroll of Esther. Not one dreidel!...No Jewish Museum anywhere around here. OFF TOPIC: BABI YAR--A menorah was finally placed on the site in 1991, fifty years later. The site happens to be near a destroyed Jewish cemetery. A communications plaza is now built on the Jewish graves. The Soviets, under pressure, put an ugly statue on the wrong site in 1976. No mention of Jews was on the plaque. One Ukrainian writer was killed at Babi Yar, so the Soviets put up a large cross. Amazing. WALLET TRICK--As I was walking down the street, I saw a wallet on the ground. Someone near me picked it up. Then a man came and asked me, in English, if I found his wallet. Hey guy, you got the scam wrong, because the wrong guy picked it up! I was told that the "wallet scam" is famous all over the Ukraine, but I don't know if there's a particular name for it. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 15:10:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:10:30 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <20020720145720.13416.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ed Keer said: >Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >and Murray or ferry and furry. Definitely part of the Iggles complex, as both phenomena (rooting for the Iggles and near-merger of merry and Murray) are endemic to Philadelphia. Labov has written extensively on one branch of this complex. Alice -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 15:29:08 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:29:08 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology In-Reply-To: <64B5A392.5621AE4B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >Barry writes: >ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh water >source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. This >sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this one?< ~~~~~~ Seems more likely this dubious notion would have been "enough water," not "no water" (assez d'eau). A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 15:33:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:33:11 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology In-Reply-To: <64B5A392.5621AE4B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh #water source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. #This sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this #one? Odessa laugh! (This is from an old joke dialogue using place names. If you don't get it, think of it as "Oh, that's a laugh!" in some appropriate combination of accent and skewed pronunciation.) -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 15:43:21 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:43:21 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Ed Keer said: >>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>and Murray or ferry and furry. ~~~~~ Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" --like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. A. Murie From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 20 15:43:10 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:43:10 +0100 Subject: Odessa etymology Message-ID: Nathalie Babel 'The Complete Works of Isaac Babel' (NY 2002) p.183 (note) 'Khadzhibei was the small settlement where in 1794 Czarina Catherine II decided to build a powerful Black Sea harbor, which she then renamed Odessa.' No etymology, I fear, but that remark doesn't _sound_ as if French came into it. Anyway, 'no water' would be 'pas d'eau' wouldn't it? Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 17:30:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 07/19/2002 7:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for > NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's > "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). The only place I ever heard "two names twice" was in Blish's _Earthman Come Home_, which is the third volume of the Cities in Flight series. Blish was not much given to inserting wisecracks in his writing, so I guessed that it was an old New York riddle that Blish (who I think worked in Madison Avenue) had heard. There are only 2 Blish wisecracks that I can remember. Both are obscure puns, made even more obscure by not being in English. One was from the Cities in Flight series---one of the first cities to go flying away was "Gravitogorsk", punning on the (real) city of Magnitogorsk. The other was in _The Night Shapes_, where a Latin teacher had an affair with a student. "Together they studied all the conjugations of _amo_". > Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all > along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up I have no evidence either way as to whether Blish invented it, so your original assumption may be right. Blish's sense of humor was sufficeintly recondite that he could have invented it himself. And now that you mention spindizzies, I finally get the "Come fly with me" remark. BTW, the mathematical derivation that Blish quotes for the spindizzies first appeared in an article in Astounding Science Fiction (sorry I can't give you the date it appeared). It was not Blish's own invention, unless Blish were playing a pointless practical joke by publishing under a pen name. Now for an interesting piece of Blish trivia. His "Year 2018" contains an acid and unflattering portrait of an FBI director who is obviously modelled on J. Edgar Hoover---then alive and at the height of his reputation. Randall Garrett wrote a potboiler "The Hunting Lodge" which among other tired stereotypes had a benign and farsighted FBI director. This says a lot about those two writers, doesn't it? Not quite, because Blish later wrote about Garrett, "there is imbedded in Mr. Garrett's several million words of trash one superb story ("The Hunting Lodge")". (William Atheling, Jr (pseudonym for James Blish) "The Issue at Hand", Chicago: Advent Publisher, 1964, page 31n.) - Jim Landau (feeling very spun-dizzy for not understanding your joke) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 17:36:02 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:36:02 -0700 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <95.1fbe7451.2a6a45bb@aol.com> Message-ID: I must have been absent from school that day :) Thanks for filling me in. The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fritz Juengling > In a message dated 7/19/02 6:43:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > > I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. > Every Pacific Northwesterner knows it's Walla > Walla--that's exactly what I > thought when I saw the subject line. > Fritz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:01:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:01:10 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > >Ed Keer said: >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > ~~~~~ >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. >A. Murie How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym of "berry". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:03:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:03:09 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0700 7/20/02, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I must have been absent from school that day :) Thanks for filling >me in. > >The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon >as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. > Yup, once each by the twin naming-wallahs visiting from India. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 18:04:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:04:54 EDT Subject: "Dress like whores" Message-ID: In a message dated 07/17/2002 1:23:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge > Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow > traveler complained that they all dress like whores. In a message dated 07/17/2002 2:32:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > I was in Vilnius a couple weeks ago, and I heard Lithuanian women at the > conference complaining that their local fashion choices seemed to be to > dress like Soviet-era grandmothers or like whores. I am surprised that a philologist of Barry Popik's experience would let the phrase "dress like whores" pass without comment. Prostitution is, among other things, a business, and as a business it requires advertising. Protitutes can be divided into two classes thusly: 1) the so-called "streetwalkers" who do their own advertising 2) the ones (e.g. crib whores and call girls) who depend on management to perform advertising A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. Consider the following 3,000-year-old account "[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." For a more modern example, in Moscow circa 1970 whores displayed themselves by writing their price on the soles of their shoes. If the women in an area dressed "like whores", then the streetwalker-type whores would dress differently, so as to "stand out in the crowd" (i.e. be recognizable). The above is an example of non-verbal communication. For example, it is only convention that jackboots and microskirt, as worn by Julia Roberts in the movie "Pretty Woman", denotes a streetwalker. Were it not for convention, she could be mistaken for a woman who repairs water mains for the Municipal Utility District, or althernatively for someone about to go fly fishing. It is interesting that type 2) whores do not dress "like whores". A gril in a "house" dresses in whatever the local style for house whores is, or in the low-price-due-to-volume establishments, for convenience in undressing. Eliot Ness, describing a raid on a speakeasy/brothel, commented that the prostitutes "wore the komonos of their profession". Call girls, oddly, frequently make a point of NOT dressing like whores, because they need to travel to their customers WITHOUT attracting the attention of police officers and hotel detectives. (The book "Mayflower Madam" contains a lengthy discussion of how the call girls dressed---in this case, with taste, since this was a high-class operation.) An incidental note: "house" as in "house of prostitution" or "disorderly house" is a misnomer, since there have existed mobile whorehouses that operate out of the backs of trucks. As for "laying/lying policeman", when the New York Police Department decided to put the Mayflower Madam out of business, they had three police officers pose as customers so as to be able to testify in court as the offenses observed. One of the three, uh, "blew" it by actually having sex with the call girl. He was, quite literally, a "laying policeman." > My tour guide is a 20-year old college student (mathematics). I asked > about slang, and, as I sometimes get as a response, there is "no slang" in > the Ukraine. For example, outside this hotel is the bear with the Olympic > belt (a symbol of the 1980 Olympics). I asked if the bear had a name. "Bear, > " he said. If memory serves, the 1980 Olympic bear was named "Misha". - James A. Landau systems engineer and sometimes communications engineer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:22:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:09 AM -0700 7/20/02, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg >rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I >wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. > >Rima This one puzzled me too at some point, when I tried to discover my own vowel rules, for a dialect very similar to Rima's (must have been in intro phonology). I think I concluded that underlyingly for me the name was "Garry", even though it could be spelled either way. (After all, Garry Moore was the archetype Garry.) And of course that makes it rhyme with other "closed syllable" -rry names (Larry, Barry, Harry) and words (carry, marry, tarry, parry). This doesn't actually work, though, because I'm pretty sure "Cary" (as in Grant) is always spelled with one -r-, but it too rhymed with "marry" (and "carry") rather than with "Mary" or the "airy" words. Definitely lexical (i.e. idiosyncratic), and not particularly stable; I now go either way on "Cary" and "Gary". Larry (rhyming with Gary and Cary) P.S. I'm quite sure that if I were singing the song from "The Music Man", I'd sing it with my /ae/ and not my /eh/ vowel, which is maybe why I avoid singing it: GARRY, Indi- ana, GARRY Indiana, GARRY Indi- ana, Let me say it once again [No, I don't usually spell it that way, I just pronounce it as if I did] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:34:59 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:34:59 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: <18d.b08778a.2a6b0046@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:04 PM -0400 7/20/02, James A. Landau wrote: >A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they >are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her >to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. >Consider the following 3,000-year-old account > >"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." > Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following the law as best she could. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:59:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:59:02 -0400 Subject: "meanderthal" Message-ID: An intermittently blend, and evidently not a brand-spanking-new word, but still relatively new. I first encountered it in a piece in the Times earlier this week... The New York Times July 16, 2002, Tuesday SECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk HEADLINE: Think You Own the Sidewalk?; Etiquette by New York Pedestrians Is Showing a Strain BYLINE: By MARC SANTORA The average New York City fast walker does not have to get stuck behind a pack of mall walkers to grow sour. A single person moving at a slow clip-clop can be enough. There is even a word for this slowpoke: meanderthal. An Internet dictionary of slang defines him as "an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of another individual who is in a bit of a hurry." ====== The first Nexis hits are a couple of Herb Caen columns (1993, 1994) that use the word in a different sense: just a man (i.e. Caen) who likes to meander (e.g. past the Condomania store in S.F. with a sign advertising "Condoms Half Off"). There's also a mid-90's musical group with the same name (Meanderthal, that is, not Condomania). But the earliest relevant Nexis hit is: The Atlanta Journal and Constitution March 2, 2001 Friday, Home Edition SECTION: Features; Pg. 2E HEADLINE: eLIVING BYLINE: Jeffry Scott ... meanderthal (n) an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of another individual who is in a hurry SUBMITTED TO THE PEOPLE'S DICTIONARY BY PETER BOJKOV OF NEW YORK CITY ========= Does Bojkov get coining credit or was it already around before this? larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 19:01:33 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:01:33 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Lord slew Dorothy Parker's parrot for seed-spilling? dInIs >At 2:04 PM -0400 7/20/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they >>are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her >>to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. >>Consider the following 3,000-year-old account >> >>"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >>entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >>to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." >> >Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >the law as best she could. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 20:04:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:04:17 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The Lord slew Dorothy Parker's parrot for seed-spilling? > >dInIs Not, I maintain, a possible inference from the parenthetical below. Nor, however, is it really fair to speak of "onanism" in reference to anything other than the mortal sin of declining to impregnate the widow of one's brother. >>Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >>made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >>annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >>The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >>just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >>law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >>Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >>Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >>father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >>the law as best she could. >> >>larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 20 19:52:09 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:09 -0500 Subject: Tamar, Onan, Judah, Shelah (was: "Dress like whores") Message-ID: If I may just provide a few details: Judah (one of Jacob's sons) selected a wife for Er, his firstborn. But Er died, leaving Tamar a widow. Judah then told Er's brother Onan to marry Tamar and produce a child with her. Onan, practicing a bit of estate planning, "spilled his seed" rather than produce an heir in his brother's name. Big mistake. Exit Onan. Judah then told Tamar to wait until his youngest son Shelah was grown, whereupon she would get to marry him. He grew up, but no marriage occurred. Tamar, knowing full well that she was being cheated out of the opportunity for motherhood, played the role of a harlot and fooled Judah into impregnating her. This was a bit unconventional, but even Judah later realized he had acted incorrectly and Tamar was justified in what she had done. The custom of having a brother marry his deceased brother's wife made very good sense to the ancient Hebrews. Producing children played a key role in their culture, and it made no sense at all to have a young woman of child-bearing age spending years unable to produce children simply because she was widowed. Hence the order to Onan to do his duty by his people and religion by marrying Tamar and producing children. In my Etymology class I devote a lecture to understanding the rationale behind various Hebrew names (e.g., Michael, Reuben, Joel, Isaac, Joseph), and part of the rationale is the great importance of fertility in ancient times. Tamar fits very well into this theme. Gerald Cohen >> At 2:34 PM -0400 7/20/02, Laurence Horn wrote: >>"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >>entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >>to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." >> >Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >the law as best she could. > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 20:34:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:34:18 -0400 Subject: Tamar, Onan, Judah, Shelah (was: "Dress like whores") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If I may just provide a few details: > > Judah (one of Jacob's sons) selected a wife for Er, his firstborn. >But Er died, er, yeah, but more explicitly: "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him." Doesn't say why--maybe he hesitated too often. Well, it does get the plot moving. > leaving Tamar a widow. Judah then told Er's brother Onan >to marry Tamar and produce a child with her. Onan, practicing a bit >of estate planning, "spilled his seed" rather than produce an heir in >his brother's name. Big mistake. Exit Onan. > > Judah then told Tamar to wait until his youngest son Shelah was >grown, whereupon she would get to marry him. He grew up, but no >marriage occurred. >Tamar, knowing full well that she was being cheated out of the >opportunity for motherhood, played the role of a harlot and fooled >Judah into impregnating her. > > This was a bit unconventional, but even Judah later realized he >had acted incorrectly and Tamar was justified in what she had done. > > The custom of having a brother marry his deceased brother's wife >made very good sense to the ancient Hebrews. And other cultures have similar practices (cf. niyoga: in the Vedic tradition, the doctrine allowing a woman whose husband is impotent, sterile, or dead to form a temporary sexual union with another man), but the levirate tradition has another motivation (below). >Producing children >played a key role in their culture, and it made no sense at all to >have a young woman of child-bearing age spending years unable to >produce children simply because she was widowed. Hence the order to >Onan to do his duty by his people and religion by marrying Tamar and >producing children. All true, but I argue in my paper that there's another motive that explains why if Tamar couldn't get Omar to fulfill his obligation under levirate (i.e. brother-in-law) law, it made sense for her to seduce Judah rather than some random stranger who took her fancy (as in the niyoga practice mentioned above). That is, Onan's children would have passed on (some of) the family DNA, given the genes he shared with brother Er. And absent that possibility, Tamar (intuitively?) recognized that her next best bet for maintaining her husband's line would then be via her father-in-law, Judah. This then connects to the "spitten image" as a marker of paternity, which is why in the Deuteronomy version of the levirate law (Deut. 25: 7-10) a man who opts out of his obligation a la Onan gets his face spat in by his sister-in-law. Note the reference to "perpetuating one's brother's name in Israel". =========== And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the elders, and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.' Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, 'I do not wish to take her,' then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, 'So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.' And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off. =========== Well, it beats being slain by the Lord and becoming a namesake for Dorothy Parker's parrot. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 21:01:31 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:01:31 EDT Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: In a message dated 7/20/2002 1:59:58 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > >Ed Keer said: >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > ~~~~~ >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. >A. Murie How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym of "berry". >> BURY pronounced to rhyme with FURRY is common in New Jersey and probably elsewhere. The Midlands pronunciation of BURY in England was (is?) a rhyme with FURRY also, which I assume accounts for the historical variability in the US as well. The Old English ancestor of the modern word was BYRGAN, with a front rounded vowel, which unrounded in various ways in Middle English, depending on the geography. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 22:12:44 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:12:44 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <191.a1b1ec5.2a6b29ab@aol.com> Message-ID: At 05:01 PM 7/20/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/20/2002 1:59:58 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > > >Ed Keer said: > >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from > >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry > >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > > ~~~~~ > >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've > >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" > >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year > >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing > >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah > >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. > >A. Murie > >How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation >for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym >of "berry". >> > >BURY pronounced to rhyme with FURRY is common in New Jersey and probably >elsewhere. The Midlands pronunciation of BURY in England was (is?) a rhyme >with FURRY also, which I assume accounts for the historical variability in >the US as well. The Old English ancestor of the modern word was BYRGAN, with >a front rounded vowel, which unrounded in various ways in Middle English, >depending on the geography. I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my parents' generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably through schooling in "proper" English. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 22:44:44 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:44:44 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: Labov's TELSUR map shows laxing before /l/ to be pushing into Ohio from both east and west (and somewhat less so from south of the Ohio River, as I recall). My Dayton students have it, and I hear "available" as well as both "sell" and "sale" with /E/ in SE Ohio. I frequently hear laxing before /g/ also, but it may not be in the local speech yet; I hear it from students who are probably from outside the region, based on other features in their sound systems (university radio announcers and the like). Specifically, I've heard 'Craig' as 'Kregg' often, and The Hague as 'the Hegg' at least twice. I doubt there's confusion with 'Greg'. At 01:09 AM 7/20/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: > >>This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >>the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >>Pittsburgh's "Stillers") > >Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , >and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly >thereafter. > >Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] >conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have >in )? > >Cheers, >Scott > >_____________________________________________________________ >Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator > >sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com >http://www.spanishtranslator.org >_____________________________________________________________ >"Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale >murderers." > -- Leo Tolstoy From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 23:15:03 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:15:03 -0400 Subject: The Pierian spring In-Reply-To: <151.111acf21.2a69e681@aol.com> Message-ID: At 06:02 PM 7/19/2002 -0400, Jim Landau wrote: >In a message dated 07/19/2002 4:09:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test > > words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed > > schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different > > matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. > >Having no training in phonetics, I know better than to touch the Pierian >spring of IPA. That's why I have been giving rhymes, in hopes of not being >ambiguous. > >For me the first syllable of "color" rhymes with cull, dull, gull, hull, >lull, mull, null, sully, and skull. If that doesn't help, then it is the >vowel as in Hun, Khun, Kun, nun, run, sun, ton, won, and of course pun. >Pronouncing "color" as /'cUl-'r/ (that is, with the /U/ of pull, wood, good, >etc.) sounds very odd to my ears. I assumed you meant "color" as in cull, dull, gull, etc.; I have this vowel too (not so SE Ohio, where it usually rhymes with my Northern "collar"). >I really have no idea what the usual pronunciation of "wash" might be in >Louisville, Kentucky. Obvously my family or somebody I learned from said >/warsh/ with a vowel somewhere near that of "arm". Living here in the >Northeast, I'm often asked where my Southern accent is. I think I have faint >traces of such, particullarly in the word "Southern", which I pronounce as >/suth-'n/ (/u/ as in, well, color), dropping most or all of the /r/. Now, >if I drop a fair number of /r/s, why should I insert a superfluous /r/ in >"wash"? Intrusive /r/ here in SE Ohio would produce a vowel as in "warm," not "arm" (as others noted too). From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 21 03:47:38 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:47:38 -0700 Subject: "meanderthal" Message-ID: Laurence: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: "meanderthal" > An intermittently blend, and evidently not a brand-spanking-new word, > but still relatively new. I first encountered it in a piece in the > Times earlier this week... > > > The New York Times > July 16, 2002, Tuesday > SECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk > HEADLINE: Think You Own the Sidewalk?; Etiquette by New York > Pedestrians Is Showing a Strain > > BYLINE: By MARC SANTORA > The average New York City fast walker does not have to get stuck > behind a pack of mall walkers to grow sour. A single person moving at > a slow clip-clop can be enough. There is even a word for this > slowpoke: meanderthal. An Internet dictionary of slang defines him > as "an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of > another individual who is in a bit of a hurry." A couple of years ago, I was doing a search for certain kinds of websites, and attempted to type "neanderthal" to get some hits. I was off by one letter, and came up with some "Meanderthal" websites! I'm not making this up! I don't know when this word was first coined, but it's been around for *at least* 2-3 years. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:25:08 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:25:08 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 2002 to 20 Jul 2002 (#2002-176) In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Date sent: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:00:11 -0400 Send reply to: American Dialect Society From: Automatic digest processor Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 2002 to 20 Jul 2002 (#2002- 176) To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:58:11 EDT > From: Fritz Juengling > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > In a message dated 7/19/02 3:37:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > > > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax > > vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe > > Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with > > that.) > > When I was in grad school, I had two buddies named Greg, one from > Indiana and the other from Utah. Our prof was speaking to the Hoosier > one day and called him grEg which he corrected to Grayg, i.e. [gre:g]. > The other Greg agreed with that pronunciation. Both seemed a little > put off with 'grEg.' I have always rhymed Greg, leg, egg, beg with > Craig--with [e:] or even [ei], definitely not [E]. For me, egg and leg don't rhyme with Greg and beg; they do rhyme with Haig. (I'm from Ulster County NY, in the Hudson Valley Dialect area. Rod Serling -- born in Broome County, which adjoins Ulster County -- has no accent to my ear. So I can truthfully say that my dialect is on the original Twilight Zone.) From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:40:49 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:40:49 -0500 Subject: The city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) > > In a message dated 07/19/2002 7:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > > > OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" > > for > > NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James > > Blish's "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). > > The only place I ever heard "two names twice" was in Blish's _Earthman > Come Home_, which is the third volume of the Cities in Flight series. My memory says "What city has the same name twice?" > Blish was not much given to inserting wisecracks in his writing, I recall, from Cities in Flight, a substance called polybathroomflourine because of its hexagonal structure. [For those who don't get the reference -- hexagonal bathroom tiles used to be very common, at least in New York City.) I suspect there are other wisecracks which I missed. so I > guessed that it was an old New York riddle that Blish (who I think > worked in Madison Avenue) had heard. Blish was a native New Yorker. He did indeed work in the advertising industry. > There are only 2 Blish wisecracks that I can remember. Both are > obscure puns, made even more obscure by not being in English. One was > from the Cities in Flight series---one of the first cities to go > flying away was "Gravitogorsk", punning on the (real) city of > Magnitogorsk. The other was in _The Night Shapes_, where a Latin > teacher had an affair with a student. "Together they studied all the > conjugations of _amo_". > > > Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed > > all along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up > > I have no evidence either way as to whether Blish invented it, so your > original assumption may be right. Blish's sense of humor was > sufficeintly recondite that he could have invented it himself. > From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:52:57 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:52:57 -0500 Subject: more on James Blish In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) > >> Now for an interesting piece of Blish trivia. His "Year 2018" > contains an acid and unflattering portrait of an FBI director who is > obviously modelled on J. Edgar Hoover---then alive and at the height > of his reputation. Randall Garrett wrote a potboiler "The Hunting > Lodge" which among other tired stereotypes had a benign and farsighted > FBI director. I'm not sure "benign" is the word for a man who's ordering the killing of near-immortals with too much political power. Farsighted, yes -- he says that he himself will need to be eliminated at some future time. > This says a lot about those two writers, doesn't it? > Not quite, because Blish later wrote about Garrett, "there is imbedded > in Mr. Garrett's several million words of trash one superb story ("The > Hunting Lodge")". (William Atheling, Jr (pseudonym for James Blish) > "The Issue at Hand", Chicago: Advent Publisher, 1964, page 31n.) From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Sun Jul 21 09:58:33 2002 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 05:58:33 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/20/2002 08:58, Dennis R. Preston wrote the following: >What makes me think /E/-/e/ conflation is related to /I/-/i/ >conflation (and /u/-/U/ as well), at least before /l/, is the fact >that, at least in our tapes of people from such areas... Of course -- the old gather-empirical-data-and-analyze-it trick! Gets 'em every time! Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "During World War II, Congress officially recognized the pledge and changed its accompanying salute from an outstretched arm that resembled Hitler’s favored salute to the current right hand over the heart." -- Time, January 2002 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 13:44:31 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:44:31 -0400 Subject: The city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <3D3A0311.11411.26D324@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dan Goodman wrote: #I recall, from Cities in Flight, a substance called #polybathroomflourine because of its hexagonal structure. [For those uo #who don't get the reference -- hexagonal bathroom tiles used to be #very common, at least in New York City.) I suspect there are other #wisecracks which I missed. An explosive with the interesting property of blasting out in a plane, so that it could effectively cut through something without causing significant damage on either side of the cut. To me, the description of the molecular structure and the name immediately evoked the bathrooms in my grandparents' apartment, where I lived for much of my childhood. -- Mark A. Mandel From mssmith at BOONE.NET Sun Jul 21 13:58:23 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:58:23 -0400 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see this term as insulting and derogative. What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? Susan Dean Gilbert mssmith at boone.net Susan Dean Gilbert mssmith at boone.net Go to your bosom Knock there Ask your heart what it doth know -Wm. Shakespeare From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 21 14:22:57 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:22:57 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: Susan Dean Gilbert said: >> Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see this term as insulting and derogative. What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? Susan Dean Gilbert << The answer is emphatically No -- _picnic_ entered English through a German term for a European custom of the 18th cent. which in French was called _pique-nique_. The French rhyming combination is said to be of unknown origin by etyms I've checked (SOED, OED, RHDU). The "pick" origin theory is false, as the expression entered English from foreign sources. However, as a folk etym, the belief may be widespread. It reminds me of the false analysis of _niggardly_ that was such a controversy a few years ago. Similar is the supposed Native American origin of _OK_, which Woodrow Wilson championed, but which Allen Walker Read showed to be totally false. Of course, lots of folks don't let etymology stand in the way of their story or their ax-grinding. Arguments based on etymology are often widely ignored. Frank Abate From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 14:23:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Susan Dean Gilbert wrote: #Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida #B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. #Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to #be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of #"picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat #around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see #this term as insulting and derogative. If _Smithsonian_ published that without comment, they ought to be ashamed of themselves for spreading falsehood and promoting ignorance. It takes no deeper research than the Oxford English Dictionary to find the word traced back to about 1800 "as an English institution" [i.e., in England -- not the US], to 1748 in English with reference to foreign countries, and to French in 1692!! I will give only the earliest citation: 1748 Chesterfield, Letter to Son (in Germany, apparently Berlin): 29 Oct., I like the description of your _Pic-nic_; where, I take it for granted, that your cards are only to break the formality of a circle. The definition for this period is "A fashionable social entertainment in which each person present contributed a share of the provisions". -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 21 14:41:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:41:46 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Susan Dean Gilbert wrote: > >#Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida >#B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. >#Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to >#be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of >#"picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat >#around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see >#this term as insulting and derogative. > >If _Smithsonian_ published that without comment, they ought to be >ashamed of themselves for spreading falsehood and promoting ignorance. >It takes no deeper research than the Oxford English Dictionary to find >the word traced back to about 1800 "as an English institution" [i.e., in >England -- not the US], to 1748 in English with reference to foreign >countries, and to French in 1692!! I will give only the earliest >citation: > >1748 Chesterfield, Letter to Son (in Germany, apparently Berlin): > 29 Oct., I like the description of your _Pic-nic_; where, I take it for >granted, that your cards are only to break the formality of a circle. > >The definition for this period is "A fashionable social entertainment in >which each person present contributed a share of the provisions". > This is one of the classic etymythologies, which--like other myths--refuses to die because it satisfies a cultural need. Here's a bit more from the files (2000) http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.htm from a posting circulated on the Internet in 1999 (note the reference to the Smithsonian): ===================== This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute. Although not taught in American learning institutions and literature, it is noted in most Black history professional circles and literature that the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering. There would be music and a "picnic." ("Nic" being the white acronym for "nigger.") Scenes of this were depicted in the movie "Rosewood." We should choose to use the word "barbecue" or "outing" instead of the word "picnic." Please forward this e-mail to all of your family and friends and let's educate our people. ==================== Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): Origins: Specious etymologies seem to be all the rage of late, and this wild claim about the word 'picnic' fits that trend. You'll be heartened to know 'picnic' has nothing to do with lynching Blacks (or anyone else, for that matter). The e-mailed "little known fact" quoted above is a hoax. And a mean-spirited one at that. The first documented appearance of the word 'picnic' in the English language occurred in 1748, almost 30 years before the United States of America was even a country. Our current word for alfresco dining comes from the 17th-century French word 'piquenique,' a term for casual indoor dining wherein each guest brought a dish to add to the repast, or the German 'picknick.' (These days, we call such a meal a 'potluck supper.') As for where the French got it from, it likely was created from joining the common form of the verb 'piquer' (meaning "to pick" or "peck") and a nonsense rhyming word coined to fit the first half of this new term. By the 19th century, 'picnic' had come to mean what it does today -- an outdoor meal wherein the food is hauled by the diners to a pastoral spot where it is shared in an atmosphere of casual dining. At no time did the execution of anyone play any part in how the word came to us. One has to wonder at the workings of the mind of someone who'd invent this spurious "pick a nigger" derivation and then set it loose on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is -- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an "outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY decided to publicize the From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 21 16:45:55 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:45:55 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn quoted, in discussing the etymythology from "pick": >> from a posting circulated on the Internet in 1999 (note the reference to the Smithsonian): ===================== This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute. Although not taught in American learning institutions and literature, it is noted in most Black history professional circles and literature that the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering. There would be music and a "picnic." ("Nic" being the white acronym for "nigger.") Scenes of this were depicted in the movie "Rosewood." We should choose to use the word "barbecue" or "outing" instead of the word "picnic." Please forward this e-mail to all of your family and friends and let's educate our people. << This reminds me of the Black History "fact" that Cleopatra was black. She was, in actual fact, a Greek whose family hailed from Macedonia originally, and was the dynasty that took charge in Egypt after its conquest by Alexander the Great and the later rule of his Ptolemaic successors. But still one sees Cleopatra depicted here and there as black, and spoken about as such. One noted such occurrence was in a video of Michael Jackson's -- not the usual sort of place for history, but no doubt very widely circulated and remembered still. After that, it is hard to pry this false notion out of the heads of many who have not studied this period of Egyptian history with some perspective and from contemporary sources. Frank Abate From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 16:51:47 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:51:47 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this particular passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is portrayed below is just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. Picnic is mentioned only once, and then only while writing about crowds gathering for a lynching, nothing about the etymology or racial connotations of the word. It's not in the online version of the article, either. I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it pickynicky--no idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are pickynicky parks, sounds fun). As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in pickaninny (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a foreign word, the Spanish pequeño (small child) , but which, unlike picnic, has a long history of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. Of course, Ida Wells out Rosa-Parked Rosa Parks by refusing to give up her seat on a Tennessee train in the 1880s. Her later crusade after the lynching of a friend's husband was the first organized public outcry against lynchings. But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather narrow view of the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many westerns. While I understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a person (with overt racial overtone outside of western movies), the article uses it for ANY extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a lot of terrible ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come across the term used outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled projection? |o| Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece |o| on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of |o| lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic |o| is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the |o| horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching |o| him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says |o| that today many African Americans see this term as insulting |o| and derogative. |o| What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did |o| picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? rhk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 16:59:34 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:59:34 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: #Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this #particular passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is #portrayed below is just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. [That's off my chest. End rant.] #I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the #British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it #pickynicky--no idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are #pickynicky parks, sounds fun). Hawai`ian is strictly (C)V, with no codas, so pikiniki would be a logical Hawai`ianization of English picnic; no French influence required. #As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in #pickaninny (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a #foreign word, the Spanish pequeño (small child) , but which, unlike #picnic, has a long history of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. -- Mark A. Mandel From mssmith at BOONE.NET Sun Jul 21 17:42:51 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Picnic Mea Culpa Message-ID: Ok. I re-read the article and even did a word search and I couldn't find it either. Weird. I could have sworn I read that information there. Maybe it was another journal. My apologies to Smithsonian and to the author. Susan Dean Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick H Kennerly" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Picnic > Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this particular > passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is portrayed below is > just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. Picnic is mentioned only > once, and then only while writing about crowds gathering for a lynching, > nothing about the etymology or racial connotations of the word. It's not in > the online version of the article, either. > > I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the > British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it pickynicky--no > idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are pickynicky parks, sounds > fun). > > As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in pickaninny > (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a foreign word, the > Spanish pequeño (small child) , but which, unlike picnic, has a long history > of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. > > Of course, Ida Wells out Rosa-Parked Rosa Parks by refusing to give up her > seat on a Tennessee train in the 1880s. Her later crusade after the > lynching of a friend's husband was the first organized public outcry against > lynchings. > > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather narrow view of > the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many westerns. While I > understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a person (with overt > racial overtone outside of western movies), the article uses it for ANY > extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible > dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a lot of terrible > ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come across the term used > outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And > who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled > projection? > > > |o| Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece > |o| on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of > |o| lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic > |o| is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the > |o| horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching > |o| him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says > |o| that today many African Americans see this term as insulting > |o| and derogative. > |o| What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did > |o| picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? > > > rhk > From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 21 17:40:02 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It's not in the online version of the article, either. The online version is an abstract of the article, not the article itself. > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather > narrow view of the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too > many westerns. While I understand it to be an extralegal mob > action to hang a person (with overt racial overtone outside of > western movies), the article uses it for ANY extralegal mob > killing based on race, making the terrible dragging-behind-a- > pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a > lot of terrible ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never > come across the term used outside of a hanging. What's the > etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And who was Lynch? > or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled > projection? The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is that it refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American Revolution. The earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to him. Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named Charles Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) for presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American Revolution. Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. The racial connotation is not original, but rather arose in the post-Civil War South. And as for metaphorical use of the term, Clarence Thomas referred to the Anita Hill hearings in Sep. 1991 before the Senate Judiciary cmte. as a "high-tech lynching for uppity blacks." I'm sure he wasn't the first to use it metaphorically. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 17:49:57 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:49:57 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the |o| [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] |o| ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, |o| learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. |o| [That's off my chest. End rant.] Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. After all, the Smithsonian magazine article in question begins with mention of a touring photo exhibition called Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America. Now, I haven't seen this exhibition but from the archival pictures I have seen from late 19th century American newspapers (and not just southern newspapers--remember that Kokomo, Indiana, was home of the second rising of the KKK), white folk picnicking at hangings in general and black lynchings in particular was not uncommon, so it's not too much of a leap of imagination to get from whites picnicking to picking a nigger to lynch--or to at least associating picnics and lynchings in the minds of blacks. Certainly oral histories of elderly southerner--both black and white in this particular case--like the one below from a special presentation called Remembering Jim Crow, make the association between whites picnicking and black lynchings, so it wasn't too long ago. http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/remembering/transcript.html Interestingly, I imagine that there's a lot emotional truth in this new use of Picnic, even if it's historically inaccurate. Unfortunately, I also imagine that it won't be long before we read lurid newspaper confessions where, after a brutal murder, the group was out on a picnic. rhk From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 21 18:00:51 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:00:51 -0700 Subject: Lynch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first came across the broader meaning of lynch in Japanese where rinchi is used that way. Webster's 1913 ed. (http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=lynch) says Lynch (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Lynched (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Lynching.] [See Note under Lynch law.] To inflict punishment upon, especially death, without the forms of law, as when a mob captures and hangs a suspected person. See Lynch law. In the second edition, the definition of inflicting punishment is dropped: to kill (an accused person) by mob action and without lawful trial, as by hanging, usually in defiance of local authority. Since the first meaning is being used today, perhaps this word has widened and narrowed in scope over the years, or its actual range of meaning gone unnoticed for several decades. My American Heritage third edition does not include the wider scope. How about newer dictionaries? Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Rick H Kennerly > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a > rather narrow view of > the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many > westerns. While I > understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a > person (with overt > racial overtone outside of western movies), the article > uses it for ANY > extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible > dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in > Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were > a lot of terrible > ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come > across the term used > outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of > lynch/lynched/lynching? And > who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a > right-angled > projection? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 21 20:50:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:50:07 -0400 Subject: No food in the Ukraine Message-ID: Greetings again from Odessa. I have an eight-hour ride to Yalta tomorrow (Monday)...There's not much to see in Odessa besides the steps and the opera house. NO FOOD IN THE UKRAINE Still no English-language Ukrainian cookbook available for sale anywhere. Nothing is easy. There are three people on this tour--me and a couple. Today in Odessa I had two tour guides--the 20-year-old "no slang in the Ukraine" student and a local tour guide (a woman who has lived here a long time). Despite this, I couldn't get any help getting anything done. For example, the student knows that I like to look at an English language menu. We're at a restaurant. I told him again. I told the other guide. I told the student again. Outside the restaurant: "Did you ask for an English language menu for me?" "Yes." Pause. There's no other answer. "WELL, WHERE WAS IT?" "They wouldn't give it to you." Pause. Like pulling teeth with this guide. "Why wouldn't they give it to me?" "They don't want you to copy from the menu," was his answer. "You just ask for a menu! And they give it to you!" That scene was pretty bad, but not worse than when we went to the Odessa library. The kid said that I needed to show them my passport. My passport was taken by the hotel--as he knew! The director was off on Sunday; did I have an appointment with the director? No, I didn't speak with the Ukrainian library director! I've never been here before! There are two native Ukrainians here! You go in, you check to see the oldest cookbooks they have in the card catalog, and you walk back out and tell me! Does that happen? Of course not! I get the phone number of the Odessa library director. I can call him myself. JEWISH ODESSA Odessa began in the 1790s. It was made a duty-free port. Catherine wanted it populated quickly, and they took everybody from all over. Jews came there quite early; a hospital was established in 1806. By the 1910s, there were 65 synagogues. My local tour guide said that Odessa might have been one-third Jewish. Over 65,000 Jews from Odessa were killed by the Nazis. I walked into the local synagogue. No one spoke English very well. I asked an easy question--any English-language books on the history of Jewish life in Odessa or the Ukraine? No. My tour guide said there's a book called ODESSA DAYS in Ukrainian, but I can't locate that, either. So much for tracing "bagels" in this place. UKRAINIAN FOOD & COOKBOOKS The cookbook problem: the earliest Ukrainian cookbook in ANY language in the LOC or the NYPL is from 1951. The popular TRADITIONAL UKRAINIAN COOKERY (1957) by Surella Stechichin is widely available, but surely there's something before 1950, before 1900, before 1850? In the Ukraine? Ukrainian food influenced America not only in New York City, but also northwestern North Dakota. The MERCER COUNTY HISTORICAL SOCIETY COOKBOOK (Google that) has a variety of Ukrainian foods. There's a pocket of Odessa immigrants in North Dakota! The best web site I could find is: www.ukraine-today.com/culture/food/food.shtml I checked the NYPL catalog. If I'm not more successful on my return to Kiev on Thursday, I fly home on Friday I'll try to record and antedate Ukraine food with the following NYPL books on Saturday: Edward Morton, TRAVELS IN RUSSIA, AND A RESIDENCE AT ST. PETERSBURG AND ODESSA IN THE YEARS 1827-1829 (1830) Karl Koch, DIE KRIM UND ODESSA (1854) Joachim Tarnopol, NOTICES HISTORIQUES ET CARACTISTIQUES SUR LES ISRAELITES D'ODESSA (1855) Steven Zilperstein, THE JEWS OF ODESSA: A CULTURAL HISTORY 1794-1881 ODESSA PROVERB: The local woman guide said that it's an Odessa proverb not to confuse Bibel with Babel and Gogol with Gugul. (Sorry for spelling errors here.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 21:00:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:00:47 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [Mark Mandel] #|o| That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the #|o| [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] #|o| ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, #|o| learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. #|o| [That's off my chest. End rant.] # #Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the #question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, but I'm relieved that, as far as the charge and the present evidence are concerned, the _Smithsonian_ magazine is not contributing to it. -- Mark A. Mandel From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Jul 21 21:17:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:17:23 -0400 Subject: Lynch Message-ID: Another example of the extended meaning is in the murder of the two IDF reservists who got lost in Ramallah, sought refuge in a police station, where they were killed with knives, the bodies later thrown from a window onto the street. The news reports referred to these murders as lynchings. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 21 23:01:27 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:01:27 -0700 Subject: Lynch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, what I should have said is that the meaning seems to have changed as to whether it necessarily means hanging... Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > > Lynch (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Lynched (?); p. pr. & vb. n. > Lynching.] [See Note under Lynch law.] To inflict punishment upon, > especially death, without the forms of law, as when a mob captures > and hangs a suspected person. See Lynch law. > > Since the first meaning is being used today, perhaps this word has > widened and narrowed in scope over the years, or its > actual range of > meaning gone unnoticed for several decades. My American Heritage > third edition does not include the wider scope. > > How about newer dictionaries? From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Jul 21 22:59:31 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:59:31 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: > > I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my parents' > generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably > through schooling in "proper" English. > Beverly-- That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded 'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to 1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or "Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone with either of those two names, anyway). My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was [lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. -- Millie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Jul 21 23:35:11 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:35:11 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2310a$466edda0$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your English is more proper than mine?) I doubt that it had anything at all to do with Norwegian immigrants, any more than with any other immigrants. In fact, I'm quite sure that other regions (Northern?) have bury-furry too--and logically the Philly-Baltimore area has it, since American, Lower Merian, etc. rhyme with Murray there. Walt Wolfram, where are you when we need you?! Again, I think Craig-as-Kregg is not lexically limited. Someone else mentioned "plague" as "plegg"; I've heard that too, besides The Hague as Hegg. On the other hand, Lars with a devoiced final consonant is a holdover from Scandinavian languages, but that too is changing with the younger generations. Ditto with Oslo, where the medial fricative is also devoiced in Norway but not here. At 05:59 PM 7/21/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my >parents' > > generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably > > through schooling in "proper" English. > > > >Beverly-- > >That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded >'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do >with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to >1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans >I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years >old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on >this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type >of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. >Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you >pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no >problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or >"Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was >introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not >really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have >never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone >with either of those two names, anyway). > >My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in >Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is >named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was >[lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and >responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and >responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could >not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. > >Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking >about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" >today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] >at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and >pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my >experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how >you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: >names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not >necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. >-- Millie Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 23:40:52 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:40:52 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| |o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in some circles. rhk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:51:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:51:49 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [Mark Mandel] #|o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, # #But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've #nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we #don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful #for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just #because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in #some circles. I'm not sure what you're saying that we don't know. We do know that some people believe this etymythology. I thought I had seen a statement in this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive; if I remember wrong, please correct me. What should I not be upset about? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:55:39 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:55:39 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #>Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've #>always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" #>--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year #>she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing #>that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah #>Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. #>A. Murie # #How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation #for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym #of "berry". Is that "furry"* with rhotic schwa (or rhotic turned-epsilon) or with /^/ (wedge)? I have the latter vowel in "hurry", the former in "furry". * none of those should be in slashes, since they're plainly not phonemic representations -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:56:41 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:56:41 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 10:36 AM -0700 7/20/02, Benjamin Barrett wrote: #>The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon #>as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. #> #Yup, once each by the twin naming-wallahs visiting from India. Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 00:03:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:03:26 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry's quotation from the Snopes cite was truncated, at least as I received it. Not really important, as I'm sure I can find the whole thing by searching Snopes for "picnic". -- Mark A. Mandel On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: [...] #Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): [...] #on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't #deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended #by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: # # Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of #SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie #Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said #this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to #gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English #professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism #than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually #comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which #everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, #nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is #-- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an #"outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY #decided to publicize the ========= POST ENDS HERE ======= From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 01:13:55 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:13:55 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:03 PM -0400 7/21/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Larry's quotation from the Snopes cite was truncated, at least as I >received it. Not really important, as I'm sure I can find the whole >thing by searching Snopes for "picnic". > >-- Mark A. Mandel Oops, sorry. I also seem to have misspelled Mikkelson's name. I'll fill it in below, in its proper place (including the moral Mikkelson draws from it all). The excerpt from the National Post article, i.e. the anecdote from SUNY Albany, contains the reference you mentioned in your earlier post, attributed to Zaheer Mustafa below. (That is, "I thought I had seen a statement in this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive".) This isn't that different a conclusion from the one drawn by the mayoral aide in the "niggardly" flap--something along the lines of "I know the word doesn't mean what they thought it meant, but I should have been more careful anyway because its use offended them". And after all, you CAN insult someone inadvertently. larry > >On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > [...] > >#Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): > > [...] >#on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't >#deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended >#by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: ># ># Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of >#SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie >#Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said >#this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to >#gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English >#professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism >#than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually >#comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which >#everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, >#nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is >#-- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an >#"outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY >#decided to publicize the event without using any noun to describe it. [Now back to Mikkelson herself] There's a very real downside to spouting hoax definitions just because they push a few buttons: It makes those doing the yelling look uneducated and uneducable. Those who run with their emotions instead of using their heads end up doing the racists' work for them by making themselves appear to be foolish shadow-jumpers incapable of cracking open any random dictionary before yelling that the sky is falling. This popeyed caricature image is not something one wishes to foster if racism is to be defeated; it merely serves to reinforce the white supremacists' claim that blacks are inherently inferior. Barbara "nitpicnic'ing" Mikkelson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 01:23:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:23:09 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:55 PM -0400 7/21/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Is that "furry"* > with rhotic schwa (or rhotic turned-epsilon) > or > with /^/ (wedge)? > >I have the latter vowel in "hurry", the former in "furry". > >* none of those should be in slashes, since they're plainly not phonemic >representations > I have the same distinction and I think for me it has to do with morpheme and/or syllable boundaries (something like the different vowel rules for "hammer" and "hamster"). So for instance I used to distinguish "curry" (with the wedge) from "cur-y" ('pertaining to a cur'), with the "furry" vowel. Others in the former group: Murray, scurry, surrey, worry. Another minimal pair: worry vs. whirry. And I suppose "hurry" vs. "Ben-Hur-y" or "Murray" vs. "myrrhy". But again, this ended up unstable and I now vacillate on those old wedge vowels. larry From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 01:34:50 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:34:50 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the > question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and that the word has its origin in this practice. But I haven't seen any evidence that anyone actually uses or ever used "picnic" as a racial slur or coded term for lynchings or other racist activities. I haven't even seen anyone claim that the word is used in a racist manner, only that it should be avoided because of its (false) origin. Its usage seems to be universally and unambiguously innocent of racism. > Certainly oral histories of elderly southerner--both black > and white in this particular case--like the one below from > a special presentation called Remembering Jim Crow, make > the association between whites picnicking and black > lynchings, so it wasn't too long ago. > http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/remembering/transcript.html Note that the statements made about picnicking at the sites of lynchings in the NPR feature are not exactly "oral histories." They are simply historical, not personal, claims made Amelia Robinson, a long-time leader in the civil rights movement (at least I think it's her, NPR doesn't give her credentials). She does not claim to have witnessed such events, nor does she give any facts about when, where, and how often these picnics took place. She simply states that such events did occur. (Note that superficially it appears as if several people are making the claims, but a careful reading shows that the different voices are all Robinson's, edited to provide a slightly different phrasing each time.) Also, in the piece Robinson uses "picnic" to refer to days blacks spent on the town: "Because they got paid on Fridays, they'd come to town on Saturdays and spend the money. That was their attitude. So, black people, would see, this was like a picnic to them. They would see their friends, their relatives. They'd make acquaintances and what not." It does not appear that Robinson herself associates use of the word "picnic" with lynching or other evils of racism. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Mon Jul 22 03:55:57 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:55:57 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: Sorry, I should have maybe put a "smiley face" after the hickish comment. And no, of course I don't think my English is more "proper" than yours. All I know is that in The Cities, where and when I grew up, and now, whenever I go back (which is often), I have never noticed a native of the Cities saying "burry" for "bury". I tend to notice stuff like that! ;-) I was not saying people who say it that way ARE "hickish", but that the listener attitudinal switch flips to that (+ rural, +older generation). It actually makes me smile to recognize it when it happens, in spite of years of meeting people with all sorts of accents from all over, given that I "know better" than to make such assumptions. It is still hard to turn off. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: pronuncation of BURY > Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. > since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you > recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your And, I am also a (proud, thank you) Norwegian-American whose ancestors moved to Southern Minnesota first (from Norway), before moving up the Cities fifty to seventy years ago. I just was wondering out loud if that Norwegian language influence being stronger in the more rural areas might have influenced that conflation hanging around longer, that's all. Please don't report me to Sons of Norway. I didn't mean it that way! :-) From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 22 04:36:49 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:36:49 -0500 Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota In-Reply-To: <20020720040205.500134E47@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Saturday the 13th, an ice cream social's refreshments included "soda" -- in what once was solid "pop" territory. One of the sodas listed was Mountain Due. I mentioned this to one of the people who were selling refreshments. She said that her daughter had made the sign, and she herself had apparently decided it didn't matter. Note: the event was in Bryant Square Park, put on by the CARAG Neighorhood Organization. From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 22 04:46:19 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:46:19 -0500 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <20020722040008.AE5F2583D@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 > From: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: Picnic > The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is that it > refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante > tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American Revolution. The > earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to him. > > Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named Charles > Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) for > presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American Revolution. > Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not remembered, or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to hanging for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he did so himself. From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 05:38:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:38:36 -0700 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <3D3B47CB.7552.198504@localhost> Message-ID: > The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not remembered, > or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to hanging > for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he > did so himself. Tradition has it that Mayor James Lynch Fitzstephen of Galway, Ireland allegedly hanged his own son for a murder in 1493. This incident (if true) has no apparent etymological connection to the verb "to lynch." The first appearance of the word is over 300 years later in the US. I am sure there are other Lynches from various places and times who had something to do with a hanging and also failed to lend their name to posterity. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 22 08:41:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:41:41 +0100 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to where it might have come from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 09:55:19 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 05:55:19 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001201c2311f$f9356b10$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: |o| |o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of |o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and |o| that the word has its origin in this practice. The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about this use of the word, then it can't be true. True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. ||o| |o| Note that the statements made about picnicking at the sites of |o| lynchings in |o| the NPR feature are not exactly "oral histories." They are simply |o| historical, not personal, claims made Amelia Robinson, a |o| long-time leader in |o| the civil rights movement (at least I think it's her, NPR |o| doesn't give her |o| credentials). Actually, I remember hearing the series broadcast in several installments. This is excepts of a series of oral histories and Robinson's voice was seldom used. rhk From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 10:20:39 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:20:39 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| I'm not sure what you're saying that we don't know. We do know that some |o| people believe this etymythology. I thought I had seen a statement in |o| this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that |o| its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive; |o| if I remember wrong, please correct me. What should I not be upset |o| about? |o| I don't think anybody said that on this thread. What I'm saying is that this version of picnic had to come from somewhere and that we don't know where, but that it would be interesting to track it down. Either it's use was 1. coined by some writer for the movie Rosewood, 2. it was a college prank at SUNY or the Smithsonian, or 3. is below the radar screens of etymologists. As I touched on in another post, Mark Twain claims to have inserted the H in Jesus H. Christ as a prank while an apprentice printer, but it gained currency. Is it important? Is it even true? Who knows? But it's good to know and to record. Same thing with this twist in picnic. After all, you don't have to hang around word folk very long to find plenty of examples of words or phrases referencing something that didn't happen or something that happened differently than the way it is enshrined in the current usage. As etymologist, one would think that it would be interesting to be present, as it were, at the birth of a usage that gains currency and to be able to record that first instance of it and where it sprang up. That's the only point I'm making: we know it's beginning and we know where picnic stands today, but there's a piece of this that is missing. Some examples (not to single out homosexuals but in my caffeine deprived state this morning these terms are within easy reach): Gay, Out and Outing, and the word I've given up trying to rescue as it slips into permanent misuse, hopefully. rhk From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 22 11:02:25 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 04:02:25 -0700 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <3D3B47CB.7552.198504@localhost> Message-ID: I grew up in Lynchburg, VA, named for its founder, John Lynch. But I received many jokes about it in college when people asked, "Is that where blacks were lynched?" --- Dan Goodman wrote: > > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 > > From: Dave Wilton > > Subject: Re: Picnic > > The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is > that it > > refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante > > tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American > Revolution. The > > earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to > him. > > > > Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named > Charles > > Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) > for > > presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American > Revolution. > > Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. > > The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not > remembered, > or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to > hanging > for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he > did so himself. ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 12:11:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:11:47 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020721191201.00b14ad0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> /larz/. dInIs >Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. >since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you >recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your >English is more proper than mine?) I doubt that it had anything at all to >do with Norwegian immigrants, any more than with any other immigrants. In >fact, I'm quite sure that other regions (Northern?) have bury-furry >too--and logically the Philly-Baltimore area has it, since American, Lower >Merian, etc. rhyme with Murray there. Walt Wolfram, where are you when we >need you?! > >Again, I think Craig-as-Kregg is not lexically limited. Someone else >mentioned "plague" as "plegg"; I've heard that too, besides The Hague as >Hegg. On the other hand, Lars with a devoiced final consonant is a >holdover from Scandinavian languages, but that too is changing with the >younger generations. Ditto with Oslo, where the medial fricative is also >devoiced in Norway but not here. > >At 05:59 PM 7/21/2002 -0500, you wrote: >> > >>> I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my >>parents' >>> generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably >>> through schooling in "proper" English. >>> >> >>Beverly-- >> >>That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded >>'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do >>with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to >>1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans >>I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years >>old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on >>this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type >>of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. >>Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you >>pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no >>problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or >>"Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was >>introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not >>really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have >>never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone >>with either of those two names, anyway). >> >>My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in >>Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is >>named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was >>[lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and >>responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and >>responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could >>not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. >> >>Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking >>about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" >>today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] >>at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and >>pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my >>experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how >>you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: >>names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not >>necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. >>-- Millie > >Beverly Olson Flanigan >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Ohio University >Athens, OH 45701 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 12:18:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:18:15 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An excellent point. Some etymologists appear to believe that the science is limited to "ultimates." I wonder why they ever mess with Germanic and Latin-Greek bsses when they could just run up the reconstructed PIE morphs. But that would not lead us down the often exciting trails of words, ones which include numerous folk etymologies being responsible for the current "meaning" (or even shape) of a word. More sociolinguistically appropriate, of course, is the fact that not all words have meant the same thing to all groups, a pretty common lexicographical fact, I would think, since we have dictionaries based on all sorts of group memberships and since leakage of those meanings to out-groups is common - African-American to the wider speech community being just one very good example. dInIs >|o| >|o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, > > >But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've >nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we >don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful >for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just >because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in >some circles. > >rhk -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 13:02:02 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:02:02 EDT Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/02 4:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > where it might have come from? You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following is a guess: Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half a century has been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given expert in math, physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover reprints in her or his home library. - Jim Landau From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 22 13:04:49 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:04:49 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, for me, bury and berry rhyme, both pronounced as "burry". Ed > Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of > these divisions? I've > always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of > my kids says "burry" > --like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have > picked up during the year > she spent at school in England at age 12, though I > don't remember hearing > that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR > news readers (Norah > Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always > sounds odd to me. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 13:15:58 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:15:58 EDT Subject: Haman's fritters Message-ID: Not "hamantaschen" but still interesting. _The Jewish Manual_ "edited by a Lady [pseudonym for Lady Judith Montefiore]" London: T. & W. Boone, 1846. Reprinted by Nightingale Books, New York, 1983, ISBN 0-911389-00-8. page 123: HAMAN'S FRITTERS. Take two spoonful [sic] of the best Florence oil, scald it, and when hot, mix with it one pound of flour, add four beaten eggs and make it into a paste, roll it out thin and cut it into pieces about four inches square, let them dry and fry them in oil; the moment the pieces are put in [page 124] the frying pan, they must be drawn up with two silver skewers into different forms according to fancy; a few miniutes is sufficient to fry them, they should be crisp when done. - James A. Landau From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 14:00:16 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:00:16 -0700 Subject: Steak: ever pronounced other than "stake?" Message-ID: I've run into a couple of Norwegian teachers who insist that steak is pronounced "steek" in places they've visited in the U.S. Are they correct, and if so where are these places? From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 14:08:29 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:08:29 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/21/2002 7:56:49 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? >> Well, one could certainly argue that "New York City, New York," was not NAMED twice, just that there is a repetition of the city name and the state name compounded by an optional deletion. Walla Walla, on the other hand, was actually named "twice." So "New York City, New York" is really no different from "Iowa City, Iowa." (Except that people don't talk funny in Iowa City.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:24:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:24:18 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [attribution lost:] #|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of #|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and #|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. # #The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at #lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about #this use of the word, then it can't be true. By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't think anyone is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called "picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main question is whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. # True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how #that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. "It" being the etymythology? To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the symbol sequence "IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being "Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 14:30:38 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:30:38 -0400 Subject: FW: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: RE what Ron B says (copied below), "New York City" is an alternate form used to distinguish the city from the state. Officially, the name of the city is "New York", as used by the US Postal Service and by the FIPS-55-DC3 file, the latter of which is the placename file for the US that is official in the eyes of the federal government. New York, the city, includes all 5 boroughs. The borough of Manhattan is coterminous with the county of New York. (Each of the 5 boroughs is coterminous with its county.) If you are speaking of the area that is the borough of Manhattan, it can be said that it is named THREE times -- the city, the county, and the state, each "New York". I believe this to be the only such place in the US. Frank Abate ********************* In a message dated 7/21/2002 7:56:49 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? >> Well, one could certainly argue that "New York City, New York," was not NAMED twice, just that there is a repetition of the city name and the state name compounded by an optional deletion. Walla Walla, on the other hand, was actually named "twice." So "New York City, New York" is really no different from "Iowa City, Iowa." (Except that people don't talk funny in Iowa City.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:31:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:31:20 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a #modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like #Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist #those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> #/larz/. Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:38:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:38:40 -0400 Subject: Steak: ever pronounced other than "stake?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Leif Knutsen wrote: #I've run into a couple of Norwegian teachers who insist that steak is #pronounced "steek" in places they've visited in the U.S. Are they correct, #and if so where are these places? I've never heard it. How likely is it that they misheard US [eI] as [i:]? -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 14:38:46 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:38:46 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its "complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history and social history will surely set us back. dInIs >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > > [attribution lost:] >#|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of >#|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and >#|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. ># >#The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at >#lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about >#this use of the word, then it can't be true. > >By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took >place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific >and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the >etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't think anyone >is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called >"picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main question is >whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited >in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. > ># True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how >#that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. > >"It" being the etymythology? > >To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the symbol sequence >"IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta >Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being >"Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a >written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) >graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. > >-- Mark A. Mandel -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 14:42:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:42:54 -0400 Subject: Lars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, I was speaking of the process among Norwegian language users in the US and of the speech communities of non-Norwegian speakers who they influenced and were influenced by. Your shortcut is surely the right one for English-speaking readers. dInIs >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >#Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a >#modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like >#Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist >#those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> >#/larz/. > >Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? > >I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than >necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area >in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, >long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the >default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. >Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. > >-- Mark A. Mandel -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 22 15:10:14 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:10:14 -0400 Subject: Picnic( Jesus H. Christ) Message-ID: Mark Mandel writes: >I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator"....... ~~~~~~ ....also popularly thought to mean "In Hoc Signo," I'm not sure why. A. Murie From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 15:36:08 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:36:08 -0400 Subject: FW: Picnic( Jesus H. Christ) Message-ID: RE the comments below, IHS also happens to be the first three letters of the Greek spelling/form for _Jesus_, which is sometimes mentioned in this connection. I did not know about the interpretation of IHS = In Hoc Signo. Perhaps relevant to these words is the story that when Constantine the Great, in 312, was about to fight the battle at Saxa Rubra (the Battle of the Mulvian Bridge) to clear the way to take Rome, he is said to have had a vision from God, who showed him a cross in the sky and said to him, "In hoc signo vinces" ('In this sign shall you conquer'). There are depictions of this vision, showing the cross with the words, so the connection could be from that. Frank Abate Mark Mandel writes: >I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator"....... ~~~~~~ ....also popularly thought to mean "In Hoc Signo," I'm not sure why. A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 16:18:01 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:18:01 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > |o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are > certainly a number of > |o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites > of lynchings and > |o| that the word has its origin in this practice. > > The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at > lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we > don't know about > this use of the word, then it can't be true. True or not, > however, I'd > think it interesting to know where & how that it got started, > like the H in > Jesus H Christ. I think there is little doubt that such incidents did occur. The question is how common were they? Were they common enough to create an actual association between the word "picnic" and lynchings in the minds of African Americans. Or is the association a recent and fanciful one, created in the minds of a few, connecting a horrifying but singular event with a false etymology, and then spread via email and fax? As for how it got started, it's probably hopeless to try and pin down the exact origin. (I've found references to the false etymology dating to 1993.) It probably started by someone making guess at an origin without looking it up in the dictionary. Perhaps the person was making a joke, one whose dark humor was understandably lost on listeners who took it for fact. There are lots of other examples. Other ethnic examples include the "whole nine yards" being the amount of cloth used to make a Scottish kilt or a 15th century Bristol merchant named Ameryk lending his name to a new continent or "OK" coming from the Greek "olla kalla." Someone, somewhere made a guess and ethnic pride keeps the false origin alive. But it is nothing but a factoid, one that does not affect usage of the word or phrase. As far as the attitude being "if we don't know about this use..., then it can't be true," I think the better way of stating it would be let us not make up speculative usages. First let's find evidence that the offensive connotation actually exists outside the forwarded emails and faxes that spread the false origin before we try to determine how it came to be. The NPR interview is a negative data point in this respect. Robinson describes the picnics at lynchings and then goes on to use "picnic" in another context, free of association with lynchings. Clearly, in her mind there is no racist or offensive connotation in "picnic." So far, what we've got is urban legend, not linguistics. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 16:25:00 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precisely. It's not my field, but I never viewed etymology as prescriptive but descriptive. Certainly the journey of language is at least as interesting as the vehicle, the individual word, itself. Perhaps it's because I'm more interested in ideas and connections than just definitions (a very Thomas Hobbes, kind of ideal). For instance, as an undergraduate we studied the Hawthorne Effect as a management tool, which came from the disciplines of both business and psychology (roughly, work conditions effects the outcome). However, after problems were discovered with the methodology in Hawthorne, then business dropped it and the social sciences amended the meaning of Hawthorne Effect to reflect the fact that you get the results you tell people you're watching for (polluting the experiment) and then along comes Tom Peters selling books to business telling them that "You get what you measure". Then tie all that together with, say, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to describe several phenomena in physics. After awhile certain aspects of Heisneberg are adopted by the social scientists (merely observing changes the result) to more or less replace Hawthorne in the social sciences. Somehow, it all seems interesting and interconnected to me. I guess it's just me, but the constant ebb and flow of meaning, the borrowing and coining as life bumps up against language is what etymology is all about. Perhaps we should just publish a final dictionary for all eternity and retire from the playing field. Rick |o| -----Original Message----- |o| From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf |o| Of Dennis R. Preston |o| Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 10:39 |o| To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU |o| Subject: Re: Picnic |o| |o| |o| How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") |o| for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, |o| denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our |o| knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to |o| say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its |o| "complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, |o| associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history |o| and social history will surely set us back. |o| |o| dInIs |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: |o| > |o| > [attribution lost:] |o| >#|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are |o| certainly a number of |o| >#|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites |o| of lynchings and |o| >#|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. |o| ># |o| >#The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at |o| >#lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we |o| don't know about |o| >#this use of the word, then it can't be true. |o| > |o| >By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took |o| >place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific |o| >and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the |o| >etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't |o| think anyone |o| >is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called |o| >"picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main |o| question is |o| >whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited |o| >in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. |o| > |o| ># True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how |o| >#that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. |o| > |o| >"It" being the etymythology? |o| > |o| >To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the |o| symbol sequence |o| >"IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta |o| >Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being |o| >"Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a |o| >written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) |o| >graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin |o| >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum |o| >Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. |o| > |o| >-- Mark A. Mandel |o| |o| -- |o| Dennis R. Preston |o| Professor of Linguistics |o| Department of Linguistics and Languages |o| 740 Wells Hall A |o| Michigan State University |o| East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA |o| Office - (517) 353-0740 |o| Fax - (517) 432-2736 |o| From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 16:33:04 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:33:04 -0700 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <17b.b991757.2a6d5c4a@aol.com> Message-ID: > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > where it might have come from? > > You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following > is a guess: The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? > Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half > a century has > been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and > scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given > expert in math, > physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover > reprints in her or > his home library. Good guess. Do they do medical books? Militating against it is the sense of troubleshooting consultant rather than written authority. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 20:33:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:33:33 -0400 Subject: Malodorant; Odessa-Mama, NYC-Papa Message-ID: Greetings from Yalta. I just had a pleasant, 10-hour ride from Odessa that featured one thunderstorm and one flat tire...Tomorrow (Tuesday) I tour the site of the famous 1945 Yalta meeting, plus the place where Chekhov wrote CHERRY ORCHARD. --------------------------------------------------------------- ODESSA NOTES GEM OF THE BLACK SEA--a nickname for Odessa. LITTLE ODESSA--the title of a 1995 film about Bright Beach, Brooklyn, NYC. The big Odessa immigration to NYC was in the 1970s. ODESSA-MAMA, NEW YORK-PAPA--My tour guide said that Odessa was also nicknamed Mama, where people were born. New York City was nicknamed Papa, as in "Come to Papa!" THE DAY OF HUMOR IN ODESSA (ODESA HUMORYNA)--April first (April Fool's Day). It's a big festival in the town. Odessa is known as the "humor capital of the Ukraine." I can't quickly find out when this tradition began; "April fools" pre-dates the founding of Odessa. ROMA-AMOR--another city, better known for being spelled backwards. --------------------------------------------------------------- MALODORANT "Malodorant" is not in the revised OED? Some interesting terms are in this article from TIME, and the DrudgeReport web page: Beyond the Rubber Bullet The Pentagon's effort to create nonlethal weapons that hurt but don't kill has set off its own fire storm BY LEV GROSSMAN Sunday, Jul. 21, 2002 (...) DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS Imagine a cross between a microwave oven and a Star Trek phaser: a tight, focused beam of energy that flash-heats its target from a distance. Directed energy beams do not burn flesh, but they do create an unbearably painful burning sensation. The Air Force Research Laboratory has already spent $40 million on a humvee-mounted directed-energy weapon. Expect to see it in the field by 2009. (...) MALODORANTS Working for the Pentagon, the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia has formulated smells so repellent that they can quickly clear a public space of anyone who can breathe — partygoers, rioters, even enemy forces. Scientists have tested the effectiveness of such odors as vomit, burnt hair, sewage, rotting flesh and a potent concoction known euphemistically as "U.S. Government Standard Bathroom Malodor." But don't expect to get a whiff anytime soon. Like all gaseous weapons, malodorants once released are hard to control, and their use is strictly limited by international chemical-weapons treaties. PROJECTILES No one likes rubber bullets — not the people being fired at nor the people doing the firing. "It's very easy to put out an eye, to blind someone," says Glenn Shwaery, director of the Nonlethal Technology Innovation Center. (...) Shwaery's team is looking into an even more radical solution: "tunable" bullets that can be adjusted in the field to be harder or softer as the situation warrants. "We're talking about dialing in the penetrating power," he says. (...) REAL RAY GUNS Further out on the horizon, the line between weapons development and science fiction becomes perilously thin. Mission Research Corp. of Santa Barbara, Calif., is working on a pulsed energy projectile (PEP) that superheats the surface moisture around a target so rapidly that it literally explodes, producing a bright flash of light and a loud bang. (...) DRUGS, BUGS AND BEYOND Even their supporters agree that "nonlethal weapons" is a dangerous misnomer and that any of these devices has the potential to injure and kill. What is more, some of them may not even be legal. Over the past three months, a chemical-weapons watchdog organization called the Sunshine Project has obtained evidence that the U.S. is considering some projects that appear to take us beyond the bounds of good sense: bioengineered bacteria designed to eat asphalt, fuel and body armor, or faster-acting, weaponized forms of antidepressants, opiates and so-called "club drugs" that could be rapidly administered to unruly crowds. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 21:03:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:03:31 -0400 Subject: Pink Dune (a mocktail) Message-ID: The following are served in the restaurant of my Hotel Oreanda in Yalta, Ukraine: PINK DUNE (non-alcoholic drink)--mango juice, cream, grenadine. (A Google search shows several hits, all from Eastern Europe. Did this drink start in Prague or Germany?...No other Ukraine cocktails of any great interest--ed.) VICTORIA SALAD--Chicken fillet, Banana and Oranges sprinkled with Walnuts and a Salad Garnish. (Not so many Google hits--ed.) FAIR LADY SALAD of Boiled Tongue and Fried Champignons with Mayonnaise. (No Google hits for this Fair Lady? A boiled tongue on a Fair Lady?--ed.) MISC.: A July 18, 2002 addition to "The Word Spy" includes "Hillbilly Heroin," a term that I posted here several months ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 23:24:07 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:24:07 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0400 7/22/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") >for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, >denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our >knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to >say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its >"complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, >associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history >and social history will surely set us back. > >dInIs > A point made very well, incidentally, by A. W. Read in the aforementioned (even by Safire) new book, with his notion of the "trajectory" of the history of a word. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 23 00:26:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:26:23 -0500 Subject: "pros from Dover" Message-ID: Here's a guess. During the Normandy Invasion,some specially-trained American forces had to scale the cliffs. Might they have first practiced on the cliffs of Dover and become proficient there? Gerald Cohen > In a message dated 7/22/02 4:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > where it might have come from? > From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jul 23 00:53:26 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:53:26 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: Since Dover Del. is the state capitol, is there a Med. school there, or were they horseplayers at Dover Downs? Anyone know Ring Lardner Jr. ask him! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > > where it might have come from? > > > > You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following > > is a guess: > > The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to > Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip > primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros > from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. > > I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is > there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? > > > Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half > > a century has > > been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and > > scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given > > expert in math, > > physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover > > reprints in her or > > his home library. > > Good guess. Do they do medical books? Militating against it is the sense of > troubleshooting consultant rather than written authority. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 23 01:08:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:08:51 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <011301c231e3$5aae3a20$c306433f@paulz> Message-ID: At 7:53 PM -0500 7/22/02, Paul M. Johnson wrote: >Since Dover Del. is the state capitol, is there a Med. school there, or were hmmm. FWIW... [there are other google sites on "Pros from Dover"--311 hits on it, using the quotes--but none I've looked at really explains it or traces it back before the mention on M*A*S*H. Nor do any of those below. The jury is still out.] -larry ========== http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/1309.html ["The Phrase Finder"] Posted by Bill Rodgers on August 25, 2000 at 18:49:04: In Reply to: Re: Prose from Dover? posted by Tom on August 18, 2000 at 05:09:28: : : : : ....Pros from Dover : : : : Was this phrase in existence before Elliott Gould said it on M*A*S*H* ? If so, an someone help with it's origin and meaning? : : : I found a site that claims the phrase is really "prose from dover"! : : : Here is a paste from the site: : : : "I think the word may be pronounced "proa". This is another name for a small ship and derives from the malay word "prau". It does not need much imagination to see how a word such as this could be distorted to "prose". As you know, Britain had an interest in this area in the past and many words which make little sense are still used today." : : : Hmmmm...! : : : prau : : : any of various Indonesian boats usually without a deck that are propelled especially by sails or paddles : : This same phrase came up before. But I can't remember what was said. I don't think anyone had an answer. I always thought it had something to do with the White Cliffs of Dover during World War II. : From the script context below, one would think it means ~ experts. : I'm the pro from Dover and this : is my favorite caddie. : : Look, Mother. I want to go to : work in one hour. We're the pros : from Dover and we figure to crack : that kid's chest and get out to : the golf course before it's dark. : He's the pro from Dover and I'm : the Ghost of Smokey Joe. : Don't give them any unnecessary : details. Just say the pros from : Dover are on their way with an : emergency. In the UK Prostitutes are knows as Pros. Hence Pros from Dover may originate from this fact, Dover is a port and where there were sailors there did you also find Pros - lots of pros. Follow Ups: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 02:22:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:22:16 EDT Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: In a message dated 07/22/2002 12:38:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to > Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip > primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros > from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. > > I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is > there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? I have never seen the movie and it has been almost 30 years since I read the book. Does anyone know if the Tokyo golf outing is in the book (I recall Hawkeye and his pals playing golf in odd places but I don't recall any trips to Japan). Unfortunately H. Richard Hornberger MD, who wrote the book under the pseudonym "Richard Hooker", died in 1997 so we can't ask him.) Dover Deleaware is the site of a big Air Force base that specializes in air transport rather than fighters or bombers (the West Wing fans on the list may recall that the show goes there periodically). I don't know if it was a transport hub during the Korean War, but it could have been. Hornberger is from Maine, and wrote the book while in medical practice in Bremen, Maine. Wasn't Hawkeye from Crabapple Cove, Maine? Hornberger may easily have shipped to Korea from Dover, in which case to him "pros from Dover" might mean "specialists flown in from the States and specifically from the IEast Coast". Or when the movie was being filmed (released 1970), someone may have been thinking of Dover in terms similar to the above. In a message dated 07/22/2002 8:36:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > Here's a guess. During the Normandy Invasion,some > specially-trained American forces had to scale the cliffs. Might they > have first practiced on the cliffs of Dover and become proficient > there? The "specially-trained American forces" was the 2nd Ranger Batallion, and their target was the long-range German guns at POinte du Hoc. The unit was activated and trained in the United States in 1943 before going to England. I haven't been able to find out where its training for Pointe du Hoc was conducted. Among the special equipment the Rangers carried for their mission was fireman's ladders (certainly worth a try for scaling 100-foot cliffs), and I seem to recall reading somewhere that these ladders were borrowed from the London Fire Department. The 3rd Ranger Batallion trained at Dover, but it was the 2nd Batallion, not the 3rd, which attacked Pointe du Hoc. The Rangers did succeed in scaling the cliffs, only to find that the "battery" consisted of painted telephone poles. The real guns had been moved back into some woods to hide them from air attack. The Rangers followed the tracks left by the guns when they were moved, and found and destroyed the guns. According to one Web site, Cornelius Ryan's _The Longest Day_ says that the operation was a boondoggle. On the contrary, although the guns were not in position when the Allies landed, if the Rangers had not captured Pointe du Hoc the guns might have been moved back into position where they could have made the Omaha landing much worse than it was. I don't think the 2nd Rangers had anything to do with the phrase "pros from Dover". Slightly less unlikely: at the Dieppe raid commandos landed on both flanks to attack German coastal batteries. I don't know if these commandos were British, Canadian, American, or a mix, but it is possible that these men trained at Dover. However, I consider this little more likely than the Pointe du Hoc suggestion. - Jim Landau From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:34:59 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:34:59 -0500 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: See, Dennis? I was going to say that too. One of the neatest interim classes I took at Macalester College (in another lifetime) was on "folk etymology" and we talked about all kinds of swear words that weren't swear words to very many people, and even had assignments to find some odd turn-of-phrase in English and get several people's opinions on where it came from. I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, qater corner, etc.). I just remembered that class from reading this thread. It was called "Vernacular as Ornament", and was unashamedly "unscientific" in approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Picnic > An excellent point. Some etymologists appear to believe that the > science is limited to "ultimates." I wonder why they ever mess with > Germanic and Latin-Greek bsses when they could just run up the > reconstructed PIE morphs. But that would not lead us down the often > exciting trails of words, ones which include numerous folk > etymologies being responsible for the current "meaning" (or even > shape) of a word. > > More sociolinguistically appropriate, of course, is the fact that not > all words have meant the same thing to all groups, a pretty common > lexicographical fact, I would think, since we have dictionaries based > on all sorts of group memberships and since leakage of those meanings > to out-groups is common - African-American to the wider speech > community being just one very good example. > > dInIs > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:52:44 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:52:44 -0500 Subject: pros from dover Message-ID: Have to say I like this one a lot too. You people are good at this. One might think one had stumbled across an enclave of lingophiles, eh? Hornberger may easily have shipped to Korea from Dover, in which case to him "pros from Dover" might mean "specialists flown in from the States and specifically from the East Coast". From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:30:37 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:30:37 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: I haven't looked through all of these, Dennis, so I may be repeating what someone else has already just said, but in many parts of Norway (I can't say "all", since I have not been everywhere, and Nynorsk as opposed to Bokma(o)l is hard enough for me to understand, I don't have time to worry about pronunciation!), that word-final /s/ really is [s], and not [sh]. I know this is at least true for native Norwegians I have known who lived in Norway from just before WWII to within the last ten years. And this is not because I have *asked* them -- as we all probably know, asking someone directly how they pronounce something often gets answers in isolation that sound nothing like how they say them in conversation. This [s] or [sh] allophone for /s/ at the end of words also marks very strongly where you come from within Northern Germany (in Bremen, it is [s], but in Hannover it is [sh] word-finally). And in large parts of Southern Germany, it is pronounced [sh] almost anywhere it appears (Schwaben, in particular). And by the way, the bear in the 1980 Olympics was indeed Misha. My nephew (Michael) was born just after that, and everyone called him Misha through preschool because it was "so cute" (now, he would sit on you if you called him that). With all due respect, Millie (by the way, Dennis, I remember you at Eastern very well, and wished I were there instead of Michigan sometimes, just so I could talk with you more often. You probably haven't a clue who I am anymore though.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:11 AM Subject: Re: pronuncation of BURY > Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a > modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like > Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist > those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> > /larz/. > > dInIs > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:49:46 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:49:46 -0500 Subject: pros from dover Message-ID: In the UK Prostitutes are knows as Pros. Hence Pros from Dover may originate from this fact, Dover is a port and where there were sailors there did you also find Pros - lots of pros. I vote for that one. It makes a lot of sense in a "folk etymology" kind of way. This kind of like playing linguishtiks, isn't it? (Anyway, that's what we called it in grad school.) From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 23 02:27:34 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:34 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted the following, in reference to children's books: it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. [_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. Just a data point. Jesse Sheidlower From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:16:49 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:16:49 -0500 Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota Message-ID: That is just strange, Dan. I never hear a native say "soda", but it appears on a sign every once in a while. Usually a formal sign created elsewhere and brought in for the occasion (like at the State Fair, on the food booths that travel the country to different Fairs, and don't use the "right" word for Pronto Pup). :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Goodman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota > Saturday the 13th, an ice cream social's refreshments included "soda" > -- in what once was solid "pop" territory. > > Note: the event was in Bryant Square Park, put on by the CARAG > Neighorhood Organization. > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 23 03:14:37 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:14:37 -0400 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: > I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >qater corner, etc.). ~~~~~~ I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater corner" and how is it pronouounced? Long _ a_ or short? A. Murie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 03:52:27 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:52:27 -0500 Subject: FOLK ETYMOLOGY Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: > I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >qater corner, etc.). ~~~~~~ I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater corner" and how is it pronounced? Long _ a_ or short? A. Murie ------------------------ I have seen "lay people" write it (and trust me, you don't see it written often by chance) "kitty corner", "kiddy corner", "catty corner", "cater corner" and "qater corner" (though this latter was in a HUGE, old, red dictionary that I seem to recall was an American Heritage Dictionary). I have heard it "kiddy corner", "kitty corner" (which both sound virtually identical due to the "alveolar flap" that is a combination of "d" and "t"), "catty corner", "cat's corner" and "cater corner" (or "kater", if you prefer I spell it that way, but I assume the person would have spelled it with a "c", thinking it was from "cat"). Almost everyone I asked about it assumed it came from the word "cat" in some way. The more "formal" written etymologies I have seen claim it came from "qater", as in "four", and I did not run into any "lay people" who agreed they "would have guessed that, but just hadn't thought about it much". Oops, one more: "king's corner", I have heard too. I assume because of the children's card game. Still Me, Millie From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 23 05:03:32 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:03:32 -0700 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <35.2a17fdae.2a6e17d8@aol.com> Message-ID: > I have never seen the movie and it has been almost 30 years since > I read the book. Does anyone know if the Tokyo golf outing is in > the book (I recall Hawkeye and his pals playing golf in odd places > but I don't recall any trips to Japan). Unfortunately H. Richard > Hornberger MD, who wrote the book under the pseudonym "Richard > Hooker", died in 1997 so we can't ask him.) The 1970 screenplay was written by Ring Lardner, Jr. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us either. But, looking at the script, it is clearly a reference to golfing: "PRETTY WAC: Hey you can't go in there! Who are you? "HAWKEYE: I'm the pro from Dover and this is my favorite caddie." A little while later, Trapper says to the head-nurse: "TRAPPER: Look Mother. I want to go to work in one hour. We're the pros from Dover and we figure to crack that kid's chest and get out to the golf course before it's dark." The pair use the phrase self-referentially a couple of more times before they leave Tokyo. (M*A*S*H, by Ring Lardner, Jr., 1970, http://www.scriptdude.com/frames/moviescripts/mash.pdf ) My guess is that Lardner coined the phrase (unless it's in the book, which I haven't read). I have no idea what "Dover" refers to. There are no famous golf courses that I know of by that name or near a place called Dover. A web search identifies a 9-hole course in Dover-Foxcroft, Maine. Possibly, Hawkeye is making a facetious reference to a small, local golf course that he knew back home. From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 23 05:27:49 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:49 -0700 Subject: "I loves me some X" Message-ID: I'm not sure to what extent "I loves me some" has been discussed here before (I'm new to the list), but for what it's worth: In my years living in Kentucky and Texas, I never heard the phrase. Then I moved to New York City about 4 years ago and soon started noticing it being used almost exclusively by African-Americans. I figured it had started as a phrase unique to urban black culture, but now I'm hearing it more and more from white kids (teens and college students, mostly) from all different classes, backgrounds, and levels of education. At first they seemed to be using it ironically, but not so much anymore. I think the educated kids still feel obligated to say it in a playful tone at least, but it's said much more matter-of-factly than other street slang phrases that they have picked up. That's not to say that I hear "I loves me some X" often, but enough that I even find myself saying it now and again. Brooke Pierce --------- On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:34 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower wrote: On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted the following, in reference to children's books: it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. [_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. Just a data point. Jesse Sheidlower From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 23 05:31:55 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:31:55 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <3D3BD355.19246.354279@localhost> Message-ID: Here's what I adduce from Internet references. I read and saw "MASH" so long ago that I'm not sure whether I remember any of this or not: some seems to ring a faint bell. I don't guarantee it: maybe I can get a look at the novel tomorrow, or maybe somebody else remembers better. In the movie "MASH", Hawkeye and Trapper introduce themselves facetiously as "the pros from Dover", but in the first use of the expression in the movie Hawkeye introduces himself as "the pro from Dover" and introduces his companion as his caddie. They are apparently surgeons between golf games. "Pro" means "golf pro", i.e. the "pro[fessional golfer]" (?) associated with a golf club. Apparently somewhere in the original MASH novel, somebody (Hawkeye?) has a trick for getting free golf course admission (in Maine, I think): introducing himself (to the pro at a golf club) as "the pro from Dover", i.e., as the pro from some other golf club (maybe an imaginary one), thus getting a free game as "professional courtesy". So the movie usage is from the novel and I think there is some background there. The current usage I feel pretty sure comes from the movie. "Pros from Dover" means "[outside/visiting] experts", I guess. -- Doug Wilson From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 14:37:57 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:37:57 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723010713.0245c080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Maybe, just maybe, it's a place name with convenient assonance and doesn't have to be the famous cliffs or the capital of Delaware or the little town in Arkansas. DMLance on 7/23/02 12:31 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: > Here's what I adduce from Internet references. I read and saw "MASH" so > long ago that I'm not sure whether I remember any of this or not: some > seems to ring a faint bell. I don't guarantee it: maybe I can get a look at > the novel tomorrow, or maybe somebody else remembers better. > > In the movie "MASH", Hawkeye and Trapper introduce themselves facetiously > as "the pros from Dover", but in the first use of the expression in the > movie Hawkeye introduces himself as "the pro from Dover" and introduces his > companion as his caddie. They are apparently surgeons between golf games. > "Pro" means "golf pro", i.e. the "pro[fessional golfer]" (?) associated > with a golf club. Apparently somewhere in the original MASH novel, somebody > (Hawkeye?) has a trick for getting free golf course admission (in Maine, I > think): introducing himself (to the pro at a golf club) as "the pro from > Dover", i.e., as the pro from some other golf club (maybe an imaginary > one), thus getting a free game as "professional courtesy". > > So the movie usage is from the novel and I think there is some background > there. The current usage I feel pretty sure comes from the movie. "Pros > from Dover" means "[outside/visiting] experts", I guess. > > -- Doug Wilson > From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 14:33:24 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:33:24 -0500 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: <001201c231fc$5f501a80$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: DARE has a full column on this term. Lots of variants with some regional distributions. AHD3's etymology has 'cater' as the original form, a Middle English form based on the French 'catre' referring to the diagonal of four corners. Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are across the intersection rather than across the street from each other. I've heard people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little way down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to take a diagonal path to cross from one to the other. DMLance on 7/22/02 10:52 PM, Millie Webb at millie-webb at CHARTER.NET wrote: > Millie Webb writes: > >> I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >> qater corner, etc.). > ~~~~~~ > I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard > anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater > corner" and how is it pronounced? Long _ a_ or short? > A. Murie > > ------------------------ > > I have seen "lay people" write it (and trust me, you don't see it written > often by chance) "kitty corner", "kiddy corner", "catty corner", "cater > corner" and "qater corner" (though this latter was in a HUGE, old, red > dictionary that I seem to recall was an American Heritage Dictionary). I have > heard it "kiddy corner", "kitty corner" (which both sound virtually identical > due to the "alveolar flap" that is a combination of "d" and "t"), "catty > corner", "cat's corner" and "cater corner" (or "kater", if you prefer I spell > it that way, but I assume the person would have spelled it with a "c", > thinking it was from "cat"). Almost everyone I asked about it assumed it came > from the word "cat" in some way. The more "formal" written etymologies I have > seen claim it came from "qater", as in "four", and I did not run into any "lay > people" who agreed they "would have guessed that, but just hadn't thought > about it much". Oops, one more: "king's corner", I have heard too. I assume > because of the children's card game. > > Still Me, Millie > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 15:06:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:06:51 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki (OT: THE SEAGULL) Message-ID: O.T.: THE SEAGULL I visited Anton Checkov's Yalta home just now. There is a seagull above his bed. My local tour guide said that he wrote THE SEAGULL while in Yalta. THE SEAGULL was written in 1896 and revised in 1898. Checkov moved to Yalta in 1899. HE DID NOT WRITE _THE SEAGULL_ IN YALTA! I've never been in Yalta before. I last saw THE SEAGULL about 25 years ago, and it starred Blythe Danner (when she wasn't known as Gwyneth Paltrow's mother). And I know that this tour guide, who's done this tour many times, isn't telling the correct info. Off topic. Just ticks me off! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 14:50:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:50:53 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook or guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. I guess no one wants my money in the Ukraine..."Ukraine" alone is usually used. We walked right past some doughnuts with sugar on them. Then we walked past them again on the way back. So I asked my tour guide, what are those? "Ponchiki," he said. Pause. No other explanation. And I'm thinking: I told this guy about a zillion times now that I'm interested in Ukrainian food. How unhelpful can he be? Is it the other two people on the tour that's throwing everything off? He asked me if I had put down on my tour application that I had special interests and special requests. Maybe I did or maybe I didn't (I don't remember), but when we walk right past this stuff time and time again, when I'm in a restaurant and want to see a menu...WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? PONCHIKI--Not in OED. PAMPUSHKI--Also seen many places and not in OED. www.russianfoods.com/recipes--a good site. Check out the Ukrainian recipes. OED records almost none of them. I have one more day of touring in the Crimean area on Wednesday, and then I have a day in Kiev on Thursday to do research with my helpful guide before flying home on Friday. Don't expect too much on Thursday. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 16:14:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:14:41 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 10:54:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook or > guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. I guess no one wants my money in the > Ukraine As the old proverb says, "Crimea doesn't pay". Yalta go somewhere else. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Jul 23 16:26:56 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:26:56 +0100 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki In-Reply-To: <7C090D52.32A8350B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook > or guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. Abroad is a foreign country: they do things differently there. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 16:39:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:39:04 EDT Subject: (OT: THE SEAGULL) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 11:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I visited Anton Checkov's Yalta home just now. There is a seagull above > his bed. My local tour guide said that he wrote THE SEAGULL while in Yalta. > THE SEAGULL was written in 1896 and revised in 1898. Checkov moved to > Yalta in 1899. > HE DID NOT WRITE _THE SEAGULL_ IN YALTA! > I've never been in Yalta before. I last saw THE SEAGULL about 25 years > ago, and it starred Blythe Danner (when she wasn't known as Gwyneth Paltrow's > mother). And I know that this tour guide, who's done this tour many times, > isn't telling the correct info. It could have been worse. Lord Byron (when he wasn't known as the father of Ada, Countess of Lovelace) visited the castle of Chillon, where the Swiss patriot Bonnivard was imprisoned for a number of years. (This was on the same tour on which Byron and his travelling companions held their notorious ghost-story challenge). Byron wrote a famous poem, "The Prisoner of Chillon", based on the misinformation his tour guide told him. Maybe Crimea does pay. You'll have to ask the SevastoPOL. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 23 16:53:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:53:11 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: # the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in # high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern # thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch # since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners # and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. As it just happens, an acquaintance's aperiodic humor e-column arrived yesterday starting with # Let's make sure we've got this clear, right from the start: I love me # some Crocodile Hunter. (Referring to the TV show and now the movie.) I don't know where she's from originally. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 23 17:46:03 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:46:03 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: IIRC, it's just that: In the 1968 novel, the surgeons described themselves as "the pros from Dover" to give the impression that they were the golf pros at the Dover golf course. There is no Dover golf course, naturally, or at least the surgeons didn't have a particular golf course in mind. "Dover" was chosen as suggestive of golf courses in general and likely to fool the local golf pro into believing it was an actual course that he just couldn't place at the moment. In terms of what the phrase means more generally, I suppose it refers to pseudo-experts who give vague, manufactured credentials to imply that they are more knowledgeable than is really the case. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Donald M Lance [mailto:lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:38 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Pros from Dover Maybe, just maybe, it's a place name with convenient assonance and doesn't have to be the famous cliffs or the capital of Delaware or the little town in Arkansas. DMLance From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 23 18:29:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:29:18 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: At 10:27 PM -0400 7/22/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted >the following, in reference to children's books: > > it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and > enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry > caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. > >[_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] > >I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it >has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: > > the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in > high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern > thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch > since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners > and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. > I found a number of "I (just) love me some X" on the web, after hearing Jack on "Will and Grace" use it. My interest stemmed from the fact that (as Dannenberg & Webelhuth have observed) the "personal dative" or "Southern double object" construction is used only when the "real" object (not the one represented by the co-referential non-reflexive pronoun) is quantified: I'm gonna buy me {a new pick-up/some baseball caps/*baseball caps}. What's interesting about these proper name cases is the appearance of "some" that seems to be there just to satisfy the constraint. Or is there a difference in meaning--does the "some" really bring in partitivity or something else? More recently, watching a video, I came across a third person use: ========== My husband used to *love* him some Jack Daniels. --Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's character) in Monster's Ball. =========== Leticia is both southern (black) and lower-class, and I'd guess that a number of the postings are from southerners, but I have no idea about class, really, especially for Grace, that peeing cat. I must say, the trailer park entry and the one about Old Cletus are pretty suggestive (at least of how this construction is conceptualized). The non-reflexive in this position (especially with single-object verbs like "love") is much more frequent in southern speech, although in first person it's not quite as much of a diagnostic as it would be in third person. I include them here for possible interest. (I just went with the standard agreement and didn't check on "loves me some", but I'll be happy to.) --Larry ============== http://www.jolenestrailerpark.com/Storys/3.htm I just love me some Jerry Springer. I don't know why so many people are trying to "Clean up" his act. Don't they know half the people in the world act this way? http://www.hayllar.com/dec00/51200.html I just love me some cats! Don't you just LOVe cats?! Š Grace keeps to herself these days. And her crime of the month is to pee in my big house plant. "I love me some plants. The green sets off my beauty. And the soil is just right for a little wee." http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/staff/Chanile.asp Favorite Actresses: Drew Bareymore, Jennifer Garner (just love me some ALIAS!), Meg Ryan (not with Russell Crowe though) http://www.bitchypoo.com/2001/March/08.html In fact, I just read the first of the Kat Colorado series, which my beloved Moira sent me for my birthday. I just love me some female kick-ass detectives, and when the hell is Sue Grafton going to put the next one out? http://daylee.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$76 IŠwas so glad to see to see Denzel Washington win for his potrayal of Rubin Carter in The Hurricane that I whooped out loud. I did, I did. I guess I just love me some Denzel. http://members.aol.com/unclrdcstr/redmas.htm Anyway, back to Christmas.........long about this time Cletus Henderson , Bovina's daddy,came out of the kitchen and yelled "Dinner's ready, Y'all come on and eayt." Old Cletus always did cook up a mean old meal. "I gots some cornbread, some oyster stew, and roast Coon with cheese." Ahhhhh, there ain't nothin that goes better as Christmas dinner than Coon and Cheese. Umm, ummm. I just love me some Coon and Cheese. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 23 19:30:29 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:30:29 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books Message-ID: The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 20:01:28 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:01:28 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: DID YOU KNOW? Some finicky foodies claim that Chicken Kiev has nothing to do with the Ukrainian capital, having been so named by restaurants in New York. (Found on Google.) I made an internet search with my tour guide just now. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian libraries aren't up to speed. Most online catalogs don't have pre-1990 books. On the plus side, we did look at the Taras Shevchenko Scientific Society Library, 63 Fourth Avenue, New York City. It has one book (cooking) from 1937, and one 1990 reprint of a 1913 book. This beats the LOC and NYPL! O.T.: "Crimea doesn't pay." Ooh, I owe Landau for this one. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:01:42 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > =========== > Leticia is both southern (black) and lower-class, and I'd guess that > a number of the postings are from southerners, but I have no idea > about class, really, especially for Grace, that peeing cat. I must > say, the trailer park entry and the one about Old Cletus are pretty > suggestive (at least of how this construction is conceptualized). > The non-reflexive in this position (especially with single-object > verbs like "love") is much more frequent in southern speech, although > in first person it's not quite as much of a diagnostic as it would be > in third person. I include them here for possible interest. (I just > went with the standard agreement and didn't check on "loves me some", > but I'll be happy to.) > > --Larry A couple of observations: Most of the occurences I hear/see of this phenom seem to me to be affected, self-conscious performance. It seems to have a (primarily) humorous & (secondarily) mildly intensive affect when spoken by people not of the social-regional background that it seems to be attributed to (which people account for a vast majority of my experience with it). I have heard this from college students from such far-flung places as El Lay, Lon Guyland, and Brazil. In these instances it appears to me to be some sort of fad speech. My earliest recollection of hearing this from a young, middle-class, non-southerner goes back to at least 1996. "Up" is often included in the construction - "I('m gonna) [verb] me UP some [direct object]." As in, "I loves me up some Dave Matthews Band," and, "I'm gonna eat me up some ice cream." From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:15:19 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:15:19 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The so-called Army Method of teaching foreign languages was developed in WWII in order to train military personnel (esp. future spies) to speak "strategic" FLs. This evolved into the Audio-lingual Method (ALM) used in high schools and colleges for the next several decades (and even yet in many places). Linguists were called upon to write textbooks and train teachers, and the method developed was based on the descriptive and contrastive grammar approach common since the Bloomfield era. Charles Fries and Robert Lado at the U of Michigan pioneered this new "scientific" method (Lado's term), and the "applied linguistics" field was born. The language teaching field has come a long way since then, but you see the same frantic call now for people who can speak Arabic, Persian, Urdu, etc.--after many years of ignoring them in FL departments. At 03:30 PM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: >The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung >Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, >including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of >the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this >book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive >Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The >copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). > >This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all >the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? > >Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 23 20:30:41 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:30:41 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: >El Lay, Lon Guyland ~~~~~~~~ Hey, you got speech recognition software? AM From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 20:24:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:24:55 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 4:01:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > O.T.: "Crimea doesn't pay." Ooh, I owe Landau for this one. Before your thoughts turn to revenge, you should make sure to see the re-enactment of the Charge of the Heavy Brigade at the Battle of Baklava. The "Crimea" gag was from an African-American woman who liked to use the pen-name "Nina Rasrushen". The "Yalta" gag was from a Russian-speaking anthropologist named Costello. I have no idea if either are still in existence, but in the 1970's the two largest Russian-language bookstores in the world were in the US---Victor Kamkin's in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC and Amtorg's bookstore (I forget the name, possibly "International") in New York. - Jim Landau (heading for the bomb shelter) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:38:16 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:38:16 -0700 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I find LSA/ACLS manuals for Chinese (1945), Melanesian pidgin (1943), Spoken Korean (1947), Spoken Japanese (1945), Colloquial Dutch (1944), Spoken Dutch (1944) [I'm not sure how this differs from Colloquial Dutch--ed.], Spoken Burmese (1945), Spoken Danish (1945), Spoken Malay (1945), Spoken Thai (1945), Spoken Serbo-Croatian (1945), Spoken Russian (1945), Spoken German (1940?), Spoken Spanish (1940?), Spoken Turkish (1944) [my old textbook]. Many appeared in the "Holt spoken language series". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung > Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, > including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of > the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this > book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive > Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The > copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). > > This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all > the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? > > Bethany > From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 23 20:39:11 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723010713.0245c080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Here's the origin of the expression, I believe: Richard Hooker, "M*A*S*H", 1968: Ch. 8: pp. 71-2: <> So that's why "Dover": it's a place-name which is very ambiguous. A little later in the book, Hawkeye and Trapper John are rousted from their golf in Korea and sent to do thoracic surgery in Japan; they arrive unshaven, dressed (apparently) in outlandish borrowed Korean clothing, and toting golf clubs; they make a number of silly wisecracks, and request the patient's X-ray films (p. 77): <<"All right," Trapper said. "Somebody trot out the latest pictures of this kid with the shell fragment in his chest." No one moved. "Snap it up!" yelled Hawkeye. "We're the pros from Dover, and the last pictures we saw must be forty-eight hours old by now.">> A little later (p. 78), confronted by a fierce nurse: <<"Don't get mad, ma'am," Hawkeye said. "All we want is our starting time." "Get out!" she screamed. "Look, mother," Trapper said. "I'm the pro from Dover. Me and my greenskeeper want to crack that kid's chest and get out to the course. ....">> So what the expression SHOULD mean is "frivolous grotesque-looking visitors with doubtful credentials", but I suppose this concept is implicit whenever outside experts are called in. Apparently "pros from Dover" is used nowadays to mean simply "outside experts" or sometimes even simply "experts". -- Doug Wilson From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 21:44:10 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723160819.024949e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. (To keep a language element in the discussion.) DMLance on 7/23/02 3:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: > Here's the origin of the expression, I believe: > > Richard Hooker, "M*A*S*H", 1968: Ch. 8: pp. 71-2: > > < attention to other games, but during medical school, his internship and his > residency he had played golf as often as possible. Joining a club had been > out of the question, and even payment of green fees was economically > unsound. Therefore he developed a technique which frequently allowed him > the privilege of playing some public and a number of unostentatious private > courses. He would walk confidently into a pro shop, smile, comment upon the > nice condition of the course, explain that he was just passing through and > that he was Joe, Dave or Jack Somebody, the pro from Dover. This resulted, > about eight times out of ten, in an invitation to play for free. If forced > into conversation, he became the pro from Dover, New Hampshire, > Massachusetts, New Jersey, England, Ohio, Delaware, Tennessee, or > Dover-Foxcroft, Maine, whichever seemed safest.>> > > So that's why "Dover": it's a place-name which is very ambiguous. > > A little later in the book, Hawkeye and Trapper John are rousted from their > golf in Korea and sent to do thoracic surgery in Japan; they arrive > unshaven, dressed (apparently) in outlandish borrowed Korean clothing, and > toting golf clubs; they make a number of silly wisecracks, and request the > patient's X-ray films (p. 77): > > <<"All right," Trapper said. "Somebody trot out the latest pictures of this > kid with the shell fragment in his chest." > No one moved. > "Snap it up!" yelled Hawkeye. "We're the pros from Dover, and the last > pictures we saw must be forty-eight hours old by now.">> > > A little later (p. 78), confronted by a fierce nurse: > > <<"Don't get mad, ma'am," Hawkeye said. "All we want is our starting time." > "Get out!" she screamed. > "Look, mother," Trapper said. "I'm the pro from Dover. Me and my > greenskeeper want to crack that kid's chest and get out to the course. ....">> > > So what the expression SHOULD mean is "frivolous grotesque-looking visitors > with doubtful credentials", but I suppose this concept is implicit whenever > outside experts are called in. Apparently "pros from Dover" is used > nowadays to mean simply "outside experts" or sometimes even simply "experts". > > -- Doug Wilson > From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Jul 23 22:03:20 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:03:20 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: plus Dover has more soul! (or, is that sole?) > ---------- > From: Donald M Lance > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from > Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than > Dovers. > (To keep a language element in the discussion.) > > DMLance > > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 23 23:27:32 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:27:32 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, A. Maberry wrote: >I find LSA/ACLS manuals for Chinese (1945), Melanesian pidgin (1943), >Spoken Korean (1947), Spoken Japanese (1945), Colloquial Dutch (1944), >Spoken Dutch (1944) [I'm not sure how this differs from Colloquial >Dutch--ed.], Spoken Burmese (1945), Spoken Danish (1945), Spoken Malay >(1945), Spoken Thai (1945), Spoken Serbo-Croatian (1945), Spoken Russian >(1945), Spoken German (1940?), Spoken Spanish (1940?), Spoken Turkish >(1944) [my old textbook]. Many appeared in the "Holt spoken language >series". Thanks - they must have published all of them. Bethany From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Jul 23 23:38:49 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Donald" > Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are across > the intersection rather than across the street from each other. I've heard > people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little way > down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to take a > diagonal path to cross from one to the other. Re your reply and the other person's inquiry: I've never heard anything but "kitty-corner" around here(Seattle and presumably the rest of the Pacific NW). I, too, understand that it was originally "cater-corner", but have never heard anyone of my acquaintance pronounce it that way. Re to point 2: It's my understanding that "kitty corner" refers to diagonal direction, as "the building you're looking for is kitty corner to Starbuck's" or the like IOW, it's on the opposite side of the street(or whatever) to the building or object you are using as a directional reference. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 23 23:55:33 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:55:33 -0700 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: <000901c232a2$1979f930$1ba2f5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I seem to remember first hearing it as "catty-corner" but then hearing "kitty-corner" more often and gradually adjusting my own usage. This shift may have coincided with our move from So. California to Oregon when I was in 5th grade, but I wouldn't swear to it. PMc --On Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:38 PM -0700 Anne Gilbert wrote: > Donald" > >> Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are >> across the intersection rather than across the street from each other. >> I've > heard >> people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little >> way down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to >> take a diagonal path to cross from one to the other. > > Re your reply and the other person's inquiry: > > I've never heard anything but "kitty-corner" around here(Seattle and > presumably the rest of the Pacific NW). I, too, understand that it was > originally "cater-corner", but have never heard anyone of my acquaintance > pronounce it that way. > > Re to point 2: It's my understanding that "kitty corner" refers to > diagonal direction, as "the building you're looking for is kitty corner to > Starbuck's" or the like IOW, it's on the opposite side of the street(or > whatever) to the building or object you are using as a directional > reference. > Anne G > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Jul 23 12:18:10 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:18:10 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: There is no New York City... there's only New York, N.Y. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 24 01:20:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:20:41 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) > >DMLance > Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 01:32:50 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:32:50 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki and Nordikski Message-ID: In a message dated 07/23/2002 4:01:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Some finicky foodies claim that Chicken Kiev has nothing to do with the > Ukrainian capital, having been so named by restaurants in New York. The OED2 has a 1950 citation for "Chicken cutlets Kiev" and the following 1964 multicultural citation for "Chicken Kiev": "I had lasagne (sp?) and followed it with chicken Kiev" from a book entitled "Funeral in Berlin". I can make the smallest possible antedating. Bob Hope "I Owe Russia $1200" published in 1963 has, if I remember correctly, part of a page devoted to Chicken Kiev, of which his party ate so much while in the Soviet Union that they allegedly could have flapped their way back to the States. Sorry, Jesse, but I don't have the book so you'll have to take care of locating the citation. Hopefully somebody can find "matruchka". I am positive there is a circa 1970 citation somewhere in my home library, but darned if I can find it. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 04:34:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:34:32 -0400 Subject: Chicken Kiev (Re: Ponchiki & Pampushki and Nordikski) Message-ID: There are some "Chicken Kiev" citations from the 1930s in the ADS-L archives, but I always try to do better. A Google search turns up a lot of the George Bush "Chicken Kiev" jokes. FUN YALTA FACT: There is a statue of Lenin here, in Lenin Square. Just opposite the statue is a McDonald's. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 24 15:47:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:47:09 -0700 Subject: A giggle for Wednesday Message-ID: Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of "Oregon Chai"). I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 24 16:54:28 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:54:28 -0400 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a pronunciation for it! A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 24 16:56:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:56:34 -0700 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say > "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a > pronunciation for it! I use it, rhyming it with "latter." But this is an adult usage that started when I learned the etymology of the word. Growing up in NJ, it was either "kittycorner" or "cattycorner," depending on whom you spoke to. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 17:29:05 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:29:05 -0400 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I've heard /kae:t at k)rn at r/ or something like that, but definitely r-less in the second syllable. Also /kItik)rn at r/, but never /keit at r.../ or /kaeti.../ or /keiti.../. Perhaps the 'catercorner' spelling is British or Bostonian?? Catteh-corner is possibly the more frequent pronunciation of the two I recall having heard. Dave Wilton wrote: > > > I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say > > "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a > > pronunciation for it! > > I use it, rhyming it with "latter." > > But this is an adult usage that started when I learned the etymology of the > word. Growing up in NJ, it was either "kittycorner" or "cattycorner," > depending on whom you spoke to. -- ............................................. . D r e w D a n i e l s o n . . . . Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar . . Carnegie Mellon University • ECE Department . . 5000 Forbes Avenue • Pittsburgh, PA 15213 . . +1 412 268-2188 Voice • +1 412 268-3890 Fax . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ . ............................................. To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful. -- Robert A. Heinlein From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:31:02 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:31:02 EDT Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I've never heard catercorner. Cattycorner and cattywampus are the two that I've (and presumably, So.IL has) got, with kitty corner falling in somewhere as a "cute" variant. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 24 17:33:01 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:33:01 -0500 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: >At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of >the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) >announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of >"Oregon Chai"). > >I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." > >Peter Mc. > This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. Gerald Cohen From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:45:31 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:45:31 EDT Subject: catercorner: in DARE Message-ID: Perhaps someone has mentioned this, but for terms like "catercorner" and "kitty-corner" the comprehensive detailed reference is our Dictionary of American Regional English. It says "catercorner" is chiefly South and South Midlands, while "kitty-corner" is chiefly North, North Midland, and West. There's a map of "kitty-corner" distribution in volume 3. There are also entries for the related terms "catawampus" and "kitty-wampus." Look for DARE volume 4 this fall. You can win a free copy if you know the answers to the quiz on the back page of the May 2002 ADS newsletter. - Allan Metcalf From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:45:30 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:45:30 EDT Subject: Fulbright Grants Deadline Approaching Message-ID: Here's a public service announcement that you might find usefully self-serving. - Allan Metcalf --------------------------- Fulbright Scholar Application Deadline Approaching Put your professional experience to good use--join the ranks of Fulbright Scholars and share your knowledge with the global community. Every year the Fulbright Scholar Program sends over 800 faculty and professionals abroad. Awards range from two months to an academic year. The deadline for submission is quickly approaching; all applications must be in our office by August 1 for the 2003-04 competition. Next year's competition opens March 1. For information, visit our Web site at www.cies.org. Or contact: The Council for International Exchange of Scholars 3007 Tilden Street, N.W. - Suite 5L Washington, D.C. 20008 Phone: 202-686-7877 E-mail: apprequest at cies.iie. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 24 18:03:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:03:32 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Lars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:31 AM 7/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >#Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a >#modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like >#Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist >#those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> >#/larz/. > >Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? > >I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than >necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area >in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, >long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the >default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. >Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. > >-- Mark A. Mandel I asked a linguistics student from Denmark (who has frequent contact with Norwegians) about /sh/ in "Lars," and he confirmed Mark's comment that it's really a retroflex sound with /r/ coloring instead. But the final consonant is /s/, which is all I heard growing up around lots of Larses and Larse/ons. The change to /z/ still sounds strange to me, just as pronouncing "Knute" without initial /kn/ does. Beverly Olson Flanigan (40 years out of Minnesota but still a Viking) From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 24 18:14:35 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:14:35 -0700 Subject: pronunciation of Lars Message-ID: I am Norwegian by birth and most of my education, so I'll take the liberty of weighing in here. Lars in Norwegian is pronounced with an unvoiced "sh" sound at the end and with a retroflex "L." The vowel is an elongated "ah" sound, like in "psalm." The "r" is completely silent in all dialects I can think of. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 18:31:20 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:20 EDT Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 7/24/02 1:44:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives > from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that > despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the > Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was > sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is > Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. I had a cousin of a cousin who was originally named Kahn. He became a labor organizer for, I think, the CIO in the South and found he wasn't having any success. So he changed his name to "Conn" and instantly became much more successful (or so I heard the story). Years later, when he was running a community newspaper, he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 24 20:03:36 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:03:36 -0400 Subject: A giggle for Wednesday In-Reply-To: <148733.3236489229@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of #the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) #announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of #"Oregon Chai"). I've been hoping for a kosher tea-based drink called "Chai Chai", pronounced [xaI tSaI]. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 24 20:07:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:07:22 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I had a cousin of a cousin who was originally named Kahn. He became a labor #organizer for, I think, the CIO in the South and found he wasn't having any #success. So he changed his name to "Conn" and instantly became much more #successful (or so I heard the story). Years later, when he was running a #community newspaper, he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to #come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No #matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." On the telephone, which is which, and how could they tell? -- Mark From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 24 20:11:41 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:11:41 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <3D3DB626.D0EAFFB7@cmu.edu> Message-ID: Is there really a dialect where this "love [objective pronoun] [something]" is used conventionally? I find "I stopped and got me some smokes" quite ordinary and natural, but I've never encountered anything like "I really love me some smokes". The only environment in which I would find such a construction even borderline natural would be along the lines of "I loved me some girls" and I think this is a different "love" (cf. "met all the girls and I loved myself a few" [IIRC] in the song "One Toke Over the Line"). To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. As for the qualifier, consider: I stopped and bought cigarettes. I stopped and bought some cigarettes. I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:12:43 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:12:43 -0500 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: Last Friday I sent a message about executions sometimes being viewed as a wedding. An offshoot theme is that the al Qaeda terrorists regard their martyrdom-acts as a wedding. Clear evidence of this offshoot-theme is presented in the German news magazine _Spiegel_, 27 May 2002, pp. 126-128, (title): "Operation Große Hochzeit" (= Operation Big Wedding). Here's a translation of a relevant paragraph, p. 127: "In spring of 2001 the Jordanian secret service had intercepted [the message(s)] that al-Qaeda was preparing in the U.S.the 'Operation al-Urus al Kabir,' Operation Big Wedding. It was known that one or several airplanes were to be used for it. The warning to the American friends was lost ["ging unter" = sunk, was submerged] in the maelstrom of news. Likewise the notification from a Moroccan undercover agent that Osama Bin Laden's people wanted to strike New York with a 'large scale operation'." Gerald Cohen From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:24:05 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:24:05 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) I think this should read, "Does y'all agrees y'allse'fs with them there little stars" ===== From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:33:59 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:33:59 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmmmm. Til I was pretty old I thought O'Possum was a kind of Irish joke name for possum. dInIs >>At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >>Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of >>the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) >>announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of >>"Oregon Chai"). >> >>I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." >> >>Peter Mc. >> > > >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:37:42 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:37:42 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724144947.024f32a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >All your *'s a perfectly grammatical for me. dInIs >Is there really a dialect where this "love [objective pronoun] [something]" >is used conventionally? I find "I stopped and got me some smokes" quite >ordinary and natural, but I've never encountered anything like "I really >love me some smokes". The only environment in which I would find such a >construction even borderline natural would be along the lines of "I loved >me some girls" and I think this is a different "love" (cf. "met all the >girls and I loved myself a few" [IIRC] in the song "One Toke Over the Line"). > >To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like >caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an >established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by >replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. >But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where >everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. > >As for the qualifier, consider: > >I stopped and bought cigarettes. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes. >I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought me cigarettes. >I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. >I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. >I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. >I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. > >* Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:46:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:46:51 -0700 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724144947.024f32a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) This is the only one that sounds odd to me. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:53:07 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:53:07 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > > >To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like > >caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an > >established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by > >replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. > >But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where > >everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. I agree re "caricatures or imitations", but I would argue that the construction is well-established as an available alternative among certain speech cohorts. I get the feeling that it functions much in the same vein and to the same effect as "you done good", which was discussed here some time back. I can't imagine that spontaneous acts of cleverness are being the nearly 6000 incidents of "love me some" indexed at google.com. Even accounting for a relatively high incidence of 'me' as direct object in this string (2 of the first 10 hits generated), the dative 'me' (8 of the first 10 hits) seems to show some signs of being an 'estblished imitation'. From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Jul 24 20:59:31 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:59:31 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: I recently disabused an adult, named Patrick, that the childrens book titled Pat The Bunny was not about a rabbit named Pat(rick). Despite his advanced age (30-odd), Patrick was crestfallen. > ---------- > From: Dennis R. Preston > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun > > Hmmmmm. Til I was pretty old I thought O'Possum was a kind of Irish > joke name for possum. > > dInIs > > > > > >>At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >>Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of > >>the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the > (female) > >>announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land > of > >>"Oregon Chai"). > >> > >>I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." > >> > >>Peter Mc. > >> > > > > > >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives > >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that > >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the > >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was > >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is > >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 24 21:48:35 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:48:35 -0500 Subject: finna Message-ID: The discussion of "I loves me some X" as potentially a hypervernacularism has reminded me of a use of 'finna' that didn't seem right to me. The context was HBO's new cop show, The Wire. A youngish, thugish African-American character who is cooperating with the cops asks something like " Are you finna go after them?" I'm sorry I don't have the exact quote. What struck me about this usage is that the cops were not immediately preparing to go after the bad guys. The usage in this context seemed to me equivalent to "Are you planning to go after them" and NOT "Are you about to go after them". I'm not a native speaker of "finna/fixin' to" but isn't immediacy required for it's usage? Maybe this feature doesn't operate the same way in AAVE as in white vernaculars that use it. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 01:29:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? For that matter, can you imagine anyone stupid enough to believe that anyone would be stupid enough to open the file that was attached to this message--and then follow the directions? The message: << Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm.It's very dangerous by corrupting your files. Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most common AV software can't detect or clean it. We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus. You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your PC. NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV monitor maybe cry when you run it. If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'. If you have any question,please mail to me. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-st14.mail.aol.com (rly-st14.mail.aol.com [172.20.75.167]) by air-xa02.mail.aol.com (v86_r1.16) with ESMTP id MAILINXA24-0724190525; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:05:25 -0400 Received: from rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by rly-st14.mail.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id SAA22864 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v86_r1.15) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD510-0724183812; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:38:12 -0400 Received: from Nirnmm ([207.191.206.34]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with SMTP id <20020724223748.HHSV16779.out005.verizon.net at Nirnmm> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:37:48 -0500 From: deviljunky To: RonButters at aol.com Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=H50dLrr1kuDq7CDo3NbMjE38 Message-Id: <20020724223748.HHSV16779.out005.verizon.net at Nirnmm> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:38:11 -0500>> From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 25 02:18:31 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:18:31 -0400 Subject: finna In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C9@col-mailnode03.col. missouri.edu> Message-ID: >I'm not a native speaker of "finna/fixin' to" but isn't immediacy required >for its usage? I don't think so. This may be a regional expression but the region must be very large. My Webster's Third doesn't say "slang" or "informal" or anything, although "informal" seems right to me. AHD4 says "chiefly southern US". Webster's Third seems to equate "fixing to" = "getting set to"/"being about to"/"preparing to"/"intending to". I think the basic sense is "preparing to". Some things don't take much preparation, so immediacy is implied: "He looked like he was fixing to throw up, so I stepped back quickly." Other things take longer, and I (Northron though I am) wouldn't blink at something like: "My son's fixing to apply to medical school next year." -- Doug Wilson From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 25 02:27:23 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:27:23 -0400 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? It must be a carefully targeted mailing. D From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 03:22:52 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:22:52 EDT Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: As it happens, I just received in the mail the Bas Bleu book catalog. On the last page is a review of "Sprezzatura: Fifty Ways Italian Genius Shaped the World." According to the review, it means "the art of effortless mastery." Steve Boatti From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:17:30 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:17:30 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > IIRC, it's just that: In the 1968 novel, the surgeons described themselves as "the pros from Dover" to give the impression that they were the golf pros at the Dover golf course. There is no Dover golf course, naturally, or at least the surgeons didn't have a particular golf course in mind. "Dover" was chosen as suggestive of golf courses in general and likely to fool the local golf pro into believing it was an actual course that he just couldn't place at the moment. > > In terms of what the phrase means more generally, I suppose it refers to pseudo-experts who give vague, manufactured credentials to imply that they are more knowledgeable than is really the case. > > John Baker > Gee, you mean like, Bruno Bettelheim? When I think back on how much damage he did to so many children and their families.... It has recently come up again for me. Did you know his PhD was actually in art history or something, and had nothing to do with psychology? And everyone swallowed his claims that his credentials had been lost during the war for thirty years. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:27:11 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:27:11 -0500 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get "virus warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane Campbell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:27 PM Subject: Re: stupid virus-spreader tricks > On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > > Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? > > It must be a carefully targeted mailing. > > D From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:32:28 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:32:28 -0500 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Just thought I would mention that I have never heard "catawampus" used like "cat's corner". I have always inferred the meaning as "crooked, mixed up, or FUBAR" (though from people too polite to use the latter, if they have any idea what it stands for). And yes, I have heard "catercorner" regularly (kat-ter-corner). I spent my first twenty-plus years in St Paul, MN, then ten plus years in SE Michigan. Mostly though, I heard it "kiddy corner" in MN. "catty corner" was one I hadn't heard until the last five years or so. I guess I have led a sheltered life after all (only lived in three different States and three countries including the US). -- Millie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 07:55:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 03:55:57 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism Message-ID: CORPORATE SOCIALISM Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get the money and we get the risk. MISC. It's a 2 1/2 hour drive to the Yalta airport, and a 2 1/2 flight. So it looks like I'll have no library time today, and that it'll take two days to get home. I have a 2 p.m. flight on Friday, and I'll arrive in New York, New York (so nice they named it twice) before 8 p.m. Not even a "BORN TO BE WILD--YALTA" T-shirt anywhere here! From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 25 12:28:19 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:28:19 -0400 Subject: finna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724214806.024bc0a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Doug Wilson said: >> This may be a regional expression but the region must be very large. My Webster's Third doesn't say "slang" or "informal" or anything, although "informal" seems right to me. AHD4 says "chiefly southern US". << Point of information on Web 3rd (assuming you mean the Merriam 3rd Unabridged) -- it should not be looked to for rulings on register. It is often silent on this, one of the reasons it received so much flak when it came out. No labels are given for many forms that ARE labeled in other dicts. Web 3rd's silence in many of these cases is not to be taken as indicating that the form is typical or nationwide. btw, I just discovered that Web 3rd is now available online, for an annual or monthly fee. Frank Abate From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 25 12:50:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:50:26 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism In-Reply-To: <0E8D4CB2.126770EB.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #CORPORATE SOCIALISM # # Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. #Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, #pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past #week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the #socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get #the money and we get the risk. I expected that sentence to end in "shaft". -- Mark A. Mandel From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 13:43:34 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:43:34 EDT Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: In a message dated 7/25/2002 2:28:52 AM, millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes: << Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get "virus warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie >> I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general literacy. This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as a second language or someone with only elementary control of written English. From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 25 14:22:58 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:22:58 -0400 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Yeah, concept WAS pretty stupid too. > ---------- > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:43 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: stupid virus-spreader tricks > > In a message dated 7/25/2002 2:28:52 AM, millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes: > > << Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get > "virus > > warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on > > their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to > > send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie >> > > I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general > literacy. > This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as > a > second language or someone with only elementary control of written > English. > > From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 25 14:35:17 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:35:17 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism Message-ID: I'm not sure I've forgiven Nader for his role in giving us President W --- or at least not sure I've forgiven him sufficiently to be amused by anything he writes. > ---------- > From: Mark A Mandel > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Corporate Socialism > > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > #CORPORATE SOCIALISM > # > # Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. > #Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, > #pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past > #week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the > #socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get > #the money and we get the risk. > > I expected that sentence to end in "shaft". > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 25 19:36:37 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:36:37 -0500 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what "redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean "a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to "reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. -Mai From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 25 19:44:06 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mai Kuha said: >Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what >"redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat >X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean >"a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the >web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to >"reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if >bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. Actually, I think of it as meaning "revisited". I'm sure this understanding was based on a contextual inference and not a dictionary consultation. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 25 19:51:49 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:36:37PM -0500, Mai Kuha wrote: > Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what > "redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat > X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean > "a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the > web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to > "reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if > bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. Jesse Sheidlower From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jul 25 20:42:46 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:42:46 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what >"redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat >X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean >"a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the >web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to >"reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if >bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. > >-Mai ~~~~~~~~ >>From Latin:/ reduco, reduxi, reductum/. To bring back, or lead back. [Trollope wrote a book titled /Phineas Redux/, to follow up the story of his character, Phineas Finn, from the book of the same name.] A. Murie From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 25 22:55:35 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:55:35 -0400 Subject: "X redux" Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower writes: > Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like > "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," > etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was > originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more > recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. D From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 03:12:59 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:12:59 -0500 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Thanks, everyone. There was no entry in the dictionaries I happen to own. mk From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 26 03:36:27 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:36:27 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: On 7/25/02 18:55, "Duane Campbell" wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower > writes: > >> Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like >> "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," >> etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was >> originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more >> recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. > > It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. It's been a pet word of magazine writers for about a decade, along with the devices such as "Mr. So-and-so needed a machin-truc and didn't know where to turn. Enter xyz." "Mrs. So-and-so said she has 'interests' (read 'cabana boys') which occupy her while her husband is away." Call it "coy world play." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 03:43:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:43:02 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 6:55 PM -0400 7/25/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower >writes: > >> Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like >> "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," >> etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was >> originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more >> recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. > >It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. And by me; I gave a paper a couple of years ago on "Welsh rarebit" as etymythology, called of course "Rarebit Redux". larry From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Jul 26 06:41:17 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:41:17 -0700 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <200207250400.g6P40M6S020417@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! Indigo Som indigo at well.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 26 13:11:26 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:11:26 -0700 Subject: Mondegreens--Marie, soda, positive anymore Message-ID: Some recent posts brought to mind two mondegreens. First, my dad, growing up in SW Philly, had a cousin who he thought was named Armory. It turned out that her name was Marie but every one called her "our Marie" to distinguish her from all the other Maries out there. Second, I was a big fan of the Banana Splits tv show growing up, especially the catchy theme song (also covered by the punk band The Dickies). I always thought it went: One banana, two banana, three banana, four Four bananas make a lot of soda anymore. And was going to post this as a great use of positive anymore. However, when checking the lyrics on the internet I found out they're really: One banana, two banana, three banana, four Four bananas make a bunch and so do many more Ugh! Anyway, thought y'all might enjoy those. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 26 16:13:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:13:23 -0500 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten Message-ID: Two of my campus' reference librarians worked on this, but it seems the book is no longer in existence, at least not in the Berlin Library. The book is listed in the catalogue, but the catalogue also specifies that one has to check whether individual items are actually available. In the case of Kochbuch für Israeliten, the message my librarian received from the State Library in Berlin is that the book was lost due to the war. With a moment's reflection I realized that as a Jewish cookbook, it was almost certainly one of the items taken off the shelves and burned by Nazi orders. Apparently, the only chance of the book's still being in existence would be if it somehow made its way earlier to a library outside of Nazi control. Gerald Cohen At 11:45 AM -0400 7/11/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN > > StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buecher der >Staatsbibliotek), also available at >http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. > I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable >results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, >it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. > Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR >ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any >library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by >inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 17:36:53 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:36:53 -0500 Subject: good (adv.) Message-ID: Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is from a dissertation abstract: "(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level of processing. (...)" LINGUIST List: Vol-13-1991. Fri Jul 26 2002. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 13.1991, Diss: Psycholing: Marini "The role played..." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 17:39:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Indigo Som wrote: #>This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives #>from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that #>despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the #>Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was #>sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is #>Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. # #My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People #sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! Ever since studying phonetics with John Ohala at Berkeley, I have fantasized about a firm with three partners, one Japanese, one Irish, and one Polish: Ohara, O'Hara, & Ohala. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 17:43:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:43:18 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: #Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is #from a dissertation abstract: # #"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups #performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level #of processing. (...)" Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" -- Mark A. Mandel From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Jul 26 18:00:55 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:00:55 +0100 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 26, 2002 1:43 pm -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > ># Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is ># from a dissertation abstract: ># ># "(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups ># performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic ># level of processing. (...)" > > Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" My reaction is also 'ugh' (I've become hyperconscious of this since moving to England). But it's interesting to note the different linguistic (i.e. linguists') reactions to changes and prescriptivism. The sentiment that 'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' is a frequent one. Are such sentiments equivalent to 'Nice to see that people are using their sleeves as napkins more often'? I mean, accepting the notion that no linguistic form is inherently 'better' than any other (so long as they're equivalently communicative), then rooting for the social underdog in linguistic change is no more linguistically valid than rooting for the prescribed form. And (not attributing this attitude to Mai--just thinking about it in classroom discussions) perhaps the rooting-for-the-underdog position is politically/socially simplistic. (I think increased casualness tends to be understood as increased social equality, but I don't think that's necessarily a valid link.) The other reason why this might not be 'nice to see' is that increased linguistic sameness across registers/social groups means decreased linguistic diversity! Ok, this is off the top of my head, just as I'm going out the door for the weekend. Not the time to be throwing casual, loaded statements around! Devilishly yours, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QH >>From UK: (01273) 678844 fax: (01273) 671320 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 fax: +44-1273-671320 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 26 18:01:36 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:01:36 -0700 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A related tangent: All my life until a few years ago, I (and everyone else I knew) found it quite natural to say "real good (bad, nice, cold, etc.)" I was peripherally aware that there were purists who thought everyone should say "really good," maintaining that "real" was an adjective, not an adverb, and never the twain should meet. But no one I knew paid any attention. In recent months it's occurred to me that I hardly ever say, or hear, "real good" anymore. I guess I use "really" if I use anything at all. I can't attribute this change (if it is one) to pressure from purists, since the purists' argument in this case barely appeared on anyone's radar screen. It seems to me that people generally use "really" a lot more than they used to, in contexts where they wouldn't have used any intensifier in times past. Maybe the two phenomena are connected. Has anyone else noticed this? Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 1:43 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > > #Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is > #from a dissertation abstract: > # > #"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups > #performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic > level #of processing. (...)" > > Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" > > -- Mark A. Mandel **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 18:07:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:07:00 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <10304974.1027710055@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: [Mark Mandel] #> Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" [Lynne Murphy] #My reaction is also 'ugh' (I've become hyperconscious of this since moving #to England). But it's interesting to note the different linguistic (i.e. #linguists') reactions to changes and prescriptivism. The sentiment that #'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' #is a frequent one. # #Are such sentiments equivalent to 'Nice to see that people are using their #sleeves as napkins more often'? For me it's esthetic, and a function of the way I learned the language wayyy back. "Good" as adverb this way is just alien to me and associated with (what I feel as) substandard, uneducated speech. Mind you, I keep that attitude separate from my professional linguistic opinion; but when I'm reading or writing for myself, or editing for someone else, that's how I react. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 26 18:14:22 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:14:22 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several prominent persons in Asia and America have used the Chinese surname O'Young (so written). Web search shows several current examples. IIRC there was an ambassador from ROC/Taiwan who used this spelling of his name. In most or all cases I believe this is the surname which is written "Ouyang" in more conventional transliteration. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 19:07:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:07:03 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:43 PM -0400 7/26/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > >#Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is >#from a dissertation abstract: ># >#"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups >#performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level >#of processing. (...)" > >Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" > My reaction, given the context-- ====== New Dissertation Abstract Institution: University of Rome, La Sapienza Program: PhD in linguistics Dissertation Status: Completed Degree Date: 2002 Author: Andrea Marini Dissertation Title: The role played by the right hemisphere in the organization of complex textual structures Linguistic Field: Psycholinguistics, Neurolinguistics Subject Language: Italian Dissertation Director 1: Carlo Caltagirone ========= is "non-native speaker", hence not really relevant for a "nice" or an "ugh". Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 19:13:00 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:13:00 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:39 PM -0400 7/26/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Indigo Som wrote: > >#>This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >#>from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >#>despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >#>Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >#>sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >#>Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. ># >#My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People >#sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! > >Ever since studying phonetics with John Ohala at Berkeley, I have >fantasized about a firm with three partners, one Japanese, one Irish, >and one Polish: Ohara, O'Hara, & Ohala. > You forgot the Hispanic partner, Ojala. (His brother pitched for the Mets and Red Sox.) L From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 26 19:23:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:23:34 -0400 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: When my brother was in the USAF he says he met an Iranian immigrant with the unlikely name of O'Brien who had entered the US with an ethnic name but that it had been changed in Boston (where he landed); may be apocryphal... _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 26 20:40:48 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:40:48 -0400 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <672208.3236670096@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM 7/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: >A related tangent: > >All my life until a few years ago, I (and everyone else I knew) found it >quite natural to say "real good (bad, nice, cold, etc.)" I was >peripherally aware that there were purists who thought everyone should say >"really good," maintaining that "real" was an adjective, not an adverb, and >never the twain should meet. But no one I knew paid any attention. > >In recent months it's occurred to me that I hardly ever say, or hear, "real >good" anymore. I guess I use "really" if I use anything at all. I can't >attribute this change (if it is one) to pressure from purists, since the >purists' argument in this case barely appeared on anyone's radar screen. >It seems to me that people generally use "really" a lot more than they used >to, in contexts where they wouldn't have used any intensifier in times >past. Maybe the two phenomena are connected. > >Has anyone else noticed this? > >Peter Mc. > Yes, I have, esp. in younger people, who tend to pronounce it, with exaggerated stress, as "rilly" = [rIli]. It appears to be newly idiomatic rather than a "learned correction" of adv. 'real'. Didn't we discuss this on the list some time back? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 26 21:08:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:20 -0700 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020726163437.00b17aa8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Oh wow--did we?? If so, my apologies for dredging it up. I have no recollection of it, so maybe it was during a time when I was away from the list. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 4:40 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Didn't we discuss this > on the list some time back? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 22:20:22 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:20:22 -0500 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <10304974.1027710055@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 7/26/02 1:00 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > (...) The sentiment that > 'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' > is a frequent one. (...) I'll have to think some more about all these good points that have been made. Just to clarify briefly, my intention was just to signal that I wasn't sending the item in as a tsk-tsk. Surprising mixtures of elements from different categories are often funny, so I enjoyed the sentence in the diss abstract (even if the author may well be a non-native speaker of English) in the same way as I enjoy that great dedication, "To whom it may concern", in the book "Conversational Routine", edited by Florian Coulmas. (A non-native speaker of English? Bingo! We've found the person guilty of spreading computer viruses and sending objectionable graphics!) -Mai From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 26 22:53:44 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:53:44 -0400 Subject: Switchblade Message-ID: Here's an 1894 cite for switchblade knife (OED has 1932): >>As they moved on, Martin, the defendant, was heard to say, "I fixed him;" and, further down the street, Martin showed Lyle the knife with which the stabbing was done. It is of the kind the negroes of that city [sc. Kansas City] call a "switch," and, it seems, in very general use among them. The defendant Martin was arrested next morning at his home, and the knife, with the handle and blade both still fresh with blood, was found in his house.<< State v. Martin, 124 Mo. 514, 28 S.W. 12 (Mo. 1894). John Baker From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 01:37:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:37:40 EDT Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 07/26/2002 3:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET writes: > When my brother was in the USAF he says he met an Iranian immigrant with the > unlikely name of O'Brien who had entered the US with an ethnic name but that > it had been changed in Boston (where he landed); may be apocryphal... You appear to be unfamiliar with the legends of what Ellis Island clerks did to European surnames. (According to one source, it was not the clerks at Ellis Island, which hired polyglots to examine the immigrants, but rather the fault of ticket clerks etc. on the various shipping lines on which the immigrants arrived.) Two very real examples: My wife's grandparents were from Lithuania with the surname Krevyanski (I don't know the spelling.) They exited Ellis Island with the Swedish surname of Krohn. (It means "crown" in Swedish and I understand was given to Swedes who received crown land on which to start farms, or some such.) A friend has the unlikely surname "McCrensky". It was something like "Makrenski" in the old country. Not Ellis Island, because according to what my maternal grandmother (born 1881) told me it occurred is England: Her surname was spelled "Wineburgh", a spelling I have never seen elsewhere as a surname. The story goes that her grandfather arrived in England from Germany as a result of the Revolution of 1848 (presumably he was involved with the losing side). Once in England he was told "That's not how you spell 'wine' and that's not how you spell 'burgh'. So he made a hypercorrection to the spelling of his family name. The classic story---and this one probably IS apochryphal---is the Asian with the name "Ole Olsen." The man ahead of him in line was asked for his name, and said "Ole Olsen." Then the Asian was asked for his name, and he said, "Sam Ting". - James A. Landau (whose own surname survived unchanged its arrival at Ellis Island in 1896) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Jul 27 01:54:38 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:54:38 -0400 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were the ones writing out the tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin of my Swedish last name in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians got last names in the early years of the 19th-century there were too many Johnsons, Andersons, Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming convention, so the Swedish equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people should use familar geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, &c.--which is how we got to be "mt-valley" people. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 01:56:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:56:25 EDT Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 07/24/2002 4:07:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to > #come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No > #matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." > > On the telephone, which is which, and how could they tell? I overcondensed the story. My cousin explained, to the Irishman, that he had CHANGED his name to Conn. It's been many years since I heard the story, and I'm not sure whether my cousin's original name was Kahn or Cohen or what. Another story, OT but worth telling: Mr. Conn was an advance man for President Johnson on a trip to some small town in Eastern Kentucky. Conn and a Secret Service agent came in ahead of time and started looking the place over, when they became aware of a suspicious stranger watching them. So they confronted the stranger, who turned out to be the sheriff who had thought THEY were suspicious. Once introduced, the sheriff couldn't do enough for them. "I've heard about this Kentucky moonshine, and I always wanted to find out what it was like," the Secret Service man said. No problem, the sheriff had confiscated some and sent over a jug. My cousin was aware of the quality control that does not go into moonshine, so he asked for beer instead. The sheriff said, "Sure, but don't tell your landlady where it came from---I arrested her husband for bootlegging." [Like a good many counties in Kentucky, including Bourbon County, the place was dry.] My cousin and the Secret Service man rounded up some cars for the motorcade. One of them was a convertible. "No way!" said the Secret Service man, and they hid the convertible somewhere. THe Presidential plane flew in, and President Johnson got off and promptly shook hands with my cousin. "He's nearsighted," said the Secret Service man. "He shakes hands with us all the time." Having gotten started, Johnson kept shaking hands until he had managed to shake his way into the hiding place where the convertible was stashed. And so nothing would do but that he ride in that car in his motorcade. So Johnson rode in the convertible, unaware that in the trunk of the car, having been placed there as the safest place to make sure nobody found it, was the jug of moonshine. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 27 03:23:27 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:23:27 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #You forgot the Hispanic partner, Ojala. (His brother pitched for the #Mets and Red Sox.) Would it were so! ;-)\ (Thanks. His name goes on the door.) -- Mark M. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 03:23:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:23:51 EDT Subject: Machinima Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MACHINIMA Not in the revised OED. I thought that I had posted something like this. From the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, 26 July 2002, pg. 13, col. 2: Hancock, 24, is among the first practitioners of machinima (pronounced ma-SHIN-i-ma), a form of digital filmmaking that piggybacks on the slick graphics that are easily available from computer games and uses them to produce animated movies quickly and cheaply. Machinima movies, which range from short comedies to science-fiction epics, are produced entirely on computers, eliminating the need to buy costly equipment, rent locations or hire actors. The films are then distributed free over the Internet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EDITORS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EDITORS! or DOES ANYBODY READ THIS STUFF? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, July 26-28, 2002, pg. M1, col. 3: Mr. Kindelberger, a retired economist, wrote hte 1978 economics classic "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises." The book, required reading for many Wall Street trainees and students of economic history, documents four centuries of boom-and-bust cycles. It ranges from a fleeting bubble in the market for Dutch tulips in 1636, to rampant speculation and subsequent collapse in railoroad shares in 1847 and 1857, to the Depression in the 1930s, to the rise and fall of Japan's property market in the late 1980s and early 1990s. (A 1978 book foretold of Japan's property market in the early 1990s?...A paragraph later, we are told that there was a 1996 edition--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 27 03:24:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:24:20 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #My reaction, given the context-- #====== #New Dissertation Abstract # #Institution: University of Rome, La Sapienza #Program: PhD in linguistics #Dissertation Status: Completed #Degree Date: 2002 #Author: Andrea Marini [...] #========= #is "non-native speaker", hence not really relevant for a "nice" or an "ugh". ah ha. I overlooked that. I would say, he (she?) gets a freebie on this. -- Mark M. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jul 27 03:20:49 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:20:49 -0500 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <000801c23510$9174e060$0bb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: There's a video out by an Alan Berliner who looked up other people with that name and had a dinner in New York for 12 of them. He did lots of research for the project, including interviewing people who actually worked at Ellis Island. They simply took the names from the ships' logs, so the changes were made before they got on the boat or after they had cleared through the Ellis facility. The video is "The Sweetest Sound (A film about Names)." It is marketed and distributed by New Video, 126 Fifth Ave, 15th Fl, New York NY 10011. Alan Berliner is a professional (free-lance) film maker. DMLance on 7/26/02 8:54 PM, David Bergdahl at einstein at FROGNET.NET wrote: > I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were the ones writing out the > tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin of my Swedish last name > in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians got last names in the > early years of the 19th-century there were too many Johnsons, Andersons, > Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming convention, so the Swedish > equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people should use familar > geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, &c.--which is how we > got to be "mt-valley" people. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Sat Jul 27 03:28:39 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:28:39 -0400 Subject: Machinima Message-ID: "Machinima" ("machine" + "cinema", sort of) was also featured recently in a 1,200-word article in the The New York Times:: "Machinima movies, which range from short comedies to science-fiction epics, are produced entirely on computers, eliminating the need to buy costly equipment, rent spectacular locations or hire glamorous actors. The films are then distributed free over the Internet." --Matthew Mirapaul, "Computer Games as the Tools for Digital Filmmakers," The New York Times, July 22, 2002 Paul http://www.logophilia.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 10:44:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:44:08 EDT Subject: Technical Passport; How to Speak Alaskan Message-ID: MISC Yes, the Friday, July 26th IHT story was also by Matthew Mirapaul of the New York Times. I didn't sit next to the wife & kids on this Lufthansa flight, but I did sit next to a woman from Spain who looks like Penelope Cruz. The only downside to a date this weekend is that I have to clean up this apartment. Around Yalta, there were many food sellers by the side of the road. Think of apple road stands in upsate NY, and multiply by five. I asked the "no slang in Ukraine" kid about it, and he said it was the same thing as Georgia--the nuts and grape juice thing on a string. But I saw that it was different. We drove to the airport. We passed one, two, three...thirty of these things. The "seagull in Yalta" tour guide, who knew very well that I was interested in Ukraine food, said NOTHING. Oh, what the hell, I'll ask. "WHAT ARE THESE?" "Sweet onion," she said. It was not the same as Georgia! I waited for the next line: Do you want to stop and see it? Amazingly, with two Ukraine tour guides, that was never offered. I tipped the kid well and told him to e-mail me library info on the oldest Ukraine cookbooks, but don't hold your breath. Mongolian passport photos I need now...I just realized that this conflicts with the NYU Presidential Installation dinner date Allan Metcalf gave me for September 26th. Write to Allan if you're interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TECHNICAL PASSPORT Not in OED. Several web hits. There was a sign about "technical passport" for your vehicle at Kiev's airport. It's a license to drive that vehicle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN This was sent on June 16th (before my Alaska trip), but I see that it's in my mail now (July 26). HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN edited by Mike Doogan Fairbanks: Epicenter Press 64 pages, paperback, $4.95 1993 Pg. 5: Alaska; Alaskan Permanent Fund; Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend. Pg. 6: Alaska tuxedo; Alaskan; Alaskans; Alcan; Aleut. Pg. 7: Anchorage; ANWR. Pg. 8: Arctic Entry; Artic haze. Pg. 9: Athabaskan; Aurora Borealis; Babiche. Pg. 10: Baleen; Banya; Barrow. Pg. 11: Bear paws; Beaver fever; Bethel. Pg. 12: Bidarka; Billiken; Black ice; Blanket toss. Pg. 13: Blazo; Blazo box. Pg. 14: Blue ticket; Bloomer; Bootle. Pg. 15: Bottom fishing; Borough; Breakup. Pg. 16: Breakup boots; Bug dope; Bunny boots; The Bush. Pg. 17: Bush pilot; Cabbage; Cabin. Pg. 18: Cabin fever; Cache. Pg. 19: Camp robber; Carry-on. Pg. 20: The Chain; Cheechako; Chinook; Cicely. Pg. 21: Cleanup; Cold; Cold snap. Pg. 22: Combat fishing; Corking. Pg. 23: Dip netting; Dog musher; Dog mushing; Dog lot. Pg. 24: Dog team; Dutch. Pg. 25: Duct tape; Ear pull. Pg. 26: Eskimo ice cream; Eskimo yo-yo; Eyak. Pg. 27: Fairbanks; Feds. Pg. 28: Fireweed; Fish camp; Fish trap. Pg. 29: Fish wheel; Forget-me-not; Four wheeler. Pg. 30: Freeze-up; Galloping glacier; Gangline; Glacier. Pg. 31: Glacier bear; Greenie; Gum boot. Pg. 32: Gussuk; Gwichin; Haida; Halibut. Pg. 33: Hanging glacier; Head-bolt heater; Hickel Highway. Pg. 34: Honey bucket; Honey bucket wagon; Hoochino. Pg. 35: Hooligan; Ice bridge; Ice cellar; Ice fog. Pg. 36: Ice pool; Iceworm. Pg. 37: Iditarod; Inside Passage; Inupiat. Pg. 38: Jueneau; Kashim. Pg. 39: Kenai; Kenai River; Ketchikan. Pg. 40: Knuckle hop; Kodiak; Kotzebue. Pg. 41: Kuspuk; Lead dog; Ling cod. Pg. 42: The Lower 48; Midnight sun; Moose dropping. Pg. 43: Moose gooser; Mosquito; Mount McKinley. Pg. 44: Mukluks; Mukluk telegraph; Muktuk. Pg. 45: Muskeg; Native; Nome. Pg. 46: North Slope; No-See-Ums; Oosik; Outside. Pg. 47: Outsiders; Overflow; The Panhandle; Paniqtaq. Pg. 48: Permafrost; Pilot bread--Big, round crackers that keep well, which makes them a staple in the Bush; The Pipeline. Pg. 49: Poke; Poochki; Potlatch; Prince William Sound; Prudhoe Bay. Pg. 50: Qiviut; Quaq; Railbelt; RATNET. Pg. 51: Ratting; Seal hook; Seward; Sheefish. Pg. 52: Sitka; Skookum; Slavic. Pg. 53: Sled dog racing; Sluice box. Pg. 54: Snagging; Sourdough; Sourdough hotcakes. Pg. 55: Spenard divorce; Squaw candy--A term for dried strips of salmon that was heard more often in the past than in the politically correct present.; Starring; Stateside. Pg. 56: Stink heads; Subsistence; Summer; Sundog. Pg. 57: Taku; Three seasons--Alaska only has three: winter, breakup and road construction.; Tlingit. Pg. 58: Trail shoe; Tsimshian; Tundra; Ugruk. Pg. 59: Ulu; Umiak; Village; Wanigan. Pg. 60: White knuckles; Williwaw; Wind chill. Pg. 61: Yukon stove; The Yukon Quest. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 12:13:13 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:13:13 EDT Subject: Garage Wine Message-ID: From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 26-28 July 2002, pg. P1, col. 4, "Wine" by William Echikson: They should also be careful about rare "garage wines" with short track records. Google has about 400 "garage wine" hits, with about 20 in the newsgroups. The term has been used in the past five years. Google also for "vins de garage," and check Nexis and the usual databases. MASSANDRA WINE: The Crimean area of the Ukraine ("Crimea doesn't pay") is famous for its Massandra Wines. I had a wine-tasting of nine of them. They're good! _Very_ good! If you like sweet wine, Yalta go there and get some. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 17:46:30 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: Re: "I loves me some X" redux > As for the qualifier, consider: > > I stopped and bought cigarettes. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes. > I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. > I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. > I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. > I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. > I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) > > -- Doug Wilson I lived in Minnesota (St Paul, so it was somewhat "urban") for the first 21 years of my life. Every one of those above sound perfectly grammatical to me. So, it is not just because Dennis is from "the South". Or even because he is "low-class" (or was that "lower-class"?). ;-) The only ones that sounds even a little like they entered from "some other dialect" (African-American, Southern, or otherwise) are the first starred one, and the un-starred one right above it. Those, I cannot imagine someone over the age of forty (at least that I know) using naturally in Minnesota, so they may be a more recent addition as BEV "traveled" more in the sixties seventies. That's my opinion, anyway. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 17:57:28 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:57:28 -0500 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Sorry if bringing this up again is getting annoying, but I was just realizing as I read Donald's and Anne's posts that I have heard the "across the street and diagonal a bit" usage also. Not just at an intersection, but maybe in the middle of the block. It never occured to me until all this that it was a "strange" usage because it did not involve corners at all. That would be semantic extension at work, I suppose. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:02:49 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: Are you sure the Simpsons got their first? After all, they came out much much later than M*A*S*H. :-) I do like the phonological basis for Dover. It seems it woudl not have caught on at all if it hadn't just "sounded" right. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from > >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. > >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) > > > >DMLance > > > Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:18:18 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:18:18 -0500 Subject: Pat the Bunny Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Aman" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun > I recently disabused an adult, named Patrick, that the childrens book titled > Pat The Bunny was not about a rabbit named Pat(rick). Despite his advanced > age (30-odd), Patrick was crestfallen. Actually, I had always assumed (even as a small child) that the book was Pat (Verb) the Bunny, an admonition or direction for the reader. When I started as an assistant manager at Doubleday Books in 1993, I ran into repeated references to the Bunny as being named "Pat", not just in customers' conversations, but also in some written materials on the "significance" of Pat, The Bunny in introducing more interactive children's books, where the children got to actually do something. Since then, it has been really unclear most of the time I see it referenced, which meaning it is assumed to have. The times when you can tell, it seems to be predominantly the name-meaning (as in about 75%). Okay, I am WAY too interested in children's books, but it keeps me hopping (hah!), trying to keep up with explosion in that literary genre in the last twenty years! -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:22:46 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:22:46 -0500 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: > I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general literacy. > This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as a > second language or someone with only elementary control of written English. Then, you must not have received too awfully many virus hoaxes. Much of the alleged English-speaking population on the Internet does not write much better than that. Seriously. Most of the ones I see are filled with misspellings and/or ungrammatical phrases. They are getting forwarded to me in spite of it (and not ironically), so someone obviously believed it was real! The only ones that are well-written are the ones designed to sound like they are actually from a virus software company, or Bill Gates, or someone else you are obviously expected to trust. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:41:15 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:41:15 -0500 Subject: (OT) Tulips in Holland Message-ID: Funny you should bring up that "bubble" in 1636 Holland story. I just included that in a paper we distributed to some clients on a Credit Union member list at work. Apparently, that whole thing lasted less than one month, and authorities let people who got caught up in it off the hook for only 3.5 percent of the contract price. That's apparently where the legend of a "disastrous price decline" comes from, referred to as "tulip mania" in economics circles. The book referred to is Peter Garber's "Famous First Bubbles". Just thought you'd like to know, if you didn't already. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: Machinima .... > EDITORS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EDITORS! > or > DOES ANYBODY READ THIS STUFF? > > From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, July 26-28, 2002, pg. M1, col. 3: > > Mr. Kindelberger, a retired economist, wrote hte 1978 economics classic > "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises." The book, > required reading for many Wall Street trainees and students of economic > history, documents four centuries of boom-and-bust cycles. It ranges from a > fleeting bubble in the market for Dutch tulips in 1636, to rampant > speculation and subsequent collapse in railoroad shares in 1847 and 1857, to > the Depression in the 1930s, to the rise and fall of Japan's property market > in the late 1980s and early 1990s. > > (A 1978 book foretold of Japan's property market in the early 1990s?...A > paragraph later, we are told that there was a 1996 edition--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 27 18:53:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:53:41 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <009d01c23597$d2be0ec0$6f01a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: >Are you sure the Simpsons got their first? After all, they came out much >much later than M*A*S*H. :-) Well, yup, since M*A*S*H never got to Springfield at all... >I do like the phonological basis for Dover. It seems it woudl not have >caught on at all if it hadn't just "sounded" right. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Horn" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:20 PM >Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > >> >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from >> >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than >Dovers. >> >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) >> > >> >DMLance >> > >> Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 27 18:53:04 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:53:04 -0400 Subject: honey do Message-ID: On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous contexts. Recent ex: When a maintenance worker friend of mine at UT retired last year, I asked him how he would spend his time after retirement. He said, laughing, that he had a parttime job lined up and a long list of honey dos. (I cannot find the term in DARE.) Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jul 27 19:07:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:07:10 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 02:53:04PM -0400, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of > the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about > household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous > contexts. Recent ex: This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 27 19:14:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:14:22 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:53 PM -0400 7/27/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of >the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about >household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous >contexts. Recent ex: > >When a maintenance worker friend of mine at UT retired last year, I asked >him how he would spend his time after retirement. He said, laughing, that >he had a parttime job lined up and a long list of honey dos. > >(I cannot find the term in DARE.) > >Bethany I've usually heard it immediately explicated (with the meaning you mention), as "Honey do this, honey do that." larry From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 27 19:14:10 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:14:10 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: <20020727190710.GA14662@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with >a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred >or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Right (re RHHDAS, where is is honey-do, honeydew) - I am surprised to find it as slang, not as a regionalism. Is it used everywhere in the US? I am sure it was used much earlier than 1990, though I have no cites. If I run into any in my tape collction, I'll let that be known. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 19:51:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:51:11 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich (31 January 1985) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 31 January 1985, pg. 3: _New top state judge: Abolish_ _grand juries & let us decide_ By MARCIA KRAMER and FRANK LOMBARDI IN A BID to make prosecutors more accountable for their actions, Chief Judge Sol Wachtler has proposed that the state scrap the grand jury system of bringing criminal indictments. Wachtler, who became the state's top judge earlier this month, said district attorneys now have so much influence on grand juries that "by and large" they could get them to "indict a ham sandwich." From pg. 46: _New York State's top judge speaks out_ _DAILY NEWS_ _NewsMaker_ _Chief Judge Sol Wachtler_ Sol Wachtler, newly appointed chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals, was questioned at a Daily News NewsMaker lunch this week. (What did Sol eat??--ed.) Following are excerpts from his discussion with senior Daily News news executives and members of the editorial board and news staff. (...) (Col. 3--ed.) A: (...) Along with that, we must rationalize the appellate process. In New York, if a trial judge sneezes, a lawyer can go up to the Appellate Division. (Col. 4--ed.) Q: And the death penalty? A: I referred to it in a speech once as being the chicken soup of politics--it can't hurt. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 27 20:24:43 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:24:43 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| sure it was used much earlier than 1990, though I have no |o| cites. If I run Must. I grew up during in the 50s and remember during the melon season hearing "I've got honeydews on my Honey, do" from the adults in our farming community (rhythm & intonation echoes Frost's "and miles to go before I sleep") with about the same meaning, used mainly as a means of escaping an invitation to sit a spell during melon harvest season. I also recall an uncle who delivered sacks of his garden melons (as well as zukes & cucks) to neighbors excusing himself with the funny, "Well, gotta go. More honeydews on my honey do to do, too, toodahloo" as well as Honey Do used to distinguish household chores from farm chores. Of course, honey do and honey dew could be switched in and out as necessary. I seem to vaguely recall a novelty song that was popular back then where the lyrics played on honey do, perhaps a Phil Harris piece along the lines of Dark Town Poker Club and That's What I Like About the South. rhk From kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG Sun Jul 28 00:50:49 2002 From: kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:50:49 -0500 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: They all sound fine, but the first starred item would only sound natural coming out of the mouth of an Irishman. -Jan Linguistics/Speech Path. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 28 02:01:34 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 22:01:34 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: <20020727190710.GA14662@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with > a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred > or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Here's an antedating: 1986 _Wash. Post_ 23 Dec. [no pagination given] (Dow Jones) Ross said he was eager to return to work. "I'm kind of looking forward to it," he said. "I've had some free time. I did a lot of 'honey-dos' . . . You know, 'Honey, do this' and 'Honey, do that.' " Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Jul 28 04:37:20 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:37:20 -0400 Subject: honey do Message-ID: A little earlier: "Contests ranged from the men's and women's 25-meter free-style swim to the "Honey-Do Hustle" track event, in which couples shuffled down a line double-quick with a slippery balloon sandwiched between them." Washington Post, July 8, 1984. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sat 7/27/2002 10:01 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: honey do On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with > a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred > or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Here's an antedating: 1986 _Wash. Post_ 23 Dec. [no pagination given] (Dow Jones) Ross said he was eager to return to work. "I'm kind of looking forward to it," he said. "I've had some free time. I did a lot of 'honey-dos' . . . You know, 'Honey, do this' and 'Honey, do that.' " Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 06:35:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:35:14 EDT Subject: Honey do / Honeydew Message-ID: HONEY DO / HONEY DEW "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. 10+. Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first line is "Come on honey do, and I'll show it to you." "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave Kerker, 1894. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: MISC. ...While I was out getting a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman I met yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. It's a good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I can't support a frog. ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking Violations monthly work calendar: _Adjournment Policy_ Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not allowed--"never"--an adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was this reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a particular senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to rule negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the respondent to get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 08:49:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:49:17 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: _POGROMS._ The Russian word _pogrom_, which literally means "disturbance" or "riot," has in the course of time come to denote all violent attacks directed against Jews in particular. Up to 1881 the only pogroms were three in Odessa (1821, 1859 and 1871) and a minor one in Akkerman in 1862. After 1881, however, they became a conti9nual menace and almost a "normal" phenomenon of Jewish life in Russia; as time went on they became increasingly cruel in character. From April to June, 1881, a series of pogroms broke out in larger and smaller places in southern and southwestern Russia; in the other parts of the empire there was only one, at Warsaw in December. --THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., NY, vol. 8, pg. 559 (1969). When I went to the Odessa synagogue (as I stated), it had no information at all to educate me about the history of Jews in Odessa or in the Ukraine. OED has 1882 for "pogrom," then 1905. Merriam-Webster uses a 1903 date. Clearly, I should come up with something in 1881, if not earlier. Does the full text of the NEW YORK TIMES have anything? The Making of America database (Cornell) has "Pogromnia" in the November 1877 HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE, pg. 810. It's the Russian name of a volcano in Alaska. The HARPER'S WEEKLY full text database also doesn't have anything. I went to request Joachim Tarnopol's NOTICES HISTORIQUES ET CARACTERISTIQUES SUR LES ISRAELITES D'ODESS (1855), but it was curiously missing. NYPL is the ONLY library that has it (if it does have it). I'll have to check out Tarnopol's 1868 book on Russian Jews, which the NYPL has on microfilm. THE JEWS OF ODESSA: A CULTURAL HISTORY, 1794-1881 (Stanford University Press, 1985) by Steven J. Zipperstein has a fine bibliography (Zipperstein relied heavily on the "missing" Tarnopol book), but it's not much of a book itself. Jewish food is hardly described. Jewish music is hardly described. "Pogrom" is described, but not well enough to provide clear citations for the word (which is not even present in the Glossary on pages 157-158). I'm going through some of the Zipperstein bibliography's books, but in the meantime, if anybody has a "pogrom," please buzz in. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Jul 28 08:52:12 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:52:12 +0100 Subject: Serrancified Message-ID: Three weeks ago, I posted the following request: > A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of > American dialect usage. Can anyone help? > > > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a > > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three > > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it. It > > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat". Phonetically: "My > > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or > > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its > > origins. Belated thanks to those who helped me out. The resulting piece went out in my World Wide Words newsletter yesterday and provoked quite a large response. It looks from comments as though the expression is best known in Canada and that it was originally something like "My sufficiency has been suffonsified and anything additional would be superfluous". That form of the word is the one that is most common in online searches, where the Canadian focus is also obvious. One subscriber pointed out that it appears in a passage in Margaret Atwood's novel, "Cat's Eye". She has two teenage girls, living in Toronto in the 1940s, who say, "Are you sufficiently sophonisified?". I also found a restaurant reviewer in Vancouver whose pen name is "Sufficiently Suffonsified". Oddly, there's also a 1999 record by the Austrian band Cunning Dorx with the title "Paradigms Suffonsified". It would seem that the word is not defunct, though belonging to an earlier generation. Any further information would be most welcome! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 28 09:59:58 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:59:58 -0700 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: Members of my sorority (African American, college graduates) have referred to their husbands as "honey-dos" for at least as long as I can remember (from the '60's). --- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > HONEY DO / HONEY DEW > > "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? > > "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. > > "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. > 10+. > Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. > > "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. > > "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first > line is "Come > on honey do, and I'll show it to you." > > "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. > > "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. > > "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave > Kerker, 1894. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------- > O.T.: MISC. > > ...While I was out getting a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman > I met > yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. > It's a > good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I > can't > support a frog. > ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking > Violations > monthly work calendar: > > _Adjournment Policy_ > Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the > documentation > the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of > guilt. > Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the > documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. > > The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not > lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that > would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not > allowed--"never"--an > adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? > Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! > > (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was > this > reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept > the sworn > testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a > particular > senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to > rule > negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the > respondent to > get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 10:36:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 06:36:25 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: Jewish Encyclopedia, volume IX (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1905) article on "Odessa": page 377 column 1 "[Odessa] has been an important factor in the cultural life of the Jews of Russia. It is believed that when the Russians took possession in 1789 of the Turkish fortress of Khadzhi-Bel---named Odessa in 1794---Jews were already living in the place....in 1795 the Jewish population had increased to 240 persons of both sexes. Most of them came from Volhynia, Podolia, and Lithuania. Later on Jews arrived from Galicia and Germany...The Galician and German Jews were styled "Broder" Jews, after the city of Brody." page 378 column 1 "The community did not escape the horrors of the pogrom. Indeed, the very first pogrom in Russia occurred in Odessa in the year 1859. This was in reality not a Russian but a Greek pogrom; for the leaders and almost all of th participants were [column 2] Greek sailors from ships in the harbor, and local Greeks who joined them. The pogrom occurred on a Christian Easter; and the local press, in no wiise unfriendly to the Jews, attempted to transform it into an accidental fight, the Greek colony at that time being dominant in the administration as well as in the commerce of Odessa. Further pogroms occurred in 1871, 1881, and 1886." Also volume X (1905) article "Russia" page 527 column 1: "The prevailing ignorance in foreign countries concerning these terible conditions was due largely to the suppression by the censorship of any mention in the Russian newspapers of the brutal acts of the police. But isolated notices which found their way into the foreign press created a wave of indignation throughout Europe, and forced even Pobiedonostzev [procurator-general, appointed 1880] to make apologetic explanations. In an interview with Arnold White he declared that "everybody was sorry for the brutality of the chief of police in Moscow." It is well known, however, that the latter official merely carried out the instructions of Grand Duke Sergius, who himself applied in practice Pobiedonostzev's teachings. Speaking of these, the historian Mommsen said (Nov. 1, 1903): "Is it not possible to arrest the decay of a greatly vaunted civilization, the suicde of Russia?...But we may still hope that the statement of a great empire and the sovereign arbiter of Europe may no longer be dominated by the blind action of a resuscitated Torquemada." Both the above articles were written by Herman Rosentahl, "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library" From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jul 28 11:57:09 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:57:09 -0400 Subject: MOre Re: honey do Message-ID: from a friend (I asked if he knew the term): ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:29:21 -0700 Subject: Re: honey do sure, but I don't know where it came from. It is usually used when a man describes his saturday as a 'honey do day". Or talks about a list of 'honey dos" --- Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 15:19:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:19:38 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library, wrote that in 1905? The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. Something seems wrong here. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 18:00:48 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:00:48 EDT Subject: stick to business, please Message-ID: And this has WHAT to do with ADS-L business. Will somebody please tell this guy to stick to the topic? If I wanted to hear about the difficulties that people have with their jobs I would subscribe to ABS-L. In a message dated 7/28/2002 2:35:53 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking Violations monthly work calendar: _Adjournment Policy_ Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not allowed--"never"--an adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was this reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a particular senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to rule negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the respondent to get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) >> From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 28 19:56:56 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:56:56 -0400 Subject: stick to business, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| And this has WHAT to do with ADS-L business. Will somebody |o| please tell this |o| guy to stick to the topic? If I wanted to hear about the |o| difficulties that |o| people have with their jobs I would subscribe to ABS-L. |o| Oh, I dunno. I'm inclined to overlook a good bit in this case. After all, looking back over my deleted files for the last couple of months I see considerably more quality posts from Landau than from Butters. Regardless of what the subscription rules say, the fact is this: the list--any list--belongs to those who post, those who contribute to the intellectual life of the community, those who participate. If you'd like the raise the quality of discussion, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. Otherwise, may I direct your attention to the DEL key? I used it to good effect last week during some interminable discussion about...well, I forget...but it went on forever. rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 22:52:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 18:52:39 -0400 Subject: Matryoshka, Matreshka, Matrushka; Doll Hospital (1900) Message-ID: MATRYOSHKA, MATRESHKA, MATRUSHKA My tour guide wrote it out for me as "matrushka." On further examination, OED has an entry under "matryoshka." The revised entry is clearly not very good. The first dating is from 1948, then 1964 and 1982. Alternate spellings (always important for a foreign borrowing) are not mentioned. OED has 1937 and 1967 for "Russian doll." It is not in Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com) under any spelling. The Google results: MATRYOSHKA 9,000 hits MATRESHKA 2,370 hits MATRUSHKA 547 hits The NYPL has a book titled THE MATRUSHKA DOLL (NY: R. Marek, 1979) by Barbara Fischman Traub. There is a "matryoshka" book, but from only 1969. The 1990s gave us Becky Hickox Ayres's MATRESHKA (Doubleday, 1992) and Corinne Demas Bliss's THE LITTLEST MATRYOSHKA (Hyperion, 1999). "Matryoshka," a poem by Melissa Green, was published in THE YALE REVIEW, April 2002. An article on the Matryoshka Museum was published in RUSSIAN LIFE, January/February 2002. I think it's on the ProQuest database. "The first museum devoted to Russia's most famous souvenir, the matryoshka nesting doll, has opened in Moscow in the Fund of Popular Craft." The article states that the doll is a century old (from about 1900), and that it came to Russia from similar Japanese dolls. I didn't find the word easily in database searches or in doll books, but I'll keep looking. --------------------------------------------------------------- DOLL HOSPITAL I thought I'd query the good folks at my nearby doll hospital. It was closed today, though. The New York Doll Hospital, Inc., 787 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY 10022, (212) 838-7527, states "ANTIQUE DOLLS & TOYS BOUGHT & SOLD." The sign states "SINCE 1900." OED's first entry for "doll hospital" is 1917. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 00:15:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:15:40 -0400 Subject: Matreshki (1907) Message-ID: I forgot to add that "matrioshka" has 5,150 Google hits. RUSSIAN FOLK ART by Alison Hilton Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana University Press 1995 Pg. 127: The most famous type of wooden toy was the _matreshka_ (commonly rendered in English as "matrioshka"), usually shaped as a peasant woman in a _sarafan_, hollow inside to hold a whole series of smaller nesting dolls. Legends about the origin of the form related it to an ancient mother goddess of Siberian peoples. Travelers told of a mysterious golden statue, hollow and containing many layers of shells of gold. Regardless of any ancient source, the wooden _matreshka_, comfortably rounded and containing a multitude of offspring, was a familiar symbol of fertility and security. The idea of nesting figures may actually have come from Japanese toys. The first documented Russian _matreshka_ was designed in the 1890s by Sergei Maliutin, a professional artist and member of the Talashkino folk art revival group; it was shaped on a lathe and carved by the carpenter Zvezdochkin. This was an eight-piece doll, the figure of a woman in a modest _sarafan_ and kerchief, inside her a boy, then a girl, and so on, the smallest piece a baby in swaddling clothes. ARTS AND CRAFTS IN LATE IMPERIAL RUSSIA: REVIVING THE KUSTAR ART INDUSTRIES, 1870-1917 by Wendy R. Salmond Cambridge University Press 1996 Pg. 85: The first new toy to be produced at Segiev Posad designed entirely by a professional Russian artist was the matreshka doll (Fig. 27). (Pg. 86--ed.) Contrary to popular belief today, the matreshka was not an ancient folk symbol or even a traditional kustar toy,(21) but was designed in 1891 by the young artist Sergei Maliutin for Maria Mamontova's Children's Education toy shop on Leontievskii Lane.(22) In response to Mamontova's commission for a doll inspired by a Japanese nesting toy depicting the Sage Furkumu, Maliutin created a barrel-shaped peasant girl dressed in white kerchief and sarafan, red cheeked, broad smiling, and clutching a black rooster under her right arm. This "matreshka" (the diminutive of Matrena, a common peasant woman's name) opened to reveal a girl, within which was a smaller girl, and so on, until at the very core lay a swaddled infant. Maliutin's design was produced and sold at Children's Education until 1898, when the store closed down and its stock, including the matreshka, was transferred to the Moscow zemstvo's workshop at Sergiev Posad. The new toy immediately went into production at the training workshop, and as volume increased into the millions the painting and finishing of the dolls were entrusted to a separate workshop operated by the Ivanov brothers. Pg. 228 (Notes): 21. There have been several attempts to find the matreshka's origins in ancient folk culture, but the myth of the matreshka as an authentic kustar toy had taken hold as early as 1907: "Matreshki are rather reminiscent of the well-known nesting eggs (and) were actually developed from them. Some shrewd kustar took it into his head to replace the egg with a fat conical _baba_ in a kerchief with a rooster under her arm." "Kustarnoe tsarstvo v Sergievskom posade," _Niva_, 39 (1907), 642. 22. Children's Education was founded in 1883 by Maria Alekseevna Mamontova (?-1904), wife of the publisher Anatolii Mamontov and Savva Mamontov's sister-in-law. (...) Children's Education was represented in the Women's Section of the Russian Section at the World's Columbian Exposition held in Chicago in 1893, along with the Moscow Kustar Museum, Abramtsevo, and a number of other kustar workshops operated by noblewomen. See no. 620 in the section on women's work in _Catalogue of the Russian Section, World's Columbian Exposition, 1893, Chicago_ (St. Petersburg, 1893). (I haven't checked that, but it's an early cite if there in 1893--ed.) Pg. 232 (Notes): 87. (...) As an example of foreign sales on the eve of the First World War, the matreshka doll, produced at 30-35 rubles per hundred, retailed in America for $1.00 each (Vvedenskii, _U Sergievskogo igrushechnika_, 57). (Again, OED's first citation in the revised entry is 1948, after the Second World War--ed.) From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 02:28:24 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:28:24 EDT Subject: stick to business, please Message-ID: I wasn't talking about Landau, I was talking about Popik. And I generally do delete his postings without complaint, knowing that a lot of what he posts are highly valued by others. (It is worth pointing out, though, that it takes time to delete items, and some people have to pay for their computer time--I have had to work with very slow computers in cybercafes in foreign countries where getting rid of all of the unwanted messages was a real problem). Moreover, we are archiving all of this stuff, I assume. The real problem with the case at hand, though, was that on this occasion when I opened something that DID seem interesting to me, all I got was a guy complaining about his job. This is not a "contribution to the intellectual life of the community." Nor is this a matter of the QUALITY of the discussion, but rather of the NATURE of the discussion. Mr. Popik could set up a web page and publish all his observations on his life to his heart's content, and all the people who want to read what he writes could sign on. Or he could start Barry's List and do his self-reporting that way. The "D" in "ADS-L" stands for "dialect." I'm happy to cast a very wide net here, and I have NEVER complained about any of the antedatings and the seemingly endless harping about the origins of lexical items as WINDY CITY and BIG APPLE, much less the incredible flow of food and drink terms. These are things that have to do with American English, and some people obviously like to see them. On the other hand, if we are willing to proceed "regardless of what the subscription rules say" and not remind people that there are rules, then why have a specialized list at all? In a message dated 7/28/2002 3:56:44 PM, Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes: << Oh, I dunno. I'm inclined to overlook a good bit in this case. After all, looking back over my deleted files for the last couple of months I see considerably more quality posts from Landau than from Butters. Regardless of what the subscription rules say, the fact is this: the list--any list--belongs to those who post, those who contribute to the intellectual life of the community, those who participate. If you'd like the raise the quality of discussion, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. Otherwise, may I direct your attention to the DEL key? I used it to good effect last week during some interminable discussion about...well, I forget...but it went on forever. >> From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 03:48:44 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:48:44 -0400 Subject: Pastrami Message-ID: An item from Dave Wilton's Web discussion site (quoted here with permission of the poster). I recall the "pastrami" etymology was discussed here a while back. Maybe this is of interest to some here. ---------- Why should Romanian "pastrama" be related to the Romanian verb "pastra"? Just because they look alike? Remember, there are folk-etymologies in all languages, not only in English. Perhaps when the word was adopted into Romanian it was given the form "pastrama" rather than "pastirma" [or whatever] simply to match the verb "pastra" [diacritical marks omitted throughout my message]. Note that the apparent cognates have "t[vowel]r" while Romanian alone has "tr[vowel]" (well, Moldavian has it too, but it's essentially a dialect of Romanian) ... e.g., Albanian "pasterma", Bulgarian "pasturma", Hungarian "pasztormany", Modern Greek "pastourmas", Armenian "basturma", Lebanese Arabic "bastirma", Georgian "basturma", Tatar "bastyrma". Now of course it's possible that the Romanian word was adopted into Ottoman Turkish and spread throughout the Ottoman territory after modification. However, J. A. C. Greppin's paper "The Etymology of _pastrami_" (J. English Linguistics 21:125-6 [1988]) (upon which I am leaning heavily) makes the following arguments against the Romanian/Latin origin: (1) There is no productive "-ma" suffix in Romanian. (2) Standard Romanian etymological dictionaries see "pastrama" as a Turkish loanword. (3) The word is attested in Hungarian much earlier than in Romanian (1626 vs. 1792). A correspondent finds Turkish "pasdirma" meaning "dried salted beef" supposedly from the 17th Century, but in an English translation dated 1834. Note that the Balkan/Ottoman/Middle-East referent is not like our pastrami. The modern Romanian-English dictionary translates "pastrama" as "pemmican". Greppin points out that the conventional Turkish etymology of "basdirma"/"pastirma" probably includes some folk-etymology too, since it invokes a causative infix "-dir-" where a passive stem is called for ("bas-" = "press") ... makes sense to me, but Turkish etymology is not my strong suit. Anyway, the word does not appear to be likely pan-Turkic but rather of Ottoman/Anatolian origin, the language of ultimate origin uncertain (says Greppin). It would seem to me that one likely source for the Ottoman word would be Byzantine Greek; so my casual amateurish thought is that perhaps "pastirma" reflects in part some cognate of the Classical Greek "pastos" = "salted" ... I think Barnhart presented this or a similar hypothesis. BTW the earliest (1792) Romanian citation is quoted from the Academy dictionary as "pastrama care vine din tara turceasca" = "pastrama which comes from the Turkish land". ---------- Do OED et al. currently favor origin from the Romanian verb "pastra"? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 04:31:54 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:31:54 -0400 Subject: Jinx Message-ID: I saw a discussion of the etymology of "jinx" on Dave Wilton's Web site. Our esteemed colleagues G. Cohen and B. Popik are quoted (from "Comments on Etymology" in 2001). I have reviewed the pertinent "CoE" article, and I'm not satisfied that the etymology of "jinx" = "hoodoo"/"hex" has been elucidated completely. Perhaps some of the local scholars have insights, or newly discovered material. I can see three obvious candidates for the ancestral word. (1) "Jynx" meaning "magical charm" or so, apparently favored by major dictionaries. I agree with Cohen and Popik that the word was too obscure/obsolete around 1908 to be a likely candidate (although obviously there are conceivable scenarios which might explain such a development, several of which were presented on the Web). (2) "Jinks" as a surname, apparently favored by Cohen and Popik. Of the literary examples given, however, only one (1859) seems to portray a Jinks character who has a devilish or ill-omened role. This seems too large a time-gap ... during which time there were other Jinkses (of course Jinks is after all a real surname) including two celebrated "Captain Jinks" military characters who do not embody attributes suitable for development into the modern "jinx" (IMHO). (3) The mild oath "by Jink[s]", which was equivalent to "by gosh"/"by golly". I believe this is a version of "by Jingo[es]" or "by jing[s]" (both quite venerable, used by A. Lincoln and by Mark Twain respectively) and not really equivalent to the surname except in form. I don't see why it should have furnished the modern sense of "jinx" (although I do find one instance of "by jinx" so spelled from the 19th century). This would be like saying "he put a gosh on me" for "he put a curse/hex on me". I have a few other odd notions which I can present later if there's any interest. Can anybody fill in the record or further justify some proposed etymology? -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 29 08:29:01 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:29:01 +0100 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020728235210.025015a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > Can anybody fill in the record or further justify some proposed > etymology? Take a look at my own attempt, at . I have been able to show, through a book and play of the early years of the twentieth century, that the old song about Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines which Barry Popik unearthed was still well known just at the point at which it might have been taken up by baseball players. His suggestion is plausible, even though - as so often - key links in the chain of evidence are missing. For example, it may well be that the 1859 poem about the printer's devil named Jinks that he has since found is no more than a coincidence. Of course, it might also be that the name was chosen there, as it was for the Captain Jinks song, because it already had associations with bad luck or incompetence through a reference that we haven't (yet) turned up. That would throw the provenance of the term back beyond 1859. It is also possible that the link is to the relatively rare word "jynx" which dictionaries still give as the origin, thus ultimately proving them right! If you want to compare versions, Dave Wilton's is at . -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 29 10:46:15 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:46:15 -0400 Subject: stick to business, please In-Reply-To: <4e.f0bcaf3.2a760248@aol.com> Message-ID: |o| complaining about his job. This is not a "contribution to the |o| intellectual |o| life of the community." No, but it does add to the sense of community. Some days we little folks just want to vent. Besides, a careful reading revealed a nuanced disagreement over definition and usage in one of the most rigidly structured linguist systems around, the law, and at least passingly on-topic for the list. As for the DEL key, if only we could have only the posts that interest us delivered to our mailboxes. Perhaps, version x.10 will provide it. rhk From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 29 12:50:29 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:50:29 -0700 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <000801c23510$9174e060$0bb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: I work with a man named Sjoblum, "sea blossom". There were too many Johnsons on the boat his ancestors came over on, so his progenitor was given the name of the boat. --- David Bergdahl wrote: > I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were > the ones writing out the > tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin > of my Swedish last name > in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians > got last names in the > early years of the 19th-century there were too many > Johnsons, Andersons, > Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming > convention, so the Swedish > equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people > should use familar > geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, > &c.--which is how we > got to be "mt-valley" people. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > nicht" > --Albert Einstein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 29 13:29:15 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:29:15 -0400 Subject: FYI: Charlotte Read Message-ID: >Just in case anyone is interested - or wants to wish condolences to Allen >Walker Read. >... Charlotte died Thursday night. She had been in and out of hospitals >and nursing homes since February >with bronchitis. > >I'm not sure of Allen's current health, but ... this has to be a blow. I >had been told by a family friend that he was visiting her just about every day. > >I'll let you know as I find out more. >Steve Stockdale DFW Center for General Semantics From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:04:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:04:12 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: In a message dated 07/28/2002 11:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > Library, wrote that in 1905? > The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several > libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. > Something seems wrong here. Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia, copyright 1901, also lists Herman Rosenttaal as "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library" In a message dated 07/28/2002 4:50:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > From April to > June, 1881, a series of pogroms broke out in larger and smaller places in > southern and southwestern Russia; in the other parts of the empire there was > only one, at Warsaw in December. > --THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., NY, vol. 8, > pg. 559 (1969). This was an important event in American history, too, as the pogroms that started in 1881 caused a massive immigration of Eastern European Jews into the United States, converting the US Jewish community from one dominated demographically by Germans and Sephardim and "politically" by Reform Judaism into one with a very large Eastern European demographic and politics that put a stop to the dominance of the Reform movement and its assimilationist tendencies. (For some statistics on immigration to the US, see Jewish Encyclopedia, volume X, page 547 column 2). I strongly suspect that "1969" Ktav edition you cite is simply a photoreproduction of a somewhat earlier edition, in which case your 1969 date is overly, uh, Conservative. > OED has 1882 for "pogrom," then 1905. Merriam-Webster uses a 1903 date. > Clearly, I should come up with something in 1881, if not earlier. Our friend Herman Rosenthal supplies a clear 1901 citation. Jewish Encyclopedia volume I page 347 column 1 article "Alexander III., Alexandrovich" He ascended the throne March 14, 1881...Soon after Alexander III had ascended the throne, anti-Jewish riots (Pogromy) broke out in Elizabethgrad (April 27, 28), Kiev (May 8-11), Shpola (May 9), Ananiev (May 9), Wasilkov (May 10), Konotop (May 10), and during the following six months, in one hundred and sixty other places of southern Russia...It was clear that the riots were premeditated ("Voshkod", May 24, 1881, p. 75). To give but one example---a week before the pogrom of Kiev broke out, Von Hubbenet, chief of police of Kiev, warned some of his Jewish friends of the coming riots. In the above "Pogromy" was in small caps, indicating that an article with that title existed (or in this case, was to exist). There is an entry in Volume X page 100 for "Pogromy" but it merely states "See RUSSIA". In "the pogrom of Kiev", the word "pogrom" is in italics". Rosenthal's biography includes five English-language sources, of which the earliest is "US Congressional Record, 1882, iii. 657, 658". Now for something odd. The entry in volume X for "Poland" (page 102) also states "see RUSSIA". (In both cases "Russia" is in small caps, indicating an article under that entry.) The actual article on Poland begins on page 561 column 2 at the end of the article on "Russia", and is by the ubiquitous Herman Rosenthal. There is a footnote at the bottom of page 561 column 2 reading Owing to the recent disturbances in Russia, the article Poland [small caps], which was assigned to a Russian collaborator and which was to have appeared in its proepr vocabulary place, was not received. The only other caption under which it could be inserted is that under which it now appears. It is the Twenty-First Century and I am sitting in front of a computer (invented by Turing in 1936) and it is with a sense of shock that I realize "recent disturbances in Russia" means "the Revolution of 1905". - James A. Landau From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Jul 29 14:16:29 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:16:29 -0400 Subject: c-hat Message-ID: Hi All, Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. Am I barking up the right tree, here? Any help or leads would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:41:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:41:55 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 07/28/2002 2:35:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > _Adjournment Policy_ > Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation > the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. > Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the > documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. > > The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. In the situation above, > I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. I find an ADS-related interest in the preceding, specifically in the way Judge Popik absent-mindedly uses the jargon word "mitigation" in the last sentence quoted above. As a layman, I find the idea mind-boggling that someone might get a reduction in a parking ticket fine on the grounds that he has terminal cancer, but the existence of the quoted regulation implies that such is an everyday occurrence in New York City courts. > ...While I was out [indicting] a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman I met > yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. It's a > good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I can't > support a frog. On the contrary, you should have shown her your place. If she were not impressed by your talking dining room table, then she is not worth seeing. I notice that by not capitalizing "frog" you avoid making an ethnic slur. Hence you must be referring to "a frong in one's throat", which is a continuation of the recent thread on ADS-L about hoarse horses. ---------------------Even more OT ------------------------------------------------------------- The Ms and I spent Sunday getting lost in New York, New York, New York (our last-minute discovery that the train we were about to take went to Queens allow us to claim the triple repetition.) Coming into Port Authority Bus Terminal from New Jersey, your vehicle after descending from the top of the Palisades loops the loop twice. It is not common for a verb in English to be its own direct object, and here it does so twice. There was of all things a cop car hiding behind a billboard on the ramp leading into Port Authority Terminal. Yes, I am being metaphorical, as the cop was five stories over Ninth Avenue, yet can someone supply a better description. The only reason I can imagine for the presence of the officer was to catch people trying to drive the wrong way on the ramp. Hence he was not a "speed cop" but (as a physics professor once was quoted in Astounding Science Fiction) a "velocity cop". A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali moose track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried karats". ^ ^ ^ ^ ^? At the WTC site I asked a police officer how to get to "Port Authority". He politely asked me if I meant the Bus Terminal? As I should have realized, he was a Port Authority police officer and hence would be ontologically justified in answering "Present". (And at this point I must apologize for doubting the ADS-L correspondent who stated "Ontology recapitulates philology.) And this refers back to the recent thread on James Blish, who in both "Cities in Flight" and "Seedling Stars" drew an Orwellian portrait of a possible future evolution of the PA or NY and NJ. - Jim and Judy Landau PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" ("giblets") and hence is fleischig. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:58:16 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:58:16 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" ("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though I may be recalling a less-pleasant Slavic body-part slang (?) word from my Czech-speaking childhood neighbors. And, yes, BUTTERS has a BUTT in it, and BUTTER can be a verb, etc.) And now I will just in a few minutes begin an endless series of postings--for the list's linguistic analysis--on such topics as the people I have met on planes who found me lovely and talented, my quarrels with the Duke University bookkeeping system, and the menus I have read on my travels. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:59:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:59:04 EDT Subject: c-hat Message-ID: In a message dated 07/29/2002 10:26:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity > theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant > writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he > outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. I have no information on your question, but I would like to comment that your terminology, to an engineer like me, is most strange. "c-hat" is how a mathematically-trained person refers to the letter c with a circumflex or caret over it. The letter plus circumflex is used in statistics to designate an estimate rather than an actual value (the theory behind the distinction was first worked out in 1908 by "Student" (pseudonym for W. S. Gosset), who made the discovery quite literally on company time---he was a brewmaster for Guinness who had been sent to study statistics under the elder Pearson. The hat symbol was introduced by Pearson's great rival Fisher in 1922). In other branches of mathematics the hat symbol is used to designate a conjectured number. For example, early in this century Brouwer defined the number "pi-hat" and devised a paradox based on whether pi-hat exists. To this day the paradox remains unsolved. "object-oriented" (and the acronym "OOPS" for "object-oriented programming system") has a highly specific meaning in computer programming. (If you have a rainy weekend, I'll explain it to you). I don't know when the term "object oriented" was invented in computer science, but it was a well-established term by the late 1980's. - Jim Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 15:43:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:43:12 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <12c.151266e9.2a76ae33@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:41 AM -0400 7/29/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali moose >track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried >karats". seems more appropriate for 47th Street > > >PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously >milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >("giblets") and hence is fleischig. heh heh From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 16:25:44 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:25:44 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <152.11953695.2a76b208@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: #In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: # #<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is #obviously #milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" #("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> # #I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A #little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, #though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though Navel. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 16:52:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:52:07 -0400 Subject: Pastrami In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020728233856.024feec0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #Now of course it's possible that the Romanian word was adopted into Ottoman #Turkish and spread throughout the Ottoman territory after modification. #However, J. A. C. Greppin's paper "The Etymology of _pastrami_" (J. English #Linguistics 21:125-6 [1988]) (upon which I am leaning heavily) makes the #following arguments against the Romanian/Latin origin: I am not arguing FOR the Rom/Lat origin, about which I know only what I have seen in this thread, but I find some of these arguments against it weak. #(1) There is no productive "-ma" suffix in Romanian. Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. #Note that the Balkan/Ottoman/Middle-East referent is not like our pastrami. #The modern Romanian-English dictionary translates "pastrama" as "pemmican". And many of the products that pass in the US as frankfurters and wieners would probably not be accepted as the corresponding Wursts by residents of the German-speaking lands. For that matter, how much does Romanian pastrama really resemble genuine aboriginal North American pemmican? "Not like" is much in the eye (or tongue -- heh, take that as you like!) of the, um, whatever. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 16:58:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:58:48 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: ># >#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is >#obviously >#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> ># >#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A >#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, >#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > >Navel. > We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall anything similar? larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 17:11:10 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:11:10 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: [re: Yid. "pupik"] #>Navel. #> #We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or #otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it #wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't #have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' #in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there #seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall #anything similar? Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking kin. And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" (whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). -- Mark A. Mandel From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:16:26 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:16:26 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: >># >>#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is >>#obviously >>#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >>#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> >># >>#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle >>that it is. A >>#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, >>#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though >> >>Navel. >> >We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >anything similar? It's the part I've also heard called the "Pope's nose" (or, I believe, "Pope's ass"), obviously not by the same people who call it the pupik. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:22:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:22:17 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:11 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >#At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [re: Yid. "pupik"] >#>Navel. >#> >#We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >#otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >#wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >#have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >#in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >#seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >#anything similar? > >Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking >kin. > >And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE >family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her >Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" >(whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). > Yes, you and Alice are right. What IS that little thingy (non-metaphorically)? L From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 17:23:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:23:01 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Yes, you and Alice are right. What IS that little thingy (non-metaphorically)? The tail, more or less? -- Mark M. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:24:10 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:24:10 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:11 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >#At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [re: Yid. "pupik"] >#>Navel. >#> >#We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >#otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >#wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >#have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >#in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >#seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >#anything similar? > >Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking >kin. > >And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE >family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her >Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" >(whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). > >-- Mark A. Mandel Isn't that "thing" the fleshy appendage out of which the tail feathers grow? It's edible, as long as you don't know where it's appended on the chicken. . . . From mkuha at BSU.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:51:14 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:51:14 -0500 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: I finally got a copy of that book that Larry mentioned, "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim and other flubs from the nation's press", and learned from it that the Columbia Journalism Review has a regular feature with such items, called "The Lower case". It is on the inside back cover of each issue. Some headlines are funny but linguistically not-so-interesting typos or inanities ("Journalists say voters hold key to November election"), but most issues have at least a couple of nice examples of syntactic or scope ambiguity or something else of interest (in the most recent issue, "Police Stop Slaying Suspect Look-alikes" and "Panda Lectures This Week at National Zoo"). mk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 18:23:02 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:23:02 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: The term "cold war" is commonly said (in Safire's New Political Dictionary, for example) to have been introduced by Bernard Baruch in a 1947 speech ghosted by Herbert Bayard Swope. Sources propounding this assertion neglect the fact that the OED has a 1945 usage by George Orwell. I have now found a much earlier example, earlier than any possible unpublished usage by Swope: 1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 18:27:20 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:27:20 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 12:25:55 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << PUPEK means ... Navel. -- Mark M. >> <> I would have sworn that the pupek was (among the second-generation Czech children in my neighborhood) the lower opening of the alimentary canal, but that just goes to show you how selective our childhood LINGUISTIC memories can be. Or maybe this was a further shift from the tail of the chicken that Larry and others remember. As we all now, Slavic andYiddish share a lot of comon vocabulary. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 18:46:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <3D450ADD.24344.2ADFF2@localhost> Message-ID: >... the old song about Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines which Barry >Popik unearthed was still well known just at the point at which it might >have been taken up by baseball players. The Captain Jinks song was still in the song-book at my school around 1960; I remember the corn and beans well! >... it may well be that the 1859 poem about the printer's devil named >Jinks that he has since found is no more than a coincidence. Reading the 1859 poem from Cohen and Popik in CoE 31(1):6-8: <<.... "Sure, that must be Jinks," we muttered-- "Jinks that's knocking at our door; Jinks, the everlasting bore." .... we opened wide the door. But phancey, now, our pheelinks For it wasn't Jinks, the bore-- Jinks, nameless evermore. But the form that stood before us, Caused a trembling to come o'er us, .... 'Twas the form of our "devil," ....>> It appears that the newspaperman opens the door expecting Jinks, but -- surprise! -- it's NOT Jinks, but RATHER the "devil" with an unwelcome demand. Am I missing something here? Jinks just stands in for an anonymous imaginary visitor in Poe's poem, right? And I would take "Jinks" to be a nonentity-name used like "Jones" sometimes is used. As for Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines, the song goes "That's the curse of the Army", not "He's the curse of the Army", right? I think Jinks in the song is just a soldier-buffoon, not a jinx or Jonah. The other Captain Jinks, in the 1902 novel, is without jinx-like character. The "Captain Jinks" song is quoted in the novel with a remark as to the coincidence of names, BTW. I think the name was chosen for the novel as meaning "military chauvinistic idiot" or so; however, by 1902 "Jinks" may have been a minimally-masked version of "Jingo" in its modern sense, to essentially the same effect. >Of course, it might also be that the name was chosen there, as it was for >the Captain Jinks song, because it already had associations with bad luck >or incompetence through a reference that we haven't (yet) turned up. Possible, but review of many 19th-century uses of the name at MoA does not suggest this to me. There does seem to be a correlation (imperfect) with the military, probably secondary to the famous song. >It is also possible that the link is to the relatively rare word "jynx" >which dictionaries still give as the origin, thus ultimately proving them >right! Possible. But the sole OED citation of "jynx" = "charm" appears to be pre-1700, and it shows the obscure Latin plural form "jynges". The big Century Dictionary of 1889 shows the equivalents "iynx" and "yunx" as headwords -- neither pronounced at all like "jinx" -- but "jynx" itself gets no entry, nor does "jinx"; only the bird ("wryneck") meaning is included anyway (no mention of magic). -- Doug Wilson From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 19:01:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:01:43 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #I have now found a much earlier example, earlier than any possible #unpublished usage by Swope: # #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? -- Mark A. Mandel From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Jul 29 19:08:12 2002 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:08:12 -0400 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: Didn't Carl Perkins have a song titled "Honey Don't"? On 7/28/02 2:35 AM, "Bapopik at AOL.COM" wrote: > HONEY DO / HONEY DEW > > "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? > > "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. > > "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. 10+. > Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. > > "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. > > "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first line is "Come > on honey do, and I'll show it to you." > > "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. > > "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. > > "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave Kerker, 1894. ‹ Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "Wherever you go, there you are." From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 29 19:05:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:05:11 -0700 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729064941.024cb390@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > It appears that the newspaperman opens the door expecting > Jinks, but -- > surprise! -- it's NOT Jinks, but RATHER the "devil" with an unwelcome > demand. Am I missing something here? Jinks just stands in for > an anonymous > imaginary visitor in Poe's poem, right? And I would take > "Jinks" to be a > nonentity-name used like "Jones" sometimes is used. I inferred that use of "devil" is a double entendre. Not only is the poet implying that Jinks is an evil, vexatious man for making such demands on a poor reporter, but he is also using the printing jargon term for assistant/apprentice ("printer's devil"). Jinks is the editor's assistant and newspapermen would be familiar with both senses of "devil." And yes, "Jinks" in the poem is a non-entity name like Jones. This is one of the early uses of the name in literature, but one where we begin to see the association with vexing behavior/bad luck. I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have to update my site to make explicit mention of it. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 29 19:32:11 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:32:11 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <152.11953695.2a76b208@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A > little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, > though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > I may be recalling a less-pleasant Slavic body-part slang (?) word from my > Czech-speaking childhood neighbors. And, yes, BUTTERS has a BUTT in it, and > BUTTER can be a verb, etc.) The pupek is the navel, in Czech I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly button). -- Steve Kl. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 19:32:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:32:52 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <002b01c23732$dd9de440$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have #to update my site to make explicit mention of it. I've been following this thread and forwarding parts of it to my wife. We've known Captain Jinks for many years, thanks to Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" novels. (Don't speak to me about the TV version.) I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines I feed my horse on corn and beans I court the pretty girls in their teens And I often live beyond my means I'm captain in the Army! (from memory, from one of the books) -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 29 20:06:31 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:06:31 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > >#I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have >#to update my site to make explicit mention of it. > >I've been following this thread and forwarding parts of it to my wife. >We've known Captain Jinks for many years, thanks to Laura Ingalls >Wilder's "Little House" novels. (Don't speak to me about the TV >version.) > > I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines > I feed my horse on corn and beans > I court the pretty girls in their teens > And I often live beyond my means > I'm captain in the Army! > >(from memory, from one of the books) > >-- Mark A. Mandel ~~~~~~~ We sang the version above when I was in grade school. But I find on my bookshelf the version below. >>From /Favorite Songs of the People/ songbook, copyright 1927 Theodore Presser Co., Phila.: I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines; I feed my horse on corn and beans, And sport young ladies in their teens, Tho' captain in the army. I teach young ladies how to dance, how to dance, how to dance I teach young ladies how to dance, for I'm the pet of the army. I joined my corps when twenty-one. Of course I thought it capital fun. When the enemy came, of course I run, For I'm not cut out for the army. When I left home, Mama she cried, Mama she cried, Mama she cried. When I left home, Mama she cried, He's not cut out for the army. A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 20:07:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:07:04 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 07/29/2002 10:58:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > BUTTER can be a verb Yes, as in "to butter a brick", meaning (for a bricklayer) to coat a brick with mortar before placing it in the wall or other brick item being constructed. Since mortar is quite alkaline (due to the slaked lime in it), then "to butter him up" obviously means "to be extremely caustic towards him". And if you make a mistake with the mortar, then you get to use one of my favorite English expressions (which I will use now because I NEVER get the proper context for it): you call in an artisan known as a "tuckpointer" who performs the actions of tucking and pointing. All I can say about "pupek" is that my wife's family uses it to mean giblets. It is possible that this usage is due to the location in which Empire Poultry packs the giblets in a frozen Kosher turkey. - Jim Landau (non-Yiddish speaker) P.S. In my most recent "Odessa" thread post, I failed to state that the copyright date of Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia is 1901. Also for "Rosenthal's biography" read "Rosenthal's bibliography." I have no idea when the NYPL acquired the name of "New York Public Library" but circa 1900 is plausible, since a lot of public libraries were founded with Carnegie money about that time. In a message dated 07/29/2002 12:55:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that > happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? > ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk > etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so > this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. You're putting Descartes before de horse. By definition, a folk etymology is one that seizes on a chance resemblance in form, e.g. "Jerusalem artichoke" from "girasole". From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jul 29 20:04:29 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:04:29 -0500 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? Gerald Cohen >At 12:51 PM -0500 7/29/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >I finally got a copy of that book that Larry mentioned, "Squad Helps Dog >Bite Victim and other flubs from the nation's press", and learned from it >that the Columbia Journalism Review has a regular feature with such items, >called "The Lower case". It is on the inside back cover of each issue. Some >headlines are funny but linguistically not-so-interesting typos or inanities >("Journalists say voters hold key to November election"), but most issues >have at least a couple of nice examples of syntactic or scope ambiguity or >something else of interest (in the most recent issue, "Police Stop Slaying >Suspect Look-alikes" and "Panda Lectures This Week at National Zoo"). >mk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 20:31:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:31:24 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <82.1f122440.2a76fa68@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #In a message dated 07/29/2002 12:55:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that #> happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? #> ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk #> etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so #> this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. # #You're putting Descartes before de horse. By definition, a folk etymology is #one that seizes on a chance resemblance in form, e.g. "Jerusalem artichoke" #from "girasole". Don't saddle me with that! I was responding to an argument that seemed to ignore that fact by specifically saying there was no *productive* suffix. -- Mark A. Mandel From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Mon Jul 29 20:46:24 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:46:24 -0700 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta > At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: > ># > >#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is > >#obviously > >#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" > >#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> > ># > >#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A > >#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, > >#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > > > >Navel. > > > We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or > otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it > wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't > have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' > in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there > seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall > anything similar? > > larry > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 29 22:22:18 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:22:18 -0700 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: from the Palo Alto Daily News a while back: Trucks leads police to molest suspect alas, "molestation suspect" was too long to fit. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 29 22:36:09 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:36:09 -0700 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: correction: Truck leads police to molest suspect arnold, apologizing for the anticipatory -s From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 29 22:39:45 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:39:45 -0400 Subject: headline humor source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/29/02 16:04, "Gerald Cohen" wrote: > Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in > the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. > My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the > headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." > I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help > thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? How sure are you there was no humor intended? Journalists go to great lengths to work these sorts of things into headlines. Every once in a while the Bong Bull newsletter ( http://gondwanaland.com/bong/ ) features them, with reporters explaining whether it was intended or not (usually it was, with the half-hope that an editor would catch it before publication). I believe the Letters page at Romenesko's MediaNews ( http://www.poynter.org/medianews/ ) had a similar thread. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 29 23:04:24 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:04:24 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <003801c23741$01c3b440$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com> Message-ID: Jerome Foster writes: >The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. ~~~~~~~~ I can't say about pupik/pupek, but the "pope's nose" is undoubtedly the tail. The holes left by the tail feathers can be easily seen. It's been a few years since I last dressed a chicken, but IIRC there is a little gland at the base of the tail on the dorsal side that needs to be removed, and then the tail may be cut off, but it is edible. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 23:53:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:53:04 EDT Subject: Meschugge, Schlimmassel (1881); Chutzpa (1883) Message-ID: MESCHUGGE, SCHLIMMASSEL From the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London), 12 August 1881, pg. 10. col. 2: _THE JUDEO-GERMAN DIALECT._ This dialect generally known by the name of _Judisch-Deutsch_ is a mixture of an archaic German basis with a great many Hebrew roots, Germanised as to their form, and many corruptions from Slavonjic and other idioms. (...) On the other hand this idiom furnishes a clue to several entirely non-German expressions and phrases that are currently used in South Germany, such as _uzen_ (to banter), _meschugge_ (crazy), _schote_ (fool), _schlimmassel_ (ill-luck), _schlemihl_ (an awkward person), &c. (The revised OED has 1885 for "meshugge"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHUTZPA From THE AMERICAN HEBREW, 1 June 1883, pg/ 30, col. 1: _CHUTZPA._ (The word in Hebrew lettering follows--ed.) My children, there is one word in the Hebrew language, which, often used in common conversation, is most expressive for the idea that it seeks to convey. This word I mean is the word _Chutzpa_, which word, no doubt, is not foreign to your ears. And yet, although every one is familiar with this term, still there are only a few who know its full meaning and import. (This speech is given by Dr. Baar to the children at the Hebrew Orphan Asylum. There's no indiction in the text of the famous "orphan chutzpah" joke, but perhaps it did develop this early?--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 30 00:10:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:10:52 -0500 Subject: "Clever Police Chief Arrested" Message-ID: Grant Barrett asks how I can be sure there was no humor intended in the above headline. Answer: I've lived in Rolla, Missouri for 34 years and have never seen humor in the headlines of my local newspaper. It's just not part of the culture here. Gerald Cohen >At 6:39 PM -0400 7/29/02, Grant Barrett wrote: >On 7/29/02 16:04, "Gerald Cohen" wrote: > >> Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in >> the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. >> My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the >> headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." >> I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help >> thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? > >How sure are you there was no humor intended? Journalists go to great >lengths to work these sorts of things into headlines. Every once in a while >the Bong Bull newsletter ( http://gondwanaland.com/bong/ ) features them, >with reporters explaining whether it was intended or not (usually it was, >with the half-hope that an editor would catch it before publication). I >believe the Letters page at Romenesko's MediaNews ( >http://www.poynter.org/medianews/ ) had a similar thread. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 30 00:43:52 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:43:52 -0500 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 7/29/02 6:04 PM, sagehen at sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM wrote: > Jerome Foster writes: > >> The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. > ~~~~~~~~ > I can't say about pupik/pupek, but the "pope's nose" is undoubtedly the > tail. The holes left by the tail feathers can be easily seen. > It's been a few years since I last dressed a chicken, but IIRC there is a > little gland at the base of the tail on the dorsal side that needs to be > removed, and then the tail may be cut off, but it is edible. > A. Murie > Yes, the tail. It has some vertebrae in it. DMLance From funkmasterj at RUNBOX.COM Tue Jul 30 00:51:53 2002 From: funkmasterj at RUNBOX.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:51:53 GMT Subject: OT: Spanish Message-ID: Hi, I am well aware the function of this list is primarily English, but could someone recommend a Spanish immersion CD or refer me to someone who can? Sorry for the off topic message. Jordan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 01:05:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:05:08 EDT Subject: Kosher restaurant, Kosher wine, Kosher food, Kosher supper (1881) Message-ID: I haven't seen "pogrom" used to describe the 1881 disturbances, but I'll get to that at another time. "Kosher restaurant" received big play in the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London). I'll look in the AMERICAN HEBREW for America's first "kosher restaurant," which probably followed in the 1880s soon afterwards. OED has later entries like this under an overly broad category of "kosher shop." (Feb?) 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONCLE, pg. 13, col. 4 ad: PARIS--("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT. Madame VEUVE LEVI. RUE, GEOFFROY MARIE, 5, Near the Boulevards Montmartre, Paris. New and highly comfortable establishment. 25 March 1881, JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 1: Everyone knows the story of the Pole who obtained a pair of false _Payas_ so that he might appear in them in Prussian Posen and evade the scissors in Russian Wilna. (...) ...permission should be given to the congregation to supply _kosher_ food to the Jewish recruits. (...) ...and gave at the same time another proof of the truth, "every country has the Jew it deserves." (OED has 1898 for "payos," from Zangwill...Does Fred Shapiro have this famous quote from Berthold Auerbach (1812-1882)?--ed.) 20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 2 title of letter to the newspaper: THE KOSHER RESTAURANT COMPANY. 20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: WEIL'S IMPERIAL ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT 132, HOUNSDITCH. NOW OPEN. 24 June 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 15, col. 2 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) KOSHER RESTAURANT CO. (LIMITED). 15, UNION COURT, OLD BROAD STREET. 1 July 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 1: WINE MERCHANTS. _JAMESON & SONS_, 85 Mansell Street, E. Importers of ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) Wines. 29 July 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 125, col. 2: _KOSHER RESTAURANTS._ Many of our readers are doubtless unaware of the fact that while in this country little attention is paid to the dietary laws by the multitude of travelers, and particularly by commercial travelers, in England it is quite the contrary. Wherever one goes, one or more Kosher boarding houses are to be found... (A reprint of THE JEWISH CHRONICLE's article about London's Kosher restaurant follows--ed.) 2 December 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 25, col. 2: IT is to the credit of the Young Men's Hebrew Association that such efforts have been made to secure a Kosher supper for those who attend the Chanucka Ball. From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Tue Jul 30 01:06:09 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:06:09 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory Message-ID: Any responses on my earlier inquiry? Please forgive me if it is an inappropriate request. Hi All, Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. Am I barking up the right tree, here? Any help or leads would be greatly appreciated. Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU Tue Jul 30 01:42:24 2002 From: aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU (American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) 2003) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:42:24 -1000 Subject: Submit now!! AAAL 2003 deadline is August 26! Message-ID: Submit now!! AAAL 2003 deadline is August 26! Call for Papers: AAAL 2003 The annual conference of the American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) will be held March 22-25, 2003 at the Sheraton National Hotel in Arlington, VA, across the Potomac River from Washington, DC. Proposals for presentations related to policy, research, and theory are invited in any area of applied linguistics. Proposals may be for individual papers, poster sessions, or colloquia. The abstract submission and refereeing process will be paperless this year. Instructions regarding abstract preparation and online submission and other aspects of the conference may be found on the organization's website: www.aaal.org/aaal2003/ Proposals may be submitted online until the deadline of August 26, 2002. Please join us in Arlington for AAAL 2003! From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Tue Jul 30 05:13:46 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:13:46 -0400 Subject: Kosher restaurant, Kosher wine, Kosher food, Kosher supper (1881) In-Reply-To: <182.bd17d0f.2a774044@aol.com> Message-ID: Some references for 'kosher': An 1874 article in The Galaxy on 'The Jewish Dietary System': http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ACB8727-0018-88 An 1897 article in Harpers: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABK4014-0094-5&type=boolean&slice=1&&&q1=kosher&op2=And&op3=And&year1=1815&year2=1926&rgn=Same%20page&searchSummary=8%20matching%20%20journal%20articles&size=50&layer=third&coll=serial1 Also, although it follows in medieval antisemitic tradition (and the magazine itself notes this and says that a rebuttal will be made in the next issue), this article in The Century by Zenaide Ragozin in 1882: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABP2287-0023-273 is a discussion of Russian Jews, which includes mention of the pogroms (but does not use that word as far as I can tell) and on page 913, references 'kosher'. The rebuttal article in the next issue, also published in 1882 is available here: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABP2287-0024-9 Note that a line from the Ragozin article is cited in The Century Dictionary, published in 1889, for the word 'kosher'. An online image is available at: http://216.156.253.178/cgi-bin/nph-cent2jpg?volno=04&page=3311 Philip Trauring > I haven't seen "pogrom" used to describe the 1881 disturbances, but I'll >get to that at another time. > "Kosher restaurant" received big play in the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London). >I'll look in the AMERICAN HEBREW for America's first "kosher restaurant," >which probably followed in the 1880s soon afterwards. > OED has later entries like this under an overly broad category of "kosher >shop." > >(Feb?) 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONCLE, pg. 13, col. 4 ad: >PARIS--("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT. > Madame VEUVE LEVI. > RUE, GEOFFROY MARIE, 5, >Near the Boulevards Montmartre, Paris. >New and highly comfortable establishment. > >25 March 1881, JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 1: > Everyone knows the story of the Pole who obtained a pair of false _Payas_ >so that he might appear in them in Prussian Posen and evade the scissors in >Russian Wilna. (...) > ...permission should be given to the congregation to supply _kosher_ food >to the Jewish recruits. (...) > ...and gave at the same time another proof of the truth, "every country >has the Jew it deserves." >(OED has 1898 for "payos," from Zangwill...Does Fred Shapiro have this famous >quote from Berthold Auerbach (1812-1882)?--ed.) > >20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 2 title of letter to the >newspaper: > THE KOSHER RESTAURANT COMPANY. > >20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: > WEIL'S >IMPERIAL ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT >132, HOUNSDITCH. >NOW OPEN. > >24 June 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 15, col. 2 ad: > ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) >KOSHER RESTAURANT CO. (LIMITED). >15, UNION COURT, OLD BROAD STREET. > >1 July 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 1: > WINE MERCHANTS. >_JAMESON & SONS_, 85 Mansell Street, E. Importers of ("Kosher" in >Hebrew--ed.) Wines. > >29 July 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 125, col. 2: > _KOSHER RESTAURANTS._ > Many of our readers are doubtless unaware of the fact that while in this >country little attention is paid to the dietary laws by the multitude of >travelers, and particularly by commercial travelers, in England it is quite >the contrary. Wherever one goes, one or more Kosher boarding houses are to >be found... >(A reprint of THE JEWISH CHRONICLE's article about London's Kosher restaurant >follows--ed.) > >2 December 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 25, col. 2: > IT is to the credit of the Young Men's Hebrew Association that such >efforts have been made to secure a Kosher supper for those who attend the >Chanucka Ball. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 06:25:25 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:25:25 EDT Subject: Iconostasis, Bashlik, Kurgan (1825) Message-ID: TRAVELS IN RUSSIA, THE KRIMEA, THE CAUCASUS, AND GEORGIA by Robert Lyall in two volumes London: T. Cadell 1825 VOLUME ONE Pg. 6: The tomb of Christ, with saints around it, and the dungeon in which he is sitting in a meloncholy attitude, with a black mantle thrown over him, and an armed guard on each side, form a kind of _ikonostas_, or transept, and only claim notice because all the figures, which are about a foot in height, appear to be cut out of wood or some other solid substance, and receive the _homage_ of the passing peasantry, and at least the _reverance_ even of the nobles and the clergy. (OED and M-W have 1833 for "iconostasis"--ed.) Pg. 135: ...whence the adage, "_Buy not a village, but buy a steward for yourself_." Pg. 136: ...a Russian proverb: "_Every lime-tree is not in a line_." Pg. 220: The word _burcha_ admits of no other translation than that of felt-mantle. It is nearly half an inch thick, and is often covered with long hair, for the most part of a black or brown colour. It forms an inseparable part of the Tartar's and the mountaineer's travelling _appareil_, every where in the Krimea, the Caucasus, and in Georgia; and, I believe, it is likewise used in Persia. (See past post on "burka"--ed.) Pg. 428: The peasants have still a saying among them, that "potatoes are not an article of God's giving, or he would have given them to the Russians." This nonsense, however, is annually becoming less credited, and the common people begin to consume considerable quantities of this invaluable root. Pg. 464: The weather still being very unfavourable, we took a hint from the custom of the natives of these mountainous regions, and provided ourselves with _burchas_, of which I have already spoken*, and with great thick white flannel hoods, called _bashliks_, which covered our caps. (OED has 1881 for "bashlik." This beats my two prior posts on this word--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 240: But, at some versts from the town, he ordered a halt to be made at a small _kurgan_, or tumulus. (OED has 1889 and 1890 for "kurgan"--ed.) Pg. 266: It often happened, that he had no more than 300 or 400 roubles in the house; but the exterior changed not: he continued to live like a _millionaire_ (this word is adopted in Russ). Pg. 293: ...the proverb that "_A merchant will sell his face_." Pg. 455: The "_dirty and abominable broth_" to which Dr. Clark alludes, was most likely _stchi_, or sour cabbage soup, which is a favourite dish of the Russians, and although its odour is not the most agreeable, it is highly relished by foreigners after a short residence in their country. (The prior page notes the book _Clarke's Travels_. OED has 1824 for this soup, but see prior ADS-L posts on this variously spelled soup--ed.) From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 09:34:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 05:34:26 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good meeting, etc.). rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 10:38:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:38:37 EDT Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments Message-ID: BIRTHDAY RESTAURANT--It's not a very popular word combination, with only about 30 hits each on Google and its newsgroups. However, there's been a recent NEW YORK OBSERVER article by Alexandra Jacobs on this (also on Google), so it might pick up steam. A "birthday restaurant" is a place where you go to celebrate your birthday. Some New Yorkers try to avoid them for just this reason. REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand island dressing on rye bread. BRITISH BURGER/LONDON BURGER--I recently posted from Alaska about a "London Burger" that contained Canadian bacon and American and Swiss cheeses. A 1980s menu in the LAPL collection from Denny's (a large restaurant chain) has, in its "Hamburger Hall of Fame," a "Britishburger" with bacon slices and melted cheese. Others on this list can verify any geographical and culinary accuracy. MOZZARELLA STICKS--I don't know what the upcoming OED "mozzarella" entry will look like, but "mozzarella sticks" have become very popular, especially after Burger King introduced them to its menu. Tommy Lasorda's Ribs and Pasta, 14131 Marquesas Way, Marina Del Ray, had "Fried Mozzarella Sticks" on its menu in 1987. SWAPTIONS--I found this word while catching up on my reading. I checked, and it hasn't been mentioned on ADS-L, it's not on the WordSpy, and it's not in the OED. It's standard terminology and it shouldn't fall unnoticed. O.T.: RON BUTTERS' COMMENTS ("stick to business") Yes, I'm deeply offended by Ron's comments. It's no secret at all that there are many lawyers on this list. An off-topic legal comment is intended for them and a few other people. I don't have to explain that, but I guess that I do. I do thousands of etymological posts ("business") that involve a great deal of effort. "Ham sandwich" is a very good example. Years ago, I e-mailed my own law school about this, and got no reply. So I spent a great deal of my own money and flew to Berlin to speak directly to Sol Wachtler. And I got hit for law school donations while at a concentration camp. I returned to the NYPL, found the quote, and posted it here free of charge. Some people might want to know how I'm able to do this business. Stick to business? That's the point I was trying to make! It's a "business" where I don't get paid and seldom get credit or recognized for my work. I am able to do the "business" only because no one loves me, I have no children, both of my parents are dead, I live in a very tiny apartment, and I'm able to work at a government job where I deny people due process of law. Ron can separate one from the other. But for me, the sadness will always be there. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 30 10:56:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:56:54 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: #"...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." # #Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 # #I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing #this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good #meeting, etc.). I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was (and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line "Anna" Head gives great costume. Obviously not productive, but there it was. -- Mark M. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 30 11:59:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:59:33 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729064941.024cb390@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: It has been stated that Jinks is the printer's devil (i.e., apprentice or assistant) in the poem. Let me quote my excerpt again: <<.... "Sure, that must be Jinks," we muttered-- "Jinks that's knocking at our door; Jinks, the everlasting bore." .... we opened wide the door. But phancey, now, our pheelinks For it wasn't Jinks, the bore-- Jinks, nameless evermore. But the form that stood before us, Caused a trembling to come o'er us, .... 'Twas the form of our "devil," ....>> Let me amplify and simplify the line which I meant to emphasize (the 6th line of text in the above excerpt): <<... IT WASN'T JINKS ...>> It was the "devil" (printer's, and maybe other too), but ** IT WASN'T JINKS. ** The name "Jinks" never appears again after the line with "nameless evermore"; as for the "devil" at the door, "IT WASN'T JINKS". *** JINKS WAS NOT GIVEN AS THE NAME OF THE "DEVIL" IN THE POEM! JINKS WAS SOMEBODY ELSE ENTIRELY! *** At least that's how it looks to me. Sorry for shouting. -- Doug Wilson From mlv at POBOX.COM Tue Jul 30 12:16:51 2002 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:16:51 -0400 Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" In-Reply-To: <20020730040017.096B12C7F4@dolly1.pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:04:12 EDT, "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 07/28/2002 11:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > > Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > > Library, wrote that in 1905? > > The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several > > libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. > > Something seems wrong here. > > Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia, copyright 1901, also lists Herman > Rosenttaal as "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > Library" I just checked nypl.org, and according to them, the New York Public Library (the organization, not the building) was formed in 1895. The branches were created in or after 1901. And it took 16 years to build the NYPL building. Michael ...back to lurking... From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 30 13:37:27 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:37:27 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your query about the origin of cultural-historical activity theory didn't seem inappropriate to me at all! However, I wasn't able to find any information about the word in our databases or files. You say you've found the phrase used in Marx -- would this be in the German text or in an English translation from the German? Is it possible the English term was coined as a calque on a German locution? Or is it possible that the term was coined very recently (and is being used in restricted circles) to name an intellectual movement that originated in Marx? It's important to distinguish between the origin of a WORD and the origin of the THING that word represents -- they're completely different entities. In any case, sorry for the lack of information. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster, Inc. From mssmith at BOONE.NET Tue Jul 30 14:01:23 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:01:23 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory Message-ID: Thank you anyway, Joanne. I thought I'd give it a shot. Best, Susan Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: cultural historical activity theory > Your query about the origin of cultural-historical activity theory > didn't seem inappropriate to me at all! However, I wasn't able to > find any information about the word in our databases or files. You > say you've found the phrase used in Marx -- would this be in the > German text or in an English translation from the German? Is it > possible the English term was coined as a calque on a German > locution? Or is it possible that the term was coined very recently > (and is being used in restricted circles) to name an intellectual > movement that originated in Marx? It's important to distinguish > between the origin of a WORD and the origin of the THING that > word represents -- they're completely different entities. > > In any case, sorry for the lack of information. > > Joanne Despres > Merriam-Webster > > Joanne Despres > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 14:18:21 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:18:21 -0400 Subject: Swaption, Swap Agreement Message-ID: A swaption is an option to enter into a specified swap agreement. The earliest use I've seen of this Wall Street terminology is from 1987: >>"I'm fed-up with tax exotica, 'swaptions' and the like," said one treasurer who produced his diary to show six appointments with "unknown" banks over the past few days.<< Angela Mackay, "The Great Banker Glut," Australian Financial Review, Feb. 3, 1987. "Swap agreement" doesn't seem to be in the OED either, at least not in this sense. A swap agreement is an agreement to exchange the cash flows from two assets; interest rate swaps are the most typical. Swaps and swaptions are usually entered into using standard documentation from the International Swap Dealers Association, which was chartered in 1985. Here's the earliest use I've seen, from 1982: >>AMFAC and Finance for Industry then exchanged their loans and signed a swap agreement under which AMFAC pays the fixed 15.25% interest on Finance for Industry's Eurobond borrowing. AMFAC also pays the 0.625 percentage point margin on the floating rate loan, but Finance for Industry pays the remaining interest on that loan interest set at the floating London rate.<< Dow Jones News Service, July 7, 1982. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments SWAPTIONS--I found this word while catching up on my reading. I checked, and it hasn't been mentioned on ADS-L, it's not on the WordSpy, and it's not in the OED. It's standard terminology and it shouldn't fall unnoticed. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 15:23:46 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:23:46 EDT Subject: ... Butter's Comments Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/2002 6:39:02 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << Yes, I'm deeply offended by Ron's comments. It's no secret at all that there are many lawyers on this list. An off-topic legal comment is intended for them and a few other people. I don't have to explain that, but I guess that I do. >> I am sorry that Mr. Popik was offended. I do not take offense at the fact (if it is a fact) that many of my postings may be of no interest whatever to him (or some others who subscribe to ADS-L) I mentioned the fact that I personally find little of interest in Mr. Popik's lexicographical postings ONLY as a way of emphasizing that I nonetheless firmly support his posting them. I am told by people I respect that Popik's work is extremely useful to the many lexicographers who participate in ADS-L, and it has always been clear that they are very interesting to many of the subscribers. I occasionally read them myself when the particular word is of interest to me. I am grateful that he generates so much interest in ADS-L and thereby in the study of American English, which is the central purpose of this list. What I do object to is when he uses the list for irrelevant personal purposes. This includes venting about off-topic legal issues, which was what brought my initial criticism. Comments addressed only to lawyers are outside the scope of this list and should be posted elsewhere. There are in fact many special interests represented on this list that normal users would not think of mentioning. Do we really want an ADS-L where the feminists address remarks only to the other feminists, where the gay folk address comments only to the other gay folk, where the engineers speak about topics of primary interest only to other engineers? More importantly, do we really want a list in which we babble on about the intimate details of our private lives, details that have nothing whatever to do with language? Someone wrote me (privately, I think) that such conversation is a way of building a sense of community among ADS-Lers. As I see it, ADS-L is a community devoted to the topic of the English language, especially in America. Why we need to stray very far from that topic is not clear to me. ADS-L is not a support group or a place for venting personal frustrations or complaining about the details of our private lives. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 15:44:14 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:44:14 EDT Subject: Pupicek and other such names Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 3:32:33 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: << I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly button). >> Is the -ek a genitive ending? so that "Pupicek" would be 'offspring of Pupek'? I had real friends who were named Stepanek, Lofek, Vandreshek, and always assumed that the -ek was like the -son of Swedish names. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 15:52:24 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:52:24 -0400 Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| Some people might want to know how I'm able to do this business. |o| Stick to business? That's the point I was trying to make! It's a |o| "business" where I don't get paid and seldom get credit or |o| recognized for my |o| work. I am able to do the "business" only because no one loves |o| me, I have no |o| children, both of my parents are dead, I live in a very tiny |o| apartment, and |o| I'm able to work at a government job where I deny people due |o| process of law. Gee, it sucks to be you. Maybe Butter's is right. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 16:02:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:02:16 EDT Subject: hit DEL key before reading (was "Honey Do") Message-ID: In a message dated 7/28/02 2:35:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. We will ask of Judge Popik's chief clark Just how often it is he must mark up non-theoretical dental and medical Excuses for where one may park In a message dated 7/30/02 11:24:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > Do we really want an ADS-L where the feminists address remarks > only to the other feminists, where the gay folk address comments only to the > other gay folk, where the engineers speak about topics of primary interest > only to other engineers? That should read "...where the engineers speak about topics that are not even of interest to other engineers?" For example, from URL http://athena.mat.ufrgs.br/~portosil/passa7a.html "Segundo James A. Landau: ...semelhantemente aos documentos etruscos, do Vale do Indo temos apenas fragmentos de textos, o que não é material suficiente para possibilitar a decifragem de sua escrita. ( Consequentemente ), que evidência teríamos para se poder falar de matemática nessa civilização? Pergunta-se: esse texto é compatível com o que foi dito na cronologia acima? " From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 30 16:10:51 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:10:51 -0400 Subject: We didn't start the flame war Message-ID: [...Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land", Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs Invasion....] how about smartasses who goof off around a relevant lingusitics topic? Does that count as inappropriate behavior that belongs off-list? Do we exclude smartasses?? Or only non-clever smartasses?? (Which reminds me of why I didn't bring to the list my questions over the lexicography of 'Asshat', my new favorite fad word [and one that I am actively trying to promote through usage].) BTW - Barry - thanks again! for sending me the 50-lari bill from your trip to Armenia. I haven't checked my account, so I hope you had no problem with the check I sent you for reimbursement. My tattooist has a good sketch of the reverse-side art, and I should be getting the work done fairly soon. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 30 16:07:48 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:07:48 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the point of what Barry is all about. Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material contains. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla research specialty: etymology From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 30 16:29:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:29:34 -0700 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730073336.02467ca0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > It was the "devil" (printer's, and maybe other too), but > > ** IT WASN'T JINKS. ** > > The name "Jinks" never appears again after the line with "nameless > evermore"; as for the "devil" at the door, "IT WASN'T JINKS". > > *** JINKS WAS NOT GIVEN AS THE NAME OF THE "DEVIL" IN THE > POEM! JINKS WAS > SOMEBODY ELSE ENTIRELY! *** Or the protaganist is hallucinating. He talks of how "memory quickly bore us/Back again to days of yore'" and of the printer's devil asking for copy. His use of "devil" is not a reference to Satan appearing, but rather in his mind Jinks has been transformed into an imp who "still is flitting" about and continually asking for more copy. He picks up a cudgel and chases Jinks/devil back to "his office." Still this all a bit tangential to the origin of the modern sense of "jinx." No one has antedated that sense earlier than the 1910-11 baseball usages. What we have here is a character named "Jinks" who is associated with vexing behavior and persistant bad luck (at not finding a story). What the poet was literally describing is not important to the original question, the association is sufficient to indicate that the modern usage of "jinx" may be/is likely (take your pick) from the proper name, used in this poem and other sources. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Jul 30 17:01:50 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:01:50 +0100 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've not seen anyone in this exchange deny that Barry's scholarly work is valuable. What they are questioning is why it has to come with messages that are mostly about personal things or political opinions and such. Those _are_ separate issues. Since the majority of the group manages to treat these kinds of information separately, I don't see why a complaint about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an attack on his scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. Every once in a while, I start reading Barry's postings again, to see what I'm missing, and there's a lot of stuff, but then I'll be faced with gobs of information I just don't find appropriate to the list and I start deleting without reading again. And I have noticed a double standard here--in the past, people with personal rants about political issues have been told that this is not the appropriate forum, and we haven't seen leaps to the defense of their scholarly work. Yes, ADS-L is a community, but we're not, as a group, intimates. Some people within the group may have the sorts of relationships in which one talks about more personal things, but then we do that off-list. If there are particular people whom Barry (or anyone else) is trying to reach with the personal info, then that info should be sent only to those people rather than to all of us. The reason I end up deleting is that I don't like having intimate relationships forced upon me when the interest is not reciprocal. Yes, we have delete keys, but contributors to the list should also have some self-censorship skills, should they not? Lynne --On Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:07 am -0500 Gerald Cohen wrote: > I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I > return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry > Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the > point of what Barry is all about. > Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l > in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been > presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into > polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material > contains. > > Gerald Cohen > University of Missouri-Rolla > research specialty: etymology Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QH >>From UK: (01273) 678844 fax: (01273) 671320 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 fax: +44-1273-671320 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:02:53 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:53 -0700 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:07 AM -0500 Gerald Cohen wrote: > I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry > Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the > point of what Barry is all about. > Those messages are very much a side-show I think Ron made quite clear (in the quote below) that he in no way "misses the point of what Barry is all about." He is simply asking that we be spared the side-show. "I mentioned the fact that I personally find little of interest in Mr. Popik's lexicographical postings ONLY as a way of emphasizing that I nonetheless firmly support his posting them. I am told by people I respect that Popik's work is extremely useful to the many lexicographers who participate in ADS-L, and it has always been clear that they are very interesting to many of the subscribers. I occasionally read them myself when the particular word is of interest to me. I am grateful that he generates so much interest in ADS-L and thereby in the study of American English, which is the central purpose of this list. "What I do object to is when he uses the list for irrelevant personal purposes." **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:14:30 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:14:30 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Lynne Murphy wrote: > I don't see why a complaint > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an attack on his > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that make me an insightful entomologist? From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Jul 30 17:29:51 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:29:51 +0200 Subject: Jinx Message-ID: Stevenson's Book of Quotations gives a slightly different text of the song about Captain Jinks: " 'I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines, I often live beyond my means; I sport young ladies in their teens, to cut a swell in the army.' William Lingard, Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines. (1869) Chiefly remembered for Clyde Fitch's play of the same name, in which Ethel Barrymore made her debut at the Garrich Theatre, New York City, 4 Feb., 1901. Sometimes attributed to T. Maclagen." Stevenson also gives this: " 'The frolicsome company had begun to practise the ancient and now forgotten pastime of high jinks.' Scott, Guy Mannering, Ch. 36. High jinks was a game of forfeits, in which one was chosen by lot to perform some ridiculous task." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 30 17:37:12 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:37:12 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: We all know that we're not obliged to join in or even listen to all the various conversations that go on in a large group of people gathered together because of some shared interests. A ListServ offers a place to gather around a particular shared interest, but obviously doesn't require that no one can have any other interests. It has the advantage over a party or convention in that it is possible to attend_ all_ the conversations if one wishes. I like to listen when Popik talks, others may not. So they wander off. What's the problem? A. Murie From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Jul 30 17:41:42 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:41:32 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:41:32 -0700 Subject: Ellis Island et al. (was: Re: O'Kun) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always wondered whether the spelling of my surname was the result of an Ellis Island clerk's approximation of the name as he (probably) heard it, or whether it might represent a choice my immigrant ancestors to sacrifice the spelling McGrath in an attempt to get people over here to at least approximate its pronunciation in Ireland, [mIgra:]. I hadn't heard about the ships' logs as a possible source for a respelling, but I wonder about it. It seems highly unlikely that anyone in Ireland (even a British steamship line official stationed there), where an emigrant's steamship ticket would have been issued, would misspell a name that's one of the most common in Ireland and is NEVER spelled McGraw there. In any case, would U.S. immigration officials really get the passengers' names from a ship's log? Even if it was before the age of passports, wouldn't emigrants/immigrants have carried official identification "papers" of some sort, and wouldn't immigration officials have taken the names from those? (I haven't seen the research that reached the ship's log conclusion--maybe it somehow ruled this out.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 10:20 PM -0500 Donald M Lance wrote: > There's a video out by an Alan Berliner who looked up other people with > that name and had a dinner in New York for 12 of them. He did lots of > research for the project, including interviewing people who actually > worked at Ellis Island. They simply took the names from the ships' logs, > so the changes were made before they got on the boat or after they had > cleared through the Ellis facility. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 18:01:45 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:01:45 -0400 Subject: Pupicek and other such names In-Reply-To: <16d.1154d7a9.2a780e4e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 7/29/2002 3:32:33 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: > > << I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly > button). >> > > Is the -ek a genitive ending? so that "Pupicek" would be 'offspring of > Pupek'? I had real friends who were named Stepanek, Lofek, Vandreshek, and > always assumed that the -ek was like the -son of Swedish names. ek to -icek or -isek (hacek over the c/s) is an extremely productive diminutive process. rak = crab. racek (my middle name) = little crab. Franta = Frank. Frantisek = Frankie. There are scads of Czech names that are ultimately diminutives. -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 18:04:51 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:04:51 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: <5321701.1028052110@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Yes, ADS-L is a community, but we're not, as a group, intimates. Some > people within the group may have the sorts of relationships in which one > talks about more personal things, but then we do that off-list. If there > are particular people whom Barry (or anyone else) is trying to reach with > the personal info, then that info should be sent only to those people > rather than to all of us. The reason I end up deleting is that I don't > like having intimate relationships forced upon me when the interest is not > reciprocal. I concur with Lynne's entire post; thank you, Lynne, for writing what I wanted to say but couldn't think of how to say it. I think Ron's initial post was reasonable. -- Steve From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Jul 30 18:17:06 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:17:06 +0200 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: James Smith wrote: >I work with a man named Sjoblum, "sea blossom". There >were too many Johnsons on the boat his ancestors came >over on, so his progenitor was given the name of the >boat. >--- David Bergdahl wrote: >> I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were >> the ones writing out the >< tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin >> of my Swedish last name >> in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians >> got last names in the >> early years of the 19th-century there were too many >> Johnsons, Andersons, >> Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming >> convention, so the Swedish >> equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people >> should use familar >> geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, >> &c.--which is how we >> got to be "mt-valley" people. The family name "Sjöblom" is very common in Sweden, so it is most unlikely that he would have got the name on his arrival. As for "Sjöblom" being the name of a ship, this is hardly imaginable. Patronymics were the general rule in Sweden up to around 1900. As this meant difficulties for the administration, it was then recommended that people should either keep the patronymic without change or choose a new family name - but till today you can keep the patronymic custom if this is a family tradition. (My great-grandfather's name was Mons Andersson, my grandfather's Ivar Monsson. My father followed the tradition and called himself Robert Ivarsson, but a couple of his sisters kept the name Monsson. If I should want to, I still have the right to change my last name to Robertsson.) There are still a couple of hundred pages in the Stockholm telephone directory with the name "Svensson"... Many have chosen to bear a name with roots in the nature: Berg, Bergström, Bergdal, Berggren, etc. (a custom that started already in the 18th century), but changing the family name is always a decision that you take yourself - the only restriction is that you cannot today take a name that is already used. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From pds at VISI.COM Tue Jul 30 18:14:40 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:14:40 -0500 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the on-line menu of Schumacher's Fine Dining and Hotel of New Prague (rhymes with 'vague') MN http://www.schumachershotel.com/LunchMenu.htm Schumacher's has been serving these at the MN State Fair since God-knows-when. Reuben Sandwich Thinly sliced corned beef, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. Made famous at our Minnesota State Fair Restaurant. Rachel Sandwich Thinly sliced turkey, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on > the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA > Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from > Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the > menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A > REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing > on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand > island dressing on rye bread. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 30 18:34:01 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:34:01 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 06:56 AM 7/30/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > >#"...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." ># >#Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 ># >#I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing >#this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good >#meeting, etc.). > >I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I >can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was >(and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly >swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line > "Anna" Head gives great costume. > Obviously not productive, but there it was. > >-- Mark M. Edith Head? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 18:47:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:47:47 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, sagehen wrote: > We all know that we're not obliged to join in or even listen to all the > various conversations that go on in a large group of people gathered > together because of some shared interests. A ListServ offers a place to > gather around a particular shared interest, but obviously doesn't require > that no one can have any other interests. It has the advantage over a > party or convention in that it is possible to attend_ all_ the > conversations if one wishes. I like to listen when Popik talks, others may > not. So they wander off. What's the problem? It is common for a listserv, particularly one that is professional in nature such as this one, to have rules governing participation, sometimes even enforced by kicking people off the list. I no longer have the instructions I got when I joined ADS-L, but I see on the ADS web site that there is a sentence, "Completely inappropriate behavior can get you banned." The problem here is that a particular participant who contributes much of great value to the list also contributes a lot of extraneous material. He seems to have a strong need to include the extraneous material, so complete "self-censorship" is probably not going to happen. Perhaps a compromise could be reached? Could Barry try to exercise restraint in posting extraneous material (probably even those of us who have some compassion for his personal problems and are lawyers are not too interested in the New York City parking ticket system) and could list members who are bothered by the "noise-to-signal ratio" try to have some forbearance if Barry occasionally wanders off-topic? I think Barry has cut down his personal discussions from their peak level. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 19:15:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:15:07 EDT Subject: Ellis Island et al. (was: Re: O'Kun) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 1:41:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > would U.S. immigration officials really get the passengers' names from a ship's > log? Even if it was before the age of passports, wouldn't > emigrants/immigrants have carried official identification "papers" of some > sort, and wouldn't immigration officials have taken the names from those? > (I haven't seen the research that reached the ship's log conclusion--maybe > it somehow ruled this out.) No, they would not use the ship's log. They would use the passenger manifest. Any ship arriving legally at a US port knew that it had to provide the local authorities with a list of all passengers, or at least all passengers intending to debark. Whether or not the passengers carried passports or other "papers" (ID documents), the ship had to provide a manifest which, at the very least, provided a name for every face on board. The US authorities at Ellis Island and other ports could---and did---refuse entry to immigrants for several reasons, of which lack of proper documentation was one. The companies owning the passenger ships were careful to prepare manifests properly, as anyone refused entry to the US had to be carried back to Europe at company expense. First class passengers had their paperwork handled for them by the ship's crew. It was only the non-first-class passengers (which meant virtually all the immigrants) who had to carry their own papers through the Ellis Island bureaucracy. Why so many misspelling on manifests? Many immigrants were illiterate (what was the literacy rate in Ireland when the Potato Famine hit?) or were literate only in Yiddish or Russian, neither of which use the Latin alphabet. While Ellis Island had professional polyglots on its staff, most European shipping offices did not. Bad handwriting, inattention, or ignorance of Irish spelling could easily transform "McGrath" into "McGraw" or vice versa. Not to mention interchanging "McGregor" and "MacGregor". Alternatively, an Irish clerk could easily have mishandled "Okun" and "Kahn". - Jim Landau P.S. In the olden days, the speed of a ship was measured by tossing overboard a piece of wood called a "log" that was tied to a rope with evenly-spaced knots in it. The number of knots that passed over the rail before the special timing sandglass ran out equalled the ship's speed in nautical miles per hour, a rate still called "knots". The number of knots pulled out by the log was then recorded in the ship's "log book". This may sound elementary, but I once encountered a freshman calculus class not one of whose members knew that "knots" was a measure of velocity. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 20:01:57 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:01:57 -0400 Subject: fried karats Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0400 7/29/02, JJJRLandau at aol.com wrote [off-list to me]: >In a message dated 07/29/2002 11:41:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >> >A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali >moose >> >track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried >> >karats". >> >> seems more appropriate for 47th Street > >I don't catch the reference to 47th Street, which to me means the ticket booths at Duffy Square. ================= In case anyone other than Jim needs or wants the specifics, 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 20:44:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:44:49 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020730143336.00bcf9d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:34 PM -0400 7/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >> >>I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I >>can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was >>(and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly >>swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line >> "Anna" Head gives great costume. >> Obviously not productive, but there it was. >> >>-- Mark M. > >Edith Head? Yes; I've come across (er...) this one-liner on over a dozen occasions. She died a while back (early 1980's?), but I don't recall the Times obit including the line. Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 30 20:47:36 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Anna" Head gives great costume. Edith. I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great phone." Rima From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 20:59:42 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:59:42 EDT Subject: Gives Great War Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 4:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill > Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do > dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great > phone. If it's the same move I'm thinking of (no, I didn't see it), "Silver Streak" was released in the winter of 1985-86. During the first play I ever worked backstage on ("Anything Goes", fall of 1977), the captain of the ship gets handed a note. The note was supposed to be a blank piece of paper, but on the final night it read "Gabriel gives good head." - Jim Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 21:08:24 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:08:24 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War Message-ID: "Silver Streak" was released in 1976. I saw it two or three years later and remember the "gives great phone" double entendre (spoken as Jill Clayburgh and Gene Wilder are seducing each other). This was the earliest example I've seen of "gives great head" being extended to "gives great X." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 5:00 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Gives Great War In a message dated 7/30/02 4:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill > Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do > dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great > phone. If it's the same move I'm thinking of (no, I didn't see it), "Silver Streak" was released in the winter of 1985-86. During the first play I ever worked backstage on ("Anything Goes", fall of 1977), the captain of the ship gets handed a note. The note was supposed to be a blank piece of paper, but on the final night it read "Gabriel gives good head." - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 21:06:36 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:06:36 -0400 Subject: "gives good/great X" Message-ID: This seems to come up, as it were, every year or two, so I'll mention again as I've mentioned before that the HDAS has an entry for the phrase "give good/great X" (where "X" is not "head"), with examples back to 1971. Jesse Sheidlower From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 21:07:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:07:45 EDT Subject: fried karats Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 4:00:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being > Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all > those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. When we crossed 47th Street we were definitely in the Theater District and did not see any noticeable jewelry businesses. Perhaps the Diamond Merchants are on a different stretch of 47th Street? I was once supposed to meet my family at a particular Kosher restaurant somewhere around 47th Street. No luck finding it. I did the one thing that in my previous experience ALWAYS WORKED---stop at a fire station and ask. "We'd like to help you," the firemen said, "but we're Italian." So I went into a nearby store that obviously believed in Diversity in Hiring and started looking at nametags. The first salesman I saw was African-American. No good. The next was Hispanic. Ditto. I glanced at half a dozen salespeople before I found one whose nametag read "Seltzer." So I asked him and he gave me correct directions without pausing. - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 21:09:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:09:48 -0400 Subject: fried karats In-Reply-To: <195.a89a2f0.2a785a21@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 05:07:45PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 7/30/02 4:00:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being > > Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all > > those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. > > When we crossed 47th Street we were definitely in the Theater District and > did not see any noticeable jewelry businesses. Perhaps the Diamond Merchants > are on a different stretch of 47th Street? The diamond district is roughly between Madison and Sixth Ave.; it doesn't extend into the theater district. Jesse Sheidlower New York, NY From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 21:57:04 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:57:04 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: <3D46C977.479593A0@missouri.edu> Message-ID: That's the problem with trying to censor input to a group like this. The range of interests, specialty, and expertise are far ranging and catholic. It's pretty arrogant to assume that if a topic is not interesting to oneself that it is not interesting to anyone else either. But to address the complaint directly, a superior field person collects widely and only sorts back at the lab, often with the help of those more capable of judging the significance of a find. Some of us have talent as collectors, others as sorters, and others as cataloguers. Besides, who's to say that the pile of words one sorter discards isn't vitally interesting to another etymologist or, perhaps more importantly, another etymologist in another time? Barry's notation, if the archives of this list somehow survive, may be the only surviving reference in 2245 describing how a Rachael sandwich is actually constructed. rhk |o| |o| > I don't see why a complaint |o| > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an |o| attack on his |o| > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. |o| |o| Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that |o| make me an |o| insightful entomologist? |o| From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 30 23:35:42 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:35:42 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" In-Reply-To: <001401c237f0$5e780d80$5eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? No, insofar as it deals with the question, "What is appropriate material to post to the list?" That meta-topic is considered appropriate on almost or actually every list and newsgroup that I am or have been on. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 23:48:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:48:29 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: Although, strictly speaking, this is true, I had much rather read Barry's posts than wade through wrangling about whether a valuable contributor occasionally goes too far with off-topic content. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at THEWORLD.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 7:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Sticking to "business" On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? No, insofar as it deals with the question, "What is appropriate material to post to the list?" That meta-topic is considered appropriate on almost or actually every list and newsgroup that I am or have been on. -- Mark A. Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 31 00:08:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:08:23 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Fred Shapiro has ably stated the issue of Barry's postings, acknowledging both the value of his work and the desirability of limiting the OT personal information. I'm not at all troubled by hearing who Barry sat next to on his trips, but clearly some ads-l members are. With that said, I'd like to re-emphasize the enormous scholarly value of Barry's work. He has made major contributions to the understanding of "The Big Apple," "hot dog," "dude," "I'm from Missouri, you've got to show me," "Windy City," "rush the growler," "yegg" (safecracker), "jinx" (which I'll comment on in a message tomorrow), "Yankees" (baseball team). My index of Comments on Etymology, contain 75+ items of his that I've published--most of which I've written up based on material he provided. These articles (actually, working papers) concern a range of topics such as "thousand island dressing," "emery ball" (baseball pitch), "crouch start," "crepes suzette," "gift shop," "chiffon pie," "sis-boom-bah," etc. etc. etc. Before Barry started globe-trotting, he spent countless hours in various libraries and historical societies ferreting out all sorts of information. Other than newspaper librarians, there is probably no-one in the U.S. more familiar with obscure publications than he is. In pre-Internet days he sent me piles of material which I am doing my best to work through. With the advent of the Internet, he began sharing his material with ads-l. I'm some twenty years Barry's senior and as an academic would normally be the leader, with Barry carrying out my agenda much as a graduate student would. But in the present case our roles are somewhat reversed. I learn an enormous amount just following Barry's lead and seeing what all he comes up with. His material usually requires polishing, and I'm doing my best to keep pace with him (unsuccessfully). BTW, besides Barry's postings, there is much other valuable ads-l material waiting to be polished and compiled into articles. If anyone is looking for new directions for research on American speech, this is perhaps the most important one. Gerald Cohen co-author with Barry: _Studies in Slang_, vol. 6, (Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang), 1999. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 01:03:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:03:55 EDT Subject: Kosher restaurant (1866, 1867) Message-ID: THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE was published in Cincinnati from 1854. It was first called THE ISRAELITE. The word "kosher" was used early, but mostly in Hebrew. The first use in English (this would be OED's second cite, after 1851) is: 30 March 1855, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 304, col 1 ad: NEW ENGLAND HOUSE, Hartford, Conn. THE UNDERSIGNED RESPECTFULLY calls the attention of his friends and the travelling community at large, to his commodious and well managed hotel, No. 55, Front street, Hartford, Conn. The best accommodations and a first rate _kosher_ table will be found at any time. SIMON SELLING, Proprietor As for the first "kosher restaurant," take your pick with these two: 9 November 1866, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 6, col. 4 ad: M. BERLINGER'S KOSHER BOARDING HOUSE AND RESTAURANT No. 13 Lodge Street between 5th and 6th CINCINNATI, O. Meals at all hours of the Day. 15 February 1867, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 7, col. 3: G. SELIGMAN begs to inform you that he will remove from his present premises, No. 254 Broadway, New York To the BASEMENT No. 20 White Street, Near Church, And open on the 1st of FEBRUARY his well known ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT Where he will continue to serve dinners (and a cup of coffee) for fifty cents. Breakfast and supper _a la carte_. G. Seligman begs to return thanks for past favors, and solicits a continuance of the same at his new and spacious premises, where he will endeavor to do still better. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 01:49:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:49:11 EDT Subject: Frankfurter, Vienna Sausage, Wienerwurst in THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE Message-ID: THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE was published in Cincinnati from 1854. Cincinnati was then known as the Hog Capital of America, Porkopolis, Pork Town, or what have you. Pork ads wouldn't make the newspaper, but ads for kosher meats are very important. 16 February 1855, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 256, col. 6 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) Smoked Meat, Sausages, &c., &c. LEOPOLD MARKS Butcher and Dealer in SMOKED MEATS, SAUSAGES, &c. 136 George, near Western Row 6 January 1882, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 223, col. 5 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) S. HUTTENBAUER S. W. Cor. Seventh and Walnut Sts., CINCINNATI, O. Wholesale and Retail Dealer in Dried Beef, Pickled Beef. Knoblauch Wurst, Wiener Wurst, Bolognas and Smoked Tongues. (OED has 1889 for "wienerwurst"--ed.) 4 March 1887, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 9, col. 6 ad: L. M. HELLER'S ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) XLCR _Frankfurter Sausages_ AND BOLOGNAS Pickled and Smoked Meats, Tongues, Etc. 300 East 77th St., EAST OF SECOND AVENUE--NEW YORK 8 April 1887, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, Pg. 10, col. 3 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew flanks this name--ed.) Nathan Heldman, N. E. Cor. 6th and Smith Sts, CINCINNATI, O. DEALER IN Kosher Meats only. Smoked Beef and Sausage. Pickled Beef, Tongues, Frankfurter Wurst and the "a la Schweinfurt" sausage, put up expressly for family use only. 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 2, cols. 5-6 ad: ESTABLISHED 14 YEARS! _M. ZIMMERMANN_ 318 E. HOUSTON ST., NEW YORK MANUFACTURER, WHOLESALE AND RETAIL DEALER IN CELEBRATED _VIENNA SAUSAGES!_ _CORNED_ _SMOKED_ _BEEF!_ _BEEF!_ (OED has 1958 for "Vienna sausage"??--ed.) 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 3, col. 3 ad: G. GOLDMANN, 314 East Houston Street, NEW YORK. MANUFACTURER OF THE CELEBRATED _FRANKFURTER SAUSAGES AND BOLOGNAS,_ Roasted Beef, Tongues and Corned Beef. 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: ASK FOR THE BEST _PEISER'S_ SMOKED MEATS, BOLOGNAS, & FRANKFORT SAUSAGES. GENUINE ONLY WITH OUR TRADE MARK. Factory 1361 3rd Ave., New York. I also found a good Deli: 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 10, col. 3: BRANCH DELICATESSE, S. W. CORNER FOURTH AND PLUM STREETS Conducted After the Style and System of _The Delicatesse._ No. 227 Main Street, Lincoln Inn Court. Service Cheaper, Better and Quicker Than Other Lunch Rooms in the City. EVERYTHING HOME-MADE. (See old ADS-L archives for an old "delicatessen," if it's still there--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 02:01:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:01:38 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: The expression "auction block" originally refers to the block on which slaves stood when they were sold. This sense dates back to the mid-nineteenth century, at least. The earliest example I've seen of the figurative sense 'the open market' or some such, as in "MegaCorp is putting their Foobar division on the auction block," is from the 1940s or so. I've never heard any objection to the free use of this phrase, and I'm wondering if I've missed this, or if no one has objected to it. As we know, there are periodic objections to words or expressions of innocent origin--"picnic", "niggardly", "nitty-gritty", "call a spade a spade"--because of their incorrectly assumed racial origins. But here we have something that is genuinely a slave term, but has passed largely unnoticed. Thoughts? Jesse Sheidlower From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 31 02:01:12 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:01:12 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: For the record, I didn't claim that Popik's research wasn't interesting to some, and I certainly wouldn't argue that it isn't valuable, since it's not my field. I was simply quibbling over the label 'insightful' which I think implies more than documenting occurrences of words. Still, I think my comment was inappropriately ad hominem, and I apologize. -----Original Message----- From: Rick H Kennerly [mailto:Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM] Sent: Tue 7/30/2002 4:57 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research That's the problem with trying to censor input to a group like this. The range of interests, specialty, and expertise are far ranging and catholic. It's pretty arrogant to assume that if a topic is not interesting to oneself that it is not interesting to anyone else either. But to address the complaint directly, a superior field person collects widely and only sorts back at the lab, often with the help of those more capable of judging the significance of a find. Some of us have talent as collectors, others as sorters, and others as cataloguers. Besides, who's to say that the pile of words one sorter discards isn't vitally interesting to another etymologist or, perhaps more importantly, another etymologist in another time? Barry's notation, if the archives of this list somehow survive, may be the only surviving reference in 2245 describing how a Rachael sandwich is actually constructed. rhk |o| |o| > I don't see why a complaint |o| > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an |o| attack on his |o| > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. |o| |o| Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that |o| make me an |o| insightful entomologist? |o| From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 02:42:23 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:42:23 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: <20020731020138.GA29001@panix.com> Message-ID: LOTS of things have been put on auction blocks over the centuries, certainly not just humans. I think "auction block" is not stigmatized by the fact that humans have sometimes been on the block. Frank Abate From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 31 03:00:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:00:37 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: How much support is there for your premise, that "auction block" refers specifically to slaves? I took a quick look at the cases. The earliest use I saw, from 1865, does indeed give some support to the slave theory: >>A new profession had been created who cheated their victims, stole and kidnapped men and put them on the auction-block and sold them, in shameless defiance of all decency.<< Speer v. Borough of Blairsville School Directors, 50 Pa. 150 (1865). But the next cite, seven years later, implies that the auction block is equally usable for auctioning other types of property: >>The pleadings and adjudications have become records; the stentorian voice of the judge is hushed to the mere scratch of a pen, and the gentlemanly clerk quietly attests the seal of authority which consigns the unfortunate suitor's goods and chattels to the auction block. And so the footprints of progress are discovered even in the chambers of Westminster.<< Gamble v. Jacksonville, P. & M.R. Co., 14 Fla. 226 (1872). And we do see a figurative sense in the third use, from 1881: >>Is it possible that the General Assembly [i.e., the legislature] may put up such [tax] exemptions on the auction block, and knock them down to the highest bidder, or may, on a pretended or fictitious consideration, bind themselves and succeeding legislatures never to resume the power to impose just taxes on the property of the individual or corporate body?<< City of East St. Louis v. East St. Louis Gas Light & Coke Co., 98 Ill. 415 (1881). Note that none of these uses actually are from a slave state at a time when slavery was legal. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" The expression "auction block" originally refers to the block on which slaves stood when they were sold. This sense dates back to the mid-nineteenth century, at least. The earliest example I've seen of the figurative sense 'the open market' or some such, as in "MegaCorp is putting their Foobar division on the auction block," is from the 1940s or so. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 03:08:59 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:08:59 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:00:37PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > How much support is there for your premise, that "auction >block" refers specifically to slaves? I took a quick look at >the cases. The earliest use I saw, from 1865, does indeed >give some support to the slave theory: [...] > But the next cite, seven years later, implies that the > auction block is equally usable for auctioning other types > of property: [...] I don't dispute the fact that the phrase has been in use for some time even in a figurative sense, nor that auctions have been around for a very long time, as Frank acknowledges. But my earliest example (which I don't have now, I'm at home) of the _phrase_ "auction block" is several decades earlier than 1865, and it and other examples seem to suggest that the phrase was associated with slavery in a more than random way. I appreciate these earlier figurative examples, but it still seems to me the phrase arose in connection with slavery, and I question why this hasn't incited any objection. I should mention that this was called to my attention by someone who wrote to OED saying, "Is it true that _auction block_ originally refers to slavery?" So there's a sense out there, at least for this one correspondent, that _auction block_ has these connotations--surely this must be the case for others. Jesse Sheidlower From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 03:08:54 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:08:54 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: Barry is a unique individual who reports what he sees, finds, and thinks. Much of this is the reporting of research of immense value; some is not. ADS-L is an open email discussion group. We are all individually who we are. That is as it should be, or even as it must be. If some particular folks have problems with the postings from some certain particular folks, then they can simply skim, delete, or ignore the postings from them. I certainly do this, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Please tolerate or ignore or delete eccentricity. We are each of us given to it from time to time. Oh, and lighten up. Frank Abate From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 03:30:57 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:30:57 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Nominal Egg Message-ID: Just got this from my brother-in-law and thought I'd post it here for comment: >A number of years ago Safire had a nice column in which he posited >that people would say "nominal egg" instead of "an arm and a leg". I >decided to (look)for that article but instead found a number of >people simply using the term. Do you have any information about the >history of the term and whether it was already in use before his >column. > Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 04:31:49 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:31:49 EDT Subject: Schmooze (1884), Schadchen, Trefa Fresser (1885), Mazel, Oi Wai (1886) Message-ID: This is a much earlier dating for "schmooze," which the OED and Merriam-Webster date from 1897. I realize that "schmooze" is completely banned on ADS-L, but am providing the antedate anyway. I'm going through the first 20 years of THE AMERICAN HEBREW, and this will be part of several posts from that periodical. 6 November 1884, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 206, col. 3: ANTI SHNORRING. (...) If again, it is to benefit the professional _shnorrer_, the less provision we make for him the better. 12 December 1884, pg. 69, col. 2: Mrs. Asher, that is to say, the _schwarze Riveah_, by which title she was more generally known, did up her house-work; stood out in the hall gossiping with neighbors; came in to do some mending; went out for another does of _schmussing_; sat down to a bite for lunch; got up for more gossip, until through the vast building there echoed a wild, demoniacal yell that brought forth from all the doors a mass of womanhood that filled the corridors and choked the stairs, until it reached the howling letter-carrier. who had a letter for Mr. Asher. 20 February 1885, pg. 17, col. 2: Can you ever gaze unawed upon this sad plight of the lone and lorn _schadchen_! (...) How could you with one fell blow strike at the roots of such a hoary, remarkable institution as the mercantile _shiddich_! (OED has 1890 for "schadchen"--ed.) 1 May 1885, pg. 177, col. 1: THERE runs a proverb (Hebrew--ed.) "who changes his place, changes his luck." 15 May 1885, (The edges of the newspaper have been destroyed--page number not available; it's in the "Grand Lodge" story--ed.), col. 2: After the Rabbinical conference at Philadelphia, he denounced his colleagues as _trefa fressers_, he repudiated his own motion made at the conference, he swallowed his own words, and now he denounces the colleagues who would not eat _trefa_ and charges them with the terrific crime of adhering to the "kitchen and stomach" religion. 19 June 1885, pg. 82, col. 1: The report is current that one of our metropolitan synagogues proposes to issue a new eidtion of the _Machsor_, and at once the imagination suggests one more edition to the long list of "Minhags" which already forms the distinguishing feature of American Judaism. (The revised OED has 1880 for "minhag," but then a 60-year gap--ed.) 31 July 1885, pg. 185, col. 3: _Chalitza_, or casting the shoe, is founded on the 25th chapter of Deutoronomy, verses 7, 8 and 9, which provide that in the death of a man, childless, it shall be the duty of a brother, if the husband have one living, to marry the widow, and she must not take any one else until he shall have declined, in the presence of the elders, to assume that obligation. (There is only one "chalitzah" hit in the OED?--ed.) 15 October 1886, pg. 147, col. 1: But whether the reason of this change be ascertained or not, the fact is incontestable, that our coreligionist, on his arrival on board ship, is already manifesting the first signs of American patented "_Hutzpe_" (colloquial, _cheek_). (...)(Col. 2-ed.) His long shining beard, the winds of the ocean used to play with, was reduced to a _minimum_, and of the beautiful _pyous_ (side-locks) nothing, alas, was left but two thin bunches of hair ending in cork-screw points. 22 October 1886, pg. 163, col. 1: "_Mamser tome_," (rascal) said Saloshitz with indignation. (OED has "mamzer" meaning "bastard" from 1562, but the other sense of the term is from 1929?--ed.) 22 October 1886, pg. 163, col. 2: "_Oi wai geschreien un oi wai gerufen / may God have _rachmonus_ (pity) on me!" was the natural exclamation of sorrow that slipped out of his oppressed heart... 24 December 1886, pg. 104, col. 1: They attached a particular importance to the peculair constellation of the stars, called (_Mazel_), and thought that those men who were born under a favorable star were more distinguished by the smile of fortune than others who were not. Thus it came that the word Mazel was adopted as the term for luck or happiness. (...) Nay, on joyful occasions it was, and it is still to-day, a complimentary term to express our wishes in the words _Mazel Tov_, that is: "good luck." (The revised OED has 1898 for "mazel"?--ed.) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 31 13:54:58 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:54:58 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: BP's response to RB's posting promted this reflection, which I hope is of some consolation to him: some (perhaps more than a few?) of us who do lexical research feel underpaid, overworked, and of little value to those in positions of power, and half worry that, after years of toiling away in sedentary solitude, we'll turn into fat old eccentrics. But after all, we're in good company. Remember Samuel Johnson? Joanne From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 14:13:36 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:13:36 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <3D47B3F2.29926.461E2BF@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:54:58AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > > Remember Samuel Johnson. No. Who was he? Jesse Sheidlower From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 31 14:20:59 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:20:59 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: So what are these earlier examples, Jesse? Looking at the cites in the Making of America database, it appears that most early uses of "auction block" were pejorative uses by abolitionist writers starting in the early 1850s. Of course, it's possible that the MoA database has a pro-abolitionist bias. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Potential racism of "auction block" I don't dispute the fact that the phrase has been in use for some time even in a figurative sense, nor that auctions have been around for a very long time, as Frank acknowledges. But my earliest example (which I don't have now, I'm at home) of the _phrase_ "auction block" is several decades earlier than 1865, and it and other examples seem to suggest that the phrase was associated with slavery in a more than random way. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 31 14:45:30 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:45:30 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <20020731141335.GD22920@panix.com> Message-ID: > Remember Samuel Johnson. No. Who was he? Oh, just this fat old kvetch who wrote a dictionary. Joanne From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Jul 31 14:51:08 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:51:08 +0100 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: Come on, Jesse, of course you know: Samuel Johnson, who with the Rev. John Elliott wrote in 1800 one of the earliest of US dictionaries: A Selected Pronouncing and Accented Dictionary. By mistake (or so they claimed), they included that fine word 'foutra'. But not, I imagine, in the second edition. Jonathon Green From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 14:57:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: Chalitza In-Reply-To: <96.2a29a24b.2a78c235@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:31 AM -0400 7/31/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >[AMERICAN ISRAELITE] >31 July 1885, pg. 185, col. 3: > _Chalitza_, or casting the shoe, is founded on the 25th chapter of >Deutoronomy, verses 7, 8 and 9, which provide that in the death of a man, >childless, it shall be the duty of a brother, if the husband have one living, >to marry the widow, and she must not take any one else until he shall have >declined, in the presence of the elders, to assume that obligation. Hmm. Doesn't even mention the part where the widow (after pulling off the guy's sandal, and we know all about what *that* means from old Sigmund) gets to spit in the levirate-violating brother-in-law's face and announce "So it shall be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house". Traditionnnnnnn, tradition! larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 31 16:11:11 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:11:11 -0400 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <20020730181441.81FBD7A928@taranis.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: In German but non-Jewish southern Minnesota, it's no wonder the Rachel was changed! Turkey raising is big in that area too--and the restaurant IS famous (I've been there). At 01:14 PM 7/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: > From the on-line menu of Schumacher's Fine Dining and Hotel of New Prague >(rhymes with 'vague') MN >http://www.schumachershotel.com/LunchMenu.htm > >Schumacher's has been serving these at the MN State Fair since >God-knows-when. > >Reuben Sandwich >Thinly sliced corned beef, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand >Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. >Made famous at our Minnesota State Fair Restaurant. > >Rachel Sandwich >Thinly sliced turkey, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand >Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. > > >Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > >>REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on >>the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA >>Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from >>Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the >>menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A >>REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing >>on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand >>island dressing on rye bread. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 31 16:23:55 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:23:55 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <20020731141335.GD22920@panix.com> Message-ID: |o| > |o| > Remember Samuel Johnson. |o| |o| No. Who was he? |o| Just another guy on this list. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 31 16:29:10 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:29:10 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| So what are these earlier examples, Jesse? |o| Not Jesse, but I've got: Narrative of the life and adventures of Henry Bibb, an American slave, written by himself. by Henry Bibb w/ intro by Lucius C. Matlack. 1850 "After the men were all sold they then [unclear: ] the women and children. They ordered the first woman to lay down her child and mount the auction block; she refused to give up her little one and clung to it as long as she could, while the cruel lash was applied to her back for disobedience" rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 18:24:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:24:32 EDT Subject: Reuben & Rachel Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 6:39:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on > the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA > Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from > Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the > menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A > REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island > dressing > on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand > island dressing on rye bread. The song "Reuben and Rachel" Reuben, Reuben, I've been thinking What a queer world this would be If the men were all transported Far beyond the Northern Sea! etc. has been around forever---it may be an authentic anonymous folk song, although one Web site (http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/usa/reubenan.htm) says that the melody was written in 1871 by one William Gooch. Even older is the book "Reuben and Rachel: or, Tales of Old Times; a Novel " by Suzanna Rowson, published in 1799. Now MWCD10 gives the etymology of "Reuben [sandwich]" as "prob. fr. Reuben Kulakofsky died 1960 Am. grocer" and dates it 1956. (I have no idea whether the ADS-L archives has anything different.) Conclusion: any restaurant or delicatessen which advertises sandwiches of its own invention is likely to think of inventing a sandwich to be named the "Rachel" after the song to accompany the now-standardized Reuben. However, there is AS YET no standardization of what is meant by a "Rachel", merely whatever the restauranteur (e.g. "Arbuckle") happens to choose to offer. It appears that the indefatigable Judge Popik has managed to produce a definitive etymology for a term which does not yet exist. Other items: I think this was covered on the list a while ago, but whereas "iced tea" has ice in it, should not "ice tea" be frozen solid? I still say that frozen potato skins were available commercially from food wholesalers by 1980. That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very tasty. Cole slaw is crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole slaws use a sauce that is not all that different from Thousand Island dressing, with the result that Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich with cabbage added for crunch. - Jim Landau (who learned to make cole slaw from a World War II-era US Navy recipe that advocated wholesale quantities of black pepper). From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 19:00:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:00:08 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: Just saw (1) in an internet mailing. Neither theory strikes me as particularly plausible or as definitively implausible, but I didn't see a listing at Michael Q's worldwidewords and I'm not sure whom else to trust. Anyone? [I see from other web sites that "jolie rougère" is another and perhaps more phonologically likely version of the first account..] I've appended in (2) the straightdope.com response to a similar query below, but as you see Cecil's rather agnostic on this one. larry ======================= (1) Why is the skull and crossbones symbol called the jolly roger? "There are many theories but two in particular stand out: 1. The 'Jolly Roger 'is a corruption of the French 'Jolie Rouge'or 'Beautiful Red'- describing the pennant often flown by pirates and buccaneers to inform their enemies that no quarter would be given. The term then adapted itself to any ships crew that would offer no quarter in battle. 2. Bartholomew Roberts, a French buccaneer in the early 1600s flew the skull and cross bones and he himself was often referred to as 'Old Roger', which was yet another name for the devil. Robert's seemingly performed his pirate duties with enthusiasm and enjoyment, thus, the 'Jolly Roger' or, in other words, the Happy Devil." ======================= (2) Dear Cecil: Of course he's jolly because he hasn't any lips, but who was that flayed "Roger" immortalized by the buccaneers on their skull and crossbones? What part of the skeleton are the crossbones taken from? Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by fighter pilots and other military types? --Jeremy L., Baltimore Dear Jeremy: He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What kind of weird coastal humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the witticisms around here to me. Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco. The origins of the term are disputed. According to one theory, the buccaneers who operated around the West Indies in the 1600s used a red flag dipped in blood or paint, whichever could be gotten more conveniently. The French supposedly called this the "joli rouge," which the English, with their traditional disregard for the niceties of pronunciation, corrupted into Jolly Roger. Later the term was applied to the familiar black-flag-cum-bones that began to appear in various forms around 1700. An alternative hypothesis involves certain Asian pirates whose chiefs called held the title Ali Raja, "king of sea." The English naturally thought that THEY were the kings of the sea, and appropriated the term, suitably amended, for their own use. Unfortunately, both these explanations, as one historian puts it, "are so plausible that neither can be accepted as correct," plausibility being pretty much a sure sign of error in the etymology business. Some venture the opinion that Jolly Roger may simply derive from the English word "roger," meaning a wandering vagabond, noting that "Old Roger" was a popular canting term for the devil. The bone of choice for the crossbones, I suppose, would be the femur, or thigh-bone. Dare I ask why you want to know? --CECIL ADAMS From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 31 19:24:49 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: Nominal Egg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have searched through the databases and the ancient card catalogue of columns and can find no reference to or usage of "nominal egg" in Safire's columns. In fact, I can't find a use of "nominal egg" anywhere in the NY Times. Lederer noticed it in his "Jumping to Confusions" chapter of "More Anguished English" [1993] as "Nominal Leg." [Searched WS's columns for "nominal leg", "arm and a leg" and several combos thereof - nothing.] Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 08:30 PM 7/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >Just got this from my brother-in-law and thought I'd post it here for comment: > >>A number of years ago Safire had a nice column in which he posited >>that people would say "nominal egg" instead of "an arm and a leg". I >>decided to (look)for that article but instead found a number of >>people simply using the term. Do you have any information about the >>history of the term and whether it was already in use before his >>column. >Rima From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 19:28:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:28:41 EDT Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: In a message dated 7/31/02 2:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU quotes: > Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by > fighter pilots and other military types? > > Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco The people Laurence Horn are quoting are wrong here. "Roger" used by a pilot is not specific to the military. Civilian pilots use the same terminology. The delusion that it is military is caused by there being so many more movies about fighter pilots than about airliner pilots or for that matter bomber pilots. >From the Airman's Information Manual, published by the FAA: ROGER---"I have received all of your last transmission." It should not be used to answer a question requring a yes or no answer. WILCO---"I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it." Hence "Roger Wilco" is aerial shorthand for two complete independent clauses: "I have received your message AND I will comply with it." "Roger" is the code word for the letter "R" in the old "Able-Baker-Charlie" alphabet used in World War II (and still occasionally heard today). The "Alfa-Bravo-Charlie" ICAO alphabet which replaced the older one uses "Romeo" for "R", but I've never heard of any pirates flying the Jolly Romeo. "Wilco" is simply a portmanteau of "WILl COmply". - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 31 19:35:16 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:35:16 -0700 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <164.118a69e2.2a798560@aol.com> Message-ID: > > That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very > tasty. Cole slaw is > crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole > slaws use a sauce that is not > all that different from Thousand Island dressing, > with the result that > Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere > corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich > with cabbage added for crunch. > The Rachel is basically the sandwich that I've known as an X special (corned beef special, roast beef special, etc.) and in North Jersey found is called a sloppy joe. And for me it's one of my favorite sandwiches. The cole slaw actually goes well with the other ingredients. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 31 20:08:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:08:01 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: Larry Horn, quoting Cecil Adams: >He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What kind of weird coastal >humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the witticisms around here >to me. ~~~~~~~~ Why not? Skulls are often referred to as "grinning," precisely because all the teeth are visible. A. Murie From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 31 20:30:59 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hamlet to Yorick's skull: "Not one now, to mock your own grinning?" Ed --- sagehen wrote: > Larry Horn, quoting Cecil Adams: > > >He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What > kind of weird coastal > >humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the > witticisms around here > >to me. > ~~~~~~~~ > Why not? Skulls are often referred to as > "grinning," precisely because all > the teeth are visible. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 20:30:10 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob Haas asked: >> Didn't Carl Perkins have a song titled "Honey Don't"? << Yes, he did. And it was covered by the Beatles, with Ringo Starr singing, on one of their early albums. I believe he even sat in on the Beatles' studio session for the song. Of course, his "Blue Suede Shoes" was covered by Elvis, who in that case had the bigger hit, by far. Carl was real lucky, and made big money from covers. Frank Abate From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 31 21:29:51 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:29:51 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com Message-ID: You have been sent this message from millerk at nytimes.com as a courtesy of the Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com Swarming, fleshmet and drunk-dialing all in one article. To view the entire article, go to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23395-2002Jul30.html Cell Biology By Joel Garreau At the University of St. Andrews, where he studies art history, the royal hottie Prince William can't even go out for drinks with friends without being tracked electronically by a pack of wired women. "A quite sophisticated text messaging network has sprung up," an "insider" told the Scottish Daily Record. "If William is spotted anywhere in the town then messages are sent out" on his admirers' cell phones. "It starts off quite small. The first messages are then forwarded to more girls and so on. It just has a snowball effect. Informing 100 girls of his movements takes just seconds." At one bar, the prince had to be moved to a safe location when more than 100 "lusty ladies," so alerted, suddenly mobbed the place like cats responding to the sound of a can opener. Chalk up another life changed by "swarming," a behavior that is transforming social, work, military and even political lives worldwide, especially among the young. It is the unintended consequence of people, cell phones in hand, learning that they can coordinate instantly and leaderlessly. "It's the search for peak experience, something that's really going to be special," says Adam Eidinger, a District political organizer. "It happened to me just last week. There was a concert at Fort Reno -- Fugazi." His cell rang. "There's this guy, Bernardo, who's one of the biggest swarmer cell-phone people I know." Came the restless call: " 'Where are you? There are all these people here!' And he wasn't just calling us. He called 25 people. Pretty soon everybody he knew was sitting on the grass, and none of them knew they were going to be there that morning." This is the precise opposite of a 1962-style "American Graffiti" world. Then you had to go to a place -- the strip, the drive-in -- to find out what was going on. Now, you find out what's going on by cell phone, and go to the place where it's happening. Swarming is a classic example of how once-isolated individuals are discovering a new way to organize order out of chaos, without guidance. It reverses the idea that geography, in an Internet age, has become irrelevant -- the whole point is to bring people together in one location for face-to-face contact. Swarming is also leading to such wondrous social developments as "time-softening," "cell dancing," "life skittering," "posse pinging," "drunk dialing," and "smart mobs." Movement Made to Order Howard Rheingold is an apostle of swarming. A colorful character who tastefully paints his black dress shoes with moons, stars, planets and flames, Rheingold has for a generation examined the unintended and imaginative uses of new technology by society. He helped pioneer virtual communities -- a phrase he invented -- before most people had even heard of e-mail or seen a cell phone. This was in such a dim and murky past -- 1988 -- that human relationships created simply by typing into the ether were then seen by pundits as preposterous. This was before "fleshmet" entered the lexicon of the early adopters. As in: "Oh yeah, we know each other real well -- although I don't think we've ever fleshmet." As the Internet and mobile communications merge, as cell phones increasingly become something that a teenager gets with her driver's license, and as they shrink from a tool you carry to a fashion item that you wear, Rheingold sees a profound shift in society. "They amplify human talents for cooperation," he says. This is by no means all fun and games. The gear was used by "some of its earliest adopters to support democracy and by others to coordinate terrorist attacks," says Rheingold, whose forthcoming book is called "Smart Mobs: The Next Social Revolution." Smart mobs are a serious realignment of human affairs, in which leaders may determine an overall goal, but the actual execution is created on the fly by participants at the lowest possible level who are constantly innovating, Rheingold notes. They respond to changing situations without requesting or needing permission. In some cases, even the goal is determined collaboratively and non-hierarchically. It is the warp-speed embodiment of Gandhi's maxim, "There go my people, I must run to catch up with them for I am their leader." The key to the power of mobiles -- including hybrids like two-way pagers, Blackberry e-mailers, personal digital assistants merged with phones, wireless laptops, and phones merged with two-way radios -- is that they liberate people from their desktop telephones and computers, moving the action out to that much larger portion of life that encompasses wherever and whenever humans roam. "My friends call me on my cell even when I'm at home," says one teenager who is a child of divorce, "because they don't know whether I'm at my mom's house or my dad's." It's an always-on world when you can communicate on the street and in the car. Especially as text-messaging -- e-mail on the go piped to your mobile -- increases in popularity, you can see in the States behavior that is already ubiquitous in Europe and Asia. You can message silently in meetings, you can do it while in conversation with somebody else, and you can forward and share connections with others. And you can do it much faster than you ever could before, by text or voice. Former Philippine president Joseph Estrada, accused of massive corruption, was driven out of power two years ago by smart mobs who swarmed to demonstrations, alerted by their cell phones, gathering in no time. "It's like pizza delivery," Alex Magno, a political science professor at the University of the Philippines, told The Post at the time. "You can get a rally in 30 minutes -- delivered to you." Cell phones drove political change in that upheaval the way fax machines enabled Tiananmen Square, cassette recordings fired the Iranian revolution, photocopiers fueled the Polish Solidarity uprising and short-wave radios aided the French Resistance. The difference was the amazing speed with which people could swarm. It created not only a new kind of protest, but a new kind of protester. "It's a great way to get people who are in offices involved," Christina Bautisto, who works in Manila's financial district, said of her fellow professionals. "They don't have to spend all day protesting. They just get a message telling them when it's starting, and then they take the elevator down to the street. They can be seen, scream a little and then go back to work." In Washington, mobile-mediated swarms are regular highlights of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund protests. "I don't want to give away all our tricks," says Eidinger, the political activist. "But wireless plays a huge role." That includes everything from little "Family Pack" communicators from Radio Shack on up to sophisticated channel-skipping radios that are not easily monitored, all of which are used by "flying squads" to respond quickly to unanticipated opportunities. Cell phones are in constant use by lawyers seeking court orders designed to complicate the lives of the authorities as the protest is still evolving. Swarming is also the hallmark of the Critical Mass smart mobs on bicycles that clog Washington streets the first Friday of most months, protesting the effects of the automobile. "The people up front and the people in back are in constant communication, by cell phone and walkie-talkies and hand signals," says Eidinger. "Everything is played by ear. On the fly, we can change the direction of the swarm -- 230 people, a giant bike mass. That's why the police have very little control. They have no idea where the group is going." The U.S. military has been one of the earliest institutions to both fear and see the possibilities in swarming. John Arquilla co-authored "Swarming and the Future of Conflict" two years ago for the think tank Rand Corp. and the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He sees swarming -- "a deliberately structured, coordinated, strategic way to strike from all directions" -- as spearheading a revolution in military affairs. "The military has much to learn from Critical Mass," he writes in an e-mail. "I used to go up to San Francisco regularly to see this leaderless swarm of bicyclists bring traffic to a complete halt for two hours. Once I asked a police sergeant, as he stood observing by the Ferry Building, what he was going to do about this. He shrugged his shoulders and asked back, 'What would you have me do?' " "In future campaigns," Arquilla says, leaders might benefit by simply "drawing up a list of targets, fixed and mobile, and attaching point values to them. Then units in the field, in the air and at sea could simply pick whatever hadn't yet been taken. The commander would review periodic progress, adjust point values if needed from time to time, and basically stay the hell out of the way of the swarm." Despite the sober implications, social swarms are easily the most common and intriguing for most people. "Cities are important places for young people who want to meet other people of the appropriate gender for purposes of mating," Rheingold says. "But also, they're developing their social networks. In Tokyo, they flock to fast-food joints. In Stockholm, it might be a hotel with a really nice bar." Social swarming involves sharing your life with others in real time. It means pulsing to the rhythm of life with one's posse. It means a nonstop emotional connection to one's swarm. Swarming to Gazuza It's Saturday night and -- between the art show openings of twilight and the after-hours clubs near dawn -- the tribe that swarms touches down at Gazuza. Single, in their twenties and thirties, and wired, the members of this Washington swarm are briefly landing at this stylish Dupont Circle club as they hear that at this instant, the action is here. Bill Luza, 35, an architectural designer dressed all in white, is old enough to regale the crowd with tales of days so ancient that his first cell phone was the size of a French bread loaf. It came with its own shoulder bag. Yet he recalls how vindicated he felt when his fuel pump gave out between Alexandria and Woodbridge and he became one of the first people in the region to use this new gadget to rescue himself. Anna Boyarsky and Corinne Fralick, both 21, who are interning at the National Geographic and the Center for Policy Research on Women and Families, respectively, casually mention that there are no land lines into their group house any more. Why bother? To be young is to be cognitively welded to a mobile, right? "You always want it near you," somebody says. "You take the phone out of your purse and leave your purse behind. You take your phone even when you don't take your purse or your keys. It's like a little person." Luza raises his head from a call. "That one was from Argentina," he casually remarks. The swarmers laugh at themselves and the role swarming plays in their lives. "Cell dancing" comes up. This is the choreographed behavior in which two people who are vaguely in the same area but can't find each other get on the phone. "It's a locator service," says Boyarsky. "My younger brother was in town. We were going to meet up for lunch. 'I'm at M and something,' he said." She had him start walking down the street, calling out landmarks. Suddenly, she crowed, " 'I see you, I'm at the other corner.' " "Drunk dialing" brings blushes of recognition. Oh, yes. "Saying things that you shouldn't be saying because the cell phone's in your pocket and you're drunk," someone acknowledges, knowingly. "If you've got the phone in your hand, it's such a temptation." "Stupid things," says Angie Hacker, an intern with the U.S. Public Interest Research Group. "My best friend at home, she broke up with this guy she went out with for two years. She calls him and like, 'I know you're not over me. I know you feel that way. You're just going out with that other girl because she's around.' And then she hung up." "Ohhhhhh. I have a friend," says Fralick. "Every weekend, 1 o'clock in the morning, she calls me. She's totally trashed, and in California -- three-hour time difference -- to tell me how much she loves me, how much fun she's having, how much fun I'm having. Talking about everything. 'The boy I kissed earlier.' No point to the conversation. The cell phone companies must love it. People are just so drunk it's like, oh, I'll just call everybody I know." But more seriously, everyone acknowledges that being constantly in touch with the rest of the swarm is changing their sense of time, place, obligations and presence -- indeed, their lives. At Gazuza, two women say they found their current apartment and roommates through the swarm. At a Dave Matthews Band concert at MCI Center recently, some fans shared the music with distant friends by holding up their cell phones, the way an earlier generation might have raised glowing cigarette lighters. The very fabric of their time has softened. Remember arranging to meet at a specific time, like 8 p.m., at a specific location, like Connecticut and K? Forget it. The new hallmark of squishy lives involves vaguely agreeing to meet after work, and then working out the details on the fly. A time-softened meeting starts with a call that says, "I'm 15 minutes away." It's no longer unforgivable to be late, as long as you're in contact. "If you didn't have the cell phone, you'd make more of an effort to be on time," says Kaine Kornegay, 21, an intern in the Senate. "It's more socially acceptable to be late," he says, "because you've given notice that you would be." "With that, the problem is resolved because the information was transmitted, although not his physical body," chimes in Ky Nguyen, 30, a Laurel freelance writer. "There's a level of service agreement," he says. You expect people with cell phones to be available all the time. If they don't call back quickly, that's interpreted as a snub, and it causes anger. It would not be the same calling a land line because you might be out, so taking a day to get back could seem perfectly reasonable. "You get mad at each other when those expectations vary from actuality," says Nguyen. "Sometimes it's because of a failure to perform on the part of a person. But at others, it's just a failure to communicate the level of expectation that one person is expected to provide versus what another person expects to receive." The expectations for connectedness can be astonishingly high. In an earlier conversation, Shirleece Roberts, 21, a senior at Rutgers who likes to use text messaging, had said of her swarm, "Everything is based around the cell phone. Where we're going to meet. Where we're going. Whether we're lost. Where we're at. How to get there. Everything." Roberts is constantly pinging her posse. "When I get off work, going to the gym, I tell them -- meet me there. If I'm going to the store or to the movies or out to eat, I'll tell them. If we're at parties or clubs, and get split up, we'll send a message that says 'Meet me outside.' You talk to all your friends, all day, every day. Before you come to work, when you get off work, during work, before going to bed. See what we're doing. Going to sleep or going out." The last thing Roberts does at the end of the day is send a text message that says, "Good night." There can be a dark side to all this. Swarmers can have difficulty living in the present. They run the risk of never really connecting with the person physically in front of them. They're always wondering if there isn't somebody better they should be talking to at the next place. How's the party? Is it any good? This sucks. Should we move on? Is there any food? Are the girls prettier where you are? In an e-mail, Theresa Ward of McLean admits that she now waits until the last minute to make social commitments, responding to the best offer. "One example, embarrassing but true -- I was supposed to go to my friend's graduation party and when I found out about a dollar draft special, at the last minute I ditched my plans and met other people," she writes. Call it just-in-time partying. Swarmers run the risk of skittering like water bugs on the surface of life. By being quickly and constantly connected, they can avoid deep contact in a time-consuming and meaningful way. "It gives you more opportunities, but it takes you out of the now," says Michael Reed, 34, an entertainment producer. "If I've shown up and not found the love of my life, not had a love-at-first-sight experience," at one location, "then I have the opportunity to find out if there are other events going on where that might happen," says Bernardo Issel, a writer. "It distracts you from real life that you're engaged in," says Issel. "You're flitting from one place to another. You're more likely to pursue superficial engagements rather than deep pursuits. "It contributes to this certain MTV approach to life where you engage in something for a few minutes and then there's a commercial." The end result is that swarmers do indeed end up with "a more abrupt attention span," says Boyarsky. "But you have to have a grip on reality to feel it. Unless you know what is real -- what is a real friendship and relationship -- neither can have an effect on you. If you know what is real, then you know that the cell phone is not a real relationship. It's a connection, but not a person. It allows you to connect to other people, but it's not them, and not you. "It's a sign of commitment, when you turn off the phone," Boyarsky says. "When somebody turns off their cell phone for you, it's true love." Staff researcher Mary Lou White contributed to this report. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 21:39:34 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:39:34 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. > > How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? The context matches up with the definition in OED, although obviously not matching up with the specific subdefinition referring to the Soviet Union. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:03:43 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:03:43 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: <167.118c021c.2a799469@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:28 PM -0400 7/31/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/31/02 2:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU quotes: > >> Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by >> fighter pilots and other military types? >> >> Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco > >The people Laurence Horn are quoting are wrong here. > >"Roger" used by a pilot is not specific to the military. Civilian pilots use >the same terminology. The delusion that it is military is caused by there >being so many more movies about fighter pilots than about airliner pilots or >for that matter bomber pilots. > Hah. Caught the usually reliable Cecil Adams in a blooper (echoing his correspondent, but he's the one who gets paid to know better, and he usually does). Actually, the correspondent didn't SAY "Roger" for affirmatives was limited to "military types", so the statement in his relative clause may well be true. The move from "Roger" to "Roger Wilco" is CA's, and from what Jim says clearly misguided. I'm still curious about "Jolly Roger", though... L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:10:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:10:02 -0400 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <20020731193516.35758.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:35 PM -0700 7/31/02, Ed Keer wrote: >[Jim Landau wrote] > > That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very >> tasty. Cole slaw is >> crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole >> slaws use a sauce that is not >> all that different from Thousand Island dressing, >> with the result that >> Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere >> corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich >> with cabbage added for crunch. >> > >The Rachel is basically the sandwich that I've known >as an X special (corned beef special, roast beef >special, etc.) and in North Jersey found is called a >sloppy joe. And for me it's one of my favorite >sandwiches. The cole slaw actually goes well with the >other ingredients. > >Ed > I'd agree with Jim if my experience with cole slaw bore out his claim as to the composition of its dressing. I've been eating cole slaw off and on for half a century and I can never recall one of the main ingredients in Thousand Island dressing, viz. ketchup, being part of the dressing. Most versions have combinations of mayonnaise and vinegar, with (hopefully not too much) sugar to offset the vinegar, maybe mustard, and so on. If Thousand Island dressing intervened, cole slaw would be pink instead of white, and I wouldn't want it on my sandwiches either. Or are there relevant idiocrunches for cole slaw and/or Thousand Island dressing that I need to know about? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:26:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:26:26 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:39 PM -0400 7/31/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. >> >> How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? > >The context matches up with the definition in OED, although obviously not >matching up with the specific subdefinition referring to the Soviet Union. > >Fred Shapiro > That would, of course, still distinguish it from "The Cold War" used as a name [what Strawson called a description that has grown capital letters, like the Church of England], as it's been since...the Orwell quote? Actually, looking at the OED, I can't be sure. The context is 1945 'G. ORWELL' in Tribune 19 Oct. 8/1 A State which was..in a permanent state of 'cold war' with its neighbours. and there's no way to know without looking at that issue of the Tribune to know his referential intention. The very next cite, which also predates Walter Lippmann, is quite clear: 1946 Observer 10 Mar. 4/3 After the Moscow Conference last December,..Russia began to make a 'cold war' on Britain and the British Empire. I would still (following the trajectory model of W. A. Read) give a lot of credit to the 1947 Lippmann Times column, which was actually called "The Cold War" and generalized it to the Russian bear vs. the "free world", rather than just ("just, the man says--for shame!") the British Empire. On a related topic, it's interesting to find this at the OED entry for "iron curtain", 26 years before the famous Churchill statement: 1920 MRS. P. SNOWDEN Through Bolshevik Russia ii. 32 We were behind the 'iron curtain' at last! Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 31 22:25:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:25:37 -0700 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: <167.118c021c.2a799469@aol.com> Message-ID: > From the Airman's Information Manual, published by the FAA: > > ROGER---"I have received all of your last transmission." It > should not be used to answer a question requring a yes or no > answer. > > WILCO---"I have received your message, understand it, and > will comply with it." > > Hence "Roger Wilco" is aerial shorthand for two complete > independent clauses: "I have received your message AND I > will comply with it." Military usage is slightly different. "Roger Wilco" should never be used as a phrase. It is either "roger" or "wilco," never both. >From FM 24-9, "Radio Operator's Handbook," Dept. of the Army, May 1991: "ROGER: I have received your last transmission satisfactorily." "WILCO: I have received your signal, understand it, and will comply. (To be used only by the addressee. Since the meaning of ROGER is included in that of WILCO, the two prowords are never used together.)" The same goes with "over and out." It is either "over" or "out," never both. > "Roger" is the code word for the letter "R" in the old > "Able-Baker-Charlie" alphabet used in World War II (and > still occasionally heard today). The "Alfa-Bravo-Charlie" > ICAO alphabet which replaced the older one uses "Romeo" > for "R", but I've never heard of any pirates flying the > Jolly Romeo. Military types refer to it as the NATO alphabet, not ICAO. It's the same thing, just two different international organizations promulgating it. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:37:34 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I checked Recipesource.com for various cole slaw recipes and found 84, only one of which included ketchup/catsup (Cajun coleslaw--a Justin Wilson recipe which also has Worchestershire sauce, Louisiana hot sauce, onions and green bell peppers) and none that included chopped pickle or pickle relish. There are a number that omit the mayonnaise dressing in favor of various vinaigrettes. I'm not sure I'd care much for coleslaw on corned-beef, but it's delicious on a pulled-pork sandwich, at least in my opinion. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > I'd agree with Jim if my experience with cole slaw bore out his claim > as to the composition of its dressing. I've been eating cole slaw > off and on for half a century and I can never recall one of the main > ingredients in Thousand Island dressing, viz. ketchup, being part of > the dressing. Most versions have combinations of mayonnaise and > vinegar, with (hopefully not too much) sugar to offset the vinegar, > maybe mustard, and so on. If Thousand Island dressing intervened, > cole slaw would be pink instead of white, and I wouldn't want it on > my sandwiches either. Or are there relevant idiocrunches for cole > slaw and/or Thousand Island dressing that I need to know about? > > larry > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 31 23:00:33 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:00:33 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <7395986.1028150992658.JavaMail.wlogic@sane7> Message-ID: "Flash crowd". The term was coined AFAIK by the sf author Larry Niven in a short story, whose title I don't remember but other fen* certainly will. It's set in a near future (a few centuries or less) in which cheap, reliable teleportation has supplanted all other means of transportation. Example: a tv (or equivalent) newscaster says "I'm at Xxx Beach and the sunset is simply stunning!" People step into their home teleport booths and transport themselves to the public booths nearest the beach. In minutes there's a crowd of thousands or myriads. This is today's version. We now have flash crowds. * a plural of "fan" -- Mark A. Mandel From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Jul 31 23:11:17 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:11:17 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com Message-ID: > "Flash crowd". The term was coined AFAIK by the sf author Larry Niven in > a short story, whose title I don't remember The story is called "Flash Crowd." It's part of a collection called "The Flight of the Horse." Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jul 31 14:13:30 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:13:30 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Gerry and everyone else following this thread: Many people find some of what Barry is posting as IRRELEVANT. I for one would have a much harder time researching "food words" were it not for his USEFUL RESEARCH. Thank you very much for the research, Barry, and as for the other: perhaps the most important addition to the qwerty keyboard has been the "delete" key. Thank you to whom ever we are indebted for it. I don't follow his personal comments very often. Barry, you will be receiving credit for your valuable research in my next book! Please send flames or embers to my personal e-mail address, not the list. Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com gcohen at UMR.EDU,Net writes: > I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I >return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry >Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the >point of what Barry is all about. >Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l >in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been >presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into >polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material >contains. > >Gerald Cohen >University of Missouri-Rolla >research specialty: etymology > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 01:49:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:49:44 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 06/30/2002 4:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > if anyone publishes a book which employees must > learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status > by that means alone? I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then the words in that glossary have become jargon. A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very necessary, term for a home run. The only other example I can think of is "pimp". To the general public the word means "procurer" and I won't take a stand on whether it should be considered a slang word. However, to a prostitute, "pimp" has the specific meaning of "prostitute's boyfriend". > That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to > me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal > with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of > slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech, > or jargon, which is not slang. Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, and slang outside that group. See examples above. A jargon expression may have started out as a slang expression, but have since become jargon. One example: sometime after World War II (I think in the 1960's, but I haven't been able to track down the date) airplanes were required to be equipped with transponders if they wished to fly in positive control zones (in the US, any airspace over 18,000 feet). I am guessing that someone coined the term "squawk", as in "the transponder squawks a response" or "I just got back the sqawk from flight so-and-so." If my guess is correct, then this was slang. However, the FAA and ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization, a branch of the UN to which the FAA answers for international flights) both added the word "squawk" to the glossaries of what air traffic controllers and pilots say to each other. For example, to tell a pilot to turn off his transponder, the controller says "Stop Squawk", or to turn on the altitude reporting portion of the transponder, "Start Altitude Squawk." Hence "squawk", once slang, is now jargon. (To tell the pilot to report his altitude verbally instead of by transponder, the controller says "Say Altitude".) - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. An air traffic control story, perhaps apochryphal: Controller: SAY ALTITUDE Pilot: ALTITUDE Controller (annoyed): SAY ALTITUDE Pilot: ALTITUDE Controller (fed up): SAY I'M LEAVING INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES Pilot reports his altitude. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 02:00:02 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:00:02 EDT Subject: Telephone Tooth Message-ID: Interesting.... On the outtakes of last year's fantastic movie "Hedwig and the Angry Inch", Andrea Martin has exactly that device. It's actually a quick cover up for her leaving her cell-phone on during the take, but interesting nonetheless... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 1 01:57:46 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:57:46 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <42.297a9fb3.2a510f38@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > > I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his > employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then > the words in that glossary have become jargon. > > A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one > group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang > to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A > baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged > home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning > "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. > To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very > necessary, term for a home run. [...] > Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, > and slang outside that group. See examples above. I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise consider a hallmark of slang? For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly slangy for various reasons. Jesse Sheidlower OED From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 05:13:16 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:13:16 -0700 Subject: Next store Message-ID: Additional evidence: --Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:49:24 -0700 From: Robert Houston To: Rudolph C Troike Subject: Re: Next store Dear Rudy, Further corroboration: my father-in-law, a native Brooklynite who is visiting us at the moment, remembers "next store" being so common in his 1920s and 30s boyhood that his English teacher at James Madison High felt compelled to run a drill to get students to write "next door" instead. Best, Bob Robert Houston Dept. of English/Creative Writing Program The University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 520-621-1836 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 06:25:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:25:20 -0700 Subject: Route: English orthography vs phonetic/phonemic transcription In-Reply-To: <3D12001B0011E587@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU> Message-ID: I'm afraid, Tom, that somewhere along the line you got the abstract vs concrete upside down. Of course everything except an actual physical vocalization occurring at a particular point in time is an abstraction. No matter how precise I get, as a phonetician if I refer to [p] (an unaspirated voiceless bilabial stop), I am referring to a class of events which are all sufficiently similar that anyone with a modicum of training in any language in the world will recognize the _type_ of sound that is being referred to. This was part of the motivation for phonetic transcription before the day of mechanical or electronic recording, and still serves a purpose well, so we could easily talk about the sound that occurs in English words like , or transcribe it as [p], and note that it is essentially similar to the initial sound in Spanish 'bread' or Chinese 'north'. In other words, it provides a very convenient international way of transcribing sounds, and further provides the basis for teaching pronunciation in teaching English as a foreign language, or in teaching foreign languages to English speakers. A phonetic transcription will often show differences in sounds that are NOT cognitively evident to speakers of a language, the most often cited example being the difference between the initial sound of English and the second sound in . It doesn't take any deep study to show the huge phonetic difference between them, but simply putting your hand in front of your mouth when you say the words will demonstrate it. But English speakers are consciously unaware of this difference, although unconsciously they are quite aware, since they carefully control the muscles required to make the difference. This is why linguists came up with the concept of the "phoneme", which is a more abstract, purely psychologically significant distinction consciously recognized by native speakers of a particular language or variety of a language. The "same" phonetic type can belong to different phonemes in different languages. Thus Chinese speakers can readily hear the differences between the initial sound in and the second sound in , because these belong to different phonemes in Chinese. To understand why, or why Spanish speakers can't easily hear (or produce) the differences between and , an understanding of the concept of the phoneme is crucial. But we have to recognize that it is almost entirely English speakers, and primarily Americans, who are so trapped in an archaic spelling system that is growing increasingly out of touch with the actual pronunciation (and will ultimately become like Chinese characters in relation to pronunciation), and have been so ill-served by the educational system and the lexicographical tradition, that they are terrified of gaining the simplest knowledge about their very own speech, while people in other countries speaking other languages take this for granted. Thus we limp along trying to talk about our language in terms that are so handicapped and crude that they are almost comparable to people trying to talk about the composition of physical matter in terms of earth, air, fire, and water, or trying to discuss medical matters in terms of phlegm, etc. (The problems we have on this list in indicating phonetic qualities goes back to the provincialism of those who devised the ASCII code, and those who worked for the company that was ironically known as International Business Machines. It never occurred to them that we would ever have to communicate in any other language than English.) To argue that because we are saddled with such an archaic and preposterously complex spelling system, that like Chinese characters allows speakers of even almost mutually unintelligible varieties to communicate in the same written form, we should therefore limit our comprehension of our own pronunciation to this archaic orthography (SPE to the contrary notwithstanding, dInIs), is to condemn ourselves and our posterity to continued ignorance about our own or other languages. Without a modicum of understanding of the facts of pronunciation, we can't even understand the basis for the spelling system itself, to the extent that it is systematic, and we certainly can't understand how the spelling system came to be as it is today (or something so simple as why the names of the letters of the alphabet , , and differ from their pronunciation in all other European languages). In school today, and even as far back in the paleolithic as my own schooling, we studied -- and were required to study -- such complex abstract things as geometry, algebra, chemistry, and biology. No one has ever questioned these, so far as I know, but they are MUCH more abstract and complex than studying the phonology and grammar of our own language, which we have the advantage of already knowing. It is one of the great mysteries of our age as to why educators have kept, and continue to keep, us and our children and grandchildren in a state of ignorance (and worse, fear of knowledge) about our own language that would be comparable in science with still teaching that the earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun goes around the earth (of course there are a few who still believe this, but they do not dominate our educational system, fortunately). And why we continue to tolerate and condone the perpetuation of this situation is an even greater mystery. Rudy From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Jul 1 06:29:07 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:29:07 -0700 Subject: 'smokemouth' for WOTY Message-ID: With this being described as potentially the worst year for fires in American history, perhaps 'smokemouth' would be an appropriate candidate for WOTY. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 07:31:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 03:31:53 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: Greetings from Valdez, Alaska...The bus driver pointed out a bar: "That's where Joseph Hazelwood had his last drink in Alaska, before he left for New York." On my Alaska ferry was William H. Landram (wlandram at fhcrc.org) of Seattle. He said that he previously taught English at the Univ. Of Wisconsin-Madison and worked on DARE in the 1960s. DARE sometimes profiles its original workers; this is for their information. VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have VFRs visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super deals on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you need to show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great time." VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent is VFR on the databases? POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a "polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay Pride Week, you know. YUKON LIQUOR--This is the name of a store in Seward. And I thought the University of Connecticut's "Yes, U. Conn.!" was bad. Yukon Liquor? I mean, is she attractive or what? JUST FOR THE HALIBUT--Halibut and salmon are the big dinner choices here. Someone at my table said he'd order it "just for the halibut." Next, he'll probably tell me why they call it a "honeydew" melon. JO JOs--We stocked up at an Eagle Supermarket (owned by Safeway). It sold "savory jo jo wedges" and "Buffalo jo jo potatoes," both at $2.39 per lb. I have to do more work on "Jo Jo." From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 1 08:36:09 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:36:09 +0100 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut In-Reply-To: <01030348.76D8F2C9.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in > the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have > VFRs visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super > deals on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you > need to show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great > time." VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent > is VFR on the databases? Wearing my (rather battered and out of fashion) tourism consultant's hat for a moment, I can tell you that VFR is a standard term in the tourism business, and has been for at least 20 years to my knowledge. It is one of the standard top-level classifications of travellers, along with "holiday" and "business". The term appeared in "Among the New Words" in Winter 1998, with a citation from 1996. My first brush with it was while developing a museum in the late 1970s; it was well established even then, I should think. It doesn't appear in any dictionary I have here, most probably because it is (pace current discussions) a jargon term of the tourism business, not that often seen elsewhere. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 11:59:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 07:59:19 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <42.297a9fb3.2a510f38@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group has slang? And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the major source of the difficulty. For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel that technical language is "unnecessary:). dInIs >In a message dated 06/30/2002 4:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> if anyone publishes a book which employees must >> learn words or terms from have those items "lost" their slang status >> by that means alone? > >I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his >employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then >the words in that glossary have become jargon. > >A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one >group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang >to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A >baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged >home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning >"umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. >To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very >necessary, term for a home run. > >The only other example I can think of is "pimp". To the general public the >word means "procurer" and I won't take a stand on whether it should be >considered a slang word. However, to a prostitute, "pimp" has the specific >meaning of "prostitute's boyfriend". > >> That "homer" (home-team favoring unmpire) is not slang is very odd to >> me. It is not "necessary" in any sense except that those who deal >> with baseball must know it. I think there is a confusion here of >> slang which is slang but is jargon at the same time technical speech, >> or jargon, which is not slang. > >Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, >and slang outside that group. See examples above. > >A jargon expression may have started out as a slang expression, but have >since become jargon. One example: sometime after World War II (I think in >the 1960's, but I haven't been able to track down the date) airplanes were >required to be equipped with transponders if they wished to fly in positive >control zones (in the US, any airspace over 18,000 feet). I am guessing that >someone coined the term "squawk", as in "the transponder squawks a response" >or "I just got back the sqawk from flight so-and-so." If my guess is >correct, then this was slang. However, the FAA and ICAO (International Civil >Aviation Organization, a branch of the UN to which the FAA answers for >international flights) both added the word "squawk" to the glossaries of what >air traffic controllers and pilots say to each other. For example, to tell a >pilot to turn off his transponder, the controller says "Stop Squawk", or to >turn on the altitude reporting portion of the transponder, "Start Altitude >Squawk." Hence "squawk", once slang, is now jargon. (To tell the pilot to >report his altitude verbally instead of by transponder, the controller says >"Say Altitude".) > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > >P.S. An air traffic control story, perhaps apochryphal: > >Controller: SAY ALTITUDE >Pilot: ALTITUDE >Controller (annoyed): SAY ALTITUDE >Pilot: ALTITUDE >Controller (fed up): SAY I'M LEAVING INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES >Pilot reports his altitude. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 12:00:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:00:19 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <20020701015746.GA22933@panix.com> Message-ID: >The lexicographer and the sociolinguist agree. dInIs >On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: >> >> I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his >> employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then >> the words in that glossary have become jargon. >> >> A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one >> group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang >> to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A >> baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged >> home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning >> "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. >> To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very >> necessary, term for a home run. >[...] >> Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, >> and slang outside that group. See examples above. > >I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both >jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular >group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the >rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise >consider a hallmark of slang? > >For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical >personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. >This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning >among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's >no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations >to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly >slangy for various reasons. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 12:07:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:07:54 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut In-Reply-To: <01030348.76D8F2C9.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: In this, of course, the usually open-minded Barry reveals the depths of his New Yorkness in wanting people who speak American English to distinguish so many of the front vowels before /r/; I'm afraid the vast majority of us lost souls would not distinguish "ferry" and "fairy." dInIs > Greetings from Valdez, Alaska...The bus driver pointed out a bar: >"That's where Joseph Hazelwood had his last drink in Alaska, before >he left for New York." > On my Alaska ferry was William H. Landram (wlandram at fhcrc.org) of >Seattle. He said that he previously taught English at the Univ. Of >Wisconsin-Madison and worked on DARE in the 1960s. DARE sometimes >profiles its original workers; this is for their information. > >VFRs--From an ad by the Anchorage Convention & Visitors Bureau in >the TURNAGAIN TIMES, 6 June 2002, pg. 23, col. 2: "Do you have VFRs >visiting this year? ... Check out www.anchorage.net for super deals >on activites, attractions, dining and more--everything you need to >show your visiting friends and relatives (VFR's) a great time." >VFRs Visiting? Is that like a PIN number? How frequent is VFR on >the databases? > >POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He >said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a >"polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay >Pride Week, you know. > >YUKON LIQUOR--This is the name of a store in Seward. And I thought >the University of Connecticut's "Yes, U. Conn.!" was bad. Yukon >Liquor? I mean, is she attractive or what? > >JUST FOR THE HALIBUT--Halibut and salmon are the big dinner choices >here. Someone at my table said he'd order it "just for the >halibut." Next, he'll probably tell me why they call it a >"honeydew" melon. > >JO JOs--We stocked up at an Eagle Supermarket (owned by Safeway). >It sold "savory jo jo wedges" and "Buffalo jo jo potatoes," both at >$2.39 per lb. I have to do more work on "Jo Jo." -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Jul 1 13:12:00 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:12:00 -0400 Subject: ..recently heard, pranked with room.. Message-ID: Not sure if the following is jargon, but in a Whole Foods store in St. Paul, MN, at the juice bar, a coffee was ordered "with room". When I asked about the meaning of 'with room', I was told that it meant to leave room for the addition of cream or sugar or other additive, as opposed to merely filling the container with coffee. ===================== Another recently heard word, used at the PSU Hershey Medical Center, by a secretary, is pranked, as in "we were just pranked". She had answered the telephone, and the caller was playing a joke, by pretending to be a potential patient. Yes, apparently, pranked is not all that new, with Google returning over 1,900 hits, but it was new to these aged ears. And, the single word is a little more efficient than using the statement "someone just tried to play a prank". The secretary realized that it was a prank call. I'm not sure if the word is used for both the situation where a prank is attempted, i.e., the respondent realizes that someone is trying to fool the respondent, as well as the situation where the prank succeeds, i.e., the respondent is fooled. George Cole Shippensburg University From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 13:42:14 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:42:14 -0500 Subject: Abstract / Concrete Message-ID: on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: > > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from > English > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" > > Good question. Answer: A literate person is > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. (snip) > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > please say PYE- not PAY-). PYE- as in Pierre? Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. DMLance From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 14:28:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:28:51 -0400 Subject: ..recently heard, pranked with room.. In-Reply-To: <3D205520.E10774A4@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: GSCole said: >Not sure if the following is jargon, but in a Whole Foods store in St. >Paul, MN, at the juice bar, a coffee was ordered "with room". When I >asked about the meaning of 'with room', I was told that it meant to >leave room for the addition of cream or sugar or other additive, as >opposed to merely filling the container with coffee. I've been ordering coffee in New Haven "without room" for almost 15 years. Alice From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 14:42:00 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:42:00 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 8:10:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group > has slang? Yes, a special interest group may have slang terms that are not part of their jargon, that is, terms that are not "necessary" (that is, can be easily avoided by using either jargon or standard terms). Baseball example: "gear" is jargon, because the alternative is to specify "face mask, chest protector, and shin guards" (7 words, 8 if "cup" is included). However, "toos of ignorance", a synonym for "gear", is slang. Air traffic control example: rules require certain separations between aircraft. There are some jargon terms (more than one, because the rules levy multiple requirements.) However, controllers have additional terms for loss of separation that are slang because they would probably not get into written reports. One that I heard in a conversation between controllers was "deal". (I suspect, but do not know, that the implication was that two controllers might have made a "deal" to simplify things by ignoring the regulations.) Another one I once heard was "two jets got a close look at each other". > And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for > police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at > least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." No. For the police officers, it was jargon in that they were ordered to learn it. However, the linguistic interest lies in whether a particular term is slang or jargon to a drug user, not to the police who are outside observers. Examples: I think you will agree that "horse" for "heroin" is slang. However, "nickel" is jargon because it saves the speaker the trouble of saying "a five dollar bag of [the drug in question]." > I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint > what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories > (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the > major source of the difficulty. I do not have any definition of slang worth stating here. To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific technical meaning that one could write books about; however, this usage is so well known to the general public that arguably it is standard English. Other meanings or connotations of "to jazz up" may well meet someone's definition of slang. Scientific American once discussed whether Brahms, as a conductor, had a "jazzy style" In this case it is borderline whether "jazzy" is slang or jargon (or even standard English). "Jazzy" was used to mean "somewhat irregular beat, definitely not like a metronome". Was the writer using a jargon term to describe a conductor's beat, or a slang term that could have been replaced by "syncopated"? I could argue either way. > For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the > same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well > as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). I agree. Hopefully that is what I was doing in my previous paragraph. > One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to > indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but > sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel > that technical language is "unnecessary:). Agreed. I am a purist on the word "jargon", but most people are not( my teenage daughter says that "jargon" means "slang that has been cleaned up.). Example: Google gives 220 hits on the phrase "barbarous jargon". Example: about a century ago, "Jargon" was used as a derogatory term for "Yiddish". - Jim Landau - Jim Landau From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Jul 1 15:04:19 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:04:19 -0400 Subject: Next store Message-ID: Count me (b. Brooklyn 1940) as a "next store" person as well. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 15:36:06 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:36:06 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I completely reject the "necessary" argument, which seems to suggest that "economy" is the defining characteristic of slang. Too many counterexamples (slang phrases longer than the "standard") to mention. dInIs >In a message dated 7/1/02 8:10:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > >> I'm still at a loss. Does this mean that no special interest group >> has slang? > >Yes, a special interest group may have slang terms that are not part of their >jargon, that is, terms that are not "necessary" (that is, can be easily >avoided by using either jargon or standard terms). Baseball example: "gear" >is jargon, because the alternative is to specify "face mask, chest protector, >and shin guards" (7 words, 8 if "cup" is included). However, "toos of >ignorance", a synonym for "gear", is slang. Air traffic control example: >rules require certain separations between aircraft. There are some jargon >terms (more than one, because the rules levy multiple requirements.) >However, controllers have additional terms for loss of separation that are >slang because they would probably not get into written reports. One that I >heard in a conversation between controllers was "deal". (I suspect, but do >not know, that the implication was that two controllers might have made a >"deal" to simplify things by ignoring the regulations.) Another one I once >heard was "two jets got a close look at each other". > > >> And, by your definition, drug use slang written down for >> police to memorize would have ceased to be slang on the spot (at >> least for those cops), although they set out to learn "slang." > >No. For the police officers, it was jargon in that they were ordered to >learn it. However, the linguistic interest lies in whether a particular term >is slang or jargon to a drug user, not to the police who are outside >observers. Examples: I think you will agree that "horse" for "heroin" is >slang. However, "nickel" is jargon because it saves the speaker the trouble >of saying "a five dollar bag of [the drug in question]." > >> I suspect the difficulty really lies in our inability to pinpoint >> what we mean by slang, and I suspect a set of prototypical categories >> (ephemerality, raciness, etc...). no one of which is defining is the >> major source of the difficulty. > >I do not have any definition of slang worth stating here. > >To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and standard at the same >time, depending on use and meaning. Example: "jazz", whose origins have been >disucssed at length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" it is >standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual intercourse" it is slang. > "To jazz up (a piece of music)" is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a >specific technical meaning that one could write books about; however, this >usage is so well known to the general public that arguably it is standard >English. Other meanings or connotations of "to jazz up" may well meet >someone's definition of slang. Scientific American once discussed whether >Brahms, as a conductor, had a "jazzy style" In this case it is borderline >whether "jazzy" is slang or jargon (or even standard English). "Jazzy" was >used to mean "somewhat irregular beat, definitely not like a metronome". Was >the writer using a jargon term to describe a conductor's beat, or a slang >term that could have been replaced by "syncopated"? I could argue either way. > >> For me, therefore, every item of technical language must undergo the >> same investigation to determine whether it is slang or not (as well >> as, of course, a reinvestigation for in-group and out-group users). > >I agree. Hopefully that is what I was doing in my previous paragraph. > >> One suspicion I have is that we often use the word "jargon" to >> indicate the convergence of technical vocabulary and slang (but >> sertainly not exclusively; we obviously also use jargon when we feel >> that technical language is "unnecessary:). > >Agreed. I am a purist on the word "jargon", but most people are not( my >teenage daughter says that "jargon" means "slang that has been cleaned up.). >Example: Google gives 220 hits on the phrase "barbarous jargon". Example: >about a century ago, "Jargon" was used as a derogatory term for "Yiddish". > > - Jim Landau > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 15:34:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:34:37 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and > standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. > Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at > length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" > it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual > intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" > is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific > technical meaning that one could write books about; > however, this usage is so well known to the general public > that arguably it is standard English. "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. "Jargon" on the other hand is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide room for overlap. But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and jargon/slang. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language; they can't also be standard. So if "jazz it up" is a standard English phrase (I would agree that it is), then in becoming standard it has ceased to be jargon or slang. You might designate it as "from musical jargon," but that is distinctly in the past. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 15:56:40 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:56:40 -0500 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <001801c22114$cfbd56f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: on 7/1/02 10:34 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: >> To confuse the issue, a word can be slang, jargon, and >> standard at the same time, depending on use and meaning. >> Example: "jazz", whose origins have been disucssed at >> length on this list. With the meaning "a type of music" >> it is standard English. With the meaning "to have sexual >> intercourse" it is slang. "To jazz up (a piece of music)" >> is a jargon term to musicians, as it has a specific >> technical meaning that one could write books about; >> however, this usage is so well known to the general public >> that arguably it is standard English. > > "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a > single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, > but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its > informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, > those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. DMLance > "Jargon" on the other hand > is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either > formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The > definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide > room for overlap. > > But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and > jargon/slang. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language; > they can't also be standard. So if "jazz it up" is a standard English phrase > (I would agree that it is), then in becoming standard it has ceased to be > jargon or slang. You might designate it as "from musical jargon," but that > is distinctly in the past. > From hakala at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 1 16:10:12 2002 From: hakala at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (T. Hakala) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:10:12 -0700 Subject: Route: English orthography vs phonetic/phonemic transcription In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Rudolph C Troike wrote: > In school today, and even as far back in the paleolithic as my own > schooling, we studied -- and were required to study -- such complex > abstract things as geometry, algebra, chemistry, and biology. No one has > ever questioned these, so far as I know, but they are MUCH more abstract > and complex than studying the phonology and grammar of our own language, > which we have the advantage of already knowing. It is one of the great > mysteries of our age as to why educators have kept, and continue to keep, > us and our children and grandchildren in a state of ignorance (and worse, > fear of knowledge) about our own language that would be comparable in > science with still teaching that the earth is the center of the universe, > and that the sun goes around the earth (of course there are a few who > still believe this, but they do not dominate our educational system, > fortunately). And why we continue to tolerate and condone the perpetuation > of this situation is an even greater mystery. > > Rudy Indeed! Here at the University of Washington, English Language Study is not a required course -- not even for English majors. Additionally, a course entitled History of the English Language was most recently offered as a "special topics" course. Taryn Hakala From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:27:56 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:27:56 EDT Subject: the definition of slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 11:59:57 AM, lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU writes: << Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. >> The problem here for me is that SLANG (and to a lesser extent maybe JARGON) is not a discrete, cripsly defined linguistic concept like LABIAL or RELATIVE CLAUSE but rather a sort of family of concepts governed by several different criteria. Isn't that basically what Bethany Dumas and J. Lighter said in their landmark essay a number of years ago on the definition of slang? From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Jul 1 16:29:36 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:29:36 +0100 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a > particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These > terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term like > 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. > > DMLance > Drug Slang/ Drug Jargon If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ drug terminology could be labelled jargon. And as such should be disqualified from the slang lexica. But the reality is that certain terms - 'cool' (used of course in many areas other than drugs), 'pot' and 'grass' are good examples - have long since crossed over into mainstream congnisance and indeed use. There are many others, 'crack' or 'ecstasy' (MDMA) being obvious contenders. So I would place them among slang. There is also, surely, an argument to suggest that simply through the numbers of speakers - the drug-using 'community' must run into its tens of millions in English-speaking countries alone - that the sheer volume of use of these words takes them out of the relatively limited world of jargon and into the wider one of slang. One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. Thus I would define 'smack' for heroin as slang, but 'to shoot gravy': for a narcotics addict to reinject the blood that has been drawn into the syringe and there mixed with the heroin solution, as jargon. Though even here the line is permeable: 'joint', a marijuana or hashish cigarette is well known and widely used enough to be slang, even though it falls into the area of 'equipment'. As I say, it is but a suggestion - and the line is in the end probably impossible to draw. Jonathon Green From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:44:23 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:44:23 EDT Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:32:37 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << POWER BAR/POWAH BAH--Someone from Massachusetts is on my tour. He said he wasn't hungry; he just had a "powah bah." Or maybe he ate a "polar bear"...We spent this entire afternoon on the "fairy." Gay Pride Week, you know. >> Regardless of how Barry (or is it Berry?) pronounces the words FAIRY and FERRY, this little slur is offensive (not to mention pointlessly puerile). From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Jul 1 16:49:32 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:49:32 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: Larry Horn notes of "clever" "It's actually a very interesting word in terms of subtle semantic shifts. I'm aware of (some of) the differences between contemporary British and U.S. applications of "clever". . . ." Here's another: Charles Roach brought up to the police office charged with having last Thursday evening stolen his honour the Mayor's coat, out of his (the Mayor's) house. On examination, denied the charge; says, he don't know how the coat came to be in the street -- never owned such a coat in his life. When were you last discharged from prison? I came out of the penitentiary the 6th of last July; had been there six months. What crime were you then committed for? You (to the magistrate) committed me, but whether for stealing or being drunk I can't tell. How many days have you been sober since last discharged? None at all. Where did you get money to keep so constantly drunk? Worked for it; just did as much work as kept me cleverly drunk. New-York Evening Post, August 12, 1820, p. 2, col. 5 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 16:45:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:45:37 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a > particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those > groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." > What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's > so hard to define 'slang'. Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and slang usage. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 16:55:46 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:55:46 EDT Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at least there used to be, in American gay lingo. Is that still current? Has it spread outside gay talk? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 17:21:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:21:58 -0400 Subject: VFRs; Yukon Liquor; Just for the Halibut Message-ID: I was on a ferry all day from Seward to Valdez. I heard "fairy" for "ferry" and wrote a line reporting that. I did not mean to be offensive, and apologize if I offended anyone. The free newspaper THE PRESS has a Gay Pride Week story titled "Queer on the Last Frontier." I didn't see any slang or phrases worth reporting, or I would have reported them. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 17:33:29 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:33:29 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000c01c2211c$802ed930$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: >I continue to be puzzled why "jargon" and "slang" can't happily co-exist. dInIs > > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those groups. These >> terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." What about a term >like >> 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's so hard to define 'slang'. >> >> DMLance >> > >Drug Slang/ Drug Jargon > >If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the >obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion >so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ >drug terminology could be labelled jargon. And as such should be >disqualified from the slang lexica. But the reality is that certain terms - >'cool' (used of course in many areas other than drugs), 'pot' and 'grass' >are good examples - have long since crossed over into mainstream congnisance >and indeed use. There are many others, 'crack' or 'ecstasy' (MDMA) being >obvious contenders. So I would place them among slang. There is also, >surely, an argument to suggest that simply through the numbers of speakers - >the drug-using 'community' must run into its tens of millions in >English-speaking countries alone - that the sheer volume of use of these >words takes them out of the relatively limited world of jargon and into the >wider one of slang. One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be >slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. Thus I >would define 'smack' for heroin as slang, but 'to shoot gravy': for a >narcotics addict to reinject the blood that has been drawn into the syringe >and there mixed with the heroin solution, as jargon. Though even here the >line is permeable: 'joint', a marijuana or hashish cigarette is well known >and widely used enough to be slang, even though it falls into the area of >'equipment'. As I say, it is but a suggestion - and the line is in the end >probably impossible to draw. > >Jonathon Green -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 17:36:22 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:36:22 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <005b01c2211e$bb3abec0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). dInIs > > Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those >> groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." >> What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's >> so hard to define 'slang'. > >Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely >defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more >precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War >reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which >encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college >students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. > >I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's >informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English >nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. > >Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and >slang usage. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Jul 1 18:13:03 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:13:03 -0400 Subject: Abstract / Concrete Message-ID: Answer #3: Sorry if I overstated anything, but that was on an empty stomach. My logic is vintage 1955, but let me try, so help me professors of logic: You are saying S = +P ("+" based on your use of "more" and "better"). In effect, you are saying or implying, perhaps as a corollary, that "abstract" as a concept admits of degree (cf. levels of abstraction). Thus some concepts are more abstract than others. I would like to say that orthographic spellings are less abstract than IPA. There's, of course, a perceptual element to this, IDIOsyncratic as we all are. But, logic apart, I agree with what you mean, namely, "the orthographic representations [I] prefer [are] more accessible to better-than-moderatly literate speakers of English," vague as this statement is. To my own idiosyncratic thinking, identical twins are less concrete (more abstract) than fraternal twins (more concrete, less abstract). Answer #2: Not PYE- as in Pierre, but -AI- as in "aisle," etc. You are citing an exception in support of your argument, but exceptions (as in Conan Doyle and TMP's "native speaker" book) don't prove anything. Answer #1: Speakers of Spanish, etc. are supposed to be at the (vaguely) Grade 6 level of English proficiency. Non-English speakers starting from zero would have to use some aural-oral method of language acquisition first before being able to use a dictionary meant for the English-speaking masses. I enjoyed Rudy's lecture. I too was trained as an academic, but since 1960, I have lived and worked in a commercial world, though with little profit motive. I think our differences are based on differences of attitude and (sub-conscious?) vested interests. Sorry if I have overstated it. TOM PAIKEDAY, lexicographer, www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (alpha version) Donald M Lance wrote: > > on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: > > > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: > > > > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from > > English > > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" > > > > Good question. Answer: A literate person is > > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. > > Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. TMP: Please see answers above, #1 > > (snip) > > > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > > please say PYE- not PAY-). > > PYE- as in Pierre? TMP: Answer #2 > > Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic > representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately > literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete > only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. TMP: Ans. #3 > > DMLance From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Jul 1 18:20:41 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:20:41 -0400 Subject: PFD, Pioneer homes; Duckfarts (cocktail) Message-ID: Both _PFD_ and _personal flotation device_ are entered in The Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English (c. 1990) with e.q.'s of 1972. I believe that was the year the Coast Guard invented the term. Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > Greetings from Seward. I go to Valdez in about five minutes. > >PFD--Personal Flotation Device. (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.) > >PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska. > >MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter >cups. > >DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender. He comes from Albany, NY. >He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there. He says it's like a >B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different. > Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha. >Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > Greetings from Seward. I go to Valdez in about five minutes. > >PFD--Personal Flotation Device. (Everything's a "Personal" acronym--ed.) > >PIONEER HOMES--Old age homes in Alaska. > >MOOSE TRACKS--The ice cream here is vanilla, fudge, and peanut butter >cups. > >DUCKFART--My bus driver is also a bartender. He comes from Albany, NY. >He says he serves Duckfarts here, but not there. He says it's like a >B-52, with one ingredient (Grand Marnier) different. > Crown Royal, Baileys, Kaluha. > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 18:58:29 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:58:29 -0400 Subject: Abstract / Concrete In-Reply-To: <3D209BAF.5F6C5749@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: If "more concrete" means "more accessible to larger numbers of people," then I we have certainly left the ordinary (and even specialized) senses of the words rather far behind, although I note some common use for "abstract" to mean "complex," or even "arcane." If Tom meant this, I wish he had said so. I take non strong position (as Rudy) did on the efficacy of an IPA-like as opposed to standard orthographic representation for dictionaries. I am sympathetic to the fact that since we do not have this in our tradition, it makes it very difficult to introduce. dInIs PS: Yes, Tom, your reference to twins is idiosyncratic indeed. >Answer #3: Sorry if I overstated anything, but that was on an empty >stomach. > >My logic is vintage 1955, but let me try, so help me professors of >logic: > >You are saying S = +P ("+" based on your use of "more" and "better"). In >effect, you are saying or implying, perhaps as a corollary, that >"abstract" as a concept admits of degree (cf. levels of abstraction). >Thus some concepts are more abstract than others. > >I would like to say that orthographic spellings are less abstract than >IPA. There's, of course, a perceptual element to this, IDIOsyncratic as >we all are. But, logic apart, I agree with what you mean, namely, "the >orthographic representations [I] prefer [are] more accessible to >better-than-moderatly literate speakers of English," vague as this >statement is. To my own idiosyncratic thinking, identical twins are less >concrete (more abstract) than fraternal twins (more concrete, less >abstract). > >Answer #2: Not PYE- as in Pierre, but -AI- as in "aisle," etc. You are >citing an >exception in support of your argument, but exceptions (as in Conan Doyle >and TMP's "native speaker" book) don't prove anything. > >Answer #1: Speakers of Spanish, etc. are supposed to be at the (vaguely) >Grade 6 >level of English proficiency. Non-English speakers starting from zero >would have to use some aural-oral method of language acquisition first >before being able to use a dictionary meant for the English-speaking >masses. > >I enjoyed Rudy's lecture. I too was trained as an academic, but since >1960, I have lived and worked in a commercial world, though with little >profit motive. I think our differences are based on differences of >attitude and (sub-conscious?) vested interests. Sorry if I have >overstated it. > >TOM PAIKEDAY, >lexicographer, >www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (alpha version) > > >Donald M Lance wrote: >> >> on 6/30/02 4:12 PM, Thomas Paikeday at t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA wrote: >> >> > To answer a couple of questions raised by Mark and Dennis: >> > >> > Mark: "How is this set of rules, abstracted and *regularized* from >> > English >> > orthography, not also a "key" to be learned?" >> > >> > Good question. Answer: A literate person is >> > supposed to have already learned the common English spellings. >> >> Not true for speakers of Spanish, Russian, Chinese pinyin, etc. >>TMP: Please see answers above, #1 >> >> (snip) >> >> > TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable >> > of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares >> > please say PYE- not PAY-). >> >> PYE- as in Pierre? TMP: Answer #2 >> >> Sorry, Tom. I don't buy your rebuttal as stated. The orthographic >> representations you prefer may be more accessible to better-than-moderately >> literate speakers of English, but they're still abstract. They're concrete >> only as marks on paper. You're overstating your case. TMP: Ans. #3 >> >> DMLance -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:20:20 2002 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Johnson, Ellen) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: speaking of virus msg Message-ID: this came to me today. note the assessment of the sender that we on this list simply labeled "non-native speaker". Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Teachyou99 at aol.com [mailto:Teachyou99 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:50 PM To: Teachyou99 at aol.com Subject: FYI THIS IS THE WAY THIS EMAIL CAME TO ME. IT IS INFECTED WITH A VIRUS. YOU CAN SEE BY THE ILLITERACY OF THE WRITERS MESSAGE, THE DEMENTED PERSON WITH WHOM WE'RE DEALING IS EXEMPLIFIED BY THE MESSAGE. IF YOU RECEIVE IT, IMMEDIATELY DELETE IT! FROM: SUBJECT: ENDOFTRANSACTION A FUNNY WEBSITE Subj: A funny website Date: 6/28/2002 8:35:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: endoftransaction at ebay.com (endoftransaction) To: Teachyou99 at aol.com File: Hr.zip (46445 bytes) DL Time (57600 bps): < 1 minute Hello,This is a funny website I wish you would like it. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:27:36 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:27:36 -0500 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <005b01c2211e$bb3abec0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: >> Are 'cool' 'pot' 'grass' slang? Though they may be "associated with a >> particular social grouping," they aren't used only by those >> groups. These terms are widely used but aren't exactly "standard." >> What about a term like 'threads' for clothing? Examples of why it's >> so hard to define 'slang'. > > Which is precisely why I used the terms "associated with" and "vaguely > defined group" regarding slang. The groups that use jargon are more > precisely defined and organized (e.g., medical profession, police, Civil War > reenactors, model railroaders), as opposed to say "drug culture" which > encompasses crackhouse junkies, vice cops, Colombian drug lords, college > students, and yuppie Wall Street stockbrokers. > > I would argue that "cool" has moved into standard American English. It's > informal, but ubiquitous. Similarly, I would put "pot" into standard English > nowadays. "Grass" is more problematic; I would still call that one slang. > > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang > terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for > decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or > categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and > slang usage. > I agree. This is how I would have answered my own questions. DMLance From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jul 1 19:33:47 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:33:47 -0400 Subject: the definition of slang In-Reply-To: <66.23430d35.2a51dd0c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >The problem here for me is that SLANG (and to a lesser extent maybe JARGON) >is not a discrete, cripsly defined linguistic concept like LABIAL or RELATIVE >CLAUSE but rather a sort of family of concepts governed by several different >criteria. > >Isn't that basically what Bethany Dumas and J. Lighter said in their landmark >essay a number of years ago on the definition of slang? Indeed: Dumas, Bethany K., and Jonathan Lighter. 1978. "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?" American Speech 53.1:1?5, 17. [revised version of a paper read at the American Dialect Society, San Francisco, December 1975] Bethany From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 19:40:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:40:26 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 12:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > If one defines jargon (the occupational/group variety rather than the > obfuscational sort, which I don't think has been brought into the discussion > so far) as a language used by a specific 'occupational' group, then _all_ > drug terminology could be labelled jargon. Your definition is incorrect. The language used by a specific "occupational" group is its "lingo", or if a beyond-the-law group, its "argot" or "cant". All drug terminology could, in fact, should be labelled "argot." Within the drug argot there are jargon terms, there are slang terms, and there are terms on which we could split hares until Australia runs out of rabbits. Also, one should note that there are multiple illegal drug groups. A person who solely uses marijuana, for instance, is unlikely to need argot terms specific to narcotics. ****************************************************************************** ******** In a message dated 7/1/02 11:40:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > "Slang" and "jargon" are not mutually exclusive categories, even for a > single group. Both jargon and slang are categories of nonstandard language, > but there the similarity in categorization ends. Slang is categorized by its > informality and while it is associated with a particular social grouping, > those groupings are often rather vaguely defined. "Jargon" on the other hand > is language specific to a profession or discipline. Jargon can be either > formal (ventricular tachycardia) or informal/slang (bumsickle). The > definitions do not use the same criteria for categorization and have wide > room for overlap. Bravo! I agree. > But, a single sense of a word cannot be simultaneously standard and > jargon/slang. I made no such claim. I stated that DIFFERENT senses of the word "jazz" had to be sorted differently. to jazz = to have sex ---- slang to jazz up (a piece of music) --- musicians' jargon, but widely enough used, and widely enough recognizable, to be considered standard to jazz (up) = to enliven or accelerate (MWCD10 definitions 1a and 1b) ---originally slang, but like the previous, widely enough used to be considered standard By the way, M-W says that senses 1a and 1b antedate the musician's technical sense, which is the opposite of what I thought. ****************************************************************************** **** In a message dated 7/1/02 12:31:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > One suggestion: perhaps the names of drugs tend to be > slang; the equipment and technique of administration remains jargon. No. Your suggestion is highly artificial and not useful. If "smack" and "horse" were used to distinguish between different grades of heroin, they would obviously be jargon terms. As far as I know, they don't, therefore they are argot but not jargon by my definition. On the other hand, if you were to record half a dozen terms for an IV needle, and these terms were not used to distinguish needles by bore, capacity, etc., then they would be slang. ****************************************************************************** *********** I still don't have a definition for slang, but I would like to point out one frequent element: slang terms are sometimes, though definitely NOT always, poetic. That is, they sometimes employ elements of poetry, such as imagery, hyperbole, or understatement. To stick with narcotics, uh, argot: "horse" ---- alliterative with "heroin" "smack" --- possibly (I'm guessing) hyperbole, referring to the fast onset of a high "mainline" ---- hyperbolic imagery, a blood vessel being awarded the metaphor of a railroad track - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 19:53:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:53:27 EDT Subject: "ebay" as an adverb Message-ID: >From an e-mail from a local charitable organization: "We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser." - Jim Landau From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 19:49:09 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:49:09 -0700 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and > "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world > no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). Guilty as charged regarding flying by the seat of my pants, but I would substitute "personal experience" for "personal feelings." It is a judgment based on how I've encountered the use of the terms, not on what I would like them to be. But you've challenged me to justify this judgment... Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, while "grass marijuana" gets you only some 38,900. This is probably a pretty good indicator of the relative popularity of the two terms. Searching in NY Times over the last week (24 Jun-1 Jul), turns up 14 articles containing the word "marijuana." There are two articles containing the word "pot" in the drug sense, one a letter to the editor and the other an excerpt from a novel. There are no uses of "grass" in the drug sense for the same period (lots of articles about Wimbledon though). A similar search in the Washington Post also turns up 14 articles with "marijuana." None for "pot" or "grass." AP has some 20 articles with "marijuana" (that number is rough because AP posts articles to the wire multiple times and I may have miscounted). It has 2 with "pot;" one uses it in a headline, the other in a direct quote. CNN.com has six articles with "marijuana" for the same period. It uses the drug sense of "pot" in two articles; CNN doesn't use quotation marks or otherwise indicate that it's a slang term. Evidently, CNN has a different editorial policy regarding use of the term than the other three. Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. Looking at Salon.com, which provides a more general commentary and language use than the strictly editorially supervised news services, we find a total of 1528 articles online with "marijuana" (no date restriction on the search, so you can't compare frequency of appearance with the above news sources). Of these, 1197 use the word "pot," and only 48 use the term "grass." Salon does not use quotation marks around "pot" or otherwise indicate that it is a slang term. Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:16:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:16:22 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >> terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >> decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >> categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and > > slang usage. I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that has retained its slang categorization. L From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:15:50 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:15:50 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:19:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:19:39 -0400 Subject: "ebay" as an adverb In-Reply-To: <17b.a88dacd.2a520d37@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0400 7/1/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >From an e-mail from a local charitable organization: > > "We are in need of an individual(s) who is ebay savvy to sell new >merchandise that has been donated to us for a fund raiser." > Not an adverb here, any more than "house" is in "house-proud" or "trigger" in "trigger-happy". I'd analyze "ebay(-)savvy" as a compound adjective incorporating a nominal modifier. L From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 20:19:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:19:33 EDT Subject: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:56:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, A Google search on the word "googling" turned up 6,410 hits. I can't decide whether to characterize this as Web-users' jargon, slang, or simply the English language's ready ability to verb a noun. (56 hits on "to verb a", a phrase I first encountered circa 1998). - James A. Landau From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 20:22:25 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? Message-ID: RE what Jesse S points out below, and his example _bumsickle_: Given that it is not a substitute term for some common term (the core idea behind slang, per Fred Cassidy), I'd label this "informal". However, it is certainly true that it feels "slangy". Because of the widespread misunderstanding or murkiness of the meaning of "slang", the (UK) New Oxford Dictionary of English (1998) took the extreme step of not using the "slang" label at all. They used "informal" instead. This struck me as going too far. All slang is informal, but not all that it informal is slang. A good example is _bumsickle_. Oh, and btw, might it be spelled "bumsicle", on the grounds that it is a play on _Popsicle_, the brand name for a frozen treat? Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 9:58 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: An initial 4A N2...? On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > > I say yes. If a word is jargon, it is not slang. If an employer gives his > employees a glossary of words which the employees are required to use, then > the words in that glossary have become jargon. > > A clarificaition: a word can be part of the technical vocabulary of one > group, and therefore jargon as far as that group is concerned, yet be slang > to the outside world. "Homer" was the only example I could think of. A > baseball player is not unlikely to get into a discussion of the alleged > home-team bias of a particular umpire, and therefore finds "homer" meaning > "umpire biased towards the home team" as part of his technical vocabulary. > To the fan in the stands, however, "homer" is merely another, and not very > necessary, term for a home run. [...] > Yes, a word or term can simultaneously be jargon, within a particular group, > and slang outside that group. See examples above. I'm not sure I agree with this--why can't there be a word which is both jargon, in that it is part of the technical vocabulary of some particular group, and also slang _even to members of that group,_ if it has the rhetorical marking, insociant, etc. attitudes one would otherwise consider a hallmark of slang? For example, take the word _bumsickle,_ in use among medical personnel to refer to a homeless person suffering from hypothermia. This would strike me as jargon in that it's got a specific meaning among medical personnel, it describes something for which there's no other brief synonym, it would be used in real medical situations to communicate something etc., but it also strikes me as clearly slangy for various reasons. Jesse Sheidlower OED From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 20:40:33 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:40:33 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000f01c22138$5ea08ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Dave Wilton said, re the use of the terms _pot_ and _grass_ ('marijuana) in the news media: >> Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. << All the major media have editorial policies, though things still slip through the editorial process. I propose a different arena as "the last medium to be penetrated by a slang term". That would be language used by attorneys in courts of law, when asking questions of witnesses. Slang is avoided, or at least defined for the record (if used in testimony) so that the reference is clear. Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 20:59:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:59:32 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:22 PM -0400 7/1/02, Frank Abate wrote: >RE what Jesse S points out below, and his example _bumsickle_: > >... >Oh, and btw, might it be spelled "bumsicle", on the grounds that it is a >play on _Popsicle_, the brand name for a frozen treat? > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an old TV show?) larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:07:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:07:05 -0400 Subject: Bergy Bits, Growlers, PIGs, I&I; Alaska Dictionary (1988) Message-ID: Greetings from the Valdez Library (Alaska). BERGY BITS, GROWLERS--Seen on a display at the Valdez Museum. Broken off bits of icebergs. BALEEN--The Museum says it's called "nature's plastic." SLIMERS--People involed in seafood processesin, such as the "slime line." PIGs--Pipeline Inspection Gauge. There are smart pigs and scraper pigs. It was written as "pigs" and not PIGs." One tour guide here didn't know the acronym. ROUTE, ROOF--The tour guide is from Michigan, and she came to Valdez in 1975. "Route" she pronounced like the word "out," and "roof" she said like the word "rough." ------------------------------------------------------------- AMAZING PIPELINE STORIES by Dermot Cole Fairbanks: Epicenter Press 1997 Pg. 118: ...$1,100 a week for working "seven tens," seven days a week, ten hours a day on the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. Pg. 124: In some quarters, R&R was known as "I&I," meaning "Intoxication and Intercourse." ------------------------------------------------------------- ALASKA DICTIONARY AND PRONUNCIATION GUIDE by Jan O'Meara 155 pages, paperback Homer, Alaska: Wizard Works A nice book. I'm short of time on this computer. Let me know if you want a copy at $11.95. Pg. 3: AG LAND (Agricultural Land--ed.) Pg. 5: ALASKA TUXEDO--Slack and jacket ensemble of wool whipcord, somewhat resembling a heavy-duty leisure suit... Pg. 5: ALASKAN HIGH KICK... Pg. 12: ATHABASKAN... (OED?--ed.) Pg. 13: AVALANCHE CHUTE... Pg. 15: BANANA BELT... Pg. 16: BARN DOOR--Slang term for extremely large HALIBUT, generally larger than 200 pounds; sometimes also called a SOAKER. Pg. 20: BEAR PAWS--Rather stubby type of SNOWSHOE, rounded on both ends... Gotta go! 1988 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:17:26 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:17:26 -0700 Subject: Bergy Bits, Growlers, PIGs, I&I; Alaska Dictionary (1988) In-Reply-To: <585FE030.6DBB7191.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > ALASKA DICTIONARY AND PRONUNCIATION GUIDE > by Jan O'Meara > 155 pages, paperback > Homer, Alaska: Wizard Works > > Pg. 12: ATHABASKAN... (OED?--ed.) > In OED. Variant spelling of Athapascan, -paskan. Earliest cite is 1776. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:17:39 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:17:39 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany >> From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:29:55 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:29:55 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. > >In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > ><< On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >>I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >>has retained its slang categorization. > >Works for me. > >Bethany >> A number of years ago, I bought a reprint of a late 18th or early 19th century book of London "argot" (or "slang"--it's at home, so I can't check). While quite a number of its entries, understandably, seemed quite dated, some weren't. One that I recall offhand was "pig" for policeman. Alice From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:39:45 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:39:45 EDT Subject: POT as a "standard" Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 3:56:00 PM, dave at WILTON.NET writes: << Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. >> Interesting data. But it seems to me that all this merely demonstrates that MARIJUANA is the standard term and POT and GRASS are slang terms of varying quantities of use and levels of informality; though both are widely known and used, POT is more frequent and is to some degree the preferred informal term. Just what does it mean to say that a word "is making its way into standard American English"? From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 21:41:47 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:41:47 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 5:31:38 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: << One that I recall offhand was "pig" for policeman. >> though that may be an accidental rebirth rather than a continuous transmission From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 1 21:51:12 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:51:12 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM said: >In a message dated 7/1/02 5:31:38 PM, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > ><< One that I recall offhand was "pig" >for policeman. >> > >though that may be an accidental rebirth rather than a continuous transmission Of course...But still... Alice From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 1 21:53:15 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:53:15 -0700 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an > old TV show?) It's a term commonly found in sci-fi, from 1966. See http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf.shtml. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 1 22:01:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:01:54 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I believe that "cunt," in use since at least c. 1230, is still considered slang. "Cool" goes back to only 1948 and "dope" to 1851, according to the OED. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: RonButters at AOL.COM [mailto:RonButters at AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the oldest surviving slang How about DOPE as in "Don't be such a dope."? Surely that is older. In a message dated 7/1/02 4:16:21 PM, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. Works for me. Bethany >> From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 22:19:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:19:47 -0400 Subject: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000f01c22138$5ea08ae0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Good work. Now we have something to work on. A difficulty: is "grass" older than "pot" (and on its way out), rather than "slangier"? dInIs > > When we fly by the seat of our pants in declaring "pot" one thing and >> "grass" another, we air our opinions, but we do the linguistic world >> no service (except to let it know what our personal feelings are). > >Guilty as charged regarding flying by the seat of my pants, but I would >substitute "personal experience" for "personal feelings." It is a judgment >based on how I've encountered the use of the terms, not on what I would like >them to be. > >But you've challenged me to justify this judgment... > >Googling on "pot marijuana" turns up some 124,000 hits, while "grass >marijuana" gets you only some 38,900. This is probably a pretty good >indicator of the relative popularity of the two terms. > >Searching in NY Times over the last week (24 Jun-1 Jul), turns up 14 >articles containing the word "marijuana." There are two articles containing >the word "pot" in the drug sense, one a letter to the editor and the other >an excerpt from a novel. There are no uses of "grass" in the drug sense for >the same period (lots of articles about Wimbledon though). > >A similar search in the Washington Post also turns up 14 articles with >"marijuana." None for "pot" or "grass." > >AP has some 20 articles with "marijuana" (that number is rough because AP >posts articles to the wire multiple times and I may have miscounted). It has >2 with "pot;" one uses it in a headline, the other in a direct quote. > >CNN.com has six articles with "marijuana" for the same period. It uses the >drug sense of "pot" in two articles; CNN doesn't use quotation marks or >otherwise indicate that it's a slang term. Evidently, CNN has a different >editorial policy regarding use of the term than the other three. > >Given their strict editorial policies, one would expect that mainstream news >articles would be just about the last medium to be penetrated by a slang >term. Here we're seeing "pot" starting to make its way into them. > >Looking at Salon.com, which provides a more general commentary and language >use than the strictly editorially supervised news services, we find a total >of 1528 articles online with "marijuana" (no date restriction on the search, >so you can't compare frequency of appearance with the above news sources). >Of these, 1197 use the word "pot," and only 48 use the term "grass." Salon >does not use quotation marks around "pot" or otherwise indicate that it is a >slang term. > >Based on this, I stand by my statement that "pot" has made or is making its >way into standard American English, while "grass" remains a slang term. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 1 22:20:56 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:20:56 -0400 Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about "booze"? dInIs >>on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > > >> > Another problem with defining "slang" is ephemerality. While most slang >>> terms are ephemeral, some (like "grass" and "threads") hang around for >>> decades. Slang is characterized by ephemerality, but it is not defined or >>> categorized by it. The same could probably be said for social groups and >> > slang usage. > >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >has retained its slang categorization. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 1 22:30:48 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:30:48 -0700 Subject: fabling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This came in on one of my husbands psych lists: >Just got back from an evaluation at detention and gave wisc III. >In response to vocabulary substest: FABLE. kid says lying and I >asked to explain and he says: >It is like when you are fabling .....and explained that this mean lying. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 1 22:50:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:50:48 -0400 Subject: FW: An initial 4A N2...? In-Reply-To: <000501c22149$b4553f10$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 02:53:15PM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > > Cf. "corpsicle", for frozen stiffs. (I forget the context, maybe an > > old TV show?) > > It's a term commonly found in sci-fi, from 1966. See > http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf.shtml. Or use the permanent address for linking, http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf.shtml Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 22:55:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:55:03 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part two Message-ID: Pg. 21: BERING, VITUS; BETHEL; B.I.A.; BIDARKA, BAIDARKA; BILLIKIN Pg. 22: BLACK GOLD; BLACK ICE; BLANKET TOSS; B.L.M.; BLUBBER Pg. 24: BOAR--Male BEAR; BORE TIDE, BOROUGH. Pg. 25: BOTTOMFISH; BOWHEAD WHALE; BREAK-UP Pg. 27: BRISTOL BAY; BROWNIE--Brown BEAR; BULL; BULL COOK--Combination janitor, caretaker, handyman, and cook's helper in remote construction or timber camps; BUNNY BOOTS; BUSH Pg. 28: BUSH CAUCUS--Coalition of Alaska NATIVE politicians...; BUOY; CABIN FEVER; CACHE Pg. 30: CALVE; CAMP ROBBER; CANDLEFISH--Another name for HOOLIGAN...; CANNERY; CARIBOU; CAT SKINNER--Slang term for a Caterpillar tractor driver... Pg. 33: CHAIN; CHEECHAKO; CHICKEN; CHILKAT; CHILKOOT PASS/TRAIL Pg. 35: CHINOOK; CHIRIKOF, LT. ALEXEI; CHITINA; CHUGACH; CHUM Pg. 37 CHUTE (shoot); CLAN; CLEAR-CUTTING; COHO Pg. 39: COLUMBIA GLACIER; CONSERVATIONIST; COOK INLET; CORDOVA; CORE SAMPLE Pg. 40: CORK; CORN SNOW; COW; CRITICAL HABITAT; CUB--Immature BEAR; DALL Pg. 42: DALTON HIGHWAY, DAWSON; DELTA BARLEY PROJECT; DENA'INA; DENALI Pg. 45: DEVELOPER; DEVIL'S CLUB; DEW (doo) LINE; DILLINGHAM; DIOMEDE ISLANDS Pg. 47: DIP NETTING--Type of SUBSISTENCE fishing...; DOG BOX; DOG SALMON--Another name for CHUM salmon...; DOLLY VARDEN--Sea-run trout...; DOUGLAS Pg. 48: DREDGE; DRIFTER; DRILLING RIG; D-2 LANDS; DUNGIE--Dungeness crab...; DUTCH HARBOR--ALEUTIAN ISLAND Pg. 49: EAGLE; EAR PULL; EAR WEIGHT; EGAN, WILLIAM A>; EIELSON AIR FORCE BASE Pg. 50: ELMENDORF AIR FORCE BASE; ESKIMO; ESKIMO ICE CREAM--Confection popular with NATIVES, made from a mixture of berries, seal oil or other fat and snow whipped together, sometimes with sugar added; called akutak in YUPIK; ESKIMO OLYMPICS Pg. 51: EYAK; FAIRBANKS; FIREWEED Pg. 52: FISH BURNER--Nickname for a dog, so called because rural NATIVES and other owners of sled dogs often feed their animals large quantities of dried fish; FISH AND FEATHERS--Nickname for federal and state fish and wildlife management agencies; usually used pejoratively; FISH AND GAME; FISH AND WILDLIFE; FISH TRAP--Now outlawed device once used by canneries to catch millions of SALMON... Pg. 53: FISH WHEEL; FLARING; FLOAT; FORAKER; FORGET-ME-NOT; FORT GREELEY Pg. 55: FORT RICHARDSON; FORT WAINWRIGHT; FOURTH AVENUE; FREEZE-UP; FROST HEAVE--A break or bump in the road...; FRY Pg. 56: FUR RONDY; GANGLINE; GEE--Command to dog team to turn right; GIANT; GILL NETTER Pg. 57: GLACIER; GLACIER BAY; GLARE ICE; GOLD PAN; GOLD RUSH Pg. 58: GOOD FRIDAY EARTHQUAKE; GRAYLING; GRAZING LEASE; GREAT LAND; GRIZZLY; GRUBSTAKE Pg. 59: GRUENING, ERNEST; GUILLOTINE; GULF COAST; GUSSUK--ESKIMO term for a caucasian, sometimes used disparagingly, said to originate from the Russian word "Cossack"; HAIDA (To be continued) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 1 23:10:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:10:17 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part three Message-ID: Pg. 61: HAINES; HALIBUT; HARDHEAD--Affectionate term for commercial fishermen of Norwegian ancestry...; HATCHERY; HAUL ROAD; HAW--Command to sled dog team to turn left. Pg. 62: HICKEL, WALTER J.: HICKEL HIGHWAY; HIGH BUSH CRANBERRY; HIGHLINER--Term used for commercial fishermen who catch the largest quantities of fish...; HOMER; HOMESTEAD Pg. 63: HOOK; HOOK AND RELEASE; HOPE; HOOLIGAN; HUMMOCK; HUMPBACK WHALE Pg. 65: HUMPY; HUNDRED-MILE-AN-HOUR-TAPE--Duct tape...; HUSKY; HYPOTHERMIA; ICE CREEPERS--Spiked plates that attach to soles of boots... Pg. 67: ICE FIELD; ICE FOG; ICEWORM; IDITAROD Pg. 69: IGLOO; ILIAMNA; INSIDE PASSAGE; INTERIOR; INUIT Pg. 71: INUPIAT, INUPIAQ; IRISH LORD--An incredibly ugly, spiny fish...; JACKS--Young king SALMON that are not fully grown; JACKSON, SHELDON; JIG Pg. 73: JITNEY; JUNEAU; KACHEMAK; KAKE Pg. 74: KASHIM; KATMAI; KAYAK; KENAI; KETCHIKAN Pg. 75: KICKER--BUSH term for an outboard motor...; KING CRAB; KINGS; KISKA Pg. 76: KLISTER--Gooey, sticky substance spread on waxable NORDIC SKIS...; KLONDIKE; KNIK; KNUCKLE HOP; KODIAK Pg. 77: KOLOSH; KONIAG; KOTZEBUE; KUSKOKWIM; KUSPUK--ESKIMO woman's summer PARKA...; KVICHAK Pg. 78: LABRET; LAND DISPOSAL; LAND LOTTERY; LAND SWAP Pg. 79: LANDING STRIP; LEAD DOG; LIMITED ENTRY; LINE; LIVENGOOD; LONGEVITY BONUS Pg. 81: LONGLINER; LOW BUSH CRANBERRY; LOWER 48; MALASPINA Pg. 82: MALEMUTE, MALAMUTE; MARINE HIGHWAY; MARINE MAMMAL; MATANUSKA Pg. 84: MATANUSKA VALLEY COLONY; MAT-SU; McKINLEY Pg. 85: METLAKATLA; MIDNIGHT SUN; MILEPOST; MILITARY RESERVATION Pg. 86: MOOSE; MOOSE GOOSER--Alaska equivalent of the "cow catcher" on railroad engines in the LOWER 48; slang term for the Alaska Railroad...: MOSQUITO Pg. 88: MOUNT AUGUSTINE; MOUNT FORAKER; MOUNT MARATHON; MUD BOOTS; MUDFLATS Pg. 89: MUKLUK; MUKLUK TELEGRAPH; MUKTUK; MURRES; MUSH; MUSHER Pg. 90: MUSKEG; MUSK OX; NATIONAL PETROLEUM RESERVE; NATIVE; NATIVE CORPORATION Pg. 91: NENANA ICE CLASSIC; NEW ARCHANGEL; NIKISKI or NIKISHKA; NIKOLAEVSK; 1991; NINILCHIK Pg. 92: NOME; NORDIC SKIS; NORTHERN LIGHTS; NORTH POLE; NORTH SLOPE Pg. 93: NORTHWEST PASSAGE; OLD BELIEVER--Member of the sect of RUSSIAN ORTHODOX Christians... Pg. 95: ONE-FOOT HIGH KICK; ONE-HAND REACH; ONION DOME; OOGRUK; OOSIK; OPEN-TO-ENTRY LAND; ORCA Pg. 98: OUTSIDE; PACK ICE; PAD Pg. 99: PALMER; PANCAKE ICE; PANHANDLE; PARKA; PARKA SQUIRREL Pg. 100: PARKS HIGHWAY; PASS; PENINSULA; PERMAFROST Pg. 102: PERMANENT FUND; PEROK--ALso called "piroshki" and "perogue"; a fish pie or turnover made with rice...; PERSONAL USE; PETERSBURG; PET FOUR Pg. 103: PINKS; PIONEER; PIPELINE; PLACER MINING (Perhaps to be continued later--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 00:22:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:22:33 EDT Subject: evanescence of slang (was: An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: In a message dated 07/01/2002 6:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > How about "booze"? > > dInIs > > >>on 7/1/02 11:45 AM, Dave Wilton at dave at WILTON.NET wrote: > > > >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that > >has retained its slang categorization. OED2 has "booze" from 1732. No, it is not a Kentucky term. That beats Dennis Preston's favorite "cracker" (or "corn-cracker") which is 1766, "redneck" (quite late at 1893), and "white trash" (1831). 1833 "The slaves themselves entertain the very highest contempt for white servants, whom they designate as "poor white trash". - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 2 01:20:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:20:42 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:01 PM -0400 7/1/02, Baker, John wrote: > I believe that "cunt," in use since at least c. 1230, is >still considered slang. "Cool" goes back to only 1948 and "dope" to >1851, according to the OED. > >John Baker > Well, RHHDAS does have "cool" back the 1930's, but that's still not 1851, so I yield the point. I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that classification. With "dope" meaning 'idiot'--no such demur is possible. Larry From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 02:24:12 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:24:12 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: Why wouldn't this work: JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, societal, etc. barriers while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. For example, in the marijuana-smoking community, you can find the very old, the very young, black, white, male, female, etc. all calling a $10 amount of drugs a "dime bag". Therefore, that is jargon. However, it's been my experience that the older set use "grass" more and the younger set use "pot". Therefore, those are slang. And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't think 5-0 use of drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of their group; it's like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as slang for DMA, if that were true, then aspirin would be slang for acetylsalicylic acid, which I would say it is not. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . (and I just figured out what the original subject line meant!!!) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 02:38:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:38:12 -0400 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: According to one theory (Bert Kelly), "jazz" was spoken in Alaska around the turn of the century. I've looked before, and I looked at the Valdez newspapers today. I didn't find it. 10 February 1917, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, "A CHEECHACO'S VIEWS ON ALASKA," pg. 8, col. 4: Slang is almost unknown, but the necessities of a novel situation have of course led them to adopt new words unknown in the East, although some are used else where. A "sourdough" is an old Alaskan; a poke, an old English word; a "cheechaco" is a newcomer; a "Cywash" is an Indian. This word is a corruption of the French "sauvage." To "mush" is to travel on foot. This is derived from the French verb "marcher." An obedient dog, when told to mush will leave the premises. (...) 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: _"ICE WORM"_ _WIGGLE STEP_ _TYPICAL ALASKAN DANCE EVOLVED_ _AT WHITE HORSE SOON_ _TO BE THE RAGE_ Whitehorse, March 16. With the angle worm wriggle, the grizzly bear dance, the turkey trot and other risque dances, the rage outside since many of the soiurdoughs last saw an electric car, a typical Alaskan dance has evolved here. The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. 28 November 1917, VALDEZ DAILY PROSPECTOR, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 photo caption: "M-M-M! Turkey for Thanksgiving!" (See "mmm" in ADS-L archives--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Jul 2 02:48:37 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:48:37 -0400 Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak Message-ID: Just quick little quote of copspeak, because it has one of my favorite copspeak-type attributes: http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-153796020020701-040738.html "We did have a home invasion that occured here on the 28th just a few days ago. It was robbery type incident inside the house. Obviously having another incident this soon, possibly they are related," Maitland police Lt. Gary Calhoun said. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 06:53:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 02:53:26 -0400 Subject: Alaska Dictionary (1988), part four Message-ID: Pg. 104: PLATFORM; PLUG-IN; PORTAGE; POT--Metal and twine contraption used for catching shrimp and crab; POTLATCH Pg. 105: POWDER; PREDATOR CONTROL; PRESERVATIONIST; PRIBILOFS; PRINCE WILLIAM SOUND Pg. 107: PROMYSHLENNIKI;PROVE UP; PUDHOE BAY; PTARMIGAN Pg. 109: PUFFIN; PURSE SEINE; PUSHKI; QIVIUT Pg. 110: RAILBELT; RAVEN; RAZOR CLAMS; REDOUBT Pg. 112: REDS--Short, plural name for red SALMON...; REFUGE; REGIONAL CORPORATION; REINDEER; RICHARDSON, FORT Pg. 115: RIDGE; RIG; ROADHOUSE; ROCKER; ROE--Fish eggs; RONDY; ROOKERY; ROUGHNECK--Laborer on a DRILLING RIG Pg. 117: RUSSIAN-AMERICAN COMPANY; RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH; RUSSIAN VILLAGE; SALMON Pg. 118: SALTERY, SALTRY; SANDHILL CRANE; SCRIMSHAW; SEINER Pg. 120: SELDOVIA; SEISMIC TRAIL; SET; SET NETTER Pg. 121: SEWARD; SEWARD'S DAY; SHAMAN; SHELIKOFF; SHOE PACS Pg. 122: SILVERS; SITKA; SIX-PACK; SIWASH; SKAGWAY Pg. 123: SKATES; SKIFF; SKILAK; SKOOKUM; SLED DOG; SLEEPING LADY; SLIME LINE Pg. 124: SLIP; SLOPE; SLUICE BOX; SNAG; SNOW BIRD--Seasonal worker...; SNOW BLINDNESS; SNOW CRAB; SNOW-GO--Alternate name for snowmachine Pg. 126: SNOWSHOE; SOAKER--Extremely large HALIBUT...; SOAPY SMITH; SOCKED IN; SOCKEYE; SOLDOTNA Pg. 127: SOLSTICE; SORELS; SOUND; SOURDOUGH Pg. 128: SOUTHCENTRAL; SOUTHEAST; SOVEREIGNTY; SOW--Female BEAR; SPAWNING Pg. 129: SPENARD DIVORCE--Spouse-icide, the quick and dirty but legally and ethically incorrect way to end a marriage and rid oneself of a mate by doing them in...; SPILL; SPIT; SPOTTER; SPRUCE HEN Pg. 131: SQUAW CANDY--Hard and chewy, dried or smoke SALMON that resembles jerky in texture; relished as a snack by people and dogs; STARRING; STACK ROBBER; STARTER; STATE FERRY; STATEHOOD; STATE TROOPERS; STEAMERS--Little-neck clams...; STEELHEAD--Sea-run rainbow trout... (Pg. 132 is a cartoon of a "STATE FAIRY" for the "STATE FERRY" definition on Pg. 131--ed.) Pg. 133: STELLER, GEORG; STIKINE; SUBSISTENCE; SUBSURFACE RIGHTS Pg. 135: SUNDOGS; SURIMI--Fish paste made primarily from BOTTOMFISH...; SUSITNA; SWANSON RIVER; SWEAT EQUITY Pg. 137: SWING DOGS; TAIGA; TALKEETNA; TANAINA Pg. 138: TANANA; TANNER CRAB; TANNING' TERMINATION DUST--Cold, white stuff that falls from the sky and signals the end of Alask'a all-too-short summer...: THOUSAND MILE WAR Pg. 139: TIDAL FLAT; TIDE BROOK; TIMBER; TIN CAN--Slang term for a metal, as opposed to a wooden, boat; TLINGIT; TOE-PINCHING--Slang for trapping...: TOK Pg. 141: TONGASS; TOTEM; TRANS-ALASKA PIPELINE; TRAPLINE Pg. 143: TRAWL; TROLL; TSIMPSHIAN; TSUNAMI; TUNDRA; TURNAGAIN Pg. 146: TUSTUMENA; TWO-FOOT HIGH KICK; TYONEK; ULU--ESKIMO woman's knife...; UMIAK Pg. 147: VALDEZ; VENIAMINOV; VOLCANO Pg. 148: WAINRIGHT; WASILLA; WEATHERED IN; WHEEL DOGS; WHISKEY JACK--Nickname for the Canada Jay. See also CAMP ROBBER; WHITE ALICE--Communications system... Pg. 149: WHITE KNUCKLE SPECIAL--Rough commuter airline flight...; WHITE OUT--Winter weather condition...; WHITE PASS; WHITE SOCKS--Irritating little biting flies...; WHITTIER Pg. 152: WILDLIFE REFUGE; WILLIWAW; WIND CHILL FACTOR; WOOLY MAMMOTH; WORLD ESKIMO INDIAN OLYMPICS; WRANGELL Pg. 154: YAKUTAT; YUKON Pg. 155: YUPIK From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 2 09:26:03 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 05:26:03 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: o| |o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that |o| >has retained its slang categorization. Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And then there is it's kin "way kewl." rhk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Jul 2 12:25:38 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:25:38 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Surely the ineffective respelling of "cool" as "kule" will help convince some that a phonetic representation is in order if we want to know what is going on. I suspect (but cannot be sure) that the "kule" spelling attempts to offer the same indication of a glide (as in the "kyule" respelling), but that does not capture what, in fact, the magazine respelling does ("kewl") which to me clearly points to the fronting of /u/, a phenomenon sweeping North America. On the other hand, what is missing in this notice is the pervasive laxing of /u/ in this lexical item (for speakers who do not show general conflation of /u/ and /U/ before /l/. Many younger Michigan speakers, for example, have /kul/ for the temperature but /kUl/ for the attitude. (We actually teased this distinction out in a vowel-matching task we gave lots of Michigan undergrads several years ago in which nearly all matched the vowel of "rule" to the word "soon," but many matched "cool" to the vowel of "good." dInIs (too old to front) >o| >|o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >|o| >has retained its slang categorization. > >Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the >west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing >magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it >pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And >then there is it's kin "way kewl." > >rhk -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 13:45:02 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:45:02 EDT Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: > The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." > Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very > bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. The "ice-worm" is a hoax, made famous by a poem by Robert Service, entitled somethiing like "The Iceworm Cocktail". I have no idea if Service invented the hoax or merely wrote about it. - Jim Landau From slangman at PACBELL.NET Tue Jul 2 14:02:02 2002 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:02:02 -0700 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: "Once again, fact proves fiction true. Ice worms do exist, though the wags who created the mythical worm in Dawson at the turn of the century almost certainly did not know it. The real worms (Mesenchytraeus solifugus and several other species) are about three-quarters of an inch long and live near the surface of glaciers, feeding on airborne pollen and spores." Tabbertt, Russell: Dictionary of Alaskan English Juneau: Denali Press (1991) Page 264 "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 7/1/02 10:38:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM > writes: > > > 17 March 1912, VALDEZ WEEKLY MINER, pg. 6, col. 4: > > > The new terpsichorean step has been named the "Ice-Worm Wiggle." > > Although the dance has not been given in public yet, it is said to be very > > bizarre in its nature, recalling the old Dawson dance hall days. > > The "ice-worm" is a hoax, made famous by a poem by Robert Service, entitled > somethiing like "The Iceworm Cocktail". I have no idea if Service invented > the hoax or merely wrote about it. > > - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 2 14:59:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:59:07 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: <3D1F7433.DFB91D22@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: #TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable #of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares #please say PYE- not PAY-). Well, I seem to have deleted the exchange in which someone pointed out that PYE- could be the beginning of "Pierre", and Tom replied, iirc, that "Pierre" is not an English word, so I have to go by memory. This "system" of respelling, then, is apparently only useable for native and nativized words of American English, for some value of "nativized". How is the naive user to determine the boundary? Or is this method intended to be used actively only by experts, and only passively by others, such as users of a dictionary? How *would* you represent the pronunciations of "Pierre" and other words that combine AEng phonemes but transgress AEng phonotactics? Or are they simply excluded from consideration? I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Jul 2 14:59:31 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:59:31 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rick H Kennerly said: >o| >|o| >I always trot out "cool" as the longest-surviving lexical item that >|o| >has retained its slang categorization. > >Have noticed a morphing of cool among younger people, particularly from the >west coast. For 5 years I've seen it in print in west coast based sailing >magazines (Latitudes & Attitudes and Latitude 38) as "kewl" and hear it >pronounced like kyule or kule--the k being very softly articulated. And >then there is it's kin "way kewl." > Seven or eight years ago, I heard a New York based radio ad (for Tasty Kakes or some such) in which "kewl" and "cool" were semantically and phonologically contrasted; a dad who was trying to be with it said that the object being advertised was /kuwl/, and his supercilious teenage son corrected him "ice is /kuwl/, $OBJECT is /kyl/". (And, yes, $OBJECT is an *orthographic* example of computer-geek argot, I would think...) Alice From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Jul 2 15:27:02 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:27:02 -0700 Subject: (was Re: the oldest surviving slang) Message-ID: i have now seen the spelling used *both* for the fronted-/u/ pronunciation (now spreading throughout north america, as dInIs points out) *and* for the spread-lip-/u/ pronunciation (stereotypical surfer-dude, socal smile-when- you-produce-that-vowel, variant). the spelling seems to convey 'something noticeable done with the lips', but that thing could be either rounding or spreading. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 16:30:10 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:30:10 EDT Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:48:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes: > Just quick little quote of copspeak, because it has one of my favorite > copspeak-type attributes: > > http://www.mycfnow.com/orlpn/news/stories/news-153796020020701-040738.html > > "We did have a home invasion that occured here on the 28th just a few days > ago. It was robbery type incident inside the house. Obviously having another > incident this soon, possibly they are related," Maitland police Lt. Gary > Calhoun said. Not copspeak. Just an example of bureaucratese that happened to be describing an incident in the jurisdiction of the police department. Or perhaps legalese---the department's legal counsel might have told the department not to describe something as a "robbery" or a "burglary" until the grand jury returned an indictment, because local defense lawyers might accuse the police of jumping to conclusions or something. The phrase "robbery-type incident" sounds like something a cautious department counsel might require. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 16:55:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:55:47 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/1/02 10:24:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TlhovwI at AOL.COM writes: > Why wouldn't this work: > > JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, societal, etc. > barriers > while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. You are claiming that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. By my definition of "jargon", they are not. Some of the people in this thread who disagree with my definition of "jargon" also consider that a jargon (whatever it is) can easily contain words that are obviously slang as well as words that obviously are not. > And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't think 5-0 use of > drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of their group; it's > like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French > phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). I'm interested in your use of "5-0" to mean police. As far as I know, that term comes from the title of the television show "Hawaii 5-0". Is it in general use? > And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as slang for DMA, if > that were true, then aspirin would be slang for acetylsalicylic acid, which > would say it is not. "aspirin" is not slang. It was originally a trademark, which US courts long ago ruled had become generic. The original trademark owner was a German company called Bayer (something like Bayer A. G.). The American company which presently uses the name "Bayer" was originally the US branch of Bayer A. G., but received its independence from the German ownership thanks to World War I. - James A. Landau From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 2 17:33:18 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:33:18 -0400 Subject: Nice Little Bit of Copspeak In-Reply-To: <17c.a80c2f3.2a532f12@aol.com> Message-ID: |o| Not copspeak. Just an example of bureaucratese that happened to be |o| describing an incident in the jurisdiction of the police department. Actually, home invasion is a category of reportable crime on the FBI's UCR, uniform crime report. This report is made by all jurisdiction to the FBI on a regular basis so that the Department of Justice can track crime. From time to time crimes are added or redefined, depending on what the feds want to track (hate crimes were added recently). These are not legal definitions but working definitions for classification and tracking purposes used to smooth the various legal definitions used across the country. A home invasion is a crime committed by outsiders forcibly entering a home while someone is in the residence. There are subcategories such as Home Invasion: murder, Home Invasion: robbery, Home Invasion: assault. This is to differentiate between murders committed by someone invited into or living in the house and those done by outsiders forcing their way in, for instance. There is no Home Invasion: burglary, however, since burglary implies (in a legal sense) no victim present. If the victim is present, it's a robbery. rhk From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Tue Jul 2 17:43:35 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:43:35 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: Not exactly... >>You are claiming that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. By my >>definition of "jargon", they are not. Some of the people in this thread who >>disagree with my definition of "jargon" also consider that a jargon (whatever >>it is) can easily contain words that are obviously slang as well as words >>that obviously are not. I would not, actually, say that SLANG and JARGON are mutually exclusive. I tend to believe that jargon is a type of SLANG, but with much wider boundaries group-wise and smaller boundaries society-wise. A dime bag may always be a dime bag, but it's still "slangy" in my mind. But from here, the point gets cyclical. >>I'm interested in your use of "5-0" to mean police. As far as I know, that >>term comes from the title of the television show "Hawaii 5-0". Is it in >>general use? Yes, I think this is general slang. I've been running into it (and using it) since the mid-90's. I'm not sure if everyone knows that it came from the TV show or not, but yeah. And concerning aspirin... that's exactly why I wouldn't call "ecstasy" slang for MDMA. The slang term is either X (south) or E (east) in my experience, but I would definitely call "ecstasy" standard. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Jul 2 18:38:34 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:38:34 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] Message-ID: Mark, This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. TOM PAIKEDAY (more at website below in preparation) www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jun 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > > #TOM PAIKEDAY (pointing to the spelling of his name, the first syllable > #of which is not good orthography, but I didn't do it! Anyone who cares > #please say PYE- not PAY-). > > Well, I seem to have deleted the exchange in which someone pointed out > that PYE- could be the beginning of "Pierre", and Tom replied, iirc, > that "Pierre" is not an English word, so I have to go by memory. This > "system" of respelling, then, is apparently only useable for native and > nativized words of American English, for some value of "nativized". How > is the naive user to determine the boundary? Or is this method intended > to be used actively only by experts, and only passively by others, such > as users of a dictionary? How *would* you represent the pronunciations > of "Pierre" and other words that combine AEng phonemes but transgress > AEng phonotactics? Or are they simply excluded from consideration? ANSWER #1: Our orthographic respelling system (there's a full explanation in the Guide to the User's? Webster which I am appending hereto) works best with native and nativized words of AmE, as you put it. We try to do rough justice to non-English words such as "danseuse" (dahn.SOOZ), "loch" (LOK, LOKH), Pierre (PYAIR) - "rough" because many questions have to be left unanswered, like, Is that (PYE- as in "pie" or a labialized "p"?). On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the popular user, not for academics. In a couple of dictionaries of Cdn English I compiled in the Sixties, I used a simplified IPA, i.e. English letters for the most part plus 10 IPA symbols: c, s, z (with haceks in "chip, ship, measure"), the usual symbols in "thin," "this," and "sing") and u (with superscript "i", in "debut"), o (with superscript "e", in "danseuse"), reversed and inverted (without straining my back) "c" with superscript "n", in "bon mot"), and k (with superscript "h" in "loch" etc.). By 1980, I had decided this was too much of a strain on the average English user (one can't please both anglophones and francophones) and went on to develop the present keyless system. > > I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of > pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that > there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and > transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples > simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." > There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of > "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of > "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the > option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with > spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for [u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). (It could be argued that these are words which our sixth grader should know, but one can't be too nice). We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in "pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic systems used in dictionaries. There is no "naive user" for us, if I understand you right, but only one "tutored" to the elementary level. The "naive user" concept may be required for scientists working with mechanical devices using cut and dry (0/1) distinctions. I am no expert in spelling-to-sound work or the innards of computers (although it was my fascination with what even early computers could do to translate spelling into sound that made me purchase my first computer in 1980). > > Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? > ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of a midsize dictionary. > BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal > neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large >From the User Guide to The User's? Webster INTRODUCTION: The User's? Webster is designed for use without explanatory notes, pronunciation keys, and such aids. The user should be able to pick up the dictionary cold and find the desired information if it is within the scope of the book. However, a few tips on some of the main features of this dictionary are offered below. [SNIP] V. PRONUNCIATION SYSTEM (a) SYLLABLE DIVISION: As a general rule, a syllable division is made: (1) after the vowel if the vowel is long, diphthongized, or unstressed, the resulting syllable being called an "open" syllable; (2) after the consonant if the vowel is short and carries a stress, which results in a "closed" syllable. Examples: a.back, ab.a.cus, ab.ra.ca.dab.ra ... ze.ro, Zo.ro.as.tri.an, in which the underlined syllables [lost here, sorry] are closed, the others being open. This is only the most general of the rules of syllabication, but it is useful to know it explicitly. (b) The user is assumed to have acquired a familiarity with the basic sound-spelling patterns of English, as in the most common words of the language. No pronunciation is indicated for sounds whose spelling is such that only one pronunciation is normally possible. Such are: VOWELS: The vowel sounds of: at, sail, lake, air; bed, day; big, deep, deer, hide, bye, fire; on, cause, law, more; bone, oh, how, our, boy, oil; ah, but, poor, cure; uh, burn. Vowel sounds in certain phonetic contexts or positions: (1) words ending in -oal, -oat, -old, -olk, -olt, etc. have the long "o" or diphthong; (2) words and syllables ending in -ete, -ew, -ool, -oon, -oop, -oose, -ooth, -ude, -uke, -ume, -ute, etc. have long vowels, with the exception of wool; (3) words and syllables ending in -ee, -o, and -oo are long or diphthongized. CONSONANTS: The initial consonant sounds of: bad, can, chair, dog, fat, go, ghost, guess, guy, hat, just, keep, lake, make, name, page, quick, red, same, take, the, thin, very, wait, what, yes, zoo. These and other rules of English pronunciation are taken as implicitly known to users who have attained the primary-school (Grade 8) level of proficiency in reading and speaking. However, some pronunciations are made more explicit by additional helps, as in (awl.THOH, "TH" as in "the"), (ES.theet, "th" as in "thin"), (uh.LOOF, long "OO"), (buh.BOOSH.kuh, short or long "OO"), and (uh.DUCE, rhyme: produce). (c) ACCENTUATION Several levels of stress may be noted in English words when they are studied in isolation. Thus, com.mu.ni.ty could be analyzed as having its stresses distributed on the basis of relative force in this order of syllables: 3-1-4-2. In actual use, however, one rarely hears the main stress placed on the second syllable. In com.mu.ni.ca.tion, the main stress is supposed to be on the fourth syllable, but it is frequently placed on the second. Sentence stress partly explains this variation between what is correct when words are studied in isolation and how words are pronounced in actual, continuous speech. Most dictionaries routinely indicate a primary and a secondary stress for words of three syllables or more, as in ac.cen.tu.ate which is shown with a primary stress on the second syllable and a secondary stress on the last. The User's? Webster uses a more simplified system of accentuation, as explained below. (d) TO READ OFF THE PRONUNCIATIONS 1. A stressed syllable is shown in capitals. 2. A word of two syllables is assumed to have its stress on the first syllable if it is left unmarked for stress, as milk.shake (MILK.shake) whose accentuation and pronunciation are taken as self-explanatory. 3. In multisyllabic words, only the main stress is normally indicated, secondary stresses being considered variable, as explained above. 4. A second stress, however, is indicated using capitals when there are more than two syllables preceding the main stress and the syllable with the greater stress may be in doubt. Thus, u.til.i.tar.i.an (yoo.TIL.uh.TAIR.ee.un) is shown with the second syllable in capitals as well as the fourth. This kind of double stressing is normally not required when all but one of the syllables have neutral vowels, as in et.y.mo.log.i.cal (et.uh.muh.LOJ.uh.cul), in which only the first syllable has a full vowel and which, therefore, is the only other syllable besides the fourth that may be pronounced with a stress. The fullness of the vowel should give the syllable any stress that is required for good enunciation. 5. The letter group (uh) always stands for the unstressed neutral vowel, also called schwa, as in the first syllable of a.bove (uh.BUV), the middle syllable of syl.la.ble (SIL.uh.bul), and the last syllable of i.de.a (eye.DEE.uh). 6. Letter groups with (u) plus another consonant, as in ob.tain (ub.TAIN), ran.dom (RAN.dum), rang.er (RAIN.jur), ray.ment (RAY.munt), etc. are also normally pronounced with a neutral vowel if they are not shown stressed. Exceptions would be when a syllable becomes more prominent or gets a secondary stress because of its existence as a separate word. Thus, "-nut," the second syllable of do.nut (DOH.nut), could be pronounced either with a neutral sound or as if it rhymed with nut. But the second syllable of rib.bon (RIB.un) cannot rhyme with bun because "-bon" is not a word or word element. See also asset, convent, despot, product, shogun, slogan, and surplus. 7. The letter group (zh) is used for the sound of the "s" in measure, usual, vision, etc.; the sound of "g" in beige, regime, etc.; the sound of "j" in jabot, joual, etc.; and the sound of "z" in azure, seizure, etc. 8. All other pronunciations should be read using the most common English sounds of the syllables used in the respelling. Thus, live.long (LIV.long), live.ly (LIVE. lee), rind (RINED), etc. 9. When an alternative pronunciation or the pronunciation of a derivative is shown in abbreviated form, as in mil.i.tar.i.ly (-TAIR.uh.lee), the full pronunciation should be read as (mil.uh.TAIR.uh.lee) based on the previous word mil.i.tar.y (MIL.uh.tair.ee). As explained above, the relative force between the stresses of the first and third syllables of a word like mil.i.tar.i.ly is of mainly academic importance to the dictionary user. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 2 19:02:41 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:02:41 -0500 Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska Message-ID: Barry, Would you have the reference to Bert Kelly's mention that "jazz" was spoken in Alaska around the turn of the century? Where did you encounter it? I'm curious about what prompted this theory of his, and even it turns out to be baseless (as seems likely), I'd like to include his item in the bibliography on the term "jazz." Jerry >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:38:12 -0400 >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: No "jazz" in Alaska >Comments: cc: ASMITH1946 at aol.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > According to one theory (Bert Kelly), "jazz" was spoken in Alaska >around the turn of the century. I've looked before, and I looked at >the Valdez newspapers today. I didn't find it. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 2 20:43:27 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:43:27 -0700 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: <168.fec1335.2a5268cc@aol.com> Message-ID: > Why wouldn't this work: > > JARGON is a set of terms used by a group across age, class, > societal, etc. > barriers > while SLANG is much more (don't kill me for this) dialectal. I would buy that jargon cuts across age. It cuts across class in as much as different classes are represented in the group that uses the jargon (but legal jargon, for example, would tend to be the province of the upper middle class). But terms that cut across societal boundaries are called Standard English. I'm not sure what you mean by "dialectal," but if you mean regional then it is not necessarily true. I offer the following two definitions: Jargon: a specialized vocabulary predominately used within a profession, trade, or other activity with identifiable participants. Slang: an informal, nonstandard, nontechnical vocabulary composed chiefly of novel-sounding synonyms for standard words and phrases. [taken from RHHDAS] The two are not mutually exclusive. A term can be both slang and jargon (e.g., "bumsicle" is both slang and medical jargon). Note the "with identifiable participants" part of the jargon definition. I have given this a lot of thought, and have concluded that it is an essential part of the definition. If we wish to classify terms as jargon, we have to have some practical means of identifying those who are members of the group and those who are not. If we can't identify the group with some degree of precision, then we can't tell if use of the term is largely restricted to that group. This means that groups like the "marijuana-smoking community" can't have a jargon. Even if we came up with a strict definition of who potentially qualified (e.g., smoked more than 5 ounces in the last five years), there is no evident way to identify members and exclude nonmembers. On the other hand, we can have a prison jargon because convicts and correctional officers constitute a readily identifiable population. It may seem arbitrary, but it is essential for practical application of the definition. I use "activity" rather than "group" in order to exclude regional, ethnic, and class dialects from the definition of jargon. If someone can come up with a better term than "activity," I would appreciate it. (If a language is a dialect with an army, then a jargon is a slang with a journal.) > For example, in the marijuana-smoking community, you can find > the very old, > the very young, black, white, male, female, etc. all calling > a $10 amount of > drugs a "dime bag". Therefore, that is jargon. However, it's been my > experience that the older set use "grass" more and the > younger set use > "pot". Therefore, those are slang. This is a good example for the "identifiable participants" clause. My gut tells me that use of "dime bag" is largely restricted to marijuana smokers and would qualify as jargon, while "pot" is widely used outside that group and would not (but could still be slang). But for the life of me, I can't define a research project to validate my hunch. I can't identify the population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine what terms are used within and without that population. > And bringing it back to the pigs for a moment... I don't > think 5-0 use of > drug terms counts for anything... they aren't the words of > their group; it's > like me learning french and when I mess up my pronunciation, French > phoneticians freaking out about new allophones (or something...). A lot depends on your image of narcs. If your image of narcs conforms to "Dragnet," clearly the cops are not using drug slang as their own. But if your image of cops conforms to "Hill Street Blues" and "NYPD Blue," the cops use the terms as their own. Which image is more accurate is the question. I would think the latter is more accurate, but I don't really know. > And one last teeny side note, I won't consider ecstasy as > slang for DMA, if > that were true, then aspirin would be slang for > acetylsalicylic acid, which I > would say it is not. Analogies like this aren't valid; usage doesn't follow logic. Each term must be evaluated independently. "Aspirin" is a standard term as it is a generally used term for the substance; "acetylsalicylic acid" is pharmacological jargon. The question is whether or not either term, "ecstasy" or "DMA," is generally used and qualifies as standard. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 2 21:11:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: <3D21F32A.B3B7C4EA@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: #This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are #interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. Thanks for the explanation. I now understand much better the context of this system. #On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the #popular user, not for academics. Clear enough, and agreed. -- Without quoting or remarking on your whole post, I'll agree that it's appropriate to that purpose, although definitely not for describing pronunciations on this list. [Mark M.] #> I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of #> pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that #> there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and #> transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples #> simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." #> There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of #> "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of #> "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the #> option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with #> spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. # #ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. #About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school #graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in #isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for #[u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford #American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. For a dictionary, "system for system's sake" may be an appropriate dismissal. For a speech recognition company, though, system is absolutely essential. We *had* to provide for users to say "Pierre" and "Khrushchev" (as both /'krus.CEv/ and /'kruS.CEv/, and maybe /kruS.COf/ as well -- C and S are c/s-hacek, E and O low-mid), and a whole slew of other non-English words and, especially, names. #We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous #phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either #long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we #say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). Ah. This "shoehorn", as exemplified below in your reply, is what I didn't recall seeing in the earlier discussion. Extranotational annotation, like mine above for "Khrushchev", can cover anything. In this case, you rely on it (appropriately, imho) to cover distinctions not made by the respelling. #We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, #like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no #indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in #"pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic #systems used in dictionaries. Agreed, these would be wholly excessive for your purpose. #> Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? #> #ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants #to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of #a midsize dictionary. My bad example. I meant the distinction between the nuclei, which is made by your annotations: suit SOOT (with long "oo") soot SOOT (with short "oo") -- yes? #> BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal #> neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? # #ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all #wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their #own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice #for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. Now, here's a problem. Discussion below, after the quote of your summary of principle. #We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can #with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising #academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I #hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no #offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could #go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. I understand your argument, and I suppose you're right about "most users". But presumably the reason your users consult the pronunciations is that they don't know how to pronounce a particular word. Your use of "normally" suggests that the cot/caught distinction is exceptional, so far outside the (descriptive) norm that you're justified in generally dismissing it. If a user speaks a dialect that maintains the distinction, how is she supposed to know from your merged respelling which vowel to use in an unfamiliar word? To take a more plausible example than "cot" and "caught", imagine a New York City high school junior looking up the unfamiliar words "sot" and "fraught" (more likely to be unfamiliar than the minimal example "sought"). The "o" respelling will tell her, misleadingly, that she should rhyme them. How is she to know otherwise? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 2 23:38:39 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:38:39 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I suppose that, as we have already seen, there is real room for a difference of opinion on just what is slang. In the case of "cunt," I think there's at least a good argument that it's slang for "vagina." (Historically, of course, "cunt" at one point was standard English, as demonstrated by its c. 1400 use in a medical textbook.) "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of "damn." If you take the position, implicit in some definitions, that slang requires an element of novelty, then neither word is slang. I suspect, though, that a firm novelty requirement would narrow the universe of slang down a little too much for comfort. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that classification. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 01:02:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:02:38 -0400 Subject: Iceberg categories; Alaskan speak; Burger Jim Message-ID: Greetings from Anchorage. I take a 5 p.m. flight home on Wednesday, July 3rd. I'll be back the morning of July 4th. Then, on July 6th, I fly to southern Germany, where my plane will collide with another plane in mid-air. (Where is this Landau guy when you need him?) --------------------------------------------------------------- ICEBERG CATEGORIES The State Ferry guy next to "PFD Otter" (How did otters survive all these years without PFDs?) showed me a book that defines icebergs: <3 feet brash ice 3-7 feet growler ice 7-15 feet bergy bits >15 feet iceberg If close enough that you can hear fizzing, it's called "bergy seltzer" or "ice seltzer." --------------------------------------------------------------- ALASKAN SPEAK FROMMER'S ALASKA 2002 has "An Alaska Glossary" on Page 450: breakup; bunny boots; cheechako; dry or damp (alcohol towns--ed.); Lower 48; Native; Native Corporation; (Pg. 451--ed.) oosik--The huge male penile bone of a walrus (Thanks for this useless info, Frommer's--ed.); Outside; PFD--Permanent Fund Dividend; pioneer; salmon; SOutheast; tsunami; village WHERE (ALASKA & THE YUKON) 2002/2003 has "SAY IT IN ALASKAN" on Page 21: Outside; Snowmachine; Rig; Cheechako; Sourdough; Kicker--...it's the outboard motor on your boat; "The lights are out"--...The aurora borealis; Midnight sun; Termination dust; The Bush (Sorry if both are pretty weak--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- BURGER JIM ("PRIDE OF ALASKA") About a block away from here in Anchorage is Burger Jim ("Pride of Alaska"). If you need more exact directions, well--it's next door to The New York Deli. Burger Jim adds avocado to the BLT for a BLTA (not BALT?). Today's special at the "Pride of Alaska" is "London Burger." A "London Burger" is a burger with Canadian bacon, American and Swiss cheese. --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. ALL THAT JAZZ: My "jazz" posts in the old ADS-L archive seem to be largely destroyed. Bert Kelly stated in his book (Vantage Press self-published, but cited by Peter Tamony) that he got the word "jazz" from San Francisco, but that "jazz" probably dates from Alaskan gold rush towns. Well, if the slang existed at all, it would have been the name of a saloon, or a mine, or even a town. "Jazz" is not there in Alaskan names, and it's not there in Alaskan literature, and now I didn't see it in Alaskan newspapers. PRINCE WILLIAM SOUND bites: Near the College Fiord are the Yale and Harvard Glaciers. Barry Glacier is close to that, but the place is clearly lacking a Popik Point, Popik Passage, and Port Popik. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:26:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:26:09 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" >are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized >speakers make the distinction. But seriously folks, these respelling matters are more than a little worth attention. I devised a system in the 70's to let unphoneticized speakers of American English approximate Polish pronunciations (against my grain, of course, but I was encouraged to do it). Rudy's point made earlier, which I have a great deal of sympathy for, was, quite simply, that Americans are so badly educated linguistically that I could not rely on an even minimal knowledge of a phonetic alpahbet. (Even academics, in discourse analysis,for example, have told me (and told others about me in print) that the "burden" on ethnomethodologists to learn a phonetic alphabet [when they provide unintelligible respellings!] would be too great). So, if we keep making up bad systems (and the "annotations" surely show how really awful they are), we have only ourselves to blame. dInIs >On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Thomas Paikeday wrote: > >#This is what I call taking the bull by the horns. My answers are >#interspersed below right after the questions. Thanks for asking. > >Thanks for the explanation. I now understand much better the context of >this system. > >#On the defensive, I'd say the system is tailored to the needs of the >#popular user, not for academics. > >Clear enough, and agreed. -- Without quoting or remarking on your whole >post, I'll agree that it's appropriate to that purpose, although >definitely not for describing pronunciations on this list. > > [Mark M.] >#> I had to face a very similar issue in constructing representations of >#> pronunciations at Dragon Systems. A senior scientist kept insisting that >#> there had to be some way of spelling each phoneme distinctly and >#> transparently to the naive user, answering each of my counterexamples >#> simply by shaking his head and repeating, "There's GOT to be a way." >#> There isn't: SOME learning is required, e.g., OOH for [u:] (the "oo" of >#> "mood" to you, Tom, or the "ui" of "suit") vs. OO for [U] (the "oo" of >#> "foot"). And it's especially impossible (imho) if you don't allow the >#> option, as we did, of separating multi-letter phoneme symbols with >#> spaces or hyphens: that's where the ambiguity of "PYE" arises. ># >#ANSWER #2: Mark, I feel for you and almost completely agree with you. >#About the learning part, I believe the average elementary school >#graduate should be able to read (OOH) as it is meant to be read, not in >#isolation, but in well-known phonetic contexts. When you say "OOH for >#[u:]" that looks like a system for system's sake as in the Oxford >#American Dictionary and others, and that means more learning. > >For a dictionary, "system for system's sake" may be an appropriate >dismissal. For a speech recognition company, though, system is >absolutely essential. We *had* to provide for users to say "Pierre" and >"Khrushchev" (as both /'krus.CEv/ and /'kruS.CEv/, and maybe /kruS.COf/ >as well -- C and S are c/s-hacek, E and O low-mid), and a whole slew of >other non-English words and, especially, names. > >#We use a shoehorn to distinguish between "long" and "short" in ambiguous >#phonetic contexts. Thus for "foot" (granted the vowel could be either >#long or short) we give the pronunciation as (short "oo"). For "food," we >#say (long "oo") and for "good" (short "oo"). > >Ah. This "shoehorn", as exemplified below in your reply, is what I >didn't recall seeing in the earlier discussion. Extranotational >annotation, like mine above for "Khrushchev", can cover anything. In >this case, you rely on it (appropriately, imho) to cover distinctions >not made by the respelling. > >#We also don't bother about the nicer phonetic questions involved, >#like whether the long "oo" is diphthongized or not, just as no >#indication is given for aspirated/unaspirated consonants as in >#"pin/spin" (a question Rudy raised) in the best of IPA and diacritic >#systems used in dictionaries. > >Agreed, these would be wholly excessive for your purpose. > >#> Come to think of it, how do you respell "suit" and "foot"? >#> >#ANSWER #3: "foot" is respelled as explained above, but if anyone wants >#to check whether it's OK to say (SYOOT), that is not within the scope of >#a midsize dictionary. > >My bad example. I meant the distinction between the nuclei, which is >made by your annotations: > suit SOOT (with long "oo") > soot SOOT (with short "oo") > -- yes? > >#> BTW, did you ever answer my other question, about dialectal >#> neutralizations such as which/witch and cot/caught? ># >#ANSWER #4: We leave this to the "tutored" user. This applies to all >#wha-/whe-/whi- words. Similarly, users may go for what is usual in their >#own dialects on the cot/caught question. Normally (cot) should suffice >#for both words. But we do use the "aw-" respelling on occasion. > >Now, here's a problem. Discussion below, after the quote of your summary >of principle. > >#We try to be user-friendly (not scholastic) and do the best job we can >#with the best tools at our command. I appreciate scholars raising >#academic questions because the system has to make linguistic sense (I >#hope mine does), but most users, we believe, couldn't care less (no >#offence!) about systems and keys to systems and if they did, they could >#go to a bigger dictionary like Webster's Third or OED. > >I understand your argument, and I suppose you're right about "most >users". But presumably the reason your users consult the pronunciations >is that they don't know how to pronounce a particular word. Your use of >"normally" suggests that the cot/caught distinction is exceptional, so >far outside the (descriptive) norm that you're justified in generally >dismissing it. If a user speaks a dialect that maintains the >distinction, how is she supposed to know from your merged respelling >which vowel to use in an unfamiliar word? > >To take a more plausible example than "cot" and "caught", imagine a New >York City high school junior looking up the unfamiliar words "sot" and >"fraught" (more likely to be unfamiliar than the minimal example >"sought"). The "o" respelling will tell her, misleadingly, that she >should rhyme them. How is she to know otherwise? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:27:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:27:47 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda formal equivalent of 'fuck.' dInIs > I suppose that, as we have already seen, there is real room >for a difference of opinion on just what is slang. In the case of >"cunt," I think there's at least a good argument that it's slang for >"vagina." (Historically, of course, "cunt" at one point was >standard English, as demonstrated by its c. 1400 use in a medical >textbook.) "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, >although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of >"damn." > > If you take the position, implicit in some definitions, that >slang requires an element of novelty, then neither word is slang. I >suspect, though, that a firm novelty requirement would narrow the >universe of slang down a little too much for comfort. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:21 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang > >I'm not sure I see "cunt" as principally >slang, though, its appearance in RHHDAS notwithstanding. Allen >Walker Read (in his material on the F-word in the new publication) >has some counterarguments, and a tracing of the word's history (back >through the poetry of Wilmot, Earl of Rochester or the songs of >Robbie Burns, inter many alia), would also lead me to question that >classification. > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 01:35:38 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:35:38 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 01:36:46 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:36:46 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #>Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" #>are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized #>speakers make the distinction. I hope you're talking about Tom's text, not mine! -- Mark M. From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 05:02:30 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:02:30 -0700 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: Dennis first asked. Bethany referred him to Bill. Bethany knows when to let another "expert" handle a query she wouldn't touch, or rather, not touch with Denny. She figures if he, especially as an adult linguistic scholar, doesn't know what sexual intercourse is by this time, he's beyond her salvation--or best efforts. Beyond her downright bloody interest. I lay odds 10-1 that even if Denny's parents gave him 2002 Ferrari and begs Bethany, he won't get into her pants ever. 5-1 he doesn't know how. The guys are taking bets now. (Don't you dare tell Den-Den. He would have a shitfit.) Love Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 05:06:57 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:06:57 -0700 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: I do beg your pardon for my most inappropriate "humor" which was accidentally missent. I suppose this does it for me on the list. My apologies both to Dennis and Bethany. I'll bow out gracefully. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 3 02:30:20 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:30:20 -0500 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: A colleague has sent two queries my way: (1) Why do we say "for good" (= forever), as in: "He left California for good"? (2) Why do we say "face the music"? What was the original reference here? Would anyone have any ideas? Gerald Cohen From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 03:24:09 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:24:09 EDT Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) Message-ID: >>I can't identify the >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine what >>terms are used within and without that population. Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but a good amount of work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that population. Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially accepted, legal, professions, which is something I disagree with. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 06:31:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:31:57 -0400 Subject: CATCH AND RELEASE (1997) Alaskan glossary Message-ID: CATCH AND RELEASE: THE INSIDERS' GUIDE TO ALASKA MEN by Jane Haigh, Kelley Hegarty-Lammers, and Patricia Walsh 138 pages, paperback, $12.95 Fairbanks: Hillside Press 1997 A book by Alaskan women about Alaskan men is not ordinarily my cup of tea (the ratio is the worst in the country for heterosexual men). However, this book has been called "the funniest book about Alaska in years" and it has a nice glossary that you'd probably miss. Pg. 126: glossary: need-to-know Alaska terms A-List; AFN--Alaska Federation of Natives; Alaska Time--Late; ANCSA; ANWR; ARCO; ATCO UNITS--Portable housing; Bailing wire; Beards; Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck...: BP Pg. 127: Break-up--When the ice on the rivers cracks...; Break-up boots; Boomer; Brooks Range; Bunny boots; Bush; Bush rat; Bush teacher; Cabin fever; Carabiner; Cat--A bulldozer; Chains; CHeechako; Chinook; Chum--A Dog Salmon; Coho-A SIlver Salmon Pg. 128: Cleanup; Commitment--Not present in the Alaska Man's vocabulary; Components; COnservationist; Cord; Crude; D-10; D-8 Pg. 129: DADS; Denali; Dividend Check; Dog Lot; DOuble Wall; Duck widow--An Alaska woman left at home while her guy is out duck hunting; Duct tape; Equinox; Exxon Valdez; Fish wheel; Fixer-upper; Five-eights--A forty-hour work week, five eight-hour days; Four-by-four; Four wheeler Pg. 130: Freeze-up; Frost heave; Fur Rendezvous; Gates, The; Gee; Gill-net; Gold pan; Gold pan painting; Grateful Dead; Grizzly; Handyman Special; Harness; Haul Road, The; Haw; Hazelwood, Joe; Headbolt heater; Homesteading Pg. 131: Honey bucket; Hot springs; Humpie--A Pink Salmon; Hundred-mile-an-hour-tape--Duct tape. It keeps his airplane together while going 100mph; Ice fog; Iditarod; Jay--Jay Hammond, ex-governor; Jerry-rig; Job; Jumping a trap line; Jumping a claim; King--King Salmon, see Chinook; Klondike; Libby; Libertarian; Loader; Longevity bonus; Lottery land Pg. 132: Lower 48; Mary; Midnight sun; Minute--Alaskan definition of eternity; Moose nuggets; Mukluks; Mush; Nordstroms--Alaskan for shopping; North, Up Pg. 133: North Slope; Nuggets, moose; Nuggets, gold; Okies; Opening; Operator; ORV--Off road vehicle; Out house; Outside; Panning; Parka; Permafrost; Permanent Fund; Pink--A variety of salmon; Pioneer; Pioneer's Home; Pipeline, the; Pipeline widow Pg. 134: Pipeliner; Placer mining; Plug-in; Pom-pom--...used to clean up the Valdez oil spill...; Quonset hut; R and R; Real House--The kind with plumbing, bedroom doors, and a dishwasher; Red Dog; Refrigerwear--Insulated coveralls; Rocking out the car; Ruff; RV; SAD--Seasonal Affective Disorder; Sauna Pg. 135: Seasonal; Seasons--May, June, July, August and winter; Set-net; 798-ers; Seven-twelves--Working hours consisting of twelves hours a day, seven days a week; Sex; Shoe-pacs; SHort call; Sierra clubber; Skating; Slope, the; Snagging; Snow-go--A snow machine; Snowbird; Sockeye--A Red Salmon; Solstice Pg. 136: Sorels--A trade name for shoe pacs; Sourdough; Southeast Sneaker--Goodyear knee-high rubber boots; Spawn-till-you-die--Famous Alaska motto; Spenard Divorce--Finalized when one of the spouses gets shot; Steve; Subsistence; Sun-dog; SUperinsulated; Susan Butcher; Tailings; Termination dust; The Big One--Denali, Mt. McKinley; THree wheeler; Tony; Trapline chatter; Trolling; Up North; Vacation Pg. 137: VECO; Visqueen--Polyethylene plastic sheeting; Wally; Wally World--Virtual reality; Week-on-week-off; Wind chill; Winter; Yukon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 06:33:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:33:12 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Jul 3 08:46:27 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 04:46:27 -0400 Subject: Route: spelling and pronunciation [and IPA vs. Orthographic respellings] Message-ID: Does this have anything to do with civilization? I have always made the distinction. But I don't think I am more civilized than those who don't. When I said "normal," I was thinking of what I hear around me which is getting more complicated because by the latest count there are more immigrants like me than natives in the Toronto area. Sorry about the confusion. I guess we are all more or less normal. TOM. Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > #>Well, the long answer below, which admits that "cot" and "caught" > #>are only rarely distinguished, speaks for itself. All civilized > #>speakers make the distinction. > > I hope you're talking about Tom's text, not mine! > > -- Mark M. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Jul 3 09:11:38 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:11:38 -0700 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: Here's a question for the true Southerners on our list, sent to me by a former Alabaman: This one's a purely non-official question. At dinner tonight Pat and I were discussing whether the word "grits" is singular or plural (guess what I was having with my omelette). One says, "Grits are tasty," but does one use "number" or "amount" when referring to grits? Hmm. Or does it matter? Rudy From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 3 10:08:59 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:08:59 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| Here's a question for the true Southerners on our list, sent to me by a |o| former Alabaman: I can see why she's a former Alabaman. I don't know who taught her her manners because she should have learned this as a child as part of her Southern survival skills. Said with the wrong inflection, grit, in the singular, would get a person shot down south. But grits is grits, girl, in any amount of you can manage to spoon out of the bowl and onto your plate. Cheese grits with a splash of Tabasco green sauce for breakfast; Ham, grits and red-eye gravy for lunch; & Fried Chicken and greens with grits fried in pot likker for dinner. Add a side of fried pickles to make dinner really special if company's coming. rhk From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 12:21:36 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:21:36 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >what I was having with my omelette). One says, "Grits are tasty," but does >one use "number" or "amount" when referring to grits? Hmm. Or does it matter? Grits are one of my favorite foods. Bethany Texan From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 3 13:09:39 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:09:39 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: O.K., which do you prefer, the transitive "he sexual intercoursed her" or the intransitive "we were sexual intercoursing"? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 9:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: the oldest surviving slang What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda formal equivalent of 'fuck.' dInIs > "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent, >although it's arguably slang when used as an intensified form of >"damn." From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 13:37:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:37:44 EDT Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:34:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted > here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. The Making of America database, periodicals section, (it's from the University of Michigan rather than being restricted to Michigan periodicals) has three hits from the 1850's on "face the music." Two involve the Mexican War (not the Spanish-American War, which was 1898). One is metaphorical: in a description of the Battle of Buena Vista, the soldiers "face the music of war". The other is political: someone writing about the start of the war says to "face the music - tell the truth". The third is nautical---the writer (definitely not a 21st Century type!) is defending the practice of flogging. The writer attacks the alternative, imprisonment in the brig on a bread-and-water diet, as unhealthy and says that ships' medical officers must "force the legislators to face the music" on the drawbacks of shipboard imprisonment. Conclusion: "face the music" was a cliche by the early 1850's, and the MOA periodicals database offers no clue how or where or when the phrase originated. Now for a suggestion: in the US Army, soldiers literally "face the music". At 1700 hours on every Army post there is a ceremony called "Retreat", which has nothing to do with losing a battle but rather is the daily flag-lowering ceremony. It consists of three parts: first the bugle call "Retreat", then a cannon is fired, then the bugle call "To The Colors", during which the flag is lowered. If you are a soldier and you are outdoors when the first notes of "Retreat" are sounded, then you come to attention, facing the flag if you can see it, otherwise facing the source of the music (which in practice means facing the nearest PA speaker.) My suggestion is that in some English-speaking Army (the British Army with its bagpipers is a strong possibility) there was a situation in which soldiers were in a state of danger and had orders to face the music, or more exactly, the musicians. Two possibilities: an 18th Century army might have bagpipers or other musicians who led an advance towards the enemy, or a court-martial might have a drummer whom the accused had to face. - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 13:53:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:53:54 EDT Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: Referring to the food, "grits" is a mass noun. So are "hominy" and the redundant phrase "hominy grits". (Grits is ground hominy.) For Lois McMaster Bujold fans, "groats" is also a mass noun. According to MWCD10, groats are ground coarser than grits and are not necessarily from hominy. >From the Order of the Turtle: "Four letters, last two are "i-t", commonly found in barnyards, and some people say Winston Churchill was full of it. What is it?" "grit" is used as a mass noun to mean a quantity of abrasive particulars. If you are referring to several different grades of such abrasives (as would an archeologist discussing potsherds), then you would say "grits" as a count noun. "grit" meaning "firmness of mind or spirit" is a mass noun. I cannot think of a plausible context in which one could speak of the "grits" or two or more persons. - Jim Landau From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Wed Jul 3 14:07:27 2002 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:07:27 -0400 Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: The fellow who coined the term "telecommuting" in 1973 has told me that in the early 80s he started using the word "telework," instead, because most European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? Paul From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 3 14:18:39 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:18:39 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <164.10257f8c.2a545bf2@aol.com> Message-ID: - Jim Landau writes: >For Lois McMaster Bujold fans, "groats" is also a mass noun. According to >MWCD10, groats are ground coarser than grits and are not necessarily from >hominy. ~~~~~~ I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in buckwheat groats or oat groats. I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:18:03 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:18:03 EDT Subject: CATCH AND RELEASE (1997) Alaskan glossary Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:32:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck Is the phrase "semi-truck" actually used in Alaska? The prime mover of a semi-trailer rig is, in trucker's jargon, a "tractor", hence the phrase "tractor-trailer". A "semi-trailer" is (MWCD10) "a freight trailer that when attached is supported at its forward end by the fifth wheel device of the truck tractor". >From context a "semi-truck" would be a truck equipped with a fifth wheel for pulling a semi-trailer, but it's a new one on me. Another error in "Belly dump--A type of dump truck pulled by a semi-truck" is that a dump truck, whether rigid-chassis or tractor-trailer, is a self-propelled vehicle. The writer obviously meant a semi-trailer with retractable openings on its bottom for dumping aggregate or other bulk material. Whoever the writer is, she is obviously neither a construction worker nor married to one. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:28:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:28:19 EDT Subject: Grits: singular or plural? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in > buckwheat groats or oat groats. I should have looked at the M-W definition more closely. "1. hulled grain broken into fragments larger than grits 2. a grain (as of oats) exclusive of the hull" > I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one > particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip coffeemaker. Seriously, "grounds" is an interesting mass-vs-count example. A grounds-keeper usually is only employed for one ground(s)? A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds? "I own ground in the Poconos" but "my grounds in the Poconos. And the ethnic joke about a divorce case: Q. Do you have grounds? A. About two acres. - Jim Landau From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 3 14:36:25 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:36:25 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: Another example of facing the music (celestial choir?). Apparently, in some areas it was the custom to face a choir, while singing. >From MOA-Michigan -- George Winfred Hervey, 1856. The Principles of Courtesy: With Hints and Observations on Manners and Habits, p.141. [A discussion of the practice of facing the choir, while it is singing, but it is less than clear (on following pages) that the author is an advocate of the practice of the worshipers facing the choir.] http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=d2afa32c8cdcefc68bc996a44741bae0;q1=face%20the%20choir;idno=AJF2358.0001.001;view=image;seq=0141 ============= William Taylor, 1859. Seven Years' Street Preaching in San Francisco, California; Embracing Incidents, Triumphant Death Scenes, etc., p.128. "... and I and my wife always went in (to church) just as the congregation turned to face the choir...." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=d2afa32c8cdcefc68bc996a44741bae0;q1=face%20the%20choir;idno=AJG9120.0001.001;view=image;seq=0136 =============== George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 14:36:24 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:36:24 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lists at MCFEDRIES.COM writes: > most > European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the > sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems > surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language > for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? I don't know if this is correct, but I once read in a railroad magazine that this sense of "commute" comes from the practice of issuing "commutation tickets", this being the term for multi-ride tickets issued at a discount. In case you're interested, the word "commutative" is from Aristotle. "Commutative property" was introduced, in French, by Fran?ois Joseph Servois in 1814. - James A. Landau From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 3 14:31:40 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:31:40 -0500 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: I believe two parts of what James Landau writes can fit nicely together: 1) the MOA attestation of "face the music of war": "Battle of Buena Vista," in _Southern Quarterly Review_, vol. 3, issue 5, 1851, pp.146-189. Page 171 contains: "Before these dispositions were completed, the Mexicans made their appearance--halted beyond the range of our fire--perceived our resolution to face the music of war--and prepared at once for the conflict." 2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, fifes, bagpipes, whatever. So "face the music (of war)" and "bite the bullet" (Civil War soldier about to be operated on without anesthesia and given only a soft-lead bullet to bite) seem to be two expressions that spread beyond their original military context to the more general one of: prepare to face or do something very unpleasant. Gerald Cohen >At 9:37 AM -0400 7/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 2:34:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > >> "Face the Music" is from the Spanish American War (1840s). As I posted >> here before, it's in the Making of America (Michigan periodicals) database. > >The Making of America database, periodicals section, (it's from the >University of Michigan rather than being restricted to Michigan periodicals) >has three hits from the 1850's on "face the music." Two involve the Mexican >War (not the Spanish-American War, which was 1898). One is metaphorical: in >a description of the Battle of Buena Vista, the soldiers "face the music of >war". [snip] >Conclusion: "face the music" was a cliche by the early 1850's, and the MOA >periodicals database offers no clue how or where or when the phrase >originated. > >Now for a suggestion:[snip] > >My suggestion is that in some English-speaking Army (the British Army with >its bagpipers is a strong possibility) there was a situation in which >soldiers were in a state of danger and had orders to face the music, or more >exactly, the musicians. Two possibilities: an 18th Century army might have >bagpipers or other musicians who led an advance towards the enemy, or a >court-martial might have a drummer whom the accused had to face. > > - James A. Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 3 15:11:55 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:11:55 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <135.10ba7a95.2a546403@aol.com> Message-ID: >Jim Landau writes: >> I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one >> particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! > >A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip >coffeemaker. ~~~~~~~ Ah, thus speaketh a man who takes his running h & c for granted. Sagacity in our case dictates the much simpler method of putting boiling water and ground coffee into a (glazed porcelain) beaker, stirring and waiting for the grounds to settle (chivvied along by a little judicious spoon work) before dispensing into cups. Makes both better coffee and for much less washing up. >A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds?< He could be making his grounds rounds even without a pistol. A. Murie From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 3 15:09:28 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:09:28 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, >fifes, bagpipes, whatever. Whatever indeed! RHHDAS gives "music" = "gunfire", with examples from 1864, 1865, 1927, 1940. RHHDAS also gives the earlier sense of "face the music" as "face danger or hardship": I guess facing gunfire would fill the bill. Another speculation is that the music faced is the music played to accompany a military punishment or "dishonorable discharge" in the 'old days'. I don't know whether this is legitimate or not. -- Doug Wilson From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Jul 3 15:38:27 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:38:27 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: Relative to recent list discussions about slang, from MOA -- Michigan, a notation that "faces the music" is a slang phrase, in: A commentary about The Works of William Shakespeare...., 1861-71, p.XXXVII. "The bully rock is the man who does not give ground, who, in our slang phrase 'faces the music'." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;sid=afd3938a6ca512ee403a680992ca3e9d;q1=faces%20the%20music;idno=ABA6862.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000041 George Cole Shippensburg University From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 15:38:59 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:38:59 -0500 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703110232.00ab6880@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: on 7/3/02 10:09 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> 2) facing the music of an advancing army (in an attack)--drums, >> fifes, bagpipes, whatever. > > Whatever indeed! > > RHHDAS gives "music" = "gunfire", with examples from 1864, 1865, 1927, 1940. > > RHHDAS also gives the earlier sense of "face the music" as "face danger or > hardship": I guess facing gunfire would fill the bill. > > Another speculation is that the music faced is the music played to > accompany a military punishment or "dishonorable discharge" in the 'old > days'. I don't know whether this is legitimate or not. > > -- Doug Wilson > My own folk etymology for 'face the music' has always been facing the trumpets that announce the impending volley of bullets in an execution ceremony. DMLance From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Jul 3 15:48:15 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:48:15 -0400 Subject: Two queries: "for good"; "face the music" Message-ID: Good questions! I have always thought that the derivation of meanings is more important for English users than the development of forms as in comparative philology. American Heritage, thanks to Wm Morris, perhaps contains more meaningful etymologies than the competition, although I treasure it mostly for its IE roots. I wish some day some lexicographer would write a complete dictionary doing justice to this aspect of words. Maybe there are already dictionaries of this kind in existence that I don't know of. A couple of such titles may provide the answer to this query. TOM PAIKEDAY The User's? Webster www3.sympatico.ca/t.paikeday/index.htm (in preparation) Gerald Cohen wrote: > > A colleague has sent two queries my way: > > (1) Why do we say "for good" (= forever), as in: "He left California for good"? > > (2) Why do we say "face the music"? What was the original reference here? > > Would anyone have any ideas? > > Gerald Cohen From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Jul 3 15:54:32 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:54:32 +0100 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: Two other proposed etymologies: 1872 Schele De Vere _Americanisms_ 601: _Face the music, to_, a slang phrase, derived, according to J. F. Cooper, from the stage, and used by actors in the green-room, when they are nervously preparing to go on the boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces it back to militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully equipped and armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 3 16:04:28 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:04:28 -0400 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" In-Reply-To: <001501c222a9$ed5a7120$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: |o| boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces |o| it back to |o| militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully |o| equipped and |o| armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. |o| But none of the modern military usages carry the sense of 1. inevitability and 2. dread usually associated with modern meanings. I was thinking that William Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Mariner (1780) would shed some light on this when he talks about punishment and courts martial at sea in the British Navy, but nothing so far. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:32:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:32:44 EDT Subject: Non-native English? Message-ID: In a message dated 6/28/02 9:59:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > "Do NOT open the file. "IE" stands for "Internet Explorer", and NOBODY would > send out patches for IE unsolicitated. " > > I was intrigued by "unsolicitated" where I would have 'unsolicited'. A quick > google search suggests 'unsolicitate' is fairly common especially in this > context of spamming. > Is this another specialized usage for a backformation like commentate (cf. > comment)? Why I managed to type "unsolicitated" for "unsolicited" I don't know. It is not a formation that I ever use (except, apparently, when typing in a hurry.) In a message dated 7/3/02 10:02:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, I wrote: > "grit" is used as a mass noun to mean a quantity of abrasive particulars. Granted there have been messages on ADS-L that included abrasive particulars, but I meant to write "abrasive particles". - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:34:33 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:34:33 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: Here is the entry for 1865 from _America in So Many Words_ by Allan Metcalf and David Barnhart (Houghton Mifflin, repr. 1999): Americans did not invent the suburbs, but they did create the commuter--someone who shuttles from a home in the suburbs to a job in the city and back again every day. Residing at a considerable distance from work was made possible by the invention of the railroad, and the name for this kind of person was made possible by the invention in the 1840s of a ticket good for multiple rides, the commutation ticket. Here commutation means an exchange of one thing for another, especially if the new thing is a consolidation or reduction of the old. That is what the commutation ticket did: it exchanged individual tickets for a collective one at a lower price. The holder of such a ticket, being involved in the commutation, was thus called a commuter. Here is the Atlantic Monthly writing about railroads in 1865: "Two or three may be styled commuters' roads, running chiefly for the accommodation of city business-men with suburban residences." In that statement we already see the modern sense of commuter, connected with a lifestyle rather than a kind of ticket. Soon it no longer made a difference whether the person held a commutation ticket, only where the person lived and worked. A commuter could ride a trolley, subway, cable car, or ferry as well as a train. In the twentieth century the commuter turned to the bus and automobile. While public transportation still carried commuters, the modern image of the commuter has become the lone driver on the freeway (1930) or expressway (1944) or interstate (1968), enduring gapers' blocks and gridlock (1980), talking on a cell phone (1984) to drive-time talk radio (1985). From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 3 16:32:19 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:32:19 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a particular term for switching a regular verb form to irregular? How bought the other way around ? [Which would make more sense to me.] So two president's in a row - last one said "swole" this one here comes up with "drug." Am I correct in guessing its a Southern thing? (Both words with an early history - the original form maybe?) Any more common examples? He's written on this before, with Clinton's swole - but he wants to jump on Bush's drug with a fresh take and new knowledge. Thanks, Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From kkmetron at COX.NET Wed Jul 3 19:51:45 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:51:45 -0700 Subject: "face the music" from "face the music of war" Message-ID: As an oblique sideline to the topic: 'A Dictionary of the Underworld', Eric Partridge, 1968. _music_, as money or other booty delivered perforce to a thief (esp. to a highwayman), is recorded as early as in 'The Widdow', by Jonson, Fletcher & Middleton, pub. in 1652 but written ca. 1616, for there a highwayman says, 'You must pay your Musick, sir | Where ere you come'; in C. 18-19, it survived only as an element in 'the music's paid'. _music's paid, the_. (Cf. preceding entry.) B.E., 1698, 'The Musick's paid, c. the Watch-word among High-way-men, to let the Company they were to rob, alone, in return to some Courtesy from some Gentlemen among them'--repeated in A New Canting Dict., 1725; another early example occurs at p. 21 of Anon., 'The Jacobite Robber', 1693; 1785, Grose, who implies that, by his time, it had been shortened to 'music'; app. + [apparently obsolete] by 1860 Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick H Kennerly To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:04 AM Subject: Re: "face the music" from "face the music of war" |o| boards and literally face the music. Another explanation traces |o| it back to |o| militia musters, where every man is expected to appear fully |o| equipped and |o| armed, when in rank and file, _facing the music_. |o| But none of the modern military usages carry the sense of 1. inevitability and 2. dread usually associated with modern meanings. I was thinking that William Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Mariner (1780) would shed some light on this when he talks about punishment and courts martial at sea in the British Navy, but nothing so far. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 16:58:53 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:58:53 EDT Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 12:35:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, millerk at NYTIMES.COM writes: > Is there a particular term for switching a regular verb form to irregular? > How bought the other way around ? [Which would make more sense to me.] An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term "strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend "irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. "swole" as past of "swell" could be due to the past participle "swollen". I've never heard it, though. "drug" as past of "drag" is common, enough so that it is in Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate, page 355 col 2 as "dial past of DRAG". It is rather odd, though, because there are other verbs in English of the form -ag (bag, brag, fag (out), flag, gag, lag, nag, rag, sag, snag, shag (a fly ball), tag, wag, etc.) but nobody ever brug about his adventures, snug her socks, got nug by his mother-in-law, or wug a dog. Most other incorrect irregulars have obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by analogy with "blew". - James A. Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 17:50:05 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:50:05 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: <135.10ba7a95.2a546403@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0400 7/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 10:18:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > >> I think "groats" usually refers to hulled, but not ground, grains, as in >> buckwheat groats or oat groats. > >I should have looked at the M-W definition more closely. "1. hulled grain >broken into fragments larger than grits 2. a grain (as of oats) exclusive of >the hull" > The fact that "groats" are a bit like "grits" only bigger is a nice feather in the cap of sound symbolism. (It would never be the other way around, right?) My association with "groats" is kasha, a.k.a. buckwheat groats, which however is a mass singular as opposed to a mass plural (like grits and groats). Good stuff, although more for slightly cooler weather than we're having lately. larry From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Wed Jul 3 18:33:37 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:33:37 +0100 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: A long time ago, we had a discussion about whether people tend to avoid calling people 'Jews' and instead prefer 'Jewish' (and whether this might be a non-Jewish approach to the words). I'm now doing some work on (non-metaphorical) meanings of 'Jew(ish)'--i.e. who counts as a Jew to English speakers from within and without Jewish communities, whether 'Jewish' can be used to refer to people who aren't 'Jews', etc. If anyone knows of any discussions of this in print/electrons (not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' that are currently used. Thanks, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 18:37:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:37:18 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <1418679.3234713617@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: #(not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested #to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' #that are currently used. I'm Jewish, and I had heard *of* self-referential "MOT"*, standing for "member of the tribe", but I had never heard it and thought it was obsolete till just this past week, when another Jew used it to me. * /'Em,o:'ti:/, not /'mat/. -- Mark A. Mandel From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 18:50:02 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:02 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: > >#(not necessarily by linguists), could you let me know? I'm also interested >#to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' >#that are currently used. > >I'm Jewish, and I had heard *of* self-referential "MOT"*, standing for >"member of the tribe", but I had never heard it and thought it was >obsolete till just this past week, when another Jew used it to me. > First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. Alice From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 18:56:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits Message-ID: Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the official food somewhere (Georgia?). STOUP--Any hits for "stoup" (stew soup)? ALASKA'S COOKING, VOLUME II. Anchorage Woman's Club (1988), pg. 28, has "Hearty 'Stoup'" of onion, hot chili, Texas barbecued beans, beef broth, and tomato soup. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 19:05:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:05:24 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: #First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are #more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and 60s. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 19:06:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:54 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <70A7E229.35B5FE96.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the #official food somewhere (Georgia?). Official PROCESSED food. Whoever was saying it, from I don't remember what state either, was explicit that it wasn't displacing any of the other forty-'leven Official State Thingies of that state. -- Mark A. Mandel From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 19:11:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:11:48 EDT Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 2:33:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes: > I'm also interested > to know any non-derogatory and self-referential synonyms for 'Jew(ish)' > that are currently used. My father told me that in World War II his "dog-tags" (a form of ID used for US soldiers) had an "H" for "Hebrew" rather than "J" for "Jewish". "Hebrew" is still sometimes used to mean Jewish, although not as much now as in the 19th century. Note the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (the lay group to which Reform Jewish congregations in the USA belong), which was founded around 1875 (I don't have the exact date handy). I seem to recall that Lederer, in his book "Ensign O'Toole and Me" (early 50's?) referred to O'Toole's "half-Hebrew heart" (O'Toole's mother was Jewish). Offhand I can't think of any more recent examples. This use of "Hebrew" was long ago common in the Reform movement, which in its earlier days had a good deal of assimilationism. However, I believe there is a Christian sect called the "Hebrews", which could confuse things. Concensus is that the first appearance of Reform Judaism in the US was around 1824 with the "Reformed Society of Israelites" in South Carolina. As far as I know, there are no Christians who call themselves "Israelites". Solomon Schechter, who headed the Jewish Theological Seminary at the beginning of the 20th Century, liked to refer to "Catholic Israel", which I think is a misleading translation of a Hebrew phrase meaning "the community of Israel". The Making of America database has: Confirmant's guide to the Mosaic religion. By E. Eppstein. iv, 55, [1] p. 22cm. Detroit, Mich., F. A. Schober & bro., 1868. which manages to be a Jewish catechism without once using the word "Jewish". You could use "Semite" although that term includes Arabs. Similarly you could use "circumcized" although Moslem men are also circumcized. There is a major Jewish organization in the US called "B'nai B'rith". That name can be translated as "Sons of the Circumcision." A slang term, little known to Gentiles: "MOT" (acronym for "Member Of the Tribe") If you want to be obscure: "Jeshurun". The phrase "half-Jewish" is rather strange. How can someone be half a member of a religion? Therefore it must be a term for someone of mixed-race, comparable to "mulatto" or "mestizo". It bothered me in 1964 that Barry Goldwater was frequently described as "half-Jewish" yet never as "half-Episcopalian". I once heard a Hebrew-language prayer for peace in the Mideast that referred to "the children of Isaac" and "the children of Ishmael". - James A. Landau (Yehoshuah Eliyachu ben Yosef) P.S. Warning: "Messianic Jews" are NOT Jewish. They are a particularly obnoxious bunch of Christian missionaries. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:13:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:13:54 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:05 PM -0400 7/3/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > >#First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are >#more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. > >Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and >60s. Me too, but somewhat earlier and further south (NYC, Long Island; late '40's/50's), yet I don't have "M.O.T." natively, or anything equally colorful. Sorry. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:15:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:15:22 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <70A7E229.35B5FE96.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:56 PM -0400 7/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. > >GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the >official food somewhere (Georgia?). > I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits is now the official food somewhere. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:25:34 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:25:34 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > >#First thing that came to my mind as well. Of course, Mark and I are >#more or less the same age and from more or less the same milieu. > >Namely (on my part): grew up in Westchester, then NYC, in the 50s and >60s. Ditto on the Westchester and 50s/60s. But a lot of my undergraduate friends were from New York City, and I think I first heard the MOT (in full and initialized form, both) from them. Alice From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 19:50:51 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: y'all Message-ID: E D I T O R ' S N O T E B O O K Saving Y'all The Alcalde July/August 2002, p. 10 (alumni magazine of the University of Texas, Austin) >From this office, you can hear a linguistic and cultural death rattle. You can hear it in the classrooms, at the shuttle bus stops. "You guys know where this stops?" You can hear it in the bookstores and restaurants that encircle campus. "You guys know what you want to order yet?" I'm speaking, of course, about the impending death of the expression "y'all" at the hands of the address "you guys," like an aggressive exotic species supplanting a native one. Some of my friends and even my wife refuse to become alarmed at this, and so I must now use this platform to call on all good Texas Exes everywhere to save the expression "y'all." "Y'all" is as integral to the Texas experience as Dr Pepper and Dallas Cowboy arrests. Texas life just wouldn't be the same without it. We get worked up (rightly) over the disappearance of obscure lizards and birds, but without a champion, the priceless cultural gem that is "y'all" may be extinct by the time this reaches your mailbox. Older alumni will be incredulous that such a time-honored expression could indeed be on the way out. To those I say, come to campus. Shop at the Gap at Guadalupe and 24th, place an order at the Wendy's in the Union. Hear for yourself. Let's first dispense with the nonsense that there is something substandard or wrong with the expression "y'all." As a contraction of "you all," it is, at worst, somewhat redundant, in that "you" suffices as plural. But it is no more redundant than "you guys" and is leaps and bounds more correct than its Northern counterpart "yous," which is simply beneath contempt. And how wrong can it be if it has made the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, which states, "The single most famous feature of Southern United States dialects is the pronoun y'all, sometimes heard in its variant you-all. You-all functions with perfect grammatical regularity as a second person plural pronoun, taking its own possessive you-all's (or less frequently, your-all's, where both parts of the word are inflected for possession): You-all's voices sound alike." Normally, the evolution of expressions favors shorter and shorter incarnations, a phenomenon that could be called the KFC-ification of language. But here, we go from the one-syllable "y'all" to the multiple-syllable "You guys." Also, nowhere in "y'all" is there the slightest hint of sexism, as with "you guys." We can't refer to God as "Him" anymore, but it seems we can call all of humankind "guys." Curiously, even as it is passing out of favor with the mainstream, it is gaining popularity within the "hip hop" dialect, as in "'sup, y'all?" This fact, however, does not seem to soothe me. So much of hip hop must now be bleeped out that "y'all" may become permanently associated with pottymouthed performers. of course, the one sure way to bring it back is for broadcasters to start bleeping it. (Note to self: Write FCC.) Now then, as with anything good, we must guard against overindulgence. As educated people, I say we must steer well clear of the possessive form alluded to earlier, "y'all's." One local waiter asked me a while back, "Y'all want y'all's teas now or with y'all's food?" Such overzealousness is unseemly and gives fodder to our enemies. Yet as grammatically indefensible as that is, it has a certain colloquial charm. This has been replaced with: "You guys want you guys's teas ... ?" And think of the cultural staples that would pass away with it should we lose this linguistic gem. There are holiday classics, like "Merry Christmas to y'all, and to y'all a good night." Or words of the Bard like: "This was the noblest Roman of them, y'all." To those who would mindlessly replace our beloved second-person pronoun, John Donne rebuked you best, when he wrote "Do not ask for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for y'all." I'm counting on each of y'all to do your part to keep our language genteel an enshrine this slice of Texan, for all time. The Eyes o Texas are upon y'all. -Avrel Seale From stevekl at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 3 19:56:36 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:56:36 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at > least there used to be, in American gay lingo. > > Is that still current? I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that way in a queer context. -- Steve Kl. From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 3 20:48:58 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:48:58 -0700 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>I can't identify the > >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way > to determine > what > >>terms are used within and without that population. > > Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't > exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but > a good amount of > work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that > population. Maybe you're right. You probably can identify a core group that is actively involved in a "culture of marijuana." There are groups like NORML and hemp advocates and at every high school you can readily identify the stoners. I guess my problem is that there are so many others who are peripherally associated with the pot-smoking "culture" that the boundaries of the group are vague. > Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially > accepted, legal, > professions, which is something I disagree with. No, I didn't mean to imply that at all. Clearly groups like the Mafia have a jargon, "soldier," "family," "made guy." Ditto for narcotics smugglers with words like "mule." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 3 21:06:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:06:11 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <192.944d1da.2a54874d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably #because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term #"strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend #"irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the past tense and/or the past participle: drink/drank/drunk sing/sang/sung fly/flew/flown ride/rode/ridden think/thought/thought I think there are seven classes of these. "Drig/drag/drug" seems to be imitating the class of "drink/drank/drunk", which iirc is historically inaccurate because the verbs of this class all end in "ing" or "ink" in the present tense. Not that historical accuracy is of any relevance here! The other funny thing about "drig/drag/drug" is that it changes the present tense; it was a joke, yes? There are real "neo-strong" forms, like "dove" (past of "dive") and "shat" (past/pp of "shit"), but I've never heard of changing the stem in the present tense. Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: walk/walked/walked "Have" and "go" are irregular: have/had/had go/went/gone IIRC, the past tense "went" was suppletive, originally from the now-obsolete verb "wend", which when used at all is conjugated weakly: wend/wended/wended If I were at home I would have appropriate reference material from which to flood you with accurate data, but I would also be undergoing physical and mental meltdown in the brutal heat we're having in the Northeast. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 3 21:11:30 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:11:30 -0400 Subject: FW: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: What Dennis and Bethany say below is a perfect lead-in to something I have been wondering about for a long time: >> On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >What does 'sexual intercourse' mean? I always took it to be the kinda >formal equivalent of 'fuck.' Ask Bill. Bethany << When Pres. Clinton said, during a press conference, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky," his choice of words struck me as very peculiar. It seemed to me that the sentence was much too exact. Figuring he and his staff had carefully prepared the wording of the statement, I wondered whether there was some lawyerly motivation. I betook myself to the MW3 Unabridged, which (as I understand it) is taken as definitive for American English in US courts of law. Sure enough, "sexual relations" is defined as 'coitus'. So Clinton was telling the truth, if the later findings of the Starr report are to be believed -- no coitus, just oral sex. But if he had said "sex", he would have been lying, by the common understanding of the term. MW3 def of coitus: "physical union of male and female genitalia accompanied by rhythmic movements leading to the ejaculation of semen from the penis into the female reproductive tract; also : INTERCOURSE 3 ? compare ORGASM" whereas the MW3 sense 3 of "sex" is: "3 : the sphere of interpersonal behavior especially between male and female most directly associated with, leading up to, substituting for, or resulting from genital union *agree that the Christian's attitude toward sex should not be considered apart from love, marriage, family? M.M.Forney*" The phrase "substituting for" would have made Clinton a liar, in the eyes of most (including lawyers). While we're on the subject, I must share with you all the sense 2 of "sex" in MW3. Please note the technical precision (dare I say preciosity) and absolute unsexiness: "2 : the sum of the morphological, physiological, and behavioral peculiarities of living beings that subserves biparental reproduction with its concomitant genetic segregation and recombination which underlie most evolutionary change, that in its typical dichotomous occurrence is usually genetically controlled and associated with special sex chromosomes, and that is typically manifested as maleness and femaleness with one or the other of these being present in most higher animals though both may occur in the same individual in many plants and some invertebrates and though no such distinctions can be made in many lower forms (as some fungi, protozoans, and possibly bacteria and viruses) either because males and females are replaced by mating types or because the participants in sexual reproduction are indistinguishable" Frank Abate From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:11:56 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:11:56 -0500 Subject: language Message-ID: Another item from the alumni magazine of the University of Texas. No context given for the quotation. DMLance ---------------- JUST PASSING THROUGH JAMES EARL JONES 4/23 'Language is itself the shaper of ideas. I always suspected a distinctive culture cannot exist, cannot persist without a distinctive language. ... As citizens in a fast-growing global culture, we face a cultural frontier. ... As the world shrinks, our need for cultural sensitivity expands.' Hosted By: The Texas Union Distinguished Speakers Committee From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:31:16 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:31:16 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, July 3, 2002 5:06 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the > Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the > past tense and/or the past participle: > > drink/drank/drunk > sing/sang/sung > > fly/flew/flown > > ride/rode/ridden > > think/thought/thought > > Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending > "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: > > walk/walked/walked > > Technically, think/thought/thought isn't actually a strong verb, but an irregular weak one. It has the dental ending, even if it's spelled with a t instead of a d. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 3 21:57:18 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:57:18 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <8f.1e64f569.2a54a674@aol.com> Message-ID: My father (a gentile) worked as a lifeguard at the Jewish Community Center in Des Moines in his late teens or early 20s. He once heard one of his younger charges mutter to another one, "What's HE doin' here? He ain't no Hebe!" I always assumed this was a normal self-reference among Jewish youth at that time and place, but I suppose it could have been an appropriation of a derogatory term used by gentiles at the time. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, July 3, 2002 3:11 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > My father told me that in World War II his "dog-tags" (a form of ID used > for US soldiers) had an "H" for "Hebrew" rather than "J" for "Jewish". > > "Hebrew" is still sometimes used to mean Jewish, although not as much now > as in the 19th century. Note the Union of American Hebrew Congregations > (the lay group to which Reform Jewish congregations in the USA belong), > which was founded around 1875 (I don't have the exact date handy). **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:25:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:25:38 EDT Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: >From the Jewish Encyclopedia, volume VII (1904), page 174 article "JEW (The Word)": ...In [post-Biblical] usage the word is often applied to any person of the Hebrew race, apart from his religious creed. At one time during the emancipation era there was a tendency among Jews to avoid the application of the term to themselves; and from 1860 onward the words "Hebrew" and "Israelite" were employed to represent persons of Jewish faith and race, as in the titles "Alliance Israelite Universelle" and "United Hebrew Charities." At the present time [1904] the name "Jew" is being more commonly employed....Of the several terms derived from the word "Jew" the only derivations in common use are "Jewess," "Jewish," and "Jewry"; but there are several curious more or less obsolete forms, as "Jewhead" (1300), "Jewhood" (Carlyle), "Jewishness," "Jewdom," "Jewism," and "Jewship," all used for the religious system....Symbolic epithets for the Jews are: "Chosen People," "Poeple of the Book" (suposed to be derived from Mohammed, who, however, used the term "Peoples of a Book" (or Scripture) as applying equally to Jews, Christians, and Sabeans), "Peculiar People" (comp. M. K. 16b), "Israel," "Jeshurun," "Keneset Yisrael," "Dove", "The Nation", "the Race," "The Lily". Slang names, given to the Jews by their opponenets, also occur, as "Sheeny" in English, "Zit" in Russian, "Youtre" in French. Among Russian Jews a distinction is made between "Yehudi", a Jew of German origin, and "Yid," one of Russian or Lithuanian extraction. NOTES: In 1904 there was much interest in races as opposed to ethnic groups, and a number of the contributors to the JE write of Jews as a race. "Chosen People" has the problem that it is easily interpreted as an insult to Gentiles, and therefore is rarely used. (Howeer, there is a synagogue in Alaska which has a sign reading "Welcome to the Frozen Chosen"). "People of the Book" is fairly widely used, by both Jews and Gentiles "Dove"? Note that in 1904 an ethnic slur was considered to be "slang". - Jim Landau From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Jul 3 22:32:34 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:32:34 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: >I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits >is now the official food somewhere. It is the official PROCESSED food of Mississippi. Bethany From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:41:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:41:47 EDT Subject: Iceberg categories; Alaskan speak; Burger Jim Message-ID: In a message dated 07/02/2002 9:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Then, on July 6th, I fly to southern Germany, where my plane will collide > with another plane in mid-air. I have no knowledge of the accident in Switzerland that you don't, and I've never worked with European air traffic control. One controller I talked to said (based on news reports) that it looked like a "skinware" problem. "Controllers exist to prevent collisions, even when their collision avoidance software is not available. You can get used to having computers around, but controllers did their job before computers were available." Like most major accidents, this one was probably the result of a concatenation of things going wrong, followed by sheer bad luck (Do you have any idea how difficult it is for two airliners to hit each other in the vastness of the airspace over Switzerland?) Compare the Titanic, which required five separate things to go wrong, follwed by the bad luck of the ship sideswiping the iceberg at exactly the wrong distance. A few feet to one side and the Titanic would have missed the iceberg completely; a few feet to the other and it would have rammed the iceberg, after which it would have made it safely to port, bloody and literally unbowed, but safe. Since one of the ill events that led up the airplane collision was the handoff from German to Swiss air traffic control, and since you are not flying to Switzerland, you won't have to worry about incompetent Swiss controllers. I suggest you lean back in your seat and read Earnest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter". - Landau From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:42:24 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:42:24 EDT Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 3:57:15 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at > least there used to be, in American gay lingo. > > Is that still current? I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that way in a queer context. -- Steve Kl. >> To be more exact, as I recall, "clever" meant 'sexually attractive' only when used of males and then only when combined with the words "number" or "trick"--i.e., a "clever number" was a sexy guy. I can't say if it was confined only to (parts of) the South, but my guess is that it is now archaic. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:46:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:46:40 -0400 Subject: TBC; Pipeline "pig" Message-ID: Last message from Alaska. TBC--Served at Scottie's Sub. There are about 100 Google hits; not in Mariani, I don't think. It's either "Turkey, Bacon, Cheddar" or "Turkey, Bacon, Cheese." One hit was "Turkey and Bacon Club." At Scottie's, the "London Burger" is a "Canadian Bacon Burger." The "England Burger" is ham, bacon, fried egg, American and Swiss cheese. FAT MAN PANTS--Seen at the Anchorage Museum of History and Art. CANTS--Rough timbers, also from a sign at the Museum. MELITZANO SALATA--From the Museum Cafe. Roasted eggplant pate served with pita bread, Greek olives and peppers. PIPEPLINE "PIGS" The Museum doesn't buy into the acronym, I guess: "Pigs" are devices that travel through the pipeline with the oil flow to clean the pipe or check for carrosion or dents. The name "pig" comes from the squealing noise the devices sometimes make as they rub against the inside of the pipe. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Jul 3 22:49:33 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:33 EDT Subject: the oldest surviving slang Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:33:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:33:46 -0400 Subject: the oldest surviving slang In-Reply-To: <197.92fb3e4.2a54d97d@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:49 PM -0400 7/3/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> > >as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" Not in "s/he really loves to have sexual intercourse with" >as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" Not in "s/he's a good (talented, enthusiastic...) sexual intercourse" or "that poor dumb sexual intercourse never knew what hit him/her" Demand "fuck"; accept no substitutions! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:44:07 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:44:07 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <1493932.3234697038@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: >My father (a gentile) worked as a lifeguard at the Jewish Community Center >in Des Moines in his late teens or early 20s. He once heard one of his >younger charges mutter to another one, "What's HE doin' here? He ain't no >Hebe!" I always assumed this was a normal self-reference among Jewish >youth at that time and place, but I suppose it could have been an >appropriation of a derogatory term used by gentiles at the time. > >Peter Mc. > I never encountered "Hebe" growing up, anymore than "M.O.T.", and of course "Hebrew" had the opposite (euphemistic) value. But I did experience an interesting misunderstanding once in Paris, when my (very much non-Jewish, and no doubt bigoted) French landlady asked me apropos of nothing whether I was "isra?lite". Never having heard the word, I processed it as 'Israeli', and said that no, I was am?ricain. Only later did I realize she was asking (euphemistically) if I were Jewish. Not that I'm sure I'd have answered honestly even if I'd realized what she was asking me... Since then I believe I've encountered "Israelite" as a fellow-euphemism of "Hebrew" (as in "a(n) ... gentleman") to avoid referring to Jewishness directly. Possibly somewhere in "Gentleman's Agreement" or some such cultural relic. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Jul 3 23:54:19 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:54:19 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > But I did experience an interesting misunderstanding once in Paris, >when my (very much non-Jewish, and no doubt bigoted) French landlady >asked me apropos of nothing whether I was "isra?lite". Never having >heard the word, I processed it as 'Israeli', and said that no, I was >am?ricain. Only later did I realize she was asking (euphemistically) >if I were Jewish. Not that I'm sure I'd have answered honestly even >if I'd realized what she was asking me... Since then I believe I've >encountered "Israelite" as a fellow-euphemism of "Hebrew" (as in >"a(n) ... gentleman") to avoid referring to Jewishness directly. >Possibly somewhere in "Gentleman's Agreement" or some such cultural >relic. I don't remember if I've recounted this here previously, but, here goes. When I was in grad school in Texas, teaching the intro for non-majors, one of my students asked (in an appropriate context) about the status of Jew as an ethnic descriptor. She was from Houston, and non-Jewish. But her best friend was Jewish, and had been instructed by her parents that she should tell them if anyone referred to her as "a Jew". Both kids had been very puzzled by this, since after all, it would have been accurate. This provided context for me for an earlier puzzling encounter. On my first trip to Austin (apartment hunting), one one of the flights I sat next to a Texas "woman of a certain age". It really appealed to her civic pride that a New Yorker had chosen the University of Texas. When I told her that I wanted to study the history of Hebrew and related languages, she asked, among other questions, if I was an Israelite. This totally took me aback. Now there was no hint of anti-Semitism in our discussion, though it's possible she hadn't had many conversations with Jews. It seems though that she, too, had been raised to think that there was a pejorative connotation to using Jew or Jewish, and was trying to use the most polite and neutral term she could think of, where it was clearly a reasonable category to refer to. Alice From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 4 00:01:56 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:01:56 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:25:38 EDT "James A. Landau" >At one time during > the > emancipation era there was a tendency among Jews to avoid the > application of > the term to themselves; and from 1860 onward the words "Hebrew" and > "Israelite" were employed to represent persons of Jewish faith and > race Here's an aspect which hasn't been mentioned. I went to that well known college in New Haven, and after more than three decades of maundering around the world ended back in my old home town, where you must be a graduate of Dickenson to practice law and a teacher with a degree from Juniata is considered elite. When someone occasionally asks where I went to college, I usually say New Haven, I don't say Yale. I don't think I would have this reticence had I gone to Princeton or Dartmouth or Cornell. The combination of the short, almost ejaculatory word combined with the special social circumstances of the small town where I live makes it more comfortable to say New Haven rather than Yale. I suspect the same phenomenon may be operating in the Jew/Jewish/Hebrew question. Jew is harsh; the polysyllabic synonyms are softer. D From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:06:58 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:06:58 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is, indeed Georgia that has made grits the official processed food. Funny, I never thought of grits as being processed; "processed food" seemed to me to be things like spam. Bill ps. My spell-check does not recognize "spam"; "grits" is fine. At 03:15 PM 7/3/02 -0400, you wrote: >At 2:56 PM -0400 7/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> Yeah, of course I meant Mexican-American War and Michigan-Periodicals. >> >>GRITS--CNN declared that, as of July 1st, a new law says it's the >>official food somewhere (Georgia?). >I kind of like the non-specific version: As of two days ago, grits >is now the official food somewhere. > >larry From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:09:31 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:09:31 -0400 Subject: Slang vs. Jargon (An initial 4A N2...?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't we cite "convict jargon" as typical? Is being a convict socially acceptable? Bill At 11:24 PM 7/2/02 -0400, you wrote: > >>I can't identify the > >>population of marijuana smokers, therefore there is no way to determine >what > >>terms are used within and without that population. > >Why can't the population of marijuana smokers be identified? We can't >exactly determine the population of homosexuals, either, but a good amount of >work has been done concerning the terms within and without of that >population. > >Also, it seems that you're relating JARGON to only socially accepted, legal, >professions, which is something I disagree with. > >-dsb >Douglas S. Bigham >In Transition. . . From wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Jul 4 01:18:33 2002 From: wh5mith at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bill Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:18:33 -0400 Subject: Grits: singular or plural? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gambol Rogers used to speak of Floridians who spent a great deal of time figuring out how to bleach coffee grounds so that they could sell them to Yankee tourists on the interstate as grits. Bill At 11:11 AM 7/3/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Jim Landau writes: > >> I sometimes wonder about the countability of "grounds," when I get one > >> particle of ground coffee caught in a tooth! > > > >A sage hen like yourself could eliminate this question by going to a drip > >coffeemaker. >~~~~~~~ >Ah, thus speaketh a man who takes his running h & c for granted. Sagacity >in our case dictates the much simpler method of putting boiling water and >ground coffee into a (glazed porcelain) beaker, stirring and waiting for >the grounds to settle (chivvied along by a little judicious spoon work) >before dispensing into cups. Makes both better coffee and for much less >washing up. > > >A pistol-packing gardener carries grounds rounds?< >He could be making his grounds rounds even without a pistol. > >A. Murie From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Jul 4 01:24:36 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:24:36 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a long time--ancient in the 1950s. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:11:02 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:11:02 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early 1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish expressionor is also used in German. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: > I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a > long time--ancient in the 1950s. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:16:32 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:16:32 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: David Bergdahl wrote: >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >long time--ancient in the 1950s. It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a kind of self-reflexive irony. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:24:10 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:24:10 -0400 Subject: Stoup, Grits In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020703210418.00a34490@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Bill Smith wrote: >It is, indeed Georgia that has made grits the official processed >food. Funny, I never thought of grits as being processed; "processed food" >seemed to me to be things like spam. Right. I erred - Mississippi now has an official state toy - the teddy bear. Bethany From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:28:26 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:28:26 -0500 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703221523.00b02bb8@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: >David Bergdahl wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > >It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've >also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a >kind of self-reflexive irony. > > That's interesting, because I am familiar with the term "landsman", but it does not mean to me that the person referred to is Jewish. My parents were in Sofia, Bulgaria visiting the American ambassador and his wife (she was a college friend of my mother's). While they were there, there went to some embassy function and were introduced to the Ambassador from China, Now my father was born in Tsingdao (oh dear, I'm not sure how to spell that! The one with the beer!)--his father was in the US Navy--and mention was made of this to the Chinese ambassador. My mother described his reaction as "Landsman!" (Apparently what he said was "You're Chinese!") I thought the word was German (or, given my mother's linguistic background, Norwegian). Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics (I should mention, just in case, my ancestry is pretty Anglo.) From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:29:36 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:29:36 -0500 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <1399950.3234695476@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: But maybe Kathleen Miller wasn't asking just about past tense. Here's Bush expressing concerns about the International Criminal Court: "Now, as the United States works to bring peace around the world, our diplomats and or soldiers could be drug into this court." (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/international/july-dec02/court_7-3.html) Is "drug" in passives also a well-established dialectal form? -Mai From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:44:56 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:44:56 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barbara Need wrote: > >David Bergdahl wrote: > >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a > >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > > > > >It's certainly what my parents (born in 1919 and 1924) would say. But I've > >also heard it from people who are currently in their 30s, albeit with a > >kind of self-reflexive irony. > > > > > >That's interesting, because I am familiar with the term "landsman", but it >does not mean to me that the person referred to is Jewish. My parents were >in Sofia, Bulgaria visiting the American ambassador and his wife (she was a >college friend of my mother's). While they were there, there went to some >embassy function and were introduced to the Ambassador from China, Now my >father was born in Tsingdao (oh dear, I'm not sure how to spell that! The >one with the beer!)--his father was in the US Navy--and mention was made of >this to the Chinese ambassador. My mother described his reaction as >"Landsman!" (Apparently what he said was "You're Chinese!") I thought the >word was German (or, given my mother's linguistic background, Norwegian). I've always assumed that "landsman" is Yiddish. In any case, in the heyday of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called "landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 4 02:45:59 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:45:59 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020703224015.00ab09d0@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: >of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and >mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called >"landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" >was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure >at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use >sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. Like homeboy/homegirl? Bethany From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 03:02:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:02:30 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > > >of Jewish immigration to New York, there were various social clubs and > >mutual aid societies for immigrants from particular areas, called > >"landsmanshaften" (or some such). So, in the immigrant usage, a "landsman" > >was someone from the same home town as you in the old country. I'm not sure > >at what point the term was extended to mean a fellow Jew. Your mother's use > >sounds more like a mutatis mutandis of the original meaning. > >Like homeboy/homegirl? Pretty much. The only difference is whether the place of origin is in the same country or another country. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From pds at VISI.COM Thu Jul 4 03:32:58 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:32:58 -0500 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is "guter kop" the opposite of "goyisher kop"? At 07:11 PM 7/3/2002 -0700, A. Maberry wrote: >I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early >1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably >about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" >or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). >However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish >expressionor is also used in German. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 4 00:44:52 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:44:52 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: <192.944d1da.2a54874d@aol.com> Message-ID: >... Most other incorrect irregulars have >obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by >analogy with "blew". DOes anyone else remember this? I sneezed a sneeze into the air It fell to earth I know not where But hard and cold Were the looks of those In whose vicinity I snoze Rima From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 06:13:33 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:13:33 EDT Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: For the life of me, I can never remember if the standard is "drug" or "dragged", but I will stick by "drug". As to similar things happening... how about: driv (=drove) i.e. How did the car drive? Oh, it driv alright. rid (=rode) I've heard "rid" twice with no mention, but "driv" on three separate occasions by three separate people who commented on it later (like, right after their sentence was finished). Everybody corrected theirselves (tee-hee), but the error was there... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From kkmetron at COX.NET Thu Jul 4 09:33:03 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 02:33:03 -0700 Subject: drig drag drug? Message-ID: It always strikes me when I visit London how many RS speakers, referring to a repast earlier that day, say "I et", in the US a dialectical pronunciation I still hear in such varied regions as the Northeast, the South and the West. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Bigham To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: Re: drig drag drug? For the life of me, I can never remember if the standard is "drug" or "dragged", but I will stick by "drug". As to similar things happening... how about: driv (=drove) i.e. How did the car drive? Oh, it driv alright. rid (=rode) I've heard "rid" twice with no mention, but "driv" on three separate occasions by three separate people who commented on it later (like, right after their sentence was finished). Everybody corrected theirselves (tee-hee), but the error was there... -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 4 07:29:00 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:29:00 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <004c01c222f9$9f55da00$1db89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >long time--ancient in the 1950s. Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. Rima And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all the way... From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jul 4 11:17:59 2002 From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:17:59 +0200 Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: > "Commute" in European languages? > The fellow who coined the term "telecommuting" in 1973 has told me that in > the early 80s he started using the word "telework," instead, because most > European languages didn't have an equivalent for the verb "commute" (in the > sense of to travel regularly to and from one's place of work). This seems > surprising since this sense of "commute" has been in the English language > for over a hundred years. Does his assertion seem plausible? > > German has "pendeln", from the swing of the pendulum, with commuters being "Pendler", or sometimes - a little bit more explicit - "Berufspendler". P. Lucko From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 14:43:28 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:43:28 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>... Most other incorrect irregulars have >>obvious parallels: "squoze" by analogy with "froze", "snew" for "snowed" by >>analogy with "blew". > >DOes anyone else remember this? > >I sneezed a sneeze into the air >It fell to earth I know not where >But hard and cold >Were the looks of those >In whose vicinity I snoze Me, me, me! Of course, I still have trouble avoiding talking about "freshly squozen orange juice". Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 14:47:00 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:47:00 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > >Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too >many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. > >In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and >bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, >beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and >then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > >Rima > >And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond >the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all >the way... Hmmm...now I'm remembering a similarly comedic scene in Blazing Saddles, from 1974 (I don't normally remember movie dates, but I saw the movie, twice, when I was at the LSA Summer Institute in Amherst, in 1974). Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 14:56:59 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:56:59 EDT Subject: "Commute" in European languages? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/4/02 7:17:05 AM, Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE writes: << German has "pendeln", from the swing of the pendulum, with commuters being "Pendler", or sometimes - a little bit more explicit - "Berufspendler". P. Lucko >> Similarly, Italian has "pendolare" (pendulum) for "commuter" and "fare il pendolare" (do the pendulum) for "to commute." Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 15:07:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:07:20 EDT Subject: Mojo & Jojo potatoes (1960); Couch potatoes (1976) Message-ID: MOJO & JOJO POTATOES Greetings from New York City. I rushed right to my John Mariani ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK and to DARE to check for "jojo" potatoes. Neither work has an entry! Nothing on this American food! Roadfood.com has a discussion of it. Someone said it might be related to "mojo" potatoes. A check for "jojo" potatoes on the USPTO web site surprisingly turns up nothing. However, "mojo" potatoes were trademarked and first used in 1960 by the popular Shakey's Pizza chain. This could be why "jojo" appears in the west and not the east. I'll check "potatoes" info in the recently acquired Brownstone food collection at NYU when I have time, in about three weeks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- COUCH POTATOES OED has "couch potato" from 1979. USPTO records show it was trademarked by Robert Armstrong of Dixon, CA, with first use of July 15, 1976, and first use in commerce of April 20, 1977. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MISC. IF/WHEN SCOREBOARD UPDATE--David Shulman's radio interview aired last Sunday, so strike that one off...I e-mailed Dell about my rebate (Customer Care confuses you by using the word "credit" and never mentioning the word "rebate"). I received a response just now--I was to receive a credit? What credit was I talking about? DELL!!!!! I WANT MY MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOT DOG--The New York Times ran a "hot dog" article on July 3rd. The good news is that it didn't mention the "TAD" hot dog story. The bad news is that this article is exactly like every single one that's been written for the past 30 years, minus the TAD story. And why DIDN'T it mention the TAD story? The Polo Grounds was in New York City. TAD drews cartoons for a New York City newspaper. The thing was solved by an etymologist from New York. Why isn't my name mentioned in a single July 4th "hot dog" newspaper article, anywhere, ever? WINDY CITY & WASHINGTON POST--I wrote a letter to the editor of the Washington Post that its "Windy CIty" explanation 6-23-02 was wrong. I could not possibly make up the information on the Library of Congress's web site. My letter was not published. On Saturday, I wrote to the ombudsman of the Washington Post. I received no response. As I've said many times, I did my "hot dog" and "Windy City" work over five years ago. My total income to date from this has been zero, I've not been on tv, I've not been on radio, and I've won no awards. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 4 15:30:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:30:49 -0400 Subject: drig drag drug? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #DOes anyone else remember this? # #I sneezed a sneeze into the air #It fell to earth I know not where #But hard and cold #Were the looks of those #In whose vicinity I snoze ! -- Mark A. Mandel From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Jul 4 16:33:48 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:33:48 EDT Subject: Couch potatoes (1976) Message-ID: The origin of "couch potato" is explained in detail in a book to be published in October by Houghton Mifflin: "Predicting New Words: The Secrets of Their Success" by Allan Metcalf. Here is a pertinent excerpt: . . . Here's how it chanced to happen, according to an illustrated history by two of the perpetrators themselves, "Elders" Jack Mingo and Robert Armstrong, in The Official Couch Potato Handbook (1983). The saga began in the 1960s with nine Southern Californians who got together on Thursday nights to watch Lost in Space. Calling themselves the "Lost in Space Club," they soon began meeting to watch other television shows as well. "One of them," the story continues, "known only as 'The Hallidonian,' soon made the discovery that any day, any time was all right for prolonged, indiscriminate TV viewing." Then, supposedly on July 15, 1976, another of the nine "Elders," Tom Iacino, uttered the term couch potato in making a phone call to The Hallidonian. The illustrated history depicts the moment: "Hi, Annie Jo--Can I speak to the 'couch potato'?" asks Iacino's telephone voice, to which Annie Jo responds "The wha?" while across the room the Hallidonian relaxes on his couch, watching The Flintstones. . . From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Jul 4 16:53:50 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 11:53:50 -0500 Subject: Postcard from R. Aman (editor, _Maledicta_) Message-ID: Reinhold Aman--editor of Maledicta--is certainly one of the most interesting word-researchers of all time and (as he has clarified to his readership) has come upon hard times the past five years or so. Yesterday I received a postcard he sent to his readers and other supporters, and I now share it with the ads-l list. It appears right after my signoff. BTW, I have no financial stake in _Maledicta_ and am sending this e-mail solely in the spirit of hoping to help Reinhold's publication. He's entirely correct when he says it's too valuable to let die. Gerald Cohen (postcard): from: Dr. Reinhold Aman MALEDICTA P.O. Box 14123 Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6123 "Dear Friend, Reader, Maledicta-Fan: "This is my final attempt to keep _Maledicta_ alive. To do so, I need your help--help in the form of orders and financial contributions, not just praise and encouragement, because moral support won't pay for the immense expenses of printing and shipping our unique publication. "After having emerged from four years of a life-sapping clinical depression caused by various unpleasant (non-legal) events, I'm now ready to publish our next volume (13) before December. Yet after four years of extremely low income ($2,500 - $4,000 a year), I have no money left and thus appeal to your generosity to contribute to the Maledicta Survival Fund. Everyone can afford to contribute $20 (or more) to get the next volume off the ground and to keep _Maledicta_ alive. "Also check the lower prices of back issues and other Maledicta press books at my Web page: http://www.maledicta.ORG/pricelist_order.html If you're not on the Net, please write for an Order Form (see address on front). My e-mail address is aman at maledicta.ORG "Please help this last time with a contribution MAL is too valuable and unique, I'm told again and again, to let it die. There's much material ready to be published, but without your support I simply don't have the means to print and ship another 160-page volume. "Checks and money orders are preferred; Visa and MasterCard charges are welcomed. "Counting on your kind support to keep _Maledicta_ (and me and my cats) alive. ---Reinhold (Rey) Aman, Editor and Publisher" From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Jul 4 17:24:44 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: The opposite of "goyishe kop" is "Yiddishe kop." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kysilko" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: Re: Jew/Jewish > Is "guter kop" the opposite of "goyisher kop"? > > At 07:11 PM 7/3/2002 -0700, A. Maberry wrote: > >I've heard "landsman" too, but probably not since the late 1960s or early > >1970s. I remember "member of the tribe" (but not M.O.T.) from probably > >about the same time. There's also "Yid" as in "he's a frummer Yid" > >or "a guter Yid", and from farther back a "guter kop" (kop = head). > >However I don't know if "guter kop" is used exclusively Yiddish > >expressionor is also used in German. > > > Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services > pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA > > From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Jul 4 19:02:21 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 21:02:21 +0200 Subject: Jew/Jewish Message-ID: "Landsmann" is not specifically Jiddisch. The word exists in German as well as in the Scandinavian languages at least since the 16th century and simply means "someone from the same country or province". Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 19:10:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:10:17 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:29 AM -0700 7/4/02, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >>I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it has been dead a >>long time--ancient in the 1950s. > >Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too >many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and never MOT. > >In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing the lost and >bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the black hats, >beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and >then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > >Rima > >And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond >the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all >the way... actually, as he put it, "I don't go the whole hog". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 4 19:23:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:23:36 -0400 Subject: Mojo & Jojo potatoes (1960); Couch potatoes (1976) In-Reply-To: <141.10f06dba.2a55bea8@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0400 7/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >------------------------------------------------- >COUCH POTATOES > > OED has "couch potato" from 1979. > USPTO records show it was trademarked by Robert Armstrong of Dixon, CA, >with first use of July 15, 1976, and first use in commerce of April 20, 1977. > Fer sher. Robert was a fellow-traveller of R. Crumb and his Cheap Suit Serenaders, a somewhat funky string band. They all holed up in a nice country house in Sonoma County at the time, and Robert lived off the royalties of "couch potato" and silk-screened T-shirts for a while back then. Some of the T-shirts featured a laid-back spud qua couch potato, i.e. a "tuber". Them was the days. larry From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Jul 4 23:36:21 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:36:21 -0600 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Amish wear crosses?? Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Kim & Rima McKinzey > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 1:29 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Jew/Jewish > > > >I swear I've heard "Is he a landsman?" but whoever said it > has been dead a > >long time--ancient in the 1950s. > > Having grown up Jewish in NYC also in the 50s, I don't remember too > many terms from then, but I know I've heard landsman - and > never MOT. > > In the film "Frisco Kid" from 1979, Gene Wilder, playing > the lost and > bedraggled Polish rabbi, sees a group of Amish - with the > black hats, > beards, etc. and runs to them crying "Landsmen." They help him and > then, when he sees their crosses, faints in their arms. > > Rima > > And there's also Dr. Jonothan Miller - when he was still with Beyond > the Fringe, who said he wasn't a Jew, he was JewISH, not going all > the way... > From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 5 01:17:36 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:17:36 -0700 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: <000001c223b3$9a154ac0$02da0c0a@sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >The Amish wear crosses?? Now that I think about it, I think they (the Amish in Frisco Kid) had Bibles in their pockets and the Bibles had crosses on the covers. Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 02:25:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:25:31 EDT Subject: Skort; Buddha's Fingers; Jackhammer; Denali Rose; Sorbetini Message-ID: SKORT From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in cycling in the 1960s. It's not in OED. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BUDDHA'S FINGERS Also in ALASKA AIRLINES magazine (I read it every month), July 2002, Pg. 79, col. 1: Inside tranquil Beihai Park, Fangshan Restaurant (1 Wenjin Street, 011-86-10-6401-1879) serves imperial cuisine based on nearly 1,000-year-old recipes. Many of the old court favorites--bears' paw and tiger kidney among them--are no longer available, though visitors can still enjoy everything from turtle soup to Buddha's fingers (minced duck, pork and scallions wrapped in thin pancakes) under Fangshan's golden-domed ceiling and latern-shaped chandeliers. (A Google search for "Buddha's fingers" turns up some interesting hits, but not the pancakes--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JACKHAMMER Muffin Man Cafe, 817 West Sixth Avenue, Anchorage, also offers a BLTA. I checked Google, adding "tomato, lettuce" and such: BLTA--89 hits BALT--17 hits BLTE--14 hits BELT--573 hits So I guess it helps that "belt" is a word and "balt" is not. Right above BLTA under "classic sandwiches" is: JACKHAMMER--HOUSE BAKED HAM AND MONTEREY JACK CHEESE ON SOURDOUGH WITH LETTUCE, TOMATO, DIJON AND MAYO. "Jackhammer" makes a lot of sense, but I saw only a few "jackhammer" and "jack hammer" hits on Google. Sometimes these things require a Jack-in-the-Box to promote a "Jackhammer" for it to take off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- DENALI ROSE The Glacier Brewhouse (www.glacierbrewhouse.com) is a popular Anchorage spot where I had my last Alaskan meal. The menu has these infused cocktails: RUBY DROP 5.50--BrewHouse citrus infused vodka and housemade lemon & lime sour. Hand shaken, and sweetened with a sugared rim. LAZY SU 5.25--A refreshing, shaken medley of kiwi, pineapple infused rum, prach schnapps and lemonade. DENALI ROSE 5.50--Cranberry, kiwi, and pineapple infused rum, shaken with cranberry juice, housemade sweet & sour with a splash of Chambord. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SORBETINI The AMERICAN WAY (AMERICAN AIRLINES) magazine for July 1, 2002 includes a specialty of Keefer's (20 W. Kinzie, Chicago). It's SORBETINI--vodka and sorbet freezes. I didn't see it on Google, but it looks kewl in the magazine. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 5 02:39:12 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:39:12 -0400 Subject: Skort; Buddha's Fingers; Jackhammer; Denali Rose; Sorbetini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SKORT > > From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: > > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," >which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark >records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in >cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. I wore skorts in high school--late 60s. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 5 04:34:37 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:34:37 -0600 Subject: Amish (Jew/Jewish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, okay, then. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Thurs, July 4, '02, Rima McKinzey wrote: > > > >The Amish wear crosses?? > > Now that I think about it, I think they (the Amish in > Frisco Kid) had > Bibles in their pockets and the Bibles had crosses on the covers. > > Rima > From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Jul 5 04:49:11 2002 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:49:11 -0600 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to remember considering this for the Gage Canadian Dictionary (copyright '83). Skorts were a big fashion item in the 70s, with no ref to cycling, and they weren't stretchy (don't think they made "stretchy" back then, except for bathing suits); they were just a short skirt attached to shorts or sometimes even just a front panel open on one side, for the look of a wraparound skirt. I can't really remember why it didn't get entered, but it was most likely that we didn't want to use precious space for ephemeral fashion terms. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Thursday, July 04, '02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SKORT > > From ALASKA AIRLINES magazine, July 2002, pg. 65, col. 2: > > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the > flattering "skort," > which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in > trademark > records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it > was used in > cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jul 5 05:56:53 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:56:53 -0700 Subject: Skort Message-ID: one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set up a context in which a sentence involving both the words SKORT and SPORK would be natural. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), easily amused From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 13:25:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:25:26 EDT Subject: Skort Message-ID: In a message dated 07/04/2002 10:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Another hot-seller for female mountain bikers is the flattering "skort," > which combines stretchy cycling shorts with a wraparound skirt. > > There are many hits for "skort," but I did not see it in trademark > records. Google has it from 1992, with indicatings that it was used in > cycling in the 1960s. > It's not in OED. I can give a citation from 1957-58. I was in the 5th grade that year, and there was some children's newspaper or magazine that we read regularly in class (My Weekly Reader?). The magazine had an article on new words. I distinctly remember two such new words in that article: "moonlighting" and "skort". The article also suggested that you put it away for five years and when you take it back out, see how many of these new words are still in use. Well, I did just that. In the tenth grade, miraculously, I was still able to locate the article, which I gave to my tenth-grade English teacher, who kept it, but maybe somebody can locate it. - James A Landau then of Gideon Shryock Elementary School P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Jul 5 13:31:24 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:31:24 +0100 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <7e.2a07152a.2a56f846@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Friday, July 5, 2002 9:25 am +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral > color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels > "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". I'd call it a 'chearleader's skirt', but that's more about the length and pleats than about the panties. I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a tradename. Now, trying to find 'lollipop' by putting 'lollipop cheerleader panties' into Google brings up a whole lot of borderline pedophilic stuff. In most cases, the 'lollipops' involved are not panties, but I do find a reference at: http://hillsborodukes.org/cheer_uniform_Info.htm Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 5 14:44:20 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:44:20 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <4441937.3234868284@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne Murphy writes: >I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the >panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen >when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a >tradename. ~~~~~~~~~ Lollipop was indeed a trademark name of underpants. Can't remember which manufacturer -- possibly Globe -- but do remember their being very well-made. Never thought of them as made to be visible! A. Murie A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Jul 5 14:51:42 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:51:42 -0700 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <4441937.3234868284@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: I was on drill team many moons ago and our uniforms consisted of a top, skirt, briefs, gloves, socks, shoes and pom poms. The briefs aren't actually part of the uniform. They are very thick and actually meant to be worn over panties. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Lynne Murphy Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:31 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Skort --On Friday, July 5, 2002 9:25 am +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > P.S. What is the proper term for a cheerleader's skirt? It has integral > color-coordinated panties, so that the cheerleader can do cartwheels > "safely", but I've never heard anyone refer to a "cheerleader's skort". I'd call it a 'chearleader's skirt', but that's more about the length and pleats than about the panties. I don't know what you call the skirts with the panties built in, but the panties themselves, i.e., panties that are colored and meant to be seen when doing cartwheels etc. are called 'lollipops'. I'm guessing that's a tradename. Now, trying to find 'lollipop' by putting 'lollipop cheerleader panties' into Google brings up a whole lot of borderline pedophilic stuff. In most cases, the 'lollipops' involved are not panties, but I do find a reference at: http://hillsborodukes.org/cheer_uniform_Info.htm Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 5 15:14:59 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:14:59 -0400 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: I have the radio on to the Tony Kornheiser show on ESPN radio. The person he's interviewing (I didn't catch the name, but he's talking about Julia Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a locution that others have encountered? Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Fri Jul 5 15:53:54 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:53:54 -0400 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020705111234.00ac4090@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: |o| Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard |o| line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. In the radio world (HAM/CB/Police) landline has been in use for decades. Never heard hard line before, though. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 15:56:01 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:56:01 EDT Subject: Hard line Message-ID: In a message dated 07/05/2002 11:14:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: > the delay in getting to his "hard > line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a > locution that others have encountered? I haven't heard this specific usage, but as long as I have been in the computer business (since 1965) "hard" and "soft" have always been used as antonyms, with "hard" meaning or implying permanence, and "soft" meaning or implying "temporary, easy to modify". For example, a long-ago article on computers in South America talked about problems with "soft hardware" and "hard software", that is, in South America computer installations (this was long before microcomputers) had trouble keeping up with manufacturer's changes to hardware, while on the other hand they were not getting current updates to software. The ROM (read-only memory) on your PC is also called "firmware"---it is supplied by the vendor, and is not supposed to be modified (hence is hard) yet can be easily modified by the vendor (so it is softer than hard, hence "firm"). There is a double-entendre here, although the coiner of "firmware" may not have realized it----firmware can also be changed by the "firm" that issued it. A nonce usage from a programmer back in 1971---at an exhibit of new railroad technology, he referred to those displays using traditional steel rails as "hard rail" and those using concrete etc. as "soft rail". Software is soft, right? Not necessarily. Consider a "parameter" in your program, such as the number of departments in your company. You can set up this parameter as part of the program, or you can set it up in a table where it can be easily changed. The former is called "hard-coding" since it requires a skilled programmer to go into your program to modify it, and therefore is more permanent. No, I have never heard "soft-coding" for the latter. In the FAA we call it "adaptation" and make a religion out of it, but I don't know if that is a widely used term. If the wiring between two pieces of equipment is soldered in place so that it takes a competent electrician to change the connections, it is said to be "hard-wired". Sometimes the usage is somewhat metaphorical, to mean something like "difficult to change", as in "he was hard-wired for coffee breaks". Again, I don't know the antonym for "hard-wired"; perhaps "switchable". (Hmmm. Instead of knee-jerk liberals, we have hard-wired liberals?) I suspect the hard-versus-soft metaphor goes back to whoever invented the term "software". - Jim Landau Systems Engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 5 16:35:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:35:51 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020705111234.00ac4090@brillig.panix.com> Message-ID: > I have the radio on to the Tony Kornheiser show on ESPN > radio. The person > he's interviewing (I didn't catch the name, but he's talking > about Julia > Roberts and not sports) referred to the delay in getting to his "hard > line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell > phone. Is this a > locution that others have encountered? It's used in the movie "The Matrix" (1999). In that movie it did not simply mean a landline, but an analog (non-digital) landline. A quick google search pulls up a handful (5) sites that use the phrase "telephone hardline." So it doesn't appear to be in common use. It is not a telecom jargon term as far as I know. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 5 18:01:06 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:01:06 -0400 Subject: Lollipop underwear; Mohs surgery Message-ID: My telephone service went out last night. I was gonna call the phone company to tell them, but I couldn't. My telephone company is MCI. I hope it's back when I return home. LOLLIPOP UNDERWEAR--Trademark record show a "Lollipop...women's and children's knit underwear and sleepwear," with first use of January 1, 1941. The company is Modern Globe, Inc., of Pawtucket, RI and also North Wilkesboro, NC. MOHS SURGERY--I didn't see this in OED. Is it coming in the OED revision? From today's NEW YORK TIMES, 5 July 2002, pg. C7, col. 2: _Frederic Mohs, 92, Inventor of Cancer Sergery Technique_ (...) Mohs surgery, originally also known as chemosurgery, allows the physician to map and remove not just the visible parts of a skin cancer but also its cancerous roots, which can spread into the body along blood vessels, nerves and cartilage. (If the OED revision has already worked on this, then just add the obit.--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 5 19:05:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:05:32 -0400 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: <19b.4c0dc62.2a571b91@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU writes: # #> the delay in getting to his "hard #> line", in a context where it was clearly opposed to cell phone. Is this a #> locution that others have encountered? # #I haven't heard this specific usage, but as long as I have been in the #computer business (since 1965) "hard" and "soft" have always been used as #antonyms, with "hard" meaning or implying permanence, and "soft" meaning or #implying "temporary, easy to modify". The term "hard copy" means a physical, handleable paper copy of an electronic document. In this context plain "copy", as in "I'll send you a copy", usually means an electronic copy, e.g., as an email attachment. I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft copy". This could count as a retronym. I sometimes similarly use "hard mail" in opposition to "email", as a noun. AFAIK it's always been understood without difficulty, but I have not heard/seen anyone else using it. -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 5 19:15:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:15:51 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The term "hard copy" means a physical, handleable paper copy of an > electronic document. In this context plain "copy", as in > "I'll send you a copy", usually means an electronic copy, e.g., > as an email attachment. I haven't heard the expected counterpart > "soft copy". This could count as a retronym. I've heard and used "soft copy" on many occasions, not as many as "hard copy," but often enough that is quite familiar. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 01:15:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 21:15:26 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: <200207050556.g655urG25238@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: At 10:56 PM -0700 7/4/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set >up a context in which a sentence involving both the words >SKORT and SPORK would be natural. > "Why Ru Paul, is that a spork under your skort, or are you just happy to see me?" L From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 01:31:40 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: Skort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: >At 10:56 PM -0700 7/4/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>one of my (still unrealized) small ambitions is to set >>up a context in which a sentence involving both the words >>SKORT and SPORK would be natural. >"Why Ru Paul, is that a spork under your skort, or are you just happy >to see me?" RuPaul wouldn't be caught dead in a skort; they're far too preppy. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 6 02:18:29 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: A local columnist has sent me an interesting query that I do not know how to respond to. Please help me answer this (you will get full credit for all your words, good, bad, and indifferent). I can discuss certain epithets, but I suspect those are not the words at issue. (I have a copy of _The F-Word_ now, but I will not have access to it again until Monday.) ---- Bethany, My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed on to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get to be bad? Can you shed any light on this for me (and for him). Thanks. ----- Thanks, Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 03:15:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:15:35 -0400 Subject: A Lantsman! (1970) Message-ID: THE TASTE OF YIDDISH by Lillian Mermin Feinsilver South Brunswick, NY: Thomas Yoseloff 1970 Pg. 202: A LANTSMAN! A countryman! (discovery that someone comes from the same part of the world that you do) Though originally this referred to the Old World, second- and third-generation American Jews use it good-humoredly. Two New Yorkers meeting in Paris, for instance, might chuckingly use the exclamation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 03:59:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:59:23 -0400 Subject: Chicago beigel (1928) Message-ID: THE GHETTO by Louis Wirth Chicago: The University of Chicago Press December 1928 Second Impression December 1929 Pg. 224 (The Chicago Ghetto): There are Kosher bake-shops with rye bread, poppy-seed bread, and pumpernickel daily, and a kind of doughnut known as _beigel_ for _Shabboth_. (The attached Chicago tidbit is FWIW, found during a search just now. Oy--ed.) For mother and daughter, Chicago seems like a toy box ANNE CHALFANT KRT NEWS SERVICE 1,121 Words 06/30/2002 The Star-Ledger Newark, NJ FINAL 002 (c) 2002. The Star-Ledger. All rights reserved. ... The Art Institute of Chicago, along with the Museum of Science and Industry, was constructed for the 1893 Columbian Exposition, which, by the way, is supposedly where Chicago earned its "Windy City" moniker, named for the pride-filled Chicago boosters who went to New York to stump for bringing the exposition to their town. This is the kind of fact learned on an architecture tour of this city... From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 6 05:22:57 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:22:57 -0500 Subject: drig, drag, drug Message-ID: How many classes there are depends on whose grammar you're going by. The traditional seven goes back to the seven major strong verb classes of OE, which doesn't work well even for OE, since there are other minor classes as well. But for learning OE, the seven are a good preliminary breakdown. Greenbaum's 1996 Oxford English Grammar has more (I've forgotten the number and I don't have the grammar handy at the internet cafe in Vilnius), based entirely on patterns in Modern English. But it's useful to keep strong/weak separate from regular/irregular. Strong/weak is a distinction that Grimm made to distinguish between forms he attributed to Ur-Indo-Germanisch, roughly Proto-Indo-European. The ablaut, or vowel-changing forms without a dental suffix were strong. Anything with a dental suffix was weak, the dental suffix being a specifically Germanic innovation. His use of strong vs. weak goes back to his Rousseau-influenced romantic nationalism, which led him, and his brother, to try to reconstruct the language and culture of the culturally pure ancestors of the modern speakers of Indo-Germanic, as he called them, languages. Within any modern Germanic languages there are irregularities in verbs the develop within strong or weak or across them, like go/went/gone, in an extreme case. I like especially the seeming restoration of a preterite plural with sneak, snuck (pret. sg.), snook (pret. pl., rhymes with took), snuck (past part.). From a recent thread on this, this pret. pl. seems to occur in the Buffalo area as well as in Central Indiana and in the Santa Monica area. Herb > On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #An irregular English verb is sometimes called a "strong verb", presumably > #because it has the strength to avoid conformity. You might invent the term > #"strengthening a verb" but I don't recommend it. Nor would I recommend > #"irregularize"---it just wouldn't make tense to me. > > Technically, strong verbs are not the same as irregular verbs. In the > Germanic languages many verbs change the vowel in the stem to form the > past tense and/or the past participle: > > drink/drank/drunk > sing/sang/sung > > fly/flew/flown > > ride/rode/ridden > > think/thought/thought > > I think there are seven classes of these. "Drig/drag/drug" seems to be > imitating the class of "drink/drank/drunk", which iirc is historically > inaccurate because the verbs of this class all end in "ing" or "ink" in > the present tense. Not that historical accuracy is of any relevance > here! > > The other funny thing about "drig/drag/drug" is that it changes the > present tense; it was a joke, yes? There are real "neo-strong" forms, > like "dove" (past of "dive") and "shat" (past/pp of "shit"), but I've > never heard of changing the stem in the present tense. > > Note that none of these examples use the regular, or "weak", ending > "-(e)d" in either of the inflected forms. "Walk" is a weak verb: > > walk/walked/walked > > "Have" and "go" are irregular: > > have/had/had > go/went/gone > > IIRC, the past tense "went" was suppletive, originally from the > now-obsolete verb "wend", which when used at all is conjugated weakly: > > wend/wended/wended > > If I were at home I would have appropriate reference material from which > to flood you with accurate data, but I would also be undergoing physical > and mental meltdown in the brutal heat we're having in the Northeast. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguist at Large From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 6 10:31:08 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 06:31:08 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <000001c224ae$f8349420$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Two surprises for me here. First of all, I was surprised to see this used by a mainstream US News & World Report writer as original text, not a quote. The second was that I'd always heard and occasionally used "groady" or perhaps "grody", I've never seen it in print, but wasn't aware it had made it into mainstream usage (usage: cleaning the grease trap is pretty groady work--possibly a coined word from gross and ???). Am I just out of it? Across town from Red Earth, in a grotty strip-mall bar surrounded by four "gentlemen's clubs" and a bingo parlor, the members... USN&WR, July 8-15, p. 27. (BTW, I was aware of the computer command GROTTY in the GNU system of commands) rhk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 6 10:57:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 06:57:54 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" In-Reply-To: <3423E433.688FD8D8.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the "race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: 1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Jul 6 03:20:37 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:20:37 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed > on > to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get > to > be bad? A few months ago at a village council meeting a councilman in a Dickie's shirt and Cat hat told a citizen to get her "fat ass" out of the room. Our local newspaper was just stunned by these words and editorialized about the collapse of civilization. I was allowed a guest editorial, which I attach below. D ++++++++++++++++ On September 27, 1066, William, Duke of Normandy, landed at Pevensey, in the south of England. As a direct result of this thousand-year-old event, The Daily Review in a recent story had to parenthetically mask a three letter word (which, incidentally, was not a deleted expletive as reported but rather a deleted noun) referring to a local resident's derriere and its purported steatopygic condition. Normandy is in France, and although William came from an immigrant family (Norman is a corruption of Norsemen), he spoke French. After conquering the German-speaking English (from Angles, a German tribe who had arrived five hundred years earlier), William brought in his French cronies to share in the spoils. There was no English language at this time, making degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than they are today. It took two centuries for French to meld with German into English. English is so rich in synonyms because it is a mixture of two different languages, and often both French and German words for the same thing were incorporated into it, but not necessarily with the same value. During the formative centuries, the nobility spoke French, and German was the language of the conquered peasants. As both groups came to speak the same newly evolved language, words with French roots acquired a patrician cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of disapprobation originally describing the lower class). For the same reason, today we eat pork from swine and beef from cows. German speakers tended the farm animals and gave them their names, but the French upper class ate the meat -- porc and boeuf as well as venison, poultry, and mutton. In the Bible the 3d Commandment proscribes using the name of God in inappropriate ways. Aside from that, all other profanity is a cultural phenomenon, essentially a tool of class discrimination. "Dirty" words have no intrinsic taint. They have power only as we choose to give it to them, and condemnation of certain words in favor of others meaning exactly the same thing is historically elitist. Had someone in Windham been asked to remove her derriere, it would have been quite proper, even quaint, as far as the language is concerned. It strikes me that a great deal of fuss is being made over a linguistic anachronism. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 6 12:52:03 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:52:03 +0100 Subject: grotty Message-ID: Grotty, as in 'grotesque', was part of the mini-vocabulary ('fab', 'gear', and 'swinging' were among the better known coevals) that emerged in the UK c.1963 as what one could term the linguistic spinoff the Beatlemania. It was etymologised, like everything seen as stemming from the 'Fab Four', as being Liverpudlian in origin. Unsurprisngly the first OED cite is from what looks to be a novelisation (1964) of the Beatles film 'Hard Day's Night'. I have always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang and Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). Jonathon Green From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 6 14:00:55 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:00:55 -0400 Subject: Jew/Jewish In-Reply-To: <8f.1e64f569.2a54a674@aol.com> Message-ID: James Landau wrote, among other things: 'Solomon Schechter, who headed the Jewish Theological Seminary at the beginning of the 20th Century, liked to refer to "Catholic Israel", which I think is a misleading translation of a Hebrew phrase meaning "the community of Israel".' Here's what Neil Gillman's book, Conservative Judaism, has to say about this on page 54: "Catholic Israel! What a strange term, and how often it has been misunderstood. It is quite clear what Schechter did not mean. He clearly did not mean that if we want to know what Judaism stands for, we should simply look at how most Jews act and what they believe. By that criterion, Judaism would have been declared long dead. Nor did he feel that rabbis and scholars should have no influence on the community's understanding of Judaism. He was far too much of an intellectual elitist to believe that. The adjective _catholic_ - with a lower-case _c_ - simply means 'universal,' 'broad,' or 'comprehensive,' the opposite of narrow, denominational, sectarian, or partial.'" From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 17:20:52 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:20:52 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I distinctly remember Ringo Starr employing _grody_ in the 1960s. It was the first time I had heard it used and I searched around that day until I discovered what it meant and where "it came from." In the late 1980s I purchased 'New Dictionary of American Slang' (ed. Robert L. Chapman, Ph D., 1986). His entry is: grotty (GROH dee, -tee) 1. adj (variations: groady or groaty or groddy; to the max may be added) esp teenagers fr 1960s Disgusting; nasty; repellent; bizarre; = GRUNGY, SCUZZY: The magazines had covers with those grotty weirdos on them--Philadelphia 2 noun: the introspective hedonism and political individualism of the second group... called groddies--Trans-Action [fr grotesque; popularized by the Beatles in the 1960s; perhaps fr Merseyside dialect] Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 5:52 AM Subject: Re: grotty Grotty, as in 'grotesque', was part of the mini-vocabulary ('fab', 'gear', and 'swinging' were among the better known coevals) that emerged in the UK c.1963 as what one could term the linguistic spinoff the Beatlemania. It was etymologised, like everything seen as stemming from the 'Fab Four', as being Liverpudlian in origin. Unsurprisngly the first OED cite is from what looks to be a novelisation (1964) of the Beatles film 'Hard Day's Night'. I have always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang and Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). Jonathon Green From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 17:43:48 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:43:48 -0700 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" Message-ID: As unlikely as it seems, in 1983 I came across an ad in The Providence Journal, 1937 or 1938, for a live show featuring Jack Benny (among other stars) and "Rock and Roll!" It's time for me to go back to the newspaper archives since my asseveration raises too many eyebrows! Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Shapiro To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 3:57 AM Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the "race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: 1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 6 15:19:14 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:19:14 +0100 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 16:04:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:04:07 EDT Subject: Chutzpah, Shiva, Chanukkah, Schnorrer (YOUNG ISRAEL, 1873-1875) Message-ID: Greetings from the Jewish Division of the NYPL. I fly to Berlin for a discussion of the Wannsee Conference & the Jewish Museum tour & to ask Sol Wachtler about "prosecuting a ham sandwich" in a few hours...Today's NY Post (www.nypost.com) has on its front page a photo of the El Al LAX person who was murdered. She was extremely beautiful. -------------------------------------------------------- YOUNG ISRAEL This was a monthly by Louis Schnabel. Articles by Horatio Alger, Jr. appear in each issue. Didn't David Shulman or anyone go through all this stuff about 40 years ago? I just went through it, so I guess no one has? January 1873, pg. 23: CHANUKKAH HYMN (OED has 1893 for "Chanukkah" and M-W has 1864--ed.) January 1874, pg. 31: ...took a little soap-dish from his knapsack, filled it with water from the cistern, and placed it in the oven close to the _kashar_ dishes, whence it was hastily removed by the trembling hostess who was far from wishing all her dishes to be made _trefa_. January 1874, pg. 32: ...utensils for baking the _matzos_... April 1874, pg. 231: "This time, good people, you have harbored a genuine _Meshumed_" (baptized Jew). January 1875, pg. 11: What is _Campsor_? (...) Nor is it a Hebrew term, or one of that idiom peculiar to the German and Polish Jews--called _Judisch-Deutsch_. January 1875, pg. 17: THE BLIND MAIDEN: A STORY FROM THE OLDEN TIME By I. N. LICHTENBERG TRANSLATED BY ADDIE FUNK (This is a story of Germany's Jews, and most of what follows are from various chapters of this work, unless otherwise indicated. Is it in book form?--ed.) January 1875, pg. 22: ..."and I live in Baker street; every one knew my nurse, who went _shnorren_ (begging) to support us; the people called her 'lame Babette.'" (Many schnorrers are here. OED has 1892 for "schnorrer," where it was of course coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) May 1875, pg. 296 (Not BLIND MAIDEN--ed.): After the first part of the "Hagada" come the inevitable Pessa'h dumplings; and the _Afikoman_, which the child secretly pilfers from the father, and restores only for a promised gift, closes the meal. (OED has 1891, then 1892 ZANGWILL for "afikoman"--ed.) June 1875, pg. 344: "What a _Hutzpe_," (impertinence) thought Cuppel, "to call me son; I could be his father." (OED has 1892 for "chutzpah," where it was coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) June 1875, pg. 404: "_Sh'tuss_," cried Cuppel, "they will do nothing to you." (...) "...as you Christians have inflicted so many _mackoth_ (blows) on the Jews, God has brought it about that you punish and torture each other, for we Jews are too powerless to revenge ourselves." June 1875, pg. 405: "What a _Shidduch_," cried Cuppel contemptuously... August 1875, pg. 466: "Ah," thought Cuppel, "I've hit at the first shot, the man is a _gannov_ (thief,) and is glad to have found an accomplice in me." (...) "My, what _Stuss_," (foolishness), cried Cuppel, in astonishment... August 1875, pg. 467: "What a pity," answered Cuppel, "at least I would have no care for _makkoth_ (blows) on my _shubbetz_ (kaftan)." (...) "A nice _mishpa'ha_," cried Cuppel, quite enraptured. September 1875, pg. 535: ..."they have set fire to the city, the _meshumodim_, and they are coming this way." September 1875, pg. 540: "And where will you spend the _shiv'ah_?" (seven days of mourning) asked Cuppel. (OED has 1892 for "shiva," where it was coined by I. ZANGWILL--ed.) November 1875, pg. 658: For the rest, were I not a _Schnorrer_ by profession, you would have never discovered your Deborah, for only _schnorring_ strengthens the memory and makes people sharp, so that they always recognize a person they have once seen... December 1875, pg. 734: And our old acquaintances, Cuppel and David, held the _Chuppa_ (tent) over the heads of the bridal pair as the Rabbi pronounced the blessing over them and united them for life. (OED has 1876 for "chuppa"--ed.) (O.T. I GOT MORE ANTEDATES! HOLD THAT PLANE!!) From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 19:15:24 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:15:24 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: It may seem improbable, but the long vowel is what struck me when I learned it derived from grotesque. I had seen it only in print and assumed it was a back vowel. At any rate, I've heard it spoken often, always with a long vowel. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: grotty I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 6 17:23:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:23:12 EDT Subject: Eh, Landsmann? (1908) Message-ID: From YOUNG ISRAEL, 24 January 1908, pg. 260, col. 1: "Now play something," they said, speaking in German. "We are very merry and we wish to hear some real good German music. _Eh, Landsmann_?" (Barry Popik, off to Germany--ed.) From kkmetron at COX.NET Sat Jul 6 21:02:36 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:02:36 -0700 Subject: grotty Message-ID: I intended to say I had assumed the vowel was /A/ or /O/. However, the grottywise speakers I heard always used /o/. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathon Green To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: grotty I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a 'd'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. Further to my mention of the novelisation of 'Hard Day's Night', I note a writer on the net who suggests that it was not until HDN that the word was known at all: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/BIE/BI2/beatles.html And when exploring on the mere word-level of the film, one particular word mustn't be forgotten - the word grotty. This word actually came into public use from the film, just like the word fab came into general usage with the Beatles, who were constantly being referred to as the Fab Four (fab = short for fabulous) The word grotty is a short form of the word grotesque, and many people still believe that Alun Owen [the scriptwriter] actually invented the word, but he denies this and claims that "Liverpool invented the word". According to Owen, there was some famous character in Liverpool called "Grotty G.", who was called that because she seemed grotesque to other people. And since "everything gets abbreviated in Liverpool", as Owen put it, the word grotesque simply turned into the word grotty. BTW: For those who want to check the original pronunciation there is a .wav at http://www.angelfire.com/mi/geha3/wavs.html - click on 'It's dead grotty.' Jonathon Green From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 6 20:58:21 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:58:21 -0700 Subject: Hawaiianisms Message-ID: A few expressions I thought worth of note in my trip this week to Maui: 1. much mahalos - gets 247 hits on Google. KPOA (93.5) is currently running a commercial: "Much mahalos to our sponsors for bringing us today's news you can use." Interestingly, many mahalos gets 242 hits on Google. 2. "We just talk stories" - in a commercial on the same station by the HMSA (Hawaii Medical Service Association). The speech sounded spontaneous. This seemed an interesting twist on "to talk story." 3. hanai - Hawaiian adoption, but used also as a verb: "It was the custom to let a relative hanai, or adopt a child. Konia had promised Pauahi to her aunt Kina'u. After he [sic] aunt's death from mumps Pauahi returned to her birth mother, birth father and her hanai sister Lili'u." Found at a display on the Hawaiian royalty in the Old Lanai Courthouse. "H-anai (Hawaiian adoption)" - this spelling, where the dash indicates a macron over the following letter, found in a separate display at the Courthouse. 4. m-ak-ah-a - "The [ital] m-ak-ah-a, or fishgate, is still used as a means of harvesting fish from the fishpond." Also, in this display at the Courthouse: 'Huilua, which means "twice joined," is located where Kahana Stream meets Kahana Bay. The name most likely refers to the double [ital] m-ak-ah-a which fed fresh water into the pond.' 5. ahupua'a - "Hawaiian fishponds provided readily available fish, shellfish and [ital] limu (seaweed) for people within an [ital] ahupua'a." In the same display at the Courthouse: "Now part of Kahana Valley State Park, Huilua Fishpond is being restored as part of The Department of Land and Natural Resource's [sic] effort to create a cultural center within the Kahana Valley [ital] ahupua'a." This is glossed in the New Pocket Hawaiian Dictionary as "Land division usually extending from the uplands to the sea." Although italicized both times in this display at the Courthouse, it is not defined or explained anywhere in the display. 6. PUPUS & SIDES - sounds a bit redundant, but found on Kimo's restaurant menu. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 6 21:50:17 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:50:17 -0400 Subject: Brothel Creepers-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "We had the teenage attitude--surly lite, with a veneer of indifference. We had the threads--Edwardian-style draped jackets, drainpipe pants, and crepe-soled "brothel creeper" suede shoes." Michael Satchell USN&WR Jul 8 15, 2002 p57 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 6 22:03:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:03:52 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <000f01c22500$82b31f80$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though #his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a #'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 6 22:05:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:05:22 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: <00cb01c22521$7b026c20$07d90044@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: #It may seem improbable, but the long vowel is what struck me when I #learned it derived from grotesque. I had seen it only in print and assumed #it was a back vowel. At any rate, I've heard it spoken often, always with #a long vowel. In the sixties I only heard it with a "short" vowel, as in "pot" or "grotto", and I have retained it that way. -- Mark A. Mandel (Vas you dere, Sharlie?) From Friolly at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 01:36:10 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:36:10 EDT Subject: grotty Message-ID: In a message dated 7/6/02 5:52:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > . I have > always assmed _grody/groady_, which seems to have come along with the early > 1980s 'Valley Girls', to be a direct descendant. (Connie Eble, in _Slang > and > Socialibility_, also suggests a Valley Girls origin for _grody_). > > Jonathon Green No way! I remember hearing 'grody' about 1972 (I remember the kid from whom and the grade I was in when I heard it--strange how we remember some things)--long before the Valley girls. They didn't invent it. Fritz From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Jul 7 02:14:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:14:38 -0400 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. Jesse Sheidlower From kkmetron at COX.NET Sun Jul 7 05:40:07 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:40:07 -0700 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: Uhhhh..........I lent out my copies temporarily. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jesse Sheidlower To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 7:14 PM Subject: "grody" This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. Jesse Sheidlower From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 08:51:24 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 04:51:24 EDT Subject: "grody" Message-ID: Just for the record... "The Totally Awesome Val Guide" from 1982 defines "grody" thus: "From grotesque. Dirty, messy, disgusting. Like have you ever looked at what's leftover on a plate of enchiladas and refried beans? Grody to the max!" (p.21) -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition. . . From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Jul 7 09:19:46 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:19:46 +0100 Subject: "grody" Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:14 AM Subject: "grody" > This seems to be yet another discussion that goes on for a while before > someone bothers to look in OED or HDAS, but both of these sources record > _grody_ (in various spellings) back to 1965 (HDAS copying from OED in > this case), with numerous pre-Valley Girl examples. > > Jesse Sheidlower > Point, like, majorly taken. (And embrassingly so: I had the OED's 1968 Current Slang cite, albeit as 'groaty', on file, plus 1967 Wentworth and Flexner.). The plot therefore thickens. Because as Sixties teens in the UK we 'got' the Beatles and their supposed vocabulary before they hit the States. And we knew 'grotty';, and _never_, ever _grody_, _groaty_ or any other version. So: parallel/coincidental development? Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 14:04:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:04:44 -0400 Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin and a crazy keyboard that switched the Y and Z, for example. FLYKE--From LUFTHANSA MAGAZINE, July-August 2002, pg. 58, col. 3: ...their latest innovation, which recently hit the market, is the "flyke" (flying bike). PINK SHEEP--From the FINANCIAL TIMES, HOW TO SPEND IT, July 2002, pg. 14, col. 2: The self-styled "pink sheep" of the family..." GENERAL CHANG--From Dave Barry in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, July 6-7, 2002, pg. 20, col. 6: Who is General Chang? And isn't it kind of a weird honor to associate a military leader with a member of the poultry family not generally known for its courage? Would you want to be a soldier following General Chang into battle with the phrase "General Chang's chicken!" resonating in your mind? (This Barry guy is stealing my food jokes! Heck, he even stole my name!--ed.) From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sun Jul 7 15:35:54 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:35:54 -0500 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 17:39:23 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:39:23 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or meat, and some said 'brown gravy' Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is maintained almost universally by students here). Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ Dale Coye The College of New Jersey From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Jul 7 17:49:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >meat, and some said 'brown gravy' > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ (voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 7 18:22:16 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:22:16 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet > >sauces, but this meaning isn't there. I asked them what > >they'd call gravy for turkey, or meat, and some said 'brown > >gravy' > > > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" > >you mean a pizza. These two are familiar to me from my childhood in New Jersey. This sense of "gravy" is distinctly an Italian-American usage. I never heard it outside of an Italian-American home. It might be regional as well. "I was making ziti with the meat gravy..." AND "All day long the poor guy's been watching helicopters and tomato sauce. You see I had to drive over to Sandy's place, mix the stuff once and then get back to the gravy." ("Goodfellas," 1990) "Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught > >distinction is maintained almost universally by students > >here). > > > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > > The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not > sure of the vowel quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back > unrounded?--but the as /g/ (voiceless unaspirated) and > the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. These are also often heard on "The Sopranos." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 7 19:30:45 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:30:45 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <001f01c225e3$39dffe20$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #"Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This #last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you #can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) Here in Framingham, Mass. (between Boston and Worcester), there's a place called "Ty's Pies" whose products, to my disappointment, are pizza, not pastry. -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Jul 7 19:52:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excellent point. For civilized Americans (who make the caugh-cot distinction) the /a/ of at least many varieties of English English is much backer and rounder and could very well be placed at the vowel of "caught" rather than "cot." For Northern Cities Shifters (you know who you are!) of course this makes no difference since "cot" had already marched up to "cat" (nearly) and "caught" has dropped down to "cot." What a world we live in! Where are Peterson and Barney when we need them? dInIs >On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > >#I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though >#his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a >#'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. > >But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, >the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped >that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". > >-- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 7 21:29:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:29:05 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel Message-ID: I'm staying at the new Grand Hyatt, near the new SONY building in the new part of Berlin. (Marlene Dietrich Plotzed, I call it.) Then it occurred to me--this place is the same as Japan! Same new technologies and architecture. All SONY needs to do is change languages. KUNG FU SAUCE--Served at the Playoff American Sports Bar (www.play-off.tv). A Google search shows it's from McDonald's in Germany. Don't know what's in it, but I imagine the sauce has some kick to it. SWIMMING POOL--A cocktail found here. Most of the Google hits are in German. A "Swimming Pool" contains Smirnoff Vodka, Bacardi white, Blue Curacao, Ananassaft, Creme de Coco & Sahne. BAGELS--These things are everywhere. It was "beigel" in Europe in the 1800s, New York changed it to "bagel," and now it's "bagel" in Europe, also. McDonald's has a Philadelphia Bagel, a California Bagel, and a Texas Bagel. (Maybe "New York Bagel" is redundant?) Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 7 21:57:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:57:47 -0700 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language >variation: > >http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html Those are great! Thanks for sharing. I'll have to look for my photo of a shop in Cozumel that sold, among other items, "swechers." Rima From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jul 7 21:55:19 2002 From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:55:19 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, etc) Pete Farruggio At 10:39 AM 7/7/02, you wrote: >My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. > >Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >meat, and some said 'brown gravy' > >Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. > >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > >Dale Coye >The College of New Jersey > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release Date: 7/1/02 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Jul 7 22:24:28 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 18:24:28 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: Dale Coye writes: >Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >maintained almost universally by students here). > >Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ ~~~~ Pete Farruggio adds: >The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern >Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, >etc) ~~~~~~~ A friend ( 2nd generation Sicilian, & her family), raised in Brooklyn, says /rih GAWTH@/. The @ is nearly inaudible. A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 7 23:23:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:23:00 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: <087C0BB4.4E8290C5.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the #Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. #It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or bison) milk? -- Mark M. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 00:13:09 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:13:09 EDT Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2002 10:05:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings from Berlin and a crazy keyboard that switched the Y and Z, for > example. This is the standard German keyboard---my father told me about encountering them back in World War II. One might think the Germans redesigned it because a "QWERTZ" keyboard sounded properly Teutonic, but in fact the letter "y" is used in German only for foreign words whereas the letter "z" is quite common. Hence the Germans swapped the letters "y" and "z" for their convenience. An even "crazier", but actually quite sane, keyboard is the one used on the Enigma crypto machine the Germans misused in World War II. The Enigma encyphered only the twenty-six letters of the "Roman" (actually English) alphabet, so it only had 26 keys, and the "y" and '"z" were reversed from the American QWERTY standard. However, there being no semicolon key, the typist's right pinkie would be hanging in mid-air, so the Germans moved the "p" key down from the top row to give that finger something to rest on. Perhaps that change for the convenience of the pinkie was the origin of "pink sheep"? > GENERAL CHANG--From Dave Barry in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, > July 6-7, > 2002, pg. 20, col. 6: > Who is General Chang? And isn't it kind of a weird honor to associate a > military leader with a member of the poultry family not generally known for > its courage? Would you want to be a soldier following General Chang into > battle with the phrase "General Chang's chicken!" resonating in your mind? Subj: Hollandaise Sauce (1828) Date: 04/17/2002 5:30:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (General Tso's Chicken): Thanks for that article. I hadn't forgotten about Shun Lee Palace. As I posted, there's someone who's collected thousands of Chinese menus. When I check out the collection, the menus will decide the issue. Dave Barry (you should sue to make him change his name) is a complete and utter rectum, who decided that the way to copy Fart Buchwald's success was to copy Buchwald's arrogance. The only thing I will grant him is his suggested Christmas presents a few years ago, which who included industrial-size toilet-paper rolls (the kind used at the New Jersey Turnpike rest stops) from Ojserkis Paper and Janitor Supplies of Pleasantville, New Jersey. The Ojserkis (the "j" is silent) family, whom I am acquainted with, made a chunk of money off this free advertisement. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 00:17:55 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:17:55 -0400 Subject: Flyke; Pink sheep: General Chang Chicken In-Reply-To: <19e.4d9faab.2a5a3315@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #An even "crazier", but actually quite sane, keyboard is the one used on the #Enigma crypto machine the Germans misused in World War II. The Enigma #encyphered only the twenty-six letters of the "Roman" (actually English) #alphabet, so it only had 26 keys, and the "y" and '"z" were reversed from the #American QWERTY standard. However, there being no semicolon key, the #typist's right pinkie would be hanging in mid-air, so the Germans moved the #"p" key down from the top row to give that finger something to rest on. # #Perhaps that change for the convenience of the pinkie was the origin of "pink #sheep"? ????? -- Mark A. Mandel, feeling obtuse (about 150 degrees) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 00:47:31 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:47:31 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: All of these locutions are Italian-Americanisms common to immigrant populations from southern Italy. My family came from Northern Italy, and we and our compatriots did not use these sayings. The only one of these which has a somewhat broader usage is "pie," which many I-As use for pizza. But "gravy" for sauce is clearly a southern I-A-ism. The pronunciations of "ricotta" and "manicotti" said by dropping the final vowel is based on Neapolitan or other southern Italian dialects. Northern Italian immigrants pronounce these words the "proper" Italian way. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 00:59:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:59:34 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Dale Coye said: >>My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >>cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >>regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. >> >>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >>meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >>meat, and some said 'brown gravy' >> >>Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. >> >>Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >>maintained almost universally by students here). >> >>Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ > >The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel >quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ >(voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. > Right, and the crucial feature is the part of Italy emigrants came from. Around here, it's Campania, but not specifically Naples--there are villages that can be named (at least by a former student who went there to research his senior essay on the origins of the English spoken by New Haven Italian-Americans) that provided much of the impetus for what is sometimes thought of as the Wooster Street dialect--e.g. (inter alia) "apizza", pronounced a-BEETS, as previously discussed here (which now designates the list, rather than New Haven). Does anyone know whether the "maniGAWT", "riGAWT"would be widespread throughout Campania or (even more generally) southern Italy (or, for that matter, Sicily, where a larger proportion of NYC Italian speakers would have come from, I believe)? And does anyone know where the majority of Trenton Italian-Americans would trace their origins from? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:06:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:06:46 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3311177A; >charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern >Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, >etc) Ah, that answers my earlier query. Sounds like general sound changes across the relevant region. I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? >> >>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- Could this be a calque on "ragu", which (in different places) has both "(meat) gravy/stew" and "tomato sauce for pasta" meanings? Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:18:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:18:51 -0400 Subject: anachronisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > >#"Pie" is used by non-Italians. Short for "pizza pie" or "tomato pie." (This >#last is an old usage. I haven't heard it since my early childhood, but you >#can still see painted signs advertising "tomato pies" on the Jersey Shore.) > >Here in Framingham, Mass. (between Boston and Worcester), there's a >place called "Ty's Pies" whose products, to my disappointment, are >pizza, not pastry. > Speaking of pizza (we called them "pizza pies" in NYC in the 50's)-- I saw "A Beautiful Mind" last night and wondered about a couple of possible anachronisms, although as much sociological as linguistic. In the late 40's (1948, I believe) in Princeton, NJ, would it be likely for one student to ask another whether he wanted to go out for pizza (with no explanation)? In fact the implication is that a student just arrived at Princeton from West Virginia would immediately recognize pizza as what you go out for, which seems unlikely to me. And would it be likely for a young lady to vilify a young not-quite-gentleman as "Asshole" for his impertinent behavior? RHHDAS has a relevant cite from Mailer's _The Naked and the Dead_ from the same period, but I suspect it was more likely to have circulated in this era among soldiers than the grad students in mathematics (and their women friends) depicted in the film. larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 01:25:16 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:25:16 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/7/02 9:05:57 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? >> The pronunciation "abeets" is common in NY and I believe elsewhere in the US among southern Italian-Americans. However, the spelling "apizza", which one sees on pizza parlors in and around New Haven, I have never seen anywhere else. Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 01:31:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:23 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ># Look out for and record "Buffalo Bagel," which is served at the >#Hyatt. No, no relation to Buffalo wings or the city of Buffalo. >#It's made with Buffalo mozzarella cheese. > >Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or >bison) milk? > buffalo milk mozzarella is standard in Italy and I assume the rest of Europe. I don't know if buffalo meat has caught on there yet. larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 01:57:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:57:01 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 7:23 PM -0400 7/7/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: #>Is that Buffalo the city, Buffalo a brand name, or made from buffalo (or #>bison) milk? #> #buffalo milk mozzarella is standard in Italy and I assume the rest of #Europe. I don't know if buffalo meat has caught on there yet. Old World buffalo or New World bison ("buffalo" in non-zoological AmEng)? -- Just out of curiosity. -- Mark M. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:09:00 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:09:00 -0500 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro's spotting of "rock and roll" in the 1946 _Billboard_ article provides an interesting piece in the "rock and roll" puzzle, but I don't believe it necessarily demonstrates that "rock and roll" was already designating a genre of music, as, say, "rhythm and blues" did. The first clue is the isolated nature of this "rock and roll" attestation in direct reference to music. If it designated a genre of music in 1946, at least an occasional attestation in this or the following years might be expected to turn up. Also, "rock and roll" already existed in reference to vigorous (sometimes pulsating) movement. Milton "Mezz" Mezzrow's 1946 autobiography _Really the Blues_ (p.107) tells: "Dave Tough...was the only white drummer I ever heard outside of Ray Eisel, who had mastered that South Side beat. My mouth flew open wider than a trapdoor and Dave, bobbing up and down like a piston, rocking and rolling with a rhythm that wouldn't quit, grinned back at me." There is also a story plausibly bringing "rock 'em and roll 'em" back to 1927. I present it in my _Studies in Slang_, vol. 4, 1995, pp.68-69 (part of my article "Material For The Study of 'Rock and Roll'," pp. 61-73). In a 1986 letter to me a lady named Jane Robinson wrote: "...in the summer of 1927, when I was seventeen years old, I was visiting my mother's family in Philadelphia. My boy-cousin, a year or two older than I, bragged one morning about the night before. 'I was in a place where they really rock 'em and roll'em!' he said. I have never forgotten." In a follow-up letter she clarified how she was certain of the year and then added in response to my query: "'...really rock 'em and roll 'em.' I'm sure he was not referring to music. Rather, he was boasting how rough and tumble the place had been -- with noisy, tough, low-class people." Now back to the 1946 _Billboard_ attestation ("...It's right rhythmic rock and roll music that provides plenty of inspiration...Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat"), I believe the reference of "rock and roll music" here is to a lively, bouncy, pulsating beat. And considering that "rock" and "roll" in the jazz tradition both refer to copulation, the pulsating-beat reference would not be unexpected. I therefore believe that Alan Freed still deserves credit for having coined "rock and roll" in the sense we now use it. He was no doubt familiar with the words "rock and roll" from the 1948 second best-selling rhythm and blues record "Good Rockin' Tonight," which at one point contains the brief lyrics (shouted out): "Rock and roll around." In any case, he was seeking a racially neutral term for the music he was playing ("rhythm and blues" implied music that would interest primarily a black audience). "Rock and roll," with its implication of vibrant, pulsating music, fit the bill. Gerald Cohen >The earliest citation in the OED for "rock and roll" as a type of music is >dated 25 Dec. 1954; this citation was contributed by me. A few years ago >I sent an antedating from early December 1954 to the OED. > >Now I have found a much earlier citation, establishing that music from the >"race"/rhythm and blues milieu was called "rock and roll" substantially >before Alan Freed popularized the term in the early 1950s: > >1946 _Billboard_ 22 June 33 JOE LIGGINS AND HIS HONEYDRIPPERS ... _Sugar >Lump_ [title of album being reviewed] ... It's right rhythmic rock and >roll music that provides plenty of inspiration in Joe Liggins's "Sugar >Lump." ... Backside builds on an infectious bouncy beat. > >Fred Shapiro > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:54:12 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:54:12 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Rock and Roll" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Fred Shapiro's spotting of "rock and roll" in the 1946 > _Billboard_ article provides an interesting piece in the "rock and > roll" puzzle, but I > don't believe it necessarily demonstrates that "rock and roll" was > already designating a genre of music, as, say, "rhythm and blues" did. I agree that the 1946 usage of "rock and roll" referring to a type of music was isolated or at least uncommon. Freed clearly still deserves credit for popularizing the term. But this is, as far as I can see, an antedating of the OED. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 02:59:57 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:59:57 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" Message-ID: I received this question from a colleague: > A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond > lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" > (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" > as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as > told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this > expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other > sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and > "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on > some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would > appreciate any information about the word. I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? Fred Shapiro From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 8 10:16:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:16:26 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in that form. I've heard kicking tail, kick a little tail, and, of course, kicking ass--for folks that need a little motivation. Rick |o| -----Original Message----- |o| From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf |o| Of Fred Shapiro |o| Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 23:00 |o| To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU |o| Subject: Query About "Kicktales" |o| |o| |o| I received this question from a colleague: |o| |o| > A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond |o| > lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" |o| > (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" |o| > as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as |o| > told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this |o| > expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other |o| > sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and |o| > "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on |o| > some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would |o| > appreciate any information about the word. |o| |o| I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? |o| |o| Fred Shapiro |o| From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 8 12:37:23 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:37:23 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On 7/7/02 17:55, "Peter Farruggio" wrote: > The pronunciations of ricotta and manicotti are straight from Southern > Italy, common to a variety of regional dialects (like Neopolitan, Sicilian, > etc) and On 7/7/02 20:47, "Steve Boatti" wrote: > The pronunciations of "ricotta" and "manicotti" said by dropping the final > vowel is based on Neapolitan or other southern Italian dialects. Northern > Italian immigrants pronounce these words the "proper" Italian way. This a fact worth spreading. In New York City there are many non-Italian-Americans and Italian-Americans who believe "mootzuhrell" and "manuhcaught" are the *only* Italian pronunciations of such words, and they judge you disdainfully if you do not conform. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 8 12:41:11 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 05:41:11 -0700 Subject: Hard line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft > copy". This could count > as a retronym. I heard "soft copy" to refer to an e-document for the first time fairly recently. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 14:44:54 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:44:54 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <1ac.4bace14.2a59d6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: My mother and aunt, whose parents immigrated from Sicily, pronounce ricotta something like rih-GuOTH-uh, and manicotti something like mah-nih-GuOTH-ee. (That TH-sound is really something like an almost-unaspirated "d" to "th" affricate -- if that makes any sense -- and the "uo" is basically an open "o" with a soft "u" onset.) They grew up in Lawrence, MA. Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional variations of Italian-American pronunciation. Joanne Despres From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 8 14:51:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:51:37 -0400 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 11:36 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 8 15:11:45 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:11:45 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D296D26.14732.5DA543@localhost> Message-ID: My Mother in-law, whose parents also immigrated from sicily in the early part of last century, doesn't have the typical New Jersey pronunciation of manicotti and ricotta nor does she say gravy for tomato sauce. I wonder if there is some class issue here since she often talks about how her mother spoke "pure" italian not sicilian or something. BTW the so-called "New Jersey" pronunciation extends at least to south Philly. I always thought it was a way for the merchants in the Italian Market (9th and Christian streets) to make fun of the Society Hill types who sometimes shopped there by making them ask for things like "gabagool" (capicola). Ed --- "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > My mother and aunt, whose parents immigrated from > Sicily, > pronounce ricotta something like rih-GuOTH-uh, and > manicotti > something like mah-nih-GuOTH-ee. (That TH-sound is > really > something like an almost-unaspirated "d" to "th" > affricate -- if that > makes any sense -- and the "uo" is basically an open > "o" with a > soft "u" onset.) They grew up in Lawrence, MA. > > Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT > restaurant and > heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top > "mootzarella." > That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, > though I'm not > sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a > friend of mine, a > non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives > in the "Pasta > Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe > the Sopranos > episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own > mother's family > definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, > though. In any case, > the point is, I think there have to be a couple of > different regional > variations of Italian-American pronunciation. > > Joanne Despres __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 15:24:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:24:51 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Campbell's editorial is embarrassingly inaccurate in a number of ways. (E.g., DEFECATE is not a word borrowed from French; the language of 11th century England was English, NOT German; etc.) It would be a good exam question for a History of English course to ask a class to point out all the errors in this little piece. In a message dated Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Duane Campbell writes: >On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 22:18:29 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" > >> My 15-year-old grandson asked his mother a question that she passed >> on >> to me to answer, and I don't know the answer. How did bad words get >> to >> be bad? > >A few months ago at a village council meeting a councilman in a Dickie's >shirt and Cat hat told a citizen to get her "fat ass" out of the room. >Our local newspaper was just stunned by these words and editorialized >about the collapse of civilization. I was allowed a guest editorial, >which I attach below. > >D > >++++++++++++++++ > >On September 27, 1066, William, Duke of Normandy, landed at Pevensey, in >the south of England. As a direct result of this thousand-year-old event, >The Daily Review in a recent story had to parenthetically mask a three >letter word (which, incidentally, was not a deleted expletive as reported >but rather a deleted noun) referring to a local resident's derriere and >its purported steatopygic condition. >Normandy is in France, and although William came from an immigrant family >(Norman is a corruption of Norsemen), he spoke French. After conquering >the German-speaking English (from Angles, a German tribe who had arrived >five hundred years earlier), William brought in his French cronies to >share in the spoils. There was no English language at this time, making >degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than >they are today. >It took two centuries for French to meld with German into English. >English is so rich in synonyms because it is a mixture of two different >languages, and often both French and German words for the same thing were >incorporated into it, but not necessarily with the same value. >During the formative centuries, the nobility spoke French, and German was >the language of the conquered peasants. As both groups came to speak the >same newly evolved language, words with French roots acquired a patrician >cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French >word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). >For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a >family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym >without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In >like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in >French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are >profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of >disapprobation originally describing the lower class). >For the same reason, today we eat pork from swine and beef from cows. >German speakers tended the farm animals and gave them their names, but >the French upper class ate the meat -- porc and boeuf as well as venison, >poultry, and mutton. >In the Bible the 3d Commandment proscribes using the name of God in >inappropriate ways. Aside from that, all other profanity is a cultural >phenomenon, essentially a tool of class discrimination. "Dirty" words >have no intrinsic taint. They have power only as we choose to give it to >them, and condemnation of certain words in favor of others meaning >exactly the same thing is historically elitist. >Had someone in Windham been asked to remove her derriere, it would have >been quite proper, even quaint, as far as the language is concerned. It >strikes me that a great deal of fuss is being made over a linguistic >anachronism. > From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 15:41:50 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020707145225.02a46640@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: My mother and aunt do not call pizza "pie" or even "pizza pie" -- just "pizza." And I'd NEVER heard the word "gravy" used of tomato sauce until I lived in the Middle Atlantic. At first it struck me as a non-Italian's misconception of an unfamiliar food! Joanne From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 15:41:50 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <20020708151145.42989.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The more standardized pronunciations could be the result of class consciousness in many cases, I suppose. I don't think of my mother and aunt as particularly uncomfortable with their Sicilian roots, though. If they've changed their parents' Italianized pronunciations, it would probably be in the direction of anglicization, or maybe orthographic pronunciation, rather than improved Italianization. I notice that my mother, who's the younger of the two, has a slightly more assimilated pronunciation and outlook than my aunt (she married a non-Italian, for example, and she pronounces certain words like "sandwich" in the American fashion, whereas my aunt calls it a "SANGwich," a partly Anglicized variant of my grandmother's "sangWEEchu."). My impression of immigrant families in general is that the elder children tend to hew more to the native ways, linguistically and culturally, than the younger ones. Joanne From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Jul 8 15:44:48 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:44:48 -0400 Subject: Kung Fu Sauce, Swimming Pool, Buffalo Bagel Message-ID: Interesting to find bagels in Germany: in 1975-6 on a Fulbright in the federal republic, travelling all over, I never saw a one. Must be "The Americanization of Europe" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:40:14 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:40:14 -0700 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D297A7E.22107.91C48A@localhost> Message-ID: I'm old enough to remember when pizza was a novelty (the early 50s, at least in Oregon). It was something you got only in a full-service Italian restaurant, and it was called "pizza pie." The first I heard otherwise was when my aunt (who expected everyone to know as much of every foreign language as she did) expressed annoyance at the lyrics of a then-popular song, "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore," saying that "pizza pie" was "incorrect"--it should be just "pizza." Many years later I read somewhere (can't remember where now--Weinreich, Languages in Contact??) that the Italian community in Tampa, FL (I think), had reborrowed the item from English as "La Pizzapaia." Or maybe it wasn't actually reborrowed, but just borrowed, by a community whose roots lay outside the parts of Italy where pizza originated. Peter Mc. --On Monday, July 8, 2002 11:41 AM -0400 "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > My mother and aunt do not call pizza "pie" or even "pizza pie" -- > just "pizza." And I'd NEVER heard the word "gravy" used of > tomato sauce until I lived in the Middle Atlantic. At first it struck > me as a non-Italian's misconception of an unfamiliar food! > > Joanne **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:51:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:51:33 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <3D296D26.14732.5DA543@localhost> Message-ID: At 10:44 AM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > >Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and >heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." >That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not >sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a >non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta >Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos >episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family >definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, >the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional >variations of Italian-American pronunciation. > I've heard that [u] vowel a lot in south-central Connecticut, but it's usually mootsaRELL, without the final vowel. Somehow "mootzarella" sounds like code-mixing. And it's not infrequently truncated to just plain "moots". I'm sure Alice will concur. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 16:50:12 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:50:12 EDT Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/2002 7:33:05 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << At 6:49 PM -0400 7/3/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/3/02 9:16:07 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< "Fuck," in the sexual sense, has no formal equivalent >> > >as a verb, the formal equivalent is "have sexual intercourse with" Not in "s/he really loves to have sexual intercourse with" >as a noun, the formal equivalent is "sexual intercourse" Not in "s/he's a good (talented, enthusiastic...) sexual intercourse" or "that poor dumb sexual intercourse never knew what hit him/her" Demand "fuck"; accept no substitutions! >> Larry's first putative counterexample results simply from the fact that FUCK has a somewhat broader morphosyntactic distribution than the formal equivalent SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In this case, one would have to say, "He's good at sexual intercourse." But SEXUAL INTERCOURSE is still the formal equivalent. (The fact that it lacks in connotative force is irrelevant; that is usually the case between formal and informal equivalents, e.g., SHIT and EXCREMENT.) Larry's second putative counterexample is not a formal context, and therefore a formal equivalent certainly is inappropriate. Indeed, one could argue that FUCK in this context is a totally different meaning from FUCK 'sexual intercourse'--indeed, it means something closer to what SHIT or ASSHOLE or CLUCK would mean in this context. I would argue that the formal equivalent of FUCK in this example (as well as SHIT or ASSHOLE or CLUCK) is FOOL. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 16:54:44 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:54:44 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <6FA0FEF1.0E02EFBE.0CBB392C@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:24 AM -0400 7/8/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Campbell's editorial is embarrassingly inaccurate in a number of >ways. (E.g., DEFECATE is not a word borrowed from French; the >language of 11th century England was English, NOT German; etc.) It >would be a good exam question for a History of English course to ask >a class to point out all the errors in this little piece. > Several such errors come down to the indiscriminate use of "German" for "Germanic". larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Jul 8 16:58:51 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:58:51 -0400 Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually intercoursing her. John Baker From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:00:16 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:00:16 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 10:44 AM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >> >>Last weekend, I ordered a pizza in a southern CT restaurant and >>heard the waitress pronounce the cheese on top "mootzarella." >>That pronunciation strikes me as New Jerseyish, though I'm not >>sure whether it's Italian-American (the mother of a friend of mine, a >>non-Italian who grew up in Jersey City and now lives in the "Pasta >>Triangle" region of Essex County, where I believe the Sopranos >>episodes are set, pronounces it that way). My own mother's family >>definitely doesn't use that "oo" pronunciation, though. In any case, >>the point is, I think there have to be a couple of different regional >>variations of Italian-American pronunciation. >> >I've heard that [u] vowel a lot in south-central Connecticut, but >it's usually mootsaRELL, without the final vowel. Somehow >"mootzarella" sounds like code-mixing. And it's not infrequently >truncated to just plain "moots". I'm sure Alice will concur. > Not sure there...the folks at Scarpellino's all have /o/ not /u/, though they do truncate /motsarel/ to /mots/. I will say, though, that the /o/ isn't fronted as much as it would be in a native English lexical item. Alice From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:13:15 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:13:15 EDT Subject: formal equivalents for bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:56:17 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually intercoursing her. John Baker >> Exactly, you can say HE IS HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER (or HIM). Formal and informal equivalents should not need to have exactly the same morphosyntactic possibilities. If we require exact morphosyntactic equivalence, wouldn't few pairs pass the test? ANUS and ASSHOLE come to mind, though even these two cannot always appear in the same environments. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:17:41 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:17:41 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:53:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Several such errors come down to the indiscriminate use of "German" for "Germanic". >> yes--for that matter, English is still "Germanic" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:35:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:35:29 -0400 Subject: formal equivalents for bad words In-Reply-To: <28.292b620d.2a5b222b@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:13 PM -0400 7/8/02, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:56:17 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ><< And the formal equivalent for the transitive verb "to fuck"? The >alleged formal equivalent is intransitive: You can say that he is having >sexual intercourse with her, but you cannot say that he is sexually >intercoursing her. > > >John Baker >> > >Exactly, you can say HE IS HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH HER (or HIM). > >Formal and informal equivalents should not need to have exactly the same >morphosyntactic possibilities. It's more than a morphosyntactic distinction; there are correlated semantic distinctions that even extend to "X made love with Y" vs. "X made love to Y", the former a better (though not exact) match for "X fucked Y". This was all discussed in a classic late '60s paper by the late Quang Phuc Dong, later reprinted in the 1973 festschrift for McCawley, _Studies Out in Left Field_, and also in the paper "Pricks and Chicks" by Robert Baker, presumably no relation to John, which was reprinted in various anthologies on feminism and linguistics. The basic idea, although the examples may need tweaking to cover social and linguistic changes over the last three decades, is that the transitive verbs and their asymmetric prepositional analogues (X made love to Y), are interpreted with the subject as penetrator/actor/initiator (Quang and Baker argued that X had to be male, which is clearly wrong now and was probably wrong then) and the object as penetratee/passive partner (depending on how THESE terms are defined). Still not quite right, but the defensible claim is that the two terms in "X fucked/screwed Y" aren't taken to be interchangeable, while those in e.g. "X and Y fucked/had sexual intercourse" or "X made love with Y", "X had sexual intercourse with Y", etc. are much more likely to be. This is, Quang argued, why "Fuck you", "Now I'm really fucked", "They screwed you this time", and so on have the metaphorical extensions they do, while the "symmetric" expressions never have such understandings involving being mistreated, beaten, or taken advantage of. All of which argues that the distinction between "X fucked Y" and "X had sexual intercourse with Y" are not semantically interchangeable. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 17:42:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:42:24 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup Message-ID: Greetings again from Berlin. There's gotta be a good cabaret here somewhere. Cindy Adams of the New York Post has a nametag, but hasn't shown up. If she does, I'll ask her about her phrase "Only in New York" and tell her it's not hers. "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's his. He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put it on the front page, I asked for a specific date, and he said January 1985. Fred Shapiro and Andy Smith should let me know if they need the exact date for their books, and I'll look it up when I get back. HOT DOG MIT ROSTWIEBELSALZ UND GURKE--Found here. Costs 3.20 Euro. ALASKA-SEELECHS--Found at the Nordsee restaurant here. It does NOT come with "jojos." ANDY'S DINER & BAR BERLIN This is right opposite the new SONY building. It's gotta be good evidence that Andy SMith, author of KETCHUP and editor of the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, is leading a double life. Two stickers were in the window-- ANDY'S DINER HOME MADE KETCHUP ANDY'S DINER SPEXIAL KETCHUP ohne Konservierungstoffe Zutaten: Gewurze Tomatenmach Glukosesirup Brandweinessig modifizierte Starke From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 8 17:48:35 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:48:35 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #ANDY'S DINER SPEXIAL KETCHUP Should that be SPEIAL, filtered through the difference between a German and a US keyboard? -- Mark M. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 8 17:55:27 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:55:27 -0700 Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > HOT DOG MIT ROSTWIEBELSALZ UND GURKE--Found here. Costs 3.20 Euro. Maybe Rostzwiebelsalz? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 19:38:08 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:38:08 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <10.2169de0c.2a5b2335@aol.com> Message-ID: While the inaccuracies in Duane Campbell's editorial might be serious to a college linguistics student, he does, of course, make a valid point about the prestige value of one family of English words vis-a-vis another (whether you identify those families as "French" or, more broadly, "Latin and Latin-derived," "German" or "Germanic"). Actually, I'd probably describe the inaccuracies as oversimplifications, which I assume were deliberate and intended to make his explanation intelligible to very unsophisticated readers who might not have the patience to wade through unfamiliar terminology. This is the way most adults talk to kids, which was probably why he sent it, right? Joanne From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 20:09:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:09:48 EDT Subject: Ham Sandwich & Andy's Ketchup Message-ID: In a message dated 7/8/02 1:43:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" > I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's his. > He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put it on the > front page, This sounds to me like an incorrect quotation. There is a legal proverb "A prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.": It is a satirical description of the grand jury system. A lawyer (I think it was William T. Barker of Sonnenschein Nath and Rosenthal in Chicago, wtb at sonnenschein.com) told me that if the grand jury were not specifically mentioned in the Constitution (5th Amendment, of all places, and maybe elsewhere), it would long since have been declared unconstitutional. In this context "INDICT a ham sandwich" makes sense. I can't imagine a context in which "PROSECUTE a ham sandwich" is meaningful. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 21:09:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:09:01 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <3D29B1E0.5365.16A25AA@localhost> Message-ID: At 3:38 PM -0400 7/8/02, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >While the inaccuracies in Duane Campbell's editorial might be >serious to a college linguistics student, he does, of course, make a >valid point about the prestige value of one family of English words >vis-a-vis another (whether you identify those families as "French" >or, more broadly, "Latin and Latin-derived," "German" or >"Germanic"). Actually, I'd probably describe the inaccuracies as >oversimplifications, which I assume were deliberate and intended to >make his explanation intelligible to very unsophisticated readers >who might not have the patience to wade through unfamiliar >terminology. This is the way most adults talk to kids, which was >probably why he sent it, right? > Well, yes, but without trying to be overly picky, I would argue (as presumably Ron would) that even kids (at least older ones) might be able to appreciate the difference between saying cats are a kind of dog and saying cats are (like dogs) a kind of mammal. Even though "Germanic" is a superordinate rather than basic level language label, children of a certain age can be expected to recognize the usefulness of such superordinates ("vegetable", "furniture", "jewelry"), and to deal even with cases in which the superordinate label sounds troublingly like one of its basic level co-hyponyms. I think that's probably wiser than assuming kids can handle such unfamiliar terminology in some fields (relatives vs. parents, mammals vs. dogs) but not in others (Germanic vs. German), although I acknowledge that a one-sentence definition, probably involving the family tree metaphor, would be advisable. larry From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 8 21:43:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:43:54 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <4D4142EE.0C1ABD40.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "PROSECUTING A HAM SANDWICH" > I put the question to Sol Wachtler today, and he laughed. Yes, it's > his. He said that Marcia Kramer, then of the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, put > it on the front page, I asked for a specific date, and he said January > 1985. Fred Shapiro and Andy Smith should let me know if they need the > exact date for their books, and I'll look it up when I get back. Yes, I would be very interested in the specifics. Currently I have 1 Feb. 1985 in the New York Times for the "ham sandwich" quote. Of course, Jim Landau is right that it's "indict a ham sandwich," not "prosecute a ham sandwich." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Jul 8 22:10:48 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:10:48 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I take your point, though it seems to me that the contrast between German and Old English isn't quite as great as that between a dog and a cat. I'd guess the relationship between a Maine coon and a tiger would be more comparable. Now, if you were trying to describe a Maine coon to an aboriginal Asian whose exposure to the feline species was limited to tigers, it might not be so far out to call a Maine coon a kind of tiger. But I recognize that we're not talking about aborigines here, and that it's always best to assume that our tutees can handle the facts. Joanne From stamasi at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Mon Jul 8 23:25:28 2002 From: stamasi at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Susan Tamasi) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:25:28 -0500 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: My family from Princeton also has the /rih GAWT/, /man ih GAWT/ pronunciation. However, they are not from southern Italy. Many of the Italian immigrants in Princeton are from Petronella, Molaise which is about 2 hours southeast of Rome and 2 hours northeast of Naples. (In fact, Petronella and Princeton are sister cities). I've asked about the Italian-American population in Trenton (in the 50s and 60s), but my father only replied that they were "from all over." I do remember my family referring to "pizza pie," but it was infrequent (and usually done with a put-on Italian accent). The regular term was just "pizza." I didn't hear "gravy" until recently, and that was by a woman of southern Italian heritage who lives in Yonkers. -Susan Tamasi University of Georgia ---------Included Message---------- >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:59:34 -0400 >From: "Laurence Horn" >Reply-To: "American Dialect Society" >To: >Subject: Re: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? > >>Dale Coye said: >>>My summer class was instructing me on some of the finer points of Italian >>>cuisine--they were mostly from the Trenton area. Don't know if these are >>>regionalisms or Italian-Americanisms. >>> >>>Gravy 'tomato sauce for pasta'-- DARE has a meaning =sweet sauces, but this >>>meaning isn't there. I asked them what they'd call gravy for turkey, or >>>meat, and some said 'brown gravy' >>> >>>Pie 'a pizza'. When you say, "We had a pie last night" you mean a pizza. >>> >>>Ricotta- pronounced /rih GAWT/-- with open o (cot/caught distinction is >>>maintained almost universally by students here). >>> >>>Manicotti-- same thing /man ih GAWT/ >> >>The latter two sound familiar for New Haven also. I'm not sure of the vowel >>quality (/a/ vs /ao/)--perhaps it's back unrounded?--but the as /g/ >>(voiceless unaspirated) and the loss of the final /i/ is the norm here. >> > >Right, and the crucial feature is the part of Italy emigrants came >from. Around here, it's Campania, but not specifically Naples--there >are villages that can be named (at least by a former student who went >there to research his senior essay on the origins of the English >spoken by New Haven Italian-Americans) that provided much of the >impetus for what is sometimes thought of as the Wooster Street >dialect--e.g. (inter alia) "apizza", pronounced a-BEETS, as >previously discussed here (which now designates the list, rather than >New Haven). Does anyone know whether the "maniGAWT", "riGAWT"would >be widespread throughout Campania or (even more generally) southern >Italy (or, for that matter, Sicily, where a larger proportion of NYC >Italian speakers would have come from, I believe)? And does anyone >know where the majority of Trenton Italian-Americans would trace >their origins from? > >larry > > ---------End of Included Message---------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 8 23:21:52 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 07/06/2002 8:37:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes an article which is very interesting, but which, in my opionion, is a red herring. > words with French roots acquired a patrician > cachet while German root words for the same thing were rude (a French > word originally describing the unpolished ways of the peasants). > For that reason I can speak of a lady's derriere with impunity, even in a > family newspaper, but I cannot refer to it by its Germanic synonym > without it being obliterated by the well known parenthesized cliche. In > like manner I can defecate, copulate or condemn, as long as I do it in > French. The same words derived from German would not be allowed. They are > profane, coarse, or vulgar (all incidentally French words of > disapprobation originally describing the lower class). (I don't care about "German" versus "Germanic" in the article. The meaning is clear and in a popular article probably more understandable to the lay reader.) Not entirely correct. According to MWCD10, "condemn" and "damn" both come via French from Latin "damnare". "Piss" is also from French---compare the name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". "bastard" also comes from French, but its euphemism "love child" is from two Germanic words. One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" but which do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. There must be some other explanation for bad words. Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the following five classes: 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a Greek rendering of the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). Note that the descriptive words "profane", "swear", and "oath" are also words from religion. It is interesting that there are "four-letter" euphemisms for the above: darn, heck, gol-darn or gosh-darn, jeez. 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should include "douche-bag" 3. Sex---make up your own list 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. In South Africa they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely "Kaffir", equally effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the word is from the Arabic). What categories 1, 2, 3, and 5 have in common is very simple---the subjects they are used to discuss are taboo, or more exactly there are many and various taboos about discussing them among English speakers. Hence there are sub-languages within English for discussing these subjects: one for male locker rooms, one (using words such as "derrierie") for polite socieity, etc. There may be a sub-language for female locker rooms, e.g. I know of a women's dormitory where one's period was called "George". I will leave it to the real linguists on the list to apply the proper jargon to this idea. As for 4), I will discuss it later if anyone's interested. Other languages have corresponding taboos and resulting sublanguages. Two examples:: Yiddish "schmuck" (penis and also used. lke English "prick", as a derogatory term for a man). French "merde" ("shit"). Some notes about 1) religion. The Commandment "You shall not take the Name of the Eternal your God in vain", when interpreted as a prohibition of blasphemy, is the only formally codified taboo in English. (I believe Catholics consider this to be the "Second" Commandment.) Swearing is also referred to as "cursing" (and its euphemism "cussing") which is interesting, because "cursing" adds a term generally applying to witchcraft rather than to Judaism or Christianity to a field for which most of the other descriptors are from religion. Conclusion: "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation among polite/civilized/proper people. > There was no English language at this time, making > degrees in English literature in the 11th Century even more useless than > they are today. A math major would have been even more useless. During the entire Plantagenet period there were only two mathematicians in all of England---Roger Bacon and Geoffrey Chaucer. - Jim Landau P.S. Rump Parilament? London derriere. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jul 9 00:40:14 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:40:14 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a separate category? Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau > Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the > following five classes: > > 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a > Greek rendering of > the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). Note > that the descriptive > words "profane", "swear", and "oath" are also words from > religion. It is > interesting that there are "four-letter" euphemisms for > the above: darn, > heck, gol-darn or gosh-darn, jeez. > > 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should > include "douche-bag" > > 3. Sex---make up your own list > > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most > obvious. In South Africa > they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely > "Kaffir", equally > effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the > word is from the > Arabic). From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 00:49:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:49:38 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 07/08/2002 8:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a > separate category? My intention was to file them under 3) sex, but since I said "make up your own list" you are free to do as you wish. Army definition of the "buddy system"----one buddy goes to town on a pass, gets two blow jobs,comes back to base and gives his buddy one. A colleague of mine had to be talked out of putting on a trouble report "queer electron that keeps blowing fuses". And then there is the friend of mine who insists that the plural of "recto" (he ia an amateur publisher) is "rectoes"---he refuses to consider "recti" because it is too easily interpreted as the plural of "rectum". - Jim Landau From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Jul 9 01:34:31 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 18:34:31 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <3f.e04de6b.2a5b8d22@aol.com> Message-ID: I see. It seems that the social taboo on sex is different from that on homosexuality, so they should be covered separately. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau > > In a message dated 07/08/2002 8:38:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > > > Where does fag, etc., fit into this list, or should that be a > > separate category? > > My intention was to file them under 3) sex, but since I > said "make up your > own list" you are free to do as you wish. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 02:08:59 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:08:59 EDT Subject: Read with pleasure: thanks for the wonderful new book Message-ID: To all ADS-ers and Friends, I'm delighted that Larry Horn appreciates the book mentioned below, and I thank him for all the praise. Aside from Allen Walker Read himself and Dick Bailey, no one did more to bring this book to our hands than Charles Carson, the Managing Editor of American Dialect Society Publications. Charles's work was extraordinary, even for him. Moreover, the unusual size of the book meant that he had to do somehow squeeze in all of the extra work--above and beyond all of his other duties. Charles has probably contributed more to the success of American Dialect Society publications in the past decade than any other person. I am grateful for all his good work. Sincerely, Ron Butters Chief Editor, American Dialect Society Publications In a message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:50:28 -0400 Larry Horn writes: >Subject: Read with pleasure: thanks for the wonderful new book >I'm sure every ADS member on the list (and that's all of us, right?) >will share my enthusiasm over the Allen Walker Read compendium that >just came in the mail (ADS Pub. #26, _Milestones in the History of >English in America_). It contains, inter (many) alia, AWR's >groundbreaking expose of OK (the real story and the folklore) and >his...er, muckraking analysis of the F-word, along with >autobiographical sketches, letters from Tom Paikeday and others, >various papers on British and (or vs.) U.S. English, and the >impressive bibliography of AWR's publications. Kudos to all >involved, including Ron Butters (for the ADS connection), Richard >Bailey (editor), Frank Abate (indexer), and my former undergraduate >student Anne Curzan for their individual and collective help in >bringing this to us, and of course most of all to the nonpareil Allen >Walker Read himself. > >Larry >> From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Jul 9 02:37:02 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:37:02 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" , > dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes an article which is very interesting, but > which, in > my opionion, is a red herring. Thank you for bring this topic finally to content. > Not entirely correct. According to MWCD10, "condemn" and "damn" > both come > via French from Latin "damnare". True. But I am not certain that it hits the mark. "Damn" has always had a use in standard, socially acceptable English. There is a difference between "he was damned to a life of wandering" and "Damn you!" The coarse language of 12th century peasants is mostly undocumented. But I would suspect, with absolutely no academic credentials to support it, that the latter use of "damn" is more closely related to the contemporary German "verdammt," which is pretty much as bad as German gets, than to the usage in etymological dictionaries. > "Piss" is also from > French---compare the > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And "pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > "bastard" also comes > from > French, but its euphemism "love child" is from two Germanic words. But "love child" is a very recent coinage. I don't think it can be applied as an argument for the historical tradition of bad words. And "bastard" is not in itself a bad word, when used to describe a child born outside of marriage. The aforementioned William was called William the Bastard. As such it is descriptive. The pejorative nature of it comes not from the word or the derivation of the word but from the circumstances. > One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" > but which > do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. And I think that would be worth exploring. I know that, as an American living in Gemany and speaking passable German, it was very unsatisfying to try to swear in German. Though you could say things that were insulting, there were simply no words that carried the emotional release of "F--k you!" On a cultural level, the best you might do is something equivalent to "Go piss up a rope." > Let's see. Most English "bad words" fall into the following five > classes: > > 1. Religious---damn, Hell, God-damn, Jesus H. Christ (a Greek > rendering of > the Hebrew/Aramaic for "Joshua the Annointed"). And I would point out that these are generally considered rather mild profanity, much of which can be said in prime time television. The exception would be "God damn," which is scripturally prohibited. > 2. Excretion---piss, shit, and I suppose we should include > "douche-bag" But urinate, defecate and ... well, whatever ... are perfectly acceptable in context. I think this supports my argument. > 3. Sex---make up your own list Copulate, vagina, phallus, fellatio, cunnilingus. All of which, in a mixed audience and in an appropriate context, would not be blinked at. Use the Germanic equivalents in the same conversation and you will not be invited back. Believe me, I know. > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of "schweinhund. " > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. A whole different situation. It is the cultural situation that makes the words bad, not the derivation. > What categories 1, 2, 3, and 5 have in common is very simple---the > subjects > they are used to discuss are taboo, or more exactly there are many > and > various taboos about discussing them among English speakers. I agree, and I disagree. (!) The religious taboo is very strictly defined: You shall not take the word of God in vain. And I specifically exempted that from my article. (2) You can talk about excetion in context with no difficulty. I am becoming an old person, and believe me, they talk about excretion. But in proper company they use words from Romance languages, not Germanic. Q.E.D. (3) Sex. Again, use Latin. Not German. (5) An entirely differently category. I will agree that the derivation of any particular word is less important than the modern social use of any given word. > there are > sub-languages within English for discussing these subjects: one for > male > locker rooms agreed. Male locker rooms tend to be coarse. ,>one (using words such as "derrierie") for polite > socieity, etc. Sorry, but I think you are making my point. > Some notes about 1) religion. The Commandment "You shall not take > the Name > of the Eternal your God in vain", when interpreted as a prohibition > of > blasphemy Well (and here I will make my sole claim of better credentials than the rest of you), no. It is closely related to the "false witness" rule and goes back to an ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d. > Conclusion: > "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation > among > polite/civilized/proper people. Exactly. The question is, How did they become taboo. The concepts are acceptable. It's the words. D From mkuha at BSU.EDU Tue Jul 9 02:35:42 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:35:42 -0500 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's nice that the "I'll buy almost anything" part of the sign is visible, because it provides a clue that the establishment doesn't sell hawks or hawk supplies, or have clientele consisting of hawks, but is actually a hock shop, probably owned by someone who participates in the low vowel merge. Thanks to everyone for the positive responses on- and off-list! -Mai > From: "Baker, John" > > What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? > > John Baker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] > > Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language > variation: > > http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html > > I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. > The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There > are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the > Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! ... > > -Mai From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 03:24:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:24:26 -0400 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") In-Reply-To: <20020708.223710.-11581.8.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0400 7/8/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" > >> "Piss" is also from >> French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". manikin-pis, in the heart of Brussels, so not technically French, but... Anyway, perhaps a clearer case is Fr. "pissenlit" for 'dandelion', literally piss-in-bed, from its presumed effect on the consumer. We borrowed the 'lion's tooth' rather than the 'piss-in-bed' metaphor, given the choice. > >Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My >mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would >never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no >inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And >"pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", "pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", "piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using "piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. It's related, of course, to the story about the soldier on leave who locked up his fuckin rifle, said goodbye to his fuckin sergeant, left his fuckin barracks, took a fuckin bus into town, went into a fuckin bar, had a few fuckin drinks, picked up a fuckin girl, took her to a fuckin hotel, and had sexual intercourse with her. (I'm sure others on the list could provide more eloquent tellings of the tale.) The moral is that you can't really use metaphorical extensions or compounds to determine how "bad" (or powerful) a word is for a given speaker. larry From kkmetron at COX.NET Tue Jul 9 07:57:56 2002 From: kkmetron at COX.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:57:56 -0700 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") Message-ID: Much obliged for shedding light on a passage from Finnegans Wake (p. 397, lines 21-25): ...prompt Marcus Lyons [New Testament Mark the Lion]...to pass the teeth... when it so happened they were all sycamore [sicker]...for all possabled.... The references are to "Lyons", "teeth", and (as Roland McHugh glosses as "pissabed" in _Annotations to Finnegans Wake_) "possabled." Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Bad words (specifically "piss") At 10:37 PM -0400 7/8/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" > >> "Piss" is also from >> French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". manikin-pis, in the heart of Brussels, so not technically French, but... Anyway, perhaps a clearer case is Fr. "pissenlit" for 'dandelion', literally piss-in-bed, from its presumed effect on the consumer. We borrowed the 'lion's tooth' rather than the 'piss-in-bed' metaphor, given the choice. > >Again, agreed. But "piss" is not really such a bad word. My >mother-in-law, a fine Methodist woman, may she rest in peace, who would >never allow a bad word or a bottle of alcohol in her house, felt no >inhibition in calling someone who gained her disfavor a "pisspot". And >"pisshouse" was a common rural name for the outdoor convenience. > I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", "pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", "piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using "piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. It's related, of course, to the story about the soldier on leave who locked up his fuckin rifle, said goodbye to his fuckin sergeant, left his fuckin barracks, took a fuckin bus into town, went into a fuckin bar, had a few fuckin drinks, picked up a fuckin girl, took her to a fuckin hotel, and had sexual intercourse with her. (I'm sure others on the list could provide more eloquent tellings of the tale.) The moral is that you can't really use metaphorical extensions or compounds to determine how "bad" (or powerful) a word is for a given speaker. larry From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 9 07:45:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:45:34 -0400 Subject: Query About "Kicktales" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? I haven't. But since there haven't been many responses, I'll make a few observations, of questionable relevance. (1) "Kicktale" as usually encountered on the Web is an unusual variant -- likely just a spelling error, I think -- of "kicktail" which appears on brief glance to be a part of a skateboard (I think a part which can be kicked in performing various tricks). (2) "Kicktail" appears as a perversion of "cocktail" in at least one jocular context: "That last kicktail had a cock like a mule!" (3) I've heard occasionally the expression "cock story" meaning "dirty story": this usage I would associate with roughly the same dialects which would have "get some cock" = "get some pussy", but I think "cock" here is best approximated by "f*ck", i.e. "sex". The expression "cock tale" = "dirty story" (with double-entendre) is expected although I don't recall hearing it myself. Google search shows a number of instances of this "cock tale", mixed with possible errors for "cocktail" etc. "Kick tale" could be euphemistic for this (with another possible double-entendre, "kick-tail" = "kick-ass" meaning "really impressive" or so) ... assuming that the jokes in question are 'dirty' ones. (4) The superficial interpretation of "kicktale" would seem to be "fun story" (cf. "I got a kick out of that story") or perhaps "story with a kick [i.e. with a striking punchline]". I note that the book in question was not published in New York. I speculate that "kicktale" = "joke" might reflect some combination of (3) and (4) above. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 11:37:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:37:53 -0400 Subject: Managersalat Message-ID: Greetings again from Berlin. Professor Ruth Wedgwood of Yale Law School just spoke at this conference. (Gabriel Bach, who prosecuted Adolf Eichmann, was very moving.) I asked Wedgwood if she knew Fred Shapiro (Mr. Rock and Roll), and she said "Yes, of course. He's a good guy." My last post was made while someone was waiting for the computer. I apologize for spelling errors and the shorthand for "prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich." Wachtler said that his one regret was that he did say "corned beef." Cindy Adams arrived last night, and I've yet to speak to her about "Only in New York." Check her columns at www.nypost.com...NYC had the CowParade. Berlin is in its BearParade phase now. MANAGERSALAT--Seen at a mall here in Potzdammerploz. Is the Chef Salad a Manager Salad in Germany? AFRIKA QUEEN--Served at Mr. CLou, and it's Kiwi, Orange, Ananas, Banane. PIG EARS--I was told that this is a pastry name, like our elephant ears. PREGNANT OYSTER--Nickname for the architecture of the House of Cultures of the World Congress Center building. WASHING MACHINE--Nickname for the architecture of the House of the Chancellor. GOLDEN ELSIE--The Victory Column, a Berlin phallic symbol that's become a cruising area, according to an article in THE EX-BERLINER --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC.: USA TODAY was handed out at this Hyatt--in Berlin. Samuel G. Freeman, a professor of Journalism at Columbia University laments the demise of ROLLING STONE, but shows that he's incredibly out of touch. This got a laugh: Yet ROLLING STONE retains a paid circulation of 1.25 million, and the greatest publications in the United States--THE NEW YORK TIMES, THE WASHINGTON POST, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, THE NEW YORKER, THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY--recognize themselves as public trusts, not merely commercial enterprises. (THE NEW YORK TIMES is a public trust? That's why it tells its readers, against all evidence, that "Big Apple" comes from Damon Runyon? THE WASHINGTON POST is a public trust? Is that why its ombudsman won't even respond to me about a factual error that fails to recognize my work?--ed.) From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 9 12:48:32 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 05:48:32 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <10.2169de0c.2a5b2335@aol.com> Message-ID: For that matter, French is certainly the most germanic of the romance languages. --- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 7/8/2002 12:53:40 PM, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << Several such errors come down to the > indiscriminate use of "German" > for "Germanic". >> > > yes--for that matter, English is still "Germanic" ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 9 14:11:26 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:11:26 -0400 Subject: ..Weather Service speaks our language.. Message-ID: The following is a note from the InfoWorld news service. It provides some information about the National Weather Service's use of speech technology, including the use of a human-generated voice. http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/08/020708hnnatweather.xml?0709tuam George Cole Shippensburg University From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 9 14:34:16 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:34:16 -0400 Subject: Bad words (specifically "piss") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #I suspect there's a distinction between the literal, simple verb on #the one hand and compound forms and/or those with metaphorical import #on the other--not just "pisspot" and "pissenlit" but "piss off", #"pissed" (meaning either 'drunk' in Britain or 'angry' in the U.S., #leading to some great misunderstandings, as it happens), "pissant", #"piss-poor", and so on. I can imagine all these being used, given #the occasion, by a speaker who would nevertheless shy away from using #"piss" tout court for the bodily function or fluid. On the TV series _The Waltons_ -- I think in an extra-long program, maybe a special -- one of the kids complained, "Mama, he called me a pissant!" I was at first shocked at the use of the word "piss" on prime time. It took me a minute to work out "pissant" (not a word I was familiar with) and realize that it didn't count as a case of "piss" for the fictional family, or apparently for the network censors either. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 9 14:42:25 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:42:25 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <20020708.223710.-11581.8.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Duane Campbell wrote: #On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:21:52 EDT "James A. Landau" #> 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch # #Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of #"schweinhund. " I have seen, perhaps in MALEDICTA, the hypothesis that "son-of-a-bitch" originated as a slur on the addressee's mother, and that that is why it is so much stronger than "pig", "skunk", etc. As a subsequent supposition, that could be the source of the extra offensiveness of "bitch". -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 16:47:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:47:17 -0400 Subject: "Only in New York" disaster; War on Poverty Message-ID: "ONLY IN NEW YORK" DISASTER--Cindy Adams was hanging with the Wachtlers, and I had to break into a conversation to talk to her. I asked her where she got "Only in New York." "FROM MY HEAD!" she said. I told her that I researched the phrase and found earlier, and she told me to go away. I asked her if she knew who I was--did she see the Gersh Kuntzman articles? Did she know I was asked to write something (without pay) for the 200 year anniversary of the POST? Does she know I solved the Big Apple? She said she didn't know who I was, BUT SHE KNOWS NOW! Meanwhile, a piddly scholar from Yale Universary is nice to me and approachable. Go figure. I suppose all this puts me out of contention for the New York Post's Liberty Medal, which I deserve more than anyone. WAR ON POVERTY--Bernard Lander, Touro's founder, was in JFK's War on Poverty. Iasked about the phrase, which I found as early as the 1950s. Lander guessed it started with JFK's presidency. Well, he's wrong, too. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 9 16:55:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:55:11 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim Landau's categories of bad words: > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch I would expand this to all animals. That way you include such epithets as pig, ass (not arse), skunk, snake, and varmint. They may be milder, but they're still epithets. > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > In South Africa > they have their own equivalent of the N-word, namely "Kaffir", equally > effective for starting fights. (According to M-W, the word > is from the > Arabic). I would also expand this one to include slurs against any group. It would include slurs against religious groups, homosexuals, and women, not just ethnic groups. "Fag" and "queer" certainly belong here, not in the sexual category; they have no prurient appeal. Similarly, one could make a case for certain senses of "bitch" and "cunt" to be included here, instead of in the animal and sex categories (the primary senses clearly belong in those other categories though). From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 18:05:59 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:05:59 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Replying only to the points I find interesting: - In your guest editorial you used "German" when "Germanic" or "Anglo-Saxon" was the correct term. I think I see why you did it (and I agree with your decision.) First, you wanted to shock your readers into doing some thinking about a subject they had never heard of, and labelling "English" as "German" is rather shocking. Second, your average reader, if pressed, would define "Anglo-Saxon" as "belonging to the White Citizens Council" and "Germanic" as "made by Volkswagen." Where I say that your editorial went wrong (or was a red herring, i.e. irrelevant) was in your taking the well-documented pig-cow-sheep/pork-beef-mutton dichotomy and using it as the sole explanation for a broad range of behavior patterns on the part of English-speaking people. In a message dated 7/8/02 10:34:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dcamp911 at JUNO.COM writes: > "Damn" has always had a > use in standard, socially acceptable English. There is a difference > between "he was damned to a life of wandering" and "Damn you!" The coarse > language of 12th century peasants is mostly undocumented. But I would > suspect, with absolutely no academic credentials to support it, that the > latter use of "damn" is more closely related to the contemporary German > "verdammt," which is pretty much as bad as German gets, than to the usage > in etymological dictionaries. A good point. How strong is the evidence linking English "damn" to French as in "ame dammee" rather than to German as in "verdammt"? I have no idea. > > "Piss" is also from French---compare the > > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". MWCD10 says no, but I wonder if the English euphemism "pee" comes from the "Pis" above, which I think is pronounced /pee/ rather than /pis/. > "bastard" is not in itself a bad word, when used to describe a child born > outside of marriage. The aforementioned William was called William the > Bastard. As such it is descriptive. The pejorative nature of it comes not > from the word or the derivation of the word but from the circumstances. This is my point, that the local circumstances (i.e. the type of audience, which in turn implies the applicable set of taboos and the sublanguage to be used) are far more important than the pig/pork dichotomy that you emphasized. > > One major objection: there are languages which contain "bad words" > > but which > > do not have English's dual linguistic heritage. > > And I think that would be worth exploring. I know that, as an American > living in Gemany and speaking passable German, it was very unsatisfying > to try to swear in German. Though you could say things that were > insulting, there were simply no words that carried the emotional release > of "F--k you!" On a cultural level, the best you might do is something > equivalent to "Go piss up a rope." Yiddish and German are mutually comprehensible languages, yet they are spoken by people of different cultures. This, it appears to me, is reflected in their respective vocabularies of bad words. As was pointed out on this list, "hmooze" is a bad word in German but not in Yiddish. "Shmuck" (which has both meanings of English "prick") is a bad word in Yiddish. What about in German? In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test bed for investigating why bad words are bad. > > 4. Canine---bitch, son-of-a-bitch > > Gotta think about that. It is perhaps related to the German use of > "schweinhund. " In an otherwise long-forgotten book, I ran across the following theory: dogs, since they eat the corpses of people slain on battlefields, are widely used as a metaphor for disgust. Hence German "schweinhund" and Arabic "dog of an infidel". However, to Anglo-Saxons the dog was "man's best friend", a metaphor for nobility and faithfulness. Hence the Anglo-Saxons, presumably out of sexism, transferred the degrading metaphor to the female dog, the bitch, and needing a similar metaphor to apply to a male human, invented "son of a bitch". I have no idea of the evidence for this theory---it could be a folk etymology---but it explains everything plausibly. > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > > A whole different situation. It is the cultural situation that makes the > words bad, not the derivation. The last sentence is my point exactly. > (!) The religious taboo is very strictly defined: You shall not take the > word of God in vain. and > Well (and here I will make my sole claim of better credentials than the > rest of you), no. It is closely related to the "false witness" rule and > goes back to an ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d. Nobody knows what it is that this Commandment is prohibiting. On the theory that the purpose of Biblical exegesis is to make the literal words of the Bible relevant to people today, the best interpretation is that the Commandment prohibits perjury. Why then is perjury explicitly prohibited in the "false witness" Commandment? Another theory is that the Commandment spells out the "ancient taboo of speaking the name of G*d." (or, as you just demonstrated, writing the full name of the Deity). This is more than a mere taboo. The true Name of the Deity is, in Jewish tradition, a very powerful magical item---e.g. the Golem legend. In fact, in Jewish tradition and to a lesser extent in Christian tradition, the Name of the Deity is the Deity Him/Herself. Hence the Christian prayer "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away, blessed be the Name of the Lord". There is a timing problem with this interpretation. The Ten Commandments were well-known by the time of Jeremiah, and probably long before. On the other hand, the supposedly taboo Name was commonly used enough to have been picked up by Gentiles---"Yahveh" is the pronunciation recorded on several Green and Latin documents. Still another theory is that the Commandment prohibits one from petitioning the Deity (and what else is a prayer?) without paying out of your pocket for a priest to perform a sacrifice. And since burnt-offerings have been a historical curiousity since the days of Josephus, the only relevance of this Commandment to modern Christians is "Thou shalt donate to the collection plate." (Jews do not have collection plates---they feel it violates the commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy". > > Conclusion: > > "bad language" are those words which are taboo in conversation > > among > > polite/civilized/proper people. > > Exactly. The question is, How did they become taboo. Exactly. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 18:33:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:33:40 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <162.1060b0e0.2a5c8007@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0400 7/9/02, James A. Landau wrote: > > > "Piss" is also from French---compare the >> > name of the famous statue "Le Manequin-Pis". > >MWCD10 says no, but I wonder if the English euphemism "pee" comes from the >"Pis" above, which I think is pronounced /pee/ rather than /pis/. > Actually, as I remarked earlier, "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a mostly Flemish-speaking city. I don't know if the written name counts as Walloon (francophone Belgain) or as a Flemish (=Dutch) transliteration (note also the largely un-French "k"), but the "pis" is definitely [pis] phonetically, as the standard French "pisse" would be pronounced. No relation to the French word "pis" meaning 'worse'. Tant pis. (which is *not* a comment on a surfeit of the bodily effluvium or references thereto) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 18:36:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:36:18 -0400 Subject: Corpsicles in the news Message-ID: thanks to John Henry Williams, son and heir of the late immortal (oxymoron watch!) Ted Williams, who had the latter's body frozen and shipped to Arizona, not necessarily in that order. Haven't noticed the use of "corpsicle" in the news reports, though. Tant pis, again. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 18:47:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:47:25 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 1:01:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > > 5. Ethnic slurs---the infamous N-word is the most obvious. > > I would also expand this one to include slurs against any group. I agree, but there isn't any convenient two-word term. Even your phrase "slur against a group" is ambiguous. Words like "fag" and "queer" are, to coin a term, "direct slurs". But there are also indirect slurs, such as addressing a Native American with the word "How". Another indirect slur, which I have seen on this very list, is to use the term "sci-fi" to a science fiction fan. Them's fighting words. I could have used "fighting words", but that term is so broad that I would have had to do as much description using that term as if I hadn't used it. There are also non-verbal group slurs. At one time there was a deprecating stereotype of African-Americans eating watermelons. (If memory serves, this stereotype was fairly frequent in Betty Boop-era animated cartoons.) It got so that many African-Americans were offended by being offered watermelon. (This is documented in the McDavid edition, and maybe earlier editions, of Mencken's American Language.) However, I asked one African-American if he minded that watermelon would be served at a picnic he was invited to, and he didn't know what I was talking about, so maybe this slur is ancient history. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- Now to the important question: using slurs and other bad words to ferret out (or is ferret a slur?) the taboos and other social patterns that make them offensive. "How" and watermelons are well-known and it is easy to see how they became offensive. "Sci-fi" would provide an interesting case study, since the group involved is small (numbered in the thousands) and well-defined. The offensiveness of the term is due to the way in which the outside world confuses Hollywood science-fiction movies (which until Star Trek were almost uniformly bad) with written science fiction (the object of the fan's devotion, and arguably of much better quality than the Hollywood junk.) - Jim Landau (who gets hot under the choler whenever he hears "sci-fi") - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:00:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:00:48 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 2:32:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and > it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a > mostly Flemish-speaking city. Correction accepted. (I don't dare say "I stand corrected") Long ago, before the days of a computer in every pot and a chicken on every desk, I decided to razz a male coworker by programming the office computer to display a nude female whenever a certain option was selected, knowing he was by far the most common user of that option. Unfortunately the first person to select that option was a female who hadn't used that option in weeks. With malice aforethought she kept silent until the next team meeting and then "casually" mentioned the "sexist software". I satisfied her by offering to program a display of the Manikin-Pis ("The Little Boy", she called it) if she would provide me with a picture, but she never got around to it. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:06:34 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:06:34 -0700 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <162.1060b0e0.2a5c8007@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Yiddish and German are mutually comprehensible languages, yet they are spoken > by people of different cultures. This, it appears to me, is reflected in > their respective vocabularies of bad words. As was pointed out on this list, > "hmooze" is a bad word in German but not in Yiddish. "Shmuck" (which has > both meanings of English "prick") is a bad word in Yiddish. What about in > German? Schmuse is somewhat negative in German but I might not characterize it as "bad". The dictionary at my desk (Cassell's) has "flatter, soft-soap (a person) gossip, chatter, talk-nonsense". "Schmuck" in German is "ornament, jewels, decoration,", etc. My dictionary doesn't list any meaning which would be similar to Yiddish "shmuck". > > In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's > two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test bed > for investigating why bad words are bad. Of course, there are a number of Yiddishists who consider German and Yiddish to be two separate languages. This reminds me of a joke/story I heard once and only remember the outlines. There is an old Russian/Ukrainian Jew who happens to be in Germany and he is robbed or something and is taken before an official who claims he can understand Yiddish because it's the same as German. The old man describes what happened in Yiddish but uses an extremely high percentage of Slavic loanwords and expressions and the official, of course can't understand him at all. The punch line is the old man leaving, complaining "What's the matter with that guy? Can't he speak German". [If anyone knows the long version of this joke, I'd be grateful to have a copy, which being in Yiddish, should be probably sent off list.] > In an otherwise long-forgotten book, I ran across the following theory: > dogs, since they eat the corpses of people slain on battlefields, are widely > used as a metaphor for disgust. Hence German "schweinhund" and Arabic "dog > of an infidel". I don't think the Arab dislike of dogs is related to their eating corpses on battlefields but are just among a number of unclean animals held in disregard. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:16:59 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:16:59 EDT Subject: Managersalat Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 7:39:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > THE WASHINGTON POST is a public trust? Is that why its ombudsman won't even > respond to me about a factual error that fails to recognize my work? "Washington Post ombudsman" is an oxymoron. I was in Washington DC when the Post decided as a public relations gimmick to establish a position called "ombudsman". The first incumbent---I have mercifully forgotten his name---did absolutely nothing except every so often to lambaste the Pentagon's chief spokesperson and occasionally to write an article on the op-ed page defending the Post from criticisms. Not once did he ever admit the Post was at fault. It appears from your description that the tradition continues. By comparison there was a Post columnist whom I particularly disliked. I once wrote him a letter about the mistakes he had made in a certain column. The man wrote me back a personal letter which, while wrongheaded, even I will admit was respectful. That is to say, the Post's own standards are far below those of one of its most rabidly partisan mudslinging columnists. You may quote me if you wish. - James A. Landau From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Jul 9 19:26:54 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:26:54 -0400 Subject: grotty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the nine years I lived in southern England, I only ever heard the vowel in "grotty" as /a/, and the /t/ was distinctly pronounced. "Grody" with the "long" vowel was widespread in my Seattle schools in the 1970s, and used pretty interchangeably with "gross" in the 'disgusting' sense. Wendalyn Nichols At 03:52 PM 7/7/02 -0400, you wrote: >Excellent point. For civilized Americans (who make the caugh-cot >distinction) the /a/ of at least many varieties of English English is >much backer and rounder and could very well be placed at the vowel of >"caught" rather than "cot." > >For Northern Cities Shifters (you know who you are!) of course this >makes no difference since "cot" had already marched up to "cat" >(nearly) and "caught" has dropped down to "cot." What a world we live >in! Where are Peterson and Barney when we need them? > >dInIs > > > >>On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: >> >>#I very much doubt that Ringo would have used _grody_ in the 1960s, though >>#his heavy Liverpudlian accent might well have distorted the double-'t into a >>#'d'. And despite the NDAS, the 'o' in _grotty_ was/is always short. >> >>But rounded in (most?) British dialects, including, if my memory serves, >>the dialogue in _A Hard Day's Night_. Many Americans might have mapped >>that onto their own /o/ rather than /a/ for "short o". >> >>-- Mark A. Mandel From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Jul 9 19:20:08 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:20:08 -0400 Subject: Read's "Milestones" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Because there were so many books in the review box for me this time 'round, there are two installments of Safire's summer books column. The first hit Sunday 7.7. The second will hit 7.21. "Milestones" is included. A little help in the editing/ fact checking process requested ... A.W. Read just turned 96 in June - correct? Thanks, Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:23:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:23:48 EDT Subject: Bad words Message-ID: In a message dated 7/9/02 3:07:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > In fact we have here one-language-two-cultures, as opposed to English's > > two-languages-one-culture. This should make German/Yiddish a good test > bed > > for investigating why bad words are bad. > > Of course, there are a number of Yiddishists who consider German and > Yiddish to be two separate languages. By the old criterion, "a language is a dialect with an army", German is a separate language and not a dialect of Yiddish! Seriously, it is by mutual agreement that German and Yiddish are separate languages. Their using different alphabets makes them comparable to Serb and Croat. I only said "one-language-two-cultures" to contrast with the situation in post-Conquest England. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:26:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:26:10 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <6f.2a2236ec.2a5c8ce0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:00 PM -0400 7/9/02, James A. Landau wrote: > > >Long ago, before the days of a computer in every pot and a chicken on every >desk, I decided to razz a male coworker by programming the office computer to >display a nude female whenever a certain option was selected, knowing he was >by far the most common user of that option. Unfortunately the first person >to select that option was a female who hadn't used that option in weeks. >With malice aforethought she kept silent until the next team meeting and then >"casually" mentioned the "sexist software". I satisfied her by offering to >program a display of the Manikin-Pis ("The Little Boy", she called it) if she >would provide me with a picture, but she never got around to it. > He's all over the internet. And if you ever get to Belgium you too may end up with not only photos and postcards but, in my case, a deck of Manikin-Pis playing cards in effulgent off-pink. L From Rose.Wilcox at PINNACLEWEST.COM Tue Jul 9 19:27:34 2002 From: Rose.Wilcox at PINNACLEWEST.COM (Wilcox, Rose (ZB5646)) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:27:34 -0700 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: << > I haven't heard the expected counterpart "soft > copy". This could count > as a retronym. I heard "soft copy" to refer to an e-document for the first time fairly recently. Ed>> Really? I recall this from as early as '86, and a quick poll of my coworkers (admittedly all computer geek types) draws agreement with that time frame. My most common use of the term (as a technical writer) would be to describe my deliverable as in "Do you want it soft copy, hard copy, or both?" Rosie Wilcox From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 9 19:33:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:33:07 EDT Subject: Managersalat (with a reference to the "bad words" thread) Message-ID: And shouldn't ROLLING STONE qualify as a "public trust"? After all, it was ROLLING STONE that got Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz canned for telling an ethnic joke. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 9 19:49:17 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:49:17 -0400 Subject: Hard line Message-ID: A search of Google groups returns a message that mentions soft copy media, from 6 JAN 1982 -- "Formatting systems are concerned with the physical layout of a document for hard and soft copy media." http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22soft+copy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1984&selm=anews.Aucb.273&rnum=1 ===================== And, "a soft copy of the PC-TALK users manual (To print out)", from 7 DEC 1983 -- http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22soft+copy%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=r&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=31&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1984&selm=14404%40sri-arpa.UUCP&rnum=2 =============== George Cole Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 06:44:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:44:26 -0400 Subject: Falafel in Wednesday's NY Times Message-ID: A story about falafel is in today's New York Times. As you probably know, I researched the earliest cites for "falafel." I was never interviewed. Is this going to be a New York Times policy? Do they realize that I basically do this for free? Do they realize that I live in New York? If I do every food and antedate every word everywhere, will I get any respect anywhere? OFF TOPIC: The ONO president has replied to me about his ombudmen getting "Windy City" wrong and not even responding to me. I can't run the attachment here, but he basically said that he couldn't be bothered. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 16:12:59 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:12:59 -0400 Subject: Photos for sociolinguists Message-ID: I'm skeptical of the theory that the Muncie Hawk Shop is a hock shop. It seems much more likely to me that "hawk" is used here in the sense of peddling goods aggressively, a meaning that is unrelated to "hock" and, in my experience, now has little association with traveling peddlers. I heard the term frequently in my childhood in southern Kentucky in the 1960s and 1970s but do not recall hearing it in Massachusetts or Maryland. I called the Muncie Hawk Shop, and they confirmed that they buy and sell goods and do not hock or pawn them. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Photos for sociolinguists It's nice that the "I'll buy almost anything" part of the sign is visible, because it provides a clue that the establishment doesn't sell hawks or hawk supplies, or have clientele consisting of hawks, but is actually a hock shop, probably owned by someone who participates in the low vowel merge. Thanks to everyone for the positive responses on- and off-list! -Mai > From: "Baker, John" > > What's the significance of the Muncie Hawk Shop? > > John Baker > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mai Kuha [mailto:mkuha at BSU.EDU] > > Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language > variation: > > http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html > > I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. > The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There > are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the > Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! ... > > -Mai From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 10 17:35:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:35:40 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Actually, as I remarked earlier, "Manikin-Pis" is the spelling, and #it's Belgian. The statue is in the middle of Brussels, which is a #mostly Flemish-speaking city. I don't know if the written name #counts as Walloon (francophone Belgain) or as a Flemish (=Dutch) #transliteration (note also the largely un-French "k"), but the "pis" #is definitely [pis] phonetically, as the standard French "pisse" #would be pronounced. MW OnLine says of the English "manikin": Etymology: Dutch mannekijn little man, from Middle Dutch, diminutive of man; akin to Old English man Date: circa 1536 -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 10 17:38:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:38:54 -0400 Subject: Bad words In-Reply-To: <105.1857bbe9.2a5c89bd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # Another indirect slur, which I have seen on this very #list, is to use the term "sci-fi" to a science fiction fan. Them's #fighting words. It depends. This is an ever-green topic, like a weed, on the rec.music.filk newsgroup, and probably lots of other sf-related groups that I don't follow. (Filk is the music of sf fandom.) Lots of us think that the argument is old and pointless, and say "chacun a` son gou^t". Some reserve the name "scifi", spelled thus and pronounced "skiffy", for certain styles or content. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 18:12:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:12:09 -0400 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin. I leave for Vienna tomorrow...No confrontations with a New York Post gossip columnist today...FUN FACT: This Hyatt is opposite the State Library, which has all six volumes of Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG. Nothing too interesting in the cookbook department, though. JEWISH MUSEUM Today was spent at the Jewish Museum and a Concentration Camp. These Jewish, European delicacies were spotted at the Museum Cafe: NEW YORK DELI HOT-DOG VOM GEFLUGEL 2 euro BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME 2.50 euros 100 ml 7.40 euros 500 ml I told my tour guide that I was especially interested in the food section, so of course he walked right past it without pointing it out. Story of my life. It's an interesting museum, but the food section is not part of that interest. It occupies only a display case or two--this in Europe's most famous and most visited Jewish Museum? (There were no historical dreidels either, but that's another story.) On book was displayed--DIE PRAKTISCHE ISRAELITISCHE KOCHIN (Hamburg, 1890) by Rebekka Herte. There was one NOTEBOOK WITH RECIPES FOR KOSHER DISHES, dated March 25, 1884. There were some knosher knives from the 19th century. And that's about it. The bookstore sold THE BOOK OF JEWISH FOOD by Claudia Roden. This is not good. MISC.: BURN OR BULLSHIT--Seen an an advertising sign over a roadway. DOUBLE VICTIM--Israel Singer of the World Jewish COngress said he coined this term. ANOTHER FUN FACT--I'm typing for five minutes, and six people have asked if I'm done. I'M DONE!!!!!!!!! From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 10 19:10:46 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:10:46 EDT Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: In a message dated 07/10/2002 2:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME > 2.50 euros 100 ml > 7.40 euros 500 ml In a message dated 07/10/2002 2:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BEN & JERRYS KOSHERE EISCREME As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 10 19:17:27 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:17:27 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: <1a0.4f1b269.2a5de0b6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World > War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe > that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 20:01:11 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, just of the pronunciation. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM To: American Dialect Society Cc: Baker, John Subject: Re: hawk/hock Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] (with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). (I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking about for some time. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 10 20:51:44 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, July 10, 2002 12:17 PM -0700 "A. Maberry" wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >> >> As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during >> World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to >> believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu Yes, but "Eiscreme" is also seen. I don't remember hearing it used in speech, but if I'm not mistaken, a brand whose little flags are all over the place advertises its product as "Eiscreme." The current mania of the German language for borrowing foreign words, even where perfectly good German words already exist, has lasted for decades now and rages on undiminished. True, most of the borrowings are from English, so Eiscreme isn't such a clear-cut case, but the overall trend and the existence of English "ice cream" probably favor it. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 10 20:53:18 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:53:18 -0400 Subject: baseball parks and etymologies Message-ID: "Baseball Parks" ((c) 2000), a show on the History Channel, part of the series Modern Marvels, asserts the following [my notes in brackets]. Some (but not all) of this has been noted before by Barry Popik and others. red hot -- used by pioneering concessionaire Harry Stevens [1855-1934] of his hot dogs in buns, said to emphasize the warmth of the hot dogs his vendors served at New York's Polo Grounds [This is the old chestnut, already widely challenged here and elsewhere, though oft repeated. btw, OED has 1892 for _red hot_ 'hot dog'. The show also relates the dachshund/cartoonist story about _hot dog_. For a rendition of the Michael Quinion summary of the true and false etyms of _hot dog_, see http://www.intheweedz.com/Newsbites/History%20of%20the%20Hot%20Dog.htm] stadium -- first applied to a baseball facility in the name Yankee Stadium [opened 1923. This may well be true; see OED at _stadium_ 2, which cites the first use term for a general sports facility in 1901, at the Pan-American Exposition at Buffalo] skybox -- luxury enclosed seating, introduced for the Houston Astrodome [See also next item. MW has 1974 for _skybox_. See http://www.charlieanderson.com/astrodome.htm for hearsay evidence that suggests a 1965 date. Also, Pres. G.W. Bush is quoted as saying that his mother took him to the first game at the Astrodome in 1965, and said to him at the time that she had seats called "skyboxes"; see http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/070600/gen_0706004450.shtml] Astroturf -- developed for the Astrodome [opened 1965, named to recognize Houston's aerospace industry. The team's name was changed then from the Colt .45s to the Astros], which had a grass field at first. The grass died when the dome had to be covered with acrylic panels to reduce sun glare, and artificial grass, dubbed Astroturf [developed by Monsanto], was then installed [OED has 1966] exploding scoreboard -- the Astrodome had one, with an artificial light and sound show. [Perhaps the first artificial one, but not the first. Baseball owner/promoter Bill Veeck had real fireworks for home runs at Chicago's Comiskey Park. He introduced this "exploding scoreboard" in 1960, after he bought the White Sox. Earlier, when he owned the Cleveland Indians (1946-50), Veeck introduced the use of fireworks at major league baseball games.] OED does not have _skybox_ or _exploding scoreboard_ Frank Abate From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 10 21:04:25 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:04:25 -0700 Subject: Jewish Museum food In-Reply-To: <523382.3235297904@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: P.S. An amusing footnote to my post about foreign borrowings in German. A few months ago I heard an interview on NPR with somebody (I think a journalist) in Germany who was being mildly critical of the "Trend" for German to borrow foreign words even where native ones already exist. For instance, he said, why does everything have to be an "Event" nowadays? Why not use a perfectly good German word like "Spektakel," he suggested without a trace of irony. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 10 22:25:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:25:15 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse "pawning" with "bird of prey"? dInIs >Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk >Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, >just of the pronunciation. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM >To: American Dialect Society >Cc: Baker, John >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] >(with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I >have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the >clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the >two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. > >On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the >opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). >(I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) >Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell >it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked >my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking >about for some time. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 10 23:51:14 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:51:14 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in "Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse "pawning" with "bird of prey"? dInIs From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 11 00:14:38 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:14:38 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a punshop, isn't it? Unless the owner's surname is Hawk or something like that (and maybe even if it is), I suppose the name "Hawk Shop" is a play on "hock shop"? I don't know whether that implies anything with respect to phonetic variations. The slang term "hawk" = "steal" is, I suppose, basically a variant of "hock" = "steal" ... or vice versa ... and this connection might be relevant, perhaps? -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 00:35:02 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:35:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Maybe, but if you're running a second-hand store I would think that you would try to avoid any association of your shop with a pawnshop, and an association with stolen goods would be even more problematic. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock It's a punshop, isn't it? Unless the owner's surname is Hawk or something like that (and maybe even if it is), I suppose the name "Hawk Shop" is a play on "hock shop"? I don't know whether that implies anything with respect to phonetic variations. The slang term "hawk" = "steal" is, I suppose, basically a variant of "hock" = "steal" ... or vice versa ... and this connection might be relevant, perhaps? -- Doug Wilson From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Jul 11 01:50:58 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:50:58 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I lean towards my original assumption, when I pointed this new Muncie store out to Mai and to one of my undergrad Language and Society classes. "Hawk", in the sense of "sell in the street or door to door" isn't a very common verb in this area. Many of my Central Indiana students didn't know that meaning. They knew of the bird and the act of clearing one's throat noisily, but not this form of commerce. Knowing the owners and employees of this shop, I tend to doubt that they know it either. The place is something of a used equipment store. The owners do, as you thought, pronounce "hawk" and "hock" the same, though, as one would expect of natives of a low back vowel merger region. My guess is that the word "hock", which is also not particularly common around here--many of my students didn't know that one either--was confused with its homophone "hawk" and used loosely to mean "sell". Herb Stahlke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:51 PM Subject: Re: hawk/hock > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in "Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > > Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse > "pawning" with "bird of prey"? > > dInIs From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Jul 11 02:19:38 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:19:38 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: Thanks for the comments re bad words. I finally got a look at _The F word_ (which I cited and recommended) (hi, Jesse!). On the basis of it, list comments, and some HEL stuff, I suggested that the 15-tear-old be told something like this: ----- "Bad words" exist in a limited number of categories. Some categories are religious terms, sexual terms, racial epithets. Which ones are "bad" vary over time. For instance, several hundred years ago religious profanity was probably most highly stigmatized. In more recent years sexual terms (including body parts) have been highly stigmatized. In the US today, racial epithets are so stigmatized that, for instance, someone in Washington was initially fired a few years ago for using the word "niggardly" (which has no etymological connection to the n-word). Words become "bad" not because the words themselves are bad - they are not - but because they refer explicitly to something we are not as a society comfortable referring to explicitly or because they come to embody a particular attitude. This the two most highly stigmatized words in English today are the f-word and the n-word - one for its explicit reference, one for an attitude, I think. There are now books on both of them. _The F Word_, by Jesse Sheidlower (Random House, 1995) is a fairly scholarly glossary with introductory material. If you have not seen it, you may want to get a copy. I have not yet read _Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word_ (Randall Kennedy, 2001 or so), but of course I have lived through a period of history when we have had to replace several approximate synonyms as each became taboo - Negro, colored person, black, African-American, etc. The study of "bad words" is really the study of changing perceptions, I think. ---- Bethany From Conrad-Horst at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Jul 11 04:18:26 2002 From: Conrad-Horst at T-ONLINE.DE (Horst Conrad) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:18:26 +0200 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: Yes it does. There are also words like 'Speiseeis' or 'Eiskrem' - but nobody would say 'Ich hole mir ein Speiseeis.' Mit freundlichem Gru? Yours sincerely Sinc?res salutations ?dv?zlettel Horst Conrad . E-Mail: mailto:horst.conrad at t-online.de Internet: http://conrad-horst.bei.t-online.de Internet: http://www.etymologie.info Internet: http://www.wortherkunft.de Anmeldung zur Etymologie-Mailingliste: http://www.etymologie.info/et/et_maili.html#Etymologie-Mailingliste Anmeldung zum Etymologie-Newsletter: http://www.etymologie.info/et/et_maili.html#Etymologie-Newsletter Webring-Assistent "Etymologie": http://www.webring.de/cgi-bin/webring/navigation.pl?TeilnehmerID=76146 ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Jewish Museum food > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > > > As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during World > > War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to believe > > that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 07:00:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:00:23 -0400 Subject: Love Parade; Cindy Adams column Message-ID: Greetings from Berlin. I leave for Vienna in about four hours. LOVE PARADE--I'll miss the "Love Parade" of July 13. This is the thirteenth year of the parade, and it's bigger than ever. I don't know if it deserves an OED entry, but Google it for yourself. FUCK PARADE--According to the EX-BERLINER: "Formerly known as the Hate Parade, it was launched in '97 as a counterdemo for those who thought the Love Parade was lame and overcommercial. (..) Check out www.fuckparade.de." CINDY ADAMS COLUMN, THURSDAY, 11 JULY--At www.nypost.com. See her tagline, and if you ever meet her, YOU tell her that "Only in New York" was used in 1949! I'm glad she came here and reported on the conference, so that must be acknowledged above all else. However, the column is incredibly bad. We did not meet in a "15th-century building." Constance Baker Motley was not present. Simon Wiesenthal was not present. Alice Gilbert I don't believe was present. I don't think these names were even on the conference program! It's not Hubert Okun, it's Herbert. Gabriel Bach is a FORMER Israel supreme court judge. And saying that "Anti-Semitism is alive and well here" is very misleading. The new Jewish Museum has been a huge hit with the German public. There's more sensitivity than ever before. There will always be anti-Semitism, but the situation is a good deal better in Germany than in almost any other Euro country (say, France or Austria). Again, not good at all, but at least it wasn't another article on Gwyneth Paltrow. From Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Thu Jul 11 09:34:37 2002 From: Peter.Lucko at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Prof. Peter Lucko) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:34:37 +0200 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2002 to 10 Jul 2002 (#2002-166) Message-ID: > > > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> > >> As I happen to know that a high-ranking Imperial German general during > >> World War I once used "Neapolitan ice" as a metaphor, I find it hard to > >> believe that the German language lacks a native term for "ice cream". > > > > Doesn't German "Eis" serve for both ice and ice-cream? > > > > allen > > maberry at u.washington.edu > > Yes, but "Eiscreme" is also seen. I don't remember hearing it used in > speech, but if I'm not mistaken, a brand whose little flags are all over > the place advertises its product as "Eiscreme." The current mania of the > German language for borrowing foreign words, even where perfectly good > German words already exist, has lasted for decades now and rages on > undiminished. True, most of the borrowings are from English, so Eiscreme > isn't such a clear-cut case, but the overall trend and the existence of > English "ice cream" probably favor it. > > Peter Mc. > "Ice cream" in English and "Eiscreme" in German are both hybrid compounds, the first part being Germanic and at home in both languages, with more or less the same pronunciation but different spellings reflecting different stages at which they were fixed: "ice" before the vowel shift, "Eis" in its first stage of diphthongisation. The second part was loaned from French, which in the German word clearly shows in the spelling, while the English spelling conceals the French origin. So the whole word is not directly one of the ubiquitous Anglicisms or Americanisms; I agree, though, that the influence of "ice cream" may have caused the more frequent use of "Eiscreme" as against just "Eis", which, however, prevails in compounds like "Eisbecher" (= a cup of ice cream") or "Eiswaffel" (ice cream between two wafers). P.L. _______________________________ Prof. Dr. Peter Lucko Humboldt-Universit?t zu Berlin Institut f?r Anglistik und Amerikanistik Unter den Linden 6 D-10099 Berlin, Germany Tel.: +49 30 2093 2295 Fax: +49 30 2093 2244 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 11 11:41:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:41:34 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in >"Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more >likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods >aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a >hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives >from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse >"pawning" with "bird of prey"? > >dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 11 11:52:06 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:52:06 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 2002 to 10 Jul 2002 (#2002-166) In-Reply-To: <3D2D512C.29958DA7@rz.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Prof. Peter Lucko wrote: #"Ice cream" in English and "Eiscreme" in German are both hybrid #compounds, the first part being Germanic and at home in both #languages, with more or less the same pronunciation but different #spellings reflecting different stages at which they were fixed: "ice" #before the vowel shift, "Eis" in its first stage of diphthongisation. #The second part was loaned from French, which in the German word #clearly shows in the spelling, while the English spelling conceals the #French origin. Many American products that are "creams" in some parallel way, either as imitation dairy products or by having a creamy consistency, are marketed as "creme" (with no circumflex, unlike the French "cre^me"), pronounced the same as "cream". I've never thought of this usage as a return to the French spelling, though I suppose it could have originated as such. -- Mark A. Mandel From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Jul 11 12:32:39 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:32:39 +0200 Subject: Jewish Museum food Message-ID: The German "Eis" actually covers both "ice" and "ice-cream" - if you want to specify, you say "Speiseeis", ice for eating. The "Eiscreme" is a special type of "Speiseeis", soft and coming out of a machine instead of being scooped up with a spoon. And I am not sure that a German would consider the word being a loan from English: "Creme" was borrowed from French long ago. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 13:40:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:40:33 -0400 Subject: Sic Bo Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik Subject: Sic Bo Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:34:40 -0400 Size: 1338 URL: From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 14:47:13 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:47:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: It seems to me that you're making something of a leap here. The shop owner used "hawk" in his shop name, he said in his brief conversation with me, because it means to sell. As such, it was used correctly and with the correct spelling. (Traditionally, "hawk" means to sell as an itinerant peddler, but I think that the term as used in the U.S. simply means to sell aggressively, not necessarily as an itinerant or in the street.) You are suggesting that the shop owner was under a double confusion: First, he thought that the term "hock," also rare locally, means to sell rather than to pawn, and second, he thought that the word is spelled h-a-w-k. Instead of assuming that the owner used the wrong word and happened to misspell it in a way that coincidentally made his usage correct, isn't it simpler to assume that he was using the right word in the right way? -----Original Message----- From: Herbert Stahlke [mailto:hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:51 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock I lean towards my original assumption, when I pointed this new Muncie store out to Mai and to one of my undergrad Language and Society classes. "Hawk", in the sense of "sell in the street or door to door" isn't a very common verb in this area. Many of my Central Indiana students didn't know that meaning. They knew of the bird and the act of clearing one's throat noisily, but not this form of commerce. Knowing the owners and employees of this shop, I tend to doubt that they know it either. The place is something of a used equipment store. The owners do, as you thought, pronounce "hawk" and "hock" the same, though, as one would expect of natives of a low back vowel merger region. My guess is that the word "hock", which is also not particularly common around here--many of my students didn't know that one either--was confused with its homophone "hawk" and used loosely to mean "sell". Herb Stahlke From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 14:50:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Then, in answer to your earlier question, yes, some people do think that "hawk" means to pawn, per RHHDAS. However, I'm not aware of anybody who thinks that "hock" means to sell. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:42 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs > You're confusing two completely different words. "Hawk," in >"Muncie Hawk Shop," is either a misuse of "hock" or, far more >likely, from the verb "to hawk," meaning to peddle goods >aggressively, a back-formation from Middle English "hauker," a >hawker or peddler. "Hawk," in the sense of a bird of prey, derives >from Old English "heafoc," a hawk or falcon. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:25 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > >Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse >"pawning" with "bird of prey"? > >dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 15:45:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:45:58 -0400 Subject: Kochbuch fur Israeliten (1815); Cocktail names Message-ID: KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buche der Staatsbibliotek), also available at http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? --------------------------------------------------------------- COCKTAIL NAMES Posh, the Australian Bar, is near this Grand Hyatt. I liked the drink list in the window, so here goes: Abbie Dabbie, Abseits, Albatros, Banana Mama, Barbie, Batida Brazil, Bird of Paradise, Bloody Mary, Caipirinha, Caipirovka, Castro Cooler, Cats, Choco Colada, Cuba Libre, Daiquir Natural, Dallas, Ducktail, El Diabolo, Erich Honecker (Hennessy Pure White, APricot Brandy, Orangensaft, Yitronsaft, Madelsirup), Flamingo, Flying Kangaroo, Freedom, French Colada, Frozen Fruit Daiquir, Froyen Fruit Margarita, Fruit Caipirinha, Golden Colada, Green Devil, Green Poison, Haiti Night, Hill Street, Honolulu Juicer, Hurricane, Island of Passion, Jack's Wife, Jamaica Fever, Laser, Latin Lover, Liebe Sunde, Long Island Iced Tea, Lynchburg Lemonade, Madame Louise, Magic Queen, Margarita Natural, Melon Man, Mexican Colada, Mojito, New Orleans, Northern Lights, Nuclear, Pimm's No. 1 Cup, Pina COlada, Pink Elephant, Planter's Punch, Posh Tropical, Posh Twister, Raspberry Flip, Red Banana, Scorpion, Sex on the Beach, Singapore SLing, Strawberry Kiss, Sugar Plump, Surf, Swimming Pool, Tequila Sunrise, Tiefseetacher, Tornado, Vodka Blue, West Indian Punch, Zombie, Zorro ALKOHOLFREIE COCKTAILS Baby Love, C-Monster, Calcutta, Coco Choco, Cocoloc, Coconut Kiss, Green Mile, Honolulu Star, Ipanema, Long Distance Runner, Mandarinetto, Pelikan, Pussy Foot, Spring Fever, Summer Cooler, Tropical, Virgin Mojito, Virgin Pina Colada From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Thu Jul 11 16:02:57 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:02:57 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gee, when I saw the pix I just thought it was a cute, and catchy, play on words of the Dew Drop Inn, variant. I doubt if many folks think of the negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in at that site, even thought he founders did. The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really depressing. rhk From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 16:13:10 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:13:10 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Well, if we weren't able to get into intense serious discussion of minor issues of language, what kind of linguistics list would this be? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Rick H Kennerly [mailto:Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:03 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock Gee, when I saw the pix I just thought it was a cute, and catchy, play on words of the Dew Drop Inn, variant. I doubt if many folks think of the negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in at that site, even thought he founders did. The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really depressing. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 16:46:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:46:45 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/11/02 12:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes: > I doubt if many folks think of the > negative social or literary connotations of Swift's Yahoos when they log in > at that site, even thought he founders did. > > The lack of intellectual playfulness on this group is sometime really > depressing. > I guess we're not very Swift. Or maybe we heeded the name of that famous Australian actor, Yahoo Serious. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 17:17:33 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:17:33 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:41 AM Subject: Re: hawk/hock > Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) > "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch > carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds > (called "falconry" by the elite). > > None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the > morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a > relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the Pacific Northwest in this respect? Anne G From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jul 11 17:28:04 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:28:04 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are homophones. "Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with "hawk". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 11 17:31:54 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:31:54 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: Hey, that makes three morally adequate Northwesterners (Allen Maberry, me, and now Anne)! Maybe our region can still be saved! Peter Mc. DInIs wrote: >> Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) >> "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch >> carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds >> (called "falconry" by the elite). >> >> None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the >> morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a >> relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." And Anne G. replied: > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at > least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from > the Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:03:22 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:03:22 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <262038.3235372314@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Nope. That makes three northwesterners who CLAIM they distinguish hock-hawk (and the attendant moral superiority that apparently comes with vowel distinguishing). dInIs (suspicious) >Hey, that makes three morally adequate Northwesterners (Allen Maberry, me, >and now Anne)! Maybe our region can still be saved! > >Peter Mc. > > >DInIs wrote: > >>>Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) >>>"hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch >>>carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds >>>(called "falconry" by the elite). >>> >>>None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the >>>morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a >>>relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." > >And Anne G. replied: >> >>INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at >>least) differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from >>the Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>Anne G > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:18:02 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Both of these words are pretty rare (not the bird sense, of course) and the semantic similarity is pretty strong. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Thu 7/11/2002 6:41 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: hawk/hock Nope! No confusion here in phonology or lexicon. I have (at least) "hawk" (v.) 1. to peddle aggressively, 2. to attend to or watch carefully (as in "ball-hawk" in hoops), and 3. a sport using birds (called "falconry" by the elite). None of these are related to "hock," but it's easy to see how the morally inadequate vowel conflaters among use might see a relationship between the first verb "hawk" and "hock." dInIs From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 18:21:39 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:21:39 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <001501c228fe$d9442040$2fbe9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I didn't know the two COULD be distinguished, and I was born in Auburn and grew up in Kent and Seattle. I get my pronunciation from my mother who probably got it from her mother who was born in West Seattle. I was born just a little ways away in Auburn and my mother in Seattle. (My grandfather was born in California.) Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Anne Gilbert > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > different from the > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > Anne G > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Jul 11 18:30:50 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:30:50 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I guess I'm Gordon's exact opposite. Hawk=sell is familiar to me, "hock" in no way strikes me as rare, it never occurred to me that "hawk" and "hock" could be homophones, but my initial moral superiority is utterly lost if I try to distinguish "pen" and "pin." In fact, I'm in pretty bad shape with the whole concept of basing morality on vowel distinguishing, other than hawk/hock. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Gordon, Matthew J. [mailto:GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 2:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: hawk/hock I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Both of these words are pretty rare (not the bird sense, of course) and the semantic similarity is pretty strong. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 18:38:42 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:38:42 -0700 Subject: FW: hawk/hock Message-ID: He was born in Seattle, his mother in Japan. > From: Henry Mah > I think that I pronounce them the same. > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Barrett [mailto:gogaku at ix.netcom.com] > What do you think about this? > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > > different from the > > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > > Anne G A five-vowel pronunciation system for a unified spelling system! FCV-subscribe at fivecardinalvowels.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 11 18:40:02 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:40:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340BF@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: #I can confirm Dennis' prediction. I am a degenerate conflater of low #back vowels (though my soul may be salvaged by my maintenance of the #pen/pin distinction). I don't think I've ever seen 'hawk' in the #meaning of "sell" written. If I had heard someone using it, I would #have guessed the intended form was 'hock'. Vice versa here. "Hawking one's wares" is a well-established expression for me, with a basic connotation of selling them on the street and calling them out to passersby, and a general sense of selling and promoting them. To me, the verb "hock" means "pawn", and if I heard about someone /'hakIN/ their goods I would assume either that the speaker was a conflater and meant 'selling', or that that s/he meant 'pawning'. If I read "hocking one's wares" I would assume either 'pawning' or misspelling. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguist at Large From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:44:21 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:44:21 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Allen: > > Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are > homophones. > "Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with > "hawk". > Same here. That was my point, I guess. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:47:35 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:47:35 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: dInIs > Nope. That makes three northwesterners who CLAIM they distinguish > hock-hawk (and the attendant moral superiority that apparently comes > with vowel distinguishing). > Well, that kind of reminds me of the discussion we had over the pronunciation of "clematis" some months back. I haven't heard anybody(that I know of)who promounces "hawk" and "hock" the same way in my part of the country, but then, there are people who aren't "native Northwesterners" -- e.g., they come here from every part of the country -- and we Northwesterners with webbed, moss-growing feet like to *think* we're "morally superior" to *them*. :-) Anne G From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Jul 11 18:48:47 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:48:47 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: As someone who used to hawk vegetables in Wilmington, DE, I was aware of the word in everyday usage. A search with Google returns about a dozen hits on 'hawk vegetables'. We were not hucksters, since the vegetables were grown on our farm. At the time, city laws did not require us to have a license. MW 10th, #1, defines a huckster as a hawker/peddler. George Cole Shippensburg University From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Jul 11 18:48:52 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:48:52 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Benjamin: > I didn't know the two COULD be distinguished, and I was born in > Auburn and grew up in Kent and Seattle. > > I get my pronunciation from my mother who probably got it from her > mother who was born in West Seattle. I was born just a little ways > away in Auburn and my mother in Seattle. (My grandfather was born in > California.) (Deep breath) Hmmmmmmm. . . . . . . Anne G From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 11 20:29:37 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:29:37 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Larry Horn asked: >> I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? << One can find _apizza_ as a spelling in the names of some pizza parlors not far from New Haven, esp. in towns that were populated by ex-New Haven Italians -- East Haven is the best example (btw, the local allegro pron for East Haven is something like "STAY-v at n"). There's an ethnic joke about East Haven that claims that the last names of everyone who lives there ends in a vowel. The furthest afield use of apizza I have seen is in the name "Sal's Apizza", a parlor in Meriden, about 25 miles north of New Haven. That may not seem far, but Meriden has little to do culturally or historically with New Haven. On the other hand the reputation of the Wooster Street-style "apizzas" within Connecticut may well explain the use of the term that far away. So far, I have not been able to track down anything on the origin of _apizza_. Anyone else? Could it be regional or dialectal Italian? Perhaps from an area in Italy from which many New Haven immigrants came? As for the pron, it has stress on the second syllable, something like "ah-BEETS". The "p" is sounded like a bilabial fricative. As for _pie_ = 'pizza', I recall encountering this for the first time in college (Xavier U in Cincinnati), from the mouths of Northeasterners. It struck me then as very odd. Being a Midwesterner by upbringing, I never refer to a pizza as a "pie". Even the term _pizza pie_ seems a bit odd to me. For me, it's simply _pizza_. Frank Abate From aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU Thu Jul 11 21:18:22 2002 From: aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU (National Foreign Language Resource Center) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:18:22 -1000 Subject: Call for Papers: American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) 2003 Conference Message-ID: Call for Papers: AAAL 2003 The annual conference of the American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) will be held March 22-25, 2003 at the Sheraton National Hotel in Arlington, VA, across the Potomac River from Washington, DC. Proposals for presentations related to policy, research, and theory are invited in any area of applied linguistics. Proposals may be for individual papers, poster sessions, or colloquia. The abstract submission and refereeing process will be paperless this year. Instructions regarding abstract preparation and online submission and other aspects of the conference may be found on the organization's website: www.aaal.org/aaal2003/ Proposals may be submitted online from now until the deadline of August 26, 2002. Please join us in Arlington for AAAL 2003! From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Jul 11 23:45:10 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:45:10 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Anne G wrote: >I haven't heard anybody(that I> know of)who promounces "hawk" and "hock" the same way in my part of the >country, but then, there are people who aren't "native Northwesterners" -- >e.g., they come here from every part of the country -- Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing them--that would have struck a chord right off. Of course, their must be some old logger in the hills or farmer in the southern part of the Willamette Valley who makes a difference. I periodically poll my students on such matters and this one is almost 100% in agreement with my usage--the few who do not are invariably webfoot wannabes, but not natives. >and we >Northwesterners with webbed, moss-growing feet like to *think* we're >"morally superior" to *them*. :-) >Anne G What do mean *think*?! :-) There's just something cool about someone who doesn't mind a little liquid sunshine. Fritz Juengling From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Jul 12 00:16:49 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:16:49 -0700 Subject: You half to help me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for > "(you) have > to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance > was in an > official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The > second one > was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. > > What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling > error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How > could that have come about? Microsoft's Spell-Checker. If the spell checker doesn't flag it, it must be ok. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 12 00:46:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:46:53 -0400 Subject: You half to help me! In-Reply-To: <000901c22939$6b4b8020$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: > > Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for >> "(you) have >> to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance >> was in an >> official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The >> second one >> was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. >> >> What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling >> error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How > > could that have come about? > They're not alone. A quick google search under "you half to" (with quotes present) turns up "about 1630 hits, only some of which can be dismissed as involving well-formed contexts like "scares you half to death". Most are more like "you half to see it to believe it". Well, at least the reader knows how to pronounced "half to" when it's spelled that way. But "unconscious acceptance" does seem to be on the way... larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 11 21:30:23 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:30:23 -0500 Subject: FW: hawk/hock Message-ID: Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable. A summary map can be found at: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/Map1L.html > > INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and > > "hawk"(the bird, at least) > > differently. Maybe other parts of the country are > > different from the > > Pacific Northwest in this respect? > > Anne G From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Jul 11 21:06:35 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:06:35 -0700 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Although I always leave out the pie part, I learned the order of the planets by the mneumonic My Very Educated Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizza Pies Benjamin Barrett From nfogli at IOL.IT Thu Jul 11 23:50:16 2002 From: nfogli at IOL.IT (=?iso-8859-1?Q?--?=) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:50:16 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_You_half_to_help_me!?= Message-ID: Dear linguists, I have recently seen "(you) half to..." for "(you) have to..." in two different pieces of writing. The first instance was in an official U.S. booklet aimed at (under)graduate students. The second one was contained in an email sent to me by a college secretary. What can you say about this construction other than it is a spelling error? Has it gained any sort of unconscious acceptance? How could that have come about? Thank you for any helpful insights, Steve Roti From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 12 00:08:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:08:19 -0400 Subject: Bad words Message-ID: While, historically, profanity was more criticized than sexual terms, the practice seems to have been the reverse. In printed works, at least, profanity was far more common than sexual terms, suggesting that the f-work and the c-word were subject to the most powerful taboos. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bethany K. Dumas [mailto:dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bad words Which ones are "bad" vary over time. For instance, several hundred years ago religious profanity was probably most highly stigmatized. In more recent years sexual terms (including body parts) have been highly stigmatized. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 11 23:59:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:59:02 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >> >> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the bird, at least) >> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >> Anne G > >Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >homophones. >"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >"hawk". > Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the Mary/merry/marry ones. Larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 01:56:34 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:56:34 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <160.10748d6b.2a5f7286@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing #them--that would have struck a chord right off. Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 01:57:31 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:57:31 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve #all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the #Mary/merry/marry ones. Not to mention there/their and soar/sore... -- Mark M. From Friolly at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 02:36:37 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:36:37 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/11/02 6:56:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would > be > #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all > their > #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing > #them--that would have struck a chord right off. > > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you > hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. Well, just because folks "merge" vowels does not mean they cannot hear the difference when someone else makes it. Everyone in my family, for example, has the caught/cot merger, but we all hear the difference. Even my youngest, who is now nine, has been snickering for years when she has heard someone on TV say 'cawt'. We have been watching 'Hogan's Heroes' for since she was 5 and she notices every time Bob Crane says 'bawl' for 'ball,' and so on. When I was a kid, though, I could not tell the difference between 'tin' and 'ten.' I did watch Sesame Street and I am sure they said eight, nine, 'tin.' I never heard it when I watched Mary Tyler Moore--who was supposed to be a Minnesotan, but is from New York. Now, when I watch those same shows, she sounds like she's from New York--no way is she a Minnesotan. My ability to discern items has increased, of course. On the other hand, when my oldest was in first grade, one of his spelling words was 'bag.' So, he studied all week and when the test was given, there was a new word on the list--'beg.' The teacher was a 'bag/beg' merger (very common in Minnesota). So, my son naturally wrote what he heard, even though it was new "b-e-g" and it was marked wrong. I brought this up at parent teacher conferences, the teacher could not hear the difference that I clearly made to save her life. A third anecdote. I had a buddy from Utah whose last name is Peel. However, certain vowels in Utah speech get (nearly) merged before /l/. So, when he would introduce himself, the conversation would run thusly: My buddy: Hi, my name is Mike Pill other person: Oh, Mike Pill? My buddy: No, Mike Pill other person: Mike Pill? My buddy: No, Pill! This round-robin would go on until he finally spelled his name. I am sure he thought everyone else was saying 'peeel.' After I had known him for quite some time, I finally asked him what he took for a headache--a 'pill.' Then what his last name was --'pill.' I had him say both over and over and finally I could hear a *slight* difference, but it was as clear as day to him. The vowels are really not merged, but they sound like it to outsiders, but he, and his wife (and I believe the other Utahns) could tell the difference. So, sometimes people can hear differences and sometimes they cannot. I do not know why some things are so obvious to some and not to others. There are probably many reasons. Fritz From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 12 04:02:14 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:02:14 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The furthest afield use of apizza I have seen is in the name "Sal's Apizza", >a parlor in Meriden, about 25 miles north of New Haven. That may not seem >far, but Meriden has little to do culturally or historically with New Haven. >On the other hand the reputation of the Wooster Street-style "apizzas" >within Connecticut may well explain the use of the term that far away. There is "Tomatoes Apizza" in suburban Detroit, but it apparently is recent, and its name apparently is based on its owner's recollections of New Haven. [There is of course the Abate Apizza and Seafood Restaurant in New Haven.] There is the spelling "appizza" occasionally. >So far, I have not been able to track down anything on the origin of >_apizza_. Anyone else? Could it be regional or dialectal Italian? Perhaps >from an area in Italy from which many New Haven immigrants came? "Pizza" itself is apparently from a southern Italian dialect originally. First, what is the origin of "pizza" in Italian (or Italian dialect)? [What is its connection to Modern Greek "pitta" [bread] (which my Buck book says is apparently derived from Italian/Latin)?] "Pizza" in Italian should mean "point", I would think ... quite the opposite of pizza-like flatness .... It is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). Incidentally, a little Calabrian-Italian dictionary on the Web shows Calabrian "pizza" = "cake" or so (equated to Italian "torta") but it also shows Calabrian "pizza" with a grave accent on the "i" meaning "penis" -- more in line with "point", or Italian "picca" ("pike" etc.) (cf. "piccante", "pizzicato", etc.). -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at VISI.COM Fri Jul 12 05:03:09 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:03:09 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002-167) In-Reply-To: <20020712040009.9966F5156@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Date sent: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:00:08 -0400 Send reply to: American Dialect Society From: Automatic digest processor Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002- 167) To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:36:37 EDT > From: Fritz Juengling > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > In a message dated 7/11/02 6:56:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM > writes: > > > > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington > > #(I would > > be > > #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with > > #all > > their > > #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone > > #distinguishing them--that would have struck a chord right off. > > > > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as > > you hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. > > /E/. > > Well, just because folks "merge" vowels does not mean they cannot hear > the difference when someone else makes it But it becomes much more likely. I'm from an area where "Don" and "Dawn" are pronounced differently. (The Catskills. If The Twilight Zone is still being rerun, it's easy to hear a native speaker of my dialect. Rod Serling was from the next county, and to me he has no accent.) I now live in the Twin Cities, where natives don't make that distinction. I'm not a trained linguist, but informal investigation indicates that Minnesotans find it hard to hear the distinction. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 08:43:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 04:43:07 -0400 Subject: Hot-Dog with Frankfurter Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. This is the menu of a little hot-dog booth. It sells a hot-dog WITH frankfurter. (What's next? A hamburger with meat?) 1 stk Klobasse gekocht (Burenwurst) 2.00 euro l stk Grillwurst 2.20 1 stk Currywurst 2.35 1 stk Bratwurst 2.20 1 stk Tiroler Grillwurst 2.35 1 stk Teufelsgriller 2.30 1 stk Grill-Kasekrainer 2.30 1 stk Knoblauchwurst 2.30 1 Paar Frankfurter 2.05 1 Paar Puszta 2.05 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Grillwurst 2.65 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Bratwurst 2.65 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Tiroler Grillwurst 2.80 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Kasekrainer 3.15 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Teufelsgriller 2.70 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Frankfurter 1.85 1 Reise Hot-Dog mit Debreziner 1.85 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 12 12:36:13 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:36:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ahahahahahahah, larry, how bout horse-hoarse? dInIs >At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>bird, at least) >>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>> Anne G >> >>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>homophones. >>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>"hawk". >> >Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >Mary/merry/marry ones. > >Larry From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 12 12:38:26 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:38:26 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hope this is not redundant -- I'm checking my mail remotely and may not have gotten to all the ADS-L hawk messages hidden among the porn and weight loss spams... But, to answer Dennis, I was reading the June issue of WIRED yesterday evening and found this sentence in an article about Filipino workers overseas: "Often a new contract, written in a foreign language, is forced on the employee once she's in hawk for her fees and far away from home." (p. 145) --Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Is there a merger of the words anywhere (i.e., people who confuse > "pawning" with "bird of prey"? > > dInIs > > > > > >Yes, it did sound a lot like "hock" when he pronounced "Muncie Hawk > >Shop." I don't think there's any merger of the words here, though, > >just of the pronunciation. > > > >John Baker > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at ohio.edu] > >Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:56 PM > >To: American Dialect Society > >Cc: Baker, John > >Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > > > > >Did you ask the owner to pronounce the name of the shop? He may say [hak] > >(with 'short o') for both words even if he has the lexical distinction. I > >have a similar example somewhere in my files, where "hawk" seems to be the > >clear intention but "hock" is on the sign (or in the ad); in this case the > >two words seem to have merged along with the vowels. > > > >On the other hand, in southern and SE Ohio (all the way to Pittsburgh) the > >opposite conflation will occur, with both vowels going to [O](or 'open o'). > >(I should say "almost," since the merged vowel is not quite that far back.) > >Newcomers to our area who hear the name of our local river may thus spell > >it "Hawking" instead of "Hocking." When I myself was new, a neighbor asked > >my son if he liked to play "hawkey," and we didn't know what he was talking > >about for some time. > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 12 13:38:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: Hot-Dog with Frankfurter In-Reply-To: <2A62626D.100BB38A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Greetings from Vienna. This is the menu of a little hot-dog > booth. It sells a hot-dog WITH frankfurter. (What's next? A hamburger > with meat?) .... Here's the place, I think: http://members.newsclub.at/deninger/ Here's the menu: http://members.newsclub.at/deninger/speissekarte/keinespeissenhm.htm "Riesen Hot-Dog" = "Giant/Grand Hot Dog", I think. Here I speculate that "Hot-Dog" can be interpreted as "sausage [sandwich]" [perhaps mustard or something is implied also]. "Riesen" presumably refers to a larger than usual sausage, I guess ... or maybe to a fat or fancy sandwich stuffed with sauerkraut or whatever. If I were in Austria I'd be glad to research the subject. Even in the US, expressions such as "bratwurst hot dog" and "kielbasa hot dog" are used, to my personal knowledge and per Google. Per Google, I find one example of an apparent literate US-an using "frankfurter hot dog", which I've never heard myself IIRC. If "hot dog" = "sausage sandwich" occurs in the US, I suppose it can be expected to occur elsewhere too. ("Debreziner" = "puszta", I think.) -- Doug Wilson From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 12 15:37:55 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:37:55 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:56 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > #Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I > would be #very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' > with all their #meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone > distinguishing #them--that would have struck a chord right off. And Mark Mandel replied: > Would it? If you are a conflater, I would not expect you to hear the > difference in non-conflating speech as clearly and automatically as you > hear differences that are distinctive to you, such as /ae/ vs. /E/. > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its linguistic mix. In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly observe our own speech. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 12 15:43:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:43:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <148465.3235451875@[10.218.203.234]> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: # #On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, You mean hawk/HOCK, right? #etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was #just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded #by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on #those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, #though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of #Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came #from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared #many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its #linguistic mix. # #In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: # #"Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent #distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected #of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are #variable." # #I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" #and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple #statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of #the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly #observe our own speech. ISTR a finding, prob. by Labov, that people can maintain distinctions in their own production that they fail to recognize in other people's speech or their own. -- Mark A. Mandel From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 12 15:58:43 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:58:43 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 12, 2002 11:43 AM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > #On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > > You mean hawk/HOCK, right? Oops! Yes. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:18:21 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:18:21 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:36 AM -0400 7/12/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >ahahahahahahah, larry, how bout horse-hoarse? > >dInIs Got me there. I guess that's down below the Mary/merry/marry line. L > >>At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>>> >>>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>>bird, at least) >>>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>>> Anne G >>> >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> >>Larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:17:52 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:17:52 -0500 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: What I meant by 'consistent' is that the distinction is maintained in all phonetic environments checked (Don/dawn, sock/talk, cot/caught, collar/taller) and is maintained in both production and perception. As expected many speakers claim to distinguish the vowels though their production belies this. More interesting are the cases of people who claim to merge them and fail perception tests to distinguish them despite the fact that they maintain a measurable difference in their actual production. As for the contradiction of Labov's data with the claims of listers, I suspect this may be a sampling issue. TELSUR sampled only a few speakers in each locale. Also, the goal was to examine ongoing changes and so the sample was biased to a certain extent in favor of young women. Still, the fact that they didn't find anyone out there who consistently distinguished the vowels is striking. -----Original Message----- From: Peter A. McGraw [mailto:pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/12/2002 10:37 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: hawk/hock In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly observe our own speech. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jul 12 16:19:06 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:19:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and horse/hoarse? Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Jul 12 16:43:16 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:43:16 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter McGraw writes: In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are variable." ~~~~~~ I was rather inclined to accept this as explaining why my fellow Nebraskan (landsman?), Matthew Gordon, & I differ in this matter. I do and have always distinguished between hawk & hock. I'm guessing that I'm a good deal older than Matthew. A. Murie From Friolly at AOL.COM Fri Jul 12 17:03:39 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:03:39 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/12/02 8:45:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, Of course you do. Most people who do not merge items find it odd that others do. I am sure that if we could resurrect an Anglo-Saxon, he would find it outlandish that we now merge 'kn' and 'n' as in 'knee.' I had a phonetics professor once who was bothered by my merger of pin/pen. He just could not figure out how I would ever know which was which and when to spell 'pen.' Well, first off, I always know what I mean to say, but I answered him by asking how he would know which [nait] he meant--knight or night-- ([rait] would have been better--right, write, rite, wright). Context tells what you mean and, as far as spelling goes, it's more or less a matter of memorization. Writing for /i/ does not bother me any more than writing for /nothing/ Our Ango-Saxon buddy would be astounded to hear all four [rait]s as homophones--he would have had 4 different pronunciations. I find it equally as outlandish that people do not merge them 'hawk' and 'hock.' It just seems a bothersome distinction. When I wrote that this might be a Wash/Oregon isogloss, I was not serious. Fritz and yet I was > > just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded > by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on > those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, > though I From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 12 17:34:37 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:34:37 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hardly, dInIs >Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and >horse/hoarse? > >Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Jul 12 17:45:08 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:45:08 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Hardly, > >>Am I the last person in the country who distinguishes both hock/hawk and >>horse/hoarse? >> >>Bethany Whew! Thanks. My students sometimes think I am. Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Jul 12 18:50:41 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:50:41 -0400 Subject: yahoo email: medieval equals medireview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of you may be interested in the following, especially if the word "medireview" ever comes up when you're searching. http://www.ntk.net/2002/07/12/#HARD_NEWS -- Steve From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 12 18:54:57 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:57 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C2@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: >What I meant by 'consistent' is that the distinction is maintained >in all phonetic environments checked (Don/dawn, sock/talk, >cot/caught, collar/taller) and is maintained in both production and >perception. I was surprised to discover I do NOT distinguish between pom/palm, though I do not merge any of the others. What's going on here? My husband did make the distinction between them, as well as the others. Rima From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 12 21:34:24 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:34:24 -0400 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair cited. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 01:00:43 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:00:43 -0400 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <007f01c229eb$e52bc6e0$1eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair >differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair >cited. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein Yes, indeed I remember this being marked as some sort of phonemic length distinction back in Gleason's Intro to Descriptive Linguistics. larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 01:37:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:37:31 -0400 Subject: Austrian Gelateria & other Austrian food Message-ID: Greetings again from Vienna...A souvenir traffic sign declares "No kangaroos in Austria." There are TWO Jewish museums in town. One is simply the excavation of a 15th-century synagogue. The other concentrates on Leo Baeck interviews with modern Austrian Jews. There was not much of anything in the kosher food department to report. I asked to see any dreidels, and the guide didn't understand me. L'viv is the place I had to get to; my family comes from a town near there. L'viv is centrally located between Warsaw, Vienna, and Kiev, BUT is VERY difficult to get to. Maybe on another trip (Belarus). Thanks to Doug for that menu--it appears to be the one I looked at. From another Hot Dog place: D HOT G WURSTWAREN KLOBASSE 2.40 WALDVIERTLER 2.80 DEBREZINER 2.50 FRANKFURTER 2.50 PUSTAWURST 2.30 BRATWURST 3.00 KASEKRONER 3.00 HOT-DOG HOT-DOG KLOBASSE 2.70 HOT-DOG WALDVIERTLER 3.00 HOT-DOG DEBREZINER 2.00 HOT-DOG FRANKFURTER 2.00 HOT-DOG PUSTAWURST 2.60 HOT-DOG BRATWURST 3.30 HOT-DOG KASEKRAMER 3.30 ANKER--This is a popular chain of bread shops. See www.anker-brot.at for the full line of breads. TORTEN--The following were offered at the Gerstner cafe in the Kunstmuseum: TORTEN/CAKE/TORTE/TARTE Dobos 2.90 Clara Wieck 2.90 Facher 2.90 Topfen 2.90 Gerstner 2.90 Linzer 2.90 Nuss 2.90 Obst 2.90 Sacher 2.90 Trufiel 2.90 Karl V 3.10 Haustate 3.00 Mohntorte 3.00 Himbeerschnitten 2.60 NIGHTFLYS CHAMPAGNER--The Nightfly night club has its menu of champagne drinks listed: CHAMPAGNER DRINKS Champagner cocktail Ritz Harry's Pick Me Up French 75 Alfonso Cocktail Kir Royal Kir Imperial IBU--CHampagner, Apricot Brandy, Brangensaft 9.50 Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon"--Champagner, Absente Happy New Year--CHampagner, Cognac, Port Ruby Buffalo Bill--Champagner, Bourbon, Whiskey, Pfirsichlikor Simply Comfort GELATERIA The Gelateria has a nice take-away menu that I have here. These are the flavors: Ananas, Apfel, Bacio, Bacio Bianco, Banane, Caffe Bianco, Cassata, Cubana, Dulce de Leche, Erdbeer, Erdbeer Joghurt, Fiocco, Grapefruit, Haselnuss, Heidelbeer, Himbeer, Joghurt Natur, Kaffee, Kiwi, Koks, Mandel, Malaga, Mango, Manna, Maracuja, Maroni, Marille, Mascarpone, Melone, Oberskirsch, Orange, Panna Cotta, Pfirsich, Pistazien, Schokolade, Richard, Stracciatella, Tiramisu, Topfen, Torroncino, Vanille, Walnuss, Zitrone, Zuppa Inglese These specialities are made: Eiskaffee, Eiskaffee Fest, Orange-Coup, Coppa Amarena, Martini Coup, Eierlikor Coup, Spaghetti Coup, Pfirsich Coup, Schoko Coup, Himbeer Coup, Jeisse Liebe, Fruchtbecher, Marsala Coup, Schwarzwalder Kirsch, Weinbrand Coup, Bananen Split, Frucht Joghurt Pokal, Erdbeer Coup, Coppa Garda, Coppa Maronita, Kiwi Coup, Eisschokolade, Iceberg Pokal, Hawaii Coup, Spiegelei, Diat Coup, Wald Coup, Topfen Coup, Heidelbeer Coup, Tropical Coup, Caramel Coup, Coppa Mascarpone, Coppa Bacio, Passions Coup, Baiser Coup, Coppa Cereali, Mozart coup, Sekt Coup, Mangia e bevi, Coppa Amaretto, After Eight, Coppa Golosa, Coppa Baba, Kinder-Portion, Eiskrapfen, Diabetikereis From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:11:10 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:11:10 -0700 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 2002 to 11 Jul 2002 (#2002-167) Message-ID: > I'm from an area where "Don" and "Dawn" are pronounced differently. > (The Catskills. If The Twilight Zone is still being rerun, it's easy > to hear a native speaker of my dialect. Rod Serling was from the > next county, and to me he has no accent.) > > I now live in the Twin Cities, where natives don't make that > distinction. I'm not a trained linguist, but informal investigation > indicates that Minnesotans find it hard to hear the distinction. Maybe it's just me, but I hear people making such a distinction(although not all of them do)around here in the Pacific NW. I wonder if this is just a "Midewestern thing?" Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:14:42 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:14:42 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Fritz: > Perhaps this is an isogloss that separates Oregon from Washington (I would be > very surprised, though), because I pronounce 'hock' and 'hawk' with all their > meanings exactly the same and I cannot ever recall anyone distinguishing > them--that would have struck a chord right off. Of course, their must be > some old logger in the hills or > farmer in the southern part of the Willamette Valley who makes a difference. > I periodically poll my students on such matters and this one is almost 100% > in agreement with my usage--the few who do not are invariably webfoot > wannabes, but not natives. Again, hmmmmmm. . . . . maybe it's just a generational difference, although I really don't know. Or maybe it's a usage thing. I haven't heard too many people speak about putting things into "hock" but there are plenty of "hawks"(birds, football teams, and the like), and that kind of "hawk" is pronounced differently from "hock". IOW, it doesn't rhyme with lock. > What do mean *think*?! :-) There's just something cool about someone who > doesn't mind a little liquid sunshine. Well, we sure aren't rain wimps. But people in most other parts of the country are. At least during the winter months. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:21:33 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:21:33 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Peter: > On the other hand, I distinguish hawk-hawk (though not merry/marry/Mary, > etc.) and find it outlandish that anyone would merge them, and yet I was > just as surprised as Allen and Anne to learn that I'm apparently surrounded > by people who do (merge them). I apparently "project" my pronunciation on > those around me. I don't think there's a Washington/Oregon isogloss, > though I also have to disqualify myself as a "pure" representative of > Pacific NW speech, since I moved here in 5th Grade and both my parents came > from other parts of the country. However, similar backgrounds are shared > many, many other people residing in the Northwest and contributing to its > linguistic mix. Well, it's true most people in Seattle and surrounding areas have come here from other parts of the country and bring their pronunciations and peculiarities with them(which makes for some awfully interesting results). My mother lived a good part of her life on the East Coast and made those kinds of distinctions all the time(in fact she insisted on doing so), and some of this has probably rubbed off on me, since I only conflate about half of the pronunciations that Fritz says his students conflate in the Portland area, and hawk-hock isn't one of them. However, some people who hear me talk end up asking me if I was born in Boston or somehwere similar. To them, I just don't sound quite "Northwestern", although I've lived here all my life, except for two years in Central Texas, where I began picking up all *their* "dialectical" pronunciations. > > In another post, Matthew Gordon observed: > > "Labov's TELSUR project found noone in the NW who had a consistent > distinction between the low back vowels. The general pattern is as expected > of waves of the future: younger speakers merge while older speakers are > variable." > > I suspect there must be a lot more complexity behind the word "consistent" > and the variability among older speakers than is captured in this simple > statement, and more to the agreement of Allen, Anne and myself in favor of > the distinction than a simple failure of all three of us to correctly > observe our own speech. I, too, suspect something "generational" going on here, but what do I know? I'm not a linguist. Just a Starving Writer who loves words. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sat Jul 13 02:25:41 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:25:41 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: David: > I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair > differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair > cited. > That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). Anne G From dcoles at SHAW.CA Sat Jul 13 04:32:06 2002 From: dcoles at SHAW.CA (Devon Coles) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:32:06 -0700 Subject: The Photos? Message-ID: Apolgies for bumbling around here, but I accidentally deleted the recent message with the photos . . . Can someone let me know the poster's name, the date of the posting or something by which I can search the list archives? Or better yet, maybe someone could just email me a copy (dcoles at shaw.ca)? thanks . . . Devon Coles From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Jul 13 06:34:50 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:34:50 -0400 Subject: Interesting glossary website Message-ID: Came across the following website by chance, and thought it might be interesting to ADSers. http://www.angelfire.com/geek/APRACE/glossary.html Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <007f01c229eb$e52bc6e0$1eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: >I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair >differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair >cited. Yup. That's it. RIma From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: yahoo email: medieval equals medireview In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Some of you may be interested in the following, especially if the word >"medireview" ever comes up when you're searching. > >http://www.ntk.net/2002/07/12/#HARD_NEWS So we're back to African-American is the Color of My True Love's Hair... Rima From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 07:37:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:37:47 -0700 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <005001c22a14$966c7d00$36adf5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: >That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same >principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). >Anne G The amond/almond is completely different - for me anyway. The first is an ash, the crucial syllable in the second rhymes with palm. More like the difference in the pronunciations of Nevada. Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 10:31:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:31:27 -0400 Subject: Austrian McDonald's, Pizza Hut & more Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. "Vienna waits for you" is the Mastercard placemat greeting at the airport. FREIHET FUR PALASTINA--Graffiti seen near Sigmund Freud Park. CRAZZY DOGGG--An ad for a "hot dog" snack, also at Sigmund Freud Park. See the web site at www.crazzysnacks.com. The ad states, in perfect German: "The New Snack. Great Taste Included." NASCHMAKT BUFFETRESTAURANT--Thank goodness I did "nosh." Today's special is "Chicken Wings," if you can translate that. JACOBS ICE PRESSO, NESCAFE WHITE ICE--Two drinks seen at the SPAR supermarket. ICE=EIS? Doesn't anyone here speak Deutsch? SAMMY'S SUPER SANDWICH--American sandwich bread, sold at SPAR. It's by "Harry backer selt 1588." Sammy wears the stars and stripes. AMERICAN STYLE SANDWICH--The SPAR brand sandwich bread. Stars and stripes are on the package. KELLOGG'S CRUNCHY NUT CORN FLAKES (HONIG & NUSSE)--Well, there's a little German here. CAFE CENTRAL KONDITOREI: TORTEN UND SCHNITTEN: SACHERTORTE 2.50 CAFE CENTRALTORTE 2.50 TRUFFELTORTE 2.50 ORANGENCHARLOTTE 2.50 ESTERHAZYSCHNITTE 2.30 GEB. TOPFENSCHNITTE 2.30 PLUNDERGEDACH 1.20 APFELSTRUDEL 2.70 "MUNCHER WEISSWURST" 5, "SCHWEINSSCHNITZEL" 8.35, "SCHWEINSBRATEN" 6.50, "MOZZARELLASALAT" 5.80--today's specials at a place here. What's with the quotations? PIZZA HUT Maybe this is on the web site. These pizzas are offered: MARHERITA SALAMI COUNTRY--Mozzarella, Schinken und Mais VEGETARIAN ohne Fleisch! TROPICANA KIETA ohne Fleisch! RODEO SPECIAL WELLNESS ohne Fleisch! (WHat places use "Health" and what places use "Wellness"?--ed.) TEXAS SHANGHAI EXPRESS BOMBAY DELIGHT THUNFISCH LOVER'S FLORIDA CHICKEN McDONALD'S Again, maybe this is on a web site somewhere. The placemat features: HONOLULU CHICKEN MAUI CHEESE POTATOES (I don't recall cheese potatoes from my trip to Hawaii--ed.) GRILLED TEXAS BURGER BROCCOLI CHEESE NUGGETS BIGXTRA! BRAZIL RIO ROLLCHEN McAFRICA KONGA CHICKEN STICKS (I suppose McDonald's feels it's fashionable to use English in food names?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 10:36:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:36:32 -0400 Subject: Penetration Packages (military speak) Message-ID: On today's DrudgeReport.com, it says that China may have "penetration packages" to defeat U.S. missile defense systems. Does the military have to borrow the terms used in good old sex? From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 13 12:16:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:16:23 -0400 Subject: pom / palm In-Reply-To: <005001c22a14$966c7d00$36adf5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: #David: # #> I suspect that pom/palm (like, for me, bomb/[Italian] balm) is a pair #> differentiated solely by length. I have [bam] / [ba:m] in the second pair #> cited. #> #That sounds like "amond/almond" to me. At least it follows the same #principle. And I say "almond" the same way I say "palm"(like "pom"). What is "amond" with no written "l"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sat Jul 13 13:06:43 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:06:43 -0500 Subject: The Photos? In-Reply-To: <003501c22a26$3ee53dd0$e1d44318@inque> Message-ID: > Apolgies for bumbling around here, but I accidentally deleted the recent > message with the photos . . . Can someone let me know the poster's name, the > date of the posting or something by which I can search the list archives? Or > better yet, maybe someone could just email me a copy (dcoles at shaw.ca)? > > thanks . . . > Devon Coles Did you mean my original message? I'll append it below. mk ________ Dear all, I've started a collection of original photos relevant to language variation: http://www.bsu.edu/classes/kuha/lgphoto/lgphotos.html I hope some of you will find the images entertaining or maybe even useful. The most recent photos can be viewed and downloaded in color or B&W. There are only 4 items so far, but I'm happy to announce that one of these is the Muncie Hawk Shop that Herb Stahlke noticed! A colleague told me that the owners of Millinium Motors have replaced their hand-written business sign with a more formal one, so I will try to get that one soon. -Mai From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 13:50:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:50:35 -0400 Subject: Sacher-Torte, Weiner Schnitzel, Kaiserschmarren & more Message-ID: LIBRARIES The National Bibliothek is open Monday-Friday 9am-4 pm, so it's closed today and tomorrow. I didn't feel like going my first day here (I walked around the city and went to museums). So I'll have just a few hours on Monday; if it takes a day to deliver books, I'm sunk...I'll ask if, like the NYPL, it has a menu collection...The NB is in a huge imperial palace and it took me a while to find it...I paid 5 euros (euro?) for the "NB" today and got an exhibit. I tried to visit a University library to read old Vienna newspapers, but no one knows where such a library is. WEINER SCHNITZEL--Figlmuller advertises "The most famous Schnitzel in Vienna." It's "seit 1905," so it's not an antedate for "Schnitzel." See www.figlmueller.at. SACHER-TORTE--See www.sacher.com. I got a pamphlet from the Hotel Sacher. If you don't know where that is, it's in Vienna, just opposite Starbucks. From the pamphlet: "The history of the world-famous Original Sacher-Torte began in 1832, when the 16-year old apprentice cook Franz Sacher created this dessert at the court of Prince Metternich. In the meantime, it has become the most famous torte in the world and the hand-written recipe is a 'state secret' of the hotel. Packed in an elegant wooden box, the Original Sacher-Torte is delivered worldwide and contains no chemical additives." CAFE CENTRAL KAFFEE (I forgot to give this--ed.) GROSSER BRAUNER 3.30 KLEINER BRAUNER 2.35 VEILANGERTER 3.10 EINSPANNER 3.10 CAPPUCCINO 3.65 KAFFEE HAG 3.30 KAFFEE MARIA THERESIA 5.40 FIAKER KAFFEE 5.40 IRISH COFFEE 6.00 (Again this confounding German!--ed.) MMMMMMMMMMHM--Just above the sandwich, on display in a SUBWAY shop. Why the "H"? ALL YOU CAN EAT--Another "German" sign, for www.mapitom.at. CAFE VOTIV The following is at the Cafe Votiv (www.cafe-votiv.at) near Sigmund Freud Park: DOLLAR CHIPS 2.20 WEDGES 2.20 (Is "wedges" German at all? It's everywhere--ed.) TOASTS 3.60 FRANKREICH--Brie mit Apfelscheiben mit Preiselbeeren MEXIKO--Fleischsauce, Mais, Pfefferoni m. Kase gratiniert HAWAII--Schinken, Kase und Ananas VOTIV--Speck, Zweibel, Mais mit Kase uberbacker CAFE GRIENSTEIDT I liked the selection of torten. No web address for this centrally located cafe? TORTEN UND STRUDEL SACHERTORTE 3.20 MICHADERTORTE 3.20 GRIENSTEIDTTORTE 3.20 TOPFENTORTE 3.20 MALAKOFFTORTE 3.20 FRUCHTEJOGHURTTORTE 3.20 SCHWARZWALDERTORTE 3.20 APFELSTRUDEL 2.70 TOPFENSTRUDEL 2.70 DIABETIKERSCHNITTE 2.70 KAISERSCHMARREN (EMPEROR'S PANCAKES)--Served at many places. The CAFE MOZART says "Browned omlette with stewed plums 6.80." MOZARTWURSTELL (MOZART'S SAUSAGES) are "a pair of Frankfurters with mustard and horseradish 5.40." GREEK FARMER SALAD (GRIECHISCHER BAUERNSALAT)--Seen at a place that also serves Caesar Salad. It's usually "Greek Farmer Salad" here, not simply "Greek Salad." Google both names. One restaurant's is 6.00 and has "Bell peppers, cucumber, olives, feta cheese, olive oil-dressing and oregano." ZANONI & ZANONI GELATERIA This is a busy place, at the CAFFE BRISTOL, dal 1919. One sandwich was of possible interest, and the rest are desserts. TRAMEZZINO--Thunfisch, Schinken, Mozzarella & Tomaten 2.10 mit Lachs 2.30 PROFITEROL 3.00 TIRAMISU 2.60 CANNOLO BUSSY 1.00 TOSCANELA 3.10 SACHERTORTE 3.20 MANDELTORTE 3.20 NUSSTORTE 3.20 TOPFENTORTE 3.20 SELVA NERA 2.60 TORTA DELL NONNA 2.60 TORTA DI MELE 2.60 MONTE ROSE 2.60 APFELSTRUDEL 2.60 PANNA COTTA 2.60 HOTEL SACHER So you want to eat at the Hotel? Sacher's Tafelspit with apple-horseradish sauce, chive sauce and roasted potatoes 23 Filet of beef a la "Anna Sacher" with goose and Madeira sauce, spinach souffle 27 Viennese potato soup with mushrooms 7 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 13 15:51:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: Sacher-Torte, Weiner Schnitzel, Kaiserschmarren & more In-Reply-To: <1B154395.035F8192.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #WEINER SCHNITZEL--Figlmuller advertises "The most famous Schnitzel in #Vienna." It's "seit 1905," so it's not an antedate for "Schnitzel." #See www.figlmueller.at. Wner, surely. -- Mark M. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 16:08:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:08:07 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle Message-ID: Yeah, I meant "Wiener." I have to think too much on these "ie" and "ei" words when I'm typing. It's usually just "schnitzel" here. Dave Barry's column in today's HEARLD-TRIBUNE is on internet spam. Cutting-edge stuff for about 1995. WAREZ--In the July 13-14 INTERNATIONAL HERLAD TRIBUNE, pg. 1, col. 4, a story about internet software pirates that's from the NEW YORK TIMES: Many of the pirates say they were motivated less by money than by a sense of competition, prestige and the entertainment value of distributing the pirated goods, which they call "warez." IRRATIONAL PESSIMISM, BOOMERANG ECONOMY--In the IHT, pg. 6, col. 3, "A swing to irrational pessimism," David Ignatius's piece, originally in the WASHINGTON POST. "Let's call this the 'boomerang economy,' whose operating principle is that what goes around comes around." RADATZ--"Deli" is not used here, but this looks like one. See www.radatz.at. LOVE PARADE--Vienna had one, too, but it's over. See www.loveparade.at. BERMUDA TRIANGLE--An area of Vienna when tourists get lost. I haven't yet found it. Similar to the area in Budapest called "Chicago." VILLAGE SHITS--I asked the guy here at the Mercure Hotel desk for some slang, but he refused. He said there are quite a few Hebrew/Yiddish words that they use; this was without my prompting him on this. He said that Germans call Austrians "Village Shits." He wouldn't write down the German, but you can figure it out. From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 13 16:09:49 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:09:49 -0400 Subject: The Word Spy for 07/12/2002 -- steampunk Message-ID: Good one, Paul. I created the 1991 e-book/catalog Beyond Cyberpunk! (on HyperCard) that covered the various sub-genres of cyberpunk sci-fi and the burgeoning "cyberculture" of the Internet. Some other cyberpunk "micro-genres" of the time: Ribofunk - Created by sci-fi author Paul DeFilippo, ribofunk was sort of an inversion of cyberpunk. Where c-punk focused on the mind, computers, logic, the virtualizing of the human body, ribofunk emphasized the body, bio-technology, the libido, A-life (artificial life), etc. Where cyberpunk's musical muse was punk rock, ribofunk's was funk and soul. Splatterpunk - Took the alienation, dystopian near-futures and amphetimine-fueled prose of c-punk into the horror genre. Chief practitioners were Clive Barker and John Shirley (a.k.a. "cyberpunk patient zero"). Cybergoth - More of a marketing tag than anything else, "cybergoth" was used by Games Workshop to describe their Road Warrior meets Eldritch magick post-apocalyptic game Dark Future (and used in the series of novels that supported it). Some of this "cybergoth" influence lives on in Games Workshop's far-future "gothic sci-fi" game Warhammer 40,000. Freestyle - A shortlived sub-genre of c-punk practiced by then-Bay Area writers Rudy Rucker, Marc Laidlaw, Richard Kadrey and others. Inspired by freestyle surfing and chaos theory (no, really). The idea was to damn all genres and "write like yourself, only moreso." Transrealism - Taking off on the "write like yourself, only moreso" adage of freestyle, Rudy Rucker published his Transrealist Manifesto. It called for combining the intensity of cyberpunk prose and the "fifteen minutes into the future" immediacy of the genre with the anything-goes openess of freestyle and the use of your own life experiences as your muse in writing fiction. Rucker claims that all of his work has become "transrealist." He takes real characters and situations from his life, grossly exaggerates them and projects them into the near future. Rucker says that, eventually, he wants to publish a CD-ROM will all of his novels on it. The reader will be able to click on any passage, in any book, and be linked to Rucker's journals, so one can see what was going on in his real life at that point and how it got mutated into fiction. Re: Steampunk One of the central inspirations of steampunk was Charles Babbage's "Difference Engine," a proposed computational device that many speculate would have worked if the technology had existed at the time to machine the many mechanical parts. So steampunk asks the question: what would have happened to history if computers and the information age had existed concurrently with the industrial revolution of the 19th century? Gar Paul McFedries wrote: > steampunk (STEEM.punk) n. > > A literary genre that applies science fiction or fantasy elements to > historical settings and that features steam-powered, mechanical > machines rather than electronic devices. Also: steam-punk. > > Arcanum is a prime example of steampunk, a subgenre of science > fiction that explores the displacement of ancient ways by modern > technology. Like Thief, with its steam-powered mechanical robot > guards, Arcanum reconfigures the fantasy genre by imagining a past of > magic and sorcery clashing with a present distinguished by advanced > mechanical technology. > --Charles Herold, "Yielding (or Not) to the Magic of Exotica," The > New York Times, October 4, 2001 > > See Also: > > chick lit: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/chicklit.asp > > hiss and tell: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/hissandtell.asp > > Kmart realism: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/Kmartrealism.asp > > issue literature: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/issueliterature.asp > > Judas biography: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/Judasbiography.asp > > me-moir: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/me-moir.asp > > plutography: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/plutography.asp > > tart noir: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/tartnoir.asp > > Backgrounder > --------------------------------- > Although there are antecedents, William Gibson's 1982 novel > _Neuromancer_ is generally considered to be the first example of > a literary form called "cyberpunk." This science fiction subgenre > places computers, networks, and electronics (the "cyber-" part) > inside a future that is anarchic and often dystopian (the "punk" > part; from the anarchic, dystopian punk rock music of the mid- to > late-70s). Move the setting to the past, especially the Victorian > age, take out the electronics and replace them with mechanical > devices, especially elaborate, steam-powered contraptions, and > you have a new genre: steampunk. > > Steampunk imagines what the past would have been like if the future > hadn't happened so quickly. It imagines, in other words, what > engineers and inventors might have come up with if they'd had > another, say, one hundred years to tinker with mechanical and > steam-powered machines. (Some examples: a steam-powered > flamethrower; a spaceship made of steel and wood.) > > I should note, as well, that people are also describing other media > as "steampunk," especially video games and movies. For the latter, > the steampunk label has been applied to films such as Wild, Wild > West, Brazil, and even Edward Scissorhands. > > Here's the earliest citation I could confure up for today's word: > > Jeter, along with fellow novelists Tim Powers and James Blaylock, > seems to be carving out a new sub-genre of science fiction with his > new book. Whereas such authors as William Gibson, Michael Swanwick > and Walter Jon Williams have explored the futuristic commingling of > human being and computer in their "cyberpunk" novels and stories, > Jeter and his compatriots, whom he half-jokingly has dubbed > "steampunks," are having a grand time creating wacko historical > fantasies. > --Michael Berry, "Wacko Victorian Fantasy Follows 'Cyberpunk' Mold," > The San Francisco Chronicle, June 25, 1987 > > ======================================================== > Words About Words: > --------------------------------- > It is the enormous and variegated lexicon of English, far more than > the mere numbers and geographical spread of its speakers, that truly > makes our native tongue marvelous -- makes it, in fact, a medium for > the precise, vivid and subtle expression of thought and emotion that > has no equal, past or present. > --Robert Claiborne, American editor and writer, _Our Marvelous Native > Tongue_, 1983 > ======================================================== > > The WordSpy mailing list is now available in an HTML version that > bears an uncanny resemblance to the pages on the Word Spy Web site > (see the address below). If you'd like to try it out, send a note to > listmanager at logophilia.com and include only the command "html > wordspy" (without the quotation marks) in the Subject line. > > For more Word Spy words, see the Word Spy Archives: > http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/ > > You are currently subscribed as garethb2 at earthlink.net. > To remove this address from the list, you have two choices: > > Send a message to listmanager at logophilia.com and include only the command > "leave wordspy" (without the quotation marks) in the Subject line. > > Or, > > Click the address below, or paste it into your Web browser: > http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/list/remove.asp?Email=garethb2 at earthlink.net&ID=14674 > ======================================================== > > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 13 17:08:54 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:08:54 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <093F145B.274749E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: According to http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/CUDS8/cud853, the Usenet group alt.binaries.warez was in existence in 1996 when it was being deleted from a server, so it was likely founded sometime before then. Does anyone know where you can find when a Usenet group was started? Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 9:08 AM > WAREZ--In the July 13-14 INTERNATIONAL HERLAD TRIBUNE, > pg. 1, col. 4, a story about internet software pirates > that's from the NEW YORK TIMES: > Many of the pirates say they were motivated less by > money than by a sense of competition, prestige and the > entertainment value of distributing the pirated goods, > which they call "warez." From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 17:10:09 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:10:09 EDT Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: For me palm, balm, almond, Palmer, calm are pronounced without /l/ and are exactly the same as pom, bomb, Com-. This I think I am right in saying, was the usual Northern US way of doing things, until the spelling pronunciationists got involved and the /l/s came back in, cf. "often" with /t/. I think it was Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost. In E. New England there was also no /l/ in the good old days, but the vowel of palm was the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front vowel, lower and distinct from ash) while Com-, etc. has a low back rounded vowel, the same as the vowel in Caught. Don't know what the Southern situation is, but would guess that /l/ is coming back there too....or is it possible that it's always been there through the centuries at the dialect level? Does the UK have /l/ in these words in any dialects? I don't think so, certainly not in RP. /l/ was also lost after ash (half, calf, salmon, and should be lost in salve, but especially in the verb has made a big comeback for those who use it in, in Shakespeare, for example), or in folk, yolk. Dale Coye From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 17:14:39 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:14:39 -0700 Subject: Penetration Packages (military speak) In-Reply-To: <3AEB53E6.3D62C6D8.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > On today's DrudgeReport.com, it says that China may have > "penetration packages" to defeat U.S. missile defense systems. > > Does the military have to borrow the terms used in good old sex? I never heard that one, but I am familiar with "pen-aids," or "penetration aids." This one dates to 1989 and probably much earlier. There is also the "PMS Avenger." PMS = Pedestal Mounted Stinger. It's a humvee with four stinger anti-aircraft missiles mounted on a pedestal. Also 1989. From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 17:48:25 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 10:48:25 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > According to http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~cudigest/CUDS8/cud853, the > Usenet group alt.binaries.warez was in existence in 1996 when it was > being deleted from a server, so it was likely founded sometime > before then. Does anyone know where you can find when a Usenet group > was started? If the group started post-1981, you should be able to find the earliest messages on Google (Advanced Groups search). They may not have the very first messages for a particular group, but they'll probably come pretty close. For alt.binaries.warez, Google has a post from 13 Dec 1995. Google doesn't archive binaries groups, but you can still get a feel for the date from crossposting. There are a total of 3 crossposts to alt.binaries.warez that month and about 30 in Jan 1996. So it looks like a December 1995 date for its inception. Google also has posts to alt.warez.ibm-pc.apps from Oct 1995. It also has December 1995 posts to alt.2600.warez. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jul 13 18:01:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:01:30 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <002d01c22a95$7d978190$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 10:48:25AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > > If the group started post-1981, you should be able to find the earliest > messages on Google (Advanced Groups search). They may not have the very > first messages for a particular group, but they'll probably come pretty > close. > > For alt.binaries.warez, Google has a post from 13 Dec 1995. Google doesn't > archive binaries groups, but you can still get a feel for the date from > crossposting. There are a total of 3 crossposts to alt.binaries.warez that > month and about 30 in Jan 1996. So it looks like a December 1995 date for > its inception. > > Google also has posts to alt.warez.ibm-pc.apps from Oct 1995. It also has > December 1995 posts to alt.2600.warez. If you're interested in the word "warez" there's no real interest in when the first newsgroup devoted to warez arose; what matters is when the word "warez" itself first appeared in Google Groups. And the first Usenet post with the word seems to have been in 1987, in a post to comp.society.futures. This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but perhaps (I haven't particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. Michael Quinion, any opinion? Jesse Sheidlower OED From e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET Sat Jul 13 18:11:20 2002 From: e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:11:20 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: The "abeets" pronunciation certainly extended to (perhaps I should say permeated) Bridgeport, as did the designation "pie". Enid Pearsons ============== I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for | "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's | Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone | outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? | Larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 18:15:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:15:25 EDT Subject: Dumspam of the week Message-ID: I just got a pornospam that read "When was the last time you had an "E" Cup in your: Hand". That's even worse than the trial last week for a boating accident, in which a defense witness said the defendant "was always very conscientious of his surroundings". - Jim Landau P.S. to Barry Popik: That "hot dog frankfurter" was a bad translation of the old proberb "Kissing a man without a mustache is like eating a hot dog without the mustard." From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 18:17:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:17:47 EDT Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle Message-ID: In a message dated 07/13/2002 12:08:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > BERMUDA TRIANGLE--An area of Vienna when tourists get lost. I haven't yet > found it. "Finding" it is a logical impossibility. You are a tourist. If you manage to reach the place where tourists get lost, then you cannot be said to have "found" the place, since you can't be found if you're lost. From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Jul 13 18:17:54 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:17:54 -0700 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <20020713180130.GA6882@panix.com> Message-ID: > If you're interested in the word "warez" there's no real > interest in when the first newsgroup devoted to warez arose; > what matters is when the word "warez" itself first appeared > in Google Groups. And the first Usenet post with the word > seems to have been in 1987, in a post to > comp.society.futures. True, it doesn't help with finding the point of origin, but I wouldn't say there's "no real interest" in knowing when a Usenet group arose. But for computer/internet terms like "warez," the appearance of Usenet groups devoted to them may be a good indication of when the term came into widespread use among hackers/computer-types. > This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but > perhaps (I haven't > particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. Michael > Quinion, any > opinion? It's also surprising that there's an eight-year gap between the term's appearance and the founding of Usenet groups devoted to warez. I would have thought the period would have been much shorter. Then again, as I type this I realize that 1994-95 is the period when widespread public access to the Internet became available. So maybe the Usenet dates aren't significant at all. The groups started then because that's when there were large numbers of hackers on Usenet. Never mind. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 18:27:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:27:10 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: <007501c22a98$b5038ea0$6701a8c0@planetb> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0400 7/13/02, Enid Pearsons wrote: >The "abeets" pronunciation certainly extended to (perhaps I should say >permeated) Bridgeport, as did the designation "pie". > >Enid Pearsons > >============== > I don't know if "abeets" (apizza) for >| "pizza" extends beyond the villages that populated New Haven's >| Wooster Street neighborhood in the early 20th century. Anyone >| outside New Haven come across this pronunciation? > >| Larry Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) Larry From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sat Jul 13 18:39:34 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:39:34 +0100 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <20020713180130.GA6882@panix.com> Message-ID: > This is earlier than I had expected to find the term, but perhaps > (I haven't particularly thought about it) it's earlier still. > Michael Quinion, any opinion? I'm a little surprised it's that early. (I've been trying the same Google search, but attempts time out before getting an answer.) The first printed example in my database is from 1996 and the first time I remember seeing it online is a couple of years earlier. It belongs in the same class as creative misspellings like 'd00dz' and so is presumably of the same vintage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Jul 13 19:24:00 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:24:00 -0400 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: I wouldn't dream of inserting an L in palm, salmon &c. or a T in often: to me it's decidedly NC, so I am puzzled by the claim by "Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost." For my speech I would agree that "the vowel of palm was the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front vowel, lower and distinct from ash)" but since the cot-vowel is unrounded for me it's possible that pom has the more back vowel and palm the more central one. BTW, for me almond is L-less and has a long low ash. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 13 19:55:31 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:55:31 -0500 Subject: "Kicktales"--mispronunciation of "cocktails" Message-ID: At 10:59 PM -0400 7/7/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >I received this question from a colleague: > >> A book of jokes and humorous anecdotes collected by a Richmond >> lawyer, John G. May, Jr., is entitled "Courtroom Kicktales" >> (Charlottesville, VA: Michie, 1964). The author uses "kicktales" >> as a synonym for "jokes" as in "The following three kicktales as >> told by Judge John C. Williams." Have you ever come across this >> expression? It is not in the OED, Lighter, DARE, or several other >> sources. A Google search for "kicktales" produced no hits and >> "kicktale" (singular) produced just one, referring to a part on >> some device for racing in water (I couldn't tell what). I would >> appreciate any information about the word. > >I am not familiar with the word; has anyone else encountered it? > >Fred Shapiro The answer is found on page 59 of _Courtroom Kicktales_, under the heading "LAPSUS LINGUAE": "Mrs. Elegant, who flung the party at Newport, had John Smith arrested for using obscene language. She was on the stand at the trial. Mrs. Elegant: 'I had invited John solely because he is the son of an old friend. When sober there was little connection between his brain and tongue, and when he had several drinks they parted company altogether. When the guests were leaving he was telling me what a good time he had had, finally coming out with : "Ah, I tell you, Mrs. Elegant, them kicktails had one on them like a mule."' Judge Smaht; 'I shall dismiss the defendant under the principle of lapsus linguae [slip of the tongue to my friends in Hoboken]." ****** Btw, "lapsus linguae" in the last sentence appears in italics, and the bracketed comment at the very end ("slip of the tongue to my friends in Hoboken) is made by the author, John May. And the judge's name is spelled "Smaht" (with -h-). So "kicktales" may be understood as "tales with a kick," just as the cocktails that John Smith drank had a kick like a mule. The book consists of jokes, humorous anecdotes, humorous poems etc. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 20:25:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:25:23 -0400 Subject: 1881 Vienna menu Message-ID: The Theodor Herzl-Hof is a short walk from where I'm staying. Herzl invented Zionism; in response to pogroms, he thought that it would be a good idea if Jews had a homeland to call their own. That was before our current enlightened age--we now know that Zionism is racism. EURO/EUROS--I was told that it should be EURO DOLLARS. People I've heard say EURO, not EUROS. NEWSPAPER BAGS--These things are all over the city. In NYC, they're the newspaper boxes where you get your VILLAGE VOICE. Here, they're plastic bags. You're kindly requested to take just one newspaper, and to leave the proper amount in a metal box. I don't know if there's a special name for this. SUMMERSTAGE DRINKS--Pancho's at Summerstage offers: HORNY TOAD MARGARITA--zitronensaft, lime juice, triple sec, sauza hormitos 8 CAIPIRAIHA--limetten, rohrzucker, lime juice, tequila 6.2 CAIPIRINHA--rohrzucker, limetten, cacheca 6.2 CAIPIROWA--limetten, rohrzucker, vodka 6.2 LEBOWSKY--milch, kaluha, vodka, auf eis 6.2 VERY LONG ISLAND--triple sec vodka, rum, tequila, gin, cola 12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The HOTEL STEFANIE (owned by that great "Austrian" chain, Best Western) used to be called WHITE ROSE, but changed its name in 1881. The 2 May 1881 GALA-DINER menu, in French and German, celebrating the marriage of Prince Rudolph of Austria-Hungary and Princess Stephanie of Belgium, is in the window: Potage a la Reine--Geflugel-Suppe mit Geflugelklosschen Petites croutes aux mouviettes--Kleine Lerchen-Pastetchen Truites, sauce hollandaise--Forellen mit hollandischer Sauce Piece et filet de boeuf--Englischer Braten und Rindslende Timbale de becasses a la financiere--Schnepfen-Pastete Escalopes de homard a la Maintenon--Hummer-Scheiben mit Libesapfel Sorbet Poulardes a la polonaise. Salade--Gebratene Poularden mit Salat Asperges en branches--Stangen-SPargel Pouding a la Chipolata--Chipolata-Pudding Moscovite aux oranges--Orangen-Gelee Fromage national et hester--Einheimischer Kase und hester-Kase Glace aux griottes et fromage de dames--Weischselkirsch-Eis und Eis-Cremetorte Desert--Nachtisch The HOTEL STEFANIE has these drinks and desserts: STEFANIE SURPRISE--Blue Curacao, Vodka, Zitrone, Sekt 6.90 PALM BEACH (Alkoholfrei)--Maracuja Sirup, Grapefruitjuice, Orangenjuice, 5.10 KAFFEESPEZIALITATEN EINSPANNER--Grosse Kaffee mit Schlagobers 3.20 IRISH COFFEE--Grosser Kaffee, Irish Wisky, Schlagobers 6.55 MARIA THERESIA--Grosser Kaffee, Grand Marnier, Schlagobers 5.80 FIAKER KAFFEE--Grosser Kaffee, Rum, Schlagobers und Schokolade 5.10 (It's "Irish Coffee" on every menu! It's the "Hot Dog" of drinks!...Did OED finally add "Maria Theresa"?-ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 13 20:32:06 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:32:06 -0500 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten--not in WorldCat Message-ID: Barry asks if _Kochbuch f?r Israeliten_, 1815, is available in the U.S., but I don't find it listed in WorldCat. Would there perhaps be a better sleuth out there than I who could locate a copy? Gerald Cohen At 11:45 AM -0400 7/11/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN > > StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buche der >Staatsbibliotek), also available at >http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. > I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable >results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, >it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. > Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR >ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any >library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by >inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 13 23:07:38 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:07:38 -0400 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten--not in WorldCat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Barry asks if _Kochbuch f?r Israeliten_, 1815, is available in the U.S., > but I don't find it listed in WorldCat. Would there perhaps be a > better sleuth out there than I who could locate a copy? There is nothing in Eureka either for this title. Fred Shapiro From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 13 23:26:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:26:55 -0400 Subject: Even more Austrian food Message-ID: I guess I'll pay a student to copy the 1815 cookbook. This had better have the whole magilla of Jewish food. FWIW: here's a magazine called HAWK that's sold here. It seems to have naked pictures of young girls. ITAL EISSALON AM SCHWEDENPLATZ A popular spot. See the web site at http://www.gelato.at. PIZZA AND PASTA BUON GIORNO ITALIA AL CAPONE (pizza)--Tomaten, Kase, Schinken, Salami, Champignon, Speck, Yweibel, Oregano 6.90 NORDSEE A BISMARCK BAGUETTE is 1.95, a BREMER BAGUETTE is 1.75. Under KULT-SNACK, "FISH & CHIPS" is given, just like "HOT DOG" and "IRISH COFFEE." However, below that is the German "3 Stuck Backfisch 2.95, 4 Stuck Backfisch 3.50." And if you want just the "CHIPS," they don't have that, but they have "POMMES FRITES 2.25." A Popik restaurant review: Nordsee Fish & Chips are awful! I have tons of schnitzel stuff here, but I'll leave that for another time. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 01:53:05 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:53:05 -0400 Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn said: >> (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) << In the FWIW department, re _apizza_: I was picking up a pizza today from Jerry's Pizza in Middletown, CT. Jerry was there. He appears to be in his 60s, and has a thick Italian accent. Though many Middletown residents of Italian heritage hail originally or ultimately from Sicily, and many from Middletown's sister city of Melilli, not Jerry. I asked Jerry about _apizza_. His response was that the word is not SPELLED that way, that it is only said like that. Now in Italy, with its prestige Northern dialect, that suggests to me that the form _apizza_ is, per Jerry, dialectal (at best) or ignorant, i.e., not in keeping with standard form. I asked Jerry where he was from in Italy, and he proudly said, "Napoli". Of course, Jerry could simply have been demeaning the New Haven area Italian Americans. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 02:08:40 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:08:40 -0400 Subject: 1881 Vienna menu In-Reply-To: <636A0E89.2EC12376.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry P said: >> NEWSPAPER BAGS--These things are all over the city. In NYC, they're the newspaper boxes where you get your VILLAGE VOICE. Here, they're plastic bags. You're kindly requested to take just one newspaper, and to leave the proper amount in a metal box. I don't know if there's a special name for this. << On a different but related note, I am struck by the relatively recent practice in the US (elsewhere, too?) of small convenience stores and restaurants having a penny tray at the cash register, where one can leave or take a penny or two to make exact change. Some of these say on them "Give a penny, take a penny", but I don't know if there is one term to apply to this practice. I did not notice this practice in my youth or early adulthood (I'm 51), but it seems quite widespread now (though not in large chain stores). As to the increasing unimportance of the penny, I add that a 30ish person I was speaking with last week said that she throws away pennies she finds in her pocket at the end of the day. This surprised me, but some others of the same age range said they do this, too. Frank Abate From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 02:09:22 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:09:22 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: In a message dated 7/12/02 12:08:52 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << t is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). >> It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" article. Steve Boatti From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 14 02:12:42 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:12:42 -0400 Subject: FW: apizza; pie Message-ID: What Steve says below jibes with what Jerry the pizza parlor guy said to me, as posted just a bit earlier. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Steve Boatti Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 10:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: apizza; pie In a message dated 7/12/02 12:08:52 AM, douglas at NB.NET writes: << t is speculated here and there that "pizza" is from a Germanic origin (perhaps Lombard "bizzo" or so, meaning "bite"/"morsel"/"cake"), cognate with English "bite" or German "Biss". This might not be very consistent with the existence of a variant "a[p]pizza" in southern Italy (presumably reflecting Latin prefix "ad"). >> It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" article. Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 02:14:07 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:14:07 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/13/02 2:26:09 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) >> This explains why, while you find an "apizza" stand in Meriden, you don't find any in Middletown, which has a large Italian population and is only 7 miles away. Most of the Middletown immigrants came not from Campania, but from a small Sicilian town named Melilli. Steve Boatti From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 14 02:42:06 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:42:06 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: Mark: > What is "amond" with no written "l"? It's "almond" the way most people around here(Pacific NW) seem to pronounce it. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 14 02:43:51 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:43:51 -0700 Subject: pom / palm Message-ID: Dale: > For me palm, balm, almond, Palmer, calm are pronounced without /l/ and are > exactly the same as pom, bomb, Com-. This I think I am right in saying, was > the usual Northern US way of doing things, until the spelling > pronunciationists got involved and the /l/s came back in, cf. "often" with > /t/. I think it was Thomas Murray in a St. Louis study who showed that the > lower classes maintained /l/-less ness in these words, but the upper classes > were putting them back in after centuries of having been lost. In E. New > England there was also no /l/ in the good old days, but the vowel of palm was > the same as the vowel of r-less car (so calm and car have the same low front > vowel, lower and distinct from ash) while Com-, etc. has a low back rounded > vowel, the same as the vowel in Caught. > Don't know what the Southern situation is, but would guess that /l/ is > coming back there too....or is it possible that it's always been there > through the centuries at the dialect level? Does the UK have /l/ in these > words in any dialects? I don't think so, certainly not in RP. /l/ was also > lost after ash (half, calf, salmon, and should be lost in salve, but > especially in the verb has made a big comeback for those who use it in, in > Shakespeare, for example), or in folk, yolk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the distinct impression that the sounded l in those words was NE US. I don't know about the South either, but I can't recall anybody in Central Texas sounding the l's in those word either. Anne G From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Jul 14 02:49:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:49:19 -0400 Subject: Euro Dollar Message-ID: I'm not sure what the context of "euro dollar" was, but "eurodollar" has an established meaning: A U.S. dollar on deposit with a bank abroad, especially in Europe. I don't know if this ever causes confusion with the new euro currency. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Sat 7/13/2002 4:25 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: 1881 Vienna menu EURO/EUROS--I was told that it should be EURO DOLLARS. People I've heard say EURO, not EUROS. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Jul 14 04:44:40 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:44:40 -0700 Subject: pom/ palm Message-ID: Having grown up among palm trees in the Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas, I can assure you that no one there ever pronounced the in , which was always rendered with an /a/. Ditto for . But here in Tucson, I hear some of the self-conscious newspersons on TV pronouncing an /l/ in and . Dale's comments about the low front [a] used in (of the hand) in New England explains the folk-etymologized pronunciation of /paen/ found in the North; I once encountered it from a retired farmer in west-central Illinois. Rudy From douglas at NB.NET Sun Jul 14 06:51:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:51:00 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >It is my belief that "apizza" derives from Southern Italian dialects that >render the Italian feminine definite article "la" ("the") as "a." Thus >standard Italian "la pizza" is "a pizza" in these dialects. I have heard >numerous Italian-American older people say it and similar words with the "a" >article. I've seen this idea somewhere else too. But this doesn't answer the question to my satisfaction. Assuming a dialect where the feminine definite article is written "a", I would expect "a pizza" to appear in that dialect in place of standard Italian "la pizza" ... but in place of standard "pizza" I would expect dialectal "pizza". Or to put it differently, if e.g. "Abate Apizza Restaurant" is an equivalent of "Abate La Pizza Restaurant" then to correspond to the many "[Name] Apizza" places I would expect to see many examples of "[Name] La Pizza" or "[Name] Lapizza" ... and I don't see these AFAIK. Because of my deplorable broad ignorance of Italian and its dialects, I can't judge whether a reanalysis such as "La pizza" > "L'ap[p]izza" or "Una pizza" > "Un'ap[p]izza" would be plausible ... perhaps leading to "pizza" > "ap[p]izza"? For that matter, in dialects with "la" replaced with "a" are there things like "a amica" (= "l'amica" = "the friend"), or does the definite article just disappear in such a context, or is the "L" preserved sometimes? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 07:50:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 03:50:43 -0400 Subject: Sheidlower, Metcalf in FINANCIAL TIMES Message-ID: Are Jesse and Allan trying push me to a posting record or what? Both are in the FINANCIAL TIMES, July 13/July 14, 2002, pg. 7, cols. 6-7: _Respect to_ _the lingo of_ _the Yanks_ Bling-bling, borking, borscht. The Oxford English Dictionary has recognized a new regional variation, writes _Holly Yeager_ (The article represents shocking new market insights. Jesse feels that the market is overvalued, but Allan thinks this represents a good buying opportunity...Nah, I made that part up. They give us no financial advice--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 13:57:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:57:34 -0400 Subject: Schonbrunn's "Apple Strudel Show" Message-ID: I apologize for past spelling errors (Wiener, Potsdamer Plotz, Pessimism, et al.). My brains are still in Alaska. I visited Schonbrunn today, the palace of Franz Josef and others. I asked to see any historian on duty. Were there any historical menus of the place that I could look at? Well, no, there weren't. I was told that Franz Josef ate apple strudel, but that's to be expected in Vienna in the 1800s. There were a few strudel books (in German) for sale, but I didn't see any solid historical information on the dish in any of them. Schonbrunn has a bakery, and a chef gave a demonstration of baking apple strudel. There is a pamphlet with this web info: www.cafe-wien.at, residenz at cafe-wien.at. I asked the chef if there was anything in Vienna like our CIA (Culinary Institute of America), where I could walk in and look at books and menus. She said there wasn't. So it all boils down to one day, Monday, where I'll have to do all my research into the history of a major European cuisine in just a few hours. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 14:39:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:39:40 EDT Subject: 1881 Vienna menu Message-ID: In a message dated 07/13/2002 10:09:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I am struck by the relatively recent > practice in the US (elsewhere, too?) of small convenience stores and > restaurants having a penny tray at the cash register, where one can leave or > take a penny or two to make exact change. Some of these say on them "Give a > penny, take a penny", but I don't know if there is one term to apply to this > practice. I did not notice this practice in my youth or early adulthood > (I'm 51), but it seems quite widespread now (though not in large chain > stores). I refer to the little trays as "penny buckets". My impression is that the practice appeared and became widespread very suddenly. When? Perhaps early 1980's. I recall an occasion, I think early 80's but I'm not sure, when I stopped in a rural Pennsylvania village on the first day of hunting season. (On the way I had seen no less than four road-kill deer, so this particular hunting season was overdue.) I recall in some store (probably a mini-grocery attached to a gas station) there was a penny bucket with a sign on it reading "Need a penny? Take a penny? Nedd two pennies? Get a job." I wonder if 7-11 or some other nationwide chain decided that having penny buckets, as well as being a for-real convenience to its customers, would also add a nice homey touch to their check-out counters. This guess, if correct, would explain why the practice, previously unknown, blossomed so widely so quickly. The cafeteria where I work (which I imagine sells 1,000 lunches per day) has three cashiers and each one has a penny bucket, a policy which, if I remember correctly, began when new management took over a couple of years ago and make a big fuss about how friendly their employees were. Large stores with multiple checkout lines such as Safeway, Super-Fresh, K-mart, Walmart, etc. do not use penny buckets for a reason. In such stores each cashier, when reporting to a cash register, is issued a cash drawer with a standard amount of cash in it. That way if a customer ever complains of being shortchanged, the manager simply counts the cash in the cash drawer, checks the computerized register for the amount taken in since the cashier logged on, adds the standard issued amount, and then answers the customer yes or no based on whether a discrepancy is found. Use of a penny bucket would make for small errors in the reconciliation, enough perhaps to make it impossible to determine if a customer's complaint were correct, since it is common to feed the penny bucket from the penny bin in the cash register tray whenever it gets low. In a convenience store the cashiers do not log in---there are long gaps sometimes between customers, and whichever employee is nearest the checkout counter when a customer is ready becomes the cashier. Also in a large multi-checkout-line store, if a cashier runs low on pennies, s/he simply "buys" a roll from the manager. In a 7-11 or similar store, it is not uncommon for the register to run low on x denomination of coins, and there is no central cash source to buy rolls of coins from. If the register runs out of pennies, the penny bucket comes in handy (or else the cashier simply forgives the pennies beyond 5 or 10 cents). -Jim Landau FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Sun Jul 14 17:10:58 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:10:58 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: A Google search returns a number of lapizza hits, most of which are not in English. The following site is in English, but it doesn't refer to the edible pizza. http://www.sics.se/~larre/lapizza/ George Cole Shippensburg University From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 21:41:33 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:41:33 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: FWIW, the website of Modern, an old line "apizza" shop in New Haven, asserts that apizza is Naples slang for pizza. Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Sun Jul 14 21:44:33 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 17:44:33 EDT Subject: Italian-Americanisms? or regionalisms? Message-ID: << In a message dated 7/13/02 2:26:09 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Yes, in response to Enid's and Frank's posts, I realize that "greater New Haven" with respect to the "apizza" a-BEETS designation extends west to Bridgeport (in exchange for lending us their "Frisbie" pie plates) and north to Meriden. I was wondering more about the areas outside the Wooster Street sphere of influence. (One of these days I'll locate my student's senior essay in which he tracks the New Haven Italian dialect to its source in two small villages in Campania.) >> >> A Google search for "apizza" yields resaturants with this word in their name as far afield as Naugatuck, Derby and Waterbury, CT, and Mokena, IL. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 01:24:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:24:55 -0400 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. There is a Big Apple nightclub at www.nightlife-vienna.com/BA/. If you solve the Big Apple, you don't get anything from the club. Much like New York City itself. EURO: That thing about "Euro" being from "Euro Dollar" was from the guy at the internet place, so that's how reliable it was. The coins have "EURO CENT." The bills (there is no one Euro bill) have "EURO." Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? DEMEL Demel has been around since 1786. See www.demel.at. I went there and bought there English language pamphlet, 12 FAMOUS DEMEL-RECIPES (Vienna, 1995). It's about 20 pages, with no page numbers. The recipes are: Marble Gugelhupf, Golden Crescents, Viennese Ladies (Looks like Ladyfingers--ed.), Amadeus Discs, Casatta Bombe, Strawberry Cream Cake, Marzipan Apples, Nut or Poppy Seed Strudel, Vanilla Crescents, Iced Coffee Roll, Crescent Moons, Durnsteiner cake. GERSTENER This popular place has been around since 1847. See www.gernstner.at. I didn't see anything special at that site. LEHMANN Another confectionary web site is www.lehmann-wien.at. SCHNITZEL MENU MIKI'S SCHNITZELBOX, Leopoldsgasse 11, gave me a menu. So here's your schnitzel: KLEINE SPEISEN: Schnitzelsemmel 1.90 Schnitzelsemmel garniert 2.20 Schnitzelburger 2.70 Cordonburger 2.90 Pljeskavicaburger 3.00 Cevapciciburger 3.00 Fischburger 2.70 Kaseburger 2.70 Gemuseburger 2.70 Putenschnitzelsemmel 2.40 Putenschnitzelsemmel garniert 2.60 Putenburger 3.10 (Obviously, a Russia favorite?--ed.) Putencordonburger 3.30 Toast (Kase + Schninken) 1.90 Langos 1.70 Pizzalangos 2.40 Debrezinerlangos 2.40 GROSSE SPEISEN: Emmenthaler gebacken 4.60 Champignon gebacken 4.60 Gemuselaibchen gebacken 4.60 Karfiol gebacken 4.60 Huhnerleber gebacken 4.60 Huhnerleber gerostetet 4.80 Bohnensuppe 3.40 Krautrouladen 4.00 VOM SCHWEIN: Grillteller 9,50 Wienerschnitzel 3.50 Naturschnitzel 3.70 Pariser Schnitzel 3.80 Cordon Bleu 4.00 Bauernschnitzel 4.60 Pleskavica (fasch. Laibchen nach Balkanart) 5.50 Spiess 2 Stk. & Beilage 5.50 Cevapcici 6 Stk. & Beilage 5.50 Berner Wurstel & Beilage 5.50 Scholle gebacken 5.30 VON DER PUTE: Putenschnitzel 4.20 Pariser Schnitzel 4.70 Naturschnitzel 4.80 Cordon Bleu 5.10 Bauernschnitzel 5.30 BEILAGEN: Pommes Frites 1.40 Bratkartoffeln 1.40 Petersilienkartoffel 1.50 Reis 1.40 Kartoffelsalat 1.40 Mayonaisesalat 1.50 Gurkensalat 1.40 Gemischerter Salat 1.40 Gruner Salat 1.50 Palatschinken 2.40 Pudding 1.50 From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 15 08:37:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:37:41 +0100 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel In-Reply-To: <13DEB65B.70CB43E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" > on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? There is some confusion over this. It rests on a misunderstanding of the original EU directive, which seemed to suggest that "euro" is invariant in the plural in all circumstances. This is observed by many organisations in formal documents, including the Irish and British central banks and other financial institutions. However, in popular usage the usual orthographic rules take precedence. The English Style Guide of the European Commission Translation Service, at , takes this commonsense approach: > 12.12 Guidelines on the use of the euro, issued via the > Secretariat-General, state that the plurals of both 'euro' and > 'cent' are to be written without 's' in English. Do this when > amending or referring to legal texts that themselves observe this > rule. Elsewhere, and especially in documents intended for the > general public, use the natural plural with 's' for both terms. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 15:17:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:17:46 -0400 Subject: Polka in Vienna (1839); Julius Meinl Message-ID: Greetings from Vienna. Frankfurt is Lufthansa's hub, so I fly back there tomorrow. I have to stay overnight and I'll arrive about 4 p.m.; I'll possibly have half an hour of library time. I fly to Kiev on the 17th. ----------------------------------------------------------------- JULIUS MEINL This is a great place to shop for food, like Balducci's in New York. See www.meinl.com, or www.meinlamgraben.at. ---------------------------------------------------------------- DOES ANYONE IN VIENNA HAVE A MENU COLLECTION? I didn't see menus on the web site of the Osterreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://www.onb.ac.at. I asked, was sent to another division, and then was told they had none. I was sent to the Kaiser's silver collection (Sure, silver knives and forks. That's close), and the information person there didn't know either. Let's say you're in the food business in Vienna. You, say, cater an affair for the Kaiser's wedding. You throw that menu out? Wouldn't you print it about a thousand times? Where is an Austrian menu collection? I was told to see a recent book by one Bakos, GAUMENSCHMAUS UND SEELENFUTTER, but I'll do that in the states. ---------------------------------------------------------------- POLKA IN VIENNA OED's first "polka" is 1844, although I've found 1843 in English. The OED note states that "polka" went from Prague in 1835 to Vienna in 1839. I went to the Technical University (anything to get out of the N.B., waited an hour, and was brought 1839-1840 volumes (the size of 10 phone books) OESTERREICHISCH KAISERLICHE PRIVILEGIRTE WIENER ZEITUNG (later, just WIENER ZEITUNG). 27 August 1839, pg. 1202, cols. 2-3 ad: Im Berlage der f.f. hof u. priv. Kunst und Rusitalienhandlung des Tobias Haslinger in Wien, am Graben, im Edlen von Trattnernschen Frenhofe Rv. 618 ist neu erstschienen und zu haben: _Die beliebte neue POLKA. Bohmischer Nationaltanz fur das Pianoforte._ Componirt von Pet. Pergler, Capellmeister des burgerl Scharfschutzen-Music Corps in Prag. Preis 15 fr. 25 September 1839, pg. 1346, col. 2 ad: Joh. Hoffmann in Prag (...) des Tobias Haslinger (...) Original Bohmische Nationaltanze. (...) Hilmar (Fr.), Polka a la Lutzer f. d. Pianoforte 15 fr. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 15:39:48 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:39:48 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>bird, at least) >>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>> Anne G >> >>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>homophones. >>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>"hawk". >> >Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >Mary/merry/marry ones. > How are you on hoarse horses? Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 15:58:53 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:58:53 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel said: > >ISTR a finding, prob. by Labov, that people can maintain distinctions in >their own production that they fail to recognize in other people's >speech or their own. Absolutely. Labov has several papers on the topic, and there's extensive discussion in his 1994 book. In addition, Marianna Di Paolo and I had a paper on this phenomenon in Language Variation and Change in 1995. Marianna has some additional work specifically on the cot/caught near-merger in Utah. Essentially, many folks produce words in these classes more distinctly when they're not focussing on the contrast. That is, if the lists of words they're reading into a tape recorder just contain words in the COT and CAUGHT classes, there's less distinction than if the words are embedded in a list in which all English vowels are represented. In addition, people's accuracy at labeling the two classes in a classic speech perception experiment is only somewhat above chance, but they can make use of the presence or absence of a distinction in making the social judgements implicit in a matched guise experiment. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:13:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:13:01 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Laurence Horn said: >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> > >How are you on hoarse horses? > >Alice > OK, OK, I already confessed to dInIs. No distinction among hoarse horses. Or coarse courses. Please delete the overenthusiastic "all" above. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:16:46 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:16:46 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >>Laurence Horn said: > > > >>>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>>homophones. >>>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>>"hawk". >>>> >>>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>>Mary/merry/marry ones. >>> >> >>How are you on hoarse horses? >> >>Alice >> >OK, OK, I already confessed to dInIs. No distinction among hoarse >horses. Or coarse courses. Please delete the overenthusiastic "all" >above. Well, that's what I get for breaking my rule of never responding to posts before I've plodded through accumulated backlog. In other words, I didn't see dInIs' post (and the subsequent discussion) until after I'd posted. Mea culpa. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 16:35:58 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:35:58 -0700 Subject: Euro(s) In-Reply-To: <13DEB65B.70CB43E0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: It's common in many European languages not to inflect the name of their currency for number, at least when giving a specific amount or the denomination of a bill or coin. E.g., pre-Euro Germany had eine Mark, zwei Mark, etc., Holland had een Gulden, twee Gulden, etc. Austria officially had ein Schilling, zwei Schilling, etc.--however, "zwei Schillinge" was common in colloquial speech. One of my instructors in a German-for-foreigners class in Vienna (way back when) told us that lots of people said "zwei Schillinge" but that that was incorrect. So it would be natural to extend this pattern to the "Euro." Britain always had "one pound, two pounds." (But I noticed once that South Africa apparently had "one Rand, two Rand.") --On Sunday, July 14, 2002 9:24 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The coins have "EURO CENT." The bills (there is no one Euro bill) have > "EURO." Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard > "EUROS" on BBC just now. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 16:57:54 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:57:54 EDT Subject: Euro(s) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/2002 12:36:42 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << It's common in many European languages not to inflect the name of their currency for number, at least when giving a specific amount or the denomination of a bill or coin. >> This is true in many areas of the American South as well, at least where pennies are involved. Many times I have been told by locals, "Your change is [eighteen, etc.] cent." From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 15 18:19:46 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:19:46 -0400 Subject: Warez, Irrational Pessismism, Bermuda Triangle In-Reply-To: <3D3081F6.5209.2631940@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > I'm a little surprised it's that early. (I've been trying the same > Google search, but attempts time out before getting an answer.) The > first printed example in my database is from 1996 and the first time > I remember seeing it online is a couple of years earlier. It belongs > in the same class as creative misspellings like 'd00dz' and so is > presumably of the same vintage. d00d5 and other similar terms I've always known as B1FF5P3AK -- B1FF was a prolific and amusing poster in the early days of USENET who used alphanumerics constantly. -- Steve From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 15 18:37:40 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:37:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I done asked and he done cofessed. dInIs >Laurence Horn said: >>At 10:28 AM -0700 7/11/02, A. Maberry wrote: >>>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: >>>> >>>> INteresting. I've *always* pronounced "hock" and "hawk"(the >>>>bird, at least) >>>> differently. Maybe other parts of the country are different from the >>>> Pacific Northwest in this respect? >>>> Anne G >>> >>>Maybe so. For me, "hawk" (the bird) and "hawk" (one's wares) are >>>homophones. >>>"Hock" as in "hock shop" and "ham hock" are also homophonous, but not with >>>"hawk". >>> >>Ditto on both counts from this New Yorker, but of course we preserve >>all our orthographically maintained vowel distinctions, down to the >>Mary/merry/marry ones. >> > >How are you on hoarse horses? > >Alice > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 19:44:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:44:57 -0400 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog Message-ID: The exchange rate gets worse every day. I hope I still have money when I get home. Another Austrian web site, from the guys who cater next to the Silver collection: www.eurestcatering.at, and catering at eurest.at. --------------------------------------------------------------- AUSTRALIAN HOT DOG Found at a little hot dog booth: VIENNA'S GOLDEN GATE TAKE AWAY (Yes, an English name--ed.) HAMBURG SCHNITZEL SEMMEL AUSTRALISCHES HOT DOG CHILLI HOT DOG AUSTRALISCHES BIER LANGER (Well, Foster's is advertised on the shack. But what is an Australian Hot Dog? Is that the one with kangaroo?--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- VIENNA COOKBOOKS More tales from Austria's Nationalbibliothek. If I thought it might be like a public library, well, forget that. It's on the second floor. There's a closed wooden door. It says "No Visitors." You go through that. Then you have to be buzzed through a glass door. You're allowed five requests, and it takes two hours. The place closes at 3:45. I told the library guy I wasn't coming back, so I got seven book requests. One book didn't arrive. I sat down in the reading room. There were four other people in the National Library. FOUR! I was told I could copy from the books. Great! I gave it to a woman. She copied a book and a half, and then the copier broke down. There would be no more copying, because _THE_ COPIER broke down. So, this was not a world-record library session here. Plus, I took some time off to go to another library to do the Polka. The book that didn't arrive was ERSTES ISRAELITISCHES KOCHBUCH (1886) by Marie Kauders. Is it anywhere else? I requested books from the 1830s and 1840s. OED has both "sachertorte" and "linzertorte" from 1906, but "linzertorte" is in the 1830s, at least. "Schnitzel" and "strudel" are in the 1830s as well, so I'll have to see if the Library of Congress has any of the earlier books. The N.B. database I used was 1501-1929. "Kochbuch" turns up 212 entries. DIE BURGERLICHE KUCHE, ODER: NUEUSTRES OSTERREICHISCHES KOCHBUCH by Elizabeth Stockel Wien: F. P. Sollinger 1840 The "Inhalt" was thoroughly copied. Krebstrudel...167 Mandelstrudel...167 Topfenstrudel...168 Mohnstrudel...170 Tyrolerstrudel von Butterteig...170 Semmelschmarn...172 Griesschmarn...172 Brioche zu backen..212 Mandeltorte...266 Linzertorte...268 Karmelitertorte...272 Pomeranzentorte...276 Kaisertorte...277 Zwieback...301 Aepfelstrudel...407 DIE WAHRE KOCHKUNST, ODER: NEUSTES GEPRUSTES UNDE WILLSTUNDIGES PESTHER KOCHBUCH by Joseph Eggenberger Pesth 1835 Kaiser-Puding...196 Spanisches Brod...200 STRUDELN. Apfelstrudel...237 Chocoladestrudel...238 Tyrolerstrudel...244 Kaiberne Schnitzeln...313 Apfeltorte...335 Kaisertorte...353 Linzertorte...354 Mandel-Bogen...372 (Mark Mandel is all over these cookbooks--ed.) Aneis-Kucheln...383 Mandel-Brod...394 Neapolitaner Kipfeln...399 Spanische Bretzeln...402 (Spanish pretzels?--ed.) Zwieback, franzosischer...407 Tutti Frutti, Gefrornes...449 DIE WIENER-KOCHEN WIE SIE SENA SOLL Thersia Ballauf, verebeligten Muck Wien: Franz Zimmer 1834 "Biegel, lammernes, auf hollandische Art" is on page 394. Pg. 55: Chocolate-Strudel. Pg. 68: Krebsschmarn. Pg. 70: Mandelstrudel. Pg. 248: Kohlrabi, gefullter. Pg. 340: Judenbratel. Pg. 355: Kaiserschnitzeln. Pg. 366: Schnitzeln. Pg. 367: Speis. Pg. 548: Kaiser-Torte. Pg. 550: Linzer-Torte. Pg. 576: Bretzeln von Mandeln. Pg. 577: Brtezeln von Zucker. Pg. 587: Mandel-Brot. NUESTES UNIVERSAL, ODER: GROSSES WIENER-KOCHBUCH by Anna Dorn Wien: Franz Zendler 1834 (There are earlier editions of Anna Dorn's cookbook--ed.) Pg. 139: Sago-Pudding. Pg. 148: Krebsstrudel. Pg. 149: Strudel, mit Aepfel gefullt. Pg. 159: Judenbraten. Pg. 230: Kalberne Schnitzel. Pg. 289: Linzer-Torte. Pg. 306: Pfannkuchen. Pg. 344: Bavaroise. Pg. 446: Bogel. (Probably not a bagel--ed.) ALLGEMEIN BEWAHRTES WIENER KOCHBUCH by F. G. Zenfer Wien: Carl Gerolb 1844 Pg. 200: Lammernes Biegel. (Listed under "Uchter Ubscnitt. Bon den Braten."--ed.) Pg. 234: Aepfelstrudel. Pg. 280: Linzer Torte. Pg. 297: Italienischer Salat. Pg. 357: Kaiserbrot. Pg. 365: Mandelbrot. Pg. 386: Kleines Zwieback-Brot. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jul 15 19:57:59 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:57:59 -0700 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog In-Reply-To: <6CB2EF90.21693D71.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >The book that didn't arrive was ERSTES ISRAELITISCHES KOCHBUCH (1886) >by Marie Kauders. Is it anywhere else? According to OCLC, there is a copy at the New York Academy of Medicine Library. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 21:01:42 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:01:42 -0700 Subject: Vienna cookbooks, Australian Hot Dog In-Reply-To: <6CB2EF90.21693D71.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Sounds like the city hasn't changed much since my student days! (The country where there are double doors to every building, and invariably only ONE door opens only ONE way--right?) (Forty years later, 6,000 miles away, and the place still drives me crazy. Wien, Wien, nur du allein...) Sorry. --On Monday, July 15, 2002 3:44 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > There's a closed wooden door. It says "No Visitors." You go through > that. Then you have to be buzzed through a glass door. You're allowed > five requests, and it takes two hours. The place closes at 3:45. ... > I was told I could copy > from the books. Great! I gave it to a woman. She copied a book and > a half, and then the copier broke down. There would be no more > copying, because _THE_ COPIER broke down. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 21:38:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:38:22 -0400 Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: "SECULAR" BEAR MARKET I'm losing my religion! From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 15 July 2002, pg. M1, col. 6: _U.S. Bear Market_ _Could Last Years,_ _Some Predict_ (...) If so, stocks could be in the midst of a longer period of sluggishness--what some analysts call a "secular" bear market--schacterized by brief and frustrating rallies, after which stock gains are wiped out by repeated pullbacks. --------------------------------------------------------------- OFF TOPIC: "MASTERCARD MOMENTS" Flying over here, I sat in a row of four seats. The other three seats were taken by a woman with two young children. The flight attendant come over and asked about my son. I told her otherwise. And then, later, she beamed about my son again. So I looked over at my wife... At the Schonbrunn Palace, a woman asked for a headset in French. Then I was given a headset, also in French. So I'm thinking: which wife do I like better? Bruce Gould is a guy a new in law school. He's associated with Gould legal publications, and he does fundraising for the school. He didn't greet me and didn't look at me much the first three days of the Berlin conference. Then, on the last day, we went to the Sachenhausen concentration camp. "Barry, Barry, Barry," he said. "Did you ever give to the college?" "Yes." "Ever think of an endowment?" "I don't make much money," I said. And then I'm thinking: WE'RE AT A CONCENTRATION CAMP! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 21:43:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:43:53 -0400 Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: ...a guy I knew in law school. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 15 22:44:52 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:44:52 EDT Subject: "Secular" Bear Market; OT: Mastercard Moments Message-ID: In a message dated 07/15/2002 5:42:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "SECULAR" BEAR MARKET > > I'm losing my religion! > From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 15 July 2002, pg. M1, col. 6: > > _U.S. Bear Market_ > _Could Last Years,_ > _Some Predict_ > (...) > If so, stocks could be in the midst of a longer period of sluggishness-- > what some analysts call a "secular" bear market--schacterized by brief and > frustrating rallies, after which stock gains are wiped out by repeated > pullbacks. "Secular" meaning "Of a fluctuation or trend: Occurring or persisting over an unlimited period, not periodic or short-term" (OED2, def 8) is a term of long standing in economics and statistics---the OED's first citation of this sense is 1895. It comes from the same Latin word as "secular" meaning "wordly, not sacred" but the latter meaning is the one that diverged, since the Latin word "saeculum" meant "generation" (compare modern French "siecle"="century"). The antonym is "periodic" or "short-term" (thank you, OED). The quotation uses the word correctly. It predicts a bear market that will continue over a long time but that will not necessarily be continuous---there may be "brief...rallies" but the overall trend will be bearish. If you had studied engineering instead of law, you'd know things like this. > Flying over here, I sat in a row of four seats. The other three seats were taken by > a woman with two young children. The flight attendant come over and asked about > my son. I told her otherwise. And then, later, she beamed about my son again. If you had been acting lovey-dovey towards the woman, the flight attendant would have concluded, correctly, that the two of you were NOT married, despite the presence of the children. It was the fact that you were apparently taken her for granted that clued the attendant (in this case incorrectly) that you were married. It happens all the time. In fact, not even OT, since it is a form of non-verbal communication. What you should have done was to put your arm around the boy and say in a proud tone, "He looks just like the milkman." The flight attendant would have left you alone for the rest of the trip. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Tech Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Jul 15 23:27:40 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:27:40 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: Has anybody else noticed this latest journalese excrescence? There's obviously a style book somewhere that urges journalists to avoid the use of the conjunction "that". I.e., thou shalt write: "He said he had been at home sleeping at the time of the crime," not: "He said THAT he had been at home...." This has somehow gotten translated into an absolute prohibition against EVER using "that" as a conjunction. I keep hearing the results on NPR, whose correspondents sound like they're using an infinitive construction but pereversely leaving out the "to." Every time, it pulls me up short, then I try the alternate "that" construction, with optional deletion of the "that" and think, grudgingly, "all right--I guess it's at least marginally grammatical." I keep meaning to remember the example verbatim and ask this list about it, but by the time I arrive at work, sure enough I've forgotten it. This morning I heard a particularly bizarre example, and I REMEMBERED IT! In a report on John Walker Lind's surprise guilty plea, the correspondent (or was it Bob Edwards--he's guilty of all of these style-book oddities) said that Lind's lawyers had planned to "ask the judge disallow" statements Lind had made under interrogation by U.S. agents in Afghanistan. Now I submit that this actually crosses the line. "...ask the judge TO disallow" would be fine, and so would "ask THAT the judge disallow," but to me, *"ask the judge disallow" is just plain not a grammatical AE sentence. What's wrong with "ask the judge TO disallow," for God's sake? Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge disallow" something? No more rants today--I promise. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 00:32:08 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:32:08 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: The following communication from a real flesh-and-blood Neapolitan, in response to my query to the listserv of the Italian-American Historical Association, may shed further light on the meaning of "apizza:" From: alessandro buffa First of all let me say hello to all members of the list since I just subscribed to it. I am from Naples but I'm moving to New York to do graduate studies next month. I can confirm that in Neapolitan dialect "la pizza" is written "a pizza" and pronounced "/a pizz/". So, I agree with Steve Boatti about the origin of the word "apizza" in New Haven, CT. Best regards, Alessandro Buffa Subject: Fwd: "Apizza":Boatti > From: Ittaob at aol.com > > Many of you may know that in New Haven, CT, the local word for "pizza" seems > to be "apizza," as shown in the name of many pizzerias in that city and > environs. It is usually pronounced "a-beets." On the listserv of the American > Dialect Society, there is an ongoing debate about the origin of the word > "apizza." > > Do any subscribers to this list have any information about this? My own view > is that it is simply Neapolitan for "la pizza," from the use of "a" for "la" > ("the"). Is this likely? Others have speculated that the "a" is from the > Latin "ad", "to". (In Italian, "a" also means "to.") Another thought was that > "la pizza" or "una pizza" became "l'apizza" or un' apizza", much as in > English "an ewt" became "a newt." > > Steve Boatti > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 16 02:43:52 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 19:43:52 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <619730.3235739260@[10.218.203.234]> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > disallow" something? > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading whatever is in the copy? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Jul 16 03:05:50 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:05:50 -0700 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Alice: > How are you on hoarse horses? > > Alice > Can't hear the difference, other than in context. But I've never come across a hoarse horse. Anne G From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Tue Jul 16 06:34:03 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:34:03 -0400 Subject: Cambridge Grammar book review Message-ID: Review of the new Cambridge Grammar of the English Language is at: http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html Notable quote: "We should not expect too much from linguists; they are witnesses not judges." Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 12:54:34 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:54:34 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/02 11:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET writes: > I've never come across a hoarse horse. Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 16 13:14:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:14:34 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: <87.1e4182aa.2a64c388@aol.com> Message-ID: >I can confirm that in Neapolitan dialect "la pizza" is written "a pizza" >and pronounced "/a pizz/". So, I agree with Steve Boatti about the origin >of the word "apizza" in New Haven, CT. OK, so what is the sense of "apizza" in this item? http://www.repubblica.it/forum/votoestero/x990415195002.html <> Is "un apizza" here to be equated to "un[a] la pizza"? Seems odd to me. Is it just a typographical error? Then what about this one? http://www.luccaonline.it/clienti/lapizza/ Is this "L'Apizza" equivalent to "La La Pizza" (even though it's not in Los Angeles)? Here is "l'apizza capricciosa". http://www.editricezona.it/contorni.html (BTW these aren't from Connecticut.) I'm still mystified. -- Doug Wilson From rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 16 13:21:04 2002 From: rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick Kennerly) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:21:04 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: > >Now I submit that this actually crosses the line. "...ask the judge TO >disallow" would be fine, and so would "ask THAT the judge disallow," but t I admit that it's odd. But it's also spoken. My sense of Bob Edward's style has always been that while he works from written text or notes he tends to freelance what is written so that it sounds more natural when spoken. Unfortunately, he sometimes talks himself into a corner in the process. On the other hand, I've heard NPR commentators read themselves right into a different corner, victims of the copywriters. Most instances are pretty funny because the sentence frequently doesn't make any sense at all and the commentator is left with the problem of stumbling back through to correct the phrase or just letting it go. Sometimes I'll hear an error on the first live broadcast and notice that it's been corrected in the subsequent rollovers. Sometimes, the editors just let it go. Frankly, I find the showmanship and daring of live radio broadcasts worth the occasional flub. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 13:26:51 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:26:51 EDT Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: In a message dated 7/15/02 10:44:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > > disallow" something? > > > > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are > fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. > > Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the > Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading > whatever is in the copy? I trust that "I would tend use..." above is a typing mistake and not your normal usage of English? Microsoft Word grammar checker might be useful for illiterates, but it generates so many false negatives that I turn it off or ignore it. E.g. every time I use passive voice the grammar checker complains. I just tried a few sentences. The checker passes 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. 2. Ask the judge disallow something. 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. and correctly objects to 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. That is, the checker finds nothing wrong with 2. above, although I do. One reason for the NPR announcer to have used "ask the judge disallow" is that the phrase is in the subjunctive, which is why we have "[singular] judge disallow" rather than '"judge disallows" of the indicative. Despite purists like me, a lot of educated people ignore the subjunctive except for certain stereotyped expressions that are used without thinking, such as "move that the meeting be adjourned." (Back in the 8th grade, I stumped the entire class by posing that expression. Not even the teacher realized it was in the subjunctive.) So, the announcer, who probably would not recognize a subjunctive construction if one such "was" to slap him in the face, is suddenly confronted with a piece of phrasing in which part of his speech-constructing apparatus is saying "no 's' on the verb" and another part is saying "but third person singular needs an 's'". He was doing pretty good to have finished the sentence meaningfully, albeit ungrammatically. As somebody long ago commented on this list, NPR still hasn't adjusted to having G. W. Bush in the White House, so it's too much to expect to have them make peace with the subjunctive, which is somewhat more elusive than bin Laden. - Jim Landau My grammar's fine, but my grandpa's not feeling so good. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 14:19:06 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:19:06 EDT Subject: NPRSpeak: ASK (TO) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/2002 9:27:33 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > > Is there anyone out there who would find it natural to "ask the judge > > disallow" something? > > > > Highly unnatural for me-- "to disallow" or "that the judge disallow" are > fine. I would tend use the second alternative in speaking or writing. > > Can some of this be traced to copy writers slavishly following the > Microsoft Word grammar checker and to copy readers simply reading > whatever is in the copy? I trust that "I would tend use..." above is a typing mistake and not your normal usage of English? Microsoft Word grammar checker might be useful for illiterates, but it generates so many false negatives that I turn it off or ignore it. E.g. every time I use passive voice the grammar checker complains. I just tried a few sentences. The checker passes 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. 2. Ask the judge disallow something. 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. and correctly objects to 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. That is, the checker finds nothing wrong with 2. above, although I do. One reason for the NPR announcer to have used "ask the judge disallow" is that the phrase is in the subjunctive, which is why we have "[singular] judge disallow" rather than '"judge disallows" of the indicative. Despite purists like me, a lot of educated people ignore the subjunctive except for certain stereotyped expressions that are used without thinking, such as "move that the meeting be adjourned." (Back in the 8th grade, I stumped the entire class by posing that expression. Not even the teacher realized it was in the subjunctive.) >> The presence or absence of "to" in such environments is to some extent geographically and socially determined. Note that there are verbs such as MAKE that (it seems to me) never allow "to" in any dialect (*"Make him to call me"), verbs such as HELP that are totally variable for most people ("Help your little brother to get dressed"), and verbs such as HAVE that allow "to" in the South but not elsewhere ("Shall I have him to call you?" "They almost had their car to break down coming home last night"). This use of "to" with HAVE is quite common in the South, and not at all a conscious marker for Southerners (so one can often recognize a Southerner by this feature even when he or she has made stenuous efforts to eradicate other Southern features). I wrote a little article on this some years ago in AMERICAN SPEECH. I'm not sure if what we have here is really a subjunctive or just an optional deletion of the infinitive marker. From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 14:26:24 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:26:24 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Given that there are only these 3 references to "apizza" in Italian websites (based on a search in the Italian search engine Virgilio), it would seem "apizza" is an extremely rare variant of "pizza" nowadays, at least in Italy. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 15:34:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:34:05 -0400 Subject: Vienna Breakfast; Irish Coffee; BiefBrezel; Nonevent Message-ID: Greetings from Frankfurt. My plane was 45 minutes late. That's the second Lufthansa delay so far. VIENNA BREAKFAST--A bit less than even the Continetnal Breakfast. The Vienna airport has: VIENNESE BREAKFAST--coffee or different falvours of tea, a roll on butter and marmelade 3.50 (A roll on butter? What about butter on a roll? Just how bigt is that slab of butter and how small the roll?...The continental breakfast adds ham&cheese and orange juice--ed.) IRISH COFFEE--The same Vienna airport place has: CAFE CUBA MIT AMARETTO 4.90 CAFE LATINO MIT TIA MARIA 4.90 IRISH COFFEE grosser Mocca mit Whisky 5.50 ("Irish Coffee" again!--ed.) BIERBREZEL--The airport offers this for 1.90. For those people who are too lazy to have Beer & Pretzels, and need both in one. Can kids eat this? NONEVENT--Seen in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, in a page one story about the euro getting stronger than the dollar. It was called, in quotes, a "nonevent." I Googled, and there's 3,720 "nonevent" and 28,200 "non-event." I prefer the latter. I saw the word quickly as "none vent." Is there a word for compounds that break more than one way? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 16 15:50:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:50:03 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <6D1920E2.30D3E95B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > >NONEVENT--Seen in the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, in a page one >story about the euro getting stronger than the dollar. It was >called, in quotes, a "nonevent." I Googled, and there's 3,720 >"nonevent" and 28,200 "non-event." I prefer the latter. I saw the >word quickly as "none vent." Is there a word for compounds that >break more than one way? Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 15:56:45 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:56:45 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:50:03AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > >Is there a word for compounds that > >break more than one way? > > Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: > the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess > these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old > friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. Jesse Sheidlower From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Jul 16 16:05:38 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:05:38 -0500 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <20020716155645.GA26976@panix.com> Message-ID: In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When intentional, they're often called "charades." A couple of examples: God in three persons is not bound by his own pronoun-cements. "Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com >On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:50:03AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> >Is there a word for compounds that >> >break more than one way? >> >> Not that I know of, but my favorite has always been BERIBBONED: >> the intended parse (be-ribboned) vs. the un- (be-rib-boned). I guess >> these are Janus words in a different sense from that of our old >> friends the enantionyms (cleave, sanction,...). > >In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a >failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads >as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no >English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. > >Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 16:11:33 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 11:05:38AM -0500, Erin McKean wrote: > In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When > intentional, they're often called "charades." > > A couple of examples: > > God in three persons is not bound by his own pronoun-cements. > > "Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. "Cow-orker" has long (1989 at least) been in use on Usenet; it's very common. Jesse Sheidlower From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 16:50:30 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:50:30 EDT Subject: Nonevent Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/02 12:06:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM writes: > In Verbatim XXIV/2 they were referred to as "misdivisions." When > intentional, they're often called "charades." "I scream for ice cream!" The classic example is the warning "to ASSUME something is to make an ASS out of U and ME". There are puns that depend on such misdivisions. My favorite: the people at ASCAP who keep logs of what copyrighted songs are played on radio and TV have to study algebra so that they know how to log a rhythm. Shakespeare's Irish plays: Corrie O'Lanus and O'Thello. One of the Order of the Turtle gags runs "It begins with the letter 'F'. It ends with the letters 'UCK'. It's quite common; you can see it anytime you want if you just bother to look." The correct answer is "Fire truck". Speaking of charades, a risque cartoon (I think it was in one of Kermit Schafer's "Bloopers" collections) showed a woman about to enter a charade contest and finding the word she was to act out was "titwillow". If Tennessee What Arkansas Then what did Delaware? The following limerick (I'm quoting from fallible memory) was published by a notoriously straight-laced editor who apparently failed to see the off-color misdivision in the last line: There was a young man from the Clyde Who fell through an outhouse and died His younger brother Then fell through another And now they're interred side by side. - Jim Landau From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 16 16:54:23 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:54:23 -0500 Subject: Penny dishes Message-ID: > > I wonder if 7-11 or some other nationwide chain decided that having penny > buckets, as well as being a for-real convenience to its customers, would also > add a nice homey touch to their check-out counters. This guess, if correct, > would explain why the practice, previously unknown, blossomed so widely so > quickly. > > The cafeteria where I work (which I imagine sells 1,000 lunches per day) has > three cashiers and each one has a penny bucket, a policy which, if I remember > correctly, began when new management took over a couple of years ago and make > a big fuss about how friendly their employees were. > > In a convenience store the cashiers do not log in---there are long gaps > sometimes between customers, and whichever employee is nearest the checkout > counter when a customer is ready becomes the cashier. Also in a large > multi-checkout-line store, if a cashier runs low on pennies, s/he simply > "buys" a roll from the manager. In a 7-11 or similar store, it is not > uncommon for the register to run low on x denomination of coins, and there is > no central cash source to buy rolls of coins from. If the register runs out > of pennies, the penny bucket comes in handy (or else the cashier simply > forgives the pennies beyond 5 or 10 cents). > I cannot speak to all convenience stores, gas station, and the like. BUT, in the gas stations and convenience stores I worked in, ONE person was responsible for a cash drawer and the amount it reconciled to, no matter how many people were ringing up customers. If you had to use "someone else's" register, then you had to enter your cashier code for each purchase. At the bookstore I used to (assistant) manage, it was much the same -- only you had to put in your employee ID number every time you used the register at all. It was usually expected to be off by a few pennies either way, pretty much every shift (especially at the gas stations, where people tend to throw five or ten dollars, say a pump number, and leave -- leaving you short a few pennies or with a few extra in change). We always had a penny dish on the counter, but never really called attention to it. Some cashiers used them a lot, others just let customers noticed it. You never "fill" the penny dish from the register, because that almost never happens to just work out in the end. Most shifts when I controlled my own register the whole time (like you're supposed to), my register worked out to within a few cents either way (usually over, because of people not taking their change). One manager in particular (at an SA) was shocked that my drawer always balanced so well, because most people were off between 50 cents and a dollar over six hours or so. Mine was always within ten cents. Anyway, the dishes are a convenience for customers, and I always put extra pennies in one that's low at all, if I get a few back in change. I never take more than two from the dish (and I think that's how most people work it), but have been know to put in three or four at times if they are weighing down my pockets! And we always called them "penny dishes", by the way, whether in Saint Paul (where I grew up), or in SE Michigan (where I just moved from after graduate school). As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the 'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say "hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota pretty easily. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 17:09:11 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:09:11 -0700 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <27.2a7aa604.2a65a8d6@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 12:50 PM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > If Tennessee > What Arkansas > Then what did Delaware? Perry Como recorded a version of a song which I'm sure was older, because I remember my Dad singing a version to a different tune long before the Como recording came out. The Como version (or as much of it as I remember): What did Delaware, boy, What did Delaware? What did Delaware, boy, What did Delaware? She wore a brand New Jersey, She wore a brand New Jersey, She wore a brand New Jersey, That's what she did wear. How did Wisconsin, boy? Stole a New-brass-key. Too bad that Arkansas, boy, And so did Tennessee. It made poor Flora die, boy, It made poor Flora die, you see, She died in Missouri, yes, She died in Missouri. Why did Cala phone ya, Why did Cala phone? Why did Cala phone ya, Was she all alone? She phoned to say Hawa-ya, She phoned to say Hawa-ya, She phoned to say Hawa-ya, That's why she did phone. Where has Ora gone, boy, Where has Ora gone? If you want, Alaska, Alaska where she's gone. She went to pay her Texaz, She went to pay her Texaz, She went to pay her Texaz, That's where she is gone. My Dad's version included: "What did Ioway? "She weighed a Washington." And there are probably others. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 16 17:17:49 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:17:49 -0400 Subject: Nonevent Message-ID: "James A. Landau" wrote: > > There are puns that depend on such misdivisions. My favorite: the people at > ASCAP who keep logs of what copyrighted songs are played on radio and TV have > to study algebra so that they know how to log a rhythm. During the 2000 Presidential campaign, when the erstwhile Democratic candidate spoke at my campus, someone in the computer science department hung a sign out their window saying something like "Al Gorithm 2000".... (the Supreme Court apparently had a different heuristic in mind....) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 16 17:47:38 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:47:38 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: In my 2001 WOTY submissions, I suggested that a lot of new jargon and slang would likely be emerging in '02 around Wi-Fi networking technology and the growing subculture that's embracing it. This is certainly proving to be the case. The "war" prefix is becoming the new "e" (or "cyber" or "i") in these circles, with "wardriving," "warchalking," "warplugging" and others. "War" in this case comes from "wardialing," the hacker practice of getting a computer to dial a list of phone numbers in search of modem tones (for possible hacker entry). Wardialing, in turn, gets its name from the 1993 film "Wargames," which introduced the idea to legions of would be hacker teens. WARDRIVING is the practice of cruising around in a car with a Wi-Fi wireless-enabled computer running a "sniffer" program in an effort to discover accessible wireless access points (which one can then use to get on the Internet for free). WARCHALKING has got to be one of the most memetically viral terms/concepts ever to spread across the Internet (and into offline media). The idea was proposed by a British computer geek to use a hobo-type symbolic language to mark open Wi-Fi access points. He started a webblog to discuss the idea and proposed an initial set of symbols. The free wireless network community grabbed hold of the idea and hasn't let go. Warchalk marks are now showing up on buildings and sidewalks in cities, on college campuses, even in suburban neighborhoods. Like "All your base are belong to us," it's showing up everywhere, online, in cartoons, on T-shirts, on the evening news, etc. It's even given rise to spoofs: chalkchalking, whorechalking, pubchalking and spin-offs: blogchalking. It's definitely the geek meme du jour. Warchalking/driving has given rise to the term WI-BOS (or WiBos) for "Wireless Hobos"), those who engage in the practice of "chalking" and hunting down chalked access points. On the initial website (www.warchalking.org), there's even a little wallet card you can print out with the symbols on it and a place to mark down your local access nodes. The fellow who dreamt up the concept has coined the term MEMENUKED to label what has happened to him in the wake of the warchalk idea. He's been inundated with email, media requests, and the like. Memenuked is what happens to you when you unleash an idea that is so memetically viral that the response becomes overwhelming. Don't know if the term will catch on or not, but it's now riding the "carrier wave" of the warchalking phenom. WARPLUGGING was coined by a wardriving/chalking enthusiast to describe the act of using the 32-character network identifier (called an SSID) on a wireless network to advertise that network (or "plug" something else) to those who stumble upon it. Examples: "Gentle Dental Wireless," "Mars network, open for all," "please_bring_pizza." From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 16 17:51:01 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:51:01 -0400 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <459089.3235802951@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Peter McGraw's post reminded me of an amusing French transliteration of my home state's name as "mes sales chaussettes" (or "ma/ta/sa chaussette," if you prefer the inclusive approach). Thankfully, this was not offered as an etymological hypothesis. Joanne Despres From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 16 17:53:55 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:53:55 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D345C3A.3030600@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > tones (for possible hacker entry). Wardialing, in turn, gets its name > from the 1993 film "Wargames," which introduced the idea to legions of > would be hacker teens. 1983, that would be. I recently saw Wargames again, after about 18 years, and I was amazed how,even now the world situation has changed with the fall of the Soviet Union, my heart was still pounding, not so much from the movie, but from my recollection of the early 80s and the certainity that I then felt that the world was going to explode and wondering where I'd be when it happened (a theme explored in Coupland's "Life After God"). From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 16 17:56:10 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:56:10 -0500 Subject: NPR Speak and pronouns Message-ID: I had noticed this deletion of that/to many times before. I assumed it only bothered me (I have no one in my immediate circles who actually will discuss such things with me), and no one else. My assumption is that it somehow "sounds more formal", or to the speaker's mind, more "BBC-like" that way (though I do not know how a typical BBC broadcaster would say it). Since it works in some cases, and seems to sound more formal ("The professor agreed [implied COMMA here] the application of the proper phrasing was key in delineation of the underlying meaning"), I think people now tend to overuse it. Especially hyper-corrective copywriters for "respected broadcasters". Now, what bugs me much much more is the misuse of the subject-pronoun for the object-pronoun in "as for my husband and I, we do not allow our children to bike without helmets". That drives me crazy, and I swear I had never heard it (I grew up in Minnesota) until I was in college. Now, I hear it all the time, see it in popular print (in newspaper articles, Newsweek, everywhere!), and even come across it in advertising, educational seminar pamphlets, or sermons from highly educated clergy (constantly!). I always tell anyone who will put up with me pointing it out to say it with just one person or one pronoun, and see which sounds better. You wouldn't say "as for I", or "as for we", would you? So, don't do it when combining pronouns or names either! I am not generally a prescriptivist person, but I have to admit this one really bugs me. Mainly because I think it is hypercorrection from teachers screaming at us not to say "my brother and me" in the subject position, and no one knows the difference between subject and object, so they use it all the time. It's like the rule now is: When combining a noun and the first-person pronoun, always use "I", and never "me". So, I got that off my chest, and feel much better now. Glad I finally found this listserv. It is a great way to get my language-related "fixes" without bugging everyone in my real life. Glad to see some people I know on here too (though I don't know if they'll recognize me anymore...). millie-webb at charter.net From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 16 18:37:27 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:37:27 -0400 Subject: NPR Speak and pronouns In-Reply-To: <00b201c22cf2$1207bd00$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: At 12:56 PM -0500 7/16/02, Millie Webb wrote: >I had noticed this deletion of that/to many times before. I assumed it only >bothered me (I have no one in my immediate circles who actually will discuss >such things with me), and no one else. > >My assumption is that it somehow "sounds more formal", or to the speaker's >mind, more "BBC-like" that way (though I do not know how a typical BBC >broadcaster would say it). Since it works in some cases, and seems to sound >more formal ("The professor agreed [implied COMMA here] the application of >the proper phrasing was key in delineation of the underlying meaning"), I >think people now tend to overuse it. Especially hyper-corrective >copywriters for "respected broadcasters". > >Now, what bugs me much much more is the misuse of the subject-pronoun for >the object-pronoun in "as for my husband and I, we do not allow our children >to bike without helmets". That drives me crazy, and I swear I had never >heard it (I grew up in Minnesota) until I was in college. Now, I hear it >all the time, see it in popular print (in newspaper articles, Newsweek, >everywhere!), and even come across it in advertising, educational seminar >pamphlets, or sermons from highly educated clergy (constantly!). > >I always tell anyone who will put up with me pointing it out to say it with >just one person or one pronoun, and see which sounds better. You wouldn't >say "as for I", or "as for we", would you? So, don't do it when combining >pronouns or names either! I am not generally a prescriptivist person, but I >have to admit this one really bugs me. The only problem with this logic is the tacit assumption that conjoined noun phrases (X and Y) are syntactically identical to simple noun phrases (X) when it comes to case assignment. There's a lot of evidence that this is not the case, not only from "as for..." and "between you and I" (vs. *between we, which I'd wager is never used), but from a wide range of other prepositional and non-prepositional constructions. The same point can be raised about the difference between "Me and him can do it" vs. "Me can do it", "Him can do it", as in the example you bring up below. Again, the above "logic" would predict these are equally likely--and there's no hypercorrection here, simply (once again) different rules for case assignment in conjoined vs. simple NPs. By coincidence, this issue is one that's addressed in the Guardian review of the Huddleston-Pullum Cambridge Grammar that was mentioned earlier today here, at http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html >Mainly because I think it is >hypercorrection from teachers screaming at us not to say "my brother and me" >in the subject position, and no one knows the difference between subject and >object, so they use it all the time. It's like the rule now is: When >combining a noun and the first-person pronoun, always use "I", and never >"me". Well, the problem (if it is a problem) is that that's not the one speakers/writers actually follow either, at least not consistently in practice. Many will distinguish "He saw John and me" from "He gave it to John and I", and the rules are likely to be variable rather than absolute in nature. It's always easy to stipulate what everyone "should" do, but it's sometimes more interesting to investigate what they actually do. I take it that's what Huddleston and Pullum sought to accomplish in their grammar. Larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Jul 16 18:51:35 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:51:35 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: War-dialing is defined, relative to concerns with security, at the following site: http://www.robertgraham.com/pubs/hacking-dict.html#xWx The movie War Games is also mentioned. My favorite 'war' term, warbot (the software version), is not mentioned at the site. George Cole Shippensburg University From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM Tue Jul 16 19:36:39 2002 From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:36:39 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. Message-ID: Script kiddies who aren't old enough to drive have to resort to "warwalking": "So, from wardialling, we have wardriving and warwalking, where wireless laptop-equipped crackers wander the city looking for open corporate networks." --The Guardian, July 4, 2002 Paul http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/warchalking.asp http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/wardialing.asp http://www.logophilia.com/wordspy/wardriving.asp From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 16 20:00:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:00:29 -0400 Subject: King Freezies; Trendwear; Slow Food Message-ID: Ah great, I got to walk around Frankfurt to see the just-closed Jewish Museum and the just-closed Library. KING FREEZIES--Burger King offers these in Germany. In my day, we called them 7-11 Slurpees...Of the other chains, the Starbucks in Vienna made no menu modifications for Vienna. The Haagen Dazs also was the same store as in the States. Pizza Hut and McDonald's I already posted. TRENDWEAR, JEANSWEAR--Seen on a store here in Frankfurt. I don't know if I discussed "trendwear" before. SLOW FOOD--I just went to McFedries's site and I see that "Slow Food" was the word-of-the-day yesterday. I posted "slow food" a few months ago. Today's WOTD credits a subscriber, but "slow food" is credited to no one. From john at FENIKS.COM Tue Jul 16 20:29:21 2002 From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:29:21 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:05 AM 7/16/02 -0500, you wrote: >"Combat-ants" and "Fur-below" are some others often mentioned. Jack and the Beans Talk? Cheers! John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications 795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104 V: 603 668 5601 F: 707 220 7490 Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter http://www.feniks.com/ mailto:john at feniks.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 16 20:57:14 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:57:14 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020716162844.022acda0@mail.feniks.com> Message-ID: Wee knights? A. Murie From john at FENIKS.COM Tue Jul 16 21:20:06 2002 From: john at FENIKS.COM (John Blower) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:20:06 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 04:57 PM 7/16/02 -0400, you wrote: > Wee knights? >A. Murie Men swear... Cheers! John Blower/FeNiKs Business Communications 795 Mammoth Rd, #23, Manchester, NH 03104 V: 603 668 5601 F: 707 220 7490 Trainer at Large/Ace Copywriter http://www.feniks.com/ mailto:john at feniks.com From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 21:26:15 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:26:15 -0700 Subject: What did Delaware? (was: Re: Nonevent) In-Reply-To: <459089.3235802951@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:09 AM -0700 "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: > And there are probably others. I subsequently remembered another verse (or two verses?) from the Perry Como version which I feel compelled to add in the interest of Completeness (and probably nobody else): What did Missi-sip, boy, What did Missi-sip? (Repeat) She sipped a Minnesota, (Repeat 2x) That's what she did sip. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Jul 16 21:55:11 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:55:11 -0400 Subject: press inquiry Message-ID: Dear ADS Listserv, Apologies for intruding on the list. I'm a reporter and am working on a "one year later" column about the new words generated by the events of 9/11 and the ensuing "war on terrorism." I'd like to interview anyone who has spotted new (or "repurposed") words resulting from these events. I'm particularly interested in words that are getting used in the workplace, by professionals, business travellers, etc. For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. The column will appear (in slightly different forms) in the October issues of The American Lawyer and in Corporate Counsel. Thanks very much for any leads or suggestions. Catherine Aman Staff reporter Corporate Counsel & American Lawyer Magazine (212) 313-9205 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 16 23:27:28 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:27:28 -0400 Subject: Nonevent In-Reply-To: <20020716155645.GA26976@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: #In discussions of the urban legend that the Chevy Nova was a #failure in Spanish-speaking countries because its name reads #as "no va" i.e. "no go", it is sometimes brought up that no #English speakers seem to mind going to their THE RAPIST. # I've seen that used. IIRC, it was in, hmm, feminist-based anti-psychiatric ranting. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 16 23:30:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:30:47 -0400 Subject: Warchalking, WiBos, Warplugging, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D345C3A.3030600@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: #WARPLUGGING was coined by a wardriving/chalking enthusiast to #describe the act of using the 32-character network identifier (called an #SSID) on a wireless network to advertise that network (or "plug" #something else) to those who stumble upon it. Examples: "Gentle Dental #Wireless," "Mars network, open for all," "please_bring_pizza." Crossing threads here, despite the context I first divided that in this message as "warp+lugging". It must be my Star Trek youth... -- Mark M. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 16 23:32:24 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:32:24 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <68.2303b147.2a65791b@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:26 AM +0000 "James A. Landau" wrote: > Microsoft Word grammar checker...passes > 1. Ask the judge to disallow something. > 2. Ask the judge disallow something. > 3. Ask that the judge disallow something. > > and correctly objects to > 4. Ask that the judge disallows something. I seem to recall hearing that #4 is acceptable in British English. If so, is #3 NOT acceptable, or are both o.k.? Anyone over there care to comment? Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU Tue Jul 16 23:52:09 2002 From: r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:52:09 +1000 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Message-ID: Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a reference at http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: r.sussex at mailbox.uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ ********************************************************** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 16 23:59:34 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:59:34 -0400 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Message-ID: A "pigskin" is an American football, while a "sheepskin" is a diploma, traditionally made from parchment (though modern diplomas generally are made of paper). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a reference at http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html Roly Sussex From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 17 00:48:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:48:46 -0400 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A "pigskin" is an American football, while a "sheepskin" is >a diploma, traditionally made from parchment (though modern diplomas >generally are made of paper). > >John Baker > Or then again a pigs' kin could be a wild boar and a sheep's kin a goat... >-----Original Message----- >From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU] >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:52 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic > > >Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" >("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? >Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a >reference at >http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___Awards/honors___awards.html > >Roly Sussex From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Jul 17 01:01:32 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:01:32 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:21:04 -0500 Rick Kennerly > I admit that it's odd. But it's also spoken. My sense of Bob > Edward's style has always been that while he works from written text > or notes he tends to freelance Sometimes. What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. D From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 17 01:33:43 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:33:43 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <20020716.210933.-326037.10.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Duane Campbell writes: .......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. > >I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. > >D ~~~~~~~ Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being done. A. Murie From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 01:37:31 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:37:31 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: From: Suzanne Branciforte Ciao a tutti! As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De Salvo eds.). Saluti, Suzanne Branciforte ----- End forwarded message ----- Steve Boatti From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 17 01:58:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:58:22 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: <8a.1b5ee7ca.2a66245b@aol.com> Message-ID: Well, now we're getting some conflicting information (the idea that Middletown doesn't call its pizzas "apizza" because it was settled by Sicilians, unlike the Neapolitans, or rather the provinicial Campanians, who settled New Haven and imported their "apizza" spelling and pronunciation, vs. the claim below that Sicilians would do it too.). But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find puzzling. larry >Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: > >From: Suzanne Branciforte > > >Ciao a tutti! > >As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also > >Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che > >bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The > >heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, > >broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. > > >I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna > >Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of > >Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De > >Salvo eds.). > > >Saluti, > >Suzanne Branciforte > > > >----- End forwarded message ----- > >Steve Boatti From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 02:23:10 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:23:10 EDT Subject: apizza; pie Message-ID: In a message dated 7/16/02 9:57:12 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find puzzling. >> Obviously there was something unique about the Campanians who settled in New Haven. What it was, I haven't the foggiest. Steve Boatti From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 16 16:30:02 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:30:02 -0500 Subject: pigskin, sheepskin and academic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 7/16/02 6:52 PM, Prof. R. Sussex at r.sussex at MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU wrote: > Can someone please explain the use of "pigskin" and "sheepskin" > ("cow's skin"?) in relation to scholarships and academia in the US? > Does "pigskin" refer to students on sports scholarships? There is a > reference at > http://www.missouri.edu/~hdfswww/Graduate_Program/Graduate_Handbook/Honors___A > wards/honors___awards.html > The explanation of "pigskin" in this scholarship is explained in the web page: "Pigskin Preschool," which was initiated in 1975 by the HDFS staff and students who volunteer their time to provide care for children whose parents attend MU football games. The fund began in connection with the babysitting program offered by the people in the Division of Human Environmental Sciences, specifically the Department of Child Development, but it is now just a term they use as a sort of in-joke. Footballs are ostensibly made from pigskin, or were at some time in the past. Here's an interesting application of "slam jam" and "pigskin" in teaching geography to kids who would rather be shooting baskets or throwing footballs. http://www.pigskingeography.com/ I didn't see any references to sheepskin in the University of Missouri list -- the university where I taught for a quarter of a century. We use the term "sheepskin" to refer to a diploma awarded at graduation from any level of education. Mine have all been on paper, but apparently one college has been acquiring actual sheep skin for theirs. See this debate: http://halogen.note.amherst.edu/~astudent/2000-2001/issue14/news/01.html And here's another interesting site that came when I googled for "sheepskin diploma." http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/magicmill/oddsandends.html We use 'hide' with cow and buffalo, but 'skin' with deer, sheep, goat. I suppose the thickness and suppleness of the tanned product plays a role in determining whether it's skin or hide. A rawhide whip is a likely cultural object, but never a rawskin whip. The term 'rawhide' never fails to conjure up images from horse operas, particularly the TV show by that name. DMLance From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 17 10:05:25 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 06:05:25 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <20020716.210933.-326037.10.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: |o| Sometimes. What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many |o| dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has |o| actually done the |o| two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his |o| questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. |o| |o| I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. |o| Dunno, Ophra does the same thing, I read. Sometimes she has 5 or 6 interviews going on at the same time. I'm sure most "name" interviewers do it, too. For NPR, the idea is that it provides continuity of voice in the program and the technique certainly makes for a better interview. For instance, several years back a coworker at our university was interviewed at some length by NPR about a cancer awareness event that she had organized, frankly I forget what the "twist" was that made the event unique & radio worthy. She was disappointed by per performance during what turned out to be a very long interview, about 45 minutes. The NPR reporter lead Louise all around the topic chatting about all kinds of things while dipping in and out of the main theme. And Louise didn't have much hope for the final result but was pleasantly surprised by the aired product. The 20-second Weekend Edition piece that finally aired with Scott Simon's voice asking the questions was coherent, up-beat, backtrack & stammer free, had a pleasantly loose style that sounded conversational, and portrayed Louise and her cause in a favorable light. The process is really no different than trusting a pen & ink reporter to treat you fairly after a long rambling interview, I suppose. I imagine that when one sees Howard Fineman with Someone You've Never Heard of as the byline in Newsweek, the same thing has happened. If you listen at the end of the show, the reporter who did the interview is identified and recognized for her work on the interview. rhk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 17 11:34:27 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:34:27 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob Edwards may seem dubbed to some of you, but since he is from exactly the same dialect area as me, I've just always assumed that he is a speaker of perfectly standard American English, and, of course, he sounds quite normal to me. dInIs > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D >~~~~~~~ >Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it >could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being >done. >A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 17 11:39:32 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:39:32 -0400 Subject: apizza; pie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But when is an article an article, and when has it lost that status (due to phonological processes and attrition of language skills among immigrant users)? When we got rid of the 'n' in "nuncle" and "nadder" in English, I'm fairly certain it was not the result of an enclave of pop grammarians deliberating on the "article" status of the noises involved. dInIs >Well, now we're getting some conflicting information (the idea that >Middletown doesn't call its pizzas "apizza" because it was settled by >Sicilians, unlike the Neapolitans, or rather the provinicial >Campanians, who settled New Haven and imported their "apizza" >spelling and pronunciation, vs. the claim below that Sicilians would >do it too.). But the real question I'd have, following Doug Wilson, >is whether it really makes sense to HAVE a definite article in the >name of pizza shops, as in "Pepe's Apizza", "Sally's Apizza", "Olde >World Apizza", and so on. What you get elsewhere is not "X's La >Pizza" but "X's Pizza", with no article at all. Similarly in French >you'd get "Jeanne's Crepes", not "Jeanne's les Crepes". So it's not >the FORM but the PRESENCE of the article that I (and Doug) find >puzzling. > >larry > >>Further thoughts from the It-American Historical Assoc. listserv: >> >>From: Suzanne Branciforte >> >> >>Ciao a tutti! >> >>As for 'a-beetz': most southern dialects (not just Neapolitan, but also >> >>Sicilian) drop the L in the article LA (or the U in UNA, like in Che >> >>bella cosa, 'na iurnata sole) and then truncate final vowels. The >> >>heavier labial consonants make the P sound like B, a-beetz for la pizza, >> >>broshjut for prosciutto, and so on. >> >> >>I couldn't resist getting into this discussion; my piece "The Day Anna >> >>Stopped Making a-Beetz" is coming out in the volume *The Milk of >> >>Almonds* (New York: Feminist Press, 2002, Edvige Giunta and Louise De >> >>Salvo eds.). >> >> >>Saluti, >> >>Suzanne Branciforte >> >> >> >>----- End forwarded message ----- >> >>Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Wed Jul 17 12:59:00 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:59:00 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has happened to me (the dubbing). At first it was disconcerting to hear but then it seemed quite funny. Especially after my aunt asked me what Bob Edwards was really like and I said "A disembodied voice." And I liked the producer too. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D >~~~~~~~ >Well, yes, but what is your evidence for this practice? I can see that it >could be done, but it has never occurred to me that that is what is being >done. >A. Murie From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 17 13:51:53 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:51:53 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over in silence.) The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light on journalistic practices. Joanne Despres From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 17 14:15:46 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:15:46 -0400 Subject: FW: NPRSpeak Message-ID: Joanne Despres said: >> I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over in silence.) The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light on journalistic practices. << The practices of some, but not all journalists. It seems to me totally inappropriate to "quote" someone that has not been directly been contacted by somebody involved with the publication, article, or (in the case of broadcast media) program. What should have been done, at least, is to ask your permission to use something you posted, and whether it would be OK to use your name in connection with it. Not that you "own" what is posted to a listserv, but it is simply discourteous if not unethical to do what Joanne describes. It's often nice to be mentioned in the press as an authority or source, but not at all right to not know it has happened. Frank Abate From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Jul 17 14:27:30 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:27:30 -0400 Subject: Articles Message-ID: The August 2002 issue of Scientific American has two language centered articles. The first, at page 26 discusses research in how the language we learn "warps everything we hear later". The second, at page 78, is entitled "Saving Languages". Bob From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 17:22:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:22:56 -0400 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine Message-ID: Ukraine girls really knock me out. --The Beatles, "Back in the U.S.S.R." Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow traveler complained that they all dress like whores. My tour guide is a 20-year old college student (mathematics). I asked about slang, and, as I sometimes get as a response, there is "no slang" in the Ukraine. For example, outside this hotel is the bear with the Olympic belt (a symbol of the 1980 Olympics). I asked if the bear had a name. "Bear," he said. There are no English-language cookbooks for sale here at the hotel, and there's a limited amount of English language reading material of any kind. For the record, I plugged in these words into the online OED, and there isn't much: UKRAINE 22 hits UKRAINIAN 31 hits From WHAT'S ON (www.whatson.com), 18 July 2002, pg. 36, col. 1: _Ukraine's "Village Fete"_ People in Kyiv, both expats and locals alike, are fond of saying that Ukraine is really one big village, where everyone knows each other and where you can expect to bump into acquaintances all over the place. If this is true, then surely the village fete of this "silo" nation is the Tavria Games, the outdoor summer festival which continues to attract huge numbers of young Ukrainians to a small town on the SOuth Ukrainian steppe. (Silo nation?--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 17 18:29:39 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine Message-ID: I was in Vilnius a couple weeks ago, and I heard Lithuanian women at the conference complaining that their local fashion choices seemed to be to dress like Soviet-era grandmothers or like whores. A Finnish university rector at the conference brought his 20-ish daughter along, and she agreed with other women at the conference that young women's fashions in Vilnius were pretty awful. I'd have to say the fashions did seem a little extreme. I wonder if this is a stage in the de-Sovietization of these nations. Herb Stahlke > Ukraine girls really knock me out. > --The Beatles, "Back in the U.S.S.R." > > Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow traveler complained that they all dress like whores From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 17 18:36:11 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:36:11 -0700 Subject: No slang in the Ukraine In-Reply-To: <30DAC206.56C56A78.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Presumably as in "grain storehouse." --On Wednesday, July 17, 2002 1:22 PM -0400 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (Silo nation?--ed.) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 17 18:43:45 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:43:45 -0500 Subject: Yahoo creates medireview and reviewuate Message-ID: Interesting essay on how Yahoo's email screening creates new words like medireview and reviewuate. http://www.msnbc.com/news/781684.asp Herb Stahlke From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 17 19:06:32 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:06:32 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak Message-ID: I've heard that dubbed interviews are very common on music radio, especially with musicians and rock groups who are touring. The group's publicist sends a pre-recorded interview tape to the various radio stations across the country along with a list of the appropriate questions. The DJ then does the interview "on the air", asking the questions during long pauses left on the pre-recorded track - the effect being that the individual radio personalities seem to be conducting a live interview with said rock group. As for pen and ink journalists and the liberties they take ... I've been "doing journalism" for the last couple years and have often been struck by how easy it would be to cast the interview subject in a terrible light - or bathe him in an angelic glow, depending upon one's desire. Obviously, any good journalist will do his or her best to present the subject as honestly as possible during the editing process. But there have been a couple occasions where I've been shocked to hear my editor make a remark like "boy, he seems like a jerk" after reading an interview feature I've written - having been there and having heard the person's tone and taken in their demeanor, it never occurred to me that in stark black and white they might seem very different. Editing interviews is a tricky little process. Brooke Pierce www.theatermania.com > Duane Campbell writes: >.......> What I find interesting about Morning Edition are the many >>dubbed interviews. It is obvious that some producer has actually done the >>two-way. Then Edwards is handed a script of the questions, and his >>questions are dubbed into the interview by very expert digital editors. >> >>I dunno, but personally I find this a bit dishonest. >> >>D From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 17 20:22:08 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:22:08 -0400 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: At 11:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, Millie Webb wrote: >As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the >way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, >hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the >'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- >even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say >"hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the >people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. >Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and >take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to >or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed >and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota >pretty easily. As a Minnesotan who just got back from a few days with the family, I can attest (with earlier writers) that the /a~O/ distinction is just about gone in younger Minnesotans. One 40-something niece still has it, but her sister doesn't, and none of their kids have the split. Mpls/St. Paul is most advanced in the merger; after 50 years in the Cities even my 70-year-old brother has it before /t/ (predictably triggering merger first, if I recall J.C. Wells' order correctly), while my sister and I don't. I have no distinction between 'palm tree' and 'pom' though--no /l/ or lengthening in the first; however, the 'palm of my hand' has a backer vowel--not quite to 'thought' but more like British 'lot' (to cite Wells' sets again). By "hahcky" I assume you're referring to the front vowel raising common in the Northern Cities Shift. But why is it "annoying"? BTW, I don't see the name of the city spelled "Saint" Paul very often. In St. Louis, the full spelling was reserved for Saint Louis University (as if commemorating the French king/saint, although I don't know if that was the original intent of the name in 1819; SLU's symbol is the fleur-de-lis, plus that crazy Billiken). Isn't this distinction generally kept in St. Paul too? From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 17 20:27:04 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:27:04 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <157.10e90f3f.2a65718a@aol.com> Message-ID: At 08:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/15/02 11:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET writes: > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British 'lot'). From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 17 08:47:41 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 03:47:41 -0500 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <3D353E39.25107.9EE1CC9@localhost> Message-ID: on 7/17/02 8:51 AM, Joanne M. Despres at jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM wrote: > I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's > statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and > re-contextualizing of original statements. One Monday morning I > was very surprised to learn from a colleague that I'd been quoted in > William Safire's column the previous day. Turned out he'd quoted > from a post I wrote to this list! The way the column read, though, > it sounded for all the world as though he'd talked to me. Not only > that, but he went on, after quoting the fact reported in the posting, > to make exactly the opposite argument to the one that I was trying > to prove with that fact. (The gist of my argument was passed over > in silence.) > > The issue in question wasn't all that important, and I didn't mind > being quoted, but the experience shed some very interesting light > on journalistic practices. > > Joanne Despres > Try residing in a town that is overrun with journalism students who put out a daily local paper. If the student doesn't get it wrong, the graduate student copy editor does. DML From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 21:02:00 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:02:00 EDT Subject: Greenspan Coins a New Phrase [headline] Message-ID: >From the July 17 New York Times on the Web . . . By FLOYD NORRIS [I] nfectious greed." The man who gave us "irrational exuberance" is back, with a phrase that sums up the late 1990's even better than that one did. "An infectious greed seemed to grip much of our business community," the Federal Reserve chairman, Alan Greenspan, told the Senate Banking Committee yesterday. The way he sees it, the incentives created by poorly designed stock options "overcame the good judgment of too many corporate managers." . . . . - Allan Metcalf From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 17 21:27:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:27:34 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food Message-ID: OK SIGN--Seen three times so far, on billboards and ads. Obviously, it's not an insult to use it here in the Ukraine. SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. B-TO-B--From USA TODAY, 16 July 2001, pg. 11A, col. 3: THousands of travelers like Bopp normally slip through the cracks every day using a creative booking practice called "back-to-back" ticketing, also known as "b-to-b." (Any confusion with B2B?--ed.) UKRAINE CUISINE--From WHAT'S ON, 12-18 July 2002, pg. 19: KOZAK MAMAI (...) The restaurant offers traditional Ukrainian cuisine, and there is a touch of authenticity in those waiters sneaking around in "sharovary" (baggy Cossack trousers), albeit without "oseledtsi" (the instantly recognisable Cossack hairstyle). House specials change every week, so regulars are never bored. Still, the most popular dish remains borsch with "pampushky" (savoury buns). The favoured dessert remains ice-cream in a basket of baked dough, decorated with fruit, and the best loved drinks on the terrace are "kysil" and "uzvar" (traditional Ukrainian fruit drinks). From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 17 21:48:32 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:48:32 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this web page: http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Jul 17 22:12:26 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:12:26 -0400 Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: Webster's Collegiate (9/e) doesn't include sprezzatura. It does, however, include the lovely word sprachgefuhl, which it defines as a "sensibility to conformity with (or divergence from) the established usage of a language (or) a feeling for which is linguistically effective or appropriate." It seems to me that you all possess a great deal of sprachgefuhl-many thanks for your thoughtful replies to my inquiry yesterday (re: new words and usages arising in the wake of Sept 11). Much appreciated! Catherine Aman Staff reporter Corporate Counsel & American Lawyer Magazine (212) 313-9205 > ---------- > From: Baker, John > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:48 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Sprezzatura > > The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied > carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I > found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. > The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this > web page: > > http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Sprezzatura; B-to-B; OK Sign; Ukraine food > > SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: > While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon > a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if > he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I > looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I > went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. > You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High > Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful > performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to > describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society > on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. > > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Wed Jul 17 23:57:04 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:57:04 -0500 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: I cannot say I have NEVER noticed the hock/hawk thing sounding the same for some people, but I maintain that most of my family (I have seven siblings, ages 31 to 48, all married [some to non-Minnesotans], and four of them still living in the Cities, one in Rural MN), all of whom still distinguish the two sounds about ninety percent of the time ("misspeaks happen" obviously). Both of my parents use them both too, with my mom born and raised in St Paul, leaving for about ten years (Chicago and south-central Michigan), and returning for the next forty years. My dad has lived in the Cities for those last forty years. But he isn't a great example, I presume -- the "poor man" still says "Ay-talian" for "Italian" because his dad from South Carolina always said it that way. He was born and raised in Battle Creek, Michigan, btw. His language is all mixed up in many ways one would never expect from someone who hardly ever moved his whole life. "but Inyway"... . I find the Chicago lengthening and nasalization of the [a] in "hockey" annoying for a variety of personal reasons -- not the least if which is that my first roommate in Michigan spoke very very loudly, with a lot of nasalization, and did that with every vowel possible. She was very annoying most of the time. Thus, the association for me, I suppose. Yes, St Paul is usually written with just the St and not "Saint". But mostly (IMHO) because it is quicker, I think. I have never seen or heard anything about it being only acceptable one way or the other. I went to Macalester College in St Paul, and they almost always wrote out "Saint" in every return/contact address I ever saw when I was around there (though they may not anymore). The newspapers generally write "St." or "St", but again, I think it is because it is shorter. I usually write it out when typing, because too many spelling programs get tripped up on "St" with no period, which is how I am used to seeing it written in many cases locally (in the Cities). Laurence, thanks for comments on the subject/object pronoun thing. I knew I did not like my rule much for some reason, but I did not have the time right then to think of better phrasing. I do still think it is hypercorrection, by the way. Which would usually mean it is inconsistent, wouldn't it? Do you know John Lawler in Ann Arbor? Your posting style reminds me of his "so many years ago...". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:22 PM Subject: Re: hock/hawk (again) > At 11:54 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, Millie Webb wrote: > > >As for the hock/hawk thing, I was born and raised in Saint Paul , all the > >way through college. I have always distinguished between Don/Dawn, > >hock/hawk and palm/pom pairs. I cannot claim I precisely "pronounce" the > >'l' in "palm", but the vowel is definitely longer, and the 'l' creeps in -- > >even on a spectrogram (I have checked). I find it annoying when people say > >"hockey" like it's spelled "hahcky" though too. In my experience, the > >people from Chicaahhhgo are the ones who do that, and pronounce don=dawn. > >Then again, I have always been interested in language (since childhood), and > >take on the accents of the people around me very easily, whether I mean to > >or not (trust me, it happens to me all the time). If I am extremely relaxed > >and talking fast, I am told you can still hear that I am from Minnesota > >pretty easily. > > As a Minnesotan who just got back from a few days with the family, I can > attest (with earlier writers) that the /a~O/ distinction is just about gone > in younger Minnesotans. One 40-something niece still has it, but her > sister doesn't, and none of their kids have the split. Mpls/St. Paul is > most advanced in the merger; after 50 years in the Cities even my > 70-year-old brother has it before /t/ (predictably triggering merger first, > if I recall J.C. Wells' order correctly), while my sister and I don't. I > have no distinction between 'palm tree' and 'pom' though--no /l/ or > lengthening in the first; however, the 'palm of my hand' has a backer > vowel--not quite to 'thought' but more like British 'lot' (to cite Wells' > sets again). > > By "hahcky" I assume you're referring to the front vowel raising common in > the Northern Cities Shift. But why is it "annoying"? > > BTW, I don't see the name of the city spelled "Saint" Paul very often. In > St. Louis, the full spelling was reserved for Saint Louis University (as if > commemorating the French king/saint, although I don't know if that was the > original intent of the name in 1819; SLU's symbol is the fleur-de-lis, plus > that crazy Billiken). Isn't this distinction generally kept in St. Paul too? From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 02:03:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:03:51 EDT Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/2002 5:26:11 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << SPREZZATURA--From USA TODAY international, 17 July 2002, pg. 7B, col. 3: While reading _The New York TImes_ a couple of Sundays ago, I came upon a word I'd never seen before. Sprezzatura. I asked my partner, Jack, if he knew what it meant. He didn't, and he reads books with hard covers. I looked in the dictionary. (THE dictionary?--ed.) It wasn't there, so I went online, typed in the word, hit "search" and up it popped. You probably already know this, but it's from the Italian High Renaissance and describes the attributes of a man who is both a graceful performer and a superficial manipulator. Because the word was used to describe two young men clawing their way up the ladder of New York society on the arm of Martha Stweart, it was the perfect fit. >> Not quite right. See below. In a message dated 7/17/2002 5:45:34 PM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: << The OED defines "sprezzatura" as ease of manner, studied carelessness; the appearance of acting or being done without effort. I found this reassuring, because that was what I thought the word meant. The USA TODAY interpretation is evidently based on a misreading of this web page: http://wso.williams.edu/~espence/sprezzatura1.html John Baker >> Yes indeed. I was familiar with this word because I read portions of an English translation of Castiglione's book, THE COURTIER, which was written in Italy (in Italian) in the "High Renaissance." I believe the book was very popular in England, where the idea of sprezzatura became a goal for all gentlemen to emulate. The idea was that a true gentleman not only did everything well, but he made every victory look effortless. The goal was not to be a "superficial manipulator" but a totally graceful person who was very aware of his image among others. In a way, sprezzatura was a kind of duty that the upper classes owed to the lower classes in order to promote social order. Indeed, the burden fell most heavily upon the prince. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 02:44:51 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:44:51 -0400 Subject: press inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Catherine Aman wrote: > For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. This is the second time in the past few days that I have seen "to wand" referred to as a neologism. It isn't -- I know I have heard it used for years to describe scanning a barcode with a barcode reader. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Jul 18 03:59:15 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:59:15 -0700 Subject: press inquiry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > For instance, the neo-verb "to wand" will be included in the piece. > > This is the second time in the past few days that I have seen > "to wand" > referred to as a neologism. It isn't -- I know I have heard > it used for > years to describe scanning a barcode with a barcode reader. I assume that in the 9/11 context, "to wand" refers to metal detection devices at airport security checkpoints not barcode readers. It's not quite the same sense. Although, a Google groups search turns up several instances of "to wand" in the airport context dating back to at least 1992. So it's still not a post-9/11 neologism in any case. ("At one airport they wanted me to take off my belt and walk through the gizmo. I told 'em it would be easier for me to take off my pants. They decided to wand me down by hand!"; Subject: "Re: This is the stupidest ? but I had to ask it ...", posted to rec.arts.bodyart - 08 Feb 1992 by Nicholas J. Simicich.) There are lots of interesting posts on things that set of metal detectors on rec.arts.bodyart. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jul 18 04:13:12 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:13:12 -0400 Subject: Uptalking in Steinbeck Message-ID: This article which I believed was mentioned on this list in September ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,555379,00.html ) makes what I consider a credible effort (for a non-specialist journalist) to find the beginning of the rise of uptalking, or "high-rise terminals." The earliest citation in the article is 1965: "What's called 'high-rising intonation in statements', an increasingly common feature of Australian English, was first noticed as an aberration in an interview situation in 1965." Now, I'm sure there's better work out there on the subject and history of uptalk, but I think it's worth pointing out that in "The Winter of Our Discontent," John Steinbeck describes what is unmistakably uptalk in the first chapter, page seven of my Penguin version. The book was first published in 1961. "Joey looked like a horse and he smiled like a horse, raising a long upper lip to show big square teeth. Joseph Patrick Morphy, Joey Morphy, Joey-boy--"the Morph"--a real popular guy for one only a few years at New Baytown. A joker who got off his gags veily-eyed like a poker player, but he whinnied at other people's jokes, whether or not he had heard them. A wise guy, the Morph, had the inside dope on everything--and everybody from Mafia to Mountbatten--but he gave it out with a rising inflection, almost like a question. That took the smart-aleck tone out of it, made his listener a party to it so that he could repeat it as his own." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Jul 18 04:24:21 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:24:21 -0700 Subject: apizza Message-ID: My limited understanding of Italian grammar is that, unlike Spanish or English, the genitive pronoun can occur between the article and the noun, whence the famous aria in Don Giovanni, "Il mio tesoro". Hence, we would have "a mia pizza" for regional varieties in which "la" > "a", so the article would not be contiguous to the noun. Rudy From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 18 07:16:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:16:47 -0700 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: <3D353E39.25107.9EE1CC9@localhost> Message-ID: >I (and I'm sure others on this list) can vouch for Rick Kennerly's >statement that pen-and-ink writers do quite a lot of reshaping and >re-contextualizing of original statements. Absolutely! I've been interviewed a couple of times and never had a clue about what would actually appear in the paper when the article came out. Fortunately, I was pleased that they didn't make me sound like a rambling idiot. Rima From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Jul 18 13:06:56 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:06:56 -0400 Subject: press inquiry Message-ID: And there is wanded, as in "info wanded on statistical packages". That spelling of 'wanted' can be found in Google advanced, with a 1985 date. I don't know if wanded is merely a misspelling or jargon. George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 13:46:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > > > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. > > > Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like > either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British 'lot') I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and "caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for me, at least). color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables of "tolerance" caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to influence the 11th Collegiate. Now as for "hoarse"---MWCD10 provides me with a surprise. I always thought it was strictly a homophone for "horse", but the M-W people give a second pronunciation of /hawrse/, that is, the vowel is the /aw/ of "law". I've never heard that one, but I'll concede it may be widespread somewhere. (A friend in high school claimed that he and his mother went to the doctor. Her throat was red, but he had a hoarse of a different color. If 'hoarse" were not a homophone of "horse", that pun would not have worked.) Now for a surprise. I was going to say the second pronunciation of "hoarse" had the same vowel sound as "harsh", but luckily I looked up "harsh" in the 10th and discovered only one pronunciation listed: /hahrsh/ with the vowel being the /ah/ of "father". That's a new one on me, since I pronounce "harsh" with the /aw/ vowel of "arm". So I checked the 10th Collegiate's phonetic-symbol guide. There are two examples given for the phoneme specified for "harsh". One is "mop", which definitely has the /ah/ of "father". The other is "mar", which I always pronounce with the /aw/ of "arm" or "law". I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of "caught" and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most people's /ahr/ is converted to /awr/? Confused, Jim Landau From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 14:26:42 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:26:42 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: >In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > >> > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. >> > >> >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. >> >> >> Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like >> either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British >'lot') > >I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have >never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and >"caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for >me, at least). > >color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" >collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables >of "tolerance" >caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" > >MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start >sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to >influence the 11th Collegiate. > I'm in the unusual and--as far as I know--not geographically restricted minority for whom "color" and "cull 'er" are the only minimal pair (or even near minimal pair) for the PUT and PUTT vowels before /l/; for me, HULL, CULL, PULL, and FULL all have the same vowel sound. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 14:50:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:50:15 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: Greetings from Kiev. Lenin must be working this internet connection. It's just that fast. MATRUSHKA--little eggs, finely decorated. Sold at every tourist shop here. Tons of Google hits, but I didn't see it in the revised OED. Is that correct? HRYVNA--the currency unit. Again, not in OED, although "dollar" and "pound" and "peso" are. LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if the bumps in the road have a slang name. RED UNIVERSITY--founded in 1834 and painted red. No connection with "red"="communist," although this has been in tourist books. At least I was told there's no connection. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jul 18 15:43:53 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:43:53 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: Jim Landau, Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT, writes: >I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of "caught" >and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most people's >/ahr/ is converted to /awr/? Not by me. I make these and all the distinctions you point out in this post in the same way. I was born & raised in Nebraska, of parents born & raised in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas & Nebraska. [You didn't mention "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] A. Murie From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 18 15:50:40 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:50:40 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Me too; I born & raised in Penna. My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced "world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was born and raised in Salem, Mass. Anyone ever come across a young person who speaks this way? > ---------- > From: sagehen > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:43 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > Jim Landau, Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:46:27 EDT, writes: > >I always distinguish the /ah/ of "cot" and "hock" from the /aw/ of > "caught" > >and "hawk", but do I have an unusual speech pattern in which most > people's > >/ahr/ is converted to /awr/? > > Not by me. I make these and all the distinctions you point out in this > post in the same way. I was born & raised in Nebraska, of parents born & > raised in Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas & Nebraska. [You didn't > mention > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] > A. Murie > > From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 18 16:23:16 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:23:16 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: pop or soda? > ---------- > From: James A. Landau > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:17 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: hawk/hock > > In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > > [You didn't mention > > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than > "arm."] > > > Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and > raised > in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and > Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). > > I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", > as > being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training > in > phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". > But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, > I > pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk > about > the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the > finish > on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of > "warm". > > Still confused, > > Jim Landau > > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:02:03 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" #collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables #of "tolerance" #caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" '/aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller"'? Different from '/ah/ as in father'? Is this the same vowel you use in "warm"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:03:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:03:22 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <23FE327B.4537DD80.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if #the bumps in the road have a slang name. We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 18 16:07:06 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:07:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Catherine Aman wrote: #My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten #many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced #"world" as "whirled" So do I; to me these are exact homophones. Likewise, I suspect, for the people whose cars carry the bumper sticker "Visualize whirled peas", a parody of "Visualize world peace". And AHD4 gives the prons whirl: hwu^rl, wu^rl (u-circumflex) world: wu^rld indicating homophony for wh/h-mergers, like me. How do you distinguish them? -- Mark A. Mandel From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:14:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:14:56 EDT Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > MATRUSHKA--little eggs, finely decorated. Sold at every tourist shop here. > Tons of Google hits, but I didn't see it in the revised OED. Is that correct? If I remember correctly, in Russian (but not necessarily in the Ukrainian of Kiev), a "matrushka" has nothing to do with eggs per se but instead is a nested set of painted dolls, which are egg-shaped so that each one (except the largest) will nest within the next-larger one. By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? Lwow is in the region known as "Galicia" (not to be confused with the province of the same name in Spain) which during the 20th Century belonged to Austria-Hungary then Poland then the Ukrainian SSR and finally to Ukraine (as best as I can tell, the Gentiles in Galicia all spoke Polish.) Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The region in Spain was, I am told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in Omnis Gallia), which is confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry to the "Celtiberians", the supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing (proto-Basque?) Iberians. Also, the region's name seems to be spelled "Galicia" but the local dialect is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the Gauls? And if so how did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic territory? - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:17:23 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:17:23 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > [You didn't mention > "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it > sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and raised in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", as being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training in phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, I pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk about the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the finish on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of "warm". Still confused, Jim Landau From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Jul 18 16:36:27 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: "clever" (= skillful, adroit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/3/02 18:42, "RonButters at AOL.COM" wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/02 3:57:15 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: > > << On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> There is a slang sense of CLEVER that means 'sexually attractive'. Or at >> least there used to be, in American gay lingo. >> >> Is that still current? > > I'm afraid it's generational or regional -- I've never heard it used that > way in a queer context. > > -- Steve Kl. >> > > To be more exact, as I recall, "clever" meant 'sexually attractive' only when > used of males and then only when combined with the words "number" or > "trick"--i.e., a "clever number" was a sexy guy. I can't say if it was > confined only to (parts of) the South, but my guess is that it is now archaic. I wonder if there's any connection with the phrase "Whatever's Clever" used in the sexual invitation ads in the back of alternative papers such as New York Press. http://www.tpigroup.com/nyvariations/WC0.html From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 16:37:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:37:56 EDT Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 12:21:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caman at AMLAW.COM writes: > pop or soda? Soda, thank you. Although I went to college at Michigan State, apparently a "pop" area (a New Yorker asked for "soda in cans" and was given baking soda), I associated mostly with out-of-state students and was never exposed to massive amounts of pop. For me, sodium carbonate is /warshing soda/. Do dyed-in-the-rayon pop speakers say "diet pop" or "diet soda"? Consider the following: "nitrate of soda" is sodium nitrate (Chile saltpeter, "Chili" saltpeter) "bicarbonate of soda" is sodium bicarbonate. Therefore, "chloride of soda" should be sodium choride (table salt), should it not? No, it's sodium hypochlorite (bleaching powder). - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:38:57 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:38:57 -0700 Subject: Cunning (Was: Re: hawk/hock) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think this use of "cunning" must have been fairly widespread in that generation. My paternal grandmother (born in California, spent her married life in Iowa) used it in this sense all the time. OTOH, I don't recall my maternal grandmother (born In Illinois but spent most of her life in Indian Territory, then Oklahoma) ever using it. --On Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:50 AM -0400 Catherine Aman wrote: > My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten > many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced > "world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, > used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was > born and raised in Salem, Mass. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:46:16 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:46:16 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:03 PM -0400 7/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >#LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if >#the bumps in the road have a slang name. > >We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. > No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) is blocked by homonymy... larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 16:51:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:51:48 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <2f.29f725b4.2a684380@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:14 PM -0400 7/18/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > > >By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? L'wiw is Ukrainian. Lwow is the Polish name. Lemberg is the German name. Same place. (See the cover story in last Sunday's Times Magazine for more on this. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 17:01:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:01:06 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:50 AM -0400 7/18/02, Catherine Aman wrote: >Me too; I born & raised in Penna. > >My grandmother had an accent that seems to be gone forever. I've forgotten >many of her distinctive phrasings, but do remember that she pronounced >"world" as "whirled" and "larch" (the tree) as "lahch" (and, strangely, used >the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was born and >raised in Salem, Mass. Anyone ever come across a young person who speaks >this way? > Anyone from Boston or Eastern New England or New York who speaks a non-rhotic dialect (in which /r/ is not pronounced as a consonant at the end of a word or before a consonant) will approximate the "lahch" pronunciation. The stereotype is "pahk yaw cah in Hahvahd Yahd". I'm not sure in what sense "world" would merge with "whirled" rather than vice versa: do you mean it begins with the hw- sound (voiceless w) that some speakers use in "whether" as opposed to "weather"? I pronounce "world" and "whirled" as homonyms, neither with hw-. As for "cunning", the American Heritage Dictionary has ADJECTIVE: 1. Marked by or given to artful subtlety and deceptiveness. 2. Executed with or exhibiting ingenuity. 3. Delicately pleasing; pretty or cute: a cunning pet. I assume sense 3 is indeed regionally restricted (maybe because I don't have it myself). If I had my copy of DARE on me, I could check to see if it's specifically found in Boston and Eastern Massachusetts, or perhaps more generally in that part of New England. (I haven't encountered it here in New Haven.) Larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Jul 18 17:19:21 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna Message-ID: Jim Landau wrote "Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The region in Spain was, I am told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in Omnis Gallia), which is confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry to the "Celtiberians", the supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing (proto-Basque?) Iberians. Also, the region's name seems to be spelled "Galicia" but the local dialect is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the Gauls? And if so how did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic territory?" Your assumption is wrong--the Gauls did not originate in the west and migrate east, but originated in the east. They first show up north of the alps and then come in contact with the Romans in the Po Valley. The Germanic and Slavic peoples are later arrivals in northern and southwestern Europe. The Gauls, like the rest of the Celts--and all other Indo-Europeans--originated in the east and spread westwards into Europe; their origin has been contested over the last century but the center of the competing hypotheses seems to be the area north of the Black Sea. The Celts first invade Italy around 400 BCE and battle the Romans at Clusium in 390 BCE, defeating the Roman army on the Allia, advance on Rome, burn it and besiege the Capitol in 387 BCE--this is how they enter history, coming over the alps in N. Italy. (Dates from Gerhard Herm, The Celts [1975]). Jim McKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology [1998]) says in part in his entry for Gaul "The culture and the language of the Celts extended across the Alps into Cisalpine Gaul ... what is today northern Italy down to the Apennines; at various times Celtic dialect was also spoken in much of northern Europe, from Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, much of the Balkans, to Galatia in what is today Turkey." The entry for Galatia says it is an "ancient district in central Anatolia ... settled in the 3rd century BC." _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 18 17:14:00 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:14:00 -0400 Subject: NPRSpeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Brooke Pierce wrote: > As for pen and ink journalists and the liberties they take ... I've been > "doing journalism" for the last couple years and have often been struck by how > easy it would be to cast the interview subject in a terrible light - or bathe > him in an angelic glow, depending upon one's desire. The editor wields amazing power. The Criterion Collection put out a 3-DVD set of Brazil. One of the DVDs plays the shortened (butchered, really) edited-for-TV version that has an audio overlay that describes scene by scene, and often beat by beat, the choice that was made by the editor for tv in order to basically turn the story around 180 degrees. The TV version was dubbed the "Love Conquers All" version (it has a happy ending) and it's extremely interesting to see how they re-arranged and sliced scenes in order to play up to the Love Conquers All motif. -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 18 17:20:58 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <23FE327B.4537DD80.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > HRYVNA--the currency unit. Again, not in OED, although "dollar" and > "pound" and "peso" are. Well, the currency is a post-USSR-breakup term, after all. FYI, regarding the spelling: Listed in the MRI Bankers' Guide to Foreign Currency and the CIA Factbook as "hryvnia", which would follow the standard Ukrainian Cyrillic to Roman transliteration. (The Ukrainan and Belarusian respellings of practically every city and town made for a lot of fun, let me tell you, in Referenceland. I actually bought a map of Ukraine written in Ukrainian as an aid.) -- Steve From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Jul 18 18:36:42 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:36:42 -0700 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, probably not in Ukrainian... --On Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:46 PM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) > is blocked by homonymy... **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:18:23 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:18:23 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna Message-ID: Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too annoying, but here goes just in case: In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't you wanna?" I wonder: how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" (just kidding)... -Mai From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:30:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:30:12 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >annoying, but here goes just in case: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >you wanna?" I wonder: > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >(just kidding)... > One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 20:43:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:43:08 -0400 Subject: Okroshka Message-ID: On to Baba Yar and then a night train to Odessa tomorrow. My tour guide said "lying policemen," then said, to avoid confusion, "laying policeman"...He wrote the currency name that way on my notes...Yes, I should have said that matrushkas are egg-shaped dolls. They are not eggs. Many have American designs, such as George Bush, Bill Clinton, and even former NBA player Dennis Rodman. I can't read the WHAT'S ON web site address. It's on the cover of each issue, but a Ukrainian girl's body parts get in the way. Maybe it's: www.whatson-kyiv.com. From WHAT'S ON, 19 July-22 August 2002, pg. 28, col. 2: In particular they have all the Ukrainian classics: Borsch, Okroshka and Ukra fish soup. (OED doesn't have the classic "Okroshka"?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Jul 18 20:45:34 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:45:34 EDT Subject: wanta / wanna Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 4:28:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't > >you wanna?" I wonder: > > > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) > given > >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > > > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > > > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" > >(just kidding)... > > > One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume > others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a > t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. > Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? Take one look at the spelling "Fanta" and its seems obvious that it is short for "fantasy" or "fantasia" or some such, and therefore should rhyme with "Santa [Claus]". I don't understand why the slogan wasn't written "Wanta Fanta? Don't you wanta", but as the old Winston cigarette commercials demonstrated, Madison Avenue is shaky on English grammar. - Jim Landau From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Jul 18 20:57:19 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:57:19 -0500 Subject: hock/hawk (again) Message-ID: My limited experience with Minnesotans suggests that younger speakers (under 30) are merged. I'm curious about Millie's note that her family distinguish the sounds "about 90% of the time." This is a phonemic contrast - don't you either have to have it or not? In the other 10% of the time, do they switch into a new phonology? Or maybe it's lexically specific? Millie Webb wrote: > I cannot say I have NEVER noticed the hock/hawk thing sounding the same for > some people, but I maintain that most of my family (I have seven siblings, > ages 31 to 48, all married [some to non-Minnesotans], and four of them still > living in the Cities, one in Rural MN), all of whom still distinguish the > two sounds about ninety percent of the time ("misspeaks happen" obviously). > Both of my parents use them both too, with my mom born and raised in St > Paul, leaving for about ten years (Chicago and south-central Michigan), and > returning for the next forty years. My dad has lived in the Cities for > those last forty years. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 18 21:03:51 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:03:51 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >>Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >>annoying, but here goes just in case: >> >>In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >>you wanna?" I wonder: >> >>how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >>that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; >> >>whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; >> >>how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >>(just kidding)... >> >One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume >others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a >t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. >Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? > Only in a Monty Python routine. And if they didn't, they should've. Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:13:02 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:13:02 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 03:18 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >annoying, but here goes just in case: > >In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >you wanna?" I wonder: > >how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; > >whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; > >how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >(just kidding)... > >-Mai But (city) New Yorkers would pronounce "wanta" with /t/, wouldn't they? That would trigger the rhyme, even if we wouldn't ordinarily pronounce the drink name with /a/. Did the ad originate in New York, I wonder? From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:36:55 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:36:55 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020718181032.00b139d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Oops- I was wrong: there is a "t" in the spelling of "don't you wanta?" (FWIW) mk From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:02:07 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:02:07 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <9f.2a5772b1.2a684413@aol.com> Message-ID: Surely not. The /a/ of "warm" is massively influenced by the preceding /w/. That the /a/ of "harm" would be more like it (than that of "hot") is phonetically unlikely. The following /r/ may also impose features on /a/ which make it sound a bit like those preceded by /w/. dInIs (a "warsh" Louisville speaker with with a /a/ in /warsh/ like the /a/ in /warm/) >In a message dated 7/18/02 11:41:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > >> [You didn't mention >> "warsh" (for "wash"), which I had until I consciously suppressed it >> sometime in my teens. That /ar/ is a little more like "warm" than "arm."] > > >Yes, I still say /warsh/ and /warshingt'n/. My parents were born and raised >in Louisville, Ky. My grandparents are from Louisville, New York, and >Galicia (then part of Austria-Hungary). > >I think you are right about my /ar/, and specifically the /ar/ or "harsh", as >being more like "warm" than "arm". As best I can tell (I have NO training in >phonetics), my /ar/ in "arm" is much, uh, backer than my /ar/ in "harsh". >But that still leaves the question of why, unlike the M-W 10th Collegiate, I >pronounce "mop" and "mar" with noticeably different vowels. If I talk about >the Battle of the Marne (in France), I say /mahrn/, but if I mar the finish >on my desk, it is definitely /mawr/, close if not identical to my /aw/ of >"warm". > > Still confused, > > Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:06:00 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:06:00 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Does preventive homonymy go only one way? It's better for policemen to get laid than to lie? (Actually, i would think so, but that may be an ethical-political prejudice.) dInIs >At 12:03 PM -0400 7/18/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>#LAYING POLICEMAN--a speed bump. Said by my tour guide, when asked if >>#the bumps in the road have a slang name. >> >>We first heard "sleeping policeman" for these in Jamaica in 1972. >> >No doubt "lying policeman" (grammatically more "correct" than laying) >is blocked by homonymy... > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:12:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually Lw?w (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, including the "barred L)") which makes L?dz (pronounced /wutsh/) the most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. dInIs Prestonski >At 12:14 PM -0400 7/18/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 7/18/02 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >>writes: >> >> >>By the way, you mentioned your family came from "L'wiw". Do you mean "Lwow"? > >L'wiw is Ukrainian. Lwow is the Polish name. Lemberg is the German >name. Same place. (See the cover story in last Sunday's Times >Magazine for more on this. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Jul 18 23:16:16 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:16:16 -0400 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See my previous post on the influence of preceding /w/ on /a/. dInIs >At 3:18 PM -0500 7/18/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >>Maybe the reason we haven't discussed this is that it's uninteresting or too >>annoying, but here goes just in case: >> >>In a recent Fanta ad on TV, young women dance and chant: "Wanta Fanta? Don't >>you wanna?" I wonder: >> >>how long "wanta" will be spelled "wanta" (the text is shown in the ad) given >>that "wanta" and "wanna" are homophones; >> >>whether it is still possible to pronounce "want a" with /t/; >> >>how come the manufacturers don't seem to fear losing the /t/ in "Fanta" >>(just kidding)... >> >One problem, if it is a problem, is that "Fanta" for me (and I assume >others) doesn't come close to rhyming with "wanta" with or without a >t in the latter. This is an orthographic rhyme but not a real one. >Or do they pronounce it [fant@], with a back vowel? > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 00:02:44 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:02:44 -0400 Subject: Vienna's desserts, schnitzel (fwd) Message-ID: It looks as if I accidentally sent this only to Michael, not to the list. -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 09:02:22 -0400 On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: #> Again, it would appear that EURO is the plural, but I heard "EUROS" #> on BBC just now. And the BBC is always right? # #There is some confusion over this. It rests on a misunderstanding of #the original EU directive, which seemed to suggest that "euro" is #invariant in the plural in all circumstances. This is observed by #many organisations in formal documents, including the Irish and #British central banks and other financial institutions. However, in #popular usage the usual orthographic rules take precedence. And the committee that designed the Euro symbol also prescribed a very specific form for it -- the ends of the crossbars to be slanted at so many degrees, etc. -- to be used in all contexts, whether or not it harmonized with the font and style of the text. That, too, has wisely been ignored. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 00:08:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:08:49 -0400 Subject: Cunning (Was: Re: hawk/hock) In-Reply-To: <349515.3235973937@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #I think this use of "cunning" must have been fairly widespread in that #generation. # #--On Thursday, July 18, 2002 11:50 AM -0400 Catherine Aman # #> My grandmother [...] #> used the word "cunning" to describe something cute or pretty.) She was #> born and raised in Salem, Mass. Akkkk! Recollection just struck: My maternal grandmother, born and raised in NYC and lived there all her life, used it too. -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 19 03:02:49 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:02:49 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: Larry Horn said: >> Anyone from Boston or Eastern New England or New York who speaks a non-rhotic dialect (in which /r/ is not pronounced as a consonant at the end of a word or before a consonant) will approximate the "lahch" pronunciation. The stereotype is "pahk yaw cah in Hahvahd Yahd". << I have to mention a story relating to the eastern Mass. dialect. In 1978, a colleague of mine at U Mass in Amherst was reading the class list in the first day of a new semester. She was careful to try to get the names right, and when she asked one guy whether she had pronounced his last name correctly, his reply was, to her ears: "Oh, that's OK, my name gets *slotted* all the time." My colleague paused for a moment, trying to understand what the guy said. She decided to move on and not ask. Being born and raised in the Midwest and upstate New York (Ithaca), she had not previously been exposed to eastern Mass. dialect in the raw. Only later did she realize that what he was saying was _slaughtered_, but with the E Mass. r-lessness and characteristic pronunciation of the first syllable of _slaughtered_ to rhyme with "blah", not (as she would pronounce it) to rhyme with "slaw". What we noticed on discussing this and other such incidents is that one can hear quite a bit of E Mass dialect without noticing anything very different from what one might hear in Cleveland or Ithaca, NY, then all of a sudden comes a word like _slaughter_ to remind you of who is talking. (Though U Mass is in r-ful western Mass., most of the students there hail from E Mass.) On the hawk/hock theme directly, I can report that the name of the hockey team, the Chicago Black Hawks, is said, in the E Mass dialect, with the last word _Hawks_ rhyming with "pox". I have heard this in Boston Bruins hockey broadcasts since the late 70s. Frank Abate From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 19 03:12:19 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:12:19 -0400 Subject: Fw: Re: Matrushka; Hryvna: more Message-ID: Jim MacKillop's comment attached _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim MacKillop" To: "David Bergdahl" Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Re: Matrushka; Hryvna: more > David: > > The question is asked without sufficient background in > early European history. Recent evidence (genome > studies, etc.) suggests that the Celtic peoples (a > term of 18th century coinage) have no unified ethnic > identity, only shared, related languages. Those > languages are first noted in the east, especially the > Danube Valley. It appears that that people we call > "Celts" most often referred to themsleves with words > containing the phoneme gal-, thus the Latin Gallia. > People calling themselves gal- survived in many parts > of Europe, thus Portugal, as well as the two Galicias. > I am not sure what the Polish and Spanish examples > have identical spellings in English, but it's mostly > likely the influence of medieval Latin. In Poland, > which I have twice visited recently, Galicia is > pronounced ("gal-ITS-ya"), a Latin borrowing. > > Best, > > Jim MacKillop > --- David Bergdahl wrote: > > Jim Landau wrote > > > > "Which brings up the etymology of "Galicia". The > > region in Spain was, I am > > told, named after the Gauls (the people who lived in > > Omnis Gallia), which is > > confusing because the Spanish trace their ancestry > > to the "Celtiberians", > > the > > supposed merger of Celts with the pre-existing > > (proto-Basque?) Iberians. > > Also, the region's name seems to be spelled > > "Galicia" but the local dialect > > is "Gallego" (with palatalized "ll"). > > > > Is the Eastern European Galicia also named after the > > Gauls? And if so how > > did they get so far east, past the Goths into Slavic > > territory?" > > > > Your assumption is wrong--the Gauls did not > > originate in the west and > > migrate east, but originated in the east. They > > first show up north of the > > alps and then come in contact with the Romans in the > > Po Valley. The > > Germanic and Slavic peoples are later arrivals in > > northern and southwestern > > Europe. > > > > The Gauls, like the rest of the Celts--and all other > > Indo-Europeans--originated in the east and spread > > westwards into Europe; > > their origin has been contested over the last > > century but the center of the > > competing hypotheses seems to be the area north of > > the Black Sea. The Celts > > first invade Italy around 400 BCE and battle the > > Romans at Clusium in 390 > > BCE, defeating the Roman army on the Allia, advance > > on Rome, burn it and > > besiege the Capitol in 387 BCE--this is how they > > enter history, coming over > > the alps in N. Italy. (Dates from Gerhard Herm, The > > Celts [1975]). > > > > Jim McKillop (Dictionary of Celtic Mythology [1998]) > > says in part in his > > entry for Gaul "The culture and the language of the > > Celts extended across > > the Alps into Cisalpine Gaul ... what is today > > northern Italy down to the > > Apennines; at various times Celtic dialect was also > > spoken in much of > > northern Europe, from Austria, Hungary, the Czech > > Republic, Slovakia, much > > of the Balkans, to Galatia in what is today Turkey." > > > > The entry for Galatia says it is an "ancient > > district in central Anatolia > > ... settled in the 3rd century BC." > > _________________________________ > > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > > nicht" > > --Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 03:14:47 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:14:47 -0500 Subject: wanta / wanna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020718181032.00b139d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On 7/18/02 5:13 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > But (city) New Yorkers would pronounce "wanta" with /t/, wouldn't > they? That would trigger the rhyme, even if we wouldn't ordinarily > pronounce the drink name with /a/. Did the ad originate in New York, I > wonder? Interesting. But are you saying that there is some perceptual process that makes a near-rhyme sound like a rhyme to a listener in whose dialect the rhyme would occur? mk From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Fri Jul 19 03:28:13 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc Message-ID: I think the "cunning" is definitely a stronger marker for generation (psychosocial, if not actually chronological) than for region. I have heard it, and still hear it among Upper Midwestern Amish, but other than that have heard it only among older people (hmm, sixty or older? seventy or older?). It is definitiely "pop" in Minnesota, definitely "pop" in Michigan (including "diet pop"). But oddly enough , it seems to be "soda" in Wisconsin around Madison and Milwaukee. Methinks they "wanna/wanta" sound like Northeasterners? I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" When I say 90% of the time, Matt, I mean (as I believe I stated in my post) that they keep the distinction in theory all the time, but in practice, people misspeak, or their pronunciation is affected by the words surrounding the lexical item in question, the structure of the phrase or sentence, and so on. No one can tell me they "always" say [hahki], [hawki], or [haki] either, for another example. No one can tell me their sonogram would look the same each of ten times they said a given word, or even would be noted with the same exact "coloring" of the short vowel (influenced by -h, -w, lengthening, etc.) each of ten times by four different linguists who think they are coding "the same way". This is one reason I got so frustrated in graduate school one professor's insistence that I "couldn't" possibly code a NW Detroit white boy's short vowels the way I must have to come up with the counts I did -- it is "impossible" as far as he was concerned. Notice that not every sociolinguist's understanding of "strict IPA" coding matches either. Labov (or his graduate students, anyway!) coded some of their speakers' short vowels with some pretty odd "standards", viewed in later reflection. I have to ask if this is the Matt Gordon I know from MI. because if it is, I probably just embarassed myself by trying to answer a rhetorical question with way too much detail. :-) Amazing how memories of a particular personality fade over fifteen years, isn't it? :-P PS -- if it's the wrong Matt, please don't take it too personally.... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 13:45:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:45:42 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0400 7/18/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Actually Lw?w (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an >accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, >including the "barred L)") which makes L?dz (pronounced /wutsh/) the >most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. > >dInIs Prestonski > Even by me, and my maternal grandparents emigrated from there. I thought it was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, er, vowel of "look" and a voiced final affricate. But then they'd have spoken Yiddish and pronounced it god knows how. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:13:27 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:13:27 -0400 Subject: Weird misparsing of the week Message-ID: Talk about your misdivisions... I just received a posting I excerpt below on a medical list I subscribe to: I have launched a new website, designed to allow survivors, their families and caregivers, a place to share experiences and gain inspiration and hope. The site is not only for MCLers, but will encompass survivors of all cancers. But because of my affinity for this group, and in recognition of the significant part you have played in nurturing my survival, I want to introduce it here first. The site is www.survivorsmiles.com . The home page is up, and I hope you will visit and register to be notified when it is fully functional. We are doing the back-end work now, and anticipate roll-out within the next two weeks. I hope you will also tell friends, family, and caregivers who may not be members of this group (and may suffer other cancers) about the site, and encourage them to visit. I read it very quickly, focusing on the URL for the web site, and thought: Survivors miles--what an interesting concept. Frequent flyer miles reserved for cancer survivors (in the way that other programs allow you to build up miles for using a particular phone company or credit card). I clicked on the web site, to find it was... [spoiler space below, if you want to think about it] SurvivorSmiles.com (This sort of misparsing must happen quite often, although perhaps not so dramatically, given the lower-casing of URLs.) Oh well, a smile is sometimes as good as a mile. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:32:04 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:32:04 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 7:12 PM -0400 7/18/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Actually Lw?w (pronounced /lvuf/) is the Polish. The "o" has an >>accent mark which changes it to an /u/. It's this fact (among others, >>including the "barred L)") which makes L?dz (pronounced /wutsh/) the >>most frequently mispronounced Slavic place-name in English. >> >>dInIs Prestonski >> >Even by me, and my maternal grandparents emigrated from there. I >thought it was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, er, vowel of "look" and a >voiced final affricate. But then they'd have spoken Yiddish and >pronounced it god knows how. > Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 14:32:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:32:45 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/02 11:10:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET (pseudonym for Jim MacKillop) writes: > > It appears that that people we call > > "Celts" most often referred to themsleves with words > > containing the phoneme gal-, thus the Latin Gallia. > > People calling themselves gal- survived in many parts > > of Europe, thus Portugal, as well as the two Galicias. > > I am not sure what the Polish and Spanish examples > > have identical spellings in English, but it's mostly > > likely the influence of medieval Latin. In Poland, > > which I have twice visited recently, Galicia is > > pronounced ("gal-ITS-ya"), a Latin borrowing. /gal 'its ya/ for the Galicia in/around Poland is correct. I have most often heard /gal 'it see ya/ but that's a slight mangling by anglophones. People from the region are in my experience called /gal 'it see yah n'rs/, again probably a slight anglicization. /its/ is "a Latin borrowing"? I understand that the Polish name "Kac" is pronounced /kahtz/ (and means "Cohen"), from which I deduce that in Polish the letter "c" is pronounced /ts/. Thank you for the information about the derivation of "Portugal" as "something of the Gauls". I must now add Portugal to my list of European nations whose names are in languages not currently spoken in those countries, e.g. "Spain" is from the Celtic word "span" meaning "palm [of one's hand]", referring to the flat country of Spain's central plateau. Litvaks (as used here, the term means Jews of Lithuanian ancestry, such as my wife) sneered at Galicianers (again the reference is to Jews from the Galicia in Austria-Hungary such as myself) as country bumpkins. The term I have most often heard is "horsethief", which in this context means not "a man who steals horses" but rather "a man who eats with his fingers". For example, the then fiance of my wife's youngest sister said, while looking at me with a perfectly straight face, "but I was told there weren't any horsethieves in the family." Or the man who was given the sixth Torah honor at a synagogue he was visiting. He thought he deserved better than the sixth honor, so he said to the president of the synagogue, "Where I come from, we give the sixth honor to horsethieves." The president replied, "Here, too." So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. - James A. Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 14:54:16 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:54:16 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >Laurence Horn said: >>I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>er, vowel of "look" and a >>voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>spoken Yiddish and >>pronounced it god knows how. >> > >Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) > >Alice > Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lw?w bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lw?w [lvuf] does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. larry From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 15:05:06 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:05:06 -0500 Subject: touch-tone as verb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I went to activate a new credit card last night and was told to "touch-tone or say" my card number, the verification code, the last four digits of my SSN, etc. Not listed as a verb in NOAD, OED, AH4, or MW10, but I like it! I've been trying to think of a figurative use that doesn't sound salacious, but I can't. I don't know if that's my problem, or a problem of English. Oh, well. --Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 19 15:05:25 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:05:25 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: My Litvak wife (who has just discovered her family name Nieman was Novosetz~Novosedz~Nowosedz in Birzai, Lithuania) also remembers hearing Galitsiana for "bumpkin"--the equivalent of living in Podunk for USers. (The mythical residents of Chelm could also be invoked...) PS to Jim Landau--Jim MacKillop has no pseudonym: my teenage daughter picked "einstein" as our moniker--David Bergdahl _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 19 15:35:15 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:35:15 -0700 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). I didn't hear any difference in the pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), though I've never actually heard a Yiddish speaker mention the city. My Polish teacher had lived in the Lodz ghetto and done forced labor in a factory there during the war, but I don't know whether she was actually Jewish, or whether she spoke Yiddish. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:54 AM -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >> Laurence Horn said: >>> I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>> er, vowel of "look" and a >>> voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>> spoken Yiddish and >>> pronounced it god knows how. >>> >> >> Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >> years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >> subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) >> >> Alice >> > Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city > names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names > tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, > and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lw?w > bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lw?w [lvuf] > does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something > like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final > devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. > > larry **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jul 19 15:36:05 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:36:05 -0700 Subject: pop-soda, etc Message-ID: >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Millie Webb > wrote: > >I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" > > That really surprises me. I grew up in northern Kentucky and visited Cincinnati often, and "pop" was always the word of choice. I do seem to remember hearing "Coke" occasionally when I'd venture further south in Kentucky, though. The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we lived in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very confused when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke would you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" Brooke Pierce From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 15:47:59 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:47:59 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc (+ Providence, RI) Message-ID: Shades of Jim Belushi (Coke, Coke, Coke, Coke, Pepsi, Coke, Coke). I went to college in Providence and was amazed to discover something on menus called a cabinet. Turned out to be a milkshake, not a piece of furniture. > ---------- > From: Brooke Pierce > Reply To: brookepierce at earthlink.net > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: pop-soda, etc > > The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we > lived > in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very > confused > when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke > would > you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" > > > Brooke Pierce > > From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 15:50:25 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:50:25 -0500 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc Message-ID: The variation you describe is all subphonemic. The Northern Cities Shift, which gives fronting of the vowel in 'hockey', does not alter phonemic categories, just how they're produced. Shifters and nonshifters have the same number of phonemes. The back vowel thing is different. The question is whether you (generic) have 2 phonemes or one. Those of us who are blessed with a single low back vowel have the freedom to use a range of forms from [a] to 'open o' in 'hock' as well as 'hawk'. Those of you still saddled with the phonemic distinction don't have such freedom. Sure, there'll be some influence of phonetic context so that you may have a rounder and backer vowel in 'bought' , b/c of the lip rounding of /b/, than in 'taught', but that range of variation should be smaller than for us, mergeratti. If someone really has a phonemic distinction, it seems unlikely to me that 10% of the time (and I recognize this is not an empirical finding) they would 'mispeak' to the point of confusing the distinction. After all, if this is a performance error (a term variationists despise), it should be random. Do they confuse the distinction between 'bought' and 'boat' also? As you know, phonemic distinctions are phonemic b/c they matter to comprehension, unlike most allophonic differences (e.g., [haki] v. [hAki]). So, the bottom-line question is what is going on phonemically. You could try a little test of the status of the vowel contrast. Present them with a list of words such as [caught, lot, dog, hawk, box, odd, cough, rough, hot] and ask them which of those has the same vowel as 'bought'. For people with a clear distinction, this task is pretty easy and they choose 'caught, hawk, cough', and maybe 'dog'. People who've merged tend to choose everything except 'rough'. People who choose 'cough' and 'rough' are likely confused about the task and focussing on spelling. Since the 'open o' phoneme is represented with a number of different spellings, it's very hard for a merged speaker to fake their way through the task - unless they've had training in the history of English. And, yes Millie, this is the Matt you knew at Michigan. -----Original Message----- From: Millie Webb [mailto:millie-webb at CHARTER.NET] When I say 90% of the time, Matt, I mean (as I believe I stated in my post) that they keep the distinction in theory all the time, but in practice, people misspeak, or their pronunciation is affected by the words surrounding the lexical item in question, the structure of the phrase or sentence, and so on. No one can tell me they "always" say [hahki], [hawki], or [haki] either, for another example. No one can tell me their sonogram would look the same each of ten times they said a given word, or even would be noted with the same exact "coloring" of the short vowel (influenced by -h, -w, lengthening, etc.) each of ten times by four different linguists who think they are coding "the same way". From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:00:52 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:00:52 -0400 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C4@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Gordon, Matthew J. said: >The variation you describe is all subphonemic. The Northern Cities >Shift, which gives fronting of the vowel in 'hockey', does not alter >phonemic categories, just how they're produced. Shifters and >nonshifters have the same number of phonemes. > >The back vowel thing is different. The question is whether you >(generic) have 2 phonemes or one. Those of us who are blessed with a >single low back vowel have the freedom to use a range of forms from >[a] to 'open o' in 'hock' as well as 'hawk'. Those of you still >saddled with the phonemic distinction don't have such freedom. Sure, >there'll be some influence of phonetic context so that you may have >a rounder and backer vowel in 'bought' , b/c of the lip rounding of >/b/, than in 'taught', but that range of variation should be smaller >than for us, mergeratti. > >If someone really has a phonemic distinction, it seems unlikely to >me that 10% of the time (and I recognize this is not an empirical >finding) they would 'mispeak' to the point of confusing the >distinction. After all, if this is a performance error (a term >variationists despise), it should be random. Do they confuse the >distinction between 'bought' and 'boat' also? As you know, phonemic >distinctions are phonemic b/c they matter to comprehension, unlike >most allophonic differences (e.g., [haki] v. [hAki]). > There's another possibility. As part of her study that I referred to earlier in this thread, Marianna Di Paolo collected a whole bunch of /a/-/ao/ minimal pair data (cot-caught, hock-hawk, wok-walk, tock-talk [her subjects weren't linguistics students so she couldn't use my favorite, ox-AUX], etc.). There were subjects who distinguished all, or most of the minimal pairs, but with some of them reversed, so, say tock and hawk had the same vowel and talk and hock had the same vowel. Assigning an individual lexical item to the etymologically incorrect category could be perceived as an inconsistent use of the distinction. And while we're on this theme, a datum that I'm not sure what to make of: on one of the usenet groups I read, a poster was talking about baby names and said "we named her Laurel Dawn, Laurel after my grandmother and Dawn after my husband, Don". (I have no clues where in the US this poster is from, and she didn't have a valid email address, so I couldn't ask.) Alice -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 15:49:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:49:22 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: <179.b81ee55.2a697d0d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names Twice #appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) -- Mark M. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:10:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:10:20 -0700 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C4@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: OED? --On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:50 AM -0500 "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > mergeratti **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Jul 19 16:45:03 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:45:03 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? What regions? Herb Stahlke From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 16:55:28 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:55:28 -0400 Subject: Matrushka; Hryvna In-Reply-To: <134629.3236056515@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: No, in Polish the [u] is phonemically tense (close), not an allophone of /u/ being influenced by /w/. dInIs >For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a >woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I >suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so >that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as >close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). >I didn't hear any difference in the >pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. > >I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its >Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), >though >I've never actually heard a Yiddish speaker mention the city. My >Polish teacher had lived in the Lodz ghetto and done forced labor in >a factory there during the war, but I don't know whether she was >actually Jewish, or whether she spoke Yiddish. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Friday, July 19, 2002 10:54 AM -0400 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 10:32 AM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: >>>Laurence Horn said: >>>>I thought it [pronunciation of Lodz] was /wUdzh/, with the wowel, >>>>er, vowel of "look" and a >>>>voiced final affricate. But then they [my grandparents]'d have >>>>spoken Yiddish and >>>>pronounced it god knows how. >>>> >>> >>>Well, most varieties of Yiddish lost final devoicing lo these many >>>years. And therein hangs a tale, actually, many tales. (It was >>>subsequently reacquired in some varieties of Polish Yiddish.) >>> >>>Alice >>> >>Well, yes, but my point was that virtually none of the Polish city >>names sounded anything like that in Yiddish. The Yiddish names >>tended to be much closer to the German names for the relevant cities, >>and perhaps (does anyone here know?) the German/Yiddish take on Lw?w >>bears as much relation to either [wUdzh] or [wutsh] as Lw?w [lvuf] >>does to Lemberg. Or maybe not--it could have just been something >>like [lOdz], the way "Lodz" would come out in German minus final >>devoicink, with O = open o. These are, however, stabs in the dark. >> >>larry > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 16:52:51 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:52:51 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 11:49:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:19:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:19:54 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc (+ Providence, RI) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:47 AM -0400 7/19/02, Catherine Aman wrote: >Shades of Jim Belushi (Coke, Coke, Coke, Coke, Pepsi, Coke, Coke). > >I went to college in Providence and was amazed to discover something on >menus called a cabinet. Turned out to be a milkshake, not a piece of >furniture. > Yes, "cabinet" for 'milk shake' is standardly listed as a Rhode Island shibboleth, but I wasn't sure I believed it until I saw them listed as such in a snack shop in the Westerly/Misquamicut area (southwestern R.I.). larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:38:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:38:13 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <001b01c22f43$a23b3a20$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: >Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >What regions? > >Herb Stahlke Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:53:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:53:31 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in this matter. dInIs dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >>Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>What regions? >> >>Herb Stahlke > >Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >"Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 17:51:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:51:04 -0400 Subject: cunning, hawk-hock, pop-soda, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:00 PM -0400 7/19/02, Alice Faber wrote: > As part of her study that I referred to >earlier in this thread, Marianna Di Paolo collected a whole bunch of >/a/-/ao/ minimal pair data (cot-caught, hock-hawk, wok-walk, >tock-talk [her subjects weren't linguistics students so she couldn't >use my favorite, ox-AUX], etc.). Well, for non-linguist birders, there's always ox-auks. I take it there's no one out there who phonetically distinguishes the sea birds from the functional category. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 18:21:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:21:22 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:53 PM -0400 7/19/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work >before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ >appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional >distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more >rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas >(Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in >this matter. > >dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against Pittsburgh's "Stillers"), but those "urban East"-type generalizations are odious, even if we all sound alike to you Midwesterners. Those PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart from their marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that they neutralize before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to perdition. We New Yorkers would never fall for that. L From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 19 18:38:56 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: For some time I've been interested in the way some people have regarded an execution as a wedding. For example, French has "la veuve" (= widow; guillotine) and English at one time had "the widow" (= gallows). The idea is that the gallows or guillotine is regarded as marrying the condemned prisoner at the time of execution; but since the prisoner promptly dies, the gallows/guillotine becomes a widow. A NY Times article of about 15 years ago (I didn't save it) mentioned that in the 19th century some prisoners went to their hanging in a wedding suit. Then there are the recent items pertaining to the Al Qaeda members, who regard their act of martyrdom as a wedding (maybe the 72 virgins play a role here). An article in the German magazine _Spiegel_ a month or two after 9/11 discussed a suspected terrorist cell in Italy. And I was struck by mention of a code word (presumably in Arabic) used by one alleged terrorist in a phone conversation: "Wedding." Meanwhile, I was also struck by another Spiegel article (Sept. 17, 1984,pp.142-144; title: "Wir werden hingerichtet" = "We will be executed"). The article is about Elizabeth (not her real name) who had been held in the notorious Evin prison in Teheran by the Khomeini regime. On page 143 she tells how she heard singing coming from a nearby room and recognized it as the Persian wedding song; the men singing had all been scheduled for execution. Here's a translation of the German text: "...'Welcome to Hotel Evin,' said the (female) guard and walked on. Over 40 of the women, after 'confessions' were beaten out of them, had been condemned to death... Elizabeth heard some of the men in a nearby upper room singing. At first she could not understand the words, but then she realized that it was the Persian wedding song. 'In this night out greatest wish will be fulfilled,' sang the men. A guard shouted at them to shut up. A voice answered; "Why should we? What else can you do to us. We're going to be executed.'" If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 19:08:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:08:49 -0400 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this >execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. > I don't know much about other cultures, but could there be a connection with the old factoid (I don't know if it's actually true) that upon being hanged, men get (and retain post-mortem) rather impressive erections? There are various fabliaux based on this assumption as well. But that would certainly reinforce the hanging = wedding connection. larry From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 19:37:11 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:37:11 -0400 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: anecdotal & free-associative thoughts only here, but some of my (male) friends have looked, at their weddings, distinctly like lambs being led to slaughter. resultant states of both wedding & execution proceedings are (or are supposed to be) permanent, and anticipation of same therefore inspires awe, fear & sense of radical departure from one's current status/world. both ceremonies are (or were) public, state-sanctioned ones in traditional communities. also, Catholic nuns renounce the world and "marry" the Church. > ---------- > From: Laurence Horn > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Execution viewed as wedding > > At 1:38 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > > If anyone familiar with other cultures has more examples of this > >execution-as-wedding view, I'd be grateful to hear of them. > > > I don't know much about other cultures, but could there be a > connection with the old factoid (I don't know if it's actually true) > that upon being hanged, men get (and retain post-mortem) rather > impressive erections? There are various fabliaux based on this > assumption as well. But that would certainly reinforce the hanging = > wedding connection. > > larry > > From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 19:45:03 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:45:03 -0500 Subject: three-seventeen? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: someone has written me asking about a slang meaning for "three-seventeen" or "3-17" in this context: >I was watching Shipmates last night, and >the male dater used the phrase "three seventeen" a couple times. First, >when he jumped off a boat into the water, he yelled "3-17!" Then later, he >said that he was looking forward to "getting my 3-17 on." The host of the >show commented on this and said that he thought it was a veiled reference >to St. Patrick's Day. At first I thought it was some weird bible thing, >but the guy didn't seem like the type. The only (weird Bible) thing I could find was this: Colossians three seventeen says "And whatever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him" Although it seems odd for a TV dating show (which I think Shipmates is, although I haven't seen it). I did a quick google and looked in the ADS archives, but no luck. I might not have done a good job; searching for numbers is tricky. (However, it seems that three-seventeen is a very popular time in fan fiction.) --Erin From caman at AMLAW.COM Fri Jul 19 20:00:17 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:00:17 -0400 Subject: three-seventeen? Message-ID: Re: 3/17 (from Blue Tigers Web site): "Delta Troop was a cavalry reconnaissance troop that served in Vietnam from October 1967 to April 1972. Our parent organization, the 3rd Squadron/17th Air Cavalry, was an independent air cavalry squadron. The squadron, and even its component troops and platoons, served with many different combat brigades and divisions on temporary assignment." Perhaps a reference to this air unit or its upcoming reunion? Or perhaps police radio shorthand (like "10-90") as used on pagers by kids? Or perhaps an area code (it's Indiana) reference to some festival, trip, etc? > ---------- > From: Erin McKean > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 3:45 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: three-seventeen? > > someone has written me asking about a slang meaning for > "three-seventeen" or "3-17" in this context: > > >I was watching Shipmates last night, and > >the male dater used the phrase "three seventeen" a couple times. First, > >when he jumped off a boat into the water, he yelled "3-17!" Then later, > he > >said that he was looking forward to "getting my 3-17 on." The host of > the > >show commented on this and said that he thought it was a veiled reference > >to St. Patrick's Day. At first I thought it was some weird bible thing, > >but the guy didn't seem like the type. > > > The only (weird Bible) thing I could find was this: > > Colossians three seventeen says "And whatever ye do in word or deed, do > all in > the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by > him" > > Although it seems odd for a TV dating show (which I think Shipmates > is, although I haven't seen it). I did a quick google and looked in > the ADS archives, but no luck. I might not have done a good job; > searching for numbers is tricky. (However, it seems that > three-seventeen is a very popular time in fan fiction.) > > --Erin > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Jul 18 22:42:39 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:42:39 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock In-Reply-To: <162.10dae6b2.2a6820b3@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:46 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/17/02 4:37:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > > > I've never come across a hoarse horse. > > > > > >Of course not. That would be a horse of a different collar. > > > > > > Perfect--especially since in my area (SE Ohio) "color" is pronounced like > > either "collar" (with /a/) or "caller" (with the almost-/O/ of British >'lot') > >I find that odd, because I was born and raised in Louisville KY and have >never noticed anyone making homophones out of "color", "collar", and >"caller". My play on words would work as well verbally as in writing, (for >me, at least). > >color: short 'u" in the first syllable, rhymes with "cull 'er" or "hull 'er" >collar: /ah/ as in "father". rhymes with "holler" or the first two syllables >of "tolerance" >caller: /aw/ as in "arm", rhymes with "taller" [and "haul 'er," to >continue the pattern?] > >MWCD10 agrees with me, so I guess you'd better have your landspeople start >sending their resumes to Merriam-Webster's phonetics department in time to >influence the 11th Collegiate. > > Confused, > > Jim Landau Now you know dictionaries don't always capture all variant pronunciations. I assure you, all three words can be homophones in this area of Ohio, where merger of /a/ and /aw/ (or /O/) is common but not to the /a/ of central Ohio and west of the Mississippi. (These are not my "landspeople", but I've studied the area for 22 years.) The vowel in "color" may lower to /a/, OR it may back to form a triple merger with 'collar' and 'caller', but at the intermediate low back rounded vowel heard in Brit. Eng. "hot" (cf. Kenyon). One of our dept. secretaries says "color" with /a/, the other with the "turned script a" used by Kenyon, Ladefoged, Wells, Kurath & McDavid, et al. Louisville doesn't merge any of these sounds, if I understand you and Dennis correctly. SE Ohio has the Pittsburgh merger of /a/ and /O/ to "turned script a," but it adds (in the local "uncorrected" vernacular) the lowered and sometimes backed vowel in "color." Trust me. I've learned that it is also used in Newfoundland, where one linguist I talked to attributes it to Scots-Irish and/or Irish roots. BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Fri Jul 19 21:19:04 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:19:04 -0500 Subject: mock dictionary definitions that lexicographers would actually find humorous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here they are. http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0207/delight/ The first one made me laugh, anyway. Sorry for the cross-post. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 19 21:53:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:53:20 -0400 Subject: pop-soda, etc Message-ID: At 08:36 AM 7/19/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:28:13 -0500 Millie Webb > >wrote: > > > >I have known a number of people from Kentucky, and Southern Ohio who call it >all "Coke", by the way. As in: "what kinda Coke do you want?" > > > > > >That really surprises me. I grew up in northern Kentucky and visited >Cincinnati often, and "pop" was always the word of choice. I do seem to >remember hearing "Coke" occasionally when I'd venture further south in >Kentucky, though. > >The first time I heard the use of Coke was before moving to KY, when we lived >in Providence - they used it there all the time. I recall being very confused >when I went to a restaurant and the waitress asked: "What kind of Coke would >you like? Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew?" > > >Brooke Pierce I agree with Brooke on southern (and southeastern) Ohio generally as "pop" areas; no one in Athens County would say "coke" (note small 'c'). But perhaps the very lowest part of Ohio, around Portsmouth ("Porchmouth," as in Virginia) and Ironton ("Arn?on," with glottal stop), uses "coke"; I'll check with my students from that mid-Kentucky-latitude region. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Jul 19 22:02:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:02:41 EDT Subject: The Pierian spring Message-ID: In a message dated 07/19/2002 4:09:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test > words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed > schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different > matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. Having no training in phonetics, I know better than to touch the Pierian spring of IPA. That's why I have been giving rhymes, in hopes of not being ambiguous. For me the first syllable of "color" rhymes with cull, dull, gull, hull, lull, mull, null, sully, and skull. If that doesn't help, then it is the vowel as in Hun, Khun, Kun, nun, run, sun, ton, won, and of course pun. Pronouncing "color" as /'cUl-'r/ (that is, with the /U/ of pull, wood, good, etc.) sounds very odd to my ears. I really have no idea what the usual pronunciation of "wash" might be in Louisville, Kentucky. Obvously my family or somebody I learned from said /warsh/ with a vowel somewhere near that of "arm". Living here in the Northeast, I'm often asked where my Southern accent is. I think I have faint traces of such, particullarly in the word "Southern", which I pronounce as /suth-'n/ (/u/ as in, well, color), dropping most or all of the /r/. Now, if I drop a fair number of /r/s, why should I insert a superfluous /r/ in "wash"? Still confused Jim Landau From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 22:37:26 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:37:26 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in this matter. dInIs dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >>Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>What regions? >> >>Herb Stahlke > >Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >"Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >larry From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Jul 19 23:00:39 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:00:39 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: on 7/19/02 5:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. at GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU wrote: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig > but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by > Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Maybe the spelling reflects earlier forms that are relevant here. Would any vowel except a "long o" sound right in vogue or rogue or a "long u" in fugue? The -logue words seem not to have the "long o," perhaps because of some influence from the preceding syllables that I don't wanna figure out right now. In a sense, it is a "lexical" matter. DMLance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Cc: > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work > before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ > appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional > distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more > rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas > (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in > this matter. > > dInIs > > dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > > > >>> Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named >>> Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling >>> of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, >>> where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. >>> I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I >>> don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children >>> had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? >>> What regions? >>> >>> Herb Stahlke >> >> Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a >> murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) >> "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the >> friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story >> was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for >> me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. >> tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the >> Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. >> >> larry > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 19 23:36:50 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:36:50 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 5:37 PM -0500 7/19/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax >vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe >Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with >that.) > Heh, heh. In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in [krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense (without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. L From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 19 23:45:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:45:47 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: <62.22c97f57.2a699de3@aol.com> Message-ID: [James A. Landau] #So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names #Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. [Mark A. Mandel] "Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) [Jim again] #Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). The premise of the stories is a gadget, the "spindizzy", that has made it possible for the cities of an economically exhausted Earth to "go Okie", traveling through space as migrant labor for other human-settled worlds. At one point the main character of the stories, the mayor of New York, is appearing incognito at a meeting of many leaders of flying cities, who are often called by the names of their cities, e.g. (made-up ex.), "The Chair recognizes Topeka." An ally in his parliamentary maneuverings asks him who he is, and he whispers, "What city has two names, twice?" The other gasps as he solves the riddle (New York being one of the most respected of the cities). Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up, and just now that you had gotten it from his story. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 00:13:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:13:04 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [James A. Landau] >#So now we know Barry Popik's little secret. The City With Two Names >#Twice appoints horsethieves as parking ticket judges. > > [Mark A. Mandel] >"Come Fly With Me"... (Jim will get that; most others here will not.) > > [Jim again] >#Other way around. This Galicianer horsethief is baffled. > >OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for >NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's >"Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). > >... >Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all >along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up, and just now >that you had gotten it from his story. > Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" larry From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Jul 20 01:28:13 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:28:13 -0400 Subject: hawk/hock Message-ID: I was wondering if this topic is the one with most contributions from List members. And if so, why? Allan Metcalf may want to cite this for honorable mention at the ADS annual meeting. Just a thought! Tom Paikeday From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 01:43:30 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:43:30 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/2002 8:12:00 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" >> I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jul 20 02:04:44 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:04:44 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: Yeah, I think Craig might be lexically exceptional. I'm pretty sure I have a tense vowel in Haig, so it's homophonous with Hague. Still, I rarely put much stock in my linguistic intuitions and probably even less so when dealing with unusual words like these. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 6:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in [krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense (without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. L From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 20 02:11:26 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:11:26 -0500 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: If it weren't for "vegg", "Hegg & Hegg", and "plegg", I might buy that it's lexical. Rather, I think this is a relatively rare sequence--only "vague" is fairly frequent, so it could just as well be an elimination of a not very productive contrast. Note that there are no lax vowel words in English that form minimal pairs with these, so laxing them causes no problems. Herb Stahlke > on 7/19/02 5:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. at GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU wrote: > > > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in Craig > > but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is influenced by > > Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) > > Maybe the spelling reflects earlier forms that are relevant here. Would any > vowel except a "long o" sound right in vogue or rogue or a "long u" in > fugue? The -logue words seem not to have the "long o," perhaps because of > some influence from the preceding syllables that I don't wanna figure out > right now. In a sense, it is a "lexical" matter. > > DMLance > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU] > > Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 12:53 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > > > Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work > > before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ > > appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional > > distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more > > rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas > > (Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in > > this matter. > > > > dInIs > > > > dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') > > > > > > > >>> Yesterday I noticed that my optometrist had taken on a new partner named > >>> Kregg Koons. Aside from the obvious orthographic alliteration, the spelling > >>> of his first name reflects the pronunciation of Craig in Central Indiana, > >>> where the tense front mid vowel laxes, also in words like vague and Hague. > >>> I can't think of other words where I have the tense vowel before /g/, and I > >>> don't think it's very common. I noticed twenty years ago that my children > >>> had this laxing, and many of my students have it as well. Is this regional? > >>> What regions? > >>> > >>> Herb Stahlke > >> > >> Funny--I was just listening to an audio book yesterday in which a > >> murdered character was identified by a friend as (what sounded like) > >> "Kregg" and, asked how it was spelled (it was a last name), the > >> friend responded "C-R-A-I-G". I reflected that (although the story > >> was set in NYC) there must be another dialect area at work, since for > >> me there's a sharp distinction between lax "Kregg" or "Cregg" vs. > >> tense "Craig". The latter rhymes with "vague", "plague", and "the > >> Hague", the former with "beg", "keg", "leg", "Greg", etc. > >> > >> larry > > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 20 02:22:02 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:22:02 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Those > PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart > from their > marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that > they neutralize > before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to > perdition. We New > Yorkers would never fall for that. An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my merries and Murrays apart... Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 03:02:38 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:02:38 EDT Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: I agree that Greg has influenced Craig--where I grew up (Central NY) we have a good distinction between Greg and vague, but Craig rhymes with Greg. Dale Coye From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 03:06:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:06:00 -0400 Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: [Mark Mandel] #>OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for #>NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's #>"Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). #Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it twice" Yes, THAT one I know as a publicity slogan. -- Mark M. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 03:20:59 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:20:59 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <126.13dea3d5.2a6a2cce@aol.com> Message-ID: Dale Coye said: >I agree that Greg has influenced Craig--where I grew up (Central NY) we have >a good distinction between Greg and vague, but Craig rhymes with Greg. And just to confuse things further--or perhaps evidence of this confusion--is the name of a former Yankees third baseman Graig Nettles. I only ever heard announcers pronounce it as if it were Greg. Alice -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 04:48:59 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:48:59 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 6:43:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > In a message dated 7/19/2002 8:12:00 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > << Much more standard is "New York, NY: the city so nice they named it > twice" >> > > I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. Every Pacific Northwesterner knows it's Walla Walla--that's exactly what I thought when I saw the subject line. Fritz From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 04:58:11 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:58:11 EDT Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/02 3:37:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax vowel in > Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe Craig is > influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) When I was in grad school, I had two buddies named Greg, one from Indiana and the other from Utah. Our prof was speaking to the Hoosier one day and called him grEg which he corrected to Grayg, i.e. [gre:g]. The other Greg agreed with that pronunciation. Both seemed a little put off with 'grEg.' I have always rhymed Greg, leg, egg, beg with Craig--with [e:] or even [ei], definitely not [E]. Fritz PS Is this another Oregon/Washington isogloss? :-) From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 20 04:57:10 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:57:10 -0700 Subject: Lodz In-Reply-To: <134629.3236056515@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: >For a while during college I took Polish lessons privately from a >woman from Lodz. She pronounced it [wudzh] as I perceived it. I >suspect the final affricate may actually be devoiced but lenis, so >that I interpreted it as still voiced. I remember the vowel as >close rather than open (under the influence of the preceding [w-]?). >I didn't hear any difference in the >pronunciation of the name by our guide on a tour in Poland two years ago. > >I HEARD somewhere that while the Poles pronounce it [wudzh], its >Yiddish-speaking inhabitants pronounced it [l)dz} (with )=open o), >though My mother was born in Bolyislatzve (I have never looked at a map nor seen that written, this may be the first time I've tried to spell it) - a little town in Poland. Though she came to the US when she was 5, she said the nearest big town was Lodz and pronounced the initial l and the rest as above, i.e., ludzh. She never spoke Polish, only Yiddish as a child. Since all siblings are now deceased, I can't ask anyone for corroboration. Rima From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Sat Jul 20 05:09:59 2002 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:09:59 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: >This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >Pittsburgh's "Stillers") Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly thereafter. Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have in )? Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers." -- Leo Tolstoy From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Jul 20 06:15:40 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:15:40 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig Message-ID: > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax > vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. > Maybe Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything > wrong with that.) I once met a person from the small town of Hague, Saskatchewan. "As in, 'The Hague?'" I asked politely. "No, not 'the hag'... 'Haig!'" Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Jul 20 07:09:25 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:09:25 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. Rima From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:27:56 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:27:56 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >'Urban East' is a sillniess i should never have uttered. dInIs >At 1:53 PM -0400 7/19/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Vowel conflaters (almost always laxers), having completed their work >>before /r/, and well into it before /l/, are now moving on; pre /g/ >>appears to be their next stop on this road to perdition. The regional >>distribution is not exactly known, but the process seems to be more >>rampant in the urban East but productive in many other areas >>(Mountain West, South) as well; the Midwest, in my opinion, lags in >>this matter. >> >>dInIs (who, in his football days, always took the 'field,' not the 'filled') >> >This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >Pittsburgh's "Stillers"), but those "urban East"-type generalizations >are odious, even if we all sound alike to you Midwesterners. Those >PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart from their >marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that they neutralize >before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to perdition. We New >Yorkers would never fall for that. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:44:44 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:44:44 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C7@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: >Yes, Matt, I liike historical anecdotes better than intuitions. But >I am pretty sure that lax "Craig" for me is learned. When I was a >young flatland hillbilly (from Lousville), I had the temerity to >appear in some Shakespearean productions. Starting at the bottom of >course, I began my way up by appearing as a murderer in the Scottish >play. One of Macduff's children (whom I was about to send to his >maker) refers to me as a "shag-haired villain," and I was to exclaim >"What! You egg!" On my first reading, I used my local tense vowel >(as I also did in "leg" and other such items). I was advised to >relax. dInIs > >Yeah, I think Craig might be lexically exceptional. I'm pretty sure >I have a tense vowel in Haig, so it's homophonous with Hague. Still, >I rarely put much stock in my linguistic intuitions and probably >even less so when dealing with unusual words like these. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] >Sent: Fri 7/19/2002 6:36 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Cc: >Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > >In the context I brought up (the murderee whose name was Craig as in >[krEg]) this may be a factor, as his full name was Gregory Craig. >For me, it would still and evermore be tense in the latter. Would >you distinguish Haig (as in the General who would be "in charge here" >after Reagan was shot) from the Hague? I suppose the spelling may be >a factor for me--I'd distinguish an orthographic Pague/Paig as tense >(without ever having heard them pronounced) from the lax Peg. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:47:24 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:47:24 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <20020720022202.86033.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nope. larry ill-advisedly spells the plural of "Mary" as "Maries" and you took it (quite reasonably) to be "Marie," which of course all of us conflaters keep distinct. dInIs > > Those >> PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries apart >> from their >> marries and merries, so it's not too surprising that >> they neutralize >> before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to >> perdition. We New >> Yorkers would never fall for that. > >An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, >marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my >merries and Murrays apart... > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 12:58:12 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 08:58:12 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: What makes me think /E/-/e/ conflation is related to /I/-/i/ conflation (and /u/-/U/ as well), at least before /l/, is the fact that, at least in our tapes of people from such areas, those who have "filled" for "field" also have "felled" for "failed" and "pull" for "pool." Looks pretty staightforward to us. Geography is a problem since we have tapes of speakers with these conflations from a wide area, particularly African American speakers from all over the country. If this conflation follows from the same conflation before /r/, as I suspect it does quite naturally, then one would not expect it to appear in areas where distinctions before /r/ are robust (as in NYC "Mary"-"merry", as larry so vehemently pointed out). dInIs PS: Of course, I know "marry" is also distinct, but since /ae/ apparently has both tense and lax versions inn NYC (hence the complex /ae/-raising rule), it doesn't really play a role in this "simple" tense-lax discussion. >On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: > >>This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >>the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >>Pittsburgh's "Stillers") > >Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , >and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly >thereafter. > >Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] >conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have >in )? > >Cheers, >Scott > >_____________________________________________________________ >Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator > >sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com >http://www.spanishtranslator.org >_____________________________________________________________ >"Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale >murderers." > -- Leo Tolstoy -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 14:27:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:27:49 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Rima McKinzey wrote: #For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg #rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I #wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. This goes for me, with two modifications: "raised but not born in NYC", and "why Gary can rhyme with either marry or Mary". -- Mark Mandel From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 20 14:57:20 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:57:20 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry and Murray or ferry and furry. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Nope. larry ill-advisedly spells the plural of > "Mary" as "Maries" and > you took it (quite reasonably) to be "Marie," which > of course all of > us conflaters keep distinct. > > dInIs > > > > Those > >> PA folks don't even reliably keep their Maries > apart > >> from their > >> marries and merries, so it's not too surprising > that > >> they neutralize > >> before /g/ and /l/. Talk about your road to > >> perdition. We New > >> Yorkers would never fall for that. > > > >An Iggles fan myself, I certainly keep my Maries, > >marries, and merries apart. I just can't keep my > >merries and Murrays apart... > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > >http://health.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 15:03:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:03:41 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology Message-ID: Greetings from Odessa, on a vacation where I get on the internet to see how much money I've lost. ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh water source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. This sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this one? THE KYIV BEET & KYIV BURP--Kiev's answer to THE ONION. See www.geocities.com/thekyivbeet. The other one is listed only at kyivburp307 at hotmail.com. WOMAN WITH A KITCHEN KNIFE--Nickname for the ugly Soviet statue in Kiev (Motherland), supposedly their answer to the Statue of Liberty. TO LIVE IS GOOD. TO LIVE GOOD IS BETTER--My tour guide said this was a saying in Soviet days. BANDURA--"is a Ukrainian folk instrument which looks somewhat like a misshapen lute but sounds somewhat like a harp." Only one OED hit, with the Ukraine not mentioned. DREIDEL--The Museum of Historical Treasures of Ukraine has 400 items of Judaica, including a Scroll of Esther. Not one dreidel!...No Jewish Museum anywhere around here. OFF TOPIC: BABI YAR--A menorah was finally placed on the site in 1991, fifty years later. The site happens to be near a destroyed Jewish cemetery. A communications plaza is now built on the Jewish graves. The Soviets, under pressure, put an ugly statue on the wrong site in 1976. No mention of Jews was on the plaque. One Ukrainian writer was killed at Babi Yar, so the Soviets put up a large cross. Amazing. WALLET TRICK--As I was walking down the street, I saw a wallet on the ground. Someone near me picked it up. Then a man came and asked me, in English, if I found his wallet. Hey guy, you got the scam wrong, because the wrong guy picked it up! I was told that the "wallet scam" is famous all over the Ukraine, but I don't know if there's a particular name for it. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 15:10:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:10:30 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <20020720145720.13416.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ed Keer said: >Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >and Murray or ferry and furry. Definitely part of the Iggles complex, as both phenomena (rooting for the Iggles and near-merger of merry and Murray) are endemic to Philadelphia. Labov has written extensively on one branch of this complex. Alice -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 15:29:08 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:29:08 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology In-Reply-To: <64B5A392.5621AE4B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: >Barry writes: >ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh water >source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. This >sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this one?< ~~~~~~ Seems more likely this dubious notion would have been "enough water," not "no water" (assez d'eau). A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 20 15:33:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:33:11 -0400 Subject: Odessa etymology In-Reply-To: <64B5A392.5621AE4B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #ODESSA ETYMOLOGY--My tour guide today said that Odessa has no fresh #water source, and the name "Odessa" is "no water" backwards in French. #This sounds like folk etymology; not even Google seems to have this #one? Odessa laugh! (This is from an old joke dialogue using place names. If you don't get it, think of it as "Oh, that's a laugh!" in some appropriate combination of accent and skewed pronunciation.) -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 15:43:21 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:43:21 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Ed Keer said: >>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>and Murray or ferry and furry. ~~~~~ Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" --like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. A. Murie From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Jul 20 15:43:10 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:43:10 +0100 Subject: Odessa etymology Message-ID: Nathalie Babel 'The Complete Works of Isaac Babel' (NY 2002) p.183 (note) 'Khadzhibei was the small settlement where in 1794 Czarina Catherine II decided to build a powerful Black Sea harbor, which she then renamed Odessa.' No etymology, I fear, but that remark doesn't _sound_ as if French came into it. Anyway, 'no water' would be 'pas d'eau' wouldn't it? Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 17:30:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT Subject: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) Message-ID: In a message dated 07/19/2002 7:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" for > NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James Blish's > "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). The only place I ever heard "two names twice" was in Blish's _Earthman Come Home_, which is the third volume of the Cities in Flight series. Blish was not much given to inserting wisecracks in his writing, so I guessed that it was an old New York riddle that Blish (who I think worked in Madison Avenue) had heard. There are only 2 Blish wisecracks that I can remember. Both are obscure puns, made even more obscure by not being in English. One was from the Cities in Flight series---one of the first cities to go flying away was "Gravitogorsk", punning on the (real) city of Magnitogorsk. The other was in _The Night Shapes_, where a Latin teacher had an affair with a student. "Together they studied all the conjugations of _amo_". > Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed all > along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up I have no evidence either way as to whether Blish invented it, so your original assumption may be right. Blish's sense of humor was sufficeintly recondite that he could have invented it himself. And now that you mention spindizzies, I finally get the "Come fly with me" remark. BTW, the mathematical derivation that Blish quotes for the spindizzies first appeared in an article in Astounding Science Fiction (sorry I can't give you the date it appeared). It was not Blish's own invention, unless Blish were playing a pointless practical joke by publishing under a pen name. Now for an interesting piece of Blish trivia. His "Year 2018" contains an acid and unflattering portrait of an FBI director who is obviously modelled on J. Edgar Hoover---then alive and at the height of his reputation. Randall Garrett wrote a potboiler "The Hunting Lodge" which among other tired stereotypes had a benign and farsighted FBI director. This says a lot about those two writers, doesn't it? Not quite, because Blish later wrote about Garrett, "there is imbedded in Mr. Garrett's several million words of trash one superb story ("The Hunting Lodge")". (William Atheling, Jr (pseudonym for James Blish) "The Issue at Hand", Chicago: Advent Publisher, 1964, page 31n.) - Jim Landau (feeling very spun-dizzy for not understanding your joke) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Jul 20 17:36:02 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:36:02 -0700 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <95.1fbe7451.2a6a45bb@aol.com> Message-ID: I must have been absent from school that day :) Thanks for filling me in. The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fritz Juengling > In a message dated 7/19/02 6:43:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > > I thought the city so nice they named it twice was Walla Walla. > Every Pacific Northwesterner knows it's Walla > Walla--that's exactly what I > thought when I saw the subject line. > Fritz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:01:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:01:10 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > >Ed Keer said: >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > ~~~~~ >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. >A. Murie How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym of "berry". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:03:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:03:09 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0700 7/20/02, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I must have been absent from school that day :) Thanks for filling >me in. > >The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon >as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. > Yup, once each by the twin naming-wallahs visiting from India. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 18:04:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:04:54 EDT Subject: "Dress like whores" Message-ID: In a message dated 07/17/2002 1:23:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings from Kiev...There's a Ukrainian boxer who wants to challenge > Lennox Lewis, so maybe Ukrainian girls really can knock you out...A fellow > traveler complained that they all dress like whores. In a message dated 07/17/2002 2:32:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > I was in Vilnius a couple weeks ago, and I heard Lithuanian women at the > conference complaining that their local fashion choices seemed to be to > dress like Soviet-era grandmothers or like whores. I am surprised that a philologist of Barry Popik's experience would let the phrase "dress like whores" pass without comment. Prostitution is, among other things, a business, and as a business it requires advertising. Protitutes can be divided into two classes thusly: 1) the so-called "streetwalkers" who do their own advertising 2) the ones (e.g. crib whores and call girls) who depend on management to perform advertising A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. Consider the following 3,000-year-old account "[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." For a more modern example, in Moscow circa 1970 whores displayed themselves by writing their price on the soles of their shoes. If the women in an area dressed "like whores", then the streetwalker-type whores would dress differently, so as to "stand out in the crowd" (i.e. be recognizable). The above is an example of non-verbal communication. For example, it is only convention that jackboots and microskirt, as worn by Julia Roberts in the movie "Pretty Woman", denotes a streetwalker. Were it not for convention, she could be mistaken for a woman who repairs water mains for the Municipal Utility District, or althernatively for someone about to go fly fishing. It is interesting that type 2) whores do not dress "like whores". A gril in a "house" dresses in whatever the local style for house whores is, or in the low-price-due-to-volume establishments, for convenience in undressing. Eliot Ness, describing a raid on a speakeasy/brothel, commented that the prostitutes "wore the komonos of their profession". Call girls, oddly, frequently make a point of NOT dressing like whores, because they need to travel to their customers WITHOUT attracting the attention of police officers and hotel detectives. (The book "Mayflower Madam" contains a lengthy discussion of how the call girls dressed---in this case, with taste, since this was a high-class operation.) An incidental note: "house" as in "house of prostitution" or "disorderly house" is a misnomer, since there have existed mobile whorehouses that operate out of the backs of trucks. As for "laying/lying policeman", when the New York Police Department decided to put the Mayflower Madam out of business, they had three police officers pose as customers so as to be able to testify in court as the offenses observed. One of the three, uh, "blew" it by actually having sex with the call girl. He was, quite literally, a "laying policeman." > My tour guide is a 20-year old college student (mathematics). I asked > about slang, and, as I sometimes get as a response, there is "no slang" in > the Ukraine. For example, outside this hotel is the bear with the Olympic > belt (a symbol of the 1980 Olympics). I asked if the bear had a name. "Bear, > " he said. If memory serves, the 1980 Olympic bear was named "Misha". - James A. Landau systems engineer and sometimes communications engineer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:22:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:09 AM -0700 7/20/02, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: >For me, born and raised in NYC, Craig rhymes with vague and Greg >rhymes with leg. I also distinguish between Mary/merry/marry. I >wonder, though, why Gary rhymes with marry and not Mary. > >Rima This one puzzled me too at some point, when I tried to discover my own vowel rules, for a dialect very similar to Rima's (must have been in intro phonology). I think I concluded that underlyingly for me the name was "Garry", even though it could be spelled either way. (After all, Garry Moore was the archetype Garry.) And of course that makes it rhyme with other "closed syllable" -rry names (Larry, Barry, Harry) and words (carry, marry, tarry, parry). This doesn't actually work, though, because I'm pretty sure "Cary" (as in Grant) is always spelled with one -r-, but it too rhymed with "marry" (and "carry") rather than with "Mary" or the "airy" words. Definitely lexical (i.e. idiosyncratic), and not particularly stable; I now go either way on "Cary" and "Gary". Larry (rhyming with Gary and Cary) P.S. I'm quite sure that if I were singing the song from "The Music Man", I'd sing it with my /ae/ and not my /eh/ vowel, which is maybe why I avoid singing it: GARRY, Indi- ana, GARRY Indiana, GARRY Indi- ana, Let me say it once again [No, I don't usually spell it that way, I just pronounce it as if I did] From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:34:59 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:34:59 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: <18d.b08778a.2a6b0046@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:04 PM -0400 7/20/02, James A. Landau wrote: >A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they >are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her >to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. >Consider the following 3,000-year-old account > >"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." > Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following the law as best she could. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 18:59:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:59:02 -0400 Subject: "meanderthal" Message-ID: An intermittently blend, and evidently not a brand-spanking-new word, but still relatively new. I first encountered it in a piece in the Times earlier this week... The New York Times July 16, 2002, Tuesday SECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk HEADLINE: Think You Own the Sidewalk?; Etiquette by New York Pedestrians Is Showing a Strain BYLINE: By MARC SANTORA The average New York City fast walker does not have to get stuck behind a pack of mall walkers to grow sour. A single person moving at a slow clip-clop can be enough. There is even a word for this slowpoke: meanderthal. An Internet dictionary of slang defines him as "an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of another individual who is in a bit of a hurry." ====== The first Nexis hits are a couple of Herb Caen columns (1993, 1994) that use the word in a different sense: just a man (i.e. Caen) who likes to meander (e.g. past the Condomania store in S.F. with a sign advertising "Condoms Half Off"). There's also a mid-90's musical group with the same name (Meanderthal, that is, not Condomania). But the earliest relevant Nexis hit is: The Atlanta Journal and Constitution March 2, 2001 Friday, Home Edition SECTION: Features; Pg. 2E HEADLINE: eLIVING BYLINE: Jeffry Scott ... meanderthal (n) an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of another individual who is in a hurry SUBMITTED TO THE PEOPLE'S DICTIONARY BY PETER BOJKOV OF NEW YORK CITY ========= Does Bojkov get coining credit or was it already around before this? larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Jul 20 19:01:33 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:01:33 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Lord slew Dorothy Parker's parrot for seed-spilling? dInIs >At 2:04 PM -0400 7/20/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>A streetwalker does not wear garish makeup and revealing clothes because they >>are sexy per se. Rather she wears whatever the local convention is for her >>to wear, since her clothing/makeup/demeanor etc. are for recognition. >>Consider the following 3,000-year-old account >> >>"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >>entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >>to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." >> >Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >the law as best she could. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 20:04:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:04:17 -0400 Subject: "Dress like whores" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The Lord slew Dorothy Parker's parrot for seed-spilling? > >dInIs Not, I maintain, a possible inference from the parenthetical below. Nor, however, is it really fair to speak of "onanism" in reference to anything other than the mortal sin of declining to impregnate the widow of one's brother. >>Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >>made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >>annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >>The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >>just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >>law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >>Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >>Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >>father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >>the law as best she could. >> >>larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Jul 20 19:52:09 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:52:09 -0500 Subject: Tamar, Onan, Judah, Shelah (was: "Dress like whores") Message-ID: If I may just provide a few details: Judah (one of Jacob's sons) selected a wife for Er, his firstborn. But Er died, leaving Tamar a widow. Judah then told Er's brother Onan to marry Tamar and produce a child with her. Onan, practicing a bit of estate planning, "spilled his seed" rather than produce an heir in his brother's name. Big mistake. Exit Onan. Judah then told Tamar to wait until his youngest son Shelah was grown, whereupon she would get to marry him. He grew up, but no marriage occurred. Tamar, knowing full well that she was being cheated out of the opportunity for motherhood, played the role of a harlot and fooled Judah into impregnating her. This was a bit unconventional, but even Judah later realized he had acted incorrectly and Tamar was justified in what she had done. The custom of having a brother marry his deceased brother's wife made very good sense to the ancient Hebrews. Producing children played a key role in their culture, and it made no sense at all to have a young woman of child-bearing age spending years unable to produce children simply because she was widowed. Hence the order to Onan to do his duty by his people and religion by marrying Tamar and producing children. In my Etymology class I devote a lecture to understanding the rationale behind various Hebrew names (e.g., Michael, Reuben, Joel, Isaac, Joseph), and part of the rationale is the great importance of fertility in ancient times. Tamar fits very well into this theme. Gerald Cohen >> At 2:34 PM -0400 7/20/02, Laurence Horn wrote: >>"[she] covered herself with her veil, and wrapped herselof, and sat in the >>entrance of Enaim [i.e. at a crossroads]...When Judah saw her, he thought her >>to be a harlot; for she had covered her face." >> >Hey, I recognize this--it's part of the Onan story, which somehow >made it onto the handout for my "spitten image" talk a couple of ADS >annual meetings ago. (Genesis 38, if anyone wants to track it down.) >The lady in question, Tamar, wasn't really working as a harlot, she >just wanted to have her brother-in-law's baby according to levirate >law, but Onan wouldn't oblige (spilling his seed on the ground, like >Dorothy Parker's parrot of the same name, and getting slain by the >Lord for his impertinence), so she had to settle for her >father-in-law's baby instead. Not really her fault, just following >the law as best she could. > >larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 20 20:34:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:34:18 -0400 Subject: Tamar, Onan, Judah, Shelah (was: "Dress like whores") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > If I may just provide a few details: > > Judah (one of Jacob's sons) selected a wife for Er, his firstborn. >But Er died, er, yeah, but more explicitly: "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him." Doesn't say why--maybe he hesitated too often. Well, it does get the plot moving. > leaving Tamar a widow. Judah then told Er's brother Onan >to marry Tamar and produce a child with her. Onan, practicing a bit >of estate planning, "spilled his seed" rather than produce an heir in >his brother's name. Big mistake. Exit Onan. > > Judah then told Tamar to wait until his youngest son Shelah was >grown, whereupon she would get to marry him. He grew up, but no >marriage occurred. >Tamar, knowing full well that she was being cheated out of the >opportunity for motherhood, played the role of a harlot and fooled >Judah into impregnating her. > > This was a bit unconventional, but even Judah later realized he >had acted incorrectly and Tamar was justified in what she had done. > > The custom of having a brother marry his deceased brother's wife >made very good sense to the ancient Hebrews. And other cultures have similar practices (cf. niyoga: in the Vedic tradition, the doctrine allowing a woman whose husband is impotent, sterile, or dead to form a temporary sexual union with another man), but the levirate tradition has another motivation (below). >Producing children >played a key role in their culture, and it made no sense at all to >have a young woman of child-bearing age spending years unable to >produce children simply because she was widowed. Hence the order to >Onan to do his duty by his people and religion by marrying Tamar and >producing children. All true, but I argue in my paper that there's another motive that explains why if Tamar couldn't get Omar to fulfill his obligation under levirate (i.e. brother-in-law) law, it made sense for her to seduce Judah rather than some random stranger who took her fancy (as in the niyoga practice mentioned above). That is, Onan's children would have passed on (some of) the family DNA, given the genes he shared with brother Er. And absent that possibility, Tamar (intuitively?) recognized that her next best bet for maintaining her husband's line would then be via her father-in-law, Judah. This then connects to the "spitten image" as a marker of paternity, which is why in the Deuteronomy version of the levirate law (Deut. 25: 7-10) a man who opts out of his obligation a la Onan gets his face spat in by his sister-in-law. Note the reference to "perpetuating one's brother's name in Israel". =========== And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the elders, and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.' Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, 'I do not wish to take her,' then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, 'So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.' And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off. =========== Well, it beats being slain by the Lord and becoming a namesake for Dorothy Parker's parrot. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Jul 20 21:01:31 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:01:31 EDT Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: In a message dated 7/20/2002 1:59:58 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > >Ed Keer said: >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > ~~~~~ >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. >A. Murie How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym of "berry". >> BURY pronounced to rhyme with FURRY is common in New Jersey and probably elsewhere. The Midlands pronunciation of BURY in England was (is?) a rhyme with FURRY also, which I assume accounts for the historical variability in the US as well. The Old English ancestor of the modern word was BYRGAN, with a front rounded vowel, which unrounded in various ways in Middle English, depending on the geography. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 22:12:44 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:12:44 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <191.a1b1ec5.2a6b29ab@aol.com> Message-ID: At 05:01 PM 7/20/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/20/2002 1:59:58 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > ><< At 11:43 AM -0400 7/20/02, sagehen wrote: > > >Ed Keer said: > >>>Actually, I didn't. I do keep my Marys distinct from > >>>my marries. It's just that I don't distinguish merry > >>>and Murray or ferry and furry. > > ~~~~~ > >Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've > >always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" > >--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year > >she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing > >that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah > >Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. > >A. Murie > >How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation >for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym >of "berry". >> > >BURY pronounced to rhyme with FURRY is common in New Jersey and probably >elsewhere. The Midlands pronunciation of BURY in England was (is?) a rhyme >with FURRY also, which I assume accounts for the historical variability in >the US as well. The Old English ancestor of the modern word was BYRGAN, with >a front rounded vowel, which unrounded in various ways in Middle English, >depending on the geography. I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my parents' generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably through schooling in "proper" English. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 22:44:44 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:44:44 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020720010142.03040e50@199.93.70.138> Message-ID: Labov's TELSUR map shows laxing before /l/ to be pushing into Ohio from both east and west (and somewhat less so from south of the Ohio River, as I recall). My Dayton students have it, and I hear "available" as well as both "sell" and "sale" with /E/ in SE Ohio. I frequently hear laxing before /g/ also, but it may not be in the local speech yet; I hear it from students who are probably from outside the region, based on other features in their sound systems (university radio announcers and the like). Specifically, I've heard 'Craig' as 'Kregg' often, and The Hague as 'the Hegg' at least twice. I doubt there's confusion with 'Greg'. At 01:09 AM 7/20/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On 7/19/2002 14:21, Laurence Horn wrote the following: > >>This last is redolent of Pittsburgh (and maybe cheese-steak eaters to >>the east, whose "Iggles" sometimes take the filled against >>Pittsburgh's "Stillers") > >Born and raised in Pgh, never say [fIld] for nor [Igl] for , >and yet and have rhymed for me since birth. Or shortly >thereafter. > >Anyway, what makes you think [i]>[I] conflation is related to [ei]>[E] >conflation (at least, [ei] is what I assume you hypercorrective types have >in )? > >Cheers, >Scott > >_____________________________________________________________ >Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator > >sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com >http://www.spanishtranslator.org >_____________________________________________________________ >"Patriotism is the principle that will justify the training of wholesale >murderers." > -- Leo Tolstoy From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Jul 20 23:15:03 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:15:03 -0400 Subject: The Pierian spring In-Reply-To: <151.111acf21.2a69e681@aol.com> Message-ID: At 06:02 PM 7/19/2002 -0400, Jim Landau wrote: >In a message dated 07/19/2002 4:09:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > > > BTW, as a native Minnesotan, I have the same three-way split in the test > > words that you do, assuming you have "color" with a wedge (or stressed > > schwa). If you mean /U/, as in my Northern "pull," that's a different > > matter. But our mixed use of symbols on this list IS a problem. > >Having no training in phonetics, I know better than to touch the Pierian >spring of IPA. That's why I have been giving rhymes, in hopes of not being >ambiguous. > >For me the first syllable of "color" rhymes with cull, dull, gull, hull, >lull, mull, null, sully, and skull. If that doesn't help, then it is the >vowel as in Hun, Khun, Kun, nun, run, sun, ton, won, and of course pun. >Pronouncing "color" as /'cUl-'r/ (that is, with the /U/ of pull, wood, good, >etc.) sounds very odd to my ears. I assumed you meant "color" as in cull, dull, gull, etc.; I have this vowel too (not so SE Ohio, where it usually rhymes with my Northern "collar"). >I really have no idea what the usual pronunciation of "wash" might be in >Louisville, Kentucky. Obvously my family or somebody I learned from said >/warsh/ with a vowel somewhere near that of "arm". Living here in the >Northeast, I'm often asked where my Southern accent is. I think I have faint >traces of such, particullarly in the word "Southern", which I pronounce as >/suth-'n/ (/u/ as in, well, color), dropping most or all of the /r/. Now, >if I drop a fair number of /r/s, why should I insert a superfluous /r/ in >"wash"? Intrusive /r/ here in SE Ohio would produce a vowel as in "warm," not "arm" (as others noted too). From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Sun Jul 21 03:47:38 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:47:38 -0700 Subject: "meanderthal" Message-ID: Laurence: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: "meanderthal" > An intermittently blend, and evidently not a brand-spanking-new word, > but still relatively new. I first encountered it in a piece in the > Times earlier this week... > > > The New York Times > July 16, 2002, Tuesday > SECTION: Section B; Page 1; Column 2; Metropolitan Desk > HEADLINE: Think You Own the Sidewalk?; Etiquette by New York > Pedestrians Is Showing a Strain > > BYLINE: By MARC SANTORA > The average New York City fast walker does not have to get stuck > behind a pack of mall walkers to grow sour. A single person moving at > a slow clip-clop can be enough. There is even a word for this > slowpoke: meanderthal. An Internet dictionary of slang defines him > as "an annoying individual moving slowly and aimlessly in front of > another individual who is in a bit of a hurry." A couple of years ago, I was doing a search for certain kinds of websites, and attempted to type "neanderthal" to get some hits. I was off by one letter, and came up with some "Meanderthal" websites! I'm not making this up! I don't know when this word was first coined, but it's been around for *at least* 2-3 years. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:25:08 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:25:08 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 2002 to 20 Jul 2002 (#2002-176) In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Date sent: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:00:11 -0400 Send reply to: American Dialect Society From: Automatic digest processor Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 2002 to 20 Jul 2002 (#2002- 176) To: Recipients of ADS-L digests > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:58:11 EDT > From: Fritz Juengling > Subject: Re: Kregg vs. Craig > > In a message dated 7/19/02 3:37:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > > > I think this one might be lexical. I'm pretty sure I have a lax > > vowel in Craig but definitely tense in 'vague' and 'Hague'. Maybe > > Craig is influenced by Greg. (Not that there's anything wrong with > > that.) > > When I was in grad school, I had two buddies named Greg, one from > Indiana and the other from Utah. Our prof was speaking to the Hoosier > one day and called him grEg which he corrected to Grayg, i.e. [gre:g]. > The other Greg agreed with that pronunciation. Both seemed a little > put off with 'grEg.' I have always rhymed Greg, leg, egg, beg with > Craig--with [e:] or even [ei], definitely not [E]. For me, egg and leg don't rhyme with Greg and beg; they do rhyme with Haig. (I'm from Ulster County NY, in the Hudson Valley Dialect area. Rod Serling -- born in Broome County, which adjoins Ulster County -- has no accent to my ear. So I can truthfully say that my dialect is on the original Twilight Zone.) From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:40:49 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:40:49 -0500 Subject: The city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) > > In a message dated 07/19/2002 7:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > > > OK, where did you get the expression "The City With Two Names Twice" > > for > > NYC? I grew up there, and the only source I know for it is James > > Blish's "Cities in Flight" series (4 sf novels). > > The only place I ever heard "two names twice" was in Blish's _Earthman > Come Home_, which is the third volume of the Cities in Flight series. My memory says "What city has the same name twice?" > Blish was not much given to inserting wisecracks in his writing, I recall, from Cities in Flight, a substance called polybathroomflourine because of its hexagonal structure. [For those who don't get the reference -- hexagonal bathroom tiles used to be very common, at least in New York City.) I suspect there are other wisecracks which I missed. so I > guessed that it was an old New York riddle that Blish (who I think > worked in Madison Avenue) had heard. Blish was a native New Yorker. He did indeed work in the advertising industry. > There are only 2 Blish wisecracks that I can remember. Both are > obscure puns, made even more obscure by not being in English. One was > from the Cities in Flight series---one of the first cities to go > flying away was "Gravitogorsk", punning on the (real) city of > Magnitogorsk. The other was in _The Night Shapes_, where a Latin > teacher had an affair with a student. "Together they studied all the > conjugations of _amo_". > > > Since I don't know the expression from any other source, I assumed > > all along -- evidently wrongly -- that Blish had made it up > > I have no evidence either way as to whether Blish invented it, so your > original assumption may be right. Blish's sense of humor was > sufficeintly recondite that he could have invented it himself. > From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Jul 21 05:52:57 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:52:57 -0500 Subject: more on James Blish In-Reply-To: <20020721040013.2284E5345@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:30:36 EDT > From: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Horsethieves (was Matrushka; Hryvna: more) > >> Now for an interesting piece of Blish trivia. His "Year 2018" > contains an acid and unflattering portrait of an FBI director who is > obviously modelled on J. Edgar Hoover---then alive and at the height > of his reputation. Randall Garrett wrote a potboiler "The Hunting > Lodge" which among other tired stereotypes had a benign and farsighted > FBI director. I'm not sure "benign" is the word for a man who's ordering the killing of near-immortals with too much political power. Farsighted, yes -- he says that he himself will need to be eliminated at some future time. > This says a lot about those two writers, doesn't it? > Not quite, because Blish later wrote about Garrett, "there is imbedded > in Mr. Garrett's several million words of trash one superb story ("The > Hunting Lodge")". (William Atheling, Jr (pseudonym for James Blish) > "The Issue at Hand", Chicago: Advent Publisher, 1964, page 31n.) From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG Sun Jul 21 09:58:33 2002 From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 05:58:33 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/20/2002 08:58, Dennis R. Preston wrote the following: >What makes me think /E/-/e/ conflation is related to /I/-/i/ >conflation (and /u/-/U/ as well), at least before /l/, is the fact >that, at least in our tapes of people from such areas... Of course -- the old gather-empirical-data-and-analyze-it trick! Gets 'em every time! Cheers, Scott _____________________________________________________________ Scott Sadowsky -- Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com http://www.spanishtranslator.org _____________________________________________________________ "During World War II, Congress officially recognized the pledge and changed its accompanying salute from an outstretched arm that resembled Hitler?s favored salute to the current right hand over the heart." -- Time, January 2002 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 13:44:31 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:44:31 -0400 Subject: The city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: <3D3A0311.11411.26D324@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Dan Goodman wrote: #I recall, from Cities in Flight, a substance called #polybathroomflourine because of its hexagonal structure. [For those uo #who don't get the reference -- hexagonal bathroom tiles used to be #very common, at least in New York City.) I suspect there are other #wisecracks which I missed. An explosive with the interesting property of blasting out in a plane, so that it could effectively cut through something without causing significant damage on either side of the cut. To me, the description of the molecular structure and the name immediately evoked the bathrooms in my grandparents' apartment, where I lived for much of my childhood. -- Mark A. Mandel From mssmith at BOONE.NET Sun Jul 21 13:58:23 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 09:58:23 -0400 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see this term as insulting and derogative. What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? Susan Dean Gilbert mssmith at boone.net Susan Dean Gilbert mssmith at boone.net Go to your bosom Knock there Ask your heart what it doth know -Wm. Shakespeare From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 21 14:22:57 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:22:57 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: Susan Dean Gilbert said: >> Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see this term as insulting and derogative. What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? Susan Dean Gilbert << The answer is emphatically No -- _picnic_ entered English through a German term for a European custom of the 18th cent. which in French was called _pique-nique_. The French rhyming combination is said to be of unknown origin by etyms I've checked (SOED, OED, RHDU). The "pick" origin theory is false, as the expression entered English from foreign sources. However, as a folk etym, the belief may be widespread. It reminds me of the false analysis of _niggardly_ that was such a controversy a few years ago. Similar is the supposed Native American origin of _OK_, which Woodrow Wilson championed, but which Allen Walker Read showed to be totally false. Of course, lots of folks don't let etymology stand in the way of their story or their ax-grinding. Arguments based on etymology are often widely ignored. Frank Abate From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 14:23:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Susan Dean Gilbert wrote: #Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida #B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. #Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to #be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of #"picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat #around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see #this term as insulting and derogative. If _Smithsonian_ published that without comment, they ought to be ashamed of themselves for spreading falsehood and promoting ignorance. It takes no deeper research than the Oxford English Dictionary to find the word traced back to about 1800 "as an English institution" [i.e., in England -- not the US], to 1748 in English with reference to foreign countries, and to French in 1692!! I will give only the earliest citation: 1748 Chesterfield, Letter to Son (in Germany, apparently Berlin): 29 Oct., I like the description of your _Pic-nic_; where, I take it for granted, that your cards are only to break the formality of a circle. The definition for this period is "A fashionable social entertainment in which each person present contributed a share of the provisions". -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 21 14:41:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:41:46 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Susan Dean Gilbert wrote: > >#Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece on Ida >#B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of lynching. >#Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic is believed to >#be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the horrific practice of >#"picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching him for sport while people sat >#around and ate lunch. She says that today many African Americans see >#this term as insulting and derogative. > >If _Smithsonian_ published that without comment, they ought to be >ashamed of themselves for spreading falsehood and promoting ignorance. >It takes no deeper research than the Oxford English Dictionary to find >the word traced back to about 1800 "as an English institution" [i.e., in >England -- not the US], to 1748 in English with reference to foreign >countries, and to French in 1692!! I will give only the earliest >citation: > >1748 Chesterfield, Letter to Son (in Germany, apparently Berlin): > 29 Oct., I like the description of your _Pic-nic_; where, I take it for >granted, that your cards are only to break the formality of a circle. > >The definition for this period is "A fashionable social entertainment in >which each person present contributed a share of the provisions". > This is one of the classic etymythologies, which--like other myths--refuses to die because it satisfies a cultural need. Here's a bit more from the files (2000) http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.htm from a posting circulated on the Internet in 1999 (note the reference to the Smithsonian): ===================== This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute. Although not taught in American learning institutions and literature, it is noted in most Black history professional circles and literature that the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering. There would be music and a "picnic." ("Nic" being the white acronym for "nigger.") Scenes of this were depicted in the movie "Rosewood." We should choose to use the word "barbecue" or "outing" instead of the word "picnic." Please forward this e-mail to all of your family and friends and let's educate our people. ==================== Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): Origins: Specious etymologies seem to be all the rage of late, and this wild claim about the word 'picnic' fits that trend. You'll be heartened to know 'picnic' has nothing to do with lynching Blacks (or anyone else, for that matter). The e-mailed "little known fact" quoted above is a hoax. And a mean-spirited one at that. The first documented appearance of the word 'picnic' in the English language occurred in 1748, almost 30 years before the United States of America was even a country. Our current word for alfresco dining comes from the 17th-century French word 'piquenique,' a term for casual indoor dining wherein each guest brought a dish to add to the repast, or the German 'picknick.' (These days, we call such a meal a 'potluck supper.') As for where the French got it from, it likely was created from joining the common form of the verb 'piquer' (meaning "to pick" or "peck") and a nonsense rhyming word coined to fit the first half of this new term. By the 19th century, 'picnic' had come to mean what it does today -- an outdoor meal wherein the food is hauled by the diners to a pastoral spot where it is shared in an atmosphere of casual dining. At no time did the execution of anyone play any part in how the word came to us. One has to wonder at the workings of the mind of someone who'd invent this spurious "pick a nigger" derivation and then set it loose on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is -- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an "outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY decided to publicize the From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Jul 21 16:45:55 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:45:55 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn quoted, in discussing the etymythology from "pick": >> from a posting circulated on the Internet in 1999 (note the reference to the Smithsonian): ===================== This e-mail is being sent to you as a public service announcement and as information in the form of a little known Black History Fact. This information can also be found in the African American Archives at the Smithsonian Institute. Although not taught in American learning institutions and literature, it is noted in most Black history professional circles and literature that the origin of the term "picnic" derives from the acts of lynching African-Americans. The word "picnic" is rooted from the whole theme of "Pick A Nigger." This is where individuals would "pic" a Black person to lynch and make this into a family gathering. There would be music and a "picnic." ("Nic" being the white acronym for "nigger.") Scenes of this were depicted in the movie "Rosewood." We should choose to use the word "barbecue" or "outing" instead of the word "picnic." Please forward this e-mail to all of your family and friends and let's educate our people. << This reminds me of the Black History "fact" that Cleopatra was black. She was, in actual fact, a Greek whose family hailed from Macedonia originally, and was the dynasty that took charge in Egypt after its conquest by Alexander the Great and the later rule of his Ptolemaic successors. But still one sees Cleopatra depicted here and there as black, and spoken about as such. One noted such occurrence was in a video of Michael Jackson's -- not the usual sort of place for history, but no doubt very widely circulated and remembered still. After that, it is hard to pry this false notion out of the heads of many who have not studied this period of Egyptian history with some perspective and from contemporary sources. Frank Abate From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 16:51:47 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:51:47 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001d01c230be$ae90cd40$4b585c40@D7C6TL11> Message-ID: Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this particular passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is portrayed below is just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. Picnic is mentioned only once, and then only while writing about crowds gathering for a lynching, nothing about the etymology or racial connotations of the word. It's not in the online version of the article, either. I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it pickynicky--no idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are pickynicky parks, sounds fun). As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in pickaninny (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a foreign word, the Spanish peque?o (small child) , but which, unlike picnic, has a long history of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. Of course, Ida Wells out Rosa-Parked Rosa Parks by refusing to give up her seat on a Tennessee train in the 1880s. Her later crusade after the lynching of a friend's husband was the first organized public outcry against lynchings. But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather narrow view of the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many westerns. While I understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a person (with overt racial overtone outside of western movies), the article uses it for ANY extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a lot of terrible ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come across the term used outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled projection? |o| Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece |o| on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of |o| lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic |o| is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the |o| horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching |o| him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says |o| that today many African Americans see this term as insulting |o| and derogative. |o| What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did |o| picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? rhk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 16:59:34 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 12:59:34 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: #Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this #particular passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is #portrayed below is just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. [That's off my chest. End rant.] #I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the #British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it #pickynicky--no idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are #pickynicky parks, sounds fun). Hawai`ian is strictly (C)V, with no codas, so pikiniki would be a logical Hawai`ianization of English picnic; no French influence required. #As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in #pickaninny (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a #foreign word, the Spanish peque?o (small child) , but which, unlike #picnic, has a long history of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. -- Mark A. Mandel From mssmith at BOONE.NET Sun Jul 21 17:42:51 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Picnic Mea Culpa Message-ID: Ok. I re-read the article and even did a word search and I couldn't find it either. Weird. I could have sworn I read that information there. Maybe it was another journal. My apologies to Smithsonian and to the author. Susan Dean Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick H Kennerly" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Picnic > Read that same article this morning and wasn't struck by this particular > passage, so I've read it twice more just now. What is portrayed below is > just not in my copy of the Smithsonian magazine. Picnic is mentioned only > once, and then only while writing about crowds gathering for a lynching, > nothing about the etymology or racial connotations of the word. It's not in > the online version of the article, either. > > I believe the French form is piquenique (delightfully, in Hawaii, the > British gave them the term picnic but the locals pronounce it pickynicky--no > idea how they spell it, though--and the parks are pickynicky parks, sounds > fun). > > As long as we're in the neighborhood, I might as well throw in pickaninny > (and it's various spellings) which also derives from a foreign word, the > Spanish peque?o (small child) , but which, unlike picnic, has a long history > of offensiveness in the US and Caribbean. > > Of course, Ida Wells out Rosa-Parked Rosa Parks by refusing to give up her > seat on a Tennessee train in the 1880s. Her later crusade after the > lynching of a friend's husband was the first organized public outcry against > lynchings. > > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather narrow view of > the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many westerns. While I > understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a person (with overt > racial overtone outside of western movies), the article uses it for ANY > extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible > dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a lot of terrible > ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come across the term used > outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And > who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled > projection? > > > |o| Last month's Smithsonian(July, pp.70-77) had a wonderful piece > |o| on Ida B. Wells and her advocacy for families and victims of > |o| lynching. Clarissa Myrick-Harris mentioned that the word picnic > |o| is believed to be a abbreviated or truncated synthesis of the > |o| horrific practice of "picking" a "ni_ _er" and then lynching > |o| him for sport while people sat around and ate lunch. She says > |o| that today many African Americans see this term as insulting > |o| and derogative. > |o| What is the collective wisdom of the group on this one? Did > |o| picnic come from this twisted originating matrix? > > > rhk > From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Jul 21 17:40:02 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It's not in the online version of the article, either. The online version is an abstract of the article, not the article itself. > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a rather > narrow view of the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too > many westerns. While I understand it to be an extralegal mob > action to hang a person (with overt racial overtone outside of > western movies), the article uses it for ANY extralegal mob > killing based on race, making the terrible dragging-behind-a- > pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were a > lot of terrible ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never > come across the term used outside of a hanging. What's the > etymology of lynch/lynched/lynching? And who was Lynch? > or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a right-angled > projection? The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is that it refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American Revolution. The earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to him. Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named Charles Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) for presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American Revolution. Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. The racial connotation is not original, but rather arose in the post-Civil War South. And as for metaphorical use of the term, Clarence Thomas referred to the Anita Hill hearings in Sep. 1991 before the Senate Judiciary cmte. as a "high-tech lynching for uppity blacks." I'm sure he wasn't the first to use it metaphorically. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 17:49:57 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:49:57 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the |o| [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] |o| ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, |o| learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. |o| [That's off my chest. End rant.] Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. After all, the Smithsonian magazine article in question begins with mention of a touring photo exhibition called Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America. Now, I haven't seen this exhibition but from the archival pictures I have seen from late 19th century American newspapers (and not just southern newspapers--remember that Kokomo, Indiana, was home of the second rising of the KKK), white folk picnicking at hangings in general and black lynchings in particular was not uncommon, so it's not too much of a leap of imagination to get from whites picnicking to picking a nigger to lynch--or to at least associating picnics and lynchings in the minds of blacks. Certainly oral histories of elderly southerner--both black and white in this particular case--like the one below from a special presentation called Remembering Jim Crow, make the association between whites picnicking and black lynchings, so it wasn't too long ago. http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/remembering/transcript.html Interestingly, I imagine that there's a lot emotional truth in this new use of Picnic, even if it's historically inaccurate. Unfortunately, I also imagine that it won't be long before we read lurid newspaper confessions where, after a brutal murder, the group was out on a picnic. rhk From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 21 18:00:51 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:00:51 -0700 Subject: Lynch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first came across the broader meaning of lynch in Japanese where rinchi is used that way. Webster's 1913 ed. (http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=lynch) says Lynch (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Lynched (?); p. pr. & vb. n. Lynching.] [See Note under Lynch law.] To inflict punishment upon, especially death, without the forms of law, as when a mob captures and hangs a suspected person. See Lynch law. In the second edition, the definition of inflicting punishment is dropped: to kill (an accused person) by mob action and without lawful trial, as by hanging, usually in defiance of local authority. Since the first meaning is being used today, perhaps this word has widened and narrowed in scope over the years, or its actual range of meaning gone unnoticed for several decades. My American Heritage third edition does not include the wider scope. How about newer dictionaries? Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Rick H Kennerly > But this article made me aware that I carry with me a > rather narrow view of > the term lynching, shaped, I suppose, by too many > westerns. While I > understand it to be an extralegal mob action to hang a > person (with overt > racial overtone outside of western movies), the article > uses it for ANY > extralegal mob killing based on race, making the terrible > dragging-behind-a-pickup-truck death of James Byrd up in > Jasper, Texas, a > lynching by this standard. While I was aware there were > a lot of terrible > ways for a mob to kill a black, I'd just never come > across the term used > outside of a hanging. What's the etymology of > lynch/lynched/lynching? And > who was Lynch? or does it derive from Linch--a ledge or a > right-angled > projection? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 21 20:50:07 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:50:07 -0400 Subject: No food in the Ukraine Message-ID: Greetings again from Odessa. I have an eight-hour ride to Yalta tomorrow (Monday)...There's not much to see in Odessa besides the steps and the opera house. NO FOOD IN THE UKRAINE Still no English-language Ukrainian cookbook available for sale anywhere. Nothing is easy. There are three people on this tour--me and a couple. Today in Odessa I had two tour guides--the 20-year-old "no slang in the Ukraine" student and a local tour guide (a woman who has lived here a long time). Despite this, I couldn't get any help getting anything done. For example, the student knows that I like to look at an English language menu. We're at a restaurant. I told him again. I told the other guide. I told the student again. Outside the restaurant: "Did you ask for an English language menu for me?" "Yes." Pause. There's no other answer. "WELL, WHERE WAS IT?" "They wouldn't give it to you." Pause. Like pulling teeth with this guide. "Why wouldn't they give it to me?" "They don't want you to copy from the menu," was his answer. "You just ask for a menu! And they give it to you!" That scene was pretty bad, but not worse than when we went to the Odessa library. The kid said that I needed to show them my passport. My passport was taken by the hotel--as he knew! The director was off on Sunday; did I have an appointment with the director? No, I didn't speak with the Ukrainian library director! I've never been here before! There are two native Ukrainians here! You go in, you check to see the oldest cookbooks they have in the card catalog, and you walk back out and tell me! Does that happen? Of course not! I get the phone number of the Odessa library director. I can call him myself. JEWISH ODESSA Odessa began in the 1790s. It was made a duty-free port. Catherine wanted it populated quickly, and they took everybody from all over. Jews came there quite early; a hospital was established in 1806. By the 1910s, there were 65 synagogues. My local tour guide said that Odessa might have been one-third Jewish. Over 65,000 Jews from Odessa were killed by the Nazis. I walked into the local synagogue. No one spoke English very well. I asked an easy question--any English-language books on the history of Jewish life in Odessa or the Ukraine? No. My tour guide said there's a book called ODESSA DAYS in Ukrainian, but I can't locate that, either. So much for tracing "bagels" in this place. UKRAINIAN FOOD & COOKBOOKS The cookbook problem: the earliest Ukrainian cookbook in ANY language in the LOC or the NYPL is from 1951. The popular TRADITIONAL UKRAINIAN COOKERY (1957) by Surella Stechichin is widely available, but surely there's something before 1950, before 1900, before 1850? In the Ukraine? Ukrainian food influenced America not only in New York City, but also northwestern North Dakota. The MERCER COUNTY HISTORICAL SOCIETY COOKBOOK (Google that) has a variety of Ukrainian foods. There's a pocket of Odessa immigrants in North Dakota! The best web site I could find is: www.ukraine-today.com/culture/food/food.shtml I checked the NYPL catalog. If I'm not more successful on my return to Kiev on Thursday, I fly home on Friday I'll try to record and antedate Ukraine food with the following NYPL books on Saturday: Edward Morton, TRAVELS IN RUSSIA, AND A RESIDENCE AT ST. PETERSBURG AND ODESSA IN THE YEARS 1827-1829 (1830) Karl Koch, DIE KRIM UND ODESSA (1854) Joachim Tarnopol, NOTICES HISTORIQUES ET CARACTISTIQUES SUR LES ISRAELITES D'ODESSA (1855) Steven Zilperstein, THE JEWS OF ODESSA: A CULTURAL HISTORY 1794-1881 ODESSA PROVERB: The local woman guide said that it's an Odessa proverb not to confuse Bibel with Babel and Gogol with Gugul. (Sorry for spelling errors here.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 21:00:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:00:47 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [Mark Mandel] #|o| That's a relief. Of course, that won't sway the #|o| [beware; I feel a cranky rant coming on] #|o| ignorant masses who prefer reinforcing their prejudices to, God forbid, #|o| learning something or dealing in facts, or their eager manipulators. #|o| [That's off my chest. End rant.] # #Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the #question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, but I'm relieved that, as far as the charge and the present evidence are concerned, the _Smithsonian_ magazine is not contributing to it. -- Mark A. Mandel From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Jul 21 21:17:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:17:23 -0400 Subject: Lynch Message-ID: Another example of the extended meaning is in the murder of the two IDF reservists who got lost in Ramallah, sought refuge in a police station, where they were killed with knives, the bodies later thrown from a window onto the street. The news reports referred to these murders as lynchings. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Jul 21 23:01:27 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:01:27 -0700 Subject: Lynch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, what I should have said is that the meaning seems to have changed as to whether it necessarily means hanging... Benjamin Barrett Tukwila, WA Gambling, gamboling and more at the Riverside Inn in Tukwila! > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > > Lynch (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Lynched (?); p. pr. & vb. n. > Lynching.] [See Note under Lynch law.] To inflict punishment upon, > especially death, without the forms of law, as when a mob captures > and hangs a suspected person. See Lynch law. > > Since the first meaning is being used today, perhaps this word has > widened and narrowed in scope over the years, or its > actual range of > meaning gone unnoticed for several decades. My American Heritage > third edition does not include the wider scope. > > How about newer dictionaries? From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Jul 21 22:59:31 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:59:31 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: > > I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my parents' > generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably > through schooling in "proper" English. > Beverly-- That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded 'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to 1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or "Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone with either of those two names, anyway). My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was [lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. -- Millie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Jul 21 23:35:11 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:35:11 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2310a$466edda0$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your English is more proper than mine?) I doubt that it had anything at all to do with Norwegian immigrants, any more than with any other immigrants. In fact, I'm quite sure that other regions (Northern?) have bury-furry too--and logically the Philly-Baltimore area has it, since American, Lower Merian, etc. rhyme with Murray there. Walt Wolfram, where are you when we need you?! Again, I think Craig-as-Kregg is not lexically limited. Someone else mentioned "plague" as "plegg"; I've heard that too, besides The Hague as Hegg. On the other hand, Lars with a devoiced final consonant is a holdover from Scandinavian languages, but that too is changing with the younger generations. Ditto with Oslo, where the medial fricative is also devoiced in Norway but not here. At 05:59 PM 7/21/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my >parents' > > generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably > > through schooling in "proper" English. > > > >Beverly-- > >That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded >'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do >with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to >1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans >I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years >old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on >this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type >of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. >Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you >pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no >problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or >"Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was >introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not >really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have >never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone >with either of those two names, anyway). > >My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in >Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is >named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was >[lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and >responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and >responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could >not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. > >Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking >about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" >today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] >at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and >pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my >experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how >you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: >names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not >necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. >-- Millie Beverly Olson Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 21 23:40:52 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:40:52 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| |o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in some circles. rhk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:51:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:51:49 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [Mark Mandel] #|o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, # #But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've #nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we #don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful #for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just #because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in #some circles. I'm not sure what you're saying that we don't know. We do know that some people believe this etymythology. I thought I had seen a statement in this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive; if I remember wrong, please correct me. What should I not be upset about? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:55:39 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:55:39 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #>Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of these divisions? I've #>always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of my kids says "burry" #>--like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have picked up during the year #>she spent at school in England at age 12, though I don't remember hearing #>that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR news readers (Norah #>Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always sounds odd to me. #>A. Murie # #How about good ol'-fashioned spelling pronuciation as an explanation #for this one? "bury" doesn't LOOK as though it should be a homonym #of "berry". Is that "furry"* with rhotic schwa (or rhotic turned-epsilon) or with /^/ (wedge)? I have the latter vowel in "hurry", the former in "furry". * none of those should be in slashes, since they're plainly not phonemic representations -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Jul 21 23:56:41 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:56:41 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 10:36 AM -0700 7/20/02, Benjamin Barrett wrote: #>The first time I heard of Walla Walla was from a Buggs Bunny cartoon #>as a child, but I never knew it had been named twice. #> #Yup, once each by the twin naming-wallahs visiting from India. Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 00:03:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:03:26 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry's quotation from the Snopes cite was truncated, at least as I received it. Not really important, as I'm sure I can find the whole thing by searching Snopes for "picnic". -- Mark A. Mandel On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: [...] #Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): [...] #on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't #deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended #by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: # # Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of #SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie #Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said #this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to #gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English #professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism #than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually #comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which #everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, #nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is #-- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an #"outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY #decided to publicize the ========= POST ENDS HERE ======= From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 01:13:55 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:13:55 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:03 PM -0400 7/21/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Larry's quotation from the Snopes cite was truncated, at least as I >received it. Not really important, as I'm sure I can find the whole >thing by searching Snopes for "picnic". > >-- Mark A. Mandel Oops, sorry. I also seem to have misspelled Mikkelson's name. I'll fill it in below, in its proper place (including the moral Mikkelson draws from it all). The excerpt from the National Post article, i.e. the anecdote from SUNY Albany, contains the reference you mentioned in your earlier post, attributed to Zaheer Mustafa below. (That is, "I thought I had seen a statement in this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive".) This isn't that different a conclusion from the one drawn by the mayoral aide in the "niggardly" flap--something along the lines of "I know the word doesn't mean what they thought it meant, but I should have been more careful anyway because its use offended them". And after all, you CAN insult someone inadvertently. larry > >On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > [...] > >#Barbara Mickelson's response at snopes.com (Nov. 15, 2000): > > [...] >#on the Internet. Of course, the fact that it's spurious hasn't >#deterred those who are determined to find something to be offended >#by, as noted in this excerpt from a recent National Post article: ># ># Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of >#SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie >#Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said >#this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to >#gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English >#professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism >#than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually >#comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which >#everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, >#nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is >#-- the word offends." So the university decided to call it an >#"outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY >#decided to publicize the event without using any noun to describe it. [Now back to Mikkelson herself] There's a very real downside to spouting hoax definitions just because they push a few buttons: It makes those doing the yelling look uneducated and uneducable. Those who run with their emotions instead of using their heads end up doing the racists' work for them by making themselves appear to be foolish shadow-jumpers incapable of cracking open any random dictionary before yelling that the sky is falling. This popeyed caricature image is not something one wishes to foster if racism is to be defeated; it merely serves to reinforce the white supremacists' claim that blacks are inherently inferior. Barbara "nitpicnic'ing" Mikkelson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 01:23:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:23:09 -0400 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:55 PM -0400 7/21/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Is that "furry"* > with rhotic schwa (or rhotic turned-epsilon) > or > with /^/ (wedge)? > >I have the latter vowel in "hurry", the former in "furry". > >* none of those should be in slashes, since they're plainly not phonemic >representations > I have the same distinction and I think for me it has to do with morpheme and/or syllable boundaries (something like the different vowel rules for "hammer" and "hamster"). So for instance I used to distinguish "curry" (with the wedge) from "cur-y" ('pertaining to a cur'), with the "furry" vowel. Others in the former group: Murray, scurry, surrey, worry. Another minimal pair: worry vs. whirry. And I suppose "hurry" vs. "Ben-Hur-y" or "Murray" vs. "myrrhy". But again, this ended up unstable and I now vacillate on those old wedge vowels. larry From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 01:34:50 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:34:50 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think the jury is still out on the > question, not of the word's origin but on the word's usage. I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and that the word has its origin in this practice. But I haven't seen any evidence that anyone actually uses or ever used "picnic" as a racial slur or coded term for lynchings or other racist activities. I haven't even seen anyone claim that the word is used in a racist manner, only that it should be avoided because of its (false) origin. Its usage seems to be universally and unambiguously innocent of racism. > Certainly oral histories of elderly southerner--both black > and white in this particular case--like the one below from > a special presentation called Remembering Jim Crow, make > the association between whites picnicking and black > lynchings, so it wasn't too long ago. > http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/remembering/transcript.html Note that the statements made about picnicking at the sites of lynchings in the NPR feature are not exactly "oral histories." They are simply historical, not personal, claims made Amelia Robinson, a long-time leader in the civil rights movement (at least I think it's her, NPR doesn't give her credentials). She does not claim to have witnessed such events, nor does she give any facts about when, where, and how often these picnics took place. She simply states that such events did occur. (Note that superficially it appears as if several people are making the claims, but a careful reading shows that the different voices are all Robinson's, edited to provide a slightly different phrasing each time.) Also, in the piece Robinson uses "picnic" to refer to days blacks spent on the town: "Because they got paid on Fridays, they'd come to town on Saturdays and spend the money. That was their attitude. So, black people, would see, this was like a picnic to them. They would see their friends, their relatives. They'd make acquaintances and what not." It does not appear that Robinson herself associates use of the word "picnic" with lynching or other evils of racism. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Mon Jul 22 03:55:57 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:55:57 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: Sorry, I should have maybe put a "smiley face" after the hickish comment. And no, of course I don't think my English is more "proper" than yours. All I know is that in The Cities, where and when I grew up, and now, whenever I go back (which is often), I have never noticed a native of the Cities saying "burry" for "bury". I tend to notice stuff like that! ;-) I was not saying people who say it that way ARE "hickish", but that the listener attitudinal switch flips to that (+ rural, +older generation). It actually makes me smile to recognize it when it happens, in spite of years of meeting people with all sorts of accents from all over, given that I "know better" than to make such assumptions. It is still hard to turn off. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: pronuncation of BURY > Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. > since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you > recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your And, I am also a (proud, thank you) Norwegian-American whose ancestors moved to Southern Minnesota first (from Norway), before moving up the Cities fifty to seventy years ago. I just was wondering out loud if that Norwegian language influence being stronger in the more rural areas might have influenced that conflation hanging around longer, that's all. Please don't report me to Sons of Norway. I didn't mean it that way! :-) From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 22 04:36:49 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:36:49 -0500 Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota In-Reply-To: <20020720040205.500134E47@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Saturday the 13th, an ice cream social's refreshments included "soda" -- in what once was solid "pop" territory. One of the sodas listed was Mountain Due. I mentioned this to one of the people who were selling refreshments. She said that her daughter had made the sign, and she herself had apparently decided it didn't matter. Note: the event was in Bryant Square Park, put on by the CARAG Neighorhood Organization. From dsgood at VISI.COM Mon Jul 22 04:46:19 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 23:46:19 -0500 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <20020722040008.AE5F2583D@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 > From: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: Picnic > The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is that it > refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante > tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American Revolution. The > earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to him. > > Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named Charles > Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) for > presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American Revolution. > Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not remembered, or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to hanging for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he did so himself. From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 05:38:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 22:38:36 -0700 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <3D3B47CB.7552.198504@localhost> Message-ID: > The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not remembered, > or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to hanging > for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he > did so himself. Tradition has it that Mayor James Lynch Fitzstephen of Galway, Ireland allegedly hanged his own son for a murder in 1493. This incident (if true) has no apparent etymological connection to the verb "to lynch." The first appearance of the word is over 300 years later in the US. I am sure there are other Lynches from various places and times who had something to do with a hanging and also failed to lend their name to posterity. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 22 08:41:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:41:41 +0100 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to where it might have come from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 09:55:19 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 05:55:19 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: <001201c2311f$f9356b10$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: |o| |o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of |o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and |o| that the word has its origin in this practice. The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about this use of the word, then it can't be true. True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. ||o| |o| Note that the statements made about picnicking at the sites of |o| lynchings in |o| the NPR feature are not exactly "oral histories." They are simply |o| historical, not personal, claims made Amelia Robinson, a |o| long-time leader in |o| the civil rights movement (at least I think it's her, NPR |o| doesn't give her |o| credentials). Actually, I remember hearing the series broadcast in several installments. This is excepts of a series of oral histories and Robinson's voice was seldom used. rhk From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 10:20:39 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:20:39 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| I'm not sure what you're saying that we don't know. We do know that some |o| people believe this etymythology. I thought I had seen a statement in |o| this thread that someone who was informed of its falsehood replied that |o| its truth or falsehood was irrelevant to him, as the word was offensive; |o| if I remember wrong, please correct me. What should I not be upset |o| about? |o| I don't think anybody said that on this thread. What I'm saying is that this version of picnic had to come from somewhere and that we don't know where, but that it would be interesting to track it down. Either it's use was 1. coined by some writer for the movie Rosewood, 2. it was a college prank at SUNY or the Smithsonian, or 3. is below the radar screens of etymologists. As I touched on in another post, Mark Twain claims to have inserted the H in Jesus H. Christ as a prank while an apprentice printer, but it gained currency. Is it important? Is it even true? Who knows? But it's good to know and to record. Same thing with this twist in picnic. After all, you don't have to hang around word folk very long to find plenty of examples of words or phrases referencing something that didn't happen or something that happened differently than the way it is enshrined in the current usage. As etymologist, one would think that it would be interesting to be present, as it were, at the birth of a usage that gains currency and to be able to record that first instance of it and where it sprang up. That's the only point I'm making: we know it's beginning and we know where picnic stands today, but there's a piece of this that is missing. Some examples (not to single out homosexuals but in my caffeine deprived state this morning these terms are within easy reach): Gay, Out and Outing, and the word I've given up trying to rescue as it slips into permanent misuse, hopefully. rhk From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 22 11:02:25 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 04:02:25 -0700 Subject: Lynch -- folk etymology In-Reply-To: <3D3B47CB.7552.198504@localhost> Message-ID: I grew up in Lynchburg, VA, named for its founder, John Lynch. But I received many jokes about it in college when people asked, "Is that where blacks were lynched?" --- Dan Goodman wrote: > > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:40:02 -0700 > > From: Dave Wilton > > Subject: Re: Picnic > > The exact etymology is unknown. The most likely explanation is > that it > > refers to Captain William Lynch (1742-1820) who led a vigilante > > tribunal in Pittsylvania, Virginia during the American > Revolution. The > > earliest recorded use of the term (in OED2), in 1811, refers to > him. > > > > Another common explanation is that it is after a judge named > Charles > > Lynch who served in Virginia and is credited (perhaps wrongly so) > for > > presiding over mob trials of Tories during the American > Revolution. > > Supporting evidence for this explanation is sketchier. > > The explanation I remember: Judge Lynch (first name not > remembered, > or perhaps not given) was Irish. He condemned his own son to > hanging > for murder -- and when no one else would carry out the sentence, he > did so himself. ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 12:11:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:11:47 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020721191201.00b14ad0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> /larz/. dInIs >Now, now, I take umbrage at the "hickish and old-fashioned" comment--esp. >since I'm a Norw-American from southern Minnesota! (And I hope you >recognized my irony when I mentioned "proper" English--or do you think your >English is more proper than mine?) I doubt that it had anything at all to >do with Norwegian immigrants, any more than with any other immigrants. In >fact, I'm quite sure that other regions (Northern?) have bury-furry >too--and logically the Philly-Baltimore area has it, since American, Lower >Merian, etc. rhyme with Murray there. Walt Wolfram, where are you when we >need you?! > >Again, I think Craig-as-Kregg is not lexically limited. Someone else >mentioned "plague" as "plegg"; I've heard that too, besides The Hague as >Hegg. On the other hand, Lars with a devoiced final consonant is a >holdover from Scandinavian languages, but that too is changing with the >younger generations. Ditto with Oslo, where the medial fricative is also >devoiced in Norway but not here. > >At 05:59 PM 7/21/2002 -0500, you wrote: >> > >>> I don't know about Iowa, but the bury-furry rhyme was common in my >>parents' >>> generation in Minnesota. At some point I switched to bury-berry, probably >>> through schooling in "proper" English. >>> >> >>Beverly-- >> >>That must be why I thought that "bury" pronounced like "burry" sounded >>'hick-ish' and old-fashioned. I have to wonder if it had something to do >>with the many native Norwegians in the Southern Minnesota in the 1850s to >>1920s. It sounds like something the Norwegian-as-first-language Minnesotans >>I have known would say. (especially those who would now be 70-100 years >>old). I know I have never said "bury" as anything but "berry". And on >>this topic, notice that most of the questions we seem to have on this type >>of sounds (besides the classic Merry-Mary-Marry) are questions about names. >>Names are different. You pronounce a name the way everyone else around you >>pronounces it (unless the bearer tells you differently). So, I have no >>problem imagining saying "Craig" as "cregg" or "crayg" (like Hague). Or >>"Gary" like "merry" or "Mary" or "marry", depending on how someone was >>introduced to me. Naturally, myself, I would say "Gary" like "Mary" (not >>really different from how I say "marry"), and "Craig" like "cregg". I have >>never run into anyone who did not like the way I said their name (anyone >>with either of those two names, anyway). >> >>My sister, during and since college, has a friend from Saulte St Marie in >>Michigan (I may have spelled that wrong, living in Wisconsin now), who is >>named "Lana". Not only would she not tell me when I asked whether it was >>[lanna] or [layna], she claimed she could not hear a difference, and >>responded to either one. I had noticed she did not seem to care, and >>responded to either one; but I was very surprised when she told me she could >>not even hear that I was saying it two different ways. >> >>Anyway, my point is, that names are always tricky when you start talking >>about pronunciation: especially the new ones (I met a girl named "Solare" >>today, but she and everyone else pronounces it [solar], with no schwa or [E] >>at the end). The older ones are spelled differently (if you're lucky), and >>pronounced differently according to tradition in that family's speech, in my >>experience. Just like "Jan" as a man's name being [yahn] or [jan], or how >>you say the [s] on the end of "Lars". So anyway, there's my two cents: >>names are almost always lexically variant for individuals, and not >>necessarily according to some overall phonemic rule. >>-- Millie > >Beverly Olson Flanigan >Associate Professor of Linguistics >Ohio University >Athens, OH 45701 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 12:18:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:18:15 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An excellent point. Some etymologists appear to believe that the science is limited to "ultimates." I wonder why they ever mess with Germanic and Latin-Greek bsses when they could just run up the reconstructed PIE morphs. But that would not lead us down the often exciting trails of words, ones which include numerous folk etymologies being responsible for the current "meaning" (or even shape) of a word. More sociolinguistically appropriate, of course, is the fact that not all words have meant the same thing to all groups, a pretty common lexicographical fact, I would think, since we have dictionaries based on all sorts of group memberships and since leakage of those meanings to out-groups is common - African-American to the wider speech community being just one very good example. dInIs >|o| >|o| Oh, I'm still upset about the political popularity of false etymology, > > >But we don't know that for sure either, at least not in this case. We've >nailed down the beginning and the end point of this picnic issue, but we >don't know what's in the middle. A regionalism? Black speak too painful >for whites to acknowledge? We don't know or we don't want to know? Just >because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it doesn't have currency in >some circles. > >rhk -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 13:02:02 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:02:02 EDT Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: In a message dated 7/22/02 4:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > where it might have come from? You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following is a guess: Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half a century has been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given expert in math, physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover reprints in her or his home library. - Jim Landau From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 22 13:04:49 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:04:49 -0700 Subject: Kregg vs. Craig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, for me, bury and berry rhyme, both pronounced as "burry". Ed > Does the pronunciation of /bury/ fit into one of > these divisions? I've > always pronounced it the same as /berry/, but one of > my kids says "burry" > --like /furry/--which I thought she *might* have > picked up during the year > she spent at school in England at age 12, though I > don't remember hearing > that pronunciation there, myself. One of the NPR > news readers (Norah > Rahm?) also uses this pronunciation. It always > sounds odd to me. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 13:15:58 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:15:58 EDT Subject: Haman's fritters Message-ID: Not "hamantaschen" but still interesting. _The Jewish Manual_ "edited by a Lady [pseudonym for Lady Judith Montefiore]" London: T. & W. Boone, 1846. Reprinted by Nightingale Books, New York, 1983, ISBN 0-911389-00-8. page 123: HAMAN'S FRITTERS. Take two spoonful [sic] of the best Florence oil, scald it, and when hot, mix with it one pound of flour, add four beaten eggs and make it into a paste, roll it out thin and cut it into pieces about four inches square, let them dry and fry them in oil; the moment the pieces are put in [page 124] the frying pan, they must be drawn up with two silver skewers into different forms according to fancy; a few miniutes is sufficient to fry them, they should be crisp when done. - James A. Landau From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 14:00:16 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:00:16 -0700 Subject: Steak: ever pronounced other than "stake?" Message-ID: I've run into a couple of Norwegian teachers who insist that steak is pronounced "steek" in places they've visited in the U.S. Are they correct, and if so where are these places? From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 14:08:29 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:08:29 EDT Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: In a message dated 7/21/2002 7:56:49 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? >> Well, one could certainly argue that "New York City, New York," was not NAMED twice, just that there is a repetition of the city name and the state name compounded by an optional deletion. Walla Walla, on the other hand, was actually named "twice." So "New York City, New York" is really no different from "Iowa City, Iowa." (Except that people don't talk funny in Iowa City.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:24:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:24:18 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: [attribution lost:] #|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of #|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and #|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. # #The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at #lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about #this use of the word, then it can't be true. By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't think anyone is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called "picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main question is whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. # True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how #that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. "It" being the etymythology? To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the symbol sequence "IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being "Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 14:30:38 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:30:38 -0400 Subject: FW: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: RE what Ron B says (copied below), "New York City" is an alternate form used to distinguish the city from the state. Officially, the name of the city is "New York", as used by the US Postal Service and by the FIPS-55-DC3 file, the latter of which is the placename file for the US that is official in the eyes of the federal government. New York, the city, includes all 5 boroughs. The borough of Manhattan is coterminous with the county of New York. (Each of the 5 boroughs is coterminous with its county.) If you are speaking of the area that is the borough of Manhattan, it can be said that it is named THREE times -- the city, the county, and the state, each "New York". I believe this to be the only such place in the US. Frank Abate ********************* In a message dated 7/21/2002 7:56:49 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << Heh. That's "named twice", but not "two names, twice". *Is* there any other city than New York, New York that can be so described? >> Well, one could certainly argue that "New York City, New York," was not NAMED twice, just that there is a repetition of the city name and the state name compounded by an optional deletion. Walla Walla, on the other hand, was actually named "twice." So "New York City, New York" is really no different from "Iowa City, Iowa." (Except that people don't talk funny in Iowa City.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:31:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:31:20 -0400 Subject: pronuncation of BURY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a #modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like #Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist #those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> #/larz/. Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 22 14:38:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:38:40 -0400 Subject: Steak: ever pronounced other than "stake?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Leif Knutsen wrote: #I've run into a couple of Norwegian teachers who insist that steak is #pronounced "steek" in places they've visited in the U.S. Are they correct, #and if so where are these places? I've never heard it. How likely is it that they misheard US [eI] as [i:]? -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 14:38:46 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:38:46 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its "complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history and social history will surely set us back. dInIs >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > > [attribution lost:] >#|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are certainly a number of >#|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites of lynchings and >#|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. ># >#The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at >#lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we don't know about >#this use of the word, then it can't be true. > >By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took >place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific >and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the >etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't think anyone >is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called >"picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main question is >whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited >in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. > ># True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how >#that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. > >"It" being the etymythology? > >To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the symbol sequence >"IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta >Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being >"Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a >written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) >graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. > >-- Mark A. Mandel -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jul 22 14:42:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:42:54 -0400 Subject: Lars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course, I was speaking of the process among Norwegian language users in the US and of the speech communities of non-Norwegian speakers who they influenced and were influenced by. Your shortcut is surely the right one for English-speaking readers. dInIs >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >#Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a >#modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like >#Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist >#those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> >#/larz/. > >Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? > >I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than >necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area >in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, >long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the >default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. >Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. > >-- Mark A. Mandel -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 22 15:10:14 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:10:14 -0400 Subject: Picnic( Jesus H. Christ) Message-ID: Mark Mandel writes: >I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator"....... ~~~~~~ ....also popularly thought to mean "In Hoc Signo," I'm not sure why. A. Murie From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Jul 22 15:36:08 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:36:08 -0400 Subject: FW: Picnic( Jesus H. Christ) Message-ID: RE the comments below, IHS also happens to be the first three letters of the Greek spelling/form for _Jesus_, which is sometimes mentioned in this connection. I did not know about the interpretation of IHS = In Hoc Signo. Perhaps relevant to these words is the story that when Constantine the Great, in 312, was about to fight the battle at Saxa Rubra (the Battle of the Mulvian Bridge) to clear the way to take Rome, he is said to have had a vision from God, who showed him a cross in the sky and said to him, "In hoc signo vinces" ('In this sign shall you conquer'). There are depictions of this vision, showing the cross with the words, so the connection could be from that. Frank Abate Mark Mandel writes: >I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum >Salvator"....... ~~~~~~ ....also popularly thought to mean "In Hoc Signo," I'm not sure why. A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 16:18:01 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:18:01 -0700 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > |o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are > certainly a number of > |o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites > of lynchings and > |o| that the word has its origin in this practice. > > The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at > lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we > don't know about > this use of the word, then it can't be true. True or not, > however, I'd > think it interesting to know where & how that it got started, > like the H in > Jesus H Christ. I think there is little doubt that such incidents did occur. The question is how common were they? Were they common enough to create an actual association between the word "picnic" and lynchings in the minds of African Americans. Or is the association a recent and fanciful one, created in the minds of a few, connecting a horrifying but singular event with a false etymology, and then spread via email and fax? As for how it got started, it's probably hopeless to try and pin down the exact origin. (I've found references to the false etymology dating to 1993.) It probably started by someone making guess at an origin without looking it up in the dictionary. Perhaps the person was making a joke, one whose dark humor was understandably lost on listeners who took it for fact. There are lots of other examples. Other ethnic examples include the "whole nine yards" being the amount of cloth used to make a Scottish kilt or a 15th century Bristol merchant named Ameryk lending his name to a new continent or "OK" coming from the Greek "olla kalla." Someone, somewhere made a guess and ethnic pride keeps the false origin alive. But it is nothing but a factoid, one that does not affect usage of the word or phrase. As far as the attitude being "if we don't know about this use..., then it can't be true," I think the better way of stating it would be let us not make up speculative usages. First let's find evidence that the offensive connotation actually exists outside the forwarded emails and faxes that spread the false origin before we try to determine how it came to be. The NPR interview is a negative data point in this respect. Robinson describes the picnics at lynchings and then goes on to use "picnic" in another context, free of association with lynchings. Clearly, in her mind there is no racist or offensive connotation in "picnic." So far, what we've got is urban legend, not linguistics. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 22 16:25:00 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Precisely. It's not my field, but I never viewed etymology as prescriptive but descriptive. Certainly the journey of language is at least as interesting as the vehicle, the individual word, itself. Perhaps it's because I'm more interested in ideas and connections than just definitions (a very Thomas Hobbes, kind of ideal). For instance, as an undergraduate we studied the Hawthorne Effect as a management tool, which came from the disciplines of both business and psychology (roughly, work conditions effects the outcome). However, after problems were discovered with the methodology in Hawthorne, then business dropped it and the social sciences amended the meaning of Hawthorne Effect to reflect the fact that you get the results you tell people you're watching for (polluting the experiment) and then along comes Tom Peters selling books to business telling them that "You get what you measure". Then tie all that together with, say, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle to describe several phenomena in physics. After awhile certain aspects of Heisneberg are adopted by the social scientists (merely observing changes the result) to more or less replace Hawthorne in the social sciences. Somehow, it all seems interesting and interconnected to me. I guess it's just me, but the constant ebb and flow of meaning, the borrowing and coining as life bumps up against language is what etymology is all about. Perhaps we should just publish a final dictionary for all eternity and retire from the playing field. Rick |o| -----Original Message----- |o| From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf |o| Of Dennis R. Preston |o| Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 10:39 |o| To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU |o| Subject: Re: Picnic |o| |o| |o| How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") |o| for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, |o| denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our |o| knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to |o| say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its |o| "complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, |o| associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history |o| and social history will surely set us back. |o| |o| dInIs |o| |o| |o| |o| |o| >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: |o| > |o| > [attribution lost:] |o| >#|o| I wouldn't say the jury was out at all. There are |o| certainly a number of |o| >#|o| people who believe that picnics took place at the sites |o| of lynchings and |o| >#|o| that the word has its origin in this practice. |o| ># |o| >#The photographic record is pretty clear that people did picnic at |o| >#lynching/hangings. So far the attitude seems to be, if we |o| don't know about |o| >#this use of the word, then it can't be true. |o| > |o| >By "this use of the word" do you mean the proposition that picnics took |o| >place at lynchings? That's a practice, not a word usage; it's horrific |o| >and I see why some would deny it, but is such denial relevant to the |o| >etymythology? And "the attitude" = whose attitude? I don't |o| think anyone |o| >is saying that picnics took place at lynchings but weren't called |o| >"picnics", which would indeed be an issue of usage. The main |o| question is |o| >whether that was the origin of the word, and the evidence already cited |o| >in this thread has definitively proved that it wasn't. |o| > |o| ># True or not, however, I'd think it interesting to know where & how |o| >#that it got started, like the H in Jesus H Christ. |o| > |o| >"It" being the etymythology? |o| > |o| >To follow the digression: I think the "H" comes from the |o| symbol sequence |o| >"IHC" for "Jesus". That was originally a Greek abbreviation, Iota Eta |o| >Sigma for the Greek form of the Hebrew name (Yeshuah), the Greek being |o| >"Iesous" (long e) in transliteration and approximately IHCOYC (C is a |o| >written form of capital sigma; Y here stands for capital upsilon) |o| >graphically. I believe the same sequence was later read as the Latin |o| >IHS, which was expanded in such meaningful ways as "Iesus Hominum |o| >Salvator" 'Jesus, Savior of Men/Humans'. |o| > |o| >-- Mark A. Mandel |o| |o| -- |o| Dennis R. Preston |o| Professor of Linguistics |o| Department of Linguistics and Languages |o| 740 Wells Hall A |o| Michigan State University |o| East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA |o| Office - (517) 353-0740 |o| Fax - (517) 432-2736 |o| From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 22 16:33:04 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:33:04 -0700 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <17b.b991757.2a6d5c4a@aol.com> Message-ID: > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > where it might have come from? > > You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following > is a guess: The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? > Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half > a century has > been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and > scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given > expert in math, > physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover > reprints in her or > his home library. Good guess. Do they do medical books? Militating against it is the sense of troubleshooting consultant rather than written authority. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 20:33:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:33:33 -0400 Subject: Malodorant; Odessa-Mama, NYC-Papa Message-ID: Greetings from Yalta. I just had a pleasant, 10-hour ride from Odessa that featured one thunderstorm and one flat tire...Tomorrow (Tuesday) I tour the site of the famous 1945 Yalta meeting, plus the place where Chekhov wrote CHERRY ORCHARD. --------------------------------------------------------------- ODESSA NOTES GEM OF THE BLACK SEA--a nickname for Odessa. LITTLE ODESSA--the title of a 1995 film about Bright Beach, Brooklyn, NYC. The big Odessa immigration to NYC was in the 1970s. ODESSA-MAMA, NEW YORK-PAPA--My tour guide said that Odessa was also nicknamed Mama, where people were born. New York City was nicknamed Papa, as in "Come to Papa!" THE DAY OF HUMOR IN ODESSA (ODESA HUMORYNA)--April first (April Fool's Day). It's a big festival in the town. Odessa is known as the "humor capital of the Ukraine." I can't quickly find out when this tradition began; "April fools" pre-dates the founding of Odessa. ROMA-AMOR--another city, better known for being spelled backwards. --------------------------------------------------------------- MALODORANT "Malodorant" is not in the revised OED? Some interesting terms are in this article from TIME, and the DrudgeReport web page: Beyond the Rubber Bullet The Pentagon's effort to create nonlethal weapons that hurt but don't kill has set off its own fire storm BY LEV GROSSMAN Sunday, Jul. 21, 2002 (...) DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS Imagine a cross between a microwave oven and a Star Trek phaser: a tight, focused beam of energy that flash-heats its target from a distance. Directed energy beams do not burn flesh, but they do create an unbearably painful burning sensation. The Air Force Research Laboratory has already spent $40 million on a humvee-mounted directed-energy weapon. Expect to see it in the field by 2009. (...) MALODORANTS Working for the Pentagon, the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia has formulated smells so repellent that they can quickly clear a public space of anyone who can breathe ? partygoers, rioters, even enemy forces. Scientists have tested the effectiveness of such odors as vomit, burnt hair, sewage, rotting flesh and a potent concoction known euphemistically as "U.S. Government Standard Bathroom Malodor." But don't expect to get a whiff anytime soon. Like all gaseous weapons, malodorants once released are hard to control, and their use is strictly limited by international chemical-weapons treaties. PROJECTILES No one likes rubber bullets ? not the people being fired at nor the people doing the firing. "It's very easy to put out an eye, to blind someone," says Glenn Shwaery, director of the Nonlethal Technology Innovation Center. (...) Shwaery's team is looking into an even more radical solution: "tunable" bullets that can be adjusted in the field to be harder or softer as the situation warrants. "We're talking about dialing in the penetrating power," he says. (...) REAL RAY GUNS Further out on the horizon, the line between weapons development and science fiction becomes perilously thin. Mission Research Corp. of Santa Barbara, Calif., is working on a pulsed energy projectile (PEP) that superheats the surface moisture around a target so rapidly that it literally explodes, producing a bright flash of light and a loud bang. (...) DRUGS, BUGS AND BEYOND Even their supporters agree that "nonlethal weapons" is a dangerous misnomer and that any of these devices has the potential to injure and kill. What is more, some of them may not even be legal. Over the past three months, a chemical-weapons watchdog organization called the Sunshine Project has obtained evidence that the U.S. is considering some projects that appear to take us beyond the bounds of good sense: bioengineered bacteria designed to eat asphalt, fuel and body armor, or faster-acting, weaponized forms of antidepressants, opiates and so-called "club drugs" that could be rapidly administered to unruly crowds. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 22 21:03:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:03:31 -0400 Subject: Pink Dune (a mocktail) Message-ID: The following are served in the restaurant of my Hotel Oreanda in Yalta, Ukraine: PINK DUNE (non-alcoholic drink)--mango juice, cream, grenadine. (A Google search shows several hits, all from Eastern Europe. Did this drink start in Prague or Germany?...No other Ukraine cocktails of any great interest--ed.) VICTORIA SALAD--Chicken fillet, Banana and Oranges sprinkled with Walnuts and a Salad Garnish. (Not so many Google hits--ed.) FAIR LADY SALAD of Boiled Tongue and Fried Champignons with Mayonnaise. (No Google hits for this Fair Lady? A boiled tongue on a Fair Lady?--ed.) MISC.: A July 18, 2002 addition to "The Word Spy" includes "Hillbilly Heroin," a term that I posted here several months ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 22 23:24:07 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:24:07 -0400 Subject: Picnic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0400 7/22/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >How many practices have to accompany another (designated by a "word") >for the latter to gain connotations and, as time marches on, >denotations? What does "housewife" mean (today), and, in spite of our >knowledge of the origin of its morphs (way back), wouldn't we want to >say that a part of its more recent meaning and use history (its >"complete etymology," I would say) has to do with practices, >associations, connotations and the like? A divorce of word history >and social history will surely set us back. > >dInIs > A point made very well, incidentally, by A. W. Read in the aforementioned (even by Safire) new book, with his notion of the "trajectory" of the history of a word. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 23 00:26:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:26:23 -0500 Subject: "pros from Dover" Message-ID: Here's a guess. During the Normandy Invasion,some specially-trained American forces had to scale the cliffs. Might they have first practiced on the cliffs of Dover and become proficient there? Gerald Cohen > In a message dated 7/22/02 4:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > where it might have come from? > From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Jul 23 00:53:26 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:53:26 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: Since Dover Del. is the state capitol, is there a Med. school there, or were they horseplayers at Dover Downs? Anyone know Ring Lardner Jr. ask him! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Wilton" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > > A subscriber has asked about "pros from Dover", which he has found > > > in the Tom Clancy book "Rainbow Six" and which seems to mean > > > experts. I know that it was used in the 1970 Robert Altman film > > > M*A*S*H. Can anyone take it back further or give me a pointer to > > > where it might have come from? > > > > You didn't give the context of either quote, so the following > > is a guess: > > The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to > Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip > primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros > from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. > > I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is > there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? > > > Dover is the name of a publishing company that for over half > > a century has > > been turning out high-quality paperback reprints of mathematical and > > scientific books. It is a pretty safe bet that any given > > expert in math, > > physical sciences, or engineering has several dozen Dover > > reprints in her or > > his home library. > > Good guess. Do they do medical books? Militating against it is the sense of > troubleshooting consultant rather than written authority. > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 23 01:08:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:08:51 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <011301c231e3$5aae3a20$c306433f@paulz> Message-ID: At 7:53 PM -0500 7/22/02, Paul M. Johnson wrote: >Since Dover Del. is the state capitol, is there a Med. school there, or were hmmm. FWIW... [there are other google sites on "Pros from Dover"--311 hits on it, using the quotes--but none I've looked at really explains it or traces it back before the mention on M*A*S*H. Nor do any of those below. The jury is still out.] -larry ========== http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/1309.html ["The Phrase Finder"] Posted by Bill Rodgers on August 25, 2000 at 18:49:04: In Reply to: Re: Prose from Dover? posted by Tom on August 18, 2000 at 05:09:28: : : : : ....Pros from Dover : : : : Was this phrase in existence before Elliott Gould said it on M*A*S*H* ? If so, an someone help with it's origin and meaning? : : : I found a site that claims the phrase is really "prose from dover"! : : : Here is a paste from the site: : : : "I think the word may be pronounced "proa". This is another name for a small ship and derives from the malay word "prau". It does not need much imagination to see how a word such as this could be distorted to "prose". As you know, Britain had an interest in this area in the past and many words which make little sense are still used today." : : : Hmmmm...! : : : prau : : : any of various Indonesian boats usually without a deck that are propelled especially by sails or paddles : : This same phrase came up before. But I can't remember what was said. I don't think anyone had an answer. I always thought it had something to do with the White Cliffs of Dover during World War II. : From the script context below, one would think it means ~ experts. : I'm the pro from Dover and this : is my favorite caddie. : : Look, Mother. I want to go to : work in one hour. We're the pros : from Dover and we figure to crack : that kid's chest and get out to : the golf course before it's dark. : He's the pro from Dover and I'm : the Ghost of Smokey Joe. : Don't give them any unnecessary : details. Just say the pros from : Dover are on their way with an : emergency. In the UK Prostitutes are knows as Pros. Hence Pros from Dover may originate from this fact, Dover is a port and where there were sailors there did you also find Pros - lots of pros. Follow Ups: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 02:22:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:22:16 EDT Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: In a message dated 07/22/2002 12:38:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > The context of the M*A*S*H usage is that Hawkeye and Trapper are called to > Tokyo to perform minor surgery on a congressman's son. They view the trip > primarily as a way to get in a golf outing. They call themselves the "pros > from Dover" and show disdain for the Tokyo hospital staff. > > I inferred (without evidence) that it had something to do with golf. Is > there a famous golf course at some place named Dover? I have never seen the movie and it has been almost 30 years since I read the book. Does anyone know if the Tokyo golf outing is in the book (I recall Hawkeye and his pals playing golf in odd places but I don't recall any trips to Japan). Unfortunately H. Richard Hornberger MD, who wrote the book under the pseudonym "Richard Hooker", died in 1997 so we can't ask him.) Dover Deleaware is the site of a big Air Force base that specializes in air transport rather than fighters or bombers (the West Wing fans on the list may recall that the show goes there periodically). I don't know if it was a transport hub during the Korean War, but it could have been. Hornberger is from Maine, and wrote the book while in medical practice in Bremen, Maine. Wasn't Hawkeye from Crabapple Cove, Maine? Hornberger may easily have shipped to Korea from Dover, in which case to him "pros from Dover" might mean "specialists flown in from the States and specifically from the IEast Coast". Or when the movie was being filmed (released 1970), someone may have been thinking of Dover in terms similar to the above. In a message dated 07/22/2002 8:36:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > Here's a guess. During the Normandy Invasion,some > specially-trained American forces had to scale the cliffs. Might they > have first practiced on the cliffs of Dover and become proficient > there? The "specially-trained American forces" was the 2nd Ranger Batallion, and their target was the long-range German guns at POinte du Hoc. The unit was activated and trained in the United States in 1943 before going to England. I haven't been able to find out where its training for Pointe du Hoc was conducted. Among the special equipment the Rangers carried for their mission was fireman's ladders (certainly worth a try for scaling 100-foot cliffs), and I seem to recall reading somewhere that these ladders were borrowed from the London Fire Department. The 3rd Ranger Batallion trained at Dover, but it was the 2nd Batallion, not the 3rd, which attacked Pointe du Hoc. The Rangers did succeed in scaling the cliffs, only to find that the "battery" consisted of painted telephone poles. The real guns had been moved back into some woods to hide them from air attack. The Rangers followed the tracks left by the guns when they were moved, and found and destroyed the guns. According to one Web site, Cornelius Ryan's _The Longest Day_ says that the operation was a boondoggle. On the contrary, although the guns were not in position when the Allies landed, if the Rangers had not captured Pointe du Hoc the guns might have been moved back into position where they could have made the Omaha landing much worse than it was. I don't think the 2nd Rangers had anything to do with the phrase "pros from Dover". Slightly less unlikely: at the Dieppe raid commandos landed on both flanks to attack German coastal batteries. I don't know if these commandos were British, Canadian, American, or a mix, but it is possible that these men trained at Dover. However, I consider this little more likely than the Pointe du Hoc suggestion. - Jim Landau From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:34:59 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:34:59 -0500 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: See, Dennis? I was going to say that too. One of the neatest interim classes I took at Macalester College (in another lifetime) was on "folk etymology" and we talked about all kinds of swear words that weren't swear words to very many people, and even had assignments to find some odd turn-of-phrase in English and get several people's opinions on where it came from. I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, qater corner, etc.). I just remembered that class from reading this thread. It was called "Vernacular as Ornament", and was unashamedly "unscientific" in approach. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Picnic > An excellent point. Some etymologists appear to believe that the > science is limited to "ultimates." I wonder why they ever mess with > Germanic and Latin-Greek bsses when they could just run up the > reconstructed PIE morphs. But that would not lead us down the often > exciting trails of words, ones which include numerous folk > etymologies being responsible for the current "meaning" (or even > shape) of a word. > > More sociolinguistically appropriate, of course, is the fact that not > all words have meant the same thing to all groups, a pretty common > lexicographical fact, I would think, since we have dictionaries based > on all sorts of group memberships and since leakage of those meanings > to out-groups is common - African-American to the wider speech > community being just one very good example. > > dInIs > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:52:44 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:52:44 -0500 Subject: pros from dover Message-ID: Have to say I like this one a lot too. You people are good at this. One might think one had stumbled across an enclave of lingophiles, eh? Hornberger may easily have shipped to Korea from Dover, in which case to him "pros from Dover" might mean "specialists flown in from the States and specifically from the East Coast". From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:30:37 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:30:37 -0500 Subject: pronuncation of BURY Message-ID: I haven't looked through all of these, Dennis, so I may be repeating what someone else has already just said, but in many parts of Norway (I can't say "all", since I have not been everywhere, and Nynorsk as opposed to Bokma(o)l is hard enough for me to understand, I don't have time to worry about pronunciation!), that word-final /s/ really is [s], and not [sh]. I know this is at least true for native Norwegians I have known who lived in Norway from just before WWII to within the last ten years. And this is not because I have *asked* them -- as we all probably know, asking someone directly how they pronounce something often gets answers in isolation that sound nothing like how they say them in conversation. This [s] or [sh] allophone for /s/ at the end of words also marks very strongly where you come from within Northern Germany (in Bremen, it is [s], but in Hannover it is [sh] word-finally). And in large parts of Southern Germany, it is pronounced [sh] almost anywhere it appears (Schwaben, in particular). And by the way, the bear in the 1980 Olympics was indeed Misha. My nephew (Michael) was born just after that, and everyone called him Misha through preschool because it was "so cute" (now, he would sit on you if you called him that). With all due respect, Millie (by the way, Dennis, I remember you at Eastern very well, and wished I were there instead of Michigan sometimes, just so I could talk with you more often. You probably haven't a clue who I am anymore though.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:11 AM Subject: Re: pronuncation of BURY > Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a > modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like > Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist > those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> > /larz/. > > dInIs > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:49:46 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:49:46 -0500 Subject: pros from dover Message-ID: In the UK Prostitutes are knows as Pros. Hence Pros from Dover may originate from this fact, Dover is a port and where there were sailors there did you also find Pros - lots of pros. I vote for that one. It makes a lot of sense in a "folk etymology" kind of way. This kind of like playing linguishtiks, isn't it? (Anyway, that's what we called it in grad school.) From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 23 02:27:34 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:34 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted the following, in reference to children's books: it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. [_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. Just a data point. Jesse Sheidlower From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 02:16:49 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:16:49 -0500 Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota Message-ID: That is just strange, Dan. I never hear a native say "soda", but it appears on a sign every once in a while. Usually a formal sign created elsewhere and brought in for the occasion (like at the State Fair, on the food booths that travel the country to different Fairs, and don't use the "right" word for Pronto Pup). :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Goodman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: soda 1, pop 0 -- Minneapolis, Minnesota > Saturday the 13th, an ice cream social's refreshments included "soda" > -- in what once was solid "pop" territory. > > Note: the event was in Bryant Square Park, put on by the CARAG > Neighorhood Organization. > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 23 03:14:37 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:14:37 -0400 Subject: Picnic Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: > I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >qater corner, etc.). ~~~~~~ I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater corner" and how is it pronouounced? Long _ a_ or short? A. Murie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Tue Jul 23 03:52:27 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:52:27 -0500 Subject: FOLK ETYMOLOGY Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: > I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >qater corner, etc.). ~~~~~~ I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater corner" and how is it pronounced? Long _ a_ or short? A. Murie ------------------------ I have seen "lay people" write it (and trust me, you don't see it written often by chance) "kitty corner", "kiddy corner", "catty corner", "cater corner" and "qater corner" (though this latter was in a HUGE, old, red dictionary that I seem to recall was an American Heritage Dictionary). I have heard it "kiddy corner", "kitty corner" (which both sound virtually identical due to the "alveolar flap" that is a combination of "d" and "t"), "catty corner", "cat's corner" and "cater corner" (or "kater", if you prefer I spell it that way, but I assume the person would have spelled it with a "c", thinking it was from "cat"). Almost everyone I asked about it assumed it came from the word "cat" in some way. The more "formal" written etymologies I have seen claim it came from "qater", as in "four", and I did not run into any "lay people" who agreed they "would have guessed that, but just hadn't thought about it much". Oops, one more: "king's corner", I have heard too. I assume because of the children's card game. Still Me, Millie From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 23 05:03:32 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:03:32 -0700 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <35.2a17fdae.2a6e17d8@aol.com> Message-ID: > I have never seen the movie and it has been almost 30 years since > I read the book. Does anyone know if the Tokyo golf outing is in > the book (I recall Hawkeye and his pals playing golf in odd places > but I don't recall any trips to Japan). Unfortunately H. Richard > Hornberger MD, who wrote the book under the pseudonym "Richard > Hooker", died in 1997 so we can't ask him.) The 1970 screenplay was written by Ring Lardner, Jr. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us either. But, looking at the script, it is clearly a reference to golfing: "PRETTY WAC: Hey you can't go in there! Who are you? "HAWKEYE: I'm the pro from Dover and this is my favorite caddie." A little while later, Trapper says to the head-nurse: "TRAPPER: Look Mother. I want to go to work in one hour. We're the pros from Dover and we figure to crack that kid's chest and get out to the golf course before it's dark." The pair use the phrase self-referentially a couple of more times before they leave Tokyo. (M*A*S*H, by Ring Lardner, Jr., 1970, http://www.scriptdude.com/frames/moviescripts/mash.pdf ) My guess is that Lardner coined the phrase (unless it's in the book, which I haven't read). I have no idea what "Dover" refers to. There are no famous golf courses that I know of by that name or near a place called Dover. A web search identifies a 9-hole course in Dover-Foxcroft, Maine. Possibly, Hawkeye is making a facetious reference to a small, local golf course that he knew back home. From brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 23 05:27:49 2002 From: brookepierce at EARTHLINK.NET (Brooke Pierce) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:49 -0700 Subject: "I loves me some X" Message-ID: I'm not sure to what extent "I loves me some" has been discussed here before (I'm new to the list), but for what it's worth: In my years living in Kentucky and Texas, I never heard the phrase. Then I moved to New York City about 4 years ago and soon started noticing it being used almost exclusively by African-Americans. I figured it had started as a phrase unique to urban black culture, but now I'm hearing it more and more from white kids (teens and college students, mostly) from all different classes, backgrounds, and levels of education. At first they seemed to be using it ironically, but not so much anymore. I think the educated kids still feel obligated to say it in a playful tone at least, but it's said much more matter-of-factly than other street slang phrases that they have picked up. That's not to say that I hear "I loves me some X" often, but enough that I even find myself saying it now and again. Brooke Pierce --------- On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:34 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower wrote: On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted the following, in reference to children's books: it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. [_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. Just a data point. Jesse Sheidlower From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 23 05:31:55 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 01:31:55 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <3D3BD355.19246.354279@localhost> Message-ID: Here's what I adduce from Internet references. I read and saw "MASH" so long ago that I'm not sure whether I remember any of this or not: some seems to ring a faint bell. I don't guarantee it: maybe I can get a look at the novel tomorrow, or maybe somebody else remembers better. In the movie "MASH", Hawkeye and Trapper introduce themselves facetiously as "the pros from Dover", but in the first use of the expression in the movie Hawkeye introduces himself as "the pro from Dover" and introduces his companion as his caddie. They are apparently surgeons between golf games. "Pro" means "golf pro", i.e. the "pro[fessional golfer]" (?) associated with a golf club. Apparently somewhere in the original MASH novel, somebody (Hawkeye?) has a trick for getting free golf course admission (in Maine, I think): introducing himself (to the pro at a golf club) as "the pro from Dover", i.e., as the pro from some other golf club (maybe an imaginary one), thus getting a free game as "professional courtesy". So the movie usage is from the novel and I think there is some background there. The current usage I feel pretty sure comes from the movie. "Pros from Dover" means "[outside/visiting] experts", I guess. -- Doug Wilson From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 14:37:57 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:37:57 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723010713.0245c080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Maybe, just maybe, it's a place name with convenient assonance and doesn't have to be the famous cliffs or the capital of Delaware or the little town in Arkansas. DMLance on 7/23/02 12:31 AM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: > Here's what I adduce from Internet references. I read and saw "MASH" so > long ago that I'm not sure whether I remember any of this or not: some > seems to ring a faint bell. I don't guarantee it: maybe I can get a look at > the novel tomorrow, or maybe somebody else remembers better. > > In the movie "MASH", Hawkeye and Trapper introduce themselves facetiously > as "the pros from Dover", but in the first use of the expression in the > movie Hawkeye introduces himself as "the pro from Dover" and introduces his > companion as his caddie. They are apparently surgeons between golf games. > "Pro" means "golf pro", i.e. the "pro[fessional golfer]" (?) associated > with a golf club. Apparently somewhere in the original MASH novel, somebody > (Hawkeye?) has a trick for getting free golf course admission (in Maine, I > think): introducing himself (to the pro at a golf club) as "the pro from > Dover", i.e., as the pro from some other golf club (maybe an imaginary > one), thus getting a free game as "professional courtesy". > > So the movie usage is from the novel and I think there is some background > there. The current usage I feel pretty sure comes from the movie. "Pros > from Dover" means "[outside/visiting] experts", I guess. > > -- Doug Wilson > From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 14:33:24 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:33:24 -0500 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: <001201c231fc$5f501a80$7001a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: DARE has a full column on this term. Lots of variants with some regional distributions. AHD3's etymology has 'cater' as the original form, a Middle English form based on the French 'catre' referring to the diagonal of four corners. Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are across the intersection rather than across the street from each other. I've heard people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little way down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to take a diagonal path to cross from one to the other. DMLance on 7/22/02 10:52 PM, Millie Webb at millie-webb at CHARTER.NET wrote: > Millie Webb writes: > >> I picked "kitty corner" (kiddy corner, catty corner, cater corner, >> qater corner, etc.). > ~~~~~~ > I have often seen /cater corner/ in writing, but I have never heard > anyone say anything but"katty-corner" or "kitty-corner." Who says " cater > corner" and how is it pronounced? Long _ a_ or short? > A. Murie > > ------------------------ > > I have seen "lay people" write it (and trust me, you don't see it written > often by chance) "kitty corner", "kiddy corner", "catty corner", "cater > corner" and "qater corner" (though this latter was in a HUGE, old, red > dictionary that I seem to recall was an American Heritage Dictionary). I have > heard it "kiddy corner", "kitty corner" (which both sound virtually identical > due to the "alveolar flap" that is a combination of "d" and "t"), "catty > corner", "cat's corner" and "cater corner" (or "kater", if you prefer I spell > it that way, but I assume the person would have spelled it with a "c", > thinking it was from "cat"). Almost everyone I asked about it assumed it came > from the word "cat" in some way. The more "formal" written etymologies I have > seen claim it came from "qater", as in "four", and I did not run into any "lay > people" who agreed they "would have guessed that, but just hadn't thought > about it much". Oops, one more: "king's corner", I have heard too. I assume > because of the children's card game. > > Still Me, Millie > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 15:06:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:06:51 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki (OT: THE SEAGULL) Message-ID: O.T.: THE SEAGULL I visited Anton Checkov's Yalta home just now. There is a seagull above his bed. My local tour guide said that he wrote THE SEAGULL while in Yalta. THE SEAGULL was written in 1896 and revised in 1898. Checkov moved to Yalta in 1899. HE DID NOT WRITE _THE SEAGULL_ IN YALTA! I've never been in Yalta before. I last saw THE SEAGULL about 25 years ago, and it starred Blythe Danner (when she wasn't known as Gwyneth Paltrow's mother). And I know that this tour guide, who's done this tour many times, isn't telling the correct info. Off topic. Just ticks me off! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 14:50:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:50:53 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook or guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. I guess no one wants my money in the Ukraine..."Ukraine" alone is usually used. We walked right past some doughnuts with sugar on them. Then we walked past them again on the way back. So I asked my tour guide, what are those? "Ponchiki," he said. Pause. No other explanation. And I'm thinking: I told this guy about a zillion times now that I'm interested in Ukrainian food. How unhelpful can he be? Is it the other two people on the tour that's throwing everything off? He asked me if I had put down on my tour application that I had special interests and special requests. Maybe I did or maybe I didn't (I don't remember), but when we walk right past this stuff time and time again, when I'm in a restaurant and want to see a menu...WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? PONCHIKI--Not in OED. PAMPUSHKI--Also seen many places and not in OED. www.russianfoods.com/recipes--a good site. Check out the Ukrainian recipes. OED records almost none of them. I have one more day of touring in the Crimean area on Wednesday, and then I have a day in Kiev on Thursday to do research with my helpful guide before flying home on Friday. Don't expect too much on Thursday. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 16:14:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:14:41 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 10:54:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook or > guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. I guess no one wants my money in the > Ukraine As the old proverb says, "Crimea doesn't pay". Yalta go somewhere else. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Jul 23 16:26:56 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:26:56 +0100 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki In-Reply-To: <7C090D52.32A8350B.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Greetings again from Yalta. There is no English-language cookbook > or guidebook to be found ANYWHERE here. Abroad is a foreign country: they do things differently there. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 16:39:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:39:04 EDT Subject: (OT: THE SEAGULL) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 11:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > I visited Anton Checkov's Yalta home just now. There is a seagull above > his bed. My local tour guide said that he wrote THE SEAGULL while in Yalta. > THE SEAGULL was written in 1896 and revised in 1898. Checkov moved to > Yalta in 1899. > HE DID NOT WRITE _THE SEAGULL_ IN YALTA! > I've never been in Yalta before. I last saw THE SEAGULL about 25 years > ago, and it starred Blythe Danner (when she wasn't known as Gwyneth Paltrow's > mother). And I know that this tour guide, who's done this tour many times, > isn't telling the correct info. It could have been worse. Lord Byron (when he wasn't known as the father of Ada, Countess of Lovelace) visited the castle of Chillon, where the Swiss patriot Bonnivard was imprisoned for a number of years. (This was on the same tour on which Byron and his travelling companions held their notorious ghost-story challenge). Byron wrote a famous poem, "The Prisoner of Chillon", based on the misinformation his tour guide told him. Maybe Crimea does pay. You'll have to ask the SevastoPOL. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 23 16:53:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:53:11 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: # the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in # high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern # thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch # since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners # and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. As it just happens, an acquaintance's aperiodic humor e-column arrived yesterday starting with # Let's make sure we've got this clear, right from the start: I love me # some Crocodile Hunter. (Referring to the TV show and now the movie.) I don't know where she's from originally. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 23 17:46:03 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:46:03 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: IIRC, it's just that: In the 1968 novel, the surgeons described themselves as "the pros from Dover" to give the impression that they were the golf pros at the Dover golf course. There is no Dover golf course, naturally, or at least the surgeons didn't have a particular golf course in mind. "Dover" was chosen as suggestive of golf courses in general and likely to fool the local golf pro into believing it was an actual course that he just couldn't place at the moment. In terms of what the phrase means more generally, I suppose it refers to pseudo-experts who give vague, manufactured credentials to imply that they are more knowledgeable than is really the case. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Donald M Lance [mailto:lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:38 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Pros from Dover Maybe, just maybe, it's a place name with convenient assonance and doesn't have to be the famous cliffs or the capital of Delaware or the little town in Arkansas. DMLance From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 23 18:29:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:29:18 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: At 10:27 PM -0400 7/22/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On a bulletin board I subscribe to, a woman in her 30s posted >the following, in reference to children's books: > > it must be so cool when your kids reach an age where you can read and > enjoy some of the same books. not that i don't loves me some _very hungry > caterpiller,_ mind you, but y'know what i mean. > >[_The Very Hungry Caterpiller_ is a classic young-children's book.] > >I told her I had heard it a few times recently, and asked her if it >has any special associations or origins that she knew of; she replied: > > the first time i heard someone use that expression was back when i was in > high school, visiting my uncle in georgia. i assumed it was a southern > thing; a lower class southern thing, specifically. i've heard it a bunch > since then, mostly being said by southerners, but also by non-southerners > and/or more educated people who were using it ironically. > I found a number of "I (just) love me some X" on the web, after hearing Jack on "Will and Grace" use it. My interest stemmed from the fact that (as Dannenberg & Webelhuth have observed) the "personal dative" or "Southern double object" construction is used only when the "real" object (not the one represented by the co-referential non-reflexive pronoun) is quantified: I'm gonna buy me {a new pick-up/some baseball caps/*baseball caps}. What's interesting about these proper name cases is the appearance of "some" that seems to be there just to satisfy the constraint. Or is there a difference in meaning--does the "some" really bring in partitivity or something else? More recently, watching a video, I came across a third person use: ========== My husband used to *love* him some Jack Daniels. --Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's character) in Monster's Ball. =========== Leticia is both southern (black) and lower-class, and I'd guess that a number of the postings are from southerners, but I have no idea about class, really, especially for Grace, that peeing cat. I must say, the trailer park entry and the one about Old Cletus are pretty suggestive (at least of how this construction is conceptualized). The non-reflexive in this position (especially with single-object verbs like "love") is much more frequent in southern speech, although in first person it's not quite as much of a diagnostic as it would be in third person. I include them here for possible interest. (I just went with the standard agreement and didn't check on "loves me some", but I'll be happy to.) --Larry ============== http://www.jolenestrailerpark.com/Storys/3.htm I just love me some Jerry Springer. I don't know why so many people are trying to "Clean up" his act. Don't they know half the people in the world act this way? http://www.hayllar.com/dec00/51200.html I just love me some cats! Don't you just LOVe cats?! ? Grace keeps to herself these days. And her crime of the month is to pee in my big house plant. "I love me some plants. The green sets off my beauty. And the soil is just right for a little wee." http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/staff/Chanile.asp Favorite Actresses: Drew Bareymore, Jennifer Garner (just love me some ALIAS!), Meg Ryan (not with Russell Crowe though) http://www.bitchypoo.com/2001/March/08.html In fact, I just read the first of the Kat Colorado series, which my beloved Moira sent me for my birthday. I just love me some female kick-ass detectives, and when the hell is Sue Grafton going to put the next one out? http://daylee.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$76 I?was so glad to see to see Denzel Washington win for his potrayal of Rubin Carter in The Hurricane that I whooped out loud. I did, I did. I guess I just love me some Denzel. http://members.aol.com/unclrdcstr/redmas.htm Anyway, back to Christmas.........long about this time Cletus Henderson , Bovina's daddy,came out of the kitchen and yelled "Dinner's ready, Y'all come on and eayt." Old Cletus always did cook up a mean old meal. "I gots some cornbread, some oyster stew, and roast Coon with cheese." Ahhhhh, there ain't nothin that goes better as Christmas dinner than Coon and Cheese. Umm, ummm. I just love me some Coon and Cheese. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 23 19:30:29 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:30:29 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books Message-ID: The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 20:01:28 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:01:28 -0400 Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: DID YOU KNOW? Some finicky foodies claim that Chicken Kiev has nothing to do with the Ukrainian capital, having been so named by restaurants in New York. (Found on Google.) I made an internet search with my tour guide just now. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian libraries aren't up to speed. Most online catalogs don't have pre-1990 books. On the plus side, we did look at the Taras Shevchenko Scientific Society Library, 63 Fourth Avenue, New York City. It has one book (cooking) from 1937, and one 1990 reprint of a 1913 book. This beats the LOC and NYPL! O.T.: "Crimea doesn't pay." Ooh, I owe Landau for this one. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:01:42 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > =========== > Leticia is both southern (black) and lower-class, and I'd guess that > a number of the postings are from southerners, but I have no idea > about class, really, especially for Grace, that peeing cat. I must > say, the trailer park entry and the one about Old Cletus are pretty > suggestive (at least of how this construction is conceptualized). > The non-reflexive in this position (especially with single-object > verbs like "love") is much more frequent in southern speech, although > in first person it's not quite as much of a diagnostic as it would be > in third person. I include them here for possible interest. (I just > went with the standard agreement and didn't check on "loves me some", > but I'll be happy to.) > > --Larry A couple of observations: Most of the occurences I hear/see of this phenom seem to me to be affected, self-conscious performance. It seems to have a (primarily) humorous & (secondarily) mildly intensive affect when spoken by people not of the social-regional background that it seems to be attributed to (which people account for a vast majority of my experience with it). I have heard this from college students from such far-flung places as El Lay, Lon Guyland, and Brazil. In these instances it appears to me to be some sort of fad speech. My earliest recollection of hearing this from a young, middle-class, non-southerner goes back to at least 1996. "Up" is often included in the construction - "I('m gonna) [verb] me UP some [direct object]." As in, "I loves me up some Dave Matthews Band," and, "I'm gonna eat me up some ice cream." From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:15:19 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:15:19 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The so-called Army Method of teaching foreign languages was developed in WWII in order to train military personnel (esp. future spies) to speak "strategic" FLs. This evolved into the Audio-lingual Method (ALM) used in high schools and colleges for the next several decades (and even yet in many places). Linguists were called upon to write textbooks and train teachers, and the method developed was based on the descriptive and contrastive grammar approach common since the Bloomfield era. Charles Fries and Robert Lado at the U of Michigan pioneered this new "scientific" method (Lado's term), and the "applied linguistics" field was born. The language teaching field has come a long way since then, but you see the same frantic call now for people who can speak Arabic, Persian, Urdu, etc.--after many years of ignoring them in FL departments. At 03:30 PM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: >The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung >Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, >including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of >the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this >book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive >Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The >copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). > >This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all >the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? > >Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 23 20:30:41 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:30:41 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: >El Lay, Lon Guyland ~~~~~~~~ Hey, you got speech recognition software? AM From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 23 20:24:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:24:55 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki Message-ID: In a message dated 7/23/02 4:01:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > O.T.: "Crimea doesn't pay." Ooh, I owe Landau for this one. Before your thoughts turn to revenge, you should make sure to see the re-enactment of the Charge of the Heavy Brigade at the Battle of Baklava. The "Crimea" gag was from an African-American woman who liked to use the pen-name "Nina Rasrushen". The "Yalta" gag was from a Russian-speaking anthropologist named Costello. I have no idea if either are still in existence, but in the 1970's the two largest Russian-language bookstores in the world were in the US---Victor Kamkin's in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC and Amtorg's bookstore (I forget the name, possibly "International") in New York. - Jim Landau (heading for the bomb shelter) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Jul 23 20:38:16 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:38:16 -0700 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I find LSA/ACLS manuals for Chinese (1945), Melanesian pidgin (1943), Spoken Korean (1947), Spoken Japanese (1945), Colloquial Dutch (1944), Spoken Dutch (1944) [I'm not sure how this differs from Colloquial Dutch--ed.], Spoken Burmese (1945), Spoken Danish (1945), Spoken Malay (1945), Spoken Thai (1945), Spoken Serbo-Croatian (1945), Spoken Russian (1945), Spoken German (1940?), Spoken Spanish (1940?), Spoken Turkish (1944) [my old textbook]. Many appeared in the "Holt spoken language series". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > The Classics Department, my neighbors here on the 11th floor of McClung > Tower, are having a book giveaway today. I picked up some Greek texts, > including a volume called _Spoken Greek_ (Henry Holt, 1945). The verso of > the title page contains a statement that "The Armed Forces edition of this > book was published by the Linguistic Society of America and the Intensive > Language Program of the American Council of Learned Societies." (The > copyright is 1945, Linguistic Society of America). > > This is part of the history of LSA that I was not familiar with. Were all > the WWII Armed Forces language books published by LSA/ACLS? > > Bethany > From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 23 20:39:11 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723010713.0245c080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Here's the origin of the expression, I believe: Richard Hooker, "M*A*S*H", 1968: Ch. 8: pp. 71-2: <> So that's why "Dover": it's a place-name which is very ambiguous. A little later in the book, Hawkeye and Trapper John are rousted from their golf in Korea and sent to do thoracic surgery in Japan; they arrive unshaven, dressed (apparently) in outlandish borrowed Korean clothing, and toting golf clubs; they make a number of silly wisecracks, and request the patient's X-ray films (p. 77): <<"All right," Trapper said. "Somebody trot out the latest pictures of this kid with the shell fragment in his chest." No one moved. "Snap it up!" yelled Hawkeye. "We're the pros from Dover, and the last pictures we saw must be forty-eight hours old by now.">> A little later (p. 78), confronted by a fierce nurse: <<"Don't get mad, ma'am," Hawkeye said. "All we want is our starting time." "Get out!" she screamed. "Look, mother," Trapper said. "I'm the pro from Dover. Me and my greenskeeper want to crack that kid's chest and get out to the course. ....">> So what the expression SHOULD mean is "frivolous grotesque-looking visitors with doubtful credentials", but I suppose this concept is implicit whenever outside experts are called in. Apparently "pros from Dover" is used nowadays to mean simply "outside experts" or sometimes even simply "experts". -- Doug Wilson From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 23 21:44:10 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723160819.024949e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. (To keep a language element in the discussion.) DMLance on 7/23/02 3:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson at douglas at NB.NET wrote: > Here's the origin of the expression, I believe: > > Richard Hooker, "M*A*S*H", 1968: Ch. 8: pp. 71-2: > > < attention to other games, but during medical school, his internship and his > residency he had played golf as often as possible. Joining a club had been > out of the question, and even payment of green fees was economically > unsound. Therefore he developed a technique which frequently allowed him > the privilege of playing some public and a number of unostentatious private > courses. He would walk confidently into a pro shop, smile, comment upon the > nice condition of the course, explain that he was just passing through and > that he was Joe, Dave or Jack Somebody, the pro from Dover. This resulted, > about eight times out of ten, in an invitation to play for free. If forced > into conversation, he became the pro from Dover, New Hampshire, > Massachusetts, New Jersey, England, Ohio, Delaware, Tennessee, or > Dover-Foxcroft, Maine, whichever seemed safest.>> > > So that's why "Dover": it's a place-name which is very ambiguous. > > A little later in the book, Hawkeye and Trapper John are rousted from their > golf in Korea and sent to do thoracic surgery in Japan; they arrive > unshaven, dressed (apparently) in outlandish borrowed Korean clothing, and > toting golf clubs; they make a number of silly wisecracks, and request the > patient's X-ray films (p. 77): > > <<"All right," Trapper said. "Somebody trot out the latest pictures of this > kid with the shell fragment in his chest." > No one moved. > "Snap it up!" yelled Hawkeye. "We're the pros from Dover, and the last > pictures we saw must be forty-eight hours old by now.">> > > A little later (p. 78), confronted by a fierce nurse: > > <<"Don't get mad, ma'am," Hawkeye said. "All we want is our starting time." > "Get out!" she screamed. > "Look, mother," Trapper said. "I'm the pro from Dover. Me and my > greenskeeper want to crack that kid's chest and get out to the course. ....">> > > So what the expression SHOULD mean is "frivolous grotesque-looking visitors > with doubtful credentials", but I suppose this concept is implicit whenever > outside experts are called in. Apparently "pros from Dover" is used > nowadays to mean simply "outside experts" or sometimes even simply "experts". > > -- Doug Wilson > From caman at AMLAW.COM Tue Jul 23 22:03:20 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:03:20 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: plus Dover has more soul! (or, is that sole?) > ---------- > From: Donald M Lance > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:44 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from > Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than > Dovers. > (To keep a language element in the discussion.) > > DMLance > > From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Jul 23 23:27:32 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 19:27:32 -0400 Subject: LSA/ACLS language books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, A. Maberry wrote: >I find LSA/ACLS manuals for Chinese (1945), Melanesian pidgin (1943), >Spoken Korean (1947), Spoken Japanese (1945), Colloquial Dutch (1944), >Spoken Dutch (1944) [I'm not sure how this differs from Colloquial >Dutch--ed.], Spoken Burmese (1945), Spoken Danish (1945), Spoken Malay >(1945), Spoken Thai (1945), Spoken Serbo-Croatian (1945), Spoken Russian >(1945), Spoken German (1940?), Spoken Spanish (1940?), Spoken Turkish >(1944) [my old textbook]. Many appeared in the "Holt spoken language >series". Thanks - they must have published all of them. Bethany From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Jul 23 23:38:49 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Donald" > Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are across > the intersection rather than across the street from each other. I've heard > people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little way > down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to take a > diagonal path to cross from one to the other. Re your reply and the other person's inquiry: I've never heard anything but "kitty-corner" around here(Seattle and presumably the rest of the Pacific NW). I, too, understand that it was originally "cater-corner", but have never heard anyone of my acquaintance pronounce it that way. Re to point 2: It's my understanding that "kitty corner" refers to diagonal direction, as "the building you're looking for is kitty corner to Starbuck's" or the like IOW, it's on the opposite side of the street(or whatever) to the building or object you are using as a directional reference. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 23 23:55:33 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:55:33 -0700 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: <000901c232a2$1979f930$1ba2f5d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I seem to remember first hearing it as "catty-corner" but then hearing "kitty-corner" more often and gradually adjusting my own usage. This shift may have coincided with our move from So. California to Oregon when I was in 5th grade, but I wouldn't swear to it. PMc --On Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:38 PM -0700 Anne Gilbert wrote: > Donald" > >> Building that are kitty-corner (the form I use) from each other are >> across the intersection rather than across the street from each other. >> I've > heard >> people use the term to refer to buildings that are across and a little >> way down a street from each other, so that a jaywalker would have to >> take a diagonal path to cross from one to the other. > > Re your reply and the other person's inquiry: > > I've never heard anything but "kitty-corner" around here(Seattle and > presumably the rest of the Pacific NW). I, too, understand that it was > originally "cater-corner", but have never heard anyone of my acquaintance > pronounce it that way. > > Re to point 2: It's my understanding that "kitty corner" refers to > diagonal direction, as "the building you're looking for is kitty corner to > Starbuck's" or the like IOW, it's on the opposite side of the street(or > whatever) to the building or object you are using as a directional > reference. > Anne G > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.377 / Virus Database: 211 - Release Date: 7/15/2002 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Jul 23 12:18:10 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:18:10 -0400 Subject: the city so nice they named it twice Message-ID: There is no New York City... there's only New York, N.Y. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 24 01:20:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:20:41 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) > >DMLance > Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 01:32:50 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:32:50 EDT Subject: Ponchiki & Pampushki and Nordikski Message-ID: In a message dated 07/23/2002 4:01:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Some finicky foodies claim that Chicken Kiev has nothing to do with the > Ukrainian capital, having been so named by restaurants in New York. The OED2 has a 1950 citation for "Chicken cutlets Kiev" and the following 1964 multicultural citation for "Chicken Kiev": "I had lasagne (sp?) and followed it with chicken Kiev" from a book entitled "Funeral in Berlin". I can make the smallest possible antedating. Bob Hope "I Owe Russia $1200" published in 1963 has, if I remember correctly, part of a page devoted to Chicken Kiev, of which his party ate so much while in the Soviet Union that they allegedly could have flapped their way back to the States. Sorry, Jesse, but I don't have the book so you'll have to take care of locating the citation. Hopefully somebody can find "matruchka". I am positive there is a circa 1970 citation somewhere in my home library, but darned if I can find it. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 04:34:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:34:32 -0400 Subject: Chicken Kiev (Re: Ponchiki & Pampushki and Nordikski) Message-ID: There are some "Chicken Kiev" citations from the 1930s in the ADS-L archives, but I always try to do better. A Google search turns up a lot of the George Bush "Chicken Kiev" jokes. FUN YALTA FACT: There is a statue of Lenin here, in Lenin Square. Just opposite the statue is a McDonald's. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Jul 24 15:47:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:47:09 -0700 Subject: A giggle for Wednesday Message-ID: Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of "Oregon Chai"). I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 24 16:54:28 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:54:28 -0400 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a pronunciation for it! A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 24 16:56:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:56:34 -0700 Subject: catercorner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say > "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a > pronunciation for it! I use it, rhyming it with "latter." But this is an adult usage that started when I learned the etymology of the word. Growing up in NJ, it was either "kittycorner" or "cattycorner," depending on whom you spoke to. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 17:29:05 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:29:05 -0400 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I've heard /kae:t at k)rn at r/ or something like that, but definitely r-less in the second syllable. Also /kItik)rn at r/, but never /keit at r.../ or /kaeti.../ or /keiti.../. Perhaps the 'catercorner' spelling is British or Bostonian?? Catteh-corner is possibly the more frequent pronunciation of the two I recall having heard. Dave Wilton wrote: > > > I'm beginning to think that no one has ever heard anyone actually say > > "cater-corner," since no one has ventured to give a > > pronunciation for it! > > I use it, rhyming it with "latter." > > But this is an adult usage that started when I learned the etymology of the > word. Growing up in NJ, it was either "kittycorner" or "cattycorner," > depending on whom you spoke to. -- ............................................. . D r e w D a n i e l s o n . . . . Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar . . Carnegie Mellon University ? ECE Department . . 5000 Forbes Avenue ? Pittsburgh, PA 15213 . . +1 412 268-2188 Voice ? +1 412 268-3890 Fax . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ . ............................................. To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful. -- Robert A. Heinlein From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:31:02 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:31:02 EDT Subject: catercorner Message-ID: I've never heard catercorner. Cattycorner and cattywampus are the two that I've (and presumably, So.IL has) got, with kitty corner falling in somewhere as a "cute" variant. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham In Transition... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 24 17:33:01 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 12:33:01 -0500 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: >At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of >the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) >announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of >"Oregon Chai"). > >I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." > >Peter Mc. > This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. Gerald Cohen From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:45:31 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:45:31 EDT Subject: catercorner: in DARE Message-ID: Perhaps someone has mentioned this, but for terms like "catercorner" and "kitty-corner" the comprehensive detailed reference is our Dictionary of American Regional English. It says "catercorner" is chiefly South and South Midlands, while "kitty-corner" is chiefly North, North Midland, and West. There's a map of "kitty-corner" distribution in volume 3. There are also entries for the related terms "catawampus" and "kitty-wampus." Look for DARE volume 4 this fall. You can win a free copy if you know the answers to the quiz on the back page of the May 2002 ADS newsletter. - Allan Metcalf From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 17:45:30 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:45:30 EDT Subject: Fulbright Grants Deadline Approaching Message-ID: Here's a public service announcement that you might find usefully self-serving. - Allan Metcalf --------------------------- Fulbright Scholar Application Deadline Approaching Put your professional experience to good use--join the ranks of Fulbright Scholars and share your knowledge with the global community. Every year the Fulbright Scholar Program sends over 800 faculty and professionals abroad. Awards range from two months to an academic year. The deadline for submission is quickly approaching; all applications must be in our office by August 1 for the 2003-04 competition. Next year's competition opens March 1. For information, visit our Web site at www.cies.org. Or contact: The Council for International Exchange of Scholars 3007 Tilden Street, N.W. - Suite 5L Washington, D.C. 20008 Phone: 202-686-7877 E-mail: apprequest at cies.iie. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 24 18:03:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:03:32 -0400 Subject: pronunciation of Lars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:31 AM 7/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >#Actually, "Lars" with a devoiced final consonant is already a >#modification from the Norwegian /sh/ (for "rs"), but, just like >#Polish "rz" (which is simply /zh/, we don't seem to be able to resist >#those /r/s, so we get two stages of modification /lash/ -> /lars/ -> >#/larz/. > >Isn't that /sh/ actually a retroflex? Or is that only in Swedish? > >I think that the process you're positing is more complicated than >necessary for most US speakers outside of the Norwegian settlement area >in the upper Midwest. I *read* the name "Lars" in many sources long, >long before I ever heard any authentic pronunciation of it, and the >default English phonemic realization of that orthography is /larz/. >Spelling pronunciation is the simplest explanation. > >-- Mark A. Mandel I asked a linguistics student from Denmark (who has frequent contact with Norwegians) about /sh/ in "Lars," and he confirmed Mark's comment that it's really a retroflex sound with /r/ coloring instead. But the final consonant is /s/, which is all I heard growing up around lots of Larses and Larse/ons. The change to /z/ still sounds strange to me, just as pronouncing "Knute" without initial /kn/ does. Beverly Olson Flanigan (40 years out of Minnesota but still a Viking) From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 24 18:14:35 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 11:14:35 -0700 Subject: pronunciation of Lars Message-ID: I am Norwegian by birth and most of my education, so I'll take the liberty of weighing in here. Lars in Norwegian is pronounced with an unvoiced "sh" sound at the end and with a retroflex "L." The vowel is an elongated "ah" sound, like in "psalm." The "r" is completely silent in all dialects I can think of. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 24 18:31:20 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:31:20 EDT Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 7/24/02 1:44:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes: > This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives > from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that > despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the > Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was > sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is > Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. I had a cousin of a cousin who was originally named Kahn. He became a labor organizer for, I think, the CIO in the South and found he wasn't having any success. So he changed his name to "Conn" and instantly became much more successful (or so I heard the story). Years later, when he was running a community newspaper, he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 24 20:03:36 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:03:36 -0400 Subject: A giggle for Wednesday In-Reply-To: <148733.3236489229@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of #the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) #announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of #"Oregon Chai"). I've been hoping for a kosher tea-based drink called "Chai Chai", pronounced [xaI tSaI]. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 24 20:07:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:07:22 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I had a cousin of a cousin who was originally named Kahn. He became a labor #organizer for, I think, the CIO in the South and found he wasn't having any #success. So he changed his name to "Conn" and instantly became much more #successful (or so I heard the story). Years later, when he was running a #community newspaper, he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to #come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No #matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." On the telephone, which is which, and how could they tell? -- Mark From douglas at NB.NET Wed Jul 24 20:11:41 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:11:41 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <3D3DB626.D0EAFFB7@cmu.edu> Message-ID: Is there really a dialect where this "love [objective pronoun] [something]" is used conventionally? I find "I stopped and got me some smokes" quite ordinary and natural, but I've never encountered anything like "I really love me some smokes". The only environment in which I would find such a construction even borderline natural would be along the lines of "I loved me some girls" and I think this is a different "love" (cf. "met all the girls and I loved myself a few" [IIRC] in the song "One Toke Over the Line"). To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. As for the qualifier, consider: I stopped and bought cigarettes. I stopped and bought some cigarettes. I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. * I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) -- Doug Wilson From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:12:43 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:12:43 -0500 Subject: Execution viewed as wedding Message-ID: Last Friday I sent a message about executions sometimes being viewed as a wedding. An offshoot theme is that the al Qaeda terrorists regard their martyrdom-acts as a wedding. Clear evidence of this offshoot-theme is presented in the German news magazine _Spiegel_, 27 May 2002, pp. 126-128, (title): "Operation Gro?e Hochzeit" (= Operation Big Wedding). Here's a translation of a relevant paragraph, p. 127: "In spring of 2001 the Jordanian secret service had intercepted [the message(s)] that al-Qaeda was preparing in the U.S.the 'Operation al-Urus al Kabir,' Operation Big Wedding. It was known that one or several airplanes were to be used for it. The warning to the American friends was lost ["ging unter" = sunk, was submerged] in the maelstrom of news. Likewise the notification from a Moroccan undercover agent that Osama Bin Laden's people wanted to strike New York with a 'large scale operation'." Gerald Cohen From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:24:05 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:24:05 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) I think this should read, "Does y'all agrees y'allse'fs with them there little stars" ===== From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:33:59 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:33:59 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmmmm. Til I was pretty old I thought O'Possum was a kind of Irish joke name for possum. dInIs >>At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >>Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of >>the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the (female) >>announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land of >>"Oregon Chai"). >> >>I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." >> >>Peter Mc. >> > > >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:37:42 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:37:42 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724144947.024f32a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >All your *'s a perfectly grammatical for me. dInIs >Is there really a dialect where this "love [objective pronoun] [something]" >is used conventionally? I find "I stopped and got me some smokes" quite >ordinary and natural, but I've never encountered anything like "I really >love me some smokes". The only environment in which I would find such a >construction even borderline natural would be along the lines of "I loved >me some girls" and I think this is a different "love" (cf. "met all the >girls and I loved myself a few" [IIRC] in the song "One Toke Over the Line"). > >To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like >caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an >established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by >replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. >But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where >everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. > >As for the qualifier, consider: > >I stopped and bought cigarettes. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes. >I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought me cigarettes. >I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. >I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. >I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. >* I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. >I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. >I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. > >* Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:46:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:46:51 -0700 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724144947.024f32a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) This is the only one that sounds odd to me. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Jul 24 20:53:07 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:53:07 -0400 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > > >To me these "I love[s] me [something]" examples on the Web etc. look like > >caricatures or imitations of some dialect rather than examples of an > >established usage ... maybe analogous to the effort to sound "southern" by > >replacing "you" with "y'all" in absolutely all contexts singular or plural. > >But then maybe it's just that I haven't been to [quaint locality X] where > >everybody's been doing these things routinely for centuries. I agree re "caricatures or imitations", but I would argue that the construction is well-established as an available alternative among certain speech cohorts. I get the feeling that it functions much in the same vein and to the same effect as "you done good", which was discussed here some time back. I can't imagine that spontaneous acts of cleverness are being the nearly 6000 incidents of "love me some" indexed at google.com. Even accounting for a relatively high incidence of 'me' as direct object in this string (2 of the first 10 hits generated), the dative 'me' (8 of the first 10 hits) seems to show some signs of being an 'estblished imitation'. From caman at AMLAW.COM Wed Jul 24 20:59:31 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:59:31 -0400 Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: I recently disabused an adult, named Patrick, that the childrens book titled Pat The Bunny was not about a rabbit named Pat(rick). Despite his advanced age (30-odd), Patrick was crestfallen. > ---------- > From: Dennis R. Preston > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun > > Hmmmmm. Til I was pretty old I thought O'Possum was a kind of Irish > joke name for possum. > > dInIs > > > > > >>At 8:47 AM -0700 7/24/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >>Yesterday afternoon an All Things Considered, NPR announced the death of > >>the famous writer "Chai M. Potok." I don't remember whether the > (female) > >>announncer was from national NPR or our local affiliate OPB (in the land > of > >>"Oregon Chai"). > >> > >>I suppose he'll now be referred to as "the latte Chai M. Potok." > >> > >>Peter Mc. > >> > > > > > >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives > >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that > >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the > >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was > >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is > >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 24 21:48:35 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:48:35 -0500 Subject: finna Message-ID: The discussion of "I loves me some X" as potentially a hypervernacularism has reminded me of a use of 'finna' that didn't seem right to me. The context was HBO's new cop show, The Wire. A youngish, thugish African-American character who is cooperating with the cops asks something like " Are you finna go after them?" I'm sorry I don't have the exact quote. What struck me about this usage is that the cops were not immediately preparing to go after the bad guys. The usage in this context seemed to me equivalent to "Are you planning to go after them" and NOT "Are you about to go after them". I'm not a native speaker of "finna/fixin' to" but isn't immediacy required for it's usage? Maybe this feature doesn't operate the same way in AAVE as in white vernaculars that use it. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 01:29:51 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? For that matter, can you imagine anyone stupid enough to believe that anyone would be stupid enough to open the file that was attached to this message--and then follow the directions? The message: << Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm.It's very dangerous by corrupting your files. Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most common AV software can't detect or clean it. We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus. You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your PC. NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV monitor maybe cry when you run it. If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'. If you have any question,please mail to me. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-st14.mail.aol.com (rly-st14.mail.aol.com [172.20.75.167]) by air-xa02.mail.aol.com (v86_r1.16) with ESMTP id MAILINXA24-0724190525; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:05:25 -0400 Received: from rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by rly-st14.mail.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id SAA22864 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v86_r1.15) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD510-0724183812; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:38:12 -0400 Received: from Nirnmm ([207.191.206.34]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with SMTP id <20020724223748.HHSV16779.out005.verizon.net at Nirnmm> for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:37:48 -0500 From: deviljunky To: RonButters at aol.com Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=H50dLrr1kuDq7CDo3NbMjE38 Message-Id: <20020724223748.HHSV16779.out005.verizon.net at Nirnmm> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:38:11 -0500>> From douglas at NB.NET Thu Jul 25 02:18:31 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:18:31 -0400 Subject: finna In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994340C9@col-mailnode03.col. missouri.edu> Message-ID: >I'm not a native speaker of "finna/fixin' to" but isn't immediacy required >for its usage? I don't think so. This may be a regional expression but the region must be very large. My Webster's Third doesn't say "slang" or "informal" or anything, although "informal" seems right to me. AHD4 says "chiefly southern US". Webster's Third seems to equate "fixing to" = "getting set to"/"being about to"/"preparing to"/"intending to". I think the basic sense is "preparing to". Some things don't take much preparation, so immediacy is implied: "He looked like he was fixing to throw up, so I stepped back quickly." Other things take longer, and I (Northron though I am) wouldn't blink at something like: "My son's fixing to apply to medical school next year." -- Doug Wilson From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 25 02:27:23 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 22:27:23 -0400 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? It must be a carefully targeted mailing. D From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 03:22:52 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 23:22:52 EDT Subject: Sprezzatura Message-ID: As it happens, I just received in the mail the Bas Bleu book catalog. On the last page is a review of "Sprezzatura: Fifty Ways Italian Genius Shaped the World." According to the review, it means "the art of effortless mastery." Steve Boatti From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:17:30 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:17:30 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > IIRC, it's just that: In the 1968 novel, the surgeons described themselves as "the pros from Dover" to give the impression that they were the golf pros at the Dover golf course. There is no Dover golf course, naturally, or at least the surgeons didn't have a particular golf course in mind. "Dover" was chosen as suggestive of golf courses in general and likely to fool the local golf pro into believing it was an actual course that he just couldn't place at the moment. > > In terms of what the phrase means more generally, I suppose it refers to pseudo-experts who give vague, manufactured credentials to imply that they are more knowledgeable than is really the case. > > John Baker > Gee, you mean like, Bruno Bettelheim? When I think back on how much damage he did to so many children and their families.... It has recently come up again for me. Did you know his PhD was actually in art history or something, and had nothing to do with psychology? And everyone swallowed his claims that his credentials had been lost during the war for thirty years. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:27:11 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:27:11 -0500 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get "virus warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duane Campbell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:27 PM Subject: Re: stupid virus-spreader tricks > On Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:29:51 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > > Can you imagine anyone stupid enough to fall for this one? > > It must be a carefully targeted mailing. > > D From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Jul 25 06:32:28 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:32:28 -0500 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Just thought I would mention that I have never heard "catawampus" used like "cat's corner". I have always inferred the meaning as "crooked, mixed up, or FUBAR" (though from people too polite to use the latter, if they have any idea what it stands for). And yes, I have heard "catercorner" regularly (kat-ter-corner). I spent my first twenty-plus years in St Paul, MN, then ten plus years in SE Michigan. Mostly though, I heard it "kiddy corner" in MN. "catty corner" was one I hadn't heard until the last five years or so. I guess I have led a sheltered life after all (only lived in three different States and three countries including the US). -- Millie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 07:55:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 03:55:57 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism Message-ID: CORPORATE SOCIALISM Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get the money and we get the risk. MISC. It's a 2 1/2 hour drive to the Yalta airport, and a 2 1/2 flight. So it looks like I'll have no library time today, and that it'll take two days to get home. I have a 2 p.m. flight on Friday, and I'll arrive in New York, New York (so nice they named it twice) before 8 p.m. Not even a "BORN TO BE WILD--YALTA" T-shirt anywhere here! From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Jul 25 12:28:19 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:28:19 -0400 Subject: finna In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020724214806.024bc0a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Doug Wilson said: >> This may be a regional expression but the region must be very large. My Webster's Third doesn't say "slang" or "informal" or anything, although "informal" seems right to me. AHD4 says "chiefly southern US". << Point of information on Web 3rd (assuming you mean the Merriam 3rd Unabridged) -- it should not be looked to for rulings on register. It is often silent on this, one of the reasons it received so much flak when it came out. No labels are given for many forms that ARE labeled in other dicts. Web 3rd's silence in many of these cases is not to be taken as indicating that the form is typical or nationwide. btw, I just discovered that Web 3rd is now available online, for an annual or monthly fee. Frank Abate From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Jul 25 12:50:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:50:26 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism In-Reply-To: <0E8D4CB2.126770EB.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #CORPORATE SOCIALISM # # Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. #Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, #pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past #week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the #socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get #the money and we get the risk. I expected that sentence to end in "shaft". -- Mark A. Mandel From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Jul 25 13:43:34 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:43:34 EDT Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: In a message dated 7/25/2002 2:28:52 AM, millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes: << Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get "virus warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie >> I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general literacy. This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as a second language or someone with only elementary control of written English. From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 25 14:22:58 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:22:58 -0400 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: Yeah, concept WAS pretty stupid too. > ---------- > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 9:43 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: stupid virus-spreader tricks > > In a message dated 7/25/2002 2:28:52 AM, millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes: > > << Unfortunately, I can imagine someone falling for it. I regularly get > "virus > > warning" hoaxes from well-meaning acquaintances who are only recently on > > their way to computer literacy (especially Internet-literacy). I try to > > send them a link to a hoax site in return. -- Millie >> > > I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general > literacy. > This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as > a > second language or someone with only elementary control of written > English. > > From caman at AMLAW.COM Thu Jul 25 14:35:17 2002 From: caman at AMLAW.COM (Catherine Aman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:35:17 -0400 Subject: Corporate Socialism Message-ID: I'm not sure I've forgiven Nader for his role in giving us President W --- or at least not sure I've forgiven him sufficiently to be amused by anything he writes. > ---------- > From: Mark A Mandel > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:50 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Corporate Socialism > > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > #CORPORATE SOCIALISM > # > # Not a new term, but it's been given new life with all the scandals. > #Ralph Nader's opinion article in the WASHINGTON POST, 18 July 2002, > #pg. A29, on "Corporate Socialism" has been widely quoted in the past > #week. Nader talks about "the privatization of profit and the > #socialization of risks and misconduct." In other words, the CEOs get > #the money and we get the risk. > > I expected that sentence to end in "shaft". > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Jul 25 19:36:37 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:36:37 -0500 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020723022734.GA13462@panix.com> Message-ID: Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what "redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean "a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to "reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. -Mai From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Jul 25 19:44:06 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mai Kuha said: >Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what >"redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat >X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean >"a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the >web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to >"reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if >bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. Actually, I think of it as meaning "revisited". I'm sure this understanding was based on a contextual inference and not a dictionary consultation. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Jul 25 19:51:49 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:36:37PM -0500, Mai Kuha wrote: > Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what > "redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat > X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean > "a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the > web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to > "reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if > bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. Jesse Sheidlower From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Jul 25 20:42:46 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:42:46 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Reading Jesse's "'I loves me some X' redux", I've realized I don't know what >"redux" means. In the Vegetarian Times, "X redux" seems to mean "reduced-fat >X", in the ADS-L archive it's almost always used in a way that seems to mean >"a brief comment on X", and a quick google suggests that elsewhere on the >web it often means something like "summary of X". So it refers to >"reduction" of all kinds, is that it? Or maybe it's what a person does if >bullets are still flying after ducking the first time. > >-Mai ~~~~~~~~ >>From Latin:/ reduco, reduxi, reductum/. To bring back, or lead back. [Trollope wrote a book titled /Phineas Redux/, to follow up the story of his character, Phineas Finn, from the book of the same name.] A. Murie From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Thu Jul 25 22:55:35 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:55:35 -0400 Subject: "X redux" Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower writes: > Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like > "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," > etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was > originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more > recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. D From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 03:12:59 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:12:59 -0500 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Thanks, everyone. There was no entry in the dictionaries I happen to own. mk From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Jul 26 03:36:27 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:36:27 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: On 7/25/02 18:55, "Duane Campbell" wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower > writes: > >> Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like >> "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," >> etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was >> originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more >> recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. > > It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. It's been a pet word of magazine writers for about a decade, along with the devices such as "Mr. So-and-so needed a machin-truc and didn't know where to turn. Enter xyz." "Mrs. So-and-so said she has 'interests' (read 'cabana boys') which occupy her while her husband is away." Call it "coy world play." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 03:43:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:43:02 -0400 Subject: "X redux" In-Reply-To: <20020725.211035.-377957.14.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 6:55 PM -0400 7/25/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0400 Jesse Sheidlower >writes: > >> Various dictionaries do include this, with definitions like >> "(used postpositively) brought back, revisited, returned," >> etc., which is certainly how I intended it. I believe it was >> originally in titles, e.g. Trollope's _Phineas Redux,_ more >> recently Updike's _Rabbit Redux_ and so forth. > >It is also a word much favored by Newsweek. And by me; I gave a paper a couple of years ago on "Welsh rarebit" as etymythology, called of course "Rarebit Redux". larry From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Jul 26 06:41:17 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:41:17 -0700 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <200207250400.g6P40M6S020417@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: >This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! Indigo Som indigo at well.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 26 13:11:26 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:11:26 -0700 Subject: Mondegreens--Marie, soda, positive anymore Message-ID: Some recent posts brought to mind two mondegreens. First, my dad, growing up in SW Philly, had a cousin who he thought was named Armory. It turned out that her name was Marie but every one called her "our Marie" to distinguish her from all the other Maries out there. Second, I was a big fan of the Banana Splits tv show growing up, especially the catchy theme song (also covered by the punk band The Dickies). I always thought it went: One banana, two banana, three banana, four Four bananas make a lot of soda anymore. And was going to post this as a great use of positive anymore. However, when checking the lyrics on the internet I found out they're really: One banana, two banana, three banana, four Four bananas make a bunch and so do many more Ugh! Anyway, thought y'all might enjoy those. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Jul 26 16:13:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:13:23 -0500 Subject: Kochbuch =?iso-8859-1?Q?f=FCr?= Israeliten Message-ID: Two of my campus' reference librarians worked on this, but it seems the book is no longer in existence, at least not in the Berlin Library. The book is listed in the catalogue, but the catalogue also specifies that one has to check whether individual items are actually available. In the case of Kochbuch f?r Israeliten, the message my librarian received from the State Library in Berlin is that the book was lost due to the war. With a moment's reflection I realized that as a Jewish cookbook, it was almost certainly one of the items taken off the shelves and burned by Nazi orders. Apparently, the only chance of the book's still being in existence would be if it somehow made its way earlier to a library outside of Nazi control. Gerald Cohen At 11:45 AM -0400 7/11/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >KOCHBUCH FUR ISRAELITEN > > StaBiKat is the Berlin Library catalog (Buecher der >Staatsbibliotek), also available at >http://stabikat.Staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/. > I tried "cookbook" and "cook book" with very unremarkable >results. Then I tried "kochbuch" and got 989 hits. Unfortunately, >it takes one day to order a book, and I haven't got that. > Most interesting was number 958 in that search, KOCHBUCH FUR >ISRAELITEN (Carlsruhe: Muller 1815) by Josef Stolz. Is this in any >library in the United States? Can Gerald Cohen request this by >inter-library loan? Have people cited from this cookbook? From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 17:36:53 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:36:53 -0500 Subject: good (adv.) Message-ID: Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is from a dissertation abstract: "(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level of processing. (...)" LINGUIST List: Vol-13-1991. Fri Jul 26 2002. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 13.1991, Diss: Psycholing: Marini "The role played..." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 17:39:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Indigo Som wrote: #>This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives #>from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that #>despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the #>Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was #>sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is #>Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. # #My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People #sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! Ever since studying phonetics with John Ohala at Berkeley, I have fantasized about a firm with three partners, one Japanese, one Irish, and one Polish: Ohara, O'Hara, & Ohala. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 17:43:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 13:43:18 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: #Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is #from a dissertation abstract: # #"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups #performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level #of processing. (...)" Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" -- Mark A. Mandel From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Fri Jul 26 18:00:55 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:00:55 +0100 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Friday, July 26, 2002 1:43 pm -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > ># Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is ># from a dissertation abstract: ># ># "(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups ># performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic ># level of processing. (...)" > > Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" My reaction is also 'ugh' (I've become hyperconscious of this since moving to England). But it's interesting to note the different linguistic (i.e. linguists') reactions to changes and prescriptivism. The sentiment that 'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' is a frequent one. Are such sentiments equivalent to 'Nice to see that people are using their sleeves as napkins more often'? I mean, accepting the notion that no linguistic form is inherently 'better' than any other (so long as they're equivalently communicative), then rooting for the social underdog in linguistic change is no more linguistically valid than rooting for the prescribed form. And (not attributing this attitude to Mai--just thinking about it in classroom discussions) perhaps the rooting-for-the-underdog position is politically/socially simplistic. (I think increased casualness tends to be understood as increased social equality, but I don't think that's necessarily a valid link.) The other reason why this might not be 'nice to see' is that increased linguistic sameness across registers/social groups means decreased linguistic diversity! Ok, this is off the top of my head, just as I'm going out the door for the weekend. Not the time to be throwing casual, loaded statements around! Devilishly yours, Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QH >>From UK: (01273) 678844 fax: (01273) 671320 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 fax: +44-1273-671320 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 26 18:01:36 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:01:36 -0700 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A related tangent: All my life until a few years ago, I (and everyone else I knew) found it quite natural to say "real good (bad, nice, cold, etc.)" I was peripherally aware that there were purists who thought everyone should say "really good," maintaining that "real" was an adjective, not an adverb, and never the twain should meet. But no one I knew paid any attention. In recent months it's occurred to me that I hardly ever say, or hear, "real good" anymore. I guess I use "really" if I use anything at all. I can't attribute this change (if it is one) to pressure from purists, since the purists' argument in this case barely appeared on anyone's radar screen. It seems to me that people generally use "really" a lot more than they used to, in contexts where they wouldn't have used any intensifier in times past. Maybe the two phenomena are connected. Has anyone else noticed this? Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 1:43 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > > #Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is > #from a dissertation abstract: > # > #"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups > #performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic > level #of processing. (...)" > > Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" > > -- Mark A. Mandel **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Jul 26 18:07:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:07:00 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <10304974.1027710055@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: [Mark Mandel] #> Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" [Lynne Murphy] #My reaction is also 'ugh' (I've become hyperconscious of this since moving #to England). But it's interesting to note the different linguistic (i.e. #linguists') reactions to changes and prescriptivism. The sentiment that #'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' #is a frequent one. # #Are such sentiments equivalent to 'Nice to see that people are using their #sleeves as napkins more often'? For me it's esthetic, and a function of the way I learned the language wayyy back. "Good" as adverb this way is just alien to me and associated with (what I feel as) substandard, uneducated speech. Mind you, I keep that attitude separate from my professional linguistic opinion; but when I'm reading or writing for myself, or editing for someone else, that's how I react. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From douglas at NB.NET Fri Jul 26 18:14:22 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:14:22 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Several prominent persons in Asia and America have used the Chinese surname O'Young (so written). Web search shows several current examples. IIRC there was an ambassador from ROC/Taiwan who used this spelling of his name. In most or all cases I believe this is the surname which is written "Ouyang" in more conventional transliteration. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 19:07:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:07:03 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:43 PM -0400 7/26/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: > >#Nice to see this feature making its way to more formal registers. This is >#from a dissertation abstract: ># >#"(...) In the retelling of previously read stories the three groups >#performed relatively good both at the micro- and the macrolinguistic level >#of processing. (...)" > >Obviously a case of "your mileage may vary". My reaction is "ugh!" > My reaction, given the context-- ====== New Dissertation Abstract Institution: University of Rome, La Sapienza Program: PhD in linguistics Dissertation Status: Completed Degree Date: 2002 Author: Andrea Marini Dissertation Title: The role played by the right hemisphere in the organization of complex textual structures Linguistic Field: Psycholinguistics, Neurolinguistics Subject Language: Italian Dissertation Director 1: Carlo Caltagirone ========= is "non-native speaker", hence not really relevant for a "nice" or an "ugh". Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Jul 26 19:13:00 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:13:00 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:39 PM -0400 7/26/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Indigo Som wrote: > >#>This reminds me. Some years ago a New Yorker named Okun (name derives >#>from Russian, where okun' designates the fish "perch") told me that >#>despite being Jewish, he was contacted as a college freshman by the >#>Catholic student group with an invitation to join. The letter was >#>sent in good faith under the mistaken assumption that his name is >#>Irish; it was addressed to him as O'Kun. ># >#My partner's last name is Ozawa, a reasonably common Japanese name. People >#sometimes try O'Zawa on her. Weird! > >Ever since studying phonetics with John Ohala at Berkeley, I have >fantasized about a firm with three partners, one Japanese, one Irish, >and one Polish: Ohara, O'Hara, & Ohala. > You forgot the Hispanic partner, Ojala. (His brother pitched for the Mets and Red Sox.) L From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Jul 26 19:23:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:23:34 -0400 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: When my brother was in the USAF he says he met an Iranian immigrant with the unlikely name of O'Brien who had entered the US with an ethnic name but that it had been changed in Boston (where he landed); may be apocryphal... _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Jul 26 20:40:48 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:40:48 -0400 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <672208.3236670096@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM 7/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: >A related tangent: > >All my life until a few years ago, I (and everyone else I knew) found it >quite natural to say "real good (bad, nice, cold, etc.)" I was >peripherally aware that there were purists who thought everyone should say >"really good," maintaining that "real" was an adjective, not an adverb, and >never the twain should meet. But no one I knew paid any attention. > >In recent months it's occurred to me that I hardly ever say, or hear, "real >good" anymore. I guess I use "really" if I use anything at all. I can't >attribute this change (if it is one) to pressure from purists, since the >purists' argument in this case barely appeared on anyone's radar screen. >It seems to me that people generally use "really" a lot more than they used >to, in contexts where they wouldn't have used any intensifier in times >past. Maybe the two phenomena are connected. > >Has anyone else noticed this? > >Peter Mc. > Yes, I have, esp. in younger people, who tend to pronounce it, with exaggerated stress, as "rilly" = [rIli]. It appears to be newly idiomatic rather than a "learned correction" of adv. 'real'. Didn't we discuss this on the list some time back? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Jul 26 21:08:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:08:20 -0700 Subject: REAL(LY) good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020726163437.00b17aa8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Oh wow--did we?? If so, my apologies for dredging it up. I have no recollection of it, so maybe it was during a time when I was away from the list. Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 4:40 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Didn't we discuss this > on the list some time back? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From mkuha at BSU.EDU Fri Jul 26 22:20:22 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:20:22 -0500 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: <10304974.1027710055@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 7/26/02 1:00 PM, Lynne Murphy wrote: > (...) The sentiment that > 'any change away from prescriptive ideals is progress/good/praise-worthy' > is a frequent one. (...) I'll have to think some more about all these good points that have been made. Just to clarify briefly, my intention was just to signal that I wasn't sending the item in as a tsk-tsk. Surprising mixtures of elements from different categories are often funny, so I enjoyed the sentence in the diss abstract (even if the author may well be a non-native speaker of English) in the same way as I enjoy that great dedication, "To whom it may concern", in the book "Conversational Routine", edited by Florian Coulmas. (A non-native speaker of English? Bingo! We've found the person guilty of spreading computer viruses and sending objectionable graphics!) -Mai From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Jul 26 22:53:44 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:53:44 -0400 Subject: Switchblade Message-ID: Here's an 1894 cite for switchblade knife (OED has 1932): >>As they moved on, Martin, the defendant, was heard to say, "I fixed him;" and, further down the street, Martin showed Lyle the knife with which the stabbing was done. It is of the kind the negroes of that city [sc. Kansas City] call a "switch," and, it seems, in very general use among them. The defendant Martin was arrested next morning at his home, and the knife, with the handle and blade both still fresh with blood, was found in his house.<< State v. Martin, 124 Mo. 514, 28 S.W. 12 (Mo. 1894). John Baker From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 01:37:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:37:40 EDT Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 07/26/2002 3:21:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET writes: > When my brother was in the USAF he says he met an Iranian immigrant with the > unlikely name of O'Brien who had entered the US with an ethnic name but that > it had been changed in Boston (where he landed); may be apocryphal... You appear to be unfamiliar with the legends of what Ellis Island clerks did to European surnames. (According to one source, it was not the clerks at Ellis Island, which hired polyglots to examine the immigrants, but rather the fault of ticket clerks etc. on the various shipping lines on which the immigrants arrived.) Two very real examples: My wife's grandparents were from Lithuania with the surname Krevyanski (I don't know the spelling.) They exited Ellis Island with the Swedish surname of Krohn. (It means "crown" in Swedish and I understand was given to Swedes who received crown land on which to start farms, or some such.) A friend has the unlikely surname "McCrensky". It was something like "Makrenski" in the old country. Not Ellis Island, because according to what my maternal grandmother (born 1881) told me it occurred is England: Her surname was spelled "Wineburgh", a spelling I have never seen elsewhere as a surname. The story goes that her grandfather arrived in England from Germany as a result of the Revolution of 1848 (presumably he was involved with the losing side). Once in England he was told "That's not how you spell 'wine' and that's not how you spell 'burgh'. So he made a hypercorrection to the spelling of his family name. The classic story---and this one probably IS apochryphal---is the Asian with the name "Ole Olsen." The man ahead of him in line was asked for his name, and said "Ole Olsen." Then the Asian was asked for his name, and he said, "Sam Ting". - James A. Landau (whose own surname survived unchanged its arrival at Ellis Island in 1896) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sat Jul 27 01:54:38 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:54:38 -0400 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were the ones writing out the tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin of my Swedish last name in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians got last names in the early years of the 19th-century there were too many Johnsons, Andersons, Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming convention, so the Swedish equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people should use familar geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, &c.--which is how we got to be "mt-valley" people. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 01:56:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:56:25 EDT Subject: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun Message-ID: In a message dated 07/24/2002 4:07:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > he received a call from someone named Conn asking him to > #come to a Conn reunion. "But I'm really a Kahn", my cousin said. "No > #matter," was the reply, "you're a Conn, you're invited." > > On the telephone, which is which, and how could they tell? I overcondensed the story. My cousin explained, to the Irishman, that he had CHANGED his name to Conn. It's been many years since I heard the story, and I'm not sure whether my cousin's original name was Kahn or Cohen or what. Another story, OT but worth telling: Mr. Conn was an advance man for President Johnson on a trip to some small town in Eastern Kentucky. Conn and a Secret Service agent came in ahead of time and started looking the place over, when they became aware of a suspicious stranger watching them. So they confronted the stranger, who turned out to be the sheriff who had thought THEY were suspicious. Once introduced, the sheriff couldn't do enough for them. "I've heard about this Kentucky moonshine, and I always wanted to find out what it was like," the Secret Service man said. No problem, the sheriff had confiscated some and sent over a jug. My cousin was aware of the quality control that does not go into moonshine, so he asked for beer instead. The sheriff said, "Sure, but don't tell your landlady where it came from---I arrested her husband for bootlegging." [Like a good many counties in Kentucky, including Bourbon County, the place was dry.] My cousin and the Secret Service man rounded up some cars for the motorcade. One of them was a convertible. "No way!" said the Secret Service man, and they hid the convertible somewhere. THe Presidential plane flew in, and President Johnson got off and promptly shook hands with my cousin. "He's nearsighted," said the Secret Service man. "He shakes hands with us all the time." Having gotten started, Johnson kept shaking hands until he had managed to shake his way into the hiding place where the convertible was stashed. And so nothing would do but that he ride in that car in his motorcade. So Johnson rode in the convertible, unaware that in the trunk of the car, having been placed there as the safest place to make sure nobody found it, was the jug of moonshine. - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 27 03:23:27 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:23:27 -0400 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #You forgot the Hispanic partner, Ojala. (His brother pitched for the #Mets and Red Sox.) Would it were so! ;-)\ (Thanks. His name goes on the door.) -- Mark M. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 03:23:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:23:51 EDT Subject: Machinima Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MACHINIMA Not in the revised OED. I thought that I had posted something like this. From the INTERNATIONAL HERALD TRIBUNE, 26 July 2002, pg. 13, col. 2: Hancock, 24, is among the first practitioners of machinima (pronounced ma-SHIN-i-ma), a form of digital filmmaking that piggybacks on the slick graphics that are easily available from computer games and uses them to produce animated movies quickly and cheaply. Machinima movies, which range from short comedies to science-fiction epics, are produced entirely on computers, eliminating the need to buy costly equipment, rent locations or hire actors. The films are then distributed free over the Internet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EDITORS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EDITORS! or DOES ANYBODY READ THIS STUFF? From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, July 26-28, 2002, pg. M1, col. 3: Mr. Kindelberger, a retired economist, wrote hte 1978 economics classic "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises." The book, required reading for many Wall Street trainees and students of economic history, documents four centuries of boom-and-bust cycles. It ranges from a fleeting bubble in the market for Dutch tulips in 1636, to rampant speculation and subsequent collapse in railoroad shares in 1847 and 1857, to the Depression in the 1930s, to the rise and fall of Japan's property market in the late 1980s and early 1990s. (A 1978 book foretold of Japan's property market in the early 1990s?...A paragraph later, we are told that there was a 1996 edition--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Jul 27 03:24:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:24:20 -0400 Subject: good (adv.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #My reaction, given the context-- #====== #New Dissertation Abstract # #Institution: University of Rome, La Sapienza #Program: PhD in linguistics #Dissertation Status: Completed #Degree Date: 2002 #Author: Andrea Marini [...] #========= #is "non-native speaker", hence not really relevant for a "nice" or an "ugh". ah ha. I overlooked that. I would say, he (she?) gets a freebie on this. -- Mark M. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Jul 27 03:20:49 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:20:49 -0500 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <000801c23510$9174e060$0bb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: There's a video out by an Alan Berliner who looked up other people with that name and had a dinner in New York for 12 of them. He did lots of research for the project, including interviewing people who actually worked at Ellis Island. They simply took the names from the ships' logs, so the changes were made before they got on the boat or after they had cleared through the Ellis facility. The video is "The Sweetest Sound (A film about Names)." It is marketed and distributed by New Video, 126 Fifth Ave, 15th Fl, New York NY 10011. Alan Berliner is a professional (free-lance) film maker. DMLance on 7/26/02 8:54 PM, David Bergdahl at einstein at FROGNET.NET wrote: > I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were the ones writing out the > tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin of my Swedish last name > in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians got last names in the > early years of the 19th-century there were too many Johnsons, Andersons, > Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming convention, so the Swedish > equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people should use familar > geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, &c.--which is how we > got to be "mt-valley" people. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Sat Jul 27 03:28:39 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 23:28:39 -0400 Subject: Machinima Message-ID: "Machinima" ("machine" + "cinema", sort of) was also featured recently in a 1,200-word article in the The New York Times:: "Machinima movies, which range from short comedies to science-fiction epics, are produced entirely on computers, eliminating the need to buy costly equipment, rent spectacular locations or hire glamorous actors. The films are then distributed free over the Internet." --Matthew Mirapaul, "Computer Games as the Tools for Digital Filmmakers," The New York Times, July 22, 2002 Paul http://www.logophilia.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 10:44:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:44:08 EDT Subject: Technical Passport; How to Speak Alaskan Message-ID: MISC Yes, the Friday, July 26th IHT story was also by Matthew Mirapaul of the New York Times. I didn't sit next to the wife & kids on this Lufthansa flight, but I did sit next to a woman from Spain who looks like Penelope Cruz. The only downside to a date this weekend is that I have to clean up this apartment. Around Yalta, there were many food sellers by the side of the road. Think of apple road stands in upsate NY, and multiply by five. I asked the "no slang in Ukraine" kid about it, and he said it was the same thing as Georgia--the nuts and grape juice thing on a string. But I saw that it was different. We drove to the airport. We passed one, two, three...thirty of these things. The "seagull in Yalta" tour guide, who knew very well that I was interested in Ukraine food, said NOTHING. Oh, what the hell, I'll ask. "WHAT ARE THESE?" "Sweet onion," she said. It was not the same as Georgia! I waited for the next line: Do you want to stop and see it? Amazingly, with two Ukraine tour guides, that was never offered. I tipped the kid well and told him to e-mail me library info on the oldest Ukraine cookbooks, but don't hold your breath. Mongolian passport photos I need now...I just realized that this conflicts with the NYU Presidential Installation dinner date Allan Metcalf gave me for September 26th. Write to Allan if you're interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TECHNICAL PASSPORT Not in OED. Several web hits. There was a sign about "technical passport" for your vehicle at Kiev's airport. It's a license to drive that vehicle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN This was sent on June 16th (before my Alaska trip), but I see that it's in my mail now (July 26). HOW TO SPEAK ALASKAN edited by Mike Doogan Fairbanks: Epicenter Press 64 pages, paperback, $4.95 1993 Pg. 5: Alaska; Alaskan Permanent Fund; Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend. Pg. 6: Alaska tuxedo; Alaskan; Alaskans; Alcan; Aleut. Pg. 7: Anchorage; ANWR. Pg. 8: Arctic Entry; Artic haze. Pg. 9: Athabaskan; Aurora Borealis; Babiche. Pg. 10: Baleen; Banya; Barrow. Pg. 11: Bear paws; Beaver fever; Bethel. Pg. 12: Bidarka; Billiken; Black ice; Blanket toss. Pg. 13: Blazo; Blazo box. Pg. 14: Blue ticket; Bloomer; Bootle. Pg. 15: Bottom fishing; Borough; Breakup. Pg. 16: Breakup boots; Bug dope; Bunny boots; The Bush. Pg. 17: Bush pilot; Cabbage; Cabin. Pg. 18: Cabin fever; Cache. Pg. 19: Camp robber; Carry-on. Pg. 20: The Chain; Cheechako; Chinook; Cicely. Pg. 21: Cleanup; Cold; Cold snap. Pg. 22: Combat fishing; Corking. Pg. 23: Dip netting; Dog musher; Dog mushing; Dog lot. Pg. 24: Dog team; Dutch. Pg. 25: Duct tape; Ear pull. Pg. 26: Eskimo ice cream; Eskimo yo-yo; Eyak. Pg. 27: Fairbanks; Feds. Pg. 28: Fireweed; Fish camp; Fish trap. Pg. 29: Fish wheel; Forget-me-not; Four wheeler. Pg. 30: Freeze-up; Galloping glacier; Gangline; Glacier. Pg. 31: Glacier bear; Greenie; Gum boot. Pg. 32: Gussuk; Gwichin; Haida; Halibut. Pg. 33: Hanging glacier; Head-bolt heater; Hickel Highway. Pg. 34: Honey bucket; Honey bucket wagon; Hoochino. Pg. 35: Hooligan; Ice bridge; Ice cellar; Ice fog. Pg. 36: Ice pool; Iceworm. Pg. 37: Iditarod; Inside Passage; Inupiat. Pg. 38: Jueneau; Kashim. Pg. 39: Kenai; Kenai River; Ketchikan. Pg. 40: Knuckle hop; Kodiak; Kotzebue. Pg. 41: Kuspuk; Lead dog; Ling cod. Pg. 42: The Lower 48; Midnight sun; Moose dropping. Pg. 43: Moose gooser; Mosquito; Mount McKinley. Pg. 44: Mukluks; Mukluk telegraph; Muktuk. Pg. 45: Muskeg; Native; Nome. Pg. 46: North Slope; No-See-Ums; Oosik; Outside. Pg. 47: Outsiders; Overflow; The Panhandle; Paniqtaq. Pg. 48: Permafrost; Pilot bread--Big, round crackers that keep well, which makes them a staple in the Bush; The Pipeline. Pg. 49: Poke; Poochki; Potlatch; Prince William Sound; Prudhoe Bay. Pg. 50: Qiviut; Quaq; Railbelt; RATNET. Pg. 51: Ratting; Seal hook; Seward; Sheefish. Pg. 52: Sitka; Skookum; Slavic. Pg. 53: Sled dog racing; Sluice box. Pg. 54: Snagging; Sourdough; Sourdough hotcakes. Pg. 55: Spenard divorce; Squaw candy--A term for dried strips of salmon that was heard more often in the past than in the politically correct present.; Starring; Stateside. Pg. 56: Stink heads; Subsistence; Summer; Sundog. Pg. 57: Taku; Three seasons--Alaska only has three: winter, breakup and road construction.; Tlingit. Pg. 58: Trail shoe; Tsimshian; Tundra; Ugruk. Pg. 59: Ulu; Umiak; Village; Wanigan. Pg. 60: White knuckles; Williwaw; Wind chill. Pg. 61: Yukon stove; The Yukon Quest. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 12:13:13 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 08:13:13 EDT Subject: Garage Wine Message-ID: From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, 26-28 July 2002, pg. P1, col. 4, "Wine" by William Echikson: They should also be careful about rare "garage wines" with short track records. Google has about 400 "garage wine" hits, with about 20 in the newsgroups. The term has been used in the past five years. Google also for "vins de garage," and check Nexis and the usual databases. MASSANDRA WINE: The Crimean area of the Ukraine ("Crimea doesn't pay") is famous for its Massandra Wines. I had a wine-tasting of nine of them. They're good! _Very_ good! If you like sweet wine, Yalta go there and get some. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 17:46:30 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:46:30 -0500 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: Re: "I loves me some X" redux > As for the qualifier, consider: > > I stopped and bought cigarettes. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes. > I stopped and bought me some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought me cigarettes. > I stopped and bought myself some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought myself cigarettes. > I stopped and bought cigarettes for myself. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes for myself. > I stopped and bought my wife some cigarettes. > * I stopped and bought my wife cigarettes. > I stopped and bought cigarettes for my wife. > I stopped and bought some cigarettes for my wife. > > * Does y'all agrees y'all with them there little stars? (^_^) > > -- Doug Wilson I lived in Minnesota (St Paul, so it was somewhat "urban") for the first 21 years of my life. Every one of those above sound perfectly grammatical to me. So, it is not just because Dennis is from "the South". Or even because he is "low-class" (or was that "lower-class"?). ;-) The only ones that sounds even a little like they entered from "some other dialect" (African-American, Southern, or otherwise) are the first starred one, and the un-starred one right above it. Those, I cannot imagine someone over the age of forty (at least that I know) using naturally in Minnesota, so they may be a more recent addition as BEV "traveled" more in the sixties seventies. That's my opinion, anyway. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 17:57:28 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:57:28 -0500 Subject: catercorner Message-ID: Sorry if bringing this up again is getting annoying, but I was just realizing as I read Donald's and Anne's posts that I have heard the "across the street and diagonal a bit" usage also. Not just at an intersection, but maybe in the middle of the block. It never occured to me until all this that it was a "strange" usage because it did not involve corners at all. That would be semantic extension at work, I suppose. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:02:49 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: Pros from Dover Message-ID: Are you sure the Simpsons got their first? After all, they came out much much later than M*A*S*H. :-) I do like the phonological basis for Dover. It seems it woudl not have caught on at all if it hadn't just "sounded" right. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from > >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than Dovers. > >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) > > > >DMLance > > > Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:18:18 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:18:18 -0500 Subject: Pat the Bunny Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Aman" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Chai M. Potok; O'Kun > I recently disabused an adult, named Patrick, that the childrens book titled > Pat The Bunny was not about a rabbit named Pat(rick). Despite his advanced > age (30-odd), Patrick was crestfallen. Actually, I had always assumed (even as a small child) that the book was Pat (Verb) the Bunny, an admonition or direction for the reader. When I started as an assistant manager at Doubleday Books in 1993, I ran into repeated references to the Bunny as being named "Pat", not just in customers' conversations, but also in some written materials on the "significance" of Pat, The Bunny in introducing more interactive children's books, where the children got to actually do something. Since then, it has been really unclear most of the time I see it referenced, which meaning it is assumed to have. The times when you can tell, it seems to be predominantly the name-meaning (as in about 75%). Okay, I am WAY too interested in children's books, but it keeps me hopping (hah!), trying to keep up with explosion in that literary genre in the last twenty years! -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:22:46 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:22:46 -0500 Subject: stupid virus-spreader tricks Message-ID: > I wasn't concerned with the computer literacy but with the general literacy. > This was put together either by someone who is struggling with English as a > second language or someone with only elementary control of written English. Then, you must not have received too awfully many virus hoaxes. Much of the alleged English-speaking population on the Internet does not write much better than that. Seriously. Most of the ones I see are filled with misspellings and/or ungrammatical phrases. They are getting forwarded to me in spite of it (and not ironically), so someone obviously believed it was real! The only ones that are well-written are the ones designed to sound like they are actually from a virus software company, or Bill Gates, or someone else you are obviously expected to trust. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Jul 27 18:41:15 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:41:15 -0500 Subject: (OT) Tulips in Holland Message-ID: Funny you should bring up that "bubble" in 1636 Holland story. I just included that in a paper we distributed to some clients on a Credit Union member list at work. Apparently, that whole thing lasted less than one month, and authorities let people who got caught up in it off the hook for only 3.5 percent of the contract price. That's apparently where the legend of a "disastrous price decline" comes from, referred to as "tulip mania" in economics circles. The book referred to is Peter Garber's "Famous First Bubbles". Just thought you'd like to know, if you didn't already. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: Machinima .... > EDITORS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING EDITORS! > or > DOES ANYBODY READ THIS STUFF? > > From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, July 26-28, 2002, pg. M1, col. 3: > > Mr. Kindelberger, a retired economist, wrote hte 1978 economics classic > "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises." The book, > required reading for many Wall Street trainees and students of economic > history, documents four centuries of boom-and-bust cycles. It ranges from a > fleeting bubble in the market for Dutch tulips in 1636, to rampant > speculation and subsequent collapse in railoroad shares in 1847 and 1857, to > the Depression in the 1930s, to the rise and fall of Japan's property market > in the late 1980s and early 1990s. > > (A 1978 book foretold of Japan's property market in the early 1990s?...A > paragraph later, we are told that there was a 1996 edition--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 27 18:53:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:53:41 -0400 Subject: Pros from Dover In-Reply-To: <009d01c23597$d2be0ec0$6f01a8c0@mdsn1.wi.home.com> Message-ID: >Are you sure the Simpsons got their first? After all, they came out much >much later than M*A*S*H. :-) Well, yup, since M*A*S*H never got to Springfield at all... >I do like the phonological basis for Dover. It seems it woudl not have >caught on at all if it hadn't just "sounded" right. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Horn" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:20 PM >Subject: Re: Pros from Dover > > >> >My comment on convenient assonance still stands. Would "pro from >> >Springfield" have worked as well? There are more Springfields than >Dovers. >> >(To keep a language element in the discussion.) >> > >> >DMLance >> > >> Plus the Simpsons got to Springfield first. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 27 18:53:04 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:53:04 -0400 Subject: honey do Message-ID: On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous contexts. Recent ex: When a maintenance worker friend of mine at UT retired last year, I asked him how he would spend his time after retirement. He said, laughing, that he had a parttime job lined up and a long list of honey dos. (I cannot find the term in DARE.) Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Jul 27 19:07:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:07:10 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 27, 2002 at 02:53:04PM -0400, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of > the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about > household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous > contexts. Recent ex: This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Jesse Sheidlower OED From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Jul 27 19:14:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:14:22 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:53 PM -0400 7/27/02, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On another list, a question has arisen about the connotations of >the NP "honey do." I know the term primarily as one used by husbands about >household chores/repairs/etc. - and I know it only in humorous >contexts. Recent ex: > >When a maintenance worker friend of mine at UT retired last year, I asked >him how he would spend his time after retirement. He said, laughing, that >he had a parttime job lined up and a long list of honey dos. > >(I cannot find the term in DARE.) > >Bethany I've usually heard it immediately explicated (with the meaning you mention), as "Honey do this, honey do that." larry From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Jul 27 19:14:10 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:14:10 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: <20020727190710.GA14662@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with >a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred >or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Right (re RHHDAS, where is is honey-do, honeydew) - I am surprised to find it as slang, not as a regionalism. Is it used everywhere in the US? I am sure it was used much earlier than 1990, though I have no cites. If I run into any in my tape collction, I'll let that be known. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Jul 27 19:51:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:51:11 -0400 Subject: Ham Sandwich (31 January 1985) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 31 January 1985, pg. 3: _New top state judge: Abolish_ _grand juries & let us decide_ By MARCIA KRAMER and FRANK LOMBARDI IN A BID to make prosecutors more accountable for their actions, Chief Judge Sol Wachtler has proposed that the state scrap the grand jury system of bringing criminal indictments. Wachtler, who became the state's top judge earlier this month, said district attorneys now have so much influence on grand juries that "by and large" they could get them to "indict a ham sandwich." From pg. 46: _New York State's top judge speaks out_ _DAILY NEWS_ _NewsMaker_ _Chief Judge Sol Wachtler_ Sol Wachtler, newly appointed chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals, was questioned at a Daily News NewsMaker lunch this week. (What did Sol eat??--ed.) Following are excerpts from his discussion with senior Daily News news executives and members of the editorial board and news staff. (...) (Col. 3--ed.) A: (...) Along with that, we must rationalize the appellate process. In New York, if a trial judge sneezes, a lawyer can go up to the Appellate Division. (Col. 4--ed.) Q: And the death penalty? A: I referred to it in a speech once as being the chicken soup of politics--it can't hurt. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Jul 27 20:24:43 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:24:43 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| sure it was used much earlier than 1990, though I have no |o| cites. If I run Must. I grew up during in the 50s and remember during the melon season hearing "I've got honeydews on my Honey, do" from the adults in our farming community (rhythm & intonation echoes Frost's "and miles to go before I sleep") with about the same meaning, used mainly as a means of escaping an invitation to sit a spell during melon harvest season. I also recall an uncle who delivered sacks of his garden melons (as well as zukes & cucks) to neighbors excusing himself with the funny, "Well, gotta go. More honeydews on my honey do to do, too, toodahloo" as well as Honey Do used to distinguish household chores from farm chores. Of course, honey do and honey dew could be switched in and out as necessary. I seem to vaguely recall a novelty song that was popular back then where the lyrics played on honey do, perhaps a Phil Harris piece along the lines of Dark Town Poker Club and That's What I Like About the South. rhk From kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG Sun Jul 28 00:50:49 2002 From: kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 19:50:49 -0500 Subject: "I loves me some X" redux Message-ID: They all sound fine, but the first starred item would only sound natural coming out of the mouth of an Irishman. -Jan Linguistics/Speech Path. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Jul 28 02:01:34 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 22:01:34 -0400 Subject: honey do In-Reply-To: <20020727190710.GA14662@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with > a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred > or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Here's an antedating: 1986 _Wash. Post_ 23 Dec. [no pagination given] (Dow Jones) Ross said he was eager to return to work. "I'm kind of looking forward to it," he said. "I've had some free time. I did a lot of 'honey-dos' . . . You know, 'Honey, do this' and 'Honey, do that.' " Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Jul 28 04:37:20 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:37:20 -0400 Subject: honey do Message-ID: A little earlier: "Contests ranged from the men's and women's 25-meter free-style swim to the "Honey-Do Hustle" track event, in which couples shuffled down a line double-quick with a slippery balloon sandwiched between them." Washington Post, July 8, 1984. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Sat 7/27/2002 10:01 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: honey do On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > This is in HDAS, defined as "a household chore. _Joc._", with > a first citation from 1990, almost certainly too late, as Fred > or Barry or someone will surely let me know shortly. Here's an antedating: 1986 _Wash. Post_ 23 Dec. [no pagination given] (Dow Jones) Ross said he was eager to return to work. "I'm kind of looking forward to it," he said. "I've had some free time. I did a lot of 'honey-dos' . . . You know, 'Honey, do this' and 'Honey, do that.' " Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 06:35:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:35:14 EDT Subject: Honey do / Honeydew Message-ID: HONEY DO / HONEY DEW "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. 10+. Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first line is "Come on honey do, and I'll show it to you." "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave Kerker, 1894. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: MISC. ...While I was out getting a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman I met yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. It's a good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I can't support a frog. ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking Violations monthly work calendar: _Adjournment Policy_ Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not allowed--"never"--an adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was this reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a particular senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to rule negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the respondent to get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 08:49:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:49:17 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: _POGROMS._ The Russian word _pogrom_, which literally means "disturbance" or "riot," has in the course of time come to denote all violent attacks directed against Jews in particular. Up to 1881 the only pogroms were three in Odessa (1821, 1859 and 1871) and a minor one in Akkerman in 1862. After 1881, however, they became a conti9nual menace and almost a "normal" phenomenon of Jewish life in Russia; as time went on they became increasingly cruel in character. From April to June, 1881, a series of pogroms broke out in larger and smaller places in southern and southwestern Russia; in the other parts of the empire there was only one, at Warsaw in December. --THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., NY, vol. 8, pg. 559 (1969). When I went to the Odessa synagogue (as I stated), it had no information at all to educate me about the history of Jews in Odessa or in the Ukraine. OED has 1882 for "pogrom," then 1905. Merriam-Webster uses a 1903 date. Clearly, I should come up with something in 1881, if not earlier. Does the full text of the NEW YORK TIMES have anything? The Making of America database (Cornell) has "Pogromnia" in the November 1877 HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE, pg. 810. It's the Russian name of a volcano in Alaska. The HARPER'S WEEKLY full text database also doesn't have anything. I went to request Joachim Tarnopol's NOTICES HISTORIQUES ET CARACTERISTIQUES SUR LES ISRAELITES D'ODESS (1855), but it was curiously missing. NYPL is the ONLY library that has it (if it does have it). I'll have to check out Tarnopol's 1868 book on Russian Jews, which the NYPL has on microfilm. THE JEWS OF ODESSA: A CULTURAL HISTORY, 1794-1881 (Stanford University Press, 1985) by Steven J. Zipperstein has a fine bibliography (Zipperstein relied heavily on the "missing" Tarnopol book), but it's not much of a book itself. Jewish food is hardly described. Jewish music is hardly described. "Pogrom" is described, but not well enough to provide clear citations for the word (which is not even present in the Glossary on pages 157-158). I'm going through some of the Zipperstein bibliography's books, but in the meantime, if anybody has a "pogrom," please buzz in. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Jul 28 08:52:12 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:52:12 +0100 Subject: Serrancified Message-ID: Three weeks ago, I posted the following request: > A subscriber has written as follows to ask about a puzzling bit of > American dialect usage. Can anyone help? > > > It's from Virginia-North Carolina, an older generation, (maybe a > > hundred years back) and probably from the Appalachians. Three > > different older friends remember their grandmothers' using it. It > > means "I'm full", "I've had plenty to eat". Phonetically: "My > > sufficiency is serrancified". Could be "cerr", or one "r", or > > perhaps never printed! All four of us are curious about its > > origins. Belated thanks to those who helped me out. The resulting piece went out in my World Wide Words newsletter yesterday and provoked quite a large response. It looks from comments as though the expression is best known in Canada and that it was originally something like "My sufficiency has been suffonsified and anything additional would be superfluous". That form of the word is the one that is most common in online searches, where the Canadian focus is also obvious. One subscriber pointed out that it appears in a passage in Margaret Atwood's novel, "Cat's Eye". She has two teenage girls, living in Toronto in the 1940s, who say, "Are you sufficiently sophonisified?". I also found a restaurant reviewer in Vancouver whose pen name is "Sufficiently Suffonsified". Oddly, there's also a 1999 record by the Austrian band Cunning Dorx with the title "Paradigms Suffonsified". It would seem that the word is not defunct, though belonging to an earlier generation. Any further information would be most welcome! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 28 09:59:58 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:59:58 -0700 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: Members of my sorority (African American, college graduates) have referred to their husbands as "honey-dos" for at least as long as I can remember (from the '60's). --- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > HONEY DO / HONEY DEW > > "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? > > "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. > > "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. > 10+. > Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. > > "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. > > "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first > line is "Come > on honey do, and I'll show it to you." > > "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. > > "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. > > "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave > Kerker, 1894. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------------------------------- > O.T.: MISC. > > ...While I was out getting a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman > I met > yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. > It's a > good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I > can't > support a frog. > ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking > Violations > monthly work calendar: > > _Adjournment Policy_ > Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the > documentation > the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of > guilt. > Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the > documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. > > The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not > lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that > would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not > allowed--"never"--an > adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? > Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! > > (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was > this > reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept > the sworn > testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a > particular > senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to > rule > negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the > respondent to > get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 10:36:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 06:36:25 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: Jewish Encyclopedia, volume IX (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1905) article on "Odessa": page 377 column 1 "[Odessa] has been an important factor in the cultural life of the Jews of Russia. It is believed that when the Russians took possession in 1789 of the Turkish fortress of Khadzhi-Bel---named Odessa in 1794---Jews were already living in the place....in 1795 the Jewish population had increased to 240 persons of both sexes. Most of them came from Volhynia, Podolia, and Lithuania. Later on Jews arrived from Galicia and Germany...The Galician and German Jews were styled "Broder" Jews, after the city of Brody." page 378 column 1 "The community did not escape the horrors of the pogrom. Indeed, the very first pogrom in Russia occurred in Odessa in the year 1859. This was in reality not a Russian but a Greek pogrom; for the leaders and almost all of th participants were [column 2] Greek sailors from ships in the harbor, and local Greeks who joined them. The pogrom occurred on a Christian Easter; and the local press, in no wiise unfriendly to the Jews, attempted to transform it into an accidental fight, the Greek colony at that time being dominant in the administration as well as in the commerce of Odessa. Further pogroms occurred in 1871, 1881, and 1886." Also volume X (1905) article "Russia" page 527 column 1: "The prevailing ignorance in foreign countries concerning these terible conditions was due largely to the suppression by the censorship of any mention in the Russian newspapers of the brutal acts of the police. But isolated notices which found their way into the foreign press created a wave of indignation throughout Europe, and forced even Pobiedonostzev [procurator-general, appointed 1880] to make apologetic explanations. In an interview with Arnold White he declared that "everybody was sorry for the brutality of the chief of police in Moscow." It is well known, however, that the latter official merely carried out the instructions of Grand Duke Sergius, who himself applied in practice Pobiedonostzev's teachings. Speaking of these, the historian Mommsen said (Nov. 1, 1903): "Is it not possible to arrest the decay of a greatly vaunted civilization, the suicde of Russia?...But we may still hope that the statement of a great empire and the sovereign arbiter of Europe may no longer be dominated by the blind action of a resuscitated Torquemada." Both the above articles were written by Herman Rosentahl, "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library" From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Jul 28 11:57:09 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:57:09 -0400 Subject: MOre Re: honey do Message-ID: from a friend (I asked if he knew the term): ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:29:21 -0700 Subject: Re: honey do sure, but I don't know where it came from. It is usually used when a man describes his saturday as a 'honey do day". Or talks about a list of 'honey dos" --- Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 15:19:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 11:19:38 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library, wrote that in 1905? The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. Something seems wrong here. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 18:00:48 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:00:48 EDT Subject: stick to business, please Message-ID: And this has WHAT to do with ADS-L business. Will somebody please tell this guy to stick to the topic? If I wanted to hear about the difficulties that people have with their jobs I would subscribe to ABS-L. In a message dated 7/28/2002 2:35:53 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << ...This is from my "Monthly Adjudications Update," with my Parking Violations monthly work calendar: _Adjournment Policy_ Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would explain a delay and reduce late penalties. They're not allowed--"never"--an adjournment to get evidence to help themselves? This is justice? Oh, it's a miserable job I return to! (I was told that the parking fines doubled while I was away. Was this reported anywhere?...In the situation above, I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. Several times I was reviewed by a particular senior judge, asked where the documentation was, and was told to rule negatively based on evidence the department did not allow the respondent to get. Fortunately for the city, none of this makes the newspapers.) >> From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sun Jul 28 19:56:56 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:56:56 -0400 Subject: stick to business, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| And this has WHAT to do with ADS-L business. Will somebody |o| please tell this |o| guy to stick to the topic? If I wanted to hear about the |o| difficulties that |o| people have with their jobs I would subscribe to ABS-L. |o| Oh, I dunno. I'm inclined to overlook a good bit in this case. After all, looking back over my deleted files for the last couple of months I see considerably more quality posts from Landau than from Butters. Regardless of what the subscription rules say, the fact is this: the list--any list--belongs to those who post, those who contribute to the intellectual life of the community, those who participate. If you'd like the raise the quality of discussion, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. Otherwise, may I direct your attention to the DEL key? I used it to good effect last week during some interminable discussion about...well, I forget...but it went on forever. rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Jul 28 22:52:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 18:52:39 -0400 Subject: Matryoshka, Matreshka, Matrushka; Doll Hospital (1900) Message-ID: MATRYOSHKA, MATRESHKA, MATRUSHKA My tour guide wrote it out for me as "matrushka." On further examination, OED has an entry under "matryoshka." The revised entry is clearly not very good. The first dating is from 1948, then 1964 and 1982. Alternate spellings (always important for a foreign borrowing) are not mentioned. OED has 1937 and 1967 for "Russian doll." It is not in Merriam-Webster (www.m-w.com) under any spelling. The Google results: MATRYOSHKA 9,000 hits MATRESHKA 2,370 hits MATRUSHKA 547 hits The NYPL has a book titled THE MATRUSHKA DOLL (NY: R. Marek, 1979) by Barbara Fischman Traub. There is a "matryoshka" book, but from only 1969. The 1990s gave us Becky Hickox Ayres's MATRESHKA (Doubleday, 1992) and Corinne Demas Bliss's THE LITTLEST MATRYOSHKA (Hyperion, 1999). "Matryoshka," a poem by Melissa Green, was published in THE YALE REVIEW, April 2002. An article on the Matryoshka Museum was published in RUSSIAN LIFE, January/February 2002. I think it's on the ProQuest database. "The first museum devoted to Russia's most famous souvenir, the matryoshka nesting doll, has opened in Moscow in the Fund of Popular Craft." The article states that the doll is a century old (from about 1900), and that it came to Russia from similar Japanese dolls. I didn't find the word easily in database searches or in doll books, but I'll keep looking. --------------------------------------------------------------- DOLL HOSPITAL I thought I'd query the good folks at my nearby doll hospital. It was closed today, though. The New York Doll Hospital, Inc., 787 Lexington Avenue, New York, NY 10022, (212) 838-7527, states "ANTIQUE DOLLS & TOYS BOUGHT & SOLD." The sign states "SINCE 1900." OED's first entry for "doll hospital" is 1917. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 00:15:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:15:40 -0400 Subject: Matreshki (1907) Message-ID: I forgot to add that "matrioshka" has 5,150 Google hits. RUSSIAN FOLK ART by Alison Hilton Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana University Press 1995 Pg. 127: The most famous type of wooden toy was the _matreshka_ (commonly rendered in English as "matrioshka"), usually shaped as a peasant woman in a _sarafan_, hollow inside to hold a whole series of smaller nesting dolls. Legends about the origin of the form related it to an ancient mother goddess of Siberian peoples. Travelers told of a mysterious golden statue, hollow and containing many layers of shells of gold. Regardless of any ancient source, the wooden _matreshka_, comfortably rounded and containing a multitude of offspring, was a familiar symbol of fertility and security. The idea of nesting figures may actually have come from Japanese toys. The first documented Russian _matreshka_ was designed in the 1890s by Sergei Maliutin, a professional artist and member of the Talashkino folk art revival group; it was shaped on a lathe and carved by the carpenter Zvezdochkin. This was an eight-piece doll, the figure of a woman in a modest _sarafan_ and kerchief, inside her a boy, then a girl, and so on, the smallest piece a baby in swaddling clothes. ARTS AND CRAFTS IN LATE IMPERIAL RUSSIA: REVIVING THE KUSTAR ART INDUSTRIES, 1870-1917 by Wendy R. Salmond Cambridge University Press 1996 Pg. 85: The first new toy to be produced at Segiev Posad designed entirely by a professional Russian artist was the matreshka doll (Fig. 27). (Pg. 86--ed.) Contrary to popular belief today, the matreshka was not an ancient folk symbol or even a traditional kustar toy,(21) but was designed in 1891 by the young artist Sergei Maliutin for Maria Mamontova's Children's Education toy shop on Leontievskii Lane.(22) In response to Mamontova's commission for a doll inspired by a Japanese nesting toy depicting the Sage Furkumu, Maliutin created a barrel-shaped peasant girl dressed in white kerchief and sarafan, red cheeked, broad smiling, and clutching a black rooster under her right arm. This "matreshka" (the diminutive of Matrena, a common peasant woman's name) opened to reveal a girl, within which was a smaller girl, and so on, until at the very core lay a swaddled infant. Maliutin's design was produced and sold at Children's Education until 1898, when the store closed down and its stock, including the matreshka, was transferred to the Moscow zemstvo's workshop at Sergiev Posad. The new toy immediately went into production at the training workshop, and as volume increased into the millions the painting and finishing of the dolls were entrusted to a separate workshop operated by the Ivanov brothers. Pg. 228 (Notes): 21. There have been several attempts to find the matreshka's origins in ancient folk culture, but the myth of the matreshka as an authentic kustar toy had taken hold as early as 1907: "Matreshki are rather reminiscent of the well-known nesting eggs (and) were actually developed from them. Some shrewd kustar took it into his head to replace the egg with a fat conical _baba_ in a kerchief with a rooster under her arm." "Kustarnoe tsarstvo v Sergievskom posade," _Niva_, 39 (1907), 642. 22. Children's Education was founded in 1883 by Maria Alekseevna Mamontova (?-1904), wife of the publisher Anatolii Mamontov and Savva Mamontov's sister-in-law. (...) Children's Education was represented in the Women's Section of the Russian Section at the World's Columbian Exposition held in Chicago in 1893, along with the Moscow Kustar Museum, Abramtsevo, and a number of other kustar workshops operated by noblewomen. See no. 620 in the section on women's work in _Catalogue of the Russian Section, World's Columbian Exposition, 1893, Chicago_ (St. Petersburg, 1893). (I haven't checked that, but it's an early cite if there in 1893--ed.) Pg. 232 (Notes): 87. (...) As an example of foreign sales on the eve of the First World War, the matreshka doll, produced at 30-35 rubles per hundred, retailed in America for $1.00 each (Vvedenskii, _U Sergievskogo igrushechnika_, 57). (Again, OED's first citation in the revised entry is 1948, after the Second World War--ed.) From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 02:28:24 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 22:28:24 EDT Subject: stick to business, please Message-ID: I wasn't talking about Landau, I was talking about Popik. And I generally do delete his postings without complaint, knowing that a lot of what he posts are highly valued by others. (It is worth pointing out, though, that it takes time to delete items, and some people have to pay for their computer time--I have had to work with very slow computers in cybercafes in foreign countries where getting rid of all of the unwanted messages was a real problem). Moreover, we are archiving all of this stuff, I assume. The real problem with the case at hand, though, was that on this occasion when I opened something that DID seem interesting to me, all I got was a guy complaining about his job. This is not a "contribution to the intellectual life of the community." Nor is this a matter of the QUALITY of the discussion, but rather of the NATURE of the discussion. Mr. Popik could set up a web page and publish all his observations on his life to his heart's content, and all the people who want to read what he writes could sign on. Or he could start Barry's List and do his self-reporting that way. The "D" in "ADS-L" stands for "dialect." I'm happy to cast a very wide net here, and I have NEVER complained about any of the antedatings and the seemingly endless harping about the origins of lexical items as WINDY CITY and BIG APPLE, much less the incredible flow of food and drink terms. These are things that have to do with American English, and some people obviously like to see them. On the other hand, if we are willing to proceed "regardless of what the subscription rules say" and not remind people that there are rules, then why have a specialized list at all? In a message dated 7/28/2002 3:56:44 PM, Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM writes: << Oh, I dunno. I'm inclined to overlook a good bit in this case. After all, looking back over my deleted files for the last couple of months I see considerably more quality posts from Landau than from Butters. Regardless of what the subscription rules say, the fact is this: the list--any list--belongs to those who post, those who contribute to the intellectual life of the community, those who participate. If you'd like the raise the quality of discussion, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. Otherwise, may I direct your attention to the DEL key? I used it to good effect last week during some interminable discussion about...well, I forget...but it went on forever. >> From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 03:48:44 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:48:44 -0400 Subject: Pastrami Message-ID: An item from Dave Wilton's Web discussion site (quoted here with permission of the poster). I recall the "pastrami" etymology was discussed here a while back. Maybe this is of interest to some here. ---------- Why should Romanian "pastrama" be related to the Romanian verb "pastra"? Just because they look alike? Remember, there are folk-etymologies in all languages, not only in English. Perhaps when the word was adopted into Romanian it was given the form "pastrama" rather than "pastirma" [or whatever] simply to match the verb "pastra" [diacritical marks omitted throughout my message]. Note that the apparent cognates have "t[vowel]r" while Romanian alone has "tr[vowel]" (well, Moldavian has it too, but it's essentially a dialect of Romanian) ... e.g., Albanian "pasterma", Bulgarian "pasturma", Hungarian "pasztormany", Modern Greek "pastourmas", Armenian "basturma", Lebanese Arabic "bastirma", Georgian "basturma", Tatar "bastyrma". Now of course it's possible that the Romanian word was adopted into Ottoman Turkish and spread throughout the Ottoman territory after modification. However, J. A. C. Greppin's paper "The Etymology of _pastrami_" (J. English Linguistics 21:125-6 [1988]) (upon which I am leaning heavily) makes the following arguments against the Romanian/Latin origin: (1) There is no productive "-ma" suffix in Romanian. (2) Standard Romanian etymological dictionaries see "pastrama" as a Turkish loanword. (3) The word is attested in Hungarian much earlier than in Romanian (1626 vs. 1792). A correspondent finds Turkish "pasdirma" meaning "dried salted beef" supposedly from the 17th Century, but in an English translation dated 1834. Note that the Balkan/Ottoman/Middle-East referent is not like our pastrami. The modern Romanian-English dictionary translates "pastrama" as "pemmican". Greppin points out that the conventional Turkish etymology of "basdirma"/"pastirma" probably includes some folk-etymology too, since it invokes a causative infix "-dir-" where a passive stem is called for ("bas-" = "press") ... makes sense to me, but Turkish etymology is not my strong suit. Anyway, the word does not appear to be likely pan-Turkic but rather of Ottoman/Anatolian origin, the language of ultimate origin uncertain (says Greppin). It would seem to me that one likely source for the Ottoman word would be Byzantine Greek; so my casual amateurish thought is that perhaps "pastirma" reflects in part some cognate of the Classical Greek "pastos" = "salted" ... I think Barnhart presented this or a similar hypothesis. BTW the earliest (1792) Romanian citation is quoted from the Academy dictionary as "pastrama care vine din tara turceasca" = "pastrama which comes from the Turkish land". ---------- Do OED et al. currently favor origin from the Romanian verb "pastra"? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 04:31:54 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:31:54 -0400 Subject: Jinx Message-ID: I saw a discussion of the etymology of "jinx" on Dave Wilton's Web site. Our esteemed colleagues G. Cohen and B. Popik are quoted (from "Comments on Etymology" in 2001). I have reviewed the pertinent "CoE" article, and I'm not satisfied that the etymology of "jinx" = "hoodoo"/"hex" has been elucidated completely. Perhaps some of the local scholars have insights, or newly discovered material. I can see three obvious candidates for the ancestral word. (1) "Jynx" meaning "magical charm" or so, apparently favored by major dictionaries. I agree with Cohen and Popik that the word was too obscure/obsolete around 1908 to be a likely candidate (although obviously there are conceivable scenarios which might explain such a development, several of which were presented on the Web). (2) "Jinks" as a surname, apparently favored by Cohen and Popik. Of the literary examples given, however, only one (1859) seems to portray a Jinks character who has a devilish or ill-omened role. This seems too large a time-gap ... during which time there were other Jinkses (of course Jinks is after all a real surname) including two celebrated "Captain Jinks" military characters who do not embody attributes suitable for development into the modern "jinx" (IMHO). (3) The mild oath "by Jink[s]", which was equivalent to "by gosh"/"by golly". I believe this is a version of "by Jingo[es]" or "by jing[s]" (both quite venerable, used by A. Lincoln and by Mark Twain respectively) and not really equivalent to the surname except in form. I don't see why it should have furnished the modern sense of "jinx" (although I do find one instance of "by jinx" so spelled from the 19th century). This would be like saying "he put a gosh on me" for "he put a curse/hex on me". I have a few other odd notions which I can present later if there's any interest. Can anybody fill in the record or further justify some proposed etymology? -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Jul 29 08:29:01 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:29:01 +0100 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020728235210.025015a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > Can anybody fill in the record or further justify some proposed > etymology? Take a look at my own attempt, at . I have been able to show, through a book and play of the early years of the twentieth century, that the old song about Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines which Barry Popik unearthed was still well known just at the point at which it might have been taken up by baseball players. His suggestion is plausible, even though - as so often - key links in the chain of evidence are missing. For example, it may well be that the 1859 poem about the printer's devil named Jinks that he has since found is no more than a coincidence. Of course, it might also be that the name was chosen there, as it was for the Captain Jinks song, because it already had associations with bad luck or incompetence through a reference that we haven't (yet) turned up. That would throw the provenance of the term back beyond 1859. It is also possible that the link is to the relatively rare word "jynx" which dictionaries still give as the origin, thus ultimately proving them right! If you want to compare versions, Dave Wilton's is at . -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Jul 29 10:46:15 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:46:15 -0400 Subject: stick to business, please In-Reply-To: <4e.f0bcaf3.2a760248@aol.com> Message-ID: |o| complaining about his job. This is not a "contribution to the |o| intellectual |o| life of the community." No, but it does add to the sense of community. Some days we little folks just want to vent. Besides, a careful reading revealed a nuanced disagreement over definition and usage in one of the most rigidly structured linguist systems around, the law, and at least passingly on-topic for the list. As for the DEL key, if only we could have only the posts that interest us delivered to our mailboxes. Perhaps, version x.10 will provide it. rhk From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 29 12:50:29 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:50:29 -0700 Subject: O'Kun In-Reply-To: <000801c23510$9174e060$0bb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: I work with a man named Sjoblum, "sea blossom". There were too many Johnsons on the boat his ancestors came over on, so his progenitor was given the name of the boat. --- David Bergdahl wrote: > I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were > the ones writing out the > tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin > of my Swedish last name > in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians > got last names in the > early years of the 19th-century there were too many > Johnsons, Andersons, > Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming > convention, so the Swedish > equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people > should use familar > geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, > &c.--which is how we > got to be "mt-valley" people. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > nicht" > --Albert Einstein __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Mon Jul 29 13:29:15 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:29:15 -0400 Subject: FYI: Charlotte Read Message-ID: >Just in case anyone is interested - or wants to wish condolences to Allen >Walker Read. >... Charlotte died Thursday night. She had been in and out of hospitals >and nursing homes since February >with bronchitis. > >I'm not sure of Allen's current health, but ... this has to be a blow. I >had been told by a family friend that he was visiting her just about every day. > >I'll let you know as I find out more. >Steve Stockdale DFW Center for General Semantics From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:04:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:04:12 EDT Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" Message-ID: In a message dated 07/28/2002 11:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > Library, wrote that in 1905? > The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several > libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. > Something seems wrong here. Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia, copyright 1901, also lists Herman Rosenttaal as "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public Library" In a message dated 07/28/2002 4:50:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > From April to > June, 1881, a series of pogroms broke out in larger and smaller places in > southern and southwestern Russia; in the other parts of the empire there was > only one, at Warsaw in December. > --THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., NY, vol. 8, > pg. 559 (1969). This was an important event in American history, too, as the pogroms that started in 1881 caused a massive immigration of Eastern European Jews into the United States, converting the US Jewish community from one dominated demographically by Germans and Sephardim and "politically" by Reform Judaism into one with a very large Eastern European demographic and politics that put a stop to the dominance of the Reform movement and its assimilationist tendencies. (For some statistics on immigration to the US, see Jewish Encyclopedia, volume X, page 547 column 2). I strongly suspect that "1969" Ktav edition you cite is simply a photoreproduction of a somewhat earlier edition, in which case your 1969 date is overly, uh, Conservative. > OED has 1882 for "pogrom," then 1905. Merriam-Webster uses a 1903 date. > Clearly, I should come up with something in 1881, if not earlier. Our friend Herman Rosenthal supplies a clear 1901 citation. Jewish Encyclopedia volume I page 347 column 1 article "Alexander III., Alexandrovich" He ascended the throne March 14, 1881...Soon after Alexander III had ascended the throne, anti-Jewish riots (Pogromy) broke out in Elizabethgrad (April 27, 28), Kiev (May 8-11), Shpola (May 9), Ananiev (May 9), Wasilkov (May 10), Konotop (May 10), and during the following six months, in one hundred and sixty other places of southern Russia...It was clear that the riots were premeditated ("Voshkod", May 24, 1881, p. 75). To give but one example---a week before the pogrom of Kiev broke out, Von Hubbenet, chief of police of Kiev, warned some of his Jewish friends of the coming riots. In the above "Pogromy" was in small caps, indicating that an article with that title existed (or in this case, was to exist). There is an entry in Volume X page 100 for "Pogromy" but it merely states "See RUSSIA". In "the pogrom of Kiev", the word "pogrom" is in italics". Rosenthal's biography includes five English-language sources, of which the earliest is "US Congressional Record, 1882, iii. 657, 658". Now for something odd. The entry in volume X for "Poland" (page 102) also states "see RUSSIA". (In both cases "Russia" is in small caps, indicating an article under that entry.) The actual article on Poland begins on page 561 column 2 at the end of the article on "Russia", and is by the ubiquitous Herman Rosenthal. There is a footnote at the bottom of page 561 column 2 reading Owing to the recent disturbances in Russia, the article Poland [small caps], which was assigned to a Russian collaborator and which was to have appeared in its proepr vocabulary place, was not received. The only other caption under which it could be inserted is that under which it now appears. It is the Twenty-First Century and I am sitting in front of a computer (invented by Turing in 1936) and it is with a sense of shock that I realize "recent disturbances in Russia" means "the Revolution of 1905". - James A. Landau From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Jul 29 14:16:29 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:16:29 -0400 Subject: c-hat Message-ID: Hi All, Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. Am I barking up the right tree, here? Any help or leads would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:41:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:41:55 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 07/28/2002 2:35:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > _Adjournment Policy_ > Adjournments should only be granted in cases in which the documentation > the respondent seeks to present would bear directly on a finding of guilt. > Adjournments should never be granted when the sole impact of the > documentation would be to affect the amount of mitigation. > > The above policy is illegal. Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. In the situation above, > I almost always accept the sworn testimony and grant mitigation. I find an ADS-related interest in the preceding, specifically in the way Judge Popik absent-mindedly uses the jargon word "mitigation" in the last sentence quoted above. As a layman, I find the idea mind-boggling that someone might get a reduction in a parking ticket fine on the grounds that he has terminal cancer, but the existence of the quoted regulation implies that such is an everyday occurrence in New York City courts. > ...While I was out [indicting] a ham sandwich, this Penelope Cruz woman I met > yesterday on the plane showed up at my apartment house to meet me. It's a > good thing she didn't see this place. Wait'll I tell her that I can't > support a frog. On the contrary, you should have shown her your place. If she were not impressed by your talking dining room table, then she is not worth seeing. I notice that by not capitalizing "frog" you avoid making an ethnic slur. Hence you must be referring to "a frong in one's throat", which is a continuation of the recent thread on ADS-L about hoarse horses. ---------------------Even more OT ------------------------------------------------------------- The Ms and I spent Sunday getting lost in New York, New York, New York (our last-minute discovery that the train we were about to take went to Queens allow us to claim the triple repetition.) Coming into Port Authority Bus Terminal from New Jersey, your vehicle after descending from the top of the Palisades loops the loop twice. It is not common for a verb in English to be its own direct object, and here it does so twice. There was of all things a cop car hiding behind a billboard on the ramp leading into Port Authority Terminal. Yes, I am being metaphorical, as the cop was five stories over Ninth Avenue, yet can someone supply a better description. The only reason I can imagine for the presence of the officer was to catch people trying to drive the wrong way on the ramp. Hence he was not a "speed cop" but (as a physics professor once was quoted in Astounding Science Fiction) a "velocity cop". A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali moose track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried karats". ^ ^ ^ ^ ^? At the WTC site I asked a police officer how to get to "Port Authority". He politely asked me if I meant the Bus Terminal? As I should have realized, he was a Port Authority police officer and hence would be ontologically justified in answering "Present". (And at this point I must apologize for doubting the ADS-L correspondent who stated "Ontology recapitulates philology.) And this refers back to the recent thread on James Blish, who in both "Cities in Flight" and "Seedling Stars" drew an Orwellian portrait of a possible future evolution of the PA or NY and NJ. - Jim and Judy Landau PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" ("giblets") and hence is fleischig. From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:58:16 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:58:16 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" ("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though I may be recalling a less-pleasant Slavic body-part slang (?) word from my Czech-speaking childhood neighbors. And, yes, BUTTERS has a BUTT in it, and BUTTER can be a verb, etc.) And now I will just in a few minutes begin an endless series of postings--for the list's linguistic analysis--on such topics as the people I have met on planes who found me lovely and talented, my quarrels with the Duke University bookkeeping system, and the menus I have read on my travels. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 14:59:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:59:04 EDT Subject: c-hat Message-ID: In a message dated 07/29/2002 10:26:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity > theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant > writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he > outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. I have no information on your question, but I would like to comment that your terminology, to an engineer like me, is most strange. "c-hat" is how a mathematically-trained person refers to the letter c with a circumflex or caret over it. The letter plus circumflex is used in statistics to designate an estimate rather than an actual value (the theory behind the distinction was first worked out in 1908 by "Student" (pseudonym for W. S. Gosset), who made the discovery quite literally on company time---he was a brewmaster for Guinness who had been sent to study statistics under the elder Pearson. The hat symbol was introduced by Pearson's great rival Fisher in 1922). In other branches of mathematics the hat symbol is used to designate a conjectured number. For example, early in this century Brouwer defined the number "pi-hat" and devised a paradox based on whether pi-hat exists. To this day the paradox remains unsolved. "object-oriented" (and the acronym "OOPS" for "object-oriented programming system") has a highly specific meaning in computer programming. (If you have a rainy weekend, I'll explain it to you). I don't know when the term "object oriented" was invented in computer science, but it was a well-established term by the late 1980's. - Jim Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 15:43:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:43:12 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <12c.151266e9.2a76ae33@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:41 AM -0400 7/29/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali moose >track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried >karats". seems more appropriate for 47th Street > > >PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is obviously >milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >("giblets") and hence is fleischig. heh heh From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 16:25:44 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:25:44 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <152.11953695.2a76b208@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: #In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: # #<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is #obviously #milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" #("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> # #I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A #little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, #though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though Navel. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 16:52:07 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:52:07 -0400 Subject: Pastrami In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020728233856.024feec0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #Now of course it's possible that the Romanian word was adopted into Ottoman #Turkish and spread throughout the Ottoman territory after modification. #However, J. A. C. Greppin's paper "The Etymology of _pastrami_" (J. English #Linguistics 21:125-6 [1988]) (upon which I am leaning heavily) makes the #following arguments against the Romanian/Latin origin: I am not arguing FOR the Rom/Lat origin, about which I know only what I have seen in this thread, but I find some of these arguments against it weak. #(1) There is no productive "-ma" suffix in Romanian. Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. #Note that the Balkan/Ottoman/Middle-East referent is not like our pastrami. #The modern Romanian-English dictionary translates "pastrama" as "pemmican". And many of the products that pass in the US as frankfurters and wieners would probably not be accepted as the corresponding Wursts by residents of the German-speaking lands. For that matter, how much does Romanian pastrama really resemble genuine aboriginal North American pemmican? "Not like" is much in the eye (or tongue -- heh, take that as you like!) of the, um, whatever. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 16:58:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:58:48 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: ># >#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is >#obviously >#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> ># >#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A >#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, >#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > >Navel. > We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall anything similar? larry From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 17:11:10 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:11:10 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: [re: Yid. "pupik"] #>Navel. #> #We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or #otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it #wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't #have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' #in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there #seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall #anything similar? Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking kin. And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" (whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). -- Mark A. Mandel From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:16:26 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:16:26 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: >At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: >># >>#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is >>#obviously >>#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" >>#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> >># >>#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle >>that it is. A >>#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, >>#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though >> >>Navel. >> >We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >anything similar? It's the part I've also heard called the "Pope's nose" (or, I believe, "Pope's ass"), obviously not by the same people who call it the pupik. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:22:17 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:22:17 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:11 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >#At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [re: Yid. "pupik"] >#>Navel. >#> >#We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >#otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >#wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >#have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >#in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >#seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >#anything similar? > >Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking >kin. > >And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE >family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her >Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" >(whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). > Yes, you and Alice are right. What IS that little thingy (non-metaphorically)? L From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 17:23:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:23:01 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #Yes, you and Alice are right. What IS that little thingy (non-metaphorically)? The tail, more or less? -- Mark M. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:24:10 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:24:10 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:11 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > >#At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [re: Yid. "pupik"] >#>Navel. >#> >#We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or >#otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it >#wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't >#have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' >#in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there >#seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall >#anything similar? > >Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it, yup. From my wife's Yiddish-speaking >kin. > >And ISTR reading somewhere somebody saying that her Protestant/CofE >family called it the "Pope's nose", and was amused to learn that her >Catholic friend's family called it the "preacher's? vicar's? nose" >(whichever side of the Water it was, I don't recall). > >-- Mark A. Mandel Isn't that "thing" the fleshy appendage out of which the tail feathers grow? It's edible, as long as you don't know where it's appended on the chicken. . . . From mkuha at BSU.EDU Mon Jul 29 17:51:14 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:51:14 -0500 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: I finally got a copy of that book that Larry mentioned, "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim and other flubs from the nation's press", and learned from it that the Columbia Journalism Review has a regular feature with such items, called "The Lower case". It is on the inside back cover of each issue. Some headlines are funny but linguistically not-so-interesting typos or inanities ("Journalists say voters hold key to November election"), but most issues have at least a couple of nice examples of syntactic or scope ambiguity or something else of interest (in the most recent issue, "Police Stop Slaying Suspect Look-alikes" and "Panda Lectures This Week at National Zoo"). mk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Jul 29 18:23:02 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:23:02 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: The term "cold war" is commonly said (in Safire's New Political Dictionary, for example) to have been introduced by Bernard Baruch in a 1947 speech ghosted by Herbert Bayard Swope. Sources propounding this assertion neglect the fact that the OED has a 1945 usage by George Orwell. I have now found a much earlier example, earlier than any possible unpublished usage by Swope: 1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 18:27:20 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:27:20 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 12:25:55 PM, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: << PUPEK means ... Navel. -- Mark M. >> <> I would have sworn that the pupek was (among the second-generation Czech children in my neighborhood) the lower opening of the alimentary canal, but that just goes to show you how selective our childhood LINGUISTIC memories can be. Or maybe this was a further shift from the tail of the chicken that Larry and others remember. As we all now, Slavic andYiddish share a lot of comon vocabulary. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Jul 29 18:46:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <3D450ADD.24344.2ADFF2@localhost> Message-ID: >... the old song about Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines which Barry >Popik unearthed was still well known just at the point at which it might >have been taken up by baseball players. The Captain Jinks song was still in the song-book at my school around 1960; I remember the corn and beans well! >... it may well be that the 1859 poem about the printer's devil named >Jinks that he has since found is no more than a coincidence. Reading the 1859 poem from Cohen and Popik in CoE 31(1):6-8: <<.... "Sure, that must be Jinks," we muttered-- "Jinks that's knocking at our door; Jinks, the everlasting bore." .... we opened wide the door. But phancey, now, our pheelinks For it wasn't Jinks, the bore-- Jinks, nameless evermore. But the form that stood before us, Caused a trembling to come o'er us, .... 'Twas the form of our "devil," ....>> It appears that the newspaperman opens the door expecting Jinks, but -- surprise! -- it's NOT Jinks, but RATHER the "devil" with an unwelcome demand. Am I missing something here? Jinks just stands in for an anonymous imaginary visitor in Poe's poem, right? And I would take "Jinks" to be a nonentity-name used like "Jones" sometimes is used. As for Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines, the song goes "That's the curse of the Army", not "He's the curse of the Army", right? I think Jinks in the song is just a soldier-buffoon, not a jinx or Jonah. The other Captain Jinks, in the 1902 novel, is without jinx-like character. The "Captain Jinks" song is quoted in the novel with a remark as to the coincidence of names, BTW. I think the name was chosen for the novel as meaning "military chauvinistic idiot" or so; however, by 1902 "Jinks" may have been a minimally-masked version of "Jingo" in its modern sense, to essentially the same effect. >Of course, it might also be that the name was chosen there, as it was for >the Captain Jinks song, because it already had associations with bad luck >or incompetence through a reference that we haven't (yet) turned up. Possible, but review of many 19th-century uses of the name at MoA does not suggest this to me. There does seem to be a correlation (imperfect) with the military, probably secondary to the famous song. >It is also possible that the link is to the relatively rare word "jynx" >which dictionaries still give as the origin, thus ultimately proving them >right! Possible. But the sole OED citation of "jynx" = "charm" appears to be pre-1700, and it shows the obscure Latin plural form "jynges". The big Century Dictionary of 1889 shows the equivalents "iynx" and "yunx" as headwords -- neither pronounced at all like "jinx" -- but "jynx" itself gets no entry, nor does "jinx"; only the bird ("wryneck") meaning is included anyway (no mention of magic). -- Doug Wilson From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 19:01:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:01:43 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #I have now found a much earlier example, earlier than any possible #unpublished usage by Swope: # #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? -- Mark A. Mandel From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM Mon Jul 29 19:08:12 2002 From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:08:12 -0400 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: <134.11f1daab.2a74eaa2@aol.com> Message-ID: Didn't Carl Perkins have a song titled "Honey Don't"? On 7/28/02 2:35 AM, "Bapopik at AOL.COM" wrote: > HONEY DO / HONEY DEW > > "Honey Do" (song), THE BEST OF EDDIE CANO, 1962. Originally 1958? > > "Honey Do!" (song), PROGRESSIVE JAZZ STYLES, Anthony Mecca, 1959. > > "My madness was melons," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 24 June 1933, pp. 10+. > Probably has something if I have a chance to see the text. > > "Honey Do!," SATURDAY EVENING POST, 9 January 1932, pp. 14-15. > > "The African Glide" (song), by James T. Duffy, 1910. The first line is "Come > on honey do, and I'll show it to you." > > "Kiss Me, Honey Do" (song), by John Stromberg, 1899. > > "Do Your Honey Do; a Coon Song," by Theodore A. Meto, 1897. > > "Come Down, Ma Honey Do!" (song), by Hugh Morton and Gustave Kerker, 1894. ? Bob Haas Department of English High Point University "Wherever you go, there you are." From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Jul 29 19:05:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:05:11 -0700 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729064941.024cb390@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > It appears that the newspaperman opens the door expecting > Jinks, but -- > surprise! -- it's NOT Jinks, but RATHER the "devil" with an unwelcome > demand. Am I missing something here? Jinks just stands in for > an anonymous > imaginary visitor in Poe's poem, right? And I would take > "Jinks" to be a > nonentity-name used like "Jones" sometimes is used. I inferred that use of "devil" is a double entendre. Not only is the poet implying that Jinks is an evil, vexatious man for making such demands on a poor reporter, but he is also using the printing jargon term for assistant/apprentice ("printer's devil"). Jinks is the editor's assistant and newspapermen would be familiar with both senses of "devil." And yes, "Jinks" in the poem is a non-entity name like Jones. This is one of the early uses of the name in literature, but one where we begin to see the association with vexing behavior/bad luck. I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have to update my site to make explicit mention of it. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Jul 29 19:32:11 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:32:11 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <152.11953695.2a76b208@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A > little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, > though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > I may be recalling a less-pleasant Slavic body-part slang (?) word from my > Czech-speaking childhood neighbors. And, yes, BUTTERS has a BUTT in it, and > BUTTER can be a verb, etc.) The pupek is the navel, in Czech I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly button). -- Steve Kl. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 19:32:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:32:52 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <002b01c23732$dd9de440$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have #to update my site to make explicit mention of it. I've been following this thread and forwarding parts of it to my wife. We've known Captain Jinks for many years, thanks to Laura Ingalls Wilder's "Little House" novels. (Don't speak to me about the TV version.) I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines I feed my horse on corn and beans I court the pretty girls in their teens And I often live beyond my means I'm captain in the Army! (from memory, from one of the books) -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 29 20:06:31 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:06:31 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > >#I also hadn't realized the Captain Jinks song was so well known. I'll have >#to update my site to make explicit mention of it. > >I've been following this thread and forwarding parts of it to my wife. >We've known Captain Jinks for many years, thanks to Laura Ingalls >Wilder's "Little House" novels. (Don't speak to me about the TV >version.) > > I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines > I feed my horse on corn and beans > I court the pretty girls in their teens > And I often live beyond my means > I'm captain in the Army! > >(from memory, from one of the books) > >-- Mark A. Mandel ~~~~~~~ We sang the version above when I was in grade school. But I find on my bookshelf the version below. >>From /Favorite Songs of the People/ songbook, copyright 1927 Theodore Presser Co., Phila.: I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines; I feed my horse on corn and beans, And sport young ladies in their teens, Tho' captain in the army. I teach young ladies how to dance, how to dance, how to dance I teach young ladies how to dance, for I'm the pet of the army. I joined my corps when twenty-one. Of course I thought it capital fun. When the enemy came, of course I run, For I'm not cut out for the army. When I left home, Mama she cried, Mama she cried, Mama she cried. When I left home, Mama she cried, He's not cut out for the army. A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 20:07:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:07:04 EDT Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: In a message dated 07/29/2002 10:58:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > BUTTER can be a verb Yes, as in "to butter a brick", meaning (for a bricklayer) to coat a brick with mortar before placing it in the wall or other brick item being constructed. Since mortar is quite alkaline (due to the slaked lime in it), then "to butter him up" obviously means "to be extremely caustic towards him". And if you make a mistake with the mortar, then you get to use one of my favorite English expressions (which I will use now because I NEVER get the proper context for it): you call in an artisan known as a "tuckpointer" who performs the actions of tucking and pointing. All I can say about "pupek" is that my wife's family uses it to mean giblets. It is possible that this usage is due to the location in which Empire Poultry packs the giblets in a frozen Kosher turkey. - Jim Landau (non-Yiddish speaker) P.S. In my most recent "Odessa" thread post, I failed to state that the copyright date of Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia is 1901. Also for "Rosenthal's biography" read "Rosenthal's bibliography." I have no idea when the NYPL acquired the name of "New York Public Library" but circa 1900 is plausible, since a lot of public libraries were founded with Carnegie money about that time. In a message dated 07/29/2002 12:55:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that > happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? > ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk > etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so > this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. You're putting Descartes before de horse. By definition, a folk etymology is one that seizes on a chance resemblance in form, e.g. "Jerusalem artichoke" from "girasole". From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Jul 29 20:04:29 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:04:29 -0500 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? Gerald Cohen >At 12:51 PM -0500 7/29/02, Mai Kuha wrote: >I finally got a copy of that book that Larry mentioned, "Squad Helps Dog >Bite Victim and other flubs from the nation's press", and learned from it >that the Columbia Journalism Review has a regular feature with such items, >called "The Lower case". It is on the inside back cover of each issue. Some >headlines are funny but linguistically not-so-interesting typos or inanities >("Journalists say voters hold key to November election"), but most issues >have at least a couple of nice examples of syntactic or scope ambiguity or >something else of interest (in the most recent issue, "Police Stop Slaying >Suspect Look-alikes" and "Panda Lectures This Week at National Zoo"). >mk From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Jul 29 20:31:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:31:24 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <82.1f122440.2a76fa68@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #In a message dated 07/29/2002 12:55:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> Is there a non-productive suffix "-ma", or even a number of words that #> happen to end in "-ma" with no common synchronic or diachronic origin? #> ISTM, albeit without examining the matter in a scholarly way, that folk #> etymology is willing to seize on even a chance resemblance in form, so #> this lack, circumscribed as it is in this description, means little. # #You're putting Descartes before de horse. By definition, a folk etymology is #one that seizes on a chance resemblance in form, e.g. "Jerusalem artichoke" #from "girasole". Don't saddle me with that! I was responding to an argument that seemed to ignore that fact by specifically saying there was no *productive* suffix. -- Mark A. Mandel From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Mon Jul 29 20:46:24 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:46:24 -0700 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta Message-ID: The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta > At 12:25 PM -0400 7/29/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >#In a message dated 7/29/2002 10:42:21 AM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: > ># > >#<< PS. We have to keep Mssrs. Butters and Popik apart. "Butters" is > >#obviously > >#milchig. "Popik" is a variant spelling of the Yiddish word "pupik" > >#("giblets") and hence is fleischig. >> > ># > >#I love this! Thanks so much for making this all seem the trifle that it is. A > >#little judicious humor nearly always puts things in perspective. (My memory, > >#though, is that PUPEK means something quite different from 'giblets', though > > > >Navel. > > > We used it to describe a little edible thing on a broiled (or > otherwise cooked) chicken. I'm sure it wasn't a belly button, but it > wasn't giblets either (those we removed before cooking and wouldn't > have eaten anyway). Pupik/Pupek is definitely 'belly button, navel' > in Yiddish (pupik oranges, anyone?), but at least in our family there > seems to have been this metaphorical extension. Anyone else recall > anything similar? > > larry > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 29 22:22:18 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:22:18 -0700 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: from the Palo Alto Daily News a while back: Trucks leads police to molest suspect alas, "molestation suspect" was too long to fit. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Jul 29 22:36:09 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:36:09 -0700 Subject: headline humor source Message-ID: correction: Truck leads police to molest suspect arnold, apologizing for the anticipatory -s From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Jul 29 22:39:45 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:39:45 -0400 Subject: headline humor source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/29/02 16:04, "Gerald Cohen" wrote: > Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in > the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. > My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the > headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." > I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help > thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? How sure are you there was no humor intended? Journalists go to great lengths to work these sorts of things into headlines. Every once in a while the Bong Bull newsletter ( http://gondwanaland.com/bong/ ) features them, with reporters explaining whether it was intended or not (usually it was, with the half-hope that an editor would catch it before publication). I believe the Letters page at Romenesko's MediaNews ( http://www.poynter.org/medianews/ ) had a similar thread. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Jul 29 23:04:24 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:04:24 -0400 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: <003801c23741$01c3b440$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com> Message-ID: Jerome Foster writes: >The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. ~~~~~~~~ I can't say about pupik/pupek, but the "pope's nose" is undoubtedly the tail. The holes left by the tail feathers can be easily seen. It's been a few years since I last dressed a chicken, but IIRC there is a little gland at the base of the tail on the dorsal side that needs to be removed, and then the tail may be cut off, but it is edible. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Jul 29 23:53:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:53:04 EDT Subject: Meschugge, Schlimmassel (1881); Chutzpa (1883) Message-ID: MESCHUGGE, SCHLIMMASSEL From the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London), 12 August 1881, pg. 10. col. 2: _THE JUDEO-GERMAN DIALECT._ This dialect generally known by the name of _Judisch-Deutsch_ is a mixture of an archaic German basis with a great many Hebrew roots, Germanised as to their form, and many corruptions from Slavonjic and other idioms. (...) On the other hand this idiom furnishes a clue to several entirely non-German expressions and phrases that are currently used in South Germany, such as _uzen_ (to banter), _meschugge_ (crazy), _schote_ (fool), _schlimmassel_ (ill-luck), _schlemihl_ (an awkward person), &c. (The revised OED has 1885 for "meshugge"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHUTZPA From THE AMERICAN HEBREW, 1 June 1883, pg/ 30, col. 1: _CHUTZPA._ (The word in Hebrew lettering follows--ed.) My children, there is one word in the Hebrew language, which, often used in common conversation, is most expressive for the idea that it seeks to convey. This word I mean is the word _Chutzpa_, which word, no doubt, is not foreign to your ears. And yet, although every one is familiar with this term, still there are only a few who know its full meaning and import. (This speech is given by Dr. Baar to the children at the Hebrew Orphan Asylum. There's no indiction in the text of the famous "orphan chutzpah" joke, but perhaps it did develop this early?--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 30 00:10:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:10:52 -0500 Subject: "Clever Police Chief Arrested" Message-ID: Grant Barrett asks how I can be sure there was no humor intended in the above headline. Answer: I've lived in Rolla, Missouri for 34 years and have never seen humor in the headlines of my local newspaper. It's just not part of the culture here. Gerald Cohen >At 6:39 PM -0400 7/29/02, Grant Barrett wrote: >On 7/29/02 16:04, "Gerald Cohen" wrote: > >> Here's another example. There's a Misouri town named Clever, and in >> the 1980s the police chief there did something that got him arrested. >> My local newspaper (Rolla Daily News) carried the story with the >> headline: "Clever Police Chief Arrested." >> I'm sure there was no humor intended, but I couldn't help >> thinking: If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested? > >How sure are you there was no humor intended? Journalists go to great >lengths to work these sorts of things into headlines. Every once in a while >the Bong Bull newsletter ( http://gondwanaland.com/bong/ ) features them, >with reporters explaining whether it was intended or not (usually it was, >with the half-hope that an editor would catch it before publication). I >believe the Letters page at Romenesko's MediaNews ( >http://www.poynter.org/medianews/ ) had a similar thread. From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 30 00:43:52 2002 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:43:52 -0500 Subject: Stick to Business, Pozhalsta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 7/29/02 6:04 PM, sagehen at sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM wrote: > Jerome Foster writes: > >> The seeming appendage was probably not an appendage but the gizzard. > ~~~~~~~~ > I can't say about pupik/pupek, but the "pope's nose" is undoubtedly the > tail. The holes left by the tail feathers can be easily seen. > It's been a few years since I last dressed a chicken, but IIRC there is a > little gland at the base of the tail on the dorsal side that needs to be > removed, and then the tail may be cut off, but it is edible. > A. Murie > Yes, the tail. It has some vertebrae in it. DMLance From funkmasterj at RUNBOX.COM Tue Jul 30 00:51:53 2002 From: funkmasterj at RUNBOX.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:51:53 GMT Subject: OT: Spanish Message-ID: Hi, I am well aware the function of this list is primarily English, but could someone recommend a Spanish immersion CD or refer me to someone who can? Sorry for the off topic message. Jordan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 01:05:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:05:08 EDT Subject: Kosher restaurant, Kosher wine, Kosher food, Kosher supper (1881) Message-ID: I haven't seen "pogrom" used to describe the 1881 disturbances, but I'll get to that at another time. "Kosher restaurant" received big play in the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London). I'll look in the AMERICAN HEBREW for America's first "kosher restaurant," which probably followed in the 1880s soon afterwards. OED has later entries like this under an overly broad category of "kosher shop." (Feb?) 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONCLE, pg. 13, col. 4 ad: PARIS--("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT. Madame VEUVE LEVI. RUE, GEOFFROY MARIE, 5, Near the Boulevards Montmartre, Paris. New and highly comfortable establishment. 25 March 1881, JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 1: Everyone knows the story of the Pole who obtained a pair of false _Payas_ so that he might appear in them in Prussian Posen and evade the scissors in Russian Wilna. (...) ...permission should be given to the congregation to supply _kosher_ food to the Jewish recruits. (...) ...and gave at the same time another proof of the truth, "every country has the Jew it deserves." (OED has 1898 for "payos," from Zangwill...Does Fred Shapiro have this famous quote from Berthold Auerbach (1812-1882)?--ed.) 20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 2 title of letter to the newspaper: THE KOSHER RESTAURANT COMPANY. 20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: WEIL'S IMPERIAL ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT 132, HOUNSDITCH. NOW OPEN. 24 June 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 15, col. 2 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) KOSHER RESTAURANT CO. (LIMITED). 15, UNION COURT, OLD BROAD STREET. 1 July 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 1: WINE MERCHANTS. _JAMESON & SONS_, 85 Mansell Street, E. Importers of ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) Wines. 29 July 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 125, col. 2: _KOSHER RESTAURANTS._ Many of our readers are doubtless unaware of the fact that while in this country little attention is paid to the dietary laws by the multitude of travelers, and particularly by commercial travelers, in England it is quite the contrary. Wherever one goes, one or more Kosher boarding houses are to be found... (A reprint of THE JEWISH CHRONICLE's article about London's Kosher restaurant follows--ed.) 2 December 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 25, col. 2: IT is to the credit of the Young Men's Hebrew Association that such efforts have been made to secure a Kosher supper for those who attend the Chanucka Ball. From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Tue Jul 30 01:06:09 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:06:09 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory Message-ID: Any responses on my earlier inquiry? Please forgive me if it is an inappropriate request. Hi All, Can anyone here tell me who coined the term Cultural-historical activity theory, (CHAT) and where it first appeared in print? My earliest extant writing on this is Karl Marx in his Theses On Feuerbach (1845) where he outlines his theory on object-oriented activity or labor. Am I barking up the right tree, here? Any help or leads would be greatly appreciated. Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU Tue Jul 30 01:42:24 2002 From: aaal2003 at HAWAII.EDU (American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) 2003) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:42:24 -1000 Subject: Submit now!! AAAL 2003 deadline is August 26! Message-ID: Submit now!! AAAL 2003 deadline is August 26! Call for Papers: AAAL 2003 The annual conference of the American Association for Applied Linguistics (AAAL) will be held March 22-25, 2003 at the Sheraton National Hotel in Arlington, VA, across the Potomac River from Washington, DC. Proposals for presentations related to policy, research, and theory are invited in any area of applied linguistics. Proposals may be for individual papers, poster sessions, or colloquia. The abstract submission and refereeing process will be paperless this year. Instructions regarding abstract preparation and online submission and other aspects of the conference may be found on the organization's website: www.aaal.org/aaal2003/ Proposals may be submitted online until the deadline of August 26, 2002. Please join us in Arlington for AAAL 2003! From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Tue Jul 30 05:13:46 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 01:13:46 -0400 Subject: Kosher restaurant, Kosher wine, Kosher food, Kosher supper (1881) In-Reply-To: <182.bd17d0f.2a774044@aol.com> Message-ID: Some references for 'kosher': An 1874 article in The Galaxy on 'The Jewish Dietary System': http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ACB8727-0018-88 An 1897 article in Harpers: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABK4014-0094-5&type=boolean&slice=1&&&q1=kosher&op2=And&op3=And&year1=1815&year2=1926&rgn=Same%20page&searchSummary=8%20matching%20%20journal%20articles&size=50&layer=third&coll=serial1 Also, although it follows in medieval antisemitic tradition (and the magazine itself notes this and says that a rebuttal will be made in the next issue), this article in The Century by Zenaide Ragozin in 1882: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABP2287-0023-273 is a discussion of Russian Jews, which includes mention of the pogroms (but does not use that word as far as I can tell) and on page 913, references 'kosher'. The rebuttal article in the next issue, also published in 1882 is available here: http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=ABP2287-0024-9 Note that a line from the Ragozin article is cited in The Century Dictionary, published in 1889, for the word 'kosher'. An online image is available at: http://216.156.253.178/cgi-bin/nph-cent2jpg?volno=04&page=3311 Philip Trauring > I haven't seen "pogrom" used to describe the 1881 disturbances, but I'll >get to that at another time. > "Kosher restaurant" received big play in the JEWISH CHRONICLE (London). >I'll look in the AMERICAN HEBREW for America's first "kosher restaurant," >which probably followed in the 1880s soon afterwards. > OED has later entries like this under an overly broad category of "kosher >shop." > >(Feb?) 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONCLE, pg. 13, col. 4 ad: >PARIS--("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT. > Madame VEUVE LEVI. > RUE, GEOFFROY MARIE, 5, >Near the Boulevards Montmartre, Paris. >New and highly comfortable establishment. > >25 March 1881, JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 10, col. 1: > Everyone knows the story of the Pole who obtained a pair of false _Payas_ >so that he might appear in them in Prussian Posen and evade the scissors in >Russian Wilna. (...) > ...permission should be given to the congregation to supply _kosher_ food >to the Jewish recruits. (...) > ...and gave at the same time another proof of the truth, "every country >has the Jew it deserves." >(OED has 1898 for "payos," from Zangwill...Does Fred Shapiro have this famous >quote from Berthold Auerbach (1812-1882)?--ed.) > >20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 6, col. 2 title of letter to the >newspaper: > THE KOSHER RESTAURANT COMPANY. > >20 May 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: > WEIL'S >IMPERIAL ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT >132, HOUNSDITCH. >NOW OPEN. > >24 June 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 15, col. 2 ad: > ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) >KOSHER RESTAURANT CO. (LIMITED). >15, UNION COURT, OLD BROAD STREET. > >1 July 1881, THE JEWISH CHRONICLE, pg. 4, col. 1: > WINE MERCHANTS. >_JAMESON & SONS_, 85 Mansell Street, E. Importers of ("Kosher" in >Hebrew--ed.) Wines. > >29 July 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 125, col. 2: > _KOSHER RESTAURANTS._ > Many of our readers are doubtless unaware of the fact that while in this >country little attention is paid to the dietary laws by the multitude of >travelers, and particularly by commercial travelers, in England it is quite >the contrary. Wherever one goes, one or more Kosher boarding houses are to >be found... >(A reprint of THE JEWISH CHRONICLE's article about London's Kosher restaurant >follows--ed.) > >2 December 1881, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 25, col. 2: > IT is to the credit of the Young Men's Hebrew Association that such >efforts have been made to secure a Kosher supper for those who attend the >Chanucka Ball. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 06:25:25 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 02:25:25 EDT Subject: Iconostasis, Bashlik, Kurgan (1825) Message-ID: TRAVELS IN RUSSIA, THE KRIMEA, THE CAUCASUS, AND GEORGIA by Robert Lyall in two volumes London: T. Cadell 1825 VOLUME ONE Pg. 6: The tomb of Christ, with saints around it, and the dungeon in which he is sitting in a meloncholy attitude, with a black mantle thrown over him, and an armed guard on each side, form a kind of _ikonostas_, or transept, and only claim notice because all the figures, which are about a foot in height, appear to be cut out of wood or some other solid substance, and receive the _homage_ of the passing peasantry, and at least the _reverance_ even of the nobles and the clergy. (OED and M-W have 1833 for "iconostasis"--ed.) Pg. 135: ...whence the adage, "_Buy not a village, but buy a steward for yourself_." Pg. 136: ...a Russian proverb: "_Every lime-tree is not in a line_." Pg. 220: The word _burcha_ admits of no other translation than that of felt-mantle. It is nearly half an inch thick, and is often covered with long hair, for the most part of a black or brown colour. It forms an inseparable part of the Tartar's and the mountaineer's travelling _appareil_, every where in the Krimea, the Caucasus, and in Georgia; and, I believe, it is likewise used in Persia. (See past post on "burka"--ed.) Pg. 428: The peasants have still a saying among them, that "potatoes are not an article of God's giving, or he would have given them to the Russians." This nonsense, however, is annually becoming less credited, and the common people begin to consume considerable quantities of this invaluable root. Pg. 464: The weather still being very unfavourable, we took a hint from the custom of the natives of these mountainous regions, and provided ourselves with _burchas_, of which I have already spoken*, and with great thick white flannel hoods, called _bashliks_, which covered our caps. (OED has 1881 for "bashlik." This beats my two prior posts on this word--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 240: But, at some versts from the town, he ordered a halt to be made at a small _kurgan_, or tumulus. (OED has 1889 and 1890 for "kurgan"--ed.) Pg. 266: It often happened, that he had no more than 300 or 400 roubles in the house; but the exterior changed not: he continued to live like a _millionaire_ (this word is adopted in Russ). Pg. 293: ...the proverb that "_A merchant will sell his face_." Pg. 455: The "_dirty and abominable broth_" to which Dr. Clark alludes, was most likely _stchi_, or sour cabbage soup, which is a favourite dish of the Russians, and although its odour is not the most agreeable, it is highly relished by foreigners after a short residence in their country. (The prior page notes the book _Clarke's Travels_. OED has 1824 for this soup, but see prior ADS-L posts on this variously spelled soup--ed.) From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 09:34:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 05:34:26 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good meeting, etc.). rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 10:38:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:38:37 EDT Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments Message-ID: BIRTHDAY RESTAURANT--It's not a very popular word combination, with only about 30 hits each on Google and its newsgroups. However, there's been a recent NEW YORK OBSERVER article by Alexandra Jacobs on this (also on Google), so it might pick up steam. A "birthday restaurant" is a place where you go to celebrate your birthday. Some New Yorkers try to avoid them for just this reason. REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand island dressing on rye bread. BRITISH BURGER/LONDON BURGER--I recently posted from Alaska about a "London Burger" that contained Canadian bacon and American and Swiss cheeses. A 1980s menu in the LAPL collection from Denny's (a large restaurant chain) has, in its "Hamburger Hall of Fame," a "Britishburger" with bacon slices and melted cheese. Others on this list can verify any geographical and culinary accuracy. MOZZARELLA STICKS--I don't know what the upcoming OED "mozzarella" entry will look like, but "mozzarella sticks" have become very popular, especially after Burger King introduced them to its menu. Tommy Lasorda's Ribs and Pasta, 14131 Marquesas Way, Marina Del Ray, had "Fried Mozzarella Sticks" on its menu in 1987. SWAPTIONS--I found this word while catching up on my reading. I checked, and it hasn't been mentioned on ADS-L, it's not on the WordSpy, and it's not in the OED. It's standard terminology and it shouldn't fall unnoticed. O.T.: RON BUTTERS' COMMENTS ("stick to business") Yes, I'm deeply offended by Ron's comments. It's no secret at all that there are many lawyers on this list. An off-topic legal comment is intended for them and a few other people. I don't have to explain that, but I guess that I do. I do thousands of etymological posts ("business") that involve a great deal of effort. "Ham sandwich" is a very good example. Years ago, I e-mailed my own law school about this, and got no reply. So I spent a great deal of my own money and flew to Berlin to speak directly to Sol Wachtler. And I got hit for law school donations while at a concentration camp. I returned to the NYPL, found the quote, and posted it here free of charge. Some people might want to know how I'm able to do this business. Stick to business? That's the point I was trying to make! It's a "business" where I don't get paid and seldom get credit or recognized for my work. I am able to do the "business" only because no one loves me, I have no children, both of my parents are dead, I live in a very tiny apartment, and I'm able to work at a government job where I deny people due process of law. Ron can separate one from the other. But for me, the sadness will always be there. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 30 10:56:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:56:54 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: #"...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." # #Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 # #I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing #this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good #meeting, etc.). I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was (and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line "Anna" Head gives great costume. Obviously not productive, but there it was. -- Mark M. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Jul 30 11:59:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:59:33 -0400 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020729064941.024cb390@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: It has been stated that Jinks is the printer's devil (i.e., apprentice or assistant) in the poem. Let me quote my excerpt again: <<.... "Sure, that must be Jinks," we muttered-- "Jinks that's knocking at our door; Jinks, the everlasting bore." .... we opened wide the door. But phancey, now, our pheelinks For it wasn't Jinks, the bore-- Jinks, nameless evermore. But the form that stood before us, Caused a trembling to come o'er us, .... 'Twas the form of our "devil," ....>> Let me amplify and simplify the line which I meant to emphasize (the 6th line of text in the above excerpt): <<... IT WASN'T JINKS ...>> It was the "devil" (printer's, and maybe other too), but ** IT WASN'T JINKS. ** The name "Jinks" never appears again after the line with "nameless evermore"; as for the "devil" at the door, "IT WASN'T JINKS". *** JINKS WAS NOT GIVEN AS THE NAME OF THE "DEVIL" IN THE POEM! JINKS WAS SOMEBODY ELSE ENTIRELY! *** At least that's how it looks to me. Sorry for shouting. -- Doug Wilson From mlv at POBOX.COM Tue Jul 30 12:16:51 2002 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:16:51 -0400 Subject: Odessa and "Pogrom" In-Reply-To: <20020730040017.096B12C7F4@dolly1.pobox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:04:12 EDT, "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 07/28/2002 11:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > > Herman Rosenthal, Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > > Library, wrote that in 1905? > > The NYPL's building on Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street combined several > > libraries (Astor and Lenox Libraries, for example) and opened in 1911. > > Something seems wrong here. > > Volume I of the Jewish Encyclopedia, copyright 1901, also lists Herman > Rosenttaal as "Chief of the Slavonic Department of the New York Public > Library" I just checked nypl.org, and according to them, the New York Public Library (the organization, not the building) was formed in 1895. The branches were created in or after 1901. And it took 16 years to build the NYPL building. Michael ...back to lurking... From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Jul 30 13:37:27 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:37:27 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your query about the origin of cultural-historical activity theory didn't seem inappropriate to me at all! However, I wasn't able to find any information about the word in our databases or files. You say you've found the phrase used in Marx -- would this be in the German text or in an English translation from the German? Is it possible the English term was coined as a calque on a German locution? Or is it possible that the term was coined very recently (and is being used in restricted circles) to name an intellectual movement that originated in Marx? It's important to distinguish between the origin of a WORD and the origin of the THING that word represents -- they're completely different entities. In any case, sorry for the lack of information. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster, Inc. From mssmith at BOONE.NET Tue Jul 30 14:01:23 2002 From: mssmith at BOONE.NET (Susan Dean Gilbert) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:01:23 -0400 Subject: cultural historical activity theory Message-ID: Thank you anyway, Joanne. I thought I'd give it a shot. Best, Susan Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne M. Despres" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: cultural historical activity theory > Your query about the origin of cultural-historical activity theory > didn't seem inappropriate to me at all! However, I wasn't able to > find any information about the word in our databases or files. You > say you've found the phrase used in Marx -- would this be in the > German text or in an English translation from the German? Is it > possible the English term was coined as a calque on a German > locution? Or is it possible that the term was coined very recently > (and is being used in restricted circles) to name an intellectual > movement that originated in Marx? It's important to distinguish > between the origin of a WORD and the origin of the THING that > word represents -- they're completely different entities. > > In any case, sorry for the lack of information. > > Joanne Despres > Merriam-Webster > > Joanne Despres > Merriam-Webster, Inc. > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 14:18:21 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:18:21 -0400 Subject: Swaption, Swap Agreement Message-ID: A swaption is an option to enter into a specified swap agreement. The earliest use I've seen of this Wall Street terminology is from 1987: >>"I'm fed-up with tax exotica, 'swaptions' and the like," said one treasurer who produced his diary to show six appointments with "unknown" banks over the past few days.<< Angela Mackay, "The Great Banker Glut," Australian Financial Review, Feb. 3, 1987. "Swap agreement" doesn't seem to be in the OED either, at least not in this sense. A swap agreement is an agreement to exchange the cash flows from two assets; interest rate swaps are the most typical. Swaps and swaptions are usually entered into using standard documentation from the International Swap Dealers Association, which was chartered in 1985. Here's the earliest use I've seen, from 1982: >>AMFAC and Finance for Industry then exchanged their loans and signed a swap agreement under which AMFAC pays the fixed 15.25% interest on Finance for Industry's Eurobond borrowing. AMFAC also pays the 0.625 percentage point margin on the floating rate loan, but Finance for Industry pays the remaining interest on that loan interest set at the floating London rate.<< Dow Jones News Service, July 7, 1982. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments SWAPTIONS--I found this word while catching up on my reading. I checked, and it hasn't been mentioned on ADS-L, it's not on the WordSpy, and it's not in the OED. It's standard terminology and it shouldn't fall unnoticed. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 15:23:46 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:23:46 EDT Subject: ... Butter's Comments Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/2002 6:39:02 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << Yes, I'm deeply offended by Ron's comments. It's no secret at all that there are many lawyers on this list. An off-topic legal comment is intended for them and a few other people. I don't have to explain that, but I guess that I do. >> I am sorry that Mr. Popik was offended. I do not take offense at the fact (if it is a fact) that many of my postings may be of no interest whatever to him (or some others who subscribe to ADS-L) I mentioned the fact that I personally find little of interest in Mr. Popik's lexicographical postings ONLY as a way of emphasizing that I nonetheless firmly support his posting them. I am told by people I respect that Popik's work is extremely useful to the many lexicographers who participate in ADS-L, and it has always been clear that they are very interesting to many of the subscribers. I occasionally read them myself when the particular word is of interest to me. I am grateful that he generates so much interest in ADS-L and thereby in the study of American English, which is the central purpose of this list. What I do object to is when he uses the list for irrelevant personal purposes. This includes venting about off-topic legal issues, which was what brought my initial criticism. Comments addressed only to lawyers are outside the scope of this list and should be posted elsewhere. There are in fact many special interests represented on this list that normal users would not think of mentioning. Do we really want an ADS-L where the feminists address remarks only to the other feminists, where the gay folk address comments only to the other gay folk, where the engineers speak about topics of primary interest only to other engineers? More importantly, do we really want a list in which we babble on about the intimate details of our private lives, details that have nothing whatever to do with language? Someone wrote me (privately, I think) that such conversation is a way of building a sense of community among ADS-Lers. As I see it, ADS-L is a community devoted to the topic of the English language, especially in America. Why we need to stray very far from that topic is not clear to me. ADS-L is not a support group or a place for venting personal frustrations or complaining about the details of our private lives. From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 15:44:14 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:44:14 EDT Subject: Pupicek and other such names Message-ID: In a message dated 7/29/2002 3:32:33 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: << I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly button). >> Is the -ek a genitive ending? so that "Pupicek" would be 'offspring of Pupek'? I had real friends who were named Stepanek, Lofek, Vandreshek, and always assumed that the -ek was like the -son of Swedish names. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 15:52:24 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:52:24 -0400 Subject: Birthday Restaurant; Reuben & Rachel; Swaptions; Butter's Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| Some people might want to know how I'm able to do this business. |o| Stick to business? That's the point I was trying to make! It's a |o| "business" where I don't get paid and seldom get credit or |o| recognized for my |o| work. I am able to do the "business" only because no one loves |o| me, I have no |o| children, both of my parents are dead, I live in a very tiny |o| apartment, and |o| I'm able to work at a government job where I deny people due |o| process of law. Gee, it sucks to be you. Maybe Butter's is right. rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 16:02:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:02:16 EDT Subject: hit DEL key before reading (was "Honey Do") Message-ID: In a message dated 7/28/02 2:35:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Respondents are usually not lawyers. Many > times, for example, they forget to bring the hospital record that would > explain a delay and reduce late penalties. We will ask of Judge Popik's chief clark Just how often it is he must mark up non-theoretical dental and medical Excuses for where one may park In a message dated 7/30/02 11:24:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonButters at AOL.COM writes: > Do we really want an ADS-L where the feminists address remarks > only to the other feminists, where the gay folk address comments only to the > other gay folk, where the engineers speak about topics of primary interest > only to other engineers? That should read "...where the engineers speak about topics that are not even of interest to other engineers?" For example, from URL http://athena.mat.ufrgs.br/~portosil/passa7a.html "Segundo James A. Landau: ...semelhantemente aos documentos etruscos, do Vale do Indo temos apenas fragmentos de textos, o que n?o ? material suficiente para possibilitar a decifragem de sua escrita. ( Consequentemente ), que evid?ncia ter?amos para se poder falar de matem?tica nessa civiliza??o? Pergunta-se: esse texto ? compat?vel com o que foi dito na cronologia acima? " From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Jul 30 16:10:51 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:10:51 -0400 Subject: We didn't start the flame war Message-ID: [...Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land", Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs Invasion....] how about smartasses who goof off around a relevant lingusitics topic? Does that count as inappropriate behavior that belongs off-list? Do we exclude smartasses?? Or only non-clever smartasses?? (Which reminds me of why I didn't bring to the list my questions over the lexicography of 'Asshat', my new favorite fad word [and one that I am actively trying to promote through usage].) BTW - Barry - thanks again! for sending me the 50-lari bill from your trip to Armenia. I haven't checked my account, so I hope you had no problem with the check I sent you for reimbursement. My tattooist has a good sketch of the reverse-side art, and I should be getting the work done fairly soon. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Jul 30 16:07:48 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:07:48 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the point of what Barry is all about. Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material contains. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla research specialty: etymology From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Jul 30 16:29:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:29:34 -0700 Subject: Jinx In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730073336.02467ca0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > It was the "devil" (printer's, and maybe other too), but > > ** IT WASN'T JINKS. ** > > The name "Jinks" never appears again after the line with "nameless > evermore"; as for the "devil" at the door, "IT WASN'T JINKS". > > *** JINKS WAS NOT GIVEN AS THE NAME OF THE "DEVIL" IN THE > POEM! JINKS WAS > SOMEBODY ELSE ENTIRELY! *** Or the protaganist is hallucinating. He talks of how "memory quickly bore us/Back again to days of yore'" and of the printer's devil asking for copy. His use of "devil" is not a reference to Satan appearing, but rather in his mind Jinks has been transformed into an imp who "still is flitting" about and continually asking for more copy. He picks up a cudgel and chases Jinks/devil back to "his office." Still this all a bit tangential to the origin of the modern sense of "jinx." No one has antedated that sense earlier than the 1910-11 baseball usages. What we have here is a character named "Jinks" who is associated with vexing behavior and persistant bad luck (at not finding a story). What the poet was literally describing is not important to the original question, the association is sufficient to indicate that the modern usage of "jinx" may be/is likely (take your pick) from the proper name, used in this poem and other sources. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Tue Jul 30 17:01:50 2002 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:01:50 +0100 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've not seen anyone in this exchange deny that Barry's scholarly work is valuable. What they are questioning is why it has to come with messages that are mostly about personal things or political opinions and such. Those _are_ separate issues. Since the majority of the group manages to treat these kinds of information separately, I don't see why a complaint about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an attack on his scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. Every once in a while, I start reading Barry's postings again, to see what I'm missing, and there's a lot of stuff, but then I'll be faced with gobs of information I just don't find appropriate to the list and I start deleting without reading again. And I have noticed a double standard here--in the past, people with personal rants about political issues have been told that this is not the appropriate forum, and we haven't seen leaps to the defense of their scholarly work. Yes, ADS-L is a community, but we're not, as a group, intimates. Some people within the group may have the sorts of relationships in which one talks about more personal things, but then we do that off-list. If there are particular people whom Barry (or anyone else) is trying to reach with the personal info, then that info should be sent only to those people rather than to all of us. The reason I end up deleting is that I don't like having intimate relationships forced upon me when the interest is not reciprocal. Yes, we have delete keys, but contributors to the list should also have some self-censorship skills, should they not? Lynne --On Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:07 am -0500 Gerald Cohen wrote: > I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I > return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry > Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the > point of what Barry is all about. > Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l > in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been > presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into > polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material > contains. > > Gerald Cohen > University of Missouri-Rolla > research specialty: etymology Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Falmer Brighton BN1 9QH >>From UK: (01273) 678844 fax: (01273) 671320 Outside UK: +44-1273-678844 fax: +44-1273-671320 From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:02:53 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:02:53 -0700 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:07 AM -0500 Gerald Cohen wrote: > I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry > Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the > point of what Barry is all about. > Those messages are very much a side-show I think Ron made quite clear (in the quote below) that he in no way "misses the point of what Barry is all about." He is simply asking that we be spared the side-show. "I mentioned the fact that I personally find little of interest in Mr. Popik's lexicographical postings ONLY as a way of emphasizing that I nonetheless firmly support his posting them. I am told by people I respect that Popik's work is extremely useful to the many lexicographers who participate in ADS-L, and it has always been clear that they are very interesting to many of the subscribers. I occasionally read them myself when the particular word is of interest to me. I am grateful that he generates so much interest in ADS-L and thereby in the study of American English, which is the central purpose of this list. "What I do object to is when he uses the list for irrelevant personal purposes." **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:14:30 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:14:30 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Lynne Murphy wrote: > I don't see why a complaint > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an attack on his > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that make me an insightful entomologist? From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Jul 30 17:29:51 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:29:51 +0200 Subject: Jinx Message-ID: Stevenson's Book of Quotations gives a slightly different text of the song about Captain Jinks: " 'I'm Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines, I often live beyond my means; I sport young ladies in their teens, to cut a swell in the army.' William Lingard, Captain Jinks of the Horse Marines. (1869) Chiefly remembered for Clyde Fitch's play of the same name, in which Ethel Barrymore made her debut at the Garrich Theatre, New York City, 4 Feb., 1901. Sometimes attributed to T. Maclagen." Stevenson also gives this: " 'The frolicsome company had begun to practise the ancient and now forgotten pastime of high jinks.' Scott, Guy Mannering, Ch. 36. High jinks was a game of forfeits, in which one was chosen by lot to perform some ridiculous task." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Jul 30 17:37:12 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:37:12 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: We all know that we're not obliged to join in or even listen to all the various conversations that go on in a large group of people gathered together because of some shared interests. A ListServ offers a place to gather around a particular shared interest, but obviously doesn't require that no one can have any other interests. It has the advantage over a party or convention in that it is possible to attend_ all_ the conversations if one wishes. I like to listen when Popik talks, others may not. So they wander off. What's the problem? A. Murie From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Jul 30 17:41:42 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Jul 30 17:41:32 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:41:32 -0700 Subject: Ellis Island et al. (was: Re: O'Kun) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always wondered whether the spelling of my surname was the result of an Ellis Island clerk's approximation of the name as he (probably) heard it, or whether it might represent a choice my immigrant ancestors to sacrifice the spelling McGrath in an attempt to get people over here to at least approximate its pronunciation in Ireland, [mIgra:]. I hadn't heard about the ships' logs as a possible source for a respelling, but I wonder about it. It seems highly unlikely that anyone in Ireland (even a British steamship line official stationed there), where an emigrant's steamship ticket would have been issued, would misspell a name that's one of the most common in Ireland and is NEVER spelled McGraw there. In any case, would U.S. immigration officials really get the passengers' names from a ship's log? Even if it was before the age of passports, wouldn't emigrants/immigrants have carried official identification "papers" of some sort, and wouldn't immigration officials have taken the names from those? (I haven't seen the research that reached the ship's log conclusion--maybe it somehow ruled this out.) Peter Mc. --On Friday, July 26, 2002 10:20 PM -0500 Donald M Lance wrote: > There's a video out by an Alan Berliner who looked up other people with > that name and had a dinner in New York for 12 of them. He did lots of > research for the project, including interviewing people who actually > worked at Ellis Island. They simply took the names from the ships' logs, > so the changes were made before they got on the boat or after they had > cleared through the Ellis facility. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 18:01:45 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:01:45 -0400 Subject: Pupicek and other such names In-Reply-To: <16d.1154d7a9.2a780e4e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 7/29/2002 3:32:33 PM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes: > > << I had an imaginary friend when I was about 4, named Pupicek (belly > button). >> > > Is the -ek a genitive ending? so that "Pupicek" would be 'offspring of > Pupek'? I had real friends who were named Stepanek, Lofek, Vandreshek, and > always assumed that the -ek was like the -son of Swedish names. ek to -icek or -isek (hacek over the c/s) is an extremely productive diminutive process. rak = crab. racek (my middle name) = little crab. Franta = Frank. Frantisek = Frankie. There are scads of Czech names that are ultimately diminutives. -- Steve From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 18:04:51 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:04:51 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: <5321701.1028052110@perdita.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Yes, ADS-L is a community, but we're not, as a group, intimates. Some > people within the group may have the sorts of relationships in which one > talks about more personal things, but then we do that off-list. If there > are particular people whom Barry (or anyone else) is trying to reach with > the personal info, then that info should be sent only to those people > rather than to all of us. The reason I end up deleting is that I don't > like having intimate relationships forced upon me when the interest is not > reciprocal. I concur with Lynne's entire post; thank you, Lynne, for writing what I wanted to say but couldn't think of how to say it. I think Ron's initial post was reasonable. -- Steve From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Jul 30 18:17:06 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:17:06 +0200 Subject: O'Kun Message-ID: James Smith wrote: >I work with a man named Sjoblum, "sea blossom". There >were too many Johnsons on the boat his ancestors came >over on, so his progenitor was given the name of the >boat. >--- David Bergdahl wrote: >> I've also heard that shipping clerks overseas were >> the ones writing out the >< tickets w/the name changes. I discovered the origin >> of my Swedish last name >> in H. L. Mencken who reports that when Scandanavians >> got last names in the >> early years of the 19th-century there were too many >> Johnsons, Andersons, >> Thomsons &c. based on the patronymic naming >> convention, so the Swedish >> equivalent of the Namenamt decided that people >> should use familar >> geographical terms--Berg, Kvist, Lund, Stro/m, Dahl, >> &c.--which is how we >> got to be "mt-valley" people. The family name "Sj?blom" is very common in Sweden, so it is most unlikely that he would have got the name on his arrival. As for "Sj?blom" being the name of a ship, this is hardly imaginable. Patronymics were the general rule in Sweden up to around 1900. As this meant difficulties for the administration, it was then recommended that people should either keep the patronymic without change or choose a new family name - but till today you can keep the patronymic custom if this is a family tradition. (My great-grandfather's name was Mons Andersson, my grandfather's Ivar Monsson. My father followed the tradition and called himself Robert Ivarsson, but a couple of his sisters kept the name Monsson. If I should want to, I still have the right to change my last name to Robertsson.) There are still a couple of hundred pages in the Stockholm telephone directory with the name "Svensson"... Many have chosen to bear a name with roots in the nature: Berg, Bergstr?m, Bergdal, Berggren, etc. (a custom that started already in the 18th century), but changing the family name is always a decision that you take yourself - the only restriction is that you cannot today take a name that is already used. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From pds at VISI.COM Tue Jul 30 18:14:40 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:14:40 -0500 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the on-line menu of Schumacher's Fine Dining and Hotel of New Prague (rhymes with 'vague') MN http://www.schumachershotel.com/LunchMenu.htm Schumacher's has been serving these at the MN State Fair since God-knows-when. Reuben Sandwich Thinly sliced corned beef, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. Made famous at our Minnesota State Fair Restaurant. Rachel Sandwich Thinly sliced turkey, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on > the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA > Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from > Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the > menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A > REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing > on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand > island dressing on rye bread. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Jul 30 18:34:01 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:34:01 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 06:56 AM 7/30/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > >#"...another Bush who gives great war, but who is slowly undone..." ># >#Mark Whitaker, Newsweek, 29 July 2002 p 4 ># >#I'm familiar with the more lurid gives great head, but I've been noticing >#this construction more and more lately (gives great party, gives good >#meeting, etc.). > >I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I >can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was >(and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly >swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line > "Anna" Head gives great costume. > Obviously not productive, but there it was. > >-- Mark M. Edith Head? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 18:47:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:47:47 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, sagehen wrote: > We all know that we're not obliged to join in or even listen to all the > various conversations that go on in a large group of people gathered > together because of some shared interests. A ListServ offers a place to > gather around a particular shared interest, but obviously doesn't require > that no one can have any other interests. It has the advantage over a > party or convention in that it is possible to attend_ all_ the > conversations if one wishes. I like to listen when Popik talks, others may > not. So they wander off. What's the problem? It is common for a listserv, particularly one that is professional in nature such as this one, to have rules governing participation, sometimes even enforced by kicking people off the list. I no longer have the instructions I got when I joined ADS-L, but I see on the ADS web site that there is a sentence, "Completely inappropriate behavior can get you banned." The problem here is that a particular participant who contributes much of great value to the list also contributes a lot of extraneous material. He seems to have a strong need to include the extraneous material, so complete "self-censorship" is probably not going to happen. Perhaps a compromise could be reached? Could Barry try to exercise restraint in posting extraneous material (probably even those of us who have some compassion for his personal problems and are lawyers are not too interested in the New York City parking ticket system) and could list members who are bothered by the "noise-to-signal ratio" try to have some forbearance if Barry occasionally wanders off-topic? I think Barry has cut down his personal discussions from their peak level. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 19:15:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:15:07 EDT Subject: Ellis Island et al. (was: Re: O'Kun) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 1:41:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > would U.S. immigration officials really get the passengers' names from a ship's > log? Even if it was before the age of passports, wouldn't > emigrants/immigrants have carried official identification "papers" of some > sort, and wouldn't immigration officials have taken the names from those? > (I haven't seen the research that reached the ship's log conclusion--maybe > it somehow ruled this out.) No, they would not use the ship's log. They would use the passenger manifest. Any ship arriving legally at a US port knew that it had to provide the local authorities with a list of all passengers, or at least all passengers intending to debark. Whether or not the passengers carried passports or other "papers" (ID documents), the ship had to provide a manifest which, at the very least, provided a name for every face on board. The US authorities at Ellis Island and other ports could---and did---refuse entry to immigrants for several reasons, of which lack of proper documentation was one. The companies owning the passenger ships were careful to prepare manifests properly, as anyone refused entry to the US had to be carried back to Europe at company expense. First class passengers had their paperwork handled for them by the ship's crew. It was only the non-first-class passengers (which meant virtually all the immigrants) who had to carry their own papers through the Ellis Island bureaucracy. Why so many misspelling on manifests? Many immigrants were illiterate (what was the literacy rate in Ireland when the Potato Famine hit?) or were literate only in Yiddish or Russian, neither of which use the Latin alphabet. While Ellis Island had professional polyglots on its staff, most European shipping offices did not. Bad handwriting, inattention, or ignorance of Irish spelling could easily transform "McGrath" into "McGraw" or vice versa. Not to mention interchanging "McGregor" and "MacGregor". Alternatively, an Irish clerk could easily have mishandled "Okun" and "Kahn". - Jim Landau P.S. In the olden days, the speed of a ship was measured by tossing overboard a piece of wood called a "log" that was tied to a rope with evenly-spaced knots in it. The number of knots that passed over the rail before the special timing sandglass ran out equalled the ship's speed in nautical miles per hour, a rate still called "knots". The number of knots pulled out by the log was then recorded in the ship's "log book". This may sound elementary, but I once encountered a freshman calculus class not one of whose members knew that "knots" was a measure of velocity. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 20:01:57 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:01:57 -0400 Subject: fried karats Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0400 7/29/02, JJJRLandau at aol.com wrote [off-list to me]: >In a message dated 07/29/2002 11:41:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >> >A candy/ice cream store somewhere near 58th and Broadway sells "Denali >moose >> >track" ice cream. A Kosher restaurant at 30th and 5th Avenue sells "fried >> >karats". >> >> seems more appropriate for 47th Street > >I don't catch the reference to 47th Street, which to me means the ticket booths at Duffy Square. ================= In case anyone other than Jim needs or wants the specifics, 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 30 20:44:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:44:49 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020730143336.00bcf9d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:34 PM -0400 7/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >> >>I remember a joke version from x decades ago, or almost remember it: I >>can't recall the first name involved. Say it was Anna. "Anna" Head was >>(and maybe still is) THE premier B'way costume designer and regularly >>swept the awards in that category. Somewhere there was the line >> "Anna" Head gives great costume. >> Obviously not productive, but there it was. >> >>-- Mark M. > >Edith Head? Yes; I've come across (er...) this one-liner on over a dozen occasions. She died a while back (early 1980's?), but I don't recall the Times obit including the line. Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Jul 30 20:47:36 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: Gives Great War In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Anna" Head gives great costume. Edith. I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great phone." Rima From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 20:59:42 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:59:42 EDT Subject: Gives Great War Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 4:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill > Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do > dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great > phone. If it's the same move I'm thinking of (no, I didn't see it), "Silver Streak" was released in the winter of 1985-86. During the first play I ever worked backstage on ("Anything Goes", fall of 1977), the captain of the ship gets handed a note. The note was supposed to be a blank piece of paper, but on the final night it read "Gabriel gives good head." - Jim Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 21:08:24 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:08:24 -0400 Subject: Gives Great War Message-ID: "Silver Streak" was released in 1976. I saw it two or three years later and remember the "gives great phone" double entendre (spoken as Jill Clayburgh and Gene Wilder are seducing each other). This was the earliest example I've seen of "gives great head" being extended to "gives great X." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 5:00 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Gives Great War In a message dated 7/30/02 4:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I remember it from the film "Silver Streak" from the 70's (?) Jill > Clayburgh's character explains that, though she doesn't type or do > dictation, she was hired as a secretary because she gives "great > phone. If it's the same move I'm thinking of (no, I didn't see it), "Silver Streak" was released in the winter of 1985-86. During the first play I ever worked backstage on ("Anything Goes", fall of 1977), the captain of the ship gets handed a note. The note was supposed to be a blank piece of paper, but on the final night it read "Gabriel gives good head." - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 21:06:36 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:06:36 -0400 Subject: "gives good/great X" Message-ID: This seems to come up, as it were, every year or two, so I'll mention again as I've mentioned before that the HDAS has an entry for the phrase "give good/great X" (where "X" is not "head"), with examples back to 1971. Jesse Sheidlower From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Jul 30 21:07:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:07:45 EDT Subject: fried karats Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 4:00:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being > Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all > those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. When we crossed 47th Street we were definitely in the Theater District and did not see any noticeable jewelry businesses. Perhaps the Diamond Merchants are on a different stretch of 47th Street? I was once supposed to meet my family at a particular Kosher restaurant somewhere around 47th Street. No luck finding it. I did the one thing that in my previous experience ALWAYS WORKED---stop at a fire station and ask. "We'd like to help you," the firemen said, "but we're Italian." So I went into a nearby store that obviously believed in Diversity in Hiring and started looking at nametags. The first salesman I saw was African-American. No good. The next was Hispanic. Ditto. I glanced at half a dozen salespeople before I found one whose nametag read "Seltzer." So I asked him and he gave me correct directions without pausing. - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Jul 30 21:09:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:09:48 -0400 Subject: fried karats In-Reply-To: <195.a89a2f0.2a785a21@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 05:07:45PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 7/30/02 4:00:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > 47th Street is (I thought) world- (or at least locally) famous for being > > Diamond Merchants Lane. It's the traditional office place of all > > those mostly Jewish diamond sellers and other jewelry merchants. > > When we crossed 47th Street we were definitely in the Theater District and > did not see any noticeable jewelry businesses. Perhaps the Diamond Merchants > are on a different stretch of 47th Street? The diamond district is roughly between Madison and Sixth Ave.; it doesn't extend into the theater district. Jesse Sheidlower New York, NY From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Tue Jul 30 21:57:04 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:57:04 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research In-Reply-To: <3D46C977.479593A0@missouri.edu> Message-ID: That's the problem with trying to censor input to a group like this. The range of interests, specialty, and expertise are far ranging and catholic. It's pretty arrogant to assume that if a topic is not interesting to oneself that it is not interesting to anyone else either. But to address the complaint directly, a superior field person collects widely and only sorts back at the lab, often with the help of those more capable of judging the significance of a find. Some of us have talent as collectors, others as sorters, and others as cataloguers. Besides, who's to say that the pile of words one sorter discards isn't vitally interesting to another etymologist or, perhaps more importantly, another etymologist in another time? Barry's notation, if the archives of this list somehow survive, may be the only surviving reference in 2245 describing how a Rachael sandwich is actually constructed. rhk |o| |o| > I don't see why a complaint |o| > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an |o| attack on his |o| > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. |o| |o| Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that |o| make me an |o| insightful entomologist? |o| From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Jul 30 23:35:42 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:35:42 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" In-Reply-To: <001401c237f0$5e780d80$5eb89b3f@dbergdah1> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? No, insofar as it deals with the question, "What is appropriate material to post to the list?" That meta-topic is considered appropriate on almost or actually every list and newsgroup that I am or have been on. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Jul 30 23:48:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:48:29 -0400 Subject: Sticking to "business" Message-ID: Although, strictly speaking, this is true, I had much rather read Barry's posts than wade through wrangling about whether a valuable contributor occasionally goes too far with off-topic content. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at THEWORLD.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 7:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Sticking to "business" On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Isn't this whole discussion off-topic? No, insofar as it deals with the question, "What is appropriate material to post to the list?" That meta-topic is considered appropriate on almost or actually every list and newsgroup that I am or have been on. -- Mark A. Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Jul 31 00:08:23 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:08:23 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Fred Shapiro has ably stated the issue of Barry's postings, acknowledging both the value of his work and the desirability of limiting the OT personal information. I'm not at all troubled by hearing who Barry sat next to on his trips, but clearly some ads-l members are. With that said, I'd like to re-emphasize the enormous scholarly value of Barry's work. He has made major contributions to the understanding of "The Big Apple," "hot dog," "dude," "I'm from Missouri, you've got to show me," "Windy City," "rush the growler," "yegg" (safecracker), "jinx" (which I'll comment on in a message tomorrow), "Yankees" (baseball team). My index of Comments on Etymology, contain 75+ items of his that I've published--most of which I've written up based on material he provided. These articles (actually, working papers) concern a range of topics such as "thousand island dressing," "emery ball" (baseball pitch), "crouch start," "crepes suzette," "gift shop," "chiffon pie," "sis-boom-bah," etc. etc. etc. Before Barry started globe-trotting, he spent countless hours in various libraries and historical societies ferreting out all sorts of information. Other than newspaper librarians, there is probably no-one in the U.S. more familiar with obscure publications than he is. In pre-Internet days he sent me piles of material which I am doing my best to work through. With the advent of the Internet, he began sharing his material with ads-l. I'm some twenty years Barry's senior and as an academic would normally be the leader, with Barry carrying out my agenda much as a graduate student would. But in the present case our roles are somewhat reversed. I learn an enormous amount just following Barry's lead and seeing what all he comes up with. His material usually requires polishing, and I'm doing my best to keep pace with him (unsuccessfully). BTW, besides Barry's postings, there is much other valuable ads-l material waiting to be polished and compiled into articles. If anyone is looking for new directions for research on American speech, this is perhaps the most important one. Gerald Cohen co-author with Barry: _Studies in Slang_, vol. 6, (Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang), 1999. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 01:03:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:03:55 EDT Subject: Kosher restaurant (1866, 1867) Message-ID: THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE was published in Cincinnati from 1854. It was first called THE ISRAELITE. The word "kosher" was used early, but mostly in Hebrew. The first use in English (this would be OED's second cite, after 1851) is: 30 March 1855, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 304, col 1 ad: NEW ENGLAND HOUSE, Hartford, Conn. THE UNDERSIGNED RESPECTFULLY calls the attention of his friends and the travelling community at large, to his commodious and well managed hotel, No. 55, Front street, Hartford, Conn. The best accommodations and a first rate _kosher_ table will be found at any time. SIMON SELLING, Proprietor As for the first "kosher restaurant," take your pick with these two: 9 November 1866, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 6, col. 4 ad: M. BERLINGER'S KOSHER BOARDING HOUSE AND RESTAURANT No. 13 Lodge Street between 5th and 6th CINCINNATI, O. Meals at all hours of the Day. 15 February 1867, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 7, col. 3: G. SELIGMAN begs to inform you that he will remove from his present premises, No. 254 Broadway, New York To the BASEMENT No. 20 White Street, Near Church, And open on the 1st of FEBRUARY his well known ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) RESTAURANT Where he will continue to serve dinners (and a cup of coffee) for fifty cents. Breakfast and supper _a la carte_. G. Seligman begs to return thanks for past favors, and solicits a continuance of the same at his new and spacious premises, where he will endeavor to do still better. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 01:49:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:49:11 EDT Subject: Frankfurter, Vienna Sausage, Wienerwurst in THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE Message-ID: THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE was published in Cincinnati from 1854. Cincinnati was then known as the Hog Capital of America, Porkopolis, Pork Town, or what have you. Pork ads wouldn't make the newspaper, but ads for kosher meats are very important. 16 February 1855, THE ISRAELITE, pg. 256, col. 6 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) Smoked Meat, Sausages, &c., &c. LEOPOLD MARKS Butcher and Dealer in SMOKED MEATS, SAUSAGES, &c. 136 George, near Western Row 6 January 1882, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 223, col. 5 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) S. HUTTENBAUER S. W. Cor. Seventh and Walnut Sts., CINCINNATI, O. Wholesale and Retail Dealer in Dried Beef, Pickled Beef. Knoblauch Wurst, Wiener Wurst, Bolognas and Smoked Tongues. (OED has 1889 for "wienerwurst"--ed.) 4 March 1887, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 9, col. 6 ad: L. M. HELLER'S ("Kosher" in Hebrew--ed.) XLCR _Frankfurter Sausages_ AND BOLOGNAS Pickled and Smoked Meats, Tongues, Etc. 300 East 77th St., EAST OF SECOND AVENUE--NEW YORK 8 April 1887, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, Pg. 10, col. 3 ad: ("Kosher" in Hebrew flanks this name--ed.) Nathan Heldman, N. E. Cor. 6th and Smith Sts, CINCINNATI, O. DEALER IN Kosher Meats only. Smoked Beef and Sausage. Pickled Beef, Tongues, Frankfurter Wurst and the "a la Schweinfurt" sausage, put up expressly for family use only. 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 2, cols. 5-6 ad: ESTABLISHED 14 YEARS! _M. ZIMMERMANN_ 318 E. HOUSTON ST., NEW YORK MANUFACTURER, WHOLESALE AND RETAIL DEALER IN CELEBRATED _VIENNA SAUSAGES!_ _CORNED_ _SMOKED_ _BEEF!_ _BEEF!_ (OED has 1958 for "Vienna sausage"??--ed.) 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 3, col. 3 ad: G. GOLDMANN, 314 East Houston Street, NEW YORK. MANUFACTURER OF THE CELEBRATED _FRANKFURTER SAUSAGES AND BOLOGNAS,_ Roasted Beef, Tongues and Corned Beef. 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: ASK FOR THE BEST _PEISER'S_ SMOKED MEATS, BOLOGNAS, & FRANKFORT SAUSAGES. GENUINE ONLY WITH OUR TRADE MARK. Factory 1361 3rd Ave., New York. I also found a good Deli: 13 July 1888, THE AMERICAN ISRAELITE, pg. 10, col. 3: BRANCH DELICATESSE, S. W. CORNER FOURTH AND PLUM STREETS Conducted After the Style and System of _The Delicatesse._ No. 227 Main Street, Lincoln Inn Court. Service Cheaper, Better and Quicker Than Other Lunch Rooms in the City. EVERYTHING HOME-MADE. (See old ADS-L archives for an old "delicatessen," if it's still there--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 02:01:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:01:38 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: The expression "auction block" originally refers to the block on which slaves stood when they were sold. This sense dates back to the mid-nineteenth century, at least. The earliest example I've seen of the figurative sense 'the open market' or some such, as in "MegaCorp is putting their Foobar division on the auction block," is from the 1940s or so. I've never heard any objection to the free use of this phrase, and I'm wondering if I've missed this, or if no one has objected to it. As we know, there are periodic objections to words or expressions of innocent origin--"picnic", "niggardly", "nitty-gritty", "call a spade a spade"--because of their incorrectly assumed racial origins. But here we have something that is genuinely a slave term, but has passed largely unnoticed. Thoughts? Jesse Sheidlower From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jul 31 02:01:12 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:01:12 -0500 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: For the record, I didn't claim that Popik's research wasn't interesting to some, and I certainly wouldn't argue that it isn't valuable, since it's not my field. I was simply quibbling over the label 'insightful' which I think implies more than documenting occurrences of words. Still, I think my comment was inappropriately ad hominem, and I apologize. -----Original Message----- From: Rick H Kennerly [mailto:Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM] Sent: Tue 7/30/2002 4:57 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research That's the problem with trying to censor input to a group like this. The range of interests, specialty, and expertise are far ranging and catholic. It's pretty arrogant to assume that if a topic is not interesting to oneself that it is not interesting to anyone else either. But to address the complaint directly, a superior field person collects widely and only sorts back at the lab, often with the help of those more capable of judging the significance of a find. Some of us have talent as collectors, others as sorters, and others as cataloguers. Besides, who's to say that the pile of words one sorter discards isn't vitally interesting to another etymologist or, perhaps more importantly, another etymologist in another time? Barry's notation, if the archives of this list somehow survive, may be the only surviving reference in 2245 describing how a Rachael sandwich is actually constructed. rhk |o| |o| > I don't see why a complaint |o| > about Barry's personal information in posts is seen as an |o| attack on his |o| > scholarly work. He's clearly an assiduous and insightful etymologist. |o| |o| Really? If I travel the world collecting butterflies, does that |o| make me an |o| insightful entomologist? |o| From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 02:42:23 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:42:23 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: <20020731020138.GA29001@panix.com> Message-ID: LOTS of things have been put on auction blocks over the centuries, certainly not just humans. I think "auction block" is not stigmatized by the fact that humans have sometimes been on the block. Frank Abate From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 31 03:00:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:00:37 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: How much support is there for your premise, that "auction block" refers specifically to slaves? I took a quick look at the cases. The earliest use I saw, from 1865, does indeed give some support to the slave theory: >>A new profession had been created who cheated their victims, stole and kidnapped men and put them on the auction-block and sold them, in shameless defiance of all decency.<< Speer v. Borough of Blairsville School Directors, 50 Pa. 150 (1865). But the next cite, seven years later, implies that the auction block is equally usable for auctioning other types of property: >>The pleadings and adjudications have become records; the stentorian voice of the judge is hushed to the mere scratch of a pen, and the gentlemanly clerk quietly attests the seal of authority which consigns the unfortunate suitor's goods and chattels to the auction block. And so the footprints of progress are discovered even in the chambers of Westminster.<< Gamble v. Jacksonville, P. & M.R. Co., 14 Fla. 226 (1872). And we do see a figurative sense in the third use, from 1881: >>Is it possible that the General Assembly [i.e., the legislature] may put up such [tax] exemptions on the auction block, and knock them down to the highest bidder, or may, on a pretended or fictitious consideration, bind themselves and succeeding legislatures never to resume the power to impose just taxes on the property of the individual or corporate body?<< City of East St. Louis v. East St. Louis Gas Light & Coke Co., 98 Ill. 415 (1881). Note that none of these uses actually are from a slave state at a time when slavery was legal. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" The expression "auction block" originally refers to the block on which slaves stood when they were sold. This sense dates back to the mid-nineteenth century, at least. The earliest example I've seen of the figurative sense 'the open market' or some such, as in "MegaCorp is putting their Foobar division on the auction block," is from the 1940s or so. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 03:08:59 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:08:59 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 11:00:37PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > How much support is there for your premise, that "auction >block" refers specifically to slaves? I took a quick look at >the cases. The earliest use I saw, from 1865, does indeed >give some support to the slave theory: [...] > But the next cite, seven years later, implies that the > auction block is equally usable for auctioning other types > of property: [...] I don't dispute the fact that the phrase has been in use for some time even in a figurative sense, nor that auctions have been around for a very long time, as Frank acknowledges. But my earliest example (which I don't have now, I'm at home) of the _phrase_ "auction block" is several decades earlier than 1865, and it and other examples seem to suggest that the phrase was associated with slavery in a more than random way. I appreciate these earlier figurative examples, but it still seems to me the phrase arose in connection with slavery, and I question why this hasn't incited any objection. I should mention that this was called to my attention by someone who wrote to OED saying, "Is it true that _auction block_ originally refers to slavery?" So there's a sense out there, at least for this one correspondent, that _auction block_ has these connotations--surely this must be the case for others. Jesse Sheidlower From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 03:08:54 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:08:54 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: Barry is a unique individual who reports what he sees, finds, and thinks. Much of this is the reporting of research of immense value; some is not. ADS-L is an open email discussion group. We are all individually who we are. That is as it should be, or even as it must be. If some particular folks have problems with the postings from some certain particular folks, then they can simply skim, delete, or ignore the postings from them. I certainly do this, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Please tolerate or ignore or delete eccentricity. We are each of us given to it from time to time. Oh, and lighten up. Frank Abate From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 03:30:57 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:30:57 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Nominal Egg Message-ID: Just got this from my brother-in-law and thought I'd post it here for comment: >A number of years ago Safire had a nice column in which he posited >that people would say "nominal egg" instead of "an arm and a leg". I >decided to (look)for that article but instead found a number of >people simply using the term. Do you have any information about the >history of the term and whether it was already in use before his >column. > Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 04:31:49 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:31:49 EDT Subject: Schmooze (1884), Schadchen, Trefa Fresser (1885), Mazel, Oi Wai (1886) Message-ID: This is a much earlier dating for "schmooze," which the OED and Merriam-Webster date from 1897. I realize that "schmooze" is completely banned on ADS-L, but am providing the antedate anyway. I'm going through the first 20 years of THE AMERICAN HEBREW, and this will be part of several posts from that periodical. 6 November 1884, THE AMERICAN HEBREW, pg. 206, col. 3: ANTI SHNORRING. (...) If again, it is to benefit the professional _shnorrer_, the less provision we make for him the better. 12 December 1884, pg. 69, col. 2: Mrs. Asher, that is to say, the _schwarze Riveah_, by which title she was more generally known, did up her house-work; stood out in the hall gossiping with neighbors; came in to do some mending; went out for another does of _schmussing_; sat down to a bite for lunch; got up for more gossip, until through the vast building there echoed a wild, demoniacal yell that brought forth from all the doors a mass of womanhood that filled the corridors and choked the stairs, until it reached the howling letter-carrier. who had a letter for Mr. Asher. 20 February 1885, pg. 17, col. 2: Can you ever gaze unawed upon this sad plight of the lone and lorn _schadchen_! (...) How could you with one fell blow strike at the roots of such a hoary, remarkable institution as the mercantile _shiddich_! (OED has 1890 for "schadchen"--ed.) 1 May 1885, pg. 177, col. 1: THERE runs a proverb (Hebrew--ed.) "who changes his place, changes his luck." 15 May 1885, (The edges of the newspaper have been destroyed--page number not available; it's in the "Grand Lodge" story--ed.), col. 2: After the Rabbinical conference at Philadelphia, he denounced his colleagues as _trefa fressers_, he repudiated his own motion made at the conference, he swallowed his own words, and now he denounces the colleagues who would not eat _trefa_ and charges them with the terrific crime of adhering to the "kitchen and stomach" religion. 19 June 1885, pg. 82, col. 1: The report is current that one of our metropolitan synagogues proposes to issue a new eidtion of the _Machsor_, and at once the imagination suggests one more edition to the long list of "Minhags" which already forms the distinguishing feature of American Judaism. (The revised OED has 1880 for "minhag," but then a 60-year gap--ed.) 31 July 1885, pg. 185, col. 3: _Chalitza_, or casting the shoe, is founded on the 25th chapter of Deutoronomy, verses 7, 8 and 9, which provide that in the death of a man, childless, it shall be the duty of a brother, if the husband have one living, to marry the widow, and she must not take any one else until he shall have declined, in the presence of the elders, to assume that obligation. (There is only one "chalitzah" hit in the OED?--ed.) 15 October 1886, pg. 147, col. 1: But whether the reason of this change be ascertained or not, the fact is incontestable, that our coreligionist, on his arrival on board ship, is already manifesting the first signs of American patented "_Hutzpe_" (colloquial, _cheek_). (...)(Col. 2-ed.) His long shining beard, the winds of the ocean used to play with, was reduced to a _minimum_, and of the beautiful _pyous_ (side-locks) nothing, alas, was left but two thin bunches of hair ending in cork-screw points. 22 October 1886, pg. 163, col. 1: "_Mamser tome_," (rascal) said Saloshitz with indignation. (OED has "mamzer" meaning "bastard" from 1562, but the other sense of the term is from 1929?--ed.) 22 October 1886, pg. 163, col. 2: "_Oi wai geschreien un oi wai gerufen / may God have _rachmonus_ (pity) on me!" was the natural exclamation of sorrow that slipped out of his oppressed heart... 24 December 1886, pg. 104, col. 1: They attached a particular importance to the peculair constellation of the stars, called (_Mazel_), and thought that those men who were born under a favorable star were more distinguished by the smile of fortune than others who were not. Thus it came that the word Mazel was adopted as the term for luck or happiness. (...) Nay, on joyful occasions it was, and it is still to-day, a complimentary term to express our wishes in the words _Mazel Tov_, that is: "good luck." (The revised OED has 1898 for "mazel"?--ed.) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 31 13:54:58 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:54:58 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: BP's response to RB's posting promted this reflection, which I hope is of some consolation to him: some (perhaps more than a few?) of us who do lexical research feel underpaid, overworked, and of little value to those in positions of power, and half worry that, after years of toiling away in sedentary solitude, we'll turn into fat old eccentrics. But after all, we're in good company. Remember Samuel Johnson? Joanne From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Jul 31 14:13:36 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:13:36 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <3D47B3F2.29926.461E2BF@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:54:58AM -0400, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > > Remember Samuel Johnson. No. Who was he? Jesse Sheidlower From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Jul 31 14:20:59 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:20:59 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" Message-ID: So what are these earlier examples, Jesse? Looking at the cites in the Making of America database, it appears that most early uses of "auction block" were pejorative uses by abolitionist writers starting in the early 1850s. Of course, it's possible that the MoA database has a pro-abolitionist bias. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM] Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:09 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Potential racism of "auction block" I don't dispute the fact that the phrase has been in use for some time even in a figurative sense, nor that auctions have been around for a very long time, as Frank acknowledges. But my earliest example (which I don't have now, I'm at home) of the _phrase_ "auction block" is several decades earlier than 1865, and it and other examples seem to suggest that the phrase was associated with slavery in a more than random way. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Jul 31 14:45:30 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:45:30 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <20020731141335.GD22920@panix.com> Message-ID: > Remember Samuel Johnson. No. Who was he? Oh, just this fat old kvetch who wrote a dictionary. Joanne From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Jul 31 14:51:08 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:51:08 +0100 Subject: Barry Popik's postings Message-ID: Come on, Jesse, of course you know: Samuel Johnson, who with the Rev. John Elliott wrote in 1800 one of the earliest of US dictionaries: A Selected Pronouncing and Accented Dictionary. By mistake (or so they claimed), they included that fine word 'foutra'. But not, I imagine, in the second edition. Jonathon Green From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 14:57:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: Chalitza In-Reply-To: <96.2a29a24b.2a78c235@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:31 AM -0400 7/31/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >[AMERICAN ISRAELITE] >31 July 1885, pg. 185, col. 3: > _Chalitza_, or casting the shoe, is founded on the 25th chapter of >Deutoronomy, verses 7, 8 and 9, which provide that in the death of a man, >childless, it shall be the duty of a brother, if the husband have one living, >to marry the widow, and she must not take any one else until he shall have >declined, in the presence of the elders, to assume that obligation. Hmm. Doesn't even mention the part where the widow (after pulling off the guy's sandal, and we know all about what *that* means from old Sigmund) gets to spit in the levirate-violating brother-in-law's face and announce "So it shall be done to the man who does not build up his brother's house". Traditionnnnnnn, tradition! larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Jul 31 16:11:11 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:11:11 -0400 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <20020730181441.81FBD7A928@taranis.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: In German but non-Jewish southern Minnesota, it's no wonder the Rachel was changed! Turkey raising is big in that area too--and the restaurant IS famous (I've been there). At 01:14 PM 7/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: > From the on-line menu of Schumacher's Fine Dining and Hotel of New Prague >(rhymes with 'vague') MN >http://www.schumachershotel.com/LunchMenu.htm > >Schumacher's has been serving these at the MN State Fair since >God-knows-when. > >Reuben Sandwich >Thinly sliced corned beef, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand >Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. >Made famous at our Minnesota State Fair Restaurant. > >Rachel Sandwich >Thinly sliced turkey, Swiss cheese, Red Kraut and Thousand >Island dressing served on grilled dark rye bread. > > >Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > >>REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on >>the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA >>Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from >>Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the >>menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A >>REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing >>on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand >>island dressing on rye bread. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 31 16:23:55 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:23:55 -0400 Subject: Barry Popik's postings In-Reply-To: <20020731141335.GD22920@panix.com> Message-ID: |o| > |o| > Remember Samuel Johnson. |o| |o| No. Who was he? |o| Just another guy on this list. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Wed Jul 31 16:29:10 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:29:10 -0400 Subject: Potential racism of "auction block" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| So what are these earlier examples, Jesse? |o| Not Jesse, but I've got: Narrative of the life and adventures of Henry Bibb, an American slave, written by himself. by Henry Bibb w/ intro by Lucius C. Matlack. 1850 "After the men were all sold they then [unclear: ] the women and children. They ordered the first woman to lay down her child and mount the auction block; she refused to give up her little one and clung to it as long as she could, while the cruel lash was applied to her back for disobedience" rhk From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 18:24:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:24:32 EDT Subject: Reuben & Rachel Message-ID: In a message dated 7/30/02 6:39:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > REUBEN & RACHEL--I've done much work on the Reuben sandwich, but little on > the Rachel. It's not as popular, but it should be recorded. It's in the LA > Public Library's online menu collection. The earliest R&R is from > Arbuckle's, 1101 Sophia Street, Fredericksburg, VA, from 1983. Also on the > menu are "Long Island Ice Tea," "Colorado Bulldog," and "Potato Skins." A > REUBEN is corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and thousand island > dressing > on rye bread. A RACHEL is corned beef, cole slaw, Swiss cheese and thousand > island dressing on rye bread. The song "Reuben and Rachel" Reuben, Reuben, I've been thinking What a queer world this would be If the men were all transported Far beyond the Northern Sea! etc. has been around forever---it may be an authentic anonymous folk song, although one Web site (http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/usa/reubenan.htm) says that the melody was written in 1871 by one William Gooch. Even older is the book "Reuben and Rachel: or, Tales of Old Times; a Novel " by Suzanna Rowson, published in 1799. Now MWCD10 gives the etymology of "Reuben [sandwich]" as "prob. fr. Reuben Kulakofsky died 1960 Am. grocer" and dates it 1956. (I have no idea whether the ADS-L archives has anything different.) Conclusion: any restaurant or delicatessen which advertises sandwiches of its own invention is likely to think of inventing a sandwich to be named the "Rachel" after the song to accompany the now-standardized Reuben. However, there is AS YET no standardization of what is meant by a "Rachel", merely whatever the restauranteur (e.g. "Arbuckle") happens to choose to offer. It appears that the indefatigable Judge Popik has managed to produce a definitive etymology for a term which does not yet exist. Other items: I think this was covered on the list a while ago, but whereas "iced tea" has ice in it, should not "ice tea" be frozen solid? I still say that frozen potato skins were available commercially from food wholesalers by 1980. That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very tasty. Cole slaw is crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole slaws use a sauce that is not all that different from Thousand Island dressing, with the result that Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich with cabbage added for crunch. - Jim Landau (who learned to make cole slaw from a World War II-era US Navy recipe that advocated wholesale quantities of black pepper). From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 19:00:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:00:08 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: Just saw (1) in an internet mailing. Neither theory strikes me as particularly plausible or as definitively implausible, but I didn't see a listing at Michael Q's worldwidewords and I'm not sure whom else to trust. Anyone? [I see from other web sites that "jolie roug?re" is another and perhaps more phonologically likely version of the first account..] I've appended in (2) the straightdope.com response to a similar query below, but as you see Cecil's rather agnostic on this one. larry ======================= (1) Why is the skull and crossbones symbol called the jolly roger? "There are many theories but two in particular stand out: 1. The 'Jolly Roger 'is a corruption of the French 'Jolie Rouge'or 'Beautiful Red'- describing the pennant often flown by pirates and buccaneers to inform their enemies that no quarter would be given. The term then adapted itself to any ships crew that would offer no quarter in battle. 2. Bartholomew Roberts, a French buccaneer in the early 1600s flew the skull and cross bones and he himself was often referred to as 'Old Roger', which was yet another name for the devil. Robert's seemingly performed his pirate duties with enthusiasm and enjoyment, thus, the 'Jolly Roger' or, in other words, the Happy Devil." ======================= (2) Dear Cecil: Of course he's jolly because he hasn't any lips, but who was that flayed "Roger" immortalized by the buccaneers on their skull and crossbones? What part of the skeleton are the crossbones taken from? Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by fighter pilots and other military types? --Jeremy L., Baltimore Dear Jeremy: He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What kind of weird coastal humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the witticisms around here to me. Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco. The origins of the term are disputed. According to one theory, the buccaneers who operated around the West Indies in the 1600s used a red flag dipped in blood or paint, whichever could be gotten more conveniently. The French supposedly called this the "joli rouge," which the English, with their traditional disregard for the niceties of pronunciation, corrupted into Jolly Roger. Later the term was applied to the familiar black-flag-cum-bones that began to appear in various forms around 1700. An alternative hypothesis involves certain Asian pirates whose chiefs called held the title Ali Raja, "king of sea." The English naturally thought that THEY were the kings of the sea, and appropriated the term, suitably amended, for their own use. Unfortunately, both these explanations, as one historian puts it, "are so plausible that neither can be accepted as correct," plausibility being pretty much a sure sign of error in the etymology business. Some venture the opinion that Jolly Roger may simply derive from the English word "roger," meaning a wandering vagabond, noting that "Old Roger" was a popular canting term for the devil. The bone of choice for the crossbones, I suppose, would be the femur, or thigh-bone. Dare I ask why you want to know? --CECIL ADAMS From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 31 19:24:49 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: Nominal Egg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have searched through the databases and the ancient card catalogue of columns and can find no reference to or usage of "nominal egg" in Safire's columns. In fact, I can't find a use of "nominal egg" anywhere in the NY Times. Lederer noticed it in his "Jumping to Confusions" chapter of "More Anguished English" [1993] as "Nominal Leg." [Searched WS's columns for "nominal leg", "arm and a leg" and several combos thereof - nothing.] Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 08:30 PM 7/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >Just got this from my brother-in-law and thought I'd post it here for comment: > >>A number of years ago Safire had a nice column in which he posited >>that people would say "nominal egg" instead of "an arm and a leg". I >>decided to (look)for that article but instead found a number of >>people simply using the term. Do you have any information about the >>history of the term and whether it was already in use before his >>column. >Rima From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Jul 31 19:28:41 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:28:41 EDT Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: In a message dated 7/31/02 2:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU quotes: > Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by > fighter pilots and other military types? > > Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco The people Laurence Horn are quoting are wrong here. "Roger" used by a pilot is not specific to the military. Civilian pilots use the same terminology. The delusion that it is military is caused by there being so many more movies about fighter pilots than about airliner pilots or for that matter bomber pilots. >From the Airman's Information Manual, published by the FAA: ROGER---"I have received all of your last transmission." It should not be used to answer a question requring a yes or no answer. WILCO---"I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it." Hence "Roger Wilco" is aerial shorthand for two complete independent clauses: "I have received your message AND I will comply with it." "Roger" is the code word for the letter "R" in the old "Able-Baker-Charlie" alphabet used in World War II (and still occasionally heard today). The "Alfa-Bravo-Charlie" ICAO alphabet which replaced the older one uses "Romeo" for "R", but I've never heard of any pirates flying the Jolly Romeo. "Wilco" is simply a portmanteau of "WILl COmply". - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 31 19:35:16 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:35:16 -0700 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <164.118a69e2.2a798560@aol.com> Message-ID: > > That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very > tasty. Cole slaw is > crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole > slaws use a sauce that is not > all that different from Thousand Island dressing, > with the result that > Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere > corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich > with cabbage added for crunch. > The Rachel is basically the sandwich that I've known as an X special (corned beef special, roast beef special, etc.) and in North Jersey found is called a sloppy joe. And for me it's one of my favorite sandwiches. The cole slaw actually goes well with the other ingredients. Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Jul 31 20:08:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:08:01 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger Message-ID: Larry Horn, quoting Cecil Adams: >He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What kind of weird coastal >humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the witticisms around here >to me. ~~~~~~~~ Why not? Skulls are often referred to as "grinning," precisely because all the teeth are visible. A. Murie From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 31 20:30:59 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hamlet to Yorick's skull: "Not one now, to mock your own grinning?" Ed --- sagehen wrote: > Larry Horn, quoting Cecil Adams: > > >He's jolly because he hasn't got any lips? What > kind of weird coastal > >humor is that supposed to be? Better leave the > witticisms around here > >to me. > ~~~~~~~~ > Why not? Skulls are often referred to as > "grinning," precisely because all > the teeth are visible. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Jul 31 20:30:10 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: Honey do / Honeydew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob Haas asked: >> Didn't Carl Perkins have a song titled "Honey Don't"? << Yes, he did. And it was covered by the Beatles, with Ringo Starr singing, on one of their early albums. I believe he even sat in on the Beatles' studio session for the song. Of course, his "Blue Suede Shoes" was covered by Elvis, who in that case had the bigger hit, by far. Carl was real lucky, and made big money from covers. Frank Abate From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Jul 31 21:29:51 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:29:51 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com Message-ID: You have been sent this message from millerk at nytimes.com as a courtesy of the Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com Swarming, fleshmet and drunk-dialing all in one article. To view the entire article, go to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23395-2002Jul30.html Cell Biology By Joel Garreau At the University of St. Andrews, where he studies art history, the royal hottie Prince William can't even go out for drinks with friends without being tracked electronically by a pack of wired women. "A quite sophisticated text messaging network has sprung up," an "insider" told the Scottish Daily Record. "If William is spotted anywhere in the town then messages are sent out" on his admirers' cell phones. "It starts off quite small. The first messages are then forwarded to more girls and so on. It just has a snowball effect. Informing 100 girls of his movements takes just seconds." At one bar, the prince had to be moved to a safe location when more than 100 "lusty ladies," so alerted, suddenly mobbed the place like cats responding to the sound of a can opener. Chalk up another life changed by "swarming," a behavior that is transforming social, work, military and even political lives worldwide, especially among the young. It is the unintended consequence of people, cell phones in hand, learning that they can coordinate instantly and leaderlessly. "It's the search for peak experience, something that's really going to be special," says Adam Eidinger, a District political organizer. "It happened to me just last week. There was a concert at Fort Reno -- Fugazi." His cell rang. "There's this guy, Bernardo, who's one of the biggest swarmer cell-phone people I know." Came the restless call: " 'Where are you? There are all these people here!' And he wasn't just calling us. He called 25 people. Pretty soon everybody he knew was sitting on the grass, and none of them knew they were going to be there that morning." This is the precise opposite of a 1962-style "American Graffiti" world. Then you had to go to a place -- the strip, the drive-in -- to find out what was going on. Now, you find out what's going on by cell phone, and go to the place where it's happening. Swarming is a classic example of how once-isolated individuals are discovering a new way to organize order out of chaos, without guidance. It reverses the idea that geography, in an Internet age, has become irrelevant -- the whole point is to bring people together in one location for face-to-face contact. Swarming is also leading to such wondrous social developments as "time-softening," "cell dancing," "life skittering," "posse pinging," "drunk dialing," and "smart mobs." Movement Made to Order Howard Rheingold is an apostle of swarming. A colorful character who tastefully paints his black dress shoes with moons, stars, planets and flames, Rheingold has for a generation examined the unintended and imaginative uses of new technology by society. He helped pioneer virtual communities -- a phrase he invented -- before most people had even heard of e-mail or seen a cell phone. This was in such a dim and murky past -- 1988 -- that human relationships created simply by typing into the ether were then seen by pundits as preposterous. This was before "fleshmet" entered the lexicon of the early adopters. As in: "Oh yeah, we know each other real well -- although I don't think we've ever fleshmet." As the Internet and mobile communications merge, as cell phones increasingly become something that a teenager gets with her driver's license, and as they shrink from a tool you carry to a fashion item that you wear, Rheingold sees a profound shift in society. "They amplify human talents for cooperation," he says. This is by no means all fun and games. The gear was used by "some of its earliest adopters to support democracy and by others to coordinate terrorist attacks," says Rheingold, whose forthcoming book is called "Smart Mobs: The Next Social Revolution." Smart mobs are a serious realignment of human affairs, in which leaders may determine an overall goal, but the actual execution is created on the fly by participants at the lowest possible level who are constantly innovating, Rheingold notes. They respond to changing situations without requesting or needing permission. In some cases, even the goal is determined collaboratively and non-hierarchically. It is the warp-speed embodiment of Gandhi's maxim, "There go my people, I must run to catch up with them for I am their leader." The key to the power of mobiles -- including hybrids like two-way pagers, Blackberry e-mailers, personal digital assistants merged with phones, wireless laptops, and phones merged with two-way radios -- is that they liberate people from their desktop telephones and computers, moving the action out to that much larger portion of life that encompasses wherever and whenever humans roam. "My friends call me on my cell even when I'm at home," says one teenager who is a child of divorce, "because they don't know whether I'm at my mom's house or my dad's." It's an always-on world when you can communicate on the street and in the car. Especially as text-messaging -- e-mail on the go piped to your mobile -- increases in popularity, you can see in the States behavior that is already ubiquitous in Europe and Asia. You can message silently in meetings, you can do it while in conversation with somebody else, and you can forward and share connections with others. And you can do it much faster than you ever could before, by text or voice. Former Philippine president Joseph Estrada, accused of massive corruption, was driven out of power two years ago by smart mobs who swarmed to demonstrations, alerted by their cell phones, gathering in no time. "It's like pizza delivery," Alex Magno, a political science professor at the University of the Philippines, told The Post at the time. "You can get a rally in 30 minutes -- delivered to you." Cell phones drove political change in that upheaval the way fax machines enabled Tiananmen Square, cassette recordings fired the Iranian revolution, photocopiers fueled the Polish Solidarity uprising and short-wave radios aided the French Resistance. The difference was the amazing speed with which people could swarm. It created not only a new kind of protest, but a new kind of protester. "It's a great way to get people who are in offices involved," Christina Bautisto, who works in Manila's financial district, said of her fellow professionals. "They don't have to spend all day protesting. They just get a message telling them when it's starting, and then they take the elevator down to the street. They can be seen, scream a little and then go back to work." In Washington, mobile-mediated swarms are regular highlights of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund protests. "I don't want to give away all our tricks," says Eidinger, the political activist. "But wireless plays a huge role." That includes everything from little "Family Pack" communicators from Radio Shack on up to sophisticated channel-skipping radios that are not easily monitored, all of which are used by "flying squads" to respond quickly to unanticipated opportunities. Cell phones are in constant use by lawyers seeking court orders designed to complicate the lives of the authorities as the protest is still evolving. Swarming is also the hallmark of the Critical Mass smart mobs on bicycles that clog Washington streets the first Friday of most months, protesting the effects of the automobile. "The people up front and the people in back are in constant communication, by cell phone and walkie-talkies and hand signals," says Eidinger. "Everything is played by ear. On the fly, we can change the direction of the swarm -- 230 people, a giant bike mass. That's why the police have very little control. They have no idea where the group is going." The U.S. military has been one of the earliest institutions to both fear and see the possibilities in swarming. John Arquilla co-authored "Swarming and the Future of Conflict" two years ago for the think tank Rand Corp. and the Office of the Secretary of Defense. He sees swarming -- "a deliberately structured, coordinated, strategic way to strike from all directions" -- as spearheading a revolution in military affairs. "The military has much to learn from Critical Mass," he writes in an e-mail. "I used to go up to San Francisco regularly to see this leaderless swarm of bicyclists bring traffic to a complete halt for two hours. Once I asked a police sergeant, as he stood observing by the Ferry Building, what he was going to do about this. He shrugged his shoulders and asked back, 'What would you have me do?' " "In future campaigns," Arquilla says, leaders might benefit by simply "drawing up a list of targets, fixed and mobile, and attaching point values to them. Then units in the field, in the air and at sea could simply pick whatever hadn't yet been taken. The commander would review periodic progress, adjust point values if needed from time to time, and basically stay the hell out of the way of the swarm." Despite the sober implications, social swarms are easily the most common and intriguing for most people. "Cities are important places for young people who want to meet other people of the appropriate gender for purposes of mating," Rheingold says. "But also, they're developing their social networks. In Tokyo, they flock to fast-food joints. In Stockholm, it might be a hotel with a really nice bar." Social swarming involves sharing your life with others in real time. It means pulsing to the rhythm of life with one's posse. It means a nonstop emotional connection to one's swarm. Swarming to Gazuza It's Saturday night and -- between the art show openings of twilight and the after-hours clubs near dawn -- the tribe that swarms touches down at Gazuza. Single, in their twenties and thirties, and wired, the members of this Washington swarm are briefly landing at this stylish Dupont Circle club as they hear that at this instant, the action is here. Bill Luza, 35, an architectural designer dressed all in white, is old enough to regale the crowd with tales of days so ancient that his first cell phone was the size of a French bread loaf. It came with its own shoulder bag. Yet he recalls how vindicated he felt when his fuel pump gave out between Alexandria and Woodbridge and he became one of the first people in the region to use this new gadget to rescue himself. Anna Boyarsky and Corinne Fralick, both 21, who are interning at the National Geographic and the Center for Policy Research on Women and Families, respectively, casually mention that there are no land lines into their group house any more. Why bother? To be young is to be cognitively welded to a mobile, right? "You always want it near you," somebody says. "You take the phone out of your purse and leave your purse behind. You take your phone even when you don't take your purse or your keys. It's like a little person." Luza raises his head from a call. "That one was from Argentina," he casually remarks. The swarmers laugh at themselves and the role swarming plays in their lives. "Cell dancing" comes up. This is the choreographed behavior in which two people who are vaguely in the same area but can't find each other get on the phone. "It's a locator service," says Boyarsky. "My younger brother was in town. We were going to meet up for lunch. 'I'm at M and something,' he said." She had him start walking down the street, calling out landmarks. Suddenly, she crowed, " 'I see you, I'm at the other corner.' " "Drunk dialing" brings blushes of recognition. Oh, yes. "Saying things that you shouldn't be saying because the cell phone's in your pocket and you're drunk," someone acknowledges, knowingly. "If you've got the phone in your hand, it's such a temptation." "Stupid things," says Angie Hacker, an intern with the U.S. Public Interest Research Group. "My best friend at home, she broke up with this guy she went out with for two years. She calls him and like, 'I know you're not over me. I know you feel that way. You're just going out with that other girl because she's around.' And then she hung up." "Ohhhhhh. I have a friend," says Fralick. "Every weekend, 1 o'clock in the morning, she calls me. She's totally trashed, and in California -- three-hour time difference -- to tell me how much she loves me, how much fun she's having, how much fun I'm having. Talking about everything. 'The boy I kissed earlier.' No point to the conversation. The cell phone companies must love it. People are just so drunk it's like, oh, I'll just call everybody I know." But more seriously, everyone acknowledges that being constantly in touch with the rest of the swarm is changing their sense of time, place, obligations and presence -- indeed, their lives. At Gazuza, two women say they found their current apartment and roommates through the swarm. At a Dave Matthews Band concert at MCI Center recently, some fans shared the music with distant friends by holding up their cell phones, the way an earlier generation might have raised glowing cigarette lighters. The very fabric of their time has softened. Remember arranging to meet at a specific time, like 8 p.m., at a specific location, like Connecticut and K? Forget it. The new hallmark of squishy lives involves vaguely agreeing to meet after work, and then working out the details on the fly. A time-softened meeting starts with a call that says, "I'm 15 minutes away." It's no longer unforgivable to be late, as long as you're in contact. "If you didn't have the cell phone, you'd make more of an effort to be on time," says Kaine Kornegay, 21, an intern in the Senate. "It's more socially acceptable to be late," he says, "because you've given notice that you would be." "With that, the problem is resolved because the information was transmitted, although not his physical body," chimes in Ky Nguyen, 30, a Laurel freelance writer. "There's a level of service agreement," he says. You expect people with cell phones to be available all the time. If they don't call back quickly, that's interpreted as a snub, and it causes anger. It would not be the same calling a land line because you might be out, so taking a day to get back could seem perfectly reasonable. "You get mad at each other when those expectations vary from actuality," says Nguyen. "Sometimes it's because of a failure to perform on the part of a person. But at others, it's just a failure to communicate the level of expectation that one person is expected to provide versus what another person expects to receive." The expectations for connectedness can be astonishingly high. In an earlier conversation, Shirleece Roberts, 21, a senior at Rutgers who likes to use text messaging, had said of her swarm, "Everything is based around the cell phone. Where we're going to meet. Where we're going. Whether we're lost. Where we're at. How to get there. Everything." Roberts is constantly pinging her posse. "When I get off work, going to the gym, I tell them -- meet me there. If I'm going to the store or to the movies or out to eat, I'll tell them. If we're at parties or clubs, and get split up, we'll send a message that says 'Meet me outside.' You talk to all your friends, all day, every day. Before you come to work, when you get off work, during work, before going to bed. See what we're doing. Going to sleep or going out." The last thing Roberts does at the end of the day is send a text message that says, "Good night." There can be a dark side to all this. Swarmers can have difficulty living in the present. They run the risk of never really connecting with the person physically in front of them. They're always wondering if there isn't somebody better they should be talking to at the next place. How's the party? Is it any good? This sucks. Should we move on? Is there any food? Are the girls prettier where you are? In an e-mail, Theresa Ward of McLean admits that she now waits until the last minute to make social commitments, responding to the best offer. "One example, embarrassing but true -- I was supposed to go to my friend's graduation party and when I found out about a dollar draft special, at the last minute I ditched my plans and met other people," she writes. Call it just-in-time partying. Swarmers run the risk of skittering like water bugs on the surface of life. By being quickly and constantly connected, they can avoid deep contact in a time-consuming and meaningful way. "It gives you more opportunities, but it takes you out of the now," says Michael Reed, 34, an entertainment producer. "If I've shown up and not found the love of my life, not had a love-at-first-sight experience," at one location, "then I have the opportunity to find out if there are other events going on where that might happen," says Bernardo Issel, a writer. "It distracts you from real life that you're engaged in," says Issel. "You're flitting from one place to another. You're more likely to pursue superficial engagements rather than deep pursuits. "It contributes to this certain MTV approach to life where you engage in something for a few minutes and then there's a commercial." The end result is that swarmers do indeed end up with "a more abrupt attention span," says Boyarsky. "But you have to have a grip on reality to feel it. Unless you know what is real -- what is a real friendship and relationship -- neither can have an effect on you. If you know what is real, then you know that the cell phone is not a real relationship. It's a connection, but not a person. It allows you to connect to other people, but it's not them, and not you. "It's a sign of commitment, when you turn off the phone," Boyarsky says. "When somebody turns off their cell phone for you, it's true love." Staff researcher Mary Lou White contributed to this report. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 21:39:34 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:39:34 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. > > How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? The context matches up with the definition in OED, although obviously not matching up with the specific subdefinition referring to the Soviet Union. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:03:43 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:03:43 -0400 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: <167.118c021c.2a799469@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:28 PM -0400 7/31/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 7/31/02 2:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU quotes: > >> Is he any relation to the "Roger" who is continually being evoked by >> fighter pilots and other military types? >> >> Jolly Roger bears no relation to Roger Wilco > >The people Laurence Horn are quoting are wrong here. > >"Roger" used by a pilot is not specific to the military. Civilian pilots use >the same terminology. The delusion that it is military is caused by there >being so many more movies about fighter pilots than about airliner pilots or >for that matter bomber pilots. > Hah. Caught the usually reliable Cecil Adams in a blooper (echoing his correspondent, but he's the one who gets paid to know better, and he usually does). Actually, the correspondent didn't SAY "Roger" for affirmatives was limited to "military types", so the statement in his relative clause may well be true. The move from "Roger" to "Roger Wilco" is CA's, and from what Jim says clearly misguided. I'm still curious about "Jolly Roger", though... L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:10:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:10:02 -0400 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: <20020731193516.35758.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:35 PM -0700 7/31/02, Ed Keer wrote: >[Jim Landau wrote] > > That "Rachel" from Arbuckle's does not sound very >> tasty. Cole slaw is >> crunchy, which sauerkraut is not, but most cole >> slaws use a sauce that is not >> all that different from Thousand Island dressing, >> with the result that >> Arbuckle's appears to be selling a mere >> corned-beef-and-Swiss-cheese sandwich >> with cabbage added for crunch. >> > >The Rachel is basically the sandwich that I've known >as an X special (corned beef special, roast beef >special, etc.) and in North Jersey found is called a >sloppy joe. And for me it's one of my favorite >sandwiches. The cole slaw actually goes well with the >other ingredients. > >Ed > I'd agree with Jim if my experience with cole slaw bore out his claim as to the composition of its dressing. I've been eating cole slaw off and on for half a century and I can never recall one of the main ingredients in Thousand Island dressing, viz. ketchup, being part of the dressing. Most versions have combinations of mayonnaise and vinegar, with (hopefully not too much) sugar to offset the vinegar, maybe mustard, and so on. If Thousand Island dressing intervened, cole slaw would be pink instead of white, and I wouldn't want it on my sandwiches either. Or are there relevant idiocrunches for cole slaw and/or Thousand Island dressing that I need to know about? larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:26:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:26:26 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "Cold War" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:39 PM -0400 7/31/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> #1938 _Nation_ 26 Mar. 345 (heading) Hitler's Cold War. >> >> How does the sense compare with that of the other cites? > >The context matches up with the definition in OED, although obviously not >matching up with the specific subdefinition referring to the Soviet Union. > >Fred Shapiro > That would, of course, still distinguish it from "The Cold War" used as a name [what Strawson called a description that has grown capital letters, like the Church of England], as it's been since...the Orwell quote? Actually, looking at the OED, I can't be sure. The context is 1945 'G. ORWELL' in Tribune 19 Oct. 8/1 A State which was..in a permanent state of 'cold war' with its neighbours. and there's no way to know without looking at that issue of the Tribune to know his referential intention. The very next cite, which also predates Walter Lippmann, is quite clear: 1946 Observer 10 Mar. 4/3 After the Moscow Conference last December,..Russia began to make a 'cold war' on Britain and the British Empire. I would still (following the trajectory model of W. A. Read) give a lot of credit to the 1947 Lippmann Times column, which was actually called "The Cold War" and generalized it to the Russian bear vs. the "free world", rather than just ("just, the man says--for shame!") the British Empire. On a related topic, it's interesting to find this at the OED entry for "iron curtain", 26 years before the famous Churchill statement: 1920 MRS. P. SNOWDEN Through Bolshevik Russia ii. 32 We were behind the 'iron curtain' at last! Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Jul 31 22:25:37 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:25:37 -0700 Subject: Jolly Roger In-Reply-To: <167.118c021c.2a799469@aol.com> Message-ID: > From the Airman's Information Manual, published by the FAA: > > ROGER---"I have received all of your last transmission." It > should not be used to answer a question requring a yes or no > answer. > > WILCO---"I have received your message, understand it, and > will comply with it." > > Hence "Roger Wilco" is aerial shorthand for two complete > independent clauses: "I have received your message AND I > will comply with it." Military usage is slightly different. "Roger Wilco" should never be used as a phrase. It is either "roger" or "wilco," never both. >From FM 24-9, "Radio Operator's Handbook," Dept. of the Army, May 1991: "ROGER: I have received your last transmission satisfactorily." "WILCO: I have received your signal, understand it, and will comply. (To be used only by the addressee. Since the meaning of ROGER is included in that of WILCO, the two prowords are never used together.)" The same goes with "over and out." It is either "over" or "out," never both. > "Roger" is the code word for the letter "R" in the old > "Able-Baker-Charlie" alphabet used in World War II (and > still occasionally heard today). The "Alfa-Bravo-Charlie" > ICAO alphabet which replaced the older one uses "Romeo" > for "R", but I've never heard of any pirates flying the > Jolly Romeo. Military types refer to it as the NATO alphabet, not ICAO. It's the same thing, just two different international organizations promulgating it. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Jul 31 22:37:34 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: Reuben & Rachel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I checked Recipesource.com for various cole slaw recipes and found 84, only one of which included ketchup/catsup (Cajun coleslaw--a Justin Wilson recipe which also has Worchestershire sauce, Louisiana hot sauce, onions and green bell peppers) and none that included chopped pickle or pickle relish. There are a number that omit the mayonnaise dressing in favor of various vinaigrettes. I'm not sure I'd care much for coleslaw on corned-beef, but it's delicious on a pulled-pork sandwich, at least in my opinion. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > I'd agree with Jim if my experience with cole slaw bore out his claim > as to the composition of its dressing. I've been eating cole slaw > off and on for half a century and I can never recall one of the main > ingredients in Thousand Island dressing, viz. ketchup, being part of > the dressing. Most versions have combinations of mayonnaise and > vinegar, with (hopefully not too much) sugar to offset the vinegar, > maybe mustard, and so on. If Thousand Island dressing intervened, > cole slaw would be pink instead of white, and I wouldn't want it on > my sandwiches either. Or are there relevant idiocrunches for cole > slaw and/or Thousand Island dressing that I need to know about? > > larry > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Jul 31 23:00:33 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:00:33 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com In-Reply-To: <7395986.1028150992658.JavaMail.wlogic@sane7> Message-ID: "Flash crowd". The term was coined AFAIK by the sf author Larry Niven in a short story, whose title I don't remember but other fen* certainly will. It's set in a near future (a few centuries or less) in which cheap, reliable teleportation has supplanted all other means of transportation. Example: a tv (or equivalent) newscaster says "I'm at Xxx Beach and the sunset is simply stunning!" People step into their home teleport booths and transport themselves to the public booths nearest the beach. In minutes there's a crowd of thousands or myriads. This is today's version. We now have flash crowds. * a plural of "fan" -- Mark A. Mandel From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Jul 31 23:11:17 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:11:17 -0400 Subject: A washingtonpost.com article from: millerk@nytimes.com Message-ID: > "Flash crowd". The term was coined AFAIK by the sf author Larry Niven in > a short story, whose title I don't remember The story is called "Flash Crowd." It's part of a collection called "The Flight of the Horse." Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Jul 31 14:13:30 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:13:30 -0400 Subject: Scholarly importance of Barry Popik's research Message-ID: Gerry and everyone else following this thread: Many people find some of what Barry is posting as IRRELEVANT. I for one would have a much harder time researching "food words" were it not for his USEFUL RESEARCH. Thank you very much for the research, Barry, and as for the other: perhaps the most important addition to the qwerty keyboard has been the "delete" key. Thank you to whom ever we are indebted for it. I don't follow his personal comments very often. Barry, you will be receiving credit for your valuable research in my next book! Please send flames or embers to my personal e-mail address, not the list. Regards, David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com gcohen at UMR.EDU,Net writes: > I'll be away from my computer for most of the day. But when I >return I'd like to clarify the enormous scholarly importance of Barry >Popik's work. To zero in on his off-topic messages is to miss the >point of what Barry is all about. >Those messages are very much a side-show; the real challenge to ads-l >in regard to Barry is to take the extensive raw material he has been >presenting to us, select the valuable parts, develop them into >polished articles, and follow up on all the leads his material >contains. > >Gerald Cohen >University of Missouri-Rolla >research specialty: etymology >