From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 00:07:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:07:11 EST Subject: Historical newspapers online Message-ID: TRICK OR TREAT--The October 1941 SATURDAY EVENING POST "trick or treat" was discussed here (by me) a long time ago. I work very hard so no one can read these things. I don't think the 1937 citation is legit, but I'll check it on Saturday. I reported the custom in New York in the 1930s, but it was not called "trick or treat." HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--The Brooklyn Public Library will make the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE available on their web site sometime next year. This will help on Coney Island stuff, from "hot dog" to "close, but no cigar." Maybe it'll have a "hero" sandwich at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. The attached is from ProQuest. The good news is that the WASHINGTON POST is now available, and the LOS ANGELES TIMES and CHICAGO TRIBUNE will soon be available. So we'll check on "Caesar Salad" and "Chicago deep-dish pizza" and "Windy City" by next year, although the Tribune will still get it wrong. The bad news is that the NEW ORLEANS TIMES-PICAYUNE and the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE won't be available by next year. The T-P would have helped my research into New Orleans foods enormously. The CHRONICLE would have had "cioppino" and "hoodlum" and "jazz." Oh well, there's also the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR. --Barry Popik Subj: RE: Historical newspapers Date: 10/31/2002 5:13:17 PM Eastern Standard Time From: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com To: Bapopik at aol.com CC: howard.merkel at il.proquest.com, michelle.harper at il.proquest.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Hello, Barry, Glad to see you like Historical Newspapers! And that you're interested in regional newspapers as well. Currently we are focusing on developing the digital versions of the key national newspapers's back files. We've just released the Washington Post in addition to the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. In November, we'll release the Christian Science Monitor. In 2003, we're working on the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune. For other regional papers, we're in negotiations with publishers now and will continue to be in the next several years. In essence, it will probably be 2004 before we launch the more regional papers. That's about as much as we can tell you at this time. Hope this information is helpful and thanks again for your comments and inquiry. Best regards, Chris Chris Cowan Vice President, Historical Newspapers ProQuest Information and Learning 300 N. Zeeb Rd. Ann Arbor, MI 48103 ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204 email: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 1 00:31:11 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: Historical newspapers online In-Reply-To: <1ab.b4316a8.2af31faf@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The attached is from ProQuest. The good news is that the WASHINGTON POST > is now available, and the LOS ANGELES TIMES and CHICAGO TRIBUNE will soon be > available. So we'll check on "Caesar Salad" and "Chicago deep-dish pizza" > and "Windy City" by next year, although the Tribune will still get it wrong. > The bad news is that the NEW ORLEANS TIMES-PICAYUNE and the SAN FRANCISCO > CHRONICLE won't be available by next year. The T-P would have helped my > research into New Orleans foods enormously. The CHRONICLE would have had > "cioppino" and "hoodlum" and "jazz." Oh well, there's also the CHRISTIAN > SCIENCE MONITOR. Actually, the bad news is that the pricing of ProQuest Historical Newspapers is quite high and the libraries that Barry and I frequent may not subscribe to anything other than the New York Times. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 01:09:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:09:11 EST Subject: Hash House Slang (1888) Message-ID: The NEW YORK HERALD has an index, but it's not complete nad not very good. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing....The bottom part of this copy has been torn, and words are missing. From the NEW YORK HERALD, 1 April 1888, pg. 9, col. 6: _VERY DEOMCRATIC HASH._ _A Feast Fir for the Gods for_ _Twenty-five Cents._ _AND LUNCH FOR A NICKEL_ _Scenes in a Restaurant Where a Curious_ _Volapuk Is Spoken_ (...) Or they can get a cup of coffee and some cakes for ten cents. The facetious patrons of the restaurant call these cakes "sinkers," because if they were thrown overboard they wouldn't float. (...) _A VOLAPUK DIALECT._ While the HERALD reporter sat in this restaurant the other day he remarked that the customers did not, as a rule, speak the ENglish language. They had a dialect of their own, not very different from trhe volapuk that has become such a fad in certain very high circles. A young man with a very "tough" air threw himself in the chair as the oppsoite side of the table at which the reporter was sitting, and when the waiter sidled up to him said, with a drawl:-- "Cup o' cough an' three off!" The reporter wondered what he meant, but soon found out when he heard the waiter call to one of the cooks:'' "A cup of coffee and three cakes off the griddle." Another young man called for "ham an':" this meant ham and beans. "Beef an'" meant corned beef and beans. When a very hard looking man said he wanted "boot leg and chuck" the reporter expected to... (Copy breaks up here--ed.) the waiter knock him down, but he didn't. ...turned on his heel and returned in about two-minutes with a cup of coffee and a hunk of bread. Another young man sat at the table behind the reporter, and when the waiter asked, "What...order?" he replied very laconically, "Eh...chicken." "Two fried eggs turned over!" cried the waiter to the cook. During his stay in the restaurant the reporter learned several things he never knew...sides the above the following:-- That "pluck" meant beef stew. That "cough in the dark" meant coffee...(Without?--ed.) milk. That "sleeve buttons" meant fish cakes. That "pig iron" meant fried sausages. That "quail" meant chicken stew. That "heavy weights" and "sinkers" meant... (Cakes? Doughnuts?--ed.) That "hot water" meant tea. That "Stars and Stripes" meant pork and... (Beans?--ed.) That "dyspepsia in a snow storm" meant ...pie with powdered sugar. That "Murphy with his coat off" meant...(Potatoes?--ed.) peeled. That "old friend and shamrock" meant (Corned?--ed.) beef and cabbage. That "pallbearers" meant crackers. That "a tenement house in Greenwich Village" meant a plate of soup with plenty of greens in it. And that "mystery" meant hash. (The RHHDAS has 1877-1878 on "mystery." It was found by me and posted here six years ago--ed.) From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Nov 1 02:01:31 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:01:31 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 1 02:36:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:36:13 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021031173521.02610210@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0500 10/31/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" (I pictured it as "Devils' >Night" then) was a children's institution, a time for pranks or tricks, an >extension of Halloween (Oct. 31 evening was expended in foraging for >treats, so the tricks had to have a different night). Some of the tricks of >course were childishly cruel or dangerous... Funny you should mention the two analyses. I first entered it as "Devils' Night" in my reply to the query this morning, thinking that each of the perpetrators (not being a Detroiter, I hadn't known about the more innocent origins of the night of mayhem and arson later widely reported) was a devil, and then deciding that the whole night belonged to the Devil. larry From pds at VISI.COM Fri Nov 1 03:40:00 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:40:00 -0600 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031.210519.-208467.12.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Was there sacred music in the Waring editions? I remember anthems from church choir in the '60s that had pronunciation notations below the lyrics (and I mean English lyrics). Seems to me that they came from one or another of the directors of the St Olaf College Choir. More to the point, and this is really stretching my memory, I seem to recall that these pronunciations involved systematic vowel shifts -- perhaps lowering of front vowels, at least the higher ones. 30 or more people all singing "eeee" can sound pretty awful. Unfortunately, at the time I didn't know a front vowel from a hole in the ground. Anyway, there must be some choristers on this list. If not, I'll ask my daughter, the soprano. If there's a name for the practice, I don't know it. At 09:01 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > >> when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop >> consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically >> a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >Not directly on point, but related. > >Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy >Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for >choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular >lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Nov 1 03:37:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:37:52 -0600 Subject: Canoodle--bibliographic reference Message-ID: First, many thanx for the answers about the back of a one-dollar bill. Next, there have recently been a few ads-l messages about "canoodle." For anyone interested, here's a bibliographical reference: Gerald Cohen, with material primarily from e-mail messages of SAMUEL JONES and JIM RADER: "Possible German Origin of Slang _Canoodle_ 'kiss, hug, fondle." in: _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 28, no. 3, Dec. 1998, pp.2-6. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 03:58:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:58:15 -0500 Subject: Continental Breakfast (1896) Message-ID: From HARPER'S WEEKLY, 18 January 1896, pg. 66, and reprinted in the NEW YORK POST, 18 January 1896, pg. 20, col. 6: _BREAKFAST IN THE OLD DAYS_ In the old days a hungry man could get more things to eat at a New England breakfast-table than are to-day served at many a banquet. Hungry men have declined in numbers and influence, and European travel has had a depleting effect upon that fine old institution--breakfast. No one but the "Autocrat" ever talked much at that meal, forthe viands were too tempting--great beef steaks, hot rolls, buckwheat cakes, omelets, potatoes, coffee, and even, at Mr. Emerson's, pie. Then returned travellers began to bring back tales of the refined Continental breakfast of coffee and a roll. It was even narrated that an Italian gentleman thought that he had eaten a very hearty breakfast when he had put cream in his coffee. So pie was first banished, and the other heavy articles gradually followed it into exile, and breakfast is shorn of its glories. Those who aim at a restoration of the vigor of the Puritans should being by restoring "pie" to its former high estate, and the "Continental breakfast" should be banished from a hemisphere where the Monroe doctrine and the pie should reign supreme. (But keep the "croissants" on the table--ed.) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 1 06:47:11 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 Subject: FW: dialect change? Message-ID: What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. Frank Abate On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 06:58:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:58:24 EST Subject: Mou Gou Guy Pan (1902); Pepper Steak (1903); Dim Sum (1908) Message-ID: Here are a few Chinese restaurant articles I got today, using the NEW YORK HERALD index. Sometimes the index cites other newspapers (here, the WORLD). 26 July 1896, NEW YORK HERALD, fourth section, pg. 14, col. 3: _CHINESE VIANDS_ _FOR AMERICANS._ _Shrewd Celestials Have Built Res-_ _taurants Especially to Catch the_ _Trade of Bohemian New Yorkers._ (...) The original Chinese restaurant down in Mott and Pell streets was generally a dreary little hole in the wall, redolent of stale odors. 14 December 1902, NEW YORK HERALD, fifth section, pg. 11, col. 1: _CHINESE CUISINE A CHRISTMAS DINNER ODDITY_ _REMARKABLE POPULARITY OF THE ORIENTAL RESTAURANT FAD IN NEW YORK_ (..) (Col. 3--ed.) The bill of fare is in ENglish and explanations of Chinese dishes follow the foreign name. For instance, we find that "guy fou yong dun" is simply chicken omelet. "Mou gou guy pan" loses its mystery as boneless chicken with white mushrooms, and "chow sang ha" is more tempting as fried live lobsters; while "you jor bock gob" doesn't appear quite so formidable as fried squab. If you want any birds' nest--"yin wor"--of sharks' fins--"goy chee"--it is necessary to order the day before. Also, if you have a dinner party of considerable size and want Chinese music with your "chop sooy" and "goy chee" due notice must be given the manager. (...)(Pg. 12--ed.) The Tenderloin contains half a dozen of them. They are familiarly known to the habitues of that lively neighborhood as "chop suey houses." At one resort in Twenty-seventh street it is spelled "soui." In Chinatown it is "sooy." But the famous Chinese dish of that name tastes the same in whatever orthography. (...) The prices range from seventy-five cents for "chow main" to fifteen cents for "yet go main." 22 March 1903, THE WORLD, metropolitan section, pg. 4: _Three o'Clock in the Morning at a Chinese Restaurant Uptown._ (...) (Col. 4--ed.) The bill of fare is not very extensive. Its items are: Cents Chop suey.............................................25 Chop suey, with mushrooms...................35 Chicken chop suey.................................50 Yei go main............................................20 Chaw main.............................................75 Pepper steak.........................................25 (...) (Col.5--ed.) Chaw main, which costs 75 cents, is chicken chop suey, served on a bed of crisp vermicella that has been first steamed and then fried--all in the iron bowl. If Saratoga chips could be fixed in strings it would be just about the same as the chaw main foundation. Yet go main is simply noodle soup with a hard boiled egg in it. All these stews are enriched with stock from the pot of simmering chickens. Pepper steak is simply chopped beefsteak cooked with chopped-up green peppers, a little onion and celery. It's darn good. 22 March 1908, NEW YORK HERLAD, second section, pg. 6: _MANDARIN GARDEN DEDICATED TO HIGH TEA._ _Chinatown Hails New Restaurant, Elborately Fitted--Imperial Standards Rule Cuisine, and Leong Gamm, Lord of Cooks, Directs the Kitchen._ (...) (Col. 3--ed.) With the beverage are served such delicacies as dim sum, which is a second cousin to steamed sponge cake, and ha kow, a soulful dumpling modelled about an armature of water chestnuts. (...) Ye sang, which consists largely of boneless fish and rice, is held in high regard. Op tup, an essence of duck and rice, is a favorite. For dinner there are such culinary delights ar pun lung dan. Dan means eggs, and the dish is therefore eggs a la His Royal Highness Pun Lung, who was the first ruler of China. The eggs are first fried in deep hot fat as though they were doughnuts, and then garnished with minced lobster, hashed chicken, bamboo sprouts, water chestnuts, flaxseed knots, ham and mushrooms. From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 1 09:35:51 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:35:51 -0800 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031.210519.-208467.12.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Is this phenomenom related in any way to, for example, how many white contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? --- Duane Campbell wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > writes: > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > technically > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > Not directly on point, but related. > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > for > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > regular > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > D ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From douglas at NB.NET Fri Nov 1 10:33:23 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:33:23 -0500 Subject: Canoodle--bibliographic reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Gerald Cohen, with material primarily from e-mail messages of SAMUEL >JONES and JIM RADER: "Possible German Origin of Slang _Canoodle_ >'kiss, hug, fondle." in: _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 28, no. 3, >Dec. 1998, pp.2-6. The verb certainly looks equivalent to "knuddeln". In fact, one Web English/German dictionary gives exactly and only "knuddeln" as a translation of "canoodle". But what is the age of the word "knuddeln" in German? [I don't have access to the CoE issue cited.] On the Web I find the story (for which I don't vouch myself, of course) of an embarrassed English-speaker who asked a German waitress for a "Knudel" ("cuddle") when he wanted a "Knoedel" ("dumpling"). -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 12:41:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:41:15 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031212753.7C6D3BF96@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: Joshua, The word "register" is prescribed for cases just like these. Be careful though! Register and dialect are often intertwined. When I am in my basketball-playing register (clearly not a dialect), I find it difficult (perhaps impossible) to use the BSMS (bullshit Michigan speech) I have come to use in place of my LLL (lovely Louisville lilt). dInIs > this thought hit me on the way to the shower. any takers? > >when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop >consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically >a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >-joshua > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From chuck at CHUCKG.COM Fri Nov 1 13:53:14 2002 From: chuck at CHUCKG.COM (chuck grandgent) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:53:14 -0500 Subject: > Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: In Connecticut in the 60's, it was "cabbage night", a night of mischief. Chuck Grandgent > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:27:42 -0800 > From: Ed Keer > Subject: Night before Halloween > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Nov 1 16:47:26 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:47:26 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:40:00 -0600 Tom Kysilko writes: > Was there sacred music in the Waring editions? I remember anthems > from > church choir in the '60s that had pronunciation notations below the > lyrics > (and I mean English lyrics). Seems to me that they came from one > or > another of the directors of the St Olaf College Choir. Both Waring and St. Olaf's publish sacred music. I don't recall that Olaf had phonetics, but I could be wrong. The "dialect" of musical pronunciation is purely functional. As someone else noted, a choir sounds much better singing aaahhhh than eeeeeee. Same, to a slightly lesser extent, with soloists. Songwriters know this, so you have: Ahhhhhhh-l be th-air With the word "be" deliberately on a very short note. Almost "I'll b'there." Musical tones sound more pleasing with the vocal passage wide open on vowels, and many consonants sound just dreadful. Pronunciation by a trained singer makes use of this. We are so used to these conventions that we hardly notice it. For example, take the line, "You are the promised breathe of springtime." The first two words both have harsh sounds in them and are drawn out. To make it sound decent, the diphthong in "you" is shortened to "Yoooo" instead of "Ye-ooo" and "are" is sung as just an open aahhh, often with the "r" at the end totally dropped, or at most just suggested. An exception that proves this rule (in the original sense of the phrase) is blue grass music (if you haven't seen Oh Brother, Where Art Thou, you must) which cherishes the musically harsh speech of Appalachia. A blue grass singer would sing (only slightly exaggerated) "Yew arrrrr ...." D From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:00:34 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 2002 to 31 Oct 2002 (#2002-279) Message-ID: Buckeyes While the fruit of the buckeye treat isn't good to eat, those of us who are Buckeyes know that another buckeye is quite sweet--a kind of confection made with peanut butter, shaped into little balls, then dipped in chocolate, which then looks like the "real" buckeye, aka horse chestnut. They're often made for bake-sales and holidays. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:11:37 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:11:37 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 2002 to 31 Oct 2002 (#2002-279) Message-ID: Nigh before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this was the night for "trick or treating". Halloween night was just another night, from what I remember. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:03:29 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:03:29 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 18:54:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:54:17 EST Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: In French there is a strong convention that when the last word in a line of a song ends in a final "e" that is silent in speech, that "e" is pronounced as a schwa and has a separate note when sung. Example: "alouette" (skylark) is three syllables in spoken French: /a loo et/ but is four syllables in the folk song: /a loo et t@/. (Transcription note: I am not sure if the first syllable is pronounced like English "short a" or "short o".) Other well-known folk songs in which this can be heard (a hyphen inserted to show the sung-only syllable) include "Au Clair de la Lun-e" and "J'ai perdu le do de ma clarinett-e". In "Frer-e Jacqu-es" a pair of words that in speech are monosyllables are sung as two syllables each. Two Christmas carols (English version is "Oh Holy Night") "Minuit Chretian c'est l'heure solonell-e" and (English version is "Now is born the Divine Christ Child") "Il est ne le divine enfant Jouez hautbois, resonnez musett-es" - Jim Landau From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:03:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:03:20 -0500 Subject: FW: dialect change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The classic article on early Brit imitation of American music, and esp. of black singers more than Elvis, is Peter Trudgill's "Acts of Conflicting Identity: The Sociolinguistics of British Pop-song Pronunciation," in his book _On Dialect: Social and Geographical Perspectives_ (NYU Press, 1983). They'd try to be r-ful, for example, and to use /AE/ in words where "standard" Br Eng wouldn't, etc. It wasn't so much the U.S. market though as it was their idolizing of American pop singers, as I understand it. But yes, they became more "English" as time went on and they established their own identity. At 01:47 AM 11/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: >What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in >rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their >"accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect >of the sound of their dialect is diminished. > >I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the >Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be attributed to their >trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as >the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to >flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and >intonation. Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing >to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is >diminished. > >Frank Abate > >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >Not directly on point, but related. > >Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy >Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for >choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular >lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > >Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > >D From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:06:37 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021101093551.2490.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, see my reference to Trudgill, in an earlier note. The same surely applies here. And Elvis did it too, didn't he? At 01:35 AM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Is this phenomenon related in any way to, for example, how many white >contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they >sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? > > >--- Duane Campbell wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > > writes: > > > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > > technically > > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > > > Not directly on point, but related. > > > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > > for > > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > > regular > > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > > > D > > >===== >Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. >Associate Professor - English and Linguistics > & University Editor >Department of English >Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 >(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) >e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:09:28 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:09:28 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same for down here in the hills of southeastern Ohio (but not up north in Minnesota). At 12:03 PM 11/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and >this is when we did our "trick or treating". > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > >Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of English: Linguistics >Department of English >Grand Valley State University >1 Campus Drive >Allendale, MI 49401 USA >remlingk at gvsu.edu >tel: 616-895-3122 >fax: 616-895-3430 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 1 21:20:13 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:20:13 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: I have read this thread with great interest. As I understand it, many people have some special name for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some people go out and create mischief and others go trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has all activity moved to the 31st? thanks, Fritz >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 1 21:48:30 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:48:30 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was for going out and soaping windows, TPing houses, throwing eggs, etc. None of this was done in costume. Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in costume. That dichotomy is shared by the others that I mentioned. They just had different names for the 30th. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I have read this thread with great interest. As I > understand it, many people have some special name > for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some > people go out and create mischief and others go > trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one > of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other > activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating > again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? > Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day > before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July > 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of > activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has > all activity moved to the 31st? > thanks, > Fritz > >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> > Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called > it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our > "trick or treating". > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-895-3122 > fax: 616-895-3430 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:21:57 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:21:57 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021101214830.14008.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oops--I misreplied on Beggars' Night; it's on Hallowe'en, not the eve before, and is the term used for what little kids do door to door. If there's a different Mischief Night here I'm not aware of it--but I'll ask around. Our Latin American students will celebrate the Day of the Dead (All Souls' Day) tomorrow, of course, the day after All Saints' Day (today). So potentially it's a three- or four-day binge, positive or negative. At 01:48 PM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was >for going out and soaping windows, TPing houses, >throwing eggs, etc. None of this was done in costume. >Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in >costume. > >That dichotomy is shared by the others that I >mentioned. They just had different names for the 30th. > >Ed > > >--- FRITZ JUENGLING > wrote: > > I have read this thread with great interest. As I > > understand it, many people have some special name > > for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some > > people go out and create mischief and others go > > trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one > > of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other > > activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating > > again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? > > Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day > > before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July > > 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of > > activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has > > all activity moved to the 31st? > > thanks, > > Fritz > > >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> > > Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called > > it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our > > "trick or treating". > > > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > > > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > Department of English > > Grand Valley State University > > 1 Campus Drive > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > tel: 616-895-3122 > > fax: 616-895-3430 > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Nov 1 21:16:37 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:16:37 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: My children, William 12 1/2 and Grant 11, call it mischief night. They don't seem very upset that I'm disinclined to approve of their participation. At least for now, they accept my point of view. My suspicion is that this sort of deferral will end in the next year or so. Regards, David Barnhart From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:41:42 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:41:42 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:42 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: > >#Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the >#night of Halloween? ># >#Annie Bush > >Same night. > >Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric >1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. > >-- Mark A. Mandel = the eve before All Saints' (all the hallowed ones') Day, Nov. 1. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 1 23:32:19 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:32:19 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: Ed Keer, who I believe also said he was a native of southeastern PA, explains the difference: >> We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was for going out and >> soaping windows, TPing houses, throwing eggs, etc. None of this was >> done in costume. Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in >> costume. Exactly. The locally named "Tick-Tack Night" (I explained the term earlier) was also a time for soaping windows, etc., as Ed says. (Extremely rowdy kids would occasionally turn over a garbage can.) --Dodi Schultz From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Nov 2 00:00:59 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:00:59 -0800 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A couple of years ago a Portland muckraking weekly ran an article about a notorious and unscrupulous divorce attorney in the area. The article lead was something like "Have an Ex to Grind?" I haven't noticed such entries in RHHDAS--that is, the deliberate word play; but then I also haven't read every word of the volumes I have. Does anyone know whether such a cite would be fodder for inclusion in a subsequent edition? Peter R. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Nov 2 00:20:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:20:20 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021101171806.02d4a3f8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I'd forgotten about Beggars' Night from our years in Yellow Springs (SW Ohio) until it emerged on this thread. My wife and I both recall that it was movable if it didn't fall on a Friday or Saturday--so sometimes it fell on Oct. 31, sometimes not. That may well have been a strictly local custom. Peter Mc. --On Friday, November 1, 2002 5:21 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Oops--I misreplied on Beggars' Night; it's on Hallowe'en, not the eve > before, and is the term used for what little kids do door to door. If > there's a different Mischief Night here I'm not aware of it--but I'll ask > around. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 2 02:53:20 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:53:20 -0500 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 04:00:59PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote: > A couple of years ago a Portland muckraking weekly ran an article about a > notorious and unscrupulous divorce attorney in the area. The article lead > was something like "Have an Ex to Grind?" > > I haven't noticed such entries in RHHDAS--that is, the deliberate word > play; but then I also haven't read every word of the volumes I have. Does > anyone know whether such a cite would be fodder for inclusion in a > subsequent edition? For what? It could go under _ex_ n. 2 'a former spouse or lover', but HDAS wouldn't have entries for obvious puns of this sort, as they're not slang. I'd think that most dictionaries would regarded such uses as off limits for most purposes. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 2 02:58:21 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:58:21 -0500 Subject: ADS at LSA schedule? Message-ID: Would someone be willing to post the rough schedule of the ADS meetings at LSA? Just the outline, i.e. when the first meeting is and when the last meeting is. I can't find my copy of NADS, it's not on the ADS Web site, and I need to make my travel plans. Thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Sat Nov 2 04:10:06 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:10:06 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021031173521.02610210@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>Devil's Night. Used to be a night in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in >>Flint, where arsonists would set buildings on fire in droves. > >In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" ... was ... a time for pranks >or tricks .... I inquired among some young[er] Pittsburghers. An authority who is enrolled at the local middle school informs me that the night in question is called "Devil's night" and is considered appropriate for window-soaping, toilet-papering, etc. ... about the same as I remember it from Detroit ca. 1960. No arson is implied, I am told. -- Doug Wilson From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Nov 2 05:28:02 2002 From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:28:02 -0700 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <200211020501.WAA397556@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Message-ID: The discussion on dialect change in song raises an issue I have been vaguely aware of for some time and on which I recently received some surprising evidence. I do not regularly listen to popular music of any kind (that is not meant as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do hear sort of mainstream vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I frequently notice the singer using a relatively r-less pronunciation and monophthonizing /ai/ diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have not noticed them. Yet, as several of you have noted, when the singer is interviewed, s/he uses a fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. I thought I was on to some unrecognized sociolinguistic change that I would get around to researching some day, when I mentioned this phenomenon to a freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically naive and r-pronouncing, diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was nothing new to them, that several had taken pop singing lessons and that was a basic part of the instruction. I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common knowledge? Any similar experiences? Karl Krahnke English Department Colorado State University From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Nov 2 05:32:31 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:32:31 -0600 Subject: British rock singers -- was dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021102050107.61C2E4B0C@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 > From: Frank Abate > Subject: FW: dialect change? > > What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing > occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much > of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the > intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. > > I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the > Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be > attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying > to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, > too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal > characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. Later, when > their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as > Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. See: Trudgill Peter. 1983. 'Acts of Conflicting Identity. The Sociolingistics of British Pop-Song Pronunciation'. Peter Trudgill, On Dialect. Social and Geographical Perspectives. Oxford: Blackwell. 141-160. Very rough summary -- in the 1960's, British rock singers tried (consciously or unconsciously) to sound American -- the same kind of American as US rock singers. They didn't exactly get it right. Later, some rockers tried (again, consciously or unconsciously) to sound working-class English. This mixed oddly with attempts to sound American and with the singers' native dialects. Along the same lines, in recordings of country music from the 1920s through the 1940s, the singers used Southern accents. (One recording from the 1920s was of someone who sounded as if he'd been born in London, singing a British music hall song. I suspect whoever made the recording didn't notice the dialect difference.) At some point, country music started being sung in a stylized version of South Midlands/Upper South. Why the change? From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Nov 2 06:04:42 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 01:04:42 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: > > > Devil's Night. Used to be a night in Detroit, and to > > > a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set > > > buildings on fire in droves. > > > > In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" ... was ... > > a time for pranks or tricks .... > > I inquired among some young[er] Pittsburghers. An > authority who is enrolled at the local middle school informs > me that the night in question is called "Devil's night" and is > considered appropriate for window-soaping, toilet-papering, > etc. ... about the same as I remember it from Detroit ca. > 1960. No arson is implied, I am told. It was the very same ca. 1974-80 in Hamilton, Ontario and environs. On "Devil's Night" we went out soaping windows. Arson never entered into it. Don From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 2 07:07:19 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 02:07:19 -0500 Subject: ex to grind Message-ID: Peter Richardson suggests that the above phrase should be in a dictionary. Why? It's not a new meaning, just a play on words. I've never heard of dictionaries' including wordplay. --Dodi Schultz From cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 2 17:11:01 2002 From: cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lakita Hampton) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:11:01 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Sat Nov 2 18:20:28 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:20:28 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 2002 to 1 Nov 2002 (#2002-280) Message-ID: I am not sure what the significance of having beggars' night on the 30th is. We didn't go trick or treating again on the 31st. Although we usually did nothing on the 31st, sometimes we'd go to a party in the neighborhood. At the party we'd bob for apples and play a game where we were blind- folded and stuck our hands in food items that were made out to be body parts (eye balls, brains, other organs). The object of the game was to scare us rather than have us guess what the actual "parts" were (peeled grapes, cooked spaghetti...) I went to a Catholic elementary school where we dressed up like our patron saints on the 31st, rather than the typical Halloween characters. Each class paraded around the school in our costumes. The entire school then went to mass on Nov 1st for All Saints Day (but not in our saint costumes!). Kate Date: ***Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:20:13 -0800 From: ***FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: night before Halloween I have read this thread with great interest. *As I understand it, many people have some special name for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. *Some people go out and create mischief and others go trick or treating on that night. *So, if you do one of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating again)? *What's significant about the 30th at all? *Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July 3rd. *In those areas where there was some sort of activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has all activity moved to the 31st? thanks, Fritz Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> Night before Halloween: In *central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Sat Nov 2 18:29:40 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:40 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 2002 to 1 Nov 2002 (#2002-280) Message-ID: Date: ***Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 From: ***Frank Abate Subject: FW: dialect change? What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). *Part of this may be attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. *Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. Frank Abate On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) *doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D Peter Trudgill has an article called "Acts of Conflicting Identity" that discusses the register shift used by Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones, and others. He attitributes the shift in part to accomodation, in part to marketing, among other factors. The article is in Coupland and Jaworski's reader _Sociolinguistics_. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 2 20:56:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:56:59 -0500 Subject: Red Ink (1901); Jinks=Devil Message-ID: RED INK ARGONAUT LETTERS by Jerome Hart San Francisco: Payot, Upham & Company 1901 Pp. 309-354: OF EATING AND DRINKING Pg. 328: Doubtless many a bookmaker, drinking his noisy pint of champagne with all its pomp and circumstance of effervescence, cracked ice, and wine-cooler, looked with ill-concealed disdain on the quiet persons near him drinking "red ink" out of a bottle without any label. (OED has 1919 for "red ink"--ed.) Pg. 330: If you follow up the "ole mammy cook" through the South, you never find her. Pg. 345: At the _caffes_ wines, liqueurs, malt liquors, tea, coffee, milk, and chocolate are served, together with simple cold luncheons, such as ham, cold chicken, sandwiches, boiled eggs; this they call the _buffet-freddo_, or cold buffet. A third class is the _pasticheria_ or _gelatteria_, where pastry and ices (_gelati_) are served, together with tea, coffee, chocolate, and fequently wines, cordial, and liqueurs (the Italians drink almost no ardent liquor). Pg. 348: CAFFETERIA COffee Coffee with milk Coffee with an egg Coffee with bread Chocolate plain Chocolate made with milk Tea plain Tea with milk Tea with bread Cup of hot milk Butter Cream Vienna roll BUFFET ("Caffeteria" is probably not our "cafeteria"--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- JINKS=DEVIL IN OUR SECOND CENTURY FROM AN EDITOR'S NOTEBOOK by Jerome A. Hart San Francisco: The Pioneer Press, Publishers 1931 Pg. 356: While a member of the Bohemian Club, Humphrey Moore painted a cartoon for "The Devil" Jinks; Doctor Martin Luther, seated as a table reading the Holy Bible, was represented as tempted by two lovely girls in ballet costume, one of whom is bearing wine, while the other points a provacative toe at the worthy doctor's nose. The Devil himself is seated in the window casement, strumming a lute for the dancing girls. (...) This picture I always found one of the most interesting in the Club--partly on account of its intrinsic charm, and partly by reason of the painter's individuality. (The Bohemian Club ran many "jinks" events, "hi" and "low"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 01:06:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:06:32 EST Subject: In Like Flynn; New Restaurant Scene; Electronic Databases; NY Misc. Message-ID: IN LIKE FLYNN (continued) From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, 1 November 2002, "Hollywood's Latest Courtroom Drama," weekend section pg. W15, col. 5: Errol Flynn's legal counsel put the leading man on the witness stand to refute statutory rape charges before an all-female jury. His summary acquittal and enhanced swashbuckler's image led to the coining of the term "in like Flynn," a mantra of consequence-free action. Didn't the NEW YORK TIMES F.Y.I. section state that it comes from Boss Flynn of the Bronx? The NEW YORK TIMES or the WALL STREET JOURNAL--which one to believe? As I said, the Peter Tamony collection indicates that the term was used BEFORE Errol Flynn's trial. But I'm not in a rush here. We'll have full text of the LOS ANGELES TIMES in a few months. It's going to have something about movie star Errol Flynn. I'll report back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW RESTAURANT SCENE The same WSJ weekend section has an article on "The New Restaurant Scene." There aren't many new or regional terms to report here, but from pg. W2, col. 2: Not that there aren't new food trends. While Pan-Asian and comfort foods (meatloaf is in) still rule, several restaurants are suddenly dancing to a Latin beat, or even to a Turkish one. Communal tables are popping up all over the country, tasting portions are popular and gnocchi is the new risotto. (...) (Col. 4--ed.) IN A BURST OF PATRIOTISM, a hose of "New American" restaurants, such as Local 66 and Firefly, are opening in the national's capital. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ELECTRONIC DATABASES (continued) I can't wait for LOS ANGELES TIMES online. A little "cheeseburger" query, to see if Louisville's claim is valid or not. "Chili dog." "Corn dog." "Tri tip sandwich." "French dip sandwich." "Hot fudge sundae." And then the CHICAGO TRIBUNE online. So what else is there? I'll visit Columbia University on Monday (you can buy a monthly pass for $55), and I checked out the online databases. Columbia has WALL STREET JOURNAL full text from ProQuest. I didn't see the WASHINGTON POST full text on the menu, but that could be just that the menu wasn't updated. I'll do ProQuest Historical Newspapers and hope that the WP is there. The GERRITSON COLLECTION is online at Columbia and NYU, but not at the NYPL. It's a large collection of women's periodicals. There may be some food items to record there. THE NATION is at Columbia, but not at NYU or NYPL. It's very useful for political terms of the past 100-plus years. The AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES is at Columbia, but I didn't see it at NYU or NYPL. It's not all online yet, but there are a lot of wonderful period icals here. PUCK was a leading comic periodical published in New York City, and we'll have full text searching of that. That's just one goodie--I'll check it on Monday. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- O.T. NYC MISC. MATTHEW BRODERICK AND SARAH JESSICA PARKER HAVE A BABY--Front page of today's NEW YORK POST. Front page of today's NEW YORK DAILY NEWS. The most important news story in the world today! What makes it especially sickening is that the POST had a photographer stalk the pregnant SJP for months, submitting photos to PAGE SIX. Neither newspaper put my "Big Apple" work on the front page. The NEW YORK DAILY NEWS never covered it at all. PARKING VIOLATIONS "MITIGATION MEMO"--Yesterday at work, I was warned to follow the now-infamous and illegal "mitigation memo." Judges can no longer mitigate the now $105 fine for a "crosswalk," for example. The city is not required to paint crosswalk lines, and can sock you $105 (plus tow) for an inch of your bumper over the imaginary line. This drama happens every day at every street corner. Some of this stuff would be a scandal, but it won't be, as long as there are Jennifer Aniston photos around. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 04:19:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 23:19:12 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) Message-ID: I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. 2 June 1939, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 37: Lee Gould of the branch chapter formed by the Elizabethan Chowder and Marching Society at Harvard University will lead an open forum on the relative merits of blasting operations. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 06:21:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 01:21:38 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: CALIFORNIA DREAMING: I can almost taste those "California Roll" and "Taco" cites in the LOS ANGELES TIMES. --------------------------------------------------------------- TUNA Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. I've been reading books on Mediterranean travels since coming back from Malta. See A VOYAGE TO CADIZ AND GIBRALTAR, UP THE MEDITERRANEAN TO SICILY AND MALTA IN 1810 & 1811 (London: F. Harding, 1815) by Lt. Gen. Cockburn, in two volumes. Volume Two, pages 292-295, has a chapter called "The Tunny Factory." The NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has: "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. I have to check the original. That "(tuna)" could have been added much later by the editors, but "Aku" is still useful. The NEW YORK TIMES had lots of "tuna" hits before 1881. To reduce it, I added "fish." Still, I didn't find a pre-1881 "tuna." I got the same bad "matches" that I got on "jazz" and "dude." Fred Shapiro can re-check if I missed a good hit...I think the "tuna" matches were really "tons." --------------------------------------------------------------- GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of these as "hot dog" matches. Bad search engine! Bad! I'll try it a little more, but I'm going crazy. From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sun Nov 3 10:49:50 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:49:50 +1000 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <200211030500.gA350Hkc005458@mailhub2.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: Karl Krahnke's observations are intriguing. Outside the rhotic domains (demesnes?) of N. America, the clear majority of pop bands and artist(e)s affect a heavily rhotic accent, and modify vowels, with varying degrees of mangling, in the direction of what they believe mainstream US practice to be. The rhotics are often anything but authentic (over-retroflex, etc.). This practice is picked up by non-professionals, including pre-school children, who have parallel phonologies, one for pop and one for parents; they swap effortlessly and with little interference between the two codes. -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 3 15:05:11 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:05:11 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society Message-ID: Barry Popik asked about the above. Generically (all l/c), the term "chowder and marching society" (or "club") seems to be pretty widely used to denote any civic/get-together group that combines community service with social interaction. Groups so named formally ("Chowder and Marching Society") appear to go back to the mid-19th century. A column in the Maine Journal for 3 July 2000 refers to a town's "Chowder and Marching Society band," described as "a venerable institution founded during the Civil War..." The account goes on to describe the group's activities during the 1880s. See: http://storytellers.maine.com/july_3_2000.home --Dodi Schultz From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 16:14:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:14:05 EST Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". - Jim Landau From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 3 16:17:23 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:17:23 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?) Message-ID: Barry Popik asks about *tuna* pre-1866. I have a copy of the 1864 Merriam-Webster unabridged. *Tuna* is not listed. --Dodi Schultz From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Nov 3 17:47:37 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:47:37 -0700 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities Message-ID: One of my colleagues, who grew up in Maryland, sent me the following information. Anyone hear of this? Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:49:59 -0700 From: Tom Willard To: Rudolph C Troike I heard that there was a different prank or trick for each of the last seven days of October. Was this an Irish-American custom? If so, I suspect it was more American than Irish! TW From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Nov 3 17:51:21 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:51:21 -0600 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it verbatim but it was something like: "That cheeses me out." The reference was to patriotic music and the speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', which I think we discussed some months ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 3 18:13:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:13:32 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:47 AM -0700 11/3/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >One of my colleagues, who grew up in Maryland, sent me the following >information. Anyone hear of this? > > Rudy > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:49:59 -0700 >From: Tom Willard >To: Rudolph C Troike > >I heard that there was a different prank or trick for each of the last >seven days of October. Was this an Irish-American custom? If so, I suspect >it was more American than Irish! > >TW I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a small candy) each day. L From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Nov 3 18:13:55 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:13:55 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 01:13:32PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, > we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a > small candy) each day. We do? I must have had a deprived childhood. For Hanukah, OTOH, we did get a small gift on each day. Jesse Sheidlower From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 3 18:28:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:28:12 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: <20021103181355.GA893@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1:13 PM -0500 11/3/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 01:13:32PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, >> we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a >> small candy) each day. > >We do? I must have had a deprived childhood. > >For Hanukah, OTOH, we did get a small gift on each day. > >Jesse Sheidlower Sorry; I should have supplied a ;-)> L From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Nov 3 19:37:32 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:37:32 -0600 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: >At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a term for this, but I have a few good examples: "Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") "Kick the bucket" ( = die) Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." The lady is very conscientious and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had no idea what the boss wanted her to do. She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story some years later. Gerald Cohen From cdmull01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sun Nov 3 19:56:32 2002 From: cdmull01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Christi Mullen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:56:32 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021101150521.02d4f9b8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > Yes, see my reference to Trudgill, in an earlier note. The same surely > applies here. And Elvis did it too, didn't he? > > At 01:35 AM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >Is this phenomenon related in any way to, for example, how many white > >contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they > >sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? > > > > > >--- Duane Campbell wrote: > > > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > > > writes: > > > > > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > > > technically > > > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > >From cdmull01 at morehead-st.edu I don't think this has anything to do with dialect change, I think it's more of a cluster reduction issue, I'm not really sure but anyway...Where does the word "daburnit" come from? In case you're not readily familiar with it, the context in which it is used is like "Oh, shit." "Oh, daburnit." Sometimes people will say "that daburn thing." It's negative. Like, "that goshdarn thing." Thank you. > > > Not directly on point, but related. > > > > > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > > > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > > > for > > > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > > > regular > > > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > > > > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > > > > > D > > > > > >===== > >Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > >Associate Professor - English and Linguistics > > & University Editor > >Department of English > >Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > >(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) > >e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Nov 3 20:21:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:21:01 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <1036353392.3dc57f703a98f@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: >Where does the word "daburnit" come from? I take this as "Dad burn it", a transparent euphemism for "God damn it". I heard it routinely 30-40 years ago. I also used to hear "Dag nab it", an equivalent. -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Nov 3 20:21:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:21:34 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little gratuitous.) There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme a dollar." Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly "Do you have a dollar?" "Yes." "Well, will you loan me a dollar." "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" dInIs >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a >term for this, but I have a few good examples: >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." >The lady is very conscientious >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story >some years later. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 20:53:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:53:03 EST Subject: Halloween (OUP, 2002); Davidson's FOOD (Penguin, 2002) Message-ID: HALLOWEEN: FROM PAGEN RITUAL TO PARTY NIGHT by Nicholas Rogers Oxford: Oxford University Press 198 pages, hardcover, $23 2002 I got an Amazon alert for this book just yesterday--after Halloween. The author teaches at York University in Canada and has won awards for previous books. This book won't win any. It doesn't have a bibliography. There are a limited number of illustrations (15?). This is the definitive book on Halloween? Couldn't get to even 200 double-spaced pages? This is an OUP book? There are 20 pages of footnotes, where you'll find citations to such publications as the TORONTO EVENING TELEGRAM, TORONTO GLOBE, VANCOUVER SUN, and MONTREAL GAZETTE. Who knew that Canadians were so scary? On the plus side, he did cover Detroit. "Devil's Night" is mentioned on pages 97-100. And he cites Ze'ev Chafets, DEVIL'S NIGHT AND OTHER TRUE TALES OF DETROIT (New York: Random House, 1990), which covers the subject better. This is a poor treatment for "trick-or-treat" (it's not even an entry in the index--you have to look under "Halloween," then "and trick-or-treating"). He cites Tad Tuleja, "Trick or Treat: Pre-Texts and Contexts." in Santino, ed., HALLOWEEN, pg. 88, which again covered the subject better. "Beggars' Night"--no entry in the index for any "beggar." "Gate Night" is the term I'm used to in downstate New York. You'll have to check that on Google (where it was discussed eight years ago), because it's not in the index here, either. Give it a browse at your local bookstore (it's unfortunately under "New Age"). It's probably not worth your money, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE PENGUIN COMPANION TO FOOD by Alan Davidson New York: Penguin Books 1073 pages, paperback, $30 2002 Penguin? This was originally published in 1999 as THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD. Oxford can't publish its own book in paperback? I've discussed the book before, and I agree with "Chow Hound" Jim Leff's review on his web site. It's a great work by one person, but suffers greatly by being written by one person. There might be a long essay on some obscure British food item, then a tossed-off entry on a food everybody really eats today. It should be on your bookshelf, but it's not the last word in food. I noticed a 2002 copyright. The book says "Revised edition published by Penguin Books." I gave a quick check to Andy Smith. It cites "Popcorn Polka" in Davidson's journal PPC (1997). Surely, Davidson must know that Smith published a BOOK on popcorn? On a person note, there's the "frankfurter" entry on page 379: The name is thought to stem from newspaper cartoons of around 1900 by T. A. Dorgan, which portrayed talking frankfurters; these were also known as "dachshund sausages" because of their shape. Yep, this book is thoroughly revised. Yeesh! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOOKS MISC. KEN BURNS AND THE AMERICAN LIFE--A sign at my local Barnes & Noble bookstore. Over half of the display is NEW YORK: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY--written by _Ric_ Burns. DAVID SHULMAN'S STEVE BRODIE BOOK--A publisher was keeping his "Steve Brodie" stuff. So Shulman finally wrote a letter to try to get his stuff back. Nothing happened. He called. Nothing. So he used my "attorney at law" stationery. He got his stuff back. He also got a letter, saying how the published couldn't possibly consider a book on Steve Brodie, blah-blah-blah. I told Shulman I didn't want to read it or to analyze it. Obviously, there are people out there who'll treat a 90-year-old scholar like crap. It reminded me of my letter from the Chicago Historical Society on why they couldn't possibly consider an article on "the Windy City." (The CHS web site would later publish incorrect information about its city.) Publishing is an incentuous business, and they want to publish what's just been successfully published. Original work is beyond them. So, I guess, we don't have an OUP "Steve Brodie" book, but do we have OUP's HALLOWEEN (2002). From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 4 00:08:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:08:26 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: <4C49CDCE.16031EA0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching #Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. I don't know the date, but in Crockett Johnson's comic strip "Barnaby", ca. WW2 and probably a bit earlier, the leprechaun (or something similar) Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it definitely ends with the target phrase. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 4 00:12:15 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:12:15 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <7c.30ac082f.2af6a54d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How do you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you sew?" or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main verb with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel tov" is literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means 'good luck'. -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Nov 4 01:05:23 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:05:23 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel writes: >......Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's >Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it >definitely ends with the target phrase. > >-- Crockett Johnson's Mr. O'Malley's organization was actually called "Elves', Leprechauns', Gnomes' & Little Men's Chowder & Marching Society" I believe. '43, or possibly '44, seems about the right date, to me. A Murie From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Mon Nov 4 01:02:58 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:02:58 -0500 Subject: ameripop to britpop Message-ID: Of course, along these same lines are a handful of American punk bands from the early nineties, most notably Green Day, who spoke pretty standard American English in interviews but adopted bad Brit accents when they sang. Maybe an attempt to sound like the Brit-punk (the Sex Pistols, etc.) that they all grew up with? -Joshua >I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the >who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be >attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even >trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- >but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many >dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. >Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to >sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is >diminished. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Nov 4 01:25:51 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:25:51 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: But aren't "How do you do?" and its even more truncated for "Howdy" examples of something even further removed from intent than an indirect speech act? These sound rather more like instances of what Malinowski called phatic communion, where it's the verbal social interaction that's important not the communication of intent. Herb > When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the > "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to > it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For > example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a > "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut > the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little > gratuitous.) > > There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are > grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. > On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," > explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- > and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct > (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme > a dollar." > > Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can > be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a > case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly > > "Do you have a dollar?" > "Yes." > "Well, will you loan me a dollar." > "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" > > dInIs > > > > > > > >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal > >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is > >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally > >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > > > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a > >term for this, but I have a few good examples: > >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) > >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. > >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German > >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") > >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in > >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As > >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." > >The lady is very conscientious > >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though > >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had > >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset > >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that > >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly > >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story > >some years later. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 02:01:20 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:01:20 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0500 11/3/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >#My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >#meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. ># Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >#used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >#means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > >Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How do >you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you sew?" >or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main verb >with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, >supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel tov" is >literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means 'good >luck'. > >-- Mark A. Mandel cf. also "God be with ye'" > Goodbye. Besides the indirect speech act, politeness, and indirection factors Dennis mentioned, there's a process whereby expressions may implicate something they don't literally express, but do so in a way that is partially incorporated into their form as well as their meaning. This is discussed in the literature under the labels "standardized nonliterality" (Kent Bach) and "short-circuited implicature" (Jerry Morgan). The latter, in his classic paper "Two types of convention in indirect speech acts" (Syntax and Semantics 9: Pragmatics, Academic Press, 1978), has lots of nice examples that he tracks through changes over time, including the aforementioned "Break a leg!" (vs. #"Fracture a tibia!"), "This is Larry Horn"/"Larry Horn is speaking" (when getting a phone call; cf. the impossible "Larry Horn is speaking", "I am Larry Horn", etc.), "You can say THAT again!" (vs. #"You can repeat that!"). In each case, he argues, a speaker unaware of the relevant convention of usage (not a meaning convention on his account) might be able to reconstruct the intended non-literal speech act, but normally these are understood without having to be calculated--the inference is, in Morgan's phrase, short-circuited. Eventually the expression may end up literally expressing what it used to merely implicate or suggest; this is typical of euphemisms, and a nice example from the paper (due originally to Jerry Sadock) is the fact that "go to the bathroom" had changed its conventional meaning at some point before I could complain that your dog went to the bathroom on my living room rug. Another example, of course, is "goodbye". Larry From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Nov 4 05:25:06 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:25:06 -0700 Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... Message-ID: Re: kick the bucket, go to the bathroom, etc. The old-fashioned school term for these, particularly used in foreign language teaching, is "idiom", or "idiomatic expression". No need to go much further in search of a label, when this will do for most people (except for linguists, who, as we agreed earlier in a lively exchange, are not normal). Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 07:33:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 02:33:40 EST Subject: "Shrieking Violet" Peggy Moran Message-ID: This obituary is from today's (Monday's) NEW YORK TIMES, but it's been in other newspapers for a few days now. Is "shrieking violet" a "shrinking violet" variant that OED wants recorded? Or the HDAS? I can check her clipping file at the Lincoln Center Library, and look for the term on LOS ANGELES TIMES full text when that becomes available soon. Peggy Moran, 84, 'Shrieking Violet' Known for 1940's Horror Films, Dies By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AMARILLO, Calif., Nov. 3 — Peggy Moran, who made more than 30 horror and western films in the 1930's and 1940's and was known as one of Hollywood's top "shrieking violets," died here Oct. 25. She was 84. The cause was complications from injuries she sustained in an automobile accident, said her son, Peter Koster of Oakland, Calif. Ms. Moran's reputation was made by a handful of popular horror movies, including "The Mummy's Hand" (1940) and "Horror Island" (1941). She also appeared in "Ninotchka" (1939), which starred Greta Garbo. While under contract to Warner Brothers and Universal, Ms. Moran made dozens of B films. She also starred opposite Gene Autry in "Rhythm of the Saddle" and with Roy Rogers in "King of the Cowboys." She was a co-star in many comedies, including "One Night in the Tropics," which was Abbott and Costello's screen debut. (...) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 08:45:48 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:45:48 -0800 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An expression I hear students use is "Can I see your pencil?" , meaning "Can I use your pencil?" --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose > literal > #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as > something else. > # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are > you?" but is > #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which > literally > #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How > do > you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you > sew?" > or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main > verb > with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, > supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel > tov" is > literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means > 'good > luck'. > > -- Mark A. Mandel ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Nov 4 12:23:00 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:23:00 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 4 12:42:13 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:42:13 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <000f01c283a1$1da7ba60$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Of course one may break down the functions of indirect speech acts further, but I don't see how this makes them any less indirect. The fact that they carry social or interactional meaning (rather more directly than some other sentences) is undoubtedly the case, but I wouldn't want to mislead someone who asked about "noinliteral" speech by saying that the linguist's word for such things was the Malinowskian label. This brings us (dangerously) close to the discussion of "convention," speech act territory where we would surely not want to go in our initial response to this request for a label. I go there anyhow: Non-conventional indirectness: A: It's cold in here. B: (Hmmmmmmmm. Why is A informing me (as the statement form of her sentence suggests) about the temperature in my room. Let's see. Oh, she might be cold, and, since it's my room and she doesn't want to seem presumptuous, I bet she wants me to close the window, but, since she doesn't want to seem rude or demanding she didn;t say "Close the window you bozo"). Oh! Are you cold? Here, let me close the window. Conventional indirectness: A: How's it going? B: Surely B does not reason as follows: (Hmmmmmm. What is 'it.' Where could 'it' be going? What the !~@#$%^&*()_+ is A talking about.) Instead he just says "Fine." Notice that you have to "know" the language to get the conventional indirectness, but you can "figure out" the indirectness in the first example (in a language you spoke badly). I dare not suggest that the line between the two is fixed, if for no other reason than the fact that conventions must be established, and, while they are on their way, they may exist is a muddy middle ground. dInIs But aren't "How do you do?" and its even more truncated for "Howdy" examples of something even further removed from intent than an indirect speech act? These sound rather more like instances of what Malinowski called phatic communion, where it's the verbal social interaction that's important not the communication of intent. Herb > When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the > "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to > it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For > example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a > "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut > the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little > gratuitous.) > > There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are > grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. > On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," > explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- > and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct > (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme > a dollar." > > Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can > be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a > case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly > > "Do you have a dollar?" > "Yes." > "Well, will you loan me a dollar." > "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" > > dInIs > > > > > > > >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal > >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is > >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally > >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > > > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a > >term for this, but I have a few good examples: > >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) > >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. > >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German > >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") > >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in > >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As > >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." > >The lady is very conscientious > >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though > >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had > >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset > >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that > >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly > >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story > >some years later. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 4 12:45:53 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:45:53 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <20021104084548.11926.qmail@web13310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was an expression I used as early as 1948. Glad to see some good uses hang in there. dInIs An expression I hear students use is "Can I see your pencil?" , meaning "Can I use your pencil?" --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose > literal > #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as > something else. > # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are > you?" but is > #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which > literally > #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How > do > you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you > sew?" > or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main > verb > with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, > supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel > tov" is > literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means > 'good > luck'. > > -- Mark A. Mandel ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 13:57:47 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:57:47 -0800 Subject: cheese out In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434150@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Variations on the phrase "Cheese me off" were fairly common around Salt Lake City in the late 60's and early 70's. I haven't heard this usage for years. At the time, I thought it had evolved from "Tees me off". --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This > American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it > verbatim but it was something like: > "That cheeses me out." > The reference was to patriotic music and the > speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The > speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a > regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the > pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', > which I think we discussed some months ago. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 14:03:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:03:32 EST Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 14:06:53 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:06:53 -0800 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021101221346.00a57ab0@lamar.colostate.edu> Message-ID: I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as possible are two things which are stressed consistently. --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > issue I have been > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > recently received some > surprising evidence. > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > kind (that is not meant > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > hear sort of mainstream > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > frequently notice the singer > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > monophthonizing /ai/ > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > not noticed them. Yet, > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > interviewed, s/he uses a > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > sociolinguistic change that I would > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > this phenomenon to a > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > naive and r-pronouncing, > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > nothing new to them, > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > was a basic part of the > instruction. > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > knowledge? Any similar > experiences? > > Karl Krahnke > English Department > Colorado State University ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Nov 4 14:07:45 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:07:45 -0600 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I'm familiar with 'cheese X off' which I take to be a milder version of 'piss X off'. What interested me about this example was the different meaning. She wasn't indicating her anger, rather her opinion on the cheesiness of the music. -----Original Message----- From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Mon 11/4/2002 7:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: cheese out Variations on the phrase "Cheese me off" were fairly common around Salt Lake City in the late 60's and early 70's. I haven't heard this usage for years. At the time, I thought it had evolved from "Tees me off". --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This > American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it > verbatim but it was something like: > "That cheeses me out." > The reference was to patriotic music and the > speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The > speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a > regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the > pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', > which I think we discussed some months ago. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Nov 4 14:07:42 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:07:42 -0500 Subject: Query: German Words of the year Message-ID: De: JochenABaer at aol.com Date: Mon 28 Oct 2002 10:51:53 America/New_York Resent-To: ADS-L ADS-L À: gbarrett at americandialect.org Objet: Query: "Words of the year" "Please forward this message to whom it may concern." Dear madam or sir, On behalf of the "Gesellschaft für deutsche Sprache" ("German Language Society") in Wiesbaden/Germany, may I kindly invite you to participate in a publication project? Since 1971, the Gesellschaft für deutsche Sprache votes the German "word of the year". As a member of the Gesellschaft, I recently have been asked to be the editor of an anthology, which contains some research on the history of this project, on its cultural relevance and on the public interest, as well as short essays on every "word of the year". Of course, in this context, it would be very interesting to refer to similar projects in other countries, too. I would like to invite you to participate in this anthology. I would be most obliged, if you could contribute a short essay (5-10 pages) on the "words of the year" selected by the American Dialect Society. It should contain some remarks on the Society, its structures and purposes, especially, of course, the idea of voting on the annual "word of the year", the history of the project, the criteria, on which the vote is based etc. The essay would be translated into German (so, if it was convenient to you, it could also be a text that had been published before). As the anthology will try to connect specifically scientific interests with those of a broader public, the essay may well pursue a stilistic "middle course". For all further questions, of course I will be to your disposal. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours sincerely Jochen Bär ************************************ Dr. Jochen A. Bär JochenABaer at aol.com Universität Heidelberg Germanistisches Seminar Hauptstrasse 207-209 69117 Heidelberg GERMANY Tel. 0049-6221-543244 Fax 0049-6221-543257 -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org Small Business Apple Macintosh Support in New York City http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Nov 4 16:34:25 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:34:25 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <168.1690f643.2af7d834@aol.com> Message-ID: > In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > > > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? > > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one > shudders and exclaims > : > > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." > > "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age > I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) > has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should > not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb > ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits > your context better than a derivation from the name of the > Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar > in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely > to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than > to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. Having seen the same cartoon, I immediately took it to be from the search engine, not googly eyes. "To google" is used not only to mean search a web page, but to "google" a person is to do a quick background check on that person, searching the web for references to them, not just to find their web pages. Often you google someone to find their current address or place of employment. In an earlier era the guy in the bar might have said, "someone just stepped on my grave." I've never heard anyone use "to google" simply to mean to look at someone. The name of the search engine comes from the mathematical term "googol," with the spelling changed for trademark purposes. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Nov 4 17:14:55 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:14:55 -0500 Subject: Dialect change Message-ID: Like James Smith, I'm an active choral singer and conductor. As I linguist I've often been bemused by the instructions that conductors give their choirs about diction, hardly a new reaction, since Pike talked, I think in his Phonetics, about taking voice lessons just to learn the vocabulary and theory that voice teachers apply to diction. The reason, I think, that choral conductors, including me, try to derhotacize choral diction is that the American retroflexed cenral approximant involve also increased pharyngeal constriction, which seriously cuts resonance. The whole choral sound weakens at a postvocalic /r/. As far as the r-lessness of much pop music is concerned, I think there is also some vocal training involved here. I have read that when Motown was at its height in the 60s-80s, they insisted on rigorous voice training for their vocalists, and any good vocal training will train the singer to drop the postvocalic /r/s. Herb Stahlke > I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a > number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to > make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the > end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as > possible are two things which are stressed > consistently. > > > > --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > > issue I have been > > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > > recently received some > > surprising evidence. > > > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > > kind (that is not meant > > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > > hear sort of mainstream > > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > > frequently notice the singer > > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > > monophthonizing /ai/ > > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > > not noticed them. Yet, > > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > > interviewed, s/he uses a > > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > > sociolinguistic change that I would > > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > > this phenomenon to a > > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > > naive and r-pronouncing, > > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > > nothing new to them, > > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > > was a basic part of the > > instruction. > > > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > > knowledge? Any similar > > experiences? > > > > Karl Krahnke > > English Department > > Colorado State University > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 17:21:01 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:21:01 EST Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: In a message dated 11/3/02 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > TUNA > > Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. from the making of America database Resources of the Pacific slope : a statistical and descriptive summary of the mines and minerals, climate, topography, agriculture, commerce ... of the states and territories west of the Rocky Mountains / by J. Ross Browne ; with a sketch of the settlement and exploration of Lower California / [by A.S. Taylor]. Browne, J. Ross (John Ross), 1821-1875. 678, 200 p. ; 24 cm. New York : D. Appleton, 1869. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AFQ0684.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0843 page A165 "The fruit of the tarajo is similar to the tuna (prickly pear)..." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AJL3430.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0124 "The tuna, or gigantic fruit-bearing cactus..." > I've been reading books on Mediterranean travels since coming back from > Malta. See A VOYAGE TO CADIZ AND GIBRALTAR, UP THE MEDITERRANEAN TO SICILY > AND MALTA IN 1810 & 1811 (London: F. Harding, 1815) by Lt. Gen. Cockburn, in > two volumes. Volume Two, pages 292-295, has a chapter called "The Tunny > Factory." > The NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has: > > "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it > going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." > Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 > In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 ( > Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. > > I have to check the original. That "(tuna)" could have been added much > later by the editors, but "Aku" is still useful. > The NEW YORK TIMES had lots of "tuna" hits before 1881. To reduce it, I > added "fish." Still, I didn't find a pre-1881 "tuna." I got the same bad " > matches" that I got on "jazz" and "dude." Fred Shapiro can re-check if I > missed a good hit...I think the "tuna" matches were really "tons." > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE > > What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. > THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and > THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). > I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I > looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." > I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. > Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of > these as "hot dog" matches. > Bad search engine! Bad! > I'll try it a little more, but I'm going crazy. > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 18:15:24 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:15:24 EST Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: Please disregard my earlier posting on the subject. I hit the wrong key and sent an unfinished version of this post. In a message dated 11/3/02 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > TUNA > > Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. Easy, and nothing fishy about it either. More precisely, it is fishy, but it does not involve fish. "Tuna" is a word the Spanish applied to a New World cactus whose botanical name is either _Opuntia tuna_ or _Opuntia ficus-indica_ (there is some uncertainty as to whether _O. tuna_ is a separate species or merely a variety of _O. ficus-indica_. This is sort of a "prickly pair" among botanists.). This plant was introduced into the Mediterranean and other areas and is known in Israel as the "sabra". In English there are a variety of names, including "prickly pear", "Indian fig", and "tuna". Herely is a samply of pre-1881 English-language citations for the Opuntia "tuna" in the Making of America database Americanisms; the English of the New world. Schele De Vere, Maximilian, 1820-1898. 685 p. New York, C. Scribner & company, 1872. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AGD2486.0001 .001;view=image;seq=00000688 "The prickly pear cactus, known also as Indian fig (Cactus opuntia) bears a purplish pear-shaped fruit, which in Southern countries becomes not only edible, but luscious, and is there generally known under its Spanish name tuna-a term which also serves to designate the pleasant beverage made from the fruit." The book of the world: being an account of all republics, empires, kingdoms, and nations, in reference to their geography, statistics, commerce. &c. ... By Richard S. Fisher ... Illustrated with maps and charts. Fisher, Richard Swainson. 2 v. 3 fold. maps. (inc. front.) fold. col. plates 26 cm. New York, J. H. Colton, 1852-53. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=ABL1714.0002 .001;view=image;seq=00000397 "[referring to the Etna region of Sicily] By the side of the plane, the poplar, and the willow, grow the cactus tuna, or prickly fig, the orange, the citron, the olive, the myrtle, the laurel, the carob tree, and the pomegranate; Resources of the Pacific slope : a statistical and descriptive summary of the mines and minerals, climate, topography, agriculture, commerce ... of the states and territories west of the Rocky Mountains / by J. Ross Browne ; with a sketch of the settlement and exploration of Lower California / [by A.S. Taylor]. Browne, J. Ross (John Ross), 1821-1875. 678, 200 p. ; 24 cm. New York : D. Appleton, 1869. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AFQ0684.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0843 page A165 "The fruit of the tarajo is similar to the tuna (prickly pear)..." The natural wealth of California. Comprising duly history, geography, topography, and scenery; climate; agriculture and commercial products; geology, zoology, and botany; mineralogy, mines, and mining processes; manufactures; steamship lines, railroads, and commerce; immigration,a detailed description of each county. By Titus Fey Cronise. Cronise, Titus Fey. San Francisco H. H. Hancroft & Co., 1868 http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AJL3430.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0124 "The tuna, or gigantic fruit-bearing cactus..." I was not able to find a pre-1881 usage of "tuna" meaning "tunafish". The next time you meet an Israeli, be sure to tell him he's a tuna. > "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it > going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." > Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 > In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 ( > Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. It is not clear from context whether this aku is tunafish or sabra. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE > > What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. > THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and > THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). > I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I > looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." > I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. > Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of > these as "hot dog" matches. > Bad search engine! Bad! Probably not a bad search engine but rather an OCR reader struggling with poor-quality originals. There are not many bad search engines on the Internet. There are, however, thousands upon thousands of pages of text which should never have been let near an OCR reader in the first place. Top it off with the habit of MOA (and I'm sure many other databases) of scanning by page instead of by column, meaning that many spurious words are created across a column break and it's not surprising that you get tons of false positives. Suppose the OCR reader encounters the following: ...... For- tuna ..... This is obviously the name Fortuna that happens to be split across a line break. So should the search engine disregard it on a search on the word "tuna"? No, because it might possibly be the name of a health-food group "Against-Meat-For-Tuna". By the way, in the 1872 citation above, the OCR reader misread the orginal as "tZuna" and I found it only because the OCR reader correctly picked up the entry "tuna" in the index of the book. - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 18:16:55 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:16:55 EST Subject: ADS at LSA schedule? Message-ID: Jesse can't find our program because the ADS newsletter is behind schedule (I hope to finish it this week) and the program was undergoing some changes. But here it now is in all its finality and glory. - Allan Metcalf American Dialect Society FINAL PROGRAM Atlanta Hilton, January 2003 THURSDAY, JANUARY 2 Session 1: Language Attitudes and Perception, 1:00-2:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 1. "Jew vs. Gentile." Thomas M. Paikeday, Lexicography, Inc., Brampton, Ontario. 2. "Reality Check! Evaluations of Real and Imagined Varieties of Non-U.S. English." Stephanie Lindemann, Georgia State Univ. 3. "The 'Grand Daddy of English': U.S., U.K., and Australian Students' Attitudes Towards Varieties of English." Betsy Evans, Peter Garrett, and Angie Williams, Cardiff Univ., Wales. Session 2: Lexical Variation in English: The American West and Montreal, 3:00-5:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 4. "Variation on the Range: Ranching Terms in Colorado Folk Speech." Lamont Antieau, Univ. of Georgia. 5. "Apparent Time vs. Real Time: New Evidence from Montreal English." Charles Boberg, McGill Univ. 6. "Substantial Evidence of Lexical Variation in El Paso, Texas." Anne Marie Hamilton, Univ. of Georgia. 7. "The Snake River Region Revisited: Dialect Change in Southeastern Idaho from 1971 to 2001." Sonja Launspach, Idaho State Univ. Session 3: Grammatical Variation, 5:30-7:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 8. "Need in? Want Out?" Erica J. Benson, Michigan State Univ. 9. "Grammar in Southeastern Ohio Speech: South Midland or Appalachian?" Sandra L. Nesbitt and Beverly Olson Flanigan, Ohio Univ. 10. "An Investigation of LAGS Past Tense Forms." Allison P. Burkette, Univ. of Mississippi. FRIDAY, JANUARY 3 Executive Council, 830-10:30 a.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Open meeting; all members welcome. Presiding: ADS President Dennis Preston. The Executive Council discusses and sets policy for the Society and hears reports form officers, editors, committee chairs, and regional secretaries. This year's most important agenda items are: 1. Matters concerning American Speech recently raised by editor Connie Eble. Among them, she would like to retire as editor after her tenth year (in 2005), so we need to begin a search for a new editor. 2. Changes to the ADS constitution proposed by Ronald Butters. Words of the Year Nominations Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Open meeting of New Words Committee 10:30 a.m.-noon: New Words Committee. Chair, Wayne Glowka, Georgia Coll. and State Univ. Review of new words of 2002, and of nominations for Words of the Year (see Page 3). Final candidates will be identified in preparation for the afternoon vote (see Page XXX). Session 4: Phonetics and Phonology, 2:00-3:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 11. "Show Me Mergers: How Missourians Deal with Too Many Vowels." Matthew J. Gordon, Univ. of Missouri, Columbia. 12. "Mergers in the Mountains." Kirk Hazen, West Virginia Univ. 13. "N/o:/ W/e:/ J/o:/ s/e:/: A Look at Monophthongization in Two NCCS Dialects." Nancy Niedzielski and Alexis Grant, Rice Univ. Session 5: Discourse Communities, Strategies, and Speech Acts, 3:45-5:15 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 14. "Linguistic Ecology and the Construction of Sociocultural Identity: Discourse Communities of a Southern American University." Catherine Davies, Univ. of Alabama. 15. "Appalachia Discourse Strategies in the Literary Dialect of Charles Frazier's Cold Mountain." Stephanie Hysmith, Ohio Univ. 16. "Tobaccospeak: Image Repair as a Variety of American English." Roger W. Shuy, Georgetown Univ. Words of the Year: Final Discussion and Voting, 5:30-6:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton Bring-Your-Own-Book Exhibit and Reception, 6:30-7:30 p.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton SATURDAY, JANUARY 4 Annual Business Meeting, 8:00-9:00 a.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton. Agenda: 1. Nominating Committee report: For Vice President 2003-04, succeeding to President 2005-06: Joan Hall, Dictionary of American Regional English. For Executive Committee 2003-06: Robert Bayley, Univ. of Texas, San Antonio. For Nominating Committee 2003-04: Bethany Dumas, Univ. of Tennessee. 2. Proposed amendments to Bylaws. 3. Other matters. Session 6: Regional Varieties, 9:15-11:15 a.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 17. "Urbanization vs. Regionalization in Utah Speech: A Reanalysis with Ramifications." David Bowie, Brigham Young Univ. 18. "The Regional Alignment of African American English in the Smoky Mountains." Becky Childs, Univ. of Georgia; Christine Mallinson, North Carolina State Univ. 19. "Prolegomena to Any Future Historical Dictionary of African American English." Michael Adams, Albright Coll. 20. "English Comes to Georgia, 1700-1750." Richard W. Bailey, Univ. of Michigan. "English Comes to Georgia, 1700-1750" Session 7: Gender and Culture, 11:30 a.m.-1:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 21. "Gender Differences in Narrative: The Case of Skydivers." Stephen E. Brown, Johns Hopkins Univ.; Ceil Lucas, Gallaudet Univ. 22. "Gender Variation in the Use of YES and NO in Tactile American Sign Language." Karen Petronio, Eastern Kentucky Univ.; Valerie Dively, Gallaudet Univ. 23. "Behind the Magic Screen: Cultural Values and Linguistic Prejudice." Patricia Cukor-Avila and Aubrey Hargis, Univ. of North Texas. Annual Luncheon, 1:15-2:45 p.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Please make reservations in advance with Executive Secretary Allan Metcalf. See Page 3. Speaker: ADS President Dennis Preston, "Where Are the Real Dialects of American English At Anyhow?" Special Session: Teaching Varieties of English in America, 3:00-4:30 p.m. Panel sponsored by the ADS Committee on Teaching Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton Chair: Anne Curzan. 24. "The Broadest Impacts of Teaching About Language." Kirk Hazen, West Virginia Univ. 25. "Teaching American Dialects: Bringing Scholarship to the Schools." Beverly Olson Flanigan, Ohio Univ. 26. "Varieties of English in America: The Creole Pieces of the Puzzle." Alicia Beckford Wassink, Univ. of Washington. That concludes the ADS annual meeting, but stick around for an LSA symposium on Sunday: Language Variation in the American South 9:00 a.m. to noon, Ballroom D, Atlanta Hilton Organizer: Walt Wolfram (NC SU) Participants: Sylvie Dubois (LA SU): The distinctiveness of Cajun Vernacular English: A dialect of English with its own history William A. Kretzschmar (U GA): Mapping Southern English Natalie Schilling-Estes (Georgetown U): Language change in "conservative" dialects: Evidence from Southern American enclave communities Erik R. Thomas (NC SU): Secrets of Southern vowel shifting Tracey Weldon (U SC): Copula variability in Gullah & AAVE Walt Wolfram (NC SU): Documenting Southern American English: A video presentation From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 4 18:54:23 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:54:23 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Susan Gilbert asks, >> When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? I'm not sure whether the question's intended to be taken literally, or you really mean that you object to the usage. If the former: I'd say, as one who both hears and uses the term, probably within the past year or so, possibly two at the outside. If the latter: "Google John Smith" just seems a shorter, more convenient way to say, "Go to the Google search engine and enter the phrase 'John Smith'." I find it interesting, BTW, that the term has *not* been turned into a generic meaning "use [any] search engine"; rather, it refers specifically to the trade-named Google facility. --Dodi Schultz From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:03:07 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:03:07 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <200211041354_MC3-1-18F2-F5EA@compuserve.com> Message-ID: I have been using and hearing the term for at least 2-3 years. Bethany From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:14:59 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:14:59 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? I don't use Google for Search in Google for . . . . , maybe because I don't use Google a lot. Does "google" have associated meanings because of similarly sounding words and therefore work as a verb abbreviation? "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > I have been using and hearing the term for at least 2-3 years. > > Bethany From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Nov 4 19:19:29 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:19:29 -0800 Subject: Dialect change Message-ID: I have asked several choral singers about this and they generally say the same thing-- 'sounds better without the /r/s'. I guess that is simply a matter of taste. I am not bothered by /r/s in songs at all. I do remember a song from the early 80's by a group called REO Speedwagon, "Keep on Loving You", in which the lead singer, Kevin Cronin, exagerated his /r/s. I think one reason the song was so catchy (it went to #1 in the US) was because of the exagerated /r/s-- foreveRRR. Anyone else remember that song? Fritz >>> jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM 11/04/02 06:06AM >>> I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as possible are two things which are stressed consistently. --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > issue I have been > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > recently received some > surprising evidence. > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > kind (that is not meant > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > hear sort of mainstream > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > frequently notice the singer > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > monophthonizing /ai/ > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > not noticed them. Yet, > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > interviewed, s/he uses a > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > sociolinguistic change that I would > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > this phenomenon to a > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > naive and r-pronouncing, > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > nothing new to them, > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > was a basic part of the > instruction. > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > knowledge? Any similar > experiences? > > Karl Krahnke > English Department > Colorado State University ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:22:57 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:22:57 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <3DC6C733.766F619B@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: >Are there regional preferences for search engines? I don't know. Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? I don't know. >I don't use Google for Search in Google for . >. . . , maybe because I don't use Google a lot. Does "google" have associated >meanings because of similarly sounding words and therefore work as a verb >abbreviation? I don't know, but I don't think so. I use the search engine because it usually works best for me. But I would probably use the verb regardless of which search engine I used - on the rare occasion when I might use another search engine for some reason. Or I might say, "I couldn't google it, so I used Yahoo." Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:27:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:27:02 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <000501c28420$0a6a3e30$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: At 8:34 AM -0800 11/4/02, Dave Wilton wrote: > > In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: >> >> > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? >> > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one >> shudders and exclaims >> : >> > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." >> >> "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age >> I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) >> has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should >> not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb >> ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >> your context better than a derivation from the name of the >> Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar >> in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely >> to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than >> to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. > >Having seen the same cartoon, I immediately took it to be from the search >engine, not googly eyes. "To google" is used not only to mean search a web >page, but to "google" a person is to do a quick background check on that >person, searching the web for references to them, not just to find their web >pages. Often you google someone to find their current address or place of >employment. In an earlier era the guy in the bar might have said, "someone >just stepped on my grave." I've never heard anyone use "to google" simply to >mean to look at someone. > FWIW, I saw the cartoon and immediately thought only of the search-engine context, probably for the reasons Dave mentions. And if the caps in Susan's query were in the original caption (I don't recall either way), that would clinch it. larry From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 4 19:38:03 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:38:03 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <168.1690f643.2af7d834@aol.com> Message-ID: >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. I think the Google search engine is named after the word "googol" meaning a huge number, but I think the name -- probably deliberately -- also resembles "googly eyes" and/or the verb "goggle" = "stare" (or "look"). As for those googly eyes, the exact etymology is not immediately clear to me, but Lighter's HDAS shows "goo-goo" (transitive verb) = "to cast amorous glances at" [which probably could have occurred as "google" too!]: e.g. (1901) "She put her Chin on his shoulder and Goo-Gooed him and he lost the Power of Speech." This reminds me of the German folk/drinking song beginning "Maedele, rueck, rueck, rueck an meine gruene Seite" [something like "Girl, shift, shift, shift against my green (i.e., friendly) side"] which has a stanza beginning "Maedele, guck, guck, guck in meine schwarzen Augen" [as I recall: "Girl, look, look, look into my black eyes"] ... maybe the goo-goo eyes were guck-guck eyes. With reference to another thread, the song seems to be about Knudelei = canoodling. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:50:52 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:50:52 -0500 Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:25 PM -0700 11/3/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >Re: kick the bucket, go to the bathroom, etc. > >The old-fashioned school term for these, particularly used in foreign >language teaching, is "idiom", or "idiomatic expression". No need to go >much further in search of a label, when this will do for most people >(except for linguists, who, as we agreed earlier in a lively exchange, are >not normal). > I agree that these are idioms; this is because their conventional meaning has changed (as I was saying yesterday, citing Morgan's argument on "go to the bathroom"). My point was that the conventionalization goes through stages, and the earlier stages don't correspond to idioms--although, as Searle pointed out in his 1975 "Indirect Speech Acts" paper, we may want to talk about idiomatic uses of language even when there are no idioms as such involved. Thus, compare Can you open the window? (conventionally used to indirectly request window-opening) Are you able to/Do you have the ability to open the window? (not so used) In Morgan's example, when you or more likely a political operative or long-distance service rep calls me and I pick up the phone and say "This is Larry Horn", no idiom is involved, but there is a rule of usage that requires this form (or one of its permissible variants, e.g. "Larry Horn speaking/here") and excludes, say, "Larry Horn is speaking/on the phone" or "Here is Larry Horn". One more example from Morgan: If a friend asks you for a loan and you reply "Do I look like a rich man?", there's no idiom involved here ("Do I look like a rich man?" isn't an idiom for "No" or even for "I can't/won't lend you money"), but there's a cultural convention within the community that this response in this context amounts to a refusal to lend the money. So referring to idioms is useful, but doesn't exhaust the phenomena we've been discussing. Conventions of usage, as well as conventions of meaning, are involved. larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 4 20:04:46 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:04:46 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Both a cousin who lives in Brooklyn and a daughter who lives in the Bronx know and use the term. It's standard practice to "google" a date [check the name for web-pages, contributions to news groups, &c.] To answer the question as to why it isn't "yahoo" a date, the answer is simply that Google absorbed "dejanews.com" which indexed usenet newsgroups. See the press release at http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/pressrelease48.html _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 20:18:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:18:25 -0500 Subject: cheese out In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434150@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM -0600 11/3/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This American Life_ >radio program. I don't remember it verbatim but it was something >like: >"That cheeses me out." >The reference was to patriotic music and the speaker's meaning was >that she found it cheesy. The speaker was a Texan but I doubt this >is a regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the pattern >established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', which I think we >discussed some months ago. Looking at a few "cheese(s) me out" from the web, it doesn't seem as though "cheesy" is involved. Instead, it's looks more like a blend of "cheese off" with the "X out" pattern. There are a (larger) bunch of "X pisses me out" that seem identical. (I'm also curious about where the "cheese" in "cheese off" comes from. Haven't checked RHHDAS yet.) Larry From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Nov 4 20:20:03 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:20:03 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: > To answer the question as to why it isn't "yahoo" a date, > the answer is simply that Google absorbed "dejanews.com" > which indexed usenet newsgroups. I would suggest that the reason people don't say "to yahoo someone" is because Google has been the best free search engine available for a while now. (indeed, translators use it as a virtual dictionary to check terms bilingually for prevalence of usage--no other search engine returns as many hits). Furthermore, not only do savvy internet users know that Yahoo functions more as a directory than a search engine per se, but my impression is that Yahoo is considered so, well, 20th Century! Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From simon at IPFW.EDU Mon Nov 4 20:30:04 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:30:04 -0500 Subject: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: ADS at the MMLA, Marriott City Center, Minneapolis MN Dear Scholars, Students, etc. of Language Structure, Meaning, Use, Variation, Change and So On, Please join us this Saturday, Nov. 9, 2002, Sat., 4:00-5:30 p.m., in Deer Lake 108, of the Minneapolis Marriot City Center for what promises to be an exciting set of presentations. (Afterward, I am treating everyone for a libation of choice). The papers: Language Variation and Change in the Urban Midwest: The Case of St. Louis, Missouri Thomas E. Murray Kansas State University Michigan shop talk: Is a 'grievance' taken more seriously than a 'concern'? Jan Bernsten University of Michigan - Flint Portable community: the linguistic and psychological reality of Midwestern Pennsylvania German Steven Hartman Keiser Marquette University A Critical Approach to Discourse Variation Kathyrn Remlinger Grand Valley State University beth lee simon, midwest regional secretary, ADS associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 21:35:19 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:35:19 -0800 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: <200211020207_MC3-1-18B9-6234@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Woops. No, I didn't mean to suggest that "ex to grind" should be in a dictionary. My query went to the existence of such word-play in any lexical sources other than the obvious "word fun" books that abound. Something like "ex to grind" would carry with it the obvious association with _ex_ and serve as another attestation--should one be needed. That is, puns confirm the currency of their targets, and I was wondering whether, given that fact, they ever serve / have ever served as entry-worthy material. Dodi spoke to that question with her third sentence, below. PR > Peter Richardson suggests that the above phrase should be in a dictionary. > > Why? It's not a new meaning, just a play on words. I've never heard of > dictionaries' including wordplay. > > --Dodi Schultz > From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 21:41:54 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:41:54 -0800 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cushclamocree! Somebody else remembers Barnaby and Mr. O'Malley! (I recall the Little Men's..., but can't confirm the "Gnomes, Elves" part of it.) PR On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > # I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching > #Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. > > I don't know the date, but in Crockett Johnson's comic strip "Barnaby", > ca. WW2 and probably a bit earlier, the leprechaun (or something > similar) Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's > Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it > definitely ends with the target phrase. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Mon Nov 4 22:49:30 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:49:30 -0500 Subject: dialectology in grad schools? Message-ID: A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 4 22:52:46 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:52:46 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: To James Landau (et al.): Next time you need to relay a URL that runs to a couple of hundred characters--or even half that--try: http://makeashorterlink.com/ or http://tinyurl.com --DS From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 23:17:15 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:17:15 -0800 Subject: American Sign Language minor? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, We're considering the introduction of a minor in American Sign Language and would be grateful for any information about other such programs. Thanks very much in advance. Cordially, Peter Richardson Linfield College From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Nov 5 00:05:50 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 16:05:50 -0800 Subject: American Sign Language minor? Message-ID: [cc:] Peter Richardson wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > We're considering the introduction of a minor in American Sign Language > and would be grateful for any information about other such programs. > Thanks very much in advance. > > Cordially, > > Peter Richardson > Linfield College University of Rochester East Carolina Univ. College of St.Catherine University of New Hampshire - Manchester More ... search: "American Sign Language" minor Sal -- 3000+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:22:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:22:10 -0500 Subject: Cappuccino & Zucchini (Baedeker, 1893) Message-ID: ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by K. Baedeker Second Part--Central Italy and ROme Eleventh Revised Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1893 Pg. XVIII: _Zucchini_, gherkins. Pg. XIX: _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before being served (30-50c.; _cappuccino_, or small cup, cheaper); or _caffe e latte_, _i.e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. (This is about three years earlier than I'd spotted these items in an 1896 edition. I didn't see them in an 1891 edition. I'm using the edition in Columbia University's Avery Library, if anyone wants to check. The NYPL and the LOC didn't have 1893--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:45:28 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:45:28 -0500 Subject: Windy City (1883) Message-ID: It's even earlier! This is from American Periodical Series online (it's also on microfilm, if you want to check the old way), a new electronic database from ProQuest, available here at Columbia University (but not at that cheapskate NYU Bobst Library). 20 October 1883, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 11: It was here that the late lamented Hulbert, president of the Chicagos, saw him and signed him for the Windy City club, where he has been playing ever since.--_Cincinnati Enquirer._ 14 June 1884, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 11: Several members of the Chicago team indulged in stimulants to an excess, and Al Spaulding let out his indignation in a letter to Babe Anson the other day. In it he says he is tired of making excuses for the team's poor showing, and directs Anson to assess a heavy fine on any player for the slightest infraction of a rule. The Windy City crew will now have to conduct themselves very straight, or pay for their fa(illegible--ed.) in the shape of fines.--_Philadelphia Item._ There's also this: 17 July 1880, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 7: The little village of Degraff, Ohio, is situated in the beautiful valley of the Miami, tne miles west of Bellefontaine, and while it only has a population a little less than one thousand, according to the veracious census enumerator, it certainly can develop enough pure cussedness within its limits to entitle it to be classed as the little "Windy City," a name not inappropriate, as every now and then a cyclone or tornado strikes and almost annihilates it. The New York Sun Charles A. Dana 1893 Columbian Exposition myth should be long dead now, but no, you gotta check this thing every day... 11/03/2002 The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel All 1H Winter winds don't chill fest fever By SUSAN BLINKHORN Special to the Journal Sentinel Sunday, November 3, 2002 Windy City, indeed. When old man winter appears in Chicago, the gusts that blow off Lake Michigan and through the city's skyscraper canyons are enough to knock the Marshall Field's shopping bag right out of your hand. Windy as it may be, however, Chicago's infamous moniker has nothing to do with the weather (Milwaukee, on average, has higher wind speeds) and everything to do with the city's passion for hosting great parties. Legend has it that back in 1893, the city's lobbying efforts to host the World's Fair were so verbose and long- winded that the New York City press dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." (...) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:47:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:47:47 EST Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... Message-ID: My daughter has this response: The original reason why I wanted to know was because I used a phrase in Japanese, "daisuki na hon", which I translated as my favorite book. Someone e-mailed me and said that I was wrong, that what I said translated as "much-loved book" and the real 'favorite book' translation would be "ichiban na suki hon" (which literally means 'first-loved book'). I wanted to show that the literal translation became sort of a colloquial expression... The J. Landau family From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 01:00:18 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:00:18 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I have no doubt that the cartoon referred to the use of the Google search engine to gather information. The earliest reference I've seen is from The Globe and Mail, Mar. 18, 2000: >>I've just spent an afternoon Googling around the net (www.google.dom, a splendid search engine) . . . .<< Unrelated full articles on Googling, meaning specifically the use of Google to gather information on potential romantic partners, were published in the New York Observer and The Statesman on January 15, 2001. Google asserts that its name is a play on the word googol. That may be true in part, but I believe it's also based on the existing verb "google" (not in OED), which I take to be a variation on the verb "goggle" (to stare with wide and bulging eyes). The earliest I've seen is in the Los Angeles Times, June 19, 1986: >>Here, upstairs in Bea Dollar's little office, baby Sean is googling and his teen-age mom is asking if she can get married.<< John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Susan Gilbert [mailto:susandgilbert at MSN.COM] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Being Googled When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 01:38:22 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:38:22 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Google asserts that its name is a play on the word > googol. That may be true in part, but I believe it's also > based on the existing verb "google" (not in OED), which I > take to be a variation on the verb "goggle" (to stare with > wide and bulging eyes). The earliest I've seen is in the Los > Angeles Times, June 19, 1986: >>Here, upstairs in Bea > Dollar's little office, baby Sean is googling and his > teen-age mom is asking if she can get married.<< The verb "google" meaning to stare may date to the 80s, but presumably Messrs. Page and Brin know why they chose the name for their company and search engine. If they say it's from the mathematical term, who are we to argue? And the use to mean conduct a search on the web is most definitely from the name of the search engine, not from a fairly obscure slang verb. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 01:51:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:51:33 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) Message-ID: I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See ADS-L archives.) 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: _AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ _Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the professional wrestlers a warm argument. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 5 01:09:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:09:06 -0500 Subject: Windy City (1883) In-Reply-To: <08770F32.5E37CE34.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:45 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The New York Sun Charles A. Dana 1893 Columbian Exposition myth >should be long dead now, but no, you gotta check this thing every >day... > > >11/03/2002 >The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel > >Winter winds don't chill fest fever >By SUSAN BLINKHORN Special to the Journal Sentinel > > >Sunday, November 3, 2002 >Windy City, indeed. When old man winter appears in Chicago, the >gusts that blow off Lake Michigan and through the city's skyscraper >canyons are enough to knock the Marshall Field's shopping bag right >out of your hand. > >Windy as it may be, however, Chicago's infamous moniker has nothing >to do with the weather (Milwaukee, on average, has higher wind >speeds) and everything to do with the city's passion for hosting >great parties. Legend has it that back in 1893, the city's lobbying >efforts to host the World's Fair were so verbose and long- winded >that the New York City press dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." >(...) Well, even though their first and second parts of their version of "Windy City" are both false, they do say "legend has it" about the latter. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 03:09:41 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:09:41 EST Subject: dialectology in grad schools? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:55:40 PM, nerd_core at EXCITE.COM writes: << A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua >> Anymore, is there is a difference between the study of dialectology and the study of sociolinguistics. Even the "old line" dialect geographers (e.g., Raven McDavid, Harold Allen) recognized that there were social dimensions to linguistic variation (hence the Type IA, IB, II, III etc. speakers). All that has happened in the last 30 years can really be looked upon as an extension of their original insights. If the question is, Do people today study dialect apart from society, I think the answer is pretty much "no"! From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 5 03:59:51 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:59:51 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Lesa Dill asks, >> Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it >> "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? In answer to your first question: Not to my knowledge. I have found, as have most of my friends and colleagues (who are not concentrated in any particular geographical area), that Google is simply superior to the others. Personally, I've reaffirmed that each time I've done a comparative test (which I do whenever I see another search engine recommended). In answer to your second question: See the answer to the first question. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 04:37:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:37:41 -0500 Subject: Iced Tea & Iced Coffee (Sat. Eve. Post, 1857) Message-ID: "Legend has it" that iced tea was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair. These two long, excellent notes were found on the American Periodical Series online. I apologize in advance for the typing mistakes. 14 February 1857, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 2: _TEA AS A SUMMER DRINK._ Frederick Sala, writing from Russia to Dickens's Household Words, mentions that on a table near him stands "a largish tumbler filled with a steaming liquid of a golden color in which floats a thin slice of lemon. It is TEA: the most delicious, the most soothing, the most thirst-allaying drink you can have in summertime, and in Russia." Tea, flavored with the slice of lemon, we have never tried; neither are we prepared to recommend as a summer beverage tea steaming hot, as Sala does. But tea made strong, (as _we_ like it--or as strong as you like it,) well-sweetened, with good milk or better cream in it in sufficient quantity to give it a dark yellow color, and the whole mixture cooled in an ice-chest to the temperature of ice-water, is "the most delicious, the most soothing, the most thirst allaying drink" we have ever treated ourselves or friends to. We know of nothing to compare with it for deliciousness or refreshment. It cheers, but not inebriates. Its stimulus is gentle; make a note of this now, and when the summer fervor visits you, and you feel, with Sydney Smith, that for the sake of coolness you could get out of your flesh and sit in your bones, try our specific of ice-cold tea. Juleps, cobblers and such things, sink to utter insignificance beside it. They are only temporarily refreshing, and fire the blood after the five minutes following their imbibition. Soda is folly; it inflates one painfully with carbonic gas, and adds to the discomfort heat produces. Ice-water is unsatisfying; you drink till you feel water-logged, and derive no benefit. Ice-cream is the only preparation fit to be mentioned with out cold tea. Some of our restaurant and saloon keepers would do well to keep this mixture among their summer refreshments. We feel sure that it would pay them pecuniarily to do so. The beverage only needs to be known to be popular. 29 August 1857, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 2: TEA AS A SUMMER DRINK.--A little editorial of ours with the above caption has been going the rounds of the city and country press without credit. Of course, the latter circumstance is, as Toots would say, of no consequence, but one of the country papers prints the article with the concluding remark, "So says Dickens," which induces us to say that Dickens never said anything ofthe kind, but that ours is the voice that sounded the praise of iced tea. And, by the way, let us remark that iced coffee, with sugar and cream, is a sumemr beverage that goes to the exhausted spot most effectually. We wonder that some of our saloon keepers don't advertise those delightful drinks "which cheer but not inebriate," among their sodas and water ices and creams, all of which are inferior to them both in refreshment and sustaining power. But improvement, as Burke said of confidence, is a plant of slow growth, and we suppose it will be a century before the public finds out what luxuries iced tea and coffee are in the summer solstice. (A century? A prophetic little food item from the SATURDAY EVENING POST--ed.) From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Nov 5 04:46:26 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:46:26 -0700 Subject: "raspberry" < raspberry tart ? : Cockney rhyming slang? Message-ID: A colleague of mine sent this inquiry, followed by a response from another colleague. Does anyone have any corroborating or disconfirming evidence? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I recently came across an etymology, perhaps in a column by William Safire, that I hope you can corroborate or explode. It concerns the word "raspberry," as in "Some members of the audience were rude enough to give the speaker the raspberry." A dictionary definition of the word used in this sense: "a derisive or contemptuous sound made by vibrating the extended tongue and the lips while exhaling." I think we all know what it sounds like. The claimed etymology: that it comes from Cockney rhyming slang and that its full form is "raspberry tart." The rhyme, I assume, is with "fart." E.g., "Someone made a Godawful smelly raspberry tart." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The response from another colleague was as follows: >The etymology is not at all clear. The OED on-line, >def. 4., cautiously states "[App. an ellipt. use of raspberry tart >(b) below.]," without further explanation, but the editors seem not entirely >confident in the derivation. They equate it with "Bronx cheer." There seem >to be in the examples in 4a. and 4b. two strikingly different meanings. One, >documented as early as 1890), is the sound that could have been the source >of the proposed Cockney slang term (4a.). The other a more generalized >sense, which appears first in a Wodehouse novel in 1920, indicates rebuke or >disapproval (4b.). In some of the quotations in 4b. any suggestion of the >sense in 4a. would violate decorum. (I can't imagine Jeeves giving a Bronx >cheer in any circumstances.) Without direct testimony as to the origin of >the sense, it is hard to say what the truth is. The attribution to rhyming >slang could be a popular etymology, plausible but undocumented, created to >fill a vacuum. > >The reportedly widespread use in Glasgow in 1912 makes me wonder whether the >source isn't other than Cockney slang, which is easy to invoke when no other >explanation is apparent. But why "_raspberry_ tart"? Why not apple tart or >gooseberry tart or bilberry tart or strawberry tart or the like? The rhyme >doesn't explain the raspberry part, does it? The only evidence the OED gives >is late: "1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolch. i. 9 Breaking wind was, >at one time, by the process of rhyming slang, known as a 'raspberry tart'." >Maybe the Opies give more proof in the work cited, but the evidence for >their statement is not in the OED. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The originator of the query posted another finding that the term also occurred in an 1892 poem, where the meaning was clearly "heart", which would also fit with rhyming slang. "Then I sallied forth with careless air, and contented raspberry tart." Can anyone improve on this information? Rudy From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Nov 5 06:11:01 2002 From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:11:01 -0700 Subject: More on dialect and song Message-ID: Thanks to all who replied to my question about rhotacism in song. If only my opera singer mother had lived a little longer I would have had that information long ago. Unfortunately, what I inherited was a phobia towards singing. The r-stuff makes good sense, but I wonder a bit about the monopthongization, especially of /ai/. I can't hear in my own head the choir in my old church singing, "A mahhty fawtress is ah God." (Excuse the crude representation.) The "flavor" of the popular song phonology I hear is southern US, where, of course, the two phonetic phenomena stereotypically (and otherwise) occur. I have interpreted it as a "ruralization" of pop song. Heard an old, old recording of Bing Crosby on "Fresh Air" yesterday and did not hear it there. I guess I am just wondering of there is some generalized shift in the sociolinguistics of pop song in addition to the fact that /Vr/ is hard to sing. Karl Krahnke English Department Colorado State University From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 5 06:32:54 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:32:54 -0500 Subject: "raspberry" < raspberry tart ? : Cockney rhyming slang? Message-ID: Rudy, it's included in Mathews' *Dictionary of Americanisms* (1951) as razz or razzberry, a sound indicative of disapproval or derision. (NOT listed under "raspberry.") M-W II (1934) has it as both raspberry (orig. E. slang) and razz (US). *The City In Slang* (Allen, 1993) says that raspberry's a synonym for Bronx cheer, "classically made by expulsing air through flaccid lips to produce a very vulgar fluttering sound." No tarts with any of the above. --DS From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 06:53:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:53:23 -0500 Subject: Razzberry (1920) Message-ID: Nobody remembers that I recently searched for both "Razzberry" and "Bronx Cheer" in NEW YORK TIMES full text? A month or two ago, and EVERYBODY forgets? I'd posted "razzberry" from 1921, but here's a year earlier from the American Periodical Series online database. April 1920, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg._011 (??): _Omnipotent Tradition_ College Tale With a Moral (...) "But Dick," hinted the man holding Bob's arms, "the kid is a game and a clean fighter. Let's not be too hard on him." "Razzberry," roared the husky sophomore with the numeral sweater, who still retained a tenacious grip upon Nick's coat collar, "we've got to show these youths that rules are rules." From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 08:09:29 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 00:09:29 -0800 Subject: Razzberry (1920) In-Reply-To: <0377EBC1.4908A44E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Nobody remembers that I recently searched for both > "Razzberry" and "Bronx Cheer" in NEW YORK TIMES full text? A > month or two ago, and EVERYBODY forgets? > I'd posted "razzberry" from 1921, but here's a year > earlier from the American Periodical Series online database. > > > April 1920, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg._011 (??): > > _Omnipotent Tradition_ > College Tale With a Moral > (...) > "But Dick," hinted the man holding Bob's arms, "the kid is > a game and a clean fighter. Let's not be too hard on him." > "Razzberry," roared the husky sophomore with the numeral > sweater, who still retained a tenacious grip upon Nick's coat > collar, "we've got to show these youths that rules are rules." Mathews has "razzberry" from 1918, and the sense is definitely the Bronx Cheer sound rather than an euphemistic expletive: "The razzberry was deafening, and he had an omelet hung on his ear." _Liberty_, 11 Aug 1918 (1928). Still not as old as the 1890 "raspberry" in the OED though. From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Nov 5 08:24:04 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:24:04 +0100 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. Isn't an allusion to the verb "ogle" implied? Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Tue Nov 5 10:07:55 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:07:55 -0000 Subject: Razz/Raspberry Message-ID: >Still not as old as the 1890 "raspberry" in the OED though. The OED is in fact around a decade late in its 'raspberry' cite; had they chosen to 'borrow' from Farmer and Henley's 'Slang & Its Analogues', rather than Barrere and Leland's 'Slang, Jargon & Cant' (where cites are irritatingly undated) they could have noted the original line dates to 'c.1880'. UK use is definitely rooted in rhyming slang; whether it then crossed the Atlantic or whether razz(berry) developed independently/coincidentally I cannot say. Nor do I know whether the note in the original cite (published in the horse-racing magazine The Sporting Times - better known as 'The Pink 'Un' and not wholly dissimilar to the National Police Gazette), which explains that when not used derisively the sound was 'employed for the purpose of testing horseflesh', has any special relevance. Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Nov 5 12:29:14 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:29:14 -0500 Subject: dialectology in grad schools? In-Reply-To: <1a0.b4507b4.2af89075@aol.com> Message-ID: That said, however, some sociolinguistics programs have emphasized region more than others. Georgia, NCState, Penn, MSU, and Toronto are somewhat more invested in region (although by no means exclusively) than, say, Stanford. This also overlooks programs where there are well-known practitioners who can very ably train people (e.g., Bill Kretzschmar at Georgia) although the institution or program itself may not focus on region. In general, however, I agree with Ron that "region" (dialect in the older sense) is now best seen as one of the variables in the search for a socially and linguistically grounded account of language structure, variation, and change. dInIs In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:55:40 PM, nerd_core at EXCITE.COM writes: << A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua >> Anymore, is there is a difference between the study of dialectology and the study of sociolinguistics. Even the "old line" dialect geographers (e.g., Raven McDavid, Harold Allen) recognized that there were social dimensions to linguistic variation (hence the Type IA, IB, II, III etc. speakers). All that has happened in the last 30 years can really be looked upon as an extension of their original insights. If the question is, Do people today study dialect apart from society, I think the answer is pretty much "no"! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 5 13:57:01 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:57:01 -0500 Subject: gin up Message-ID: I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Nov 5 14:26:32 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:26:32 -0500 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I am familiar with/have been known to used "cheese out" as synonymous with "flake out" or "flake". As in: X couldn't make it. I am not sure if he's sick or if he's cheesing out [or flaking out, or flaking] on us. Maybe it was just a case of in-group slang among my rather odd bunch of friends in State College PA in the late 80s/early 90s. We all thought that cheese was funny stuff back then.... From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 5 14:46:14 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: gin up In-Reply-To: <84010.3245475421@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a >WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this >meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is >this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? Something like this was discussed here in March 2001 (topic "gen up"). I expressed myself at excessive length on 6 March 2001. I think it's an attempt to sound folksy or "hip". My best guess is that he's basically/etymologically referring to stimulating a horse by putting ginger in its rectum. There is confusion perhaps with another verb "gin" which is probably from "engineer" or so. The distinction in principle would be made by experimentally replacing "gin up" with (1) "stimulate" or "enliven" (implying "gin[ger] up") and with (2) "prepare" or "marshal" (implying something like "[en]gin[eer]" or perhaps "gen[erate]"). At least that's my naive impression. -- Doug Wilson From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Tue Nov 5 15:05:21 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:05:21 -0500 Subject: google verb. Message-ID: Actually, around the same time I started hearing google used as a verb, I heard e-bay used the same way. As in, "I'm going to get my geek on and e-bay some stuff." -Joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 16:07:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:07:15 EST Subject: Cotton Candy (1905) Message-ID: COTTON CANDY OED & M-W have 1926. I'd posted only a touch earlier. From the American Periodical Series online. 21 January 1905, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 47: Inquiry No. 6401. For manufacture of the electric candy machine known as :Fairy Floss" or "Cotton Candy." 14 October 1905, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 310: Ad for "Cotton Candy Machine Co." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- APS & ELECTRONIC DATABASE MISC. Columbia Univerisyt has the WALL STREET JOURNAL on its ProQuest subscription, but not the WASHINGTON POST. I'd like to see the WP. Surely, there's an early "martini" there? The American Periodical Series online looks like it's far from complete. Some of the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE items are mis-dated (1804?). PUCK is not there at all. More will probably be added in a few months. PUCK, for example, probably will have "raspberry/razzberry." THE REAL McCOY--From the boxer Kid McCoy? I was surprised when the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE--a leading boxing magazine--didn't have anything. The first cite here? How about December 1933, in H. T. Webster's famous FORUM & CENTURY article on "Slanguage." I'M FROM MISSOURI, SHOW ME--Nothing earlier than what I'd found. 21 April 1900, A JOURNAL OF OUTDOOR LIFE, TRAVEL, NATURE STUDY, SHOOTING, FISHING, YACHTING, pg. 309: There is an old saying about the man from Missouri, who said: "It may be so, but you've got to show me." TUNA--Lots of wonderful citations from nature/fishing publications, but all cites are later than 1881. CHILI CON CARNE--Nothing before 1857 (the book is cited several times). I typed in just "carne" and also "chile." ENCHILADA--Nothing early here. TACO--Nothing at all. Hey, OUT WEST magazine! "Taco," fer cryin' out loud! THe full text LOS ANGELES TIMES is my next best hope. JAMBALAYA--The AMERICAN AGRICULTURALIST, May 1849, pg. 161, shows up in citation form. THis word is spelled in different ways, so I also searched for good old "gumbo." UNCLE SAM--First citation here is 1817. GOTHAM--Lots of interesting publications here for Washington Irving to steal the idea from, and he "borrowed" everything. Full text of much of the pre-1830 material is not available yet, although citations are given. For example, a search of "sell like hotcakes" turned up the KNICKERBOCKER MAGAZINE. Search capability isn't there yet (you have to go to the microfilm reels with your cite), but I know that's our first hit for "hotcakes." THE BIG APPLE--FWIW. June 1871, SCRIBNER'S MONTHLY, pg. 307: The big apple, the topmost cake, always belonged, I thought, to my neighbor--who ever manifested a similar conviction. O.T. Not that it matters, but gotta go vote!...I hope David Shulman likes these APS "Steve Brodie" cites. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Nov 5 16:46:59 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:46:59 -0500 Subject: gin up In-Reply-To: <84010.3245475421@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: David Bergdahl writes: >I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a >WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this >meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is >this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? ~~~~~~ This expression occurred several times in NPR's morning news today, regarding W's last-minute campaigning. I hear it as "gen up" and translate it as "generate increase" in supposedly already existing support. A. Murie From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Nov 5 18:29:44 2002 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: britpop-ameripop and vice versa Message-ID: Hi Folks: Don't forget that Sinatra's singing voice was in a different accent than his speaking voice; most argue he "standardized" (in some cases probably hyper-corrected) his New Jersey-speak for singing. And Matt Monro sounded like Sinatra when he sang, but spoke in an impenetrable cockney. (Just to prove that this phenomenon didn't start with the Brits imitating Muddy Waters)! Cheers! Peter Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com Visit us online at http://www.Merriam-Webster.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 5 19:56:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:56:30 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? # #I don't know. How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? "Yahoo" already exists in everyday English. "Dog pile" is meaningful, although I'm pretty sure the connotation that I have for it is not the one the creators intended! ("Watch your step, there's a dog pile!") "Yahoo! John Smith", especially with that dratted exclamation mark, reads as = 'hurray for J.S.'. "Google", OTOH, is novel to most speakers. Yes, I know about Barney Google, and I know about the song, but I'd bet a cookie (the edible kind) that to the great majority of English-speakers who know the word, the first meaning that comes to mind is the search engine. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 20:01:04 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:01:04 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I don't think we're obligated to accept the creators' word for a term's origin if we have reason to believe that their account is inaccurate or incomplete. Page and Brin may have thought that acknowledging "google" as a source for their name would imply derivation from the Barney Google comic strip and song. I do agree that most current uses of "Googling" refer to the search engine, not the pre-existing verb (whose status as slang seems doubtful to me). I thought the older word was worth recording, though. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dave Wilton [mailto:dave at WILTON.NET] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Being Googled The verb "google" meaning to stare may date to the 80s, but presumably Messrs. Page and Brin know why they chose the name for their company and search engine. If they say it's from the mathematical term, who are we to argue? And the use to mean conduct a search on the web is most definitely from the name of the search engine, not from a fairly obscure slang verb. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 21:14:49 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:14:49 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't think we're obligated to accept the creators' > word for a term's origin if we have reason to believe that > their account is inaccurate or incomplete. Page and Brin may > have thought that acknowledging "google" as a source for > their name would imply derivation from the Barney Google > comic strip and song. I agree that we shouldn't accept all such tales uncritically, but in this case I don't see any compelling reason to doubt Page and Brin (the founders of Google, Inc.). The use of "google" as a slang verb is pretty obscure--it's not in any slang dictionary that I'm aware of. If this were a more common slang term, you might be on to something. But given the term's rarity, I would go along with their contention that it is an independent coinage based on the mathematical term. > I do agree that most current uses of "Googling" refer > to the search engine, not the pre-existing verb (whose status > as slang seems doubtful to me). I thought the older word was > worth recording, though. Yes, it's definitely worth knowing about. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 22:07:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: OED and M-W have 1885 for "Dutch Treat." This is 1885, but indicates 1861. From American Periodical Series online--also on Making of America? August 1885, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE, "A Virginia girl in the first year of the war," pg. 606: Already the pinch of war was felt in the commissariat; and we had recourse occassionally to a contribution supper, or "Dutch treat," when the guests brough branded peaches, boxes of sardines, French prunes, and bags of biscuit, while the hosts contributed only a roast turkey or a ham, with knives and forks. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 5 22:38:01 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:38:01 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: from http://www.wfyes.co.uk/prod04.htm (the Youth Enquiry Service): 'Gen up on' is an information tape which covers five topics identified by a group of young people. The topics covered are: drugs, alcohol, the police, homelessness and money. The young people involved interviewed various experts such as the Chief Constable for Fife and the manager of a local housing project. They put the experts in the 'hot seat' to ascertain the information they required. On completion of the interviews, the young people gathered all the information and headed for the studios to edit and produce the information tape. The final product is a young people friendly, easy to listen to audio tape full of relevant information for young people and is available from the YES. Gen up on... costs just £4 plus £3 _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 5 23:07:46 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:07:46 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: from the website of Telephone Bar & Grill, 149 Second St, NY: http//www.telebar.com/britspeak.html "Gen means information. If you have the gen then you know what is going on. Also, to 'gen up' is to research a subject or to get some information about something." [ENTRIES AND DEFINITIONS BY MIKE ETHERINGTON FROM HIS SMASHING BOOK, THE VERY BEST OF BRITISH: THE AMERICAN'S GUIDE TO SPEAKING BRITISH] However, The Las Vegas Review Journal [online edition] for July 30, 2002 has this in an editorial: "Just months removed from placing tariffs on steel imports to protect a failing domestic industry and gin up a few votes in the Rust Belt, President Bush's commitment to free trade merits scrutiny." >From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen up something. The sense of "research" may come naturally out of this usage; the American usage may just be a ten/tin homophony at play. Or it may be independently derived from the "gin" of cotton gin--the original "engine." An MSNBC article by Brock N. Meeks for 7/30/01 has "You don't have to be a science fiction or mystery writer to gin up some nightmare scenarios about how these new intrusions into our lives can be abused by law enforcement officials." Google searches reveal a number of news and entertainment sources using the "gin up" spelling. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 23:26:45 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:26:45 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: "Gin up," meaning to make or to put together, was a common informal expression in southcentral Kentucky. The association with politics seems to go back a few years: >> "We really want to gin up enough pressure so that the president will take the lead," said a House leadership aide.<< Wall St. Journal, Jan. 2, 1984. I note that the OED has "to gin her up," meaning to work things up, to make things 'hum', to work hard, from 1887. John Baker From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 6 00:55:15 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:55:15 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) In-Reply-To: <660D824E.37F86C57.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:51 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I >discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See >ADS-L archives.) > > 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: > >_AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ >_Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ > Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a >very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a >mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs >of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., >one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an >active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the >professional wrestlers a warm argument. Here's another version or two, courtesy of http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/97/11/index4a.html (the site has a lovely picture of the drink, which does indeed like a Jacqueminot rose--or so I imagine). I was wondering if there was any relation to Rose's Lime Juice, but as far as I can tell there isn't. Larry ======================== This cocktail gives us a twinge at the back of the tongue before smoothly sliding down the gullet, swathed in sweetness. It's the mix of pain and delight in the Jack Rose that we just can't say no to. Mixed with 1 1/2 ounces applejack and an ounce lime juice (or 1/2 an ounce lemon juice), followed by half an ounce grenadine, the Jack Rose has the tang of Jersey Lightning and the sappy charm of grenadine. The lime is the bridge from one to the other. But it's not the Jack Rose's deep-laid taste, only hinting at apple, that attracts imbibers. Instead, it's the drink's hue - not quite red, not quite pink - that draws us to the cocktail. We had just assumed the Jack Rose was named for its color. After all, Albert S. Crockett, author of the 1934 Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar, wrote that the Jack Rose, or Jacque Rose, was "the exact shade of a Jacqueminot rose, when properly concocted." The rose, in turn, is named after French general Jean-François Jacqueminot, who endured from 1787 until 1865. Some suggest the drink was named after the general, but we're certain that can't be: The French would never allow a drink mixed with the Yankee cousin of their fine apple brandy, Calvados, to be tied to their language. Our efforts to find a more believable christening of the Jack Rose took us to the Colts Neck Inn of Colts Neck, New Jersey: "The great, great grandpa of the Laird family, the restaurant's first owner and the only distiller left making applejack, invented it," says Nelson Fastige, a Colts Neck bartender for the last 14 years. "His name was Jack, and the drink was a reddish pink color, like the rose." A modest enough tale that almost inspired us to stop our search. But not having put in a good day's work, we decided to call the Laird family in Scobeyville, New Jersey. "The Jack Rose cocktail was not invented at the Colts Neck Inn as some believe. Nor was it created by a Laird family ancestor," Lisa Laird-Dunn, the Laird & Company's VP and a member of the family's ninth generation, told us. "One of the more colorful myths is in fact truth, not fiction.... During the late 1800s, there was a gentleman by the name of Jack Rose, from New York City. He was regarded as somewhat of a shady character who made his living in and around City Hall and the New York courts. Mr. Rose's favorite beverage was applejack, and he consumed it mixed with lemon juice and grenadine. He became known for this cocktail, thus it was dubbed the Jack Rose." We certainly like the idea of a gangster rogue, instead of a presumably well-behaved and well-aged gentleman, sipping the Jack Rose. So we called it a day and tried to find an establishment that would serve us a round of Jack Roses. But alas, no luck. If they weren't trying to swap Calvados for applejack, then they were set on serving the cocktail with apple brandy - all while charging us an extra 50 cents per drink. We'll actually take these substitutes in a pinch, but attest the Jack Rose is far from the same without that applejack burn. Besides, if we're going to sip apple brandy, we'd rather have it straight. Occasionally, to coax the mixer into meeting our demands, we'll quote from Ms. Laird-Dunn: "The drink became very popular in the early 1900s and remained so after the repeal of Prohibition. There wasn't a restaurant in New York City that did not serve the Jack Rose." To which most bartenders reply that we ought to consider a move. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 01:12:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:12:56 EST Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: In a message dated 11/05/2002 6:08:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET writes: > From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the > next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen > up something. Dubious. If you want to claim an origin in computerspeak, then try the word "sysgen", a shorting of "system generation" which means to set up all the software needed to create the operating system on a computer. The first operating systems appeared in the 1950's, before the advent of the "second generation" computers, so it is a reasonable conjecture that the word "sysgen" antedates the phrase "nth generation computer" or "next generation computer/software". I don't have a date for "sysggen"---it's not in OED---but I recall hearing it from 1966 when I first starting working as a programmer. I have a suspicion that "sysgen" was invented by IBM which in the 1960's gloried in marching to their own drummer on computer terminology. James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 01:18:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:18:22 -0500 Subject: Jambalaya (1849) Message-ID: This smashes the 1870s citation in DARE on this important food term, which I will have to solve without help of the online NEW ORLEANS PICAYUNE. The American Periodical Series online provided the cite, but I had to go to the reels to check it. Imagine when LIFE and PUCK get added! May 1849, THE AMERICAN AGRICULTURALIST (APS II, reel 365), pg. 161, col. 1: _Louisiana Muffin Bread._--Take two pints of flour and one and a half of sifted corn meal, two spoonfuls of butter, one spoonful of yeast, and two eggs, and mix and bake for breakfast. It is good. _Hopping Johnny_ (jambalaya).--Take a dressed chicken, or full-grown fowl, if not old, and cut all the flesh into small pieces, with a sharp knife. Put this into an iron pot, with a large spoonful of butter and one onion chopped fine; sttep and stir it till it is brown; then add water enough to cover it, and put in some parsley, spices, and red pepper pods, chopped fine, and let it boil till you think it is barely done, taking care to stir it often, so as not to burn it; then stir in as much rice, when cooked, as will absorb all the water; stir and boil it a minute or so, andthen let it stand and simmer until the rice is cooked, and you will have a most delicious dish of palatable, digestible food. _Something for the Children._--Make a dish of molasses candy, and, while it is hot, pour it out upon a deep plate, and stir in the meats of pecans, hickory nuts, hazle nuts, or peanuts, just as thick as you can stir them in, and then let it cool. Be careful and not eat too much of it, for it is very rich. It is a very nice dish for evening parties of the dear little girls and boys; and I have known some "big children" to like it pretty well. SOLON ROBINSON. _Alabama, March 25th_, 1849. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 03:24:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:24:03 -0500 Subject: Brother Jonathan (1791) Message-ID: "Brother Jonathan" is/was a symbol of our country, much like "Uncle Sam." It's frequently also just "Jonathan," but that's difficult to trace. There's also a food named after B.J. OED's first citation is 1816. It's often mentioned that George Washington said this of "Brother Jonathan" Trumbull, of Connecticut, but no one's found anything in George Washington's well-scrutinized papers. Again, care of the American Periodical Series online. February 1791, THE AMERICAN MUSEUM, OR UNIVERSAL MAGAZINE (APS I, Reel 5), pg. 116: THE ANECDOTIST.--No III. (...) THE first American vessel that anchored in the river Thames, after the peace, attracted great numbers to see the stripes. A British soldier hailed in a contemptuous tone, "From whence came you, brother Jonathan?" The boatswain retorted, "straight from Bunker's hill, d--n you." From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Nov 6 07:08:11 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:08:11 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. One such, apparently dropped by the 20th century (I don't find it in later dictionaries), was "Dutch gold," defined as not gold, of course, but as "copper, brass, and bronze leaf, used largely in Holland to ornament toys." (from M-W 1864) --DS From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 07:37:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:37:58 EST Subject: Pizza 2002 (Wed. NY TIMES) Message-ID: From today's (Wednesday's) NEW YRK TIMES: Pizza 2002: The State of the Slice By ED LEVINE HAT'S the best way to set New Yorkers to bickering? Ask where to find the best slice of pizza in the city. No subject starts a battle faster—not bagels or hot dogs or chopped liver, not even the primacy of the Rangers or the fastest route to J.F.K. Pizza, introduced to New York in 1905 by Gennaro Lombardi, who saw it as a way to use up the day-old bread in his Spring Street grocery store, has long been the affordable, satisfying food of choice for peripatetic New Yorkers of every age, sex, race and class. 1905? As I posted here when NEW YORK TIMES full text became available, there is a "pizza" citation in the NEW YORK TIMES before 1905. No one believes me? How could the NEW YORK TIMES not believe the NEW YORK TIMES? Their 1903 newspaper was lying? Anyway, here are some Italian food citations I have sitting around the house here. 9 June 1827, THE CORRESPONDENT (American Periodical Series II, reel 384), pg. 319: _Festivals at Naples._(...) Here a sun of sugar-candy is arrested in the midst of his course to obey the voice of a Joshua in chocolate, who is trampling under foot an army of _biscottini_ (little figues in biscuit.) (...) He is seen seated on his throne of _pasta-reale_, preparing to pronounce his celebrated sentence in presence of his people, and of the guards, by whom he is surrounded. But who, think you, are these guards? Squadrons of sugar pulcinelli well armed with pikes of maccaroni! (...) Their garments are composed of _mortadelle_ and _salciociotti_, (particular kinds of sausages), and the chalice intrusted to their hands is a Dutch cheese of superior quality. ("Pasta," but no "pizza"--ed.) May 1901, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE (APS), "Breakfast in Naples," pg. 15: Groups of delicate, anemic factory-girls surround the sellers of _ricotta_, a sort of milk-curd, temptingly displayed on bits of green vine or fig-leaf. (...) ...innumerable _friggitrici_, or frying-women, preside over huge, deep skillets of boiling lard. (...) ..._polpette_, or meat-rolls, such as we would call fried hash-meat turnovers;... (...) Another indescribable mess is the famous _sanguinaccio_, or pig's blood, mixed with chocolate and whipped to a cream. This is, however, an aristocratic dish, and appears on the street only at Christmas-tide. (...) The famous _pizzerie_ of Naples, some of which boast a hundred years of existence, are devoted exclusively to the manufacture and sale of a sort of rustic pie, or short-cake made out of risen dough, sharply beaten till quite thin, and seasoned on top with a great deal of lard, tomatoes, and grated cheese, or, on fast-days, with olive-oil, fresh anchovies, and a touch of garlic. The brisk tapping and slapping of the _pizze_ can be heard a block away, and is as characteristic as the sonorous call of the sellers: "Have some breakfast! Have some breakfast!" You can buy a slice in the street from one of the runners, or, if you prefer, can enter the shop, stand by while your _pizza_ is being vigorously thumped and slapped, can see it cooked in the glowing open oven under the fierce heat of a lateral fire of wood shavings, whisked out on an iron shovel in three minutes' time, and served to you in popular style on a tin plate, all for three cents. Queen Margherita, when she visited Naples, sledom failed to patronize the pizzerie, though not exactly at the stalls, nor yet before the street oven. One of the "ancient" makers was invited to the royal palace at Capodimonte, where she usually resided, and there, in one of the rustic lodges of the domain, he set up his marble slab, hard by the stone oven, and merrily beat his pizze before the interested eyes of the royal dame and her court. (...) ..._cannolicchi_, a long. slim bivalve, very sweet and very much alive, much esteemed by those who have the courage to eat them;... January 1906, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE (APS), "The Olive-Vendor," pg. 432: (...) Then came Lucia Pacini, daughter of Paolo Pacini, who kept the _pizze cavui_ shop in Mott Street. (...) "I have come for some cheese," murmured Lucia, with downcast eyes, as she tendered Pius a small silver piece. "And let it be as much for the money as you can make it, for summer is not a good time for _pizze_ cakes and business is poor with us." (...) Already a sign, "To Let," adorned the dront door of the _pizzi cavui_ shop. (...) (So "slices" were sold in Naples, even back then...See also "The Poor in Naples," SCRIBNER'S MAGAZINE, January 1893, pg. 58, on the MOA-Cornell database for another brief "pizza" citation...Only about a thousand trillion more years before the NY TIMES food section mentions my work. My friend Gersh Kuntzman of the NY POST got mentioned last week--before me, of course--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 07:55:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:55:46 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885); Kielbasa & Serdelki (1932) Message-ID: DUTCH TREAT (continued) I should add that that "Dutch Treat" citation is also on the MOA-Cornell database. It appears that I haven't posted this NEW YORK TIMES citation. It's a little earlier, although the later citation talks about an earlier period, at the start of the Civil War. 18 March 1877, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 6: The expense of any kind of feast, it is supposed, must be borne by some on person. It is true that there are ways by means of which this sentiment may be got around. But a certain sordid character still hangs to that transaction, which has been dubbed a "Dutch treat." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KIELBASA & SERDELKI Moving from Dutch to Polish. May 1932, NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, "A Polish-American Retrospect," pg. 450: But there were, besides rabbit, chicken, duck, beef, lamb, sausages (_kielbasa_, _serdelki_)... (...) ...and most of all, sausages--salami; sweet, finely seasoned _kielbasa_, and _serdelki_, beside which, for all-round gastric and olfactory merit, few sausages are fit to hang. (Merriam-Webster's date for "kielbasa" is later in the 1930s and OED places it in the 1950s!--ed.) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Nov 6 08:07:23 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:07:23 -0800 Subject: A software and stick note Message-ID: I always thought countable use of software was limited to non-native English speakers, but yesterday a friend used it twice in an e-mail and then verbally in a follow-up phone call. He was also telling me about stick notes the other day. Sure enough, he meant Post-Its, or stickies as I would normally call them. Even sticky notes, but stick notes... He lives in DC, and has lived in San Francisco and Texas in the past. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Nov 6 08:47:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 01:47:20 -0700 Subject: Geolinguistics Message-ID: I guess I've been too insular, or just found the term unpleasant and so avoided it, but some of our local linguists have been touting "geolinguistics" as an exciting cover-term to elicit administration support for language and linguistics in the university, including language contact, language variation, language change, ethnic/minority language situations, bilingualism, bilingual education, and a few other things. Does anyone else have strongly positive or negative reactions to the term, or to the range of topics included? Should it be a label to sell the administration on? Rudy From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Nov 6 09:00:34 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:00:34 -0000 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: 'Gen' as meaning information is not computerspeak but an RAF coinage - Partridge suggests as early as 1929 - which was widely popularized during WW2. It is, supposedly, an abbreviation of 'general information of all ranks.' He also has 'genned up': = well supplied with infomation, listed in the Dict. Forces Slang 1939-45 (1948), although 'gen up, is defined only as 'to swot for a test or examination; to read up a subject'. In addition he lists 'gen king' or 'gen wallah': 'one who can be tapped for trustworthy information', and 'gen man': (1) an Orderly Room, Signals or Operations Room clerk; (2) an Intelligence Officer. A 'gen box' was a synonym for a 'black box', either an instrument that permits bomb aimers to see through clouds or darkness. After the war it moved into civilian use, thus 1945 Kingsley Amis letter 15 Dec (in Leader _Letters of KA_, 2000) 23: I will then slip the gen across to you ole boy Jonathon Green From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Wed Nov 6 11:43:45 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:43:45 -0500 Subject: Fwd: SECOL: Job offer at Coastal Carolina (sociolinguistics) Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from "Thiede, Ralf" ----- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:21:01 -0500 From: "Thiede, Ralf" Reply-To: "Thiede, Ralf" Subject: SECOL: Job offer at Coastal Carolina (sociolinguistics) To: "'t.irons at morehead-st.edu'" Dear Terry, Steve Nagle sent me this job announcement for a tenure-track sociolinguist at Coastal Carolina (NC). Please bring this to the attention to any doctoral student on the job market: The Department of English and Journalism at Coastal Carolina University invites applications for a tenure-track position in sociolinguistics. Applicants must have, by June 2003, an earned Ph.D. in linguistics with emphasis on sociolinguistics. A track record of excellent teaching , a demonstrated potential for conducting research in speech communities in CCU's region, and an interest in grant writing to facilitate such research are expected. The Department currently offers a B.A. in English with four undergraduate linguistics courses taught in varying frequency and takes part in the University's MAT program, in which graduate linguistics courses are occasionally offered. The successful candidate can expect a 3/4 teaching load in linguistics, Freshman Composition, and Business Communications, which may include off-campus and distance learning courses. Review of applications begins November 7, and screening interviews, arranged by the Department Chair, will be conducted at the SAMLA Conference in Baltimore, November 14-16, and at the MLA Convention in New York, December 27-30. Applicants should send a cover letter, a current resume, transcripts of all graduate work, and three letters of recommendation to Dr. Jill Sessoms, Chair, Department of English and Journalism, Coastal Carolina University, P.O. Box 261954, Conway, SC 29528-6054. ----- End forwarded message ----- ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Nov 6 12:56:51 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:56:51 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: While searching for "ethnic cleansing" in the archives, I came across the following post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905A&L=ads-l&P=R1252 It begins thusly: "This posting is more about history than about language, but it is a response to a posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic cleansing.'" I've searched and searched but I can't find the "posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic cleansing'." Can anyone help me find that post, or send me a copy if you have it? Even better, does anyone have any information about the earliest use of "ethnic cleansing," particularly anything that antedates the OED's 1991 cite? Thanks. Paul From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 13:45:13 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:45:13 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 2:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM writes: > I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as > auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English > tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I > think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short > or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. Ethnic disparagement by language is hardly an "ignoble English tradition" as it has occurs in many other languages as well. (Sounds like a topic for sociolinguists to study.) A "classical" example is from Classical Greek, where non-Greeks were lumped together as "barbarians". Does anyone know if this Greek word "barbar" passed into Arabic and became responsible for the names "Barbary coast" and "Berber"? Back to the Dutch. While in English "Dutch" is used disparagingly for "things that fall short" (e.g. "Dutch courage"), I am told by a former coworker who lived in the Low Countries that Belgians tell jokes about stingy Dutch people (and the Dutch respond with jokes about dumb Belgians). It seems we can't even get a consistent negative stereotype. One more question: in theatrical work there is the noun and verb "dutchman" meaning a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps in the stage set, and to apply same. I have never heard it outside the stage, but MWCD10 defines it as "a device for hiding or counteracting structural defects" with no restriction given to any particular field. Is this use of "dutchman" one more example of English's negative stereotype of the Dutch? (The alternative seems to be that at one time English stagehands all went to Holland for training, which does not seem likely.) - Jim Landau P.S. I picked up the habit of referring to Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate as "MWCD10" from Jeff Miller's Web site on history of math words (URL http://members.aol.com/jeff570/mathword.html). Is this a standard abbreviation, or did Jeff invent it? From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 6 13:45:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:45:23 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or "gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create something outside the normal scheme of things. ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Nov 6 14:07:52 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:07:52 -0000 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: Further to David Bergdahl's links to Prohibition-era 'gin', Partridge (DSUE) also, and quite separately to the 'gen' material, offers 'gin up': 'to consume hard liquor before a party' in order to induce a 'party spirit'. This he attributes to 'Service officers' and dates it to c.1930. He has no figurative use, however. Mathews' _Dict. Americanisms_ has a first use, again of the drinking definition only, in 1894. Mathews also has the phrase 'gin her up': 'to work hard, to infuse with energy' and offers an 1887 cite. In this case the etymology may be 'gin', an engine, but possibly the SE 'ginger up', which dates back to a popular 18C means of enlivening a horse with a judiciously placed lump of root ginger. Jonathon Green From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 6 14:56:42 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:56:42 -0500 Subject: Brother Jonathan (1791) In-Reply-To: <08E7A399.43E5FB46.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 10:24:03PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Brother Jonathan" is/was a symbol of our country, much like >"Uncle Sam." It's frequently also just "Jonathan," but >that's difficult to trace. Though the _Dictionary of Americanisms_ does have a 1780 cite for _Jonathan._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Nov 6 15:23:05 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: Jambalaya (1849) In-Reply-To: <2CB7CF31.1B5CA7C7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: This is interesting, given that nowadays hopping John and jambalaya are not the same dish. Is there other evidence for jambalaya having been called "hopping John" at one time? Ben On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > _Hopping Johnny_ (jambalaya).--Take a dressed chicken, or full-grown fowl, if not old, and cut all the flesh into small pieces, with a sharp knife. Put this into an iron pot, with a large spoonful of butter and one onion chopped fine; sttep and stir it till it is brown; then add water enough to cover it, and put in some parsley, spices, and red pepper pods, chopped fine, and let it boil till you think it is barely done, taking care to stir it often, so as not to burn it; then stir in as much rice, when cooked, as will absorb all the water; stir and boil it a minute or so, andthen let it stand and simmer until the rice is cooked, and you will have a most delicious dish of palatable, digestible food. > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:21:11 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:21:11 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I and my colleagues, not in one specific geographical area, don't feel Google is superior. And I've reaffirmed that several times also. What we have here is personal preference about the organization and focus of search engines, especially concerning what to leave out and what to include. I'd much prefer to discriminate about data myself rather than let a third party do that. Dodi Schultz wrote: > Lesa Dill asks, > > >> Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it > >> "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > > In answer to your first question: Not to my knowledge. I have found, as > have most of my friends and colleagues (who are not concentrated in any > particular geographical area), that Google is simply superior to the > others. Personally, I've reaffirmed that each time I've done a comparative > test (which I do whenever I see another search engine recommended). > > In answer to your second question: See the answer to the first question. > > --Dodi Schultz From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:30:48 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:30:48 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: That's what I would have assumed. Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even > >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective > >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also > >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits > >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search > >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a > >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or > >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. > > Isn't an allusion to the verb "ogle" implied? > > Jan Ivarsson > jan.ivarsson at transedit.st > http://www.transedit.st From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:37:07 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:37:07 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like DogPile John Smith myself. Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > > #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > # > #I don't know. > > How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be > Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? > > "Yahoo" already exists in everyday English. "Dog pile" is meaningful, > although I'm pretty sure the connotation that I have for it is not the > one the creators intended! ("Watch your step, there's a dog pile!") > "Yahoo! John Smith", especially with that dratted exclamation mark, > reads as = 'hurray for J.S.'. > > "Google", OTOH, is novel to most speakers. Yes, I know about Barney > Google, and I know about the song, but I'd bet a cookie (the edible > kind) that to the great majority of English-speakers who know the word, > the first meaning that comes to mind is the search engine. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 17:14:05 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:14:05 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Does anyone know if this Greek word "barbar" passed into Arabic and became > responsible for the names "Barbary coast" and "Berber"? > >From OED (online version): "Arab. Barbar, Berber, applied by the Arab geographers from ancient times to the natives of N. Africa, west and south of Egypt. According to some native lexicographers, of native origin, f. Arab. barbara to talk noisily and confusedly (which is not derived from Gr. ); according to others, a foreign word, African, Egyptian, or perh. from Greek. The actual relations (if any) of the Arabic and Gr. words cannot be settled; but in European langs. Barbaria, Barbarie, Barbary, have from the first been treated as identical with L. barbaria, Byzantine Gr. land of barbarians" > > One more question: in theatrical work there is the noun and verb "dutchman" > meaning a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps > in the stage set, and to apply same. I have never heard it outside the > stage, but MWCD10 defines it as "a device for hiding or counteracting > structural defects" with no restriction given to any particular field. > I think it might be used to masonry and carpentry. Also from the online OED: "4. In technical applications (see quots.). Chiefly U.S. 1859 BARTLETT Dict. Amer. 134 Dutchman, a flaw in a stone or marble slab, filled up by an insertion. 1874 KNIGHT Dict. Mech., Dutchman (Carpentry), a playful name for a block or wedge of wood driven into a gap to hide the fault in a badly made joint. 1905 Terms Forestry & Logging 36 Dutchman, a short stick placed transversely between the outer logs of a load to divert the load toward the middle and so keep any logs from falling off. 1909 Cent. Dict. Suppl., Dutchman, a layer of suet fastened with skewers into a roast of lean beef or mutton. 1957 Brit. Commonwealth Forest Terminol. 64 Dutchman, a prop used in logging for such purposes as preventing the binding of a saw when crosscutting, or for supporting the coupling of an arch while it is being hooked to a tractor. 1960 New Yorker 3 Sept. 20/3 He mended the [marble] lion by cutting recesses several inches deep wherever the stone was damaged, and fitting new pieces of stone therein. These pieces are known in the trade as dutchmen." I've heard the carpentry uses but not cooking one. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 17:51:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:51:05 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 12:14:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > From OED (online version): > > "Arab. Barbar, Berber, applied by the Arab geographers from ancient times > to the natives of N. Africa Thanks for the information. An odd thing about the OED text: The Arabs led the world in geography and many other intellectual pursuits from the rise of Islam to roughly the Renaissance. However, as far as I know, there were no works of geography written in Arabic before Muhammed. Hence the OED seems to be referring to Moslem Arab geographers as living "in ancient times". Now these Arabs lived in what Christian Europe thinks of as "the Middle Ages" and I personally do not think of the Middle ages as being "ancient". Neither do I think of the early Islamic period, or any Islamic period, as "ancient." This is of course personal preference, but does anyone else find the OED usage of "ancient times" to be odd? Or am I wrong and there do exist documents from pre-Moslem Arabia that apply "B-R-B-R" (Barbar, Berber when vowels are added) to North Africa? (Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia during that time.) - Jim Landau From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 18:03:13 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:03:13 EST Subject: curtain stretcher Message-ID: In a message dated 10/11/02 10:12:03 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried during which time the curtains were waiting on tenterhooks, but not on pins and needles >it could be ironed. >> Hmmm, sounds painful. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:05:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:05:22 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: <200211060208_MC3-1-1930-6683@compuserve.com> Message-ID: At 2:08 AM -0500 11/6/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: >I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as >auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English >tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I >think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short >or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. > >One such, apparently dropped by the 20th century (I don't find it in later >dictionaries), was "Dutch gold," defined as not gold, of course, but as >"copper, brass, and bronze leaf, used largely in Holland to ornament toys." >(from M-W 1864) > I don't have my Farmer & Henley _Slang and its Analogues_ on me, but they list many many such entries, all traceable back (they note) to the 17th century Herring Wars between England and Holland for supremacy of the North Sea fishing grounds. A sampler (note that there's a bit of sex-based as well as national chauvinism revealed here): dutch auction: a sale at minimum prices dutch bargain: a bargain all on one side dutch-clock: a bedpan; a wife dutch concert, dutch medley: a hubbub, whereat everyone sings and plays at the same time dutch consolation: Job's comfort; unconsoling consolation (e.g. "Thank heaven it is no worse") dutch courage: pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication dutch feast: an entertainment where the host gets drunk before his guests dutch treat: an entertainment where everyone pays his own shot dutch uncle: an uncle of peculiar fierceness (I'll talk to him like a Dutch uncle = 'I will reprove him severely') dutch widow: a prostitute dutch wife: a bolster (on a bed) That beats the Dutch: a sarcastic superlative to do a dutch: to desert, run away to talk double-dutch: to talk gibberish, nonsense I'm a Dutchman if I do: a strong refusal (= I'm damned if I will) Larry From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:08:47 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:08:47 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) Message-ID: Perhaps I can obfuscate this discussion a bit. Evidently more or less contemporaneously with the Jack Rose cocktail there was a brand of cigars called Jack Rose. [From Douglas Gilbert, American Vaudeville: Its Life and Times, N. Y.: Dover, 1968, p. 227. (The book was originally published in 1940.) It has a reference to] . . . a five cent package of Jack Rose little cigars (later called "squealers," after the witness by the same name who informed in the Rosenthal case). . . . This refers to the murder of Herman Rosenthal in 1912; a gambler of dubious morals named Jack Rose was a principal informer. The murder was, and to a degree still is, notorious. Four men were executed for it, including Charles Becker, a prominent police lieutenant. Of these, one or two may have been innocent, including the policeman. The prosecutor in the case, Charles Whitman, used the name-recognition he got from the case to get elected governor, so that Becker had to appeal to Governor Whitman to commute the death sentence won by DA Whitman, with predictable results. There have been several books about the case, including one by Andy Logan, in the early 1970s. I haven't read Logan's book for some years, not anything else about the case, but I did not have the impression that Jack Rose the squealer had been a man of much note before the murder. But perhaps he was famous enough in the right circles to have a drink and a cigar named after him. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 5, 2002 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) > At 8:51 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I > >discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See > >ADS-L archives.) > > > > 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: > > > >_AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ > >_Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ > > Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a > >very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a > >mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs > >of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., > >one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an > >active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the > >professional wrestlers a warm argument. > > Here's another version or two, courtesy of > http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/97/11/index4a.html > (the site has a lovely picture of the drink, which does indeed > like a > Jacqueminot rose--or so I imagine). I was wondering if there was > any relation to Rose's Lime Juice, but as far as I can tell there > isn't. > > Larry > ======================== > > This cocktail gives us a twinge at the back of the tongue before > smoothly sliding down the gullet, swathed in sweetness. It's the mix > of pain and > delight in the Jack Rose that we just can't say no to. > > Mixed with 1 1/2 ounces applejack and an ounce lime juice (or 1/2 an > ounce lemon juice), followed by half an ounce grenadine, the Jack Rose > has the tang of Jersey Lightning and the sappy charm of grenadine. > The lime is the bridge from one to the other. But it's not the Jack > Rose's > deep-laid taste, only hinting at apple, that attracts imbibers. > Instead, it's the drink's hue - not quite red, not quite pink - that > draws us to the > cocktail. > > We had just assumed the Jack Rose was named for its color. After all, > Albert S. Crockett, author of the 1934 Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar, wrote > that the Jack Rose, or Jacque Rose, was "the exact shade of a > Jacqueminot rose, when properly concocted." The rose, in turn, is > named after > French general Jean-François Jacqueminot, who endured from 1787 until > 1865. Some suggest the drink was named after the general, but we're > certain that can't be: The French would never allow a drink mixed > with the Yankee cousin of their fine apple brandy, Calvados, to be > tied to their > language. > > Our efforts to find a more believable christening of the Jack Rose > took us to the Colts Neck Inn of Colts Neck, New Jersey: "The great, > great > grandpa of the Laird family, the restaurant's first owner and the > only distiller left making applejack, invented it," says Nelson > Fastige, a Colts > Neck bartender for the last 14 years. "His name was Jack, and the > drink was a reddish pink color, like the rose." A modest enough tale > that > almost inspired us to stop our search. But not having put in a good > day's work, we decided to call the Laird family in Scobeyville, New > Jersey. > "The Jack Rose cocktail was not invented at the Colts Neck Inn as > some believe. Nor was it created by a Laird family ancestor," Lisa > Laird-Dunn, the Laird & Company's VP and a member of the family's > ninth generation, told us. "One of the more colorful myths is in fact > truth, > not fiction.... During the late 1800s, there was a gentleman by the > name of Jack Rose, from New York City. He was regarded as somewhat of > a > shady character who made his living in and around City Hall and the > New York courts. Mr. Rose's favorite beverage was applejack, and he > consumed it mixed with lemon juice and grenadine. He became known for > this cocktail, thus it was dubbed the Jack Rose." > > We certainly like the idea of a gangster rogue, instead of a > presumably well-behaved and well-aged gentleman, sipping the Jack > Rose. So we > called it a day and tried to find an establishment that would serve > us a round of Jack Roses. But alas, no luck. If they weren't trying > to swap > Calvados for applejack, then they were set on serving the cocktail > with apple brandy - all while charging us an extra 50 cents per > drink. We'll > actually take these substitutes in a pinch, but attest the Jack Rose > is far from the same without that applejack burn. Besides, if we're > going to sip > apple brandy, we'd rather have it straight. Occasionally, to coax the > mixer into meeting our demands, we'll quote from Ms. Laird-Dunn: "The > drink became very popular in the early 1900s and remained so after > the repeal of Prohibition. There wasn't a restaurant in New York City > that > did not serve the Jack Rose." To which most bartenders reply that we > ought to consider a move. > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:27:05 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:27:05 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > An odd thing about the OED text: The Arabs led the world in geography and > many other intellectual pursuits from the rise of Islam to roughly the > Renaissance. However, as far as I know, there were no works of geography > written in Arabic before Muhammed. Other than some inscriptions and a few papyri (as far as I know, none of them about geography or North Africa), there aren't any written Arabic documents before Muhammad, at least none that survived if they existed at all. There is a corpus of pre-Islamic poetry, but again that wasn't recorded in writing until after Muhammad. > Or am I wrong and there do exist > documents from pre-Moslem Arabia that apply "B-R-B-R" (Barbar, Berber when > vowels are added) to North Africa? None that I know of. > > (Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but > Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of > Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which > was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia > during that time.) Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon has this under barbar, "a foreign word [probably of African origin the primary form of which is the source of [Greek] Barbaros, or as some suggest from [Arabic] barbarah in speech" So Lane would derive both the Arabic AND Greek words from some common African original. Unfortunately he does not give more details. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:50:48 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:50:48 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to the Indian burn. With the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and forth on the skull of the inferior person. The Indian burn involved grabbing someone's wrist with both hands and twisting smartly back and forth, stretching the skin taut in both directions. Was any other little brother out there the recipient of such torture from an older brother? (i.e. has anyone else lived to tell about it?) Peter R. From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Nov 6 19:38:50 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:38:50 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. Paul ----- Original Message ----- > While searching for "ethnic cleansing" in the archives, I came across the > following post: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905A&L=ads-l&P=R1252 > > It begins thusly: > > "This posting is more about history than about language, but it is a > response to a posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic > cleansing.'" > > I've searched and searched but I can't find the "posting about the earliest > use of the term 'ethnic cleansing'." Can anyone help me find that post, or > send me a copy if you have it? Even better, does anyone have any information > about the earliest use of "ethnic cleansing," particularly anything that > antedates the OED's 1991 cite? From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 6 19:40:22 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:40:22 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" In-Reply-To: <0ec501c285cc$21e1e470$ef9afea9@paul> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 02:38:50PM -0500, Paul McFedries wrote: > I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from > which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. If it sheds any light on the term's use, would you care to share it with us? Jesse Sheidlower From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 6 20:20:33 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:20:33 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dutch rub sounds like a noogie (not sure of the spelling). Noogie was used in a SNL skit with Gilda Radner and Bill Murray. I didn;t get too many of these, but was tortured by endless games of "Why are you hitting yourself?" Ed --- Peter Richardson wrote: > Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to > the Indian burn. With > the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and > forth on the skull of the > inferior person. The Indian burn involved grabbing > someone's wrist with > both hands and twisting smartly back and forth, > stretching the skin taut > in both directions. Was any other little brother out > there the recipient > of such torture from an older brother? (i.e. has > anyone else lived to tell > about it?) > > Peter R. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 21:16:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:16:26 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 1:58:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon has this under barbar, "a foreign word > [probably of African origin the primary form of which is the source of > [Greek] Barbaros, By "African" I can only surmise that Lane means what used to be called "Hamitic", that is, the branch of the Afro-Asiatic (as it is now called) language family which includes ancient Egyptian and other languages of the western short of the Red Sea. Now the Greeks back to Mycenean times were familiar with Egypt and could easily have added some Egyptian words to Greek. We now have the interesting suggestion that the Greeks adopted a foreign word to use as a disparaging term for foreigners. It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 21:26:44 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:26:44 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to > some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. > And still do. Hans Wehr, Arabic-English dictionary: tafarnaja (vb.) to become Europeanized, adopt European manners, imitate the Europeans al-Ifranj the Europeans, Bilad al-Ifranj Europe. Ifranji (adj) European. Firanja Land of the Franks, Europe. tafarnuj (n) Europeanization, imitation of the Europeans. mutafarnij (adj) Europeanized, etc. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Nov 6 23:27:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:27:24 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <3DC94533.222B063E@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #Mark A Mandel wrote: #> On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #> #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #> #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? #> # #> #I don't know. #> #> How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be #> Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? [...] #Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like #DogPile John Smith myself. There's always the wink ;-) . The reason for emoticons is that on the Net, nobody can hear your tone of voice or see your facial expression or body language. Your question sounded perfectly straightforward to me, and evidently to Bethany, too. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 05:36:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:36:11 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1883 for "geoduck." I'm sorry that I have only 1882, but it's a decent 1882 citation from the American Periodical Series. I gotta do something for Allen Maberry up there in Washington. 29 April 1882, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 264: _The Geoduck._ BY JOHN A. RYDER. The following extract from a list of shells sent with some specimens to Mr. George W. Tryon, jr., the Conservator of the Conchological Section of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia, by Mr. Henry Hemphill, appears to me to be of importance as a contribution to economical science, and with Mr. Tryon's permission I am allowed to make use of it for publication. "_Glycimeris generosa_. Olympia, Washington Territory. "I send you a fine large specimen of this species. Its flesh is, I think, the most delicious of any bivalve I have ever eaten, not excepting the best oysters. "When first dug and laid upon its back, it resembles a fat plump duck. The edges of the shell do not meet, but are separated by a breast of flesh (the greatly thickened mantle) about three inches wide, one inch thick, and about a foot long, including about half of its siphon. This portion is cut into thin slices, rolled in meal, and fried. It is exceedingly tender, juicy, and sweet, and about the consistency of scrambled eggs, which it resembles very much in taste. The boys at Olympia call them'Geoducks;' they dig them on a certain sand bar at extreme low tide, and sell them to a merchant who ships them to Portland, Oregon, where they readily sell at fair prices. The boys inform me that the Indians on the Sound call them Quenux, and dry them for food with the other clams." (...) --_Bulletin U. S. Fish Commission_. 23 February 1883, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: But the oolachan pales before something called the "geoduck." This name alone has an inviting sound. You find the geoduck principally in Puget SOund and in San Diego Bay, though it is scattered all along the coast from San Francisco to the north. It might be a pity to call it a clam, though it belongs to that humble family, and unpoetical naturalists call it _Glycimeris generosa_. The terminal name, however, shows that the scientific person who baptized it was somewhat touched by its great merits. (...) The method of cooking is to cut off four pounds of geoduck in slices, to roll it in meal, and to fry it. Then, says a gustatory critic, "You have something like scrambled eggs, but with a flavor of its own." Why should not the geoduck be sent to us? If we have given the west coast our shad they might return favors by sending us their geoduck for cultivation. We ought to try and propogate this prince of clams. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 05:59:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:59:38 -0500 Subject: Hopping John (1834) Message-ID: My "jambalaya" antedate is "hopping johnny," and my "hopping john" antedate now looks like it's something else! From the ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES database. May, 1834 THE LADY'S BOOK (GODEY'S--ed.) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Volume VIII Page 244 "What shall we have?--It's cold.--What d'ye say to Hopping John, made Tom Nottle's fashion?--Landlord, mix a pint of brandy wi' half a gallon of your best cider, sugared to your own taste; and d'ye mind?--pop in about a dozen good roasted apples, hissing hot, to take the chill off." In a short time, the two cousins were seated by the fire, in a little room behind the bar of the Sawney's Cross, with a smoking bowl of liquor on the table before them, and Ned Creese assisting them to empty it. By degrees, the cousins became elevated, and their chat was enlivened by budding jokes and choice flowers or rustic song. Harry's forehead frequently reminded him, in the midst of his glee, of the (Word missing?--ed.) in the road; and he recurred to it, for the fifth time, since the sitting, as Ned brought in a second beverage of hot Hopping John:--"I'd lay a wager I know where my blind galloway is, just about now," quoth he; "it's odd to me if he isn't stopping at the Dragon's Head, where he always pulls up, and tempts me to call for a cup of cider and a mouthful of hay. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 06:11:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:11:38 -0500 Subject: Angel's Food (December 1868) Message-ID: GODEY'S calls "Angel's Food" a new dish in 1868? Do we have a rock-solid antedate with this, from ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES? December, 1868 Godey's Lady's Book Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Vol. LXXVII Page 539 Light Corn Bread... Sally Lunn... Floats... Cocoanut Pudding... White Mountain Ash Cake. One pound of white sugar, one teacupful of butter, half a cupful of sweet milk, the whites of ten eggs, half a small teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of cream of tartar, three cups of flour; flavor with vanilla or almond. Bake in jelly-cake pans with icing between. Icing for Cake... Raised Waffles... Lady Fingers... Spnge Pudding... Angel's Food. A New Dish. Make a rich custard, pour it in a glass bowl, and put a layer of sliced cake on it. Stir some finely-powdered sugar into quince or apple jelly, and drop it on the cake. Pour syllabub on the cake, and then put on another layer of cake, and icing. Washington Pie Cake. Half a teacup of butter, two cups of flour, four eggs. Mix the butter and sugar together, add the yelks (Yolks?--ed.), then the whites beaten to a froth. Mix one teaspoonful of cream of tartar in the flour, add one-half a teacupful of milk, in which is dissolved a half teaspoonful of soda. Bake like a loaf of jelly cake. The Jelly Part. One pint of sweet milk sweetened and flavored, one egg beaten, two tablespoonfuls of corn-starch. Cooked like blancmange. Gumbo... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 07:23:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 02:23:30 -0500 Subject: Fruit Cake (1828) Message-ID: Merriam-Webster has 1848 and OED has 1854 for "fruit cake." I had found some 1840s citations that were a little earlier. I just did some web searching of ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES, AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES, GERRITSEN COLLECTION, and NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS & DIARIES. We have some pretty good databases for this stuff! There is an 1822 hit on APS that I'll have to get the actual APS reel to check tomorrow (today). If any newspapers want to know about "fruitcake" this holiday season--and you know that they will--good gosh, don't come to me. Especially not the NEW YORK TIMES. Ask Nigella Lawson. She knows everything. 20 December 1828, SATURDAY EVENING POST (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES database), pg. 0_003 (?): The careful dame is anxiously employed in superintending the manufacture of pastry and pudding, and the younger ladies glow with the best of baking pound cake, and fruit cake--ladies fingers and jumbles. 1840, THE HOUSE BOOK: OR, A MANUAL OF DOMESTIC ECONOMY (Philadelphia: Carey & Hart) by Eliza Leslie (GERRITSEN COLLECTION database), pg. 146: A large plum-cake or fruit cake will require six or seven hours to bake; and it should not be taken out till the oven has grown quite cold. November 1841, THE LADY'S BOOK (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES database), pg. 195: He fruit cake would not rise, but came out of the hoop a hard, heavy, black mass, of which it would have been difficult to tell the designation;... (...) ...but Mrs. Haverset assured her that no one noticed whether fruit cake was light or heavy, and that the bride cake, could be scraped and cut into shape, and when iced would look quite a different thing. (...) The fruit cake had been rescued by Hannah before entirely too late, Mrs. Haverset concluding that as it was not absolutely necessary for fruit cake to be sent in whole, it might be cut up when cool, after the burnt iceing had been scraped off, and put into baskets. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Nov 7 14:54:34 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:54:34 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <0E0BFD25.11E3E3E2.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 7 14:54:07 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:54:07 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 09:54:34AM -0500, sagehen wrote: > I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. > When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local > pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & > other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. The pronunciation is unquestionably GOO-ee-duck. The OED's pronunciation is in error and will be corrected. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:20:45 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:20:45 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" In-Reply-To: <002701c28520$2828b7c0$b1b89b3f@db> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #>From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the #next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen #up something. British "gen" for 'information' is much older than computers, though I have no refs at hand. That's not to contradict your suggestion, but the older "gen" may well have fed into it. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:29:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:29:24 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" In-Reply-To: <001301c28572$f9936e70$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #'Gen' as meaning information is not computerspeak but an RAF coinage - #Partridge suggests as early as 1929 - which was widely popularized during #WW2. It is, supposedly, an abbreviation of 'general information of all #ranks.' He also has 'genned up': = well supplied with infomation, listed in #the Dict. Forces Slang 1939-45 (1948), although 'gen up, is defined only as #'to swot for a test or examination; to read up a subject'. In addition he #lists 'gen king' or 'gen wallah': 'one who can be tapped for trustworthy [...] With similar Raj connotations I have seen "pukka gen", which I understood to mean 'genuine (i.e., reliable) information'. (Cf. "pukka sahib". From _The New Fowler's Modern English Usage_ s.v. "sahib", via http://www.xrefer.com/entry/596835: "(In colonial India) [...] A pukka sahib was a true gentleman"]. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:34:39 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:34:39 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" In-Reply-To: <005901c2859a$c2305380$64b89b3f@db> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or #"gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar #phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: # #As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my #writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era #days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in #their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also #took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create #something outside the normal scheme of things. This is only folk etymology. He says, "I always took it to be ..." That's what he supposed about an expression he heard from his father, not the result of research or of firsthand knowledge, or even of n-th-hand knowledge (such as "Dad, why do you call it that?"). -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:40:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:40:19 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #(Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but #Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of #Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which #was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia #during that time.) Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is this one worldwide? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:44:09 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:44:09 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to the Indian burn. With #the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and forth on the skull of the #inferior person. As a kid (late 50s-early 60s) I called this a "noogie", /'n U g i:/. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:46:27 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:46:27 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, A. Maberry wrote: #On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #> It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to #> some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. # #And still do. Hans Wehr, Arabic-English dictionary: tafarnaja (vb.) to #become Europeanized, adopt European manners, imitate the Europeans #al-Ifranj the Europeans, Bilad al-Ifranj Europe. Ifranji (adj) European. #Firanja Land of the Franks, Europe. tafarnuj (n) Europeanization, #imitation of the Europeans. mutafarnij (adj) Europeanized, etc. ISTR a long discussion of this topic some years ago either here or on LINGUIST List. It included quite a bit of solid etymology. -- Mark M. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 15:47:34 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:47:34 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: It's goo-ee-duck. >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 15:50:45 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:50:45 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: It's GOO-ee-duck. Fritz (Oregon) >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 15:50:42 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:50:42 -0500 Subject: Hopping John (1834) In-Reply-To: <2A0F35AF.3FD07F6D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a great recipe for the holidays! >May, 1834 >THE LADY'S BOOK (GODEY'S--ed.) >Philadelphia, Pennsylvania >Volume VIII Page 244 > >"What shall we have?--It's cold.--What d'ye say to Hopping John, made Tom >Nottle's fashion?--Landlord, mix a pint of brandy wi' half a gallon of >your best cider, sugared to your own taste; and d'ye mind?--pop in about a >dozen good roasted apples, hissing hot, to take the chill off." > >In a short time, the two cousins were seated by the fire, in a little room >behind the bar of the Sawney's Cross, with a smoking bowl of liquor on the >table before them, and Ned Creese assisting them to empty it. By degrees, >the cousins became elevated, and their chat was enlivened by budding jokes >and choice flowers or rustic song. Harry's forehead frequently reminded >him, in the midst of his glee, of the (Word missing?--ed.) in the road; >and he recurred to it, for the fifth time, since the sitting, as Ned >brought in a second beverage of hot Hopping John:--"I'd lay a wager I know >where my blind galloway is, just about now," quoth he; "it's odd to me if >he isn't stopping at the Dragon's Head, where he always pulls up, and >tempts me to call for a cup of cider and a mouthful of hay. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 15:55:36 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Angel's Food (December 1868) In-Reply-To: <27333EF7.66DF2315.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: This isn't the angel food cake we know today (egg whites and flour). In fact, it sounds more like Boston cream pie/cake. But what's syllabub? BTW, "yelks" are indeed yolks; that's a common pronunciation in some dialects, spelled here as it sounds. At 01:11 AM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: > GODEY'S calls "Angel's Food" a new dish in 1868? Do we have a > rock-solid antedate with this, from ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES? > > >December, 1868 >Godey's Lady's Book >Philadelphia, Pennsylvania >Vol. LXXVII Page 539 > >... >Angel's Food. A New Dish. Make a rich custard, pour it in a glass bowl, >and put a layer of sliced cake on it. Stir some finely-powdered sugar >into quince or apple jelly, and drop it on the cake. Pour syllabub on the >cake, and then put on another layer of cake, and icing. >Washington Pie Cake. Half a teacup of butter, two cups of flour, four >eggs. Mix the butter and sugar together, add the yelks (Yolks?--ed.), >then the whites beaten to a froth. Mix one teaspoonful of cream of tartar >in the flour, add one-half a teacupful of milk, in which is dissolved a >half teaspoonful of soda. Bake like a loaf of jelly cake. >The Jelly Part. One pint of sweet milk sweetened and flavored, one egg >beaten, two tablespoonfuls of corn-starch. Cooked like blancmange. From k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 7 16:49:29 2002 From: k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM (Casey :-)) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:49:29 +0000 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 7 16:57:51 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:57:51 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> > I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. > When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local > pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & > other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. > A. Murie yep, gooey duck. The gooey-er the better. Just as Puyallup isn't poo-yallup, but rather pyu-allup. Peter R. Oregon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 16:59:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:59:23 EST Subject: Snitz and Knep (1866); Kielbasy (1910); Dago Red (1900) Message-ID: SNITZ AND KNEP ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES, in addition to the very important GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK, has some pre-1871 Delaware/Pennsylvania newspapers. This should help me with PA Dutch regional food, but so far it hasn't. DARE will have this item, but I have no idea of the date. John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1869. June 1866 Godey's Lady's Book Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Vol LXXII Page 549 SNITZ AND KNEP. Take of sweet dried apples (dried with the skins on, if you can get them) about one quart. Put them in the bottom of a porcelain or tin-lined boiler with a cover. Take a nice piece of smoked ham washed very clean, and lay on top; add enough water to cook them nicely. About twenty minutes before dishing up, add the following dumplings. Dumplings. Mix a cup of warm milk with one egg, a little salt, and a little yeast, and enough flour to make a sponge. When light, work into a loaf. Let stand until about twenty minutes before dinner, then cut off slices or lumps, and lay on the apples, and let steam through. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KIELBASY 22 January 1910, A JOURNAL OF OUTDOOR LIFE, TRAVEL, NATURE STUDY, SHOOTING, FISHING, YACHTING (APS database), Pg. 141: The rarefied air of the mountains had sharpened our appetites, and before putting the rods together B. and I sat down under the shade of a willow to eat our second breakfast, while old Mikolaj, the forester, enjoyed his "kielbasy" and vodki a little apart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DAGO RED The RHHDAS has 1906. May 1900, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE (also on MOA?), pg. 0_008: The wine, called "Dago red," is of an inferior quality and ostensibly furnished free, participation in the game only being paid for. May 1903, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 363: ..."dago red," as the rough claret preferred by the denizens of this quarter is popularly designated. (In "The Humbler Restaurants of San Francisco"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOWIE KNIFE DARE wanted 1835. It's all over the place, but starting 17 December 1836 in ATKINSON'S SATURDAY EVENING POST. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 17:21:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:21:25 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <0E0BFD25.11E3E3E2.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:36 AM -0500 11/7/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1883 for "geoduck." I'm sorry >that I have only 1882, but it's a decent 1882 citation from the >American Periodical Series. I gotta do something for Allen Maberry >up there in Washington. > > > 29 April 1882, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 264: > _The Geoduck._ > BY JOHN A. RYDER. > The following extract from a list of shells sent with some >specimens to Mr. George W. Tryon, jr., the Conservator of the >Conchological Section of the Academy of Natural Sciences of >Philadelphia, by Mr. Henry Hemphill, appears to me to be of >importance as a contribution to economical science, and with Mr. >Tryon's permission I am allowed to make use of it for publication. > "_Glycimeris generosa_. Olympia, Washington Territory. > "I send you a fine large specimen of this species. Its flesh is, >I think, the most delicious of any bivalve I have ever eaten, not >excepting the best oysters. >... > 23 February 1883, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > But the oolachan pales before something called the "geoduck." >This name alone has an inviting sound. Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? Given the purported etymology (AHD4: from Puget Salish gwid at q), it's the spelling rather the pronunciation that's off here. And I suppose the "duck" spelling in particular represents the same kind of folk etymology we have in "crayfish", "rosemary", and "mushroom". larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 19:26:58 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:26:58 EST Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > this one worldwide? Gee, I always thought "babble" came from the Tower of Babel legend, but MWCD10 says "ME babelen, prob. of imit. origin" and dates it as 13th Century. "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to English but has no other connection with Greek. "Babel" comes from "Babylon"? Unproven, as far as I know, but probably yes. The Babylonian Gilgamesh cycle includes a version of Noah's flood, from which we can conclude that the Israelites were familiar with Babylonian legends, or vice versa, or that the Israelites and the Babylonians drew on a common source for legends (it doesn't matter which). In other words, the Israelites, long before the Babylonican conquest, had some familiarity with Babylonia and its most famous city, Babylon. It has been suggested that the Tower of Babel legend is due to the Babylonian ziggurats being interpreted by some non-Babylonian as an attempt to reach the heavens. Certainly ziggurats would be commonly associated with the city of Babylon. Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > The prima > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > this one worldwide? You may be right about onomatopoeia but your suggested evidence is tricky. If "babble" occurs in a number of languages, then it is probably due to the Book of Genesis, which is known worldwide. On the other hand, if "babble" is restricted to English and maybe a handful of other languages, then you can argue for onomatopoeia on the grounds that if such a well-known word escaped from the Bible, it would be far more widespread. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 19:32:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is >in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's convinced about J's true identity. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 19:38:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:38:36 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ - Jim Landau. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:30:30 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:30:30 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <25.307f5a16.2afc1b3c@aol.com> Message-ID: I would guess it was an attempt to represent the American Indian original, which may have had either a glottal stop or [x] in the first syllable; both are common in many AmInd languages. So what was a nonnative speaker to do when spelling it in English? When does the name first appear in print? And how about the Monongahela (sp?)? At 02:38 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? > >No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is >pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") >came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first >English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then >English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and >no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ > > - Jim Landau. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:33:37 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:33:37 -0800 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > > > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or > > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima > > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > > this one worldwide? > > > "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it > passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to > English but has no other connection with Greek. Admittedly without looking too hard, I was unable to find anything in Greek that would be the source for the word "babble". The Hebrew is Babel of Bavel (Gen. 11.9) so called because God "balal" ("confused") their languages. According to Gunkel (Genesis, 1910) however, the Cuneiform etymology is "Bab-il" = "God's gate" that itself might be only a Semitic/Babylonian popular etymology for a word which may not even be Semitic in origin. And, I have no idea why geoduck is spelled the way it is and is pronounced gooey-duck. There are certainly a number of American Indian names in Washington and Oregon where the spelling doesn't reflect the pronunciation at all. Larry Horn mentioned that a dictionary (I don't recall which one) listed the word as Salish. I've also seen references that it was originally a Nisqually word, and that it originated in Chinook jargon. allen maberry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:38:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:38:42 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021107152545.018d3228@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I would guess it was an attempt to represent the American Indian original, >which may have had either a glottal stop or [x] in the first syllable; both >are common in many AmInd languages. So what was a nonnative speaker to do >when spelling it in English? I'd have guessed "gooeyduck", as it's pronounced, or perhaps "gweduc" (avoiding the folk etymology, and retaining something similar to the Salish original). But I was wondering whence the "geo-", since it's not as if the link to the Greek prefix for "earth" is plausible here. If anything, the relation to "gooey"ness would be more salient (as well as more Salish). L >At 02:38 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >>> Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" >> > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? >> From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 7 20:49:21 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <25.307f5a16.2afc1b3c@aol.com> Message-ID: >... how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is >pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") >came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first >English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then >English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and >no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ .... Hereabouts (near the Youghiogheny) the Youghiogheny River's name is usually pronounced /jOk at geini/, and it's often abbreviated "Yough" /jOk/ ("yock"/"yawk"), occasionally written "Yock". (The Monongahela is called the Mon /mOn/.) Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous historically. I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation (like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot find any authoritative information on this right now. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:58:20 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:33 PM -0800 11/7/02, A. Maberry wrote: > > >And, I have no idea why geoduck is spelled the way it is and is pronounced >gooey-duck. There are certainly a number of American Indian names in >Washington and Oregon where the spelling doesn't reflect the pronunciation >at all. >Larry Horn mentioned that a dictionary (I don't recall which one) AHD4 >listed >the word as Salish. I've also seen references that it was originally a >Nisqually word, and that it originated in Chinook jargon. > >allen >maberry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:14:12 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:14:12 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby Message-ID: a recent column tells the following story: In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with his teammates. John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball today. Stephen Redmond, M.D., Morgan Hill Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled correspondent). extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:27:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: >In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, >mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > >> Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or >> folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima >> facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is >> this one worldwide? > >Gee, I always thought "babble" came from the Tower of Babel legend, but >MWCD10 says "ME babelen, prob. of imit. origin" and dates it as 13th Century. > >"Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it >passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to >English but has no other connection with Greek. > >"Babel" comes from "Babylon"? Unproven, as far as I know, but probably yes. >The Babylonian Gilgamesh cycle includes a version of Noah's flood, from which >we can conclude that the Israelites were familiar with Babylonian legends, or >vice versa, or that the Israelites and the Babylonians drew on a common >source for legends (it doesn't matter which). In other words, the >Israelites, long before the Babylonican conquest, had some familiarity with >Babylonia and its most famous city, Babylon. > Unproven? In the Hebrew Bible, Babylon is /bavel/ (intervocalic spirantization...the earlier form would have been /babel/). There's also a root BL, often reduplicated to BLBL, with meanings associated with mumbling and confusion. My Hebrew dictionaries are all at home, so I can't check how old this root is. But I would think a folk-etymological "just so" story, of the sort the Hebrew Bible is rife with, would depend on the prior existence of such a root. This is a totally separate question from that of how the Mesopotamian place name got its Greek form. I honestly don't remember what the Assyrian or Babylonian forms of the place name were, but it wouldn't surprise me if the -on ending came from Greek. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 21:28:38 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:28:38 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: There is considerable controversy about the pronunciation of the name of the Canadian-turned-American general superintendent of the Hudson's Bay Company who built Fort Vancouver and has become known as the "Father of Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation that most Portlanders use. The name of the major street in Portland is, as far as I know, called only that--I have never heard it called by any other pronunciation (I even remember saying McLouThlin as a kid). However, the folks at Fort Vancouver and the McLoughlin House (as well as one version of the Encyclopedia Americana) say McLouKlin. One native Portlander ranger did admit to me that she has changed to 'K' since she started working for 'The House.' I did some readings to try to find out what the good doctor was called when he was alive and it seems that it was 'k.' How could the pronunciation of one man's name have changed so quickly and extensively? Fritz >Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is >exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous >historically. >I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation >on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the >current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy >with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation >(like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot >find any authoritative information on this right now. ―> Doug Wilson From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 21:33:36 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:33:36 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby Message-ID: Ironic that this post about John McGraw should come right now. Just one minute ago I sent a message about John McLoughlin and while looking up his entry in the Encyclopedia Americana and came across John McGraw's, which I naturally read. No mention of any sign language. Fritz >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 11/07/02 01:14PM >>> a recent column tells the following story: In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with his teammates. John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball today. Stephen Redmond, M.D., Morgan Hill Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled correspondent). extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:50:48 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:50:48 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hasn't our own Peter McGraw written of this pronunciation confusion with ref. to his own name? McGraw/ McGrath/..., as I recall? I suspect the Irish? original had the [x] pronunciation, which changed in English variously to /f/, /th/, or /k/, or was vocalized. Am I on the right track? At 01:28 PM 11/7/2002 -0800, you wrote: >There is considerable controversy about the pronunciation of the name of >the Canadian-turned-American general superintendent of the Hudson's Bay >Company who built Fort Vancouver and has become known as the "Father of >Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only >McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation >that most Portlanders use. The name of the major street in Portland is, >as far as I know, called only that--I have never heard it called by any >other pronunciation (I even remember saying McLouThlin as a kid). However, >the folks at Fort Vancouver and the McLoughlin House (as well as one >version of the Encyclopedia Americana) say McLouKlin. One native >Portlander ranger did admit to me that she has changed to 'K' since she >started working for 'The House.' I did some readings to try to find out >what the good doctor was called when he was alive and it seems that it was >'k.' How could the pronunciation of one man's na! >me have changed so quickly and extensively? >Fritz > > >Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is > >exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous > >historically. > > >I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation > >on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the > >current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy > >with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation > >(like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot > >find any authoritative information on this right now. > >¯> Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:55:45 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:55:45 -0500 Subject: Babel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. . . .) At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: >> >>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is >>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > >Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's >convinced about J's true identity. > >larry From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 22:15:02 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:15:02 -0800 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hebrew root BLL, akkad. bal^alu. 1. moisten, mix 2. confound (of languages) [apparently only used once in this sense in Gen 11.9] derived forms: belil, tebel, tevalul, shavlul. Hebrew root BBL {Bavel} akkad. B^ab-ilu "Gate of God". There is a reduplicated Hebrew form bilbel, balbel "disarange" "mix up" but it is Rabbinic not Biblical. There is also a parallel Arabic form balbala "to mix up, confuse" as in tabalbul al-als[macron]an "confusion of languages". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > > Unproven? In the Hebrew Bible, Babylon is /bavel/ (intervocalic > spirantization...the earlier form would have been /babel/). There's > also a root BL, often reduplicated to BLBL, with meanings associated > with mumbling and confusion. My Hebrew dictionaries are all at home, > so I can't check how old this root is. But I would think a > folk-etymological "just so" story, of the sort the Hebrew Bible is > rife with, would depend on the prior existence of such a root. This > is a totally separate question from that of how the Mesopotamian > place name got its Greek form. I honestly don't remember what the > Assyrian or Babylonian forms of the place name were, but it wouldn't > surprise me if the -on ending came from Greek. > -- > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 22:18:10 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:18:10 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's certainly how I pronounce it. I don't think I've ever met anyone who use the pronunciation McLouKlin. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation that most Portlanders use. From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Nov 7 23:10:33 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:10:33 -0800 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: FWIW Rush Limbaugh on his radio program today used the phrase "gin up" twice as in "The Democrats tried to gin up the African American vote." (This comment is presented purely as a linguistic note." ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:45 AM Subject: Re: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" > Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or > "gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar > phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: > > As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my > writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era > days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in > their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also > took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create > something outside the normal scheme of things. > ________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Nov 7 23:37:24 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:24 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: or why the Shawangunk Mountains are pronounced " Shongum" or why clams in New England are written as Quahogs but pronounced "Quohogs".... ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882) > In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? > > No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is > pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") > came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first > English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then > English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and > no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ > > - Jim Landau. From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Nov 7 23:37:59 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:59 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby In-Reply-To: <200211072114.gA7LECq20212@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: Separating fact from fancy in baseball lore is often impossible. But this one has more than usual dose of truth to it. According to my copy of _Total Baseball_, 4th ed., 1995, Luther Haden "Dummy" Taylor (b. 1875, d. 1958) played with the NY Giants from 1900-08 (during the '02 season he played 4 games for Cleveland). His career record was 116-106, (.523 pct) and a 2.75 ERA. In 1904 he won 21 games. Only in two seasons (1901 & '02) did he pitch below .500. A respectable record. Taylor was deaf and knew ASL. This much is confirmed. The SF Giants web site says: "Upon assuming the reins of the Giants, McGraw came up with an innovative solution for the problem of what to do with Luther 'Dummy' Taylor, the only deaf-mute person to play in the majors in the 20th century. McGraw made his entire team learn sign language so they could communicate with him, and when they started using the skill in games, the earliest form of 'signs' in baseball." It is plausible and probably likely that McGraw and the team learned some pidgin ASL, rather than gaining fluency in the language. McGraw was a very interesting character. He was fiery and combative and held grudges. There was no 1904 World Series in large part because of McGraw's dislike for the American League president, Ban Johnson. Yet after he retired, he carried around with him a list of all the African-American players he had wanted to recruit but had not been allowed to. His learning ASL would not be out of character, as long as it helped him win ballgames. I did find one amusing story about Taylor signing profanity about an umpire. The umpire noticed and fined Taylor. It turned out that the umpire had a deaf relative and knew enough ASL to understand the gist of Taylor's message. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Arnold Zwicky > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: from Dear Abby > > > a recent column tells the following story: > > In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher > naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in > an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost > a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with > his teammates. > John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous > pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters > to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant > team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was > accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. > That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball > today. > Stephen Redmond, M.D., > Morgan Hill > > Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of > information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled > correspondent). > > extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is > any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 00:42:55 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:42:55 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021107165446.018ed438@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. >. . .) Harold Bloom, author, editor, and literary critic par excellence (and a member of the Yale faculty since time immemorial) has been arguing since the publication of _The Book of J_ (Grove Wiedenfeld, 1990) that the "J author", generally credited with writing most of the interesting parts of the Old Testament, including the best parts of the Torah (first five books), was a woman in the court of David in the 10th c. BC(E). Whence Jim's "her" and "the woman who" below, I assume. Bloom's move was, to put it mildly, not well received by traditional Biblical scholars. Of course for Bloom these traditional scholars are heirs to the heritage of the "P" writer (or priestly redactor), i.e. the bad guy, the anti-poet. Some see Bloom as attempting to disarm the legions of his feminist critics; if so, it didn't work. (I sat in on a faculty seminar he gave here before the book was published, when he was presenting material that he ended up publishing as _Ruin the Sacred Truths_ (1989) and he was quite consistent in his references to the J author as "she" at the time. But maybe he was just practicing.) larry >At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>> >>>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the >>>Chaldees" which is >>>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >>>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >>>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. >> >>Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's >>convinced about J's true identity. >> >>larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 00:47:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:47:14 -0500 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: From "SEITZ IN CHINATOWN" on the American Periodical Series online, in FRANK LESLIE'S POPULAR MONTHLY, May 1893, pg. 0_018: The chief items on the bill of fare furnished by the leading Mott Street establishments can be catalogued thus: Chow Swan Toy--Beef fried with sour cabbage. Chow Mien--Fried vermicelli with strips of pork, celery, onions and spices. Ob Gwan Lob Chong--Sausages made of duck livers and oysters. Ham Dan--Twenty-year-old ducks' eggs in salt. Han Yu--Ten-year-old salt shad. Loong Ah Bo Toy--Dragon-teeth white cabbage. Boo Ob--Boned Duck, stuffed with chestnuts, boiled in wine. Chow Kai Pien--Fried strips of chicken with mushrooms and celery. Chow Ob Jung--Boned ducks' feet boiled and then fried, served with mushrooms and sweetened liquor. Chow Kai Goot--Fried spring chicken. Chow Yu Pien--Sliced fish fried, served with water nuts and bamboo shoots. Chow Pok Ob--Fried pigeon served with mushrooms and celery. Do Foo Bow Yu--Fish stewed in liquor with extract of bean, orange peeling and mushrooms. Chow Chop Swang--Strips of pork, chicken livers and gizzards, and vegetables. Chow Dan--Egg Omelets, a la Chinoise. WIth every dish on the table is supplied a little bowl of sooy, the universal Chinese sauce. It fits everything and is used with everything. (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. When in New York, see the revival of Rodgers & Hammerstein's THE FLOWER DRUM SONG. That's the only place you'll find "chop suey" now--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 00:54:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:54:01 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." A. Murie From self at TOWSE.COM Fri Nov 8 00:55:20 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:55:20 -0800 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. When in New York, see the revival of Rodgers & Hammerstein's THE FLOWER DRUM SONG. That's the only place you'll find "chop suey" now--ed.) Pulldown menu in left sidebar set to Restaurants (Beta) Search: chop suey 140 hits! Cool tool if you're looking for foodie stuff, like which restaurants in San Francisco have foie gras on the menu. Sal -- 3000+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:27:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:27:17 EST Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 2:32:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's > convinced about J's true identity. Only you, so far. Are you interested in my theory that J and CH were the same person, namely King David's first wife Michal? Seriously: Richard Elliott Friedman _Who Wrote the Bible?_ New York: Harper and Row, 1987, ISBN 0-06-097214-9. page 86: "...the J stories are, on the whole, much more concerned with women and much more sensitive to women than are the E stories. There really is nothing in E to compare with the J story of Tamar in Genesis 38. It is not just that the woman Tamar figures in an important way in the story. It is that the story is sympathetic to a wrong done to this woman...This does not make [J] a woman. But it does mean that we cannot by any means be quick to think of [J] as a man." Note that Friedman wrote this ten years before Bloom's "The Book of J" was published. I have never read Bloom and I have no idea whether Bloom got the idea from Friedman. In fact, it is not possible to tell whether Friedman had the idea on his own or was citing an idea that had been around for a while. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:46:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:46:47 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of > Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. > Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." The Lockheed Corporation was founded in 1913 by the brothers Malcolm and Allan Loughead. The spelling was deliberately changed to "Lockheed", probably so customers would know how to pronounce the name of the company. This seems to imply that "Loughead" was pronounced /lock heed/. By the way, the Loughead brothers' first plane was called the "Model G" to hide the fact that it was their first design effort. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:49:14 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:49:14 EST Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:49:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > WIth every dish on the table is supplied a little bowl of sooy, the > universal Chinese sauce. It fits everything and is used with everything. > > (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. I think "sooy" refers to soy sauce rather than to chop suey. Also either "chow mien" has undergone a pronunciation shift in English from /myen/ to /mein/ or your source made a spelling error. - Jim Landau From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Nov 8 02:25:49 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:25:49 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: I wonder how Bloom would respond to the work of Richard Davies (In Search of Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty. The Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism produced the HB. Different schools may have sharee some of the ideologies of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools don't line up closely with JEDP. The Minimalists claim that the HB was written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a history out of which a nation could form. It's pretty obvious what some of the controversy over the Minimalist Hypothesis is about. It's safe to say that the field of biblical scholarship is deeply divided over Minimalist claims. However, the Minimalists pretty much moot the question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. Herb Stahlke > At 4:55 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. > >. . .) > > Harold Bloom, author, editor, and literary critic par excellence (and > a member of the Yale faculty since time immemorial) has been arguing > since the publication of _The Book of J_ (Grove Wiedenfeld, 1990) > that the "J author", generally credited with writing most of the > interesting parts of the Old Testament, including the best parts of > the Torah (first five books), was a woman in the court of David in > the 10th c. BC(E). Whence Jim's "her" and "the woman who" below, I > assume. Bloom's move was, to put it mildly, not well received by > traditional Biblical scholars. Of course for Bloom these traditional > scholars are heirs to the heritage of the "P" writer (or priestly > redactor), i.e. the bad guy, the anti-poet. Some see Bloom as > attempting to disarm the legions of his feminist critics; if so, it > didn't work. (I sat in on a faculty seminar he gave here before the > book was published, when he was presenting material that he ended up > publishing as _Ruin the Sacred Truths_ (1989) and he was quite > consistent in his references to the J author as "she" at the time. > But maybe he was just practicing.) > > larry > > >At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >>At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> > >>>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the > >>>Chaldees" which is > >>>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when > >>>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them > >>>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > >> > >>Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's > >>convinced about J's true identity. > >> > >>larry > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 03:01:21 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:01:21 -0800 Subject: Bha Message-ID: A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used to/between females? Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 03:07:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:07:25 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) In-Reply-To: <004d01c286ce$279730c0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: At 9:25 PM -0500 11/7/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >I wonder how Bloom would respond to the work of Richard Davies (In Search of >Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist >School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or >documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of >the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going >back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty. The >Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism >produced the HB. Different schools may have sharee some of the ideologies >of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools >don't line up closely with JEDP. The Minimalists claim that the HB was >written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a >history out of which a nation could form. It's pretty obvious what some of >the controversy over the Minimalist Hypothesis is about. It's safe to say >that the field of biblical scholarship is deeply divided over Minimalist >claims. However, the Minimalists pretty much moot the question of J's >gender since there would likely have been no J. > >Herb Stahlke > I'm just guessing here, but I think some of that history might be what Bloom and others would attribute to P (for 'priest'). As for the rest, yes, there's a lot of resistance to Bloom (and translator/co-author David Rosenberg)'s claim about the J writer. But it's quite fascinating stuff, whether or not you get convinced. L From douglas at NB.NET Fri Nov 8 04:27:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:27:01 -0500 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) In-Reply-To: <72.258816f8.2afc721a@aol.com> Message-ID: >... either "chow mien" has undergone a pronunciation shift in English from >/myen/ to /mein/ or your source made a spelling error. I think the "mein" is originally what would now usually be transcribed in 'Mandarin' "mian" (4th tone), meaning "flour" (thus "noodle"); an earlier transcription (Wade-Giles) used "mien" and it sounds like "myen" /mjEn/ to me. This could be corrupted to sound like English "main"/"mane" /mein/ maybe. Other 'dialects' have something similar, and it seems to be close to the earlier Chinese pronunciation. However the Cantonese equivalent seems to be "min" (6th tone), which sounds to me like /miin/ or English "mean"/"mien". One might naively speculate that this might be the first-heard form in the US. [The "chow"/"chao" is /tSaw/ or /tsaw/ to my Anglophone ear in various 'dialects'.] In English, written "mien" would seem more felicitous than "mein" in either case. [Since "chao mian" is still conventional for "fried noodles" in Chinese (at least on Chinese-language menus in the US and elsewhere), I think we now see or will soon see a change (back?) to a pronunciation like /tSaw mjEn/ at least within a certain segment of the Anglophone population.] Once somebody 'authoritative' started writing "mein" (even if erroneously) the die would be cast, given the US ignorance of Chinese (even more profound in 1893 than now perhaps). It seems to me that the typical Chi-Am restaurateur in 1893 may not have been highly literate in Chinese or English. The spelling "mein" supports the pronunciation /mein/ by analogy with "rein", "vein", "skein". Conceivably somebody reasoned that "me" /mi/ + "in" /In/ = "mein" would be a good English spelling for the Chinese word. Incidentally, the written character for this "mian" apparently has been officially replaced (some might say "simplified") in the PRC with the common character for "face" which has the same pronunciation ... so now the character does double duty, for "face" and "flour"/"noodle". [So much for the popular notion that the Chinese 'logographic' writing system is valuable for distinguishing between homophones. (^_^)] -- Doug Wilson From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET Fri Nov 8 04:42:58 2002 From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:42:58 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: "Cohog" is the pronunciation that I'm familiar with. I've never heard a quahog called a "quohog." Phil Cleary Boston, MA From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Nov 8 04:51:48 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:51:48 -0800 Subject: Bha Message-ID: benjamin barrett: >A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me >for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an >aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and >Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used >to/between females? there are several variants to be heard in american english. especially in the south, you can hear an ingressive b. all over the place, you can hear a prenasalized mb (similarly, prenasalized Nk in "o.k."). i've never heard an aspirated (that is, murmured) b in "bye". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 14:09:36 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:09:36 -0800 Subject: Bha In-Reply-To: <200211080451.gA84pm625989@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I hear the mba(i) with a weak i at the end a lot, too. I think I hear this from females as well as males. I'll watch more carefully to determine if the m really is missing. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Arnold Zwicky Sent: Thursday, 07 November, 2002 20:52 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bha benjamin barrett: >A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me >for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an >aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and >Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used >to/between females? there are several variants to be heard in american english. especially in the south, you can hear an ingressive b. all over the place, you can hear a prenasalized mb (similarly, prenasalized Nk in "o.k."). i've never heard an aspirated (that is, murmured) b in "bye". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Nov 8 14:46:41 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:46:41 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I thought the DogPile John Smith would do it. Of course you guys don't know me personally, but half the things I say are tongue in cheek or elsewhere. I didn't think a wink would do it. Considered a :{0} though. :) always Lesa Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > #> #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > #> #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > #> # > #> #I don't know. > #> > #> How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be > #> Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? > > [...] > > #Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like > #DogPile John Smith myself. > > There's always the wink ;-) . > > The reason for emoticons is that on the Net, nobody can hear your tone > of voice or see your facial expression or body language. Your question > sounded perfectly straightforward to me, and evidently to Bethany, too. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Fri Nov 8 14:56:29 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:56:29 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing Farv by the announcers. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin > In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > > ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of > > Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. > > Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." > > The Lockheed Corporation was founded in 1913 by the brothers Malcolm and > Allan Loughead. The spelling was deliberately changed to "Lockheed", > probably so customers would know how to pronounce the name of the company. > This seems to imply that "Loughead" was pronounced /lock heed/. > > By the way, the Loughead brothers' first plane was called the "Model G" to > hide the fact that it was their first design effort. > > - Jim Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:19:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:19:39 -0500 Subject: Baseball hand-signs already in 1870s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:24 PM -0600 9/23/09, Gerald Cohen wrote: >>From: "Peter Morris" >>Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:02:52 -0500 >>Subject: RE: [19cBB] origin of baseball signs >> >>It's true that McGraw's Giants tried communicating via sign language for a >>brief time. But signs were being used in baseball as early as the mid-1870s >>and were very common by the 1880s. So the idea that this was the earliest >>use of signs is absurd. Nor was Taylor the only deaf-mute to play in the >>majors in the twentieth century -- Deegan, Hoy, ... Ah, Dummy Hoy. That's the one that was on the tip of my typing finger. The others I hadn't heard of; wonder how many of them were "Dummy X". Times have certainly changed. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:26:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <049801c28737$2a41c6a0$37d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: >Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing >Farv by the announcers. > >Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Nov 8 15:43:49 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:43:49 -0500 Subject: Bha Message-ID: I've heard it too, but with a nasal onset "MmmBhai" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:55:06 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:55:06 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:05:13 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:05:13 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 11/08/02 07:55AM >>> Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 8 16:05:54 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:05:54 -0800 Subject: Bha In-Reply-To: <003601c2873d$a2df6760$90b89b3f@db> Message-ID: This is similar to how my wife imitates the admins at work: "mmhmVaiVai." (Where the V is really bilabial, not labiodental.) This phrase is usually interpreted as a kiss off, and not a normal goodbye. Ed --- David Bergdahl wrote: > I've heard it too, but with a nasal onset "MmmBhai" > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > nicht" > --Albert Einstein __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:08:31 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:08:31 -0800 Subject: Baseball hand-signs already in 1870s Message-ID: I think this raises the question of when the word 'dumb' become (near?) synonomous with 'stupid' instead of simply unable to speak. Fritz Ah, Dummy Hoy. That's the one that was on the tip of my typing finger. The others I hadn't heard of; wonder how many of them were "Dummy X". Times have certainly changed. larry From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Nov 8 16:08:27 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:08:27 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am a native Seattlite and we have joked about pooeyallup since at least the early 80's. It's an odd sounding word with a strange spelling that just begs to be tinkered with. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of FRITZ JUENGLING Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:05 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 11/08/02 07:55AM >>> Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 8 16:41:02 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:41:02 -0500 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, A. Maberry wrote: #On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # #> In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, #> mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: #> #> > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or #> > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima #> > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is #> > this one worldwide? #> #> #> "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it #> passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to #> English but has no other connection with Greek. #Admittedly without looking too hard, I was unable to find anything in #Greek that would be the source for the word "babble". The Hebrew is Babel #of Bavel (Gen. 11.9) so called because God "balal" ("confused") their #languages. According to Gunkel (Genesis, 1910) however, the Cuneiform #etymology is "Bab-il" = "God's gate" that itself might be only a #Semitic/Babylonian popular etymology for a word which may not even be #Semitic in origin. My point being that that word and Gk "barbar-" may well have been of independent origins... and then so might "Berber". -- Mark A. Mandel From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:45:12 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:45:12 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Back in the early 90's the MN Twins and North Stars had two players whose name were spelled the same--Gagne. THe North Stars' guy pronounced his name something like GAHN-yay. Greg Gagne of the Twins was always GAG-nee Fritz >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 11/08/02 07:26AM >>> At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: >Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing >Farv by the announcers. > >Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Nov 8 18:11:16 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:11:16 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 18:50:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:50:58 -0500 Subject: Dungeon Doll; O.T. Yale Cafeteria gets top rating Message-ID: DUNGEON DOLL--On CNN.com right now. Also called "Bondage Barbie." A judge said it's legal, but it's probably sick. --, INTERRUPTED--I'm seeing this in the Winona Ryder stories, but also in other stories. Today's NEW YORK TIMES has "Life, Unplugged." Today's WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Retailers, Interrupted." HARDLINES--"Sectors to really look out for include what retail analysts call the 'hardlines,' things like big-ticket items and consumer electronics." WALL STREET JOURNAL, 8 November 2002, pg. C1, col. 1. O.T.: YALE CAFETERIA--The Weekend WSJ "Phi Beta Cafeteria" story is a must-read. Yale gets four stars. "'If I were a kid, I wouldn't ever leave this place,' said our expert, Glenn Harris from New York's Jane restaurant." Larry Horn and Fred Shapiro never had it so good! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 19:04:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:04:31 -0500 Subject: Yale Cafeteria gets top rating In-Reply-To: <307FE403.47DA3131.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0500 11/8/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >O.T.: YALE CAFETERIA--The Weekend WSJ "Phi Beta Cafeteria" story is >a must-read. Yale gets four stars. "'If I were a kid, I wouldn't >ever leave this place,' said our expert, Glenn Harris from New >York's Jane restaurant." Larry Horn and Fred Shapiro never had it >so good! I don't know how Fred feels, but it makes me wonder about the competition... L From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 8 19:37:17 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:17 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: > > I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from > > which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. > > If it sheds any light on the term's use, would you care to share it > with us? I'd be happy to. The article, just to be clear, is called "A Brief History of Ethnic Cleansing" and it appeared in the Summer 1993 issue of _Foreign Affairs_. Here are some excerpts that may or may not be light-shedding: -------------------------- In 1530 the Confession of Augsburg had explicitly laid down the principle of religious homogeneity as the basis of political order. Cuius regio, eius religio meant in effect that medieval states had begun to shape an orthodox citizenry. Thus by revoking the Edict of Nantes in 1685, France indeed initiated a process of "self-cleansing," as thousands of Protestant Huguenots fled once denied freedom of worship. In this way, the Confession can be considered the ideological cornerstone of modern cleansing, a process only possible in centralized, absolutist states capable of enforcing "purity." -------------------------- Twentieth-century communist ideology introduced yet another type of cleansing, that of economic class. The destruction of propertied classes in Stalinist Russia or Maoist China bore all the markings, including vocabulary, of an "ethnic" cleansing. Marx applied Christian rejection of the Jew, once based on religion but during his time transformed into racialism, to class analysis and the elimination of certain "parasitic" groups. In this way, the patterns of "self-cleansing" established in the Middle Ages had returned yet again, this time manifested in the modern totalitarian state's own mechanism for ensuring "purity," the purge. -------------------------- Only about fifty years ago -- that is within the lifetime of an individual -- Croatian nationalists carried out massacres of Serb civilians in a Nazi puppet state comprising most of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Ustashi, as these nationalists were known, regarded Croatia's more than two million Serbs as a threat to national integrity. The Croatian minister of education, for example, speaking at a banquet in June 1941, remarked that "one-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus meld them into Croats." This policy was officially enunciated later the same month by the governor of western Bosnia, Viktor Gutich. In a speech at Banya Luka, Gutich urged that the city, and all of Croatia, be "thoroughly cleansed of Serbian dirt." From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 8 19:37:42 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:42 -0500 Subject: First use of "gated community" Message-ID: I'm trying to track down the earliest known use of the phrase "gated community." I have a citation from The New York Times on January 26, 1979. However, I also found the following in a US News & World Report article: "Private streets and gated communities may well have been invented in St. Louis--they were known to exist here as early as the 1850s." --"A tourist in my own town," US News & World Report, November 30, 1998 I know this doesn't necessarily mean the phrase "gated community" was around in the 1850s, but it got me thinking that the phrase might be much older than 1979. Any ideas? Thanks. Paul From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 20:20:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:20:54 EST Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 9:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > the work of Richard Davies (In Search of > Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist > School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or > documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of > the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going > back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty[, the] > Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism > produced the HB. The Minimalists claim that the HB was > written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a > history out of which a nation could form. There must be more to the Minimalist School than you describe. The numerous inconsistencies, changes in tone, changes in wording, and repeated accounts argue that the Old Testament is a paste-up of pieces of text from a large number of sources, ranging from the Gilgamesh legend (Noah's Flood) to Akhnaton (one of the psalms) to various historical accounts. Various bits and pieces of the history in the Old Testament can be confirmed from contemporary written sources or archeology. Let's assume that the Old Testament was compiled by a Redactor, or a Redaction Committee, in post-Exilic accounts. Many proponents of JEPD theories will agree to that, e.g. Friedman whom I quoted earlier identifes Ezra as the Redactor. What the Redactor, or Redaction Committee, used was a large accumulation of accounts of varying origins, many of which had to have been created before the Exile and faithfully transmitted (if oral) or available in written copies (if written) since pre-Exilic times. Either your description is incomplete or the Minimalists disagree with everything I have written in the last two paragraphs. I suspect the former. > Different schools may have share[d] some of the ideologies > of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools > don't line up closely with JEDP. the Minimalists pretty much moot the > question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. There must have been schools which disagreed (e.g. Hillel and Shammai of a slightly later era) and which don't line up with JEDP, but that misses the point. It is not difficult to pick out that part of the Pentateuch which uses certain word choices, in particular the use of "JHVH" for the name of the Deity (hence "Jahvist" or "J" for the postulated author). This is the "J Document". Anyone who disagrees with the JEDP hypothesis, as you imply the Minimalists do, has to explain why it is possible to split out the Pentateuch so neatly into J, E, D, and P. Now suppose we admit to the existence of a J Document. Could this document have been created in post-Exilic times? Yes, it could have been. (If so, it still used at least one pre-Exilic source, namely the Gilgamesh cycle.) However, the J Document still deals sympathetically with women in a way E, D, P, and much of the rest of the Old Testament does not. So we still have to deal with the idea that J was a woman (or if J was a committee, that it had women on it.) Perhaps I misunderstand the Minimalists (and by the way, what is it that they are minimalizing?) - Jim Landau From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Nov 8 23:10:54 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:10:54 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: Jim, You're right on both counts. There's much more to the minimalist school than I described and they disagree with most of what you're representing, essentially accurately, as the documentary hypothesis. The name, BTW, was given to them by their critics, I think because of the way scholars like Davies and other minimalize the historical content of the HB. However, going into a lot of detail on the various debates would go pretty far afield even for this list, and so instead I'll refer you to a pretty good web site that lays out nicely the ideas, the arguments, and the major proponents. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0170Minimalism.html Herb Stahlke > In a message dated 11/7/02 9:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > > > the work of Richard Davies (In Search of > > Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist > > School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or > > documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of > > the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going > > back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty[, the] > > Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism > > produced the HB. The Minimalists claim that the HB was > > written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a > > history out of which a nation could form. > > There must be more to the Minimalist School than you describe. The numerous > inconsistencies, changes in tone, changes in wording, and repeated accounts > argue that the Old Testament is a paste-up of pieces of text from a large > number of sources, ranging from the Gilgamesh legend (Noah's Flood) to > Akhnaton (one of the psalms) to various historical accounts. Various bits > and pieces of the history in the Old Testament can be confirmed from > contemporary written sources or archeology. > > Let's assume that the Old Testament was compiled by a Redactor, or a > Redaction Committee, in post-Exilic accounts. Many proponents of JEPD > theories will agree to that, e.g. Friedman whom I quoted earlier identifes > Ezra as the Redactor. What the Redactor, or Redaction Committee, used was a > large accumulation of accounts of varying origins, many of which had to have > been created before the Exile and faithfully transmitted (if oral) or > available in written copies (if written) since pre-Exilic times. > > Either your description is incomplete or the Minimalists disagree with > everything I have written in the last two paragraphs. I suspect the former. > > > > > Different schools may have share[d] some of the ideologies > > of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools > > don't line up closely with JEDP. the Minimalists pretty much moot > the > > question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. > > There must have been schools which disagreed (e.g. Hillel and Shammai of a > slightly later era) and which don't line up with JEDP, but that misses the > point. It is not difficult to pick out that part of the Pentateuch which > uses certain word choices, in particular the use of "JHVH" for the name of > the Deity (hence "Jahvist" or "J" for the postulated author). This is the "J > Document". Anyone who disagrees with the JEDP hypothesis, as you imply the > Minimalists do, has to explain why it is possible to split out the Pentateuch > so neatly into J, E, D, and P. > > Now suppose we admit to the existence of a J Document. Could this document > have been created in post-Exilic times? Yes, it could have been. (If so, it > still used at least one pre-Exilic source, namely the Gilgamesh cycle.) > However, the J Document still deals sympathetically with women in a way E, D, > P, and much of the rest of the Old Testament does not. So we still have to > deal with the idea that J was a woman (or if J was a committee, that it had > women on it.) > > Perhaps I misunderstand the Minimalists (and by the way, what is it that they > are minimalizing?) > > - Jim Landau > From jpparker at ISERV.NET Fri Nov 8 23:53:47 2002 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:53:47 -0500 Subject: Tenderize In-Reply-To: <200211080451.gA84pm625989@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: on 11/7/02 afternoon todd munt show a marketing type guy used the word *tenderize* to discribe influencing panhellenic group members to moderate binge drinking via some online/telephone service. I have never heard of this usage. I would like to know where on the web do I go see the most complete list of meanings for a word etc. thank you jane p parker > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Nov 9 00:20:07 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:20:07 -0600 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: It may be partially explained by the fact that Puyallup has a heavy bedroom presence from adjacent Ft. Lewis and McChord AFB. Both the parents and their neighbors may well not have been native there. I've been amused by the spelling of given names and have concluded that it seems most likely that the parents didn't spell well.. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 00:33:52 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:33:52 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: that could be it! Fritz > It may be partially explained by the fact that Puyallup has a heavy bedroom > presence from adjacent Ft. Lewis and McChord AFB. Both the parents and > their neighbors may well not have been native there. > > I've been amused by the spelling of given names and have concluded that it > seems most likely that the parents didn't spell well.. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 02:37:20 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:37:20 EST Subject: Chat room Message-ID: In a message dated 10/13/2002 1:56:25 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". - Jim Landau (who thought he had joined a mailing list) >> There is a great deal of empirical evidence in support of this theory, imho. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 02:50:18 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:50:18 EST Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? I wonder how this happened--or am I missing something? From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 03:07:59 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:07:59 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882) origin Message-ID: Here's what Mathews has to say in the DA page 690: No doubt from a Nisqualli Indian term meaning "dig deep." See Webster s.v. _gweduc_. In _Natural History_. April 1948, 190, the name is said to be based on that of a certain John F. Gowey. The pronunciation given here is the one said to be correct on p. 163 of the magazine cited, but _Cent. Supp., s.v. goeduk_, has ['goid^k]. Of course, this still does not answer the question of why it is spelled as it is. Fritz Juengling From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 9 03:56:48 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:56:48 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #> The prima #> facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is #> this one worldwide? # #You may be right about onomatopoeia but your suggested evidence is tricky. #If "babble" occurs in a number of languages, then it is probably due to the #Book of Genesis, which is known worldwide. That depends on a whole lot of things. F'rinstance, if (and I have no idea) Sanskrit contains a word like "babble" and meaning about the same, it is probably not from a Biblical source. I don't KNOW about any of this; I was suggesting an alternative origin for "Berber" to the "barbaros" source that someone (sorry, don't remember who) posited, and pointing to a possible line of inquiry. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Nov 9 03:52:56 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:52:56 -0500 Subject: Sexy "th" Message-ID: There is a phenomenon I have noticed for years, sort out of the corner of my mind. Most people form the "th" sounds by placing the tip of the tongue against the back of the teeth. As I talk through it, it can be the upper teeth or the upper and lower teeth together. Occasionally, though, I notice people making the sound by extending the tongue beyond the teeth, sticking it out slightly, visibly. Here's the MCP part. I have noticed this only in women, and particularly attractive women, more particularly women who have an investment in their attractiveness. Perhaps it is selective observation -- I may look more closely at attractive women. In fact, I know I do. But I have never observed this in men. The physical pronunciation characteristics, that is, not the part about looking at attractive women. In fact, I think I noticed this first in beauty contest winners being interviewed, and I think there may be a higher incidence in this unique cohort. Watch them say, "Thank you" (which they say a lot). The tongue very often protrudes. Is this manner of pronouncing the "TH' sounds specific to women? Has anyone observed it in men? D From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Nov 9 05:35:10 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:35:10 -0800 Subject: Sexy "th" Message-ID: duane campbell asks about actually (protruding) interdental theta in english. somewhere peter ladefoged suggests that this is a specifically american variant, and he has a photo of a man with this sort of production. he'd be the person to ask, certainly. i myself have this variant, but i suppose i fall under the gay exemption clause. but my guess is it's not sex-linked. arnold From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 9 06:30:41 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:30:41 -0500 Subject: "Dutchman" Message-ID: John Landau brought up this word, meaning in stagecraft "a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps in the stage set, and to apply same," and generally (beyond the stage) as "a device for hiding or counteracting structural defects." I found confirmation of the first at one of the online glossaries, which defined it somewhat more specifically as, "tape or material used to cover the seams between flats, prior to painting." I questioned a stage-manager friend, who confirms the term as I found it online and says that, "It can be a verb also, as in, 'Those two flats need to be dutchmanned'." He adds that the word is "not used much anymore." I also queried a filmmaker friend. No use of the term in that field, but he volunteers that, in another use of the word "dutch" to denote things not quite regular, odd camera slants used in some films have been referred to as "dutch angles." This term, too, seems not to be in much current use. No one had any ideas as to origin. --DS From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sat Nov 9 11:09:54 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:09:54 +0100 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: James McDonald, A Dictionary of Obscenity, Taboo and Euphemism, (Sphere Books Ltd, Penguin, 1988) has the following on MERKIN: "_A pubic wig_. These items still exist, although they are not so much in demand as they were in previous centuries. They were especially popular when the usual treatment for venereal disease involved shaving off the pubic hair. The word is a variation of _Malkin_. Though it is now little used, is was a common female name for over a thousand years. Although the word is not as well known as it once was, it is far from obsolete. In the film _Dr Strangelove_ the name of the president of the USA was chosen with some care; he was called _Merkin Muffley_." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 3:50 AM Subject: MERKIN in the OED > I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History > of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is > 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in > Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that > a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. > > Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? > > I wonder how this happened--or am I missing something? > From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Nov 9 12:38:16 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:38:16 -0000 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: > Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? Possibly not, but they seem to have done in the Middle East. Thus the OED has: 1886 R. F. Burton tr. Arabian Nights' Entertainments X. 239 For the use of men they have the 'merkin', a heart-shaped article of thin skin stuffed with cotton and slit with an artificial vagina There is also this recent variant: 1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she is a lesbian Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Nov 9 14:02:57 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:02:57 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When the redoubtable "Dandy" Don Merideth was a Monday Night Football regular, he noted that Danny Abramowicz had just been featured in a play. Don stumbled and then called him "Danny Alphabets." My personal favorite. dInIs At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing Farv by the announcers. Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Nov 9 14:11:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:11:31 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <200211081811.gA8IBGF10967@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I'm with you arnold; if I hadn'a heard it, I'da said /piKAbo/ or even /pIKAbo/ (caps = stressed syllable except for /I/, the vowel of HIT). dInIs i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 9 17:51:49 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:51:49 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <10e.19e3313b.2afdd1ea@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 09:50:18PM -0500, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History > of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is > 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in > Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that > a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. The main definition is, in fact, artificial hair for the female genitalia. the 'artificial vagina' sense is given after an "Also", and is less common, but it exists; the R. F. Burton example attests it. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 18:34:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:34:05 -0500 Subject: Windy City (17 June 1883); CINCY ENQUIRER baseball (1883) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress. It's closed on Monday, so I thought I'd check for a "Windy City" and baseball items in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. I'd found an ENQUIRER "Windy City" citation, reprinted in the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, from October 1883. WINDY CITY 17 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 2: WHILE the failure of McGeoch in Chicago yesterday created something of a pnaic in the Windy City by the lake and other speculative villages, all was serene in Cincinnati. THEY'RE OFF! 17 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 5: Crowds pressed into Sheepshead race-course to-day after the cry "They're off!" arose from 10,000 voices when the horses started in the first race. SACRIFICE HIT 11 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: In a communication to American SPorts correspondent is thus snesibly answered on the subject of the much-talked-of sacrifice hits... WHITEWASH 10 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4: THEIR FIRST WHITEWASH. (3-0 score--ed.) ELECTRIC LIGHTS 2 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: BASE BALL BY ELECTRIC LIGHT. SPECIAL DISPATCH TO THE ENQUIRER. FORT WAYNE, IND., June 1--THis evening the second test of playing base-ball by electric light was made on the local grounds in the presence of quite a number of persons, and proved quite a success. UMPIRE MASK 27 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 10, col. 3: THIS is the way a New York paper roasts an association umpire: "What on earth makes Kelly wear a mask while umpiring? It would be impossible to spoil that mug of his, even if his breath did fail to change the course of the ball, which is hardly probable." JONAH 25 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 5: ARE brass-bands "Jonahs?" (Many other hits for "Jonah"--ed.) DAISY 20 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 11, col. 6: In the third inning McCormick made a daisy three-bagger. PONY TEAM 19 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 6: The fact that several of the directors have been out once or twice this week watching the "pony" team practice, and have requested Welhe to play right, seemed to indicate that somebody would get a vacation. GOOSE EGG 18 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 2: "A Michigan goose-egg, laid by a Michigan goose and sent by a Michigander."--Boston Globe. (7-0 score in Chicago-Detroit game--ed.) SLUGGING 17 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4: A GOOD SLUGGING GAME. MUFF 9 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: Maccius, their second man at the bat in this inning, was given first on Maculiar's muff of his fly. (I don't have Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY here at the LOC to check these terms, but I thought I'd record them now--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 20:04:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:04:58 -0500 Subject: Aku, Mahimahi (1836); Scampo (1890) Message-ID: MAHIMAHI A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE by Lorrin Andrews Lahainaluna: Press of the High School 1836 A classic book. I was looking for "tuna." There's a lot more here, but I'll torch DARE and OED on just "aku" and "mahimahi." Pg. 8: A-KU, _s._ a species of fish called boneta. Pg. 89: LU-A, _s._ a pit, a hole, a grave, den. (...) LU-AU, _s._ the petal of a plant, boiled herbs. Pg. 93: MA-HI-MA-HI, _s._ a species of fish. Pg. 120: PO-I, _s._ the paste or pudding made of kalo, potatoes, or breadfruit. It is made by baking the above articles and afterward peeling and pounding them with more or less water and when fermented it is eaten cold with the fingers. --------------------------------------------------------------- SCAMPO HANDBOOK OF THE MEDITERRANEAN: ITS CITIES, COASTS AND ISLANDS by Lieut.-Col. Sir R. Lambert Playfair Third Edition, Revised In Two Parts London: John Murray 1890 This book is recorded as "missing" in NYPL's CATNYP. I haven't looked at the first two editions. There's not much food here, but it does have "scampi." Merriam-Webster has that from 1925, and OED from 1928 and 1930. O.T.: I'd like to add that neither OED nor M-W pays for this cheap bus ride to Washington. It's paid for by my listening to New York City's great citizens submit fake repair bills to excuse their parking tickets. I must have had 20 liars before me yesterday! PART II Pg. 300, col. 1: The fish-market is worthy of a visit. A specialite of Fiume in the way of fish is the so-called "Scampo" (_Nephrops Norvegicus_), a delicious kind of crayfish, from 4 to 8 in. in length. It is found in the deeper parts of the Quarnero, where fresh-water springs abound, but is not met with elsewhere in the Adriatic. It is caught by the Italian trawling-boats, _bragozzi_, which fish off these shores in winter. Tunny and mackerel, anchovy and pilchards, are the chief produce of summer fishing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 20:29:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0500 Subject: Kahuna, Moi, Ono, Opelu (Re: Aku, Mahimahi (1836)) Message-ID: On second thought, he's a few more words from this 1836 book, A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE, by Lorrin Andrews: Pg. 8: A-KU-LE, _s._ a species of fish. Pg. 27: O-NO, _v._ to be or become sweet, to relish as food, to have a sweet taste, to be savory. Pg. 28: O-PE-LU, _s._ a species of fish, mackerel. Pg. 61: KA-HU-NA, _s._ general name of one who has a trade or practices a profession; _kahuna pule_, a priest; _kahuna lapaau_, a physician; _kahuna kalai laau_, a carpenter, &c.; _kahuna kala_, a silversmith. KA-HU-NA, _v._ to exercise a profession, to work at the appropriate business of one. KA-HU-NA-AO, _s._ a preacher, a pulpit teacher. KA-HU-NA-LA-PA-AU, _s._ _kahuna_ and _lapaau_ to heal; a doctor, a physician. Pg. 62: KA-HU-NA-PU-LE, _s._ _kahuna_ and _pule_ prayer; a priest, one who publicly officiates in the exercises of religion. KA-HU-NA-PE-LE, _s._ the priest or priestess of _Pele_. Pg. 102: MO-I, _s._ a species of fish. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 21:07:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:07:17 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) Message-ID: THE CANOE AND THE SADDLE, OR KLALAM AND KLICKATAT By THEODORE WINTHROP TO WHICH ARE NOW FIRST ADDED HIS WESTERN LETTERS AND JOURNALS edited by John H. Williams Tacoma: John H. Williams 1913 THE CANOE AND THE SADDLE first appeared in 1862. The following is from a letter. Pg. 257 Vancouver, July 12th, 1853 (...) Pg. 261: A few houses make Olympia a thriving lumbering village, cleared from the woods, with stumps in the main street. Plenty of "Ostend" oysters and large, queer clams.* Puget Sound terminates here in a point, spreading below to a great lake with low banks, thick with firs. *The native oysters of the Sound are small and not unlike in flavor to those of the British Channel, which Winthrop has in mind. They are greatly esteemed by epicures, but fashion has dictated the transplanting of seed of the larger eastern oysters from the Atlantic coast beds. These ripen perfectly, but do not propagate, in the shallow bays at the head of the Sound and on the coast. The clams of Puget Sound have a wide reputation for their abundance and excellence. The "large, queer clams" mentioned by Winthrop are the "geoducks," which weigh several pounds, and are edible. The Puget Sound clam was the subject of a celebrated _bon mot_ by the late Francis W. Cushman, of Tacoma, representative in Congress and the wit of the lower house. Cushman was a Republican, and his best speeches were in support of the tariff. "Our friends the enemy," he said in one of these, "are welcome, if they wish, to return to the lean panic years of the Nineties; but as for me and my constituents, we want no more hard times. We remember too well those sad years on Puget Sound, where we had nothing to live upon but clams. When the tide was out the table was spread. We dug clams, and ate clams, till our stomachs rose and fell with the tide!" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 9 21:29:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:29:51 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <000a01c287ec$e2c2e410$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: At 12:38 PM +0000 11/9/02, Jonathon Green wrote: > >There is also this recent variant: > >1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a >straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may >be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she >is a lesbian > For a female's beard. Very cute. (Presumably, like the default beard, it could also refer to a man who escorts a lesbian on a given night out, not necessarily a man who's married to or seriously involved with a lesbian. The deception is the key part.) I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 9 21:40:24 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:40:24 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:11 AM -0500 11/9/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I'm with you arnold; if I hadn'a heard it, I'da said /piKAbo/ or even >/pIKAbo/ (caps = stressed syllable except for /I/, the vowel of HIT). > > >dInIs > >i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" >Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. > >arnold > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. larry From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sat Nov 9 22:13:16 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:13:16 +1000 Subject: Sexy "th In-Reply-To: <200211090505.gA955DAJ026574@mailhub2.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: On Duane Campbell's comment on female interdental or advanced interdental "th" rather than dental: this is common in European Spanish (non-southern dialects and the standard) and in Greek, in speakers of both genders. -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 01:34:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:34:30 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <7EC733FE.02ED3447.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # The Puget Sound clam was the subject of a celebrated _bon mot_ by #the late Francis W. Cushman, of Tacoma, representative in Congress and #the wit of the lower house. Cushman was a Republican, and his best #speeches were in support of the tariff. "Our friends the enemy," he #said in one of these, "are welcome, if they wish, to return to the #lean panic years of the Nineties; but as for me and my constituents, #we want no more hard times. We remember too well those sad years on #Puget Sound, where we had nothing to live upon but clams. When the #tide was out the table was spread. We dug clams, and ate clams, till #our stomachs rose and fell with the tide!" Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 05:07:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:07:08 EST Subject: Monkey Business (1882), Mascotte, Mask, and more Message-ID: I'm back in New York. It would be nice to have the time to go through four years (1879-1882) of the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. Baseball sportswriting really began there. WINDY CITY (another citation) 28 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: A NINE composed of members of the St. Louis Board of Trade played a similar organization from the Chicago Board in the latter city last Tuesday, and badly defeated the Windy City merchants by a score of 35 to 4 in five innings. (I'll find out more when I check out the online CHICAGO TRIBUNE and WASHINGTON POST, but think about this. The "Windy CIty" in the NEW YORK TIMES goes back to only 1886. I didn't see it very early in other New York City publications. It's in a Cleveland, Ohio publication in 1885 on the American Memory database. It was used in the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL, and now it's in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. Louisville? CIncinnati?--ed.) MONKEY BUSINESS 13 June 1882, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 2: THERE are intimations by cable that ARABI PASHA has been pracitcing what would be called among the "boys" in America "monkey business;" that he has been pretending to be thrashed when he wasn't;... (The RHHDAS has 1883 for "monkey business"--ed.) MASCOTTE 26 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: ...Porkopolitans... The goat was probably looking for some show-bills, oyster-cans, or some other usually palatable dish for his stomach, but the audience could not see it in that light, and thought he was even a better "Mascotte" than the old-time favorite. JONAH, GOAT 27 June 1883, CINCINATTI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: Those of a superstituous of mind, who were inclined to attribute the defeat of Monday to the "Jonah" billy-goat, have no opening to lay the disastrous finale of yesterday's game to any such cause, for the innocent object of their superstituous fears was captured, and while the game was in progress was pinioned to a post under the bleaching-boards with a chain large enough to hold a Jumbo. MASK 14 July 1882, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 5: CAREY, one of the American Association umpires, wears a mask. (DICKSON'S BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1887 for "mask"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 05:22:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:22:31 EST Subject: Washington Post online in Columbia University, LOC? Message-ID: I queried both Columbia University and the Library of Congress about WASHINGTON POST online, which ProQuest told me was now available. Neither has it yet. The WASHINGTON POST, of course, has important political reporting. It also has some good early sports (baseball) reporting, and better early food & drink articles (PA Dutch? Baltimore Crab Cakes?) than the NEW YORK TIMES. COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY: Dear Mr. Popik, Thank you for your inquiry about the Washington Post via Historical Newspapers. As "resource coordinator" for the Historical Newspapers database, I am currently discussing the Washington Post with Proquest and communicating with my colleagues about purchasing the database. While we are very interested in the Washington Post, I cannot tell you when we will be adding it to our collection. There are variables in the decision making and purchasing process that make it difficult to say when a product will be up and running. I appreciate your input - requests from patrons are an important part of our collection development process. I would be happy to send you a follow-up email in the near future when I have more concrete information. Best, Jim Galbraith Electronic Services and Reference Librarian Business and Economics Library 212-854-5467 jg2140 at columbia.edu LIBRARY OF CONGRESS: Dear Barry Popik, Thank you for your use of the QuestionPoint Service. Question ID: 41399 Question: ProQuest Historical Newspapers now offers full text online searching of the WASHINGTON POST. Do you get it? Can I use it on Saturday (tomorrow)? Librarian Reply: We have budgeted FY03 funds to purchase a subscription to ProQuest Historical Newspapers file of the Washington Post. Since Congress has not yet passed appropriations to cover legislative branch activities, the Library hasn't yet issued a purchase order. We do have access to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. We regret we can't help you at this time--but soon we will be providing access to this valuable online file. Good luck with your research. Lyle W. Minter, Head, Newspaper and Current Periodical Room Library of Congress From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Nov 10 07:14:09 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:14:09 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. > > BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! The song "Acres of clams" was made popular by Seattle restaurant owner and philanthropist Ivar Haglund. The Washington state song is the completely forgettable "Washington, my home". However there was a very spirited campaign about 20 years ago to adopt "Louie, Louie" as the state song. Unfortunately, IMHO, the campaign failed. The spelling "geoduck" remains a mystery. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Nov 10 08:08:47 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:08:47 -0500 Subject: Idiolect speakers Message-ID: Hi all linguists, This is a recurring theme in my experience, but it will never get flogged to death. Without doing violence to theoretical lingustics, I would like to pass on an interesting opinion received from the Ontario Human Rights Commission. In 1985, after The Native Speaker Is Dead! came out and was reviewed in journals worldwide (also published in a Japanese translation), my chief collaborator on the book, the late Prof. Paul Christophersen of Cambridge, England, sent me several clippings of ads for English language teachers, editors, etc. by public agencies that had switched to terms like "first language user" to avoid using "native speaker". Formerly want ads would say "Only native speakers need apply" or words to that effect. Personally, I consider "native speaker" somewhat exclusionary ("elitist, if not racist" is how one of the participants in the above discussion put it). Since this discussion would be digressive in the paper I am giving at the Atlanta ADS, I add an end note to this exchange. TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net From: Reema_Khawja/OHRC.ON.CA at OHRC.ON.CA To: t.paikeday at sympatico.ca Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:38 PM Subject: "native speaker" Dear Mr. Paikeday, I am writing in response to your e-mail of October 29, 2002 in which you ask whether it is acceptable to ask if a candidate for an English-language editor position if he/she is a "native speaker". Ontario Human Rights Commission staff do not give opinion or advice on any specific situation or its compliance with the law. However, I can offer the following comment based on the Ontario Human Rights Code (the "Code") and the Commission's Policy on Discrimination and Language (available on our web site: www.ohrc.on.ca). As you know, the Code does not include "language" as a prohibited ground of discrimination. However, the Code does prohibit discrimination on the basis of ancestry, ethnic origin and place of origin, all of which can be linked to language. The Policy on Discrimination and Language notes that discrimination based on "mother tongue" can be discrimination on the basis of ancestry, ethnic origin or place of origin. A similar argument can be made for discrimination based on whether someone is a "native speaker" which also appears to be directly linked to ancestry, ethnic origin or place of origin. In other words, while the Commission has not specifically contemplated the term "native speaker", the analysis in the Policy on Discrimination and Language applied to "mother tongue" appears equally applicable. Making a distinction on the basis of "mother tongue" or "native speaker" will not likely be permitted unless the requirement can be shown to be a reasonable and bona fide (i.e. genuine) requirement of the job. This means that the requirement must bear an objective relationship to the essential requirements of the job. The employer must be able to demonstrate with concrete, and not impressionistic, evidence that this is a genuine job requirement that cannot be fulfilled by those who are not "native speakers". In addition, individualized assessment should be used. In other words, in the unlikely circumstance it can be shown that being a "native speaker" is a legitimate requirement, an opportunity should still be provided to someone who does not meet this requirement to demonstrate that he/she nevertheless can perform the job. The information I have provided is a policy staff opinion based on the Code and Commission policies. It should not be viewed as legal advice. If a complaint is received in relation to this matter, it will be processed in accordance with the Commission's usual procedures. Sincerely, Reema Khawja Senior Policy Analyst ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reema Khawja, Senior Policy Analyst Ontario Human Rights Commission, Policy and Education Branch 180 Dundas Street West, 8th Floor Toronto, ON M7A 2R9 Phone: (416) 314-4551 Fax: (416) 314-4533 reema.khawja at ohrc.on.ca MY E-MAIL OF OCT. 29: info at ohrc.ont.ca If I may ask a question apparently not covered by your Human Rights Guide: When recruiting English-language editors, is it all right to ask a candidate if he/she is a "native speaker" of English? Professors of linguistics consider the native speaker as the arbiter or grammaticality and acceptability in language use, as in Noam Chomsky's "Sentences generated will have to be acceptable to the native speaker" (Syntactic Structures). The term is not defined in most dictionaries because the meaning is supposed to be transparent and self-explanatory. But it is really more confusing than "mother tongue," etc. which you find in all dictionaries. A variant of the question may be "Is your mother tongue English?" which, I am sure, will strike you as discriminatory. That is how someone hiring an editor might rephrase the question if a candidate countered with "What is a native speaker?" My question, of course, is not about "mother tongue" but about "native speaker" and the concept behind it. I thought it would be interesting to find out if you have dealt with this issue and whether there has been a ruling on the subject. Personally I consider it an exclusionary term like "outsider," "stranger," "gentile," "foreigner," etc. Compare "No Irish need apply." I could use your answer in a paper I am giving to the annual meeting of the American Dialect Society. Many thanks in anticipation. Sincerely, T. M. PAIKEDAY -------------------------------- END NOTE: When someone claims "I am a native speaker of English," it raises the question, What English? (A language may be thought of as an abstract entity, but it exists in reality as used by people). Surely you cannot speak every dialect of English from Australian to Zimbabweyan? That would be "speaking in tongues" or a refined kind of glossolalia. A more correct answer might be, OK, I am a native speaker of American English. But do you natively speak all varieties of American English? No, just the variety I learned to speak in adolescence (The new Oxford dictionaries say, "from earliest childhood" which sounds a bit far-fetched). But if you are a native speaker of a specific variety, say Appalachian English, isn't what you use your own individual vocabulary, pronunciation style, usage, etc. which sets you apart from other speakers of Appalachian English and which you probably leave behind (like the robe you lounge in) when you speak in public? So let us say you are a native speaker of your idiolect, a customized version of the language you picked up at home. As Chomsky said in 1985, "So then, what is a language and who is a native speaker? Answer, a language is a system L-s, it is the steady state attained by the language organ. And everyone is a native speaker of the particular L-s that that person has "grown" in his/her mind/brain. In the real world, that is all there is to say." Which in my humble opinion is not saying very much for those who claim they are native speakers of English. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Nov 10 11:23:46 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:23:46 -0000 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: >I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a > gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. > > larry > A 'false' beard, and thus a 'disguise', perhaps? The obvious answer, I acknowledge, but possibly true. Jonathon Green From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sun Nov 10 12:13:51 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:13:51 -0600 Subject: MERKIN in the OED & old joke Message-ID: If we can mention blow up dolls. does anyone remember the old joke that goes: Visitor to New York visits a wig store, see some very small wigs and askabout them. Clerk explains that they are merkins and show people and prostituts wear them on their days off. Visitor, "I'll take a redhead and a blond" "Shall I wrap them" "No, I'll eat them here" From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 16:20:23 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:20:23 EST Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2002 6:22:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > >I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service > > for a gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. [from "Larry"] > > A 'false' beard, and thus a 'disguise', perhaps? The obvious answer, I > acknowledge, but possibly true. I have seen this meaning of beard in a heterosexual and therefore probably more plausible context. According to a newspaper story a few years ago when some Congressman got a lot of bad publicity for hiring his girlfriend, the normal way for a prominent man to take his secret girlfriend to public events is to have a second man, known as a "beard" presumably because of the false-beard analogy. The beard and the girlfriend pose as a couple with the prominent man posing as the couple's guest. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 16:23:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:23:05 EST Subject: Geoduck (1853?) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/09/2002 8:35:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called "Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, "Rosin the bow!") - Jim Landau From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 10 17:41:24 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:41:24 -0500 Subject: Geoduck & "Acres of Clams" Message-ID: Jim Landau asks, >> Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also >> called "Rosin the Beau"? Yes. The words to "Acres of Clams" (a/k/a "The Old Settlers' Song"), according to Edith Fowke and Joe Glazer, were written by Judge Francis D. Henry. The tune, from Ireland, was also used for the ballad "Men of the West" and, in this country, for the rousing campaign song "Lincoln and Liberty Too." --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 18:02:21 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:02:21 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <16c.16e1d3c3.2affe1e9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #In a message dated 11/09/2002 8:35:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the #> state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. # #Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called #"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, #"Rosin the bow!") AocC is ttto (to the tune of) RtB. But the words of RtB are definitely "Beau", though I'm sure there's an intentional pun. "... to welcome old Rosin the Beau!" -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 21:58:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:58:22 -0500 Subject: Kazoo (HARPER'S WEEKLY, July 1884) Message-ID: I was searching for "geoduck," but while I was on strange words, I thought I'd give "kazoo" a blast. This small antedate (OED has October 1884) is from HARPER'S WEEKLY, page 488: Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912 Return to: Main Menu | New Search -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 84-07-26 KAZOO FACTS. "What is the Kazoo!" "The great- est Musical Wonder ever invented. Plays any tune, imitates any Bird or Animal, Bagpipes and Punch and Judy." "When used by Min- strel and Specialty Artists, Quartettes or Cho- fuses, does it receive repeated encores?" "Invariably." "Does it fer- nish good dancing music?" "Yes." "Can all young or old quickly learn its use without instruction?" "Yes." "Is it superior to anything else for Campaign Clubs in street parades, & c.?" "Yes." "Used as a mouthpiece on brass or tin horns, is the music good?" "Yes, and the keys require no fingering." "Are the sales and profits satisfactory in stores, street and news stands, at Fairs, Races. Pleasure Resorts, on Railroad trains, Steamers, & c.?" "The largest on record." Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents. Geo. D. Smith , sole proprietor, 53 State Street, Rochester, N. Y. Pianos, Organs, Music. Branch 352, Main Street, Buffalo, N. Y. Mention this paper. (KAZOO WITH WHIP??--ed.) From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:30:00 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:30:00 -0600 Subject: Re.: Kazoo Message-ID: "....Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents." Okay, I'll bite. What is up with having a whip or a cane attached to your kazoo? Maybe I am just not imaginative enough? Or maybe I just haven't run into "that kind" of kazoo? -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:33:25 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:33:25 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? Message-ID: Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie #Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called #"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, #"Rosin the bow!") From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 23:34:04 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:34:04 -0500 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Millie Webb wrote: #Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled #"resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are #alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle #games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie # ##Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called ##"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, ##"Rosin the bow!") For this song, at least, the title is definitely "Rsin the Beau". -- Mark A. Mandel From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:54:21 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:54:21 -0600 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where > this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo > (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the > time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for > peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this > point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves > it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I > take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. > > larry > And the big question? What kind of flaky "emeriti hippies" don't get around to naming their child until she is a toddler and well into the "peekaboo" stage? :-) :-) We live in Madison, Wisconsin, and until we had lived here through a football season (we moved here in mid December), I had no idea Brett Favre spelled his name like that. I had heard most "Farr", and only occasionally "Farv", with the "v" very "lightly" pronounced. With my darling husband now more addicted to televised football than he has ever been before (he never used to care who did what if Michigan was not playing), I have heard the "Farv" with the more obvious "v" a bit more often. At our son's school, on our first day in Madison, we found that a K-1 combination classroom had a guinea pig named "Brett Farr", and I had never heard of him before, so I had no idea it was spelled "F-a-v-r-e". Now, the hockey and baseball question of "G-a-g-n-e" I could have commented on long ago.... From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:58:10 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:58:10 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? Message-ID: Yup, I know it an "o" in the song, it was the "e" or "o" in the musical instrument preparation context that I was asking about. Thanks though. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Resin or rosin? > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Millie Webb wrote: > > #Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled > #"resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are > #alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle > #games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie > # > ##Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called > ##"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, > ##"Rosin the bow!") > > For this song, at least, the title is definitely "Rsin the Beau". > > -- Mark A. Mandel > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Nov 11 00:06:30 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:06:30 -0500 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: >Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" >relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Bow rosin for stringed insruments is a product refined from resin. Probably the rosin used in various sports, e.g., baseball, gymnastics, is also. A. Murie From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Nov 11 00:14:13 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:14:13 -0600 Subject: Kazoo Message-ID: Is this from a novelty catalog from 1880 to 1930? In the novelty business, cheap "musical" instruments were made with pull out multi folded paper devices, shaped like fans, flags etc. perhaps this is what they are referring to. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Millie Webb" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: Re.: Kazoo "....Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents." Okay, I'll bite. What is up with having a whip or a cane attached to your kazoo? Maybe I am just not imaginative enough? Or maybe I just haven't run into "that kind" of kazoo? -- Millie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 01:48:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:48:41 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <00b501c28914$7d62bf90$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0600 11/10/02, Millie Webb wrote: > > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where >> this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo >> (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the >> time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for >> peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this >> point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves >> it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I >> take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. >> >> larry >> > >And the big question? What kind of flaky "emeriti hippies" don't get around >to naming their child until she is a toddler and well into the "peekaboo" >stage? :-) :-) I think it had something to do with her being old enough to have developed enough character to make it possible to choose an appropriate name. After all, if her favorite game as a toddler had been 5-card stud and they lived near Poker Gulch, they would have named her Poker. (Or perhaps Poquer.) >We live in Madison, Wisconsin, and until we had lived here through a >football season (we moved here in mid December), I had no idea Brett Favre >spelled his name like that. I had heard most "Farr", and only occasionally >"Farv", with the "v" very "lightly" pronounced. Is that regional, or just a case of the labiodental being effectively swallowed after the /r/, i.e. rendered inaudible though still articulated? Is there really a regional dimension for "Farr" vs. "Farv"? In case any non-football fans are wondering, Favre is from Cajun country in Louisiana and went to college in Mississippi. So the name is legitimately French; I don't know if the metathesis is something practiced down there as well as in Wisconsin, or if he was /favr(@)/ chez lui. For a southern boy he's adapted very well, having never lost a game when the temperature drops below 40 degrees, which it does rather often in Green Bay, and he's started more consecutive games by far(v) than any other quarterback in history. larry From pds at VISI.COM Mon Nov 11 03:01:20 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:01:20 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: The stuff in my viola case is labeled "Pirastro Goldflex Rosin". At 05:33 PM 11/10/2002 -0600, you wrote: >Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 03:56:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:56:16 -0500 Subject: Aku, Mahimahi (1836); Scampo (1890) In-Reply-To: <07C276FF.47912E7D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 03:04:58PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > MAHIMAHI > > A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE > by Lorrin Andrews > Lahainaluna: Press of the High School > 1836 > > A classic book. I was looking for "tuna." There's a lot > more here, but I'll torch DARE and OED on just "aku" and > "mahimahi." I know we've discussed before the question of what makes a word "English" as opposed to "foreign", and I've said that it's often hard to judge because there's a continuum involved, but this is a case where it seems pretty clear that the words in question are not English. Perhaps the "in the Hawaiian Language" of the title influenced me a little. I thus don't consider myself "torched". But I'll pick up the bus tab for your next trip anyway, if you'd like. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jdawnj80 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 11 05:03:33 2002 From: jdawnj80 at HOTMAIL.COM (Jessica Smedley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:03:33 +0000 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How and why would he/she do this? Jessica Smedley _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 08:25:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:25:37 EST Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" Message-ID: MAHIMAHI VS. MUCKAMUCK "Mahimahi" is not English in 1836? OED's first citation is 1905. DARE's first citation is 1926. The book I cited from is in English. It lists "mahimahi" as a species--what else would you call it? As I've said before, it could be the first citation, or put in parenthesis, or put in "etymology" (which just lists "Hawaiian" and nothing else). But if I'm looking up "mahimahi," it's a citation I'd like to know about. Why not make things easy for dictionary users? Look at OED's revised "Mazurka," for example. That gives you the dates in other languages. But look at both DARE and OED for "muckamuck"--a term I've come across as well. Both give an 1847 citation. The "muckamuck" citation is in a list of "Chinook jargon." Is that English? DARE puts it in parenthesis. OED uses it as the first citation. No parenthesis. The "Chinook" side of a jargon list is considered English! Why is what's good enough for "muckamuck" not good enough for "mahimahi"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIMITED RESOURCES From the NEW YORK TIMES on the web today: "In India, a nation of limited resources, how much should be spent to care for people infected with H.I.V." India is a country of "limited resources." That implies that other countries have "unlimited resources." What countries are they? "Poor country" is not politcally correct? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 10:00:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:00:51 EST Subject: Wet Shoes; Stifado (1896) Message-ID: WET SHOES I left this out of my "wet fries" discussion. I saw it in a small new book callled HUNGRY? NEW YORK. It appears to be popular in Ithaca and Buffalo. From a web site for Max's, Holiday Inn, Ithaca, New York: WET SHOES $4.99 Max's Original! The ultimate combination of hand-cut fries topped with serious chili, cheddar cheese, a dab of sour cream and scallions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STIFADO OED has 1950 for "stifado." However, see its 1688 "stuffado" and 1771 "stuffata." The latter two are probably Italian. This dish is Greek--perhaps useful for my big fat Greek wedding (although I'm not Greek and no one will marry me). From the NEW YORK HERALD, 10 May 1896, pg. 27, col. 3: _GREEKS ARE GOOD CITIZENS._ (...) _CHARACTERISTICS OF THEIR RESTAURANTS._ (...) (Col. 4--ed.) GREEK EATING HOUSES. There is a large number of Greek restaurants in and adjacent to Madison st. These are interesting places. They are plainly furnished; deal tables and cheap chairs are the principal furniture. But for 25 cents a Greek or any one else can get a large amount of nourishing food at one of these restaurants. The greatest delight of all is the nargile, the Turkish pipe, from which delicious draughts of smoke are drawn through cooling waters. When the Greek has leisure, as he does on Sundays (Never on Sunday!--ed.), he will use the nargile by the hour and play cards for additional pastime. Of course, he must for pay extra time spent in the restaurant. But for 25 cents will afford him a good dinner and a considerable amount of tobacco. Turkish cigarettes are also smoked with the coffee, which is served black. Roast lamb and meat and vegetables stewed together are the favorite dishes. The Greeks do not fancy potatoes, and none are to be found in a Greek restaurant. Bread seems to take the place of potatoes. It is said that the Greeks eat more bread than any other people. In their restaurants here they make a soup which is regarded as a great delicacy by them. In this eggs and lemon are beaten together, making a cour compound. Rice is added to it. This soup is called "manestra." Another dish is meat stewed with celery on which this mixture of lemon and eggs is put as a sauce. Another esteemed dish is a broth of chicken, in which rice is boiled until the broth is absorbed by the rice. Then the combination is put on top of a stove. Butter is added, and then to the rice a kind of sour clabber. Some eat the clabber separately. Still another dish is made of whole onions and meat stewed together and called "stiffato." For dessert fruit and pastry made with butter and milk are used. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 15:19:58 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:19:58 -0500 Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 03:25:37AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > MAHIMAHI VS. MUCKAMUCK > > "Mahimahi" is not English in 1836? > OED's first citation is 1905. DARE's first citation is 1926. > The book I cited from is in English. It lists "mahimahi" as a > species--what else would you call it? As I've said before, it could be the > first citation, or put in parenthesis, or put in "etymology" (which just > lists "Hawaiian" and nothing else). But if I'm looking up "mahimahi," it's a > citation I'd like to know about. Why not make things easy for dictionary > users? There's a big difference between having a word as the first citation and having it in brackets or in the etymology. This book, while written in English, is a dictionary of Hawaiian; to say that the glossing of a Hawaiian word is English just because it's in a bilingual dictionary is like saying that _eludificor_ is English because it appears in the _Oxford Latin Dictionary._ (It's from Plautus, so probably occurs as an inkhorn term in the 17th century, if you want to look for it.) We try to give information that is helpful. I don't think the existence of _mahimahi_ in Hawaiian is in question to the extent that it serves any useful purpose to demonstrate that it existed in 1836. Contrast this, however, with: > Look at OED's revised "Mazurka," for example. That gives you the dates in > other languages. In the case of _mazurka,_ the etymology is quite complicated, and the question of borrowing among various Western European languages is a difficult one. Thus it does serve a useful purpose, in my opinion, to go into more detail of the history of the term's transmission from Polish to Western European languages. This is quite different from _mahimahi,_ which is unquestionably from Hawaiian directly into English. > But look at both DARE and OED for "muckamuck"--a term I've come across as > well. Both give an 1847 citation. The "muckamuck" citation is in a list of > "Chinook jargon." Is that English? > DARE puts it in parenthesis. > OED uses it as the first citation. No parenthesis. The "Chinook" side of > a jargon list is considered English! > Why is what's good enough for "muckamuck" not good enough for "mahimahi"? In this case, you're right--which is why in the revised version of this entry, which should appear in March 2003, the 1847 cite has been moved up into the etymology, and 1852 is our earliest example of English use. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jkheller at SIU.EDU Mon Nov 11 15:26:53 2002 From: jkheller at SIU.EDU (John Hellermann) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:26:53 -0600 Subject: "native speaker" Message-ID: I have a request related to the "native speaker" thread that has been active in the past few days. I am a conversation analyst interested in how people talk about or talk around terms such as "native speaker" and "non native speaker" as well as how people talk to one another about other people's dialects. Granted, there are countless reels of tape of sociolinguistic interviews eliciting attitudes toward dialects, specific usages, and phonological variables. But what I am really interested in is a collection of examples from non-interview, talk in social interaction in which the topics of "dialect" or "native/non-native speaker" comes up. If anyone has such data (recorded or written) that you could share, I would be very grateful if you could contact me. John Hellermann, Assistant Professor Department of Speech Communication Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Illinois 62901 (618) 453-1893 From mkuha at BSU.EDU Mon Nov 11 16:35:22 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:35:22 -0500 Subject: "native speaker" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20021111090024.00cc8270@saluki-mail.siu.edu> Message-ID: I don't know if this counts as talk in social interaction, but the NewsHour did a piece recently on telemarketers in India "talking to customers in Europe and America". The issue of native/nonnative English comes up in an indirect way. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/telemarketing_11-05.html -Mai On 11/11/02 10:26 AM, John Hellermann wrote: > ...I am a conversation analyst interested in how people talk about or talk > around terms such as "native speaker" and "non native speaker" as well as > how people talk to one another about other people's dialects. > > ...But what I am really interested in is a collection of examples > from non-interview, talk in social interaction in which the topics of > "dialect" or "native/non-native speaker" comes up... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 17:06:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:06:59 EST Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" Message-ID: It doesn't serve "any useful purpose" to tell readers about that 1836 "mahimahi" on a first citation of 1905? Again, I think the book is a close call. "Mahimahi" is defined as "a species of fish," not "dolphin" or "dorado." And again, DARE included similar in brackets on "muckamuck." On "muckamuck,": OED is putting the 1847 citation in the etymology (where the first citation is 1852)? Is there some doubt that the word is from Chinook jargon? This same "erymology" treatment couldn't be done for "mahimahi"? People would ommediately cancel their OED subscriptions if you give a more detailed etymology? Ah, I don't care. It doesn't affect my pay. From Friolly at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 17:07:50 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:07:50 EST Subject: "squz" Message-ID: No, but I have heard 'skwoze' many times. Fritz > I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a > past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has > anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical > area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How > and why would he/she do this? From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Nov 11 17:11:11 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:11:11 -0600 Subject: 'ahold' in Boston Globe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Short article on increasing use of 'ahold' in print, outside of quote marks. http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/314/focus/Holding_pattern+.shtml Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Nov 11 18:14:07 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:14:07 -0500 Subject: "native speaker" Message-ID: But did you notice no one has so far picked up the thread that I activated a few days ago? I was hoping at least D.R.P. who claimed he is a native speaker of English a couple of weeks back would have something to say. I consider him one of the most eminent speakers of English alive today. But "native speaker"? Please ignore this provocation. T.M.P. ------Original Message ----- From: "John Hellermann" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: "native speaker" > I have a request related to the "native speaker" thread that has been > active in the past few days. > .... > John Hellermann, Assistant Professor > Department of Speech Communication > Southern Illinois University > Carbondale, Illinois 62901 > > (618) 453-1893 From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 18:20:16 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:20:16 EST Subject: Dictionary Society of North America meeting Message-ID: ****NOTICE****NOTICE*****NOTICE**** Abstracts for the Dictionary Society of North America's 14th biennial meeting are due December 1st. We invite interested participants to submit one-page abstracts for 20 minute papers on any aspect of dictionaries. Submissions will be processed for anonymous review. The meeting will be held at Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, USA, May 28-31, 2003. Please visit our the Abstracts page on our website for details: www.duke.edu/web/linguistics/dsna.htm Ron Butters, Chair Duke Linguistics Program 307 Allen Building Duke University Durham, NC 27708 919-684-6561 linguistics at duke.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Nov 11 19:47:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:47:06 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry to sound so out of it, but I'm trying to remember "Louie Louie" and wondering why it would be significant to Washington--not to mention to Paul Wellstone, for whom it was apparently a favorite song. Anyone know? At 11:14 PM 11/9/2002 -0800, you wrote: >On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. > > > > BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! > >The song "Acres of clams" was made popular by Seattle restaurant owner and >philanthropist Ivar Haglund. The Washington state song is the completely >forgettable "Washington, my home". However there was a very spirited >campaign about 20 years ago to adopt "Louie, Louie" as the state song. >Unfortunately, IMHO, the campaign failed. > >The spelling "geoduck" remains a mystery. > >allen >maberry at u.washington.edu From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 11 19:47:26 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:47:26 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Jessica Smedley says about this word (apparently pronounced "skwuzz"), >> I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a >> past-tense form of the verb "squeeze,"...Is it possible that this >> person created this word? How and why would he/she do this? Sure! Why not? (Is his or her sex indeterminate?) But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 19:54:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:54:54 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: <77.1d931b2.2b013de6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:07 PM -0500 11/11/02, Fritz Juengling wrote: >No, but I have heard 'skwoze' many times. >Fritz Ditto > > >> I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a > > past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has >> anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical >> area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How >> and why would he/she do this? If I *did* here [skw^z], I don't think I would transcribe it as "squz", given the standard orthographic conventions. I think it would have to be either "squuz" or "squiz", although the latter is admittedly misleading. "quC" is ill-formed, where C is any consonant. (Not counting unnaturalized loans.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 20:08:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:08:40 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: <200211111447_MC3-1-1A2E-A9C@compuserve.com> Message-ID: At 2:47 PM -0500 11/11/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) > >--Dodi Schultz P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Let me try googling...Yup, 716 for "squoze", 0 for "skwoze". Majority rules! (But I will allow for minority rights too.) L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Nov 11 20:23:06 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:23:06 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Saturday, November 9, 2002 4:29 pm Subject: Re: MERKIN in the OED > At 12:38 PM +0000 11/9/02, Jonathon Green wrote: > > > >There is also this recent variant: > > > >1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a > >straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may > >be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she > >is a lesbian > > > For a female's beard. Very cute. (Presumably, like the default > beard, it could also refer to a man who escorts a lesbian on a given > night out, not necessarily a man who's married to or seriously > involved with a lesbian. The deception is the key part.) I've still > never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a > gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. > > larry > The original sense was probably from gambling, as in the citation below: a1953: [A horse trainer] looked about for a “beard” -- a man with whom he had no ostensible connection -- to do his betting for him. [A horse trainer] didn’t make the bets himself, fearing that this might put a run on [his] horse, but had several friends put the money down in small lots. This is known in the trade as using “beards.” Joe H. Palmer, This Was Racing, N. Y.: A. S. Barnes, 1953, p. 82 & 107. [Palmer died in 1952; the book is a collection of columns written in the late 1940s & early 1950s. The exact date of the original publication is not given. He tells a story elsewhere in the book about Frank James, the wild-west bank robber, after his release from prison, working as a beard around race-tracks.] 1972: One night I was bearding for a Congressman. This is a duty of bachelor staff members when a legislator is married and wishes to go out publicly with a lady other than his wife. *** To the unsuspecting public, the bachelor (the “beard”) is the lady’s escort and the legislator is just tagging along. Charles Ashman, Kissinger: The Adventures of Super-Kraut, N. Y.: Dell, 1972, p. 7. [Referring to the 1950s.] As I recall, HDAS doesn't have the gambling sense; for the dating sense, it says, in part: 1956, etc.; (note beard, n, 3b, a companion or escort, limited to Homosex. use, from 1971) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 20:29:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:29:56 -0500 Subject: Yellow Legs (East Tennesseans, 1857) Message-ID: From THE PLOUGH, THE LOOM, AND THE ANVIL, June 1857, pg. 715: _DOTS BY AN EAST TENNESSEAN._ (...) It is doubtless generally known that East Tennessee is proverbial for "_sweet-cider and dried apples_," and that her sons are known and called, west of the Mississippi, "_Yellow Legs_." (...) She has been one of my instructors in farming since 1836. Her lesson on _long food_, commonly called by farmers roughness, during the latter winter months, have, I trust, been of some advantage to me. (There are several "Yellow Legs" in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS, but I didn't see "Tennessee." DARE?..."Long food?"--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 20:37:39 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:37:39 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <34134533dcff.33dcff341345@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 03:23:06PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > > The original sense was probably from gambling, as in the citation below: > a1953: [A horse trainer] looked about for a ?beard? -- a man >with whom he had no ostensible connection -- to do his >betting for him. [...] > As I recall, HDAS doesn't have the gambling sense; for the >dating sense, it says, in part: 1956, etc.; (note beard, n, >3b, a companion or escort, limited to Homosex. use, from >1971) Actually, HDAS sense 3.a. is indeed "_Gamb._ a go-between who places bets for another in order to protect his identity; (broadly) an unacknowledged agent". But your 1953 example above is an antedating; the first example in HDAS is 1956. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 21:01:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:01:37 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1901); Mahimahi vs. Meeting-house Message-ID: N.Y.C. Jesse asked me about the first use of N.Y.C.=New York City. I'm getting tons of bad hits, mostly for the New York Central Rail Road (N.Y.C.R.R.). 17 November 1901, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: "Historical Day and Evening of the N.Y.C.C.D.A.R.," the latter being translated meaning New York City Chapter Daughters of the American Revolution, are to be celebrated at Sherry's on Saturday, Nov. 30. (I'll do better. I just what to see what Fred Shapiro comes up with--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MAHIMAHI VS. MEETING-HOUSE I ran the name "Lorrin Andrews" ("L. Andrews") through OED online. The entry for "meeting house" came up. This is a newly revised entry. "1865 L. Andrews Dict. Hawaiian Lang." is the first citation! No brackets, either! It was probably there also in 1836, but I didn't look. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 21:16:40 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:16:40 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1901); Mahimahi vs. Meeting-house In-Reply-To: <473EE31C.58DFB80D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 04:01:37PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > N.Y.C. > 17 November 1901, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: > "Historical Day and Evening of the N.Y.C.C.D.A.R.," the latter being translated meaning New York City Chapter Daughters of the American Revolution, are to be celebrated at Sherry's on Saturday, Nov. 30. > > (I'll do better. I just what to see what Fred Shapiro comes up with--ed.) He'll have to do better than 1891 to beat us, which I'm sure one of you will do shortly. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > MAHIMAHI VS. MEETING-HOUSE > > I ran the name "Lorrin Andrews" ("L. Andrews") through OED online. The entry for "meeting house" came up. This is a newly revised entry. > "1865 L. Andrews Dict. Hawaiian Lang." is the first citation! No brackets, either! Yes, because the term "meeting house" occurs in the English text of the dictionary! If the entry for _mahimahi_ had read, "_mahimahi,_ the mahimahi fish, a kind of fish," then we'd put it in without brackets too! In Andrews the phrase _meeting house_ is glossing a Hawaiian word. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 23:23:48 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:23:48 -0500 Subject: Hardtack (1832) Message-ID: TWO YEARS AND A HALF IN THE AMERICAN NAVY: COMPRISING A JOURNAL OF A CRUISE TO ENGLAND, IN THE MEDITERRNEAN, AND IN THE LEVANT, ON BOARD OF THE U. S. FRIGATE CONSTELLATION, IN THE YEARS 1829, 1830, and 1831 by E. C. Wines in two volumes London: Richard Bentley 1833 Philadelphia: Carey & Lea 1832 I read the 1833 version, but I'm sure that the 1832 American version is the same. This book was read by OED and gives us our first "Dago." OED cites the book eight times. Of course, OED also missed a lot. "Mahimahi" isn't here. VOLUME ONE Pg. 19: *"Green-horn" is a term applied on shipboard to all who have never been to sea before. Pg. 25: ...as long as I could get beans or _lobscowse_.* *I have never seen this word written, I have therefore given it an orthography corresponding to its pronunciation. It is a dish composed of salt beef and potatoes hashed up together, and very _fashionable_ when nothing better can be obtained. Pg. 25: The midshipmen call each other familiarly "reefers," and I had frequent opportunities of witnessing their jovial disposition and habits. Pg. 24: We lived entirely on what are called on shipboard "salt junk and hard tack," which means salted provisions and sea-biscuit. "Fresh grub and soft tack" are the sea terms for fresh meats and bread. (OED and M-W have 1836 for "hardtack"--ed.) Pg. 26: "Sky-larking and running," that is, rough-and-tumble play, and a free indulgence in personal sarcasms, occupied no small portion of their time. Pg. 35: The _middies_... Pg. 69: The three standing dishes at sea, are salt beef, pork and beans, and _duff_, a heavy, indigestible species of plum-pudding. In port, fresh beef is substituted for salt. (OED has 1840 for "duff"?--ed.) Pg. 82: But all the sympathy you get is a hearty laugh from every one who happen to hear you, when you "heave-up," accompanied, perhaps, with the still more provoking prescription of a copious use of salt water and raw pork. (I'm having a bit of trouble finding "throw up" and "heave up" for "vomit"--ed.) Pg. 96: Here a party is collected of which some half-dozen are keeping time to the music of the violin; there an old tar is "spinning yarns," i. e. recounting real or fictitious adventures to a second company, whose occasional loud bursts of laughter mark what are considered the odd or witty parts of the story;... Pg. 217: ...many of the men were "pretty well corned," as they call it. VOLUME TWO Pg. 8: They usually take lodgings merely at a public house, and dine at the _trattoria_. (OED has another 1832 citation--ed.) Pg. 116: _Piano piano, dice l'Italiano_.* *"Slow and easy is the Italian's motto." Pg. 142: Let them act upon the principal of the old Spanish proverb, _El que no sabe lo que es la guerra, que vaya a ver_.* *"He who is ignorant of what war is, let him become a soldier." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 11 23:44:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:44:08 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 2:47 PM -0500 11/11/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: #> #>But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) #> #>--Dodi Schultz # #P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I #think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Let #me try googling...Yup, 716 for "squoze", 0 for "skwoze". Majority #rules! (But I will allow for minority rights too.) Perhaps apropos: I snoze a sneeze into the air. It fell to earth I know not where. But hard and cold were the looks of those In whose vicinity I snoze. Google finds several variants of this, attributed to Ish Kabibble, Ogden Nash, and good old Anon. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 02:47:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:47:22 -0500 Subject: Feijao, Cameron (1845) Message-ID: SKETCHES OF RESIDENCE AND TRAVELS IN BRAZIL, EMBRACING HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL NOTICES OF THE EMPIRE AND SEVERAL OF ITS PROVINCES by the Rev. Daniel P. Kidder in two volumes Philadelphia: Sorin & Ball 1845 OED has "feijao" from 1857 and an author named Kidder. Keep in mind that none of this is English until Jesse tells me it is. "Caipirinha" is still not English, so don't ask me. VOLUME ONE Pg. 97 ...mangoes, bananas, pomegranates, mammoons, goyabas, jambos, aracas, mangabas, and many other species of fruit... (Mammoons?--ed.) Pg. 274: Most of the _carne secca_, or jerked beef, in common use throughout Brazil, is prepared here.After the hide is taken from the ox, the flesh is skinned off in a similar manner from the whole side, in strips about half an inch in thickness. The meat, in this form, is stretched in the sun to dry. But very little salt is used in its preservation. When sufficiently cured, it is shipped to all the maritime provinces, and is the only kind of preserved beef used in the country. Pg. 274: These meats are not very inviting to the taste of an uninitiated foreigner, but those who persevere in their use for any length of time, particularly in connection with the _Feijao preto_, or black beans, never wonder at the partiality of the Brazilians for them. Pg.278: Little children, armed with their _lasso_ or _bolas_, make war upon the chickens, ducks, and geese of the farmyard, until their ambition and strength lead them into a wider field. (OED has 1843 for "bolas"?--ed.) Pg. 285: I obtained a supper of _cangica_, boiled corn and milk, and a tolerable night's lodging. Pg. 303: There was also made here a large quantity of _guarapa_, the simple juice of the sugar-cane in a state of partial fermentation. It is a beverage much esteemed and much used in this portion of Brazil. Pg. 346: Abridged from a work by LOUIS RIEDEL, Botanist, Rio de Janeiro. (A list of Roots; Woods and Barks; Leaves and Herbs; and Fruits, Gums, Resins, Balsams, and Oils. "Guarana" is here, for example, and OED has that from only 1838--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 105: With a little white sugar and lime-juice sprinkled over it (cocoa-nuts--ed.), it vies for delicacy with the choicest custard. Pg. 166: ...pirao*... *The flour of mandioc, boiled. Pg. 202: The Senhor even assisted to skin my roasted _cameroens_, (shrimps,) protesting at the same time that they were miserable, and that I might have much better if I would only wait to have them caught and cooked. (OED has 1880 for "cameron"--ed.) Pg. 281: The trade in gum-elastic, cacao, sarsaparilla, cloves, urucu, and Brazil-nuts, is more peculiar. ("Brazil nut" is only from 1830--ed.) Pg. 285: It is not generally known that the triangular fruit, called in England and the United States the Brazil-nut, is only produced in the northern parts of the empire. It grows spontaneously in great abundance in the forests of the Amazon. The Portuguese call it "_Castanha do Maranham_,"--the Maranham chestnut, it haveing first been exported from that province. Pg. 325: What is gained by the miners and the _garimpeiros_, as the diamond seekers are called, together with small quantities of ipecacuauha, constitute the whole amount of exports from the province. (OED has "garimpeiro" from 1812, then 1869--ed.) Pg. 328: Its highest phase is represented in the character of the _vaqueiros_, or cattle proprietors. (OED has this from 1826--ed.) Pg. 334: The milk of the cows is converted into a species of soft cheese, known as the _queijo de Minas_. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 04:43:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:43:01 -0500 Subject: Csardas (1850); Gnocchi (1875) Message-ID: A few more items before I find people guilty of running red lights. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEMOIRS OF A HUNGARIAN LADY by Theresa Pulszky in two volumes London: Henry Colburn 1850 VOLUME ONE Pg. 55: In their Csardas (their national dance), they being by meeting and retreating, like two gallant adversaries in the lists of a tournament; but when at last they join, they turn together with such swiftness as if carried off by a hurricane. (OED has 1860 for "czardas," the Hungarian national dance--ed.) Pg. 59: ...the poppy seed dressed up into a pudding _makos macsik_ is highly relished, and forms the regular Christmas dish. In Germany there is no Christmas without a tree; in Hungary there is none without _makos macsik_. Pg. 67: Their cellar is provided with wine, and the ample tub with _kaposzta_ (pickled-cabbage), an indispensable ingredient in every Hungarian household. Pg. 105: *Bunda is the fur of a sheep's skin, the inseparable ornament and comfor of the Hungarian peasant. It is his cloak, and in case of need, his bed. Pg. 155: *Csarda is a tavern on the wide plain in Lower Hungary resembling a "Khan" in eastern countries. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ RAMBLES IN ISTRIA, DALMATIA AND MONTENEGRO by R. H. R. in one volume London: Hurst and Blackett 1875 Pg. 93: ...we shall take a _granita di caffee_ (a water-ice flavoured with coffee), and study the moving panorama before us,... Pg. 145: We first had an excellent Julienne soup, with abundance of grated Parmesan for such as appreciated it; next was served the "_fritto_," according to old Italian custom, which always enumerates the (Pg. 146--ed.) following dishes, to succeed each other in an orthodox dinner:--minestra, fritto, lesso, umido, arrosto, dolce, frutta, and. when in season, slices of melon, or fresh figs, to be eaten with thin slices of raw ham or Bologna sausage. (...) The _fritto_ was delicious (assuredly nowhere else can they fry as in Italy); it consisted of zucchettine and fiori, _i.e._, young expanded gourd flowers and very young gourds not bigger than an egg, cut in thin slices, dipped in the thinnest of batter and fried quite crisp and golden brown, and served dry without a particle of grease. Then came a dish of _gnocchi alla Milanese_, a superb dish, but difficult to explain; imagine the ingredients of a colassal _vol-au-vent a la financiere_, replete with livers, cocks' combs, unborn eggs, &c., &c., surrounded by a bastion of a peculiar preparation, made of maize-flour, and the whole bathed in tomato sauce and (Pg. 147--ed.) sprinkled right over with grated Parmesan, "_proprio do far riavere i morti_," as the _chef_ exclaimed to me after dinner, when, handing him a cigar, I complimented him on his gnocchi. Then came the _arrosto_ which consisted of veal and fowls, and after that a splendid _piatto dolce_ of stewed peaches in an artistic cage of caramel sugar, ornamented with strange devices of most delicious marzapane. (I found "gnocchi" in 1867 in BAEDEKER, but this 1875 adds to that. OED and M-W have the 1890s--ed.) Pg. 202: I remember it was, though I was not minding it much, being occupied at the time with listening to a man performing on the national instrument, the _guzla_ (pronounced goozla), whilst a girl was singing a low, monotonous, plaintive air. Pg. 232: We now all withdrew to the drawing-room for coffee and tea, _a la Russe_, without cream and with a slice of lemon. Pg. 252: They export immense quantities of a small dried fish "_scoranza_," much used in the neighbouring Catholic and Greek countries during their religious feasts;... Pg. 253: Castradina (dried mutton and goat hams), honey, wax, goat and kid skins to any amount, as also martin, fox, and hare skins, together with many substances I have forgotten. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 12 05:19:12 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:19:12 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Laurence Horn writes, regarding that word I said I use (as do several others): >> As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I think of >> it.... Oh, of course; that's how it *is* spelled. I used "skwoze" only to indicate pronunciation. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 07:40:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:40:38 EST Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) Message-ID: NYC The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), pg. 217. There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I don't think "NYC" here is New York Central. If you don't like that, I have others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EMPIRE CITY The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has 1838 for "Empire City" (New York City). These are from the American Periodical Series online. "Empire City" is allegedly in a 29-page review of TWO YEARS AND A HALF IN THE NAVY (the book I just read), in THE AMERICAN QUARTERLY REVIEW, December 1832, page 457+. I didn't see it there, though. The next citations are from THE KNICKERBOCKER. There's November 1836, pages 620+ and 631+. I didn't look at those yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- EMPIRE STATE The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has 1834. See also "The empire state" in THE FAMILY MAGAZINE. volume 2, pp. 71-72. I didn't check that out yet on the American Periodical Series. There's also the NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, July 1833, pg. 190 (continuing for 60 pages). I also didn't look at that, but I think it's on MOA-Cornell. April 1833, AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, pg. 418: Will the Old Dominion pocket this? Where are Mary Randolph, Goliah, Flying Dutchman, Zinganee, Trifle? and then the Empire state, with her Black Maria, O'Kelly, Medoc, Terror, Miss Mattie of New Jersey, and Mr. Craig's stable--... From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Nov 12 09:48:51 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 04:48:51 -0500 Subject: FW: Sexy "th" [and "whistled s"] Message-ID: Re Duane's comments, I don't find this to be an "MCP" thing at all -- just an observation to be tested against the evidence. Hence this posting. I also wish to add another phenomenon re how such women (beauty queen types) often say a sibilant "s" with a near whistle. I have noticed this for years, and from the same group that Duane describes. The "whistled s" is also used jocularly to mimic the (supposed) speech of male homosexuals. Many comedians have this in their routines. Again, there seems to be some sort of connection to effeminacy with this sound. I cannot say that I have noticed the phenomenon that Duane describes, but it is the case that models and others who aspire to make money or fame from their beauty are trained to smile often, and to smile very openly, showing both top and bottom rows of teeth. That the same folks would reveal other bits of oral anatomy does not surprise me. I throw this out so that others might respond with their observations, on both the "th" and the "s" issues. Looks like we're all gonna watch the next Miss America Pageant, right? Who knew that these ladies were the subject of dialect study? Maybe we should hold a springtime ADS meeting on the Boardwalk in Atlantic City. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Duane Campbell Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sexy "th" There is a phenomenon I have noticed for years, sort out of the corner of my mind. Most people form the "th" sounds by placing the tip of the tongue against the back of the teeth. As I talk through it, it can be the upper teeth or the upper and lower teeth together. Occasionally, though, I notice people making the sound by extending the tongue beyond the teeth, sticking it out slightly, visibly. Here's the MCP part. I have noticed this only in women, and particularly attractive women, more particularly women who have an investment in their attractiveness. Perhaps it is selective observation -- I may look more closely at attractive women. In fact, I know I do. But I have never observed this in men. The physical pronunciation characteristics, that is, not the part about looking at attractive women. In fact, I think I noticed this first in beauty contest winners being interviewed, and I think there may be a higher incidence in this unique cohort. Watch them say, "Thank you" (which they say a lot). The tongue very often protrudes. Is this manner of pronouncing the "TH' sounds specific to women? Has anyone observed it in men? D From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 14:04:40 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:04:40 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) In-Reply-To: <67.1e2f3c6.2b020a76@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 12, 2002 at 02:40:38AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > NYC > > The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' > PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), pg. 217. > There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I don't > think "NYC" here is New York Central. > If you don't like that, I have others. OK, let's see 'em. The "N.Y.C." appears in a column headed "Companies"; other locations in the column, just as much a part of New York City as those labelled "N.Y.C.", have a designation "N.Y. City", which suggests strongly to me that these are in fact names of railroad companies, and the "N.Y.C." must mean "New York Central". Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 12 14:43:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:43:33 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) In-Reply-To: <20021112140440.GB20086@panix.com> Message-ID: > > The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' > > PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), > pg. 217. > > There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I > don't > > think "NYC" here is New York Central. > > If you don't like that, I have others. > >OK, let's see 'em. > >The "N.Y.C." appears in a column headed "Companies"; other locations in the >column, just as much a part of New York City as those labelled "N.Y.C.", >have a designation "N.Y. City", which suggests strongly to me that these >are in fact names of railroad companies, and the "N.Y.C." must mean "New >York Central". I think "N. Y. C." = "New York City" here. [Why one would want to see this abbreviation I don't know. Probably I missed the initial inquiry.] Each line seems to show the name of a railroad company, apparently followed in parentheses by the city of its operation (where it isn't already given by the company name). The city names are abbreviated as necessary to fit the column width. "N. Y. City" is used where it fits, otherwise "N. Y. C." is used; similarly for "Brooklyn" versus "Brook'n", "Pittsburg" versus "Pbg." In only a couple of cases is there something in parentheses which I don't immediately recognize, perhaps an alternative form of the company name [Is "N. Y. C." in this context somehow more interesting than "Phila." or "Pbg."?] -- Doug Wilson From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Nov 12 15:32:08 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:32:08 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) Message-ID: Barry gives us the following passage: > April 1833, AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, pg. 418: > Will the Old Dominion pocket this? Where are Mary Randolph, > Goliah,Flying Dutchman, Zinganee, Trifle? and then the Empire > state, with her Black > Maria, O'Kelly, Medoc, Terror, Miss Mattie of New Jersey, and Mr. > Craig'sstable--... > The "Black Maria" referred to is probably the source of the term "black maria" meaning "paddy wagon", though this Black Maria was the daughter of a Black Maria who raced toward the end of the 1810s. But the appearances of "Black Maria" I posted here a few years ago from the mid-1830s are so far as I know still the earliest yet found. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Nov 12 16:27:19 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:27:19 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021111144414.019a5fe0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Sorry to sound so out of it, but I'm trying to remember "Louie Louie" and > wondering why it would be significant to Washington--not to mention to Paul > Wellstone, for whom it was apparently a favorite song. Anyone know? This is from: http://www.louielouie.net./Louie_FAQ.html "Was "Louie Louie" ever made a state song in Washington or Oregon? Thanks in a large part to the folks behind KING-TV's "Almost Live" television show in Seattle, Washington, "Louie Louie" almost became the official state song of the state, edging out the current official state song, "Washington, My Home." While it never became the "official state song" of Washington, it was instead deemed the "official rock song" of Washington, inspiring other states to also declare "official rock songs." The state of Oregon tried to also make "Louie Louie" their state song, but it too, fell short." The song was written by Richard Berry (1935-1997) b. in Extension, LA. He wrote the song in 1955 and it was released as a single with Berry and The Pharaohs in 1957 on Flip Records. The Kingsmen (from Portland, OR) recorded in Louie Louie in 1963 in Portland. It had been recorded by The Wailers in 1961 and a few days after the Kingsmen by Paul Revere and the Raiders (band members from Idaho and Oregon). The song doesn't seem to have much historical connection to Washington at all, except for the KING-TV campaign. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 16:38:16 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:38:16 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those of you who have ever had the joy of trying to untangle these terms as they are used in the US (along with city, village, etc), I highly recommending going to the USENET site comp.dcom.telecom and look for a series of four posts on Towns and Townships that were recently posted by Neal McLain. This is the most thorough discussion of these terms that I have ever seen. If you are not a regular user of USENET you can access it through Google via the Groups option, through which you can get to comp.dcom.telecom They were posted on October 19, 2002, and the title of the threads are "Towns and Townships - Part 1 of 4" and so on up to Part 4 of 4. You can either search on relevant terms to call them up, or you can hit the '25 previous threads' option 7 or 8 times to get to that timeframe. A very informative read. -- Steve From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Nov 12 17:46:56 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:46:56 -0600 Subject: NCTE on Grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: NCTE (Nat'l Council of Teachers of English) has put out a statement on teachers and grammar, with the help of the LSA. It's here: http://www.ncte.org/positions/grammar.shtml --Erin editor at verbatimmag.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Nov 12 19:18:46 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:18:46 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) Message-ID: Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but the next volume of DARE, Volume IV (P-Sk) is already being listed for sale on the book sites, with a release date of December 2002. Barnes and Noble, at least, indicates that it is in stock. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674008847/ http://new.frontlist.com/detail/0674008847 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0674008847 -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org gbarrett at americandialect.org American Dialect Society webmaster http://www.americandialect.org/ From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Nov 12 19:59:22 2002 From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:59:22 -0600 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) In-Reply-To: <90EAF452-F673-11D6-B95A-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: I'm delighted to say that we've just received our advance copies of Volume IV! The next issue of NADS will have a coupon for 20% off if you buy from Harvard Press; but in fairness to your pocketbooks, I should also say that Buy.com has a pre-publication discount of 37% (with no shipping charges) and Amazon.com has 30% off (also with no shipping charges). I don't know how long those prices will hold. The official pub date is December 15, but the release date is December 1, so if you want to buy from either of those web sites, I'd suggest doing it in November. At 02:18 PM 11/12/02 -0500, you wrote: >Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but the next volume of DARE, Volume IV >(P-Sk) is already being listed for sale on the book sites, with a >release date of December 2002. Barnes and Noble, at least, indicates >that it is in stock. > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674008847/ >http://new.frontlist.com/detail/0674008847 >http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ >isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0674008847 > >-- >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >gbarrett at americandialect.org >American Dialect Society webmaster >http://www.americandialect.org/ From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 21:10:31 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:10:31 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021112135450.02e0c400@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: What kills me is when you look it up on Amazon, they have: >Customers who shopped for this item also wear: >Clean Underwear from Amazon's Eddie Bauer Store >Ladybug Rain Boots from Amazon's Nordstrom Store >Suede Headwraps from Amazon's International Male Store >Cheetah Print Slippers from Amazon's Old Navy Store How comforting to know we wear clean underwear. (I can see Erin in Ladybug Rain Boots, too...) -- Steve Kl. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 13 00:19:00 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:19:00 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: You-uns may recall that six months or so ago the question was raised here as to whether it was really possible, as is commonly said, that the term "upset" in the sense of an unexpected victory by a seemingly lesser opponent in a sporting event was not used until after 1919, when a colt named Upset beat Man o' War in the Sanford Stakes. The application seems obvious, yet the earliest citation in the OED for this particular sense is 1924, as I recall, with reference to a tennis match. Larry Horn objected that since Man o' War was just a 2 year old at the time, his defeat could not have seemed as astonishing as it later appeared. I rummaged around in some of the newspapers of 1919, the NYTimes and several others, and showed that in fact the sporting crowd was shocked and horrified at the outcome. It seemed to me then to be significant that none of the reports said anything like "Upset lived up to his name yesterday". I concluded "These accounts of the race suggest that the word "upset" was not familiar in the sense of "unexpected victory or loss" before this event. The World stated: "One might make all sorts of puns about it being an upset, but Man o' War in the opinion of nine out of ten observers was far the better colt in the race. . . . (August 14, 1919, p. 11, col. 1) The pun did not occur to the reporters from the Tribune or the Times. It occurred to the reporter for The Sun also: "Upset's victory was a big upset to all racegoers, even his famous trainer, James Rowe"; and "Golden Broom caused more than an upset", but he seems to have been thinking of "upset" as in "distress", for instance "upset stomach"." (Golden Broom was a colt thought to be nearly Man o' War's equal, and carried an identical weight as he did, 15 pounds or more more than any of the other colts, but he ran poorly and finished thoroughly beaten.) However -- I have been checking the NYTimes database for the 19th century for the word "upset" in the same story as the word "racing" and have found that the obvious application was indeed obvious to the horse-players of the latter 19th C. The earliest occurence was 1865. It and the next few appearances were in statements to the effect that that the outcome of a race "upset the calculations" of the experts and this seems the original idea. The earliest occurence I noted of "upset" appearing as a noun in this context was 1877. I didn't find the word at all used as a verb in a sentence like "This horse upset that horse." 1865: The racing was of the highest order; the contests being close and exciting, and the judgment of the knowing ones fairly upset by the unexpected results. New York Times, September 13, 1865, p. 5 1867: JACOB PINCUS, his clever trainer, smiles grimly when told of the dangerous representatives of the Holmdell string, and whistles with a strange self-consciousness of superior knowledge, as if he had heard and seen of as great pretensions being upset and blasted by a "dark horse" on previous occasions. New York Times, June 2, 1867, p. 5 1867: Notwithstanding the prestige of Mr. MORRIS' pair, that numerous class of betters termed the "fielders" maintained in some slight degree their proverbial characteristic to "take odds," and took many of the bets offered at one hundred to sixty, one hundred to fifty and at last one hundred to forty offered on MORRIS' pair against the field. They depended mainly upon the "dark horse" Baywood, sent on by Mr. ALEXANDER, the great Kentucky turfman, to represent his stable. . . . New York Times, June 5, 1867, p. 8. I note that the OED has "dark horse" in this sense from 1831, 1860 & 1865, but all from English sources, and its first U.S. source is 1884, so that this is an antedating for the U. S. The OED has "fielder" in this sense from 1844, from a U. S. source. 1870: It is quite possible that one of the despised outsiders, Sanford or Legatee or Flora McIvor may upset the calculations of the knowing ones, and triumph over the cracks. New York Times, June 17, 1870, p. 2 1872: There were many who considered Tubman so well in that he was liable to win, and consequently he was made a great favorite, but the calculations of the knowing ones were upset, for the winner turned up in Alroy, who sold lowest in the pools, who won a fast race in the mud. New York Times, June 7, 1872, p. 2 1874: The second affair, a dash of a mile and an eighth, for three-year olds, upset the calculations of the posted division, and the lucky McDaniel won the prize with Madge, beating the favorites easily in the fast time of 1:57 ¼, equaling the time of Experience Oaks two years ago over the same course. New York Times, August 14, 1874, p. 5 1875: The second event was the four-mile dash, between Wild Idle and Rutherford, which resulted in a complete victory for the former, and upset the calculations of the wise-acres, who backed Rutherford strongly to win until just before the start when Wild Idle came into favor. New York Times, August 22, 1875, p. 12 1877: The programme for to-day at Monmouth Park indicates a victory for the favorite in each of the four events, but racing is so uncertain that there may be a startling upset. New York Times, July 17, 1877, p. 8 The other instances of "upset" being used as a noun are May 17, 1883, August 11, 1888, October 11, 1890 & November 18, 1890. 1881: Wyoming upset all calculations by winning the Nursery Stakes, being cleverly ridden by Shauer. New York Times, October 2, 1881, p. 5 1883: This proved another upset for the favorites, Rosary, a very cheap one, winning in 1:17 ¼, Andrian second, and Eva S. third. New York Times, May 17, 1883, p. 2 1885: . . . the running this season has been so perplexing to the students of form as to upset the nicest calculations and theories of racing philsophers. New York Times, August 23, 1885, p. 5 1888: Long before the race had started . . . , it was common property among the select few that Referee was the "good thing" for the jumping race, and that it was one that could not be upset, as Mr. J. G. K. Lawrence's horse Burr Oak had upset the good thing in the hurdle race on Thursday. New York Times, July 8, 1888, p. 3 1888: Had Huntoon behaved himself he might have upset the calculations of the wise ones, for he showed a great burst of speed in his two breakaways. New York Times, August 1, 1888, p. 3 1888: Only two outright favorites won, but in most cases the winners were well backed and the only big upset was when Youghiogheny secured second position in the third race and paid his place backers $106 55 for a five-dollar ticket. New York Times, August 11, 1888, p. 3 1890: These two heart-breaking upsets coming in quick succession caused a veritable cyclone of adverse comment. New York Times, October 11, 1890, p. 3 1890: Kitty Van began the upsets in the opening dash by running in front of the field and winning as she pleased by three lengths from the favorite, Mabel Glenn, who only beat Lakeview out for the place after a hard struggle. New York Times, November 18, 1890, p. 2 So now I would be interested to find a source stating as a fact that this sense of the word "upset" was owing the colt Upset upsetting Man o' War. I have read it somewhere, but I don't remember where . I should check Flexner's "I Hear America Talking" and his other book, since I have them, but the statement must be in something I could have read in the 1950s. One of Charles Funk's books perhaps? Evidently "Spirit of the Times" is available in the American Periodicals database, and if so it might give an even earlier citation. Perhaps the NY Times of the 1850s and 1860s was not the newspaper to turn to if one was a horse-player. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 13 00:29:35 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:29:35 -0500 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: This following question was distributed to a group interested in NYState history. Perhaps one of you learned folk have some knowledge of this matter. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Morrow Date: Thursday, November 7, 2002 6:01 pm Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills > The message below was sent to the Mountain Top Historical Society > in Haines Falls (Greene County, NY) and subsequently forwarded to me, > requesting that I pass it along to someone who might be able to help this gentleman. > Pleasecontact him at if you can help. > Thanks. Patricia Morrow, Windham Town Historian > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > Delivered-To: mths at mhonline.net > From: "Marco Evenhuis" > To: > Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 > > Hi, > > I am interested in the remains of the Dutch language as a language of > colonists abroad. I visited your website and thought that maybe > your society could help me find some more information about the linguistic > heritage in the Catskill region. > > A friend of mine wrote me the following: "I used to own a house on a > mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were > born just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes > as a daily language when they were growing up." > > Since Dutch linguists never did any research in the area that was > once the colony of New Netherland, they assumed and still assume that what > a few local scholars wrote them, was correct: "The Dutch dialects of Jersey > Dutch, Albany Dutch and Mohawk Dutch, spoken in NJ en NY State, died out around > 1900. There are no speakers left." > > I find that this statement, that has been copied over and over > again into all popular and scientific publications about the Dutch language in > America, is incorrect and needs to be refined. Almost without any effort, I > already found some people who claim that a family member still spoke Dutch in > the 1950s and 60s. > > The reason that I write you this e-mail is to see if you can help > me with the following question: do you have any idea untill when (colonial) > Dutch was the home language for a significant part of Dutch descended families > in the Catskills region and do you know if there might still be some > people around that maybe still know (some of) the language? The latter sounds > more far sought then it actually is given the information that my friend > came up with as well as the fact that in 1998 I found a handful of speakers of > BerbiceCreole Dutch in Guyana, a language that was considered to > have already died out in the 1880s or 90s. > > If you cannot help me answer these questions, maybe you know > someone who can help me. I am not really interested in the help of 'professional > linguists', because they tend to follow the general assumption the > language already died out a century or at least half a century ago without any further > research. [Sorry about the sneer at professional linguists -- GAT] > Greetings from the Netherlands! > > Marco Evenhuis > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 02:06:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:06:36 -0500 Subject: Meeting-House Message-ID: A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE by Lorrin Andrews Lahainaluna: Press of the High School 1836 Pg. 37, col. 1: HA-LE-HA-LA-WAI, _s._ _hale_ and _halawai_; a meeting house, synagogue. (This book was in Columbia's Annex...The revised OED's first citation is this same author, from 1865. Is that going to be it? In all of DARE and OED, one citation from this book for "meeting house"? It's not my call, but c'mon!!...The American Periodical Series online is not finished yet. PUCK and LIFE and SPIRIT OF THE TIMES aren't online yet. It's going to get much better in the next six months. It's like the American Memory and Making of America databases in that you have to keep checking it for new additions--ed.) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 13 02:16:14 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:16:14 -0500 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at home & don't remember which one) _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 02:46:18 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:46:18 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1869) Message-ID: This continues a search for the first use of the initials "N.Y.C." for New York City. It was usually "New York, New York." New York will thank me for this. Nah, who am I kidding? Columbia University has this book that I just read on microfiche: COMMEMORATIVE DISCOURSE. SERMON ON THE CHARACTER AND LABORS OF THE LATE REV. JEREMIAH S. LORD, D. D. Pastor of the Reformed Church, Harlem, New York City PREACHED IN THE HARLEM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, N. Y. C. April 18th, 1869 By E. H. GILLETT, Pastor of the Harlem Presbyterian Church. NEW YORK: BOARD OF PUBLICATION OF REFORMED CHURCH IN AMERICA, 103 FULTON STREET 1869 If that's not good enough for you, there are others that I _haven't_ looked at. For example, there's this: Current database: WorldCat Total Libraries: 1 Libraries with Item: "NYC plantsman's ledger, 1..."( Record for Item )Location Library Code NY NEW YORK BOTANICAL GARDEN LIBR VXG Record for Item: "NYC plantsman's ledger, 1..."( Libraries with Item ) Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries that Own Item: 1 Connect to the catalog at Columbia External Links: More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: NYC plantsman's ledger, 1793-1795 Author(s): Woodburn, Elisabeth. ; Fortieth anniversary catalog. Year: 1793-1795 Description: 1 case ; 36 cm. Language: English Abstract: Contains ledger of anonymous plantsman in New York City covering dates Mar. 11, 1793 to May 26, 1796. On front and back cover: "Day book". Also contains Fortieth anniversary catalog : a tribute to American horticulture / Elisabeth Woodburn, from whom the ledger was purchased; description on p. 28-29. SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Ornamental plant industry -- New York (State) -- New York -- History -- 18th century -- Sources. Gardening -- New York (State) -- New York -- History -- 18th century -- Sources. Named Person: Long, Charles R. (Charles Robert), 1936- Note(s): Title from spine of case./ Holograph./ "Given in memory of Charles R. Long, Librarian, New York Botanical Garden, 1972-1986"--Cover of case. Class Descriptors: LC: SB443.35.N4 Other Titles: New York City plantsman's ledger, 1793-1795. Document Type: Book Entry: 20010727 Update: 20010730 Accession No: OCLC: 47661215 Database: WorldCat From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 03:01:58 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:01:58 -0500 Subject: Changing (?) meaning of "Palestinian" Message-ID: >From what I can tell, the term "Palestinian" today refers to "an Arab refugee with origins in the former British mandate of Palestine," but I have often read that until some point (1948, 1964, 1967?), "Palestinian" referred to anyone who had been born in the British mandate, regardless of his/her ethnic or religious background. Have any of you come across examples that illustrate the shift in meaning of this word? Are you aware of what events marked such a change? Sincerely Leif Knutsen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 07:37:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:37:36 EST Subject: Awful Awful (Rhode Island Cuisine) Message-ID: Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES has an article on Rhode Island cuisine. It's a nice little piece of regional cuisine, but hey, this stuff has been done years ago. You guys didn't exactly discover it. No mention was made of "Rhode Island clam chowder," one Rhody's older regional dishes. I tried to look through the college humor magazine THE BROWN JUG, but neither the LOC nor the NYPL had the issues I needed. Although I posted the earliest "cabinet," there probably were foods like that advertised in THE BROWN JUG (1930s?). I had planned on taking a short trip to Johnson & Wales and Brown (both in Providence) during my extended break this month, before a longer-trip Christmas in Kenya balloon safari and a New Year's in Zanzibar. In the meantime, here are the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office records for Awful Awful: Word Mark AWFUL AWFUL Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: MIXED MILK DRINK CONTAINING CANE SUGAR, WHOLE MILK, DEFATTED MILK, COCOA, ARTIFICIAL COLOR, ARTIFICAL FLAVOR AND GELATINE. FIRST USE: 19390419. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19480331 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71558849 Filing Date June 10, 1948 Registration Number 0529783 Registration Date August 29, 1950 Owner (REGISTRANT) BOND'S ICE CREAM, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 564 VALLEY ROAD UPPER MONTCLAIR NEW JERSEY(LAST LISTED OWNER) NEWPORT CREAMERY, INC., THE CORPORATION BY MERGER, BY ASSIGNMENT RHODE ISLAND 208 WEST MAIN ROAD MIDDLETOWN RHODE ISLAND 02840 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ELLIOT A. SALTER Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010217. Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20010217 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- Word Mark AWFUL AWFUL Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930700 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 74557143 Filing Date August 4, 1994 Published for Opposition June 13, 1995 Registration Number 1917014 Registration Date September 5, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) Newport Creamery, Inc. CORPORATION RHODE ISLAND 208 West Main Road Middletown RHODE ISLAND 02840(LAST LISTED OWNER) NEWPORT CREAMERY, LLC LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY BY ASSIGNMENT RHODE ISLAND 35 SOCKANOSSET CROSS ROAD CRANSTON RHODE ISLAND 02920 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record LEONARD B KATZMAN Prior Registrations 0529783 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 12:55:42 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:55:42 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve I read through about half of those 4 postings. It IS VERY informative indeed, and his research and surmises are also quite good. I have a few quibbles as to wording and as to a couple of facts, but minor stuff really (e.g., it's not 100% accurate that Mass. has abandoned county govt.; "township" is not an operative word in Conn. or Mass., and perhaps elsewhere in the New England states). If you are interested in this stuff (!), take a look at the front matter to American Places Dict, which I did in the early 90s. You should find it in larger libraries; it is an Omnigraphics publication. I talked about much of this in there, but with a different method of organization. I will reply to his and point out some things I saw, but overall it is remarkably good and thorough. Perhaps the most interesting thing that the variation shows is that US states are really quite autonomous and did set up their own "customized" way of doing things. The oldest colonies/states -- Virginia, Mass., Conn., etc. -- were virtual republics, and esp. so in the immediate post-colonial, pre-Constitution years. Vermont, Texas, and perhaps others actually declared themselves as independent states at one time. Early on, pre-Constitution (under the Articles of Confederation), I understand that some states sent out ambassadors to foreign nations. So the fact that the states are all over the place as to how they "do" local government, while surprising to discover, is historically explicable -- and tells a lesson about what makes America tick. All for local rule (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), Frank From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Nov 13 14:17:13 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:17:13 -0500 Subject: New Jersey hoagie Message-ID: I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two of the news commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New Jersey hoagie" as opposed to those in South Philly. Any suggestions I could use to accompany my contribution would be gratefully appreciated. Regards David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Nov 13 14:23:34 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:23:34 -0500 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? Regards, David Barnhart From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Nov 13 16:01:33 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:01:33 -0500 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I've heard the construction all my life. Bethany (se TX etc.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 16:43:48 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:43:48 EST Subject: Latte Liberal Message-ID: We had "limousine liberals" in New York... Pelosi mocked as S.F.'s 'latte liberal' Conservatives say her rise helps them Marc Sandalow, Washington Bureau Chief Wednesday, November 13, 2002 Washington -- As House Democrats prepare to make eight-term Rep. Nancy Pelosi their leader, a good portion of the ruling pundocracy seem to be having a grand time questioning -- if not outright ridiculing -- the party's judgment for turning to a San Franciscan. "Are the Democrats about to go insane?" begins a feature on Pelosi in the latest edition of the "Weekly Standard," a popular journal among conservatives. The story, running beside a cartoon sketch of the Pacific Heights resident is headlined: "The Pelosi Democrats: Are they going to become the stupid party?" While Republican Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois and current Democratic leader Dick Gephardt of Missouri hail from the heartland, Pelosi's left coast home evokes stereotypes too powerful for political image-makers to ignore. "Latte liberal," screams the conservative National Review. "About as San Francisco as you can get without digging up Jerry Garcia," says the Australian Financial Review to its readers halfway across the globe. (...) From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 13 16:54:35 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:54:35 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "dark-thirty" in Arkansas. does that help? PR On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart > From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 13 16:58:25 2002 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:58:25 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks in here in Macon, Georgia, use the expression crack-thirty for a little past sunrise. best to all, --- Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR > affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I > don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or > other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 13 17:06:55 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:06:55 -0800 Subject: New Jersey hoagie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Hoagie" is the operative term in South Jersey (Philadelphia influence), but as far as I know "Jersey hoagie" is not a term that is widely used. (I never heard it growing up, but it's been 20 years since I lived there.) Googling turns up exactly one hit for "New Jersey hoagie" that eventually links to a sub shop in Tampa, Florida. Searching on "Jersey hoagie" gets only five others, all sub shops from around the US, none in NJ, but all apparantly run by expatriate South Jerseyans. From the menu descriptions, the "Jersey" or "South Jersey" hoagies are ordinary italian subs (Capicola, Mortadella, Salami, Provolone, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, and Italian dressing on a roll). No difference between them and what you would get in a Philly hoagie. It sounds like someone filled with local South Jersey pride is trying to make a distinction without a difference. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Barnhart > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:17 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: New Jersey hoagie > > > I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two > of the news > commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New > Jersey hoagie" > as opposed to those in South Philly. Any suggestions I could use to > accompany my contribution would be gratefully appreciated. > > Regards > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 13 17:55:50 2002 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:55:50 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more: I just came across a book title, _Dark Thirty_, published in 1984. best, --- Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR > affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I > don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or > other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 18:05:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:05:12 EST Subject: New Jersey hoagie Message-ID: In a message dated 11/13/02 10:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two of the news > commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New Jersey hoagie" > as opposed to those in South Philly. According to a display on the "Shipbuilding" exhibit in the Franklin Institute (museum) in Philadelphia, the "hoagie" is named after Philadelphia's "Hog Island" shipyards, for whose workforce the hoagie was a favorite item of sustenance. I've never been able to check out this claim, but if it is true then Philadelphians can argue that a hoagie is a sandwich constructed on the Pennsylvania side of the Delaware River and therefore "New Jersey hoagie" is an oxymoron. South Jersey will presumably have to be satisfied with salt water taffy, monkey bread, and other local foods not claimed by Pennsylvania. - Jim Landau (resident of South Jersey for 16 years) "Nothing good comes out of Atlantic City except an empty bus" From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 13 18:36:00 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:36:00 -0800 Subject: New Jersey hoagie In-Reply-To: <197.107ea5c3.2b03ee58@aol.com> Message-ID: > According to a display on the "Shipbuilding" exhibit in the Franklin > Institute (museum) in Philadelphia, the "hoagie" is named after > Philadelphia's "Hog Island" shipyards, for whose workforce > the hoagie was a > favorite item of sustenance. > > I've never been able to check out this claim, but if it is true then > Philadelphians can argue that a hoagie is a sandwich > constructed on the > Pennsylvania side of the Delaware River and therefore "New > Jersey hoagie" is > an oxymoron. South Jersey will presumably have to be > satisfied with salt > water taffy, monkey bread, and other local foods not claimed > by Pennsylvania. > > - Jim Landau (resident of South Jersey for 16 years) The Hog Island explanation is perhaps the most commonly touted one. I've done some checking and I doubt that it's true. I can't conclusively disprove it, but I've found a more likely one. Barry Popik has traced "hoagie" to 1945 and the variants "hoogie" & "hoggie" to 1941 (See ADS-L archives). The Hog Island shipyard only operated from 1917-25, and from 1920-25 it was in the process of shutting down and was not employing large numbers of workers. The brief period of operation and the gap in years before the term's appearance makes the Hog Island explanation unlikely. More probable is the claim of coinage by Al De Palma. De Palma owned a chain of sub shops in Philly and styled himself "King of the Hoagies." He claims to have coined the term "hoggie" in 1928 when he saw a friend eating one, so-named because he thought his friend was being a hog in eating the whole thing. De Palma opened his first sandwich shop in 1936, recalled the name he had given it and started selling "hoggies." The spelling later shifted to "hoagie," probably by competitors. (Eames & Robboy, AS, 1967) The De Palma 1936 sub shop opening is much closer in date to the term's earliest known appearance, his claim is orthographically consistent with the earliest forms, and it is semantically similar to the synonym "hero" in that it is a reference to the sandwich's size. From pulliam at IIT.EDU Wed Nov 13 18:51:34 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:51:34 -0600 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I use noon-thirty--most often, I think, in structures such as "between noon and noon-thirty." I live in Chicago (ten years), spent 12 years in central Missouri, and most of my life before that in Mississippi and Tennessee. Greg Pulliam >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? > >Regards, >David Barnhart -- - Greg http://www.pulliam.org From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Nov 13 19:01:25 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:01:25 -0800 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: I think it is regional. I have never heard it in my life, but I like it and will try it out on several of my classes. I'll see how they react. (Three girls eating lunch in my room have never heard it and say it sounds funny). Fritz Oregon and Minnesota >>> ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM 11/13/02 06:23AM >>> One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? Regards, David Barnhart From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 20:43:13 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:43:13 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I haven't heard it publically, but my circle of friends have long used noon:30 (though this is the first time I've written it down), O'God hundred, & God o'clock in the morning. Not midnight:30, though. Rima (in SF Bay Area) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 23:01:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:01:57 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow(1941); DARE is almost here; Shorter OED Message-ID: SUGAR ON SNOW A DROP IN THE BUCKET: THE STORY OF MAPLE SUGAR TIME ON A VERMONTFARM by Muriel Follet Brattleboro, VT: StepehnDayePress 1941 (No page number; photo caption--ed.) Sugar on snow is made by boiling syrup until it is thick enough to wax on snow. Pickles--to take the sweet taste out of your mouth--doughnuts and coffee are Vermont accompaniments. (This book, like so much of the new New York Public Library, was "off site" in New Jersey--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. _DARE_ IS ALMOST HERE--I purchased the next volume of DARE months ago on Amazon. I got anote today announcing that it's been shipped. I'll lookat it before I make a Popik "Potlach" Post. SHORTER OED--See the large article by Warren Hoge in Tuesday's NEW YORK TIMES...Over ten years ago, I copied all my "Big Apple" material, copied all of Gerald Cohen's "Big Apple" material, and walked into the NEW YORK TIMES building. I asked to speak to someone about it. I was given a telephone,and I spoke to Warren Hoge. He told me that there was no one I could talk to--mail all my material directly to him. I did. It's been ten years, and he wasn't even kind enough to return my material in a self-addressed stamped envelope. Hoge was the first of about a dozen TIMES people who wouldn't even respond...Now, he gives a commercial publisher from England free publicity? DAVID SHULMAN'S BIRTHDAY--It's his birthday this month, and his home is throwing a monthly birthday party for everyone tonight, and he's _requiring_ me to attend. He told me that there will be plenty of women there, but "they'll all be senile." From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Nov 14 00:59:18 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:59:18 -0600 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: One more variation: the Army, and possibly the other services, have been using "Oh" dark thirty for years for the time before dawn (actually, probably before BMNT.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. Regards, David Barnhart From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Thu Nov 14 01:07:16 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:07:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone Message-ID: I can't afford to buy a new copy of the OED ($777 on ebay is the cheapest I can find), so I'm looking for a used set (or a really really discounted new set). Does anyone know where I might find a set for not too much money? I'd like the 2nd Edition. So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that we seem to be on the eve of war. The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. The daisy cutter is, for those who don't know, a 12,540 pound bomb, officially designated BLU-82 (and also nicknamed 'big blue 82'). During the gulf war, the Assad Babyle Iraqi tank (a version of the Soviet T-72) was nicknamed the 'Dolly Parton' due to it's rounded reinforced turret. Seems a certain sheep was not the first item to be named after the famous country singer. Anyone know of any other Parton-inspired names? Personally, I laughed when I heard the term 'dumb bombs' - regular gravity-guided bombs - as the counterparts to the newer laser-guided 'smart bombs.' Assigning intelligence to a bomb always seemed somewhat absurd to me. Paul Dickson's book War Slang has a good summary of terms from the civil war through the gulf war. Thanks, Philip Trauring From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 03:36:12 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:36:12 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow(1941); DARE is almost here; Shorter OED In-Reply-To: <31B0F3AE.08EBF237.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 06:01:57PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >Now, he gives a commercial publisher from England free publicity? Really? Which one? Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 03:51:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:51:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 08:07:16PM -0500, Philip Trauring wrote: > I can't afford to buy a new copy of the OED ($777 on ebay is the > cheapest I can find), so I'm looking for a used set (or a really > really discounted new set). Does anyone know where I might find a set > for not too much money? I'd like the 2nd Edition. If it's just the text you're interested in, you can get either the Compact Edition (requires a magnifying glass) or the CD-ROM, if you're burdened with a Windows machine. I think either of these could be had for less than $300 if you look. > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. Jesse Sheidlower OED From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Nov 14 04:26:25 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:26:25 -0700 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat Message-ID: I'm passing along this inquiry from a colleague. Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:44 -0700 From: Andy Barss Subject: word sources sought I was recently talking to a professional wood finisher, who asked me what the source of two terms was, the first of which is an odd extension of a term from finishing, the other of which is a compound whose origins he (and I) would like to understand. If you can shed any light on these, please drop me a line. (#1) "[give x a good shellacking]" which means in comon parlance to either (a) defeat decisively, or (b) to batter (beat physically, all over). This is somehow extended from the noun 'shellac' (also spelled "shellaq"), which is a transparent, alcohol soluble wod finish derived from the excretions of a beetle native to India. (It's also edible, and has major use in the food and pharmaceutical industries; you eat it on coated pills and M&Ms). The beetle is known as the lac beetle, and the usual source for 'shellac' is 'shell lac', the product in shell form (there's also stick lac, and buttonlac). The two possible sources that might make sense for the slang usage is either (a) when one coats something with shellac, it's a complete covering, so by extension from the completeness componnet we'd get 'to completely' do something, or (b) a dark red dye is made from shellac, and beating someone physically bruises them. This is all guesswork, so if anyone has something to add please email me. (#2) "spit coat" which means to give something (a tabletop, say) an exceedingly thin coat of a finish, often as a prelude to another, thicker coat of something else. My best guess is that this derives from the sense of 'spit' meaning to rain or snow very lightly, but that's just a guess. No dictionary seems to list it. Thanks -- Andy Barss From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Nov 14 06:38:06 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:38:06 -0800 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: <20021114035116.GC28071@panix.com> Message-ID: > > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. > > That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that > was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very > powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific > use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- > early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites > on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's > _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. The BLU-82 has been around since 1970. I don't know exactly when the term "daisy cutter" was applied to it, but I would guess shortly after its introduction. Technically, the term "daisy cutter" applies to the fuze assembly, a 38" rod that detonates the bomb about a meter off the ground (hence the name)--maximizing blast effect and minimizing crater (the fuze and bomb were designed to clear helicopter landing zones in the Vietnamese jungle, but are also very good at smashing up bunkers). The name "daisy cutter" transferred from the fuze to the bomb itself. RHHDAS has "daisy cutter" as a USAF bomb from 1966-67. This is probably a reference to 10,000 lb M121 bombs, WWII leftovers, that were also used in Vietnam to clear landing zones. The BLU-82 was invented to replace these as supplies of the old bombs were used up. BLU stands for Bomb, Live Unit. I also recall a Saturday Night Live sketch from the mid-70s (the one that asked the immortal question, "What If Napoleon Had B-52 At the Battle of Waterloo," with John Belushi as Napoleon and Dan Ackroyd as a B-52 crewmember.) In the sketch, Ackroyd refers to, IIRC, air-to-surface missiles as "daisy cutters." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 07:08:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:08:12 EST Subject: North West slang (1865) Message-ID: JOURNAL OF A TOUR ON THE NORTH WEST COAST OF AMERICA IN THE YEAR 1829 CONTAINING A DESCRIPTION OF A PART OF OREGON, CALIFORNIA AND THE NORTH WEST COAST AND THE NUMBERS, MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE NATIVE TRIBES by Jonathan S. Green New York: Chas. Fred Heartman 1915 (Originally published in the Missionary Herald, November 1830) A "miss" of a book from Jonathan Green. Here's an author (and ADS-L poster) who has delighted us in the past with his books on slang and jargon. He visited the North West Coast of America in 1829. Do I get a "potlatch"? Do I get a "muckamuck"? DO I GET A EVEN ONE SINGLE "GEODUCK"?? No! Don't buy this book! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- VANCOUVER ISLAND AND BRITISH COLUMBIA: THEIR HISTORY, RESOURCES, AND PROSPECTS by Matthew MacFie London: Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts, & Green 1865 Not written by Jonathan Green, but what's with the publisher? Could Longmans and the Greens get together a little? Pg. 163: FISHERIES (...) _Herrings_... _Hoolakans_ ascennd the streams in April in dense shoals. Their approach is indicated by the presence of sea-gulls swooping down to devour them, and causing the banks of the river to echo their screeching. This species are (Pg. 164--ed.) about the size of a small herring... (DARE has 1914 for "hooligan," with various other spellings given. There's a long discussion here--ed.) Pg. 165: The _hook-bill_ and _silver_ or _spring salmon_... Pg. 166: The _humpback_ species... Pg. 167: _Halibut_... The _smelt_... The _haddock_ and _whiting_ exist, and the _dog-fish_... Pg. 168: A certain species of _sea perch_... _Rock_, _skate_, _bass_, _anchovy_, and _flat fish_, may be added to this list. _Shrimps_ and _prawns_, too, are extensively caught in the neighbourhood of Victoria. (No "tuna," no "geoduck" here in 1865--ed.) Pg. 415: The slang in vogue in the mining regions is imported mainly from California, and is often as expressive as it is original. "Guessing" and "calculating" are exercises of perpetual occurrance. If one have the best of a bargain, he is said to have got "the dead wood" on the other party (Pg. 416--ed.) in the transaction. A mean and greedy man is "on the make;" and where a "claim" is to be disposed of, the proprietor is "on the sell." A conceited man thinks himself "some pumpkins;" and when any statement is made, the exact truth of which is doubted, it is said to be "rayt(illegible copy--ed.) a tall story." When a claim disappoints the hopes of those interested in it,l it has "fizzled out." Credit is "jaw-bone," and in one store on the road to Cariboo, the fullsize jaw-bone of a horse is polished, and suspended on the wall, with the words written under: "None of that allowed here." The ground of the allusion is evidently the product resulting from the motion of the jaw bei9ng the only security a needy purchaser has to offer. Another expression for wanting credit is "shooting off the fat." Deceit in business is "shananigan." A good road, ste(illegible--ed.) boat, plough, dinner, or anything else you please, is "elegant." When one has run off to avoid paying his debts, he has "skedaddled," or "vamoosed the ranch;" if hard-up, he wants to "make a raise." Owing to the remoteness of British Columbia from other centres of British population, it is called the "jumping-off place," another phrase for the end of the world. Any i(illegible) likely to arise from a given chain of events, is seen "st(illegible)ing out." When two parties are playing into each other's hands, with a sinister object in view, it is a case of "log-rolling." When the conduct of any one renders him likely to a whipping or something worse, he is "spotted." Pg. 420 (MINERS' TEN COMMANDMENTS): Neither shalt thou destroy thyself by getting "tight," nor "slewed," nor "high," nor "corned," nor "half-seas over," nor "three sheets in the wind," by drinking smoothly down the "brandy sllngs," "gin cocktails," "whisky punches," rum toddies," nor "egg nogs." Neither shalt thou suck "mint juleps," nor "sherry cobblers," through a straw; nor gurgle from a bottle the "raw material," nor "take it neat" from a decanter;... Pg. 430: The _potlatch_ (or ceremony of bestowing gifts) usually occupies a couple of days... Pg. 431: n a commercial apect, too, this system of _potlatching_ is highly objectionable, for the goods thus trandferred from year to year are not appropriated for the most part ot useful purposes;... From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 09:56:42 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:56:42 -0500 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >(#1) "[give x a good shellacking]" > > which means in comon parlance to either ... defeat decisively, or ... to > batter .... There is also "shellacked" = "intoxicated". (Ingestion of shellac by alcoholics is not unknown, but I doubt its relevance.) >The two possible sources that might make sense for the slang >usage is either (a) when one coats something with shellac, it's >a complete covering, so by extension from the completeness >componnet we'd get 'to completely' do something, or (b) a dark >red dye is made from shellac, and beating someone physically >bruises them. I find (a) conceivable, (b) unlikely. Here are my guesses; I find any of them plausible, or a combination. (1) Derivative of German "schlagen" (= "strike") or equivalent. Cf. supposed etymology of "schlock" (from Yiddish). Cf. "Our team really got clobbered", "I really got hammered on schnapps last night", "They really gave him a pounding". (2) Onomatopoeic (cf. "smack", "whack", etc.). (3) [The books seem to favor this one] Shellacking being the last step in finishing something; thus something shellacked is something completed, something which has been "finished off". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 12:16:01 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:16:01 -0500 Subject: etymological pun [off topic] Message-ID: Barry P said: >> DAVID SHULMAN'S BIRTHDAY--It's his birthday this month, and his home is throwing a monthly birthday party for everyone tonight, and he's _requiring_ me to attend. He told me that there will be plenty of women there, but "they'll all be senile." << No, Barry, not quite right. The women will be anile. But seriously, please wish David Shulman "Happy Birthday" from all his ADS colleagues. Frank Abate From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Nov 14 12:32:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:32:23 -0500 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat Message-ID: Just a guess on "spit-coat"--could it be related to "spit-polish" in which a small amount of shoe-polish is applied [w/spit] to dress shoes to give a glossy coating suitable for passing inspection? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 13:25:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:25:00 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: Wright's "English Dialect Dictionary" shows "canoodle" = "donkey" from Somerset, with a reference in "Notes and Queries" dated 1879. Wright also says "canoodle" is used "fig. of one who makes love foolishly or 'spooneys'". I could not find any other instances of "canoodle" = "donkey". However, in Clive Upton, David Parry, J. D. A. Widdowson, "Survey of English Dialects: The Dictionary and Grammar" (Routledge, 1994), p. 66, there is this entry: <> This is apparently represented by a single response from southern Devonshire (according to the map in the associated dialect atlas). As I understand it, somebody transcribed the word as "cornutor" and later "canuter" was chosen as a better spelling. I couldn't find any other instances of "canuter". Surely this must be the same as "canoodle" for "donkey". It is commonly thought that words for "donkey" are often originally given names, e.g., "jack[ass]", "jenny", "dick[y]", "neddy", possibly "moke" [from "Margaret"], possibly "cuddy" [from "Cuthbert"], and possibly "donkey" itself [from "Duncan" (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. So maybe "canuter" is from "Knud"/"Canute". [But if one is willing to hark back to King Canute, why not a little farther: a southern word might date from the Roman days and "canuter" might be from Latin "canutus" = "[the] gray [one]" or so. Similarly "moke" from "maccus". Just my idle notions; perhaps some of the experts can explode them at a glance.] As a possible irrelevancy, note that "cornutor" means "one who cornutes"; to cornute someone is to put horns on him, i.e., to cuckold him. Which brings to mind another possible connection: isn't a canoodler often at least a suspected cornutor? Here is a 'nonsense' use of "canoodle": "The King of Canoodle-Dum", by W. S. Gilbert (1869, I think): <> The whole ballad can be read at (e.g.) http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/bab_ballads/canoodle_dum.txt [The citizens of Canoodle-Dum are "Canoodlers".] Now of course Gilbert is a big name, and I suppose he may have been big enough back then to popularize "canoodle" to the extent that uncommon similar colloquialisms might have been altered slightly to match it: for example, perhaps (*)"canute" = "donkey" didn't really match "canoodle" so well before. And conceivably the spelling "canoodle" was favored on the basis of this poem (earlier citations have "conoodle"). "Canoodle-Dum" would seem to be "noodledom" modified to fit the meter, with or without prior knowledge of "conoodle", which is recorded from 1859. Maybe the Somerset "canoodle" shown by Wright represents conflation of originally distinct "canute(r)" = "donkey" with the verb "canoodle" = "smooch". On the other hand it's not impossible that earlier "canoodle" = "donkey"/"fool" was verbed, parallel with "spoon[ey]" or with "fool [around]" in the sense of "make love" ... this would be in line with the tentative etymology in MW3. But still, I sure like "canoodle" = "knudeln"! -- Doug Wilson From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Nov 13 21:53:16 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:53:16 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships Message-ID: It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy of this statement, re "legally correct". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:55 AM Subject: Re: Towns and Townships > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > Frank > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 14:34:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:34:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: <000701c28ba8$64fffda0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 10:38:06PM -0800, Dave Wilton wrote: > > > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > > > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > > > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > > > > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > > > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. > > > > That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that > > was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very > > powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific > > use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- > > early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites > > on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's > > _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. > > The BLU-82 has been around since 1970. I don't know exactly when the term > "daisy cutter" was applied to it, but I would guess shortly after its > introduction. Now that I'm back in the office, I see that we have an example of _daisy cutter_ referring specifically to the BLU-82 from 1971. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Nov 14 15:41:13 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:41:13 -0500 Subject: cross-checking In-Reply-To: <20021114143438.GB28318@panix.com> Message-ID: Has anyone heard a slang sexual sense for "cross-checking"? It might be AAVE slang. Ben From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Nov 14 15:42:41 2002 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:42:41 -0700 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: From: Barnhart : One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used : noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever : heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I've been using noon:30, noon o'clock, noon:17, &c. (along with midnight:30, midnight o'clock, midnight:17, and so on) since at least my mid-teens. (Born and raised in Southern Maryland, b. 1970.) I could never remember whether the noon hour matched up with PM and the midnight hour with AM or the other way around, so it was an easy way to disambiguate things like 12:30 without the danger of getting it radically wrong. Or at least that's the explanation I give when people ask me about it. I have no idea whether it's a completely ad hoc explanation or not, particularly since I don't only use it in cases where there's a danger of ambiguity. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 16:10:16 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:10:16 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships Message-ID: Bob F commented on my posting as follows: >> It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy of this statement, re "legally correct". << What I meant by "legally correct" was that, per my reading of the Constitution and historical precedents at the time of the secession of Southern states, they had every right to do so. Nothing I found in the US Constitution disallowed secession. What DID disallow it was Lincoln's strong-willed political stance, backed by the armies of the Union. Armies always trump constitutions. And with the conclusion of that war, a precedent was set. Now I expect it would be very hard, if not unconstitutional, for a state to secede. Needless to say, the Confederacy was not, so to speak, politically correct. Frank Abate > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > Frank > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 16:28:32 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:28:32 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good show. I didn't believe the "Upset" story, but now I can substantiate my position. Here is a Web mention of the myth about "Upset", from about a year ago. (I found the assertion about the word origin here and elsewhere on the Web but without attribution.) http://www.seabiscuitonline.com/guestbook14.htm <<... for years it has been lore in racing that the use of the word to mean the unexpected defeat of a favorite originated with Man o'War's loss to the racehorse Upset. It's a great story, but unfortunately, it doesn't hold up. According to Dorothy Ours, who is currently writing the definitive Man o' War biography, Chain Lightning, this race has nothing to do with that use of the word "upset." She was able to locate numerous incidences in which the word was used by journalists in this sports context prior to that race. Indeed, when Man o' War lost, journalists covering the race pointed out the remarkable coincidence that he lost to a horse named Upset.>> -- Doug Wilson From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 14 18:07:08 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:07:08 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: I only saw the stories in NYC newspapers and the Washington Post, and thought while I was reading them that the writers, with the sports-reporter's sure grasp of the obvious, should have made more play on the coincidence, if "upset" had had that established sense. But the woman Doug Wilson cites has certainly read much more than I had. I still would like to know when the idea that that race gave the word that sense originated. Perhaps we can suppose that the sense gained currency outside of horseracing through Upset's upset of Man o' War, so that it seemed like a novelty to those who only followed tennis or football. The Historical NYTimes is moderately tedious to search, but perhaps a check for "upset" and football or upset and tennis before and after 1919 might show something. The searching I did in the latter 19th C for upset and racing turned up some stories about boat races, but there I think probably the reference was always to a literal overturning of one of the boats. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Date: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:28 am Subject: Re: "Upset" in horseracing > Good show. I didn't believe the "Upset" story, but now I can > substantiatemy position. > > Here is a Web mention of the myth about "Upset", from about a year > ago. (I > found the assertion about the word origin here and elsewhere on > the Web but > without attribution.) > > http://www.seabiscuitonline.com/guestbook14.htm > > <<... for years it has been lore in racing that the use of the > word to mean > the unexpected defeat of a favorite originated with Man o'War's > loss to the > racehorse Upset. It's a great story, but unfortunately, it doesn't > hold up. > According to Dorothy Ours, who is currently writing the definitive > Man o' > War biography, Chain Lightning, this race has nothing to do with > that use > of the word "upset." She was able to locate numerous incidences in > whichthe word was used by journalists in this sports context prior > to that race. > Indeed, when Man o' War lost, journalists covering the race > pointed out the > remarkable coincidence that he lost to a horse named Upset.>> > > -- Doug Wilson > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 14 19:10:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:10:17 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114112324.04ad9a10@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: OK, so this all leaves me with the question with which I believe I started the original thread some time ago: If the term "upset" meaning an unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one of the biggest upsets of all time? Even if the owner chose the name because he had some dreams of the horse someday doing something terrific, what are the chances that the horse would ever be in the position to pull off an historic win, or that the horse would be good enough to pull off the win but not so good as to make it not an upset? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 20:03:52 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:03:52 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one tends to say "the Coast." Peter R. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 20:05:23 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:05:23 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114063805.049c7480@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. Still does for me. Rima From snatchcat at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 14 20:02:51 2002 From: snatchcat at YAHOO.COM (Seth Thatcher) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:02:51 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent advances in hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more popular and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf children will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign language. Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means of communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. The study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will remain a part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price of ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the discussion group on this issue. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Nov 14 20:21:18 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:21:18 -0500 Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: Physical geography seems to vary in its use of "the." At least in my case, "the" is always used for oceans and seas: the Atlantic Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea. I rarely use it for lakes: Lake Michigan, Moosehead Lake (but compare the Great Salt Lake, its salinity perhaps conferring sea-like attributes). I don't refer to sounds very often, so I don't have an established practice. Rivers seem to go either way: either Mississippi River or the Mississippi River is fine with me. There does seem to be some difference between the two, but I can't articulate quite what it is. John Baker From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 14 20:23:42 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:23:42 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred > to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a > background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the > reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the > Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is > pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the > woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of > the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up > to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're > all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one > tends to say "the Coast." > > Peter R. > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 20:35:58 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:35:58 EST Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: In New York, we say "Long Island Sound", without a "the". Steve Boatti From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 21:08:41 2002 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:08:41 EST Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: This response is a little late, but in Cincinnati the 30th was called "damage night". That was for all the pranks described in this list. We also had "penny night" the night before that. We went out with our bags or cups and knocked on doors yelling "penny night" and collected money. I'm not sure what the justification for that was, but it was a pretty good deal. Lois Dr. Lois Nathan Maitre de Conférences Université du Havre Le Havre, France From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 14 21:29:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:29:18 -0500 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0800 11/14/02, A. Maberry wrote: >For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would >only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage >is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really >isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. > >allen >maberry at u.washington.edu That's how Long Island Sound works around here (southern Connecticut), or on the Island (where I used to live). Either "They live on Long Island Sound" or "They live on the Sound", but never (as Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. larry > >On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > >> Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred >> to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a >> background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the >> reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the >> Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is >> pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the >> woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of >> the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up >> to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're >> all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one >> tends to say "the Coast." >> >> Peter R. >> From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 14 21:57:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:57:51 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > That's how Long Island Sound works around here (southern > Connecticut), or on the Island (where I used to live). Either "They > live on Long Island Sound" or "They live on the Sound", but never (as > Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. > > larry Good one! Lexis-Nexis has a couple of cites for "the Puget Sound" (admittedly I only searched "Puget Sound"+"grunge" and in the process came up with: Denver Rocky Mountain News, May 7 1994: "... Kemp couldn't find the Puget Sound from Pier 70." Seattle Times, Feb. 22 1993: "...the city on the Puget Sound." In my experience it works as described for Long Island Sound: "I have a house on Puget Sound." [unfortunately not true] "I have a house on the Sound." "He couldn't find the Puget Sound from the Bremerton Ferry." *"I have a house on the Puget Sound." ?"Anyone who falls in the Puget Sound will die of hypothermia in minutes." Certainly the last sentence depends on stress. I don't think there would be any question about "Anyone who falls into the *PUGET* Sound [as opposed to some warmer sound] will die of hypothermia in minutes." allen maberry at u.washington.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:07:31 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:07:31 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. > > larry I'll bet there are a few groups like that, but Allen Maberry is likely to know more about them. And don't forget the occasional "Pungent Sound," although the place is still (I hope!) far from being a Superfund site. Peter From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:11:41 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:11:41 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants Message-ID: My friend Fred Farrior, who teaches ASL here, sent this on in reply to the query about cochlear implants. PR Hi, It is same story in the past. Have you seen the videotape "Sound and Fury"? I think this article might be interesting for you. Fred 13 PEOPLES DIED BY COCHLEAR IMPLANTS Government Warns on Ear Implants Thursday, July 25, 2002 Last updated at 11:25:53 AM PT THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON At least 13 people with cochlear implants to restore their hearing have come down with meningitis, including two preschoolers who died, the government said Thursday - warning that the implants might allow an infection to fester deep in the ear. In addition to the U.S. illnesses, health authorities are investigating at least another dozen meningitis cases and seven deaths among cochlear implant recipients in other countries. The Food and Drug Administration so far has found no evidence that the implants are contaminated, stressed medical device chief Dr. David Feigal. Any material implanted in the body, from heart valves to artificial joints, can allow infections to fester that the body otherwise could clear, he explained.Some deaf patients have inner-ear abnormalities that predispose them to meningitis by letting bacteria build up near the brain even without a cochlear implant. But the implants may prove an additional risk factor, Feigal said. So the FDA on Thursday issued an alert to doctors urging them to report any additional uspicious meningitis cases - and urging that they aggressively treat ear infections in patients who have cochlear implants and make sure that child patients are properly vaccinated against meningitis.The meningitis cases appear to be caused by a bacterial infection that can be prevented with a vaccine called Prevnar, which the government now recommends that all children get by age 2. The 13 U.S. patients ranged in age from 21 months to 63 years old. The two children who died were between ages 2 and 3. Meningitis is most dangerous to the very young and the elderly. About 22,000 Americans have cochlear implants, which send auditory signals to the brain to restore hearing in people with certain types of hearing loss. They are supposed to get preventive antibiotics during the implantation, the FDA said. Quoting Peter Richardson : > I thought you two might like to weigh in on this one. Just write to > the > "To:" address below. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:02:51 -0800 > From: Seth Thatcher > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? > > I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent > advances in > hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more > popular > and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts > speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf > children > will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign > language. > Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means > of > communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. > The > study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that > regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will > remain a > part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still > wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our > society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price > of > ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the > discussion group on this issue. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://w From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:13:33 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:13:33 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants (addendum) Message-ID: Fred added this: Peter, I forgot to add: More Deaf mainstreaming students with cochlear implants transfer OSD [Oregon School for the Deaf] from the public schools and I have noticed them using ASL instead of the speaking. I have asked them if they like the implant or not. Some of them like it for noisy environment and difficult to listen what other people talking about. Other students don't like because their hearing parents want them to use it for their communications. It is similiar to me using my hearing aid for noisy environment that all. It is same story for 100 years. Fred From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Nov 14 22:22:26 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:22:26 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships Message-ID: My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the people. My preference is the latter. That view avoids much of the rhetoric about state's rights (which the Supreme Court chose to ignore\d in the Bush v Gore case out of Florida). Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: FW: Towns and Townships > Bob F commented on my posting as follows: > > >> > It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy > of this statement, re "legally correct". > << > > > What I meant by "legally correct" was that, per my reading of the > Constitution and historical precedents at the time of the secession of > Southern states, they had every right to do so. Nothing I found in the US > Constitution disallowed secession. What DID disallow it was Lincoln's > strong-willed political stance, backed by the armies of the Union. Armies > always trump constitutions. And with the conclusion of that war, a > precedent was set. Now I expect it would be very hard, if not > unconstitutional, for a state to secede. > > Needless to say, the Confederacy was not, so to speak, politically correct. > > Frank Abate > > > > > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > > > Frank > > > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:14:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:14:30 -0500 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #>One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used #>noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever #>heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? # #I haven't heard it publically, but my circle of friends have long #used noon:30 (though this is the first time I've written it down), #O'God hundred, & God o'clock in the morning. Not midnight:30, though. I've heard "oh-dark-thirty" = 12:30 a.m. I thought it was military slang. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:24:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:24:23 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #>... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. # #Still does for me. # #Rima Same here. I seem also to have somehow picked up an occasional (< 20%??) pronunciation with low back rounded "o", which is not part of my usual phonology at all. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:27:21 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:27:21 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: <01b601c28c2e$1b15e840$74d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Robert Fitzke wrote: #My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, #whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." # #The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and #thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the #people. Would those who want to discuss this topic, which is clearly off topic for this list, please take it to private email? -- Mark A. Mandel From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 23:45:55 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:45:55 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound Message-ID: Got this response from a friend in Seattle, which seems to confirm what some of the rest of you have said: >Haven't actually heard this, but I'll start listening. What's normal for me >is: > >The Sound >The Puget Sound area > >I rarely use Puget Sound, unless describing the geography. Seattle lies >bewtween Lake WA and Puget Sound. Etc. What do otherfolks say/hear? > >If it's starting here, I'm sure you'll soon hear about "the SF Bay." Yikes. > >bill From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 23:55:44 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:55:44 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > >If it's starting here, I'm sure you'll soon hear about "the SF Bay." Yikes. Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? Maybe it's already here... PR From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 00:01:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:01:20 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? #Maybe it's already here... "San Francisco Bay Blues". -- Mark A. Mandel: 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s folkie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 00:02:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:02:24 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? Actually I answered too quiickly. It's I got the blues from my baby down by the San Francisco Bay -- Mark A. Mandel, old folkie overdue for his dinner but unable to pull himself away from the keyboard From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 00:47:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:47:03 -0500 Subject: "Oiee" Clams, "Potlach" in NORTHWEST COAST (1857) Message-ID: THE NORTHWEST COAST; OR, THREE YEARS' RESIDENCE IN WASHINGTON TERRITORY by James G. Swan New York: Harper Brothers 1857 An important book with a "Chenook" glossary. Is this cited by OED or DARE? I tried to get Elwood Evans' WASHINGTON TERRITORY (Olympia, 1877). Try that on NYPL's CATNYP. There's no call number! So I had another day of conferences with librarians... Pg. 47: ...salmon-berry, or wild raspberry (_Rubus spectablis_) Pg. 61 illustration (caption): OYSTERMEN WAITING FOR THE TIDE. Pg. 85: The large clams and quahaugs are more prized by the Indians than oysters. The large clam called by them metar or smetar are found in the sand about a foot deep. (...) The quahaug or hard-shell clam, called by them clolum, is found near the surface, and in some locations perfectly bare. Pg. 86: My favourite method of cooking these shell-fish was to make a chowder of the quahogs, and after cleaning the great sea clam, roll them in meal, and fry them with salt pork. The long sand clam or razor-fish was also cooked by frying. Another clam, resembling the common clam of Massachusetts in shape, is also found, and usually eaten raw by the Indians. This is called by them aryuk, and, fried in butter, is very nice. Pg. 103: The Chenook salmon... Pg. 140: There are several varieties of fall salmon, the most plentiful of which is the hawk-nosed, or hook-billed, or dog-tooth salmon (for it has all those names). Pg. 165: There is many a poor fellow who has lost his health by living on "flippers" fried in pork fat because he could not get any saleratus, that might have saved the troubles consequent upon sickness in the miner, had he known this simple recipe. Pg. 174: Crows, eagles, owls, blue jays, and various beasts and reptiles, are the representations of bad spirits, or devils, and are called _skookums_. (Various entries in a Chenook or Jargon Glossary follow--ed.) Pg. 412: Ar'yuck, small clams. Pg. 413: Chett'low, oysters. Clo'lum, quahaug clam. Metar or sme-tar', large sea-clams. Pg. 416: Boston, _Eng._, American Clo-Clo, _Che._, oysters. Pg. 418: Muck'a-muck, _Che._, food, to eat. Pg. 419: Oiee, _Che._, small clams. (The origin of "geoduck"??--ed.) Oo'moor, _Che._, large sea clams. Pot'lach, _Che._, give or gift. Si-wash', _Fr._ (sauvage), Indian. Skoo'-kum, _Che._, strong. Skoo-kum' or Sku-kum', _Che._, evil spirits. From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Nov 15 00:57:48 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:57:48 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I got the blues from my baby down by the San Francisco Bay aha. And the word of interest here is _the_. Are there other such bays/sounds/harbors? From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Nov 15 01:00:55 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:00:55 -0800 Subject: heb'm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a phonetics question. In the common [hEbm] pronunciation of _heaven_, there's something like a naso-pharyngeal release (?) between the [b] and the [m]. Articulating this thing (whatever it is--a consonant?) with any force can be almost uncomfortable. Is it kosher to think of this as something akin to svarabhakti? Peter R. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Nov 15 01:14:24 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:14:24 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All One of the ways I can tell whether somebody who is speaking is a "real" Puget sound native is whether or not they refer to the body of water in question as "the Puget Sound" or not. If they do say "the Puget Sound", I'm almost certain they came from somewhere else. Recently. It's true that people around here tend to refer to Mt. Rainier as "the Mountain", but no native who hasn't completely lost his or her senses would ever refer to "the Puget Sound". It even sounds weird to me. Anne G "A. Maberry" wrote:For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred > to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a > background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the > reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the > Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is > pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the > woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of > the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up > to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're > all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one > tends to say "the Coast." > > Peter R. > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 01:37:03 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:37:03 EST Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: In a message dated 11/14/2002 4:30:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). I did circa 1982, but unfortunately only in an "apa" (a pre-electronic "mailing list") so only about a dozen people saw it. The inspiration was reading about a strict noise ordnance [sic] in Seattle, so strict that "no self-respoecting rock band could accept it". So I postualated a "soft rock" group called "the Puget Sound". My contribution was part of a running gag that started when someone wrote about "Sidney the Weretrain" ("were" as in "werewolf") which inspired such comebacks (not from me) as "Am-trak", "has-been sleeping car", and "ought-to-have-been diner". There was also a gag about how a certain Old Testament translator from "the" Puget Sound area was so sly that he became known as the "Everett Fox". Seriously, Albemarle Sound, Pamlico Sound, Block Island Sound, and any others I can think of do NOT take "the". In Puget Sound you have "Hood's Canal" (no definite article" but "the Tacoma Narrows". The bridge crossing that last body of water is officially "the Tacoma Narrows Bridge" but unofficially "Galloping Gertie number 2". Similarly "the Mississippi River" but "Old Man River." a short catalog of bodies of water takes the definite article when used as nouns rivers seas, including "the Tappan Zee" (in "the" Hudson River) oceans narrows (as in "the Verrazona Narrows", known to New Yorkers as "the Narrows") deltas currents (the Gulf Stream) gulfs straits do not take the definite article) lakes (including Great Salt Lake, at least for me) lochs sounds harbors creeks runs (Virginia term for a small river, e.g. "Bull Run") waterfalls falls (Baltimore sense of a stream filled with rapids, as "Jones Falls" in downtown Baltimore) cataracts (except for the First etc. Cataract on the Nile) bayous springs sinks (at least not Humboldt Sink in Nevada) sloughs fiords sometimes yes sometimes no Hood's Canal versus the Erie Canal Jamaica Bay versus the Bay of Bengal (perhaps the "of" makes the difference) - Jim Landau (probably all wet) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 01:38:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:38:41 -0500 Subject: Meeting-House In-Reply-To: <5800B58C.4E407E86.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > call, but c'mon!!...The American Periodical Series online is not > finished yet. PUCK and LIFE and SPIRIT OF THE TIMES aren't online yet. > It's going to get much better in the next six months. It's like the > American Memory and Making of America databases in that you have to keep > checking it for new additions--ed.) Barry, do you find, as I do, that American Periodical Series has a huge percentage of false hits for the earlier years, like 90%? I find this substantially detracts from its usefulness. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Nov 15 03:05:35 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:05:35 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! from the West Coast Patty At 06:24 PM 11/14/02 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > >#>... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. ># >#Still does for me. ># >#Rima > >Same here. I seem also to have somehow picked up an occasional (< 20%??) >pronunciation with low back rounded "o", which is not part of my usual >phonology at all. > >-- Mark M. From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Fri Nov 15 02:35:17 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:35:17 -0400 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: <20021114200251.63456.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have to say that if I had to choose between ending deafness and losing sign language, I'd end deafness. Let's not forget that those who are deaf can also not appreciate music nor hear a car horn (perhaps before an accident). Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot speak?) will continue to use sign language... Philip Trauring At 12:02 PM -0800 11/14/02, Seth Thatcher wrote: >I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent advances in >hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more popular >and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts >speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf children >will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign language. >Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means of >communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. The >study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that >regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will remain a >part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still >wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our >society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price of >ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the >discussion group on this issue. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 04:40:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:40:59 -0500 Subject: American Periodical Series online; Scampi(1883?) & Bagel(1908?) Message-ID: AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE Yes, there are a _huge_ number of false hits on the American Periodical series online. The first "iced tea" was the one I gave here. The earlier "hit" wasn't a hit. Take "canoodle"--please! 12 early false hits! Take "shyster." Over 50 hits before Gerald Cohen's first citation, but none of them are for "shyster"! It's a tool. The Gerritsen Collection search engine is poor, too. But APS is going to get much better with the added publications, and it's definitely worth checking, despite the false early hits. All that time I wasted today looking for "canoodle" in medical publications! AH!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. SCAMPI?--The book FISHES OF THE ADRIATIC SEA (1883) is "off-site." The New York Public Library is closed on Sunday and Monday, and the offsite fellows don't work on Saturday, so I should have an earlier "scampi" sometime next millennium. BAGEL?--Look at the book THE SHORES OF THE ADRIATIC: THE AUSTRIAN SIDE--THE KUSTENLANDE, ISTRIA, AND DALMATIA (New York: E. P. Dutton and Company, 1908) by F. Hamilton Jackson. There's a photo with the caption: "HERZEGOVINIAN WOMEN AT A BAKER'S SHOP IN RAGUSA _Frontispiece_" Ragusa is Dubrovnik. The women are posing by a circular bread thing that looks an awful lot like a "bagel." Or maybe it's a "donut"? Take a look. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 08:52:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:52:53 EST Subject: Gusla, Kollo (1848); Turban Cowboy; DARE's here! Message-ID: I'll probably visit Temple University this Monday. The library's Urban Archives has clippings files of the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, the PHILADELPHIA BULLETIN, and the PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS. I need better Philadelphia coverage because ProQuest Historical Newspaper won't be doing Philadelphia for at least another year. I'll look for an earlier "hoagie" in the Temple University student publications. DARE'S HERE--It's here! Only about two days after Amazon sent me an e-mail!...I can't invite a woman to this apartment, but I looked under "poor boy," and it's nice to know that this mess is the "Popik Collection." VIKRAM CHATWAL, TURBAN COWBOY--The headline in this week's (18 November 2002) NEW YORK OBSERVER. It's a nice pun on the movie URBAN COWBOY, which is a little old by now. Chatwal is a rich playboy in the big city, but besides him, who else does this term apply to? DALMATIA AND MONTENEGRO by Sir J. Gardner Wilkinson London: John Murray 1848 OED has "gusle" from 1869 and "kolo" from 1911. I has posted an 1851 "kollo." I finished just volume one of two. Pg. 35: ...their favourite _gusla_. (...) ...and the name _guslar_, or player on the cithara, being applied to a "wizard," appears to argue the use of it in the days of Pagan superstitions. Pg. 169: They call it _collo_*, from being, like most of their national dances, in a _circle_. *Collo, or Kollo, signifies "circle." There is another _collo_, danced by women at marriage fetes, which I shall mention afterwards. Pg. 393: These, as well as the _Scoranza_, and the _Castradina_, or mutton hams, are principally for re-exportation to Venice and other places. Pg. 428: ...smoked mutton (_Castradina_) salt fish (_Scoranza_)... Pg. 440: ..._gusla_*... *Pronounced gussla, or goosla. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 15 12:34:17 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:34:17 -0500 Subject: "We the People" v. "states' rights" Message-ID: Bob F pointed out: >> My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the people. My preference is the latter. That view avoids much of the rhetoric about state's rights (which the Supreme Court chose to ignore\d in the Bush v Gore case out of Florida). << This is an excellent point, in my (non-lawyer) view. I had not considered the fact that the whole thing starts with "We the People of the United States . . ." One can still make a case for states' rights, though, or at least, historically, states have, and it has been an important topic for discussion down through they years. Notably, a few weeks ago the New Jersey Supreme Court ruling allowed Lautenburg to run for US Senator in lieu of Torricelli, who had withdrawn from the race after the deadline to file for candidacy. The US Supreme Court chose to pass on this case, making the NJ ruling stand -- a wise decision, I think. So did they do it our of respect for NJ "states' rights" or the rights of the people of NJ? I suppose it is a purely academic issue. Please excuse if this is too much off-topic. Frank Frank Abate Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS) Consulting & Lexicographic Services (860) 349-5400 abatefr at earthlink.net From AHami93942 at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 14:06:42 2002 From: AHami93942 at AOL.COM (Anne Marie Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:06:42 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/14/2002 9:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one > who cannot > speak?) will continue to use sign language... Also, those who can't afford the technology, particularly in developing countries... From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:21:02 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:21:02 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: <1B024933.308866A1.09D19963@aol.com> Message-ID: Other factors: 1) Signers who sign ASL (or some other version of sign) do not know the grammar of English. Hearing is only a first step for them. (Signers who uses "Signed English" may have some advantage.) 2) BUT. Signers do not have a sound-based phonological system (and the degree to which sign phonology will transfer to acoustic/auditory phonology is unknown). In short, an implant will let you hear "noise," but, although noise is a prerequisite for an acoustic/auditory phonology, it is only the foundation. In other words, signers who can "suddenly hear" may be at even more of a language learning disadvantage than a hearing adult learner of a second language. dInIs PS: Of course I have simplified (e.g., as regards a motor theory of speech perception), and I have not taken sociocultural factors intro consideration at all (as others have already done). In a message dated 11/14/2002 9:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one > who cannot > speak?) will continue to use sign language... Also, those who can't afford the technology, particularly in developing countries... -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 15:05:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:05:41 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114190227.00ab9ec0@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 PM -0800 11/14/02, Patty Davies wrote: >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > >from the West Coast > >Patty > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal morpheme boundary.) larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 15:32:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:32:19 EST Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > morpheme boundary.) I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or /'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this happens). However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last syllables rhyme. Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South Jersey for 33 years. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 15:40:31 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:40:31 EST Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense Message-ID: At a meeting at work yesterday we discovered that a typo had changed the word "formal" to "format". Everybody at the meeting seemed to be a little rattled by this type, because of the connection with "to format one's hard disk", which is a very disastrous thing to have happen to one's PC-compatible. Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 15:59:26 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:59:26 -0500 Subject: "Cat sliver" Message-ID: The sound of two trees rubbing together in the wind was called a "cat sliver" by a childhood friend of my husband's in Wyoming more than half a century ago. Is anyone familiar with this expression? A. Murie From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Nov 15 16:02:46 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:02:46 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <73.291c701d.2b066d83@aol.com> Message-ID: This ("honky") is again different for me. I say and am sure I have always heard: "donkey" /'dawnk ee/ "monkey" /'muhn kee/ "honky" /'hawnk ee/ and you pronounce "honky" as /'huhn kee'/ which is "hunky" to me. So you pronounce "honky" and "hunky" the same way? And I also find it *very* interesting that the politically incorrect words rhyme. I wonder how widespread the pronunciation is so that this rhyming is the case. You would think this would have been picked up on for a sociolinguistic study (oooh, a new research project :) ). Patty At 10:32 AM 11/15/02 -0500, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > > morpheme boundary.) > >I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or >/'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable >boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this >happens). > >However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I >can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, > /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last >syllables rhyme. > >Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South >Jersey for 33 years. > > - Jim Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 16:07:57 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:07:57 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: Jim Landau writes: >However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >rhymes with "monkey". ~~~~ If I heard "honky" rhyming with "monkey"( as I pronounce it), I would assume it was "hunky" or sexy. I pronounce the vowel in "donkey," " honky" & "wonky" exactly the same, as nearly as I can tell. A. Murie From jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA Fri Nov 15 16:08:37 2002 From: jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA (James McIntosh) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:08:37 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:35 PM 11/14/02 -0400, you wrote: >Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot >speak?) will continue to use sign language... > >Philip Trauring mute, or deaf-mute Jim McIntosh From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Nov 15 16:28:37 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:28:37 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honkey Message-ID: For me donkey & monkey rhyme with schwa or caret [^] as the vowel but honkey is [a] or [U] Brooklyn-born but lived on LI 1942-1958 _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 16:39:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:39:09 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0500 11/15/02, sagehen wrote: >Jim Landau writes: >>However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >>rhymes with "monkey". >~~~~ >If I heard "honky" rhyming with "monkey"( as I pronounce it), I would >assume it was "hunky" or sexy. >I pronounce the vowel in "donkey," " honky" & "wonky" exactly the same, as >nearly as I can tell. >A. Murie Ditto, except for "donkey", which as noted I rhyme with "monkey" (with a caret/schwa, while "honky" and "wonky" have a script [a]). But I think I may have started out with that vowel in "donkey" too, switching to "monkey" later on in life. larry From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Nov 15 17:25:21 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:25:21 -0500 Subject: Databases: was Meeting-House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:38 PM 11/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Barry, do you find, as I do, that American Periodical Series has a huge >percentage of false hits for the earlier years, like 90%? I find this >substantially detracts from its usefulness. To Barry and Fred, and anyone else concerned with the accuracy of the databases. With the 100th anniv. of the teddy bear, and The Washington Post's claims that they started it all with the Berryman cartoon (what about the Bear named Theodore Roosevelt aka Teddy at the Bronx Zoological Park in 1901?) I did some searches on ProQuest Times Full text. The Times ran a series called the Roosevelt Bears starring Teddy-G and Teddy-B by Paul Piper starting on January 7, 1906. I wasn't trying to antedate anything (actually I was doing it for my mom - the certified Bear repair-woman). Anyway, the point is that this series ran from Jan 6 to about June 22 in what looks to be 28 installments every Sunday. Approx. 16 of the installments seem to be missing. Makes me wonder what else isn't there. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 15 17:27:47 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:27:47 -0500 Subject: Donkey/monkey/honky Message-ID: Patty Davies on the West Coast writes: >> This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! And Larry Horn says, >> Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But >> "honky" rhymes with neither... Also on the East Coast, I agree with Larry. But the preferred (though not the only) dictionary pronunciation (AmHer, RH) of "donkey" *does* rhyme it with "honky"--and not with "monkey." --Dodi Schultz From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Nov 15 17:41:37 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:41:37 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asks: "If the term "upset" meaning an unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one of the biggest upsets of all time?" I think that the fact that Upset upset Man o' War is an example of the working out of the Shandy-Lack Theory of Nomenological Determinism. You will all recall that Tristram Shandy's father believed that a well-chosen or ill-chosen first name determined whether a child's life would be happy or troubled, and had chosen the name Trismegistus for his baby boy. But by some confusion which I right now forget, the baby was baptised Tristram, whence all the sorrows he was to later know, starting with, but regrettably not ending with, the falling window-sash that caused such a dire amputation when he was still an infant. This preiminary version of the Shandy-Lack theory is spelled out in Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy, for those of you who want to study it further. David Lack was an English ornithologist -- his first book was The Life of the Robin -- who refined the theory and extended it to last names in a paper that enumerated the ornithologists whose last names were the names of species of birds, or parts of birds, as for instance Wing. I read this essay many years ago, and forget where. He published a book in 1964 called Enjoying Ornithology, which isn't available to me now, but sounds a more likely source than any of his other books. Thus, the Shandy-Lack Theory of Nomenological Determinism holds that by the very force of its name, a horse called "Upset" would be destined to achieve the greatest upset in horse-racing history, and such proved to be the case. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Shapiro Date: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:10 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" in horseracing > OK, so this all leaves me with the question with which I believe I > startedthe original thread some time ago: If the term "upset" > meaning an > unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it > remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one > of the > biggest upsets of all time? Even if the owner chose the name > because he > had some dreams of the horse someday doing something terrific, > what are > the chances that the horse would ever be in the position to pull > off an > historic win, or that the horse would be good enough to pull off > the win > but not so good as to make it not an upset? > > Fred Shapiro > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale > University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------- > From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Nov 15 18:54:23 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:54:23 -0800 Subject: Databases: was Meeting-House In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021115120743.00b39528@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: > Approx. 16 of the installments seem to be missing. > Makes me wonder what else isn't there. I've noticed with the MOA database, much of the problem is with the scanning and optical character recognition of the texts. The information is there and is correct in the graphical representations of the pages, but the search engine works off the scanned text, and the optical character recognition makes a lot of errors. You can see this easily with MOA because that service allows you to look at both the scanned text and a picture of the original. For example, I was searching for "Y'all" and kept getting hits for "Wall" (very frustrating). The OCR had transliterated W into Y' in many instances. (Hint: If you are searching MOA for a word that begins with W, try searching for it as Y') I would bet that many of the other databases suffer from a similar problem. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 19:04:22 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:04:22 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. A. Murie From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Nov 15 22:30:40 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:30:40 -0600 Subject: "shyster" in American Periodical Series Online Message-ID: Barry, I don't understand this. How can there be over 50 hits on "shyster" before "my" first citation without any of them being for "shyster"? Also (for ads-l), to give credit where credit is due, the earliest two attestations of "shyster" (July 29, 1843, spelled "shyseter," "shiseter") and several later ones were spotted not by me but by Roger Mohovich (pronounced Muh-HOH-vich), former librarian at the New York Historical Society. I presented them in my first monograph on "shyster," with full acknowledgment to Mohovich for his discovery. Jerry >At 11:40 PM -0500 11/14/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE > > Yes, there are a _huge_ number of false hits on the American >Periodical series online. > The first "iced tea" was the one I gave here. The earlier "hit" >wasn't a hit. > Take "canoodle"--please! 12 early false hits! > Take "shyster." Over 50 hits before Gerald Cohen's first >citation, but none of them are for "shyster"! > It's a tool. The Gerritsen Collection search engine is poor, >too. But APS is going to get much better with the added >publications, and it's definitely worth checking, despite the false >early hits. > All that time I wasted today looking for "canoodle" in medical >publications! AH!!!! From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 23:25:29 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:25:29 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Philip Trauring wrote: #I have to say that if I had to choose between ending deafness and #losing sign language, I'd end deafness. But the right to choose lies properly with each deaf person. Hearies like me may only have and ... uh ... voice opinions. #Let's not forget that those who are deaf can also not appreciate #music nor hear a car horn (perhaps before an accident). # #Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot #speak?) will continue to use sign language... Mute. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 16 00:23:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >A. Murie Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking (but not Spanish-speaking) world. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 16 01:19:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:19:10 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Obituary for Allen Walker Read in The Times [of London] Message-ID: I'd forgotten (if I ever knew) that AWR was born in Winnebago, not to be confused with being born in a Winnebago. Larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2925. Mon Nov 11 2002. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 13.2925, All: Obituary: Allen Walker Read Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:33:23 +0000 From: J E Joseph Subject: Obituary: Allen Walker Read (1906-2002) Allen Walker Read, the doyen of American English studies, died on 16 October 2002 at the age of 96. The obituary in today's Times (London) can be accessed on http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,60-472767,00.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2925 --- end forwarded text From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Nov 16 05:55:45 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:55:45 -0700 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" (unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). Rudy (Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas (Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution open in one hand. The implications are clear.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 16 08:39:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:39:19 EST Subject: Kotch 'em going & coming (1906); Pinata Message-ID: KOTCH 'EM GOING & COMING ACROSS THE PLAINS NAD OVER THE DIVIDE: A MULE TRAIN JOURNEY FROM EAST TO WEST IN 1862, AND INCIDENTS CONNECTED THEREWITH by Randall H, Hewitt New York: Argosy-Antiquarian Ltd. 1964 (Originally published in 1906) Pg. 18: Like the negro in the story they "Kotch 'em going and kotch 'em coming." (What negro in what story? How old is the sucker terminology "they get you coming and going"?--ed.) Pg. 101: Conversation around these neighboring camps ran at a lively rate, and a continued jargon of voices mingled in one uninterrupted stream of words. There was always enough interest to keep up an unflagging current of noisy talk. We heard more western phrases during those neighborly associations than ever before got to our ears. Such expressions as "packing water," "right smart," "right peart," "freuit," for all kinds of table sauce; "right smart of wood," "right smart chance," "quite a few," "carry the horses (or oxen) to water," "buckut," for water pail, and numerous other colloquialisms to an endless degree. (See the new volume of DARE for "right smart" and "pack-water"--ed.) Pg. 249: Such prairies as we found to-day, and to be met with everywhere, are called "Holes" in Rocky Mountain phraseology. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PINATA William Safire's column this Sunday discusses "pinata." Lead story! I posted right here the first citation for "pinata," so I looked for my name. If the first citation comes from a reference work such as OED, Safire almost always cites that. Citing my work would be helpful to his readers. It would be helpful to a fellow ADS member. And it wouldn't cost him anything at all. Here's a case where he'd have to go out of his way NOT to help me. My work is never mentioned. From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Nov 16 10:53:16 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 04:53:16 -0600 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: As sort of a midwesterner (Illinois & Missouri, but I've been in the Army for a long time, which may be a vocational dialect), I would rhyme donkey with honky but not monkey; monkey I rhyme with Hunky (semi-derogatory for the Hungarians I married into.) Small "h" hunky, as attractive, I have heard only as a feminine expression about men. Dave Hause ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > morpheme boundary.) I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or /'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this happens). However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last syllables rhyme. From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:46:57 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:46:57 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense Message-ID: Speaking as someone with over 25 years in the software industry, I have to say this usage is new to me. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com James A. Landau wrote: >At a meeting at work yesterday we discovered that a typo had changed the word >"formal" to "format". Everybody at the meeting seemed to be a little rattled >by this type, because of the connection with "to format one's hard disk", >which is a very disastrous thing to have happen to one's PC-compatible. > >Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new >sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:47:19 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:47:19 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I > think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Gee, and I thought "squoze" was standard English. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com > From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:55:11 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:55:11 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: My wife is the only person I ever knew who pronounces donkey to rhyme with monkey. She's from the Bronx, so maybe it's a New York City phenomenon. However, I've known lots of New Yorkers but never heard that pronunciation from any of them. Then again, the word donkey doesn't come up in conversation all that often. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com Rudolph C Troike wrote: > For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed >dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do >wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is >common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). > > Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, >Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could >never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had >the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the >pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" >(unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). > > Rudy > >(Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas >(Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the >Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution >open in one hand. The implications are clear.) > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Nov 16 19:04:41 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:04:41 -0600 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: I doubt that the implants will become that "universal" (cost factors have already been brought up, but there also remain questions of culture and attitudes towards "fixing" something that is -- in many deaf people's opinions -- "not broken"). They only work for some types of hearing loss, and the huge problem with (possibly fatal!) infections remains; notwithstanding the wisdom of introducing yet another series of "vaccinations" that may or may not really work, into the system of a very small child who does not have full immune system functioning yet. The question of culture is huge. You can never "cure" all types/causes of deafness with surgery, and there is also a wide spectrum of responses to a diagnosis of deafness (which happens, it is my understanding, on averagee by age nine months in Israel, and by 40 months in the US), ranging from intensive acoustic traingin of what hearing the child may have, and sole use of spoken language and speech training, to eschewing all hearing aids and raising the child mono-culturally deaf and using only ASL. Most parents, of course, end up somewhere in the middle of those extremes, utilizing ASL, speech training, lip reading, and some degree of hearing aids. But I have perosnally know people on both extremes also. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Nov 16 19:20:31 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:20:31 -0600 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: I have not been able to follow all of the replies here for the last week or so, so forgive me if I bring up something someone else already has.... I have worked a fair amount among the Old Order Amish on their use of both English and "Plain German", and I have heard (and seen, in many sources) Plan Pennsylvania German, referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch" many many times. I assume that (likely because of the German word for German, which is "Deutsch") a lot of the people claiming they were raised hearing "Dutch" spoken in New York State and elsewhere on the East Coast, were actually hearing (at best) dialects that mixed German and Dutch, and were referred to as "Dutch" because that is how the speakers labeled their own language (most Amish, when they say ""Deutsch" pronounce it more like "Deitch"). Many Amish, even though their spoken language is definitely more like German than Dutch, still call it "Dutch". I cannot understand spoken Dutch, but I can understand spoken "Plain German". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at home & > don't remember which one) > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From oliversplace at MSN.COM Sat Nov 16 21:02:38 2002 From: oliversplace at MSN.COM (Jeff Oliver) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:02:38 -0600 Subject: artical Message-ID: I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of Journalism. I'm writing an artical about researchers who use google to track usage or other aspects of English. If you can help or know someone who can, please respond. I appreciate it. Jeff _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 16 23:17:38 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:17:38 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Jeff Oliver writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Uh, for starters.... From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 16 23:52:59 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:52:59 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard 'donkey' with a schwa from time to time in Ohio but haven't pinned it down to subregion yet. The other day an African American announcer on the local NPR affiliate used it with ref. to a coffee shop called "Donkey Cafe" (don't ask me why). At 10:55 PM 11/15/2002 -0700, you wrote: > For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed >dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do >wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is >common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). > > Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, >Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could >never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had >the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the >pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" >(unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). > > Rudy > >(Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas >(Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the >Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution >open in one hand. The implications are clear.) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Nov 17 00:18:30 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:18:30 -0500 Subject: rhyming odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115074704.00ab24c0@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: I think Jim meant that 'monkey' and 'honky' are "politically incorrect." But why would either 'monkey' or 'donkey' be considered un-PC? At 08:02 AM 11/15/2002 -0800, you wrote: >This ("honky") is again different for me. I say and am sure I have always >heard: > >"donkey" /'dawnk ee/ >"monkey" /'muhn kee/ >"honky" /'hawnk ee/ > >and you pronounce "honky" as /'huhn kee'/ which is "hunky" to me. So you >pronounce "honky" and "hunky" the same way? And I also find it *very* >interesting that the politically incorrect words rhyme. I wonder how >widespread the pronunciation is so that this rhyming is the case. You >would think this would have been picked up on for a sociolinguistic study >(oooh, a new research project :) ). > >Patty > >At 10:32 AM 11/15/02 -0500, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >> > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! >> > >> > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But >> > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion >> > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" >> > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal >> > morpheme boundary.) >> >>I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or >>/'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable >>boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this >>happens). >> >>However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >>rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I >>can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, >> /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last >>syllables rhyme. >> >>Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South >>Jersey for 33 years. >> >> - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 17 01:12:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:12:01 -0500 Subject: rhyming odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021116191516.01931c98@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 7:18 PM -0500 11/16/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Jim meant that 'monkey' and 'honky' are "politically >incorrect." But why would either 'monkey' or 'donkey' be considered un-PC? As discussed recently, Howard Cosell's reference to an African-American football player with the line "Look at that little monkey run" or something of the sort landed him in hot water for what was considered a racist insult. Other black athletes like Patrick Ewing have been more intentionally insulted by signs held up by fans in opposing stadiums or arenas comparing them to gorillas or monkeys. Donkeys I'm not sure enough. For linguists and philosophers, there's the matter of donkey anaphora. Sentences like Every farmer who owns a donkey beats it. If a farmer owns a donkey, he beats it. are of theoretical interest because of the difficulty in accounting for the reference of "it", and this was recognized by scholastic philosophers in the medieval period. Peter Geach used their example in his modern version of medieval logic, and such sentences have come to be known in formal sentences as "donkey sentences". Un-PC they clearly are (though better than discussions of "Do you still beat your father?" or "Do you still beat your wife?" in work on presupposition). But the LSA, in its wisdom (I was a member of the executive committee when this was taken up as part of the language reform initiated by the Committee on the Status of Women), determined that authors in _Language_ would be able to continue to use donkey sentences because of their historical importance, although no new examples involving gratuitous violence to animals (or people) would be countenanced. Still, I'm pretty sure that's not what Jim had in mind. (Maybe it's that donkeys are the Democrats' symbol, and we know how un-PC *they* are after the recent elections. Or that donkeys are jackasses. Naah.) larry From oliversplace at MSN.COM Sun Nov 17 01:25:38 2002 From: oliversplace at MSN.COM (Jeff Oliver) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:25:38 -0600 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Artical: 29,000 hits. At least I'm not alone. Maybe I should write an article about google as a support group. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dodi Schultz Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: artical [sic] Jeff Oliver writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Uh, for starters.... From Friolly at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 01:32:30 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:32:30 EST Subject: odds and ends>Ali Message-ID: Does anyone remember the extremely insulting and racist jabs that Muhamed Ali made at Joe Frazier? I don't remember exactly what Ali said, but I do remember the facial caricatures. Sickening. Fritz > Other black athletes like Patrick > Ewing have been more intentionally insulted by signs held up by fans > in opposing stadiums or arenas comparing them to gorillas or monkeys. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 17 02:35:25 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: >> Artical: 29,000 hits. At least I'm not alone. Maybe I should write an >> article about google as a support group. ;-) Hey, at least you've got a sense of humor. Sorry I can't answer your question (I'm a journalist, not a language researcher--although I do run a usage site on CompuServe). I make frequent use of Google (doesn't everyone?), but not for that purpose. Perhaps someone else on the list may be able to help. --DS From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Nov 17 02:49:38 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:49:38 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Actually, Google does come up from time to time. Why not just search for Google and see the cases where people have cited it on the list? You can search the ADS-L archives at http://www.americandialect.org/adslarchive.html John Baker From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Nov 17 06:57:55 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:57:55 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 2002 to 16 Nov 2002 (#2002-295) In-Reply-To: <20021117050102.8D2B34CFE@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:20:31 -0600 > From: Millie Webb > Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > > I have not been able to follow all of the replies here for the last > week or so, so forgive me if I bring up something someone else already > has.... > > I have worked a fair amount among the Old Order Amish on their use of > both English and "Plain German", and I have heard (and seen, in many > sources) Plan Pennsylvania German, referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch" > many many times. I assume that (likely because of the German word for > German, which is "Deutsch") a lot of the people claiming they were > raised hearing "Dutch" spoken in New York State and elsewhere on the > East Coast, were actually hearing (at best) dialects that mixed German > and Dutch, and were referred to as "Dutch" because that is how the > speakers labeled their own language I grew up in the Catskills region, in Ulster County, NY, in the 1950's. And I _never_ heard "Dutch" used to mean anything but Netherlandish. The area was Dutch-speaking at one time, became bilingual (English and Dutch), and then primarily English-speaking. (Some of the "Dutch" settlers were francophones from Germany -- religious refugees from Belgium -- and some may have had Frisian as their native language.) To the best of my knowledge, "Dutch" also means Netherlandish rather than German in the New York City metropolitan area. Including the parts of New Jersey which used to be Dutch-speaking. > (most Amish, when they say > ""Deutsch" pronounce it more like "Deitch"). Many Amish, even though > their spoken language is definitely more like German than Dutch, still > call it "Dutch". I cannot understand spoken Dutch, but I can > understand spoken "Plain German". -- Millie ----- Original Message > ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > > > > J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at > > home & don't remember which one) _________________________________ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 07:31:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:31:56 EST Subject: Mexican Shower; Geoduck (1909); Telegraph Stew (1870); Fado (1890) Message-ID: MEXICAN SHOWER SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE is really bad. A time-traveling Scott Joplin interviewing women's tennis stars? Was there a point or a joke that I missed? In the show that just ended. "Michael Moore" was interviewed about the liberal loss on election day. Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. I didn't find "Mexican shower" in the RHHDAS or in the CDS. There aren't many web hits. Most of the "Mexican shower" hits are for porn sites--YOU can check them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GEODUCK (continued) GILL'S DICTIONARY OF THE CHINOOK JARGON compiled by John Gill Fifteenth edition Portland, Oregon: J. K. Gill Company 1909 Pg. 14: Clams. Razor clams, O'na. little neck, Luck-ut-chee; quahang or large round clams of Puget Sound is called "Smetock" on the northen coasts, and the largest of all "go-duck." (What date is the first edition, and who has it?...I spent all day looking at Chinook language books, and this was the only one that had "geoduck"--ed.) CHOIR'S PIONEER DIRECTORY OF THE CITY OF SEATTLE AND KING COUNTY: HISTORY, BUSINESS DIRECTORY, AND IMMIGRANT'S GUIDE TO AND THROUGHOUT WASHINGTON TERRITORY AND VICINITY by M. Choir Pottsville: Miners' Journal Book and Job Rooms 1878 Pg. 116 (THE EDITOR'S LECTURE ROOM): Clams are of three kinds, and very plentiful. No starvation possible in Puget Sound, for clam-bed crops never fail, and when the tide is out the table is set, free to all the hungry that wish to eat. Crabs, oysters, and many other varities of fish are to be found here, a full description of which will be given in my next number. (Next number? There's nothing after 1878!--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TELEGRAPH STEW ALASKA AND ITS RESOURCES by William H. Dall Boston: Lee and Shepard 1870 A fine book, but no "hoochino" antedate here. Pg. 29: In the afternoon Ingechuk brought us some white grouse and some fresh reindeer meat. Of the latter a delicious dish was concocted, which I will describe for the benefit of future ecplorers. It was invented by the members of Kennicott's party during the first year's explorations. The frozen reindeer meat was cut into small cubes about half an inche in diameter. An equal amount of backfat was treated the same way. Hardly covered with water, this was simmered in a stewpan for nearly an hour; water, pepper, and salt being added as needed. When nearly done, a little more water was added, and the finely broken biscuit from the bottom of the bread-bag slowly stirred in, until the whole of the gravy was absorbed. This done, we sat down to enjoy a dish which would have awakened enthusiasm at the table of Lucullus. It was known among the initiated as "telegraph stew," and the mere mention of its name would no doubt touch, in the breast of any one of them, a chord of electric sympathy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FADO I went through some Portuguese books, but failed to find the Portuguese donuts popular in Hawaii. I was going to copy the books, but the NYPL was packed this Saturday and I didn't want to spend an hour on line. I made light notes. ROUND THE CALENDAR IN PORTUGAL by Oswald Crawfurd London: Chapman and Hall, Limited 1890 Pg. 54: ...those strange airs into the minor key which the Portuguese call _fados_... (OED has 1902 for "fado"?--ed.) Pg. 245: ...-broa_ or black bread... SPANISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY by L. Higgin WITH CHAPTERS ON PORTUGUESE LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY by Eugene E. Street New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons 1906 Pg. 294: ...accompanied by a bit of rye-bread or of _broa_, the bread made from maize. SKETCHES OF PORTUGUESE LIFE, MANNERS, COSTUME AND CHARACTER by A. P. D. G. London: Geo. B. Whittaker 1826 Pg. 142: ...delicious fruit (pinhoes)... Pg. 169: ...vacca com arros, or galinha com arros*... Pg. 304: ...cachaca (a species of rum)... (What does OED have? I found just one stray citation--ed.) Pg. 311: ...queijados...requeijoes... (The former is described as a "white cheese." Longer description this page--ed.) Pg. 320: Bacalhao... Pg. 321: ...cajado... Pg. 344: ...balo padre... (Longer description this page--ed.) Pg. 345: ...atum... (Longer food description this page--ed.) PORTUGAL: ITS LAND AND PEOPLE by W. H. Koebel London: Archibald Constable and Co. Ltd. 1909 Pg. 391: _Canja_, for instance, is a popular dish (Pg. 392--ed.) of chicken broth and rice; _Cosido_ consists of boiled chicken, bacon, and sausage, with an important foundation of rice, and these and many others beyond that are similarly fortified. Pg. 392: _Guizado_ or _Ensopado_, as it is termed in the Alemtejo, a species of Irish stew... From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Nov 17 08:38:25 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:38:25 -0600 Subject: Mexican Shower Message-ID: Sounds a lot like what I used to hear my mother talk about as a "PTA bath." Of course, at the time, I just thought it was just something one did before a Parent Teacher Association meeting. Several Google hits with less delicate descriptions, first one http://www.jmasterton.com/sample1.htm . DaveHause ----- Original Message ----- From: MEXICAN SHOWER From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Nov 17 10:49:25 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:49:25 -0500 Subject: FW: Mexican Shower Message-ID: Re Barry P's post cc'd in part below, I have personally heard this (and I still use this myself -- both the term and the shower), but called a "Polish shower". Being half Polish I find it funny. And as for "Mexican shower", I would think that there is another way to interpret, playing off the concept/term "wetback". With apologies to the PC crowd, Frank Abate ************************ In the show that just ended. "Michael Moore" was interviewed about the liberal loss on election day. Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. I didn't find "Mexican shower" in the RHHDAS or in the CDS. There aren't many web hits. Most of the "Mexican shower" hits are for porn sites--YOU can check them. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Nov 17 12:07:34 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:07:34 -0000 Subject: Polish shower Message-ID: http://www.hatsofftolarry.com/day87.htm offers: 'I've noticed that budget travelers love to put on deodorant without taking a shower. This is sometimes referred to as an "English shower" or a "Polish shower." Personally, I do not condone this practice. I would rather smell like the ass of a yak then put deodorant on a greasy, sweaty armpit.' Jonathon Green From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Nov 17 00:37:37 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:37:37 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >>S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >>Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >>out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >>I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >>of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >>A. Murie > >Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking >(but not Spanish-speaking) world. > >larry ~~~~~~~ Um. Not quite a parallel! AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Nov 17 14:54:10 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My favorite is from the Polish-speaking world. Before WWII, "Alfons" was a Frenchified but perfectly reasonable Polish name. After (during?) the war, it took on the meaning "pimp." I met a guy in Krakow once (in his 50's in the 70's) who hemmed and hawwed when I asked him his name. Of course, it was "Alfons." I'm not sure, but I would suspect that the "Randy" handle for "Randolph" died in Britain (when it became a synonym for "horny," as it did not in the US - surely the case since I was once introduced to a "Randy Cox" with nary a giggle). dInIs > >>My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >>>S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >>>Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >>>out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >>>I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >>>of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >>>A. Murie >> >>Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking >>(but not Spanish-speaking) world. >> >>larry >~~~~~~~ >Um. Not quite a parallel! >AM > > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Nov 17 14:46:20 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:46:20 -0500 Subject: this century Message-ID: I just heard a report from NPR news that stated the coming Leonid meteor shower might prove to be the most spectacular "this century." I presume they mean between now and 2100. But one might suppose that they mean the most spectacular in "a century." I haven't been following this thread in the news and am not an astronomy buff. I was struck by the audacity implied in the reference to "this century" and the future. Regards, David Barnhart From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 17:51:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:51:05 EST Subject: Runza (1950) Message-ID: The new volume of DARE has "runza.: This is the earliest trademark information for the place (not necessarily the food)...."Sashima" is an item I did not expect to be in DARE, but it is. My NEW YORK TIMES antedate must have been too late. "Roux" is an item I _did_ expect to be in DARE, but it's not. John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK explains "Creole roux" and "Cajun roux." I'd put it in my top ten of Louisiana regional foods. Typed DrawingWord Mark RUNZA Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: SANDWICH-LIKE FOOD ITEMS FOR CONSUMPTION ON OR OFF THE PREMISES. FIRST USE: 19500000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19500000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73113590 Filing Date January 25, 1977 Registration Number 1119748 Registration Date June 5, 1979 Owner (REGISTRANT) RUNZA DRIVE-INNS OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION NEBRASKA 1501 N. 56TH ST. LINCOLN NEBRASKA 68504(LAST LISTED OWNER) RUNZA NATIONAL, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF NEBRASKA 5931 SOUTH 58 ST., SUITE D P.O. BOX 6042 LINCOLN NEBRASKA 68506 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record CARL J SJULIN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19990325 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Nov 17 17:07:16 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:07:16 -0500 Subject: Runza (1950) Message-ID: I'm inclined not to count this an Americanism. It comes from _beurre roux_, meaning "brown butter," according to MW10 The reduced form of the term, i.e. _roux_, may however be an Americanism. Cajun roux and Creole roux are interesting American variants. I imagine there are plenty of food terms which are compounds one formative element of which is either Creole or Cajun. There may even as in this case be both Creole ... and Cajun ... with significant differences. Regards, David Barnhart From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 20:18:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:18:19 -0500 Subject: Scrapple (1848) Message-ID: DARE has "scrapple" from 1855. This is from the online ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES. April 1848, GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK, volume 36, pg. 233: Accessible Archives Search and Information Server Query “scrapple” Press your "BACK" Button to RETURN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... practice. There were plates of coarse dough-nuts, crullers, and waffles, all children of the same family. Also, hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple; cucumbers pickled yellow, and cabbage pickled purple; a saucer of large black lumps, which were quinces, preserved hard; and another of small black ... From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Nov 17 20:41:30 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:41:30 -0800 Subject: Mexican Shower; Geoduck (1909); Telegraph Stew (1870); Fado (1890) In-Reply-To: <16a.1733db04.2b089fec@aol.com> Message-ID: The oldest I can find is the 9th ed. (Portland, Ore. : J.K. Gill, 1882) 60 p. (15th ed has 84 p.) New York Public claims to have the ninth ed. in hard copy and the 10th (1884) in hard copy and on microfilm. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > --------------------------------------------- > GEODUCK (continued) > > GILL'S DICTIONARY OF THE CHINOOK JARGON > compiled by John Gill > Fifteenth edition > Portland, Oregon: J. K. Gill Company > 1909 > > Pg. 14: > Clams. Razor clams, O'na. little neck, Luck-ut-chee; quahang or large round > clams of Puget Sound is called "Smetock" on the northen coasts, and the > largest of all "go-duck." > (What date is the first edition, and who has it?...I spent all day looking at > Chinook language books, and this was the only one that had "geoduck"--ed.) > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 20:55:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:55:15 -0500 Subject: Pepperpot (1791) Message-ID: See the latest DARE for "pepperpot" (1794). This is from the American Periodical Series online. It is NOT "Philadelphia pepperpot." (I doubt I'll have time for that tomorrow in Temple). The citation is a mess to read, but it's what they have. Notice that "toad in a hole" appears as "toad in hell." In answer to Gerald Cohen, all of the early APS "shysters" are not that at all. What comes up is just early APS garbage. Searching collections: APS Online Article Display Article 25 of 25 Publisher Info. Mark article Article format: Cite/Abstract Full Text Page Image Saves this document as a Durable Link under "Results-Marked List" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Picture of Jamaica The Massachusetts Magazine; or, Monthly Museum. Containing the Literature, History, Politics, Arts, Manners & Amusements of the Age (1790-1796); Boston; Feb 1791; Anonymous; Volume: 3 Issue: 2 Start Page: 79 Full Text: Copyright American Periodical Series I Feb 1791 Theatrical Anecdote-.- O/r Tamales. 79 His fidelity to his friends, Lois tender his , his love for Lois country, his patience,: his courage, hall be the constant theme of our conversations, and tlie object of our . We will never forget his we will ends to , and leave them an precedents to those unto forgive Its. The words of I, moved hearts ofthe Athenians who only replied by acclamations. That volatile people, to Thorn it was only to point out the path of , to engage them to purple it, heaped praises on Pl,, and conducted house with every (tration of jolt. observed his pro-life; he quarried arid blade leer happy; hc no expense on the education of the daughter of ; and when the had: attained leer sixteenth year, he alligned her a portion, and left her at liberty in the choice of ;' Band. CAL WHEN l.ee was manager at Ed. , he was determined to improve upon thunder, and fo having, proctored a parcel of nine pound [hot,: they pelt into a wheel barrow, to Chicle he affixed as octagon wheel. This done, ridges were placed at the back of the Rage, and one of flue C; was ordered to trundle this wheelbarrow, fo filled, backwards and forwards ridges.The play was Lear, and really in the two first efforts the thunder had a good enact. At length, as the kin,, was .r the pelting of the: dorm, foot nipped, and don n he came wheel barrow and all. glue A N E C D O T A,. liege being on a declivity, the balls node their way towards the r a, and meeting with but a feeble re( froth flee Scene, laid it flat 'upon its face. This Form was more for Lear to - the one he had before of. The balls taking every direction, lie was obliged to about to avoid them like man who dances else egg lore tripe. 'the fiddlers, in alarm for their cat gut, hurried oust of talc , arid to crown this Scene of glorious , flee ling tenderer lay prof bate in the Alit of the audience, like another . P I (I T IT R F of A M I C A. [By a Wit, who at Part And l 1 JAMAICA is the dunghill of the J universe; the Vole creation; tile clippings of the ; a pile of , jumbled into an emblem of chaos; neglected by omnipotence `` hen he formed the world in its admirable order; tile nursery of heaven's judgements, where the malignant feeds of (. were first gathered Scattered the regions of the earth, to punitive mankind for their of fences; the place where Pandora filled her box-where Vulcan fired Jove's thunderbolt; and that Phaa?ton, by his ra.th misguidance of the Em, Scorched into a cinder; the receptacle of vagabonds-and the of banI; sickly as an hospital, as dangerous as the plague-as hot as . -as w--as its monarch: . . . S` to tornadoes, hurricanes and earthquakes, as if flee island, like people, were troubled with the dry . The chief of provisions is flea turtle, or toad in a (hell, Heaved , its own gravy: Its lean is as as a green girl; its fat of a dif; colour; and is excellent to } ut a a flux; and rge out part of ill liquors it bly creates. The belly is called , back , and it is Served up to the table In its own , of platter. Alley have Guam nas, , and crabs; the firR be ihD an animal, nipped like a lizard, but lilacs and larger; cond, a land tortoise, Chicle needs no , being as numerous as frogs In otiose parts, and last row in Bill ! ground [ of Jamaica. like rabbits; fo that the whole itl.nd may justly be called a crab warren: They arc fatted near the , where they will make st of a corpse in as little time as a tanner will Hay a Chit; or a hound devour a of mutton after 1. They shave beef without fat, lean mutton without gravy; and fools as tender as the udder at an old and as juicy as a from tile haunches of a cart horle. Milk is fo plenty that you may bury it pence a quart; but cream ho very { that a firkin of bitter, of their own making, should be no coldly a Jewel, that the richell nian in the ifland world be `'nable to purchase it. They valise themselves greatly upon the of their pork, which indeed is luscious, but as flabby as the at one jutI ripen from a diarrhea, and to be forbidden as in all hot countries, and among the Jews, for the prevention of the . There is very little veal, and that lean; for in England you may nurse four children much cheaper, than you can one calf in Jamaica. They have coarse teal, alveoli as big es ducks, and ducks as big as geese: But as for their geese they are all Fijians, for never few one in the inand There are sundry forts of fith, with omit scales, and of a serpentine complexion. eat as dry as [had, and touch ( than pale herrings, or old ring, with oiled glitter to the Sauce as rank as grease, improv. hell with the palatable relish of a stink sing anchovy. They make a rare , they call a pepperpot. It is all excellent breakfast for a salamander, or a good preparative for a agent, ulna, eats fire one that he may "et better vitals :the next. Three ho inflamed my mouth, that? had I devoured a : peek of horde radish, and drank after it a gallon of , and gunpowder, Dives like, I not have been more importunate for of seater to cool my tongue. They ,, in a fright called a Cole, not unlike an apt.1 but longer: It is (oft and very juicy, blat fo great an acid, and of a nature do , that by erotic one, it drew lily like millers , and made my palate din rough): and as {ore, as if I had been gargling nay mouth with ,: Of water alla they have plenty. The former is of as cold a quality as a ; and: wail dissolve in your month like: a. hot frying pal); an(l is as tothe eater, and I believe as ,: as a call of rock water to a man in a hectic fever. The latter are I arge and luscious, but too much watry, to be. good. Cocoa nuts and nuts are hi great anions the The former they reckon meat, drink; and cloth; t the eatable part is fe. chore by fo a magazine, requires a :y well armed with axe and , to lied ape, fuge to the kernel; and when he 1 done it will not r his . latter is as big as a filbert; like a beautiful woman, wel I and infectious; if Yost venture totally it is of ill consequences Their is black and japanned by nature,. needing art; the kernel white -: to the palate, bitt-of 'oh powerful operation, that by take ing two, my bowels were swept as clean as ever man a vault, or any of the black fraternity, a chimney. They leave oranges, lemons, limes, and federal oilier fruits, as [ end crabbed as themselves, not given Hem at a blotting, but a i for eating fo many four things, generates a corroding Lime in the bowels; and is one great ;On of that fatal erable distemper, dry ,; which in a fort piglet, or three weeks, takes assay life of fo that these are forced to be led about by Negroes. A man , nder theist may be Mid to be the Escutcheon of Else , complexion of the patient being the field, bearing, or, with the emblems of , pros per : by two , fables; and the . Man! other fruits here are, Chicle are worth eating, naming, nor :de. Scribing; ),ich are never tared but in , and Pliers in a A DISSERTATION From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 21:42:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:42:45 -0500 Subject: Pope's Nose (1855); Scripture Cake (1896) Message-ID: DARE has "pope's nose" (1866) and "scripture cake" (1906). I do not imply that these items are related. Caution should be used in serving them together. Both of these citations are from the American Periodical Series online. 1 December 1855, GRAHAM'S AMERICAN MONTHLY MAGAZINE OF LITERATURE, ART, AND FASHION, pg. 527: She sees them (Chickens--ed.) dressed (undressed I would call it, for there is not a feather on them) and lying fat and quiet on their backs, with wings folded and legs crossed; their heads are gone, but it matters not, for there is small expression in the head of a hen, 'tis in the side bone, as I think, one looks for that, and in the pope's nose. September 1896, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, pg. 27: MRS. M--At the cake table at the bazaar sell what is known as a "Scripture Cake." With each cake should go a typewritten copy of the receipt included in a sealed envelope: Four and a half cups of 1 Kings 4:22; One and a half cups of Judges 5:25 (last clause); Two cups of Jeremiah 6:20 (sugar); Two cups of 1 Samuel 30:12 (raisins); Two cups of Nahum 3:12; One cups of Numbers 17:8; Two tablespoonfuls of 1 Samuel 14:25; Season to taste of II Chronicles 9:9; Six of Jeremiah 17:11; Half cup of Judges 4:19 (last clause); Two teaspoonfuls of Amos 4:5 (baking powder). Follow Solomon's prescription for making a good boy, Proverbs 23:14, and you will have a good cake. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 22:15:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:15:20 -0500 Subject: Mayonnaise, or Hellmann's (1926) vs. Schlorer (1911) Message-ID: I was asked to check out Schlorer's mayonnaise (the first commercial mayo?) while in Philadelphia. Here are trademark records: Word Mark HELLMANN'S Goods and Services IC 029 030. US 046. G & S: MAYONNAISE, SALAD DRESSINGS, SANDWICH SPREAD, AND TARTAR SAUCE. FIRST USE: 19260801. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19260801 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71567382 Filing Date October 21, 1948 Registration Number 0514280 Registration Date August 23, 1949 Owner (REGISTRANT) BEST FOODS, INC., THE CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 1 EAST 43RD STREET NEW YORK NEW YORK (LAST LISTED OWNER) CPC INTERNATIONAL INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME FROM DELAWARE INTERNATIONAL PLAZA ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS NEW JERSEY 07632 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record STEVEN L. CATALANO Prior Registrations 0252155 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19890823 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark MRS. SCHLORER'S Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Mayonnaise. FIRST USE: 19110600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19110600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75495644 Filing Date June 3, 1998 Published for Opposition March 21, 2000 Registration Number 2356614 Registration Date June 13, 2000 Owner (REGISTRANT) VENICE MAID FOODS, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 270 North Mill Road P.O. Box 1505 Vineland NEW JERSEY 083601505 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record JORDAN S WEINSTEIN Prior Registrations 1201339 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Other Data The name "MRS. SCHLORER" does not identify a living individual. Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark MRS. SCHLORER'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029 030 032. US 046. G & S: MAYONNAISE [ , SALAD DRESSING, FRENCH DRESSING, FRUIT NECTARS, FRUIT JUICES, TABLE SYRUPS, FRUIT FLAVORED SYRUPS FOR FOOD PURPOSES, HONEY, PICKLES AND PICKLE RELISHES ]. FIRST USE: 19110600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19110600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 71693937 Filing Date August 30, 1955 Registration Number 0634157 Registration Date September 4, 1956 Owner (REGISTRANT) MRS. SCHLORER'S, INCORPORATED CORPORATION PENNSYLVANIA SCOTTS LANE PHILADELPHIA PENNSYLVANIA (LAST LISTED OWNER) VENICE MAID COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION BY MERGER WITH NEW JERSEY P.O. BOX 1505 VINELAND NEW JERSEY 083601505 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record GARY M. NATH Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19961210 Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date May 30, 2000 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 22:58:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:58:12 EST Subject: Scrapple (1848) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/17/2002 3:19:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > There were plates of coarse dough-nuts, crullers, and waffles, all children > of the same family. Also, hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple; > cucumbers pickled yellow, and cabbage pickled purple; a saucer of large black > lumps, which were quinces, preserved hard; and another of small black ... Apparently the writer you quote used semicolons to segregate classes of foods, e.g. pickled cucumbers and pickled cabbage are lumped together. Therefore the writer appears to list "hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple" as similar foods. "Smeer-case" is a slight mangling of the German for cottage cheese. I cannot identify "hogs-head cheese"---conceivably it is "head cheese" which is a jellied loaf made from various leftover parts of pork including the snout, but I suspect it is some local term for something ordinary like Cheddar. Hence the writer appears to consider hogs-head cheese, cottage cheese, and something called "scrapple" to constitute a category of food and to be as closely related at two kinds of pickled vegetables. This leads to the question: is it safe to assume that this writer used "scrapple" in the modern sense of a loaf made from corn meal and ground meat, or does he use "scrapple" to mean some unidentified dairy product? - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:08:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:08:27 -0500 Subject: Refried Beans (1954) and Pinto Beans (1916) Message-ID: REFRIED BEANS--DARE has 1957. This will be utterly destroyed by the online LOS ANGELES TIMES, but from the NEW YORK TIMES, 30 January 1954, pg. 14: Another version--and the one we preferred--is the old-fashioned bean taco. This is made with frijoles refritos or Mexican refried beans, and a little grated cheese. PINTO BEANS--Probably the online LOS ANGELES TIMES will have a New Mexico article to beat this as well. In the meantime, DARE has 1916. I'm going to a fancy dinner at Koronet Pizza right now, but gimme a few hours. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:09:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:09:44 EST Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: In a message dated 11/16/2002 8:25:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, oliversplace at MSN.COM writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Don't feel bad. AOL News is currently reporting that "In Cypress to assemble a team of weapons inspectors, the mission's leader, Hans Blix, said.." Critics of Mr. Blix can now say he is lost in the woods, etc. and his supporters can say that he is standing as firm as a Cypress tree. This reminds me of an old paleolinguist chicken-and-egg question, which as far as I know is unsolved: was the element "copper" named after the island of Cyprus, where it has been mined since ancient times, or was the island named after the metal? - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:16:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:16:21 -0500 Subject: Scrapple (1852) Message-ID: For those of you who don't like the 1848 "scrapple," here's an 1852 "scrapple" from the North American Women's Letters and Diaries database. DARE has 1855. 1. Holley, Sallie. "Letter from Sallie Holley to Caroline F. Putnam, 1852" [Page 99 | Paragraph | Section | Document] the air two or three times; introduced to a tall, unshaven, uncombed unwashed man with terribly dirty clothes and boots thick with mud and manure; your things taken off, you are presently invited out into a dirty, dingy kitchen to sit down to highly-spiced sausages, or a dish here denominated `scrapple,' and hot, thick, heavy pancakes, picking out two or three flies from your drink whatever it may be. "And though you have been lecturing an hour and a half that day, besides riding through rain and mud several miles, you are expected to entertain the friends with how delighted you are Results Bibliography Holley, Sallie, 1818-1893, Letter from Sallie Holley to Caroline F. Putnam, 1852, in A Life for Liberty: Anti-Slavery and Other Letters of Sallie Holley. Chadwick, John White, ed.. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1899, pp. 292. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [1852] S215-D019 Holley:L215-19 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 03:40:12 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:40:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: <19f.bcd4de5.2b075e37@aol.com> Message-ID: The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 04:14:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:14:43 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky In-Reply-To: <3DD66A5F.6010701@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Marc Sacks wrote: #My wife is the only person I ever knew who pronounces donkey to rhyme #with monkey. She's from the Bronx, so maybe it's a New York City #phenomenon. However, I've known lots of New Yorkers but never heard that #pronunciation from any of them. Then again, the word donkey doesn't come #up in conversation all that often. I grew up NYC & environs, 1950s-60s, and I pronounce both words with [^]. -- Mark A. Mandel From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Nov 18 05:12:34 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:12:34 -0800 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: i'm with various other east coasters (larry horn, mark mandel, etc.) as a donkey-monkey speaker. once i left the nyc-philadelphia axis, i met endless numbers of people who found my donkey pronunciation risible - people from new england, the south, south midlands, and more. i've shifted to an [a] donkey, when i'm attending to what i say, to try to avoid sounding ridiculous, but i'm not particularly consistent, and the donkey-monkey version still sounds *right* to me. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 05:30:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:30:00 -0500 Subject: Shalom Aleichem & Pilawe,Yugurt,Churbah (1636) Message-ID: A VOYAGE INTO THE LEVANT by Henry Blount London: Printed by John Legal for Andrew Crooke 1636 (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE) Pg. 14: ...sherbet... Pg. 101: Their _Diet_ is very full, and grosse; they will refuse all dainties for a peece of fat _mutton_; that they seeth with _Rice_, which is the most generall food they use; they call that mixture _Pilawe_, over it they put _milke_ made thicke, and sower called _Yugurt_, with _Pease_, _Rice_, and _Mutton_ they make their _Porrage Churbah_: these are the three ordinary dishes of _Turky_... (OED has 1612 for "pilau." OED has 1625 for "yogurt," and this would be second. Churbah?--ed.) Pg. 107: ...bids _Salaum Aleck_... (OED has a ridiculous 1881 for "Shalom Aleichem"--ed.) Pg. 123: Now there remaines a word, or two of the _Zinganaes_; they are right such as our _Gypsies_... (OED has 1581 for "Zingana"--ed.) (O.T.: I checked APS online for "scientist." Every one of about twelve early hits wasn't a hit at all. What a waste of time...I'll beat DARE on "pinto bean" when I'm back at the NYPL. The books will probably be offsite, so give me another year--ed.) From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 09:57:00 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:57:00 -0000 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest > Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: > > 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his > quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, Anchuria". As it also appears in "Tom Swift And His Big Tunnel" by Victor Appleton (1916), Chapter III: "Is there anything wrong with South America--Peru? I know they have lots of revolutions in those countries, but I don't believe Peru is what they call a 'banana republic'; is it?", it looks to have been relatively well known even at this time. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Nov 18 09:36:07 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:36:07 -0500 Subject: Pepperpot (1791) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > See the latest DARE for "pepperpot" (1794). This is from the >American Periodical Series online. It is NOT "Philadelphia pepperpot." >(I doubt I'll have time for that tomorrow in Temple). The citation is >a mess to read, but it's what they have. Notice that "toad in a hole" >appears as "toad in hell." I was looking for examples of this and found DA has pepperpot from 1790 (DA) and 1698 (OED), for _Jamaica pepperpot_. I don't have the newest DARE yet. Are these different? Philadelphia pepperpot usually has tripe in it, I think. Regards, David Barnhart From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Nov 18 11:23:28 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 06:23:28 -0500 Subject: FW: Antedating of "Banana Republic" -- EOTY Message-ID: What follows, courtesy of Michael Q and Fred S, is truly amazing, in terms of the ability to find such info so quickly, and to disseminate it to the world. Hats off to both MQ and FS! I hereby cast my vote for this exchange as the Etymology of the Year. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Quinion Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Banana Republic" > The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest > Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: > > 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his > quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, Anchuria". As it also appears in "Tom Swift And His Big Tunnel" by Victor Appleton (1916), Chapter III: "Is there anything wrong with South America--Peru? I know they have lots of revolutions in those countries, but I don't believe Peru is what they call a 'banana republic'; is it?", it looks to have been relatively well known even at this time. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 11:50:30 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A subscriber has asked me about this rather dated interjection. The assumption I've seen made is that it refers to Sir Walter Scott, or to some archetypal Scotsman. The OED has 1885. I can antedate this using MoA, but the real interest for me is in the associations: "Great-Scott!" he gasped in his stupefaction, using the name of the then commander-in-chief for an oath, as officers sometimes did in those days. [The Galaxy; Volume 12, Issue 1; July 1871; p53] "Scott, Great!" a curious euphemistic oath, in which the name of a well-known general is substituted for the original word, probably merely because of its monosyllabic form. ("Great Scott! I'd rather give my name to a horticultural triumph like that there, than be Senator." Lippincott's Magazine, March 1871, p1. 289.) [Americanisms; the English of the New world; Maximilian Schele De Vere; 1872; p630.] So it might seem to be originally an American expression. Questions: Which well-known general could this be? And does this seem reasonable as the origin? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 11:50:30 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: FW: Antedating of "Banana Republic" -- EOTY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What follows, courtesy of Michael Q and Fred S, is truly amazing, > in terms of the ability to find such info so quickly, and to > disseminate it to the world. > > Hats off to both MQ and FS! > > I hereby cast my vote for this exchange as the Etymology of the Year. You're very kind. It looks easy, as so often, because it rests on large amounts of work by other people. The real credit should, at least in my case, go to the Project Gutenberg team, who have digitised so many texts, and also to dtSearch, which produced the excellent program I use to index and search this and a lot of other etexts. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 18 13:14:54 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:14:54 -0500 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: <3DD8D406.3361.ADB657@localhost> Message-ID: >Questions: Which well-known general could this be? Gen. Winfield Scott. >And does this seem reasonable as the origin? Reasonable, but I wouldn't believe it without better evidence. There are other people named "Scott". I would also consider possible an origin from German, e.g., from the conventional southern German greeting "Gruess Gott". In any case, I believe the "Scott" is functionally a euphemism for "God". I presume that the Great Scot variety of potato is more recent? -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 13:55:49 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:49 EST Subject: Great Scott! Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/02 6:51:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > "Great-Scott!" he gasped in his stupefaction, using the name of the > then commander-in-chief for an oath, as officers sometimes did in > those days. [The Galaxy; Volume 12, Issue 1; July 1871; p53] > > "Scott, Great!" a curious euphemistic oath, in which the name of a > well-known general is substituted for the original word, probably > merely because of its monosyllabic form. ("Great Scott! I'd rather > give my name to a horticultural triumph like that there, than be > Senator." Lippincott's Magazine, March 1871, p1. 289.) > [Americanisms; the English of the New world; Maximilian Schele De > Vere; 1872; p630.] > > So it might seem to be originally an American expression. Questions: > Which well-known general could this be? And does this seem reasonable > as the origin? Winfield Scott (1786-1866), who I believe had the title of "commander-in-chief" of the US Army at the beginning of the Civil War and for some years prior to that. While his fame was eclipsed by that of many Civil War generals, he was very famous during the middle of the 19th Century as one of the two generals who won the Mexican War (the other was Zachary Taylor, who used his fame to become President in 1849). Taylor was "Old Rough and Ready". Scott had the less enviable nickname of "Old Fuss and Feathers". Your first quote refers to the "then commander-in-chief." Is it possible to figure out the date in which the "officer" was swearing? If so, then would it match the dates in which Scott was Commander-in-Chief? - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Nov 18 14:48:58 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:48:58 -0500 Subject: kajigaedu-oh-itda / kajigaedutta Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/11/18/nkorea.nukes/index.html Though the ethnically homogeneous South and North Koreans share the same language, there are various differences in pronunciation across the Korean peninsula. The phrase used in the announcement is unclear. "Kajigaedu-oh-itda", which means 'entitled to have' sounds very similar to "kajigaedutta", which means to 'already possess.' Officials say they are also wary because it is not the way North Korea usually makes such important statements. /snip -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Clear writers assume, with a pessimism born of experience, that whatever isn't plainly stated the reader will invariably misconstrue. -- John R. Trimble From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Nov 18 15:46:22 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:46:22 -0800 Subject: Shalom Aleichem & Pilawe,Yugurt,Churbah (1636) In-Reply-To: <4732E06A.41C8330C.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A VOYAGE INTO THE LEVANT > by Henry Blount > London: Printed by John Legal for Andrew Crooke > 1636 > (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE) > > Pg. 107: ...bids _Salaum Aleck_... > (OED has a ridiculous 1881 for "Shalom Aleichem"--ed.) > Wouldn't this be evidence for the Arabic "salaam alaykum" rather than the Hebrew "shalom aleichem"? I don't know the context of the Blount quotation above but given the Levant in 1636, my guess would be that he is talking about Arabs, and probably Arabs speaking in the local dialect. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 15:59:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) Message-ID: Greeting from Temple University in Philadelphia. Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? Urban Archives has some pretty boring stuff about food (tons of useless pretzel articles, for example), but there are about 20 little envelopes for slang. Here's one article: NEW YORK HERALD-TRIBUNE 16 December 1951 _New Lexicon for War_ _Korea Adds Colorful Words_ _To Fighting Man's Vocabulary_ By Mac R. Johnson (...) No sweat: Retreaded version of "it's a cinch," or "it's a pipe," meaning not difficult; it can be done easily. Ichi-ban (japanese): Means No. 1, the best, superior. Idawa (Korean): Come here. Chop chop: food or any allusion to food or eating. Chogi (Korean): Human supply trains, native Koreans lugging food, amunition and other supplies on their backs up the hills to the front-line U. N. troops. Chigi (Korean): Singular, one native Korean hill porter. Tilt (American pinball word): SOmething went wrong. Swanning (British): Patrol in no-man's land; also can mean leaving position without authority to do something trivial such as taking a jeep ride instead of tending to business. Takusan (Japanese): Many; a lot. Sukoshi (Japanese): Few; little. Flame-out (jet-age word): Jet engine fails due to fuel starvation. Yoyo (from the jetmen): MiG fighters making repeated diving passes at a U. N. jet plane, up and down, up and down. Chopper: Helicopter. Hava no: Don't have any, such as "Hava no eggs for breakfast," or "Hava no soap." From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 16:30:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:30:41 -0000 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) In-Reply-To: <171E53F3.1297ED98.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? You find so many things, remembering them is a problem! The ADS-L archives don't seem to contain anything from the Civil War, though they do cite unsupported comments that the expression may be linked to General Wingfield Scott. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 16:42:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:42:01 -0500 Subject: "RSV" Message-ID: >From a meeting announcement at U of Penn: > Afterwards we will be taking him for dinner at [name of restaurant]. > Please RSV if at all possible, but in any event feel welcome to join > us. Apparently the writer of this announcement (not a native speaker of English, by the way, or French for that matter) interpreted "RSVP" as "Respond x x Possible", with "x x" ~= 'if'. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 17:01:10 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:01:10 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the conventions of the context. Whaddya think, guys? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 18 17:11:36 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:11:36 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Such collocations as "bad guys" and "a guy thing" would seem to contradict this reasoning, while such horrors as "The Man Show" ("The Guy Show"?) seem to support it. dInIs (who now lives in the gender-free guy area of MI, although only for direct (plural) address: Hey you guys! (mixed group, men only, women only) I saw two guys (this guy) down by the pond (men only) Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the conventions of the context. Whaddya think, guys? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 17:47:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:47:08 -0500 Subject: What's Cooking (1934?) Message-ID: I've got about 15 more slang folders to copy, then I have to go upstairs to Temple University archives to find a "hoagie." WHAT'S COOKING?--I've got to do this for that little Oxford book. From a clipping, 12 July 1942, NEW YORK TIMES: As for the use of the phrase, "What's cooking?"--Mr. (Gene--ed.) Krupa traced it back to 1934 and 1935, when the "first swing bands were touring the country on one-nighters and ballroom engagements." SHALOM ALEICHEM--Yes, the citation I found was the Arabic form of "Peace Be With You!" OED can look up EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE, analyze the context, but it in brackets, put it in the etymology, put it in a separate entry, or ignore it entirely. I don't get paid either way. GREAT SCOTT--A Civil War diary was recently issued, and it had it. Check the ADS-L archives for "deadline" or "dead line," which should be in the same post. O.T. HEY, YOU! GET OFF THAT COPIER!! From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 18 18:06:29 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:06:29 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense In-Reply-To: <46.31050822.2b066f6f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new > sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? I have not run across anything like this. -- Steve From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 18:43:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:43:17 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: <3DD8B96C.6792.45CA0D@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), > Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana > republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of > a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with > about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, > Anchuria". Good show, Michael! I wonder now whether O. Henry may have actually coined the term. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 18 18:35:29 2002 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:35:29 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: From: sagehen Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, > S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. > Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually > out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. > I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think > of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. Lolita may provide a similar example. I think someone (perhaps Nabokov himself) wrote that the novel ruined the name among English speakers--or something to that effect. It's curious that there's such a difference between the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Lolita Haze. d. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 18 18:58:09 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:58:09 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <00db01c28f32$548a9420$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: According to a name book I had, Ebeneezer was quite popular until A Christmas Carol. Ed --- davemarc wrote: > From: sagehen > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:04 PM > Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > > > > My father was born & christened Sherlock (after > his grandfather, > > S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan > Doyle created his character. > > Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since > rendered "Sherlock" virtually > > out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never > encountered another Sherlock. > > I suppose there are other examples of this sort of > thing, but I can't > think > > of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. > > Lolita may provide a similar example. I think > someone (perhaps Nabokov > himself) wrote that the novel ruined the name among > English speakers--or > something to that effect. It's curious that there's > such a difference > between the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Lolita > Haze. > > d. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Nov 18 19:07:26 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:07:26 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by too-close association with a single figure. The associational problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. Historically, the tendency has gone the other way, with parents or godparents seeking to evoke famous figures. Many common names can be traced back to some famous progenitor (or, in the case of John, progenitors). John Baker From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:29:59 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:29:59 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since I grew up in the era of Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (among others), I most certainly recall that the adults around me said "Adolf" much more frequently than "Joseph." For some reason, the latter was always "Joe." (Of course, last name only mentions were by far the most frequent.) dInIs > "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by >too-close association with a single figure. The associational >problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated >with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the >association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have >to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one >Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still >freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. > > Historically, the tendency has gone the other way, with >parents or godparents seeking to evoke famous figures. Many common >names can be traced back to some famous progenitor (or, in the case >of John, progenitors). > >John Baker -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:34:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:34:48 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new >> sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else >>noticed this? > >I have not run across anything like this. > I recall earlier versions of diskettes (back when I used diskettes) having the option of "Format Disk", when that entailed erasing everything currently on it. (I remember the first time being taken aback by this usage.). So if you say you want the disk (re)formatted and discover too late that you've wiped out everything there, that could certainly be disastrous. L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:36:48 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:36:48 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <00db01c28f32$548a9420$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Nov 18 20:09:04 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:09:04 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Since I grew up in the era of Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (among > others), I most certainly recall that the adults around me said > "Adolf" much more frequently than "Joseph." For some reason, the > latter was always "Joe." (Of course, last name only mentions were by > far the most frequent.) > > dInIs > > > "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by > >too-close association with a single figure. The associational > >problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated > >with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the > >association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have > >to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one > >Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still > >freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. The relative frequency of the name's appearance before the famous association certainly has something to do with it. Adolf, Aretha, Lolita, and Sherlock were all relatively rare (for Adolf this is true in the English-speaking world). Hence the negative (or positive in Aretha's case) association swamps the ordinary usage. In the case of Joseph, the name is so ubiquitous, that even someone as evil as Uncle Joe wouldn't ruin the name. According to the 1990 census, 0.006% of women in the US were named Aretha. It is 1260th in popularity, out of 4,275, right after Una and right before Pearline. Lolita ranks at #969, with 0.009%. The top ten female names account for 10.703% of the population. For males, Adolf and Sherlock don't make the list. (Adolfo is 567th out of 1219; the list only goes to the 90th percentile, so 10% of the population have names that are not listed.) Joseph is #9 with 1.404% of US males having that name. Joe is #51 at 0.321%. (The ranking is based on data as reported on the census forms; many of these "Joes" would have "Joseph" on their birth certificates.) The top ten male names account for 23.185% of the population. >From http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/ which gives the frequency of the appearance of names in the US (1990 Census). From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 21:03:08 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:03:08 -0000 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fred Shapiro wrote: > Good show, Michael! I wonder now whether O. Henry may have > actually coined the term. Taken together with the example you found from the NYT that mentions O Henry specifically, it seems likely, doesn't it? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 19 02:54:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:54:34 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Here in Athens [female] lifeguards at the cuty pool refer to each other as "guys" so it's gender-neutral here (since 1970 at least). _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 04:09:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:09:50 EST Subject: "Talk Trash" & "What's Shakin'" (1951) Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower had asked me to talk trash. From the PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 11 November 1951: _In Our Town_ By Earl Selby (...) _INSULTS:_ "Today's kids can really make a crack to smack a jack. Listen: "You don't tell somebody to drop dead twice anymore--you kill 'em with 'Take a train'. When the chit-chat's a bit on the dry wry tell them to 'jug it'--or leave holding your ears & muttering 'my nerves.' "The sarcastic kind you label a 'deep freeze': if he knows it all he's 'toastees in the ice cubes' (huh?_; tp shut up the pop-off cut him down by saying he's a 'jack=wise,' or maybe an 'odd job.' "'Didn't your mother have any children that lived?' is one squelch; another is remarking 'She (he) is a real doll, d-u-l-l. a crocodile.' For a really obnoxious pair you say 'they deserve each other'; the gal without sex appeal (nobody's ever come up with a substitute for that expression) is condescended to as 'a nice kid--but who wants to take out children?'" _THE TIDINGS OF THE DAY:_ "Remember way back then you used to say 'whatcha know, Joe?' 'Tain't like that no more, kid. Now you say 'Let's talk trash' or else ask 'What's shakin'?' The answer is: 'Nothin' but the bacon.' (...) _THE BIG DATE:_ "We used to ask what's cooking--today's slanger tells mama: 'Get off the stove, mother; I'm riding the range tonight' to show a big date's on." (..) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 04:30:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:30:38 EST Subject: Philly food file Message-ID: Clippings from the Temple University files. HOAGIE 23 September 1953, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _More about the hoagie._--(A.H.) Another legend of its origin is offered by reader Fred P. who writes: "About 1926 my mother had a grocery store in South Philly near a railroad and hoboes used to buy these large Italian sandwiches. Since all hoboes were known to be 'on the hoke' it decame known as a hoke sandwich; later as a hokie, and the name was finally changed to hoagie." This might be pure "hokum," or possibly appropriate. The slang "hoke" for a gentleman of the road comes down to us from hocus-pocus, via hokey-pokey, a term for a juggler--possibly from Ochus Bochus, an early magician. OIL DRILLERS' LINGO 16 May 1960, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Oil Drillers' Lingo_ New York, May 16--(UPI)--Judging by his lingo, the oild field driller has a big appetite. His semantic smorgasbord includes: appetizers (TNT); beans (valves); cabbage (bearings); biscuits (rocks); apple butter (engine belt dressing); donuts (round tubing); macaroni (big pipe); spaghetti (little pipe); and catsup (red acid). LET'S DO LUNCH 11 October 1955, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: The latest bop talk requires you to say, of you like a musician, "Man's he's real bad." Or, "he blows bad." This critical pronouncement is delivered in a monotone, with the "b-a-a-a-d" dragged out for emphasis. Means the exact opposite of what it says. Means he's the greatest. The musician calls his instrument an "ax." "They left their axes on the stand." Music hipsters don't like: "Boom-chuck." -------------------- IN THE white-collar canyons of Manhattan, the smart-talk boys are almost constantly "doing" some kind of "bit." If they want to propose going to lunch, they day: ":et's do the lunch bit." If they see a motion picture, they "do the movie bit." These people also are habitually "getting a fix" on things, phrase presumably borrowed from navigation. If one of these boys is in a muddle as to how he and the girl friend are going to spend the evening, he says: "Let's get a fix on this evening." The newest word for food is "scoff." Dark eyeglasses are "shadows." The word for taking a break from the job, or whatever, is "split." "Let's split for some scoff." A bed is now a "pad." "I was in the pad when the phone rang." From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 19 04:54:12 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:54:12 -0800 Subject: Philly food file In-Reply-To: <172.11d4f2d6.2b0b186e@aol.com> Message-ID: > Clippings from the Temple University files. > > HOAGIE > 23 September 1953, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: > _More about the hoagie._--(A.H.) Another legend of its > origin is offered > by reader Fred P. who writes: "About 1926 my mother had a > grocery store in > South Philly near a railroad and hoboes used to buy these > large Italian > sandwiches. Since all hoboes were known to be 'on the hoke' > it decame known > as a hoke sandwich; later as a hokie, and the name was > finally changed to > hoagie." This might be pure "hokum," or possibly > appropriate. The slang > "hoke" for a gentleman of the road comes down to us from > hocus-pocus, via > hokey-pokey, a term for a juggler--possibly from Ochus > Bochus, an early > magician. This article is cited in _American Speech_, "The Submarine Sandwich: Lexical Variations in a Cultural Context," Eames & Robboy, 1968. I've yet to find another reference to the term "on the hoke." I think the explanation is bogus. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 07:40:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:40:32 EST Subject: Bronx Cheer & Brooklyn Razzoo Message-ID: We'll know more about the "Brooklyn Razzoo" (and possibly the "Bronx Cheer") when the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE goes online soon. In the meantime, here are some clippings I found. (In a few hours, I'll go to the Bronx to find people guilty of parking tickets. They don't call it the Bronx Zoo for nothing.) 12 October 1938, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _BRONX DISOWNS CHEER_ _Borough President Says "We Don't Use It Up Here"_ New York, Oct. 12--(AP)--Take it from James J. Lyons, the Bronx lays no claim to that discordant noise popularly known as the Bronx cheer. Lyons, Bronx borough president, told the Chamber of Commerce "The Bronx cheer was brought here from outside somewhere and for some inexplicable reason was named for our borough." And Lyons' payoff: "But we don't use it up here." 12 July 1942, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Bronx Cheer_ _A Misnomer?_ NEW YORK, July 11 (A. P.).--That loud, American noise of disapproval is misnamed, in the opinion of Bronx Borough President James J. Lyons. "There is no such thing as a Bronx cheer," he said today. "The so-called Bronx cheer is a noise brought to the Bronx, especially to the Yankee Stadium, by vulgar people from outside the Bronx." 15 July 1940, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: "BRONX CHEER" is one of several names given to discordant noises made by sports fans or occupants of theater galleries. In baseball slang, its technique is similar to the "Brooklyn razzoo," requiring considerable facial distortion. Bronx borough officials disown the "Bronx cheer" saying it "was brought here from outside somewhere and for some inexplicable reason was named for our borough." Sports writers point out the Yankees baseball team plays in the Bronx and fans' noise of disapproval so named. Same applies to the "Brooklyn razzoo," they say, Brooklyn baseball fans being the most ardent in the country. Another name for such labioglossal sounds is "The Bird," inherited from 19th century theater. The gallery made a hissing sound in giving an actor "the bird," so-named from hissing sound of a goose; hence also, "the big bird." More familiar, perhaps, are "razz" and "razzberry," variants of word raspberry. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 08:21:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:21:11 EST Subject: New York words, speech (1929, 1938 articles) Message-ID: Two New York clippings. "Black Hand" should be easy to check in the NEW YORK HERALD INDEX and NEW YORK TIMES PERSONAL NAME INDEX. Any date for me to beat? 18 December 1929, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE: _New York Has Given_ _Many New Words to_ _American Language_ -------------------------------- _"Tuxedo," "Tombs," "Black-_ _hand," "Tabloid," "Shim-_ _my," "Jazz" Among Them_ (...) Once in a while some native New Yorker employes the expression "as crooked as Pearl Street." It is a colloguialism now almost defunct. Pearl Street, windingest in town, beings on Broadway, wanders toward the East River and comes back to terminate at Broadway. (...) The porterhouse steak... "Joy-ride"... It was in London that men who sold securities short were first called bears, but in Wall Street that the corresponding term of bulls was invented for speculators on the long side. (Not true--ed.) Black Friday... "Jazz" was originally the name of a dance, devised in New York about 1913 and the word soon came to characterize the sort of music theretofore called rag-time. (Not true--ed.) (...) Strangest of all New York's coined words and idioms, perhaps, is "black hand." James P. McCarthy, a reporter on the old "New York Herald," made it up and applied it to a Mafia ring which had committed a murder in Brooklyn. (Possibly true. Perhaps the HERALD TRIBUNE would know about the HERALD. Hey, the article has to get one right--ed.) 19 January 1938, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Wannamayksumpnuvvit_ _--A Fighting Word_ WHEN a New Yorker wants another drink, he tells the bartender, "Filladuppigen." If he thinks the man's pupils look too dilated, he replies, "Yoovadanuffbud." The patron had better not argue, or the bartender might ask, "Wannamayksumpnuvvit?" That formidable-looking word is defined in the WPA's "1938 Almanac for New Yorkers" as "an invitation to a brawl." Other definitions of New Yorkese, upheld by the almanac editors as being "at least as fruity and full-flavored as ever proper English could be," are: Braykidup: Policeman's suggestion to any group of loiterers. Wazzitoyuh?: Delicate rebuff to an excessively curious questioner. Takadiway: "Please remove it from sight immediately." Dombeeztoopid: Expressing specific disagreement, with undertones of disparagement. Ladderide: Warning not to pursue the subject further. Whyntchalookeryagoyn?: Rhetorical expression of relief used (by motorists especially) after a near-collision. Sowaddyasaybabe, or Hozzabotutbabe: Prelude to romance. (Isn't this list missing something? Did they "forget about it"?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 13:18:13 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:18:13 EST Subject: Mexican Shower Message-ID: In a message dated 11/17/02 2:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that > he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. A long-shot possibility: is "Mexican shower" derived from "Mexican divorce", as both are notoriously quick? - Jim Landau PS. Re ethnic slurs on Netherlanders, there is the following (from a folk (?) song that I learned as "Blow Ye Winds High Ho") "The cook was Dutch And behaved as such For all he fed the crew Was a couple of tons Of hot cross buns All mixed with sugar and glue" From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Nov 19 14:07:09 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:07:09 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: <003d01c28f77$001bd760$59b89b3f@db> Message-ID: But can the men in Athens refer to a couple of female lifeguards as "you guys" or "a couple of guys"? They can't over here in Muncie. It's not completely gender-neutral. Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, but of all-female groups only by women. To the extent that men can refer to an all-female group as "you guys" this feels more like a periphrastic 2p than an appositive. A clearly nominal use like "a bunch of guys" still means only an all-male group. But I think all this has already been said on this thread. Herb Stahlke -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of David Bergdahl Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux Here in Athens [female] lifeguards at the cuty pool refer to each other as "guys" so it's gender-neutral here (since 1970 at least). _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Nov 19 14:15:13 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:15:13 -0500 Subject: Problemsome Message-ID: Sen. Arlen Specter was heard in a clip on the news this morning saying the Homeland Security bill was so"problemsome" it made sausage look good by comparison, or words to that effect. This is the first time I've heard "problemsome" but I rather like it. "Problematic" has been so overused it has become tiresome. A. Murie From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Nov 19 15:12:25 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:12:25 -0500 Subject: New York words, speech (1929, 1938 articles) In-Reply-To: <136.1746e667.2b0b4e77@aol.com> Message-ID: At 03:21 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Strangest of all New York's coined words and idioms, perhaps, is "black >hand." James P. McCarthy, a reporter on the old "New York Herald," made it >up and applied it to a Mafia ring which had committed a murder in Brooklyn. >(Possibly true. Perhaps the HERALD TRIBUNE would know about the HERALD. >Hey, the article has to get one right--ed.) The Black Hand handle for a secret society of anarchist or killers goes back to the 1880's at least. There was one in Spain as early as 1883. The most famous "black hand" in my mind is the group to which Gavril Princip, the Serbian assassin of the Archduke in Sarajevo in 1914, belonged. The OED gives 1898 for the Spanish one. The Times has a hit on March 1, 1883, "The Society of the Black Hand and the Troubles in Andulsia." ..."He declared that a society called the 'black hand,' similar to the Internationale, existed." (Some say that it was a conspiracy and a rouse of the Spanish Police and that it never really existed - still La Mano Negra - what ever it was, inflicted terror for about 25 years.) Although McCarthy might have been the first to write it down concerning the "Italian" Black Hand that terrorized New York in the early 1900's, he by no means "made it up." Threats and letters were sent to people with a "black hand" as the signature. (sometimes allegedly in red ink, sometimes with a skull an crossbones) as early as 1904 in New York. It seems only logical that if that was their "signature" that would be what they were called. And its probable they got their idea from the earlier "group" in Spain. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:25:33 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:25:33 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #Such collocations as "bad guys" and "a guy thing" would seem to #contradict this reasoning, while such horrors as "The Man Show" ("The #Guy Show"?) seem to support it. "Bad guys" and "a guy thing" are in accordance with the emotional -- not gender -- neutrality of "guy". "Bad guys" applies to the villains of a piece, whether fictional ("Showdown at the O.K. Corral"), real (9/11), or uncertain (supply your own), and is generic at the level of "party" or "side". To me, "bad men" must apply to a group small enough and definite enough that all the members can be identified as men; it is almost exclusively a child phrase. ("Badmen", dubious plural of "badman", is a different question whose answer still isn't a counterexample.) "A guy thing", IMHO, means 'something that adult males do and females don't do', whether factually or stereotypically, such as hold spitting contests or compare the size of their motorcycles (larger = better) or cell phones (smaller = better). -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:29:56 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:29:56 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How #many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain #names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a #certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth considering, named John. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:47:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:32 -0500 Subject: Philly food file In-Reply-To: <000201c28f87$b49b51b0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #This article is cited in _American Speech_, "The Submarine Sandwich: Lexical #Variations in a Cultural Context," Eames & Robboy, 1968. I've yet to find #another reference to the term "on the hoke." I think the explanation is #bogus. Has anyone tried to link it to "hoggee", pron. with long o, 'canal boatman'? -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:51:13 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:51:13 -0500 Subject: Mexican Shower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # "The cook was Dutch # And behaved as such # For all he fed the crew # Was a couple of tons # Of hot cross buns # All mixed with sugar and glue" I know it as "A Capital Ship". Ah: The Digital Tradition lyric database at the Mudcat Cafe, http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=11 has it attributed to Charles Edward Carryl. The version there is the one I know, give or take a couple of typos (cheerily/cherrily) and variations in nonsense words. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 19 15:53:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:53:29 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: Note, however, that these names continue to be popular among the general population. Royal and papal names have their own considerations. The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at THEWORLD.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How #many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain #names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a #certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth considering, named John. -- Mark A. Mandel From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Nov 19 16:31:23 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:23 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:29 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone >say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir >apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth >considering, named John. No, none close enough, and it occurs so rarely there are only three direct descendants I can recall. The Plantagenet's give two. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster 3rd son of Edward III and father of Henry IV John, Duke of Bedford 3rd son of Henry IV (no issue). [Rumor has it Richard III had an illegitimate son named John]. and the Windsor's had one Prince John, 4th son of George V, uncle of Queen Elizabeth II (died at age 14). Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 17:01:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The line of succession given at > http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list > any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally > unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel > Chatto. Why is Arthur equally unlikely? Is it that having a King Arthur would contradict the notion that the original King Arthur will return to rule Britain some day? Apart from that angle, I would think Arthur would be a name with much more positive royal associations than John. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 19 17:24:47 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:24:47 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: King John II might plausibly hope to live down the failures of the first King John, but no king could live up to the mythical accomplishments of King Arthur. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The line of succession given at > http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list > any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally > unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel > Chatto. Why is Arthur equally unlikely? Is it that having a King Arthur would contradict the notion that the original King Arthur will return to rule Britain some day? Apart from that angle, I would think Arthur would be a name with much more positive royal associations than John. Fred Shapiro From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 19 18:15:32 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:15:32 -0500 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) In-Reply-To: <3DD915B1.22074.4A133C@localhost> Message-ID: > > Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? > >You find so many things, remembering them is a problem! The ADS-L >archives don't seem to contain anything from the Civil War, though >they do cite unsupported comments that the expression may be linked >to General Winfield Scott. On 10 Jan. 2001, Bapopik posted http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0101B&L=ads-l&P=R2482 -- showing "great Scott" from 1864, in "Eye of the Storm", a (presumed) Civil War diary published only recently. Some parts are available on the Web, and many early instances of popular slang are present ... perhaps too many .... I wonder how certain the provenance of these memoirs is. -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 18:20:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:20:32 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/02 10:52:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/ > history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in line > for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, > Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. You seem to have missed number 1 in the line of succession, one Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales. I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must use his first given name, although as far as I know it is customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward VIII, although he was generally known in private life as "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of Hanover became Queen Victoria. Then of course Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte became King Charles XIV John of Sweden, even though he did not have a Charles to his name. And there is the unforgettable Sophie Fredericke Auguste von Anhalt-Zebst. England almost had a historical King Arthur. On the death of Richard the Lion-Hearted, the throne should have gone to Arthur, son of Richard's next younger brother Geoffrey, but was taken instead by Richard's youngest brother John. As for the popularity of John among royals, there is the current King of Spain, Juan Carlos ("John Charles"). If you include the Papacy, there were 23 Popes named John (not counting the Antipope John XXIII) plus two John Paul's. Most popular name in any secular dynasty appears to be Louis, of whom the French had 18, not counting Louis Philippe. - Jim Landau - Jim Landau From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 19 18:28:06 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 19 18:44:46 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:44:46 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 01:20 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/19/02 10:52:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, >JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/ > > history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in >line > > for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, > > Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. > >You seem to have missed number 1 in the line of succession, one Charles >Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales. > >I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must use his first >given name, although as far as I know it is customary to do so, e.g. Edward >Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward >VIII, although he was generally known in private life as "David". On the >other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of Hanover became Queen Victoria. You forgot George VI, who had, somewhere in his name, Albert and was called Bertie. But 4-7 names each--is this ridiculous or what? From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 19 18:49:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:49:34 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: > I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must > use his first given name, although as far as I know it is > customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George > Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward > VIII, although he was generally known in private life as > "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of > Hanover became Queen Victoria. George VI, christened Albert Arthur Frederick George and known as "Bertie" in private life, selected George upon his coronation. Victoria requested that no future king ever use the name Albert out of respect for her dear departed husband. I believe the "rule" is that the monarch can select any one of his or her given names to rule under. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 19 19:06:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:06:32 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <000001c28ffc$6809abb0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: At 10:49 AM 11/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must > > use his first given name, although as far as I know it is > > customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George > > Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward > > VIII, although he was generally known in private life as > > "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of > > Hanover became Queen Victoria. > >George VI, christened Albert Arthur Frederick George and known as "Bertie" >in private life, selected George upon his coronation. Victoria requested >that no future king ever use the name Albert out of respect for her dear >departed husband. > >I believe the "rule" is that the monarch can select any one of his or her >given names to rule under. So now we just have Prince Albert in the can. . . . From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 19:19:24 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: <3DD8D406.3361.ADB657@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > A subscriber has asked me about this rather dated interjection. The > assumption I've seen made is that it refers to Sir Walter Scott, or > to some archetypal Scotsman. The OED has 1885. I can antedate this > using MoA, but the real interest for me is in the associations: The following citation from ProQuest Historical Newspapers seems to supply at least a little evidence in support of the Winfield Scott theory: 1861 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 4 These gathering hosts of loyal freemen, under the command of the great SCOTT. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Nov 19 21:06:52 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:06:52 -0000 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The following citation from ProQuest Historical Newspapers seems > to supply at least a little evidence in support of the Winfield > Scott theory: > > 1861 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 4 These gathering hosts of loyal > freemen, under the command of the great SCOTT. That's another interesting antedating. If one wanted to be picky about the association with General Scott, one would have to put in evidence another example of exactly the words "the great Scott" in "The Guardian Angel", by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr, in which it refers without doubt to Sir Walter Scott ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 23:06:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:06:53 -0500 Subject: Bronx Cheer & Brooklyn Razzoo In-Reply-To: <183.1219173d.2b0b44f0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:40 AM -0500 11/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > 15 July 1940, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: >... Sports writers point out the Yankees baseball team >plays in the Bronx and fans' noise of disapproval so named. Same applies to >the "Brooklyn razzoo," they say, Brooklyn baseball fans being the most ardent >in the country. Another name for such labioglossal sounds is "The Bird," >inherited from 19th century theater. The gallery made a hissing sound in >giving an actor "the bird," so-named from hissing sound of a goose; hence >also, "the big bird." More familiar, perhaps, are "razz" and "razzberry," >variants of word raspberry. Love that "labioglossal". larry From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Nov 19 23:28:20 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:28:20 -0800 Subject: Ghetto pour Message-ID: I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online Oxford. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 23:57:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:57:44 EST Subject: Neo-Preo; Holidazed; Pinto Beans (1912?) Message-ID: NEO PREO From the Columbus Circle architecture review in today's NEW YORK SUN, 19 November 2002, "Dropping Anchor" by James Gardner, pg. 11, col. 2: If I may re-use a term I coined a few years back, The Caroline is a prime example of "Neo-Preo" architecture, that is, a newly minted, postmodern simulcrum of that most sought-after commodity, the pre-war building. ("A few years back," but probably not in the new NEW YORK SUN...O.T.: I almost had a heart attack when I saw "Windy City" in today's SUN editorial. I told them about my work and asked THE SUN to help defend Charles A. Dana's reputation. No response. This is shaping up to rival the "Big Apple" NEW YORK TIMES disaster, where I ruined several years of my life sending wonderful stuff to Warren Hoge, William Safire (several times), Robert Lipsyte, Sam Roberts, Douglas Martin, Richard Shepard, editorial/opinion (several times)...--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MISC. HOLIDAZED--I'm seeing this word again this year. WELLESLEY FUDGE--I'll probably take a day trip to the Boston area this Thursday. Make any requests now. PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this 1912 book. CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business Library, but I know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on Saturday--but factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." Call # VPM p.v.32,no.28 VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) Author Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS SIBL VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE SIBL VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) AVAILABLE Location SIBL Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 23 cm. Series Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; no. 68. Note "August 30, 1912." Cover title. Includes bibliographical references. Subject Beans -- Southwest, New. Add'l name University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:01:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:01:51 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119132558.049d0850@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 1:28 PM -0500 11/19/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? >Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > Are you forgetting Dorothy Parker's eponymous parrot? OK, it wasn't her son, but it was her parrot. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:02:24 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:02:24 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:24 PM -0500 11/19/02, Baker, John wrote: > King John II might plausibly hope to live down the failures >of the first King John, As Pope John XXIII lived down the ignominy of John XXII. Over centuries had passed between the unpopular John XXII and the "Antipope" John XXIII before *our* John XXIII, Angelo Roncalli, was brave enough to rehabilitate the name in the late 1950's and early 1960's. larry > but no king could live up to the mythical accomplishments of King Arthur. > >John Baker > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:43:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:43:45 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119132558.049d0850@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? >Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same name--that's usually the way it works.) L From mkuha at BSU.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:57:41 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:57:41 -0500 Subject: artical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/16/02 4:02 PM, Jeff Oliver wrote: > (...) researchers who use google to track > usage or other aspects of English. If you can help... I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but I'll take this as an excuse to mention that the procedures section of an article (see reference below) in Language specifies "To find recent studies (...) targeted searches were done of the Web of Science and the World Wide Web (using the search engine Google)" (649). I found that interesting, since Language, the most prestigious journal in the field, is so relentlessly serious and substantial. Stromswold, Karin. 2001. "The heritability of language: a review and metaanalysis of twin, adoption, and linkage studies." Language 77, 4: 647-723. -Mai From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:13:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:13:21 EST Subject: "Nutty as a fruitcake" (1935 in VILLAGE VOICE) Message-ID: A "fruitcake" article is in this week's VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com, then hit Counter Culture). The article says that "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935. Now rush right to the RHHDAS H-O, go to "nutty" on page 698, and read this: 1912-1914 in E. O'[Neill _Lost Plays_ 171: We sure are as nutty as a fruitcake or we wouldn't be here. For the benefit of the VILLAGE VOICE: Eugene O'Neill was a playwright from Greenwich Village. The RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF SLANG H-O (1997) has been out for over five years now. Where did you get this mis-information? From Robert Hendrickson? John Mariani? DOES ANYONE FACT-CHECK ANYMORE?? If you ADS-Lers want to have real fun like I experience every day of my life, try writing a letter to the editor of the VILLAGE VOICE and get them to correct this. Get treated like dirt! It's fun!!!! (O.T.: Sorry for that "simulacrum" typo in my last post. It's one of my favorite "upscale" words.) Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema A Short History of Fruitcake November 20 - 26, 2002 Abbey of Gethsemani 800-549-0912, www.monks.org Claxton Bakery 800-841-4211, www.claxtonfruitcake.com Collin Street Bakery 800-292-7400, www.collinstreetbakery.com Holy Cross Abbey www.monasteryfruitcake.org Takashimaya 693 Fifth Avenue, 212-350-0100 lame the fruitcake plague on the cheap sugar that arrived in Europe from the colonies in the 16th century. Some goon discovered that fruit could be preserved by soaking it in successively greater concentrations of sugar, intensifying color and flavor. Not only could native plums and cherries be conserved, but heretofore unavailable fruits were soon being imported in candied form from other parts of the world. Having so much sugar-laced fruit engendered the need to dispose of it in some way—thus the fruitcake. By the early 19th century, the typical recipe was heavy as lead with citrus peel, pineapples, plums, dates, pears, and cherries. Whether or not anyone actually enjoyed eating it, fruitcake persisted, finding fertile soil in the New World, especially in places where fresh fruit was difficult to come by. Nuts were introduced into the formula, probably because America's foremost fruitcake makers—Collin Street Bakery in Corsicana, Texas, and Claxton Bakery of Claxton, Georgia—were located in rural Southern communities with a surplus of cheap nuts; indeed, the Corsicana cake includes pecans. The expression "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935. (...) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:21:06 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:21:06 EST Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: But..... As I probably said last time... some of us (males) CAN use "guys" to address an all female group. I did it today (naturally) and no one even bothered to comment. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:11:05 AM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can > be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, > but of all-female groups only by women. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:24:27 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:24:27 EST Subject: Ghetto pour Message-ID: Isn't this just the general "ghetto" adjective? Meaning something like "silly, ridiculous, convoluted, rigged, etc." As in "Did you see that ghetto ride he was driving?" or "You should see my ghetto-ass phonology homework." This is common, no? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 5:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two > referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. > One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it > overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. > > I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online > Oxford. > -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 02:39:12 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:39:12 -0800 Subject: Ghetto pour In-Reply-To: <119.1af634c3.2b0c4c5b@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure how exactly to define it. It seems to mean the sort of pour you would get in a ghetto bar where people expect to get a full glass when they order, so it has a meaning of enhanced value as opposed to "ghetto ride." I don't find the meaning in the OED or AHD4, though. Are there any good online slang dictionaries to check this sort of thing out? Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham Sent: Tuesday, 19 November, 2002 18:24 Isn't this just the general "ghetto" adjective? Meaning something like "silly, ridiculous, convoluted, rigged, etc." As in "Did you see that ghetto ride he was driving?" or "You should see my ghetto-ass phonology homework." This is common, no? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 5:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two > referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. > One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it > overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. > > I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online > Oxford. > From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Nov 20 03:14:20 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:14:20 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, "See those guys?". Herbb -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux But..... As I probably said last time... some of us (males) CAN use "guys" to address an all female group. I did it today (naturally) and no one even bothered to comment. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:11:05 AM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can > be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, > but of all-female groups only by women. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 06:14:11 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 01:14:11 EST Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Ah... but I can. I can stand, with a female or a group of females, point to a different group of females, and say "look at those guys". I do it all the time. What I'm not sure about, and what I'll test for weirdness as soon as I can, is whether or not I can stand with a male, or group of males, point to a group of females, and say "look at those guys". What I couldn't do.... and what I'm pretty sure sitcom writers know we can't do (since they seem to exploit it for fun a lot), is stand with a group I have NO connection to, like logicians, point to another group of logicians and say "look at those guys". At least, I can't do it comfortably. So perhaps I can use "guys" with a group of females to a different group of females when I'm actually thinking "look at those fellow students" or something. But it still gets said. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 9:18:50 PM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > "See those guys?". -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Nov 20 09:05:00 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:05:00 -0700 Subject: Pinto beans Message-ID: Barry, If you can't find the cite in the NYPL, I can try to find it here in the University of Arizona library. They are likely to have it, since it was published here. Rudy ------------------------------ PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this 1912 book. CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business Library, but I know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on Saturday--but factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." Call # VPM p.v.32,no.28 VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) Author Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS SIBL VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE SIBL VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) AVAILABLE Location SIBL Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 23 cm. Series Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; no. 68. Note "August 30, 1912." Cover title. Includes bibliographical references. Subject Beans -- Southwest, New. Add'l name University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. ------------------------------ From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Nov 20 11:45:23 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:45:23 -0000 Subject: Problemsome Message-ID: A. Murie wrote: > Sen. Arlen Specter was heard in a clip on the news this morning > saying the Homeland Security bill was so "problemsome" it made > sausage look good by comparison, or words to that effect. This is > the first time I've heard "problemsome" but I rather like it. > "Problematic" has been so overused it has become tiresome If it was Sen. Specter it would not be surprising. Of the 17 examples I've turned up from newspapers going back to 1995, he is the direct quoted source of 11. It would be interesting to know whether he can be claimed to have coined it, or whether it is a well-known regionalism in the US. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 11:48:52 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:48:52 EST Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) Message-ID: Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving food story about "turducken." It's behind the ADS-L curve, of course, and there's not even the slightest mention of "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." However, there is one nice quotation in the story. A Southern man said that "turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make you go hime and slap your mama." Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) By AMANDA HESSER NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. He called his masterpiece turducken. In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. "I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." "When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were tantalizing. A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. (...) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 13:35:14 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:14 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:14 PM -0500 11/19/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is >a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group >of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, >"See those guys?". > While this distinction is a real one for many speakers (especially us older ones), the non-sex-specific use is gaining in referential as well as vocative uses, as I've discovered whenever I poll my classes on this. (See also Clancy's paper in AS a few issues ago-- Clancy, Steven J. (1999) The ascent of guy. American Speech 74: 282-97.) Context matters, too. I have a number of cites from the (National Champion) UConn women's basketball coach Geno Auriemma in which he referes to his players as "(the) guys", or to a specific player as "my go-to guy". ("Woman" doesn't seem to work here, and "man" is too sex-specific.) But I'm pretty sure "man-to-man" defense is still used, or "man" defense, where no specific reference is intended. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 13:44:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:44:30 -0500 Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) In-Reply-To: <165.16dcd3c5.2b0cd0a4@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:48 AM -0500 11/20/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving >food story about "turducken." It's behind the ADS-L curve, of course, and >there's not even the slightest mention of "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." >However, there is one nice quotation in the story. A Southern man said that >"turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make you go hime and slap your >mama." The only surprise is that Hesser's article doesn't mention John Madden by name, the man who is probably most responsible for the expansion of the lexical item to those of us outside the relevant dialect area when he discusses the turducken during the annual Thansgiving game in Detroit or Dallas on (now) Fox. larry > > >Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) > >By AMANDA HESSER > >NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop >in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an >enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned >turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. >He called his masterpiece turducken. > >In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become >something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. >There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made >it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping >them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production >leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. > >"I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years >back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in >Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." > >"When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken >that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." > >But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling >oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a >chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed >straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were >tantalizing. > >A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine >layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. (...) From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Wed Nov 20 14:39:31 2002 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:39:31 -0500 Subject: Turducken Message-ID: My wife passed this on to me in the spirit of the season, unaware (I believe) of our recent discussions on the turducken, the churkendoose, and similar polyavians. -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:04 -0500 >>From today's NY Times: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ November 20, 2002 Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) By AMANDA HESSER ONCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. He called his masterpiece turducken. In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. "I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." "When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were tantalizing. A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. When it's assembled, it looks like a turkey and it roasts like a turkey, but when you go to carve it, you can slice through it like a loaf of bread. In each slice you get a little bit of everything: white meat from the breast, dark meat from the legs, duck, carrots, bits of sausage, bread, herbs, juices and chicken, too. I called Paul Prudhomme, the Louisiana chef who has long proclaimed himself the inventor of the turducken. He insisted that to truly understand turducken, you need to bone all of the birds and prepare three stuffings, one for each layer of meat, and cook the whole for 12 hours. (And yet, purist though he is, Mr. Prudhomme would not reveal the name of the lodge in Wyoming where he says he came up with the dish, when exactly he created it, or even his age.) Leaving aside the mystery of its birth, perhaps the more interesting question is why turducken hasn't caught on more north of the Mason-Dixon line, especially at Thanksgiving, when even the most rigid cooks toss aside restraint. There are a few diehard fans, like John Madden, the colorful N.F.L. football analyst, who usually buys three to last him and his broadcast crew through the Thanksgiving Day game. "The first one I ever had I was doing a game in New Orleans," Mr. Madden said. "The P.R. guy for the Saints brought me one. And he brought it to the booth. It smelled and looked so good. I didn't have any plates or silverware or anything, and I just started eating it with my hands." Mr. Madden gets his turduckens from the Gourmet Butcher Block in New Orleans. Between each layer of bird is a different dressing. "And when you get the whole combination the oyster dressing, the spicy dressing and the rest it's pretty doggone good," he said. I thought about ordering a turducken, but had heard the mail-order ones were something like mail-order fruitcakes inconsistent at best. Or I could make one and see for myself what Mr. Madden was talking about. At Hebert's (pronounced ay-BEARS), which has locations in Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma, the butchers can bone a turkey in two and a half minutes and a chicken in a minute and five seconds. Still, Mr. Prudhomme's words notwithstanding, I am not a masochist. I have boned birds before. It's about as much fun as stripping paint. I called Staubitz, a butcher shop that's been in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn, since 1917. "I'd like to know if you can bone a turkey, duck and chicken for me," I said. "Say that again, nice and easy," John McFadden, the owner, said. So I did. "I know we're a butcher but that's artwork." I pressed my case. I offered to pay extra. "Nope," Mr. McFadden said. "Can't do it. They do it in Louisiana. They don't do it here in New York." I called another butcher, who said you need special equipment to bone poultry. A sharp knife? Another said he wouldn't do it because it was "a royal pain in the neck." Several more calls, though, yielded a handful of butchers who were happy to do the work (mostly for a price, about $10 extra), and I ordered the birds a 3-pound chicken, 4- to 5-pound duck and 10- to 12-pound turkey. These proportions would allow each bird to fit snugly into the next without over-stretching the turkey. A few days later at Lobel's Prime Meats, on Madison Avenue in Manhattan, Stanley Lobel began slicing into a duck, carefully removing the backbone, and then shaving the meat from the rib cage. It was beautiful to watch as the bones emerged and all that was left was a floppy duck "suit." Mr. Lobel has been a butcher for 55 years. It took him 15 minutes to bone the duck. Get a butcher to bone the birds. Mr. Lobel, who has made turducken, and even a capon in a capon, suggested cutting the duck and chicken into four pieces, so you can spread them out over the turkey, allowing the meat to be dispersed more evenly. He kept the wings of the turkey intact, and butterflied the drumsticks in the duck and chicken. Recipes other than Mr. Prudhomme's for what follows are scarce. But it is not difficult to find in the annals of culinary history examples of birds stuffed into birds. There is a reference in the diaries of John B. Grimball from 1832 for a Charleston preserve of fowl. It consisted of a dove stuffed into a quail, a quail into a guinea hen, a hen into a duck, a duck into a capon, a capon into a goose, and the goose into a peacock or a turkey. The whole thing was then roasted and cut into "transverse sections." It makes turducken seem like the lazy way out. Barbara Wheaton, a food historian, said that in the 14th century, peacocks were boned and roasted and re-stuffed into their feathered skin. In his Encyclopedia of Practical Gastronomy, published at the turn of the last century, Henri Babinski, who used the pseudonym Ali-Bab, gives instructions for stuffing boned ortolans into truffles. "In the Republic of Georgia," Darra Goldstein, a professor of Russian at Williams College and the editor of Gastronomica, a journal of food and culture, wrote in "The Georgian Feast" (University of California Press), "there's a very old feast dish that calls for a huge ox roasted on a spit, stuffed successively with a calf, a lamb, a turkey, a goose, a duck, and finally a young chicken, and seasoned throughout with spices. The art lay in ensuring that each type of meat was perfectly roasted." Mr. Edge said, "If this was going on in Charleston in the 19th century, it is likely that some other enterprising cooks in places around the South were preparing this dish previous to Paul Prudhomme's so-called invention of the turducken." "It strikes me as a dish invented by men in a hunt camp," he added, "men who have a snootful, who say, `What would happen if we took this bird and put it in this bird?' " But then again, the Cajuns like to make chaudin, the stomach of a pig stuffed with sausage and peppers, stuffed calves tongue and stuffed pork chops. "Witness the Hebert stuffed fowl list," Calvin Trillin, the New Yorker writer, who has a turducken in his freezer, wrote via e-mail, "and the fact that Cajuns get needles from veterinarians to inject the secret spices into turkeys that are about to be deep fried." Nevertheless, the codified definition of a turducken, and the name itself, is most likely 20th century in origin. But with no details available, its creator remains elusive. "Of course, now everyone's on the bandwagon," said Conrad Comeaux, a tax assessor and home cook in Lafayette, La. Mr. Comeaux once smoked turducken for an hour or so on the grill before roasting it. It turned out well. "Good enough to make you go home and slap your mama," Mr. Comeaux added, using a local expression. Although smoking turducken on my deck in Brooklyn was unlikely to happen, I would roast it in my oven. Turducken, it turns out, is not unlike preparing a turkey with stuffing, and not unlike cooking a rolled and tied butterflied leg of lamb. So that is just how I approached preparing it. I wanted the flavors of the meats to be clear and distinguished, so I developed a stuffing that would complement them, rather than three stuffings muddling the mass. You want the stuffing to be full flavored and sturdy; it should fill the dips and cavities where the bones once were, without making the bird bulky. And if you fill the turkey too full, it will split open when cooking. I sauted cubed pancetta and sausage. With the duck and chicken giblets, I cooked onion, celery, carrot, garlic and aniseed, deglazed the pan with brandy and added tarragon and thyme. Then I folded this together with cubes of dry country bread. Assembling a turducken is simple. You lay the turkey skin side down (if your butcher hasn't butterflied the bird, slice through the skin where the backbone was and open up the bird so it lays flat), season it with salt and pepper and spread it with some of the stuffing. Make sure to tuck some stuffing into the drumsticks. Then lay the duck in the same manner on top of the turkey and repeat. The same goes for the chicken. Then you have a choice: you can sew up the bird using a carpet or upholstery needle and butchers' twine, or thread through each side of the bird with thin skewers and then lace the skewers with twine. I recommend sewing, and enlisting someone to help. Begin at the tail end, folding up the tail skin and pulling the sides of the bird, close to the wings, back together. Stitch the bird from side to side about an inch from each edge, pulling to tighten. Continue sewing up to the neck end, then tie off the string. Flip the bird. You could roast the turducken as is, but its amoebic shape might frighten your guests. I recommend trussing the turducken, as you would a chicken, which will help outline the drumsticks and reform the birds into one plump turducken. Then it's smooth sailing. You put it in a roasting pan, cover it with foil and bake it at 250 degrees. Turducken needs to be roasted at a low temperature so the outer layer of turkey doesn't dry out before the chicken in the middle is cooked. The best method I found was to cook it until cooking juices formed in the pan, then baste it every half hour. You will need a cooking thermometer, because that is the only way to know what's going on inside the turducken. When it reaches 130 degrees, you remove the foil and increase the oven heat. The outside will get brown, and basting will allow the mix of juices to moisten the entire turducken. When the turducken is done, you set it on the platter, collect the cooking juices which are rich and concentrated, like a demiglace in a gravy boat and march both to the table. Give someone who's never encountered a turducken the honor of taking a long thin knife and slicing. "It's about as formidable as a meatloaf," Mr. Trillin said. "It makes everyone into a grand holiday carver. It gives them tremendous confidence. You just slice it." Mr. Edge said, "I wonder how far away we are from turducken being available in Dubuque?" I think you will agree, after you taste it, that we are getting closer and closer. Copyright The New York Times Company From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:01:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:01:30 -0500 Subject: Turducken In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 AM -0500 11/20/02, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >My wife passed this on to me in the spirit of the season, unaware (I >believe) of our recent discussions on the turducken, the churkendoose, >and similar polyavians. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:04 -0500 > > >From today's NY Times: > Oops. Cancel my last message. Hesser did mention Madden later in the article. Serves me right for not tracking it down. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:08:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:08:12 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Kleinedler reminds me that it might be relevant to include this cite from actress Joan Allen, via Clancy and our 2000 LSA paper on he-man language, in which we refer to "...the creeping sex-neutrality of gyu(s) in vocative contexts (hey, guys!) and increasingly in referential contexts (one of the guys). This development-radiating outward from the now well-established you guys as a colloquial sex-neutral second person plural pronoun competing with you all, y'all, and youse to the increasingly attested guys as an informal substitute for people or folks (in both male and female speech) to its still somewhat marginal use as a trendy sex-neutral singular as in (6) (6) Steppenwolf was four people and I'm just one guy. -actress Joan Allen hosting Saturday Night Live, 11/14/98, cited in Clancy (1999:287) ..." The motivation here appears to be that "guy" is more informal than the only obvious alternative, "person" or "individual". ("Woman" or "girl" are out here, at least because it implies a contrast with a set of four women, which doesn't accurately characterize the Steppenwolf troupe.) Larry From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 20 15:30:29 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:30:29 -0800 Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Probably after Madden, but Ellen Degeneris had the turducken as a running gag on one of her second show's episodes. That was my first introduction to it. Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > At 6:48 AM -0500 11/20/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW > YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving > >food story about "turducken." It's behind the > ADS-L curve, of course, and > >there's not even the slightest mention of > "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." > >However, there is one nice quotation in the story. > A Southern man said that > >"turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make > you go hime and slap your > >mama." > > The only surprise is that Hesser's article doesn't > mention John > Madden by name, the man who is probably most > responsible for the > expansion of the lexical item to those of us outside > the relevant > dialect area when he discusses the turducken during > the annual > Thansgiving game in Detroit or Dallas on (now) Fox. > > larry > > > > > > >Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) > > > >By AMANDA HESSER > > > >NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, > possibly at a butcher shop > >in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in > South Carolina, an > >enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, > a boned duck and a boned > >turkey, stuff them one inside the other like > Russian dolls, and roast them. > >He called his masterpiece turducken. > > > >In the years that followed its mysterious birth, > turducken has become > >something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast > with a beguiling allure. > >There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's > Specialty Meats, who have made > >it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens > each week, and shipping > >them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving > time, Hebert's production > >leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. > > > >"I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came > to the fore a few years > >back," said John T. Edge, the director of the > Southern Foodways Alliance in > >Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has > gone mainstream." > > > >"When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge > added, "he had a turducken > >that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his > freezer." > > > >But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an > entire turkey in boiling > >oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a > duck stuffed with a > >chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it > prepared. It seemed > >straightforward from a cooking point of view, and > the results were > >tantalizing. > > > >A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a > free-form poultry terrine > >layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with > duck fat. (...) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:54:51 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:54:51 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son > "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > > > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while > "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) > > L > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 20 16:00:51 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Pinto beans Message-ID: Hate to tell you this, Barry, but NYU will be going to off-site storage for little used books, as soon as we can find a place that will accept them. Evidently we thought we could build the facility on Staten Island, but the neighbors raised up, clamoring "the garbage dump is bad enough, we will not tolerate books." Even Staten Island folk have their pride, it seems. Books will be fetched on 24 hour notice, according to the plan. But we will see how the plan works out, in practice. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this > 1912 book. > CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business > Library, but I > know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on > Saturday--but > factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." > > > Call # > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPM+p.v.32%2Cno.28/cvpm+p+v+32+no+28/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">VPM p.v.32,no.28 > > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPG+(Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station.+Bull.+68.)/cvpg+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+bull+68/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) > Author > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aFreeman%2C+George+Fouche%2C+1876-1930./afreeman+george+fouche+1876-1930/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. > Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. > Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] > LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS > SIBL > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPM+p.v.+32+no.+28/cvpm+p+v+32+no+28/-5,-1,,E/browse">VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE > SIBL > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPG+(Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station.+Bull.+68.)/cvpg+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+bull+68/-5,-1,,E/browse">VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) > AVAILABLE > Location SIBL > Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs > Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) > ; 23 cm. > Series > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tBulletin+(University+of+Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station)+%3B+no.+68./tbulletin+university+of+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+no+++68/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; > no. 68. > Note "August 30, 1912." > Cover title. > Includes bibliographical references. > Subject http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dBeans+-- > +Southwest%2C+New./dbeans+southwest+new/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Beans -- > Southwest, New. > Add'l name > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aUniversity+of+Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station./auniversity+of+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station/-5,-1,0,B/browse">University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. > > ------------------------------ > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 16:12:19 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:12:19 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn quoting from 2000 LSA paper on he-man language: >"...the creeping sex-neutrality of gyu(s) in vocative contexts (hey, >guys!) and increasingly in referential contexts (one of the guys). >This development-radiating outward from the now well-established you >guys as a colloquial sex-neutral second person plural pronoun >competing with you all, y'all, and youse to the increasingly attested >guys as an informal substitute for people or folks (in both male and >female speech) to its still somewhat marginal use as a trendy >sex-neutral singular .........." ~~~~~~~~ While in a satirical piece I wrote for a little mag in 1998 argued for a return to epicenity of "Man, men, he, him and his" on the grounds that the real language problem was just that XY type homo sapiens didn't have a set of nouns and pronouns that belonged only to them, I can now see another way out of the vexing problem of providing the language with a good neutral set: "A guy" and "a guy's" can be substituted for "he or she", "him or her"; "his or her", "his or hers." Of course, we're already doing this quite a lot, we just need to stop mumbling, blushing & giving little knowing nods when doing it in formal discourse! A. Murie From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Nov 20 16:19:08 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5cce095cb102.5cb1025cce09@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my personal files). dInIs This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son > "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > > > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while > "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) > > L > -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 17:04:41 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:41 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >personal files). > >dInIs ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is a dentist named Yiping Fang who practices in Ohio. AM From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 20 17:01:21 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:01:21 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5cce095cb102.5cb1025cce09@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: > This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the > Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become > ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of > the name, we should be we should be discussing people who > became baseball players because they were named Poppup or > linguists because they were named Particple. A few more > positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be > elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it > from an Hypothesis to a Theory. The head of the Religion Department at my undergraduate school was Professor Pope. From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:10:17 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:10:17 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to become a minister) --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:04 PM -0500 sagehen wrote: >> If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >> for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >> Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >> Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >> personal files). >> >> dInIs > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > There is a dentist named Yiping Fang who practices in Ohio. > AM _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:20:06 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:20:06 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <153577.1037794217@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when she was a kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl wrote: > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to > become a minister) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:30:42 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:30:42 -0500 Subject: Problemsome In-Reply-To: <3DDB75D3.14647.93E203@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > If it was Sen. Specter it would not be surprising. Of the 17 > examples I've turned up from newspapers going back to 1995, he is > the direct quoted source of 11. It would be interesting to know > whether he can be claimed to have coined it, or whether it is a > well-known regionalism in the US. In some quick checking the earliest I come up with is in a Massachusetts legal case: 1979 _North Eastern Reporter, 2d Series_ 396: 157 Bane perceives it as a "problemsome" but "common, everyday occurrence" requiring a pre-seizure notice and hearing. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Nov 20 17:34:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:34:19 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: IIRC, the Shandy theory (which was not Tristram's but his Father's) did hold that certain names (for example, "Tristram") were ill-fated, while other ("Trismegistus," "Martin Luther") confer advantages on their holders. I'm not familiar with the Lack refinements to the theory. The theory does not hold that names direct one's fate in a superficial way; I'm not fated to work as a baker, in spite of my surname. I had a college professor who had a related theory, that women choose their husbands on the basis of what their married name would be. I suppose that theory must be weakened with the contemporary practice of wives keeping their maiden names. There must be something to the Shandy theory, or actors wouldn't so routinely change their names for commercial reasons. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: George Thompson [mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:32:16 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:19 AM 11/20/2002 -0500, you wrote: >If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >personal files). > >dInIs Shades of the "Seinfeld" episode where Kramer borrows license plates reading "As(s)man" for his own purposes. . . . >This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the >Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened >because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should >be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because >they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named >Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and >it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it >from an Hypothesis to a Theory. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm >Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >> >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son >> "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? >> > >> Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while >> "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the >> taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is >> still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same >> name--that's usually the way it works.) >> >> L > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 >e-mail: preston at msu.edu >phone: (517) 353-9290 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:39:00 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:39:00 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <250243.1037784006@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books e.g., Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural history of the Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of fish--ed.] We called such phenomena "appronyms." allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when she was a > kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. > > Peter Mc. > > --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl > wrote: > > > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to > > become a minister) > > > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 18:13:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:13:55 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/2002 7:43:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > while "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) Yes, "Judas" is the Greek version of "Judah", e.g. Judah the Maccabee is frequently referred to as "Judas Maccabeus". "Iscariot" is more problematic. It might be "man of Kariot", which is a town mentioned in Joshua 15:25. Or it might be an erroneous transcription of "Judas Sicariot" = "Judah Ha-Sicarot" = "Judah the Terrorist". The Sicarii were an anti-Roman terrorist group within the Zealot party. If Judas were indeed a Sicari, that offers some interesting possibilities into his motives. It also leads one to wonder why the Apostles should include such a loose catapult. The "Sicariot" emendation was in a book by Isaac Asimov. I have no idea whether the idea was original with Asimov. - Jim Landau From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Nov 20 18:39:22 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:39:22 -0000 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: {HYPERLINK "/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211c&L=ads-l&D=1&P=7269"}A. Maberry wrote: > Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books > e.g., Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural > history of the Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of > fish--ed.] We called such phenomena "appronyms." New Scientist magazine in the UK ran a series of articles in its Feedback column on this phenomenom, ending about five years ago. It called it "nominative determinism". One column (22 June 1996) says: "Chris Aspen takes issue with our name for the phenomenon. We have noted already (20 April) that Carl Jung approvingly followed the psychologist Wilhelm Stekel in calling it 'the compulsion of the name'. But Aspen insists that the American writer Franklin P. Adams got it right when he coined the word 'aptronym'". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Nov 19 22:05:49 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: I think this is a good example of being "inclusive" as opposed to "exclusionary." More about this at the Atlanta ADS. Tom Paikeday ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux > Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one > might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of > trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to > men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached > no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I > would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. > > It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of > "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever > defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, > etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context > where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such > characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. > "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the > conventions of the context. > > Whaddya think, guys? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 21:01:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:01:16 -0500 Subject: Scampi (1883) Message-ID: SCAMPI THE FISHERIES OF THE ADRIATIC AND THE FISH THEREOF. A REPORT OF THE AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN SEA-FISHERIES, WITH A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE MARINE FAUNA OF THE ADRIATIC GULF by G. L. Faber London: Bernard Quaritch 1883 This book arrived from "off-site." I had posted "scampo" from 1890. Pg. 141: Each market has its _specialite_ at certain seasons; for instance, Fiume, the _Scampi_ (Norway Lobster); Zara, a great variety of Crustaceans, among which is the Rock Lobster (_Palinurus vulgaris_); Sebenico, the _Dentale della corona_ (_Dentex gibbosus_), whilst at Spalato the Pelamid and the Lichia (_Lizza_) are very abundant. Trieste being the best market, most of the _specialites_ of other markets are sent there for sale, for instance, the _Scampo_ of Fiume, the Tunny of Croatia, and the Rock Lobster from Dalmatia, &c. As a rule, the most valued of the Adriatic fishes are the Basse (_Branzin_), the Dentex (_Dentale_), the Surmullets (_Barbone_ and _Triglia_), the Red, or SPanish Sea-bream (_Ribone_), the Gilt-head (_Orada_); these are always more or less common, especially in autumn and spring. The summer fisheries (Pg. 142) yield the Mackerel (_Scombro_) and its relatives the Tunny (_Ton_), the Pelamid (_Palamida_), and the plain Bonito (_Tombarello_), the latter being only occasionally met with. To these must be added the _Lizza_ (_Lichia amia_). Pg. 274: Scampa salvatica...Galathea strigosa. Scamparello, Scampetto...Galathea scamparella. Scampo morte...Galathea scamparella. Scampa fals a man lunghe...Galathea rugosa. Scampo...Nephrops norvegicus. From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 22:51:22 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:51:22 EST Subject: undo confusion Message-ID: This memo came through our campus email: <> I found only 50 examples of this usage on Google. Guess it's still a rarity. - Allan Metcalf From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 21 01:04:53 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:04:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jesus H. Christ" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1892 as its first citation for "Jesus H. Christ." The following is from Mark Twain's Notebooks and Journals 3: 305 (notebook for Aug. 1887 - July 1888): "In correcting the pamphlet-proof of one of [Rev. Alex] Campbell's great sermons, Wales [McCormick] changed 'Great God!' to 'Great Scott,' and changed Father, Son & Holy Ghost to Father, Son, & Caesar's Ghost. In overrunning, he reduced it to Father, Son & Co., to keep _from_ overrunning. And Jesus _H._ Christ." Twain and McCormick had been fellow apprentices on the _Missouri Courier_, Hannibal, where Campbell preached in Nov. 1852. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Nov 21 03:41:47 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:47 -0600 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just "youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Stahlke" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux > My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is > a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group > of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > "See those guys?". > > Herbb > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 21 04:33:23 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:33:23 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: <007d01c2910f$eb496d30$6f01a8c0@HP> Message-ID: But 'youse' alone is common on the East Coast; my in-laws in Baltimore used it all the time. At 09:41 PM 11/20/2002 -0600, you wrote: >And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral >pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that >second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label >it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's >last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just >"youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Herbert Stahlke" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:14 PM >Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux > > > > My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, >is > > a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group > > of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > > "See those guys?". > > > > Herbb > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 21 13:38:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:38:29 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: <007d01c2910f$eb496d30$6f01a8c0@HP> Message-ID: At 9:41 PM -0600 11/20/02, Millie Webb wrote: >And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral >pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that >second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label >it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's >last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just >"youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie > I've never been to the U.P. so it must have been in non-Youper contexts that I've heard "youse guys's" for the plural possessive. Speaking of which, or rather of an old related topic, I was at the pharmacy counter of my health plan a couple of weeks ago (the only person standing there waiting to pick up a prescription) and the pharmacist (female, 30-ish, African-American) chastised me (pointing to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all have to stand back there". Definitely a second-person singular "y'all", although it could be argued that it designated "you and anyone else (not now present) in your situation". Larry From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 21 16:23:52 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:23:52 -0800 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all have to stand back > there". Definitely a second-person singular "y'all", although it > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone else (not now > present) in your situation". yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a singular. Must be part of that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill Clinton. Peter R. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 21 17:21:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:21:51 -0500 Subject: Black Hand Message-ID: BLACK HAND--The person who supposedly coined "black hand" on the NEW YORK HERALD had a NEW YORK TIMES obituary in 1920. He had worked on a Brooklyn newspaper before the HERALD. No doubt that he used "black hand" and that he was in the journalism business for 30+ years, but in no way did he coin "black hand." Strike another one from that article on New York words (from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, found in the Temple University clippings). WELLESLEY--I walked all day, passing Babson and Olin colleges, before I found this place. The college is nowhere near public transportation. It's now just after 12, so the archives is closed for lunch... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 21 20:24:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:24:46 -0500 Subject: Wellesley Fudge (1896) Message-ID: Quickly, before I miss the train into Boston. 14 March 1896, THE WELLESLEY MAGAZINE, pg. 306: Betty's blue eyes danced. Her one culinary accomplishment was the manufacture of "fudge," and she feared that would scarcely be of practical value of second street. 18 April 1896, THE WELLESLEY MAGAZINE, pg. 396: This year we have been decidedly gay, with our receptions, open meetings, the Colonial Dance, and the Fudge Sale, besides the usual class socials. 1898, LEGENDA (Yearbook), pg. 14: Prehistoric forms of Fudge were unknown to us as Freshman (sic) in '94... The Wellseley Fudge Cake is in Baker's ads, "Circa 1898." Maybe I'll post that recipe in the wee morning hours after my return home. I also have here Baboon (An Excellent Supper Dish), Urney Pudding, Stickies, Weary Willie Cake, Mahfuh (From a Friend in Iraq), "Spider" Cake (A Very Old New England Recipe) (Next DARE has--?--ed.), Flake Cake (An Old New Hampshire Recipe), and Chocolate Crunchies (Brownie's Cousin), if anyone wants those recipes from the Wellesley cookbooks. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 20:45:11 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:45:11 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: "Appronym" is a good word. A popular book of the early 70s on animal behavior: The imperial animal [by] Lionel Tiger & Robin Fox. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:39 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books > e.g.,Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural > history of the > Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of fish--ed.] > > We called such phenomena "appronyms." > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > > On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > > > Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when > she was a > > kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. > > > > Peter Mc. > > > > --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl > > wrote: > > > > > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband > decided to > > > become a minister) > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************************> Peter A. McGraw > > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > > > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Nov 21 20:49:35 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:49:35 -0500 Subject: Wellesley Fudge (1896) In-Reply-To: <342554E9.00C1E71F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry writes: > I also have here Baboon (An Excellent Supper Dish), Urney Pudding, >Stickies, >Weary Willie Cake, Mahfuh (From a Friend in Iraq), "Spider" >Cake (A Very Old >New England Recipe) (Next DARE has--?--ed.), Flake Cake >(An Old New >Hampshire Recipe), and Chocolate Crunchies (Brownie's >Cousin), if anyone >wants those recipes from the Wellesley cookbooks. Yes, what is Baboon? - A. Murie (that is not meant to be an answer) From ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 21:41:03 2002 From: ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM (Kathy Schlieper) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:41:03 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being used often...instead of "child"? In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby goat" and not a child! Kathy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 22:12:05 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:12:05 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: <20021121214103.26220.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My father said the same thing in the 50's --- Kathy Schlieper wrote: > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain > about > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > goat" and not a child! > > Kathy > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 22:14:55 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:14:55 -0800 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought "y'all" was 2nd person singular, "all y'all" was 2nd person plural. --- Peter Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all > have to stand back > > there". Definitely a second-person singular > "y'all", although it > > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone > else (not now > > present) in your situation". > > yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a > singular. Must be part of > that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill > Clinton. > > Peter R. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus � Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Nov 21 22:26:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:26:54 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, says that by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Schlieper [mailto:ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being used often...instead of "child"? In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby goat" and not a child! Kathy From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Nov 21 22:26:05 2002 From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:26:05 -0500 Subject: Wellesley & Public Transportation (was Black Hand) In-Reply-To: <2D10076F.1012C164.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: From: Bapopik at AOL.COM: > WELLESLEY--I walked all day, passing Babson and Olin colleges, before I > found this place. The college is nowhere near public transportation. Hey! Wellesley College *is* near public transportation! It’s just a 10-15 minute walk from the Wellesley Square stop on the commuter rail (the Framingham/Worcester line leaving from South Station in Boston). A one-way ride costs $3. It’s true that Wellesley is nowhere near the Green Line portion of the T, but commuter rail is part of mass transit too. I never could understand why the admissions office told visitors to take the Green Line out to Riverside and take a cab from there, when taking the commuter rail is faster, closer, and easier, but whatever. Now, *Babson* is nowhere near public transportation. I don’t know Needham well enough to comment about Olin. Judy Yeh (Wellesley class of 2000) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:12:42 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:12:42 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: A teacher I had in grade school also (1940s) -- she also objected on philological grounds to any kid saying that he was going to beat up another kid, since only eggs were to be beaten up. She drew a picture of an egg-beater on the blackboard to illustrate the point. She probably wouldn't have objected to a kid saying that he was going to whack the bejeesus out of another kid, though I don't believe the situation ever arose. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Smith Date: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:12 pm Subject: Re: "kid" vs. "child" > My father said the same thing in the 50's > > > --- Kathy Schlieper > wrote: > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > > used often...instead of "child"? > > > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain > > about > > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > > goat" and not a child! > > > > Kathy > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > > now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:15:19 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:15:19 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nevertheless I think I've noticed a usage shift during my lifetime. Sure I heard the usual lame jokes, when I was a kid, about how "kids" were really baby goats. But I don't remember hearing "kid"='child' used in the singular until my son was of "kid" age--except in direct address and in fairly specific contexts. "Hey, kid!" was usually used by an older (or at least bigger) boy to challenge or menace a younger one. A little later on I remember a fad among girls to use it in direct address to each other (but never to boys) in a different context--e.g., "Oh, kid, you should have seen what I saw the other day..." But I don't recall a straight singular "kid," and when my parents would talk about their childhood my mother would say, "When I was a child..." and my dad would say, "When I was a boy..."--never, "When I was a kid." Yet both of them addressed my sister and me as "you kids" all the time. When my son came home from nursery school one day and explained that "each kid gets one cookie," it struck me as an innovation. Am I making this all up, or do others have similar recollections? Peter Mc. --On Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:26 PM -0500 "Baker, John" wrote: > The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, says that > by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathy Schlieper [mailto:ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "kid" vs. "child" > > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > goat" and not a child! > > Kathy **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:16:31 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:16:31 -0500 Subject: Murderers' Row Message-ID: A baseball historian -- John Thorn -- has just posted a question on an NYC history bulletin board about the origin of the phrase murderers' row. I thought that it had been discussed here, some time ago, but did not find it in the Archives back to 1999. The seeming link from that part of the archives to the older material takes me to the ADL homepage and I don't see a link from there to the old archives. What am I doing wrong? Or does anyone have the Murderers' Row material to hand? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Nov 21 23:51:08 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:51:08 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: <20021121221455.91522.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it possible that y'all used in the singular is polite? Herb -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James Smith Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) I thought "y'all" was 2nd person singular, "all y'all" was 2nd person plural. --- Peter Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all > have to stand back > > there". Definitely a second-person singular > "y'all", although it > > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone > else (not now > > present) in your situation". > > yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a > singular. Must be part of > that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill > Clinton. > > Peter R. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 03:29:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:29:26 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:51 PM -0500 11/21/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >Is it possible that y'all used in the singular is polite? > >Herb That's what I was thinking, that it's another round in the same cycle (although in this case, it would have been very much ritualized politeness). In fact, we may have discussed this possibility back a few years ago when we were discussing "y'all". I had just never had one addressed to me (sing.) before. larry From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 22 05:22:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:22:39 -0500 Subject: "German" measles Message-ID: Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but offers no explanation. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 06:10:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:10:44 EST Subject: Baboon, Urney Pudding, Stickies, Weary Willie Cake Message-ID: MISC.: Yes, I took the 3:57 train back to Boston. But the Green Line "T" is nowhere near Wellesley. I saw a sign that said Boston is 10 miles away. I walked at least five miles...The Boston Public Library had NOTHING. The LOC and NYPL both have edition three of the Boston Phoenix CHEAP EATS (1975). The BPL had the same edition. A librarian told me that they "don't have every book." Well, yeah, but this is a book about Boston restaurants, and this is the Boston Public Library. No menu collection, no newspaper clippings files, no newspaper indexes, either. I took the 7 p.m. bus home. THE WELLESLEY COOK BOOK edited by the Utah Wellesley Club ("S.I.: S.n., n.d." One author was Class of 1918, if that helps--ed.) Pg. 24: _BABOON--(An Excellent Supper Dish)--_ One-half cup of milk; 1 heaping teaspoonful butter, melted in milk, in chafing dish; 5 eggs, dropped in hot milk. As soon as the eggs begin to thicken add the solid part of can of tomato or about two cups. Stir throroughly all the time and add salt, pepper, paprika and sugar to taste. Serve on crisp crackers. MASSACHUSETTS. Pg. 36: _URNEY PUDDING--_ Two eggs; their weight in butter, sugar and flour; 1 teaspoonful soda; 1 tablespoonful raspberry jam. Beat butter and sugar to cream, add eggs one by one, beating lightly. Then add raspberry jam and soda and lastly flour. Beat well. Grease pudding basin and boil for two hours. Tie a cloth over the top and set in pan of boiling water. NEW JERSEY. Pg. 38: _STICKIES--_ (Next DARE?--ed.) Make a good biscuit dough (beaten biscuit dough), roll thin; take a large cup of brown sugar, the same cup of molasses, a little more than half a cup of butter. Cream butter and sugar together and spread on the dough. Cut in pieces one and a half inches, roll and set on end and pour syrup over them after placing in a baking pan. NORTH CAROLINA. Pg. 41: _WEARY WILLIE CAKE--_ One cup sugar; 1 cup flour with 1 teaspoonful baking powder sifted in. Mix these two together. A scant one-third cup melted butter. Break a whole egg in a cup and fill cup with milk. Pour this into sugar and flour. Put in vanilla and a little pinch of salt. Beat all with a Dover egg beater and bake. This makes eight cup cakes. IOWA. (Can we use "Dover egg beater" to date this book?--ed.) FAVORITE RECIPES OF WELLESLEY ALUMNAE Compiled by Wellesley-ni-Westchester for the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Fund of Wellesley College, 1875-1950 Pg. 26: _MAHFUH_ _From a Friend in Iraq_ Use fresh young _grape leaves_ if available. (If not, use cabbage leaves wilted inboiling salted water.) Better do a few at a time. Mix well (1 1/4 pounds finely ground meat_ and 1 cup uncooked rice_. Roll firmly in grape (or cabbage) leaf to about finger size but shorter. Pack closely in kettle; put plate on top to hold down firmly. Add _2 cups boiling water_; boil for 1 1/2 hours, adding more water as rice swells. (There should be very little gravy when done.) Remove to platter; pour hot _tomato juice_ over all. Angelina _Kuhl_ Southard, '03 Pg. 66: _"SPIDER" CAKE_ (Next DARE?--ed.) _A Very Old New England Recipe_ 1 1/2 cups corn meal 1/2 cup white flour 1/3 cup sugar 1 teaspoon salt 2 teaspoons baking powder 1 teaspoon soda 1 cup sour milk 2 eggs, beaten 2 cups sweet milk Sift first five ingredients. Add soda to sour milk; add eggs to 1 cup sweet milk; stir in thoroughly. Pour into well buttered "spider" (frying pan). Just before baking, pour second cup sweet milk into center; do not stir. Bake until golden (about 25 minutes). Turn out on large round plate. Should be consistency of custard. Alice _Manson_ Barlow, HPR '09 Pg. 99: _FLAKE CAKE_ _An Old New Hampshire Recipe_ (Not in DARE or Mariani--ed.) 1/2 cup shortening 1/2 cup sugar 3 egg yolks, unbeaten 1 teaspoon clove 1 1/2 cups flour 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup molasses, with scant 1/2 teaspoon soda 1/2 cup sour milk, with scant 1/2 teaspoon soda Cream shortening and sugar; add egg yolks and clove. Beat well. Add flour sifted with salt, alternately with liquids (molasses with soda and sour milk with soda). Bake in three greased and floured 8-inch layers (or in two 9-inch layers) at 375 degrees for about 20 minutes. Cool. FROSTING AND FILLING: Boil _1 cup sugar_ in 1/4 cup water_ until it will thread from spoon; pour onto _3 stiffly beaten egg whites_ and beat until cold. Ella _Robinson_ Rose, x'01 Pg. 104: _CHOCOLATE CRUNCHIES_ _Brownies' Cousin_ 2 squares chocolate, melted 1/2 cup butter 1 cup sugar 2 eggs, unbeaten 1/2 cup flour 1/2 teaspoon vanilla 1/2 cup nut meats, chopped fine Mix ingredients (except nuts) in order given in top of double boiler. Pour into shallow pan. Spead nuts on top. Bake at 400 degrees for about 15 minutes. Cut in squares. Esther _Lacount_ Card, '22 Pg. 104: _SNIPPY DOODLES_ 1 tablespoon butter 1 cup brown sugar 1 egg, well beaten 1/2 cup milk 1 cup flour 1 teaspoon baking powder 1 teaspoon cinnamon Cream butter and sugar; add remaining ingredients. Bake in buttered pan in moderate oven for 15 to 20 minutes. While hot sprinkle with sugar. Cut in squares. Florence L. Ellery, '88 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 07:08:18 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:08:18 EST Subject: Wellesley Tea Room Fudge Cake (circa 1898) Message-ID: For the final DARE volume? FAVORITE RECIPES OF WELLESLEY ALUMNAE Compiled by Wellesley-in-Westchester for the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Fund of Wellesley College, 1975-1950 Pg. 94: _WELLESLEY TEA ROOM FUDGE CAKE_ _The Original Recipe_ 2/3 cup butter 2-2/3 cups brown sugar, well packed 1 whole egg and 3 egg yolks, well beaten 4 squares unsweetened chocolate 2/3 cup boiling water 1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder 2-2/3 cups sifted pastry flour 2/3 cup thick sour milk 1 1/4 teaspoons soda. dissolved in milk 1 teaspoon vanilla Salt Cream butter and sugar; add eggs. Dissolve chocolate in boiling water; stir to consistency of thick paste and add. Add baking powder to flour; add alternately with milk (and soda). Add vanilla and salt. Bake in two 9-inch square pans in moderate oven. Fill and frost with chocolate frosting and chopped nuts. (Serves 24.) Alice G. Coombs, '93 (1893--ed.) EDITOR'S NOTE: To many alumnae the recipe for the famous Fudge Cake served in the original Wellesley Tea Room will be the "sine qua non" of this book. Although recent alumnae may remember only Miss Snow's Blue Dragon or Seiler's, Alice Coombs and her sister, Grace, '94. ran "The Tea Room" for many years. Miss Coombs writes, "I found the recipe originally in a Boston newspaper and changed the measurements from cups to weights for greater accuracy. I have now tried to get it back to cups again, as I did not keep the original clipping. THe brown sugar for the cake weighed 14 1/2 ounces and the flour weighed 10 ounces." BAKER'S AD (1982 General Foods Corporation copyright date is shown--ed.) _Baker's Masterpiece Series_ _Wellesley Fudge Cake._ _Circa 1898._ _Only the Finest Real Baking Chocolate Would Do._ In 1898, two Wellesley graduates spotted an intriguing recipe for chocolate fudge cake in a Boston newspaper. No doubt, they used Baker's baking chocolate for its unique richness. Baker's had already been making fine chocolate for 135 years. The graduates made the cake for the Wellesley Tea Room. And this simple, incredibly fudgy cake has been famous ever since. Taste it tonight. _Classic Fudge Frosting_ Melt 4 squares BAKER'S Unsweetened Chocolate and 2 tablespoons butter or margarine over very low heat. Combine 4 cups unsifted confectioners' sugar, a dash of salt, 1/2 cup milk and 1 teaspoon vanilla; add chocolate mixture, blanding well. Let stand, if necessary, until spreading consistency, stirring occasionally. Spread quickly, adding a small amount of additional milk if frosting thickens. Makes about 2 1/2 cups. _Wellesley Fudge Cake_ 4 squares BAKER'S unsweetened chocolate 1/2 cup _each_ hot water _and_ sugar 1 teaspoon vanilla 1 3/4 cups sifted all-purpose flour* 1 teaspoon _each_ baking soda _and_ salt 1/2 cup butter or margarine 1 1/4 cups sugar 3 eggs 3/4 cup milk *Or use 2 cups sifted SWANS DOWN Cake Flour Heat chocolate with water over very low heat, stirring until mixture is smooth. Add 1/2 cup sugar; cook and stir 2 minutes longer. Cool to lukewarm. Add vanilla. Sift flour, soda and salt. Cream butter. Gradually beat in the sugar; continue beating until fluffy. Beat eggs in thoroughly, one at a time. Add flour and milk alternately, beating after each addition until smooth. Blend in chocolate mixture. Pour into 2 greased and floured 9-inch layer pans. Bake at 350 degrees for 30 to 35 minutes, or until cake tests done. Cool 10 minutes; remove from pans and finish cooling on racks. Fi and frost with Classic Fudge Frosting. Garnish if desired. _For high altitude areas_: In chocolate mixture, use 1/3 cup sugar; use 3/4 teaspoon baking soda. Add 2 tablespoons each flour and milk; bake at 375 degrees. CHASE, MARY (Mrs. Harry Curtis Lockwood) (Clipping from November 1955 WELLESLEY ALUMNAE MAGAZINE?--ed.) (...) Her sister Alice writes, "Mary and Clara Shaw '97 established The Wellesley Tea Room in '97. In 1900 she and Carolyn _Rogers_ Hill (1900) started The Wellesley Inn where the famous Wellesley Fudge Cake originated. (So it was The Wellesley in in 1900, and not the Wellesley Tea Room in 1898? Mary Chase "retired to Washington, in good health and very young in spirit." Is there a Washington obituary?--ed.) HANDWRITTEN NOTE IN FILE Wellesley Fudge Cake 1/2 cake Baker's chocolate melted 2 eggs 2 cups brown sugar 1/2 cup sour milk (or buttermilk) 1/2 cup cold water 1 teasp. soda 2 cups flour 1 teasp. vanilla Bake in two layers and put together with frosting and English walnuts Frosting 2 1/2 cups brown sugar 1/2 cup cream 2 squares chocolate Butter size walnut 1 cup Eng. walnuts added after cooking Cream butter, add sugar, then melted chocolate, eggs, milk and water, flour, etc. Frosting When cooked, (stir until sugar and chocolate melt but not during cooking) let cool before stirring down. If frosting is of the right consistency it takes quite a lot of time to stir it down. Kindly do not give this recipe away freely, as I obtained it on that condition! J.W.P. (Josephine W. Pitman, Class of 1912) WELLESLEY: PART OF THE AMERICAN STORY by Alice Payne Hackett New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc. Publishers 1949 Pg. 57: There were disappointments, too, in store for Henry Durant when he came to cope with three hundred intelligent, active girls in their teens. It was one of his principles that "pies, lies and doughnuts should never have a place in Wellesley College." (If they're interested, I've got pies, lies, doughnuts, and chocolate right here in the Popik Collection--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 08:47:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:47:19 EST Subject: "Negroni" pre-1950? Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower asked about a pre-1950 "Negroni." THE CRAFT OF THE COCKTAIL by Dale DeGroff New York: Clarkson Potter 2002 Pg. 158: _NEGRONI_ Created in Florence, Italy, in the 1920s, at the Casani Bar, when customer Count Camillo Negroni asked the barman to add gin to his Americano. This drink can be made with vodka in place of gin. 1 ounce Campari 1 ounce sweet vermouth 1 ounce gine Flamed orange peel (see page 58), for garnish Combine all the ingredienmts in an iced old-fashioned glass and stir. Garnish with the flamed orange peel. I have tons of 1930s (Post-Prohibition) drink books, and this drink is not in any one of them that I just went through. For example, it's not in 1700 DRINKS. It's not in ESQUIRE'S HANDBOOK FOR HOSTS (1949). It's not in Crosby Gaige's drink book of 1944 (that had the "Bloody Mary," for example). I'll look around some more, checking the usual databases. Interesting is this authoritative book: TED SAUCIER'S BOTTOMS UP New York: Greystone Press 1951 INDEX: Negrone (Italian aperitif)...176 Negroni Capriccio...176 Negroni Doney...177 Negroni-Ritz of Paris...177 (O.T.: That's it for helping Sheidlower. Come this Saturday, he's getting beans from me.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 22 12:39:07 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:39:07 -0500 Subject: "German" measles In-Reply-To: <200211220022_MC3-1-1C1A-EDCA@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Rubella seems to be dropping out of the langauge (at least outside medical circles). On this morning's local news (Lansing), a young woman who had a child and dropped out of high school was featured in a story about dropouts. Her name was "Rubella." Luckily, she named her child Maryanne. dInIs Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but offers no explanation. --Dodi Schultz -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Nov 22 12:26:12 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:26:12 -0500 Subject: German measles Message-ID: German measles appears in OED with 1875 as the earliest date. A search of Google produced an article with reference to Liberty measles, a substitution prompted by the "unpatriotic" association with German in time of war when Germany was an adversary. No hits were produced for German measles in either repository in Making of America. I will be at Vassar later today with access to other data banks. More later. David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com SEE THE CALL FOR PAPERS www.ilaword.org From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 14:15:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:15:36 EST Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: In a message dated 11/21/02 4:51:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM writes: > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? Billy the Kid, born about 1860 the Sundance Kid and Kid Curry, both members of the last great Wild West outlaw gang, "The Wild Bunch", active in the 1890's and into the 1900's the Yellow Kid, a confidence man who was well known in the 1920's if not earlier I think there was an early comic strip entitled "The Yellow Kid" John R. Tunis "The Kid From Tompkinsville" published in the late 1930's, with several sequels, including "The Kid Comes Back". The title character was frequently referred to in the text simply as "the Kid". - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 14:20:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:20:45 EST Subject: Murderers' Row Message-ID: 2nd attempt to send this post---first one disappeared into the bit bucket Subj: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/23/02 8:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > >To: "19cBB" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "John Thorn" >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:38:05 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Murderers' Row >More in the rummaging vein. I hope this of interest. > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from a >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: > >Murderers' Row was an actual alley long before the Civil War, starting where >Watts Street ended at Sullivan Street, midway along the block between Grand >and Broome Streets. > >Now part of the fashionable Soho district, Murderers' Row was one of many >mean streets in the neighborhood later known as Darktown (as the Chinese had >Chinatown and the Jews had Jewtown--yes, that was what they called the Lower >East Side in the years before 1900). > > > >John Thorn > Subj: Re: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/24/02 9:39:21 AM Eastern Standard Time From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Jerry, I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? Jesse Sheidlower Subj: Re: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/24/02 11:08:06 AM Eastern Standard Time From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Dickson's New Baseball Dictionary gives an 1858 date for baseball use of "murderers' row," but says the jail usage predates that and is the ultimate origin. Only indirect citations are given. Dickson cites an April 1948 "Baseball Digest" article by Bill Bryson (either a different Bill Bryson or a typo in the date) that refers to an 1858 newspaper article. Also a Ph.D. dissertation by Edward J. Nichols, "An Historical Dictionary of Baseball Terminology" (1939) refers to an 1858 clipping in Henry Chadwick's scrapbook that uses the term. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Nov 22 14:24:32 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:24:32 -0000 Subject: German measles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dodi Schultz wrote: > Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term > "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly > known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One > of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but > offers no explanation. Intriguingly, the index to "Horsefeathers", by Charles Earle Funk, says "French measles, see under German measles". Mr Funk says it was so named because it was first described by a German physician, Friedrich Hoffmann, in 1740. Several Web sites say the same thing. My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which is well after the OED's first entry. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Nov 22 17:10:57 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:10:57 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <3DDE3E20.31166.5C2339@localhost> Message-ID: Could someone, pretty please with sugar on top, do a Westlaw search for me on that for legal/military first use? And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" Is it? Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 17:24:22 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:24:22 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > Could someone, pretty please with sugar on top, do a Westlaw search for me > on that for legal/military first use? Hayward v. Bath SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE 40 N.H. 100; 1860 N.H. LEXIS 124 January, 1860 OPINION: ... [*105] [**7] sound law, exactly and literally as it is printed, the evidence fell entirely short of bringing the commissioners for Grafton county, or either of them, within its condemnation, and utterly failed to prove the petitioners [**8] guilty of the improprieties charged against them. As this discussion and analysis of the evidence could not be of general interest, they are omitted. The opinion concluded as follows:] We have thus adverted to all the exceptions charging the commissioners with corruption, partiality and improper conduct, and to all the substantial portions of the evidence by which those charges are attempted to be sustained, and the result, at which we have most unhesitatingly arrived, is, that the charges are entirely unsustained. So far as we can discover, the evidence discloses nothing to prove that either of the commissioners acted corruptly, under any improper bias or prejudice, or was in any way guilty of conduct unbecoming his official position. On the contrary, the very full and satisfactory statement of Mr. Parker, the chairman of the board, in his deposition, of the way and manner in which the whole case was considered by them after the close of the hearing, and of the very deliberate and careful examination they gave to it for nearly twenty-four hours, almost demonstrates that there never could have been the slightest foundation in truth for the numerous charges and assumptions involved [**9] in the various exceptions taken to the conduct and motives [*106] of the commissioners. Indeed, the testimony offered by the town shows most clearly the honesty and purity of purpose of Mr. Culver, whose conduct is most strongly assailed, and that he could have been actuated only by his conviction of what the public accommodation demanded; for it ... Fred Shapiro > > And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and > Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he > wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" > > Is it? > > Katy > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 18:09:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:09:37 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: My previous posting was from Lexis. Here's earlier evidence from Westlaw: Reformed Protestant Albany Dutch Church of Albany v. Bradford 8 Cow. 457 N.Y.Sup. 1826. December Term, 1826 no services have been rendered by the plaintiff since the 2d of December, 1820. Having been suspended for conduct unbecoming the ministerial character, he stands in no better situation than if he had, without cause, refused to render the services stipulated by his contract. Considering those services not only as the consideration, but the condition on which his right to the salary depends, and he having failed in performance of that condition, he has no right to the salary. The defendants are entitled to judgment. [This is from the dissenting opinion of Judge Savage.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 18:26:18 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:26:18 -0500 Subject: "Conduct Unbecoming" in 1777 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: The following appears in the Writings of George Washington, ed. John C. Fitzpatrick, vol. 10, page 137: GENERAL ORDERS Head-Quarters, White Marsh, December 3, 1777 ... The Court having considered the first charge and the evidence, are of opinion that Capt. Duffey behaved with a warmth, which tended to produce a riot, and do sentence him to be reprimanded in General Orders. Upon the second charge they are of opinion that Major Howard, when Capt. Duffey struck him, had deviated from the line of his duty, and consequently was not in the execution of his office. They do therefore acquit Capt. Duffey of the second charge. The foregoing opinions are approved by the Commander in Chief, and the sentences of reprimand appear to be pronounced with great justness, on an impropriety of conduct unbecoming the character of officers, whose dutyit is to suppress all riot and tumult, and to set examples of moderation, decency and order. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Nov 22 22:24:07 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:24:07 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and > Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he > wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" It was impossible to be within radio/television reception distance of Massachusetts and not hear it. In fact, WBZ Radio interviewed me (calling me at home at 6:45 AM) about the whole incident (ten minutes of interview reduced to a five second sound bite), so actually was a part of the media circus that ensued. This incident was written about extensively in the Boston Globe for several days (and I would imagine the Boston Herald, too). Their archives should reflect a fair amount of ink devoted to it. The radio folks (Jon Keller, etc.) also weighed in with commentary. -- Steve From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Nov 23 00:19:00 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:19:00 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my wife, but O!, you kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. I can't document it right now, though. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter A. McGraw" Date: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:15 pm Subject: Re: "kid" vs. "child" > Nevertheless I think I've noticed a usage shift during my > lifetime. Sure I > heard the usual lame jokes, when I was a kid, about how "kids" > were really > baby goats. But I don't remember hearing "kid"='child' used in the > singular until my son was of "kid" age--except in direct address > and in > fairly specific contexts. "Hey, kid!" was usually used by an > older (or at > least bigger) boy to challenge or menace a younger one. A little > later on > I remember a fad among girls to use it in direct address to each > other (but > never to boys) in a different context--e.g., "Oh, kid, you should > have seen > what I saw the other day..." > > But I don't recall a straight singular "kid," and when my parents > wouldtalk about their childhood my mother would say, "When I was a > child..." and > my dad would say, "When I was a boy..."--never, "When I was a > kid." Yet > both of them addressed my sister and me as "you kids" all the time. > > When my son came home from nursery school one day and explained > that "each > kid gets one cookie," it struck me as an innovation. > > Am I making this all up, or do others have similar recollections? > > Peter Mc. > > > --On Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:26 PM -0500 "Baker, John" > wrote: > > > The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, > says that > > by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. > > > > John Baker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kathy Schlieper [ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "kid" vs. "child" > > > > > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > > used often...instead of "child"? > > > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about > > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > > goat" and not a child! > > > > Kathy > > > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 00:39:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:39:36 EST Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" in 1756 Message-ID: Fred rejected this, from the Americn Memory database. But it's darn close and deserves mention. The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799George Washington to Adam Stephen, February 1, 1756 IMAGES The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources, 1745-1799. John C. Fitzpatrick, Editor. Alexandria February 1, 1756. Sir: If you find that a good road by Ross's Mill can be so easily cut, the sooner it is set about the better. As the Governor is still silent concerning what I represented about building a fort on Patterson's Creek, I would have you desist, at least for a while, and erect such buildings as are absolutely necessary at Fort Cumberland, and no more. You may depend upon it I shall take proper notice of the late proceedings you speak of, but for certain reasons am obliged to postpone it. Things not yet being rightly settled for punishing deserters according to their crimes, you must go on in the old way ofwhipping stoutly.4 [Note 4: Stephen had asked if he should continue the whipping punishment for desertion. The other matter was the case of a defiant officer who seemed to have been imitating Capt. John Dagworthy in questioning Washington's authority. Stephen did not mention names.] If casks are still wanted, there should be great care used to provide them in time. Looking upon our affairs at this critical juncture to be of such importance, and having a personal acquaintance with General Shirley, which I thought might add some weight to the strength of our memorial, I solicited leave, which is obtained, to visit him in person, and accordingly set out in two days for Boston, having procured letters, &c. from the Governor, which was the result of a Council for that purpose called. You may depend upon it, I shall leave no stone unturned for this salutary end; and, I think, if reason, justice, and every other equitable right can claim attention, we deserve to be heard. As I have taken the fatigue &c. of this tedious journey upon myself, (which I never thought of until I had left Winchester,) I hope you will conduct every thing in my absence for the interest and honor of the service. And I must exhort you in the most earnest manner to strict discipline and due exercise of arms. You may tell Mr. Livingston from me, that, if the soldiers are not skilled in arms equal to what may reasonably be expected, that he most assuredly shall answer it at my return. And I must ingenuously tell you, that I also expect to find them expert at bush-fighting. You are to order that a particular account be taken of the provisions that are delivered to the Maryland and Carolina companies by the commissary. The Governor seems determined to make the officers comply with the terms of getting their commissions, or forfeit them, and approves of Dekeyser's suspension,5 and orders, that he shall not be admitted into the camp. He seems uneasy at what I own gives me much concern,i.e., that gaming seems to be introduced into the camp. I am ordered to discourage it, and must desire that you will intimate the same. [Note 5: Lehaynsius Dekeyser was tried by court-martial on a charge of conduct "unbecoming a gentleman and an officer," in cheating at cards, and found guilty. (See Orders, January 8,ante.)] I have sent Commissions for McCarty and Doctor Roy; which deliver, and have them declared in Orders. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 23 01:03:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:03:51 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:19:00PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my >wife, but O!, you kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. I >can't document it right now, though. It's in HDAS. Jesse Sheidlower From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 01:22:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:22:04 EST Subject: Cheat-and-Retreat (1992); Dirty White Collar Message-ID: DIRTY WHITE COLLAR "Dirty white collar" is the Wordspy "word of the day." Mention is made of "blue collar (1950)," but I posted a 1945 "blue collar" right here. This is before everyone's time I know, but no mention is made of the 1979 Foreigner hit, "Dirty White Boy." Foreigner was an influential band at the time, and the song brought "dirty white" to everyone's lips. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHEAT AND RETREAT Not in OED. Did Barnhart record this? Did anyone record it? I'm seeing "cheat-and-retreat" a lot lately. The first hit on Google Groups is 11 March 1992. The following hit also talks about Iraq: Groups search result 205 for "cheat and retreat" From: CMSgt Mike Bergman (bergman at afnews.pa.af.mil) Subject: Making Mideast Safe from Iraq This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: sci.military Date: 1992-08-20 08:43:58 PST >From CMSgt Mike Bergman Press Pack #37 for the Week of September 14, 1992Making Middle East Safe From IraqBy Jim GaramoneAmerican Forces Information ServiceIn the aftermath of the Persian Gulf war, the United Nationsdetermined Iraq should never again be able to threaten the MiddleEast with weapons of mass destruction.U.S. Army Maj. Karen M. Jansen has been on the front line inverifying that Iraq complies. Until recently, she was a chemicaland biological weapons inspection operations officer for the U.N.Special Commission on Iraq.Jansen, a chemical officer assigned to the Army's ChemicalResearch, Development and Engineering Center at Aberdeen ProvingGround, Md., made six trips to Iraq during the 13 months she was onloan to the commission. She describes Iraq as a place where theleaders develop a "fantasy" perspective of reality to manipulatetheir citizens into supporting the Baath party goals."Iraq is the most closed society any American is likely tosee," Jansen said. "The leaders use their carefully controlledmedia to turn the people on and off. For example, they hold largecelebrations in honor of their `victory' during the Iran-Iraq war."Jansen said the Iraqi people also believe they won the PersianGulf war. The leadership feels that surviving an encounter withthe most powerful force in the world is proof of victory, she said."From the beginning, the state-controlled propaganda has beenso calculated and repetitive that the man in the street refers tothat war as `the war with the United States,' which is part of thereason Iraq is trying to assert that weapons inspectors from theUnited States are not impartial," she said.Predictably, they have claimed a victory over the July 1992incident at the Ministry of Agriculture, as the U.N. team thateventually went into the complex had no American inspector, saidJansen. The truth is, they bowed to U.N. pressure just days afterthey vowed no U.N. weapons inspector would ever set foot inside theministry, not even if every Iraqi citizen perished because of theaction."Cheat-and-retreat" is the phrase many have used to describeIraqi behavior in the course of weapons inspections, she said. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 10:52:49 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:52:49 EST Subject: Philadelphia Racketeer Slang (1928) ("Gorillas from th' Big Apple") Message-ID: From the clippings files in Temple University. I apologize in advance for typing mistakes. The PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 5 October 1928, pg. 40: _Racketeers' Here Invent Rapid-Fire Lingo_ _To Carry On Business in Bootleg Industry_ _"Bootician's" Trial and Grand_ _Jury's "Up=and=Down" Reveal_ _Jargon That WOuld Astonish_ _a College Professor_ _"Czars" and "Barons" Rule Un-_ _derworld Empire of "Wildcats,"_ _"Bulls,: "Gorillas," "Mules," and_ _"Blind Pigs"_ "HELLOW! 'Zat you, Reds?" "Yeh." "This is Goo-Goo speaking. How's that mule you're cleaning?" "Block-an' fall." "Hm-mm. Well, have th' cooker, give it th' frown anyway. We gotta shoot tonight." "Yeh, if th' dicks don't knock us off." "Whaddaya mean! Are yuh getting th' snakes? Th' bulls are taking it, ain't they?" "Yeh, but most of 'em are nuts, since this up-and-down." "I know! I know! I'm sending yuh a couple of trailers, with tin shirts--gorillas from th' Big Apple. We shoot tonight--or somebody gets taken for a ride!" "I getcha. Goo!" What sort of gibberish is this? It is merely the new language of the "Racket"--the jargon, which has grown up with the bootlegging industry. Translation of the above imaginary telephone conversation, between a bootleg "czar" and one of his "barons," into polite English, would go something like this: "Hello! Is that you Reds?" "Yes." "This is Goo-Goo speaking. How is the illicit white liquor that you are manufacturing from specially denatured alcohol?" "It is very unsatisfactory--in fact, dangerous to drink." "Hm-mm. Well, instruct the operator of the still to add the coloring material, notwithstanding. We must start shipping this liquor tonight." "What do you mean? Are you becoming afflicted with delirium tremens? The police are accepting bribes to remain silent and to warn you of impending raids, are they not?" "Yea, but most of them are officials who will not accept bribes, since this Grand Jury investigation." "I am fully aware of that fact! I am sending you two armed guards for your liquor truck, with bullet-proof vests--rough and redoutable men from New York. We start shipping liquor tonight--or someone will be abducted in a motor car and murdered, and his body will be thrown into some lonely locality." :"I comprehend your instructions, too!" Built on the more or less familiar ring of the underworld, this bootleggers' (Col. 2--ed.) jargon has given birth to so many new terms in the last few years that even an experienced detective, sitting within earshot of two "racketeers," would be puzzled by at least some of their conversation. It's an interesting "language," this "racket" lingo' so interesting, in fact, that prohibition agents under Lieutenant Colonel Samuel O. Wynne, U. S. Prohibition Administrator for the Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania area,have started compiling a word-list of terms used by "racketeers." "They're amusing--some of the terms," said Colonel Wynne. "And it is profitable for men who come in contact with bootleggers to know their language. Needless to say, however, our reports are still made in English." The first of the many "racket" terms was made "officially" public when David D. Friedman, a special prohibition investigator, testified in court that Joel D. Kerper, the so-called "bootician" (bootlegger to elite society), kept his "varnish," "furniture polish," etc., in a "drop." It was explained in court just what a "drop" is--a place where any kind of contraband liquor is stored for distribution. "A 'drop' may be anything from a warehouse, supplying a number of 'joints,' to a garbage can in an alley, where a small-time 'speakeasy' keeps its stock of drinks," said Alexander P. MacPhee, Assistant Prohibition Administrator. "Then I have known of 'walking drops.' One man we 'knocked off' had twenty-six half pints of 'white mule' concealed in special pockets in his clothing. "Do you know what a 'dump' is? Of course, it means a 'joint' or 'dive' or 'blind pig'--that is, a 'speakeasy.' But it also has a new special meaning. A 'dump' is a contrivance whereby (Col. 3--ed.) the bartender can get rid of the evidence in a hurry when he is 'jumped'--that is, raided. "In a 'speakeasy' that sells only 'shots' or drinks--no bottled goods--the 'dump' is simply a big funnel behind the bar, with a hose leading to an ash-pile or something in the basement. The liquor is in a pitcher right beside the funnel, and when the raid breaks, the bartender 'dumps' the liquor into the funnel. "In places that sell half-pints and pint bottles, the 'hooch' is kept in a specially built five-gallon copper tank, with a big hole in the bottom leading to the ash-pile. There's a big stopper in the bottom, like a bath-tub plug, only bigger, hitched to a rope that the bartender keeps in one hand. When the 'joint' is 'jumped' he yanks the rope, and the 'dump' does the rest. You've got to be as quick as lightning and keep him from pulling that rope, or your evidence is gone." Here are a few more terms and definitions from the "Racket" vocabulary: "Alky," alcohol; "alley," a place where beer is made illegally. "Baloney," nonsense; "bang," a hypodermic narcotic dose; "baron," a leader of a group of bootleggers; "the Big Apple," New York CIty; "the big boys," men in power; "big house," a penitentiary; "block-and-fall," very strong and doubtful liquor; "blow out," to throw out of court; "boat," a beer-laden freight car; "boiler," a still; "brannigan," a spree; "broad," a woman; "bump off," to kill, to raid; "burn," to electrocute. "Can," a still, a jail, to discard; "cannon," a pickpocket; "captain," a susceptible person; "chef," one who regulates a still; "clink," a jail; "cover-up house," a place used by permitees to divert alcohol to bootleg channels; "crash," to gain entrance to; "crowd," an organization; "czar," the supreme ruler of a "racketeer," metropolis; "cut," to dilute, diluted, a share; "cutting plant," a place where moonshine liquor or redistilled alcohol is deiluted with water and colored with burnt sugar. "D. O. D.," a very potent liquor (death on delivery); "darb," something magnificent; "drag," a share, influence; "drill," to shoot. "Fade," to disappear; "five yards," $500; "fix," to arrange, to bribe, to (Col. 4--ed.) kill; "fixer," one who arranges a bribe or other matter; "frisk," to search. "Gab," a conversation, to converse; "gaff joint," a dishonest gambling establishment; "gat," a pistol; "get," to kill, to capture, to defeat, to understand; "giggle coup," liquor; "gink," a traitor; "give the works," to kill; "graft," illegal profits, a scheme; "grand," $1,000; "gun," a crook, a hypodermic narcotic outfit. "Hardware," a pistol, weapons; "harness bull," a policeman in uniform; "hijack," to steal a liquor shipment; "hijacker," a bootlegger-pirate; "hoist," to commit highway robbery. "Jam," to compromise, a predicament; "joint," a low establishment, a home; "jolt," a drink of whisky' "jump," to raid, to arrest. "King," a leader of a group of "barons;" "knock off," to kill, to raid, to put out of business. "Lamp," an eye, to look at; "licker up," to drink plentifully; "load," a quantity; "loaded," intoxicated, prepared; "lush," a drunkard; "lushken," a saloon. "The main drag," the main street or highway; "massage," to drub severely; "mitt broad," a female fortune teller; "mob," an organized gang of crooks; "money-man," a financial backer; "mouthpiece," an attorney; "mule," moonshine whisky with a "kick." "Needle," to irritate, as a person, or to strengthen, as a liwuor; "needled beer," beer containing more than one-half of one per cent alcohol; "nip," a small "jolt" of whisky; "noodle-soup," nonsense. "oil," whisky, to bribe; "oiled," intoxicated; "once-over," a cursory inspection; "outfit," a gang or organization. "Palooka," a simpleton, a tyro; "papa," a "gold-digger's" patron. a husband; "pay-off," payment of a bribe; "pill," a bullet; "plant," a subterfuge, a place where peddlers keep supplies; "poker-faced," inscrutable; "pre-war," liquor made or alleged to be made before the World War; "promote," to steal; "protection," official assistance in return for a bribe; "pusher," a "small-time guy" who sells for a large dealer; "Put in the middle," to compromise. "Queer," counterfeit; "the queer," counterfeit money. "Racket," a revel, a quarrel, a protest, a noise, a scheme, a profession or business, the bootleg industry and all its branches; "rake-off," an illicit share of profits; "razz," to criticize vociferously; "reaf stuff," liquor of pre-war waulity; "red eye," colored "mule" liquor; "ride," to punish, to reprimand, a death trip by motor car; "rod," a pistol; "rot-gut," vile shisky; "rum row," a group of liquor-laden vessels at sea beyond jurisdiction; "runner," a "hustler," an operator fo a liquor truck. "Salty," severe; "sand-bag," to deceive. to knock out; "sell," to convince, to deceive; "sell-out," to betray, (Col. 5--ed.) a betrayal; "set-up," and "easy mark," a pre-arranged outcome; "shake-down," to extort moeny from, extortion; "shanty," a bruised eye; "shot," a drink of whisky, a photograph, a chance, a hypodermic narcotic dose, intoxicated, exhausted; "shot beer," same as "needled" beer; "sleogh ride," to deceive, a trick; "smacl," a blow, a dollar, a kiss; "smile," a drink of whisky; "smoke," tenderloin whisky, ten cents a "shot;" "snifter," a small drink of whisky; "snort," a large drink of whisky; "snootful," a large wuantity of drafts of intoxicating liquor; "street," tp eject. "Take," to defraud; "take for a ride," to abduct and murder in a motor car, "take it," to accept bribes; "third-rail," whisky of high "voltage;" "tin," money, a detective's badge; "tincan," to deceive, to "lay down," a dilapidated motor car; "tumble," to be hoazed. to understand, an understanding, a chance; "turnip," a watch; "two-time," to deceive. "Up-and-up," honest; "up-and-down," an investigation. "Varnish," op-called "rye" whisky; "velvet," clear profit. "Weenie," a sausage of the "hot-dog" type, a chorus girl; "wild-cat," a place where beer is made illegally; "white mule," clear "mule" quality whisky; "wood," a beer keg. "Yen," to have a desire; money; a dollar; a desire. The "Racket" language is so amusing that high officials are taking a hand in supplying words for the vocabulary. William F. Knauer, Deputy Attorney Gerneral of Pennsylvania, in charge of liquor law enforcement, contributed the term "blow out." Judge John Monaghan, District Attorney of Philadelphia, who is investigating the doings of the "Racketeer," invented a slang term himself, "trucketeer," which means a bootlegger's truck driver/ Any one can learn enough of the vocabulary to amek himself understood. But to speak the language is more difficult. It is spoken from the corner of one's "mug," with appropriate movement of the eyebrows and hands, palms down. And after one has mastered the "racket" lingo, he has just begun, for the underworld abounds in special dialects and jargons, each in its own field. Pickpockets, "con" men. dope peddlers, and other "professionals" all have jargons of their own. From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sat Nov 23 11:53:20 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:53:20 +0100 Subject: Negroni pre-1950 Message-ID: Using Google I found this on the origin of the cocktail: http://www.coopfirenze.it/info/art_901.htm It refers to the book by another barman, Luca Picchi, Sulle tracce del conte. La vera storia del cocktail Negroni, ed. Plan, 11,4 euro, 77 pp. "Picchi ci racconta del Caffè Casoni, dove, in un giorno imprecisato fra il 1919 e il 1920 il conte Cammillo Negroni e il giovane barman Fosco Scarselli diedero vita al 'solito' (un Americano rinforzato con il gin) poi ribattezzato semplicemente Negroni." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sat Nov 23 13:15:12 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:15:12 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/22/02 7:19 PM, George Thompson wrote: > There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my wife, but O!, you > kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. (...) I was at the grocery store yesterday and walked by two employees (both men) chatting while stocking shelves. "She's a good kid," one of the speakers said, then amended after a pause: "Well, I guess she's a *woman*." I suppose "she's a good woman" wouldn't have been a possible expression of approval! mk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 19:17:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: Pinto Beans (1913) Message-ID: PINTO BEANS THE COLLEGE COURIER State College of New Mexico College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts December 1913 Volume 2, No. 1 Pg. 4, col. 2: _FOOD VALUE OF PINTO BEANS,_ _A DRY FARM CROP._ _(By S. R. Mitchell, Assistant Chemist.)_ Recent inquiries at this station for the analysis of Pinto beans and others to show the comparative food values, have resulted in the analysis and tabulation of chemical analyses of a number of different varieties of beans. The average "frijoles" contain from 22 to 24 per cent of protein, on a water-free basis. This is the most important nutrient to be considered in beans, and was consequently the only food constituent determined in the five samples of frijoles recently received by the CHemical Department for comparative analysis. "Pinto" beans, as the commercial term is applied, apparently belong to the "frijoles" group, which comprises about 30 varieties. The same so-called "pinto" bean has gone also by the name of "Rosillo," and seems to fit the description given in Bulletin No. 68, Arizone Experiment Station, for the Garaypata or Mexican tick beans. Garaypata may produce in two shades, with two different markings on each. One shade is the darker or hydrangea pink, with some shade of brown flecks or bands. The other, lighter shade, is pale flesh color, with he flecks or bands of brown. The light Pinto bean of pale flesh color with brown flecks or bands seems to be the better conditioned of the two, and from chemical examination probably of greater food value. This same variety of Pinto bean, from a number of analyses, shows from 1 to 2 per cent less protein, on the water-free basis, than a single sample of California Pink beans, or an average of American White or Navy beans; though this is a comparatively small difference in such an amount of protein, and when compared under market conditions is scarcely appreciable. When we compare the beans as they occur on the market there is a difference of only 1 per cent in protein between the average American White or Navy and a single Pinto variety, on account of the difference in moisture; and this difference may vary with different samples. The following is taken from Arizona Station bulletin No. 68, and might easily be applicable to New Mexico conditions: "Ample supply of good soil and good water and other conditions favorable, beans and teparies should yield from 300 to 1,100 pounds per acre. (...)" (For DARE, OED, MERRIAM-WEBSTER, OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, David Barnhart, whomever. DARE published 1916. They owe me beans--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: SOMEBODY PLEASE, PLEASE KILL ME (continued) NYPL OFFSITE--As I expected, all of my "pinto bean" books were offsite. The CATNYP online catalog doesn't tell you this; suppose you don't live in NYC and just have only a year or so to get a book? _One_ book of mine (the above) arrived from offsite. Where were the others? Another conference of librarians. There was no book report. I HAVE TO SUBMIT MY REQUEST AGAIN. And of course, they don't work on Saturday, and Sunday is closed, and Monday is closed, and Thursday is Thanksgiving... FRED SHAPIRO IN WILLIAM SAFIRE'S "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN THIS SUNDAY--Shapiro's quote on "material" got about five times more ink than John J. Fitz Gerald on "the Big Apple." And for that I had to wait eight years... MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG HAS LUNCH WITH A BASEBALL FREE AGENT--Two days ago, NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg has lunch with Dan Glavine, trying to recruit him for the New York Mets. It pays to be a baseball or a movie star--you get keys to the city and all that kind of stuff. It was ten years ago that I tried to get Mayor David Dinkins to send a 25-cent letter to New Orleans (the mayor, the TIMES-PICAYUNE) to share my information and to ask about any person still alive who would know information about the name of our city, "the Big Apple." The mayor was too busy then and now... From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 23 19:47:16 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:47:16 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: #I was at the grocery store yesterday and walked by two employees (both men) #chatting while stocking shelves. "She's a good kid," one of the speakers #said, then amended after a pause: "Well, I guess she's a *woman*." I suppose #"she's a good woman" wouldn't have been a possible expression of approval! And the speaker presumably thought "kid" was condescending i/t/o age. -- Mark M. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Nov 23 21:10:38 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:10:38 -0600 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? Message-ID: Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 23:54:21 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:54:21 EST Subject: German measles Message-ID: In a message dated 11/22/2002 9:24:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that > the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in > English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears > in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard > Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is > from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which > is well after the OED's first entry. This afternoon I saw Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" for the first time in 25 years. In Act IV, when Jack Worthing is replying to Lady Bracknell's questions on Cecily Cardew's pedigree, he says something like "measles, both the German and the English version" (sorry, quoting from memory). - Jim Landau (who once went by train from Victoria Station to Worthing via the Brighton Line) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Nov 24 00:06:57 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:06:57 -0500 Subject: German measles Message-ID: From Act III (the final act): "I have also in my possession, you will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; both the German and the English variety." The Importance of Being Earnest premiered in 1895. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:54 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: German measles In a message dated 11/22/2002 9:24:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that > the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in > English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears > in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard > Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is > from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which > is well after the OED's first entry. This afternoon I saw Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" for the first time in 25 years. In Act IV, when Jack Worthing is replying to Lady Bracknell's questions on Cecily Cardew's pedigree, he says something like "measles, both the German and the English version" (sorry, quoting from memory). - Jim Landau (who once went by train from Victoria Station to Worthing via the Brighton Line) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 00:12:06 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:12:06 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/20/2002 12:33:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > I had a college professor who had a related theory, that women choose their > husbands on the basis of what their married name would be Not just your professor. There is a 3-act stage play, "Luann Hamptom Laverty Oberlander" based on this theme. It is part of the "Texas Trilogy" by Preston Jones and opened on Broadway Sep 21, 1976. By the way, I once heard of a practical use for that title. At a party where charades were being performed, there was one man who boasted of his skill at charades. He looked at the slip telling him what his charade was to be, found it was "Luann Hamptom Laverty Oberlander", and didn't even try. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 01:08:29 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:08:29 EST Subject: German measles Message-ID: In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:06:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > From Act III (the final act): "I have also in my possession, you > will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, > whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; > both the German and the English variety." The Importance of Being Earnest > premiered in 1895. Thanks for the quote and the date---the only copies of "Earnest" in the coiuntry library system not currently checked out are 1) on the far side of the county or 2) in a branch that is not open on the weekends. You're probably right about Act III, but the performance I just saw split the play into 4 acts, why I don't know. - Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Nov 24 01:18:10 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:18:10 -0800 Subject: German measles Message-ID: Importance of Being Earnest, act III: Jack (very irritably):...I have also in my possession, you will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; both the German and the English variety. (1895) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 02:12:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:12:32 EST Subject: High School slang "Don't Know From Nothing" (1933) Message-ID: HIGH SCHOOL SLANG (1933) There are a few food items here, and one antedate of the RHHDAS. From the Temple University clippings files, PHILADELPHIA DAILY BULLETIN, 1 February 1933, pg. 6: _"GET OFF MY EAR"_ _MAKES 'EM SCRAM_ (...) Just in case--here's a brief vocabulary of high school slang: All creped up--All dressed up. Get off my ear; get out of my hair--Stop annoying me. Well, pick me for a sweet pea--Expression of surprise or shock. They're blowing it--Teachers are trying to see who can give out the most homework. Didn't make the climb; slipped--Left down, not promoted. Shut your garage--Close your mouth. You don't know from nothing--You're not very bright. (RHHDAS has 1934--ed.) Yowza--Yes, sir. Yea man--Yes man. I beg your stuff--I beg your pardon. Hot farina!--1933 version of "hot dog!" Put me in the jigger for a bum--Expression of lament after saying something one shouldn't. She's on the hike--Girl is making eyes at a boy (or teacher is making eyes at a teacher). He's hitch-hiking it--A boy is "strutting hi stuff" for a girl's admiration (or a teacher for a teacher's). They're ripe--Teachers are ready to spring a test. Skeedaddle; skiddle-skaddle--1933 version of scram. On the best--Teacher patrolling hall for truants. Rub it on for me--Let me copy your homework. Palooka--1933 for "sap." Fire--Very strict teacher. Airplane sandwich--Too much bread, too little filler. (A "wish" sandwich in the BLUES BROTHERS movie--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: SOMEBODY PUT ME OUT OF THIS MISERY (continued) Here's the "BLOOM SERVICE" story, from the NEW YORK POST, 22 November 2002, pg. 134: _TOAST OF THE TOWN_ _Mets, Mayor woo Glavine_ (...) Mayor Bloomberg spent 30 minutes at lunch with the free agent explaining how the Big Apple enriches the lives of its residents... (The Big Apple enriches the lives of its residents??...This was during a free lunch at the Four Seasons restaurant. Glavine was being begged to accept $30 million for three years' work. If he does sign with the New York Mets, he'll probably live, like New York's David Letterman, in Connecticut--ed.) From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Nov 24 02:12:26 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:12:26 -0600 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? Message-ID: >>From a physician's perspective, I would not expect it to be so, although if there were agricultural projects within the department, that wouldn't be surprising. I would expect things like biological devices and materials, maybe production schemes for such, computer applications (such as the chap doing the melanoma recognition research.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 05:45:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:45:14 -0500 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: There is some interest in "gummi/gummy bears" for the 100th anniversary of the "teddy bear." "Gummy bear" goes back to just 3 July 1982 on the NEW YORK TIMES database. Below are some trademarks. I'll probably go back to the Library of Congress on Monday to check on "jelly bean" and other stuff. Has anyone looked at CONFECTIONARY TRADE MARKS (1910) by Mida's trade-mark bureau of Chicago? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GUMMI-BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CANDY. FIRST USE: 19830100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75469549 Filing Date April 17, 1998 Published for Opposition September 7, 1999 Registration Number 2295317 Registration Date November 30, 1999 Owner (REGISTRANT) HARIBO OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1825 Woodlawn Drive Baltimore MARYLAND 21207 Attorney of Record MARY FRANCES LOVE Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMI-BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL SWEDISH MILK CHOCOLATE COVERED GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONS AND CHOCOLATES. FIRST USE: 19820000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820000 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030116 030124 030126 Serial Number 76455308 Filing Date October 1, 2002 Owner (APPLICANT) Cloetta Fazer AB CORPORATION SWEDEN 590 69 Ljungsbro SWEDEN Attorney of Record Robert A. Rowan Section 44 Indicator SECT44 Priority Date July 4, 2002 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: VARIOUS SOFT CANDIES OF DIFFERENT FLAVORS AND COLORS, INCLUDING GUMMY BEARS. FIRST USE: 19830823. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830823 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030124 210111 Serial Number 73485901 Filing Date June 18, 1984 Published for Opposition July 23, 1985 Registration Number 1386950 Registration Date March 18, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) FOREIGN CANDY COMPANY, INC., THE CORPORATION IOWA 451 BLACK FOREST ROAD HULL IOWA 51239 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record HARRY J. WATSON Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 05:54:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:54:44 -0500 Subject: Balloon Safari (1961 or 1963) Message-ID: I'll be going on a "balloon safari" (Not recorded in OED? The things I do for etymology!) in Africa this Christmas. I was told that the one I'm going on was the "first" balloon safari, and that it started in 1975. OCLC WorldCat appears to show that that "first" claim is filled with hot air: Flight of the lost balloon Marshall Thompson; Mala Powers; James Lampier 1961 English Visual Material : Motion picture : Film 3 film reels (91 min.) : sd., col.; 16 mm. [S.l.] : Woolner-Marquette-Juran Pictures, The vast and ancient treasure of Cleopatra is the object of a safari that flies by hydrogen-filled balloon to the headwaters of the Nile. But the path to fortune is strewn with obstacles like condors that attack the balloon, a power mad Hindu and his natives out to get the fortune for themselves and wild animals. Ownership: : 0 More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: Flight of the lost balloon Author(s): Thompson, Marshall,; 1925- ; Powers, Mala,; 1931- ; Lampier, James. Publication: [S.l.] :; Woolner-Marquette-Juran Pictures, Year: 1961 Description: 3 film reels (91 min.) :; sd., col.;; 16 mm. Language: English Abstract: The vast and ancient treasure of Cleopatra is the object of a safari that flies by hydrogen-filled balloon to the headwaters of the Nile. But the path to fortune is strewn with obstacles like condors that attack the balloon, a power mad Hindu and his natives out to get the fortune for themselves and wild animals. SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Hot air balloons. Treasure-trove. Note(s): Participants: Marshall Thompson, Mala Powers, James Lamphier. Class Descriptors: Dewey: 813.5 Responsibility: Producer, Bernard Woolner; director, story and screenplay, Nathan Juran; executive director, Jacques Marquette. Material Type: Projected image (pgr); Film (mot) Document Type: Visual Material Entry: 19830829 Update: 20020705 Accession No: OCLC: 9859235 Database: WorldCat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jambo, African balloon safari / Anthony Smith 1963 English Book 272 p. : ill. (part col.) map. ; 22 cm. New York : Dutton, Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries that Own Item: 245 More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: Jambo, African balloon safari / Author(s): Smith, Anthony, 1926- Publication: New York : Dutton, Year: 1963 Description: 272 p. : ill. (part col.) map. ; 22 cm. Language: English Standard No: LCCN: 63-9852 SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Balloon ascensions. Geographic: Africa -- Description and travel -- Aerial. Note(s): "Published in England under the title of Throw out two hands." Class Descriptors: LC: TL620.S58; Dewey: 916.76 Responsibility: Anthony Smith. Document Type: Book Entry: 19830818 Update: 19940517 Accession No: OCLC: 9822776 Database: WorldCat From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Nov 24 05:51:34 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:51:34 -0800 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) In-Reply-To: <3174537F.1A6710FD.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: gummi bears have been available for only 20 years? that's surprising. were 'gummi bears' really the first instance of 'gummi'? perhaps the firm sold other gummi products before making the bears available? I think of the current proliferation of all things gummi - worms, berries and other forms. did anything pre-date the bears? sincerely, Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: November 23, 2002 9:45 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) There is some interest in "gummi/gummy bears" for the 100th anniversary of the "teddy bear." "Gummy bear" goes back to just 3 July 1982 on the NEW YORK TIMES database. Below are some trademarks. I'll probably go back to the Library of Congress on Monday to check on "jelly bean" and other stuff. Has anyone looked at CONFECTIONARY TRADE MARKS (1910) by Mida's trade-mark bureau of Chicago? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GUMMI-BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CANDY. FIRST USE: 19830100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75469549 Filing Date April 17, 1998 Published for Opposition September 7, 1999 Registration Number 2295317 Registration Date November 30, 1999 Owner (REGISTRANT) HARIBO OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1825 Woodlawn Drive Baltimore MARYLAND 21207 Attorney of Record MARY FRANCES LOVE Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMI-BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL SWEDISH MILK CHOCOLATE COVERED GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONS AND CHOCOLATES. FIRST USE: 19820000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820000 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030116 030124 030126 Serial Number 76455308 Filing Date October 1, 2002 Owner (APPLICANT) Cloetta Fazer AB CORPORATION SWEDEN 590 69 Ljungsbro SWEDEN Attorney of Record Robert A. Rowan Section 44 Indicator SECT44 Priority Date July 4, 2002 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: VARIOUS SOFT CANDIES OF DIFFERENT FLAVORS AND COLORS, INCLUDING GUMMY BEARS. FIRST USE: 19830823. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830823 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030124 210111 Serial Number 73485901 Filing Date June 18, 1984 Published for Opposition July 23, 1985 Registration Number 1386950 Registration Date March 18, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) FOREIGN CANDY COMPANY, INC., THE CORPORATION IOWA 451 BLACK FOREST ROAD HULL IOWA 51239 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record HARRY J. WATSON Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 06:15:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:15:11 -0500 Subject: Gummy the Turtle (1981) Message-ID: More "gummy" research. Here's a trademarked "gummy turtle" (1981): Word Mark GUMMY THE TURTLE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Frozen Confections. FIRST USE: 19811230. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19811230 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73346537 Filing Date January 21, 1982 Published for Opposition August 30, 1983 Owner (APPLICANT) Southland Corporation, The CORPORATION TEXAS 2828 N. Haskell Dallas TEXAS 75221 Attorney of Record Joseph B. Bowman Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 30, 1984 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 06:43:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:43:00 -0500 Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) Message-ID: I'm doing my best on American candy research, by gum! Word Mark YUMMI-GUMMI GOONIE'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Candy. FIRST USE: 19810600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73447247 Filing Date October 7, 1983 Published for Opposition March 12, 1985 Registration Number 1337003 Registration Date May 21, 1985 Owner (REGISTRANT) Brock Candy Company CORPORATION TENNESSEE 1113 Chestnut St. Chattanooga TENNESSEE 37402 Attorney of Record B. Parker Livingston Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1991 From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Nov 24 06:57:16 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:57:16 -0800 Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) In-Reply-To: <4B283360.288D89CA.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: one wonders that a Goonie looked like, or tasted like. what is the origin of the word? nothing appetizing now, or even then - given the current status of the word mark and live/dead indicator -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: November 23, 2002 10:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) I'm doing my best on American candy research, by gum! Word Mark YUMMI-GUMMI GOONIE'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Candy. FIRST USE: 19810600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73447247 Filing Date October 7, 1983 Published for Opposition March 12, 1985 Registration Number 1337003 Registration Date May 21, 1985 Owner (REGISTRANT) Brock Candy Company CORPORATION TENNESSEE 1113 Chestnut St. Chattanooga TENNESSEE 37402 Attorney of Record B. Parker Livingston Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1991 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 07:52:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:50 -0500 Subject: Hasenpfeffer mit Spatzle; Lebkuchen (1889) Message-ID: One more food antedate before I call it a night. OED has 1892 for "hasenpfeffer" and 1933 for "spatzle." This Landau person has posted here on the latter, before he got the "German measles." There is a lot of food in this item, so it's long. "Lebkuchen" is at the beginning, and two "hasenpfeffer" hits at the end. From the HARPER'S WEEKLY online database: Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912 This marks the beginning of page 314 from the 04-20-1889 issue of Harper's Weekly. This marks the beginning of Column 1 (...) Being thus encouraged, Gottlieb bought the honey forthwith; and with Aunt Hedwig's zealous assistance set about boiling it and straining it and kneading it into a sticky dough, all in accord- ance with the wise old baker's directions that he so long had trea- sured in his mind. And when the dough was packed in earthen pots, over which bladders were tied, all the pots were set away in the coolest part of the cellar, as far from the great oven as pos- sible, that the precious honey-cake might undergo that subtle change which only comes with time. For at least a year must pass before the honey-cake really can be said to be good at all; and the longer that it remains in the pots, even until five-and-twenty years, the better does it become. Therefore it is that all makers of lebkuchen who aspire to become famous professors of the craft add each year to their stock of honey-cake, yet draw always from the oldest pots a time-soaked dough that ever grows more precious in its sweet excellence of age. Thus large sums -- more hundreds of dollars than a young baker, just starting upon his farinacious career, would dare to dream of -- may be invested; and the old rich bakers who can dower their daughters with many honey-pots know that in the matter of sons-in-law they have but to pick and choose. It was about Christmas-time -- which is the proper time for this office -- that Gottlieb made his first honey-cake; and it was a little before the Christmas following that his first lebkuchen was baked. For a whole week before this portentous event occurred he was in a nervous tremor; by day he scarcely slept; as he sat beside the oven at night his pipe so frequently went out that twice, hav- ing thus lost track of time, his baking of bread came near to be- ing toast. And when at last the fateful night arrived that saw his first batch of lebkuchen in the oven, he actually forgot to smoke at all! Gottlieb had but a sorry Christmas that year. The best that even Aunt Hedwig could say of his lebkuchen was that it was not bad. Herr Sohnstein, to be sure, brazenly declared that it was delicious; but Gottlieb remembered that Herr Sohnstein, who con- ducted a flourishing practice in the criminal courts, was trained in the art of romantic deviations from the truth whenever it was necessary to put a good face on a bad cause; and he observed sadly that the notary's teeth were at variance with his tongue, for the piece of lebkuchen that Herr Sohnstein ate was infinitessi- mally small. As for the regular German customers of the bakery, they simply bit one single bite and then refused to buy. Indeed, but for the children from St. Bridget's School -- who, being for the most part boys, and Irish boys at that, presumably could eat any- thing -- it is not impossible that that first baking of lebkuchen might have remained uneaten even until this present day. And it was due mainly to the stout stomachs of successive generations of these enterprising boys that the series of experiments that Gott- lieb then began in the making of lebkuchen was brought, in the course of years, to something like a satisfactory conclusion. But even at its best, never was this lebkuchen at all like that of which in his hopeful youth he had dreamed. Herr Sohnstein, to be sure, spoke highly of it, and even man- aged to eat of it quite considerable quantities. Gottlieb did not imagine that Herr Sohnstein could have in this matter any ulterior motives; but Aunt Hedwig much more than half suspected that in order to please her by pleasing her brother he was making a sacrifice of his stomach to his heart. If this theory had any foun- dation in fact, it is certain that Herr Sohnstein did not apprecia- bly profit by his gallant risk of indigestion; for while Aunt Hed- wig by no means seemed disposed to shatter all his hopes by a sharp refusal, she gave no indication whatever of any intention to permit her ripe red lips to utter the longed-for word of assent. Aunt Hedwig, unquestionably, was needlessly cruel in her treat- ment of Herr Sohnstein, and he frequently told her so. Some- times he would ask her, with a fine irony, if she meant to keep him waiting for his answer until her brother had made lebkuchen as good as the lebkuchen of Nürnberg? To which invariably she would reply that, in the first place, she did not know of any question that he ever had asked her that required an answer; and, in the second place, that she did mean to keep him waiting just precisely that long. And then she would add, with a delicate drollery that was all her own, that whenever he got tired of wait- ing he might hire a whole horse-car all to himself and ride right away. Ah, this Aunt Hedwig had a funny way with her! And so the years slipped by; and little Minna, who laughed at the passing years as merrily as Aunt Hedwig laughed at Herr Sohnstein, grew up into a blithe, trig, round maiden, and ceased to be little Minna at all. She was her mother over again, Gottlieb said; but this was not by any means true. She did have her mo- ther's goodness and sweetness, but her sturdy body bespoke her father's stronger strain. Aunt Hedwig, of this same strain, undis- guisedly was stocky. Minna was only comfortably stout, with good broad shoulders, and an honest round waist that anybody with half an eye for waists could see would be a satisfactory arm- ful. And she had also Aunt Hedwig's constant cheeriness. All day long her laugh sounded happily through the house, or her voice went blithely in happy talk, or, failing anybody to talk to, trilled out some scrap of a sweet old German song. The two apprentices and the young man who drove the bread-wagon of course were wildly and desperately in love with her -- a tender passion that they dared not disclose to its object, but that they frequently and boastingly aired to each other. Naturally these interchanges of confidence were apt to be somewhat tempestuous. As the result of one of them, when the elder apprentice had declared that Min- na's beautiful brown hair was finer than any wig in the window of the hair-dresser on the west side of the square, and that she had given him a lock of it, and when the young man who drove the bread-wagon (he was a profane young man) had declared that it was a verdammter sight finer than any wig, and that she hadn't -- the elder apprentice got a dreadful black eye, and the younger ap- This marks the beginning of Column 2 prentice was almost smothered in the dough-trough, and the young man who drove the bread-wagon had his head broken with the peel that was broken over it. Aunt Hedwig did not need to be told, nor did Minna, the little jade, the cause of this direful com- bat; and both of these amiable women thought Gottlieb very hard- hearted because he charged the broken peel -- it was a new one -- and the considerable amount of dough that was wasted by stick- ing to the younger apprentice's person, against the wages of the three combatants. This reference to the apprentices and to the wagon shows that Gottlieb's bakery no longer was a small bakery, but a large one. In the making of lebkuchen, it is true, he had not prospered; but in all other ways he had prospered amazingly. From Avenue A over to the East River, and from far below Tompkins Square clear away to the upper regions of Lexington Avenue, the young man who drove the bread-wagon rattled along every morning as hard as ever he could go, and he vowed and declared, this young man did, that nothing but his love for Minna kept him in a place where all the year round he was compelled in every single day to do the work of two. Meanwhile the little shop on East Fourth Street had been abandoned for a bigger shop, and this, in turn, for one still bigger -- quite a palace of a shop, with plate-glass windows -- on Avenue B. It was here, beginning in a modest way with a couple of tables whereat chance hungry people might sit while they ate zwieback or a thick slice of hearty pumpernickel and drank a glass of milk, that a restaurant was established as a tender to the bakery. It did not set out to be a large restaurant, and in fact never became one. In the back part of the shop were a dozen tables, covered with oil-cloth and decorated with red napkins, and at these tables, under the especial direction of Aunt Hedwig, who was a culinary genius, was served a limited, but from a German stand-point most toothsome, bill of fare. There was Hasenpfeffer mit Spätzle, and Sauerbraten mit Kartoffelklösse, and Rindfleisch mit Meerrettig, and Bratwurst mit Rothkraut; and Aunt Hedwig made delicious coffee, and the bakery of course provided all man- ner of sweet cakes. In the summer-time they did a famous busi- ness in ice-cream. On the plate-glass windows, beneath the sweeping curve of white letters in which the name of the owner of the bakery was set forth was added in smaller letters the words "Café Nürnberger." Gott- lieb and Aunt Hedwig and the man who made the sign (this last, however, for the venal reason that more letters would be required) had stood out stoutly for the honest German "Kaffehaus"; but Minna, whose tastes were refined, had insisted upon the use of the French word: there was more style about it, she said. And this was a case in which style was wedded to substantial excellence. What with the good things which Gottlieb baked and the good things which Aunt Hedwig cooked, the Café Nürnberger presently acquired a somewhat enviable reputation. It became even a re- sort of the aristocracy, in this case represented by the dwellers in the handsome houses on the eastern and northern sides of Tomp- kins Square. Of winter evenings, when bright gas-light and a big glowing stove made the restaurant a very cozy place indeed, large parties of these aristocrats would drop in on their way home from the Thalia Theatre, and would stuff themselves with Hasenpfeffer and Sauerbraten and Kartoffelklösse, and swig Aunt Hedwig's strong coffee (out of cups big enough and thick enough to have served as shells and been fired from a mortar), until it would seem as though they must certainly crack their aristocratic skins. (...) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Nov 24 15:24:37 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:24:37 -0500 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date Barry cites. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sun Nov 24 16:48:20 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:48:20 +0100 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: The gummi bear is much older. I personally saw them in Sweden as a child around 1940. See http://www.oberberg-online.de/~carsten.kuehn/baerinfo.htm "Wer hat das Gummibärchen erfunden? Ein junger Ingenieur hatte 1922 die süße Idee, Minibärchen zum Naschen herzustellen. Er schmiedete eine Form und füllte sie mit Fruchtgummimasse. Sein Name ist Hans Riegel aus Bonn. Das Goldbärchen ist mittlerweile schon 75 Jahre alt. Damals war es noch ein bißchen größer und dicker als heute." On http://nosferatu.cas.usf.edu/german/essen/#Gummibear you can find out how many gummi bears survived the Titanic sinking. The Gummibär seems to be very popular in Germany - Google gives 2300 hits. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) > I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then > 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she > started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German > ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date > Barry cites. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sun Nov 24 17:00:50 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:00:50 +0100 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: HAns RIegel in BOnn set up a company, HARIBO, and his son is now one of Germany's richest men. "In 1982 HARIBO made the leap across the ocean to set up its own sales organization in the US. HARIBO had previously been importing various products through US distributors but in 1982 the time was ripe for a separate HARIBO organization" says Haribo USA's home page http://www.haribo.de/usa/index.html "HARIBO of America, Inc. initially imported mainly licorice items along with several international favorites like the Gold-Bears into the US market." So the name ought to have been known in the US, not only through returning GIs. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) > I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then > 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she > started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German > ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date > Barry cites. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Nov 24 17:07:00 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:07:00 -0800 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My experience with the field is somewhat oblique, coming at it from a biological weapons/arms control perspective, but I would not immediately associate "Biological Engineering" with agriculture (nor would I differentiate between that and "bio-engineering"). Although, with a moment's thought it becomes obvious that agriculture would be a major consumer of biological engineering research. A quick Google search turns up any number of "Agriculture & Biological Engineering" departments and programs at universities. And looking at some others that don't include "agriculture" in the title (like MIT), the focus is broader, encompassing medical and other applications. So it doesn't appear as if the term "Biological Engineering" on its own implies an agricultural focus. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gerald Cohen > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:11 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to > agriculture? > > > Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. > "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an > agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical > Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program > in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would > "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? > > I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; > but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the > subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. > > Gerald Cohen > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 18:36:13 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:36:13 EST Subject: "Oke" "Smoothie" "Lays an Egg" (1929) Message-ID: This is another article that I copied from the Temple University Urban Archives clippings files on slang. There are mostly second citations here, such as for "hop a gut" and "sticking one's neck out," but those are still important. "Oke" is certainly of interest. "Lay an egg" is in line with our famous "Wall Street Lays an Egg" headline of later this year (1929). The RHHDAS has 1934 for "cream." Add "smoothie" to my other citations...Notice "toughie" rather than "jock"...The University of Pennsylvania's PUNCH BOWL is useful for slang, and it possibly will have an early "hoagie" as well, at least in advertisements. I'll go back to Philly if anyone wants...I apologize in advance for typing mistakes. From the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, 16 June 1929: _U. OF P. MEN "CHISEL"_ _GIRLS FROM ESCORT_ _Students "Hop a Gut" When_ _They Pick Easy Courses,_ _College Slang Reveals_ _"Toughies Cream" Foes,_ _While Others Hide Lady_ _Friends From "Smoothies"_ The "toughie" is the halfback who carries the ball over the goal line with a minute to play, the man to lean on when the riot call is turned in. The "softie" does not care for the rough game of football, lets his studies occupy much of his time at college and does not drink, smoke or swear. These two characters belong to the latest collection of collegiate slang, as compiled by an anonymous writer in The Punch Bowl, monthly magazine at the University of Pennsylvania. In the same category is the "smoothie," a college man who has something which is difficult to describe. Whatever it is, he has it; and, the article goes on to say, "when one is entertaining a young lady it is always well to avoid a 'smoothie,' lest he try to 'smooth' 'em up :Occasionally there comes a rare genius who beneath the polished exterior may boast an arm of iron. Then we have the rare "toughie-smoothie" combination, not unlike a stick of dynamite in a platinum case." An essential part of the "toughie's" vocabulary is the verb "to cream." This verb has synonyms which make its meaning plain: To "knock cold," to "cool," to "beat up on" and to "take." It may be used in connection with anything which the speaker dislikes and is often applied to certain examinations. A thing or a person which has been "creamed" has been successfully treated in a violent manner. "To 'wolf' or to 'chisel' is to poach on what one should consider sacred to one's neighbor," says the writer. "Usually it refers to the depradations committed by a stag at a prom at the expense of a man who is entertaining a young lady. To set with the prupose of doing some 'high-class wolfing' is a plan with malice aforethought to lure some alluring female from the protection of her official escort." The roommate, in the newest slang, is still "the wife," while a "babe" is any beautiful dumb young lady introduced to the campus. The word "wet" still embraces anything that does not meet with approval. Applied to an undergraduate, it is a fighting word, unless accompanied by a smile. To "be laid an egg" is the sad fate of one who has been completely crushed, outwitted, defeated. To threaten "to get on the ball" indicates a determination to undertake a persistent effort along any line. Speaking scholastically, it is considered better to say "pound the books" or "study 'em up." To "stick out one's neck" is to commit an unpardonable error, to lay one's self open to criticism, usually that of being "wet," according to this vocabulary. A persistent offender should "wise up." As in non-collegiate circles, the ponderous O. K. has given way to the snappier "oke." There is a sonorous note about this expression, the compiler says, which has made its vogue immense. Among the elite slangsters, in fact, it has almost completely ousted older expressions. "Hopping a gut" is the quaint expression used when a student elects an easy course. When the course proves otherwise than easy, it is said to have "back-fired." A "racket" means any plan, subject or project. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:05:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:05:44 EST Subject: Aufschnit Message-ID: Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? It's not in the OED CD-ROM. My best description is that it is a cross between bologna and souse, that it, a bologna-like sausage with pieces of unsausaged meat in it, and tastes better than generic bologna. The aufschnit I met was glatt kosher and therefore beef. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:13:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:13:50 -0500 Subject: Jelly Bean (1899) Message-ID: From "pinto bean" to "jelly bean" this weekend. OED and everyone else has 1905. Is there a New Orleans "jelly bean" origin? Or is it from Chicago, as the 1905 citation has? I'll check the CHICAGO TRIBUNE when that goes online. From the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL (American Periodical Series online), January 1899, pg. 12, col. 1: _"LAGNAPPE" IN NEW ORLEANS_ (...) "I don't want no jelly beans; I want some o' them fruit tablets." Then, indeed, the worm turns, and the druggist declines to give expensive candies as lagnappe with a five-cent purchase. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:51:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:51:50 -0500 Subject: In the Red (1922); In the Black (1923) Message-ID: THE NEW YORKER magazine has turned a profit. It's throwing an "In the Black" party. Black jelly beans are being served. (O.T.: I should be in the NEW YORKER! I did "New Yorker"! "In the Black"! "Jelly Beans"!) ProQuest Historical newspapers has full text of both the NEW YORK TIMES and WALL STREET JOURNAL. I searched for "in the black" & "profit" and "in the red" & "loss." The RHHDAS has "in the black" from the NEW YORK TIMES of March 11, 1928. For "in the red," you're told to see the RHHDAS volume that has "RED." (The RHHDAS stops at the letter "O.") IN THE RED 21 April 1922, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 9: Automatically, gas department ceased operating "in the red." Profits replaced losses and gas business again took up it proportionate burden of meeting divdend checks. IN THE BLACK 2 February 1923, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 13: Carter, Macy is now making satisfactory profits. Amsinck is operating in the black. So is Pacific Mail which will probably show some $250,000 earned in 1922. RED AND BLACK 20 September 1924, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 1: _RED AND BLACK_ Naturally the cold months of the year show red ink figures for the American Ice Co. It has been known in the history of the ice business that the company has been 10 months in the black and then again this has dwindled to six months. This year, owing to its unseasonal qualities, has probably seen a larger period in the red, but it has been pointed out that once the demand for ice reached summer proportions, profits instantly became very large, and so it has been this year, although it is not likely, owing to an unseaonable summer, that the company's final earnings will be as high as they were last year, when $12.52 was earned on the common stock. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 00:49:06 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:49:06 -0500 Subject: Butties and Fish & Chips (TIMES of London, 1968) Message-ID: The TIMES (London) online has expanded its coverage a bit, but it's still not finished. It doesn't have anything before about 1920 online yet, it appears. Wait a bit longer for that "German measles" antedate. I tried the database a few weeks ago for some Maltese food names, but came up empty. I tried again with "butties" and "sarnies." I got some awful mis-matches ("salaries" for "sarnies"). This is from the TIMES OF LONDON, 27 September 1968, pg. 2, col. F: _Century of Fish and Chips_ (...) The air was thick with memories of butties and cod, and Wallies (pickled gherkins to the barbarian). (...) For another, there was a rebel from Lancashire present, who protested noisily throughout that Lee's Chipped Potato Restaurant in Mossley is in fact the oldest fish and chip shop still in the business, with records going back to 1863. In sober fact, the history of who first though of joining together fish and chips is obscure and complicated. Academics are still locked in bitter argument on this crucial question. Joseph Malin, it is true, founded a business in Bow in 1860, but he did not sell chips with his fish until 1865. (...) (OED doesn't have this meaning of "butties"?--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 25 01:16:41 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:16:41 -0500 Subject: what language? Message-ID: Today at a collectibles show I saw a product (a Smurfs display box, if you must know) labeled in four languages. "I'" = capital I-acute. All the text was uppercase. TODOS ESTAMOS AQUI' TOTS SOMS* AQUI' GUZTIOK HEMEN GAUDE TODOS ESTAMOS EIQUI (* SOMS I think: I can't read my own notes) The product was made in Barcelona, and the first two languages are certainly Spanish and Catalan. I'm sure the third is Basque. But what is the fourth? Obviously Ibero-Romance, but not Portuguese, which would have AQUI. Is it Galician? BTW, all the unaccented I's are dotted, even though all this text is in capital letters. (I hope I haven't sent this query in already; I'm feeling absent-minded this evening.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 02:51:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:51:32 -0500 Subject: Vareniky, Batvinia (1828) Message-ID: "Vareniki" (or "vareniky") the Ukrainian dumplings, is not in OED. The following is from the American Periodical Series online. It's taken in turn from the LONDON LITERARY GAZETTE, September 6 (1828). The book cited in the article is ST. PETERSBURGH: A JOURNAL OF TRAVELS TO AND FROM THAT CAPITAL, THROUGH FLANDERS, THE RHENISH PROVINCES, PRUSSIA, RUSSIA, POLAND, SIBERIA, SAXONY, THE CONFEDERATED STATES OF GERMANY AND FRANCE, by A. B. Granville. The article begins "As these volumes are not yet in circulation...." For some reason, I didn't go through this book. Maybe it wasn't on the shelf? The 1828 edition that's supposed to be on the shelf here at Columbia University isn't here. From CASKET, February 1829, pg. 9: The first commends to your attention a little _vareniky_; the second, finding that you have already before you a dish of _stchy_, brings round the _rastingay_, or oblong pastry to eat with it. (...) But apropos of _vareniky_! It is a dish of which many are very fond, made of a thin paste of buck-wheat flour, not baked, having fresh cream-cheese inside, melted butter thrown over it, and eaten with sour cream. Yet this heterogeneous kind of fare is nothing compared to another called _batvinia_, which is, indeed, the king of the ollas, as may be judged from the emuneration of its ingredients, which are as follows: kvass, (the vehicle,) kislistchi, salt-fish, craw-fish, spinage, salt-cucumbers, and onions. These form a mixture (a mixture with a vengeance!) which is used and served up with a piece of ice in the middle. When the late Emperor ALexander, who is said to have been very fond of this national dish, was at the congress of Vienna, he ordered it to be presented ata dinner at which the corps diplomatique had been invited; and turning to a noble and military lord, more remarkable for blunt straight forwardness than Machiavelian diplomacy, asked him how he found the _batvinia_. "Je le trouve detestable! Sire," was the answer.--But the fish! Oh, thefish is delectable at St. Petersburgh! They have no cod and no turbot, but commend me to the _sterlet_, the soveriegn fish for the table, and to the _soudak_, and to the _sieg_, and to the _yersche_, and the _kilky_, and so on to the end of a long list; but of these more anon, when I shall introduce to the notice of my readers the fish-markets of St. Petersburgh. (...) This proved a complete lesson to me on Russian cookery. By way of gaining personal experience I tasted of every thing, and took down the name of all that I tasted; the result of which was, that I got a list of dishes, and an indigestion from eating them. Figure to yourself, gentle reader, the state in which Dr. Paris's cauldron must have been with _stchy_ and _borsch_ soups, the one with cabbage, the other with fermented beet root; rastingai and crouglo pirrog (a patty with fowl, and eggs;) stewed sterlet; quails slowly roasted in a stew-pan, and covered with thick sour cream, stewed pork with mushrooms and truffles; _jelinottes_ and white asparagus; kascha and kascha pudding; _fromage_, _caviar_, _compotes_, sweet wines, and draughts of _kwass_, or _kislistchi_, the former being a species of brewed fermented liquor, prepared from rye-flour and barley malt, of which the latter is a strong effervescent variety; fancy, I say, all this safely lodged within the parites of a single stomach, and think, oh think, of the night that must have followed! (I'm thinking that someone should invent Pepto Bismol--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 03:55:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:55:47 -0500 Subject: Brown Betty (1840, or Yale 1864); Jelly Beans (1903) Message-ID: BROWN BETTY DARE's first citation of "brown betty" is the YALE LITERARY MAGAZINE of 1864. (Hot dogs, brown betty--clearly, those Yale people are well fed. Even today, according to that WALL STREET JOURNAL article.) Horseracing gave us several by the name of "Black Maria." There was at least one "Brown Betty," but this cite appears to involve the British courses. From AMERICAN TURF REGISTER AND SPORTING MAGAZINE (American Periodicals Series online), July 1840, pg. 329: The particulars recorded of this trial establish its truth and authenticity: three horses came to the post, Childers carrying 9st. 2lbs., and Almanzor and Brown Betty carrying 8st. 2lb. each. --------------------------------------------------------------- JELLY BEANS (continued) Another citation before OED's 1905 is this one, from the Gerritsen Collection Online. From "An Evening at Helen's" in THE YOUNG WOMAN'S MAGAZINE, August 1903, pg. 343: Helen: (...) Sandwiches! Apples for sure this time. (_Opens a smaller bag._) Jelly beans! Who thought of the candy? Winnie (_pompously_): I had the great brain. Helen (_gratefully_): Bless you, my child. Why didn't you get chocolates? Winnie: There's gratitude for you! Simply because I wanted to see if you'd know beans. Helen: They didn't have chocolates? Winnie: Yes, they did. I didn't have money. Helen: How much did the jelly beans cost? Winnie: Fifteen cents. And you'd eat three times as many chocolates as jelly beans. So I bought jelly beans. (_Pats herself on the head._) Great head! Gladys: What a wife you'll make for some man! (A WIFE WHO DOESN'T BRING CHOCOLATE??--ed.) From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Mon Nov 25 05:24:06 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:24:06 -0800 Subject: Aufschnit In-Reply-To: <181.126bb535.2b12b548@aol.com> Message-ID: Aufschnit is a combination of different meat slices...like a variety pack from the butcher. If you order it with ham, it costs extra. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 3:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Aufschnit Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? It's not in the OED CD-ROM. My best description is that it is a cross between bologna and souse, that it, a bologna-like sausage with pieces of unsausaged meat in it, and tastes better than generic bologna. The aufschnit I met was glatt kosher and therefore beef. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 14:19:28 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:19:28 EST Subject: "Bush's Daughters Moderately Higher" Message-ID: Not really relevant for ADS-L, but too good not to quote. The way AOL News flashes its headlines, it is easy to start reading a headline, miss the transition, and finish reading in the next headline. Today offered an exceptionally good example (recalling that the Presidential daughters have been in trouble for underage drinking): The two headlines in question were Bush's Daughters Celebrate Birthday Stocks Moderately Higher - Jim Landau From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 25 14:22:24 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:22:24 -0500 Subject: what language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > TODOS ESTAMOS EIQUI I think it can be Galician. Galician Web-sites often use "eiqui", although the only Galician dictionary I have immediately available shows "aqui". At the bottom of this Galician page under "erros habituais" under "E" there is "eiqui" with its 'correct' standard form "aqui": http://www.galizacig.com/ficheiros/html/normaliza/normaliza.htm The word "eiqui" also seems to appear in the same sense in Asturo-Leonese/Miranda dialects on the Web, so maybe it could also be Mirandese or something like that. Here is a Leonese page with a link labeled "[calca] eiqui" at the foot: http://personales.com/espana/zamora/furmientu/llengua.htm ... maybe Galician would be more likely. -- Doug Wilson From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 25 14:46:42 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:46:42 -0500 Subject: Aufschnit Message-ID: The German means "a slice" -- a sliver of cold cuts -- but if it's similar to the use of the word "schnitzel" for a specific slice (weiner, of veal, pariser, of pork), it would depend on the culture. In Yiddish or Yinglish it mighht mean "the customary slice of cold cuts" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 25 14:53:32 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:53:32 -0500 Subject: what language? Message-ID: Just a guess--Occitan? The people living on the French side of the Pyrenees think of their variety as a separate language. Some people remember the Second Crusade (which wiped out the Albigensian heresy and established northern French in the SW) will a great deal of bitterness. Driving into Toulouse on the main highway to the mountains the name of the city has been painted over and "Tolosa"--the Occitan name--has been substituted. Putting Occitan on the label of a product would broadcast sympathy for the distinctness of the langue d'oc culture. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Mon Nov 25 15:21:20 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:21:20 -0500 Subject: Herr Michael Jackson, dummkopf Message-ID: On the weekend, NPR had a sound clip of a woman from the Goethe Institute saying a new German word that, apparently, meant something like "fear and regret because of holding your kid over a balcony for the press." I've only the seen the transcript of the show, which doesn't include the German word. Did anyone hear it, or does anyone know what the word is? Thanks. Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 15:50:23 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:50:23 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: At last the big September issue of the ADS newsletter is available online. Go to our website http://www.americandialect.org/ and you'll find its 28 pages available as a pdf download. It announces in detail the program of the January Annual Meeting in Atlanta, remembers Allen Walker Read and Donald Lance, tells about the new DARE Volume 4 and invites help with items for Volume 5, lists our members, gives abstracts of papers presented at regional meetings, announces new books by ADS members, and reminds readers of the Dec. 1 deadline for proposals for next May's Dictionary Society meeting at Duke University. Hard copies are being created by the printer and should go out to members by first-class mail later this week. I apologize for the lateness. - Allan Metcalf From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:03:13 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:03:13 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: In a message dated 11/25/02 10:51:17 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes: << At last the big September issue of the ADS newsletter is available online. Go to our website http://www.americandialect.org/ and you'll find its 28 pages available as a pdf download. It announces in detail the program of the January Annual Meeting in Atlanta, remembers Allen Walker Read and Donald Lance, tells about the new DARE Volume 4 and invites help with items for Volume 5, lists our members, gives abstracts of papers presented at regional meetings, announces new books by ADS members, and reminds readers of the Dec. 1 deadline for proposals for next May's Dictionary Society meeting at Duke University. Hard copies are being created by the printer and should go out to members by first-class mail later this week. I apologize for the lateness. - Allan Metcalf >> As of this moment it is not up yet. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:16:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:16:11 EST Subject: In the Red (1922); In the Black (1923) Message-ID: There is an old story about the famous accountant who had a ritual that baffled his colleagues. Every morning when he came to his office he would unlock a desk drawer, glance inside, close the drawer, and lock it again. Finally the accountant died and his colleagues broke into his desk, to discover that inside the locked drawer there was nothing except a slip of paper on which was written "Debits are entered in RED ink." From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:42:59 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:42:59 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: Dear Ron, << As of this moment it is not up yet. >> That's puzzling, because I checked it myself before announcing it. Looking at the "Current News" page, which is the home page, I read <> I hope there isn't some glitch that allows only me to find this. Best wishes - Allan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 17:07:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:07:29 -0500 Subject: Missouri-Show Me (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress. They don't officially subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST. Send your queries now. HOT DOG 13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged grievances. (Whew! That's close!--ed.) WINDY CITY 13 July 1887, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2. (Not close--ed.) BIG APPLE 20 September 1924, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2: SPOT CASH a two-time winner around the big apple... (A horse-racing column. Fitz Gerald's brother wrote for the WASHINGTON POST. Pretty darn close--ed.) MISSOURI--SHOW ME 9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 27: _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._ _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._ >From the Philadelphia Times. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me." That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou. (Cut about seven paragraphs to end of story. I believe this article is our earliest and pre-dates the Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha and the song, both in 1897--ed.) "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped. I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 17:22:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:22:32 -0500 Subject: Sloppy Joe--From Buffalo? (1958 WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: The first citation for "sloppy joe" and "sandwich" is 5 September 1958, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C6: _"Sloppy Joes"_ _Just as Good_ _After the Bell_ BARBECUED beef served in toasted buns is a popular sandwich filling. In a Buffalo, N. Y. high school, for example, this type of sandwich is called Sloppy Joes, and pupils ask their mothers to duplicate the specialty at home. (...)(Recipes follow--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 25 18:09:07 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: Aufschnit In-Reply-To: <181.126bb535.2b12b548@aol.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? This looks like the German "Aufschnitt" which I believe is conventional and virtually equivalent to US English "cold cuts". http://www.walter-schaller.de/german/aufschn.htm http://www.sign-lang.uni-hamburg.de/HLEX/Konzepte/L1/L153.htm http://www.partyservice-rusch.de/Aufschnitt_Platten/aufschnitt_platten.html -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Nov 25 18:36:41 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:36:41 -0500 Subject: Pine Ridge (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST) In-Reply-To: <7FC97CEC.1DD4159D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm skeptical about the Pine Ridge food feast. Could the Post writer have had his tongue in cheek? Barry, can you send me the full text of this article? At 12:07 PM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote: > Greetings from the Library of Congress. They don't officially > subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST. Send your > queries now. > >HOT DOG > 13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: > One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large number > of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged grievances. >(Whew! That's close!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 18:58:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: "May you live in interesting times" (19 July 1961, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: See a discussion in the ADS-L archives. There are three earlier hits (December 9, 1950, pg. B13; May 14, 1929, pg. 6; June 8, 1900, pg. 6), but I'm going blind finding them. From the WASHINGTON POST, 19 July 1961, pg. D1: _All China Hands_ _Open China House_ OLD CHINA and young China joined hands with their trans-Pacific neighbor America Monday night in a modern echo of the ancient Chinese blessing, "May you live in interesting times." The occasion was a testimonial dinner at the Yenching Palace Restaurant marking the opening of China House, a center for the promotion of religious and cultural projects in Hong Kong, Formosa, and Southeast Asia. The center, which is located at 2020 Connecticut ave., nw, is the fruit of years of struggle spearheaded by a devoted band of Chinese Christians. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 19:44:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:44:39 -0500 Subject: Rickey (13 July 1890, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: From the WASHINGTON POST, 13 July 1890, pg. 9: _MID-SUMMER DRINKS._ _Seasonable Concoctions That Have Their Merits and Demerits._ The weather foundry, which General Greely edits, predicts some more Chicago weather this week, so prepare to perspire. In order to alleviate the distress of his fellow-sufferers the writer has been looking into the merits of several new combinations of liquids with a view to recommending something mildly exhilarating, something cooling but not too stimulating. One of the latest combinations is a whisky fizz, which seems to be about like all fizzes, save that bourbon is substituted for the usual article in alcohol. It is not to be recommended, however. It spoils good seltzer, and doesn't improve the whisky. The Joe Rickey comes next. There is in the minds of the rising generation considerable doubt as to whether the drink was named after Joe Rickey, or the Missouri statesman was christened after the drink. It is very simple, and tastes like a sour lemonade on a big booze. The waiter brings you a goblet of cracked ice in which is a squeezed half lime. You pour in your drink of whisky, and the darkey siphons in enough seltzer to fill the glass. Then you drink it. It is right pleasant and has the peculiar advantage inherited in and hither to monopolized by champagne and milk punches. You don't know that you have been drinking anything until you are so drunk that you don't know you have had anything to drink. For people who perspire freely and want something cooling, which will stay by and not make them thirstier than ever, a ginger-ale sour is recommended. A. C. Buel invented it, and it is very fine. (...) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Nov 25 20:10:48 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:10:48 -0500 Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: This is off-topic, but some of you folk are skillful at searching the Patent Office records, and this is an interesting story. Is there any record of such a patent being granted? The Black Legs and the Patent Swindling Bag. *** [The Sheriff arrests gamblers, finds false dice], numerous packs of artful marked cards, together with a sweat cloth and two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard of many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent for an improvement in the art of swindling – [the patent is said to have been] obtained through the influence of a conspicuous member of our national legislature. . . . Commercial Advertiser, March 24, 1815, p. 2, cols. 4-5, from the Bedford, Pa., Gazette of March GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 20:43:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:43:04 -0500 Subject: Seventh-inning stretch (17 September 1909, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: Gerald Cohen may forward this to the baseball people. One popular theory is that the baseball "seventh inning stretch" was born when President Taft first did it in 1910. From a long article ("TAFT SEES GIANTS WIN") in the WASHINGTON POST, 17 September 1909, pg. 1: In the seventh he stood up to stretch with the rest of the Chicago host, but the hunch was of no avail. (About.com web site info on "seventh inning stretch attached below--ed.) About > News & Issues > Urban Legends and Folklore The Seventh-Inning Stretch Origin (or not) of a baseball tradition By David Emery Popular memory has been unkind to William Howard Taft, 27th President of the United States, who surely would have wished to be remembered for something nobler than his weight. At 300 pounds, he is the heaviest chief executive on record. It's the rare biographical sketch that doesn't mention the giant bathtub — spacious enough to accomodate four average-sized men — specially built for him in the White House. Baseball history has accorded him somewhat more dignity, for it was Taft who launched the tradition of the presidential first pitch on the opening day of the season. The occasion was a game between the Washington Senators and the Philadelphia Athletics on April 14, 1910 at Griffith Stadium. Apparently on the spur of the moment, umpire Billy Evans handed Taft the ball after the rival managers had been introduced and asked him to throw it over home plate. The president did so with delight. Nearly every chief executive since Taft (the sole exception being Jimmy Carter) has opened at least one baseball season during their tenure by tossing out the first ball. Legend has it, Taft inspired another baseball tradition that same day quite by accident. As the game between the Senators and the Athletics wore on, the rotund, six-foot-two president reportedly grew more and more uncomfortable in his small wooden chair. By the middle of the seventh inning he could bear it no longer and stood up to relieve his discomfort — whereupon everyone else in the stadium, thinking the president was about to leave, rose to show their respect. A few minutes later Taft nonchalantly returned to his seat, the rest of the crowd sat down, and the "seventh-inning stretch" was born. A charming tale, but folklorists have a saying: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. Consider the story of Brother Jasper of Mary, F.S.C., the man credited with bringing baseball to Manhattan College in the late 1800s. Being the Prefect of Discipline as well as the coach of the team, it fell to Brother Jasper to supervise the student fans at every home game. On one particularly hot and muggy day in 1882, during the seventh inning against a semi-pro team called the Metropolitans, the Prefect noticed his charges becoming restless. To break the tension, he called a time-out in the game and instructed everyone in the bleachers to stand up and unwind. It worked so well he began calling for a seventh-inning time-out at every game. The Manhattan College custom spread to the major leagues after the New York Giants were charmed by it at an exhibition game, and the rest is history. Or not, as the case may be. As it turns out, baseball historians have located a manuscript dated 1869 — 13 years earlier than Brother Jasper's inspired time-out — documenting what can only be described as a seventh-inning stretch. It's a letter written by Harry Wright of the Cincinnati Red Stockings, the first pro baseball team. In it, he makes the following observation about the fans' ballpark behavior: "The spectators all arise between halves of the seventh inning, extend their legs and arms and sometimes walk about. In so doing they enjoy the relief afforded by relaxation from a long posture upon hard benches." Truth be known, we have no idea where and when the custom of the seventh-inning stretch began. Based on the evidence that exists, it's doubtful the phenomenon originated with William Howard Taft, or even Brother Jasper. We know it's at least as old as 1869, that it cropped up in various places afterward and that it eventually became a solid tradition. No record of the phrase "seventh-inning stretch" exists before 1920, by which time the practice was already at least 50 years old. Where history cannot tell the whole story, folklore arises to fill in the gaps. Sources: "Baseball History." Official Site of Major League Baseball. (24 Oct. 2000) Dickson, Paul. The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary. New York: Harvest Books, 1999. Schlossberg, Dan. The New Baseball Catalog. New York: Jonathan David, 1998. "What's a Jasper?" Manhattan College. (25 Oct. 2000) "William Howard Taft." White House History. (24 Oct. 2000) From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 21:10:56 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:10:56 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: Allyn Partin Hernandez is doing significant research on California pronunciation for her thesis at California State University, Northridge. She sent this report and gave permission for me to post it. She welcomes comments (and will see them, since she's on the list). - Allan Metcalf ----------------- The puzzle pieces are going together beautifully. I must say that the age groups' speech behavior produced no surprises and that even without machine analysis, the new sounds are as obvious as can be. (By new sounds, I refer to the shifts of /ae/ and /E/.) I used a one-page reading passage designed to elicit multiple tokens of everything that I wanted to examine. Among the categories were: /ae/ and /ae/ before nasals /E/ and /E/ before nasals and /g/ /hw/ words aplenty "narrow" and "Larry" words "Orange" and "foreign" words "hurry" words "Don" and "dawn" words -ing endings aunt, envelope, route, roof /str/ in words like "strong" & "Nordstrom" words containing /u:/, /U/ and /oU/ vowels before /l/ in words like "really" "available', etc. plenty of /aU/ opportunities "palm" and "calm" words *I used DARE's age groupings, and recorded people from 7-77, male and female *I recorded 60 people from 5 counties *Each person was asked to chat on tape after the reading passage was finished so that I could be sure that there wasn't a huge difference between the two situations' results *My informants were from the sociolinguistically influential lower-middle-class/working class brackets and they had occupations such as plumber, 911 operator, roofer, pet shop worker, public schoolteacher, mail clerk, fabric shop worker, and so on. Preliminarily, here's what I have: not one person below age 50 used /hw/ and many above didn't, either all age groups used /EI/ for "egg" and "leg" all age groups used a fronted and flattened /aU/ in words like "county" & "1000's" all groups had merged aw/ah, but the merged vowel differed in quality, with younger speakers sometimes favoring a rounded compromise vowel Breaking things down: YOUNG INNOVATOR GROUP aw/ah merged Forward /u/, /U/ and /oU/ /ae/ backed and lowered very often except before nasals /E/ backed and lowered very often except in "leg" words and in "get" words Creaky voice on sentence-final stressed vowel! Tapped /t/ replaced by glottal stop intervocalically across word boundaries "not a" /str/ becomes /Str/ in words like "strong" with male speakers leading the way TRANSITIONAL GROUP Same as above in the younger members of group Still a startling percentage of new /ae/ and /E/ shifts Higher incidence of "gIt" forms Some creaky voice, but generally only in females Rare glottal stops for /t/ TRADITIONAL /E/ before /n/ yields /I/--"when" etc. Midlands influence heard in ingliding on words like "him" /hw/ quite frequent but even still rarely 100% for each person NO glottal /t/ NO creaky voice /ae/ and /E/ in traditional places except before nasals. /ae/ before nasal didn't always raise NO forward back vowels Rural tone to speech as a whole /rUf/ occurences 8% of 7-17 63% of 18-39 66% of 40-59 83% of 60 yrs. + Much of the sound changes follow this kind of breakdown All in all, the oldest and youngest age groups had vastly different vowels in many cases. Machine analysis will be nice to do in the future, but these changes can be heard by anyone who listens to them on the tapes. I have been working away at this in my spare time and regret not giving you an update sooner. Now this just needs to be written into thesis form. It would be gratifying to have a way to triple our lifespans to see which of the shifts in the US win out. Could this be a GVS #2??? I see in the ADS Newsletter that someone gave a talk on Portland, OR speech that showed unstable /ae/ too! I wish that this could be hurried so that the So Cal findings could be considered by everyone before it's all yesterday's news.... From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Nov 25 22:29:44 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:29:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Message-ID: Please repond to the original sender, address below, as well as to the list. .......... Hello! I'm researching a book on the way that consumer items have changed the time - consciousness of Americans, turning us into a nation of impulse buyers and seekers of instant gratification. I've got a tricky request. Since I'm not an Etymologist, I don't know how to date the beginnings of a collocation's currency. But if you or your members know how, I would like to request such a dating for instant gratification itself. --All I really know is that instant coffee became a marketable item in 1909 with Red -- EE Coffee and then again in 1939 with powdered Nescafe. Despite my ignorance, I'm quite serious and do need your help... Sorry to appeal to you out of the blue like this. Best Wishes, Giles Slade, Ph.D. in Vancouver Canada gilesslade at hotmail.com gsslade at shaw.ca From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Nov 25 23:03:17 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:03:17 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Message-ID: Generally, the best place to start dating a term is the Oxford English Dictionary. Unfortunately, the OED does not have a specific listing for "instant gratification," but it does have a relevant listing for "instant," taking your sense back to 1912. Your 1909 usage presumably would antedate that. For "instant gratification," the earliest usage I've seen is from a 1975 legal opinion from the federal trial court in Manhattan: "Following the all too common scenario for such incidents, in their negotiations following the attack, the terrorists sought an aircraft to take them to a 'friendly country' and threatened to kill the hostages absent instant gratification." The full legal citation is Day v. Trans World Airlines, 393 F. Supp. 217, 219 (S.D.N.Y. Mar. 31, 1975), aff'd, 528 F.2d 31 (2d Cir. 1975), cert. denied, 429 U.S. 890 (1976). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Grant Barrett [mailto:gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Please repond to the original sender, address below, as well as to the list. .......... Hello! I'm researching a book on the way that consumer items have changed the time - consciousness of Americans, turning us into a nation of impulse buyers and seekers of instant gratification. I've got a tricky request. Since I'm not an Etymologist, I don't know how to date the beginnings of a collocation's currency. But if you or your members know how, I would like to request such a dating for instant gratification itself. --All I really know is that instant coffee became a marketable item in 1909 with Red -- EE Coffee and then again in 1939 with powdered Nescafe. Despite my ignorance, I'm quite serious and do need your help... Sorry to appeal to you out of the blue like this. Best Wishes, Giles Slade, Ph.D. in Vancouver Canada gilesslade at hotmail.com gsslade at shaw.ca From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 25 23:27:51 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:27:51 -0500 Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: Ron Butters writes, re the ADS newsletter: >> As of this moment it is not up yet. I found it at the site, as promised. --DS From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:09:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:09:47 EST Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is > said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for > the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard of > many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent for > an improvement in the art of swindling Unfortunately a fire on the night of December 14-15, 1836, destroyed the Patent Office, with the result that many patents issued before the fire are no longer extant. Does the quotation say that this particular patented Pharo box is designed for the purpose of cheating at Pharo? (analogous to a patent on a new way of marking cards?) Or is the writer considering the game of Pharo to be dishonest (as is 3-card monte, which is rarely if ever played honestly)? Interesting spelling of "Pharo". In Wild West days it seems to have been invariably spelled "faro", and it is said that the name was inspired by the Egyptian scenes on the back of 19th Century playing cards, which would imply the Biblical spelling "Pharaoh". (I have no idea if this is a correct etymology or an etymythology). - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:44:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:44:11 -0500 Subject: Corn Dog (1939); Cheeseburger (1938) Message-ID: CORN DOG 29 July 1939, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9: THE OTHER night we were telling Stanley and Billie Marcus, of Dallas, about our Hollywood adventures with the "nutberger." They came right back with one of their home-town delicacies, the "corn dog," which is a frankfurter baked in cornbread. So now I shall have another excuse to pay them a visit to Texas. --------------------------------------------------------------- CHEESEBURGER 3 December 1938, WASHINGTON POST, pg. X18: In production was Walter Wanger's "Stagecoach" and necessary was some stupendous scenery, unmarred by filling stations, concrete highways and cheeseburger stands. (Louisville's claim to the "cheeseburger" looks like it will be destroyed when LOS ANGELES TIMES full text comes out...More stuff when I get home--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:49:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:49:37 -0500 Subject: "Instant Gratification" (1902) Message-ID: 17 June 1902, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: "In a small way we see this in the conduct of the toper, who yields to the promise of instant gratification from drink, notwithstanding the prospect of to-morrow's headache and sickness joined with domestic dissention and public discredit." (The next hit on the database is 15 May 1968, pg. D4--ed.) From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Nov 26 02:50:51 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:50:51 -0600 Subject: California research Message-ID: How refreshing to have something dialectological to discuss on ADS-L! I'm glad to hear of someone documenting the changes of /E/ > [ae] and /ae/ > [a]. I've heard this mentioned by people at conferences but haven't seen much in print about it. Of course, it's also known as the Canadian Shift when it appears in the mouths of our neighbors to the North. It is supposed to be a chain-shifty response to the merger of the 'cot' and 'caught' vowels. I wonder if the California data can show a direct correlation between these developments at the level of the individual speaker (i.e., is /ae/ backed only by speakers with the merger and is /E/ lowered only by speakers with /ae/ backing?). This would be helpful in evaluating its status as a putative chain shift. I'm also curious about the cot/caught merger. You mentioned the pair, Don/dawn. Did you examine other contexts as well? Did you get any perception data on this merger? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 03:12:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:12:17 -0500 Subject: "Instant Gratification" (1902) In-Reply-To: <3F1CAA5C.52510E4D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Here is an earlier example of "instant gratification," from American Periodical Series: 1883 _Century Illustrated Magazine_ Dec. 288 How infinitely more it means to the thoroughly depraved -- the instant gratification of every savage and hungry devil of a passion which their vile natures harbor. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Nov 26 10:08:59 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:08:59 +0100 Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: The card game of "Pharaon" is documented in France since 1691 and got its name from the name of the king of hearts. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:09 AM Subject: Re: an odd patent > In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > > > two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is > > said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for > > the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard > of > > many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent > for > > an improvement in the art of swindling > > Unfortunately a fire on the night of December 14-15, 1836, destroyed the > Patent Office, with the result that many patents issued before the fire are > no longer extant. > > Does the quotation say that this particular patented Pharo box is designed > for the purpose of cheating at Pharo? (analogous to a patent on a new way of > marking cards?) Or is the writer considering the game of Pharo to be > dishonest (as is 3-card monte, which is rarely if ever played honestly)? > > Interesting spelling of "Pharo". In Wild West days it seems to have been > invariably spelled "faro", and it is said that the name was inspired by the > Egyptian scenes on the back of 19th Century playing cards, which would imply > the Biblical spelling "Pharaoh". (I have no idea if this is a correct > etymology or an etymythology). > > - Jim Landau > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 11:08:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:08:47 EST Subject: Whole Ball of Wax (1921), Winner Never Quits (1927), Garrison Finish (1891) Message-ID: A few notes before a big 3 a.m. "Fred Shapiro Special" from WASHINGTON POST full text. WASHINGTON POST FULL TEXT--The Library of Congress doesn't subscribe to this yet, but certainly will in fiscal year 2003. Some LOC librarians were given a two-month trial subscription of the service. This is what I used. I have the password, if anyone wants it. I think it should be used just in the LOC and on an LOC computer, though. "HOT DOG" IN 1896--That item was just a line more. It seems like a strange context; perhaps I'll have to look at the actual page. CALIFORNIA RESEARCH--Yes, ADS-L is also good for dialectology! It's no secret that I'm compiling work for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, DARE, OED, MERRIAM-WEBSTER, HDAS, YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, PAUL DICKSON'S BASEBALL DICTIONARY, Michael Quinion/David Wilton/Jonathon Green/David Barnhart/William Safire, and books/journals on new words and Wall Street terminology and New York terms and much more. I post these things, and other people post other things. It's just worked out that my work is in many online posts, while dialectology is in AMERICAN SPEECH and on the lecture circuit. But neither area should be exclusive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOLE BALL OF WAX It's earlier than we thought! 10 April 1921, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 11 ad: _Chauffeurs' Outfits_ _Overcoats,_ _Suits, Caps_ New spring things are in for the man who drives your car. The whole ball of wax, so to speak, which includes:... Parker-Brridget Co. Nationally Known Store for Men and Boys THE AVENUE AT NINTH 11 January 1914, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SP1: He'll draw his $12,500 per annum, bask in the sunlight of the fans' favor, and let the poor magnates and his fellow players wind up the ball of wax he set rolling as well as they can. (Ty Cobb baseball story--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A WINNER NEVER QUITS, AND A QUITTER NEVER WINS I had found 1928 in the NEW YORK TIMES, and I thought that was early. 10 March 1927, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R1: _Obligation for Character_ _Held Inherent in "Realtor"_ (...) "Never start anything without finishing it. 'A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits.'" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GARRISON FINISH The famous finish was in 1886. We'll soon see what the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE has. The NEW YORK TIMES had the phrase in 1893. 6 June 1891, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: _BATTED OUT A VICTORY_ _The Senators Solve Knell's Curves in the Last Innings._ _MADE A GARRISONIAN FINISH._ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A TIE IS LIKE KISSING YOUR SISTER The online NEW YORK TIMES has January 1954, from the same coach. 9 November 1953, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 12: _After Middies Battle Duke, 0-0_ _Navy Coach Eddie Erdelatz_ _Defines a Football Tie_ By Martie Zad Navy coach Eddie Erdelatz came up with a classic definition for a tie football game, especially a scoreless tie between Navy and Duke---"It's like kissing your sister." No one asked the mild spoken Navy coach to explain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I WENT TO A FIGHT AND A HOCKEY GAME BROKE OUT Still rather late, but earlier than the online NEW YORK TIMES. 12 January 1980, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C1: The unruly game envoked too many memories of that famous one-line: "I went to see a fight and a hockey game broke out." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STICK A FORK IN HIM, HE'S DONE Both slightly later than the 1953 that I'd posted. The first is in a book review. 31 January 1954, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B6: Should you care to know how to cook an old rooster "so it will soften up in the pot...put a brick in the pot along with the rooster, and when you can stick a fork in the brick the bird is done." 6 October 1958, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A21: Whenever Cookie Lavagetto takes out a faltering pitcher, he always says: "I'm going to stick a fork in you; you're done." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MORE BANG FOR A BUCK I searched for "buck" and "bang." This is what I had found from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE. 21 December 1953, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 10: _Defense Asks "More_ _Bang For A Buck"_ By Stewart Alsop ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROCK AND ROLL 10 November 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B13: The new Duke Ellington Club will rock and roll to the rhythms of the Golden Gate Quartet for the nextt few days. The boys make a specialty of swinging the old spirituals. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- HILL BILLY Eight citations, all from the name of the horse. The first "hill billy" three are: 13 October 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. 19 November 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. 18 August 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIES, DAMNED LIES, AND STATISTICS Check the online TIMES OF LONDON for the 1800s. 20 October 1901, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 19: London, Oct. 8.--Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- G.O.P. The first "G.O.P." (Grand Old Party) is 24 July 1886, pg. 2. I had found it in 1883 and all over the elections of 1884. This poor result really shocked me for the WASHINGTON POST. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 12:12:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:12:26 EST Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: I was generally disappointed with the food items I tested into WASHINGTON POST full text. I had expected "crab cakes" to be beaten easily, but it wasn't. I had expected the Delaware "submarine sandwich" to make an early appearance here in the 1940s, but I got the mid-1950s. The earliest "Manhattan" and "Martini" cocktails are in an 1891 article. There was not even an early "daiquiri." Here are some results, but I have more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JUNK FOOD "Junk food" is widely accepted to have been coined by Gael Greene in 1971--but it wasn't. The term is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. 1 September 1960, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C10: "In his book, 'Eat, Live and be Merry,' nutritionist Carlton Frdericks points out that 'half the protein in the adult diet should come from animal sources--that is, eggs, milk, cheese, meat and fish. Children should receive two-thirds of their protein from animal sources, with milk and eggs the prime sources and meat, fish and fowl second. "it is too bad that protein is the most costly element of a good diet--especially so for the lower-income families. The simple answer, I think, is to cut out practically all of the junk foods (soda pop, cookies, etc.), thereby saving money to purchase better foods.'" 25 June 1967, WASHINGTON POST, pg. L1: Food at Expo ranges from rare delights that one might think exist only in a gourmet's fancy to the greasy junk food found at a local ballpark or carnival. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GREEK SALAD Another early "Greek Salad" hit is the word balloon in this WINNIE WINKLE, THE BREADWIINER cartoon. 18 April 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9: WE'LL START WITH RUSSIAN CAVIAR THEN SCOTCH BROTH, SPANISH MACKEREL, ENGLISH MUTTON-CHOP, GREEK SALAD, ITALIAN SPUMONI, FRENCH PASTRY AND TURKISH COFFEE! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA KING This bolsters what I'd posted before. The right king must be crowned. 21 September 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3 ad: A good sherry to use to give the right flavor to lobster a la newberg, crab meat a la Maryland, and chicken a la king. _TO-KALON WINE CO._ 14 March 1915, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M4: _A NAME ON ALL MEN'S TONGUES._ _(Philadelphia Ledger.)_ The inventor of chicken a la King is dead. If Macadam is immortalized by a type of roadway, and Lord Raglan by a garment, and Sir Robert Peel by the "bobbies" and "peelers," why should not William King, of Philadelphia, go down to fame upon the palatable, savory concoction of fowl and muchrooms (sic), truffles and red peppers smothered in cream that wears his name? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SENATE BEAN SOUP Pinto beans, jelly beans, Senate bean soup--didn't I promise you beans? Not in the latest DARE under "Senate"? See the entry in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). I didn't find an early hit for it with "bean soup," but this is a fine article. I take this back with me from the Library of Congress, and post this as a duty to this great nation. From the WASHINGTON POST, 4 January 1943, pg. 1: _No Party Lines_ _Bean Soup, Senate Fixture,_ _Sure of Confidence Vote_ By Francis J. Kelly Not the least of the preparations going forward yesterday for the opening of Congress Wednesday was the polishing of the big brass kettle where the Senate's bean soup simmers. That bean soup has been a daily feature on the menu of the Senate Restaurant for at least 40 years, and one ancient waiter said he reckoned it was compulsory under the Constitution. Veterans of the Capitol, however, recalled that its daily preparation was ordered by the Senate Rules Committee around the turn of the century upon the demand of the late Senator Knute Nelson, a Republican bean soup fancier from Minnesota. The venerable delicacy, though priced at only 15 cents, is still the pride of Paul C. Johnson, head of service in the Senate dining rooms. To admiring visitors, he hands this recipe headed, "Keep 'em flying high, to do this you had better try, that good old-fashioned bean soup": "Take 3 pounds of small navy pea beans, wash and run through hot water, until beans are white again, put on the fire with 4 quarts of hot water, then take 1 1/2 pounds of smoked ham hocks, boil for 2 1/2 hours, braise one onion chopped in a little butter, and when light brown, put in bean soup, season with salt and pepper, then serve, do not add salt until ready to serve." That's his plain bean soup, which has stocked many a Senator for feats of eloquence and endurance. Johnson has a supersoup, however, for state occasions and bonfire nights. "Take a nice slice of Smithfield ham, saute it, dice it up in the bottom of the soup dish and pour the bean soup over it. M-m-m-m! M-m-m-m! Mighty fine! The essence of the Smithfield ham permeates up through the rich hot soup and it opens up your vocal chords, stimulates your appetite and clears out your head." Restaurants are maintained in both the House and Senate wings of the Capitol, with all but a few of the dining rooms open to the public. The Senators and Representatives have to pay for their meals like anyone else. Johnson, connected with the restaurant since 1900, recalled the good old days when every Senator was served a half-pound of butter at a time and there was a bowl of fruit, a basket of bread and a huge pineapple cheese on every table. Before 1903, juleps and punches were served, but alcoholic drinks no longer are available in the dining rooms. "In those days," Johnson recalled, "a waiter didn't have to go around with a pocketful of nickels and dimes. It was $5 anmd $10 bills, and keep the change." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Nov 26 15:39:10 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:39:10 -0600 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). Gerald Cohen >What is the proper term for two words that sound the same yet are spelled >differently and have different meaning. Or, is there a term? If so, I can't >recall. If there isn't, there should be. It seems like I recall meeting such >a term in my recent past! > >Example: sleigh slay meet meat and so on. > >Help me out! > From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 26 15:44:35 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:44:35 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 09:39:10AM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not > "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be > identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). I believe _homophone_ is the usual term for words pronounced the same but spelled differently. Jesse Sheidlower From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 15:57:00 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:57:00 EST Subject: Take the chair in Atlanta Message-ID: Here's an opportunity for those planning to attend our annual meeting in Atlanta January 2-4. We have seven sessions that need chairs. As you know, the job of a chair is simple: show up ahead of time, meet the speakers, introduce them, diplomatically ensure that they keep on schedule, and field questions if there is time. You can find the seven sessions listed in our September newsletter, available now by pdf from our website www.americandialect.org. If you're interested, please let me know, and tell me if you have a preference for a session. You can even get your name in the official LSA program if you let me know before December 2. Yes, I know this is late notice and it's a holiday week. . . . Happy Thanksgiving! - Allan Metcalf (send your reply to me at AAllan at aol.com, rather than the whole list) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Nov 26 16:30:12 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:30:12 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: homophone > I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not >"homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be >identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). > >Gerald Cohen > >>What is the proper term for two words that sound the same yet are spelled >>differently and have different meaning. Or, is there a term? If so, I can't >>recall. If there isn't, there should be. It seems like I recall meeting such >>a term in my recent past! >> >>Example: sleigh slay meet meat and so on. >> >>Help me out! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:22:11 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:22:11 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: Yes, the /ae/ is backed by speakers with the cot/caught merger and the /E/ is lowered by speakers with /ae/ backing. It seems to me that this could very well be a chain-shifty response to the merger of the cot/caught vowels. My data show that the cot/caught merger is about 2 (20-yr.) generations ahead of the new /ae/ and /E/ shifts. And, even then, it is female speakers who are at the leading edge with the /ae/ and /E/ innovations. This is what we would expect, of course. Naturally, the /ae/ and /E/ shifts are not wholesale and even the youngest speakers aren't consistent with them. For example, the ______/s/ environment is a strong predictor of a lowered /E/ variant. (DARE Volume 1 mentions this.) A typical informant in the youngest group might have a lowered /E/ in "guest" "reception" and "best" but later on in the recording a /E/ in the traditional position for "guest" "reception" and "recipe". "Don" and "Dawn" were side-by-side throughout the reading passage because this was the name of the protagonists in the story. Many of the informants said that it was strange to have a bride and groom with the same name! I did not get any perception data other than those reactions, however. In fact, in an effort to get the most "natural" reading style possible, I didn't put other obvious cot/caught minimal pairs next to each other in the passage. The passage is full of /aw/ and /ah/ items, not necessarily minimal pairs. I hope that that isn't a fatal flaw. My oldest informant, age 77, had a traditional vowel for "talk"-type words. Other than that, she had the merger. I didn't mention everything in my memo to Allan. I also tested for "morning"/"mourning"-type words--all merged. The "shouldEn't" and "hiddEn" innovation hasn't lost any steam since I reported onit in 1999. "want" and "watch", etc. have /ah/. Did this answer some of your questions? Thank you very much for your comments and for your interest. Allyn From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:34:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:34:32 EST Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > The term [ "Junk food"]is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing > McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy > (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. Don't you remember the old saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"? That has become the motto of the tart lawyer. The bigger the company, the easier it is for the tart lawyer to portray it as a heartless inhuman mercenary monster and his client as David versus Goliath. Also, the larger the corporation, the deeper the pockets. Are you aware that MacDonalds lost a sizable court judgment to someone who got burned by hot coffee at a Golden Arches? Tart lawyers have been salivating ever since. Why MacDonald's and not Plaid Donuts? Because MacDonald's is not only bigger and presumably wealthier, it is much more visible than Duncan Donuts. As for Pillsbury, it is associated in the public mind with flour, not fast food. > CHICKEN A LA KING > > 21 September 1911, WASHINGTON COMPOST, pg. 3 ad: > A good sherry to use to give the right flavor to lobster a la newberg, > crab meat a la Maryland, and chicken a la king. "Chicken a la king" is in the 6th Edition (date uncertain, probably 1912) of _The Settlement Cook Book_. It is NOT in the 2nd (1903) edition. - Jim Landau From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:40:22 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:40:22 EST Subject: Correction CA Research Message-ID: Just as I hit the "Send" button, I realized that I included "reception" as an environment of /E/ before /s/--not true, of course, sorry. "Reception" itself, though, was a word whose stressed vowel triggered a lot of lowered renditions. Allyn From simon at IPFW.EDU Tue Nov 26 18:28:50 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:28:50 -0500 Subject: California research Message-ID: Is there evidence for E > I, e.g. hEj (hedge v.) > hIj? beth simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 26 18:19:25 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:19:25 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: You know, I hear this anti-lawyer stuff all the time, and I have to say that it seems unfair to me. It's like saying that all linguists share the political views of Noam Chomsky. Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. McDonald's served scalding hot coffee to drive-through customers in a flimsy cup, knowing that children and the elderly are particularly affected by heat. Predictably, an elderly woman spilled coffee on herself. She was hospitalized for eight days, had to have skin grafts, and was disabled for two years. Critics of the case make it sound like everyone gets hot liquids spilled on them occasionally and shouldn't make a big deal about it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > The term [ "Junk food"]is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing > McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy > (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. Don't you remember the old saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"? That has become the motto of the tart lawyer. The bigger the company, the easier it is for the tart lawyer to portray it as a heartless inhuman mercenary monster and his client as David versus Goliath. Also, the larger the corporation, the deeper the pockets. Are you aware that MacDonalds lost a sizable court judgment to someone who got burned by hot coffee at a Golden Arches? Tart lawyers have been salivating ever since. Why MacDonald's and not Plaid Donuts? Because MacDonald's is not only bigger and presumably wealthier, it is much more visible than Duncan Donuts. As for Pillsbury, it is associated in the public mind with flour, not fast food. - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 18:34:02 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:34:02 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I > would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media > reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. In fact the supposed outrageousness of the McDonald's case is an urban legend. McDonald's, as I understand it, kept their coffee at excessive temperatures. much hotter than at other chains, so that it would not need to be reheated for a long time. A woman was badly burned as a result. Although lawyers undoubtedly merit a variety of different kinds of criticism, the anti-plaintiff stories that are spread by the "tort reform" movement are motivated by powerful corporate interests, since large corporations are typically defendants in tort cases. Often the plaintiffs are the only ones holding to account corporations who have committed the most heinous environmental and other transgressions. If you're an environmentalist, you probably should be an enemy of tort reform. Tort reform also fits into a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate abuses go unchecked. Unfortunately the Democrats too seem to be going along with much of this. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 18:53:52 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:53:52 EST Subject: Ultramercial Message-ID: UTRAMERICAL--From today's NEW YORK SUN, 16 November 2002, pg. 8, col. 1: _Salon.com Launches "Ultramercials"_ SAN FRANCISCO, Ca.--Fighting for survival, the online magazine Salon.com has introduced an unusual adveritsing program that waives subscription fees for readers willing to wade through an interactive commercial. Salon Media Group Inc. is offering "Ultramercials" sponsored by Mercedes-Benz as an alternative to paying for premium access, which costs $18,,50 to $30 a year. (Mercedes is looking to advertise to a crowd that can't afford $30 a year?--ed.) SCUTTLEBUTT (Or, bad or misplaced etymological discussion of the day)--From the same issue of THE SUN, in an article on the Supreme Court, pg. 6, col. 2: "...it's worth recalling thhat there's a reason the word 'scuttlebutt' has the word 'butt' in it" From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Nov 26 19:05:06 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:05:06 -0600 Subject: Upgliding 'open o' Message-ID: Kind of a technical question: Can someone tell me about the conditioning of upgliding diphthongal variants of 'open o' ( the vowel of caught, dawn, etc.) heard in the South (Midlands)? Do they occur in all environments? Kurath and McDavid (1961) note they're more common before /g/ and the velarized /l/ of 'salt'. I'm particularly interested in possible differences between following stops and nasals (e.g., caught vs. dawn). thanks From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 19:27:26 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:27:26 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: I hear /i/ in words like "fish" in older Californians. My father, who is 78, does it. Similarly, that /e/ in "fresh" and "measure" is heard in the speech of older Californians. My great aunt does that. I'd say that the first is more common. I have not heard /I/ in that second group; /e/ only. Although I didn't test for /E/ before the velar nasal, I can say with confidence that "strIngth" and "lIngth" are common in all age groups around here. Allyn From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 26 20:08:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:08:39 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: Homophone. --Dodi Schultz From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 26 20:41:40 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:41:40 -0800 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: <148.36dbd16.2b150aa8@aol.com> Message-ID: --- "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern > Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM > writes: > > .... That has become the motto of the tart > lawyer.... > - Jim Landau \ Jim, did you coin the phrase "tart lawyer" for a lawyer who sues fast food companies for alleged torts, or did it come from someone else? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Tue Nov 26 20:40:51 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:40:51 -0800 Subject: is cow towing the opposite of cow tipping? In-Reply-To: <9.3007a34.2b13a6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: when did kowtow first appear in the English language? amusing typo in the Venture Reporter today - undoubtedly brought on by an automated spellchecker: Critics Say U.S. Government Censors Internet Health Information VentureReporter.net Tuesday, November 26, 2002, 2:46 PM ET Health activists and Democratic members of Congress have accused the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services of censoring medical information in an effort to promote to promote conservative sexual mores. In once instance, an article finding no link between abortion and breast cancer was removed from the Internet after a pro-life member of Congress wrote to Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. In another case, an article about condom use was removed from the Web site of the Centers for Disease Control. Critics such as Planned Parenthood have denounced the excising of the articles, claiming that the Bush administration is cow towing to social conservatives. One Republican Representative and 11 Democrats wrote to Secretary Thompson, urging that the removed breast cancer article be republished. Read the New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/26/national/26ABST.html (registration required) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 20:49:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:34 PM -0500 11/26/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > >> Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I >> would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media >> reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. > >In fact the supposed outrageousness of the McDonald's case is an urban >legend. McDonald's, as I understand it, kept their coffee at excessive >temperatures. much hotter than at other chains, so that it would not need >to be reheated for a long time. A woman was badly burned as a result. > >Although lawyers undoubtedly merit a variety of different kinds of >criticism, the anti-plaintiff stories that are spread by the "tort reform" >movement are motivated by powerful corporate interests, since large >corporations are typically defendants in tort cases. Often the plaintiffs >are the only ones holding to account corporations who have committed the >most heinous environmental and other transgressions. If you're an >environmentalist, you probably should be an enemy of tort reform. Tort >reform also fits into a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the >long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, >health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate >abuses go unchecked. Unfortunately the Democrats too seem to be going >along with much of this. > Yes, indeed, especially since some (although much less) of *their* campaign contributions come from the same sources. Note also the recent "Homeland Security Bill" that included a provision to exempt Eli Lilly, a major Republican sponsor, from suits by families whose children have been damaged by a Lilly-produced vaccine preservative that has been linked (so far not conclusively) to autism. As John McCain and others have pointed out to no avail, this has absolutely nothing to do with "security", except that of the Lilly shareholders and corporate officers. OK, sorry, off topic, but we are talking about urban legends, and hence indirectly of etymythologies... Larry From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 20:59:40 2002 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:59:40 -0500 Subject: Take the chair in Atlanta Message-ID: Dear Allan, Of course, I'd be glad to help out -- no preference regarding session. And if you have a flood of interest, I'm as happy not to do it as I will be to serve. With all best wishes for the holiday, Michael From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 21:28:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:28:40 EST Subject: is cow towing the opposite of cow tipping? Message-ID: In any other context, the verb "to tow" means "to pull". However, on the Mississippi River and its tributaries, barges are "towed" by being PUSHED from behind, the pushing being done by a "towboat". Hence, if the cow be floating in the Mississippi valley, and gets towed, it is going in the opposite direction than if it were being towed on dry land. In this sense, "cow towing" is a self-antonym. When a towboat "tows" a barge, it does so by pushing on the barge with the towboat's front end. Hence it conducts "bow towing". Now how to tow a cow? Bow tow. Not to be confused with a group of dogs conferring on the proper demonstrations of servility to overbearing feminists: a NOW sow kowtow bow-wow powwow. And of course you bow to kowtow. As for cow tipping, I believe that is for keeping Elsie contented. - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Nov 26 23:03:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:03:12 -0800 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: <20021126204140.10230.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:41 PM -0800 James Smith wrote: > --- "James A. Landau" wrote: >> In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern >> Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >> writes: >> >> > .... That has become the motto of the tart >> lawyer.... >> - Jim Landau > \ > Jim, did you coin the phrase "tart lawyer" for a > lawyer who sues fast food companies for alleged torts, > or did it come from someone else? > My son (from the safety of Canada) sends two alternate theories: "Tart lawyers? Would those be the ones who represent the Queen of Hearts, or possibly Britney Spears?" Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 00:05:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:05:41 EST Subject: New York Minute (1927, 1974 WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: "New York Minute" is supposedly from Texas. (See DARE.) Unfortunately for this term and so much southwestern cuisine, no Texas newspaper is going online soon. It does show up in WASHINGTON POST full text on 20 January 1974, pg. C3. The story is "Constitution Time Again in Texas," By Molly Irvins ("The writer is an editor for the Texas Observer"). The next hit is 1952, but it's a false hit. This is the real thing, but because of the large time gap, I'd rule it questionable. I have no idea what OED has or is going to do for its "N" revision coming up soon. From the WASHINGTON POST, 20 April 1927, pg. 6: _The New York Minute._ Baltimore Sun: Yale's world-round reunion by radio on Wednesday will show what New York is. THe speech of President Angell at noon in New York, put on the air for loyal listeners wherever they may be, will reach Honolulu at 6 a. m. Wednesday and Tokyo at 2 a. m. Thursday. Twenty hours difference! A few brief minutes of time at New York thus become nearly a whole day when spread around the earth. If that doesn't prove the intensity of life in the metropolis, what does? (O.T. NEW YORK CITY "WHY ON EARTH DO I LIVE HERE?" MOMENT: I was walking to the Port Authority, passing Broadway and 42nd Street. There is a split apple on the billboard sign. The text says "GET TO THE CORE OF NEW YORK." In the apple's core is "DAILY NEWS." Fourteen years ago, I won the first DAILY NEWS MAGAZINE "Only in New York" contest. Ten years ago, when Gerald Cohen and I solved "the Big Apple," no one would speak to me--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Nov 27 00:17:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:17:40 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: <20021126154434.GA13632@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: #On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 09:39:10AM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote: #> I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not #> "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be #> identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). # #I believe _homophone_ is the usual term for words pronounced #the same but spelled differently. How standardized is that definition of "homonym"? -- Mark A. Mandel From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Nov 27 00:20:48 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:20:48 -0800 Subject: na-poo, whonky Message-ID: the OED has earlier cites for "napoo", but this one from 1921 (Herbert Jenkins, _Malcolm Sage, Detective_. George A. Doran Co., NY - citation contributed to me by a friend) is fairly entertaining: "...when I found the bloomin' engines had gone whonky, then -" "Found the engines had gone what?" enquired Mr. Walters. "Whonky, dud, na-poo," explained Richards illuminatingly, whilst Mr. Walters gazed at him icily. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), with thanks to ann burlingham of perry, new york From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 00:43:00 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:43:00 EST Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: Whatever the correct term is, the general public, I believe, uses "homonym" for words that sound alike but are spelled differently. See, for instance, this website which catalogs "triple homonyms": http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/%7Endauber/triplehom/ In my Catholic grammar school in the 1950s, I was taught these were called homonyms. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 01:54:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:54:03 EST Subject: Chop Suey (1886), Ice Cream Sandwich (1900) and more Message-ID: OFF-SITE, MISSING, NOT-ON-SHELF BOOKS MISSING Mida's Trademark Bureau CONFECTIONERY TRADE-MARKS (1907?) is missing from the Library of Congress. It would have been nice to use for early candy names, possibly including "jelly bean." I have to see who else has it. MISSING Carlton Fredericks' EAT, LIVE AND BE MERRY (1951) is missing from the NYPL. I searched through the catlogs of the Queens PL, Brooklyn PL, NYU, Columbia, and the Philadelphia Free Library. No one has it. I'll look for it in the LOC when I go there again. "Junk food" was possibly coined in this book. Fredericks had a very influential radio program on nutrition. OFF-SITE The George Freeman book on beans (1912) came in, and it does NOT have "pinto beans." It cites a book on beans published by the Cornell School of Agriculture. The NYPL has that, but of course, that's off-site, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOAGIE, SUB, HERO, TORPEDO SANDWICH Howard Robboy is/was a student at Temple University and then a professor at Trenton State College. I've discussed him before. A very good article about him is in the WASHINGTON POST, 4 August 1977, Pg. E10: _Please Pass the Subs--Er, Hoagies, Er... (...) Submarine, he found, is the most popular name for the sandwich, followed by hoagie, poor boy and grinder. In some cities they go by more than one name, such as Philadelphia, where one finds both hoagies and submarines. Other names are torpedo (Reno, San ANtonio, San Diego), Italian sandwich (Louisville, Reading, Allentown), here (New York City and Newark), rocket (Cheyenne and Cincinnati), bomber in Buffalo, mufalatta in New Orleans, Cuban sandwich in Miami, wedgie in Weschester County, N. Y. and slame in Berkeley. Norristown is the only place it is referred to as a zeppelin, and Madison the only place one finds it as a garibaldi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHOP SUEY From the WASHINGTON POST, 25 July 1886, pg. 5: _NEW YORK'S CHINA-TOWN._ _A DINNER IN MONG SING WAH'S RESTAURANT._ _Not Altogether an Affair of Dogs and Rats--The Joss of the Kitchen--How to Order a Chinese Dinner--Tea in Oriental Style._ Special Correspondce of THE POST. (...) "Chow-chop-suey, chop-seow, laonraan, san-sui-goy, no-ma-das," blibly ordered my friend... Chow-chop suey was the first dish we attacked. It is a toothsome stew, composed of bean sprouts, chicken's gizzards and livers, calfe's tripe, chagou fish, dried and imported from China, pork, chicken and various other ingredients which I was unable to make out. Notwithstanding its mysterious nature, it is very good and has formed the basis of many a good Chinese dinner I have since eaten. Chopseow is perfumed roast pork. The pork is roasted and then hung in the smoke of various aromatic herbs which gives it a most delicious flavor. It is cut into small pieces, as indeed is everything at a Chinese restaurant, that it may be readily handled with chopsticks. No bread is served at a Chinese dinner, but its place is taken by boiled rice, or fan, as it is called in Chinese. A couple of bowls of rice is lanoke-an, the F being dropped when the number is prefixed, and such rice, white, light, snowy; each grain thoroughly cooked yet separate. Fish is delightfully cooked, baked in a sort of brown sauce , and masquerades under the name of sau-sui-goy. The only condiment is seow, a sort of Celestial cousin to Worcestershire sauce, and, in fact, its probable original. The evolution of Worcestershire sauce was somewhat as follows: Seow was taken from China to Indiawhere hot spices were added to tickle the palates and livers of the English East Indians, who relished Chili sauce, army powder and red pepper. There it was known as soy. From the East Indies to England, where it was still more spiced and flavored and patriotically called Worcestershire sauce. But the average Chinaman uses but little flavoring in his food, he prefers the natural taste. The whole dinner was washed down with many cups of tung-ia, as tea is called, and small cups of no-ma-deo, of Chinese whisky, which is distilled from rice and poured over figs and prunes, giving it a sweet, fruity flavor, more like a cordial than our notion of whisky,. No-ma-deo is served in comical little china teapots, and is a most insidious fluid. You drinks it from little cups holding about a tablespoonful, and it seems so mild and sweet that the intoxicating result comes over your senses like a thunderclap. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FORTUNE CAKES The California State Library has an index to the San Francisco newspapers, from 1904. It isn't very good. I used the microfiche copy in the LOC. From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 5 October 1942, Pg. 10, col. 3: _Fortune Cakes: A Threat to a Noble Art_ (...) The wisecrack has invaded the folded-up "fortune cookies" that are served with tea in the chop suey houses. (...) It developed first that all the rice cakes and fortune cookies sold in San Francisco are baked by Kay Heung and Company on Beckett Street. (The "and" is a delightful touch, for "Kay Heung" means "Extraordinary Fragrance.") This firm is owned by five partners, including Charles and Harry Hoo Soo. Charles supervises the baking and Haryy does the literary work, but he is no longer in evidence on Beckett Street because he is now employed as an electrician at the Moore Shipyard. (...) Mr. Soo Hoo has been literary adviser to Kay Heung and Company since it was founded in 1933, and in that time has placed some 100 mottoes in cvirculation. (...) Mr. Soo Hoo tells me, incidentally, that fortune cookies are unknown in China, where only the flat variety of rice cake is consumed. The folded kind with the motto inside was invented in this city about 20 years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KEY LIME PIE 28 May 1939, WASHINGTON POST, pg. TT2: Frank Markey, recently returned from Florida, went on a hunt for turtle steak, lime pie and conch chowder in Manhattan. He reports no success, and says he'll have to take me south to prove the merits of these delicacies. 14 January 1940, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A7: _Key West, Unique Resort City_ (...) Key West has also an unusual menu to whet the appetite--turtle steaks, black bean soup and delicious lime pie, are epicurean pleasures not to be overlooked. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SURF AND TURF I checked the archives. Is 1970 the earliest I posted? From the WASHINGTON POST, 29 May 1968, pg. C8 ad: for elegant dining we feature our original surf and turf nightly resv. 337-0900 _STUFT_ _SHIRT_ in the GEORGETOWN MANOR 1075 Thos. Jefferson St. ----------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRICK OR TREAT From a letter sent to the WASHINGTON POST, 21 November 1948, pg. S11: Regarding the question of N. L. on "trick or treat": I lived in Washington from 1817-1938 and since then, in Arlington. Previously, I had lived in some 20 other towns and cities and I never saw nor heard of the begging practice until about 1936. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ICE CREAM SANDWICH 25 July 1900, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4: _HOT WEATHER ENTERPRISE._ _Devices of Street Merchants and Others to Attract Patronage._ >From the New York Tribune. (Previously posted--ed.) 19 August 1900, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15: >From the New York Telegraph. The ice cream sandwich is a new hot weather luxury which is rapidly coming into downtow favor. An enterprising hokey-pokey vendor, whose daily station is in John street, is the projector, and his push cart is constantly surrounded by a jostling, sweltering crowd of patrons, representing all social conditions, from banker down to bootblack and newsboy. The inventor takes a graham wafer, deftly plasters it with ice cream, claps another wafer on top, and there is your ice cream sandwich. The cost is trifling, ranging from 2 to 3 cents, according to the size and thickness of the thing. But the man is simply coining money, where he eked out a meager revenue before. He has simply tickled the public's fancy for something new. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SUNDAE 11 August 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. E7: _THE SEDUCTIVE SUNDAE._ _None of the Soda Fountain Men Can Tell How the Name Originated._ >From the New York Tribune. (Previously posted--ed.) 16 August 1908, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M1: _THE ORIGIN OF "SUNDAE." (Kansas City Journal) (Also previously posted--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- WASHINGTON POST FOOD MISC. HUISH PUPPY--The first hit is the late date of 24 March 1938, pg. X13. The article describesthe WPA's new book, U. S. ONE, which is "both a history and a culinary lesson." American regional food is described in five paragraphs here. Did DARE and OED and Andy Smith all use this book, or should I begin citing from it? DANISH PASTRY--A Bellevue Farms Lunch Co. ad for "Danish Pastries" is 23 December 1919, pg. 3. ICE CREAM CONE--The first citation is a rather late 23 June 1906, pg. 8. SALT WATER TAFFY--OED has 1894. From 22 April 1894, pg. 20: "The first booth where we paused was the one at which salt water taffy was sold. TAILGATE PICNIC--The first hit is the rather late 20 June 1962, pg. D4. "Olive Meat Loaf for Tail-Gate Bunwiches," 8 July 1965, pg. E10, is possibly of interest. HOT STOVE LEAGUE--Tons of hits, including two regular columns using this in the title. However, the first hit of 12 March 1920, pg. 8, doesn't beat the 1912 that Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY received from David Shulman. From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 27 02:53:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:53:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [no subject] Message-ID: This came to the ADS-L request address; I'm sending it to the list as a whole for anyone who wants to reply. Jesse Sheidlower ----- Forwarded message from zhang weiguang ----- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:30:02 +0800 (CST) From: "zhang weiguang" To: ads-l-request at listserv.uga.edu Subject: X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [61.243.175.142] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DEAR_SOMEBODY,DEAR_SOMETHING,RCVD_IN_RFCI, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,SUBJ_MISSING version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: ** Dear Sirs, My name is Zhang Weiguang,born in 1955.I'm from China.I am an editor.I hope to v isit your Society with two purposes.One is to learn more about The American slang s.I'm interested in them and collected many of them.I want to write a book in whi ch I will try to solve some problems such as how did the meanings of the slangs e merge?what kind of cultural phenomena do they reflect?what position do they occup y in the modern English? and so on.The other purpose is I want to make a cultural investigation at your Society and discuss with you about the possibility of our spreading your academic activities in China or setting up a branch which belongs to you in China. I plan to stay in America for only two weeks at my own expenses.I shall be thank ful if I can be invited by anyone of you to visit your country.If you would like to know more about me,please put forward your questions,I'll be glad to answer th em. I'm looking forward to your e-mail. Thank you. Yours, Zhang Weiguang ============================================================= Ïã¸Û˧¸ç±¾µØÃÀüÓëÄã½»ÓÑÔ¼»á-ËÙÅäÁªÒê Ê¡¸ÛÄÐŮʥµ®ÇãÇéÒ¹ http://dating.163.com/ ÍøÒ×ÅÄÂôվʱÉÐרÇø£¬¸ÐÊܶ¼ÊеÄ÷ÈÁ¦£¡ http://auctions.163.com/zhuanqu/fashion/ Ãâ·ÑÓÊÏ佡¿µÉ±¶¾´óÐж¯£¡ http://popme.163.com/freemail/index.html ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 06:40:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:40:32 -0500 Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) Message-ID: "NUTTY AS A FRUITCAKE" (continued) Last Tuesday, in a fit of "nutty" masochism, I wrote an e-mail to the editor of the VILLAGE VOICE. No, "nutty as a fruitcake" was not coined in 1935. Check the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG H-O. My name is also in that volume. There was no response. This week's VILLAGE VOICE is out. There is no correction. --------------------------------------------------------------- NAGE From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 74, col. 3: ...and an entree of wild-mushroom ravioli in a fish-free black-truffle "nage" (a term usually reserved for seafood broth). OED's revision is fast approaching "nage." A look at "nage" shows a disaster. It's an obscure word meaning "buttocks." There were 469 hits for "nage" and "restaurant" on the Dow Jones database. The earliest hit is strickly in French. The first hit on the online NEW YORK TIMES appears to be 1972. 21 June 1972, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 54: A simpler taste might have preferred the same crayfish, from a lively tank beside the terrace, poached a la nage, but it was an elegant preparation in the Escoffier tradition. 27 March 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 363: But how can you come home and whip up a _petit homard a la nage_, a _caneton au cidre_, a _feuilette aux pommes chaudres_? 8 May 1985, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C1: A few of Mr. Gerin's best dishes are a nage of shrimp (in a shrimp broth), briefly cooked and masked with a white butter sauce;... 24 May 1987, DALLAS MORNING NEWS, pg. 6J: Instead, le Bernardin serves fish a la nage, or lightly simmered in broth with fresh vegetables, or poached with a light dressing of warm herb vinaigrette, or in an emulsion of fish stock wine, olive oil, or butter. 30 August 2002, WASHINGTON POST, pg. T22: Another very nice appetizer of seared scallops, English peas and favas was given unusual complexity, but not gravity, by a tarragon-laced nage (an emulsified broth) with a tantalizing hint of sweetness, almsot like vanilla, that came from carmelized onions. 4 October 2002, SEATTLE TIMES, pg. H11: Where Staples would balance the delicate flavors of grilled prawns, creamy polenta and lobster nage ($13) with a garnish 0f crisp pancetta, Campbell uses apple-wood-smoked bacon, which dominates more than complements. 6 November 2002, NEW YORK TIMES, section F, pg. 11, col. 1: Walleyed pike (brought in from Switzerland, not Wisconsin, a waiter confided) is wrapped in potato slices so thin they appear to be fish scales and then served in a mellow truffle nage. (At least no one serves the "buttocks" in "whore sauce"--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- SMITHFIELD HAM OED has 1908 for "Smithfield ham." The latest DARE ends at "Sk." From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 April 1892, pg. 12: _WHITE HOUSE DINERS._ _THE PRESIDENT LIKES HAM AND OFTEN HAS IT._ WASHINGTON, April 9.--A notable feature at three of the large dinner parties given at the White House this season has been to serve as one course Smithfield ham smoking hot and surrounded with spinach. Immediately after this was served Roman punch as the next course. The President is particularly fond of ham, so that it has become a staple dish at the White House, and whatever else is served at luncheon there is always sure to be a beautifully-browned ham. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- SENATE BEAN SOUP (continued) From the NEW YORK TIMES database this time. 24 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 20: Meetings are Wednesday luncheons in the Senate restaurant, where the girls order bean soup or an 85-cent fried chicken meal. 4 January 1943, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 12: _SENATE BEAN SOUP_ _REMAINS AT 15 CENTS_ _Upper House Restaurant Pre-_ _pares Its Forty-Year Feature_ (Recipe and details are the same as in the WASHINGTON POST--ed.) 11 January 1943, NEW YORK TIMES, "Topics of the Times," pg. 14: _Double Standard in Soup._ Most people have assumed that only the best was served up to our Congressmen in the way of food, but it now appears that there are two grades of bean soup. An Associated Press story from Washington informs us that as far back as the turn of the century the Senate Rules Committee decided that the chamber's restaurant should never be out of bean soup, and that it has been a daily fixture on the menu now for about forty years. The details of its preparation, including ham hocks, a braised onion chopped in a little butter and, of course, beans, suffice to turn the thoughts far from the process of lawmaking. But this is the "plain" bean soup. There is a "super-soup," we are told, for state occasions. This calls for special ingredients, such as a "nice slice of smoked ham," which is sauted and diced, and it has, of course, its special uses. "It opens up your vocal cords, stimulates your appetite and clears out your head." We have here perhaps the explanation of hitherto unexplained flights of oratory and displays of unaccustomed wisdom. It may also be permitted to ask why the super-soup is not served more frequently. --------------------------------------------------------------- FAIR WORDS BUTTER NO PARSNIPS David Shulman and I gave a medal to the health services worker who helped to save his life. Still, Shulman felt she deserves a monetary gift. (We'll do that for Christmas.) "Fair words butter no parsnips," he said. He told me to look it up. OED has it under "butter," from 1870. However, for 1645, it has "Fair words butter no fish." 9 November 1822, THE GOSPEL HERALD (American Periodical Series online), pg. 203, col. 2: "FAIR WORDS BUTTER NO PARSNIPS." PROVERB. (The paragraph-long story uses this as a theme, but doesn't involve parsnips--ed.) From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Wed Nov 27 09:06:52 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:06:52 +0100 Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) Message-ID: Oh no, "nage" has nothing to do with buttocks. "À la nage" literally means "swimming", and in the kitchen it means "boiled in a court-bouillon" (in a broth of water, white wine and spices) when cooking fish, lobsters, etc. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:40 AM Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) > NAGE > > From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 74, col. 3: > > ...and an entree of wild-mushroom ravioli in a fish-free black-truffle "nage" (a term usually reserved for seafood broth). > > OED's revision is fast approaching "nage." A look at "nage" shows a disaster. It's an obscure word meaning "buttocks." > There were 469 hits for "nage" and "restaurant" on the Dow Jones database. The earliest hit is strickly in French. The first hit on the online NEW YORK TIMES appears to be 1972. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 09:49:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:49:30 EST Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); INS acronym; Press-Avail/Dugout Message-ID: NAGE--Yes, I was just kidding around with "buttock." But that's the only thing OED has!...Sorry for that "strictly" typo. INS ACRONYM--From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 52, col. 2: They kidded about alternative ways of reading the INS's acronym--"Incompetent and Negligent Service," "Ignoring National Security"--... (F.Y.I. ON "ACRONYM"--I plugged it into the WASHINGTON POST database, but couldn't find a single hit before the 1950s! This, in a city of VIPs, and POTUS, and the FBI and CIA and INS and many other agencies--ed.) PRESS-AVAIL/DUGOUT--From NEW YORK PRESS, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 16, col. 1: SENATE MAJORITY LEADER Tom Daschle's valedictory press conference last week got most attention for his bizarre allegation that Rush Limbaugh's discussion of his legislative record had led to death threats. Lee remarked on was the more run-of-the-mill piffle that he spouted throughout this "press-avail," as we used to call them (or "dugout," as they're called in the Washington slang of the moment). From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 27 12:00:24 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:00:24 -0500 Subject: tort reform, etc. -- OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: What follows is off-topic -- delete now if you choose. ****************** I contend that the following statement, from a recent ADS-L posting, is a rash generalization at best, and is arguably untrue. It is pure political rhetoric or demagoguery, however one prefers to call it: >> a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the >long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, >health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate >abuses go unchecked. << The above is no more true than one saying that the Democratic Party agenda calls for the revolutionary overthrow of the federal government, or for the abolition of all US corporations. Such generalizations as those above are misguided, and should not go unchallenged -- hence this posting. Personally, I favor some form of tort reform (and a flat tax, and other "Republican" issues), but at the same time I also believe that Medicare and SS are necessary and important, and am sure that they will never be trashed -- not by the US Congress, at least. The Clean Air and Water acts are critically important, and have been largely effective, though we must be ever vigilant for cheaters, and prosecute them severely. I feel that Enron and similar abuses should be severely punished. btw, I am registered as an Independent. Frank Abate abatefr at earthlink.net From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 14:14:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:14:36 EST Subject: Chop Suey (1886)... Message-ID: In a message dated 11/26/02 8:54:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 5 October 1942, Pg. 10, col. 3: > > _Fortune Cakes: A Threat to a Noble Art_ > (...) The wisecrack has invaded the folded-up "fortune cookies" that are > served with tea in the chop suey houses. (...) Nice hit. The earliest I've been able to find was in the 1950's, Cyril M. Kornbluth's short story "MS Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie". They don't make chop suey like that any more! > From a letter sent to the WASHINGTON POST, 21 November 1948, pg. S11: > > Regarding the question of N. L. on "trick or treat": I lived in Washington > from 1817-1938 and since then, in Arlington. Previously, I had lived in > some 20 other towns and cities and I never saw nor heard of the begging > practice until about 1936. Please tell me that you made an accurate transcription and the "1817" was in the original. > WASHINGTON POST FOOD MISC. > > HUISH PUPPY--The first hit is the late date of 24 March 1938, pg. X13. MWCD10 gives "ca. 1918". A proposed date in the FDR administration is amusing, since (according to A. Merriman Smith _Thank You Mr. President_) FDR ate exactly one hush puppy in his entire life. That one was smuggled into his residence despite the objections of his cook, who refused to let such "peasant food" be served to the President. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Nov 27 15:56:19 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: chat-room shorthand satire Message-ID: more fine reportage from the Onion - http://www.theonion.com/onion3844/infograph_3844.html -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ Clear writers assume, with a pessimism born of experience, that whatever isn't plainly stated the reader will invariably misconstrue. -- John R. Trimble From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 16:17:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:17:11 EST Subject: McLawsuit Message-ID: McLAWSUIT--"McLawsuit and the Batt;e for the American Soul" is in today's NEW YORK SUN, 27 November 2002, pg. 7. No "tart lawyer" or any other slang is in the article. 1917--That date on the "trick or treat" posting should read, obviously, 1917 (not 1817). SIMULACRUM--That same NEW YORK SUN architecture critic gave us another "simulacrum" the other day. I remember a publication that had a "feckless" fetish. Maybe I should tell both sources to switch words? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 27 17:01:29 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:01:29 -0800 Subject: Word for Saddam Message-ID: There's no particular point to this message except to share an utterance that members of this list might get a kick out of. On the news last night, a local TV station was interviewing a 19-year-old from Portland who had joined the Marines right out of high school and was training at Camp Pendleton (CA) for urban warfare. Asked how he felt about Saddam Hussein, he said he didn't know much about him but that if what people said was true, "I guess he's kinda heinous." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 27 17:05:48 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:05:48 -0800 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: <212569.1038387689@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Or as Bill and Ted would have said "He's most non-non-heinous" allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > There's no particular point to this message except to share an utterance > that members of this list might get a kick out of. > > On the news last night, a local TV station was interviewing a 19-year-old > from Portland who had joined the Marines right out of high school and was > training at Camp Pendleton (CA) for urban warfare. Asked how he felt about > Saddam Hussein, he said he didn't know much about him but that if what > people said was true, "I guess he's kinda heinous." > > Peter Mc. > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 17:34:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:34:25 EST Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/02 7:00:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > Personally, I favor...a flat tax Before you decided you favored the "flat tax", did you ponder on Nixon's Law: "Every change to the tax code helps somebody and hurts somebody." Never heard of Nixon's Law? Of course not. I just now invented the name. Why give the honor of the name to President Nixon (who, incidentally, and to the surprise of a certain contributor to ADS-L, did more for the environment than any other US President except perhaps his fellow Republican Theodore Roosevelt)? Because while many other politicians have pondered this Law, only Mr. Nixon ever actually designed a tax based on this Law. Specifically early in his administration he proposed replacing the existing welfare system with a "Negative Income Tax." I will grant that the idea of a Negative Income Tax quickly passed into oblivion, forgotten even by Nixon's supporters. I will cheerfully grant that the very speed with which it was forgotten is strong evidence that it was a Bad Idea to begin with. However, that is beside the point. Nixon should receive credit for having made an imaginative (albeit eminently forgettable) proposal to use the very philosophy of the tax system in order to help the citizenry of the United States. Come to think of it...had the Negative Income Tax been put into effect, should those people receiving money from the Federal Government under this system be referred to as "taxpayers"? - James A. Landau P.S. Come to think of it, the Negative Income Tax had a very un-GOP philosophical basis. Putting Welfare under Revenue implies that Welfare is a purely financial transaction---"Mr. X is entitled to a payment from the government because his income is such-and-such"---and also implies that non-financial incentives, or disencentives, to get a job are not relevant. Treating Welfare as a Topic Unto Itself (or in President Reagans very felicitous metaphor, "safety net") gives you a lot more flexibility in thinking how to implement a welfare system, e.g. you now have the philosophical freedom to argue for---or against---requiring welfare recipients to work. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 20:16:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:16:30 -0500 Subject: Bugs on a Log (1962, 1980) Message-ID: The Donnell Library (West 53rd Street) is still open on Mondays, and David Shulman has been going to it. I didn't think it had anything I wanted. Shulman checked out the Children's Room and said I might be interested in the SUBJECT INDEX TO CHILDREN'S MAGAZINES, from 1948. I looked under "cooking" and "food" and other entries. No "sloppy joe" was in the title of an article. I'm sure it's somewhere, though. You can't tell everything from, say, a "picnic lunch" title. The following two are the closest I came to "ants on a log." September 1962, JACK AND JILL, pg. 37: _Peanut-Butter Specials_ (...) _Stuffed Celery_ To prepare an after-school snack, blend four tablespoons of peanut butter with two tablespoons of mayonnaise. Wash and dry several stalks of fresh celery. Now spread the peanut-butter mixture very thickly inside the curve of the celery. April 1980, HUMPTY DUMPTY, pg. 36: _Bug on a Log_ (...) (Pg. 37--ed.) HOW TO FIX: Celery stalks cut in 5-inch strips Peanut butter Raisins Small carrot slices WHAT TO MIX: Fill celery stalks with peanut butter. Stick two raisins in peanut butter at one end of celery stick so that they look like eyes. Use a tiny slice of carrot for a mouth and there you have it--a tasty little bug on a log! (O.T. HEY, PROQUEST PEOPLE! WHEN IS _JACK AND JILL_ GOING ONLINE??--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 20:31:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:31:00 -0500 Subject: Regional Food in U. S. ONE (1938) Message-ID: AMERICAN GUIDE SERIES U. S. ONE MAINE TO FLORIDA Compiled and written by the Federal Writers' Project of the WOrks Progress Administration Sponsored by the U.S. No. 1 Highway Asssociation New York: Modern Age Books 1938 Pg. XIX: MAINE APPLE FRITTERS... APPLE SLUMP OLD-FASHIONED PAN DOWDY STEAMED SUET PUDDING BAKED INDIAN PUDDING WOODS-STYLE PLANKED GAME FISH WOODS-STYLE BAKED GAME FISH 1743 POLOE RED FLANNEL HASH SOUSED CLAMS CLAM BAKE BOILED PIES EGGS CANADIAN ROAST VENISON NEW HAMPSHIRE BLANC MANGE Pg. XX: LOBSTER ROLL PEPPER STEAK SANDWICHES FRIED CLAMS FISH AND CLAM CHOWDER CODFISH BALLS CRANBERRY TURNOVERS MASSACHUSETTS BOSTON BAKED BEANS BOSTON BROWN BREAD NEW ENGLAND CHOWDER SUCCOTASH BAKED INDIAN PUDDING PARKER HOUSE ROLLS RHODE ISLAND JOHNNY CAKE CLAM CAKES CLAM CHOWDER WHITPOT PUDDING BROWN BREAD INDIAN APPLE PUDDING OLD-FASHIONED MOLASSES COOKIES CLAM BAKE Pg. XXI: CONNECTICUT BROILED LOBSTER SHORE DINNER CLAM BAKES SQUASH PIE MINCE PIE COWSLIP ORDANDELION GREENS BAKING POWDER BISCUITS CLAM CHOWDER PUMPKIN PIE BAKED WOODCHUCK ROAST RACCOON (Fred Shapiro's favorite--ed.) RHUBARB PIE BAKED SPARE RIBS NEW ENGLAND BOILED DINNER NEW YORK OYSTER STEW SOFT-SHELL CLAMS CAMP FIRESWEET POTATOES BLUSHING BUNNY (We have this every night in New York City--ed.) POST ROAD PUDDING (Ten out of ten New Yorkers wouldn't be able to find Post Road on a map--ed.) Pg. XXI: UPSIDE DOWN CAKE BROILED T-BONE STEAK NEW JERSEY SUCCOTASH BEACH PLUM JAM NEW JERSEY CLAM CHOWDER BULLY CLAM CHOWDER CAPE MAY CLAM CHOWDER SNAPPER SOUP SNAPPER STEW PLANKED SHAD PICKLED EELS AND MUSSELS THE LARGEST HOT DOG IN THE WORLD: a New Jersey invention. PENNSYLVANIA Pg. XXIII: KARTUFFLE GLACE LENTIL SOUP FAGGOTS FROIS OR WELSH PANCAKES SOUSE SCHNITZ UN KNEPP PORK FRITTERS APPLE BUTTER PHILADELPHIA SCRAPPLE SAUERKRAUT ANDDUMPLINGS PIGS' KNUCKLES WITH SAUERKRAUT AND DUMPLINGS SHOO-FLY MARYLAND MARYLAND BISCUITS MARYLAND FRIED CHICKEN TIPSY PARSON EGGNOG SOFT CRABS CREAMED HOMINY LADY BALTIMORE CAKE Pg. XXIV PLANKED SHAD SALLY LUNN STUFFED HAM BRAISED MUSKRAT SWEET POTAO SOUTHERN KOSSUTH CAKE DIAMOND-BACK TERRAPIN VIRGINIA CORN PONE CORN DODGER ASH CAKE CRACKLING BREAD SPOON AND BATTER BREADS BRUNSWICH STEW TURNIP GREENS AND COLLARDS FRIED HERRING HERRING CAKES FRIED APPLE PIE SMITHFIELD HAM Pg. XXV: NORTH CAROLINA CHICKEN BRUNSWICK STEW BARBECUED CHICKEN BEATEN BISCUITS SWEET POTATO BISCUITS BAKED HAM SUCCOTASH PEACH AND OTHER SHORTCAKES TIPSY CAKE SALLY WHITE CAKE SWEET PICKLED PEACHES BRANDIED PEACHES WINE JELLY SOUTH CAROLINA SCRAPPLE PERSIMMON PUDDING SWEET POTATOES SWEET POTATO BISCUITS SWEET POTATO PONE SWEET POTATO PUDDING JELLY PIE (Gotta go!) From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Nov 27 20:38:33 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" in 1756 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for all the help on this. I asked for a search of specifically Westlaw because that's the one database that I don't have access to that I thought might help in this case. I had already found the ones in LOC and Lexis, including the 1756 courtmartial of Dekeyser where it states he acted "inconsistent with character of a gentlemen" and one 5 days later that states he behaved "in a manner unbecoming." I had even gotten the Articles of War so as to see what the 23rd one that he was in breach of said before I asked for assistance. I was simply hoping Westlaw would go earlier. My bad. Next time I'll be more specific so there's no "double" effort. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 14:40:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:40:17 EST Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/2002 9:08:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dcamp911 at juno.com writes: > the Earned Income Credit...is esentially Nixon's idea of the negative > income tax Thank you for the information, which I was not aware of. I seriously doubt that Nixon dreamed up a "Negative Income Tax" on his own. Rather, some economist or writer came up with the idea, and Nixon and/or some of his advisors thought it was worth implementing. It is also possible that whoever promoted the idea of the current Earned Income Credit read the same paper or whatever that Nixon did, or more likely a more recent rehash of the same paper. That is, the most probable thing is that Nixon's NIT and the current EIC have the same ancestor, and the EIC is a cousin rather than a child of the NIT. It would be an interesting exercise for some economic historian to chase down the origins of the terms "NIT" and "EIC". There is a corollary to Nixon's Law which goes, "The bottom bracket of the income tax is part of the welfare system." That is, when you are designing any progressive tax, the decision where to place the bottom bracket, in fact the bottom few brackets, is made not on revenue considerations but by asking "just what is the government going to be doing with people who have negligible income?". This corollary holds true even for a "flat tax". Consider Mr. X whose earned income last year was $500. Are you planning to hit his $500 with the flat tax, or are you going to write your flat tax law so that it only kicks in at say $10,000 income? The first option seems unncessarily cruel. The second option, if adopted, has converted your pristine flat tax into a progressive tax. This is why I made the statement that a flat tax is in violation of Nixon's Law. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 15:26:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:26:54 EST Subject: "I'm From Missouri" (long, full 1897 WP article) Message-ID: I'll type the article in full that I found Monday in the Library of Congress, using WASHINGTON POST full text. It is a year earlier than the 1898 Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha, which had the slogan on buttons. It's also a year eaerlier than the song (by NY songwriters). We can wait for the ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH to go full text some time in the next five years or so, but I'd already looked there. From the articles I got, no one knew the origin. The Missouri Historical Society has newspaper clippings, and again, I couldn't do better. We now have the huge Making of America databases, the American Memory database, the huge American Periodical Series in full text, full text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, full text of THE NATION, full text of the NEW YORK TIMES, and full text of the WASHINGTON POST. We can wait a little bit for full text of the BROOKLYN EAGLE, LOS ANGELES TIMES, and CHICAGO TRIBUNE. That should be enough to declare that this is it. The origin of the motto of the State of Missouri. Gerald Cohen should round up our stuff, add it to the work of the late Donald Lance, and publish a volume with the University of Missouri Press. Just a suggestion. We can even tell the press, and you all know how successful I am at that. Sorry in advance for typing mistakes...I'll go to Philadelphia in a few days to get the original article...On a prior trip to Philadelphia, I'd found out that the Willard Van Diver "Five O'Clock Club" dinner (supposedly, the origin of the motto) was held in 1900. From the WASHINGTON POST, 9 May 1897, pg. 27: _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._ _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._ >From the Philadelphia Times. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me." That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou. His face and hands were badly scrateched where they had come in contact with the sharp gravel, there was a bruise over one eye where his head has struck against a fragment of Pike's Peak, one elbow felt "like a tarnation wildcat had clawed it," and there was a general feeling of soreness "pretty much everywhere," as he explained it to the doctor, but he was alive and thankful. John had jumped from the platform of a Colorado Midland passenger train at the entrance to the first tunnel above Manitou, while laboring under a mistake as to the destination of the train, which appeared to be plunging into the mountain side. "You don't catch me lettin' 'em run me into the ground with any of their gol darned trains, when I've got a through ticket to Cripple Creek in my pocket," he remarked as the doctor took another stitch in his scalp and adjusted an artistic court plaster shingle on the swelling dome over his right eye. "I'm pretty badly peeled up, but you bet I'm still on top, and that's where I'm going to stay." And John Duffer took a good-sized bite out of a mammoth piece of navy plug which he dug up out of his pocket and relapsed into momentary silence, though his jaws worked faster than ever. "You see, Doc," said the Missourian, as he deluged the gas log in the doctor's fireplace with the overflow from his lips, "I was a-going over to Cripple Creek to see what those gold mines look like, where they shovel up the stuff into a wagon and let her go at that, and find chunks of gold in the rocks. I had my grip and a bucket of grub in the car, and just after the train left the depot I went out on the platform to look at the mountains. Down on one side was a holler, and up on tother side was a hill that I couldn't see to the top of, and on all sides was mountains, and I couldn't see how the train was ever going to dodge them all. The little shelf the train was running on kept wiggling through them hills like a snake in a plow field, and then I looked ahead and saw where a hill had been split plumb down to the ground to let the railroad through, and that was all right, because I could see daylight on the other side. And then when the train went through that split in the hill it switched around kinder to one side, and I could see the track ahead of the engine, and then I saw a big white mountain all covered with snow sticking clear up into the clouds, and nobody knows how much farther, and the next thing I knowed the engine give a screech like she was most scared to death, and I looked quick and the whole business was going plunk into a hole in the ground. And then I jumped. Came near getting killed, but I fooled them that trip. You don't catch me running up against any game that I don't know nothing about, and I ain't going into anything that I don't know the way out of. Then I came down town to get patched up, and I'm going to Cripple Creek some other way, even if I have to walk." "And what became of the train?" asked the doctor, who had been feeling of Duffer's ribs to se if they were all in place. "Didn't they stop for you?" "Stop nothing. The last I saw of the darned thing it was still going into the hole and I didn't care whether it ever stopped or not. I wasn't on it. Say, do you reckon I could get my bucket back if they get them out?" It took considerable time and the testimony of several witnesses to convince Mr. Duffer that the entire train and its contents were not hopelessly buried in the interior of Pike's Peak, and quite a little crowd accompanied him to the station, where Agent Dunaway telegraphed to Cascade to return one lunch pail and grip labeled John Duffer, Pike County, Mo. And as he left the station to fill up on "free soda biling right out of the crowd" Mr. Duffer explained, once more: "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped. I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 15:54:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:54:56 EST Subject: Regional Food in U. S. ONE (1938); O.T. Christmas in Kenya Message-ID: This continues a post of the regional food described in U. S. ONE (1938), published by the Works Progress Administration. My half hour session at the NYPL computer was up. Many of the foods listed, such as Connecticut's "Roast Raccoon" and New York's "Blushing Bunny" and "Post Road Pudding," will be impossible to find today. Even the latest volume of DARE has no entry for "Post Road." Pg. XXVI: (SOUTH CAROLINA--ed.) JELLY PIE... CAROLINA OPOSSUM CAROLINA OPOSSUM AND SWEET POTATOES DEVILED BAKED HAM FISH STEW HOMINY WAFFLES CARCKLING CORNBREAD GEORGIA 'POSSUM AND 'TATERS SOUSE MEAT TURNIP GREENS CORN PONE SORGHUM PUDDING LEATHER BREECHES: dried green snap beans, soaked overnight and boiled with salt bacon. BARBECUE BRUNSWICK STEW FRIED PIES BOILED PEANUTS FLORIDA WAMPUS OR HUSH PUPPIES: corn meal scalded in ilk, mixed with egg, baking powder, and onion, and cooked in the grease of frying fish. In early Flordia days when fish were fried in large pans otu of doors, the savory odor caused the family's pack of hounds to whine and yelp with hunger. As a means of quieting the dogs, the cook would hastily scald corn meal, pat it into cakes without salt or shortening, and cook it in the grease of frying fish. (Pg. XXVII--ed.) When done, it was thrown to the dogs, after which silence prevailed; hence the name, hush puppies. SWAMP SALAD SWAMP CABBAGE COMPTIE RATTLESNAKE SNACKS RATTLESNAKE ENTREE FROMAJARDIS SEA TURTLE FLORIDA GOPHER: sliced into steaks and fried over a low fire. (In Florida a gopher is a land turtle.) GUAVA JELLY STONE CRAB COQUINA COCKTAIL CRAWFISH ENCHILADO ARROZ CON POLLO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T. CHRISTMAS IN KENYA The next stop in the world tour was planned to be Christmas in Kenya. As you know, a site in Kenya has just been attacked. Then again, there's a chance that New York could be attacked again. There's no certainty that I'd be safer in New York or in Kenya. Kenya was last attacked in 1998. I felt that the country deserves my tourism dollars (a substantial part of its economy), and that its citizens shouldn't suffer for the actions of a few. There was no insurance available for terrorism, so I stand to lose my entire trip expenses. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Nov 28 20:36:39 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:36:39 -0600 Subject: "I'm From Missouri"--1897; Congratulations to Barry Popik Message-ID: >At 10:26 AM -0500 11/28/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I'll type the article in full that I found Monday in the Library of >Congress, using WASHINGTON POST full text. > It is a year earlier than the 1898 Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha, >which had the slogan on buttons. It's also a year earlier than the song (by >NY songwriters). [snip] ******* Congratulations to Barry for his discovery of the 1897 attestations of "I'm from Missouri, you've got to show me." He had already conclusively disproved the frequently-given etymology of the expression deriving from a speech given ca. 1900 by Missouri congressman Willard Vandiver at a Philadelphia banquet; Vandiver was there in connection with a visit by a congressional delegation to the city's naval yard. The exact date of that banquet speech hadn't been found until Barry discovered it: January 27, 1900. Meanwhile, Barry spotted several pre-1900 attestations of the expression, so any chance of Vandiver originating the expression is eliminated. At most, Vandiver helped popularize it. It is significant that the 1897 newspaper article with the "show-me" expression involves a mine. The likeliest story about the origin of the expression concerns an 1896 strike of miners in Leadville, Colorado, for which Missouri miners were brought in as strikebreakers. The mining techniques were a bit different in Colorado from those in (Southwest) Missouri, and the Missouri miners sometimes had to be shown the techniques. "He's from Missouri, you've got to show him" therefore began in reference to this need to be shown, and it quickly spread above-ground as an insult to the Missourians, given the hatred directed at them for their strike-breaking. When the expression reached Missouri, Missourians gave it their own spin (tough-minded skepticism), although it retained overtones of an insult for at least some time. Also, Barry is correct that the "show-me" material we've already printed in scattered fashion should be compiled and published. I'll see what I can do about this. Meanwhile, two selected references for this topic are: 1) Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen: "More on 'I'm From Missouri, You've Got To Show Me': William Vandiver's Jan. 27, 1900 Speech in Philadelphia And Use Of The Expression in Omaha, 1898," in _Studies in Slang, part VI_ (edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry A. Popik, (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 24), Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang Verlag, 1999; pp.105-128. 2) Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen: "Story Behind Missouri's Nickname 'The Show-Me State'." _Proceedings of the 19th International Congress of Onomastic Sciences_, held at Aberdeen, Scotland, August 4-11, 1996, edited by W.F.H. Nicolaisen, vol. 2, pp. 285-289. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri From harview at MONTANA.COM Fri Nov 29 04:36:30 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:36:30 -0700 Subject: Tarts (was Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) ) In-Reply-To: <148.36dbd16.2b150aa8@aol.com> Message-ID: O.T. - Might I suggest that those of you interested in the topic of 'tart lawyers' subscribe to the ezine at ? Named after the plaintiff in the McDonald's coffee case, this semi-regular mailing provides both flagrant examples of outrageous 'tartism' and thought-provoking discussions of cases that seem at first glance to be tarty but are not. The author maintains a list which debunks many of the urban-legend tart cases. Highly recommended. Scott Swanson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 05:28:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:28:17 EST Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid, Dog Food, Jelly Doughnut (food slang) Message-ID: PRETZELS From the clippings files in Temple University is this letter: A. R. Hofheinz 8330 Cottage Street Phila. 36, Penna. Mr. Theo Wilson Bulletin Staff Dear Sir: I have just read your very interesting article about the 90th Brithday of the Pretzel. I thought you might be interested to know that the first pretzel baked in Philadelphia was in 1837 by a man named Frederick Trefz at 703-705 New Market Street, in the Northern Liberties. "Old TImers" will, no doubt, remember that Bakery. I, myself, worked there from 1897 to 1900, for the successor to Mr. Trefz, whose name was Philip Becker. He took the bakery over in 1850. He told me several times that the said Mr. Trefz baked both soft and hard (or cracker pretzels) pretzels from the beginning. I also know that soft and hard petzels were baked in Reading in the 1850's by two men named Mayer. Originally pretzels were baked in the Southwestern part of Germany. I trust this little information may be of some interest to you. Yours truly, A. R. Hofheinz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DOUGHNUT DOLLY & JELLY DOUGHNUT Not in the RHHDAS. From the clippings files in Temple University, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 8 January 1967: _Zoomies and Grunts Create_ _New GI Jargon in Vietnam_ Saigon, Jan. 7--(AP)--(...) Red Cross recreation girls are "doughnut dollies." The chief doughnut dolly at the 1st Infantry Division is "doughnut six" and her assistants have numbers from five to one. One slim girl is "doughnut one-half." A red-haired girl is "jelly doughnut." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DOG FOOD From the Temple University clippings files. The RHHDAS has 1945 for dog food ("food, esp. canned corned-beef hash, thought to resemble dog food"). From the (PHILADELPHIA) POST, 28 November 1940: _HERE'S SOME LIGHT_ _ON CAMP LINGO (...) By The Associated Press (...) _Dog Food_--Emergency rations, to be eaten "only after you've starved to death," cynics insist. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RED LEAD, SIDEARMS, SEA DUST, SEAWEED I used the LOC California newspaper index. From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 15 June 1941, pg. 5, col. 4: _Slanguage_ _Army Camps_ _Developing a_ _Dictionary_ (...) "Snafu" means "situation normal, all fuddled up." (...) "Red Lead" is tomatoes, tomato sauce or ketchup. Cream and sugar or salt and pepper are "sidearms." Salt, alone, is "sea-dust." (...) Spinach is "seaweed." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ARMORED COW From the LOC's California newspaper index, under "slang." This excellent long article will have to be reprinted in full. It beats the RHHDAS by a few months on "armored cow," but it has a lot more. 1 June 1941, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, pg. H5, col. 7: _WILL CONNOLLY SAYS_ _SPORTS HELP TO_ _MAKE OUR TONGUE_ _MORE DESCRIPTIVE_ The draftees assigned to Camp Claiborne, in Louisiana, got out a glossary of slang terms to describe everyday things in army life, we read the other day in a United Press story. No doubt, the boys at Fort Ord and Camp McQuaide, in our State, know what the Louisiana lads are talking aoubt when they call canned milk an "armored cow," and the white fish a "sewer trout," but civilians are puzzled by the lingo without the aid of a dictionary of vulgarisms. The Louisiana lads call prunes "army strawberries"; chicken, "crow"; coffee, "battery acid"; hot cereals, "North Dakota rice"; foot inspection, a "kennel show"; insects, "motorized dandruff"; steel helmets, "Mae West bonnets," and machine guns, "Chicago atomizers." There may be regional variation in army slang, but all of it is good (illegible--ed.) American tongue, but as the soldier talk in the last World war vitalized the language, In California, for instance, salmon or bass is served to soldiers instead of whitefish common to the Midwest and the South, but we are sure the boys call it "sewer trout," as they do at Camp Claiborne. We don't know how sedate public speakers could open their mouths if it were not for the inventiveness of the younger generation in coining phrases. The draftees are all of the athletic age, and much of their breezy language is borrowed from the sports field. You bald-headed Congressman has to desert classic rhetoric and resort to sports language to put over his point when running for re-election. It's all well and good to flatter the intelligence of the electorate with Shakespearean quotations, but when it comes down to brass tacks the most polished orator will lapse into "saved by the bell," "below the belt," "out of bounds," "punch drunk," "goal-line stand," "stymied," "foul ball" and other expressions borrowed from sports, that his listeners understand him readily. Unless it be army life, no other activity on the American scene is a greater contributor to the elasticity of the mother tongue than sport. Sports has a jargon all its own, but eventually the esoteric expressions creep into the vocabulary of the average citizen and are accepted by the solemn compilers of the Oxford Dictionary. _BASEBALL'S EXPRESSIONS BEST_ Baseball and boxing, professional sports though they be, have a down-to-earth saltiness that is causing the stiff Anglo-Saxon to change so violently that H. L. Mencken's epic tome in the American Language, considered new when it was printed, is out of date and needs revision. Whenever yuou speak of "on the button" you are leaning on a prize-fight term. Whenever you say "just under the wire" you are borrowing from horse racing. Whenever you say "dubbed" in the sense of gumming up the works you are relying upon golf, and whenever you ask for "time out" to gather your thoughts you are sponging on basketball and football. Whenever you "warm up" for a "rally" you are doing what the tennis players do. Whenever you cheat a little and "beat the gun" you are commiting a sin sometimes done in track and field. Of all sports, we think that baseball has the most quaint and richest expressions. The young men at Camp Claiborner must have been bush baseball players in their civilian days, otherwise we cannot account for the sprightly imagination that provoked them to call army coffee "battery acid." The Readers' Digest, a condensed magazine which gives a page or two every month to cute expressions by Chistopher Morley, Somerset Maugham, Dorothy Parker and SInclair Lewis, ought to turn its attention to the way unlettered ball players say things. _JUST A FEW COMMON ONES_ In the ball players' lingo, a "banana stalk" is a bat with poor wood; a "barber" is a talkative teammate; a "contractor's back yard" is a rough field; a "boxcar town" is a jerkwater visited for an echibition; a "can of c orn" is a high, lazy fly; a "cigar box" is a small field' a "collision" is a college player; a "country fair" is a showoff (Hot Dog?--ed.); a "cup of coffee" is a short trial in the big leagues; a "Dick Smith" is a fellow who keeps to himself; an "eagle's claw" is a glove; a "clothesline" is a line drive through the infield; a "fireman" is a player who dresses fast (Not a relief pitcher?--ed); a "Gillette" is a ball thrown close to a batter's head; a "house dick" is a player who lives in the lobby; a "fishing trip" is swinging at an outside pitch; a "gulley jumper" is a train; a "mackerel" is a curve ball; "fish cakes" is low salary; a "Rubinoff" is a player who needs a haircut; a "Tissue Paper Tom" is an athlete easily hurt; "Tools of Ignorance" are the catcher's equipment; a "butterlfy" is a knuckle ball; a "Broadway" is a flashy dresser; a "cockeye" is a left-handed pitcher; a "cunnythumb" is a p[itcher who throws slow balls; a "drink" is a strikeout; a "pool table" is a smooth inflield, the opposite of a "contractor's back yard"; a "Yankee Doodle" is a weak hitter; a "yodeler" is a baseline coach; a "monkey suit" is a uniform; a "rabbit ears" is a player who hears everything said in the stands; a "Black Betsy" is a big dark-colored bat; a "Texas Leaguer" is the same as a "Sheeny Mike" or a "Japanese liner" or a "Leaping Lena" or a "blooper" or a "humpback" or a "banjo" meaning a cheap fly just beyond reach of the infielders. We could go on for four or five more paragraphs to pad this essay to a Sunday length with baseball terminology, but we think you get the idea. Not every ball player is literate in the academic sense, but all of them are articulate in that they think up the most charming was to convey ideas. Unconsciously, they are making the American language more graphic, just like the selectees at Camp Claiborne, who spoof condensed milk as "armored cow." Inelegant, but descriptive. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 06:11:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:11:33 EST Subject: Cosmoline, Punk, Red Lead, Sand, Slum (Army Slang, 1940) Message-ID: This list of 1940 is a year earlier than most of our WWII slang lists, such as Kendall (1941). It comes from the Temple University clippings files (military folder). From the (PHILADELPHIA) EVENING LEDGER, 20 July 1940: _Army Has Language_ _All Its Own,_ _From "Sand" to "Slum"_ "Pass the cosmoline and sand; I'm going to try to improve this slum." If you are among the youngsters who have applied for enlistment in the United States Army in the recruiting station in the Custom House, you will more than likely hear this expression at your first mess on Uncle Sam. What is really meant is, "Pass the butter and sugar. I'm going to try to improve this stew." But, soldiers, like other men in any socialized profession, like to use a language of their own. _Defines "Brass Hats"_ And what a colorful jargon it is! We are indebted to Colonel Frederick Schoenfeld, commanding officer of the recruiting station, for the following terms: "Brass hats"--staff officers. The Colonel would not say so, but the connotation of the term isn't always very complimentary, as in the case of the widely known controversy between the late "Billy" Mitchell and his superior officers. "High ball"--salute to a superior officer. "Guardhouse lawyer"--something like a sea lawyer, a man without authority who is always telling his fellows what their rights are and who usually is a trouble-maker. "Flying time" and "bunk fatigue"--sleeping period. "Jaw bone"--credit. It's one of the most well-used terms in the army and means doing a lot of talking to borrow anything from a cigarette to a dollar. "Sand"--sugar. "Red lead"--catsup. "Tin hat"--trench helmet. "Dodo" and "Kiwi"--men in the air corps who don't fly. "Grease monkey"--a mechanic. _Pass a Piece of "Punk"_ "Punk"--bread. "Butch" and "old man"--commanding officer. "Top kick"--first sergeant. "Gravel agitator" and "red leg"--artillerymen. "Scrambled eggs"--brass decorations on the cap visors of officers ranking as majors or better. "Shavetail"--second lieutenant. "Bobtail"--one how has been dishonorably discharged from the army. "Go over the hill"--to desert. "Gold fish"--canned salmon. "Bean day"--Wednesdays and Saturdays. "Dog robber"--a ranking officer's orderly. "Juice"--any liquid food. _Guess Who's Gertrude"_ "Gertrude"--an office clerk. "Pilll roller"--an elisted man in the medical department. "Slum"--principal article of food at a meal, usually used, however, to denote stew. "Pocket lettuce"--paper money. "Lower the boom"--to strike another person. "Slum burner"--the cook. "Hay burner"--a horse. "Chili bowl"--a haircut. "Half gone"--to be hungry. And many, many unprintable ones. In addition, each post or local detachment often coins slang terms of its own, which are not generally used in the army as a whole. _"Wounded" by "Cognac"_ A well-known one heard along the Philadelphia waterfront for many years was "Cognac shrapnel." It was coined by a well-known stevedoring official who died here recently. A veteran of the Spanish-American War and the Boxer Rebellion, this man has been wounded several times in the service of his country but had a comparatively safe job during the last war and used to like to kid his fellow officers who had similar duties. "Are you one of the boys who got cognac shrapnel during the last World War?" he often asked. It seems that the detachment lived in a very comfortable chateau in France and the famous French liquor was always plentiful; hence, the unusual "casualties," which were never listed on the record books. JOSEPH W. DRAGONETTI. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 27 02:42:12 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:42:12 -0500 Subject: California research Message-ID: Tensing of lax vowel before {sh} common in our area (Appalachian Ohio) but stigmatized; fish, special, bush are the words stereotyped for this pronunciation as feesh, spacial, boosh _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 29 12:11:42 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 Subject: Warp speed Message-ID: "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, who used it and when? Thanks. Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 14:12:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:12:47 EST Subject: Warp speed Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/2002 7:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes: > Does anyone know if > "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, who > used it and when? THe OED's science fiction words Web site http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml shows nothing in print prior to 1979! However, "warp" is cited in 1936 and "space warp" in 1935. (I'm pretty sure 1979 can be antedated----I remember a letter in the Brass Tacks (letters to the editor) column in Analog Science Fiction, most likely while the original Star Trek series was on TV, which analyzed the values given for warp speed and said they were too small.) I once owned a book _The Making of Star Trek_ by one Stephen E. Whitfield which gives a fair amount of detail on how Gene Roddenberry came up with the various pieces that make up the Star Trek universe. "Warp speed" was one of the topics discussed, and I have a vague memory that Whitfield said, or implied, that Roddenberry invented the term. - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Nov 29 14:53:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:53:16 -0500 Subject: Warp speed In-Reply-To: <19d.cb2a9fc.2b18cfdf@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 09:12:47AM -0500, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 11/29/2002 7:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes: > > > Does anyone know if > > "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, > who > > used it and when? > > THe OED's science fiction words Web site > > http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml > > shows nothing in print prior to 1979! However, "warp" is cited in 1936 and > "space warp" in 1935. > > (I'm pretty sure 1979 can be antedated----I remember a letter in the Brass > Tacks (letters to the editor) column in Analog Science Fiction, most likely > while the original Star Trek series was on TV, which analyzed the values > given for warp speed and said they were too small.) > > I once owned a book _The Making of Star Trek_ by one Stephen E. Whitfield > which gives a fair amount of detail on how Gene Roddenberry came up with the > various pieces that make up the Star Trek universe. "Warp speed" was one of > the topics discussed, and I have a vague memory that Whitfield said, or > implied, that Roddenberry invented the term. While I don't have the book handy, we did read through _Making of Star Trek_ and I think I recall that it only had _warp factor,_ not _warp speed._ We may have additional stuff that hasn't made it to the SF page, but I think that a lot of the early things we had were for these other forms, like _warp factor_ or _go to warp_ but not _warp speed_ itself. Jesse Sheidlower OED From tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 30 01:26:05 2002 From: tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM (christen stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:26:05 +0000 Subject: Word for Saddam Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 30 01:36:23 2002 From: tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM (christen stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:36:23 +0000 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 02:05:15 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:05:15 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern /r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. Herb Stahlke -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of christen stevens Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a "worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? christen stevens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 02:15:24 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:15:24 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning "shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to Saddam rather than to his deeds. Herb Stahlke "Heiness" is one of the more interesting words I have heard to describe Saddam. It makes me wonder if anyone else has described him in that way. christen stevens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 30 03:22:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC In-Reply-To: <187.11d6a2c2.2b1784d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:40 AM -0500 11/28/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 11/27/2002 9:08:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >dcamp911 at juno.com writes: > >> the Earned Income Credit...is esentially Nixon's idea of the negative >> income tax > >Thank you for the information, which I was not aware of. > >I seriously doubt that Nixon dreamed up a "Negative Income Tax" on his own. >Rather, some economist or writer came up with the idea, and Nixon and/or some >of his advisors thought it was worth implementing. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, quite possibly. (Later a U.S. Senator from N. Y.) --Larry >It is also possible that >whoever promoted the idea of the current Earned Income Credit read the same >paper or whatever that Nixon did, or more likely a more recent rehash of the same paper. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 30 03:41:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:41:47 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:15 PM -0500 11/29/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning >"shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 >hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were >a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is >a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to >Saddam rather than to his deeds. > Hasn't it been the case for some time that "heinous" has generalized to a universal slang term of deprecation? I just checked that intuition with RHHDAS and found an entry for the word, listed as "student" use and glossed as 'unpleasant, objectionable , unattractive, etc." Some sample cites: 1982 U. of Tenn. student: The party shouldn't be too heinous. 1984 Algeo Stud Buds: A person who wears unusual clothing or haqs an unusual hair style [is referred to as] HANOUS [sic]. 1986 Eble Campus Slang: Heinous--anything bad, ugly, or negative. Usually refers to female: "That girl you were with was really heinous" Other glosses include 'gross', 'disgusting', 'bogus', and applications range from people, clothing, and behaviors to fast food. I'm not sure what the person characterizing Saddam as "heinous" had in mind, possibly beyond "bad". The fact that spellings range from "hanous" to "heiness" suggests that maybe the link to the original more restrictive and formal adjective has been lost or severely weakened. Larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Nov 30 03:51:11 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:51:11 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? >> >christen stevens > ~~~~~~~~ I grew up saying "warsh rag" in E Nebraska, but I'm not sure that others around there did. I do think both my parents (one b. N Ohio, the other St Louis) did. At some point I noticed that other people said "wash cloth" or "face cloth." I'm pretty sure "warsh" or "worsh" & "Warshington" were the common pronunciations among the kids I knew. A. Murie From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 04:34:20 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:34:20 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At least one of the uses that turned up in the Google search clearly meant "anus". Generalization of h-deletion? I wasn't aware of the student use of the word. Herb At 9:15 PM -0500 11/29/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning >"shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 >hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were >a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is >a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to >Saddam rather than to his deeds. > Hasn't it been the case for some time that "heinous" has generalized to a universal slang term of deprecation? I just checked that intuition with RHHDAS and found an entry for the word, listed as "student" use and glossed as 'unpleasant, objectionable , unattractive, etc." Some sample cites: 1982 U. of Tenn. student: The party shouldn't be too heinous. 1984 Algeo Stud Buds: A person who wears unusual clothing or haqs an unusual hair style [is referred to as] HANOUS [sic]. 1986 Eble Campus Slang: Heinous--anything bad, ugly, or negative. Usually refers to female: "That girl you were with was really heinous" Other glosses include 'gross', 'disgusting', 'bogus', and applications range from people, clothing, and behaviors to fast food. I'm not sure what the person characterizing Saddam as "heinous" had in mind, possibly beyond "bad". The fact that spellings range from "hanous" to "heiness" suggests that maybe the link to the original more restrictive and formal adjective has been lost or severely weakened. Larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Nov 30 06:03:12 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:03:12 -0600 Subject: "Warp speed" In-Reply-To: <20021130050022.7AC88503E@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 > From: Paul McFedries > Subject: Warp speed > > "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast > speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does > anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek > series and, if so, who used it and when? The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (John Clute and Peter Nicholls, ed.; St. Martin's Griffin, NY, 1995) has an entry for Space Warp (p. 1142-1143). "The term (along with 'hyperspace') may have been first used by John W. Campbell Jr. in _Islands in Space_ 1931 amazing stories quarterly; 1957)." Further on: "Space warp has become such a cliche in sf that it allows endless variants. One of the best known is the 'warp factor' used in Star Trek as a measure of velocity. This is illogical on all levels." Which raises the possibility that "warp speed" was _not_ used in Star Trek. (A quick look through the entry for Star Trek doesn't show anything helpful.) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Nov 30 15:24:22 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:24:22 -0500 Subject: "Warp speed" In-Reply-To: <3DE80040.27542.5CE5A8@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:03 AM 11/30/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > > > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 > > From: Paul McFedries > > Subject: Warp speed > > > > "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast > > speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does > > anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek > > series and, if so, who used it and when? > >The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (John Clute and Peter Nicholls, >ed.; St. Martin's Griffin, NY, 1995) has an entry for Space Warp (p. >1142-1143). "The term (along with 'hyperspace') may have been first >used by John W. Campbell Jr. in _Islands in Space_ 1931 amazing >stories quarterly; 1957)." > >Further on: "Space warp has become such a cliche in sf that it >allows endless variants. One of the best known is the 'warp factor' >used in Star Trek as a measure of velocity. This is illogical on all >levels." Which raises the possibility that "warp speed" was _not_ >used in Star Trek. (A quick look through the entry for Star Trek >doesn't show anything helpful.) Well, just last night I happened to catch a rerun of an early "Star Trek" show, and "warp speed" was used at least twice. Captain Kirk told whoever to "bring it up to warp speed," or words to that effect. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Nov 30 15:35:25 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:35:25 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the computer). BTW, in Minnesota in my youth, and perhaps elsewhere as well, "wash rag" was the commoners' term (and in my home), while "wash cloth" was city folks' term. At 09:05 PM 11/29/2002 -0500, you wrote: >One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of >the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, >the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but >the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. >This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly >constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even >more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern >/r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as >r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that >perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that >they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. > >Herb Stahlke > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >christen stevens > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag > > > My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? > > christen stevens > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From patty at CRUZIO.COM Sat Nov 30 16:34:48 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:34:48 -0800 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021130102533.00abe268@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: My mom's whole side of the family definitely said 'worsh rag', born & raised in Minneapolis. My younger brother picked this up from my mom (we were born & raised in Calif.). I remember having a big argument one time over 'George Worshington'. He was about 7 or so, was *really* upset over being corrected by me :} Patty At 10:35 AM 11/30/02 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to >have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still >have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In >fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western >PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio >they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the >computer). > >BTW, in Minnesota in my youth, and perhaps elsewhere as well, "wash rag" >was the commoners' term (and in my home), while "wash cloth" was city >folks' term. > >At 09:05 PM 11/29/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of >>the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, >>the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but >>the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. >>This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly >>constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even >>more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern >>/r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as >>r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that >>perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that >>they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. >> >>Herb Stahlke >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >>christen stevens >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag >> >> >> My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >>cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >>"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >>was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? >> >> christen stevens >> >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-- >> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sat Nov 30 17:04:15 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:04:15 -0800 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021130083205.023e4a00@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional) meaning? cheers - Vida. ============ TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics. A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the charge. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6 78427.story?coll=la% From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Nov 30 17:30:13 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:30:13 -0800 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then > eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or > additional) > meaning? One that instantly springs to mind is "anime." It was imported into Japanese from the English "animation" and spat back out as "anime," denoting a distinctive Japanese style of animation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 30 18:09:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:09:01 -0500 Subject: I'm From Missouri (2 May 1897); Hoggie (19 March 1944) Message-ID: Greetings from another trip to Philadelphia...I just realized that I left off Dave Wilton and Gerald Cohen from that short list of lexicographers on ADS-L. You always leave off the obvious. ------------------------------------------------------------- I'M FROM MISSOURI This was the purpose of my mini-trip today. Also, I can't get any sleep if I'm not on a bus. From the PHILADELPHIA TIMES, 2 May 1897, pg. 13, col. 7: _HE HAD NEVER_ _SEEN A TUNNEL_ _A MISSOURIAN'S BIG SCARE IN THE_ _MOUNTAINS._ >From a Correspondent of THE TIMES. COLORADO SPRINGS, April 26. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me!" (The rest is the same as the WASHINGTON POST story. I'll check out the DENVER POST tomorrow in Columbia University--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------- HOGGIE The following is the first of similar ads that ran every week. From the SOUTH PHILADELPHIA AMERICAN, 19 March 1944, pg. 6, col. 2: Get Your Italian Hoggie At _AL DE PALMA'S_ S. E. Cor. 20th & Mifflin St. "Al Is The Man Who Made The Biggest Hoggie In The World" (So it's "hoggie," as in "hog"?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------- STROMBOLI I looked in the telephone directories up to 1960. I looked under "Pizza" and "Restaurants" and "Sandwiches." There were plenty of ads for Italian places. No "stromboli"! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 30 19:19:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:19:06 -0500 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has happened since the beginning of language and the migration and intermingling of language speakers! The process isn't as sneaky as 'infiltrating' makes it sound; it's called "borrowing," and once the new words have settled into the borrowing language, they're called "loan words," that is, until they become so familiar that most people no longer realize they came from somewhere else. The perceived "threat" is just that--a groundless fear that no one can do anything about anyway. English is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a history of the English language if you can! At 09:04 AM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: >are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then >eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional) >meaning? > >cheers - Vida. > >============ > >TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport >immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are >locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their >wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics. > >A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed >of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the >flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the >charge. > >http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6 >78427.story?coll=la% From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Nov 30 21:22:47 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:22:47 -0500 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English .... Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan writes: > English is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a >history of >the English language if you can! ~~~~~~~~ "Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar." -- Eddy Peters This sig line has been appearing on posts to a couple of other lists I get. A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Nov 30 21:52:35 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:52:35 EST Subject: A smiley to appear in court! Message-ID: Currently there is an investigation and some suits filed against CSFB (Credit Suisse First Boston), charging that CSFB has been playing games with its analyst's reports. The merits of the case are not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that what appears to be key evidence is in the form of internal e-mails. Specifically, the following e-mail was cited in news reports Kiggen's e-mail conveys discomfort with the move. He said he'd keep the ''hold'' rating unless he heard more bad news from Yahoo that evening, ''not that the [conference] call wasn't scary enough.'' Further, Kiggen noted that if one of Credit Suisse's rivals won Yahoo's business in the future, ''We obviously will have missed an opportunity to raise firm's research profile and credibility; but I'm sure that won't happen.'' The note was ended with the online shorthand for a wink, a semicolon followed by a closed parenthesis. quoted at URL http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/331/business/E_mails_hint_of_CSFB_conflict-. shtml from an article by Beth Healy and Scott Bernard Nelson, Globe Staff, 11/27/2002, reprinted in at least one other newspaper (either the Philadelphia Inquirer or the Atlantic City Press, I failed to make a clipping and had to search on-line for the quote). In this particular e-mail, the wink smiley is an important part of the sentence, in that it obviously modifies or adds to what Mr. Kiggen is saying. Imagine this case going to court, and Mr. Kiggen's e-mail being introduced as a key piece of evidence. In that case the poor jurypeople are going to have to make hair-splitting determinations of just what significance is added to that one sentence by the presence of the smiley. Don't laugh. The guilty verdict in the Arthur Anderson case was reached by the jury's parsing of a similarly obscure statement by someone at Anderson. Sort of makes you wish President Clinton were practicing law. He'd be right at home convincing a jury of the meaning of that little smiley! - Jim Landau P.S. I was under the impression that the punctuation symbol ")" was a "close parenthesis", not a "closed parenthesis". From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 30 22:48:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:48:43 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021130102533.00abe268@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: #Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to #have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still #have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In #fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western #PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio #they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the #computer). "<> inverted script a"? As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/" -- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel -- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's scary. Am I misunderstanding your post? -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 30 23:31:34 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:31:34 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:48 PM 11/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >#Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to >#have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still >#have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In >#fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western >#PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio >#they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the >#computer). > >"<> inverted script a"? > >As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/" >-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel >-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And >that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's >scary. > >Am I misunderstanding your post? > >-- Mark A. Mandel Yes, you are. I mean that the 'inverted script a' is "intermediate" between low back unrounded 'regular script a' and low-mid back rounded open /O/ or 'turned c'. The merger here (and in western PA and eastern Ontario) is slightly more rounded than that in central Ohio and westwards, but not as high or round as the classic Northern open /O/ in 'caught'. Kurath and McDavid described the inverted script a of this region in 1961, as did Kenyon earlier, and several others have done so since (see my article in LVC, vol. 12 (2000)). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 00:07:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:07:11 EST Subject: Historical newspapers online Message-ID: TRICK OR TREAT--The October 1941 SATURDAY EVENING POST "trick or treat" was discussed here (by me) a long time ago. I work very hard so no one can read these things. I don't think the 1937 citation is legit, but I'll check it on Saturday. I reported the custom in New York in the 1930s, but it was not called "trick or treat." HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--The Brooklyn Public Library will make the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE available on their web site sometime next year. This will help on Coney Island stuff, from "hot dog" to "close, but no cigar." Maybe it'll have a "hero" sandwich at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. The attached is from ProQuest. The good news is that the WASHINGTON POST is now available, and the LOS ANGELES TIMES and CHICAGO TRIBUNE will soon be available. So we'll check on "Caesar Salad" and "Chicago deep-dish pizza" and "Windy City" by next year, although the Tribune will still get it wrong. The bad news is that the NEW ORLEANS TIMES-PICAYUNE and the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE won't be available by next year. The T-P would have helped my research into New Orleans foods enormously. The CHRONICLE would have had "cioppino" and "hoodlum" and "jazz." Oh well, there's also the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR. --Barry Popik Subj: RE: Historical newspapers Date: 10/31/2002 5:13:17 PM Eastern Standard Time From: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com To: Bapopik at aol.com CC: howard.merkel at il.proquest.com, michelle.harper at il.proquest.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Hello, Barry, Glad to see you like Historical Newspapers! And that you're interested in regional newspapers as well. Currently we are focusing on developing the digital versions of the key national newspapers's back files. We've just released the Washington Post in addition to the New York Times and Wall Street Journal. In November, we'll release the Christian Science Monitor. In 2003, we're working on the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune. For other regional papers, we're in negotiations with publishers now and will continue to be in the next several years. In essence, it will probably be 2004 before we launch the more regional papers. That's about as much as we can tell you at this time. Hope this information is helpful and thanks again for your comments and inquiry. Best regards, Chris Chris Cowan Vice President, Historical Newspapers ProQuest Information and Learning 300 N. Zeeb Rd. Ann Arbor, MI 48103 ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204 email: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 1 00:31:11 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: Historical newspapers online In-Reply-To: <1ab.b4316a8.2af31faf@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The attached is from ProQuest. The good news is that the WASHINGTON POST > is now available, and the LOS ANGELES TIMES and CHICAGO TRIBUNE will soon be > available. So we'll check on "Caesar Salad" and "Chicago deep-dish pizza" > and "Windy City" by next year, although the Tribune will still get it wrong. > The bad news is that the NEW ORLEANS TIMES-PICAYUNE and the SAN FRANCISCO > CHRONICLE won't be available by next year. The T-P would have helped my > research into New Orleans foods enormously. The CHRONICLE would have had > "cioppino" and "hoodlum" and "jazz." Oh well, there's also the CHRISTIAN > SCIENCE MONITOR. Actually, the bad news is that the pricing of ProQuest Historical Newspapers is quite high and the libraries that Barry and I frequent may not subscribe to anything other than the New York Times. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 01:09:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:09:11 EST Subject: Hash House Slang (1888) Message-ID: The NEW YORK HERALD has an index, but it's not complete nad not very good. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing....The bottom part of this copy has been torn, and words are missing. From the NEW YORK HERALD, 1 April 1888, pg. 9, col. 6: _VERY DEOMCRATIC HASH._ _A Feast Fir for the Gods for_ _Twenty-five Cents._ _AND LUNCH FOR A NICKEL_ _Scenes in a Restaurant Where a Curious_ _Volapuk Is Spoken_ (...) Or they can get a cup of coffee and some cakes for ten cents. The facetious patrons of the restaurant call these cakes "sinkers," because if they were thrown overboard they wouldn't float. (...) _A VOLAPUK DIALECT._ While the HERALD reporter sat in this restaurant the other day he remarked that the customers did not, as a rule, speak the ENglish language. They had a dialect of their own, not very different from trhe volapuk that has become such a fad in certain very high circles. A young man with a very "tough" air threw himself in the chair as the oppsoite side of the table at which the reporter was sitting, and when the waiter sidled up to him said, with a drawl:-- "Cup o' cough an' three off!" The reporter wondered what he meant, but soon found out when he heard the waiter call to one of the cooks:'' "A cup of coffee and three cakes off the griddle." Another young man called for "ham an':" this meant ham and beans. "Beef an'" meant corned beef and beans. When a very hard looking man said he wanted "boot leg and chuck" the reporter expected to... (Copy breaks up here--ed.) the waiter knock him down, but he didn't. ...turned on his heel and returned in about two-minutes with a cup of coffee and a hunk of bread. Another young man sat at the table behind the reporter, and when the waiter asked, "What...order?" he replied very laconically, "Eh...chicken." "Two fried eggs turned over!" cried the waiter to the cook. During his stay in the restaurant the reporter learned several things he never knew...sides the above the following:-- That "pluck" meant beef stew. That "cough in the dark" meant coffee...(Without?--ed.) milk. That "sleeve buttons" meant fish cakes. That "pig iron" meant fried sausages. That "quail" meant chicken stew. That "heavy weights" and "sinkers" meant... (Cakes? Doughnuts?--ed.) That "hot water" meant tea. That "Stars and Stripes" meant pork and... (Beans?--ed.) That "dyspepsia in a snow storm" meant ...pie with powdered sugar. That "Murphy with his coat off" meant...(Potatoes?--ed.) peeled. That "old friend and shamrock" meant (Corned?--ed.) beef and cabbage. That "pallbearers" meant crackers. That "a tenement house in Greenwich Village" meant a plate of soup with plenty of greens in it. And that "mystery" meant hash. (The RHHDAS has 1877-1878 on "mystery." It was found by me and posted here six years ago--ed.) From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Nov 1 02:01:31 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:01:31 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 1 02:36:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:36:13 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021031173521.02610210@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0500 10/31/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" (I pictured it as "Devils' >Night" then) was a children's institution, a time for pranks or tricks, an >extension of Halloween (Oct. 31 evening was expended in foraging for >treats, so the tricks had to have a different night). Some of the tricks of >course were childishly cruel or dangerous... Funny you should mention the two analyses. I first entered it as "Devils' Night" in my reply to the query this morning, thinking that each of the perpetrators (not being a Detroiter, I hadn't known about the more innocent origins of the night of mayhem and arson later widely reported) was a devil, and then deciding that the whole night belonged to the Devil. larry From pds at VISI.COM Fri Nov 1 03:40:00 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:40:00 -0600 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031.210519.-208467.12.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Was there sacred music in the Waring editions? I remember anthems from church choir in the '60s that had pronunciation notations below the lyrics (and I mean English lyrics). Seems to me that they came from one or another of the directors of the St Olaf College Choir. More to the point, and this is really stretching my memory, I seem to recall that these pronunciations involved systematic vowel shifts -- perhaps lowering of front vowels, at least the higher ones. 30 or more people all singing "eeee" can sound pretty awful. Unfortunately, at the time I didn't know a front vowel from a hole in the ground. Anyway, there must be some choristers on this list. If not, I'll ask my daughter, the soprano. If there's a name for the practice, I don't know it. At 09:01 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > >> when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop >> consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically >> a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >Not directly on point, but related. > >Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy >Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for >choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular >lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Nov 1 03:37:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:37:52 -0600 Subject: Canoodle--bibliographic reference Message-ID: First, many thanx for the answers about the back of a one-dollar bill. Next, there have recently been a few ads-l messages about "canoodle." For anyone interested, here's a bibliographical reference: Gerald Cohen, with material primarily from e-mail messages of SAMUEL JONES and JIM RADER: "Possible German Origin of Slang _Canoodle_ 'kiss, hug, fondle." in: _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 28, no. 3, Dec. 1998, pp.2-6. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 03:58:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:58:15 -0500 Subject: Continental Breakfast (1896) Message-ID: From HARPER'S WEEKLY, 18 January 1896, pg. 66, and reprinted in the NEW YORK POST, 18 January 1896, pg. 20, col. 6: _BREAKFAST IN THE OLD DAYS_ In the old days a hungry man could get more things to eat at a New England breakfast-table than are to-day served at many a banquet. Hungry men have declined in numbers and influence, and European travel has had a depleting effect upon that fine old institution--breakfast. No one but the "Autocrat" ever talked much at that meal, forthe viands were too tempting--great beef steaks, hot rolls, buckwheat cakes, omelets, potatoes, coffee, and even, at Mr. Emerson's, pie. Then returned travellers began to bring back tales of the refined Continental breakfast of coffee and a roll. It was even narrated that an Italian gentleman thought that he had eaten a very hearty breakfast when he had put cream in his coffee. So pie was first banished, and the other heavy articles gradually followed it into exile, and breakfast is shorn of its glories. Those who aim at a restoration of the vigor of the Puritans should being by restoring "pie" to its former high estate, and the "Continental breakfast" should be banished from a hemisphere where the Monroe doctrine and the pie should reign supreme. (But keep the "croissants" on the table--ed.) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 1 06:47:11 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 Subject: FW: dialect change? Message-ID: What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. Frank Abate On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 06:58:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:58:24 EST Subject: Mou Gou Guy Pan (1902); Pepper Steak (1903); Dim Sum (1908) Message-ID: Here are a few Chinese restaurant articles I got today, using the NEW YORK HERALD index. Sometimes the index cites other newspapers (here, the WORLD). 26 July 1896, NEW YORK HERALD, fourth section, pg. 14, col. 3: _CHINESE VIANDS_ _FOR AMERICANS._ _Shrewd Celestials Have Built Res-_ _taurants Especially to Catch the_ _Trade of Bohemian New Yorkers._ (...) The original Chinese restaurant down in Mott and Pell streets was generally a dreary little hole in the wall, redolent of stale odors. 14 December 1902, NEW YORK HERALD, fifth section, pg. 11, col. 1: _CHINESE CUISINE A CHRISTMAS DINNER ODDITY_ _REMARKABLE POPULARITY OF THE ORIENTAL RESTAURANT FAD IN NEW YORK_ (..) (Col. 3--ed.) The bill of fare is in ENglish and explanations of Chinese dishes follow the foreign name. For instance, we find that "guy fou yong dun" is simply chicken omelet. "Mou gou guy pan" loses its mystery as boneless chicken with white mushrooms, and "chow sang ha" is more tempting as fried live lobsters; while "you jor bock gob" doesn't appear quite so formidable as fried squab. If you want any birds' nest--"yin wor"--of sharks' fins--"goy chee"--it is necessary to order the day before. Also, if you have a dinner party of considerable size and want Chinese music with your "chop sooy" and "goy chee" due notice must be given the manager. (...)(Pg. 12--ed.) The Tenderloin contains half a dozen of them. They are familiarly known to the habitues of that lively neighborhood as "chop suey houses." At one resort in Twenty-seventh street it is spelled "soui." In Chinatown it is "sooy." But the famous Chinese dish of that name tastes the same in whatever orthography. (...) The prices range from seventy-five cents for "chow main" to fifteen cents for "yet go main." 22 March 1903, THE WORLD, metropolitan section, pg. 4: _Three o'Clock in the Morning at a Chinese Restaurant Uptown._ (...) (Col. 4--ed.) The bill of fare is not very extensive. Its items are: Cents Chop suey.............................................25 Chop suey, with mushrooms...................35 Chicken chop suey.................................50 Yei go main............................................20 Chaw main.............................................75 Pepper steak.........................................25 (...) (Col.5--ed.) Chaw main, which costs 75 cents, is chicken chop suey, served on a bed of crisp vermicella that has been first steamed and then fried--all in the iron bowl. If Saratoga chips could be fixed in strings it would be just about the same as the chaw main foundation. Yet go main is simply noodle soup with a hard boiled egg in it. All these stews are enriched with stock from the pot of simmering chickens. Pepper steak is simply chopped beefsteak cooked with chopped-up green peppers, a little onion and celery. It's darn good. 22 March 1908, NEW YORK HERLAD, second section, pg. 6: _MANDARIN GARDEN DEDICATED TO HIGH TEA._ _Chinatown Hails New Restaurant, Elborately Fitted--Imperial Standards Rule Cuisine, and Leong Gamm, Lord of Cooks, Directs the Kitchen._ (...) (Col. 3--ed.) With the beverage are served such delicacies as dim sum, which is a second cousin to steamed sponge cake, and ha kow, a soulful dumpling modelled about an armature of water chestnuts. (...) Ye sang, which consists largely of boneless fish and rice, is held in high regard. Op tup, an essence of duck and rice, is a favorite. For dinner there are such culinary delights ar pun lung dan. Dan means eggs, and the dish is therefore eggs a la His Royal Highness Pun Lung, who was the first ruler of China. The eggs are first fried in deep hot fat as though they were doughnuts, and then garnished with minced lobster, hashed chicken, bamboo sprouts, water chestnuts, flaxseed knots, ham and mushrooms. From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 1 09:35:51 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:35:51 -0800 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031.210519.-208467.12.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: Is this phenomenom related in any way to, for example, how many white contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? --- Duane Campbell wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > writes: > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > technically > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > Not directly on point, but related. > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > for > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > regular > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > D ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From douglas at NB.NET Fri Nov 1 10:33:23 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:33:23 -0500 Subject: Canoodle--bibliographic reference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Gerald Cohen, with material primarily from e-mail messages of SAMUEL >JONES and JIM RADER: "Possible German Origin of Slang _Canoodle_ >'kiss, hug, fondle." in: _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 28, no. 3, >Dec. 1998, pp.2-6. The verb certainly looks equivalent to "knuddeln". In fact, one Web English/German dictionary gives exactly and only "knuddeln" as a translation of "canoodle". But what is the age of the word "knuddeln" in German? [I don't have access to the CoE issue cited.] On the Web I find the story (for which I don't vouch myself, of course) of an embarrassed English-speaker who asked a German waitress for a "Knudel" ("cuddle") when he wanted a "Knoedel" ("dumpling"). -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 12:41:15 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:41:15 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021031212753.7C6D3BF96@xmxpita.excite.com> Message-ID: Joshua, The word "register" is prescribed for cases just like these. Be careful though! Register and dialect are often intertwined. When I am in my basketball-playing register (clearly not a dialect), I find it difficult (perhaps impossible) to use the BSMS (bullshit Michigan speech) I have come to use in place of my LLL (lovely Louisville lilt). dInIs > this thought hit me on the way to the shower. any takers? > >when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop >consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically >a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >-joshua > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com >The most personalized portal on the Web! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From chuck at CHUCKG.COM Fri Nov 1 13:53:14 2002 From: chuck at CHUCKG.COM (chuck grandgent) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:53:14 -0500 Subject: > Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: In Connecticut in the 60's, it was "cabbage night", a night of mischief. Chuck Grandgent > Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:27:42 -0800 > From: Ed Keer > Subject: Night before Halloween > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Nov 1 16:47:26 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:47:26 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:40:00 -0600 Tom Kysilko writes: > Was there sacred music in the Waring editions? I remember anthems > from > church choir in the '60s that had pronunciation notations below the > lyrics > (and I mean English lyrics). Seems to me that they came from one > or > another of the directors of the St Olaf College Choir. Both Waring and St. Olaf's publish sacred music. I don't recall that Olaf had phonetics, but I could be wrong. The "dialect" of musical pronunciation is purely functional. As someone else noted, a choir sounds much better singing aaahhhh than eeeeeee. Same, to a slightly lesser extent, with soloists. Songwriters know this, so you have: Ahhhhhhh-l be th-air With the word "be" deliberately on a very short note. Almost "I'll b'there." Musical tones sound more pleasing with the vocal passage wide open on vowels, and many consonants sound just dreadful. Pronunciation by a trained singer makes use of this. We are so used to these conventions that we hardly notice it. For example, take the line, "You are the promised breathe of springtime." The first two words both have harsh sounds in them and are drawn out. To make it sound decent, the diphthong in "you" is shortened to "Yoooo" instead of "Ye-ooo" and "are" is sung as just an open aahhh, often with the "r" at the end totally dropped, or at most just suggested. An exception that proves this rule (in the original sense of the phrase) is blue grass music (if you haven't seen Oh Brother, Where Art Thou, you must) which cherishes the musically harsh speech of Appalachia. A blue grass singer would sing (only slightly exaggerated) "Yew arrrrr ...." D From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:00:34 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:00:34 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 2002 to 31 Oct 2002 (#2002-279) Message-ID: Buckeyes While the fruit of the buckeye treat isn't good to eat, those of us who are Buckeyes know that another buckeye is quite sweet--a kind of confection made with peanut butter, shaped into little balls, then dipped in chocolate, which then looks like the "real" buckeye, aka horse chestnut. They're often made for bake-sales and holidays. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:11:37 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:11:37 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 2002 to 31 Oct 2002 (#2002-279) Message-ID: Nigh before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this was the night for "trick or treating". Halloween night was just another night, from what I remember. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Fri Nov 1 17:03:29 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:03:29 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 1 18:54:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:54:17 EST Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: In French there is a strong convention that when the last word in a line of a song ends in a final "e" that is silent in speech, that "e" is pronounced as a schwa and has a separate note when sung. Example: "alouette" (skylark) is three syllables in spoken French: /a loo et/ but is four syllables in the folk song: /a loo et t@/. (Transcription note: I am not sure if the first syllable is pronounced like English "short a" or "short o".) Other well-known folk songs in which this can be heard (a hyphen inserted to show the sung-only syllable) include "Au Clair de la Lun-e" and "J'ai perdu le do de ma clarinett-e". In "Frer-e Jacqu-es" a pair of words that in speech are monosyllables are sung as two syllables each. Two Christmas carols (English version is "Oh Holy Night") "Minuit Chretian c'est l'heure solonell-e" and (English version is "Now is born the Divine Christ Child") "Il est ne le divine enfant Jouez hautbois, resonnez musett-es" - Jim Landau From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:03:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:03:20 -0500 Subject: FW: dialect change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The classic article on early Brit imitation of American music, and esp. of black singers more than Elvis, is Peter Trudgill's "Acts of Conflicting Identity: The Sociolinguistics of British Pop-song Pronunciation," in his book _On Dialect: Social and Geographical Perspectives_ (NYU Press, 1983). They'd try to be r-ful, for example, and to use /AE/ in words where "standard" Br Eng wouldn't, etc. It wasn't so much the U.S. market though as it was their idolizing of American pop singers, as I understand it. But yes, they became more "English" as time went on and they established their own identity. At 01:47 AM 11/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: >What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in >rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their >"accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect >of the sound of their dialect is diminished. > >I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the >Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be attributed to their >trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as >the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to >flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and >intonation. Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing >to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is >diminished. > >Frank Abate > >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > >Not directly on point, but related. > >Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy >Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for >choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular >lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > >Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > >D From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:06:37 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021101093551.2490.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, see my reference to Trudgill, in an earlier note. The same surely applies here. And Elvis did it too, didn't he? At 01:35 AM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Is this phenomenon related in any way to, for example, how many white >contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they >sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? > > >--- Duane Campbell wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > > writes: > > > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > > technically > > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > > > Not directly on point, but related. > > > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > > for > > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > > regular > > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > > > D > > >===== >Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. >Associate Professor - English and Linguistics > & University Editor >Department of English >Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 >(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) >e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 20:09:28 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:09:28 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same for down here in the hills of southeastern Ohio (but not up north in Minnesota). At 12:03 PM 11/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and >this is when we did our "trick or treating". > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > >Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. >Associate Professor of English: Linguistics >Department of English >Grand Valley State University >1 Campus Drive >Allendale, MI 49401 USA >remlingk at gvsu.edu >tel: 616-895-3122 >fax: 616-895-3430 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 1 21:20:13 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:20:13 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: I have read this thread with great interest. As I understand it, many people have some special name for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some people go out and create mischief and others go trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has all activity moved to the 31st? thanks, Fritz >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 1 21:48:30 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:48:30 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was for going out and soaping windows, TPing houses, throwing eggs, etc. None of this was done in costume. Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in costume. That dichotomy is shared by the others that I mentioned. They just had different names for the 30th. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I have read this thread with great interest. As I > understand it, many people have some special name > for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some > people go out and create mischief and others go > trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one > of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other > activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating > again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? > Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day > before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July > 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of > activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has > all activity moved to the 31st? > thanks, > Fritz > >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> > Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called > it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our > "trick or treating". > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > Department of English > Grand Valley State University > 1 Campus Drive > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > remlingk at gvsu.edu > tel: 616-895-3122 > fax: 616-895-3430 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:21:57 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:21:57 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021101214830.14008.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oops--I misreplied on Beggars' Night; it's on Hallowe'en, not the eve before, and is the term used for what little kids do door to door. If there's a different Mischief Night here I'm not aware of it--but I'll ask around. Our Latin American students will celebrate the Day of the Dead (All Souls' Day) tomorrow, of course, the day after All Saints' Day (today). So potentially it's a three- or four-day binge, positive or negative. At 01:48 PM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was >for going out and soaping windows, TPing houses, >throwing eggs, etc. None of this was done in costume. >Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in >costume. > >That dichotomy is shared by the others that I >mentioned. They just had different names for the 30th. > >Ed > > >--- FRITZ JUENGLING > wrote: > > I have read this thread with great interest. As I > > understand it, many people have some special name > > for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. Some > > people go out and create mischief and others go > > trick or treating on that night. So, if you do one > > of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other > > activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating > > again)? What's significant about the 30th at all? > > Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day > > before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July > > 3rd. In those areas where there was some sort of > > activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has > > all activity moved to the 31st? > > thanks, > > Fritz > > >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> > > Night before Halloween: In central Ohio we called > > it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our > > "trick or treating". > > > > >> LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 11/01/02 00:01 AM >>> > > > > > > Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor of English: Linguistics > > Department of English > > Grand Valley State University > > 1 Campus Drive > > Allendale, MI 49401 USA > > remlingk at gvsu.edu > > tel: 616-895-3122 > > fax: 616-895-3430 > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Nov 1 21:16:37 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:16:37 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: My children, William 12 1/2 and Grant 11, call it mischief night. They don't seem very upset that I'm disinclined to approve of their participation. At least for now, they accept my point of view. My suspicion is that this sort of deferral will end in the next year or so. Regards, David Barnhart From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Nov 1 22:41:42 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:41:42 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:42 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: > >#Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the >#night of Halloween? ># >#Annie Bush > >Same night. > >Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric >1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. > >-- Mark A. Mandel = the eve before All Saints' (all the hallowed ones') Day, Nov. 1. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 1 23:32:19 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:32:19 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: Ed Keer, who I believe also said he was a native of southeastern PA, explains the difference: >> We celebrated both eves. Mischief night (the 30th) was for going out and >> soaping windows, TPing houses, throwing eggs, etc. None of this was >> done in costume. Halloween (the 31st) was for trick-or-treating, in >> costume. Exactly. The locally named "Tick-Tack Night" (I explained the term earlier) was also a time for soaping windows, etc., as Ed says. (Extremely rowdy kids would occasionally turn over a garbage can.) --Dodi Schultz From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Nov 2 00:00:59 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:00:59 -0800 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A couple of years ago a Portland muckraking weekly ran an article about a notorious and unscrupulous divorce attorney in the area. The article lead was something like "Have an Ex to Grind?" I haven't noticed such entries in RHHDAS--that is, the deliberate word play; but then I also haven't read every word of the volumes I have. Does anyone know whether such a cite would be fodder for inclusion in a subsequent edition? Peter R. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Sat Nov 2 00:20:20 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:20:20 -0800 Subject: night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021101171806.02d4a3f8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I'd forgotten about Beggars' Night from our years in Yellow Springs (SW Ohio) until it emerged on this thread. My wife and I both recall that it was movable if it didn't fall on a Friday or Saturday--so sometimes it fell on Oct. 31, sometimes not. That may well have been a strictly local custom. Peter Mc. --On Friday, November 1, 2002 5:21 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Oops--I misreplied on Beggars' Night; it's on Hallowe'en, not the eve > before, and is the term used for what little kids do door to door. If > there's a different Mischief Night here I'm not aware of it--but I'll ask > around. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 2 02:53:20 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:53:20 -0500 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 04:00:59PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote: > A couple of years ago a Portland muckraking weekly ran an article about a > notorious and unscrupulous divorce attorney in the area. The article lead > was something like "Have an Ex to Grind?" > > I haven't noticed such entries in RHHDAS--that is, the deliberate word > play; but then I also haven't read every word of the volumes I have. Does > anyone know whether such a cite would be fodder for inclusion in a > subsequent edition? For what? It could go under _ex_ n. 2 'a former spouse or lover', but HDAS wouldn't have entries for obvious puns of this sort, as they're not slang. I'd think that most dictionaries would regarded such uses as off limits for most purposes. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 2 02:58:21 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:58:21 -0500 Subject: ADS at LSA schedule? Message-ID: Would someone be willing to post the rough schedule of the ADS meetings at LSA? Just the outline, i.e. when the first meeting is and when the last meeting is. I can't find my copy of NADS, it's not on the ADS Web site, and I need to make my travel plans. Thanks. Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Sat Nov 2 04:10:06 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:10:06 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021031173521.02610210@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>Devil's Night. Used to be a night in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in >>Flint, where arsonists would set buildings on fire in droves. > >In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" ... was ... a time for pranks >or tricks .... I inquired among some young[er] Pittsburghers. An authority who is enrolled at the local middle school informs me that the night in question is called "Devil's night" and is considered appropriate for window-soaping, toilet-papering, etc. ... about the same as I remember it from Detroit ca. 1960. No arson is implied, I am told. -- Doug Wilson From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Nov 2 05:28:02 2002 From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:28:02 -0700 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <200211020501.WAA397556@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Message-ID: The discussion on dialect change in song raises an issue I have been vaguely aware of for some time and on which I recently received some surprising evidence. I do not regularly listen to popular music of any kind (that is not meant as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do hear sort of mainstream vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I frequently notice the singer using a relatively r-less pronunciation and monophthonizing /ai/ diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have not noticed them. Yet, as several of you have noted, when the singer is interviewed, s/he uses a fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. I thought I was on to some unrecognized sociolinguistic change that I would get around to researching some day, when I mentioned this phenomenon to a freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically naive and r-pronouncing, diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was nothing new to them, that several had taken pop singing lessons and that was a basic part of the instruction. I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common knowledge? Any similar experiences? Karl Krahnke English Department Colorado State University From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Nov 2 05:32:31 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:32:31 -0600 Subject: British rock singers -- was dialect change? In-Reply-To: <20021102050107.61C2E4B0C@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 > From: Frank Abate > Subject: FW: dialect change? > > What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing > occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much > of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the > intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. > > I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the > Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be > attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying > to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, > too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal > characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. Later, when > their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as > Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. See: Trudgill Peter. 1983. 'Acts of Conflicting Identity. The Sociolingistics of British Pop-Song Pronunciation'. Peter Trudgill, On Dialect. Social and Geographical Perspectives. Oxford: Blackwell. 141-160. Very rough summary -- in the 1960's, British rock singers tried (consciously or unconsciously) to sound American -- the same kind of American as US rock singers. They didn't exactly get it right. Later, some rockers tried (again, consciously or unconsciously) to sound working-class English. This mixed oddly with attempts to sound American and with the singers' native dialects. Along the same lines, in recordings of country music from the 1920s through the 1940s, the singers used Southern accents. (One recording from the 1920s was of someone who sounded as if he'd been born in London, singing a British music hall song. I suspect whoever made the recording didn't notice the dialect difference.) At some point, country music started being sung in a stylized version of South Midlands/Upper South. Why the change? From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Sat Nov 2 06:04:42 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 01:04:42 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: > > > Devil's Night. Used to be a night in Detroit, and to > > > a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set > > > buildings on fire in droves. > > > > In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" ... was ... > > a time for pranks or tricks .... > > I inquired among some young[er] Pittsburghers. An > authority who is enrolled at the local middle school informs > me that the night in question is called "Devil's night" and is > considered appropriate for window-soaping, toilet-papering, > etc. ... about the same as I remember it from Detroit ca. > 1960. No arson is implied, I am told. It was the very same ca. 1974-80 in Hamilton, Ontario and environs. On "Devil's Night" we went out soaping windows. Arson never entered into it. Don From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 2 07:07:19 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 02:07:19 -0500 Subject: ex to grind Message-ID: Peter Richardson suggests that the above phrase should be in a dictionary. Why? It's not a new meaning, just a play on words. I've never heard of dictionaries' including wordplay. --Dodi Schultz From cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 2 17:11:01 2002 From: cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lakita Hampton) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:11:01 -0500 Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Sat Nov 2 18:20:28 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:20:28 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 2002 to 1 Nov 2002 (#2002-280) Message-ID: I am not sure what the significance of having beggars' night on the 30th is. We didn't go trick or treating again on the 31st. Although we usually did nothing on the 31st, sometimes we'd go to a party in the neighborhood. At the party we'd bob for apples and play a game where we were blind- folded and stuck our hands in food items that were made out to be body parts (eye balls, brains, other organs). The object of the game was to scare us rather than have us guess what the actual "parts" were (peeled grapes, cooked spaghetti...) I went to a Catholic elementary school where we dressed up like our patron saints on the 31st, rather than the typical Halloween characters. Each class paraded around the school in our costumes. The entire school then went to mass on Nov 1st for All Saints Day (but not in our saint costumes!). Kate Date: ***Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:20:13 -0800 From: ***FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: night before Halloween I have read this thread with great interest. *As I understand it, many people have some special name for the night before Halloween, i.e. Oct 30th. *Some people go out and create mischief and others go trick or treating on that night. *So, if you do one of these activities on the 30th, do you do the other activity on the 31st (or do you go trick or treating again)? *What's significant about the 30th at all? *Sounds sorta like having a big turkey dinner the day before Thanksgiving or shooting fireworks on July 3rd. *In those areas where there was some sort of activity on the 30th, is that still the case, or has all activity moved to the 31st? thanks, Fritz Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 >>> remlingk at GVSU.EDU 11/01/02 09:03AM >>> Night before Halloween: In *central Ohio we called it "beggars' night" and this is when we did our "trick or treating". From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Sat Nov 2 18:29:40 2002 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:40 -0500 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 2002 to 1 Nov 2002 (#2002-280) Message-ID: Date: ***Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:47:11 -0500 From: ***Frank Abate Subject: FW: dialect change? What is said below re changes in one's speech sounds while singing occurs in rock singing, noticeably when Brit rock singers "lose" much of their "accent" when singing, largely, I believe, because the intonational aspect of the sound of their dialect is diminished. I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the Who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). *Part of this may be attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. *Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is diminished. Frank Abate On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua writes: > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) *doing this isn't technically > a dialect change, so what would we call it? Not directly on point, but related. Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics for choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the regular lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. D Peter Trudgill has an article called "Acts of Conflicting Identity" that discusses the register shift used by Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones, and others. He attitributes the shift in part to accomodation, in part to marketing, among other factors. The article is in Coupland and Jaworski's reader _Sociolinguistics_. Kate Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Department of English Grand Valley State University 1 Campus Drive Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-895-3122 fax: 616-895-3430 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 2 20:56:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:56:59 -0500 Subject: Red Ink (1901); Jinks=Devil Message-ID: RED INK ARGONAUT LETTERS by Jerome Hart San Francisco: Payot, Upham & Company 1901 Pp. 309-354: OF EATING AND DRINKING Pg. 328: Doubtless many a bookmaker, drinking his noisy pint of champagne with all its pomp and circumstance of effervescence, cracked ice, and wine-cooler, looked with ill-concealed disdain on the quiet persons near him drinking "red ink" out of a bottle without any label. (OED has 1919 for "red ink"--ed.) Pg. 330: If you follow up the "ole mammy cook" through the South, you never find her. Pg. 345: At the _caffes_ wines, liqueurs, malt liquors, tea, coffee, milk, and chocolate are served, together with simple cold luncheons, such as ham, cold chicken, sandwiches, boiled eggs; this they call the _buffet-freddo_, or cold buffet. A third class is the _pasticheria_ or _gelatteria_, where pastry and ices (_gelati_) are served, together with tea, coffee, chocolate, and fequently wines, cordial, and liqueurs (the Italians drink almost no ardent liquor). Pg. 348: CAFFETERIA COffee Coffee with milk Coffee with an egg Coffee with bread Chocolate plain Chocolate made with milk Tea plain Tea with milk Tea with bread Cup of hot milk Butter Cream Vienna roll BUFFET ("Caffeteria" is probably not our "cafeteria"--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- JINKS=DEVIL IN OUR SECOND CENTURY FROM AN EDITOR'S NOTEBOOK by Jerome A. Hart San Francisco: The Pioneer Press, Publishers 1931 Pg. 356: While a member of the Bohemian Club, Humphrey Moore painted a cartoon for "The Devil" Jinks; Doctor Martin Luther, seated as a table reading the Holy Bible, was represented as tempted by two lovely girls in ballet costume, one of whom is bearing wine, while the other points a provacative toe at the worthy doctor's nose. The Devil himself is seated in the window casement, strumming a lute for the dancing girls. (...) This picture I always found one of the most interesting in the Club--partly on account of its intrinsic charm, and partly by reason of the painter's individuality. (The Bohemian Club ran many "jinks" events, "hi" and "low"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 01:06:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:06:32 EST Subject: In Like Flynn; New Restaurant Scene; Electronic Databases; NY Misc. Message-ID: IN LIKE FLYNN (continued) From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, 1 November 2002, "Hollywood's Latest Courtroom Drama," weekend section pg. W15, col. 5: Errol Flynn's legal counsel put the leading man on the witness stand to refute statutory rape charges before an all-female jury. His summary acquittal and enhanced swashbuckler's image led to the coining of the term "in like Flynn," a mantra of consequence-free action. Didn't the NEW YORK TIMES F.Y.I. section state that it comes from Boss Flynn of the Bronx? The NEW YORK TIMES or the WALL STREET JOURNAL--which one to believe? As I said, the Peter Tamony collection indicates that the term was used BEFORE Errol Flynn's trial. But I'm not in a rush here. We'll have full text of the LOS ANGELES TIMES in a few months. It's going to have something about movie star Errol Flynn. I'll report back. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW RESTAURANT SCENE The same WSJ weekend section has an article on "The New Restaurant Scene." There aren't many new or regional terms to report here, but from pg. W2, col. 2: Not that there aren't new food trends. While Pan-Asian and comfort foods (meatloaf is in) still rule, several restaurants are suddenly dancing to a Latin beat, or even to a Turkish one. Communal tables are popping up all over the country, tasting portions are popular and gnocchi is the new risotto. (...) (Col. 4--ed.) IN A BURST OF PATRIOTISM, a hose of "New American" restaurants, such as Local 66 and Firefly, are opening in the national's capital. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ELECTRONIC DATABASES (continued) I can't wait for LOS ANGELES TIMES online. A little "cheeseburger" query, to see if Louisville's claim is valid or not. "Chili dog." "Corn dog." "Tri tip sandwich." "French dip sandwich." "Hot fudge sundae." And then the CHICAGO TRIBUNE online. So what else is there? I'll visit Columbia University on Monday (you can buy a monthly pass for $55), and I checked out the online databases. Columbia has WALL STREET JOURNAL full text from ProQuest. I didn't see the WASHINGTON POST full text on the menu, but that could be just that the menu wasn't updated. I'll do ProQuest Historical Newspapers and hope that the WP is there. The GERRITSON COLLECTION is online at Columbia and NYU, but not at the NYPL. It's a large collection of women's periodicals. There may be some food items to record there. THE NATION is at Columbia, but not at NYU or NYPL. It's very useful for political terms of the past 100-plus years. The AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES is at Columbia, but I didn't see it at NYU or NYPL. It's not all online yet, but there are a lot of wonderful period icals here. PUCK was a leading comic periodical published in New York City, and we'll have full text searching of that. That's just one goodie--I'll check it on Monday. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- O.T. NYC MISC. MATTHEW BRODERICK AND SARAH JESSICA PARKER HAVE A BABY--Front page of today's NEW YORK POST. Front page of today's NEW YORK DAILY NEWS. The most important news story in the world today! What makes it especially sickening is that the POST had a photographer stalk the pregnant SJP for months, submitting photos to PAGE SIX. Neither newspaper put my "Big Apple" work on the front page. The NEW YORK DAILY NEWS never covered it at all. PARKING VIOLATIONS "MITIGATION MEMO"--Yesterday at work, I was warned to follow the now-infamous and illegal "mitigation memo." Judges can no longer mitigate the now $105 fine for a "crosswalk," for example. The city is not required to paint crosswalk lines, and can sock you $105 (plus tow) for an inch of your bumper over the imaginary line. This drama happens every day at every street corner. Some of this stuff would be a scandal, but it won't be, as long as there are Jennifer Aniston photos around. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 04:19:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 23:19:12 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) Message-ID: I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. 2 June 1939, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 37: Lee Gould of the branch chapter formed by the Elizabethan Chowder and Marching Society at Harvard University will lead an open forum on the relative merits of blasting operations. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 06:21:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 01:21:38 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: CALIFORNIA DREAMING: I can almost taste those "California Roll" and "Taco" cites in the LOS ANGELES TIMES. --------------------------------------------------------------- TUNA Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. I've been reading books on Mediterranean travels since coming back from Malta. See A VOYAGE TO CADIZ AND GIBRALTAR, UP THE MEDITERRANEAN TO SICILY AND MALTA IN 1810 & 1811 (London: F. Harding, 1815) by Lt. Gen. Cockburn, in two volumes. Volume Two, pages 292-295, has a chapter called "The Tunny Factory." The NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has: "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. I have to check the original. That "(tuna)" could have been added much later by the editors, but "Aku" is still useful. The NEW YORK TIMES had lots of "tuna" hits before 1881. To reduce it, I added "fish." Still, I didn't find a pre-1881 "tuna." I got the same bad "matches" that I got on "jazz" and "dude." Fred Shapiro can re-check if I missed a good hit...I think the "tuna" matches were really "tons." --------------------------------------------------------------- GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of these as "hot dog" matches. Bad search engine! Bad! I'll try it a little more, but I'm going crazy. From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sun Nov 3 10:49:50 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:49:50 +1000 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <200211030500.gA350Hkc005458@mailhub2.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: Karl Krahnke's observations are intriguing. Outside the rhotic domains (demesnes?) of N. America, the clear majority of pop bands and artist(e)s affect a heavily rhotic accent, and modify vowels, with varying degrees of mangling, in the direction of what they believe mainstream US practice to be. The rhotics are often anything but authentic (over-retroflex, etc.). This practice is picked up by non-professionals, including pre-school children, who have parallel phonologies, one for pop and one for parents; they swap effortlessly and with little interference between the two codes. -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 3 15:05:11 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:05:11 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society Message-ID: Barry Popik asked about the above. Generically (all l/c), the term "chowder and marching society" (or "club") seems to be pretty widely used to denote any civic/get-together group that combines community service with social interaction. Groups so named formally ("Chowder and Marching Society") appear to go back to the mid-19th century. A column in the Maine Journal for 3 July 2000 refers to a town's "Chowder and Marching Society band," described as "a venerable institution founded during the Civil War..." The account goes on to describe the group's activities during the 1880s. See: http://storytellers.maine.com/july_3_2000.home --Dodi Schultz From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 16:14:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:14:05 EST Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". - Jim Landau From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 3 16:17:23 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:17:23 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?) Message-ID: Barry Popik asks about *tuna* pre-1866. I have a copy of the 1864 Merriam-Webster unabridged. *Tuna* is not listed. --Dodi Schultz From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Nov 3 17:47:37 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:47:37 -0700 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities Message-ID: One of my colleagues, who grew up in Maryland, sent me the following information. Anyone hear of this? Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:49:59 -0700 From: Tom Willard To: Rudolph C Troike I heard that there was a different prank or trick for each of the last seven days of October. Was this an Irish-American custom? If so, I suspect it was more American than Irish! TW From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Nov 3 17:51:21 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:51:21 -0600 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it verbatim but it was something like: "That cheeses me out." The reference was to patriotic music and the speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', which I think we discussed some months ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 3 18:13:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:13:32 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:47 AM -0700 11/3/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >One of my colleagues, who grew up in Maryland, sent me the following >information. Anyone hear of this? > > Rudy > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 21:49:59 -0700 >From: Tom Willard >To: Rudolph C Troike > >I heard that there was a different prank or trick for each of the last >seven days of October. Was this an Irish-American custom? If so, I suspect >it was more American than Irish! > >TW I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a small candy) each day. L From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Nov 3 18:13:55 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:13:55 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 01:13:32PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > > I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, > we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a > small candy) each day. We do? I must have had a deprived childhood. For Hanukah, OTOH, we did get a small gift on each day. Jesse Sheidlower From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 3 18:28:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:28:12 -0500 Subject: Pre-Halloween activities In-Reply-To: <20021103181355.GA893@panix.com> Message-ID: At 1:13 PM -0500 11/3/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 01:13:32PM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> I thought that was the Jewish version: instead of one big holiday, >> we celebrate the 7 days of Halloween, with a little trick (and a >> small candy) each day. > >We do? I must have had a deprived childhood. > >For Hanukah, OTOH, we did get a small gift on each day. > >Jesse Sheidlower Sorry; I should have supplied a ;-)> L From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Nov 3 19:37:32 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:37:32 -0600 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: >At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a term for this, but I have a few good examples: "Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") "Kick the bucket" ( = die) Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." The lady is very conscientious and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had no idea what the boss wanted her to do. She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story some years later. Gerald Cohen From cdmull01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sun Nov 3 19:56:32 2002 From: cdmull01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Christi Mullen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:56:32 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021101150521.02d4f9b8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Quoting Beverly Flanigan : > Yes, see my reference to Trudgill, in an earlier note. The same surely > applies here. And Elvis did it too, didn't he? > > At 01:35 AM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >Is this phenomenon related in any way to, for example, how many white > >contestants on 'American Idol' adopt the "black sound" when they > >sing, yet do not "talk black" when interviewed? > > > > > >--- Duane Campbell wrote: > > > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 joshua > > > writes: > > > > > > > when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop > > > > consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't > > > technically > > > > a dialect change, so what would we call it? > > >From cdmull01 at morehead-st.edu I don't think this has anything to do with dialect change, I think it's more of a cluster reduction issue, I'm not really sure but anyway...Where does the word "daburnit" come from? In case you're not readily familiar with it, the context in which it is used is like "Oh, shit." "Oh, daburnit." Sometimes people will say "that daburn thing." It's negative. Like, "that goshdarn thing." Thank you. > > > Not directly on point, but related. > > > > > > Back in the 50s and 60s, Fred Waring (actually it was probably Roy > > > Ringwald, his arranger) developed a phonetic notation for lyrics > > > for > > > choral music. All the published Fred Waring sheet music had the > > > regular > > > lyrics, but printed below them was a phonetic version. > > > > > > Anyway, if it is a dialect, it has a formal written form. > > > > > > D > > > > > >===== > >Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. > >Associate Professor - English and Linguistics > > & University Editor > >Department of English > >Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 > >(757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) > >e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Nov 3 20:21:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:21:01 -0500 Subject: dialect change? In-Reply-To: <1036353392.3dc57f703a98f@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: >Where does the word "daburnit" come from? I take this as "Dad burn it", a transparent euphemism for "God damn it". I heard it routinely 30-40 years ago. I also used to hear "Dag nab it", an equivalent. -- Doug Wilson From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Nov 3 20:21:34 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:21:34 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little gratuitous.) There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme a dollar." Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly "Do you have a dollar?" "Yes." "Well, will you loan me a dollar." "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" dInIs >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a >term for this, but I have a few good examples: >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." >The lady is very conscientious >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story >some years later. > >Gerald Cohen -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 3 20:53:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 15:53:03 EST Subject: Halloween (OUP, 2002); Davidson's FOOD (Penguin, 2002) Message-ID: HALLOWEEN: FROM PAGEN RITUAL TO PARTY NIGHT by Nicholas Rogers Oxford: Oxford University Press 198 pages, hardcover, $23 2002 I got an Amazon alert for this book just yesterday--after Halloween. The author teaches at York University in Canada and has won awards for previous books. This book won't win any. It doesn't have a bibliography. There are a limited number of illustrations (15?). This is the definitive book on Halloween? Couldn't get to even 200 double-spaced pages? This is an OUP book? There are 20 pages of footnotes, where you'll find citations to such publications as the TORONTO EVENING TELEGRAM, TORONTO GLOBE, VANCOUVER SUN, and MONTREAL GAZETTE. Who knew that Canadians were so scary? On the plus side, he did cover Detroit. "Devil's Night" is mentioned on pages 97-100. And he cites Ze'ev Chafets, DEVIL'S NIGHT AND OTHER TRUE TALES OF DETROIT (New York: Random House, 1990), which covers the subject better. This is a poor treatment for "trick-or-treat" (it's not even an entry in the index--you have to look under "Halloween," then "and trick-or-treating"). He cites Tad Tuleja, "Trick or Treat: Pre-Texts and Contexts." in Santino, ed., HALLOWEEN, pg. 88, which again covered the subject better. "Beggars' Night"--no entry in the index for any "beggar." "Gate Night" is the term I'm used to in downstate New York. You'll have to check that on Google (where it was discussed eight years ago), because it's not in the index here, either. Give it a browse at your local bookstore (it's unfortunately under "New Age"). It's probably not worth your money, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE PENGUIN COMPANION TO FOOD by Alan Davidson New York: Penguin Books 1073 pages, paperback, $30 2002 Penguin? This was originally published in 1999 as THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD. Oxford can't publish its own book in paperback? I've discussed the book before, and I agree with "Chow Hound" Jim Leff's review on his web site. It's a great work by one person, but suffers greatly by being written by one person. There might be a long essay on some obscure British food item, then a tossed-off entry on a food everybody really eats today. It should be on your bookshelf, but it's not the last word in food. I noticed a 2002 copyright. The book says "Revised edition published by Penguin Books." I gave a quick check to Andy Smith. It cites "Popcorn Polka" in Davidson's journal PPC (1997). Surely, Davidson must know that Smith published a BOOK on popcorn? On a person note, there's the "frankfurter" entry on page 379: The name is thought to stem from newspaper cartoons of around 1900 by T. A. Dorgan, which portrayed talking frankfurters; these were also known as "dachshund sausages" because of their shape. Yep, this book is thoroughly revised. Yeesh! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOOKS MISC. KEN BURNS AND THE AMERICAN LIFE--A sign at my local Barnes & Noble bookstore. Over half of the display is NEW YORK: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY--written by _Ric_ Burns. DAVID SHULMAN'S STEVE BRODIE BOOK--A publisher was keeping his "Steve Brodie" stuff. So Shulman finally wrote a letter to try to get his stuff back. Nothing happened. He called. Nothing. So he used my "attorney at law" stationery. He got his stuff back. He also got a letter, saying how the published couldn't possibly consider a book on Steve Brodie, blah-blah-blah. I told Shulman I didn't want to read it or to analyze it. Obviously, there are people out there who'll treat a 90-year-old scholar like crap. It reminded me of my letter from the Chicago Historical Society on why they couldn't possibly consider an article on "the Windy City." (The CHS web site would later publish incorrect information about its city.) Publishing is an incentuous business, and they want to publish what's just been successfully published. Original work is beyond them. So, I guess, we don't have an OUP "Steve Brodie" book, but do we have OUP's HALLOWEEN (2002). From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 4 00:08:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:08:26 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: <4C49CDCE.16031EA0.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching #Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. I don't know the date, but in Crockett Johnson's comic strip "Barnaby", ca. WW2 and probably a bit earlier, the leprechaun (or something similar) Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it definitely ends with the target phrase. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 4 00:12:15 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 19:12:15 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <7c.30ac082f.2af6a54d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How do you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you sew?" or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main verb with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel tov" is literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means 'good luck'. -- Mark A. Mandel From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Nov 4 01:05:23 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:05:23 -0500 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel writes: >......Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's >Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it >definitely ends with the target phrase. > >-- Crockett Johnson's Mr. O'Malley's organization was actually called "Elves', Leprechauns', Gnomes' & Little Men's Chowder & Marching Society" I believe. '43, or possibly '44, seems about the right date, to me. A Murie From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Mon Nov 4 01:02:58 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:02:58 -0500 Subject: ameripop to britpop Message-ID: Of course, along these same lines are a handful of American punk bands from the early nineties, most notably Green Day, who spoke pretty standard American English in interviews but adopted bad Brit accents when they sang. Maybe an attempt to sound like the Brit-punk (the Sex Pistols, etc.) that they all grew up with? -Joshua >I noticed this with the early songs of the Beatles, the Stones, the >who, the Kinks, and the Animals (1964-5). Part of this may be >attributed to their trying NOT to sound British (sometimes even >trying to sound like Elvis)-- as the US market was so important -- >but part, too, is because singing seems to flatten or obscure many >dialectal characteristics re the sound of vowels and intonation. >Later, when their fame was established, they were more willing to >sing purely as Brits, but even then much of the "English accent" is >diminished. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Nov 4 01:25:51 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:25:51 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... Message-ID: But aren't "How do you do?" and its even more truncated for "Howdy" examples of something even further removed from intent than an indirect speech act? These sound rather more like instances of what Malinowski called phatic communion, where it's the verbal social interaction that's important not the communication of intent. Herb > When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the > "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to > it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For > example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a > "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut > the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little > gratuitous.) > > There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are > grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. > On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," > explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- > and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct > (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme > a dollar." > > Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can > be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a > case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly > > "Do you have a dollar?" > "Yes." > "Well, will you loan me a dollar." > "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" > > dInIs > > > > > > > >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal > >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is > >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally > >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > > > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a > >term for this, but I have a few good examples: > >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) > >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. > >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German > >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") > >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in > >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As > >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." > >The lady is very conscientious > >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though > >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had > >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset > >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that > >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly > >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story > >some years later. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 02:01:20 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:01:20 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0500 11/3/02, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >#My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal >#meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. ># Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is >#used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally >#means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > >Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How do >you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you sew?" >or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main verb >with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, >supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel tov" is >literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means 'good >luck'. > >-- Mark A. Mandel cf. also "God be with ye'" > Goodbye. Besides the indirect speech act, politeness, and indirection factors Dennis mentioned, there's a process whereby expressions may implicate something they don't literally express, but do so in a way that is partially incorporated into their form as well as their meaning. This is discussed in the literature under the labels "standardized nonliterality" (Kent Bach) and "short-circuited implicature" (Jerry Morgan). The latter, in his classic paper "Two types of convention in indirect speech acts" (Syntax and Semantics 9: Pragmatics, Academic Press, 1978), has lots of nice examples that he tracks through changes over time, including the aforementioned "Break a leg!" (vs. #"Fracture a tibia!"), "This is Larry Horn"/"Larry Horn is speaking" (when getting a phone call; cf. the impossible "Larry Horn is speaking", "I am Larry Horn", etc.), "You can say THAT again!" (vs. #"You can repeat that!"). In each case, he argues, a speaker unaware of the relevant convention of usage (not a meaning convention on his account) might be able to reconstruct the intended non-literal speech act, but normally these are understood without having to be calculated--the inference is, in Morgan's phrase, short-circuited. Eventually the expression may end up literally expressing what it used to merely implicate or suggest; this is typical of euphemisms, and a nice example from the paper (due originally to Jerry Sadock) is the fact that "go to the bathroom" had changed its conventional meaning at some point before I could complain that your dog went to the bathroom on my living room rug. Another example, of course, is "goodbye". Larry From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Nov 4 05:25:06 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:25:06 -0700 Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... Message-ID: Re: kick the bucket, go to the bathroom, etc. The old-fashioned school term for these, particularly used in foreign language teaching, is "idiom", or "idiomatic expression". No need to go much further in search of a label, when this will do for most people (except for linguists, who, as we agreed earlier in a lively exchange, are not normal). Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 07:33:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 02:33:40 EST Subject: "Shrieking Violet" Peggy Moran Message-ID: This obituary is from today's (Monday's) NEW YORK TIMES, but it's been in other newspapers for a few days now. Is "shrieking violet" a "shrinking violet" variant that OED wants recorded? Or the HDAS? I can check her clipping file at the Lincoln Center Library, and look for the term on LOS ANGELES TIMES full text when that becomes available soon. Peggy Moran, 84, 'Shrieking Violet' Known for 1940's Horror Films, Dies By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AMARILLO, Calif., Nov. 3 ? Peggy Moran, who made more than 30 horror and western films in the 1930's and 1940's and was known as one of Hollywood's top "shrieking violets," died here Oct. 25. She was 84. The cause was complications from injuries she sustained in an automobile accident, said her son, Peter Koster of Oakland, Calif. Ms. Moran's reputation was made by a handful of popular horror movies, including "The Mummy's Hand" (1940) and "Horror Island" (1941). She also appeared in "Ninotchka" (1939), which starred Greta Garbo. While under contract to Warner Brothers and Universal, Ms. Moran made dozens of B films. She also starred opposite Gene Autry in "Rhythm of the Saddle" and with Roy Rogers in "King of the Cowboys." She was a co-star in many comedies, including "One Night in the Tropics," which was Abbott and Costello's screen debut. (...) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 08:45:48 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:45:48 -0800 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An expression I hear students use is "Can I see your pencil?" , meaning "Can I use your pencil?" --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose > literal > #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as > something else. > # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are > you?" but is > #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which > literally > #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How > do > you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you > sew?" > or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main > verb > with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, > supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel > tov" is > literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means > 'good > luck'. > > -- Mark A. Mandel ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Nov 4 12:23:00 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:23:00 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 4 12:42:13 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:42:13 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <000f01c283a1$1da7ba60$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Of course one may break down the functions of indirect speech acts further, but I don't see how this makes them any less indirect. The fact that they carry social or interactional meaning (rather more directly than some other sentences) is undoubtedly the case, but I wouldn't want to mislead someone who asked about "noinliteral" speech by saying that the linguist's word for such things was the Malinowskian label. This brings us (dangerously) close to the discussion of "convention," speech act territory where we would surely not want to go in our initial response to this request for a label. I go there anyhow: Non-conventional indirectness: A: It's cold in here. B: (Hmmmmmmmm. Why is A informing me (as the statement form of her sentence suggests) about the temperature in my room. Let's see. Oh, she might be cold, and, since it's my room and she doesn't want to seem presumptuous, I bet she wants me to close the window, but, since she doesn't want to seem rude or demanding she didn;t say "Close the window you bozo"). Oh! Are you cold? Here, let me close the window. Conventional indirectness: A: How's it going? B: Surely B does not reason as follows: (Hmmmmmm. What is 'it.' Where could 'it' be going? What the !~@#$%^&*()_+ is A talking about.) Instead he just says "Fine." Notice that you have to "know" the language to get the conventional indirectness, but you can "figure out" the indirectness in the first example (in a language you spoke badly). I dare not suggest that the line between the two is fixed, if for no other reason than the fact that conventions must be established, and, while they are on their way, they may exist is a muddy middle ground. dInIs But aren't "How do you do?" and its even more truncated for "Howdy" examples of something even further removed from intent than an indirect speech act? These sound rather more like instances of what Malinowski called phatic communion, where it's the verbal social interaction that's important not the communication of intent. Herb > When the grammatical form of a sentence does not match up with the > "intent" such a form usually carries, people in pragmatics refer to > it as an "indirect speech act" or, simply "indirectness." For > example, The interrogative "Is it cold in here?" could actually be a > "request" or "command," the latter having direct expression in "Shut > the window you bozo!" (Well, the 'you bozo' part could be a little > gratuitous.) > > There are many more "intents" or "speech acts") than there are > grammatical forms, so this mismatch (or indirectness) is inevitable. > On the other hand, Brown and Levinson, in their famous "Politeness," > explored the idea that much language indirectness comes from self- > and other-face-protection. "Do you have a dollar?" is less direct > (and does not threaten the speaker's or hearer's "face") than "Gimme > a dollar." > > Note that a "speech act joke" (perhaps the lowest form of humor) can > be accomplished (if the word "accomplishment" can be used in such a > case) one's pretending interpreting a grammatical question directly > > "Do you have a dollar?" > "Yes." > "Well, will you loan me a dollar." > "Oh. Did you want me to loan you a dollar?" > > dInIs > > > > > > > >>At 11:14 AM -0500 11/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose literal > >>meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as something else. > >> Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are you?" but is > >>used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which literally > >>means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > > > > >Aside from "idiom" and perhaps "expression" I don't think there's a > >term for this, but I have a few good examples: > >"Break a leg" -- (in theater; = Good luck!) > >German: "Hals- und Beinbruch!" (literally: Neck and leg break!) i.e. > >You should break your neck and leg. = Good luck! (This German > >expression is probably the source of English "Break a leg!") > >"Kick the bucket" ( = die) > > > > Also, a lady from South America told me that she had a job in > >Florida, and her boss had to leave the store for an hour or so. As > >he left, he told his employee that she should "hold down the fort." > >The lady is very conscientious > >and wanted very much to carry out her boss' order, but even though > >she understood each individual word ("hold," "down," "fort"), she had > >no idea what the boss wanted her to do. > > > > She was very nervous the whole time, since the boss might be upset > >upon his return that she had not held down the fort, whatever that > >meant. Of course, everything turned out fine, but she still vividly > >remembered the incident and her discomfort when she told me the story > >some years later. > > > >Gerald Cohen > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 4 12:45:53 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 07:45:53 -0500 Subject: phrases whose literal meaning... In-Reply-To: <20021104084548.11926.qmail@web13310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It was an expression I used as early as 1948. Glad to see some good uses hang in there. dInIs An expression I hear students use is "Can I see your pencil?" , meaning "Can I use your pencil?" --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > #My daughter needs to know the term to be applied to phrases whose > literal > #meaning is one thing but which are universally interpreted as > something else. > # Her examples are "How do you do?" which literally asks "How are > you?" but is > #used merely as "Hello"; and one from Hebrew, "mazel tov" which > literally > #means "good luck" but is universally used as "congratulations". > > Actually each of these is one remove further from literality. "How > do > you do?", taken literally, is the same construction as "How do you > sew?" > or "How do you S?", and is almost ungrammatical, since "do" as main > verb > with no explicit object is almost obsolete. It's a frozen form, > supplanted in current syntax by "How are you doing?" And "mazel > tov" is > literally 'a good star', which by an astrological metaphor means > 'good > luck'. > > -- Mark A. Mandel ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 13:57:47 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:57:47 -0800 Subject: cheese out In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434150@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Variations on the phrase "Cheese me off" were fairly common around Salt Lake City in the late 60's and early 70's. I haven't heard this usage for years. At the time, I thought it had evolved from "Tees me off". --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This > American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it > verbatim but it was something like: > "That cheeses me out." > The reference was to patriotic music and the > speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The > speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a > regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the > pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', > which I think we discussed some months ago. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 14:03:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:03:32 EST Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 4 14:06:53 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:06:53 -0800 Subject: Dialect change In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021101221346.00a57ab0@lamar.colostate.edu> Message-ID: I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as possible are two things which are stressed consistently. --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > issue I have been > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > recently received some > surprising evidence. > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > kind (that is not meant > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > hear sort of mainstream > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > frequently notice the singer > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > monophthonizing /ai/ > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > not noticed them. Yet, > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > interviewed, s/he uses a > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > sociolinguistic change that I would > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > this phenomenon to a > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > naive and r-pronouncing, > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > nothing new to them, > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > was a basic part of the > instruction. > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > knowledge? Any similar > experiences? > > Karl Krahnke > English Department > Colorado State University ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Nov 4 14:07:45 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:07:45 -0600 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I'm familiar with 'cheese X off' which I take to be a milder version of 'piss X off'. What interested me about this example was the different meaning. She wasn't indicating her anger, rather her opinion on the cheesiness of the music. -----Original Message----- From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Mon 11/4/2002 7:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: cheese out Variations on the phrase "Cheese me off" were fairly common around Salt Lake City in the late 60's and early 70's. I haven't heard this usage for years. At the time, I thought it had evolved from "Tees me off". --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This > American Life_ radio program. I don't remember it > verbatim but it was something like: > "That cheeses me out." > The reference was to patriotic music and the > speaker's meaning was that she found it cheesy. The > speaker was a Texan but I doubt this is a > regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the > pattern established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', > which I think we discussed some months ago. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Nov 4 14:07:42 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:07:42 -0500 Subject: Query: German Words of the year Message-ID: De: JochenABaer at aol.com Date: Mon 28 Oct 2002 10:51:53 America/New_York Resent-To: ADS-L ADS-L ?: gbarrett at americandialect.org Objet: Query: "Words of the year" "Please forward this message to whom it may concern." Dear madam or sir, On behalf of the "Gesellschaft f?r deutsche Sprache" ("German Language Society") in Wiesbaden/Germany, may I kindly invite you to participate in a publication project? Since 1971, the Gesellschaft f?r deutsche Sprache votes the German "word of the year". As a member of the Gesellschaft, I recently have been asked to be the editor of an anthology, which contains some research on the history of this project, on its cultural relevance and on the public interest, as well as short essays on every "word of the year". Of course, in this context, it would be very interesting to refer to similar projects in other countries, too. I would like to invite you to participate in this anthology. I would be most obliged, if you could contribute a short essay (5-10 pages) on the "words of the year" selected by the American Dialect Society. It should contain some remarks on the Society, its structures and purposes, especially, of course, the idea of voting on the annual "word of the year", the history of the project, the criteria, on which the vote is based etc. The essay would be translated into German (so, if it was convenient to you, it could also be a text that had been published before). As the anthology will try to connect specifically scientific interests with those of a broader public, the essay may well pursue a stilistic "middle course". For all further questions, of course I will be to your disposal. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours sincerely Jochen B?r ************************************ Dr. Jochen A. B?r JochenABaer at aol.com Universit?t Heidelberg Germanistisches Seminar Hauptstrasse 207-209 69117 Heidelberg GERMANY Tel. 0049-6221-543244 Fax 0049-6221-543257 -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org Small Business Apple Macintosh Support in New York City http://www.worldnewyork.org/ From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Nov 4 16:34:25 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:34:25 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <168.1690f643.2af7d834@aol.com> Message-ID: > In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: > > > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? > > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one > shudders and exclaims > : > > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." > > "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age > I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) > has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should > not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb > ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits > your context better than a derivation from the name of the > Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar > in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely > to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than > to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. Having seen the same cartoon, I immediately took it to be from the search engine, not googly eyes. "To google" is used not only to mean search a web page, but to "google" a person is to do a quick background check on that person, searching the web for references to them, not just to find their web pages. Often you google someone to find their current address or place of employment. In an earlier era the guy in the bar might have said, "someone just stepped on my grave." I've never heard anyone use "to google" simply to mean to look at someone. The name of the search engine comes from the mathematical term "googol," with the spelling changed for trademark purposes. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Nov 4 17:14:55 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:14:55 -0500 Subject: Dialect change Message-ID: Like James Smith, I'm an active choral singer and conductor. As I linguist I've often been bemused by the instructions that conductors give their choirs about diction, hardly a new reaction, since Pike talked, I think in his Phonetics, about taking voice lessons just to learn the vocabulary and theory that voice teachers apply to diction. The reason, I think, that choral conductors, including me, try to derhotacize choral diction is that the American retroflexed cenral approximant involve also increased pharyngeal constriction, which seriously cuts resonance. The whole choral sound weakens at a postvocalic /r/. As far as the r-lessness of much pop music is concerned, I think there is also some vocal training involved here. I have read that when Motown was at its height in the 60s-80s, they insisted on rigorous voice training for their vocalists, and any good vocal training will train the singer to drop the postvocalic /r/s. Herb Stahlke > I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a > number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to > make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the > end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as > possible are two things which are stressed > consistently. > > > > --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > > issue I have been > > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > > recently received some > > surprising evidence. > > > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > > kind (that is not meant > > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > > hear sort of mainstream > > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > > frequently notice the singer > > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > > monophthonizing /ai/ > > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > > not noticed them. Yet, > > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > > interviewed, s/he uses a > > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > > sociolinguistic change that I would > > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > > this phenomenon to a > > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > > naive and r-pronouncing, > > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > > nothing new to them, > > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > > was a basic part of the > > instruction. > > > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > > knowledge? Any similar > > experiences? > > > > Karl Krahnke > > English Department > > Colorado State University > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 17:21:01 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:21:01 EST Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: In a message dated 11/3/02 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > TUNA > > Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. from the making of America database Resources of the Pacific slope : a statistical and descriptive summary of the mines and minerals, climate, topography, agriculture, commerce ... of the states and territories west of the Rocky Mountains / by J. Ross Browne ; with a sketch of the settlement and exploration of Lower California / [by A.S. Taylor]. Browne, J. Ross (John Ross), 1821-1875. 678, 200 p. ; 24 cm. New York : D. Appleton, 1869. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AFQ0684.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0843 page A165 "The fruit of the tarajo is similar to the tuna (prickly pear)..." http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AJL3430.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0124 "The tuna, or gigantic fruit-bearing cactus..." > I've been reading books on Mediterranean travels since coming back from > Malta. See A VOYAGE TO CADIZ AND GIBRALTAR, UP THE MEDITERRANEAN TO SICILY > AND MALTA IN 1810 & 1811 (London: F. Harding, 1815) by Lt. Gen. Cockburn, in > two volumes. Volume Two, pages 292-295, has a chapter called "The Tunny > Factory." > The NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has: > > "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it > going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." > Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 > In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 ( > Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. > > I have to check the original. That "(tuna)" could have been added much > later by the editors, but "Aku" is still useful. > The NEW YORK TIMES had lots of "tuna" hits before 1881. To reduce it, I > added "fish." Still, I didn't find a pre-1881 "tuna." I got the same bad " > matches" that I got on "jazz" and "dude." Fred Shapiro can re-check if I > missed a good hit...I think the "tuna" matches were really "tons." > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE > > What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. > THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and > THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). > I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I > looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." > I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. > Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of > these as "hot dog" matches. > Bad search engine! Bad! > I'll try it a little more, but I'm going crazy. > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 18:15:24 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:15:24 EST Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: Please disregard my earlier posting on the subject. I hit the wrong key and sent an unfinished version of this post. In a message dated 11/3/02 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > TUNA > > Andy Smith asked about "tuna" and if I could beat 1881. Easy, and nothing fishy about it either. More precisely, it is fishy, but it does not involve fish. "Tuna" is a word the Spanish applied to a New World cactus whose botanical name is either _Opuntia tuna_ or _Opuntia ficus-indica_ (there is some uncertainty as to whether _O. tuna_ is a separate species or merely a variety of _O. ficus-indica_. This is sort of a "prickly pair" among botanists.). This plant was introduced into the Mediterranean and other areas and is known in Israel as the "sabra". In English there are a variety of names, including "prickly pear", "Indian fig", and "tuna". Herely is a samply of pre-1881 English-language citations for the Opuntia "tuna" in the Making of America database Americanisms; the English of the New world. Schele De Vere, Maximilian, 1820-1898. 685 p. New York, C. Scribner & company, 1872. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AGD2486.0001 .001;view=image;seq=00000688 "The prickly pear cactus, known also as Indian fig (Cactus opuntia) bears a purplish pear-shaped fruit, which in Southern countries becomes not only edible, but luscious, and is there generally known under its Spanish name tuna-a term which also serves to designate the pleasant beverage made from the fruit." The book of the world: being an account of all republics, empires, kingdoms, and nations, in reference to their geography, statistics, commerce. &c. ... By Richard S. Fisher ... Illustrated with maps and charts. Fisher, Richard Swainson. 2 v. 3 fold. maps. (inc. front.) fold. col. plates 26 cm. New York, J. H. Colton, 1852-53. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=ABL1714.0002 .001;view=image;seq=00000397 "[referring to the Etna region of Sicily] By the side of the plane, the poplar, and the willow, grow the cactus tuna, or prickly fig, the orange, the citron, the olive, the myrtle, the laurel, the carob tree, and the pomegranate; Resources of the Pacific slope : a statistical and descriptive summary of the mines and minerals, climate, topography, agriculture, commerce ... of the states and territories west of the Rocky Mountains / by J. Ross Browne ; with a sketch of the settlement and exploration of Lower California / [by A.S. Taylor]. Browne, J. Ross (John Ross), 1821-1875. 678, 200 p. ; 24 cm. New York : D. Appleton, 1869. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AFQ0684.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0843 page A165 "The fruit of the tarajo is similar to the tuna (prickly pear)..." The natural wealth of California. Comprising duly history, geography, topography, and scenery; climate; agriculture and commercial products; geology, zoology, and botany; mineralogy, mines, and mining processes; manufactures; steamship lines, railroads, and commerce; immigration,a detailed description of each county. By Titus Fey Cronise. Cronise, Titus Fey. San Francisco H. H. Hancroft & Co., 1868 http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;sid=8e75e977f7 0d91cfc544d73aee41f6f6;q1=tuna;cite1restrict=title;cite2restrict=title;cite3re strict=title;rgn=full%20text;firstpubl1=1800;firstpubl2=1925;idno=AJL3430.0001 .001;view=image;seq=0124 "The tuna, or gigantic fruit-bearing cactus..." I was not able to find a pre-1881 usage of "tuna" meaning "tunafish". The next time you meet an Israeli, be sure to tell him he's a tuna. > "Why we had some very nice Aku (tuna), it tasted so good,--we all enjoyed it > going to bed that night really _maona_ (stuffed)." > Letter from Kaleleonalani, Queen of the Hawaiian Islands, February 14, 1866 > In THE VICTORIAN VISITORS: AN ACCOUNT OF THE HAWAIIAN KINGDOM 1861-1866 ( > Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1958), pg. 351. It is not clear from context whether this aku is tunafish or sabra. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > GERRITSEN COLLECTION ONLINE > > What we have here is a fine collection with a bad search engine. > THE COOK is here. So is MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT BOOK (1846) and > THE CAROLINA HOUSEWIFE (1851). > I limited it to the years 1800-1918. I typed in "jazz." 377 hits! I > looked at the "matches." Not one was "jazz." > I limited it to the years 1800-1910. I typed in "hot dog." 32 hits. > Most weren't even in English sources. I don't know why it considered any of > these as "hot dog" matches. > Bad search engine! Bad! Probably not a bad search engine but rather an OCR reader struggling with poor-quality originals. There are not many bad search engines on the Internet. There are, however, thousands upon thousands of pages of text which should never have been let near an OCR reader in the first place. Top it off with the habit of MOA (and I'm sure many other databases) of scanning by page instead of by column, meaning that many spurious words are created across a column break and it's not surprising that you get tons of false positives. Suppose the OCR reader encounters the following: ...... For- tuna ..... This is obviously the name Fortuna that happens to be split across a line break. So should the search engine disregard it on a search on the word "tuna"? No, because it might possibly be the name of a health-food group "Against-Meat-For-Tuna". By the way, in the 1872 citation above, the OCR reader misread the orginal as "tZuna" and I found it only because the OCR reader correctly picked up the entry "tuna" in the index of the book. - Jim Landau From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 4 18:16:55 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:16:55 EST Subject: ADS at LSA schedule? Message-ID: Jesse can't find our program because the ADS newsletter is behind schedule (I hope to finish it this week) and the program was undergoing some changes. But here it now is in all its finality and glory. - Allan Metcalf American Dialect Society FINAL PROGRAM Atlanta Hilton, January 2003 THURSDAY, JANUARY 2 Session 1: Language Attitudes and Perception, 1:00-2:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 1. "Jew vs. Gentile." Thomas M. Paikeday, Lexicography, Inc., Brampton, Ontario. 2. "Reality Check! Evaluations of Real and Imagined Varieties of Non-U.S. English." Stephanie Lindemann, Georgia State Univ. 3. "The 'Grand Daddy of English': U.S., U.K., and Australian Students' Attitudes Towards Varieties of English." Betsy Evans, Peter Garrett, and Angie Williams, Cardiff Univ., Wales. Session 2: Lexical Variation in English: The American West and Montreal, 3:00-5:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 4. "Variation on the Range: Ranching Terms in Colorado Folk Speech." Lamont Antieau, Univ. of Georgia. 5. "Apparent Time vs. Real Time: New Evidence from Montreal English." Charles Boberg, McGill Univ. 6. "Substantial Evidence of Lexical Variation in El Paso, Texas." Anne Marie Hamilton, Univ. of Georgia. 7. "The Snake River Region Revisited: Dialect Change in Southeastern Idaho from 1971 to 2001." Sonja Launspach, Idaho State Univ. Session 3: Grammatical Variation, 5:30-7:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 8. "Need in? Want Out?" Erica J. Benson, Michigan State Univ. 9. "Grammar in Southeastern Ohio Speech: South Midland or Appalachian?" Sandra L. Nesbitt and Beverly Olson Flanigan, Ohio Univ. 10. "An Investigation of LAGS Past Tense Forms." Allison P. Burkette, Univ. of Mississippi. FRIDAY, JANUARY 3 Executive Council, 830-10:30 a.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Open meeting; all members welcome. Presiding: ADS President Dennis Preston. The Executive Council discusses and sets policy for the Society and hears reports form officers, editors, committee chairs, and regional secretaries. This year's most important agenda items are: 1. Matters concerning American Speech recently raised by editor Connie Eble. Among them, she would like to retire as editor after her tenth year (in 2005), so we need to begin a search for a new editor. 2. Changes to the ADS constitution proposed by Ronald Butters. Words of the Year Nominations Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Open meeting of New Words Committee 10:30 a.m.-noon: New Words Committee. Chair, Wayne Glowka, Georgia Coll. and State Univ. Review of new words of 2002, and of nominations for Words of the Year (see Page 3). Final candidates will be identified in preparation for the afternoon vote (see Page XXX). Session 4: Phonetics and Phonology, 2:00-3:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 11. "Show Me Mergers: How Missourians Deal with Too Many Vowels." Matthew J. Gordon, Univ. of Missouri, Columbia. 12. "Mergers in the Mountains." Kirk Hazen, West Virginia Univ. 13. "N/o:/ W/e:/ J/o:/ s/e:/: A Look at Monophthongization in Two NCCS Dialects." Nancy Niedzielski and Alexis Grant, Rice Univ. Session 5: Discourse Communities, Strategies, and Speech Acts, 3:45-5:15 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 14. "Linguistic Ecology and the Construction of Sociocultural Identity: Discourse Communities of a Southern American University." Catherine Davies, Univ. of Alabama. 15. "Appalachia Discourse Strategies in the Literary Dialect of Charles Frazier's Cold Mountain." Stephanie Hysmith, Ohio Univ. 16. "Tobaccospeak: Image Repair as a Variety of American English." Roger W. Shuy, Georgetown Univ. Words of the Year: Final Discussion and Voting, 5:30-6:30 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton Bring-Your-Own-Book Exhibit and Reception, 6:30-7:30 p.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton SATURDAY, JANUARY 4 Annual Business Meeting, 8:00-9:00 a.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton. Agenda: 1. Nominating Committee report: For Vice President 2003-04, succeeding to President 2005-06: Joan Hall, Dictionary of American Regional English. For Executive Committee 2003-06: Robert Bayley, Univ. of Texas, San Antonio. For Nominating Committee 2003-04: Bethany Dumas, Univ. of Tennessee. 2. Proposed amendments to Bylaws. 3. Other matters. Session 6: Regional Varieties, 9:15-11:15 a.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 17. "Urbanization vs. Regionalization in Utah Speech: A Reanalysis with Ramifications." David Bowie, Brigham Young Univ. 18. "The Regional Alignment of African American English in the Smoky Mountains." Becky Childs, Univ. of Georgia; Christine Mallinson, North Carolina State Univ. 19. "Prolegomena to Any Future Historical Dictionary of African American English." Michael Adams, Albright Coll. 20. "English Comes to Georgia, 1700-1750." Richard W. Bailey, Univ. of Michigan. "English Comes to Georgia, 1700-1750" Session 7: Gender and Culture, 11:30 a.m.-1:00 p.m. Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton 21. "Gender Differences in Narrative: The Case of Skydivers." Stephen E. Brown, Johns Hopkins Univ.; Ceil Lucas, Gallaudet Univ. 22. "Gender Variation in the Use of YES and NO in Tactile American Sign Language." Karen Petronio, Eastern Kentucky Univ.; Valerie Dively, Gallaudet Univ. 23. "Behind the Magic Screen: Cultural Values and Linguistic Prejudice." Patricia Cukor-Avila and Aubrey Hargis, Univ. of North Texas. Annual Luncheon, 1:15-2:45 p.m. Clayton Room, Atlanta Hilton Please make reservations in advance with Executive Secretary Allan Metcalf. See Page 3. Speaker: ADS President Dennis Preston, "Where Are the Real Dialects of American English At Anyhow?" Special Session: Teaching Varieties of English in America, 3:00-4:30 p.m. Panel sponsored by the ADS Committee on Teaching Fulton/Cobb Rooms, Atlanta Hilton Chair: Anne Curzan. 24. "The Broadest Impacts of Teaching About Language." Kirk Hazen, West Virginia Univ. 25. "Teaching American Dialects: Bringing Scholarship to the Schools." Beverly Olson Flanigan, Ohio Univ. 26. "Varieties of English in America: The Creole Pieces of the Puzzle." Alicia Beckford Wassink, Univ. of Washington. That concludes the ADS annual meeting, but stick around for an LSA symposium on Sunday: Language Variation in the American South 9:00 a.m. to noon, Ballroom D, Atlanta Hilton Organizer: Walt Wolfram (NC SU) Participants: Sylvie Dubois (LA SU): The distinctiveness of Cajun Vernacular English: A dialect of English with its own history William A. Kretzschmar (U GA): Mapping Southern English Natalie Schilling-Estes (Georgetown U): Language change in "conservative" dialects: Evidence from Southern American enclave communities Erik R. Thomas (NC SU): Secrets of Southern vowel shifting Tracey Weldon (U SC): Copula variability in Gullah & AAVE Walt Wolfram (NC SU): Documenting Southern American English: A video presentation From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 4 18:54:23 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:54:23 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Susan Gilbert asks, >> When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? I'm not sure whether the question's intended to be taken literally, or you really mean that you object to the usage. If the former: I'd say, as one who both hears and uses the term, probably within the past year or so, possibly two at the outside. If the latter: "Google John Smith" just seems a shorter, more convenient way to say, "Go to the Google search engine and enter the phrase 'John Smith'." I find it interesting, BTW, that the term has *not* been turned into a generic meaning "use [any] search engine"; rather, it refers specifically to the trade-named Google facility. --Dodi Schultz From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:03:07 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:03:07 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <200211041354_MC3-1-18F2-F5EA@compuserve.com> Message-ID: I have been using and hearing the term for at least 2-3 years. Bethany From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:14:59 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:14:59 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? I don't use Google for Search in Google for . . . . , maybe because I don't use Google a lot. Does "google" have associated meanings because of similarly sounding words and therefore work as a verb abbreviation? "Bethany K. Dumas" wrote: > I have been using and hearing the term for at least 2-3 years. > > Bethany From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Nov 4 19:19:29 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:19:29 -0800 Subject: Dialect change Message-ID: I have asked several choral singers about this and they generally say the same thing-- 'sounds better without the /r/s'. I guess that is simply a matter of taste. I am not bothered by /r/s in songs at all. I do remember a song from the early 80's by a group called REO Speedwagon, "Keep on Loving You", in which the lead singer, Kevin Cronin, exagerated his /r/s. I think one reason the song was so catchy (it went to #1 in the US) was because of the exagerated /r/s-- foreveRRR. Anyone else remember that song? Fritz >>> jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM 11/04/02 06:06AM >>> I'm not a professional musician, but having sung in a number of chorals during my life, I can say that, to make the sound more pleasing, dropping the "r" at the end of words and eliminating diphthongs as much as possible are two things which are stressed consistently. --- Karl Krahnke wrote: > The discussion on dialect change in song raises an > issue I have been > vaguely aware of for some time and on which I > recently received some > surprising evidence. > > I do not regularly listen to popular music of any > kind (that is not meant > as a snobbish remark--I just don't), but when I do > hear sort of mainstream > vocals (sorry, I can't be more precise, yet) I > frequently notice the singer > using a relatively r-less pronunciation and > monophthonizing /ai/ > diphthongs. There may be other features, but I have > not noticed them. Yet, > as several of you have noted, when the singer is > interviewed, s/he uses a > fully r-ful dialect with diphthongs. > > I thought I was on to some unrecognized > sociolinguistic change that I would > get around to researching some day, when I mentioned > this phenomenon to a > freshman class of mine--extremely linguistically > naive and r-pronouncing, > diphthongizers. They shrugged and said that it was > nothing new to them, > that several had taken pop singing lessons and that > was a basic part of the > instruction. > > I haven't gone any further with this. Is this common > knowledge? Any similar > experiences? > > Karl Krahnke > English Department > Colorado State University ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:22:57 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:22:57 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <3DC6C733.766F619B@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: >Are there regional preferences for search engines? I don't know. Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? I don't know. >I don't use Google for Search in Google for . >. . . , maybe because I don't use Google a lot. Does "google" have associated >meanings because of similarly sounding words and therefore work as a verb >abbreviation? I don't know, but I don't think so. I use the search engine because it usually works best for me. But I would probably use the verb regardless of which search engine I used - on the rare occasion when I might use another search engine for some reason. Or I might say, "I couldn't google it, so I used Yahoo." Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:27:02 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:27:02 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <000501c28420$0a6a3e30$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: At 8:34 AM -0800 11/4/02, Dave Wilton wrote: > > In a message dated 11/4/02 7:24:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> susandgilbert at MSN.COM writes: >> >> > When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? >> > New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one >> shudders and exclaims >> : >> > "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." >> >> "Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age >> I won't even estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) >> has spawned the adjective "googly" and therefore it should >> not be improbable that someone would also use it as a verb >> ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >> your context better than a derivation from the name of the >> Internet search engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar >> in question is notorious as a pick-up bar) one is more likely >> to notice having eyed in a strange or remarkable manner than >> to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. > >Having seen the same cartoon, I immediately took it to be from the search >engine, not googly eyes. "To google" is used not only to mean search a web >page, but to "google" a person is to do a quick background check on that >person, searching the web for references to them, not just to find their web >pages. Often you google someone to find their current address or place of >employment. In an earlier era the guy in the bar might have said, "someone >just stepped on my grave." I've never heard anyone use "to google" simply to >mean to look at someone. > FWIW, I saw the cartoon and immediately thought only of the search-engine context, probably for the reasons Dave mentions. And if the caps in Susan's query were in the original caption (I don't recall either way), that would clinch it. larry From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 4 19:38:03 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:38:03 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <168.1690f643.2af7d834@aol.com> Message-ID: >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. I think the Google search engine is named after the word "googol" meaning a huge number, but I think the name -- probably deliberately -- also resembles "googly eyes" and/or the verb "goggle" = "stare" (or "look"). As for those googly eyes, the exact etymology is not immediately clear to me, but Lighter's HDAS shows "goo-goo" (transitive verb) = "to cast amorous glances at" [which probably could have occurred as "google" too!]: e.g. (1901) "She put her Chin on his shoulder and Goo-Gooed him and he lost the Power of Speech." This reminds me of the German folk/drinking song beginning "Maedele, rueck, rueck, rueck an meine gruene Seite" [something like "Girl, shift, shift, shift against my green (i.e., friendly) side"] which has a stanza beginning "Maedele, guck, guck, guck in meine schwarzen Augen" [as I recall: "Girl, look, look, look into my black eyes"] ... maybe the goo-goo eyes were guck-guck eyes. With reference to another thread, the song seems to be about Knudelei = canoodling. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 19:50:52 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 14:50:52 -0500 Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:25 PM -0700 11/3/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >Re: kick the bucket, go to the bathroom, etc. > >The old-fashioned school term for these, particularly used in foreign >language teaching, is "idiom", or "idiomatic expression". No need to go >much further in search of a label, when this will do for most people >(except for linguists, who, as we agreed earlier in a lively exchange, are >not normal). > I agree that these are idioms; this is because their conventional meaning has changed (as I was saying yesterday, citing Morgan's argument on "go to the bathroom"). My point was that the conventionalization goes through stages, and the earlier stages don't correspond to idioms--although, as Searle pointed out in his 1975 "Indirect Speech Acts" paper, we may want to talk about idiomatic uses of language even when there are no idioms as such involved. Thus, compare Can you open the window? (conventionally used to indirectly request window-opening) Are you able to/Do you have the ability to open the window? (not so used) In Morgan's example, when you or more likely a political operative or long-distance service rep calls me and I pick up the phone and say "This is Larry Horn", no idiom is involved, but there is a rule of usage that requires this form (or one of its permissible variants, e.g. "Larry Horn speaking/here") and excludes, say, "Larry Horn is speaking/on the phone" or "Here is Larry Horn". One more example from Morgan: If a friend asks you for a loan and you reply "Do I look like a rich man?", there's no idiom involved here ("Do I look like a rich man?" isn't an idiom for "No" or even for "I can't/won't lend you money"), but there's a cultural convention within the community that this response in this context amounts to a refusal to lend the money. So referring to idioms is useful, but doesn't exhaust the phenomena we've been discussing. Conventions of usage, as well as conventions of meaning, are involved. larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 4 20:04:46 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:04:46 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Both a cousin who lives in Brooklyn and a daughter who lives in the Bronx know and use the term. It's standard practice to "google" a date [check the name for web-pages, contributions to news groups, &c.] To answer the question as to why it isn't "yahoo" a date, the answer is simply that Google absorbed "dejanews.com" which indexed usenet newsgroups. See the press release at http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/pressrelease48.html _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 4 20:18:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:18:25 -0500 Subject: cheese out In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434150@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM -0600 11/3/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >I heard a wonderful new (to me) usage on the _This American Life_ >radio program. I don't remember it verbatim but it was something >like: >"That cheeses me out." >The reference was to patriotic music and the speaker's meaning was >that she found it cheesy. The speaker was a Texan but I doubt this >is a regionalism. It seems a natural extension of the pattern >established by 'freak' and 'weird' + 'out', which I think we >discussed some months ago. Looking at a few "cheese(s) me out" from the web, it doesn't seem as though "cheesy" is involved. Instead, it's looks more like a blend of "cheese off" with the "X out" pattern. There are a (larger) bunch of "X pisses me out" that seem identical. (I'm also curious about where the "cheese" in "cheese off" comes from. Haven't checked RHHDAS yet.) Larry From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Nov 4 20:20:03 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:20:03 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: > To answer the question as to why it isn't "yahoo" a date, > the answer is simply that Google absorbed "dejanews.com" > which indexed usenet newsgroups. I would suggest that the reason people don't say "to yahoo someone" is because Google has been the best free search engine available for a while now. (indeed, translators use it as a virtual dictionary to check terms bilingually for prevalence of usage--no other search engine returns as many hits). Furthermore, not only do savvy internet users know that Yahoo functions more as a directory than a search engine per se, but my impression is that Yahoo is considered so, well, 20th Century! Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From simon at IPFW.EDU Mon Nov 4 20:30:04 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:30:04 -0500 Subject: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: ADS at the MMLA, Marriott City Center, Minneapolis MN Dear Scholars, Students, etc. of Language Structure, Meaning, Use, Variation, Change and So On, Please join us this Saturday, Nov. 9, 2002, Sat., 4:00-5:30 p.m., in Deer Lake 108, of the Minneapolis Marriot City Center for what promises to be an exciting set of presentations. (Afterward, I am treating everyone for a libation of choice). The papers: Language Variation and Change in the Urban Midwest: The Case of St. Louis, Missouri Thomas E. Murray Kansas State University Michigan shop talk: Is a 'grievance' taken more seriously than a 'concern'? Jan Bernsten University of Michigan - Flint Portable community: the linguistic and psychological reality of Midwestern Pennsylvania German Steven Hartman Keiser Marquette University A Critical Approach to Discourse Variation Kathyrn Remlinger Grand Valley State University beth lee simon, midwest regional secretary, ADS associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 21:35:19 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:35:19 -0800 Subject: ex to grind In-Reply-To: <200211020207_MC3-1-18B9-6234@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Woops. No, I didn't mean to suggest that "ex to grind" should be in a dictionary. My query went to the existence of such word-play in any lexical sources other than the obvious "word fun" books that abound. Something like "ex to grind" would carry with it the obvious association with _ex_ and serve as another attestation--should one be needed. That is, puns confirm the currency of their targets, and I was wondering whether, given that fact, they ever serve / have ever served as entry-worthy material. Dodi spoke to that question with her third sentence, below. PR > Peter Richardson suggests that the above phrase should be in a dictionary. > > Why? It's not a new meaning, just a play on words. I've never heard of > dictionaries' including wordplay. > > --Dodi Schultz > From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 21:41:54 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:41:54 -0800 Subject: Chowder and Marching Society (1939) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cushclamocree! Somebody else remembers Barnaby and Mr. O'Malley! (I recall the Little Men's..., but can't confirm the "Gnomes, Elves" part of it.) PR On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > # I was asked if I could beat 1942 for "Chowder and Marching > #Society." We have at least one Harvard person on the list. > > I don't know the date, but in Crockett Johnson's comic strip "Barnaby", > ca. WW2 and probably a bit earlier, the leprechaun (or something > similar) Mr. O'Malley is a member of the Gnomes, Elves, and Little Men's > Chowder and Marching Society. I may have the name slightly off, but it > definitely ends with the target phrase. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Mon Nov 4 22:49:30 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:49:30 -0500 Subject: dialectology in grad schools? Message-ID: A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 4 22:52:46 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:52:46 -0500 Subject: Tuna (1866?); Gerritsen Collection Online Message-ID: To James Landau (et al.): Next time you need to relay a URL that runs to a couple of hundred characters--or even half that--try: http://makeashorterlink.com/ or http://tinyurl.com --DS From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Nov 4 23:17:15 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 15:17:15 -0800 Subject: American Sign Language minor? Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, We're considering the introduction of a minor in American Sign Language and would be grateful for any information about other such programs. Thanks very much in advance. Cordially, Peter Richardson Linfield College From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Nov 5 00:05:50 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 16:05:50 -0800 Subject: American Sign Language minor? Message-ID: [cc:] Peter Richardson wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > We're considering the introduction of a minor in American Sign Language > and would be grateful for any information about other such programs. > Thanks very much in advance. > > Cordially, > > Peter Richardson > Linfield College University of Rochester East Carolina Univ. College of St.Catherine University of New Hampshire - Manchester More ... search: "American Sign Language" minor Sal -- 3000+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:22:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:22:10 -0500 Subject: Cappuccino & Zucchini (Baedeker, 1893) Message-ID: ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by K. Baedeker Second Part--Central Italy and ROme Eleventh Revised Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1893 Pg. XVIII: _Zucchini_, gherkins. Pg. XIX: _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before being served (30-50c.; _cappuccino_, or small cup, cheaper); or _caffe e latte_, _i.e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. (This is about three years earlier than I'd spotted these items in an 1896 edition. I didn't see them in an 1891 edition. I'm using the edition in Columbia University's Avery Library, if anyone wants to check. The NYPL and the LOC didn't have 1893--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:45:28 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:45:28 -0500 Subject: Windy City (1883) Message-ID: It's even earlier! This is from American Periodical Series online (it's also on microfilm, if you want to check the old way), a new electronic database from ProQuest, available here at Columbia University (but not at that cheapskate NYU Bobst Library). 20 October 1883, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 11: It was here that the late lamented Hulbert, president of the Chicagos, saw him and signed him for the Windy City club, where he has been playing ever since.--_Cincinnati Enquirer._ 14 June 1884, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 11: Several members of the Chicago team indulged in stimulants to an excess, and Al Spaulding let out his indignation in a letter to Babe Anson the other day. In it he says he is tired of making excuses for the team's poor showing, and directs Anson to assess a heavy fine on any player for the slightest infraction of a rule. The Windy City crew will now have to conduct themselves very straight, or pay for their fa(illegible--ed.) in the shape of fines.--_Philadelphia Item._ There's also this: 17 July 1880, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 7: The little village of Degraff, Ohio, is situated in the beautiful valley of the Miami, tne miles west of Bellefontaine, and while it only has a population a little less than one thousand, according to the veracious census enumerator, it certainly can develop enough pure cussedness within its limits to entitle it to be classed as the little "Windy City," a name not inappropriate, as every now and then a cyclone or tornado strikes and almost annihilates it. The New York Sun Charles A. Dana 1893 Columbian Exposition myth should be long dead now, but no, you gotta check this thing every day... 11/03/2002 The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel All 1H Winter winds don't chill fest fever By SUSAN BLINKHORN Special to the Journal Sentinel Sunday, November 3, 2002 Windy City, indeed. When old man winter appears in Chicago, the gusts that blow off Lake Michigan and through the city's skyscraper canyons are enough to knock the Marshall Field's shopping bag right out of your hand. Windy as it may be, however, Chicago's infamous moniker has nothing to do with the weather (Milwaukee, on average, has higher wind speeds) and everything to do with the city's passion for hosting great parties. Legend has it that back in 1893, the city's lobbying efforts to host the World's Fair were so verbose and long- winded that the New York City press dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." (...) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 00:47:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:47:47 EST Subject: Phrases whose literal meaning.... Message-ID: My daughter has this response: The original reason why I wanted to know was because I used a phrase in Japanese, "daisuki na hon", which I translated as my favorite book. Someone e-mailed me and said that I was wrong, that what I said translated as "much-loved book" and the real 'favorite book' translation would be "ichiban na suki hon" (which literally means 'first-loved book'). I wanted to show that the literal translation became sort of a colloquial expression... The J. Landau family From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 01:00:18 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:00:18 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I have no doubt that the cartoon referred to the use of the Google search engine to gather information. The earliest reference I've seen is from The Globe and Mail, Mar. 18, 2000: >>I've just spent an afternoon Googling around the net (www.google.dom, a splendid search engine) . . . .<< Unrelated full articles on Googling, meaning specifically the use of Google to gather information on potential romantic partners, were published in the New York Observer and The Statesman on January 15, 2001. Google asserts that its name is a play on the word googol. That may be true in part, but I believe it's also based on the existing verb "google" (not in OED), which I take to be a variation on the verb "goggle" (to stare with wide and bulging eyes). The earliest I've seen is in the Los Angeles Times, June 19, 1986: >>Here, upstairs in Bea Dollar's little office, baby Sean is googling and his teen-age mom is asking if she can get married.<< John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Susan Gilbert [mailto:susandgilbert at MSN.COM] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:23 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Being Googled When did being "Googled" become part of our lexicon? New Yorker cartoon features two men at a bar and one shudders and exclaims : "Whew! I feel like I have just been "Googled." Susan Dean Gilbert susandgilbert at msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 01:38:22 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:38:22 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Google asserts that its name is a play on the word > googol. That may be true in part, but I believe it's also > based on the existing verb "google" (not in OED), which I > take to be a variation on the verb "goggle" (to stare with > wide and bulging eyes). The earliest I've seen is in the Los > Angeles Times, June 19, 1986: >>Here, upstairs in Bea > Dollar's little office, baby Sean is googling and his > teen-age mom is asking if she can get married.<< The verb "google" meaning to stare may date to the 80s, but presumably Messrs. Page and Brin know why they chose the name for their company and search engine. If they say it's from the mathematical term, who are we to argue? And the use to mean conduct a search on the web is most definitely from the name of the search engine, not from a fairly obscure slang verb. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 01:51:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:51:33 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) Message-ID: I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See ADS-L archives.) 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: _AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ _Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the professional wrestlers a warm argument. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 5 01:09:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:09:06 -0500 Subject: Windy City (1883) In-Reply-To: <08770F32.5E37CE34.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:45 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The New York Sun Charles A. Dana 1893 Columbian Exposition myth >should be long dead now, but no, you gotta check this thing every >day... > > >11/03/2002 >The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel > >Winter winds don't chill fest fever >By SUSAN BLINKHORN Special to the Journal Sentinel > > >Sunday, November 3, 2002 >Windy City, indeed. When old man winter appears in Chicago, the >gusts that blow off Lake Michigan and through the city's skyscraper >canyons are enough to knock the Marshall Field's shopping bag right >out of your hand. > >Windy as it may be, however, Chicago's infamous moniker has nothing >to do with the weather (Milwaukee, on average, has higher wind >speeds) and everything to do with the city's passion for hosting >great parties. Legend has it that back in 1893, the city's lobbying >efforts to host the World's Fair were so verbose and long- winded >that the New York City press dubbed Chicago the "Windy City." >(...) Well, even though their first and second parts of their version of "Windy City" are both false, they do say "legend has it" about the latter. larry From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 03:09:41 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:09:41 EST Subject: dialectology in grad schools? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:55:40 PM, nerd_core at EXCITE.COM writes: << A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua >> Anymore, is there is a difference between the study of dialectology and the study of sociolinguistics. Even the "old line" dialect geographers (e.g., Raven McDavid, Harold Allen) recognized that there were social dimensions to linguistic variation (hence the Type IA, IB, II, III etc. speakers). All that has happened in the last 30 years can really be looked upon as an extension of their original insights. If the question is, Do people today study dialect apart from society, I think the answer is pretty much "no"! From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 5 03:59:51 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:59:51 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Lesa Dill asks, >> Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it >> "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? In answer to your first question: Not to my knowledge. I have found, as have most of my friends and colleagues (who are not concentrated in any particular geographical area), that Google is simply superior to the others. Personally, I've reaffirmed that each time I've done a comparative test (which I do whenever I see another search engine recommended). In answer to your second question: See the answer to the first question. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 04:37:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:37:41 -0500 Subject: Iced Tea & Iced Coffee (Sat. Eve. Post, 1857) Message-ID: "Legend has it" that iced tea was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair. These two long, excellent notes were found on the American Periodical Series online. I apologize in advance for the typing mistakes. 14 February 1857, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 2: _TEA AS A SUMMER DRINK._ Frederick Sala, writing from Russia to Dickens's Household Words, mentions that on a table near him stands "a largish tumbler filled with a steaming liquid of a golden color in which floats a thin slice of lemon. It is TEA: the most delicious, the most soothing, the most thirst-allaying drink you can have in summertime, and in Russia." Tea, flavored with the slice of lemon, we have never tried; neither are we prepared to recommend as a summer beverage tea steaming hot, as Sala does. But tea made strong, (as _we_ like it--or as strong as you like it,) well-sweetened, with good milk or better cream in it in sufficient quantity to give it a dark yellow color, and the whole mixture cooled in an ice-chest to the temperature of ice-water, is "the most delicious, the most soothing, the most thirst allaying drink" we have ever treated ourselves or friends to. We know of nothing to compare with it for deliciousness or refreshment. It cheers, but not inebriates. Its stimulus is gentle; make a note of this now, and when the summer fervor visits you, and you feel, with Sydney Smith, that for the sake of coolness you could get out of your flesh and sit in your bones, try our specific of ice-cold tea. Juleps, cobblers and such things, sink to utter insignificance beside it. They are only temporarily refreshing, and fire the blood after the five minutes following their imbibition. Soda is folly; it inflates one painfully with carbonic gas, and adds to the discomfort heat produces. Ice-water is unsatisfying; you drink till you feel water-logged, and derive no benefit. Ice-cream is the only preparation fit to be mentioned with out cold tea. Some of our restaurant and saloon keepers would do well to keep this mixture among their summer refreshments. We feel sure that it would pay them pecuniarily to do so. The beverage only needs to be known to be popular. 29 August 1857, SATURDAY EVENING POST, pg. 2: TEA AS A SUMMER DRINK.--A little editorial of ours with the above caption has been going the rounds of the city and country press without credit. Of course, the latter circumstance is, as Toots would say, of no consequence, but one of the country papers prints the article with the concluding remark, "So says Dickens," which induces us to say that Dickens never said anything ofthe kind, but that ours is the voice that sounded the praise of iced tea. And, by the way, let us remark that iced coffee, with sugar and cream, is a sumemr beverage that goes to the exhausted spot most effectually. We wonder that some of our saloon keepers don't advertise those delightful drinks "which cheer but not inebriate," among their sodas and water ices and creams, all of which are inferior to them both in refreshment and sustaining power. But improvement, as Burke said of confidence, is a plant of slow growth, and we suppose it will be a century before the public finds out what luxuries iced tea and coffee are in the summer solstice. (A century? A prophetic little food item from the SATURDAY EVENING POST--ed.) From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Nov 5 04:46:26 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 21:46:26 -0700 Subject: "raspberry" < raspberry tart ? : Cockney rhyming slang? Message-ID: A colleague of mine sent this inquiry, followed by a response from another colleague. Does anyone have any corroborating or disconfirming evidence? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I recently came across an etymology, perhaps in a column by William Safire, that I hope you can corroborate or explode. It concerns the word "raspberry," as in "Some members of the audience were rude enough to give the speaker the raspberry." A dictionary definition of the word used in this sense: "a derisive or contemptuous sound made by vibrating the extended tongue and the lips while exhaling." I think we all know what it sounds like. The claimed etymology: that it comes from Cockney rhyming slang and that its full form is "raspberry tart." The rhyme, I assume, is with "fart." E.g., "Someone made a Godawful smelly raspberry tart." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The response from another colleague was as follows: >The etymology is not at all clear. The OED on-line, >def. 4., cautiously states "[App. an ellipt. use of raspberry tart >(b) below.]," without further explanation, but the editors seem not entirely >confident in the derivation. They equate it with "Bronx cheer." There seem >to be in the examples in 4a. and 4b. two strikingly different meanings. One, >documented as early as 1890), is the sound that could have been the source >of the proposed Cockney slang term (4a.). The other a more generalized >sense, which appears first in a Wodehouse novel in 1920, indicates rebuke or >disapproval (4b.). In some of the quotations in 4b. any suggestion of the >sense in 4a. would violate decorum. (I can't imagine Jeeves giving a Bronx >cheer in any circumstances.) Without direct testimony as to the origin of >the sense, it is hard to say what the truth is. The attribution to rhyming >slang could be a popular etymology, plausible but undocumented, created to >fill a vacuum. > >The reportedly widespread use in Glasgow in 1912 makes me wonder whether the >source isn't other than Cockney slang, which is easy to invoke when no other >explanation is apparent. But why "_raspberry_ tart"? Why not apple tart or >gooseberry tart or bilberry tart or strawberry tart or the like? The rhyme >doesn't explain the raspberry part, does it? The only evidence the OED gives >is late: "1959 I. & P. OPIE Lore & Lang. Schoolch. i. 9 Breaking wind was, >at one time, by the process of rhyming slang, known as a 'raspberry tart'." >Maybe the Opies give more proof in the work cited, but the evidence for >their statement is not in the OED. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The originator of the query posted another finding that the term also occurred in an 1892 poem, where the meaning was clearly "heart", which would also fit with rhyming slang. "Then I sallied forth with careless air, and contented raspberry tart." Can anyone improve on this information? Rudy From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Nov 5 06:11:01 2002 From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:11:01 -0700 Subject: More on dialect and song Message-ID: Thanks to all who replied to my question about rhotacism in song. If only my opera singer mother had lived a little longer I would have had that information long ago. Unfortunately, what I inherited was a phobia towards singing. The r-stuff makes good sense, but I wonder a bit about the monopthongization, especially of /ai/. I can't hear in my own head the choir in my old church singing, "A mahhty fawtress is ah God." (Excuse the crude representation.) The "flavor" of the popular song phonology I hear is southern US, where, of course, the two phonetic phenomena stereotypically (and otherwise) occur. I have interpreted it as a "ruralization" of pop song. Heard an old, old recording of Bing Crosby on "Fresh Air" yesterday and did not hear it there. I guess I am just wondering of there is some generalized shift in the sociolinguistics of pop song in addition to the fact that /Vr/ is hard to sing. Karl Krahnke English Department Colorado State University From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 5 06:32:54 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:32:54 -0500 Subject: "raspberry" < raspberry tart ? : Cockney rhyming slang? Message-ID: Rudy, it's included in Mathews' *Dictionary of Americanisms* (1951) as razz or razzberry, a sound indicative of disapproval or derision. (NOT listed under "raspberry.") M-W II (1934) has it as both raspberry (orig. E. slang) and razz (US). *The City In Slang* (Allen, 1993) says that raspberry's a synonym for Bronx cheer, "classically made by expulsing air through flaccid lips to produce a very vulgar fluttering sound." No tarts with any of the above. --DS From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 06:53:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 01:53:23 -0500 Subject: Razzberry (1920) Message-ID: Nobody remembers that I recently searched for both "Razzberry" and "Bronx Cheer" in NEW YORK TIMES full text? A month or two ago, and EVERYBODY forgets? I'd posted "razzberry" from 1921, but here's a year earlier from the American Periodical Series online database. April 1920, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg._011 (??): _Omnipotent Tradition_ College Tale With a Moral (...) "But Dick," hinted the man holding Bob's arms, "the kid is a game and a clean fighter. Let's not be too hard on him." "Razzberry," roared the husky sophomore with the numeral sweater, who still retained a tenacious grip upon Nick's coat collar, "we've got to show these youths that rules are rules." From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 08:09:29 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 00:09:29 -0800 Subject: Razzberry (1920) In-Reply-To: <0377EBC1.4908A44E.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Nobody remembers that I recently searched for both > "Razzberry" and "Bronx Cheer" in NEW YORK TIMES full text? A > month or two ago, and EVERYBODY forgets? > I'd posted "razzberry" from 1921, but here's a year > earlier from the American Periodical Series online database. > > > April 1920, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg._011 (??): > > _Omnipotent Tradition_ > College Tale With a Moral > (...) > "But Dick," hinted the man holding Bob's arms, "the kid is > a game and a clean fighter. Let's not be too hard on him." > "Razzberry," roared the husky sophomore with the numeral > sweater, who still retained a tenacious grip upon Nick's coat > collar, "we've got to show these youths that rules are rules." Mathews has "razzberry" from 1918, and the sense is definitely the Bronx Cheer sound rather than an euphemistic expletive: "The razzberry was deafening, and he had an omelet hung on his ear." _Liberty_, 11 Aug 1918 (1928). Still not as old as the 1890 "raspberry" in the OED though. From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Nov 5 08:24:04 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:24:04 +0100 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. Isn't an allusion to the verb "ogle" implied? Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Tue Nov 5 10:07:55 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:07:55 -0000 Subject: Razz/Raspberry Message-ID: >Still not as old as the 1890 "raspberry" in the OED though. The OED is in fact around a decade late in its 'raspberry' cite; had they chosen to 'borrow' from Farmer and Henley's 'Slang & Its Analogues', rather than Barrere and Leland's 'Slang, Jargon & Cant' (where cites are irritatingly undated) they could have noted the original line dates to 'c.1880'. UK use is definitely rooted in rhyming slang; whether it then crossed the Atlantic or whether razz(berry) developed independently/coincidentally I cannot say. Nor do I know whether the note in the original cite (published in the horse-racing magazine The Sporting Times - better known as 'The Pink 'Un' and not wholly dissimilar to the National Police Gazette), which explains that when not used derisively the sound was 'employed for the purpose of testing horseflesh', has any special relevance. Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Nov 5 12:29:14 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 07:29:14 -0500 Subject: dialectology in grad schools? In-Reply-To: <1a0.b4507b4.2af89075@aol.com> Message-ID: That said, however, some sociolinguistics programs have emphasized region more than others. Georgia, NCState, Penn, MSU, and Toronto are somewhat more invested in region (although by no means exclusively) than, say, Stanford. This also overlooks programs where there are well-known practitioners who can very ably train people (e.g., Bill Kretzschmar at Georgia) although the institution or program itself may not focus on region. In general, however, I agree with Ron that "region" (dialect in the older sense) is now best seen as one of the variables in the search for a socially and linguistically grounded account of language structure, variation, and change. dInIs In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:55:40 PM, nerd_core at EXCITE.COM writes: << A question about graduate school programs: I know that dialect fanatics can apply to programs in either sociolinguistics or anthropological linguistics. Are there grad programs that specifically focus on dialectology, however? -Joshua >> Anymore, is there is a difference between the study of dialectology and the study of sociolinguistics. Even the "old line" dialect geographers (e.g., Raven McDavid, Harold Allen) recognized that there were social dimensions to linguistic variation (hence the Type IA, IB, II, III etc. speakers). All that has happened in the last 30 years can really be looked upon as an extension of their original insights. If the question is, Do people today study dialect apart from society, I think the answer is pretty much "no"! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 5 13:57:01 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:57:01 -0500 Subject: gin up Message-ID: I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Nov 5 14:26:32 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:26:32 -0500 Subject: cheese out Message-ID: I am familiar with/have been known to used "cheese out" as synonymous with "flake out" or "flake". As in: X couldn't make it. I am not sure if he's sick or if he's cheesing out [or flaking out, or flaking] on us. Maybe it was just a case of in-group slang among my rather odd bunch of friends in State College PA in the late 80s/early 90s. We all thought that cheese was funny stuff back then.... From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 5 14:46:14 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: gin up In-Reply-To: <84010.3245475421@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a >WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this >meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is >this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? Something like this was discussed here in March 2001 (topic "gen up"). I expressed myself at excessive length on 6 March 2001. I think it's an attempt to sound folksy or "hip". My best guess is that he's basically/etymologically referring to stimulating a horse by putting ginger in its rectum. There is confusion perhaps with another verb "gin" which is probably from "engineer" or so. The distinction in principle would be made by experimentally replacing "gin up" with (1) "stimulate" or "enliven" (implying "gin[ger] up") and with (2) "prepare" or "marshal" (implying something like "[en]gin[eer]" or perhaps "gen[erate]"). At least that's my naive impression. -- Doug Wilson From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Tue Nov 5 15:05:21 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:05:21 -0500 Subject: google verb. Message-ID: Actually, around the same time I started hearing google used as a verb, I heard e-bay used the same way. As in, "I'm going to get my geek on and e-bay some stuff." -Joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 16:07:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:07:15 EST Subject: Cotton Candy (1905) Message-ID: COTTON CANDY OED & M-W have 1926. I'd posted only a touch earlier. From the American Periodical Series online. 21 January 1905, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 47: Inquiry No. 6401. For manufacture of the electric candy machine known as :Fairy Floss" or "Cotton Candy." 14 October 1905, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 310: Ad for "Cotton Candy Machine Co." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- APS & ELECTRONIC DATABASE MISC. Columbia Univerisyt has the WALL STREET JOURNAL on its ProQuest subscription, but not the WASHINGTON POST. I'd like to see the WP. Surely, there's an early "martini" there? The American Periodical Series online looks like it's far from complete. Some of the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE items are mis-dated (1804?). PUCK is not there at all. More will probably be added in a few months. PUCK, for example, probably will have "raspberry/razzberry." THE REAL McCOY--From the boxer Kid McCoy? I was surprised when the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE--a leading boxing magazine--didn't have anything. The first cite here? How about December 1933, in H. T. Webster's famous FORUM & CENTURY article on "Slanguage." I'M FROM MISSOURI, SHOW ME--Nothing earlier than what I'd found. 21 April 1900, A JOURNAL OF OUTDOOR LIFE, TRAVEL, NATURE STUDY, SHOOTING, FISHING, YACHTING, pg. 309: There is an old saying about the man from Missouri, who said: "It may be so, but you've got to show me." TUNA--Lots of wonderful citations from nature/fishing publications, but all cites are later than 1881. CHILI CON CARNE--Nothing before 1857 (the book is cited several times). I typed in just "carne" and also "chile." ENCHILADA--Nothing early here. TACO--Nothing at all. Hey, OUT WEST magazine! "Taco," fer cryin' out loud! THe full text LOS ANGELES TIMES is my next best hope. JAMBALAYA--The AMERICAN AGRICULTURALIST, May 1849, pg. 161, shows up in citation form. THis word is spelled in different ways, so I also searched for good old "gumbo." UNCLE SAM--First citation here is 1817. GOTHAM--Lots of interesting publications here for Washington Irving to steal the idea from, and he "borrowed" everything. Full text of much of the pre-1830 material is not available yet, although citations are given. For example, a search of "sell like hotcakes" turned up the KNICKERBOCKER MAGAZINE. Search capability isn't there yet (you have to go to the microfilm reels with your cite), but I know that's our first hit for "hotcakes." THE BIG APPLE--FWIW. June 1871, SCRIBNER'S MONTHLY, pg. 307: The big apple, the topmost cake, always belonged, I thought, to my neighbor--who ever manifested a similar conviction. O.T. Not that it matters, but gotta go vote!...I hope David Shulman likes these APS "Steve Brodie" cites. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Nov 5 16:46:59 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:46:59 -0500 Subject: gin up In-Reply-To: <84010.3245475421@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: David Bergdahl writes: >I've heard "gin up" several times this election cycle, the last time from a >WSJ reporter on CNBC. DARE has a 1970 cite "I'll see if I can gin up this >meeting" with the same sense of "To stir up, get (something) going"-- is >this an attempt to sound folksy, a genuine revival or what? ~~~~~~ This expression occurred several times in NPR's morning news today, regarding W's last-minute campaigning. I hear it as "gen up" and translate it as "generate increase" in supposedly already existing support. A. Murie From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Nov 5 18:29:44 2002 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:29:44 -0500 Subject: britpop-ameripop and vice versa Message-ID: Hi Folks: Don't forget that Sinatra's singing voice was in a different accent than his speaking voice; most argue he "standardized" (in some cases probably hyper-corrected) his New Jersey-speak for singing. And Matt Monro sounded like Sinatra when he sang, but spoke in an impenetrable cockney. (Just to prove that this phenomenon didn't start with the Brits imitating Muddy Waters)! Cheers! Peter Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com Visit us online at http://www.Merriam-Webster.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 5 19:56:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:56:30 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? # #I don't know. How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? "Yahoo" already exists in everyday English. "Dog pile" is meaningful, although I'm pretty sure the connotation that I have for it is not the one the creators intended! ("Watch your step, there's a dog pile!") "Yahoo! John Smith", especially with that dratted exclamation mark, reads as = 'hurray for J.S.'. "Google", OTOH, is novel to most speakers. Yes, I know about Barney Google, and I know about the song, but I'd bet a cookie (the edible kind) that to the great majority of English-speakers who know the word, the first meaning that comes to mind is the search engine. -- Mark A. Mandel From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 20:01:04 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:01:04 -0500 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I don't think we're obligated to accept the creators' word for a term's origin if we have reason to believe that their account is inaccurate or incomplete. Page and Brin may have thought that acknowledging "google" as a source for their name would imply derivation from the Barney Google comic strip and song. I do agree that most current uses of "Googling" refer to the search engine, not the pre-existing verb (whose status as slang seems doubtful to me). I thought the older word was worth recording, though. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Dave Wilton [mailto:dave at WILTON.NET] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Being Googled The verb "google" meaning to stare may date to the 80s, but presumably Messrs. Page and Brin know why they chose the name for their company and search engine. If they say it's from the mathematical term, who are we to argue? And the use to mean conduct a search on the web is most definitely from the name of the search engine, not from a fairly obscure slang verb. From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 5 21:14:49 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:14:49 -0800 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't think we're obligated to accept the creators' > word for a term's origin if we have reason to believe that > their account is inaccurate or incomplete. Page and Brin may > have thought that acknowledging "google" as a source for > their name would imply derivation from the Barney Google > comic strip and song. I agree that we shouldn't accept all such tales uncritically, but in this case I don't see any compelling reason to doubt Page and Brin (the founders of Google, Inc.). The use of "google" as a slang verb is pretty obscure--it's not in any slang dictionary that I'm aware of. If this were a more common slang term, you might be on to something. But given the term's rarity, I would go along with their contention that it is an independent coinage based on the mathematical term. > I do agree that most current uses of "Googling" refer > to the search engine, not the pre-existing verb (whose status > as slang seems doubtful to me). I thought the older word was > worth recording, though. Yes, it's definitely worth knowing about. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 5 22:07:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:07:10 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: OED and M-W have 1885 for "Dutch Treat." This is 1885, but indicates 1861. From American Periodical Series online--also on Making of America? August 1885, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE, "A Virginia girl in the first year of the war," pg. 606: Already the pinch of war was felt in the commissariat; and we had recourse occassionally to a contribution supper, or "Dutch treat," when the guests brough branded peaches, boxes of sardines, French prunes, and bags of biscuit, while the hosts contributed only a roast turkey or a ham, with knives and forks. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 5 22:38:01 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:38:01 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: from http://www.wfyes.co.uk/prod04.htm (the Youth Enquiry Service): 'Gen up on' is an information tape which covers five topics identified by a group of young people. The topics covered are: drugs, alcohol, the police, homelessness and money. The young people involved interviewed various experts such as the Chief Constable for Fife and the manager of a local housing project. They put the experts in the 'hot seat' to ascertain the information they required. On completion of the interviews, the young people gathered all the information and headed for the studios to edit and produce the information tape. The final product is a young people friendly, easy to listen to audio tape full of relevant information for young people and is available from the YES. Gen up on... costs just ?4 plus ?3 _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 5 23:07:46 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:07:46 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: from the website of Telephone Bar & Grill, 149 Second St, NY: http//www.telebar.com/britspeak.html "Gen means information. If you have the gen then you know what is going on. Also, to 'gen up' is to research a subject or to get some information about something." [ENTRIES AND DEFINITIONS BY MIKE ETHERINGTON FROM HIS SMASHING BOOK, THE VERY BEST OF BRITISH: THE AMERICAN'S GUIDE TO SPEAKING BRITISH] However, The Las Vegas Review Journal [online edition] for July 30, 2002 has this in an editorial: "Just months removed from placing tariffs on steel imports to protect a failing domestic industry and gin up a few votes in the Rust Belt, President Bush's commitment to free trade merits scrutiny." >From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen up something. The sense of "research" may come naturally out of this usage; the American usage may just be a ten/tin homophony at play. Or it may be independently derived from the "gin" of cotton gin--the original "engine." An MSNBC article by Brock N. Meeks for 7/30/01 has "You don't have to be a science fiction or mystery writer to gin up some nightmare scenarios about how these new intrusions into our lives can be abused by law enforcement officials." Google searches reveal a number of news and entertainment sources using the "gin up" spelling. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 5 23:26:45 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:26:45 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: "Gin up," meaning to make or to put together, was a common informal expression in southcentral Kentucky. The association with politics seems to go back a few years: >> "We really want to gin up enough pressure so that the president will take the lead," said a House leadership aide.<< Wall St. Journal, Jan. 2, 1984. I note that the OED has "to gin her up," meaning to work things up, to make things 'hum', to work hard, from 1887. John Baker From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 6 00:55:15 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:55:15 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) In-Reply-To: <660D824E.37F86C57.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:51 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I >discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See >ADS-L archives.) > > 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: > >_AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ >_Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ > Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a >very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a >mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs >of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., >one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an >active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the >professional wrestlers a warm argument. Here's another version or two, courtesy of http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/97/11/index4a.html (the site has a lovely picture of the drink, which does indeed like a Jacqueminot rose--or so I imagine). I was wondering if there was any relation to Rose's Lime Juice, but as far as I can tell there isn't. Larry ======================== This cocktail gives us a twinge at the back of the tongue before smoothly sliding down the gullet, swathed in sweetness. It's the mix of pain and delight in the Jack Rose that we just can't say no to. Mixed with 1 1/2 ounces applejack and an ounce lime juice (or 1/2 an ounce lemon juice), followed by half an ounce grenadine, the Jack Rose has the tang of Jersey Lightning and the sappy charm of grenadine. The lime is the bridge from one to the other. But it's not the Jack Rose's deep-laid taste, only hinting at apple, that attracts imbibers. Instead, it's the drink's hue - not quite red, not quite pink - that draws us to the cocktail. We had just assumed the Jack Rose was named for its color. After all, Albert S. Crockett, author of the 1934 Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar, wrote that the Jack Rose, or Jacque Rose, was "the exact shade of a Jacqueminot rose, when properly concocted." The rose, in turn, is named after French general Jean-Fran?ois Jacqueminot, who endured from 1787 until 1865. Some suggest the drink was named after the general, but we're certain that can't be: The French would never allow a drink mixed with the Yankee cousin of their fine apple brandy, Calvados, to be tied to their language. Our efforts to find a more believable christening of the Jack Rose took us to the Colts Neck Inn of Colts Neck, New Jersey: "The great, great grandpa of the Laird family, the restaurant's first owner and the only distiller left making applejack, invented it," says Nelson Fastige, a Colts Neck bartender for the last 14 years. "His name was Jack, and the drink was a reddish pink color, like the rose." A modest enough tale that almost inspired us to stop our search. But not having put in a good day's work, we decided to call the Laird family in Scobeyville, New Jersey. "The Jack Rose cocktail was not invented at the Colts Neck Inn as some believe. Nor was it created by a Laird family ancestor," Lisa Laird-Dunn, the Laird & Company's VP and a member of the family's ninth generation, told us. "One of the more colorful myths is in fact truth, not fiction.... During the late 1800s, there was a gentleman by the name of Jack Rose, from New York City. He was regarded as somewhat of a shady character who made his living in and around City Hall and the New York courts. Mr. Rose's favorite beverage was applejack, and he consumed it mixed with lemon juice and grenadine. He became known for this cocktail, thus it was dubbed the Jack Rose." We certainly like the idea of a gangster rogue, instead of a presumably well-behaved and well-aged gentleman, sipping the Jack Rose. So we called it a day and tried to find an establishment that would serve us a round of Jack Roses. But alas, no luck. If they weren't trying to swap Calvados for applejack, then they were set on serving the cocktail with apple brandy - all while charging us an extra 50 cents per drink. We'll actually take these substitutes in a pinch, but attest the Jack Rose is far from the same without that applejack burn. Besides, if we're going to sip apple brandy, we'd rather have it straight. Occasionally, to coax the mixer into meeting our demands, we'll quote from Ms. Laird-Dunn: "The drink became very popular in the early 1900s and remained so after the repeal of Prohibition. There wasn't a restaurant in New York City that did not serve the Jack Rose." To which most bartenders reply that we ought to consider a move. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 01:12:56 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:12:56 EST Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: In a message dated 11/05/2002 6:08:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, einstein at FROGNET.NET writes: > From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the > next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen > up something. Dubious. If you want to claim an origin in computerspeak, then try the word "sysgen", a shorting of "system generation" which means to set up all the software needed to create the operating system on a computer. The first operating systems appeared in the 1950's, before the advent of the "second generation" computers, so it is a reasonable conjecture that the word "sysgen" antedates the phrase "nth generation computer" or "next generation computer/software". I don't have a date for "sysggen"---it's not in OED---but I recall hearing it from 1966 when I first starting working as a programmer. I have a suspicion that "sysgen" was invented by IBM which in the 1960's gloried in marching to their own drummer on computer terminology. James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 01:18:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:18:22 -0500 Subject: Jambalaya (1849) Message-ID: This smashes the 1870s citation in DARE on this important food term, which I will have to solve without help of the online NEW ORLEANS PICAYUNE. The American Periodical Series online provided the cite, but I had to go to the reels to check it. Imagine when LIFE and PUCK get added! May 1849, THE AMERICAN AGRICULTURALIST (APS II, reel 365), pg. 161, col. 1: _Louisiana Muffin Bread._--Take two pints of flour and one and a half of sifted corn meal, two spoonfuls of butter, one spoonful of yeast, and two eggs, and mix and bake for breakfast. It is good. _Hopping Johnny_ (jambalaya).--Take a dressed chicken, or full-grown fowl, if not old, and cut all the flesh into small pieces, with a sharp knife. Put this into an iron pot, with a large spoonful of butter and one onion chopped fine; sttep and stir it till it is brown; then add water enough to cover it, and put in some parsley, spices, and red pepper pods, chopped fine, and let it boil till you think it is barely done, taking care to stir it often, so as not to burn it; then stir in as much rice, when cooked, as will absorb all the water; stir and boil it a minute or so, andthen let it stand and simmer until the rice is cooked, and you will have a most delicious dish of palatable, digestible food. _Something for the Children._--Make a dish of molasses candy, and, while it is hot, pour it out upon a deep plate, and stir in the meats of pecans, hickory nuts, hazle nuts, or peanuts, just as thick as you can stir them in, and then let it cool. Be careful and not eat too much of it, for it is very rich. It is a very nice dish for evening parties of the dear little girls and boys; and I have known some "big children" to like it pretty well. SOLON ROBINSON. _Alabama, March 25th_, 1849. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 03:24:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:24:03 -0500 Subject: Brother Jonathan (1791) Message-ID: "Brother Jonathan" is/was a symbol of our country, much like "Uncle Sam." It's frequently also just "Jonathan," but that's difficult to trace. There's also a food named after B.J. OED's first citation is 1816. It's often mentioned that George Washington said this of "Brother Jonathan" Trumbull, of Connecticut, but no one's found anything in George Washington's well-scrutinized papers. Again, care of the American Periodical Series online. February 1791, THE AMERICAN MUSEUM, OR UNIVERSAL MAGAZINE (APS I, Reel 5), pg. 116: THE ANECDOTIST.--No III. (...) THE first American vessel that anchored in the river Thames, after the peace, attracted great numbers to see the stripes. A British soldier hailed in a contemptuous tone, "From whence came you, brother Jonathan?" The boatswain retorted, "straight from Bunker's hill, d--n you." From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Nov 6 07:08:11 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:08:11 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. One such, apparently dropped by the 20th century (I don't find it in later dictionaries), was "Dutch gold," defined as not gold, of course, but as "copper, brass, and bronze leaf, used largely in Holland to ornament toys." (from M-W 1864) --DS From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 07:37:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:37:58 EST Subject: Pizza 2002 (Wed. NY TIMES) Message-ID: From today's (Wednesday's) NEW YRK TIMES: Pizza 2002: The State of the Slice By ED LEVINE HAT'S the best way to set New Yorkers to bickering? Ask where to find the best slice of pizza in the city. No subject starts a battle faster?not bagels or hot dogs or chopped liver, not even the primacy of the Rangers or the fastest route to J.F.K. Pizza, introduced to New York in 1905 by Gennaro Lombardi, who saw it as a way to use up the day-old bread in his Spring Street grocery store, has long been the affordable, satisfying food of choice for peripatetic New Yorkers of every age, sex, race and class. 1905? As I posted here when NEW YORK TIMES full text became available, there is a "pizza" citation in the NEW YORK TIMES before 1905. No one believes me? How could the NEW YORK TIMES not believe the NEW YORK TIMES? Their 1903 newspaper was lying? Anyway, here are some Italian food citations I have sitting around the house here. 9 June 1827, THE CORRESPONDENT (American Periodical Series II, reel 384), pg. 319: _Festivals at Naples._(...) Here a sun of sugar-candy is arrested in the midst of his course to obey the voice of a Joshua in chocolate, who is trampling under foot an army of _biscottini_ (little figues in biscuit.) (...) He is seen seated on his throne of _pasta-reale_, preparing to pronounce his celebrated sentence in presence of his people, and of the guards, by whom he is surrounded. But who, think you, are these guards? Squadrons of sugar pulcinelli well armed with pikes of maccaroni! (...) Their garments are composed of _mortadelle_ and _salciociotti_, (particular kinds of sausages), and the chalice intrusted to their hands is a Dutch cheese of superior quality. ("Pasta," but no "pizza"--ed.) May 1901, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE (APS), "Breakfast in Naples," pg. 15: Groups of delicate, anemic factory-girls surround the sellers of _ricotta_, a sort of milk-curd, temptingly displayed on bits of green vine or fig-leaf. (...) ...innumerable _friggitrici_, or frying-women, preside over huge, deep skillets of boiling lard. (...) ..._polpette_, or meat-rolls, such as we would call fried hash-meat turnovers;... (...) Another indescribable mess is the famous _sanguinaccio_, or pig's blood, mixed with chocolate and whipped to a cream. This is, however, an aristocratic dish, and appears on the street only at Christmas-tide. (...) The famous _pizzerie_ of Naples, some of which boast a hundred years of existence, are devoted exclusively to the manufacture and sale of a sort of rustic pie, or short-cake made out of risen dough, sharply beaten till quite thin, and seasoned on top with a great deal of lard, tomatoes, and grated cheese, or, on fast-days, with olive-oil, fresh anchovies, and a touch of garlic. The brisk tapping and slapping of the _pizze_ can be heard a block away, and is as characteristic as the sonorous call of the sellers: "Have some breakfast! Have some breakfast!" You can buy a slice in the street from one of the runners, or, if you prefer, can enter the shop, stand by while your _pizza_ is being vigorously thumped and slapped, can see it cooked in the glowing open oven under the fierce heat of a lateral fire of wood shavings, whisked out on an iron shovel in three minutes' time, and served to you in popular style on a tin plate, all for three cents. Queen Margherita, when she visited Naples, sledom failed to patronize the pizzerie, though not exactly at the stalls, nor yet before the street oven. One of the "ancient" makers was invited to the royal palace at Capodimonte, where she usually resided, and there, in one of the rustic lodges of the domain, he set up his marble slab, hard by the stone oven, and merrily beat his pizze before the interested eyes of the royal dame and her court. (...) ..._cannolicchi_, a long. slim bivalve, very sweet and very much alive, much esteemed by those who have the courage to eat them;... January 1906, CENTURY ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE (APS), "The Olive-Vendor," pg. 432: (...) Then came Lucia Pacini, daughter of Paolo Pacini, who kept the _pizze cavui_ shop in Mott Street. (...) "I have come for some cheese," murmured Lucia, with downcast eyes, as she tendered Pius a small silver piece. "And let it be as much for the money as you can make it, for summer is not a good time for _pizze_ cakes and business is poor with us." (...) Already a sign, "To Let," adorned the dront door of the _pizzi cavui_ shop. (...) (So "slices" were sold in Naples, even back then...See also "The Poor in Naples," SCRIBNER'S MAGAZINE, January 1893, pg. 58, on the MOA-Cornell database for another brief "pizza" citation...Only about a thousand trillion more years before the NY TIMES food section mentions my work. My friend Gersh Kuntzman of the NY POST got mentioned last week--before me, of course--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 07:55:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 02:55:46 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885); Kielbasa & Serdelki (1932) Message-ID: DUTCH TREAT (continued) I should add that that "Dutch Treat" citation is also on the MOA-Cornell database. It appears that I haven't posted this NEW YORK TIMES citation. It's a little earlier, although the later citation talks about an earlier period, at the start of the Civil War. 18 March 1877, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 6: The expense of any kind of feast, it is supposed, must be borne by some on person. It is true that there are ways by means of which this sentiment may be got around. But a certain sordid character still hangs to that transaction, which has been dubbed a "Dutch treat." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KIELBASA & SERDELKI Moving from Dutch to Polish. May 1932, NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, "A Polish-American Retrospect," pg. 450: But there were, besides rabbit, chicken, duck, beef, lamb, sausages (_kielbasa_, _serdelki_)... (...) ...and most of all, sausages--salami; sweet, finely seasoned _kielbasa_, and _serdelki_, beside which, for all-round gastric and olfactory merit, few sausages are fit to hang. (Merriam-Webster's date for "kielbasa" is later in the 1930s and OED places it in the 1950s!--ed.) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Nov 6 08:07:23 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:07:23 -0800 Subject: A software and stick note Message-ID: I always thought countable use of software was limited to non-native English speakers, but yesterday a friend used it twice in an e-mail and then verbally in a follow-up phone call. He was also telling me about stick notes the other day. Sure enough, he meant Post-Its, or stickies as I would normally call them. Even sticky notes, but stick notes... He lives in DC, and has lived in San Francisco and Texas in the past. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Nov 6 08:47:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 01:47:20 -0700 Subject: Geolinguistics Message-ID: I guess I've been too insular, or just found the term unpleasant and so avoided it, but some of our local linguists have been touting "geolinguistics" as an exciting cover-term to elicit administration support for language and linguistics in the university, including language contact, language variation, language change, ethnic/minority language situations, bilingualism, bilingual education, and a few other things. Does anyone else have strongly positive or negative reactions to the term, or to the range of topics included? Should it be a label to sell the administration on? Rudy From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Nov 6 09:00:34 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:00:34 -0000 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" Message-ID: 'Gen' as meaning information is not computerspeak but an RAF coinage - Partridge suggests as early as 1929 - which was widely popularized during WW2. It is, supposedly, an abbreviation of 'general information of all ranks.' He also has 'genned up': = well supplied with infomation, listed in the Dict. Forces Slang 1939-45 (1948), although 'gen up, is defined only as 'to swot for a test or examination; to read up a subject'. In addition he lists 'gen king' or 'gen wallah': 'one who can be tapped for trustworthy information', and 'gen man': (1) an Orderly Room, Signals or Operations Room clerk; (2) an Intelligence Officer. A 'gen box' was a synonym for a 'black box', either an instrument that permits bomb aimers to see through clouds or darkness. After the war it moved into civilian use, thus 1945 Kingsley Amis letter 15 Dec (in Leader _Letters of KA_, 2000) 23: I will then slip the gen across to you ole boy Jonathon Green From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Wed Nov 6 11:43:45 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:43:45 -0500 Subject: Fwd: SECOL: Job offer at Coastal Carolina (sociolinguistics) Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from "Thiede, Ralf" ----- Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:21:01 -0500 From: "Thiede, Ralf" Reply-To: "Thiede, Ralf" Subject: SECOL: Job offer at Coastal Carolina (sociolinguistics) To: "'t.irons at morehead-st.edu'" Dear Terry, Steve Nagle sent me this job announcement for a tenure-track sociolinguist at Coastal Carolina (NC). Please bring this to the attention to any doctoral student on the job market: The Department of English and Journalism at Coastal Carolina University invites applications for a tenure-track position in sociolinguistics. Applicants must have, by June 2003, an earned Ph.D. in linguistics with emphasis on sociolinguistics. A track record of excellent teaching , a demonstrated potential for conducting research in speech communities in CCU's region, and an interest in grant writing to facilitate such research are expected. The Department currently offers a B.A. in English with four undergraduate linguistics courses taught in varying frequency and takes part in the University's MAT program, in which graduate linguistics courses are occasionally offered. The successful candidate can expect a 3/4 teaching load in linguistics, Freshman Composition, and Business Communications, which may include off-campus and distance learning courses. Review of applications begins November 7, and screening interviews, arranged by the Department Chair, will be conducted at the SAMLA Conference in Baltimore, November 14-16, and at the MLA Convention in New York, December 27-30. Applicants should send a cover letter, a current resume, transcripts of all graduate work, and three letters of recommendation to Dr. Jill Sessoms, Chair, Department of English and Journalism, Coastal Carolina University, P.O. Box 261954, Conway, SC 29528-6054. ----- End forwarded message ----- ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Nov 6 12:56:51 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:56:51 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: While searching for "ethnic cleansing" in the archives, I came across the following post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905A&L=ads-l&P=R1252 It begins thusly: "This posting is more about history than about language, but it is a response to a posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic cleansing.'" I've searched and searched but I can't find the "posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic cleansing'." Can anyone help me find that post, or send me a copy if you have it? Even better, does anyone have any information about the earliest use of "ethnic cleansing," particularly anything that antedates the OED's 1991 cite? Thanks. Paul From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 13:45:13 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:45:13 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 2:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM writes: > I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as > auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English > tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I > think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short > or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. Ethnic disparagement by language is hardly an "ignoble English tradition" as it has occurs in many other languages as well. (Sounds like a topic for sociolinguists to study.) A "classical" example is from Classical Greek, where non-Greeks were lumped together as "barbarians". Does anyone know if this Greek word "barbar" passed into Arabic and became responsible for the names "Barbary coast" and "Berber"? Back to the Dutch. While in English "Dutch" is used disparagingly for "things that fall short" (e.g. "Dutch courage"), I am told by a former coworker who lived in the Low Countries that Belgians tell jokes about stingy Dutch people (and the Dutch respond with jokes about dumb Belgians). It seems we can't even get a consistent negative stereotype. One more question: in theatrical work there is the noun and verb "dutchman" meaning a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps in the stage set, and to apply same. I have never heard it outside the stage, but MWCD10 defines it as "a device for hiding or counteracting structural defects" with no restriction given to any particular field. Is this use of "dutchman" one more example of English's negative stereotype of the Dutch? (The alternative seems to be that at one time English stagehands all went to Holland for training, which does not seem likely.) - Jim Landau P.S. I picked up the habit of referring to Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate as "MWCD10" from Jeff Miller's Web site on history of math words (URL http://members.aol.com/jeff570/mathword.html). Is this a standard abbreviation, or did Jeff invent it? From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 6 13:45:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:45:23 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or "gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create something outside the normal scheme of things. ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Nov 6 14:07:52 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:07:52 -0000 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: Further to David Bergdahl's links to Prohibition-era 'gin', Partridge (DSUE) also, and quite separately to the 'gen' material, offers 'gin up': 'to consume hard liquor before a party' in order to induce a 'party spirit'. This he attributes to 'Service officers' and dates it to c.1930. He has no figurative use, however. Mathews' _Dict. Americanisms_ has a first use, again of the drinking definition only, in 1894. Mathews also has the phrase 'gin her up': 'to work hard, to infuse with energy' and offers an 1887 cite. In this case the etymology may be 'gin', an engine, but possibly the SE 'ginger up', which dates back to a popular 18C means of enlivening a horse with a judiciously placed lump of root ginger. Jonathon Green From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 6 14:56:42 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:56:42 -0500 Subject: Brother Jonathan (1791) In-Reply-To: <08E7A399.43E5FB46.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 05, 2002 at 10:24:03PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Brother Jonathan" is/was a symbol of our country, much like >"Uncle Sam." It's frequently also just "Jonathan," but >that's difficult to trace. Though the _Dictionary of Americanisms_ does have a 1780 cite for _Jonathan._ Jesse Sheidlower OED From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Nov 6 15:23:05 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: Jambalaya (1849) In-Reply-To: <2CB7CF31.1B5CA7C7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: This is interesting, given that nowadays hopping John and jambalaya are not the same dish. Is there other evidence for jambalaya having been called "hopping John" at one time? Ben On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > _Hopping Johnny_ (jambalaya).--Take a dressed chicken, or full-grown fowl, if not old, and cut all the flesh into small pieces, with a sharp knife. Put this into an iron pot, with a large spoonful of butter and one onion chopped fine; sttep and stir it till it is brown; then add water enough to cover it, and put in some parsley, spices, and red pepper pods, chopped fine, and let it boil till you think it is barely done, taking care to stir it often, so as not to burn it; then stir in as much rice, when cooked, as will absorb all the water; stir and boil it a minute or so, andthen let it stand and simmer until the rice is cooked, and you will have a most delicious dish of palatable, digestible food. > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:21:11 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:21:11 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I and my colleagues, not in one specific geographical area, don't feel Google is superior. And I've reaffirmed that several times also. What we have here is personal preference about the organization and focus of search engines, especially concerning what to leave out and what to include. I'd much prefer to discriminate about data myself rather than let a third party do that. Dodi Schultz wrote: > Lesa Dill asks, > > >> Are there regional preferences for search engines? Why isn't it > >> "Yahoo! John Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > > In answer to your first question: Not to my knowledge. I have found, as > have most of my friends and colleagues (who are not concentrated in any > particular geographical area), that Google is simply superior to the > others. Personally, I've reaffirmed that each time I've done a comparative > test (which I do whenever I see another search engine recommended). > > In answer to your second question: See the answer to the first question. > > --Dodi Schultz From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:30:48 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:30:48 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: That's what I would have assumed. Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote: > >"Barney Google and his goo-goo-googly eyes" (a song whose age I won't even > >estimate) implies that "Google" (a proper name) has spawned the adjective > >"googly" and therefore it should not be improbable that someone would also > >use it as a verb ("Barney googled Miss X..."). Actually this derivation fits > >your context better than a derivation from the name of the Internet search > >engine. In a bar (particularly if the bar in question is notorious as a > >pick-up bar) one is more likely to notice having eyed in a strange or > >remarkable manner than to notice one's Web pages have just been examined. > > Isn't an allusion to the verb "ogle" implied? > > Jan Ivarsson > jan.ivarsson at transedit.st > http://www.transedit.st From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Nov 6 16:37:07 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:37:07 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like DogPile John Smith myself. Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > > #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > # > #I don't know. > > How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be > Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? > > "Yahoo" already exists in everyday English. "Dog pile" is meaningful, > although I'm pretty sure the connotation that I have for it is not the > one the creators intended! ("Watch your step, there's a dog pile!") > "Yahoo! John Smith", especially with that dratted exclamation mark, > reads as = 'hurray for J.S.'. > > "Google", OTOH, is novel to most speakers. Yes, I know about Barney > Google, and I know about the song, but I'd bet a cookie (the edible > kind) that to the great majority of English-speakers who know the word, > the first meaning that comes to mind is the search engine. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 17:14:05 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:14:05 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Does anyone know if this Greek word "barbar" passed into Arabic and became > responsible for the names "Barbary coast" and "Berber"? > >From OED (online version): "Arab. Barbar, Berber, applied by the Arab geographers from ancient times to the natives of N. Africa, west and south of Egypt. According to some native lexicographers, of native origin, f. Arab. barbara to talk noisily and confusedly (which is not derived from Gr. ); according to others, a foreign word, African, Egyptian, or perh. from Greek. The actual relations (if any) of the Arabic and Gr. words cannot be settled; but in European langs. Barbaria, Barbarie, Barbary, have from the first been treated as identical with L. barbaria, Byzantine Gr. land of barbarians" > > One more question: in theatrical work there is the noun and verb "dutchman" > meaning a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps > in the stage set, and to apply same. I have never heard it outside the > stage, but MWCD10 defines it as "a device for hiding or counteracting > structural defects" with no restriction given to any particular field. > I think it might be used to masonry and carpentry. Also from the online OED: "4. In technical applications (see quots.). Chiefly U.S. 1859 BARTLETT Dict. Amer. 134 Dutchman, a flaw in a stone or marble slab, filled up by an insertion. 1874 KNIGHT Dict. Mech., Dutchman (Carpentry), a playful name for a block or wedge of wood driven into a gap to hide the fault in a badly made joint. 1905 Terms Forestry & Logging 36 Dutchman, a short stick placed transversely between the outer logs of a load to divert the load toward the middle and so keep any logs from falling off. 1909 Cent. Dict. Suppl., Dutchman, a layer of suet fastened with skewers into a roast of lean beef or mutton. 1957 Brit. Commonwealth Forest Terminol. 64 Dutchman, a prop used in logging for such purposes as preventing the binding of a saw when crosscutting, or for supporting the coupling of an arch while it is being hooked to a tractor. 1960 New Yorker 3 Sept. 20/3 He mended the [marble] lion by cutting recesses several inches deep wherever the stone was damaged, and fitting new pieces of stone therein. These pieces are known in the trade as dutchmen." I've heard the carpentry uses but not cooking one. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 17:51:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:51:05 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 12:14:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > From OED (online version): > > "Arab. Barbar, Berber, applied by the Arab geographers from ancient times > to the natives of N. Africa Thanks for the information. An odd thing about the OED text: The Arabs led the world in geography and many other intellectual pursuits from the rise of Islam to roughly the Renaissance. However, as far as I know, there were no works of geography written in Arabic before Muhammed. Hence the OED seems to be referring to Moslem Arab geographers as living "in ancient times". Now these Arabs lived in what Christian Europe thinks of as "the Middle Ages" and I personally do not think of the Middle ages as being "ancient". Neither do I think of the early Islamic period, or any Islamic period, as "ancient." This is of course personal preference, but does anyone else find the OED usage of "ancient times" to be odd? Or am I wrong and there do exist documents from pre-Moslem Arabia that apply "B-R-B-R" (Barbar, Berber when vowels are added) to North Africa? (Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia during that time.) - Jim Landau From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 18:03:13 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:03:13 EST Subject: curtain stretcher Message-ID: In a message dated 10/11/02 10:12:03 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: << >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried during which time the curtains were waiting on tenterhooks, but not on pins and needles >it could be ironed. >> Hmmm, sounds painful. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:05:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:05:22 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: <200211060208_MC3-1-1930-6683@compuserve.com> Message-ID: At 2:08 AM -0500 11/6/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: >I gather that "Dutch treat"--along with other "Dutch ____" terms such as >auction, bargain, concert, courage, wife--is part of that ignoble English >tradition of Dutch disparagement (dating from the 16th or 17th century, I >think) which we continued in the US. All, describing things that fell short >or were decidedly *not* the thing thus modified. > >One such, apparently dropped by the 20th century (I don't find it in later >dictionaries), was "Dutch gold," defined as not gold, of course, but as >"copper, brass, and bronze leaf, used largely in Holland to ornament toys." >(from M-W 1864) > I don't have my Farmer & Henley _Slang and its Analogues_ on me, but they list many many such entries, all traceable back (they note) to the 17th century Herring Wars between England and Holland for supremacy of the North Sea fishing grounds. A sampler (note that there's a bit of sex-based as well as national chauvinism revealed here): dutch auction: a sale at minimum prices dutch bargain: a bargain all on one side dutch-clock: a bedpan; a wife dutch concert, dutch medley: a hubbub, whereat everyone sings and plays at the same time dutch consolation: Job's comfort; unconsoling consolation (e.g. "Thank heaven it is no worse") dutch courage: pot-valiancy, courage due to intoxication dutch feast: an entertainment where the host gets drunk before his guests dutch treat: an entertainment where everyone pays his own shot dutch uncle: an uncle of peculiar fierceness (I'll talk to him like a Dutch uncle = 'I will reprove him severely') dutch widow: a prostitute dutch wife: a bolster (on a bed) That beats the Dutch: a sarcastic superlative to do a dutch: to desert, run away to talk double-dutch: to talk gibberish, nonsense I'm a Dutchman if I do: a strong refusal (= I'm damned if I will) Larry From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:08:47 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:08:47 -0500 Subject: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) Message-ID: Perhaps I can obfuscate this discussion a bit. Evidently more or less contemporaneously with the Jack Rose cocktail there was a brand of cigars called Jack Rose. [From Douglas Gilbert, American Vaudeville: Its Life and Times, N. Y.: Dover, 1968, p. 227. (The book was originally published in 1940.) It has a reference to] . . . a five cent package of Jack Rose little cigars (later called "squealers," after the witness by the same name who informed in the Rosenthal case). . . . This refers to the murder of Herman Rosenthal in 1912; a gambler of dubious morals named Jack Rose was a principal informer. The murder was, and to a degree still is, notorious. Four men were executed for it, including Charles Becker, a prominent police lieutenant. Of these, one or two may have been innocent, including the policeman. The prosecutor in the case, Charles Whitman, used the name-recognition he got from the case to get elected governor, so that Becker had to appeal to Governor Whitman to commute the death sentence won by DA Whitman, with predictable results. There have been several books about the case, including one by Andy Logan, in the early 1970s. I haven't read Logan's book for some years, not anything else about the case, but I did not have the impression that Jack Rose the squealer had been a man of much note before the murder. But perhaps he was famous enough in the right circles to have a drink and a cigar named after him. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 5, 2002 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Jack Rose cocktail (1905) > At 8:51 PM -0500 11/4/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > I was looking unsuccessfully for other cocktail names. I > >discussed this in September 2000, in a cite from TAP & TAVERN. (See > >ADS-L archives.) > > > > 22 April 1905, NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, pg. 14: > > > >_AN ATHLETIC MIXOLOGIST_ > >_Wise Bartenders will Get Good Tips in This Column._ > > Frank J. May, better known as Jack Rose, is the inventor of a > >very popular cocktail by that name, which has made him famous as a > >mixologist. He is at present looking after the managerial affairs > >of Gene Sullivan's Cafe, at 187 Pavonia avenue, Jersey City, N. J., > >one of the most popular resorts in that city. Mr. May takes an > >active interest in sports, and as a wrestler could give many of the > >professional wrestlers a warm argument. > > Here's another version or two, courtesy of > http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/97/11/index4a.html > (the site has a lovely picture of the drink, which does indeed > like a > Jacqueminot rose--or so I imagine). I was wondering if there was > any relation to Rose's Lime Juice, but as far as I can tell there > isn't. > > Larry > ======================== > > This cocktail gives us a twinge at the back of the tongue before > smoothly sliding down the gullet, swathed in sweetness. It's the mix > of pain and > delight in the Jack Rose that we just can't say no to. > > Mixed with 1 1/2 ounces applejack and an ounce lime juice (or 1/2 an > ounce lemon juice), followed by half an ounce grenadine, the Jack Rose > has the tang of Jersey Lightning and the sappy charm of grenadine. > The lime is the bridge from one to the other. But it's not the Jack > Rose's > deep-laid taste, only hinting at apple, that attracts imbibers. > Instead, it's the drink's hue - not quite red, not quite pink - that > draws us to the > cocktail. > > We had just assumed the Jack Rose was named for its color. After all, > Albert S. Crockett, author of the 1934 Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar, wrote > that the Jack Rose, or Jacque Rose, was "the exact shade of a > Jacqueminot rose, when properly concocted." The rose, in turn, is > named after > French general Jean-Fran?ois Jacqueminot, who endured from 1787 until > 1865. Some suggest the drink was named after the general, but we're > certain that can't be: The French would never allow a drink mixed > with the Yankee cousin of their fine apple brandy, Calvados, to be > tied to their > language. > > Our efforts to find a more believable christening of the Jack Rose > took us to the Colts Neck Inn of Colts Neck, New Jersey: "The great, > great > grandpa of the Laird family, the restaurant's first owner and the > only distiller left making applejack, invented it," says Nelson > Fastige, a Colts > Neck bartender for the last 14 years. "His name was Jack, and the > drink was a reddish pink color, like the rose." A modest enough tale > that > almost inspired us to stop our search. But not having put in a good > day's work, we decided to call the Laird family in Scobeyville, New > Jersey. > "The Jack Rose cocktail was not invented at the Colts Neck Inn as > some believe. Nor was it created by a Laird family ancestor," Lisa > Laird-Dunn, the Laird & Company's VP and a member of the family's > ninth generation, told us. "One of the more colorful myths is in fact > truth, > not fiction.... During the late 1800s, there was a gentleman by the > name of Jack Rose, from New York City. He was regarded as somewhat of > a > shady character who made his living in and around City Hall and the > New York courts. Mr. Rose's favorite beverage was applejack, and he > consumed it mixed with lemon juice and grenadine. He became known for > this cocktail, thus it was dubbed the Jack Rose." > > We certainly like the idea of a gangster rogue, instead of a > presumably well-behaved and well-aged gentleman, sipping the Jack > Rose. So we > called it a day and tried to find an establishment that would serve > us a round of Jack Roses. But alas, no luck. If they weren't trying > to swap > Calvados for applejack, then they were set on serving the cocktail > with apple brandy - all while charging us an extra 50 cents per > drink. We'll > actually take these substitutes in a pinch, but attest the Jack Rose > is far from the same without that applejack burn. Besides, if we're > going to sip > apple brandy, we'd rather have it straight. Occasionally, to coax the > mixer into meeting our demands, we'll quote from Ms. Laird-Dunn: "The > drink became very popular in the early 1900s and remained so after > the repeal of Prohibition. There wasn't a restaurant in New York City > that > did not serve the Jack Rose." To which most bartenders reply that we > ought to consider a move. > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:27:05 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:27:05 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > An odd thing about the OED text: The Arabs led the world in geography and > many other intellectual pursuits from the rise of Islam to roughly the > Renaissance. However, as far as I know, there were no works of geography > written in Arabic before Muhammed. Other than some inscriptions and a few papyri (as far as I know, none of them about geography or North Africa), there aren't any written Arabic documents before Muhammad, at least none that survived if they existed at all. There is a corpus of pre-Islamic poetry, but again that wasn't recorded in writing until after Muhammad. > Or am I wrong and there do exist > documents from pre-Moslem Arabia that apply "B-R-B-R" (Barbar, Berber when > vowels are added) to North Africa? None that I know of. > > (Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but > Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of > Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which > was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia > during that time.) Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon has this under barbar, "a foreign word [probably of African origin the primary form of which is the source of [Greek] Barbaros, or as some suggest from [Arabic] barbarah in speech" So Lane would derive both the Arabic AND Greek words from some common African original. Unfortunately he does not give more details. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 6 18:50:48 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:50:48 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to the Indian burn. With the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and forth on the skull of the inferior person. The Indian burn involved grabbing someone's wrist with both hands and twisting smartly back and forth, stretching the skin taut in both directions. Was any other little brother out there the recipient of such torture from an older brother? (i.e. has anyone else lived to tell about it?) Peter R. From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Wed Nov 6 19:38:50 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:38:50 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. Paul ----- Original Message ----- > While searching for "ethnic cleansing" in the archives, I came across the > following post: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905A&L=ads-l&P=R1252 > > It begins thusly: > > "This posting is more about history than about language, but it is a > response to a posting about the earliest use of the term 'ethnic > cleansing.'" > > I've searched and searched but I can't find the "posting about the earliest > use of the term 'ethnic cleansing'." Can anyone help me find that post, or > send me a copy if you have it? Even better, does anyone have any information > about the earliest use of "ethnic cleansing," particularly anything that > antedates the OED's 1991 cite? From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 6 19:40:22 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:40:22 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" In-Reply-To: <0ec501c285cc$21e1e470$ef9afea9@paul> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 02:38:50PM -0500, Paul McFedries wrote: > I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from > which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. If it sheds any light on the term's use, would you care to share it with us? Jesse Sheidlower From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 6 20:20:33 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:20:33 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dutch rub sounds like a noogie (not sure of the spelling). Noogie was used in a SNL skit with Gilda Radner and Bill Murray. I didn;t get too many of these, but was tortured by endless games of "Why are you hitting yourself?" Ed --- Peter Richardson wrote: > Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to > the Indian burn. With > the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and > forth on the skull of the > inferior person. The Indian burn involved grabbing > someone's wrist with > both hands and twisting smartly back and forth, > stretching the skin taut > in both directions. Was any other little brother out > there the recipient > of such torture from an older brother? (i.e. has > anyone else lived to tell > about it?) > > Peter R. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 6 21:16:26 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:16:26 EST Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/02 1:58:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: > Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon has this under barbar, "a foreign word > [probably of African origin the primary form of which is the source of > [Greek] Barbaros, By "African" I can only surmise that Lane means what used to be called "Hamitic", that is, the branch of the Afro-Asiatic (as it is now called) language family which includes ancient Egyptian and other languages of the western short of the Red Sea. Now the Greeks back to Mycenean times were familiar with Egypt and could easily have added some Egyptian words to Greek. We now have the interesting suggestion that the Greeks adopted a foreign word to use as a disparaging term for foreigners. It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 6 21:26:44 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:26:44 -0800 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to > some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. > And still do. Hans Wehr, Arabic-English dictionary: tafarnaja (vb.) to become Europeanized, adopt European manners, imitate the Europeans al-Ifranj the Europeans, Bilad al-Ifranj Europe. Ifranji (adj) European. Firanja Land of the Franks, Europe. tafarnuj (n) Europeanization, imitation of the Europeans. mutafarnij (adj) Europeanized, etc. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Nov 6 23:27:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:27:24 -0500 Subject: Being Googled In-Reply-To: <3DC94533.222B063E@wku.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #Mark A Mandel wrote: #> On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #> #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: #> #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? #> # #> #I don't know. #> #> How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be #> Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? [...] #Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like #DogPile John Smith myself. There's always the wink ;-) . The reason for emoticons is that on the Net, nobody can hear your tone of voice or see your facial expression or body language. Your question sounded perfectly straightforward to me, and evidently to Bethany, too. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 05:36:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:36:11 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1883 for "geoduck." I'm sorry that I have only 1882, but it's a decent 1882 citation from the American Periodical Series. I gotta do something for Allen Maberry up there in Washington. 29 April 1882, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 264: _The Geoduck._ BY JOHN A. RYDER. The following extract from a list of shells sent with some specimens to Mr. George W. Tryon, jr., the Conservator of the Conchological Section of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia, by Mr. Henry Hemphill, appears to me to be of importance as a contribution to economical science, and with Mr. Tryon's permission I am allowed to make use of it for publication. "_Glycimeris generosa_. Olympia, Washington Territory. "I send you a fine large specimen of this species. Its flesh is, I think, the most delicious of any bivalve I have ever eaten, not excepting the best oysters. "When first dug and laid upon its back, it resembles a fat plump duck. The edges of the shell do not meet, but are separated by a breast of flesh (the greatly thickened mantle) about three inches wide, one inch thick, and about a foot long, including about half of its siphon. This portion is cut into thin slices, rolled in meal, and fried. It is exceedingly tender, juicy, and sweet, and about the consistency of scrambled eggs, which it resembles very much in taste. The boys at Olympia call them'Geoducks;' they dig them on a certain sand bar at extreme low tide, and sell them to a merchant who ships them to Portland, Oregon, where they readily sell at fair prices. The boys inform me that the Indians on the Sound call them Quenux, and dry them for food with the other clams." (...) --_Bulletin U. S. Fish Commission_. 23 February 1883, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: But the oolachan pales before something called the "geoduck." This name alone has an inviting sound. You find the geoduck principally in Puget SOund and in San Diego Bay, though it is scattered all along the coast from San Francisco to the north. It might be a pity to call it a clam, though it belongs to that humble family, and unpoetical naturalists call it _Glycimeris generosa_. The terminal name, however, shows that the scientific person who baptized it was somewhat touched by its great merits. (...) The method of cooking is to cut off four pounds of geoduck in slices, to roll it in meal, and to fry it. Then, says a gustatory critic, "You have something like scrambled eggs, but with a flavor of its own." Why should not the geoduck be sent to us? If we have given the west coast our shad they might return favors by sending us their geoduck for cultivation. We ought to try and propogate this prince of clams. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 05:59:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 00:59:38 -0500 Subject: Hopping John (1834) Message-ID: My "jambalaya" antedate is "hopping johnny," and my "hopping john" antedate now looks like it's something else! From the ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES database. May, 1834 THE LADY'S BOOK (GODEY'S--ed.) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Volume VIII Page 244 "What shall we have?--It's cold.--What d'ye say to Hopping John, made Tom Nottle's fashion?--Landlord, mix a pint of brandy wi' half a gallon of your best cider, sugared to your own taste; and d'ye mind?--pop in about a dozen good roasted apples, hissing hot, to take the chill off." In a short time, the two cousins were seated by the fire, in a little room behind the bar of the Sawney's Cross, with a smoking bowl of liquor on the table before them, and Ned Creese assisting them to empty it. By degrees, the cousins became elevated, and their chat was enlivened by budding jokes and choice flowers or rustic song. Harry's forehead frequently reminded him, in the midst of his glee, of the (Word missing?--ed.) in the road; and he recurred to it, for the fifth time, since the sitting, as Ned brought in a second beverage of hot Hopping John:--"I'd lay a wager I know where my blind galloway is, just about now," quoth he; "it's odd to me if he isn't stopping at the Dragon's Head, where he always pulls up, and tempts me to call for a cup of cider and a mouthful of hay. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 06:11:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 01:11:38 -0500 Subject: Angel's Food (December 1868) Message-ID: GODEY'S calls "Angel's Food" a new dish in 1868? Do we have a rock-solid antedate with this, from ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES? December, 1868 Godey's Lady's Book Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Vol. LXXVII Page 539 Light Corn Bread... Sally Lunn... Floats... Cocoanut Pudding... White Mountain Ash Cake. One pound of white sugar, one teacupful of butter, half a cupful of sweet milk, the whites of ten eggs, half a small teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of cream of tartar, three cups of flour; flavor with vanilla or almond. Bake in jelly-cake pans with icing between. Icing for Cake... Raised Waffles... Lady Fingers... Spnge Pudding... Angel's Food. A New Dish. Make a rich custard, pour it in a glass bowl, and put a layer of sliced cake on it. Stir some finely-powdered sugar into quince or apple jelly, and drop it on the cake. Pour syllabub on the cake, and then put on another layer of cake, and icing. Washington Pie Cake. Half a teacup of butter, two cups of flour, four eggs. Mix the butter and sugar together, add the yelks (Yolks?--ed.), then the whites beaten to a froth. Mix one teaspoonful of cream of tartar in the flour, add one-half a teacupful of milk, in which is dissolved a half teaspoonful of soda. Bake like a loaf of jelly cake. The Jelly Part. One pint of sweet milk sweetened and flavored, one egg beaten, two tablespoonfuls of corn-starch. Cooked like blancmange. Gumbo... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 07:23:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 02:23:30 -0500 Subject: Fruit Cake (1828) Message-ID: Merriam-Webster has 1848 and OED has 1854 for "fruit cake." I had found some 1840s citations that were a little earlier. I just did some web searching of ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES, AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES, GERRITSEN COLLECTION, and NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS & DIARIES. We have some pretty good databases for this stuff! There is an 1822 hit on APS that I'll have to get the actual APS reel to check tomorrow (today). If any newspapers want to know about "fruitcake" this holiday season--and you know that they will--good gosh, don't come to me. Especially not the NEW YORK TIMES. Ask Nigella Lawson. She knows everything. 20 December 1828, SATURDAY EVENING POST (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES database), pg. 0_003 (?): The careful dame is anxiously employed in superintending the manufacture of pastry and pudding, and the younger ladies glow with the best of baking pound cake, and fruit cake--ladies fingers and jumbles. 1840, THE HOUSE BOOK: OR, A MANUAL OF DOMESTIC ECONOMY (Philadelphia: Carey & Hart) by Eliza Leslie (GERRITSEN COLLECTION database), pg. 146: A large plum-cake or fruit cake will require six or seven hours to bake; and it should not be taken out till the oven has grown quite cold. November 1841, THE LADY'S BOOK (ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES database), pg. 195: He fruit cake would not rise, but came out of the hoop a hard, heavy, black mass, of which it would have been difficult to tell the designation;... (...) ...but Mrs. Haverset assured her that no one noticed whether fruit cake was light or heavy, and that the bride cake, could be scraped and cut into shape, and when iced would look quite a different thing. (...) The fruit cake had been rescued by Hannah before entirely too late, Mrs. Haverset concluding that as it was not absolutely necessary for fruit cake to be sent in whole, it might be cut up when cool, after the burnt iceing had been scraped off, and put into baskets. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Nov 7 14:54:34 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:54:34 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <0E0BFD25.11E3E3E2.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 7 14:54:07 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:54:07 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 09:54:34AM -0500, sagehen wrote: > I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. > When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local > pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & > other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. The pronunciation is unquestionably GOO-ee-duck. The OED's pronunciation is in error and will be corrected. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:20:45 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:20:45 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" In-Reply-To: <002701c28520$2828b7c0$b1b89b3f@db> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Nov 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #>From Google cites, British "Gen up" seems to originate in computerspeak--the #next generation software will have new features, hence to innovate = to gen #up something. British "gen" for 'information' is much older than computers, though I have no refs at hand. That's not to contradict your suggestion, but the older "gen" may well have fed into it. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:29:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:29:24 -0500 Subject: more on "gen up" and "gin up" In-Reply-To: <001301c28572$f9936e70$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #'Gen' as meaning information is not computerspeak but an RAF coinage - #Partridge suggests as early as 1929 - which was widely popularized during #WW2. It is, supposedly, an abbreviation of 'general information of all #ranks.' He also has 'genned up': = well supplied with infomation, listed in #the Dict. Forces Slang 1939-45 (1948), although 'gen up, is defined only as #'to swot for a test or examination; to read up a subject'. In addition he #lists 'gen king' or 'gen wallah': 'one who can be tapped for trustworthy [...] With similar Raj connotations I have seen "pukka gen", which I understood to mean 'genuine (i.e., reliable) information'. (Cf. "pukka sahib". From _The New Fowler's Modern English Usage_ s.v. "sahib", via http://www.xrefer.com/entry/596835: "(In colonial India) [...] A pukka sahib was a true gentleman"]. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:34:39 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:34:39 -0500 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" In-Reply-To: <005901c2859a$c2305380$64b89b3f@db> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, David Bergdahl wrote: #Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or #"gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar #phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: # #As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my #writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era #days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in #their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also #took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create #something outside the normal scheme of things. This is only folk etymology. He says, "I always took it to be ..." That's what he supposed about an expression he heard from his father, not the result of research or of firsthand knowledge, or even of n-th-hand knowledge (such as "Dad, why do you call it that?"). -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:40:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:40:19 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #(Incidentally, I'm not saying that the Arabic word BRBR is from Greek, but #Arabia had Greek-speaking neighbors in the Fertile Crescent from the days of #Alexander the Great until the Islamic conquest of the Fertile Crescent, which #was nine or ten centuries, so the Greek word could have travelled into Arabia #during that time.) Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is this one worldwide? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:44:09 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:44:09 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Larry's list calls to mind _Dutch rub_, analogous to the Indian burn. With #the Dutch rub, the knuckles were ground back and forth on the skull of the #inferior person. As a kid (late 50s-early 60s) I called this a "noogie", /'n U g i:/. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 7 15:46:27 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:46:27 -0500 Subject: Dutch Treat (1885) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, A. Maberry wrote: #On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #> It's possible. At one time Arabs referred to Europeans as "Franks" due to #> some interesting experiences with French Crusaders. # #And still do. Hans Wehr, Arabic-English dictionary: tafarnaja (vb.) to #become Europeanized, adopt European manners, imitate the Europeans #al-Ifranj the Europeans, Bilad al-Ifranj Europe. Ifranji (adj) European. #Firanja Land of the Franks, Europe. tafarnuj (n) Europeanization, #imitation of the Europeans. mutafarnij (adj) Europeanized, etc. ISTR a long discussion of this topic some years ago either here or on LINGUIST List. It included quite a bit of solid etymology. -- Mark M. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 15:47:34 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:47:34 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: It's goo-ee-duck. >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 15:50:45 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:50:45 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: It's GOO-ee-duck. Fritz (Oregon) >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. A. Murie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 15:50:42 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:50:42 -0500 Subject: Hopping John (1834) In-Reply-To: <2A0F35AF.3FD07F6D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a great recipe for the holidays! >May, 1834 >THE LADY'S BOOK (GODEY'S--ed.) >Philadelphia, Pennsylvania >Volume VIII Page 244 > >"What shall we have?--It's cold.--What d'ye say to Hopping John, made Tom >Nottle's fashion?--Landlord, mix a pint of brandy wi' half a gallon of >your best cider, sugared to your own taste; and d'ye mind?--pop in about a >dozen good roasted apples, hissing hot, to take the chill off." > >In a short time, the two cousins were seated by the fire, in a little room >behind the bar of the Sawney's Cross, with a smoking bowl of liquor on the >table before them, and Ned Creese assisting them to empty it. By degrees, >the cousins became elevated, and their chat was enlivened by budding jokes >and choice flowers or rustic song. Harry's forehead frequently reminded >him, in the midst of his glee, of the (Word missing?--ed.) in the road; >and he recurred to it, for the fifth time, since the sitting, as Ned >brought in a second beverage of hot Hopping John:--"I'd lay a wager I know >where my blind galloway is, just about now," quoth he; "it's odd to me if >he isn't stopping at the Dragon's Head, where he always pulls up, and >tempts me to call for a cup of cider and a mouthful of hay. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 15:55:36 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Angel's Food (December 1868) In-Reply-To: <27333EF7.66DF2315.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: This isn't the angel food cake we know today (egg whites and flour). In fact, it sounds more like Boston cream pie/cake. But what's syllabub? BTW, "yelks" are indeed yolks; that's a common pronunciation in some dialects, spelled here as it sounds. At 01:11 AM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: > GODEY'S calls "Angel's Food" a new dish in 1868? Do we have a > rock-solid antedate with this, from ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES? > > >December, 1868 >Godey's Lady's Book >Philadelphia, Pennsylvania >Vol. LXXVII Page 539 > >... >Angel's Food. A New Dish. Make a rich custard, pour it in a glass bowl, >and put a layer of sliced cake on it. Stir some finely-powdered sugar >into quince or apple jelly, and drop it on the cake. Pour syllabub on the >cake, and then put on another layer of cake, and icing. >Washington Pie Cake. Half a teacup of butter, two cups of flour, four >eggs. Mix the butter and sugar together, add the yelks (Yolks?--ed.), >then the whites beaten to a froth. Mix one teaspoonful of cream of tartar >in the flour, add one-half a teacupful of milk, in which is dissolved a >half teaspoonful of soda. Bake like a loaf of jelly cake. >The Jelly Part. One pint of sweet milk sweetened and flavored, one egg >beaten, two tablespoonfuls of corn-starch. Cooked like blancmange. From k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 7 16:49:29 2002 From: k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM (Casey :-)) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:49:29 +0000 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 7 16:57:51 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:57:51 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>> sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM 11/07/02 06:54AM >>> > I note that OED gives /geoduck/ the pronunciation: 'GEE OH DUCK. > When I lived in Washington state in the late 40s, the prevailing local > pronunciation of /geoduck/ was 'GOO EE DUCK. Perhaps Maberry, Gilbert & > other current NW residents can tell us if this is still true. > A. Murie yep, gooey duck. The gooey-er the better. Just as Puyallup isn't poo-yallup, but rather pyu-allup. Peter R. Oregon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 16:59:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:59:23 EST Subject: Snitz and Knep (1866); Kielbasy (1910); Dago Red (1900) Message-ID: SNITZ AND KNEP ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES, in addition to the very important GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK, has some pre-1871 Delaware/Pennsylvania newspapers. This should help me with PA Dutch regional food, but so far it hasn't. DARE will have this item, but I have no idea of the date. John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1869. June 1866 Godey's Lady's Book Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Vol LXXII Page 549 SNITZ AND KNEP. Take of sweet dried apples (dried with the skins on, if you can get them) about one quart. Put them in the bottom of a porcelain or tin-lined boiler with a cover. Take a nice piece of smoked ham washed very clean, and lay on top; add enough water to cook them nicely. About twenty minutes before dishing up, add the following dumplings. Dumplings. Mix a cup of warm milk with one egg, a little salt, and a little yeast, and enough flour to make a sponge. When light, work into a loaf. Let stand until about twenty minutes before dinner, then cut off slices or lumps, and lay on the apples, and let steam through. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KIELBASY 22 January 1910, A JOURNAL OF OUTDOOR LIFE, TRAVEL, NATURE STUDY, SHOOTING, FISHING, YACHTING (APS database), Pg. 141: The rarefied air of the mountains had sharpened our appetites, and before putting the rods together B. and I sat down under the shade of a willow to eat our second breakfast, while old Mikolaj, the forester, enjoyed his "kielbasy" and vodki a little apart. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DAGO RED The RHHDAS has 1906. May 1900, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE (also on MOA?), pg. 0_008: The wine, called "Dago red," is of an inferior quality and ostensibly furnished free, participation in the game only being paid for. May 1903, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 363: ..."dago red," as the rough claret preferred by the denizens of this quarter is popularly designated. (In "The Humbler Restaurants of San Francisco"--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOWIE KNIFE DARE wanted 1835. It's all over the place, but starting 17 December 1836 in ATKINSON'S SATURDAY EVENING POST. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 17:21:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:21:25 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <0E0BFD25.11E3E3E2.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:36 AM -0500 11/7/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1883 for "geoduck." I'm sorry >that I have only 1882, but it's a decent 1882 citation from the >American Periodical Series. I gotta do something for Allen Maberry >up there in Washington. > > > 29 April 1882, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, pg. 264: > _The Geoduck._ > BY JOHN A. RYDER. > The following extract from a list of shells sent with some >specimens to Mr. George W. Tryon, jr., the Conservator of the >Conchological Section of the Academy of Natural Sciences of >Philadelphia, by Mr. Henry Hemphill, appears to me to be of >importance as a contribution to economical science, and with Mr. >Tryon's permission I am allowed to make use of it for publication. > "_Glycimeris generosa_. Olympia, Washington Territory. > "I send you a fine large specimen of this species. Its flesh is, >I think, the most delicious of any bivalve I have ever eaten, not >excepting the best oysters. >... > 23 February 1883, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > But the oolachan pales before something called the "geoduck." >This name alone has an inviting sound. Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? Given the purported etymology (AHD4: from Puget Salish gwid at q), it's the spelling rather the pronunciation that's off here. And I suppose the "duck" spelling in particular represents the same kind of folk etymology we have in "crayfish", "rosemary", and "mushroom". larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 19:26:58 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:26:58 EST Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > this one worldwide? Gee, I always thought "babble" came from the Tower of Babel legend, but MWCD10 says "ME babelen, prob. of imit. origin" and dates it as 13th Century. "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to English but has no other connection with Greek. "Babel" comes from "Babylon"? Unproven, as far as I know, but probably yes. The Babylonian Gilgamesh cycle includes a version of Noah's flood, from which we can conclude that the Israelites were familiar with Babylonian legends, or vice versa, or that the Israelites and the Babylonians drew on a common source for legends (it doesn't matter which). In other words, the Israelites, long before the Babylonican conquest, had some familiarity with Babylonia and its most famous city, Babylon. It has been suggested that the Tower of Babel legend is due to the Babylonian ziggurats being interpreted by some non-Babylonian as an attempt to reach the heavens. Certainly ziggurats would be commonly associated with the city of Babylon. Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > The prima > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > this one worldwide? You may be right about onomatopoeia but your suggested evidence is tricky. If "babble" occurs in a number of languages, then it is probably due to the Book of Genesis, which is known worldwide. On the other hand, if "babble" is restricted to English and maybe a handful of other languages, then you can argue for onomatopoeia on the grounds that if such a well-known word escaped from the Bible, it would be far more widespread. - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 19:32:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is >in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's convinced about J's true identity. larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 7 19:38:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:38:36 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ - Jim Landau. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:30:30 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:30:30 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <25.307f5a16.2afc1b3c@aol.com> Message-ID: I would guess it was an attempt to represent the American Indian original, which may have had either a glottal stop or [x] in the first syllable; both are common in many AmInd languages. So what was a nonnative speaker to do when spelling it in English? When does the name first appear in print? And how about the Monongahela (sp?)? At 02:38 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? > >No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is >pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") >came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first >English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then >English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and >no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ > > - Jim Landau. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:33:37 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:33:37 -0800 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > > > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or > > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima > > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is > > this one worldwide? > > > "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it > passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to > English but has no other connection with Greek. Admittedly without looking too hard, I was unable to find anything in Greek that would be the source for the word "babble". The Hebrew is Babel of Bavel (Gen. 11.9) so called because God "balal" ("confused") their languages. According to Gunkel (Genesis, 1910) however, the Cuneiform etymology is "Bab-il" = "God's gate" that itself might be only a Semitic/Babylonian popular etymology for a word which may not even be Semitic in origin. And, I have no idea why geoduck is spelled the way it is and is pronounced gooey-duck. There are certainly a number of American Indian names in Washington and Oregon where the spelling doesn't reflect the pronunciation at all. Larry Horn mentioned that a dictionary (I don't recall which one) listed the word as Salish. I've also seen references that it was originally a Nisqually word, and that it originated in Chinook jargon. allen maberry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:38:42 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:38:42 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021107152545.018d3228@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 3:30 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I would guess it was an attempt to represent the American Indian original, >which may have had either a glottal stop or [x] in the first syllable; both >are common in many AmInd languages. So what was a nonnative speaker to do >when spelling it in English? I'd have guessed "gooeyduck", as it's pronounced, or perhaps "gweduc" (avoiding the folk etymology, and retaining something similar to the Salish original). But I was wondering whence the "geo-", since it's not as if the link to the Greek prefix for "earth" is plausible here. If anything, the relation to "gooey"ness would be more salient (as well as more Salish). L >At 02:38 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >>> Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" >> > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? >> From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 7 20:49:21 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:49:21 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) In-Reply-To: <25.307f5a16.2afc1b3c@aol.com> Message-ID: >... how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is >pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") >came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first >English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then >English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and >no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ .... Hereabouts (near the Youghiogheny) the Youghiogheny River's name is usually pronounced /jOk at geini/, and it's often abbreviated "Yough" /jOk/ ("yock"/"yawk"), occasionally written "Yock". (The Monongahela is called the Mon /mOn/.) Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous historically. I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation (like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot find any authoritative information on this right now. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 20:58:20 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:33 PM -0800 11/7/02, A. Maberry wrote: > > >And, I have no idea why geoduck is spelled the way it is and is pronounced >gooey-duck. There are certainly a number of American Indian names in >Washington and Oregon where the spelling doesn't reflect the pronunciation >at all. >Larry Horn mentioned that a dictionary (I don't recall which one) AHD4 >listed >the word as Salish. I've also seen references that it was originally a >Nisqually word, and that it originated in Chinook jargon. > >allen >maberry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:14:12 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:14:12 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby Message-ID: a recent column tells the following story: In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with his teammates. John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball today. Stephen Redmond, M.D., Morgan Hill Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled correspondent). extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:27:30 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: James A. Landau said: >In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, >mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > >> Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or >> folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima >> facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is >> this one worldwide? > >Gee, I always thought "babble" came from the Tower of Babel legend, but >MWCD10 says "ME babelen, prob. of imit. origin" and dates it as 13th Century. > >"Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it >passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to >English but has no other connection with Greek. > >"Babel" comes from "Babylon"? Unproven, as far as I know, but probably yes. >The Babylonian Gilgamesh cycle includes a version of Noah's flood, from which >we can conclude that the Israelites were familiar with Babylonian legends, or >vice versa, or that the Israelites and the Babylonians drew on a common >source for legends (it doesn't matter which). In other words, the >Israelites, long before the Babylonican conquest, had some familiarity with >Babylonia and its most famous city, Babylon. > Unproven? In the Hebrew Bible, Babylon is /bavel/ (intervocalic spirantization...the earlier form would have been /babel/). There's also a root BL, often reduplicated to BLBL, with meanings associated with mumbling and confusion. My Hebrew dictionaries are all at home, so I can't check how old this root is. But I would think a folk-etymological "just so" story, of the sort the Hebrew Bible is rife with, would depend on the prior existence of such a root. This is a totally separate question from that of how the Mesopotamian place name got its Greek form. I honestly don't remember what the Assyrian or Babylonian forms of the place name were, but it wouldn't surprise me if the -on ending came from Greek. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 21:28:38 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:28:38 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: There is considerable controversy about the pronunciation of the name of the Canadian-turned-American general superintendent of the Hudson's Bay Company who built Fort Vancouver and has become known as the "Father of Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation that most Portlanders use. The name of the major street in Portland is, as far as I know, called only that--I have never heard it called by any other pronunciation (I even remember saying McLouThlin as a kid). However, the folks at Fort Vancouver and the McLoughlin House (as well as one version of the Encyclopedia Americana) say McLouKlin. One native Portlander ranger did admit to me that she has changed to 'K' since she started working for 'The House.' I did some readings to try to find out what the good doctor was called when he was alive and it seems that it was 'k.' How could the pronunciation of one man's name have changed so quickly and extensively? Fritz >Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is >exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous >historically. >I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation >on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the >current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy >with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation >(like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot >find any authoritative information on this right now. ?> Doug Wilson From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Nov 7 21:33:36 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:33:36 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby Message-ID: Ironic that this post about John McGraw should come right now. Just one minute ago I sent a message about John McLoughlin and while looking up his entry in the Encyclopedia Americana and came across John McGraw's, which I naturally read. No mention of any sign language. Fritz >>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 11/07/02 01:14PM >>> a recent column tells the following story: In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with his teammates. John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball today. Stephen Redmond, M.D., Morgan Hill Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled correspondent). extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:50:48 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:50:48 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hasn't our own Peter McGraw written of this pronunciation confusion with ref. to his own name? McGraw/ McGrath/..., as I recall? I suspect the Irish? original had the [x] pronunciation, which changed in English variously to /f/, /th/, or /k/, or was vocalized. Am I on the right track? At 01:28 PM 11/7/2002 -0800, you wrote: >There is considerable controversy about the pronunciation of the name of >the Canadian-turned-American general superintendent of the Hudson's Bay >Company who built Fort Vancouver and has become known as the "Father of >Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only >McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation >that most Portlanders use. The name of the major street in Portland is, >as far as I know, called only that--I have never heard it called by any >other pronunciation (I even remember saying McLouThlin as a kid). However, >the folks at Fort Vancouver and the McLoughlin House (as well as one >version of the Encyclopedia Americana) say McLouKlin. One native >Portlander ranger did admit to me that she has changed to 'K' since she >started working for 'The House.' I did some readings to try to find out >what the good doctor was called when he was alive and it seems that it was >'k.' How could the pronunciation of one man's na! >me have changed so quickly and extensively? >Fritz > > >Some of those named Dougherty use the "Dockerty" pronunciation, which is > >exactly analogous formally (I think) although perhaps not analogous > >historically. > > >I would speculate that the spelling was invented following a pronunciation > >on the order of /jugiogeni/ in some local Amerind language. Possibly the > >current pronunciation originated as a spelling pronunciation by analogy > >with "Dougherty" or some other name, or from a Scots spelling pronunciation > >(like /sOx/ for "sough"). This is just off the top of my head; I cannot > >find any authoritative information on this right now. > >?> Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 7 21:55:45 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:55:45 -0500 Subject: Babel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. . . .) At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: >> >>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the Chaldees" which is >>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > >Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's >convinced about J's true identity. > >larry From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 22:15:02 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:15:02 -0800 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hebrew root BLL, akkad. bal^alu. 1. moisten, mix 2. confound (of languages) [apparently only used once in this sense in Gen 11.9] derived forms: belil, tebel, tevalul, shavlul. Hebrew root BBL {Bavel} akkad. B^ab-ilu "Gate of God". There is a reduplicated Hebrew form bilbel, balbel "disarange" "mix up" but it is Rabbinic not Biblical. There is also a parallel Arabic form balbala "to mix up, confuse" as in tabalbul al-als[macron]an "confusion of languages". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Alice Faber wrote: > > Unproven? In the Hebrew Bible, Babylon is /bavel/ (intervocalic > spirantization...the earlier form would have been /babel/). There's > also a root BL, often reduplicated to BLBL, with meanings associated > with mumbling and confusion. My Hebrew dictionaries are all at home, > so I can't check how old this root is. But I would think a > folk-etymological "just so" story, of the sort the Hebrew Bible is > rife with, would depend on the prior existence of such a root. This > is a totally separate question from that of how the Mesopotamian > place name got its Greek form. I honestly don't remember what the > Assyrian or Babylonian forms of the place name were, but it wouldn't > surprise me if the -on ending came from Greek. > -- > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 7 22:18:10 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 14:18:10 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's certainly how I pronounce it. I don't think I've ever met anyone who use the pronunciation McLouKlin. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: Oregon" --John McLoughlin. For nearly 40 years I have heard almost only McLouFlin (disregard the vowels) and I believe that is the pronunciation that most Portlanders use. From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Nov 7 23:10:33 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:10:33 -0800 Subject: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" Message-ID: FWIW Rush Limbaugh on his radio program today used the phrase "gin up" twice as in "The Democrats tried to gin up the African American vote." (This comment is presented purely as a linguistic note." ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 5:45 AM Subject: Re: evidence for "gen up" rather than "gin up" > Brock Meeks says his usage derives from "gin" rather than "engine" or > "gen"--so if the RAF usage for "gen up" is correct, then we have two similar > phrases with different sources; in a response to an e-mail he writes: > > As I learned it (from my father as a kid) and have always used it during my > writing career, I always took it to be a throwback to the Prohibition Era > days of the 1920s in which people resorted to making Gin, the alcohol, in > their bathtubs. This of course gave rise the term "bathtub gin" but it also > took on new meaning, to "gin up" something, is, to my knowledge, to create > something outside the normal scheme of things. > ________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Thu Nov 7 23:37:24 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:24 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: or why the Shawangunk Mountains are pronounced " Shongum" or why clams in New England are written as Quahogs but pronounced "Quohogs".... ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882) > In a message dated 11/7/02 12:21:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > Does anyone know how this tasty specimen got to be spelled "geoduck" > > while being pronounced "gooeyduck"? > > No, but maybe you could tell me how a river in Pennsylvania whose name is > pronounced /'yuhk @ gein ee/ (that's a hard g) (name rhymes with "Allegheny") > came to be spelled as "Youghiogheny". George Washington was about the first > English speaker to come anywhere near the Youghiogheny valley, and by then > English had for centuries given up creating new spellings with "ough"---and > no other English spelling uses "ough" for /uck/ > > - Jim Landau. From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Nov 7 23:37:59 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 15:37:59 -0800 Subject: from Dear Abby In-Reply-To: <200211072114.gA7LECq20212@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: Separating fact from fancy in baseball lore is often impossible. But this one has more than usual dose of truth to it. According to my copy of _Total Baseball_, 4th ed., 1995, Luther Haden "Dummy" Taylor (b. 1875, d. 1958) played with the NY Giants from 1900-08 (during the '02 season he played 4 games for Cleveland). His career record was 116-106, (.523 pct) and a 2.75 ERA. In 1904 he won 21 games. Only in two seasons (1901 & '02) did he pitch below .500. A respectable record. Taylor was deaf and knew ASL. This much is confirmed. The SF Giants web site says: "Upon assuming the reins of the Giants, McGraw came up with an innovative solution for the problem of what to do with Luther 'Dummy' Taylor, the only deaf-mute person to play in the majors in the 20th century. McGraw made his entire team learn sign language so they could communicate with him, and when they started using the skill in games, the earliest form of 'signs' in baseball." It is plausible and probably likely that McGraw and the team learned some pidgin ASL, rather than gaining fluency in the language. McGraw was a very interesting character. He was fiery and combative and held grudges. There was no 1904 World Series in large part because of McGraw's dislike for the American League president, Ban Johnson. Yet after he retired, he carried around with him a list of all the African-American players he had wanted to recruit but had not been allowed to. His learning ASL would not be out of character, as long as it helped him win ballgames. I did find one amusing story about Taylor signing profanity about an umpire. The umpire noticed and fined Taylor. It turned out that the umpire had a deaf relative and knew enough ASL to understand the gist of Taylor's message. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Arnold Zwicky > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: from Dear Abby > > > a recent column tells the following story: > > In the early 1900s, the New York Giants had a pitcher > naned Luther H. Taylor. He was a deaf mute who was, in > an era of insensitivity, nicknamed "Dummy." Taylor lost > a lot of games due to his inability to communicate with > his teammates. > John McGraw, the manager of the Giants, was under enormous > pressure from the team's owner, then fans and the sportswiters > to trade Taylor. Instead, McGraw required the entire Giant > team to learn American Sign Language. Once that was > accomplished, McGraw used hand signals to lead his team. > That's the origin of the hand signals that are used in baseball > today. > Stephen Redmond, M.D., > Morgan Hill > > Dear Abby thanks dr. redmond for "a fascinating tidbit of > information" (intended to be encouraging to a disabled > correspondent). > > extremely dubious information. but what i'm interested in is > any history of *the story*. has anyone investigated its sources? > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 00:42:55 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:42:55 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021107165446.018ed438@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. >. . .) Harold Bloom, author, editor, and literary critic par excellence (and a member of the Yale faculty since time immemorial) has been arguing since the publication of _The Book of J_ (Grove Wiedenfeld, 1990) that the "J author", generally credited with writing most of the interesting parts of the Old Testament, including the best parts of the Torah (first five books), was a woman in the court of David in the 10th c. BC(E). Whence Jim's "her" and "the woman who" below, I assume. Bloom's move was, to put it mildly, not well received by traditional Biblical scholars. Of course for Bloom these traditional scholars are heirs to the heritage of the "P" writer (or priestly redactor), i.e. the bad guy, the anti-poet. Some see Bloom as attempting to disarm the legions of his feminist critics; if so, it didn't work. (I sat in on a faculty seminar he gave here before the book was published, when he was presenting material that he ended up publishing as _Ruin the Sacred Truths_ (1989) and he was quite consistent in his references to the J author as "she" at the time. But maybe he was just practicing.) larry >At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>> >>>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the >>>Chaldees" which is >>>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when >>>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them >>>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. >> >>Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's >>convinced about J's true identity. >> >>larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 00:47:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:47:14 -0500 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: From "SEITZ IN CHINATOWN" on the American Periodical Series online, in FRANK LESLIE'S POPULAR MONTHLY, May 1893, pg. 0_018: The chief items on the bill of fare furnished by the leading Mott Street establishments can be catalogued thus: Chow Swan Toy--Beef fried with sour cabbage. Chow Mien--Fried vermicelli with strips of pork, celery, onions and spices. Ob Gwan Lob Chong--Sausages made of duck livers and oysters. Ham Dan--Twenty-year-old ducks' eggs in salt. Han Yu--Ten-year-old salt shad. Loong Ah Bo Toy--Dragon-teeth white cabbage. Boo Ob--Boned Duck, stuffed with chestnuts, boiled in wine. Chow Kai Pien--Fried strips of chicken with mushrooms and celery. Chow Ob Jung--Boned ducks' feet boiled and then fried, served with mushrooms and sweetened liquor. Chow Kai Goot--Fried spring chicken. Chow Yu Pien--Sliced fish fried, served with water nuts and bamboo shoots. Chow Pok Ob--Fried pigeon served with mushrooms and celery. Do Foo Bow Yu--Fish stewed in liquor with extract of bean, orange peeling and mushrooms. Chow Chop Swang--Strips of pork, chicken livers and gizzards, and vegetables. Chow Dan--Egg Omelets, a la Chinoise. WIth every dish on the table is supplied a little bowl of sooy, the universal Chinese sauce. It fits everything and is used with everything. (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. When in New York, see the revival of Rodgers & Hammerstein's THE FLOWER DRUM SONG. That's the only place you'll find "chop suey" now--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 00:54:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:54:01 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." A. Murie From self at TOWSE.COM Fri Nov 8 00:55:20 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:55:20 -0800 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. When in New York, see the revival of Rodgers & Hammerstein's THE FLOWER DRUM SONG. That's the only place you'll find "chop suey" now--ed.) Pulldown menu in left sidebar set to Restaurants (Beta) Search: chop suey 140 hits! Cool tool if you're looking for foodie stuff, like which restaurants in San Francisco have foie gras on the menu. Sal -- 3000+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:27:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:27:17 EST Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 2:32:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's > convinced about J's true identity. Only you, so far. Are you interested in my theory that J and CH were the same person, namely King David's first wife Michal? Seriously: Richard Elliott Friedman _Who Wrote the Bible?_ New York: Harper and Row, 1987, ISBN 0-06-097214-9. page 86: "...the J stories are, on the whole, much more concerned with women and much more sensitive to women than are the E stories. There really is nothing in E to compare with the J story of Tamar in Genesis 38. It is not just that the woman Tamar figures in an important way in the story. It is that the story is sympathetic to a wrong done to this woman...This does not make [J] a woman. But it does mean that we cannot by any means be quick to think of [J] as a man." Note that Friedman wrote this ten years before Bloom's "The Book of J" was published. I have never read Bloom and I have no idea whether Bloom got the idea from Friedman. In fact, it is not possible to tell whether Friedman had the idea on his own or was citing an idea that had been around for a while. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:46:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:46:47 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of > Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. > Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." The Lockheed Corporation was founded in 1913 by the brothers Malcolm and Allan Loughead. The spelling was deliberately changed to "Lockheed", probably so customers would know how to pronounce the name of the company. This seems to imply that "Loughead" was pronounced /lock heed/. By the way, the Loughead brothers' first plane was called the "Model G" to hide the fact that it was their first design effort. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 01:49:14 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:49:14 EST Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:49:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > WIth every dish on the table is supplied a little bowl of sooy, the > universal Chinese sauce. It fits everything and is used with everything. > > (I haven't found a "chop suey" to beat my 1885. I think "sooy" refers to soy sauce rather than to chop suey. Also either "chow mien" has undergone a pronunciation shift in English from /myen/ to /mein/ or your source made a spelling error. - Jim Landau From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Nov 8 02:25:49 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:25:49 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: I wonder how Bloom would respond to the work of Richard Davies (In Search of Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty. The Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism produced the HB. Different schools may have sharee some of the ideologies of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools don't line up closely with JEDP. The Minimalists claim that the HB was written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a history out of which a nation could form. It's pretty obvious what some of the controversy over the Minimalist Hypothesis is about. It's safe to say that the field of biblical scholarship is deeply divided over Minimalist claims. However, the Minimalists pretty much moot the question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. Herb Stahlke > At 4:55 PM -0500 11/7/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >I've never heard this authorship story. Enlighten us! (Off-topic, I know. > >. . .) > > Harold Bloom, author, editor, and literary critic par excellence (and > a member of the Yale faculty since time immemorial) has been arguing > since the publication of _The Book of J_ (Grove Wiedenfeld, 1990) > that the "J author", generally credited with writing most of the > interesting parts of the Old Testament, including the best parts of > the Torah (first five books), was a woman in the court of David in > the 10th c. BC(E). Whence Jim's "her" and "the woman who" below, I > assume. Bloom's move was, to put it mildly, not well received by > traditional Biblical scholars. Of course for Bloom these traditional > scholars are heirs to the heritage of the "P" writer (or priestly > redactor), i.e. the bad guy, the anti-poet. Some see Bloom as > attempting to disarm the legions of his feminist critics; if so, it > didn't work. (I sat in on a faculty seminar he gave here before the > book was published, when he was presenting material that he ended up > publishing as _Ruin the Sacred Truths_ (1989) and he was quite > consistent in his references to the J author as "she" at the time. > But maybe he was just practicing.) > > larry > > >At 02:32 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >>At 2:26 PM -0500 11/7/02, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> > >>>Note that Abraham is supposed to have come from "Ur of the > >>>Chaldees" which is > >>>in Babylonia. Also J (the woman who wrote the Adam and Eve story) when > >>>mentioning the four rivers of Eden, feels the need to describe three of them > >>>but assumes her audience knows what the Euphrates is. > >> > >>Ah, Jim is a (Harold) Bloomian! I wonder how many others he's > >>convinced about J's true identity. > >> > >>larry > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 03:01:21 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 19:01:21 -0800 Subject: Bha Message-ID: A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used to/between females? Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 03:07:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:07:25 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) In-Reply-To: <004d01c286ce$279730c0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: At 9:25 PM -0500 11/7/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >I wonder how Bloom would respond to the work of Richard Davies (In Search of >Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist >School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or >documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of >the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going >back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty. The >Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism >produced the HB. Different schools may have sharee some of the ideologies >of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools >don't line up closely with JEDP. The Minimalists claim that the HB was >written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a >history out of which a nation could form. It's pretty obvious what some of >the controversy over the Minimalist Hypothesis is about. It's safe to say >that the field of biblical scholarship is deeply divided over Minimalist >claims. However, the Minimalists pretty much moot the question of J's >gender since there would likely have been no J. > >Herb Stahlke > I'm just guessing here, but I think some of that history might be what Bloom and others would attribute to P (for 'priest'). As for the rest, yes, there's a lot of resistance to Bloom (and translator/co-author David Rosenberg)'s claim about the J writer. But it's quite fascinating stuff, whether or not you get convinced. L From douglas at NB.NET Fri Nov 8 04:27:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:27:01 -0500 Subject: "Chow Mien" and more (1893) In-Reply-To: <72.258816f8.2afc721a@aol.com> Message-ID: >... either "chow mien" has undergone a pronunciation shift in English from >/myen/ to /mein/ or your source made a spelling error. I think the "mein" is originally what would now usually be transcribed in 'Mandarin' "mian" (4th tone), meaning "flour" (thus "noodle"); an earlier transcription (Wade-Giles) used "mien" and it sounds like "myen" /mjEn/ to me. This could be corrupted to sound like English "main"/"mane" /mein/ maybe. Other 'dialects' have something similar, and it seems to be close to the earlier Chinese pronunciation. However the Cantonese equivalent seems to be "min" (6th tone), which sounds to me like /miin/ or English "mean"/"mien". One might naively speculate that this might be the first-heard form in the US. [The "chow"/"chao" is /tSaw/ or /tsaw/ to my Anglophone ear in various 'dialects'.] In English, written "mien" would seem more felicitous than "mein" in either case. [Since "chao mian" is still conventional for "fried noodles" in Chinese (at least on Chinese-language menus in the US and elsewhere), I think we now see or will soon see a change (back?) to a pronunciation like /tSaw mjEn/ at least within a certain segment of the Anglophone population.] Once somebody 'authoritative' started writing "mein" (even if erroneously) the die would be cast, given the US ignorance of Chinese (even more profound in 1893 than now perhaps). It seems to me that the typical Chi-Am restaurateur in 1893 may not have been highly literate in Chinese or English. The spelling "mein" supports the pronunciation /mein/ by analogy with "rein", "vein", "skein". Conceivably somebody reasoned that "me" /mi/ + "in" /In/ = "mein" would be a good English spelling for the Chinese word. Incidentally, the written character for this "mian" apparently has been officially replaced (some might say "simplified") in the PRC with the common character for "face" which has the same pronunciation ... so now the character does double duty, for "face" and "flour"/"noodle". [So much for the popular notion that the Chinese 'logographic' writing system is valuable for distinguishing between homophones. (^_^)] -- Doug Wilson From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET Fri Nov 8 04:42:58 2002 From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:42:58 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882) Message-ID: "Cohog" is the pronunciation that I'm familiar with. I've never heard a quahog called a "quohog." Phil Cleary Boston, MA From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Nov 8 04:51:48 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:51:48 -0800 Subject: Bha Message-ID: benjamin barrett: >A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me >for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an >aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and >Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used >to/between females? there are several variants to be heard in american english. especially in the south, you can hear an ingressive b. all over the place, you can hear a prenasalized mb (similarly, prenasalized Nk in "o.k."). i've never heard an aspirated (that is, murmured) b in "bye". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Nov 8 14:09:36 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 06:09:36 -0800 Subject: Bha In-Reply-To: <200211080451.gA84pm625989@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I hear the mba(i) with a weak i at the end a lot, too. I think I hear this from females as well as males. I'll watch more carefully to determine if the m really is missing. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Arnold Zwicky Sent: Thursday, 07 November, 2002 20:52 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bha benjamin barrett: >A couple years ago, I started noticing males saying bha(i) to me >for (good) bye on the phone. The initial sound sounds like an >aspirated b. I've heard this from Kansans, Seattlites and >Californians. Has anyone else noticed this? Also, is it used >to/between females? there are several variants to be heard in american english. especially in the south, you can hear an ingressive b. all over the place, you can hear a prenasalized mb (similarly, prenasalized Nk in "o.k."). i've never heard an aspirated (that is, murmured) b in "bye". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Nov 8 14:46:41 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:46:41 -0600 Subject: Being Googled Message-ID: I thought the DogPile John Smith would do it. Of course you guys don't know me personally, but half the things I say are tongue in cheek or elsewhere. I didn't think a wink would do it. Considered a :{0} though. :) always Lesa Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > #> #On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Lesa Dill wrote: > #> #Why isn't it "Yahoo! John >Smith" or "DogPile John Smith"? > #> # > #> #I don't know. > #> > #> How about potential confusion, plus what I believe I have read to be > #> Google's preeminence in the amount of use it gets? > > [...] > > #Jokes folks. Gees. Is there an emoticon for sarcasm? I actually like > #DogPile John Smith myself. > > There's always the wink ;-) . > > The reason for emoticons is that on the Net, nobody can hear your tone > of voice or see your facial expression or body language. Your question > sounded perfectly straightforward to me, and evidently to Bethany, too. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Fri Nov 8 14:56:29 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:56:29 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing Farv by the announcers. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin > In a message dated 11/07/2002 7:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > > ISTM I used to hear the name of Peter Lougheed, erstwhile premier of > > Alberta, pronounced "Lockheed" -- like the airplane mfr. -- on CBC. > > Sometimes also pronounced "La-heed." > > The Lockheed Corporation was founded in 1913 by the brothers Malcolm and > Allan Loughead. The spelling was deliberately changed to "Lockheed", > probably so customers would know how to pronounce the name of the company. > This seems to imply that "Loughead" was pronounced /lock heed/. > > By the way, the Loughead brothers' first plane was called the "Model G" to > hide the fact that it was their first design effort. > > - Jim Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:19:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:19:39 -0500 Subject: Baseball hand-signs already in 1870s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:24 PM -0600 9/23/09, Gerald Cohen wrote: >>From: "Peter Morris" >>Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:02:52 -0500 >>Subject: RE: [19cBB] origin of baseball signs >> >>It's true that McGraw's Giants tried communicating via sign language for a >>brief time. But signs were being used in baseball as early as the mid-1870s >>and were very common by the 1880s. So the idea that this was the earliest >>use of signs is absurd. Nor was Taylor the only deaf-mute to play in the >>majors in the twentieth century -- Deegan, Hoy, ... Ah, Dummy Hoy. That's the one that was on the tip of my typing finger. The others I hadn't heard of; wonder how many of them were "Dummy X". Times have certainly changed. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:26:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <049801c28737$2a41c6a0$37d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: >Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing >Farv by the announcers. > >Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Nov 8 15:43:49 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:43:49 -0500 Subject: Bha Message-ID: I've heard it too, but with a nasal onset "MmmBhai" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Nov 8 15:55:06 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:55:06 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:05:13 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:05:13 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 11/08/02 07:55AM >>> Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 8 16:05:54 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:05:54 -0800 Subject: Bha In-Reply-To: <003601c2873d$a2df6760$90b89b3f@db> Message-ID: This is similar to how my wife imitates the admins at work: "mmhmVaiVai." (Where the V is really bilabial, not labiodental.) This phrase is usually interpreted as a kiss off, and not a normal goodbye. Ed --- David Bergdahl wrote: > I've heard it too, but with a nasal onset "MmmBhai" > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er > nicht" > --Albert Einstein __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:08:31 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:08:31 -0800 Subject: Baseball hand-signs already in 1870s Message-ID: I think this raises the question of when the word 'dumb' become (near?) synonomous with 'stupid' instead of simply unable to speak. Fritz Ah, Dummy Hoy. That's the one that was on the tip of my typing finger. The others I hadn't heard of; wonder how many of them were "Dummy X". Times have certainly changed. larry From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Nov 8 16:08:27 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:08:27 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am a native Seattlite and we have joked about pooeyallup since at least the early 80's. It's an odd sounding word with a strange spelling that just begs to be tinkered with. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of FRITZ JUENGLING Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:05 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 11/08/02 07:55AM >>> Yesterday Larry asked about the spelling of geoduck which would be a very poor rendering of the pronunciation 'gooey-duck'. Well, I don't have an answer but upon reflection but something similar has happened in the Washington place name Puyallup, which pronounced PyuAllup not *PuYAllup or *PUyallup, although the latter two might be expected from the spelling. The place is named for the Puyallup Indians. The name was variously said to mean "shadow from the dense shade of the forest" or was given to the tribe because they were so generous, "pough" = "to pile up, to add more" and "allup" means "people". (cf. Mazama magazine, Dec. 1918, p. 251) If the latter is true, Puyallup is the only place name in the state which contains the element -allup "people". allen maberry at u.washington.edu From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 8 16:41:02 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:41:02 -0500 Subject: Babel and geoduck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, A. Maberry wrote: #On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # #> In a message dated 11/7/02 10:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, #> mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: #> #> > Is "babble" < Greek? How about "Babel" in Genesis, as an assonance or #> > folk etymology with (the city-name we know as) "Babylon"? The prima #> > facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is #> > this one worldwide? #> #> #> "Babble" from Greek---if you assume it's from the Tower of Babel, then it #> passed through the Greek-language Septuagint on its way from Hebrew to #> English but has no other connection with Greek. #Admittedly without looking too hard, I was unable to find anything in #Greek that would be the source for the word "babble". The Hebrew is Babel #of Bavel (Gen. 11.9) so called because God "balal" ("confused") their #languages. According to Gunkel (Genesis, 1910) however, the Cuneiform #etymology is "Bab-il" = "God's gate" that itself might be only a #Semitic/Babylonian popular etymology for a word which may not even be #Semitic in origin. My point being that that word and Gk "barbar-" may well have been of independent origins... and then so might "Berber". -- Mark A. Mandel From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Nov 8 16:45:12 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 08:45:12 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: Back in the early 90's the MN Twins and North Stars had two players whose name were spelled the same--Gagne. THe North Stars' guy pronounced his name something like GAHN-yay. Greg Gagne of the Twins was always GAG-nee Fritz >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 11/08/02 07:26AM >>> At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: >Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing >Farv by the announcers. > >Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Nov 8 18:11:16 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:11:16 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 18:50:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 13:50:58 -0500 Subject: Dungeon Doll; O.T. Yale Cafeteria gets top rating Message-ID: DUNGEON DOLL--On CNN.com right now. Also called "Bondage Barbie." A judge said it's legal, but it's probably sick. --, INTERRUPTED--I'm seeing this in the Winona Ryder stories, but also in other stories. Today's NEW YORK TIMES has "Life, Unplugged." Today's WALL STREET JOURNAL has "Retailers, Interrupted." HARDLINES--"Sectors to really look out for include what retail analysts call the 'hardlines,' things like big-ticket items and consumer electronics." WALL STREET JOURNAL, 8 November 2002, pg. C1, col. 1. O.T.: YALE CAFETERIA--The Weekend WSJ "Phi Beta Cafeteria" story is a must-read. Yale gets four stars. "'If I were a kid, I wouldn't ever leave this place,' said our expert, Glenn Harris from New York's Jane restaurant." Larry Horn and Fred Shapiro never had it so good! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 8 19:04:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:04:31 -0500 Subject: Yale Cafeteria gets top rating In-Reply-To: <307FE403.47DA3131.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:50 PM -0500 11/8/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >O.T.: YALE CAFETERIA--The Weekend WSJ "Phi Beta Cafeteria" story is >a must-read. Yale gets four stars. "'If I were a kid, I wouldn't >ever leave this place,' said our expert, Glenn Harris from New >York's Jane restaurant." Larry Horn and Fred Shapiro never had it >so good! I don't know how Fred feels, but it makes me wonder about the competition... L From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 8 19:37:17 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:17 -0500 Subject: Earliest use of "ethnic cleansing" Message-ID: > > I no longer need the post mentioned below. The Foreign Affairs article from > > which it quotes (which is what I really wanted) is available via LexisNexis. > > If it sheds any light on the term's use, would you care to share it > with us? I'd be happy to. The article, just to be clear, is called "A Brief History of Ethnic Cleansing" and it appeared in the Summer 1993 issue of _Foreign Affairs_. Here are some excerpts that may or may not be light-shedding: -------------------------- In 1530 the Confession of Augsburg had explicitly laid down the principle of religious homogeneity as the basis of political order. Cuius regio, eius religio meant in effect that medieval states had begun to shape an orthodox citizenry. Thus by revoking the Edict of Nantes in 1685, France indeed initiated a process of "self-cleansing," as thousands of Protestant Huguenots fled once denied freedom of worship. In this way, the Confession can be considered the ideological cornerstone of modern cleansing, a process only possible in centralized, absolutist states capable of enforcing "purity." -------------------------- Twentieth-century communist ideology introduced yet another type of cleansing, that of economic class. The destruction of propertied classes in Stalinist Russia or Maoist China bore all the markings, including vocabulary, of an "ethnic" cleansing. Marx applied Christian rejection of the Jew, once based on religion but during his time transformed into racialism, to class analysis and the elimination of certain "parasitic" groups. In this way, the patterns of "self-cleansing" established in the Middle Ages had returned yet again, this time manifested in the modern totalitarian state's own mechanism for ensuring "purity," the purge. -------------------------- Only about fifty years ago -- that is within the lifetime of an individual -- Croatian nationalists carried out massacres of Serb civilians in a Nazi puppet state comprising most of today's Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Ustashi, as these nationalists were known, regarded Croatia's more than two million Serbs as a threat to national integrity. The Croatian minister of education, for example, speaking at a banquet in June 1941, remarked that "one-third of the Serbs we shall kill, another we shall deport and the last we shall force to embrace the Roman Catholic religion and thus meld them into Croats." This policy was officially enunciated later the same month by the governor of western Bosnia, Viktor Gutich. In a speech at Banya Luka, Gutich urged that the city, and all of Croatia, be "thoroughly cleansed of Serbian dirt." From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 8 19:37:42 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:37:42 -0500 Subject: First use of "gated community" Message-ID: I'm trying to track down the earliest known use of the phrase "gated community." I have a citation from The New York Times on January 26, 1979. However, I also found the following in a US News & World Report article: "Private streets and gated communities may well have been invented in St. Louis--they were known to exist here as early as the 1850s." --"A tourist in my own town," US News & World Report, November 30, 1998 I know this doesn't necessarily mean the phrase "gated community" was around in the 1850s, but it got me thinking that the phrase might be much older than 1979. Any ideas? Thanks. Paul From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 8 20:20:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:20:54 EST Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/02 9:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > the work of Richard Davies (In Search of > Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist > School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or > documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of > the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going > back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty[, the] > Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism > produced the HB. The Minimalists claim that the HB was > written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a > history out of which a nation could form. There must be more to the Minimalist School than you describe. The numerous inconsistencies, changes in tone, changes in wording, and repeated accounts argue that the Old Testament is a paste-up of pieces of text from a large number of sources, ranging from the Gilgamesh legend (Noah's Flood) to Akhnaton (one of the psalms) to various historical accounts. Various bits and pieces of the history in the Old Testament can be confirmed from contemporary written sources or archeology. Let's assume that the Old Testament was compiled by a Redactor, or a Redaction Committee, in post-Exilic accounts. Many proponents of JEPD theories will agree to that, e.g. Friedman whom I quoted earlier identifes Ezra as the Redactor. What the Redactor, or Redaction Committee, used was a large accumulation of accounts of varying origins, many of which had to have been created before the Exile and faithfully transmitted (if oral) or available in written copies (if written) since pre-Exilic times. Either your description is incomplete or the Minimalists disagree with everything I have written in the last two paragraphs. I suspect the former. > Different schools may have share[d] some of the ideologies > of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools > don't line up closely with JEDP. the Minimalists pretty much moot the > question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. There must have been schools which disagreed (e.g. Hillel and Shammai of a slightly later era) and which don't line up with JEDP, but that misses the point. It is not difficult to pick out that part of the Pentateuch which uses certain word choices, in particular the use of "JHVH" for the name of the Deity (hence "Jahvist" or "J" for the postulated author). This is the "J Document". Anyone who disagrees with the JEDP hypothesis, as you imply the Minimalists do, has to explain why it is possible to split out the Pentateuch so neatly into J, E, D, and P. Now suppose we admit to the existence of a J Document. Could this document have been created in post-Exilic times? Yes, it could have been. (If so, it still used at least one pre-Exilic source, namely the Gilgamesh cycle.) However, the J Document still deals sympathetically with women in a way E, D, P, and much of the rest of the Old Testament does not. So we still have to deal with the idea that J was a woman (or if J was a committee, that it had women on it.) Perhaps I misunderstand the Minimalists (and by the way, what is it that they are minimalizing?) - Jim Landau From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Nov 8 23:10:54 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:10:54 -0500 Subject: the J author (was: Babel) Message-ID: Jim, You're right on both counts. There's much more to the minimalist school than I described and they disagree with most of what you're representing, essentially accurately, as the documentary hypothesis. The name, BTW, was given to them by their critics, I think because of the way scholars like Davies and other minimalize the historical content of the HB. However, going into a lot of detail on the various debates would go pretty far afield even for this list, and so instead I'll refer you to a pretty good web site that lays out nicely the ideas, the arguments, and the major proponents. http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0170Minimalism.html Herb Stahlke > In a message dated 11/7/02 9:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > > > the work of Richard Davies (In Search of > > Ancient Israel) and others of what has come to be called the Minimalist > > School. This group holds that there is no evidence, archeological or > > documentary, outside the Hebrew Bible for a Davidic kingdom or for most of > > the historical claims of the HB. Rather than a documentary hypothesis going > > back perhaps 8 to 10 centuries before the Hasmonean Dynasty[, the] > > Minimalists claim that in the post-Babylonian period schools of Judaism > > produced the HB. The Minimalists claim that the HB was > > written between about 400 and 100 and did not report but rather created a > > history out of which a nation could form. > > There must be more to the Minimalist School than you describe. The numerous > inconsistencies, changes in tone, changes in wording, and repeated accounts > argue that the Old Testament is a paste-up of pieces of text from a large > number of sources, ranging from the Gilgamesh legend (Noah's Flood) to > Akhnaton (one of the psalms) to various historical accounts. Various bits > and pieces of the history in the Old Testament can be confirmed from > contemporary written sources or archeology. > > Let's assume that the Old Testament was compiled by a Redactor, or a > Redaction Committee, in post-Exilic accounts. Many proponents of JEPD > theories will agree to that, e.g. Friedman whom I quoted earlier identifes > Ezra as the Redactor. What the Redactor, or Redaction Committee, used was a > large accumulation of accounts of varying origins, many of which had to have > been created before the Exile and faithfully transmitted (if oral) or > available in written copies (if written) since pre-Exilic times. > > Either your description is incomplete or the Minimalists disagree with > everything I have written in the last two paragraphs. I suspect the former. > > > > > Different schools may have share[d] some of the ideologies > > of the authors assumed under the documentary hypothesis, but the schools > > don't line up closely with JEDP. the Minimalists pretty much moot > the > > question of J's gender since there would likely have been no J. > > There must have been schools which disagreed (e.g. Hillel and Shammai of a > slightly later era) and which don't line up with JEDP, but that misses the > point. It is not difficult to pick out that part of the Pentateuch which > uses certain word choices, in particular the use of "JHVH" for the name of > the Deity (hence "Jahvist" or "J" for the postulated author). This is the "J > Document". Anyone who disagrees with the JEDP hypothesis, as you imply the > Minimalists do, has to explain why it is possible to split out the Pentateuch > so neatly into J, E, D, and P. > > Now suppose we admit to the existence of a J Document. Could this document > have been created in post-Exilic times? Yes, it could have been. (If so, it > still used at least one pre-Exilic source, namely the Gilgamesh cycle.) > However, the J Document still deals sympathetically with women in a way E, D, > P, and much of the rest of the Old Testament does not. So we still have to > deal with the idea that J was a woman (or if J was a committee, that it had > women on it.) > > Perhaps I misunderstand the Minimalists (and by the way, what is it that they > are minimalizing?) > > - Jim Landau > From jpparker at ISERV.NET Fri Nov 8 23:53:47 2002 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane parker) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:53:47 -0500 Subject: Tenderize In-Reply-To: <200211080451.gA84pm625989@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: on 11/7/02 afternoon todd munt show a marketing type guy used the word *tenderize* to discribe influencing panhellenic group members to moderate binge drinking via some online/telephone service. I have never heard of this usage. I would like to know where on the web do I go see the most complete list of meanings for a word etc. thank you jane p parker > From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Nov 9 00:20:07 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:20:07 -0600 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: It may be partially explained by the fact that Puyallup has a heavy bedroom presence from adjacent Ft. Lewis and McChord AFB. Both the parents and their neighbors may well not have been native there. I've been amused by the spelling of given names and have concluded that it seems most likely that the parents didn't spell well.. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" Just 10 minutes ago I had a student in my room and somehow this town came up in conversation. She said her family was from 'pew-YAllup.' I had never heard that before and asked her to repeat it, and she clearly said pew-YAllup. I didn't get a chance to press her further, but maybe she has just been gone from there for so long that she uses her own pronunciation. But that does seem a bit odd--she would surely have heard the word spoken by her parents. Fritz From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 00:33:52 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:33:52 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: that could be it! Fritz > It may be partially explained by the fact that Puyallup has a heavy bedroom > presence from adjacent Ft. Lewis and McChord AFB. Both the parents and > their neighbors may well not have been native there. > > I've been amused by the spelling of given names and have concluded that it > seems most likely that the parents didn't spell well.. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 02:37:20 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:37:20 EST Subject: Chat room Message-ID: In a message dated 10/13/2002 1:56:25 PM, JJJRLandau at AOL.COM writes: << According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". - Jim Landau (who thought he had joined a mailing list) >> There is a great deal of empirical evidence in support of this theory, imho. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 02:50:18 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:50:18 EST Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? I wonder how this happened--or am I missing something? From Friolly at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 03:07:59 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:07:59 EST Subject: Geoduck (1882) origin Message-ID: Here's what Mathews has to say in the DA page 690: No doubt from a Nisqualli Indian term meaning "dig deep." See Webster s.v. _gweduc_. In _Natural History_. April 1948, 190, the name is said to be based on that of a certain John F. Gowey. The pronunciation given here is the one said to be correct on p. 163 of the magazine cited, but _Cent. Supp., s.v. goeduk_, has ['goid^k]. Of course, this still does not answer the question of why it is spelled as it is. Fritz Juengling From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 9 03:56:48 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:56:48 -0500 Subject: Babel (was Re: Dutch Treat (1885)) In-Reply-To: <140.2323f84.2afc1882@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #> The prima #> facie evidence for onomatopoeia seems fairly good. How widespread is #> this one worldwide? # #You may be right about onomatopoeia but your suggested evidence is tricky. #If "babble" occurs in a number of languages, then it is probably due to the #Book of Genesis, which is known worldwide. That depends on a whole lot of things. F'rinstance, if (and I have no idea) Sanskrit contains a word like "babble" and meaning about the same, it is probably not from a Biblical source. I don't KNOW about any of this; I was suggesting an alternative origin for "Berber" to the "barbaros" source that someone (sorry, don't remember who) posited, and pointing to a possible line of inquiry. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Nov 9 03:52:56 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:52:56 -0500 Subject: Sexy "th" Message-ID: There is a phenomenon I have noticed for years, sort out of the corner of my mind. Most people form the "th" sounds by placing the tip of the tongue against the back of the teeth. As I talk through it, it can be the upper teeth or the upper and lower teeth together. Occasionally, though, I notice people making the sound by extending the tongue beyond the teeth, sticking it out slightly, visibly. Here's the MCP part. I have noticed this only in women, and particularly attractive women, more particularly women who have an investment in their attractiveness. Perhaps it is selective observation -- I may look more closely at attractive women. In fact, I know I do. But I have never observed this in men. The physical pronunciation characteristics, that is, not the part about looking at attractive women. In fact, I think I noticed this first in beauty contest winners being interviewed, and I think there may be a higher incidence in this unique cohort. Watch them say, "Thank you" (which they say a lot). The tongue very often protrudes. Is this manner of pronouncing the "TH' sounds specific to women? Has anyone observed it in men? D From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Nov 9 05:35:10 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:35:10 -0800 Subject: Sexy "th" Message-ID: duane campbell asks about actually (protruding) interdental theta in english. somewhere peter ladefoged suggests that this is a specifically american variant, and he has a photo of a man with this sort of production. he'd be the person to ask, certainly. i myself have this variant, but i suppose i fall under the gay exemption clause. but my guess is it's not sex-linked. arnold From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 9 06:30:41 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:30:41 -0500 Subject: "Dutchman" Message-ID: John Landau brought up this word, meaning in stagecraft "a strip of cloth soaked in size that is used to cover joints and gaps in the stage set, and to apply same," and generally (beyond the stage) as "a device for hiding or counteracting structural defects." I found confirmation of the first at one of the online glossaries, which defined it somewhat more specifically as, "tape or material used to cover the seams between flats, prior to painting." I questioned a stage-manager friend, who confirms the term as I found it online and says that, "It can be a verb also, as in, 'Those two flats need to be dutchmanned'." He adds that the word is "not used much anymore." I also queried a filmmaker friend. No use of the term in that field, but he volunteers that, in another use of the word "dutch" to denote things not quite regular, odd camera slants used in some films have been referred to as "dutch angles." This term, too, seems not to be in much current use. No one had any ideas as to origin. --DS From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sat Nov 9 11:09:54 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:09:54 +0100 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: James McDonald, A Dictionary of Obscenity, Taboo and Euphemism, (Sphere Books Ltd, Penguin, 1988) has the following on MERKIN: "_A pubic wig_. These items still exist, although they are not so much in demand as they were in previous centuries. They were especially popular when the usual treatment for venereal disease involved shaving off the pubic hair. The word is a variation of _Malkin_. Though it is now little used, is was a common female name for over a thousand years. Although the word is not as well known as it once was, it is far from obsolete. In the film _Dr Strangelove_ the name of the president of the USA was chosen with some care; he was called _Merkin Muffley_." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 3:50 AM Subject: MERKIN in the OED > I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History > of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is > 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in > Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that > a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. > > Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? > > I wonder how this happened--or am I missing something? > From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Nov 9 12:38:16 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:38:16 -0000 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: > Did they even have blow-up dolls in the 17th century? Possibly not, but they seem to have done in the Middle East. Thus the OED has: 1886 R. F. Burton tr. Arabian Nights' Entertainments X. 239 For the use of men they have the 'merkin', a heart-shaped article of thin skin stuffed with cotton and slit with an artificial vagina There is also this recent variant: 1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she is a lesbian Jonathon Green From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Nov 9 14:02:57 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:02:57 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When the redoubtable "Dandy" Don Merideth was a Monday Night Football regular, he noted that Danny Abramowicz had just been featured in a play. Don stumbled and then called him "Danny Alphabets." My personal favorite. dInIs At 9:56 AM -0500 11/8/02, Robert Fitzke wrote: Does anyone know exactly how Bret Favre pronounces his name? I keep hearing Farv by the announcers. Bob Farv. There's a nice take-off on the orthography/pronunciation mismatch in the movie "There's Something About Mary". Ben Stiller (I think, or maybe it was the other guy) pronounces it something like "farv..........r". Lots of athletes have similar mismatches. Another one that comes to mind is the tennis player Malivai Washington, whose first name is pronounced as though it were spelled "Malivia". Probably a lot of non-athletes too, but I don't know as many of their names. larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Nov 9 14:11:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:11:31 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <200211081811.gA8IBGF10967@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: I'm with you arnold; if I hadn'a heard it, I'da said /piKAbo/ or even /pIKAbo/ (caps = stressed syllable except for /I/, the vowel of HIT). dInIs i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. arnold -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 9 17:51:49 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:51:49 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <10e.19e3313b.2afdd1ea@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 09:50:18PM -0500, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > I checked the OED online entry for MERKIN today for an exercise in my History > of English class and was puzzled as to why the definition that is given is > 'artificial vagina'. The cites--from the delightful 1660 want-ad ("Lost in > Covent Garden, One Merkin") to the entry from the 1970s clearly indicate that > a MERKIN is hair, not simulated flesh. The main definition is, in fact, artificial hair for the female genitalia. the 'artificial vagina' sense is given after an "Also", and is less common, but it exists; the R. F. Burton example attests it. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 18:34:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:34:05 -0500 Subject: Windy City (17 June 1883); CINCY ENQUIRER baseball (1883) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress. It's closed on Monday, so I thought I'd check for a "Windy City" and baseball items in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. I'd found an ENQUIRER "Windy City" citation, reprinted in the NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE, from October 1883. WINDY CITY 17 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 2: WHILE the failure of McGeoch in Chicago yesterday created something of a pnaic in the Windy City by the lake and other speculative villages, all was serene in Cincinnati. THEY'RE OFF! 17 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 5: Crowds pressed into Sheepshead race-course to-day after the cry "They're off!" arose from 10,000 voices when the horses started in the first race. SACRIFICE HIT 11 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: In a communication to American SPorts correspondent is thus snesibly answered on the subject of the much-talked-of sacrifice hits... WHITEWASH 10 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4: THEIR FIRST WHITEWASH. (3-0 score--ed.) ELECTRIC LIGHTS 2 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: BASE BALL BY ELECTRIC LIGHT. SPECIAL DISPATCH TO THE ENQUIRER. FORT WAYNE, IND., June 1--THis evening the second test of playing base-ball by electric light was made on the local grounds in the presence of quite a number of persons, and proved quite a success. UMPIRE MASK 27 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 10, col. 3: THIS is the way a New York paper roasts an association umpire: "What on earth makes Kelly wear a mask while umpiring? It would be impossible to spoil that mug of his, even if his breath did fail to change the course of the ball, which is hardly probable." JONAH 25 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 5: ARE brass-bands "Jonahs?" (Many other hits for "Jonah"--ed.) DAISY 20 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 11, col. 6: In the third inning McCormick made a daisy three-bagger. PONY TEAM 19 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 6: The fact that several of the directors have been out once or twice this week watching the "pony" team practice, and have requested Welhe to play right, seemed to indicate that somebody would get a vacation. GOOSE EGG 18 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 2: "A Michigan goose-egg, laid by a Michigan goose and sent by a Michigander."--Boston Globe. (7-0 score in Chicago-Detroit game--ed.) SLUGGING 17 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4: A GOOD SLUGGING GAME. MUFF 9 May 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: Maccius, their second man at the bat in this inning, was given first on Maculiar's muff of his fly. (I don't have Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY here at the LOC to check these terms, but I thought I'd record them now--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 20:04:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:04:58 -0500 Subject: Aku, Mahimahi (1836); Scampo (1890) Message-ID: MAHIMAHI A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE by Lorrin Andrews Lahainaluna: Press of the High School 1836 A classic book. I was looking for "tuna." There's a lot more here, but I'll torch DARE and OED on just "aku" and "mahimahi." Pg. 8: A-KU, _s._ a species of fish called boneta. Pg. 89: LU-A, _s._ a pit, a hole, a grave, den. (...) LU-AU, _s._ the petal of a plant, boiled herbs. Pg. 93: MA-HI-MA-HI, _s._ a species of fish. Pg. 120: PO-I, _s._ the paste or pudding made of kalo, potatoes, or breadfruit. It is made by baking the above articles and afterward peeling and pounding them with more or less water and when fermented it is eaten cold with the fingers. --------------------------------------------------------------- SCAMPO HANDBOOK OF THE MEDITERRANEAN: ITS CITIES, COASTS AND ISLANDS by Lieut.-Col. Sir R. Lambert Playfair Third Edition, Revised In Two Parts London: John Murray 1890 This book is recorded as "missing" in NYPL's CATNYP. I haven't looked at the first two editions. There's not much food here, but it does have "scampi." Merriam-Webster has that from 1925, and OED from 1928 and 1930. O.T.: I'd like to add that neither OED nor M-W pays for this cheap bus ride to Washington. It's paid for by my listening to New York City's great citizens submit fake repair bills to excuse their parking tickets. I must have had 20 liars before me yesterday! PART II Pg. 300, col. 1: The fish-market is worthy of a visit. A specialite of Fiume in the way of fish is the so-called "Scampo" (_Nephrops Norvegicus_), a delicious kind of crayfish, from 4 to 8 in. in length. It is found in the deeper parts of the Quarnero, where fresh-water springs abound, but is not met with elsewhere in the Adriatic. It is caught by the Italian trawling-boats, _bragozzi_, which fish off these shores in winter. Tunny and mackerel, anchovy and pilchards, are the chief produce of summer fishing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 20:29:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0500 Subject: Kahuna, Moi, Ono, Opelu (Re: Aku, Mahimahi (1836)) Message-ID: On second thought, he's a few more words from this 1836 book, A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE, by Lorrin Andrews: Pg. 8: A-KU-LE, _s._ a species of fish. Pg. 27: O-NO, _v._ to be or become sweet, to relish as food, to have a sweet taste, to be savory. Pg. 28: O-PE-LU, _s._ a species of fish, mackerel. Pg. 61: KA-HU-NA, _s._ general name of one who has a trade or practices a profession; _kahuna pule_, a priest; _kahuna lapaau_, a physician; _kahuna kalai laau_, a carpenter, &c.; _kahuna kala_, a silversmith. KA-HU-NA, _v._ to exercise a profession, to work at the appropriate business of one. KA-HU-NA-AO, _s._ a preacher, a pulpit teacher. KA-HU-NA-LA-PA-AU, _s._ _kahuna_ and _lapaau_ to heal; a doctor, a physician. Pg. 62: KA-HU-NA-PU-LE, _s._ _kahuna_ and _pule_ prayer; a priest, one who publicly officiates in the exercises of religion. KA-HU-NA-PE-LE, _s._ the priest or priestess of _Pele_. Pg. 102: MO-I, _s._ a species of fish. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 9 21:07:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:07:17 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) Message-ID: THE CANOE AND THE SADDLE, OR KLALAM AND KLICKATAT By THEODORE WINTHROP TO WHICH ARE NOW FIRST ADDED HIS WESTERN LETTERS AND JOURNALS edited by John H. Williams Tacoma: John H. Williams 1913 THE CANOE AND THE SADDLE first appeared in 1862. The following is from a letter. Pg. 257 Vancouver, July 12th, 1853 (...) Pg. 261: A few houses make Olympia a thriving lumbering village, cleared from the woods, with stumps in the main street. Plenty of "Ostend" oysters and large, queer clams.* Puget Sound terminates here in a point, spreading below to a great lake with low banks, thick with firs. *The native oysters of the Sound are small and not unlike in flavor to those of the British Channel, which Winthrop has in mind. They are greatly esteemed by epicures, but fashion has dictated the transplanting of seed of the larger eastern oysters from the Atlantic coast beds. These ripen perfectly, but do not propagate, in the shallow bays at the head of the Sound and on the coast. The clams of Puget Sound have a wide reputation for their abundance and excellence. The "large, queer clams" mentioned by Winthrop are the "geoducks," which weigh several pounds, and are edible. The Puget Sound clam was the subject of a celebrated _bon mot_ by the late Francis W. Cushman, of Tacoma, representative in Congress and the wit of the lower house. Cushman was a Republican, and his best speeches were in support of the tariff. "Our friends the enemy," he said in one of these, "are welcome, if they wish, to return to the lean panic years of the Nineties; but as for me and my constituents, we want no more hard times. We remember too well those sad years on Puget Sound, where we had nothing to live upon but clams. When the tide was out the table was spread. We dug clams, and ate clams, till our stomachs rose and fell with the tide!" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 9 21:29:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:29:51 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <000a01c287ec$e2c2e410$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: At 12:38 PM +0000 11/9/02, Jonathon Green wrote: > >There is also this recent variant: > >1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a >straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may >be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she >is a lesbian > For a female's beard. Very cute. (Presumably, like the default beard, it could also refer to a man who escorts a lesbian on a given night out, not necessarily a man who's married to or seriously involved with a lesbian. The deception is the key part.) I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 9 21:40:24 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:40:24 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:11 AM -0500 11/9/02, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I'm with you arnold; if I hadn'a heard it, I'da said /piKAbo/ or even >/pIKAbo/ (caps = stressed syllable except for /I/, the vowel of HIT). > > >dInIs > >i would never have guessed the spelling Picabo for "Peekaboo" >Street, or the pronunciation from the spelling. > >arnold > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. larry From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Sat Nov 9 22:13:16 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:13:16 +1000 Subject: Sexy "th In-Reply-To: <200211090505.gA955DAJ026574@mailhub2.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: On Duane Campbell's comment on female interdental or advanced interdental "th" rather than dental: this is common in European Spanish (non-southern dialects and the standard) and in Greek, in speakers of both genders. -- Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 01:34:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:34:30 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <7EC733FE.02ED3447.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # The Puget Sound clam was the subject of a celebrated _bon mot_ by #the late Francis W. Cushman, of Tacoma, representative in Congress and #the wit of the lower house. Cushman was a Republican, and his best #speeches were in support of the tariff. "Our friends the enemy," he #said in one of these, "are welcome, if they wish, to return to the #lean panic years of the Nineties; but as for me and my constituents, #we want no more hard times. We remember too well those sad years on #Puget Sound, where we had nothing to live upon but clams. When the #tide was out the table was spread. We dug clams, and ate clams, till #our stomachs rose and fell with the tide!" Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 05:07:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:07:08 EST Subject: Monkey Business (1882), Mascotte, Mask, and more Message-ID: I'm back in New York. It would be nice to have the time to go through four years (1879-1882) of the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. Baseball sportswriting really began there. WINDY CITY (another citation) 28 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: A NINE composed of members of the St. Louis Board of Trade played a similar organization from the Chicago Board in the latter city last Tuesday, and badly defeated the Windy City merchants by a score of 35 to 4 in five innings. (I'll find out more when I check out the online CHICAGO TRIBUNE and WASHINGTON POST, but think about this. The "Windy CIty" in the NEW YORK TIMES goes back to only 1886. I didn't see it very early in other New York City publications. It's in a Cleveland, Ohio publication in 1885 on the American Memory database. It was used in the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL, and now it's in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER. Louisville? CIncinnati?--ed.) MONKEY BUSINESS 13 June 1882, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 2: THERE are intimations by cable that ARABI PASHA has been pracitcing what would be called among the "boys" in America "monkey business;" that he has been pretending to be thrashed when he wasn't;... (The RHHDAS has 1883 for "monkey business"--ed.) MASCOTTE 26 June 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1: ...Porkopolitans... The goat was probably looking for some show-bills, oyster-cans, or some other usually palatable dish for his stomach, but the audience could not see it in that light, and thought he was even a better "Mascotte" than the old-time favorite. JONAH, GOAT 27 June 1883, CINCINATTI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7: Those of a superstituous of mind, who were inclined to attribute the defeat of Monday to the "Jonah" billy-goat, have no opening to lay the disastrous finale of yesterday's game to any such cause, for the innocent object of their superstituous fears was captured, and while the game was in progress was pinioned to a post under the bleaching-boards with a chain large enough to hold a Jumbo. MASK 14 July 1882, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 5, col. 5: CAREY, one of the American Association umpires, wears a mask. (DICKSON'S BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1887 for "mask"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 05:22:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 00:22:31 EST Subject: Washington Post online in Columbia University, LOC? Message-ID: I queried both Columbia University and the Library of Congress about WASHINGTON POST online, which ProQuest told me was now available. Neither has it yet. The WASHINGTON POST, of course, has important political reporting. It also has some good early sports (baseball) reporting, and better early food & drink articles (PA Dutch? Baltimore Crab Cakes?) than the NEW YORK TIMES. COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY: Dear Mr. Popik, Thank you for your inquiry about the Washington Post via Historical Newspapers. As "resource coordinator" for the Historical Newspapers database, I am currently discussing the Washington Post with Proquest and communicating with my colleagues about purchasing the database. While we are very interested in the Washington Post, I cannot tell you when we will be adding it to our collection. There are variables in the decision making and purchasing process that make it difficult to say when a product will be up and running. I appreciate your input - requests from patrons are an important part of our collection development process. I would be happy to send you a follow-up email in the near future when I have more concrete information. Best, Jim Galbraith Electronic Services and Reference Librarian Business and Economics Library 212-854-5467 jg2140 at columbia.edu LIBRARY OF CONGRESS: Dear Barry Popik, Thank you for your use of the QuestionPoint Service. Question ID: 41399 Question: ProQuest Historical Newspapers now offers full text online searching of the WASHINGTON POST. Do you get it? Can I use it on Saturday (tomorrow)? Librarian Reply: We have budgeted FY03 funds to purchase a subscription to ProQuest Historical Newspapers file of the Washington Post. Since Congress has not yet passed appropriations to cover legislative branch activities, the Library hasn't yet issued a purchase order. We do have access to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. We regret we can't help you at this time--but soon we will be providing access to this valuable online file. Good luck with your research. Lyle W. Minter, Head, Newspaper and Current Periodical Room Library of Congress From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Nov 10 07:14:09 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:14:09 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. > > BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! The song "Acres of clams" was made popular by Seattle restaurant owner and philanthropist Ivar Haglund. The Washington state song is the completely forgettable "Washington, my home". However there was a very spirited campaign about 20 years ago to adopt "Louie, Louie" as the state song. Unfortunately, IMHO, the campaign failed. The spelling "geoduck" remains a mystery. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Nov 10 08:08:47 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 03:08:47 -0500 Subject: Idiolect speakers Message-ID: Hi all linguists, This is a recurring theme in my experience, but it will never get flogged to death. Without doing violence to theoretical lingustics, I would like to pass on an interesting opinion received from the Ontario Human Rights Commission. In 1985, after The Native Speaker Is Dead! came out and was reviewed in journals worldwide (also published in a Japanese translation), my chief collaborator on the book, the late Prof. Paul Christophersen of Cambridge, England, sent me several clippings of ads for English language teachers, editors, etc. by public agencies that had switched to terms like "first language user" to avoid using "native speaker". Formerly want ads would say "Only native speakers need apply" or words to that effect. Personally, I consider "native speaker" somewhat exclusionary ("elitist, if not racist" is how one of the participants in the above discussion put it). Since this discussion would be digressive in the paper I am giving at the Atlanta ADS, I add an end note to this exchange. TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net From: Reema_Khawja/OHRC.ON.CA at OHRC.ON.CA To: t.paikeday at sympatico.ca Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:38 PM Subject: "native speaker" Dear Mr. Paikeday, I am writing in response to your e-mail of October 29, 2002 in which you ask whether it is acceptable to ask if a candidate for an English-language editor position if he/she is a "native speaker". Ontario Human Rights Commission staff do not give opinion or advice on any specific situation or its compliance with the law. However, I can offer the following comment based on the Ontario Human Rights Code (the "Code") and the Commission's Policy on Discrimination and Language (available on our web site: www.ohrc.on.ca). As you know, the Code does not include "language" as a prohibited ground of discrimination. However, the Code does prohibit discrimination on the basis of ancestry, ethnic origin and place of origin, all of which can be linked to language. The Policy on Discrimination and Language notes that discrimination based on "mother tongue" can be discrimination on the basis of ancestry, ethnic origin or place of origin. A similar argument can be made for discrimination based on whether someone is a "native speaker" which also appears to be directly linked to ancestry, ethnic origin or place of origin. In other words, while the Commission has not specifically contemplated the term "native speaker", the analysis in the Policy on Discrimination and Language applied to "mother tongue" appears equally applicable. Making a distinction on the basis of "mother tongue" or "native speaker" will not likely be permitted unless the requirement can be shown to be a reasonable and bona fide (i.e. genuine) requirement of the job. This means that the requirement must bear an objective relationship to the essential requirements of the job. The employer must be able to demonstrate with concrete, and not impressionistic, evidence that this is a genuine job requirement that cannot be fulfilled by those who are not "native speakers". In addition, individualized assessment should be used. In other words, in the unlikely circumstance it can be shown that being a "native speaker" is a legitimate requirement, an opportunity should still be provided to someone who does not meet this requirement to demonstrate that he/she nevertheless can perform the job. The information I have provided is a policy staff opinion based on the Code and Commission policies. It should not be viewed as legal advice. If a complaint is received in relation to this matter, it will be processed in accordance with the Commission's usual procedures. Sincerely, Reema Khawja Senior Policy Analyst ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reema Khawja, Senior Policy Analyst Ontario Human Rights Commission, Policy and Education Branch 180 Dundas Street West, 8th Floor Toronto, ON M7A 2R9 Phone: (416) 314-4551 Fax: (416) 314-4533 reema.khawja at ohrc.on.ca MY E-MAIL OF OCT. 29: info at ohrc.ont.ca If I may ask a question apparently not covered by your Human Rights Guide: When recruiting English-language editors, is it all right to ask a candidate if he/she is a "native speaker" of English? Professors of linguistics consider the native speaker as the arbiter or grammaticality and acceptability in language use, as in Noam Chomsky's "Sentences generated will have to be acceptable to the native speaker" (Syntactic Structures). The term is not defined in most dictionaries because the meaning is supposed to be transparent and self-explanatory. But it is really more confusing than "mother tongue," etc. which you find in all dictionaries. A variant of the question may be "Is your mother tongue English?" which, I am sure, will strike you as discriminatory. That is how someone hiring an editor might rephrase the question if a candidate countered with "What is a native speaker?" My question, of course, is not about "mother tongue" but about "native speaker" and the concept behind it. I thought it would be interesting to find out if you have dealt with this issue and whether there has been a ruling on the subject. Personally I consider it an exclusionary term like "outsider," "stranger," "gentile," "foreigner," etc. Compare "No Irish need apply." I could use your answer in a paper I am giving to the annual meeting of the American Dialect Society. Many thanks in anticipation. Sincerely, T. M. PAIKEDAY -------------------------------- END NOTE: When someone claims "I am a native speaker of English," it raises the question, What English? (A language may be thought of as an abstract entity, but it exists in reality as used by people). Surely you cannot speak every dialect of English from Australian to Zimbabweyan? That would be "speaking in tongues" or a refined kind of glossolalia. A more correct answer might be, OK, I am a native speaker of American English. But do you natively speak all varieties of American English? No, just the variety I learned to speak in adolescence (The new Oxford dictionaries say, "from earliest childhood" which sounds a bit far-fetched). But if you are a native speaker of a specific variety, say Appalachian English, isn't what you use your own individual vocabulary, pronunciation style, usage, etc. which sets you apart from other speakers of Appalachian English and which you probably leave behind (like the robe you lounge in) when you speak in public? So let us say you are a native speaker of your idiolect, a customized version of the language you picked up at home. As Chomsky said in 1985, "So then, what is a language and who is a native speaker? Answer, a language is a system L-s, it is the steady state attained by the language organ. And everyone is a native speaker of the particular L-s that that person has "grown" in his/her mind/brain. In the real world, that is all there is to say." Which in my humble opinion is not saying very much for those who claim they are native speakers of English. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Nov 10 11:23:46 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:23:46 -0000 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: >I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a > gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. > > larry > A 'false' beard, and thus a 'disguise', perhaps? The obvious answer, I acknowledge, but possibly true. Jonathon Green From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sun Nov 10 12:13:51 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:13:51 -0600 Subject: MERKIN in the OED & old joke Message-ID: If we can mention blow up dolls. does anyone remember the old joke that goes: Visitor to New York visits a wig store, see some very small wigs and askabout them. Clerk explains that they are merkins and show people and prostituts wear them on their days off. Visitor, "I'll take a redhead and a blond" "Shall I wrap them" "No, I'll eat them here" From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 16:20:23 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:20:23 EST Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2002 6:22:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > >I've still never quite understood why a woman who performs this service > > for a gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. [from "Larry"] > > A 'false' beard, and thus a 'disguise', perhaps? The obvious answer, I > acknowledge, but possibly true. I have seen this meaning of beard in a heterosexual and therefore probably more plausible context. According to a newspaper story a few years ago when some Congressman got a lot of bad publicity for hiring his girlfriend, the normal way for a prominent man to take his secret girlfriend to public events is to have a second man, known as a "beard" presumably because of the false-beard analogy. The beard and the girlfriend pose as a couple with the prominent man posing as the couple's guest. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 16:23:05 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:23:05 EST Subject: Geoduck (1853?) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/09/2002 8:35:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called "Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, "Rosin the bow!") - Jim Landau From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 10 17:41:24 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:41:24 -0500 Subject: Geoduck & "Acres of Clams" Message-ID: Jim Landau asks, >> Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also >> called "Rosin the Beau"? Yes. The words to "Acres of Clams" (a/k/a "The Old Settlers' Song"), according to Edith Fowke and Joe Glazer, were written by Judge Francis D. Henry. The tune, from Ireland, was also used for the ballad "Men of the West" and, in this country, for the rousing campaign song "Lincoln and Liberty Too." --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 18:02:21 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:02:21 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <16c.16e1d3c3.2affe1e9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #In a message dated 11/09/2002 8:35:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the #> state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. # #Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called #"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, #"Rosin the bow!") AocC is ttto (to the tune of) RtB. But the words of RtB are definitely "Beau", though I'm sure there's an intentional pun. "... to welcome old Rosin the Beau!" -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 10 21:58:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:58:22 -0500 Subject: Kazoo (HARPER'S WEEKLY, July 1884) Message-ID: I was searching for "geoduck," but while I was on strange words, I thought I'd give "kazoo" a blast. This small antedate (OED has October 1884) is from HARPER'S WEEKLY, page 488: Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912 Return to: Main Menu | New Search -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 84-07-26 KAZOO FACTS. "What is the Kazoo!" "The great- est Musical Wonder ever invented. Plays any tune, imitates any Bird or Animal, Bagpipes and Punch and Judy." "When used by Min- strel and Specialty Artists, Quartettes or Cho- fuses, does it receive repeated encores?" "Invariably." "Does it fer- nish good dancing music?" "Yes." "Can all young or old quickly learn its use without instruction?" "Yes." "Is it superior to anything else for Campaign Clubs in street parades, & c.?" "Yes." "Used as a mouthpiece on brass or tin horns, is the music good?" "Yes, and the keys require no fingering." "Are the sales and profits satisfactory in stores, street and news stands, at Fairs, Races. Pleasure Resorts, on Railroad trains, Steamers, & c.?" "The largest on record." Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents. Geo. D. Smith , sole proprietor, 53 State Street, Rochester, N. Y. Pianos, Organs, Music. Branch 352, Main Street, Buffalo, N. Y. Mention this paper. (KAZOO WITH WHIP??--ed.) From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:30:00 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:30:00 -0600 Subject: Re.: Kazoo Message-ID: "....Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents." Okay, I'll bite. What is up with having a whip or a cane attached to your kazoo? Maybe I am just not imaginative enough? Or maybe I just haven't run into "that kind" of kazoo? -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:33:25 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:33:25 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? Message-ID: Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie #Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called #"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, #"Rosin the bow!") From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Nov 10 23:34:04 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:34:04 -0500 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Millie Webb wrote: #Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled #"resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are #alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle #games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie # ##Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called ##"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, ##"Rosin the bow!") For this song, at least, the title is definitely "Rsin the Beau". -- Mark A. Mandel From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:54:21 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:54:21 -0600 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin Message-ID: > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where > this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo > (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the > time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for > peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this > point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves > it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I > take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. > > larry > And the big question? What kind of flaky "emeriti hippies" don't get around to naming their child until she is a toddler and well into the "peekaboo" stage? :-) :-) We live in Madison, Wisconsin, and until we had lived here through a football season (we moved here in mid December), I had no idea Brett Favre spelled his name like that. I had heard most "Farr", and only occasionally "Farv", with the "v" very "lightly" pronounced. With my darling husband now more addicted to televised football than he has ever been before (he never used to care who did what if Michigan was not playing), I have heard the "Farv" with the more obvious "v" a bit more often. At our son's school, on our first day in Madison, we found that a K-1 combination classroom had a guinea pig named "Brett Farr", and I had never heard of him before, so I had no idea it was spelled "F-a-v-r-e". Now, the hockey and baseball question of "G-a-g-n-e" I could have commented on long ago.... From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sun Nov 10 23:58:10 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:58:10 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? Message-ID: Yup, I know it an "o" in the song, it was the "e" or "o" in the musical instrument preparation context that I was asking about. Thanks though. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Resin or rosin? > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Millie Webb wrote: > > #Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled > #"resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Or maybe there are > #alternate spellings? This could be a great word for the odd Boggle > #games some friends and I have recently become addicted to. -- Millie > # > ##Isn't "Acres of Clams" a different set of words to a folk tune also called > ##"Rosin the Beau"? (which I interpet as an instruction to the fiddler, > ##"Rosin the bow!") > > For this song, at least, the title is definitely "Rsin the Beau". > > -- Mark A. Mandel > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Nov 11 00:06:30 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:06:30 -0500 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: Millie Webb writes: >Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" >relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Bow rosin for stringed insruments is a product refined from resin. Probably the rosin used in various sports, e.g., baseball, gymnastics, is also. A. Murie From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Nov 11 00:14:13 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:14:13 -0600 Subject: Kazoo Message-ID: Is this from a novelty catalog from 1880 to 1930? In the novelty business, cheap "musical" instruments were made with pull out multi folded paper devices, shaped like fans, flags etc. perhaps this is what they are referring to. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Millie Webb" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: Re.: Kazoo "....Price 10c.; by mail, 11c. Kazoo with Whip, Cane, Fan or Trumpet attachment 15c.; by mail 20c. Extra inducements to commercial travellers starting agencies. Liberal discounts to agents." Okay, I'll bite. What is up with having a whip or a cane attached to your kazoo? Maybe I am just not imaginative enough? Or maybe I just haven't run into "that kind" of kazoo? -- Millie From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 01:48:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:48:41 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1882)>McLoughlin In-Reply-To: <00b501c28914$7d62bf90$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0600 11/10/02, Millie Webb wrote: > > Well, at least we know (or we've been given to believe we know) where >> this one came from: the skiier's parents named her partly for Picabo >> (a town in Montana or some such state where they were living at the >> time; these were emeriti hippies, evidently) and partly for >> peek-a-boo, which she loved playing as a toddler. (Before this >> point, they hadn't gotten around to naming her at all.) This leaves >> it open how Picabo, the town's name, was/is actually pronounced. I >> take it not as a homonym of "peek-a-boo", though. >> >> larry >> > >And the big question? What kind of flaky "emeriti hippies" don't get around >to naming their child until she is a toddler and well into the "peekaboo" >stage? :-) :-) I think it had something to do with her being old enough to have developed enough character to make it possible to choose an appropriate name. After all, if her favorite game as a toddler had been 5-card stud and they lived near Poker Gulch, they would have named her Poker. (Or perhaps Poquer.) >We live in Madison, Wisconsin, and until we had lived here through a >football season (we moved here in mid December), I had no idea Brett Favre >spelled his name like that. I had heard most "Farr", and only occasionally >"Farv", with the "v" very "lightly" pronounced. Is that regional, or just a case of the labiodental being effectively swallowed after the /r/, i.e. rendered inaudible though still articulated? Is there really a regional dimension for "Farr" vs. "Farv"? In case any non-football fans are wondering, Favre is from Cajun country in Louisiana and went to college in Mississippi. So the name is legitimately French; I don't know if the metathesis is something practiced down there as well as in Wisconsin, or if he was /favr(@)/ chez lui. For a southern boy he's adapted very well, having never lost a game when the temperature drops below 40 degrees, which it does rather often in Green Bay, and he's started more consecutive games by far(v) than any other quarterback in history. larry From pds at VISI.COM Mon Nov 11 03:01:20 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:01:20 -0600 Subject: Resin or rosin? In-Reply-To: <005b01c28911$9100bff0$7201a8c0@HP> Message-ID: The stuff in my viola case is labeled "Pirastro Goldflex Rosin". At 05:33 PM 11/10/2002 -0600, you wrote: >Again, color me confused, if you must, but isn't the word spelled "resin" relative to a fiddle or violin bow? Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 03:56:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:56:16 -0500 Subject: Aku, Mahimahi (1836); Scampo (1890) In-Reply-To: <07C276FF.47912E7D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 03:04:58PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > MAHIMAHI > > A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE > by Lorrin Andrews > Lahainaluna: Press of the High School > 1836 > > A classic book. I was looking for "tuna." There's a lot > more here, but I'll torch DARE and OED on just "aku" and > "mahimahi." I know we've discussed before the question of what makes a word "English" as opposed to "foreign", and I've said that it's often hard to judge because there's a continuum involved, but this is a case where it seems pretty clear that the words in question are not English. Perhaps the "in the Hawaiian Language" of the title influenced me a little. I thus don't consider myself "torched". But I'll pick up the bus tab for your next trip anyway, if you'd like. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jdawnj80 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Nov 11 05:03:33 2002 From: jdawnj80 at HOTMAIL.COM (Jessica Smedley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:03:33 +0000 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How and why would he/she do this? Jessica Smedley _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 08:25:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:25:37 EST Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" Message-ID: MAHIMAHI VS. MUCKAMUCK "Mahimahi" is not English in 1836? OED's first citation is 1905. DARE's first citation is 1926. The book I cited from is in English. It lists "mahimahi" as a species--what else would you call it? As I've said before, it could be the first citation, or put in parenthesis, or put in "etymology" (which just lists "Hawaiian" and nothing else). But if I'm looking up "mahimahi," it's a citation I'd like to know about. Why not make things easy for dictionary users? Look at OED's revised "Mazurka," for example. That gives you the dates in other languages. But look at both DARE and OED for "muckamuck"--a term I've come across as well. Both give an 1847 citation. The "muckamuck" citation is in a list of "Chinook jargon." Is that English? DARE puts it in parenthesis. OED uses it as the first citation. No parenthesis. The "Chinook" side of a jargon list is considered English! Why is what's good enough for "muckamuck" not good enough for "mahimahi"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIMITED RESOURCES From the NEW YORK TIMES on the web today: "In India, a nation of limited resources, how much should be spent to care for people infected with H.I.V." India is a country of "limited resources." That implies that other countries have "unlimited resources." What countries are they? "Poor country" is not politcally correct? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 10:00:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:00:51 EST Subject: Wet Shoes; Stifado (1896) Message-ID: WET SHOES I left this out of my "wet fries" discussion. I saw it in a small new book callled HUNGRY? NEW YORK. It appears to be popular in Ithaca and Buffalo. From a web site for Max's, Holiday Inn, Ithaca, New York: WET SHOES $4.99 Max's Original! The ultimate combination of hand-cut fries topped with serious chili, cheddar cheese, a dab of sour cream and scallions. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STIFADO OED has 1950 for "stifado." However, see its 1688 "stuffado" and 1771 "stuffata." The latter two are probably Italian. This dish is Greek--perhaps useful for my big fat Greek wedding (although I'm not Greek and no one will marry me). From the NEW YORK HERALD, 10 May 1896, pg. 27, col. 3: _GREEKS ARE GOOD CITIZENS._ (...) _CHARACTERISTICS OF THEIR RESTAURANTS._ (...) (Col. 4--ed.) GREEK EATING HOUSES. There is a large number of Greek restaurants in and adjacent to Madison st. These are interesting places. They are plainly furnished; deal tables and cheap chairs are the principal furniture. But for 25 cents a Greek or any one else can get a large amount of nourishing food at one of these restaurants. The greatest delight of all is the nargile, the Turkish pipe, from which delicious draughts of smoke are drawn through cooling waters. When the Greek has leisure, as he does on Sundays (Never on Sunday!--ed.), he will use the nargile by the hour and play cards for additional pastime. Of course, he must for pay extra time spent in the restaurant. But for 25 cents will afford him a good dinner and a considerable amount of tobacco. Turkish cigarettes are also smoked with the coffee, which is served black. Roast lamb and meat and vegetables stewed together are the favorite dishes. The Greeks do not fancy potatoes, and none are to be found in a Greek restaurant. Bread seems to take the place of potatoes. It is said that the Greeks eat more bread than any other people. In their restaurants here they make a soup which is regarded as a great delicacy by them. In this eggs and lemon are beaten together, making a cour compound. Rice is added to it. This soup is called "manestra." Another dish is meat stewed with celery on which this mixture of lemon and eggs is put as a sauce. Another esteemed dish is a broth of chicken, in which rice is boiled until the broth is absorbed by the rice. Then the combination is put on top of a stove. Butter is added, and then to the rice a kind of sour clabber. Some eat the clabber separately. Still another dish is made of whole onions and meat stewed together and called "stiffato." For dessert fruit and pastry made with butter and milk are used. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 15:19:58 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:19:58 -0500 Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 03:25:37AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > MAHIMAHI VS. MUCKAMUCK > > "Mahimahi" is not English in 1836? > OED's first citation is 1905. DARE's first citation is 1926. > The book I cited from is in English. It lists "mahimahi" as a > species--what else would you call it? As I've said before, it could be the > first citation, or put in parenthesis, or put in "etymology" (which just > lists "Hawaiian" and nothing else). But if I'm looking up "mahimahi," it's a > citation I'd like to know about. Why not make things easy for dictionary > users? There's a big difference between having a word as the first citation and having it in brackets or in the etymology. This book, while written in English, is a dictionary of Hawaiian; to say that the glossing of a Hawaiian word is English just because it's in a bilingual dictionary is like saying that _eludificor_ is English because it appears in the _Oxford Latin Dictionary._ (It's from Plautus, so probably occurs as an inkhorn term in the 17th century, if you want to look for it.) We try to give information that is helpful. I don't think the existence of _mahimahi_ in Hawaiian is in question to the extent that it serves any useful purpose to demonstrate that it existed in 1836. Contrast this, however, with: > Look at OED's revised "Mazurka," for example. That gives you the dates in > other languages. In the case of _mazurka,_ the etymology is quite complicated, and the question of borrowing among various Western European languages is a difficult one. Thus it does serve a useful purpose, in my opinion, to go into more detail of the history of the term's transmission from Polish to Western European languages. This is quite different from _mahimahi,_ which is unquestionably from Hawaiian directly into English. > But look at both DARE and OED for "muckamuck"--a term I've come across as > well. Both give an 1847 citation. The "muckamuck" citation is in a list of > "Chinook jargon." Is that English? > DARE puts it in parenthesis. > OED uses it as the first citation. No parenthesis. The "Chinook" side of > a jargon list is considered English! > Why is what's good enough for "muckamuck" not good enough for "mahimahi"? In this case, you're right--which is why in the revised version of this entry, which should appear in March 2003, the 1847 cite has been moved up into the etymology, and 1852 is our earliest example of English use. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jkheller at SIU.EDU Mon Nov 11 15:26:53 2002 From: jkheller at SIU.EDU (John Hellermann) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:26:53 -0600 Subject: "native speaker" Message-ID: I have a request related to the "native speaker" thread that has been active in the past few days. I am a conversation analyst interested in how people talk about or talk around terms such as "native speaker" and "non native speaker" as well as how people talk to one another about other people's dialects. Granted, there are countless reels of tape of sociolinguistic interviews eliciting attitudes toward dialects, specific usages, and phonological variables. But what I am really interested in is a collection of examples from non-interview, talk in social interaction in which the topics of "dialect" or "native/non-native speaker" comes up. If anyone has such data (recorded or written) that you could share, I would be very grateful if you could contact me. John Hellermann, Assistant Professor Department of Speech Communication Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Illinois 62901 (618) 453-1893 From mkuha at BSU.EDU Mon Nov 11 16:35:22 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:35:22 -0500 Subject: "native speaker" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20021111090024.00cc8270@saluki-mail.siu.edu> Message-ID: I don't know if this counts as talk in social interaction, but the NewsHour did a piece recently on telemarketers in India "talking to customers in Europe and America". The issue of native/nonnative English comes up in an indirect way. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/telemarketing_11-05.html -Mai On 11/11/02 10:26 AM, John Hellermann wrote: > ...I am a conversation analyst interested in how people talk about or talk > around terms such as "native speaker" and "non native speaker" as well as > how people talk to one another about other people's dialects. > > ...But what I am really interested in is a collection of examples > from non-interview, talk in social interaction in which the topics of > "dialect" or "native/non-native speaker" comes up... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 17:06:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:06:59 EST Subject: Mahimahi vs. Muckamuck; "Limited Resources" Message-ID: It doesn't serve "any useful purpose" to tell readers about that 1836 "mahimahi" on a first citation of 1905? Again, I think the book is a close call. "Mahimahi" is defined as "a species of fish," not "dolphin" or "dorado." And again, DARE included similar in brackets on "muckamuck." On "muckamuck,": OED is putting the 1847 citation in the etymology (where the first citation is 1852)? Is there some doubt that the word is from Chinook jargon? This same "erymology" treatment couldn't be done for "mahimahi"? People would ommediately cancel their OED subscriptions if you give a more detailed etymology? Ah, I don't care. It doesn't affect my pay. From Friolly at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 17:07:50 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:07:50 EST Subject: "squz" Message-ID: No, but I have heard 'skwoze' many times. Fritz > I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a > past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has > anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical > area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How > and why would he/she do this? From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Nov 11 17:11:11 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:11:11 -0600 Subject: 'ahold' in Boston Globe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Short article on increasing use of 'ahold' in print, outside of quote marks. http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/314/focus/Holding_pattern+.shtml Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Nov 11 18:14:07 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:14:07 -0500 Subject: "native speaker" Message-ID: But did you notice no one has so far picked up the thread that I activated a few days ago? I was hoping at least D.R.P. who claimed he is a native speaker of English a couple of weeks back would have something to say. I consider him one of the most eminent speakers of English alive today. But "native speaker"? Please ignore this provocation. T.M.P. ------Original Message ----- From: "John Hellermann" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: "native speaker" > I have a request related to the "native speaker" thread that has been > active in the past few days. > .... > John Hellermann, Assistant Professor > Department of Speech Communication > Southern Illinois University > Carbondale, Illinois 62901 > > (618) 453-1893 From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 18:20:16 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:20:16 EST Subject: Dictionary Society of North America meeting Message-ID: ****NOTICE****NOTICE*****NOTICE**** Abstracts for the Dictionary Society of North America's 14th biennial meeting are due December 1st. We invite interested participants to submit one-page abstracts for 20 minute papers on any aspect of dictionaries. Submissions will be processed for anonymous review. The meeting will be held at Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, USA, May 28-31, 2003. Please visit our the Abstracts page on our website for details: www.duke.edu/web/linguistics/dsna.htm Ron Butters, Chair Duke Linguistics Program 307 Allen Building Duke University Durham, NC 27708 919-684-6561 linguistics at duke.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Nov 11 19:47:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:47:06 -0500 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry to sound so out of it, but I'm trying to remember "Louie Louie" and wondering why it would be significant to Washington--not to mention to Paul Wellstone, for whom it was apparently a favorite song. Anyone know? At 11:14 PM 11/9/2002 -0800, you wrote: >On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > > Cf. the song "Acres of Clams", which I believe Washington adopted as the > > state song, minus a couple of the less complimentary verses. > > > > BTW, how did /'gu i d^k/ ever get that spelling?! > >The song "Acres of clams" was made popular by Seattle restaurant owner and >philanthropist Ivar Haglund. The Washington state song is the completely >forgettable "Washington, my home". However there was a very spirited >campaign about 20 years ago to adopt "Louie, Louie" as the state song. >Unfortunately, IMHO, the campaign failed. > >The spelling "geoduck" remains a mystery. > >allen >maberry at u.washington.edu From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 11 19:47:26 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:47:26 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Jessica Smedley says about this word (apparently pronounced "skwuzz"), >> I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a >> past-tense form of the verb "squeeze,"...Is it possible that this >> person created this word? How and why would he/she do this? Sure! Why not? (Is his or her sex indeterminate?) But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 19:54:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:54:54 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: <77.1d931b2.2b013de6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:07 PM -0500 11/11/02, Fritz Juengling wrote: >No, but I have heard 'skwoze' many times. >Fritz Ditto > > >> I recently heard a word that I have only heard one person say. As a > > past-tense form of the verb "squeeze," this person said "squz" [skw^z]. Has >> anyone ever heard of this word? This person is from the same geographical >> area that I am from. Is it possible that this person created this word? How >> and why would he/she do this? If I *did* here [skw^z], I don't think I would transcribe it as "squz", given the standard orthographic conventions. I think it would have to be either "squuz" or "squiz", although the latter is admittedly misleading. "quC" is ill-formed, where C is any consonant. (Not counting unnaturalized loans.) larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 11 20:08:40 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:08:40 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: <200211111447_MC3-1-1A2E-A9C@compuserve.com> Message-ID: At 2:47 PM -0500 11/11/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) > >--Dodi Schultz P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Let me try googling...Yup, 716 for "squoze", 0 for "skwoze". Majority rules! (But I will allow for minority rights too.) L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Nov 11 20:23:06 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:23:06 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Saturday, November 9, 2002 4:29 pm Subject: Re: MERKIN in the OED > At 12:38 PM +0000 11/9/02, Jonathon Green wrote: > > > >There is also this recent variant: > > > >1997-2001 The Online Slang Dictionary [Internet] merkin n 1. a > >straight man married to or involved with a lesbian. The lesbian may > >be in the public eye and may have a merkin to hide the fact that she > >is a lesbian > > > For a female's beard. Very cute. (Presumably, like the default > beard, it could also refer to a man who escorts a lesbian on a given > night out, not necessarily a man who's married to or seriously > involved with a lesbian. The deception is the key part.) I've still > never quite understood why a woman who performs this service for a > gay man is called his beard, but that's another issue. > > larry > The original sense was probably from gambling, as in the citation below: a1953: [A horse trainer] looked about for a ?beard? -- a man with whom he had no ostensible connection -- to do his betting for him. [A horse trainer] didn?t make the bets himself, fearing that this might put a run on [his] horse, but had several friends put the money down in small lots. This is known in the trade as using ?beards.? Joe H. Palmer, This Was Racing, N. Y.: A. S. Barnes, 1953, p. 82 & 107. [Palmer died in 1952; the book is a collection of columns written in the late 1940s & early 1950s. The exact date of the original publication is not given. He tells a story elsewhere in the book about Frank James, the wild-west bank robber, after his release from prison, working as a beard around race-tracks.] 1972: One night I was bearding for a Congressman. This is a duty of bachelor staff members when a legislator is married and wishes to go out publicly with a lady other than his wife. *** To the unsuspecting public, the bachelor (the ?beard?) is the lady?s escort and the legislator is just tagging along. Charles Ashman, Kissinger: The Adventures of Super-Kraut, N. Y.: Dell, 1972, p. 7. [Referring to the 1950s.] As I recall, HDAS doesn't have the gambling sense; for the dating sense, it says, in part: 1956, etc.; (note beard, n, 3b, a companion or escort, limited to Homosex. use, from 1971) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 20:29:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:29:56 -0500 Subject: Yellow Legs (East Tennesseans, 1857) Message-ID: From THE PLOUGH, THE LOOM, AND THE ANVIL, June 1857, pg. 715: _DOTS BY AN EAST TENNESSEAN._ (...) It is doubtless generally known that East Tennessee is proverbial for "_sweet-cider and dried apples_," and that her sons are known and called, west of the Mississippi, "_Yellow Legs_." (...) She has been one of my instructors in farming since 1836. Her lesson on _long food_, commonly called by farmers roughness, during the latter winter months, have, I trust, been of some advantage to me. (There are several "Yellow Legs" in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS, but I didn't see "Tennessee." DARE?..."Long food?"--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 20:37:39 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:37:39 -0500 Subject: MERKIN in the OED In-Reply-To: <34134533dcff.33dcff341345@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 03:23:06PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > > The original sense was probably from gambling, as in the citation below: > a1953: [A horse trainer] looked about for a ?beard? -- a man >with whom he had no ostensible connection -- to do his >betting for him. [...] > As I recall, HDAS doesn't have the gambling sense; for the >dating sense, it says, in part: 1956, etc.; (note beard, n, >3b, a companion or escort, limited to Homosex. use, from >1971) Actually, HDAS sense 3.a. is indeed "_Gamb._ a go-between who places bets for another in order to protect his identity; (broadly) an unacknowledged agent". But your 1953 example above is an antedating; the first example in HDAS is 1956. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 21:01:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:01:37 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1901); Mahimahi vs. Meeting-house Message-ID: N.Y.C. Jesse asked me about the first use of N.Y.C.=New York City. I'm getting tons of bad hits, mostly for the New York Central Rail Road (N.Y.C.R.R.). 17 November 1901, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: "Historical Day and Evening of the N.Y.C.C.D.A.R.," the latter being translated meaning New York City Chapter Daughters of the American Revolution, are to be celebrated at Sherry's on Saturday, Nov. 30. (I'll do better. I just what to see what Fred Shapiro comes up with--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MAHIMAHI VS. MEETING-HOUSE I ran the name "Lorrin Andrews" ("L. Andrews") through OED online. The entry for "meeting house" came up. This is a newly revised entry. "1865 L. Andrews Dict. Hawaiian Lang." is the first citation! No brackets, either! It was probably there also in 1836, but I didn't look. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 11 21:16:40 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:16:40 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1901); Mahimahi vs. Meeting-house In-Reply-To: <473EE31C.58DFB80D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 04:01:37PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > N.Y.C. > 17 November 1901, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: > "Historical Day and Evening of the N.Y.C.C.D.A.R.," the latter being translated meaning New York City Chapter Daughters of the American Revolution, are to be celebrated at Sherry's on Saturday, Nov. 30. > > (I'll do better. I just what to see what Fred Shapiro comes up with--ed.) He'll have to do better than 1891 to beat us, which I'm sure one of you will do shortly. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > MAHIMAHI VS. MEETING-HOUSE > > I ran the name "Lorrin Andrews" ("L. Andrews") through OED online. The entry for "meeting house" came up. This is a newly revised entry. > "1865 L. Andrews Dict. Hawaiian Lang." is the first citation! No brackets, either! Yes, because the term "meeting house" occurs in the English text of the dictionary! If the entry for _mahimahi_ had read, "_mahimahi,_ the mahimahi fish, a kind of fish," then we'd put it in without brackets too! In Andrews the phrase _meeting house_ is glossing a Hawaiian word. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 11 23:23:48 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:23:48 -0500 Subject: Hardtack (1832) Message-ID: TWO YEARS AND A HALF IN THE AMERICAN NAVY: COMPRISING A JOURNAL OF A CRUISE TO ENGLAND, IN THE MEDITERRNEAN, AND IN THE LEVANT, ON BOARD OF THE U. S. FRIGATE CONSTELLATION, IN THE YEARS 1829, 1830, and 1831 by E. C. Wines in two volumes London: Richard Bentley 1833 Philadelphia: Carey & Lea 1832 I read the 1833 version, but I'm sure that the 1832 American version is the same. This book was read by OED and gives us our first "Dago." OED cites the book eight times. Of course, OED also missed a lot. "Mahimahi" isn't here. VOLUME ONE Pg. 19: *"Green-horn" is a term applied on shipboard to all who have never been to sea before. Pg. 25: ...as long as I could get beans or _lobscowse_.* *I have never seen this word written, I have therefore given it an orthography corresponding to its pronunciation. It is a dish composed of salt beef and potatoes hashed up together, and very _fashionable_ when nothing better can be obtained. Pg. 25: The midshipmen call each other familiarly "reefers," and I had frequent opportunities of witnessing their jovial disposition and habits. Pg. 24: We lived entirely on what are called on shipboard "salt junk and hard tack," which means salted provisions and sea-biscuit. "Fresh grub and soft tack" are the sea terms for fresh meats and bread. (OED and M-W have 1836 for "hardtack"--ed.) Pg. 26: "Sky-larking and running," that is, rough-and-tumble play, and a free indulgence in personal sarcasms, occupied no small portion of their time. Pg. 35: The _middies_... Pg. 69: The three standing dishes at sea, are salt beef, pork and beans, and _duff_, a heavy, indigestible species of plum-pudding. In port, fresh beef is substituted for salt. (OED has 1840 for "duff"?--ed.) Pg. 82: But all the sympathy you get is a hearty laugh from every one who happen to hear you, when you "heave-up," accompanied, perhaps, with the still more provoking prescription of a copious use of salt water and raw pork. (I'm having a bit of trouble finding "throw up" and "heave up" for "vomit"--ed.) Pg. 96: Here a party is collected of which some half-dozen are keeping time to the music of the violin; there an old tar is "spinning yarns," i. e. recounting real or fictitious adventures to a second company, whose occasional loud bursts of laughter mark what are considered the odd or witty parts of the story;... Pg. 217: ...many of the men were "pretty well corned," as they call it. VOLUME TWO Pg. 8: They usually take lodgings merely at a public house, and dine at the _trattoria_. (OED has another 1832 citation--ed.) Pg. 116: _Piano piano, dice l'Italiano_.* *"Slow and easy is the Italian's motto." Pg. 142: Let them act upon the principal of the old Spanish proverb, _El que no sabe lo que es la guerra, que vaya a ver_.* *"He who is ignorant of what war is, let him become a soldier." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 11 23:44:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:44:08 -0500 Subject: "squz" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #At 2:47 PM -0500 11/11/02, Dodi Schultz wrote: #> #>But I say "skwoze," myself (that's a long "o"). So do lots of others. ;-) #> #>--Dodi Schultz # #P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I #think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Let #me try googling...Yup, 716 for "squoze", 0 for "skwoze". Majority #rules! (But I will allow for minority rights too.) Perhaps apropos: I snoze a sneeze into the air. It fell to earth I know not where. But hard and cold were the looks of those In whose vicinity I snoze. Google finds several variants of this, attributed to Ish Kabibble, Ogden Nash, and good old Anon. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 02:47:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:47:22 -0500 Subject: Feijao, Cameron (1845) Message-ID: SKETCHES OF RESIDENCE AND TRAVELS IN BRAZIL, EMBRACING HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL NOTICES OF THE EMPIRE AND SEVERAL OF ITS PROVINCES by the Rev. Daniel P. Kidder in two volumes Philadelphia: Sorin & Ball 1845 OED has "feijao" from 1857 and an author named Kidder. Keep in mind that none of this is English until Jesse tells me it is. "Caipirinha" is still not English, so don't ask me. VOLUME ONE Pg. 97 ...mangoes, bananas, pomegranates, mammoons, goyabas, jambos, aracas, mangabas, and many other species of fruit... (Mammoons?--ed.) Pg. 274: Most of the _carne secca_, or jerked beef, in common use throughout Brazil, is prepared here.After the hide is taken from the ox, the flesh is skinned off in a similar manner from the whole side, in strips about half an inch in thickness. The meat, in this form, is stretched in the sun to dry. But very little salt is used in its preservation. When sufficiently cured, it is shipped to all the maritime provinces, and is the only kind of preserved beef used in the country. Pg. 274: These meats are not very inviting to the taste of an uninitiated foreigner, but those who persevere in their use for any length of time, particularly in connection with the _Feijao preto_, or black beans, never wonder at the partiality of the Brazilians for them. Pg.278: Little children, armed with their _lasso_ or _bolas_, make war upon the chickens, ducks, and geese of the farmyard, until their ambition and strength lead them into a wider field. (OED has 1843 for "bolas"?--ed.) Pg. 285: I obtained a supper of _cangica_, boiled corn and milk, and a tolerable night's lodging. Pg. 303: There was also made here a large quantity of _guarapa_, the simple juice of the sugar-cane in a state of partial fermentation. It is a beverage much esteemed and much used in this portion of Brazil. Pg. 346: Abridged from a work by LOUIS RIEDEL, Botanist, Rio de Janeiro. (A list of Roots; Woods and Barks; Leaves and Herbs; and Fruits, Gums, Resins, Balsams, and Oils. "Guarana" is here, for example, and OED has that from only 1838--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 105: With a little white sugar and lime-juice sprinkled over it (cocoa-nuts--ed.), it vies for delicacy with the choicest custard. Pg. 166: ...pirao*... *The flour of mandioc, boiled. Pg. 202: The Senhor even assisted to skin my roasted _cameroens_, (shrimps,) protesting at the same time that they were miserable, and that I might have much better if I would only wait to have them caught and cooked. (OED has 1880 for "cameron"--ed.) Pg. 281: The trade in gum-elastic, cacao, sarsaparilla, cloves, urucu, and Brazil-nuts, is more peculiar. ("Brazil nut" is only from 1830--ed.) Pg. 285: It is not generally known that the triangular fruit, called in England and the United States the Brazil-nut, is only produced in the northern parts of the empire. It grows spontaneously in great abundance in the forests of the Amazon. The Portuguese call it "_Castanha do Maranham_,"--the Maranham chestnut, it haveing first been exported from that province. Pg. 325: What is gained by the miners and the _garimpeiros_, as the diamond seekers are called, together with small quantities of ipecacuauha, constitute the whole amount of exports from the province. (OED has "garimpeiro" from 1812, then 1869--ed.) Pg. 328: Its highest phase is represented in the character of the _vaqueiros_, or cattle proprietors. (OED has this from 1826--ed.) Pg. 334: The milk of the cows is converted into a species of soft cheese, known as the _queijo de Minas_. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 04:43:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:43:01 -0500 Subject: Csardas (1850); Gnocchi (1875) Message-ID: A few more items before I find people guilty of running red lights. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEMOIRS OF A HUNGARIAN LADY by Theresa Pulszky in two volumes London: Henry Colburn 1850 VOLUME ONE Pg. 55: In their Csardas (their national dance), they being by meeting and retreating, like two gallant adversaries in the lists of a tournament; but when at last they join, they turn together with such swiftness as if carried off by a hurricane. (OED has 1860 for "czardas," the Hungarian national dance--ed.) Pg. 59: ...the poppy seed dressed up into a pudding _makos macsik_ is highly relished, and forms the regular Christmas dish. In Germany there is no Christmas without a tree; in Hungary there is none without _makos macsik_. Pg. 67: Their cellar is provided with wine, and the ample tub with _kaposzta_ (pickled-cabbage), an indispensable ingredient in every Hungarian household. Pg. 105: *Bunda is the fur of a sheep's skin, the inseparable ornament and comfor of the Hungarian peasant. It is his cloak, and in case of need, his bed. Pg. 155: *Csarda is a tavern on the wide plain in Lower Hungary resembling a "Khan" in eastern countries. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ RAMBLES IN ISTRIA, DALMATIA AND MONTENEGRO by R. H. R. in one volume London: Hurst and Blackett 1875 Pg. 93: ...we shall take a _granita di caffee_ (a water-ice flavoured with coffee), and study the moving panorama before us,... Pg. 145: We first had an excellent Julienne soup, with abundance of grated Parmesan for such as appreciated it; next was served the "_fritto_," according to old Italian custom, which always enumerates the (Pg. 146--ed.) following dishes, to succeed each other in an orthodox dinner:--minestra, fritto, lesso, umido, arrosto, dolce, frutta, and. when in season, slices of melon, or fresh figs, to be eaten with thin slices of raw ham or Bologna sausage. (...) The _fritto_ was delicious (assuredly nowhere else can they fry as in Italy); it consisted of zucchettine and fiori, _i.e._, young expanded gourd flowers and very young gourds not bigger than an egg, cut in thin slices, dipped in the thinnest of batter and fried quite crisp and golden brown, and served dry without a particle of grease. Then came a dish of _gnocchi alla Milanese_, a superb dish, but difficult to explain; imagine the ingredients of a colassal _vol-au-vent a la financiere_, replete with livers, cocks' combs, unborn eggs, &c., &c., surrounded by a bastion of a peculiar preparation, made of maize-flour, and the whole bathed in tomato sauce and (Pg. 147--ed.) sprinkled right over with grated Parmesan, "_proprio do far riavere i morti_," as the _chef_ exclaimed to me after dinner, when, handing him a cigar, I complimented him on his gnocchi. Then came the _arrosto_ which consisted of veal and fowls, and after that a splendid _piatto dolce_ of stewed peaches in an artistic cage of caramel sugar, ornamented with strange devices of most delicious marzapane. (I found "gnocchi" in 1867 in BAEDEKER, but this 1875 adds to that. OED and M-W have the 1890s--ed.) Pg. 202: I remember it was, though I was not minding it much, being occupied at the time with listening to a man performing on the national instrument, the _guzla_ (pronounced goozla), whilst a girl was singing a low, monotonous, plaintive air. Pg. 232: We now all withdrew to the drawing-room for coffee and tea, _a la Russe_, without cream and with a slice of lemon. Pg. 252: They export immense quantities of a small dried fish "_scoranza_," much used in the neighbouring Catholic and Greek countries during their religious feasts;... Pg. 253: Castradina (dried mutton and goat hams), honey, wax, goat and kid skins to any amount, as also martin, fox, and hare skins, together with many substances I have forgotten. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 12 05:19:12 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:19:12 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Laurence Horn writes, regarding that word I said I use (as do several others): >> As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I think of >> it.... Oh, of course; that's how it *is* spelled. I used "skwoze" only to indicate pronunciation. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 12 07:40:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:40:38 EST Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) Message-ID: NYC The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), pg. 217. There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I don't think "NYC" here is New York Central. If you don't like that, I have others. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- EMPIRE CITY The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has 1838 for "Empire City" (New York City). These are from the American Periodical Series online. "Empire City" is allegedly in a 29-page review of TWO YEARS AND A HALF IN THE NAVY (the book I just read), in THE AMERICAN QUARTERLY REVIEW, December 1832, page 457+. I didn't see it there, though. The next citations are from THE KNICKERBOCKER. There's November 1836, pages 620+ and 631+. I didn't look at those yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- EMPIRE STATE The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has 1834. See also "The empire state" in THE FAMILY MAGAZINE. volume 2, pp. 71-72. I didn't check that out yet on the American Periodical Series. There's also the NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, July 1833, pg. 190 (continuing for 60 pages). I also didn't look at that, but I think it's on MOA-Cornell. April 1833, AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, pg. 418: Will the Old Dominion pocket this? Where are Mary Randolph, Goliah, Flying Dutchman, Zinganee, Trifle? and then the Empire state, with her Black Maria, O'Kelly, Medoc, Terror, Miss Mattie of New Jersey, and Mr. Craig's stable--... From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Nov 12 09:48:51 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 04:48:51 -0500 Subject: FW: Sexy "th" [and "whistled s"] Message-ID: Re Duane's comments, I don't find this to be an "MCP" thing at all -- just an observation to be tested against the evidence. Hence this posting. I also wish to add another phenomenon re how such women (beauty queen types) often say a sibilant "s" with a near whistle. I have noticed this for years, and from the same group that Duane describes. The "whistled s" is also used jocularly to mimic the (supposed) speech of male homosexuals. Many comedians have this in their routines. Again, there seems to be some sort of connection to effeminacy with this sound. I cannot say that I have noticed the phenomenon that Duane describes, but it is the case that models and others who aspire to make money or fame from their beauty are trained to smile often, and to smile very openly, showing both top and bottom rows of teeth. That the same folks would reveal other bits of oral anatomy does not surprise me. I throw this out so that others might respond with their observations, on both the "th" and the "s" issues. Looks like we're all gonna watch the next Miss America Pageant, right? Who knew that these ladies were the subject of dialect study? Maybe we should hold a springtime ADS meeting on the Boardwalk in Atlantic City. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Duane Campbell Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sexy "th" There is a phenomenon I have noticed for years, sort out of the corner of my mind. Most people form the "th" sounds by placing the tip of the tongue against the back of the teeth. As I talk through it, it can be the upper teeth or the upper and lower teeth together. Occasionally, though, I notice people making the sound by extending the tongue beyond the teeth, sticking it out slightly, visibly. Here's the MCP part. I have noticed this only in women, and particularly attractive women, more particularly women who have an investment in their attractiveness. Perhaps it is selective observation -- I may look more closely at attractive women. In fact, I know I do. But I have never observed this in men. The physical pronunciation characteristics, that is, not the part about looking at attractive women. In fact, I think I noticed this first in beauty contest winners being interviewed, and I think there may be a higher incidence in this unique cohort. Watch them say, "Thank you" (which they say a lot). The tongue very often protrudes. Is this manner of pronouncing the "TH' sounds specific to women? Has anyone observed it in men? D From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 14:04:40 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:04:40 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) In-Reply-To: <67.1e2f3c6.2b020a76@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 12, 2002 at 02:40:38AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > NYC > > The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' > PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), pg. 217. > There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I don't > think "NYC" here is New York Central. > If you don't like that, I have others. OK, let's see 'em. The "N.Y.C." appears in a column headed "Companies"; other locations in the column, just as much a part of New York City as those labelled "N.Y.C.", have a designation "N.Y. City", which suggests strongly to me that these are in fact names of railroad companies, and the "N.Y.C." must mean "New York Central". Jesse Sheidlower OED From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 12 14:43:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:43:33 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) In-Reply-To: <20021112140440.GB20086@panix.com> Message-ID: > > The MAKING OF AMERICA database, Mich-Books, has ONE HUNDRED YEARS' > > PROGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES (Hartford, Conn.: L. Stebbins, 1870), > pg. 217. > > There are five hits for "NYC." Yes, the thing is for railrods, but I > don't > > think "NYC" here is New York Central. > > If you don't like that, I have others. > >OK, let's see 'em. > >The "N.Y.C." appears in a column headed "Companies"; other locations in the >column, just as much a part of New York City as those labelled "N.Y.C.", >have a designation "N.Y. City", which suggests strongly to me that these >are in fact names of railroad companies, and the "N.Y.C." must mean "New >York Central". I think "N. Y. C." = "New York City" here. [Why one would want to see this abbreviation I don't know. Probably I missed the initial inquiry.] Each line seems to show the name of a railroad company, apparently followed in parentheses by the city of its operation (where it isn't already given by the company name). The city names are abbreviated as necessary to fit the column width. "N. Y. City" is used where it fits, otherwise "N. Y. C." is used; similarly for "Brooklyn" versus "Brook'n", "Pittsburg" versus "Pbg." In only a couple of cases is there something in parentheses which I don't immediately recognize, perhaps an alternative form of the company name [Is "N. Y. C." in this context somehow more interesting than "Phila." or "Pbg."?] -- Doug Wilson From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Nov 12 15:32:08 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:32:08 -0500 Subject: NYC (1870); Empire City (1832); Empire State (1833) Message-ID: Barry gives us the following passage: > April 1833, AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, pg. 418: > Will the Old Dominion pocket this? Where are Mary Randolph, > Goliah,Flying Dutchman, Zinganee, Trifle? and then the Empire > state, with her Black > Maria, O'Kelly, Medoc, Terror, Miss Mattie of New Jersey, and Mr. > Craig'sstable--... > The "Black Maria" referred to is probably the source of the term "black maria" meaning "paddy wagon", though this Black Maria was the daughter of a Black Maria who raced toward the end of the 1810s. But the appearances of "Black Maria" I posted here a few years ago from the mid-1830s are so far as I know still the earliest yet found. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Nov 12 16:27:19 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:27:19 -0800 Subject: Geoduck (1853?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021111144414.019a5fe0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Sorry to sound so out of it, but I'm trying to remember "Louie Louie" and > wondering why it would be significant to Washington--not to mention to Paul > Wellstone, for whom it was apparently a favorite song. Anyone know? This is from: http://www.louielouie.net./Louie_FAQ.html "Was "Louie Louie" ever made a state song in Washington or Oregon? Thanks in a large part to the folks behind KING-TV's "Almost Live" television show in Seattle, Washington, "Louie Louie" almost became the official state song of the state, edging out the current official state song, "Washington, My Home." While it never became the "official state song" of Washington, it was instead deemed the "official rock song" of Washington, inspiring other states to also declare "official rock songs." The state of Oregon tried to also make "Louie Louie" their state song, but it too, fell short." The song was written by Richard Berry (1935-1997) b. in Extension, LA. He wrote the song in 1955 and it was released as a single with Berry and The Pharaohs in 1957 on Flip Records. The Kingsmen (from Portland, OR) recorded in Louie Louie in 1963 in Portland. It had been recorded by The Wailers in 1961 and a few days after the Kingsmen by Paul Revere and the Raiders (band members from Idaho and Oregon). The song doesn't seem to have much historical connection to Washington at all, except for the KING-TV campaign. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 16:38:16 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:38:16 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For those of you who have ever had the joy of trying to untangle these terms as they are used in the US (along with city, village, etc), I highly recommending going to the USENET site comp.dcom.telecom and look for a series of four posts on Towns and Townships that were recently posted by Neal McLain. This is the most thorough discussion of these terms that I have ever seen. If you are not a regular user of USENET you can access it through Google via the Groups option, through which you can get to comp.dcom.telecom They were posted on October 19, 2002, and the title of the threads are "Towns and Townships - Part 1 of 4" and so on up to Part 4 of 4. You can either search on relevant terms to call them up, or you can hit the '25 previous threads' option 7 or 8 times to get to that timeframe. A very informative read. -- Steve From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Tue Nov 12 17:46:56 2002 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:46:56 -0600 Subject: NCTE on Grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: NCTE (Nat'l Council of Teachers of English) has put out a statement on teachers and grammar, with the help of the LSA. It's here: http://www.ncte.org/positions/grammar.shtml --Erin editor at verbatimmag.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Nov 12 19:18:46 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:18:46 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) Message-ID: Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but the next volume of DARE, Volume IV (P-Sk) is already being listed for sale on the book sites, with a release date of December 2002. Barnes and Noble, at least, indicates that it is in stock. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674008847/ http://new.frontlist.com/detail/0674008847 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0674008847 -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org gbarrett at americandialect.org American Dialect Society webmaster http://www.americandialect.org/ From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Nov 12 19:59:22 2002 From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:59:22 -0600 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) In-Reply-To: <90EAF452-F673-11D6-B95A-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: I'm delighted to say that we've just received our advance copies of Volume IV! The next issue of NADS will have a coupon for 20% off if you buy from Harvard Press; but in fairness to your pocketbooks, I should also say that Buy.com has a pre-publication discount of 37% (with no shipping charges) and Amazon.com has 30% off (also with no shipping charges). I don't know how long those prices will hold. The official pub date is December 15, but the release date is December 1, so if you want to buy from either of those web sites, I'd suggest doing it in November. At 02:18 PM 11/12/02 -0500, you wrote: >Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but the next volume of DARE, Volume IV >(P-Sk) is already being listed for sale on the book sites, with a >release date of December 2002. Barnes and Noble, at least, indicates >that it is in stock. > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674008847/ >http://new.frontlist.com/detail/0674008847 >http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ >isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0674008847 > >-- >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >gbarrett at americandialect.org >American Dialect Society webmaster >http://www.americandialect.org/ From stevekl at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 12 21:10:31 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:10:31 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of American Regional English, Volume IV (P-Sk) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021112135450.02e0c400@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: What kills me is when you look it up on Amazon, they have: >Customers who shopped for this item also wear: >Clean Underwear from Amazon's Eddie Bauer Store >Ladybug Rain Boots from Amazon's Nordstrom Store >Suede Headwraps from Amazon's International Male Store >Cheetah Print Slippers from Amazon's Old Navy Store How comforting to know we wear clean underwear. (I can see Erin in Ladybug Rain Boots, too...) -- Steve Kl. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 13 00:19:00 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:19:00 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: You-uns may recall that six months or so ago the question was raised here as to whether it was really possible, as is commonly said, that the term "upset" in the sense of an unexpected victory by a seemingly lesser opponent in a sporting event was not used until after 1919, when a colt named Upset beat Man o' War in the Sanford Stakes. The application seems obvious, yet the earliest citation in the OED for this particular sense is 1924, as I recall, with reference to a tennis match. Larry Horn objected that since Man o' War was just a 2 year old at the time, his defeat could not have seemed as astonishing as it later appeared. I rummaged around in some of the newspapers of 1919, the NYTimes and several others, and showed that in fact the sporting crowd was shocked and horrified at the outcome. It seemed to me then to be significant that none of the reports said anything like "Upset lived up to his name yesterday". I concluded "These accounts of the race suggest that the word "upset" was not familiar in the sense of "unexpected victory or loss" before this event. The World stated: "One might make all sorts of puns about it being an upset, but Man o' War in the opinion of nine out of ten observers was far the better colt in the race. . . . (August 14, 1919, p. 11, col. 1) The pun did not occur to the reporters from the Tribune or the Times. It occurred to the reporter for The Sun also: "Upset's victory was a big upset to all racegoers, even his famous trainer, James Rowe"; and "Golden Broom caused more than an upset", but he seems to have been thinking of "upset" as in "distress", for instance "upset stomach"." (Golden Broom was a colt thought to be nearly Man o' War's equal, and carried an identical weight as he did, 15 pounds or more more than any of the other colts, but he ran poorly and finished thoroughly beaten.) However -- I have been checking the NYTimes database for the 19th century for the word "upset" in the same story as the word "racing" and have found that the obvious application was indeed obvious to the horse-players of the latter 19th C. The earliest occurence was 1865. It and the next few appearances were in statements to the effect that that the outcome of a race "upset the calculations" of the experts and this seems the original idea. The earliest occurence I noted of "upset" appearing as a noun in this context was 1877. I didn't find the word at all used as a verb in a sentence like "This horse upset that horse." 1865: The racing was of the highest order; the contests being close and exciting, and the judgment of the knowing ones fairly upset by the unexpected results. New York Times, September 13, 1865, p. 5 1867: JACOB PINCUS, his clever trainer, smiles grimly when told of the dangerous representatives of the Holmdell string, and whistles with a strange self-consciousness of superior knowledge, as if he had heard and seen of as great pretensions being upset and blasted by a "dark horse" on previous occasions. New York Times, June 2, 1867, p. 5 1867: Notwithstanding the prestige of Mr. MORRIS' pair, that numerous class of betters termed the "fielders" maintained in some slight degree their proverbial characteristic to "take odds," and took many of the bets offered at one hundred to sixty, one hundred to fifty and at last one hundred to forty offered on MORRIS' pair against the field. They depended mainly upon the "dark horse" Baywood, sent on by Mr. ALEXANDER, the great Kentucky turfman, to represent his stable. . . . New York Times, June 5, 1867, p. 8. I note that the OED has "dark horse" in this sense from 1831, 1860 & 1865, but all from English sources, and its first U.S. source is 1884, so that this is an antedating for the U. S. The OED has "fielder" in this sense from 1844, from a U. S. source. 1870: It is quite possible that one of the despised outsiders, Sanford or Legatee or Flora McIvor may upset the calculations of the knowing ones, and triumph over the cracks. New York Times, June 17, 1870, p. 2 1872: There were many who considered Tubman so well in that he was liable to win, and consequently he was made a great favorite, but the calculations of the knowing ones were upset, for the winner turned up in Alroy, who sold lowest in the pools, who won a fast race in the mud. New York Times, June 7, 1872, p. 2 1874: The second affair, a dash of a mile and an eighth, for three-year olds, upset the calculations of the posted division, and the lucky McDaniel won the prize with Madge, beating the favorites easily in the fast time of 1:57 ?, equaling the time of Experience Oaks two years ago over the same course. New York Times, August 14, 1874, p. 5 1875: The second event was the four-mile dash, between Wild Idle and Rutherford, which resulted in a complete victory for the former, and upset the calculations of the wise-acres, who backed Rutherford strongly to win until just before the start when Wild Idle came into favor. New York Times, August 22, 1875, p. 12 1877: The programme for to-day at Monmouth Park indicates a victory for the favorite in each of the four events, but racing is so uncertain that there may be a startling upset. New York Times, July 17, 1877, p. 8 The other instances of "upset" being used as a noun are May 17, 1883, August 11, 1888, October 11, 1890 & November 18, 1890. 1881: Wyoming upset all calculations by winning the Nursery Stakes, being cleverly ridden by Shauer. New York Times, October 2, 1881, p. 5 1883: This proved another upset for the favorites, Rosary, a very cheap one, winning in 1:17 ?, Andrian second, and Eva S. third. New York Times, May 17, 1883, p. 2 1885: . . . the running this season has been so perplexing to the students of form as to upset the nicest calculations and theories of racing philsophers. New York Times, August 23, 1885, p. 5 1888: Long before the race had started . . . , it was common property among the select few that Referee was the "good thing" for the jumping race, and that it was one that could not be upset, as Mr. J. G. K. Lawrence's horse Burr Oak had upset the good thing in the hurdle race on Thursday. New York Times, July 8, 1888, p. 3 1888: Had Huntoon behaved himself he might have upset the calculations of the wise ones, for he showed a great burst of speed in his two breakaways. New York Times, August 1, 1888, p. 3 1888: Only two outright favorites won, but in most cases the winners were well backed and the only big upset was when Youghiogheny secured second position in the third race and paid his place backers $106 55 for a five-dollar ticket. New York Times, August 11, 1888, p. 3 1890: These two heart-breaking upsets coming in quick succession caused a veritable cyclone of adverse comment. New York Times, October 11, 1890, p. 3 1890: Kitty Van began the upsets in the opening dash by running in front of the field and winning as she pleased by three lengths from the favorite, Mabel Glenn, who only beat Lakeview out for the place after a hard struggle. New York Times, November 18, 1890, p. 2 So now I would be interested to find a source stating as a fact that this sense of the word "upset" was owing the colt Upset upsetting Man o' War. I have read it somewhere, but I don't remember where . I should check Flexner's "I Hear America Talking" and his other book, since I have them, but the statement must be in something I could have read in the 1950s. One of Charles Funk's books perhaps? Evidently "Spirit of the Times" is available in the American Periodicals database, and if so it might give an even earlier citation. Perhaps the NY Times of the 1850s and 1860s was not the newspaper to turn to if one was a horse-player. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 13 00:29:35 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:29:35 -0500 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: This following question was distributed to a group interested in NYState history. Perhaps one of you learned folk have some knowledge of this matter. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Morrow Date: Thursday, November 7, 2002 6:01 pm Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills > The message below was sent to the Mountain Top Historical Society > in Haines Falls (Greene County, NY) and subsequently forwarded to me, > requesting that I pass it along to someone who might be able to help this gentleman. > Pleasecontact him at if you can help. > Thanks. Patricia Morrow, Windham Town Historian > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > Delivered-To: mths at mhonline.net > From: "Marco Evenhuis" > To: > Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 > > Hi, > > I am interested in the remains of the Dutch language as a language of > colonists abroad. I visited your website and thought that maybe > your society could help me find some more information about the linguistic > heritage in the Catskill region. > > A friend of mine wrote me the following: "I used to own a house on a > mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were > born just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes > as a daily language when they were growing up." > > Since Dutch linguists never did any research in the area that was > once the colony of New Netherland, they assumed and still assume that what > a few local scholars wrote them, was correct: "The Dutch dialects of Jersey > Dutch, Albany Dutch and Mohawk Dutch, spoken in NJ en NY State, died out around > 1900. There are no speakers left." > > I find that this statement, that has been copied over and over > again into all popular and scientific publications about the Dutch language in > America, is incorrect and needs to be refined. Almost without any effort, I > already found some people who claim that a family member still spoke Dutch in > the 1950s and 60s. > > The reason that I write you this e-mail is to see if you can help > me with the following question: do you have any idea untill when (colonial) > Dutch was the home language for a significant part of Dutch descended families > in the Catskills region and do you know if there might still be some > people around that maybe still know (some of) the language? The latter sounds > more far sought then it actually is given the information that my friend > came up with as well as the fact that in 1998 I found a handful of speakers of > BerbiceCreole Dutch in Guyana, a language that was considered to > have already died out in the 1880s or 90s. > > If you cannot help me answer these questions, maybe you know > someone who can help me. I am not really interested in the help of 'professional > linguists', because they tend to follow the general assumption the > language already died out a century or at least half a century ago without any further > research. [Sorry about the sneer at professional linguists -- GAT] > Greetings from the Netherlands! > > Marco Evenhuis > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 02:06:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:06:36 -0500 Subject: Meeting-House Message-ID: A VOCABULARY OF WORDS IN THE HAWAIIAN LANGUAGE by Lorrin Andrews Lahainaluna: Press of the High School 1836 Pg. 37, col. 1: HA-LE-HA-LA-WAI, _s._ _hale_ and _halawai_; a meeting house, synagogue. (This book was in Columbia's Annex...The revised OED's first citation is this same author, from 1865. Is that going to be it? In all of DARE and OED, one citation from this book for "meeting house"? It's not my call, but c'mon!!...The American Periodical Series online is not finished yet. PUCK and LIFE and SPIRIT OF THE TIMES aren't online yet. It's going to get much better in the next six months. It's like the American Memory and Making of America databases in that you have to keep checking it for new additions--ed.) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 13 02:16:14 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:16:14 -0500 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at home & don't remember which one) _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 02:46:18 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:46:18 -0500 Subject: N.Y.C. (1869) Message-ID: This continues a search for the first use of the initials "N.Y.C." for New York City. It was usually "New York, New York." New York will thank me for this. Nah, who am I kidding? Columbia University has this book that I just read on microfiche: COMMEMORATIVE DISCOURSE. SERMON ON THE CHARACTER AND LABORS OF THE LATE REV. JEREMIAH S. LORD, D. D. Pastor of the Reformed Church, Harlem, New York City PREACHED IN THE HARLEM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, N. Y. C. April 18th, 1869 By E. H. GILLETT, Pastor of the Harlem Presbyterian Church. NEW YORK: BOARD OF PUBLICATION OF REFORMED CHURCH IN AMERICA, 103 FULTON STREET 1869 If that's not good enough for you, there are others that I _haven't_ looked at. For example, there's this: Current database: WorldCat Total Libraries: 1 Libraries with Item: "NYC plantsman's ledger, 1..."( Record for Item )Location Library Code NY NEW YORK BOTANICAL GARDEN LIBR VXG Record for Item: "NYC plantsman's ledger, 1..."( Libraries with Item ) Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries that Own Item: 1 Connect to the catalog at Columbia External Links: More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: NYC plantsman's ledger, 1793-1795 Author(s): Woodburn, Elisabeth. ; Fortieth anniversary catalog. Year: 1793-1795 Description: 1 case ; 36 cm. Language: English Abstract: Contains ledger of anonymous plantsman in New York City covering dates Mar. 11, 1793 to May 26, 1796. On front and back cover: "Day book". Also contains Fortieth anniversary catalog : a tribute to American horticulture / Elisabeth Woodburn, from whom the ledger was purchased; description on p. 28-29. SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Ornamental plant industry -- New York (State) -- New York -- History -- 18th century -- Sources. Gardening -- New York (State) -- New York -- History -- 18th century -- Sources. Named Person: Long, Charles R. (Charles Robert), 1936- Note(s): Title from spine of case./ Holograph./ "Given in memory of Charles R. Long, Librarian, New York Botanical Garden, 1972-1986"--Cover of case. Class Descriptors: LC: SB443.35.N4 Other Titles: New York City plantsman's ledger, 1793-1795. Document Type: Book Entry: 20010727 Update: 20010730 Accession No: OCLC: 47661215 Database: WorldCat From vyer at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 03:01:58 2002 From: vyer at EARTHLINK.NET (Leif Knutsen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:01:58 -0500 Subject: Changing (?) meaning of "Palestinian" Message-ID: >From what I can tell, the term "Palestinian" today refers to "an Arab refugee with origins in the former British mandate of Palestine," but I have often read that until some point (1948, 1964, 1967?), "Palestinian" referred to anyone who had been born in the British mandate, regardless of his/her ethnic or religious background. Have any of you come across examples that illustrate the shift in meaning of this word? Are you aware of what events marked such a change? Sincerely Leif Knutsen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 07:37:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:37:36 EST Subject: Awful Awful (Rhode Island Cuisine) Message-ID: Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES has an article on Rhode Island cuisine. It's a nice little piece of regional cuisine, but hey, this stuff has been done years ago. You guys didn't exactly discover it. No mention was made of "Rhode Island clam chowder," one Rhody's older regional dishes. I tried to look through the college humor magazine THE BROWN JUG, but neither the LOC nor the NYPL had the issues I needed. Although I posted the earliest "cabinet," there probably were foods like that advertised in THE BROWN JUG (1930s?). I had planned on taking a short trip to Johnson & Wales and Brown (both in Providence) during my extended break this month, before a longer-trip Christmas in Kenya balloon safari and a New Year's in Zanzibar. In the meantime, here are the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office records for Awful Awful: Word Mark AWFUL AWFUL Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: MIXED MILK DRINK CONTAINING CANE SUGAR, WHOLE MILK, DEFATTED MILK, COCOA, ARTIFICIAL COLOR, ARTIFICAL FLAVOR AND GELATINE. FIRST USE: 19390419. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19480331 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71558849 Filing Date June 10, 1948 Registration Number 0529783 Registration Date August 29, 1950 Owner (REGISTRANT) BOND'S ICE CREAM, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 564 VALLEY ROAD UPPER MONTCLAIR NEW JERSEY(LAST LISTED OWNER) NEWPORT CREAMERY, INC., THE CORPORATION BY MERGER, BY ASSIGNMENT RHODE ISLAND 208 WEST MAIN ROAD MIDDLETOWN RHODE ISLAND 02840 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ELLIOT A. SALTER Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20010217. Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20010217 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- Word Mark AWFUL AWFUL Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services. FIRST USE: 19930700. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930700 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 74557143 Filing Date August 4, 1994 Published for Opposition June 13, 1995 Registration Number 1917014 Registration Date September 5, 1995 Owner (REGISTRANT) Newport Creamery, Inc. CORPORATION RHODE ISLAND 208 West Main Road Middletown RHODE ISLAND 02840(LAST LISTED OWNER) NEWPORT CREAMERY, LLC LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY BY ASSIGNMENT RHODE ISLAND 35 SOCKANOSSET CROSS ROAD CRANSTON RHODE ISLAND 02920 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record LEONARD B KATZMAN Prior Registrations 0529783 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 12:55:42 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:55:42 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve I read through about half of those 4 postings. It IS VERY informative indeed, and his research and surmises are also quite good. I have a few quibbles as to wording and as to a couple of facts, but minor stuff really (e.g., it's not 100% accurate that Mass. has abandoned county govt.; "township" is not an operative word in Conn. or Mass., and perhaps elsewhere in the New England states). If you are interested in this stuff (!), take a look at the front matter to American Places Dict, which I did in the early 90s. You should find it in larger libraries; it is an Omnigraphics publication. I talked about much of this in there, but with a different method of organization. I will reply to his and point out some things I saw, but overall it is remarkably good and thorough. Perhaps the most interesting thing that the variation shows is that US states are really quite autonomous and did set up their own "customized" way of doing things. The oldest colonies/states -- Virginia, Mass., Conn., etc. -- were virtual republics, and esp. so in the immediate post-colonial, pre-Constitution years. Vermont, Texas, and perhaps others actually declared themselves as independent states at one time. Early on, pre-Constitution (under the Articles of Confederation), I understand that some states sent out ambassadors to foreign nations. So the fact that the states are all over the place as to how they "do" local government, while surprising to discover, is historically explicable -- and tells a lesson about what makes America tick. All for local rule (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), Frank From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Nov 13 14:17:13 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:17:13 -0500 Subject: New Jersey hoagie Message-ID: I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two of the news commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New Jersey hoagie" as opposed to those in South Philly. Any suggestions I could use to accompany my contribution would be gratefully appreciated. Regards David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Nov 13 14:23:34 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:23:34 -0500 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? Regards, David Barnhart From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Nov 13 16:01:33 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:01:33 -0500 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I've heard the construction all my life. Bethany (se TX etc.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 16:43:48 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:43:48 EST Subject: Latte Liberal Message-ID: We had "limousine liberals" in New York... Pelosi mocked as S.F.'s 'latte liberal' Conservatives say her rise helps them Marc Sandalow, Washington Bureau Chief Wednesday, November 13, 2002 Washington -- As House Democrats prepare to make eight-term Rep. Nancy Pelosi their leader, a good portion of the ruling pundocracy seem to be having a grand time questioning -- if not outright ridiculing -- the party's judgment for turning to a San Franciscan. "Are the Democrats about to go insane?" begins a feature on Pelosi in the latest edition of the "Weekly Standard," a popular journal among conservatives. The story, running beside a cartoon sketch of the Pacific Heights resident is headlined: "The Pelosi Democrats: Are they going to become the stupid party?" While Republican Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois and current Democratic leader Dick Gephardt of Missouri hail from the heartland, Pelosi's left coast home evokes stereotypes too powerful for political image-makers to ignore. "Latte liberal," screams the conservative National Review. "About as San Francisco as you can get without digging up Jerry Garcia," says the Australian Financial Review to its readers halfway across the globe. (...) From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 13 16:54:35 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:54:35 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "dark-thirty" in Arkansas. does that help? PR On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart > From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 13 16:58:25 2002 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:58:25 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks in here in Macon, Georgia, use the expression crack-thirty for a little past sunrise. best to all, --- Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR > affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I > don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or > other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 13 17:06:55 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:06:55 -0800 Subject: New Jersey hoagie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Hoagie" is the operative term in South Jersey (Philadelphia influence), but as far as I know "Jersey hoagie" is not a term that is widely used. (I never heard it growing up, but it's been 20 years since I lived there.) Googling turns up exactly one hit for "New Jersey hoagie" that eventually links to a sub shop in Tampa, Florida. Searching on "Jersey hoagie" gets only five others, all sub shops from around the US, none in NJ, but all apparantly run by expatriate South Jerseyans. From the menu descriptions, the "Jersey" or "South Jersey" hoagies are ordinary italian subs (Capicola, Mortadella, Salami, Provolone, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, and Italian dressing on a roll). No difference between them and what you would get in a Philly hoagie. It sounds like someone filled with local South Jersey pride is trying to make a distinction without a difference. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Barnhart > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:17 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: New Jersey hoagie > > > I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two > of the news > commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New > Jersey hoagie" > as opposed to those in South Philly. Any suggestions I could use to > accompany my contribution would be gratefully appreciated. > > Regards > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 13 17:55:50 2002 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:55:50 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more: I just came across a book title, _Dark Thirty_, published in 1984. best, --- Barnhart wrote: > One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR > affiliate just used > noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I > don't think I've ever > heard this before. Is it regional, social, or > other? > > Regards, > David Barnhart __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 18:05:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:05:12 EST Subject: New Jersey hoagie Message-ID: In a message dated 11/13/02 10:29:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM writes: > I just turned on the radio to the local NPR affiliate. Two of the news > commentators during their fund drive are discussing "New Jersey hoagie" > as opposed to those in South Philly. According to a display on the "Shipbuilding" exhibit in the Franklin Institute (museum) in Philadelphia, the "hoagie" is named after Philadelphia's "Hog Island" shipyards, for whose workforce the hoagie was a favorite item of sustenance. I've never been able to check out this claim, but if it is true then Philadelphians can argue that a hoagie is a sandwich constructed on the Pennsylvania side of the Delaware River and therefore "New Jersey hoagie" is an oxymoron. South Jersey will presumably have to be satisfied with salt water taffy, monkey bread, and other local foods not claimed by Pennsylvania. - Jim Landau (resident of South Jersey for 16 years) "Nothing good comes out of Atlantic City except an empty bus" From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 13 18:36:00 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:36:00 -0800 Subject: New Jersey hoagie In-Reply-To: <197.107ea5c3.2b03ee58@aol.com> Message-ID: > According to a display on the "Shipbuilding" exhibit in the Franklin > Institute (museum) in Philadelphia, the "hoagie" is named after > Philadelphia's "Hog Island" shipyards, for whose workforce > the hoagie was a > favorite item of sustenance. > > I've never been able to check out this claim, but if it is true then > Philadelphians can argue that a hoagie is a sandwich > constructed on the > Pennsylvania side of the Delaware River and therefore "New > Jersey hoagie" is > an oxymoron. South Jersey will presumably have to be > satisfied with salt > water taffy, monkey bread, and other local foods not claimed > by Pennsylvania. > > - Jim Landau (resident of South Jersey for 16 years) The Hog Island explanation is perhaps the most commonly touted one. I've done some checking and I doubt that it's true. I can't conclusively disprove it, but I've found a more likely one. Barry Popik has traced "hoagie" to 1945 and the variants "hoogie" & "hoggie" to 1941 (See ADS-L archives). The Hog Island shipyard only operated from 1917-25, and from 1920-25 it was in the process of shutting down and was not employing large numbers of workers. The brief period of operation and the gap in years before the term's appearance makes the Hog Island explanation unlikely. More probable is the claim of coinage by Al De Palma. De Palma owned a chain of sub shops in Philly and styled himself "King of the Hoagies." He claims to have coined the term "hoggie" in 1928 when he saw a friend eating one, so-named because he thought his friend was being a hog in eating the whole thing. De Palma opened his first sandwich shop in 1936, recalled the name he had given it and started selling "hoggies." The spelling later shifted to "hoagie," probably by competitors. (Eames & Robboy, AS, 1967) The De Palma 1936 sub shop opening is much closer in date to the term's earliest known appearance, his claim is orthographically consistent with the earliest forms, and it is semantically similar to the synonym "hero" in that it is a reference to the sandwich's size. From pulliam at IIT.EDU Wed Nov 13 18:51:34 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:51:34 -0600 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I use noon-thirty--most often, I think, in structures such as "between noon and noon-thirty." I live in Chicago (ten years), spent 12 years in central Missouri, and most of my life before that in Mississippi and Tennessee. Greg Pulliam >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? > >Regards, >David Barnhart -- - Greg http://www.pulliam.org From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Nov 13 19:01:25 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:01:25 -0800 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: I think it is regional. I have never heard it in my life, but I like it and will try it out on several of my classes. I'll see how they react. (Three girls eating lunch in my room have never heard it and say it sounds funny). Fritz Oregon and Minnesota >>> ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM 11/13/02 06:23AM >>> One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? Regards, David Barnhart From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 13 20:43:13 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:43:13 -0800 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used >noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever >heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I haven't heard it publically, but my circle of friends have long used noon:30 (though this is the first time I've written it down), O'God hundred, & God o'clock in the morning. Not midnight:30, though. Rima (in SF Bay Area) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 13 23:01:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:01:57 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow(1941); DARE is almost here; Shorter OED Message-ID: SUGAR ON SNOW A DROP IN THE BUCKET: THE STORY OF MAPLE SUGAR TIME ON A VERMONTFARM by Muriel Follet Brattleboro, VT: StepehnDayePress 1941 (No page number; photo caption--ed.) Sugar on snow is made by boiling syrup until it is thick enough to wax on snow. Pickles--to take the sweet taste out of your mouth--doughnuts and coffee are Vermont accompaniments. (This book, like so much of the new New York Public Library, was "off site" in New Jersey--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. _DARE_ IS ALMOST HERE--I purchased the next volume of DARE months ago on Amazon. I got anote today announcing that it's been shipped. I'll lookat it before I make a Popik "Potlach" Post. SHORTER OED--See the large article by Warren Hoge in Tuesday's NEW YORK TIMES...Over ten years ago, I copied all my "Big Apple" material, copied all of Gerald Cohen's "Big Apple" material, and walked into the NEW YORK TIMES building. I asked to speak to someone about it. I was given a telephone,and I spoke to Warren Hoge. He told me that there was no one I could talk to--mail all my material directly to him. I did. It's been ten years, and he wasn't even kind enough to return my material in a self-addressed stamped envelope. Hoge was the first of about a dozen TIMES people who wouldn't even respond...Now, he gives a commercial publisher from England free publicity? DAVID SHULMAN'S BIRTHDAY--It's his birthday this month, and his home is throwing a monthly birthday party for everyone tonight, and he's _requiring_ me to attend. He told me that there will be plenty of women there, but "they'll all be senile." From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Nov 14 00:59:18 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:59:18 -0600 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: One more variation: the Army, and possibly the other services, have been using "Oh" dark thirty for years for the time before dawn (actually, probably before BMNT.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. Regards, David Barnhart From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Thu Nov 14 01:07:16 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:07:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone Message-ID: I can't afford to buy a new copy of the OED ($777 on ebay is the cheapest I can find), so I'm looking for a used set (or a really really discounted new set). Does anyone know where I might find a set for not too much money? I'd like the 2nd Edition. So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that we seem to be on the eve of war. The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. The daisy cutter is, for those who don't know, a 12,540 pound bomb, officially designated BLU-82 (and also nicknamed 'big blue 82'). During the gulf war, the Assad Babyle Iraqi tank (a version of the Soviet T-72) was nicknamed the 'Dolly Parton' due to it's rounded reinforced turret. Seems a certain sheep was not the first item to be named after the famous country singer. Anyone know of any other Parton-inspired names? Personally, I laughed when I heard the term 'dumb bombs' - regular gravity-guided bombs - as the counterparts to the newer laser-guided 'smart bombs.' Assigning intelligence to a bomb always seemed somewhat absurd to me. Paul Dickson's book War Slang has a good summary of terms from the civil war through the gulf war. Thanks, Philip Trauring From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 03:36:12 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:36:12 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow(1941); DARE is almost here; Shorter OED In-Reply-To: <31B0F3AE.08EBF237.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 06:01:57PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >Now, he gives a commercial publisher from England free publicity? Really? Which one? Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 03:51:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:51:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 08:07:16PM -0500, Philip Trauring wrote: > I can't afford to buy a new copy of the OED ($777 on ebay is the > cheapest I can find), so I'm looking for a used set (or a really > really discounted new set). Does anyone know where I might find a set > for not too much money? I'd like the 2nd Edition. If it's just the text you're interested in, you can get either the Compact Edition (requires a magnifying glass) or the CD-ROM, if you're burdened with a Windows machine. I think either of these could be had for less than $300 if you look. > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. Jesse Sheidlower OED From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Nov 14 04:26:25 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:26:25 -0700 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat Message-ID: I'm passing along this inquiry from a colleague. Rudy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:24:44 -0700 From: Andy Barss Subject: word sources sought I was recently talking to a professional wood finisher, who asked me what the source of two terms was, the first of which is an odd extension of a term from finishing, the other of which is a compound whose origins he (and I) would like to understand. If you can shed any light on these, please drop me a line. (#1) "[give x a good shellacking]" which means in comon parlance to either (a) defeat decisively, or (b) to batter (beat physically, all over). This is somehow extended from the noun 'shellac' (also spelled "shellaq"), which is a transparent, alcohol soluble wod finish derived from the excretions of a beetle native to India. (It's also edible, and has major use in the food and pharmaceutical industries; you eat it on coated pills and M&Ms). The beetle is known as the lac beetle, and the usual source for 'shellac' is 'shell lac', the product in shell form (there's also stick lac, and buttonlac). The two possible sources that might make sense for the slang usage is either (a) when one coats something with shellac, it's a complete covering, so by extension from the completeness componnet we'd get 'to completely' do something, or (b) a dark red dye is made from shellac, and beating someone physically bruises them. This is all guesswork, so if anyone has something to add please email me. (#2) "spit coat" which means to give something (a tabletop, say) an exceedingly thin coat of a finish, often as a prelude to another, thicker coat of something else. My best guess is that this derives from the sense of 'spit' meaning to rain or snow very lightly, but that's just a guess. No dictionary seems to list it. Thanks -- Andy Barss From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Nov 14 06:38:06 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:38:06 -0800 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: <20021114035116.GC28071@panix.com> Message-ID: > > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. > > That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that > was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very > powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific > use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- > early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites > on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's > _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. The BLU-82 has been around since 1970. I don't know exactly when the term "daisy cutter" was applied to it, but I would guess shortly after its introduction. Technically, the term "daisy cutter" applies to the fuze assembly, a 38" rod that detonates the bomb about a meter off the ground (hence the name)--maximizing blast effect and minimizing crater (the fuze and bomb were designed to clear helicopter landing zones in the Vietnamese jungle, but are also very good at smashing up bunkers). The name "daisy cutter" transferred from the fuze to the bomb itself. RHHDAS has "daisy cutter" as a USAF bomb from 1966-67. This is probably a reference to 10,000 lb M121 bombs, WWII leftovers, that were also used in Vietnam to clear landing zones. The BLU-82 was invented to replace these as supplies of the old bombs were used up. BLU stands for Bomb, Live Unit. I also recall a Saturday Night Live sketch from the mid-70s (the one that asked the immortal question, "What If Napoleon Had B-52 At the Battle of Waterloo," with John Belushi as Napoleon and Dan Ackroyd as a B-52 crewmember.) In the sketch, Ackroyd refers to, IIRC, air-to-surface missiles as "daisy cutters." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 07:08:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:08:12 EST Subject: North West slang (1865) Message-ID: JOURNAL OF A TOUR ON THE NORTH WEST COAST OF AMERICA IN THE YEAR 1829 CONTAINING A DESCRIPTION OF A PART OF OREGON, CALIFORNIA AND THE NORTH WEST COAST AND THE NUMBERS, MANNERS AND CUSTOMS OF THE NATIVE TRIBES by Jonathan S. Green New York: Chas. Fred Heartman 1915 (Originally published in the Missionary Herald, November 1830) A "miss" of a book from Jonathan Green. Here's an author (and ADS-L poster) who has delighted us in the past with his books on slang and jargon. He visited the North West Coast of America in 1829. Do I get a "potlatch"? Do I get a "muckamuck"? DO I GET A EVEN ONE SINGLE "GEODUCK"?? No! Don't buy this book! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- VANCOUVER ISLAND AND BRITISH COLUMBIA: THEIR HISTORY, RESOURCES, AND PROSPECTS by Matthew MacFie London: Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts, & Green 1865 Not written by Jonathan Green, but what's with the publisher? Could Longmans and the Greens get together a little? Pg. 163: FISHERIES (...) _Herrings_... _Hoolakans_ ascennd the streams in April in dense shoals. Their approach is indicated by the presence of sea-gulls swooping down to devour them, and causing the banks of the river to echo their screeching. This species are (Pg. 164--ed.) about the size of a small herring... (DARE has 1914 for "hooligan," with various other spellings given. There's a long discussion here--ed.) Pg. 165: The _hook-bill_ and _silver_ or _spring salmon_... Pg. 166: The _humpback_ species... Pg. 167: _Halibut_... The _smelt_... The _haddock_ and _whiting_ exist, and the _dog-fish_... Pg. 168: A certain species of _sea perch_... _Rock_, _skate_, _bass_, _anchovy_, and _flat fish_, may be added to this list. _Shrimps_ and _prawns_, too, are extensively caught in the neighbourhood of Victoria. (No "tuna," no "geoduck" here in 1865--ed.) Pg. 415: The slang in vogue in the mining regions is imported mainly from California, and is often as expressive as it is original. "Guessing" and "calculating" are exercises of perpetual occurrance. If one have the best of a bargain, he is said to have got "the dead wood" on the other party (Pg. 416--ed.) in the transaction. A mean and greedy man is "on the make;" and where a "claim" is to be disposed of, the proprietor is "on the sell." A conceited man thinks himself "some pumpkins;" and when any statement is made, the exact truth of which is doubted, it is said to be "rayt(illegible copy--ed.) a tall story." When a claim disappoints the hopes of those interested in it,l it has "fizzled out." Credit is "jaw-bone," and in one store on the road to Cariboo, the fullsize jaw-bone of a horse is polished, and suspended on the wall, with the words written under: "None of that allowed here." The ground of the allusion is evidently the product resulting from the motion of the jaw bei9ng the only security a needy purchaser has to offer. Another expression for wanting credit is "shooting off the fat." Deceit in business is "shananigan." A good road, ste(illegible--ed.) boat, plough, dinner, or anything else you please, is "elegant." When one has run off to avoid paying his debts, he has "skedaddled," or "vamoosed the ranch;" if hard-up, he wants to "make a raise." Owing to the remoteness of British Columbia from other centres of British population, it is called the "jumping-off place," another phrase for the end of the world. Any i(illegible) likely to arise from a given chain of events, is seen "st(illegible)ing out." When two parties are playing into each other's hands, with a sinister object in view, it is a case of "log-rolling." When the conduct of any one renders him likely to a whipping or something worse, he is "spotted." Pg. 420 (MINERS' TEN COMMANDMENTS): Neither shalt thou destroy thyself by getting "tight," nor "slewed," nor "high," nor "corned," nor "half-seas over," nor "three sheets in the wind," by drinking smoothly down the "brandy sllngs," "gin cocktails," "whisky punches," rum toddies," nor "egg nogs." Neither shalt thou suck "mint juleps," nor "sherry cobblers," through a straw; nor gurgle from a bottle the "raw material," nor "take it neat" from a decanter;... Pg. 430: The _potlatch_ (or ceremony of bestowing gifts) usually occupies a couple of days... Pg. 431: n a commercial apect, too, this system of _potlatching_ is highly objectionable, for the goods thus trandferred from year to year are not appropriated for the most part ot useful purposes;... From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 09:56:42 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:56:42 -0500 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >(#1) "[give x a good shellacking]" > > which means in comon parlance to either ... defeat decisively, or ... to > batter .... There is also "shellacked" = "intoxicated". (Ingestion of shellac by alcoholics is not unknown, but I doubt its relevance.) >The two possible sources that might make sense for the slang >usage is either (a) when one coats something with shellac, it's >a complete covering, so by extension from the completeness >componnet we'd get 'to completely' do something, or (b) a dark >red dye is made from shellac, and beating someone physically >bruises them. I find (a) conceivable, (b) unlikely. Here are my guesses; I find any of them plausible, or a combination. (1) Derivative of German "schlagen" (= "strike") or equivalent. Cf. supposed etymology of "schlock" (from Yiddish). Cf. "Our team really got clobbered", "I really got hammered on schnapps last night", "They really gave him a pounding". (2) Onomatopoeic (cf. "smack", "whack", etc.). (3) [The books seem to favor this one] Shellacking being the last step in finishing something; thus something shellacked is something completed, something which has been "finished off". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 12:16:01 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:16:01 -0500 Subject: etymological pun [off topic] Message-ID: Barry P said: >> DAVID SHULMAN'S BIRTHDAY--It's his birthday this month, and his home is throwing a monthly birthday party for everyone tonight, and he's _requiring_ me to attend. He told me that there will be plenty of women there, but "they'll all be senile." << No, Barry, not quite right. The women will be anile. But seriously, please wish David Shulman "Happy Birthday" from all his ADS colleagues. Frank Abate From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Nov 14 12:32:23 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:32:23 -0500 Subject: Shellac (v.) & spit-coat Message-ID: Just a guess on "spit-coat"--could it be related to "spit-polish" in which a small amount of shoe-polish is applied [w/spit] to dress shoes to give a glossy coating suitable for passing inspection? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 13:25:00 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:25:00 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: Wright's "English Dialect Dictionary" shows "canoodle" = "donkey" from Somerset, with a reference in "Notes and Queries" dated 1879. Wright also says "canoodle" is used "fig. of one who makes love foolishly or 'spooneys'". I could not find any other instances of "canoodle" = "donkey". However, in Clive Upton, David Parry, J. D. A. Widdowson, "Survey of English Dialects: The Dictionary and Grammar" (Routledge, 1994), p. 66, there is this entry: <> This is apparently represented by a single response from southern Devonshire (according to the map in the associated dialect atlas). As I understand it, somebody transcribed the word as "cornutor" and later "canuter" was chosen as a better spelling. I couldn't find any other instances of "canuter". Surely this must be the same as "canoodle" for "donkey". It is commonly thought that words for "donkey" are often originally given names, e.g., "jack[ass]", "jenny", "dick[y]", "neddy", possibly "moke" [from "Margaret"], possibly "cuddy" [from "Cuthbert"], and possibly "donkey" itself [from "Duncan" (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. So maybe "canuter" is from "Knud"/"Canute". [But if one is willing to hark back to King Canute, why not a little farther: a southern word might date from the Roman days and "canuter" might be from Latin "canutus" = "[the] gray [one]" or so. Similarly "moke" from "maccus". Just my idle notions; perhaps some of the experts can explode them at a glance.] As a possible irrelevancy, note that "cornutor" means "one who cornutes"; to cornute someone is to put horns on him, i.e., to cuckold him. Which brings to mind another possible connection: isn't a canoodler often at least a suspected cornutor? Here is a 'nonsense' use of "canoodle": "The King of Canoodle-Dum", by W. S. Gilbert (1869, I think): <> The whole ballad can be read at (e.g.) http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/bab_ballads/canoodle_dum.txt [The citizens of Canoodle-Dum are "Canoodlers".] Now of course Gilbert is a big name, and I suppose he may have been big enough back then to popularize "canoodle" to the extent that uncommon similar colloquialisms might have been altered slightly to match it: for example, perhaps (*)"canute" = "donkey" didn't really match "canoodle" so well before. And conceivably the spelling "canoodle" was favored on the basis of this poem (earlier citations have "conoodle"). "Canoodle-Dum" would seem to be "noodledom" modified to fit the meter, with or without prior knowledge of "conoodle", which is recorded from 1859. Maybe the Somerset "canoodle" shown by Wright represents conflation of originally distinct "canute(r)" = "donkey" with the verb "canoodle" = "smooch". On the other hand it's not impossible that earlier "canoodle" = "donkey"/"fool" was verbed, parallel with "spoon[ey]" or with "fool [around]" in the sense of "make love" ... this would be in line with the tentative etymology in MW3. But still, I sure like "canoodle" = "knudeln"! -- Doug Wilson From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Nov 13 21:53:16 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:53:16 -0500 Subject: Towns and Townships Message-ID: It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy of this statement, re "legally correct". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:55 AM Subject: Re: Towns and Townships > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > Frank > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Nov 14 14:34:38 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:34:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for a copy of the OED - and some military slang to atone In-Reply-To: <000701c28ba8$64fffda0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 13, 2002 at 10:38:06PM -0800, Dave Wilton wrote: > > > So as not have this be solely a personal posting, I thought I would > > > mention some thing I read recently about military slang - being that > > > we seem to be on the eve of war. > > > > > > The 'daisy cutter' bomb which became so famous during the war in > > > Afghanistan, was coined such during it's use in the gulf war. > > > > That's not the case. Apart from the fragmentation bomb of WWI that > > was called a _daisy cutter,_ the term was applied to a very > > powerful conventional bomb during the Vietnam War. Even the specific > > use, referring to the BLU-82, is found well before the Gulf War-- > > early 1980s at latest, but probably earlier; I don't have the cites > > on hand. But I think Barry Popik found an example in Fynes Moryson's > > _Itinerary_ of 1617; you could ask him. > > The BLU-82 has been around since 1970. I don't know exactly when the term > "daisy cutter" was applied to it, but I would guess shortly after its > introduction. Now that I'm back in the office, I see that we have an example of _daisy cutter_ referring specifically to the BLU-82 from 1971. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Nov 14 15:41:13 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:41:13 -0500 Subject: cross-checking In-Reply-To: <20021114143438.GB28318@panix.com> Message-ID: Has anyone heard a slang sexual sense for "cross-checking"? It might be AAVE slang. Ben From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Nov 14 15:42:41 2002 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:42:41 -0700 Subject: noon thirty Message-ID: From: Barnhart : One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used : noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever : heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? I've been using noon:30, noon o'clock, noon:17, &c. (along with midnight:30, midnight o'clock, midnight:17, and so on) since at least my mid-teens. (Born and raised in Southern Maryland, b. 1970.) I could never remember whether the noon hour matched up with PM and the midnight hour with AM or the other way around, so it was an easy way to disambiguate things like 12:30 without the danger of getting it radically wrong. Or at least that's the explanation I give when people ask me about it. I have no idea whether it's a completely ad hoc explanation or not, particularly since I don't only use it in cases where there's a danger of ambiguity. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 16:10:16 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:10:16 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships Message-ID: Bob F commented on my posting as follows: >> It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy of this statement, re "legally correct". << What I meant by "legally correct" was that, per my reading of the Constitution and historical precedents at the time of the secession of Southern states, they had every right to do so. Nothing I found in the US Constitution disallowed secession. What DID disallow it was Lincoln's strong-willed political stance, backed by the armies of the Union. Armies always trump constitutions. And with the conclusion of that war, a precedent was set. Now I expect it would be very hard, if not unconstitutional, for a state to secede. Needless to say, the Confederacy was not, so to speak, politically correct. Frank Abate > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > Frank > From douglas at NB.NET Thu Nov 14 16:28:32 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:28:32 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good show. I didn't believe the "Upset" story, but now I can substantiate my position. Here is a Web mention of the myth about "Upset", from about a year ago. (I found the assertion about the word origin here and elsewhere on the Web but without attribution.) http://www.seabiscuitonline.com/guestbook14.htm <<... for years it has been lore in racing that the use of the word to mean the unexpected defeat of a favorite originated with Man o'War's loss to the racehorse Upset. It's a great story, but unfortunately, it doesn't hold up. According to Dorothy Ours, who is currently writing the definitive Man o' War biography, Chain Lightning, this race has nothing to do with that use of the word "upset." She was able to locate numerous incidences in which the word was used by journalists in this sports context prior to that race. Indeed, when Man o' War lost, journalists covering the race pointed out the remarkable coincidence that he lost to a horse named Upset.>> -- Doug Wilson From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 14 18:07:08 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:07:08 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: I only saw the stories in NYC newspapers and the Washington Post, and thought while I was reading them that the writers, with the sports-reporter's sure grasp of the obvious, should have made more play on the coincidence, if "upset" had had that established sense. But the woman Doug Wilson cites has certainly read much more than I had. I still would like to know when the idea that that race gave the word that sense originated. Perhaps we can suppose that the sense gained currency outside of horseracing through Upset's upset of Man o' War, so that it seemed like a novelty to those who only followed tennis or football. The Historical NYTimes is moderately tedious to search, but perhaps a check for "upset" and football or upset and tennis before and after 1919 might show something. The searching I did in the latter 19th C for upset and racing turned up some stories about boat races, but there I think probably the reference was always to a literal overturning of one of the boats. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Date: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:28 am Subject: Re: "Upset" in horseracing > Good show. I didn't believe the "Upset" story, but now I can > substantiatemy position. > > Here is a Web mention of the myth about "Upset", from about a year > ago. (I > found the assertion about the word origin here and elsewhere on > the Web but > without attribution.) > > http://www.seabiscuitonline.com/guestbook14.htm > > <<... for years it has been lore in racing that the use of the > word to mean > the unexpected defeat of a favorite originated with Man o'War's > loss to the > racehorse Upset. It's a great story, but unfortunately, it doesn't > hold up. > According to Dorothy Ours, who is currently writing the definitive > Man o' > War biography, Chain Lightning, this race has nothing to do with > that use > of the word "upset." She was able to locate numerous incidences in > whichthe word was used by journalists in this sports context prior > to that race. > Indeed, when Man o' War lost, journalists covering the race > pointed out the > remarkable coincidence that he lost to a horse named Upset.>> > > -- Doug Wilson > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 14 19:10:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:10:17 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114112324.04ad9a10@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: OK, so this all leaves me with the question with which I believe I started the original thread some time ago: If the term "upset" meaning an unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one of the biggest upsets of all time? Even if the owner chose the name because he had some dreams of the horse someday doing something terrific, what are the chances that the horse would ever be in the position to pull off an historic win, or that the horse would be good enough to pull off the win but not so good as to make it not an upset? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 20:03:52 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:03:52 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one tends to say "the Coast." Peter R. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 20:05:23 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:05:23 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114063805.049c7480@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. Still does for me. Rima From snatchcat at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 14 20:02:51 2002 From: snatchcat at YAHOO.COM (Seth Thatcher) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:02:51 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent advances in hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more popular and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf children will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign language. Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means of communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. The study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will remain a part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price of ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the discussion group on this issue. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Nov 14 20:21:18 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:21:18 -0500 Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: Physical geography seems to vary in its use of "the." At least in my case, "the" is always used for oceans and seas: the Atlantic Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea. I rarely use it for lakes: Lake Michigan, Moosehead Lake (but compare the Great Salt Lake, its salinity perhaps conferring sea-like attributes). I don't refer to sounds very often, so I don't have an established practice. Rivers seem to go either way: either Mississippi River or the Mississippi River is fine with me. There does seem to be some difference between the two, but I can't articulate quite what it is. John Baker From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 14 20:23:42 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:23:42 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred > to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a > background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the > reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the > Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is > pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the > woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of > the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up > to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're > all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one > tends to say "the Coast." > > Peter R. > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 20:35:58 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:35:58 EST Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: In New York, we say "Long Island Sound", without a "the". Steve Boatti From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Thu Nov 14 21:08:41 2002 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:08:41 EST Subject: night before Halloween Message-ID: This response is a little late, but in Cincinnati the 30th was called "damage night". That was for all the pranks described in this list. We also had "penny night" the night before that. We went out with our bags or cups and knocked on doors yelling "penny night" and collected money. I'm not sure what the justification for that was, but it was a pretty good deal. Lois Dr. Lois Nathan Maitre de Conf?rences Universit? du Havre Le Havre, France From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 14 21:29:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:29:18 -0500 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0800 11/14/02, A. Maberry wrote: >For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would >only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage >is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really >isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. > >allen >maberry at u.washington.edu That's how Long Island Sound works around here (southern Connecticut), or on the Island (where I used to live). Either "They live on Long Island Sound" or "They live on the Sound", but never (as Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. larry > >On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > >> Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred >> to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a >> background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the >> reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the >> Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is >> pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the >> woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of >> the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up >> to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're >> all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one >> tends to say "the Coast." >> >> Peter R. >> From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Nov 14 21:57:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:57:51 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > That's how Long Island Sound works around here (southern > Connecticut), or on the Island (where I used to live). Either "They > live on Long Island Sound" or "They live on the Sound", but never (as > Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. > > larry Good one! Lexis-Nexis has a couple of cites for "the Puget Sound" (admittedly I only searched "Puget Sound"+"grunge" and in the process came up with: Denver Rocky Mountain News, May 7 1994: "... Kemp couldn't find the Puget Sound from Pier 70." Seattle Times, Feb. 22 1993: "...the city on the Puget Sound." In my experience it works as described for Long Island Sound: "I have a house on Puget Sound." [unfortunately not true] "I have a house on the Sound." "He couldn't find the Puget Sound from the Bremerton Ferry." *"I have a house on the Puget Sound." ?"Anyone who falls in the Puget Sound will die of hypothermia in minutes." Certainly the last sentence depends on stress. I don't think there would be any question about "Anyone who falls into the *PUGET* Sound [as opposed to some warmer sound] will die of hypothermia in minutes." allen maberry at u.washington.edu From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:07:31 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:07:31 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Steve Boatti points out) "They live on the Long Island Sound". What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). Seems like a natural. > > larry I'll bet there are a few groups like that, but Allen Maberry is likely to know more about them. And don't forget the occasional "Pungent Sound," although the place is still (I hope!) far from being a Superfund site. Peter From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:11:41 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:11:41 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants Message-ID: My friend Fred Farrior, who teaches ASL here, sent this on in reply to the query about cochlear implants. PR Hi, It is same story in the past. Have you seen the videotape "Sound and Fury"? I think this article might be interesting for you. Fred 13 PEOPLES DIED BY COCHLEAR IMPLANTS Government Warns on Ear Implants Thursday, July 25, 2002 Last updated at 11:25:53 AM PT THE ASSOCIATED PRESS WASHINGTON At least 13 people with cochlear implants to restore their hearing have come down with meningitis, including two preschoolers who died, the government said Thursday - warning that the implants might allow an infection to fester deep in the ear. In addition to the U.S. illnesses, health authorities are investigating at least another dozen meningitis cases and seven deaths among cochlear implant recipients in other countries. The Food and Drug Administration so far has found no evidence that the implants are contaminated, stressed medical device chief Dr. David Feigal. Any material implanted in the body, from heart valves to artificial joints, can allow infections to fester that the body otherwise could clear, he explained.Some deaf patients have inner-ear abnormalities that predispose them to meningitis by letting bacteria build up near the brain even without a cochlear implant. But the implants may prove an additional risk factor, Feigal said. So the FDA on Thursday issued an alert to doctors urging them to report any additional uspicious meningitis cases - and urging that they aggressively treat ear infections in patients who have cochlear implants and make sure that child patients are properly vaccinated against meningitis.The meningitis cases appear to be caused by a bacterial infection that can be prevented with a vaccine called Prevnar, which the government now recommends that all children get by age 2. The 13 U.S. patients ranged in age from 21 months to 63 years old. The two children who died were between ages 2 and 3. Meningitis is most dangerous to the very young and the elderly. About 22,000 Americans have cochlear implants, which send auditory signals to the brain to restore hearing in people with certain types of hearing loss. They are supposed to get preventive antibiotics during the implantation, the FDA said. Quoting Peter Richardson : > I thought you two might like to weigh in on this one. Just write to > the > "To:" address below. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:02:51 -0800 > From: Seth Thatcher > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? > > I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent > advances in > hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more > popular > and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts > speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf > children > will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign > language. > Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means > of > communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. > The > study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that > regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will > remain a > part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still > wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our > society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price > of > ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the > discussion group on this issue. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://w From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 22:13:33 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:13:33 -0800 Subject: Cochlear Implants (addendum) Message-ID: Fred added this: Peter, I forgot to add: More Deaf mainstreaming students with cochlear implants transfer OSD [Oregon School for the Deaf] from the public schools and I have noticed them using ASL instead of the speaking. I have asked them if they like the implant or not. Some of them like it for noisy environment and difficult to listen what other people talking about. Other students don't like because their hearing parents want them to use it for their communications. It is similiar to me using my hearing aid for noisy environment that all. It is same story for 100 years. Fred From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Nov 14 22:22:26 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:22:26 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships Message-ID: My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the people. My preference is the latter. That view avoids much of the rhetoric about state's rights (which the Supreme Court chose to ignore\d in the Bush v Gore case out of Florida). Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Abate To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: FW: Towns and Townships > Bob F commented on my posting as follows: > > >> > It's my understanding there is some considerable dispute over the accuracy > of this statement, re "legally correct". > << > > > What I meant by "legally correct" was that, per my reading of the > Constitution and historical precedents at the time of the secession of > Southern states, they had every right to do so. Nothing I found in the US > Constitution disallowed secession. What DID disallow it was Lincoln's > strong-willed political stance, backed by the armies of the Union. Armies > always trump constitutions. And with the conclusion of that war, a > precedent was set. Now I expect it would be very hard, if not > unconstitutional, for a state to secede. > > Needless to say, the Confederacy was not, so to speak, politically correct. > > Frank Abate > > > > > > (and the fact that the Confederate states were legally > > correct, but wanted for guns and ammo factories), > > > > Frank > > > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:14:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:14:30 -0500 Subject: noon thirty In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #>One of the commentators on the Albany, N.Y., NPR affiliate just used #>noon-thirty (or noon:30) in reference to time. I don't think I've ever #>heard this before. Is it regional, social, or other? # #I haven't heard it publically, but my circle of friends have long #used noon:30 (though this is the first time I've written it down), #O'God hundred, & God o'clock in the morning. Not midnight:30, though. I've heard "oh-dark-thirty" = 12:30 a.m. I thought it was military slang. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:24:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:24:23 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: #>... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. # #Still does for me. # #Rima Same here. I seem also to have somehow picked up an occasional (< 20%??) pronunciation with low back rounded "o", which is not part of my usual phonology at all. -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Nov 14 23:27:21 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:27:21 -0500 Subject: FW: Towns and Townships In-Reply-To: <01b601c28c2e$1b15e840$74d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Robert Fitzke wrote: #My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, #whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." # #The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and #thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the #people. Would those who want to discuss this topic, which is clearly off topic for this list, please take it to private email? -- Mark A. Mandel From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Nov 14 23:45:55 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:45:55 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound Message-ID: Got this response from a friend in Seattle, which seems to confirm what some of the rest of you have said: >Haven't actually heard this, but I'll start listening. What's normal for me >is: > >The Sound >The Puget Sound area > >I rarely use Puget Sound, unless describing the geography. Seattle lies >bewtween Lake WA and Puget Sound. Etc. What do otherfolks say/hear? > >If it's starting here, I'm sure you'll soon hear about "the SF Bay." Yikes. > >bill From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 14 23:55:44 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:55:44 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > >If it's starting here, I'm sure you'll soon hear about "the SF Bay." Yikes. Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? Maybe it's already here... PR From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 00:01:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:01:20 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? #Maybe it's already here... "San Francisco Bay Blues". -- Mark A. Mandel: 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s folkie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 00:02:24 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:02:24 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: #Wasn't there a song about "walkin' with my baby down beside the SF Bay"? Actually I answered too quiickly. It's I got the blues from my baby down by the San Francisco Bay -- Mark A. Mandel, old folkie overdue for his dinner but unable to pull himself away from the keyboard From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 00:47:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:47:03 -0500 Subject: "Oiee" Clams, "Potlach" in NORTHWEST COAST (1857) Message-ID: THE NORTHWEST COAST; OR, THREE YEARS' RESIDENCE IN WASHINGTON TERRITORY by James G. Swan New York: Harper Brothers 1857 An important book with a "Chenook" glossary. Is this cited by OED or DARE? I tried to get Elwood Evans' WASHINGTON TERRITORY (Olympia, 1877). Try that on NYPL's CATNYP. There's no call number! So I had another day of conferences with librarians... Pg. 47: ...salmon-berry, or wild raspberry (_Rubus spectablis_) Pg. 61 illustration (caption): OYSTERMEN WAITING FOR THE TIDE. Pg. 85: The large clams and quahaugs are more prized by the Indians than oysters. The large clam called by them metar or smetar are found in the sand about a foot deep. (...) The quahaug or hard-shell clam, called by them clolum, is found near the surface, and in some locations perfectly bare. Pg. 86: My favourite method of cooking these shell-fish was to make a chowder of the quahogs, and after cleaning the great sea clam, roll them in meal, and fry them with salt pork. The long sand clam or razor-fish was also cooked by frying. Another clam, resembling the common clam of Massachusetts in shape, is also found, and usually eaten raw by the Indians. This is called by them aryuk, and, fried in butter, is very nice. Pg. 103: The Chenook salmon... Pg. 140: There are several varieties of fall salmon, the most plentiful of which is the hawk-nosed, or hook-billed, or dog-tooth salmon (for it has all those names). Pg. 165: There is many a poor fellow who has lost his health by living on "flippers" fried in pork fat because he could not get any saleratus, that might have saved the troubles consequent upon sickness in the miner, had he known this simple recipe. Pg. 174: Crows, eagles, owls, blue jays, and various beasts and reptiles, are the representations of bad spirits, or devils, and are called _skookums_. (Various entries in a Chenook or Jargon Glossary follow--ed.) Pg. 412: Ar'yuck, small clams. Pg. 413: Chett'low, oysters. Clo'lum, quahaug clam. Metar or sme-tar', large sea-clams. Pg. 416: Boston, _Eng._, American Clo-Clo, _Che._, oysters. Pg. 418: Muck'a-muck, _Che._, food, to eat. Pg. 419: Oiee, _Che._, small clams. (The origin of "geoduck"??--ed.) Oo'moor, _Che._, large sea clams. Pot'lach, _Che._, give or gift. Si-wash', _Fr._ (sauvage), Indian. Skoo'-kum, _Che._, strong. Skoo-kum' or Sku-kum', _Che._, evil spirits. From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Nov 15 00:57:48 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:57:48 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I got the blues from my baby down by the San Francisco Bay aha. And the word of interest here is _the_. Are there other such bays/sounds/harbors? From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Nov 15 01:00:55 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:00:55 -0800 Subject: heb'm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a phonetics question. In the common [hEbm] pronunciation of _heaven_, there's something like a naso-pharyngeal release (?) between the [b] and the [m]. Articulating this thing (whatever it is--a consonant?) with any force can be almost uncomfortable. Is it kosher to think of this as something akin to svarabhakti? Peter R. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Nov 15 01:14:24 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:14:24 -0800 Subject: the Puget Sound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All One of the ways I can tell whether somebody who is speaking is a "real" Puget sound native is whether or not they refer to the body of water in question as "the Puget Sound" or not. If they do say "the Puget Sound", I'm almost certain they came from somewhere else. Recently. It's true that people around here tend to refer to Mt. Rainier as "the Mountain", but no native who hasn't completely lost his or her senses would ever refer to "the Puget Sound". It even sounds weird to me. Anne G "A. Maberry" wrote:For some reason, it doesn't sound odd to me, although I think that I would only use "Puget Sound" or, the equally common "the Sound." Maybe the usage is just an extension of "the Sound" by some Seattleites. There really isn't much room for confusion as to which "sound" is meant around here. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: > Recently three of my students who are from the Seattle area have referred > to "the Puget Sound." And this morning on Morning Edition there was a > background comment about "the Puget Sound"--a comment made not by the > reporter, but by someone native to the area. Now, I've always said, "the > Puget Sound area," but otherwise just "Puget Sound": Puget Sound is > pretty, they live on Puget Sound, etc. Has anyone in this neck of the > woods noticed what seems to be a recent phenomenon? (Or any other neck of > the woods, for that matter) It's doubtful that these three students are up > to something, hatching a plot to drive me crazy; and I know that they're > all natives of the area and not from east of the mountains, where one > tends to say "the Coast." > > Peter R. > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 01:37:03 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:37:03 EST Subject: the Puget Sound Message-ID: In a message dated 11/14/2002 4:30:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > What > I'm wondering is if anyone has tried using "The Puget Sound" for > Seattle-style music (neo-grunge?). I did circa 1982, but unfortunately only in an "apa" (a pre-electronic "mailing list") so only about a dozen people saw it. The inspiration was reading about a strict noise ordnance [sic] in Seattle, so strict that "no self-respoecting rock band could accept it". So I postualated a "soft rock" group called "the Puget Sound". My contribution was part of a running gag that started when someone wrote about "Sidney the Weretrain" ("were" as in "werewolf") which inspired such comebacks (not from me) as "Am-trak", "has-been sleeping car", and "ought-to-have-been diner". There was also a gag about how a certain Old Testament translator from "the" Puget Sound area was so sly that he became known as the "Everett Fox". Seriously, Albemarle Sound, Pamlico Sound, Block Island Sound, and any others I can think of do NOT take "the". In Puget Sound you have "Hood's Canal" (no definite article" but "the Tacoma Narrows". The bridge crossing that last body of water is officially "the Tacoma Narrows Bridge" but unofficially "Galloping Gertie number 2". Similarly "the Mississippi River" but "Old Man River." a short catalog of bodies of water takes the definite article when used as nouns rivers seas, including "the Tappan Zee" (in "the" Hudson River) oceans narrows (as in "the Verrazona Narrows", known to New Yorkers as "the Narrows") deltas currents (the Gulf Stream) gulfs straits do not take the definite article) lakes (including Great Salt Lake, at least for me) lochs sounds harbors creeks runs (Virginia term for a small river, e.g. "Bull Run") waterfalls falls (Baltimore sense of a stream filled with rapids, as "Jones Falls" in downtown Baltimore) cataracts (except for the First etc. Cataract on the Nile) bayous springs sinks (at least not Humboldt Sink in Nevada) sloughs fiords sometimes yes sometimes no Hood's Canal versus the Erie Canal Jamaica Bay versus the Bay of Bengal (perhaps the "of" makes the difference) - Jim Landau (probably all wet) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 01:38:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:38:41 -0500 Subject: Meeting-House In-Reply-To: <5800B58C.4E407E86.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > call, but c'mon!!...The American Periodical Series online is not > finished yet. PUCK and LIFE and SPIRIT OF THE TIMES aren't online yet. > It's going to get much better in the next six months. It's like the > American Memory and Making of America databases in that you have to keep > checking it for new additions--ed.) Barry, do you find, as I do, that American Periodical Series has a huge percentage of false hits for the earlier years, like 90%? I find this substantially detracts from its usefulness. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Nov 15 03:05:35 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:05:35 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! from the West Coast Patty At 06:24 PM 11/14/02 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > >#>... (apparently "donkey" earlier rhymed with "monkey")]. ># >#Still does for me. ># >#Rima > >Same here. I seem also to have somehow picked up an occasional (< 20%??) >pronunciation with low back rounded "o", which is not part of my usual >phonology at all. > >-- Mark M. From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Fri Nov 15 02:35:17 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:35:17 -0400 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: <20021114200251.63456.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have to say that if I had to choose between ending deafness and losing sign language, I'd end deafness. Let's not forget that those who are deaf can also not appreciate music nor hear a car horn (perhaps before an accident). Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot speak?) will continue to use sign language... Philip Trauring At 12:02 PM -0800 11/14/02, Seth Thatcher wrote: >I read an article in Issues and Contraversies over the recent advances in >hearing aid technology. Cochlear implants seem to be getting more popular >and made more affordable for the general public, and some experts >speculate that the continuation of implants within new born deaf children >will eventually end deaf culture with the elimination of sign language. >Is this feasible? It seems that sign language is a constant means of >communication throughout all society, and not confined to the deaf. The >study also mentioned that other experts in linguistics claim that >regardless of how many implants get performed, sign language will remain a >part of the children and families who have the procedure. I'm still >wavering on the issue: while I find it fascinating that one day our >society could end deafness, it seems that it is not worth the price of >ending a language. I was curious as to the opinions of those in the >discussion group on this issue. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 04:40:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:40:59 -0500 Subject: American Periodical Series online; Scampi(1883?) & Bagel(1908?) Message-ID: AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE Yes, there are a _huge_ number of false hits on the American Periodical series online. The first "iced tea" was the one I gave here. The earlier "hit" wasn't a hit. Take "canoodle"--please! 12 early false hits! Take "shyster." Over 50 hits before Gerald Cohen's first citation, but none of them are for "shyster"! It's a tool. The Gerritsen Collection search engine is poor, too. But APS is going to get much better with the added publications, and it's definitely worth checking, despite the false early hits. All that time I wasted today looking for "canoodle" in medical publications! AH!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. SCAMPI?--The book FISHES OF THE ADRIATIC SEA (1883) is "off-site." The New York Public Library is closed on Sunday and Monday, and the offsite fellows don't work on Saturday, so I should have an earlier "scampi" sometime next millennium. BAGEL?--Look at the book THE SHORES OF THE ADRIATIC: THE AUSTRIAN SIDE--THE KUSTENLANDE, ISTRIA, AND DALMATIA (New York: E. P. Dutton and Company, 1908) by F. Hamilton Jackson. There's a photo with the caption: "HERZEGOVINIAN WOMEN AT A BAKER'S SHOP IN RAGUSA _Frontispiece_" Ragusa is Dubrovnik. The women are posing by a circular bread thing that looks an awful lot like a "bagel." Or maybe it's a "donut"? Take a look. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 08:52:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 03:52:53 EST Subject: Gusla, Kollo (1848); Turban Cowboy; DARE's here! Message-ID: I'll probably visit Temple University this Monday. The library's Urban Archives has clippings files of the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, the PHILADELPHIA BULLETIN, and the PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS. I need better Philadelphia coverage because ProQuest Historical Newspaper won't be doing Philadelphia for at least another year. I'll look for an earlier "hoagie" in the Temple University student publications. DARE'S HERE--It's here! Only about two days after Amazon sent me an e-mail!...I can't invite a woman to this apartment, but I looked under "poor boy," and it's nice to know that this mess is the "Popik Collection." VIKRAM CHATWAL, TURBAN COWBOY--The headline in this week's (18 November 2002) NEW YORK OBSERVER. It's a nice pun on the movie URBAN COWBOY, which is a little old by now. Chatwal is a rich playboy in the big city, but besides him, who else does this term apply to? DALMATIA AND MONTENEGRO by Sir J. Gardner Wilkinson London: John Murray 1848 OED has "gusle" from 1869 and "kolo" from 1911. I has posted an 1851 "kollo." I finished just volume one of two. Pg. 35: ...their favourite _gusla_. (...) ...and the name _guslar_, or player on the cithara, being applied to a "wizard," appears to argue the use of it in the days of Pagan superstitions. Pg. 169: They call it _collo_*, from being, like most of their national dances, in a _circle_. *Collo, or Kollo, signifies "circle." There is another _collo_, danced by women at marriage fetes, which I shall mention afterwards. Pg. 393: These, as well as the _Scoranza_, and the _Castradina_, or mutton hams, are principally for re-exportation to Venice and other places. Pg. 428: ...smoked mutton (_Castradina_) salt fish (_Scoranza_)... Pg. 440: ..._gusla_*... *Pronounced gussla, or goosla. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Nov 15 12:34:17 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:34:17 -0500 Subject: "We the People" v. "states' rights" Message-ID: Bob F pointed out: >> My comment was based, primarily, on the first sentence of the Constitution, whic says, "We, the People....do ordain and establish this Constitution..." The debate is whether the Constitution is a creature of the states, and thus, the individual states could, arguably, secede, or a creature of the people. My preference is the latter. That view avoids much of the rhetoric about state's rights (which the Supreme Court chose to ignore\d in the Bush v Gore case out of Florida). << This is an excellent point, in my (non-lawyer) view. I had not considered the fact that the whole thing starts with "We the People of the United States . . ." One can still make a case for states' rights, though, or at least, historically, states have, and it has been an important topic for discussion down through they years. Notably, a few weeks ago the New Jersey Supreme Court ruling allowed Lautenburg to run for US Senator in lieu of Torricelli, who had withdrawn from the race after the deadline to file for candidacy. The US Supreme Court chose to pass on this case, making the NJ ruling stand -- a wise decision, I think. So did they do it our of respect for NJ "states' rights" or the rights of the people of NJ? I suppose it is a purely academic issue. Please excuse if this is too much off-topic. Frank Frank Abate Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS) Consulting & Lexicographic Services (860) 349-5400 abatefr at earthlink.net From AHami93942 at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 14:06:42 2002 From: AHami93942 at AOL.COM (Anne Marie Hamilton) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:06:42 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: In a message dated 11/14/2002 9:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one > who cannot > speak?) will continue to use sign language... Also, those who can't afford the technology, particularly in developing countries... From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 15 14:21:02 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:21:02 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: <1B024933.308866A1.09D19963@aol.com> Message-ID: Other factors: 1) Signers who sign ASL (or some other version of sign) do not know the grammar of English. Hearing is only a first step for them. (Signers who uses "Signed English" may have some advantage.) 2) BUT. Signers do not have a sound-based phonological system (and the degree to which sign phonology will transfer to acoustic/auditory phonology is unknown). In short, an implant will let you hear "noise," but, although noise is a prerequisite for an acoustic/auditory phonology, it is only the foundation. In other words, signers who can "suddenly hear" may be at even more of a language learning disadvantage than a hearing adult learner of a second language. dInIs PS: Of course I have simplified (e.g., as regards a motor theory of speech perception), and I have not taken sociocultural factors intro consideration at all (as others have already done). In a message dated 11/14/2002 9:35:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU writes: > Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one > who cannot > speak?) will continue to use sign language... Also, those who can't afford the technology, particularly in developing countries... -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 15:05:41 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:05:41 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114190227.00ab9ec0@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 PM -0800 11/14/02, Patty Davies wrote: >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > >from the West Coast > >Patty > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal morpheme boundary.) larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 15:32:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:32:19 EST Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > morpheme boundary.) I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or /'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this happens). However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last syllables rhyme. Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South Jersey for 33 years. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 15 15:40:31 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:40:31 EST Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense Message-ID: At a meeting at work yesterday we discovered that a typo had changed the word "formal" to "format". Everybody at the meeting seemed to be a little rattled by this type, because of the connection with "to format one's hard disk", which is a very disastrous thing to have happen to one's PC-compatible. Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 15:59:26 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:59:26 -0500 Subject: "Cat sliver" Message-ID: The sound of two trees rubbing together in the wind was called a "cat sliver" by a childhood friend of my husband's in Wyoming more than half a century ago. Is anyone familiar with this expression? A. Murie From patty at CRUZIO.COM Fri Nov 15 16:02:46 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:02:46 -0800 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: <73.291c701d.2b066d83@aol.com> Message-ID: This ("honky") is again different for me. I say and am sure I have always heard: "donkey" /'dawnk ee/ "monkey" /'muhn kee/ "honky" /'hawnk ee/ and you pronounce "honky" as /'huhn kee'/ which is "hunky" to me. So you pronounce "honky" and "hunky" the same way? And I also find it *very* interesting that the politically incorrect words rhyme. I wonder how widespread the pronunciation is so that this rhyming is the case. You would think this would have been picked up on for a sociolinguistic study (oooh, a new research project :) ). Patty At 10:32 AM 11/15/02 -0500, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > > morpheme boundary.) > >I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or >/'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable >boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this >happens). > >However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I >can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, > /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last >syllables rhyme. > >Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South >Jersey for 33 years. > > - Jim Landau From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 16:07:57 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:07:57 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: Jim Landau writes: >However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >rhymes with "monkey". ~~~~ If I heard "honky" rhyming with "monkey"( as I pronounce it), I would assume it was "hunky" or sexy. I pronounce the vowel in "donkey," " honky" & "wonky" exactly the same, as nearly as I can tell. A. Murie From jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA Fri Nov 15 16:08:37 2002 From: jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA (James McIntosh) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:08:37 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:35 PM 11/14/02 -0400, you wrote: >Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot >speak?) will continue to use sign language... > >Philip Trauring mute, or deaf-mute Jim McIntosh From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Nov 15 16:28:37 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:28:37 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honkey Message-ID: For me donkey & monkey rhyme with schwa or caret [^] as the vowel but honkey is [a] or [U] Brooklyn-born but lived on LI 1942-1958 _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 15 16:39:09 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:39:09 -0500 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0500 11/15/02, sagehen wrote: >Jim Landau writes: >>However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >>rhymes with "monkey". >~~~~ >If I heard "honky" rhyming with "monkey"( as I pronounce it), I would >assume it was "hunky" or sexy. >I pronounce the vowel in "donkey," " honky" & "wonky" exactly the same, as >nearly as I can tell. >A. Murie Ditto, except for "donkey", which as noted I rhyme with "monkey" (with a caret/schwa, while "honky" and "wonky" have a script [a]). But I think I may have started out with that vowel in "donkey" too, switching to "monkey" later on in life. larry From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Nov 15 17:25:21 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:25:21 -0500 Subject: Databases: was Meeting-House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:38 PM 11/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Barry, do you find, as I do, that American Periodical Series has a huge >percentage of false hits for the earlier years, like 90%? I find this >substantially detracts from its usefulness. To Barry and Fred, and anyone else concerned with the accuracy of the databases. With the 100th anniv. of the teddy bear, and The Washington Post's claims that they started it all with the Berryman cartoon (what about the Bear named Theodore Roosevelt aka Teddy at the Bronx Zoological Park in 1901?) I did some searches on ProQuest Times Full text. The Times ran a series called the Roosevelt Bears starring Teddy-G and Teddy-B by Paul Piper starting on January 7, 1906. I wasn't trying to antedate anything (actually I was doing it for my mom - the certified Bear repair-woman). Anyway, the point is that this series ran from Jan 6 to about June 22 in what looks to be 28 installments every Sunday. Approx. 16 of the installments seem to be missing. Makes me wonder what else isn't there. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 15 17:27:47 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:27:47 -0500 Subject: Donkey/monkey/honky Message-ID: Patty Davies on the West Coast writes: >> This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! And Larry Horn says, >> Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But >> "honky" rhymes with neither... Also on the East Coast, I agree with Larry. But the preferred (though not the only) dictionary pronunciation (AmHer, RH) of "donkey" *does* rhyme it with "honky"--and not with "monkey." --Dodi Schultz From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Fri Nov 15 17:41:37 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:41:37 -0500 Subject: "Upset" in horseracing Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asks: "If the term "upset" meaning an unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one of the biggest upsets of all time?" I think that the fact that Upset upset Man o' War is an example of the working out of the Shandy-Lack Theory of Nomenological Determinism. You will all recall that Tristram Shandy's father believed that a well-chosen or ill-chosen first name determined whether a child's life would be happy or troubled, and had chosen the name Trismegistus for his baby boy. But by some confusion which I right now forget, the baby was baptised Tristram, whence all the sorrows he was to later know, starting with, but regrettably not ending with, the falling window-sash that caused such a dire amputation when he was still an infant. This preiminary version of the Shandy-Lack theory is spelled out in Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy, for those of you who want to study it further. David Lack was an English ornithologist -- his first book was The Life of the Robin -- who refined the theory and extended it to last names in a paper that enumerated the ornithologists whose last names were the names of species of birds, or parts of birds, as for instance Wing. I read this essay many years ago, and forget where. He published a book in 1964 called Enjoying Ornithology, which isn't available to me now, but sounds a more likely source than any of his other books. Thus, the Shandy-Lack Theory of Nomenological Determinism holds that by the very force of its name, a horse called "Upset" would be destined to achieve the greatest upset in horse-racing history, and such proved to be the case. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Shapiro Date: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:10 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" in horseracing > OK, so this all leaves me with the question with which I believe I > startedthe original thread some time ago: If the term "upset" > meaning an > unexpected victory does not derive from the Man o' War loss, isn't it > remarkable that a horse named Upset pulled off the biggest, or one > of the > biggest upsets of all time? Even if the owner chose the name > because he > had some dreams of the horse someday doing something terrific, > what are > the chances that the horse would ever be in the position to pull > off an > historic win, or that the horse would be good enough to pull off > the win > but not so good as to make it not an upset? > > Fred Shapiro > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale > University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------- > From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Nov 15 18:54:23 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:54:23 -0800 Subject: Databases: was Meeting-House In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021115120743.00b39528@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: > Approx. 16 of the installments seem to be missing. > Makes me wonder what else isn't there. I've noticed with the MOA database, much of the problem is with the scanning and optical character recognition of the texts. The information is there and is correct in the graphical representations of the pages, but the search engine works off the scanned text, and the optical character recognition makes a lot of errors. You can see this easily with MOA because that service allows you to look at both the scanned text and a picture of the original. For example, I was searching for "Y'all" and kept getting hits for "Wall" (very frustrating). The OCR had transliterated W into Y' in many instances. (Hint: If you are searching MOA for a word that begins with W, try searching for it as Y') I would bet that many of the other databases suffer from a similar problem. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Nov 15 19:04:22 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:04:22 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. A. Murie From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Nov 15 22:30:40 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:30:40 -0600 Subject: "shyster" in American Periodical Series Online Message-ID: Barry, I don't understand this. How can there be over 50 hits on "shyster" before "my" first citation without any of them being for "shyster"? Also (for ads-l), to give credit where credit is due, the earliest two attestations of "shyster" (July 29, 1843, spelled "shyseter," "shiseter") and several later ones were spotted not by me but by Roger Mohovich (pronounced Muh-HOH-vich), former librarian at the New York Historical Society. I presented them in my first monograph on "shyster," with full acknowledgment to Mohovich for his discovery. Jerry >At 11:40 PM -0500 11/14/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE > > Yes, there are a _huge_ number of false hits on the American >Periodical series online. > The first "iced tea" was the one I gave here. The earlier "hit" >wasn't a hit. > Take "canoodle"--please! 12 early false hits! > Take "shyster." Over 50 hits before Gerald Cohen's first >citation, but none of them are for "shyster"! > It's a tool. The Gerritsen Collection search engine is poor, >too. But APS is going to get much better with the added >publications, and it's definitely worth checking, despite the false >early hits. > All that time I wasted today looking for "canoodle" in medical >publications! AH!!!! From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Nov 15 23:25:29 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:25:29 -0500 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Philip Trauring wrote: #I have to say that if I had to choose between ending deafness and #losing sign language, I'd end deafness. But the right to choose lies properly with each deaf person. Hearies like me may only have and ... uh ... voice opinions. #Let's not forget that those who are deaf can also not appreciate #music nor hear a car horn (perhaps before an accident). # #Also, those who are dumb (is there a more PC term for one who cannot #speak?) will continue to use sign language... Mute. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 16 00:23:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:23:46 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >A. Murie Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking (but not Spanish-speaking) world. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 16 01:19:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 20:19:10 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Obituary for Allen Walker Read in The Times [of London] Message-ID: I'd forgotten (if I ever knew) that AWR was born in Winnebago, not to be confused with being born in a Winnebago. Larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2925. Mon Nov 11 2002. ISSN: 1068-4875. Subject: 13.2925, All: Obituary: Allen Walker Read Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:33:23 +0000 From: J E Joseph Subject: Obituary: Allen Walker Read (1906-2002) Allen Walker Read, the doyen of American English studies, died on 16 October 2002 at the age of 96. The obituary in today's Times (London) can be accessed on http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,60-472767,00.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2925 --- end forwarded text From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Nov 16 05:55:45 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:55:45 -0700 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" (unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). Rudy (Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas (Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution open in one hand. The implications are clear.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 16 08:39:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 03:39:19 EST Subject: Kotch 'em going & coming (1906); Pinata Message-ID: KOTCH 'EM GOING & COMING ACROSS THE PLAINS NAD OVER THE DIVIDE: A MULE TRAIN JOURNEY FROM EAST TO WEST IN 1862, AND INCIDENTS CONNECTED THEREWITH by Randall H, Hewitt New York: Argosy-Antiquarian Ltd. 1964 (Originally published in 1906) Pg. 18: Like the negro in the story they "Kotch 'em going and kotch 'em coming." (What negro in what story? How old is the sucker terminology "they get you coming and going"?--ed.) Pg. 101: Conversation around these neighboring camps ran at a lively rate, and a continued jargon of voices mingled in one uninterrupted stream of words. There was always enough interest to keep up an unflagging current of noisy talk. We heard more western phrases during those neighborly associations than ever before got to our ears. Such expressions as "packing water," "right smart," "right peart," "freuit," for all kinds of table sauce; "right smart of wood," "right smart chance," "quite a few," "carry the horses (or oxen) to water," "buckut," for water pail, and numerous other colloquialisms to an endless degree. (See the new volume of DARE for "right smart" and "pack-water"--ed.) Pg. 249: Such prairies as we found to-day, and to be met with everywhere, are called "Holes" in Rocky Mountain phraseology. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PINATA William Safire's column this Sunday discusses "pinata." Lead story! I posted right here the first citation for "pinata," so I looked for my name. If the first citation comes from a reference work such as OED, Safire almost always cites that. Citing my work would be helpful to his readers. It would be helpful to a fellow ADS member. And it wouldn't cost him anything at all. Here's a case where he'd have to go out of his way NOT to help me. My work is never mentioned. From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Nov 16 10:53:16 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 04:53:16 -0600 Subject: Canoodle: odds and ends Message-ID: As sort of a midwesterner (Illinois & Missouri, but I've been in the Army for a long time, which may be a vocational dialect), I would rhyme donkey with honky but not monkey; monkey I rhyme with Hunky (semi-derogatory for the Hungarians I married into.) Small "h" hunky, as attractive, I have heard only as a feminine expression about men. Dave Hause ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! > > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal > morpheme boundary.) I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or /'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this happens). However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last syllables rhyme. From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:46:57 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:46:57 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense Message-ID: Speaking as someone with over 25 years in the software industry, I have to say this usage is new to me. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com James A. Landau wrote: >At a meeting at work yesterday we discovered that a typo had changed the word >"formal" to "format". Everybody at the meeting seemed to be a little rattled >by this type, because of the connection with "to format one's hard disk", >which is a very disastrous thing to have happen to one's PC-compatible. > >Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new >sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? > > - James A. Landau > systems engineer > FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) > Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA > From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:47:19 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:47:19 -0500 Subject: "squz" Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > P.S. As to orthography, why not spell it "squoze"? That's how I > think of it. (It's my standard jocular preterit for "squeeze".) Gee, and I thought "squoze" was standard English. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com > From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM Sat Nov 16 15:55:11 2002 From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:55:11 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: My wife is the only person I ever knew who pronounces donkey to rhyme with monkey. She's from the Bronx, so maybe it's a New York City phenomenon. However, I've known lots of New Yorkers but never heard that pronunciation from any of them. Then again, the word donkey doesn't come up in conversation all that often. Marc Sacks msacks at world.std.com Rudolph C Troike wrote: > For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed >dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do >wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is >common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). > > Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, >Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could >never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had >the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the >pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" >(unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). > > Rudy > >(Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas >(Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the >Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution >open in one hand. The implications are clear.) > From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Nov 16 19:04:41 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:04:41 -0600 Subject: Cochlear Implants: The Death of Sign Language? Message-ID: I doubt that the implants will become that "universal" (cost factors have already been brought up, but there also remain questions of culture and attitudes towards "fixing" something that is -- in many deaf people's opinions -- "not broken"). They only work for some types of hearing loss, and the huge problem with (possibly fatal!) infections remains; notwithstanding the wisdom of introducing yet another series of "vaccinations" that may or may not really work, into the system of a very small child who does not have full immune system functioning yet. The question of culture is huge. You can never "cure" all types/causes of deafness with surgery, and there is also a wide spectrum of responses to a diagnosis of deafness (which happens, it is my understanding, on averagee by age nine months in Israel, and by 40 months in the US), ranging from intensive acoustic traingin of what hearing the child may have, and sole use of spoken language and speech training, to eschewing all hearing aids and raising the child mono-culturally deaf and using only ASL. Most parents, of course, end up somewhere in the middle of those extremes, utilizing ASL, speech training, lip reading, and some degree of hearing aids. But I have perosnally know people on both extremes also. -- Millie From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Sat Nov 16 19:20:31 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:20:31 -0600 Subject: Dutch language in the Catskills Message-ID: I have not been able to follow all of the replies here for the last week or so, so forgive me if I bring up something someone else already has.... I have worked a fair amount among the Old Order Amish on their use of both English and "Plain German", and I have heard (and seen, in many sources) Plan Pennsylvania German, referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch" many many times. I assume that (likely because of the German word for German, which is "Deutsch") a lot of the people claiming they were raised hearing "Dutch" spoken in New York State and elsewhere on the East Coast, were actually hearing (at best) dialects that mixed German and Dutch, and were referred to as "Dutch" because that is how the speakers labeled their own language (most Amish, when they say ""Deutsch" pronounce it more like "Deitch"). Many Amish, even though their spoken language is definitely more like German than Dutch, still call it "Dutch". I cannot understand spoken Dutch, but I can understand spoken "Plain German". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at home & > don't remember which one) > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From oliversplace at MSN.COM Sat Nov 16 21:02:38 2002 From: oliversplace at MSN.COM (Jeff Oliver) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:02:38 -0600 Subject: artical Message-ID: I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of Journalism. I'm writing an artical about researchers who use google to track usage or other aspects of English. If you can help or know someone who can, please respond. I appreciate it. Jeff _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Nov 16 23:17:38 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:17:38 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Jeff Oliver writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Uh, for starters.... From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 16 23:52:59 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:52:59 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard 'donkey' with a schwa from time to time in Ohio but haven't pinned it down to subregion yet. The other day an African American announcer on the local NPR affiliate used it with ref. to a coffee shop called "Donkey Cafe" (don't ask me why). At 10:55 PM 11/15/2002 -0700, you wrote: > For me (Southmost Texas), 1 & 3 rhyme with open "o" (transcribed >dictionary-wise as \aw\ by some listers), while 2 has schwa (I don't do >wedge -- that's a British pronunciation). However, donkey with a schwa is >common in at least parts of Ohio (and used to be in Brooklyn). > > Since honky allegedly came from Bohunk, >Jim Landau's pronunciation of it with a schwa makes good sense. I could >never figure out how one got from Bohunk to honkey, when the latter had >the vowel of "honk". Schwa must have been the original vowel, and the >pronuciation was influenced by false (folk) association with "honk" >(unless the regional pronunciation of Bohunk is with an open "o"). > > Rudy > >(Footnote to another thread: on the campus of the University of Texas >(Austin), there is a statue of Jefferson Davis, President of the >Confederate States of America, standing with a copy of the US constitution >open in one hand. The implications are clear.) From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Nov 17 00:18:30 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:18:30 -0500 Subject: rhyming odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115074704.00ab24c0@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: I think Jim meant that 'monkey' and 'honky' are "politically incorrect." But why would either 'monkey' or 'donkey' be considered un-PC? At 08:02 AM 11/15/2002 -0800, you wrote: >This ("honky") is again different for me. I say and am sure I have always >heard: > >"donkey" /'dawnk ee/ >"monkey" /'muhn kee/ >"honky" /'hawnk ee/ > >and you pronounce "honky" as /'huhn kee'/ which is "hunky" to me. So you >pronounce "honky" and "hunky" the same way? And I also find it *very* >interesting that the politically incorrect words rhyme. I wonder how >widespread the pronunciation is so that this rhyming is the case. You >would think this would have been picked up on for a sociolinguistic study >(oooh, a new research project :) ). > >Patty > >At 10:32 AM 11/15/02 -0500, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 11/15/02 10:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: >> >> > >This is interesting, I have *never* heard donkey rhyme with monkey! >> > >> > Meanwhile, back on the East Coast, I rhyme them with impunity. But >> > "honky" rhymes with neither, so it's a matter of lexical diffusion >> > rather than purely a phonological matter. (The adjective "wonky" >> > rhymes with "honky", but then unlike the others it has an internal >> > morpheme boundary.) >> >>I rhyme "donkey" with "monkey", i.e. /'duhn kee/, but I find /'dawnk ee/ or >>/'dahnk ee/ acceptable. (And yes I do hear the /k/ move across the syllable >>boundary, though I do not have the knowledge of phonetics to say why this >>happens). >> >>However, in my experience "honky" meaning "whte, usually disparaging" also >>rhymes with "monkey". Yes, the two politically incorrect words rhyme. I >>can't recall ever haing heard /'hawnk ee/ or /'hahnk ee/ in this sense. Yes, >> /'hawnk ee 'tawnk/, but here this is probably to make the first and last >>syllables rhyme. >> >>Raised in Louisville KY, college in Michigan, than living in DC and South >>Jersey for 33 years. >> >> - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Nov 17 01:12:01 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:12:01 -0500 Subject: rhyming odds and ends In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021116191516.01931c98@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 7:18 PM -0500 11/16/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >I think Jim meant that 'monkey' and 'honky' are "politically >incorrect." But why would either 'monkey' or 'donkey' be considered un-PC? As discussed recently, Howard Cosell's reference to an African-American football player with the line "Look at that little monkey run" or something of the sort landed him in hot water for what was considered a racist insult. Other black athletes like Patrick Ewing have been more intentionally insulted by signs held up by fans in opposing stadiums or arenas comparing them to gorillas or monkeys. Donkeys I'm not sure enough. For linguists and philosophers, there's the matter of donkey anaphora. Sentences like Every farmer who owns a donkey beats it. If a farmer owns a donkey, he beats it. are of theoretical interest because of the difficulty in accounting for the reference of "it", and this was recognized by scholastic philosophers in the medieval period. Peter Geach used their example in his modern version of medieval logic, and such sentences have come to be known in formal sentences as "donkey sentences". Un-PC they clearly are (though better than discussions of "Do you still beat your father?" or "Do you still beat your wife?" in work on presupposition). But the LSA, in its wisdom (I was a member of the executive committee when this was taken up as part of the language reform initiated by the Committee on the Status of Women), determined that authors in _Language_ would be able to continue to use donkey sentences because of their historical importance, although no new examples involving gratuitous violence to animals (or people) would be countenanced. Still, I'm pretty sure that's not what Jim had in mind. (Maybe it's that donkeys are the Democrats' symbol, and we know how un-PC *they* are after the recent elections. Or that donkeys are jackasses. Naah.) larry From oliversplace at MSN.COM Sun Nov 17 01:25:38 2002 From: oliversplace at MSN.COM (Jeff Oliver) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:25:38 -0600 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Artical: 29,000 hits. At least I'm not alone. Maybe I should write an article about google as a support group. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dodi Schultz Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: artical [sic] Jeff Oliver writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Uh, for starters.... From Friolly at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 01:32:30 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:32:30 EST Subject: odds and ends>Ali Message-ID: Does anyone remember the extremely insulting and racist jabs that Muhamed Ali made at Joe Frazier? I don't remember exactly what Ali said, but I do remember the facial caricatures. Sickening. Fritz > Other black athletes like Patrick > Ewing have been more intentionally insulted by signs held up by fans > in opposing stadiums or arenas comparing them to gorillas or monkeys. From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Nov 17 02:35:25 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:35:25 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: >> Artical: 29,000 hits. At least I'm not alone. Maybe I should write an >> article about google as a support group. ;-) Hey, at least you've got a sense of humor. Sorry I can't answer your question (I'm a journalist, not a language researcher--although I do run a usage site on CompuServe). I make frequent use of Google (doesn't everyone?), but not for that purpose. Perhaps someone else on the list may be able to help. --DS From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Nov 17 02:49:38 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 21:49:38 -0500 Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: Actually, Google does come up from time to time. Why not just search for Google and see the cases where people have cited it on the list? You can search the ADS-L archives at http://www.americandialect.org/adslarchive.html John Baker From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Nov 17 06:57:55 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 00:57:55 -0600 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 2002 to 16 Nov 2002 (#2002-295) In-Reply-To: <20021117050102.8D2B34CFE@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:20:31 -0600 > From: Millie Webb > Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > > I have not been able to follow all of the replies here for the last > week or so, so forgive me if I bring up something someone else already > has.... > > I have worked a fair amount among the Old Order Amish on their use of > both English and "Plain German", and I have heard (and seen, in many > sources) Plan Pennsylvania German, referred to as "Pennsylvania Dutch" > many many times. I assume that (likely because of the German word for > German, which is "Deutsch") a lot of the people claiming they were > raised hearing "Dutch" spoken in New York State and elsewhere on the > East Coast, were actually hearing (at best) dialects that mixed German > and Dutch, and were referred to as "Dutch" because that is how the > speakers labeled their own language I grew up in the Catskills region, in Ulster County, NY, in the 1950's. And I _never_ heard "Dutch" used to mean anything but Netherlandish. The area was Dutch-speaking at one time, became bilingual (English and Dutch), and then primarily English-speaking. (Some of the "Dutch" settlers were francophones from Germany -- religious refugees from Belgium -- and some may have had Frisian as their native language.) To the best of my knowledge, "Dutch" also means Netherlandish rather than German in the New York City metropolitan area. Including the parts of New Jersey which used to be Dutch-speaking. > (most Amish, when they say > ""Deutsch" pronounce it more like "Deitch"). Many Amish, even though > their spoken language is definitely more like German than Dutch, still > call it "Dutch". I cannot understand spoken Dutch, but I can > understand spoken "Plain German". -- Millie ----- Original Message > ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:16 PM > Subject: Re: Dutch language in the Catskills > > > > J. L. Dillard discusses "Jersey Dutch" in one of his books. (I'm at > > home & don't remember which one) _________________________________ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 07:31:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:31:56 EST Subject: Mexican Shower; Geoduck (1909); Telegraph Stew (1870); Fado (1890) Message-ID: MEXICAN SHOWER SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE is really bad. A time-traveling Scott Joplin interviewing women's tennis stars? Was there a point or a joke that I missed? In the show that just ended. "Michael Moore" was interviewed about the liberal loss on election day. Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. I didn't find "Mexican shower" in the RHHDAS or in the CDS. There aren't many web hits. Most of the "Mexican shower" hits are for porn sites--YOU can check them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GEODUCK (continued) GILL'S DICTIONARY OF THE CHINOOK JARGON compiled by John Gill Fifteenth edition Portland, Oregon: J. K. Gill Company 1909 Pg. 14: Clams. Razor clams, O'na. little neck, Luck-ut-chee; quahang or large round clams of Puget Sound is called "Smetock" on the northen coasts, and the largest of all "go-duck." (What date is the first edition, and who has it?...I spent all day looking at Chinook language books, and this was the only one that had "geoduck"--ed.) CHOIR'S PIONEER DIRECTORY OF THE CITY OF SEATTLE AND KING COUNTY: HISTORY, BUSINESS DIRECTORY, AND IMMIGRANT'S GUIDE TO AND THROUGHOUT WASHINGTON TERRITORY AND VICINITY by M. Choir Pottsville: Miners' Journal Book and Job Rooms 1878 Pg. 116 (THE EDITOR'S LECTURE ROOM): Clams are of three kinds, and very plentiful. No starvation possible in Puget Sound, for clam-bed crops never fail, and when the tide is out the table is set, free to all the hungry that wish to eat. Crabs, oysters, and many other varities of fish are to be found here, a full description of which will be given in my next number. (Next number? There's nothing after 1878!--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TELEGRAPH STEW ALASKA AND ITS RESOURCES by William H. Dall Boston: Lee and Shepard 1870 A fine book, but no "hoochino" antedate here. Pg. 29: In the afternoon Ingechuk brought us some white grouse and some fresh reindeer meat. Of the latter a delicious dish was concocted, which I will describe for the benefit of future ecplorers. It was invented by the members of Kennicott's party during the first year's explorations. The frozen reindeer meat was cut into small cubes about half an inche in diameter. An equal amount of backfat was treated the same way. Hardly covered with water, this was simmered in a stewpan for nearly an hour; water, pepper, and salt being added as needed. When nearly done, a little more water was added, and the finely broken biscuit from the bottom of the bread-bag slowly stirred in, until the whole of the gravy was absorbed. This done, we sat down to enjoy a dish which would have awakened enthusiasm at the table of Lucullus. It was known among the initiated as "telegraph stew," and the mere mention of its name would no doubt touch, in the breast of any one of them, a chord of electric sympathy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FADO I went through some Portuguese books, but failed to find the Portuguese donuts popular in Hawaii. I was going to copy the books, but the NYPL was packed this Saturday and I didn't want to spend an hour on line. I made light notes. ROUND THE CALENDAR IN PORTUGAL by Oswald Crawfurd London: Chapman and Hall, Limited 1890 Pg. 54: ...those strange airs into the minor key which the Portuguese call _fados_... (OED has 1902 for "fado"?--ed.) Pg. 245: ...-broa_ or black bread... SPANISH LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY by L. Higgin WITH CHAPTERS ON PORTUGUESE LIFE IN TOWN AND COUNTRY by Eugene E. Street New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons 1906 Pg. 294: ...accompanied by a bit of rye-bread or of _broa_, the bread made from maize. SKETCHES OF PORTUGUESE LIFE, MANNERS, COSTUME AND CHARACTER by A. P. D. G. London: Geo. B. Whittaker 1826 Pg. 142: ...delicious fruit (pinhoes)... Pg. 169: ...vacca com arros, or galinha com arros*... Pg. 304: ...cachaca (a species of rum)... (What does OED have? I found just one stray citation--ed.) Pg. 311: ...queijados...requeijoes... (The former is described as a "white cheese." Longer description this page--ed.) Pg. 320: Bacalhao... Pg. 321: ...cajado... Pg. 344: ...balo padre... (Longer description this page--ed.) Pg. 345: ...atum... (Longer food description this page--ed.) PORTUGAL: ITS LAND AND PEOPLE by W. H. Koebel London: Archibald Constable and Co. Ltd. 1909 Pg. 391: _Canja_, for instance, is a popular dish (Pg. 392--ed.) of chicken broth and rice; _Cosido_ consists of boiled chicken, bacon, and sausage, with an important foundation of rice, and these and many others beyond that are similarly fortified. Pg. 392: _Guizado_ or _Ensopado_, as it is termed in the Alemtejo, a species of Irish stew... From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Nov 17 08:38:25 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:38:25 -0600 Subject: Mexican Shower Message-ID: Sounds a lot like what I used to hear my mother talk about as a "PTA bath." Of course, at the time, I just thought it was just something one did before a Parent Teacher Association meeting. Several Google hits with less delicate descriptions, first one http://www.jmasterton.com/sample1.htm . DaveHause ----- Original Message ----- From: MEXICAN SHOWER From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Nov 17 10:49:25 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 05:49:25 -0500 Subject: FW: Mexican Shower Message-ID: Re Barry P's post cc'd in part below, I have personally heard this (and I still use this myself -- both the term and the shower), but called a "Polish shower". Being half Polish I find it funny. And as for "Mexican shower", I would think that there is another way to interpret, playing off the concept/term "wetback". With apologies to the PC crowd, Frank Abate ************************ In the show that just ended. "Michael Moore" was interviewed about the liberal loss on election day. Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. I didn't find "Mexican shower" in the RHHDAS or in the CDS. There aren't many web hits. Most of the "Mexican shower" hits are for porn sites--YOU can check them. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Nov 17 12:07:34 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:07:34 -0000 Subject: Polish shower Message-ID: http://www.hatsofftolarry.com/day87.htm offers: 'I've noticed that budget travelers love to put on deodorant without taking a shower. This is sometimes referred to as an "English shower" or a "Polish shower." Personally, I do not condone this practice. I would rather smell like the ass of a yak then put deodorant on a greasy, sweaty armpit.' Jonathon Green From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Nov 17 00:37:37 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:37:37 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >>S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >>Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >>out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >>I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >>of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >>A. Murie > >Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking >(but not Spanish-speaking) world. > >larry ~~~~~~~ Um. Not quite a parallel! AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Nov 17 14:54:10 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My favorite is from the Polish-speaking world. Before WWII, "Alfons" was a Frenchified but perfectly reasonable Polish name. After (during?) the war, it took on the meaning "pimp." I met a guy in Krakow once (in his 50's in the 70's) who hemmed and hawwed when I asked him his name. Of course, it was "Alfons." I'm not sure, but I would suspect that the "Randy" handle for "Randolph" died in Britain (when it became a synonym for "horny," as it did not in the US - surely the case since I was once introduced to a "Randy Cox" with nary a giggle). dInIs > >>My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, >>>S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. >>>Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually >>>out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. >>>I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think >>>of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. >>>A. Murie >> >>Well, Jesus is pretty unusual as a given name in the English-speaking >>(but not Spanish-speaking) world. >> >>larry >~~~~~~~ >Um. Not quite a parallel! >AM > > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Nov 17 14:46:20 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:46:20 -0500 Subject: this century Message-ID: I just heard a report from NPR news that stated the coming Leonid meteor shower might prove to be the most spectacular "this century." I presume they mean between now and 2100. But one might suppose that they mean the most spectacular in "a century." I haven't been following this thread in the news and am not an astronomy buff. I was struck by the audacity implied in the reference to "this century" and the future. Regards, David Barnhart From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 17:51:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:51:05 EST Subject: Runza (1950) Message-ID: The new volume of DARE has "runza.: This is the earliest trademark information for the place (not necessarily the food)...."Sashima" is an item I did not expect to be in DARE, but it is. My NEW YORK TIMES antedate must have been too late. "Roux" is an item I _did_ expect to be in DARE, but it's not. John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK explains "Creole roux" and "Cajun roux." I'd put it in my top ten of Louisiana regional foods. Typed DrawingWord Mark RUNZA Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: SANDWICH-LIKE FOOD ITEMS FOR CONSUMPTION ON OR OFF THE PREMISES. FIRST USE: 19500000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19500000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73113590 Filing Date January 25, 1977 Registration Number 1119748 Registration Date June 5, 1979 Owner (REGISTRANT) RUNZA DRIVE-INNS OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION NEBRASKA 1501 N. 56TH ST. LINCOLN NEBRASKA 68504(LAST LISTED OWNER) RUNZA NATIONAL, INC. CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF NEBRASKA 5931 SOUTH 58 ST., SUITE D P.O. BOX 6042 LINCOLN NEBRASKA 68506 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record CARL J SJULIN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19990325 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Nov 17 17:07:16 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:07:16 -0500 Subject: Runza (1950) Message-ID: I'm inclined not to count this an Americanism. It comes from _beurre roux_, meaning "brown butter," according to MW10 The reduced form of the term, i.e. _roux_, may however be an Americanism. Cajun roux and Creole roux are interesting American variants. I imagine there are plenty of food terms which are compounds one formative element of which is either Creole or Cajun. There may even as in this case be both Creole ... and Cajun ... with significant differences. Regards, David Barnhart From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 20:18:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:18:19 -0500 Subject: Scrapple (1848) Message-ID: DARE has "scrapple" from 1855. This is from the online ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES. April 1848, GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK, volume 36, pg. 233: Accessible Archives Search and Information Server Query ?scrapple? Press your "BACK" Button to RETURN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... practice. There were plates of coarse dough-nuts, crullers, and waffles, all children of the same family. Also, hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple; cucumbers pickled yellow, and cabbage pickled purple; a saucer of large black lumps, which were quinces, preserved hard; and another of small black ... From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sun Nov 17 20:41:30 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 12:41:30 -0800 Subject: Mexican Shower; Geoduck (1909); Telegraph Stew (1870); Fado (1890) In-Reply-To: <16a.1733db04.2b089fec@aol.com> Message-ID: The oldest I can find is the 9th ed. (Portland, Ore. : J.K. Gill, 1882) 60 p. (15th ed has 84 p.) New York Public claims to have the ninth ed. in hard copy and the 10th (1884) in hard copy and on microfilm. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > --------------------------------------------- > GEODUCK (continued) > > GILL'S DICTIONARY OF THE CHINOOK JARGON > compiled by John Gill > Fifteenth edition > Portland, Oregon: J. K. Gill Company > 1909 > > Pg. 14: > Clams. Razor clams, O'na. little neck, Luck-ut-chee; quahang or large round > clams of Puget Sound is called "Smetock" on the northen coasts, and the > largest of all "go-duck." > (What date is the first edition, and who has it?...I spent all day looking at > Chinook language books, and this was the only one that had "geoduck"--ed.) > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 20:55:15 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:55:15 -0500 Subject: Pepperpot (1791) Message-ID: See the latest DARE for "pepperpot" (1794). This is from the American Periodical Series online. It is NOT "Philadelphia pepperpot." (I doubt I'll have time for that tomorrow in Temple). The citation is a mess to read, but it's what they have. Notice that "toad in a hole" appears as "toad in hell." In answer to Gerald Cohen, all of the early APS "shysters" are not that at all. What comes up is just early APS garbage. Searching collections: APS Online Article Display Article 25 of 25 Publisher Info. Mark article Article format: Cite/Abstract Full Text Page Image Saves this document as a Durable Link under "Results-Marked List" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Picture of Jamaica The Massachusetts Magazine; or, Monthly Museum. Containing the Literature, History, Politics, Arts, Manners & Amusements of the Age (1790-1796); Boston; Feb 1791; Anonymous; Volume: 3 Issue: 2 Start Page: 79 Full Text: Copyright American Periodical Series I Feb 1791 Theatrical Anecdote-.- O/r Tamales. 79 His fidelity to his friends, Lois tender his , his love for Lois country, his patience,: his courage, hall be the constant theme of our conversations, and tlie object of our . We will never forget his we will ends to , and leave them an precedents to those unto forgive Its. The words of I, moved hearts ofthe Athenians who only replied by acclamations. That volatile people, to Thorn it was only to point out the path of , to engage them to purple it, heaped praises on Pl,, and conducted house with every (tration of jolt. observed his pro-life; he quarried arid blade leer happy; hc no expense on the education of the daughter of ; and when the had: attained leer sixteenth year, he alligned her a portion, and left her at liberty in the choice of ;' Band. CAL WHEN l.ee was manager at Ed. , he was determined to improve upon thunder, and fo having, proctored a parcel of nine pound [hot,: they pelt into a wheel barrow, to Chicle he affixed as octagon wheel. This done, ridges were placed at the back of the Rage, and one of flue C; was ordered to trundle this wheelbarrow, fo filled, backwards and forwards ridges.The play was Lear, and really in the two first efforts the thunder had a good enact. At length, as the kin,, was .r the pelting of the: dorm, foot nipped, and don n he came wheel barrow and all. glue A N E C D O T A,. liege being on a declivity, the balls node their way towards the r a, and meeting with but a feeble re( froth flee Scene, laid it flat 'upon its face. This Form was more for Lear to - the one he had before of. The balls taking every direction, lie was obliged to about to avoid them like man who dances else egg lore tripe. 'the fiddlers, in alarm for their cat gut, hurried oust of talc , arid to crown this Scene of glorious , flee ling tenderer lay prof bate in the Alit of the audience, like another . P I (I T IT R F of A M I C A. [By a Wit, who at Part And l 1 JAMAICA is the dunghill of the J universe; the Vole creation; tile clippings of the ; a pile of , jumbled into an emblem of chaos; neglected by omnipotence `` hen he formed the world in its admirable order; tile nursery of heaven's judgements, where the malignant feeds of (. were first gathered Scattered the regions of the earth, to punitive mankind for their of fences; the place where Pandora filled her box-where Vulcan fired Jove's thunderbolt; and that Phaa?ton, by his ra.th misguidance of the Em, Scorched into a cinder; the receptacle of vagabonds-and the of banI; sickly as an hospital, as dangerous as the plague-as hot as . -as w--as its monarch: . . . S` to tornadoes, hurricanes and earthquakes, as if flee island, like people, were troubled with the dry . The chief of provisions is flea turtle, or toad in a (hell, Heaved , its own gravy: Its lean is as as a green girl; its fat of a dif; colour; and is excellent to } ut a a flux; and rge out part of ill liquors it bly creates. The belly is called , back , and it is Served up to the table In its own , of platter. Alley have Guam nas, , and crabs; the firR be ihD an animal, nipped like a lizard, but lilacs and larger; cond, a land tortoise, Chicle needs no , being as numerous as frogs In otiose parts, and last row in Bill ! ground [ of Jamaica. like rabbits; fo that the whole itl.nd may justly be called a crab warren: They arc fatted near the , where they will make st of a corpse in as little time as a tanner will Hay a Chit; or a hound devour a of mutton after 1. They shave beef without fat, lean mutton without gravy; and fools as tender as the udder at an old and as juicy as a from tile haunches of a cart horle. Milk is fo plenty that you may bury it pence a quart; but cream ho very { that a firkin of bitter, of their own making, should be no coldly a Jewel, that the richell nian in the ifland world be `'nable to purchase it. They valise themselves greatly upon the of their pork, which indeed is luscious, but as flabby as the at one jutI ripen from a diarrhea, and to be forbidden as in all hot countries, and among the Jews, for the prevention of the . There is very little veal, and that lean; for in England you may nurse four children much cheaper, than you can one calf in Jamaica. They have coarse teal, alveoli as big es ducks, and ducks as big as geese: But as for their geese they are all Fijians, for never few one in the inand There are sundry forts of fith, with omit scales, and of a serpentine complexion. eat as dry as [had, and touch ( than pale herrings, or old ring, with oiled glitter to the Sauce as rank as grease, improv. hell with the palatable relish of a stink sing anchovy. They make a rare , they call a pepperpot. It is all excellent breakfast for a salamander, or a good preparative for a agent, ulna, eats fire one that he may "et better vitals :the next. Three ho inflamed my mouth, that? had I devoured a : peek of horde radish, and drank after it a gallon of , and gunpowder, Dives like, I not have been more importunate for of seater to cool my tongue. They ,, in a fright called a Cole, not unlike an apt.1 but longer: It is (oft and very juicy, blat fo great an acid, and of a nature do , that by erotic one, it drew lily like millers , and made my palate din rough): and as {ore, as if I had been gargling nay mouth with ,: Of water alla they have plenty. The former is of as cold a quality as a ; and: wail dissolve in your month like: a. hot frying pal); an(l is as tothe eater, and I believe as ,: as a call of rock water to a man in a hectic fever. The latter are I arge and luscious, but too much watry, to be. good. Cocoa nuts and nuts are hi great anions the The former they reckon meat, drink; and cloth; t the eatable part is fe. chore by fo a magazine, requires a :y well armed with axe and , to lied ape, fuge to the kernel; and when he 1 done it will not r his . latter is as big as a filbert; like a beautiful woman, wel I and infectious; if Yost venture totally it is of ill consequences Their is black and japanned by nature,. needing art; the kernel white -: to the palate, bitt-of 'oh powerful operation, that by take ing two, my bowels were swept as clean as ever man a vault, or any of the black fraternity, a chimney. They leave oranges, lemons, limes, and federal oilier fruits, as [ end crabbed as themselves, not given Hem at a blotting, but a i for eating fo many four things, generates a corroding Lime in the bowels; and is one great ;On of that fatal erable distemper, dry ,; which in a fort piglet, or three weeks, takes assay life of fo that these are forced to be led about by Negroes. A man , nder theist may be Mid to be the Escutcheon of Else , complexion of the patient being the field, bearing, or, with the emblems of , pros per : by two , fables; and the . Man! other fruits here are, Chicle are worth eating, naming, nor :de. Scribing; ),ich are never tared but in , and Pliers in a A DISSERTATION From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 21:42:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:42:45 -0500 Subject: Pope's Nose (1855); Scripture Cake (1896) Message-ID: DARE has "pope's nose" (1866) and "scripture cake" (1906). I do not imply that these items are related. Caution should be used in serving them together. Both of these citations are from the American Periodical Series online. 1 December 1855, GRAHAM'S AMERICAN MONTHLY MAGAZINE OF LITERATURE, ART, AND FASHION, pg. 527: She sees them (Chickens--ed.) dressed (undressed I would call it, for there is not a feather on them) and lying fat and quiet on their backs, with wings folded and legs crossed; their heads are gone, but it matters not, for there is small expression in the head of a hen, 'tis in the side bone, as I think, one looks for that, and in the pope's nose. September 1896, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, pg. 27: MRS. M--At the cake table at the bazaar sell what is known as a "Scripture Cake." With each cake should go a typewritten copy of the receipt included in a sealed envelope: Four and a half cups of 1 Kings 4:22; One and a half cups of Judges 5:25 (last clause); Two cups of Jeremiah 6:20 (sugar); Two cups of 1 Samuel 30:12 (raisins); Two cups of Nahum 3:12; One cups of Numbers 17:8; Two tablespoonfuls of 1 Samuel 14:25; Season to taste of II Chronicles 9:9; Six of Jeremiah 17:11; Half cup of Judges 4:19 (last clause); Two teaspoonfuls of Amos 4:5 (baking powder). Follow Solomon's prescription for making a good boy, Proverbs 23:14, and you will have a good cake. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 22:15:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:15:20 -0500 Subject: Mayonnaise, or Hellmann's (1926) vs. Schlorer (1911) Message-ID: I was asked to check out Schlorer's mayonnaise (the first commercial mayo?) while in Philadelphia. Here are trademark records: Word Mark HELLMANN'S Goods and Services IC 029 030. US 046. G & S: MAYONNAISE, SALAD DRESSINGS, SANDWICH SPREAD, AND TARTAR SAUCE. FIRST USE: 19260801. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19260801 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71567382 Filing Date October 21, 1948 Registration Number 0514280 Registration Date August 23, 1949 Owner (REGISTRANT) BEST FOODS, INC., THE CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 1 EAST 43RD STREET NEW YORK NEW YORK (LAST LISTED OWNER) CPC INTERNATIONAL INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME FROM DELAWARE INTERNATIONAL PLAZA ENGLEWOOD CLIFFS NEW JERSEY 07632 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record STEVEN L. CATALANO Prior Registrations 0252155 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19890823 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark MRS. SCHLORER'S Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Mayonnaise. FIRST USE: 19110600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19110600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75495644 Filing Date June 3, 1998 Published for Opposition March 21, 2000 Registration Number 2356614 Registration Date June 13, 2000 Owner (REGISTRANT) VENICE MAID FOODS, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 270 North Mill Road P.O. Box 1505 Vineland NEW JERSEY 083601505 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record JORDAN S WEINSTEIN Prior Registrations 1201339 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Other Data The name "MRS. SCHLORER" does not identify a living individual. Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark MRS. SCHLORER'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029 030 032. US 046. G & S: MAYONNAISE [ , SALAD DRESSING, FRENCH DRESSING, FRUIT NECTARS, FRUIT JUICES, TABLE SYRUPS, FRUIT FLAVORED SYRUPS FOR FOOD PURPOSES, HONEY, PICKLES AND PICKLE RELISHES ]. FIRST USE: 19110600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19110600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 71693937 Filing Date August 30, 1955 Registration Number 0634157 Registration Date September 4, 1956 Owner (REGISTRANT) MRS. SCHLORER'S, INCORPORATED CORPORATION PENNSYLVANIA SCOTTS LANE PHILADELPHIA PENNSYLVANIA (LAST LISTED OWNER) VENICE MAID COMPANY, INC. CORPORATION BY MERGER WITH NEW JERSEY P.O. BOX 1505 VINELAND NEW JERSEY 083601505 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record GARY M. NATH Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19961210 Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date May 30, 2000 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 22:58:12 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:58:12 EST Subject: Scrapple (1848) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/17/2002 3:19:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > There were plates of coarse dough-nuts, crullers, and waffles, all children > of the same family. Also, hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple; > cucumbers pickled yellow, and cabbage pickled purple; a saucer of large black > lumps, which were quinces, preserved hard; and another of small black ... Apparently the writer you quote used semicolons to segregate classes of foods, e.g. pickled cucumbers and pickled cabbage are lumped together. Therefore the writer appears to list "hogs-head cheese, smeer-case and scrapple" as similar foods. "Smeer-case" is a slight mangling of the German for cottage cheese. I cannot identify "hogs-head cheese"---conceivably it is "head cheese" which is a jellied loaf made from various leftover parts of pork including the snout, but I suspect it is some local term for something ordinary like Cheddar. Hence the writer appears to consider hogs-head cheese, cottage cheese, and something called "scrapple" to constitute a category of food and to be as closely related at two kinds of pickled vegetables. This leads to the question: is it safe to assume that this writer used "scrapple" in the modern sense of a loaf made from corn meal and ground meat, or does he use "scrapple" to mean some unidentified dairy product? - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:08:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:08:27 -0500 Subject: Refried Beans (1954) and Pinto Beans (1916) Message-ID: REFRIED BEANS--DARE has 1957. This will be utterly destroyed by the online LOS ANGELES TIMES, but from the NEW YORK TIMES, 30 January 1954, pg. 14: Another version--and the one we preferred--is the old-fashioned bean taco. This is made with frijoles refritos or Mexican refried beans, and a little grated cheese. PINTO BEANS--Probably the online LOS ANGELES TIMES will have a New Mexico article to beat this as well. In the meantime, DARE has 1916. I'm going to a fancy dinner at Koronet Pizza right now, but gimme a few hours. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:09:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:09:44 EST Subject: artical [sic] Message-ID: In a message dated 11/16/2002 8:25:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, oliversplace at MSN.COM writes: >> I'm Jeff Oliver, a graduate student at Missouri Columbia School of >> Journalism. I'm writing an artical... Don't feel bad. AOL News is currently reporting that "In Cypress to assemble a team of weapons inspectors, the mission's leader, Hans Blix, said.." Critics of Mr. Blix can now say he is lost in the woods, etc. and his supporters can say that he is standing as firm as a Cypress tree. This reminds me of an old paleolinguist chicken-and-egg question, which as far as I know is unsolved: was the element "copper" named after the island of Cyprus, where it has been mined since ancient times, or was the island named after the metal? - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 17 23:16:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:16:21 -0500 Subject: Scrapple (1852) Message-ID: For those of you who don't like the 1848 "scrapple," here's an 1852 "scrapple" from the North American Women's Letters and Diaries database. DARE has 1855. 1. Holley, Sallie. "Letter from Sallie Holley to Caroline F. Putnam, 1852" [Page 99 | Paragraph | Section | Document] the air two or three times; introduced to a tall, unshaven, uncombed unwashed man with terribly dirty clothes and boots thick with mud and manure; your things taken off, you are presently invited out into a dirty, dingy kitchen to sit down to highly-spiced sausages, or a dish here denominated `scrapple,' and hot, thick, heavy pancakes, picking out two or three flies from your drink whatever it may be. "And though you have been lecturing an hour and a half that day, besides riding through rain and mud several miles, you are expected to entertain the friends with how delighted you are Results Bibliography Holley, Sallie, 1818-1893, Letter from Sallie Holley to Caroline F. Putnam, 1852, in A Life for Liberty: Anti-Slavery and Other Letters of Sallie Holley. Chadwick, John White, ed.. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1899, pp. 292. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [1852] S215-D019 Holley:L215-19 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 03:40:12 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:40:12 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: <19f.bcd4de5.2b075e37@aol.com> Message-ID: The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 04:14:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:14:43 -0500 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky In-Reply-To: <3DD66A5F.6010701@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Marc Sacks wrote: #My wife is the only person I ever knew who pronounces donkey to rhyme #with monkey. She's from the Bronx, so maybe it's a New York City #phenomenon. However, I've known lots of New Yorkers but never heard that #pronunciation from any of them. Then again, the word donkey doesn't come #up in conversation all that often. I grew up NYC & environs, 1950s-60s, and I pronounce both words with [^]. -- Mark A. Mandel From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Nov 18 05:12:34 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:12:34 -0800 Subject: donkey, monkey, honky Message-ID: i'm with various other east coasters (larry horn, mark mandel, etc.) as a donkey-monkey speaker. once i left the nyc-philadelphia axis, i met endless numbers of people who found my donkey pronunciation risible - people from new england, the south, south midlands, and more. i've shifted to an [a] donkey, when i'm attending to what i say, to try to avoid sounding ridiculous, but i'm not particularly consistent, and the donkey-monkey version still sounds *right* to me. arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 05:30:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:30:00 -0500 Subject: Shalom Aleichem & Pilawe,Yugurt,Churbah (1636) Message-ID: A VOYAGE INTO THE LEVANT by Henry Blount London: Printed by John Legal for Andrew Crooke 1636 (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE) Pg. 14: ...sherbet... Pg. 101: Their _Diet_ is very full, and grosse; they will refuse all dainties for a peece of fat _mutton_; that they seeth with _Rice_, which is the most generall food they use; they call that mixture _Pilawe_, over it they put _milke_ made thicke, and sower called _Yugurt_, with _Pease_, _Rice_, and _Mutton_ they make their _Porrage Churbah_: these are the three ordinary dishes of _Turky_... (OED has 1612 for "pilau." OED has 1625 for "yogurt," and this would be second. Churbah?--ed.) Pg. 107: ...bids _Salaum Aleck_... (OED has a ridiculous 1881 for "Shalom Aleichem"--ed.) Pg. 123: Now there remaines a word, or two of the _Zinganaes_; they are right such as our _Gypsies_... (OED has 1581 for "Zingana"--ed.) (O.T.: I checked APS online for "scientist." Every one of about twelve early hits wasn't a hit at all. What a waste of time...I'll beat DARE on "pinto bean" when I'm back at the NYPL. The books will probably be offsite, so give me another year--ed.) From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 09:57:00 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:57:00 -0000 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest > Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: > > 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his > quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, Anchuria". As it also appears in "Tom Swift And His Big Tunnel" by Victor Appleton (1916), Chapter III: "Is there anything wrong with South America--Peru? I know they have lots of revolutions in those countries, but I don't believe Peru is what they call a 'banana republic'; is it?", it looks to have been relatively well known even at this time. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Nov 18 09:36:07 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 04:36:07 -0500 Subject: Pepperpot (1791) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes: > See the latest DARE for "pepperpot" (1794). This is from the >American Periodical Series online. It is NOT "Philadelphia pepperpot." >(I doubt I'll have time for that tomorrow in Temple). The citation is >a mess to read, but it's what they have. Notice that "toad in a hole" >appears as "toad in hell." I was looking for examples of this and found DA has pepperpot from 1790 (DA) and 1698 (OED), for _Jamaica pepperpot_. I don't have the newest DARE yet. Are these different? Philadelphia pepperpot usually has tripe in it, I think. Regards, David Barnhart From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Nov 18 11:23:28 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 06:23:28 -0500 Subject: FW: Antedating of "Banana Republic" -- EOTY Message-ID: What follows, courtesy of Michael Q and Fred S, is truly amazing, in terms of the ability to find such info so quickly, and to disseminate it to the world. Hats off to both MQ and FS! I hereby cast my vote for this exchange as the Etymology of the Year. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Quinion Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Banana Republic" > The OED's first use of "banana republic" is dated 1935. ProQuest > Historical Newspapers has this surprisingly early: > > 1912 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 7 Jan. 3 [O. Henry] had studied with his > quick, searching eye the rise and fall of certain banana republics. I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, Anchuria". As it also appears in "Tom Swift And His Big Tunnel" by Victor Appleton (1916), Chapter III: "Is there anything wrong with South America--Peru? I know they have lots of revolutions in those countries, but I don't believe Peru is what they call a 'banana republic'; is it?", it looks to have been relatively well known even at this time. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 11:50:30 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A subscriber has asked me about this rather dated interjection. The assumption I've seen made is that it refers to Sir Walter Scott, or to some archetypal Scotsman. The OED has 1885. I can antedate this using MoA, but the real interest for me is in the associations: "Great-Scott!" he gasped in his stupefaction, using the name of the then commander-in-chief for an oath, as officers sometimes did in those days. [The Galaxy; Volume 12, Issue 1; July 1871; p53] "Scott, Great!" a curious euphemistic oath, in which the name of a well-known general is substituted for the original word, probably merely because of its monosyllabic form. ("Great Scott! I'd rather give my name to a horticultural triumph like that there, than be Senator." Lippincott's Magazine, March 1871, p1. 289.) [Americanisms; the English of the New world; Maximilian Schele De Vere; 1872; p630.] So it might seem to be originally an American expression. Questions: Which well-known general could this be? And does this seem reasonable as the origin? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 11:50:30 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:50:30 -0000 Subject: FW: Antedating of "Banana Republic" -- EOTY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What follows, courtesy of Michael Q and Fred S, is truly amazing, > in terms of the ability to find such info so quickly, and to > disseminate it to the world. > > Hats off to both MQ and FS! > > I hereby cast my vote for this exchange as the Etymology of the Year. You're very kind. It looks easy, as so often, because it rests on large amounts of work by other people. The real credit should, at least in my case, go to the Project Gutenberg team, who have digitised so many texts, and also to dtSearch, which produced the excellent program I use to index and search this and a lot of other etexts. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 18 13:14:54 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:14:54 -0500 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: <3DD8D406.3361.ADB657@localhost> Message-ID: >Questions: Which well-known general could this be? Gen. Winfield Scott. >And does this seem reasonable as the origin? Reasonable, but I wouldn't believe it without better evidence. There are other people named "Scott". I would also consider possible an origin from German, e.g., from the conventional southern German greeting "Gruess Gott". In any case, I believe the "Scott" is functionally a euphemism for "God". I presume that the Great Scot variety of potato is more recent? -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 13:55:49 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:55:49 EST Subject: Great Scott! Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/02 6:51:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > "Great-Scott!" he gasped in his stupefaction, using the name of the > then commander-in-chief for an oath, as officers sometimes did in > those days. [The Galaxy; Volume 12, Issue 1; July 1871; p53] > > "Scott, Great!" a curious euphemistic oath, in which the name of a > well-known general is substituted for the original word, probably > merely because of its monosyllabic form. ("Great Scott! I'd rather > give my name to a horticultural triumph like that there, than be > Senator." Lippincott's Magazine, March 1871, p1. 289.) > [Americanisms; the English of the New world; Maximilian Schele De > Vere; 1872; p630.] > > So it might seem to be originally an American expression. Questions: > Which well-known general could this be? And does this seem reasonable > as the origin? Winfield Scott (1786-1866), who I believe had the title of "commander-in-chief" of the US Army at the beginning of the Civil War and for some years prior to that. While his fame was eclipsed by that of many Civil War generals, he was very famous during the middle of the 19th Century as one of the two generals who won the Mexican War (the other was Zachary Taylor, who used his fame to become President in 1849). Taylor was "Old Rough and Ready". Scott had the less enviable nickname of "Old Fuss and Feathers". Your first quote refers to the "then commander-in-chief." Is it possible to figure out the date in which the "officer" was swearing? If so, then would it match the dates in which Scott was Commander-in-Chief? - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Nov 18 14:48:58 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:48:58 -0500 Subject: kajigaedu-oh-itda / kajigaedutta Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/11/18/nkorea.nukes/index.html Though the ethnically homogeneous South and North Koreans share the same language, there are various differences in pronunciation across the Korean peninsula. The phrase used in the announcement is unclear. "Kajigaedu-oh-itda", which means 'entitled to have' sounds very similar to "kajigaedutta", which means to 'already possess.' Officials say they are also wary because it is not the way North Korea usually makes such important statements. /snip -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Clear writers assume, with a pessimism born of experience, that whatever isn't plainly stated the reader will invariably misconstrue. -- John R. Trimble From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Nov 18 15:46:22 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:46:22 -0800 Subject: Shalom Aleichem & Pilawe,Yugurt,Churbah (1636) In-Reply-To: <4732E06A.41C8330C.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A VOYAGE INTO THE LEVANT > by Henry Blount > London: Printed by John Legal for Andrew Crooke > 1636 > (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE) > > Pg. 107: ...bids _Salaum Aleck_... > (OED has a ridiculous 1881 for "Shalom Aleichem"--ed.) > Wouldn't this be evidence for the Arabic "salaam alaykum" rather than the Hebrew "shalom aleichem"? I don't know the context of the Blount quotation above but given the Levant in 1636, my guess would be that he is talking about Arabs, and probably Arabs speaking in the local dialect. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 15:59:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) Message-ID: Greeting from Temple University in Philadelphia. Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? Urban Archives has some pretty boring stuff about food (tons of useless pretzel articles, for example), but there are about 20 little envelopes for slang. Here's one article: NEW YORK HERALD-TRIBUNE 16 December 1951 _New Lexicon for War_ _Korea Adds Colorful Words_ _To Fighting Man's Vocabulary_ By Mac R. Johnson (...) No sweat: Retreaded version of "it's a cinch," or "it's a pipe," meaning not difficult; it can be done easily. Ichi-ban (japanese): Means No. 1, the best, superior. Idawa (Korean): Come here. Chop chop: food or any allusion to food or eating. Chogi (Korean): Human supply trains, native Koreans lugging food, amunition and other supplies on their backs up the hills to the front-line U. N. troops. Chigi (Korean): Singular, one native Korean hill porter. Tilt (American pinball word): SOmething went wrong. Swanning (British): Patrol in no-man's land; also can mean leaving position without authority to do something trivial such as taking a jeep ride instead of tending to business. Takusan (Japanese): Many; a lot. Sukoshi (Japanese): Few; little. Flame-out (jet-age word): Jet engine fails due to fuel starvation. Yoyo (from the jetmen): MiG fighters making repeated diving passes at a U. N. jet plane, up and down, up and down. Chopper: Helicopter. Hava no: Don't have any, such as "Hava no eggs for breakfast," or "Hava no soap." From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 16:30:41 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:30:41 -0000 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) In-Reply-To: <171E53F3.1297ED98.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? You find so many things, remembering them is a problem! The ADS-L archives don't seem to contain anything from the Civil War, though they do cite unsupported comments that the expression may be linked to General Wingfield Scott. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 16:42:01 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:42:01 -0500 Subject: "RSV" Message-ID: >From a meeting announcement at U of Penn: > Afterwards we will be taking him for dinner at [name of restaurant]. > Please RSV if at all possible, but in any event feel welcome to join > us. Apparently the writer of this announcement (not a native speaker of English, by the way, or French for that matter) interpreted "RSVP" as "Respond x x Possible", with "x x" ~= 'if'. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 18 17:01:10 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:01:10 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the conventions of the context. Whaddya think, guys? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 18 17:11:36 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:11:36 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Such collocations as "bad guys" and "a guy thing" would seem to contradict this reasoning, while such horrors as "The Man Show" ("The Guy Show"?) seem to support it. dInIs (who now lives in the gender-free guy area of MI, although only for direct (plural) address: Hey you guys! (mixed group, men only, women only) I saw two guys (this guy) down by the pond (men only) Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the conventions of the context. Whaddya think, guys? -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 18 17:47:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:47:08 -0500 Subject: What's Cooking (1934?) Message-ID: I've got about 15 more slang folders to copy, then I have to go upstairs to Temple University archives to find a "hoagie." WHAT'S COOKING?--I've got to do this for that little Oxford book. From a clipping, 12 July 1942, NEW YORK TIMES: As for the use of the phrase, "What's cooking?"--Mr. (Gene--ed.) Krupa traced it back to 1934 and 1935, when the "first swing bands were touring the country on one-nighters and ballroom engagements." SHALOM ALEICHEM--Yes, the citation I found was the Arabic form of "Peace Be With You!" OED can look up EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE, analyze the context, but it in brackets, put it in the etymology, put it in a separate entry, or ignore it entirely. I don't get paid either way. GREAT SCOTT--A Civil War diary was recently issued, and it had it. Check the ADS-L archives for "deadline" or "dead line," which should be in the same post. O.T. HEY, YOU! GET OFF THAT COPIER!! From stevekl at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 18 18:06:29 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:06:29 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense In-Reply-To: <46.31050822.2b066f6f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new > sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else noticed this? I have not run across anything like this. -- Steve From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 18:43:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:43:17 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: <3DD8B96C.6792.45CA0D@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > I think I can beat that. From "Cabbages and Kings" by O Henry (1904), > Chapter VIII: "In the consultation of this small, maritime banana > republic was a forgotten section that provided for the maintenance of > a navy"; and from Chapter XVII: "At that time we had a treaty with > about every foreign country except Belgium and that banana republic, > Anchuria". Good show, Michael! I wonder now whether O. Henry may have actually coined the term. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Nov 18 18:35:29 2002 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:35:29 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: From: sagehen Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > My father was born & christened Sherlock (after his grandfather, > S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan Doyle created his character. > Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since rendered "Sherlock" virtually > out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never encountered another Sherlock. > I suppose there are other examples of this sort of thing, but I can't think > of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. Lolita may provide a similar example. I think someone (perhaps Nabokov himself) wrote that the novel ruined the name among English speakers--or something to that effect. It's curious that there's such a difference between the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Lolita Haze. d. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Nov 18 18:58:09 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:58:09 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <00db01c28f32$548a9420$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: According to a name book I had, Ebeneezer was quite popular until A Christmas Carol. Ed --- davemarc wrote: > From: sagehen > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 2:04 PM > Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > > > > My father was born & christened Sherlock (after > his grandfather, > > S.A.Bronson) in 1878, some years before Conan > Doyle created his character. > > Sherlock Holmes's iconic stature has since > rendered "Sherlock" virtually > > out-of-bounds as a given name. I've never > encountered another Sherlock. > > I suppose there are other examples of this sort of > thing, but I can't > think > > of any, offhand, in the English-speaking world. > > Lolita may provide a similar example. I think > someone (perhaps Nabokov > himself) wrote that the novel ruined the name among > English speakers--or > something to that effect. It's curious that there's > such a difference > between the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Lolita > Haze. > > d. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Nov 18 19:07:26 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:07:26 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by too-close association with a single figure. The associational problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. Historically, the tendency has gone the other way, with parents or godparents seeking to evoke famous figures. Many common names can be traced back to some famous progenitor (or, in the case of John, progenitors). John Baker From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:29:59 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:29:59 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since I grew up in the era of Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (among others), I most certainly recall that the adults around me said "Adolf" much more frequently than "Joseph." For some reason, the latter was always "Joe." (Of course, last name only mentions were by far the most frequent.) dInIs > "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by >too-close association with a single figure. The associational >problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated >with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the >association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have >to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one >Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still >freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. > > Historically, the tendency has gone the other way, with >parents or godparents seeking to evoke famous figures. Many common >names can be traced back to some famous progenitor (or, in the case >of John, progenitors). > >John Baker -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:34:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:34:48 -0500 Subject: "format" (verb) possible new sense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> Apparently the verb "to format" has acquired, among computer users, a new >> sense of "to have something disastrous happen". Has anyone else >>noticed this? > >I have not run across anything like this. > I recall earlier versions of diskettes (back when I used diskettes) having the option of "Format Disk", when that entailed erasing everything currently on it. (I remember the first time being taken aback by this usage.). So if you say you want the disk (re)formatted and discover too late that you've wiped out everything there, that could certainly be disastrous. L From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Nov 18 19:36:48 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:36:48 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <00db01c28f32$548a9420$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Nov 18 20:09:04 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:09:04 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Since I grew up in the era of Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (among > others), I most certainly recall that the adults around me said > "Adolf" much more frequently than "Joseph." For some reason, the > latter was always "Joe." (Of course, last name only mentions were by > far the most frequent.) > > dInIs > > > "Adolf" forms a real-life example of a name tarred by > >too-close association with a single figure. The associational > >problem seems to arise whenever a name has become closely associated > >with an actual or imaginary figure and parents consider that the > >association would be embarrassing for their child. It doesn't have > >to be a negative association; it's been said that there is only one > >Aretha. Note that the name must be distinctive; "Joseph" is still > >freely used, in spite of Joseph Stalin. The relative frequency of the name's appearance before the famous association certainly has something to do with it. Adolf, Aretha, Lolita, and Sherlock were all relatively rare (for Adolf this is true in the English-speaking world). Hence the negative (or positive in Aretha's case) association swamps the ordinary usage. In the case of Joseph, the name is so ubiquitous, that even someone as evil as Uncle Joe wouldn't ruin the name. According to the 1990 census, 0.006% of women in the US were named Aretha. It is 1260th in popularity, out of 4,275, right after Una and right before Pearline. Lolita ranks at #969, with 0.009%. The top ten female names account for 10.703% of the population. For males, Adolf and Sherlock don't make the list. (Adolfo is 567th out of 1219; the list only goes to the 90th percentile, so 10% of the population have names that are not listed.) Joseph is #9 with 1.404% of US males having that name. Joe is #51 at 0.321%. (The ranking is based on data as reported on the census forms; many of these "Joes" would have "Joseph" on their birth certificates.) The top ten male names account for 23.185% of the population. >From http://www.census.gov/genealogy/names/ which gives the frequency of the appearance of names in the US (1990 Census). From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Nov 18 21:03:08 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:03:08 -0000 Subject: Antedating of "Banana Republic" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fred Shapiro wrote: > Good show, Michael! I wonder now whether O. Henry may have > actually coined the term. Taken together with the example you found from the NYT that mentions O Henry specifically, it seems likely, doesn't it? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Nov 19 02:54:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:54:34 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Here in Athens [female] lifeguards at the cuty pool refer to each other as "guys" so it's gender-neutral here (since 1970 at least). _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 04:09:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:09:50 EST Subject: "Talk Trash" & "What's Shakin'" (1951) Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower had asked me to talk trash. From the PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 11 November 1951: _In Our Town_ By Earl Selby (...) _INSULTS:_ "Today's kids can really make a crack to smack a jack. Listen: "You don't tell somebody to drop dead twice anymore--you kill 'em with 'Take a train'. When the chit-chat's a bit on the dry wry tell them to 'jug it'--or leave holding your ears & muttering 'my nerves.' "The sarcastic kind you label a 'deep freeze': if he knows it all he's 'toastees in the ice cubes' (huh?_; tp shut up the pop-off cut him down by saying he's a 'jack=wise,' or maybe an 'odd job.' "'Didn't your mother have any children that lived?' is one squelch; another is remarking 'She (he) is a real doll, d-u-l-l. a crocodile.' For a really obnoxious pair you say 'they deserve each other'; the gal without sex appeal (nobody's ever come up with a substitute for that expression) is condescended to as 'a nice kid--but who wants to take out children?'" _THE TIDINGS OF THE DAY:_ "Remember way back then you used to say 'whatcha know, Joe?' 'Tain't like that no more, kid. Now you say 'Let's talk trash' or else ask 'What's shakin'?' The answer is: 'Nothin' but the bacon.' (...) _THE BIG DATE:_ "We used to ask what's cooking--today's slanger tells mama: 'Get off the stove, mother; I'm riding the range tonight' to show a big date's on." (..) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 04:30:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:30:38 EST Subject: Philly food file Message-ID: Clippings from the Temple University files. HOAGIE 23 September 1953, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _More about the hoagie._--(A.H.) Another legend of its origin is offered by reader Fred P. who writes: "About 1926 my mother had a grocery store in South Philly near a railroad and hoboes used to buy these large Italian sandwiches. Since all hoboes were known to be 'on the hoke' it decame known as a hoke sandwich; later as a hokie, and the name was finally changed to hoagie." This might be pure "hokum," or possibly appropriate. The slang "hoke" for a gentleman of the road comes down to us from hocus-pocus, via hokey-pokey, a term for a juggler--possibly from Ochus Bochus, an early magician. OIL DRILLERS' LINGO 16 May 1960, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Oil Drillers' Lingo_ New York, May 16--(UPI)--Judging by his lingo, the oild field driller has a big appetite. His semantic smorgasbord includes: appetizers (TNT); beans (valves); cabbage (bearings); biscuits (rocks); apple butter (engine belt dressing); donuts (round tubing); macaroni (big pipe); spaghetti (little pipe); and catsup (red acid). LET'S DO LUNCH 11 October 1955, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: The latest bop talk requires you to say, of you like a musician, "Man's he's real bad." Or, "he blows bad." This critical pronouncement is delivered in a monotone, with the "b-a-a-a-d" dragged out for emphasis. Means the exact opposite of what it says. Means he's the greatest. The musician calls his instrument an "ax." "They left their axes on the stand." Music hipsters don't like: "Boom-chuck." -------------------- IN THE white-collar canyons of Manhattan, the smart-talk boys are almost constantly "doing" some kind of "bit." If they want to propose going to lunch, they day: ":et's do the lunch bit." If they see a motion picture, they "do the movie bit." These people also are habitually "getting a fix" on things, phrase presumably borrowed from navigation. If one of these boys is in a muddle as to how he and the girl friend are going to spend the evening, he says: "Let's get a fix on this evening." The newest word for food is "scoff." Dark eyeglasses are "shadows." The word for taking a break from the job, or whatever, is "split." "Let's split for some scoff." A bed is now a "pad." "I was in the pad when the phone rang." From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 19 04:54:12 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:54:12 -0800 Subject: Philly food file In-Reply-To: <172.11d4f2d6.2b0b186e@aol.com> Message-ID: > Clippings from the Temple University files. > > HOAGIE > 23 September 1953, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: > _More about the hoagie._--(A.H.) Another legend of its > origin is offered > by reader Fred P. who writes: "About 1926 my mother had a > grocery store in > South Philly near a railroad and hoboes used to buy these > large Italian > sandwiches. Since all hoboes were known to be 'on the hoke' > it decame known > as a hoke sandwich; later as a hokie, and the name was > finally changed to > hoagie." This might be pure "hokum," or possibly > appropriate. The slang > "hoke" for a gentleman of the road comes down to us from > hocus-pocus, via > hokey-pokey, a term for a juggler--possibly from Ochus > Bochus, an early > magician. This article is cited in _American Speech_, "The Submarine Sandwich: Lexical Variations in a Cultural Context," Eames & Robboy, 1968. I've yet to find another reference to the term "on the hoke." I think the explanation is bogus. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 07:40:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 02:40:32 EST Subject: Bronx Cheer & Brooklyn Razzoo Message-ID: We'll know more about the "Brooklyn Razzoo" (and possibly the "Bronx Cheer") when the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE goes online soon. In the meantime, here are some clippings I found. (In a few hours, I'll go to the Bronx to find people guilty of parking tickets. They don't call it the Bronx Zoo for nothing.) 12 October 1938, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _BRONX DISOWNS CHEER_ _Borough President Says "We Don't Use It Up Here"_ New York, Oct. 12--(AP)--Take it from James J. Lyons, the Bronx lays no claim to that discordant noise popularly known as the Bronx cheer. Lyons, Bronx borough president, told the Chamber of Commerce "The Bronx cheer was brought here from outside somewhere and for some inexplicable reason was named for our borough." And Lyons' payoff: "But we don't use it up here." 12 July 1942, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Bronx Cheer_ _A Misnomer?_ NEW YORK, July 11 (A. P.).--That loud, American noise of disapproval is misnamed, in the opinion of Bronx Borough President James J. Lyons. "There is no such thing as a Bronx cheer," he said today. "The so-called Bronx cheer is a noise brought to the Bronx, especially to the Yankee Stadium, by vulgar people from outside the Bronx." 15 July 1940, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: "BRONX CHEER" is one of several names given to discordant noises made by sports fans or occupants of theater galleries. In baseball slang, its technique is similar to the "Brooklyn razzoo," requiring considerable facial distortion. Bronx borough officials disown the "Bronx cheer" saying it "was brought here from outside somewhere and for some inexplicable reason was named for our borough." Sports writers point out the Yankees baseball team plays in the Bronx and fans' noise of disapproval so named. Same applies to the "Brooklyn razzoo," they say, Brooklyn baseball fans being the most ardent in the country. Another name for such labioglossal sounds is "The Bird," inherited from 19th century theater. The gallery made a hissing sound in giving an actor "the bird," so-named from hissing sound of a goose; hence also, "the big bird." More familiar, perhaps, are "razz" and "razzberry," variants of word raspberry. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 08:21:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 03:21:11 EST Subject: New York words, speech (1929, 1938 articles) Message-ID: Two New York clippings. "Black Hand" should be easy to check in the NEW YORK HERALD INDEX and NEW YORK TIMES PERSONAL NAME INDEX. Any date for me to beat? 18 December 1929, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE: _New York Has Given_ _Many New Words to_ _American Language_ -------------------------------- _"Tuxedo," "Tombs," "Black-_ _hand," "Tabloid," "Shim-_ _my," "Jazz" Among Them_ (...) Once in a while some native New Yorker employes the expression "as crooked as Pearl Street." It is a colloguialism now almost defunct. Pearl Street, windingest in town, beings on Broadway, wanders toward the East River and comes back to terminate at Broadway. (...) The porterhouse steak... "Joy-ride"... It was in London that men who sold securities short were first called bears, but in Wall Street that the corresponding term of bulls was invented for speculators on the long side. (Not true--ed.) Black Friday... "Jazz" was originally the name of a dance, devised in New York about 1913 and the word soon came to characterize the sort of music theretofore called rag-time. (Not true--ed.) (...) Strangest of all New York's coined words and idioms, perhaps, is "black hand." James P. McCarthy, a reporter on the old "New York Herald," made it up and applied it to a Mafia ring which had committed a murder in Brooklyn. (Possibly true. Perhaps the HERALD TRIBUNE would know about the HERALD. Hey, the article has to get one right--ed.) 19 January 1938, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: _Wannamayksumpnuvvit_ _--A Fighting Word_ WHEN a New Yorker wants another drink, he tells the bartender, "Filladuppigen." If he thinks the man's pupils look too dilated, he replies, "Yoovadanuffbud." The patron had better not argue, or the bartender might ask, "Wannamayksumpnuvvit?" That formidable-looking word is defined in the WPA's "1938 Almanac for New Yorkers" as "an invitation to a brawl." Other definitions of New Yorkese, upheld by the almanac editors as being "at least as fruity and full-flavored as ever proper English could be," are: Braykidup: Policeman's suggestion to any group of loiterers. Wazzitoyuh?: Delicate rebuff to an excessively curious questioner. Takadiway: "Please remove it from sight immediately." Dombeeztoopid: Expressing specific disagreement, with undertones of disparagement. Ladderide: Warning not to pursue the subject further. Whyntchalookeryagoyn?: Rhetorical expression of relief used (by motorists especially) after a near-collision. Sowaddyasaybabe, or Hozzabotutbabe: Prelude to romance. (Isn't this list missing something? Did they "forget about it"?--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 13:18:13 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:18:13 EST Subject: Mexican Shower Message-ID: In a message dated 11/17/02 2:32:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Moore was asked if he bathes. Moore said that > he takes a "Mexican shower"--washing just the face and armpits. A long-shot possibility: is "Mexican shower" derived from "Mexican divorce", as both are notoriously quick? - Jim Landau PS. Re ethnic slurs on Netherlanders, there is the following (from a folk (?) song that I learned as "Blow Ye Winds High Ho") "The cook was Dutch And behaved as such For all he fed the crew Was a couple of tons Of hot cross buns All mixed with sugar and glue" From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Nov 19 14:07:09 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:07:09 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: <003d01c28f77$001bd760$59b89b3f@db> Message-ID: But can the men in Athens refer to a couple of female lifeguards as "you guys" or "a couple of guys"? They can't over here in Muncie. It's not completely gender-neutral. Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, but of all-female groups only by women. To the extent that men can refer to an all-female group as "you guys" this feels more like a periphrastic 2p than an appositive. A clearly nominal use like "a bunch of guys" still means only an all-male group. But I think all this has already been said on this thread. Herb Stahlke -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of David Bergdahl Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux Here in Athens [female] lifeguards at the cuty pool refer to each other as "guys" so it's gender-neutral here (since 1970 at least). _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Nov 19 14:15:13 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:15:13 -0500 Subject: Problemsome Message-ID: Sen. Arlen Specter was heard in a clip on the news this morning saying the Homeland Security bill was so"problemsome" it made sausage look good by comparison, or words to that effect. This is the first time I've heard "problemsome" but I rather like it. "Problematic" has been so overused it has become tiresome. A. Murie From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Nov 19 15:12:25 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:12:25 -0500 Subject: New York words, speech (1929, 1938 articles) In-Reply-To: <136.1746e667.2b0b4e77@aol.com> Message-ID: At 03:21 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Strangest of all New York's coined words and idioms, perhaps, is "black >hand." James P. McCarthy, a reporter on the old "New York Herald," made it >up and applied it to a Mafia ring which had committed a murder in Brooklyn. >(Possibly true. Perhaps the HERALD TRIBUNE would know about the HERALD. >Hey, the article has to get one right--ed.) The Black Hand handle for a secret society of anarchist or killers goes back to the 1880's at least. There was one in Spain as early as 1883. The most famous "black hand" in my mind is the group to which Gavril Princip, the Serbian assassin of the Archduke in Sarajevo in 1914, belonged. The OED gives 1898 for the Spanish one. The Times has a hit on March 1, 1883, "The Society of the Black Hand and the Troubles in Andulsia." ..."He declared that a society called the 'black hand,' similar to the Internationale, existed." (Some say that it was a conspiracy and a rouse of the Spanish Police and that it never really existed - still La Mano Negra - what ever it was, inflicted terror for about 25 years.) Although McCarthy might have been the first to write it down concerning the "Italian" Black Hand that terrorized New York in the early 1900's, he by no means "made it up." Threats and letters were sent to people with a "black hand" as the signature. (sometimes allegedly in red ink, sometimes with a skull an crossbones) as early as 1904 in New York. It seems only logical that if that was their "signature" that would be what they were called. And its probable they got their idea from the earlier "group" in Spain. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:25:33 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:25:33 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: #Such collocations as "bad guys" and "a guy thing" would seem to #contradict this reasoning, while such horrors as "The Man Show" ("The #Guy Show"?) seem to support it. "Bad guys" and "a guy thing" are in accordance with the emotional -- not gender -- neutrality of "guy". "Bad guys" applies to the villains of a piece, whether fictional ("Showdown at the O.K. Corral"), real (9/11), or uncertain (supply your own), and is generic at the level of "party" or "side". To me, "bad men" must apply to a group small enough and definite enough that all the members can be identified as men; it is almost exclusively a child phrase. ("Badmen", dubious plural of "badman", is a different question whose answer still isn't a counterexample.) "A guy thing", IMHO, means 'something that adult males do and females don't do', whether factually or stereotypically, such as hold spitting contests or compare the size of their motorcycles (larger = better) or cell phones (smaller = better). -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:29:56 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:29:56 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How #many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain #names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a #certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth considering, named John. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:47:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:32 -0500 Subject: Philly food file In-Reply-To: <000201c28f87$b49b51b0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #This article is cited in _American Speech_, "The Submarine Sandwich: Lexical #Variations in a Cultural Context," Eames & Robboy, 1968. I've yet to find #another reference to the term "on the hoke." I think the explanation is #bogus. Has anyone tried to link it to "hoggee", pron. with long o, 'canal boatman'? -- Mark M. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Nov 19 15:51:13 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:51:13 -0500 Subject: Mexican Shower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # "The cook was Dutch # And behaved as such # For all he fed the crew # Was a couple of tons # Of hot cross buns # All mixed with sugar and glue" I know it as "A Capital Ship". Ah: The Digital Tradition lyric database at the Mudcat Cafe, http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=11 has it attributed to Charles Edward Carryl. The version there is the one I know, give or take a couple of typos (cheerily/cherrily) and variations in nonsense words. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 19 15:53:29 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:53:29 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: Note, however, that these names continue to be popular among the general population. Royal and papal names have their own considerations. The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at THEWORLD.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 10:30 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #Notorious bearers of a name may "ruin" the name partially or totally. How #many people get the name Adolf nowadays? Among Kings of England, certain #names such as Henry, Richard, John, and Charles were ruined at least for a #certain number of centuries by having a notorious bearer. And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth considering, named John. -- Mark A. Mandel From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Nov 19 16:31:23 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:31:23 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:29 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >And there has still not been a John II on the English throne. Can anyone >say for sure if there has been a potential one? That is, an heir >apparent, or one close enough at birth for the chance to be worth >considering, named John. No, none close enough, and it occurs so rarely there are only three direct descendants I can recall. The Plantagenet's give two. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster 3rd son of Edward III and father of Henry IV John, Duke of Bedford 3rd son of Henry IV (no issue). [Rumor has it Richard III had an illegitimate son named John]. and the Windsor's had one Prince John, 4th son of George V, uncle of Queen Elizabeth II (died at age 14). Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 17:01:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The line of succession given at > http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list > any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally > unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel > Chatto. Why is Arthur equally unlikely? Is it that having a King Arthur would contradict the notion that the original King Arthur will return to rule Britain some day? Apart from that angle, I would think Arthur would be a name with much more positive royal associations than John. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 19 17:24:47 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:24:47 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: King John II might plausibly hope to live down the failures of the first King John, but no king could live up to the mythical accomplishments of King Arthur. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The line of succession given at > http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/history/succession.htm does not list > any Johns in the next 150 people in line for the throne, but the equally > unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, Arthur David Nathaniel > Chatto. Why is Arthur equally unlikely? Is it that having a King Arthur would contradict the notion that the original King Arthur will return to rule Britain some day? Apart from that angle, I would think Arthur would be a name with much more positive royal associations than John. Fred Shapiro From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 19 18:15:32 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:15:32 -0500 Subject: Korean War Slang (December 1951) In-Reply-To: <3DD915B1.22074.4A133C@localhost> Message-ID: > > Great Scott, nobody remembers my finding that in the Civil War? > >You find so many things, remembering them is a problem! The ADS-L >archives don't seem to contain anything from the Civil War, though >they do cite unsupported comments that the expression may be linked >to General Winfield Scott. On 10 Jan. 2001, Bapopik posted http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0101B&L=ads-l&P=R2482 -- showing "great Scott" from 1864, in "Eye of the Storm", a (presumed) Civil War diary published only recently. Some parts are available on the Web, and many early instances of popular slang are present ... perhaps too many .... I wonder how certain the provenance of these memoirs is. -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 18:20:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:20:32 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/02 10:52:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/ > history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in line > for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, > Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. You seem to have missed number 1 in the line of succession, one Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales. I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must use his first given name, although as far as I know it is customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward VIII, although he was generally known in private life as "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of Hanover became Queen Victoria. Then of course Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte became King Charles XIV John of Sweden, even though he did not have a Charles to his name. And there is the unforgettable Sophie Fredericke Auguste von Anhalt-Zebst. England almost had a historical King Arthur. On the death of Richard the Lion-Hearted, the throne should have gone to Arthur, son of Richard's next younger brother Geoffrey, but was taken instead by Richard's youngest brother John. As for the popularity of John among royals, there is the current King of Spain, Juan Carlos ("John Charles"). If you include the Papacy, there were 23 Popes named John (not counting the Antipope John XXIII) plus two John Paul's. Most popular name in any secular dynasty appears to be Louis, of whom the French had 18, not counting Louis Philippe. - Jim Landau - Jim Landau From douglas at NB.NET Tue Nov 19 18:28:06 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 19 18:44:46 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:44:46 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 01:20 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/19/02 10:52:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, >JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > > > The line of succession given at http://www.begent.freeserve.co.uk/ > > history/succession.htm does not list any Johns in the next 150 people in >line > > for the throne, but the equally unlikely Arthur may be found at number 15, > > Arthur David Nathaniel Chatto. > >You seem to have missed number 1 in the line of succession, one Charles >Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales. > >I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must use his first >given name, although as far as I know it is customary to do so, e.g. Edward >Albert Christian George Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward >VIII, although he was generally known in private life as "David". On the >other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of Hanover became Queen Victoria. You forgot George VI, who had, somewhere in his name, Albert and was called Bertie. But 4-7 names each--is this ridiculous or what? From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Nov 19 18:49:34 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:49:34 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <55.319538ea.2b0bdaf0@aol.com> Message-ID: > I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must > use his first given name, although as far as I know it is > customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George > Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward > VIII, although he was generally known in private life as > "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of > Hanover became Queen Victoria. George VI, christened Albert Arthur Frederick George and known as "Bertie" in private life, selected George upon his coronation. Victoria requested that no future king ever use the name Albert out of respect for her dear departed husband. I believe the "rule" is that the monarch can select any one of his or her given names to rule under. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Nov 19 19:06:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:06:32 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <000001c28ffc$6809abb0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: At 10:49 AM 11/19/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > I don't know if there is a rule that a King of England must > > use his first given name, although as far as I know it is > > customary to do so, e.g. Edward Albert Christian George > > Andrew Patrick David became (temporarily) King Edward > > VIII, although he was generally known in private life as > > "David". On the other hand, Alexandrina Victoria of > > Hanover became Queen Victoria. > >George VI, christened Albert Arthur Frederick George and known as "Bertie" >in private life, selected George upon his coronation. Victoria requested >that no future king ever use the name Albert out of respect for her dear >departed husband. > >I believe the "rule" is that the monarch can select any one of his or her >given names to rule under. So now we just have Prince Albert in the can. . . . From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 19:19:24 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: <3DD8D406.3361.ADB657@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > A subscriber has asked me about this rather dated interjection. The > assumption I've seen made is that it refers to Sir Walter Scott, or > to some archetypal Scotsman. The OED has 1885. I can antedate this > using MoA, but the real interest for me is in the associations: The following citation from ProQuest Historical Newspapers seems to supply at least a little evidence in support of the Winfield Scott theory: 1861 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 4 These gathering hosts of loyal freemen, under the command of the great SCOTT. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Nov 19 21:06:52 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:06:52 -0000 Subject: Great Scott! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The following citation from ProQuest Historical Newspapers seems > to supply at least a little evidence in support of the Winfield > Scott theory: > > 1861 _N.Y. Times_ 22 May 4 These gathering hosts of loyal > freemen, under the command of the great SCOTT. That's another interesting antedating. If one wanted to be picky about the association with General Scott, one would have to put in evidence another example of exactly the words "the great Scott" in "The Guardian Angel", by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr, in which it refers without doubt to Sir Walter Scott ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 19 23:06:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:06:53 -0500 Subject: Bronx Cheer & Brooklyn Razzoo In-Reply-To: <183.1219173d.2b0b44f0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 2:40 AM -0500 11/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > 15 July 1940, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN: >... Sports writers point out the Yankees baseball team >plays in the Bronx and fans' noise of disapproval so named. Same applies to >the "Brooklyn razzoo," they say, Brooklyn baseball fans being the most ardent >in the country. Another name for such labioglossal sounds is "The Bird," >inherited from 19th century theater. The gallery made a hissing sound in >giving an actor "the bird," so-named from hissing sound of a goose; hence >also, "the big bird." More familiar, perhaps, are "razz" and "razzberry," >variants of word raspberry. Love that "labioglossal". larry From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Nov 19 23:28:20 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:28:20 -0800 Subject: Ghetto pour Message-ID: I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online Oxford. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 19 23:57:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:57:44 EST Subject: Neo-Preo; Holidazed; Pinto Beans (1912?) Message-ID: NEO PREO From the Columbus Circle architecture review in today's NEW YORK SUN, 19 November 2002, "Dropping Anchor" by James Gardner, pg. 11, col. 2: If I may re-use a term I coined a few years back, The Caroline is a prime example of "Neo-Preo" architecture, that is, a newly minted, postmodern simulcrum of that most sought-after commodity, the pre-war building. ("A few years back," but probably not in the new NEW YORK SUN...O.T.: I almost had a heart attack when I saw "Windy City" in today's SUN editorial. I told them about my work and asked THE SUN to help defend Charles A. Dana's reputation. No response. This is shaping up to rival the "Big Apple" NEW YORK TIMES disaster, where I ruined several years of my life sending wonderful stuff to Warren Hoge, William Safire (several times), Robert Lipsyte, Sam Roberts, Douglas Martin, Richard Shepard, editorial/opinion (several times)...--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MISC. HOLIDAZED--I'm seeing this word again this year. WELLESLEY FUDGE--I'll probably take a day trip to the Boston area this Thursday. Make any requests now. PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this 1912 book. CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business Library, but I know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on Saturday--but factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." Call # VPM p.v.32,no.28 VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) Author Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS SIBL VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE SIBL VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) AVAILABLE Location SIBL Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 23 cm. Series Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; no. 68. Note "August 30, 1912." Cover title. Includes bibliographical references. Subject Beans -- Southwest, New. Add'l name University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:01:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:01:51 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119132558.049d0850@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 1:28 PM -0500 11/19/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? >Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > Are you forgetting Dorothy Parker's eponymous parrot? OK, it wasn't her son, but it was her parrot. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:02:24 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:02:24 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:24 PM -0500 11/19/02, Baker, John wrote: > King John II might plausibly hope to live down the failures >of the first King John, As Pope John XXIII lived down the ignominy of John XXII. Over centuries had passed between the unpopular John XXII and the "Antipope" John XXIII before *our* John XXIII, Angelo Roncalli, was brave enough to rehabilitate the name in the late 1950's and early 1960's. larry > but no king could live up to the mythical accomplishments of King Arthur. > >John Baker > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:43:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:43:45 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119132558.049d0850@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son "Goliath"? >Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same name--that's usually the way it works.) L From mkuha at BSU.EDU Wed Nov 20 00:57:41 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:57:41 -0500 Subject: artical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/16/02 4:02 PM, Jeff Oliver wrote: > (...) researchers who use google to track > usage or other aspects of English. If you can help... I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but I'll take this as an excuse to mention that the procedures section of an article (see reference below) in Language specifies "To find recent studies (...) targeted searches were done of the Web of Science and the World Wide Web (using the search engine Google)" (649). I found that interesting, since Language, the most prestigious journal in the field, is so relentlessly serious and substantial. Stromswold, Karin. 2001. "The heritability of language: a review and metaanalysis of twin, adoption, and linkage studies." Language 77, 4: 647-723. -Mai From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:13:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:13:21 EST Subject: "Nutty as a fruitcake" (1935 in VILLAGE VOICE) Message-ID: A "fruitcake" article is in this week's VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com, then hit Counter Culture). The article says that "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935. Now rush right to the RHHDAS H-O, go to "nutty" on page 698, and read this: 1912-1914 in E. O'[Neill _Lost Plays_ 171: We sure are as nutty as a fruitcake or we wouldn't be here. For the benefit of the VILLAGE VOICE: Eugene O'Neill was a playwright from Greenwich Village. The RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF SLANG H-O (1997) has been out for over five years now. Where did you get this mis-information? From Robert Hendrickson? John Mariani? DOES ANYONE FACT-CHECK ANYMORE?? If you ADS-Lers want to have real fun like I experience every day of my life, try writing a letter to the editor of the VILLAGE VOICE and get them to correct this. Get treated like dirt! It's fun!!!! (O.T.: Sorry for that "simulacrum" typo in my last post. It's one of my favorite "upscale" words.) Counter Culture by Robert Sietsema A Short History of Fruitcake November 20 - 26, 2002 Abbey of Gethsemani 800-549-0912, www.monks.org Claxton Bakery 800-841-4211, www.claxtonfruitcake.com Collin Street Bakery 800-292-7400, www.collinstreetbakery.com Holy Cross Abbey www.monasteryfruitcake.org Takashimaya 693 Fifth Avenue, 212-350-0100 lame the fruitcake plague on the cheap sugar that arrived in Europe from the colonies in the 16th century. Some goon discovered that fruit could be preserved by soaking it in successively greater concentrations of sugar, intensifying color and flavor. Not only could native plums and cherries be conserved, but heretofore unavailable fruits were soon being imported in candied form from other parts of the world. Having so much sugar-laced fruit engendered the need to dispose of it in some way?thus the fruitcake. By the early 19th century, the typical recipe was heavy as lead with citrus peel, pineapples, plums, dates, pears, and cherries. Whether or not anyone actually enjoyed eating it, fruitcake persisted, finding fertile soil in the New World, especially in places where fresh fruit was difficult to come by. Nuts were introduced into the formula, probably because America's foremost fruitcake makers?Collin Street Bakery in Corsicana, Texas, and Claxton Bakery of Claxton, Georgia?were located in rural Southern communities with a surplus of cheap nuts; indeed, the Corsicana cake includes pecans. The expression "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935. (...) From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:21:06 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:21:06 EST Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: But..... As I probably said last time... some of us (males) CAN use "guys" to address an all female group. I did it today (naturally) and no one even bothered to comment. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:11:05 AM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can > be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, > but of all-female groups only by women. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 02:24:27 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:24:27 EST Subject: Ghetto pour Message-ID: Isn't this just the general "ghetto" adjective? Meaning something like "silly, ridiculous, convoluted, rigged, etc." As in "Did you see that ghetto ride he was driving?" or "You should see my ghetto-ass phonology homework." This is common, no? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 5:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two > referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. > One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it > overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. > > I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online > Oxford. > -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 02:39:12 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:39:12 -0800 Subject: Ghetto pour In-Reply-To: <119.1af634c3.2b0c4c5b@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure how exactly to define it. It seems to mean the sort of pour you would get in a ghetto bar where people expect to get a full glass when they order, so it has a meaning of enhanced value as opposed to "ghetto ride." I don't find the meaning in the OED or AHD4, though. Are there any good online slang dictionaries to check this sort of thing out? Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham Sent: Tuesday, 19 November, 2002 18:24 Isn't this just the general "ghetto" adjective? Meaning something like "silly, ridiculous, convoluted, rigged, etc." As in "Did you see that ghetto ride he was driving?" or "You should see my ghetto-ass phonology homework." This is common, no? -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 5:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > I've heard this from two Seattle friends for the past year or two > referring to beer poured to the top of a pint with no/nearly no foam. > One of them also applied it to the practice of pouring sake so it > overflows out of the masu onto the saucer. > > I don't find this meaning on the Web or any references in the online > Oxford. > From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Nov 20 03:14:20 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:14:20 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, "See those guys?". Herbb -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux But..... As I probably said last time... some of us (males) CAN use "guys" to address an all female group. I did it today (naturally) and no one even bothered to comment. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 8:11:05 AM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Around here, as reported elsewhere, "guys" can > be used of mixed groups by either sex, of all- male groups by either sex, > but of all-female groups only by women. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 06:14:11 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 01:14:11 EST Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: Ah... but I can. I can stand, with a female or a group of females, point to a different group of females, and say "look at those guys". I do it all the time. What I'm not sure about, and what I'll test for weirdness as soon as I can, is whether or not I can stand with a male, or group of males, point to a group of females, and say "look at those guys". What I couldn't do.... and what I'm pretty sure sitcom writers know we can't do (since they seem to exploit it for fun a lot), is stand with a group I have NO connection to, like logicians, point to another group of logicians and say "look at those guys". At least, I can't do it comfortably. So perhaps I can use "guys" with a group of females to a different group of females when I'm actually thinking "look at those fellow students" or something. But it still gets said. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin In a message dated 11/19/2002 9:18:50 PM Central Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > "See those guys?". -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Nov 20 09:05:00 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 02:05:00 -0700 Subject: Pinto beans Message-ID: Barry, If you can't find the cite in the NYPL, I can try to find it here in the University of Arizona library. They are likely to have it, since it was published here. Rudy ------------------------------ PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this 1912 book. CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business Library, but I know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on Saturday--but factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." Call # VPM p.v.32,no.28 VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) Author Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS SIBL VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE SIBL VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) AVAILABLE Location SIBL Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 23 cm. Series Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; no. 68. Note "August 30, 1912." Cover title. Includes bibliographical references. Subject Beans -- Southwest, New. Add'l name University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. ------------------------------ From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Nov 20 11:45:23 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:45:23 -0000 Subject: Problemsome Message-ID: A. Murie wrote: > Sen. Arlen Specter was heard in a clip on the news this morning > saying the Homeland Security bill was so "problemsome" it made > sausage look good by comparison, or words to that effect. This is > the first time I've heard "problemsome" but I rather like it. > "Problematic" has been so overused it has become tiresome If it was Sen. Specter it would not be surprising. Of the 17 examples I've turned up from newspapers going back to 1995, he is the direct quoted source of 11. It would be interesting to know whether he can be claimed to have coined it, or whether it is a well-known regionalism in the US. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 11:48:52 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 06:48:52 EST Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) Message-ID: Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving food story about "turducken." It's behind the ADS-L curve, of course, and there's not even the slightest mention of "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." However, there is one nice quotation in the story. A Southern man said that "turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make you go hime and slap your mama." Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) By AMANDA HESSER NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. He called his masterpiece turducken. In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. "I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." "When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were tantalizing. A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. (...) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 13:35:14 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:35:14 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:14 PM -0500 11/19/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is >a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group >of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, >"See those guys?". > While this distinction is a real one for many speakers (especially us older ones), the non-sex-specific use is gaining in referential as well as vocative uses, as I've discovered whenever I poll my classes on this. (See also Clancy's paper in AS a few issues ago-- Clancy, Steven J. (1999) The ascent of guy. American Speech 74: 282-97.) Context matters, too. I have a number of cites from the (National Champion) UConn women's basketball coach Geno Auriemma in which he referes to his players as "(the) guys", or to a specific player as "my go-to guy". ("Woman" doesn't seem to work here, and "man" is too sex-specific.) But I'm pretty sure "man-to-man" defense is still used, or "man" defense, where no specific reference is intended. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 13:44:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:44:30 -0500 Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) In-Reply-To: <165.16dcd3c5.2b0cd0a4@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:48 AM -0500 11/20/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving >food story about "turducken." It's behind the ADS-L curve, of course, and >there's not even the slightest mention of "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." >However, there is one nice quotation in the story. A Southern man said that >"turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make you go hime and slap your >mama." The only surprise is that Hesser's article doesn't mention John Madden by name, the man who is probably most responsible for the expansion of the lexical item to those of us outside the relevant dialect area when he discusses the turducken during the annual Thansgiving game in Detroit or Dallas on (now) Fox. larry > > >Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) > >By AMANDA HESSER > >NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop >in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an >enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned >turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. >He called his masterpiece turducken. > >In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become >something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. >There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made >it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping >them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production >leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. > >"I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years >back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in >Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." > >"When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken >that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." > >But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling >oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a >chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed >straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were >tantalizing. > >A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine >layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. (...) From mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Wed Nov 20 14:39:31 2002 From: mamandel at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:39:31 -0500 Subject: Turducken Message-ID: My wife passed this on to me in the spirit of the season, unaware (I believe) of our recent discussions on the turducken, the churkendoose, and similar polyavians. -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:04 -0500 >>From today's NY Times: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ November 20, 2002 Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) By AMANDA HESSER ONCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, possibly at a butcher shop in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in South Carolina, an enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, a boned duck and a boned turkey, stuff them one inside the other like Russian dolls, and roast them. He called his masterpiece turducken. In the years that followed its mysterious birth, turducken has become something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast with a beguiling allure. There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's Specialty Meats, who have made it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens each week, and shipping them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving time, Hebert's production leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. "I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came to the fore a few years back," said John T. Edge, the director of the Southern Foodways Alliance in Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has gone mainstream." "When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge added, "he had a turducken that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his freezer." But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an entire turkey in boiling oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a duck stuffed with a chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it prepared. It seemed straightforward from a cooking point of view, and the results were tantalizing. A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a free-form poultry terrine layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with duck fat. When it's assembled, it looks like a turkey and it roasts like a turkey, but when you go to carve it, you can slice through it like a loaf of bread. In each slice you get a little bit of everything: white meat from the breast, dark meat from the legs, duck, carrots, bits of sausage, bread, herbs, juices and chicken, too. I called Paul Prudhomme, the Louisiana chef who has long proclaimed himself the inventor of the turducken. He insisted that to truly understand turducken, you need to bone all of the birds and prepare three stuffings, one for each layer of meat, and cook the whole for 12 hours. (And yet, purist though he is, Mr. Prudhomme would not reveal the name of the lodge in Wyoming where he says he came up with the dish, when exactly he created it, or even his age.) Leaving aside the mystery of its birth, perhaps the more interesting question is why turducken hasn't caught on more north of the Mason-Dixon line, especially at Thanksgiving, when even the most rigid cooks toss aside restraint. There are a few diehard fans, like John Madden, the colorful N.F.L. football analyst, who usually buys three to last him and his broadcast crew through the Thanksgiving Day game. "The first one I ever had I was doing a game in New Orleans," Mr. Madden said. "The P.R. guy for the Saints brought me one. And he brought it to the booth. It smelled and looked so good. I didn't have any plates or silverware or anything, and I just started eating it with my hands." Mr. Madden gets his turduckens from the Gourmet Butcher Block in New Orleans. Between each layer of bird is a different dressing. "And when you get the whole combination the oyster dressing, the spicy dressing and the rest it's pretty doggone good," he said. I thought about ordering a turducken, but had heard the mail-order ones were something like mail-order fruitcakes inconsistent at best. Or I could make one and see for myself what Mr. Madden was talking about. At Hebert's (pronounced ay-BEARS), which has locations in Louisiana, Texas and Oklahoma, the butchers can bone a turkey in two and a half minutes and a chicken in a minute and five seconds. Still, Mr. Prudhomme's words notwithstanding, I am not a masochist. I have boned birds before. It's about as much fun as stripping paint. I called Staubitz, a butcher shop that's been in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn, since 1917. "I'd like to know if you can bone a turkey, duck and chicken for me," I said. "Say that again, nice and easy," John McFadden, the owner, said. So I did. "I know we're a butcher but that's artwork." I pressed my case. I offered to pay extra. "Nope," Mr. McFadden said. "Can't do it. They do it in Louisiana. They don't do it here in New York." I called another butcher, who said you need special equipment to bone poultry. A sharp knife? Another said he wouldn't do it because it was "a royal pain in the neck." Several more calls, though, yielded a handful of butchers who were happy to do the work (mostly for a price, about $10 extra), and I ordered the birds a 3-pound chicken, 4- to 5-pound duck and 10- to 12-pound turkey. These proportions would allow each bird to fit snugly into the next without over-stretching the turkey. A few days later at Lobel's Prime Meats, on Madison Avenue in Manhattan, Stanley Lobel began slicing into a duck, carefully removing the backbone, and then shaving the meat from the rib cage. It was beautiful to watch as the bones emerged and all that was left was a floppy duck "suit." Mr. Lobel has been a butcher for 55 years. It took him 15 minutes to bone the duck. Get a butcher to bone the birds. Mr. Lobel, who has made turducken, and even a capon in a capon, suggested cutting the duck and chicken into four pieces, so you can spread them out over the turkey, allowing the meat to be dispersed more evenly. He kept the wings of the turkey intact, and butterflied the drumsticks in the duck and chicken. Recipes other than Mr. Prudhomme's for what follows are scarce. But it is not difficult to find in the annals of culinary history examples of birds stuffed into birds. There is a reference in the diaries of John B. Grimball from 1832 for a Charleston preserve of fowl. It consisted of a dove stuffed into a quail, a quail into a guinea hen, a hen into a duck, a duck into a capon, a capon into a goose, and the goose into a peacock or a turkey. The whole thing was then roasted and cut into "transverse sections." It makes turducken seem like the lazy way out. Barbara Wheaton, a food historian, said that in the 14th century, peacocks were boned and roasted and re-stuffed into their feathered skin. In his Encyclopedia of Practical Gastronomy, published at the turn of the last century, Henri Babinski, who used the pseudonym Ali-Bab, gives instructions for stuffing boned ortolans into truffles. "In the Republic of Georgia," Darra Goldstein, a professor of Russian at Williams College and the editor of Gastronomica, a journal of food and culture, wrote in "The Georgian Feast" (University of California Press), "there's a very old feast dish that calls for a huge ox roasted on a spit, stuffed successively with a calf, a lamb, a turkey, a goose, a duck, and finally a young chicken, and seasoned throughout with spices. The art lay in ensuring that each type of meat was perfectly roasted." Mr. Edge said, "If this was going on in Charleston in the 19th century, it is likely that some other enterprising cooks in places around the South were preparing this dish previous to Paul Prudhomme's so-called invention of the turducken." "It strikes me as a dish invented by men in a hunt camp," he added, "men who have a snootful, who say, `What would happen if we took this bird and put it in this bird?' " But then again, the Cajuns like to make chaudin, the stomach of a pig stuffed with sausage and peppers, stuffed calves tongue and stuffed pork chops. "Witness the Hebert stuffed fowl list," Calvin Trillin, the New Yorker writer, who has a turducken in his freezer, wrote via e-mail, "and the fact that Cajuns get needles from veterinarians to inject the secret spices into turkeys that are about to be deep fried." Nevertheless, the codified definition of a turducken, and the name itself, is most likely 20th century in origin. But with no details available, its creator remains elusive. "Of course, now everyone's on the bandwagon," said Conrad Comeaux, a tax assessor and home cook in Lafayette, La. Mr. Comeaux once smoked turducken for an hour or so on the grill before roasting it. It turned out well. "Good enough to make you go home and slap your mama," Mr. Comeaux added, using a local expression. Although smoking turducken on my deck in Brooklyn was unlikely to happen, I would roast it in my oven. Turducken, it turns out, is not unlike preparing a turkey with stuffing, and not unlike cooking a rolled and tied butterflied leg of lamb. So that is just how I approached preparing it. I wanted the flavors of the meats to be clear and distinguished, so I developed a stuffing that would complement them, rather than three stuffings muddling the mass. You want the stuffing to be full flavored and sturdy; it should fill the dips and cavities where the bones once were, without making the bird bulky. And if you fill the turkey too full, it will split open when cooking. I sauted cubed pancetta and sausage. With the duck and chicken giblets, I cooked onion, celery, carrot, garlic and aniseed, deglazed the pan with brandy and added tarragon and thyme. Then I folded this together with cubes of dry country bread. Assembling a turducken is simple. You lay the turkey skin side down (if your butcher hasn't butterflied the bird, slice through the skin where the backbone was and open up the bird so it lays flat), season it with salt and pepper and spread it with some of the stuffing. Make sure to tuck some stuffing into the drumsticks. Then lay the duck in the same manner on top of the turkey and repeat. The same goes for the chicken. Then you have a choice: you can sew up the bird using a carpet or upholstery needle and butchers' twine, or thread through each side of the bird with thin skewers and then lace the skewers with twine. I recommend sewing, and enlisting someone to help. Begin at the tail end, folding up the tail skin and pulling the sides of the bird, close to the wings, back together. Stitch the bird from side to side about an inch from each edge, pulling to tighten. Continue sewing up to the neck end, then tie off the string. Flip the bird. You could roast the turducken as is, but its amoebic shape might frighten your guests. I recommend trussing the turducken, as you would a chicken, which will help outline the drumsticks and reform the birds into one plump turducken. Then it's smooth sailing. You put it in a roasting pan, cover it with foil and bake it at 250 degrees. Turducken needs to be roasted at a low temperature so the outer layer of turkey doesn't dry out before the chicken in the middle is cooked. The best method I found was to cook it until cooking juices formed in the pan, then baste it every half hour. You will need a cooking thermometer, because that is the only way to know what's going on inside the turducken. When it reaches 130 degrees, you remove the foil and increase the oven heat. The outside will get brown, and basting will allow the mix of juices to moisten the entire turducken. When the turducken is done, you set it on the platter, collect the cooking juices which are rich and concentrated, like a demiglace in a gravy boat and march both to the table. Give someone who's never encountered a turducken the honor of taking a long thin knife and slicing. "It's about as formidable as a meatloaf," Mr. Trillin said. "It makes everyone into a grand holiday carver. It gives them tremendous confidence. You just slice it." Mr. Edge said, "I wonder how far away we are from turducken being available in Dubuque?" I think you will agree, after you taste it, that we are getting closer and closer. Copyright The New York Times Company From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:01:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:01:30 -0500 Subject: Turducken In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 AM -0500 11/20/02, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >My wife passed this on to me in the spirit of the season, unaware (I >believe) of our recent discussions on the turducken, the churkendoose, >and similar polyavians. > >-- Mark A. Mandel > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:04 -0500 > > >From today's NY Times: > Oops. Cancel my last message. Hesser did mention Madden later in the article. Serves me right for not tracking it down. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:08:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:08:12 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Kleinedler reminds me that it might be relevant to include this cite from actress Joan Allen, via Clancy and our 2000 LSA paper on he-man language, in which we refer to "...the creeping sex-neutrality of gyu(s) in vocative contexts (hey, guys!) and increasingly in referential contexts (one of the guys). This development-radiating outward from the now well-established you guys as a colloquial sex-neutral second person plural pronoun competing with you all, y'all, and youse to the increasingly attested guys as an informal substitute for people or folks (in both male and female speech) to its still somewhat marginal use as a trendy sex-neutral singular as in (6) (6) Steppenwolf was four people and I'm just one guy. -actress Joan Allen hosting Saturday Night Live, 11/14/98, cited in Clancy (1999:287) ..." The motivation here appears to be that "guy" is more informal than the only obvious alternative, "person" or "individual". ("Woman" or "girl" are out here, at least because it implies a contrast with a set of four women, which doesn't accurately characterize the Steppenwolf troupe.) Larry From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 20 15:30:29 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:30:29 -0800 Subject: Turducken (or. Slap Yo' Mama) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Probably after Madden, but Ellen Degeneris had the turducken as a running gag on one of her second show's episodes. That was my first introduction to it. Ed --- Laurence Horn wrote: > At 6:48 AM -0500 11/20/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Surprise, surprise, surprise! Today's NEW > YORK TIMES has a Thanksgiving > >food story about "turducken." It's behind the > ADS-L curve, of course, and > >there's not even the slightest mention of > "tofurkey" or "churkendoose." > >However, there is one nice quotation in the story. > A Southern man said that > >"turducken" is so fine it's "Good enough to make > you go hime and slap your > >mama." > > The only surprise is that Hesser's article doesn't > mention John > Madden by name, the man who is probably most > responsible for the > expansion of the lexical item to those of us outside > the relevant > dialect area when he discusses the turducken during > the annual > Thansgiving game in Detroit or Dallas on (now) Fox. > > larry > > > > > > >Turkey Finds Its Inner Duck (and Chicken) > > > >By AMANDA HESSER > > > >NCE upon a time, possibly at a lodge in Wyoming, > possibly at a butcher shop > >in Maurice, La., or maybe even at a plantation in > South Carolina, an > >enterprising cook decided to take a boned chicken, > a boned duck and a boned > >turkey, stuff them one inside the other like > Russian dolls, and roast them. > >He called his masterpiece turducken. > > > >In the years that followed its mysterious birth, > turducken has become > >something of a Southern specialty, a holiday feast > with a beguiling allure. > >There are some Cajun butchers, like Hebert's > Specialty Meats, who have made > >it their signature, stuffing dozens of turduckens > each week, and shipping > >them frozen around the nation. At Thanksgiving > time, Hebert's production > >leaps to nearly 5,000 a week. > > > >"I think it's like the deep-fried turkey that came > to the fore a few years > >back," said John T. Edge, the director of the > Southern Foodways Alliance in > >Oxford, Miss. "It's a fairly exotic meal that has > gone mainstream." > > > >"When I visited my father in Macon, Ga.," Mr. Edge > added, "he had a turducken > >that he bought cut rate from Sam's Club in his > freezer." > > > >But since many people don't seem to mind dunking an > entire turkey in boiling > >oil, it doesn't seem so ambitious to try stuffing a > duck stuffed with a > >chicken into a turkey, rather than buying it > prepared. It seemed > >straightforward from a cooking point of view, and > the results were > >tantalizing. > > > >A well-prepared turducken is a marvelous treat, a > free-form poultry terrine > >layered with flavorful stuffing and moistened with > duck fat. (...) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 20 15:54:51 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:54:51 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son > "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > > > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while > "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) > > L > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Nov 20 16:00:51 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Pinto beans Message-ID: Hate to tell you this, Barry, but NYU will be going to off-site storage for little used books, as soon as we can find a place that will accept them. Evidently we thought we could build the facility on Staten Island, but the neighbors raised up, clamoring "the garbage dump is bad enough, we will not tolerate books." Even Staten Island folk have their pride, it seems. Books will be fetched on 24 hour notice, according to the plan. But we will see how the plan works out, in practice. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > PINTO BEANS--An antedate to DARE & OED & M-W is probably in this > 1912 book. > CATNYP tells me it's in the Science, Industry and Business > Library, but I > know call numbers and smell "offsite." I'll probably get it on > Saturday--but > factor in a sixty percent chance of the bad old "not on shelf." > > > Call # > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPM+p.v.32%2Cno.28/cvpm+p+v+32+no+28/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">VPM p.v.32,no.28 > > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPG+(Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station.+Bull.+68.)/cvpg+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+bull+68/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) > Author > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aFreeman%2C+George+Fouche%2C+1876-1930./afreeman+george+fouche+1876-1930/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Freeman, George Fouche, 1876-1930. > Title Southwestern beans and teparies / by G.F. Freeman. > Imprint Tucson, Ariz. : [University of Arizona, 1912] > LOCATION CALL NO. STATUS > SIBL > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPM+p.v.+32+no.+28/cvpm+p+v+32+no+28/-5,-1,,E/browse">VPM p.v. 32 no. 28 AVAILABLE > SIBL > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cVPG+(Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station.+Bull.+68.)/cvpg+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+bull+68/-5,-1,,E/browse">VPG (Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. Bull. 68.) > AVAILABLE > Location SIBL > Govt. doc# AES 1.3:B 85/68 azdocs > Descript p. [573]-619, [6] leaves of plates : ill. (some col.) > ; 23 cm. > Series > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tBulletin+(University+of+Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station)+%3B+no.+68./tbulletin+university+of+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station+no+++68/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Bulletin (University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station) ; > no. 68. > Note "August 30, 1912." > Cover title. > Includes bibliographical references. > Subject http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dBeans+-- > +Southwest%2C+New./dbeans+southwest+new/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Beans -- > Southwest, New. > Add'l name > http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aUniversity+of+Arizona.+Agricultural+Experiment+Station./auniversity+of+arizona+agricultural+experiment+station/-5,-1,0,B/browse">University of Arizona. Agricultural Experiment Station. > > ------------------------------ > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 16:12:19 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:12:19 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn quoting from 2000 LSA paper on he-man language: >"...the creeping sex-neutrality of gyu(s) in vocative contexts (hey, >guys!) and increasingly in referential contexts (one of the guys). >This development-radiating outward from the now well-established you >guys as a colloquial sex-neutral second person plural pronoun >competing with you all, y'all, and youse to the increasingly attested >guys as an informal substitute for people or folks (in both male and >female speech) to its still somewhat marginal use as a trendy >sex-neutral singular .........." ~~~~~~~~ While in a satirical piece I wrote for a little mag in 1998 argued for a return to epicenity of "Man, men, he, him and his" on the grounds that the real language problem was just that XY type homo sapiens didn't have a set of nouns and pronouns that belonged only to them, I can now see another way out of the vexing problem of providing the language with a good neutral set: "A guy" and "a guy's" can be substituted for "he or she", "him or her"; "his or her", "his or hers." Of course, we're already doing this quite a lot, we just need to stop mumbling, blushing & giving little knowing nods when doing it in formal discourse! A. Murie From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Nov 20 16:19:08 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:19:08 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5cce095cb102.5cb1025cce09@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my personal files). dInIs This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son > "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? > > > Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while > "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) > > L > -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Nov 20 17:04:41 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:41 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >personal files). > >dInIs ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There is a dentist named Yiping Fang who practices in Ohio. AM From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Nov 20 17:01:21 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:01:21 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <5cce095cb102.5cb1025cce09@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: > This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the > Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become > ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of > the name, we should be we should be discussing people who > became baseball players because they were named Poppup or > linguists because they were named Particple. A few more > positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be > elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it > from an Hypothesis to a Theory. The head of the Religion Department at my undergraduate school was Professor Pope. From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:10:17 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:10:17 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to become a minister) --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:04 PM -0500 sagehen wrote: >> If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >> for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >> Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >> Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >> personal files). >> >> dInIs > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > There is a dentist named Yiping Fang who practices in Ohio. > AM _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:20:06 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:20:06 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <153577.1037794217@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when she was a kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl wrote: > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to > become a minister) **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:30:42 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:30:42 -0500 Subject: Problemsome In-Reply-To: <3DDB75D3.14647.93E203@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > If it was Sen. Specter it would not be surprising. Of the 17 > examples I've turned up from newspapers going back to 1995, he is > the direct quoted source of 11. It would be interesting to know > whether he can be claimed to have coined it, or whether it is a > well-known regionalism in the US. In some quick checking the earliest I come up with is in a Massachusetts legal case: 1979 _North Eastern Reporter, 2d Series_ 396: 157 Bane perceives it as a "problemsome" but "common, everyday occurrence" requiring a pre-seizure notice and hearing. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Nov 20 17:34:19 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:34:19 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: IIRC, the Shandy theory (which was not Tristram's but his Father's) did hold that certain names (for example, "Tristram") were ill-fated, while other ("Trismegistus," "Martin Luther") confer advantages on their holders. I'm not familiar with the Lack refinements to the theory. The theory does not hold that names direct one's fate in a superficial way; I'm not fated to work as a baker, in spite of my surname. I had a college professor who had a related theory, that women choose their husbands on the basis of what their married name would be. I suppose that theory must be weakened with the contemporary practice of wives keeping their maiden names. There must be something to the Shandy theory, or actors wouldn't so routinely change their names for commercial reasons. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: George Thompson [mailto:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 10:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it from an Hypothesis to a Theory. GAT From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:32:16 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:19 AM 11/20/2002 -0500, you wrote: >If that's what this is about, how about Dill L. Pickle, who worked >for Paramount Foods in Louisville, KY (in the famous old article by >Tom Pyles called 'Bible-belt onamastics,' as I recall). My favorite >Louisvillian was, however, the proctologist named Dr. Asman (from my >personal files). > >dInIs Shades of the "Seinfeld" episode where Kramer borrows license plates reading "As(s)man" for his own purposes. . . . >This discussion has drifted away from the true meaning of the >Shandy-Lack Theory. Rather than names that have become ill-omened >because of shame incurred by a previous holder of the name, we should >be we should be discussing people who became baseball players because >they were named Poppup or linguists because they were named >Particple. A few more positive examples of the Theory in action, and >it can be elevated to a Law, just as the example of Upset elevated it >from an Hypothesis to a Theory. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:43 pm >Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > >> >Biblical names are presumably fair game, but who names his son >> "Goliath"?>Or "Judas"? Or "Onan"? >> > >> Actually, more seriously than Onan, it could be remarked that while >> "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the >> taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is >> still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same >> name--that's usually the way it works.) >> >> L > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 >e-mail: preston at msu.edu >phone: (517) 353-9290 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 20 17:39:00 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:39:00 -0800 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena In-Reply-To: <250243.1037784006@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books e.g., Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural history of the Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of fish--ed.] We called such phenomena "appronyms." allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when she was a > kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. > > Peter Mc. > > --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl > wrote: > > > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband decided to > > become a minister) > > > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 18:13:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:13:55 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/2002 7:43:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > while "Judas", the Greek version of the name, is (mostly) blocked by the > taboo avoidance we've been discussing, the Hebrew version Judah is > still alive and well. (At least I assume these are the same > name--that's usually the way it works.) Yes, "Judas" is the Greek version of "Judah", e.g. Judah the Maccabee is frequently referred to as "Judas Maccabeus". "Iscariot" is more problematic. It might be "man of Kariot", which is a town mentioned in Joshua 15:25. Or it might be an erroneous transcription of "Judas Sicariot" = "Judah Ha-Sicarot" = "Judah the Terrorist". The Sicarii were an anti-Roman terrorist group within the Zealot party. If Judas were indeed a Sicari, that offers some interesting possibilities into his motives. It also leads one to wonder why the Apostles should include such a loose catapult. The "Sicariot" emendation was in a book by Isaac Asimov. I have no idea whether the idea was original with Asimov. - Jim Landau From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Nov 20 18:39:22 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:39:22 -0000 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: {HYPERLINK "/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211c&L=ads-l&D=1&P=7269"}A. Maberry wrote: > Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books > e.g., Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural > history of the Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of > fish--ed.] We called such phenomena "appronyms." New Scientist magazine in the UK ran a series of articles in its Feedback column on this phenomenom, ending about five years ago. It called it "nominative determinism". One column (22 June 1996) says: "Chris Aspen takes issue with our name for the phenomenon. We have noted already (20 April) that Carl Jung approvingly followed the psychologist Wilhelm Stekel in calling it 'the compulsion of the name'. But Aspen insists that the American writer Franklin P. Adams got it right when he coined the word 'aptronym'". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Nov 19 22:05:49 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: I think this is a good example of being "inclusive" as opposed to "exclusionary." More about this at the Atlanta ADS. Tom Paikeday ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux > Several months ago we discussed the widespread use of "guy(s)" where one > might well have expected "man/men", even where there was no question of > trying to be gender-inclusive because the reference was quite clearly to > men stricto sensu, adult males of species Homo sapiens. IIRC, we reached > no conclusion or hypothesis as to the reason for this replacement. I > would like to hypothesize a reason: modesty. > > It seems to me that "man" often carries a strong connotation of > "virtus", i.e., manliness, embodiment of the male virtues howsoever > defined. These often include courage, strength, swagger, sexual prowess, > etc., each in its proper place and time. But in the kinds of context > where we see "guy"='man' spreading, explicitly attributing such > characteristics to oneself or one's group would be unseemly boasting. > "Guy" is neutral and suggests a diffidence appropriate to the > conventions of the context. > > Whaddya think, guys? > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 21:01:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:01:16 -0500 Subject: Scampi (1883) Message-ID: SCAMPI THE FISHERIES OF THE ADRIATIC AND THE FISH THEREOF. A REPORT OF THE AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN SEA-FISHERIES, WITH A DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE MARINE FAUNA OF THE ADRIATIC GULF by G. L. Faber London: Bernard Quaritch 1883 This book arrived from "off-site." I had posted "scampo" from 1890. Pg. 141: Each market has its _specialite_ at certain seasons; for instance, Fiume, the _Scampi_ (Norway Lobster); Zara, a great variety of Crustaceans, among which is the Rock Lobster (_Palinurus vulgaris_); Sebenico, the _Dentale della corona_ (_Dentex gibbosus_), whilst at Spalato the Pelamid and the Lichia (_Lizza_) are very abundant. Trieste being the best market, most of the _specialites_ of other markets are sent there for sale, for instance, the _Scampo_ of Fiume, the Tunny of Croatia, and the Rock Lobster from Dalmatia, &c. As a rule, the most valued of the Adriatic fishes are the Basse (_Branzin_), the Dentex (_Dentale_), the Surmullets (_Barbone_ and _Triglia_), the Red, or SPanish Sea-bream (_Ribone_), the Gilt-head (_Orada_); these are always more or less common, especially in autumn and spring. The summer fisheries (Pg. 142) yield the Mackerel (_Scombro_) and its relatives the Tunny (_Ton_), the Pelamid (_Palamida_), and the plain Bonito (_Tombarello_), the latter being only occasionally met with. To these must be added the _Lizza_ (_Lichia amia_). Pg. 274: Scampa salvatica...Galathea strigosa. Scamparello, Scampetto...Galathea scamparella. Scampo morte...Galathea scamparella. Scampa fals a man lunghe...Galathea rugosa. Scampo...Nephrops norvegicus. From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Nov 20 22:51:22 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:51:22 EST Subject: undo confusion Message-ID: This memo came through our campus email: <> I found only 50 examples of this usage on Google. Guess it's still a rarity. - Allan Metcalf From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 21 01:04:53 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:04:53 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Jesus H. Christ" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1892 as its first citation for "Jesus H. Christ." The following is from Mark Twain's Notebooks and Journals 3: 305 (notebook for Aug. 1887 - July 1888): "In correcting the pamphlet-proof of one of [Rev. Alex] Campbell's great sermons, Wales [McCormick] changed 'Great God!' to 'Great Scott,' and changed Father, Son & Holy Ghost to Father, Son, & Caesar's Ghost. In overrunning, he reduced it to Father, Son & Co., to keep _from_ overrunning. And Jesus _H._ Christ." Twain and McCormick had been fellow apprentices on the _Missouri Courier_, Hannibal, where Campbell preached in Nov. 1852. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET Thu Nov 21 03:41:47 2002 From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:41:47 -0600 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux Message-ID: And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just "youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Stahlke" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux > My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, is > a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group > of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > "See those guys?". > > Herbb > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Nov 21 04:33:23 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:33:23 -0500 Subject: "man" vs. "guy" redux In-Reply-To: <007d01c2910f$eb496d30$6f01a8c0@HP> Message-ID: But 'youse' alone is common on the East Coast; my in-laws in Baltimore used it all the time. At 09:41 PM 11/20/2002 -0600, you wrote: >And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral >pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that >second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label >it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's >last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just >"youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Herbert Stahlke" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:14 PM >Subject: Re: "man" vs. "guy" redux > > > > My point exactly. As I went on to say, "you guys", as a form of address, >is > > a periphrastic 2p, not the lexical "guy". I can say "you guys" to a group > > of women, but I can't point to a group of women and say to someone else, > > "See those guys?". > > > > Herbb > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Nov 21 13:38:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:38:29 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: <007d01c2910f$eb496d30$6f01a8c0@HP> Message-ID: At 9:41 PM -0600 11/20/02, Millie Webb wrote: >And then there is the U.P. (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) gender neutral >pronoun, "youse guys" and "youse guys's" (yes, I have heard even that >second one on enough occasions from more than one person, to actually label >it "productive" as a dialectal phrasing, and not just one confused person's >last-second scramble.) And you can't (for the most part anyway) use just >"youse" in the UP, in my experience: it has to be "youse guys". -- Millie > I've never been to the U.P. so it must have been in non-Youper contexts that I've heard "youse guys's" for the plural possessive. Speaking of which, or rather of an old related topic, I was at the pharmacy counter of my health plan a couple of weeks ago (the only person standing there waiting to pick up a prescription) and the pharmacist (female, 30-ish, African-American) chastised me (pointing to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all have to stand back there". Definitely a second-person singular "y'all", although it could be argued that it designated "you and anyone else (not now present) in your situation". Larry From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 21 16:23:52 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:23:52 -0800 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all have to stand back > there". Definitely a second-person singular "y'all", although it > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone else (not now > present) in your situation". yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a singular. Must be part of that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill Clinton. Peter R. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 21 17:21:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:21:51 -0500 Subject: Black Hand Message-ID: BLACK HAND--The person who supposedly coined "black hand" on the NEW YORK HERALD had a NEW YORK TIMES obituary in 1920. He had worked on a Brooklyn newspaper before the HERALD. No doubt that he used "black hand" and that he was in the journalism business for 30+ years, but in no way did he coin "black hand." Strike another one from that article on New York words (from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, found in the Temple University clippings). WELLESLEY--I walked all day, passing Babson and Olin colleges, before I found this place. The college is nowhere near public transportation. It's now just after 12, so the archives is closed for lunch... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 21 20:24:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:24:46 -0500 Subject: Wellesley Fudge (1896) Message-ID: Quickly, before I miss the train into Boston. 14 March 1896, THE WELLESLEY MAGAZINE, pg. 306: Betty's blue eyes danced. Her one culinary accomplishment was the manufacture of "fudge," and she feared that would scarcely be of practical value of second street. 18 April 1896, THE WELLESLEY MAGAZINE, pg. 396: This year we have been decidedly gay, with our receptions, open meetings, the Colonial Dance, and the Fudge Sale, besides the usual class socials. 1898, LEGENDA (Yearbook), pg. 14: Prehistoric forms of Fudge were unknown to us as Freshman (sic) in '94... The Wellseley Fudge Cake is in Baker's ads, "Circa 1898." Maybe I'll post that recipe in the wee morning hours after my return home. I also have here Baboon (An Excellent Supper Dish), Urney Pudding, Stickies, Weary Willie Cake, Mahfuh (From a Friend in Iraq), "Spider" Cake (A Very Old New England Recipe) (Next DARE has--?--ed.), Flake Cake (An Old New Hampshire Recipe), and Chocolate Crunchies (Brownie's Cousin), if anyone wants those recipes from the Wellesley cookbooks. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 20:45:11 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:45:11 -0500 Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: "Appronym" is a good word. A popular book of the early 70s on animal behavior: The imperial animal [by] Lionel Tiger & Robin Fox. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Maberry" Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:39 pm Subject: Re: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena > Years ago we kept a list of authors and the titles of their books > e.g.,Fish, Marie Poland, 1932- Contributions to the natural > history of the > Burbot, Lota maculosa (Lesueur) [a type of fish--ed.] > > We called such phenomena "appronyms." > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > > On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > > > Believe it or not, my mother had a dentist named Dr. Payne when > she was a > > kid, my dad had a Dr. Acres, and my sister and I had a Dr. Molar. > > > > Peter Mc. > > > > --On Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:10 PM -0500 David Bergdahl > > wrote: > > > > > We had a dentist named Dr. Payne but she moved (her husband > decided to > > > become a minister) > > > > > > > > > ****************************************************************************> Peter A. McGraw > > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > > > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Nov 21 20:49:35 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:49:35 -0500 Subject: Wellesley Fudge (1896) In-Reply-To: <342554E9.00C1E71F.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Barry writes: > I also have here Baboon (An Excellent Supper Dish), Urney Pudding, >Stickies, >Weary Willie Cake, Mahfuh (From a Friend in Iraq), "Spider" >Cake (A Very Old >New England Recipe) (Next DARE has--?--ed.), Flake Cake >(An Old New >Hampshire Recipe), and Chocolate Crunchies (Brownie's >Cousin), if anyone >wants those recipes from the Wellesley cookbooks. Yes, what is Baboon? - A. Murie (that is not meant to be an answer) From ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 21:41:03 2002 From: ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM (Kathy Schlieper) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:41:03 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being used often...instead of "child"? In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby goat" and not a child! Kathy __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 22:12:05 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:12:05 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: <20021121214103.26220.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My father said the same thing in the 50's --- Kathy Schlieper wrote: > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain > about > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > goat" and not a child! > > Kathy > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 21 22:14:55 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:14:55 -0800 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought "y'all" was 2nd person singular, "all y'all" was 2nd person plural. --- Peter Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all > have to stand back > > there". Definitely a second-person singular > "y'all", although it > > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone > else (not now > > present) in your situation". > > yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a > singular. Must be part of > that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill > Clinton. > > Peter R. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Nov 21 22:26:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:26:54 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, says that by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Kathy Schlieper [mailto:ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being used often...instead of "child"? In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby goat" and not a child! Kathy From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Nov 21 22:26:05 2002 From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:26:05 -0500 Subject: Wellesley & Public Transportation (was Black Hand) In-Reply-To: <2D10076F.1012C164.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: From: Bapopik at AOL.COM: > WELLESLEY--I walked all day, passing Babson and Olin colleges, before I > found this place. The college is nowhere near public transportation. Hey! Wellesley College *is* near public transportation! It?s just a 10-15 minute walk from the Wellesley Square stop on the commuter rail (the Framingham/Worcester line leaving from South Station in Boston). A one-way ride costs $3. It?s true that Wellesley is nowhere near the Green Line portion of the T, but commuter rail is part of mass transit too. I never could understand why the admissions office told visitors to take the Green Line out to Riverside and take a cab from there, when taking the commuter rail is faster, closer, and easier, but whatever. Now, *Babson* is nowhere near public transportation. I don?t know Needham well enough to comment about Olin. Judy Yeh (Wellesley class of 2000) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:12:42 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:12:42 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: A teacher I had in grade school also (1940s) -- she also objected on philological grounds to any kid saying that he was going to beat up another kid, since only eggs were to be beaten up. She drew a picture of an egg-beater on the blackboard to illustrate the point. She probably wouldn't have objected to a kid saying that he was going to whack the bejeesus out of another kid, though I don't believe the situation ever arose. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Smith Date: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:12 pm Subject: Re: "kid" vs. "child" > My father said the same thing in the 50's > > > --- Kathy Schlieper > wrote: > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > > used often...instead of "child"? > > > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain > > about > > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > > goat" and not a child! > > > > Kathy > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > > now. > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:15:19 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:15:19 -0800 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nevertheless I think I've noticed a usage shift during my lifetime. Sure I heard the usual lame jokes, when I was a kid, about how "kids" were really baby goats. But I don't remember hearing "kid"='child' used in the singular until my son was of "kid" age--except in direct address and in fairly specific contexts. "Hey, kid!" was usually used by an older (or at least bigger) boy to challenge or menace a younger one. A little later on I remember a fad among girls to use it in direct address to each other (but never to boys) in a different context--e.g., "Oh, kid, you should have seen what I saw the other day..." But I don't recall a straight singular "kid," and when my parents would talk about their childhood my mother would say, "When I was a child..." and my dad would say, "When I was a boy..."--never, "When I was a kid." Yet both of them addressed my sister and me as "you kids" all the time. When my son came home from nursery school one day and explained that "each kid gets one cookie," it struck me as an innovation. Am I making this all up, or do others have similar recollections? Peter Mc. --On Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:26 PM -0500 "Baker, John" wrote: > The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, says that > by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathy Schlieper [mailto:ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "kid" vs. "child" > > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > goat" and not a child! > > Kathy **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Nov 21 23:16:31 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:16:31 -0500 Subject: Murderers' Row Message-ID: A baseball historian -- John Thorn -- has just posted a question on an NYC history bulletin board about the origin of the phrase murderers' row. I thought that it had been discussed here, some time ago, but did not find it in the Archives back to 1999. The seeming link from that part of the archives to the older material takes me to the ADL homepage and I don't see a link from there to the old archives. What am I doing wrong? Or does anyone have the Murderers' Row material to hand? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Nov 21 23:51:08 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:51:08 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: <20021121221455.91522.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it possible that y'all used in the singular is polite? Herb -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James Smith Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) I thought "y'all" was 2nd person singular, "all y'all" was 2nd person plural. --- Peter Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > to the roped-off area a few yards back), "Y'all > have to stand back > > there". Definitely a second-person singular > "y'all", although it > > could be argued that it designated "you and anyone > else (not now > > present) in your situation". > > yep, yep, heard in Arkansas as well: y'all for a > singular. Must be part of > that Arkansas / New Haven axis pioneered by Bill > Clinton. > > Peter R. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 03:29:26 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:29:26 -0500 Subject: 2d plurals (was: "man" vs. "guy" redux) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:51 PM -0500 11/21/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >Is it possible that y'all used in the singular is polite? > >Herb That's what I was thinking, that it's another round in the same cycle (although in this case, it would have been very much ritualized politeness). In fact, we may have discussed this possibility back a few years ago when we were discussing "y'all". I had just never had one addressed to me (sing.) before. larry From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Nov 22 05:22:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:22:39 -0500 Subject: "German" measles Message-ID: Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but offers no explanation. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 06:10:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:10:44 EST Subject: Baboon, Urney Pudding, Stickies, Weary Willie Cake Message-ID: MISC.: Yes, I took the 3:57 train back to Boston. But the Green Line "T" is nowhere near Wellesley. I saw a sign that said Boston is 10 miles away. I walked at least five miles...The Boston Public Library had NOTHING. The LOC and NYPL both have edition three of the Boston Phoenix CHEAP EATS (1975). The BPL had the same edition. A librarian told me that they "don't have every book." Well, yeah, but this is a book about Boston restaurants, and this is the Boston Public Library. No menu collection, no newspaper clippings files, no newspaper indexes, either. I took the 7 p.m. bus home. THE WELLESLEY COOK BOOK edited by the Utah Wellesley Club ("S.I.: S.n., n.d." One author was Class of 1918, if that helps--ed.) Pg. 24: _BABOON--(An Excellent Supper Dish)--_ One-half cup of milk; 1 heaping teaspoonful butter, melted in milk, in chafing dish; 5 eggs, dropped in hot milk. As soon as the eggs begin to thicken add the solid part of can of tomato or about two cups. Stir throroughly all the time and add salt, pepper, paprika and sugar to taste. Serve on crisp crackers. MASSACHUSETTS. Pg. 36: _URNEY PUDDING--_ Two eggs; their weight in butter, sugar and flour; 1 teaspoonful soda; 1 tablespoonful raspberry jam. Beat butter and sugar to cream, add eggs one by one, beating lightly. Then add raspberry jam and soda and lastly flour. Beat well. Grease pudding basin and boil for two hours. Tie a cloth over the top and set in pan of boiling water. NEW JERSEY. Pg. 38: _STICKIES--_ (Next DARE?--ed.) Make a good biscuit dough (beaten biscuit dough), roll thin; take a large cup of brown sugar, the same cup of molasses, a little more than half a cup of butter. Cream butter and sugar together and spread on the dough. Cut in pieces one and a half inches, roll and set on end and pour syrup over them after placing in a baking pan. NORTH CAROLINA. Pg. 41: _WEARY WILLIE CAKE--_ One cup sugar; 1 cup flour with 1 teaspoonful baking powder sifted in. Mix these two together. A scant one-third cup melted butter. Break a whole egg in a cup and fill cup with milk. Pour this into sugar and flour. Put in vanilla and a little pinch of salt. Beat all with a Dover egg beater and bake. This makes eight cup cakes. IOWA. (Can we use "Dover egg beater" to date this book?--ed.) FAVORITE RECIPES OF WELLESLEY ALUMNAE Compiled by Wellesley-ni-Westchester for the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Fund of Wellesley College, 1875-1950 Pg. 26: _MAHFUH_ _From a Friend in Iraq_ Use fresh young _grape leaves_ if available. (If not, use cabbage leaves wilted inboiling salted water.) Better do a few at a time. Mix well (1 1/4 pounds finely ground meat_ and 1 cup uncooked rice_. Roll firmly in grape (or cabbage) leaf to about finger size but shorter. Pack closely in kettle; put plate on top to hold down firmly. Add _2 cups boiling water_; boil for 1 1/2 hours, adding more water as rice swells. (There should be very little gravy when done.) Remove to platter; pour hot _tomato juice_ over all. Angelina _Kuhl_ Southard, '03 Pg. 66: _"SPIDER" CAKE_ (Next DARE?--ed.) _A Very Old New England Recipe_ 1 1/2 cups corn meal 1/2 cup white flour 1/3 cup sugar 1 teaspoon salt 2 teaspoons baking powder 1 teaspoon soda 1 cup sour milk 2 eggs, beaten 2 cups sweet milk Sift first five ingredients. Add soda to sour milk; add eggs to 1 cup sweet milk; stir in thoroughly. Pour into well buttered "spider" (frying pan). Just before baking, pour second cup sweet milk into center; do not stir. Bake until golden (about 25 minutes). Turn out on large round plate. Should be consistency of custard. Alice _Manson_ Barlow, HPR '09 Pg. 99: _FLAKE CAKE_ _An Old New Hampshire Recipe_ (Not in DARE or Mariani--ed.) 1/2 cup shortening 1/2 cup sugar 3 egg yolks, unbeaten 1 teaspoon clove 1 1/2 cups flour 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup molasses, with scant 1/2 teaspoon soda 1/2 cup sour milk, with scant 1/2 teaspoon soda Cream shortening and sugar; add egg yolks and clove. Beat well. Add flour sifted with salt, alternately with liquids (molasses with soda and sour milk with soda). Bake in three greased and floured 8-inch layers (or in two 9-inch layers) at 375 degrees for about 20 minutes. Cool. FROSTING AND FILLING: Boil _1 cup sugar_ in 1/4 cup water_ until it will thread from spoon; pour onto _3 stiffly beaten egg whites_ and beat until cold. Ella _Robinson_ Rose, x'01 Pg. 104: _CHOCOLATE CRUNCHIES_ _Brownies' Cousin_ 2 squares chocolate, melted 1/2 cup butter 1 cup sugar 2 eggs, unbeaten 1/2 cup flour 1/2 teaspoon vanilla 1/2 cup nut meats, chopped fine Mix ingredients (except nuts) in order given in top of double boiler. Pour into shallow pan. Spead nuts on top. Bake at 400 degrees for about 15 minutes. Cut in squares. Esther _Lacount_ Card, '22 Pg. 104: _SNIPPY DOODLES_ 1 tablespoon butter 1 cup brown sugar 1 egg, well beaten 1/2 cup milk 1 cup flour 1 teaspoon baking powder 1 teaspoon cinnamon Cream butter and sugar; add remaining ingredients. Bake in buttered pan in moderate oven for 15 to 20 minutes. While hot sprinkle with sugar. Cut in squares. Florence L. Ellery, '88 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 07:08:18 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:08:18 EST Subject: Wellesley Tea Room Fudge Cake (circa 1898) Message-ID: For the final DARE volume? FAVORITE RECIPES OF WELLESLEY ALUMNAE Compiled by Wellesley-in-Westchester for the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary Fund of Wellesley College, 1975-1950 Pg. 94: _WELLESLEY TEA ROOM FUDGE CAKE_ _The Original Recipe_ 2/3 cup butter 2-2/3 cups brown sugar, well packed 1 whole egg and 3 egg yolks, well beaten 4 squares unsweetened chocolate 2/3 cup boiling water 1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder 2-2/3 cups sifted pastry flour 2/3 cup thick sour milk 1 1/4 teaspoons soda. dissolved in milk 1 teaspoon vanilla Salt Cream butter and sugar; add eggs. Dissolve chocolate in boiling water; stir to consistency of thick paste and add. Add baking powder to flour; add alternately with milk (and soda). Add vanilla and salt. Bake in two 9-inch square pans in moderate oven. Fill and frost with chocolate frosting and chopped nuts. (Serves 24.) Alice G. Coombs, '93 (1893--ed.) EDITOR'S NOTE: To many alumnae the recipe for the famous Fudge Cake served in the original Wellesley Tea Room will be the "sine qua non" of this book. Although recent alumnae may remember only Miss Snow's Blue Dragon or Seiler's, Alice Coombs and her sister, Grace, '94. ran "The Tea Room" for many years. Miss Coombs writes, "I found the recipe originally in a Boston newspaper and changed the measurements from cups to weights for greater accuracy. I have now tried to get it back to cups again, as I did not keep the original clipping. THe brown sugar for the cake weighed 14 1/2 ounces and the flour weighed 10 ounces." BAKER'S AD (1982 General Foods Corporation copyright date is shown--ed.) _Baker's Masterpiece Series_ _Wellesley Fudge Cake._ _Circa 1898._ _Only the Finest Real Baking Chocolate Would Do._ In 1898, two Wellesley graduates spotted an intriguing recipe for chocolate fudge cake in a Boston newspaper. No doubt, they used Baker's baking chocolate for its unique richness. Baker's had already been making fine chocolate for 135 years. The graduates made the cake for the Wellesley Tea Room. And this simple, incredibly fudgy cake has been famous ever since. Taste it tonight. _Classic Fudge Frosting_ Melt 4 squares BAKER'S Unsweetened Chocolate and 2 tablespoons butter or margarine over very low heat. Combine 4 cups unsifted confectioners' sugar, a dash of salt, 1/2 cup milk and 1 teaspoon vanilla; add chocolate mixture, blanding well. Let stand, if necessary, until spreading consistency, stirring occasionally. Spread quickly, adding a small amount of additional milk if frosting thickens. Makes about 2 1/2 cups. _Wellesley Fudge Cake_ 4 squares BAKER'S unsweetened chocolate 1/2 cup _each_ hot water _and_ sugar 1 teaspoon vanilla 1 3/4 cups sifted all-purpose flour* 1 teaspoon _each_ baking soda _and_ salt 1/2 cup butter or margarine 1 1/4 cups sugar 3 eggs 3/4 cup milk *Or use 2 cups sifted SWANS DOWN Cake Flour Heat chocolate with water over very low heat, stirring until mixture is smooth. Add 1/2 cup sugar; cook and stir 2 minutes longer. Cool to lukewarm. Add vanilla. Sift flour, soda and salt. Cream butter. Gradually beat in the sugar; continue beating until fluffy. Beat eggs in thoroughly, one at a time. Add flour and milk alternately, beating after each addition until smooth. Blend in chocolate mixture. Pour into 2 greased and floured 9-inch layer pans. Bake at 350 degrees for 30 to 35 minutes, or until cake tests done. Cool 10 minutes; remove from pans and finish cooling on racks. Fi and frost with Classic Fudge Frosting. Garnish if desired. _For high altitude areas_: In chocolate mixture, use 1/3 cup sugar; use 3/4 teaspoon baking soda. Add 2 tablespoons each flour and milk; bake at 375 degrees. CHASE, MARY (Mrs. Harry Curtis Lockwood) (Clipping from November 1955 WELLESLEY ALUMNAE MAGAZINE?--ed.) (...) Her sister Alice writes, "Mary and Clara Shaw '97 established The Wellesley Tea Room in '97. In 1900 she and Carolyn _Rogers_ Hill (1900) started The Wellesley Inn where the famous Wellesley Fudge Cake originated. (So it was The Wellesley in in 1900, and not the Wellesley Tea Room in 1898? Mary Chase "retired to Washington, in good health and very young in spirit." Is there a Washington obituary?--ed.) HANDWRITTEN NOTE IN FILE Wellesley Fudge Cake 1/2 cake Baker's chocolate melted 2 eggs 2 cups brown sugar 1/2 cup sour milk (or buttermilk) 1/2 cup cold water 1 teasp. soda 2 cups flour 1 teasp. vanilla Bake in two layers and put together with frosting and English walnuts Frosting 2 1/2 cups brown sugar 1/2 cup cream 2 squares chocolate Butter size walnut 1 cup Eng. walnuts added after cooking Cream butter, add sugar, then melted chocolate, eggs, milk and water, flour, etc. Frosting When cooked, (stir until sugar and chocolate melt but not during cooking) let cool before stirring down. If frosting is of the right consistency it takes quite a lot of time to stir it down. Kindly do not give this recipe away freely, as I obtained it on that condition! J.W.P. (Josephine W. Pitman, Class of 1912) WELLESLEY: PART OF THE AMERICAN STORY by Alice Payne Hackett New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc. Publishers 1949 Pg. 57: There were disappointments, too, in store for Henry Durant when he came to cope with three hundred intelligent, active girls in their teens. It was one of his principles that "pies, lies and doughnuts should never have a place in Wellesley College." (If they're interested, I've got pies, lies, doughnuts, and chocolate right here in the Popik Collection--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 08:47:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 03:47:19 EST Subject: "Negroni" pre-1950? Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower asked about a pre-1950 "Negroni." THE CRAFT OF THE COCKTAIL by Dale DeGroff New York: Clarkson Potter 2002 Pg. 158: _NEGRONI_ Created in Florence, Italy, in the 1920s, at the Casani Bar, when customer Count Camillo Negroni asked the barman to add gin to his Americano. This drink can be made with vodka in place of gin. 1 ounce Campari 1 ounce sweet vermouth 1 ounce gine Flamed orange peel (see page 58), for garnish Combine all the ingredienmts in an iced old-fashioned glass and stir. Garnish with the flamed orange peel. I have tons of 1930s (Post-Prohibition) drink books, and this drink is not in any one of them that I just went through. For example, it's not in 1700 DRINKS. It's not in ESQUIRE'S HANDBOOK FOR HOSTS (1949). It's not in Crosby Gaige's drink book of 1944 (that had the "Bloody Mary," for example). I'll look around some more, checking the usual databases. Interesting is this authoritative book: TED SAUCIER'S BOTTOMS UP New York: Greystone Press 1951 INDEX: Negrone (Italian aperitif)...176 Negroni Capriccio...176 Negroni Doney...177 Negroni-Ritz of Paris...177 (O.T.: That's it for helping Sheidlower. Come this Saturday, he's getting beans from me.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Nov 22 12:39:07 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:39:07 -0500 Subject: "German" measles In-Reply-To: <200211220022_MC3-1-1C1A-EDCA@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Rubella seems to be dropping out of the langauge (at least outside medical circles). On this morning's local news (Lansing), a young woman who had a child and dropped out of high school was featured in a story about dropouts. Her name was "Rubella." Luckily, she named her child Maryanne. dInIs Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but offers no explanation. --Dodi Schultz -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Nov 22 12:26:12 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:26:12 -0500 Subject: German measles Message-ID: German measles appears in OED with 1875 as the earliest date. A search of Google produced an article with reference to Liberty measles, a substitution prompted by the "unpatriotic" association with German in time of war when Germany was an adversary. No hits were produced for German measles in either repository in Making of America. I will be at Vassar later today with access to other data banks. More later. David Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com SEE THE CALL FOR PAPERS www.ilaword.org From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 14:15:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:15:36 EST Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: In a message dated 11/21/02 4:51:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM writes: > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > used often...instead of "child"? Billy the Kid, born about 1860 the Sundance Kid and Kid Curry, both members of the last great Wild West outlaw gang, "The Wild Bunch", active in the 1890's and into the 1900's the Yellow Kid, a confidence man who was well known in the 1920's if not earlier I think there was an early comic strip entitled "The Yellow Kid" John R. Tunis "The Kid From Tompkinsville" published in the late 1930's, with several sequels, including "The Kid Comes Back". The title character was frequently referred to in the text simply as "the Kid". - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 22 14:20:45 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:20:45 EST Subject: Murderers' Row Message-ID: 2nd attempt to send this post---first one disappeared into the bit bucket Subj: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/23/02 8:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > >To: "19cBB" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "John Thorn" >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:38:05 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Murderers' Row >More in the rummaging vein. I hope this of interest. > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from a >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: > >Murderers' Row was an actual alley long before the Civil War, starting where >Watts Street ended at Sullivan Street, midway along the block between Grand >and Broome Streets. > >Now part of the fashionable Soho district, Murderers' Row was one of many >mean streets in the neighborhood later known as Darktown (as the Chinese had >Chinatown and the Jews had Jewtown--yes, that was what they called the Lower >East Side in the years before 1900). > > > >John Thorn > Subj: Re: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/24/02 9:39:21 AM Eastern Standard Time From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Jerry, I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? Jesse Sheidlower Subj: Re: Fwd: Murderer's Row Date: 10/24/02 11:08:06 AM Eastern Standard Time From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Dickson's New Baseball Dictionary gives an 1858 date for baseball use of "murderers' row," but says the jail usage predates that and is the ultimate origin. Only indirect citations are given. Dickson cites an April 1948 "Baseball Digest" article by Bill Bryson (either a different Bill Bryson or a typo in the date) that refers to an 1858 newspaper article. Also a Ph.D. dissertation by Edward J. Nichols, "An Historical Dictionary of Baseball Terminology" (1939) refers to an 1858 clipping in Henry Chadwick's scrapbook that uses the term. From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Nov 22 14:24:32 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:24:32 -0000 Subject: German measles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dodi Schultz wrote: > Does anyone on the list know the origin (and reason) for the term > "German" measles, as the viral infection rubella was formerly > known? The question's come up in the CompuServe words section. One > of my dictionaries says it started in the mid-19th century but > offers no explanation. Intriguingly, the index to "Horsefeathers", by Charles Earle Funk, says "French measles, see under German measles". Mr Funk says it was so named because it was first described by a German physician, Friedrich Hoffmann, in 1740. Several Web sites say the same thing. My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which is well after the OED's first entry. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Nov 22 17:10:57 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:10:57 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <3DDE3E20.31166.5C2339@localhost> Message-ID: Could someone, pretty please with sugar on top, do a Westlaw search for me on that for legal/military first use? And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" Is it? Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 17:24:22 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:24:22 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > Could someone, pretty please with sugar on top, do a Westlaw search for me > on that for legal/military first use? Hayward v. Bath SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE 40 N.H. 100; 1860 N.H. LEXIS 124 January, 1860 OPINION: ... [*105] [**7] sound law, exactly and literally as it is printed, the evidence fell entirely short of bringing the commissioners for Grafton county, or either of them, within its condemnation, and utterly failed to prove the petitioners [**8] guilty of the improprieties charged against them. As this discussion and analysis of the evidence could not be of general interest, they are omitted. The opinion concluded as follows:] We have thus adverted to all the exceptions charging the commissioners with corruption, partiality and improper conduct, and to all the substantial portions of the evidence by which those charges are attempted to be sustained, and the result, at which we have most unhesitatingly arrived, is, that the charges are entirely unsustained. So far as we can discover, the evidence discloses nothing to prove that either of the commissioners acted corruptly, under any improper bias or prejudice, or was in any way guilty of conduct unbecoming his official position. On the contrary, the very full and satisfactory statement of Mr. Parker, the chairman of the board, in his deposition, of the way and manner in which the whole case was considered by them after the close of the hearing, and of the very deliberate and careful examination they gave to it for nearly twenty-four hours, almost demonstrates that there never could have been the slightest foundation in truth for the numerous charges and assumptions involved [**9] in the various exceptions taken to the conduct and motives [*106] of the commissioners. Indeed, the testimony offered by the town shows most clearly the honesty and purity of purpose of Mr. Culver, whose conduct is most strongly assailed, and that he could have been actuated only by his conviction of what the public accommodation demanded; for it ... Fred Shapiro > > And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and > Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he > wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" > > Is it? > > Katy > > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 18:09:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:09:37 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: My previous posting was from Lexis. Here's earlier evidence from Westlaw: Reformed Protestant Albany Dutch Church of Albany v. Bradford 8 Cow. 457 N.Y.Sup. 1826. December Term, 1826 no services have been rendered by the plaintiff since the 2d of December, 1820. Having been suspended for conduct unbecoming the ministerial character, he stands in no better situation than if he had, without cause, refused to render the services stipulated by his contract. Considering those services not only as the consideration, but the condition on which his right to the salary depends, and he having failed in performance of that condition, he has no right to the salary. The defendants are entitled to judgment. [This is from the dissenting opinion of Judge Savage.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Nov 22 18:26:18 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:26:18 -0500 Subject: "Conduct Unbecoming" in 1777 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: The following appears in the Writings of George Washington, ed. John C. Fitzpatrick, vol. 10, page 137: GENERAL ORDERS Head-Quarters, White Marsh, December 3, 1777 ... The Court having considered the first charge and the evidence, are of opinion that Capt. Duffey behaved with a warmth, which tended to produce a riot, and do sentence him to be reprimanded in General Orders. Upon the second charge they are of opinion that Major Howard, when Capt. Duffey struck him, had deviated from the line of his duty, and consequently was not in the execution of his office. They do therefore acquit Capt. Duffey of the second charge. The foregoing opinions are approved by the Commander in Chief, and the sentences of reprimand appear to be pronounced with great justness, on an impropriety of conduct unbecoming the character of officers, whose dutyit is to suppress all riot and tumult, and to set examples of moderation, decency and order. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Nov 22 22:24:07 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 17:24:07 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021122120416.00b13010@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > And did anyone notice a few weeks back the furor between Mitt Romney and > Shannon O'Brien over the supposed "misogynistic" "gender specific" "he > wouldn't have said it I were a MAN" use of the word "unbecoming?" It was impossible to be within radio/television reception distance of Massachusetts and not hear it. In fact, WBZ Radio interviewed me (calling me at home at 6:45 AM) about the whole incident (ten minutes of interview reduced to a five second sound bite), so actually was a part of the media circus that ensued. This incident was written about extensively in the Boston Globe for several days (and I would imagine the Boston Herald, too). Their archives should reflect a fair amount of ink devoted to it. The radio folks (Jon Keller, etc.) also weighed in with commentary. -- Steve From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Nov 23 00:19:00 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:19:00 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" Message-ID: There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my wife, but O!, you kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. I can't document it right now, though. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter A. McGraw" Date: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:15 pm Subject: Re: "kid" vs. "child" > Nevertheless I think I've noticed a usage shift during my > lifetime. Sure I > heard the usual lame jokes, when I was a kid, about how "kids" > were really > baby goats. But I don't remember hearing "kid"='child' used in the > singular until my son was of "kid" age--except in direct address > and in > fairly specific contexts. "Hey, kid!" was usually used by an > older (or at > least bigger) boy to challenge or menace a younger one. A little > later on > I remember a fad among girls to use it in direct address to each > other (but > never to boys) in a different context--e.g., "Oh, kid, you should > have seen > what I saw the other day..." > > But I don't recall a straight singular "kid," and when my parents > wouldtalk about their childhood my mother would say, "When I was a > child..." and > my dad would say, "When I was a boy..."--never, "When I was a > kid." Yet > both of them addressed my sister and me as "you kids" all the time. > > When my son came home from nursery school one day and explained > that "each > kid gets one cookie," it struck me as an innovation. > > Am I making this all up, or do others have similar recollections? > > Peter Mc. > > > --On Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:26 PM -0500 "Baker, John" > wrote: > > > The OED, which traces the usage back to at least 1690, > says that > > by the 19th century it was frequent in familiar speech. > > > > John Baker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kathy Schlieper [ktaylorschlieper at YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:41 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "kid" vs. "child" > > > > > > Does anyone know when the word "kid" started being > > used often...instead of "child"? > > > > In the 60's and 70's my father used to complain about > > me using it and always would say a kid was a "baby > > goat" and not a child! > > > > Kathy > > > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 00:39:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:39:36 EST Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" in 1756 Message-ID: Fred rejected this, from the Americn Memory database. But it's darn close and deserves mention. The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799George Washington to Adam Stephen, February 1, 1756 IMAGES The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources, 1745-1799. John C. Fitzpatrick, Editor. Alexandria February 1, 1756. Sir: If you find that a good road by Ross's Mill can be so easily cut, the sooner it is set about the better. As the Governor is still silent concerning what I represented about building a fort on Patterson's Creek, I would have you desist, at least for a while, and erect such buildings as are absolutely necessary at Fort Cumberland, and no more. You may depend upon it I shall take proper notice of the late proceedings you speak of, but for certain reasons am obliged to postpone it. Things not yet being rightly settled for punishing deserters according to their crimes, you must go on in the old way ofwhipping stoutly.4 [Note 4: Stephen had asked if he should continue the whipping punishment for desertion. The other matter was the case of a defiant officer who seemed to have been imitating Capt. John Dagworthy in questioning Washington's authority. Stephen did not mention names.] If casks are still wanted, there should be great care used to provide them in time. Looking upon our affairs at this critical juncture to be of such importance, and having a personal acquaintance with General Shirley, which I thought might add some weight to the strength of our memorial, I solicited leave, which is obtained, to visit him in person, and accordingly set out in two days for Boston, having procured letters, &c. from the Governor, which was the result of a Council for that purpose called. You may depend upon it, I shall leave no stone unturned for this salutary end; and, I think, if reason, justice, and every other equitable right can claim attention, we deserve to be heard. As I have taken the fatigue &c. of this tedious journey upon myself, (which I never thought of until I had left Winchester,) I hope you will conduct every thing in my absence for the interest and honor of the service. And I must exhort you in the most earnest manner to strict discipline and due exercise of arms. You may tell Mr. Livingston from me, that, if the soldiers are not skilled in arms equal to what may reasonably be expected, that he most assuredly shall answer it at my return. And I must ingenuously tell you, that I also expect to find them expert at bush-fighting. You are to order that a particular account be taken of the provisions that are delivered to the Maryland and Carolina companies by the commissary. The Governor seems determined to make the officers comply with the terms of getting their commissions, or forfeit them, and approves of Dekeyser's suspension,5 and orders, that he shall not be admitted into the camp. He seems uneasy at what I own gives me much concern,i.e., that gaming seems to be introduced into the camp. I am ordered to discourage it, and must desire that you will intimate the same. [Note 5: Lehaynsius Dekeyser was tried by court-martial on a charge of conduct "unbecoming a gentleman and an officer," in cheating at cards, and found guilty. (See Orders, January 8,ante.)] I have sent Commissions for McCarty and Doctor Roy; which deliver, and have them declared in Orders. From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Nov 23 01:03:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:03:51 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 07:19:00PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my >wife, but O!, you kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. I >can't document it right now, though. It's in HDAS. Jesse Sheidlower From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 01:22:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:22:04 EST Subject: Cheat-and-Retreat (1992); Dirty White Collar Message-ID: DIRTY WHITE COLLAR "Dirty white collar" is the Wordspy "word of the day." Mention is made of "blue collar (1950)," but I posted a 1945 "blue collar" right here. This is before everyone's time I know, but no mention is made of the 1979 Foreigner hit, "Dirty White Boy." Foreigner was an influential band at the time, and the song brought "dirty white" to everyone's lips. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHEAT AND RETREAT Not in OED. Did Barnhart record this? Did anyone record it? I'm seeing "cheat-and-retreat" a lot lately. The first hit on Google Groups is 11 March 1992. The following hit also talks about Iraq: Groups search result 205 for "cheat and retreat" From: CMSgt Mike Bergman (bergman at afnews.pa.af.mil) Subject: Making Mideast Safe from Iraq This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format Newsgroups: sci.military Date: 1992-08-20 08:43:58 PST >From CMSgt Mike Bergman Press Pack #37 for the Week of September 14, 1992Making Middle East Safe From IraqBy Jim GaramoneAmerican Forces Information ServiceIn the aftermath of the Persian Gulf war, the United Nationsdetermined Iraq should never again be able to threaten the MiddleEast with weapons of mass destruction.U.S. Army Maj. Karen M. Jansen has been on the front line inverifying that Iraq complies. Until recently, she was a chemicaland biological weapons inspection operations officer for the U.N.Special Commission on Iraq.Jansen, a chemical officer assigned to the Army's ChemicalResearch, Development and Engineering Center at Aberdeen ProvingGround, Md., made six trips to Iraq during the 13 months she was onloan to the commission. She describes Iraq as a place where theleaders develop a "fantasy" perspective of reality to manipulatetheir citizens into supporting the Baath party goals."Iraq is the most closed society any American is likely tosee," Jansen said. "The leaders use their carefully controlledmedia to turn the people on and off. For example, they hold largecelebrations in honor of their `victory' during the Iran-Iraq war."Jansen said the Iraqi people also believe they won the PersianGulf war. The leadership feels that surviving an encounter withthe most powerful force in the world is proof of victory, she said."From the beginning, the state-controlled propaganda has beenso calculated and repetitive that the man in the street refers tothat war as `the war with the United States,' which is part of thereason Iraq is trying to assert that weapons inspectors from theUnited States are not impartial," she said.Predictably, they have claimed a victory over the July 1992incident at the Ministry of Agriculture, as the U.N. team thateventually went into the complex had no American inspector, saidJansen. The truth is, they bowed to U.N. pressure just days afterthey vowed no U.N. weapons inspector would ever set foot inside theministry, not even if every Iraqi citizen perished because of theaction."Cheat-and-retreat" is the phrase many have used to describeIraqi behavior in the course of weapons inspections, she said. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 10:52:49 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:52:49 EST Subject: Philadelphia Racketeer Slang (1928) ("Gorillas from th' Big Apple") Message-ID: From the clippings files in Temple University. I apologize in advance for typing mistakes. The PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 5 October 1928, pg. 40: _Racketeers' Here Invent Rapid-Fire Lingo_ _To Carry On Business in Bootleg Industry_ _"Bootician's" Trial and Grand_ _Jury's "Up=and=Down" Reveal_ _Jargon That WOuld Astonish_ _a College Professor_ _"Czars" and "Barons" Rule Un-_ _derworld Empire of "Wildcats,"_ _"Bulls,: "Gorillas," "Mules," and_ _"Blind Pigs"_ "HELLOW! 'Zat you, Reds?" "Yeh." "This is Goo-Goo speaking. How's that mule you're cleaning?" "Block-an' fall." "Hm-mm. Well, have th' cooker, give it th' frown anyway. We gotta shoot tonight." "Yeh, if th' dicks don't knock us off." "Whaddaya mean! Are yuh getting th' snakes? Th' bulls are taking it, ain't they?" "Yeh, but most of 'em are nuts, since this up-and-down." "I know! I know! I'm sending yuh a couple of trailers, with tin shirts--gorillas from th' Big Apple. We shoot tonight--or somebody gets taken for a ride!" "I getcha. Goo!" What sort of gibberish is this? It is merely the new language of the "Racket"--the jargon, which has grown up with the bootlegging industry. Translation of the above imaginary telephone conversation, between a bootleg "czar" and one of his "barons," into polite English, would go something like this: "Hello! Is that you Reds?" "Yes." "This is Goo-Goo speaking. How is the illicit white liquor that you are manufacturing from specially denatured alcohol?" "It is very unsatisfactory--in fact, dangerous to drink." "Hm-mm. Well, instruct the operator of the still to add the coloring material, notwithstanding. We must start shipping this liquor tonight." "What do you mean? Are you becoming afflicted with delirium tremens? The police are accepting bribes to remain silent and to warn you of impending raids, are they not?" "Yea, but most of them are officials who will not accept bribes, since this Grand Jury investigation." "I am fully aware of that fact! I am sending you two armed guards for your liquor truck, with bullet-proof vests--rough and redoutable men from New York. We start shipping liquor tonight--or someone will be abducted in a motor car and murdered, and his body will be thrown into some lonely locality." :"I comprehend your instructions, too!" Built on the more or less familiar ring of the underworld, this bootleggers' (Col. 2--ed.) jargon has given birth to so many new terms in the last few years that even an experienced detective, sitting within earshot of two "racketeers," would be puzzled by at least some of their conversation. It's an interesting "language," this "racket" lingo' so interesting, in fact, that prohibition agents under Lieutenant Colonel Samuel O. Wynne, U. S. Prohibition Administrator for the Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania area,have started compiling a word-list of terms used by "racketeers." "They're amusing--some of the terms," said Colonel Wynne. "And it is profitable for men who come in contact with bootleggers to know their language. Needless to say, however, our reports are still made in English." The first of the many "racket" terms was made "officially" public when David D. Friedman, a special prohibition investigator, testified in court that Joel D. Kerper, the so-called "bootician" (bootlegger to elite society), kept his "varnish," "furniture polish," etc., in a "drop." It was explained in court just what a "drop" is--a place where any kind of contraband liquor is stored for distribution. "A 'drop' may be anything from a warehouse, supplying a number of 'joints,' to a garbage can in an alley, where a small-time 'speakeasy' keeps its stock of drinks," said Alexander P. MacPhee, Assistant Prohibition Administrator. "Then I have known of 'walking drops.' One man we 'knocked off' had twenty-six half pints of 'white mule' concealed in special pockets in his clothing. "Do you know what a 'dump' is? Of course, it means a 'joint' or 'dive' or 'blind pig'--that is, a 'speakeasy.' But it also has a new special meaning. A 'dump' is a contrivance whereby (Col. 3--ed.) the bartender can get rid of the evidence in a hurry when he is 'jumped'--that is, raided. "In a 'speakeasy' that sells only 'shots' or drinks--no bottled goods--the 'dump' is simply a big funnel behind the bar, with a hose leading to an ash-pile or something in the basement. The liquor is in a pitcher right beside the funnel, and when the raid breaks, the bartender 'dumps' the liquor into the funnel. "In places that sell half-pints and pint bottles, the 'hooch' is kept in a specially built five-gallon copper tank, with a big hole in the bottom leading to the ash-pile. There's a big stopper in the bottom, like a bath-tub plug, only bigger, hitched to a rope that the bartender keeps in one hand. When the 'joint' is 'jumped' he yanks the rope, and the 'dump' does the rest. You've got to be as quick as lightning and keep him from pulling that rope, or your evidence is gone." Here are a few more terms and definitions from the "Racket" vocabulary: "Alky," alcohol; "alley," a place where beer is made illegally. "Baloney," nonsense; "bang," a hypodermic narcotic dose; "baron," a leader of a group of bootleggers; "the Big Apple," New York CIty; "the big boys," men in power; "big house," a penitentiary; "block-and-fall," very strong and doubtful liquor; "blow out," to throw out of court; "boat," a beer-laden freight car; "boiler," a still; "brannigan," a spree; "broad," a woman; "bump off," to kill, to raid; "burn," to electrocute. "Can," a still, a jail, to discard; "cannon," a pickpocket; "captain," a susceptible person; "chef," one who regulates a still; "clink," a jail; "cover-up house," a place used by permitees to divert alcohol to bootleg channels; "crash," to gain entrance to; "crowd," an organization; "czar," the supreme ruler of a "racketeer," metropolis; "cut," to dilute, diluted, a share; "cutting plant," a place where moonshine liquor or redistilled alcohol is deiluted with water and colored with burnt sugar. "D. O. D.," a very potent liquor (death on delivery); "darb," something magnificent; "drag," a share, influence; "drill," to shoot. "Fade," to disappear; "five yards," $500; "fix," to arrange, to bribe, to (Col. 4--ed.) kill; "fixer," one who arranges a bribe or other matter; "frisk," to search. "Gab," a conversation, to converse; "gaff joint," a dishonest gambling establishment; "gat," a pistol; "get," to kill, to capture, to defeat, to understand; "giggle coup," liquor; "gink," a traitor; "give the works," to kill; "graft," illegal profits, a scheme; "grand," $1,000; "gun," a crook, a hypodermic narcotic outfit. "Hardware," a pistol, weapons; "harness bull," a policeman in uniform; "hijack," to steal a liquor shipment; "hijacker," a bootlegger-pirate; "hoist," to commit highway robbery. "Jam," to compromise, a predicament; "joint," a low establishment, a home; "jolt," a drink of whisky' "jump," to raid, to arrest. "King," a leader of a group of "barons;" "knock off," to kill, to raid, to put out of business. "Lamp," an eye, to look at; "licker up," to drink plentifully; "load," a quantity; "loaded," intoxicated, prepared; "lush," a drunkard; "lushken," a saloon. "The main drag," the main street or highway; "massage," to drub severely; "mitt broad," a female fortune teller; "mob," an organized gang of crooks; "money-man," a financial backer; "mouthpiece," an attorney; "mule," moonshine whisky with a "kick." "Needle," to irritate, as a person, or to strengthen, as a liwuor; "needled beer," beer containing more than one-half of one per cent alcohol; "nip," a small "jolt" of whisky; "noodle-soup," nonsense. "oil," whisky, to bribe; "oiled," intoxicated; "once-over," a cursory inspection; "outfit," a gang or organization. "Palooka," a simpleton, a tyro; "papa," a "gold-digger's" patron. a husband; "pay-off," payment of a bribe; "pill," a bullet; "plant," a subterfuge, a place where peddlers keep supplies; "poker-faced," inscrutable; "pre-war," liquor made or alleged to be made before the World War; "promote," to steal; "protection," official assistance in return for a bribe; "pusher," a "small-time guy" who sells for a large dealer; "Put in the middle," to compromise. "Queer," counterfeit; "the queer," counterfeit money. "Racket," a revel, a quarrel, a protest, a noise, a scheme, a profession or business, the bootleg industry and all its branches; "rake-off," an illicit share of profits; "razz," to criticize vociferously; "reaf stuff," liquor of pre-war waulity; "red eye," colored "mule" liquor; "ride," to punish, to reprimand, a death trip by motor car; "rod," a pistol; "rot-gut," vile shisky; "rum row," a group of liquor-laden vessels at sea beyond jurisdiction; "runner," a "hustler," an operator fo a liquor truck. "Salty," severe; "sand-bag," to deceive. to knock out; "sell," to convince, to deceive; "sell-out," to betray, (Col. 5--ed.) a betrayal; "set-up," and "easy mark," a pre-arranged outcome; "shake-down," to extort moeny from, extortion; "shanty," a bruised eye; "shot," a drink of whisky, a photograph, a chance, a hypodermic narcotic dose, intoxicated, exhausted; "shot beer," same as "needled" beer; "sleogh ride," to deceive, a trick; "smacl," a blow, a dollar, a kiss; "smile," a drink of whisky; "smoke," tenderloin whisky, ten cents a "shot;" "snifter," a small drink of whisky; "snort," a large drink of whisky; "snootful," a large wuantity of drafts of intoxicating liquor; "street," tp eject. "Take," to defraud; "take for a ride," to abduct and murder in a motor car, "take it," to accept bribes; "third-rail," whisky of high "voltage;" "tin," money, a detective's badge; "tincan," to deceive, to "lay down," a dilapidated motor car; "tumble," to be hoazed. to understand, an understanding, a chance; "turnip," a watch; "two-time," to deceive. "Up-and-up," honest; "up-and-down," an investigation. "Varnish," op-called "rye" whisky; "velvet," clear profit. "Weenie," a sausage of the "hot-dog" type, a chorus girl; "wild-cat," a place where beer is made illegally; "white mule," clear "mule" quality whisky; "wood," a beer keg. "Yen," to have a desire; money; a dollar; a desire. The "Racket" language is so amusing that high officials are taking a hand in supplying words for the vocabulary. William F. Knauer, Deputy Attorney Gerneral of Pennsylvania, in charge of liquor law enforcement, contributed the term "blow out." Judge John Monaghan, District Attorney of Philadelphia, who is investigating the doings of the "Racketeer," invented a slang term himself, "trucketeer," which means a bootlegger's truck driver/ Any one can learn enough of the vocabulary to amek himself understood. But to speak the language is more difficult. It is spoken from the corner of one's "mug," with appropriate movement of the eyebrows and hands, palms down. And after one has mastered the "racket" lingo, he has just begun, for the underworld abounds in special dialects and jargons, each in its own field. Pickpockets, "con" men. dope peddlers, and other "professionals" all have jargons of their own. From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sat Nov 23 11:53:20 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:53:20 +0100 Subject: Negroni pre-1950 Message-ID: Using Google I found this on the origin of the cocktail: http://www.coopfirenze.it/info/art_901.htm It refers to the book by another barman, Luca Picchi, Sulle tracce del conte. La vera storia del cocktail Negroni, ed. Plan, 11,4 euro, 77 pp. "Picchi ci racconta del Caff? Casoni, dove, in un giorno imprecisato fra il 1919 e il 1920 il conte Cammillo Negroni e il giovane barman Fosco Scarselli diedero vita al 'solito' (un Americano rinforzato con il gin) poi ribattezzato semplicemente Negroni." Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From mkuha at BSU.EDU Sat Nov 23 13:15:12 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:15:12 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/22/02 7:19 PM, George Thompson wrote: > There was a catchphrase from the early 20th C: "I love my wife, but O!, you > kid", to be addressed to a pretty girl. (...) I was at the grocery store yesterday and walked by two employees (both men) chatting while stocking shelves. "She's a good kid," one of the speakers said, then amended after a pause: "Well, I guess she's a *woman*." I suppose "she's a good woman" wouldn't have been a possible expression of approval! mk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 19:17:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: Pinto Beans (1913) Message-ID: PINTO BEANS THE COLLEGE COURIER State College of New Mexico College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts December 1913 Volume 2, No. 1 Pg. 4, col. 2: _FOOD VALUE OF PINTO BEANS,_ _A DRY FARM CROP._ _(By S. R. Mitchell, Assistant Chemist.)_ Recent inquiries at this station for the analysis of Pinto beans and others to show the comparative food values, have resulted in the analysis and tabulation of chemical analyses of a number of different varieties of beans. The average "frijoles" contain from 22 to 24 per cent of protein, on a water-free basis. This is the most important nutrient to be considered in beans, and was consequently the only food constituent determined in the five samples of frijoles recently received by the CHemical Department for comparative analysis. "Pinto" beans, as the commercial term is applied, apparently belong to the "frijoles" group, which comprises about 30 varieties. The same so-called "pinto" bean has gone also by the name of "Rosillo," and seems to fit the description given in Bulletin No. 68, Arizone Experiment Station, for the Garaypata or Mexican tick beans. Garaypata may produce in two shades, with two different markings on each. One shade is the darker or hydrangea pink, with some shade of brown flecks or bands. The other, lighter shade, is pale flesh color, with he flecks or bands of brown. The light Pinto bean of pale flesh color with brown flecks or bands seems to be the better conditioned of the two, and from chemical examination probably of greater food value. This same variety of Pinto bean, from a number of analyses, shows from 1 to 2 per cent less protein, on the water-free basis, than a single sample of California Pink beans, or an average of American White or Navy beans; though this is a comparatively small difference in such an amount of protein, and when compared under market conditions is scarcely appreciable. When we compare the beans as they occur on the market there is a difference of only 1 per cent in protein between the average American White or Navy and a single Pinto variety, on account of the difference in moisture; and this difference may vary with different samples. The following is taken from Arizona Station bulletin No. 68, and might easily be applicable to New Mexico conditions: "Ample supply of good soil and good water and other conditions favorable, beans and teparies should yield from 300 to 1,100 pounds per acre. (...)" (For DARE, OED, MERRIAM-WEBSTER, OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, David Barnhart, whomever. DARE published 1916. They owe me beans--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: SOMEBODY PLEASE, PLEASE KILL ME (continued) NYPL OFFSITE--As I expected, all of my "pinto bean" books were offsite. The CATNYP online catalog doesn't tell you this; suppose you don't live in NYC and just have only a year or so to get a book? _One_ book of mine (the above) arrived from offsite. Where were the others? Another conference of librarians. There was no book report. I HAVE TO SUBMIT MY REQUEST AGAIN. And of course, they don't work on Saturday, and Sunday is closed, and Monday is closed, and Thursday is Thanksgiving... FRED SHAPIRO IN WILLIAM SAFIRE'S "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN THIS SUNDAY--Shapiro's quote on "material" got about five times more ink than John J. Fitz Gerald on "the Big Apple." And for that I had to wait eight years... MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG HAS LUNCH WITH A BASEBALL FREE AGENT--Two days ago, NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg has lunch with Dan Glavine, trying to recruit him for the New York Mets. It pays to be a baseball or a movie star--you get keys to the city and all that kind of stuff. It was ten years ago that I tried to get Mayor David Dinkins to send a 25-cent letter to New Orleans (the mayor, the TIMES-PICAYUNE) to share my information and to ask about any person still alive who would know information about the name of our city, "the Big Apple." The mayor was too busy then and now... From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 23 19:47:16 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:47:16 -0500 Subject: "kid" vs. "child" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Mai Kuha wrote: #I was at the grocery store yesterday and walked by two employees (both men) #chatting while stocking shelves. "She's a good kid," one of the speakers #said, then amended after a pause: "Well, I guess she's a *woman*." I suppose #"she's a good woman" wouldn't have been a possible expression of approval! And the speaker presumably thought "kid" was condescending i/t/o age. -- Mark M. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Nov 23 21:10:38 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:10:38 -0600 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? Message-ID: Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Nov 23 23:54:21 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:54:21 EST Subject: German measles Message-ID: In a message dated 11/22/2002 9:24:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that > the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in > English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears > in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard > Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is > from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which > is well after the OED's first entry. This afternoon I saw Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" for the first time in 25 years. In Act IV, when Jack Worthing is replying to Lady Bracknell's questions on Cecily Cardew's pedigree, he says something like "measles, both the German and the English version" (sorry, quoting from memory). - Jim Landau (who once went by train from Victoria Station to Worthing via the Brighton Line) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Nov 24 00:06:57 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:06:57 -0500 Subject: German measles Message-ID: From Act III (the final act): "I have also in my possession, you will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; both the German and the English variety." The Importance of Being Earnest premiered in 1895. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:54 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: German measles In a message dated 11/22/2002 9:24:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG writes: > My impression, from a quick look at my literature database, is that > the term "German measles" didn't really become at all popular in > English until the early years of the twentieth century. It appears > in works by Edna Ferber (1911), J M Barrie (1911), George Bernard > Shaw (1913), and Willa Catha (1922). The earliest I have found is > from "Love Affairs Of A Bibliomaniac" by Eugene Field (1896), which > is well after the OED's first entry. This afternoon I saw Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" for the first time in 25 years. In Act IV, when Jack Worthing is replying to Lady Bracknell's questions on Cecily Cardew's pedigree, he says something like "measles, both the German and the English version" (sorry, quoting from memory). - Jim Landau (who once went by train from Victoria Station to Worthing via the Brighton Line) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 00:12:06 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:12:06 EST Subject: "Upset" & other nomenological phenomena Message-ID: In a message dated 11/20/2002 12:33:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > I had a college professor who had a related theory, that women choose their > husbands on the basis of what their married name would be Not just your professor. There is a 3-act stage play, "Luann Hamptom Laverty Oberlander" based on this theme. It is part of the "Texas Trilogy" by Preston Jones and opened on Broadway Sep 21, 1976. By the way, I once heard of a practical use for that title. At a party where charades were being performed, there was one man who boasted of his skill at charades. He looked at the slip telling him what his charade was to be, found it was "Luann Hamptom Laverty Oberlander", and didn't even try. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 01:08:29 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:08:29 EST Subject: German measles Message-ID: In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:06:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > From Act III (the final act): "I have also in my possession, you > will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, > whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; > both the German and the English variety." The Importance of Being Earnest > premiered in 1895. Thanks for the quote and the date---the only copies of "Earnest" in the coiuntry library system not currently checked out are 1) on the far side of the county or 2) in a branch that is not open on the weekends. You're probably right about Act III, but the performance I just saw split the play into 4 acts, why I don't know. - Jim Landau From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Nov 24 01:18:10 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:18:10 -0800 Subject: German measles Message-ID: Importance of Being Earnest, act III: Jack (very irritably):...I have also in my possession, you will be pleased to hear, certificates of Miss Cardew's birth, baptism, whooping cough, registration, vaccination, confirmation, and the measles; both the German and the English variety. (1895) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 02:12:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:12:32 EST Subject: High School slang "Don't Know From Nothing" (1933) Message-ID: HIGH SCHOOL SLANG (1933) There are a few food items here, and one antedate of the RHHDAS. From the Temple University clippings files, PHILADELPHIA DAILY BULLETIN, 1 February 1933, pg. 6: _"GET OFF MY EAR"_ _MAKES 'EM SCRAM_ (...) Just in case--here's a brief vocabulary of high school slang: All creped up--All dressed up. Get off my ear; get out of my hair--Stop annoying me. Well, pick me for a sweet pea--Expression of surprise or shock. They're blowing it--Teachers are trying to see who can give out the most homework. Didn't make the climb; slipped--Left down, not promoted. Shut your garage--Close your mouth. You don't know from nothing--You're not very bright. (RHHDAS has 1934--ed.) Yowza--Yes, sir. Yea man--Yes man. I beg your stuff--I beg your pardon. Hot farina!--1933 version of "hot dog!" Put me in the jigger for a bum--Expression of lament after saying something one shouldn't. She's on the hike--Girl is making eyes at a boy (or teacher is making eyes at a teacher). He's hitch-hiking it--A boy is "strutting hi stuff" for a girl's admiration (or a teacher for a teacher's). They're ripe--Teachers are ready to spring a test. Skeedaddle; skiddle-skaddle--1933 version of scram. On the best--Teacher patrolling hall for truants. Rub it on for me--Let me copy your homework. Palooka--1933 for "sap." Fire--Very strict teacher. Airplane sandwich--Too much bread, too little filler. (A "wish" sandwich in the BLUES BROTHERS movie--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: SOMEBODY PUT ME OUT OF THIS MISERY (continued) Here's the "BLOOM SERVICE" story, from the NEW YORK POST, 22 November 2002, pg. 134: _TOAST OF THE TOWN_ _Mets, Mayor woo Glavine_ (...) Mayor Bloomberg spent 30 minutes at lunch with the free agent explaining how the Big Apple enriches the lives of its residents... (The Big Apple enriches the lives of its residents??...This was during a free lunch at the Four Seasons restaurant. Glavine was being begged to accept $30 million for three years' work. If he does sign with the New York Mets, he'll probably live, like New York's David Letterman, in Connecticut--ed.) From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Nov 24 02:12:26 2002 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:12:26 -0600 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? Message-ID: >>From a physician's perspective, I would not expect it to be so, although if there were agricultural projects within the department, that wouldn't be surprising. I would expect things like biological devices and materials, maybe production schemes for such, computer applications (such as the chap doing the melanoma recognition research.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Cohen" Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 05:45:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:45:14 -0500 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: There is some interest in "gummi/gummy bears" for the 100th anniversary of the "teddy bear." "Gummy bear" goes back to just 3 July 1982 on the NEW YORK TIMES database. Below are some trademarks. I'll probably go back to the Library of Congress on Monday to check on "jelly bean" and other stuff. Has anyone looked at CONFECTIONARY TRADE MARKS (1910) by Mida's trade-mark bureau of Chicago? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GUMMI-BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CANDY. FIRST USE: 19830100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75469549 Filing Date April 17, 1998 Published for Opposition September 7, 1999 Registration Number 2295317 Registration Date November 30, 1999 Owner (REGISTRANT) HARIBO OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1825 Woodlawn Drive Baltimore MARYLAND 21207 Attorney of Record MARY FRANCES LOVE Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMI-BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL SWEDISH MILK CHOCOLATE COVERED GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONS AND CHOCOLATES. FIRST USE: 19820000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820000 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030116 030124 030126 Serial Number 76455308 Filing Date October 1, 2002 Owner (APPLICANT) Cloetta Fazer AB CORPORATION SWEDEN 590 69 Ljungsbro SWEDEN Attorney of Record Robert A. Rowan Section 44 Indicator SECT44 Priority Date July 4, 2002 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Word Mark GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: VARIOUS SOFT CANDIES OF DIFFERENT FLAVORS AND COLORS, INCLUDING GUMMY BEARS. FIRST USE: 19830823. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830823 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030124 210111 Serial Number 73485901 Filing Date June 18, 1984 Published for Opposition July 23, 1985 Registration Number 1386950 Registration Date March 18, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) FOREIGN CANDY COMPANY, INC., THE CORPORATION IOWA 451 BLACK FOREST ROAD HULL IOWA 51239 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record HARRY J. WATSON Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 05:54:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:54:44 -0500 Subject: Balloon Safari (1961 or 1963) Message-ID: I'll be going on a "balloon safari" (Not recorded in OED? The things I do for etymology!) in Africa this Christmas. I was told that the one I'm going on was the "first" balloon safari, and that it started in 1975. OCLC WorldCat appears to show that that "first" claim is filled with hot air: Flight of the lost balloon Marshall Thompson; Mala Powers; James Lampier 1961 English Visual Material : Motion picture : Film 3 film reels (91 min.) : sd., col.; 16 mm. [S.l.] : Woolner-Marquette-Juran Pictures, The vast and ancient treasure of Cleopatra is the object of a safari that flies by hydrogen-filled balloon to the headwaters of the Nile. But the path to fortune is strewn with obstacles like condors that attack the balloon, a power mad Hindu and his natives out to get the fortune for themselves and wild animals. Ownership: : 0 More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: Flight of the lost balloon Author(s): Thompson, Marshall,; 1925- ; Powers, Mala,; 1931- ; Lampier, James. Publication: [S.l.] :; Woolner-Marquette-Juran Pictures, Year: 1961 Description: 3 film reels (91 min.) :; sd., col.;; 16 mm. Language: English Abstract: The vast and ancient treasure of Cleopatra is the object of a safari that flies by hydrogen-filled balloon to the headwaters of the Nile. But the path to fortune is strewn with obstacles like condors that attack the balloon, a power mad Hindu and his natives out to get the fortune for themselves and wild animals. SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Hot air balloons. Treasure-trove. Note(s): Participants: Marshall Thompson, Mala Powers, James Lamphier. Class Descriptors: Dewey: 813.5 Responsibility: Producer, Bernard Woolner; director, story and screenplay, Nathan Juran; executive director, Jacques Marquette. Material Type: Projected image (pgr); Film (mot) Document Type: Visual Material Entry: 19830829 Update: 20020705 Accession No: OCLC: 9859235 Database: WorldCat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jambo, African balloon safari / Anthony Smith 1963 English Book 272 p. : ill. (part col.) map. ; 22 cm. New York : Dutton, Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries that Own Item: 245 More Like This: Search for versions with same title and author | Advanced options ... Title: Jambo, African balloon safari / Author(s): Smith, Anthony, 1926- Publication: New York : Dutton, Year: 1963 Description: 272 p. : ill. (part col.) map. ; 22 cm. Language: English Standard No: LCCN: 63-9852 SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Balloon ascensions. Geographic: Africa -- Description and travel -- Aerial. Note(s): "Published in England under the title of Throw out two hands." Class Descriptors: LC: TL620.S58; Dewey: 916.76 Responsibility: Anthony Smith. Document Type: Book Entry: 19830818 Update: 19940517 Accession No: OCLC: 9822776 Database: WorldCat From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Nov 24 05:51:34 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:51:34 -0800 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) In-Reply-To: <3174537F.1A6710FD.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: gummi bears have been available for only 20 years? that's surprising. were 'gummi bears' really the first instance of 'gummi'? perhaps the firm sold other gummi products before making the bears available? I think of the current proliferation of all things gummi - worms, berries and other forms. did anything pre-date the bears? sincerely, Vida. vidamorkunas at telus.net -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: November 23, 2002 9:45 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) There is some interest in "gummi/gummy bears" for the 100th anniversary of the "teddy bear." "Gummy bear" goes back to just 3 July 1982 on the NEW YORK TIMES database. Below are some trademarks. I'll probably go back to the Library of Congress on Monday to check on "jelly bean" and other stuff. Has anyone looked at CONFECTIONARY TRADE MARKS (1910) by Mida's trade-mark bureau of Chicago? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL GUMMI-BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CANDY. FIRST USE: 19830100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830100 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75469549 Filing Date April 17, 1998 Published for Opposition September 7, 1999 Registration Number 2295317 Registration Date November 30, 1999 Owner (REGISTRANT) HARIBO OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1825 Woodlawn Drive Baltimore MARYLAND 21207 Attorney of Record MARY FRANCES LOVE Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMI-BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark THE ORIGINAL SWEDISH MILK CHOCOLATE COVERED GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: CONFECTIONS AND CHOCOLATES. FIRST USE: 19820000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19820000 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030116 030124 030126 Serial Number 76455308 Filing Date October 1, 2002 Owner (APPLICANT) Cloetta Fazer AB CORPORATION SWEDEN 590 69 Ljungsbro SWEDEN Attorney of Record Robert A. Rowan Section 44 Indicator SECT44 Priority Date July 4, 2002 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. The design consists of a bear (head only) wearing a blue bandana with yellow dots on a bright yellow background. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Word Mark GUMMY BEARS Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: VARIOUS SOFT CANDIES OF DIFFERENT FLAVORS AND COLORS, INCLUDING GUMMY BEARS. FIRST USE: 19830823. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830823 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 030114 030124 210111 Serial Number 73485901 Filing Date June 18, 1984 Published for Opposition July 23, 1985 Registration Number 1386950 Registration Date March 18, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) FOREIGN CANDY COMPANY, INC., THE CORPORATION IOWA 451 BLACK FOREST ROAD HULL IOWA 51239 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record HARRY J. WATSON Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "GUMMY BEARS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 06:15:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:15:11 -0500 Subject: Gummy the Turtle (1981) Message-ID: More "gummy" research. Here's a trademarked "gummy turtle" (1981): Word Mark GUMMY THE TURTLE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Frozen Confections. FIRST USE: 19811230. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19811230 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73346537 Filing Date January 21, 1982 Published for Opposition August 30, 1983 Owner (APPLICANT) Southland Corporation, The CORPORATION TEXAS 2828 N. Haskell Dallas TEXAS 75221 Attorney of Record Joseph B. Bowman Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 30, 1984 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 06:43:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:43:00 -0500 Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) Message-ID: I'm doing my best on American candy research, by gum! Word Mark YUMMI-GUMMI GOONIE'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Candy. FIRST USE: 19810600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73447247 Filing Date October 7, 1983 Published for Opposition March 12, 1985 Registration Number 1337003 Registration Date May 21, 1985 Owner (REGISTRANT) Brock Candy Company CORPORATION TENNESSEE 1113 Chestnut St. Chattanooga TENNESSEE 37402 Attorney of Record B. Parker Livingston Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1991 From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sun Nov 24 06:57:16 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:57:16 -0800 Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) In-Reply-To: <4B283360.288D89CA.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: one wonders that a Goonie looked like, or tasted like. what is the origin of the word? nothing appetizing now, or even then - given the current status of the word mark and live/dead indicator -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: November 23, 2002 10:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Yummi-Gummi Goonie's (1981) I'm doing my best on American candy research, by gum! Word Mark YUMMI-GUMMI GOONIE'S Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Candy. FIRST USE: 19810600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73447247 Filing Date October 7, 1983 Published for Opposition March 12, 1985 Registration Number 1337003 Registration Date May 21, 1985 Owner (REGISTRANT) Brock Candy Company CORPORATION TENNESSEE 1113 Chestnut St. Chattanooga TENNESSEE 37402 Attorney of Record B. Parker Livingston Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date November 13, 1991 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 07:52:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:52:50 -0500 Subject: Hasenpfeffer mit Spatzle; Lebkuchen (1889) Message-ID: One more food antedate before I call it a night. OED has 1892 for "hasenpfeffer" and 1933 for "spatzle." This Landau person has posted here on the latter, before he got the "German measles." There is a lot of food in this item, so it's long. "Lebkuchen" is at the beginning, and two "hasenpfeffer" hits at the end. From the HARPER'S WEEKLY online database: Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912 This marks the beginning of page 314 from the 04-20-1889 issue of Harper's Weekly. This marks the beginning of Column 1 (...) Being thus encouraged, Gottlieb bought the honey forthwith; and with Aunt Hedwig's zealous assistance set about boiling it and straining it and kneading it into a sticky dough, all in accord- ance with the wise old baker's directions that he so long had trea- sured in his mind. And when the dough was packed in earthen pots, over which bladders were tied, all the pots were set away in the coolest part of the cellar, as far from the great oven as pos- sible, that the precious honey-cake might undergo that subtle change which only comes with time. For at least a year must pass before the honey-cake really can be said to be good at all; and the longer that it remains in the pots, even until five-and-twenty years, the better does it become. Therefore it is that all makers of lebkuchen who aspire to become famous professors of the craft add each year to their stock of honey-cake, yet draw always from the oldest pots a time-soaked dough that ever grows more precious in its sweet excellence of age. Thus large sums -- more hundreds of dollars than a young baker, just starting upon his farinacious career, would dare to dream of -- may be invested; and the old rich bakers who can dower their daughters with many honey-pots know that in the matter of sons-in-law they have but to pick and choose. It was about Christmas-time -- which is the proper time for this office -- that Gottlieb made his first honey-cake; and it was a little before the Christmas following that his first lebkuchen was baked. For a whole week before this portentous event occurred he was in a nervous tremor; by day he scarcely slept; as he sat beside the oven at night his pipe so frequently went out that twice, hav- ing thus lost track of time, his baking of bread came near to be- ing toast. And when at last the fateful night arrived that saw his first batch of lebkuchen in the oven, he actually forgot to smoke at all! Gottlieb had but a sorry Christmas that year. The best that even Aunt Hedwig could say of his lebkuchen was that it was not bad. Herr Sohnstein, to be sure, brazenly declared that it was delicious; but Gottlieb remembered that Herr Sohnstein, who con- ducted a flourishing practice in the criminal courts, was trained in the art of romantic deviations from the truth whenever it was necessary to put a good face on a bad cause; and he observed sadly that the notary's teeth were at variance with his tongue, for the piece of lebkuchen that Herr Sohnstein ate was infinitessi- mally small. As for the regular German customers of the bakery, they simply bit one single bite and then refused to buy. Indeed, but for the children from St. Bridget's School -- who, being for the most part boys, and Irish boys at that, presumably could eat any- thing -- it is not impossible that that first baking of lebkuchen might have remained uneaten even until this present day. And it was due mainly to the stout stomachs of successive generations of these enterprising boys that the series of experiments that Gott- lieb then began in the making of lebkuchen was brought, in the course of years, to something like a satisfactory conclusion. But even at its best, never was this lebkuchen at all like that of which in his hopeful youth he had dreamed. Herr Sohnstein, to be sure, spoke highly of it, and even man- aged to eat of it quite considerable quantities. Gottlieb did not imagine that Herr Sohnstein could have in this matter any ulterior motives; but Aunt Hedwig much more than half suspected that in order to please her by pleasing her brother he was making a sacrifice of his stomach to his heart. If this theory had any foun- dation in fact, it is certain that Herr Sohnstein did not apprecia- bly profit by his gallant risk of indigestion; for while Aunt Hed- wig by no means seemed disposed to shatter all his hopes by a sharp refusal, she gave no indication whatever of any intention to permit her ripe red lips to utter the longed-for word of assent. Aunt Hedwig, unquestionably, was needlessly cruel in her treat- ment of Herr Sohnstein, and he frequently told her so. Some- times he would ask her, with a fine irony, if she meant to keep him waiting for his answer until her brother had made lebkuchen as good as the lebkuchen of N?rnberg? To which invariably she would reply that, in the first place, she did not know of any question that he ever had asked her that required an answer; and, in the second place, that she did mean to keep him waiting just precisely that long. And then she would add, with a delicate drollery that was all her own, that whenever he got tired of wait- ing he might hire a whole horse-car all to himself and ride right away. Ah, this Aunt Hedwig had a funny way with her! And so the years slipped by; and little Minna, who laughed at the passing years as merrily as Aunt Hedwig laughed at Herr Sohnstein, grew up into a blithe, trig, round maiden, and ceased to be little Minna at all. She was her mother over again, Gottlieb said; but this was not by any means true. She did have her mo- ther's goodness and sweetness, but her sturdy body bespoke her father's stronger strain. Aunt Hedwig, of this same strain, undis- guisedly was stocky. Minna was only comfortably stout, with good broad shoulders, and an honest round waist that anybody with half an eye for waists could see would be a satisfactory arm- ful. And she had also Aunt Hedwig's constant cheeriness. All day long her laugh sounded happily through the house, or her voice went blithely in happy talk, or, failing anybody to talk to, trilled out some scrap of a sweet old German song. The two apprentices and the young man who drove the bread-wagon of course were wildly and desperately in love with her -- a tender passion that they dared not disclose to its object, but that they frequently and boastingly aired to each other. Naturally these interchanges of confidence were apt to be somewhat tempestuous. As the result of one of them, when the elder apprentice had declared that Min- na's beautiful brown hair was finer than any wig in the window of the hair-dresser on the west side of the square, and that she had given him a lock of it, and when the young man who drove the bread-wagon (he was a profane young man) had declared that it was a verdammter sight finer than any wig, and that she hadn't -- the elder apprentice got a dreadful black eye, and the younger ap- This marks the beginning of Column 2 prentice was almost smothered in the dough-trough, and the young man who drove the bread-wagon had his head broken with the peel that was broken over it. Aunt Hedwig did not need to be told, nor did Minna, the little jade, the cause of this direful com- bat; and both of these amiable women thought Gottlieb very hard- hearted because he charged the broken peel -- it was a new one -- and the considerable amount of dough that was wasted by stick- ing to the younger apprentice's person, against the wages of the three combatants. This reference to the apprentices and to the wagon shows that Gottlieb's bakery no longer was a small bakery, but a large one. In the making of lebkuchen, it is true, he had not prospered; but in all other ways he had prospered amazingly. From Avenue A over to the East River, and from far below Tompkins Square clear away to the upper regions of Lexington Avenue, the young man who drove the bread-wagon rattled along every morning as hard as ever he could go, and he vowed and declared, this young man did, that nothing but his love for Minna kept him in a place where all the year round he was compelled in every single day to do the work of two. Meanwhile the little shop on East Fourth Street had been abandoned for a bigger shop, and this, in turn, for one still bigger -- quite a palace of a shop, with plate-glass windows -- on Avenue B. It was here, beginning in a modest way with a couple of tables whereat chance hungry people might sit while they ate zwieback or a thick slice of hearty pumpernickel and drank a glass of milk, that a restaurant was established as a tender to the bakery. It did not set out to be a large restaurant, and in fact never became one. In the back part of the shop were a dozen tables, covered with oil-cloth and decorated with red napkins, and at these tables, under the especial direction of Aunt Hedwig, who was a culinary genius, was served a limited, but from a German stand-point most toothsome, bill of fare. There was Hasenpfeffer mit Sp?tzle, and Sauerbraten mit Kartoffelkl?sse, and Rindfleisch mit Meerrettig, and Bratwurst mit Rothkraut; and Aunt Hedwig made delicious coffee, and the bakery of course provided all man- ner of sweet cakes. In the summer-time they did a famous busi- ness in ice-cream. On the plate-glass windows, beneath the sweeping curve of white letters in which the name of the owner of the bakery was set forth was added in smaller letters the words "Caf? N?rnberger." Gott- lieb and Aunt Hedwig and the man who made the sign (this last, however, for the venal reason that more letters would be required) had stood out stoutly for the honest German "Kaffehaus"; but Minna, whose tastes were refined, had insisted upon the use of the French word: there was more style about it, she said. And this was a case in which style was wedded to substantial excellence. What with the good things which Gottlieb baked and the good things which Aunt Hedwig cooked, the Caf? N?rnberger presently acquired a somewhat enviable reputation. It became even a re- sort of the aristocracy, in this case represented by the dwellers in the handsome houses on the eastern and northern sides of Tomp- kins Square. Of winter evenings, when bright gas-light and a big glowing stove made the restaurant a very cozy place indeed, large parties of these aristocrats would drop in on their way home from the Thalia Theatre, and would stuff themselves with Hasenpfeffer and Sauerbraten and Kartoffelkl?sse, and swig Aunt Hedwig's strong coffee (out of cups big enough and thick enough to have served as shells and been fired from a mortar), until it would seem as though they must certainly crack their aristocratic skins. (...) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Nov 24 15:24:37 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:24:37 -0500 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date Barry cites. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sun Nov 24 16:48:20 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:48:20 +0100 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: The gummi bear is much older. I personally saw them in Sweden as a child around 1940. See http://www.oberberg-online.de/~carsten.kuehn/baerinfo.htm "Wer hat das Gummib?rchen erfunden? Ein junger Ingenieur hatte 1922 die s??e Idee, Minib?rchen zum Naschen herzustellen. Er schmiedete eine Form und f?llte sie mit Fruchtgummimasse. Sein Name ist Hans Riegel aus Bonn. Das Goldb?rchen ist mittlerweile schon 75 Jahre alt. Damals war es noch ein bi?chen gr??er und dicker als heute." On http://nosferatu.cas.usf.edu/german/essen/#Gummibear you can find out how many gummi bears survived the Titanic sinking. The Gummib?r seems to be very popular in Germany - Google gives 2300 hits. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) > I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then > 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she > started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German > ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date > Barry cites. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Sun Nov 24 17:00:50 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:00:50 +0100 Subject: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) Message-ID: HAns RIegel in BOnn set up a company, HARIBO, and his son is now one of Germany's richest men. "In 1982 HARIBO made the leap across the ocean to set up its own sales organization in the US. HARIBO had previously been importing various products through US distributors but in 1982 the time was ripe for a separate HARIBO organization" says Haribo USA's home page http://www.haribo.de/usa/index.html "HARIBO of America, Inc. initially imported mainly licorice items along with several international favorites like the Gold-Bears into the US market." So the name ought to have been known in the US, not only through returning GIs. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Gummi/Gummy Bears (1982/1983) > I'm sure that in my Fulbright year in Goettingen (FGR) in 1975/6 my then > 8-yr old ate and enjoyed gummi bears and when, a few years later, she > started seeing them in the US, complained that the flavors of the German > ones were superior. So I would search for a decade before the 1984 date > Barry cites. > _________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Nov 24 17:07:00 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:07:00 -0800 Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to agriculture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My experience with the field is somewhat oblique, coming at it from a biological weapons/arms control perspective, but I would not immediately associate "Biological Engineering" with agriculture (nor would I differentiate between that and "bio-engineering"). Although, with a moment's thought it becomes obvious that agriculture would be a major consumer of biological engineering research. A quick Google search turns up any number of "Agriculture & Biological Engineering" departments and programs at universities. And looking at some others that don't include "agriculture" in the title (like MIT), the focus is broader, encompassing medical and other applications. So it doesn't appear as if the term "Biological Engineering" on its own implies an agricultural focus. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gerald Cohen > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:11 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Query: Does "Biological Engineering" refer primarily to > agriculture? > > > Would anyone know if "Biological Engineering" (vs. > "Bio-Engineering") in the title of a university department implies an > agricultural program? Is the term perhaps ambiguous? If a Chemical > Engineering Department wishes to add a possibly wide-ranging program > in bio-engineering (certainly not limited to agriculture), would > "Biological Engineering" be an inappropriate name? > > I wasn't even aware of any possible controversy on this score; > but I'm now on a university committee which has to rule on the > subject, and I'd be grateful for any clarification. > > Gerald Cohen > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 18:36:13 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:36:13 EST Subject: "Oke" "Smoothie" "Lays an Egg" (1929) Message-ID: This is another article that I copied from the Temple University Urban Archives clippings files on slang. There are mostly second citations here, such as for "hop a gut" and "sticking one's neck out," but those are still important. "Oke" is certainly of interest. "Lay an egg" is in line with our famous "Wall Street Lays an Egg" headline of later this year (1929). The RHHDAS has 1934 for "cream." Add "smoothie" to my other citations...Notice "toughie" rather than "jock"...The University of Pennsylvania's PUNCH BOWL is useful for slang, and it possibly will have an early "hoagie" as well, at least in advertisements. I'll go back to Philly if anyone wants...I apologize in advance for typing mistakes. From the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, 16 June 1929: _U. OF P. MEN "CHISEL"_ _GIRLS FROM ESCORT_ _Students "Hop a Gut" When_ _They Pick Easy Courses,_ _College Slang Reveals_ _"Toughies Cream" Foes,_ _While Others Hide Lady_ _Friends From "Smoothies"_ The "toughie" is the halfback who carries the ball over the goal line with a minute to play, the man to lean on when the riot call is turned in. The "softie" does not care for the rough game of football, lets his studies occupy much of his time at college and does not drink, smoke or swear. These two characters belong to the latest collection of collegiate slang, as compiled by an anonymous writer in The Punch Bowl, monthly magazine at the University of Pennsylvania. In the same category is the "smoothie," a college man who has something which is difficult to describe. Whatever it is, he has it; and, the article goes on to say, "when one is entertaining a young lady it is always well to avoid a 'smoothie,' lest he try to 'smooth' 'em up :Occasionally there comes a rare genius who beneath the polished exterior may boast an arm of iron. Then we have the rare "toughie-smoothie" combination, not unlike a stick of dynamite in a platinum case." An essential part of the "toughie's" vocabulary is the verb "to cream." This verb has synonyms which make its meaning plain: To "knock cold," to "cool," to "beat up on" and to "take." It may be used in connection with anything which the speaker dislikes and is often applied to certain examinations. A thing or a person which has been "creamed" has been successfully treated in a violent manner. "To 'wolf' or to 'chisel' is to poach on what one should consider sacred to one's neighbor," says the writer. "Usually it refers to the depradations committed by a stag at a prom at the expense of a man who is entertaining a young lady. To set with the prupose of doing some 'high-class wolfing' is a plan with malice aforethought to lure some alluring female from the protection of her official escort." The roommate, in the newest slang, is still "the wife," while a "babe" is any beautiful dumb young lady introduced to the campus. The word "wet" still embraces anything that does not meet with approval. Applied to an undergraduate, it is a fighting word, unless accompanied by a smile. To "be laid an egg" is the sad fate of one who has been completely crushed, outwitted, defeated. To threaten "to get on the ball" indicates a determination to undertake a persistent effort along any line. Speaking scholastically, it is considered better to say "pound the books" or "study 'em up." To "stick out one's neck" is to commit an unpardonable error, to lay one's self open to criticism, usually that of being "wet," according to this vocabulary. A persistent offender should "wise up." As in non-collegiate circles, the ponderous O. K. has given way to the snappier "oke." There is a sonorous note about this expression, the compiler says, which has made its vogue immense. Among the elite slangsters, in fact, it has almost completely ousted older expressions. "Hopping a gut" is the quaint expression used when a student elects an easy course. When the course proves otherwise than easy, it is said to have "back-fired." A "racket" means any plan, subject or project. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:05:44 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:05:44 EST Subject: Aufschnit Message-ID: Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? It's not in the OED CD-ROM. My best description is that it is a cross between bologna and souse, that it, a bologna-like sausage with pieces of unsausaged meat in it, and tastes better than generic bologna. The aufschnit I met was glatt kosher and therefore beef. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:13:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:13:50 -0500 Subject: Jelly Bean (1899) Message-ID: From "pinto bean" to "jelly bean" this weekend. OED and everyone else has 1905. Is there a New Orleans "jelly bean" origin? Or is it from Chicago, as the 1905 citation has? I'll check the CHICAGO TRIBUNE when that goes online. From the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL (American Periodical Series online), January 1899, pg. 12, col. 1: _"LAGNAPPE" IN NEW ORLEANS_ (...) "I don't want no jelly beans; I want some o' them fruit tablets." Then, indeed, the worm turns, and the druggist declines to give expensive candies as lagnappe with a five-cent purchase. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Nov 24 23:51:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:51:50 -0500 Subject: In the Red (1922); In the Black (1923) Message-ID: THE NEW YORKER magazine has turned a profit. It's throwing an "In the Black" party. Black jelly beans are being served. (O.T.: I should be in the NEW YORKER! I did "New Yorker"! "In the Black"! "Jelly Beans"!) ProQuest Historical newspapers has full text of both the NEW YORK TIMES and WALL STREET JOURNAL. I searched for "in the black" & "profit" and "in the red" & "loss." The RHHDAS has "in the black" from the NEW YORK TIMES of March 11, 1928. For "in the red," you're told to see the RHHDAS volume that has "RED." (The RHHDAS stops at the letter "O.") IN THE RED 21 April 1922, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 9: Automatically, gas department ceased operating "in the red." Profits replaced losses and gas business again took up it proportionate burden of meeting divdend checks. IN THE BLACK 2 February 1923, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 13: Carter, Macy is now making satisfactory profits. Amsinck is operating in the black. So is Pacific Mail which will probably show some $250,000 earned in 1922. RED AND BLACK 20 September 1924, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 1: _RED AND BLACK_ Naturally the cold months of the year show red ink figures for the American Ice Co. It has been known in the history of the ice business that the company has been 10 months in the black and then again this has dwindled to six months. This year, owing to its unseasonal qualities, has probably seen a larger period in the red, but it has been pointed out that once the demand for ice reached summer proportions, profits instantly became very large, and so it has been this year, although it is not likely, owing to an unseaonable summer, that the company's final earnings will be as high as they were last year, when $12.52 was earned on the common stock. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 00:49:06 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:49:06 -0500 Subject: Butties and Fish & Chips (TIMES of London, 1968) Message-ID: The TIMES (London) online has expanded its coverage a bit, but it's still not finished. It doesn't have anything before about 1920 online yet, it appears. Wait a bit longer for that "German measles" antedate. I tried the database a few weeks ago for some Maltese food names, but came up empty. I tried again with "butties" and "sarnies." I got some awful mis-matches ("salaries" for "sarnies"). This is from the TIMES OF LONDON, 27 September 1968, pg. 2, col. F: _Century of Fish and Chips_ (...) The air was thick with memories of butties and cod, and Wallies (pickled gherkins to the barbarian). (...) For another, there was a rebel from Lancashire present, who protested noisily throughout that Lee's Chipped Potato Restaurant in Mossley is in fact the oldest fish and chip shop still in the business, with records going back to 1863. In sober fact, the history of who first though of joining together fish and chips is obscure and complicated. Academics are still locked in bitter argument on this crucial question. Joseph Malin, it is true, founded a business in Bow in 1860, but he did not sell chips with his fish until 1865. (...) (OED doesn't have this meaning of "butties"?--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Nov 25 01:16:41 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:16:41 -0500 Subject: what language? Message-ID: Today at a collectibles show I saw a product (a Smurfs display box, if you must know) labeled in four languages. "I'" = capital I-acute. All the text was uppercase. TODOS ESTAMOS AQUI' TOTS SOMS* AQUI' GUZTIOK HEMEN GAUDE TODOS ESTAMOS EIQUI (* SOMS I think: I can't read my own notes) The product was made in Barcelona, and the first two languages are certainly Spanish and Catalan. I'm sure the third is Basque. But what is the fourth? Obviously Ibero-Romance, but not Portuguese, which would have AQUI. Is it Galician? BTW, all the unaccented I's are dotted, even though all this text is in capital letters. (I hope I haven't sent this query in already; I'm feeling absent-minded this evening.) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 02:51:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:51:32 -0500 Subject: Vareniky, Batvinia (1828) Message-ID: "Vareniki" (or "vareniky") the Ukrainian dumplings, is not in OED. The following is from the American Periodical Series online. It's taken in turn from the LONDON LITERARY GAZETTE, September 6 (1828). The book cited in the article is ST. PETERSBURGH: A JOURNAL OF TRAVELS TO AND FROM THAT CAPITAL, THROUGH FLANDERS, THE RHENISH PROVINCES, PRUSSIA, RUSSIA, POLAND, SIBERIA, SAXONY, THE CONFEDERATED STATES OF GERMANY AND FRANCE, by A. B. Granville. The article begins "As these volumes are not yet in circulation...." For some reason, I didn't go through this book. Maybe it wasn't on the shelf? The 1828 edition that's supposed to be on the shelf here at Columbia University isn't here. From CASKET, February 1829, pg. 9: The first commends to your attention a little _vareniky_; the second, finding that you have already before you a dish of _stchy_, brings round the _rastingay_, or oblong pastry to eat with it. (...) But apropos of _vareniky_! It is a dish of which many are very fond, made of a thin paste of buck-wheat flour, not baked, having fresh cream-cheese inside, melted butter thrown over it, and eaten with sour cream. Yet this heterogeneous kind of fare is nothing compared to another called _batvinia_, which is, indeed, the king of the ollas, as may be judged from the emuneration of its ingredients, which are as follows: kvass, (the vehicle,) kislistchi, salt-fish, craw-fish, spinage, salt-cucumbers, and onions. These form a mixture (a mixture with a vengeance!) which is used and served up with a piece of ice in the middle. When the late Emperor ALexander, who is said to have been very fond of this national dish, was at the congress of Vienna, he ordered it to be presented ata dinner at which the corps diplomatique had been invited; and turning to a noble and military lord, more remarkable for blunt straight forwardness than Machiavelian diplomacy, asked him how he found the _batvinia_. "Je le trouve detestable! Sire," was the answer.--But the fish! Oh, thefish is delectable at St. Petersburgh! They have no cod and no turbot, but commend me to the _sterlet_, the soveriegn fish for the table, and to the _soudak_, and to the _sieg_, and to the _yersche_, and the _kilky_, and so on to the end of a long list; but of these more anon, when I shall introduce to the notice of my readers the fish-markets of St. Petersburgh. (...) This proved a complete lesson to me on Russian cookery. By way of gaining personal experience I tasted of every thing, and took down the name of all that I tasted; the result of which was, that I got a list of dishes, and an indigestion from eating them. Figure to yourself, gentle reader, the state in which Dr. Paris's cauldron must have been with _stchy_ and _borsch_ soups, the one with cabbage, the other with fermented beet root; rastingai and crouglo pirrog (a patty with fowl, and eggs;) stewed sterlet; quails slowly roasted in a stew-pan, and covered with thick sour cream, stewed pork with mushrooms and truffles; _jelinottes_ and white asparagus; kascha and kascha pudding; _fromage_, _caviar_, _compotes_, sweet wines, and draughts of _kwass_, or _kislistchi_, the former being a species of brewed fermented liquor, prepared from rye-flour and barley malt, of which the latter is a strong effervescent variety; fancy, I say, all this safely lodged within the parites of a single stomach, and think, oh think, of the night that must have followed! (I'm thinking that someone should invent Pepto Bismol--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 03:55:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:55:47 -0500 Subject: Brown Betty (1840, or Yale 1864); Jelly Beans (1903) Message-ID: BROWN BETTY DARE's first citation of "brown betty" is the YALE LITERARY MAGAZINE of 1864. (Hot dogs, brown betty--clearly, those Yale people are well fed. Even today, according to that WALL STREET JOURNAL article.) Horseracing gave us several by the name of "Black Maria." There was at least one "Brown Betty," but this cite appears to involve the British courses. From AMERICAN TURF REGISTER AND SPORTING MAGAZINE (American Periodicals Series online), July 1840, pg. 329: The particulars recorded of this trial establish its truth and authenticity: three horses came to the post, Childers carrying 9st. 2lbs., and Almanzor and Brown Betty carrying 8st. 2lb. each. --------------------------------------------------------------- JELLY BEANS (continued) Another citation before OED's 1905 is this one, from the Gerritsen Collection Online. From "An Evening at Helen's" in THE YOUNG WOMAN'S MAGAZINE, August 1903, pg. 343: Helen: (...) Sandwiches! Apples for sure this time. (_Opens a smaller bag._) Jelly beans! Who thought of the candy? Winnie (_pompously_): I had the great brain. Helen (_gratefully_): Bless you, my child. Why didn't you get chocolates? Winnie: There's gratitude for you! Simply because I wanted to see if you'd know beans. Helen: They didn't have chocolates? Winnie: Yes, they did. I didn't have money. Helen: How much did the jelly beans cost? Winnie: Fifteen cents. And you'd eat three times as many chocolates as jelly beans. So I bought jelly beans. (_Pats herself on the head._) Great head! Gladys: What a wife you'll make for some man! (A WIFE WHO DOESN'T BRING CHOCOLATE??--ed.) From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Mon Nov 25 05:24:06 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:24:06 -0800 Subject: Aufschnit In-Reply-To: <181.126bb535.2b12b548@aol.com> Message-ID: Aufschnit is a combination of different meat slices...like a variety pack from the butcher. If you order it with ham, it costs extra. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of James A. Landau Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 3:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Aufschnit Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? It's not in the OED CD-ROM. My best description is that it is a cross between bologna and souse, that it, a bologna-like sausage with pieces of unsausaged meat in it, and tastes better than generic bologna. The aufschnit I met was glatt kosher and therefore beef. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 14:19:28 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:19:28 EST Subject: "Bush's Daughters Moderately Higher" Message-ID: Not really relevant for ADS-L, but too good not to quote. The way AOL News flashes its headlines, it is easy to start reading a headline, miss the transition, and finish reading in the next headline. Today offered an exceptionally good example (recalling that the Presidential daughters have been in trouble for underage drinking): The two headlines in question were Bush's Daughters Celebrate Birthday Stocks Moderately Higher - Jim Landau From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 25 14:22:24 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:22:24 -0500 Subject: what language? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > TODOS ESTAMOS EIQUI I think it can be Galician. Galician Web-sites often use "eiqui", although the only Galician dictionary I have immediately available shows "aqui". At the bottom of this Galician page under "erros habituais" under "E" there is "eiqui" with its 'correct' standard form "aqui": http://www.galizacig.com/ficheiros/html/normaliza/normaliza.htm The word "eiqui" also seems to appear in the same sense in Asturo-Leonese/Miranda dialects on the Web, so maybe it could also be Mirandese or something like that. Here is a Leonese page with a link labeled "[calca] eiqui" at the foot: http://personales.com/espana/zamora/furmientu/llengua.htm ... maybe Galician would be more likely. -- Doug Wilson From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 25 14:46:42 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:46:42 -0500 Subject: Aufschnit Message-ID: The German means "a slice" -- a sliver of cold cuts -- but if it's similar to the use of the word "schnitzel" for a specific slice (weiner, of veal, pariser, of pork), it would depend on the culture. In Yiddish or Yinglish it mighht mean "the customary slice of cold cuts" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Nov 25 14:53:32 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:53:32 -0500 Subject: what language? Message-ID: Just a guess--Occitan? The people living on the French side of the Pyrenees think of their variety as a separate language. Some people remember the Second Crusade (which wiped out the Albigensian heresy and established northern French in the SW) will a great deal of bitterness. Driving into Toulouse on the main highway to the mountains the name of the city has been painted over and "Tolosa"--the Occitan name--has been substituted. Putting Occitan on the label of a product would broadcast sympathy for the distinctness of the langue d'oc culture. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Mon Nov 25 15:21:20 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:21:20 -0500 Subject: Herr Michael Jackson, dummkopf Message-ID: On the weekend, NPR had a sound clip of a woman from the Goethe Institute saying a new German word that, apparently, meant something like "fear and regret because of holding your kid over a balcony for the press." I've only the seen the transcript of the show, which doesn't include the German word. Did anyone hear it, or does anyone know what the word is? Thanks. Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 15:50:23 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:50:23 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: At last the big September issue of the ADS newsletter is available online. Go to our website http://www.americandialect.org/ and you'll find its 28 pages available as a pdf download. It announces in detail the program of the January Annual Meeting in Atlanta, remembers Allen Walker Read and Donald Lance, tells about the new DARE Volume 4 and invites help with items for Volume 5, lists our members, gives abstracts of papers presented at regional meetings, announces new books by ADS members, and reminds readers of the Dec. 1 deadline for proposals for next May's Dictionary Society meeting at Duke University. Hard copies are being created by the printer and should go out to members by first-class mail later this week. I apologize for the lateness. - Allan Metcalf From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:03:13 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:03:13 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: In a message dated 11/25/02 10:51:17 AM, AAllan at AOL.COM writes: << At last the big September issue of the ADS newsletter is available online. Go to our website http://www.americandialect.org/ and you'll find its 28 pages available as a pdf download. It announces in detail the program of the January Annual Meeting in Atlanta, remembers Allen Walker Read and Donald Lance, tells about the new DARE Volume 4 and invites help with items for Volume 5, lists our members, gives abstracts of papers presented at regional meetings, announces new books by ADS members, and reminds readers of the Dec. 1 deadline for proposals for next May's Dictionary Society meeting at Duke University. Hard copies are being created by the printer and should go out to members by first-class mail later this week. I apologize for the lateness. - Allan Metcalf >> As of this moment it is not up yet. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:16:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:16:11 EST Subject: In the Red (1922); In the Black (1923) Message-ID: There is an old story about the famous accountant who had a ritual that baffled his colleagues. Every morning when he came to his office he would unlock a desk drawer, glance inside, close the drawer, and lock it again. Finally the accountant died and his colleagues broke into his desk, to discover that inside the locked drawer there was nothing except a slip of paper on which was written "Debits are entered in RED ink." From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 16:42:59 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:42:59 EST Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: Dear Ron, << As of this moment it is not up yet. >> That's puzzling, because I checked it myself before announcing it. Looking at the "Current News" page, which is the home page, I read <> I hope there isn't some glitch that allows only me to find this. Best wishes - Allan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 17:07:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:07:29 -0500 Subject: Missouri-Show Me (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress. They don't officially subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST. Send your queries now. HOT DOG 13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged grievances. (Whew! That's close!--ed.) WINDY CITY 13 July 1887, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2. (Not close--ed.) BIG APPLE 20 September 1924, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2: SPOT CASH a two-time winner around the big apple... (A horse-racing column. Fitz Gerald's brother wrote for the WASHINGTON POST. Pretty darn close--ed.) MISSOURI--SHOW ME 9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 27: _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._ _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._ >From the Philadelphia Times. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me." That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou. (Cut about seven paragraphs to end of story. I believe this article is our earliest and pre-dates the Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha and the song, both in 1897--ed.) "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped. I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 17:22:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:22:32 -0500 Subject: Sloppy Joe--From Buffalo? (1958 WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: The first citation for "sloppy joe" and "sandwich" is 5 September 1958, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C6: _"Sloppy Joes"_ _Just as Good_ _After the Bell_ BARBECUED beef served in toasted buns is a popular sandwich filling. In a Buffalo, N. Y. high school, for example, this type of sandwich is called Sloppy Joes, and pupils ask their mothers to duplicate the specialty at home. (...)(Recipes follow--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Nov 25 18:09:07 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: Aufschnit In-Reply-To: <181.126bb535.2b12b548@aol.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone have any history on the word "aufschnit"? This looks like the German "Aufschnitt" which I believe is conventional and virtually equivalent to US English "cold cuts". http://www.walter-schaller.de/german/aufschn.htm http://www.sign-lang.uni-hamburg.de/HLEX/Konzepte/L1/L153.htm http://www.partyservice-rusch.de/Aufschnitt_Platten/aufschnitt_platten.html -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Nov 25 18:36:41 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:36:41 -0500 Subject: Pine Ridge (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST) In-Reply-To: <7FC97CEC.1DD4159D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm skeptical about the Pine Ridge food feast. Could the Post writer have had his tongue in cheek? Barry, can you send me the full text of this article? At 12:07 PM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote: > Greetings from the Library of Congress. They don't officially > subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST. Send your > queries now. > >HOT DOG > 13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: > One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large number > of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged grievances. >(Whew! That's close!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 18:58:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: "May you live in interesting times" (19 July 1961, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: See a discussion in the ADS-L archives. There are three earlier hits (December 9, 1950, pg. B13; May 14, 1929, pg. 6; June 8, 1900, pg. 6), but I'm going blind finding them. From the WASHINGTON POST, 19 July 1961, pg. D1: _All China Hands_ _Open China House_ OLD CHINA and young China joined hands with their trans-Pacific neighbor America Monday night in a modern echo of the ancient Chinese blessing, "May you live in interesting times." The occasion was a testimonial dinner at the Yenching Palace Restaurant marking the opening of China House, a center for the promotion of religious and cultural projects in Hong Kong, Formosa, and Southeast Asia. The center, which is located at 2020 Connecticut ave., nw, is the fruit of years of struggle spearheaded by a devoted band of Chinese Christians. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 19:44:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:44:39 -0500 Subject: Rickey (13 July 1890, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: From the WASHINGTON POST, 13 July 1890, pg. 9: _MID-SUMMER DRINKS._ _Seasonable Concoctions That Have Their Merits and Demerits._ The weather foundry, which General Greely edits, predicts some more Chicago weather this week, so prepare to perspire. In order to alleviate the distress of his fellow-sufferers the writer has been looking into the merits of several new combinations of liquids with a view to recommending something mildly exhilarating, something cooling but not too stimulating. One of the latest combinations is a whisky fizz, which seems to be about like all fizzes, save that bourbon is substituted for the usual article in alcohol. It is not to be recommended, however. It spoils good seltzer, and doesn't improve the whisky. The Joe Rickey comes next. There is in the minds of the rising generation considerable doubt as to whether the drink was named after Joe Rickey, or the Missouri statesman was christened after the drink. It is very simple, and tastes like a sour lemonade on a big booze. The waiter brings you a goblet of cracked ice in which is a squeezed half lime. You pour in your drink of whisky, and the darkey siphons in enough seltzer to fill the glass. Then you drink it. It is right pleasant and has the peculiar advantage inherited in and hither to monopolized by champagne and milk punches. You don't know that you have been drinking anything until you are so drunk that you don't know you have had anything to drink. For people who perspire freely and want something cooling, which will stay by and not make them thirstier than ever, a ginger-ale sour is recommended. A. C. Buel invented it, and it is very fine. (...) From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Nov 25 20:10:48 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:10:48 -0500 Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: This is off-topic, but some of you folk are skillful at searching the Patent Office records, and this is an interesting story. Is there any record of such a patent being granted? The Black Legs and the Patent Swindling Bag. *** [The Sheriff arrests gamblers, finds false dice], numerous packs of artful marked cards, together with a sweat cloth and two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard of many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent for an improvement in the art of swindling ? [the patent is said to have been] obtained through the influence of a conspicuous member of our national legislature. . . . Commercial Advertiser, March 24, 1815, p. 2, cols. 4-5, from the Bedford, Pa., Gazette of March GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 20:43:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:43:04 -0500 Subject: Seventh-inning stretch (17 September 1909, WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: Gerald Cohen may forward this to the baseball people. One popular theory is that the baseball "seventh inning stretch" was born when President Taft first did it in 1910. From a long article ("TAFT SEES GIANTS WIN") in the WASHINGTON POST, 17 September 1909, pg. 1: In the seventh he stood up to stretch with the rest of the Chicago host, but the hunch was of no avail. (About.com web site info on "seventh inning stretch attached below--ed.) About > News & Issues > Urban Legends and Folklore The Seventh-Inning Stretch Origin (or not) of a baseball tradition By David Emery Popular memory has been unkind to William Howard Taft, 27th President of the United States, who surely would have wished to be remembered for something nobler than his weight. At 300 pounds, he is the heaviest chief executive on record. It's the rare biographical sketch that doesn't mention the giant bathtub ? spacious enough to accomodate four average-sized men ? specially built for him in the White House. Baseball history has accorded him somewhat more dignity, for it was Taft who launched the tradition of the presidential first pitch on the opening day of the season. The occasion was a game between the Washington Senators and the Philadelphia Athletics on April 14, 1910 at Griffith Stadium. Apparently on the spur of the moment, umpire Billy Evans handed Taft the ball after the rival managers had been introduced and asked him to throw it over home plate. The president did so with delight. Nearly every chief executive since Taft (the sole exception being Jimmy Carter) has opened at least one baseball season during their tenure by tossing out the first ball. Legend has it, Taft inspired another baseball tradition that same day quite by accident. As the game between the Senators and the Athletics wore on, the rotund, six-foot-two president reportedly grew more and more uncomfortable in his small wooden chair. By the middle of the seventh inning he could bear it no longer and stood up to relieve his discomfort ? whereupon everyone else in the stadium, thinking the president was about to leave, rose to show their respect. A few minutes later Taft nonchalantly returned to his seat, the rest of the crowd sat down, and the "seventh-inning stretch" was born. A charming tale, but folklorists have a saying: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't. Consider the story of Brother Jasper of Mary, F.S.C., the man credited with bringing baseball to Manhattan College in the late 1800s. Being the Prefect of Discipline as well as the coach of the team, it fell to Brother Jasper to supervise the student fans at every home game. On one particularly hot and muggy day in 1882, during the seventh inning against a semi-pro team called the Metropolitans, the Prefect noticed his charges becoming restless. To break the tension, he called a time-out in the game and instructed everyone in the bleachers to stand up and unwind. It worked so well he began calling for a seventh-inning time-out at every game. The Manhattan College custom spread to the major leagues after the New York Giants were charmed by it at an exhibition game, and the rest is history. Or not, as the case may be. As it turns out, baseball historians have located a manuscript dated 1869 ? 13 years earlier than Brother Jasper's inspired time-out ? documenting what can only be described as a seventh-inning stretch. It's a letter written by Harry Wright of the Cincinnati Red Stockings, the first pro baseball team. In it, he makes the following observation about the fans' ballpark behavior: "The spectators all arise between halves of the seventh inning, extend their legs and arms and sometimes walk about. In so doing they enjoy the relief afforded by relaxation from a long posture upon hard benches." Truth be known, we have no idea where and when the custom of the seventh-inning stretch began. Based on the evidence that exists, it's doubtful the phenomenon originated with William Howard Taft, or even Brother Jasper. We know it's at least as old as 1869, that it cropped up in various places afterward and that it eventually became a solid tradition. No record of the phrase "seventh-inning stretch" exists before 1920, by which time the practice was already at least 50 years old. Where history cannot tell the whole story, folklore arises to fill in the gaps. Sources: "Baseball History." Official Site of Major League Baseball. (24 Oct. 2000) Dickson, Paul. The New Dickson Baseball Dictionary. New York: Harvest Books, 1999. Schlossberg, Dan. The New Baseball Catalog. New York: Jonathan David, 1998. "What's a Jasper?" Manhattan College. (25 Oct. 2000) "William Howard Taft." White House History. (24 Oct. 2000) From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Nov 25 21:10:56 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:10:56 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: Allyn Partin Hernandez is doing significant research on California pronunciation for her thesis at California State University, Northridge. She sent this report and gave permission for me to post it. She welcomes comments (and will see them, since she's on the list). - Allan Metcalf ----------------- The puzzle pieces are going together beautifully. I must say that the age groups' speech behavior produced no surprises and that even without machine analysis, the new sounds are as obvious as can be. (By new sounds, I refer to the shifts of /ae/ and /E/.) I used a one-page reading passage designed to elicit multiple tokens of everything that I wanted to examine. Among the categories were: /ae/ and /ae/ before nasals /E/ and /E/ before nasals and /g/ /hw/ words aplenty "narrow" and "Larry" words "Orange" and "foreign" words "hurry" words "Don" and "dawn" words -ing endings aunt, envelope, route, roof /str/ in words like "strong" & "Nordstrom" words containing /u:/, /U/ and /oU/ vowels before /l/ in words like "really" "available', etc. plenty of /aU/ opportunities "palm" and "calm" words *I used DARE's age groupings, and recorded people from 7-77, male and female *I recorded 60 people from 5 counties *Each person was asked to chat on tape after the reading passage was finished so that I could be sure that there wasn't a huge difference between the two situations' results *My informants were from the sociolinguistically influential lower-middle-class/working class brackets and they had occupations such as plumber, 911 operator, roofer, pet shop worker, public schoolteacher, mail clerk, fabric shop worker, and so on. Preliminarily, here's what I have: not one person below age 50 used /hw/ and many above didn't, either all age groups used /EI/ for "egg" and "leg" all age groups used a fronted and flattened /aU/ in words like "county" & "1000's" all groups had merged aw/ah, but the merged vowel differed in quality, with younger speakers sometimes favoring a rounded compromise vowel Breaking things down: YOUNG INNOVATOR GROUP aw/ah merged Forward /u/, /U/ and /oU/ /ae/ backed and lowered very often except before nasals /E/ backed and lowered very often except in "leg" words and in "get" words Creaky voice on sentence-final stressed vowel! Tapped /t/ replaced by glottal stop intervocalically across word boundaries "not a" /str/ becomes /Str/ in words like "strong" with male speakers leading the way TRANSITIONAL GROUP Same as above in the younger members of group Still a startling percentage of new /ae/ and /E/ shifts Higher incidence of "gIt" forms Some creaky voice, but generally only in females Rare glottal stops for /t/ TRADITIONAL /E/ before /n/ yields /I/--"when" etc. Midlands influence heard in ingliding on words like "him" /hw/ quite frequent but even still rarely 100% for each person NO glottal /t/ NO creaky voice /ae/ and /E/ in traditional places except before nasals. /ae/ before nasal didn't always raise NO forward back vowels Rural tone to speech as a whole /rUf/ occurences 8% of 7-17 63% of 18-39 66% of 40-59 83% of 60 yrs. + Much of the sound changes follow this kind of breakdown All in all, the oldest and youngest age groups had vastly different vowels in many cases. Machine analysis will be nice to do in the future, but these changes can be heard by anyone who listens to them on the tapes. I have been working away at this in my spare time and regret not giving you an update sooner. Now this just needs to be written into thesis form. It would be gratifying to have a way to triple our lifespans to see which of the shifts in the US win out. Could this be a GVS #2??? I see in the ADS Newsletter that someone gave a talk on Portland, OR speech that showed unstable /ae/ too! I wish that this could be hurried so that the So Cal findings could be considered by everyone before it's all yesterday's news.... From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Nov 25 22:29:44 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:29:44 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Message-ID: Please repond to the original sender, address below, as well as to the list. .......... Hello! I'm researching a book on the way that consumer items have changed the time - consciousness of Americans, turning us into a nation of impulse buyers and seekers of instant gratification. I've got a tricky request. Since I'm not an Etymologist, I don't know how to date the beginnings of a collocation's currency. But if you or your members know how, I would like to request such a dating for instant gratification itself. --All I really know is that instant coffee became a marketable item in 1909 with Red -- EE Coffee and then again in 1939 with powdered Nescafe. Despite my ignorance, I'm quite serious and do need your help... Sorry to appeal to you out of the blue like this. Best Wishes, Giles Slade, Ph.D. in Vancouver Canada gilesslade at hotmail.com gsslade at shaw.ca From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Nov 25 23:03:17 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:03:17 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Message-ID: Generally, the best place to start dating a term is the Oxford English Dictionary. Unfortunately, the OED does not have a specific listing for "instant gratification," but it does have a relevant listing for "instant," taking your sense back to 1912. Your 1909 usage presumably would antedate that. For "instant gratification," the earliest usage I've seen is from a 1975 legal opinion from the federal trial court in Manhattan: "Following the all too common scenario for such incidents, in their negotiations following the attack, the terrorists sought an aircraft to take them to a 'friendly country' and threatened to kill the hostages absent instant gratification." The full legal citation is Day v. Trans World Airlines, 393 F. Supp. 217, 219 (S.D.N.Y. Mar. 31, 1975), aff'd, 528 F.2d 31 (2d Cir. 1975), cert. denied, 429 U.S. 890 (1976). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Grant Barrett [mailto:gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 5:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Fwd: Query: Date for "instant gratification"? Please repond to the original sender, address below, as well as to the list. .......... Hello! I'm researching a book on the way that consumer items have changed the time - consciousness of Americans, turning us into a nation of impulse buyers and seekers of instant gratification. I've got a tricky request. Since I'm not an Etymologist, I don't know how to date the beginnings of a collocation's currency. But if you or your members know how, I would like to request such a dating for instant gratification itself. --All I really know is that instant coffee became a marketable item in 1909 with Red -- EE Coffee and then again in 1939 with powdered Nescafe. Despite my ignorance, I'm quite serious and do need your help... Sorry to appeal to you out of the blue like this. Best Wishes, Giles Slade, Ph.D. in Vancouver Canada gilesslade at hotmail.com gsslade at shaw.ca From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Nov 25 23:27:51 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:27:51 -0500 Subject: ADS news and newsletter Message-ID: Ron Butters writes, re the ADS newsletter: >> As of this moment it is not up yet. I found it at the site, as promised. --DS From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:09:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:09:47 EST Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is > said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for > the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard of > many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent for > an improvement in the art of swindling Unfortunately a fire on the night of December 14-15, 1836, destroyed the Patent Office, with the result that many patents issued before the fire are no longer extant. Does the quotation say that this particular patented Pharo box is designed for the purpose of cheating at Pharo? (analogous to a patent on a new way of marking cards?) Or is the writer considering the game of Pharo to be dishonest (as is 3-card monte, which is rarely if ever played honestly)? Interesting spelling of "Pharo". In Wild West days it seems to have been invariably spelled "faro", and it is said that the name was inspired by the Egyptian scenes on the back of 19th Century playing cards, which would imply the Biblical spelling "Pharaoh". (I have no idea if this is a correct etymology or an etymythology). - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:44:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:44:11 -0500 Subject: Corn Dog (1939); Cheeseburger (1938) Message-ID: CORN DOG 29 July 1939, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9: THE OTHER night we were telling Stanley and Billie Marcus, of Dallas, about our Hollywood adventures with the "nutberger." They came right back with one of their home-town delicacies, the "corn dog," which is a frankfurter baked in cornbread. So now I shall have another excuse to pay them a visit to Texas. --------------------------------------------------------------- CHEESEBURGER 3 December 1938, WASHINGTON POST, pg. X18: In production was Walter Wanger's "Stagecoach" and necessary was some stupendous scenery, unmarred by filling stations, concrete highways and cheeseburger stands. (Louisville's claim to the "cheeseburger" looks like it will be destroyed when LOS ANGELES TIMES full text comes out...More stuff when I get home--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 01:49:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:49:37 -0500 Subject: "Instant Gratification" (1902) Message-ID: 17 June 1902, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: "In a small way we see this in the conduct of the toper, who yields to the promise of instant gratification from drink, notwithstanding the prospect of to-morrow's headache and sickness joined with domestic dissention and public discredit." (The next hit on the database is 15 May 1968, pg. D4--ed.) From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Nov 26 02:50:51 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:50:51 -0600 Subject: California research Message-ID: How refreshing to have something dialectological to discuss on ADS-L! I'm glad to hear of someone documenting the changes of /E/ > [ae] and /ae/ > [a]. I've heard this mentioned by people at conferences but haven't seen much in print about it. Of course, it's also known as the Canadian Shift when it appears in the mouths of our neighbors to the North. It is supposed to be a chain-shifty response to the merger of the 'cot' and 'caught' vowels. I wonder if the California data can show a direct correlation between these developments at the level of the individual speaker (i.e., is /ae/ backed only by speakers with the merger and is /E/ lowered only by speakers with /ae/ backing?). This would be helpful in evaluating its status as a putative chain shift. I'm also curious about the cot/caught merger. You mentioned the pair, Don/dawn. Did you examine other contexts as well? Did you get any perception data on this merger? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 03:12:17 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:12:17 -0500 Subject: "Instant Gratification" (1902) In-Reply-To: <3F1CAA5C.52510E4D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Here is an earlier example of "instant gratification," from American Periodical Series: 1883 _Century Illustrated Magazine_ Dec. 288 How infinitely more it means to the thoroughly depraved -- the instant gratification of every savage and hungry devil of a passion which their vile natures harbor. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Nov 26 10:08:59 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:08:59 +0100 Subject: an odd patent Message-ID: The card game of "Pharaon" is documented in France since 1691 and got its name from the name of the king of hearts. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:09 AM Subject: Re: an odd patent > In a message dated 11/25/2002 3:11:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > > > two boxes for dealing cards at the Pharo bank. [One of the pharo boxes is > > said to be the invention of] the noted gambler Baily, who had a patent for > > the same, from the patent office of the United States. *** We have heard > of > > many patents . . . , but this is the first time we have heard of a patent > for > > an improvement in the art of swindling > > Unfortunately a fire on the night of December 14-15, 1836, destroyed the > Patent Office, with the result that many patents issued before the fire are > no longer extant. > > Does the quotation say that this particular patented Pharo box is designed > for the purpose of cheating at Pharo? (analogous to a patent on a new way of > marking cards?) Or is the writer considering the game of Pharo to be > dishonest (as is 3-card monte, which is rarely if ever played honestly)? > > Interesting spelling of "Pharo". In Wild West days it seems to have been > invariably spelled "faro", and it is said that the name was inspired by the > Egyptian scenes on the back of 19th Century playing cards, which would imply > the Biblical spelling "Pharaoh". (I have no idea if this is a correct > etymology or an etymythology). > > - Jim Landau > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 11:08:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 06:08:47 EST Subject: Whole Ball of Wax (1921), Winner Never Quits (1927), Garrison Finish (1891) Message-ID: A few notes before a big 3 a.m. "Fred Shapiro Special" from WASHINGTON POST full text. WASHINGTON POST FULL TEXT--The Library of Congress doesn't subscribe to this yet, but certainly will in fiscal year 2003. Some LOC librarians were given a two-month trial subscription of the service. This is what I used. I have the password, if anyone wants it. I think it should be used just in the LOC and on an LOC computer, though. "HOT DOG" IN 1896--That item was just a line more. It seems like a strange context; perhaps I'll have to look at the actual page. CALIFORNIA RESEARCH--Yes, ADS-L is also good for dialectology! It's no secret that I'm compiling work for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, DARE, OED, MERRIAM-WEBSTER, HDAS, YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, PAUL DICKSON'S BASEBALL DICTIONARY, Michael Quinion/David Wilton/Jonathon Green/David Barnhart/William Safire, and books/journals on new words and Wall Street terminology and New York terms and much more. I post these things, and other people post other things. It's just worked out that my work is in many online posts, while dialectology is in AMERICAN SPEECH and on the lecture circuit. But neither area should be exclusive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- WHOLE BALL OF WAX It's earlier than we thought! 10 April 1921, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 11 ad: _Chauffeurs' Outfits_ _Overcoats,_ _Suits, Caps_ New spring things are in for the man who drives your car. The whole ball of wax, so to speak, which includes:... Parker-Brridget Co. Nationally Known Store for Men and Boys THE AVENUE AT NINTH 11 January 1914, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SP1: He'll draw his $12,500 per annum, bask in the sunlight of the fans' favor, and let the poor magnates and his fellow players wind up the ball of wax he set rolling as well as they can. (Ty Cobb baseball story--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A WINNER NEVER QUITS, AND A QUITTER NEVER WINS I had found 1928 in the NEW YORK TIMES, and I thought that was early. 10 March 1927, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R1: _Obligation for Character_ _Held Inherent in "Realtor"_ (...) "Never start anything without finishing it. 'A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits.'" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GARRISON FINISH The famous finish was in 1886. We'll soon see what the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE has. The NEW YORK TIMES had the phrase in 1893. 6 June 1891, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6: _BATTED OUT A VICTORY_ _The Senators Solve Knell's Curves in the Last Innings._ _MADE A GARRISONIAN FINISH._ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- A TIE IS LIKE KISSING YOUR SISTER The online NEW YORK TIMES has January 1954, from the same coach. 9 November 1953, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 12: _After Middies Battle Duke, 0-0_ _Navy Coach Eddie Erdelatz_ _Defines a Football Tie_ By Martie Zad Navy coach Eddie Erdelatz came up with a classic definition for a tie football game, especially a scoreless tie between Navy and Duke---"It's like kissing your sister." No one asked the mild spoken Navy coach to explain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I WENT TO A FIGHT AND A HOCKEY GAME BROKE OUT Still rather late, but earlier than the online NEW YORK TIMES. 12 January 1980, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C1: The unruly game envoked too many memories of that famous one-line: "I went to see a fight and a hockey game broke out." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STICK A FORK IN HIM, HE'S DONE Both slightly later than the 1953 that I'd posted. The first is in a book review. 31 January 1954, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B6: Should you care to know how to cook an old rooster "so it will soften up in the pot...put a brick in the pot along with the rooster, and when you can stick a fork in the brick the bird is done." 6 October 1958, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A21: Whenever Cookie Lavagetto takes out a faltering pitcher, he always says: "I'm going to stick a fork in you; you're done." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MORE BANG FOR A BUCK I searched for "buck" and "bang." This is what I had found from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE. 21 December 1953, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 10: _Defense Asks "More_ _Bang For A Buck"_ By Stewart Alsop ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROCK AND ROLL 10 November 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B13: The new Duke Ellington Club will rock and roll to the rhythms of the Golden Gate Quartet for the nextt few days. The boys make a specialty of swinging the old spirituals. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- HILL BILLY Eight citations, all from the name of the horse. The first "hill billy" three are: 13 October 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. 19 November 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. 18 August 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LIES, DAMNED LIES, AND STATISTICS Check the online TIMES OF LONDON for the 1800s. 20 October 1901, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 19: London, Oct. 8.--Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- G.O.P. The first "G.O.P." (Grand Old Party) is 24 July 1886, pg. 2. I had found it in 1883 and all over the elections of 1884. This poor result really shocked me for the WASHINGTON POST. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 12:12:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:12:26 EST Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: I was generally disappointed with the food items I tested into WASHINGTON POST full text. I had expected "crab cakes" to be beaten easily, but it wasn't. I had expected the Delaware "submarine sandwich" to make an early appearance here in the 1940s, but I got the mid-1950s. The earliest "Manhattan" and "Martini" cocktails are in an 1891 article. There was not even an early "daiquiri." Here are some results, but I have more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JUNK FOOD "Junk food" is widely accepted to have been coined by Gael Greene in 1971--but it wasn't. The term is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. 1 September 1960, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C10: "In his book, 'Eat, Live and be Merry,' nutritionist Carlton Frdericks points out that 'half the protein in the adult diet should come from animal sources--that is, eggs, milk, cheese, meat and fish. Children should receive two-thirds of their protein from animal sources, with milk and eggs the prime sources and meat, fish and fowl second. "it is too bad that protein is the most costly element of a good diet--especially so for the lower-income families. The simple answer, I think, is to cut out practically all of the junk foods (soda pop, cookies, etc.), thereby saving money to purchase better foods.'" 25 June 1967, WASHINGTON POST, pg. L1: Food at Expo ranges from rare delights that one might think exist only in a gourmet's fancy to the greasy junk food found at a local ballpark or carnival. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GREEK SALAD Another early "Greek Salad" hit is the word balloon in this WINNIE WINKLE, THE BREADWIINER cartoon. 18 April 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9: WE'LL START WITH RUSSIAN CAVIAR THEN SCOTCH BROTH, SPANISH MACKEREL, ENGLISH MUTTON-CHOP, GREEK SALAD, ITALIAN SPUMONI, FRENCH PASTRY AND TURKISH COFFEE! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA KING This bolsters what I'd posted before. The right king must be crowned. 21 September 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3 ad: A good sherry to use to give the right flavor to lobster a la newberg, crab meat a la Maryland, and chicken a la king. _TO-KALON WINE CO._ 14 March 1915, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M4: _A NAME ON ALL MEN'S TONGUES._ _(Philadelphia Ledger.)_ The inventor of chicken a la King is dead. If Macadam is immortalized by a type of roadway, and Lord Raglan by a garment, and Sir Robert Peel by the "bobbies" and "peelers," why should not William King, of Philadelphia, go down to fame upon the palatable, savory concoction of fowl and muchrooms (sic), truffles and red peppers smothered in cream that wears his name? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SENATE BEAN SOUP Pinto beans, jelly beans, Senate bean soup--didn't I promise you beans? Not in the latest DARE under "Senate"? See the entry in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). I didn't find an early hit for it with "bean soup," but this is a fine article. I take this back with me from the Library of Congress, and post this as a duty to this great nation. From the WASHINGTON POST, 4 January 1943, pg. 1: _No Party Lines_ _Bean Soup, Senate Fixture,_ _Sure of Confidence Vote_ By Francis J. Kelly Not the least of the preparations going forward yesterday for the opening of Congress Wednesday was the polishing of the big brass kettle where the Senate's bean soup simmers. That bean soup has been a daily feature on the menu of the Senate Restaurant for at least 40 years, and one ancient waiter said he reckoned it was compulsory under the Constitution. Veterans of the Capitol, however, recalled that its daily preparation was ordered by the Senate Rules Committee around the turn of the century upon the demand of the late Senator Knute Nelson, a Republican bean soup fancier from Minnesota. The venerable delicacy, though priced at only 15 cents, is still the pride of Paul C. Johnson, head of service in the Senate dining rooms. To admiring visitors, he hands this recipe headed, "Keep 'em flying high, to do this you had better try, that good old-fashioned bean soup": "Take 3 pounds of small navy pea beans, wash and run through hot water, until beans are white again, put on the fire with 4 quarts of hot water, then take 1 1/2 pounds of smoked ham hocks, boil for 2 1/2 hours, braise one onion chopped in a little butter, and when light brown, put in bean soup, season with salt and pepper, then serve, do not add salt until ready to serve." That's his plain bean soup, which has stocked many a Senator for feats of eloquence and endurance. Johnson has a supersoup, however, for state occasions and bonfire nights. "Take a nice slice of Smithfield ham, saute it, dice it up in the bottom of the soup dish and pour the bean soup over it. M-m-m-m! M-m-m-m! Mighty fine! The essence of the Smithfield ham permeates up through the rich hot soup and it opens up your vocal chords, stimulates your appetite and clears out your head." Restaurants are maintained in both the House and Senate wings of the Capitol, with all but a few of the dining rooms open to the public. The Senators and Representatives have to pay for their meals like anyone else. Johnson, connected with the restaurant since 1900, recalled the good old days when every Senator was served a half-pound of butter at a time and there was a bowl of fruit, a basket of bread and a huge pineapple cheese on every table. Before 1903, juleps and punches were served, but alcoholic drinks no longer are available in the dining rooms. "In those days," Johnson recalled, "a waiter didn't have to go around with a pocketful of nickels and dimes. It was $5 anmd $10 bills, and keep the change." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Nov 26 15:39:10 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:39:10 -0600 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). Gerald Cohen >What is the proper term for two words that sound the same yet are spelled >differently and have different meaning. Or, is there a term? If so, I can't >recall. If there isn't, there should be. It seems like I recall meeting such >a term in my recent past! > >Example: sleigh slay meet meat and so on. > >Help me out! > From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Nov 26 15:44:35 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:44:35 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 09:39:10AM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not > "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be > identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). I believe _homophone_ is the usual term for words pronounced the same but spelled differently. Jesse Sheidlower From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 15:57:00 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:57:00 EST Subject: Take the chair in Atlanta Message-ID: Here's an opportunity for those planning to attend our annual meeting in Atlanta January 2-4. We have seven sessions that need chairs. As you know, the job of a chair is simple: show up ahead of time, meet the speakers, introduce them, diplomatically ensure that they keep on schedule, and field questions if there is time. You can find the seven sessions listed in our September newsletter, available now by pdf from our website www.americandialect.org. If you're interested, please let me know, and tell me if you have a preference for a session. You can even get your name in the official LSA program if you let me know before December 2. Yes, I know this is late notice and it's a holiday week. . . . Happy Thanksgiving! - Allan Metcalf (send your reply to me at AAllan at aol.com, rather than the whole list) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Nov 26 16:30:12 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:30:12 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: homophone > I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not >"homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be >identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). > >Gerald Cohen > >>What is the proper term for two words that sound the same yet are spelled >>differently and have different meaning. Or, is there a term? If so, I can't >>recall. If there isn't, there should be. It seems like I recall meeting such >>a term in my recent past! >> >>Example: sleigh slay meet meat and so on. >> >>Help me out! -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:22:11 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:22:11 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: Yes, the /ae/ is backed by speakers with the cot/caught merger and the /E/ is lowered by speakers with /ae/ backing. It seems to me that this could very well be a chain-shifty response to the merger of the cot/caught vowels. My data show that the cot/caught merger is about 2 (20-yr.) generations ahead of the new /ae/ and /E/ shifts. And, even then, it is female speakers who are at the leading edge with the /ae/ and /E/ innovations. This is what we would expect, of course. Naturally, the /ae/ and /E/ shifts are not wholesale and even the youngest speakers aren't consistent with them. For example, the ______/s/ environment is a strong predictor of a lowered /E/ variant. (DARE Volume 1 mentions this.) A typical informant in the youngest group might have a lowered /E/ in "guest" "reception" and "best" but later on in the recording a /E/ in the traditional position for "guest" "reception" and "recipe". "Don" and "Dawn" were side-by-side throughout the reading passage because this was the name of the protagonists in the story. Many of the informants said that it was strange to have a bride and groom with the same name! I did not get any perception data other than those reactions, however. In fact, in an effort to get the most "natural" reading style possible, I didn't put other obvious cot/caught minimal pairs next to each other in the passage. The passage is full of /aw/ and /ah/ items, not necessarily minimal pairs. I hope that that isn't a fatal flaw. My oldest informant, age 77, had a traditional vowel for "talk"-type words. Other than that, she had the merger. I didn't mention everything in my memo to Allan. I also tested for "morning"/"mourning"-type words--all merged. The "shouldEn't" and "hiddEn" innovation hasn't lost any steam since I reported onit in 1999. "want" and "watch", etc. have /ah/. Did this answer some of your questions? Thank you very much for your comments and for your interest. Allyn From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:34:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:34:32 EST Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > The term [ "Junk food"]is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing > McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy > (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. Don't you remember the old saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"? That has become the motto of the tart lawyer. The bigger the company, the easier it is for the tart lawyer to portray it as a heartless inhuman mercenary monster and his client as David versus Goliath. Also, the larger the corporation, the deeper the pockets. Are you aware that MacDonalds lost a sizable court judgment to someone who got burned by hot coffee at a Golden Arches? Tart lawyers have been salivating ever since. Why MacDonald's and not Plaid Donuts? Because MacDonald's is not only bigger and presumably wealthier, it is much more visible than Duncan Donuts. As for Pillsbury, it is associated in the public mind with flour, not fast food. > CHICKEN A LA KING > > 21 September 1911, WASHINGTON COMPOST, pg. 3 ad: > A good sherry to use to give the right flavor to lobster a la newberg, > crab meat a la Maryland, and chicken a la king. "Chicken a la king" is in the 6th Edition (date uncertain, probably 1912) of _The Settlement Cook Book_. It is NOT in the 2nd (1903) edition. - Jim Landau From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 17:40:22 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:40:22 EST Subject: Correction CA Research Message-ID: Just as I hit the "Send" button, I realized that I included "reception" as an environment of /E/ before /s/--not true, of course, sorry. "Reception" itself, though, was a word whose stressed vowel triggered a lot of lowered renditions. Allyn From simon at IPFW.EDU Tue Nov 26 18:28:50 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:28:50 -0500 Subject: California research Message-ID: Is there evidence for E > I, e.g. hEj (hedge v.) > hIj? beth simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Nov 26 18:19:25 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:19:25 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) Message-ID: You know, I hear this anti-lawyer stuff all the time, and I have to say that it seems unfair to me. It's like saying that all linguists share the political views of Noam Chomsky. Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. McDonald's served scalding hot coffee to drive-through customers in a flimsy cup, knowing that children and the elderly are particularly affected by heat. Predictably, an elderly woman spilled coffee on herself. She was hospitalized for eight days, had to have skin grafts, and was disabled for two years. Critics of the case make it sound like everyone gets hot liquids spilled on them occasionally and shouldn't make a big deal about it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > The term [ "Junk food"]is very important in these current times, with lawyers suing > McDonald's. Why McDonald's and not Dunkin' Donuts or the Pillsbury doughboy > (talk about bad role models), I'll never know. Don't you remember the old saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall"? That has become the motto of the tart lawyer. The bigger the company, the easier it is for the tart lawyer to portray it as a heartless inhuman mercenary monster and his client as David versus Goliath. Also, the larger the corporation, the deeper the pockets. Are you aware that MacDonalds lost a sizable court judgment to someone who got burned by hot coffee at a Golden Arches? Tart lawyers have been salivating ever since. Why MacDonald's and not Plaid Donuts? Because MacDonald's is not only bigger and presumably wealthier, it is much more visible than Duncan Donuts. As for Pillsbury, it is associated in the public mind with flour, not fast food. - Jim Landau From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 18:34:02 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:34:02 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I > would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media > reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. In fact the supposed outrageousness of the McDonald's case is an urban legend. McDonald's, as I understand it, kept their coffee at excessive temperatures. much hotter than at other chains, so that it would not need to be reheated for a long time. A woman was badly burned as a result. Although lawyers undoubtedly merit a variety of different kinds of criticism, the anti-plaintiff stories that are spread by the "tort reform" movement are motivated by powerful corporate interests, since large corporations are typically defendants in tort cases. Often the plaintiffs are the only ones holding to account corporations who have committed the most heinous environmental and other transgressions. If you're an environmentalist, you probably should be an enemy of tort reform. Tort reform also fits into a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate abuses go unchecked. Unfortunately the Democrats too seem to be going along with much of this. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 18:53:52 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:53:52 EST Subject: Ultramercial Message-ID: UTRAMERICAL--From today's NEW YORK SUN, 16 November 2002, pg. 8, col. 1: _Salon.com Launches "Ultramercials"_ SAN FRANCISCO, Ca.--Fighting for survival, the online magazine Salon.com has introduced an unusual adveritsing program that waives subscription fees for readers willing to wade through an interactive commercial. Salon Media Group Inc. is offering "Ultramercials" sponsored by Mercedes-Benz as an alternative to paying for premium access, which costs $18,,50 to $30 a year. (Mercedes is looking to advertise to a crowd that can't afford $30 a year?--ed.) SCUTTLEBUTT (Or, bad or misplaced etymological discussion of the day)--From the same issue of THE SUN, in an article on the Supreme Court, pg. 6, col. 2: "...it's worth recalling thhat there's a reason the word 'scuttlebutt' has the word 'butt' in it" From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Nov 26 19:05:06 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:05:06 -0600 Subject: Upgliding 'open o' Message-ID: Kind of a technical question: Can someone tell me about the conditioning of upgliding diphthongal variants of 'open o' ( the vowel of caught, dawn, etc.) heard in the South (Midlands)? Do they occur in all environments? Kurath and McDavid (1961) note they're more common before /g/ and the velarized /l/ of 'salt'. I'm particularly interested in possible differences between following stops and nasals (e.g., caught vs. dawn). thanks From Dialectap at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 19:27:26 2002 From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:27:26 EST Subject: California research Message-ID: I hear /i/ in words like "fish" in older Californians. My father, who is 78, does it. Similarly, that /e/ in "fresh" and "measure" is heard in the speech of older Californians. My great aunt does that. I'd say that the first is more common. I have not heard /I/ in that second group; /e/ only. Although I didn't test for /E/ before the velar nasal, I can say with confidence that "strIngth" and "lIngth" are common in all age groups around here. Allyn From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Tue Nov 26 20:08:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:08:39 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: Homophone. --Dodi Schultz From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Nov 26 20:41:40 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:41:40 -0800 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: <148.36dbd16.2b150aa8@aol.com> Message-ID: --- "James A. Landau" wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern > Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM > writes: > > .... That has become the motto of the tart > lawyer.... > - Jim Landau \ Jim, did you coin the phrase "tart lawyer" for a lawyer who sues fast food companies for alleged torts, or did it come from someone else? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Tue Nov 26 20:40:51 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:40:51 -0800 Subject: is cow towing the opposite of cow tipping? In-Reply-To: <9.3007a34.2b13a6cb@aol.com> Message-ID: when did kowtow first appear in the English language? amusing typo in the Venture Reporter today - undoubtedly brought on by an automated spellchecker: Critics Say U.S. Government Censors Internet Health Information VentureReporter.net Tuesday, November 26, 2002, 2:46 PM ET Health activists and Democratic members of Congress have accused the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services of censoring medical information in an effort to promote to promote conservative sexual mores. In once instance, an article finding no link between abortion and breast cancer was removed from the Internet after a pro-life member of Congress wrote to Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. In another case, an article about condom use was removed from the Web site of the Centers for Disease Control. Critics such as Planned Parenthood have denounced the excising of the articles, claiming that the Bush administration is cow towing to social conservatives. One Republican Representative and 11 Democrats wrote to Secretary Thompson, urging that the removed breast cancer article be republished. Read the New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/26/national/26ABST.html (registration required) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Nov 26 20:49:51 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:34 PM -0500 11/26/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Baker, John wrote: > >> Although there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there (and I >> would include the junk food case among them, at least based on the media >> reports I've seen), I don't think the hot coffee case is one of them. > >In fact the supposed outrageousness of the McDonald's case is an urban >legend. McDonald's, as I understand it, kept their coffee at excessive >temperatures. much hotter than at other chains, so that it would not need >to be reheated for a long time. A woman was badly burned as a result. > >Although lawyers undoubtedly merit a variety of different kinds of >criticism, the anti-plaintiff stories that are spread by the "tort reform" >movement are motivated by powerful corporate interests, since large >corporations are typically defendants in tort cases. Often the plaintiffs >are the only ones holding to account corporations who have committed the >most heinous environmental and other transgressions. If you're an >environmentalist, you probably should be an enemy of tort reform. Tort >reform also fits into a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the >long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, >health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate >abuses go unchecked. Unfortunately the Democrats too seem to be going >along with much of this. > Yes, indeed, especially since some (although much less) of *their* campaign contributions come from the same sources. Note also the recent "Homeland Security Bill" that included a provision to exempt Eli Lilly, a major Republican sponsor, from suits by families whose children have been damaged by a Lilly-produced vaccine preservative that has been linked (so far not conclusively) to autism. As John McCain and others have pointed out to no avail, this has absolutely nothing to do with "security", except that of the Lilly shareholders and corporate officers. OK, sorry, off topic, but we are talking about urban legends, and hence indirectly of etymythologies... Larry From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 20:59:40 2002 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:59:40 -0500 Subject: Take the chair in Atlanta Message-ID: Dear Allan, Of course, I'd be glad to help out -- no preference regarding session. And if you have a flood of interest, I'm as happy not to do it as I will be to serve. With all best wishes for the holiday, Michael From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Nov 26 21:28:40 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:28:40 EST Subject: is cow towing the opposite of cow tipping? Message-ID: In any other context, the verb "to tow" means "to pull". However, on the Mississippi River and its tributaries, barges are "towed" by being PUSHED from behind, the pushing being done by a "towboat". Hence, if the cow be floating in the Mississippi valley, and gets towed, it is going in the opposite direction than if it were being towed on dry land. In this sense, "cow towing" is a self-antonym. When a towboat "tows" a barge, it does so by pushing on the barge with the towboat's front end. Hence it conducts "bow towing". Now how to tow a cow? Bow tow. Not to be confused with a group of dogs conferring on the proper demonstrations of servility to overbearing feminists: a NOW sow kowtow bow-wow powwow. And of course you bow to kowtow. As for cow tipping, I believe that is for keeping Elsie contented. - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Nov 26 23:03:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:03:12 -0800 Subject: Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) In-Reply-To: <20021126204140.10230.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, November 26, 2002 12:41 PM -0800 James Smith wrote: > --- "James A. Landau" wrote: >> In a message dated 11/26/02 7:13:17 AM Eastern >> Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >> writes: >> >> > .... That has become the motto of the tart >> lawyer.... >> - Jim Landau > \ > Jim, did you coin the phrase "tart lawyer" for a > lawyer who sues fast food companies for alleged torts, > or did it come from someone else? > My son (from the safety of Canada) sends two alternate theories: "Tart lawyers? Would those be the ones who represent the Queen of Hearts, or possibly Britney Spears?" Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 00:05:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:05:41 EST Subject: New York Minute (1927, 1974 WASHINGTON POST) Message-ID: "New York Minute" is supposedly from Texas. (See DARE.) Unfortunately for this term and so much southwestern cuisine, no Texas newspaper is going online soon. It does show up in WASHINGTON POST full text on 20 January 1974, pg. C3. The story is "Constitution Time Again in Texas," By Molly Irvins ("The writer is an editor for the Texas Observer"). The next hit is 1952, but it's a false hit. This is the real thing, but because of the large time gap, I'd rule it questionable. I have no idea what OED has or is going to do for its "N" revision coming up soon. From the WASHINGTON POST, 20 April 1927, pg. 6: _The New York Minute._ Baltimore Sun: Yale's world-round reunion by radio on Wednesday will show what New York is. THe speech of President Angell at noon in New York, put on the air for loyal listeners wherever they may be, will reach Honolulu at 6 a. m. Wednesday and Tokyo at 2 a. m. Thursday. Twenty hours difference! A few brief minutes of time at New York thus become nearly a whole day when spread around the earth. If that doesn't prove the intensity of life in the metropolis, what does? (O.T. NEW YORK CITY "WHY ON EARTH DO I LIVE HERE?" MOMENT: I was walking to the Port Authority, passing Broadway and 42nd Street. There is a split apple on the billboard sign. The text says "GET TO THE CORE OF NEW YORK." In the apple's core is "DAILY NEWS." Fourteen years ago, I won the first DAILY NEWS MAGAZINE "Only in New York" contest. Ten years ago, when Gerald Cohen and I solved "the Big Apple," no one would speak to me--ed.) From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Nov 27 00:17:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:17:40 -0500 Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? In-Reply-To: <20021126154434.GA13632@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: #On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 09:39:10AM -0600, Gerald Cohen wrote: #> I received the query below. Can anyone help? The answer is not #> "homonym," for which both spelling and pronunciation must be #> identical, e.g. "quail" nn. and "quail" verb). # #I believe _homophone_ is the usual term for words pronounced #the same but spelled differently. How standardized is that definition of "homonym"? -- Mark A. Mandel From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Nov 27 00:20:48 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:20:48 -0800 Subject: na-poo, whonky Message-ID: the OED has earlier cites for "napoo", but this one from 1921 (Herbert Jenkins, _Malcolm Sage, Detective_. George A. Doran Co., NY - citation contributed to me by a friend) is fairly entertaining: "...when I found the bloomin' engines had gone whonky, then -" "Found the engines had gone what?" enquired Mr. Walters. "Whonky, dud, na-poo," explained Richards illuminatingly, whilst Mr. Walters gazed at him icily. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), with thanks to ann burlingham of perry, new york From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 00:43:00 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:43:00 EST Subject: sleigh/slay -- Is there a term for such a pair? Message-ID: Whatever the correct term is, the general public, I believe, uses "homonym" for words that sound alike but are spelled differently. See, for instance, this website which catalogs "triple homonyms": http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/%7Endauber/triplehom/ In my Catholic grammar school in the 1950s, I was taught these were called homonyms. Steve Boatti From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 01:54:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:54:03 EST Subject: Chop Suey (1886), Ice Cream Sandwich (1900) and more Message-ID: OFF-SITE, MISSING, NOT-ON-SHELF BOOKS MISSING Mida's Trademark Bureau CONFECTIONERY TRADE-MARKS (1907?) is missing from the Library of Congress. It would have been nice to use for early candy names, possibly including "jelly bean." I have to see who else has it. MISSING Carlton Fredericks' EAT, LIVE AND BE MERRY (1951) is missing from the NYPL. I searched through the catlogs of the Queens PL, Brooklyn PL, NYU, Columbia, and the Philadelphia Free Library. No one has it. I'll look for it in the LOC when I go there again. "Junk food" was possibly coined in this book. Fredericks had a very influential radio program on nutrition. OFF-SITE The George Freeman book on beans (1912) came in, and it does NOT have "pinto beans." It cites a book on beans published by the Cornell School of Agriculture. The NYPL has that, but of course, that's off-site, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOAGIE, SUB, HERO, TORPEDO SANDWICH Howard Robboy is/was a student at Temple University and then a professor at Trenton State College. I've discussed him before. A very good article about him is in the WASHINGTON POST, 4 August 1977, Pg. E10: _Please Pass the Subs--Er, Hoagies, Er... (...) Submarine, he found, is the most popular name for the sandwich, followed by hoagie, poor boy and grinder. In some cities they go by more than one name, such as Philadelphia, where one finds both hoagies and submarines. Other names are torpedo (Reno, San ANtonio, San Diego), Italian sandwich (Louisville, Reading, Allentown), here (New York City and Newark), rocket (Cheyenne and Cincinnati), bomber in Buffalo, mufalatta in New Orleans, Cuban sandwich in Miami, wedgie in Weschester County, N. Y. and slame in Berkeley. Norristown is the only place it is referred to as a zeppelin, and Madison the only place one finds it as a garibaldi. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHOP SUEY From the WASHINGTON POST, 25 July 1886, pg. 5: _NEW YORK'S CHINA-TOWN._ _A DINNER IN MONG SING WAH'S RESTAURANT._ _Not Altogether an Affair of Dogs and Rats--The Joss of the Kitchen--How to Order a Chinese Dinner--Tea in Oriental Style._ Special Correspondce of THE POST. (...) "Chow-chop-suey, chop-seow, laonraan, san-sui-goy, no-ma-das," blibly ordered my friend... Chow-chop suey was the first dish we attacked. It is a toothsome stew, composed of bean sprouts, chicken's gizzards and livers, calfe's tripe, chagou fish, dried and imported from China, pork, chicken and various other ingredients which I was unable to make out. Notwithstanding its mysterious nature, it is very good and has formed the basis of many a good Chinese dinner I have since eaten. Chopseow is perfumed roast pork. The pork is roasted and then hung in the smoke of various aromatic herbs which gives it a most delicious flavor. It is cut into small pieces, as indeed is everything at a Chinese restaurant, that it may be readily handled with chopsticks. No bread is served at a Chinese dinner, but its place is taken by boiled rice, or fan, as it is called in Chinese. A couple of bowls of rice is lanoke-an, the F being dropped when the number is prefixed, and such rice, white, light, snowy; each grain thoroughly cooked yet separate. Fish is delightfully cooked, baked in a sort of brown sauce , and masquerades under the name of sau-sui-goy. The only condiment is seow, a sort of Celestial cousin to Worcestershire sauce, and, in fact, its probable original. The evolution of Worcestershire sauce was somewhat as follows: Seow was taken from China to Indiawhere hot spices were added to tickle the palates and livers of the English East Indians, who relished Chili sauce, army powder and red pepper. There it was known as soy. From the East Indies to England, where it was still more spiced and flavored and patriotically called Worcestershire sauce. But the average Chinaman uses but little flavoring in his food, he prefers the natural taste. The whole dinner was washed down with many cups of tung-ia, as tea is called, and small cups of no-ma-deo, of Chinese whisky, which is distilled from rice and poured over figs and prunes, giving it a sweet, fruity flavor, more like a cordial than our notion of whisky,. No-ma-deo is served in comical little china teapots, and is a most insidious fluid. You drinks it from little cups holding about a tablespoonful, and it seems so mild and sweet that the intoxicating result comes over your senses like a thunderclap. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FORTUNE CAKES The California State Library has an index to the San Francisco newspapers, from 1904. It isn't very good. I used the microfiche copy in the LOC. From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 5 October 1942, Pg. 10, col. 3: _Fortune Cakes: A Threat to a Noble Art_ (...) The wisecrack has invaded the folded-up "fortune cookies" that are served with tea in the chop suey houses. (...) It developed first that all the rice cakes and fortune cookies sold in San Francisco are baked by Kay Heung and Company on Beckett Street. (The "and" is a delightful touch, for "Kay Heung" means "Extraordinary Fragrance.") This firm is owned by five partners, including Charles and Harry Hoo Soo. Charles supervises the baking and Haryy does the literary work, but he is no longer in evidence on Beckett Street because he is now employed as an electrician at the Moore Shipyard. (...) Mr. Soo Hoo has been literary adviser to Kay Heung and Company since it was founded in 1933, and in that time has placed some 100 mottoes in cvirculation. (...) Mr. Soo Hoo tells me, incidentally, that fortune cookies are unknown in China, where only the flat variety of rice cake is consumed. The folded kind with the motto inside was invented in this city about 20 years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KEY LIME PIE 28 May 1939, WASHINGTON POST, pg. TT2: Frank Markey, recently returned from Florida, went on a hunt for turtle steak, lime pie and conch chowder in Manhattan. He reports no success, and says he'll have to take me south to prove the merits of these delicacies. 14 January 1940, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A7: _Key West, Unique Resort City_ (...) Key West has also an unusual menu to whet the appetite--turtle steaks, black bean soup and delicious lime pie, are epicurean pleasures not to be overlooked. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SURF AND TURF I checked the archives. Is 1970 the earliest I posted? From the WASHINGTON POST, 29 May 1968, pg. C8 ad: for elegant dining we feature our original surf and turf nightly resv. 337-0900 _STUFT_ _SHIRT_ in the GEORGETOWN MANOR 1075 Thos. Jefferson St. ----------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRICK OR TREAT From a letter sent to the WASHINGTON POST, 21 November 1948, pg. S11: Regarding the question of N. L. on "trick or treat": I lived in Washington from 1817-1938 and since then, in Arlington. Previously, I had lived in some 20 other towns and cities and I never saw nor heard of the begging practice until about 1936. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ICE CREAM SANDWICH 25 July 1900, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4: _HOT WEATHER ENTERPRISE._ _Devices of Street Merchants and Others to Attract Patronage._ >From the New York Tribune. (Previously posted--ed.) 19 August 1900, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15: >From the New York Telegraph. The ice cream sandwich is a new hot weather luxury which is rapidly coming into downtow favor. An enterprising hokey-pokey vendor, whose daily station is in John street, is the projector, and his push cart is constantly surrounded by a jostling, sweltering crowd of patrons, representing all social conditions, from banker down to bootblack and newsboy. The inventor takes a graham wafer, deftly plasters it with ice cream, claps another wafer on top, and there is your ice cream sandwich. The cost is trifling, ranging from 2 to 3 cents, according to the size and thickness of the thing. But the man is simply coining money, where he eked out a meager revenue before. He has simply tickled the public's fancy for something new. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SUNDAE 11 August 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. E7: _THE SEDUCTIVE SUNDAE._ _None of the Soda Fountain Men Can Tell How the Name Originated._ >From the New York Tribune. (Previously posted--ed.) 16 August 1908, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M1: _THE ORIGIN OF "SUNDAE." (Kansas City Journal) (Also previously posted--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- WASHINGTON POST FOOD MISC. HUISH PUPPY--The first hit is the late date of 24 March 1938, pg. X13. The article describesthe WPA's new book, U. S. ONE, which is "both a history and a culinary lesson." American regional food is described in five paragraphs here. Did DARE and OED and Andy Smith all use this book, or should I begin citing from it? DANISH PASTRY--A Bellevue Farms Lunch Co. ad for "Danish Pastries" is 23 December 1919, pg. 3. ICE CREAM CONE--The first citation is a rather late 23 June 1906, pg. 8. SALT WATER TAFFY--OED has 1894. From 22 April 1894, pg. 20: "The first booth where we paused was the one at which salt water taffy was sold. TAILGATE PICNIC--The first hit is the rather late 20 June 1962, pg. D4. "Olive Meat Loaf for Tail-Gate Bunwiches," 8 July 1965, pg. E10, is possibly of interest. HOT STOVE LEAGUE--Tons of hits, including two regular columns using this in the title. However, the first hit of 12 March 1920, pg. 8, doesn't beat the 1912 that Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY received from David Shulman. From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Nov 27 02:53:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:53:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [no subject] Message-ID: This came to the ADS-L request address; I'm sending it to the list as a whole for anyone who wants to reply. Jesse Sheidlower ----- Forwarded message from zhang weiguang ----- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:30:02 +0800 (CST) From: "zhang weiguang" To: ads-l-request at listserv.uga.edu Subject: X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: [61.243.175.142] X-Mailer: Coremail2.0 Copyright Tebie Ltd., 2001 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.8 required=5.0 tests=DEAR_SOMEBODY,DEAR_SOMETHING,RCVD_IN_RFCI, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,SUBJ_MISSING version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: ** Dear Sirs, My name is Zhang Weiguang,born in 1955.I'm from China.I am an editor.I hope to v isit your Society with two purposes.One is to learn more about The American slang s.I'm interested in them and collected many of them.I want to write a book in whi ch I will try to solve some problems such as how did the meanings of the slangs e merge?what kind of cultural phenomena do they reflect?what position do they occup y in the modern English? and so on.The other purpose is I want to make a cultural investigation at your Society and discuss with you about the possibility of our spreading your academic activities in China or setting up a branch which belongs to you in China. I plan to stay in America for only two weeks at my own expenses.I shall be thank ful if I can be invited by anyone of you to visit your country.If you would like to know more about me,please put forward your questions,I'll be glad to answer th em. I'm looking forward to your e-mail. Thank you. Yours, Zhang Weiguang ============================================================= ????????????????????????????-???????? ?????????????????? http://dating.163.com/ ???????????????????????????????????? http://auctions.163.com/zhuanqu/fashion/ ???????????????????????? http://popme.163.com/freemail/index.html ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 06:40:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:40:32 -0500 Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) Message-ID: "NUTTY AS A FRUITCAKE" (continued) Last Tuesday, in a fit of "nutty" masochism, I wrote an e-mail to the editor of the VILLAGE VOICE. No, "nutty as a fruitcake" was not coined in 1935. Check the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG H-O. My name is also in that volume. There was no response. This week's VILLAGE VOICE is out. There is no correction. --------------------------------------------------------------- NAGE From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 74, col. 3: ...and an entree of wild-mushroom ravioli in a fish-free black-truffle "nage" (a term usually reserved for seafood broth). OED's revision is fast approaching "nage." A look at "nage" shows a disaster. It's an obscure word meaning "buttocks." There were 469 hits for "nage" and "restaurant" on the Dow Jones database. The earliest hit is strickly in French. The first hit on the online NEW YORK TIMES appears to be 1972. 21 June 1972, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 54: A simpler taste might have preferred the same crayfish, from a lively tank beside the terrace, poached a la nage, but it was an elegant preparation in the Escoffier tradition. 27 March 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 363: But how can you come home and whip up a _petit homard a la nage_, a _caneton au cidre_, a _feuilette aux pommes chaudres_? 8 May 1985, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C1: A few of Mr. Gerin's best dishes are a nage of shrimp (in a shrimp broth), briefly cooked and masked with a white butter sauce;... 24 May 1987, DALLAS MORNING NEWS, pg. 6J: Instead, le Bernardin serves fish a la nage, or lightly simmered in broth with fresh vegetables, or poached with a light dressing of warm herb vinaigrette, or in an emulsion of fish stock wine, olive oil, or butter. 30 August 2002, WASHINGTON POST, pg. T22: Another very nice appetizer of seared scallops, English peas and favas was given unusual complexity, but not gravity, by a tarragon-laced nage (an emulsified broth) with a tantalizing hint of sweetness, almsot like vanilla, that came from carmelized onions. 4 October 2002, SEATTLE TIMES, pg. H11: Where Staples would balance the delicate flavors of grilled prawns, creamy polenta and lobster nage ($13) with a garnish 0f crisp pancetta, Campbell uses apple-wood-smoked bacon, which dominates more than complements. 6 November 2002, NEW YORK TIMES, section F, pg. 11, col. 1: Walleyed pike (brought in from Switzerland, not Wisconsin, a waiter confided) is wrapped in potato slices so thin they appear to be fish scales and then served in a mellow truffle nage. (At least no one serves the "buttocks" in "whore sauce"--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- SMITHFIELD HAM OED has 1908 for "Smithfield ham." The latest DARE ends at "Sk." From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 April 1892, pg. 12: _WHITE HOUSE DINERS._ _THE PRESIDENT LIKES HAM AND OFTEN HAS IT._ WASHINGTON, April 9.--A notable feature at three of the large dinner parties given at the White House this season has been to serve as one course Smithfield ham smoking hot and surrounded with spinach. Immediately after this was served Roman punch as the next course. The President is particularly fond of ham, so that it has become a staple dish at the White House, and whatever else is served at luncheon there is always sure to be a beautifully-browned ham. (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- SENATE BEAN SOUP (continued) From the NEW YORK TIMES database this time. 24 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 20: Meetings are Wednesday luncheons in the Senate restaurant, where the girls order bean soup or an 85-cent fried chicken meal. 4 January 1943, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 12: _SENATE BEAN SOUP_ _REMAINS AT 15 CENTS_ _Upper House Restaurant Pre-_ _pares Its Forty-Year Feature_ (Recipe and details are the same as in the WASHINGTON POST--ed.) 11 January 1943, NEW YORK TIMES, "Topics of the Times," pg. 14: _Double Standard in Soup._ Most people have assumed that only the best was served up to our Congressmen in the way of food, but it now appears that there are two grades of bean soup. An Associated Press story from Washington informs us that as far back as the turn of the century the Senate Rules Committee decided that the chamber's restaurant should never be out of bean soup, and that it has been a daily fixture on the menu now for about forty years. The details of its preparation, including ham hocks, a braised onion chopped in a little butter and, of course, beans, suffice to turn the thoughts far from the process of lawmaking. But this is the "plain" bean soup. There is a "super-soup," we are told, for state occasions. This calls for special ingredients, such as a "nice slice of smoked ham," which is sauted and diced, and it has, of course, its special uses. "It opens up your vocal cords, stimulates your appetite and clears out your head." We have here perhaps the explanation of hitherto unexplained flights of oratory and displays of unaccustomed wisdom. It may also be permitted to ask why the super-soup is not served more frequently. --------------------------------------------------------------- FAIR WORDS BUTTER NO PARSNIPS David Shulman and I gave a medal to the health services worker who helped to save his life. Still, Shulman felt she deserves a monetary gift. (We'll do that for Christmas.) "Fair words butter no parsnips," he said. He told me to look it up. OED has it under "butter," from 1870. However, for 1645, it has "Fair words butter no fish." 9 November 1822, THE GOSPEL HERALD (American Periodical Series online), pg. 203, col. 2: "FAIR WORDS BUTTER NO PARSNIPS." PROVERB. (The paragraph-long story uses this as a theme, but doesn't involve parsnips--ed.) From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Wed Nov 27 09:06:52 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:06:52 +0100 Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) Message-ID: Oh no, "nage" has nothing to do with buttocks. "? la nage" literally means "swimming", and in the kitchen it means "boiled in a court-bouillon" (in a broth of water, white wine and spices) when cooking fish, lobsters, etc. Jan Ivarsson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:40 AM Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); Smithfield Ham (1892); Buttered Parsnips (1822) > NAGE > > From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 74, col. 3: > > ...and an entree of wild-mushroom ravioli in a fish-free black-truffle "nage" (a term usually reserved for seafood broth). > > OED's revision is fast approaching "nage." A look at "nage" shows a disaster. It's an obscure word meaning "buttocks." > There were 469 hits for "nage" and "restaurant" on the Dow Jones database. The earliest hit is strickly in French. The first hit on the online NEW YORK TIMES appears to be 1972. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 09:49:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:49:30 EST Subject: Nage (Buttocks?); INS acronym; Press-Avail/Dugout Message-ID: NAGE--Yes, I was just kidding around with "buttock." But that's the only thing OED has!...Sorry for that "strictly" typo. INS ACRONYM--From the VILLAGE VOICE, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 52, col. 2: They kidded about alternative ways of reading the INS's acronym--"Incompetent and Negligent Service," "Ignoring National Security"--... (F.Y.I. ON "ACRONYM"--I plugged it into the WASHINGTON POST database, but couldn't find a single hit before the 1950s! This, in a city of VIPs, and POTUS, and the FBI and CIA and INS and many other agencies--ed.) PRESS-AVAIL/DUGOUT--From NEW YORK PRESS, November 27-December 3, 2002, pg. 16, col. 1: SENATE MAJORITY LEADER Tom Daschle's valedictory press conference last week got most attention for his bizarre allegation that Rush Limbaugh's discussion of his legislative record had led to death threats. Lee remarked on was the more run-of-the-mill piffle that he spouted throughout this "press-avail," as we used to call them (or "dugout," as they're called in the Washington slang of the moment). From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Nov 27 12:00:24 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:00:24 -0500 Subject: tort reform, etc. -- OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: What follows is off-topic -- delete now if you choose. ****************** I contend that the following statement, from a recent ADS-L posting, is a rash generalization at best, and is arguably untrue. It is pure political rhetoric or demagoguery, however one prefers to call it: >> a large Republican agenda that encompasses, in the >long run, trashing Medicare and Social Security as well as environmental, >health and safety regulation, as well as letting Enron-like corporate >abuses go unchecked. << The above is no more true than one saying that the Democratic Party agenda calls for the revolutionary overthrow of the federal government, or for the abolition of all US corporations. Such generalizations as those above are misguided, and should not go unchallenged -- hence this posting. Personally, I favor some form of tort reform (and a flat tax, and other "Republican" issues), but at the same time I also believe that Medicare and SS are necessary and important, and am sure that they will never be trashed -- not by the US Congress, at least. The Clean Air and Water acts are critically important, and have been largely effective, though we must be ever vigilant for cheaters, and prosecute them severely. I feel that Enron and similar abuses should be severely punished. btw, I am registered as an Independent. Frank Abate abatefr at earthlink.net From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 14:14:36 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:14:36 EST Subject: Chop Suey (1886)... Message-ID: In a message dated 11/26/02 8:54:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 5 October 1942, Pg. 10, col. 3: > > _Fortune Cakes: A Threat to a Noble Art_ > (...) The wisecrack has invaded the folded-up "fortune cookies" that are > served with tea in the chop suey houses. (...) Nice hit. The earliest I've been able to find was in the 1950's, Cyril M. Kornbluth's short story "MS Found in a Chinese Fortune Cookie". They don't make chop suey like that any more! > From a letter sent to the WASHINGTON POST, 21 November 1948, pg. S11: > > Regarding the question of N. L. on "trick or treat": I lived in Washington > from 1817-1938 and since then, in Arlington. Previously, I had lived in > some 20 other towns and cities and I never saw nor heard of the begging > practice until about 1936. Please tell me that you made an accurate transcription and the "1817" was in the original. > WASHINGTON POST FOOD MISC. > > HUISH PUPPY--The first hit is the late date of 24 March 1938, pg. X13. MWCD10 gives "ca. 1918". A proposed date in the FDR administration is amusing, since (according to A. Merriman Smith _Thank You Mr. President_) FDR ate exactly one hush puppy in his entire life. That one was smuggled into his residence despite the objections of his cook, who refused to let such "peasant food" be served to the President. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Nov 27 15:56:19 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: chat-room shorthand satire Message-ID: more fine reportage from the Onion - http://www.theonion.com/onion3844/infograph_3844.html -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ Clear writers assume, with a pessimism born of experience, that whatever isn't plainly stated the reader will invariably misconstrue. -- John R. Trimble From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 16:17:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:17:11 EST Subject: McLawsuit Message-ID: McLAWSUIT--"McLawsuit and the Batt;e for the American Soul" is in today's NEW YORK SUN, 27 November 2002, pg. 7. No "tart lawyer" or any other slang is in the article. 1917--That date on the "trick or treat" posting should read, obviously, 1917 (not 1817). SIMULACRUM--That same NEW YORK SUN architecture critic gave us another "simulacrum" the other day. I remember a publication that had a "feckless" fetish. Maybe I should tell both sources to switch words? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Nov 27 17:01:29 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:01:29 -0800 Subject: Word for Saddam Message-ID: There's no particular point to this message except to share an utterance that members of this list might get a kick out of. On the news last night, a local TV station was interviewing a 19-year-old from Portland who had joined the Marines right out of high school and was training at Camp Pendleton (CA) for urban warfare. Asked how he felt about Saddam Hussein, he said he didn't know much about him but that if what people said was true, "I guess he's kinda heinous." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Nov 27 17:05:48 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:05:48 -0800 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: <212569.1038387689@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: Or as Bill and Ted would have said "He's most non-non-heinous" allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > There's no particular point to this message except to share an utterance > that members of this list might get a kick out of. > > On the news last night, a local TV station was interviewing a 19-year-old > from Portland who had joined the Marines right out of high school and was > training at Camp Pendleton (CA) for urban warfare. Asked how he felt about > Saddam Hussein, he said he didn't know much about him but that if what > people said was true, "I guess he's kinda heinous." > > Peter Mc. > > **************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 17:34:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:34:25 EST Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/02 7:00:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > Personally, I favor...a flat tax Before you decided you favored the "flat tax", did you ponder on Nixon's Law: "Every change to the tax code helps somebody and hurts somebody." Never heard of Nixon's Law? Of course not. I just now invented the name. Why give the honor of the name to President Nixon (who, incidentally, and to the surprise of a certain contributor to ADS-L, did more for the environment than any other US President except perhaps his fellow Republican Theodore Roosevelt)? Because while many other politicians have pondered this Law, only Mr. Nixon ever actually designed a tax based on this Law. Specifically early in his administration he proposed replacing the existing welfare system with a "Negative Income Tax." I will grant that the idea of a Negative Income Tax quickly passed into oblivion, forgotten even by Nixon's supporters. I will cheerfully grant that the very speed with which it was forgotten is strong evidence that it was a Bad Idea to begin with. However, that is beside the point. Nixon should receive credit for having made an imaginative (albeit eminently forgettable) proposal to use the very philosophy of the tax system in order to help the citizenry of the United States. Come to think of it...had the Negative Income Tax been put into effect, should those people receiving money from the Federal Government under this system be referred to as "taxpayers"? - James A. Landau P.S. Come to think of it, the Negative Income Tax had a very un-GOP philosophical basis. Putting Welfare under Revenue implies that Welfare is a purely financial transaction---"Mr. X is entitled to a payment from the government because his income is such-and-such"---and also implies that non-financial incentives, or disencentives, to get a job are not relevant. Treating Welfare as a Topic Unto Itself (or in President Reagans very felicitous metaphor, "safety net") gives you a lot more flexibility in thinking how to implement a welfare system, e.g. you now have the philosophical freedom to argue for---or against---requiring welfare recipients to work. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 20:16:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:16:30 -0500 Subject: Bugs on a Log (1962, 1980) Message-ID: The Donnell Library (West 53rd Street) is still open on Mondays, and David Shulman has been going to it. I didn't think it had anything I wanted. Shulman checked out the Children's Room and said I might be interested in the SUBJECT INDEX TO CHILDREN'S MAGAZINES, from 1948. I looked under "cooking" and "food" and other entries. No "sloppy joe" was in the title of an article. I'm sure it's somewhere, though. You can't tell everything from, say, a "picnic lunch" title. The following two are the closest I came to "ants on a log." September 1962, JACK AND JILL, pg. 37: _Peanut-Butter Specials_ (...) _Stuffed Celery_ To prepare an after-school snack, blend four tablespoons of peanut butter with two tablespoons of mayonnaise. Wash and dry several stalks of fresh celery. Now spread the peanut-butter mixture very thickly inside the curve of the celery. April 1980, HUMPTY DUMPTY, pg. 36: _Bug on a Log_ (...) (Pg. 37--ed.) HOW TO FIX: Celery stalks cut in 5-inch strips Peanut butter Raisins Small carrot slices WHAT TO MIX: Fill celery stalks with peanut butter. Stick two raisins in peanut butter at one end of celery stick so that they look like eyes. Use a tiny slice of carrot for a mouth and there you have it--a tasty little bug on a log! (O.T. HEY, PROQUEST PEOPLE! WHEN IS _JACK AND JILL_ GOING ONLINE??--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Nov 27 20:31:00 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:31:00 -0500 Subject: Regional Food in U. S. ONE (1938) Message-ID: AMERICAN GUIDE SERIES U. S. ONE MAINE TO FLORIDA Compiled and written by the Federal Writers' Project of the WOrks Progress Administration Sponsored by the U.S. No. 1 Highway Asssociation New York: Modern Age Books 1938 Pg. XIX: MAINE APPLE FRITTERS... APPLE SLUMP OLD-FASHIONED PAN DOWDY STEAMED SUET PUDDING BAKED INDIAN PUDDING WOODS-STYLE PLANKED GAME FISH WOODS-STYLE BAKED GAME FISH 1743 POLOE RED FLANNEL HASH SOUSED CLAMS CLAM BAKE BOILED PIES EGGS CANADIAN ROAST VENISON NEW HAMPSHIRE BLANC MANGE Pg. XX: LOBSTER ROLL PEPPER STEAK SANDWICHES FRIED CLAMS FISH AND CLAM CHOWDER CODFISH BALLS CRANBERRY TURNOVERS MASSACHUSETTS BOSTON BAKED BEANS BOSTON BROWN BREAD NEW ENGLAND CHOWDER SUCCOTASH BAKED INDIAN PUDDING PARKER HOUSE ROLLS RHODE ISLAND JOHNNY CAKE CLAM CAKES CLAM CHOWDER WHITPOT PUDDING BROWN BREAD INDIAN APPLE PUDDING OLD-FASHIONED MOLASSES COOKIES CLAM BAKE Pg. XXI: CONNECTICUT BROILED LOBSTER SHORE DINNER CLAM BAKES SQUASH PIE MINCE PIE COWSLIP ORDANDELION GREENS BAKING POWDER BISCUITS CLAM CHOWDER PUMPKIN PIE BAKED WOODCHUCK ROAST RACCOON (Fred Shapiro's favorite--ed.) RHUBARB PIE BAKED SPARE RIBS NEW ENGLAND BOILED DINNER NEW YORK OYSTER STEW SOFT-SHELL CLAMS CAMP FIRESWEET POTATOES BLUSHING BUNNY (We have this every night in New York City--ed.) POST ROAD PUDDING (Ten out of ten New Yorkers wouldn't be able to find Post Road on a map--ed.) Pg. XXI: UPSIDE DOWN CAKE BROILED T-BONE STEAK NEW JERSEY SUCCOTASH BEACH PLUM JAM NEW JERSEY CLAM CHOWDER BULLY CLAM CHOWDER CAPE MAY CLAM CHOWDER SNAPPER SOUP SNAPPER STEW PLANKED SHAD PICKLED EELS AND MUSSELS THE LARGEST HOT DOG IN THE WORLD: a New Jersey invention. PENNSYLVANIA Pg. XXIII: KARTUFFLE GLACE LENTIL SOUP FAGGOTS FROIS OR WELSH PANCAKES SOUSE SCHNITZ UN KNEPP PORK FRITTERS APPLE BUTTER PHILADELPHIA SCRAPPLE SAUERKRAUT ANDDUMPLINGS PIGS' KNUCKLES WITH SAUERKRAUT AND DUMPLINGS SHOO-FLY MARYLAND MARYLAND BISCUITS MARYLAND FRIED CHICKEN TIPSY PARSON EGGNOG SOFT CRABS CREAMED HOMINY LADY BALTIMORE CAKE Pg. XXIV PLANKED SHAD SALLY LUNN STUFFED HAM BRAISED MUSKRAT SWEET POTAO SOUTHERN KOSSUTH CAKE DIAMOND-BACK TERRAPIN VIRGINIA CORN PONE CORN DODGER ASH CAKE CRACKLING BREAD SPOON AND BATTER BREADS BRUNSWICH STEW TURNIP GREENS AND COLLARDS FRIED HERRING HERRING CAKES FRIED APPLE PIE SMITHFIELD HAM Pg. XXV: NORTH CAROLINA CHICKEN BRUNSWICK STEW BARBECUED CHICKEN BEATEN BISCUITS SWEET POTATO BISCUITS BAKED HAM SUCCOTASH PEACH AND OTHER SHORTCAKES TIPSY CAKE SALLY WHITE CAKE SWEET PICKLED PEACHES BRANDIED PEACHES WINE JELLY SOUTH CAROLINA SCRAPPLE PERSIMMON PUDDING SWEET POTATOES SWEET POTATO BISCUITS SWEET POTATO PONE SWEET POTATO PUDDING JELLY PIE (Gotta go!) From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Nov 27 20:38:33 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: Conduct "Unbecoming" in 1756 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for all the help on this. I asked for a search of specifically Westlaw because that's the one database that I don't have access to that I thought might help in this case. I had already found the ones in LOC and Lexis, including the 1756 courtmartial of Dekeyser where it states he acted "inconsistent with character of a gentlemen" and one 5 days later that states he behaved "in a manner unbecoming." I had even gotten the Articles of War so as to see what the 23rd one that he was in breach of said before I asked for assistance. I was simply hoping Westlaw would go earlier. My bad. Next time I'll be more specific so there's no "double" effort. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 14:40:17 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:40:17 EST Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC Message-ID: In a message dated 11/27/2002 9:08:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, dcamp911 at juno.com writes: > the Earned Income Credit...is esentially Nixon's idea of the negative > income tax Thank you for the information, which I was not aware of. I seriously doubt that Nixon dreamed up a "Negative Income Tax" on his own. Rather, some economist or writer came up with the idea, and Nixon and/or some of his advisors thought it was worth implementing. It is also possible that whoever promoted the idea of the current Earned Income Credit read the same paper or whatever that Nixon did, or more likely a more recent rehash of the same paper. That is, the most probable thing is that Nixon's NIT and the current EIC have the same ancestor, and the EIC is a cousin rather than a child of the NIT. It would be an interesting exercise for some economic historian to chase down the origins of the terms "NIT" and "EIC". There is a corollary to Nixon's Law which goes, "The bottom bracket of the income tax is part of the welfare system." That is, when you are designing any progressive tax, the decision where to place the bottom bracket, in fact the bottom few brackets, is made not on revenue considerations but by asking "just what is the government going to be doing with people who have negligible income?". This corollary holds true even for a "flat tax". Consider Mr. X whose earned income last year was $500. Are you planning to hit his $500 with the flat tax, or are you going to write your flat tax law so that it only kicks in at say $10,000 income? The first option seems unncessarily cruel. The second option, if adopted, has converted your pristine flat tax into a progressive tax. This is why I made the statement that a flat tax is in violation of Nixon's Law. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 15:26:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:26:54 EST Subject: "I'm From Missouri" (long, full 1897 WP article) Message-ID: I'll type the article in full that I found Monday in the Library of Congress, using WASHINGTON POST full text. It is a year earlier than the 1898 Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha, which had the slogan on buttons. It's also a year eaerlier than the song (by NY songwriters). We can wait for the ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH to go full text some time in the next five years or so, but I'd already looked there. From the articles I got, no one knew the origin. The Missouri Historical Society has newspaper clippings, and again, I couldn't do better. We now have the huge Making of America databases, the American Memory database, the huge American Periodical Series in full text, full text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, full text of THE NATION, full text of the NEW YORK TIMES, and full text of the WASHINGTON POST. We can wait a little bit for full text of the BROOKLYN EAGLE, LOS ANGELES TIMES, and CHICAGO TRIBUNE. That should be enough to declare that this is it. The origin of the motto of the State of Missouri. Gerald Cohen should round up our stuff, add it to the work of the late Donald Lance, and publish a volume with the University of Missouri Press. Just a suggestion. We can even tell the press, and you all know how successful I am at that. Sorry in advance for typing mistakes...I'll go to Philadelphia in a few days to get the original article...On a prior trip to Philadelphia, I'd found out that the Willard Van Diver "Five O'Clock Club" dinner (supposedly, the origin of the motto) was held in 1900. From the WASHINGTON POST, 9 May 1897, pg. 27: _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._ _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._ >From the Philadelphia Times. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me." That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou. His face and hands were badly scrateched where they had come in contact with the sharp gravel, there was a bruise over one eye where his head has struck against a fragment of Pike's Peak, one elbow felt "like a tarnation wildcat had clawed it," and there was a general feeling of soreness "pretty much everywhere," as he explained it to the doctor, but he was alive and thankful. John had jumped from the platform of a Colorado Midland passenger train at the entrance to the first tunnel above Manitou, while laboring under a mistake as to the destination of the train, which appeared to be plunging into the mountain side. "You don't catch me lettin' 'em run me into the ground with any of their gol darned trains, when I've got a through ticket to Cripple Creek in my pocket," he remarked as the doctor took another stitch in his scalp and adjusted an artistic court plaster shingle on the swelling dome over his right eye. "I'm pretty badly peeled up, but you bet I'm still on top, and that's where I'm going to stay." And John Duffer took a good-sized bite out of a mammoth piece of navy plug which he dug up out of his pocket and relapsed into momentary silence, though his jaws worked faster than ever. "You see, Doc," said the Missourian, as he deluged the gas log in the doctor's fireplace with the overflow from his lips, "I was a-going over to Cripple Creek to see what those gold mines look like, where they shovel up the stuff into a wagon and let her go at that, and find chunks of gold in the rocks. I had my grip and a bucket of grub in the car, and just after the train left the depot I went out on the platform to look at the mountains. Down on one side was a holler, and up on tother side was a hill that I couldn't see to the top of, and on all sides was mountains, and I couldn't see how the train was ever going to dodge them all. The little shelf the train was running on kept wiggling through them hills like a snake in a plow field, and then I looked ahead and saw where a hill had been split plumb down to the ground to let the railroad through, and that was all right, because I could see daylight on the other side. And then when the train went through that split in the hill it switched around kinder to one side, and I could see the track ahead of the engine, and then I saw a big white mountain all covered with snow sticking clear up into the clouds, and nobody knows how much farther, and the next thing I knowed the engine give a screech like she was most scared to death, and I looked quick and the whole business was going plunk into a hole in the ground. And then I jumped. Came near getting killed, but I fooled them that trip. You don't catch me running up against any game that I don't know nothing about, and I ain't going into anything that I don't know the way out of. Then I came down town to get patched up, and I'm going to Cripple Creek some other way, even if I have to walk." "And what became of the train?" asked the doctor, who had been feeling of Duffer's ribs to se if they were all in place. "Didn't they stop for you?" "Stop nothing. The last I saw of the darned thing it was still going into the hole and I didn't care whether it ever stopped or not. I wasn't on it. Say, do you reckon I could get my bucket back if they get them out?" It took considerable time and the testimony of several witnesses to convince Mr. Duffer that the entire train and its contents were not hopelessly buried in the interior of Pike's Peak, and quite a little crowd accompanied him to the station, where Agent Dunaway telegraphed to Cascade to return one lunch pail and grip labeled John Duffer, Pike County, Mo. And as he left the station to fill up on "free soda biling right out of the crowd" Mr. Duffer explained, once more: "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped. I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Nov 28 15:54:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:54:56 EST Subject: Regional Food in U. S. ONE (1938); O.T. Christmas in Kenya Message-ID: This continues a post of the regional food described in U. S. ONE (1938), published by the Works Progress Administration. My half hour session at the NYPL computer was up. Many of the foods listed, such as Connecticut's "Roast Raccoon" and New York's "Blushing Bunny" and "Post Road Pudding," will be impossible to find today. Even the latest volume of DARE has no entry for "Post Road." Pg. XXVI: (SOUTH CAROLINA--ed.) JELLY PIE... CAROLINA OPOSSUM CAROLINA OPOSSUM AND SWEET POTATOES DEVILED BAKED HAM FISH STEW HOMINY WAFFLES CARCKLING CORNBREAD GEORGIA 'POSSUM AND 'TATERS SOUSE MEAT TURNIP GREENS CORN PONE SORGHUM PUDDING LEATHER BREECHES: dried green snap beans, soaked overnight and boiled with salt bacon. BARBECUE BRUNSWICK STEW FRIED PIES BOILED PEANUTS FLORIDA WAMPUS OR HUSH PUPPIES: corn meal scalded in ilk, mixed with egg, baking powder, and onion, and cooked in the grease of frying fish. In early Flordia days when fish were fried in large pans otu of doors, the savory odor caused the family's pack of hounds to whine and yelp with hunger. As a means of quieting the dogs, the cook would hastily scald corn meal, pat it into cakes without salt or shortening, and cook it in the grease of frying fish. (Pg. XXVII--ed.) When done, it was thrown to the dogs, after which silence prevailed; hence the name, hush puppies. SWAMP SALAD SWAMP CABBAGE COMPTIE RATTLESNAKE SNACKS RATTLESNAKE ENTREE FROMAJARDIS SEA TURTLE FLORIDA GOPHER: sliced into steaks and fried over a low fire. (In Florida a gopher is a land turtle.) GUAVA JELLY STONE CRAB COQUINA COCKTAIL CRAWFISH ENCHILADO ARROZ CON POLLO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T. CHRISTMAS IN KENYA The next stop in the world tour was planned to be Christmas in Kenya. As you know, a site in Kenya has just been attacked. Then again, there's a chance that New York could be attacked again. There's no certainty that I'd be safer in New York or in Kenya. Kenya was last attacked in 1998. I felt that the country deserves my tourism dollars (a substantial part of its economy), and that its citizens shouldn't suffer for the actions of a few. There was no insurance available for terrorism, so I stand to lose my entire trip expenses. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Nov 28 20:36:39 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:36:39 -0600 Subject: "I'm From Missouri"--1897; Congratulations to Barry Popik Message-ID: >At 10:26 AM -0500 11/28/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I'll type the article in full that I found Monday in the Library of >Congress, using WASHINGTON POST full text. > It is a year earlier than the 1898 Trans-Mississippi Exposition in Omaha, >which had the slogan on buttons. It's also a year earlier than the song (by >NY songwriters). [snip] ******* Congratulations to Barry for his discovery of the 1897 attestations of "I'm from Missouri, you've got to show me." He had already conclusively disproved the frequently-given etymology of the expression deriving from a speech given ca. 1900 by Missouri congressman Willard Vandiver at a Philadelphia banquet; Vandiver was there in connection with a visit by a congressional delegation to the city's naval yard. The exact date of that banquet speech hadn't been found until Barry discovered it: January 27, 1900. Meanwhile, Barry spotted several pre-1900 attestations of the expression, so any chance of Vandiver originating the expression is eliminated. At most, Vandiver helped popularize it. It is significant that the 1897 newspaper article with the "show-me" expression involves a mine. The likeliest story about the origin of the expression concerns an 1896 strike of miners in Leadville, Colorado, for which Missouri miners were brought in as strikebreakers. The mining techniques were a bit different in Colorado from those in (Southwest) Missouri, and the Missouri miners sometimes had to be shown the techniques. "He's from Missouri, you've got to show him" therefore began in reference to this need to be shown, and it quickly spread above-ground as an insult to the Missourians, given the hatred directed at them for their strike-breaking. When the expression reached Missouri, Missourians gave it their own spin (tough-minded skepticism), although it retained overtones of an insult for at least some time. Also, Barry is correct that the "show-me" material we've already printed in scattered fashion should be compiled and published. I'll see what I can do about this. Meanwhile, two selected references for this topic are: 1) Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen: "More on 'I'm From Missouri, You've Got To Show Me': William Vandiver's Jan. 27, 1900 Speech in Philadelphia And Use Of The Expression in Omaha, 1898," in _Studies in Slang, part VI_ (edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry A. Popik, (= Forum Anglicum, vol. 24), Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang Verlag, 1999; pp.105-128. 2) Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen: "Story Behind Missouri's Nickname 'The Show-Me State'." _Proceedings of the 19th International Congress of Onomastic Sciences_, held at Aberdeen, Scotland, August 4-11, 1996, edited by W.F.H. Nicolaisen, vol. 2, pp. 285-289. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri From harview at MONTANA.COM Fri Nov 29 04:36:30 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:36:30 -0700 Subject: Tarts (was Junk Food (1960); Senate Bean Soup (1943); Chicken a la King (1911) ) In-Reply-To: <148.36dbd16.2b150aa8@aol.com> Message-ID: O.T. - Might I suggest that those of you interested in the topic of 'tart lawyers' subscribe to the ezine at ? Named after the plaintiff in the McDonald's coffee case, this semi-regular mailing provides both flagrant examples of outrageous 'tartism' and thought-provoking discussions of cases that seem at first glance to be tarty but are not. The author maintains a list which debunks many of the urban-legend tart cases. Highly recommended. Scott Swanson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 05:28:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:28:17 EST Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid, Dog Food, Jelly Doughnut (food slang) Message-ID: PRETZELS From the clippings files in Temple University is this letter: A. R. Hofheinz 8330 Cottage Street Phila. 36, Penna. Mr. Theo Wilson Bulletin Staff Dear Sir: I have just read your very interesting article about the 90th Brithday of the Pretzel. I thought you might be interested to know that the first pretzel baked in Philadelphia was in 1837 by a man named Frederick Trefz at 703-705 New Market Street, in the Northern Liberties. "Old TImers" will, no doubt, remember that Bakery. I, myself, worked there from 1897 to 1900, for the successor to Mr. Trefz, whose name was Philip Becker. He took the bakery over in 1850. He told me several times that the said Mr. Trefz baked both soft and hard (or cracker pretzels) pretzels from the beginning. I also know that soft and hard petzels were baked in Reading in the 1850's by two men named Mayer. Originally pretzels were baked in the Southwestern part of Germany. I trust this little information may be of some interest to you. Yours truly, A. R. Hofheinz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DOUGHNUT DOLLY & JELLY DOUGHNUT Not in the RHHDAS. From the clippings files in Temple University, PHILADELPHIA EVENING BULLETIN, 8 January 1967: _Zoomies and Grunts Create_ _New GI Jargon in Vietnam_ Saigon, Jan. 7--(AP)--(...) Red Cross recreation girls are "doughnut dollies." The chief doughnut dolly at the 1st Infantry Division is "doughnut six" and her assistants have numbers from five to one. One slim girl is "doughnut one-half." A red-haired girl is "jelly doughnut." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DOG FOOD From the Temple University clippings files. The RHHDAS has 1945 for dog food ("food, esp. canned corned-beef hash, thought to resemble dog food"). From the (PHILADELPHIA) POST, 28 November 1940: _HERE'S SOME LIGHT_ _ON CAMP LINGO (...) By The Associated Press (...) _Dog Food_--Emergency rations, to be eaten "only after you've starved to death," cynics insist. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RED LEAD, SIDEARMS, SEA DUST, SEAWEED I used the LOC California newspaper index. From the SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, 15 June 1941, pg. 5, col. 4: _Slanguage_ _Army Camps_ _Developing a_ _Dictionary_ (...) "Snafu" means "situation normal, all fuddled up." (...) "Red Lead" is tomatoes, tomato sauce or ketchup. Cream and sugar or salt and pepper are "sidearms." Salt, alone, is "sea-dust." (...) Spinach is "seaweed." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ARMORED COW From the LOC's California newspaper index, under "slang." This excellent long article will have to be reprinted in full. It beats the RHHDAS by a few months on "armored cow," but it has a lot more. 1 June 1941, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, pg. H5, col. 7: _WILL CONNOLLY SAYS_ _SPORTS HELP TO_ _MAKE OUR TONGUE_ _MORE DESCRIPTIVE_ The draftees assigned to Camp Claiborne, in Louisiana, got out a glossary of slang terms to describe everyday things in army life, we read the other day in a United Press story. No doubt, the boys at Fort Ord and Camp McQuaide, in our State, know what the Louisiana lads are talking aoubt when they call canned milk an "armored cow," and the white fish a "sewer trout," but civilians are puzzled by the lingo without the aid of a dictionary of vulgarisms. The Louisiana lads call prunes "army strawberries"; chicken, "crow"; coffee, "battery acid"; hot cereals, "North Dakota rice"; foot inspection, a "kennel show"; insects, "motorized dandruff"; steel helmets, "Mae West bonnets," and machine guns, "Chicago atomizers." There may be regional variation in army slang, but all of it is good (illegible--ed.) American tongue, but as the soldier talk in the last World war vitalized the language, In California, for instance, salmon or bass is served to soldiers instead of whitefish common to the Midwest and the South, but we are sure the boys call it "sewer trout," as they do at Camp Claiborne. We don't know how sedate public speakers could open their mouths if it were not for the inventiveness of the younger generation in coining phrases. The draftees are all of the athletic age, and much of their breezy language is borrowed from the sports field. You bald-headed Congressman has to desert classic rhetoric and resort to sports language to put over his point when running for re-election. It's all well and good to flatter the intelligence of the electorate with Shakespearean quotations, but when it comes down to brass tacks the most polished orator will lapse into "saved by the bell," "below the belt," "out of bounds," "punch drunk," "goal-line stand," "stymied," "foul ball" and other expressions borrowed from sports, that his listeners understand him readily. Unless it be army life, no other activity on the American scene is a greater contributor to the elasticity of the mother tongue than sport. Sports has a jargon all its own, but eventually the esoteric expressions creep into the vocabulary of the average citizen and are accepted by the solemn compilers of the Oxford Dictionary. _BASEBALL'S EXPRESSIONS BEST_ Baseball and boxing, professional sports though they be, have a down-to-earth saltiness that is causing the stiff Anglo-Saxon to change so violently that H. L. Mencken's epic tome in the American Language, considered new when it was printed, is out of date and needs revision. Whenever yuou speak of "on the button" you are leaning on a prize-fight term. Whenever you say "just under the wire" you are borrowing from horse racing. Whenever you say "dubbed" in the sense of gumming up the works you are relying upon golf, and whenever you ask for "time out" to gather your thoughts you are sponging on basketball and football. Whenever you "warm up" for a "rally" you are doing what the tennis players do. Whenever you cheat a little and "beat the gun" you are commiting a sin sometimes done in track and field. Of all sports, we think that baseball has the most quaint and richest expressions. The young men at Camp Claiborner must have been bush baseball players in their civilian days, otherwise we cannot account for the sprightly imagination that provoked them to call army coffee "battery acid." The Readers' Digest, a condensed magazine which gives a page or two every month to cute expressions by Chistopher Morley, Somerset Maugham, Dorothy Parker and SInclair Lewis, ought to turn its attention to the way unlettered ball players say things. _JUST A FEW COMMON ONES_ In the ball players' lingo, a "banana stalk" is a bat with poor wood; a "barber" is a talkative teammate; a "contractor's back yard" is a rough field; a "boxcar town" is a jerkwater visited for an echibition; a "can of c orn" is a high, lazy fly; a "cigar box" is a small field' a "collision" is a college player; a "country fair" is a showoff (Hot Dog?--ed.); a "cup of coffee" is a short trial in the big leagues; a "Dick Smith" is a fellow who keeps to himself; an "eagle's claw" is a glove; a "clothesline" is a line drive through the infield; a "fireman" is a player who dresses fast (Not a relief pitcher?--ed); a "Gillette" is a ball thrown close to a batter's head; a "house dick" is a player who lives in the lobby; a "fishing trip" is swinging at an outside pitch; a "gulley jumper" is a train; a "mackerel" is a curve ball; "fish cakes" is low salary; a "Rubinoff" is a player who needs a haircut; a "Tissue Paper Tom" is an athlete easily hurt; "Tools of Ignorance" are the catcher's equipment; a "butterlfy" is a knuckle ball; a "Broadway" is a flashy dresser; a "cockeye" is a left-handed pitcher; a "cunnythumb" is a p[itcher who throws slow balls; a "drink" is a strikeout; a "pool table" is a smooth inflield, the opposite of a "contractor's back yard"; a "Yankee Doodle" is a weak hitter; a "yodeler" is a baseline coach; a "monkey suit" is a uniform; a "rabbit ears" is a player who hears everything said in the stands; a "Black Betsy" is a big dark-colored bat; a "Texas Leaguer" is the same as a "Sheeny Mike" or a "Japanese liner" or a "Leaping Lena" or a "blooper" or a "humpback" or a "banjo" meaning a cheap fly just beyond reach of the infielders. We could go on for four or five more paragraphs to pad this essay to a Sunday length with baseball terminology, but we think you get the idea. Not every ball player is literate in the academic sense, but all of them are articulate in that they think up the most charming was to convey ideas. Unconsciously, they are making the American language more graphic, just like the selectees at Camp Claiborne, who spoof condensed milk as "armored cow." Inelegant, but descriptive. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 06:11:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:11:33 EST Subject: Cosmoline, Punk, Red Lead, Sand, Slum (Army Slang, 1940) Message-ID: This list of 1940 is a year earlier than most of our WWII slang lists, such as Kendall (1941). It comes from the Temple University clippings files (military folder). From the (PHILADELPHIA) EVENING LEDGER, 20 July 1940: _Army Has Language_ _All Its Own,_ _From "Sand" to "Slum"_ "Pass the cosmoline and sand; I'm going to try to improve this slum." If you are among the youngsters who have applied for enlistment in the United States Army in the recruiting station in the Custom House, you will more than likely hear this expression at your first mess on Uncle Sam. What is really meant is, "Pass the butter and sugar. I'm going to try to improve this stew." But, soldiers, like other men in any socialized profession, like to use a language of their own. _Defines "Brass Hats"_ And what a colorful jargon it is! We are indebted to Colonel Frederick Schoenfeld, commanding officer of the recruiting station, for the following terms: "Brass hats"--staff officers. The Colonel would not say so, but the connotation of the term isn't always very complimentary, as in the case of the widely known controversy between the late "Billy" Mitchell and his superior officers. "High ball"--salute to a superior officer. "Guardhouse lawyer"--something like a sea lawyer, a man without authority who is always telling his fellows what their rights are and who usually is a trouble-maker. "Flying time" and "bunk fatigue"--sleeping period. "Jaw bone"--credit. It's one of the most well-used terms in the army and means doing a lot of talking to borrow anything from a cigarette to a dollar. "Sand"--sugar. "Red lead"--catsup. "Tin hat"--trench helmet. "Dodo" and "Kiwi"--men in the air corps who don't fly. "Grease monkey"--a mechanic. _Pass a Piece of "Punk"_ "Punk"--bread. "Butch" and "old man"--commanding officer. "Top kick"--first sergeant. "Gravel agitator" and "red leg"--artillerymen. "Scrambled eggs"--brass decorations on the cap visors of officers ranking as majors or better. "Shavetail"--second lieutenant. "Bobtail"--one how has been dishonorably discharged from the army. "Go over the hill"--to desert. "Gold fish"--canned salmon. "Bean day"--Wednesdays and Saturdays. "Dog robber"--a ranking officer's orderly. "Juice"--any liquid food. _Guess Who's Gertrude"_ "Gertrude"--an office clerk. "Pilll roller"--an elisted man in the medical department. "Slum"--principal article of food at a meal, usually used, however, to denote stew. "Pocket lettuce"--paper money. "Lower the boom"--to strike another person. "Slum burner"--the cook. "Hay burner"--a horse. "Chili bowl"--a haircut. "Half gone"--to be hungry. And many, many unprintable ones. In addition, each post or local detachment often coins slang terms of its own, which are not generally used in the army as a whole. _"Wounded" by "Cognac"_ A well-known one heard along the Philadelphia waterfront for many years was "Cognac shrapnel." It was coined by a well-known stevedoring official who died here recently. A veteran of the Spanish-American War and the Boxer Rebellion, this man has been wounded several times in the service of his country but had a comparatively safe job during the last war and used to like to kid his fellow officers who had similar duties. "Are you one of the boys who got cognac shrapnel during the last World War?" he often asked. It seems that the detachment lived in a very comfortable chateau in France and the famous French liquor was always plentiful; hence, the unusual "casualties," which were never listed on the record books. JOSEPH W. DRAGONETTI. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Nov 27 02:42:12 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:42:12 -0500 Subject: California research Message-ID: Tensing of lax vowel before {sh} common in our area (Appalachian Ohio) but stigmatized; fish, special, bush are the words stereotyped for this pronunciation as feesh, spacial, boosh _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Fri Nov 29 12:11:42 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 Subject: Warp speed Message-ID: "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, who used it and when? Thanks. Paul http://www.wordspy.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Nov 29 14:12:47 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:12:47 EST Subject: Warp speed Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/2002 7:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes: > Does anyone know if > "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, who > used it and when? THe OED's science fiction words Web site http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml shows nothing in print prior to 1979! However, "warp" is cited in 1936 and "space warp" in 1935. (I'm pretty sure 1979 can be antedated----I remember a letter in the Brass Tacks (letters to the editor) column in Analog Science Fiction, most likely while the original Star Trek series was on TV, which analyzed the values given for warp speed and said they were too small.) I once owned a book _The Making of Star Trek_ by one Stephen E. Whitfield which gives a fair amount of detail on how Gene Roddenberry came up with the various pieces that make up the Star Trek universe. "Warp speed" was one of the topics discussed, and I have a vague memory that Whitfield said, or implied, that Roddenberry invented the term. - Jim Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Nov 29 14:53:16 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:53:16 -0500 Subject: Warp speed In-Reply-To: <19d.cb2a9fc.2b18cfdf@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 09:12:47AM -0500, James A. Landau wrote: > In a message dated 11/29/2002 7:11:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes: > > > Does anyone know if > > "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek series and, if so, > who > > used it and when? > > THe OED's science fiction words Web site > > http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml > > shows nothing in print prior to 1979! However, "warp" is cited in 1936 and > "space warp" in 1935. > > (I'm pretty sure 1979 can be antedated----I remember a letter in the Brass > Tacks (letters to the editor) column in Analog Science Fiction, most likely > while the original Star Trek series was on TV, which analyzed the values > given for warp speed and said they were too small.) > > I once owned a book _The Making of Star Trek_ by one Stephen E. Whitfield > which gives a fair amount of detail on how Gene Roddenberry came up with the > various pieces that make up the Star Trek universe. "Warp speed" was one of > the topics discussed, and I have a vague memory that Whitfield said, or > implied, that Roddenberry invented the term. While I don't have the book handy, we did read through _Making of Star Trek_ and I think I recall that it only had _warp factor,_ not _warp speed._ We may have additional stuff that hasn't made it to the SF page, but I think that a lot of the early things we had were for these other forms, like _warp factor_ or _go to warp_ but not _warp speed_ itself. Jesse Sheidlower OED From tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 30 01:26:05 2002 From: tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM (christen stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:26:05 +0000 Subject: Word for Saddam Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 30 01:36:23 2002 From: tiggeriscool57 at HOTMAIL.COM (christen stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 01:36:23 +0000 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 02:05:15 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:05:15 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern /r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. Herb Stahlke -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of christen stevens Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a "worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? christen stevens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 02:15:24 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:15:24 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning "shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to Saddam rather than to his deeds. Herb Stahlke "Heiness" is one of the more interesting words I have heard to describe Saddam. It makes me wonder if anyone else has described him in that way. christen stevens ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 30 03:22:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: Nixon's Law -- WAY OFF-TOPIC In-Reply-To: <187.11d6a2c2.2b1784d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:40 AM -0500 11/28/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 11/27/2002 9:08:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >dcamp911 at juno.com writes: > >> the Earned Income Credit...is esentially Nixon's idea of the negative >> income tax > >Thank you for the information, which I was not aware of. > >I seriously doubt that Nixon dreamed up a "Negative Income Tax" on his own. >Rather, some economist or writer came up with the idea, and Nixon and/or some >of his advisors thought it was worth implementing. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, quite possibly. (Later a U.S. Senator from N. Y.) --Larry >It is also possible that >whoever promoted the idea of the current Earned Income Credit read the same >paper or whatever that Nixon did, or more likely a more recent rehash of the same paper. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Nov 30 03:41:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:41:47 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:15 PM -0500 11/29/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning >"shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 >hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were >a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is >a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to >Saddam rather than to his deeds. > Hasn't it been the case for some time that "heinous" has generalized to a universal slang term of deprecation? I just checked that intuition with RHHDAS and found an entry for the word, listed as "student" use and glossed as 'unpleasant, objectionable , unattractive, etc." Some sample cites: 1982 U. of Tenn. student: The party shouldn't be too heinous. 1984 Algeo Stud Buds: A person who wears unusual clothing or haqs an unusual hair style [is referred to as] HANOUS [sic]. 1986 Eble Campus Slang: Heinous--anything bad, ugly, or negative. Usually refers to female: "That girl you were with was really heinous" Other glosses include 'gross', 'disgusting', 'bogus', and applications range from people, clothing, and behaviors to fast food. I'm not sure what the person characterizing Saddam as "heinous" had in mind, possibly beyond "bad". The fact that spellings range from "hanous" to "heiness" suggests that maybe the link to the original more restrictive and formal adjective has been lost or severely weakened. Larry From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Nov 30 03:51:11 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:51:11 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? >> >christen stevens > ~~~~~~~~ I grew up saying "warsh rag" in E Nebraska, but I'm not sure that others around there did. I do think both my parents (one b. N Ohio, the other St Louis) did. At some point I noticed that other people said "wash cloth" or "face cloth." I'm pretty sure "warsh" or "worsh" & "Warshington" were the common pronunciations among the kids I knew. A. Murie From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Nov 30 04:34:20 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:34:20 -0500 Subject: Word for Saddam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At least one of the uses that turned up in the Google search clearly meant "anus". Generalization of h-deletion? I wasn't aware of the student use of the word. Herb At 9:15 PM -0500 11/29/02, Herbert Stahlke wrote: >This is the first time I've seen that spelling for "heinous", meaning >"shockingly evil or wicked". I did a Google search on it and got about 170 >hits, most of which were misspellings of "highness" and a few of which were >a surname. Usually "heinous" is applied to acts, not people, as in "Rape is >a heinous crime." I too have been interested by applications of the word to >Saddam rather than to his deeds. > Hasn't it been the case for some time that "heinous" has generalized to a universal slang term of deprecation? I just checked that intuition with RHHDAS and found an entry for the word, listed as "student" use and glossed as 'unpleasant, objectionable , unattractive, etc." Some sample cites: 1982 U. of Tenn. student: The party shouldn't be too heinous. 1984 Algeo Stud Buds: A person who wears unusual clothing or haqs an unusual hair style [is referred to as] HANOUS [sic]. 1986 Eble Campus Slang: Heinous--anything bad, ugly, or negative. Usually refers to female: "That girl you were with was really heinous" Other glosses include 'gross', 'disgusting', 'bogus', and applications range from people, clothing, and behaviors to fast food. I'm not sure what the person characterizing Saddam as "heinous" had in mind, possibly beyond "bad". The fact that spellings range from "hanous" to "heiness" suggests that maybe the link to the original more restrictive and formal adjective has been lost or severely weakened. Larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Nov 30 06:03:12 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:03:12 -0600 Subject: "Warp speed" In-Reply-To: <20021130050022.7AC88503E@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 > From: Paul McFedries > Subject: Warp speed > > "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast > speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does > anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek > series and, if so, who used it and when? The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (John Clute and Peter Nicholls, ed.; St. Martin's Griffin, NY, 1995) has an entry for Space Warp (p. 1142-1143). "The term (along with 'hyperspace') may have been first used by John W. Campbell Jr. in _Islands in Space_ 1931 amazing stories quarterly; 1957)." Further on: "Space warp has become such a cliche in sf that it allows endless variants. One of the best known is the 'warp factor' used in Star Trek as a measure of velocity. This is illogical on all levels." Which raises the possibility that "warp speed" was _not_ used in Star Trek. (A quick look through the entry for Star Trek doesn't show anything helpful.) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Nov 30 15:24:22 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:24:22 -0500 Subject: "Warp speed" In-Reply-To: <3DE80040.27542.5CE5A8@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:03 AM 11/30/2002 -0600, you wrote: > > > > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:11:42 -0500 > > From: Paul McFedries > > Subject: Warp speed > > > > "Warp speed" has become a common synonym for "an extremely fast > > speed," and is used all the time without reference to Star Trek. Does > > anyone know if "warp speed" was used prior to the original Star Trek > > series and, if so, who used it and when? > >The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction (John Clute and Peter Nicholls, >ed.; St. Martin's Griffin, NY, 1995) has an entry for Space Warp (p. >1142-1143). "The term (along with 'hyperspace') may have been first >used by John W. Campbell Jr. in _Islands in Space_ 1931 amazing >stories quarterly; 1957)." > >Further on: "Space warp has become such a cliche in sf that it >allows endless variants. One of the best known is the 'warp factor' >used in Star Trek as a measure of velocity. This is illogical on all >levels." Which raises the possibility that "warp speed" was _not_ >used in Star Trek. (A quick look through the entry for Star Trek >doesn't show anything helpful.) Well, just last night I happened to catch a rerun of an early "Star Trek" show, and "warp speed" was used at least twice. Captain Kirk told whoever to "bring it up to warp speed," or words to that effect. From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Nov 30 15:35:25 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 10:35:25 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the computer). BTW, in Minnesota in my youth, and perhaps elsewhere as well, "wash rag" was the commoners' term (and in my home), while "wash cloth" was city folks' term. At 09:05 PM 11/29/2002 -0500, you wrote: >One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of >the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, >the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but >the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. >This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly >constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even >more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern >/r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as >r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that >perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that >they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. > >Herb Stahlke > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >christen stevens > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag > > > My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? > > christen stevens > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From patty at CRUZIO.COM Sat Nov 30 16:34:48 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 08:34:48 -0800 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021130102533.00abe268@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: My mom's whole side of the family definitely said 'worsh rag', born & raised in Minneapolis. My younger brother picked this up from my mom (we were born & raised in Calif.). I remember having a big argument one time over 'George Worshington'. He was about 7 or so, was *really* upset over being corrected by me :} Patty At 10:35 AM 11/30/02 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to >have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still >have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In >fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western >PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio >they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the >computer). > >BTW, in Minnesota in my youth, and perhaps elsewhere as well, "wash rag" >was the commoners' term (and in my home), while "wash cloth" was city >folks' term. > >At 09:05 PM 11/29/2002 -0500, you wrote: >>One possible explanation of "worsh" for "wash" is articulatory. In parts of >>the country that distinguish "cot" and "caught", which includes Eastern Ky, >>the vowel of "caught" is sometimes not open /o/, as in Br. Eng. "hot", but >>the low back rounded vowel represented by IPA lower case inverted script a. >>This vowel, which I also have, coming from SE Michigan, involves a slightly >>constricted pharynx (throat cavity). If you constrict the pharynx even >>more, the effect is very much like that of retroflexion, as in Midwestern >>/r/. The perception of a vowel spelled or for "warsh/worsh" as >>r-colored results from the pharyngeal constriction. I suspect that that >>perception might also lead speakers to emphasize such an r-coloring so that >>they have a phonemic /r/ in such words. >> >>Herb Stahlke >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of >>christen stevens >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:36 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag >> >> >> My mother has always referred to a small towel or face cloth as a wash >>cloth. However, all of my family raised in Eastern Ky refers to it as a >>"worsh cloth". Does anyone know where this term originated or how "wash" >>was changed to "worsh" in that part of the country? >> >> christen stevens >> >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-- >> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET Sat Nov 30 17:04:15 2002 From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:04:15 -0800 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021130083205.023e4a00@mail.cruzio.com> Message-ID: are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional) meaning? cheers - Vida. ============ TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics. A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the charge. http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6 78427.story?coll=la% From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Nov 30 17:30:13 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:30:13 -0800 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then > eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or > additional) > meaning? One that instantly springs to mind is "anime." It was imported into Japanese from the English "animation" and spat back out as "anime," denoting a distinctive Japanese style of animation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Nov 30 18:09:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 13:09:01 -0500 Subject: I'm From Missouri (2 May 1897); Hoggie (19 March 1944) Message-ID: Greetings from another trip to Philadelphia...I just realized that I left off Dave Wilton and Gerald Cohen from that short list of lexicographers on ADS-L. You always leave off the obvious. ------------------------------------------------------------- I'M FROM MISSOURI This was the purpose of my mini-trip today. Also, I can't get any sleep if I'm not on a bus. From the PHILADELPHIA TIMES, 2 May 1897, pg. 13, col. 7: _HE HAD NEVER_ _SEEN A TUNNEL_ _A MISSOURIAN'S BIG SCARE IN THE_ _MOUNTAINS._ >From a Correspondent of THE TIMES. COLORADO SPRINGS, April 26. "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me!" (The rest is the same as the WASHINGTON POST story. I'll check out the DENVER POST tomorrow in Columbia University--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------- HOGGIE The following is the first of similar ads that ran every week. From the SOUTH PHILADELPHIA AMERICAN, 19 March 1944, pg. 6, col. 2: Get Your Italian Hoggie At _AL DE PALMA'S_ S. E. Cor. 20th & Mifflin St. "Al Is The Man Who Made The Biggest Hoggie In The World" (So it's "hoggie," as in "hog"?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------- STROMBOLI I looked in the telephone directories up to 1960. I looked under "Pizza" and "Restaurants" and "Sandwiches." There were plenty of ads for Italian places. No "stromboli"! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 30 19:19:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 14:19:06 -0500 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the Japanese language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has happened since the beginning of language and the migration and intermingling of language speakers! The process isn't as sneaky as 'infiltrating' makes it sound; it's called "borrowing," and once the new words have settled into the borrowing language, they're called "loan words," that is, until they become so familiar that most people no longer realize they came from somewhere else. The perceived "threat" is just that--a groundless fear that no one can do anything about anyway. English is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a history of the English language if you can! At 09:04 AM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: >are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then >eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional) >meaning? > >cheers - Vida. > >============ > >TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport >immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are >locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their >wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics. > >A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed >of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the >flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the >charge. > >http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6 >78427.story?coll=la% From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Nov 30 21:22:47 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:22:47 -0500 Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English .... Message-ID: Beverly Flanigan writes: > English is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a >history of >the English language if you can! ~~~~~~~~ "Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar." -- Eddy Peters This sig line has been appearing on posts to a couple of other lists I get. A. Murie From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Nov 30 21:52:35 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:52:35 EST Subject: A smiley to appear in court! Message-ID: Currently there is an investigation and some suits filed against CSFB (Credit Suisse First Boston), charging that CSFB has been playing games with its analyst's reports. The merits of the case are not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that what appears to be key evidence is in the form of internal e-mails. Specifically, the following e-mail was cited in news reports Kiggen's e-mail conveys discomfort with the move. He said he'd keep the ''hold'' rating unless he heard more bad news from Yahoo that evening, ''not that the [conference] call wasn't scary enough.'' Further, Kiggen noted that if one of Credit Suisse's rivals won Yahoo's business in the future, ''We obviously will have missed an opportunity to raise firm's research profile and credibility; but I'm sure that won't happen.'' The note was ended with the online shorthand for a wink, a semicolon followed by a closed parenthesis. quoted at URL http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/331/business/E_mails_hint_of_CSFB_conflict-. shtml from an article by Beth Healy and Scott Bernard Nelson, Globe Staff, 11/27/2002, reprinted in at least one other newspaper (either the Philadelphia Inquirer or the Atlantic City Press, I failed to make a clipping and had to search on-line for the quote). In this particular e-mail, the wink smiley is an important part of the sentence, in that it obviously modifies or adds to what Mr. Kiggen is saying. Imagine this case going to court, and Mr. Kiggen's e-mail being introduced as a key piece of evidence. In that case the poor jurypeople are going to have to make hair-splitting determinations of just what significance is added to that one sentence by the presence of the smiley. Don't laugh. The guilty verdict in the Arthur Anderson case was reached by the jury's parsing of a similarly obscure statement by someone at Anderson. Sort of makes you wish President Clinton were practicing law. He'd be right at home convincing a jury of the meaning of that little smiley! - Jim Landau P.S. I was under the impression that the punctuation symbol ")" was a "close parenthesis", not a "closed parenthesis". From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Nov 30 22:48:43 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:48:43 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021130102533.00abe268@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: #Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to #have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still #have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In #fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western #PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio #they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the #computer). "<> inverted script a"? As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/" -- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel -- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's scary. Am I misunderstanding your post? -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Nov 30 23:31:34 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:31:34 -0500 Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:48 PM 11/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >#Same here in southeastern Ohio--but I've always considered British 'hot' to >#have not the full open /o/ (which I as a Minnesotan of a certain age still >#have in 'caught') but instead the "inverted script a" you describe. In >#fact, 'cot' and 'caught' do merge here in SE Ohio (as they do in western >#PA), but at that intermediate inverted script a point. In central Ohio >#they merge at low back unrounded /a/ (I can't do the script /a/ on the >#computer). > >"<> inverted script a"? > >As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/" >-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel >-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And >that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's >scary. > >Am I misunderstanding your post? > >-- Mark A. Mandel Yes, you are. I mean that the 'inverted script a' is "intermediate" between low back unrounded 'regular script a' and low-mid back rounded open /O/ or 'turned c'. The merger here (and in western PA and eastern Ontario) is slightly more rounded than that in central Ohio and westwards, but not as high or round as the classic Northern open /O/ in 'caught'. Kurath and McDavid described the inverted script a of this region in 1961, as did Kenyon earlier, and several others have done so since (see my article in LVC, vol. 12 (2000)).