From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 01:28:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:28:17 EDT Subject: Google blips Message-ID: >From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": 'Google blips': Search not always right PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has many levels, and apparently some people see software giant Microsoft Corp. at its core. At least that's according to the search engine Google, which when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather humorous result, considering Google's reputation for producing the most accurate search results. Microsoft's corporate rivals should not be so quick to chuckle, however. The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time Warner is the parent company of CNN.) But how does Microsoft beat a site called Hell.com for top ranking in the "go to hell" category, on a search engine that made a reputation putting the most relevant results first? Microsoft's detractors The easiest answer is that Microsoft has a lot of enemies. Although Google offered no explanation on the "go to hell" matter, Google's site is famous for its "link analysis" method of producing search results. When users enter a word or term, they get back not just those Web sites containing that term but other sites as well, that are linked to those that contain the word or phrase, in question. Microsoft's home page, in other words, may not contain the phrase "go to hell" anywhere, but there are apparently a lot of other sites out there that mention Microsoft (or AOL, or Disney) and going to hell in the same context. "I call them Google blips," said Danny Sullivan, editor of SearchEngineWatch, an industry newsletter. "These are the things that happen when Web sites start linking to other Web sites. It just means that there are probably a lot of people who don't like Microsoft, and that is not a surprise." Sullivan has tracked the search engine industry for years and has multiple examples of the way links between different Web sites have produced misleading search results. (...) From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Oct 1 01:51:12 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:51:12 -0500 Subject: automaticity Message-ID: Colin Powell used this word on the Jim Lehrer news hour tonight, referring to the UN resolution the Bush administration wants passed. Bush wants military action to kick in automatically if Iraq makes any hedges WRT weapons inspectors, and Powell specifically stated that this was the word they had been using in discussions. -- - Greg http://www.pulliam.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 02:37:03 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:37:03 -0700 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't any such results for go to hell either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has changed something or something else is going on... Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has > many levels, and apparently some people see software giant > Microsoft Corp. at its core. > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which > when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather > humorous result, considering Google's reputation for > producing the most accurate search results. > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America > Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among > the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time > Warner is the parent company of CNN.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 1 02:47:42 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:47:42 -0500 Subject: Cucoloris Message-ID: German has a very similar word, albeit with a different meaning: KOKOLORES, KOKOLORUS, masc. (no plural): (a) rubbish, nonsense, twaddle, (b) palaver, fuss; e.g. "mach doch nicht solchen Kokolores don't make such a fuss. (c) = German "Kram", in: den ganzen Kokolores/all den Kokolores einpacken to pack in the whole caboodle/shebang. Might the U.S./British term denoting "screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in front of the luminaire" have derived from the German word? Perhaps (and yes, yes, I know this is speculating) a German referred to a pile of the screens as Kokolores, intending the equivalent of "Kram" (stuff, junk, things), which was then interpreted by a non-German speaker as a technical term for these screens. Gerald Cohen >At 10:07 AM +0100 9/30/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >While looking into the film and stage lighting term 'gobo' for kinds >of screen used to generate patterns of light and shadow on the set, I >came across "cucoloris" (variously spelt) as a common term for some >sorts - screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in >front of the luminaire. The word is in no dictionary that I've been >able to trace, nor is there any indication of its origin. One >possibility might be the classical Latin "cucullus" for a hood or >cowl, which it is just possible some early photographer might have >borrowed. Does anybody have any evidence at all for this word that >might throw light (ahem) on where it comes from? > >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: >Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 03:02:32 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:02:32 -0400 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and >70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard >it all the time. >Fritz Juengling > >>>> wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM 09/30/02 03:54PM >>> >Anyone--Joan?--familiar with "davano" as a short form of "davenport" in >regional American speech? ~~~~~~ We used "sofa," " davenport" & "daveno" interchangeably in Nebraska in the 30s. Some local people also used "chesterfield." A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 03:23:53 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:23:53 -0700 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest Gump is present for many great historical events. I've never heard this used before. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 03:59:29 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:59:29 -0400 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: <000701c268f3$70876be0$13b8fa43@Office> Message-ID: I went through this one a few years ago with friends on another mailing list. It's dependent not only on the quotes but the kind of quotes, single or double. With the quotes, you're googling for the phrase; without them, you're googling for go AND to AND hell, so the order and proximity of the words are irrelevant. Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I don't any such results for > >go to hell > >either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has changed something >or something else is going on... > >Benjamin Barrett >Live from Tukwila > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has > > many levels, and apparently some people see software giant > > Microsoft Corp. at its core. > > > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which > > when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > > home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather > > humorous result, considering Google's reputation for > > producing the most accurate search results. > > > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America > > Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among > > the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time > > Warner is the parent company of CNN.) -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 05:25:48 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:25:48 -0700 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930235800.00ac3258@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: Okay, I ran it again as 'go to hell' Still none of those companies in the top 10 hits... Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alice Faber > > I went through this one a few years ago with friends on > another mailing list. It's dependent not only on the quotes > but the kind of quotes, single or double. With the quotes, > you're googling for the phrase; without them, you're googling > for go AND to AND hell, so the order and proximity of the > words are irrelevant. > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >I don't any such results for > > > >go to hell > > > >either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has > changed something > >or something else is going on... > > > >Benjamin Barrett > >Live from Tukwila > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > > Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > > > > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > > > > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell > has many > > > levels, and apparently some people see software giant Microsoft > > > Corp. at its core. > > > > > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which when > > > given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > home page of > > > the world's largest software maker -- a rather humorous result, > > > considering Google's reputation for producing the most accurate > > > search results. > > > > > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America Online > > > division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among the top five > > > results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time Warner is > the parent > > > company of CNN.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 05:39:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 01:39:04 EDT Subject: Misery Mile; Cokeskills; Southport; Jamband; Waffle Fries; Cemitas Message-ID: A few terms from this week's NEW YORK PRESS and the VILLAGE VOICE. MISERY MILE--From NEW YORK PRESS, September 25-October 1, 2002, pg. 17, "Best Place To Get Depressed: 'Misery Mile' (The Battery to Canal Street)." The article states that Jimmy Breslin gave it this term. Breslin's column, "A Grim Walking Tour of City's Misery Mile," was in NEWSDAY, 18 July 2002. The Mile has a Holocaust Memorial, a Vietnam Memorial, and Irish Famine Memorial, a WWII Memorial, and THEN came September 11th. COKESKILLS--The Catskills for people who do coke, in NEW YORK PRESS, pg. 25. There are no other Google hits. SOUTHPORT--SOUTH of PORT Authority. It's no SOHO (SOuth of HOuston), and is not used at all at this point. From NEW YORK PRESS, pg. 11. JAMBAND--From the VILLAGE VOICE, September 25-October 1, 2002, "JAMMED FOR ALL TIME," pg. 45: "Jam band" began as a simple jazz phrase describing musicians who got together to improvise, free from the rules of everyday gigs. Today it refers to about 200 artists. Many are acutely aware of a bizarre backlash against the term and--like every emo and hair metal and teenpop act that ever resented its "File Under" destiny--some have been reluctant to cop to it. "Please write about us in _Relix_ and on Jambands.com, and please have us on your radio shoe _Jam Nation_," mocks Jambands.com writer Jeff Waful. "But don't call us a jamband." WAFFLE FRIES--The NEW YORK PRESS "Best of New York" issue, EATS & DRINKS, states that Sam's Famous Waterfront Ale House, 540 2nd Avenue (30th Street), makes great "waffle fries." Trademark records for "waffle fries" shows that Lamb-Weston Inc. used the term from 6 September 1983. Chik-fil-A has used "waffle potato fries" from August 1984. There are 2,220 Google hits for "waffle fries." CEMITAS--Only 12 Google hits (with the word "sandwich" added), but keep it in mind, anyway. From the VILLAGE VOICE, pg. 76: In addition to tacos and tortas in 20 permutations, former pizza parlor _TACO AZTECA_ (75 Victory Boulevard, Staten Island, 718-273-6404) whips up big round sandwiches called cemitas. Hailing from Puebla and Tlaxcala in central Mexico, they're made with pan de pulque, a sweet egg bread dotted with sesame seeds and leavened with cactus beer. Though they can be made with chicken or pork, I prefer milanesa--a pounded, crumbed, deep-fried beefsteak wadded on the bun and topped with white cheese, avocado, cilantro, onions, and red chiles that have the texture and sweetness of sun-dried tomatoes. OFF TOPIC (continued): TODAY'S PARKING TICKET INCREASE As stated, NYC many parking tickets will increase from $55 to $105 today. About a week ago, the Associated Press ran an article about it. A spokesman from the NYC Department of Finance (my employer) stated that most fines hadn't been increased since 1975. This is a lie. AP has no ombudsman, so I wrote much earlier today to feedback at ap.org. I got no response. I wrote to info at ap.org and also got no response. If the Associated Press wins a New York Post Liberty Medal, gets a street named after it in Thunder Bay, and wins a humanitarian award, I'm jumping off a roof right now. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 1 08:53:05 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 04:53:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: A new word -- at least to me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>So my sister-in-law is telling us about their new kitten and say's "He's >>mizing about in Jack's beard." Hmmmm, mizing. Vas iz das, I >>ask. Eventually I learn that "mizing" (to mize, mize, mized) is an >>Oklahoma (possibly mountain William Oklahoma) word meaning to search in a >>small, crowded place for goodies. One might mize in a purse, but not on >>a table. >>Have you ever heard of this? None of our dictionaries contain it. Superficially this would appear to be the back-formed verb corresponding to "miser", given by OED et al. as "obsolete". DARE does show two examples from recent decades however, with spelling "mize", from 1970 Tennessee and 1991 "Appalachia" IIRC. The sense appears different in DARE, with "mize" more or less = "hoard". But I think the semantic shift or whatever might look less unbelievable if one takes "mize" = "behave like a miser" = "scrabble"/"scrounge", and this is in line with early material in OED, IIRC. I've never encountered it myself. -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Oct 1 12:28:33 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:28:33 +0100 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 13:12:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:12:07 EDT Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: On another mailing list Professor Carlo Minnaja of the University of Padua wrote >Italian educated people can read French easily nearly without studying it, >while even after 10 years of English school courses they can have some >problems in understanding concise newspapers' titles..... I replied t > As for "concise newspapers' titles", they can and do baffle native speakers of > English. For example "Red Tape Holds Up Bridge". > Entire books have been published listing such newspaper headlines that are > so ambiguous that they are funny. I give you one example which will give you > grounds to ponder on how we punish criminals in the USA: > "Drunk Gets Two Weeks In Violin Case" Professor Minnaja responded >A short bibliography (no more than two or three titles) would be appreciated. > > "Drunk Gets Two Weeks In Violin Case" > > Is violine case a jail? I would guess this meaning: > a person who drank too much was sentenced to serve two weeks in a jail > > Is there another hidden meaning? I have seen books of goofy headlines (and I have myself submitted a few to the Columbia Journalism Review) but I have no bibliography available. Can anyone supply Professor Minnaja with book titles? - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 13:24:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:24:08 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" > "Hang a Roscoe" Larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 1 13:37:03 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:37:03 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" "hang a Ralph". Jesse Sheidlower From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:10:57 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:10:57 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Exactly. 1950s too. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. > Fritz Juengling > > >>> wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM 09/30/02 03:54PM >>> > Anyone--Joan?--familiar with "davano" as a short form of "davenport" in > regional American speech? (Sorry, I only own volume 1 of DARE.) I'm doing > some work for a British publisher and remembered my grandmother's "davano" > when I was correcting their entry for "davenport." She was born in 1911, in > Nebraska, of Pennsylvania Dutch stock, and moved to Montana in her > twenties. This is the same woman who called parmesan '/par MEE zhun/ > cheese', so I'd like to know if "davano" is just another example of her idolect. > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:18:19 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:18:19 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this > list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' > (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard > the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" I heard "hang a louie" and "hang a rooie" in the early 1970s from a Long Island native. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:58:35 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:58:35 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think "Parmesian" cheese must have been fairly widespread (oh all right--widely sprinkled). I remember my father expressing annoyance at the pronunciation after we had bought some at a store (Southern California, late 40s or early 50s). Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." The first time I heard "parmeZHAN" was when I ordered Veal Parmigiano in a restaurant and had the waitress correct me (probably mid- to late 50s, in Oregon). Peter Mc. --On Monday, September 30, 2002 6:37 PM -0500 Beth Simon wrote: > in des moines iowa, it was parMEzian cheese. so much so, that when i > first heard PARmezahn, i inwardly snooted my nose at the speakers. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Oct 1 16:02:46 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:02:46 -0700 Subject: automaticity Message-ID: Greg Pulliam wrote: > > Colin Powell used this word on the Jim Lehrer news hour tonight, > referring to the UN resolution the Bush administration wants passed. > Bush wants military action to kick in automatically if Iraq makes any > hedges WRT weapons inspectors, and Powell specifically stated that > this was the word they had been using in discussions. au'to·mat'i·cal·ly adv. au'to·ma·tic'i·ty (-m?-tis'i-te) n. Found as part of the definition for "automatic" in The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Anyone else use Atomica ? With a simple right click ... Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:08:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:08:12 -0700 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a discussion of these terms--a rather lengthy one, as I recall--on this list a few years ago, so it's probably in the archives. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 11:18 AM -0400 Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > >> Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >> list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >> (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >> the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" > > I heard "hang a louie" and "hang a rooie" in the early 1970s from a Long > Island native. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:46:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:46:03 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <173186.1033462714@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: At 8:58 AM -0700 10/1/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I think "Parmesian" cheese must have been fairly widespread (oh all >right--widely sprinkled). I remember my father expressing annoyance at the >pronunciation after we had bought some at a store (Southern California, >late 40s or early 50s). Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." > >The first time I heard "parmeZHAN" was when I ordered Veal Parmigiano in a >restaurant and had the waitress correct me (probably mid- to late 50s, in >Oregon). > The invented "parmeZHAN" pronunciation was standard in New York in the 50s as well. God knows why, since there were enough Italians around, but no one in our neighborhood (Washington Heights, or later Long Beach, LI) called it veal or eggplant "parmigiano" or even "parmesan". I could never figure out the reference either, since the mozzarella always seemed so much more prominent than the parmesan in the recipe, as cheeses go. Oh, and on another thread: I should mention that my response of "Hang a roscoe" as the counterpart of "Hang a louie" was not NY-based (although I am), but from mid-60's California, which is when I first became familiar with the opposition. Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:47:56 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:47:56 -0700 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: like jesse sheidlower, i have "hang a Ralph" as the counterpart to "hang a Louie" - from my college days, 40-44 years ago. i recall first hearing these expressions from my college roommate from sophomore to senior years. for what it's worth, he grew up in louisville, kentucky. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), and the college was princeton From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:50:27 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:50:27 -0400 Subject: brass monkeys & their travails Message-ID: I happened upon the following discussion on the Naval Histoical Center website (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq107.htm) It supports Michael Quinion's skeptical reply to the question posted recently by James Smith. "The first recorded use of the term "brass monkey" appears to dates to 1857 when it was used in an apparently vulgar context by C.A. Abbey in his book Before the Mast, where on page 108 it says "It would freeze the tail off a brass monkey." [Source: Lighter, J.E. ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 262.] "It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17. ""Brass monkey" is also the nickname for the Cunard Line's house flag which depicts a gold lion rampant on a red field. [Source: Rogers, John. Origins of Sea Terms. (Mystic CT: Mystic Seaport Museum, 1984): 23.] " GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:06:37 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:06:37 -0400 Subject: on hanging Message-ID: A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what I'd have thought. L From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:10:08 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:10:08 -0700 Subject: Roscoe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Oh, and on another thread: I should mention that my response of > "Hang a roscoe" as the counterpart of "Hang a louie" was not NY-based > (although I am), but from mid-60's California, which is when I first > became familiar with the opposition. > > Larry Agreed. Ditto roscoe from northern Illinois (but not Chicago) from the '50s. Maybe among the hoods in the city "hang a roscoe" meant 'suspend a revolver from the car's mirror.' PR From traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR Tue Oct 1 17:08:06 2002 From: traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR (Catherine Merlen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:08:06 +0100 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: le 1/10/02 18:06, Laurence Horn à laurence.horn at YALE.EDU a écrit : > A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a > Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from > whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what > I'd have thought. > > L Hello, let's have a google fight !!! at http://www.googlefight.com/index.html whenever you need to check how prevailing an expression is over another. Apologies if this has already been posted here. Catherine From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 17:30:30 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:30:30 EDT Subject: parMEzian cheese Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." Steve Boatti From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:37:35 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:37:35 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <200210011647.g91GluJ15597@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >I also (Louisville ) had hang a Ralph. >like jesse sheidlower, i have "hang a Ralph" as the counterpart >to "hang a Louie" - from my college days, 40-44 years ago. i >recall first hearing these expressions from my college roommate >from sophomore to senior years. for what it's worth, he grew >up in louisville, kentucky. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), and the college was princeton -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 1 15:15:10 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:15:10 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: >Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" The book says "hang a Ralph". In my own experience IIRC the person who says "hang a Louie" usually says "hang a right". Not very interesting. -- Doug Wilson From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:00:49 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:00:49 -0400 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English In-Reply-To: <3d.2534f087.2acaf927@aol.com> Message-ID: I know of two that the Columbia Journalism Review has published: "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim" and your "Red Tape Holds Up New Bridge". Jay Leno put one out recently too, but I don't remember what it's called. These all have more than just headlines. Ben > > I have seen books of goofy headlines (and I have myself submitted a few to > the Columbia Journalism Review) but I have no bibliography available. Can > anyone supply Professor Minnaja with book titles? > > - Jim Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:15:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:15:08 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >le 1/10/02 18:06, Laurence Horn à laurence.horn at YALE.EDU a écrit : > >> A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >> Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >> whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >> I'd have thought. >> >> L > >Hello, >let's have a google fight !!! at http://www.googlefight.com/index.html >whenever you need to check how prevailing an expression is over another. >Apologies if this has already been posted here. > >Catherine The problem is that when I tried this, it missed the two clear hits on "hang a Roscoe" that turned up on a regular google search. If I had just done the googlefight, I might have really thought I was hallucinating with my memory of Roscoes d'antan, but there they were, both of them, on the search. So careful with those fights. (Did I really say "quite low than what I'd have thought"? I guess I forgot to revise the earlier part of my sentence when I changed the later part.) Larry From simon at IPFW.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:51:04 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:51:04 -0500 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel Message-ID: Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. beth >>> Ittaob at AOL.COM 10/01/02 12:31 PM >>> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." Steve Boatti From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:57:30 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:57:30 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 1:30 PM -0400 Steve Boatti wrote: > I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that > way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a > conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." But it was either ['parm at z@n] or [par'mi3 at n] , never [parm@'zan] in my experience. And at least standard Italian has an affricate rather than a fricative. Is there perhaps an Italian dialect that has a fricative corresponding to the standard affricate, and that could plausibly have furnished [parm@'3an]? Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:45:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:45:25 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty >clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice >the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. >beth Right; that's standard in New Haven Italian and Italo-English as well (aBEETS, muzzarELL, capigol), but what puzzles me is the de-affricatization on "parmigian-". Granted, it would be a least effort phenomenon, but how general is it? Can I expect "azhita" for "agita"? More relevantly, would someone (rather than cheese) who comes from Parma be called "un Parmi-ZHAN" rather than "un Parmigian(o)"? Or is only the cheese that results in the fricativization of the affricate? larry > >>>> Ittaob at AOL.COM 10/01/02 12:31 PM >>> >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >Steve Boatti From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 18:22:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:22:32 EDT Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 2:01:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Jay Leno > put one out recently too, but I don't remember what it's called. Do you mean Jay Leno, ed. _Jay Leno's Headlines: Book I, II, III : Real but Ridiculous Headlines from America's Newspapers_ 1992, ISBN 0517082381 ? - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 1 18:48:29 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:48:29 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <20021001133703.GB9220@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: # At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: #>Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this #>list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' #>(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard #>the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" # #"hang a Ralph". That's mine too. -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:41:23 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:41:23 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: >Please rememnber final weakly stressed vowel deletion in southern >Italian (and recall that the overwhelming percentage of Italian >immigrants in America come from Sicily and the south) . Therefore, >/par-me-ZHAN/ is what many native speakers would have said (and what >many non-Italian speakers would have heard). dIn Is >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 1 19:11:46 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:11:46 -0500 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: There's a small Missouri town named Clever. Some 15-20 years ago the police chief there was arrested, and the story in my town's local paper (Rolla Daily News) carried the headline "Clever Police Chief Arrested." I couldn't help thinking: "If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested?" But I suppose I was the only one in Rolla who was struck by the unintended ambiguity of the headline. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla (pronounced RAHluh) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 19:53:51 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:53:51 EDT Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 2:17:03 PM, simon at IPFW.EDU writes: << Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. beth >> And they should leave out these vowels, if the intent is to mimic speech patterns of Southern Italian immigrants. Most S. Italian dialects leave out such final vowels. Steve Boatti From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Oct 1 20:08:07 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:08:07 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky from Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to come from Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. She said it should be pronounced ParemZHAN. Quoting Steve Boatti : > In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter > Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound > more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, > pronounce > spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > > I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that > way > based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a > conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > > Steve Boatti > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 20:25:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:25:36 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <1033502887.3d9a00a7222f1@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: At 4:08 PM -0400 10/1/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: >I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky from >Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to come from >Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. I've never seen this spelling in cookbooks or on menus. How common is it? I've just encountered "parmigiano" and "parmesan". Or maybe "parmegiano". Never "parmesian". > She said it should be pronounced >ParemZHAN. (1) Parem-? Are you sure? (2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular lexical item? Is there a dessription of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift in Italian dialects? Larry > >Quoting Steve Boatti : > >> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: >> >> << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >> supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >> Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >> more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, >> pronounce >> spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> >> >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that >> way >> based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >> conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." >> >> Steve Boatti >> From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Oct 1 21:15:39 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:15:39 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So sorry I can not spell today. parmesan is what is should have said. But she pronounces it "parmezahn". Quoting Laurence Horn : > At 4:08 PM -0400 10/1/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: > >I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky > from > >Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to > come from > >Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. > > I've never seen this spelling in cookbooks or on menus. How common > is it? I've just encountered "parmigiano" and "parmesan". Or maybe > "parmegiano". Never "parmesian". > > > She said it should be pronounced > >ParemZHAN. > > (1) Parem-? Are you sure? > (2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How > widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular > lexical item? Is there a dessription of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift > in Italian dialects? > > Larry > > > > >Quoting Steve Boatti : > > > >> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > >> > >> << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > >> supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by > Peter > >> Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word > sound > >> more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, > >> pronounce > >> spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >> > >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it > that > >> way > >> based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, > a > >> conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >> > >> Steve Boatti > >> > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 1 21:50:18 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:50:18 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 skidoo"? It appears that the story is buried in the pre-1999 archives, at the moment unavailable. Does anyone remember? Well, Barry does, of course. There is a 100th anniversary display on the Flatiron building currently up at the N-Y Historical Society, and this has prompted an article in yesterday's NY Times (September 30), which included the following: "The building of the Flatiron was such a prolonged affair that historians still debate exactly when it opened. For doubters, Ms. Berman has a picture of the Flatiron sporting two signs announcing the building ready for occupancy Oct. 1, 1902. "There is also all that lore about the phrase "23 skiddoo," attributed to the fierce Flatiron winds that raised skirts and attracted the interest of passing gentlemen. Police officers there kept the gawkers moving along by saying "23 skiddoo," the equivalent of "scram." "Evidence to support this windy legend includes Library of Congress film footage from 1903 that shows Flatiron gusts, billowing skirts, male sidewalk superintendents and a flatfoot on the Flatiron beat." The Ms. Berman quoted is the author of a recent history of Madison Square and perhaps the curator of the N-YHS's exhibit. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pds at VISI.COM Tue Oct 1 22:17:05 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:17:05 -0500 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: I think you'll find answers to this one in the ADS-L Archives. I've heard both "Ralph" and "Ritchie" for right. And "U-ie" for U-turn. At 01:28 PM 10/1/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 1 22:23:17 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:23:17 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20021001171705.00b5be30@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Oct 1 22:26:13 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <001701c268f9$f8c54b20$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I had thought that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" because of the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual >acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of >low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when >others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having >contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest >Gump is present for many great historical events. > >I've never heard this used before. From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Oct 1 22:29:04 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:29:04 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm with you: in the Northwest, 1960s and 1970s: we said Roscoe. At 01:06 PM 10/1/02 -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >I'd have thought. > >L From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 1 22:28:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:28:54 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: My wife, from suburban Boston, says this. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Joanne M. Despres [mailto:jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Hang a Louie Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Oct 1 22:31:02 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:31:02 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport Message-ID: Fritz and all: > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. When I was growing up in Seattle in the 50's and early 60's, I used to hear "daveno" all the time, too. I think it kind of dropped out after that, or else all I heard was "davenport" or "sofa". I don't think "daveno" is used much any more. At least not around here. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 22:33:27 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:33:27 -0700 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182348.00a6eec0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Yes, the movie was specifically mentioned. Plus the sense was not so much foolish or stupid, but more having been a witness to great things without being a contributor. > Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I > had thought > that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" > because of > the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . > > > At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > >While having lunch with business associates today, one > referred to a mutual > >acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a > software executive of > >low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of > being present when > >others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having > >contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional > character Forrest > >Gump is present for many great historical events. > > > >I've never heard this used before. > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 22:35:48 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:35:48 -0400 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182348.00a6eec0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: >Please remember that there is a generation or two (and perhaps even >a side of the Atlantic which believes 'Forrest' is the Ur-form. dInIs dInIs >Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I had thought >that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" because of >the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . > >At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >>While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual >>acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of >>low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when >>others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having >>contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest >>Gump is present for many great historical events. >> >>I've never heard this used before. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 22:37:45 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:37:45 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not just your wife. If my driving experiences in Boston are typical, everybody bangs everything when behind the wheel. dInIs (who'd rather drive in Paris or even Athens) > My wife, from suburban Boston, says this. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joanne M. Despres [mailto:jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Hang a Louie > > >Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine >from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a >mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which >concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From P2052 at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 23:07:12 2002 From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:07:12 EDT Subject: automaticity Message-ID: I first heard the term in a Second Language Acquisition class I took approximately 15 years ago. It was used to refer to an immediate appropriate response to a verbal situation (as opposed to hesitation while trying to think of an appropriate response). If memory serves me right, when a person reaches that level ("automaticity"), then (s)he has acquired native or near-native competence (in that situation, at least). I didn't hear General Powell's speech, but I would assume that he used the term to indicate that same idea of immediacy--and appropriateness--when responding to a threat (whether direct or indirect) from Iraq, for hesitation in that case could make Sagan's hypothetical nuclear winter a grim reality. PAT From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 23:19:23 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:19:23 -0700 Subject: automaticity In-Reply-To: <135.1545c0cc.2acb84a0@aol.com> Message-ID: > I didn't hear General Powell's speech, but I would assume > that he used the > term to indicate that same idea of immediacy--and > appropriateness--when > responding to a threat (whether direct or indirect) from > Iraq, for hesitation > in that case could make Sagan's hypothetical nuclear winter a > grim reality. Powell was using in the context of whether there would be one UN resolution or two. The first option would be to issue one resolution that demands inspections and authorizes use of "all necessary means" if Iraq didn't comply. This resolution would have "automaticity." The other option would be to demand inspections. If Iraq didn't comply, the Security Council would meet again and decide an appropriate course of action. This option would not have "automaticity." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 23:35:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:35:32 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182816.00a683a0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: At 6:29 PM -0400 10/1/02, Wendalyn Nichols wrote: >I'm with you: in the Northwest, 1960s and 1970s: we said Roscoe. > >At 01:06 PM 10/1/02 -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >>A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >>Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >>whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >>I'd have thought. >> >>L West Coast vs. East Coast, perhaps? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 2 01:03:33 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:03:33 -0500 Subject: "23 skiddoo" Message-ID: I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. Gerald Cohen >At 5:50 PM -0400 10/1/02, George Thompson wrote: >What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 >skidoo"? It appears that the story is buried in the pre-1999 >archives, at the moment unavailable. Does anyone remember? Well, >Barry does, of course. > >There is a 100th anniversary display on the Flatiron building >currently up at the N-Y Historical Society, and this has prompted an >article in yesterday's NY Times (September 30), which included the >following: >"The building of the Flatiron was such a prolonged affair that >historians still debate exactly when it opened. For doubters, Ms. >Berman has a picture of the Flatiron sporting two signs announcing >the building ready for occupancy Oct. 1, 1902. >"There is also all that lore about the phrase "23 skiddoo," >attributed to the fierce Flatiron winds that raised skirts and >attracted the interest of passing gentlemen. Police officers there >kept the gawkers moving along by saying "23 skiddoo," the equivalent >of "scram." >"Evidence to support this windy legend includes Library of Congress >film footage from 1903 that shows Flatiron gusts, billowing skirts, >male sidewalk superintendents and a flatfoot on the Flatiron beat." > >The Ms. Berman quoted is the author of a recent history of Madison >Square and perhaps the curator of the N-YHS's exhibit. > From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET Wed Oct 2 03:39:21 2002 From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:39:21 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: In Boston we bang a left, bang a right, and, most commonly, bang a U-ee. (I don't vouch for the spelling of "U-ee.") Phil Cleary From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 04:54:49 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:54:49 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn: >(2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How >widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular >lexical item? Is there a description of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift >in Italian dialects? I don't think it's restricted to "parmesan". How do we pronounce "adagio"? How do the French pronounce it? If it was adopted into English from French, how "should" it be pronounced? If it was adopted directly from Italian, how "should" it be pronounced? Do most persons (even sophisticated ones) immediately know whether it was adopted proximately from Italian or from French? I would (perhaps erroneously?) assume "parmesan" to be French and use an Anglicized French pronunciation /parm at zan/; I would assume "parmigiano" to be Italian and use an Anglicized Italian pronunciation /parmIdZanow/. But does the typical US-an on the street have even my naive/primitive understanding of the distinction? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 05:00:29 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:00:29 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "bang" for "hang" occasionally, FWIW. As for what the right should be named ... here is a chance for some multiculturalism or ethnic diversity for sure. If the left is the English/French "Louie"/"Louis", then the right should be Spanish "Ruy" (= "rooie" as someone said). The U turn which I've heard as "U-ie" might be Japanese "Yui" perhaps. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 05:23:09 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:23:09 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to >putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided >at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as the original sense. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 11:12:20 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:12:20 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," In-Reply-To: <67efe567fa4e.67fa4e67efe5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: If you believe, as I do, that etymological explanations contained in the earliest known attestation should carry a lot of weight, then "23" in conjunction with "skidoo" seems to refer to the fact that ferries left from 23rd Street. See the 1906 citation in the OED. But perhaps Barry has earlier evidence. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 12:47:53 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:47:53 -0700 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002005514.04616540@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: .... >The U turn which I've > heard as "U-ie" might be > Japanese "Yui" perhaps. > > -- Doug Wilson I think it's American-English for "U"-ie ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 13:15:31 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:15:31 EDT Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 5:50:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 skidoo"? The following appears at URL http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/811.html It gives not only the extremely persistent Flatiron Building story but two others as well, and for dessert cites our favorite cartoonist, TAD I lifted the following word for word from the Word Detective: : The puzzle of "twenty-three skiddoo," which can mean "let's go," "get lost," "whoopee!," or a variety of other things, is one of the classic word-origin questions, and nearly every authority has at least one theory. : The "skiddoo" part is fairly easy to trace, and is almost certainly a variant of the slang word "skedaddle," meaning "to depart in haste." The "twenty-three," however, is a bit more obscure. One theory, which is often reported as fact, but isn't, traces the phrase to the corner of Twenty-third Street and Broadway in New York City. This is the location of the famous Flatiron Building, built in 1902 and known for the fierce updrafts its triangular shape (resembling an old-style flatiron) causes on the neighboring sidewalks. It is said that young men of the period would gather at this corner in hopes of seeing a lady's dress blown up by the wind, a practice which the local police would discourage with the gruff order "Twenty-three skiddoo!" Early films of the "dress blowing" phenomenon do, in fact, exist. You can even download one from the Library of Congress site on the Web. But "Twenty-three Skiddoo" was a popular phrase among young people as early as the 1890's, long before the Flatiron Building, which caused the wind storms in the first place, was even built. : The late etymologist Eric Partridge reported that one of his correspondents felt that the phrase might have had its roots in old telegraphers' code, where common phrases were replaced by numbers. In this code, "30" sent in Morse code meant "end of transmission" (a notation still used by journalists to signal the end of a story), "73" meant "best regards" (still very much in use by amateur radio operators), and "23" meant "away with you!" This seems a far more likely explanation of the phrase. : http://www.greenapple.com/~words1/backidx.html And here's another theory: 23 skidoo – From “Who Put the Butter in Butterfly?” by David Feldman, Harper & Row: “Why is the only number you see before skidoo 23? Who would have thought that this breezy bit of slang has lofty roots? It does, in Charles Dickens ‘Tale of Two Cities.’ The hero of this sad novel is Sidney Carton, who is the twenty-third of a multitude executed by the guillotine. : In the last act of the theatrical adaptation, ‘The Only Way,’ an old woman sits at the foot of the guillotine, calmly counting heads as they are lopped off. The only recognition or dignity afforded Carton as he meets his fate is the old woman emotionlessly saying ‘twenty-three’ as he is beheaded. : ‘Twenty-three’ quickly became a popular catchphrase among the theater community in the early twentieth century, often used to mean, ‘It’s time to leave while the getting is good.’ Cartoonist T.A. Dorgan combined ‘twenty-three’ with ‘skidoo.’ Skidoo was simply a fanciful variant of ‘skedaddle.’” : (Skedaddle, according to “The Dictionary of Contemporary Slang” by Tony Thorne, Pantheon Books, originated in the American Civil War and “…suggestions have been made as to the word’s derivation; it is probably a form of a dialect version of ‘scatter’ or ‘scuttle.’”) - Jim Landau From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 2 13:20:30 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:20:30 -0400 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English In-Reply-To: <1ad.9751d3d.2acb41e8@aol.com> Message-ID: > Do you mean Jay Leno, ed. _Jay Leno's Headlines: Book I, II, III : Real but > Ridiculous Headlines from America's Newspapers_ 1992, ISBN 0517082381 ? > That sounds about right. I didn't know there was/were more than one. From jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 13:31:35 2002 From: jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (James Kossuth) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:31:35 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <03532712527324@merriam.m-w.com> Message-ID: Growing up outside Boston, I always banged a Roger or a Louie. James. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Oct 2 13:53:33 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:53:33 -0400 Subject: 'play computer' Message-ID: I just heard a phrase come from the mouth of a CS prof, which I haven't heard in a while (that I am aware of). He said something like, "If you can play computer, you can do [X]". I heard this same thing from a guy a few years ago (it stuck in my mind I do not know why), who was not an adept computer user. I remember attributing it to his diminuation of other people's ability to with computers (as in, "he's coming over to play computer" meant, "he's coming over to install a printer driver (or something) for me"). The CS prof used it in a similar context - implying that being able to do something like massage user prefs is akin to "playing computer". I am wondering if this is a phrase with legs. I am wondering if it is, whether it is always used to imply some sort of mid-level computer knowledge - like hand-manipulating libraries, writing macros in MSOffice, or utilizing little javascript doodads on webpages - the sort of stuff that isn't apparent or accessible to a less curious computer user, but isn't nearly as nitty-gritty as what the CS or IT guys do. The obligatory search for the phrase on google generated too many instances of 'computer' being used to modify nouns like 'game' or 'sound' to quickly get any useful results. And now I play java programmer: InformaticsIdiom playComputer = new InformaticsIdiom(Phrase, to play, computer, "utilize mid-level computer knowledge"); //Throws AdjectivalNounException From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 14:23:26 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:23:26 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody else noticed this difference? Joanne Despres From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 14:37:22 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:37:22 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could anyone recommend some sources that describe these dialects? I'm interested in where this pronunciation comes from. I know several Sicilians and they don't have the final vowel deletion. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >Please rememnber final weakly stressed vowel > deletion in southern > >Italian (and recall that the overwhelming > percentage of Italian > >immigrants in America come from Sicily and the > south) . Therefore, > >/par-me-ZHAN/ is what many native speakers would > have said (and what > >many non-Italian speakers would have heard). > > dIn Is > > > >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, > pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as > also noted by Peter > >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: > "To make a word sound > >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the > last syllable, pronounce > >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling > cues." >> > > > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from > Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way > >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." > In other words, a > >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > > > >Steve Boatti > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 > e-mail: preston at msu.edu > phone: (517) 353-9290 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Oct 2 14:44:38 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:44:38 -0400 Subject: on hanging Message-ID: I've always heard U-y as "Huey" to rhyme w/"Louie" but I never heard a right-turn term that I remember. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 14:46:23 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:46:23 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D9AC91E.9484.8EA94C0@localhost> Message-ID: I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). dInIs Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody else noticed this difference? Joanne Despres -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 2 14:53:47 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:53:47 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have both as well, but I think I have a preference for "take a left/right" over "make". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device > selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us > quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > > dInIs > > > > > > Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is > the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that > metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, > whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody > else noticed this difference? > > Joanne Despres > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 14:55:39 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:55:39 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatemnt on TV! Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 2 15:03:02 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:03:02 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > >dInIs ~~~~~~ I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a woman, "take," to a man. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 15:06:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:06:39 EDT Subject: 23 skiddoo; Roastmaster; Communiversity; Nigella Bites; TONY 2003 Message-ID: 23 SKIDDOO As I posted here several years ago, it was entertainer Billy Vann who put together the independent slang terms "23" and "skiddoo." "23" has existed since at least 1899--before the Flatiron Building. The New York Times and the New-York Historical Society both should have known this. Tell them both that I live here and give my work out for free. MORE NYHS: As of September, the NYPL has suffered budget cuts and has been closed Mondays. It's open Tuesday-Saturday. The NYHS library is also open Tuesday-Saturday. So I came up with a brainstorm--why doesn't the NYHS library open Monday (say, Monday-Friday)? Wouldn't that make sense? So, I e-mailed the NYHS about it. I also told them that their web page information on "the Big Apple" was wrong. No one replied. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROASTMASTER There are about 1,500 Google hits for "roastmaster." From DAN'S PAPERS, 27 September 2002, pg. 10, col. 3: "Late Show with David Letterman" bandleader _Paul Shaffer_ will serve as "Roastmaster" and lead the charge in directing "THe New York Friars Club Celebrity Roast for _Chevy Chase_" on Saturday, September 28th at the New York Hilton Hotel. (Is the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD interested in this definition of "roast"?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMMUNIVERSITY From RENSSELAER (alumni magazine), September 2002, pg. 12, col. 1: ...President Jackson's vision of "communiversity," a term to describe Rensselaer's working relationship with Troy and the Capital Region. (Communiversity=community + university. Sometime, commune + university. It goes way back on Google to at least the early 1980s--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TIME OUT NEW YORK EATING & DRINKING GUIDE 2003 Edition 4 344 pages, paperback, $11.95 It's the same large size as last year, despite the fact that NYC restaurants are fewer. It's neatly divided into ethnic restaurants. For those who miss Tibet and have gotta have momos, for example, Pg. 203 shows you the restaurants Dokpa, Lhasa, Shangrila, Tibetan Yak, and Tsampa. As usual, the book has a Manhattan bias, unfortunately. There are three categories for American: American, American Creative, and American Regional There is a TONY 100 "Best in Chow." I'd appreciate if they'd add just a page on new stuff, about how this edition differs from last year's. Maybe an "In/Out" list. It would save me time. I'll report on this week's monster "Best of New York" VILLAGE VOICE perhaps a little later. ----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- O.T.: NIGELLA BITES Nigella Lawson is a new food columnist for THE NEW YORK TIMES. She's British. She reports today, for example: "So if you think British food is bad, it's because you don't really know British food." We'll get week after week of this. Wonderful. I couldn't help thinking of Bonnie Slotnick, the owner of a cookbook store in Greenwish Village. (Attention to NEW YORK TIMES: Greenwich Village is in New York.) I remembered our discussion after reading in the NEW YORK TIMES about the Brownstone food collection "donation" to NYU. "Donation?" she told me. "NYU _bought_ it!" Bonnie Slotnick knows stuff like that. And I thought that somewhere, in this world of Martha Stewarts and Paul Shaffer Drives and Oprah Winfrey Humanitarian Awards and Enron and Worldcom and Qwest, wouldn't it be great if the NEW YORK TIMES turned down Nigella Lawson and gave the same space to Bonnie Slotnick? I mean, maybe just once, in a million, gazillion years... Ah, forget it. Never happen. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:12:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:12:09 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <20021002145539.8807.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. dInIs >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ >the other night. It's supposed to take place in >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to >get proper treatemnt on TV! > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! >http://sbc.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:15:21 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:15:21 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since my (poorly-felt) introspection gives me the opposite inclination for "formality" ("make" seems more casual), I stick to my anti-introspective guns (never, of course, denying the folk linguistic value of what people "feel" to be the case). dInIs >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > >dInIs ~~~~~~ I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a woman, "take," to a man. A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:32:22 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:32:22 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: This is from a delightful novel/guidebook published in 1904: The Real New York, by Rupert Hughes. "It's a little windy to-day," said Miss Collis, who was hanging on to her skirts with one half-paralyzed hand. "Wait till we come to the Flatiron Building!" he said. "There is is, dead ahead of us. Isn't it a beauty? Some people say it is hideous, but I think it's as perfect, in its way, as the Parthenon. *** What's the Parthenon but a very beautiful shed, build like a wooden barn, only with marble beams and gables and with statuary instead of circus posters pasted on it? The Flatiron is like a glorious white ship. ***" With malice prepense he led her round Madison Square, so that she could cross directly in front of the bows of the skyscraper. . . . As they approached, she noticed little groups of men standing in knots at lee-corners. "What are those men watching?" "They're art students and connoisseurs," he said, "though some of them, I think, must be in dry-goods, waiting to learn the newest styles in hosiery." The wind was a zesty breeze elsewhere, but it blew a gale round this building, whose owners were once actually sued for raising such a wind as kept smashing in the plate glass of nearby shops. "Look at that hat!" cried De Peyster. And Miss Collis saw a tiny derby soaring like a kite as high as the eighteenth or twentieth story of the building. But Miss Collis had little time to watch these aeronautics, for she had troubles of her own. *** As for her skirts, though she clung to them with both hands, they snapped and swirled about her like a flag in a tempest. She was buffeted into other women, who were trying vainly to keep down appearances; the skirts of some were actually blown over their heads. Pp. 26-28, with a fine illustration on p. 27 by Hy. Meyer of the Flatiron building with hats and umbrellas swirling around it. Meanwhile, the lawsuit against the owners of the Flatiron Building was reported in the NYTimes on Januray 24, 1903, p. 8. And on February 6, 1903, p. 1 the Times had a long report on a damaging windstorm under the headline "Wind Causes Boy's Death; Blows Him Under an Automobile Near Flatiron Building; Windows Smashed Along Broadway -- The Gale Terrific Throughout the City -- A Fifth Avenue Runaway." So there is no question that the Flatiron Building, which would have been the only tall building in the neighborhood at the time, disrupted the usual flow of air in unexpected ways, and evidently the film being transmitted by the Library of Congress these days proves that cops were assigned to the corner to keep order. What's absent is any evidence that the cops said "23 skiddoo" when rousting the gawking corner-boys. Somehow it doesn't seem a very likely line. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:58:04 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:58:04 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Skidoo"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is an antedating of sorts: The OED's earliest citation for "skidoo" is dated 1905. But a search of ProQuest Historical Newspapers pull up an article in the N.Y. Times, 23 June 1901, p. 8, about the New Rochelle Yacht Club regatta. In a list of boats in that regatta one of them is named "Skidoo." I cannot tell for sure whether this is the same word as the verb meaning "to go away hurriedly," but in all likelihood it is the same word. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 16:27:44 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:27:44 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <20021002145539.8807.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would have to agree with you there. I'm from KY myself and I don't know how many shows, etc. that make me mad about how they portray Kentuckians with dialects, personality, etc. Annie Bush --- Ed Keer wrote: > Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of > _Hack_ > the other night. It's supposed to take place in > Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those > Hollywood > people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails > to > get proper treatemnt on TV! > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 16:43:26 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:43:26 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third > psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with > departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. > > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to > putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided > at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for "taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 16:52:31 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:52:31 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002012123.0460a140@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > the original sense. Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is there for a preference? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Wed Oct 2 17:45:13 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:45:13 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatment on TV! This isn't TV but the movies. I really enjoyed Mulholland Drive, but at one point the character from Deep River, Ontario says she is going to "fix" a sandwich, which is jarring. Best, Don From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Wed Oct 2 17:29:37 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:29:37 -0700 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I always thought "take a powder" meant "go powder your nose". Women leave the table so the men can talk. If you are a man of no stature in the group, then you take a powder with the women. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:43 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "23 skiddoo" On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third > psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with > departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. > > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to > putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided > at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for "taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:02:21 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:02:21 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <20021002143722.3572.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:37 AM -0700 10/2/02, Ed Keer wrote: >Could anyone recommend some sources that describe >these dialects? I'm interested in where this >pronunciation comes from. I know several Sicilians and >they don't have the final vowel deletion. > >Ed > It's standard in Neapolitan, including the greater Campania area, and from what I understand well beyond that in the lower part of the boot. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:06:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:06:45 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0400 10/2/02, sagehen wrote: > >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >>selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >>quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). >> >>dInIs >~~~~~~ >I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends >on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more >formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a >woman, "take," to a man. >A. Murie Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", combining with the thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard you see coming down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just outside New Jersey's Capital City, reading TRENTON MAKES THE WORLD TAKES I've never been able to figure out if this is pride speaking, or a complaint. Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 2 18:04:57 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:04:57 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" Message-ID: While we're waiting for Doug Wilson to produce support for his conjecture, I'd like to point out that it isn't as far-fetched as it might seem. The original form of the phrase, if the OED citations are any guide, was "take a run-out powder," and the identification of run-out powders with laxatives seems plausible, though of course still conjectural. This is hardly an end to the inquiry. If "take a run-out powder" means "take a laxative and leave to go to the bathroom," we would expect that "run-out powder" would mean "laxative" literally. As far as I know, that has not yet been demonstrated. Perhaps Barry can help? Also, I haven't checked RHHDAS. "Take a powder" usually implies the possibility of a later return, so that seems inconsistent with the theory that the powder is a suicidal poison, a theory without any other obvious support. The "powder room" theory is consistent with the meaning but not with the early "run-out powder" uses. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "23 skiddoo" On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > the original sense. Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is there for a preference? Fred Shapiro From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 17:12:52 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:12:52 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: << Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatment on TV! Ed >> I'm not from West Virginia, but I was amused at the awful rendition of West Virginia dialect that ran through the film A BEAUTIFUL MIND. It might have been convincing for coastal South Carolina, but it didn't work for me for Appalachia. Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So filmmakers who do this are interested in verisimilitude, not accuracy. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 18:09:03 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:09:03 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > > the original sense. > >Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is >there for a preference? > >Fred Shapiro Well, I said "tentatively" after all. Of course there is some evidence, although I've seen none which I know to be decisive: thus "tentative". In the early 20th century and earlier, I believe "take a powder" had a transparent conventional meaning like "take a pill" does today, viz., "take a dose [presumably of medication]". There were many kinds of powders, but the pharmacopeia was quite narrow by modern standards: laxatives, analgesics, and soporifics were commonplace powders. So if one said "I couldn't sleep, so I took a powder" one would understand this to refer to a soporific; today it would be "... so I took a pill" more often, I guess. In the early days of "take a powder" = "depart", maybe 1920 or so, there was the variant "take a run-out powder" meaning "run out" = "depart": this is analogous to the modern "take a chill pill" = "chill", i.e., "cool off"/"calm down". Three types of powder have been proposed here: poison (e.g., Cohen), magical powder which makes one disappear (e.g., Chapman), laxative powder (e.g., Partridge). Of these, the laxative possibility best accounts for the "run-out" connection IMHO (BTW, I tentatively take "run out" as "run out to the toilet" rather than referring crudely to a liquid trickling out). A completely speculative possibility: Tarrant's Aperient [a common laxative powder ca. 1900] > "Tarrant powder" > jocular "tear-out powder" [meaning one must tear out to the toilet after the dose] > "run-out powder" [with double-entendre].; In the absence of direct evidence, one can employ reason. For example, I know of no strong evidence for the derivation of "chad", but derivation from a Scots word for "gravel" is a reasonable tentative concept while the acronymic origin is implausible and the "Mr. Chadless" etymology is laughable (IMHO). That's why Fred Shapiro put forth the "gravel" hypothesis in "Verbatim" in 2001. Another example which I've exposed here: "poontang". Is it from French "putain" (US ca. 1910)? Seems reasonable, but where is the evidence? I know of none, and I can think of four other plausible etymologies ... but it's good enough for a tentative guess, for the OED, and for M-W, and for me too. When there is 'evidence', there is often still room for considerable doubt. For example, Popik and Cohen have presented texts supporting the name "Jinks" as the ancestor of the word "jinx" = "curse", but I do not agree that the evidence is at all convincing (see recent posts on this list). Read presents very extensive textual support for his "OK" derivation (which I find reasonably convincing), but not everyone is satisfied. Etc. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:17:38 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:17:38 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <001001c26a3b$75f80b40$0101a8c0@billionbridges1> Message-ID: At 1:45 PM -0400 10/2/02, Billionbridges.com wrote: > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to >> get proper treatment on TV! > >This isn't TV but the movies. I really enjoyed Mulholland >Drive, but at one point the character from Deep River, >Ontario says she is going to "fix" a sandwich, which is >jarring. > >Best, >Don Given the context, that could have been from within someone else's dream, though. With David Lynch, you never know. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:21:35 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:21:35 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: > >Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", combining with the >thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard you see coming >down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just outside New >Jersey's Capital City, reading > >TRENTON MAKES >THE WORLD TAKES > >I've never been able to figure out if this is pride speaking, or a complaint. > My reaction to this sign has always been "and they're *bragging* about this?????" -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From simon at IPFW.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:33:53 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:33:53 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: So Ron, what do you think of the If You Build It Shoeless Joe Will Emerge From The Cornfield baseball movie (I'm blanking the title), set, we are told, outside of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. (Is it supposed to be Corralville?) Especially galling was the we are Iowans hence we are sometimes r-less, palatalizing, vicious self-righteous idiots ban the book fscene. beth >>> RonButters at AOL.COM 10/02/02 13:08 PM >>> In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: << Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatment on TV! Ed >> I'm not from West Virginia, but I was amused at the awful rendition of West Virginia dialect that ran through the film A BEAUTIFUL MIND. It might have been convincing for coastal South Carolina, but it didn't work for me for Appalachia. Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So filmmakers who do this are interested in verisimilitude, not accuracy. From simon at IPFW.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:34:45 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:34:45 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: oy, sorry, mine wasn't tv either. beth beth >>> translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM 10/02/02 12:44 PM >>> > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatment on TV! This isn't TV but the movies. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:43:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:43:13 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:33 PM -0500 10/2/02, Beth Simon wrote: >So Ron, what do you think of the If You Build It Shoeless Joe Will >Emerge From The Cornfield baseball movie (I'm blanking the title) Field of Dreams >, set, we are told, outside of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. (Is it supposed >to be Corralville?) > >Especially galling was the we are Iowans hence we are sometimes >r-less, palatalizing, vicious self-righteous idiots ban the book >fscene. > >beth > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 19:10:03 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:10:03 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport Message-ID: I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some parts of the country? Fritz > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. >When I was growing up in Seattle in the 50's and early 60's, I used to hear "daveno" all the time, too. I think it kind of dropped out after that, or else all I heard was "davenport" or "sofa". I don't think "daveno" is used much any more. At least not around here. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 19:19:21 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:19:21 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", > combining with the > thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard > you see coming > down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just > outside New > Jersey's Capital City, reading > > TRENTON MAKES > THE WORLD TAKES > > I've never been able to figure out if this is pride > speaking, or a complaint. > > Larry I've always loved that sign, which by the way is also in large neon letters on a bridge crossing the Delaware from Trenton to PA. I've tried collecting similar slogans with unintended (?) other readings. Unfortunately, the only other one that comes to mind is New Hampshire's LIVE FREE OR DIE which always seemed like a threat to me. Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 19:19:28 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:19:28 -0400 Subject: Radio dialects Message-ID: If I may expand this thread to include yet another broadcast medium, there's something I've been wondering about for close to 20 years: what the heck kind of accent does Clayelle Dalferes of WQXR have? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Wed Oct 2 19:31:36 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:31:36 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Quoting "Dennis R. Preston" : > Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from > those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly > Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. > > dInIs > > >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > >the other night. It's supposed to take place in > >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > >get proper treatemnt on TV! > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From AnneR at HKUSA.COM Wed Oct 2 19:22:13 2002 From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:22:13 -0500 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: I grew up in suburban Boston (Acton), and we always said "bang a U-ie" although I've never heard anything about Louie, Ralph, or Roscoe! Anne Rogers >-----Original Message----- > >Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine >from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a >mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which >concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 19:35:45 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:35:45 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. >>> mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 10/02/02 12:31PM >>> The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Quoting "Dennis R. Preston" : > Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from > those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly > Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. > > dInIs > > >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > >the other night. It's supposed to take place in > >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > >get proper treatemnt on TV! > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 20:09:29 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:09:29 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: >Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern >WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. Fritz From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 20:59:58 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:59:58 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 4:09:01 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes: << I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. Fritz >> I meant the fake accents that virtually all the characters in movies from the 1930s assumed. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 21:02:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:02:26 -0400 Subject: Joe Special (1965); Rivel (1862) Message-ID: JOE SPECIAL Just to follow up on the "Joe Special" seen in ROADFOOD (2002). SAN FRANCISCO FIREHOURSE FAVORITES Indianapolis: Boobs-Merrill Co., Inc. 1965 Pg. 127: GAZONK EGGPLANT (Gazonk seems to be anything that is undefined.) Pg. 153: In San Francisco, Italian restaurants with Italian chefs almost invariably have a "special" of spinach and eggs and hamburger--and the special takes the name of the restaurant. Probably Joe's was first: Supposedly, for lack of enough ground beef to make a "hamburger on the French (roll)," for some closing-hour customer, the chef composed Joe's special--of the things on hand. George Dwyer titles his special to honor another Italian restaurant; he usually makes it at the firehouse at the appropriate after-midnight hour. (...) BRUNO'S SPECIAL (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- RIVEL I have no idea about the next DARE. Anybody? From the database NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES, and: Cormany, Rachel Bowman, 1836-1899, _Diary of Rachel Bowman Cormany, January, 1862_, in _Cormany Diaries: A Northern Family in the Civil War_....1982. Pg. 150: The girls (Susie and Lizzie) breakfasted with us. We had quite a jolly time eating rivel soup, baked pies for them. NOTE 17: Rivel, or rivvel, was a basic milk and flower soup. Ruth Hutchinson, _The New Pennsylvania Dutch Cook Book_ (New York, 1958), p. 1. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 21:02:14 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:02:14 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 4:09:01 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes: << I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. >> yes, if you put a coastal southern speaker next to an Appalachian speaker, most people will be able to report that they are different. But obviously the media stereotype of "southern" is quite different from the reality of West Virginia. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 23:26:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:26:48 -0400 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:10 PM -0700 10/2/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are >what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has >contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had >never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some >parts of the country? >Fritz > > I'm familiar with "davenport" from reading only, and had never heard or seen "daveno" before the currrent thread. In NYC we knew from sofas and couches, and love seats for the two-seaters. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 23:30:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:30:39 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <20021002191921.79230.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:19 PM -0700 10/2/02, Ed Keer wrote: > > >> Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", >> combining with the >> thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard >> you see coming >> down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just >> outside New >> Jersey's Capital City, reading >> >> TRENTON MAKES >> THE WORLD TAKES >> >> I've never been able to figure out if this is pride >> speaking, or a complaint. >> >> Larry > >I've always loved that sign, which by the way is also >in large neon letters on a bridge crossing the >Delaware from Trenton to PA. I've tried collecting >similar slogans with unintended (?) other readings. >Unfortunately, the only other one that comes to mind >is New Hampshire's LIVE FREE OR DIE which always >seemed like a threat to me. > >Any others? > >Ed > Well, for many years the Exit 6 sign on the westward Cross-Westchester Expressway (I-287) read: WHITE PLAINS NO WHITE PLAINS --until, as I've remarked in print, the powerful neo-Aristotelian lobby exerted its influence to get it changed. It now reads NO WHITE PLAINS/WHITE PLAINS, which is somehow less catchy. (NO here of course is intended to designate 'North'.) Larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 3 00:53:15 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:53:15 -0500 Subject: "23 skidoo" and related matters Message-ID: >At 12:43 PM -0400 10/2/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >> I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third >> psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with >> departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. >> >> Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to >> putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided >> at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. > >I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological >conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for >"taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in >one's drink? I read about "take a powder" many years ago but no longer remember the source. (It was in connection with the once-frequent use in Italy of slipping a poisonous powder into the drink of someone to be eliminated). So I have no problem with anyone deciding to reject what I said unless or until the source can be located. But I would like to address Fred's non-criticism criticism of my speculating about etymology. Detectives do a lot of speculating at the start of a case; most of the leads prove false, but it is nonetheless valuable to check them out. Scientists do an enormous amount of speculating about what may or may not work to cure a disease; again, there are many false starts, and yet setting forth all the possibilities is valuable. One might actually provide the cure. I have been working in etymology for some 32 years and have made more incorrect guesses than I can count; I try to catch them all before they get into print but am not always successful. But I also say unabashedly that I am not afraid to make mistakes; they are an integral part of the learning process. As the late, great linguist Roman Jakobson (pronounced Yakobson) one said: "A bad theory leads to a better theory. The absence of a theory leads to nothing." Now, the question here is whether the ads-l site is an appropriate place to speculate. I certainly hope it is. If the members interested in etymology were in my living room, I would bat around various ideas with them. This is a conversation, an enjoyable dialogue, which at least sometimes bears fruit. But the members are not in my living room; they are out there somewhere, and so we bat around the ideas on ads-l. To say that an idea is not only wrong but should not even be expressed is to stifle the discussion. This is troubling. Some of my most scholarly material (e.g. the two monographs on the origin of "shyster") arose from initial stumbles. So while I fully respect and greatly welcome Fred's contributions which come from concentrating on initial attestations, I also see value in trying one's best to figure out the origin of a word or expression. Our approaches are certainly not mutually exclusive, since an incorrect proposed etymology can lead to the discovery of an original citation (this happened with my initially stumbling work on "shyster"; the first attestations were then discovered by NY Historical Society librarian Roger Mohovich). Barry Popik has also often unearthed very valuable material after he or I (or both) stumbled initially. And when the discoveries are made which conclusively solve part or all of an etymological problem, that is a cause for celebration all around. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 01:38:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:38:54 EDT Subject: Pupusa (Salvadoran pancake, 1956) Message-ID: PUPUSA From this week's VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 80, col. 2: _best perfect pupusas_ The Salvadoran pupusa is the world's most overlooked pancake. Versatile and humble, they function as snacks, accompaniments, or entire meals. The best are found far out on the Rockaway Peninsula at _EL REFUGIO_, which sports a broader range than just the usual bean, cheese, and pork. One is stuffed with leathery zucchini, while the plain cheese is engagingly tweaked with loroco flowers. 114-11 Rockaway Beach Boulevard, Queens, 718-634-5097. From THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD (1999), pg. 151: Salvador is thickly strewn with _pupuserias_, selling _pupusas_, which are small thick tortillas variously filled (beans, sausage, cheese). There are about 1,000 hits on Google. Notice that the VILLAGE VOICE didn't just mention the "pupusa"--there was a category for the "best pupusa" in New York. It looks like we have another "momo" on our hands. Does it get mentioned in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD? Again, it's not my call. All I can say that the food is being eaten and written about it New York City. Does it get entered in the OED? Again, it's not my call, but I didn't make up the OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD. Here are some historical cites: FOUR KEYS TO EL SALVADOR by Lilly de Jongh Osborne New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company 1956 Pg. 70: At nightfall they sit beside portable stoves and cook _pupusas_ (large corn-paste cakes filled with delicious cream cheese), which must be eaten very hot, directly from the clay dish on which they have been roasted; or they prepared steaming hot coffee mixed with heaps of black sugar and served in clay cups, or they serve _atole_, a drink made from ground coffee. ON YOUR OWN IN EL SALVADOR by Jeff Brauer, Julian Smith and Veronica Wiles On Your Own Publications 1995 Pg. 85: _Pupusas_, the most distinctive Salvadoran food, are small, thick _tortillas_ filled with soft, white cheese. They're often fried, and are great hot off the skillet. A special version of _papusas_, made from rice, is sold in the town of Olocuilta (see Olocuilta). You'll probably want to put some _cortido de repollo_--pickled and chopeed cabbage and carrots, often in a jar on the table--on top of your _papusas_ to add some crunch and cool them down, followed by a sprinkle of chili sauce to heat them back up. You also have a choice of what goes inside: _chicharron_ (fried pork rinds); _queso_ (cheese); _frijoles_ (beans); or _revuelta_ (everything). Pg. 86: _Salvadoran Recipes_ _Papusas_ _Masa_ (a finely-ground corn meal available at many specialty food stores) Soft white cheese, such as mozzarella Tobasco sauce Mix the _masa_ with water and form thje resulting dough into two thin _tortillas_, each about five inches in diameter and 1 1/2 inch thick. Place the cheese in the center of one _tortilla_ and place the other on top, pressing the edges together to seal the filling inside. Place in a hot pan or onb a griddle with a dash of vegetable oil and cook evenly on both sides. Serve with tabasco sauce and _curtido de repollo_ (see below). Other fillings can be substituted for cheese, including cooked beans and meat. _Curtido de Repollo_ _(Chopped cabbage in vinegar)_ One cabbage Vinegar Carrot, onion Oregano, salt, chili pepper Slice the cabbage and vegetables into small strips, place in vinegar and add oregano, salt and chili pepper to taste. Allow the mixture to soak for approximately six hours before serving with _pupusas_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: THE NIGELLA LAWSON DISASTER IN TODAY"S _NEW YORK TIMES_ Another opinion (which states it well), from the NY Times web site board: frnagle1b - 10:46am Oct 2, 2002 EST (#4067 of 4068) ok, i've had it already with nigella's column. it's even worse than the bridget-jones'-diary known as amanda hesser. at least amanda has pretty much admitted that she can't really cook -- readers only wait for her to also realize she can't really write. but nigella is so bad it's shocking. first column, she offers us a bit about tuscany -- as if it were new to us? -- we're not the british blue-hairs who hang about in sorrento at the foreigner's club -- that further insults us by not actually offering a tuscan menu. now she praises those british "nursery dishes" and actually offers us a recipe for toad-in-hole. as if we would want to eat it? even british people don't want to eat it. what will she breathlessly offer us next? bubble-and-squeak? why is the new york times presenting us with food that wouldn't even appear in woman's day? contrast both amanda hesser and nigella with recent pieces by judy rodgers. now there's a woman who can cook, write, and offer recipes of interest. hire judy; lose amanda and nigella. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 3 03:01:00 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:01:00 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: How about the Indiana farmers on last week's West Wing. They sounded like Central Casting combed New England for bit players, and as Josh and Toby got closer to Cincinnati there was no trace of Upper South. None of them sound like any Indiana farmers I've ever known. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Keer" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:55 AM Subject: Bad TV dialects > Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > the other night. It's supposed to take place in > Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatemnt on TV! > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 3 03:44:10 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:44:10 -0500 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are >what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has >contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had >never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some >parts of the country? >Fritz > My sense of the word is that it describes a piece of furniture popular before I was born (1959). I think the first time I heard/read with word was in _Peanuts_, and that my reaction was, what is that (in fact, I think Lucy says to Charlie Brown during a game of Cowboys and Indians, I shot him behind the davenport, and if that's not fatal I don't know what is"). It was NOT a word I heard growing up near Cleveland. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Oct 3 04:40:18 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:40:18 -0700 Subject: Take a powder Message-ID: Just to highlight this sub-thread, I wanted to mention that my early and enduring impression of the context for this expression was that it was mobster-slang from the 1920s (Al Capone, et al.). This suggests that its origins were far from referring delicately to ladies repairing to the restroom. The implication seemed to be to leave the scene precipitously (and surreptitiously) to avoid being captured or rubbed out, and unlikely to return soon. These are purely impressionistic interpretations, however. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 05:54:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 01:54:32 EDT Subject: Take a powder (Buchanan papers, ca. 1939) Message-ID: We don't need to guess! Peter Tamony has collected examples of "take a powder" and "powder." Gerald Cohen should request this (if he wants to). I'll jump in only if more work needs to be done. The Barry Buchanan papers from his unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD show, in the THEATER card section: Take a brodie Take a call Take a cropper Take a curtain Take a cut Take a dip Take a flyer Take a licking Take a powder Slang for, to leave; to leave without notice; to sneak away from a place. Cf. powder. (I can't locate the section with "powder." I should probably put all these entertainment terms online, but I'm more tempted to burn everything in this apartment and somehow start some new life, in some new city--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 3 07:11:05 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 03:11:05 -0400 Subject: Cucoloris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:47 PM 9/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: > German has a very similar word, albeit with a different meaning: >KOKOLORES, KOKOLORUS, masc. (no plural): (a) rubbish, nonsense, >twaddle, (b) palaver, fuss; e.g. "mach doch nicht solchen Kokolores >don't make such a fuss. >(c) = German "Kram", in: den ganzen Kokolores/all den Kokolores >einpacken to pack in the whole caboodle/shebang. > > Might the U.S./British term denoting "screens made of perforated >plastic or wood that are placed in front of the luminaire" have >derived from the German word? Perhaps (and yes, yes, I know this is >speculating) a German referred to a pile of the screens as Kokolores, >intending the equivalent of "Kram" (stuff, junk, things), which was >then interpreted by a non-German speaker as a technical term for >these screens. > >Gerald Cohen > > >>At 10:07 AM +0100 9/30/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >>While looking into the film and stage lighting term 'gobo' for kinds >>of screen used to generate patterns of light and shadow on the set, I >>came across "cucoloris" (variously spelt) as a common term for some >>sorts - screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in >>front of the luminaire. The word is in no dictionary that I've been >>able to trace, nor is there any indication of its origin. One >>possibility might be the classical Latin "cucullus" for a hood or >>cowl, which it is just possible some early photographer might have >>borrowed. Does anybody have any evidence at all for this word that >>might throw light (ahem) on where it comes from? Only speculation. The Kluge German etymological dictionary says "Kokolores" is a fake-Latin coinage, and compares it to "cockalorum" in English. Maybe "cucoloris" is a variant of "Kokolores" or a another parallel fanciful coinage. The cucoloris -- also "cucalorus" etc. -- is perhaps a disc, since it is called a "cookie": maybe the "cookie" came first, later elaborated to "cookaloris" by analogy to the German word. The spelling "cocoloris" can be found in a number of European Web items, where it covers "cucoloris" and more often the name of a band (thus likely reflecting "Kokolores" too). Hard to tell whether some instances are spelling errors, of course. Another possibility would be a trade-name origin: e.g., I can imagine a Spanish-language "Cucolores" < "cuco" [i.e., "cute"/"sly"] + "colores", but my feel for Spanish may leave something to be desired. "Cucullus" of course has modern reflexes in Spanish and in scientific Latin (e.g., "cucullaris" = "trapezius"), but I can't find any with endings like "-oris"/"-orus". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 08:38:02 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 04:38:02 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fritz J commented: >> I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. << I highly doubt that a majority of Americans can tell the diff between Carter and Elvis. They might be able to tell that they are both "Southern". Maybe. This is an opinion, but it is why I say (as I did recently here) that it's linguists who are abnormal. OK, unusual. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 09:30:20 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:30:20 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Beth) Simon said: >> Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. << The non-voicing of the final vowel in these words fits a pattern I have noticed among New Haven, CT, folks of Italian heritage (yes, the same people who say "ah-BEETS" for apizza, and who actually put "apizza" on signs for pizza parlors). In the New Haven area, ricotta is "ri-GOT" and mozzarella is "MOOTS-a-rel". There may be others like this, but I can't recall just now. As a person of half-Italian (well, Sicilian) heritage, but from Michigan, these struck me as very odd when I first heard them. They are the regular prons around New Haven, though. Even non-Italians say them this way, as when asking for something at a deli or on a(n) (a)pizza. Larry H or Alice F, please back me up on this, or people might think I'm making this up. Frank Abate PS: Beth S, I apologize for the pun at the top, but I couldn't resist. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 09:55:54 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:55:54 -0400 Subject: Joseph Nathan Kane dies In-Reply-To: <1b8.6cfcfcd.2ac88457@aol.com> Message-ID: Many thanks to Barry P for his recent notice of the death of Joseph Nathan Kane. I did not know of all of Kane's achievements, though I have used his books for years. Similar to Kane, it seems to me, was Rev. E. Cobham Brewer, who gave the world Brewer's Dict of Phrase and Fable, not to mention 2 other ref works, on literary and historical matters (can't recall the titles of these, long out of print). Brewer collected "factoids" on little bits of paper, and put each into a particular box. He did this for years. Then he would dump all the stuff out of the box, sort through it, and thus have the basis for a ref book. I believe he did each of his books this way. Frank Abate From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Oct 3 11:44:56 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:44:56 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] Message-ID: Hi Leticia, Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. Thanks! Drew From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Oct 3 11:49:54 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:49:54 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] Message-ID: whoops! my workstudy's last name starts with ars... which is close to ads.... which is what I must have typed & sent in my pre-coffee haze... my bad. Drew Danielson wrote: > > Hi Leticia, > > Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. > > Thanks! > Drew -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar . Carnegie Mellon University ECE Department . 5000 Forbes Avenue . Pittsburgh, PA 15213 +1 412 268-2188 Voice . +1 412 268-3890 Fax ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful. -- Robert A. Heinlein From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 12:00:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:00:07 EDT Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign NORTH EAST RISING SUN designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. - Jim Landau From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU Thu Oct 3 12:33:00 2002 From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:33:00 -0500 Subject: Job Ad Message-ID: ************** Department of English Mississippi State University Drawer E Mississippi State, MS 39762 Assistant Professor in linguistics/TESOL. Ph.D. in English or linguistics with emphasis in TESOL required. Teaching assignment will be 2/2 in the first year and 3/2 in subsequent years, on condition of appropriate productivity. Salary will be competitive. Affordable and comfortable faculty housing is usually available in the first two years of employment. Mississippi State University is a Carnegie Research I institution with approximately 16,000 students on the main campus. To apply, please send a letter and a c.v. to arrive by November 15, 2002. Review of applications will begin immediately and will continue until the position is filled. Mississippi State University is an AA/EO employer. ************** From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 3 13:17:50 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 06:17:50 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The usual difference in my usage seems to follow the pattern: "Take (or hang) a left (right, uie) here", but "Make a left (right, u-)turn here." --- sagehen wrote: > >I have both, and introspection fails about the > selectivity device > >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good > thing; otherwise us > >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't > have squat to do). > > > >dInIs > ~~~~~~ > I also have both, but feel that selection is a > matter of register: depends > on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly > more hip; "make," more > formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might > also say "make" to a > woman, "take," to a man. > A. Murie ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:44:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:30 AM -0400 10/3/02, Frank Abate wrote: >(Beth) Simon said: > >>> >Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly >they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel >on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. ><< > >The non-voicing of the final vowel in these words fits a pattern I have >noticed among New Haven, CT, folks of Italian heritage (yes, the same people >who say "ah-BEETS" for apizza, and who actually put "apizza" on signs for >pizza parlors). > >In the New Haven area, ricotta is "ri-GOT" and mozzarella is "MOOTS-a-rel". >There may be others like this, but I can't recall just now. > >As a person of half-Italian (well, Sicilian) heritage, but from Michigan, >these struck me as very odd when I first heard them. They are the regular >prons around New Haven, though. Even non-Italians say them this way, as >when asking for something at a deli or on a(n) (a)pizza. > >Larry H or Alice F, please back me up on this, or people might think I'm >making this up. > I already did so yesterday, Frank. What I was saying then (or maybe it was Tuesday) was that I hear the missing vowel all the time, but wondered about the /dzh/ to /zh/ in "parmigiano". I had other examples of the vowel drop, including "capaGOL". I usually hear "moots-uh-REL", with final stress, though. In fact, "fresh mozzarella", with the final vowel pronounced, seems weird; has to be "moots-uh-REL". Very tasty, esp. with some nice pruh-SHOOT. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:48:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] In-Reply-To: <3D9C2EE2.E9F6327E@cmu.edu> Message-ID: At 7:49 AM -0400 10/3/02, Drew Danielson wrote: >whoops! my workstudy's last name starts with ars... which is close to >ads.... which is what I must have typed & sent in my pre-coffee haze... > >my bad. > What a relief. I was definitely not looking forward to all that busy work. Larry > >Drew Danielson wrote: >> >> Hi Leticia, >> >> Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. >> >> Thanks! > > Drew > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:49:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:49:49 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:00 AM -0400 10/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the >Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > >designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau Yup, still there, just a little after you enter Maryland going south on I-95. Larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 14:39:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:39:25 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: A sign which sadly no longer exists---at the State Police "barracks" on the Delaware approaches to the Delaware Memorial Bridges, there used to be a big sign that read: INFORMATION POLICE I know many people who could not pass that sign without imagining Orwellian interpretations. - James A. Landau From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 3 14:41:47 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:41:47 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <55.2e2ca24b.2acc8314@aol.com> Message-ID: --- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, > edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: > .... Of course, most Americans think there is > only one Southern > (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in > GONE WITH THE WIND. So > filmmakers who do this are interested in > verisimilitude, not accuracy.\ If I understand correctly, what the non-south hears and approximates as a "southern" accent or dialect didn't appear until late in the nineteenth century, so Civil War movies and postbellum westerns depicting Reb's using modern heavy "southern" accents are inaccurate. Is this at least approximately true? How early did "real" various regional accents and dialects become distinguishable - or at least how early are they documented? And how much have the modern versions changed or evolved from the originals? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 3 14:43:18 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:43:18 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: - Jim Landau writes: >On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the >Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN ~~~~~~~ Perpetual summer? AM From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 15:26:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:26:30 EDT Subject: Cheb (Senegal fish & rice dish); Pizza; Fuzhou Sauce;Gastropub;Convenience Food Message-ID: Another days goes by, and the likelihood that, for example, Kathleen Miller and William Safire will correct "cakewalk" (a simple thing, really), or that the Associated Press will correct its story that "parking fines haven't increased since 1975," appears to be nil. These are incorrect facts. I don't have to EARN respect here. I don't have to suffer. I don't have to sue. These are errors that must be automatically corrected. But it's not automatic. It's all a game of "we're the Associated Press and the New York Times, and you're nobody." I canot tolerate when both my employer and my ADS colleagues lie and treat me with no respect. It's not even fun when the "Yankees" lost yesterday. This must lead me, if not now then soon, to another profession. This will not correct the situation for someone else, or add checks and balances where none now exist. But I can't, for example, beg the New York Times for another ten years to print a simple story about "the Big Apple." It's already been a disgrace to my departed family. David Shulman approached me yesterday. Someone is selling a very valuable collection of cryptography, and Shulman wants me to buy it to add to the collection he's already donated to the NYPL. Maybe I should tell him again that I've earned all of $1,000 in 25 years, and that I'll need what money I have to seek a new life, and perhaps in a new home. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------CHEB From the VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 81, col. 2: _best choice cheb_ Cheb, the national dish of Senegal, is now available in four boroughs in a range of renditions. Current best is that found at _DABAKHMALIK_, picturesquely located right across the street from the Slave #1 Theatre on Bed-Stuy's main drag--a mountain of red rice incorporating hunks of stuffed bluefish, cabbage, cassava, and carrot, the flavor darkened with wisps of stockfish. 1194 Fulton Street, Brooklyn, 718-789-2888. This looks like a no-brainer. It's the national dish of Senegal. It's in at least four boroughs of New York City. Enter it right away! If only it were that easy. There are five Senegalese restaurant's in TIME OUT NEW YORK'S EATING & DRINKING 2003. "Maffe" is here.(the Senegal peanut butter sauce/stew, not in the revised OED?). From pg. 21, col. 3: ..._Thiebou diene_, which the menu trumpets as Senegal's national dish, is a mix of tomatoey bluefish, tender vegetables and rice. (...) The draw here isn't atrmosphere--it's the _thiebou diene_, or _ceebu jen_. Rstaurants may spell the name differently, but they all refer to this rice, fish and vegetable dish with pride, branding it the "Senegalese daily meal." It's never "cheb"! The spellings are wildly different! OED should pick the most frequent as it's main entry, but enter 'em all. I'm working on it. I was copying my "pupusa" stuff yesterday and my Senegal books were all taken away when I returned to my library table. I'll never find them again! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PIZZA From the VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 81: New York's first pizza parlor (founded 1905)--where American pizza was invented--remains the best in town. Especially when it comes to the sainted clam pie. At _LOMBARDI'S_, freshly shucked littlenecks are deposited on the crust at the last minute and barely cooked, leaving them supremely juicy and briny. Type A. 32 Spring Street, 941-7994. (I have cited "pizza" in the NEW YORK TIMES ffrom 1903, but since it says here that American pizza was invented in 1905, I'll just ignore my findings--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FUZHOU From the same VILLAGE VOICE, pp. 80-81: _best fabulous fuzhou_ The wave of Fujianese immigrants has crested in the last couple of years, creating new parts of Chinatown on the Lower East Side, now teeming with bargain cafes that charge $3 for a selection of three dishes served over a mountain of rice. In addition to a diverting steam table, _118 LUCKY_ offers a menu of standards like sweet dumpling soup and duck in Fuzhou sauce, in addition to nearly any type of fresh seafood perfectly steamed with shards of ginger. 118 Eldridge Street, 965-1560. (The only new "Fuzhou" word here appears to be "Fuzhou sauce," but it didn't come up on Google--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GASTROPUB The October 2002 issue of the American Express magazine DEPARTURES (named because that's what happens to your money with your American Express card) is a BRITAIN SPECIAL ISSUE. I read it because there's food in each issue; the NY TIMES writer R. W. Apple does a food essay here. Mimi Sheraton was in a month or so ago. (Also, I read SEPARTURES because they send it to me.) From pg. 114: Five or so years ago young chefs eager to go it alone invented the gastropub--London's version of the Paris bistro--as an inepensive venue where they could serve a clientele happier without a restaurant's formality. Perhaps not for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, but perhaps worth a mention. "London Pubs Sip the Tonic of Youth" was in the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 December 1997, pg. F1: "Thie weekend is the best time to catch the crowd at London's new gastro-pubs." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CONVENIENCE FOOD John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has "convenience store," but not "convenience food." OED has December 1961. 10 November 1954, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 50: Among these he mentioned the sale of non-food items in grocery stores and the introduction of frozen foods and other so-called convenience food products and beer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GENERATION GAP Not a food term, but an antedate. OED has May 1967. 2 March 1964, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: She has done what no other entertainer has managed since the Beatles and the rock 'n' roll groups came on the scene. She has bridged the generation gap. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KA-TA For those who like this spelling. From THE PEOPLE OF TIBET (1928, 1968, at Oxford of course), by Sir Charles Bell, pg. 220: Firstly, the silk scarf of ceremony (_ka-ta)_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------SAMBO. What will the next DARE have for "Sambo"? I was looking for "okra." Another early hit for this is on EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE. THe book is A TRUE & EXACT HISTORY OF THE ISLAND OF BARBADOES (1657) by Richard Ligon, pg. 54: The substance of this, in such language as they had, they delivered, and poor _Sambo_ was the Orator... (OED cites from this book 283 times, yet misses "Sambo" and the numerous mentions of "brandy"--ed.) From alex at SPAMCOP.NET Thu Oct 3 16:16:11 2002 From: alex at SPAMCOP.NET (Alex Bischoff) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:16:11 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was > actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Not exactly ;). "Where was the Dukes of Hazzard filmed? Answer: The first five episodes were filmed in Covington, Georgia, and then the show was moved to Los Angeles and shot in surrounding areas, both on set and on location." (http://www.wopat.com/didyou.html) -- Alex Bischoff, KB3BZG 3812078 on ICQ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will code for food. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- XHTML/HTML/CSS Developer for Hire -> http://www.handcoding.com/portfolio/ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 3 17:27:10 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:27:10 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: For the related question of the supposed setting of the show: >>The location of Hazzard is equally vague, and kept that way purposely; the intent of The Dukes of Hazzard, after all, was not to represent some real place, but to provide Southern-flavored entertainment. Clues in the show, if carefully collected over the seasons, lead devout viewers to believe that the county backs up against the Georgia Appalachians, and the speech patterns are the twangier accents of the mountain regions. The language, though, is largely based on stereotypes of Southern dialects instead of the speech itself.<< Guthrie, The Hazards of Southern Speech: Language in The Dukes of Hazzard (1996), available at http://www.bubblesbrnaid.com/bmn/papers/hazzard.html. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Alex Bischoff [mailto:alex at SPAMCOP.NET] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bad TV dialects > The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was > actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Not exactly ;). "Where was the Dukes of Hazzard filmed? Answer: The first five episodes were filmed in Covington, Georgia, and then the show was moved to Los Angeles and shot in surrounding areas, both on set and on location." (http://www.wopat.com/didyou.html) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 18:40:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:40:54 EDT Subject: 23 Skidoo Message-ID: On 10/2/02 at 9:16:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time I quoted the following from http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/811.html: The late etymologist Eric Partridge reported that one of his correspondents felt that the phrase might have had its roots in old telegraphers' code, where common phrases were replaced by numbers. In this code, "30" sent in Morse code meant "end of transmission" (a notation still used by journalists to signal the end of a story), "73" meant "best regards" (still very much in use by amateur radio operators), and "23" meant "away with you!" This seems a far more likely explanation of the phrase. I have since found a copy of the Phillips code on-line at URL http://www.qsl.net/ae0q/phillip3.htm This Web page gives the following list of numbers and the phrases they represented: WIRE- Preference 25- Busy on anr wire over everything 26- Put on gnd wire except 95 27- Priority, very 1- Wait a moment important 2- Important business 28- Do you get my 3- What time is it? writing? 4- Where shall I go 29- Private, deliver in ahead? sealed envelope. 5- Have you business 30- No more -end for me? 31- Form 31 train 6- I am ready order 7- Are you ready? 32- I understand that 8- Close your key; I am to ......... ckt is busy 33- Car report (Also, 9- Close your key for answer is paid for) priority business 34- Msg for all officers (wire chief, dspr, 35- You may use my etc.) signal to ans this 10- Keep this ckt 37- Diversion closed (Also, inform all 12- Do you under- interested) stand? 39- Important, with 13- I understand priority on thru 14- What is the wire. (Also, sleep- weather? car report) 15- For you and 44- Answer promptly and other to copy by wire 17- Lightning here 73- Best regards 18- What is the 88- Love and kisses trouble? 91- Supt's signal 19- Form 19 train 92- Deliver promptly order 93- Vice pres. & gen. 21- Stop for meal mgr's signals 22- Wire test 95- President's signal 23- All copy 134- Who is at the 24- Repeat this back key? While it is possible that some telegraphers used a different meaning for "23", this particular Phillips Code dictionary says that "23" means "all copy", an instruction with no obvious connection to "skidoo". - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 3 18:43:56 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:43:56 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: Boring Oregon City As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 3, 2002 8:00 AM -0400 "James A. Landau" wrote: > On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the > Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > > designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Oct 3 19:09:27 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:09:27 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: Peter, you remember that nearly every exit off I-5 used to point the driver toward "Ocean Beaches." I don't know whether this is true, but alledgedly some out-of-staters thought that Ocean Beaches was a town. Of course, it's not--it's the beaches that are on the ocean. Well, I have not seen Ocean Beaches in a while. I think all the signs now read "Oregon Coast." Fritz (who goes to the 'beach,' not the 'coast') >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 10/03/02 11:43AM >>> On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: Boring Oregon City As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 3, 2002 8:00 AM -0400 "James A. Landau" wrote: > On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the > Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > > designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 19:21:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:21:03 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <387595.1033645436@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0700 10/3/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, >there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of >Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: > >Boring >Oregon City > >As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as >The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" > >Peter Mc. > Somehow that just reminded me of the exit sign on Route 6 on lower Cape Cod in Massachusetts: Mashpee Sandwich yum! Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 21:49:51 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:49:51 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <387595.1033645436@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: >Boring >Oregon City > >As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as >The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Not quite the same thing, but in Oakland, CA there was a building (not sure if it's still there) with the sign: Iamba Building. Every time I passed it I couldn't resist saying, "Yes, you are." Rima From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 3 22:17:26 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:17:26 -0700 Subject: "a" Message-ID: This question comes not about a-prefixing, but the insertion of "a" in superlatives. That is, "too good a time" for nonstandard *"a too good time," or "too difficult a task" for *"a too difficult task." (The nonstandard forms remind me of Effi Briest's father's famous "ein zu weites Feld," but I digress.) Yesterday on Morning Edition there was a report from NPR's Congressional correspondent, David Wellna (sp?), in which I think I heard "too broad a powers"--"a" used with the plural and thus obviously a fossil with the purpose of circumlocuting the more cumbersome "powers that are/were too broad." What's this called, if anything? Peter R. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 23:35:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:35:29 -0400 Subject: Tibetan Glossary (1901) Message-ID: WITH TIBETANS IN TENT AND TEMPLE: NARRATIVE OF FOUR YEARS' RESIDENCE ON THE TIBETAN BORDER, AND OF A JOURNEY INTO THE FAR INTERIOR by Susie Carson Rijnhart Chicago: Fleming H. Revell Company 1901 "Momo" is not here, but "Pien shi" is! Pg. 398: _GLOSSARY._ Achi...Sister. Ahon...A teacher among moslems. Apa...Father. Argols...Excreta of animals. Aro...Brother. Bei-si or pei-si...Mongol chief. Chang...Alocholis liquor made by Tibetans. Chang lam...Long road. Chen tai...Military official. Chong-kuei teh...Head of a house, shopkeeper. Choma...Edible root. Chorten...Monument. Churma...Dried curds or buttermilk. Calai Lama...Grand lama. Dimo dimo ing...Tibetan salutation. Dzassak...Mongol chief. Fa tai...Abbot. Fen-ing-tang...C.I.M. Chapel. Fu tai...CIvil official. Fu yeh...Living Buddha. Geiu...Yellow sect of lamas. Gimbi...COntroller of Official escort. Gomba...Monastery. Heh-ho-shang...Black priests. Ho pen...Mohammedan. Pg. 399: lang-ta-ren...Foreign great man. Ie mah...Wild mule. Ja-ja...Sleeveless jacket. Ja-lam...Road traveled by tea caravans. K'a che...Mohammedan. Kali...Slowly. K'ang...The hollow heated platform in use as a bed and divan. Kanpo...Abbot. Kao yeh...Secretary. Karwa...Palace. Khata...Scarf of ceremony. Khopa or kopa...Tibetan from the interior. Kiang...Discuss. Kotow...Strike the forehead to the ground in worship or honor. Kuan men...Official gate. Kushok...Gentleman. Ku tsi...Trousers. Lama...Buddhist priest. La rong...Official residence of the abbot. Li...One-third of an ENglish mile. Long ta...Wind horse made of paper. Mamba...Doctor. Mamba fu yeh...Medical buddha. Mang tuan...Satin given by the Emperor to the Mongol princes. Mani...Prayer, rosary. M'ien...Vermicelli. Obo...Pile of stones on a hill or pass. Oruss...Russian. Panaka...Nomadic Tibetan of N. E. Tibet. Pao ren...A man who acts as security. Peh Sing...Subjects, common people. Peh tsi...Coolie who carries loads on his back. Peling...English. Pei-lu...Nothern road. Pg. 400: Piao...Agreement. Pien shi...Small, boiled, meat dumplings. (Not "momo"?--ed.) Ponbo...Official. Ponbo ch'enpo...Great official. Puh tsi...Shop. Pulu...Woolen cloth made by Tibetans. Sho...Junket. Sung Kuan...Disciplinarian. Ta ko...Older brother. Tangui...Tibetan of lake district. Tao tai...Official of third rank. Tiao lo...Tower of defence. Ting...Civil official in small town. Tong Kuan...Eastern suburb. Tsamba...Parched barley meal. Tsao ti...Grass country. Tseh...Thief. Tung shih...Interpreter. Ula...Relays of animals supplied by Government order. Wang yeh...Prince of chief. Wu chai khata...Scarfs of ceremony in parcels of five. Yamen...Home and office of an official. Yseu Ma'shika...Jesus Christ. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 00:45:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:45:55 -0400 Subject: Chinese Pizza (Chizza); Zuni Bread; In the Soup; Come and Get It! Message-ID: CHINESE PIZZA (CHIZZA) I walked past Hunan Fifth Avenue (opposite the Empire State Building). It proudly states that it's Jerry Seinfeld's favorite Chinese restaurant. (Too bad the show used Tom's Restaurant for all those scenes.) On the menu are "scallion pancakes (Chinese pizzas)." A Dow Jones database check showed a large 238 hits for "Chinese pizza," but only about four hits with "scallion pancake" added. About five articles, starting with 1-1-1989, mentioned "Chizza," but that's all for that neologism. There doesn't seem to be an established form to this item yet. The earliest I could find is the NEW YORK TIMES, 3 October 1976, pg. 17, Chinam restaurant in Southold: "We can also recommend the savory spring onion pancake, billed as 'Chinese pizza.'" --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD A local deli-type place around here in New York City is serving "Zuni bread." It's not in the OED. DARE? The American Memory database has a photo of this from 1926, but the notes should not necessarily mean that we had "Zuni bread" in 1926. Someone from the Zuni tribe is shown baking bread. The earliest Dow Jones database hit is in the ARIZONA DAILY STAR, 19 November 1990 (Dow Jones coverage of this periodical starts just about here), pg. 1FM: "Besides the chili peanuts other Southwestern touches could include: Zuni bread and grean bean-jicama salad." --------------------------------------------------------------- IN THE SOUP OED has April 1889 for "in the soup." 1 September 1888, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: McLaughlin won with King Crab in the easiest possible fashion, and Speedwell finished "in the soup." 28 October 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: A Yale student returning from abroad is disgusted with the slow appreciation of the English people. He says that on the trip home he had occasion to make use of the phrase "in the soup." As it was new to British ears, it provoked the curiousity of one old gentleman, who begged an explanation. The embarrassed young man began with a cheerful and homely example. "If," said he, "I started for America, and my trunk by some inadvertence was detained in Liverpool, I should be sadly inconvenienced, would I not? Well, then, my trunk would be in the soup, and so would I." "But," broke out the Englishman, "I cannot see what your trunk has to do with an article of diet."--_New-Haven Palladium_. 3 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: Slang interprets slang. It is easy to see the force of the remark "Don't be a clam," when you reflect how frequently the clam is in the soup.--_Toronto Globe_. --------------------------------------------------------------- COME AND GET IT! I haven't yet looked on other databases. 26 December 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 1: These early ones had to wait in the wind for three hours before they heard the cry of "Come and get it," and by the time serving began additional thousands were in the hungry queue. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 05:08:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 01:08:12 EDT Subject: Navajo Fry Bread; Zuni Bread Message-ID: NAVAJO FRY BREAD The OED revision is getting close, so I checked to see if it had "Navajo fry bread." Nope, not in there. OED doesn't even have a "fry bread" at all! Both DARE and John Mariani's ENCYLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK have this under "fried bread" or "fry bread." I'll probably beat DARE's 1950 date on Saturday. With this bread, you can make a "Navajo taco" or "Indian taco." Here are the Google numbers: Navajo fry bread--654 hits Navajo fried bread--53 Navaho fry bread--24 Indian fry bread--2,540 Indian fried bread--199 Fry bread--9,730 Frybread--2,378 Fried bread--8,350 Navajo taco--601 Indian taco--1,050 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD Not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. Not in OED. DARE? The important work here is by Frank Hamilton Cushing. See his "Zuni Breadstuff," MILLSTONE 9 (1884), nos. 1-12, and 10 (1885), nos. 1-4. Edition in book form with introduction by John Wesley Powell, Indian Notes and Monographs, vol. 8, Museum of American the Indian, Heye Foundation, 1930. Reprinted 1974. It's long and a little difficult to summarize here. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 4 15:24:49 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:24:49 -0500 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" Message-ID: At 8:45 PM, 10/3/02 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >IN THE SOUP > > OED has April 1889 for "in the soup." > > 1 September 1888, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: > McLaughlin won with King Crab in the easiest possible fashion, >and Speedwell finished "in the soup." > > 28 October 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > > A Yale student returning from abroad is disgusted with the slow >appreciation of the English people. He says that on the trip home >he had occasion to make use of the phrase "in the soup." As it was >new to British ears, it provoked the curiousity of one old >gentleman, who begged an explanation. The embarrassed young man >began with a cheerful and homely example. "If," said he, "I started >for America, and my trunk by some inadvertence was detained in >Liverpool, I should be sadly inconvenienced, would I not? Well, >then, my trunk would be in the soup, and so would I." "But," broke >out the Englishman, "I cannot see what your trunk has to do with an >article of diet."--_New-Haven Palladium_. > > 3 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > Slang interprets slang. It is easy to see the force of the >remark "Don't be a clam," when you reflect how frequently the clam >is in the soup.--_Toronto Globe_. A few questions arise: 1) What is the origin of slang "in the soup"? Is it connected with the cartoons showing a captured white man sitting in a pot of boiling water with the savage natives standing around? (I'm assuming these cartoons existed already in the 19th century). OED2 doesn't give the etymology. Jesse, does HDAS perhaps have something on this? Would there be perhaps a still earlier attestation? 2) The earliest examples of "in the soup" are now clustered in 1888-1889. Did something happen in 1888 or shortly before to bring "in the soup" to public attention or into print? 3) Do any other languages have a similar slang expression? 4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say "Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a hopeless situation? Gerald Cohen P.S. For easy access, here is OED2's treatment of "in the soup" ("soup," nn. meaning 2b): in the soup, in a difficulty. orig. U.S. 1889 Lisbon (Dakota) Star 26 Apr. 4/2 After collecting a good deal of money, the scoundrels suddenly left town, leaving many persons in the soup. 1898 Pall Mall Mag. Nov. 420 Of course he knows we're in the soupbeastly ill luck. 1915 J. BUCHAN Thirty-Nine Steps ii. 37, I was in the soup that was pretty clear. 1917 LLOYD GEORGE Let. 31 July (1973) 184 Henderson has now put us into the soup & there is no knowing what will happen. 1925 [see EYEBROW 1d]. 1939 H. G. WELLS Holy Terror I. ii. 38 We're in the soup... We've got to do 1914 over again. 1968 Listener 23 May 660/3 You find you may want to move a group of pictures..to a different part of the building, and if the rooms over there are designed for quite a different kind of picture, you're rather in the soup. 1977 C. MCCULLOUGH Thorn Birds xvii. 455, I do feel very sorry for her, and it makes me more determined than ever not to land in the same soup she did. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 4 15:40:36 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:40:36 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. What about Penny Marshall trying to pass as a Milwaukee resident? From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 4 15:42:04 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:42:04 -0400 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: #4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which #denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the #soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say #"Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of #these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a #hopeless situation? FWIW, "goose" comes closer to alliteration and assonance with "cooked" than either other fowl. Just an observation/speculation. -- Mark A. Mandel From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Oct 4 16:01:31 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:01:31 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. >What about Penny Marshall trying to pass as a Milwaukee resident? And Henry Winkler (altho his orign was always somewhat mysterious) From self at TOWSE.COM Fri Oct 4 16:14:40 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > #4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which > #denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the > #soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say > #"Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of > #these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a > #hopeless situation? > > FWIW, "goose" comes closer to alliteration and assonance with "cooked" > than either other fowl. Just an observation/speculation. Nothing to do with golden eggs? Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 17:37:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:37:38 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 11:06:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > How about the Indiana farmers on last week's West Wing. They sounded like > Central Casting combed New England for bit players, and as Josh and Toby got > closer to Cincinnati there was no trace of Upper South. None of them sound > like any Indiana farmers I've ever known. Of course not. As one of the rural girls said, "We're not rednecks". Which leads to a question. I was under the impression that the term "redneck" was used ONLY to apply to a bucolic Southerner. A bucolic Hoosier would be called a "hick" or a "yokel". Correct? According to an article in our local paper, that West Wing episode was filmed somewhere other than in Indiana. Unfortunately I was not prescient enough to save the article, so I can't tell you were it was filmed (but considering that a few previous shows took place on Bartlett's farm in New Hampshire, it could easily have been somewhere in New England and Herbert Stahlke has a good ear). Usually bit roles are played by locals, and the lack of Hoosier accents in the show merely demonstrates the lack of Hoosier accents in the locals who showed up for the casting call. Still you would expect West Wing to have a dialect coach. Or perhaps they don't feel the need for a dialect coach. People who hold top jobs in the White House come from all over the country, so the producers probably tailored each character's regional background to whatever regional accent the actor playing the role has. Having done that, they probably figured they had done their duty about dialects and turned their attention to other matters. Come to think of it, few of the West Wing characters have specified regional origins. President Bartlett made his political career in New Hampshire, where he owns a farm, but he went to high school and probably elementary school in Washington DC, where his father was the principal of the school. C. J. Cregg is the daughter of a schoolteacher somewhere in the Midwest (I forget where) but before joining the Bartlett campaign she was a flack in Hollywood. Donna is from North Dakota (or maybe neighboring Canada), but her dialog is so off-the-wall that nobody notices her dialect. I don't recall any of the others having their birthplaces identified. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Oct 4 18:07:40 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:07:40 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Which leads to a question. I was under the impression that the term > "redneck" was used ONLY to apply to a bucolic Southerner. A bucolic Hoosier > would be called a "hick" or a "yokel". Correct? It's my impression that now, here in the PNW "redneck" can be applied to anyone from any part of the country. I think you are correct that it was originally applied to Southerners but now it seems to have taken on something of a political aspect, whereas "hick, yokel, hayseed" etc. haven't. It also seems to have a certain pride associated with it as in the immortal lyric, "There's no place I'd rather be than right here, with my red neck, white sox and Blue Ribbon beer". I can't recall hearing anyone ever refer to themselves as a "yokel" with even a trace of pride. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 19:50:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:50:11 EDT Subject: Purported Safire commentary Message-ID: The following is from URL http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/smoot/long.html I have no idea whether any of the following is relevant to Mr. Safire, but since we love discussing him on this list, here goes: William Safire's Rules for Writers Remember to never split an infinitive. The passive voice should never be used. Do not put statements in the negative form. Verbs have to agree with their subjects. Proofread carefully to see if you words out. If you reread your work, you can find on rereading a great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing. A writer must not shift your point of view. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. (Remember, too, a preposition is a terrible word to end a sentence with.) Don't overuse exclamation marks!! Place pronouns as close as possible, especially in long sentences, as of 10 or more words, to their antecedents. Writing carefully, dangling participles must be avoided. If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is. Take the bull by the hand and avoid mixing metaphors. Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky. Everyone should be careful to use a singular pronoun with singular nouns in their writing. Always pick on the correct idiom. The adverb always follows the verb. Last but not least, avoid cliches like the plague; seek viable alternatives. - James A. Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 4 20:06:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:06:51 -0400 Subject: Purported Safire commentary In-Reply-To: <83.21c17262.2acf4af3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 03:50:11PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > The following is from URL http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/smoot/long.html > > I have no idea whether any of the following is relevant to Mr. Safire, but > since we love discussing him on this list, here goes: > > > William Safire's Rules for Writers [deleted] That sounds like it could be from Safire's _Fumblerules,_ but I don't have a copy handy to check. Still, lists like that are found all over. Jesse Sheidlower From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Oct 4 20:33:49 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:33:49 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end in -aire). Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most others switch to -ary? Thanks for any help. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 4 22:03:13 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo, vol. 2 Message-ID: For those who may be interested--- I've just privately published a limited edition of the following book: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 2: G-P. Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913. 237 pp.; soft cover. cost: $25 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. Volume 1, published in 2001, is 208 pp.; soft cover; cost: $20 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. For the first printing I've run off 110 copies--10 for my personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I intentionally kept the number of copies low and do not expect the demand to warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete volume 3 (2003) before considering a second printing. The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. This work started as a careful search for the earliest attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of attestations and their exact references). Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri-Rolla. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages research specialty: etymology From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Fri Oct 4 22:25:39 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:25:39 +0100 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo, vol. 2 Message-ID: Please reserve one of the G-P vols. for me. I shall find the pertinent $25.00 and post it soonest. That said, will this cover international postrage? If not, please advise of realistic cost. Best wishes Jonathon From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Sat Oct 5 16:36:26 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:36:26 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021004162107.00a33b30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: There's also "extraordinaire", and if you really want to push it, "ordinaire" in the term "vin ordinaire"; I got these by searching on *aire in the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictioanry CD-ROM. It also gives "nondoctrinaire" and "undoctrinaire." The question of why these borrowings from French retained their French endings and others did not is one I'll leave to the specialists. Wendalyn Nichols At 04:33 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >in -aire). > >Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most >others switch to -ary? > >Thanks for any help. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 17:07:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:07:41 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column Message-ID: TUXEDO TUXEDO is the name of a new movie with Jackie Chan and Jennifer Love Hewitt. The FINANCIAL TIMES has a story on the "tux" this week. OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1889. 24 May 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: Messrs. JAMES McCREERY & CO. exhibit to-day and during this week another invoice of TUXEDO SUMMER SUITS. These Knitted Costumes are far SUperior to any Flan- nel Texture and are exceed- ing in demand any suit they have ever sold; in fact, no lady's summer wardrobe is complete without at least one of these beautiful cos- tumes; also the LITTLE TUXEDO SUIT for children, sizes from 4 to 14 years. The above goods are for sale only by JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadyway and 11th St. 7 June 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: The Little Tuxedo Suit. THe most beautiful novelty of the season for CHildren's wear is our "LITTLE TUXEDO KNITTED SUIT" on exhibition in our window this week. (...) JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadway and 11th St. 13 July 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: TRADE TUXEDO MARK. For the months of July, August, September, and October our KNITTED TUXEDO SUITS have no rival. These suits are ready-made and rarely require any alteration; from their knitted texture they are especially adapted for the Seashore, the Mountains, Yachting, Lawn Tennis, Steamer wear, etc., etc. THE TUXEDO KNITTED SUIT and The Little Tuxedo Knitted Suit For Children's Wear ARE FOR SALE ONLY BY JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadway and 11th St. 22 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: The new "Tuxedo" suit, with soft roll coat, low cut vest and Knickerbockers, for ages 10 to 16 years. (...) _Rogers, Peet & Co._ 5 December 1891, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: WAITERS TO WEAR TUXEDO COATS. (...) A resolution was adopted recommending that waiters hereafter use what is known as the "Tuzedo," which is made of white duck, sack shape, and with long rolling collar. It is proposed to make the matter a national one, with the idea of having the coat adopted in all parts of the country. --------------------------------------------------------------- 88 IN SAFIRE'S COLUMN Here we go again. William Safire's "On Language" column in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES talks about "stop on a dime" and other "dime" stuff. We've discussed this here before. This language is only a mere 75 years old. Safire opens up the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAL SLANG for the only meaningful citation in the column--and can't even spell "Von Vechten" (it's "Von Vechter" here). The ADS-L discussion we had on "88=H.H.=Heil Hitler" is discussed next, and our great Larry Horn is mentioned. The correction of "cakewalk"? Well, it ain't here. Since Kathleen Miller recently posted here, I'll scream this once again: I'M A HUMAN BEING! I'M A HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!!! HUMAN! H-U-M-A-N!!!!!!!!! HOW MANY YEARS MUST I GO THROUGH THIS? ONE YEAR? TWO YEARS? FIVE YEARS? TEN YEARS? MORE? HOW MANY MORE TIMES MUST THINGS LIKE THIS MUST HAPPEN? TELL THE TRUTH! TREAT ME WITH RESPECT! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT KIND OF AN ORGANIZATION IS THIS THAT ALLOWS THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME FOR OVER TEN YEARS? Okay, that's enough shouting. Anyway, congrats to Larry Horn! --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: PARKING FINES As I've said, the AP ran a story that quoted a NYC Department of Finance spokesman as saying that most parking fines hadn't been increased since 1975. I wrote to the AP and told them that I am an administrative law judge, and I know that this is wrong. The AP wrote back yesterday that the spokesman "stands by" what he said, but that the AP is asking him for proof. At least the AP--unlike the NEW YORK TIMES--gets back to you and checks on these things. Hosannah! A similar story also ran October 1st in NEWSDAY. There, the same spokesman said that parking fines hadn't been increased "since 1978." (Also wrong.) Perhaps he stand by both statements? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 18:25:37 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:25:37 EDT Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the Year. Background: my son Joel, a sophomore at Rutgers, last week joined the campus newspaper, The Daily Targum (despite its name it is published in English). As most junior person on the staff, he automatically got the bottom-of-the-totem-pole beat, namely local political scene. His first article was on the new chairman of the city Housing Board. Two working days later Torricelli quits the Senate race and the local political scene is now the hottest beat on the paper. Joel has not written anything all week that has not made page 1. Seat in Senate can shift balance By: Joel Landau 10/02/02 -------------------------- The current power structure of the U.S. Senate is not hard to describe. The Democrats, with the majority, have 50 seats, while the Republicans occupy 49. The real challenge is to decipher what the Senate will look like after the November elections. That's what Jennifer Duffy, managing editor of "The Cook Political Report," attempted to do last Monday night at the Eagleton Institute on Douglas College. The event, entitled "U.S. Senate Elections: What's Happening Across," was designed to shed light on the political landscape and senatorial elections happening all over the country. Duffy's speech, which was mostly concentrated on the national viewpoint of the senate election, ended up with an interesting twist. New Jersey senatorial incumbent Robert Torricelli, D-N.J., dropped out of the race only a half hour before her lecture was scheduled to begin. "Here's the speech — anyone got a match?" joked Duffy as she began her presentation. -------------------------- Story Source: The Daily Targum -James A. Landau (proud papa) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Oct 5 18:47:01 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:47:01 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >Year. WHICH word are you nominating? ? Bethany From self at TOWSE.COM Sat Oct 5 19:14:54 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:14:54 -0700 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy Message-ID: I was reading a restaurant review in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." "Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. I checked with the ADS-L archives to see how much action "jiggy" has had and the answer is, not much. Here's the one and only: "http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007A&L=ads-l&P=R2460" I then trundled off to the new Google News feed and popped in "jiggy". From the assorted news sources Google is covering, there are fourteen uses in the last thirty days (the time window for Google News' archives). Uses range from the San Francisco Chronicle (in the sports section) to the Guardian, the Miami Herald, Entertainment Weekly (not unexpected), Rolling Stone (ditto), E Online (double ditto) and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. BizReport.com had an entire article devoted to CNN Headline News' decision to be more hip, titled "CNN News Gettin' Jiggy With da Jive Talkin'" Anyone know the origin of "jiggy"? Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Oct 5 20:17:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jas. Landau writes: >As most junior person on the staff, he automatically got the bottom-of-the-totem-pole beat......< That position at the bottom of the totem pole is the most easily examined by the close observer...and in this case, was clearly not a bad place to be! A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Oct 5 20:19:59 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: from the archives: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:15:43 -0400 From: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Halls of ivy, Ivy League In-Reply-To: Let me also remind us that we had a detailed discussion not that long ago (July 1998, to be exact) of the obviously related "Ivy League", which I've also seen falsely etymologized--sometimes by my own undergraduates--as deriving from "IV League" (again from the numeral, rather than the feeding tube)... from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is IV. it lives still. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 5 20:25:32 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:25:32 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column In-Reply-To: <13D9023A.221BEBD3.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > William Safire's "On Language" column in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES > talks about "stop on a dime" and other "dime" stuff. We've discussed > this here before. This language is only a mere 75 years old. Safire > opens up the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAL SLANG for > the only meaningful citation in the column--and can't even spell "Von > Vechten" (it's "Von Vechter" here). Actually, Barry, Safire wrote "Van Vechter" and the correct spelling is "Van Vechten." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 20:28:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:28:05 -0400 Subject: Slow as Molasses (1854); Dolly Varden Pie (1872) Message-ID: Sorry for all the typing mistakes lately, but as usual, I'm feeling pretty down. Also, I'm pressed for time on these library computers. JIGGY--I don't often do rap terms because they're covered in the online Rap Dictionary, www.rapdict.com or something like that. --------------------------------------------------------------- SLOW AS MOLASSES Not in DARE, not in the RHHDAS, not in OED, not in Christine Ammer's FRUITCAKES & COUCH POTATOES (1995). Face it--I'm making this one up. July 1854, NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW (MOA--Cornell database), pg. 150: "Yes," was the drawling reply, "but he is--as--slow--as--cold molasses." 9 December 1854, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: "Yes; but he is as slow as _cold molasses_." 9 April 1870, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 238: You're slow as molasses in the winter time. 27 April 1889, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 330: Everybody knew he was slower than molasses in January, like those Pennsylvania Dutch. --------------------------------------------------------------- DOLLY VARDEN PIE 21 September 1872, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 735: Apropos to the season, an exchange gives a recipe for a "Dolly Varden" pie: "Take about four yards of light dough, gather it up in tucks and flounces, crimp the edges, and fill up with fruit; then lay on the over-skirt, fasten it with buttons of dough connected with frills... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 20:30:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:30:21 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column Message-ID: I thought I said that! I dunno anymore. --Barry "It's 4:30! Time's up!" Popik From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 21:27:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:27:04 EDT Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/05/2002 2:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the > >Year. > > WHICH word are you nominating? Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 21:33:21 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:33:21 EDT Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture Message-ID: In the movie "Monsoon Wedding", which takes place in India (I think it is New Delhi) there is a brief scene in which a woman who is holding a popsicle gets annoyed by something someone else says, so she responds by holding her popsicle vertically and jerking it in an upwards direction. In this context the gesture can easily be interpreted as "up your ass!". Does anyone know whether this is a common gesture, in India or anywhere else, and if so what is it usually interpreted as? Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever having encountered before: "sisterfucker". - James A. Landau From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Oct 5 21:47:15 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:47:15 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >> >Year. >> >> WHICH word are you nominating? > >Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) Thanks, Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 5 23:43:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:43:31 -0400 Subject: IV: it lives still In-Reply-To: <200210052019.g95KJxA01720@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: Oh my goodness. On it creeps. Of course I now (after my 5th round of chemo) have a very different association with the "IV league"... larry At 1:19 PM -0700 10/5/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >from the archives: > > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:15:43 -0400 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Halls of ivy, Ivy League > > Let me also remind us that we had a detailed discussion not that long ago > (July 1998, to be exact) of the obviously related "Ivy League", which I've > also seen falsely etymologized--sometimes by my own undergraduates--as > deriving from "IV League" (again from the numeral, rather than the feeding > tube)... > >from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column >(provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, >"Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: > > In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, > and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper > has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. > But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name > "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally > only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is IV. > >it lives still. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From self at TOWSE.COM Sun Oct 6 00:03:57 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:03:57 -0700 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > JIGGY--I don't often do rap terms because they're covered in the online Rap > Dictionary, www.rapdict.com or something like that. I link to it from my site in the wordstuff subsection. RapDict.org, though, defines "jiggy" as n) To have a lot of money or riches. "DKNY, oh my I'm jiggy" -- Junior M.A.F.I.A. (Player's Anthem [1995]). which isn't the way Tom Hanks has used it "Yeah, you know. Jiggy. The way you feel when you're on your ninth coffee of the day. Jiggy. That's what I am." ... nor the way the San Francisco Chronicle restaurant reviewer used it, nor the way Will Smith used in "Getting Jiggy With It." Looking further, "jiggy as in get jiggy, be active" is on the ADS-L Jan 2002 list of words of the year 2001 least likely to succeed. Not in the archives but on the words of the year list. Did I miss it in the archives? Is this a fifth possible definition? "jiggy" means something else again Down Under, according to the Macquarie book of slang . Perhaps a word searching for a meaning. Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sun Oct 6 01:19:45 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:19:45 -0400 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Arnold Zwicky > from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column > (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, > "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: > > In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, > and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper > has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. > But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name > "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally > only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is > IV. Aside from his mistaken derivation of Ivy League, Lee Reich is also wrong, or at best foggy, about ivy. Ivy is ivy, genus Hedera, and people involved with plants at anything beyond the most superficial level know that. The fields of botany and horticulture can provide an interesting paradigm for linguists. There are in essence two separate parallel languages, and those of us involved in the field slip from one into another almost without distinction, unless we are very careful. Reich is almost right when he says that the word "ivy" lacks botanical meaning. In fact, the word does not exist in the botanical language, which is so prescriptive that there is actually a Congress that sets the usage rules. There is Hedera and Parthemocissus and Senecio and Cymbalaria and Rhus and more. On the other hand, say "ivy" to any botanist or horticulturist and he knows exactly what you mean -- Hedera. Not Boston ivy or Swedish ivy or German ivy or Virginia creeper. That is, unless the word is spoken by someone fairly ignorant about plants, in which case it is necessary to ask a series of questions to find out what the person is talking about. If you can. There are many similar examples. Geranium to a botanist is a very different plant from the geranium sold at KMart. A serious gardener knows that lilies are lilies, Lilium, and not daylilies or calla lilies or ... well, you get the point. Mr. Reich is confused. And he is not helping his readers understand the differences in botanical and common nomenclature. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 01:26:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:26:36 EDT Subject: "Fruit Cake" notes (1846--) Message-ID: Christine Ammer's FRUITCAKES & COACH POTATOES, AND OTHER DELICIOUS EXPRESSIONS (1995) notes that the OED has "fruit cake" from only 1854. Merriam-Webster has 1848. Andrew F. Smith, who the NEW YORK TIMES reported is working on the upcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FOOD AND DRINK (sic), queried rec.food.historic about "fruit cake" in December 2000. Supposedly, it's in THE POCUMTUC HOUSEWIFE (1805) and Eliza Acton's MODERN COOKERY FOR PRIVATE FAMILIES (1845), among other places before 1854. I haven't checked NEW YORK TIMES full text yet, but I've been checking other databases for "fruit cake" and "fruitcake," also with the word "tin" added. LITERATURE ONLINE DATABASE (Prose) Hall, Baynard Rush, 1798-1863 Something for Every Body: Gleaned in the Old Purchase, from Fields Often Reaped. By Robert Carlton (pseud.) (1846) ...sizes and colors, and eating fruit cake and ices, sipping lemonade,... Lippard, George, 1822-1854 Paul Ardenheim, the Monk of Wissahikon (1848) ...slice cut off from the fruit-cake of aristocracy! MAKING OF AMERICA (CORNELL) April 1846, THE AMERICAN WHIG REVIEW, pg. 380: ...sponge cake and fruit cake. MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-JOURNALS) December 1849, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 739: ...she had a fruit cake to give them on their birth-day. December 1890, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 642: It was a piece of neglect next to a sin in her eyes if there was not at all times a month-old loaf of fruit cake put away in the tin cake-box in the cool sstore-room "in case of company." MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-BOOKS) MRS. GOODFELLOW'S COOKERY AS IT SHOULD BE (1865): FRUIT CAKE. (...) These cakes will keep a year, if attention is paid to their being put in a tin case, and covered tightly in an airy place. They improve by keeping. AMERICAN MEMORY (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) (Letter) W. G. Catrell to Abraham Lincoln, June 23, 1864 (Send fruit cake). (Photo) November 1939 Removing fruit cakes from tin in which they were baked at bakery in San Angelo, Texas. EARLY CANADIANA ONLINE Traill, Catherine Parr THE FEMALE EMIGRANT'S GUIDE, AND HINTS ON CANADIAN HOUSEKEEPING (Toronto: Maclear, 1854) SWEET FRUIT-CAKE. (...) This is sold in the confectioners under the name of mince-pie and pie-cake. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:26:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:26:54 -0400 Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture In-Reply-To: <8a.1f8154a2.2ad0b4a1@aol.com> Message-ID: In Louisville in the 1940s and early 50s we never jabbed our popsicles into the air, although we both said up your ass and had at least the left hand on inner side of elbow with right lower arm up-lifted which clearly had that meaning. I'm sure we would have adopted the popsicle insult if only someone had introduced it. We were precursors of iconicity. dInIs >In the movie "Monsoon Wedding", which takes place in India (I think it is New >Delhi) there is a brief scene in which a woman who is holding a popsicle gets >annoyed by something someone else says, so she responds by holding her >popsicle vertically and jerking it in an upwards direction. > >In this context the gesture can easily be interpreted as "up your ass!". > >Does anyone know whether this is a common gesture, in India or anywhere else, >and if so what is it usually interpreted as? > >Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever having >encountered before: "sisterfucker". > > - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:29:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:29:31 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Well, many WOTYs have been POTYs (e,g, the first WOTY "Bush lips" >[written "Bushlips" but not pronounced that way] and soccer mom"). >No need to enhance what has already been established. ADS plays fast >and loose with the concept "word." (But all linguistics does so far >as I can tell.) dInIs >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >>> >Year. >>> >>> WHICH word are you nominating? >> >>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" > >O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > >Thanks, >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:48:16 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:48:16 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a word for a linguistic item?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Well, many WOTYs have been POTYs (e,g, the first WOTY "Bush lips" >>[written "Bushlips" but not pronounced that way] and soccer mom"). >>No need to enhance what has already been established. ADS plays fast >>and loose with the concept "word." (But all linguistics does so far >>as I can tell.) Yeah - you really cannot say "linguistic item of the year," ("LIOTY") and get anyone but a linguist to listen, I suppose. Bethany From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 6 02:35:29 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:35:29 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021004162107.00a33b30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >in -aire). > >Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most >others switch to -ary? I think "doctrinaire" is the odd one (along with derivatives such as "nondoctrinaire" etc., of course). The excuse for "debonair[e]" is perhaps the same as that for "laissez-faire"/"laisser-faire": these adjectives are from phrases ending in noun "air[e]" and verb "faire" respectively, not from the usual suffix "-aire" = "-ary". If this excuse does not suffice, perhaps the lack of a Latin cognate "debonarius" or so might have played a role; but I believe that when "debonair[e]" was adopted the etymology from "de bon[ne] air[e]" probably was obvious (and in this case -- coincidentally -- apparently also true). In English, "extraordinaire" (like the marginal cases "[vin] ordinaire", "[cordon] sanitaire") is not a fully naturalized word: it follows its noun and generally continues to put on French aires: using this word is tantamount to pretending to speak French. So why is "doctrinaire" odd among adjectives? My naive guess is that it's because the word was first adopted as a noun, and late. There are several such nouns, mostly adopted ca. 1800 or later: "concessionaire", "commissionaire", "legionnaire", "secretaire", "millionaire", etc. Earlier nouns with this French suffix "-aire" (Latin "-arius" I guess) were naturalized to English "-ary" generally; I suppose after ca. 1800 it was no longer fashionable to alter them so. I suppose "doctrinaire" is the only one of these adopted nouns which became conventional as an English adjective. Adjectives in "-aire" which are adopted as adjectives have always generally become "-ary", I think. Maybe some of the experts can add something, or correct me. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 02:50:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:50:36 -0400 Subject: Killer Shrimp (1988); Zuni Bread (1972?) Message-ID: KILLER SHRIMP I was walking by J.D.'s on East 52nd Street when I looked at the menu and saw today's special: KILLER SHRIMP. Just what we need. There are snipers on the loose, and now I've got to worry about killer shrimp. Google has 778 "killer shrimp" hits. (Maybe I shouldn't say "hits.") The Dow Jones database has 115 "killer shrimp" hits. The first is "You hear the one about the attack of the killer shrimp?"--Tall Fish Tales, in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 3-22-1987. The thing we're looking for, though, is on the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office database. "Killer Shrimp" has a first use of 27 April 1988, at Marina Del Rey, CA. This is from the LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS, 28 February 1993, pg. L7 (Dow Jones database): Killer due: Marina del Rey's popular Killer Shrimp is coming to the San Fernando Valley. (...) Boiled shrimp are offered with bread, pasta or rice and the so-called "killer" sauce. --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD (continued) John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK lists "zwieback," so "Zuni bread" probably won't be last in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD. Here's a recipe, anyway. I hope DARE is interested. PUEBLO INDIAN COOKBOOK: RECIPES FROM THE PUEBLOS OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST Compiled and Edited by Phyllis Hughes Sante Fe, NM: Museum of New Mexico Copyright 1972, 1977 Second Edition, Revised 1977 Third Printing, Revised Edition 1981 Fourth Printing, Revised Edition 1982 Pg. 10: _Zuni Bread_ 1 1/2 cups whole wheat flour 1 cup shelled, ground sunflower seeds 1 tablespoon baking powder 1 teaspoon salt 2 eggs 4 tablespoons shortening 4 tablespoons honey 1 cup milk 1/2 cup whole sunflower seeds Mix together dry ingredients. Beat eggs, shortening and honey thoroughly and add to flour mixture with milk. Stir until smooth. Fold in whole seeds. Grease bread pan and flour bottom, and spoon in batter. Bake at 350 degrees for one hour. Cool on rack for 10 minutes in pan. Remove, but do not slice until cold. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 07:25:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:25:57 EDT Subject: RLT; ATC; Spinoccoli; Garbage Burrito; Popeye Eggs; Vietnam Hashing Message-ID: Yet another food round-up. I thought that I'd covered some of these terms before, but I guess not. RLT--Rashers (bacon), Lettuce, Tomato. I spotted it at O'Neill's, an Irish pub here in the city. A Google check shows that it's becoming standard Irish pub fare. I don't have the Dow Jones database handy now to date the term. ATC--Avocado, Turkey, Cheese. About 49 Google hits, but I spotted ATC as "avocado, tomato, cheddar." SPINOCCOLI--Pizza Uno trademarked this term (for its spinach and broccoli pizza) with first use of 12-3-1985 and first use in commerce of 12-11-1985, but a Google check shows 121 hits, mostly NOT Pizza Uno. GARBAGE BURRITO--La Cocina restaurant here says "Garbage Burrito--Everything we have around." There are about 15 Google hits. The "Garbage Burrito" is like the New Orleans "Debris Sandwich," only different. POPEYE EGGS--Also about 15 Google hits. Served at Dock's on 42nd and 3rd, Popeye Eggs are "Scrambled Eggs with Black Forest Ham and Sauteed Spinach." VIETNAM HASHING--Attached below is a message of Vietnam's "Hash House Lingo" that I found interesting. Why does Lighter's HDAS have "babyshit" (mustard) but not "afterbirth" (ketchup)? From: Ted Gittinger (TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com) Subject: Re: Damn Yanky Up View this article only Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam Date: 2001-06-28 15:27:01 PST "Bill Clarke" wrote in message news:tjlvfklcq3m4f4 at corp.supernews.com...> Ted Gittinger < TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com> wrote in message> news:PSs_6.102221$tb6.25622057 at typhoon.austin.rr.com...> >> > "Bill Clarke" < clarke at livingston.net> wrote in message> > news:tjjoo4bhkk2986 at corp.supernews.com...> > > Ted Gittinger < TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com> wrote in message> > > news:rnb_6.100506$tb6.24731022 at typhoon.austin.rr.com...> > > >> > > > WEre you marching to Sbisa or Duncan?> > > >> > > > ted> > >> > > Sbisa, where every meal was a banquet the fish year. Duncan the > > other 3 years.> > >> > > Damn that was a long time ago but I can still remember some of> > > those ass chewings.> > >> > > Bill Clarke> >> > Shoot the bullneck, please.> >> > ted>> > >> > >>> Would you like some afterbirth or baby-shit to go with that T-Bone?>> Wonder what they call it now in the politically correct age?>> Bill Clarke> F Troop, 17th CavI have plumb forgot most of the A&M chow hall language. But carrots ="sunshine," spinach = "Popeye," eggs = "cackle,"potatoes = "spuds" (whatelse?), salt and pepper = "sand and." "Afterbirth" was ketchup and "babyshit" was mustard.Oh, yes, "cush" was dessert, and no "fish" got cush without earning it. Oneway to earn it was to tell a funny story that so revolted the other seven atthe table that you were given dessert as sort of a merit badge.I heard stories at chow that still curdle my blood to think about.Sweete William, b/c me if all this puzzles you about my checkered career.Warm regards,tedwho is re-heating Chinese for dinner tonight.>>>Message 26 in thread From: Bill Clarke (clarke at livingston.net) Subject: Re: Damn Yanky Up View this article only Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam Date: 2001-06-29 07:24:57 PST And the little pickled peppers were Tiger Dicks. "fish Clarke, looks likeyou need a few Tiger Dicks".And then your fish buddies would ask for permission to have a Tiger Dickalso so you wouldn't be alone. We bonded like the men of F Troop and Ifound my best life long friends there.If you tell me of your checkered past will you then have to kill me. Bill ClarkeF Troop, 17th Cav From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 6 07:53:03 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 00:53:03 -0700 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy In-Reply-To: <3D9F3A2E.2BDD523B@towse.com> Message-ID: It's not surprising that terms such as "jiggy" show up in mainstream newspapers. I found 69 such items in over 120 articles in the Daily Press, the newspaper of the Virginia Peninsula. My findings are published in American Speech, Winter 1999, Vol. _74,4,_ 369-388. --- Towse wrote: > I was reading a restaurant review > > in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and > not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is > something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of > starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." > > "Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd > had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. > > I checked with the ADS-L archives to see how much action "jiggy" > has had and the answer is, not much. Here's the one and only: > "http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007A&L=ads-l&P=R2460" > > I then trundled off to the new Google News feed and popped in > "jiggy". From the assorted news sources Google is covering, there > are fourteen uses in the last thirty days (the time window for > Google News' archives). > > Uses range from the San Francisco Chronicle (in the sports > section) to the Guardian, the Miami Herald, Entertainment Weekly > (not unexpected), Rolling Stone (ditto), E Online (double ditto) > and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. > > BizReport.com had an entire article devoted to CNN Headline News' > decision to be more hip, titled "CNN News Gettin' Jiggy With da > Jive Talkin'" > > Anyone know the origin of "jiggy"? > > Sal > -- > 1900+ useful links for writers > ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 6 13:45:35 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:45:35 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: Didn't we have "Word (or Phrase) of the Year" in 1997 and other years? Thomas Paikeday lexicographer (www.paikeday.net) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bethany K. Dumas" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: "Anyone got a match?" > On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > >> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the > >> >Year. > >> > >> WHICH word are you nominating? > > > >Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" > > O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > > Thanks, > Bethany From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Oct 6 13:54:16 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:54:16 +0100 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Further definition of '(get) jiggy': (to become) sexually excited; to have intercourse. The Macquarie def. of 'jiggy' is only as a noun, meaning 'sexual intercourse', though this is seen as rooted in the pidgin 'jig-a-jig', which, surely, is coincidental rather than etymologically linked to the contemporary 'jiggy'. Jonathon Green From kpvincent at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 6 14:13:50 2002 From: kpvincent at HOTMAIL.COM (Kelly Vincent) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:13:50 +0000 Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture Message-ID: >Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever >having >encountered before: "sisterfucker". This is just a translation of a very common insult in in Hindi/Urdu. I believe it's used a bit more than "motherfucker", though those are the two favorites. Kelly _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 6 15:24:51 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:24:51 -0500 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: I'm preparing an article on slang "ax(e)" (= musical instrument), with full gratitude and credit to all the ads-l contributors to this topic of two years ago; I'll also contact each one individually. But I have one main point of uncertainty: whether to connect this "ax(e)" with slang "chops" (jazz term denoting musical ability or skill). This "chops" seems readily derivable from jazz "chops" (= "a trumpet player's strength of embouchure"--HDAS), which in turn derives from "chops" (= mouth or lips). So perhaps "ax(e)" (= musical instrument) derived from the differing meanings of "chops": 1) mouth; skill in playing e.g., a trumpet, 2) strikes with an axe. The very knowledgeable members of this list often see things that I miss. The above semantic hypothesis (axe as something one chops with) seems plausible to me, but am I perhaps missing something here? The inclusion of the "chops" discussion is just an addendum to the "ax(e)" treatment and could easily be removed if it presents problems. For ready access I present HDAS information after my signoff. Gerald Cohen HDAS says of ax(e) meaning #4: "sense development unknown; perh. sugg. by _sax_; perhaps infl. by _swing_. Jazz: a musical instrument, esp. one on which jazz or rock music is played, as a saxophone, trumpet, or guitar." The first attestation cited is from 1955. Meanwhile, HDAS says of _chops_: meaning #1a: "Now esp. Black English: the mouth or lips;..." -- first attestation cited: 1589. #2a: "Jazz. a trumpet player's strength of embouchure" -- first attestation cited: 1947. #2b. "Orig. Jazz: musical ability or skill; (hence) skill or ability of any sort." -- first attestation cited: 1968. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 6 17:52:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:52:18 -0400 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy In-Reply-To: <3D9F3A2E.2BDD523B@towse.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Towse wrote: #I was reading a restaurant review # #in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and #not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is #something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of #starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." # #"Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd #had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. And what does it mean? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 6 17:54:37 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:54:37 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # #>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the #>> >Year. #>> #>> WHICH word are you nominating? #> #>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" # #O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) So did I. It's never a good idea to put content in the subject line (only). -- Mark A. Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 6 19:34:22 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:34:22 -0500 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: Jonathon Green (editor, _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_) privately sent me a message in reply to my query about axe/chops, and with his permission I now share it with ads-l. JEL in his message is Jonathan Lighter, editor of (the invaluable) Historical Dictionary of American Slang. Gerald Cohen >As regards chops = skill, I'm surprised that JEL missed the pre-1968 cites >from available in Robert S. Gold: _Jazz Lexicon_ (1964) > >1947 Metronome Jan. 32: He might not have the chops he used to have, but his >ideas are always fine >1958 Down Beat 24 Jul. 14: While it lasted it helped musicians who weren't >working because they could keep up their chops >1962 Down Beat 27 Sep. 41: He's got a lotta chops, but he played way too >long > >Gold (p. 8) also etymologizes _ax/axe_ on the basis of cites from PADS Nov. >1958 p. 43, in which the 'fancied resemblance in shape' of the saxophone is >equated with that of an axe, and from Esquire 1959 p. 70H) in which the axe >is seen as generic for 'any tool of work.' > >But as to the ax/chops link, he has nothing, frustratingly, to offer. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 19:47:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:47:05 -0400 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Derby Pie; Cream Pie/Cake Message-ID: CHEW THE SCENERY A NEW YORK TIMES story I spotted on the web (took forever to download, so I don't know the date) is "Anthony Hopkins Won't Chew the Scenery." (Hannibal the Cannibal can't be considered with "American food," oh please, dear no!) The best discussion of "chew the scenery" is on the web site Mavens' Word of the Day, by those Random House people, whever they are. Dorothy Parker's 1930 quip is mentioned. J. Brooks Atkinson, the TIMES drama critic, was a part of Dorothy Parker's circle. However, full text of the NEW YORK TIMES doesn't show any early quote! FWIW, the earliest in the database looks like 26 June 1947, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19: And while Miss Fontaine gives a worthwhile performance, there are times when she literally chews the scenery. --------------------------------------------------------------- DERBY PIE There's no secret to this Louisville dish. It's trademarked. DARE doesn't include it. Perhaps it needs more workers from Louisville? A check of the online NEW YORK TIMES doesn't show hits before the 1980s. The trademark records are interesting. It's trademarked by Walter S. Kern and Leandra C. Kern of Kern's Kitchen in Louisville, Kentucky. However, the first use is 1954-12-31 and the first use in commerce is 1964-07-31. The Kerns sat on the "Derby pie" recipe for ten years before they sold it? --------------------------------------------------------------- CREAM PIE/CAKE John Mariani uses an 1855 date for Boston "cream pie," which is really a "cream cake." OED, as usual, is in the dark. A check of the databases turns up some interesting stuff. 8 November 1852, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2: And now comes the dessert--not of Charlotte Russe or Tapioca Pudding; but of cream pies, which you have probably not seen upon city tables; and fritters, which last you are with maple molasses; followed by that most delicious Fall pippins and cracked butternuts. December 1832, THE NEW-ENGLAND MAGAZINE (MOA database), pg. 490: ...cream-cake... MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT-BOOK (1850; MOA-Books). Eight hits for "cream cake." December 1857, HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE (MOA database), pg. 68: ...no cream-cakes like Boston cream-cakes... --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T. BEATING A DEAD HORSE (continued): SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES'S "NEW YORK" ISSUE If that Sunday New York Times Magazine special "New York" issue doesn't make me feel sad, today's City section sure turns the trick. James Saunders (who collaborated with Ric Burns on the New York documentary, which they're continuing still) interviews celebrities like Molly Ringwald about what New York means to her. And I thought the Nigella Lawson columns were bad. If I see a New York Times profile of Posh Spice, asking her about her feelings about New York, and if she replies that firemen are her real heroes, I'm outta here. Just asking, but I don't I live here? Can't anyone know what I've done? From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Oct 6 20:06:26 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:06:26 +0100 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Derby Pie; Cream Pie/Cake In-Reply-To: <69F5A410.4AFB17F1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > CHEW THE SCENERY > > A NEW YORK TIMES story I spotted on the web (took forever to > download, so I don't know the date) is "Anthony Hopkins Won't Chew > the Scenery." (Hannibal the Cannibal can't be considered with > "American food," oh please, dear no!) The best discussion of "chew > the scenery" is on the web site Mavens' Word of the Day, by those > Random House people, whever they are. Dorothy Parker's 1930 quip > is mentioned. J. Brooks Atkinson, the TIMES drama critic, was a > part of Dorothy Parker's circle. However, full text of the NEW > YORK TIMES doesn't show any early quote! FWIW, the earliest in the > database looks like 26 June 1947, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19: Having just answered a subscriber's question about this phrase (see ), I can temporarily claim some small expertise. Professor Lighter cites an example from 1895 in RHHDAS, which proves that the expression is from the theatre, not films. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 20:46:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0400 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Dutch Oven (1737) Message-ID: CHEW THE SCENERY (continued) The Mavens' Word of the Day answer (given in 2000, when the site existed) mentions Lighter and the RHHDAS scenery chewing of the 1890s. I did not mean to imply that Michael's Quinion's more recent answer was not the best, also! Clearly, he can chew with Sir Anthony Hopkins and the best of them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH OVEN Another item that I thought I'd covered, but maybe not. OED has 1769 for "Dutch oven." It's not in DARE. I found many citations just now on the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE database. The earliest is 5 May 1737, in this list: ...Sauce-pans, Dutch Ovens and Stew Pans... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 00:30:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:30:37 -0400 Subject: "Pretzel" in America Message-ID: This may all be explained in the next volume of DARE, but probably not. The standard "pretzel" story is that Julius Sturgis baked his first pretzel in Lititz, PA, in 1850, after receiving the recipe from a hobo. He established the first commercial pretzel factory there in 1861. See www.sturgispretzel.com. OED has "pretzel" from 1856; Merriam-Webster has 1838. MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL 18 September 1858, pg. 959. This is a story of Baron Frederick Von Oertel, who sold "Bretzels" in St. Louis and was well known as "Bretzel Fritz." In part: "His pride was thoroughly broken down, and for a livelihood the Baron actually took to selling 'bretzels,' a kind of pastry in much favor with the Germans. He continued at this paltry but honest business for sixteen or eighteen years, and gained the appellation of 'Bretzel Fritz.'" This 1858 story dates before the Sturgis Pretzel Factory of 1861. But "Bretzel Fritz" was selling them in St. Louis for SIXTEEN OR EIGHTEEN YEARS? This story, from a St. Louis newspaper, had no reason to lie at this early a date. Is Sturgis sunk? MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-BOOKS) Crippin, William G. (1820-1863) GREEN PEAS, PICKED FROM THE PATCH OF INVISIBLE GREEN, ESQ. (c. 1856) Pg. 232: ..."der krout and der pretzel." 1 September 1857, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 1: Without taking into account the babies in arms, or the little children who could bite _bretzel_ and sip lage bier, there were twenty thousand people... PRETZELS AND MUSTARD 3 January 1895, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 6 (From Dayton, Ohio): Each day 100 loaves of bread and one barrel of pretzels, with mustard, are given away as a free lunch, while sandwiches containing 10 cents worth of cheese are disposed of for half that amount. SOFT PRETZELS 30 January 1959, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 52: SOFT wholesale pretzel busn, for sale, terrific buy, gd location EV 1-4531. SOFT PRETZEL STANDS IN NEW YORK CITY 28 December 1960, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 30: _Pretzels Ride New Wave_ _Of Popularity in Subway_ (...) The stands are operated by the Metropolitan Soft Pretzel Corporation, two of whose executives--Sam Schwartz and Herbert Koppleman--first thought of selling pretzels from stands in front of a major chain store in Westbury, L.I., in 1956. Until then, the items were hawked by street peddlers from baskets with tall poles. Sales were limited even when candy stores sold them, too. (...) Mr. Knobler suggests toasting the pretzels and then topping them with smooth cheese or mustard. The latter is a favorite combination in Philadelphia, where the pretzel first achieved popularity in this country. PRETZEL SLANG 25 June 1961, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM52: The pretzel has even crept into our slang: French horns are sometimes called "pretzels" by their players, and a "pretzel bender" can mean a musician who plays one, a wrestler, or a man who drinks too much. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 7 02:22:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:22:10 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 02:34:22PM -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Jonathon Green (editor, _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_) privately > sent me a message in reply to my query about axe/chops, and with his > permission I now share it with ads-l. JEL in his message is Jonathan > Lighter, editor of (the invaluable) Historical Dictionary of American > Slang. > > >As regards chops = skill, I'm surprised that JEL missed the pre-1968 cites > >from available in Robert S. Gold: _Jazz Lexicon_ (1964) > > > >1947 Metronome Jan. 32: He might not have the chops he used to have, but > >his > >ideas are always fine > >1958 Down Beat 24 Jul. 14: While it lasted it helped musicians who weren't > >working because they could keep up their chops > >1962 Down Beat 27 Sep. 41: He's got a lotta chops, but he played way too > >long I'm surprised that JG missed the placement of the 1947 cite above in JEL--it's the first cite at sense 2.a., 'a trumpeter's strength of embouchure'. I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 7 02:30:20 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:30:20 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: <20021007022210.GA4657@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ > which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier > book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the > 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly > means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but > the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by > _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). My recollection is that _Jazz Talk_ is substantially the same book as _Jazz Lexicon_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 7 02:36:28 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:36:28 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 10:30:20PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ > > which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier > > book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the > > 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly > > means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but > > the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by > > _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). > > My recollection is that _Jazz Talk_ is substantially the same book as > _Jazz Lexicon_. It's not. I mean, it is substantially the same book, but the differences are notable enough that you do need to look at both. I'm sort of surprised by JG's comment, because I had previously though that the main differences were the adding of new material in _Jazz Talk,_ but his post suggests that cites and perhaps discussion that was in the Lexicon were removed for Talk. I should probably wait until tomorrow to respond, when I'll actually have both books together, but I'm quite sure that there's a lot in Talk that's not in Lexicon. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 06:43:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 02:43:12 EDT Subject: Yankee Pot Roast (1877); Jazz Creek Message-ID: YANKEE POT ROAST YANKEE Pot Roast? I thought the METS were on pot! I didn't even check this on the New York Times database, asssuming this term was at least mentioned by Washington Irving. To my surprise, both OED and Merriam-Webster have 1881, as does, of course, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. Making of America (Mich.-Books, Mich.-Journals, and Cornell) all turned up NOTHING for "pot roast." I was shocked! Not even the Library of Congress's American Memory database has a hit for "pot roast"! NOTHING on the three big databases of Americana! The Early Canadiana database gave ALL AROUND THE HOUSE, OR, HOW TO MAKE HOMES HAPPY (Toronto: J. Robertson, 1881) by Mrs. H. W. Beecher, pg. 136. This is a different 1881 citation from the one in OED. It takes the "pot roast" recipe from BUCKEYE COOKERY (1877). For more information, see the CENTENNIAL BUCKEYE COOK BOOK by Andrew F. Smith, available at an online bookseller near you. I'll check the NEW YORK TIMES later today (Monday) for a more well done "pot roast." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JAZZ CREEK Gerald Cohen is lecturing on "jazz" this December. I previously said that there was no "jazz" in Alaska--it wasn't the name of a town, river, mountain, creek, glacier, or anything. A check of PLANSUS shows two hits, both for "jazz creek," and both in the West. There is a Jazz Creek in Clearwater, Idaho, and a Jazz Creek in Clackamas, Oregon. Does Frank Abate or anyone else know approximately when these Jazz Creeks were named? From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 7 08:56:36 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:56:36 -0700 Subject: 1737 Dutch oven cite Message-ID: Thanks to Barry for turning up the earlier "Dutch oven" cite. I'm working on an article (slowly) on the meanings of the term, and speakers' interpretations of it. Any further grist to cook will be appreciated. Rudy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0400 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chew the Scenery; Dutch Oven (1737) DUTCH OVEN Another item that I thought I'd covered, but maybe not. OED has 1769 for "Dutch oven." It's not in DARE. I found many citations just now on the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE database. The earliest is 5 May 1737, in this list: ...Sauce-pans, Dutch Ovens and Stew Pans... ------------------------------ From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 7 09:02:05 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:02:05 +0100 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: In re Gold. I haven't read Jazz Talk, only Jazz Lexicon. And looking yet again at the entry for 'chops', I accept that here Gold states 'see 1962 quote' as regards 'technique' but as I trust Jesse would agree, the entry, at least in the Lexicon, is less than crystal-clear - 'lumped togther' as he puts it - and I would still suggest that the 1947 Metronome cite is open to interpretation. Is Robert Gold available for _his_ dictum? Jonathon Green From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Oct 7 09:32:38 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:32:38 -0400 Subject: 1737 Dutch oven cite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudy T said: >> Thanks to Barry for turning up the earlier "Dutch oven" cite. I'm working on an article (slowly) on the meanings of the term, and speakers' interpretations of it. Any further grist to cook will be appreciated. << Here's something to check out, anyway -- the negative use of "Dutch" in English. Examples include _Dutch courage_, _go Dutch_, etc. So is a Dutch oven a small thing that a Dutchman would think of as an oven, even though it lacks a source of heat? I think this stems from English jealousy towards the Dutch, esp. as the two empires were a-building, say 17th and 18th centuries. The Dutch kept beating the English to important markets and sources of goods (e.g., the so-called Spice Islands), and it hurt English pride. So they "got back" by castigating the Dutch in various expressions. Didn't help matters, as the Dutch continued as preeminent merchants, despite the tiny size of the country, the lack of a big army or navy, etc. The Netherlands remains a very important trading nation to this day, far more important than its population would suggest. It is a very wealthy country, too, and the Dutch invest their euro (was guilders) heavily all over the world. Dutch pension funds are a huge source of capital internationally. Then there's re-insurance. . . . OK, enough. Frank Abate From travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 7 12:24:39 2002 From: travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM (Travis Hall) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:24:39 +0000 Subject: My grandmother's favorite word Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Oct 7 12:48:32 2002 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:48:32 -0400 Subject: kyarny Message-ID: DARE shows "kyarny' as a variant for "carrion" in Alabama, Georgia, and s Appalachians. It has the sense of carrion crow, which is a turkey vulture or black vulture. Beyond the DARE information, perhaps it has some use as a negative or derogatory reference to people. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 7 13:19:43 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:19:43 -0500 Subject: Kyarny/carny Message-ID: Perhaps "carny" as in carnival/circus worker? ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Hall To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: My grandmother's favorite word While visiting my grandmotehr over the weekend, she used a word I have never heard, but would like to know more about. The word was (I have to guess at the spelling), "Kyarny." She called my uncle a, "Kyarny, good fer nuthin'!" Can anyone ehlp me with this word, which I suppose means lazy? Travis Scott Hall Elder Dragon Beta Lambda 456 >From: Mark A Mandel >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Anyone got a match?" >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:54:37 -0400 > >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >#On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: ># >#>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >#>> >Year. >#>> >#>> WHICH word are you nominating? >#> >#>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" ># >#O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > >So did I. It's never a good idea to put content in the subject line >(only). > >-- Mark A. Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 7 15:05:47 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:05:47 -0400 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Here's some early uses of "jiggy." Note that the first cite below, if historically accurate, would indicate usage by foreigners during World War II, and that the same phrase ("jiggy jig") seems to have made its way to Bali. "Jig," a lively dance, seems one possible derivation. >>"Another Time, Another Place," a film about Italian prisoners-of-war sent to work in Scotland during World War II. . . . When Luigi and Janie first meet, there is little time wasted on idle banter. The soldier from the south gets right down to business. "You like me?" Luigi asks. Janie replies, "Aye." With the ice being effectively broken, Luigi pops the big question, "Is possible, yes, we make jiggy jig?" Although Janie is suitably outraged by the request, it doesn't take long for her to succumb to the sensual thrills Luigi has to offer.<< Washington Post, Oct. 10, 1984. >>It was a palm-sized trinket, a jiggy-jiggy whose movable parts depicted a couple coupling.<< Chicago Sun-Times, Mar. 3, 1986. >>The American Repertory Theater first presented "The Day Room" last spring in the New Stages series, under Michael Bloom's direction. Restaged by David Wheeler and performed with a creepy exactitude, it's now part of the repertory at the Loeb. . . . John Bottoms is funny and unsettling as a crazy patient, and there are hypnotic moments of jiggy paranoia from Harriet Harris, Nestor Serrano, Isabell Monk and Harry S. Murphy.<< Boston Globe, Feb. 21, 1987. >>Kuta can be sleazy but good for people-watching. Tourists on an after-dinner stroll will quite likely be accosted with "Jiggy jig?", which we took to be local lingo for either "Would you like to dance?" or more likely, "Would you like cheap sex?" More forward locals simply come straight out and say: "Cheap girls?"<< Business Times (Singapore), Nov. 11, 1995. John Baker From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Oct 7 16:46:15 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:46:15 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: I had always supposed that in jazz, an "ax" = "instument" because an ax was a tool that was swung when used. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Cohen Date: Sunday, October 6, 2002 11:24 am Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? > I'm preparing an article on slang "ax(e)" (= musical instrument), > with full gratitude and credit to all the ads-l contributors to this > topic of two years ago; I'll also contact each one individually. > > But I have one main point of uncertainty: whether to connect this > "ax(e)" with slang "chops" (jazz term denoting musical ability or > skill). This "chops" seems readily derivable from jazz "chops" (= "a > trumpet player's strength of embouchure"--HDAS), which in turn > derives from "chops" (= mouth or lips). > So perhaps "ax(e)" (= musical instrument) derived from the differing > meanings of "chops": 1) mouth; skill in playing e.g., a trumpet, 2) > strikes with an axe. > > The very knowledgeable members of this list often see things that > I miss. The above semantic hypothesis (axe as something one chops > with) seems plausible to me, but am I perhaps missing something here? > The inclusion of the "chops" discussion is just an addendum to the > "ax(e)" treatment and could easily be removed if it presents problems. > > For ready access I present HDAS information after my signoff. > > Gerald Cohen > > HDAS says of ax(e) meaning #4: "sense development unknown; perh. > sugg. by _sax_; perhaps infl. by _swing_. Jazz: a musical instrument, > esp. one on which jazz or rock music is played, as a saxophone, > trumpet, or guitar." > The first attestation cited is from 1955. > > Meanwhile, HDAS says of _chops_: > meaning #1a: "Now esp. Black English: the mouth or lips;..." -- first > attestation cited: 1589. > #2a: "Jazz. a trumpet player's strength of embouchure" -- first > attestation cited: 1947. > #2b. "Orig. Jazz: musical ability or skill; (hence) skill or ability > of any sort." -- first attestation cited: 1968. > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 7 17:30:10 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:30:10 -0700 Subject: jazz place names In-Reply-To: <161ca0a161cbdc.161cbdc161ca0a@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Someone asked earlier (sorry, I hit delete a bit too hastily) if there is any information on Jazz Creek, Clackamas County, Oregon. Jazz Creek is a small stream that flows into the Collowash River (just north of Dunno Creek) in the SE corner of the county in a remote part of the Mount Hood National Forest. There is no history of the name in McArthur's Oregon Geographical Names (4th ed.). USGS has listed it since it published a computer generated list of Oregon place names in 1983. Perhaps the name was given by the Forest Service, but that is just a guess. You can see it on a topographical map available through: http://www.topowest.com/Oregon/Places/index.html allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 17:45:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:45:33 -0400 Subject: Yankee Pot Roast (1932) Message-ID: I just checked on NEW YORK TIMES, and "pot roast" is from 1895. Too late! "Yankee pot roast" seems late, too. 19 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: Yankee Pot Roast With Noodles Choice of Vegetables 30 cents at Windsor Cafeterias (O.T.: Thanks to Allen Maberry for all that "jazz." It seems strange that there are not more "jazz" place names--but then again, where is Skiddooville? Now, for Idaho's "Jazz Creek"...) From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Oct 7 18:51:21 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:51:21 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021005123208.00a603c0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Here's one for ya. My Gramma says, "That ain't worth diddley squat." Where did 'diddley squat' come from? From simon at IPFW.EDU Mon Oct 7 15:42:51 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:42:51 -0500 Subject: and Monsoon Wedding sister Message-ID: The brother - sister relation is a particularly important bond. In exogamous areas, the daughters in a family marry outside the immediate locality, often miles, and in some cases, into families states away (e.g. a Hindu family of Gujerati background living in Banaras, in Uttar Pradesh, might well marry their daughters into families in Gujerat). Ideally, the brother is the one who, in a sense, watches the sister's back. He is the one who is her immediate protector, the one who checks out the men in the prospective in-law family, the one who travels to the sister's new home, who brings her what she needs, who brings her back to her natal family at least for the birth of the first child. Committing violence on one's sister, or any sexual act involving one's sister, is particularly egregious, and sister-f**ker is a particularly provocative label. One the other hand, or, perhaps, because of that hand, sister-f**ker is sometimes the label of choice. beth >>> preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU 10/05/02 20:29 PM >>> In Louisville in the 1940s and early 50s we never jabbed our popsicles into the air, although we both said up your ass and had at least the left hand on inner side of elbow with right lower arm up-lifted which clearly had that meaning. I'm sure we would have adopted the popsicle insult if only someone had introduced it. We were precursors of iconicity. dInIs From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 7 19:19:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:19:29 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <1034016681.3da1d7a938285@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: At 2:51 PM -0400 10/7/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: >Here's one for ya. My Gramma says, "That ain't worth diddley squat." >Where did 'diddley squat' come from? First cite in RHHDAS: She ain't never had nothin'-not eben doodly-squat, and when she gits uh chance tuh git holt uh sumpin de ole buzzard is gone on uh rampage. (Zora Neale Hurston (1934), Jonah's Gourd Vine, cited in OED entry) Lots of other examples from Nexis are discussed in my paper: Flaubert Triggers, Squatitive Negation, and Other Quirks of Grammar (in J. Hoeksema et al., eds., Perspectives on Negation and Polarity Items, 173-200. Amsterdam: John Benjamins) Among other things, I discuss both "licensed" squatitives (That ain't worth doodly-squat/shit/fuck-all/...), which are analogous to negative concord constructions in languages like Spanish and Italian ("Non ho visto niente") or non-standard English ("I didn't see nothing"), and "unlicensed" squatitives (You know doodly-squat/fuck-all about it), which are more like negative polarity items in English ("I didn't see anything"). In both cases, "doodly-squat" and its analogues represent minimal entities on some scale, or "minimizers", as Bolinger has called them. We've discussed this a bunch on the list, with lots of examples, especially "jack-shit". Larry From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Oct 7 19:51:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: Crackberry In-Reply-To: <20E0396A.2A038B43.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Just back from a consulting gig in DC. We don't have them here in the islands, but everyone on the Hill is wearing a Blackberry, a kind of super two-way messaging pager. Capitol Hill staffers are so addicted to their Blackberries for storing large amounts of contact information, staying abreast of breaking news, and flashing messages back and forth that the device is referred to as a Crackberry. rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 22:49:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:49:01 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini, Fagioli (1912) Message-ID: NYU's special collections had just these two ITALY (Southern) Baedekers--1890 and 1912. I checked them both today. I couldn't copy them and wrote notes by hand, so please forgive any errors. ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS THIRD PART. SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY WITH EXCURSIONS TO THE LIPARI ISLANDS, MALTA, SARDINIA, TUNIS, AND CAORFU by Karl Baedeker Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1890 (Tenth Revised Edition) Pg. XX: _Minestra_ or _Zuppa_, soup. _Consume_, broth or bouillon. _Zuppa all Sante_, soup with green vegetables and bread. _Risa con piselli_, rice-soup with peas. _Risotto_, a kind of rice-pudding (rich). _Macaroni al burro_, with butter; _al pomidoro_ or _alla Napolitana_, with tomatoes, see p. xxi. _Manzo_, beef. _Lesso_ or _bollito_, boiled meat. _Fritto_, fried meat. _Fittura mista_, liver, brains, artichokes, etc., fried together. _Frittata_, omelette. (M-W has 1931?-ed.) _Arrosto_, roasted meat. _Bisteca_, beefsteak. _Coscietto_, loin. _Arrosto de vitello_, or _di mongana_, roast-veal. _Testa di vitello_, calf's head. _Fegato di vitello_, calf's liver. _Costoletta_ or _braccioletta di vitello_, veal-cutlet. _Potate_, potatoes. _Quaglia_, quail. _Tordo_, field-fare. _Lodola_, lark. _Sfoglia_, a kind of sole. _Antepasto, principi alla lavola_, or _piattini_, hot relishes. _Funghi_, mushrooms (often too rich). Pg. XXI: _Prosciutto_, ham. (M-W has 1929, OED 1938--ed.) _Salami_, sausage. _Pallo_, or _pollastro_, fowl. _Gallotta_, _Gallinaccia_, turkey. _Umidi_, meat with sauce. _Stufatino_, ragout. _Erbe_, or _Legumi_, vegetables. _Piselli_, peas. _Lenticchie_, lentils. _Cavoli fiori_, cauliflower. _Fave_, beans. _Fogiuolini_, French beans. _Sale_, salt. _Mostarda_, simple mustard. _Senape_, hot mustard. _Ostriche_, oysters (good in winter only). _Frutta_ or _Giordinetto_, fruit-dessert. _Crostata di frutti_, fruit-tart. _Crostata di pasta sfoglia_, a kind of pastry. _Fragole_, strawberries. _Pesa_, peas. _Pomi_ or _mele_, apples. _Persici_, peaches. _Uva_, bunch of grapes. _Limone_, lemon. _Arancio_ or _Portogallo_, orange. _Pane francese_ or _mecanico_, bread made with yeast (the Italian is without). _Finocchio_, root of fennel. _Formaggio_, or in S. Italy _gaccio_, cheese. _Vino rosso_ or _neso_, red wine; _bianco_, white; _asciutto_, dry; _dolce_, sweet; _vin del paese_, wine of the country. The _Maccaroni_ of Naples is much esteemed, but is generally hard, and should therefore be ordered "ben cotti." It is usually flavoured with _pomi d'oro_ (tomatoes), of which the Neapolitans are very fond. _Sea-fish_ and _ragosta_, a kind of lobster, excellent. Shell-fish soup (_Zuppa di vongole_), a good but indigestible dish. (...) Cafe noir (_Caffe Nero_) is most commonly drunk (15-20c. per cup). _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (20-30c.); or _caffe e latte_, i.e. with the milk served separately, may be preferred (30-40c.). The usual viands for lunch are ham, sausages, cutlets, and eggs (_uova de bere_, soft; _toste_, hard; _uova al pratto_, fried). Ices (_sorbetto_, or _gelato_) of every conceivable variety are supplied at the cafes, particularly in Naples, at 30-90c. per portion; or half-a-portion (_mezza_) may generally be odered. _Granita_, or half-frozen ice (_limonata_, of lemons; _aranciata_, or oranges; _di caffe_, of coffee), is chiefly in vogue in the afternoon. SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY WITH EXCURSIONS TO SARDINIA, MALTA, AND CORFU HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1912 (Sixteenth Revised Edition) (Items here are not necessarily in order. They were mixed with some of the above--ed.) Pg. XXIII: _Mostarde francese_, French or sweet mustard (mixed with vinegar). _Pasta asciutta_, macaroni... Pg. XIV _Merluzzo_, _baccala_, cod. _Calamaio_, cuttle-fish. _Frutta di mare_, mussels, shell-fish, etc. _Zuppa di pesce_, fish soup (strongly flavoured owing to the cuttle-fish). _Zuppa de vongole_, clam soup (somewhat indigestible). _Palpettine_, small meat-dumplings. _Pasticcio_, pate, patty. _Asparagi_, asparagus (usually green). _Broccoli_, _cavoli flori_, cauliflower. _Fagioli_, haricot-beans. _Zucchini_, small pumpkins. (OED & M-W have 1929--ed.) _Crochetto_, croquettes of rice or potatoes. _Gnocchi_, small dumplings. _Dolce_, sweet dish. _Dudino_, pudding. _Crostata_, tart. _Frittata_, omelette. _Zuppa Inglese_, a kind of trifle. (OED has under "Zuppa," after about 1961!--ed.) Pg. XXV: _Caffe latte_ is coffee served with warm milk (25-50c.; "_cappuccino_," or small cup, cheaper). (M-W has 1927 for "caffe latte," 1948 for "cappuccino." But who uses these obscure Italian words?--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 7 23:46:28 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:46:28 -0500 Subject: Origin of the emoticon :-) Message-ID: I noticed the following item in the German magazine _Spiegel_ (Sept. 21, 2002, p.68: (title): INTERNET BITTE LÄCHELN Viele Jahre war sie verschwunden, nun ist sie wiederentdeckt worden, pünktlich zu ihrem 20. Jahrestag: die erste Internet-Nachricht, in der ein Emoticon verwendet wurde. Mitarbeiter von Microsoft und der Carnegie Mellon University haben has erste :-) auf einem Backup-Tape aufgestöbert, auf dem Beiträge gespeichert sind, die am 19. September 1982 in einem Diskussionsforum getippt wurden. Die Nachricht stammt von Scott Fahlman, der damals as Informatiker an der Carnegie Mellon University arbeitete. Fahlman ärgerte sich darüber, dass ironische Beiträge zu oft nicht verstanden wurden, deshalb schrieb er: "Ich schlage vor, dass von nun an eine Zeichensequenz einen Witz kennzeichnen soll, nämlich :-)." Zuvor hatte es andere Vorschläge gegeben, # oder \_/, aber es war Fahlmans Idee, die sich durchsetze und dutzendfach variiert wurde. Und heute gibt es für fast jede Stimmung das passende Zeichen. [Translation]: (title): INTERNET PLEASE SMILE For many years it had disappeared, now it has been rediscovered, just in time for its 20th anniversary: the first Internet message in which an emoticon was used. Co-workers of Microsoft and Carnegie Mellon University have located the first :-) on a backup-tape on which entries are stored, which were typed on Sept. 19, 1982 in a discussion forum. The message comes from Scott Fahlman, who at the time was working as a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon University. Fahlman was irritated that too often ironic entries were not understood. For that reason he wrote: "I suggest that from now on a sequence of signs should indicate a joke, namely :-). Previously there had been other suggestions, # or \_/, but it was Fahlman's idea, that gained acceptance and was varied in dozens of ways. And today for almost every mood there is an appropriate sign. Gerald Cohen From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 8 01:45:14 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:45:14 -0400 Subject: Crackberry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Crackberry" has been around for at least the last two years. It's been submitted to the Jargon Watch column several times, though I've never used it. My favorite "crack" usage is "cardboard crack," used to refer to collectible card games such as "Magic: The Gathering" and "Pokemon." There's also "Evercrack," which I have used in the column. This refers to Everquest, the highly addictive multiplayer online game that's destroyed more than a few relationships, nest eggs, etc. Gareth On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 03:51 PM, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > Just back from a consulting gig in DC. We don't have them here in the > islands, but everyone on the Hill is wearing a Blackberry, a kind of > super > two-way messaging pager. Capitol Hill staffers are so addicted to > their > Blackberries for storing large amounts of contact information, staying > abreast of breaking news, and flashing messages back and forth that the > device is referred to as a Crackberry. > > rhk > From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 03:33:04 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:33:04 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ink-Stained Wretches (1921); Pizazz (1937) Message-ID: Barry Popik has asked me to pass along the following message; everything below this line is from him. -- Jesse Sheidlower INK-STAINED WRETCHES Where does "ink-stained wretches" come from? With computers, perhaps the term no longer applies nowadays. The first four NEW YORK TIMES hits are all by Alexander Woollcott, and the first few are all in the theatrical pages. 18 September 1921, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 68: Certainly, it seems to prey upon the ink-stained wretches who turn out books and plays. I'm going through the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE from 1934, looking at the early columns of Lucius Beebe. On Sunday, 8 April 1934, section V, pg. 2, cols. 6-8, Beebe talks about the late Henry Taylor Parker, famed drama critic of the BOSTON EVENING TRANSCRIPT. Did Woolcott get the term from Parker? From col. 7: ...and urging heaven to witness the harrowing incompetence of office boys (whom he invariably designated as "wretches")... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PIZAZZ There are "pizazz" hits in the classified ads of 22 May 1913 and 19 May 1935, but I'm goin blind finding those. This one hints at the origin. 26 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3 ad: _THIS THING CALLED PIZAZZ_ Pizazz, to quote the Harvard Lampoon and Harpers Bazaar, is an indefinable dynamic quality. Certain clother have it. _TAILORED WOMAN_ From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 03:45:25 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:45:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Irish Soda Bread (1934); London Broil (1934) Message-ID: The following is another posting forwarded for Barry Popik; none of it below this line is mine. -- Jesse Sheidlower IRISH SODA BREAD New York City has lots of Irish immigrants, so I looked for the full "Irish soda bread" (not just "soda bread"). The NEW YORK TIMES has it from only 30 January 1938. 19 March 1934, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, pg. 10, col. 5: (Photo caption--ed.) This unusual loaf, bespecked with raisins, is Irish soda bread. (...) Irish soda bread is a flavorful variation from the more usual varieties, and a bakery in Third Avenue makes a specialty of this generally elusive product. The round loaves, like hot cross buns, have crosses on the top, the texture of the ready made loaf resembles that of French bread, although it is less porous and contains raisins. Two sizes are sold, the small one costs a dime and an extra large loaf is 20 cents. Inquire of the Food Markets editor for the name of this shop. (Gee, thanks. I'll ask right now--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LONDON BROIL OED was way off on "London Broil." I'd spotted it in New York City in 1932. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES "London Broil" is in an ad for Gallaghers Restaurant on 1 November 1934, pg. 34. This recipe is from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE magazine section, 15 April 1934, pg. 17, col. 3: _London Broil_ 1 leftover rare roast of beef 2 tablespoons butter Salt an pepper Parsley or watercress Carve the roast into six 1/4-inch slices. Place in a hot skillet in which the butter has been melted. Sear each slice, not allowing more than 1/2 minute to a side. Sprinkle with salt and pepper. Place on a hot platter, (Col. 4--ed.) garnish with parsley or watercress and serve immediately. THis makes 8 servings. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 8 08:44:47 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:44:47 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini, Fagioli (1912) In-Reply-To: <69A2BDBA.4175C153.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Just a comment -- Barry's findings in the 1890 and 1912 copies of Baedeker's guides for Italy are very significant, it seems to me. There are old Baedeker guides around (they are usually red, I think, and quite compact, as they were for travelers). I've seen them at tag sales, used bookstores, and such, and they're cheap. I can check the few I have for food term antedatings. I never thought to do it before. Thanks again, Barry, for your diligence. Frank Abate PS: I think that there were several antedatings of MW and OED because the diets of the lexos there are too bland. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 8 10:53:19 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 05:53:19 -0500 Subject: pizzazz (was: Ink-Stained Wretches (1921); Pizazz (1937) Message-ID: >At 3:26 AM +0000 10/8/02, bapopik at juno.com wrote: >PIZAZZ > > There are "pizazz" hits in the classified ads of 22 May 1913 and >19 May 1935, but I'm goin blind finding those. This one hints at >the origin. > > 26 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3 ad: >_THIS THING CALLED PIZAZZ_ >Pizazz, to quote the Harvard Lampoon and Harpers Bazaar, is an >indefinable dynamic quality. Certain clothes have it. _TAILORED WOMAN_ A few years ago I wrote a working paper on this term: "Towards the origin of _pizzazz_," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 29, no. 1, Oct. 1999, pp.14-17. I'm pressed for time today. Tomorrow I can reproduce parts of the article for ads-l, although for now I would just mention the wordsmithing creativity of the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ of ca. 1913, the futuristic-sounding words in -azz- (not the least important being "jazz"), and specifically "lallapazzazza" (based obviously on "lallapaloosa"); drop the "lalla-" part of "lallapazzazza" and the result is pretty close to "pazzazz," one of the attested spellings of "pizzazz." For "lallapazzazza," here is an item from my _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_ (just published); the entry is from _San Francisco Bulletin_: LALLAPAZZAZZA 'lallapaloosa' -- March 28, 1913, p.19/1-2; 'New Oakland Park One Fine Place, Is Opinion of Fans'; subtitle: 'Recreation Park [in S.F.] Must Now Take Second Place to Grounds Across the Bay.' by 'Scoop Gleeson'; col. 1: 'A futurist would likely set down his impression of the new baseball grounds as "a lallapazzazza."' More tomorrow. Gerald Cohen (editor, _Comments on Etymology_) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 8 13:20:36 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:20:36 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini Message-ID: On 8 Oct 2002, at 4:44, Frank Abate wrote: > PS: I think that there were several antedatings of MW and OED because the > diets of the lexos there are too bland. Well, perhaps, but the blander our diets, the quieter our work environment, which is very helpful to us in making tight deadlines. But you of all people ought to know, Frank, that pasta e fagioli is about as bland as food gets! Your fellow half-Sicilian and fagioli-eater, Joanne D. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 8 16:10:31 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:10:31 -0700 Subject: a new complement-taking verb Message-ID: i suppose it was inevitable, given the metaphorical extension of "masturbate" i talked about briefly a little while ago. here's a sentence from a posting to the newsgroup sci.lang today (from a poster notably down on the chinese): >While Chinese dorks were masturbating how great their Chinese >character inventions were, Koreans took a step further to educate >the common people. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Tue Oct 8 16:10:43 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:10:43 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? Message-ID: The December 8, 1975 issue of Business Week says that "In the 1950s, the big 'anchor stores' that acted as magnets for customers of suburban shopping centers -- and often owned them -- demanded and won considerable say over the rest of the tenant mix." This has got me thinking that the phrase "anchor store" was around in the 50s. Can anyone confirm this or give an earliest date for this phrase? Thanks. Paul From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 16:15:21 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:15:21 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? In-Reply-To: <073601c26ee5$45588330$ef9afea9@paul> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 12:10:43PM -0400, Paul McFedries wrote: > The December 8, 1975 issue of Business Week says that "In the 1950s, the big > 'anchor stores' that acted as magnets for customers of suburban shopping > centers -- and often owned them -- demanded and won considerable say over > the rest of the tenant mix." This has got me thinking that the phrase > "anchor store" was around in the 50s. Can anyone confirm this or give an > earliest date for this phrase? We have two examples from 1960 in our files. Nothing from the '50s. Jesse Sheidlower OED From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 8 16:45:16 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:45:16 -0700 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: duane campbell: >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Arnold Zwicky >> from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column >> (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee >> reich, "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: >> In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, and >> is applied to any number of vining plants... >Aside from his mistaken derivation of Ivy League, Lee Reich is also >wrong, or at best foggy, about ivy. Ivy is ivy, genus Hedera, and >people involved with plants at anything beyond the most superficial >level know that. >The fields of botany and horticulture can provide an interesting >paradigm for linguists. There are in essence two separate parallel >languages, and those of us involved in the field slip from one into >another almost without distinction, unless we are very careful... i was going to comment on that. as someone who grew plants of the genus Geranium in his garden in ohio and now grows plants of the genus Pelargonium (commonly called 'geraniums') in his garden in california, i have trouble negotiating the vocabulary. calling pelargoniums 'pelargoniums' seems pedantic (like insisting on referring to tomatoes, eggplants, zucchini, etc. as 'fruits' rather than 'vegetables') and probably wouldn't mean anything to non-specialists, so i end up calling pelargoniums 'geraniums' and geraniums 'true geraniums' or 'wild geraniums'; 'cranesbill' would be better, but only plant people seem to be familiar with that name. on the lily (vs. daylily, lily of the nile, peruvian lily, etc.) and ivy (vs. boston ivy, swedish ivy, etc.) fronts, though, i am adamant: 'lily' is Lilium, 'ivy' is Hedera. (i see that the Sunset Western Garden Book, which is aimed at serious amateurs, agrees with me.) 'daisy' is hopeless, and SWGB doesn't even give it an entry with a cross-reference. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 8 17:18:05 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? In-Reply-To: <20021008161521.GA21576@panix.com> Message-ID: The only cite I found in our files for "anchor store" was from 1985, which seems suspiciously little and late; it may be that slips have been pulled for Collegiate editing that haven't been refiled yet. In any case, I haven't seen anything antedating Jesse's 1960s cites. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 8 20:51:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:51:45 -0400 Subject: "quick a feet" Message-ID: A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 8 22:31:00 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:31:00 -0400 Subject: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >passport. dInIs >A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... > >In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional >Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from >some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just >about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners >nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he >explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for >the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused >on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver >shifted horses mid-sentence: > >"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >have that quick a feet." > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 9 00:20:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:20:16 EDT Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke Message-ID: I saw the book NEW YORK, YEAR BY YEAR (2002) by Jeffrey Kroessler at my local Barnes & Noble. Kroessler is president of the Society for New York City History (SNYCH), and he credits Peter Salwen in the introduction. I e-mailed Kroessler (as I've e-mailed Salwen for the past seven years, without a response) that it's long past time to get the "Big Apple whore theory" off the web. Unlike Salwen, Kroessler e-mailed back. The "whore theory" was all a joke! Yes, we'd known all along that not a single "true fact" checked out. But the point is, it's on the New York Public Library's web site as the truth! It takes up half the box in LET'S GO NEW YORK 2002! It was mentioned as true last year in the SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST and in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN! Despite my constant efforts, the African-American responsible for "the Big Apple" has never been honored by the city. SNYCH could have at least HELPED. I told Kroessler again to take the "whore joke" off the web. I guess Kroessler and Salwen both think it's still funny. Barry Popik (letter attached below) Subj: Re: Get Salwen to remove his "Big Apple" libel from the web! Date: 10/8/2002 9:13:54 AM Eastern Standard Time From: kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) It's a joke. And obviously so, as there are several clues that are obvious. Jeff Kroessler From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Oct 9 03:30:08 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:30:08 -0500 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >>passport. > >dInIs > I think it's the border between North and South. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics > >>A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... >> >>In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional >>Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from >>some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just >>about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners >>nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he >>explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for >>the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused >>on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver >>shifted horses mid-sentence: >> >>"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >>have that quick a feet." >> >>larry > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 9 04:27:22 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:27:22 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: Arnold's exasperation over the distinction reminded me of long-buried memories of my first year in California (at UCLA), when I was quickly corrected every time I expressed admiration and amazement at the "geraniums" growing so luxuriantly everywhere. After awhile I learned to make the distinction, though "geraniums" sold here in Tucson often look suspiciously like pelargoniums. Reminds me also (re an earlier discussion) of the sign in Safeway here for "yams" posted above a box (from California) labeled "sweet potatoes". Maybe not everything from California sweeps the whole country. Rudy From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 9 05:46:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:46:51 -0700 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to > >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no > >>passport. > > > >dInIs > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the union in 1861. McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 9 09:48:19 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 04:48:19 -0500 Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke Message-ID: This is a bizarre development. An author (Mr. Kroessler) with pretensions to credibility puts his credibility behind an explanation which collapses upon examination There's not a shred of evidence in favor of the whore theory for NYC's sobriquet "The Big Apple," and yet its veneer of plausibility has gained it some adherents among the public. The "several clues" about the falseness of the theory may be obvious to Mr. Kroessler, but they are cryptic at best to the public, which seems totally unaware of them. If this is intended as a joke, where is the laughter? The more appropriate term is "hoax." Is SNYCH (Society for New York City History) a bona-fide historical society, or is it also intended as a joke? The name sounds official, which of course adds to the public's willingness to accept the whore-theory as a bona fide possibility. Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages University of Missouri-Rolla editor, _Comments on Etymology_ author of a book on the origin of the name "The Big Apple," plus several follow-up articles on the subject (with full credit to Barry Popik for his discoveries in this field). One follow-up article concerns the whore theory. At 8:20 PM -0400 10/8/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:20:16 EDT >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke >Comments: cc: gersh.kuntzman at verizon.net, enosthroop at yahoo.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2002 00:20:23.0209 (UTC) >FILETIME=[A88F2190:01C26F29] > > I saw the book NEW YORK, YEAR BY YEAR (2002) by Jeffrey Kroessler at my >local Barnes & Noble. Kroessler is president of the Society for New York >City History (SNYCH), and he credits Peter Salwen in the introduction. > I e-mailed Kroessler (as I've e-mailed Salwen for the past seven years, >without a response) that it's long past time to get the "Big Apple whore >theory" off the web. > Unlike Salwen, Kroessler e-mailed back. > The "whore theory" was all a joke! > Yes, we'd known all along that not a single "true fact" checked out. But >the point is, it's on the New York Public Library's web site as the truth! >It takes up half the box in LET'S GO NEW YORK 2002! It was mentioned as true >last year in the SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST and in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN! > Despite my constant efforts, the African-American responsible for "the Big >Apple" has never been honored by the city. SNYCH could have at least HELPED. > I told Kroessler again to take the "whore joke" off the web. I guess >Kroessler and Salwen both think it's still funny. > >Barry Popik >(letter attached below) > >Subj: Re: Get Salwen to remove his "Big Apple" libel from the web! >Date: 10/8/2002 9:13:54 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: HREF="mailto:kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu">kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu >To: Bapopik at aol.com >Sent from the Internet (Details) > > > >It's a joke. And obviously so, as there are several clues that are >obvious. >Jeff Kroessler From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 9 10:07:00 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 06:07:00 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" Message-ID: Larry H noted: >> A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." << As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor of his throwing arm. Frank Abate From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 9 12:12:57 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:12:57 -0400 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope that runs right through Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois (for the territory under discussion). Go listen if you don't believe me. dInIs What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no passport. dInIs I think it's the border between North and South. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 9 12:33:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:33:53 EDT Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes Message-ID: YAMS/SWEET POTATOES I've been reading through some vegetarian magazines. From VEGETARIAN TIMES (www.vegetariantimes.com), October 2002, pg. 63: Yams? DId someone say yams? "Those things that most people think are yams are not yams," says Jessica Harris, PhD, a culinary historian specializing in African, American and South American foods and a professor at Queens College CUNY in Manhattan. (Isn't Queens College in QUEENS? Does anyone edit copy anymore?--ed.) "Although thousands of Southerners will call them yams until the day they die (UNTIL THE DAY THE YAMS DIE?--ed.), a sweet potato is most definitely not a yam." The sweet potato (_Ipomoea batata_) is a member of the morning glory family, _Convovulaceae_. Its skin is usually coppery-colored, and its flesh ranges from yellow to orange and tastes decidedly sweet. A yam, on the other hand, is a member of the _Disocorea_ family. Yams are big, hairy, scaly and usually have a whitish flesh that is not sweet. Neither is related to the white potato, _Solanum tuberosum_. (Pg. 63--ed.) Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ (which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes being grown by Colonial settlers. The word "yam" stuck and has for centuries. To add to the confusion, Louisiana sweet potato growers in the 1930s collectively started using the word "yam" in marketing efforts to distinguish their sweet potatoes from those grown in North Carolina and other Eastern states. MISC. The VEGETARIAN TIMES includes an article on meditation. VEGGIE LIFE has an ad to "Increase Breast Size" on page five; I missed back issues on "Natural Menopause" and "Sarah McLachlan Profile." As I said, I don't subscribe to these magazines. HEROINES--From VEGGIE LIFE (Autumn 2002, www.VeggieLife.com), pg. 13, col. 1: "Hero subs aren't just for him. Women often make the mistake of building a vegetarian diet around salads and pasta, ending up short of protein, iron, and zinc. So, here's a solution that provides 68 percent of a woman's protein for the day, and over half of what a man requires. Make the sandwiches with just one style of veggie meat or use several. Try veggie pepperoni, chicken, turkey, salami, ham, deli slices, or a mix. Some brands are fortified with iron and zinc." MUSCLE MUFFINS--In VEGGIE LIFE, pg. 15. The author doesn't tell us, but this name is trademarked. SOYCICLE--A VEGGIE LIFE article in the Summer 2001 back issue. Only one Google hit! AFGHAN BREAD WITH SPINACH--Recipe in VEGETARIAN TIMES, pg. 28. "Afghan bread and the seasoning _zahtar_ are sold at Middle Eastern markets and some well-stocked supermarkets." Many Google hits. TVP or textured vegetable protein--VEGGIE LIFE has a nice little glossary on page 61. It includes this term and "blackstrap molasses," "nutritional yeast," "Szechuan peppercorns," and "tofu, pressing." OED has "TVP" from July 1968. Trademark records show that Archer Daniels Midland registered first use 2 May 2002 for "unflavored and meat and poultry flavored vegetable protein food." From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Wed Oct 9 12:08:37 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:08:37 -0400 Subject: "Mango" for Green Peppers In-Reply-To: <200210090422.AAA121630@f05n16.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: Hello: I was remembering that my mother from Eastern Pennsylvania used to call green peppers "mangos". Her friend from Indiana did the same, and I have also heard that it was used in Ohio. Does anyone know the origin of this use of "mango"? Thank you in advance Elizabeth -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 9 13:40:12 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:40:12 -0400 Subject: a new complement-taking verb In-Reply-To: <200210081610.g98GAVC08107@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: That's brilliant. Kind of the opposite development that "ejaculate" underwent! Ben On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > i suppose it was inevitable, given the metaphorical extension of > "masturbate" i talked about briefly a little while ago. here's a > sentence from a posting to the newsgroup sci.lang today (from a poster > notably down on the chinese): > > >While Chinese dorks were masturbating how great their Chinese > >character inventions were, Koreans took a step further to educate > >the common people. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 14:16:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:16:47 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:07 AM -0400 10/9/02, Frank Abate wrote: >[Re McCarver and his > >"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >have that quick a feet."] ><< > >As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I >recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after >him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was >honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things >after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor >of his throwing arm. > >Frank Abate I'm sure you and Dave Wilton are both right; Tennessee it is. And with apologies to dInIs, I'm not that confident I'd be able to distinguish a Tennessee from a Kentucky speaker; I agree they're both south of the relevant border (and north of another one; I can tell McCarver isn't from Georgia or Alabama). L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 14:19:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:19:34 -0400 Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes In-Reply-To: <7d.2ee7b6fe.2ad57c31@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:33 AM -0400 10/9/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >YAMS/SWEET POTATOES > > I've been reading through some vegetarian magazines. From VEGETARIAN >TIMES (www.vegetariantimes.com), October 2002, pg. 63: > >... Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ >(which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes >being grown by Colonial settlers. I always love it when they say that. Now what was the European word for "to eat" again? And the Asian word for "sweet potato"? larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Oct 9 14:38:35 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:38:35 -0400 Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes Message-ID: from larry horn quoting barry popik: >... Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ >(which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes >being grown by Colonial settlers. I always love it when they say that. Now what was the European word for "to eat" again? And the Asian word for "sweet potato"? _______________________________________ I've always thought it odd but my Bavarian mother-in-law (b. 1910) insisted that nyam-nyam was the childish way kids appreciated a good tasting husarkrapfen! It reminds me of what Swadesh used to say--that the Zuni word for "blood" was the same as the Hebrew-- that chance coincidences do occur. -db _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 15:53:11 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:53:11 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone (he happens to be the leading tax law scholar of all time) has asked me the following question: When he was a boy in Rochester, N.Y. around 1925 he used the expression "honest to God and hope to die." He is wondering whether there is any dictionary or other source that would give information as to the history or currency of this expression. For what it's worth, when I was a boy in the early 1960s I was familiar with the expression "cross my heart and hope to die," although I may have gotten this from hearing it used in earlier movies or television show reruns rather than from then-current usage. Can anyone suggest anything? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 9 16:09:01 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:09:01 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:53:11AM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Someone (he happens to be the leading tax law scholar of all time) has > asked me the following question: When he was a boy in Rochester, N.Y. > around 1925 he used the expression "honest to God and hope to die." He is > wondering whether there is any dictionary or other source that would give > information as to the history or currency of this expression. > > For what it's worth, when I was a boy in the early 1960s I was familiar > with the expression "cross my heart and hope to die," although I may have > gotten this from hearing it used in earlier movies or television show > reruns rather than from then-current usage. > > Can anyone suggest anything? The OED has _cross my heart and hope to die_ from 1926 s.v. _cross_ v. 3.b., and _cross my heart_ from 1908 in the same place. I'd start there. There's also an 1891 example of "hope to die..cross my breast" from 1891 s.v. _Injun_ b. The _hope to die_ element is found from 1865 (Dickens) in the form "wish I may die" s.v. _die_ v.(1) I. 3.c. B. J. Whiting's _Modern Proverbs and Proverbial Phrases_ has _cross my heart and hope to die_ from 1949. He doesn't seem to have the _honest to God_ variant (with which I'm personally unfamiliar) in this or his other books. We have a non-insignificant number of examples of some variant of _cut my throat and hope to die_, the earliest being 1968 from a Scottish source. Ira Gershwin's "Let's Kiss and Make Up," from the 1927 _Funny Face,_ begins with "I didn't mean to/Start any scent to/Make you sigh./ Hope to die!" I just noticed that this is also in OED. I'll leave it to Barry to check the other databases. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 16:14:22 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:14:22 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <20021009160900.GA8735@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Jesse, for this quick and superb response. I guess I should have done some checking myself before posting my query. I still would welcome any further information from other people. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 9 16:43:07 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:43:07 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "honest to God and hope to die." "cross my heart and hope to die" While "cross my heart and hope to die" was certainly in current usage among the kids I grew up with in Lincoln NE in the 30s, my impression is that "honest to God" was more likely to have been heard from adults. I can't remember ever hearing "honest to God" & "and hope to die" together. A. Murie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 18:58:31 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:58:31 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:16 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 6:07 AM -0400 10/9/02, Frank Abate wrote: >>[Re McCarver and his >> >>"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >>have that quick a feet."] >><< >> >>As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I >>recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after >>him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was >>honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things >>after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor >>of his throwing arm. >> >>Frank Abate > >I'm sure you and Dave Wilton are both right; Tennessee it is. And >with apologies to dInIs, I'm not that confident I'd be able to >distinguish a Tennessee from a Kentucky speaker; I agree they're both >south of the relevant border (and north of another one; I can tell >McCarver isn't from Georgia or Alabama). > >L Very good! Some of us would still prefer to call the region in question the South Midland, not the South. From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Oct 9 19:38:57 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:38:57 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.") Peter R. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:05:36 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:05:36 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "honest to God and hope to die." I have never heard that. I have heard "honest to God" but not with "and hope to die" attached. > "cross my heart and hope to die" I have heard that all my life (TX, AR, MO, LA, TN). Bethany From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:14:18 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:14:18 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember wondering about that the first time I heard another kid use the phrase (way back in childhood--So. California, mid- to late 1940s). My puzzlement was cleared up when I heard a different kid recite the complete oath, viz.: "Cross my heart and hope to die If I ever tell a single lie." Now I only wonder why the heart-crossing part is even there--it seems superfluous. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:38 PM -0700 Peter Richardson wrote: > German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I > know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid > thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm > lyin', I'm dyin'.") > > Peter R. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:30:57 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:30:57 -0400 Subject: "Mango" for Green Peppers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave Bergdahl wrote a piece on this for AmSpch some years ago--citation, Dave? At 08:08 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hello: > >I was remembering that my mother from Eastern Pennsylvania used to >call green peppers "mangos". Her friend from Indiana did the same, >and I have also heard that it was used in Ohio. > >Does anyone know the origin of this use of "mango"? > >Thank you in advance > >Elizabeth >-- >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. >Instructional Designer >Education Technology Services, TLT >Penn State University >ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 > >228A Computer Building >University Park, PA 16801 >http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 >http://tlt.psu.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:44:31 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:44:31 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <1090724.1034169258@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: Doesn't the heart crossing come from the sign of the Cross in Christian ritual? Thus, it commits you to tell the truth in a BIG way. At 01:14 PM 10/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I remember wondering about that the first time I heard another kid use the >phrase (way back in childhood--So. California, mid- to late 1940s). My >puzzlement was cleared up when I heard a different kid recite the complete >oath, viz.: > >"Cross my heart and hope to die >If I ever tell a single lie." > >Now I only wonder why the heart-crossing part is even there--it seems >superfluous. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:38 PM -0700 Peter Richardson > wrote: > >>German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I >>know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid >>thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm >>lyin', I'm dyin'.") >> >>Peter R. > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 9 20:50:30 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:50:30 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <20021009160900.GA8735@panix.com> Message-ID: All I've been able to find in our files is a slip with the heading "hope to die," the label "new words," and a reference to "Slang Collected by T.A.K. before 1920" (but no definition). I've not been able to find a published work by that title in the card catalogue, leading me to suspect that the initials belonged to an editor, though which one I couldn't say for sure (perhaps Thomas A. Knott?). I grew up hearing "cross my heart and hope to die," as well as the apparently euphemistic variant, "cross my heart and hope to spit," in northeastern MA during the 60s. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Oct 9 21:07:43 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:07:43 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: Rudy: > Arnold's exasperation over the distinction reminded me of long-buried > memories of my first year in California (at UCLA), when I was quickly > corrected every time I expressed admiration and amazement at the > "geraniums" growing so luxuriantly everywhere. After awhile I learned to > make the distinction, though "geraniums" sold here in Tucson often look > suspiciously like pelargoniums. > > Reminds me also (re an earlier discussion) of the sign in Safeway > here for "yams" posted above a box (from California) labeled "sweet > potatoes". Technically(that is botanically), geraniums *are* pelargoniums and what are usually labeled "yams" in grocery stores are sweet potatoes. I don't know why whoever was "correcting" you about the use of "geranium" was so stuffy. Up here in backward Seattle, these plants are and always have been, geraniums. And stores still call sweet potatoes yams. People would probably "get it" if you labeled "yams" as "sweet potatoes", since people are more or less familiar with the latter. But calling a geranium a pelargonium? It's kind of like calling an "African violet" a saintpaulia(which, botanically speaking, is what an African violet is). Nobody would know what you were referring to. Except maybe at a botanist's conference. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Wed Oct 9 22:00:42 2002 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:00:42 -0500 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: "Texas. A Whole Other Country." Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put a colon in a tourism slogan) I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole NOTHER...." I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the word "whole" in there for emphasis. I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as a colloquial phrase? Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or acceptability of the phrase? Thanks in advance for your consideration -- Susan Yerkes San Antonio Express-News fax: 210-250-3405 direct phone: 250-3455 From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Oct 9 21:20:55 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:20:55 +1000 Subject: farm gate Message-ID: There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these are mirrored in America.) Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Oct 9 22:06:42 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:06:42 +1000 Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: I am trying to track down social groups where it is accepted for males to address their female consorts as "bitch", "whore" and the like: Come on, bitch, we're late and that the female consorts accept this as something akin to an endearment. (There are apparently no parallel vocative terms for females to use in addressing males.) This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. In what social domains is this practice known in the US? Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 22:22:38 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:22:38 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yerkes, Susan said: >Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: > >I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and >seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. > > >I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a >special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest >state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: > >"Texas. A Whole Other Country." > >Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put >a colon in a tourism slogan) >I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" >in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace >the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) > >I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, >and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate >Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. > >Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole >NOTHER...." >I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the >word "whole" in there for emphasis. >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? > >Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question >for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or >acceptability of the phrase? I dunno if it helps with origins, but I was in grad school (in linguistics) at UT Austin in the mid-late 70s. Some of my classmates were Texans, but many of us had come to Texas for grad school. I recall a discussion of both forms ("a whole other" and "a whole nother"). I can't tell you which came first, but both forms were definitely alive and kicking in Texas 25 years ago. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 9 22:35:03 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:35:03 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and > internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. I've never heard the word used among gay women of my acquaintance, or used it myself, in the way you describe. Perhaps my cohorts are a bit old-fashioned, but I think most of them would find the vocative use of "bitch" highly offensive. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 9 22:42:09 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:42:09 -0700 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: This is not a Texas-ism. It is alive and well in both Oregon and Minnesota. fritz I dunno if it helps with origins, but I was in grad school (in linguistics) at UT Austin in the mid-late 70s. Some of my classmates were Texans, but many of us had come to Texas for grad school. I recall a discussion of both forms ("a whole other" and "a whole nother"). I can't tell you which came first, but both forms were definitely alive and kicking in Texas 25 years ago. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 9 22:48:44 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:48:44 -0700 Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. Fritz This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. In what social domains is this practice known in the US? Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 9 23:14:44 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: farm gate Message-ID: In south-central Kentucky we always called this a "gap," and I know no other name for it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:sussex at UQ.EDU.AU] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: farm gate There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these are mirrored in America.) From patty at CRUZIO.COM Wed Oct 9 23:20:29 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:29 -0700 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh dear - my husbands friends all used "bitch" and basically in conversation JUST as Roly describes ever since I met them, about 20 years ago! They are all from Palo Alto (Calif.) and this sure struck me/ was offensive to me when I first joined the group! Eventually, I spoke up about it and I got the guys in the group to back off from this a little over the years. This was not the way I was used to being addressed from my teen dating years in Santa Monica (Calif., Los Angeles area)! They may have picked it up as 'blue collar teenage males'. Unfortunately, several of them stuck with it. I just followed the lead of the other women in the group who didn't bat an eye when they were referred to as "the bitches" as in, "well we can leave and go to the club when the bitches are ready". A memorable experience - I was bewildered that the other women didn't react to this and I was dumbstruck thinking to myself that I was going on a DATE with this crowd, huh?!?! My husband slips into this speech style (he is lucky I am a descriptive not proscriptive linguist :} ) after he has been out with the guys. These guys all keep in touch, there is a large network, all from Palo Alto High School, graduating in the 70's and they sure sound alike so I would say this style of speech probably goes back 30 years, at least in Palo Alto. Patty At 03:48 PM 10/9/02 -0700, you wrote: >I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high >school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think >anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called >bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, >particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an >Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. >Fritz > > >This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in >Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. > >I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and >internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > >In what social domains is this practice known in the US? > >Roly Sussex > >-- >********************************************************** > >Roly Sussex >Professor of Applied Language Studies >Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics >School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies >The University of Queensland >Brisbane >Queensland 4072 >AUSTRALIA > >Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 >Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 >Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 >Email: sussex at uq.edu.au >Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html >School's website: > http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ > >Language Talkback ABC radio: >Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ >Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ > >********************************************************** From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:18:50 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:18:50 -0700 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." And as long as that question has come from Texas: Has there been talk of slapping the "Don't mess with Texas" on license plates? I was astonished to hear, during my last visit to Houston, that that admonition isn't meant to be as belligerent as it sounds (i.e. "Don't fool with me or I'll slap you upside a the head"), but rather to ask people not to litter the pristine Texas landscape. True? Peter R. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:33:04 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:33:04 -0400 Subject: farm gate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Baker, John wrote: > In south-central Kentucky we always called this a "gap," and I know no other name for it. That was also true in southeast and central TX when I lived there (1937-1959). And I have no other word for it. Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:43:50 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think That's my take. >And as long as that question has come from Texas: Has there been talk of >slapping the "Don't mess with Texas" on license plates? I was astonished >to hear, during my last visit to Houston, that that admonition isn't meant >to be as belligerent as it sounds (i.e. "Don't fool with me or I'll slap >you upside a the head"), but rather to ask people not to litter >the pristine Texas landscape. True? ALso my take. Bethany, native Texan and native speaker of whole nother (and other infixes) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:51:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:51:06 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0700 10/9/02, Peter Richardson wrote: >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think >immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a >grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." > It's been called an infix, but I object, since it doesn't show up elsewhere or otherwise behave like an infix. True English infixes include "fuckin" and "bloomin" (Massafuckinchusetts, absobloodlylutely) and have been described in some detail in various papers (they're constrained by stress patterns, among other things). As for "nother", it's a classic reanalysis or metanalysis (albeit perhaps a disingenous one for some speakers). Examples are a newt (formerly "an eft/ewt") a norange (reanalysis in French, actually; cf. Span. "naranja", orig. < Arab. "naranj") and in the other direction an umpire (formerly "noumpere" or "non-peer"/"non-pair") an apron (cf. "nappe", "napkin") More available on request. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:54:33 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:54:33 -0500 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: >At 5:18 PM -0700 10/9/02, Peter Richardson wrote: > >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think >immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a >grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties up the game in the late innings). *** At 5:00 PM -0500 10/9/02, Yerkes, Susan wrote: >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? There's no way to tell who might have first created a given syntactic blend. As for the reason for the survival of "It's a whole (n)other..." the answer must be that it expresses emphasis. And in language there's an ever present need to find ways to express emphasis. Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages author of a monograph on syntactic blends in English maintainer of an open mind in case someone on the list wishes to reject the above interpretation From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 9 22:58:39 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:58:39 -0400 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:07:43 -0700 Anne Gilbert > > Technically(that is botanically), geraniums *are* pelargoniums A koan: If gernaiums are pelargoniums, then what are geraniums? D From jazzmanbb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 01:01:33 2002 From: jazzmanbb at YAHOO.COM (jazz man) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:01:33 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: I have an interesting question for anyone who might want to answer it. Where did "no worries" enter slang? I've seen it attributed to Australians in movies and whatever else, but how did it become so popular? Jordan Baines (Student at Linfield College) "The poet, like the lightning rod, must reach from a point nearer to the sky than all stationary objects, down to the earth and into the dark wet soil, or neither is of use" Emerson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 02:15:28 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:15:28 -0700 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: from Larry:> > As for "nother", it's a classic reanalysis or metanalysis (albeit > perhaps a disingenous one for some speakers). Examples are ...so _nother_ just winds up being a synonym for _new_, eh? Peter R. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 02:43:32 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:43:32 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >...so _nother_ just winds up being a synonym for _new_, eh? > >Peter R. ~~~~~~~ Yes, in the ballgame context, but probably just _different_ in many other cases. A. Murie From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 10 03:57:40 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:57:40 -0500 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Nope that runs right through Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois (for the >territory under discussion). Go listen if you don't believe me. > >dInIs For the record, I was referring to a political border, not a linguistic one. Barbara >What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >passport. > >dInIs > > >I think it's the border between North and South. > >Barbara Need >UChicago--Linguistics From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 04:07:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:07:30 -0400 Subject: Sashimi (1876) Message-ID: OED and Merriam-Webster have 1880 for "sashimi," an important food of Japanese cuisine. OED also has 1880 for "tofu," but Merriam-Webster has 1771. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 14 October 1876, pg. 5: _A JAPANESE DINNER._ _EIGHT COURSES OF A PECULIAR REPAST._ _A SCENE IN A YEDDO RESTAURANT._ (...) The first course consisted of sweet-meats called quashi,... (...) The second course was "Chawan-Mori," a sort of soup with eggs, somewhat similar to soup a la Colbert. (...) THe third course was composed of a variety of fish, with the colelctive name of "Kuchi-Tori-Sakana." The first was a kind of shell-fish, ("Awabi;") the second, the meat of a lobster, ("Ebi,") and with these, served, as a relish, was a small fruit, called "Youzo," a species of citron, which it much resembled in flavor. The fourth course consisted of a sweetened preparation of boiled beans, served with green ginger-root, and another variety of fish, called "tai," fried. The fifth course, called "Sachi-Mi," consisted of raw fish, served upon a delicate lattice work of glass, and accompanied by two kinds of sauce, one dark in color, salt in flavor, and tasting as if composed of soy and anchovies. The other was a preparation of horse-radish. The sixth course was called "Miza-Gai," and consisted of "koi," a kind of fish, boiled, and served with pears and a variety of shell-fish, very much resembling our American scallops, and cut in squares. The seventh course was composed of rice, "meshi," served perfectly plain in small porcelain cups. The eighth and last course, called "Skemoro," was a sort of salad composed of egg-plants and small cucumbers. With each course after the first was served _saki_... (...) Beans are an important article and from these is manufactured _tofee_, or _tofe_--literally, bean-cheese--an article largely used by the poorer classes. (...) From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Oct 10 06:34:27 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:34:27 -0700 Subject: Border States In-Reply-To: <20021010040130.0CD014AEF@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:46:51 -0700 > From: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" > > > >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to > > >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no > > >>passport. > > > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. > > Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and > Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the > union in 1861. > > McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he > did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. I'm fairly sure it _was_ a border state. I'm certain it was a slave state. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 04:32:13 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:32:13 EDT Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: Oh wow. Vocative "bitch" was all over the groups I came from in high-school (predominantly heterosexual) and college (predominantly homosexual). >From what I can remember of high-school, I was "bitch" to my friends, both female and male. My hetero male friends were called "bitch" from other males, but I can't recall how it was used, and I know it also went heterosexual female-to-female non-derogatorily. I can't recall if it ever crossed sexes (without a derogatoy reading). In college it is/was much more fairly spread. Hetero to homo, male to female, and all possible combinations thereof are common. I use it constantly. However, I can't recall heterosexual guys saying it to heterosexual girls without giggling. The other way around works, though. My old roommate called her boyfriend "bitch" constantly. Whenever I meet new people, that's the first thing I remind myself.... "don't say bitch, don't say bitch..." -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 10 05:14:42 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:14:42 -0700 Subject: Border States In-Reply-To: <3DA4BD03.24466.77AAA5@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Dan Goodman > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Border States > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. > > > > Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and > > Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the > > union in 1861. > > > > McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he > > did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. > > I'm fairly sure it _was_ a border state. I'm certain it was a slave > state. No, Tennessee was never considered one of the "border states." It seceded from the Union and joined the Confederacy in 1861. After the war, Tennessee did, however, quickly ratify the 14th Amendment and was readmitted to the Union before the Radical Republicans took control of Congress in 1867. It therefore escaped the penalties of Reconstruction that were visited on the other states of the Confederacy. Of course none of the this has anything to do with linguistics (aside from the definition of "border state"). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 07:52:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:52:04 EDT Subject: Chinese Chicken Salad (1968) Message-ID: From the food section in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES, 9 October 2002 (about LA delis): But perhaps even more than in New York, the local deli owners acknowledged, they were compelled to make significant changes in their menus because so many customers were health conscious. "When I started, you had three salads — chef's salad, cottage cheese and sour cream with canned peaches or pears, and Jewish chop suey, which is chopped vegetables with sour cream," said Mr. Ginsburg with a laugh. "Now we have a Chinese chicken salad, Cobb salad, you name it. Sour cream is on the way out. And God help you if you serve canned fruit." What's the deal with Chinese chicken salad? Neither John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK nor Jean Anderson's AMERICAN CENTURY COOKBOOK has it. There are over 8,000 Google hits! The NEW YORK TIMES, 9 July 1978, pg. L16, has a recipe for it. The earliest I could find was an ad in the NEW YORK TIMES, 19 May 1968, pg. BR47, _The Art of Salad Making_ by Carol Truax: And there are special international salads (from Austrian Apple-Potato Salad to Chinese Chicken Salad)... From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Oct 10 09:30:57 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:30:57 +0100 Subject: No Worries Message-ID: It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. G.A. Wilkes, in the Dict. Australian Colloqualisms (3 edn.), has a citation for 'no worries' dated 1966; the Australian National Dictionary has one in 1969. I have found one, in the 'Barry McKenzie' cartoon strip - running in the UK satirical magazine Private Eye from 1963-74. Unfortunately my cite comes from a 'collected' version of the strip, so its precise date is hard to pin down but (based on the book's overall pagination) I would put it, again, around the mid-Sixties. Jonathon Green From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 12:52:22 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:52:22 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? A. Murie From stefan.grondelaers at ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE Thu Oct 10 12:57:39 2002 From: stefan.grondelaers at ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE (Stefan Grondelaers) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:57:39 +0200 Subject: Conference announcement (Measuring lexical variation and change) Message-ID: Apologies for multiple postings Conference announcement On October 24-25, the research unit Quantitative lexicology and variational linguistics of the Department of Linguistics of the University of Leuven hosts the symposium MEASURING LEXICAL VARIATION AND CHANGE A Symposium on Quantitative Sociolexicology Made possible by the Fund for Scientific Research - Flanders Aim This workshop brings together researchers in the field of variational lexicology and diachronic vocabulary studies who use quantitative methods. Although such methods have been used less intensively in the study of lexical variation and change than they have been employed in the field of phonetics, morphology, or other linguistic variables, there is a growing body of quantitative research on the distribution of words over language varieties and the diffusion of lexical changes over time. The symposium intends to create a forum for the confrontation and the comparison of the different approaches involved. Structure & schedule The workshop consists of 5 plenary sessions (1 hour) and 12 regular sessions (35'). Invited speakers are: Nigel Armstrong (University of Leeds) Peter Auer (University of Freiburg) Harald Baayen (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics Nijmegen & University of Nijmegen) John Nerbonne (University of Groningen) Terttu Nevalainen (University of Helsinki) In order to ensure a highly focused event with maximal interaction between the participants, the number of regular presentations is limited to 12, and there are no parallell sessions. The full programme, as well as abstracts of all the lectures can be found on the conference website http://wwwling.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/sociolex Conference venue The symposium will take place in the Groot Begijnhof "Grand Beguinage", Leuven's magnificent Unesco heritage. The Begijnhof, which was founded in the 13th century outside the town walls, is a microcosmos of picturesque 16th-17th C houses, little cobbled alleys, narrow bridges, and an early Gothic church. It is now a residence for University staff and Foreign guests. The lectures are organised in the neighboring Irish College (1607), where a buffet lunch will also be served. Dinner will be served in the magnificent 16th C infirmary of the Faculty Club. Accommodation & fees For participants who present a paper, participation in the symposium, as well as lunch and dinner on Thursday and Friday are free of charge. Accommodation will be arranged for active participants in the Begijnhof Congress Hotel (www.begijnhofcongreshotel.be) (to be paid for by the participants themselves). If you are interested in attending the symposium as a passive participant, please send an e-mail to Dirk Geeraerts, Stefan Grondelaers & Dirk Speelman (by October 16 at the latest) at the following address: sociolex at listserv.cc.kuleuven.ac.be Additional information on the conference organisers & the conference schedule, the conference venue (how to get there) & registration, can be found on the conference website http://wwwling.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/sociolex From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 13:07:23 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:07:23 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 13:11:01 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:11:01 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: The NY Times has a short piece this morning in the "Circuits" section on Bert Vaux's online dialect survey. He's at Harvard. Maybe this is general knowledge among you, but I somehow missed it. 122 questions with maps asking how respondents pronounce various words. It's at www.hcs.harvardedu/~golder/dialect/. Some interesting stuff, but some obvious problems-- he asks about the pronunciation of "aunt" but I didn't see any query about informant's race. Also he doesn't ask informants if they merge cot-caught before asking them to match up one of those two vowels with their "aunt" pronunciation. Also answer c and d are indentical.... Here's the question 1. aunt a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [] when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [/] when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) h. other (0.80%) (624 respondents) Dale Coye New Jersey From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 13:17:06 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:17:06 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My experience growing up in Utah in the 50's and 60's was similar. I don't recall ever hearing "Honest to God" joined with "Hope to die" into one phrase, but I hear either phrase individualy all the time. --- sagehen wrote: > "honest to God and hope to die." > "cross my heart and hope to die" > > While "cross my heart and hope to die" was certainly > in current usage among > the kids I grew up with in Lincoln NE in the 30s, > my impression is that > "honest to God" was more likely to have been heard > from adults. I can't > remember ever hearing "honest to God" & "and hope > to die" together. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Thu Oct 10 12:31:49 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:31:49 -0400 Subject: Mango & Green Peppers - Summmary In-Reply-To: <200210100421.AAA142140@f05n16.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: Hello: The general consensus on the mango-green pepper issue is that the connection was pickling. According to David Bergdahl's AmSpch note, which he kindly sent me, mangos first arrived in the U.S. in pickle form in the mid 19th century. Hence, in some cases other similarly pickled fruits and vegetables, including green peppers, also became mangos. The distribution for mango as green pepper is apparently from Pennsylvannia through parts of Illinois including Ohio, Indiana and parts of Kentucky. Thanks to David Bergdahl, Joan Houston Hall, Rima McKinzey, Steve Peter and Beverly Flanigan for their help. Elizabeth -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 14:01:20 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:01:20 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/10/02 9:11:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dalecoye at AOL.COM writes: > answer c and d are indentical.... Here's > the question > > 1. aunt > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [] > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [/] > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > h. other (0.80%) > (624 respondents) Also the arithmetic is suspicious. Adding up all the percentages from a thru h, inclduing both c and d, you get 99.99% (the last .01% is round-off error). That implies that c and d were tabulated separately and both were included in the count. Why then do c and d have exactly the same response (2.24%, which is 14 people)? Did 28 people answer EITHER c or d and were allocated evenly to what turns out to be two identical answers? Or did c and d each just happen to have 14 respondents? - Jim Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 14:18:29 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:29 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: I see now I was confused (too hasty in looking it over) -- c and d are not the same answer...d is for those who merge the vowels of cot and caught... also there is a race question (optional) when you sign in. It's tricky to do this kind of survey as I found several years ago... > 1. aunt > > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > [] > > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > [/] > > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > > h. other (0.80%) > > (624 respondents) > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 14:40:51 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:40:51 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <42945.3243229643@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: David Bergdahl writes: >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > wrote: > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >> A. Murie ~~~~~~~ I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just this particular context. AM From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Thu Oct 10 14:01:28 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:01:28 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Mango & Green Peppers - Summmary Message-ID: >Hello: > >The general consensus on the mango-green pepper issue is that the >connection was pickling. According to David Bergdahl's AmSpch note, >which he kindly sent me, mangos first arrived in the U.S. in pickle >form in the mid 19th century. Hence, in some cases other similarly >pickled fruits and vegetables, including green peppers, also became >mangos. > >The distribution for mango as green pepper is apparently from >Pennsylvannia through parts of Illinois including Ohio, Indiana and >parts of Kentucky. > >Thanks to David Bergdahl, Joan Houston Hall, Rima McKinzey, Steve >Peter and Beverly Flanigan for their help. > >Elizabeth > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Oct 10 14:44:10 2002 From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:44:10 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and > internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > > Roly Sussex A colleague of mine used to be a city bus driver in Portland, Oregon. There was this gay couple who regularly rode his bus (he assumed they were gay because they always shopped for groceries together and were quite touchy-feely). One day he was quite surprised to hear the bigger, butch man tell the smaller, stereotypically effeminate man, "Be quiet, bitch!" Apparently the smaller man didn't say anything in reply. This would have happened approximately 15 years ago. What came to mind when I heard the above were certain public service ads that I've seen on subways and buses. They were targeted to gays and lesbians, telling them that homosexual relationships can be abusive too and that help is available for victims of same-sex domestic violence--call this 1-800 number. I suppose this is an example of "bitch" as an endearment and not gay and lesbian domestic violence. Judy From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Thu Oct 10 14:57:00 2002 From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:57:00 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I recently wrote my second cousin a letter and used the expression "on pins and needles" in the following context. "When do early admission college applicants hear whether they were accepted? Is your son on pins and needles waiting to hear?" I grew up in rural/suburban Illinois in the 50's & 60's. I think I grew up hearing "on pins and needles" in this context, i.e. anxiety over waiting to hear or find out something specific. I wouldn't use it in the sniper context which is stronger and more generalized anxiety. I've heard "pins and needles" to describe tingly numbness as when your leg falls asleep, but do not myself use it that way. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:40:51 -0400 sagehen writes: > David Bergdahl writes: > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on > suburban LI) > > > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > > wrote: > > > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation > experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a > reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" > where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > ~~~~~~~ > I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually > occurring > in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), > just > this particular context. > AM > > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 10 15:08:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:08:51 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't use it in speech. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 15:22:38 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:22:38 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <42945.3243229643@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Me too--Minnesota, same time period (and I still use it). At 09:07 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > wrote: > >>In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >>people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >>on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd >>have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >>A. Murie > > > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 10 15:31:19 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:31:19 -0700 Subject: No Worries In-Reply-To: <000c01c2703f$be78e600$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: > It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. G.A. Wilkes, in > the Dict. Australian Colloqualisms (3 edn.), has a citation > for 'no worries' dated 1966; the Australian National > Dictionary has one in 1969. I have found one, in the 'Barry > McKenzie' cartoon strip - running in the UK satirical magazine > Private Eye from 1963-74. Unfortunately my cite comes from a > 'collected' version of the strip, so its precise date is hard > to pin down but (based on the book's overall pagination) I > would put it, again, around the mid-Sixties. I would say that the phrase was popularized in the US by Australian comedian Paul Hogan. He uses that phrase several times in his 1986 movie "Crocodile Dundee." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 15:47:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:47:54 -0400 Subject: No Worries In-Reply-To: <000c01c2703f$be78e600$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. Terry Pratchett's _The Last Continent_, 1998, is set in a place based on Australia and richly loaded with Australian images, archetypes, slang, and cliches, including this one, which seems to appear in almost every conversation. (Hmm. Amazon offers it http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061059072/qid=1034264705/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5599507-6306241?v=glance for List Price: $6.99 [lined out] Price: $6.99 [boldface, red] Wow, I can't pass up a bargain like that!) -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 15:50:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:50:00 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: #In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by #people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter #on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have #expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? Not I. -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:03:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:03:32 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:40 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >David Bergdahl writes: > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > > > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > > wrote: > > > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > ~~~~~~~ >I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring >in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just >this particular context. >AM The restoration of feeling usage is minor, I suspect; my only acquaintance with the phrase is metaphorical. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 10 16:10:05 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:10:05 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. John Baker From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:14:14 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:14:14 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021010112325.02d6ecd8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Me too--while I do associate the term with "an arm or leg falling asleep" its metaphorical usage is much more prevalent--that's the usage I responded to as "heard it all my life." --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:03 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > At 10:40 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> David Bergdahl writes: >> > Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban >> > LI) >> > >> > --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen >> > wrote: >> > >> >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >> >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a >> >> reporter on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" >> >> where I'd have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >> >> A. Murie >> ~~~~~~~ >> I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring >> in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just >> this particular context. >> AM > > The restoration of feeling usage is minor, I suspect; my only acquaintance > with the phrase is metaphorical. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:21:05 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:21:05 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After being folk etymologized into "tender hooks" it fits anxiety better 'n fear! --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:10 PM -0400 "Baker, John" wrote: > I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the > metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of > anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for > the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience > (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper > area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. > > John Baker _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Oct 10 17:17:27 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:17:27 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I don't find the expression odd at all. I know it as describing some sort of anxiety (would never use it for the numbness-usage that has been suggested). So, the usage that was heard on NPR doesn't bother me at all. However, I think there was a song back in the 60's that was called "Needles and Pins." (does anyone know who sang it and what its correct title is?). But I really have no idea what the 'needles and pins' in the song are for . The order of words in the phrase 'pins and needles' now sounds a little odd to me, since I have heard that song so many times. I have never heard 'tenterhooks'. Fritz Oregon >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 10/10/02 08:08AM >>> >From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't use it in speech. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:23:55 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:23:55 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: Lyrics of Needles and Pins at: http://www.jackiedeshannon.com/music/needlesandpins/lyricsn&p.htm Recorded by Jackie DeShannon; written by Jack Nitzsche and Sonny Bono. http://www.jackiedeshannon.com/music/needlesandpins/nandp.html George Cole Shippensburg University From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Oct 10 17:29:50 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:29:50 -0700 Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: Dale Coye wrote: > > I see now I was confused (too hasty in looking it over) -- c and d are not > the same answer...d is for those who merge the vowels of cot and caught... > also there is a race question (optional) when you sign in. It's tricky to > do this kind of survey as I found several years ago... > > 1. aunt > > > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > > > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > > > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > > > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > > > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > > > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > > [] > > > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > > > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > > [/] > > > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > > > h. other (0.80%) > > > (624 respondents) I'm interested in f/g. I'm in the Silicon Valley which a large Indus population and I'm used to the younger grade-school-aged generation calling me "Sally auntie," with "auntie" as the honorific they use for an older family friend. I once listened to a fourteen-year-old dismayed because a five-year-old called her "auntie." The fourteen-year-old said she wasn't _that old. In a recent news article about the services for Prem Kumar Walekar, a victim of the East Coast sniper, the AP report said, "Nieces and nephews sang songs and remembered a man they called "Prem Uncle" while standing under a video screen that flashed snapshots from his life." Now, maybe the young people were all nieces and nephews of Prem Kumar Walekar, but my first thoughts were that the reporter misunderstood the use of the "Uncle" honorific and the young people were not necessarily related to the deceased. Anyone else know? Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:37:19 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:37:19 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <317064.3243241265@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I personally interpreted it "tinderhooks" until the first time I saw it spelled. Don't ask me why--whatever "tinderhooks" might be, the word is no more transparent to me than "tenterhooks." As for "on pins and needles," I've heard it all my life, and only in the metaphorical sense. My mother (born in TX, grew up in OK) used it all the time, so it's been around a lot longer than I have. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:21 PM -0400 David Bergdahl wrote: > After being folk etymologized into "tender hooks" it fits anxiety better > 'n fear! > > --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:10 PM -0400 "Baker, John" > wrote: > >> I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the >> metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of >> anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for >> the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience >> (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper >> area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. >> >> John Baker > > > > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:41:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:41:06 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with the reanalysis judgment (vs. infixing)--but more seriously, why does the slogan bother you so much? And yes, even we "articulate" Ohioans use both versions of the phrase, whether we're word mavens or not. It survives because it's useful. Beverly Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University At 05:00 PM 10/9/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: > >I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and >seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. > > >I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a >special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest >state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: > >"Texas. A Whole Other Country." > >Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put >a colon in a tourism slogan) >I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" >in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace >the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) > >I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, >and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate >Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. > >Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole >NOTHER...." >I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the >word "whole" in there for emphasis. >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? > >Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question >for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or >acceptability of the phrase? > >Thanks in advance for your consideration -- >Susan Yerkes >San Antonio Express-News >fax: 210-250-3405 >direct phone: 250-3455 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:49:08 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:49:08 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The term is often used as an in-group identity marker among African American women, even here in Ohio. Black men use it too, though I haven't heard it used man to man. Sometimes it's affectionate (as in the first case I cited), sometimes it's offensive. Young white college men use it too, and even to me--but I had just chewed one out for parking on my lawn.... I've always assumed it was an Americanism first, but I'm not sure. At 03:48 PM 10/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high >school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think >anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called >bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, >particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an >Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. >Fritz > > >This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in >Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. > >I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and >internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > >In what social domains is this practice known in the US? > >Roly Sussex > >-- >********************************************************** > >Roly Sussex >Professor of Applied Language Studies >Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics >School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies >The University of Queensland >Brisbane >Queensland 4072 >AUSTRALIA > >Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 >Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 >Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 >Email: sussex at uq.edu.au >Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html >School's website: > http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ > >Language Talkback ABC radio: >Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ >Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ > >********************************************************** From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Oct 10 18:12:08 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:12:08 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: sagehen wrote: > > David Bergdahl writes: > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen wrote: > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring > in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just > this particular context. "pins & needles" to me is the prickly feeling when sensation returns after blood's cut off. Sometimes the feeling is "my foot's asleep" and when it wakes up the feeling isn't pins n' needles but something ticklish. My location: California's Bay Area since 1960 and elsewhere before that. My parents are from the Boston area and I know that I still have some vestiges of language from them. Whether pins n' needles is one is a question. "pins & needles" in an "on pins & needles" sense I might use in an anticipatory sense. You'd wait with bated breath, on pins n' needles, to know whether that cute Donny Pardeaux was _really going to ask you to the Winter Dance. The outcome, in this sense, is in question, but there's no fear involved. Alarm & nervous expectation? That would be filled with alarm and nervous expectation on tenterhooks some other words dealing with at wit's end, anxiety, fear, suspense, stress "on pins & needles" seems much more benign and far less stressed than folks in Montgomery County and surrounding areas must be feeling. Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 10 18:16:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:16:37 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: Speaking as one of them: We are on pins and needles waiting for the arrest of the gunman or gunmen. And we wait in fear, perhaps on tenterhooks, for additional murders. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Towse [mailto:self at TOWSE.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:12 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? "on pins & needles" seems much more benign and far less stressed than folks in Montgomery County and surrounding areas must be feeling. Sal From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 18:17:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:17:46 -0400 Subject: Chicken Salad, Chinese Style (1960); Diner (1926) Message-ID: CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 May 1960, pg. 47: CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE Preparation time: About forty minutes. COst per serving: About forty-five cents. 3 cups diced, cooked chicken 1 cup drained, canned bean sprouts 2 ribs celery, diced 1/2 teaspoon salt Pinch of freshly ground black pepper French dressing 3/4 cup mayonnaise Dash of soy sauce Lettuce and olives. 1. Combine the chicken, bean sprouts, celery, salt and pepper and moisten with the French dressing. Chill. 2. Flavor the mayonnaise with soy sauce and mix with the chicken. Pile onto a bed of crisp lettuce and garnish with olives. Yield: Four servings. (The NORTH AMERICA WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has "chicken salad" from January 1827--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- DINER OED has "diner" from 1935. I looked in the Providence City Directory up to 1924, but didn't find anything. PROVIDENCE: THE SOUTHERN GATEWAY OF NEW ENGLAND COMMEMORATING THE ONE HUNDRED FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND May 4, 1926 Historical Publishing Company W. S. SOlomon, Business Manager H. A. Barker, Historical Director (NYPL uses his name in CATNYP--ed.) Pg. 211 ad: LITTLE RHODY DINER Meals That Tempt and Satisfy WARWICK AVENUE At Apponaug Road LAKEWOOD, R. I. (There is a photo. It's not a dining car. It's a diner!--ed.) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 10 18:22:04 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:22:04 -0700 Subject: Chicken Salad, Chinese Style (1960); Diner (1926) In-Reply-To: <3CF1392F.1330FCED.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Ah, the good old days, when anything involving bean sprouts (canned) or even soy sauce could be called "Chinese style". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE > > From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 May 1960, pg. 47: ... > 1 cup drained, canned bean sprouts ... > Dash of soy sauce From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 18:27:33 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:27:33 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <20021010.105703.-70221.0.pskuhlman@juno.com> Message-ID: The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, hell, now that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've probably used it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still seems more natural to me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. Tenterhooks, by the way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in a curtain stretcher, to hold material taut. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 18:32:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:32:58 -0400 Subject: Gnocchi, Presciutto, Caffe latte (1867) Message-ID: ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS SECOND PART: CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by K. Baedeker Coblenz: Karl Baedeker 1867 Pg. XXVIII: Restaurants (_trattoria_) are chiefly frequented by Italians and travellers unaccompanied by ladies. (...) _Zuppa_, soup. _Consume_, broth or bouillon. _Sante_ or _minestra_, soup with green vegetables and bread. _Gnocchi_, small puddings. _Riso con piselli_, rice-soup with peas. _Risotto_, a species of rice pudding (rich). _Maccaroni al burro_, with butter, _al pomidoro_, with paradise-apples. _Manso_, boiled beef. _Fritti_, fried meat. _Arrosti_, roasted meat. _Bistecca_, beefsteak. _Coscietto_, loin. _Arrosto di vitello_, roast-veal. _Testa di vitell_, calf's head. _Fegato di vitello_, calf's liver. _Braccioletta di vitello_, veal-cutlet. _Costoletta all minuta_, veal-cutlet with calf's ears and truffles. _Potate_, potatoes. Pg. XXIX: _Quaglia_, quail. _Tordo_, field-fare. _Lodola_, lark. _Sfoglia_, a species of sole. _Principi all tavola_, hot relishes. _Funghi_, mushrooms (often too rich). _Presciutto_, ham. _Salami_, sausage. _Pollo, fowl. _Pollastro_, turkey. _Umidi_, meat with sauce. _Stufatino_, ragout. _Erbe_, vegetables. _Cavelofi_, artichokes. _Piselli_, peas. _Lenticchie_, lentils. _Cavoli flori_, cauliflower. _Fave_, beans. _Fagiuolini_, French beans. _Mostardo_, simple mustard. _Senape_, hot mustard. _Ostriche_, oysters (good in winter only). _Giardinetto_, fruit-desert. _Crostata di frutti_, fruit-tart. _Crostata di pasta sfogla_, a species of pastry. _Fragole_, strawberries. _Pera_, pear. _Persiche_, peaches. _Uva_, bunch of grapes. _Limone_, lemon. _Portogallo_, orange. _Finocchio_, root of fennel. _Pane francese_, bread made with yeast (the Italian is made without). _Formaggio_, cheese. _Vino nevo_, red wine; _bianco_, white; _asciutto_, dry, _dolce_, sweet; _nostrale_, table-wine. (...) _Cafe noir (_caffe nero_) is usually drunk (10-20 c. per cup). _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (20 c.); or caffe e latte, i. e. with the milk served separately, may be preferred. _Mischio_ is a mixture of coffee and chocolate (15-20 c.), considered wholesome and nutritious. (...) Ices (_gelato_) or every possible variety are supplied at the cafes (30-90 c. per portion); a half portion (_mezza_) may always be ordered. _Granita_, or half-frozen ice (limonata_, of lemons; _aranciata_, of oranges), is especially in vogue in the afternoon. From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 18:35:08 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:08 -0700 Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any specific name? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 18:38:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:38:26 -0400 Subject: semantic evolution of "geek" Message-ID: I received this question. I thought we'd discussed it, but I can't find it in the archives. >>>> I have a Hungarian friend who would like to know how "geek" evolved from its original meaning to the one we normally use today (ie, a computer nerd). I'm clueless...help? <<<< -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 10 18:45:02 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:45:02 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: My mother would have used "Pins and needles" to describe anxiety/eagerness of some anticipated event. I doubt whether she or I would use it in a case as grim as the citation referred to. I doubt that she was on "pins and needles" while nursing her mother in her last illness. My image is not being able to sit still, as if sitting on ps & ns. The ILGWU, if I recall correctly, put on a musical revue in the 30s called "Pins and Needles" that was very successful, though it must have been largely an amateur production. I can look it up, if there is demand. ILGWU = International Ladies Garment Workers Union, by the way. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: sagehen Date: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:27 pm Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? > The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, > hell, now > that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've > probablyused it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still > seems more natural to > me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. > Tenterhooks, by the > way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in > a curtain > stretcher, to hold material taut. > A. Murie > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 18:46:22 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:46:22 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't remmeber the original artist off the top of my head, but the Ramones covered it. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I don't find the expression odd at all. I know it > as describing some sort of anxiety (would never use > it for the numbness-usage that has been suggested). > So, the usage that was heard on NPR doesn't bother > me at all. However, I think there was a song back > in the 60's that was called "Needles and Pins." > (does anyone know who sang it and what its correct > title is?). But I really have no idea what the > 'needles and pins' in the song are for . The order > of words in the phrase 'pins and needles' now sounds > a little odd to me, since I have heard that song so > many times. I have never heard 'tenterhooks'. > Fritz > Oregon > >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 10/10/02 08:08AM >>> > From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and > find "on tenterhooks" > odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't > use it in speech. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > > > In describing the state of alarm & nervous > expectation experienced by > > people in the D.C. area because of the recent > sniper shootings, a reporter > > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins > & needles" where I'd have > > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this > odd? > > A. Murie > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 10 20:02:29 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:02:29 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if blending is required to explain this, given that "nother" has been kicking around in the language since Caxton, or before. I don't know how long "whole nother" has been around, though. On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if > syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might > have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + > "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to > "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." > > Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: > new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties > up the game in the late innings). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 23:39:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:39:50 EDT Subject: Cappuccino, Zucchini (1900); Espresso, Biscotti, Cannoli, Amaretti (1930) Message-ID: I didn't have time to go through every single BAEDEKER edition. I'll try to take it up again on Saturday. ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS SECOND PART: CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by K. Baedeker Thirteenth Revised Edition Leipzic: Karl Baedeker 1900 Pg. XXI: _Zucchini_, gherkins. (...) _Fagioli_, French beans. Pg. XXII: _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before being served (30-50 c.; _cappuccino_, or small cup, cheaper): or _caffe e latte_, _i. e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. ("Cappuccino was not there in 1890, but it's here in 1900. I didn't check in between--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ITALY--HANDBOOKS FOR TRAVELLERS THIRD PART: SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY by K. Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedeker 1903 Pg. XXII: _Zucchino_, marrow, squash. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by Karl Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedker 1909 Pg. XXI: _Zuppa inglese_, a kind of trifle. _Frrittata_, omelette. _Crostata_, fruit with pastry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROME AND CENTRAL ITALY by K. Baedeker Sixteenth Revised Edition Leipzig: Karl Baedeker 1930 Pg. XXIV: ...it is often prepared in a machine specially (_espresso_) for each customer and is then usually very good. ("Espresso" wasn't there in 1912. It's here in 1930. I'll look in between--ed.) Pg. XXIV: Mozzarella...Proval...Provolone...Pecorino... Pg. XXV: ...biscuits (_biscotti_) and little cakes (_paste_; _maritozzi_ current rolls, _amaretti_ macaroons, _cannoli_ cream rolls)... (Merriam-Webster has 1943 for "cannoli," 1945 for "amaretto" and 1973 for "biscotto"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 00:07:02 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:07:02 EDT Subject: Maltese Oranges, Jack Robinson (1790); Tutti Frutti, Packed Like Herrings (1837) Message-ID: MALTESE ORANGES A TOUR THROUGH SICILY AND MALTA IN A SERIES OF LETTERS TO WILLIAM BECKFORD, ESQ. FROM P. BRYDONE London: A. Strahan and T. Cadell 1790 VOLUME ONE Pg. 338: The Maltese oranges certainly deserve the character they have of being the finest in the world. (There is a long description here. The revised OED has 1816-1820 for "Maltese red oranges"--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 48: "Very well, neighbour, I only wish I had you on board ship for half an hour, you should have a dozen before you could say Jack Robinson, for all your painted cheeks." (OED has about this time for "Jack Robinson"--ed.) Pg. 76: ...whereas in Italy, they only go to play at cards and eat ices. Pg. 203: It consisted principally of ices, creams, chocolate, sweet-meats, and fruit, of which there was a great variety. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TURKEY, GREECE AND MALTA by Adolphus Slade London: Saunders and Otley 1837 VOLUME ONE (of two) Pg. 7: ...in others, as we have witnessed in the Catherine docks, the passengers are literally packed in the hold like herrings in a barrel. (This is about a decade earlier than I had in my 1999 "packed like herrings/sardines" post--ed.) Pg. 132: Nearly every one seemed anxious to be considered a fit gathering for the next basket of "_tutti frutti_." (OED's first cite is 1834--ed.) (I didn't get to volume two--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 00:18:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:18:10 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: Since Barry forbore to point it out, I thought it might be worth calling attention to the above article (with a title that makes it sound as though "Sloppy" was Billy Joe McAlister's unruly brother) by Andrea Strong in yesterday's Times Living section (10/9, F3). There are all sorts of recipes and origin stories presented, and at least one legitimate-sounding authority (Leonard Zwilling of DARE) is cited, along with some rather speculative-sounding versions of the history, involving Hemingway, Cuba, Key West, and such. As far as approaches to the item itself are concerned, my vote is with either the expensive "Asian-tinged" version (pulled pork in a fiery tomato-based sauces brightened with ginger, garlic, and Vietnamese chili paste, piled onto a scallion bun with fresh mint and cilantro leaves)--sounds great but a very distant cousin of the Joe) or the Cuban Sloppy Jose (not the term the article uses) of ropa vieja (marinated skirt steak with a spicy sauce of tomatoes, garlic, cumin, chilies, etc.). There is, however, a printed recipe for a more traditional Sloppy Joe, with tomato puree, ground beef...and chipotle in adobo. I'm OK with all of these, but then I'm no purist on Sloppy Joes. It's not like messing with egg creams, after all... larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Oct 11 00:08:35 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:08:35 -0500 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: My background, 67 YO Chicago upbringing: Pins and Needles= nervous excitement tenterhooks = nervous suspense I tend to lay the misuse of what were once popular expressions, and even standard english, to the lack of a general education on the part of the users. When I was in grade and high school, english was stressed as part of a general education. I truly believe that people of my age could not have got out of college with out understanding the difference between these two phrases. Perhaps we need a Microsoft Word product that diagrams sentences. It makes me wonder if our schools have become to goal orientated and are emphasising a speciality at all costs over a well rounded education. > > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > > have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > > A. Murie > > > > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi > From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 11 00:53:37 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:53:37 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Baker just wrote asking about tenterhooks. In the Mission Mill Museum in Salem, OR there's a very nice multi-story exhibit of wool processing: washing, carding, dyeing, etc. up to the spinning and weaving. On the top floor, around the large room where the spinning wheels live, are long pegs driven into the adze-hewn posts, and those pegs are the tenterhooks. They are used to dry the heavy hanks of washed wool before carding. I think I've heard "tenderhooks" in the expression, an apparent folk etymology that would impute an understandable meaning to _tenter_--although the combination of _tender_ with _hook_ sounds like a stretch to me. Peter R. From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Fri Oct 11 01:11:02 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:11:02 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lifted wholesale from Jesse's answer to this question on his Word of the Day website in 1996: The word "nother," which simply means 'other; different', comes from a misdivision of "an other" or "another. This type of misdivision has several parallels in English. The word "newt" was originally "ewte" in Middle English, but the phrase "an ewte" was changed to "a newt." Similarly, "nickname" was originally "an ekename" ("eke" being an archaic word for 'also' that still pops up from time to time), but was misdivided as "a nekename." In the other direction, "apron" was once "napron," but "a napron" was turned into "an apron." There is evidence for the misdivided "nother" 'other' going back to around 1300. The Oxford English Dictionary describes it as obsolete except in dialectal use, but the set phrase "a whole nother" is common in the United States and has been for at least several decades At 04:02 PM 10/10/02 -0400, you wrote: >I don't know if blending is required to explain this, given that >"nother" has been kicking around in the language since Caxton, or before. >I don't >know how long "whole nother" has been around, though. > >On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if > > syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might > > have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + > > "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to > > "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." > > > > Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: > > new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties > > up the game in the late innings). From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 01:15:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:15:45 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:53 PM -0700 10/10/02, Peter Richardson wrote: >I've heard "tenderhooks" in the expression, an apparent folk etymology >that would impute an understandable meaning to _tenter_--although the >combination of _tender_ with _hook_ sounds like a stretch to me. > as in the iron fist in the velvet glove? FWIW, there's a song of the same name (Tenderhook), with lyrics viewable at http://www.stellar.co.nz/song-tenderhook.html. Not that many google hits for "tenderhook" per se, but one that mentions (in a line of poetry) "everyone hanging from a single tenderhook". There are 331 hits for "on tenderhooks" (with quotes incorporated in search), with the usual gentle query "Did you mean _on tenterhooks_?" larry, who doesn't recall his very traditional English grammar school classes spending much time on the difference between "on tenterhooks" and "on pins and needles" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 01:31:37 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:31:37 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021010210850.00a702f0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: At 9:11 PM -0400 10/10/02, Wendalyn Nichols wrote: >Lifted wholesale from Jesse's answer to this question on his Word of the >Day website in 1996: > >The word "nother," which simply means 'other; different', comes from a >misdivision of "an other" or "another. This type of misdivision has several >parallels in English. The word "newt" was originally "ewte" in Middle >English, but the phrase "an ewte" was changed to "a newt." Similarly, >"nickname" was originally "an ekename" ("eke" being an archaic word for >'also' that still pops up from time to time), but was misdivided as "a >nekename." In the other direction, "apron" was once "napron," but "a >napron" was turned into "an apron." Aha. Great minds thinking alike, I see. To the examples of "metanalysis" or misdivision (I tend to prefer the former term as a bit more morally neutral) that I cited earlier and Jesse cites here, a couple overlapping, one more of interest to the list is the "nonce" of "nonce word", derived from "once". The OED's etymology of "nonce" alludes to "(n)ewt" as the locus classicus--maybe we might call all such metanalysands "salamandronyms". Or not. L From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 11 02:09:14 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:09:14 -0700 Subject: Doozy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone queried me regarding "doozy," wondering if it could be from the Polish "duz`y" or "duz`a," meaning big or large. Spelling and pronunciation are similar, as are the meanings. The early 20th century appearance is consistent with Polish immigration patterns to the US. It's probably just a coincidental similarity, but the query has got me wondering. Has anyone ever examined this possibility? RHHDAS refers to a 1992 Gerald Cohen "Comments on Etymology" article about the word, but of course the brief entry gives no detail about what is contained therein. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Oct 11 01:20:40 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:20:40 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:18:10 -0400 Laurence Horn > I'm OK with all of these, but then I'm no purist on > Sloppy Joes. It's not like messing with egg creams, after all... Still, there is something culturally offensive about gourmet Sloppy Joes. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 02:24:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:24:27 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: Another story where I wasn't interviewed. This is going to happen for the rest of my life. Jean Anderson? What's she done on this term?...If there's a story in the works about "espresso" and "cappuccino"--and there will be--the NEW YORK TIMES will talk to Bozo before it talks to me! I posted the Havana origin of the name "Sloppy Joe" right here. I also posted the first citations of the familiar "Sloppy Joe" sandwich right here. The New Jersey "Sloppy Joe" is a different sandwich. And the NEW YORK TIMES has _already_ done a story on it--on 12 August 1973, pg. 84, "Birthplace of 'Sloppy Joe.'" That story said that NJ's Robert Sweeney made his Havana trip in 1932, not 1934 or 1935. One TIMES story is probably right. Check it out. I have not seen DARE's information, so I can't comment on what Leonard Zwilling has. Andrew Smith is referred to as the editor in chief of the OXFORD ENYCLOPEDIA OF FOOD AND DRINK. A few weeks ago, he was the editor of the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. I thought I was submitting information to the the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD! Didn't this "Ode to Joe" song fellow jump off a bridge? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:29:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:29:34 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" In-Reply-To: <631D24CD.72B2B66A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:24 PM -0400 10/10/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Another story where I wasn't interviewed. Yup, I noticed > Didn't this "Ode to Joe" song fellow jump off a bridge? As I recall, the narrator was seen throwing a mysterious package into the river the day Bobby Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahachee bridge. Larry From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:47:28 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:47:28 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: >In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have >expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? No, I would find "on tenterhooks" very odd. What ARE tenterhooks, anyway? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:58:58 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:58:58 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, hell, now >that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've probably >used it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still seems more natural to >me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. Tenterhooks, by the >way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in a curtain >stretcher, to hold material taut. Thanks. Now - What is a curtain stretcher? What is it used for? Why would one want to stretch a curtain? Bethany From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 11 03:15:16 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:15:16 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me, too! I'm glad to know what "on tenderhooks" means, now. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of A. Maberry > Sent: Thursday, 10 October, 2002 08:09 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? > > > From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on > tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but > wouldn't use it in speech. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu From e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 11 03:27:44 2002 From: e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:27:44 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:45 PM Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? |My image is not being able to sit still, as if sitting on ps & ns. Mine too. For those of you who want an ethnic term, I believe the American/Yiddish equivalent is: to have _shpilkes_, translated by Sol Steinmetz in his _Yiddish and English_ as . . . you've guessed it, 'pins'. Enid From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Oct 11 03:37:54 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:37:54 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: D: > A koan: If gernaiums are pelargoniums, then what are geraniums? A geranium, I guess. I don't know. . . .and anyway, this is a *language* list, not a botany list! :-) Anne G P.S., maybe somebody else on this list knows what a "real" geranium is????? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Oct 11 04:37:57 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:37:57 -0500 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: > > The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end > in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end > in -aire). > > Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most > others switch to -ary? > > Thanks for any help. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times Serendipity strikes again. Two weeks ago I bought half a dozen novels by Dick Francis at a garage sale. (I'm recuperating from an accident and need diversion. Although I can receive around 200 channels TV channels via satellite, TV is boring beyond belief.) The novel I read today was "Straight", published in 1989 by G.P. Putnam's Sons. The protagonist, as you might expect in a Dick Francis tale, is a British steeplechase jockey. He inherits his brother's dealership in semi-precious stones and discovers that his late brother had purchased 100 diamonds worth $1,500,000.00 -- but the diamonds are nowhere to be found. Our hero discovers that purchases of that magnitude are likely to be made through a "diamantaire". Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. Begin quote (page 126): " . . . what's a sightholder, and what's a sight?" "You're back to diamonds again!" "Yes. Do you know?" "Of course I do. A sightholder is someone who's permitted to buy rough diamonds from the C.S.O. [INSERT from Mike Salovesh: I couldn't come up with the passage that translates "C.S.O."; it's something like Controlled Sales Organization, controlled by the de Beers quasi-monopoly.] "There aren't so many sightholders, only about a hundred and fifty world-wide, I think. They sell the diamonds then to other people. A sight is what they call the sales C.S.O. holds every five weeks, and a sight-box is a packet of stones they sell, though that's often called a sight too." "Is a sightholder the same as a diamantaire?" I asked. "All sightholders are diamantaires, but all diamantaires are not sightholders. Diamantaires buy from the sightholders, or share in a site, or buy somewhere else, not from de Beers." Ask a simple question, I thought. End quote. Although "diamantaire" in this quote seems to be used as a noun rather than an adjective, my feel for language catches adjectival overtones in its use. The vocabulary is highly specialized, though; to be on the safe side I'd want to check it out with someone who is familiar with this high-level marketing. Francis strikes me as pretty careful to get his background details right. The acknowledgments in his novels usually cite people who appear to be knowledgeable in their fields. [The acknowledgment page in "Straight" says "My thanks especially to JOSEPH and DARLENE ZERGER of ZARLENE IMPORTS, Dealers in semipreciouis stones."] Hope this is of some use. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 06:45:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:45:17 EDT Subject: British & Irish Women's Letters and Diaries; Jose Abeal or Garcia? Message-ID: BRITISH & IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES I've been going through the North American version, but there is also a new database of British & Irish Women's Letters and Diaries. I immediately plugged in that Nigella Lawson dish, "Toad-in-the-Hole." Nothing came up! Who's writing these diaries--Bridget Jones? I'm far from exhausting my food queries, but the database results haven't been all that great. The first "macaroni" is in DIARY OF FRANCES BURNEY D'ARBLEY, FEBRUARY 1772. The first "ice cream" is in DIARY OF LADY MARY CAMPBELL COKE, AUGUST 1767. "Iced tea" does not appear at all. The "kebbeh": that I found in Isabel Burton's writings (Richard Burton's wife) is here. Check out the database contents on the web. I'll probably use it later tonight, and let me know if you want anything searched. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JOSE ABEAL OR JOSE GARCIA? That sloppy "Sloppy Joe" article stated that the Havana bar was owned by Jose Garcia. As I posted here, one source it's Jose Abeal. A Google for "Jose Garcia" turns up the Florida Sloppy Joe's web site. A Google for "Jose Abeal" turns up only one hit, but it's a good one, from 1933. Check it out at www.oldcubaart.com/TN-21.htm. See Havana's Sloppy Joe's as it was in its prime! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 11 10:37:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 05:37:52 -0500 Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: >At 11:35 AM -0700 10/10/02, James Smith wrote: >What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any >specific name? I believe it had no specific name. It was just played. Gerald Cohen From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 11:06:08 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:06:08 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Multiculturalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is an antedating I have discovered for "multiculturalism": multiculturalism (OED 1965) 1957 _Hispania_ XL. 349 The key to successful living here, as it is in Switzerland, is multilingualism, which can carry with it rich multiculturalism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 11:49:15 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:49:15 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Narratology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: narratology (OED 1974) 1971 tr. Tzvetan Todorov in _Diacritics_ I. 44 The typological remarks which I have just offered ... pertain less to _poetics_ than to a discipline which seems to me to have a solid claim to the right of existence, and which could be called _narratology_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Oct 11 12:02:40 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:02:40 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher Message-ID: Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the curtains were attached to; after it dried it could be ironed. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 12:00:39 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:00:39 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Women's Studies" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: women's studies (OED 1972) 1969 _College Composition and Communication_ XX. 265 We urge that CCCC and NCTE work to include preparation for student teachers which will lead to black studies for black students, working class studies for working class students, women's studies, etc. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Oct 11 13:22:12 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:22:12 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: >"Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: >> >> The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >> in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >> in -aire). >> >> Are there more I am missing? ~~~~~~~ Solitaire can be an adjective, in solitaire cards, or solitaire gems. A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 14:35:13 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:35:13 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #As I recall, the narrator was seen throwing a mysterious package into #the river the day Bobby Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahachee #bridge. By Joe. The song is by Bobby Gentry, "Ode To Billy Joe". See http://www.swopnet.com/music/ode_to_bj.html Verse 1 ends: Today Billy Joe MacAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge Verse 5 ends: He said he saw a girl that looked a lot like you up on Choctaw Ridge And she and Billy Joe was throwing somethin' off the Tallahatchie Bridge -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 14:38:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:38:54 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <3DA655A5.BEF1CD51@corn.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. "Featherdusts"? -- Mark Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 15:11:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:11:22 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher In-Reply-To: <001701c2711e$19a07960$1eb89b3f@db> Message-ID: At 8:02 AM -0400 10/11/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried during which time the curtains were waiting on tenterhooks, but not on pins and needles >it could be ironed. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 17:23:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:23:45 -0400 Subject: Downtempo or Chillout Message-ID: DOWNTEMPO OR CHILLOUT From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 October 2002, pg. W10, col. 4: _Clubs Go Upscale With "Downtempo"_ (...) However, since the mid-1990s, a new strain of dance music has emerged and it couldn't be more different. It's a lush, cinematic musical style called downtempo or chillout, and its creators dote more on the nuanced sounds of jazz, bossa nova and dub (instrumental) reggae than hip-hop, rock or R&B. (...) (NYC has also celebrated recently a one-year anniversary of "electroclash"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 17:48:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:48:25 -0400 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms In-Reply-To: <000501c2701b$f1868cb0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:27:47 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:27:47 -0500 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms Message-ID: Larry's post reminded me of an article on saw recently in, I think, Missouri Historical Revew about Dizzy Dean's broadcasting career after his playing days. Apparently, there was a campaign organized by St. Louis schoolteachers to ban Dean from the air b/c he was seen as a corrupting influence on young people's language. He was not allowed to broadcast a Cardinals World Series b/c the commissioner thought his usage was not presentable for a national audience. He was a native of Arkansas, the son of a sharecropper if memory serves. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Fri 10/11/2002 12:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Border States and South-Midlandisms More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:39:10 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:39:10 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher In-Reply-To: <001701c2711e$19a07960$1eb89b3f@db> Message-ID: Yes, otherwise the drying process would result in an uneven length. It's the same principle behind laying a sweater flat and gently pulling the bottom edge level (not that I ever do this anymore). At 08:02 AM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried it could be ironed. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 18:50:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:50:47 -0400 Subject: Featherdust (was Re: Doctrinaire) In-Reply-To: <3DA6EA18.F8F47C95@gwia2.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #Mark A Mandel wrote: #> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #> #> #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. #> #> "Featherdusts"? #Oops. Sorry: it's an old theater (no, theatre) critic's word. Reference #is to mythical monologue that opens Act 1 Scene 1. Woman in maid's #uniform enters, carrying featherduster. Proceeds to dust furniture. # #MAID: I wonder whether the Missus will get back in time to see Mr. #Junior before he leaves. I know she must be with that sneaky Horace #Smith, even though she said she was going to the Garden Club. I think #the Mister must be getting suspicious, because he's starting to bite his #mustache . . . # #In other words, a scene setting monologue or dialogue that introduces #"facts not (yet) in evidence" so the audience knows what they have to #in order to understand the action. Featherdusting in this sense is #also vital in establishing the scene in science fiction; IIRC, the #term was current among fen and in fanzines way back when. Thanks. I inferred something of the kind. A useful and colorful term, albeit opaque. #I hardly expect you, of all people, to ask "what's a -- better, what are #-- fen?" And I won't, for I needn't. -- Mark M. http://world.std.com/~mam/ From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:55:53 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:55:53 -0700 Subject: Jazz redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >At 11:35 AM -0700 10/10/02, James Smith wrote: > >What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any > >specific name? > > I believe it had no specific name. It was just played. > > Gerald Cohen ...an echo from, I think, a Pete Seeger banjo instruction album that quotes an "old-time banjo player" as saying: "Notes? Hell, there's no notes on a banjo; you just play it." Peter R. From AnneR at HKUSA.COM Fri Oct 11 22:20:24 2002 From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:20:24 -0500 Subject: Farm gate Message-ID: When we moved to Taos, NM, we built an enclosure made of field fencing topped with wire. Pre-made gates were expensive, so a neighbor told us how to build an "Arkansas gate" exactly as described -- two wire loops attached to the permanent post, one low and one high. The gate post's bottom was inserted into the bottom loop and the top loop was dropped over the top of the gate post, while pressure was applied to the gate to get it close enough to the loop. The gate post could be easily taken out of both loops and the entire gate swung open; for a quick entrance, just the top loop was removed, we stepped through the "V" and re-looped it behind us. Anne >There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 >horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is >attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one >high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have >around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these >are mirrored in America.) > >Roly Sussex From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 00:47:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:47:33 -0400 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434132@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 1:27 PM -0500 10/11/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >Larry's post reminded me of an article on saw recently in, I think, >Missouri Historical Revew about Dizzy Dean's broadcasting career >after his playing days. Apparently, there was a campaign organized >by St. Louis schoolteachers to ban Dean from the air b/c he was seen >as a corrupting influence on young people's language. He was not >allowed to broadcast a Cardinals World Series b/c the commissioner >thought his usage was not presentable for a national audience. He >was a native of Arkansas, the son of a sharecropper if memory serves. > > All true. (Actually I don't know one way or the other about Arkansas and sharecropping, but it seems to fit.) Curiously, though, McCarver's normal reputation and enemies list are diametrically opposed to those of Ol' Diz. While Dizzy Dean (who was of course even more of a Cardinals' hero on the field iin the 30's than McCarver was in the 60's) was beloved for his down-home humor and "fractured English", complete with all sorts of irregular preterits and participles (e.g. slid, slud, slud) and irregular verb agreement, McCarver is perceived as being a pompous, know-it-all, egg-head type who is always being much too informative with his analysis. The fun-poking at his pronunciation (at least on the-A-ter) is thus very much at odds with his image of over-intellectualizing the game. As far as I know he never uses non-standard grammar (not counting phonology). larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Oct 12 06:33:19 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:33:19 -0700 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 2002 to 11 Oct 2002 (#2002-259) In-Reply-To: <20021012040053.34E5349FD@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:50:47 -0400 > From: Mark A Mandel > Subject: Featherdust (was Re: Doctrinaire) > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: > #> > #> #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. > #> > #> "Featherdusts"? > > #Oops. Sorry: it's an old theater (no, theatre) critic's word. > #Reference is to mythical monologue that opens Act 1 Scene 1. Woman in > #maid's uniform enters, carrying featherduster. Proceeds to dust > #furniture. > # > #MAID: I wonder whether the Missus will get back in time to see Mr. > #Junior before he leaves. I know she must be with that sneaky Horace > #Smith, even though she said she was going to the Garden Club. I think > #the Mister must be getting suspicious, because he's starting to bite > #his mustache . . . > # > #In other words, a scene setting monologue or dialogue that introduces > #"facts not (yet) in evidence" so the audience knows what they have to > #in order to understand the action. Featherdusting in this sense is > #also vital in establishing the scene in science fiction; IIRC, the > #term was current among fen and in fanzines way back when. The term most used in the science fiction community currently for this is "As you know, Bob". The speaker is more likely to be somebody who can't be ordered to shut up than a servant. Example: In Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, the resident bore explains in great detail how fortunate it is that pi exactly equals three. As you know, Mark, the term "science fiction community" generally includes: organized fandom (or fandoms); writers published professionally, and professional editors; semi-professionals; etc. From harview at MONTANA.COM Sat Oct 12 05:08:14 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:08:14 -0600 Subject: Farm gate In-Reply-To: <2E8440B99F0D1B4F9D4F3099A3778FB501295474@exchange4.hkusa.com> Message-ID: Here in Montana ranching country, these are called: gates. Most often, they are constructed from the same horizontal strands of barbed (or "bob") wire from which the fence is made, and also the same type of wooden posts. There is usually a post or two in the middle of the gate if it is of any width at all, and another post at the end which is fastened with the loops (or sometimes a chain) to the gate-post. Often there is a two-foot or so length of post fastened to the gate-post with a length of wire, which one uses as a lever to stretch the gate taut and enable the top loop to be slipped over. I've heard this termed a "granny" or "helper". I suppose there are more colorful words for it. Roly, I'd be interested in hearing some of the 20 A.E. names! Scott Swanson > > >There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 > >horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is > >attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one > >high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have > >around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these > >are mirrored in America.) > > > >Roly Sussex > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Oct 12 17:05:26 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:05:26 -0400 Subject: Farm gate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had these in Minnesota too, but I can't recall a particular name for them besides 'gates'. They were usually short-term fixes, for farm implement access, for example. Steel or wooden gates were permanent. The 'barb(ed)/bob wire' usage interests me. We said 'barb wire', I believe (along the lines of reduced 'ice tea'), but it was always printed 'barbed wire'. Is the 'bob' usage just a matter of r-lessness and respelling, or is there a more complex history for the word? --On Friday, October 11, 2002 11:08 PM -0600 Scott Swanson wrote: > Here in Montana ranching country, these are called: gates. Most often, > they are constructed from the same horizontal strands of barbed (or "bob") > wire from which the fence is made, and also the same type of wooden posts. > There is usually a post or two in the middle of the gate if it is of any > width at all, and another post at the end which is fastened with the loops > (or sometimes a chain) to the gate-post. Often there is a two-foot or so > length of post fastened to the gate-post with a length of wire, which one > uses as a lever to stretch the gate taut and enable the top loop to be > slipped over. I've heard this termed a "granny" or "helper". I suppose > there are more colorful words for it. > > Roly, I'd be interested in hearing some of the 20 A.E. names! > > Scott Swanson > > > >> > There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 >> > horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is >> > attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one >> > high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have >> > around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these >> > are mirrored in America.) >> > >> > Roly Sussex >> From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Oct 12 19:20:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:20:17 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 2002 to 11 Oct 2002 (#2002-259) In-Reply-To: <3DA75FBF.23999.8853EC@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Dan Goodman wrote: #The term most used in the science fiction community currently for #this is "As you know, Bob". The speaker is more likely to be #somebody who can't be ordered to shut up than a servant. Ah, yes; that I'd heard. -- Mark Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 19:48:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:48:16 -0400 Subject: Capuccino (1896); Zucchino (1899); Alfred's Fettucine (1928); Pizzeria (1925) Message-ID: CAPUCCINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Third Part: Southern Italy and Sicily Twelfth Revised Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1896 Pg. XX: _Zuppa inglese_, a kind of pudding (somewhat in the style of a trifle) (...) _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (30-35 c.; "_capuccino"", or small cup, cheaper); or _caffe e latte_, _i. e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUCCHINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker First Part: Northern Italy Eleventh Remodelled Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1899 Pg. XXI: _Zucchino_, marrow, squash. --------------------------------------------------------------- PANINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Northern Italy Leizig: Karl Baedker, Publisher 1913 Pg. XXVI: Roll (_panino_)5, with butter (_pane e burro_) 20 c. (One NYC deli/restaurant is now serving "panini" sandwiches and has "New!" on its window ad--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- ALFRED'S FETTUCINE SO YOU'RE GOING TO ROME! by Calara E. Laughlin Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company Copyright, 1925 and 1928 Pg. 351: Most travellers would blush to admit they had been in Rome and had not eaten Alfredo's _fettucine al burro_, a sort of macaroni with butter, which has netted Alfredo both fame and fortune. Alfredo is at 104 Via della Scrofa. (Movie stars Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford supposedly ate at Alfred's and popularized the dish, also in 1928. The NYPL doesn't have the 1925 book. Who has it?--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- PIZZERIA NEW GUIDE TO ROME AND ITS ENVIRONS by A. D. Tani Third Revised Edition Rome: Enrico Verdesi 1925 Pg. 338 ad: _RESTAURANT MODERNO_ CHOICE WINES OF THE ALBAN HILLS NEAPOLITAN "PIZZERIA" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 19:56:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:56:53 -0400 Subject: Capuccino (1896); Zucchino (1899); Alfred's Fettucine (1928); Pizzeria (1925) In-Reply-To: <4929B2AE.2778D200.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:48 PM -0400 10/12/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >PANINO > >ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS >by Karl Baedeker >Northern Italy >Leizig: Karl Baedker, Publisher >1913 > >Pg. XXVI: >Roll (_panino_)5, with butter (_pane e burro_) 20 c. > >(One NYC deli/restaurant is now serving "panini" sandwiches and has >"New!" on its window ad--ed.) > I'm sure panini are a lot older than NYC restaurateurs want us to believe, but this 1913 entry doesn't really serve as an antedate. While the term is derived as a diminutive of "pane", the current application to a grilled sandwich with various meats and cheeses inside doesn't apply to a small roll with or without butter. It's really a different beast entirely, as I'm sure the NYC deli owner would be happy to elaborate (along with his/her reason for charging you a lot more than the equivalent of 1/20th of a lira for it) Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 19:59:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:59:38 -0400 Subject: Food in ROME IN 7 DAYS (1923) Message-ID: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS A GUIDE FOR PEOPLE IN A HURRY by Arthur Milton London: Mills & Boon Limited 1923 I have about seven minutes! Pg. 22: _Antipasti Misti._ _Costoletta all Milanese._ _Insalata verde._ _Frutta e formaggio._ In English this is:-- _Mixed hors d'oeuvres._ _Veal cutlet, breadcrumbed and fried in butter._ _Green salad._ _Fruit and Cheese._ There are several kinds of cheese. We chose, for example, "_Bel Paese_"--"Beautiful Country"--a mild yellowish cheese from Lombardy. We might have eaten the slightly pungents "_Pecorino_," made from goats' milk, or the excellent, mild "_Stracchino_." There is also "_Mascarpone_," a great Roman specialty, a kind of cream cheese, which is often served as a dessert with sugar and cinnamon. Pg. 29: _Gniccho di potate._ _Fritto misto di pesce._ _Saltimbocca alla Romana._ _Carciofi alla Giudea._ _Zabaione._ The first dish consists of a kind of small dumplings made of potatoes, which may be served either with a meat sauce (_Salsa di carne_ or _Sugo di carne_) or with butter and cheese (_Con burro e formaggio_). THe mixed fry of small fish included many ofthat great delicacy, tiny devilfish. Alternatively we could have ordered _un pesce alla griglia_--a large, grilled fish. The _Saltimbocca_ is made of small pieces of veal, lightly fried in butter with strips of bacon and sage, prepared so tastily that it is said to "jump into your mouth"--whence the name "salta-in-bocca." The artichokes (_carciofi_) are parboiled and then fried whole in a deep vessel of boiling oil until they are crisp, a Roman-Jewish specialty that far surpasses in my opnion any other method of preparing these vegetables. The _zabaione_ is a concoction of whipped yoke of egg, cream, sugar and a drop of Marsala, and is served warm. In hot weather, however, it may be ordered _gelato_--iced. (Gotta go! Five more days of Italian meals left here!--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 22:08:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:08:41 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: <191.bae86f4.2a90af39@aol.com> Message-ID: surrealism (OED 1931) 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, naturalism and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 23:58:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:58:29 EDT Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) Message-ID: David Shulman did some work on "Garrison finish." There are over 300 Google hits, but it doesn't seem to be properly recorded. I did some NEW YORK TIMES checking for him. 29 October 1930, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 18 obituary: Edwar H. (Snapper) Garrison, one of the most famous jockeys in turf history, whose name lives in the expression "Garrison finish," died at 8 o'clock yesterday morning at the Swedish Hospital in Brooklyn. (...) The term "Garrison finish" was earned in 1886, when he was riding for James R. Keene in the Eastern Handicap at SHeepshead Bay. Mounted on Dutch Roller, an outsider not considered by the experts, Garrison pushed his mount through from the ruck in a ding-dong finish which swept the crowd off its feet. The label, applied at that time, has remained a by-word at the tracks for that type of close finish. It was typical of his style of racing. Garrison did not like to be in front. He preferred to hang back and come through in the stretch with a breath-taking finish. (...) 8 June 1893, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3: _LOST IN THE LAST INNING_ _THE GIANTS FAILED TO WIN_ _FROM THE PITTSBURGS._ (....) At the end of the eighth inning yesterday the score between the New-York and Pittsburg nines was even and every enthusiast looked for the Giants to make one of their Garrison finishes. But they didn't. On the contrary, the big Giants pulled up, so to speak, and allowed the youths from Allegheny to get the rail and win hands down. (1893 is the earliest cite for the term on the database--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 00:43:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:43:08 EDT Subject: Panini Sandwich (1976) Message-ID: The first "panini sandwich" in the NEW YORK TIMES is...1976! This, in a city with lots of Italians, and even a Little Italy. There were only three hits ("panini" and "sandwich") in the "Before 1986" database, but there are over 35 hits after that. Here are a few of them. 7 October 1976, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 77: The menu will offer stylish Italianate salads and panini sandwiches... (Caffe Orsini on 56th Street--ed.) 14 April 1982, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 Q&A: A. (...) Speaking of Italian foods, many readers wrote in about an earlier reference to "panini." I stated that the only recipe for panini that I could uncover in my research was for panini di pasqua, or Easter breads. Panini, I was told, is simply the plural of the Italian panino, an overall word for ro lls. One reader wrote that "the sandwiches you get on small rolls in cafes in Italy are 'panini imbotiti'--stuffed rolls." 9 September 1984, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX6: ..., soups, panini (tiny sandwiches filled with Cipriani favorites such as Carpaccio, chicken salad and spectacular prosciutto). (At Harry's Bar in Venice--ed.) 10 February 1999, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. F9 The panini are particularly good, with combinations like cacciatorini, an earthy dried sausage, with goat cheese and tapenade; coppa ham with hot peppers and arugula, and roast chicken with tomatoes and Asiago cheese. The press, the culinary equivalent of a dry cleaner's press, gives the ciabata an irresistible griddled texture and makes each sandwich a compact package, which I prefer to the typical overstuffed sandwich. (At 'ino, 21 Bedford Street, near Downing Street, Greenwich Village--ed.) 15 September 1999, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. F2: _Panini With A Difference,_ _Once Seen Only in Milan_ A New York branch of a legendary Italian sandwich shop has opened on the Upper East SIde. Via Quadronno, 25 East 73d Street, is patterned on the original paninoteca that was started 30 years ago on Via Quadronno in Milan and attracted cutting-edge tastemakers despite an out-of-the-way location. It was such a money maker that the owner, Hans Pauli, wound up buying Sant'Ambroeus in Milan and opening Sant'Ambroeus branches in New York and Southampton, N.Y. Now, he has introduced his heated Italian sandwiches to New York. Unlike most of the panini sold around the city, which are made on soft rolls, Via Quadronno's come on rustic bread, similar to ciabata, making them more of a meal. There are more than 30 varieties, from $5.50 to $13.50, including some open-face tartines. The panini range from simple prosciutto to more inventive combinations like Non Ti Scordar di Me (Forget Me Not); Brie, speck (like Canadian bacon) and pate. ("Panini sandwich" has about 10,000 Google hits--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 02:10:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:10:29 EDT Subject: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS (1923) (continued) Message-ID: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS: A GUIDE FOR PEOPLE IN A HURRY by Arthur Milton London: Mills & Boon Limited 1923 The NYPL book box said "poor condition," but it was in better shape than most non-boxed books. Fortunately, I was able to copy it. "Saltimbocca" was in the prior post. OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1937. Pg. 44: I sipped my vermouth and, my uncle, at my advice, tried an _Americano_, an excellent aperitif. Pg. 44: _Mozzarella in carrozza._ _Ossobuco._ _Insalata di radicchio._ _Torta al cioccolato._ which is, first, a soft white Neapolitan cheese, melted and toasted--a kind of Italian"Welsh Rarebit"; then, a marrow-bone, a Milanese dish, excellent with spaghetti; the salad was made of a kind of dandelion, pleasantly bitter; the sweet was a chocolate cake. Pg. 51: _Pasta asciutta._ _Triglie._ _Pollo alla cacciatora._ _Torta._ _Ananas al maraschino._ _Pasta asciutta_ means any kind of spaghetti or macaroni. It can be served with tomato sauce (_Con salsa di pomodoro_) or with meat sauce (_Al sugo di carne_) or with chicken liver, etc. (_Alla Finanziera_ or _con rigaglie di pollo_). It may be eaten with just butter and cheese, and it is excellent with anchovies (_Con salsa di acciughe_). The fish are small mullets, and may be eaten fried (_fritte_) or in a ragout with tomato sauce and garlic (_allas Livornese_). Pg. 52: The chicken is cooked with a rich wine and tomato gravy. _Torta_ is just cake, and as most restaurants have several kinds ready, it is best to ask to see them (_Ci faccia vedere le torte_) and then to choose what one prefers. The pineapple with maraschino sauce is good with sponge-cake (_Pan di Spagna_). Pg. 68: _Asparagi colle uova._ _Scaloppi di vitella al Madera._ _Puree di mele alla Chantilly,_ a simple meal consisting of: Asparagus with fried eggs. Veal escalope with wine sauce. Stewed apples with whipped cream. Pg. 73: _Prosciutto e melone._ _Pollo alla Romana._ _Asparagi alla Parmigiana._ _Macedonia di frutta con panna._ _Frutta secca._ The first item is ham with melon. When someone asks for _prosciutto_, one is served with smoked ham; _prosciutto cotto_ is boiled ham. This is, of course, served cold. The second course is a specialty of this restaurant, and excellent it is. It is a stewed chicken with sweetish peppers (_Peperoni_) and other tasty trimmings. Pg. 74: The asparagus with parmesan cheese needs no comment, nor the mixed, sliced fruits with whipped cream. The "dry fruit" is usually nuts (_Noci_), dried figs (_Fighi secchi_) and dates (_Datteri_). Pg. 78: _Ravioli._ _Fegatini alla salvia._ _Zucchette fritte._ _Involtini di uva cotta al forno._ _Ricotta._ The first is squares of dough, of the macaroni type, stuffed with meat and served with a meat sauce. The _fegatini_ are chicken livers lightly fried in butter with sage leaves. Next come small fried pumpkins, which could be eaten also, not fried, but _al burro_--stewed with butter; _ripiene_--stuffed with meat; or, as _una frittata con zucchette_, in an omelette. The _Involtini di uva_ was a delightful Sicilian delicacy--raisins wrapped in vine-leaves and then baked. The _Ricotta_ is a kind of cream cheese. Pg. 83: We sat for a time on the rim of the basin, sprayed by the foam of the (Trevi--ed.) fountain, and then I led my relatives across the little square into an excellent restaurant I had discovered there, known to Roman connoisseurs as the "_Neapolitan_" restaurant. Here I ordered:-- _Pizza._ _Uccelletti allo spiedo._ _Patate fritte._ _Puree di marrons con panna._ _Pizza_ is a Neapolitan specialty, consisting (Pg. 84--ed.) of a kind of pancake with cheese or tomatoes, shellfish and onions. My aunt did not care for the look of it--for which my uncle rebuked her--and ordered instead _Ministra di Vongole_, a shell-fish soup, much prized at Naples. We could, of course, have started with spaghetti, since the Neapolitans are famous for their macaroni dishes, one of the best of which is _Spaghetti colle vongole al pomidoro_--spaghetti with shell-fish and tomatoes. The _Ucceletti_ proved to be small birds roasted on a spit with sage leaves; and I ordered some _Polenta_, a kind of meal, to go with them, as well as the fried potatoes. The chestnut puree with whipped cream is, of course, a winter dish. In the same place in the summer I should recommend _fraises Melba_--in Italian, _Fragole Melba_; or just _Panna con cialdoni_--whipped cream and biscuits; or _Cassata alla siciliana_--a mixed ice cream with candied fruit in it; or _Granita di caffe_--iced coffee with whipped cream. Pg. 96: _Zuppa di pesce._ _Sogliole fritte._ _Asparagi selvatici._ _Frutta cotta._ The first is fish-soup, with many small devil-fish in it; then came soles; next, (Pg. 97--ed.) some excellent wild asparagus; and stewed fruit. And, as a matter of course, we had more of the excellent _Carciofi alla Guidea_, the artichokes prepared in the Jewish manner, because this place is their real home. Pg. 97: After the hors d'oeuvres (_antipasti misti_) I offered my relatives the choise of two soups (Pg. 98--ed.) --_Zuppa Pavese_ (a clear soup with a poached egg in it) and _Riso e verdura_ (a rice soup with vegetables). As an entree suggested one of the following dishes:-- _Tortino di carciofi_ (artichokes and egg). _Pasticcio di macaroni_ (macaroni pie). _Risotto con fegatini_ (rice with chicken liver). For our roast, we had _Arrosto di abbachio con piselli_, which is roast lamb (always excellent in Rome) with peas. The sweet was _Omelette dolce_ (Sweet omelette); and we finished up with fennel and fruit (_Finocchio e frutta_). Pg. 104: _Gnocchi di semolina alla Romana._ _Fritto di calamaretti con patate._ _Pollo allo spiedo._ _Fromaggio gorgonzola._ The first course consisted of dumplings of semolina baked with Parmesan cheese; the second of fried devil-fish and potatoes; the third, of chicken cooked on a spit; and the last was, of course, gorgonzola cheese. Pg. 107: After tea (THE WHOLE BOOK, THEY HAVE _TEA_! NO _ESPRESSO_?--ed.)...were we ordered, first, _minestrone_--Italian vegetable soup, with macaroni or rice and beans; it is served cold in the summer (_minestron efreddo_)--following this up with _funghi trifolati_, stewed mushrooms--which also we could have had fried (_funghi fritti_) or with rice (_risotto coi funghi_). We now took our choice of _arrosto di vitella con patate_ (roast veal with potatoes), _rognoni_ al madera_ (kidneys with wine sauce), _animelle al vino bianco_ (sweetbreads with white wine) or _animelle al burro bruciato_ (the same with burnt butter), and _piccione arrosto con insalata cotta_ (roast pigeon with a salad of cold boiled greens). My aunt chose the last, with a beetroot salad (_barbabietole in insalata_). Pg. 109: _Spaghetti con sardine._ _Fritto misto all' Italiana._ _Insalata verde._ Pg. 110: This was macaroni with sardines, a mixed fry, and green salad; and we finished the meal with cheese and fruit. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 02:46:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:46:08 EDT Subject: City of Puppy Dogs and Sausages (1843); Peperoni (1903) Message-ID: CITY OF PUPPY DOGS AND SAUSAGES HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS IN CENTRAL ITALY London: John Murray and Son 1843 Pg. 69: The _mortadella_, everywhere known as the Bologna sausage, still keeps up its reputation, and the _cervellato_, or pudding of raisinns and fine kernels, a favourite dish at the table-d'hotes, is claimed as peculiar to the city. Mr. Beckford has designated Bologna as "a city of puppy dogs and sausages." The dogs of Bologna, so celebrated in the middle ages, which still figure in the city arms, and are alluded to in the epitaph of King Enzius in the church of S. Domenico, were worthy of more respect than is implied in the flippant remark: they have unfortunately disappeared, and no trace of their ancient breed can now be discovered. (The dogs have all disappeared, and now they have sausages? Hm...--ed.) Pg. 249: _Trattorie._ Pg. 250: ...trattoria. Pg. 250: ...Falcone, near the Pantheon, celebrated for the national dishes of _trippa_ and _testicciuola_ (lamb's brains fried)... Pg. 250: _Cafes._ Nazari, in the Piazza di Spagna, by far the best in Rome, famous for its chocolate and _poncio spongato_, with an excellent confectioner's shop adjoining... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PEPERONI Merriam-Webster has 1921 for "pepperoni." OED has 1934. I had posted a NEW YORK TRIBUNE citation from December 1903. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 7 June 1903, pg. 28: _ITALIAN HOUSEWIVES' DISHES_ _Many Uses to Which "A Few Garlics" Are Put by Women of the Mulberry Street Colony--Many Other Stuffings Which Are Popular Among Foreigners._ (...) Roast peppers, "Peperoni arrostiti," are also imported from Italy in cans, 20 cents a can for the best. They come in red and yellow... (...) The largest size, commonly used for the dish described, is "macaroni di zita," down on Mulberry Street, which is dialect for "bride macaroni." Mezzani and spaghetti come next. "Lingua di passi," "sparrows' tongues," are flat like noodles, and "l'assagne" are long ribbons which one sees hung in front of the little macaroni factories of the quarter to dry, peacefully absorbing the dust of the street in the process. Then there are pastina, little grains like barley, and spaghettini, long and fine, like hay, which are used in soup. All sorts of fancy shapes come from Italy, curly, striped, or in rings. One kind, shaped like little cups or scoops, they irreverently dub "priests' ears." The imported macaroni ranges from 7 cents a pound up to 15 for the fancy varieties. (...) The street dainty called "ginney beans" by the New York gamin, is known as "lupini" to the Italians. The beans are boiled, kept in water for two or three days, and sold from the pushcarts of the quarter for a penny a glass. "Ceci," "potch pease," or "chick peas." are roasted in a pan of sand in the oven, and sold at a penny for a much smaller glassful. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 06:19:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:19:36 EDT Subject: Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf (FORWARD's Philologus, 10-4-02) Message-ID: "Philologus" writes a really wonderful column every week for the FORWARD (formerly, the JEWISH DAILY FORWARD). David Shulman told me that this week's column discussed "panini" and "ciabatta." Read the whole thing (http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.20.04/arts4.html) for the "Pas Yisrael Parve" part, but here's the "ciabatta" part > ON THE SUBJECT OF SLIPPERS (you'll see the connection in a minute), a friend > has sent me a label taken from a loaf of bread bought in a New York City > grocery and baked by Fairway Bakery. It says, above the list of ingredients > and the price: "Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf." > (...) > And now for the slippers. "Slipper" is the base meaning of the Italian word > ciabatta, the current fad bread in New York that is widely used for panini, > the machine-pressed sandwiches that are currently in vogue too. The > ciabatta is called that because of its shape, which is long, low and > flattened in the middle, just like a beat-up old house shoe. > > This homey word may lead you to think that, like cappelletti, the "little > hats" of pasta filled with meat that are a traditional Italian dish, or > vermicelli, the angel-hair pasta that literally means "little worms," the > ciabatta is an age-old Italian bread, one of the dozens of regional loaves > that are baked by Italians to this day. Prepare yourself for a surprise. > The ciabatta is about as traditional as the Pas Yisrael label. It was > invented in 1982, in the northern Italian town of Adria, by a retired > racing car driver named Arnaldo Cavallari, who came from a family of flour > millers. Mr. Cavallari — the secret of whose success was a moist dough that > contrasts with the drier dough of standard Italian bread, or of the French > baguette, and that as a result lasts much longer in the pantry —named his > product ciabatta precisely because he wished to give it the patina of > tradition and succeeded so well that today it represents for many people > the epitome of the Italian kitchen. > > It is amusing to find "Pas Yisrael" and "ciabatta" together in this way. > For one thing, it is an illustration of the amazing fusion of cultures that > goes on all the time in America: Here is the ultra-Orthodox community, the > most isolationist of all Jewish groups, adopting and "Judaizing" a > fashionable Italian bread a few scant years after its appearance. And for > another thing, it is a witness to our craving, in an age in which things > our constantly changing, for the signs of tradition. Both the "Pas Yisrael" > label and the word "ciabatta" suggest something that is old and backed by > the religious and culinary authority of the past. It's just an illusion. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 06:23:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:23:21 EDT Subject: Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf (FORWARD's Philologus, 10-4-02) Message-ID: Oops. This is why I hate typing long web addresses. Make that:: http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.10.04/arts4.html From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 17:56:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:56:38 EDT Subject: Chat room Message-ID: According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". - Jim Landau (who thought he had joined a mailing list) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Oct 13 19:06:34 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:06:34 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1931? '28? Let's crank it all the way back to 1917, May 11, 1917: From Francis Steegmuller's excellent biography Cocteau: "After attending some of the Paris rehearsals of Parade (a drawing by Larionov, shows him sitting in the theater beside Diaghilev), Apollonaire wrote his note, which appeared in the newspaper "Excelsior" for May 11 [1917], and then, a week later, in the the ballet program itself. That program note on Parade has become famous because in it the word "surrealiste" is used for the first time." Here's the actual quote from the "Excelsior" article: "This new union -- for up until now stage sets and costumes on the one hand and choreography on the other were only superficially linked -- has given rise in Parade to a kind of 'sur-realisme'." The ballet Parade was a thoroughly modern multi-media Cubist extravaganza, suitably scandalous to Parisian audiences, that featured decor and costumes by Picasso, music by Satie, choreography by Massine, and a libretto by Jean Cocteau. On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 06:08 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > surrealism (OED 1931) > > 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, > naturalism > and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Oct 13 19:27:09 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:27:09 -0500 Subject: "crunchy" Message-ID: I have just boldly gone to a new (for me) universe: National Review Online. The URL is http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/2002_10_06_corner-archive.asp#85547719 where you'll find references to "crunchy conservatives". The word "crunchy" in this sense is new to me, but then I'm just a PH.uddy D.uddy mired in the past. . . NOT as a conservative, however, crunchy or not. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Here's one relevant section out of many: > CRUNCHY, PART IV: [Rod Dreher] Perhaps I've created part of the confusion by using the word "crunchy." If I had known that so many conservatives would sese themselves in my essays, I would have found a better term (and please readers, send in your suggestions). I thought that I and a few of my friends were just eccentric right-wingers; I had no idea so many people shared our sensibilities. "Crunchy" is the slang term used to describe people whose tastes in food and fashion run toward the stripped-down, the "natural" (e.g., "Look at that girl with no make-up; is she crunchy, or what?"). There's a lot of that among crunchy cons, but it really is about their ideas, and how they've implemented those ideas into their lifestyle. The only nod my own wardrobe makes toward crunchiness is the Birkenstocks; my hair is shorter than yours, Jonah. "Crunchy" came into it as a descriptive term only because I wanted to highlight the novelty that there are conservatives whose counter! cultural conservative (traditionalist?) beliefs cause them to rub shoulders at times with leftists outside the liberal mainstream. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 19:38:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:38:08 EDT Subject: Farm Gate; Yankees & NYC Misc. Message-ID: FARM GATE I thought this was like Watergate from the topic title, but no. The book by Baxter Black, HORSESHOES, COWSOCKS & DUCK FEET (NY: Crown Publishers, 2002) has a glossary at the end. Black (of NPR) has written many other books from his columns, and perhaps they also have glossaries. Pg. 256: FENCE STAY: a four-foot piece of twisted wire that keeps barbwire from saggin' between posts. You may also see stays made from Ocarillo skeletons, straight sticks, pieces of bedspring or the occasional car axle. Pg. 257: HOG WIRE: or sheep wire, depending on your part of the country. It is wovewn fencing with a vertical and horiztonal wire crossing at intervals like a tic-tac-toe board. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- YANKEES & NYC MISC. YANKEES--The curse worked! Wha hoppen? From A YANKEE CENTURY (NY: Berkley Books, 2002) by Harvey Frommer, pg. 398: THEY WERE CALLED "Yankees" first by sportswriters Mark Roth of the New York Globe and Sam Crane of the New York Journal. The name first appeared in print on June 21, 1904, in the Boston Herald. (Frommer--who also wrote a NEW YORK YANKEE ENCYCLOPEDIA--mixes several myths. Roth and Crane first called them the Yankees, but the name first appeared in a Boston newspaper? As I said, it first appeared in the NEW YORK EVENING JOURNAL, April 7, 1904. A huge headline that month was YANKEES BEAT BOSTON. I have two fates--people either steal my work, or they get the stuff wrong--ed.) NEW YORK DATE BOOK 2003--Sold near the counters at Barnes & Noble. A big red apple is on the cover. Most of the pages are blank, but there's a little info box on why New York City is called the Big Apple. It's wrong, of course. O.T. MY NYC JOB--It's no secret that NYC is going through hard times, financial and otherwise. It's no secret that transit fines will go up to $2 from $1.50. It's no secret that property taxes may increase by 20%. It's no secret that all of this bad news will be announced after the November gubernatorial election. And it's no secret that many people--probably me--will not take it any more, and will simply choose to leave. Parking fines were the first to go up--they doubled. I'm a parking administrative law judge; the amount of the fine is none of my business. What angers me is when the New York City breaks the law and lies. Department of Finance spokesman Sam Miller said that fines hadn't been increased since 1975 (he told Newsday 1978). This is a lie. The city well knows that the top fine of $40 was increased to $55, and now $105. I told both the AP and Newsday. No correction was made. AP told me nine days ago it was checking. Hey AP, there are old online AP stories about this! I cannot tolerate lying. I have said that an illegal "mitigation memo" was circulated. Some judges leaked this to Newsday, where a story recently appeared. (See also below.) We are "independent contractors"--we get _no_ benefits because we're "independent." Yet the same Sam Miller says it's just fine if the city orders the "independent" judges what to do. Replace me with a "robot." I'm outta here. I'll get to this in a little more detail in a Malta food post (I leave in 24 hours). This city has demoralized an honest man. Mayor Defends Higher Parking Fines Oct 11, 2002 By Dan Janison STAFF WRITER October 11, 2002 Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Friday defended higher parking fines -- and a new policy of lesser breaks for violators with excuses -- as a way to unclog traffic. “If the fine is there, people should pay it,” he said. “The only way you get people not to double-park is to fine them. And if the fine isn’t meaningful they’ll say, hey, it’s cheaper than going to a garage.” As reported Friday in Newsday, the Department of Finance has ordered parking judges to refrain from slashing fines for many violations to less than half based on motorists’ explanations. For some categories, such as “No Standing” and handicapped zones, they are instructed not to mitigate the penalties. With fines recently doubled to maximum levels of $85 and $105 including a surcharge, some administrative law judges see the policy change as compromising due process for motorists. But Finance Department spokesman Sam Miller said the goal is to ensure that judges issue penalties that do not vary widely given the same set of facts. “We do not want an administrative law judge to reduce somebody’s fine by about $60 because they’re wearing a nice suit, and somebody else, who’s wearing a T shirt and jeans, gets it reduced by $30,” Miller said. “These are serious violations.” Bloomberg made the remarks during his weekly radio appearance on the John Gambling show on WABC (770-AM) when a caller identified as Kathy complained that the higher fines amounted to a new tax on small business. “Trucks aren’t a nuisance to the city. They’re a vital part of delivering services ot the city’s mega-buildings,” she said. “It’s easy to say, OK you can’t park here. But where can you park?” Other than to say that most of the fines are issued against cars, not trucks, Bloomberg ducked the question. Gambling said she “has a point -- you’ve got to service the buildings” before taking another call. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 13 20:11:38 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:11:38 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > 1931? '28? Let's crank it all the way back to 1917, May 11, 1917: Perhaps Barry Popik's postings, which use the word "antedating" (actually, he says "antedate") in an idiosyncratic fashion referring to the first use of a word or its cognates or etymons in any language, have spread confusion among other people on this list. When I posted an antedating of "surrealism," I meant the English word, not the French word. This is usually what one means by an "antedating." Nevertheless, Gareth's information is an improvement on what the OED says about the French word. I wonder what _Tresor de la langue francaise_ has to say. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 13 22:00:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:00:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Antedating of "Narratology" Message-ID: From my expert witness on narratology. I suspect Fred's cite will stand up for English. Larry --- begin forwarded text >Gerry, > >Do you have an antedate (in an English language cite prior to 1971) >for "narratology" for the OED? Anything in any of your published >work, for example? Here's your chance (or one of them) to break into >the OED! > >larry To: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: Antedating of "Narratology" Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:33:43 EDT From: Gerald Prince Larry, Alas, no! (though I did coin a couple of words! but they will have to wait, I imagine). Todorov coined the term in French, as you probably know. I think the word "narratologie" first appeared in print in 1969 Gerry >--- begin forwarded text > >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:49:15 -0400 >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: Fred Shapiro >Subject: Antedating of "Narratology" > >narratology (OED 1974) > >1971 tr. Tzvetan Todorov in _Diacritics_ I. 44 The typological remarks >which I have just offered ... pertain less to _poetics_ than to a >discipline which seems to me to have a solid claim to the right of >existence, and which could be called _narratology_. > > >Fred Shapiro > > >--- end forwarded text > > --- end forwarded text From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 13 22:03:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:03:19 -0400 Subject: "my next of the woods" Message-ID: This twist on the idiom "neck of the woods" appeared on the newsgroups alt.cellular.verizon and alt.cellular.nokia . Despite an "organization" header in the ru (Russia) top-level domain, the poster has an attbi.com email address and seems to write native, or at least fluent and generally idiomatic, English. >>>>> Not in my next of the woods (region). The only official requirement is a tri-mode phone. Nothing else... - trepain <<<<< -- Mark A. Mandel From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Sun Oct 13 22:42:12 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:42:12 -0400 Subject: www.urbandictionary.com Message-ID: Found this while googling for definitions to some hax0r terms. http://www.urbandictionary.com/ Design motif looks identical to dictionary.com - though I get a sneaking suspicion they ain't part of that site... like other online slang lexicons, the content here is at least partially user-driven (Add Your Own Word link). (c) date makes it look like this one's been around in some form since 1999.... From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Oct 13 22:39:42 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:39:42 -0400 Subject: Chat room Message-ID: Jim Landau writes, >> According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 >> footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". A *lot* of people don't know the difference. Sshhhh. Let's not tell them. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 23:07:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" Message-ID: Leave me out of this! I have nothing to do with "surrealism"! You want "surrealism," try this: Copyright 2002 Nationwide News Pty Limited The Daily Telegraph(Sydney) October 14, 2002, Monday SECTION: LOCAL-COLUMN- CENTRAL COAST EXTRA; Pg. 7 LENGTH: 72 words HEADLINE: Food Extra SOURCE: MATP BODY: * THE first hot dog was invented by German butcher Johann Geurghehner, who developed a sausage that resembled a hunting dog which he called the "dachshund sausage". In the 1860s, German immigrants in New York began selling "dachshund sausages" in buns with mustard and sauerkraut. The snack was nicknamed a "hot dog" by cartoonist Thomas Dorgan -- he was unable to spell the word "dachshund", so coined the new phrase instead. LOAD-DATE: October 13, 2002 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 00:59:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:59:33 -0400 Subject: Irish Stew (1800); Soup Kitchen (1831); Noodles (1770); Pins & Needles (1727) Message-ID: I searched for "fish and chips" in the BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database. There was no hit! There are still some gems to be found. The database is NOT available in the NYPL (which has the companion NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database), but it's here at NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- IRISH STEW OED has 1814 for "Irish stew." It's on the database, DIARY OF MELESINO CHENEVIX ST. GEORGE TRENCH, October 1800, pg. 112: Lady Hamilton began bawling for an Irish stew, and her old mother set about washing the potatoes, which she did as cleverly as possible. --------------------------------------------------------------- SOUP KITCHEN OED has 1839 for "soup kitchen." It's on the database, DIARY OF LADY SYDNEY OWENSON MORGAN, October 1831, pg. 326: ...he kept crying, "Why don't you eat; pray eat," as if he was feeding the poor Irish at a soup kitchen. --------------------------------------------------------------- NOODLES OED has the same citation as this database for "A noodle soup--this I begged to be explained, & was told it was made only of veal with lumps of bread boiled in it." It's here as DIARY OF LADY MARY CAMPBELL COKE, June 1770. OED has 1779? --------------------------------------------------------------- PINS AND NEEDLES The first citation is LETTER FROM LADY MARY PIERREPONT WORTLEY MONTAGU TO FRANCES PIERREPONT, 1727, pg. 188: These are my present endeavours, and I run about, though I have five thousand pins and needles running into my heart. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 01:11:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:11:27 EDT Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/12/2002 7:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM quotes: > The term "Garrison finish" was earned in 1886, when he was riding for > James R. Keene in the Eastern Handicap at SHeepshead Bay. Mounted on Dutch > Roller, an outsider not considered by the experts, Garrison pushed his mount > through from the ruck in a ding-dong finish which swept the crowd off its > feet. The label, applied at that time, has remained a by-word at the tracks > for that type of close finish. This may explain something that has been puzzling me since 1967. In "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" Robert A. Heinlein (in one of the final military sections of the book) describes spaceships as performing "Garrison didos" (I seem to recall the actual wording was "tight Garrison didoes"). OED2 gives "dido" as "caper, prank" and some sort of fast maneuver as the spaceship neared the end of its approach to the Moon would fit the context. Problem solved? - Jim Landau From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Mon Oct 14 02:18:39 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:18:39 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: The juxtaposition of two NYC items in one post from Barry Popik prompted me to a stunning realization. Doesn't it make sense that if "Big Apple" came out of the speech of stable hands, it's a way of saying that NYC is a big horse apple? (For those who never heard of horse apples, that's just a label for horsecrap.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! These are the items I mean: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > NEW YORK DATE BOOK 2003--Sold near the counters at Barnes & Noble. A big red > apple is on the cover. Most of the pages are blank, but there's a little > info box on why New York City is called the Big Apple. It's wrong, of > course. > > O.T. MY NYC JOB--It's no secret that NYC is going through hard times, > financial and otherwise. It's no secret that transit fines will go up to $2 > from $1.50. It's no secret that property taxes may increase by 20%. It's no > secret that all of this bad news will be announced after the November > gubernatorial election. > And it's no secret that many people--probably me--will not take it any > more, and will simply choose to leave. > Parking fines were the first to go up--they doubled. I'm a parking > administrative law judge; the amount of the fine is none of my business. > What angers me is when the New York City breaks the law and lies. > Department of Finance spokesman Sam Miller said that fines hadn't been > increased since 1975 (he told Newsday 1978). This is a lie. The city well > knows that the top fine of $40 was increased to $55, and now $105. I told > both the AP and Newsday. No correction was made. AP told me nine days ago > it was checking. Hey AP, there are old online AP stories about this! I > cannot tolerate lying. > I have said that an illegal "mitigation memo" was circulated. Some judges > leaked this to Newsday, where a story recently appeared. (See also below.) > We are "independent contractors"--we get _no_ benefits because we're > "independent." Yet the same Sam Miller says it's just fine if the city > orders the "independent" judges what to do. > Replace me with a "robot." I'm outta here. > I'll get to this in a little more detail in a Malta food post (I leave in > 24 hours). > This city has demoralized an honest man. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 14 04:21:06 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:21:06 -0700 Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: My mother happened to use this old expression the other day, and then wondered how it could have come to have the meaning it does, which apparently has nothing to do with a dog. Any suggestions? Rudy From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 14 04:24:49 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:24:49 -0700 Subject: Ocotillo Message-ID: Barry's quotation from Black's book about a farm gate included mention of an "ocarillo". I wonder whether this was an inadvertent typo on Barry's part, or whether Black mis-rendered the name "ocotillo", which is the prevalent name around Arizona. In a land where few things grow straight, they are often used for fences, and even precolonially were used for ceilings of houses (a practice the Spanish picked up and continued). Rudy From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 14 04:25:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:25:51 -0700 Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This may explain something that has been puzzling me since > 1967. In "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" Robert A. Heinlein > (in one of the final military sections of the book) describes > spaceships as performing "Garrison didos" (I seem to recall > the actual wording was "tight Garrison didoes"). OED2 gives > "dido" as "caper, prank" and some sort of fast maneuver as > the spaceship neared the end of its approach to the Moon > would fit the context. > > Problem solved? Good memory. In Chapter 23, there is the line, "They came in on tight Garrison didoes, skimming the peaks; I barely saw the chop-off for Luna City." I wouldn't be so sure that Heinlein's "Garrison" refers to the horse race finish though. He has a habit of using proper names in his writing to give his universe realism. Although, when he does this he tends to use the same names throughout several books (e.g., Forward, Shipstone) and I don't remember another Garrison. Heinlein also uses the word "dido" to refer to a spaceship landing (or making some manuever on final approach or perhaps to a landing beacon the ship deploys) in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, however, and don't remember the exact usage or meaning. All I remember is being puzzled by the term because I had no clue what he was referring to. (The best I could think of was some reference to the Aenied, and I figured that wasn't it.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 05:33:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:33:58 EDT Subject: Ocotillo & Putting on the Dog; Buena Vista Cafe menu (1950?) Message-ID: OCOTILLO---Yes, my "a" looks like "o" and "t" looks like "r." I'm losing my eyesight here. Anyway, I'm leaving the country in 12 hours and I have a lot to do. Sorry for the mistake. PUTTING ON THE DOG--I always confuse with with "try it on the dog." I found a poem about this in the NEW YORK DRAMATIC MIRROR, about 1882. The slang expression started in the theatre in New York, for whatever reason. Is my post in the old archives? BUENA VISTA CAFE MENU (1950?)--I was looking for "Joe's Special" in the Los Angeles Public Library's onlline menu collection, at www.lapl.org. They have a menu from San Francisco's Buena Vista Cafe that I know is not from the "1950." The menu has Kahuna Coffee, Marguerita, and Mai Tai on it. Also: "IRISH COFFEE Introduced to the U.S. at the Buena Vista by Stanton Delaplane." There is a plaque at the Buena Vista about this--the plaque gives a date of 1952! Look at it yourself. Is this a menu from 1950? When is it from? And if I can't trust the LAPL on menu dating, how about that 1920s "cheeseburger"? From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Oct 14 06:21:00 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:21:00 -0400 Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: Rudy Troike >> ...wondered how ["putting on the dog"] could have come to have the >> meaning it does, which apparently has nothing to do with a dog. Any >> suggestions? Only one. The expression--which means pretentiously dressing up or displaying wealth--is an American colloquialism traced by a number of sources to collegiate use in the early 1870s, especially at Yale. But none of the dictionaries I have offers a derivation. The late Bergen Evans, in *Comfortable Words* (Random House, 1962), says that the "most likely explanation" of the phrase, which he defines as "dressing up with unusual splendor," is that: >> ...it was a reference to the high stiff collar (which was called a "dog >> collar") then indispensable to formal wear. Ladies' diamond chokers >> were also called "dog collars" as were the heavily-braided collars of >> officers' uniforms. And since [they] were all...used on highly formal >> occasions...*putting on the dog* would mean preparing for such an >> occasion. >> >> There was a humorous derivative "doggy," meaning spiffy or ornamental. >> [I found this in some other sources, as well.] --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 06:42:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:42:27 EDT Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: See the RHHDAS, A-G, pg. 615, "Dog," 6.a. The first citation is 1865. All I could find is my "try it on the dog" in the newer ADS-L archives. That's the theatrical "dog." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 14 11:30:26 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 06:30:26 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: >At 9:18 PM -0500 10/13/02, Mike Salovesh wrote: >The juxtaposition of two NYC items in one post from Barry Popik prompted >me to a stunning realization. Doesn't it make sense that if "Big Apple" >came out of the speech of stable hands, it's a way of saying that NYC is >a big horse apple? (For those who never heard of horse apples, that's >just a label for horsecrap.) No. The New Orleans stable hands clearly regarded "the big apple" (= NYC racetracks) as something highly desirable, the big time in horseracing; There's no pejorative overtone here. Apples were once regarded as something special, and the big red delicious apples were extra special. Gerald Cohen From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Oct 14 11:50:03 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:50:03 -0400 Subject: Chat room Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:39:42 -0400 > From: Dodi Schultz > Subject: Chat room > > Jim Landau writes, > > >> According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 > >> footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". > > A *lot* of people don't know the difference. > > Sshhhh. Let's not tell them. > > --Dodi Schultz > I find this to be strange that there wasn't care taken to be more precise in this designation. As synchronous (chat room) or 'subchronous' (mailing lists, b-boards) discourse media go, the Internet (which, as I am not writing in German, probably should stop being capitalized) is quickly coming up to speed, and in some aspects surpassing, the facility and popularity of telephone, telegraph, and the USPS. But you knew that already ;) - Drew (who switched to digest to avoid chronic overload) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 15:05:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:05:23 EDT Subject: Hey, Waitress! (2002) Message-ID: HEY, WAITRESS! THE USA FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRAY by Alison Owings Berkeley: University of California Press 334 pages, hardcover, $29.95 2002 Unfortunately, this book was light on the slang. No "Adam and Eve on a Raft" is mentioned in the entire book. The back cover has nice blurbs from Anthony Bourdain (KITCHEN CONFIDENTIAL), Barbara Ehrenreich, Susan Brownmiller, and Letitia Baldrige. The book is all interviews. Pages 6-26, "A BRIEF, AND SUBJECTIVE, HISTORY OF WAITRESSING," might have mentioned the waitress slang a LITTLE bit, but no. Pg. 87: In Margie's experience, "Drop me one!" meant that the kitchen should start cooking a chicken-fried steak. "Pig walkin'!" meant putting together a pork barbecue sandwich to go. Her volume asserted its own pronunciations, encompassed in her strong rural Tennessee tones. The word "floor" got two syllables. The word "believe" got one. She referred to her regular customers as her "reggers." Pg. 97: "I call it nit-pit stuff." She does, spelling it out, _n-i-t p-i-t_. Pg. 131: ..the "Bless This Mess" sign... (I'll check the databases next week for this--ed.) Pg. 252: Irena wore a button that read "Tipping is not a city in China." (Another one for the databases, unless Fred wants to beat me to it--ed.) Pg. 269: From her red-lipsticked mouth issue blazing campy, vampy voices and lingo one deduces from context--"doing Bertha" means cleaning, while "'tron," from the non- (Pg. 270--ed.) sexist yet mocking term "waitron," means waitress--for why interrupt the show? (Hey, author! How about giving us some cites for "waitron"?--ed.) Pg. 270: "I started out cleaning the restaurant, not 'tronning." Pg. 273: Child customers, a.k.a. "Bam-Bams," were prey, too. Pg. 288: Staff drinking, she rushed on, involved "torpedoes": taking a coffeepot to the bar, putting a drink inside, and "inhaling" the contents. Pg. 311: "I am ballsy, and I grab guys' balls occasionally. They give me too much trouble, I grab 'em. 'Hey, I got control here.'" She grabs "at _least_ once a night." Some guys like it, she added. "You can feel a little fluffer coming on sometimes." Lucy and Aileen laughed and laughed. "A _fluffer_?" asked Brian, reddening. "A boner." (I EAT AT ALL THE WRONG RESTAURANTS!--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 15:18:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:18:07 EDT Subject: Garrison didoes Message-ID: n a message dated 10/14/2002 12:26:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > In Chapter 23, there is the line, "They came in on tight > Garrison didoes, skimming the peaks; I barely saw the chop-off for Luna > City." > > I wouldn't be so sure that Heinlein's "Garrison" refers to the horse race > finish though. He has a habit of using proper names in his writing to give > his universe realism. Although, when he does this he tends to use the same > names throughout several books (e.g., Forward, Shipstone) and I don't > remember another Garrison. I don't think it's a matter of reusing NAMES. Heinlein was in the habit of reusing universes (that is, the science, politics, geography, etc. that form the background of a story). "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is set in the same universe as a book he wrote years earlier, "The Rolling Stones". (The connection is that both books share a character, named Hazel iirc, who is a grandmother in the earlier book and then is a child in the later one.) Similarly "Stranger In A Strange Land" is in the same universe as "Red Planet"---again, apparently only a matter of economizing by reusing universes. (Then of course there is the "Future History" series, which dominated the first half-decade of Heinlein's writing career, and to which he returned after a gap of three decades). I do not recall the name "Forward" and I only recall "Shipstone" from "Friday." Could you please tell me which books they appeared in? It would be interesting to see if these books are another case of a repeated universe. > Heinlein also uses the word "dido" to refer to a spaceship landing (or > making some manuever on final approach or perhaps to a landing beacon the > ship deploys) in the book "Starship Troopers." My guess is that "dido" is a US Navy or US Naval Academy slang term for a fancy maneuver. (Heinlein was an Annapolis graduate who served several years in the Navy in the 1930's). > in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, No great loss. Actually, I won't say it's a bad book, although it is didactic to the point of tedium. The problem is that, although the book makes some valid points (I'm sure I could find a few if I bothered to reread the book) it espouses a, shall we say, unappetizing philosophy. I do not recommend the book except to people who like to read books with the intent of analyzing the author's philosophy. In other words, Heinlein has written a book that is readable by literary critics and no one else! - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 14 15:20:42 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:20:42 -0700 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > I wonder what _Tresor de la langue francaise_ has to say. > Tresor de la langue francaise has as the first attested use as: Apollinaire, Tiresias, 1918. (pref. et prol.) L'idealisme vulgaire des dramaturges ... a cherche la vraisemblance dans une couleur locale de convention qui fait pendant au naturalisme en trompe-l'oeil (...) j'ai pense qu'il fallait revenir a la nature meme, mais sans l'imiter a la maniere des photographes. Quand l'homme a voulu imiter la marche, il a cree la roue qui ne ressemble pas a une jambe. Il a fait ainsi du surrealisme sans le savoir. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 15:29:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:29:08 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I don't think it's a matter of reusing NAMES. Heinlein was in the habit of #reusing universes (that is, the science, politics, geography, etc. that form #the background of a story). "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is set in the same #universe as a book he wrote years earlier, "The Rolling Stones". (The #connection is that both books share a character, named Hazel iirc, who is a #grandmother in the earlier book and then is a child in the later one.) Hazel Stone. #Similarly "Stranger In A Strange Land" is in the same universe as "Red #Planet"---again, apparently only a matter of economizing by reusing #universes. And with _The Number of the Beast_ &seqq. he combined all his universes, all of everybody else's universe, our actual universe, and all possible and imaginable other universes into a gigantic meta-universe containing every fucking character he ever invented. The adjective is literal, not expletive. #I do not recall the name "Forward" and I only recall "Shipstone" from #"Friday." Could you please tell me which books they appeared in? It would #be interesting to see if these books are another case of a repeated universe. I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't recall offhand (Robert?). #> in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, # #No great loss. Actually, I won't say it's a bad book, although it is #didactic to the point of tedium. The problem is that, although the book #makes some valid points (I'm sure I could find a few if I bothered to reread #the book) it espouses a, shall we say, unappetizing philosophy. I do not #recommend the book except to people who like to read books with the intent of #analyzing the author's philosophy. In other words, Heinlein has written a #book that is readable by literary critics and no one else! On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on that. Vociferously. I also disagree, but mildly: I don't think it's great, and I don't like the political philosophy and the vast tracts of philosophizing, but it's got good story. -- Mark M. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 14 16:08:07 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:08:07 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely >a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't >recall offhand (Robert?). I think Niven used Robert Forward's name openly in "The Borderland of Sol" BTW. I don't remember it in Heinlein, but I skipped some of the later and larger works entirely. >Heinlein has written a book that is readable by literary critics and no >one else! > >... but it's got good story. I reread it recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with its movie. Future of languages (from "Starship Troopers"): ---------- Montez (South American trooper): "What did you say?" Rico (Filipino trooper, the protagonist of the novel): "Sorry, Bernardo. Just an old saying in my own language. ...." M.: "But what language was it?" R.: "Tagalog. My native language." M.: "Don't they talk Standard English where you come from?" R.: "Oh, certainly. For business and school and so forth. We just talk the old speech around home a little. Traditions. You know." M.: "Yeah, I know. My folks chatter in Espan~ol the same way." ---------- -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 14 16:19:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:19:54 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > surrealism (OED 1931) > > 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, naturalism > and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. Here is a still earlier antedating: 1925 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 23 Aug. 5 Some of the erstwhile titans have become successful writers in Hungary. They went home imbued with the sacred teachings of surrealism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 16:51:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:51:00 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014113639.04a536a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't #>recall offhand (Robert?). # #I think Niven used Robert Forward's name openly in "The Borderland of Sol" #BTW. Which I have read that Forward did not like at all, because of the character's... character. #I reread it recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with #its movie. A Dutch Alp. -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 14 17:15:32 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:15:32 -0700 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But > it was likely > #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't > #>recall offhand (Robert?). Tuckerization? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 18:03:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:03:30 EDT Subject: Maltese food Message-ID: O.T. MALTA I will be in Malta from later today (Monday) until Sunday. For those keeping a scorecard of the past 12 months: Texas, Hawaii, Alaska, New Zealand, China, Korea, Tibet, Mongolia, Galapagos, Ecuador, Cuba, Bahamas, Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Malta, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey. I cancelled Iran. I was thinking about Bali--people told me that it was the safe part of Indonesia, and was cheap right now. Unlike, say, Tibet, Malta is a place I might want to live. It'll be an EU member in a year. You can travel all over Europe and Africa from there. It's very clear from what I've been through that New York is not my home. I would hate to leave David Shulman. I remember when he went into the hospital a year ago, and was waiting for 20 hours in the emergency room. I wrote to the New York Post about this hospital disgrace, but nothing was printed. Last Friday, the Post published a photo of David Letterman sitting in his car in traffic. Even fans on alt.fan.letterman didn't understand why this was news. That's New York in a nutshell. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MALTESE FOOD LONELY PLANET--MALTA by Neil WIlson Melbourne: Lonely Planet Publications 1st edition--August 2000 Pg. 59 box: _The Fenkata_ A _fenkata_ is a big, communal meal of rabbit, usually eaten in the countryside. Pg. 59: The traditional Maltese snack is the _pastizza_, a small parcel of flaky pastry filled with either ricotta cheese or mushy peas. A couple of Pastizzi make for a tasty--if somewhat high-fat--breakfast or afternoon filler. Another traditional snack, much loved by Maltese children, is _hobz biz-zejt_, slices of bread rubbed with ripe tomatoes and olive oil until they are pink and delicious. (...) _Ftira_ is a bread baked in a flat disc and stuffed with a mixture of tomatoes, olives, capers and anchovies. You will either love or hate _gbejniet_, the small, hard, white cheese traditionally made from unpasteurized sheep's or goat's milk. (...) One of Malta's favourite sweetmeats is _mqaret_, diamond-shaped pastries stuffed with chopped, spiced dates and deep-fried. _Qubbajt_ is Maltese nougat, flavoured with almonds or hazelnuts and traditionally sold on festa days. Pg. 60: _Soppa tal armla_ The so-called "widow's soup" is traditionally made only with ingredients that are either green or white. Basically a vegetable soup, it contains cauliflower, spinach, endive, and peas, poured over a poached egg, a _gbejniet_ and a lump of ricotta cheese. _Minestra_ Minestra is a thick soup of tomatoes, beans, pasta and vegetables, similar to Italian minestrone. _Timpana_ A rich pie filled with macaroni, cheese, egg, minced beef, tomato, garlic and onion, timpana is a Sicilian dish not dissimilar to Greek _Pastitsio_. _Aljotta_ This is a delicious fish soup made with tomato, rice and lots and lots of garlic. _Ravjuletti_ This is a Maltese veriety of ravioli (pasta pouches filled with ricotta, parmesan and parsley). _Bragioli_ These are prepared by wrapping a thin slice of beef around a stuffing of breadcrumbs, chopped bacon, hard-boiled egg and parsley, then braising these "beef olives" in a red wine sauce. _Fenek_ Fenek--rabbit--is _the_ favourite Maltese dish, whether fried in olive oil, roasted, steweed or baked in a pie. _Torta Tal-Lampuki_ The local fish speicalty is _torta tal-lampuki_, or _lampuki_ pie. Lampuka (_Coryphaena hippurus_)--plural _lampuki_--is known in ENglish as dolphin fish, dorado or mahi-mahi. BLUE GUIDE: MALTA AND GOZO by Geoffrey Aquilina Ross London: A&C Black 5th edition, September 2000 Pg. 22: First, try the _hobz_, Maltese bread. It is truly praiseworthy--delicious, crusty and flavoursome. If you enjoy Italian _bruschetta_ try the Maltese version called _hobz biz-zejt_ (bread dribbled with oil, rubbed with halved tomatoes and sprinkled with salt, pepper and herbs; capers are optional); there's nothing finer. Look out for _timpana_, a macaroni pie made with minced meat, aubergines, eggs and ricotta cheese wrapped in a case of flaky pastry. Or _ros-fil-forn_, which is much the same as _timpana_ except rice is used instead of pasta. Then there's _bragioli_ which are rolled slices of beef that have been stuffed and _torta tal-lampuka_, a fish pie. (...) Then there are _gbejniet_. (Pronouncing this is easier than it looks: Jib-bay-nee-it.) (Pg. 23--ed.) This is a popular local cheese made from sheep or goat's milk and is enjoyed either soft and new with a salad or allowed to harden and enjoyed with _galletti_, Malta's delightful plain, crunchy biscuit. THE ROUGH GUIDE TO MALTA & GOZO by Victor Paul Borg London: Rough Guides Ltd. First edition published November 2001 Pg. 257: Cheapest of all foodstuffs are the _pastizzi_--pockets of puff pastry filled with ricotta or mashed peas, sold by specialized kiosks on city streets and in cafes. Pg. 259: Bulky and cheap bread-based snacks include the popular _hobz biz-zejt_, a roll filled with capers, olives, basil, mint, tomatoes and tuna or anchovies and drizzled with vegetable oil; and _ftira_, a roll of flat bread, usually grilled and filled with a variety of ingredients of your choice... Maltese specialties include _gbejniet_--sheeps' milk mini cheese, which are dried and pickled in pepper, vinegar and salt as _gbejniet bil-bzar_, or eaten soft as _gbejniet friski_. (...) _fenkata_... _bragioli_... Pg. 260: _lampuki_... _Octopus_... _Amberjack_... Another Maltese specialty is _aljotta_, a soup based on (Pg. 261--ed.) fish stock, with marjoram, tomatoes, onions, garlic, lemon juice and vinegar. (I didn't get to the cookbooks. I have to run!--ed.) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 14 18:07:03 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: Hey, Waitress! (2002) Message-ID: Tending bar in the late 60's they were always Waitrons and Bustroids (clip) > from the non- (Pg. 270--ed.) sexist yet mocking term "waitron," means > waitress--for why interrupt the show? > (Hey, author! How about giving us some cites for "waitron"?--ed.) > > Pg. 270: "I started out cleaning the restaurant, not 'tronning." From sylvar at VAXER.NET Mon Oct 14 18:07:07 2002 From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:07:07 -0700 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on that. > Vociferously. On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on *any* given assertion. Vociferously. Ben -- "If there were a verb meaning 'to believe falsely', it would not have any significant first person, present indicative." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 14 18:12:21 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:12:21 -0400 Subject: O.T.: Maltese food Message-ID: Get real, Barry. You won't be happy living anywhere that doesn't have top-quality library facilities. You're restricted to New York, Washington, London, and some university towns. John Baker From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:12:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:12:17 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: <000701c273a5$4e2daed0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #> #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But #> it was likely #> #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't #> #>recall offhand (Robert?). # #Tuckerization? When a real person is included* as a character in an sf story, that is called tuckerization, after an author who did a lot of it. I most recently saw the term on rec.music.filk**, w.r.t. a character who is named Jordin Kare and is an astronautical engineer. There is a real Jordin Kare who is a filker** and an astronautical engineer. (He wears a T-shirt saying "Yes, as it happens, I *am* a rocket scientist!") Apparently the author auctioned off the opportunity to appear as a character, and his wife bought it as a present for him. *"Included" by name, not necessarily in any other respect. I'm not sure if it includes things like quasi-naming (a term I just invented for it); e.g., in Niven & (Pournelle?)'s _Fallen Angels_, a novel in which fandom is central to the plot, and we see e.g. the armed and anti-government fannish singer Jennie Trout, whom fannish readers recognize as a calque of Leslie Fish. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname ** http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:29:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:29:08 -0400 Subject: what do you call...? Message-ID: In our neighborhood bake / coffee shop, a branch of the Panera chain, my daughter & I saw a sign reading Feeling cinnamental? and promoting various cinnamon-flavored products in their current "Cinnamondo" promotion. She asked what I as a linguist would call "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. The best I could say was that it's a type of blend, and dependent on the nasal-flap pronunciation of "sentimental". (For strict homophony it would require dInIs-raising -- what do we call that? -- but the pun works for me without that.) -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:31:05 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:31:05 -0400 Subject: pronominal "such" Message-ID: On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" and... the like: > She asked what I as a linguist would call > "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. How long has that been around? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:34:35 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:34:35 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help whoever's next?" (She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion threads.) -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 14 20:39:40 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:39:40 -0700 Subject: pronominal "such" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't reckon I ever did hear tell o' setch. PR On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that > she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" > and... the like: From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Oct 14 21:46:01 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:46:01 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help >whoever's next?" > >(She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time >together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I >figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion >threads.) I first noticed this locution shortly after I moved to New Haven, almost 15 years ago. It was used by all of the counter workers at the coffee joint closest to the lab. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From self at TOWSE.COM Mon Oct 14 21:47:06 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:47:06 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: Alice Faber wrote: > > Mark A Mandel wrote: > >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which > >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help > >whoever's next?" > > > >(She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time > >together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I > >figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion > >threads.) > > I first noticed this locution shortly after I moved to New Haven, almost 15 > years ago. It was used by all of the counter workers at the coffee joint > closest to the lab. Probably originated as a co-mingling of "Who's next?" "Can I help you?" Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 14 21:49:24 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:49:24 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: I've encountered the horse-apple derivation of "The Big Apple" at least several times over the past decade, advanced orally and always seriously. So I missed the tongue-in-cheek spirit of Mike Salovesh's suggestion. (Add emoticon for dejection here). Gerald Cohen >At 12:47 PM -0500 10/14/02, Mike Salovesh wrote: > >Aw, shucks. You're trying to take away my chance to crap on the Big >Apple -- something it's very hard for an old Chicago boy to pass up. > >I post folk etymologies of two types. > >Type 1: Alleged etymologies I have heard repeatedly from lots of folks, >regardless of their historical accuracy. I try to identify folk >etymologies by citing the range of folks I heard saying them. Cf. my >comment on doozy=Duesenberg. > >Type 2: Fake etymologies I invent out of my own little pointed head as >comments on something else. > >I mistakenly thought Big Apple=Horse apple was an obvious Type 2. Guess >I wuz wrong. I guess maybe I shoulda used a emoticon. Maybe I shoulda >stood in bed. > >-- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 00:38:38 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:38:38 EDT Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: << What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any specific name? >> I'm coming to this discussion late, but I seem to remember having heard that the predecessor name was "ragtime." Nowadays, I realize, "ragtime" has a more specialized meaning. - Allan Metcalf From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 00:56:55 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:56:55 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <3DAB3B5A.8E0B2496@towse.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Towse wrote: #Probably originated as a co-mingling of "Who's next?" "Can I help #you?" I suggested as much to her, and she pointed out the different intonational contours as counterevidence. -- Mark A. Mandel From pds at VISI.COM Tue Oct 15 02:08:24 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:08:24 -0500 Subject: The Man Message-ID: Any truth to the following etymological assertion? [from another listserve] >These [post civil war southern Democrats] would be the guys who >owned most of the land that the landless farmers would work as tenants, >becoming slightly more indebted each year to the "Provisioning Man". This is >the guy who ran the store where they got all their stuff, bought on credit >against their crop yields. Curiously most years those crop yields wouldn't >be enough to wipe out the debt and "The Man" (yes, that's where the phrase >comes from) would come around looking for payment. [and in a later post by the same writer] >Oh yeah, I forgot to say that most of my Populist info/analysis is based on >reading the peerless "The Populist Moment" by Lawrence Godwyn I note that Lighter's earliest citations for "The Man" are from 1918 and refer to a naval officer and a prison warden. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From yvonne_frasure at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 15 03:28:34 2002 From: yvonne_frasure at YAHOO.COM (yvonne frasure) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:28:34 -0700 Subject: Tatterdemalion Message-ID: What is the origin of tatterdemalion (a.k.a. ragamuffin)? Yvonne --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 15 10:33:26 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:33:26 -0400 Subject: FW: Border States and South-Midlandisms Message-ID: larry h said: >> More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). << McCarver's partner on Fox baseball (regular season and now in postseason) is indeed Joe Buck, son of the late, great Cardinals (baseball AND football, at one time) broadcaster Jack Buck. Joe was raised in St. Louis, but is so studied a broadcaster that he might have fallen prey to schoolmarmism. btw, I recall that there were some ADS-L postings recently on Jack Buck, just after his death. He popularized a few expressions. Frank Abate From cabbagelooper at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 15 14:01:36 2002 From: cabbagelooper at YAHOO.COM (taylor j) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:01:36 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard bank tellers in Gainesville, FL saying "Can I help who's ever next?", in addition to the versions noted by your daughter. I'm curious: is the "who's next" variant derived from the "who's ever" (the 'ever' dropped)(this strikes me as unlikely-- why would anyone generate 's in the middle of a word, even as an error?) or is the "who's ever next" a blend of "who's next" and "whoever's next"? Or something else entirely? Joanna Taylor --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help > who's next?", which > only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of > "Can I help > whoever's next?" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 14:50:53 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:50:53 EDT Subject: Garrison didoes Message-ID: In a message dated 10/14/02 12:51:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > #I reread [Starship Troopers] recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with > #its movie. > > A Dutch Alp. "ALP" = "Avoid Like the Plague"? In which case, what is the significance of "Dutch"? - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 15:02:56 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:02:56 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> #I reread [Starship Troopers] recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine #by comparison with #> #its movie. #> #> A Dutch Alp. # #"ALP" = "Avoid Like the Plague"? In which case, what is the significance of #"Dutch"? "Better than the movie 'Starship Troopers'" isn't saying very much. "A Dutch Alp" = 'a very tall mountain, in terms of a very flat country' = 'a big frog in a small puddle' = 'something claimed to be important (big, excellent, etc.), which actually can be called so only by comparison with others that are notably lacking in that quality'. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 15:07:03 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:07:03 -0400 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) Message-ID: Barry Popik's post titled "Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922)" reached me looking like this: >>>>> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Bapopik at gcom.ru Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) Parts/Attachments: 1 Shown ~12 lines Text 2 52 KB Audio ---------------------------------------- KOSHER I went back to THE OCCIDENT AND AMERICAN JEWISH ADVOCATE. It has "kasher" in 1843. The November 1846 "kosher" is really "kasher." However, from February 1847, pg. 553: On the subject of Shochetim, and the sale of <<<<< And that was all. The text cut off in the middle. I did not try to deal with the alleged 52K audio file, partly because it'd be a major nuisance to do so with my current connection and partly because I'm not at all sure it would be what it purports to be, rather than, say, a nasty virus. -- Mark A. Mandel From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 15 15:18:37 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:18:37 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <20021015140136.47092.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of taylor j > Sent: Tuesday, 15 October, 2002 07:02 > > I've heard bank tellers in Gainesville, FL saying "Can > I help who's ever next?", in addition to the versions > noted by your daughter. I'm curious: is the "who's > next" variant derived from the "who's ever" (the > 'ever' dropped)(this strikes me as unlikely-- why > would anyone generate 's in the middle of a word, even > as an error?) or is the "who's ever next" a blend of > "who's next" and "whoever's next"? Or something else > entirely? > > Joanna Taylor From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Oct 15 15:29:19 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:29:19 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Mandel writes: >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help >whoever's next?" ~~~~~~ I wonder whether formulaic expressions like these that have to be repeated many times, perhaps in slightly distracting circumstances, aren't particualrly susceptible to odd deformations. There is an awkward angularity to "Can I help whoever's next" that almost invites a stutter or some kind. A. Murie From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 15 15:43:09 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:43:09 -0400 Subject: Rogues' Gallery Message-ID: 1857: Daguerreotype Gallery of Criminals at the Detective Police Office. *** There must be positive proof that the man or woman, girl or boy, whose likeness is added to the Rogue's Gallery of the Detective Police, is an incorrigible offender. . . . NY Times, December 5, 1857, p. 1, col. ? 1858: His likeness was taken and hung in the rogues' gallery, as it should have been before. NY Times, May 22, 1858, p. 1, col. ? 1858: THE THIEVES' GALLERY. *** While at Headquarters, the doctor was invited to look at the Thieves' Gallery, and in scrutinizing the countenance of this and that notorious character, his eye suddently fell upon the likeness of the scamp who had swindled him out of the $100. *** New-York Daily Tribune, June 28, 1858, p. 7, col. 4. 1860: He was then shown a picture of Charles, in the Rogue's Gallery, and in it recognized the man who had addressed him on the boat. New-York Daily Tribune, January 17, 1860, p. 7, col. 4 The OED has "rogues' gallery" from 1859, so the 1857 reference is an antedating of only 2 years, but it is of interest because the story makes clear that the daguerreotype collection of portraits of villains was begun only "a few weeks since" and contained only "twenty-eight likenesses of well-authenticated culprits, male and female". We notice with approval the gender-blind nature of the collection, and also the concern for civil liberties shown in the fact that perpetrators were not photographed on their first arrest, but only after they had proven themselves to be "an old and hardened offender". So we seem to have this term treed, at least for America. I see from the Reader's Encycl. of American History that Philadelphia did not establish a police force until 1858, and presumably the constablulary or watch system that was in place in 1857 and earlier would not be likely to have kept a portrait gallery of this sort; and other US cities also seem unlikely to have felt the need for a rogues' gallery. I found the first two items recently through the NYTimes historical database; the last two I had found some time ago through reading the Tribune. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Oct 15 15:44:59 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:44:59 -0500 Subject: job post Message-ID: Chair. Lewis Department of Humanities, Illinois Institute of Technology, Chicago, seeks a teacher-scholar in any humanities discipline with administrative experience. The successful candidate must be able to lead and advocate effectively to take advantage of growth opportunities. We are especially interested in candidates whose excellent research and undergraduate teaching complement the department's current strengths in the humanistic study of science, technology, architecture, and the city. We seek candidates who can develop faculty, programs and curricula that will be of interest to IIT's diverse, international student body. IIT is a mid-sized, private university specializing in educating engineers, scientists and architects. IIT also offers extensive graduate and professional programs in business, design, law and psychology. The humanities department offers a B.S. degree in Humanities as well as several B.S. and M.S. degrees in technical communication and information architecture; it also offers undergraduate general education courses in history, art and architectural history, philosophy, literature, language, and communication. Rank: tenured associate or full professor. Salary: competitive. Send electronic (preferred) letter of interest and c.v. by November 25, 2002, to mcmorris at iit.edu, or hard copies to: F. R. McMorris-Chair, Department of Applied Mathematics, Illinois Institute of Technology, 10 West 32nd Street, E1, Rm 208, Chicago, IL 60616. AA/EOE -- - Gregory J. Pulliam Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities 218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL 60616 312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465 pulliam at iit.edu http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Oct 15 16:21:19 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:21:19 +0100 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Barry Popik's post titled "Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922)" > reached me looking like this: Its size, of 69K, is the give-away. I got a copy, too, a few moments ago. It's an example of the Bugbear virus (incidentally, one of the better-named of its breed). If anyone else gets it, don't open the attachment. If you can spot it ahead of you on the mail server, don't even download it! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 15 16:33:47 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:33:47 -0700 Subject: Gooja In-Reply-To: <3DAC4E8F.28911.F777A23@localhost> Message-ID: This appeared today on the Usenet newsgroup alt.fan.cecil-adams. I've found other citations for "gooja" going back to Feb. 2001: "> Does anyone here use Deja anymore? I thought we "googled". Are there any > holdovers who still prefer Deja? You can't "Deja". If you go to http://www.dejanews.com you get Google groups. We "google" for websites. We "gooja" for newsgroup archives." From mlv at POBOX.COM Tue Oct 15 16:42:33 2002 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:42:33 -0400 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) In-Reply-To: <200210151358.g9FDw4Ol597673@oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header which showed: Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu [132.235.203.98]) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Also, I saw it personally, not via the list (I get the list in digest form daily, so any mail by Bapopik sent to me personally is a surprise). This also means that I'm probably in this person's address book. That means it's almost certainly someone on this list, because I (unfortunately) don't otherwise associate with linguists. I don't know what kind of virus it is, but someone identified it as bugbear. And of course, if you open the attachment, update your virus checking software and scan for viruses (you are probably now infected). Michael From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Oct 15 17:18:09 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:18:09 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: Bemjamin: > The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. > "Who's ever next" sounds more or less normal to me, especially after having lived in Texas for a while. "Who's next" sounds kinda strange. I don't know about you, but I've never heard "who's next" out here. It's usually(in grocery stores, etc), "Can I help the next person in line", or "I can help you at ___" Anne G Live from Seattle, Washington --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 15 17:08:30 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:08:30 -0500 Subject: baseball terminology messages from 19cBB discussion list Message-ID: I'm on the discussion-group list for 19th century baseball and recently received various messages about baseball terminology, a topic which overlaps with ads-l interests. I'll be happy to forward baseball-terminology messages to ads-l and send any ads-l input on their content back to the 19cBB list. Here now are two messages which arrived today. Gerald Cohen [item #1]: >At 9:46 AM -0400 10/15/02, Shieber, Tom wrote: >To: "'19cBB at yahoogroups.com'" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "Shieber, Tom" >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:46:51 -0400 >Subject: RE: [19cBB] Terminology >Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com > >Folks - > For what it's worth, I have read many hundreds of game accounts from >the 1850s and early 1860s and have yet to see the word "dead" as a synonym >for "out" in any account of a baseball game. (By baseball, I am here >referring to the New York Game). Of course, this doesn't mean that it never >was used, but if it was it was extremely rare. > - Tom Shieber [item #2]: >At 12:28 PM -0400 10/15/02, Greg Rhodes wrote: >To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com >From: Greg Rhodes >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:28:53 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Re: Vintage terminology > > >The thread on terminology is of great interest to those of us in the >Vintage ball experience. I strongly believe we ought to be a >research-grounded enterprise. That is, the customs of play, the terms >we use, the equipment we use, should all be derived from research. That >would mean club rules and scorebooks from the period, newspaper >accounts, box scores, and most importantly of all, the baseball guides >(which include the rules). Recollections of players and officials >published years later are also useful. > >We should be able to justify the terminology we use in vintage ball by >referring back to examples of their use from the period. We should not >be using terms that we think were in use, or we know were in use before >or after the period, but we have scant or no evidence of their use from >the era we are recreating. > >As Tom Shieber points out in his most recent post, the word "dead" for >outs is missing from the newspaper accounts of the 1850s and early >1860s. Yet this is a term I have often heard --and used myself. Paul >Hunkele recently noted on this list: > >"Dead" is apparently an early slang for "out", which appears to >be a holdover from "soaking"; the pre 1845(?) rule allowing runners to be >'killed' by a thrown ball. During the years of carnage of the American >Civil War, calling runners "dead" or "hands dead" was replaced with "lost" >or "hands lost" (as apparently they had their fill of death), and later >"hands out". > >What are the sources on "dead" being used in baseball prior to the Civil >War? And for those teams recreating the Red Stocking era of the late >1860s (fly game), is there any evidence "dead" was in common use then? >Paul, would you feel that you are seeing a correct interpretation of the >era if players used the term "dead" in an 1860 recreation? How about an >1869 presentation? Also interesting that you note that "safe" is not >used in the early 1860s. What about in the guides? I will have to check >that. Does anyone know when "safe" came into common usuage? According to > Dickson's Baseball Dictionary, the first recorded use of "safe" was in >1862. But that doesn't mean it immediately became widely used. > >Here are four other terms that have been mentioned lately and that are >widespread in the vintage movement (there are many other terms in use, >but let's start with these): > >Behind for catcher >Hurler for pitcher >Crank for fans >Striker for batter > >Striker appears in the rules throughout the 1860s and is certainly >justified. I have never seen crank used in the 1860s and for good >reason; it was not used until the 1880s according to Dickson's Baseball >Dictionary. Hurler, according to the Baseball Dictionary , was not used >until 1908. (That the vintage movement continues to use these >terms--crank and hurler--for 1860 games is embarrassing. For clubs >representing museums or historic sites to use these terms is an insult >to the professional standards of those institutions. It is the >equivalent of going to a Civil War reenactment and having soldiers >referred to as "doughboys." We would laugh at such a presentation, and >those who know better are appalled at us for continuing to foist these >terms on an unknowing audience.) > >As for behind, it is certainly not widely used in the newspapers and I >have never seen it in a 1860s box score. I read with some interest that >Paul H. did see it in an 1867 account: > >I have seen "behind" used in reference to the catcher's position in an 1867 >match summary. "Behind" was used in '67 to refer to the catcher's position >in the same manner "in the field" referred to an out-fielder. > > >And Gordon Hylton also wrote about the "behind": > >I think some of these terms remained in use in parts of the country long >after they pass out of the official baseball parlance. In my childhood >in southwestern Virginia--I was born in 1952--I remember older >people--probably born in the 1910's--regularly referring to the catcher >as the "hind catcher" which I assume is a modification of the much >earlier "behind." > >Are occasional references to "behind" in the newspapers from the 1860s, >or recollections and regional use such as Mr. Hylton notes strong enough >justification for using the term "behind?" I would argue they are not. > I would like to see much more widespread use of a term in sources of >the period before the vintage movement adopts it as widely as we have >this term. I would argue that we are on much stronger ground by using >the term "behind" sparingly and using "catcher" much more often. I am in >the process of going through the guides I have from the 1860s (Beadles >guides from the 1860s, and the DeWitt's Guide from 1869) to see how >often they use the term "behind". > >In fact, I think we could solve a lot of problems by agreeing to use the >guides as our primary reference source for all that we do in vintage >ball. If teams want to deviate or offer an alternative interpretation, >then the onus is on them to do the research and support their position. > >Greg Rhodes > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 15 18:23:08 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:23:08 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <20021015164233.GA19757@homb.org> Message-ID: Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, à 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a écrit : > This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. > > It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a > Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header > which showed: > > Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu > [132.235.203.98]) > by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with > SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; > Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David Bergdahl. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 18:55:35 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:55:35 -0700 Subject: pronominal "such" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's been around at least since my grade school days in the early 50s. I remember reading a lightly humorous short story in about 5th grade which included this bit of dialog: "Do I understand you are...[adjectival phrase or name???]," he asked. "You understand exactly such," she answered. I can't imagine why I remember this, except perhaps because it was the first time I'd encountered "such" used in that way. It seemed to make perfect sense, though. PMc --On Monday, October 14, 2002 4:31 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that > she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" > and... the like: > >> She asked what I as a linguist would call >> "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. > > How long has that been around? > > -- Mark A. Mandel **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 15 19:05:46 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:05:46 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <27E24EE3-E06B-11D6-9A1D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: ...and Bergdahl has a Mac so, Bev??? --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:23 PM -0400 Grant Barrett wrote: > Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, à 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a > écrit : > >> This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. >> >> It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a >> Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header >> which showed: >> >> Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu >> [132.235.203.98]) >> by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with >> SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; >> Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) > > We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David > Bergdahl. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 15 19:57:42 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:57:42 -0400 Subject: Tatterdemalion In-Reply-To: <20021015032834.52558.qmail@web21305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >What is the origin of tatterdemalion (a.k.a. ragamuffin)? Nobody knows exactly AFAIK. Here is as good a Web explanation as I can find right away (in case Michael Quinion is reluctant to toot his own horn): http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-tat1.htm The early pronunciation presumably rhymed with "stallion" or "Italian" (per OED) and the "l" was often doubled in spelling. The word was rhymed with the word "Italian" in its early use by Jonson in 1611, quoted in the OED: I don't know whether this is what is meant by "said as though it were Italian" in Quinion's page. Quinion refers to the latter part of the word being derived from French "maillon" or Italian "maglia". I don't know offhand who suggested such derivations or with what evidence. These are both apparently derived from Latin "macula" meaning "space/loop [in a net]" ... thence Italian "maglia" = "knitting"/"knit shirt"/etc. (apparently via Occitan "malha") and French "maille", whence "maillot" = "knit garment" etc. Apparently there are also French "maillon", Occitan "malhon", both meaning approx. "link"/"loop"/"ring", and Italian "maglione" = "sweater" or so. However I suspect that the "-ion" ending in "tatterdemalion" is fanciful by analogy with "cullion"/"gullion" (cf. "hellion"/"hallion", "rapscallion"/"rampallion", "scullion"), intended to mean or connote "wretched/lowly person". Is the "-de-" just fanciful or is it part of an identifiable etymon? I don't know, but compare French "démailler" ("de'mailler") = "break the links of", "unravel [a knit garment]"/"make a run in [a stocking]": the verb is old enough, but I don't know about its precise usage ca. 1600 nor about whether it might have been used then in English (nonce perhaps). So I would speculate that maybe the coinage reflects "tattered" + "démaillé" (= "[un]raveled") + "-ion". This would seem reasonable semantically, and perhaps as good a casual conjecture as any I've seen. I see only now that a similar conjecture has been presented previously on the Web -- http://hometown.aol.com/oddother/page6.htm -- with "desmaillier" (the difference in spelling of the French verb appears to be insignificant). -- Doug Wilson From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 20:12:28 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:12:28 -0700 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <1375805.3243683146@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This morning on NPR Bob Edwards said "long-lived" with a diphthong [ai] in the second element rather than what one usually hears as [I] (woops: that's not an ell, but a small capital eye). In doing so, he won my gratitude as an ally in a lonely (and perhaps futile or even utterly misguided) battle for the understanding of what "-lived" means. I take it to mean 'having a life,' i.e. 'having a long life,' which would justify the [ai] pronunciation. When I was a tad I always pronounced the _-lived_ as I did _lived_, but then one day I changed forever when I heard my father say "short-lived" to rhyme with, um, "multi-wived" (for lack of a better example). Did anyone else hear this pronunciation by Bob Edwards and thus resolve to renew immediately that NPR membership during this nagging, money-hustling week? Peter R. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 20:34:17 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:34:17 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <00ac01c2746e$dc1e40f0$4c0ad63f@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I hear "can I help who's next" fairly frequently "down south" here in Oregon, along with "the next (person) in line." "Who's ever next" sounds odd to me. Peter Mc --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:18 AM -0700 Anne Gilbert wrote: > Bemjamin: > > > >> The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. >> > "Who's ever next" sounds more or less normal to me, especially after > having lived in Texas for a while. "Who's next" sounds kinda strange. I > don't know about you, but I've never heard "who's next" out here. It's > usually(in grocery stores, etc), "Can I help the next person in line", or > "I can help you at ___" > Anne G > Live from Seattle, Washington > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 20:49:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:49:22 -0400 Subject: Greetings from Malta; The "Bapopik" Virus Isn't From Me Message-ID: THE "BAPOPIK" VIRUS ISN'T FROM ME The "Bapopik" virus isn't from me. I apologize to anyone who opened thinking that it was from me. I have absolutely nothing to do with it. I knew ten years ago that ADS-ers can be unkind to me, but this is borderline crime. "Bapopik" (Barry A. Popik) is my name. --------------------------------------------------------------- GREETINGS FROM MALTA Greetings from Malta. I can't say that I'll move here. It's my first day, and it's just a thought. The weather here is nicely warm. MALTA SLANG--I didn't find any English slang books yet. MALTESE--It's still spoken! Most everything, of course, is written in English, though. VINTAGE BUSES--"KEEP CLEAR VINTAGE BUSES TERMINUS." The buses are a sight. They're not just for tourists; people use the old things. MALTESE FOOD: A quick check of the online OED shows that almost NONE of these terms can be found in the OED. Malta, OED, Malta! It used to be governed by--oh, you know! Check out: http://web.idirect.com/~malta/recipes.htm http://www.maltagozo.htm/food.html http://www.hotelsmalta.com/caterers_buffet.htm PASTIZZI and PASTIZZERIA--Found everywhere. Gotta be in OED! ARANCINI (rice balls)--Found everywhere. One place has Bolognese, Siciliana, Chicken & Ham. QASSATA or QASSATAT--Found everywhere. One place has Cheese/Peas/Spinach. BRAGIOLI or BRAGGIOLI (Beef Olives)--Found everywhere. FRESH GBEJNIET SALAD--Gbejniet is everywhere. Gotta be in OED. KNICKERBOCKER GLORY or KNICKER BOCKER GLORY--Found at least three places. Three flavours of ice cream (chocolate, vanilla, pistachio), cream, and fruit salad. MALTESE SANDWICH (FTIRA)--Ftira is everywhere. One place describes the sandwich as "A traditional ftira brushed with oil with tuna, capers, olives, beans, tomatoes, onions, and gbejniet. MALTESE PIZZA--Found at just one place. Tomatoes, Sausage, Gozzo Cheese, Oregano, Olives. CLOSED PIZZA--A Calzone. The name "closed pizza" was seen in at least three places. RABBIT STEW OR FRIED IN GARLIC (MALTESE DISH)--Seen many place, but I ain't eatin' it. MALTESE COFFEE--WIth Anisette. Seen just one place. MEDITERRANEAN COFFEE--Metaxa and Galliano, seen one place. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 15 19:47:07 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:47:07 -0400 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Oct 2002, at 13:12, Peter Richardson wrote: > This morning on NPR Bob Edwards said "long-lived" with a diphthong [ai] in > the second element rather than what one usually hears as [I] (woops: > that's not an ell, but a small capital eye). In doing so, he won my > gratitude as an ally in a lonely (and perhaps futile or even utterly > misguided) battle for the understanding of what "-lived" means. I take it > to mean 'having a life,' i.e. 'having a long life,' which would justify > the [ai] pronunciation. When I was a tad I always pronounced the _-lived_ > as I did _lived_, but then one day I changed forever when I heard my > father say "short-lived" to rhyme with, um, "multi-wived" (for lack > of a better example). Did anyone else hear this pronunciation by Bob > Edwards and thus resolve to renew immediately that NPR membership during > this nagging, money-hustling week? > > Peter R. I didn't actually hear that part of the broadcast, but I do remember having the long-i pronunciation drummed into me by an English teacher in high school. Apparently "long-lived" isn't entered in the M-W usage book, though, which leads me to wonder how widespread the taboo over the short-i pronunciation is. I see your point that the "-lived" component does not represent a past participal form historically -- not that it necessarily matters to most English speakers, who probably see "lived" and pronounce it the way it would would be pronounced in the vast majority of other contexts. I'm not sure whether that would be classified as folk etymology or some other phenomenon (leveling?). Anyway, both prons are in the Collegiate, for what it's worth. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 15 19:51:39 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:51:39 -0400 Subject: -lived Message-ID: Oops! That should have been "past participle." Sorry -- it's been a long day. Joanne D. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 15 21:01:02 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:01:02 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <1375805.3243683146@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I'm afraid OU is the culprit--but this thing is spreading all through the PC system here. I've called the computer services people, and they tell me they've been hit too. Apparently a virus (klez, I believe) is finding address books and sending itself to all addressees (if that's the right jargon). When I asked what I could do about it, I was told "nothing"--except maybe to change to a different account for a while that doesn't go through the OU system. Can any of you give me better advice??? Meanwhile, I was told to turn off the preview pane, so that messages don't automatically pop up; and of course never ever open an attachment to weird messages like the one falsely appended to Popik notes! At 03:05 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: >....and Bergdahl has a Mac so, Bev??? > >--On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:23 PM -0400 Grant Barrett > wrote: > >>Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, à 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a >>écrit : >> >>>This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. >>> >>>It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a >>>Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header >>>which showed: >>> >>>Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu >>>[132.235.203.98]) >>> by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with >>>SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; >>> Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) >> >>We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David >>Bergdahl. > > > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 15 21:29:52 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:29:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Fried Twinkies Message-ID: The following is forwarded from Barry Popik. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (AP) -- In the South, where some joke that the four basic food groups are barbecued, baked, broiled or fried, state fairs are filled with booths that sell everything from corn on a stick to club-like turkey legs. For dessert, an odd new treat has emerged: fried Twinkies. Phil Dickson of Hot Springs has sold about 1,000 of the batter-dipped, deep-fried goodies topped with powdered sugar since the Arkansas State Fair opened Friday. "It's amazing to me," Dickson said Monday. "The response has just been tremendous." Each Twinkie, at 160 calories and five grams of fat a pop, is impaled on a stick and frozen until firm, then dipped in a batter similar to that used to fry fish. Deep frying adds more calories and fat, and the powdered-sugar coating apparently complements the Twinkie's altered state. "The inside creamy part stays cool, while the outside is warm," said Rhonda Yates, a postal worker spending her vacation helping Dickson with the Twinkie booth. Fairs in Arizona, California, Kansas and Washington also are expected to roll out fried Twinkies this year. 'We decided to buy a bunch of junk food and deep fry it' Suzanne Hackett, the general manager of an English restaurant in New York City called The ChipShop, said the fried Twinkie was born in her eatery out of boredom. "We had a very slow night in the restaurant so we decided to buy a bunch of junk food and deep fry it," Hackett said Monday. "And the Twinkies just tasted so good." Interstate Brands Corp., the firm that owns Twinkie-maker Hostess, doesn't object to the new creation -- it actually promotes the idea -- though it doesn't suggest a steady diet of the culinary concoction. (...) ----- End forwarded message ----- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 15 22:23:09 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:23:09 -0700 Subject: signifying gender Message-ID: Margaret Talbot, "Men Behaving Badly", in the 10/13/02 New York Times Magazine, examines men harassing men and the search for legal remedies to it. On p. 54 she considers who gets picked on: Often the men who are targeted and later bring claims of harassment are the weakest of the herd--younger, smaller or more effeminate than the men they work with. But this is not always the case. Sometimes a big guy who's a seasoned worker is picked on anyway... A case in point is pipe welder Joseph Carlton. Carlton was not some weedy college boy. "Joe's a big, good-looking country guy, maybe 6-foot-5 and 250 pounds," says his lawyer... "The secretaries in my office called him the Marlboro Man." But his physical presence is not enough to make the point. Talbot goes on to mention Carlton's girlfriend and previous work at construction sites and shipyards. Even that is not enough. There is still the evidence of language: "I like to weld," Carlton testified. "That's what I've always done. And I like to do a good job. But I ain't never had nobody grab me." None of that prissy standard variety for Carlton. No, he speaks (and is represented here as speaking) nonstandard English, which in this context signifies not ignorance, lack of education, etc., but instead toughness, authentic masculinity. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 22:32:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:32:09 -0700 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <3DAC398B.6039.1FA26B1E@localhost> Message-ID: Aw shucks--I kinda liked "parTIcipal" and was already working on some meanings for it. PMc --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:51 PM -0400 "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > Oops! That should have been "past participle." Sorry -- it's been a > long day. > > Joanne D. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Oct 15 23:41:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:41:34 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu Message-ID: One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 16 00:04:25 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:04:25 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <001d01c274a4$65df8080$81b99b3f@db> Message-ID: David Bergdahl said: >One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru >suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? Actually, one of the signatures of Bugbear is that it fakes email addresses by taking a random username from the address book and combining it with a random valid domain. -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 00:00:24 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:00:24 -0700 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <001d01c274a4$65df8080$81b99b3f@db> Message-ID: > One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru > suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? ".ru" is Russia. ".ro" is Romania. Does anyone spell "Rumania" with a U these days? I thought the NY Times was the last hold out, and they switched to the O spelling some (ten?) years ago From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 00:35:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:35:36 -0700 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <001101c27339$c826c7b0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: D'oh! Should have looked in DARE. They have an extensive entry for "dido." Besides the info that's in the OED, it includes a 1945 cite from Colcord's _Sea Language_ that reads, "said to come from the H.M.S. Dido, a very fast ship, whose commander used to sail her in circles around other vessels of his squadron to show off her fleetness." This "HMS Dido" (there have been several ships of that name), was launched in 1896. This can't be the origin of the generic "cut a dido," meaning to pull a prank, since that's attested to in 1807. Rather, the particular naval sense seems to be a play on words, using the coincidence of the ship's name with an existing phrase. I have no doubt that Heinlein, with his naval background, got his phrase from this. And while trying to identify the HMS Dido in question, I came across a good site on Royal Navy slang and jargon: http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/348.html DARE also lists a sense of "dido" meaning something fancy or frivolous from 1909. From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 00:37:34 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:37:34 EDT Subject: -lived Message-ID: If you want historical support here's W.S. Gilbert, in the Pirates of Penzance with this rhyme: To gain a brief advantage you've contrived But your proud triumph will not be long-lived. On a related note, for my Shakespeare pronunciation guide (forgive me for plugging it but it's just out this month in paperback, from Routledge: Pronouncing Shakespeare's Words: A Guide from A to Zounds) my survey of scholars for the word "livelong" (in Julius Caesar and elsewhere) showed in the US 15 to 2 in favor of the short vowel as opposed to the diphthong, with a slightly higher percentage for the diphthong in the UK. Dale Coye NJ From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 02:05:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:05:23 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd Intl, OED New Edn., or AHD4. Here is a passage from Lindsey Davis's new Falco novel, _A Body in the Bathhouse_, (c) 2001, Mysterious Press, pp. 6-7. The protagonist and narrator, a P.I. (private informer) in Rome ca. 75 C.E., is telling the reader about his new daughter: Born skinny and silent, she had [p.7] looked halfway to Hades. The minute I named her, she rallied. From then on, she was as tough as a totter's ferret. -- Mark A. Mandel From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Oct 16 02:09:36 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:09:36 -0700 Subject: -lived Message-ID: Peter and Joanne: > I didn't actually hear that part of the broadcast, but I do remember > having the long-i pronunciation drummed into me by an English > teacher in high school. Apparently "long-lived" isn't entered in the > M-W usage book, though, which leads me to wonder how > widespread the taboo over the short-i pronunciation is. I see your > point that the "-lived" component does not represent a past > participal form historically -- not that it necessarily matters to most > English speakers, who probably see "lived" and pronounce it the > way it would would be pronounced in the vast majority of other > contexts. I'm not sure whether that would be classified as folk > etymology or some other phenomenon (leveling?). > > Anyway, both prons are in the Collegiate, for what it's worth. Maybe my age is showing, or something, but I've always said "long-lived" with a long I. The other pronunciation, I'm sure I've heard, but I'm not sure if it's "the" one or not. Or maybe it varies regionally? Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 16 02:23:33 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:23:33 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: - Mark A. Mandel writes: >What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd >Intl, OED New Edn....... The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 02:26:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:26:26 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: #The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? -- Mark M. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 16 02:43:15 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:43:15 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > >Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > >-- Mark M. Dunt Esk. A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 03:04:02 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:04:02 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > >... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? Tut-tut, OED. Tut-tut, M-W. "Webster's 2nd" (ca. 1934, I think): "one who reclaims odds and ends from refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." Updated in "Webster's 3rd" to, uh, [nothing]. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 04:10:01 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:10:01 -0700 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > #The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: "A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 05:23:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:23:33 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: >>Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? >It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: >"A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth >picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone >collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. Oops. The whole entry looked like a flyspeck in my poor-man's edition. Good for the OED; I retract my tut-tut with an apology. Maybe I missed it in Webster's 3rd too? No wonder I can't afford the on-line OED; my eyes are getting weak and I can no longer tell which tots are worth picking up. -- Doug Wilson From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 16 05:37:32 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:37:32 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: Mark Mandel asks, >> What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd >> Intl, OED New Edn., or AHD4. It is, however, in M-W *Second* Int'l. Two definitions: (1) "One who tots or adds up, as an account." (2) "One who reclaims odds and ends from refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." I expect it's the latter who's referred to in your quote from the Lindsey Davis novel, "she was as tough as a totter's ferret." When and where street scavengers were accompanied by ferrets, I don't know. All I could find were references to their being used by *rural* hunters to help flush out rabbits. But perhaps (though I find no source that says so) "ferret" has been used as a slang term to mean an urchin hired to assist such an urban "hunter"? --Dodi Schultz From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 06:28:49 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 02:28:49 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <002a01c274ab$f2ed41e0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: >Should have looked in DARE. They have an extensive entry for "dido." Besides >the info that's in the OED, it includes a 1945 cite from Colcord's _Sea >Language_ that reads, "said to come from the H.M.S. Dido, a very fast ship, >whose commander used to sail her in circles around other vessels of his >squadron to show off her fleetness." > >This "HMS Dido" (there have been several ships of that name), was launched >in 1896. This can't be the origin of the generic "cut a dido," meaning to >pull a prank, since that's attested to in 1807. Rather, the particular naval >sense seems to be a play on words, using the coincidence of the ship's name >with an existing phrase. I have no doubt that Heinlein, with his naval >background, got his phrase from this. When I was young[er], I routinely heard "dido" used for "frippery"/"gewgaw" or so: it might refer to flounces or decorations on clothing or to gingerbread in architecture: I guess I would have taken it to be a nonsense word (reminiscent of "la-dee-da" maybe) for some bauble whose name one doesn't have handy. I am also familiar with "cutting didoes" in a sense which I understand to mean "making fancy maneuvers"; but I can't remember where I first saw this; maybe in Heinlein? I would have pictured a carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). The "Century Dictionary" (1889) gives a proposed etymology for "dido" (I don't know whether it's anything more than conjecture): <<[ME. _dido_; in allusion to the familiar tale of the trick played by _Dido_, the legendary queen of Carthage, in bargaining for as much land as could be covered by a hide, and cutting the hide into a long thin strip so as to inclose a large tract: ....]>> The first definition given here ("obsolete") is "an old story." -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 16 10:58:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:58:41 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021015225702.04704c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > > > >... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > > Tut-tut, OED. It is in the OED, s.v. tot, n.5. (that's superscript 5). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 16 13:29:26 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:29:26 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: There is an economical alternative to a private subscription to the on-line OED: The Quality Paperback Book Club includes on-line OED access with membership. For more information, see www.qpb.com. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: totter, n. No wonder I can't afford the on-line OED; my eyes are getting weak and I can no longer tell which tots are worth picking up. -- Doug Wilson From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 16:04:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:04:30 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <000b01c274c9$e67a79f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: # #"A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth #picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone #collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. Glurp! How'd I miss that? -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 16 16:45:36 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:45:36 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: Something I was reading in an 1830s newspaper regarding a society for "ameliorating the condition of the Jews" -- ie, converting them -- aroused a vague and perhaps false memory that the Irish had an expression along the lines of "a soup-kitchen Protestant" to refer to those who (seemingly) converted for the sake of being allowed to eat at the soup-kitchen. Does anyone know it? Speaking of vague and perhaps false memories. Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread line", and someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave away day-old bread at midnight to the poor. This set off something that had and still has me in a state of high annoyance, for I distinctly remember a woodcut from Harper's Weekly or Frank Leslie's showing this breadline, but I can't remember where I saw it. I have checked the most likely book thoroughly, and several others. Danged frustrating. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 17:14:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:14:49 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021016020734.046c14a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #doesn't have handy. I am also familiar with "cutting didoes" in a sense #which I understand to mean "making fancy maneuvers"; but I can't remember #where I first saw this; maybe in Heinlein? I would have pictured a #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". -- Mark A. Mandel From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Oct 16 17:29:21 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:29:21 +0100 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: The term I know is 'souper', meaning 'a convert from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism'; such conversions, however nominal, were often achieved by the appeal of Protestant missionaries in Ireland handing out free soup, originally at the time of the great famine of 1845-7. Jonathon Green From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 20:04:16 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:04:16 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021015225702.04704c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I'm curious about bones: might they be rechewed, rather than sold? And rags could be reworn or resewn. I'm reminded of Yeats' "rag and bone shop of the heart"--apropos of nothing. But more importantly, I have now run FixKlez.com on this computer and will do so on the infamous Compaq at home tonight. It's from Symantec, and should kill Bugbear too, I hope? I'll also try suggestions from Alice and Jim--many thanks! At 11:04 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." >> > >>... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > >Tut-tut, OED. > >Tut-tut, M-W. > >"Webster's 2nd" (ca. 1934, I think): "one who reclaims odds and ends from >refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." Updated in "Webster's >3rd" to, uh, [nothing]. > >-- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 20:45:06 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:45:06 EDT Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/02 12:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread line", and > someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave away > day-old bread at midnight to the poor. That was me who cited the story. I believe that rather than submitting it as a fact, I described it as a legend and asked if anyone knew whether it was true or was a folk etymology. One detail---the bakery named Fleischmann is supposed to have become the company why today sell's Flesichmann's Yeast. It is a story I heard circa 1980 from someone long forgotten, and I was curious as to whether it were true. I remember the date because the story was told me some time before a woman I knew in the early 1980's married a man named Fleischman. I was able to find exactly one reference on the Internet: URL http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Books-F!ArticleDetail-6717 0,00.html which in turn quotes from Ross Wetzsteon _Republic of Dreams: Greenwich Village: The American Bohemia, 1910-1960_ New York: Simon & Schuster, 2002, ISBN: 0-684-86995-0 "in the 1880s, Fleischmann's Model Viennese Bakery on the corner of 11th Street and Broadway donated its unsold products to the poor at the end of every day, originating the phrase "bread line." " Considering that the quotation contains an improbably long list of things supposedly invented or orginated in Greenwich Village, I don't have good vibes as to the accuracy of this particular quote. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I've never heard of a "soup-kitchen Protestant" but considering the expression "rice Christian" from the other end of Eurasia I'm not inclined to doubt it. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 21:13:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:13:33 EDT Subject: Cutting Didoes Message-ID: I can't resist citing some Heinleiniana: connected universes: The "Future History" contains all Heinlein works until about 1945 not published under pseudonyms, plus "Time Enough For Love", "To Sail Beyond The Sunset", and maybe "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls" (which I haven't read.) It does not contain "The Number of the Beast" "Number of the Beast" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" share the character of Jubal Harshaw "Gulf" and "Friday" share a universe, or at least the character of Kettle-Belly "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" share a universe, or at least the character of Hazel "Between Planets" and "Star Man Jones" share a universe, or at least the Horst-Milne-Conrad space drive ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At some point in the 1970's a magazine (then perhaps still a fanzine) named "Locus" reported that Heinlein had had surgery to correct a blood circulation problem in his brain, and went on to state "Gone were all traces of what many had thought to be failing mental powers". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I read "Starship Troopers" in 1964, when I was finishing a project to read all of Heinlein's published work. I have not reread it since. However, for all its flaws, it had some vivid writing, and I can recall a fair amount of it to this day. Consider: - anyone reading the book purely for the action would be turned off by the lengthy and tedious philosophizing. - the philosophy was "controversial" when written (circa 1960) and in these post-Vietnam days has to be considered "politically incorrect" - the philosophy is so highly idiosyncratic that even in 1960 it must have found few if any believers among people smart enough to analyze philosophy (as opposed to those who simply regurgitate it) - as Alexei Panshin pointed out (in his book "Heinlein in Dimension") Heinlein a couple of years later wrote a book ("Glory Road") which succeeds in demolishing the philosophizing In other words, Heinlein with "Starship Troopers" created a tour-de-force---a book which annoyed everybody including himself! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A suggestion to get some use out of the book: take those people who are unable to distinguish between "militarist" and "Fascist" and punish them by forcing them to read the book. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Somewhere in "Starship Troopers" (I think the opening scene) Heinlein describes the soldiers as using an encrypted radio in which "the frequency wobbled under the control of an atomic clock" so that communications could not be intercepted. Such a technology was invented---and patented---during World War II, although it did not come into use until the 1980's. The technology is called "frequency hopping" (it is the most common form of "spread spectrum"). What very famous person was the inventor? - Jim Landau From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 21:35:40 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:35:40 -0400 Subject: "almost" Message-ID: Our building custodian was just in my office, and as we were talking about colds going around, she said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it"--or something very close to that (I was interrupted as soon as she left, so my STM is already suffering). Have others heard this? It's clearly similar to positive "anymore," though negative here--and in fact she may have used it in a positive construction; I can't recall for sure. But it was clearly sentence-initial. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 21:49:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:49:30 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes (gone OT) In-Reply-To: <6d.5b427.2adf307d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I can't resist citing some Heinleiniana: # #connected universes: # #The "Future History" contains all Heinlein works until about 1945 not #published under pseudonyms, plus "Time Enough For Love", "To Sail Beyond The #Sunset", and maybe "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls" (which I haven't read.) # It does not contain "The Number of the Beast" # #"Number of the Beast" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" share the character of #Jubal Harshaw The premise of NotB and its sequels, To Sail and The Cat, is that the Burroughs device allows access to multiple possible universes, including the ones of literature. The characters visit and/or meet characters from Oz, Alice's Wonderland, Heinlein's own _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ and the Future History (Lazarus Long being a principal character in NotB & seqq.), and many others. The "Future History" universe may not contain NotB & seqq, but the reverse is certainly true. -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 16 21:57:02 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:57:02 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: I will not rest until I remember where I saw the illustration of the breadline. But I at lesast can confirm from the NYTimes Historical Database that there was one. The will of Louis Fleischmann, the baker, who left 1,000,000+, provided that "the midnight 'bread line' for the benefit of the poor will be continued by his executors. (NYTimes, October 4, 1904, p. 9) An earlier article, Headlined "Free Bread with Gospel" states of the minister involved: On his was to a restaurant he came upon a crowd of working men who were waiting in front of Fleischmann's cafe, in Broadway, for the distribution of bread that is made there to the needy. (NYTimes, September 16, 1896, p. 8) The minister had just left his church, which was on MacDougal street, so the cafe was south of 8th street. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" Date: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line > In a message dated 10/16/02 12:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > > > Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread > line", and > > someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave > away> day-old bread at midnight to the poor. > > That was me who cited the story. I believe that rather than > submitting it as > a fact, I described it as a legend and asked if anyone knew > whether it was > true or was a folk etymology. > > One detail---the bakery named Fleischmann is supposed to have > become the > company why today sell's Flesichmann's Yeast. > > It is a story I heard circa 1980 from someone long forgotten, and > I was > curious as to whether it were true. I remember the date because > the story > was told me some time before a woman I knew in the early 1980's > married a man > named Fleischman. > > I was able to find exactly one reference on the Internet: > URL > http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Books- > F!ArticleDetail-6717 > > 0,00.html > which in turn quotes from > Ross Wetzsteon _Republic of Dreams: Greenwich Village: The > American Bohemia, > 1910-1960_ New York: Simon & Schuster, 2002, ISBN: 0-684-86995-0 > > "in the 1880s, Fleischmann's Model Viennese Bakery on the corner > of 11th > Street and Broadway donated its unsold products to the poor at the > end of > every day, originating the phrase "bread line." " > > Considering that the quotation contains an improbably long list of > thingssupposedly invented or orginated in Greenwich Village, I > don't have good > vibes as to the accuracy of this particular quote. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I've never heard of a "soup-kitchen Protestant" but considering the > expression "rice Christian" from the other end of Eurasia I'm not > inclinedto doubt it. > > - Jim Landau > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 21:53:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:53:36 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: OATMEAL FOR BRAINS OATMEAL for brains? From this week's NEW YORK PRESS (www.nypress.com): MUGGER Russ Smith Oatmeal for Brains (...) Slipping on a Banana Reacting to Harry Belafonte’s crude remarks about Colin Powell last week–the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who could’ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle Tom–The Wall Street Journal’s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. Appearing on CNBC’s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nation’s finest journalists, said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for brains." (Google has about 70 "oatmeal" hits and 17,500 "shit" hits--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHORRILLANA Maybe not an AMerican food, but in GOURMET, OCtober 2002, pg. 49, col. 2: Twenty-five years ago, in the Chilean port of Valparaiso, in the kitchen of _J. Cruz M._, _chorrillana_ was born. The idea was to please a college crowd that was short on funds but long on appetities. The result was a hearty scramble of eggs, onions, and chopped beef, piled on a nest of french fries--and definitely meant to be shared. Over the years _chorrillana_ imitations sprang up throughout the city, but the original, served in platters for two ($5) or three ($7), is still the best. _Condell_ 1466 (032-21-12-25). From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Oct 16 21:58:27 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:58:27 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line In-Reply-To: <82.22bc0833.2adf29d2@aol.com> Message-ID: This is not the first for "bread line" AND Fleischmann in the New York Times- and strangely the first hit is from February 2, 1901 and already - seemingly - has killed Mr. Fleischmann off, probably because he had a "paralytic stroke" in 1899ish - but he was still kicking in September. He dies in 1904. The New York Times, Sept. 25, 1901 "Louis Fleischmann, Philanthropist, Low." "Baker and Friend of Hungry May be Beyond Recovery." ESTABLISHED "BREAD LINE" ... ... "Mr. Fleischmann emigrated to this country in 1874. His brothers has been successful in the business of making compressed yeast, and in connection with this the idea of establishing a bakery, although he knew nothing of baking, came to him. He made his first venture in this direction at the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia where he established the "Vienna Model Bakery, " and captured high awards at the Fair for the excellence of his bread and rolls. Then he moved the business to New York, although he still maintains bakeries in Philadelphia and many others of the large cities. .... the bakery now covers a large area at East End Avenue and Eighty-first street. "The bread line is perhaps the most picturesque and one of the best-known charities in the world. The idea of the establishment came to Mr. Fleischmann when he noticed a crowd of hungry tramps standing over the grating at the bakery at Tenth Street and Broadway, scenting the hot loaves that were being turned out in the basement. Mr. Fleischmann offered to feed one of the men, and soon a line formed. It was then that he determined to give bread to every hungry man who would come for it. This was more than ten years ago, and a long time went until Mr. Fleischmann's family knew anything of the unique charity. The bread line grew until at night as many as 500 loaves were handed out to the hungry men." .... The piece has lots of cool historical info but too much to type right now - I can email the article to anyone who wants it at a private email. ADS-list will not accept the attachment. The Obit, on October 2, 1904 seems to have even more info and says, "little known facts about it's origin." And offers info on the introduction of coffee in winter, and jam on rolls if a whole loaf of bread wasn't available. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 22:02:41 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:02:41 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes (gone OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:49 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >The premise of NotB and its sequels, To Sail and The Cat, is that the >Burroughs device allows access to multiple possible universes, including >the ones of literature. The characters visit and/or meet characters from >Oz, Alice's Wonderland, Heinlein's own _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and >_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ and the Future History (Lazarus Long >being a principal character in NotB & seqq.), and many others. The >"Future History" universe may not contain NotB & seqq, but the reverse >is certainly true. > >-- Mark A. Mandel Intertextuality! From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 22:15:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:15:36 -0700 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <6d.5b427.2adf307d@aol.com> Message-ID: > Somewhere in "Starship Troopers" (I think the opening scene) Heinlein > describes the soldiers as using an encrypted radio in which > "the frequency wobbled under the control of an atomic clock" so that > communications could not be intercepted. > > Such a technology was invented---and patented---during World > War II, although it did not come into use until the 1980's. The > technology is called "frequency hopping" (it is the most common > form of "spread spectrum"). What very famous person was the inventor? > > - Jim Landau That's an easy (if hard to believe) one. The answer is Hedy Lamarr. (The patent is in her real name, which I forget.) Everytime you use your cell phone, you have Hedy to thank. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 22:38:08 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:38:08 EDT Subject: Greetings from Malta Message-ID: In a message dated 10/15/2002 4:52:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > MALTESE FOOD: > > KNICKERBOCKER GLORY or KNICKER BOCKER GLORY--Found at least three places. > Three flavours of ice cream (chocolate, vanilla, pistachio), cream, and fruit > salad. Joanne "J. K." Rowling _Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [sic] Stone_ Chapter Two, page 26 of the Scholastic Press hardback edition (ISBN 0-590-3530-3 "They ate in the zoo restaurant, and when Dudley ahd a tantrum because his knickerbocker glory didn't have enough ice cream on top, Uncle Vernon bought him another one and Harry was allowed to finish the first." - James A. Landau From pds at VISI.COM Wed Oct 16 22:45:04 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:45:04 -0500 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:37 PM 10/15/2002 EDT, Dale Coye wrote: >If you want historical support here's W.S. Gilbert, in the Pirates of >Penzance with this rhyme: > >To gain a brief advantage you've contrived >But your proud triumph will not be long-lived. Scant support from a writer who in Patience rhymes "sympathy" and "lily" with "die". Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 22:47:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:47:22 -0400 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <004401c274b9$1a21a6e0$9f6ff4d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: #Maybe my age is showing, or something, but I've always said "long-lived" #with a long I. Ipso ditto ;-). I've always understood it as = 'having a long life'. BTW... How many dictionaries persist in listing denominal putative verbs whose only claim to existence is an adjective "N + ed" meaning approx. 'having or provided with N'? -- Mark A. Mandel From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 17 00:02:53 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:02:53 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: >> Reacting to Harry Belafonteâ€_s crude remarks about Colin Powell last >> weekâ€"the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who >> couldâ€_ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle >> Tomâ€"The Wall Street Journalâ€_s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. >> Appearing on CNBCâ€_s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last >> Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nationâ€_s finest journalists, >> said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for brains." I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. Your brief quote from Gourmet, same message, looked fine. --Dodi Schultz From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 17 02:04:22 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:04:22 -0600 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> I would have pictured a >> #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot >> #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this >> #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). > I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". Actually, a "dado", at least in the context of carpentry, refers to a straight wide groove cut into the wood. Nothing fancy about it. -- Scott Swanson From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 17 02:23:35 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:23:35 -0600 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana (technical) In-Reply-To: <200210162003_MC3-1-15E6-BD97@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Barry's msg shows up encoded in the "utf-8" character set. Which translates on my machine approximately as on Dodi's (her mailer used ISO-8859-1 encoding, which is a reasonable standard for this list) Barry, travelling in the wilds of Malta, is no doubt at the mercy of whatever default is set on the system from which he sends. Do any of YOU know into which character set YOUR emails are encoded by default?? On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: > > >> Reacting to Harry Belafonteâ€_s crude remarks about Colin Powell last > >> weekâ€"the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who > >> couldâ€_ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle > >> Tomâ€"The Wall Street Journalâ€_s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. > >> Appearing on CNBCâ€_s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last > >> Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nationâ€_s finest journalists, > >> said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for > brains." > > I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination > of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. > > Your brief quote from Gourmet, same message, looked fine. > -- Scott Swanson From adl.list at RPWALTERS.COM Thu Oct 17 05:59:01 2002 From: adl.list at RPWALTERS.COM (Edgar Degas) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:59:01 -0700 Subject: Almost In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021016173025.00b8ba08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Is the custodian from Milwaukee? This has a Wisconsinite flavor. >From Beverly Flanigan on 16 Oct 2002: > She said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it" From conversa at IAC.NET Thu Oct 17 12:22:07 2002 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:22:07 -0400 Subject: Sevis system Message-ID: Hello everyone, We signed up for the INS/SEVIS system to issue I-20's on the Sevis system. We were contacted by INS yesterday and told they will stop by to audit our school. Has anyone had this audit? What can I expect? Gerry Thiemann Conversa Language Center Cincinnati, Ohio 513-651-5679 From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Oct 17 12:41:25 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:41:25 +0200 Subject: Veal parmigiano Message-ID: This maybe comes a bit late, but as it seems that to many Americans (as well as many Europeans), the word "parmigiano" is automatically associated with Parma cheese, I may perhaps expound a little: "Parmigiano" does not nessecarily imply that the dish contains Parma cheese, but can very well have the meaning "from Parma" or "as the parmigiani do it" - like e.g. "Veal milanese" "Vitello Parmigiana Veal Scaloppini Breaded and Baked with Mozzarella and Fresh Tomato Sauce." as one of the Net's many recipe pages has it. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 12:54:49 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:54:49 -0400 Subject: valley talk Message-ID: Today's NY Times has a column with the paragraph "The valley's 1.3 million residents, half of them Hispanic, are a third of L.A.'s population, covering more than half the sprawling city's territory. They have their anthem (Gene Autry's "I'm gonna settle down and never more roam, and make the San Fernando Valley my home"). For a generation, "valley girls" have had their own dialect, leading the nation's teenagers into punctuating their every phrase with the interjection of hesitation ? like ? and permeating America's airwaves with the exclamation Omigod!" Is there any support for the connection between "valley talk" and Spanish this paragraph hints at? _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 17 13:06:40 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:06:40 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021016173015.00a47a10@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: CORRECTION: That should read Sept 25, 1904, and sorry for the typos I was trying to get it typed and sent before 6:00pm. So the stroke was in 1902ish. My Bad. Katy At 05:58 PM 10/16/02 -0400, you wrote: >This is not the first for "bread line" AND Fleischmann in the New York >Times- and strangely the first hit is from February 2, 1901 and already - >seemingly - has killed Mr. Fleischmann off, probably because he had a >"paralytic stroke" in 1899ish - but he was still kicking in September. He >dies in 1904. > >The New York Times, Sept. 25, 1901 "Louis Fleischmann, Philanthropist, >Low." "Baker and Friend of Hungry May be Beyond Recovery." ESTABLISHED >"BREAD LINE" ... > >... "Mr. Fleischmann emigrated to this country in 1874. His brothers has >been successful in the business of making compressed yeast, and in >connection with this the idea of establishing a bakery, although he knew >nothing of baking, came to him. He made his first venture in this direction >at the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia where he established the >"Vienna Model Bakery, " and captured high awards at the Fair for the >excellence of his bread and rolls. Then he moved the business to New York, >although he still maintains bakeries in Philadelphia and many others of the >large cities. .... the bakery now covers a large area at East End Avenue >and Eighty-first street. > "The bread line is perhaps the most picturesque and one of the > best-known >charities in the world. The idea of the establishment came to Mr. >Fleischmann when he noticed a crowd of hungry tramps standing over the >grating at the bakery at Tenth Street and Broadway, scenting the hot >loaves that were being turned out in the basement. Mr. Fleischmann offered >to feed one of the men, and soon a line formed. It was then that he >determined to give bread to every hungry man who would come for it. This >was more than ten years ago, and a long time went until Mr. Fleischmann's >family knew anything of the unique charity. >The bread line grew until at night as many as 500 loaves were handed out to >the hungry men." .... > > >The piece has lots of cool historical info but too much to type right now - >I can email the article to anyone who wants it at a private email. ADS-list >will not accept the attachment. > >The Obit, on October 2, 1904 seems to have even more info and says, "little >known facts about it's origin." And offers info on the introduction of >coffee in winter, and jam on rolls if a whole loaf of bread wasn't available. > >Katy > > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 15:03:14 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:03:14 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210162003_MC3-1-15E6-BD97@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: [...] #I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination #of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. Same here. My guess: copied and pasted in from a word processing document or possibly a web page. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 15:06:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:06:32 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Scott Swanson wrote: #On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #>> I would have pictured a #>> #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot #>> #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this #>> #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). # #> I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". # #Actually, a "dado", at least in the context of carpentry, refers to a #straight wide groove cut into the wood. Nothing fancy about it. Ah, but you see, I never knew what "dado" actually meant. I saw it in reference to decorative woodwork and assumed it was decorative. Then the situation with "cutting didoes" was similar enough to create a false association. And similarly, I guess, for the person I was responding to. -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 16:37:21 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:37:21 -0400 Subject: Sevis system In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021017082021.04804da0@mail.iac.net> Message-ID: You might send this message to Charlie Mickelson, head of our Ohio Program of Intensive English (mickelso at ohiou.edu). He has to deal with I-20s all the time. Or call him at 740-593-4575. At 08:22 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >We signed up for the INS/SEVIS system to issue I-20's on the Sevis >system. We were contacted by INS yesterday and told they will stop by to >audit our school. Has anyone had this audit? What can I expect? > >Gerry Thiemann >Conversa Language Center >Cincinnati, Ohio >513-651-5679 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 16:51:01 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:51:01 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <56344.3243833689@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Not likely, though you're right--the article seems to imply a connection. The Hispanic English of the area (and northern California too) has been studied by Carmen Fought and Norma Mendoza-Denton (in separate publications). Carmen notes some crossover influence from Valley Talk, but Norma plays it down. HispEng has its own distinctive features, but of course they're not as widely known and are often just thought of, by the public, as "learner English" even after several generations of U.S. residence and native speaker acquisition of English. Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. At 08:54 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Today's NY Times has a column with the paragraph "The valley's 1.3 million >residents, half of them Hispanic, are a third of L.A.'s population, >covering more than half the sprawling city's territory. They have their >anthem (Gene Autry's "I'm gonna settle down and never more roam, and make >the San Fernando Valley my home"). For a generation, "valley girls" have >had their own dialect, leading the nation's teenagers into punctuating >their every phrase with the interjection of hesitation ? like ? and >permeating America's airwaves with the exclamation Omigod!" > >Is there any support for the connection between "valley talk" and Spanish >this paragraph hints at? > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 17 16:51:54 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:51:54 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Mark Mandel, who saw the same oddities I did in Barry Popik's message quoting NYPress's Russ Smith, writes: >> My guess: copied and pasted in from a word processing document or >> possibly a web page. Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download straight plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 17 17:16:15 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:16:15 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021017124107.032c0b28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. > That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 18:03:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:03:20 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:16 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >>generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >>my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. >That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. > >larry Thanks! I believe Birch Moonwomon has also written on it. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 17 20:11:25 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a "bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean "poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that "the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from a biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from 1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent his life with "people close to the bread line." The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. It seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members had estates in the same village in the Cat! skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 17 21:10:14 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:10:14 -0700 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: George Thompson >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Bread Line >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 > >Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, >the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and >Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to >whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the >line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 >years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a >"bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat >the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. > >Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as >applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at >other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean >"poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll >be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that >"the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from a >biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect >that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large >fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a >figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from >1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent his >life with "people close to the bread line." > >The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were >a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, >who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of >yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail >baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. >He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, >brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the >Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He >died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis >Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and >died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and >several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. It >seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members >had estates in the same village in the Cat! >skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in >acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an >article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a >depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 22:19:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:19:52 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210171252_MC3-1-1636-4800@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download straight #plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this #happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) The difficulty with that is that one's own interface may be the one that the gibberish was designed for. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 18 00:58:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:58:10 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021017140242.0332eb28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:03 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >At 01:16 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>> >>>Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >>>generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >>>my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. >>That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. >> >>larry > >Thanks! I believe Birch Moonwomon has also written on it. And in today's political column (NYT A33), Safire talks about how if San Fernando Valley does in fact secede from L.A. they're already set with their own linguistic identity. (Fer sher. Grody to the max. Like, omigod.) Of course, the claim that 'for a generation, "valley girls" have had their own dialect' may be a bit of an exaggeration... L From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 01:30:12 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:30:12 -0700 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Mark A Mandel >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:19:52 -0400 > >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >#Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download >straight >#plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this >#happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) > >The difficulty with that is that one's own interface may be the one that >the gibberish was designed for. > >-- Mark A. Mandel _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 18 05:01:33 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:01:33 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Anybody know why this list is getting "hotphotos" spam? From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Oct 18 08:46:16 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:46:16 +0100 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210180102_MC3-1-1623-50CF@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Dodi Schultz wrote in the wee small hours: > Anybody know why this list is getting "hotphotos" spam? Messages seem to be automatically triggered by despatch of messages through the list. Since the messages are getting back to the list, and the list allows only members to post, it should mean that the supposed sender of these messages, lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM, is subscribed. (That doesn't necessarily mean she is the real sender, of course. Messages are originating at IP address 24.207.214.42, which is one of those alloted to Charter Communications.) What is causing the messages to be spewed is less obvious - it doesn't seem to be a virus. Perhaps the Hotmail address ought to be served out for a while to allow enquiries to take place without further inconvenience to list members? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 18 13:19:18 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:19:18 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 In-Reply-To: <20021018125627.GB206@panix.com> Message-ID: The obit for Allen Walker Read starts out with his work on OK, but goes on to mention a number of his other achievements in scholarship. It has a few nice quotes from him, and speaks of his career pretty thoroughly. I encourage you all to read it, at (www.nytimes.com) click on "Obituaries" in the column to the left. We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, and the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. Frank Abate From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 12:56:27 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:56:27 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: >From Barry: ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- Allen Walker Read, age 96, has passed away. The story is in the obituaries in today's NEW YORK TIMES. (www.nytimes.com) The obituary notes that he was an "expert on O.K.," but this wrongly overshadows his many other achievements. It's a shame that no one from the ADS was interviewed. (There is a quote from H.L. Mencken.) People should know about the ADS volume of Read's work. Sorry for the bad news. (Please send to ADS-L--Barry Popik, who can't send AOL mail.) ----- End forwarded message ----- From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 15:32:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:32:10 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with _stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of _press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, _tell_ doesn't work here for me. I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. Any thoughts? Jesse Sheidlower From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 18 16:13:50 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:13:50 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, à 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a écrit : > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > and > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal relationship with him. Grant Barrett ADS Webmaster gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 18 16:16:32 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:16:32 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: jesse sheidlower reports the odd number agreement in "The stories the press tell are shaped..." and considers (a) the proximity of "stories", (b) notional plurality of "press", and (c) the -s ending of "press". i agree that the original example doesn't sound so bad. but things get *much* worse with singular "story": "The story the press tell is shaped..." since factors (b) and (c) aren't changed here, we're left with (a) - perhaps in combination with (d) an anticipation of the plural "are" immediately following "tell(s)" (and triggered by the earlier "stories"). it's possible to vary some of the factors independently: (a), (b), (c), no (d): The stories the press tell will be shaped... (a), (b), no (c), (d): The stories the internet tell are shaped... (a), no (b), (c), (d): The stories our wire service tell are shaped... the last two are unquestionably wretched for me, but the first might get past me, which suggests that the plurality of "stories" is the most important factor (though the others might help some). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From P2052 at AOL.COM Fri Oct 18 16:31:23 2002 From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:31:23 EDT Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: As with that of other collectiv(ish) nouns, the agreement would depend on the intent of the speaker/writer. For example, if the intent is the following, then, the plural verb, "are," is okay: "The stories the [members of the] press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." In this case, the members of the press are considered as acting separately or individually, not as a unit or unified group. If, however, the intent is that "the press" is functioning as a unit, then, "The stories the press tell[s] are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." is correct. While I've usually considered "the press" singular, in the example above, I'd be inclined to think plural, for such terms as "stories" and "conspiracy," sugggest a number of individual partipicants whose collective products or actions evoke a similar theme. P-A-T From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 18 16:38:50 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: I have known Allen Walker Read since the Sixties. I admired him for his scholarship, his gentlemanly ways, and his appreciation of my work shown by his presence (Fred Cassidy was another such appreciator) at any paper I read to the ADS, ANS, MLA, and other learned societies. I was hoping he would publish something more solid than occasional papers, but I'm sure John Algeo will be doing justice to his Dictionary of Briticisms. I am sorry to see Allen go. T. M. Paikeday, lexicographer www.paikeday.net . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 > Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, à 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a écrit : > > > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > > and > > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > > Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can > post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal > relationship with him. > > Grant Barrett > ADS Webmaster > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 18 16:53:25 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >plural sense rather than the 's' business. dInIs >I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >are shaped..." > >This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >Any thoughts? > >Jesse Sheidlower -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 17:00:56 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:00:56 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >plural sense rather than the 's' business. Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some explanation of why there's this discrepancy. Jesse Sheidlower From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 18 17:14:50 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:14:50 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower asks about subject-verb agreement: >> The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a >> 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This sentence >> was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it >> should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." >> >> This objection seems to be correct. It is. >> However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is >> _not_ jarring to me... Certainly one would never write, "The stories >> Smith tell are shaped..." ... I'm thinking that it might be the >> influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural >> ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press tell >> are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >> Any thoughts? I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a plural noun that is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and that *would* require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. (Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press release.") --DS From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 18 17:25:59 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <200210181315_MC3-1-1661-F7F3@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press >release.") Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, still newspapers? Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Oct 18 17:39:33 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018170056.GA14804@panix.com> Message-ID: I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the source. Was it on this list? At 01:00 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >explanation of why there's this discrepancy. > >Jesse Sheidlower From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Oct 18 17:44:42 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:44:42 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: > I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > doesn't seem obviously wrong. > The influence of the -s ending was exactly what ran through my head as I read through your post, though maybe it's the combination of the -s AND the notional plurality of the noun AND the grammatical plurality of the inverted direct object that do the trick; taken together, they throw my brain into enough confusion to let the solecism slip by unnoticed. I suppose there must be a limit to one's linguistic short- term memory just as there is to one's mathematical memory (as, for example, when you're quoted too many numbers to remember). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 18 18:04:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:04:11 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <200210181315_MC3-1-1661-F7F3@compuserve.com> Message-ID: > I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a > plural noun that > is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and > that *would* > require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days > to refer to > those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > (Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > release.") I would disagree with this last. "Press" has long been used to denote the profession of journalism, regardless of the medium (e.g., press corps, press secretary). The term "media," however, has a broader denotation, including entertainment and not just journalism (although that distinction is becoming increasingly difficult to make). When conservatives rail about the "liberal media," they are including Hollywood as well as news outlets. Aaron Sorkin and Dan Rather are cursed in one fell breath. As far as Jesse's original question goes, I think it's just the old collective noun dilemma. Which one sounds right is more a question of local idiom, with the general trend in American English going toward the singular form. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 18 18:43:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page 49 column 2: "The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate volumes, from 1884 to 1928." No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. - Jim Landau From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Oct 18 18:52:53 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:52:53 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <84.2cf0b7.2ae1b044@aol.com> Message-ID: At 02:43 PM 10/18/02 -0400, you wrote: > From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 18 18:56:16 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:56:16 -0400 Subject: FW: OED first edition Message-ID: The reason for the "125 separate volumes" was that the early stuff was done in fascicles, each amounting to several signatures at most, so like largish magazines. The fascicles were later assembled into true volumes and bound as books. The reviewer at Byte was apparently unaware of fascicles. Frank Abate At 02:43 PM 10/18/02 -0400, you wrote: > From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 18 18:59:17 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:59:17 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018133722.02db0118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: The most famous example of this British usage is "H.M. Government are..." On a trip through Heathrow Airport many years ago I was struck by an ad for a construction firm. The firm's name was Billy something--Barnham? Something like that. The ad said: "Billy Barnham built this terminal. Billy Barnham build everywhere." I've never run across a variety of AE where this would be acceptable. I don't know whether the British also say, "the press are..." or whether Jesse's quote came from a British or an American source. Peter Mc. --On Friday, October 18, 2002 1:39 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to > words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I > can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the > source. Was it on this list? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 18 19:06:50 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:06:50 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021018144956.00a482e0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate > >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > > > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > > > - Jim Landau > > Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the > V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. I assume what was meant was "125 facsicles." Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 18 20:03:55 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:03:55 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: > I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > _press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > _tell_ doesn't work here for me. Could the reason be that "press" can't take the plural? There aren't "presses" (in the sense of the profession of journalism, obviously there can be multiple machines or publishing houses). So there is ambiguity in whether or not the collective noun takes the singular or plural. There can, on the other hand, be "teams" or "juries." Since there can be multiple collectives in these cases, there is a more acute need for subject-verb agreement. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 20:06:32 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:06:32 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <84.2cf0b7.2ae1b044@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 02:43:16PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page > 49 column 2: > > "The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate > volumes, from 1884 to 1928." As others have pointed out, this should read "fascicles". There's a detailed and useful discussion of the printing history of the OED by Jenny McMorris, the OED Archivist, printed as Appendix I of Lynda Mugglestone's _Lexicography and the OED._ It's complicated, but the OED was issued in various types of small publications, including fascicles, parts, and volumes. The word "fascicle" is used in a broad way to refer to both fascicles proper and parts. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 18 20:09:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:09:33 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: >I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >_tell_ doesn't work here for me. RHUD under "press(1)": <<34. _(often used with a pl. v.)_ a group of news reporters, or of news reporters and news photographers: _The press are in the outer office, waiting for a statement._>> The plural seems surely OK to me (as well as to the RH editors, I guess) if "the press" is in this sense. As for "the team": I would (myself) tend to refer to a soccer/football team in the singular in most contexts, but apparently the plural is more common (but not universal) with team names, e.g., "Manchester United were formed in 1878", "Brazil are the most popular team". I was struck by the prevalence of such usage during the World Cup news coverage recently. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 20:24:37 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:24:37 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018133722.02db0118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 01:39:33PM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to > words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I > can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the > source. Was it on this list? It's a general feature of British English that various kinds of group nouns tend to take plural concord, e.g. "British Telecom are profitable this quarter", "Manchester United have won the FA cup" [the frequency of this sort of construction in World Cup coverage, mentioned by another posted, is surely due to the reporters' being British in the examples in question], "The government are divided about how to...", etc. But the putatively increased acceptability of the "press tell" example is not, I think, due to a British English influence. Jesse Sheidlower From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:28:24 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Lisa O'Brien >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Bread Line >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:10:14 -0700 > >Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your >message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. >I >think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more >pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of >it...I don't really know how to do that. >http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am >still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, >and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day >even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > >>From: George Thompson >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: Bread Line >>Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 >> >>Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, >>the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and >>Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to >>whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the >>line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 >>years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a >>"bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat >>the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. >> >>Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as >>applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at >>other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean >>"poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll >>be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that >>"the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from >>a >>biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect >>that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large >>fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a >>figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from >>1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent >>his >>life with "people close to the bread line." >> >>The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were >>a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, >>who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of >>yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail >>baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. >>He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, >>brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the >>Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He >>died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis >>Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and >>died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and >>several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. >>It >>seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members >>had estates in the same village in the Cat! >>skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in >>acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an >>article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a >>depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. >> >>GAT >> >>George A. Thompson >>Author of A Documentary History of "The African >>Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:29:50 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:29:50 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >dInIs > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. >> >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >>are shaped..." >> >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. >> >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. >> >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >>Jesse Sheidlower > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:30:16 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:30:16 -0700 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:38:50 -0400 > >I have known Allen Walker Read since the Sixties. I admired him for his >scholarship, his gentlemanly ways, and his appreciation of my work shown by >his presence (Fred Cassidy was another such appreciator) at any paper I >read >to the ADS, ANS, MLA, and other learned societies. I was hoping he would >publish something more solid than occasional papers, but I'm sure John >Algeo >will be doing justice to his Dictionary of Briticisms. I am sorry to see >Allen go. > >T. M. Paikeday, lexicographer >www.paikeday.net > > >. ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Grant Barrett" >To: >Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:13 PM >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 > > > > Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, � 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a �crit : > > > > > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > > > and > > > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > > > > Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can > > post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal > > relationship with him. > > > > Grant Barrett > > ADS Webmaster > > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:31:06 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:31:06 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Dodi Schultz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:14:50 -0400 > >Jesse Sheidlower asks about subject-verb agreement: > > >> The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a > >> 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This >sentence > >> was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it > >> should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." > >> > >> This objection seems to be correct. > >It is. > > >> However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is > >> _not_ jarring to me... Certainly one would never write, "The stories > >> Smith tell are shaped..." ... I'm thinking that it might be the > >> influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural > >> ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press >tell > >> are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >> Any thoughts? > >I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a plural noun that >is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and that *would* >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press >release.") > >--DS _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:31:16 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:31:16 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Arnold Zwicky >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:16:32 -0700 > >jesse sheidlower reports the odd number agreement in "The stories the >press tell are shaped..." and considers (a) the proximity of >"stories", (b) notional plurality of "press", and (c) the -s ending of >"press". > >i agree that the original example doesn't sound so bad. but things >get *much* worse with singular "story": "The story the press tell is >shaped..." since factors (b) and (c) aren't changed here, we're >left with (a) - perhaps in combination with (d) an anticipation of the >plural "are" immediately following "tell(s)" (and triggered by the >earlier "stories"). > >it's possible to vary some of the factors independently: > (a), (b), (c), no (d): The stories the press tell will be shaped... > (a), (b), no (c), (d): The stories the internet tell are shaped... > (a), no (b), (c), (d): The stories our wire service tell are shaped... >the last two are unquestionably wretched for me, but the first might >get past me, which suggests that the plurality of "stories" is the >most important factor (though the others might help some). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:05 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:05 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: P2052 at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:31:23 EDT > >As with that of other collectiv(ish) nouns, the agreement would depend on >the >intent of the speaker/writer. > >For example, if the intent is the following, then, the plural verb, "are," >is >okay: > >"The stories the [members of the] press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal >agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >In this case, the members of the press are considered as acting separately >or >individually, not as a unit or unified group. > >If, however, the intent is that "the press" is functioning as a unit, then, >"The stories the press tell[s] are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a >'right wing conspiracy' but by..." is correct. > >While I've usually considered "the press" singular, in the example above, >I'd >be inclined to think plural, for such terms as "stories" and "conspiracy," >sugggest a number of individual partipicants whose collective products or >actions evoke a similar theme. > > P-A-T _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:15 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:15 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Jesse Sheidlower >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:00:56 -0400 > >On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >explanation of why there's this discrepancy. > >Jesse Sheidlower _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:26 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:26 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:44:42 -0400 > > > I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > > of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > > plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > > doesn't seem obviously wrong. > > >The influence of the -s ending was exactly what ran through my head >as I read through your post, though maybe it's the combination of the -s >AND the notional plurality of the noun AND the grammatical plurality >of the inverted direct object that do the trick; taken together, they >throw my brain into enough confusion to let the solecism slip by >unnoticed. I suppose there must be a limit to one's linguistic short- >term memory just as there is to one's mathematical memory (as, >for example, when you're quoted too many numbers to remember). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:33:10 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:33:10 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 > >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > > >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to > >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > >release.") > >Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only >in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, >still newspapers? > >Bethany _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:33:20 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Grant Barrett >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:13:50 -0400 > >Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, � 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a �crit : > >>We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, >>and >>the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > >Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can >post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal >relationship with him. > >Grant Barrett >ADS Webmaster >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:34:52 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:34:52 -0700 Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "James A. Landau" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: OED first edition >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT > >>From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, >page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:32:30 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Get lost "babe." ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >dInIs > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. >> >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >>are shaped..." >> >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. >> >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. >> >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >>Jesse Sheidlower > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:35:10 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:35:10 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: This is 7th solicitation within 3 minutes which I have received from this female virus. Help!! Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 > >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > > >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to > >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > >release.") > >Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only >in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, >still newspapers? > >Bethany _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:36:05 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: 8th. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: OED first edition Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "James A. Landau" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: OED first edition >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT > >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, >page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 22:11:13 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:13 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Paul Kusinitz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 > >Get lost "babe." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lisa O'Brien > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: Agreement question > > > Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw >your > message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about >it. I > think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some >more > pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of > it...I don't really know how to do that. > http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I >am > still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little >later, > and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day > even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Re: Agreement question > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > > > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's > >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >> > >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not > >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." > >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is > >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells > >>are shaped..." > >> > >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, > >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to > >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with > >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >> > >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >> > >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >>Any thoughts? > >> > >>Jesse Sheidlower > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >Professor of Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and Languages > >740 Wells Hall A > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office - (517) 353-0740 > >Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 22:11:45 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:45 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Beverly Flanigan >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:39:33 -0400 > >I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to >words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I >can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the >source. Was it on this list? > >At 01:00 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >> >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >> >plural sense rather than the 's' business. >> >>Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >>others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >>acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >>the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >>explanation of why there's this discrepancy. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 22:14:25 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:14:25 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:11 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Paul Kusinitz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 > >Get lost "babe." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lisa O'Brien > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: Agreement question > > > Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw >your > message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about >it. I > think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some >more > pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of > it...I don't really know how to do that. > http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I >am > still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little >later, > and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day > even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Re: Agreement question > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > > > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's > >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >> > >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not > >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." > >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is > >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells > >>are shaped..." > >> > >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, > >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to > >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with > >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >> > >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >> > >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >>Any thoughts? > >> > >>Jesse Sheidlower > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >Professor of Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and Languages > >740 Wells Hall A > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office - (517) 353-0740 > >Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 18 23:04:34 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:04:34 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <00a501c276f3$b868c680$07d90044@cx2185064b> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: >Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul, it would help if you would refrain from reposting all her messages to the list. Thanks, Bethany From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 23:08:23 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:08:23 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Thank You Bethany. You are the second person who has brought this to my attention. Something which I'd forgotten. Thank you. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: >Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul, it would help if you would refrain from reposting all her messages to the list. Thanks, Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 23:13:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:13:48 -0400 Subject: Offending poster Message-ID: The spam poster has been removed from the list. Sorry for the annoyance. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 03:09:06 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:06 -0400 Subject: [bapopik@juno.com: FUI/FWI & DUI/DWI] Message-ID: >From Barry, in Malta. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- X-Original-From: bapopik at juno.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:31:36 GMT To: jester at panix.com Cc: Subject: FUI/FWI & DUI/DWI X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 From: bapopik at juno.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * F.U.I. is on the Drudgereport today. Another pilot got caught FUI (Flying Under the Influence). A Google Groups check shows also FWI (Flying While Intoxicated). Both have been around awhile. OED has neither FUI nor FWI. So I checked for the good old DUI and DWI. They're not there, either! Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? ----- End forwarded message ----- From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 03:09:28 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:28 -0400 Subject: [bapopik@juno.com: More Malta Musings] Message-ID: >From Barry. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- X-Original-From: bapopik at juno.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:09:51 GMT To: Jester at panix.com Cc: Subject: More Malta Musings X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 From: bapopik at juno.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=LINES_OF_YELLING,NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, SUPERLONG_LINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: L greetings again from Malta...This computer still won't let me reach the AOL "SEND" button on the right of the screen, so I'm using JUNO again...I apologize for the computer settings that showed up on copied text. I have oatmeal for brains...I have one more touring day (Saturday), and then I travel home on Sunday. I'll try to attend any NYC service for Allen Walker Read if it's given on Monday or later. Maybe David Shulman or others are interested in going. Please post if anyone has any info. Friday was Gozo day...Saturday is packed, so it looks like I won't make it to the National Library on this trip. OKey--name of a product by Gelati Stocchi. GOZO CHEESE SALAD--Lettuce, tomatoes, onion rings. GOZITAN BREAD GOZITANA PIZZA--mozzarella, tomatoes, salami, onions, ham, garlic, capers, olives. Seen at another place as tomato sauce, Maltese sausage, Gozo cheese, olives, onion, anchovies, capers and mozzarella. MALTIJA PIZZA--Seen many places now. Tomato sauce, mozzarella, Maltese sausages, pepperoni cheese, eggs, mushrooms, green pepper, and oregano. MALTESE FTIRA--gotta have this for lunch tomorrow. Seen everywhere, it can be "tomatoes, capers, tuna, olives," on Maltese bread. KINNIE--the local soft drink is made of bitter oranges. It wasn't to my taste. See www.kinnie.com. There is a local drink called "Kinnie Winnie"--Brandy, orange, Grand Marnier, Kinnie. BOMBETTE--"filled with spinach, mozzarella and ham." See www.cordina.com. The place dates back to 1837. FRULLATI--"mixed fresh fruit drinks," offered by JUSCAFE (which also has Smoothies). It's about the same. CHOCOLACCINO--"Cappucino-Panna-Chocolate," also by JUSCAFE. MALTESE COFFEE--with "tamakari/madlien." Found at many places. CHICAGO PEPPERONI--seen at one place. Why Chicago? BURGER KING--In the center of Malta, guarded by the Knights of Malta, is the "Burger King." THE FOOD & COOKERY OF MALTA (first printed in 1972) by Anne and Helen Caruana Galizia--This book has a bibliography, but there isn't a cookbook older than the 1960s in it. A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: "SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." MALTESE LANGUAGE SIGN AT THE BEACH: MHUX PERMESS TGHUM JEW TIXXEMMEX "TOPLESS" JEW GHARWIEN. NO NUDE OR TOPLESS SWIMMING AND SUNBATHING. (If they're going to prohibit Jewish women from going topless, I've got to re-think about moving here--ed.) ----- End forwarded message ----- From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 19 04:08:41 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:08:41 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Bethany Dumas notes: >> << The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to those >> disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. (Smarter >> PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press release.") >> And asks: >> Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >> disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news >> only in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, >> today, still newspapers? No, I am saying that newspapers constitute a subclass of those instruments disseminating news. Yes, newspapers--those things sold on newsstands, made of paper--disseminate news only in print. Or more specifically, "the press" suggests news carriers that are created, um, on a *press*. The word *media* is more general and includes radio, television, the Internet.... Online versions of newspapers? No, they're not newspapers (as I would define the word). Sometimes they're online versions of the newspapers issued by their parent organizations. Sometimes they are not, and the online Gazette or Journal or Times may have stories that won't appear in the print parent until the next day or won't appear in the print edition at all. (And vice versa.) --Dodi Schultz From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 19 04:36:33 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:36:33 -0400 Subject: Cargo Cult Message-ID: The OED has 1949 for "cargo cult," but anthropologists have traced the term back further. From 1945, and believed to be the first use of the term in print: >>Stemming directly from religious teaching of equality, and its resulting sense of injustice, is what is generally known as "Vailala Madness," or "Cargo Cult." . . . In all cases the "Madness" takes the same form: A native, infected with the disorder, states that he has been visited by a relative long dead, who stated that a great number of ships loaded with "cargo" had been sent by the ancestor of the native for the benefit of the natives of a particular village or area. But the white man, being very cunning, knows how to intercept these ships and takes the "cargo" for his own use . . . .<< Norris Mervyn Bird, "Is There Danger of a Post-war Flare-up Among New Guinea Natives?" Pacific Islands Monthly 16(4, Nov. 1945): 69 - 70 (quoted in Lamont Lindstrom, Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond 15 - 16 (1993)). John M. Baker From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 09:33:00 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:33:00 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: Barry P noted: >> F.U.I. is on the Drudgereport today. Another pilot got caught FUI (Flying Under the Influence). A Google Groups check shows also FWI (Flying While Intoxicated). Both have been around awhile. OED has neither FUI nor FWI. So I checked for the good old DUI and DWI. They're not there, either! Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? << Both DUI and DWI are in the New Oxford American Dict, and I expect are also in other general American dicts. This is a fairly common occurrence, that OED should not report something that IS in the "current English" or synchronic-coverage dicts. OED has catching up to do, esp. with regard to American items, and esp. those that are more recent, say, latter half of the 20th c. and later. Also, I don't know OED's policy on coverage of abbreviations. Jesse? Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 09:53:53 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:53:53 -0400 Subject: soccer/football usages Message-ID: Doug W said: >> As for "the team": I would (myself) tend to refer to a soccer/football team in the singular in most contexts, but apparently the plural is more common (but not universal) with team names, e.g., "Manchester United were formed in 1878", "Brazil are the most popular team". I was struck by the prevalence of such usage during the World Cup news coverage recently. << This (_team_ as plural) is the case for soccer/"football" (Brit.), owing to the influence of the British mode of using certain group terms as collectives, construed as plurals. Esp. in the broadcasting of soccer, Brit. influence is apparent. My guess is that American sports announcers who do this learned it from listening to Toby Charles, who did the broadcasts of the German Football League (Bundesliga) for many years on TV (PBS, I think). I believe Charles was British, and if not so, he certainly learned his English from Brits. He had the expected British tendencies, with collectives-as-plurals and zero-as-nil, etc. At ESPN, the sportscasters now report soccer scores of zero (0) as "nil", following the Brit. mode. I think they do this tongue-in-cheek, but they do it. Noteworthy also is that in the US we often say "soccer team" and "soccer game", but that in UK "football club/side" (sometimes "team") and "football match" are more usual. In fact, I don't think "football game" is allowable in Brit. Eng. (at least, not for a "soccer game"), but I may be wrong. Maybe Michael Q can chime in on this. This may be one of the only areas in which British English has demonstrably influenced American English, with real evidence to show it. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 10:50:33 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:50:33 -0400 Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) In-Reply-To: <96C1D9BE-E2B4-11D6-A71D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Replying to Grant Barrett's request for personal comments on Allen Walker Read: I knew of him before I first met him, as he was a mentor (at Columbia) of Larry Urdang. Larry always spoke of him in the most glowing terms. Then at the DSNA in Ann Arbor in 1985 I had the pleasure of meeting him, as we were both on our way to a paper. We had a pleasant conversation, and he seemed happy to hear about Larry and the work we were doing. I was in awe, because of what Larry had told me, from the fact that I knew he had written the entry on dictionaries for Britannica, and from his record of scholarship. For his part, he was as gracious and friendly to me as if I had been an old acquaintance. Allen was "just folks". Over the years I ran into him again at various meetings, or heard him deliver papers, even if I did not have a chance to actually say hello. As for his papers, he had an inimitable style. His delivery was fairly dry, but every once in a while he would throw in a zinger, and coming from that sort of style, it was even funnier than otherwise. His papers were also very clear and pointed, and backed by full evidence. He would deliver a paper from a set of large index cards, onto which he taped clippings he was going to use, with his own comments scribbled around them on the cards. It worked. I was so impressed by the eminent practicality of this approach that I have tried to adopt it myself, though I will never be in Allen's league as regards delivering a paper. One particularly memorable paper Allen gave was at an ADS meeting in NYC one year, where he was invited to give a special address. He re-read as a paper a story he had written about his waiting to receive his degree from an Oxford college. He had written this shortly after he took his degree at Oxford, in the late 20s, I believe. The story won an award at the time he first published it. To hear him read it was a great pleasure. The room at ADS was packed, and dead silent throughout, except for several interjections of laughter at the funny lines. This is one of the best paper experiences I can recall, and I expect others who were there would agree. That paper at ADS, as well as many others Allen wrote over the years, are now published in the volume just completed by ADS, edited by Richard Bailey and prepared for the printer by Charles Carson. If you don't have this book, get it. Many of Allen's papers here collected had never been in print before. It is worth noting that Allen is cited in the **very first** footnote of all in Mencken's groundbreaking study _The American Language_; see p. 3. The paper cited was published in 1933. That is by no means his earliest paper, however, and he continued to produce papers until just a few years ago. Some 70+ years of scholarship from one man -- what an astounding legacy of work! Finally, I had the enormous privilege of visiting the Reads at their apartment near Columbia, about two years ago. I was invited along by Dick Bailey, who was in NYC for a conference, and was going to visit the Reads to discuss the work (ongoing then, now complete) on two collections of Allen's papers, one on American names and the other on American language (noted above). At this meeting, I was able to see the enormous amount of collected material Allen and Charlotte had in their apartment (which they had been in since the late 1940s), basically the raw materials for scores of papers and other work over the decades, not to mention what appeared to be thousands of books. Charlotte, too (who died a few months back), was a noted scholar, and much of the material was hers. The Reads, who did not know me well at all, were very kind. I was able to take a few photos of them on that day. Allen was in poor health, but still flashed that grin. Also, Allen seemed quite proud of his recent listing in "Who's Who in Hell", a collection, then just out, with brief bio entries on noted folks who had openly expressed utter rejection of various forms of spiritualism and religion. [aside to Grant -- can you post photos? I have several of them scanned, and can send files in the format you require.] There might be more if I think further, but those are the high points that come to mind. Ave atque vale, AWR. Frank Abate From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 11:29:31 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:29:31 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Abigail Zitin of the OED's North American staff asked me to do some research on DWI in March of this year (she had noticed while working on DWB that there was no entry for DWI), so I suspect an entry for at least that one is in the works. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 12:19:43 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 08:19:43 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 19, 2002 at 07:29:31AM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Abigail Zitin of the OED's North American staff asked me to do some > research on DWI in March of this year (she had noticed while working on > DWB that there was no entry for DWI), so I suspect an entry for at least > that one is in the works. Yes, that's right. Jesse Sheidlower OED From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Oct 19 12:58:58 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:58:58 -0500 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp Message-ID: Then there are the insulting DW's DWH= Driving While Hispanic DWP= Driving While Polish Insert any group you want to disparage. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Oct 19 13:17:04 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:17:04 -0400 Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) Message-ID: I would like to join Frank in his classical farewell "Ave atque vale" to Allen Walker Read. I am sure "senatus populusque romanus" join us. I did not have a chance to know Allen so well as Frank and others closer to New York did, but I will get a copy of the new compendium of his papers and writings. Allen had done me the honour of being one of the first to purchase a copy of my magnum opus in 1985. A small and quite solid work that I treasure is his _Classic American Graffiti_ ("Naturalia non sunt turpia") which I often use to regale friends and visitors innocent of linguistics and lexicography.with. Allen Walker Read was a giant in his field. When shall we see his like again? tom paikeday ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:50 AM Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) > Replying to Grant Barrett's request for personal comments on Allen Walker > Read: > > I knew of him before I first met him, as he was a mentor (at Columbia) of > Larry Urdang. Larry always spoke of him in the most glowing terms. Then at > the DSNA in Ann Arbor in 1985 I had the pleasure of meeting him, as we were > both on our way to a paper. We had a pleasant conversation, and he seemed > happy to hear about Larry and the work we were doing. I was in awe, because > of what Larry had told me, from the fact that I knew he had written the > entry on dictionaries for Britannica, and from his record of scholarship. > For his part, he was as gracious and friendly to me as if I had been an old > acquaintance. Allen was "just folks". > > Over the years I ran into him again at various meetings, or heard him > deliver papers, even if I did not have a chance to actually say hello. As > for his papers, he had an inimitable style. His delivery was fairly dry, > but every once in a while he would throw in a zinger, and coming from that > sort of style, it was even funnier than otherwise. His papers were also > very clear and pointed, and backed by full evidence. He would deliver a > paper from a set of large index cards, onto which he taped clippings he was > going to use, with his own comments scribbled around them on the cards. It > worked. I was so impressed by the eminent practicality of this approach > that I have tried to adopt it myself, though I will never be in Allen's > league as regards delivering a paper. > > One particularly memorable paper Allen gave was at an ADS meeting in NYC one > year, where he was invited to give a special address. He re-read as a paper > a story he had written about his waiting to receive his degree from an > Oxford college. He had written this shortly after he took his degree at > Oxford, in the late 20s, I believe. The story won an award at the time he > first published it. To hear him read it was a great pleasure. The room at > ADS was packed, and dead silent throughout, except for several interjections > of laughter at the funny lines. This is one of the best paper experiences I > can recall, and I expect others who were there would agree. > > That paper at ADS, as well as many others Allen wrote over the years, are > now published in the volume just completed by ADS, edited by Richard Bailey > and prepared for the printer by Charles Carson. If you don't have this > book, get it. Many of Allen's papers here collected had never been in print > before. > > It is worth noting that Allen is cited in the **very first** footnote of all > in Mencken's groundbreaking study _The American Language_; see p. 3. The > paper cited was published in 1933. That is by no means his earliest paper, > however, and he continued to produce papers until just a few years ago. > Some 70+ years of scholarship from one man -- what an astounding legacy of > work! > > Finally, I had the enormous privilege of visiting the Reads at their > apartment near Columbia, about two years ago. I was invited along by Dick > Bailey, who was in NYC for a conference, and was going to visit the Reads to > discuss the work (ongoing then, now complete) on two collections of Allen's > papers, one on American names and the other on American language (noted > above). At this meeting, I was able to see the enormous amount of collected > material Allen and Charlotte had in their apartment (which they had been in > since the late 1940s), basically the raw materials for scores of papers and > other work over the decades, not to mention what appeared to be thousands of > books. Charlotte, too (who died a few months back), was a noted scholar, > and much of the material was hers. The Reads, who did not know me well at > all, were very kind. I was able to take a few photos of them on that day. > Allen was in poor health, but still flashed that grin. Also, Allen seemed > quite proud of his recent listing in "Who's Who in Hell", a collection, then > just out, with brief bio entries on noted folks who had openly expressed > utter rejection of various forms of spiritualism and religion. > > [aside to Grant -- can you post photos? I have several of them scanned, and > can send files in the format you require.] > > There might be more if I think further, but those are the high points that > come to mind. > > Ave atque vale, AWR. > > Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 14:05:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:05:30 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: <002401c2776f$4a4f9580$f906433f@paulz> Message-ID: At 7:58 AM -0500 10/19/02, paulzjoh wrote: >Then there are the insulting DW's >DWH= Driving While Hispanic >DWP= Driving While Polish > >Insert any group you want to disparage. Actually, the first of these spinoffs, DWB [while Black], was not intended to insult or disparage black drivers, but the police who stop them as an instance of racial profiling. The term itself, I'm pretty sure, was invented by black drivers experiencing this. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 19 14:08:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:08:20 -0400 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows Message-ID: Greetings from my last day in Malta. I visited the Blue Grotto (for which I call the Grew Blotto). Then I went to the catacombs and the cave of St. Paul. Many years ago, I had solved why Saul changed his name to Paul. The answer was so simple and revealed everything, but no one was going to believe me, so I did something simple instead like help solve the Big Apple. The letters in the name "Paul" equals "Sophia," or "Wisdom"...Nah, on to food. TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if "turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and chicken. BLUE HAWAII PIZZA--tomatoes, mozzarella, blue cheese, pineapple, ham, pimentos and oregano. CAFFE CORDINA--I saw another web site for this: http://vol.net.mt/caffecordina PREGNANT WINDOWS--Bars on windows that extend out at the bottom. OED? THE ITALIAN WHO WENT TO MALTA--A popular bit of Italian "dialect" on tourist stuff here. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Oct 19 14:26:55 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:26:55 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI add In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the last 5 years, because the feds threatened cutting off waterway funds for states that didn't have them, most states have enacted BWI/BUI laws, boating while intoxicated or boating under the influence of drugs. rhk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 14:27:42 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:27:42 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: <002401c2776f$4a4f9580$f906433f@paulz> Message-ID: yOn Sat, 19 Oct 2002, paulzjoh wrote: > Then there are the insulting DW's > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > DWP= Driving While Polish Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving while black' is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction from the DWB term. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Sat Oct 19 15:06:41 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:06:41 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: I loved the phrase "jubilance is an explanation for a lot of the things that happen in language," which the Times article took from a New Yorker piece, perhaps the one written by Michelle Stacey in 1989, mentioned earlier in the obit. I'd like to see the full quotation, but I can't find this New Yorker article. Can anyone provide the full quote or, better still, a link to the New Yorker article online? Thank you. Paul From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Oct 19 15:07:29 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:07:29 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| |o| > Then there are the insulting DW's |o| > DWH= Driving While Hispanic |o| > DWP= Driving While Polish |o| |o| Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving |o| while black' |o| is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial |o| profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, |o| unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction |o| from the DWB term. |o| Spent the years 76-86 policing down in San Antonio, and it was a common accusation Black drivers would hurl at the police back then, " What'd you stop me for...Driving While Black? That a crime in this state, too?" Most often whenever I'd hear that phrase, it was used by the subject of the stop. The pedestrian version was WWB, walking while Black. There was a similar Hispanic complaint that varied a bit, DWS (spic) or DWM (Mexican). Of course, traffic tickets (outside of traffic enforcement efforts--like radar traps) are really just the legal fig leaf most cops use to see who's in the car and what they're up to, just in case they turn up something that ends up in court. In the above situation, the driver probably thinks that the ticket he's getting for "No White Light Over License Plate" is pretty much the equivalent of Driving While Black. On the police side of the jargon, this incident would usually be described as a "felony _______ stop" (felony plate light stop, felony white light showing to the rear, etc.), which roughly translates to the car didn't belong in the area, there's something I don't like about the occupants, the license plate was out, and I had my weapon ready when I approached the car. rhk From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Oct 19 15:17:06 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:17:06 -0500 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp Message-ID: Insulting to blacks would be DWN > |o| > |o| > Then there are the insulting DW's > |o| > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > |o| > DWP= Driving While Polish > |o| > |o| Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving > |o| while black' > |o| is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial > |o| profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, > |o| unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction > |o| from the DWB term. > |o| > > Spent the years 76-86 policing down in San Antonio, and it was a common > accusation Black drivers would hurl at the police back then, " What'd you > stop me for...Driving While Black? That a crime in this state, too?" > > Most often whenever I'd hear that phrase, it was used by the subject of the > stop. The pedestrian version was WWB, walking while Black. There was a > similar Hispanic complaint that varied a bit, DWS (spic) or DWM (Mexican). > > Of course, traffic tickets (outside of traffic enforcement efforts--like > radar traps) are really just the legal fig leaf most cops use to see who's > in the car and what they're up to, just in case they turn up something that > ends up in court. In the above situation, the driver probably thinks that > the ticket he's getting for "No White Light Over License Plate" is pretty > much the equivalent of Driving While Black. > > On the police side of the jargon, this incident would usually be described > as a "felony _______ stop" (felony plate light stop, felony white light > showing to the rear, etc.), which roughly translates to the car didn't > belong in the area, there's something I don't like about the occupants, the > license plate was out, and I had my weapon ready when I approached the car. > > rhk > From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Oct 19 16:45:08 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:45:08 -0700 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > yOn Sat, 19 Oct 2002, paulzjoh wrote: > > > Then there are the insulting DW's > > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > > DWP= Driving While Polish > > Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving > while black' is a phrase used by African-Americans and > supporters to criticize racial profiling. I'm not quite > sure what sense the terms above would make, unless they are > related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction > from the DWB term. > > Fred Shapiro Here in the Bay Area, I've heard "driving while Asian" with some frequency in recent years. Unlike DWB, it most definitely is disparaging, referring to the belief that Asians have poor driving skills. I've never heard the initials, DWA, used in this context though, only the full phrase. It definitely takes the term in another direction from DWB. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Oct 19 16:42:00 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:42:00 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: >abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes: Barry P noted:... > Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? The abbreviation (initialism) DUI is an entry in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 7.2, c. 1992). DWI was treated in The Second Barnhart Dictionary of New English (c. 1980). Both are noted in The Barnhart New-Words Concordance (originally published in 1994). DWI was entered in 9,000 Words (c. 1983); it also appears in the major college dictionaries. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Oct 19 20:27:24 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:27:24 -0400 Subject: Almost In-Reply-To: <1034834341.3dae51a5c5c24@www.mailshell.com> Message-ID: No, she's from Athens County, in SE Ohio--lived here all her life. Anyone else? At 10:59 PM 10/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Is the custodian from Milwaukee? This has a Wisconsinite flavor. > > From Beverly Flanigan on 16 Oct 2002: > > > She said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it" From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 19 20:50:43 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:50:43 EDT Subject: Coke and Pepsi Message-ID: Has anyone heard the phrase "coke and pepsi" to refer to a children's game in which the participants line up in two lines (called "Coke" and "Pepsi") and at an MC's command do ridiculous things? It's popular at bar/bat mitzvah parties here in the Atlantic City area. I've never heard of it anywhere else, so it could be the invention of some local person who does gigs as MC at bar mitzvah parties. - Jim Landau (just returned from a bar mitzvah dinner at which Coke and Pepsi was played) From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Oct 20 02:10:25 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:10:25 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: Both DUI and DWI *are* in the Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1998); the flying variants are not. --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 02:27:38 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:27:38 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To the extent that "the press" can refer to a motley group of organizations and/or their individual representatives, many of them competing with each other and with different agendas, it makes sense to see them as telling plural diverse "stories" and for the diversity of those stories to support the diversity, and hence inherent plurality, of the press. This is IMHO not nearly so applicable to "the team". From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 02:47:50 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:47:50 -0400 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows In-Reply-To: <7644ECD0.65A31E7A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # Greetings from my last day in Malta. # I visited the Blue Grotto (for which I call the Grew Blotto). Then I went to the catacombs and the cave of St. Paul. Many years ago, I had solved why Saul changed his name to Paul. The answer was so simple and revealed everything, but no one was going to believe me, so I did something simple instead like help solve the Big Apple. The letters in the name "Paul" equals "Sophia," or "Wisdom"...Nah, on to food. # #TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if #"turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor #Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and #chicken. Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 04:20:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:20:55 -0400 Subject: Smoke Nazi; Honey Ring; Calippo; Rock Cake; Pizza Rustica Message-ID: Only a few more hours left in Malta. O.T. VIRGINIA SNIPER--I have Sky News and Fox News and CNN International in my hotel here. Both Sky and Fox have ben covering the latest sniper shooting in Virginia for the past two+ hours. There is NOTHING about it on CNN. Not in the news ribbon at the bottom. Not in the headline newscast. NOTHING! CNN then broadcast a two-week-old Larry King interview with Madonna. "The King of Talk" added: "I think you'll be 'swept away' by this movie." Incredible. BLUE HAWAII "BLUE CHEESE"--I should have added that it was indeed "blue cheese," not "bleu cheese." Probably from the Blue Grotto. READREADREADREADREADREADREAD--A tourist in my group has a library bag that prints this word over and over. I didn't think about it much, but then Allen Walker Read died and I can't look at it the same way. SMOKE NAZI--The title of an editorial in Saturday's NEW YORK TIMES. "--Nazi" is not new, but "Smoke Nazi" might gain some frequency in NYC now. CALIPPO--Iced fruit roll-ups. Sold here in Malta. A web check shows that several manufacturers, such as Walls, make "Calippos." ROCK CAKE--A sweet in Malta. Looks like a "scone" to me. MALTESE FRUIT TART--With "dates, raisins, lemon and orange marmalade." Looks like an ordinary fruit tart to me. ALMOND BONES WINTER ICE CREAM--A cupcake made to look like an ice cream cone. CINNAMON VILLAGE BISCUITS MINTNIGHT--A flavor seen here. Not many web hits for it yet. HONEY RING--Sold many places. The Caffee Cordina packaging says: A traditional Maltese sweet made with black treacle, marmalade, orange peel, spices and honey. This Maltese specialty dates back to the 15th century and may be enjoyed with wine or as a dessert. PRICKLY PEAR WINE--Sold all over. It's pink. Zeppi's Bajtra Liqueurs sells "A Prickly Pear Liqueur produced from the traditional fruit of the Maltese Islands." PIZZA RUSTICA--Seen all over. One places has it as tomatoes, olive oil, anchovies, oregano, capers, and olives. Not in OED? PIZZA CAPRICIOSA--mozzarella, tomatoes, mushrooms, eggs, ham, and oregano. Also seen on many pizza menus. PIZZA NAPOLITANA--mozzarella, tomatoes, anchovies, oregano, capers. PIZZAS--One place sells Margherita, Peperoni, Rustica, Ai Funghi, Capricciosa, Calzone (Closed Pizza), Quattro Staioni, Quattro Formaggi, Vegetarian, Maltija, Mustina, Frutta di Mare. POVERTY, CHASTITY, AND OBEDIENCE--Sacred vows of the Knights of Malta and New York City administrative law judges. How do I apply to be a knight? From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Oct 20 05:24:29 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:24:29 -0700 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? Ooh, yes, and I think this is the first time I've seen it written. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Oct 20 06:51:11 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:51:11 -0500 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows Message-ID: > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > # Greetings from my last day in Malta. <> > # ...Nah, on to food. > # > #TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if > #"turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor > #Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and > #chicken. To which Mark Mandel responded: > Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? Not me, but it looks like a relative of the "Alexander" of a song from the 1940s: "Half swan, half goose, Alexander is a swoose." My first reaction to "turducken" made a primary slice into "turd" and "ucken", followed by a second split between the noun "uck" and a verbalizing suffix "-en". Hence "turducken": a label for the process of saying "uck" when you see a turd. Before anybody asks, AFIK this interpretation of "turducken" is my own invention. Now that I thunk it up, however, I would suggest finding some other word if you're tempted to put the portmanteau word on a menu. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! P.S.: Lest I prompt an attack of Wild Prescriptivists from Outer Space, the "Not me" with which I began was originally written "Not I". I just thought that was too PAAAC (P triple A C), our family putdown abbreviation for "pedantic accuracy at all costs". From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 08:04:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 04:04:31 -0400 Subject: Turducken (1980, by Paul Prudhomme) Message-ID: A quick check of USPTO trademark records show that "Turducken" has a first use of 1980-11-27 by Paul Prudhomme, a/k/a K-Paul's Louisiana Kitchen. It looks like it makes the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, in my opinion. I didn't check Mark's concoction--gotta run! From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Oct 20 08:56:14 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:56:14 -0700 Subject: Quote of the month Message-ID: I thought this would interest some of our folk who are interested in Neg attraction to indefinites: "Everyone didn't know where he was going." -- Hal Pastner, high school coach of UA basketball recruit Ndudi Ebi Arizona Daily Wildcat, Wed., October 2, 2002, p. 9. From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 12:40:18 2002 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:40:18 EDT Subject: Allan Metcalf in TVR Message-ID: In the November issue of The Vocabula Review (www.vocabula.com): Penman -- Joseph Epstein The Myth of Gaps -- Allan Metcalf Playing with a Full Deck -- Richard Lederer Get 'em to Read Real Books -- Susan Elkin Sound Off: Lawyers vs. Language: Kelly Cannon Two Poems -- Laura Cherry The Elder Statesman: The Proud and the Pitiful -- Clark Elder Morrow The Last Word: What's so Funny? -- Christopher Orlet Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf Letters to the Editor The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $4.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 20 19:01:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:01:32 -0400 Subject: (Almost-)new word sighting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Google has 24 hits on "smoke-easies" (plural), and I found 31 on >Nexis, mostly from the last couple of years but one going back to >12/31/97 P.S. I should have been more careful. A lot of those 31 involve "smoke" and "easy" but not "smoke-easy/easies". (I didn't use quotes possible around the search item the way I did on google.) Also, more substantively, several involve places where you can get away with smoking other substances than tobacco. The first cite mentioned above still applies, though. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 20 18:56:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:56:39 -0400 Subject: (Almost-)new word sighting Message-ID: Well, not exactly BRAND-SPANKING new... 'Other smoke-ban municipalities have allowed bars to reorganize as private smoking clubs--"smoke-easies," they have been called.' Bill Keller, "The Smoke Nazis", NTY 10/19/02, A17 Of course the base is not "drink-easies", but "speak-easies", but this is the standard pattern (cf. hamburgers>cheeseburgers, veggie-burgers,...). And yes, other variants are mentioned in the column, but clearly as nonce-terms: 'Commissioner Frieden is scornful of such exemptions. "We don't allow asbestos-easies," he says. "We don't allow formaldehyde-easies, or radiation-easies." ' So either "-easies" or at least "smoke-easies" as a WOTY candidate? Google has 24 hits on "smoke-easies" (plural), and I found 31 on Nexis, mostly from the last couple of years but one going back to 12/31/97, a NYT article about Los Angeles, in which the plural is curiously given as "smoke-easy's". (I didn't check "Among the New Words".) The earliest hits are mostly from California, for obvious reasons. larry From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sun Oct 20 21:03:13 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:03:13 -0400 Subject: Query Message-ID: If memory serves correctly, someone in the ADS-L used to have a quote after his/her name the thrust of which was the difficulty in logically arguing someone out of a mind-set into which that person didn't get logically. The quote put this thought most succinctly and far better than I've restated it. I'd appreciate a copy of that quote. Thanks in advance. Bob Fitzke From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Oct 20 22:33:58 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:33:58 -0400 Subject: Quote of the month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And how about that terrible Tom Jones song of some years ago: "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." (I suppose it was for prosodic reasons?) At 01:56 AM 10/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I thought this would interest some of our folk who are interested in Neg >attraction to indefinites: > > > "Everyone didn't know where he was going." > > > -- Hal Pastner, high school coach of UA basketball recruit Ndudi Ebi > > Arizona Daily Wildcat, Wed., October 2, 2002, p. 9. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 23:22:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:22:17 -0400 Subject: -nazi (was Re: Smoke Nazi...) In-Reply-To: <6875403B.0F433840.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #SMOKE NAZI--The title of an editorial in Saturday's NEW YORK TIMES. #"--Nazi" is not new, but "Smoke Nazi" might gain some frequency in NYC #now. On the newsgroup rec.music.filk, which I participate in, people often post new lyrics to existing tunes. The original tune is often referenced with the abbreviation "ttto" = "to the tune of". Often, however, they don't bother to name the original tune, assuming it's obvious, or saying "to the obvious tune". Many times it's nothing like obvious, and sometimes the poster is surprised at the number of people saying so. I am rather fussy about explicit "ttto..."; I have written a song about it (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/TTTOWhat.html) and will often follow-up to a ttto-less lyric with the name of what I think is the tune, generally trying to avoid rudeness. Just the other day a friend posted a ttto-less lyric and I followed up approximately as follows: > Ttto...? > > -- Mark Mandel, ttto-nazi (but I really don't recognize it, and if I > knew the title I could look it up) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 05:43:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:43:40 EDT Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. AMERICAN SPEECH (Fall 2002) was in my mail. There's a nice note on the origin of "Pie in the Sky" on pages 331-336, although it strains to improve on Michael Quinion's fine January 2001 post in WORLD WIDE WORLDS. "Pie in the Sky" is mentioned in the Salvation Army hymn "In the Sweet Bye and Bye" (1911). Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). We can do better than that. Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: During the First World War (1914-18), the Canadian Salvation Army's overseas activities were undertaken as part of the much larger effort organized by British Salvationists. The affectionate nickname 'Sally Ann' and the familiar Red Shield logo also date from this period. Created: December 8, 2000. Last update: September 27, 2001 © Canadian War Museum Important Notices From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 06:18:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:18:12 EDT Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) Message-ID: This is the only "Churkendoose" trademark I could find. It's certainly not the first citation. "Turducken" follows: Typed DrawingWord Mark CHURKENDOOSE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: Food products and novelty items Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78033663 Filing Date November 3, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Owner (APPLICANT) Borchardt, Darrell INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 202 W. Main Street, P.O. Box 103 Wayland IOWA 52654 Attorney of Record Bruce W. McKee Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 9, 2001 Typed DrawingWord Mark TURDUCKEN Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: COMBINATION TURKEY, DUCK AND CHICKEN ENTREE FOR CONSUMPTION ON OR OFF THE PREMISES. FIRST USE: 19801127. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19801127 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73576432 Filing Date January 6, 1986 Published for Opposition June 3, 1986 Registration Number 1406947 Registration Date August 26, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) PRUDHOMME, PAUL DBA K-PAUL'S LOUISIANA KITCHEN INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 406 CHARTRES STREET NEW ORLEANS LOUISIANA 70130(LAST LISTED OWNER) TASSO TRAVEL, INC. UNKNOWN ASSIGNEE OF Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ANDREW V. GALWAY Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 07:13:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:13:11 EDT Subject: DWI (1963, 1975); DUI (1970) Message-ID: Some DWI/DUI materials in the Library of Congress. I'll go there once this sniper thing is resolved. Report / Commission on "Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug". Relevance: LC Control Number: 66032319 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Ireland. Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug. Report / Commission on "Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug". Dublin : Stationery Office, [1963?] 139 p. : forms ; 25 cm. CALL NUMBER: HE5620.D7 I7 Copy 1 -- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms -- Status: Not Charged Driving while intoxicated : prosecution and defense of the DWI charge /... Relevance: LC Control Number: 76355566 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Driving while intoxicated : prosecution and defense of the DWI charge / Robert E. Oliphant, editor ... [et al.]. Saint Paul : Mason Pub. Co., c1975. v, 235 p. : ill. ; 26 cm. CALL NUMBER: KF8925.T7 D74 Copy 1 -- Request in: Law Library Reading Room (Madison, LM201) -- Status: Not Charged Rehabilitation of the drunken driver; a corrective course in Phoenix, Ariz.... Relevance: LC Control Number: 73137738 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Stewart, Ernest I. (Ernest Israel), 1913- Rehabilitation of the drunken driver; a corrective course in Phoenix, Ariz. for persons convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol [by] Ernest I. Stewart and James L. Malfetti. New York, Teachers College Press, Columbia University [1970] vi, 259 p. illus. 21 cm. CALL NUMBER: HE5620.D7 S87 Copy 1 -- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms -- Status: Not Charged From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 07:45:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:45:32 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey (Anaheim Angels) & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and Sack Monkey: Typed DrawingWord Mark TOUCHDOWN MONKEY Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES IN THE NATURE OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GAMES. FIRST USE: 20010800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010800 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029078 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Registration Number 2619004 Registration Date September 10, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Typed DrawingWord Mark FIELD GOAL MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029090 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 26, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark TWO POINT CONVERSION MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029118 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 15, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark SAFETY MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029106 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 15, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark EXTRA POINT MONKEY Goods and Services IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: STUFFED TOY ANIMALS. FIRST USE: 20001000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20001000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029087 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Registration Number 2602886 Registration Date July 30, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "MONKEY" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Typed DrawingWord Mark SACK MONKEY Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029095 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Oct 21 08:25:36 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:25:36 +0100 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) In-Reply-To: <157.1631c29b.2ae4ee0c@aol.com> Message-ID: > There's a nice note on the origin of "Pie in the Sky" on pages > 331-336, although it strains to improve on Michael Quinion's fine > January 2001 post in WORLD WIDE WORLDS. Thank you! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 21 09:47:14 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:47:14 +0100 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) Message-ID: > Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation >Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). >We can do better than that. Perhaps, but not me. The best I have remains the AS cite, which reads: 1927 Charlie Samolar 'The Argot of the Vagabond' (AS II:9) 387: Sally Ann is the sobriquet for Salvation Army Two years later comes the AS also offers: 1929 Vernon W. Saul 'The Vocabulary of Bums' (AS IV:5) 344: Sal or Sally-The Salvation Army However there is also this, from the Sydney (Aus.) Bulletin: 1885 Bulletin (Sydney) 16 May 12/3: Two Salvation Sallys were trotted out at Wanganui (N.Z.), recently, at the head of the local contingent, dressed in a style which gave old Nick spasms to such an extent that he incited a member of the 'foorce' to run them in on a charge of lunacy or something which if nothing else suggests that that 'Sally' abbreviation comes very eaerly on in the Army's existence. The more general Aus. name for SA workers was (and remains) 'the Salvos'. Early nicknames seem to have been less affectionate. J. Redding Ware 'Passing English of the Victorian Era' (1909) has Salvation jugginses (i.e. fools); Salvation rotters and Salvation soul-snakers, all dated 1882-3. Salavtion Army itself, in rhyming slang, meant 'barmy', i.e,. mad or drunk. >Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full >text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: I am told by a friend at the (London) Times Online that the full (searchable) text is indeed in preparation, funded by many Murdoch millions, but it is sadly not yet available. Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 12:14:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:14:38 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim > Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football > Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two > Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and > Sack Monkey: I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell got himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to refer to an African-American football player. Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect list? - Jim Landau From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Mon Oct 21 12:51:38 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:51:38 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rice_=E0_la_Malta?= Message-ID: Barry Popik cites: A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: "SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." This dessert is quite common in Sweden, more often in homes than in restaurants, and especially at Christmas. The name is considered to be a corruption of "Riz à l'amande": the dish used to be served with _one_ almond hidden in it, and the person who got the almond was supposed to get married within the coming year (cf. the French "Fève des Rois"). Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Oct 21 13:38:41 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:38:41 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: I got the above utterance from a sophisticated young woman, Michelle, age 23, just graduated in political science from the Univ. of Toronto who was being interviewed for an office assistant job. The provocation was my mentioning casually that, in 1971, an assistant editor got fired from her job because, during a dispute with her boss about the definition of "romance", she walked out of his office saying the boss's definition was "absurd." Michelle remarked the firing was anal! I added the editor would have kept her job if she had stayed on to give the boss a chance at rebuttal, tried to learn how words are defined for lexicographical as opposed to literary purposes, or used a less hostile adjective like "ridiculous" -- a suggestion made by another editor when she heard about the incident. Since I wasn't familiar with this use of "anal," I asked Michelle if she meant "anal retentive" or "anal expulsive." She was confused. I pressed on and asked if she meant "anal retentive" as in "Some anal retentive copy- editor wants me to use more commas," but that didn't seem to help either. Of course, "anal" seems an accepted short form, especially in informal situations. The average English user (call her "educated native speaker" if you will) doesn't have to know the origins of words to be able to use them idiomatically. And who wants to keep repeating "anal retentive" during an intellectual discussion that has turned anal? (Incidentally, Michelle has been hired on probation). But the "anal" question remains, especially as in the utterance above. "That is anal" has 279 hits on Google.ca, compared to "This is anal" with 339! I didn't even try "That's anal" because it is very difficult to determine from Google whether the sentences with "anal" in it end at that word or go on to illustrate other meanings as in "anal, vaginal, and oral sex." And when you try to investigate these usages all you get is pure pornography. Frustrating, isn't it. Investigating "anal retentive" is more rewarding. There are 33,000 cases of a-retentive, 360 a-expulsive, and voila! a new variant, a-compulsive. I first saw this used by someone called Betty Bowers correcting no less a person than Laura Bush. Please see below. I predict that "anal compulsive" is going to win out over the other variants in formal use although perhaps "anal" will have the upper hand in informal use. But what does "anal" really mean? The major desk dictionaries say "anal (retentive)" adj. means (not exact quotes): 1. having to do with personality traits such as meticulousness, avarice, and obstinacy (AHD) 2. having to do with personality traits such as parsimony, meticulousness, ill humor: _anal disposition, anal neatness._ (M-W) 3. meticulous and exacting, not lax or uninhibited: _Some anal retentive copy-editor wants me to use more commas._ (User's® Webster, 2002) 4. excessively orderly and fussy: _He's anal about things like that_ (Oxf. Dict. of English, 1998; New Oxf. Amer. Dict., 2001). All those personality traits, of course, are more negative than positive: avarice, being exacting, ill humor, meticulousness, obstinacy, parsimony, not being lax or uninhibited, etc. "Meticulousness" is the common thread in the four definitions, but is meticulousness more negative than positive? Some melioration of meaning, perhaps? Can "anal" in current English be defined as "meticulous," with an illustrative example like "Lexicographers by their very nature are anal"? Is that what young people like Michelle mean when they say "anal"? And how is "anal" USED idiomatically? A dictionary is supposed to provide formal definitions for everyday usages that call for an explanation, at least to some of us. But it seems an impossible task. That's why this lexicographer believes in eschewing formal definitions as much as possible and supplying representative samples of speech and writing from which one may gather the general sense for understanding as well as using the new words that come into our consciousness. Tom Paikeday (www.paikeday.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ SORRY, CHAPTER & VERSE OF THE FOLLOWING HAS BEEN OMITTED AS EASILY VERIFIABLE OR NOT VERY RELEVANT. [HEADING] Laura Bush demonstrates how recent scientific advances have made glass eyes undetectable [TEXT] Laura Bush: I also like Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov." Betty Bowers: I find its treatment of Jesus suspicious at best, dear, and your attachment to it alarming. Speaking of shocking habits when it comes to books, did you really Dewey-decimalize your entire private library, as I read in the paper? Laura: [capitals added] YES. SOME MAY FIND THAT A BIT ANAL - Betty: COMING FROM A WOMAN WHO CLOROXES HER BOOKSHELVES. NO, THAT'S NOT ANAL. THAT'S ANAL-_COMPULSIVE,_ DEAR [end of added capitals]. There is a difference. Let's talk hair, shall we? Hillary Clinton has had more hairstyles than Alec Baldwin's back, but you seem to have stuck with a decidedly 70's 'do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Phrase Finder Home Re: Anal Retentive - Origin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Posted by ESC on March 28, 2001 at 18:58:48: In Reply to: Re: Anal Retentive - Origin posted by R. Berg on March 27, 2001 at 21:48:55: : : : I believe the term refers to an infant who retains his/her excrement for fear of soiling his/her diaper. : : From memories of Psych 101 circa 1967: : : Parents who are very strict with their children when it comes to toilet training and who disapprove of soiling will produce an anal retentive offspring. This offspring person will be very neat and concerned about order and cleanliness. Any psych students out there to give more detail? : I'm not a psych student, but I've copy-edited lots of writings in psychology. In psychoanalytic theory, a cluster of traits grouped under the anal-retentive heading, including compulsiveness and miserliness, is said to result from conflicts experienced by a child at the stage when adults start demanding that the poop be put in the potty. : For a modified, updated, and intuition-friendly version of this theory, a good book is "Childhood and Society" by Erik Erikson. If I'd been harsh with my children regarding potty training, they would be neat and orderly? So that's where I went wrong! Does anyone remember the Saturday Night Live skit -- the Anal Retentive Chef? He never completed a recipe because he was obsessive about cubing the veggies just the right size, etc. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Oct 21 13:59:56 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:59:56 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: I think the current usage is as a synonym for "perfectionist" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 14:16:56 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:16:56 -0400 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys In-Reply-To: <103.1d780f04.2ae549ae@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:14 AM -0400 10/21/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > >> Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim >> Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football >> Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two >> Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and >> Sack Monkey: > >I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell Actually, it was closer to 20 years ago, in reference to Alvin Garrett as a "tough little monkey." >got >himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to >refer to an African-American football player. > >Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect >list? > I'm not sure it was the WORD that was politically incorrect, but its use to denote a human being. In this case, the various monkeys are (representations of) monkeys, not running backs or outfielders. L From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Oct 21 14:31:10 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:31:10 -0400 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My pragmatics are alarmed at the phrase "a sportcaster named Howard Cossell." Isn't that a little like "a religious figure named Jesus Christ" or "a fascist leader named Adolf Hitler"? dInIs >At 8:14 AM -0400 10/21/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >>writes: >> >>> Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim >>> Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football >>> Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal >>>Monkey, Two >>> Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and >>> Sack Monkey: >> >>I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell > >Actually, it was closer to 20 years ago, in reference to Alvin >Garrett as a "tough little monkey." > >>got >>himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to >>refer to an African-American football player. >> >>Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect >>list? >> >I'm not sure it was the WORD that was politically incorrect, but its >use to denote a human being. In this case, the various monkeys are >(representations of) monkeys, not running backs or outfielders. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM Mon Oct 21 14:53:39 2002 From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:53:39 -0500 Subject: "Rendition" Message-ID: Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism suspect is given over to the custody of another country for detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Do you "rendite" a suspect? ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 15:11:58 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:58 -0400 Subject: "Rendition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:53 AM -0500 10/21/02, Joyce, Thomas F. wrote: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to "render", but this one doesn't (yet). L >Do you "rendite" a suspect? > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 21 15:16:56 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:16:56 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" In-Reply-To: <00d301c27907$2c3814c0$0664e440@co611769a> Message-ID: >Michelle remarked the firing was anal! Without having the acquaintance of Michelle, one cannot be certain of the meaning. But I don't think the story supports "anal" = "fussy". If it were "The boss fired her for splitting an infinitive; the boss's behavior was anal[-retentive]", OK; but "The boss fired her for rudeness; the boss's behavior was anal" calls for a different interpretation. I would suggest a superficial interpretation: just as "The boss behaved like an ass" > "The firing was asinine", one can have "The boss behaved like an asshole" > "The firing was anal". This is not an unknown usage; in fact I've encountered "anal" more often than "assholish" as the adjective corresponding to "asshole" although both are infrequent in my experience. This interpretation would be in line with Michelle's confusion at the questions about meticulousness ... and perhaps she does not wish to explain by applying the word "asshole" to the boss during her job interview? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 21 15:18:23 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:18:23 -0400 Subject: "Rendition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Do you "rendite" a suspect? "Render", I think. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 15:25:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:25:59 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey (Oct. 11th story) Message-ID: Here's the "rally monkey" story that was on AP and Yahoo! and all over the place, from October 11th: Toy monkeys have replaced Mickey Mouse as the most popular plush celebrity in town, where the Anaheim Angels face the Minnesota Twins in the AL championship series this weekend. The Rally Monkey has become the unofficial team mascot. ``You kind of liken him to a baseball role player. He only comes out when he's needed,'' Angels' entertainment manager Peter Bull said. ``Ultimately, the Rally Monkey is the belief that we can come back.'' The Angels are owned by The Walt Disney Co., but none of the studio's creatures ever became allied with the team. That paved the way for this monkey business. Rally Monkey was born on June 6, 2000, on the stadium's giant video monitor, when the Angels were playing San Francisco. Trailing in the sixth inning, the Angels' staff played some video from the 1994 movie ``Ace Ventura, Pet Detective'' that featured a monkey jumping up and down. Then they flashed the words ``Rally Monkey'' on the screen. The crowd roared, the team went on to win -- and the monkey became the mascot. Today, fans haul Rally Monkeys to the stadium and keep them under wraps unless they are needed. Then they pop up everywhere -- out of pockets, purses and from under hats. Rally Monkey has become so popular, he's appeared on ESPN, had a banana drink named after him and even spawned a Web site where devotees can post messages. The monkey's success has even spawned knockoffs, including the Indianapolis Colts' ``Touchdown Monkey.'' Building on the appeal, the Angels filmed ads featuring Katie, a white-faced capuchin monkey featured on NBC's ``Friends'' and in the movie ``Outbreak.'' Katie was replaced this year by Abbie, a 6-year-old capuchin monkey who held the ``Rally Time'' sign during the Angels' pivotal comeback in Game 3 of their first-round series against the Yankees. The monkey went 27-11 this season in games when the Angels trailed. The monkey's lifetime record is 57-41. ``He doesn't go beyond his boundaries. He has a time and a place to come out, and he does when he's needed,'' Bull said. The Angels' staff tried bringing a live monkey to Edison Field. But the Angels lost, prompting pitcher Jarrod Washburn to accuse management of ``making a mockery of the game.'' Minnesota center fielder Torii Hunter even admitted Rally Monkey is a ``star.'' ``Every time we go to their place, in the eighth or ninth inning, they always have a movie with him in it,'' Hunter said. ``I forget I'm playing, I crack up. I turn and watch the whole show.'' On the Net: http://www.rallymonkey.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 15:43:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:43:14 EDT Subject: Kringle (before 1839) Message-ID: Another gem from the BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database? DARE has "kirngle" ("A usu. sweet, flaky pastry, often with fruit or nut filling, that is usu. formed into a ring or a pretzel-like shape") from only 1950. John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK states: "It is a specialty of the Wisconsin city of Racine, whose nickname is Kringleville because of its large Danish immigrant population, who called cookies and tea cakes made with butter 'kringle." Mariani regurgitates DARE's ridiculously late "1950" date. This citation from the database doesn't have a date, but the writer died in 1839: ...kind as a Sully-Lunn, which was not then known, and another kind of cake which was then greatly in request, and is rarely met with now, a roll of dough of a thickness to be cut in half, buttered hot, or very good eaten plain; bread of all sorts; rolls, English, French and German; Kringles, German cake, &c., and eggs, neither meat nor fish being then introduced as appertaining to breakfast. Papendiek, Charlotte Louise Henrietta Albert, 1765-1839, MEMOIR OF CHARLOTTE LOUISE HENRIETTA ALBERT PAPENDIECK in COURT AND PRIVATE LIFE IN THE TIME OF QUEEN CHARLOTTE: BEING JOURNALS OF MRS. PAPENDIECK, ASSISTANT KEEPER OF THE WARDROBE AND READER, TO HER MAJESTY, V. 2. Broughton, Mrs. Vernon Delves, ed., London, England: Bentley && Son, 1887, pp. 309. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 21 15:50:04 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:50:04 -0700 Subject: Rally Monkey (Oct. 11th story) In-Reply-To: <94.2e99d50d.2ae57687@aol.com> Message-ID: I assumed that the rally monkey was take-off of David Letterman's various monkeys (I recall a Late Night Mankey Cam or somehting like that.) Any proof of a connection with Letterman? Ed --- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Here's the "rally monkey" story that was on AP and > Yahoo! and all over the > place, from October 11th: > > > > Toy monkeys have replaced Mickey Mouse as the most > popular plush celebrity in > town, where the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/ana/">Anaheim > Angels face the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/min/">Minnesota > Twins in the AL > championship series this weekend. The Rally Monkey > has become the unofficial > team mascot. ``You kind of liken him to a baseball > role player. He only comes > out when he's needed,'' Angels' entertainment > manager Peter Bull said. > ``Ultimately, the Rally Monkey is the belief that we > can come back.'' The > Angels are owned by The Walt Disney Co., but none of > the studio's creatures > ever became allied with the team. That paved the way > for this monkey > business. Rally Monkey was born on June 6, 2000, on > the stadium's giant video > monitor, when the Angels were playing San Francisco. > Trailing in the sixth > inning, the Angels' staff played some video from the > 1994 movie ``Ace > Ventura, Pet Detective'' that featured a monkey > jumping up and down. Then > they flashed the words ``Rally Monkey'' on the > screen. The crowd roared, the > team went on to win -- and the monkey became the > mascot. Today, fans haul > Rally Monkeys to the stadium and keep them under > wraps unless they are > needed. Then they pop up everywhere -- out of > pockets, purses and from under > hats. Rally Monkey has become so popular, he's > appeared on ESPN, had a banana > drink named after him and even spawned a Web site > where devotees can post > messages. The monkey's success has even spawned > knockoffs, including the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/ind/"> > Indianapolis Colts' ``Touchdown Monkey.'' > Building on the appeal, the Angels > filmed ads featuring Katie, a white-faced capuchin > monkey featured on NBC's > ``Friends'' and in the movie ``Outbreak.'' Katie was > replaced this year by > Abbie, a 6-year-old capuchin monkey who held the > ``Rally Time'' sign during > the Angels' pivotal comeback in Game 3 of their > first-round series against > the Yankees. The monkey went 27-11 this season in > games when the Angels > trailed. The monkey's lifetime record is 57-41. ``He > doesn't go beyond his > boundaries. He has a time and a place to come out, > and he does when he's > needed,'' Bull said. The Angels' staff tried > bringing a live monkey to Edison > Field. But the Angels lost, prompting pitcher HREF="http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/5/5995/">Jarrod > Washburn to accuse > management of ``making a mockery of the game.'' > Minnesota center fielder HREF="http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/5/5884/"> > Torii Hunter even admitted Rally Monkey is a > ``star.'' ``Every time we go to > their place, in the eighth or ninth inning, they > always have a movie with him > in it,'' Hunter said. ``I forget I'm playing, I > crack up. I turn and watch > the whole show.'' On the Net: http://www.rallymonkey.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM Mon Oct 21 16:24:40 2002 From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:24:40 -0500 Subject: "Rendition" Message-ID: I suppose it must be so. But if anybody starts talking about rendering a suspect, I will have visions of boiling vats. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:12 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Rendition" At 9:53 AM -0500 10/21/02, Joyce, Thomas F. wrote: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to "render", but this one doesn't (yet). L >Do you "rendite" a suspect? > ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 17:31:28 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:31:28 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: <1e.768cb4.2ae4f624@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # This is the only "Churkendoose" trademark I could find. It's certainly #not the first citation. "Turducken" follows: I remember it from a children's book. A CHicken's egg that was sat on for hatching by a tURKey, a hEN, a Duck, and a gOOSE -- or something like that. Anyone else remember it? Bcc-ing my wife the librarian. -- Mark A. Mandel From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 18:10:18 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:10:18 -0400 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) In-Reply-To: <157.1631c29b.2ae4ee0c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation > Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). > We can do better than that. Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full > text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: Yes, it is available, but currently only covers 1930-51. And I don't think the Times of London is likely to be a great source for slang vocabulary. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 18:11:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:11:54 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (1947) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 7 December 1947, pg. 92: From Decca comes a twelve-inch unbreakable disk bearing _The Churkendoose_, with Ray Bolger as the narrator. It is the kind of wildly unbelievable story that children, I suppose, believe and like. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 21 18:21:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:21:09 -0700 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, October 21, 2002 1:31 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > > I remember it [i.e. churkendoose--PMc] from a children's book. A CHicken's egg that was sat on > for hatching by a tURKey, a hEN, a Duck, and a gOOSE -- or something > like that. Anyone else remember it? > Yes--from a children's record back in the late 40s or early 50s, which I probably heard played on the Big John and Sparky radio program. The record may have been based on a book, but I never saw the book. The message of the story was tolerance. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:00:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:00:44 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (1946); In Like Flynn Message-ID: CHURKENDOOSE From OCLC Worldcat: Title: This is the story of the churkendoose; part-chicken, turkey, duck, and goose / Author(s): Berenberg, Ben Ross. ; Cunningham, Dellwyn. Publication: New York : Wonder Books, Year: 1946 Description: [20] p., col. ill., 21 cm. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Animals -- Fiction. Note(s): 1974 printing. Class Descriptors: Dewey: 813.54 Other Titles: Churkendoose Responsibility: By Ben Ross Berenberg. The pictures are by Dellwyn Cunningham. Material Type: Fiction (fic); Juvenile audience (jau) Document Type: Book Entry: 20021003 Update: 20021003 Accession No: OCLC: 50728569 Database: WorldCat --------------------------------------------------------------- IN LIKE FLYNN "In like Flynn" was discussed in the FYI column, City section, of last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES. Do people still ask such moldy questions anymore? I guess they do. The TIMES attributes it to Boss Flynn, not to Errol Flynn. The TIMES seems pretty sure of itself, but it's very curious that no scholar is cited, nor any scholarly work. The first "in like Flynn" citation is not in the RHHDAS, but right here on ADS-L, posted by me, from the Peter Tamony collection. As usual, I was not contacted. (NOTE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES: I live here!) A check of the NEW YORK TIMES full text shows no "in like Flynn" hit before the extremely late date of 1958. So I'm still dubious of the Bronx boss origin. It is possible that FLYNN'S DETECTIVE WEEKLY used the term. This was a popular magazine in the 1920s and 1930s. Until we turn up a definitive citation, I wouldn't be as sure as FYI is. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Oct 21 19:01:07 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:01:07 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rice_=E0_la_Malta?= In-Reply-To: <002b01c27900$9bb53460$eb1442d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: And the rice should be cooked with lots of milk, right? and for hours if possible! At least that's the way we cooked it in Minnesota. I still cook it at Christmas, and yes, I put in the one almond too, even though my one and only child never quite gets married even though he always (by my design) finds the almond. . . . At 02:51 PM 10/21/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Barry Popik cites: >A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: >"SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I >came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." > >This dessert is quite common in Sweden, more often in homes than in >restaurants, and especially at Christmas. The name is considered to be a >corruption of "Riz à l'amande": the dish used to be served with _one_ >almond hidden in it, and the person who got the almond was supposed to get >married within the coming year (cf. the French "Fève des Rois"). > >Jan Ivarsson >jan.ivarsson at transedit.st >http://www.transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:14:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:14:36 -0400 Subject: Sally Ann=Salvation Army (1921) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 18 December 1921, pg. 85: The Salvation Army will have its three homelike stations, with "Sally Ann's" morning cup of coffee, decorated and made gay with Christmas greens, and will hold services with Chirstmas music. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:41:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:41:45 -0400 Subject: DWI (1950); DUI (1969) Message-ID: This is a little better. Again, it's Monday, and the NYPL is closed. 21 June 1950, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 16: Because a charge of driving while intoxicated--or a DWI charge, as the police call it--is often impossible to prove in court unless it's backed up by evidence from a chemical test. 26 October 1969, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM54: A black man from Sweetport, La., named Edward Green, was even more surprised to find himself arrested on a D.U.I. charge (driving under the influence) by a black officer in Mississippi and fined a crushing $113. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 20:32:42 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:32:42 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: <662270.1035199269@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #Yes--from a children's record back in the late 40s or early 50s, which I #probably heard played on the Big John and Sparky radio program. The record #may have been based on a book, but I never saw the book. The message of #the story was tolerance. Maybe it was a record, not a book. I was a kid then and I had my very own little record player. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 20:34:58 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) (fwd) Message-ID: >From my wife the librarian, and here bcc-ed back to her. Thanks, dear! -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:37:12 -0400 Turducken is a Cajun recipe in which one is stuffed inside another, etc. The citation for Churkendoose is Berenberg, Ben Ross. This is the Story of the Churkendoose, Part Chicken, Turkey, Duck and Goose .Illus. Dellwyn Cunningham, Wonder Books.New York, 1946. This tells the story of an egg. The fowl can't remember who laid it, and take turns sitting on it until it hatches. The resulting creature is quite strange looking, and is teased by the other farm creatures. He replies in verse: Does the green grass ask the sky so blue, I'm green why aren't you green too. A rose smells sweet cause it's a flower, An onion smells strong, a pickle is sour. They're different yet they get along, And no one seems to think it wrong. Chicken, turkey, duck or goose, Can't there be a churkendoose? It depends on how you look at things, It depends on how you look at things, Is the baby chimpanzee any prettier than me It all depends upon, begins and ends upon, It all depends on how you look at things. Eventually, he saves the day when a fox heads to the coop and is so startled by the Churkendoose's appearance that the fox runs away. Personally, I do not believe foxes are quite so analytical. Ray Bolger made a recording of the story. The book is out of print, but used copies are available at Amazon at prices ranging from $20-$60. May be less at other outlets. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 01:13:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:13:50 -0400 Subject: Cevapcici (1939) Message-ID: We discussed "cevapcici" just two months ago, in August. I just found it by accident, and I'll post it before I drop sound asleep. From NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, June 1939, pg. 319, col. 2 (in an article about Yugoslovia): At native restaurants down on the bank of the Vardar one can order sheep's liver grilled on a skewer, or that delectable titbit of meat called _cevapcici_ (small round hamburgers), which the French officers during the war liked but couldn't pronounce. (OED has only one hit, for "cevabcici" in 1959. On Merriam-Webster online, there is no "cevapcici" hit; it asks you if you meant to type "speakeasy"--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 22 01:03:55 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:03:55 -0500 Subject: Stent Message-ID: The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled . However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central Indiana? Herb Stahlke From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 03:43:49 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:43:49 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Herbert Stahlke wrote: >The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat >angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this >I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the >word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled >. However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger >areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central >Indiana? I'm pretty sure that here in Connecticut I've only heard [stEnt]. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 05:44:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:44:01 EDT Subject: Maltese food; Tipping (1990) Message-ID: O.T. JAMES OSSUARY Just as I return from Malta (after following in the footsteps of St. Paul), it's announced (Biblical Archaeology Review, NY Times, CNN, Drudge Report, Reuters) that a first century ossuary has been discovered. The inscription is of "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." If true, this would be our earliest Jesus document (63 A. D.). I don't know. The thing doesn't come from a recent dig. It's been around for 2,000 years and no one read the inscription before? I have to solve everything in every language? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TIPPING IS NOT A CITY IN CHINA 31 August 1990, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C1: Other signs spread witty, sometimes peace-love slogans like "Have a nice day" and "Tipping is not a city in China." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MALTESE FOOD 11 March 1962, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX16: Freshly caught fish is delicious, and the special "Lampuki" fish pie must be tasted. TImpana is an elaborate macaroni and liver combination baked inside a luscious crust. Country-style rabbit and spaghetti is served at its best in country restaurants. (...) "Rikotta," a creamy cheese made of sheep's milk, is used in the hot, flaky cheese cakes served in all cafes, a very special Maltese treat that should not be missed. 28 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX39: In many towns, small anonymous restaurants, bearing only the sign "Maltese Dishes," feature such local delicacies as _timpana_, a tasty macaroni pie; another pie made from _lampuki_, a local fish, and the national specialty, stewed rabbit and spaghetti. THE DEFINITIVE(LY) GOOD GUIDE TO RESTAURANTS IN MALTA AND GOZO 2001 Rabat, Malta: The Definitive(ly) Good Guide Co. Ltd. (info at restaurantsmalta.com) (No copyright date. 2000?--ed.) Pg. 41: _Maltese Food_ (...) _ Soups (Sopop)_ Broad bean soup (Kuksu)... Fish soup (Aljotta)... Widow's soup (Soppa ta' l-Armla)... Pg. 42: Vegetable soup (Minestra)... _Pasta (Ghagin)_ Macaroni in pastry (Timpana)... Spaghetti with rabbit sauce (Fenkata)... _Pies (Torta)_ Cheese cakes and Pea cakes (Pastizzi)... Spinach and Ricotta pie (Torta ta' l-Irkotta u Spinaci)... Lampuki pie (Torta tal-Lampuki)... Pg. 44: _Meat (Laham)_ Beef olives (Bragjoli)... Fried rabbit (Fenek moqli)... A Rabbit feast (Fenkata)... Beef Stew (Stuffat tal-Laham)... Roast Stuffed Chicken (Tigiega Mimlija)... Pg. 45: Snail Salad (Bebbux)... _Vegetable dishes (Haxix)_ Broad beans with garlic (Ful bit-tewm... Stuffed Globe Artichokes (Qacog Mimli)... Stuffed Green Peppers (Bzar Ahdar Mimli)... Stuffed Marrows and Aubergines (Qargha Baghli Mimli, Bringiel Mimli)... Cabbage (Kabocci)... Pg. 46: Stuffed olives (Zebbug mimli)... Broad Bean Paste (Bigilla)... Cauliflowers with Goat's Cheese (Pastard bil Gbejniet)... _Fish (Hut)_ Bogue (Vopa)... Sea Bream (Pagru)...Pandora and Red Bream (Pagella Hamra and tal-Gargi)... Pg. 48: Dentex (Dantici)... Sea Bass (Spnotta)... Grouper (Cerna)... Stone bass, wreckfish (Dott)... Transparent Goby (Makku)... John Dory (Pesce San Pietro)... Scorpion fish (Skorfna)... Pg. 49: Hake (Marluzz)... Garfish (Imsell)... Amberjack (Accola. Cervjola when young)... Dolphin fish (Lampuka)... (I have many other Maltese cookbooks here, but that'll do for now. I have to judge other New Yorkers and find them guilty without due process tomorrow, but on Wednesday I'll look up some Maltese dictionaries, HOLIDAY magazine, and TRAVEL magazine, and try to get better dates for "pastizzi" and "qassatat" and "bragioli." Surprisingly, I couldn't find a single "pastizzi" in the pre-1986 NEW YORK TIMES--ed.) From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 22 07:01:21 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:01:21 -0700 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: >... However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger >areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central >Indiana? Yes, stEnt most everywhere there is no merger of /In/ /En/ Rima From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 22 13:08:24 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:08:24 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: I have only heard [stEnt], myself (always outside of Central Indiana). Ben From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 22 13:08:53 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:08:53 -0400 Subject: the name of Jesus in Aramaic Message-ID: We discussed this last month; "Yeshua" is the transliteration--from today's NY Times: >The words, in Aramaic, "Ya'akov bar Yosef akhui diYeshua," were carved on a >burial box, known as an ossuary, which presumably once held the bones of a >man named James who died in the first century A.D. For a "biography" of James, the brother of Jesus, see the book by that name by Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Robert Eisenmanm. Eisenmann identifies James as Jesus' successor in the nascent 'Christian' branch of Judaism and as the James the Just found in the scrolls. A.D. 63 would be right for his murder, on the temple steps, by stoning. James' branch kept Mosaic law and were in direct competition with Paul's branch which welcomed 'gentile' converts. With James's death the way was clear for Paul's branch of Christianity to prosper, especially after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Eisenmann notes the contemporary belief that the temple's destruction was God's punishment for the death of James the Just. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 22 14:07:38 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:07:38 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Herbert Stahlke wrote: #The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat #angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this #I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the #word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled #. However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger #areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central #Indiana? Yup. That's the only pronunciation I've ever heard. (Massachusetts and national radio.) -- Mark A. Mandel From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 22 14:15:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:15:01 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: There were other kinds of stents before coronary artery stents: it seems to me that (e.g.) ureteral stents have been used and so named since pre-1980 but I may be misremembering. The word in this sense ("tube") seems to be relatively new, and I don't know whether the etymology is firm. M-W Collegiate (Web) doesn't show the word at all; OED on-line apparently doesn't either (although it may be that the word is an extension of the word for a mold for tissue grafting, OED's n.(5)). RHUD and AHD4 show it. There is a spelling and pronunciation alternative "stint" which in my experience is a minority variant ... but maybe it's the majority variant in some specialties or geographic regions. This explains the pronunciation /stInt/ by non-mergers. Possibly the variant "stint" exists by virtue of early use by merging folks, though, especially if the etymology is truly from an English dentist's surname Stent. M-W Third shows both "stent" and "stint" (1961) in reference to a mold. There is a verb form [e.g. "stent the artery", "stent the ureter"] which is reminiscent of the Scots verb "stent" meaning "stretch"/"fix"/"stiffen"/"distend", so I wonder whether the etymology is really clear. Maybe the medical use started as "I'll stent the duct with this catheter to avoid anastomotic stricture" or so, and then the catheter was called a stent, independent of the earlier use with reference to a mold or a tissue impression? (Just wild conjecture.) -- Doug Wilson From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 22 15:59:08 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:59:08 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: Thanks Doug, David Bergdahl. Now that Michelle has got the job, I'll certainly explore her meaning further. The problem I have with a synonym like "perfectionist" (n. & adj.) is, is it substitutable for "anal" in idiomatic utterances? Regards. TOM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:16 AM Subject: Re: "That's anal!" > >Michelle remarked the firing was anal! > > Without having the acquaintance of Michelle, one cannot be certain of the > meaning. But I don't think the story supports "anal" = "fussy". If it were > "The boss fired her for splitting an infinitive; the boss's behavior was > anal[-retentive]", OK; but "The boss fired her for rudeness; the boss's > behavior was anal" calls for a different interpretation. > > I would suggest a superficial interpretation: just as "The boss behaved > like an ass" > "The firing was asinine", one can have "The boss behaved > like an asshole" > "The firing was anal". This is not an unknown usage; in > fact I've encountered "anal" more often than "assholish" as the adjective > corresponding to "asshole" although both are infrequent in my experience. > > This interpretation would be in line with Michelle's confusion at the > questions about meticulousness ... and perhaps she does not wish to explain > by applying the word "asshole" to the boss during her job interview? > > -- Doug Wilson From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Oct 22 19:05:32 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:05:32 +0200 Subject: Stent Message-ID: The Swedish National Encyclopedia says: "stent (after British dentist Charles R. Stent, d. 1885), originally mold or imprint made in a soft material which then hardens, e.g. dental imprint. The term now applies to tube structures in plastic or metal, which during an operation of a stricture is placed in a blood vessel or other cavity to prevent the stricture from recurring." (My translation) Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 19:25:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:37 -0400 Subject: Antedatings of "Deconstruction" and Related Terms In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021020183203.02dc94d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: deconstruct (OED 1973) 1969 Jacques Derrida in _Philosophy and Phenomenological Research_ XXX. 53 But the thought of this presence only metaphorizes, by a profound necessity which cannot be escaped by a simple decision, the language it deconstructs. deconstruction (OED, b., 1973) 1969 Jacques Derrida in _Philosophy and Phenomenological Research_ XXX. 56 It also goes without saying that the choice between these two forms of deconstruction cannot be a simple and unique one. deconstructionism (OED 1980) 1975 _Diacritics_ Summer 23 But structuralism (in literature) has led to de-constructionism and to a vigorous critique of positivism and Western metaphysics. deconstructive (OED 1977) 1972 _Boundary 2_ I. 84 Heidegger is Derrida's primary example of the deconstructive philosopher (along with Nietzsche and Freud). deconstructionist (OED 1982) 1976 _PMLA_ XCI. (adv't) One of the most exciting of these [issues] centered on the kind of deconstructionist criticism practiced brilliantly in America by J. Hillis Miller. 1977 _Boundary 2_ V. 364 In literary interpretation, one finds efforts to move beyond formalism and merely rhetorical criticism -- speech act theory as the basis for a new criticism, new literary history, and more recently "deconstructionist" theories of language and text. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 20:08:58 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:08:58 -0400 Subject: More on "Deconstructionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: deconstructionism (OED 1980) 1978 _College Composition and Communication_ XXIX. 333 These abstruse days of hermeneutics, semiotics, structuralism, deconstructionism, and transformational grammar. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 22:31:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:31:16 EDT Subject: DailyCandy Lexicon IV Message-ID: Gosh, is this lame. From today's www.dailycandy.com: DailyCandy Lexicon IV If you've been a DailyCandy subscriber for a while, you know the drill. Lexicons. We love words almost as much as we love food, fashion, and fun. If you're new to the game, allow us to debrief you. So enthusiastic were the responses to Lexicon installments I, II, and III that we keep a file of words we pick up along the way as well as words we create when we see the lack of a better word out there. (Like "stray." Stray? C'mon, like you don't know one. A stray is the term for a straight man who everyone secretly believes is gay.) So without further ado, we present the DailyCandy Lexicon IV: drailing: E-mailing when drunk -- i.e., drunk e-mailing mego: The drugged-out sensation one gets when poring over spreadsheets or instruction manuals; acronym for "my eyes glaze over" ranky: Gross, nasty; hybrid term -- raunchy meets skanky gu: Pronounced "goo;" acronym for "geographically undesirable." (Great guy and all, but totally gu -- he lives all the way in Boerum Hill!) mousewife: Male Housewife From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 00:37:13 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a question for Jesse and Barry and anyone else on the list: Does anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the antiquity of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:09:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:09:29 EDT Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) Message-ID: This is David Bowie's "Suffragette City." Sorry if the lyrics appear smushed: Hey man, oh leave me alone you knowHey man, oh Henry, get off the phone, I gottaHey man, I gotta straighten my faceThis mellow thighed chick just put my spine out of placeHey man, my schooldays insaneHey man, my work's down the drainHey man, well she's a total blam-blamShe said she had to squeeze it but she... then she...(CHORUS)Oh don't lean on me man, cause you can't afford the ticketI'm back on Suffragette CityOh don't lean on me manCause you ain't got time to check itYou know my Suffragette CityIs outta sight...she's all rightHey man, Henry, don't be unkind, go awayHey man, I can't take you this time, no wayHey man, droogie don't crash hereThere's only room for one and here she comes, here she comesCHORUSOh hit me! CHORUSA Suffragette City, a Suffragette CityI'm back on Suffragette City, I'm back on Suffragette CityOoo, Sufraggete city, ooo, Suffragette CityOooh-how, Sufragette City, oooh-how, Sufragette City, oooh-howSufragetteOhhh, Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 02:12:10 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:12:10 -0400 Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) In-Reply-To: <1aa.ab809ac.2ae75ed9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is David Bowie's "Suffragette City." Sorry if the lyrics appear > smushed: Thanks, but I already knew about the Bowie lyrics. I guess I should have framed my question more precisely: is there any evidence of pre-Bowie usage? I'm guessing the phrase was around before this. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:16:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:16:09 EDT Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) Message-ID: Maybe we can ask David Bowie himself. He used to be a contributor to this list! :-) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:43:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:43:22 EDT Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives Message-ID: Bowie's song is from 1976. See the old ADS-L archives, where you can read this: ADS-L: Archive Search Results Date Sent: Thursday, August 27, 1998 (...) WHAM, BAM, THANK YOU, MA'AM I posted here that the "Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am" in DINAH WAS (the Off-Broadway Dinah Washington musical, allegedly spoken around 1945) was an anachronism.This is from WorldCat: 1940--A fox trot by Paul Whiteman ("king of jazz") was "Wham: wham, re, bop,boom, bam." 1948-1953--The album I'LL SAIL MY SHIP ALONE: RAMBLIN' JIMMIE DOLAN (1994) recorded in these years contains "Wham! Bam! Thank you Ma'am!" 1956-1961--The album THE ART OF CHARLES MINGUS (1973) recorded in these years contains "Wham bam thank you ma'am." 1965--The album FINDING A NEW FRIEND by Oscar Brown, Jr. and Luiz Henrique contains "Wham! Bam! Thank you ma'am!" 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was published. 1969--The album THE AUTUMN STONE by Small Faces has the song "Wham bam thank you mam." 1994--WHAM BAM, THANK YOU GLAM! is the title of a music compilation. From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 23 03:09:01 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:09:01 -0400 Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives In-Reply-To: <142.101f902.2ae766ca@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: [...] > 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was > published. That should be "Troy Conway", a pseudonym of Michael Avallone, an enormously productive writer in various genres. I recently bought a copy of _The Cunning Linguist,_ which I had to buy based on the title alone. It's a wonderfully enjoyable "adult" novel--No. 20 in the "Coxeman" series--featuring a James Bondesque hero, and a terrific period cover with a Roger Moore type kissing two microskirted, go-go-booted hotties who hold large phallic handguns. 1970 for this one; _Wham! Bam!_ was an earlier effort in this series. Jesse Sheidlower OED From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Wed Oct 23 03:41:35 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:41:35 -0400 Subject: Cunning Linguist In-Reply-To: <20021023030901.GA20833@panix.com> Message-ID: Of course, the term 'cunning linguist' was actually used in a recent James Bond movie. It was the second scene of Tomorrow Never Dies (1997): Moneypenny: "James? Where are you?" Bond: "Oh, Moneypenny. I'm just up here at Oxford brushing up on a little Danish." Danish: "Little?" Moneypenny: "I'm afraid you're going to have to kiss off your lesson James." ... Bond: (Something in Danish) Moneypenny: "You always were a cunning linguist James." Philip At 11:09 PM -0400 10/22/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >[...] >> 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was >> published. > >That should be "Troy Conway", a pseudonym of Michael Avallone, an >enormously productive writer in various genres. > >I recently bought a copy of _The Cunning Linguist,_ which I had to >buy based on the title alone. It's a wonderfully enjoyable "adult" >novel--No. 20 in the "Coxeman" series--featuring a James Bondesque >hero, and a terrific period cover with a Roger Moore type kissing >two microskirted, go-go-booted hotties who hold large phallic >handguns. 1970 for this one; _Wham! Bam!_ was an earlier effort in >this series. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 04:16:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:16:35 EDT Subject: Food Festivals, U.S.A. (2002) Message-ID: FOOD FESTIVALS, U.S.A. 250 RED, WHITE & BLUE RIBBON RECIPES FROM ALL 50 STATES by Becky Mercuri San Diego: Laurel Glen 430 pages, paperback, $24.95 April 2002 Amazon.com has this as a book to buy with ROADFOOD (2002). It should have been an interesting book to explore American regional cuisine, but I think it fumbles a great topic. Two people on Amazon, both named "a reader," grade the book "four stars." It looks suspicious. "A reader from New Jersey" calls this book "An Encyclopedia of American food"..There is a short forward by food writer John T. Edge...First-time author Mercuri claims that she owns 7,000 cookbooks. The food festivals are listed, there is a blurb for each ("XXX is the Apple/Orange/Raisin/Shrimp/Blueberry Capital of the U.S."), and there is a recipe for each. Very little food history is given. The apple/orange/raisin/shrimp/blueberry recipes can better be found on the web. The festivals themselves can better be found on the web--with up-to-date info. This book strangely acts as if the web doesn't exist! In the "DIRECTORY OF FESTIVALS BY STATE" at the end of the book, the mailing addresses and telephone numbers are given. Not a single food festival has a web site?? A huge number of "food festivals" aren't here. New York City, for example, has no food festivals at all? What about that international food "street fair" that they hold every year? And what about the annual July 4th Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contests? What about the food contests/events held every year at state fairs? What exactly is a "food festival"? Pg. 402, for example, includes the "Race to Bake the Biggest Apple Pie"--not a "food festival," even admittedly not so by the author. There's a poor, greatly reduced "food festival" selection contained here. There's also no bibliography. This entire book was written at least twice before. You can check Amazon for GOURMET FOOD AND WINE FESTIVALS OF NORTH AMERICA (1986) by Carol Spivak and Richard Weinstock, and FOOD FESTIVAL: THE ULTIMATE GUIDEBOOK TO AMERICA'S BEST REGIONAL FOOD CELEBRATIONS (1994) by Alice M. Cohen and Carole Berglie, and FOOD FESTIVAL: EATING YOUR WAY FROM COAST TO COAST (1997) by Barbara Carlson. A large number of interesting food festival titles have been published recently, such as FOOD FESTIVALS OF NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, FOOD FESTIVALS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, FOOD FESTIVALS OF TEXAS, CALIFORNIA FOOD FESTIVALS COOKBOOK, and WISCONSIN FOOD FESTIVALS. Again, there is no bibliography to tell you this. Food TV (www.foodtv.com) has a program called "All American Festivals." The web site has a discussion board. The tv program is never mentioned. To summarize: the book misses the potential of the topic. I can't tell you whether it's worth the $24.95 to you, but you can get all this for free, and get it better, on the web. Unlike ROADFOOD, I can't think of a single regional food blurb worthy of sharing here on ADS-L. And that was the purpose of the book, as the author bio declares on page 429: "With the homogenization of the American palate, the food historian in Becky wanted to capture America's rich cultural and ethnic diversity as embodied in the foods of our forebears. The results are well worth it and we believe that Becky's warmth and wit shine through the pages of her book, which are a culinary travelogue of our great country's distinctive foodways. The recipes are unique, innovative, traditional, ethnic, and delicious!" INTERESTING O.T.: Pg. IX ACKNOWLEDGMENTS (...) My agent, Meredith Bernstein, who immediately believed in this book and who bravely and competently promoted a new author. Meredith Bernstein! MEREDITH BERNSTEIN!!!!!! In October 2001, I had a pre-Yom Kippur dinner with my sister and Meredith Bernstein's mom. I was told to submit my stuff to Meredith Bernstein, who would listen to my book ideas. So I said, post 9-11, that I'd like to write a New York CIty book on "the Big Apple," as only I can. It would go well beyond and utterly destroy Robert Hendrickson's NEW YORK TALK and Irving Lewis Allen's CITY IN SLANG. I also mentioned that I've done enormous and original work on food history, and I'd like to do a book on food etymologies. (I signed on to THE OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD two months later.) Meredith Bernstein wouldn't talk to me at all. She quickly returned all of my stuff, saying tersely that she had no idea what I had in mind. Whatever it was, it wasn't for her! And now we have a pedestrian, been-there-before, instantly forgettable book called FOOD FESTIVALS, USA (2002). Meredith Bernstein!!!! From slangman at PACBELL.NET Wed Oct 23 05:26:31 2002 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:26:31 -0700 Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives Message-ID: My earliest citation for the New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English is: "[W]hat was your plot - to hop in bed with me, hop right out again, and get home before Grace does? Wham, bam, thank you ma'am?" Shulman, Max. Rally Round the Flag, Boys! Garden City New York: Doubleday & Company, 1957, p. 104. Tom Dalzell > > From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 23 05:43:56 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:43:56 -0400 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asks, >> Does anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the >> antiquity of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? Chapman's New Dictionary of American Slang says WWII, armed forces. I'd call that semisolid. (Oxford slang dictionary says early '70s. WAY off. Maybe it took 25 years to get to the UK.) --Dodi Schultz From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:25:38 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:25:38 -0500 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro wrote: > > Here is a question for Jesse and Barry and anyone else on the list: Does > anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the antiquity > of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? > > Fred Shapiro I'm pretty sure I heard it as part of a joke ca. 1950. I'm dead certain I heard it repeatedly while I was in the army, 1951-1953. The joke starts by describing a happy jackrabbit bouncing through the forest, screwing every bunny he found in record time and saying "wham bam thank you ma'am" as he bounced off to find a new conquest. The denoument went something like this: Then the jackrabbit came to a garden with an iron statue of a bunny. He tried to do his thing, but staggered away saying "wham bam GODDAMN, ma'am!" All right, it wasn't very funny -- but it usually got a laugh anyhow. I don't recall hearing the phrase applied to the effect of driving over potholes, or its derivative application to potholes themselves, until the 1980s. There was a parallel story about a bear running through the forest saying "I'm a ready teddy" until he hit on a bear statue -- after which he said "I'm a ruined bruin". -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:26:53 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:26:53 -0500 Subject: Cunning Linguist Message-ID: In 1966-67, IIRC, I was offered an appointment in the anthropology department at Brooklyn College. They wanted a social anthropologist who could teach some courses in linguistic anthro, and I qualified. (Besides that, an old friend was on the search committee . . . ) After some thought, I accepted another offer. I told my friend that part of my reason was that I didn't want to have to tell the world I had become a CUNY linguist. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:28:36 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:28:36 -0500 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > > My pragmatics are alarmed at the phrase "a sportcaster named Howard > Cossell." Isn't that a little like "a religious figure named Jesus > Christ" or "a fascist leader named Adolf Hitler"? > > dInIs Dennis: You're showing your age. Believe it or not, there are lots of people (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases as "light at the end of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty old codgers, and I haven't run across anyone who responds "we do our part" to NRA for ages. (No, I don't remember the early days of the New Deal -- but I was thirteen when I learned that "President" wasn't a bound morpheme, inseparable from "Roosevelt".) Hell, I can remember going to Wrigley Field to watch the Cubs the last time they made it to the Series just like it was yesterday. Trouble is I'm starting to have trouble remembering yesterday like it was yesterday. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Oct 23 07:50:12 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:50:12 +0100 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: If G. Legman's rcords are presumed correct then he has a 1942 cite, thus: 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, Mam' [Calif. 1942] (NB: The 1972 edn. is a UK paperback which splits the book in two; I can't offer orig. pagination) On the same page he also mentions that the phrase or variants of it is in, but doesn't quote, William M. Camp 'Retreat, Hell' (1943) 524 Heggen & Logan 'Mr. Roberts' [play] plus a ref. to the 'wham-bam tagline' dated 'Fla. 1949'. Jonathon Green From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 10:22:52 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:22:52 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: <001f01c27a68$d2a373b0$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: > A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, > Mam' [Calif. 1942] So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the punchline of an economists' joke. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 23 10:41:01 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:41:01 -0400 Subject: FW: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: Responding to what Jonathon G and Fred S said (cc'd below): It seems unlikely to me that the punchline of a joke would be the source/first citation for a phrase/idiom. Punchlines very often pick up an existing phrase or cliche and use it in a novel or surprising way (hence part of the humor), but some of the humor is lost if the punchline does not play off of an established expression. Of course, a joke may well serve to popularize an expression -- but to originate it? The evidence of a joke would make me want to look further back. Speculatively, Frank Abate ************************** On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: > A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, > Mam' [Calif. 1942] So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the punchline of an economists' joke. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 11:23:51 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:23:51 -0400 Subject: FW: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > It seems unlikely to me that the punchline of a joke would be the > source/first citation for a phrase/idiom. Punchlines very often pick up an > existing phrase or cliche and use it in a novel or surprising way (hence > part of the humor), but some of the humor is lost if the punchline does not > play off of an established expression. > > Of course, a joke may well serve to popularize an expression -- but to > originate it? The evidence of a joke would make me want to look further > back. Frank's point makes sense. In the case of the "don't make waves" joke, the punchline would still work if it were not playing off an existing expression, but it works better if it was. In the case of the "no such thing as a free lunch" joke, the punchline is kind of weak if it is not playing off an existing expression (but I have not found any pre-joke usage despite very extensive researches!). Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 11:33:44 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:33:44 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Don't make waves" has many variants. They almost all involve a guy being given choices of which room in hell he would like to spend eternity in. In one room, a bunch of people are standing around in shit up to their necks sipping coffee and tea. Compared to the other rooms (which can make the joke lengthy), this one looks good; he goes for it and is equipped with cup and saucer. When he remarks to the guy next to him how easy this is, the guy says: "Wait til the devil in the speedboat (on water skis, etc...) goes by." My own favorite is, however, the one in which a devil appears and says "OK, coffee break's over. Back on your heads." I'm all for this derivation of catch phrases from jokes; it seems much more plausible to me. On the other hand, the human drive for narration makes the other direction not unlikely. I guess we'll have to stick to our searching. dInIs >On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > >> 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: >> A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, >> Mam' [Calif. 1942] > >So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how >many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make >waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches >suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the >punchline of an economists' joke. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 12:46:28 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:46:28 EDT Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/23/02 3:50:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > On the same page he also mentions that the phrase or variants of it is in, > but doesn't quote, > > William M. Camp 'Retreat, Hell' (1943) 524 > Heggen & Logan 'Mr. Roberts' [play] "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book to the play and from the play to the movie. I never heard of a book called "Retreat, Hell". That catch-phrase however is from the Civil War, having been used during a council of war during the Battle of Stone's River (December 1862) by General George Henry Thomas. I have seen several variations of what General Thomas said, but all agree on the first two sentences. My favorite variation, based on the fact that Thomas fell asleep in the meeting, is "Retreat, Hell. The Army of the Cumberland doesn't retreat. It just goes back to sleep." - Jim Landau From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 23 15:01:12 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:01:12 -0700 Subject: New form of a word? Message-ID: Hi all, I just received this message from one of our administrators: Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not have to report and be ready for work until 12:00. We are flexing your day. I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is obviously based on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the admin used ad nauseum during recent contract negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be 'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd to anyone else? thanks, Fritz From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 15:25:41 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:25:41 -0700 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: <54.a18429.2ae7f424@aol.com> Message-ID: > "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, > published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the > USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). > In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script > by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of > the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I > have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say > how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book > to the play and from the play to the movie. A copy of the 1948 play is sitting on a shelf within arm's reach. At the end of Act II, Scene I, the character Gerhart says, "Well, there goes the liberty. That was sure a wham-bam-thank you ma'am!" From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 23 16:32:38 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:32:38 -0700 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would think that it comes from flex-time. But I haven't heard it before. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Hi all, > I just received this message from one of our > administrators: > > Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not > have to report and be ready for work until 12:00. > We are flexing your day. > > > I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is > obviously based on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the > admin used ad nauseum during recent contract > negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be > 'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd > to anyone else? > thanks, > Fritz __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Oct 23 16:33:29 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:33:29 -0400 Subject: Orlando Sentinel: Instant messaging impacts kids' grammar Message-ID: http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/living/education/k_12/4340926.htm From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 23 16:53:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:53:19 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how #many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make #waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches #suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the #punchline of an economists' joke. Cf. "Where were you when the shit hit the fan?" Somewhat similarly, growing up in the fifties and sixties and reading, inter alia, my parents' and grandparents' old books and magazines, I gradually reconstructed the original of "That was no X, that was my Y!" from all the parodies and half-quotes that assumed that it was (overly?) well known to the reader. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 17:15:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:15:12 -0400 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi all, >I just received this message from one of our administrators: > >Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not have to report and >be ready for work until 12:00. We are flexing your day. > > >I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is obviously based >on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the admin used ad nauseum during >recent contract negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be >'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd to anyone else? >thanks, >Fritz "Flex" is used around here as a verb, but not in the above sense. Instead, one "flexes" one's benefits (putting a certain amount of money aside each year as non-taxable salary reduction against future unreimbursed tax-deductible medical or child-care benefits that can then be "flexed" each month, whereupon the amount shows up as restored to one's next paycheck. At the end of the year, all set-aside funds must have been submitted; it's use-it-or-lose-it. Perhaps this use of "flex" as a verb influenced the emergence of others. Larry From indigo at WELL.COM Wed Oct 23 17:18:44 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:18:44 -0700 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at the Casper YMCA. While there I heard 2 different people refer to "length swimming" -- instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have always heard throughout all my lap swimming life in California. Any thoughts, explanations? Indigo From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 23 17:57:07 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:57:07 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic linguist? While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there dialects that include this shift? D From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:01:29 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:01:29 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: This treatment of the interdental fricatives is one of the commonly reported features of AAVE (African American Vernacular English) phonology. The appearance of stops in initial position for Standard English fricatives is found in vernaculars all over the US and Britain (and maybe elsewhere). The pattern of [f] for [theta] is, I think, more restricted but not exclusive to AAVE. I don't have Wells here to check. Duane Campbell wrote: > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > dialects that include this shift? > > D From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 23 18:02:58 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: We're simply going to have to have more information on what these jokes were. I appreciate the "wham bam thank you ma'am" joke, which was new to me. What's the economists' joke on TANSTAAFL? And what's the joke that supposedly gave rise to "missionary position"? Count me in the group that thinks that jokes can be a significant source of phrases and idioms, though of course their role can be exaggerated. "Don't make waves" seems less likely because the phrase derives so naturally from the literal meaning. John Baker From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:23:49 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:23:49 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the latter. Lesa Duane Campbell wrote: > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > linguist? > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > dialects that include this shift? > > D From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:26:40 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:26:40 -0400 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: <20021023163245.18872.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Ed Keer wrote: > I would think that it comes from flex-time. But I > haven't heard it before. I have often heard "flex" used as an intransitive verb meaning "work with a flexible schedule." Example: "Employees are allowed to flex in this department." I have not heard it used transitively as in "we are flexing your day." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:03:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:03:31 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <20021023.135711.-68603.1.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 1:57 PM -0400 10/23/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an >imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one >sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or >in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted >sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > >Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic >linguist? Actually, there's a forensic linguistics list that some of us cross-subscribe to, and these questions have been discussed, with the overall sense that (based on past experience) it would be hasty to conclude anything about the actual nationality or native-speaker status of the sniper based on (what we've read about) his (the consensus is "his") messages. (The motivating factor for suspecting non-native-status was the salutation "Dear Mr. Policeman" or whatever it was.) > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there >dialects that include this shift? > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know where he was from before that.) Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 18:21:24 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:21:24 -0700 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: <000b01c27aa8$73002940$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: > > "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, > > published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the > > USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). > > In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script > > by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of > > the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I > > have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say > > how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book > > to the play and from the play to the movie. > > A copy of the 1948 play is sitting on a shelf within arm's > reach. At the end > of Act II, Scene I, the character Gerhart says, "Well, there goes the > liberty. That was sure a wham-bam-thank you ma'am!" I just checked the DVD. This line doesn't appear in the movie. Presumably, it was too risque for 1950s Hollywood. The word "cat-house" is also cut from the same scene. I don't have the novel at hand and it's been some 20 years since I read it. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:24:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:24:18 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <3DB6E3F9.71C38AC2@missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 1:01 PM -0500 10/23/02, Matthew Gordon wrote: >This treatment of the interdental fricatives is one of the commonly reported >features of AAVE (African American Vernacular English) phonology. The >appearance of stops in initial position for Standard English fricatives is >found in vernaculars all over the US and Britain (and maybe elsewhere). The >pattern of [f] for [theta] is, I think, more restricted but not exclusive to >AAVE. I don't have Wells here to check. > also a shibboleth for Cockney, at least in contexts like "wif'" for "with" From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 23 18:22:39 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:22:39 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater variant? Herb Stahlke > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >dialects that include this shift? > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > where he was from before that.) > > Larry > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:16:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:16:47 -0400 Subject: The Full Enchilada (1959) Message-ID: OK, so I was looking for "papusa." This gives us an earlier date and another variant of "the whole enchilada" or "the big enchilada." I would have never searched for "the full enchilada" had I not found it here. From TIME magazine, 9 March 1959, pg. 32, col. 2: _EL SALVADOR_ _The Full Enchilada_ Though his country is the smallest in the Western Hemisphere, El Salvador's President, Lieutenant Colonel Jose Maria Lemus, 47, will get what Latin American diplomats call the "full enchilada" when he arrives in Washington next week on a twelve-day state visit to the U. S. Ingredients: an airport greeting from President Dwight Eisenhower, quarters at Blair House, a White House dinner party, an address to a joint session of Congress, a white tie dinner at Manhattan's Waldorf-Astoria, and a Broadway ticker-tape parade, a visit to Monticello and to the New Salem, Ill. log cabin village where Lincoln lived as a young man. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:13:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:13:41 -0400 Subject: Toad-in-a-Hole (1778) Message-ID: OED has 1787 for "toad in a/the hole." This wins me a date with Nigella Lawson. From the LITERATURE ONLINE database: Huddesford, George, 1749-1809 WARLEY, A SATIRE, PART THE SECOND (from The Second Part of Warley (1778)) ...Macarony takes place of a Toad in a Hole;... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:28:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:28:56 -0400 Subject: Crab Cakes (1898) Message-ID: The Meredith Bernstein-agented FOOD FESTIVAL USA (2002) mentions on page 129 that the earliest citation for "crab cakes" is 1939. The citation was taken from John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). If Meredith Bernstein is wondering, this is all just wild luck on my part. She signed a wonderful author. 25 September 1898, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 15 (poem): There dwelt in Gothic cottage A swell crowd from Baltimore. (...) In the gloaming came the gathering, "Feast of reason," "Flow of soul," When the best discussed of topics Was the flaky, steaming roll. Such crab cakes as greet our optics When the dinner tocsin peals, Will remain a memory with us, When we roam Elysian Fields. 21 March 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad for Siegel Cooper Co. department store, col. 2: CRAB MEATS--"Tull's" fine quality Chesapeake Deviled crab meat and carefully packed immediately after being caught. Delicious for making deviled crabs, croquettes, salad or crab cakes (crab shells free)... From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Oct 23 20:14:28 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:14:28 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native distinction? Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens (freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. "During the Middle Ages everybody was middle aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." (Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) T. M. Paikeday www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesa Dill" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the > Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the > person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I > agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's > easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > > Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American > English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > latter. > > Lesa > > Duane Campbell wrote: > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > linguist? > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > D > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 23 20:21:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:21:11 -0400 Subject: Orlando Sentinel: Instant messaging impacts kids' grammar (fwd) Message-ID: I passed the article on to a friend, who commented: >>> Perhaps the approach should be to consider IM as a dialect to understand. and learn to translate into other forms of English (I can just see a whole new cluster of homework assignments translating dialects into formal English and vice versa). Interesting. <<< -- Mark A. Mandel From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Oct 23 21:11:49 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:11:49 -0400 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: I swam in high school (41-43, two state championships, Battle Creek, Michigan) and college (46-48). We usually said "lengths" instead of laps, e.g. "I did 100 lengths today." Other high svchool swimmers I talked with also used "lenths". Laps, however, was not uncommon. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Indigo Som To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: length swimming > On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at the Casper YMCA. > While there I heard 2 different people refer to "length swimming" -- > instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have always heard > throughout all my lap swimming life in California. Any thoughts, > explanations? > Indigo > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 23 21:38:28 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:38:28 -0400 Subject: Comptroller v. Controller Message-ID: The Securities and Exchange Commission recently drew a distinction between these two words, which I had thought of as being interchangeable: >>The Sarbanes-Oxley Act uses the term "comptroller." It is our understanding that a comptroller position generally is the position in a government agency or non-profit organization with oversight responsibilities for the agency's or organization's primary accounting function. We believe that for-profit organizations typically use the term "controller" to describe this function. Therefore, throughout this release, we have used the term "controller" instead of the term "comptroller."<< Securities and Exchange Commission, Disclosure Required by Sections 404, 406 and 407 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, Release No. 33-8138, fn. 46 (Oct. 22, 2002). John Baker From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 23 21:54:14 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:54:14 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <000501c27ac1$2c4cc260$9aed540c@ibm15259> Message-ID: Chief Moose also has /v/ for voiced (th) medially, not just finally--as in 'other' and 'brother'. But haven't we diverged from the question about the sniper? Is the entire threatening letter available somewhere? I thought not, but if it is, it's quite easy to detect non-native English, in both oral and written productions. This is indeed something forensic linguists should be able to do. At least those of us in SLA can usually do this, and there are plenty such experts in the DC area. At 01:22 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class >African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep >serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly >Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater >variant? > >Herb Stahlke > > > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > >dialects that include this shift? > > > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > > where he was from before that.) > > > > Larry > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 23 21:59:29 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:59:29 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <3DB6E935.AAB42912@wku.edu> Message-ID: What do you mean by "the latter"? AAVE is the general usage now, but there's nothing wrong with Black English or Ebonics either. We're not into PCness. Personally, I favor BEV, for obvious reasons. At 01:23 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the >Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the >person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I >agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our >children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's >easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > >Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American >English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the >latter. > >Lesa > >Duane Campbell wrote: > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > linguist? > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > D From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 22:34:47 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:34:47 -0700 Subject: Comptroller v. Controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Securities and Exchange Commission recently drew > a distinction between these two words, which I had thought of > as being interchangeable: > > >>The Sarbanes-Oxley Act uses the term "comptroller." > It is our understanding that a comptroller position generally > is the position in a government agency or non-profit > organization with oversight responsibilities for the agency's > or organization's primary accounting function. We believe > that for-profit organizations typically use the term > "controller" to describe this function. Therefore, throughout > this release, we have used the term "controller" instead of > the term "comptroller."<< > > Securities and Exchange Commission, Disclosure Required by > Sections 404, 406 and 407 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, > Release No. 33-8138, fn. 46 (Oct. 22, 2002). Garner's Dict. of Modern American Usage supports the SEC's contention (as does my personal experience in both government and business). But this is a tendency only. You will find many public institutions that use "controller" and many businesses that use "comptroller." There is no semantic distinction, only in spheres of use. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 22:46:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:19 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <00b901c27ad0$cb0e6660$8163e440@co611769a> Message-ID: Someone (T. M. I guess, since he has done it before, even in a book-length treatment) seems to be confusing "native" and "fluent," particularly "fluent in a genre." I am a native speaker of English, remarkable disfluent in many genres. dInIs >I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, >illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native >distinction? > >Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens >(freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert >opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to >comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." >(Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > >T. M. Paikeday >www.paikeday.net > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lesa Dill" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM >Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > >> The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on >the >> Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether >the >> person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say >native. I >> agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our >> children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think >it's >> easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or >non-native. >> >> Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African >American >> English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the >> latter. >> >> Lesa >> >> Duane Campbell wrote: >> >> > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an >> > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one >> > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time >or >> > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted >> > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. >> > >> > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic >> > linguist? >> > >> > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. >Moose) >> > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". >> > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, >> > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent >> > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech >> > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there >> > dialects that include this shift? >> > >> > D >> -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mkuha at BSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 22:43:33 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:43:33 -0400 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 by Jonathan Serrie Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 00:41:50 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:41:50 EDT Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the pond for some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for years. I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also have a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team plays. BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. Fritz > Noteworthy also is that in the US we often say "soccer team" and "soccer > game", but that in UK "football club/side" (sometimes "team") and "football > match" are more usual. In fact, I don't think "football game" is allowable > in Brit. Eng. (at least, not for a "soccer game"), but I may be wrong. > Maybe Michael Q can chime in on this. > > This may be one of the only areas in which British English has demonstrably > influenced American English, with real evidence to show it. > From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Oct 24 01:24:22 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:24:22 -0700 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Mai: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mai Kuha" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station > Wednesday, October 23, 2002 > by Jonathan Serrie > > Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html This is interesting. But it's hardly surprising. "Southern" accents tend to be thought of by a lot of people as "sounding stupid and uneducated". This is a stereotype, of course, but it doesn't stop some people from thinking that way. Conversely, certain "Brooklyn" types are thought to sound "rude and unpleasant". And in radio and on TV, *any* "regional" accent tends to be frowned upon. Some people with such accents even take speech lessons to try to "get rid" of them. But a trained ear, and one who has been somewhere, can usually tell the announcers who take speech lessons to "correct" their accents. I used to hear this sort of thing a lot on NPR, which is one of the reasons I stopped listening to them. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 24 01:30:35 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:30:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row Message-ID: Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > >To: "19cBB" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "John Thorn" >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:38:05 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Murderers' Row >More in the rummaging vein. I hope this of interest. > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from a >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: > >Murderers' Row was an actual alley long before the Civil War, starting where >Watts Street ended at Sullivan Street, midway along the block between Grand >and Broome Streets. > >Now part of the fashionable Soho district, Murderers' Row was one of many >mean streets in the neighborhood later known as Darktown (as the Chinese had >Chinatown and the Jews had Jewtown--yes, that was what they called the Lower >East Side in the years before 1900). > > > >John Thorn > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 03:55:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:55:57 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (continued) Message-ID: FYI of the City Section of THE NEW YORK TIMES asked DARE about "selling the Brooklyn Bridge." (Mayor Bloomberg needs money.) DARE sent FYI to me. I had already posted the 15 February 1920 citation from NY TIMES full text. I got a few more ADS-ers involved (George Thompson, Fred Shapiro, David Shulman). David Shulman was profiled in the TIMES regarding Steve Brodie. He sends along this, from THE NEW YORKER, 17 May 1952, pg. 58, col. 3: The two things Brooklyn Bridge is most noted for--that confidence men used to sell it to gullible outlanders, and that Steve Brodie jumped off it--have little, if any, basis in fact. Although, forty of fifty years ago, confidence men and bunko steerers found rich pickings among the stream of rubbernecks that flowed along the promenade, the transactions involved elixirs of life, gold bricks, counterfeit money, patents for horseless vehicles, contraptions for transmuting base metals into gold, and so on, but never, as far as anyone knows, the bridge. The phrase "selling the Brooklyn Bridge" somehow entered the language, but there is no evidence that it was ever sold by anyone until December 2, 1945, when Mayor LaGuardia sold it to Jacob W. Schwab, president of the United Merchants Manufacturing Company, in return for a check for $17,500,000 at a War Bond auction held on the plaza of the Manhattan approach. All Schwab got, besides his War Bonds and a hearty laugh, was a fine wooden scale model of the bridge, built by E. S. Newman, of the Department of Public Works. Ricky Jay, as stated before, sold the Brooklyn Bridge every night in his Off-Broadway magic show recently. A web search turned up the name George Parker, "the original Brooklyn Bridge seller." Parker allegedly tried to sell other New York landmarks as well. The NEW YORK TIMES full text didn't turn up anything at all on such a "George Parker." Perhaps early tomorrow I'll go to SIBL and try to get on the WALL STREET JOURNAL full text database. WSJ might have a greater range of financial swindlers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 04:26:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:26:54 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) Message-ID: A middle initial threw me off. Sorry about that. Here are two 1928 articles. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES hit is still 1920, but there is a "1901" date mentioned here. 8 July 1928, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 21: _CONFIDENCE MAN JAILED._ _McCloundy, Who Once Sold the_ _Brooklyn Bridge, Faces Life Term._ William McCloundy, 68 years old, of Asbury Park, N. J., whose chief failing was selling the Brooklyn Bridge, lots in City Hall Park and other property he did not own, was held without bail on a charge of second degree grand larceny by Judge Vaum in Kings County Court yesterday. According to detectives who extradited McCloundy on Friday night, he sold the Brooklyn bridge in 1901, for which he was convicted of grand larceny and served two and a half years in Sing Sing. (Anything on WESTLAW?--ed.) 18 December 1928, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 33: _FORGER GETS LIFE TERM._ _G. C. Parker, Confidence Man_ _Once "Sold" Brooklyn Bridge._ George C. Parker, 58 years old, said by the police to be an old-time confidence man, was sentenced to Sing Sing for life by Judge McLaughlin in the Kings County Court yesterday. (...) His early exploits are said to have included the "sale" of the Brooklyn Bridge... (Again, WESTLAW?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 05:03:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:03:32 -0400 Subject: Steak Tartare (1895); Food Festival (1912) Message-ID: I work too darn hard. --------------------------------------------------------------- STEAK TARTARE Rec.food.historic--OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD's Andy Smith's sometime posting ground--has had about 30 messages this week on "steak tartare." OED and Merriam-Webster have 1911. One poster traced it to 1900. I'll beat it quickly (without searching my files). From the free EARLY CANADIANA ONLINE: COOKERY Richards, Amy G. Montreal: E. M. Renouf 1895 Pg. 266: BEEFSTEAK A LA TARTARE (Recipe follows--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD FESTIVAL "Food festival" is an interesting term to trace. I had a post here two years ago on the term. "Food festival" appears to have taken off post-WWII. Notice the large gap in the first four citations here. 9 May 1912, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4 ad: Our great May Food Festival. More popular than ever. (...) Greenhut-Siegel Cooper Co. Both sides of 6th Ave. 18th and 19th Streets "The Big Store" 9 October 1938, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 178: Committees have been appointed to work out plans for a sea-food festival. (At Virginia Beach, Virginia--ed.) 6 November 1938, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 156: _A Food Festival in Old Kentucky._ 19 October 1948, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 30: Macy's bids its customers to a tasting party this week. A Fine Food Festival opened yesterday on its eighth floor;... From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 11:46:50 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:46:50 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) In-Reply-To: <5B2238A9.440D5FDF.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A middle initial threw me off. Sorry about that. Here are two 1928 > articles. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES hit is still 1920, but there is a > "1901" date mentioned here. I had already found the 1928 articles yesterday and told the Times reporter about them. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Oct 24 12:27:01 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:27:01 -0500 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station In-Reply-To: <052301c27afc$1bb41850$d80ed63f@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mai Kuha" > Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station >> Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: >> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html On 10/23/02 8:24 PM, Anne Gilbert wrote: > This is interesting. But it's hardly surprising. "Southern" accents tend > to be thought of by a lot of people as "sounding stupid and uneducated". > (...) And in radio and on TV, *any* "regional" > accent tends to be frowned upon. (...) > Anne G True. I posted the URL not so much as the shock of the day but because it's interesting to see what kinds of comments about language variation make it into the media. Still, matched guise experiments on Southern speech and on stigmatized language varieties in general show that, while these varieties earn their speakers low ratings on status characteristics such as intelligence, at the same time they correlate with positive impressions on so-called solidarity characteristics, such as friendliness and trustworthiness, at least when the speakers rated are men. In the context of the job of a DJ for a country station, we might have expected the solidarity concerns to outweigh status concerns, so actually this case was at least mildly surprising. -Mai From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 12:34:59 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 05:34:59 -0700 Subject: length swimming In-Reply-To: <010c01c27ad8$e86bd1e0$59d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: I also swam in highschool (80-84), and more recently on a Masters team. I've always used laps. Although non-swimmers often get confused when you talk about laps and I usually translate into lengths. BTW most pools I've been in had designated "lap-lanes". Ed --- Robert Fitzke wrote: > I swam in high school (41-43, two state > championships, Battle Creek, > Michigan) and college (46-48). We usually said > "lengths" instead of laps, > e.g. "I did 100 lengths today." Other high svchool > swimmers I talked with > also used "lenths". Laps, however, was not > uncommon. > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indigo Som > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:18 PM > Subject: length swimming > > > > On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at > the Casper YMCA. > > While there I heard 2 different people refer to > "length swimming" -- > > instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have > always heard > > throughout all my lap swimming life in California. > Any thoughts, > > explanations? > > Indigo > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 12:51:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:51:11 EDT Subject: length swimming Message-ID: Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 13:00:28 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:00:28 -0700 Subject: freshman English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Oct 24 13:05:08 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:05:08 -0400 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: Most swim announcers I've heard would say "Going into the last 50 (25) meters, Fitzke leads by two lengths." :-) Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:51 AM Subject: Re: length swimming > Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. > > Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. > > - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 13:19:23 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:19:23 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Is there a DARE entry for "nucular/nuclear"? President Bush and former Pres. Carter favor "nucular"; any other presidents or nationally recognized people who have favored that pronunciation? Growing up in Utah in the 50's, "nucular" was my pronunciation, and remained so until I was convinced otherwise - some time in the late 60's or early 70's. I still occasionally revert to that pronunciation. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 24 13:56:45 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:56:45 -0400 Subject: freshman English Message-ID: Thanks, James Smith. Freshman English is worth repeating, even if for fun! ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: freshman English > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly > creeped into > >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to > town expo- > >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the > countryside.... > Finally > >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from > port to port by > >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into > reorientation muta- > >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European > countrys had > >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists > were universal > >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin > revolted Russia. > >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to > an end when a > >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last > stage is us." > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 24 13:56:25 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Dennis, I think this is a red herring; I never even thought of fluency, let alone mention it in my book-length treatment as an arguing point. "Fluent in a genre" sounds like a subspecies of Clupeus harengus. Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a recording may be available. I am fairly confident the sniper is going to be caught one of these days; Bush has placed the Federal resources at the disposal of the police. At that time, linguists should be able to conduct a more thorough evaluation of the sniper's speech. I think this would simply confirm that he is a native speaker of his own idiolect. This applies to everyone who speaks English or any other language for that matter (Chomsky's current position incidentally). TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > Someone (T. M. I guess, since he has done it before, even in a > book-length treatment) seems to be confusing "native" and "fluent," > particularly "fluent in a genre." I am a native speaker of English, > remarkable disfluent in many genres. > > dInIs > > > > > > >I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > >illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > >distinction? > > > >Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens > >(freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert > >opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to > >comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > > > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into > >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- > >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally > >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by > >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- > >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had > >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal > >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. > >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a > >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." > >(Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > > > >T. M. Paikeday > >www.paikeday.net > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Lesa Dill" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM > >Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > > > > >> The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on > >the > >> Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether > >the > >> person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say > >native. I > >> agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > >> children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think > >it's > >> easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or > >non-native. > >> > >> Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African > >American > >> English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > >> latter. > >> > >> Lesa > >> > >> Duane Campbell wrote: > >> > >> > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > >> > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > >> > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time > >or > >> > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > >> > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > >> > > >> > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > >> > linguist? > >> > > >> > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. > >Moose) > >> > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >> > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >> > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >> > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >> > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >> > dialects that include this shift? > >> > > >> > D > >> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 14:13:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:13:05 EDT Subject: Donald Lance dies Message-ID: This is from the American Name Society list. What a grim week. Everybody here, stay healthy! Barry Popik Subj: Don Lance died! Date: 10/24/2002 9:54:12 AM Eastern Standard Time From: edlawson at NETSYNC.NET Reply-to: lawson at fredonia.edu To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Sent from the Internet (Details) Friends of Don Lance This morning I received a message from Demsey Lance that Don died last night (Wednesday, October 23rd.) at his home in Columbia, Missouri. Funeral/memorial arrangements are pending. If you are interested in further information, let me have your e-mail address and I will relay further news as it becomes available. His brothers, Demsey and Frank, are flying up from Texas at this time. *ed* -- Edwin D. Lawson can also be used Professor Emeritus of Psychology State University College, Fredonia Telephone: 716 673-1921 FAX: 716 673-1921 From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 24 14:19:53 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:19:53 -0600 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <109.1ab5a379.2ae89bce@aol.com> Message-ID: I used to coach youth soccer in Montana. The positions were officially designated as Fritz indicates; however, my players preferred the more exciting sounding 'striker' for 'forward'. Sometimes we also used 'halfback' in place of 'mid'. When I played intramural in California (years ago!) 'fullback' was more prevalent than 'defender'. As to 'goalie', AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) issued an edict one year that we were to say 'keeper' or 'goalkeeper' instead - but of course, nobody paid any attention! 'Teams' and 'games' were the usual usage in our league. Scott Swanson On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the pond for > some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for years. > I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon > (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are > forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also have > a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each > position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. > A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team plays. > BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. > Fritz > > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 24 14:38:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:38:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:30:35PM -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > > > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from > >a > >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of > >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of > >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: Jerry, I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? Jesse Sheidlower From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 14:51:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:51:43 EDT Subject: Grey Zone/Grey Area Message-ID: The cover story in the October 25-31, 2002 Manhattan JEWISH SENTINEL is "The Grey Zone." That's the title of a new movie about the holocaust. There are about 7,000 Google hits. See also "Gray Zone." Neither is in OED. There are about ten times as many hits for "grey/gray area." OED has this term from the 1960s, but only as a poverty area that was literally shaded grey on maps. Surely, the larger sense of the term is much older than the 1960s, or even the 1940s? From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:04:24 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:04:24 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <010501c27b65$28ce0960$8163e440@co611769a> Message-ID: Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC "expert"? --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind > of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a > recording may be available. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 24 15:06:38 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:06:38 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a five-year season ticket holder to DC United (our local MLS team), and one of six Anglo members of the Latino fan club - it seems to be dependent on who you're talking to, whether it's a US American, a Latin American, or a European (occasionally you'll get an US American who follows Brit Footy avidly and therefore uses the more Euro terms "striker" and "keeper" all the time). Among the US Americans - "goalie" is more prevalent than "keeper", but you'll hear "who's on goal?" more often than "who's the goalie/keeper?" (On Fritz's BTW - does that mean your players have to get the ball past their OWN goalie to score?) We refer to the "team" and the "league" but it's a "match" not a "game" and a "pitch" not a "field." The positions are as Fritz's mentions. On a side note on soccer fan usages; one of my favorites - which comes from the Anglo fan club that sits right next to us - whenever they think that a player from the opposing team has "taken a dive" and is faking his injuries - they scream "Greg Louganis!" Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 08:19 AM 10/24/02 -0600, you wrote: >I used to coach youth soccer in Montana. The positions were officially >designated as Fritz indicates; however, my players preferred the more >exciting sounding 'striker' for 'forward'. Sometimes we also used >'halfback' in place of 'mid'. When I played intramural in California >(years ago!) 'fullback' was more prevalent than 'defender'. As to >'goalie', AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) issued an edict one >year that we were to say 'keeper' or 'goalkeeper' instead - but of course, >nobody paid any attention! 'Teams' and 'games' were the usual usage in our >league. > >Scott Swanson > >On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > > I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the > pond for > > some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for > years. > > I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon > > (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are > > forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also > have > > a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each > > position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. > > A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team > plays. > > BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. > > Fritz > > > > From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:19:47 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:19:47 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <19435.3244446264@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Later reports that the stepson, Malvo, is a native of Jamaica, still doesn't add up to "Hispanic" --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:04 AM -0400 David Bergdahl wrote: > Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the > NBC "expert"? > > --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > wrote: > >> Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that >> the sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with >> an accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have >> been based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is >> a kind of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >> recording may be available. > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 15:34:08 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:34:08 EDT Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/24/02 10:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA writes: > Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English Huh? Someone speaking in AAVE is probably African-American, but unless he spoke something exotic like "Hillbilly" I cannot imagine what criteria would give away that he were Caucasian. A Hispanic accent would not do (and do you classify Hispanics as Caucasians? Most race survey questionnaires do not) as there are many black Hispanics, particularly in the Caribbean. And just how does one display a "suspected" Heespanic accent een writing rather than een espeaking? I will grant that your Internet Service Provider gives away that it is NOT Hispanic by mispelling "simpa/tico". (And speaking of NBC Nightly News, does Peter Jennings still bother to carry his green card?) - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:41:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:41:18 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <19435.3244446264@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC >"expert"? The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know more (or at least be told more), I suspect. L > >--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > wrote: > >>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the >>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an >>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been >>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind >>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >>recording may be available. >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 15:51:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:51:48 EDT Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: In a message dated 10/24/02 9:19:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM writes: > President Bush and former Pres. Carter favor "nucular" I am a great non-admirer of President Carter, but I must note that he was a nucular engineer in the US Navy and therefore on this one subject speaks with authority. - Jim Landau P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days living in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop is Judishooairy Square". From savan at EROLS.COM Thu Oct 24 15:57:19 2002 From: savan at EROLS.COM (Leslie Savan) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: That sounds great. I'll ask Jolie. Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > #So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how > #many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make > #waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches > #suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the > #punchline of an economists' joke. > > Cf. "Where were you when the shit hit the fan?" > > Somewhat similarly, growing up in the fifties and sixties and reading, > inter alia, my parents' and grandparents' old books and magazines, I > gradually reconstructed the original of "That was no X, that was my Y!" > from all the parodies and half-quotes that assumed that it was (overly?) > well known to the reader. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 15:54:59 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:54:59 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Jim L posted: >> Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) << I would say that in the first sentence, "length" means 'body length' in this (swimming) context (as it would in horse racing, too, btw). The 2nd sentence does not seem logical to me, but then to me "length" never means 'lap', per my idiolect and personal experience. I am an avid NON-swimmer, but my 3 children all swam for many years -- YMCA, US Swimming, high school, one in college. MANY, many meets attended, officiated at, scored for, talked about, for many years. And, my ex-wife was/is a swim coach, and a Masters swimmer, for over 20 years. I would say that I know more about swimming and swimming lingo than anyone who never goes in the water. Frank Abate From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 24 16:06:54 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:06:54 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row In-Reply-To: <20021024143851.GA17927@panix.com> Message-ID: > I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by > about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption > that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? > > Jesse Sheidlower Dickson's New Baseball Dictionary gives an 1858 date for baseball use of "murderers' row," but says the jail usage predates that and is the ultimate origin. Only indirect citations are given. Dickson cites an April 1948 "Baseball Digest" article by Bill Bryson (either a different Bill Bryson or a typo in the date) that refers to an 1858 newspaper article. Also a Ph.D. dissertation by Edward J. Nichols, "An Historical Dictionary of Baseball Terminology" (1939) refers to an 1858 clipping in Henry Chadwick's scrapbook that uses the term. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 16:28:41 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:28:41 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <20021024131923.78133.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have recently done some research on the presidential use of this term (for an article soon to appear, I'm given to understand, in NYT), and can report that: 1. Besides GW Bush, Carter and Eisenhower also said a form of the "NOOK-y at -l@r"; "-yoo-" (@ = schwa) pron. Carter sometimes sounded like he was actually saying “NYOO-kee- at r”. I was unable to find an audio pron on this from presidents Ford or GHW Bush. 2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a "NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. 3. I expect that Truman or Eisenhower were the first presidents who ever had to use the word in a public speech. DDE definitely used it; I'm not sure about HST; could not find a use of it by him, but he may have, sometime. Prior to the dropping of the atomic bomb (Aug 1945), the word just did not come up much, outside of the mouths of technicians and scientists. 4. There is a discussion of the whole issue at www.linguistlist.org. Also an item on it at the Random House dicts website, www.randomhouse.com/wotd. (Aside: We can be absolutely certain that Warren G. Harding NEVER said the word _nuclear_. He was, shall we say, intellectually challenged, and perhaps the most naive president of all. BUT he was considered handsome and distinguished-looking, and in 1920, the first year of women's suffrage in the US, the Republicans nominated him partly for his looks (hoping to win the votes of the women), and partly also because he was so gullible and could be manipulated by the boys in the smoke-filled rooms. Surprisingly, WGH was a fairly decent speech-deliverer (he could read them, though he likely never wrote one), although he had problems with words and prons, kinda like GWB.) Enid Pearsons, long the pron editor for Random House dicts, helped me get the facts straight on all this (thanks, Enid). Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 16:33:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:33:04 -0400 Subject: Just coincidence? Message-ID: Montgomery (AL)/Montgomery (County, MD) Washington (State)/Washington, DC Tacoma (WA)/Takoma Park (Montgomery County, MD) OK, none of the snipings took place in Takoma Park, but it does seem as though these are greater than chance resemblances. Or maybe not. The CNN guy, maybe Wolf Blitzer himself, just asked the police chief in Montgomery AL whether he thought there was a connection, and the latter didn't seem to understand the question. L From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 16:40:20 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:40:20 EDT Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. same priciple as in basketball. The other team has a basket, or goal, and you try to keep them from scoring into it, i.e. their basket or goal. Fritz > (On Fritz's BTW - does that mean your players have to get > the ball past their OWN goalie to score?) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 16:44:27 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:44:27 -0400 Subject: lap and length Message-ID: Peter Mc. said and asked: >> I've always wondered whether a lap in swimming was a one-way trip or a round trip, but I always seemed to be in the water when I wondered that, and didn't have a dictionary handy. Consulting my AHD when this thread started didn't help: it only mentions a complete circuit of a running track. I ASSUME the swimming equivalent would be a round-trip: if so, then a length would be half a lap, and the two words would refer to different things rather than being regional variants. Is that what you mean by "'length' never means 'lap'," Frank? << As to this, "lap" is used -- at swim meets, at least -- to mean 'passage in one direction for one length of the pool', and never means 'round trip'. So what I meant was that "length" does not mean 'lap' in my idiolect, as regards its use at swim meets. And I now add that "lap" never means 'round trip', that is, 2 single passages down or lengths of the pool. I should have added that "length" is used, casually and outside of swim meets, to mean 'passage in one direction for one length of the pool'. Made up example: "She swam 16 lengths of the pool as a morning workout". That would mean 16 **laps**, not round trips or circuits. In a 25-yard pool, "16 lengths/laps" = 400 yards. So in this casual usage "lap" is equivalent to "length". It would be revealing to see corpus evidence for "length(s)", to see how often it is followed by the words "of the pool". Jesse (in your abundant spare time)? Frank Abate From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 24 17:22:02 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:22:02 -0700 Subject: lap and length In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Super!!! That means I've been doing twice as many laps as I thought I was! (Now if I just wouldn't always lose track of how many I've done--whether one-way or round-trip....) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:44 PM -0400 Frank Abate wrote: > "lap" is used -- at swim meets, at least -- to mean 'passage > in one direction for one length of the pool', and never means 'round > trip'. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Oct 24 17:28:23 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:28:23 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >[...] >2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. [...] Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? Wendalyn Nichols From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Oct 24 17:32:54 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:32:54 -0700 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Mai: > True. I posted the URL not so much as the shock of the day but because it's > interesting to see what kinds of comments about language variation make it > into the media. Still, matched guise experiments on Southern speech and on > stigmatized language varieties in general show that, while these varieties > earn their speakers low ratings on status characteristics such as > intelligence, at the same time they correlate with positive impressions on > so-called solidarity characteristics, such as friendliness and > trustworthiness, at least when the speakers rated are men. In the context of > the job of a DJ for a country station, we might have expected the solidarity > concerns to outweigh status concerns, so actually this case was at least > mildly surprising. That might be true, except in places like Atlanta, which is probably trying to "upgrade" its image. Then the "solidarity" concerns might not have as much weight. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 18:10:40 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:10:40 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021024132656.00a780f0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Wendalyn Nichols said: >At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >>[...] >>2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >>heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >>"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. >[...] > >Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? > Well, if you're appealing to JFK's pronunciation as the right [sic] way, surely it would be "NOO-klee- at h". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 24 18:46:13 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:46:13 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) Message-ID: A Westlaw search finds nothing for McCloundy or G.C. Parker. That does not throw the reports in the New York Times in question, but only means that there do not seem to have been any published reports of those cases. John Baker From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 19:19:41 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:19:41 -0400 Subject: FW: nuclear/nucular (and dict coverage) Message-ID: Yes, what Wendalyn N says is correct -- Kennedy and (I think) Nixon said "NOO-klee- at r" (not what I mistakenly typed before). THAT is the "right way", my jocular way of saying that the "NOO-klee- at r" pron is given first in most dictionaries, and that it is the pron that pedants, schoolmarms, and other miscellaneous correctors of speech insist on. I myself say "NOO-klee- at r", btw; it is simply a matter of personal preference. My view (ahem) is that people can and even should pronounce "nuclear" -- and all other words -- as they learned them, either from their parents and peers, or as they were taught in school. And if one has never actually heard a word pronounced at all, that person should (I know and accept that most folks don't) look up that word in a good, up-to-date dictionary of American English. Any of the Big 4 "college" dicts (Web New World, Random House, Merriam-Webster, or Amer Heritage) do nicely for pron help. Though they differ on usage and other such advice (and some other things, too), they generally get the basic facts right most of the time. Another good choice for prons (and other things) is the New Oxford American Dictionary, or its abridged descendant, the just-published Oxford American College Dictionary. Like the Big 4, the new Oxford American dicts were edited in the USA by American lexos. And the NEW Oxford American dicts are up-to-date, having just been completed in the past 2 years. DO NOT EVER USE the "Oxford American Dictionary" (copyright 1980 or so), and please, PLEASE do not buy it. It has a telltale red jacket in its mass-market edition, and a yellow jacket in the trade paperback edition -- the latter is the very same book, page-for-page, just larger trim size and type. In fact, it is one book that I would like to see all copies of destroyed -- that's how awful, and now woefully out-of-date, it truly is. For Oxford American dicts, use the ones with the BLUE jackets. AVOID the old one (check the copyright date) with the red or the yellow jacket -- that's the bad one. Sorry to go on so about dicts, but I wanted to get this off my chest. Frank Abate At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >[...] >2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. [...] Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? Wendalyn Nichols From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 20:01:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:01:07 EDT Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: OT, but one news report stated that "the car was fingerprinted". - Jim Landau From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 24 20:55:23 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:55:23 +0100 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: > Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. > You don't guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the > other team's goal. same priciple as in basketball. The other team > has a basket, or goal, and you try to keep them from scoring into > it, i.e. their basket or goal. Er, we are talking about the game we in Britain call football and you call soccer, aren't we? The goalkeeper (also called the 'goalie') guards his own team's goal (that is, the enclosure with the posts, crossbar and net behind) and members of the opposing team can only score goals by getting the ball past him. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 24 20:56:42 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:56:42 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. "First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or "keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or "keeper". Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most certainly does NOT apply in soccer. So the person guarding YOUR goal is YOUR goalkeeper. You're shooting for the OTHER TEAM'S goal, and THEIR goalkeeper is defending it. You score by getting the ball into THEIR net. If you get it into your own net, it's an OWN GOAL ("autogol" in Spanish), and it counts for the other team. Other points: There's no rule on this, but a lot of soccer-loving and soccer-knowledgable Amerks find "pitch" excessively British. Like, when we mean soccer shoes, we don't say "boots", do we? I don't think we have to import every Britishism for soccer, er, football. That'd be right naff, inn'it?" From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 21:09:48 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:09:48 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021024164820.00a1f820@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen E. Miller said: >At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >>A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >>guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. > > >This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the >original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite >direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our >editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a >book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling >me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. > >"First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian >of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or >"keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, >although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and >the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or >"keeper". >Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's >just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your >team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is >standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is >coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in >philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. >So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most >certainly does NOT apply in soccer. Well, it's obvious that this wasn't written by a linguist! It's long been clear to me that hockey, basketball, soccer, and, for all I know, lacrosse and a bunch of other games all have the same "deep structure". There are a few basic parameters that have to be set (the length of a game, the surface you play on, the number of players on a team, and the relative size of goal and ball) and the more obvious differences, notably the relative difficulty of scoring a point (from which follows a typical final score) follow from the settings of these more abstract paramaters. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 00:22:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:22:09 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My earlier point exactly. And what you call the hole/basket,net/whatever you score into (mine, yours, Hussenpfeffer's) is interesting only by variable usage. In basketball you make points at "your end of the court," but I cannot defend this on logical grounds (nor could I defend the other label). dInIs >Kathleen E. Miller said: >>At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >>>A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >>>guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. >> >> >>This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the >>original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite >>direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our >>editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a >>book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling >>me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. >> >>"First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian >>of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or >>"keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, >>although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and >>the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or >>"keeper". >>Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's >>just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your >>team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is >>standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is >>coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in >>philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. >>So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most >>certainly does NOT apply in soccer. > >Well, it's obvious that this wasn't written by a linguist! It's long >been clear to me that hockey, basketball, soccer, and, for all I >know, lacrosse and a bunch of other games all have the same "deep >structure". There are a few basic parameters that have to be set (the >length of a game, the surface you play on, the number of players on a >team, and the relative size of goal and ball) and the more obvious >differences, notably the relative difficulty of scoring a point (from >which follows a typical final score) follow from the settings of >these more abstract paramaters. > > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 25 00:26:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:26:19 EDT Subject: Grey Zone (continued); Kosher Conspiracy Message-ID: GREY ZONE (continued) 9 January 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 22: _The Great Gray_ _Zone of Crime_ There is a twilight area of crime--inhabited by the bootlegger, the professional gambler, the racketeer, the blackmailer--which may be called the gray zone. It rests between the white zone--the law-abiding people--and the black zone, whose members are the ruthless murderers and desperadoes. (This article appeared two days later in the Magazine section...OED has 1960 for "twilight area"--ed.) 7 June 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 14: _"GREY ZONE" CHIEF MENACE_ (A map of China is shown--ed.) 20 May 1951, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: The Admiral outlined the United States program for the present period which he described as "the grey area" between all-out war and peace. 22 February 1959, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 64: _"Gray Belt" of Decay Likely to Grow, Study of Trends in 12 Regions Finds_ (...) In this expanding gray area Dr. Vernon predicted in his report a long-run decline in the intensive use of space as sites for homes and jobs. (OED has 1963 for this "gray area"--ed.) 13 August 1960, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 14: _The City's "Gray Areas"_ (...) First priority for renewal resulting from the survey is expected to go to New York's so-called "gray areas"--blighted neighborhoods that have not yet sunk to slum depths. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KOSHER CONSPIRACY _British Views of American Jews_ _The "Kosher Conspiracy" Misconception_ --NEW YORK SUN, 24 October 2002, pg. 7, cols. 2-3 headline. "Kosher Conspiracy" got big play earlier this year from an article in the NEW STATESMAN. (This same publication, just about a week earlier, said that TAD coined "hot dog.") "Kosher Conspiracy" was not coined just this year. Google Groups has it from 1992. It means literally that. People believe that "kosher" on a product raises its price, and that the money goes to the Jews (who, by the way, were all warned in advance about the World Trade Center). How old is this term? From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 21:46:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:46:32 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been home since this morning, so maybe this has already been discussed by the media, but isn't it likely that what the officials heard as an "accent" or "broken English" in the "garbled" phone calls was simply Jamaican Creole? We can speak of a "written accent" too, usually both cultural and linguistic, which might explain the unfamiliar "Dear Mr. Policeman," etc. At 11:41 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >>Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC >>"expert"? > >The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, >using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican >locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a >reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) >Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard >to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne >Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, >either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know >more (or at least be told more), I suspect. > >L > >> >>--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" >> wrote: >> >>>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the >>>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an >>>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been >>>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind >>>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >>>recording may be available. >>_________________________________________ >>"We are all New Yorkers" >> --Dominique Moisi From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 00:37:17 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:37:17 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Jim Landau writes, >> ...and do you classify Hispanics as Caucasians? Most race survey >> questionnaires do not as there are many black Hispanics, particularly >> in the Caribbean. Hispanics, as US government forms, reports, etc. consistently state, may be of any race. The word denotes language and culture, not race. >> And speaking of NBC Nightly News, does Peter Jennings still bother to >> carry his green card? I don't know about the card, but last I saw, Jennings was with ABC. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 25 01:11:38 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:11:38 -0500 Subject: Donald Lance remembered Message-ID: I was very saddened to receive the news about Don. I met him a year or so after my 1968 arrival in Missouri to teach at the University of Missouri- Rolla. Don taught at the University of Missouri-Columbia, and we met at an annual meeting of the Missouri Academy of Sciences. Don was especially interested in American dialects, and I have always looked with awe at dialecticians who can tell from speaking with people what part of the country they're from. I remember two incidents of Don's ability in this regard. 1) Some twenty-five years ago I attended the linguistics section of the Missouri Academy of Science's annual meeting. There were only five or so of us at the linguistics section, all of us presenting papers, and Don's was the last. He began his paper by saying with his gentle and yet knowing grin that he could tell from the accents of all the preceding speakers what part of the country they're from. Before he could continue I protested impulsively: "I don't talk with an accent!" The reaction was instantaneous and unanimous in the room, almost as if it was scripted: "Like heck you don't!" (I really don't talk with an accent, but people in the Midwest who hear me seem to agree that I speak with a heavy New York accent.) 2) About twenty years ago a woman turned up in Columbia, Missouri with amnesia. She had no idea who she was or where she came from and assumed the name Sarah Gray, with "Gray" supposed to designate what she thought of her drab life. She was brought to the attention of the police, who wanted to locate her family but without putting out a national call for help; the call should be localized. The police were in a quandary about how to locate Ms. Gray's family, when someone drew Don Lance to their attention. Even a person with amnesia doesn't change their speech patterns, and Don was called in to speak with Ms. Gray to determine where she was from. He spoke with her a while and asked her a series of questions (e.g., "greasy" vs. "greazy") and afterwards pretty much zeroed in on where she came from; I think it was a section of the Pittsburgh or Philadelphia area; I just don't remember. Don made a recording of Ms. Gray's speech and sent it to a dialectician in whatever city he suspected she came from, and he soon received a confirming second opinion. Don gave the information to the police, who put out an announcement to the public in Ms. Gray's home base, and sure enough, at least one or two members of her family turned up. The story was remarkable enough to make one of the tabloids; I believe it was the Star. The story, sad to say, didn't have a happy ending; Ms. Gray was a deeply troubled woman and soon afterwards left Columbia. I don't think Don ever received word about her afterwards. I later asked Don to write an article explaining just how he figured out where Sarah Gray came from; what linguistic clues revealed her origin? The Star article hadn't gone into these details, and I offered to publish Don's account in my Comments on Etymology. He politely declined, however, explaining that Sarah Gray had had great hardship in her life, and he didn't want to benefit from that hardship in any way. It was a profoundly ethical decision on Don's part and emblematic of his gentle and kindly nature. I of course accepted the decision, although deep down I really would have liked to have Don's account of how he did it. Gerald Cohen From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 25 02:07:04 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:07:04 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: No offence to forensic linguists, but I believe NBC/ABC/CBS and other media wouldn't make linguistic judgements without expert advice. Maybe I should have made this more explicit. But the egg definitely is not on the face of Tom Brokaw or his staff. If I may be allowed another moment on what some may consider my hobbyhorse, the moral of this story is _The Native Speaker is Dead!_ It is just a shibboleth. But long live the native speaker. TOM PAIKEDAY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > I haven't been home since this morning, so maybe this has already been > discussed by the media, but isn't it likely that what the officials heard > as an "accent" or "broken English" in the "garbled" phone calls was simply > Jamaican Creole? We can speak of a "written accent" too, usually both > cultural and linguistic, which might explain the unfamiliar "Dear Mr. > Policeman," etc. > > At 11:41 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: > >>Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC > >>"expert"? > > > >The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, > >using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican > >locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a > >reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) > >Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard > >to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne > >Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, > >either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know > >more (or at least be told more), I suspect. > > > >L > > > >> > >>--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > >> wrote: > >> > >>>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > >>>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > >>>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > >>>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind > >>>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a > >>>recording may be available. > >>_________________________________________ > >>"We are all New Yorkers" > >> --Dominique Moisi > From harview at MONTANA.COM Fri Oct 25 03:58:28 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:58:28 -0600 Subject: (and dict coverage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > DO NOT EVER USE the "Oxford American Dictionary" (copyright 1980 or so), and > please, PLEASE do not buy it. It has a telltale red jacket in its > mass-market edition, and a yellow jacket in the trade paperback edition -- > the latter is the very same book, page-for-page, just larger trim size and > type. In fact, it is one book that I would like to see all copies of > destroyed -- that's how awful, and now woefully out-of-date, it truly is. > > For Oxford American dicts, use the ones with the BLUE jackets. AVOID the > old one (check the copyright date) with the red or the yellow jacket -- > that's the bad one. > Help! I have an OAD copyrighted 1980 but with a blue jacket which I have made available to my children in lieu of Dad's "squint-eye" OED (the little rascals seem to have lost the magnifying glass which came with it....). So should I toss it or not? How about reporting a shibboleth entry which would distinguish between the good and the bad?.... From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Oct 25 05:01:38 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:01:38 -0700 Subject: lap and length In-Reply-To: <200210250401.g9P41Zaf005835@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: My email seems to be handling the digests oddly, so I'm not sure if I actually read what everyone said about laps & lengths, but: I also equate length & lap, & use either of them when speaking about how many of them I swim. (Length seems clearer, whereas lap can be an awful lot like the "next weekend" discussion a while back.) What struck me as odd in Casper was the use of "length swimming" as a set phrase where I would use "lap swimming" instead. Like "grocery shopping". -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com Album of the Month: Catherine Irwin, Cut Yourself A Switch (Thrill Jockey, 2002) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 25 07:38:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:38:38 EDT Subject: Up "Jazz Creek" in Oregon Message-ID: A reply from Oregon. --Barry Popik Subj: Re: "Jazz Creek" naming Date: 10/24/2002 11:28:05 PM Eastern Standard Time From: jkohnen at easystreet.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Hello Barry Popik, Sorry my reply took a while--I was out of town. And I have no answer for you. I tried the standard book, "Oregon Place Names" and the Univ. of Oregon's "Atlas of...", the state "Atlas of ...", plus web sites for Clackamas County's Bull of the Woods Wilderness (the location of Jazz Creek) and Sweet Home (Linn County) where one can find Jazz Creek Reservoir (named for the same creek). You might try a question through email to http://www.sweet-home.or.us/quick_facts.html#Questions or to an Oregon history news list overland-trails at yahoogroups.com Now you've got me curious. It's surprising that there's only 2 "jazz" place names in the US. Wasn't "jazz" a slang word for making love before it was applied to a music form? (like rock and roll). When was "jazz" in use for the first time? I couldn't even find out when jazz creek was named. Many places in Oregon have names that changed, a popular name that was so persistant that it eventually replaced the "official" name, names that are corruptions of Indian or foreign words (like the word "Oregon" or "Silver" Lake rather then "Silvetry's" Lake), or an English replacement for a like-sounding word (like Willamette for the Wil-lamt). Your question is more complicated than it looks. Good luck, Patricia Kohnen From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 10:13:20 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 06:13:20 -0400 Subject: Donald Lance remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gerald Cohen posted a truly wonderful story about Don Lance. Many thanks for that. With the passing of greats like Lance and Read, not to mention Cassidy and Guralnik recently, it is a solace that we can share remembrances of what made these lexicographical giants so remarkable, and that we will still have their published work to rely on for guidance. Don Lance edited the 12th edition of Kenyon's _American Pronunciation_, to which he also added a section titled "Spectrographic Analysis of English Phonemes and Allophones". This is a monument to Don's work, and not the only one. The book was published in 1997 by George Wahr Publishing of Ann Arbor. Those who are interested in this area of linguistics and do not have it, or at least access to it, should try to get a copy. It seems it is no longer in print, but amazon shows several used copies out there. We shall miss Don Lance a lot. Frank Abate From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Oct 24 21:19:23 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:19:23 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for "realtor". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular > P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed > "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days living > in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop is > Judishooairy Square". > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:19:06 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:19:06 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <000301c27c27$e0dace40$78d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: Nope, your respelling makes this look like "transposition" (which implies "metathesis" to us speakers of the arcane tongue), but that is not the motivation here at all. What you want to note is simply insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" example as well (where k+l is the villain). dInIs >Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for "realtor". > >Bob >----- Original Message ----- >From: James A. Landau >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM >Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular > >> P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed >> "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days >living >> in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop >is >> Judishooairy Square". >> -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 25 13:34:30 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What you want to note is simply >insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >example as well (where k+l is the villain). And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also show this trend? I see a few cases of "trocular" (= "trochlear") and "cocular" (= "cochlear") on the Web. -- Doug Wilson From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:34:50 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I heard last night that Dr. Moose was born in Lexington, KY, and then moved around. I don't know if that means his parents are native to Kentucky or not. Lesa Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:57 PM -0400 10/23/02, Duane Campbell wrote: > >According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > >imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > >sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > >in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > >sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > >Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > >linguist? > > Actually, there's a forensic linguistics list that some of us > cross-subscribe to, and these questions have been discussed, with the > overall sense that (based on past experience) it would be hasty to > conclude anything about the actual nationality or native-speaker > status of the sniper based on (what we've read about) his (the > consensus is "his") messages. (The motivating factor for suspecting > non-native-status was the salutation "Dear Mr. Policeman" or whatever > it was.) > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >dialects that include this shift? > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > where he was from before that.) > > Larry From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:45:35 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:45:35 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Should we blame the inflected rats with all our verb troubles, do you think? "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > distinction? > > Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens > (freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert > opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to > comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > > "During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into > Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- > sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally > Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by > inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- > tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had > demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal > suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. > Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a > nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." > (Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > > T. M. Paikeday > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesa Dill" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > > The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on > the > > Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether > the > > person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say > native. I > > agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > > children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think > it's > > easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or > non-native. > > > > Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African > American > > English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > > latter. > > > > Lesa > > > > Duane Campbell wrote: > > > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time > or > > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > > linguist? > > > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. > Moose) > > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > D > > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:47:09 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I'm hoping that with the conclusion of the hunt for the sniper the full text of all the notes will be printed. That should make for some interesting speculations. Lesa Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Chief Moose also has /v/ for voiced (th) medially, not just finally--as in > 'other' and 'brother'. But haven't we diverged from the question about > the sniper? Is the entire threatening letter available somewhere? I > thought not, but if it is, it's quite easy to detect non-native English, in > both oral and written productions. This is indeed something forensic > linguists should be able to do. At least those of us in SLA can usually do > this, and there are plenty such experts in the DC area. > > At 01:22 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class > >African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep > >serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly > >Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater > >variant? > > > >Herb Stahlke > > > > > > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > >dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > > > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > > > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > > > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > > > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > > > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > > > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > > > where he was from before that.) > > > > > > Larry > > > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:49:58 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:49:58 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: PCness only concerns me when I'm in the classroom. It seems no matter how I explain and approach the subject and no matter which term I use, some of my students become resentful and squirm. I too prefer BEV. Do anyone else encounter this defensiveness? Lesa Beverly Flanigan wrote: > What do you mean by "the latter"? AAVE is the general usage now, but > there's nothing wrong with Black English or Ebonics either. We're not into > PCness. Personally, I favor BEV, for obvious reasons. > > At 01:23 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the > >Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the > >person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I > >agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > >children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's > >easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > > > >Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American > >English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > >latter. > > > >Lesa > > > >Duane Campbell wrote: > > > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > > linguist? > > > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > D From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 14:07:28 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:07:28 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Yep. They all do. The truth is, real human languages hate two consonants in a row, and only really shameful ones allow more. You could even argue that honest, upright human languages don't even like coda consonants, since their effect is to produce "clusters" across word boundaries. (Check the spelling and pronunciation of that last word!) dInIs >>What you want to note is simply >>insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >>transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >>more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >>example as well (where k+l is the villain). > >And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also >show this trend? > >I see a few cases of "trocular" (= "trochlear") and "cocular" (= >"cochlear") on the Web. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 14:17:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:17:47 -0400 Subject: Easy to sound like... Message-ID: THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > distinction? I completely agree and disagree. I agree. Lots of nonlinguists have folk speech routines which allow them to easily imitate "garbled, illiterate and/or non-native" speech. But this is true only if we judge their success on the basis of their own assessment of their performance and that of (some) nonlinguist others. (Perhaps that is suggested by "sound" in this earlier posting.) I disagree. "Illiterate" speech (I assume nonstandard varieties) and non-native speech (or "interlanguages," following the SLA tradition) are coherent, fully-fledged, difficult-to-master human language systems. One may say "espeak" for "speak" and have people "recognize" the Spanish influence or say "I goes" and have people think one is "speaking" African American English, but such folk imitations (interesting objects of study themselves, by the way) are not full representations of the systems (native and non-native) involved here at all, and are often simply inaccurate. I have nothing to say about folk speakers imitations of "garbled speech," but I am delighted to find a message which I can be 100% for and against. dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 25 14:23:08 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:23:08 -0400 Subject: the Big 5. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > Any of the Big 4 "college" dicts (Web New World, Random House, > Merriam-Webster, or Amer Heritage) do nicely for pron help. Though they > differ on usage and other such advice (and some other things, too), they > generally get the basic facts right most of the time. Another good choice > for prons (and other things) is the New Oxford American Dictionary, or its > abridged descendant, the just-published Oxford American College Dictionary. > Like the Big 4, the new Oxford American dicts were edited in the USA by > American lexos. And the NEW Oxford American dicts are up-to-date, having > just been completed in the past 2 years. You're too modest, Frank. Around here, we speak of the Big 5 "college" dicts, with the OACD among them. Steve Kleinedler (Senior Editor, AHD) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 25 15:06:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:06:25 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:34 AM -0400 10/25/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>What you want to note is simply >>insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >>transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >>more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >>example as well (where k+l is the villain). > >And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also >show this trend? > Don't forget "jewelery" larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 25 15:03:59 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:03:59 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0400 10/24/02, Fritz Juengling wrote: >Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. >same priciple as in basketball. The other team has a basket, or goal, and >you try to keep them from scoring into it, i.e. their basket or goal. >Fritz > Not to pile on here, but the phrase "an own goal" (in soccer) seems to confirm that the goal your keeper/goalie is guarding is indeed your own goal, not the other team's. (The phrase relates to what happens when a player inadvertently--at least one assumes it was inadvertently--knocks the ball into his own goal, scoring for the other team. This happens in basketball too, but there's no specific term for it. In hockey it happens more frequently, but I'm not sure whether "own goal" applies. My understanding is the same as most of the other commentators here: in each sport, you defend your own goal. One more piece of indirect evidence: in basketball, there's of course no goalie or keeper, but there is "goal-tending", in particular normal ("defensive") goaltending, when an opposing player's shot is blocked on the way down or swatted against the backboard, the referee calls goaltending, and the shot is allowed as if it had gone in (there are subtle rules on when it counts as goaltending and when it counts as a legitimate block). In such cases, the defender is overzealously "tending" his own goal. There is a much more rarely called "offensive goaltending" violation in which a player tries to tap in or rebound a ball in the abstract "cone" above the opposing basket, but this is clearly derivative and marked. Larry From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 15:11:40 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:11:40 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry")... Let us not forget the malady from which my late mother-in-law suffered, the often quite painful "arthuritis." --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 15:11:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:11:39 -0400 Subject: Realty/realtor Message-ID: Bob Fitzke writes, >> Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for >> "realtor". The goof I see and hear in this area is the confusion of *realty* with "reality." Our co-op corporation includes the former word, often rendered by various contractors and service providers as the latter. --Dodi Schultz From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 16:20:34 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:20:34 -0400 Subject: FW: Don Lance Message-ID: Here's another tribute to Don, this from the man who is "Mr. Placenames" in the US. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: Roger L Payne [mailto:rpayne at usgs.gov] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:07 PM To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Don Lance I have known and admired Don Lance for almost 20 years. He was a man of obvious intellect with a deliberate yet tempered approach to everything. I am sure that most know of his accomplishments in linguistics and dialectology, and perhaps in scholarly aspects of toponymy, but Don's untiring efforts were apparent in the realm of applied toponymy as well. Don's interest in applied toponymy greatly benefited the nation and the people of Missouri because Don was instrumental, if not totally, responsible for coordinating and assuring that the extensive compilation of geographic names for Missouri was accomplished in support of the National Geographic Names Data Compilation Program. He was also responsible for establishing and coordinating the Missouri State Board on Geographic Names, which speaks on behalf of the State in matters of toponymy, and has accomplished much under Don's leadership. Don orchestrated all of this from "behind the scenes" in many cases, allowing others to participate fully. In 2000, Don hosted the annual meeting of the Council of Geographic Names Authorities as another demonstration of his untiring dedication. I shall miss him as a friend and a colleague, and the wide community of the study of all aspects of language will miss him. Roger L. Payne Executive Secretary, U.S. Board on Geographic Names From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 25 16:59:26 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:59:26 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't quite follow this. The motivation may be to break up a consonant cluster (as other posted examples indicate), but the result in this particular case is a metathesis. I.e., it isn't *[rilt at r] > [ril at t@r] but [ri at lt@r] > [ril at t@r]. PMc --On Friday, October 25, 2002 9:19 AM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Nope, your respelling makes this look like "transposition" (which > implies "metathesis" to us speakers of the arcane tongue), but that > is not the motivation here at all. What you want to note is simply > insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant > transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly > more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" > example as well (where k+l is the villain). > > dInIs > > > >> Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for >> "realtor". >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James A. Landau >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular >> >>> P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed >>> "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days >> living >>> in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station >>> stop >> is >>> Judishooairy Square". >>> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 > e-mail: preston at msu.edu > phone: (517) 353-9290 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 25 17:03:40 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:03:40 -0700 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: A question for the list. When referring to the seasons: 1) Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) spring/summer/fall/winter"? 2) Does your usage vary according to the season you are referring to (e.g., "in the spring" but "in winter," etc.)? Or 3) Are "the" and 0 in free variation in this construction? I'm talking just about the simple prepositional phrase, not about extensions such as "in the spring of '96." Thanks for any "imput." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Oct 25 18:23:06 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:23:06 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Dodi: > Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: > > >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry")... > > Let us not forget the malady from which my late mother-in-law suffered, the > often quite painful "arthuritis." There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 25 19:51:47 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:51:47 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <002301c27c53$96d20030$cfbb9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: Not mention, Ac at me for the food store Acme markets. Ed --- Anne Gilbert wrote: > Dodi: > > > Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: > > > > >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= > "masonry")... > > > > Let us not forget the malady from which my late > mother-in-law suffered, > the > > often quite painful "arthuritis." > > There are also "jewelery", "libary", and > "choresteral" > Anne G > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release > Date: 10/21/2002 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 25 20:19:56 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:19:56 -0700 Subject: culinary/recipe sources Message-ID: a friend just pointed me to Chef Louis Szathmary's collection of recipe booklets: http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Louis/chefpam-a-j.html (just in case barry and the other food vocabulary folks didn't already know about this). arnold From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Fri Oct 25 20:34:03 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:34:03 -0400 Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: Aren't you blurring the distinction between the location where scoring takes place, i.e, the "goal" and the name of the score, itself, i.e., "goal"? ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:03 AM Subject: Re: soccer usages > Not to pile on here, but the phrase "an own goal" (in soccer) seems > to confirm that the goal your keeper/goalie is guarding is indeed > your own goal, not the other team's. (The phrase relates to what > happens when a player inadvertently--at least one assumes it was > inadvertently--knocks the ball into his own goal, scoring for the > other team. This happens in basketball too, but there's no specific > term for it. In hockey it happens more frequently, but I'm not sure > whether "own goal" applies. My understanding is the same as most of > the other commentators here: in each sport, you defend your own goal. > > One more piece of indirect evidence: in basketball, there's of > course no goalie or keeper, but there is "goal-tending", in > particular normal ("defensive") goaltending, when an opposing > player's shot is blocked on the way down or swatted against the > backboard, the referee calls goaltending, and the shot is allowed as > if it had gone in (there are subtle rules on when it counts as > goaltending and when it counts as a legitimate block). In such > cases, the defender is overzealously "tending" his own goal. There > is a much more rarely called "offensive goaltending" violation in > which a player tries to tap in or rebound a ball in the abstract > "cone" above the opposing basket, but this is clearly derivative and > marked. > > Larry > From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 22:12:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:12:47 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My favorite was told to me by Chuck Fillmore. He was talking to a young man who, obviously having been corrected on NOO ky@ l at r, told Chuck about his new pair of b@ NOK lee @rz. Rima From gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU Fri Oct 25 22:20:48 2002 From: gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:20:48 -0700 Subject: ANS Hotel in New York (MLA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have made local arrangements for ANS during MLA, and the hotel we're at wants to sell more beds, and so is offering a good deal. They would like us to TELL ALL FRIENDS AND ENEMIES ABOUT THE GOOD DEAL AT THE MILLENNIUM HOTEL. There is no limit on the number of rooms available. The Millennium has excellent location. At four stars, it's a step up in grade from most MLA hotels. And at $105 single OR double, it's the best deal in town. If you know people going to New York for Dec. 25-30, they are welcome too. Just call the Millennium, and say you're with the "American Name Society." Here are the details: Millennium on Broadway 145 West 44th Street New York, NY 10036 Phone: 212-768-4400 1-800-622-5569 Fax: 212-768-0847 Steps from Times Square. Featuring 752 finely appointed guest rooms, available in three types: Millennium Classic, Millennium Club, and Millennium Premier. Includes conference center, theater, restaurant, business center, fitness center, and room service. -- Grant W. Smith, Immediate Past President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Vice Pres., Intl. Council Onomastic Sciences Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 250 Patterson Hall Cheney, WA 99004-2430 www.class.ewu.edu/class/engl/gsmith/home.html From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Oct 26 00:29:20 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:29:20 -0500 Subject: culinary/recipe sources In-Reply-To: <200210252019.g9PKJuI19518@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >a friend just pointed me to Chef Louis Szathmary's collection >of recipe booklets: > http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Louis/chefpam-a-j.html > >(just in case barry and the other food vocabulary folks didn't >already know about this). > >arnold There is also a collection of Chef Szathmary's books at the University of Chicago--I helped with the catalog searches. It's in Special Collections. Barbara From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Oct 26 02:34:43 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:34:43 -0400 Subject: Don Lance Message-ID: Colleagues, Visitation for Don Lance will be tomorrow (Saturday, October 26), beginning at 12:30 at the Memorial Funeral Home located at 1217 Business Loop 70 W in Columbia, Missouri with the service scheduled for 2:00 PM. ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 04:14:18 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:14:18 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: Peter McGraw asks, >> Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) >> spring/summer/fall/winter"? Sometimes. Sound and sentence rhythm are the guidelines. Either construction is correct. >> Does your usage vary according to the season you are referring to >> (e.g., "in the spring" but "in winter," etc.)? Now that I think about it: Maybe! No consistency but, yes, perhaps "the" used more with single-syllable seasons (spring, fall) than with summer, autumn, winter. --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 04:14:20 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:14:20 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Anne Gilbert observes that, >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, "choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for "l," "a" for "o"). --Dodi Schultz From harview at MONTANA.COM Sat Oct 26 04:30:57 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:30:57 -0600 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: <408280.1035540220@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > A question for the list. > > When referring to the seasons: > > 1) Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) > spring/summer/fall/winter"? > Interesting. "The" seems pretty strongly-bound with spring and fall. To say just 'in spring' sounds strange to me. I want to say either 'in the spring' or 'in springtime'. 'In the fall' is almost obligatory; there is no 'falltime'. 'In summer' seems slightly more possible but still somewhat awkward without the 'the'. However, 'in winter' sounds perfectly correct to my ear. Might it be due to the [perceived] lengths of these seasons? It is very natural to say 'over the course of a winter', somewhat less so to use that phrase with a summer, and completely out of the question to use it with spring or fall. I am reporting with a frostbitten ear attuned to 40-plus years of living in the far northern reaches of Montana..... Scott Swanson Pendroy, Montana From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 26 04:25:26 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:25:26 -0700 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: <408280.1035540220@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: After thinking about what I say for a bit, it seems I use "the" when it's something limited and specific. " I'm going to France in the spring." "I'll be attending college in the fall." When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. " In spring a young man's fancy... " "It snows a lot in winter." Rima From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Oct 26 10:24:38 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:24:38 -0400 Subject: Job Announcement Message-ID: The Department of English, Foreign Language, & Philosophy at Morehead State University is seeking applications for a tenure-track position as Assistant Professor of English beginning August 2003. Responsibilities: Teach upper- division and graduate English language and linguistics courses, composition, general education linguistics, and occasional DL course assignments. Qualifications: Completion of requirements for the Ph.D. in linguistics or in English language and linguistics by May 2003; evidence of strong teaching ability; evidence of scholarly productivity or potential; commitment to teaching, research, and service. Background in syntax, psycho-linguistics, and/or language acquisition preferred. Review of applications will begin December 15, 2002 and will continue until position is filled. To apply submit letter of application, C.V., three letters of recommendation, transcripts, and a writing sample by December 2, 2002 to: Office of Human Resources, Attn: Linguistics #858, Morehead State University, HM 101, Morehead, KY 40351. To apply on-line, visit: http://www.moreheadstate.edu/prospects/jobapp.html and attach the required application materials. MSU is EO/AA employer. ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Oct 26 13:40:39 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:40:39 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <200210260014_MC3-1-1768-9EB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: >Please, let's keep sounds and letters apart. First, "libary" has two motivations: 1) To avoid the repetition of similar (usually marked) sounds (as US English /r/ is). "Library" with one /r/ is a happier word. This is often cited as "dissimilation." 2) In "library" the /b/ and /r/ form a cluster of consonants. As noted in earlier postings, civilized languages hate clusters (onset clusters less than final, but, they are still dispreferred). Therefore, "library" does fit, to a certain extent, our earlier posting. In other words, you can get rid of a cluster by inserting a /@/ (or other "default" vowel of the language) between the two consonants or you can simply waste one of them. Second, "chorestoral." 1) The "a" for "o" in the spelling may signify nothing about the pronunciation. Since I am an open-o ~ /a/ distinguisher, I, of course, chuckle when people end the final syllable in /al/ (especially when it is Northern Cities Shifted /a/, which nears my /æ/). But we're into consonants in this thread. 2) The /r/ for /l/ substitution has two possible sources: a) For younger speakers, for speakers from non /r/~/l/ dsitinguishing languages, and (related to the next), and from speech error, these "unstable" sounds, very close to one another in articulatory production, may simply be switched (or "neither" realized, causing the hearer to hear first one and then the other). Note that, according to their experience, many US English speakers say "Asian speakers can't say their /r/s," but another hearer group just as strongly asserts they can't say their /l/s. For many such speakers, both groups are right. b) Long-range Regressive Assimilation is the grown-up term for what might could happen to make the /r/ for /l/ here a permanent, native-speaker, non- speech-error practice. The /r/ being present as the onset only one syllable in the "future" in the articualtion of this word causes the speaker to "preprepare" for it and deliver it "early." This is related to the "error" offered in a) above since this may be a source of speech error, but, of course, assimilation happens over longer historical periods to establish new phonemic patterns in words. dInIs >Anne Gilbert observes that, > > >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" > >Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. > >I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been >discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or >syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, >"choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for >"l," "a" for "o"). > >--Dodi Schultz -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Oct 26 13:42:53 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:42:53 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect region! I can't say "It snows a lot in winter." Too bad we don't know more about the regional-social distribution of article use (except for the well-known Transatlantic stuff like "in hospital," etc...). dInIs >After thinking about what I say for a bit, it seems I use "the" when >it's something limited and specific. " I'm going to France in the >spring." "I'll be attending college in the fall." When it's ongoing >and general, I don't use the definite article. " In spring a young >man's fancy... " "It snows a lot in winter." > >Rima -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 19:42:52 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:42:52 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: Rima McKinzey, citing Tennyson, says, >> When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. "In >> spring a young man's fancy..." What the poet, attuned to the rhythm of the line, actually wrote was: "In the spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love." (Locksley Hall, 1842) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 26 20:05:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:05:33 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <200210260014_MC3-1-1768-9EB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: >Anne Gilbert observes that, > > >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" > >Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. Yup, me. LH > >I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been >discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or >syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, >"choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for >"l," "a" for "o"). > >--Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 26 23:57:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:57:24 -0400 Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) Message-ID: LOBSTER NEWBURG (continued) From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 17 April 1899, pg. 6, col. 5: "Years ago," says Colonel Henry Watterson, "when I belonged to a coterie of gay young cavaliers in New-York City, I designed the dish now generally known as lobster a la Newburg. I gave my idea to "Charlie" Delmonico, and he saw that it was carried to successful execution. John McCullough was one of us, and to John is due the appearance of broiled live lobster in the East. He had caught on to that epicurean way of preparing it during his stay in California. In after years I attained some fame as a manipulator of certain dishes, terrapin perhaps being my masterpiece. Curiously enough, all the newspaper stories have given me credit for being an artist in the preparation of oyster stews, but my experience with the bivalves is limited. I always left them to John Chamberlain, while he would not allow any one but myself to attend to the diamond backs. I can't begin to tell you how much of this ingredient or the exact quantity of the other to put with the terrapin, but I know how to blend them all in an instinctive sort of way, and I've never yet found the man who didn't admit that my cooking was of the highest order." (Henry Watterson was the editor of the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL. I've mentioned him before in connection with "Windy City" and "Gin Rickey." I was not familiar with his culinary abilities--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- BEEFSTEAK JOHNS; NO NEW YORK CHINESE RESTAURANTS From the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 4 August 1895, pg. 19, col. 5: _STRANGE RESTUARANTS._ _BROOKLYN HAS MANY PECULIAR EATING HOUSES._ _Some of These Are Not Calculated to_ _Put a Fine Edge on Fastidious Appe-_ _tites--Italian, Hebrew, Swedish and_ _German Tastes Appealed To._ (...)(Col. 6--ed.) Scattered all over the city there are a large number of restaurants commonly known as "Beefsteak Johns." In these places a regular dinner is sold for 15 or 20 cents and single dishes, like roast beef with potato, for 8 and 10 cents, according to the piece. The regular dinner consists of a bowl of soup, a cut of roast beef, lamb, veal or corned beef and cabbage, a cup of tea or coffee and for dessert pie or pudding. Places of this kind are to be found on Myrtle avenue, upper nad lower Fulton street, lower Atlantic avenue, and in the neighborhood of all the ferries, car stables and the large factories. (...) There are no Chinese restaurants in the city, although there was one started at 97 Broadway about two years ago. It was run on the same style as those on Mott and Pell streets in New York. The place was closed very soon after opening, as it did not attract enough customers to make it pay. (No Chinese restaurants in New York in 1895? See "Chinese Restaurants in New York," LESLIE'S ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY, 9 January 1896, pg. 28--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD MISC. Gersh Kuntzman's "Metro Gnome," to appear in Monday's NEW YORK POST, is about the "fried twinkie." MADE ME LAUGH: From THE ONION, 24-30 October 2002: _Motorist Overwhelmed By_ _Array Of Jerky Choices_ --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: WINDY CITY (or, YOU correct the TIMES OF LONDON) Sport Ascot less Royal as parade takes a day off Cornelius Lysaght 10/25/2002 The Times of London News International Final 4 43 (Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2002) (...) CHICAGO'S Windy City nickname, a reference to the changeable nature of the hot air spouted by local worthies rather than the lakeside weather, has rarely been so apt. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 00:32:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:32:58 -0400 Subject: Lobster a la Newburg (NYT, 1894) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 12 August 1894, pg. 13: _BLOCK ISLAND BLUEFISHING_ (...) The island is a favorite resort of Henry Watterson... (...) The tradition is that Sam Ward and Ben Werneberg conjointly invented that delicious preparation, "lobster a la Newburg," one day at Delmonico's, in a fit of desperation in thinking how to cook lobster in some other form than that incepted. The truth is that Sam Ward invented the dish here, in one of his numerous and characteristic experiments in gastronomy. Returning to New-York, he divulged the secret ot the genial epicure, the late Ben Wernberg, who thereafter called for it so often at Delmonico's in Broad Street, that the dish became popular on the menu as "lobster a la Wernberg." It is well known that shortly after, in consequence of some misunderstanding about a stock transaction between Ben and the late Charley Delmonico, the name was changed to the now universally-popular "lobster a la Newburg," because of the similarity of the name. It is customary for touring Englishmen to believe that, because of this nomenclature of the delightful dish, all lobsters come from Newburg. From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Sun Oct 27 00:38:43 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:38:43 -0700 Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) Message-ID: No Chinese restaurants in the city? The city was Brooklyn, not NYC. The quote was from the Brooklyn Eagle for whom the "city" was Brooklyn. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) > LOBSTER NEWBURG (continued) > > From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 17 April 1899, pg. 6, col. 5: > > "Years ago," says Colonel Henry Watterson, "when I belonged to a coterie of gay young cavaliers in New-York City, I designed the dish now generally known as lobster a la Newburg. I gave my idea to "Charlie" Delmonico, and he saw that it was carried to successful execution. John McCullough was one of us, and to John is due the appearance of broiled live lobster in the East. He had caught on to that epicurean way of preparing it during his stay in California. In after years I attained some fame as a manipulator of certain dishes, terrapin perhaps being my masterpiece. Curiously enough, all the newspaper stories have given me credit for being an artist in the preparation of oyster stews, but my experience with the bivalves is limited. I always left them to John Chamberlain, while he would not allow any one but myself to attend to the diamond backs. I can't begin to tell you how much of this ingredient or the exact quantity of the other to put with the terrapin, but I know how to blend them all in an instinctive sort of way, and I've never yet found the man who didn't admit that my cooking was of the highest order." > > (Henry Watterson was the editor of the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL. I've mentioned him before in connection with "Windy City" and "Gin Rickey." I was not familiar with his culinary abilities--ed.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > BEEFSTEAK JOHNS; NO NEW YORK CHINESE RESTAURANTS > > From the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 4 August 1895, pg. 19, col. 5: > > _STRANGE RESTUARANTS._ > _BROOKLYN HAS MANY PECULIAR EATING HOUSES._ > _Some of These Are Not Calculated to_ > _Put a Fine Edge on Fastidious Appe-_ > _tites--Italian, Hebrew, Swedish and_ > _German Tastes Appealed To._ > (...)(Col. 6--ed.) > Scattered all over the city there are a large number of restaurants commonly known as "Beefsteak Johns." In these places a regular dinner is sold for 15 or 20 cents and single dishes, like roast beef with potato, for 8 and 10 cents, according to the piece. The regular dinner consists of a bowl of soup, a cut of roast beef, lamb, veal or corned beef and cabbage, a cup of tea or coffee and for dessert pie or pudding. Places of this kind are to be found on Myrtle avenue, upper nad lower Fulton street, lower Atlantic avenue, and in the neighborhood of all the ferries, car stables and the large factories. > (...) > There are no Chinese restaurants in the city, although there was one started at 97 Broadway about two years ago. It was run on the same style as those on Mott and Pell streets in New York. The place was closed very soon after opening, as it did not attract enough customers to make it pay. > > (No Chinese restaurants in New York in 1895? See "Chinese Restaurants in New York," LESLIE'S ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY, 9 January 1896, pg. 28--ed.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > FOOD MISC. > > Gersh Kuntzman's "Metro Gnome," to appear in Monday's NEW YORK POST, is about the "fried twinkie." > MADE ME LAUGH: From THE ONION, 24-30 October 2002: > > _Motorist Overwhelmed By_ > _Array Of Jerky Choices_ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > O.T.: WINDY CITY (or, YOU correct the TIMES OF LONDON) > > Sport > Ascot less Royal as parade takes a day off > Cornelius Lysaght > 10/25/2002 > The Times of London > News International > Final 4 > 43 > (Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2002) > (...) > CHICAGO'S Windy City nickname, a reference to the changeable nature of the hot air spouted by local worthies rather than the lakeside weather, has rarely been so apt. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 17:59:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:59:24 EST Subject: Manhattan's Newest Tables (DEPARTURES, Nov/Dec 2002) Message-ID: Yes, I forgot that I was in the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE of 1895. New York City joined together in 1898. I don't know what hour this is, so years also confuse me.."Beefsteak John" is not in the RHHDAS or in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. The earliest citation in the NEW YORK TIMES is 1884, and it wasn't then a generic. There was a fire at Beefsteak John's, 241 Bowery. I leave for a post-sniper trip to Washington, DC (Library of Congress) in about 24 hours. The F.Y.I. in the City section of today's NEW YORK TIMES mentions our Fred Shapiro. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DEPARTURES magazine is published by American Express and comes "free" with the cost of my card. This November/December 2002 issue has an article about Vermont by playwright David Mamet, a blurb by and a nice photo of NEW YORK TIMES food writer Amanda Hesser, a NYC restaurant article by Mimi Sheraton that I'll get to in detail. DEPARTURES really is a kick. It breathes money. Vera Wang and Christina Ong and other big and trendy names and stories are tossed about. There are ads for expensive watches, cars, cruises. It's like 9/11 never happened. Everyone here has money, but no one looks old. No security issues are discussed in detail in any story. Everyone jet-sets around the world and opens hotels in Bali (as did Ong) like nothing's changed. You'd never know that New York City is bankrupt. The magazine is written as if Jackie Kennedy is still alive--how many readers IS that? I read it for all the food and wine I'll never eat. I've made $1,000 the past 25 years of tireless work, fer cryin' out loud. Pg. 52: _Kiwi Superyachts_. (The article also calls them "uber-yachts"--ed.) Pg. 72: ...tea-flavored chocolate candy--Sadaharu puts _matcha_, the powdered green-tea leaf used in Japanese tea ceremonies, into delicate mille-feuilles and odd-looking but delicious green-glazed eclairs. (Photo of "Green-tea mille-feuilles"--ed.) Pg. 213, col. 3 (Cuyo, Argentina): Indeed, in such imaginatively executed dishes as _cordero de Tupungato_ (succulent stewed lamb), _lomo del Albanil_ ("bricklayer's beef"), and _chivito de Bariloche_ (kid goat), there's a sense of the provincial boy proudly bringing the flavors of the outback to his sophisticated pals in the city. Pp. 214-216: ...a platter of _queso y membrillo_ ((an end-of-meal treat of cheese with quince paste)... Pg. 165: _THE EPICUREAN_ _Manhattan's Newest Tables_ _Through a difficult year, the city has more than persevered--it has thrived._ _Mimi Sheraton takes a measure of the recovery in a crop of new restaurants._ (More than persevered? THRIVED? Huge commercial property tax increases will be announced in two months. The 1999 internet boom is over. What planet is this magazine on?--ed.) Pg. 166 (At Flamma Osteria): Skip the unimpressive, overly herbed antipasti in favor of a shared pasta, such as _spaghetti chittarra_ (cut on a guitarlike rack) with tomatoes and basil; _garganelli_, the Emiliana quill shapes, with prosciutto and truffle butter; or Bolognese _stracci_, ribbons of spinach pasta tossed with braised rabbit, cream, and Parmesan. Then move on to grilled Mediterranean _daurade_ with borlotti beans... (Pg. 168--ed.) Elizabeth Katz's best desserts are fresh-fruit sorbets, crisp ricotta beignets called _crocchette_, and her chocolate-hazelnut _torta_. Pg. 168 (At Il Gasttopardo's): If not those, then order one of the pastas, like the spaghetti chitarra with a sauce of fresh tomatoes, the _paccheri_ (rigatoni) with a meaty Genovese sauce sweetned with simmered onions, or the _orecchiette_ ("little ears") with tomato and minced shellfish. Pg. 170 (At Kai): Chef Hitoshi Kagawa offers Japanese _kaiseki_ (a table d'hote menu, but really meaning a gathering of friends)... Pg. 170 (At Da Silvano Cantinetta): The owner, Silvano Marchetto, makes sure that the simple Tuscan fare is perfectly rendered in standout dishes such as the chickpea appetizer fired with black pepper, the bread-and-tomato salad _panzanella_, and every pasta, in particular the meat-sauced _penne strascicate_. The Livornese fish stew _cacciucco_ is convincing despite an overly dense tomato broth... Pg. 172 (At Noche): ...skewered-meat _anticuchos_... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 20:36:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:36:45 -0500 Subject: Donald Lance Obituary Message-ID: This web address for Donald Lance information was given just now on the ANS-L list. I knew him a little bit. (I did "Show Me" and he did "Missouri"--perhaps Gerald Cohen can edit a book? Lance encouraged me to visit the Rio Grande Valley for the "fajita.") Here is an obituary and more reflections: http://www2.truman.edu/~adavis/mfs1.html From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 20:57:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:57:30 -0500 Subject: Kaiseki (1972); Jerquee Message-ID: KAISEKI I just checked OED for "kaiseki." No hits. Yeesh! "Kaiseki" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). Google has about 13,300 hits! KAISEKI RYORI SAIKO HOCHO by Gyokuzan Hokyo 1805 (Earliest hit on OCLC WorldCat database. In Japanese--ed.) KAISEKI: ZEN TASTES IN JAPANESE COOKING by Kaichi Tsuji Kyoto: Kodansha International 1972 (Earliest English hit on the OCLC WorldCat database. I'll have to look for it in a Japanese cooking book where it's not in the title--ed.) 9 May 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 25 ad: The Finest Restaurant In Japan Is at the Waldorf _Chef's Gourmet Kaiseki_ $22 Tsuki-dashi... Zensai... Soup of the day... Sashimi... Nimono... Sunomono... Tempura... Yakimono... Akadashi... Dessert... INAGIKU 111 East 49th Street 25 April 1980, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C14 ad: Kaiseki: an exquisite experience that unfolds course by course with traditional grace and subtlety. MITSUKOSHI 465 Park Avenue at 57th Street (There are 40 NEW YORK TIMES hits pre-1986, but 71 hits from 1986-1998. C'mon, OED--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- JERQUEE I don't know if this was in that ONION story about the motorist "amazed by the array of jerky choices." "Jerquee" is vegetarian "jerky." See the web site at www.soybean.com. It's on Google Groups since 1997. It doesn't appear to be generic beyond this one product, however. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 27 23:23:25 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: Manhattan's Newest Tables (DEPARTURES, Nov/Dec 2002) In-Reply-To: <44.2871485a.2aed837c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The F.Y.I. in the City section of today's NEW YORK TIMES mentions our Fred > Shapiro. And our Barry Popik. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 28 01:05:38 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:05:38 -0800 Subject: Odd Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, This question may seem a little absurd, but part of my class project is to participate in this listserv. My question is about the origin of a phrase. I was talking to my mother and without realizing, I replied to something she said with "Believe you me." Now, like I said, it's a little odd, but it's something I've heard my whole life. I was wondering if anyone knew where it originated. If it's just slang for Eastern KY or something else. And, do you use punctuation and where? Thanks, Annie Bush __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 28 01:07:18 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:07:18 -0800 Subject: Odd Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Also, another thing I hear from mostly my grandmother and great grandmother is "I swan." I've found myself saying this. Just wondering if anyone could tell me about this one, also. Thanks, Annie Bush __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Oct 27 22:31:56 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:31:56 -0400 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: _Believe you me_ appears in OEDs with dates of 1926, 1943, 1951, 1967, none of which are quotations from Missouri. And, _believe_ is not an entry in either DARE or DA. The first quote (1926) is from the Society for Pure English Tracts. The second is from the writing of E.M. Delafield (Elizabeth M. Dashwood, an English author). The OEDs suggests, by listing it with _believe me_, that it is an extension from _believe me_ (OEDs, 1646). Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Oct 27 22:41:59 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:41:59 -0400 Subject: I swan Message-ID: This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from Michigan Connecticut Wisconsin Kansas Indiana Illinois Iowa (central, northern, and s.w.) New York Nebraska Arkansas New Hampshire Alabama New England Maine West Virginia Missouri Texas. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 03:59:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:59:26 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) Message-ID: What is the earliest date for "moot court"? OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book published about 70 years later. The Library of Congress's American Memory database has a large volume of Jefferson's work online now. There are _no_ "moot court" hits on that database! OED's next citation is 1899--111 years later! Obviously, they're working on this. What do they have? OCLC WorldCat has a book titled JOURNAL OF THE LAW-SCHOOL, AND THE MOOT-COURT ATTACHED TO IT AT NEEDHAM, IN VIRGINIA (1821). Was this before the Harvard or Yale Law Schools? From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 28 04:34:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:34:20 -0700 Subject: "the" with season names (fwd) Message-ID: dInIs, I could say "It snows a lot in winter" if I lived in Michigan, but I can't say it here in southern Arizona. Rudy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:42:53 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: In (the?) season x I suspect region! I can't say "It snows a lot in winter." Too bad we don't know more about the regional-social distribution of article use (except for the well-known Transatlantic stuff like "in hospital," etc...). dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:42:52 -0400 From: Dodi Schultz Subject: In (the?) season x Rima McKinzey, citing Tennyson, says, >> When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. "In >> spring a young man's fancy..." What the poet, attuned to the rhythm of the line, actually wrote was: "In the spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love." (Locksley Hall, 1842) --Dodi Schultz ------------------------------ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 13:22:39 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:22:39 EST Subject: "unsub" Message-ID: >From an article on the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing Philadelphia Inquirer 27 October 2002 page C3 column 5 "I can't tell you how many thousands and thousands of man-hours went into pursuing every lead that came in on unsub number two," [former FBI Deputy Director] Kennedy said, using the FBI shorthand for unidentified subject. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 13:45:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:45:19 EST Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: In a message dated 10/23/02 1:28:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU writes: > Believe it or not, there are lots of people > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" > . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases as "light at > the end > of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when > Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty old codgers, Is "Fifth Column" another such phrase which can be considered to have dropped out of the language (in this case, all European languages) to appear forevermore only in Fred Shapiro quotation books? (Unless someone decides to revive Hemingway's stage play of that name.) I ask this because a friend of mine is writing the sequel to a 1964 novel in which the phrase "Fifth Column" was freely used, and his sequel requires strict adherence to 1964 language. Yet would his readers recognize the phrase? - Jim Landau P.S. Come to think of it, today's college students must be pretty shaky on what the "Iron Curtain" was. From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Oct 28 13:50:50 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:50:50 -0500 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: I hear it here in NW NC "I swain" long a-- SDG ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 8:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Odd Question _Believe you me_ appears in OEDs with dates of 1926, 1943, 1951, 1967, none of which are quotations from Missouri. And, _believe_ is not an entry in either DARE or DA. The first quote (1926) is from the Society for Pure English Tracts. The second is from the writing of E.M. Delafield (Elizabeth M. Dashwood, an English author). The OEDs suggests, by listing it with _believe me_, that it is an extension from _believe me_ (OEDs, 1646). Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Mon Oct 28 14:04:29 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:04:29 -0600 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: That one I know--except I heard swany. It's a euphemism for I swear, usually used by those whose religious beliefs look down on swearing. That is, saying "I swear." Other swearing was still used liberally at least "in my parts." Lesa Dill Hollie B wrote: > Hi, > > Also, another thing I hear from mostly my grandmother > and great grandmother is "I swan." I've found myself > saying this. Just wondering if anyone could tell me > about this one, also. > > Thanks, > Annie Bush > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 28 15:49:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:49:30 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) In-Reply-To: <742DF0D1.6A5EB8E7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 10:59:26PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by >Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book >published about 70 years later. The Library of Congress's >American Memory database has a large volume of Jefferson's >work online now. There are _no_ "moot court" hits on that >database! So, all that means is that the cite we have is from a work not in the American Memory database. > OED's next citation is 1899--111 years later! Obviously, >they're working on this. What do they have? The revised entry for _moot_ will be appearing in the December update. However, I don't think it will be too drastically changed. When a word appears as a compound of this sort, we usually wouldn't give more than a cite or two per century. If it had sufficient complexities we'd upgrade the compound to a headword, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. A pre-1788 cite would be welcomed, though. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 16:01:26 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:01:26 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: <38.3062e9ec.2aee996f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember > > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or was a slogan cooked up by promoters? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 16:23:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:23:54 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0500 10/28/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember >> > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" > >Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or >was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > >Fred Shapiro > No, but I've always heard it (and seen it) as "thrilla in Manila". No liaison. Larry From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 28 16:21:32 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:21:32 -0000 Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > Fred Shapiro > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: It will be a killer And a chiller And a thrilla When I get the gorilla In Manila. That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on the poster) may be taken to back this up. Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 16:50:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:50:51 -0500 Subject: Espresso, Biscotti (Baedeker, 1928) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress in Washington. I read the November 2002 SAVEUR on the way down. There's a lead story about Clementine Paddleford. The SAVEUR senior editor had never heard of her until two years ago. To research the article, the editor got her expenses paid to visit Kansas. That's lifetime earnings to me (with no expenses paid)...There are stories on sukiyaki, gorditas--all stuff I did first cites for. Then there's a cover story on New York State apples called "Big Apples." No way that anyone on the staff has heard of my work. Maybe I don't work hard enough? No "five-way chilli" ad in the Cincinnati phonebooks I requested so far. Maybe the Key West phonebooks will give me some pie. For "moot court," add a "moot court competition." I doubt that Thomas Jefferson coined "moot court" in 1788. What's the first entry in a law dictionary, and why isn't that cited? Maybe those OED-lawyer guys in that March 2002 ABA JOURNAL article have something? --------------------------------------------------------------- ITALY FROM THE ALPS TO NAPLES ABRIDGED HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELERS by Karl Baedeker Third Revised Edition Leipzig: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1928 For some reason, there doesn't seem to be other ITALY editions between 1911 and 1928. This is the same stuff, but two years earlier than the 1930 that I'd posted. Pg. XXI: _Risotto_ (_alla milanese_), rich stewed rice (with saffron). Pg. XXII: _Pane_, bread. Pg. XXII: Coffee is generally drunk black (_caffe_ or _caffe nero_; 60 c.--1 1/2 _L_ per cup); it is often prepared specially (_espresso_) for each customer and is then excellent. "Caffe _e_ latte" means coffe and milk served separately; a large cup of _caffe latte_ (cafe au lait) costs 1-1 1/2 _L._ (a _cappuccino_, or small cup, is cheaper), a cup of chocolate (-cioccolata_) 1 1/2-2 _L._, biscuits (_biscotti_) and little cakes (_paste_) 40, 60, 80 c. each. Pg. 238 (Rome Restaurants, Cafes): ...at these two grilling ("rosticcerie") a specialty... ..._Alfredo_, Via della Scrofa 104a (pl. C, 3)... (Doesn't Alfredo's have a specialty??--ed.) From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 28 16:58:50 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:58:50 -0800 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: <38.3062e9ec.2aee996f@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Believe it or not, there are lots of people > > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only > don't remember > > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or > "Cassius Clay" > > . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases > as "light at > > the end > > of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when > > Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty > old codgers, > > Is "Fifth Column" another such phrase which can be considered > to have dropped > out of the language (in this case, all European languages) to appear > forevermore only in Fred Shapiro quotation books? Gooja turns up over 15,000 hits for "fifth column" on Usenet. I don't think the phrase is dead yet (lots of uses in reference to al-Qaeda). Glancing at the first page of hits, it seems as if people are using it naturally and not in quotes or asking what it means (although I'm sure a fair amount of that happens as well). I used to get asked where this phrase comes from quite frequently--until I put it up on my site a few months ago. The phrase seems to be familiar and the sense clear to most, but the original reference is obscure to many. "Light at the end of the tunnel" a Vietnam-era phrase? The OED2 has a 1922 cite with that exact phrasing (actually it's "daylight") and an 1879 George Eliot citation using the metaphor, but not the exact phrase. I also hear "I like Ike" occasionally, usually when someone wants to evoke the 50s. I would think that large numbers of those who weren't around then (like me) instantly recognize the phrase. "When Harry dropped the bomb" I have never heard, but the reference is clear to anyone with even a little American History in their background (although my first reaction was to conflate it with "When Harry Met Sally.") > P.S. Come to think of it, today's college students must be > pretty shaky on > what the "Iron Curtain" was. Heavy metal band? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 17:03:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:03:37 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) In-Reply-To: <20021028154930.GA23668@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 10:59:26PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by > >Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book > >published about 70 years later. It is common for the OED to cite standard editions of older authors, which may have been published much later than the original texts. The alternative for something like a Jefferson letter would be verifying such quotes in manuscript collections around the world, which clearly is impracticable (people who publish reference works have to think of practicability, without which reference works would never be published). One of the great things about the OED is that if they take a quotation from a later edition they will cite it precisely to the later edition, as opposed to most people who take quotations from later editions but don't tell you so. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 17:26:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:26:26 -0500 Subject: Stromboli (1954, 1959) Message-ID: I don't recall finding a very early "stromboli" in NEW YORK TIMES full text. I'll get to Cincinnati "chili" in a minute. THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY CITIZENS TELEPHONE COMPANY 1959 Pg. 598, col. 1: _PASQUALE'S_ menas "Food Fun for Everyone"! Pizza--Peewee, Medium, Large Sandwiches--Stromboli Steak, Hoggie, Tunabella, Fish Meat Ball Hoggie Casseroles--Ravioli, Spaghetti, Chicken Cacciatore Chicken Basket--Side Dishes (30 Carry Out locations--ed.) >From US Patent & Trademark Office records: Word Mark STROMBOLI Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: SANDWICH. FIRST USE: 19540701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19540701 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73323903 Filing Date 0000 Owner (APPLICANT) AQUINO, MICHAEL BURGER ROYAL INDIVIDUAL E. 6115 TRENT RD. SPOKANE WASHINGTON 99206 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 8, 1982 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 18:16:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:16:04 -0500 Subject: Cincinnati Chili (1964 phonebook) Message-ID: "Dixie Chili" (1929) advertises itself as the oldest "Cincinnati Chili" here. Many "chili" ads, but the multiple ways are not mentioned...I asked for a 1969 book, but was given the White Pages....Pg. 601 has an ad for FRISCH'S, of the "BIG BOY" and "BRAWNY LAD" sandwiches. THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY CITIZENS TELEPHONE COMPANY 1964 Pg. 602, col. 2: Angelo's Chili Parlor 2600 Benton Cov Pg. 602, col. 4: ART'S CHILI KITCHEN Best Chili in Town 4908 Whetsel Pg. 603, col. 2: Bellevue Chili Parlor 519 Fairfld... Bell's Tom Chili Prlr 10 W Benson... Benson Chili & Grill 509 W Benson... Pg. 604, col. 1: BRENTWOOD CHILI 8542 Winton... Bridgetown Chili 6548 Glnwy Pg. 604, cols. 3-4 ad: FAMOUS-ORIGINAL _EMPRESS CHILI_ "TRY OUR FAMOUS FROZEN CHILI WITH BEANS OR SPAGHETTI" Pg. 605, col. 3: CHILI BOWL ELMWOOD'S FINEST SINCE 1938 CHILI THE "WAY" YOU LIKE IT Chili Spaghetti--Coney's--Short Orders 6110 VINE Pg. 605, col. 4: CHILI KITCHEN NO I 6014 VINE CHILI TIME RESTRNT 4720 Vine Chili Villa 9944 Reading Pg. 606, col. 1: Cleves Chili Plr 32 S Miami Pg. 607, col. 1: Crystal Chili Parlor 843 Monmth Npt Pg. 607, col. 3: Delhi Chili 4835 Delhi Pg. 607, col. 4: DIXIE CHILI FAMOUS SINCE '29 (3 locations--ed.) Pg. 608, col. 1: EAGLE CHILI PARLOR 624 6th Day Pg. 608, col. 2: EDDIE'S PEPPER POD CHILI BAR 2179 CENTRAL Pg. 608, col. 4: Emperor Chili Parlor 4735 Montgy... EMPIRE CHILI PRLR... EMPRESS CHILI CO INC... Pg. 610, col. 1: Gladys' Chile Bar 2707 Vine... Glenway Chili Plr 5010 Glnwy Pg. 610, col. 2: GROESBECK CHILI 7625 Colrain... GUY'S CHILI PRLR & RESTRNT 9272 Colombs Cinti... HAMBURGER HEAVEN GOLD STAR CHILI (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 610, col. 4: Hilltop Chili Prlr 4010 Glnwy Pg. 611, col. 4: Ky Chili Prlr 339 Pike Cov... Kollman's Chili 2444 Vine Pg. 612, col. 1: Latonia Chili (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 612, col. 2: LIBERTY CHILI 3938 Sprng Grv... LITTLE MEXICO CHILI PRLR FAMOUS ORIGINAL CHILI Coney Island--Chili Spaghetti 1348 Vine Pg. 612, col. 3: LOU'S CHILI PARLOR 5842 Hamilton Ave Pg. 613, col. 1: Midway Chili 3 E 3 Npt Pg. 613, col. 2: MURRAY'S CHILI BAR 4409 1/2 Montgy... Naegel's Creamy Whip & Chili Prlr 4303 Kellgg Pg. 613, col. 3: NEW-WAY CHILI (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 613, col. 4: Park Chili Parlor 4160 Hamilton Pg. 614, col. 3: Price Hill Chili 4920 Glnwy Pg. 615, col. 3: Shorty's Chili Kitchen Inc. 3158 Madsn Pg. 615, col. 4: SKYLINE CHILI CO EST. 1949 Cincinnati's Chili Specialists (5 locations--ed.)... Smile Chili Parlr 4419 Montgy Pg. 616, col. 1: Stone's Chili Prlr 3605 Harisn... SUNSET CHILI 814 Vine Pg. 616, col. 4: VIDAS CHILI TIME RESTRNT 4720 Vine... VINCE'S CHILI KITCHN 6014 Vine Pg. 617, col. 2: White Oak Chili & Restrnt 5880 Cheviot From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 28 18:19:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:19:08 -0500 Subject: "unsub" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #>From an article on the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing #Philadelphia Inquirer 27 October 2002 page C3 column 5 # #"I can't tell you how many thousands and thousands of man-hours went into #pursuing every lead that came in on unsub number two," [former FBI Deputy #Director] Kennedy said, using the FBI shorthand for unidentified subject. # Whereas with list servers like ADS-L it means "unsubscribe, cancel subscription". I've used it that way in speech. -- Mark A. Mandel From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Oct 28 18:33:32 2002 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:33:32 -0600 Subject: ANS Hotel in New York (MLA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/25/02 4:20 PM, Grant Smith at gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU wrote: > I have made local arrangements for ANS during MLA, and the hotel > we're at wants to sell more beds, and so is offering a good deal. > They would like us to > > TELL ALL FRIENDS AND ENEMIES ABOUT THE GOOD DEAL AT THE MILLENNIUM HOTEL. > > There is no limit on the number of rooms available. The Millennium > has excellent location. At four stars, it's a step up in grade from > most MLA hotels. And at $105 single OR double, it's the best deal in > town. > > If you know people going to New York for Dec. 25-30, they are welcome > too. Just call the Millennium, and say you're with the "American > Name Society." > > Here are the details: > > Millennium on Broadway > 145 West 44th Street > New York, NY 10036 > Phone: 212-768-4400 > 1-800-622-5569 > Fax: 212-768-0847 > Steps from Times Square. Featuring 752 finely appointed guest rooms, > available in three types: Millennium Classic, Millennium Club, and > Millennium Premier. Includes conference center, theater, restaurant, > business center, fitness center, and room service. > -- > Grant W. Smith, Immediate Past President Phone: 509-359-6023 > American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 > Vice Pres., Intl. Council Onomastic Sciences > Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu > Eastern Washington University, MS-25 > 250 Patterson Hall > Cheney, WA 99004-2430 > www.class.ewu.edu/class/engl/gsmith/home.html this is to let you know that Don Lance passed away and was not able to pass this information on to others. Please see that the information gets to those who need it. With sincere regrets, Carolyn Lance, Sister-in-law. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 18:46:02 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:46:02 -0500 Subject: Maltese Dog (1838) Message-ID: DESCRIPTION OF MALTA AND GOZO by George Percy Badger Malta: Printing and Lithography by M. Weiss 1838 Pg. 59: The race of Maltese dogs, so much renowned in Europe, and called _bichons_ by Buffon in his Natural History, is now nearly extinct. They are very small, with long glistening hair reaching down to the feet, a face covered with the same, and a turned-up nose. I acknowledge that I can see but very little beauty in these dwarfish creatures, and am led to think it is only their rarity which fixes their value at so high a price; they are sometimes sold for forty dollars. (The revised OED has 1860. I was asked about this in Malta...WHERE ARE TEN OF MY BOOKS! IT'S BEEN FOUR HOURS! I DIDN'T MAKE THIS TRIP JUST FOR MALTESE DOGS AND ESPRESSO!--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 28 18:54:16 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:54:16 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled at. Herb Stahlke > > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) > p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first > delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: > > It will be a killer > And a chiller > And a thrilla > When I get the gorilla > In Manila. > > That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on > the poster) may be taken to back this up. > > Jonathon Green > From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 28 19:34:54 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:34:54 -0500 Subject: Maltese Dog (1838) In-Reply-To: <0DBAD1BF.1CD8523D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 01:46:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DESCRIPTION OF MALTA AND GOZO > by George Percy Badger > Malta: Printing and Lithography by M. Weiss > 1838 > > Pg. 59: > The race of Maltese dogs, so much renowned in Europe, and called _bichons_ by Buffon in his Natural History, is now nearly extinct. They are very small, with long glistening hair reaching down to the feet, a face covered with the same, and a turned-up nose. I acknowledge that I can see but very little beauty in these dwarfish creatures, and am led to think it is only their rarity which fixes their value at so high a price; they are sometimes sold for forty dollars. > > (The revised OED has 1860. I was asked about this in Malta...WHERE ARE TEN OF MY BOOKS! IT'S BEEN FOUR HOURS! I DIDN'T MAKE THIS TRIP JUST FOR MALTESE DOGS AND ESPRESSO!--ed.) Actually, that's not accurate. The revised OED has 1860 for _Maltese_ meaning 'a dog of the Maltese breed'. For the compound _Maltese dog_ itself, which is what you're quoting above, OED3 has 1754. Jesse Sheidlower OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 20:19:00 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:19:00 EST Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: In a message dated 10/28/02 1:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled > at. > > > It will be a killer > > And a chiller > > And a thrilla > > When I get the gorilla > > In Manila. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. "Doggerel" refers to the literary quality (or lack of it) of the verse being considered. "Rap" refers to the style of rhythm and melody. The words of a given rap performance may constitute a poem of high literary merit, or may constitute doggeral, but either way the performance is "rap". Oh, yes, a friend named Stan Rosenthal perpetrated the following "It will be a killa in Manila," said Muhammed Ali, predictably. - Jim Landau From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Oct 28 20:55:52 2002 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:55:52 -0500 Subject: in (the) season, in (the) hospital Message-ID: Hi folks: Isn't this also a largely British vs. American usage issue? Sort like "hospital" and "university." Cheers, Peter Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com Visit us online at http://www.Merriam-Webster.com From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 28 21:28:20 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:28:20 -0800 Subject: I swan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An expanded version is heard as well, and probably well beyond northern Arkansas: "I swanee to my soul!" and "Well, I do swan!" I'd guess it's a euphemism for "swear," which of course no proper person would want to admit doing. Peter Richardson On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Barnhart wrote: > This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated > it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from > > Michigan > Connecticut > Wisconsin > Kansas > Indiana > Illinois > Iowa > (central, northern, and s.w.) New York > Nebraska > Arkansas > New Hampshire > Alabama > New England > Maine > West Virginia > Missouri > Texas. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Mon Oct 28 22:22:05 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:22:05 -0500 Subject: I swan Message-ID: "AH SWAN" = "I SWOON" Peter Richardson wrote: > An expanded version is heard as well, and probably well beyond northern > Arkansas: "I swanee to my soul!" and "Well, I do swan!" I'd guess it's a > euphemism for "swear," which of course no proper person would want to > admit doing. > > Peter Richardson > > On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Barnhart wrote: > > > This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated > > it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from > > > > Michigan > > Connecticut > > Wisconsin > > Kansas > > Indiana > > Illinois > > Iowa > > (central, northern, and s.w.) New York > > Nebraska > > Arkansas > > New Hampshire > > Alabama > > New England > > Maine > > West Virginia > > Missouri > > Texas. > > > > Regards, > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > > barnhart at highlands.com > > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 23:02:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:02:20 -0500 Subject: New Joe Special, Mongolian Barbecue (1963) Message-ID: GOURMET INTERNATIONAL'S RECOMMENDED RESTAURANTS OF SAN FRANCISCO edited by Leonce Picot Fort Lauderdale, FL: Gourmet International 1963 Pg. 84: NEW JOE'S 540 Broadway, S. F. (EX 2-9979) Right in the heart of the North Beach belt. If you're a people watcher and dig characters you'll enjoy this one. On other menus around town you will find Joe's Special--a kind of scrambled omelette with spinach, eggs, hamburger and onions; this is where this favorite San Francisco dish was created. Try it late at night. Pg. 94: _GOBI INN_ The Gobi Inn is a treasure trove of adventures in Chinese cuisine, offering the less known Northern Chinese dishes as well as the more familiar Cantonese preparations. With keen insight Mr. Chen and Mr. Lee most astutuely have incorporated high adventure into their menu through the introduction of the Ghenghis Khan Fire Pot and Kublai Khan barbecue. A method of food perparation that dates back to the days of the nomadic Mongolians that roved the Gobi Desert, the Fire Pot itself is a utensil which has comprised a portable kitchen to the orientals for centuries. (...) (Pg. 95--ed.) The _Kublai Khan_ barbecue is a mixture of beef mixed with Chinese parsley and/or green onions and spiked with any combination of exotic sauces available such as soy sauce, sweet Chinese cooking wine, hot garlic sauce and a very hot chili oil. Served with Chinese buns, this may be eaten as a sandwich. (...) MISSION BETWEEN OCEAN AND 7TH, CARMEL BY THE SEA. (Sorry for looking at the wrong "Maltese dog." That's where the OED screen was when it flipped to LATER....MY BOOKS ARRIVED _SIX HOURS_ LATER. THE BELT BETWEEN THE JEFFERSON AND MADISON BUILDINGS BROKE WITH MY BOOKS ON IT. LIBRARY SUPERVISORS ARE NICE, BUT I DON'T ONE TO SEE ONE AGAIN ANYTIME SOON...AOL wasn't working, either...They have the BOSTON PHOENIX from 1980 only, so there goes the Steve's ice cream "mix-ins" and "Joe Six Pack"...No Key West phone directories for "key lime pie"...No British materials here to antedate "vegan" and "vegetarian," though I tried--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 29 00:44:52 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:44:52 -0500 Subject: Fwd: internship positions? Message-ID: > Hello, > > My name is Amelia Ashton. I'm currently a sophomore at Stanford > University majoring in English. I'm writing to inquire about possible > internship opportunities this summer. Are there any in your company > you could tell me about please? > > Thank you, > Amelia Ashton > aashton at stanford.edu From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 29 04:36:32 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:36:32 -0500 Subject: LINGUIST: Historical lexicography Message-ID: The following is from the LINGUIST List, and is probably of interest to some of our members too. ----- begin forwarded message ----- -------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:31:03 -0000 From: "Coleman, Dr J.M." Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Dear all, As a result of the International Conference on Historical Lexicography and Lexicology in Leicester this summer, we have established (rather informally) a new scholarly society: the International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology. If you are interested in joining (it's free), please visit our web-page. http://www.le.ac.uk/ee/jmc21/ishll.html Apologies for cross-posting. Dr Julie Coleman Senior Lecturer English Department University of Leicester University Road Leicester. LE1 7RH UK phone: + 44(0)116 252 2635 fax: + 44(0)116 252 2065 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2773 ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 10:20:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:20:09 EST Subject: Kringle (1936); Stromboli (1957); Tcheburek (1914); Fondue (1829) Message-ID: KRINGLE DARE has a 1950 date for this Danish specialty, found mostly at Racine, Wisconsin. I had found one "kringle" citation in the 1800s (not American). As usual, the phonebook trick worked. I looked under "Bakers." October 1936, RACINE CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 12, col. 1: _UPTOWN BAKERY_ The Place with the Kringels on the Window If you want real Danish Pastry this is the place to get it ALEX HENRIKSEN, Prop. 1338 Washingtonav...Jackson-7072 ("Kringel"...The first of many ads by this bakery--ed.) May 1941, RACINE CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 13, col. 1: Lincoln Bakery Specializing in Danish Kringles 1815 State...Jackson-5461 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BISMARK, LONG JOHN July 1951, RACINE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: _DIXIE CREAM DONUTS_ CHOCOLATE-COCOANUT POWDERED-PLAIN Also LONG JOHNS-BISMARKS CRUELLERS-CINNAMON BUNS CALL 2-3757 220 MAIN ST. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- STROMBOLI Supposedly from Philadelphia, and I'll have to re-check that. This is a little earlier than I'[d just posted from Cincinnati. 1957, THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY, pg. 591, col. 1 ad: _PASQUALE'S_ (...) STROMBOLI STEAK SANDWICHES (Many locations--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TCHEBUREK RUSSIA WITH TEHERAN, PORT ARTHUR, AND PEKING HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Lepizig: Karl Baedeker 1914 I wanted to get the ITALY (1895) to see if "cappuccino" is there, but of course, it was not on the Library of Congress shelf. I spotted this Baedeker I don't think I looked at before. It covers a huge amount of ground (Russia, Finland, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, and China). Unfortunately, there is no descriptive food section like for ITALY. Pg. 202 (FINLAND): "Knackebrod" is bread in thin, hard, round slices. Pg. 405 (THE CRIMEA): Among the Tartar national dishes may be mentioned tcheburek (a kind of meat-pie), and shashluik (mutton roasted on a spit). Pg. 466 (TIFLIS, GEORGIA): Among the national dishes are the following: shashliuk (p. 405), basturma (beef roasted on the spit), tchikhirtma (soup with mutton or fowl, saffron, and other spices), loko (boiled fish from the Kura), and plov (the Turkish pilau). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FONDUE VEGETABLE COOKERY, WITH AN INTRODUCTION RECOMMENDING ABSTINENCE FROM ANIMAL FOOD & INTOXICATING LIQUORS 3d ed. London: Sold by H. Phillips 1829 This book was in the Library of Congress's Rare Book Room. I didn't find "vegetarian" here, but perhaps someone can use the "fondue." (See archives for other "fondues" of this period--ed.) Pg. 74: _287. Fondue._ Take a half a pound of good grated cheese, the crumb of a roll steeped in hot milk, a piece of butter the size of a walnut, the yolks of three eggs well beaten, mix all together very well, then add the whites, beaten to a froth, immediately before you put it in the oven. Bake it in a quick oven; it has the appearance of a pudding, and is excellent. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 15:58:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:58:43 EST Subject: Maltese Cook Book (1968) Message-ID: The NYPL has only two entries for "Cookery, Maltese." The earliest is 1997. This was the earliest in the LOC. It's still not very early--no date is on the booklet, but it is stamped May 3, 1968. There are also no page numbers. Two trips ago, in the Ukraine, it was commented to me that a measure of how ready a place is for tourism is if it has an English language cookbook for sale. Well... MALTESE COOK BOOK sponsored by the Government Tourist Board of Malta (1968) Rabbit Pie... Stuffed Vegetable Marrow (Qara Baghli mimli)... Meat Olives (Bragoli)... (OED?--ed.) Date Slices (Imgaret)... Dendici a la Romane... Ravioli a la Maltese... Aljotta (Zuppa di Pesce Ramia Bay)... (OED?--ed.) Baby Mackerel Fritters (Pulpetta tal-makku)... Stuffed Egg Plant (Aubergine)(Brungiel mimli fil-Forn)... Mediterranean Rice... Cuttle Fish or Octopus Stew (Qarnhita)... Maltese Timpana... (OED?--ed.) Stuffed Chicken (Tigiega mimlija)... Vegetable Soup with Meat (Kawlata)... Fresh Cheese and Rikotta Soup (Soppa ta' l-Armia)... Rabbit (La Kampn jola)... Goulash a la Maltese... Hot Cheese-Cakes (Pastizzi Shan) INGREDIENTS 3/4 pound Ricotta 2 eggs Salt Pepper Milk Puff paste (OED must enter "pastizzi/pastizzeria"--ed.) Xkunvat (A Maltese sweet)...(I don't remember seeing it--ed.) Stuffed Maltese Tomatoes... Lsmpuki Pie... Cheese Pie (Torta Tal-Haxu)... Vegetable Soup (Minestra)...(The revised OED entry does not mention Malta, where this is a national dish--ed.) Makkarunelli Bl-Rikotta with Tomato Sauce... From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 15:59:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:59:55 EST Subject: "unsub" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/28/02 1:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > with list servers like ADS-L ["unsub"] means "unsubscribe, cancel > subscription". I've used it that way in speech. This usage can be traced back, facetiously of course, to George Orwell's _1984_ in which, for some reason I don't recall, the totalitarians deplored English's lack of exact antonyms. To cure this, they created words like "ungood". Back to "unsubcribe". There is a subtle difference between "to unsubscribe" and "to cancel a subscription". If you paid for a subscription to something and you CANCEL that subscription, then most likely you will either not be reimbursed or you will be reimbursed but only for the unused portion of your subscription. That is, cancelling a paid subscription does NOT restore the status quo ante, specifically, you are out of pocket a certain amount of money. Of course there are things you can subscribe to for free, and it is always possible that the manager of the subscription list may, figuring the gain in good will outweighs the financial loss, grant you an unsolicited full refund. However, when you "cancel a subscription" there is the CONNOTATION that you have undergone some permanent change of state, which the cancellation has modified but not removed. "To unsubscribe" has a different connotation, namely that no permanent change has been performed or "rendered" upon you. At least in computer jargon or among speakers influenced by computer jargon, that is the connotation. If you "unsubscribe", then the subcription manager wipes the slate clean and no permanent change of state has occurred to you (specifically, if you paid, then you receive a full refund, with interest, so that your finances are unaffected.) For an analogy, consider the difference between a divorce, which recognizes that the marriage has failed and takes actions to settle financial and legal results of the marriage, and an annulment which (lawyers PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) states that the marriage never existed. I am told that a child born of an annulled marriage will have a father but no legal mother or vice versa (supposedly a number of years ago there was one state in which annulments were much easier to get than divorces, resulting in a number of children of the annulled marriages who legally had only one parent.) Yes, I'm taking a personal opinion on connotations into unreasonable reaches, but I'd like to use the above to illustrate something. Bureaucracies have always had the problem of changing an action once that action had been performed. Ending a marriage by divorce is an obvious example. In the Middle Ages, in fact until the French Revolution, marriages among royal and noble houses were frequently used as the formal means to commit two houses to an alliance etc---"Tu, felix Austria, nube". But what if the alliance fell apart or new events made a different alliance necessary? It would be necessary to have a divorce to formally end the alliance (and, more practically, to produce eligible marriage partners for the new alliance.) However, the Catholic Church did not allow divorces, but there was a legal loophole: a marriage could be annulled if it were found to have been within "the prohibited degrees of consanguinity". The royal houses of Europe were of course so interbred that the consanguinity rule could most often be used (but probably due to Spanish influence in Rome, the Pope refused to let Henry VIII use that argument to get rid of Catherine of Aragon). Any bureaucracy faces daily the problem of taking an action already performed and not only reversing the action but also restoring the status quo ante. This means that some bureaucrat (for a major action, a large team of bureaucrats) has to pull all the papers, make the necessary corrections, etc---a less routine process than filling out and filing all the papers on the original action. Now a properly programmed computer is, among other things, the perfect bureaucracy. Any transaction performed (e.g. adding you to a listserve) can be reversed and the status quo ante restored (removing you from the listserve. If you never posted to the list, not only will the listserve have no record of your existence, neither will the list archives). Since computers are perfect bureaucracies, there is a need for a term to describe such a routine perfect reversal of a transaction. There are in fact two such terms, or in fact sets of terms.. The first set, which is not used by the general public, has only one member: "backing out a transaction." The second set consists of various transaction-describing verbs preceded, 1984-style, but the prefix "un-". Examples: undo, undelete, unperform, and of course unsubscribe. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. My favorite bureaucratic word: "to non-concur". "I non-concur with this document" = "I disagree with the statements in this document, and if you publish this document as currently written it is over my written objection." Should this usage be classified as a "fossilized split infinitive"? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 16:28:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:28:10 EST Subject: Cooking School (1874, 1865); Brownies (1894); Chicken a la Maryland (1894) Message-ID: I've been going through the Sunday "Affairs of the Household" column in the NEW YORK EVENING POST. I'm looking for "brownies" and "club sandwiches" and "fudge" and a little more. I suggested that it be passed along to Rupert Murdoch that he digitize the entire NEW YORK POST and TIMES of London and make them available to scholars, but no one listens to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- COOKING SCHOOL OED has no entry for "cooking school"? 10 November 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 20, col. 5: To Miss Juliet Corson of this city belongsthe honor of having established the first cooking-school in the United States, and of originating the idea of instructing women in domestic affairs in general. It was in 1874 that Miss Corson began her work, and in 1875 the idea was taken up in the West, where a Miss Allen organized a school of household science in the Industrial University at Champaign, Ill. In 1877 similar work was begun in the Kansas State Agricultural College. Other beginnings in the East and West having the same aims in view were the establishment of a course of teaching in scientific cooking in Lasell Seminary in 1877, under the tuition of Miss Parloa; the opening of a cooking-school in Boston in 1879, and of one in Chicago in 1881. The Chicago school soon became very popular, and its instructor, Mrs. Emma P. Ewing, one of the most able and interesting teachers of cooking in the country, was invited in 1882 to establish a summer cooking-school at Chautauqua. Later, Mrs. Ewing established a "School of Domestic Economy" in Iowa Agricultural College. 7 April 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: The "Academy" (Prof. Bolot's "Cooking Academy"--ed.) comprises the second floor of the building No. 90 Fourth avenue. (...) The Professor is a political refugee, and when he came here ten years ago, saw the necessity of a cooking school, but, being unable to speak English, could not carry on his idea until the present time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BROWNIES Still looking, but this, in the food/domestic affairs column, perhaps shows that they didn't exist in 1894. 14 July 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 18, col. 6: One meets a new "brownie" at every turn. One of the first to produce Mr. Palmer Cox's funny little creatures in visible form was the woman who made the brownie dolls, soon so popular at the Woman's Exchange. Then the fairy folks were graven in silver and gold and, handsomely enameled, sold for cotillion favors and tennis prizes. Now some one in the name of art has produced them life-size, and they are used to ornament the grounds of a beautiful estate in a well-known suburb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA MARYLAND The revised OED has 1896, from the BOSTON COOKING SCHOOL COOK BOOK. I have several "Chicken a la Maryland" in my files (1880s?)--it was a very popular dish--but in the meantime... 12 May 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 20, col. 6: Baked chicken with a sauce a la Maryland is delicious for a luncheon or a course at a spring dinner. The chicken should be cleaned, wiped with a damp cloth, cut into portions, rolled in beaten egg, and then in fine dry bread crumbs. Bake in a deep dish or pan that has been well buttered, until a rich brown and tender. To prevent the meat from drying, baste occasionally with melted butter. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 29 16:36:46 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:36:46 -0500 Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Message-ID: >From LINGUIST List # 13.2775 http://linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-2773.html ====================== Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:31:03 -0000 From: Coleman, Dr J.M. Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Dear all, As a result of the International Conference on Historical Lexicography and Lexicology in Leicester this summer, we have established (rather informally) a new scholarly society: the International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology. If you are interested in joining (it's free), please visit our web-page. http://www.le.ac.uk/ee/jmc21/ishll.html Apologies for cross-posting. Dr Julie Coleman Senior Lecturer English Department University of Leicester University Road Leicester. LE1 7RH UK phone: + 44(0)116 252 2635 fax: + 44(0)116 252 2065 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 29 17:22:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:22:20 -0500 Subject: "unsub" In-Reply-To: <1b9.8943d9e.2af00a7b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #This usage can be traced back, facetiously of course, to George Orwell's #_1984_ in which, for some reason I don't recall, the totalitarians deplored #English's lack of exact antonyms. To cure this, they created words like #"ungood". [...] #Now a properly programmed computer is, among other things, the perfect #bureaucracy. Any transaction performed (e.g. adding you to a listserve) can #be reversed and the status quo ante restored (removing you from the #listserve. If you never posted to the list, not only will the listserve have #no record of your existence, neither will the list archives). "Who controls the present controls the past. Who controls the past controls the future." -- Mark A. Mandel From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Tue Oct 29 19:38:30 2002 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:38:30 -0600 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? Message-ID: Dear ADS list friends: First, thanks for all your great responses re: "Texas -- It's Like A Whole Other Country" issue. I will be using some of your comments in an upcoming column, and will certainly send it along via e-mail. But meantime, I thought the story below (pasted in, and a link to the site) might be of interest to some of y'all, as we say in San Antone. (We really don't say "San Antone," FYI) I liked the last graph, in which a fairly convincing-sounding neologism (or just a goof-up by whomever wrote this for WOAI Radio or Clear Channel, its parent network) -- "Percention." I doubt it has been used as a word yet, but perhaps it could make a handy contraction for a percent of perception, such as an opinion poll? As in: "An ounce of percention is worth a pound of cure." Ciao, Susan Yerkes http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=51A134E0-A410-4D51-AE51 -EC854F293996 A Texas Accent Could Help You Land a Job LAST UPDATE: 10/29/2002 Want to land that dream job? Then start polishing up your Texas accent. Researchers at the University of North Texas recently selected people who speak in ten distinct regional accents, Texas, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, North Carolina, Minnesota, California, Boston, Chicago, and New Jersey. They were given prepared statements to read, and read them in front of 86 managers, who judged them on the bases of qualities they would seek out in they were hiring, including honesty, education, intelligence, and assertiveness. Among the managers from Texas, the "Texas" speaker ranked first, and among non-Texan managers the Texan ranked third, behind speakers from Minnesota and California, giving the Texas candidate the overall highest score. Researcher Dr. Dianne Markley tells 1200 WOAI news this may have something to do with the fact that a Texan is in the White House. "Leaders are influential in how we think about our spoken language," she said. In all panels the speaker with the "New Jersey" accent ranked lowest, and she says you can blame 'The Sopranos.' "That New York, New Jersey should has often been tagged with that 'gangster, mobster' connection," she said. Markley described the 'Texas' accent as including 'dropping the "g" from words ending in "ing"' and pronouncing "get" as "git." She says since all speakers were asked to deliver a prepared test, regionalisms like 'y'all' were not included in the consideration. She says 'accent discrimination' continues to exist, despite the development of a more national culture, shaped by television, over the past thirty years, with speakers from Minnesota and Boston being rated as educated and intelligent, while speakers from Georgia and Louisiana being considered less intelligent and lazy. "That's the main reason I did this study, to show that 'accent prejudice' still exists, and to make people aware that that prejudice could be helping you to make a bad decision," Markley said. She points out that the public impression of accents changes through time, depending not only on who is in the White House, but what role the particular culture has on the national consciousness. Texas accents were also very highly regarded in the early sixties, during the heyday of John Wayne, who by the way was born in Iowa, and waned in the early eighties, in the days of the hit TV show "Dallas." She says the 86 'hirers' were not told which accent was being delivered by which person, but she says the accents were generally identified, with the New Jersey and Texas accents identified most frequently, and the California, which Markley called the 'plain American' and Minnesota accent being less readily identified. "Unlike race or sex, it is still acceptable to discriminate against somebody on the basis of accent," she says. All of the 86 "hirers" in the test were men. Markley says the next step will be to do similar research with women, and see if their percentions differ. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 21:13:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:13:34 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) Message-ID: A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR MODERN LAWS by Tho. Blount The Third Edition In the SAVOY: Printed by Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling 1717 _Moot_ (from Sax. Motian(?), To treat or handle) is well understood at the Inns of Court to be that Exercise of Arguing of Cases, which young _Barrasters_ and Students perform at certain Times, for the better enabling them for Practice and Defence of Client's Causes. The Place where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from the Sax Mopeal(?). In the Inns of Court there is a _Bailiff_ or _Surveyor of the Moots_, who is yearly chosen by the Bench, to appoint the _Mootmen_ for the Inns of Chancery, and to keep Accompt of the Performance of Exercises both there and in the House. See _Orig. Juriciales_, _fol._ 212. _Moothouse-Court:_ So the Hundred Court of _Bingham_ in _Nottinghamshire_ is called, and the Place where 'tis held is called the _Moothouse-Pit_. _Antiq. of Nottinghamshire_, _fol._ 71,4. _Mootmen_, are those that argue Readers Cases (called also _Moot-Cases_) in the Houses of _CHancery_, both in Terms and in Vacations. _Coke's Rep._ 3 _Par. in Proaemio_. ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Tue Oct 29 21:30:17 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:30:17 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) Message-ID: http://66.1911encyclopedia.org/M/ME/MEETING.htm MEETING (from “to meet,” to come together, assemble, 0. Eng. mëtan ; cf. Du. moeten, Swed. möta, Goth. gamotjan, &c., derivatives of the Teut. word for a meeting, seen in 0. Eng. mötf moot, an assembly of the people; cf. witanagemot), a gathering together of persons for the purpose of discussion or for the transaction of business. Public meetings may be either those of statutory bodies or assemblies of persons called together for social, political or other purposes. In the case of statutory bodies, by-laws usually fix the quorum necessary to constitute a legal meeting. That of limited companies may be either by reference to the capital held, or by a fixed quorum or one in proportion to the number of shareholders. It has been held that in the case of a company it takes at least two persons to constitute a meeting (Sharp v. Daws, 1886, 2 Q.B.D. 26). In the case of public meetings for social, political or other purposes no quorum is necessary. They may be held, if they are for a lawful purpose, in any place, on any day and at any hour, provided they satisfy certain statutory provisions or by-laws made under the authority of a statute for the safety of persons attending such meetings. If, however, a meeting is held in the street and it causes an obstruction those convening the meeting may be proceeded against for obstructing the highway. The control of a meeting and the subjects to be discussed are entirely witl~in the discretion of those convening it, and whether the meeting is open to the public without payment, or subject to a charge or to membership of a specified body or society, those present are there merely by virtue of a licence of the convenérs, which licence may be revoked at any time. The person whose licence is revoked may be requested to withdraw from the meeting, and on his refusal may be ejected with such force as is necessary. If he employs violence to those removing him he commits a breach of the peace for which he may be given into custody. An important English act has dealt for the first time with the disturbance of a public meeting. The Public Meeting Act 19o8 enacted that any person who at a lawful public meeting acts in a disorderly manner for the purpose of preventing the transaction of the business for which the meeting was called together shall be guilty of an offence, and if the offence is committed at a political meeting held~ in any parliamentary constituency between the issue and return of a writ, the offence is made an illegal practice within the meaning of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act 1883. Any person who incites another to commit the offence is equally guilty. A public meeting is usually controlled by a chairman, who may be appointed by the conveners or elected by the meeting itself. On the chairman falls the duty of preserving order, of calling on persons to speak, deciding points of order, of putting questions to the meeting for decision, and declaring the result and other incidental matters. In England it is illegal, by a statute of George III. (Seditious Meetings Act 1817), - to hold a public meeting in the open air within I m. of Westminster Hall during the sitting of Parliament. See C. P. Blackwell’s Law of Meetings (1910). Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR MODERN LAWS > by Tho. Blount > The Third Edition > In the SAVOY: Printed by Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling > 1717 > > _Moot_ (from Sax. Motian(?), To treat or handle) is well understood at the Inns of Court to be that Exercise of Arguing of Cases, which young _Barrasters_ and Students perform at certain Times, for the better enabling them for Practice and Defence of Client's Causes. The Place where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from the Sax Mopeal(?). In the Inns of Court there is a _Bailiff_ or _Surveyor of the Moots_, who is yearly chosen by the Bench, to appoint the _Mootmen_ for the Inns of Chancery, and to keep Accompt of the Performance of Exercises both there and in the House. See _Orig. Juriciales_, _fol._ 212. > > _Moothouse-Court:_ So the Hundred Court of _Bingham_ in _Nottinghamshire_ is called, and the Place where 'tis held is called the _Moothouse-Pit_. _Antiq. of Nottinghamshire_, _fol._ 71,4. > > _Mootmen_, are those that argue Readers Cases (called also _Moot-Cases_) in the Houses of _CHancery_, both in Terms and in Vacations. _Coke's Rep._ 3 _Par. in Proaemio_. > > ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 21:53:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:53:03 -0500 Subject: Sugar in/on Snow (Vermont food/festival term) Message-ID: I'm working on "sugar on/in snow," a Vermont term. What does DARE have? The American memory database turns up this as the best/only hit. I'll discuss the NEW YORK TIMES hits later: American Life Histories: Manuscripts from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1940 [Sugar Bush Farmer] --------------------------------------------------------------- ORIGINAL MSS. OR FIELD NOTES (Check one) PUB. Living Lore in New England (Vermont) TITLE Sugar Bush Farmer {Begin handwritten} # 2 {End handwritten} WRITER {Begin handwritten} [??] {End handwritten} DATE WDS. pp. 20 THE VERMONT FARMER The Sugar Bush The sugar season is about over. It has been short and sweet this year, but Ezra is satisfied. There have been three excellent runs when the ground has frozen at night and the cold frost fingers have clutched at the flow in the huge maple trees and stalled the rising sap; and the warm spring sun has loosened the paralyzing grasp and the sticky sweetness has risen to drop, drop, drop with tiny splashings making a chorus in the still reaches of the arched woods. One night a wild wind rose and brought with it marching myriads of {Begin deleted text} sugar {End deleted text} snow {Begin inserted text} {Begin handwritten} flakes {End handwritten} {End inserted text} {Begin deleted text} in {End deleted text} a plump white army. It thickened and clung, coating all with {Begin deleted text} sticky flakes {End deleted text} {Begin inserted text} {Begin handwritten} crystals {End handwritten} {End inserted text} . It was a good sign and was fulfilled by a fine run the next day. Ezra always chuckled when he thought of sugar snow. The first time they had mentioned it to Bobby, the child had been fascinated. A little later they had found him in the yard, head up-tilted and small mouth wide, catching the big flakes and savoring them with a puzzled expression on his round features. His disgust was deep and resentful when he found "it wasn't even sweet" and Ezra made it up to him with an extra sugar cake. The women have their place in sugarin'. They prepare the extra meals and hearty lunches which must go to the sugar house when a run is on. Many nights Ed and Ezra have stayed there tending the fire and keeping up with the gathering sap. There is a couch where they took turns catching cat naps. Then, too, the women folk have full charge of the stirrin'-off and -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {Page image} {Begin page no. 18} making of the fancy sugar cakes. When the men think they have about the best run of sap, that which will make up the lightest sugar cakes, they pass the word along and Ma calls a "stirrin'-off bee." All the women gather at the sugar house armed with huge spoons and milk pans. There is a long bench against one wall and there they stand in a busy row, tongues wagging against the clatter of spoon on pan, and beat, beat, beat; the heavy amber syrup smooths to creamy thick stuff which must be poured at exactly the right moment into the ranks of tin molds which are waiting ready. A little is stirred off earlier, before the syrup gets too thick, to make Ma some maple cream. She always celebrates the sugar season with a beautiful maple cake, frosted with maple cream and bursting with butternuts. The sugar cakes stand all night to cool and next morning Ma and Marthy spend a while wrapping and packing them in neat boxes. Ezra, through the years, has worked up a personal market for both syrup and sugar cakes. He packs, boxes, or cans his products according to their individual needs and sends them direct to the customer. His products are good and his list grows as friend tells friend from year to year. Some years he has barely enough to fill his standing orders and other years, when the run is a record breaker, he has extra which he sells in bulk to the sugar-candy manufacturers. Ma always bottles up several gallons of syrup and saves a wooden pail of maple cream. If the kids get an urge that they want sugar cakes, Ma puts a pan of syrup on the stove and boils off a -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {Page image} {Begin page} few for them. When the children were growing up, every year saw sugar parties when the young fry gathered in the sugar house and fed on syrup-on-snow, pickles, raised doughnuts and coffee. The boys would get great pans of snow from some leeward bank where the crystals were almost like little bits of ice. They would pack it down flat and when the syrup was the right consistency a clever artist made fancy figures, waving the great spoon in grandiose gestures. As the syrup hit the snow it congealed into a sticky chewy mass. When the boys and girls had eaten all they could, they chewed pickles to get the sweet out of their mouths and then began again. After everyone was saturated they played games. 'Twas a "sweet" party, so they played kissin' games to keep it consistent. The kissin' games are gone now. They live only in the memories of the older folks. There was "Copenhagen," "Through the Needle's Eye," and "Through the Cedar Swamp." Ezra can remember these and thoughts of them raise a nostalgia in his heart for the days long gone by, for his "folks" and the companions with whom he went to school-- Sugarin' is over. (...) ...the faded sad reminders of a past season. He must hurry if he is to get the sugar buckets washed and dried and stacked neatly away in the bucket house. Ma may come over once more to "redd' up" the sugar house, but most of her contribution to the work of sugaring is over. (...) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 29 22:28:13 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:28:13 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) In-Reply-To: <62670401.70290457.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE > WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR > MODERN LAWS by Tho. Blount The Third Edition In the SAVOY: Printed by > Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling 1717 > > where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from > > ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) Note that the OED records "moot case" back to the 16th century. I agree that "moot court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788. I don't think anyone ever said it was. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcavila at UNT.EDU Wed Oct 30 01:28:56 2002 From: pcavila at UNT.EDU (Patricia Cukor-Avila) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:28:56 -0600 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? Message-ID: To ADS-L readers, I don't normally post long messages to this list, but in light of the fact that the news piece from WOAI on the accent discrimination study done at UNT is rampant with errors and misrepresents the research that Dianne Markley and I did, I felt I needed to set the record straight. I've had a long conversation with Dianne, who was interviewed for this piece, and I asked her to make some comments - I've pasted them below. Briefly, here are some clarifications about the research: 1. The hiring managers who were the respondents for the study were NOT all men - the 10 subjects for the study were men. Our study can only speak to how men were perceived by male and female hiring managers. As Dianne mentions, the next phase of the research will study how women with various regional accents are perceived by BOTH men and women who are in hiring positions. 2. This research does NOT measure (nor makes any suggestions about) the influence of the speech/accents of public figures, politicians, or Hollywood idols on the subjective reactions of our respondents. 3. We have no idea (and our research doesn't measure) whether having a Texas accent was viewed as positive in the 60s, and furthermore, if John Wayne's accent had anything to do with how Texans were perceived. This goes for the ridiculous statement that was made about the 80s and influence of the TV show Dallas. 4. The article leads readers to believe that our research shows that if you have a Texas accent then your chances of being hired are greater than if you don't have a Texas accent. This is a gross overgeneralization. What this phase of the research SUGGESTS is that if the hiring manager is Texan, self-reports that he/she has a Texas accent and likes that accent, recognizes the accent of the subject as being Texan, then that person will rate the Texan highest overall. We don't have enough data from hiring managers from other regions to determine if this would be the case for say someone from Boston interviewing a fellow Bostonian. Below are Dianne's comments: Tricia, Well, it looks like that reporter from San Antonio had a definite agenda - and our research wasn't it! He interviewed me on tape for a radio news show. The interview was NOT like what is portrayed in the article. It seems that he took his own questions and comments - which he sometimes did not get me to react to like he wanted - and pretended these were quotes from me. When he asked about the Sopranos, I intentionally danced around the subject because I did not want him to be able to say I said anything about a particular show! To be honest, I have never seen The Sopranos and was only reacting to his description of the show - he makes it seem as if I came up with it. For the record, here is how it actually went: He asked questions about the study, and everything was fine. But then, he asked if regional accents were going away - a general question rather than one about our study. I told him that no research that I knew of supported the theory that accents were going away. He asked why I thought that was - and I said that there was no way to know exactly why, but perhaps it was a reaction intended to pull back our individual identities. He then asked if having a Texas President in the White house would make a difference in how a Texas accent would be perceived. I explained that our leaders may have an influence in our perceptions about what particular pronunciation are acceptable at any given time - but that changes and was NOT the case with the Texas respondents in our study, since this research has been going on since before Bush was President. He then asked about the show "The Sopranos" and whether or not the media influenced our thinking. I said that the media has always had a tendency to portray certain stereotypical traits with certain regional accents - the dumb southern Sheriff and the New York/New Jersey gangster, for example - but that we did not know if the influence came from the media or if the media was just reflecting an opinion that came from somewhere else. That was the end of the interview and I had to insist that he let me say one more thing - that the purpose of publicizing the research was not to make people self conscious about their accents - but to make hiring managers aware of a hidden bias that may be influencing their decisions to hire or not to hire. That was it. The whole thing took less than 3 minutes. I think I will call him and let him know how much I dislike being misquoted - and in such a stupid way! ____________ Such are the perils of granting interviews about our research. Patricia Cukor-Avila, Chair Linguistics Division University of North Texas Department of English P.O. Box 311307 Denton, TX 76203-1307 pcavila at unt.edu (940) 565-4577 (office) (940) 565-4355 (fax) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 02:26:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:26:31 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow (1951); Tri-Tip Sandwich (1990) Message-ID: FOOD FESTIVALS (1997) by Barbara Carlson is a vastly superior book to FOOD FESTIVALS USA (2002). Yes, the latter has a recipe for each festival and I suppose that was the selling point, but who needs recipes anymore when it's all on the web? FOOD FESTIVALS includes three New York City festivals that the newer book just couldn't find: Ninth Avenue International Food Festival, West Indian-American Carnival, and Feast of San Gennaro. There is a short glossary, a selected bibliography, a cook-offs and recipe contents index, a date index, a food type index, and a general index. I'll try to antedate everything (if I haven't already), but here's the glossary: Aebelskiver; Andouille; Beef on Weck (pronounced wick); Blooming Onions; Booya; Boudin; Bratwurst; Brunswick Stew; Buffalo Chicken Wings; Burgoo; Burrito; Cheese Curds, Fried; Chiles Rellenos; Chitlins; Chorizo; Crawfish; Dirty Rice; Enchiladas; Etouffee; Fajitas; Fried Pie; Fry Bread; Funnel Cake; Geoduck (pronounced gooey-duck); Gordita; Grits; Gumbo; Gyros; Hush Puppies; Indian Tacos; Jambalaya; Jerk Chicken; Kielbasa; Kolache; Lefse; Linguic; Lutefisk; Mayhaw; Pemmican; Pierogi; Po' Boy; Quahog; Ramp; Red-eye Gravy; Rocky Mountain Oyster; Rotis; Sauce Piquante; Snitz; Sonker; Spiedie; Steamers; ... (Last two items below--ed.) Pg. 396: _Sugar on Snow:_ A taffy-like confection made by pouring maple syrup onto snow after the sap has been boiled past the syrup stage. A standard at "sugaring" festivals when maples are tapped. See Vermont Maple Festival, St. Albans, VT. _Tri-Tip Sandwich:_ A triangular cut of sirloin tip, seasoned and roasted over high heat, eaten as a sandwich. Popular festival fare in central California. See Big Hat Festival, Clovis, CA. --------------------------------------------------------------- SUGAR ON SNOW 12 August 1951, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 95: The annual Maple Sugar on Snow Party is scheduled for Aug. 22 at Barton;... 8 May 1955, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX9: _VERMONT_ (...) _Sugar on Snow Parties:_ Morgan, July 16; Canaan, Aug. 1-6; Barton Village (on the Common), Aug. 11. 6 April 1958, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. X19: Other program events include demonstrations of syrup and sugar making, maple creaming and sugar on snow. 31 January 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. BR26: _Books for Younger Readers_ SUGAR ON SNOW. By Nancy Dingman Watson. Illustrated by Aldren A. Watson. 43 pp. New York: The Viking Press. $3. For Ages 3 to 6. TWO things are needed if Cammie is to have a sugar on snow party for her birthday: The sap ("when it's cold from winter and sweet from spring") has to be running in the maples, and there has to be a new fallen cover of snow. --------------------------------------------------------------- TRI-TIP SANDWICH "Tri-tip sandwich" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). No hits on the NEW YORK TIMES database?! There are 80 hits on the Dow Jones database. All of the earliest hits are from the LOS ANGELES TIMES, starting with 7-19-1990. Unfortunately, full text for that is not available. (What a tease!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 04:31:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:31:43 -0500 Subject: Iced Coffee (1842); Sugar on Snow (1949); Chicken Pie Supper (1936) Message-ID: ICED COFFEE SKETCHES OF FOREIGN TRAVEL AND LIFE AT SEA by Charles Rockwell In Two Volumes Boston: Tappan and Dennet 1842 VOLUME ONE Pg. 138: We were soon on excellent terms, and, stopping at the first village we came to, he sent in his servant and ordered two tumblers of iced coffee, which was truly refreshing. On reaching Naples... (OED has 1879 for "iced coffee"...Forget paying the rent. Antedating "espresso," "cappuccino," "caffe latte" and "iced coffee" doesn't even get me a single cup at Starbucks--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHICKENS/TERRAPINS A LA MARYLAND A NEW YORK TIMES check shows "Terrapins a la Maryland" on 21 July 1884, pg. 5. "Chicken a la Maryland" is in the early 1900s. I can check my TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY issues, but maybe later. --------------------------------------------------------------- SUGAR ON SNOW Sorry, but I left off the first citation page that I had copied. 27 March 1949, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. BR26: Best of all was the "Sugar on Snow" party held in Mrs. Polly's kitchen in the month of March. First she and the children tapped her maple trees, then she cooked the sap into syrup, and finally the children gathered bowls of "clean snow," over which Mrs. Polly poured hot syrup and "turned it into sweet, delicious, golden brown candy." (From a review of the children's book MRS. POLLY'S PARTY--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHICKEN PIE SUPPER The NYPL has an index to THE VERMONTER. There was nothing special for the "sugar on snow" item above, but it had this local dish. There are about 100 web hits for "chicken pie supper" and "Vermont." Maybe this gets me invited to David Mamet's place? From THE VERMONTER, August-September 1936, pg. 175, col. 2: _CHICKEN PIE SUPPERS_ By J. R. WHIPPLE THE season for chicken-pie suppers will soon be here and we look forward with a great deal of pleasure to that ancient and honorable rural institution which still maintains its well-deserved popularity in the smaller towns of Vermont in spite of the automobile, the movies and the radio. Chicken-pie suppers are one of the few old relics of by-gone days that still exist. Our covered bridges and many of our fine old colonial mansions are disappearing so rapidly that photographers are busy recording the few survivors for posterity. The oxen are few and the horse is fast becoming extinct as a draught animal. Yet the good old chicken-pie suppers, praise be, still remain to give folk in the most remote sections of the country-side an opportunity to exercise their rights as gregarious beings. Every year, since my wife and I have lived in Vermont, we have become "chicken-pie supper attenders." It has now become akin to a mania with us. Any time after the middle of August we being to peruse the papers carefully to see if, by any chance, some village church within a radius of forty miles has become autumn-minded enough to put on the first chicken-pie supper. When one is spotted, there is great joy in the household. Dietary discretion is completely abandoned and we make haste to drive to that supper regardless of what other engagements for that particular evening we may have had. Why "supper" is used to designate this meal I never could understand. One does not "sup" at a chicken-pie supper; one dines royally, in fact stuffs oneself shamefully with a variety of delicious country fare that would put the repast of an English squire to shame. As soon speak of having "lunch" on Thanksgiving Day. I make a fervent plea for the immortality of the chicken-pie supper. From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Wed Oct 30 07:07:41 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 02:07:41 -0500 Subject: No "there there" Message-ID: The following snippet from Slate.com seems peculiar: The sound bites "didn't raise any flags," AP Senior Vice President Jonathan Wolman told the Washington Post, because none of them were "very snappy or snazzy." In other words, nobody thought to dispute the AP quotations because there was no "there there" to dispute. http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073304 It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or is there something else going on here that I'm missing? Best, Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 08:10:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:10:31 EST Subject: Crips, Bloods & Food; Sonkers; Chicken Pie Supper (1927) Message-ID: CRIPS, BLOODS & FOOD From NEW YORK PRESS, October 30-November 5, 2002, cover story: _BLOOD IN, BLOOD OUT_ _Bronx Gang Members Explain Their Creed_ (...) (Pg. 10, col. 2--ed.) Besides the wearing of the red, some Bloods will have a triangular three-dot tattoo (a dog's paw). Blood affiliates called O31s sign with their thumb and forefinger making an O, the other three fingers held together, the hand on the stomach. The New York City Dept. of Corrections has online gang information that claims that the name the Bloods came from the rite of passage called "Blood in, blood out." A Blood told me, "THat's not where the name comes from. But we do say, 'Blood in, blood out.'" "Blood in" means a new member with no ranking or respect has to "walk the line" abd take a beating from gang members. Or it can mean a new member has to go out and spill a non-Blood's blood. "Blood out" means you leave the gang when you die. (...) (Col. 4--ed.) "The Crips attract sick kids," he went on. "They're sneaky and attack in packs. We say that Crips stands for--'Cowards Run In Packs.'" (...) Some think one of the OGs (Original Gangsters--ed.) of the Crips was in fact a cripple. Another version is that Crip is short for Kryptonite. "Nah, man, that's all bullshit." one Blood told me, waving his hand. "Crips stands for 'Christ Rest In Peace.'" (...) Bloods can be deadly. (...) "You cross me, you're food," one told me. "Food means you're eaten. Dead." (A depressing addition to food slang--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHICKEN PIE SUPPER There are quite a few NEW YORK TIMES hits, and almost all are from Vermont. 18 September 1927, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. X10: _OLD HOME DAYS CLOSE WITH_ _AUCTIONS AND CHICKEN PIES._ (...) There will be chicken pie suppers, which reach their zenith during the effulgence of the harvest moon. OCLC WorldCat has one 1904 hit of "Four stanzas of poetry advertising a public supper," in possession of the Connecticut Historical Society: THE GILEAD CHICKEN-PIE SUPPER WILL BE HELD WEDNESDAY EVENING, OCT. 26, '04, AT THE HOUSE OF H. E. BUELL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SONKERS Does this make the next DARE or not? From FOOD FESTIVALS (1997) by Barbara Carlson, Glossary pg. 395: _Sonker:_A deep-dish pie with fruit or sweet-potato filling, sometimes served with a sauce of milk, sugar, and vanilla. See Sonker Festival, Mount Airy, NC. There are only 32 hits on Google. None of my books here mention it. The festival is held the first week in October. The festival has some years on it now, but, IMHO, the "sonker" hasn't yet achieved "fried twinkie" status. >From Pg. 169: Sonkers are a rarity in North Carolina other than in the remote mountains and hallows around Mount Airy, where the culture has been retained. The festival began in 1984, and they still haven't agreed on the best sonker recipe, so you're on your own. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 30 12:06:53 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:06:53 -0500 Subject: No "there there" In-Reply-To: <00cc01c27fe3$0964cd20$0101a8c0@billionbridges1> Message-ID: yOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote: > It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" > there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or > is there something else going on here that I'm missing? Gertrude Stein wrote "there is no there there," so Slate is quoting her correctly. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 30 12:10:27 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:10:27 -0500 Subject: FW: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: Herb S said, re "thrilla in Manila" (Cosell pronunciation) : >> Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled at. << I humbly beg to differ. Ali was noted -- from the early 60s, when he debuted on the scene -- as a composer of doggerel. This is WAY before rap. There are many examples from his "oeuvre", dating back to the heavy media coverage of his first fight with Sonny Liston, 1964, when he first won the heavyweight crown. I believe that his famous "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" dates back to the first Liston fight. [IMHO aside (ahem): I remember all this vividly and personally, as I am a huge fan of Ali, as an athlete and a person. He IS the greatest athlete of all time, bar none, hands down, story over. Ali is also one of the most significant figures in the American history of the latter half of the 20th cent. Another near the top of MY list for that period is Nixon, but unlike Nixon, Ali was on the good side of "significant". As with baseball, if one does not study and understand the phenomena surrounding Ali and Nixon, one does not know what present-day America is about.] Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually already losing his ability to speak. Ali may have been a **model** for rappers, but he was not one himself, at least not in the usual sense. He was sort of a precursor of rap. Frank Abate > > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) > p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first > delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: > > It will be a killer > And a chiller > And a thrilla > When I get the gorilla > In Manila. > > That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on > the poster) may be taken to back this up. > > Jonathon Green > From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 30 14:19:57 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:19:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: LAVIS III - Call for papers Message-ID: Forwarded on behalf of Mike Picone ----- Forwarded message from "Michael D. Picone" ----- LAVIS III Language Variety in the South: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives Co-Organizers: Michael D. Picone and Catherine Evans Davies, University of Alabama CALL FOR PAPERS LAVIS III, Language Variety in the South: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives, a symposium, will be held at the University of Alabama, in Tuscaloosa, April 15-17, 2004. Plenary Speakers for LAVIS III - Michael Montgomery (U South Carolina Columbia) - John Lipski (Penn State) - Guy Bailey (U Texas at San Antonio) - Pamela Munro (UCLA) Sessions for LAVIS III. As currently envisioned LAVIS III will have fourteen planned sessions, with additional sessions to be added as appropriate from submitted abstracts. - Indigenous Languages - Endangered Languages & Dialects - Links to the Caribbean - Earlier Englishes of the South (Southern American English or African American English or any other variety) - English in the Contemporary South - Perception (in relation to any dialect of the South) - African American English Issues - Quantitative Methodologies - Discourse and Southern American English - Language and the Schools (oriented towards K-12 teachers) - Latino Language Issues - Southern English and the Public Interest (dialect awareness programs for the general public, language and the media, linguistic profiling, forensic linguistics, etc.) - Language and the Arts in the South (literature, film, song, etc.) - New Approaches and Broader Horizons Pre-Conference Workshops for LAVIS III - The semiotics of Moundville (to be held on-site at the Moundville Archeological Park), Vernon James Knight (U Alabama) - Using the LAGS (Linguistic Atlas of the Gulf States) database For background on LAVIS I and II and the general vision behind LAVIS III, please visit the preliminary website at . The advisory board for LAVIS III is made up of the following scholars: Guy Bailey (U Texas at San Antonio), Cynthia Goldin Bernstein (U Memphis), Barbara Johnstone (Carnegie Mellon), Thomas Klingler (Tulane), William Kretzschmar (U Georgia), Sonja Lanehart (U Georgia), Michael Montgomery (U South Carolina Columbia), Salikoko Mufwene (Chicago), Pamela Munro (UCLA), and Walt Wolfram (North Carolina State). Grant funding for LAVIS III is being sought from various sources including NEH and NSF. Depending upon the success of grant proposals, a limited amount of travel funding may become available. Papers from established and emerging scholars are welcome. Abstracts will be judged anonymously. Abstracts of up to 500 words (plus references), for 20-minute papers, must be submitted electronically to by March 15, 2003. Use MS Word to compose your abstract. In addition to sending your abstract (with title) as an attachment, please paste a copy of the abstract into the body of your e-mail message. If you use phonetic symbols in your abstract, select either Lucinda Sans Unicode (which is included with most applications of MS Word) or SILDoulosIPA (freeware available from SIL) as your IPA font. Your name, affiliation, and current contact information must be included in your e-mail message but should not appear in the attached abstract. In your e-mail message, please also include an indication of your equipment requirements for your proposed presentation. The University of Alabama Press will be publishing a refereed volume of papers from the conference. The conference organizers, Michael D. Picone and Catherine Evans Davies, will serve as co-editors and will provide timely information on style and deadlines in order to expedite the publishing process. LAVIS III will take place concurrently with the seventieth meeting of the Southeastern Conference on Linguistics (SECOL LXX). At a later date, there will be a separate call for papers for SECOL LXX. Michael D. Picone Dept. of Modern Languages & Classics University of Alabama picone at ua.edu Catherine Evans Davies University of Alabama Dept. of English cdavies at bama.ua.edu Michael D. Picone The University of Alabama Box 870246 Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0246 USA phone: (205) 348-8473 fax: (205) 348-2042 e-mail: mpicone at bama.ua.edu URL: http://bama.ua.edu/~mpicone ----- End forwarded message ----- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 30 14:47:12 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:47:12 -0500 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Patricia Cukor-Avila wrote: #Below are Dianne's comments: #less than 3 minutes. I think I will call him and let him know how #much I dislike being misquoted - and in such a stupid way! How about writing to his bosses?! -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 30 16:21:09 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:21:09 -0800 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. > In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was > ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto > the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually > already losing his ability to speak. Actually, rap has its origins in the mid-to-late 70s. Rap DJs began playing dance parties around 1974-75 and started gaining local notoriety. The first big commercial rap success was the 1979 album "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugar Hill Gang. But I don't think this changes the basic point; I've never heard anyone associate Ali with rap either. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Oct 30 17:33:20 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:33:20 -0400 Subject: ILA-call for papers Message-ID: The International Linguistic Association (formerly: The Linguistic Circle of New York) will host its annual conference for 2003 at New York Univeristy on April 4,5,6. The theme is Dialects and Dialectology. Visit the following web site and click on Annual Conference for details: http://www.ilaword.org http://www.ilaword.org/ilacall2003.html I L A INTERNATIONAL LINGUISTIC ASSOCIATION 48th ANNUAL CONFERENCE, APRIL 4-6, 2003 NEW YORK UNIVERSITY, NEW YORK, NY Major Theme: DIALECTS and DIALECTOLOGY While papers on that theme are especially solicited, abstracts on any subject in theoretical and applied linguistics will be welcomed. Guest speakers: Walt Wolfram (University of North Carolina) Joan Hall, editor in chief of the Dictionary of American Regional English Single-spaced, anonymous abstracts of not more than 425 words should clearly state the problems addressed, or research questions, and some indication of results or conclusions. Send via e-mail to the conference coordinator, preferably as an attachment, with (separately) name, title of paper, addresses, affiliation,and audio-visual equipment needed. Simultaneously, send to the coordinator, via snail mail, and in a size 10 (4 1/8*9 1/2) envelope, 1 hardcopy of the abstract, for editing and verification purposes. Those wishing to propose panels, or special sessions, etc., should contact the program chair. Time allotted will be 20 minutes for delivery of the paper plus 5 minutes discussion. Deadline for receipt of abstracts is January 15, 2003 Local host: John R. Costello (e-mail:john.costello at nyu.edu). Program Chair: David K.Barnhart (e-mail:Barnhart at Highlands.com). Conference Coordinator: Johanna J. Woltjer (e-mail:jwoltjer at earthlink.net). 511 West 112 Street # 14 New York, NY 10025-1634, USA e-mail: jwoltjer at earthlink.net Tel. (212) 749-3366 The ILA-WORD website will provide continuous information concerning conference arrangements, etc.: www.ilaword.org From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 30 21:45:33 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:45:33 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: I used the wrong term. Rap, particularly as a commercial art form, started up well after Ali developed his reputation for extemporaneous verse. However, Ali's poetry and rap have common roots in folk poetry that Ali's may actually have been closer to. As a verb, "rap" certainly goes back farther than the art form. I remember it from civil rights marches in the '60s, and Thomas Kochman edited a collection in 1972 titled Rappin' and Stylin' Out. Herb > > Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. > > In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was > > ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto > > the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually > > already losing his ability to speak. > > Actually, rap has its origins in the mid-to-late 70s. Rap DJs began playing > dance parties around 1974-75 and started gaining local notoriety. The first > big commercial rap success was the 1979 album "Rapper's Delight" by the > Sugar Hill Gang. But I don't think this changes the basic point; I've never > heard anyone associate Ali with rap either. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 00:43:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:43:08 -0500 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland In-Reply-To: <253463AF.6D6F88A4.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:31 PM -0500 10/29/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >CHICKENS/TERRAPINS A LA MARYLAND > > A NEW YORK TIMES check shows "Terrapins a la Maryland" on 21 July >1884, pg. 5. "Chicken a la Maryland" is in the early 1900s. I can >check my TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY issues, but maybe later. > This does open up a great idea for a theme cookbook with somewhat fewer than 50 recipes, including those for... Wildcat a la Arizona Razorbacks a la Arkansas Golden bears a la California Buffalo a la Colorado Blue hens a la Delaware Gators a la Florida Jayhawks a la Kansas Wildcat a la Kentucky (different preparation from first entry) Terrapins a la Maryland Wolverine a la Michigan Tiger a la Missouri Duck a l'Oregon Ram a la Rhode Island Longhorn a la Texas Badger a la Wisconsin Only some of these species are endangered, and I've omitted the entries for bulldogs and huskies (as well as those for mountaineers, cowboys, cavaliers, minutemen, hoosiers, etc.) to spare sensibilities. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 00:51:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:51:36 -0500 Subject: No "there there" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:06 AM -0500 10/30/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >yOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote: > >> It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" >> there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or >> is there something else going on here that I'm missing? > >Gertrude Stein wrote "there is no there there," so Slate is quoting her >correctly. > >Fred Shapiro > Referring to Oakland, her hometown, and how it was unrecognizable when she returned home. (It's usually been reinterpreted to refer to a place with no intrinsic content or interest.) Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 31 02:59:52 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:59:52 -0800 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland Message-ID: larry horn lists a number of possible (but possibly dubious) state delicacies, but sticks to the animal kingdom. though i have submitted to the charms of the west coast, i have to note Buckeyes a l'Ohio [for safety's sake, i'd use chestnuts. well, there are those chocolate-stuffed-with-peanut-butter buckeyes...] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 31 02:55:16 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:55:16 -0600 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: The back of a U.S. dollar bill has two circles; I never paid much attention to the contents of the one on the left, but today I was asked about them: 1) What does the pyramid symbolize? 2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason detached from it)? 3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? 4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From patty at CRUZIO.COM Thu Oct 31 03:37:54 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:37:54 -0800 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Hi folks: I found an interesting sentence in the Oct. issue of Self magazine (health, fitness, fashion), has the term above. It is in a feature article where each page has a couple sentences Setting the Scene, an accompanying picture and a couple paragraphs how to achieve The Effect or The Look. So, some fashion and cosmetics advertising. I looked on Google and there were no hits for 'circulation-goosing'. I am wondering if '-goosing' is being appended to various words? Here is the sentence: If your A.M. problem is undereye circles: ......smooths and brightens with vitamin C and circulation-goosing caffeine -- it's like breakfast for your face. Another one I noticed lately is "canoodling", read it in several places in celebrity gossip magazines. It seems to mean Making Out in Restaurants as in Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez have been spotted canoodling from the East Coast to the West. From various mags at the beauty shop :} Wow - just looked it up on Google and canoodling gets 3,690 hits. Well, the mags I looked at all used canoodling in sentences like mine but there must be other defs for it. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 31 03:41:57 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:41:57 -0600 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The back of a U.S. dollar bill has two circles; I never paid much >attention to the contents of the one on the left, but today I was >asked about them: > >1) What does the pyramid symbolize? >2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the >triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason >detached from it)? >3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? >4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It >looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? > > I'd be grateful for any clarification. > >Gerald Cohen From the Bureau of Printing and Engraving webpage The two circles are the Great Seal. The one you have questions about is described below: The reverse, sometimes referred to as the spiritual side of the seal, contains the 13-step pyramid with the year 1776 in Roman numerals on the base. At the summit of the pyramid is the Eye of Providence in a triangle surrounded by a Glory (rays of light) and above it appears the motto Annuit Coeptis, or "He (God) has favored our undertakings." Along the lower circumference of the design appear the words Novus Ordo Seclorum, or "A new order of the ages," heralding the beginning of the new American era in 1776. If you are interested in a more detailed history of the Great Seal of the United States, you should contact the U.S. Department of State directly. http://www.bep.treas.gov/document.cfm/18/120 My understanding is that at least some of this symbolism is Masonic. Barbara From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 31 04:09:45 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:09:45 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >1) What does the pyramid symbolize? >2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the >triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason >detached from it)? >3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? >4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It >looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? (1) Probably the construction of a durable edifice (i.e., the nation). (2) Apparently Providence, or God, watching over the undertaking. (3) "Annuit coeptis" -- apparently following Virgil -- means "[He/it] assents-to/looks-favorably-upon [the] undertaking". (4) Also apparently based on a line from Virgil: alternate glosses would include "series" for "order", "centuries" or "generations" for "ages". So I think the idea is "a new [long] epoch" or so. Here is a brief summary which agrees with other things I've seen. This addresses the story about Masonic influences. http://www.cix.co.uk/~craftings/doll.htm I deny any expertise. -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Oct 31 04:15:38 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:15:38 EST Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: The following is from an NIH website for children -- http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/triviadollar.htm: National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences National Institutes of Health (NIH) Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) Jokes! NIEHS Kids' Pages Index Understanding the Design and Symbolism of the U.S. One Dollar Bill Although symbols are open to many interpretations, we believe the following information offers some historical insight (and some undocumented perceptions) about the design and meaning of some of the images on the one dollar bill. The explanations and interpretations that appear below were verified by the Truth or Fiction website, and predominantly (except where noted otherwise) reflect the official interpretations of the United States Treasury Department and the United States Department of State, the official keeper of the United States Seal. . . . If you turn the bill over, you will see two circles. The two circles reflect the two sides of the Great Seal of the United States. Before the adjournment of the Continental Congress on July 4th, 1776, a committee was appointed to develop a seal for the United States. The committee was Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, three of the five men who had drafted the Declaration of Independence. They were merely the first committee, however. It took six years, the work of two additional committees and a total of 14 men before a final version of the Great Seal was approved. The final proposal, as accepted by Congress, was submitted on June 13, 1782, by Charles Thompson, Secretary of Congress. He brought together some of the recommendations of the three committees, their consultants, and artists. If you look at the left hand circle, you will see a Pyramid. This pyramid was not a part of the proposals for the Great Seal until the third committee, and it was not suggested by Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams. Notice the face is lighted and the western side is dark. Although there is no "official" explanation for the shading, some interpret it as a reflection that our country was just beginning and had not begun to explore the West or decided what we could do for Western Civilization. The Pyramid is UN-capped, which may signify that our country was not yet finished. The unfinished state of the pyramid was intentional, and Charles Thompson, in his remarks to congress about the symbolism on the Great Seal, said the pyramid represented "Strength and Duration." Inside the capstone you have the all-seeing eye, and ancient symbol for divinity. Although Franklin's committee did not suggest a pyramid, it did originate the suggestion of the eye. However, the term "the all-seeing eye" was never officially used when describing it. The Franklin committee wanted the seal to include a reflection of divine providence and discussed a variety of themes including the Children of Israel in the Wilderness. Some have suggested that the pyramid and the eye are the result of Masonic influence, but that is not supported by historical evidence. The claim that "the all seeing eye" is uniquely Masonic first appeared in 1797, nearly 15 years after the adoption of the symbolism by Congress. In addition, the only member of the original committee who was a Mason was Franklin; that committee's design was actually rejected by Congress, and none of the final designers of the seal were Masons. The eye as representing "the eye of providence" has a long history. It's more likely that both the designers of the Great Seal and the Masons drew from that history. "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on this currency. The Latin above the pyramid, ANNUIT COEPTIS, means "God has favored our undertaking." It was Franklin's belief that one man couldn't do it alone, but a group of men with the help of God could do anything. The Latin below the pyramid, NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM, actually means "a new order for the ages." At the base of the pyramid is the Roman Numeral for 1776. Steve Boatti From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 31 04:17:53 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:17:53 -0500 Subject: go-to-hell hat Message-ID: I have a soft, floppy hat with about a two-inch brim that goes all the way around. I've heard it referred to here in Central Indiana and in SW Ontario as a "go-to-hell hat". I searched that phrase on Google and got 30 hits, several of which associated that style hat with the military, especially during the Gulf War. There were also some soft floppy hats shown that didn't look like the same design. How wide-spread is this term? Any information on its origins? Herb Stahlke From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 04:41:35 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:41:35 -0500 Subject: go-to-hell hat In-Reply-To: <000b01c28094$7ce08800$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 11:17:53PM -0500, Herbert Stahlke wrote: > I have a soft, floppy hat with about a two-inch brim that goes all the way > around. I've heard it referred to here in > Central Indiana and in SW Ontario as a "go-to-hell hat". I searched that > phrase on Google and got 30 hits, several of which associated that style hat > with the military, especially during the Gulf War. There were also some > soft floppy hats shown that didn't look like the same design. How > wide-spread is this term? Any information on its origins? HDAS has examples to 1921 in the sense 'an overseas or garrison cap' (1918 in the form _go-to-hell cap_), and 1966 in the sense 'a wide- brimmed jungle hat'. There are examples of _go-to-hell_ modifying other articles of clothing thought to be 'jaunty, nonchalant, or extreme in style' from 1937 onwards. Jesse Sheidlower OED From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 07:15:58 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:15:58 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: *Novus ordo seclorum* does mean "The new order of the ages." I assume it refers to the new democracy. *Annuit coeptis* means "He [God] has looked with favor upon our [America's] beginning." Said to be adapted from a passage in Vergil's *Aeneid*. I don't know about the pictorial symbols; I'm sure there's some Web site where they're explained. --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 07:15:59 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:15:59 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. To *goose* is to stimulate, boost, goad, urge to action, etc. I believe it's been in general slang/informal use in the U.S. for some time. It can be applied to circulation or anything or anyone where it seems to fit. To *canoodle*--both AE and BE and dating from the mid-19th century--is to kiss and cuddle (to engage in what was known a couple of generations back as "necking" or "petting" and subsequently as "making out"). It need not take place in an eating establishment. --Dodi Schultz From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Oct 31 12:36:26 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:36:26 -0500 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland In-Reply-To: <200210310259.g9V2xpM22891@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >arnold, I'm sure you know that outside Ohio buckeyes are generally know as "horse chestnuts." We knew not to eat them. dInIs >larry horn lists a number of possible (but possibly dubious) >state delicacies, but sticks to the animal kingdom. though i >have submitted to the charms of the west coast, i have to note > Buckeyes a l'Ohio >[for safety's sake, i'd use chestnuts. well, there are those >chocolate-stuffed-with-peanut-butter buckeyes...] > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Oct 31 13:12:25 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:12:25 -0000 Subject: Ali/Rap Message-ID: [This seems to have returned itself at first sending to Dave Wilton, in error. My apologies to him] While rap qua rap, or at least hiphop, as it was first known, does indeed begin in the mid-late '70s, the ethos that underpins it, whether in the form of verbal games, male braggadocio or social commentary (which is there, however much some of the language, especially of 'gangsta rap', springs from what one might term the 'epater les parents' school of teenage boy, irrespective of colour) is much older. On the one hand there is the venerable tradition of the ritualised insults that is 'the dirty dozens', which allegedly goes back to slavery; there is the super-macho world of the pimp 'toasts' (narrative poems), which have been recorded from the 1930s-60s; and the social commentary central to the work of such as The Last Poets, who flourished c. 1970. All this before rap, other than a word, was a crackle on an DJ's 'wheels of steel.' I would also agree wholeheartdly with Frank Abate's remarks on Ali and doggerel, although, as the one whose mail (on the 'thrilla in Manila') helped set this discussion in motion, I used 'doggerel' merely as a reasonably pertinent description of the Ali poetic style, rather than as a carefully reasoned critical assessment. And while it might be claimed that Ali's style does have some links to the boasting and challenges that are found in many 'toasts', I don't think that his poems as such can really be seen as founders of modern rap. Jonathon Green From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 31 14:27:42 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:27:42 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North Jersey). Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Thu Oct 31 14:36:33 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:36:33 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: As a child in Newport RI, I remember some of our elder Irish population occasionally referring to it as "Gap Night." Perhaps someday I'll be enlightened about that quaint phrase. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Keer To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:27 AM Subject: Night before Halloween I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North Jersey). Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:07:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:07:45 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:27 AM -0800 10/31/02, Ed Keer wrote: >I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is >called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE >Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My >wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". >I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" >(again, North Jersey). Any others? > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ "Devil's night" around Detroit, if I'm not mistaken. And there's a history that goes with it--a lot more than mischief is involved, unless you're using the much earlier and stronger meaning of the word. Larry From davemarc at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 15:34:11 2002 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:34:11 -0500 Subject: "Wham Bam..." Message-ID: For what it's worth, I think the phrase is defined in Dr. David Reuben's "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex....," published in 1969 (naturally). d. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:59:50 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:59:50 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Detroit - Devil Night. dInIs >I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is >called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE >Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My >wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". >I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" >(again, North Jersey). Any others? > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:59:18 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:59:18 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: Herb Stahlke notes "Thomas Kochman edited a collection in 1972 titled Rappin' and Stylin' Out." The following was published the preceeding year: Stanford, Gene, ed. Generation rap; an athology [sic] about youth and the establishment. Edited, with an introduction by Gene Stanford. [New York, Dell Pub. Co., 1971] 176 p. 18 cm. (Laurel leaf library.) I cut this title out of the Bobst catalog and suspect that the error in the title was done here, not by the publisher. I do not remember when H. Rap Brown became prominent, but it was no doubt a year or two before. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:12:03 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:12:03 -0500 Subject: lame duck Message-ID: HDAS (under lame duck, 1a, in the sense of a failed stock market grifter) has citations from 1761, 1766, 1771 & 1841, all English; its first U. S. source is 1851; (sense 1b, a general dead-beat starts with 1875). The OED (under duck, 9) adds 1806-07 and 1832, from English sources. Here are two citations from New York newspapers. 1826: A broker sells stock ahead to another broker; the day arrives, he cannot deliver, and he cannot pay the difference; he is called a lame duck, and waddles out of Wall-street for a day or two, and waddles back to his old office and opens shop again. N-Y Enquirer, July 24, 1826, p. 2, col. 2 1837: "'Tis as easy as lying" to make a figure in New York. I will just mention a few plans. Go in to Wall street. Hire the corner of an office, for the brokers occupy offices there as the Irish keep tenants in the Five Points -- every corner of a single room having a whole family, besides boarders and lodgers. *** Buy and sell stocks on time. What next? More. What next? Still more. Do this for a fortnight. Then break. Curse Morris Canal. Walk out a lame duck -- keep the differences -- and thus you can live on $10,000 a year, and be always talking of the "money market," "banks" and "exchanges." The Herald, February 2, 1837, p. 2, col. 3 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:19:17 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:19:17 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission Message-ID: My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near Coney Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her colleagues, including my wife, that she had attended a "Fuckerware" party over the weekend. My wife, not wanting to expose herself as an old codgerette from an era and a region where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not press for details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If there is interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term is new to me. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:28:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The custom of marking the night before Halloween in any way at all is not universal. In the places where I lived when I was trick-or-treating age--So. California and Oregon--kids did their trick-or-treating on Halloween, and the night before was like any other night. However, I do remember as a small child in Oklahoma City being asked by my parents if I wanted to "go with them on Handout Night or Halloween Night." I didn't know who "they" were, didn't have a clue what I was "going with them" to do, and had never heard either word, but I chose "Handout Night" because it sounded somehow friendlier. On the night in question, some friends showed up and we went around the neighborhood with paper sacks knocking on doors and saying "Handout!" whereupon people would drop goodies in our paper bags. I don't think we wore costumes. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:27 AM -0800 Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 31 17:31:24 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:31:24 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the night of Halloween? Annie Bush --- Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween > is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie > night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 31 17:35:26 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:35:26 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re the stuff on the US dollar bill (or on any US bill), the best source for authoritative info is the people who make them -- Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Also, the US Mint sells a booklet that explains all this kind of thing. Frank Abate From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 17:36:15 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:36:15 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: Ed Keer asks, >> I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your >> neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it >> "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie >> night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North >> Jersey). Any others? I also spent my early childhood in southeastern Pennsylvania; the evening of October 30th was known locally as "Tick-Tack Night." Fred Cassidy, to whom I described it about 20 years ago, said he'd be using the term, so I assume it'll appear in a forthcoming volume of *DARE*. Here's the pertinent quote from my letter to Cassidy: "It wasn't a night for vandalism, but for very specific mischief. One took an ordinary empty wooden spool, cut notches in the flanges at each end, then wound a length of string around the spool. The spool was then held against a window pane, with a long nail through it, and the string was pulled; the startling sound which resulted gave the night its name." --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 31 17:37:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:37:40 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? In-Reply-To: <200210310216_MC3-1-184A-505F@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she #thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. [...] And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of "goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or construction. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 31 17:42:05 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:42:05 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031173124.76134.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: #Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the #night of Halloween? # #Annie Bush Same night. Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric 1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. -- Mark A. Mandel From patty at CRUZIO.COM Thu Oct 31 17:58:13 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:58:13 -0800 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great replies! Mark, the construction explanation was something I was curious about, thanks! Another angle on the canoodling is that I don't recall reading or hearing this word very often in the past. But reading it in sev diff tabloid newspapers, used in the same context and applied to different couples was striking. They all came out around the same time (say 6 weeks ago). There must be some kind of (recent?) history to it being a popular word all of a sudden amongst the columnists or writers. At 12:37 PM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >#Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she >#thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. > > [...] > >And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs >NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well >established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of >"goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that >stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or >construction. > >-- Mark A. Mandel From gd2 at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 18:06:07 2002 From: gd2 at NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:06:07 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: At 09:58 AM 10/31/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Another angle on the canoodling is that I don't >recall reading or hearing this word very often in the past. But reading >it in sev diff tabloid newspapers, used in the same context and applied to >different couples was striking. They all came out around the same time >(say 6 weeks ago). There must be some kind of (recent?) history to it >being a popular word all of a sudden amongst the columnists or writers. > For several years now "canoodling" has been used with some frequency in the gossip column ("Page Six") of the New York Post -- back through 97 or 98, if not much earlier. The sense is "making out," especially in a location where others can see the goings-on -- i.e., noticeably intense P.D.A. Of course, the word has a long history prior to Page Six, but anyone who's interested could use Lexis/Nexis to trace the spread of the word as employed in gossipy journalistic contexts late in the last century. Perhaps the older pedigree of "canoodling" and its status as cutesy or quaint euphemism make it preferable in journalistic contexts to blunter-sounding locutions such as "making out." Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at nyu.edu From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Oct 31 18:23:12 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:23:12 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission In-Reply-To: <4601c2462f8c.462f8c4601c2@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I've definitely heard the term; it does indeed refer to parties held in people's homes at which erotic clothing and sex toys are sold, in the same way that Tupperware operates. As far as I know it's not an official name for a specific company, but rather a catch-all slang term for this type of party. Wendalyn Nichols At 12:19 PM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near Coney >Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her colleagues, >including my wife, that she had attended a "Fuckerware" party over the >weekend. My wife, not wanting to expose herself as an old codgerette from >an era and a region where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not >press for details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate >and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If there is >interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term is new to me. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 18:41:18 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:41:18 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission In-Reply-To: <4601c2462f8c.462f8c4601c2@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 12:19:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near >Coney Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her >colleagues, including my wife, that she had attended a >"Fuckerware" party over the weekend. My wife, not wanting to >expose herself as an old codgerette from an era and a region >where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not press for >details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate >and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If >there is interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term >is new to me. You'll find this term entered in the second edition of _The F-Word,_ with a first cite from 1985 in _Hustler,_ in reference to the 1985 pornographic film _The Pleasure Party._ The term is used in that film, though since it stars Traci Lords, and is thus illegal to possess as Ms Lords was inderage at the time, I thought it best not to quote from the film directly. It is, indeed, a gathering for the group use of sex toys. Jesse Sheidlower From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Thu Oct 31 20:06:31 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:06:31 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: The day before a Christian feast day became the "eve" ( originally the evening before ) of that day, hence "Christmas Eve." In this case, "All Hallows Eve," "All Hallows" is better known now as "All Saints Day." "All Saints Day" is followed by "All Souls Day," which is better known in Mexico ( and, increasingly, in the U.S.) as El Dia ( looks odd without the accent ) de los Muertos. [ For a similar concept, but different season, see "Walpurgisnacht."] Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: > > #Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the > #night of Halloween? > # > #Annie Bush > > Same night. > > Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric > 1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 20:10:18 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? Devil's Night. (I grew up outside of Flint, Michigan.) Used to be a night in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set buildings on fire in droves. -- Steve From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Thu Oct 31 20:20:59 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:20:59 -0500 Subject: flake Message-ID: Does anyone know if "flake" was engendered or enhanced by "el flaco" ? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 31 20:40:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:40:32 EST Subject: flake Message-ID: In a message dated 10/31/02 3:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > Does anyone know if "flake" was engendered or enhanced by "el flaco" ? A different question: the term "flake" meaning "an irresponsible person" was attached to a baseball player named Jackie Brandt not later than 1962. reference "Flakey Brandt and Big Boog" _Sports Illustrated_ April 9, 1962 (Vol. 16, Issue 14) -- p. 50. Title quoted in URL http://www.pubdim.net/baseballlibrary/sabr/tbi/B/Brandt_Jackie.tbi.stm I have seen it claimed several times that the usage of "flake" to mean "irresponsible person" derives from this epithet applied to Brandt. Does anyone know whether this claim is correct or an etymythology? - Jim Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 31 21:14:43 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:14:43 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat Message-ID: How old is "trick or treat"? It seems to have been universally observed in the United States by the 1950s. According to Nicholas Rogers, Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night (reviewed in the most recent New York Times Review of Books), it was introduced in the U.S. only about 1939. It must have spread rapidly. The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October 1947. I can antedate that slightly. This case doesn't say which Halloween was involved, but it necessarily was before 1947: >>It was Halloween and spirits walked. Little children were eager, excited, and gay, and their oldsters joined in the merriment. Little Dorothy and her sister Betty, age seven, were enjoying the childish sport of 'trick or treat' among the neighbors of the Burtons in the city of Los Angeles.<< Burton v. Los Angeles Ry. Corp., 79 Cal.App.2d 605, 608, 180 P.2d 367, 368 (Cal.App. 2 Dist. May 12, 1947). John Baker From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Thu Oct 31 21:27:53 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: this thought hit me on the way to the shower. any takers? when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically a dialect change, so what would we call it? -joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 22:15:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:15:47 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October 1947. Anthony Boucher published a Halloween story entitled "Trick-or-Treat" in _Master Detective_, June 1945. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 22:33:04 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:33:04 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Mark Mandel observes, >> And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs >> NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well >> established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of >> "goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that >> stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or >> construction. That's correct. --Dodi Schultz From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 31 22:34:28 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:34:28 -0800 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How old is "trick or treat"? It seems to have been > universally observed in the United States by the 1950s. > According to Nicholas Rogers, Halloween: From Pagan Ritual > to Party Night (reviewed in the most recent New York Times > Review of Books), it was introduced in the U.S. only about > 1939. It must have spread rapidly. > > The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October > 1947. I can antedate that slightly. This case doesn't say > which Halloween was involved, but it necessarily was before 1947: > > >>It was Halloween and spirits walked. Little > children were eager, excited, and gay, and their oldsters > joined in the merriment. Little Dorothy and her sister Betty, > age seven, were enjoying the childish sport of 'trick or > treat' among the neighbors of the Burtons in the city of Los > Angeles.<< > > Burton v. Los Angeles Ry. Corp., 79 Cal.App.2d 605, 608, 180 > P.2d 367, 368 (Cal.App. 2 Dist. May 12, 1947). I found an Oct 1941 citation, a poem in the _Saturday Evening Post_ titled "Trick or Treat." There is also a 30 Oct 1937 _SEP_ cover illustration (by Robert B. Velie, not Rockwell) titled "Trick or Treaters." But neither the UC nor the Berkeley public library have this issue, so I can't verify if that illustration title is from 1937 or was assigned later. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 31 22:59:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:59:34 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Devil's Night. (I grew up outside of Flint, Michigan.) Used to be a night >in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set >buildings on fire in droves. In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" (I pictured it as "Devils' Night" then) was a children's institution, a time for pranks or tricks, an extension of Halloween (Oct. 31 evening was expended in foraging for treats, so the tricks had to have a different night). Some of the tricks of course were childishly cruel or dangerous. The expression at that time did not refer to a frenzy of arson (to my best knowledge). I think the development of the stronger meaning was straightforward and probably began around 1968. The arson orgy apparently reached its peak in 1984, and has been in decline since. Detroit's population has been shrinking (I'm gone for example!) during recent decades, providing many decrepit vacant buildings which are a temptation to casual arsonists ... but then I suppose the population of arsonists has been shrinking too, lately. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 23:58:21 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:58:21 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: <001a01c2812d$ad0bac50$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > I found an Oct 1941 citation, a poem in the _Saturday Evening Post_ titled > "Trick or Treat." There is also a 30 Oct 1937 _SEP_ cover illustration (by > Robert B. Velie, not Rockwell) titled "Trick or Treaters." But neither the > UC nor the Berkeley public library have this issue, so I can't verify if > that illustration title is from 1937 or was assigned later. _American Home_, Nov. 1940, p. 95, had an article entitled "New Tricks and Treats for Halloween." I don't know whether this article included "trick or treat," but that seems likely. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 01:28:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:28:17 EDT Subject: Google blips Message-ID: >From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": 'Google blips': Search not always right PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has many levels, and apparently some people see software giant Microsoft Corp. at its core. At least that's according to the search engine Google, which when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather humorous result, considering Google's reputation for producing the most accurate search results. Microsoft's corporate rivals should not be so quick to chuckle, however. The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time Warner is the parent company of CNN.) But how does Microsoft beat a site called Hell.com for top ranking in the "go to hell" category, on a search engine that made a reputation putting the most relevant results first? Microsoft's detractors The easiest answer is that Microsoft has a lot of enemies. Although Google offered no explanation on the "go to hell" matter, Google's site is famous for its "link analysis" method of producing search results. When users enter a word or term, they get back not just those Web sites containing that term but other sites as well, that are linked to those that contain the word or phrase, in question. Microsoft's home page, in other words, may not contain the phrase "go to hell" anywhere, but there are apparently a lot of other sites out there that mention Microsoft (or AOL, or Disney) and going to hell in the same context. "I call them Google blips," said Danny Sullivan, editor of SearchEngineWatch, an industry newsletter. "These are the things that happen when Web sites start linking to other Web sites. It just means that there are probably a lot of people who don't like Microsoft, and that is not a surprise." Sullivan has tracked the search engine industry for years and has multiple examples of the way links between different Web sites have produced misleading search results. (...) From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Oct 1 01:51:12 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:51:12 -0500 Subject: automaticity Message-ID: Colin Powell used this word on the Jim Lehrer news hour tonight, referring to the UN resolution the Bush administration wants passed. Bush wants military action to kick in automatically if Iraq makes any hedges WRT weapons inspectors, and Powell specifically stated that this was the word they had been using in discussions. -- - Greg http://www.pulliam.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 02:37:03 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:37:03 -0700 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't any such results for go to hell either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has changed something or something else is going on... Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has > many levels, and apparently some people see software giant > Microsoft Corp. at its core. > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which > when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather > humorous result, considering Google's reputation for > producing the most accurate search results. > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America > Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among > the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time > Warner is the parent company of CNN.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 1 02:47:42 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:47:42 -0500 Subject: Cucoloris Message-ID: German has a very similar word, albeit with a different meaning: KOKOLORES, KOKOLORUS, masc. (no plural): (a) rubbish, nonsense, twaddle, (b) palaver, fuss; e.g. "mach doch nicht solchen Kokolores don't make such a fuss. (c) = German "Kram", in: den ganzen Kokolores/all den Kokolores einpacken to pack in the whole caboodle/shebang. Might the U.S./British term denoting "screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in front of the luminaire" have derived from the German word? Perhaps (and yes, yes, I know this is speculating) a German referred to a pile of the screens as Kokolores, intending the equivalent of "Kram" (stuff, junk, things), which was then interpreted by a non-German speaker as a technical term for these screens. Gerald Cohen >At 10:07 AM +0100 9/30/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >While looking into the film and stage lighting term 'gobo' for kinds >of screen used to generate patterns of light and shadow on the set, I >came across "cucoloris" (variously spelt) as a common term for some >sorts - screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in >front of the luminaire. The word is in no dictionary that I've been >able to trace, nor is there any indication of its origin. One >possibility might be the classical Latin "cucullus" for a hood or >cowl, which it is just possible some early photographer might have >borrowed. Does anybody have any evidence at all for this word that >might throw light (ahem) on where it comes from? > >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: >Web: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 03:02:32 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:02:32 -0400 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and >70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard >it all the time. >Fritz Juengling > >>>> wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM 09/30/02 03:54PM >>> >Anyone--Joan?--familiar with "davano" as a short form of "davenport" in >regional American speech? ~~~~~~ We used "sofa," " davenport" & "daveno" interchangeably in Nebraska in the 30s. Some local people also used "chesterfield." A. Murie From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 03:23:53 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:23:53 -0700 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest Gump is present for many great historical events. I've never heard this used before. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 03:59:29 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:59:29 -0400 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: <000701c268f3$70876be0$13b8fa43@Office> Message-ID: I went through this one a few years ago with friends on another mailing list. It's dependent not only on the quotes but the kind of quotes, single or double. With the quotes, you're googling for the phrase; without them, you're googling for go AND to AND hell, so the order and proximity of the words are irrelevant. Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I don't any such results for > >go to hell > >either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has changed something >or something else is going on... > >Benjamin Barrett >Live from Tukwila > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell has > > many levels, and apparently some people see software giant > > Microsoft Corp. at its core. > > > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which > > when given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > > home page of the world's largest software maker -- a rather > > humorous result, considering Google's reputation for > > producing the most accurate search results. > > > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America > > Online division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among > > the top five results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time > > Warner is the parent company of CNN.) -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 1 05:25:48 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:25:48 -0700 Subject: Google blips In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930235800.00ac3258@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: Okay, I ran it again as 'go to hell' Still none of those companies in the top 10 hits... Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alice Faber > > I went through this one a few years ago with friends on > another mailing list. It's dependent not only on the quotes > but the kind of quotes, single or double. With the quotes, > you're googling for the phrase; without them, you're googling > for go AND to AND hell, so the order and proximity of the > words are irrelevant. > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >I don't any such results for > > > >go to hell > > > >either with or without quotes. I wonder if Google has > changed something > >or something else is going on... > > > >Benjamin Barrett > >Live from Tukwila > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > > Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM > > > > > > From CNN--or Google for "Google blips": > > > > > > PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) -- It has been said that hell > has many > > > levels, and apparently some people see software giant Microsoft > > > Corp. at its core. > > > > > > At least that's according to the search engine Google, which when > > > given a query for the term "go to hell," kicks back the > home page of > > > the world's largest software maker -- a rather humorous result, > > > considering Google's reputation for producing the most accurate > > > search results. > > > > > The official home pages for AOL Time Warner Inc.'s America Online > > > division and for Walt Disney Co. also come in among the top five > > > results under the "go to hell" query. (AOL Time Warner is > the parent > > > company of CNN.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 05:39:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 01:39:04 EDT Subject: Misery Mile; Cokeskills; Southport; Jamband; Waffle Fries; Cemitas Message-ID: A few terms from this week's NEW YORK PRESS and the VILLAGE VOICE. MISERY MILE--From NEW YORK PRESS, September 25-October 1, 2002, pg. 17, "Best Place To Get Depressed: 'Misery Mile' (The Battery to Canal Street)." The article states that Jimmy Breslin gave it this term. Breslin's column, "A Grim Walking Tour of City's Misery Mile," was in NEWSDAY, 18 July 2002. The Mile has a Holocaust Memorial, a Vietnam Memorial, and Irish Famine Memorial, a WWII Memorial, and THEN came September 11th. COKESKILLS--The Catskills for people who do coke, in NEW YORK PRESS, pg. 25. There are no other Google hits. SOUTHPORT--SOUTH of PORT Authority. It's no SOHO (SOuth of HOuston), and is not used at all at this point. From NEW YORK PRESS, pg. 11. JAMBAND--From the VILLAGE VOICE, September 25-October 1, 2002, "JAMMED FOR ALL TIME," pg. 45: "Jam band" began as a simple jazz phrase describing musicians who got together to improvise, free from the rules of everyday gigs. Today it refers to about 200 artists. Many are acutely aware of a bizarre backlash against the term and--like every emo and hair metal and teenpop act that ever resented its "File Under" destiny--some have been reluctant to cop to it. "Please write about us in _Relix_ and on Jambands.com, and please have us on your radio shoe _Jam Nation_," mocks Jambands.com writer Jeff Waful. "But don't call us a jamband." WAFFLE FRIES--The NEW YORK PRESS "Best of New York" issue, EATS & DRINKS, states that Sam's Famous Waterfront Ale House, 540 2nd Avenue (30th Street), makes great "waffle fries." Trademark records for "waffle fries" shows that Lamb-Weston Inc. used the term from 6 September 1983. Chik-fil-A has used "waffle potato fries" from August 1984. There are 2,220 Google hits for "waffle fries." CEMITAS--Only 12 Google hits (with the word "sandwich" added), but keep it in mind, anyway. From the VILLAGE VOICE, pg. 76: In addition to tacos and tortas in 20 permutations, former pizza parlor _TACO AZTECA_ (75 Victory Boulevard, Staten Island, 718-273-6404) whips up big round sandwiches called cemitas. Hailing from Puebla and Tlaxcala in central Mexico, they're made with pan de pulque, a sweet egg bread dotted with sesame seeds and leavened with cactus beer. Though they can be made with chicken or pork, I prefer milanesa--a pounded, crumbed, deep-fried beefsteak wadded on the bun and topped with white cheese, avocado, cilantro, onions, and red chiles that have the texture and sweetness of sun-dried tomatoes. OFF TOPIC (continued): TODAY'S PARKING TICKET INCREASE As stated, NYC many parking tickets will increase from $55 to $105 today. About a week ago, the Associated Press ran an article about it. A spokesman from the NYC Department of Finance (my employer) stated that most fines hadn't been increased since 1975. This is a lie. AP has no ombudsman, so I wrote much earlier today to feedback at ap.org. I got no response. I wrote to info at ap.org and also got no response. If the Associated Press wins a New York Post Liberty Medal, gets a street named after it in Thunder Bay, and wins a humanitarian award, I'm jumping off a roof right now. From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 1 08:53:05 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 04:53:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: A new word -- at least to me In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>So my sister-in-law is telling us about their new kitten and say's "He's >>mizing about in Jack's beard." Hmmmm, mizing. Vas iz das, I >>ask. Eventually I learn that "mizing" (to mize, mize, mized) is an >>Oklahoma (possibly mountain William Oklahoma) word meaning to search in a >>small, crowded place for goodies. One might mize in a purse, but not on >>a table. >>Have you ever heard of this? None of our dictionaries contain it. Superficially this would appear to be the back-formed verb corresponding to "miser", given by OED et al. as "obsolete". DARE does show two examples from recent decades however, with spelling "mize", from 1970 Tennessee and 1991 "Appalachia" IIRC. The sense appears different in DARE, with "mize" more or less = "hoard". But I think the semantic shift or whatever might look less unbelievable if one takes "mize" = "behave like a miser" = "scrabble"/"scrounge", and this is in line with early material in OED, IIRC. I've never encountered it myself. -- Doug Wilson From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Oct 1 12:28:33 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:28:33 +0100 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 13:12:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:12:07 EDT Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: On another mailing list Professor Carlo Minnaja of the University of Padua wrote >Italian educated people can read French easily nearly without studying it, >while even after 10 years of English school courses they can have some >problems in understanding concise newspapers' titles..... I replied t > As for "concise newspapers' titles", they can and do baffle native speakers of > English. For example "Red Tape Holds Up Bridge". > Entire books have been published listing such newspaper headlines that are > so ambiguous that they are funny. I give you one example which will give you > grounds to ponder on how we punish criminals in the USA: > "Drunk Gets Two Weeks In Violin Case" Professor Minnaja responded >A short bibliography (no more than two or three titles) would be appreciated. > > "Drunk Gets Two Weeks In Violin Case" > > Is violine case a jail? I would guess this meaning: > a person who drank too much was sentenced to serve two weeks in a jail > > Is there another hidden meaning? I have seen books of goofy headlines (and I have myself submitted a few to the Columbia Journalism Review) but I have no bibliography available. Can anyone supply Professor Minnaja with book titles? - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 13:24:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:24:08 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" > "Hang a Roscoe" Larry From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 1 13:37:03 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:37:03 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" "hang a Ralph". Jesse Sheidlower From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:10:57 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:10:57 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Exactly. 1950s too. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. > Fritz Juengling > > >>> wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM 09/30/02 03:54PM >>> > Anyone--Joan?--familiar with "davano" as a short form of "davenport" in > regional American speech? (Sorry, I only own volume 1 of DARE.) I'm doing > some work for a British publisher and remembered my grandmother's "davano" > when I was correcting their entry for "davenport." She was born in 1911, in > Nebraska, of Pennsylvania Dutch stock, and moved to Montana in her > twenties. This is the same woman who called parmesan '/par MEE zhun/ > cheese', so I'd like to know if "davano" is just another example of her idolect. > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:18:19 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:18:19 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this > list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' > (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard > the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" I heard "hang a louie" and "hang a rooie" in the early 1970s from a Long Island native. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 15:58:35 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:58:35 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think "Parmesian" cheese must have been fairly widespread (oh all right--widely sprinkled). I remember my father expressing annoyance at the pronunciation after we had bought some at a store (Southern California, late 40s or early 50s). Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." The first time I heard "parmeZHAN" was when I ordered Veal Parmigiano in a restaurant and had the waitress correct me (probably mid- to late 50s, in Oregon). Peter Mc. --On Monday, September 30, 2002 6:37 PM -0500 Beth Simon wrote: > in des moines iowa, it was parMEzian cheese. so much so, that when i > first heard PARmezahn, i inwardly snooted my nose at the speakers. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From self at TOWSE.COM Tue Oct 1 16:02:46 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:02:46 -0700 Subject: automaticity Message-ID: Greg Pulliam wrote: > > Colin Powell used this word on the Jim Lehrer news hour tonight, > referring to the UN resolution the Bush administration wants passed. > Bush wants military action to kick in automatically if Iraq makes any > hedges WRT weapons inspectors, and Powell specifically stated that > this was the word they had been using in discussions. au'to?mat'i?cal?ly adv. au'to?ma?tic'i?ty (-m?-tis'i-te) n. Found as part of the definition for "automatic" in The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Anyone else use Atomica ? With a simple right click ... Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:08:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:08:12 -0700 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was a discussion of these terms--a rather lengthy one, as I recall--on this list a few years ago, so it's probably in the archives. Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 11:18 AM -0400 Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Michael Quinion wrote: > >> Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >> list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >> (mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >> the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" > > I heard "hang a louie" and "hang a rooie" in the early 1970s from a Long > Island native. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:46:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:46:03 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <173186.1033462714@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: At 8:58 AM -0700 10/1/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >I think "Parmesian" cheese must have been fairly widespread (oh all >right--widely sprinkled). I remember my father expressing annoyance at the >pronunciation after we had bought some at a store (Southern California, >late 40s or early 50s). Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." > >The first time I heard "parmeZHAN" was when I ordered Veal Parmigiano in a >restaurant and had the waitress correct me (probably mid- to late 50s, in >Oregon). > The invented "parmeZHAN" pronunciation was standard in New York in the 50s as well. God knows why, since there were enough Italians around, but no one in our neighborhood (Washington Heights, or later Long Beach, LI) called it veal or eggplant "parmigiano" or even "parmesan". I could never figure out the reference either, since the mozzarella always seemed so much more prominent than the parmesan in the recipe, as cheeses go. Oh, and on another thread: I should mention that my response of "Hang a roscoe" as the counterpart of "Hang a louie" was not NY-based (although I am), but from mid-60's California, which is when I first became familiar with the opposition. Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:47:56 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:47:56 -0700 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: like jesse sheidlower, i have "hang a Ralph" as the counterpart to "hang a Louie" - from my college days, 40-44 years ago. i recall first hearing these expressions from my college roommate from sophomore to senior years. for what it's worth, he grew up in louisville, kentucky. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), and the college was princeton From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 1 16:50:27 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:50:27 -0400 Subject: brass monkeys & their travails Message-ID: I happened upon the following discussion on the Naval Histoical Center website (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq107.htm) It supports Michael Quinion's skeptical reply to the question posted recently by James Smith. "The first recorded use of the term "brass monkey" appears to dates to 1857 when it was used in an apparently vulgar context by C.A. Abbey in his book Before the Mast, where on page 108 it says "It would freeze the tail off a brass monkey." [Source: Lighter, J.E. ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 262.] "It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17. ""Brass monkey" is also the nickname for the Cunard Line's house flag which depicts a gold lion rampant on a red field. [Source: Rogers, John. Origins of Sea Terms. (Mystic CT: Mystic Seaport Museum, 1984): 23.] " GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:06:37 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:06:37 -0400 Subject: on hanging Message-ID: A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what I'd have thought. L From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:10:08 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:10:08 -0700 Subject: Roscoe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Oh, and on another thread: I should mention that my response of > "Hang a roscoe" as the counterpart of "Hang a louie" was not NY-based > (although I am), but from mid-60's California, which is when I first > became familiar with the opposition. > > Larry Agreed. Ditto roscoe from northern Illinois (but not Chicago) from the '50s. Maybe among the hoods in the city "hang a roscoe" meant 'suspend a revolver from the car's mirror.' PR From traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR Tue Oct 1 17:08:06 2002 From: traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR (Catherine Merlen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:08:06 +0100 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: le 1/10/02 18:06, Laurence Horn ? laurence.horn at YALE.EDU a ?crit : > A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a > Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from > whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what > I'd have thought. > > L Hello, let's have a google fight !!! at http://www.googlefight.com/index.html whenever you need to check how prevailing an expression is over another. Apologies if this has already been posted here. Catherine From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 17:30:30 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:30:30 EDT Subject: parMEzian cheese Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." Steve Boatti From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:37:35 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:37:35 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <200210011647.g91GluJ15597@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >I also (Louisville ) had hang a Ralph. >like jesse sheidlower, i have "hang a Ralph" as the counterpart >to "hang a Louie" - from my college days, 40-44 years ago. i >recall first hearing these expressions from my college roommate >from sophomore to senior years. for what it's worth, he grew >up in louisville, kentucky. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), and the college was princeton -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 1 15:15:10 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:15:10 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3D99A301.5778.10739B0@localhost> Message-ID: >Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" The book says "hang a Ralph". In my own experience IIRC the person who says "hang a Louie" usually says "hang a right". Not very interesting. -- Doug Wilson From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:00:49 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:00:49 -0400 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English In-Reply-To: <3d.2534f087.2acaf927@aol.com> Message-ID: I know of two that the Columbia Journalism Review has published: "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim" and your "Red Tape Holds Up New Bridge". Jay Leno put one out recently too, but I don't remember what it's called. These all have more than just headlines. Ben > > I have seen books of goofy headlines (and I have myself submitted a few to > the Columbia Journalism Review) but I have no bibliography available. Can > anyone supply Professor Minnaja with book titles? > > - Jim Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:15:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:15:08 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >le 1/10/02 18:06, Laurence Horn ? laurence.horn at YALE.EDU a ?crit : > >> A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >> Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >> whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >> I'd have thought. >> >> L > >Hello, >let's have a google fight !!! at http://www.googlefight.com/index.html >whenever you need to check how prevailing an expression is over another. >Apologies if this has already been posted here. > >Catherine The problem is that when I tried this, it missed the two clear hits on "hang a Roscoe" that turned up on a regular google search. If I had just done the googlefight, I might have really thought I was hallucinating with my memory of Roscoes d'antan, but there they were, both of them, on the search. So careful with those fights. (Did I really say "quite low than what I'd have thought"? I guess I forgot to revise the earlier part of my sentence when I changed the later part.) Larry From simon at IPFW.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:51:04 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:51:04 -0500 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel Message-ID: Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. beth >>> Ittaob at AOL.COM 10/01/02 12:31 PM >>> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." Steve Boatti From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:57:30 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:57:30 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 1:30 PM -0400 Steve Boatti wrote: > I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that > way based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a > conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." But it was either ['parm at z@n] or [par'mi3 at n] , never [parm@'zan] in my experience. And at least standard Italian has an affricate rather than a fricative. Is there perhaps an Italian dialect that has a fricative corresponding to the standard affricate, and that could plausibly have furnished [parm@'3an]? Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 18:45:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:45:25 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty >clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice >the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. >beth Right; that's standard in New Haven Italian and Italo-English as well (aBEETS, muzzarELL, capigol), but what puzzles me is the de-affricatization on "parmigian-". Granted, it would be a least effort phenomenon, but how general is it? Can I expect "azhita" for "agita"? More relevantly, would someone (rather than cheese) who comes from Parma be called "un Parmi-ZHAN" rather than "un Parmigian(o)"? Or is only the cheese that results in the fricativization of the affricate? larry > >>>> Ittaob at AOL.COM 10/01/02 12:31 PM >>> >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >Steve Boatti From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 18:22:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:22:32 EDT Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 2:01:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Jay Leno > put one out recently too, but I don't remember what it's called. Do you mean Jay Leno, ed. _Jay Leno's Headlines: Book I, II, III : Real but Ridiculous Headlines from America's Newspapers_ 1992, ISBN 0517082381 ? - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 1 18:48:29 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:48:29 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <20021001133703.GB9220@panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: # At 1:28 PM +0100 10/1/02, Michael Quinion wrote: #>Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this #>list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' #>(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard #>the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" # #"hang a Ralph". That's mine too. -- Mark A. Mandel From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 17:41:23 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:41:23 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: >Please rememnber final weakly stressed vowel deletion in southern >Italian (and recall that the overwhelming percentage of Italian >immigrants in America come from Sicily and the south) . Therefore, >/par-me-ZHAN/ is what many native speakers would have said (and what >many non-Italian speakers would have heard). dIn Is >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, pronounce >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 1 19:11:46 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:11:46 -0500 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English Message-ID: There's a small Missouri town named Clever. Some 15-20 years ago the police chief there was arrested, and the story in my town's local paper (Rolla Daily News) carried the headline "Clever Police Chief Arrested." I couldn't help thinking: "If he was so clever, what was he doing getting arrested?" But I suppose I was the only one in Rolla who was struck by the unintended ambiguity of the headline. Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla (pronounced RAHluh) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 19:53:51 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:53:51 EDT Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 2:17:03 PM, simon at IPFW.EDU writes: << Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. beth >> And they should leave out these vowels, if the intent is to mimic speech patterns of Southern Italian immigrants. Most S. Italian dialects leave out such final vowels. Steve Boatti From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Oct 1 20:08:07 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:08:07 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <125.17810f9a.2acb35b6@aol.com> Message-ID: I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky from Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to come from Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. She said it should be pronounced ParemZHAN. Quoting Steve Boatti : > In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter > Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound > more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, > pronounce > spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > > I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that > way > based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a > conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > > Steve Boatti > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 20:25:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:25:36 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <1033502887.3d9a00a7222f1@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: At 4:08 PM -0400 10/1/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: >I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky from >Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to come from >Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. I've never seen this spelling in cookbooks or on menus. How common is it? I've just encountered "parmigiano" and "parmesan". Or maybe "parmegiano". Never "parmesian". > She said it should be pronounced >ParemZHAN. (1) Parem-? Are you sure? (2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular lexical item? Is there a dessription of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift in Italian dialects? Larry > >Quoting Steve Boatti : > >> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: >> >> << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been >> supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by Peter >> Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word sound >> more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, >> pronounce >> spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> >> >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it that >> way >> based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, a >> conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." >> >> Steve Boatti >> From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Tue Oct 1 21:15:39 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:15:39 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So sorry I can not spell today. parmesan is what is should have said. But she pronounces it "parmezahn". Quoting Laurence Horn : > At 4:08 PM -0400 10/1/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: > >I have an aunt from Italy. When she first came to live in Kentucky > from > >Italy, she was constantly correcting anything we said that seemed to > come from > >Italian. The biggest of which was parmesian. > > I've never seen this spelling in cookbooks or on menus. How common > is it? I've just encountered "parmigiano" and "parmesan". Or maybe > "parmegiano". Never "parmesian". > > > She said it should be pronounced > >ParemZHAN. > > (1) Parem-? Are you sure? > (2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How > widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular > lexical item? Is there a dessription of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift > in Italian dialects? > > Larry > > > > >Quoting Steve Boatti : > > > >> In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > >> > >> << Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > >> supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as also noted by > Peter > >> Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: "To make a word > sound > >> more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the last syllable, > >> pronounce > >> spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling cues." >> > >> > >> I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from Italian-Americans pronouncing it > that > >> way > >> based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." In other words, > a > >> conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > >> > >> Steve Boatti > >> > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 1 21:50:18 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:50:18 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 skidoo"? It appears that the story is buried in the pre-1999 archives, at the moment unavailable. Does anyone remember? Well, Barry does, of course. There is a 100th anniversary display on the Flatiron building currently up at the N-Y Historical Society, and this has prompted an article in yesterday's NY Times (September 30), which included the following: "The building of the Flatiron was such a prolonged affair that historians still debate exactly when it opened. For doubters, Ms. Berman has a picture of the Flatiron sporting two signs announcing the building ready for occupancy Oct. 1, 1902. "There is also all that lore about the phrase "23 skiddoo," attributed to the fierce Flatiron winds that raised skirts and attracted the interest of passing gentlemen. Police officers there kept the gawkers moving along by saying "23 skiddoo," the equivalent of "scram." "Evidence to support this windy legend includes Library of Congress film footage from 1903 that shows Flatiron gusts, billowing skirts, male sidewalk superintendents and a flatfoot on the Flatiron beat." The Ms. Berman quoted is the author of a recent history of Madison Square and perhaps the curator of the N-YHS's exhibit. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pds at VISI.COM Tue Oct 1 22:17:05 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:17:05 -0500 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: I think you'll find answers to this one in the ADS-L Archives. I've heard both "Ralph" and "Ritchie" for right. And "U-ie" for U-turn. At 01:28 PM 10/1/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Here's one that should be right up the street of many people on this >list. Query from a subscriber: "I've heard the term 'hang a Louie' >(mainly from New York cabbies) for 'turn left', but I've never heard >the corresponding one for 'turn right'. Is there one?" Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 1 22:23:17 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:23:17 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20021001171705.00b5be30@pop.visi.com> Message-ID: Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Oct 1 22:26:13 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <001701c268f9$f8c54b20$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I had thought that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" because of the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual >acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of >low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when >others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having >contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest >Gump is present for many great historical events. > >I've never heard this used before. From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Oct 1 22:29:04 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:29:04 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm with you: in the Northwest, 1960s and 1970s: we said Roscoe. At 01:06 PM 10/1/02 -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >I'd have thought. > >L From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 1 22:28:54 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:28:54 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: My wife, from suburban Boston, says this. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Joanne M. Despres [mailto:jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Hang a Louie Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Oct 1 22:31:02 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:31:02 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport Message-ID: Fritz and all: > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. When I was growing up in Seattle in the 50's and early 60's, I used to hear "daveno" all the time, too. I think it kind of dropped out after that, or else all I heard was "davenport" or "sofa". I don't think "daveno" is used much any more. At least not around here. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 22:33:27 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:33:27 -0700 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182348.00a6eec0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Yes, the movie was specifically mentioned. Plus the sense was not so much foolish or stupid, but more having been a witness to great things without being a contributor. > Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I > had thought > that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" > because of > the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . > > > At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > >While having lunch with business associates today, one > referred to a mutual > >acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a > software executive of > >low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of > being present when > >others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having > >contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional > character Forrest > >Gump is present for many great historical events. > > > >I've never heard this used before. > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 22:35:48 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:35:48 -0400 Subject: Gump In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182348.00a6eec0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: >Please remember that there is a generation or two (and perhaps even >a side of the Atlantic which believes 'Forrest' is the Ur-form. dInIs dInIs >Was he consciously using it in reference to Forrest Gump? I had thought >that the character's name, like that of Andy Gump, was "Gump" because of >the term "gump" meaning 'foolish or stupid person' . > >At 08:23 PM 9/30/02 -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: >>While having lunch with business associates today, one referred to a mutual >>acquaintance as "a gump." The person in question is a software executive of >>low-to-mediocre skills and talents who has a history of being present when >>others do great things and reaping the benefits, despite his having >>contributed little or nothing--much like the fictional character Forrest >>Gump is present for many great historical events. >> >>I've never heard this used before. -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 1 22:37:45 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:37:45 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not just your wife. If my driving experiences in Boston are typical, everybody bangs everything when behind the wheel. dInIs (who'd rather drive in Paris or even Athens) > My wife, from suburban Boston, says this. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joanne M. Despres [mailto:jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 6:23 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Hang a Louie > > >Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine >from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a >mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which >concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From P2052 at AOL.COM Tue Oct 1 23:07:12 2002 From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:07:12 EDT Subject: automaticity Message-ID: I first heard the term in a Second Language Acquisition class I took approximately 15 years ago. It was used to refer to an immediate appropriate response to a verbal situation (as opposed to hesitation while trying to think of an appropriate response). If memory serves me right, when a person reaches that level ("automaticity"), then (s)he has acquired native or near-native competence (in that situation, at least). I didn't hear General Powell's speech, but I would assume that he used the term to indicate that same idea of immediacy--and appropriateness--when responding to a threat (whether direct or indirect) from Iraq, for hesitation in that case could make Sagan's hypothetical nuclear winter a grim reality. PAT From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 1 23:19:23 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:19:23 -0700 Subject: automaticity In-Reply-To: <135.1545c0cc.2acb84a0@aol.com> Message-ID: > I didn't hear General Powell's speech, but I would assume > that he used the > term to indicate that same idea of immediacy--and > appropriateness--when > responding to a threat (whether direct or indirect) from > Iraq, for hesitation > in that case could make Sagan's hypothetical nuclear winter a > grim reality. Powell was using in the context of whether there would be one UN resolution or two. The first option would be to issue one resolution that demands inspections and authorizes use of "all necessary means" if Iraq didn't comply. This resolution would have "automaticity." The other option would be to demand inspections. If Iraq didn't comply, the Security Council would meet again and decide an appropriate course of action. This option would not have "automaticity." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 1 23:35:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:35:32 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001182816.00a683a0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: At 6:29 PM -0400 10/1/02, Wendalyn Nichols wrote: >I'm with you: in the Northwest, 1960s and 1970s: we said Roscoe. > >At 01:06 PM 10/1/02 -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >>A quick google check shows "hang a Ralph" whipping up on "hang a >>Roscoe" 21-2. At least I hadn't been creating my Roscoe version from >>whole cloth, just rare cloth. Both scores seem quite low than what >>I'd have thought. >> >>L West Coast vs. East Coast, perhaps? From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 2 01:03:33 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:03:33 -0500 Subject: "23 skiddoo" Message-ID: I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. Gerald Cohen >At 5:50 PM -0400 10/1/02, George Thompson wrote: >What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 >skidoo"? It appears that the story is buried in the pre-1999 >archives, at the moment unavailable. Does anyone remember? Well, >Barry does, of course. > >There is a 100th anniversary display on the Flatiron building >currently up at the N-Y Historical Society, and this has prompted an >article in yesterday's NY Times (September 30), which included the >following: >"The building of the Flatiron was such a prolonged affair that >historians still debate exactly when it opened. For doubters, Ms. >Berman has a picture of the Flatiron sporting two signs announcing >the building ready for occupancy Oct. 1, 1902. >"There is also all that lore about the phrase "23 skiddoo," >attributed to the fierce Flatiron winds that raised skirts and >attracted the interest of passing gentlemen. Police officers there >kept the gawkers moving along by saying "23 skiddoo," the equivalent >of "scram." >"Evidence to support this windy legend includes Library of Congress >film footage from 1903 that shows Flatiron gusts, billowing skirts, >male sidewalk superintendents and a flatfoot on the Flatiron beat." > >The Ms. Berman quoted is the author of a recent history of Madison >Square and perhaps the curator of the N-YHS's exhibit. > From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET Wed Oct 2 03:39:21 2002 From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:39:21 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: In Boston we bang a left, bang a right, and, most commonly, bang a U-ee. (I don't vouch for the spelling of "U-ee.") Phil Cleary From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 04:54:49 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:54:49 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry Horn: >(2) I'm still not sure where and when the fricative developed. How >widespread is this for Italian -gi-/-ge- outside this particular >lexical item? Is there a description of a general /dzh/-->/zh/ shift >in Italian dialects? I don't think it's restricted to "parmesan". How do we pronounce "adagio"? How do the French pronounce it? If it was adopted into English from French, how "should" it be pronounced? If it was adopted directly from Italian, how "should" it be pronounced? Do most persons (even sophisticated ones) immediately know whether it was adopted proximately from Italian or from French? I would (perhaps erroneously?) assume "parmesan" to be French and use an Anglicized French pronunciation /parm at zan/; I would assume "parmigiano" to be Italian and use an Anglicized Italian pronunciation /parmIdZanow/. But does the typical US-an on the street have even my naive/primitive understanding of the distinction? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 05:00:29 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:00:29 -0400 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard "bang" for "hang" occasionally, FWIW. As for what the right should be named ... here is a chance for some multiculturalism or ethnic diversity for sure. If the left is the English/French "Louie"/"Louis", then the right should be Spanish "Ruy" (= "rooie" as someone said). The U turn which I've heard as "U-ie" might be Japanese "Yui" perhaps. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 05:23:09 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:23:09 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to >putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided >at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as the original sense. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 11:12:20 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:12:20 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," In-Reply-To: <67efe567fa4e.67fa4e67efe5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: If you believe, as I do, that etymological explanations contained in the earliest known attestation should carry a lot of weight, then "23" in conjunction with "skidoo" seems to refer to the fact that ferries left from 23rd Street. See the 1906 citation in the OED. But perhaps Barry has earlier evidence. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 12:47:53 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:47:53 -0700 Subject: on hanging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002005514.04616540@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: .... >The U turn which I've > heard as "U-ie" might be > Japanese "Yui" perhaps. > > -- Doug Wilson I think it's American-English for "U"-ie ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 13:15:31 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:15:31 EDT Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/02 5:50:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > What is the present state of play regarding the origin of "23 skidoo"? The following appears at URL http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/811.html It gives not only the extremely persistent Flatiron Building story but two others as well, and for dessert cites our favorite cartoonist, TAD I lifted the following word for word from the Word Detective: : The puzzle of "twenty-three skiddoo," which can mean "let's go," "get lost," "whoopee!," or a variety of other things, is one of the classic word-origin questions, and nearly every authority has at least one theory. : The "skiddoo" part is fairly easy to trace, and is almost certainly a variant of the slang word "skedaddle," meaning "to depart in haste." The "twenty-three," however, is a bit more obscure. One theory, which is often reported as fact, but isn't, traces the phrase to the corner of Twenty-third Street and Broadway in New York City. This is the location of the famous Flatiron Building, built in 1902 and known for the fierce updrafts its triangular shape (resembling an old-style flatiron) causes on the neighboring sidewalks. It is said that young men of the period would gather at this corner in hopes of seeing a lady's dress blown up by the wind, a practice which the local police would discourage with the gruff order "Twenty-three skiddoo!" Early films of the "dress blowing" phenomenon do, in fact, exist. You can even download one from the Library of Congress site on the Web. But "Twenty-three Skiddoo" was a popular phrase among young people as early as the 1890's, long before the Flatiron Building, which caused the wind storms in the first place, was even built. : The late etymologist Eric Partridge reported that one of his correspondents felt that the phrase might have had its roots in old telegraphers' code, where common phrases were replaced by numbers. In this code, "30" sent in Morse code meant "end of transmission" (a notation still used by journalists to signal the end of a story), "73" meant "best regards" (still very much in use by amateur radio operators), and "23" meant "away with you!" This seems a far more likely explanation of the phrase. : http://www.greenapple.com/~words1/backidx.html And here's another theory: 23 skidoo ? From ?Who Put the Butter in Butterfly?? by David Feldman, Harper & Row: ?Why is the only number you see before skidoo 23? Who would have thought that this breezy bit of slang has lofty roots? It does, in Charles Dickens ?Tale of Two Cities.? The hero of this sad novel is Sidney Carton, who is the twenty-third of a multitude executed by the guillotine. : In the last act of the theatrical adaptation, ?The Only Way,? an old woman sits at the foot of the guillotine, calmly counting heads as they are lopped off. The only recognition or dignity afforded Carton as he meets his fate is the old woman emotionlessly saying ?twenty-three? as he is beheaded. : ?Twenty-three? quickly became a popular catchphrase among the theater community in the early twentieth century, often used to mean, ?It?s time to leave while the getting is good.? Cartoonist T.A. Dorgan combined ?twenty-three? with ?skidoo.? Skidoo was simply a fanciful variant of ?skedaddle.?? : (Skedaddle, according to ?The Dictionary of Contemporary Slang? by Tony Thorne, Pantheon Books, originated in the American Civil War and ??suggestions have been made as to the word?s derivation; it is probably a form of a dialect version of ?scatter? or ?scuttle.??) - Jim Landau From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 2 13:20:30 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:20:30 -0400 Subject: Newspaper Headlines in, uh, English In-Reply-To: <1ad.9751d3d.2acb41e8@aol.com> Message-ID: > Do you mean Jay Leno, ed. _Jay Leno's Headlines: Book I, II, III : Real but > Ridiculous Headlines from America's Newspapers_ 1992, ISBN 0517082381 ? > That sounds about right. I didn't know there was/were more than one. From jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 13:31:35 2002 From: jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (James Kossuth) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:31:35 -0400 Subject: Hang a Louie In-Reply-To: <03532712527324@merriam.m-w.com> Message-ID: Growing up outside Boston, I always banged a Roger or a Louie. James. From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Oct 2 13:53:33 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:53:33 -0400 Subject: 'play computer' Message-ID: I just heard a phrase come from the mouth of a CS prof, which I haven't heard in a while (that I am aware of). He said something like, "If you can play computer, you can do [X]". I heard this same thing from a guy a few years ago (it stuck in my mind I do not know why), who was not an adept computer user. I remember attributing it to his diminuation of other people's ability to with computers (as in, "he's coming over to play computer" meant, "he's coming over to install a printer driver (or something) for me"). The CS prof used it in a similar context - implying that being able to do something like massage user prefs is akin to "playing computer". I am wondering if this is a phrase with legs. I am wondering if it is, whether it is always used to imply some sort of mid-level computer knowledge - like hand-manipulating libraries, writing macros in MSOffice, or utilizing little javascript doodads on webpages - the sort of stuff that isn't apparent or accessible to a less curious computer user, but isn't nearly as nitty-gritty as what the CS or IT guys do. The obligatory search for the phrase on google generated too many instances of 'computer' being used to modify nouns like 'game' or 'sound' to quickly get any useful results. And now I play java programmer: InformaticsIdiom playComputer = new InformaticsIdiom(Phrase, to play, computer, "utilize mid-level computer knowledge"); //Throws AdjectivalNounException From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 14:23:26 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:23:26 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody else noticed this difference? Joanne Despres From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 14:37:22 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:37:22 -0700 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Could anyone recommend some sources that describe these dialects? I'm interested in where this pronunciation comes from. I know several Sicilians and they don't have the final vowel deletion. Ed --- "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >Please rememnber final weakly stressed vowel > deletion in southern > >Italian (and recall that the overwhelming > percentage of Italian > >immigrants in America come from Sicily and the > south) . Therefore, > >/par-me-ZHAN/ is what many native speakers would > have said (and what > >many non-Italian speakers would have heard). > > dIn Is > > > >In a message dated 10/1/02 11:59:06 AM, > pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > > > ><< Now the invented "Parmesian" seems to have been > >supplanted by the equally invented "parmeZHAN" (as > also noted by Peter > >Richardson), apparently via the line of reasoning: > "To make a word sound > >more foreign, and hence more authentic, stress the > last syllable, pronounce > >spelled as 'zh' and ignore all other spelling > cues." >> > > > >I suspect "Par-me-ZHAN" comes from > Italian-Americans pronouncing it that way > >based on the Italian pronunciation of "Parmigiano." > In other words, a > >conflation of "Par-me-ZAN" with "Par-mi-JAN-o." > > > >Steve Boatti > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 > e-mail: preston at msu.edu > phone: (517) 353-9290 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Oct 2 14:44:38 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:44:38 -0400 Subject: on hanging Message-ID: I've always heard U-y as "Huey" to rhyme w/"Louie" but I never heard a right-turn term that I remember. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 14:46:23 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:46:23 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <3D9AC91E.9484.8EA94C0@localhost> Message-ID: I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). dInIs Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody else noticed this difference? Joanne Despres -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Oct 2 14:53:47 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:53:47 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have both as well, but I think I have a preference for "take a left/right" over "make". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device > selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us > quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > > dInIs > > > > > > Another directional idiom that seems to vary according to region is > the expression "take vs. make a left/right." It seems to me that > metropolitan New Yorkers always say "make" in that context, > whereas most New Englanders would say "take." Has anybody > else noticed this difference? > > Joanne Despres > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 14:55:39 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:55:39 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatemnt on TV! Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 2 15:03:02 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:03:02 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > >dInIs ~~~~~~ I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a woman, "take," to a man. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 15:06:39 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:06:39 EDT Subject: 23 skiddoo; Roastmaster; Communiversity; Nigella Bites; TONY 2003 Message-ID: 23 SKIDDOO As I posted here several years ago, it was entertainer Billy Vann who put together the independent slang terms "23" and "skiddoo." "23" has existed since at least 1899--before the Flatiron Building. The New York Times and the New-York Historical Society both should have known this. Tell them both that I live here and give my work out for free. MORE NYHS: As of September, the NYPL has suffered budget cuts and has been closed Mondays. It's open Tuesday-Saturday. The NYHS library is also open Tuesday-Saturday. So I came up with a brainstorm--why doesn't the NYHS library open Monday (say, Monday-Friday)? Wouldn't that make sense? So, I e-mailed the NYHS about it. I also told them that their web page information on "the Big Apple" was wrong. No one replied. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROASTMASTER There are about 1,500 Google hits for "roastmaster." From DAN'S PAPERS, 27 September 2002, pg. 10, col. 3: "Late Show with David Letterman" bandleader _Paul Shaffer_ will serve as "Roastmaster" and lead the charge in directing "THe New York Friars Club Celebrity Roast for _Chevy Chase_" on Saturday, September 28th at the New York Hilton Hotel. (Is the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD interested in this definition of "roast"?--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COMMUNIVERSITY From RENSSELAER (alumni magazine), September 2002, pg. 12, col. 1: ...President Jackson's vision of "communiversity," a term to describe Rensselaer's working relationship with Troy and the Capital Region. (Communiversity=community + university. Sometime, commune + university. It goes way back on Google to at least the early 1980s--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TIME OUT NEW YORK EATING & DRINKING GUIDE 2003 Edition 4 344 pages, paperback, $11.95 It's the same large size as last year, despite the fact that NYC restaurants are fewer. It's neatly divided into ethnic restaurants. For those who miss Tibet and have gotta have momos, for example, Pg. 203 shows you the restaurants Dokpa, Lhasa, Shangrila, Tibetan Yak, and Tsampa. As usual, the book has a Manhattan bias, unfortunately. There are three categories for American: American, American Creative, and American Regional There is a TONY 100 "Best in Chow." I'd appreciate if they'd add just a page on new stuff, about how this edition differs from last year's. Maybe an "In/Out" list. It would save me time. I'll report on this week's monster "Best of New York" VILLAGE VOICE perhaps a little later. ----------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- O.T.: NIGELLA BITES Nigella Lawson is a new food columnist for THE NEW YORK TIMES. She's British. She reports today, for example: "So if you think British food is bad, it's because you don't really know British food." We'll get week after week of this. Wonderful. I couldn't help thinking of Bonnie Slotnick, the owner of a cookbook store in Greenwish Village. (Attention to NEW YORK TIMES: Greenwich Village is in New York.) I remembered our discussion after reading in the NEW YORK TIMES about the Brownstone food collection "donation" to NYU. "Donation?" she told me. "NYU _bought_ it!" Bonnie Slotnick knows stuff like that. And I thought that somewhere, in this world of Martha Stewarts and Paul Shaffer Drives and Oprah Winfrey Humanitarian Awards and Enron and Worldcom and Qwest, wouldn't it be great if the NEW YORK TIMES turned down Nigella Lawson and gave the same space to Bonnie Slotnick? I mean, maybe just once, in a million, gazillion years... Ah, forget it. Never happen. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:12:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:12:09 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <20021002145539.8807.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. dInIs >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ >the other night. It's supposed to take place in >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to >get proper treatemnt on TV! > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! >http://sbc.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:15:21 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:15:21 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since my (poorly-felt) introspection gives me the opposite inclination for "formality" ("make" seems more casual), I stick to my anti-introspective guns (never, of course, denying the folk linguistic value of what people "feel" to be the case). dInIs >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). > >dInIs ~~~~~~ I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a woman, "take," to a man. A. Murie -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:32:22 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:32:22 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo," Message-ID: This is from a delightful novel/guidebook published in 1904: The Real New York, by Rupert Hughes. "It's a little windy to-day," said Miss Collis, who was hanging on to her skirts with one half-paralyzed hand. "Wait till we come to the Flatiron Building!" he said. "There is is, dead ahead of us. Isn't it a beauty? Some people say it is hideous, but I think it's as perfect, in its way, as the Parthenon. *** What's the Parthenon but a very beautiful shed, build like a wooden barn, only with marble beams and gables and with statuary instead of circus posters pasted on it? The Flatiron is like a glorious white ship. ***" With malice prepense he led her round Madison Square, so that she could cross directly in front of the bows of the skyscraper. . . . As they approached, she noticed little groups of men standing in knots at lee-corners. "What are those men watching?" "They're art students and connoisseurs," he said, "though some of them, I think, must be in dry-goods, waiting to learn the newest styles in hosiery." The wind was a zesty breeze elsewhere, but it blew a gale round this building, whose owners were once actually sued for raising such a wind as kept smashing in the plate glass of nearby shops. "Look at that hat!" cried De Peyster. And Miss Collis saw a tiny derby soaring like a kite as high as the eighteenth or twentieth story of the building. But Miss Collis had little time to watch these aeronautics, for she had troubles of her own. *** As for her skirts, though she clung to them with both hands, they snapped and swirled about her like a flag in a tempest. She was buffeted into other women, who were trying vainly to keep down appearances; the skirts of some were actually blown over their heads. Pp. 26-28, with a fine illustration on p. 27 by Hy. Meyer of the Flatiron building with hats and umbrellas swirling around it. Meanwhile, the lawsuit against the owners of the Flatiron Building was reported in the NYTimes on Januray 24, 1903, p. 8. And on February 6, 1903, p. 1 the Times had a long report on a damaging windstorm under the headline "Wind Causes Boy's Death; Blows Him Under an Automobile Near Flatiron Building; Windows Smashed Along Broadway -- The Gale Terrific Throughout the City -- A Fifth Avenue Runaway." So there is no question that the Flatiron Building, which would have been the only tall building in the neighborhood at the time, disrupted the usual flow of air in unexpected ways, and evidently the film being transmitted by the Library of Congress these days proves that cops were assigned to the corner to keep order. What's absent is any evidence that the cops said "23 skiddoo" when rousting the gawking corner-boys. Somehow it doesn't seem a very likely line. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 15:58:04 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:58:04 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Skidoo"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is an antedating of sorts: The OED's earliest citation for "skidoo" is dated 1905. But a search of ProQuest Historical Newspapers pull up an article in the N.Y. Times, 23 June 1901, p. 8, about the New Rochelle Yacht Club regatta. In a list of boats in that regatta one of them is named "Skidoo." I cannot tell for sure whether this is the same word as the verb meaning "to go away hurriedly," but in all likelihood it is the same word. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 16:27:44 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:27:44 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <20021002145539.8807.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would have to agree with you there. I'm from KY myself and I don't know how many shows, etc. that make me mad about how they portray Kentuckians with dialects, personality, etc. Annie Bush --- Ed Keer wrote: > Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of > _Hack_ > the other night. It's supposed to take place in > Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those > Hollywood > people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails > to > get proper treatemnt on TV! > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 16:43:26 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:43:26 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third > psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with > departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. > > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to > putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided > at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for "taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 16:52:31 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:52:31 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002012123.0460a140@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > the original sense. Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is there for a preference? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Wed Oct 2 17:45:13 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:45:13 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatment on TV! This isn't TV but the movies. I really enjoyed Mulholland Drive, but at one point the character from Deep River, Ontario says she is going to "fix" a sandwich, which is jarring. Best, Don From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Wed Oct 2 17:29:37 2002 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:29:37 -0700 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I always thought "take a powder" meant "go powder your nose". Women leave the table so the men can talk. If you are a man of no stature in the group, then you take a powder with the women. Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:43 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "23 skiddoo" On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third > psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with > departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. > > Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to > putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided > at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for "taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in one's drink? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:02:21 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:02:21 -0400 Subject: parMEzian cheese In-Reply-To: <20021002143722.3572.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:37 AM -0700 10/2/02, Ed Keer wrote: >Could anyone recommend some sources that describe >these dialects? I'm interested in where this >pronunciation comes from. I know several Sicilians and >they don't have the final vowel deletion. > >Ed > It's standard in Neapolitan, including the greater Campania area, and from what I understand well beyond that in the lower part of the boot. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:06:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:06:45 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:03 AM -0400 10/2/02, sagehen wrote: > >I have both, and introspection fails about the selectivity device >>selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good thing; otherwise us >>quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't have squat to do). >> >>dInIs >~~~~~~ >I also have both, but feel that selection is a matter of register: depends >on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly more hip; "make," more >formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might also say "make" to a >woman, "take," to a man. >A. Murie Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", combining with the thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard you see coming down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just outside New Jersey's Capital City, reading TRENTON MAKES THE WORLD TAKES I've never been able to figure out if this is pride speaking, or a complaint. Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 2 18:04:57 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:04:57 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" Message-ID: While we're waiting for Doug Wilson to produce support for his conjecture, I'd like to point out that it isn't as far-fetched as it might seem. The original form of the phrase, if the OED citations are any guide, was "take a run-out powder," and the identification of run-out powders with laxatives seems plausible, though of course still conjectural. This is hardly an end to the inquiry. If "take a run-out powder" means "take a laxative and leave to go to the bathroom," we would expect that "run-out powder" would mean "laxative" literally. As far as I know, that has not yet been demonstrated. Perhaps Barry can help? Also, I haven't checked RHHDAS. "Take a powder" usually implies the possibility of a later return, so that seems inconsistent with the theory that the powder is a suicidal poison, a theory without any other obvious support. The "powder room" theory is consistent with the meaning but not with the early "run-out powder" uses. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:53 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "23 skiddoo" On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > the original sense. Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is there for a preference? Fred Shapiro From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 17:12:52 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:12:52 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: << Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatment on TV! Ed >> I'm not from West Virginia, but I was amused at the awful rendition of West Virginia dialect that ran through the film A BEAUTIFUL MIND. It might have been convincing for coastal South Carolina, but it didn't work for me for Appalachia. Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So filmmakers who do this are interested in verisimilitude, not accuracy. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 2 18:09:03 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:09:03 -0400 Subject: "23 skiddoo" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I doubt the "poison" sense here. I tentatively prefer a laxative powder as > > the original sense. > >Again, what is your evidence? And if there is no evidence, what basis is >there for a preference? > >Fred Shapiro Well, I said "tentatively" after all. Of course there is some evidence, although I've seen none which I know to be decisive: thus "tentative". In the early 20th century and earlier, I believe "take a powder" had a transparent conventional meaning like "take a pill" does today, viz., "take a dose [presumably of medication]". There were many kinds of powders, but the pharmacopeia was quite narrow by modern standards: laxatives, analgesics, and soporifics were commonplace powders. So if one said "I couldn't sleep, so I took a powder" one would understand this to refer to a soporific; today it would be "... so I took a pill" more often, I guess. In the early days of "take a powder" = "depart", maybe 1920 or so, there was the variant "take a run-out powder" meaning "run out" = "depart": this is analogous to the modern "take a chill pill" = "chill", i.e., "cool off"/"calm down". Three types of powder have been proposed here: poison (e.g., Cohen), magical powder which makes one disappear (e.g., Chapman), laxative powder (e.g., Partridge). Of these, the laxative possibility best accounts for the "run-out" connection IMHO (BTW, I tentatively take "run out" as "run out to the toilet" rather than referring crudely to a liquid trickling out). A completely speculative possibility: Tarrant's Aperient [a common laxative powder ca. 1900] > "Tarrant powder" > jocular "tear-out powder" [meaning one must tear out to the toilet after the dose] > "run-out powder" [with double-entendre].; In the absence of direct evidence, one can employ reason. For example, I know of no strong evidence for the derivation of "chad", but derivation from a Scots word for "gravel" is a reasonable tentative concept while the acronymic origin is implausible and the "Mr. Chadless" etymology is laughable (IMHO). That's why Fred Shapiro put forth the "gravel" hypothesis in "Verbatim" in 2001. Another example which I've exposed here: "poontang". Is it from French "putain" (US ca. 1910)? Seems reasonable, but where is the evidence? I know of none, and I can think of four other plausible etymologies ... but it's good enough for a tentative guess, for the OED, and for M-W, and for me too. When there is 'evidence', there is often still room for considerable doubt. For example, Popik and Cohen have presented texts supporting the name "Jinks" as the ancestor of the word "jinx" = "curse", but I do not agree that the evidence is at all convincing (see recent posts on this list). Read presents very extensive textual support for his "OK" derivation (which I find reasonably convincing), but not everyone is satisfied. Etc. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:17:38 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:17:38 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <001001c26a3b$75f80b40$0101a8c0@billionbridges1> Message-ID: At 1:45 PM -0400 10/2/02, Billionbridges.com wrote: > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to >> get proper treatment on TV! > >This isn't TV but the movies. I really enjoyed Mulholland >Drive, but at one point the character from Deep River, >Ontario says she is going to "fix" a sandwich, which is >jarring. > >Best, >Don Given the context, that could have been from within someone else's dream, though. With David Lynch, you never know. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:21:35 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:21:35 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn said: > >Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", combining with the >thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard you see coming >down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just outside New >Jersey's Capital City, reading > >TRENTON MAKES >THE WORLD TAKES > >I've never been able to figure out if this is pride speaking, or a complaint. > My reaction to this sign has always been "and they're *bragging* about this?????" -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From simon at IPFW.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:33:53 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:33:53 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: So Ron, what do you think of the If You Build It Shoeless Joe Will Emerge From The Cornfield baseball movie (I'm blanking the title), set, we are told, outside of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. (Is it supposed to be Corralville?) Especially galling was the we are Iowans hence we are sometimes r-less, palatalizing, vicious self-righteous idiots ban the book fscene. beth >>> RonButters at AOL.COM 10/02/02 13:08 PM >>> In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: << Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ the other night. It's supposed to take place in Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras actually sounded like Baltimorians. Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to get proper treatment on TV! Ed >> I'm not from West Virginia, but I was amused at the awful rendition of West Virginia dialect that ran through the film A BEAUTIFUL MIND. It might have been convincing for coastal South Carolina, but it didn't work for me for Appalachia. Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So filmmakers who do this are interested in verisimilitude, not accuracy. From simon at IPFW.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:34:45 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:34:45 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: oy, sorry, mine wasn't tv either. beth beth >>> translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM 10/02/02 12:44 PM >>> > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatment on TV! This isn't TV but the movies. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 18:43:13 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:43:13 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:33 PM -0500 10/2/02, Beth Simon wrote: >So Ron, what do you think of the If You Build It Shoeless Joe Will >Emerge From The Cornfield baseball movie (I'm blanking the title) Field of Dreams >, set, we are told, outside of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. (Is it supposed >to be Corralville?) > >Especially galling was the we are Iowans hence we are sometimes >r-less, palatalizing, vicious self-righteous idiots ban the book >fscene. > >beth > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 19:10:03 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:10:03 -0700 Subject: Davano for davenport Message-ID: I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some parts of the country? Fritz > Davenport was the usual term for that piece of furniture in the 1960s and 70s in Portland Oregon. Daveno was simply a shortened form of that . Heard it all the time. >When I was growing up in Seattle in the 50's and early 60's, I used to hear "daveno" all the time, too. I think it kind of dropped out after that, or else all I heard was "davenport" or "sofa". I don't think "daveno" is used much any more. At least not around here. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 2 19:19:21 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:19:21 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", > combining with the > thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard > you see coming > down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just > outside New > Jersey's Capital City, reading > > TRENTON MAKES > THE WORLD TAKES > > I've never been able to figure out if this is pride > speaking, or a complaint. > > Larry I've always loved that sign, which by the way is also in large neon letters on a bridge crossing the Delaware from Trenton to PA. I've tried collecting similar slogans with unintended (?) other readings. Unfortunately, the only other one that comes to mind is New Hampshire's LIVE FREE OR DIE which always seemed like a threat to me. Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 2 19:19:28 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:19:28 -0400 Subject: Radio dialects Message-ID: If I may expand this thread to include yet another broadcast medium, there's something I've been wondering about for close to 20 years: what the heck kind of accent does Clayelle Dalferes of WQXR have? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Wed Oct 2 19:31:36 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:31:36 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Quoting "Dennis R. Preston" : > Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from > those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly > Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. > > dInIs > > >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > >the other night. It's supposed to take place in > >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > >get proper treatemnt on TV! > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From AnneR at HKUSA.COM Wed Oct 2 19:22:13 2002 From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:22:13 -0500 Subject: Hang a Louie Message-ID: I grew up in suburban Boston (Acton), and we always said "bang a U-ie" although I've never heard anything about Louie, Ralph, or Roscoe! Anne Rogers >-----Original Message----- > >Has anybody heard the expression "bang a (left/right/etc.)"? A friend of mine >from eastern MA uses it, and I've never been sure whether it's a >mistake, a reinterpretation, or a legitimate variant (all of which >concepts, I realize, shade off into each other). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 19:35:45 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:35:45 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. >>> mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 10/02/02 12:31PM >>> The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Quoting "Dennis R. Preston" : > Hmmmm. What a venting it would be if the authentic speakers from > those areas represented by such TV-reality shows as the Beverly > Hillbillies, Dukes of Hazard, and their ilk were were vented upon. > > dInIs > > >Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > >the other night. It's supposed to take place in > >Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > >seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > >people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > >makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > >actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > > >Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > >get proper treatemnt on TV! > > > >Ed > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 2 20:09:29 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:09:29 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: >Of course, most Americans think there is only one Southern >WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in GONE WITH THE WIND. So I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. Fritz From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 20:59:58 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:59:58 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 4:09:01 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes: << I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. Fritz >> I meant the fake accents that virtually all the characters in movies from the 1930s assumed. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 21:02:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:02:26 -0400 Subject: Joe Special (1965); Rivel (1862) Message-ID: JOE SPECIAL Just to follow up on the "Joe Special" seen in ROADFOOD (2002). SAN FRANCISCO FIREHOURSE FAVORITES Indianapolis: Boobs-Merrill Co., Inc. 1965 Pg. 127: GAZONK EGGPLANT (Gazonk seems to be anything that is undefined.) Pg. 153: In San Francisco, Italian restaurants with Italian chefs almost invariably have a "special" of spinach and eggs and hamburger--and the special takes the name of the restaurant. Probably Joe's was first: Supposedly, for lack of enough ground beef to make a "hamburger on the French (roll)," for some closing-hour customer, the chef composed Joe's special--of the things on hand. George Dwyer titles his special to honor another Italian restaurant; he usually makes it at the firehouse at the appropriate after-midnight hour. (...) BRUNO'S SPECIAL (...) --------------------------------------------------------------- RIVEL I have no idea about the next DARE. Anybody? From the database NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES, and: Cormany, Rachel Bowman, 1836-1899, _Diary of Rachel Bowman Cormany, January, 1862_, in _Cormany Diaries: A Northern Family in the Civil War_....1982. Pg. 150: The girls (Susie and Lizzie) breakfasted with us. We had quite a jolly time eating rivel soup, baked pies for them. NOTE 17: Rivel, or rivvel, was a basic milk and flower soup. Ruth Hutchinson, _The New Pennsylvania Dutch Cook Book_ (New York, 1958), p. 1. From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 2 21:02:14 2002 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:02:14 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 4:09:01 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US writes: << I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. >> yes, if you put a coastal southern speaker next to an Appalachian speaker, most people will be able to report that they are different. But obviously the media stereotype of "southern" is quite different from the reality of West Virginia. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 23:26:48 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:26:48 -0400 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:10 PM -0700 10/2/02, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are >what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has >contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had >never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some >parts of the country? >Fritz > > I'm familiar with "davenport" from reading only, and had never heard or seen "daveno" before the currrent thread. In NYC we knew from sofas and couches, and love seats for the two-seaters. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 2 23:30:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:30:39 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <20021002191921.79230.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:19 PM -0700 10/2/02, Ed Keer wrote: > > >> Somehow this discussion of "make" vs. "take", >> combining with the >> thread on Philly, reminds me of that great billboard >> you see coming >> down on Amtrak from New York to Philadelphia just >> outside New >> Jersey's Capital City, reading >> >> TRENTON MAKES >> THE WORLD TAKES >> >> I've never been able to figure out if this is pride >> speaking, or a complaint. >> >> Larry > >I've always loved that sign, which by the way is also >in large neon letters on a bridge crossing the >Delaware from Trenton to PA. I've tried collecting >similar slogans with unintended (?) other readings. >Unfortunately, the only other one that comes to mind >is New Hampshire's LIVE FREE OR DIE which always >seemed like a threat to me. > >Any others? > >Ed > Well, for many years the Exit 6 sign on the westward Cross-Westchester Expressway (I-287) read: WHITE PLAINS NO WHITE PLAINS --until, as I've remarked in print, the powerful neo-Aristotelian lobby exerted its influence to get it changed. It now reads NO WHITE PLAINS/WHITE PLAINS, which is somehow less catchy. (NO here of course is intended to designate 'North'.) Larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 3 00:53:15 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:53:15 -0500 Subject: "23 skidoo" and related matters Message-ID: >At 12:43 PM -0400 10/2/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > >> I always associated "23" (= scram, go away) with the twenty-third >> psalm, recited so often at funerals; the number connected with >> departing from this world may have become generic for rapid departure. >> >> Cf. "take a powder" (scram, leave), originally referring to >> putting a poisonous powder in one's drink. Death-wishes have provided >> at least one expression for slang "scram," perhaps more. > >I won't get back into criticizing people for blue-sky etymological >conjectures at this point, but let me ask Jerry, what is your evidence for >"taking a powder" originally referring to putting a poisonous powder in >one's drink? I read about "take a powder" many years ago but no longer remember the source. (It was in connection with the once-frequent use in Italy of slipping a poisonous powder into the drink of someone to be eliminated). So I have no problem with anyone deciding to reject what I said unless or until the source can be located. But I would like to address Fred's non-criticism criticism of my speculating about etymology. Detectives do a lot of speculating at the start of a case; most of the leads prove false, but it is nonetheless valuable to check them out. Scientists do an enormous amount of speculating about what may or may not work to cure a disease; again, there are many false starts, and yet setting forth all the possibilities is valuable. One might actually provide the cure. I have been working in etymology for some 32 years and have made more incorrect guesses than I can count; I try to catch them all before they get into print but am not always successful. But I also say unabashedly that I am not afraid to make mistakes; they are an integral part of the learning process. As the late, great linguist Roman Jakobson (pronounced Yakobson) one said: "A bad theory leads to a better theory. The absence of a theory leads to nothing." Now, the question here is whether the ads-l site is an appropriate place to speculate. I certainly hope it is. If the members interested in etymology were in my living room, I would bat around various ideas with them. This is a conversation, an enjoyable dialogue, which at least sometimes bears fruit. But the members are not in my living room; they are out there somewhere, and so we bat around the ideas on ads-l. To say that an idea is not only wrong but should not even be expressed is to stifle the discussion. This is troubling. Some of my most scholarly material (e.g. the two monographs on the origin of "shyster") arose from initial stumbles. So while I fully respect and greatly welcome Fred's contributions which come from concentrating on initial attestations, I also see value in trying one's best to figure out the origin of a word or expression. Our approaches are certainly not mutually exclusive, since an incorrect proposed etymology can lead to the discovery of an original citation (this happened with my initially stumbling work on "shyster"; the first attestations were then discovered by NY Historical Society librarian Roger Mohovich). Barry Popik has also often unearthed very valuable material after he or I (or both) stumbled initially. And when the discoveries are made which conclusively solve part or all of an etymological problem, that is a cause for celebration all around. Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 01:38:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:38:54 EDT Subject: Pupusa (Salvadoran pancake, 1956) Message-ID: PUPUSA From this week's VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 80, col. 2: _best perfect pupusas_ The Salvadoran pupusa is the world's most overlooked pancake. Versatile and humble, they function as snacks, accompaniments, or entire meals. The best are found far out on the Rockaway Peninsula at _EL REFUGIO_, which sports a broader range than just the usual bean, cheese, and pork. One is stuffed with leathery zucchini, while the plain cheese is engagingly tweaked with loroco flowers. 114-11 Rockaway Beach Boulevard, Queens, 718-634-5097. From THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD (1999), pg. 151: Salvador is thickly strewn with _pupuserias_, selling _pupusas_, which are small thick tortillas variously filled (beans, sausage, cheese). There are about 1,000 hits on Google. Notice that the VILLAGE VOICE didn't just mention the "pupusa"--there was a category for the "best pupusa" in New York. It looks like we have another "momo" on our hands. Does it get mentioned in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD? Again, it's not my call. All I can say that the food is being eaten and written about it New York City. Does it get entered in the OED? Again, it's not my call, but I didn't make up the OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD. Here are some historical cites: FOUR KEYS TO EL SALVADOR by Lilly de Jongh Osborne New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company 1956 Pg. 70: At nightfall they sit beside portable stoves and cook _pupusas_ (large corn-paste cakes filled with delicious cream cheese), which must be eaten very hot, directly from the clay dish on which they have been roasted; or they prepared steaming hot coffee mixed with heaps of black sugar and served in clay cups, or they serve _atole_, a drink made from ground coffee. ON YOUR OWN IN EL SALVADOR by Jeff Brauer, Julian Smith and Veronica Wiles On Your Own Publications 1995 Pg. 85: _Pupusas_, the most distinctive Salvadoran food, are small, thick _tortillas_ filled with soft, white cheese. They're often fried, and are great hot off the skillet. A special version of _papusas_, made from rice, is sold in the town of Olocuilta (see Olocuilta). You'll probably want to put some _cortido de repollo_--pickled and chopeed cabbage and carrots, often in a jar on the table--on top of your _papusas_ to add some crunch and cool them down, followed by a sprinkle of chili sauce to heat them back up. You also have a choice of what goes inside: _chicharron_ (fried pork rinds); _queso_ (cheese); _frijoles_ (beans); or _revuelta_ (everything). Pg. 86: _Salvadoran Recipes_ _Papusas_ _Masa_ (a finely-ground corn meal available at many specialty food stores) Soft white cheese, such as mozzarella Tobasco sauce Mix the _masa_ with water and form thje resulting dough into two thin _tortillas_, each about five inches in diameter and 1 1/2 inch thick. Place the cheese in the center of one _tortilla_ and place the other on top, pressing the edges together to seal the filling inside. Place in a hot pan or onb a griddle with a dash of vegetable oil and cook evenly on both sides. Serve with tabasco sauce and _curtido de repollo_ (see below). Other fillings can be substituted for cheese, including cooked beans and meat. _Curtido de Repollo_ _(Chopped cabbage in vinegar)_ One cabbage Vinegar Carrot, onion Oregano, salt, chili pepper Slice the cabbage and vegetables into small strips, place in vinegar and add oregano, salt and chili pepper to taste. Allow the mixture to soak for approximately six hours before serving with _pupusas_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.T.: THE NIGELLA LAWSON DISASTER IN TODAY"S _NEW YORK TIMES_ Another opinion (which states it well), from the NY Times web site board: frnagle1b - 10:46am Oct 2, 2002 EST (#4067 of 4068) ok, i've had it already with nigella's column. it's even worse than the bridget-jones'-diary known as amanda hesser. at least amanda has pretty much admitted that she can't really cook -- readers only wait for her to also realize she can't really write. but nigella is so bad it's shocking. first column, she offers us a bit about tuscany -- as if it were new to us? -- we're not the british blue-hairs who hang about in sorrento at the foreigner's club -- that further insults us by not actually offering a tuscan menu. now she praises those british "nursery dishes" and actually offers us a recipe for toad-in-hole. as if we would want to eat it? even british people don't want to eat it. what will she breathlessly offer us next? bubble-and-squeak? why is the new york times presenting us with food that wouldn't even appear in woman's day? contrast both amanda hesser and nigella with recent pieces by judy rodgers. now there's a woman who can cook, write, and offer recipes of interest. hire judy; lose amanda and nigella. From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 3 03:01:00 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:01:00 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: How about the Indiana farmers on last week's West Wing. They sounded like Central Casting combed New England for bit players, and as Josh and Toby got closer to Cincinnati there was no trace of Upper South. None of them sound like any Indiana farmers I've ever known. Herb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Keer" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:55 AM Subject: Bad TV dialects > Ok, I have to vent. I watched a few minutes of _Hack_ > the other night. It's supposed to take place in > Philadelphia, but like last year's _Philly_ everyone > seems to sound like New Yorkers. Don't those Hollywood > people know what a Philly dialect sounds like? It > makes me miss _Homicide_ where at least the extras > actually sounded like Baltimorians. > > Feel free to commiserate if your city/region fails to > get proper treatemnt on TV! > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 3 03:44:10 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:44:10 -0500 Subject: Davano for davenport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think 'davenport' has lost popularity as well. Couch or sofa are >what I usually hear now. Maybe the length of 'davenport' has >contributed to its demise. I have also come across people who had >never heard the word 'davenport'. Is it totally unknown in some >parts of the country? >Fritz > My sense of the word is that it describes a piece of furniture popular before I was born (1959). I think the first time I heard/read with word was in _Peanuts_, and that my reaction was, what is that (in fact, I think Lucy says to Charlie Brown during a game of Cowboys and Indians, I shot him behind the davenport, and if that's not fatal I don't know what is"). It was NOT a word I heard growing up near Cleveland. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Oct 3 04:40:18 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:40:18 -0700 Subject: Take a powder Message-ID: Just to highlight this sub-thread, I wanted to mention that my early and enduring impression of the context for this expression was that it was mobster-slang from the 1920s (Al Capone, et al.). This suggests that its origins were far from referring delicately to ladies repairing to the restroom. The implication seemed to be to leave the scene precipitously (and surreptitiously) to avoid being captured or rubbed out, and unlikely to return soon. These are purely impressionistic interpretations, however. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 05:54:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 01:54:32 EDT Subject: Take a powder (Buchanan papers, ca. 1939) Message-ID: We don't need to guess! Peter Tamony has collected examples of "take a powder" and "powder." Gerald Cohen should request this (if he wants to). I'll jump in only if more work needs to be done. The Barry Buchanan papers from his unpublished ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ENTERTAINMENT WORLD show, in the THEATER card section: Take a brodie Take a call Take a cropper Take a curtain Take a cut Take a dip Take a flyer Take a licking Take a powder Slang for, to leave; to leave without notice; to sneak away from a place. Cf. powder. (I can't locate the section with "powder." I should probably put all these entertainment terms online, but I'm more tempted to burn everything in this apartment and somehow start some new life, in some new city--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 3 07:11:05 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 03:11:05 -0400 Subject: Cucoloris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:47 PM 9/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: > German has a very similar word, albeit with a different meaning: >KOKOLORES, KOKOLORUS, masc. (no plural): (a) rubbish, nonsense, >twaddle, (b) palaver, fuss; e.g. "mach doch nicht solchen Kokolores >don't make such a fuss. >(c) = German "Kram", in: den ganzen Kokolores/all den Kokolores >einpacken to pack in the whole caboodle/shebang. > > Might the U.S./British term denoting "screens made of perforated >plastic or wood that are placed in front of the luminaire" have >derived from the German word? Perhaps (and yes, yes, I know this is >speculating) a German referred to a pile of the screens as Kokolores, >intending the equivalent of "Kram" (stuff, junk, things), which was >then interpreted by a non-German speaker as a technical term for >these screens. > >Gerald Cohen > > >>At 10:07 AM +0100 9/30/02, Michael Quinion wrote: >>While looking into the film and stage lighting term 'gobo' for kinds >>of screen used to generate patterns of light and shadow on the set, I >>came across "cucoloris" (variously spelt) as a common term for some >>sorts - screens made of perforated plastic or wood that are placed in >>front of the luminaire. The word is in no dictionary that I've been >>able to trace, nor is there any indication of its origin. One >>possibility might be the classical Latin "cucullus" for a hood or >>cowl, which it is just possible some early photographer might have >>borrowed. Does anybody have any evidence at all for this word that >>might throw light (ahem) on where it comes from? Only speculation. The Kluge German etymological dictionary says "Kokolores" is a fake-Latin coinage, and compares it to "cockalorum" in English. Maybe "cucoloris" is a variant of "Kokolores" or a another parallel fanciful coinage. The cucoloris -- also "cucalorus" etc. -- is perhaps a disc, since it is called a "cookie": maybe the "cookie" came first, later elaborated to "cookaloris" by analogy to the German word. The spelling "cocoloris" can be found in a number of European Web items, where it covers "cucoloris" and more often the name of a band (thus likely reflecting "Kokolores" too). Hard to tell whether some instances are spelling errors, of course. Another possibility would be a trade-name origin: e.g., I can imagine a Spanish-language "Cucolores" < "cuco" [i.e., "cute"/"sly"] + "colores", but my feel for Spanish may leave something to be desired. "Cucullus" of course has modern reflexes in Spanish and in scientific Latin (e.g., "cucullaris" = "trapezius"), but I can't find any with endings like "-oris"/"-orus". -- Doug Wilson From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 08:38:02 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 04:38:02 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fritz J commented: >> I hardly think of Clark Gable representing a southern dialect, even in Gone with the Wind. (I thought he was from Ohio). I think most people can recognize at least the difference between Jimmy Carter and Elvis. << I highly doubt that a majority of Americans can tell the diff between Carter and Elvis. They might be able to tell that they are both "Southern". Maybe. This is an opinion, but it is why I say (as I did recently here) that it's linguists who are abnormal. OK, unusual. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 09:30:20 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:30:20 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Beth) Simon said: >> Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. << The non-voicing of the final vowel in these words fits a pattern I have noticed among New Haven, CT, folks of Italian heritage (yes, the same people who say "ah-BEETS" for apizza, and who actually put "apizza" on signs for pizza parlors). In the New Haven area, ricotta is "ri-GOT" and mozzarella is "MOOTS-a-rel". There may be others like this, but I can't recall just now. As a person of half-Italian (well, Sicilian) heritage, but from Michigan, these struck me as very odd when I first heard them. They are the regular prons around New Haven, though. Even non-Italians say them this way, as when asking for something at a deli or on a(n) (a)pizza. Larry H or Alice F, please back me up on this, or people might think I'm making this up. Frank Abate PS: Beth S, I apologize for the pun at the top, but I couldn't resist. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 09:55:54 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:55:54 -0400 Subject: Joseph Nathan Kane dies In-Reply-To: <1b8.6cfcfcd.2ac88457@aol.com> Message-ID: Many thanks to Barry P for his recent notice of the death of Joseph Nathan Kane. I did not know of all of Kane's achievements, though I have used his books for years. Similar to Kane, it seems to me, was Rev. E. Cobham Brewer, who gave the world Brewer's Dict of Phrase and Fable, not to mention 2 other ref works, on literary and historical matters (can't recall the titles of these, long out of print). Brewer collected "factoids" on little bits of paper, and put each into a particular box. He did this for years. Then he would dump all the stuff out of the box, sort through it, and thus have the basis for a ref book. I believe he did each of his books this way. Frank Abate From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Oct 3 11:44:56 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:44:56 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] Message-ID: Hi Leticia, Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. Thanks! Drew From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Thu Oct 3 11:49:54 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:49:54 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] Message-ID: whoops! my workstudy's last name starts with ars... which is close to ads.... which is what I must have typed & sent in my pre-coffee haze... my bad. Drew Danielson wrote: > > Hi Leticia, > > Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. > > Thanks! > Drew -- DREW DANIELSON . . http://pcdrew.ece.cmu.edu/ Admin for Krogh, Gabriel, Fedder & Rajkumar . Carnegie Mellon University ECE Department . 5000 Forbes Avenue . Pittsburgh, PA 15213 +1 412 268-2188 Voice . +1 412 268-3890 Fax ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy -- and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful. -- Robert A. Heinlein From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 12:00:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:00:07 EDT Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign NORTH EAST RISING SUN designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. - Jim Landau From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU Thu Oct 3 12:33:00 2002 From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:33:00 -0500 Subject: Job Ad Message-ID: ************** Department of English Mississippi State University Drawer E Mississippi State, MS 39762 Assistant Professor in linguistics/TESOL. Ph.D. in English or linguistics with emphasis in TESOL required. Teaching assignment will be 2/2 in the first year and 3/2 in subsequent years, on condition of appropriate productivity. Salary will be competitive. Affordable and comfortable faculty housing is usually available in the first two years of employment. Mississippi State University is a Carnegie Research I institution with approximately 16,000 students on the main campus. To apply, please send a letter and a c.v. to arrive by November 15, 2002. Review of applications will begin immediately and will continue until the position is filled. Mississippi State University is an AA/EO employer. ************** From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 3 13:17:50 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 06:17:50 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The usual difference in my usage seems to follow the pattern: "Take (or hang) a left (right, uie) here", but "Make a left (right, u-)turn here." --- sagehen wrote: > >I have both, and introspection fails about the > selectivity device > >selecting or preferring one or the other. (Good > thing; otherwise us > >quantitatively-oriented sociolinguists wouldn't > have squat to do). > > > >dInIs > ~~~~~~ > I also have both, but feel that selection is a > matter of register: depends > on whom I'm talking to. "Take" feels just slightly > more hip; "make," more > formal. If giving directions to a stranger, might > also say "make" to a > woman, "take," to a man. > A. Murie ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:44:46 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:44:46 -0400 Subject: parmeZHAN and de/not voicing final vowel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:30 AM -0400 10/3/02, Frank Abate wrote: >(Beth) Simon said: > >>> >Not that I admit to actually renting _The Sopranos_, but pretty clearly >they've been voicecoached to, among other things, not voice the final vowel >on words such as parmegiano and prosciutto. ><< > >The non-voicing of the final vowel in these words fits a pattern I have >noticed among New Haven, CT, folks of Italian heritage (yes, the same people >who say "ah-BEETS" for apizza, and who actually put "apizza" on signs for >pizza parlors). > >In the New Haven area, ricotta is "ri-GOT" and mozzarella is "MOOTS-a-rel". >There may be others like this, but I can't recall just now. > >As a person of half-Italian (well, Sicilian) heritage, but from Michigan, >these struck me as very odd when I first heard them. They are the regular >prons around New Haven, though. Even non-Italians say them this way, as >when asking for something at a deli or on a(n) (a)pizza. > >Larry H or Alice F, please back me up on this, or people might think I'm >making this up. > I already did so yesterday, Frank. What I was saying then (or maybe it was Tuesday) was that I hear the missing vowel all the time, but wondered about the /dzh/ to /zh/ in "parmigiano". I had other examples of the vowel drop, including "capaGOL". I usually hear "moots-uh-REL", with final stress, though. In fact, "fresh mozzarella", with the final vowel pronounced, seems weird; has to be "moots-uh-REL". Very tasty, esp. with some nice pruh-SHOOT. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:48:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Handouts for lecture] In-Reply-To: <3D9C2EE2.E9F6327E@cmu.edu> Message-ID: At 7:49 AM -0400 10/3/02, Drew Danielson wrote: >whoops! my workstudy's last name starts with ars... which is close to >ads.... which is what I must have typed & sent in my pre-coffee haze... > >my bad. > What a relief. I was definitely not looking forward to all that busy work. Larry > >Drew Danielson wrote: >> >> Hi Leticia, >> >> Please make 100 copies, 2x sided & stapled. >> >> Thanks! > > Drew > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 13:49:49 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:49:49 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:00 AM -0400 10/3/02, James A. Landau wrote: >On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the >Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > >designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau Yup, still there, just a little after you enter Maryland going south on I-95. Larry From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 14:39:25 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:39:25 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: A sign which sadly no longer exists---at the State Police "barracks" on the Delaware approaches to the Delaware Memorial Bridges, there used to be a big sign that read: INFORMATION POLICE I know many people who could not pass that sign without imagining Orwellian interpretations. - James A. Landau From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 3 14:41:47 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:41:47 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: <55.2e2ca24b.2acc8314@aol.com> Message-ID: --- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 10/2/02 10:55:48 AM, > edkeer at YAHOO.COM writes: > .... Of course, most Americans think there is > only one Southern > (WHITE) dialect and it sounds like Clark Gable in > GONE WITH THE WIND. So > filmmakers who do this are interested in > verisimilitude, not accuracy.\ If I understand correctly, what the non-south hears and approximates as a "southern" accent or dialect didn't appear until late in the nineteenth century, so Civil War movies and postbellum westerns depicting Reb's using modern heavy "southern" accents are inaccurate. Is this at least approximately true? How early did "real" various regional accents and dialects become distinguishable - or at least how early are they documented? And how much have the modern versions changed or evolved from the originals? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 3 14:43:18 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:43:18 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: - Jim Landau writes: >On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the >Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN ~~~~~~~ Perpetual summer? AM From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 15:26:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:26:30 EDT Subject: Cheb (Senegal fish & rice dish); Pizza; Fuzhou Sauce;Gastropub;Convenience Food Message-ID: Another days goes by, and the likelihood that, for example, Kathleen Miller and William Safire will correct "cakewalk" (a simple thing, really), or that the Associated Press will correct its story that "parking fines haven't increased since 1975," appears to be nil. These are incorrect facts. I don't have to EARN respect here. I don't have to suffer. I don't have to sue. These are errors that must be automatically corrected. But it's not automatic. It's all a game of "we're the Associated Press and the New York Times, and you're nobody." I canot tolerate when both my employer and my ADS colleagues lie and treat me with no respect. It's not even fun when the "Yankees" lost yesterday. This must lead me, if not now then soon, to another profession. This will not correct the situation for someone else, or add checks and balances where none now exist. But I can't, for example, beg the New York Times for another ten years to print a simple story about "the Big Apple." It's already been a disgrace to my departed family. David Shulman approached me yesterday. Someone is selling a very valuable collection of cryptography, and Shulman wants me to buy it to add to the collection he's already donated to the NYPL. Maybe I should tell him again that I've earned all of $1,000 in 25 years, and that I'll need what money I have to seek a new life, and perhaps in a new home. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------CHEB From the VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 81, col. 2: _best choice cheb_ Cheb, the national dish of Senegal, is now available in four boroughs in a range of renditions. Current best is that found at _DABAKHMALIK_, picturesquely located right across the street from the Slave #1 Theatre on Bed-Stuy's main drag--a mountain of red rice incorporating hunks of stuffed bluefish, cabbage, cassava, and carrot, the flavor darkened with wisps of stockfish. 1194 Fulton Street, Brooklyn, 718-789-2888. This looks like a no-brainer. It's the national dish of Senegal. It's in at least four boroughs of New York City. Enter it right away! If only it were that easy. There are five Senegalese restaurant's in TIME OUT NEW YORK'S EATING & DRINKING 2003. "Maffe" is here.(the Senegal peanut butter sauce/stew, not in the revised OED?). From pg. 21, col. 3: ..._Thiebou diene_, which the menu trumpets as Senegal's national dish, is a mix of tomatoey bluefish, tender vegetables and rice. (...) The draw here isn't atrmosphere--it's the _thiebou diene_, or _ceebu jen_. Rstaurants may spell the name differently, but they all refer to this rice, fish and vegetable dish with pride, branding it the "Senegalese daily meal." It's never "cheb"! The spellings are wildly different! OED should pick the most frequent as it's main entry, but enter 'em all. I'm working on it. I was copying my "pupusa" stuff yesterday and my Senegal books were all taken away when I returned to my library table. I'll never find them again! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PIZZA From the VILLAGE VOICE, October 2-8, 2002, pg. 81: New York's first pizza parlor (founded 1905)--where American pizza was invented--remains the best in town. Especially when it comes to the sainted clam pie. At _LOMBARDI'S_, freshly shucked littlenecks are deposited on the crust at the last minute and barely cooked, leaving them supremely juicy and briny. Type A. 32 Spring Street, 941-7994. (I have cited "pizza" in the NEW YORK TIMES ffrom 1903, but since it says here that American pizza was invented in 1905, I'll just ignore my findings--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FUZHOU From the same VILLAGE VOICE, pp. 80-81: _best fabulous fuzhou_ The wave of Fujianese immigrants has crested in the last couple of years, creating new parts of Chinatown on the Lower East Side, now teeming with bargain cafes that charge $3 for a selection of three dishes served over a mountain of rice. In addition to a diverting steam table, _118 LUCKY_ offers a menu of standards like sweet dumpling soup and duck in Fuzhou sauce, in addition to nearly any type of fresh seafood perfectly steamed with shards of ginger. 118 Eldridge Street, 965-1560. (The only new "Fuzhou" word here appears to be "Fuzhou sauce," but it didn't come up on Google--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GASTROPUB The October 2002 issue of the American Express magazine DEPARTURES (named because that's what happens to your money with your American Express card) is a BRITAIN SPECIAL ISSUE. I read it because there's food in each issue; the NY TIMES writer R. W. Apple does a food essay here. Mimi Sheraton was in a month or so ago. (Also, I read SEPARTURES because they send it to me.) From pg. 114: Five or so years ago young chefs eager to go it alone invented the gastropub--London's version of the Paris bistro--as an inepensive venue where they could serve a clientele happier without a restaurant's formality. Perhaps not for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, but perhaps worth a mention. "London Pubs Sip the Tonic of Youth" was in the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 December 1997, pg. F1: "Thie weekend is the best time to catch the crowd at London's new gastro-pubs." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CONVENIENCE FOOD John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK has "convenience store," but not "convenience food." OED has December 1961. 10 November 1954, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 50: Among these he mentioned the sale of non-food items in grocery stores and the introduction of frozen foods and other so-called convenience food products and beer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GENERATION GAP Not a food term, but an antedate. OED has May 1967. 2 March 1964, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 24: She has done what no other entertainer has managed since the Beatles and the rock 'n' roll groups came on the scene. She has bridged the generation gap. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KA-TA For those who like this spelling. From THE PEOPLE OF TIBET (1928, 1968, at Oxford of course), by Sir Charles Bell, pg. 220: Firstly, the silk scarf of ceremony (_ka-ta)_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------SAMBO. What will the next DARE have for "Sambo"? I was looking for "okra." Another early hit for this is on EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE. THe book is A TRUE & EXACT HISTORY OF THE ISLAND OF BARBADOES (1657) by Richard Ligon, pg. 54: The substance of this, in such language as they had, they delivered, and poor _Sambo_ was the Orator... (OED cites from this book 283 times, yet misses "Sambo" and the numerous mentions of "brandy"--ed.) From alex at SPAMCOP.NET Thu Oct 3 16:16:11 2002 From: alex at SPAMCOP.NET (Alex Bischoff) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:16:11 -0500 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was > actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Not exactly ;). "Where was the Dukes of Hazzard filmed? Answer: The first five episodes were filmed in Covington, Georgia, and then the show was moved to Los Angeles and shot in surrounding areas, both on set and on location." (http://www.wopat.com/didyou.html) -- Alex Bischoff, KB3BZG 3812078 on ICQ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will code for food. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- XHTML/HTML/CSS Developer for Hire -> http://www.handcoding.com/portfolio/ From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 3 17:27:10 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:27:10 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: For the related question of the supposed setting of the show: >>The location of Hazzard is equally vague, and kept that way purposely; the intent of The Dukes of Hazzard, after all, was not to represent some real place, but to provide Southern-flavored entertainment. Clues in the show, if carefully collected over the seasons, lead devout viewers to believe that the county backs up against the Georgia Appalachians, and the speech patterns are the twangier accents of the mountain regions. The language, though, is largely based on stereotypes of Southern dialects instead of the speech itself.<< Guthrie, The Hazards of Southern Speech: Language in The Dukes of Hazzard (1996), available at http://www.bubblesbrnaid.com/bmn/papers/hazzard.html. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Alex Bischoff [mailto:alex at SPAMCOP.NET] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Bad TV dialects > The Dukes of Hazard strikes me funny. That hillbilly accent, but the show was > actually filmed in Hazard, Georgia. Not exactly ;). "Where was the Dukes of Hazzard filmed? Answer: The first five episodes were filmed in Covington, Georgia, and then the show was moved to Los Angeles and shot in surrounding areas, both on set and on location." (http://www.wopat.com/didyou.html) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 18:40:54 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:40:54 EDT Subject: 23 Skidoo Message-ID: On 10/2/02 at 9:16:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time I quoted the following from http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/811.html: The late etymologist Eric Partridge reported that one of his correspondents felt that the phrase might have had its roots in old telegraphers' code, where common phrases were replaced by numbers. In this code, "30" sent in Morse code meant "end of transmission" (a notation still used by journalists to signal the end of a story), "73" meant "best regards" (still very much in use by amateur radio operators), and "23" meant "away with you!" This seems a far more likely explanation of the phrase. I have since found a copy of the Phillips code on-line at URL http://www.qsl.net/ae0q/phillip3.htm This Web page gives the following list of numbers and the phrases they represented: WIRE- Preference 25- Busy on anr wire over everything 26- Put on gnd wire except 95 27- Priority, very 1- Wait a moment important 2- Important business 28- Do you get my 3- What time is it? writing? 4- Where shall I go 29- Private, deliver in ahead? sealed envelope. 5- Have you business 30- No more -end for me? 31- Form 31 train 6- I am ready order 7- Are you ready? 32- I understand that 8- Close your key; I am to ......... ckt is busy 33- Car report (Also, 9- Close your key for answer is paid for) priority business 34- Msg for all officers (wire chief, dspr, 35- You may use my etc.) signal to ans this 10- Keep this ckt 37- Diversion closed (Also, inform all 12- Do you under- interested) stand? 39- Important, with 13- I understand priority on thru 14- What is the wire. (Also, sleep- weather? car report) 15- For you and 44- Answer promptly and other to copy by wire 17- Lightning here 73- Best regards 18- What is the 88- Love and kisses trouble? 91- Supt's signal 19- Form 19 train 92- Deliver promptly order 93- Vice pres. & gen. 21- Stop for meal mgr's signals 22- Wire test 95- President's signal 23- All copy 134- Who is at the 24- Repeat this back key? While it is possible that some telegraphers used a different meaning for "23", this particular Phillips Code dictionary says that "23" means "all copy", an instruction with no obvious connection to "skidoo". - Jim Landau From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 3 18:43:56 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:43:56 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <12f.189a2838.2acd8b47@aol.com> Message-ID: On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: Boring Oregon City As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 3, 2002 8:00 AM -0400 "James A. Landau" wrote: > On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the > Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > > designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Oct 3 19:09:27 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:09:27 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. Message-ID: Peter, you remember that nearly every exit off I-5 used to point the driver toward "Ocean Beaches." I don't know whether this is true, but alledgedly some out-of-staters thought that Ocean Beaches was a town. Of course, it's not--it's the beaches that are on the ocean. Well, I have not seen Ocean Beaches in a while. I think all the signs now read "Oregon Coast." Fritz (who goes to the 'beach,' not the 'coast') >>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 10/03/02 11:43AM >>> On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: Boring Oregon City As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 3, 2002 8:00 AM -0400 "James A. Landau" wrote: > On the JFK Parkway in Maryland north of Baltimore (just north of the > Susquehanna River if I remember correctly) there is a sign > > NORTH EAST > RISING SUN > > designating an exit for the towns of North East and Rising Sun. > > > - Jim Landau **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 3 19:21:03 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:21:03 -0400 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <387595.1033645436@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0700 10/3/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote: >On US Hwy. 26 heading west into Portland from Mt. Hood and points east, >there is a sign for an exit that takes you to Oregon City and the town of >Boring. You guessed it--the sign reads: > >Boring >Oregon City > >As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as >The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" > >Peter Mc. > Somehow that just reminded me of the exit sign on Route 6 on lower Cape Cod in Massachusetts: Mashpee Sandwich yum! Larry From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 3 21:49:51 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:49:51 -0700 Subject: Make/take a left/right, etc. In-Reply-To: <387595.1033645436@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: >Boring >Oregon City > >As a resident of the latter locality, I'm always inclined to comment, as >The New Yorker might once have done, "Just give the directions, please!" Not quite the same thing, but in Oakland, CA there was a building (not sure if it's still there) with the sign: Iamba Building. Every time I passed it I couldn't resist saying, "Yes, you are." Rima From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 3 22:17:26 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:17:26 -0700 Subject: "a" Message-ID: This question comes not about a-prefixing, but the insertion of "a" in superlatives. That is, "too good a time" for nonstandard *"a too good time," or "too difficult a task" for *"a too difficult task." (The nonstandard forms remind me of Effi Briest's father's famous "ein zu weites Feld," but I digress.) Yesterday on Morning Edition there was a report from NPR's Congressional correspondent, David Wellna (sp?), in which I think I heard "too broad a powers"--"a" used with the plural and thus obviously a fossil with the purpose of circumlocuting the more cumbersome "powers that are/were too broad." What's this called, if anything? Peter R. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 3 23:35:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:35:29 -0400 Subject: Tibetan Glossary (1901) Message-ID: WITH TIBETANS IN TENT AND TEMPLE: NARRATIVE OF FOUR YEARS' RESIDENCE ON THE TIBETAN BORDER, AND OF A JOURNEY INTO THE FAR INTERIOR by Susie Carson Rijnhart Chicago: Fleming H. Revell Company 1901 "Momo" is not here, but "Pien shi" is! Pg. 398: _GLOSSARY._ Achi...Sister. Ahon...A teacher among moslems. Apa...Father. Argols...Excreta of animals. Aro...Brother. Bei-si or pei-si...Mongol chief. Chang...Alocholis liquor made by Tibetans. Chang lam...Long road. Chen tai...Military official. Chong-kuei teh...Head of a house, shopkeeper. Choma...Edible root. Chorten...Monument. Churma...Dried curds or buttermilk. Calai Lama...Grand lama. Dimo dimo ing...Tibetan salutation. Dzassak...Mongol chief. Fa tai...Abbot. Fen-ing-tang...C.I.M. Chapel. Fu tai...CIvil official. Fu yeh...Living Buddha. Geiu...Yellow sect of lamas. Gimbi...COntroller of Official escort. Gomba...Monastery. Heh-ho-shang...Black priests. Ho pen...Mohammedan. Pg. 399: lang-ta-ren...Foreign great man. Ie mah...Wild mule. Ja-ja...Sleeveless jacket. Ja-lam...Road traveled by tea caravans. K'a che...Mohammedan. Kali...Slowly. K'ang...The hollow heated platform in use as a bed and divan. Kanpo...Abbot. Kao yeh...Secretary. Karwa...Palace. Khata...Scarf of ceremony. Khopa or kopa...Tibetan from the interior. Kiang...Discuss. Kotow...Strike the forehead to the ground in worship or honor. Kuan men...Official gate. Kushok...Gentleman. Ku tsi...Trousers. Lama...Buddhist priest. La rong...Official residence of the abbot. Li...One-third of an ENglish mile. Long ta...Wind horse made of paper. Mamba...Doctor. Mamba fu yeh...Medical buddha. Mang tuan...Satin given by the Emperor to the Mongol princes. Mani...Prayer, rosary. M'ien...Vermicelli. Obo...Pile of stones on a hill or pass. Oruss...Russian. Panaka...Nomadic Tibetan of N. E. Tibet. Pao ren...A man who acts as security. Peh Sing...Subjects, common people. Peh tsi...Coolie who carries loads on his back. Peling...English. Pei-lu...Nothern road. Pg. 400: Piao...Agreement. Pien shi...Small, boiled, meat dumplings. (Not "momo"?--ed.) Ponbo...Official. Ponbo ch'enpo...Great official. Puh tsi...Shop. Pulu...Woolen cloth made by Tibetans. Sho...Junket. Sung Kuan...Disciplinarian. Ta ko...Older brother. Tangui...Tibetan of lake district. Tao tai...Official of third rank. Tiao lo...Tower of defence. Ting...Civil official in small town. Tong Kuan...Eastern suburb. Tsamba...Parched barley meal. Tsao ti...Grass country. Tseh...Thief. Tung shih...Interpreter. Ula...Relays of animals supplied by Government order. Wang yeh...Prince of chief. Wu chai khata...Scarfs of ceremony in parcels of five. Yamen...Home and office of an official. Yseu Ma'shika...Jesus Christ. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 00:45:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:45:55 -0400 Subject: Chinese Pizza (Chizza); Zuni Bread; In the Soup; Come and Get It! Message-ID: CHINESE PIZZA (CHIZZA) I walked past Hunan Fifth Avenue (opposite the Empire State Building). It proudly states that it's Jerry Seinfeld's favorite Chinese restaurant. (Too bad the show used Tom's Restaurant for all those scenes.) On the menu are "scallion pancakes (Chinese pizzas)." A Dow Jones database check showed a large 238 hits for "Chinese pizza," but only about four hits with "scallion pancake" added. About five articles, starting with 1-1-1989, mentioned "Chizza," but that's all for that neologism. There doesn't seem to be an established form to this item yet. The earliest I could find is the NEW YORK TIMES, 3 October 1976, pg. 17, Chinam restaurant in Southold: "We can also recommend the savory spring onion pancake, billed as 'Chinese pizza.'" --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD A local deli-type place around here in New York City is serving "Zuni bread." It's not in the OED. DARE? The American Memory database has a photo of this from 1926, but the notes should not necessarily mean that we had "Zuni bread" in 1926. Someone from the Zuni tribe is shown baking bread. The earliest Dow Jones database hit is in the ARIZONA DAILY STAR, 19 November 1990 (Dow Jones coverage of this periodical starts just about here), pg. 1FM: "Besides the chili peanuts other Southwestern touches could include: Zuni bread and grean bean-jicama salad." --------------------------------------------------------------- IN THE SOUP OED has April 1889 for "in the soup." 1 September 1888, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: McLaughlin won with King Crab in the easiest possible fashion, and Speedwell finished "in the soup." 28 October 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: A Yale student returning from abroad is disgusted with the slow appreciation of the English people. He says that on the trip home he had occasion to make use of the phrase "in the soup." As it was new to British ears, it provoked the curiousity of one old gentleman, who begged an explanation. The embarrassed young man began with a cheerful and homely example. "If," said he, "I started for America, and my trunk by some inadvertence was detained in Liverpool, I should be sadly inconvenienced, would I not? Well, then, my trunk would be in the soup, and so would I." "But," broke out the Englishman, "I cannot see what your trunk has to do with an article of diet."--_New-Haven Palladium_. 3 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: Slang interprets slang. It is easy to see the force of the remark "Don't be a clam," when you reflect how frequently the clam is in the soup.--_Toronto Globe_. --------------------------------------------------------------- COME AND GET IT! I haven't yet looked on other databases. 26 December 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 1: These early ones had to wait in the wind for three hours before they heard the cry of "Come and get it," and by the time serving began additional thousands were in the hungry queue. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 05:08:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 01:08:12 EDT Subject: Navajo Fry Bread; Zuni Bread Message-ID: NAVAJO FRY BREAD The OED revision is getting close, so I checked to see if it had "Navajo fry bread." Nope, not in there. OED doesn't even have a "fry bread" at all! Both DARE and John Mariani's ENCYLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK have this under "fried bread" or "fry bread." I'll probably beat DARE's 1950 date on Saturday. With this bread, you can make a "Navajo taco" or "Indian taco." Here are the Google numbers: Navajo fry bread--654 hits Navajo fried bread--53 Navaho fry bread--24 Indian fry bread--2,540 Indian fried bread--199 Fry bread--9,730 Frybread--2,378 Fried bread--8,350 Navajo taco--601 Indian taco--1,050 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD Not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. Not in OED. DARE? The important work here is by Frank Hamilton Cushing. See his "Zuni Breadstuff," MILLSTONE 9 (1884), nos. 1-12, and 10 (1885), nos. 1-4. Edition in book form with introduction by John Wesley Powell, Indian Notes and Monographs, vol. 8, Museum of American the Indian, Heye Foundation, 1930. Reprinted 1974. It's long and a little difficult to summarize here. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 4 15:24:49 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:24:49 -0500 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" Message-ID: At 8:45 PM, 10/3/02 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >IN THE SOUP > > OED has April 1889 for "in the soup." > > 1 September 1888, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: > McLaughlin won with King Crab in the easiest possible fashion, >and Speedwell finished "in the soup." > > 28 October 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > > A Yale student returning from abroad is disgusted with the slow >appreciation of the English people. He says that on the trip home >he had occasion to make use of the phrase "in the soup." As it was >new to British ears, it provoked the curiousity of one old >gentleman, who begged an explanation. The embarrassed young man >began with a cheerful and homely example. "If," said he, "I started >for America, and my trunk by some inadvertence was detained in >Liverpool, I should be sadly inconvenienced, would I not? Well, >then, my trunk would be in the soup, and so would I." "But," broke >out the Englishman, "I cannot see what your trunk has to do with an >article of diet."--_New-Haven Palladium_. > > 3 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: > Slang interprets slang. It is easy to see the force of the >remark "Don't be a clam," when you reflect how frequently the clam >is in the soup.--_Toronto Globe_. A few questions arise: 1) What is the origin of slang "in the soup"? Is it connected with the cartoons showing a captured white man sitting in a pot of boiling water with the savage natives standing around? (I'm assuming these cartoons existed already in the 19th century). OED2 doesn't give the etymology. Jesse, does HDAS perhaps have something on this? Would there be perhaps a still earlier attestation? 2) The earliest examples of "in the soup" are now clustered in 1888-1889. Did something happen in 1888 or shortly before to bring "in the soup" to public attention or into print? 3) Do any other languages have a similar slang expression? 4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say "Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a hopeless situation? Gerald Cohen P.S. For easy access, here is OED2's treatment of "in the soup" ("soup," nn. meaning 2b): in the soup, in a difficulty. orig. U.S. 1889 Lisbon (Dakota) Star 26 Apr. 4/2 After collecting a good deal of money, the scoundrels suddenly left town, leaving many persons in the soup. 1898 Pall Mall Mag. Nov. 420 Of course he knows we're in the soupbeastly ill luck. 1915 J. BUCHAN Thirty-Nine Steps ii. 37, I was in the soup that was pretty clear. 1917 LLOYD GEORGE Let. 31 July (1973) 184 Henderson has now put us into the soup & there is no knowing what will happen. 1925 [see EYEBROW 1d]. 1939 H. G. WELLS Holy Terror I. ii. 38 We're in the soup... We've got to do 1914 over again. 1968 Listener 23 May 660/3 You find you may want to move a group of pictures..to a different part of the building, and if the rooms over there are designed for quite a different kind of picture, you're rather in the soup. 1977 C. MCCULLOUGH Thorn Birds xvii. 455, I do feel very sorry for her, and it makes me more determined than ever not to land in the same soup she did. From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 4 15:40:36 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:40:36 -0400 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. What about Penny Marshall trying to pass as a Milwaukee resident? From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 4 15:42:04 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:42:04 -0400 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: #4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which #denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the #soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say #"Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of #these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a #hopeless situation? FWIW, "goose" comes closer to alliteration and assonance with "cooked" than either other fowl. Just an observation/speculation. -- Mark A. Mandel From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Fri Oct 4 16:01:31 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:01:31 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: > Mary Tyler Moore trying to pass as a Minnesotan. >What about Penny Marshall trying to pass as a Milwaukee resident? And Henry Winkler (altho his orign was always somewhat mysterious) From self at TOWSE.COM Fri Oct 4 16:14:40 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Questions about "in the soup" Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > #4) Have any articles been written analyzing slang expressions which > #denote being in a difficult or hopeless situation, e.g., "in the > #soup," "in a pickle," "your goose is cooked"? Btw, why do we say > #"Your goose is cooked"? Why not a duck or a chicken? And if one of > #these birds *is* cooked, how does this cause anyone to be in a > #hopeless situation? > > FWIW, "goose" comes closer to alliteration and assonance with "cooked" > than either other fowl. Just an observation/speculation. Nothing to do with golden eggs? Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 17:37:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:37:38 EDT Subject: Bad TV dialects Message-ID: In a message dated 10/2/02 11:06:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > How about the Indiana farmers on last week's West Wing. They sounded like > Central Casting combed New England for bit players, and as Josh and Toby got > closer to Cincinnati there was no trace of Upper South. None of them sound > like any Indiana farmers I've ever known. Of course not. As one of the rural girls said, "We're not rednecks". Which leads to a question. I was under the impression that the term "redneck" was used ONLY to apply to a bucolic Southerner. A bucolic Hoosier would be called a "hick" or a "yokel". Correct? According to an article in our local paper, that West Wing episode was filmed somewhere other than in Indiana. Unfortunately I was not prescient enough to save the article, so I can't tell you were it was filmed (but considering that a few previous shows took place on Bartlett's farm in New Hampshire, it could easily have been somewhere in New England and Herbert Stahlke has a good ear). Usually bit roles are played by locals, and the lack of Hoosier accents in the show merely demonstrates the lack of Hoosier accents in the locals who showed up for the casting call. Still you would expect West Wing to have a dialect coach. Or perhaps they don't feel the need for a dialect coach. People who hold top jobs in the White House come from all over the country, so the producers probably tailored each character's regional background to whatever regional accent the actor playing the role has. Having done that, they probably figured they had done their duty about dialects and turned their attention to other matters. Come to think of it, few of the West Wing characters have specified regional origins. President Bartlett made his political career in New Hampshire, where he owns a farm, but he went to high school and probably elementary school in Washington DC, where his father was the principal of the school. C. J. Cregg is the daughter of a schoolteacher somewhere in the Midwest (I forget where) but before joining the Bartlett campaign she was a flack in Hollywood. Donna is from North Dakota (or maybe neighboring Canada), but her dialog is so off-the-wall that nobody notices her dialect. I don't recall any of the others having their birthplaces identified. - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Oct 4 18:07:40 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:07:40 -0700 Subject: Bad TV dialects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > Which leads to a question. I was under the impression that the term > "redneck" was used ONLY to apply to a bucolic Southerner. A bucolic Hoosier > would be called a "hick" or a "yokel". Correct? It's my impression that now, here in the PNW "redneck" can be applied to anyone from any part of the country. I think you are correct that it was originally applied to Southerners but now it seems to have taken on something of a political aspect, whereas "hick, yokel, hayseed" etc. haven't. It also seems to have a certain pride associated with it as in the immortal lyric, "There's no place I'd rather be than right here, with my red neck, white sox and Blue Ribbon beer". I can't recall hearing anyone ever refer to themselves as a "yokel" with even a trace of pride. allen maberry at u.washington.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 4 19:50:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:50:11 EDT Subject: Purported Safire commentary Message-ID: The following is from URL http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/smoot/long.html I have no idea whether any of the following is relevant to Mr. Safire, but since we love discussing him on this list, here goes: William Safire's Rules for Writers Remember to never split an infinitive. The passive voice should never be used. Do not put statements in the negative form. Verbs have to agree with their subjects. Proofread carefully to see if you words out. If you reread your work, you can find on rereading a great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing. A writer must not shift your point of view. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. (Remember, too, a preposition is a terrible word to end a sentence with.) Don't overuse exclamation marks!! Place pronouns as close as possible, especially in long sentences, as of 10 or more words, to their antecedents. Writing carefully, dangling participles must be avoided. If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is. Take the bull by the hand and avoid mixing metaphors. Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky. Everyone should be careful to use a singular pronoun with singular nouns in their writing. Always pick on the correct idiom. The adverb always follows the verb. Last but not least, avoid cliches like the plague; seek viable alternatives. - James A. Landau From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 4 20:06:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:06:51 -0400 Subject: Purported Safire commentary In-Reply-To: <83.21c17262.2acf4af3@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 04, 2002 at 03:50:11PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > The following is from URL http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/smoot/long.html > > I have no idea whether any of the following is relevant to Mr. Safire, but > since we love discussing him on this list, here goes: > > > William Safire's Rules for Writers [deleted] That sounds like it could be from Safire's _Fumblerules,_ but I don't have a copy handy to check. Still, lists like that are found all over. Jesse Sheidlower From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Oct 4 20:33:49 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:33:49 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end in -aire). Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most others switch to -ary? Thanks for any help. Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 4 22:03:13 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo, vol. 2 Message-ID: For those who may be interested--- I've just privately published a limited edition of the following book: _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball And Other Lingo_, volume 2: G-P. Primarily from the baseball columns of the San Francisco Bulletin, Feb. - May 1913. 237 pp.; soft cover. cost: $25 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. Volume 1, published in 2001, is 208 pp.; soft cover; cost: $20 + $5.00 (five) for shipping and handling. For the first printing I've run off 110 copies--10 for my personal use and 100 for sale. I suppose the material will be of interest to lexicographers and word researchers. I intentionally kept the number of copies low and do not expect the demand to warrant a second printing. In any case, I would like to complete volume 3 (2003) before considering a second printing. The book lists the terms I find of interest in the 1913 S.F. Bulletin baseball articles and then presents the examples in context. This work started as a careful search for the earliest attestations of "jazz" (used in a baseball context before a music one) and then broadened out as a whole variety of interesting baseball terms and expressions came to my attention. Upon request, I could present 1 1/2 pages from the preface that explain the project in more detail. For now I would say that I have aimed to produce a scholarly treatment (with the examples of attestations and their exact references). Checks should be made payable to the University of Missouri-Rolla and mailed to me: Gerald Cohen, G-4 Humanities Social Sciences Building, University of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. The project is non-profit; all funds remaining after publication costs are met will be donated to a scholarship fund at the University of Missouri-Rolla. ---Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages research specialty: etymology From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Fri Oct 4 22:25:39 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:25:39 +0100 Subject: Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo, vol. 2 Message-ID: Please reserve one of the G-P vols. for me. I shall find the pertinent $25.00 and post it soonest. That said, will this cover international postrage? If not, please advise of realistic cost. Best wishes Jonathon From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Sat Oct 5 16:36:26 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:36:26 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021004162107.00a33b30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: There's also "extraordinaire", and if you really want to push it, "ordinaire" in the term "vin ordinaire"; I got these by searching on *aire in the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictioanry CD-ROM. It also gives "nondoctrinaire" and "undoctrinaire." The question of why these borrowings from French retained their French endings and others did not is one I'll leave to the specialists. Wendalyn Nichols At 04:33 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >in -aire). > >Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most >others switch to -ary? > >Thanks for any help. > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 17:07:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:07:41 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column Message-ID: TUXEDO TUXEDO is the name of a new movie with Jackie Chan and Jennifer Love Hewitt. The FINANCIAL TIMES has a story on the "tux" this week. OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1889. 24 May 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: Messrs. JAMES McCREERY & CO. exhibit to-day and during this week another invoice of TUXEDO SUMMER SUITS. These Knitted Costumes are far SUperior to any Flan- nel Texture and are exceed- ing in demand any suit they have ever sold; in fact, no lady's summer wardrobe is complete without at least one of these beautiful cos- tumes; also the LITTLE TUXEDO SUIT for children, sizes from 4 to 14 years. The above goods are for sale only by JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadyway and 11th St. 7 June 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: The Little Tuxedo Suit. THe most beautiful novelty of the season for CHildren's wear is our "LITTLE TUXEDO KNITTED SUIT" on exhibition in our window this week. (...) JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadway and 11th St. 13 July 1887, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: TRADE TUXEDO MARK. For the months of July, August, September, and October our KNITTED TUXEDO SUITS have no rival. These suits are ready-made and rarely require any alteration; from their knitted texture they are especially adapted for the Seashore, the Mountains, Yachting, Lawn Tennis, Steamer wear, etc., etc. THE TUXEDO KNITTED SUIT and The Little Tuxedo Knitted Suit For Children's Wear ARE FOR SALE ONLY BY JAMES McCREERY & CO., Broadway and 11th St. 22 November 1889, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: The new "Tuxedo" suit, with soft roll coat, low cut vest and Knickerbockers, for ages 10 to 16 years. (...) _Rogers, Peet & Co._ 5 December 1891, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: WAITERS TO WEAR TUXEDO COATS. (...) A resolution was adopted recommending that waiters hereafter use what is known as the "Tuzedo," which is made of white duck, sack shape, and with long rolling collar. It is proposed to make the matter a national one, with the idea of having the coat adopted in all parts of the country. --------------------------------------------------------------- 88 IN SAFIRE'S COLUMN Here we go again. William Safire's "On Language" column in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES talks about "stop on a dime" and other "dime" stuff. We've discussed this here before. This language is only a mere 75 years old. Safire opens up the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAL SLANG for the only meaningful citation in the column--and can't even spell "Von Vechten" (it's "Von Vechter" here). The ADS-L discussion we had on "88=H.H.=Heil Hitler" is discussed next, and our great Larry Horn is mentioned. The correction of "cakewalk"? Well, it ain't here. Since Kathleen Miller recently posted here, I'll scream this once again: I'M A HUMAN BEING! I'M A HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!!! HUMAN! H-U-M-A-N!!!!!!!!! HOW MANY YEARS MUST I GO THROUGH THIS? ONE YEAR? TWO YEARS? FIVE YEARS? TEN YEARS? MORE? HOW MANY MORE TIMES MUST THINGS LIKE THIS MUST HAPPEN? TELL THE TRUTH! TREAT ME WITH RESPECT! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT KIND OF AN ORGANIZATION IS THIS THAT ALLOWS THIS TO HAPPEN TO ME FOR OVER TEN YEARS? Okay, that's enough shouting. Anyway, congrats to Larry Horn! --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: PARKING FINES As I've said, the AP ran a story that quoted a NYC Department of Finance spokesman as saying that most parking fines hadn't been increased since 1975. I wrote to the AP and told them that I am an administrative law judge, and I know that this is wrong. The AP wrote back yesterday that the spokesman "stands by" what he said, but that the AP is asking him for proof. At least the AP--unlike the NEW YORK TIMES--gets back to you and checks on these things. Hosannah! A similar story also ran October 1st in NEWSDAY. There, the same spokesman said that parking fines hadn't been increased "since 1978." (Also wrong.) Perhaps he stand by both statements? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 18:25:37 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:25:37 EDT Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the Year. Background: my son Joel, a sophomore at Rutgers, last week joined the campus newspaper, The Daily Targum (despite its name it is published in English). As most junior person on the staff, he automatically got the bottom-of-the-totem-pole beat, namely local political scene. His first article was on the new chairman of the city Housing Board. Two working days later Torricelli quits the Senate race and the local political scene is now the hottest beat on the paper. Joel has not written anything all week that has not made page 1. Seat in Senate can shift balance By: Joel Landau 10/02/02 -------------------------- The current power structure of the U.S. Senate is not hard to describe. The Democrats, with the majority, have 50 seats, while the Republicans occupy 49. The real challenge is to decipher what the Senate will look like after the November elections. That's what Jennifer Duffy, managing editor of "The Cook Political Report," attempted to do last Monday night at the Eagleton Institute on Douglas College. The event, entitled "U.S. Senate Elections: What's Happening Across," was designed to shed light on the political landscape and senatorial elections happening all over the country. Duffy's speech, which was mostly concentrated on the national viewpoint of the senate election, ended up with an interesting twist. New Jersey senatorial incumbent Robert Torricelli, D-N.J., dropped out of the race only a half hour before her lecture was scheduled to begin. "Here's the speech ? anyone got a match?" joked Duffy as she began her presentation. -------------------------- Story Source: The Daily Targum -James A. Landau (proud papa) From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Oct 5 18:47:01 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:47:01 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >Year. WHICH word are you nominating? ? Bethany From self at TOWSE.COM Sat Oct 5 19:14:54 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:14:54 -0700 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy Message-ID: I was reading a restaurant review in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." "Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. I checked with the ADS-L archives to see how much action "jiggy" has had and the answer is, not much. Here's the one and only: "http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007A&L=ads-l&P=R2460" I then trundled off to the new Google News feed and popped in "jiggy". From the assorted news sources Google is covering, there are fourteen uses in the last thirty days (the time window for Google News' archives). Uses range from the San Francisco Chronicle (in the sports section) to the Guardian, the Miami Herald, Entertainment Weekly (not unexpected), Rolling Stone (ditto), E Online (double ditto) and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. BizReport.com had an entire article devoted to CNN Headline News' decision to be more hip, titled "CNN News Gettin' Jiggy With da Jive Talkin'" Anyone know the origin of "jiggy"? Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Oct 5 20:17:01 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jas. Landau writes: >As most junior person on the staff, he automatically got the bottom-of-the-totem-pole beat......< That position at the bottom of the totem pole is the most easily examined by the close observer...and in this case, was clearly not a bad place to be! A. Murie From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Oct 5 20:19:59 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: from the archives: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:15:43 -0400 From: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Halls of ivy, Ivy League In-Reply-To: Let me also remind us that we had a detailed discussion not that long ago (July 1998, to be exact) of the obviously related "Ivy League", which I've also seen falsely etymologized--sometimes by my own undergraduates--as deriving from "IV League" (again from the numeral, rather than the feeding tube)... from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is IV. it lives still. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 5 20:25:32 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:25:32 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column In-Reply-To: <13D9023A.221BEBD3.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > William Safire's "On Language" column in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES > talks about "stop on a dime" and other "dime" stuff. We've discussed > this here before. This language is only a mere 75 years old. Safire > opens up the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAL SLANG for > the only meaningful citation in the column--and can't even spell "Von > Vechten" (it's "Von Vechter" here). Actually, Barry, Safire wrote "Van Vechter" and the correct spelling is "Van Vechten." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 20:28:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:28:05 -0400 Subject: Slow as Molasses (1854); Dolly Varden Pie (1872) Message-ID: Sorry for all the typing mistakes lately, but as usual, I'm feeling pretty down. Also, I'm pressed for time on these library computers. JIGGY--I don't often do rap terms because they're covered in the online Rap Dictionary, www.rapdict.com or something like that. --------------------------------------------------------------- SLOW AS MOLASSES Not in DARE, not in the RHHDAS, not in OED, not in Christine Ammer's FRUITCAKES & COUCH POTATOES (1995). Face it--I'm making this one up. July 1854, NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW (MOA--Cornell database), pg. 150: "Yes," was the drawling reply, "but he is--as--slow--as--cold molasses." 9 December 1854, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: "Yes; but he is as slow as _cold molasses_." 9 April 1870, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 238: You're slow as molasses in the winter time. 27 April 1889, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 330: Everybody knew he was slower than molasses in January, like those Pennsylvania Dutch. --------------------------------------------------------------- DOLLY VARDEN PIE 21 September 1872, HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 735: Apropos to the season, an exchange gives a recipe for a "Dolly Varden" pie: "Take about four yards of light dough, gather it up in tucks and flounces, crimp the edges, and fill up with fruit; then lay on the over-skirt, fasten it with buttons of dough connected with frills... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 20:30:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:30:21 -0400 Subject: Tuxedo (1887); "88" in Safire's column Message-ID: I thought I said that! I dunno anymore. --Barry "It's 4:30! Time's up!" Popik From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 21:27:04 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:27:04 EDT Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/05/2002 2:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU writes: > >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the > >Year. > > WHICH word are you nominating? Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 5 21:33:21 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:33:21 EDT Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture Message-ID: In the movie "Monsoon Wedding", which takes place in India (I think it is New Delhi) there is a brief scene in which a woman who is holding a popsicle gets annoyed by something someone else says, so she responds by holding her popsicle vertically and jerking it in an upwards direction. In this context the gesture can easily be interpreted as "up your ass!". Does anyone know whether this is a common gesture, in India or anywhere else, and if so what is it usually interpreted as? Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever having encountered before: "sisterfucker". - James A. Landau From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sat Oct 5 21:47:15 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:47:15 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: >> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >> >Year. >> >> WHICH word are you nominating? > >Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) Thanks, Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 5 23:43:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:43:31 -0400 Subject: IV: it lives still In-Reply-To: <200210052019.g95KJxA01720@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: Oh my goodness. On it creeps. Of course I now (after my 5th round of chemo) have a very different association with the "IV league"... larry At 1:19 PM -0700 10/5/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >from the archives: > > Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:15:43 -0400 > From: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Halls of ivy, Ivy League > > Let me also remind us that we had a detailed discussion not that long ago > (July 1998, to be exact) of the obviously related "Ivy League", which I've > also seen falsely etymologized--sometimes by my own undergraduates--as > deriving from "IV League" (again from the numeral, rather than the feeding > tube)... > >from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column >(provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, >"Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: > > In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, > and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper > has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. > But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name > "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally > only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is IV. > >it lives still. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From self at TOWSE.COM Sun Oct 6 00:03:57 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:03:57 -0700 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > JIGGY--I don't often do rap terms because they're covered in the online Rap > Dictionary, www.rapdict.com or something like that. I link to it from my site in the wordstuff subsection. RapDict.org, though, defines "jiggy" as n) To have a lot of money or riches. "DKNY, oh my I'm jiggy" -- Junior M.A.F.I.A. (Player's Anthem [1995]). which isn't the way Tom Hanks has used it "Yeah, you know. Jiggy. The way you feel when you're on your ninth coffee of the day. Jiggy. That's what I am." ... nor the way the San Francisco Chronicle restaurant reviewer used it, nor the way Will Smith used in "Getting Jiggy With It." Looking further, "jiggy as in get jiggy, be active" is on the ADS-L Jan 2002 list of words of the year 2001 least likely to succeed. Not in the archives but on the words of the year list. Did I miss it in the archives? Is this a fifth possible definition? "jiggy" means something else again Down Under, according to the Macquarie book of slang . Perhaps a word searching for a meaning. Sal -- 1900+ useful links for writers From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sun Oct 6 01:19:45 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:19:45 -0400 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Arnold Zwicky > from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column > (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee reich, > "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: > > In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, > and is applied to any number of vining plants. Virginia creeper > has also been called "ivy" - "American ivy," by the British. > But it's neither ivy nor Virginia creeper that led to the name > "Ivy League." That name came about because there were originally > only four Ivy League colleges, and "four" in Roman numerals is > IV. Aside from his mistaken derivation of Ivy League, Lee Reich is also wrong, or at best foggy, about ivy. Ivy is ivy, genus Hedera, and people involved with plants at anything beyond the most superficial level know that. The fields of botany and horticulture can provide an interesting paradigm for linguists. There are in essence two separate parallel languages, and those of us involved in the field slip from one into another almost without distinction, unless we are very careful. Reich is almost right when he says that the word "ivy" lacks botanical meaning. In fact, the word does not exist in the botanical language, which is so prescriptive that there is actually a Congress that sets the usage rules. There is Hedera and Parthemocissus and Senecio and Cymbalaria and Rhus and more. On the other hand, say "ivy" to any botanist or horticulturist and he knows exactly what you mean -- Hedera. Not Boston ivy or Swedish ivy or German ivy or Virginia creeper. That is, unless the word is spoken by someone fairly ignorant about plants, in which case it is necessary to ask a series of questions to find out what the person is talking about. If you can. There are many similar examples. Geranium to a botanist is a very different plant from the geranium sold at KMart. A serious gardener knows that lilies are lilies, Lilium, and not daylilies or calla lilies or ... well, you get the point. Mr. Reich is confused. And he is not helping his readers understand the differences in botanical and common nomenclature. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 01:26:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:26:36 EDT Subject: "Fruit Cake" notes (1846--) Message-ID: Christine Ammer's FRUITCAKES & COACH POTATOES, AND OTHER DELICIOUS EXPRESSIONS (1995) notes that the OED has "fruit cake" from only 1854. Merriam-Webster has 1848. Andrew F. Smith, who the NEW YORK TIMES reported is working on the upcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FOOD AND DRINK (sic), queried rec.food.historic about "fruit cake" in December 2000. Supposedly, it's in THE POCUMTUC HOUSEWIFE (1805) and Eliza Acton's MODERN COOKERY FOR PRIVATE FAMILIES (1845), among other places before 1854. I haven't checked NEW YORK TIMES full text yet, but I've been checking other databases for "fruit cake" and "fruitcake," also with the word "tin" added. LITERATURE ONLINE DATABASE (Prose) Hall, Baynard Rush, 1798-1863 Something for Every Body: Gleaned in the Old Purchase, from Fields Often Reaped. By Robert Carlton (pseud.) (1846) ...sizes and colors, and eating fruit cake and ices, sipping lemonade,... Lippard, George, 1822-1854 Paul Ardenheim, the Monk of Wissahikon (1848) ...slice cut off from the fruit-cake of aristocracy! MAKING OF AMERICA (CORNELL) April 1846, THE AMERICAN WHIG REVIEW, pg. 380: ...sponge cake and fruit cake. MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-JOURNALS) December 1849, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 739: ...she had a fruit cake to give them on their birth-day. December 1890, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 642: It was a piece of neglect next to a sin in her eyes if there was not at all times a month-old loaf of fruit cake put away in the tin cake-box in the cool sstore-room "in case of company." MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-BOOKS) MRS. GOODFELLOW'S COOKERY AS IT SHOULD BE (1865): FRUIT CAKE. (...) These cakes will keep a year, if attention is paid to their being put in a tin case, and covered tightly in an airy place. They improve by keeping. AMERICAN MEMORY (LIBRARY OF CONGRESS) (Letter) W. G. Catrell to Abraham Lincoln, June 23, 1864 (Send fruit cake). (Photo) November 1939 Removing fruit cakes from tin in which they were baked at bakery in San Angelo, Texas. EARLY CANADIANA ONLINE Traill, Catherine Parr THE FEMALE EMIGRANT'S GUIDE, AND HINTS ON CANADIAN HOUSEKEEPING (Toronto: Maclear, 1854) SWEET FRUIT-CAKE. (...) This is sold in the confectioners under the name of mince-pie and pie-cake. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:26:54 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:26:54 -0400 Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture In-Reply-To: <8a.1f8154a2.2ad0b4a1@aol.com> Message-ID: In Louisville in the 1940s and early 50s we never jabbed our popsicles into the air, although we both said up your ass and had at least the left hand on inner side of elbow with right lower arm up-lifted which clearly had that meaning. I'm sure we would have adopted the popsicle insult if only someone had introduced it. We were precursors of iconicity. dInIs >In the movie "Monsoon Wedding", which takes place in India (I think it is New >Delhi) there is a brief scene in which a woman who is holding a popsicle gets >annoyed by something someone else says, so she responds by holding her >popsicle vertically and jerking it in an upwards direction. > >In this context the gesture can easily be interpreted as "up your ass!". > >Does anyone know whether this is a common gesture, in India or anywhere else, >and if so what is it usually interpreted as? > >Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever having >encountered before: "sisterfucker". > > - James A. Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:29:31 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:29:31 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Well, many WOTYs have been POTYs (e,g, the first WOTY "Bush lips" >[written "Bushlips" but not pronounced that way] and soccer mom"). >No need to enhance what has already been established. ADS plays fast >and loose with the concept "word." (But all linguistics does so far >as I can tell.) dInIs >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >>> >Year. >>> >>> WHICH word are you nominating? >> >>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" > >O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > >Thanks, >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Oct 6 01:48:16 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:48:16 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a word for a linguistic item?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>Well, many WOTYs have been POTYs (e,g, the first WOTY "Bush lips" >>[written "Bushlips" but not pronounced that way] and soccer mom"). >>No need to enhance what has already been established. ADS plays fast >>and loose with the concept "word." (But all linguistics does so far >>as I can tell.) Yeah - you really cannot say "linguistic item of the year," ("LIOTY") and get anyone but a linguist to listen, I suppose. Bethany From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 6 02:35:29 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:35:29 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021004162107.00a33b30@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: >The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >in -aire). > >Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most >others switch to -ary? I think "doctrinaire" is the odd one (along with derivatives such as "nondoctrinaire" etc., of course). The excuse for "debonair[e]" is perhaps the same as that for "laissez-faire"/"laisser-faire": these adjectives are from phrases ending in noun "air[e]" and verb "faire" respectively, not from the usual suffix "-aire" = "-ary". If this excuse does not suffice, perhaps the lack of a Latin cognate "debonarius" or so might have played a role; but I believe that when "debonair[e]" was adopted the etymology from "de bon[ne] air[e]" probably was obvious (and in this case -- coincidentally -- apparently also true). In English, "extraordinaire" (like the marginal cases "[vin] ordinaire", "[cordon] sanitaire") is not a fully naturalized word: it follows its noun and generally continues to put on French aires: using this word is tantamount to pretending to speak French. So why is "doctrinaire" odd among adjectives? My naive guess is that it's because the word was first adopted as a noun, and late. There are several such nouns, mostly adopted ca. 1800 or later: "concessionaire", "commissionaire", "legionnaire", "secretaire", "millionaire", etc. Earlier nouns with this French suffix "-aire" (Latin "-arius" I guess) were naturalized to English "-ary" generally; I suppose after ca. 1800 it was no longer fashionable to alter them so. I suppose "doctrinaire" is the only one of these adopted nouns which became conventional as an English adjective. Adjectives in "-aire" which are adopted as adjectives have always generally become "-ary", I think. Maybe some of the experts can add something, or correct me. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 02:50:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:50:36 -0400 Subject: Killer Shrimp (1988); Zuni Bread (1972?) Message-ID: KILLER SHRIMP I was walking by J.D.'s on East 52nd Street when I looked at the menu and saw today's special: KILLER SHRIMP. Just what we need. There are snipers on the loose, and now I've got to worry about killer shrimp. Google has 778 "killer shrimp" hits. (Maybe I shouldn't say "hits.") The Dow Jones database has 115 "killer shrimp" hits. The first is "You hear the one about the attack of the killer shrimp?"--Tall Fish Tales, in the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 3-22-1987. The thing we're looking for, though, is on the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office database. "Killer Shrimp" has a first use of 27 April 1988, at Marina Del Rey, CA. This is from the LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS, 28 February 1993, pg. L7 (Dow Jones database): Killer due: Marina del Rey's popular Killer Shrimp is coming to the San Fernando Valley. (...) Boiled shrimp are offered with bread, pasta or rice and the so-called "killer" sauce. --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUNI BREAD (continued) John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK lists "zwieback," so "Zuni bread" probably won't be last in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD. Here's a recipe, anyway. I hope DARE is interested. PUEBLO INDIAN COOKBOOK: RECIPES FROM THE PUEBLOS OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST Compiled and Edited by Phyllis Hughes Sante Fe, NM: Museum of New Mexico Copyright 1972, 1977 Second Edition, Revised 1977 Third Printing, Revised Edition 1981 Fourth Printing, Revised Edition 1982 Pg. 10: _Zuni Bread_ 1 1/2 cups whole wheat flour 1 cup shelled, ground sunflower seeds 1 tablespoon baking powder 1 teaspoon salt 2 eggs 4 tablespoons shortening 4 tablespoons honey 1 cup milk 1/2 cup whole sunflower seeds Mix together dry ingredients. Beat eggs, shortening and honey thoroughly and add to flour mixture with milk. Stir until smooth. Fold in whole seeds. Grease bread pan and flour bottom, and spoon in batter. Bake at 350 degrees for one hour. Cool on rack for 10 minutes in pan. Remove, but do not slice until cold. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 07:25:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:25:57 EDT Subject: RLT; ATC; Spinoccoli; Garbage Burrito; Popeye Eggs; Vietnam Hashing Message-ID: Yet another food round-up. I thought that I'd covered some of these terms before, but I guess not. RLT--Rashers (bacon), Lettuce, Tomato. I spotted it at O'Neill's, an Irish pub here in the city. A Google check shows that it's becoming standard Irish pub fare. I don't have the Dow Jones database handy now to date the term. ATC--Avocado, Turkey, Cheese. About 49 Google hits, but I spotted ATC as "avocado, tomato, cheddar." SPINOCCOLI--Pizza Uno trademarked this term (for its spinach and broccoli pizza) with first use of 12-3-1985 and first use in commerce of 12-11-1985, but a Google check shows 121 hits, mostly NOT Pizza Uno. GARBAGE BURRITO--La Cocina restaurant here says "Garbage Burrito--Everything we have around." There are about 15 Google hits. The "Garbage Burrito" is like the New Orleans "Debris Sandwich," only different. POPEYE EGGS--Also about 15 Google hits. Served at Dock's on 42nd and 3rd, Popeye Eggs are "Scrambled Eggs with Black Forest Ham and Sauteed Spinach." VIETNAM HASHING--Attached below is a message of Vietnam's "Hash House Lingo" that I found interesting. Why does Lighter's HDAS have "babyshit" (mustard) but not "afterbirth" (ketchup)? From: Ted Gittinger (TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com) Subject: Re: Damn Yanky Up View this article only Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam Date: 2001-06-28 15:27:01 PST "Bill Clarke" wrote in message news:tjlvfklcq3m4f4 at corp.supernews.com...> Ted Gittinger < TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com> wrote in message> news:PSs_6.102221$tb6.25622057 at typhoon.austin.rr.com...> >> > "Bill Clarke" < clarke at livingston.net> wrote in message> > news:tjjoo4bhkk2986 at corp.supernews.com...> > > Ted Gittinger < TGITTINGER at austin.rr.com> wrote in message> > > news:rnb_6.100506$tb6.24731022 at typhoon.austin.rr.com...> > > >> > > > WEre you marching to Sbisa or Duncan?> > > >> > > > ted> > >> > > Sbisa, where every meal was a banquet the fish year. Duncan the > > other 3 years.> > >> > > Damn that was a long time ago but I can still remember some of> > > those ass chewings.> > >> > > Bill Clarke> >> > Shoot the bullneck, please.> >> > ted>> > >> > >>> Would you like some afterbirth or baby-shit to go with that T-Bone?>> Wonder what they call it now in the politically correct age?>> Bill Clarke> F Troop, 17th CavI have plumb forgot most of the A&M chow hall language. But carrots ="sunshine," spinach = "Popeye," eggs = "cackle,"potatoes = "spuds" (whatelse?), salt and pepper = "sand and." "Afterbirth" was ketchup and "babyshit" was mustard.Oh, yes, "cush" was dessert, and no "fish" got cush without earning it. Oneway to earn it was to tell a funny story that so revolted the other seven atthe table that you were given dessert as sort of a merit badge.I heard stories at chow that still curdle my blood to think about.Sweete William, b/c me if all this puzzles you about my checkered career.Warm regards,tedwho is re-heating Chinese for dinner tonight.>>>Message 26 in thread From: Bill Clarke (clarke at livingston.net) Subject: Re: Damn Yanky Up View this article only Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam Date: 2001-06-29 07:24:57 PST And the little pickled peppers were Tiger Dicks. "fish Clarke, looks likeyou need a few Tiger Dicks".And then your fish buddies would ask for permission to have a Tiger Dickalso so you wouldn't be alone. We bonded like the men of F Troop and Ifound my best life long friends there.If you tell me of your checkered past will you then have to kill me. Bill ClarkeF Troop, 17th Cav From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 6 07:53:03 2002 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 00:53:03 -0700 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy In-Reply-To: <3D9F3A2E.2BDD523B@towse.com> Message-ID: It's not surprising that terms such as "jiggy" show up in mainstream newspapers. I found 69 such items in over 120 articles in the Daily Press, the newspaper of the Virginia Peninsula. My findings are published in American Speech, Winter 1999, Vol. _74,4,_ 369-388. --- Towse wrote: > I was reading a restaurant review > > in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and > not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is > something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of > starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." > > "Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd > had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. > > I checked with the ADS-L archives to see how much action "jiggy" > has had and the answer is, not much. Here's the one and only: > "http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007A&L=ads-l&P=R2460" > > I then trundled off to the new Google News feed and popped in > "jiggy". From the assorted news sources Google is covering, there > are fourteen uses in the last thirty days (the time window for > Google News' archives). > > Uses range from the San Francisco Chronicle (in the sports > section) to the Guardian, the Miami Herald, Entertainment Weekly > (not unexpected), Rolling Stone (ditto), E Online (double ditto) > and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. > > BizReport.com had an entire article devoted to CNN Headline News' > decision to be more hip, titled "CNN News Gettin' Jiggy With da > Jive Talkin'" > > Anyone know the origin of "jiggy"? > > Sal > -- > 1900+ useful links for writers > ===== Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Associate Professor - English and Linguistics & University Editor Department of English Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668 (757)727-5769(voice);(757)727-5084(fax);(757)851-5773(home) e-mail: margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu or mlee303 at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 6 13:45:35 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:45:35 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" Message-ID: Didn't we have "Word (or Phrase) of the Year" in 1997 and other years? Thomas Paikeday lexicographer (www.paikeday.net) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bethany K. Dumas" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: "Anyone got a match?" > On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > >> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the > >> >Year. > >> > >> WHICH word are you nominating? > > > >Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" > > O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > > Thanks, > Bethany From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Oct 6 13:54:16 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:54:16 +0100 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Further definition of '(get) jiggy': (to become) sexually excited; to have intercourse. The Macquarie def. of 'jiggy' is only as a noun, meaning 'sexual intercourse', though this is seen as rooted in the pidgin 'jig-a-jig', which, surely, is coincidental rather than etymologically linked to the contemporary 'jiggy'. Jonathon Green From kpvincent at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 6 14:13:50 2002 From: kpvincent at HOTMAIL.COM (Kelly Vincent) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:13:50 +0000 Subject: Monsoon Wedding gesture Message-ID: >Also, at one point the subtitle writers use a word I don't recall ever >having >encountered before: "sisterfucker". This is just a translation of a very common insult in in Hindi/Urdu. I believe it's used a bit more than "motherfucker", though those are the two favorites. Kelly _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 6 15:24:51 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:24:51 -0500 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: I'm preparing an article on slang "ax(e)" (= musical instrument), with full gratitude and credit to all the ads-l contributors to this topic of two years ago; I'll also contact each one individually. But I have one main point of uncertainty: whether to connect this "ax(e)" with slang "chops" (jazz term denoting musical ability or skill). This "chops" seems readily derivable from jazz "chops" (= "a trumpet player's strength of embouchure"--HDAS), which in turn derives from "chops" (= mouth or lips). So perhaps "ax(e)" (= musical instrument) derived from the differing meanings of "chops": 1) mouth; skill in playing e.g., a trumpet, 2) strikes with an axe. The very knowledgeable members of this list often see things that I miss. The above semantic hypothesis (axe as something one chops with) seems plausible to me, but am I perhaps missing something here? The inclusion of the "chops" discussion is just an addendum to the "ax(e)" treatment and could easily be removed if it presents problems. For ready access I present HDAS information after my signoff. Gerald Cohen HDAS says of ax(e) meaning #4: "sense development unknown; perh. sugg. by _sax_; perhaps infl. by _swing_. Jazz: a musical instrument, esp. one on which jazz or rock music is played, as a saxophone, trumpet, or guitar." The first attestation cited is from 1955. Meanwhile, HDAS says of _chops_: meaning #1a: "Now esp. Black English: the mouth or lips;..." -- first attestation cited: 1589. #2a: "Jazz. a trumpet player's strength of embouchure" -- first attestation cited: 1947. #2b. "Orig. Jazz: musical ability or skill; (hence) skill or ability of any sort." -- first attestation cited: 1968. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 6 17:52:18 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:52:18 -0400 Subject: feeling/getting jiggy In-Reply-To: <3D9F3A2E.2BDD523B@towse.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Towse wrote: #I was reading a restaurant review # #in the San Francisco Chronicle (a "special" to the newspaper and #not staff written) when I came across "With entrees, there is #something the rookie should know: Peruvians are unafraid of #starch. They double up, even triple up if they're feeling jiggy." # #"Feeling jiggy" in a newspaper? I had the same reaction as I'd #had the first time I saw "dis" in a mainstream publication. And what does it mean? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 6 17:54:37 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:54:37 -0400 Subject: "Anyone got a match?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: #On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: # #>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the #>> >Year. #>> #>> WHICH word are you nominating? #> #>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" # #O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) So did I. It's never a good idea to put content in the subject line (only). -- Mark A. Mandel From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 6 19:34:22 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:34:22 -0500 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: Jonathon Green (editor, _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_) privately sent me a message in reply to my query about axe/chops, and with his permission I now share it with ads-l. JEL in his message is Jonathan Lighter, editor of (the invaluable) Historical Dictionary of American Slang. Gerald Cohen >As regards chops = skill, I'm surprised that JEL missed the pre-1968 cites >from available in Robert S. Gold: _Jazz Lexicon_ (1964) > >1947 Metronome Jan. 32: He might not have the chops he used to have, but his >ideas are always fine >1958 Down Beat 24 Jul. 14: While it lasted it helped musicians who weren't >working because they could keep up their chops >1962 Down Beat 27 Sep. 41: He's got a lotta chops, but he played way too >long > >Gold (p. 8) also etymologizes _ax/axe_ on the basis of cites from PADS Nov. >1958 p. 43, in which the 'fancied resemblance in shape' of the saxophone is >equated with that of an axe, and from Esquire 1959 p. 70H) in which the axe >is seen as generic for 'any tool of work.' > >But as to the ax/chops link, he has nothing, frustratingly, to offer. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 19:47:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:47:05 -0400 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Derby Pie; Cream Pie/Cake Message-ID: CHEW THE SCENERY A NEW YORK TIMES story I spotted on the web (took forever to download, so I don't know the date) is "Anthony Hopkins Won't Chew the Scenery." (Hannibal the Cannibal can't be considered with "American food," oh please, dear no!) The best discussion of "chew the scenery" is on the web site Mavens' Word of the Day, by those Random House people, whever they are. Dorothy Parker's 1930 quip is mentioned. J. Brooks Atkinson, the TIMES drama critic, was a part of Dorothy Parker's circle. However, full text of the NEW YORK TIMES doesn't show any early quote! FWIW, the earliest in the database looks like 26 June 1947, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19: And while Miss Fontaine gives a worthwhile performance, there are times when she literally chews the scenery. --------------------------------------------------------------- DERBY PIE There's no secret to this Louisville dish. It's trademarked. DARE doesn't include it. Perhaps it needs more workers from Louisville? A check of the online NEW YORK TIMES doesn't show hits before the 1980s. The trademark records are interesting. It's trademarked by Walter S. Kern and Leandra C. Kern of Kern's Kitchen in Louisville, Kentucky. However, the first use is 1954-12-31 and the first use in commerce is 1964-07-31. The Kerns sat on the "Derby pie" recipe for ten years before they sold it? --------------------------------------------------------------- CREAM PIE/CAKE John Mariani uses an 1855 date for Boston "cream pie," which is really a "cream cake." OED, as usual, is in the dark. A check of the databases turns up some interesting stuff. 8 November 1852, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2: And now comes the dessert--not of Charlotte Russe or Tapioca Pudding; but of cream pies, which you have probably not seen upon city tables; and fritters, which last you are with maple molasses; followed by that most delicious Fall pippins and cracked butternuts. December 1832, THE NEW-ENGLAND MAGAZINE (MOA database), pg. 490: ...cream-cake... MISS BEECHER'S DOMESTIC RECEIPT-BOOK (1850; MOA-Books). Eight hits for "cream cake." December 1857, HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE (MOA database), pg. 68: ...no cream-cakes like Boston cream-cakes... --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T. BEATING A DEAD HORSE (continued): SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES'S "NEW YORK" ISSUE If that Sunday New York Times Magazine special "New York" issue doesn't make me feel sad, today's City section sure turns the trick. James Saunders (who collaborated with Ric Burns on the New York documentary, which they're continuing still) interviews celebrities like Molly Ringwald about what New York means to her. And I thought the Nigella Lawson columns were bad. If I see a New York Times profile of Posh Spice, asking her about her feelings about New York, and if she replies that firemen are her real heroes, I'm outta here. Just asking, but I don't I live here? Can't anyone know what I've done? From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Oct 6 20:06:26 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:06:26 +0100 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Derby Pie; Cream Pie/Cake In-Reply-To: <69F5A410.4AFB17F1.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: > CHEW THE SCENERY > > A NEW YORK TIMES story I spotted on the web (took forever to > download, so I don't know the date) is "Anthony Hopkins Won't Chew > the Scenery." (Hannibal the Cannibal can't be considered with > "American food," oh please, dear no!) The best discussion of "chew > the scenery" is on the web site Mavens' Word of the Day, by those > Random House people, whever they are. Dorothy Parker's 1930 quip > is mentioned. J. Brooks Atkinson, the TIMES drama critic, was a > part of Dorothy Parker's circle. However, full text of the NEW > YORK TIMES doesn't show any early quote! FWIW, the earliest in the > database looks like 26 June 1947, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19: Having just answered a subscriber's question about this phrase (see ), I can temporarily claim some small expertise. Professor Lighter cites an example from 1895 in RHHDAS, which proves that the expression is from the theatre, not films. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 6 20:46:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0400 Subject: Chew the Scenery; Dutch Oven (1737) Message-ID: CHEW THE SCENERY (continued) The Mavens' Word of the Day answer (given in 2000, when the site existed) mentions Lighter and the RHHDAS scenery chewing of the 1890s. I did not mean to imply that Michael's Quinion's more recent answer was not the best, also! Clearly, he can chew with Sir Anthony Hopkins and the best of them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH OVEN Another item that I thought I'd covered, but maybe not. OED has 1769 for "Dutch oven." It's not in DARE. I found many citations just now on the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE database. The earliest is 5 May 1737, in this list: ...Sauce-pans, Dutch Ovens and Stew Pans... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 00:30:37 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:30:37 -0400 Subject: "Pretzel" in America Message-ID: This may all be explained in the next volume of DARE, but probably not. The standard "pretzel" story is that Julius Sturgis baked his first pretzel in Lititz, PA, in 1850, after receiving the recipe from a hobo. He established the first commercial pretzel factory there in 1861. See www.sturgispretzel.com. OED has "pretzel" from 1856; Merriam-Webster has 1838. MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL 18 September 1858, pg. 959. This is a story of Baron Frederick Von Oertel, who sold "Bretzels" in St. Louis and was well known as "Bretzel Fritz." In part: "His pride was thoroughly broken down, and for a livelihood the Baron actually took to selling 'bretzels,' a kind of pastry in much favor with the Germans. He continued at this paltry but honest business for sixteen or eighteen years, and gained the appellation of 'Bretzel Fritz.'" This 1858 story dates before the Sturgis Pretzel Factory of 1861. But "Bretzel Fritz" was selling them in St. Louis for SIXTEEN OR EIGHTEEN YEARS? This story, from a St. Louis newspaper, had no reason to lie at this early a date. Is Sturgis sunk? MAKING OF AMERICA (MICHIGAN-BOOKS) Crippin, William G. (1820-1863) GREEN PEAS, PICKED FROM THE PATCH OF INVISIBLE GREEN, ESQ. (c. 1856) Pg. 232: ..."der krout and der pretzel." 1 September 1857, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 1: Without taking into account the babies in arms, or the little children who could bite _bretzel_ and sip lage bier, there were twenty thousand people... PRETZELS AND MUSTARD 3 January 1895, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 6 (From Dayton, Ohio): Each day 100 loaves of bread and one barrel of pretzels, with mustard, are given away as a free lunch, while sandwiches containing 10 cents worth of cheese are disposed of for half that amount. SOFT PRETZELS 30 January 1959, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 52: SOFT wholesale pretzel busn, for sale, terrific buy, gd location EV 1-4531. SOFT PRETZEL STANDS IN NEW YORK CITY 28 December 1960, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 30: _Pretzels Ride New Wave_ _Of Popularity in Subway_ (...) The stands are operated by the Metropolitan Soft Pretzel Corporation, two of whose executives--Sam Schwartz and Herbert Koppleman--first thought of selling pretzels from stands in front of a major chain store in Westbury, L.I., in 1956. Until then, the items were hawked by street peddlers from baskets with tall poles. Sales were limited even when candy stores sold them, too. (...) Mr. Knobler suggests toasting the pretzels and then topping them with smooth cheese or mustard. The latter is a favorite combination in Philadelphia, where the pretzel first achieved popularity in this country. PRETZEL SLANG 25 June 1961, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM52: The pretzel has even crept into our slang: French horns are sometimes called "pretzels" by their players, and a "pretzel bender" can mean a musician who plays one, a wrestler, or a man who drinks too much. From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 7 02:22:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:22:10 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 02:34:22PM -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Jonathon Green (editor, _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_) privately > sent me a message in reply to my query about axe/chops, and with his > permission I now share it with ads-l. JEL in his message is Jonathan > Lighter, editor of (the invaluable) Historical Dictionary of American > Slang. > > >As regards chops = skill, I'm surprised that JEL missed the pre-1968 cites > >from available in Robert S. Gold: _Jazz Lexicon_ (1964) > > > >1947 Metronome Jan. 32: He might not have the chops he used to have, but > >his > >ideas are always fine > >1958 Down Beat 24 Jul. 14: While it lasted it helped musicians who weren't > >working because they could keep up their chops > >1962 Down Beat 27 Sep. 41: He's got a lotta chops, but he played way too > >long I'm surprised that JG missed the placement of the 1947 cite above in JEL--it's the first cite at sense 2.a., 'a trumpeter's strength of embouchure'. I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 7 02:30:20 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:30:20 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: <20021007022210.GA4657@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ > which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier > book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the > 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly > means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but > the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by > _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). My recollection is that _Jazz Talk_ is substantially the same book as _Jazz Lexicon_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 7 02:36:28 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:36:28 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 10:30:20PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > I don't have _Jazz Lexicon_ here, only the later _Jazz Talk,_ > > which lumps these together in an unhelpful way. In the earlier > > book does he actually claim that the 1947 exemplifies the > > 'skill' sense? I personally think that the 1947 cite clearly > > means 'lip strength' and not 'skill', as does the 1958, but > > the 1962 quote probably does belong to the 'skill' sense (by > > _Jazz Talk,_ at least, Gold seem to think so too). > > My recollection is that _Jazz Talk_ is substantially the same book as > _Jazz Lexicon_. It's not. I mean, it is substantially the same book, but the differences are notable enough that you do need to look at both. I'm sort of surprised by JG's comment, because I had previously though that the main differences were the adding of new material in _Jazz Talk,_ but his post suggests that cites and perhaps discussion that was in the Lexicon were removed for Talk. I should probably wait until tomorrow to respond, when I'll actually have both books together, but I'm quite sure that there's a lot in Talk that's not in Lexicon. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 06:43:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 02:43:12 EDT Subject: Yankee Pot Roast (1877); Jazz Creek Message-ID: YANKEE POT ROAST YANKEE Pot Roast? I thought the METS were on pot! I didn't even check this on the New York Times database, asssuming this term was at least mentioned by Washington Irving. To my surprise, both OED and Merriam-Webster have 1881, as does, of course, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. Making of America (Mich.-Books, Mich.-Journals, and Cornell) all turned up NOTHING for "pot roast." I was shocked! Not even the Library of Congress's American Memory database has a hit for "pot roast"! NOTHING on the three big databases of Americana! The Early Canadiana database gave ALL AROUND THE HOUSE, OR, HOW TO MAKE HOMES HAPPY (Toronto: J. Robertson, 1881) by Mrs. H. W. Beecher, pg. 136. This is a different 1881 citation from the one in OED. It takes the "pot roast" recipe from BUCKEYE COOKERY (1877). For more information, see the CENTENNIAL BUCKEYE COOK BOOK by Andrew F. Smith, available at an online bookseller near you. I'll check the NEW YORK TIMES later today (Monday) for a more well done "pot roast." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JAZZ CREEK Gerald Cohen is lecturing on "jazz" this December. I previously said that there was no "jazz" in Alaska--it wasn't the name of a town, river, mountain, creek, glacier, or anything. A check of PLANSUS shows two hits, both for "jazz creek," and both in the West. There is a Jazz Creek in Clearwater, Idaho, and a Jazz Creek in Clackamas, Oregon. Does Frank Abate or anyone else know approximately when these Jazz Creeks were named? From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 7 08:56:36 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:56:36 -0700 Subject: 1737 Dutch oven cite Message-ID: Thanks to Barry for turning up the earlier "Dutch oven" cite. I'm working on an article (slowly) on the meanings of the term, and speakers' interpretations of it. Any further grist to cook will be appreciated. Rudy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:46:24 -0400 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chew the Scenery; Dutch Oven (1737) DUTCH OVEN Another item that I thought I'd covered, but maybe not. OED has 1769 for "Dutch oven." It's not in DARE. I found many citations just now on the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE database. The earliest is 5 May 1737, in this list: ...Sauce-pans, Dutch Ovens and Stew Pans... ------------------------------ From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 7 09:02:05 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:02:05 +0100 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: In re Gold. I haven't read Jazz Talk, only Jazz Lexicon. And looking yet again at the entry for 'chops', I accept that here Gold states 'see 1962 quote' as regards 'technique' but as I trust Jesse would agree, the entry, at least in the Lexicon, is less than crystal-clear - 'lumped togther' as he puts it - and I would still suggest that the 1947 Metronome cite is open to interpretation. Is Robert Gold available for _his_ dictum? Jonathon Green From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Oct 7 09:32:38 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 05:32:38 -0400 Subject: 1737 Dutch oven cite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudy T said: >> Thanks to Barry for turning up the earlier "Dutch oven" cite. I'm working on an article (slowly) on the meanings of the term, and speakers' interpretations of it. Any further grist to cook will be appreciated. << Here's something to check out, anyway -- the negative use of "Dutch" in English. Examples include _Dutch courage_, _go Dutch_, etc. So is a Dutch oven a small thing that a Dutchman would think of as an oven, even though it lacks a source of heat? I think this stems from English jealousy towards the Dutch, esp. as the two empires were a-building, say 17th and 18th centuries. The Dutch kept beating the English to important markets and sources of goods (e.g., the so-called Spice Islands), and it hurt English pride. So they "got back" by castigating the Dutch in various expressions. Didn't help matters, as the Dutch continued as preeminent merchants, despite the tiny size of the country, the lack of a big army or navy, etc. The Netherlands remains a very important trading nation to this day, far more important than its population would suggest. It is a very wealthy country, too, and the Dutch invest their euro (was guilders) heavily all over the world. Dutch pension funds are a huge source of capital internationally. Then there's re-insurance. . . . OK, enough. Frank Abate From travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 7 12:24:39 2002 From: travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM (Travis Hall) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:24:39 +0000 Subject: My grandmother's favorite word Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Oct 7 12:48:32 2002 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:48:32 -0400 Subject: kyarny Message-ID: DARE shows "kyarny' as a variant for "carrion" in Alabama, Georgia, and s Appalachians. It has the sense of carrion crow, which is a turkey vulture or black vulture. Beyond the DARE information, perhaps it has some use as a negative or derogatory reference to people. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 7 13:19:43 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:19:43 -0500 Subject: Kyarny/carny Message-ID: Perhaps "carny" as in carnival/circus worker? ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Hall To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: My grandmother's favorite word While visiting my grandmotehr over the weekend, she used a word I have never heard, but would like to know more about. The word was (I have to guess at the spelling), "Kyarny." She called my uncle a, "Kyarny, good fer nuthin'!" Can anyone ehlp me with this word, which I suppose means lazy? Travis Scott Hall Elder Dragon Beta Lambda 456 >From: Mark A Mandel >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Anyone got a match?" >Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:54:37 -0400 > >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > >#On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: ># >#>> >I know it will finish dead last, but this is my nomination for Word of the >#>> >Year. >#>> >#>> WHICH word are you nominating? >#> >#>Not a single word, but the phrase in the subject line, "Anyone got a match?" ># >#O. I missed it! (Perhaps we should add a Phrase of the Year (POTY).) > >So did I. It's never a good idea to put content in the subject line >(only). > >-- Mark A. Mandel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 7 15:05:47 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:05:47 -0400 Subject: Jiggy redux Message-ID: Here's some early uses of "jiggy." Note that the first cite below, if historically accurate, would indicate usage by foreigners during World War II, and that the same phrase ("jiggy jig") seems to have made its way to Bali. "Jig," a lively dance, seems one possible derivation. >>"Another Time, Another Place," a film about Italian prisoners-of-war sent to work in Scotland during World War II. . . . When Luigi and Janie first meet, there is little time wasted on idle banter. The soldier from the south gets right down to business. "You like me?" Luigi asks. Janie replies, "Aye." With the ice being effectively broken, Luigi pops the big question, "Is possible, yes, we make jiggy jig?" Although Janie is suitably outraged by the request, it doesn't take long for her to succumb to the sensual thrills Luigi has to offer.<< Washington Post, Oct. 10, 1984. >>It was a palm-sized trinket, a jiggy-jiggy whose movable parts depicted a couple coupling.<< Chicago Sun-Times, Mar. 3, 1986. >>The American Repertory Theater first presented "The Day Room" last spring in the New Stages series, under Michael Bloom's direction. Restaged by David Wheeler and performed with a creepy exactitude, it's now part of the repertory at the Loeb. . . . John Bottoms is funny and unsettling as a crazy patient, and there are hypnotic moments of jiggy paranoia from Harriet Harris, Nestor Serrano, Isabell Monk and Harry S. Murphy.<< Boston Globe, Feb. 21, 1987. >>Kuta can be sleazy but good for people-watching. Tourists on an after-dinner stroll will quite likely be accosted with "Jiggy jig?", which we took to be local lingo for either "Would you like to dance?" or more likely, "Would you like cheap sex?" More forward locals simply come straight out and say: "Cheap girls?"<< Business Times (Singapore), Nov. 11, 1995. John Baker From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Oct 7 16:46:15 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:46:15 -0400 Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? Message-ID: I had always supposed that in jazz, an "ax" = "instument" because an ax was a tool that was swung when used. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Cohen Date: Sunday, October 6, 2002 11:24 am Subject: Does jazz "ax(e)" derive from jazz "chops"? > I'm preparing an article on slang "ax(e)" (= musical instrument), > with full gratitude and credit to all the ads-l contributors to this > topic of two years ago; I'll also contact each one individually. > > But I have one main point of uncertainty: whether to connect this > "ax(e)" with slang "chops" (jazz term denoting musical ability or > skill). This "chops" seems readily derivable from jazz "chops" (= "a > trumpet player's strength of embouchure"--HDAS), which in turn > derives from "chops" (= mouth or lips). > So perhaps "ax(e)" (= musical instrument) derived from the differing > meanings of "chops": 1) mouth; skill in playing e.g., a trumpet, 2) > strikes with an axe. > > The very knowledgeable members of this list often see things that > I miss. The above semantic hypothesis (axe as something one chops > with) seems plausible to me, but am I perhaps missing something here? > The inclusion of the "chops" discussion is just an addendum to the > "ax(e)" treatment and could easily be removed if it presents problems. > > For ready access I present HDAS information after my signoff. > > Gerald Cohen > > HDAS says of ax(e) meaning #4: "sense development unknown; perh. > sugg. by _sax_; perhaps infl. by _swing_. Jazz: a musical instrument, > esp. one on which jazz or rock music is played, as a saxophone, > trumpet, or guitar." > The first attestation cited is from 1955. > > Meanwhile, HDAS says of _chops_: > meaning #1a: "Now esp. Black English: the mouth or lips;..." -- first > attestation cited: 1589. > #2a: "Jazz. a trumpet player's strength of embouchure" -- first > attestation cited: 1947. > #2b. "Orig. Jazz: musical ability or skill; (hence) skill or ability > of any sort." -- first attestation cited: 1968. > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 7 17:30:10 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:30:10 -0700 Subject: jazz place names In-Reply-To: <161ca0a161cbdc.161cbdc161ca0a@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Someone asked earlier (sorry, I hit delete a bit too hastily) if there is any information on Jazz Creek, Clackamas County, Oregon. Jazz Creek is a small stream that flows into the Collowash River (just north of Dunno Creek) in the SE corner of the county in a remote part of the Mount Hood National Forest. There is no history of the name in McArthur's Oregon Geographical Names (4th ed.). USGS has listed it since it published a computer generated list of Oregon place names in 1983. Perhaps the name was given by the Forest Service, but that is just a guess. You can see it on a topographical map available through: http://www.topowest.com/Oregon/Places/index.html allen maberry at u.washington.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 17:45:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:45:33 -0400 Subject: Yankee Pot Roast (1932) Message-ID: I just checked on NEW YORK TIMES, and "pot roast" is from 1895. Too late! "Yankee pot roast" seems late, too. 19 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 ad: Yankee Pot Roast With Noodles Choice of Vegetables 30 cents at Windsor Cafeterias (O.T.: Thanks to Allen Maberry for all that "jazz." It seems strange that there are not more "jazz" place names--but then again, where is Skiddooville? Now, for Idaho's "Jazz Creek"...) From mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Mon Oct 7 18:51:21 2002 From: mnadki01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Mandy Adkins) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:51:21 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021005123208.00a603c0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Here's one for ya. My Gramma says, "That ain't worth diddley squat." Where did 'diddley squat' come from? From simon at IPFW.EDU Mon Oct 7 15:42:51 2002 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:42:51 -0500 Subject: and Monsoon Wedding sister Message-ID: The brother - sister relation is a particularly important bond. In exogamous areas, the daughters in a family marry outside the immediate locality, often miles, and in some cases, into families states away (e.g. a Hindu family of Gujerati background living in Banaras, in Uttar Pradesh, might well marry their daughters into families in Gujerat). Ideally, the brother is the one who, in a sense, watches the sister's back. He is the one who is her immediate protector, the one who checks out the men in the prospective in-law family, the one who travels to the sister's new home, who brings her what she needs, who brings her back to her natal family at least for the birth of the first child. Committing violence on one's sister, or any sexual act involving one's sister, is particularly egregious, and sister-f**ker is a particularly provocative label. One the other hand, or, perhaps, because of that hand, sister-f**ker is sometimes the label of choice. beth >>> preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU 10/05/02 20:29 PM >>> In Louisville in the 1940s and early 50s we never jabbed our popsicles into the air, although we both said up your ass and had at least the left hand on inner side of elbow with right lower arm up-lifted which clearly had that meaning. I'm sure we would have adopted the popsicle insult if only someone had introduced it. We were precursors of iconicity. dInIs From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 7 19:19:29 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:19:29 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <1034016681.3da1d7a938285@ldap.morehead-st.edu> Message-ID: At 2:51 PM -0400 10/7/02, Mandy Adkins wrote: >Here's one for ya. My Gramma says, "That ain't worth diddley squat." >Where did 'diddley squat' come from? First cite in RHHDAS: She ain't never had nothin'-not eben doodly-squat, and when she gits uh chance tuh git holt uh sumpin de ole buzzard is gone on uh rampage. (Zora Neale Hurston (1934), Jonah's Gourd Vine, cited in OED entry) Lots of other examples from Nexis are discussed in my paper: Flaubert Triggers, Squatitive Negation, and Other Quirks of Grammar (in J. Hoeksema et al., eds., Perspectives on Negation and Polarity Items, 173-200. Amsterdam: John Benjamins) Among other things, I discuss both "licensed" squatitives (That ain't worth doodly-squat/shit/fuck-all/...), which are analogous to negative concord constructions in languages like Spanish and Italian ("Non ho visto niente") or non-standard English ("I didn't see nothing"), and "unlicensed" squatitives (You know doodly-squat/fuck-all about it), which are more like negative polarity items in English ("I didn't see anything"). In both cases, "doodly-squat" and its analogues represent minimal entities on some scale, or "minimizers", as Bolinger has called them. We've discussed this a bunch on the list, with lots of examples, especially "jack-shit". Larry From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Mon Oct 7 19:51:26 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:51:26 -0400 Subject: Crackberry In-Reply-To: <20E0396A.2A038B43.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Just back from a consulting gig in DC. We don't have them here in the islands, but everyone on the Hill is wearing a Blackberry, a kind of super two-way messaging pager. Capitol Hill staffers are so addicted to their Blackberries for storing large amounts of contact information, staying abreast of breaking news, and flashing messages back and forth that the device is referred to as a Crackberry. rhk From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 7 22:49:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:49:01 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini, Fagioli (1912) Message-ID: NYU's special collections had just these two ITALY (Southern) Baedekers--1890 and 1912. I checked them both today. I couldn't copy them and wrote notes by hand, so please forgive any errors. ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS THIRD PART. SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY WITH EXCURSIONS TO THE LIPARI ISLANDS, MALTA, SARDINIA, TUNIS, AND CAORFU by Karl Baedeker Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1890 (Tenth Revised Edition) Pg. XX: _Minestra_ or _Zuppa_, soup. _Consume_, broth or bouillon. _Zuppa all Sante_, soup with green vegetables and bread. _Risa con piselli_, rice-soup with peas. _Risotto_, a kind of rice-pudding (rich). _Macaroni al burro_, with butter; _al pomidoro_ or _alla Napolitana_, with tomatoes, see p. xxi. _Manzo_, beef. _Lesso_ or _bollito_, boiled meat. _Fritto_, fried meat. _Fittura mista_, liver, brains, artichokes, etc., fried together. _Frittata_, omelette. (M-W has 1931?-ed.) _Arrosto_, roasted meat. _Bisteca_, beefsteak. _Coscietto_, loin. _Arrosto de vitello_, or _di mongana_, roast-veal. _Testa di vitello_, calf's head. _Fegato di vitello_, calf's liver. _Costoletta_ or _braccioletta di vitello_, veal-cutlet. _Potate_, potatoes. _Quaglia_, quail. _Tordo_, field-fare. _Lodola_, lark. _Sfoglia_, a kind of sole. _Antepasto, principi alla lavola_, or _piattini_, hot relishes. _Funghi_, mushrooms (often too rich). Pg. XXI: _Prosciutto_, ham. (M-W has 1929, OED 1938--ed.) _Salami_, sausage. _Pallo_, or _pollastro_, fowl. _Gallotta_, _Gallinaccia_, turkey. _Umidi_, meat with sauce. _Stufatino_, ragout. _Erbe_, or _Legumi_, vegetables. _Piselli_, peas. _Lenticchie_, lentils. _Cavoli fiori_, cauliflower. _Fave_, beans. _Fogiuolini_, French beans. _Sale_, salt. _Mostarda_, simple mustard. _Senape_, hot mustard. _Ostriche_, oysters (good in winter only). _Frutta_ or _Giordinetto_, fruit-dessert. _Crostata di frutti_, fruit-tart. _Crostata di pasta sfoglia_, a kind of pastry. _Fragole_, strawberries. _Pesa_, peas. _Pomi_ or _mele_, apples. _Persici_, peaches. _Uva_, bunch of grapes. _Limone_, lemon. _Arancio_ or _Portogallo_, orange. _Pane francese_ or _mecanico_, bread made with yeast (the Italian is without). _Finocchio_, root of fennel. _Formaggio_, or in S. Italy _gaccio_, cheese. _Vino rosso_ or _neso_, red wine; _bianco_, white; _asciutto_, dry; _dolce_, sweet; _vin del paese_, wine of the country. The _Maccaroni_ of Naples is much esteemed, but is generally hard, and should therefore be ordered "ben cotti." It is usually flavoured with _pomi d'oro_ (tomatoes), of which the Neapolitans are very fond. _Sea-fish_ and _ragosta_, a kind of lobster, excellent. Shell-fish soup (_Zuppa di vongole_), a good but indigestible dish. (...) Cafe noir (_Caffe Nero_) is most commonly drunk (15-20c. per cup). _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (20-30c.); or _caffe e latte_, i.e. with the milk served separately, may be preferred (30-40c.). The usual viands for lunch are ham, sausages, cutlets, and eggs (_uova de bere_, soft; _toste_, hard; _uova al pratto_, fried). Ices (_sorbetto_, or _gelato_) of every conceivable variety are supplied at the cafes, particularly in Naples, at 30-90c. per portion; or half-a-portion (_mezza_) may generally be odered. _Granita_, or half-frozen ice (_limonata_, of lemons; _aranciata_, or oranges; _di caffe_, of coffee), is chiefly in vogue in the afternoon. SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY WITH EXCURSIONS TO SARDINIA, MALTA, AND CORFU HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1912 (Sixteenth Revised Edition) (Items here are not necessarily in order. They were mixed with some of the above--ed.) Pg. XXIII: _Mostarde francese_, French or sweet mustard (mixed with vinegar). _Pasta asciutta_, macaroni... Pg. XIV _Merluzzo_, _baccala_, cod. _Calamaio_, cuttle-fish. _Frutta di mare_, mussels, shell-fish, etc. _Zuppa di pesce_, fish soup (strongly flavoured owing to the cuttle-fish). _Zuppa de vongole_, clam soup (somewhat indigestible). _Palpettine_, small meat-dumplings. _Pasticcio_, pate, patty. _Asparagi_, asparagus (usually green). _Broccoli_, _cavoli flori_, cauliflower. _Fagioli_, haricot-beans. _Zucchini_, small pumpkins. (OED & M-W have 1929--ed.) _Crochetto_, croquettes of rice or potatoes. _Gnocchi_, small dumplings. _Dolce_, sweet dish. _Dudino_, pudding. _Crostata_, tart. _Frittata_, omelette. _Zuppa Inglese_, a kind of trifle. (OED has under "Zuppa," after about 1961!--ed.) Pg. XXV: _Caffe latte_ is coffee served with warm milk (25-50c.; "_cappuccino_," or small cup, cheaper). (M-W has 1927 for "caffe latte," 1948 for "cappuccino." But who uses these obscure Italian words?--ed.) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 7 23:46:28 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:46:28 -0500 Subject: Origin of the emoticon :-) Message-ID: I noticed the following item in the German magazine _Spiegel_ (Sept. 21, 2002, p.68: (title): INTERNET BITTE L?CHELN Viele Jahre war sie verschwunden, nun ist sie wiederentdeckt worden, p?nktlich zu ihrem 20. Jahrestag: die erste Internet-Nachricht, in der ein Emoticon verwendet wurde. Mitarbeiter von Microsoft und der Carnegie Mellon University haben has erste :-) auf einem Backup-Tape aufgest?bert, auf dem Beitr?ge gespeichert sind, die am 19. September 1982 in einem Diskussionsforum getippt wurden. Die Nachricht stammt von Scott Fahlman, der damals as Informatiker an der Carnegie Mellon University arbeitete. Fahlman ?rgerte sich dar?ber, dass ironische Beitr?ge zu oft nicht verstanden wurden, deshalb schrieb er: "Ich schlage vor, dass von nun an eine Zeichensequenz einen Witz kennzeichnen soll, n?mlich :-)." Zuvor hatte es andere Vorschl?ge gegeben, # oder \_/, aber es war Fahlmans Idee, die sich durchsetze und dutzendfach variiert wurde. Und heute gibt es f?r fast jede Stimmung das passende Zeichen. [Translation]: (title): INTERNET PLEASE SMILE For many years it had disappeared, now it has been rediscovered, just in time for its 20th anniversary: the first Internet message in which an emoticon was used. Co-workers of Microsoft and Carnegie Mellon University have located the first :-) on a backup-tape on which entries are stored, which were typed on Sept. 19, 1982 in a discussion forum. The message comes from Scott Fahlman, who at the time was working as a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon University. Fahlman was irritated that too often ironic entries were not understood. For that reason he wrote: "I suggest that from now on a sequence of signs should indicate a joke, namely :-). Previously there had been other suggestions, # or \_/, but it was Fahlman's idea, that gained acceptance and was varied in dozens of ways. And today for almost every mood there is an appropriate sign. Gerald Cohen From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 8 01:45:14 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:45:14 -0400 Subject: Crackberry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Crackberry" has been around for at least the last two years. It's been submitted to the Jargon Watch column several times, though I've never used it. My favorite "crack" usage is "cardboard crack," used to refer to collectible card games such as "Magic: The Gathering" and "Pokemon." There's also "Evercrack," which I have used in the column. This refers to Everquest, the highly addictive multiplayer online game that's destroyed more than a few relationships, nest eggs, etc. Gareth On Monday, October 7, 2002, at 03:51 PM, Rick H Kennerly wrote: > Just back from a consulting gig in DC. We don't have them here in the > islands, but everyone on the Hill is wearing a Blackberry, a kind of > super > two-way messaging pager. Capitol Hill staffers are so addicted to > their > Blackberries for storing large amounts of contact information, staying > abreast of breaking news, and flashing messages back and forth that the > device is referred to as a Crackberry. > > rhk > From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 03:33:04 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:33:04 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ink-Stained Wretches (1921); Pizazz (1937) Message-ID: Barry Popik has asked me to pass along the following message; everything below this line is from him. -- Jesse Sheidlower INK-STAINED WRETCHES Where does "ink-stained wretches" come from? With computers, perhaps the term no longer applies nowadays. The first four NEW YORK TIMES hits are all by Alexander Woollcott, and the first few are all in the theatrical pages. 18 September 1921, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 68: Certainly, it seems to prey upon the ink-stained wretches who turn out books and plays. I'm going through the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE from 1934, looking at the early columns of Lucius Beebe. On Sunday, 8 April 1934, section V, pg. 2, cols. 6-8, Beebe talks about the late Henry Taylor Parker, famed drama critic of the BOSTON EVENING TRANSCRIPT. Did Woolcott get the term from Parker? From col. 7: ...and urging heaven to witness the harrowing incompetence of office boys (whom he invariably designated as "wretches")... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PIZAZZ There are "pizazz" hits in the classified ads of 22 May 1913 and 19 May 1935, but I'm goin blind finding those. This one hints at the origin. 26 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3 ad: _THIS THING CALLED PIZAZZ_ Pizazz, to quote the Harvard Lampoon and Harpers Bazaar, is an indefinable dynamic quality. Certain clother have it. _TAILORED WOMAN_ From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 03:45:25 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:45:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Irish Soda Bread (1934); London Broil (1934) Message-ID: The following is another posting forwarded for Barry Popik; none of it below this line is mine. -- Jesse Sheidlower IRISH SODA BREAD New York City has lots of Irish immigrants, so I looked for the full "Irish soda bread" (not just "soda bread"). The NEW YORK TIMES has it from only 30 January 1938. 19 March 1934, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, pg. 10, col. 5: (Photo caption--ed.) This unusual loaf, bespecked with raisins, is Irish soda bread. (...) Irish soda bread is a flavorful variation from the more usual varieties, and a bakery in Third Avenue makes a specialty of this generally elusive product. The round loaves, like hot cross buns, have crosses on the top, the texture of the ready made loaf resembles that of French bread, although it is less porous and contains raisins. Two sizes are sold, the small one costs a dime and an extra large loaf is 20 cents. Inquire of the Food Markets editor for the name of this shop. (Gee, thanks. I'll ask right now--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LONDON BROIL OED was way off on "London Broil." I'd spotted it in New York City in 1932. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES "London Broil" is in an ad for Gallaghers Restaurant on 1 November 1934, pg. 34. This recipe is from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE magazine section, 15 April 1934, pg. 17, col. 3: _London Broil_ 1 leftover rare roast of beef 2 tablespoons butter Salt an pepper Parsley or watercress Carve the roast into six 1/4-inch slices. Place in a hot skillet in which the butter has been melted. Sear each slice, not allowing more than 1/2 minute to a side. Sprinkle with salt and pepper. Place on a hot platter, (Col. 4--ed.) garnish with parsley or watercress and serve immediately. THis makes 8 servings. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 8 08:44:47 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:44:47 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini, Fagioli (1912) In-Reply-To: <69A2BDBA.4175C153.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Just a comment -- Barry's findings in the 1890 and 1912 copies of Baedeker's guides for Italy are very significant, it seems to me. There are old Baedeker guides around (they are usually red, I think, and quite compact, as they were for travelers). I've seen them at tag sales, used bookstores, and such, and they're cheap. I can check the few I have for food term antedatings. I never thought to do it before. Thanks again, Barry, for your diligence. Frank Abate PS: I think that there were several antedatings of MW and OED because the diets of the lexos there are too bland. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 8 10:53:19 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 05:53:19 -0500 Subject: pizzazz (was: Ink-Stained Wretches (1921); Pizazz (1937) Message-ID: >At 3:26 AM +0000 10/8/02, bapopik at juno.com wrote: >PIZAZZ > > There are "pizazz" hits in the classified ads of 22 May 1913 and >19 May 1935, but I'm goin blind finding those. This one hints at >the origin. > > 26 February 1937, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3 ad: >_THIS THING CALLED PIZAZZ_ >Pizazz, to quote the Harvard Lampoon and Harpers Bazaar, is an >indefinable dynamic quality. Certain clothes have it. _TAILORED WOMAN_ A few years ago I wrote a working paper on this term: "Towards the origin of _pizzazz_," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 29, no. 1, Oct. 1999, pp.14-17. I'm pressed for time today. Tomorrow I can reproduce parts of the article for ads-l, although for now I would just mention the wordsmithing creativity of the newspaper _San Francisco Bulletin_ of ca. 1913, the futuristic-sounding words in -azz- (not the least important being "jazz"), and specifically "lallapazzazza" (based obviously on "lallapaloosa"); drop the "lalla-" part of "lallapazzazza" and the result is pretty close to "pazzazz," one of the attested spellings of "pizzazz." For "lallapazzazza," here is an item from my _Dictionary of 1913 Baseball and Other Lingo_ (just published); the entry is from _San Francisco Bulletin_: LALLAPAZZAZZA 'lallapaloosa' -- March 28, 1913, p.19/1-2; 'New Oakland Park One Fine Place, Is Opinion of Fans'; subtitle: 'Recreation Park [in S.F.] Must Now Take Second Place to Grounds Across the Bay.' by 'Scoop Gleeson'; col. 1: 'A futurist would likely set down his impression of the new baseball grounds as "a lallapazzazza."' More tomorrow. Gerald Cohen (editor, _Comments on Etymology_) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 8 13:20:36 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:20:36 -0400 Subject: Caffe Latte, Prosciutto (1890); Cappuccino, Zucchini Message-ID: On 8 Oct 2002, at 4:44, Frank Abate wrote: > PS: I think that there were several antedatings of MW and OED because the > diets of the lexos there are too bland. Well, perhaps, but the blander our diets, the quieter our work environment, which is very helpful to us in making tight deadlines. But you of all people ought to know, Frank, that pasta e fagioli is about as bland as food gets! Your fellow half-Sicilian and fagioli-eater, Joanne D. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 8 16:10:31 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:10:31 -0700 Subject: a new complement-taking verb Message-ID: i suppose it was inevitable, given the metaphorical extension of "masturbate" i talked about briefly a little while ago. here's a sentence from a posting to the newsgroup sci.lang today (from a poster notably down on the chinese): >While Chinese dorks were masturbating how great their Chinese >character inventions were, Koreans took a step further to educate >the common people. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Tue Oct 8 16:10:43 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:10:43 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? Message-ID: The December 8, 1975 issue of Business Week says that "In the 1950s, the big 'anchor stores' that acted as magnets for customers of suburban shopping centers -- and often owned them -- demanded and won considerable say over the rest of the tenant mix." This has got me thinking that the phrase "anchor store" was around in the 50s. Can anyone confirm this or give an earliest date for this phrase? Thanks. Paul From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 8 16:15:21 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:15:21 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? In-Reply-To: <073601c26ee5$45588330$ef9afea9@paul> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 12:10:43PM -0400, Paul McFedries wrote: > The December 8, 1975 issue of Business Week says that "In the 1950s, the big > 'anchor stores' that acted as magnets for customers of suburban shopping > centers -- and often owned them -- demanded and won considerable say over > the rest of the tenant mix." This has got me thinking that the phrase > "anchor store" was around in the 50s. Can anyone confirm this or give an > earliest date for this phrase? We have two examples from 1960 in our files. Nothing from the '50s. Jesse Sheidlower OED From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 8 16:45:16 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:45:16 -0700 Subject: IV: it lives still Message-ID: duane campbell: >On Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:19:59 -0700 Arnold Zwicky >> from the 5 october 2002 Palo Alto Daily News, a garden column >> (provided by a service, i think, not written locally) by lee >> reich, "Getting the creeps", about virginia creeper: >> In fact, the word "ivy" lacks precise botanical meaning, and >> is applied to any number of vining plants... >Aside from his mistaken derivation of Ivy League, Lee Reich is also >wrong, or at best foggy, about ivy. Ivy is ivy, genus Hedera, and >people involved with plants at anything beyond the most superficial >level know that. >The fields of botany and horticulture can provide an interesting >paradigm for linguists. There are in essence two separate parallel >languages, and those of us involved in the field slip from one into >another almost without distinction, unless we are very careful... i was going to comment on that. as someone who grew plants of the genus Geranium in his garden in ohio and now grows plants of the genus Pelargonium (commonly called 'geraniums') in his garden in california, i have trouble negotiating the vocabulary. calling pelargoniums 'pelargoniums' seems pedantic (like insisting on referring to tomatoes, eggplants, zucchini, etc. as 'fruits' rather than 'vegetables') and probably wouldn't mean anything to non-specialists, so i end up calling pelargoniums 'geraniums' and geraniums 'true geraniums' or 'wild geraniums'; 'cranesbill' would be better, but only plant people seem to be familiar with that name. on the lily (vs. daylily, lily of the nile, peruvian lily, etc.) and ivy (vs. boston ivy, swedish ivy, etc.) fronts, though, i am adamant: 'lily' is Lilium, 'ivy' is Hedera. (i see that the Sunset Western Garden Book, which is aimed at serious amateurs, agrees with me.) 'daisy' is hopeless, and SWGB doesn't even give it an entry with a cross-reference. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 8 17:18:05 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:18:05 -0400 Subject: "Anchor store" from the 50s? In-Reply-To: <20021008161521.GA21576@panix.com> Message-ID: The only cite I found in our files for "anchor store" was from 1985, which seems suspiciously little and late; it may be that slips have been pulled for Collegiate editing that haven't been refiled yet. In any case, I haven't seen anything antedating Jesse's 1960s cites. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 8 20:51:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:51:45 -0400 Subject: "quick a feet" Message-ID: A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Oct 8 22:31:00 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:31:00 -0400 Subject: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >passport. dInIs >A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... > >In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional >Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from >some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just >about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners >nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he >explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for >the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused >on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver >shifted horses mid-sentence: > >"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >have that quick a feet." > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 9 00:20:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:20:16 EDT Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke Message-ID: I saw the book NEW YORK, YEAR BY YEAR (2002) by Jeffrey Kroessler at my local Barnes & Noble. Kroessler is president of the Society for New York City History (SNYCH), and he credits Peter Salwen in the introduction. I e-mailed Kroessler (as I've e-mailed Salwen for the past seven years, without a response) that it's long past time to get the "Big Apple whore theory" off the web. Unlike Salwen, Kroessler e-mailed back. The "whore theory" was all a joke! Yes, we'd known all along that not a single "true fact" checked out. But the point is, it's on the New York Public Library's web site as the truth! It takes up half the box in LET'S GO NEW YORK 2002! It was mentioned as true last year in the SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST and in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN! Despite my constant efforts, the African-American responsible for "the Big Apple" has never been honored by the city. SNYCH could have at least HELPED. I told Kroessler again to take the "whore joke" off the web. I guess Kroessler and Salwen both think it's still funny. Barry Popik (letter attached below) Subj: Re: Get Salwen to remove his "Big Apple" libel from the web! Date: 10/8/2002 9:13:54 AM Eastern Standard Time From: kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu To: Bapopik at aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) It's a joke. And obviously so, as there are several clues that are obvious. Jeff Kroessler From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Oct 9 03:30:08 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:30:08 -0500 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >>passport. > >dInIs > I think it's the border between North and South. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics > >>A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... >> >>In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional >>Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from >>some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just >>about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners >>nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he >>explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for >>the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused >>on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver >>shifted horses mid-sentence: >> >>"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >>have that quick a feet." >> >>larry > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 9 04:27:22 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:27:22 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: Arnold's exasperation over the distinction reminded me of long-buried memories of my first year in California (at UCLA), when I was quickly corrected every time I expressed admiration and amazement at the "geraniums" growing so luxuriantly everywhere. After awhile I learned to make the distinction, though "geraniums" sold here in Tucson often look suspiciously like pelargoniums. Reminds me also (re an earlier discussion) of the sign in Safeway here for "yams" posted above a box (from California) labeled "sweet potatoes". Maybe not everything from California sweeps the whole country. Rudy From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 9 05:46:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:46:51 -0700 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to > >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no > >>passport. > > > >dInIs > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the union in 1861. McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 9 09:48:19 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 04:48:19 -0500 Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke Message-ID: This is a bizarre development. An author (Mr. Kroessler) with pretensions to credibility puts his credibility behind an explanation which collapses upon examination There's not a shred of evidence in favor of the whore theory for NYC's sobriquet "The Big Apple," and yet its veneer of plausibility has gained it some adherents among the public. The "several clues" about the falseness of the theory may be obvious to Mr. Kroessler, but they are cryptic at best to the public, which seems totally unaware of them. If this is intended as a joke, where is the laughter? The more appropriate term is "hoax." Is SNYCH (Society for New York City History) a bona-fide historical society, or is it also intended as a joke? The name sounds official, which of course adds to the public's willingness to accept the whore-theory as a bona fide possibility. Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages University of Missouri-Rolla editor, _Comments on Etymology_ author of a book on the origin of the name "The Big Apple," plus several follow-up articles on the subject (with full credit to Barry Popik for his discoveries in this field). One follow-up article concerns the whore theory. At 8:20 PM -0400 10/8/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:20:16 EDT >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Big Apple "whore theory" was all a joke >Comments: cc: gersh.kuntzman at verizon.net, enosthroop at yahoo.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Oct 2002 00:20:23.0209 (UTC) >FILETIME=[A88F2190:01C26F29] > > I saw the book NEW YORK, YEAR BY YEAR (2002) by Jeffrey Kroessler at my >local Barnes & Noble. Kroessler is president of the Society for New York >City History (SNYCH), and he credits Peter Salwen in the introduction. > I e-mailed Kroessler (as I've e-mailed Salwen for the past seven years, >without a response) that it's long past time to get the "Big Apple whore >theory" off the web. > Unlike Salwen, Kroessler e-mailed back. > The "whore theory" was all a joke! > Yes, we'd known all along that not a single "true fact" checked out. But >the point is, it's on the New York Public Library's web site as the truth! >It takes up half the box in LET'S GO NEW YORK 2002! It was mentioned as true >last year in the SOUTH CHINA MORNING POST and in SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN! > Despite my constant efforts, the African-American responsible for "the Big >Apple" has never been honored by the city. SNYCH could have at least HELPED. > I told Kroessler again to take the "whore joke" off the web. I guess >Kroessler and Salwen both think it's still funny. > >Barry Popik >(letter attached below) > >Subj: Re: Get Salwen to remove his "Big Apple" libel from the web! >Date: 10/8/2002 9:13:54 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: HREF="mailto:kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu">kroessler at postbox.csi.cuny.edu >To: Bapopik at aol.com >Sent from the Internet (Details) > > > >It's a joke. And obviously so, as there are several clues that are >obvious. >Jeff Kroessler From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 9 10:07:00 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 06:07:00 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" Message-ID: Larry H noted: >> A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." << As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor of his throwing arm. Frank Abate From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 9 12:12:57 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:12:57 -0400 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope that runs right through Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois (for the territory under discussion). Go listen if you don't believe me. dInIs What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no passport. dInIs I think it's the border between North and South. Barbara Need UChicago--Linguistics A real live example of one of those "a" + plurals we've been talking about... In last night's deciding Game 5 of the National League Divisional Series between the Braves and Giants, announcer Tim McCarver (from some border state like Kentucky--I forget exactly which one) was just about to make a point about how some infielders who are slow runners nevertheless have quick feet as fielders, like Brooks Robinson (as he explained afterward) or J. T. Snow, who had just made a nice play for the Giants. But in the middle of his utterance, the camera focused on Snow blowing a bubble that exploded over his nose, and McCarver shifted horses mid-sentence: "It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and have that quick a feet." larry -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 9 12:33:53 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:33:53 EDT Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes Message-ID: YAMS/SWEET POTATOES I've been reading through some vegetarian magazines. From VEGETARIAN TIMES (www.vegetariantimes.com), October 2002, pg. 63: Yams? DId someone say yams? "Those things that most people think are yams are not yams," says Jessica Harris, PhD, a culinary historian specializing in African, American and South American foods and a professor at Queens College CUNY in Manhattan. (Isn't Queens College in QUEENS? Does anyone edit copy anymore?--ed.) "Although thousands of Southerners will call them yams until the day they die (UNTIL THE DAY THE YAMS DIE?--ed.), a sweet potato is most definitely not a yam." The sweet potato (_Ipomoea batata_) is a member of the morning glory family, _Convovulaceae_. Its skin is usually coppery-colored, and its flesh ranges from yellow to orange and tastes decidedly sweet. A yam, on the other hand, is a member of the _Disocorea_ family. Yams are big, hairy, scaly and usually have a whitish flesh that is not sweet. Neither is related to the white potato, _Solanum tuberosum_. (Pg. 63--ed.) Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ (which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes being grown by Colonial settlers. The word "yam" stuck and has for centuries. To add to the confusion, Louisiana sweet potato growers in the 1930s collectively started using the word "yam" in marketing efforts to distinguish their sweet potatoes from those grown in North Carolina and other Eastern states. MISC. The VEGETARIAN TIMES includes an article on meditation. VEGGIE LIFE has an ad to "Increase Breast Size" on page five; I missed back issues on "Natural Menopause" and "Sarah McLachlan Profile." As I said, I don't subscribe to these magazines. HEROINES--From VEGGIE LIFE (Autumn 2002, www.VeggieLife.com), pg. 13, col. 1: "Hero subs aren't just for him. Women often make the mistake of building a vegetarian diet around salads and pasta, ending up short of protein, iron, and zinc. So, here's a solution that provides 68 percent of a woman's protein for the day, and over half of what a man requires. Make the sandwiches with just one style of veggie meat or use several. Try veggie pepperoni, chicken, turkey, salami, ham, deli slices, or a mix. Some brands are fortified with iron and zinc." MUSCLE MUFFINS--In VEGGIE LIFE, pg. 15. The author doesn't tell us, but this name is trademarked. SOYCICLE--A VEGGIE LIFE article in the Summer 2001 back issue. Only one Google hit! AFGHAN BREAD WITH SPINACH--Recipe in VEGETARIAN TIMES, pg. 28. "Afghan bread and the seasoning _zahtar_ are sold at Middle Eastern markets and some well-stocked supermarkets." Many Google hits. TVP or textured vegetable protein--VEGGIE LIFE has a nice little glossary on page 61. It includes this term and "blackstrap molasses," "nutritional yeast," "Szechuan peppercorns," and "tofu, pressing." OED has "TVP" from July 1968. Trademark records show that Archer Daniels Midland registered first use 2 May 2002 for "unflavored and meat and poultry flavored vegetable protein food." From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Wed Oct 9 12:08:37 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:08:37 -0400 Subject: "Mango" for Green Peppers In-Reply-To: <200210090422.AAA121630@f05n16.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: Hello: I was remembering that my mother from Eastern Pennsylvania used to call green peppers "mangos". Her friend from Indiana did the same, and I have also heard that it was used in Ohio. Does anyone know the origin of this use of "mango"? Thank you in advance Elizabeth -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 9 13:40:12 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:40:12 -0400 Subject: a new complement-taking verb In-Reply-To: <200210081610.g98GAVC08107@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: That's brilliant. Kind of the opposite development that "ejaculate" underwent! Ben On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > i suppose it was inevitable, given the metaphorical extension of > "masturbate" i talked about briefly a little while ago. here's a > sentence from a posting to the newsgroup sci.lang today (from a poster > notably down on the chinese): > > >While Chinese dorks were masturbating how great their Chinese > >character inventions were, Koreans took a step further to educate > >the common people. > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 14:16:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:16:47 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:07 AM -0400 10/9/02, Frank Abate wrote: >[Re McCarver and his > >"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >have that quick a feet."] ><< > >As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I >recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after >him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was >honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things >after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor >of his throwing arm. > >Frank Abate I'm sure you and Dave Wilton are both right; Tennessee it is. And with apologies to dInIs, I'm not that confident I'd be able to distinguish a Tennessee from a Kentucky speaker; I agree they're both south of the relevant border (and north of another one; I can tell McCarver isn't from Georgia or Alabama). L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 14:19:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:19:34 -0400 Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes In-Reply-To: <7d.2ee7b6fe.2ad57c31@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:33 AM -0400 10/9/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >YAMS/SWEET POTATOES > > I've been reading through some vegetarian magazines. From VEGETARIAN >TIMES (www.vegetariantimes.com), October 2002, pg. 63: > >... Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ >(which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes >being grown by Colonial settlers. I always love it when they say that. Now what was the European word for "to eat" again? And the Asian word for "sweet potato"? larry From einstein at FROGNET.NET Wed Oct 9 14:38:35 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:38:35 -0400 Subject: Yams/Sweet Potatoes Message-ID: from larry horn quoting barry popik: >... Confusion may have arisen because the African word, _nyami_ or _unyam_ >(which means "to eat") was used by slaves to refer to the sweet potatoes >being grown by Colonial settlers. I always love it when they say that. Now what was the European word for "to eat" again? And the Asian word for "sweet potato"? _______________________________________ I've always thought it odd but my Bavarian mother-in-law (b. 1910) insisted that nyam-nyam was the childish way kids appreciated a good tasting husarkrapfen! It reminds me of what Swadesh used to say--that the Zuni word for "blood" was the same as the Hebrew-- that chance coincidences do occur. -db _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 15:53:11 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:53:11 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone (he happens to be the leading tax law scholar of all time) has asked me the following question: When he was a boy in Rochester, N.Y. around 1925 he used the expression "honest to God and hope to die." He is wondering whether there is any dictionary or other source that would give information as to the history or currency of this expression. For what it's worth, when I was a boy in the early 1960s I was familiar with the expression "cross my heart and hope to die," although I may have gotten this from hearing it used in earlier movies or television show reruns rather than from then-current usage. Can anyone suggest anything? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 9 16:09:01 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:09:01 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:53:11AM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Someone (he happens to be the leading tax law scholar of all time) has > asked me the following question: When he was a boy in Rochester, N.Y. > around 1925 he used the expression "honest to God and hope to die." He is > wondering whether there is any dictionary or other source that would give > information as to the history or currency of this expression. > > For what it's worth, when I was a boy in the early 1960s I was familiar > with the expression "cross my heart and hope to die," although I may have > gotten this from hearing it used in earlier movies or television show > reruns rather than from then-current usage. > > Can anyone suggest anything? The OED has _cross my heart and hope to die_ from 1926 s.v. _cross_ v. 3.b., and _cross my heart_ from 1908 in the same place. I'd start there. There's also an 1891 example of "hope to die..cross my breast" from 1891 s.v. _Injun_ b. The _hope to die_ element is found from 1865 (Dickens) in the form "wish I may die" s.v. _die_ v.(1) I. 3.c. B. J. Whiting's _Modern Proverbs and Proverbial Phrases_ has _cross my heart and hope to die_ from 1949. He doesn't seem to have the _honest to God_ variant (with which I'm personally unfamiliar) in this or his other books. We have a non-insignificant number of examples of some variant of _cut my throat and hope to die_, the earliest being 1968 from a Scottish source. Ira Gershwin's "Let's Kiss and Make Up," from the 1927 _Funny Face,_ begins with "I didn't mean to/Start any scent to/Make you sigh./ Hope to die!" I just noticed that this is also in OED. I'll leave it to Barry to check the other databases. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 16:14:22 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:14:22 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <20021009160900.GA8735@panix.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Jesse, for this quick and superb response. I guess I should have done some checking myself before posting my query. I still would welcome any further information from other people. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 9 16:43:07 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:43:07 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "honest to God and hope to die." "cross my heart and hope to die" While "cross my heart and hope to die" was certainly in current usage among the kids I grew up with in Lincoln NE in the 30s, my impression is that "honest to God" was more likely to have been heard from adults. I can't remember ever hearing "honest to God" & "and hope to die" together. A. Murie From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 18:58:31 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:58:31 -0400 Subject: FW: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:16 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 6:07 AM -0400 10/9/02, Frank Abate wrote: >>[Re McCarver and his >> >>"It's always amazed me how a guy can can blow that big a bubble and >>have that quick a feet."] >><< >> >>As for McCarver, I believe he is from Tennessee, I'm not sure which part. I >>recall him once talking about how they named a minor-league park in TN after >>him, at the place where he played before making it to the Bigs. He was >>honored, he said, but also concerned, because normally they only name things >>after dead people. But then he realized that they were naming it in honor >>of his throwing arm. >> >>Frank Abate > >I'm sure you and Dave Wilton are both right; Tennessee it is. And >with apologies to dInIs, I'm not that confident I'd be able to >distinguish a Tennessee from a Kentucky speaker; I agree they're both >south of the relevant border (and north of another one; I can tell >McCarver isn't from Georgia or Alabama). > >L Very good! Some of us would still prefer to call the region in question the South Midland, not the South. From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Oct 9 19:38:57 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:38:57 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'.") Peter R. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:05:36 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:05:36 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "honest to God and hope to die." I have never heard that. I have heard "honest to God" but not with "and hope to die" attached. > "cross my heart and hope to die" I have heard that all my life (TX, AR, MO, LA, TN). Bethany From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:14:18 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:14:18 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember wondering about that the first time I heard another kid use the phrase (way back in childhood--So. California, mid- to late 1940s). My puzzlement was cleared up when I heard a different kid recite the complete oath, viz.: "Cross my heart and hope to die If I ever tell a single lie." Now I only wonder why the heart-crossing part is even there--it seems superfluous. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:38 PM -0700 Peter Richardson wrote: > German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I > know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid > thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm > lyin', I'm dyin'.") > > Peter R. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:30:57 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:30:57 -0400 Subject: "Mango" for Green Peppers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave Bergdahl wrote a piece on this for AmSpch some years ago--citation, Dave? At 08:08 AM 10/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hello: > >I was remembering that my mother from Eastern Pennsylvania used to >call green peppers "mangos". Her friend from Indiana did the same, >and I have also heard that it was used in Ohio. > >Does anyone know the origin of this use of "mango"? > >Thank you in advance > >Elizabeth >-- >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. >Instructional Designer >Education Technology Services, TLT >Penn State University >ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 > >228A Computer Building >University Park, PA 16801 >http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 >http://tlt.psu.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 9 20:44:31 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:44:31 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <1090724.1034169258@[10.218.200.211]> Message-ID: Doesn't the heart crossing come from the sign of the Cross in Christian ritual? Thus, it commits you to tell the truth in a BIG way. At 01:14 PM 10/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I remember wondering about that the first time I heard another kid use the >phrase (way back in childhood--So. California, mid- to late 1940s). My >puzzlement was cleared up when I heard a different kid recite the complete >oath, viz.: > >"Cross my heart and hope to die >If I ever tell a single lie." > >Now I only wonder why the heart-crossing part is even there--it seems >superfluous. > >Peter Mc. > >--On Wednesday, October 9, 2002 12:38 PM -0700 Peter Richardson > wrote: > >>German "Hand aufs Herz" takes care of the heart-crossing, but as far as I >>know there's no accompanying wish for death. How old might that morbid >>thought be? (I'm assuming that what's behind it is something like "If I'm >>lyin', I'm dyin'.") >> >>Peter R. > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 9 20:50:30 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:50:30 -0400 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: <20021009160900.GA8735@panix.com> Message-ID: All I've been able to find in our files is a slip with the heading "hope to die," the label "new words," and a reference to "Slang Collected by T.A.K. before 1920" (but no definition). I've not been able to find a published work by that title in the card catalogue, leading me to suspect that the initials belonged to an editor, though which one I couldn't say for sure (perhaps Thomas A. Knott?). I grew up hearing "cross my heart and hope to die," as well as the apparently euphemistic variant, "cross my heart and hope to spit," in northeastern MA during the 60s. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Oct 9 21:07:43 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:07:43 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: Rudy: > Arnold's exasperation over the distinction reminded me of long-buried > memories of my first year in California (at UCLA), when I was quickly > corrected every time I expressed admiration and amazement at the > "geraniums" growing so luxuriantly everywhere. After awhile I learned to > make the distinction, though "geraniums" sold here in Tucson often look > suspiciously like pelargoniums. > > Reminds me also (re an earlier discussion) of the sign in Safeway > here for "yams" posted above a box (from California) labeled "sweet > potatoes". Technically(that is botanically), geraniums *are* pelargoniums and what are usually labeled "yams" in grocery stores are sweet potatoes. I don't know why whoever was "correcting" you about the use of "geranium" was so stuffy. Up here in backward Seattle, these plants are and always have been, geraniums. And stores still call sweet potatoes yams. People would probably "get it" if you labeled "yams" as "sweet potatoes", since people are more or less familiar with the latter. But calling a geranium a pelargonium? It's kind of like calling an "African violet" a saintpaulia(which, botanically speaking, is what an African violet is). Nobody would know what you were referring to. Except maybe at a botanist's conference. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Wed Oct 9 22:00:42 2002 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:00:42 -0500 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: "Texas. A Whole Other Country." Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put a colon in a tourism slogan) I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole NOTHER...." I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the word "whole" in there for emphasis. I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as a colloquial phrase? Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or acceptability of the phrase? Thanks in advance for your consideration -- Susan Yerkes San Antonio Express-News fax: 210-250-3405 direct phone: 250-3455 From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Oct 9 21:20:55 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:20:55 +1000 Subject: farm gate Message-ID: There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these are mirrored in America.) Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU Wed Oct 9 22:06:42 2002 From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:06:42 +1000 Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: I am trying to track down social groups where it is accepted for males to address their female consorts as "bitch", "whore" and the like: Come on, bitch, we're late and that the female consorts accept this as something akin to an endearment. (There are apparently no parallel vocative terms for females to use in addressing males.) This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. In what social domains is this practice known in the US? Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 9 22:22:38 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:22:38 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yerkes, Susan said: >Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: > >I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and >seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. > > >I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a >special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest >state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: > >"Texas. A Whole Other Country." > >Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put >a colon in a tourism slogan) >I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" >in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace >the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) > >I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, >and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate >Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. > >Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole >NOTHER...." >I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the >word "whole" in there for emphasis. >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? > >Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question >for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or >acceptability of the phrase? I dunno if it helps with origins, but I was in grad school (in linguistics) at UT Austin in the mid-late 70s. Some of my classmates were Texans, but many of us had come to Texas for grad school. I recall a discussion of both forms ("a whole other" and "a whole nother"). I can't tell you which came first, but both forms were definitely alive and kicking in Texas 25 years ago. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Oct 9 22:35:03 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:35:03 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and > internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. I've never heard the word used among gay women of my acquaintance, or used it myself, in the way you describe. Perhaps my cohorts are a bit old-fashioned, but I think most of them would find the vocative use of "bitch" highly offensive. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 9 22:42:09 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:42:09 -0700 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: This is not a Texas-ism. It is alive and well in both Oregon and Minnesota. fritz I dunno if it helps with origins, but I was in grad school (in linguistics) at UT Austin in the mid-late 70s. Some of my classmates were Texans, but many of us had come to Texas for grad school. I recall a discussion of both forms ("a whole other" and "a whole nother"). I can't tell you which came first, but both forms were definitely alive and kicking in Texas 25 years ago. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 9 22:48:44 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:48:44 -0700 Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. Fritz This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. In what social domains is this practice known in the US? Roly Sussex -- ********************************************************** Roly Sussex Professor of Applied Language Studies Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies The University of Queensland Brisbane Queensland 4072 AUSTRALIA Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 Email: sussex at uq.edu.au Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html School's website: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ Language Talkback ABC radio: Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ ********************************************************** From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 9 23:14:44 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: farm gate Message-ID: In south-central Kentucky we always called this a "gap," and I know no other name for it. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Prof. R. Sussex [mailto:sussex at UQ.EDU.AU] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:21 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: farm gate There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these are mirrored in America.) From patty at CRUZIO.COM Wed Oct 9 23:20:29 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:29 -0700 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh dear - my husbands friends all used "bitch" and basically in conversation JUST as Roly describes ever since I met them, about 20 years ago! They are all from Palo Alto (Calif.) and this sure struck me/ was offensive to me when I first joined the group! Eventually, I spoke up about it and I got the guys in the group to back off from this a little over the years. This was not the way I was used to being addressed from my teen dating years in Santa Monica (Calif., Los Angeles area)! They may have picked it up as 'blue collar teenage males'. Unfortunately, several of them stuck with it. I just followed the lead of the other women in the group who didn't bat an eye when they were referred to as "the bitches" as in, "well we can leave and go to the club when the bitches are ready". A memorable experience - I was bewildered that the other women didn't react to this and I was dumbstruck thinking to myself that I was going on a DATE with this crowd, huh?!?! My husband slips into this speech style (he is lucky I am a descriptive not proscriptive linguist :} ) after he has been out with the guys. These guys all keep in touch, there is a large network, all from Palo Alto High School, graduating in the 70's and they sure sound alike so I would say this style of speech probably goes back 30 years, at least in Palo Alto. Patty At 03:48 PM 10/9/02 -0700, you wrote: >I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high >school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think >anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called >bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, >particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an >Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. >Fritz > > >This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in >Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. > >I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and >internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > >In what social domains is this practice known in the US? > >Roly Sussex > >-- >********************************************************** > >Roly Sussex >Professor of Applied Language Studies >Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics >School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies >The University of Queensland >Brisbane >Queensland 4072 >AUSTRALIA > >Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 >Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 >Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 >Email: sussex at uq.edu.au >Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html >School's website: > http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ > >Language Talkback ABC radio: >Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ >Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ > >********************************************************** From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:18:50 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:18:50 -0700 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." And as long as that question has come from Texas: Has there been talk of slapping the "Don't mess with Texas" on license plates? I was astonished to hear, during my last visit to Houston, that that admonition isn't meant to be as belligerent as it sounds (i.e. "Don't fool with me or I'll slap you upside a the head"), but rather to ask people not to litter the pristine Texas landscape. True? Peter R. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:33:04 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:33:04 -0400 Subject: farm gate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Baker, John wrote: > In south-central Kentucky we always called this a "gap," and I know no other name for it. That was also true in southeast and central TX when I lived there (1937-1959). And I have no other word for it. Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:43:50 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Peter Richardson wrote: >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think That's my take. >And as long as that question has come from Texas: Has there been talk of >slapping the "Don't mess with Texas" on license plates? I was astonished >to hear, during my last visit to Houston, that that admonition isn't meant >to be as belligerent as it sounds (i.e. "Don't fool with me or I'll slap >you upside a the head"), but rather to ask people not to litter >the pristine Texas landscape. True? ALso my take. Bethany, native Texan and native speaker of whole nother (and other infixes) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:51:06 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:51:06 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0700 10/9/02, Peter Richardson wrote: >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think >immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a >grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." > It's been called an infix, but I object, since it doesn't show up elsewhere or otherwise behave like an infix. True English infixes include "fuckin" and "bloomin" (Massafuckinchusetts, absobloodlylutely) and have been described in some detail in various papers (they're constrained by stress patterns, among other things). As for "nother", it's a classic reanalysis or metanalysis (albeit perhaps a disingenous one for some speakers). Examples are a newt (formerly "an eft/ewt") a norange (reanalysis in French, actually; cf. Span. "naranja", orig. < Arab. "naranj") and in the other direction an umpire (formerly "noumpere" or "non-peer"/"non-pair") an apron (cf. "nappe", "napkin") More available on request. larry From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 10 00:54:33 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:54:33 -0500 Subject: a whole other question Message-ID: >At 5:18 PM -0700 10/9/02, Peter Richardson wrote: > >Isn't the "a whole nother" business an example of infixing, or has that >notion been discarded by now? When I hear the "whole nother" I think >immediately of a radio announcer commenting after something like a >grand-slam HR: "Wal, it's a whole nother ball game, folks." > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties up the game in the late innings). *** At 5:00 PM -0500 10/9/02, Yerkes, Susan wrote: >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? There's no way to tell who might have first created a given syntactic blend. As for the reason for the survival of "It's a whole (n)other..." the answer must be that it expresses emphasis. And in language there's an ever present need to find ways to express emphasis. Gerald Cohen Professor of Foreign Languages author of a monograph on syntactic blends in English maintainer of an open mind in case someone on the list wishes to reject the above interpretation From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 9 22:58:39 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:58:39 -0400 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:07:43 -0700 Anne Gilbert > > Technically(that is botanically), geraniums *are* pelargoniums A koan: If gernaiums are pelargoniums, then what are geraniums? D From jazzmanbb at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 01:01:33 2002 From: jazzmanbb at YAHOO.COM (jazz man) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:01:33 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: I have an interesting question for anyone who might want to answer it. Where did "no worries" enter slang? I've seen it attributed to Australians in movies and whatever else, but how did it become so popular? Jordan Baines (Student at Linfield College) "The poet, like the lightning rod, must reach from a point nearer to the sky than all stationary objects, down to the earth and into the dark wet soil, or neither is of use" Emerson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 02:15:28 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:15:28 -0700 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: from Larry:> > As for "nother", it's a classic reanalysis or metanalysis (albeit > perhaps a disingenous one for some speakers). Examples are ...so _nother_ just winds up being a synonym for _new_, eh? Peter R. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 02:43:32 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:43:32 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >...so _nother_ just winds up being a synonym for _new_, eh? > >Peter R. ~~~~~~~ Yes, in the ballgame context, but probably just _different_ in many other cases. A. Murie From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 10 03:57:40 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:57:40 -0500 Subject: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Nope that runs right through Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois (for the >territory under discussion). Go listen if you don't believe me. > >dInIs For the record, I was referring to a political border, not a linguistic one. Barbara >What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to >Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no >passport. > >dInIs > > >I think it's the border between North and South. > >Barbara Need >UChicago--Linguistics From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 04:07:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:07:30 -0400 Subject: Sashimi (1876) Message-ID: OED and Merriam-Webster have 1880 for "sashimi," an important food of Japanese cuisine. OED also has 1880 for "tofu," but Merriam-Webster has 1771. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 14 October 1876, pg. 5: _A JAPANESE DINNER._ _EIGHT COURSES OF A PECULIAR REPAST._ _A SCENE IN A YEDDO RESTAURANT._ (...) The first course consisted of sweet-meats called quashi,... (...) The second course was "Chawan-Mori," a sort of soup with eggs, somewhat similar to soup a la Colbert. (...) THe third course was composed of a variety of fish, with the colelctive name of "Kuchi-Tori-Sakana." The first was a kind of shell-fish, ("Awabi;") the second, the meat of a lobster, ("Ebi,") and with these, served, as a relish, was a small fruit, called "Youzo," a species of citron, which it much resembled in flavor. The fourth course consisted of a sweetened preparation of boiled beans, served with green ginger-root, and another variety of fish, called "tai," fried. The fifth course, called "Sachi-Mi," consisted of raw fish, served upon a delicate lattice work of glass, and accompanied by two kinds of sauce, one dark in color, salt in flavor, and tasting as if composed of soy and anchovies. The other was a preparation of horse-radish. The sixth course was called "Miza-Gai," and consisted of "koi," a kind of fish, boiled, and served with pears and a variety of shell-fish, very much resembling our American scallops, and cut in squares. The seventh course was composed of rice, "meshi," served perfectly plain in small porcelain cups. The eighth and last course, called "Skemoro," was a sort of salad composed of egg-plants and small cucumbers. With each course after the first was served _saki_... (...) Beans are an important article and from these is manufactured _tofee_, or _tofe_--literally, bean-cheese--an article largely used by the poorer classes. (...) From dsgood at VISI.COM Thu Oct 10 06:34:27 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:34:27 -0700 Subject: Border States In-Reply-To: <20021010040130.0CD014AEF@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:46:51 -0700 > From: Dave Wilton > Subject: Re: Border states was Re: "quick a feet" > > > >>What border is Kentucky on? I lived there for years, goin' to > > >>Indiana and Ohio and Tennessee, and Illinois and never needed no > > >>passport. > > > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. > > Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and > Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the > union in 1861. > > McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he > did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. I'm fairly sure it _was_ a border state. I'm certain it was a slave state. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 04:32:13 2002 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:32:13 EDT Subject: vocative "bitch" Message-ID: Oh wow. Vocative "bitch" was all over the groups I came from in high-school (predominantly heterosexual) and college (predominantly homosexual). >From what I can remember of high-school, I was "bitch" to my friends, both female and male. My hetero male friends were called "bitch" from other males, but I can't recall how it was used, and I know it also went heterosexual female-to-female non-derogatorily. I can't recall if it ever crossed sexes (without a derogatoy reading). In college it is/was much more fairly spread. Hetero to homo, male to female, and all possible combinations thereof are common. I use it constantly. However, I can't recall heterosexual guys saying it to heterosexual girls without giggling. The other way around works, though. My old roommate called her boyfriend "bitch" constantly. Whenever I meet new people, that's the first thing I remind myself.... "don't say bitch, don't say bitch..." -dsb Douglas S. Bigham University of Texas - Austin From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 10 05:14:42 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:14:42 -0700 Subject: Border States In-Reply-To: <3DA4BD03.24466.77AAA5@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Dan Goodman > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Border States > > > > I think it's the border between North and South. > > > > Yes, the "border states" are Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and > > Missouri. These were slave states, but voted not to secede from the > > union in 1861. > > > > McCarver is from Tennessee, which is not a border state. Although he > > did play much of his career for St. Louis in Missouri. > > I'm fairly sure it _was_ a border state. I'm certain it was a slave > state. No, Tennessee was never considered one of the "border states." It seceded from the Union and joined the Confederacy in 1861. After the war, Tennessee did, however, quickly ratify the 14th Amendment and was readmitted to the Union before the Radical Republicans took control of Congress in 1867. It therefore escaped the penalties of Reconstruction that were visited on the other states of the Confederacy. Of course none of the this has anything to do with linguistics (aside from the definition of "border state"). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 07:52:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 03:52:04 EDT Subject: Chinese Chicken Salad (1968) Message-ID: From the food section in Wednesday's NEW YORK TIMES, 9 October 2002 (about LA delis): But perhaps even more than in New York, the local deli owners acknowledged, they were compelled to make significant changes in their menus because so many customers were health conscious. "When I started, you had three salads ? chef's salad, cottage cheese and sour cream with canned peaches or pears, and Jewish chop suey, which is chopped vegetables with sour cream," said Mr. Ginsburg with a laugh. "Now we have a Chinese chicken salad, Cobb salad, you name it. Sour cream is on the way out. And God help you if you serve canned fruit." What's the deal with Chinese chicken salad? Neither John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK nor Jean Anderson's AMERICAN CENTURY COOKBOOK has it. There are over 8,000 Google hits! The NEW YORK TIMES, 9 July 1978, pg. L16, has a recipe for it. The earliest I could find was an ad in the NEW YORK TIMES, 19 May 1968, pg. BR47, _The Art of Salad Making_ by Carol Truax: And there are special international salads (from Austrian Apple-Potato Salad to Chinese Chicken Salad)... From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Oct 10 09:30:57 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:30:57 +0100 Subject: No Worries Message-ID: It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. G.A. Wilkes, in the Dict. Australian Colloqualisms (3 edn.), has a citation for 'no worries' dated 1966; the Australian National Dictionary has one in 1969. I have found one, in the 'Barry McKenzie' cartoon strip - running in the UK satirical magazine Private Eye from 1963-74. Unfortunately my cite comes from a 'collected' version of the strip, so its precise date is hard to pin down but (based on the book's overall pagination) I would put it, again, around the mid-Sixties. Jonathon Green From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 12:52:22 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:52:22 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? A. Murie From stefan.grondelaers at ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE Thu Oct 10 12:57:39 2002 From: stefan.grondelaers at ARTS.KULEUVEN.AC.BE (Stefan Grondelaers) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:57:39 +0200 Subject: Conference announcement (Measuring lexical variation and change) Message-ID: Apologies for multiple postings Conference announcement On October 24-25, the research unit Quantitative lexicology and variational linguistics of the Department of Linguistics of the University of Leuven hosts the symposium MEASURING LEXICAL VARIATION AND CHANGE A Symposium on Quantitative Sociolexicology Made possible by the Fund for Scientific Research - Flanders Aim This workshop brings together researchers in the field of variational lexicology and diachronic vocabulary studies who use quantitative methods. Although such methods have been used less intensively in the study of lexical variation and change than they have been employed in the field of phonetics, morphology, or other linguistic variables, there is a growing body of quantitative research on the distribution of words over language varieties and the diffusion of lexical changes over time. The symposium intends to create a forum for the confrontation and the comparison of the different approaches involved. Structure & schedule The workshop consists of 5 plenary sessions (1 hour) and 12 regular sessions (35'). Invited speakers are: Nigel Armstrong (University of Leeds) Peter Auer (University of Freiburg) Harald Baayen (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics Nijmegen & University of Nijmegen) John Nerbonne (University of Groningen) Terttu Nevalainen (University of Helsinki) In order to ensure a highly focused event with maximal interaction between the participants, the number of regular presentations is limited to 12, and there are no parallell sessions. The full programme, as well as abstracts of all the lectures can be found on the conference website http://wwwling.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/sociolex Conference venue The symposium will take place in the Groot Begijnhof "Grand Beguinage", Leuven's magnificent Unesco heritage. The Begijnhof, which was founded in the 13th century outside the town walls, is a microcosmos of picturesque 16th-17th C houses, little cobbled alleys, narrow bridges, and an early Gothic church. It is now a residence for University staff and Foreign guests. The lectures are organised in the neighboring Irish College (1607), where a buffet lunch will also be served. Dinner will be served in the magnificent 16th C infirmary of the Faculty Club. Accommodation & fees For participants who present a paper, participation in the symposium, as well as lunch and dinner on Thursday and Friday are free of charge. Accommodation will be arranged for active participants in the Begijnhof Congress Hotel (www.begijnhofcongreshotel.be) (to be paid for by the participants themselves). If you are interested in attending the symposium as a passive participant, please send an e-mail to Dirk Geeraerts, Stefan Grondelaers & Dirk Speelman (by October 16 at the latest) at the following address: sociolex at listserv.cc.kuleuven.ac.be Additional information on the conference organisers & the conference schedule, the conference venue (how to get there) & registration, can be found on the conference website http://wwwling.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/sociolex From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 13:07:23 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:07:23 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 13:11:01 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:11:01 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: The NY Times has a short piece this morning in the "Circuits" section on Bert Vaux's online dialect survey. He's at Harvard. Maybe this is general knowledge among you, but I somehow missed it. 122 questions with maps asking how respondents pronounce various words. It's at www.hcs.harvardedu/~golder/dialect/. Some interesting stuff, but some obvious problems-- he asks about the pronunciation of "aunt" but I didn't see any query about informant's race. Also he doesn't ask informants if they merge cot-caught before asking them to match up one of those two vowels with their "aunt" pronunciation. Also answer c and d are indentical.... Here's the question 1. aunt a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [] when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [/] when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) h. other (0.80%) (624 respondents) Dale Coye New Jersey From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 13:17:06 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:17:06 -0700 Subject: "Honest to God and hope to die" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My experience growing up in Utah in the 50's and 60's was similar. I don't recall ever hearing "Honest to God" joined with "Hope to die" into one phrase, but I hear either phrase individualy all the time. --- sagehen wrote: > "honest to God and hope to die." > "cross my heart and hope to die" > > While "cross my heart and hope to die" was certainly > in current usage among > the kids I grew up with in Lincoln NE in the 30s, > my impression is that > "honest to God" was more likely to have been heard > from adults. I can't > remember ever hearing "honest to God" & "and hope > to die" together. > A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Thu Oct 10 12:31:49 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:31:49 -0400 Subject: Mango & Green Peppers - Summmary In-Reply-To: <200210100421.AAA142140@f05n16.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: Hello: The general consensus on the mango-green pepper issue is that the connection was pickling. According to David Bergdahl's AmSpch note, which he kindly sent me, mangos first arrived in the U.S. in pickle form in the mid 19th century. Hence, in some cases other similarly pickled fruits and vegetables, including green peppers, also became mangos. The distribution for mango as green pepper is apparently from Pennsylvannia through parts of Illinois including Ohio, Indiana and parts of Kentucky. Thanks to David Bergdahl, Joan Houston Hall, Rima McKinzey, Steve Peter and Beverly Flanigan for their help. Elizabeth -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 14:01:20 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:01:20 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/10/02 9:11:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dalecoye at AOL.COM writes: > answer c and d are indentical.... Here's > the question > > 1. aunt > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [] > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but [/] > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > h. other (0.80%) > (624 respondents) Also the arithmetic is suspicious. Adding up all the percentages from a thru h, inclduing both c and d, you get 99.99% (the last .01% is round-off error). That implies that c and d were tabulated separately and both were included in the count. Why then do c and d have exactly the same response (2.24%, which is 14 people)? Did 28 people answer EITHER c or d and were allocated evenly to what turns out to be two identical answers? Or did c and d each just happen to have 14 respondents? - Jim Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 14:18:29 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:18:29 EDT Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: I see now I was confused (too hasty in looking it over) -- c and d are not the same answer...d is for those who merge the vowels of cot and caught... also there is a race question (optional) when you sign in. It's tricky to do this kind of survey as I found several years ago... > 1. aunt > > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > [] > > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > [/] > > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > > h. other (0.80%) > > (624 respondents) > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 14:40:51 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:40:51 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <42945.3243229643@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: David Bergdahl writes: >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > wrote: > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >> A. Murie ~~~~~~~ I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just this particular context. AM From ejp10 at PSU.EDU Thu Oct 10 14:01:28 2002 From: ejp10 at PSU.EDU (Elizabeth J. Pyatt) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:01:28 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Mango & Green Peppers - Summmary Message-ID: >Hello: > >The general consensus on the mango-green pepper issue is that the >connection was pickling. According to David Bergdahl's AmSpch note, >which he kindly sent me, mangos first arrived in the U.S. in pickle >form in the mid 19th century. Hence, in some cases other similarly >pickled fruits and vegetables, including green peppers, also became >mangos. > >The distribution for mango as green pepper is apparently from >Pennsylvannia through parts of Illinois including Ohio, Indiana and >parts of Kentucky. > >Thanks to David Bergdahl, Joan Houston Hall, Rima McKinzey, Steve >Peter and Beverly Flanigan for their help. > >Elizabeth > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. Instructional Designer Education Technology Services, TLT Penn State University ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 228A Computer Building University Park, PA 16801 http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10 http://tlt.psu.edu From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Oct 10 14:44:10 2002 From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:44:10 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and > internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > > Roly Sussex A colleague of mine used to be a city bus driver in Portland, Oregon. There was this gay couple who regularly rode his bus (he assumed they were gay because they always shopped for groceries together and were quite touchy-feely). One day he was quite surprised to hear the bigger, butch man tell the smaller, stereotypically effeminate man, "Be quiet, bitch!" Apparently the smaller man didn't say anything in reply. This would have happened approximately 15 years ago. What came to mind when I heard the above were certain public service ads that I've seen on subways and buses. They were targeted to gays and lesbians, telling them that homosexual relationships can be abusive too and that help is available for victims of same-sex domestic violence--call this 1-800 number. I suppose this is an example of "bitch" as an endearment and not gay and lesbian domestic violence. Judy From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM Thu Oct 10 14:57:00 2002 From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:57:00 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I recently wrote my second cousin a letter and used the expression "on pins and needles" in the following context. "When do early admission college applicants hear whether they were accepted? Is your son on pins and needles waiting to hear?" I grew up in rural/suburban Illinois in the 50's & 60's. I think I grew up hearing "on pins and needles" in this context, i.e. anxiety over waiting to hear or find out something specific. I wouldn't use it in the sniper context which is stronger and more generalized anxiety. I've heard "pins and needles" to describe tingly numbness as when your leg falls asleep, but do not myself use it that way. Patricia Kuhlman pskuhlman at juno.com Brooklyn, NY On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:40:51 -0400 sagehen writes: > David Bergdahl writes: > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on > suburban LI) > > > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > > wrote: > > > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation > experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a > reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" > where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > ~~~~~~~ > I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually > occurring > in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), > just > this particular context. > AM > > From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 10 15:08:51 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:08:51 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't use it in speech. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 15:22:38 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:22:38 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <42945.3243229643@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Me too--Minnesota, same time period (and I still use it). At 09:07 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > wrote: > >>In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >>people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >>on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd >>have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >>A. Murie > > > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 10 15:31:19 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:31:19 -0700 Subject: No Worries In-Reply-To: <000c01c2703f$be78e600$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: > It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. G.A. Wilkes, in > the Dict. Australian Colloqualisms (3 edn.), has a citation > for 'no worries' dated 1966; the Australian National > Dictionary has one in 1969. I have found one, in the 'Barry > McKenzie' cartoon strip - running in the UK satirical magazine > Private Eye from 1963-74. Unfortunately my cite comes from a > 'collected' version of the strip, so its precise date is hard > to pin down but (based on the book's overall pagination) I > would put it, again, around the mid-Sixties. I would say that the phrase was popularized in the US by Australian comedian Paul Hogan. He uses that phrase several times in his 1986 movie "Crocodile Dundee." From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 15:47:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:47:54 -0400 Subject: No Worries In-Reply-To: <000c01c2703f$be78e600$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: #It does indeed appear to be an Australianism. Terry Pratchett's _The Last Continent_, 1998, is set in a place based on Australia and richly loaded with Australian images, archetypes, slang, and cliches, including this one, which seems to appear in almost every conversation. (Hmm. Amazon offers it http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0061059072/qid=1034264705/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5599507-6306241?v=glance for List Price: $6.99 [lined out] Price: $6.99 [boldface, red] Wow, I can't pass up a bargain like that!) -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 15:50:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:50:00 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: #In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by #people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter #on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have #expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? Not I. -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:03:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:03:32 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:40 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >David Bergdahl writes: > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > > > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen > > wrote: > > > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > ~~~~~~~ >I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring >in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just >this particular context. >AM The restoration of feeling usage is minor, I suspect; my only acquaintance with the phrase is metaphorical. From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 10 16:10:05 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:10:05 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. John Baker From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:14:14 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:14:14 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021010112325.02d6ecd8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Me too--while I do associate the term with "an arm or leg falling asleep" its metaphorical usage is much more prevalent--that's the usage I responded to as "heard it all my life." --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:03 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > At 10:40 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> David Bergdahl writes: >> > Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban >> > LI) >> > >> > --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen >> > wrote: >> > >> >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >> >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a >> >> reporter on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" >> >> where I'd have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? >> >> A. Murie >> ~~~~~~~ >> I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring >> in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just >> this particular context. >> AM > > The restoration of feeling usage is minor, I suspect; my only acquaintance > with the phrase is metaphorical. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 16:21:05 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:21:05 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After being folk etymologized into "tender hooks" it fits anxiety better 'n fear! --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:10 PM -0400 "Baker, John" wrote: > I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the > metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of > anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for > the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience > (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper > area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. > > John Baker _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Oct 10 17:17:27 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:17:27 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: I don't find the expression odd at all. I know it as describing some sort of anxiety (would never use it for the numbness-usage that has been suggested). So, the usage that was heard on NPR doesn't bother me at all. However, I think there was a song back in the 60's that was called "Needles and Pins." (does anyone know who sang it and what its correct title is?). But I really have no idea what the 'needles and pins' in the song are for . The order of words in the phrase 'pins and needles' now sounds a little odd to me, since I have heard that song so many times. I have never heard 'tenterhooks'. Fritz Oregon >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 10/10/02 08:08AM >>> >From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't use it in speech. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > A. Murie > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:23:55 2002 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:23:55 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: Lyrics of Needles and Pins at: http://www.jackiedeshannon.com/music/needlesandpins/lyricsn&p.htm Recorded by Jackie DeShannon; written by Jack Nitzsche and Sonny Bono. http://www.jackiedeshannon.com/music/needlesandpins/nandp.html George Cole Shippensburg University From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Oct 10 17:29:50 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:29:50 -0700 Subject: on-line dialect survey (B. Vaux) Message-ID: Dale Coye wrote: > > I see now I was confused (too hasty in looking it over) -- c and d are not > the same answer...d is for those who merge the vowels of cot and caught... > also there is a race question (optional) when you sign in. It's tricky to > do this kind of survey as I found several years ago... > > 1. aunt > > > a. [] as in "ah" (9.94%) > > > b. [] as in "ant" (75.16%) > > > c. [] as in "caught" (2.24%) > > > d. I have the same vowel in "ah", "caught", and "aunt" (2.24%) > > > e. I pronounce it the same as "ain't" (0.64%) > > > f. I use [/] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > > [] > > > when referring to a specific person by name. (7.21%) > > > g. I use [] when referring to the general concept of an aunt, but > > [/] > > > when referring to a specific person by name. (1.76%) > > > h. other (0.80%) > > > (624 respondents) I'm interested in f/g. I'm in the Silicon Valley which a large Indus population and I'm used to the younger grade-school-aged generation calling me "Sally auntie," with "auntie" as the honorific they use for an older family friend. I once listened to a fourteen-year-old dismayed because a five-year-old called her "auntie." The fourteen-year-old said she wasn't _that old. In a recent news article about the services for Prem Kumar Walekar, a victim of the East Coast sniper, the AP report said, "Nieces and nephews sang songs and remembered a man they called "Prem Uncle" while standing under a video screen that flashed snapshots from his life." Now, maybe the young people were all nieces and nephews of Prem Kumar Walekar, but my first thoughts were that the reporter misunderstood the use of the "Uncle" honorific and the young people were not necessarily related to the deceased. Anyone else know? Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:37:19 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:37:19 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <317064.3243241265@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I personally interpreted it "tinderhooks" until the first time I saw it spelled. Don't ask me why--whatever "tinderhooks" might be, the word is no more transparent to me than "tenterhooks." As for "on pins and needles," I've heard it all my life, and only in the metaphorical sense. My mother (born in TX, grew up in OK) used it all the time, so it's been around a lot longer than I have. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:21 PM -0400 David Bergdahl wrote: > After being folk etymologized into "tender hooks" it fits anxiety better > 'n fear! > > --On Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:10 PM -0400 "Baker, John" > wrote: > >> I've heard both meanings of "pins & needles," with the >> metaphorical usage more common. There is often a suggestion of >> anticipation as well as anxiety: "I was on pins and needles waiting for >> the test scores." "On tenterhooks" is far less common in my experience >> (having lived in Kentucky, Massachusetts, and now Maryland in the sniper >> area), and it strikes me that I do not know what a tenterhook is. >> >> John Baker > > > > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:41:06 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:41:06 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with the reanalysis judgment (vs. infixing)--but more seriously, why does the slogan bother you so much? And yes, even we "articulate" Ohioans use both versions of the phrase, whether we're word mavens or not. It survives because it's useful. Beverly Flanigan Associate Professor of Linguistics Ohio University At 05:00 PM 10/9/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Dear word mavens on this highly interesting list-serve: > >I'm a newspaper columnist in San Antonio, Texas, who reads religiously and >seldom can contribute. Now I have the gall to ask for your insight, to boot. > > >I've been writing about Texas' most recent initiative to boost tourism...a >special license plate can now be purchased featuring one of the hoariest >state slogans the tourism bureaucrats can come up with. It is: > >"Texas. A Whole Other Country." > >Aside from the inappropriate period (but it might make some squeamish to put >a colon in a tourism slogan) >I am intrigued by the use of "a whole other" >in an official slogan. (Not to mention appalled to think it will soon grace >the license plates of those who want to pay extra for the distinction) > >I have heard people use the construction "a whole other....." occasionally, >and just the other day (not the whole other day, however) an articulate >Ohioan used it in a sentence over the phone, which surprised me. > >Some of my colleagues say they'd like it better if it was "a whole >NOTHER...." >I assume that colloquialism really splits "another" into two, putting the >word "whole" in there for emphasis. >I further assume that "A whole OTHER" is a variation on the above. But is it >new? Who started it, and is there any explicable reason for its survival as >a colloquial phrase? > >Have y'all (as we say) ever addressed this? Is it an appropriate question >for this list? And if so, any comments on the usage, variation and/or >acceptability of the phrase? > >Thanks in advance for your consideration -- >Susan Yerkes >San Antonio Express-News >fax: 210-250-3405 >direct phone: 250-3455 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 10 17:49:08 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:49:08 -0400 Subject: vocative "bitch" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The term is often used as an in-group identity marker among African American women, even here in Ohio. Black men use it too, though I haven't heard it used man to man. Sometimes it's affectionate (as in the first case I cited), sometimes it's offensive. Young white college men use it too, and even to me--but I had just chewed one out for parking on my lawn.... I've always assumed it was an Americanism first, but I'm not sure. At 03:48 PM 10/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I have never heard anyone use this. I have been at the university and high >school over the past 25 years (in both Oregon and Minnesota). I think >anyone I have ever come across would be highly offended by being called >bitch. On the other hand, I have heard that some groups DO use this, >particularly certain types of rappers--gangsta. The report that it is an >Americanism has me a bit worried--it definitely needs to be qualified. >Fritz > > >This use is moderately common in blue-collar teenage males in >Australia, and is reported to be an Americanism. > >I have been told that this practice is found in US biker gangs, and >internationally in-group between homosexuals, both male and female. > >In what social domains is this practice known in the US? > >Roly Sussex > >-- >********************************************************** > >Roly Sussex >Professor of Applied Language Studies >Department of French, German, Russian, Spanish and Applied Linguistics >School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies >The University of Queensland >Brisbane >Queensland 4072 >AUSTRALIA > >Office: Forgan-Smith Tower 403 >Phone: +61 7 3365 6896 >Fax: +61 7 3365 2798 >Email: sussex at uq.edu.au >Web: http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html >School's website: > http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/ > >Language Talkback ABC radio: >Web: http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/ >Audio: from http://www.abc.net.au/darwin/ > >********************************************************** From self at TOWSE.COM Thu Oct 10 18:12:08 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:12:08 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: sagehen wrote: > > David Bergdahl writes: > >--On Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:52 AM -0400 sagehen wrote: > >> In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > >> people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > >> on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > >> have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > >> A. Murie > >Nope--heard it all my life (I grew up in the 40s and 50s on suburban LI) > I wasn't questioning the viability of "pins & needles" (usually occurring > in reference to restoration of feeling after numbing, for instance), just > this particular context. "pins & needles" to me is the prickly feeling when sensation returns after blood's cut off. Sometimes the feeling is "my foot's asleep" and when it wakes up the feeling isn't pins n' needles but something ticklish. My location: California's Bay Area since 1960 and elsewhere before that. My parents are from the Boston area and I know that I still have some vestiges of language from them. Whether pins n' needles is one is a question. "pins & needles" in an "on pins & needles" sense I might use in an anticipatory sense. You'd wait with bated breath, on pins n' needles, to know whether that cute Donny Pardeaux was _really going to ask you to the Winter Dance. The outcome, in this sense, is in question, but there's no fear involved. Alarm & nervous expectation? That would be filled with alarm and nervous expectation on tenterhooks some other words dealing with at wit's end, anxiety, fear, suspense, stress "on pins & needles" seems much more benign and far less stressed than folks in Montgomery County and surrounding areas must be feeling. Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 10 18:16:37 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:16:37 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: Speaking as one of them: We are on pins and needles waiting for the arrest of the gunman or gunmen. And we wait in fear, perhaps on tenterhooks, for additional murders. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Towse [mailto:self at TOWSE.COM] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:12 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? "on pins & needles" seems much more benign and far less stressed than folks in Montgomery County and surrounding areas must be feeling. Sal From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 18:17:46 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:17:46 -0400 Subject: Chicken Salad, Chinese Style (1960); Diner (1926) Message-ID: CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 May 1960, pg. 47: CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE Preparation time: About forty minutes. COst per serving: About forty-five cents. 3 cups diced, cooked chicken 1 cup drained, canned bean sprouts 2 ribs celery, diced 1/2 teaspoon salt Pinch of freshly ground black pepper French dressing 3/4 cup mayonnaise Dash of soy sauce Lettuce and olives. 1. Combine the chicken, bean sprouts, celery, salt and pepper and moisten with the French dressing. Chill. 2. Flavor the mayonnaise with soy sauce and mix with the chicken. Pile onto a bed of crisp lettuce and garnish with olives. Yield: Four servings. (The NORTH AMERICA WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database has "chicken salad" from January 1827--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- DINER OED has "diner" from 1935. I looked in the Providence City Directory up to 1924, but didn't find anything. PROVIDENCE: THE SOUTHERN GATEWAY OF NEW ENGLAND COMMEMORATING THE ONE HUNDRED FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY OF THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND May 4, 1926 Historical Publishing Company W. S. SOlomon, Business Manager H. A. Barker, Historical Director (NYPL uses his name in CATNYP--ed.) Pg. 211 ad: LITTLE RHODY DINER Meals That Tempt and Satisfy WARWICK AVENUE At Apponaug Road LAKEWOOD, R. I. (There is a photo. It's not a dining car. It's a diner!--ed.) From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Oct 10 18:22:04 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:22:04 -0700 Subject: Chicken Salad, Chinese Style (1960); Diner (1926) In-Reply-To: <3CF1392F.1330FCED.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Ah, the good old days, when anything involving bean sprouts (canned) or even soy sauce could be called "Chinese style". allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > CHICKEN SALAD, CHINESE STYLE > > From the NEW YORK TIMES, 10 May 1960, pg. 47: ... > 1 cup drained, canned bean sprouts ... > Dash of soy sauce From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 10 18:27:33 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:27:33 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: <20021010.105703.-70221.0.pskuhlman@juno.com> Message-ID: The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, hell, now that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've probably used it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still seems more natural to me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. Tenterhooks, by the way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in a curtain stretcher, to hold material taut. A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 18:32:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:32:58 -0400 Subject: Gnocchi, Presciutto, Caffe latte (1867) Message-ID: ITALY HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS SECOND PART: CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by K. Baedeker Coblenz: Karl Baedeker 1867 Pg. XXVIII: Restaurants (_trattoria_) are chiefly frequented by Italians and travellers unaccompanied by ladies. (...) _Zuppa_, soup. _Consume_, broth or bouillon. _Sante_ or _minestra_, soup with green vegetables and bread. _Gnocchi_, small puddings. _Riso con piselli_, rice-soup with peas. _Risotto_, a species of rice pudding (rich). _Maccaroni al burro_, with butter, _al pomidoro_, with paradise-apples. _Manso_, boiled beef. _Fritti_, fried meat. _Arrosti_, roasted meat. _Bistecca_, beefsteak. _Coscietto_, loin. _Arrosto di vitello_, roast-veal. _Testa di vitell_, calf's head. _Fegato di vitello_, calf's liver. _Braccioletta di vitello_, veal-cutlet. _Costoletta all minuta_, veal-cutlet with calf's ears and truffles. _Potate_, potatoes. Pg. XXIX: _Quaglia_, quail. _Tordo_, field-fare. _Lodola_, lark. _Sfoglia_, a species of sole. _Principi all tavola_, hot relishes. _Funghi_, mushrooms (often too rich). _Presciutto_, ham. _Salami_, sausage. _Pollo, fowl. _Pollastro_, turkey. _Umidi_, meat with sauce. _Stufatino_, ragout. _Erbe_, vegetables. _Cavelofi_, artichokes. _Piselli_, peas. _Lenticchie_, lentils. _Cavoli flori_, cauliflower. _Fave_, beans. _Fagiuolini_, French beans. _Mostardo_, simple mustard. _Senape_, hot mustard. _Ostriche_, oysters (good in winter only). _Giardinetto_, fruit-desert. _Crostata di frutti_, fruit-tart. _Crostata di pasta sfogla_, a species of pastry. _Fragole_, strawberries. _Pera_, pear. _Persiche_, peaches. _Uva_, bunch of grapes. _Limone_, lemon. _Portogallo_, orange. _Finocchio_, root of fennel. _Pane francese_, bread made with yeast (the Italian is made without). _Formaggio_, cheese. _Vino nevo_, red wine; _bianco_, white; _asciutto_, dry, _dolce_, sweet; _nostrale_, table-wine. (...) _Cafe noir (_caffe nero_) is usually drunk (10-20 c. per cup). _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (20 c.); or caffe e latte, i. e. with the milk served separately, may be preferred. _Mischio_ is a mixture of coffee and chocolate (15-20 c.), considered wholesome and nutritious. (...) Ices (_gelato_) or every possible variety are supplied at the cafes (30-90 c. per portion); a half portion (_mezza_) may always be ordered. _Granita_, or half-frozen ice (limonata_, of lemons; _aranciata_, of oranges), is especially in vogue in the afternoon. From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 18:35:08 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:08 -0700 Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any specific name? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 10 18:38:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:38:26 -0400 Subject: semantic evolution of "geek" Message-ID: I received this question. I thought we'd discussed it, but I can't find it in the archives. >>>> I have a Hungarian friend who would like to know how "geek" evolved from its original meaning to the one we normally use today (ie, a computer nerd). I'm clueless...help? <<<< -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 10 18:45:02 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:45:02 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: My mother would have used "Pins and needles" to describe anxiety/eagerness of some anticipated event. I doubt whether she or I would use it in a case as grim as the citation referred to. I doubt that she was on "pins and needles" while nursing her mother in her last illness. My image is not being able to sit still, as if sitting on ps & ns. The ILGWU, if I recall correctly, put on a musical revue in the 30s called "Pins and Needles" that was very successful, though it must have been largely an amateur production. I can look it up, if there is demand. ILGWU = International Ladies Garment Workers Union, by the way. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: sagehen Date: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:27 pm Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? > The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, > hell, now > that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've > probablyused it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still > seems more natural to > me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. > Tenterhooks, by the > way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in > a curtain > stretcher, to hold material taut. > A. Murie > From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 10 18:46:22 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:46:22 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't remmeber the original artist off the top of my head, but the Ramones covered it. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > I don't find the expression odd at all. I know it > as describing some sort of anxiety (would never use > it for the numbness-usage that has been suggested). > So, the usage that was heard on NPR doesn't bother > me at all. However, I think there was a song back > in the 60's that was called "Needles and Pins." > (does anyone know who sang it and what its correct > title is?). But I really have no idea what the > 'needles and pins' in the song are for . The order > of words in the phrase 'pins and needles' now sounds > a little odd to me, since I have heard that song so > many times. I have never heard 'tenterhooks'. > Fritz > Oregon > >>> maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU 10/10/02 08:08AM >>> > From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and > find "on tenterhooks" > odd. I know what the expression means but wouldn't > use it in speech. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > > > In describing the state of alarm & nervous > expectation experienced by > > people in the D.C. area because of the recent > sniper shootings, a reporter > > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins > & needles" where I'd have > > expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this > odd? > > A. Murie > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 10 20:02:29 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:02:29 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know if blending is required to explain this, given that "nother" has been kicking around in the language since Caxton, or before. I don't know how long "whole nother" has been around, though. On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if > syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might > have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + > "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to > "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." > > Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: > new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties > up the game in the late innings). From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 10 23:39:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:39:50 EDT Subject: Cappuccino, Zucchini (1900); Espresso, Biscotti, Cannoli, Amaretti (1930) Message-ID: I didn't have time to go through every single BAEDEKER edition. I'll try to take it up again on Saturday. ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS SECOND PART: CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by K. Baedeker Thirteenth Revised Edition Leipzic: Karl Baedeker 1900 Pg. XXI: _Zucchini_, gherkins. (...) _Fagioli_, French beans. Pg. XXII: _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before being served (30-50 c.; _cappuccino_, or small cup, cheaper): or _caffe e latte_, _i. e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. ("Cappuccino was not there in 1890, but it's here in 1900. I didn't check in between--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ITALY--HANDBOOKS FOR TRAVELLERS THIRD PART: SOUTHERN ITALY AND SICILY by K. Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedeker 1903 Pg. XXII: _Zucchino_, marrow, squash. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CENTRAL ITALY AND ROME by Karl Baedeker Leipzig: Karl Baedker 1909 Pg. XXI: _Zuppa inglese_, a kind of trifle. _Frrittata_, omelette. _Crostata_, fruit with pastry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ROME AND CENTRAL ITALY by K. Baedeker Sixteenth Revised Edition Leipzig: Karl Baedeker 1930 Pg. XXIV: ...it is often prepared in a machine specially (_espresso_) for each customer and is then usually very good. ("Espresso" wasn't there in 1912. It's here in 1930. I'll look in between--ed.) Pg. XXIV: Mozzarella...Proval...Provolone...Pecorino... Pg. XXV: ...biscuits (_biscotti_) and little cakes (_paste_; _maritozzi_ current rolls, _amaretti_ macaroons, _cannoli_ cream rolls)... (Merriam-Webster has 1943 for "cannoli," 1945 for "amaretto" and 1973 for "biscotto"--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 00:07:02 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:07:02 EDT Subject: Maltese Oranges, Jack Robinson (1790); Tutti Frutti, Packed Like Herrings (1837) Message-ID: MALTESE ORANGES A TOUR THROUGH SICILY AND MALTA IN A SERIES OF LETTERS TO WILLIAM BECKFORD, ESQ. FROM P. BRYDONE London: A. Strahan and T. Cadell 1790 VOLUME ONE Pg. 338: The Maltese oranges certainly deserve the character they have of being the finest in the world. (There is a long description here. The revised OED has 1816-1820 for "Maltese red oranges"--ed.) VOLUME TWO Pg. 48: "Very well, neighbour, I only wish I had you on board ship for half an hour, you should have a dozen before you could say Jack Robinson, for all your painted cheeks." (OED has about this time for "Jack Robinson"--ed.) Pg. 76: ...whereas in Italy, they only go to play at cards and eat ices. Pg. 203: It consisted principally of ices, creams, chocolate, sweet-meats, and fruit, of which there was a great variety. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TURKEY, GREECE AND MALTA by Adolphus Slade London: Saunders and Otley 1837 VOLUME ONE (of two) Pg. 7: ...in others, as we have witnessed in the Catherine docks, the passengers are literally packed in the hold like herrings in a barrel. (This is about a decade earlier than I had in my 1999 "packed like herrings/sardines" post--ed.) Pg. 132: Nearly every one seemed anxious to be considered a fit gathering for the next basket of "_tutti frutti_." (OED's first cite is 1834--ed.) (I didn't get to volume two--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 00:18:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:18:10 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: Since Barry forbore to point it out, I thought it might be worth calling attention to the above article (with a title that makes it sound as though "Sloppy" was Billy Joe McAlister's unruly brother) by Andrea Strong in yesterday's Times Living section (10/9, F3). There are all sorts of recipes and origin stories presented, and at least one legitimate-sounding authority (Leonard Zwilling of DARE) is cited, along with some rather speculative-sounding versions of the history, involving Hemingway, Cuba, Key West, and such. As far as approaches to the item itself are concerned, my vote is with either the expensive "Asian-tinged" version (pulled pork in a fiery tomato-based sauces brightened with ginger, garlic, and Vietnamese chili paste, piled onto a scallion bun with fresh mint and cilantro leaves)--sounds great but a very distant cousin of the Joe) or the Cuban Sloppy Jose (not the term the article uses) of ropa vieja (marinated skirt steak with a spicy sauce of tomatoes, garlic, cumin, chilies, etc.). There is, however, a printed recipe for a more traditional Sloppy Joe, with tomato puree, ground beef...and chipotle in adobo. I'm OK with all of these, but then I'm no purist on Sloppy Joes. It's not like messing with egg creams, after all... larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Oct 11 00:08:35 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:08:35 -0500 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: My background, 67 YO Chicago upbringing: Pins and Needles= nervous excitement tenterhooks = nervous suspense I tend to lay the misuse of what were once popular expressions, and even standard english, to the lack of a general education on the part of the users. When I was in grade and high school, english was stressed as part of a general education. I truly believe that people of my age could not have got out of college with out understanding the difference between these two phrases. Perhaps we need a Microsoft Word product that diagrams sentences. It makes me wonder if our schools have become to goal orientated and are emphasising a speciality at all costs over a well rounded education. > > In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by > > people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter > > on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd > > have expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? > > A. Murie > > > > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi > From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 11 00:53:37 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:53:37 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Baker just wrote asking about tenterhooks. In the Mission Mill Museum in Salem, OR there's a very nice multi-story exhibit of wool processing: washing, carding, dyeing, etc. up to the spinning and weaving. On the top floor, around the large room where the spinning wheels live, are long pegs driven into the adze-hewn posts, and those pegs are the tenterhooks. They are used to dry the heavy hanks of washed wool before carding. I think I've heard "tenderhooks" in the expression, an apparent folk etymology that would impute an understandable meaning to _tenter_--although the combination of _tender_ with _hook_ sounds like a stretch to me. Peter R. From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Fri Oct 11 01:11:02 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:11:02 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lifted wholesale from Jesse's answer to this question on his Word of the Day website in 1996: The word "nother," which simply means 'other; different', comes from a misdivision of "an other" or "another. This type of misdivision has several parallels in English. The word "newt" was originally "ewte" in Middle English, but the phrase "an ewte" was changed to "a newt." Similarly, "nickname" was originally "an ekename" ("eke" being an archaic word for 'also' that still pops up from time to time), but was misdivided as "a nekename." In the other direction, "apron" was once "napron," but "a napron" was turned into "an apron." There is evidence for the misdivided "nother" 'other' going back to around 1300. The Oxford English Dictionary describes it as obsolete except in dialectal use, but the set phrase "a whole nother" is common in the United States and has been for at least several decades At 04:02 PM 10/10/02 -0400, you wrote: >I don't know if blending is required to explain this, given that >"nother" has been kicking around in the language since Caxton, or before. >I don't >know how long "whole nother" has been around, though. > >On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > In dealing with odd syntactic constructions I first look to see if > > syntactic blending might provide the answer. Originally there might > > have been sentences of the type "That's another thing entirely" + > > "That's a whole new thing (e.g., to be dealing with)" blending to > > "That's a whole nother thing" and "That's a whole other thing." > > > > Then by extension to baseball: "Wal it's a whole nother [also: > > new] ball game, folks," (not just a grand-slam HR but one that ties > > up the game in the late innings). From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 01:15:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:15:45 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 5:53 PM -0700 10/10/02, Peter Richardson wrote: >I've heard "tenderhooks" in the expression, an apparent folk etymology >that would impute an understandable meaning to _tenter_--although the >combination of _tender_ with _hook_ sounds like a stretch to me. > as in the iron fist in the velvet glove? FWIW, there's a song of the same name (Tenderhook), with lyrics viewable at http://www.stellar.co.nz/song-tenderhook.html. Not that many google hits for "tenderhook" per se, but one that mentions (in a line of poetry) "everyone hanging from a single tenderhook". There are 331 hits for "on tenderhooks" (with quotes incorporated in search), with the usual gentle query "Did you mean _on tenterhooks_?" larry, who doesn't recall his very traditional English grammar school classes spending much time on the difference between "on tenterhooks" and "on pins and needles" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 01:31:37 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:31:37 -0400 Subject: a whole other question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021010210850.00a702f0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: At 9:11 PM -0400 10/10/02, Wendalyn Nichols wrote: >Lifted wholesale from Jesse's answer to this question on his Word of the >Day website in 1996: > >The word "nother," which simply means 'other; different', comes from a >misdivision of "an other" or "another. This type of misdivision has several >parallels in English. The word "newt" was originally "ewte" in Middle >English, but the phrase "an ewte" was changed to "a newt." Similarly, >"nickname" was originally "an ekename" ("eke" being an archaic word for >'also' that still pops up from time to time), but was misdivided as "a >nekename." In the other direction, "apron" was once "napron," but "a >napron" was turned into "an apron." Aha. Great minds thinking alike, I see. To the examples of "metanalysis" or misdivision (I tend to prefer the former term as a bit more morally neutral) that I cited earlier and Jesse cites here, a couple overlapping, one more of interest to the list is the "nonce" of "nonce word", derived from "once". The OED's etymology of "nonce" alludes to "(n)ewt" as the locus classicus--maybe we might call all such metanalysands "salamandronyms". Or not. L From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 11 02:09:14 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:09:14 -0700 Subject: Doozy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone queried me regarding "doozy," wondering if it could be from the Polish "duz`y" or "duz`a," meaning big or large. Spelling and pronunciation are similar, as are the meanings. The early 20th century appearance is consistent with Polish immigration patterns to the US. It's probably just a coincidental similarity, but the query has got me wondering. Has anyone ever examined this possibility? RHHDAS refers to a 1992 Gerald Cohen "Comments on Etymology" article about the word, but of course the brief entry gives no detail about what is contained therein. From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Oct 11 01:20:40 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:20:40 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:18:10 -0400 Laurence Horn > I'm OK with all of these, but then I'm no purist on > Sloppy Joes. It's not like messing with egg creams, after all... Still, there is something culturally offensive about gourmet Sloppy Joes. D From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 02:24:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:24:27 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" Message-ID: Another story where I wasn't interviewed. This is going to happen for the rest of my life. Jean Anderson? What's she done on this term?...If there's a story in the works about "espresso" and "cappuccino"--and there will be--the NEW YORK TIMES will talk to Bozo before it talks to me! I posted the Havana origin of the name "Sloppy Joe" right here. I also posted the first citations of the familiar "Sloppy Joe" sandwich right here. The New Jersey "Sloppy Joe" is a different sandwich. And the NEW YORK TIMES has _already_ done a story on it--on 12 August 1973, pg. 84, "Birthplace of 'Sloppy Joe.'" That story said that NJ's Robert Sweeney made his Havana trip in 1932, not 1934 or 1935. One TIMES story is probably right. Check it out. I have not seen DARE's information, so I can't comment on what Leonard Zwilling has. Andrew Smith is referred to as the editor in chief of the OXFORD ENYCLOPEDIA OF FOOD AND DRINK. A few weeks ago, he was the editor of the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. I thought I was submitting information to the the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD! Didn't this "Ode to Joe" song fellow jump off a bridge? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:29:34 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:29:34 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" In-Reply-To: <631D24CD.72B2B66A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 10:24 PM -0400 10/10/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Another story where I wasn't interviewed. Yup, I noticed > Didn't this "Ode to Joe" song fellow jump off a bridge? As I recall, the narrator was seen throwing a mysterious package into the river the day Bobby Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahachee bridge. Larry From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:47:28 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:47:28 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: >In describing the state of alarm & nervous expectation experienced by >people in the D.C. area because of the recent sniper shootings, a reporter >on NPR this morning used the expression "on pins & needles" where I'd have >expected "on tenterhooks." Anyone else find this odd? No, I would find "on tenterhooks" very odd. What ARE tenterhooks, anyway? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 11 02:58:58 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:58:58 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > The evidence on "pins & needles" seems pretty conclusive and, hell, now >that I've had half a day to think about it, I realize that I've probably >used it in just this way myself. "Tenterhooks" still seems more natural to >me, but clearly that has faded out of common parlance. Tenterhooks, by the >way, are little hooks ranged along the side of a framework, as in a curtain >stretcher, to hold material taut. Thanks. Now - What is a curtain stretcher? What is it used for? Why would one want to stretch a curtain? Bethany From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 11 03:15:16 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:15:16 -0700 Subject: "pins & needles"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me, too! I'm glad to know what "on tenderhooks" means, now. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of A. Maberry > Sent: Thursday, 10 October, 2002 08:09 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? > > > From OR and WA I'd expect "on pins and needles" and find "on > tenterhooks" odd. I know what the expression means but > wouldn't use it in speech. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu From e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 11 03:27:44 2002 From: e.pearsons at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:27:44 -0400 Subject: "pins & needles"? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:45 PM Subject: Re: "pins & needles"? |My image is not being able to sit still, as if sitting on ps & ns. Mine too. For those of you who want an ethnic term, I believe the American/Yiddish equivalent is: to have _shpilkes_, translated by Sol Steinmetz in his _Yiddish and English_ as . . . you've guessed it, 'pins'. Enid From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Oct 11 03:37:54 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:37:54 -0700 Subject: Pelargoniums vs geraniums Message-ID: D: > A koan: If gernaiums are pelargoniums, then what are geraniums? A geranium, I guess. I don't know. . . .and anyway, this is a *language* list, not a botany list! :-) Anne G P.S., maybe somebody else on this list knows what a "real" geranium is????? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Fri Oct 11 04:37:57 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:37:57 -0500 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: "Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: > > The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end > in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end > in -aire). > > Are there more I am missing? And why do those two keep the -aire, when most > others switch to -ary? > > Thanks for any help. > > Kathleen E. Miller > Research Assistant to William Safire > The New York Times Serendipity strikes again. Two weeks ago I bought half a dozen novels by Dick Francis at a garage sale. (I'm recuperating from an accident and need diversion. Although I can receive around 200 channels TV channels via satellite, TV is boring beyond belief.) The novel I read today was "Straight", published in 1989 by G.P. Putnam's Sons. The protagonist, as you might expect in a Dick Francis tale, is a British steeplechase jockey. He inherits his brother's dealership in semi-precious stones and discovers that his late brother had purchased 100 diamonds worth $1,500,000.00 -- but the diamonds are nowhere to be found. Our hero discovers that purchases of that magnitude are likely to be made through a "diamantaire". Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. Begin quote (page 126): " . . . what's a sightholder, and what's a sight?" "You're back to diamonds again!" "Yes. Do you know?" "Of course I do. A sightholder is someone who's permitted to buy rough diamonds from the C.S.O. [INSERT from Mike Salovesh: I couldn't come up with the passage that translates "C.S.O."; it's something like Controlled Sales Organization, controlled by the de Beers quasi-monopoly.] "There aren't so many sightholders, only about a hundred and fifty world-wide, I think. They sell the diamonds then to other people. A sight is what they call the sales C.S.O. holds every five weeks, and a sight-box is a packet of stones they sell, though that's often called a sight too." "Is a sightholder the same as a diamantaire?" I asked. "All sightholders are diamantaires, but all diamantaires are not sightholders. Diamantaires buy from the sightholders, or share in a site, or buy somewhere else, not from de Beers." Ask a simple question, I thought. End quote. Although "diamantaire" in this quote seems to be used as a noun rather than an adjective, my feel for language catches adjectival overtones in its use. The vocabulary is highly specialized, though; to be on the safe side I'd want to check it out with someone who is familiar with this high-level marketing. Francis strikes me as pretty careful to get his background details right. The acknowledgments in his novels usually cite people who appear to be knowledgeable in their fields. [The acknowledgment page in "Straight" says "My thanks especially to JOSEPH and DARLENE ZERGER of ZARLENE IMPORTS, Dealers in semipreciouis stones."] Hope this is of some use. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 06:45:17 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:45:17 EDT Subject: British & Irish Women's Letters and Diaries; Jose Abeal or Garcia? Message-ID: BRITISH & IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES I've been going through the North American version, but there is also a new database of British & Irish Women's Letters and Diaries. I immediately plugged in that Nigella Lawson dish, "Toad-in-the-Hole." Nothing came up! Who's writing these diaries--Bridget Jones? I'm far from exhausting my food queries, but the database results haven't been all that great. The first "macaroni" is in DIARY OF FRANCES BURNEY D'ARBLEY, FEBRUARY 1772. The first "ice cream" is in DIARY OF LADY MARY CAMPBELL COKE, AUGUST 1767. "Iced tea" does not appear at all. The "kebbeh": that I found in Isabel Burton's writings (Richard Burton's wife) is here. Check out the database contents on the web. I'll probably use it later tonight, and let me know if you want anything searched. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JOSE ABEAL OR JOSE GARCIA? That sloppy "Sloppy Joe" article stated that the Havana bar was owned by Jose Garcia. As I posted here, one source it's Jose Abeal. A Google for "Jose Garcia" turns up the Florida Sloppy Joe's web site. A Google for "Jose Abeal" turns up only one hit, but it's a good one, from 1933. Check it out at www.oldcubaart.com/TN-21.htm. See Havana's Sloppy Joe's as it was in its prime! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 11 10:37:52 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 05:37:52 -0500 Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: >At 11:35 AM -0700 10/10/02, James Smith wrote: >What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any >specific name? I believe it had no specific name. It was just played. Gerald Cohen From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 11:06:08 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:06:08 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Multiculturalism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is an antedating I have discovered for "multiculturalism": multiculturalism (OED 1965) 1957 _Hispania_ XL. 349 The key to successful living here, as it is in Switzerland, is multilingualism, which can carry with it rich multiculturalism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 11:49:15 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:49:15 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Narratology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: narratology (OED 1974) 1971 tr. Tzvetan Todorov in _Diacritics_ I. 44 The typological remarks which I have just offered ... pertain less to _poetics_ than to a discipline which seems to me to have a solid claim to the right of existence, and which could be called _narratology_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Oct 11 12:02:40 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:02:40 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher Message-ID: Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the curtains were attached to; after it dried it could be ironed. _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 12:00:39 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:00:39 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Women's Studies" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: women's studies (OED 1972) 1969 _College Composition and Communication_ XX. 265 We urge that CCCC and NCTE work to include preparation for student teachers which will lead to black studies for black students, working class studies for working class students, women's studies, etc. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Oct 11 13:22:12 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:22:12 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire Message-ID: >"Kathleen E. Miller" wrote: >> >> The results of my searches give me only two adjectives in English that end >> in -aire. Doctrinaire and debonnaire/debonaire (which doesn't HAVE to end >> in -aire). >> >> Are there more I am missing? ~~~~~~~ Solitaire can be an adjective, in solitaire cards, or solitaire gems. A. Murie From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 14:35:13 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:35:13 -0400 Subject: "An Ode to Sloppy Joe" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Laurence Horn wrote: #As I recall, the narrator was seen throwing a mysterious package into #the river the day Bobby Joe McAllister jumped off the Tallahachee #bridge. By Joe. The song is by Bobby Gentry, "Ode To Billy Joe". See http://www.swopnet.com/music/ode_to_bj.html Verse 1 ends: Today Billy Joe MacAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge Verse 5 ends: He said he saw a girl that looked a lot like you up on Choctaw Ridge And she and Billy Joe was throwing somethin' off the Tallahatchie Bridge -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 14:38:54 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:38:54 -0400 Subject: Doctrinaire In-Reply-To: <3DA655A5.BEF1CD51@corn.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. "Featherdusts"? -- Mark Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 15:11:22 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:11:22 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher In-Reply-To: <001701c2711e$19a07960$1eb89b3f@db> Message-ID: At 8:02 AM -0400 10/11/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried during which time the curtains were waiting on tenterhooks, but not on pins and needles >it could be ironed. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 11 17:23:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:23:45 -0400 Subject: Downtempo or Chillout Message-ID: DOWNTEMPO OR CHILLOUT From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 11 October 2002, pg. W10, col. 4: _Clubs Go Upscale With "Downtempo"_ (...) However, since the mid-1990s, a new strain of dance music has emerged and it couldn't be more different. It's a lush, cinematic musical style called downtempo or chillout, and its creators dote more on the nuanced sounds of jazz, bossa nova and dub (instrumental) reggae than hip-hop, rock or R&B. (...) (NYC has also celebrated recently a one-year anniversary of "electroclash"--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 11 17:48:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:48:25 -0400 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms In-Reply-To: <000501c2701b$f1868cb0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:27:47 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:27:47 -0500 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms Message-ID: Larry's post reminded me of an article on saw recently in, I think, Missouri Historical Revew about Dizzy Dean's broadcasting career after his playing days. Apparently, there was a campaign organized by St. Louis schoolteachers to ban Dean from the air b/c he was seen as a corrupting influence on young people's language. He was not allowed to broadcast a Cardinals World Series b/c the commissioner thought his usage was not presentable for a national audience. He was a native of Arkansas, the son of a sharecropper if memory serves. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Fri 10/11/2002 12:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: Border States and South-Midlandisms More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:39:10 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:39:10 -0400 Subject: curtain stretcher In-Reply-To: <001701c2711e$19a07960$1eb89b3f@db> Message-ID: Yes, otherwise the drying process would result in an uneven length. It's the same principle behind laying a sweater flat and gently pulling the bottom edge level (not that I ever do this anymore). At 08:02 AM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Lace curtains, after being washed (with Lux at our house), were taken >outside and placed on a wooden frame with metal pins that the edges of the >curtains were attached to; after it dried it could be ironed. >_________________________________ >"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" >--Albert Einstein From mam at THEWORLD.COM Fri Oct 11 18:50:47 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:50:47 -0400 Subject: Featherdust (was Re: Doctrinaire) In-Reply-To: <3DA6EA18.F8F47C95@gwia2.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #Mark A Mandel wrote: #> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: #> #> #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. #> #> "Featherdusts"? #Oops. Sorry: it's an old theater (no, theatre) critic's word. Reference #is to mythical monologue that opens Act 1 Scene 1. Woman in maid's #uniform enters, carrying featherduster. Proceeds to dust furniture. # #MAID: I wonder whether the Missus will get back in time to see Mr. #Junior before he leaves. I know she must be with that sneaky Horace #Smith, even though she said she was going to the Garden Club. I think #the Mister must be getting suspicious, because he's starting to bite his #mustache . . . # #In other words, a scene setting monologue or dialogue that introduces #"facts not (yet) in evidence" so the audience knows what they have to #in order to understand the action. Featherdusting in this sense is #also vital in establishing the scene in science fiction; IIRC, the #term was current among fen and in fanzines way back when. Thanks. I inferred something of the kind. A useful and colorful term, albeit opaque. #I hardly expect you, of all people, to ask "what's a -- better, what are #-- fen?" And I won't, for I needn't. -- Mark M. http://world.std.com/~mam/ From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 11 18:55:53 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:55:53 -0700 Subject: Jazz redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >At 11:35 AM -0700 10/10/02, James Smith wrote: > >What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any > >specific name? > > I believe it had no specific name. It was just played. > > Gerald Cohen ...an echo from, I think, a Pete Seeger banjo instruction album that quotes an "old-time banjo player" as saying: "Notes? Hell, there's no notes on a banjo; you just play it." Peter R. From AnneR at HKUSA.COM Fri Oct 11 22:20:24 2002 From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:20:24 -0500 Subject: Farm gate Message-ID: When we moved to Taos, NM, we built an enclosure made of field fencing topped with wire. Pre-made gates were expensive, so a neighbor told us how to build an "Arkansas gate" exactly as described -- two wire loops attached to the permanent post, one low and one high. The gate post's bottom was inserted into the bottom loop and the top loop was dropped over the top of the gate post, while pressure was applied to the gate to get it close enough to the loop. The gate post could be easily taken out of both loops and the entire gate swung open; for a quick entrance, just the top loop was removed, we stepped through the "V" and re-looped it behind us. Anne >There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 >horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is >attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one >high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have >around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these >are mirrored in America.) > >Roly Sussex From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 00:47:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:47:33 -0400 Subject: Border States and South-Midlandisms In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F99434132@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 1:27 PM -0500 10/11/02, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >Larry's post reminded me of an article on saw recently in, I think, >Missouri Historical Revew about Dizzy Dean's broadcasting career >after his playing days. Apparently, there was a campaign organized >by St. Louis schoolteachers to ban Dean from the air b/c he was seen >as a corrupting influence on young people's language. He was not >allowed to broadcast a Cardinals World Series b/c the commissioner >thought his usage was not presentable for a national audience. He >was a native of Arkansas, the son of a sharecropper if memory serves. > > All true. (Actually I don't know one way or the other about Arkansas and sharecropping, but it seems to fit.) Curiously, though, McCarver's normal reputation and enemies list are diametrically opposed to those of Ol' Diz. While Dizzy Dean (who was of course even more of a Cardinals' hero on the field iin the 30's than McCarver was in the 60's) was beloved for his down-home humor and "fractured English", complete with all sorts of irregular preterits and participles (e.g. slid, slud, slud) and irregular verb agreement, McCarver is perceived as being a pompous, know-it-all, egg-head type who is always being much too informative with his analysis. The fun-poking at his pronunciation (at least on the-A-ter) is thus very much at odds with his image of over-intellectualizing the game. As far as I know he never uses non-standard grammar (not counting phonology). larry From dsgood at VISI.COM Sat Oct 12 06:33:19 2002 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:33:19 -0700 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 2002 to 11 Oct 2002 (#2002-259) In-Reply-To: <20021012040053.34E5349FD@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:50:47 -0400 > From: Mark A Mandel > Subject: Featherdust (was Re: Doctrinaire) > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mike Salovesh wrote: > #> > #> #Here Francis featherdusts the word, and a couple of others. > #> > #> "Featherdusts"? > > #Oops. Sorry: it's an old theater (no, theatre) critic's word. > #Reference is to mythical monologue that opens Act 1 Scene 1. Woman in > #maid's uniform enters, carrying featherduster. Proceeds to dust > #furniture. > # > #MAID: I wonder whether the Missus will get back in time to see Mr. > #Junior before he leaves. I know she must be with that sneaky Horace > #Smith, even though she said she was going to the Garden Club. I think > #the Mister must be getting suspicious, because he's starting to bite > #his mustache . . . > # > #In other words, a scene setting monologue or dialogue that introduces > #"facts not (yet) in evidence" so the audience knows what they have to > #in order to understand the action. Featherdusting in this sense is > #also vital in establishing the scene in science fiction; IIRC, the > #term was current among fen and in fanzines way back when. The term most used in the science fiction community currently for this is "As you know, Bob". The speaker is more likely to be somebody who can't be ordered to shut up than a servant. Example: In Bob Shaw's _The Ragged Astronauts_, the resident bore explains in great detail how fortunate it is that pi exactly equals three. As you know, Mark, the term "science fiction community" generally includes: organized fandom (or fandoms); writers published professionally, and professional editors; semi-professionals; etc. From harview at MONTANA.COM Sat Oct 12 05:08:14 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:08:14 -0600 Subject: Farm gate In-Reply-To: <2E8440B99F0D1B4F9D4F3099A3778FB501295474@exchange4.hkusa.com> Message-ID: Here in Montana ranching country, these are called: gates. Most often, they are constructed from the same horizontal strands of barbed (or "bob") wire from which the fence is made, and also the same type of wooden posts. There is usually a post or two in the middle of the gate if it is of any width at all, and another post at the end which is fastened with the loops (or sometimes a chain) to the gate-post. Often there is a two-foot or so length of post fastened to the gate-post with a length of wire, which one uses as a lever to stretch the gate taut and enable the top loop to be slipped over. I've heard this termed a "granny" or "helper". I suppose there are more colorful words for it. Roly, I'd be interested in hearing some of the 20 A.E. names! Scott Swanson > > >There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 > >horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is > >attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one > >high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have > >around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these > >are mirrored in America.) > > > >Roly Sussex > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Oct 12 17:05:26 2002 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:05:26 -0400 Subject: Farm gate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had these in Minnesota too, but I can't recall a particular name for them besides 'gates'. They were usually short-term fixes, for farm implement access, for example. Steel or wooden gates were permanent. The 'barb(ed)/bob wire' usage interests me. We said 'barb wire', I believe (along the lines of reduced 'ice tea'), but it was always printed 'barbed wire'. Is the 'bob' usage just a matter of r-lessness and respelling, or is there a more complex history for the word? --On Friday, October 11, 2002 11:08 PM -0600 Scott Swanson wrote: > Here in Montana ranching country, these are called: gates. Most often, > they are constructed from the same horizontal strands of barbed (or "bob") > wire from which the fence is made, and also the same type of wooden posts. > There is usually a post or two in the middle of the gate if it is of any > width at all, and another post at the end which is fastened with the loops > (or sometimes a chain) to the gate-post. Often there is a two-foot or so > length of post fastened to the gate-post with a length of wire, which one > uses as a lever to stretch the gate taut and enable the top loop to be > slipped over. I've heard this termed a "granny" or "helper". I suppose > there are more colorful words for it. > > Roly, I'd be interested in hearing some of the 20 A.E. names! > > Scott Swanson > > > >> > There is a type of cheap farm gate which consists of around 3 >> > horizontal strands of wire, and a vertical "dropper" which is >> > attached to the far gate-post with two wire loops, one low and one >> > high. What names are used for this kind of gate in the US? (I have >> > around 20 in Australian English, and am curious to know whether these >> > are mirrored in America.) >> > >> > Roly Sussex >> From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sat Oct 12 19:20:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:20:17 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 2002 to 11 Oct 2002 (#2002-259) In-Reply-To: <3DA75FBF.23999.8853EC@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Dan Goodman wrote: #The term most used in the science fiction community currently for #this is "As you know, Bob". The speaker is more likely to be #somebody who can't be ordered to shut up than a servant. Ah, yes; that I'd heard. -- Mark Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 19:48:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:48:16 -0400 Subject: Capuccino (1896); Zucchino (1899); Alfred's Fettucine (1928); Pizzeria (1925) Message-ID: CAPUCCINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Third Part: Southern Italy and Sicily Twelfth Revised Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1896 Pg. XX: _Zuppa inglese_, a kind of pudding (somewhat in the style of a trifle) (...) _Caffe latte_ is coffee mixed with milk before served (30-35 c.; "_capuccino"", or small cup, cheaper); or _caffe e latte_, _i. e._ with the milk served separately, may be preferred. --------------------------------------------------------------- ZUCCHINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker First Part: Northern Italy Eleventh Remodelled Edition Leipsic: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1899 Pg. XXI: _Zucchino_, marrow, squash. --------------------------------------------------------------- PANINO ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Northern Italy Leizig: Karl Baedker, Publisher 1913 Pg. XXVI: Roll (_panino_)5, with butter (_pane e burro_) 20 c. (One NYC deli/restaurant is now serving "panini" sandwiches and has "New!" on its window ad--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- ALFRED'S FETTUCINE SO YOU'RE GOING TO ROME! by Calara E. Laughlin Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company Copyright, 1925 and 1928 Pg. 351: Most travellers would blush to admit they had been in Rome and had not eaten Alfredo's _fettucine al burro_, a sort of macaroni with butter, which has netted Alfredo both fame and fortune. Alfredo is at 104 Via della Scrofa. (Movie stars Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford supposedly ate at Alfred's and popularized the dish, also in 1928. The NYPL doesn't have the 1925 book. Who has it?--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- PIZZERIA NEW GUIDE TO ROME AND ITS ENVIRONS by A. D. Tani Third Revised Edition Rome: Enrico Verdesi 1925 Pg. 338 ad: _RESTAURANT MODERNO_ CHOICE WINES OF THE ALBAN HILLS NEAPOLITAN "PIZZERIA" From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 19:56:53 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:56:53 -0400 Subject: Capuccino (1896); Zucchino (1899); Alfred's Fettucine (1928); Pizzeria (1925) In-Reply-To: <4929B2AE.2778D200.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:48 PM -0400 10/12/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >PANINO > >ITALY--HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS >by Karl Baedeker >Northern Italy >Leizig: Karl Baedker, Publisher >1913 > >Pg. XXVI: >Roll (_panino_)5, with butter (_pane e burro_) 20 c. > >(One NYC deli/restaurant is now serving "panini" sandwiches and has >"New!" on its window ad--ed.) > I'm sure panini are a lot older than NYC restaurateurs want us to believe, but this 1913 entry doesn't really serve as an antedate. While the term is derived as a diminutive of "pane", the current application to a grilled sandwich with various meats and cheeses inside doesn't apply to a small roll with or without butter. It's really a different beast entirely, as I'm sure the NYC deli owner would be happy to elaborate (along with his/her reason for charging you a lot more than the equivalent of 1/20th of a lira for it) Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 19:59:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:59:38 -0400 Subject: Food in ROME IN 7 DAYS (1923) Message-ID: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS A GUIDE FOR PEOPLE IN A HURRY by Arthur Milton London: Mills & Boon Limited 1923 I have about seven minutes! Pg. 22: _Antipasti Misti._ _Costoletta all Milanese._ _Insalata verde._ _Frutta e formaggio._ In English this is:-- _Mixed hors d'oeuvres._ _Veal cutlet, breadcrumbed and fried in butter._ _Green salad._ _Fruit and Cheese._ There are several kinds of cheese. We chose, for example, "_Bel Paese_"--"Beautiful Country"--a mild yellowish cheese from Lombardy. We might have eaten the slightly pungents "_Pecorino_," made from goats' milk, or the excellent, mild "_Stracchino_." There is also "_Mascarpone_," a great Roman specialty, a kind of cream cheese, which is often served as a dessert with sugar and cinnamon. Pg. 29: _Gniccho di potate._ _Fritto misto di pesce._ _Saltimbocca alla Romana._ _Carciofi alla Giudea._ _Zabaione._ The first dish consists of a kind of small dumplings made of potatoes, which may be served either with a meat sauce (_Salsa di carne_ or _Sugo di carne_) or with butter and cheese (_Con burro e formaggio_). THe mixed fry of small fish included many ofthat great delicacy, tiny devilfish. Alternatively we could have ordered _un pesce alla griglia_--a large, grilled fish. The _Saltimbocca_ is made of small pieces of veal, lightly fried in butter with strips of bacon and sage, prepared so tastily that it is said to "jump into your mouth"--whence the name "salta-in-bocca." The artichokes (_carciofi_) are parboiled and then fried whole in a deep vessel of boiling oil until they are crisp, a Roman-Jewish specialty that far surpasses in my opnion any other method of preparing these vegetables. The _zabaione_ is a concoction of whipped yoke of egg, cream, sugar and a drop of Marsala, and is served warm. In hot weather, however, it may be ordered _gelato_--iced. (Gotta go! Five more days of Italian meals left here!--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 12 22:08:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:08:41 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: <191.bae86f4.2a90af39@aol.com> Message-ID: surrealism (OED 1931) 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, naturalism and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 12 23:58:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:58:29 EDT Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) Message-ID: David Shulman did some work on "Garrison finish." There are over 300 Google hits, but it doesn't seem to be properly recorded. I did some NEW YORK TIMES checking for him. 29 October 1930, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 18 obituary: Edwar H. (Snapper) Garrison, one of the most famous jockeys in turf history, whose name lives in the expression "Garrison finish," died at 8 o'clock yesterday morning at the Swedish Hospital in Brooklyn. (...) The term "Garrison finish" was earned in 1886, when he was riding for James R. Keene in the Eastern Handicap at SHeepshead Bay. Mounted on Dutch Roller, an outsider not considered by the experts, Garrison pushed his mount through from the ruck in a ding-dong finish which swept the crowd off its feet. The label, applied at that time, has remained a by-word at the tracks for that type of close finish. It was typical of his style of racing. Garrison did not like to be in front. He preferred to hang back and come through in the stretch with a breath-taking finish. (...) 8 June 1893, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3: _LOST IN THE LAST INNING_ _THE GIANTS FAILED TO WIN_ _FROM THE PITTSBURGS._ (....) At the end of the eighth inning yesterday the score between the New-York and Pittsburg nines was even and every enthusiast looked for the Giants to make one of their Garrison finishes. But they didn't. On the contrary, the big Giants pulled up, so to speak, and allowed the youths from Allegheny to get the rail and win hands down. (1893 is the earliest cite for the term on the database--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 00:43:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:43:08 EDT Subject: Panini Sandwich (1976) Message-ID: The first "panini sandwich" in the NEW YORK TIMES is...1976! This, in a city with lots of Italians, and even a Little Italy. There were only three hits ("panini" and "sandwich") in the "Before 1986" database, but there are over 35 hits after that. Here are a few of them. 7 October 1976, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 77: The menu will offer stylish Italianate salads and panini sandwiches... (Caffe Orsini on 56th Street--ed.) 14 April 1982, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8 Q&A: A. (...) Speaking of Italian foods, many readers wrote in about an earlier reference to "panini." I stated that the only recipe for panini that I could uncover in my research was for panini di pasqua, or Easter breads. Panini, I was told, is simply the plural of the Italian panino, an overall word for ro lls. One reader wrote that "the sandwiches you get on small rolls in cafes in Italy are 'panini imbotiti'--stuffed rolls." 9 September 1984, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX6: ..., soups, panini (tiny sandwiches filled with Cipriani favorites such as Carpaccio, chicken salad and spectacular prosciutto). (At Harry's Bar in Venice--ed.) 10 February 1999, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. F9 The panini are particularly good, with combinations like cacciatorini, an earthy dried sausage, with goat cheese and tapenade; coppa ham with hot peppers and arugula, and roast chicken with tomatoes and Asiago cheese. The press, the culinary equivalent of a dry cleaner's press, gives the ciabata an irresistible griddled texture and makes each sandwich a compact package, which I prefer to the typical overstuffed sandwich. (At 'ino, 21 Bedford Street, near Downing Street, Greenwich Village--ed.) 15 September 1999, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. F2: _Panini With A Difference,_ _Once Seen Only in Milan_ A New York branch of a legendary Italian sandwich shop has opened on the Upper East SIde. Via Quadronno, 25 East 73d Street, is patterned on the original paninoteca that was started 30 years ago on Via Quadronno in Milan and attracted cutting-edge tastemakers despite an out-of-the-way location. It was such a money maker that the owner, Hans Pauli, wound up buying Sant'Ambroeus in Milan and opening Sant'Ambroeus branches in New York and Southampton, N.Y. Now, he has introduced his heated Italian sandwiches to New York. Unlike most of the panini sold around the city, which are made on soft rolls, Via Quadronno's come on rustic bread, similar to ciabata, making them more of a meal. There are more than 30 varieties, from $5.50 to $13.50, including some open-face tartines. The panini range from simple prosciutto to more inventive combinations like Non Ti Scordar di Me (Forget Me Not); Brie, speck (like Canadian bacon) and pate. ("Panini sandwich" has about 10,000 Google hits--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 02:10:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:10:29 EDT Subject: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS (1923) (continued) Message-ID: ROME IN SEVEN DAYS: A GUIDE FOR PEOPLE IN A HURRY by Arthur Milton London: Mills & Boon Limited 1923 The NYPL book box said "poor condition," but it was in better shape than most non-boxed books. Fortunately, I was able to copy it. "Saltimbocca" was in the prior post. OED and Merriam-Webster both have 1937. Pg. 44: I sipped my vermouth and, my uncle, at my advice, tried an _Americano_, an excellent aperitif. Pg. 44: _Mozzarella in carrozza._ _Ossobuco._ _Insalata di radicchio._ _Torta al cioccolato._ which is, first, a soft white Neapolitan cheese, melted and toasted--a kind of Italian"Welsh Rarebit"; then, a marrow-bone, a Milanese dish, excellent with spaghetti; the salad was made of a kind of dandelion, pleasantly bitter; the sweet was a chocolate cake. Pg. 51: _Pasta asciutta._ _Triglie._ _Pollo alla cacciatora._ _Torta._ _Ananas al maraschino._ _Pasta asciutta_ means any kind of spaghetti or macaroni. It can be served with tomato sauce (_Con salsa di pomodoro_) or with meat sauce (_Al sugo di carne_) or with chicken liver, etc. (_Alla Finanziera_ or _con rigaglie di pollo_). It may be eaten with just butter and cheese, and it is excellent with anchovies (_Con salsa di acciughe_). The fish are small mullets, and may be eaten fried (_fritte_) or in a ragout with tomato sauce and garlic (_allas Livornese_). Pg. 52: The chicken is cooked with a rich wine and tomato gravy. _Torta_ is just cake, and as most restaurants have several kinds ready, it is best to ask to see them (_Ci faccia vedere le torte_) and then to choose what one prefers. The pineapple with maraschino sauce is good with sponge-cake (_Pan di Spagna_). Pg. 68: _Asparagi colle uova._ _Scaloppi di vitella al Madera._ _Puree di mele alla Chantilly,_ a simple meal consisting of: Asparagus with fried eggs. Veal escalope with wine sauce. Stewed apples with whipped cream. Pg. 73: _Prosciutto e melone._ _Pollo alla Romana._ _Asparagi alla Parmigiana._ _Macedonia di frutta con panna._ _Frutta secca._ The first item is ham with melon. When someone asks for _prosciutto_, one is served with smoked ham; _prosciutto cotto_ is boiled ham. This is, of course, served cold. The second course is a specialty of this restaurant, and excellent it is. It is a stewed chicken with sweetish peppers (_Peperoni_) and other tasty trimmings. Pg. 74: The asparagus with parmesan cheese needs no comment, nor the mixed, sliced fruits with whipped cream. The "dry fruit" is usually nuts (_Noci_), dried figs (_Fighi secchi_) and dates (_Datteri_). Pg. 78: _Ravioli._ _Fegatini alla salvia._ _Zucchette fritte._ _Involtini di uva cotta al forno._ _Ricotta._ The first is squares of dough, of the macaroni type, stuffed with meat and served with a meat sauce. The _fegatini_ are chicken livers lightly fried in butter with sage leaves. Next come small fried pumpkins, which could be eaten also, not fried, but _al burro_--stewed with butter; _ripiene_--stuffed with meat; or, as _una frittata con zucchette_, in an omelette. The _Involtini di uva_ was a delightful Sicilian delicacy--raisins wrapped in vine-leaves and then baked. The _Ricotta_ is a kind of cream cheese. Pg. 83: We sat for a time on the rim of the basin, sprayed by the foam of the (Trevi--ed.) fountain, and then I led my relatives across the little square into an excellent restaurant I had discovered there, known to Roman connoisseurs as the "_Neapolitan_" restaurant. Here I ordered:-- _Pizza._ _Uccelletti allo spiedo._ _Patate fritte._ _Puree di marrons con panna._ _Pizza_ is a Neapolitan specialty, consisting (Pg. 84--ed.) of a kind of pancake with cheese or tomatoes, shellfish and onions. My aunt did not care for the look of it--for which my uncle rebuked her--and ordered instead _Ministra di Vongole_, a shell-fish soup, much prized at Naples. We could, of course, have started with spaghetti, since the Neapolitans are famous for their macaroni dishes, one of the best of which is _Spaghetti colle vongole al pomidoro_--spaghetti with shell-fish and tomatoes. The _Ucceletti_ proved to be small birds roasted on a spit with sage leaves; and I ordered some _Polenta_, a kind of meal, to go with them, as well as the fried potatoes. The chestnut puree with whipped cream is, of course, a winter dish. In the same place in the summer I should recommend _fraises Melba_--in Italian, _Fragole Melba_; or just _Panna con cialdoni_--whipped cream and biscuits; or _Cassata alla siciliana_--a mixed ice cream with candied fruit in it; or _Granita di caffe_--iced coffee with whipped cream. Pg. 96: _Zuppa di pesce._ _Sogliole fritte._ _Asparagi selvatici._ _Frutta cotta._ The first is fish-soup, with many small devil-fish in it; then came soles; next, (Pg. 97--ed.) some excellent wild asparagus; and stewed fruit. And, as a matter of course, we had more of the excellent _Carciofi alla Guidea_, the artichokes prepared in the Jewish manner, because this place is their real home. Pg. 97: After the hors d'oeuvres (_antipasti misti_) I offered my relatives the choise of two soups (Pg. 98--ed.) --_Zuppa Pavese_ (a clear soup with a poached egg in it) and _Riso e verdura_ (a rice soup with vegetables). As an entree suggested one of the following dishes:-- _Tortino di carciofi_ (artichokes and egg). _Pasticcio di macaroni_ (macaroni pie). _Risotto con fegatini_ (rice with chicken liver). For our roast, we had _Arrosto di abbachio con piselli_, which is roast lamb (always excellent in Rome) with peas. The sweet was _Omelette dolce_ (Sweet omelette); and we finished up with fennel and fruit (_Finocchio e frutta_). Pg. 104: _Gnocchi di semolina alla Romana._ _Fritto di calamaretti con patate._ _Pollo allo spiedo._ _Fromaggio gorgonzola._ The first course consisted of dumplings of semolina baked with Parmesan cheese; the second of fried devil-fish and potatoes; the third, of chicken cooked on a spit; and the last was, of course, gorgonzola cheese. Pg. 107: After tea (THE WHOLE BOOK, THEY HAVE _TEA_! NO _ESPRESSO_?--ed.)...were we ordered, first, _minestrone_--Italian vegetable soup, with macaroni or rice and beans; it is served cold in the summer (_minestron efreddo_)--following this up with _funghi trifolati_, stewed mushrooms--which also we could have had fried (_funghi fritti_) or with rice (_risotto coi funghi_). We now took our choice of _arrosto di vitella con patate_ (roast veal with potatoes), _rognoni_ al madera_ (kidneys with wine sauce), _animelle al vino bianco_ (sweetbreads with white wine) or _animelle al burro bruciato_ (the same with burnt butter), and _piccione arrosto con insalata cotta_ (roast pigeon with a salad of cold boiled greens). My aunt chose the last, with a beetroot salad (_barbabietole in insalata_). Pg. 109: _Spaghetti con sardine._ _Fritto misto all' Italiana._ _Insalata verde._ Pg. 110: This was macaroni with sardines, a mixed fry, and green salad; and we finished the meal with cheese and fruit. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 02:46:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:46:08 EDT Subject: City of Puppy Dogs and Sausages (1843); Peperoni (1903) Message-ID: CITY OF PUPPY DOGS AND SAUSAGES HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS IN CENTRAL ITALY London: John Murray and Son 1843 Pg. 69: The _mortadella_, everywhere known as the Bologna sausage, still keeps up its reputation, and the _cervellato_, or pudding of raisinns and fine kernels, a favourite dish at the table-d'hotes, is claimed as peculiar to the city. Mr. Beckford has designated Bologna as "a city of puppy dogs and sausages." The dogs of Bologna, so celebrated in the middle ages, which still figure in the city arms, and are alluded to in the epitaph of King Enzius in the church of S. Domenico, were worthy of more respect than is implied in the flippant remark: they have unfortunately disappeared, and no trace of their ancient breed can now be discovered. (The dogs have all disappeared, and now they have sausages? Hm...--ed.) Pg. 249: _Trattorie._ Pg. 250: ...trattoria. Pg. 250: ...Falcone, near the Pantheon, celebrated for the national dishes of _trippa_ and _testicciuola_ (lamb's brains fried)... Pg. 250: _Cafes._ Nazari, in the Piazza di Spagna, by far the best in Rome, famous for its chocolate and _poncio spongato_, with an excellent confectioner's shop adjoining... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PEPERONI Merriam-Webster has 1921 for "pepperoni." OED has 1934. I had posted a NEW YORK TRIBUNE citation from December 1903. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 7 June 1903, pg. 28: _ITALIAN HOUSEWIVES' DISHES_ _Many Uses to Which "A Few Garlics" Are Put by Women of the Mulberry Street Colony--Many Other Stuffings Which Are Popular Among Foreigners._ (...) Roast peppers, "Peperoni arrostiti," are also imported from Italy in cans, 20 cents a can for the best. They come in red and yellow... (...) The largest size, commonly used for the dish described, is "macaroni di zita," down on Mulberry Street, which is dialect for "bride macaroni." Mezzani and spaghetti come next. "Lingua di passi," "sparrows' tongues," are flat like noodles, and "l'assagne" are long ribbons which one sees hung in front of the little macaroni factories of the quarter to dry, peacefully absorbing the dust of the street in the process. Then there are pastina, little grains like barley, and spaghettini, long and fine, like hay, which are used in soup. All sorts of fancy shapes come from Italy, curly, striped, or in rings. One kind, shaped like little cups or scoops, they irreverently dub "priests' ears." The imported macaroni ranges from 7 cents a pound up to 15 for the fancy varieties. (...) The street dainty called "ginney beans" by the New York gamin, is known as "lupini" to the Italians. The beans are boiled, kept in water for two or three days, and sold from the pushcarts of the quarter for a penny a glass. "Ceci," "potch pease," or "chick peas." are roasted in a pan of sand in the oven, and sold at a penny for a much smaller glassful. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 06:19:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:19:36 EDT Subject: Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf (FORWARD's Philologus, 10-4-02) Message-ID: "Philologus" writes a really wonderful column every week for the FORWARD (formerly, the JEWISH DAILY FORWARD). David Shulman told me that this week's column discussed "panini" and "ciabatta." Read the whole thing (http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.20.04/arts4.html) for the "Pas Yisrael Parve" part, but here's the "ciabatta" part > ON THE SUBJECT OF SLIPPERS (you'll see the connection in a minute), a friend > has sent me a label taken from a loaf of bread bought in a New York City > grocery and baked by Fairway Bakery. It says, above the list of ingredients > and the price: "Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf." > (...) > And now for the slippers. "Slipper" is the base meaning of the Italian word > ciabatta, the current fad bread in New York that is widely used for panini, > the machine-pressed sandwiches that are currently in vogue too. The > ciabatta is called that because of its shape, which is long, low and > flattened in the middle, just like a beat-up old house shoe. > > This homey word may lead you to think that, like cappelletti, the "little > hats" of pasta filled with meat that are a traditional Italian dish, or > vermicelli, the angel-hair pasta that literally means "little worms," the > ciabatta is an age-old Italian bread, one of the dozens of regional loaves > that are baked by Italians to this day. Prepare yourself for a surprise. > The ciabatta is about as traditional as the Pas Yisrael label. It was > invented in 1982, in the northern Italian town of Adria, by a retired > racing car driver named Arnaldo Cavallari, who came from a family of flour > millers. Mr. Cavallari ? the secret of whose success was a moist dough that > contrasts with the drier dough of standard Italian bread, or of the French > baguette, and that as a result lasts much longer in the pantry ?named his > product ciabatta precisely because he wished to give it the patina of > tradition and succeeded so well that today it represents for many people > the epitome of the Italian kitchen. > > It is amusing to find "Pas Yisrael" and "ciabatta" together in this way. > For one thing, it is an illustration of the amazing fusion of cultures that > goes on all the time in America: Here is the ultra-Orthodox community, the > most isolationist of all Jewish groups, adopting and "Judaizing" a > fashionable Italian bread a few scant years after its appearance. And for > another thing, it is a witness to our craving, in an age in which things > our constantly changing, for the signs of tradition. Both the "Pas Yisrael" > label and the word "ciabatta" suggest something that is old and backed by > the religious and culinary authority of the past. It's just an illusion. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 06:23:21 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 02:23:21 EDT Subject: Pas Yisrael Parve: Ciabatta Loaf (FORWARD's Philologus, 10-4-02) Message-ID: Oops. This is why I hate typing long web addresses. Make that:: http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.10.04/arts4.html From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 17:56:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:56:38 EDT Subject: Chat room Message-ID: According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". - Jim Landau (who thought he had joined a mailing list) From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Oct 13 19:06:34 2002 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:06:34 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1931? '28? Let's crank it all the way back to 1917, May 11, 1917: From Francis Steegmuller's excellent biography Cocteau: "After attending some of the Paris rehearsals of Parade (a drawing by Larionov, shows him sitting in the theater beside Diaghilev), Apollonaire wrote his note, which appeared in the newspaper "Excelsior" for May 11 [1917], and then, a week later, in the the ballet program itself. That program note on Parade has become famous because in it the word "surrealiste" is used for the first time." Here's the actual quote from the "Excelsior" article: "This new union -- for up until now stage sets and costumes on the one hand and choreography on the other were only superficially linked -- has given rise in Parade to a kind of 'sur-realisme'." The ballet Parade was a thoroughly modern multi-media Cubist extravaganza, suitably scandalous to Parisian audiences, that featured decor and costumes by Picasso, music by Satie, choreography by Massine, and a libretto by Jean Cocteau. On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 06:08 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > surrealism (OED 1931) > > 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, > naturalism > and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. > > > Fred Shapiro > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF > QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu > http://quotationdictionary.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Oct 13 19:27:09 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:27:09 -0500 Subject: "crunchy" Message-ID: I have just boldly gone to a new (for me) universe: National Review Online. The URL is http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/2002_10_06_corner-archive.asp#85547719 where you'll find references to "crunchy conservatives". The word "crunchy" in this sense is new to me, but then I'm just a PH.uddy D.uddy mired in the past. . . NOT as a conservative, however, crunchy or not. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Here's one relevant section out of many: > CRUNCHY, PART IV: [Rod Dreher] Perhaps I've created part of the confusion by using the word "crunchy." If I had known that so many conservatives would sese themselves in my essays, I would have found a better term (and please readers, send in your suggestions). I thought that I and a few of my friends were just eccentric right-wingers; I had no idea so many people shared our sensibilities. "Crunchy" is the slang term used to describe people whose tastes in food and fashion run toward the stripped-down, the "natural" (e.g., "Look at that girl with no make-up; is she crunchy, or what?"). There's a lot of that among crunchy cons, but it really is about their ideas, and how they've implemented those ideas into their lifestyle. The only nod my own wardrobe makes toward crunchiness is the Birkenstocks; my hair is shorter than yours, Jonah. "Crunchy" came into it as a descriptive term only because I wanted to highlight the novelty that there are conservatives whose counter! cultural conservative (traditionalist?) beliefs cause them to rub shoulders at times with leftists outside the liberal mainstream. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 19:38:08 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:38:08 EDT Subject: Farm Gate; Yankees & NYC Misc. Message-ID: FARM GATE I thought this was like Watergate from the topic title, but no. The book by Baxter Black, HORSESHOES, COWSOCKS & DUCK FEET (NY: Crown Publishers, 2002) has a glossary at the end. Black (of NPR) has written many other books from his columns, and perhaps they also have glossaries. Pg. 256: FENCE STAY: a four-foot piece of twisted wire that keeps barbwire from saggin' between posts. You may also see stays made from Ocarillo skeletons, straight sticks, pieces of bedspring or the occasional car axle. Pg. 257: HOG WIRE: or sheep wire, depending on your part of the country. It is wovewn fencing with a vertical and horiztonal wire crossing at intervals like a tic-tac-toe board. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- YANKEES & NYC MISC. YANKEES--The curse worked! Wha hoppen? From A YANKEE CENTURY (NY: Berkley Books, 2002) by Harvey Frommer, pg. 398: THEY WERE CALLED "Yankees" first by sportswriters Mark Roth of the New York Globe and Sam Crane of the New York Journal. The name first appeared in print on June 21, 1904, in the Boston Herald. (Frommer--who also wrote a NEW YORK YANKEE ENCYCLOPEDIA--mixes several myths. Roth and Crane first called them the Yankees, but the name first appeared in a Boston newspaper? As I said, it first appeared in the NEW YORK EVENING JOURNAL, April 7, 1904. A huge headline that month was YANKEES BEAT BOSTON. I have two fates--people either steal my work, or they get the stuff wrong--ed.) NEW YORK DATE BOOK 2003--Sold near the counters at Barnes & Noble. A big red apple is on the cover. Most of the pages are blank, but there's a little info box on why New York City is called the Big Apple. It's wrong, of course. O.T. MY NYC JOB--It's no secret that NYC is going through hard times, financial and otherwise. It's no secret that transit fines will go up to $2 from $1.50. It's no secret that property taxes may increase by 20%. It's no secret that all of this bad news will be announced after the November gubernatorial election. And it's no secret that many people--probably me--will not take it any more, and will simply choose to leave. Parking fines were the first to go up--they doubled. I'm a parking administrative law judge; the amount of the fine is none of my business. What angers me is when the New York City breaks the law and lies. Department of Finance spokesman Sam Miller said that fines hadn't been increased since 1975 (he told Newsday 1978). This is a lie. The city well knows that the top fine of $40 was increased to $55, and now $105. I told both the AP and Newsday. No correction was made. AP told me nine days ago it was checking. Hey AP, there are old online AP stories about this! I cannot tolerate lying. I have said that an illegal "mitigation memo" was circulated. Some judges leaked this to Newsday, where a story recently appeared. (See also below.) We are "independent contractors"--we get _no_ benefits because we're "independent." Yet the same Sam Miller says it's just fine if the city orders the "independent" judges what to do. Replace me with a "robot." I'm outta here. I'll get to this in a little more detail in a Malta food post (I leave in 24 hours). This city has demoralized an honest man. Mayor Defends Higher Parking Fines Oct 11, 2002 By Dan Janison STAFF WRITER October 11, 2002 Mayor Michael Bloomberg on Friday defended higher parking fines -- and a new policy of lesser breaks for violators with excuses -- as a way to unclog traffic. ?If the fine is there, people should pay it,? he said. ?The only way you get people not to double-park is to fine them. And if the fine isn?t meaningful they?ll say, hey, it?s cheaper than going to a garage.? As reported Friday in Newsday, the Department of Finance has ordered parking judges to refrain from slashing fines for many violations to less than half based on motorists? explanations. For some categories, such as ?No Standing? and handicapped zones, they are instructed not to mitigate the penalties. With fines recently doubled to maximum levels of $85 and $105 including a surcharge, some administrative law judges see the policy change as compromising due process for motorists. But Finance Department spokesman Sam Miller said the goal is to ensure that judges issue penalties that do not vary widely given the same set of facts. ?We do not want an administrative law judge to reduce somebody?s fine by about $60 because they?re wearing a nice suit, and somebody else, who?s wearing a T shirt and jeans, gets it reduced by $30,? Miller said. ?These are serious violations.? Bloomberg made the remarks during his weekly radio appearance on the John Gambling show on WABC (770-AM) when a caller identified as Kathy complained that the higher fines amounted to a new tax on small business. ?Trucks aren?t a nuisance to the city. They?re a vital part of delivering services ot the city?s mega-buildings,? she said. ?It?s easy to say, OK you can?t park here. But where can you park?? Other than to say that most of the fines are issued against cars, not trucks, Bloomberg ducked the question. Gambling said she ?has a point -- you?ve got to service the buildings? before taking another call. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 13 20:11:38 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:11:38 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > 1931? '28? Let's crank it all the way back to 1917, May 11, 1917: Perhaps Barry Popik's postings, which use the word "antedating" (actually, he says "antedate") in an idiosyncratic fashion referring to the first use of a word or its cognates or etymons in any language, have spread confusion among other people on this list. When I posted an antedating of "surrealism," I meant the English word, not the French word. This is usually what one means by an "antedating." Nevertheless, Gareth's information is an improvement on what the OED says about the French word. I wonder what _Tresor de la langue francaise_ has to say. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 13 22:00:47 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:00:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Antedating of "Narratology" Message-ID: From my expert witness on narratology. I suspect Fred's cite will stand up for English. Larry --- begin forwarded text >Gerry, > >Do you have an antedate (in an English language cite prior to 1971) >for "narratology" for the OED? Anything in any of your published >work, for example? Here's your chance (or one of them) to break into >the OED! > >larry To: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: Antedating of "Narratology" Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:33:43 EDT From: Gerald Prince Larry, Alas, no! (though I did coin a couple of words! but they will have to wait, I imagine). Todorov coined the term in French, as you probably know. I think the word "narratologie" first appeared in print in 1969 Gerry >--- begin forwarded text > >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:49:15 -0400 >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: Fred Shapiro >Subject: Antedating of "Narratology" > >narratology (OED 1974) > >1971 tr. Tzvetan Todorov in _Diacritics_ I. 44 The typological remarks >which I have just offered ... pertain less to _poetics_ than to a >discipline which seems to me to have a solid claim to the right of >existence, and which could be called _narratology_. > > >Fred Shapiro > > >--- end forwarded text > > --- end forwarded text From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 13 22:03:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:03:19 -0400 Subject: "my next of the woods" Message-ID: This twist on the idiom "neck of the woods" appeared on the newsgroups alt.cellular.verizon and alt.cellular.nokia . Despite an "organization" header in the ru (Russia) top-level domain, the poster has an attbi.com email address and seems to write native, or at least fluent and generally idiomatic, English. >>>>> Not in my next of the woods (region). The only official requirement is a tri-mode phone. Nothing else... - trepain <<<<< -- Mark A. Mandel From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Sun Oct 13 22:42:12 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:42:12 -0400 Subject: www.urbandictionary.com Message-ID: Found this while googling for definitions to some hax0r terms. http://www.urbandictionary.com/ Design motif looks identical to dictionary.com - though I get a sneaking suspicion they ain't part of that site... like other online slang lexicons, the content here is at least partially user-driven (Add Your Own Word link). (c) date makes it look like this one's been around in some form since 1999.... From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Oct 13 22:39:42 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:39:42 -0400 Subject: Chat room Message-ID: Jim Landau writes, >> According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 >> footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". A *lot* of people don't know the difference. Sshhhh. Let's not tell them. --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 13 23:07:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" Message-ID: Leave me out of this! I have nothing to do with "surrealism"! You want "surrealism," try this: Copyright 2002 Nationwide News Pty Limited The Daily Telegraph(Sydney) October 14, 2002, Monday SECTION: LOCAL-COLUMN- CENTRAL COAST EXTRA; Pg. 7 LENGTH: 72 words HEADLINE: Food Extra SOURCE: MATP BODY: * THE first hot dog was invented by German butcher Johann Geurghehner, who developed a sausage that resembled a hunting dog which he called the "dachshund sausage". In the 1860s, German immigrants in New York began selling "dachshund sausages" in buns with mustard and sauerkraut. The snack was nicknamed a "hot dog" by cartoonist Thomas Dorgan -- he was unable to spell the word "dachshund", so coined the new phrase instead. LOAD-DATE: October 13, 2002 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 00:59:33 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:59:33 -0400 Subject: Irish Stew (1800); Soup Kitchen (1831); Noodles (1770); Pins & Needles (1727) Message-ID: I searched for "fish and chips" in the BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database. There was no hit! There are still some gems to be found. The database is NOT available in the NYPL (which has the companion NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database), but it's here at NYU. --------------------------------------------------------------- IRISH STEW OED has 1814 for "Irish stew." It's on the database, DIARY OF MELESINO CHENEVIX ST. GEORGE TRENCH, October 1800, pg. 112: Lady Hamilton began bawling for an Irish stew, and her old mother set about washing the potatoes, which she did as cleverly as possible. --------------------------------------------------------------- SOUP KITCHEN OED has 1839 for "soup kitchen." It's on the database, DIARY OF LADY SYDNEY OWENSON MORGAN, October 1831, pg. 326: ...he kept crying, "Why don't you eat; pray eat," as if he was feeding the poor Irish at a soup kitchen. --------------------------------------------------------------- NOODLES OED has the same citation as this database for "A noodle soup--this I begged to be explained, & was told it was made only of veal with lumps of bread boiled in it." It's here as DIARY OF LADY MARY CAMPBELL COKE, June 1770. OED has 1779? --------------------------------------------------------------- PINS AND NEEDLES The first citation is LETTER FROM LADY MARY PIERREPONT WORTLEY MONTAGU TO FRANCES PIERREPONT, 1727, pg. 188: These are my present endeavours, and I run about, though I have five thousand pins and needles running into my heart. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 01:11:27 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:11:27 EDT Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/12/2002 7:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM quotes: > The term "Garrison finish" was earned in 1886, when he was riding for > James R. Keene in the Eastern Handicap at SHeepshead Bay. Mounted on Dutch > Roller, an outsider not considered by the experts, Garrison pushed his mount > through from the ruck in a ding-dong finish which swept the crowd off its > feet. The label, applied at that time, has remained a by-word at the tracks > for that type of close finish. This may explain something that has been puzzling me since 1967. In "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" Robert A. Heinlein (in one of the final military sections of the book) describes spaceships as performing "Garrison didos" (I seem to recall the actual wording was "tight Garrison didoes"). OED2 gives "dido" as "caper, prank" and some sort of fast maneuver as the spaceship neared the end of its approach to the Moon would fit the context. Problem solved? - Jim Landau From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Mon Oct 14 02:18:39 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:18:39 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: The juxtaposition of two NYC items in one post from Barry Popik prompted me to a stunning realization. Doesn't it make sense that if "Big Apple" came out of the speech of stable hands, it's a way of saying that NYC is a big horse apple? (For those who never heard of horse apples, that's just a label for horsecrap.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! These are the items I mean: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > NEW YORK DATE BOOK 2003--Sold near the counters at Barnes & Noble. A big red > apple is on the cover. Most of the pages are blank, but there's a little > info box on why New York City is called the Big Apple. It's wrong, of > course. > > O.T. MY NYC JOB--It's no secret that NYC is going through hard times, > financial and otherwise. It's no secret that transit fines will go up to $2 > from $1.50. It's no secret that property taxes may increase by 20%. It's no > secret that all of this bad news will be announced after the November > gubernatorial election. > And it's no secret that many people--probably me--will not take it any > more, and will simply choose to leave. > Parking fines were the first to go up--they doubled. I'm a parking > administrative law judge; the amount of the fine is none of my business. > What angers me is when the New York City breaks the law and lies. > Department of Finance spokesman Sam Miller said that fines hadn't been > increased since 1975 (he told Newsday 1978). This is a lie. The city well > knows that the top fine of $40 was increased to $55, and now $105. I told > both the AP and Newsday. No correction was made. AP told me nine days ago > it was checking. Hey AP, there are old online AP stories about this! I > cannot tolerate lying. > I have said that an illegal "mitigation memo" was circulated. Some judges > leaked this to Newsday, where a story recently appeared. (See also below.) > We are "independent contractors"--we get _no_ benefits because we're > "independent." Yet the same Sam Miller says it's just fine if the city > orders the "independent" judges what to do. > Replace me with a "robot." I'm outta here. > I'll get to this in a little more detail in a Malta food post (I leave in > 24 hours). > This city has demoralized an honest man. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 14 04:21:06 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:21:06 -0700 Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: My mother happened to use this old expression the other day, and then wondered how it could have come to have the meaning it does, which apparently has nothing to do with a dog. Any suggestions? Rudy From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 14 04:24:49 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:24:49 -0700 Subject: Ocotillo Message-ID: Barry's quotation from Black's book about a farm gate included mention of an "ocarillo". I wonder whether this was an inadvertent typo on Barry's part, or whether Black mis-rendered the name "ocotillo", which is the prevalent name around Arizona. In a land where few things grow straight, they are often used for fences, and even precolonially were used for ceilings of houses (a practice the Spanish picked up and continued). Rudy From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 14 04:25:51 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:25:51 -0700 Subject: Garrison Finish (1893) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This may explain something that has been puzzling me since > 1967. In "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" Robert A. Heinlein > (in one of the final military sections of the book) describes > spaceships as performing "Garrison didos" (I seem to recall > the actual wording was "tight Garrison didoes"). OED2 gives > "dido" as "caper, prank" and some sort of fast maneuver as > the spaceship neared the end of its approach to the Moon > would fit the context. > > Problem solved? Good memory. In Chapter 23, there is the line, "They came in on tight Garrison didoes, skimming the peaks; I barely saw the chop-off for Luna City." I wouldn't be so sure that Heinlein's "Garrison" refers to the horse race finish though. He has a habit of using proper names in his writing to give his universe realism. Although, when he does this he tends to use the same names throughout several books (e.g., Forward, Shipstone) and I don't remember another Garrison. Heinlein also uses the word "dido" to refer to a spaceship landing (or making some manuever on final approach or perhaps to a landing beacon the ship deploys) in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, however, and don't remember the exact usage or meaning. All I remember is being puzzled by the term because I had no clue what he was referring to. (The best I could think of was some reference to the Aenied, and I figured that wasn't it.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 05:33:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:33:58 EDT Subject: Ocotillo & Putting on the Dog; Buena Vista Cafe menu (1950?) Message-ID: OCOTILLO---Yes, my "a" looks like "o" and "t" looks like "r." I'm losing my eyesight here. Anyway, I'm leaving the country in 12 hours and I have a lot to do. Sorry for the mistake. PUTTING ON THE DOG--I always confuse with with "try it on the dog." I found a poem about this in the NEW YORK DRAMATIC MIRROR, about 1882. The slang expression started in the theatre in New York, for whatever reason. Is my post in the old archives? BUENA VISTA CAFE MENU (1950?)--I was looking for "Joe's Special" in the Los Angeles Public Library's onlline menu collection, at www.lapl.org. They have a menu from San Francisco's Buena Vista Cafe that I know is not from the "1950." The menu has Kahuna Coffee, Marguerita, and Mai Tai on it. Also: "IRISH COFFEE Introduced to the U.S. at the Buena Vista by Stanton Delaplane." There is a plaque at the Buena Vista about this--the plaque gives a date of 1952! Look at it yourself. Is this a menu from 1950? When is it from? And if I can't trust the LAPL on menu dating, how about that 1920s "cheeseburger"? From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Mon Oct 14 06:21:00 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:21:00 -0400 Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: Rudy Troike >> ...wondered how ["putting on the dog"] could have come to have the >> meaning it does, which apparently has nothing to do with a dog. Any >> suggestions? Only one. The expression--which means pretentiously dressing up or displaying wealth--is an American colloquialism traced by a number of sources to collegiate use in the early 1870s, especially at Yale. But none of the dictionaries I have offers a derivation. The late Bergen Evans, in *Comfortable Words* (Random House, 1962), says that the "most likely explanation" of the phrase, which he defines as "dressing up with unusual splendor," is that: >> ...it was a reference to the high stiff collar (which was called a "dog >> collar") then indispensable to formal wear. Ladies' diamond chokers >> were also called "dog collars" as were the heavily-braided collars of >> officers' uniforms. And since [they] were all...used on highly formal >> occasions...*putting on the dog* would mean preparing for such an >> occasion. >> >> There was a humorous derivative "doggy," meaning spiffy or ornamental. >> [I found this in some other sources, as well.] --Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 06:42:27 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:42:27 EDT Subject: Putting on the dog Message-ID: See the RHHDAS, A-G, pg. 615, "Dog," 6.a. The first citation is 1865. All I could find is my "try it on the dog" in the newer ADS-L archives. That's the theatrical "dog." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 14 11:30:26 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 06:30:26 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: >At 9:18 PM -0500 10/13/02, Mike Salovesh wrote: >The juxtaposition of two NYC items in one post from Barry Popik prompted >me to a stunning realization. Doesn't it make sense that if "Big Apple" >came out of the speech of stable hands, it's a way of saying that NYC is >a big horse apple? (For those who never heard of horse apples, that's >just a label for horsecrap.) No. The New Orleans stable hands clearly regarded "the big apple" (= NYC racetracks) as something highly desirable, the big time in horseracing; There's no pejorative overtone here. Apples were once regarded as something special, and the big red delicious apples were extra special. Gerald Cohen From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Oct 14 11:50:03 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:50:03 -0400 Subject: Chat room Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:39:42 -0400 > From: Dodi Schultz > Subject: Chat room > > Jim Landau writes, > > >> According to American Speech, Volume 77, Number 3 (Fall 2002) page 311 > >> footnote, ADS-L is a "chat room". > > A *lot* of people don't know the difference. > > Sshhhh. Let's not tell them. > > --Dodi Schultz > I find this to be strange that there wasn't care taken to be more precise in this designation. As synchronous (chat room) or 'subchronous' (mailing lists, b-boards) discourse media go, the Internet (which, as I am not writing in German, probably should stop being capitalized) is quickly coming up to speed, and in some aspects surpassing, the facility and popularity of telephone, telegraph, and the USPS. But you knew that already ;) - Drew (who switched to digest to avoid chronic overload) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 15:05:23 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:05:23 EDT Subject: Hey, Waitress! (2002) Message-ID: HEY, WAITRESS! THE USA FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRAY by Alison Owings Berkeley: University of California Press 334 pages, hardcover, $29.95 2002 Unfortunately, this book was light on the slang. No "Adam and Eve on a Raft" is mentioned in the entire book. The back cover has nice blurbs from Anthony Bourdain (KITCHEN CONFIDENTIAL), Barbara Ehrenreich, Susan Brownmiller, and Letitia Baldrige. The book is all interviews. Pages 6-26, "A BRIEF, AND SUBJECTIVE, HISTORY OF WAITRESSING," might have mentioned the waitress slang a LITTLE bit, but no. Pg. 87: In Margie's experience, "Drop me one!" meant that the kitchen should start cooking a chicken-fried steak. "Pig walkin'!" meant putting together a pork barbecue sandwich to go. Her volume asserted its own pronunciations, encompassed in her strong rural Tennessee tones. The word "floor" got two syllables. The word "believe" got one. She referred to her regular customers as her "reggers." Pg. 97: "I call it nit-pit stuff." She does, spelling it out, _n-i-t p-i-t_. Pg. 131: ..the "Bless This Mess" sign... (I'll check the databases next week for this--ed.) Pg. 252: Irena wore a button that read "Tipping is not a city in China." (Another one for the databases, unless Fred wants to beat me to it--ed.) Pg. 269: From her red-lipsticked mouth issue blazing campy, vampy voices and lingo one deduces from context--"doing Bertha" means cleaning, while "'tron," from the non- (Pg. 270--ed.) sexist yet mocking term "waitron," means waitress--for why interrupt the show? (Hey, author! How about giving us some cites for "waitron"?--ed.) Pg. 270: "I started out cleaning the restaurant, not 'tronning." Pg. 273: Child customers, a.k.a. "Bam-Bams," were prey, too. Pg. 288: Staff drinking, she rushed on, involved "torpedoes": taking a coffeepot to the bar, putting a drink inside, and "inhaling" the contents. Pg. 311: "I am ballsy, and I grab guys' balls occasionally. They give me too much trouble, I grab 'em. 'Hey, I got control here.'" She grabs "at _least_ once a night." Some guys like it, she added. "You can feel a little fluffer coming on sometimes." Lucy and Aileen laughed and laughed. "A _fluffer_?" asked Brian, reddening. "A boner." (I EAT AT ALL THE WRONG RESTAURANTS!--ed.) From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 15:18:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:18:07 EDT Subject: Garrison didoes Message-ID: n a message dated 10/14/2002 12:26:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dave at WILTON.NET writes: > In Chapter 23, there is the line, "They came in on tight > Garrison didoes, skimming the peaks; I barely saw the chop-off for Luna > City." > > I wouldn't be so sure that Heinlein's "Garrison" refers to the horse race > finish though. He has a habit of using proper names in his writing to give > his universe realism. Although, when he does this he tends to use the same > names throughout several books (e.g., Forward, Shipstone) and I don't > remember another Garrison. I don't think it's a matter of reusing NAMES. Heinlein was in the habit of reusing universes (that is, the science, politics, geography, etc. that form the background of a story). "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is set in the same universe as a book he wrote years earlier, "The Rolling Stones". (The connection is that both books share a character, named Hazel iirc, who is a grandmother in the earlier book and then is a child in the later one.) Similarly "Stranger In A Strange Land" is in the same universe as "Red Planet"---again, apparently only a matter of economizing by reusing universes. (Then of course there is the "Future History" series, which dominated the first half-decade of Heinlein's writing career, and to which he returned after a gap of three decades). I do not recall the name "Forward" and I only recall "Shipstone" from "Friday." Could you please tell me which books they appeared in? It would be interesting to see if these books are another case of a repeated universe. > Heinlein also uses the word "dido" to refer to a spaceship landing (or > making some manuever on final approach or perhaps to a landing beacon the > ship deploys) in the book "Starship Troopers." My guess is that "dido" is a US Navy or US Naval Academy slang term for a fancy maneuver. (Heinlein was an Annapolis graduate who served several years in the Navy in the 1930's). > in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, No great loss. Actually, I won't say it's a bad book, although it is didactic to the point of tedium. The problem is that, although the book makes some valid points (I'm sure I could find a few if I bothered to reread the book) it espouses a, shall we say, unappetizing philosophy. I do not recommend the book except to people who like to read books with the intent of analyzing the author's philosophy. In other words, Heinlein has written a book that is readable by literary critics and no one else! - Jim Landau From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Oct 14 15:20:42 2002 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:20:42 -0700 Subject: Upping the Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > I wonder what _Tresor de la langue francaise_ has to say. > Tresor de la langue francaise has as the first attested use as: Apollinaire, Tiresias, 1918. (pref. et prol.) L'idealisme vulgaire des dramaturges ... a cherche la vraisemblance dans une couleur locale de convention qui fait pendant au naturalisme en trompe-l'oeil (...) j'ai pense qu'il fallait revenir a la nature meme, mais sans l'imiter a la maniere des photographes. Quand l'homme a voulu imiter la marche, il a cree la roue qui ne ressemble pas a une jambe. Il a fait ainsi du surrealisme sans le savoir. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 15:29:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:29:08 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I don't think it's a matter of reusing NAMES. Heinlein was in the habit of #reusing universes (that is, the science, politics, geography, etc. that form #the background of a story). "Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" is set in the same #universe as a book he wrote years earlier, "The Rolling Stones". (The #connection is that both books share a character, named Hazel iirc, who is a #grandmother in the earlier book and then is a child in the later one.) Hazel Stone. #Similarly "Stranger In A Strange Land" is in the same universe as "Red #Planet"---again, apparently only a matter of economizing by reusing #universes. And with _The Number of the Beast_ &seqq. he combined all his universes, all of everybody else's universe, our actual universe, and all possible and imaginable other universes into a gigantic meta-universe containing every fucking character he ever invented. The adjective is literal, not expletive. #I do not recall the name "Forward" and I only recall "Shipstone" from #"Friday." Could you please tell me which books they appeared in? It would #be interesting to see if these books are another case of a repeated universe. I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't recall offhand (Robert?). #> in the book "Starship Troopers." I can't find my copy of it, # #No great loss. Actually, I won't say it's a bad book, although it is #didactic to the point of tedium. The problem is that, although the book #makes some valid points (I'm sure I could find a few if I bothered to reread #the book) it espouses a, shall we say, unappetizing philosophy. I do not #recommend the book except to people who like to read books with the intent of #analyzing the author's philosophy. In other words, Heinlein has written a #book that is readable by literary critics and no one else! On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on that. Vociferously. I also disagree, but mildly: I don't think it's great, and I don't like the political philosophy and the vast tracts of philosophizing, but it's got good story. -- Mark M. From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 14 16:08:07 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:08:07 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely >a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't >recall offhand (Robert?). I think Niven used Robert Forward's name openly in "The Borderland of Sol" BTW. I don't remember it in Heinlein, but I skipped some of the later and larger works entirely. >Heinlein has written a book that is readable by literary critics and no >one else! > >... but it's got good story. I reread it recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with its movie. Future of languages (from "Starship Troopers"): ---------- Montez (South American trooper): "What did you say?" Rico (Filipino trooper, the protagonist of the novel): "Sorry, Bernardo. Just an old saying in my own language. ...." M.: "But what language was it?" R.: "Tagalog. My native language." M.: "Don't they talk Standard English where you come from?" R.: "Oh, certainly. For business and school and so forth. We just talk the old speech around home a little. Traditions. You know." M.: "Yeah, I know. My folks chatter in Espan~ol the same way." ---------- -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 14 16:19:54 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:19:54 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Surrealism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > surrealism (OED 1931) > > 1928 _Modern Language Notes_ XLIII. 547 Realism and surrealism, naturalism > and idealism, romanticism and classicism are useful words. Here is a still earlier antedating: 1925 _N.Y. Times Book Rev._ 23 Aug. 5 Some of the erstwhile titans have become successful writers in Hungary. They went home imbued with the sacred teachings of surrealism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 16:51:00 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:51:00 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014113639.04a536a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But it was likely #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't #>recall offhand (Robert?). # #I think Niven used Robert Forward's name openly in "The Borderland of Sol" #BTW. Which I have read that Forward did not like at all, because of the character's... character. #I reread it recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with #its movie. A Dutch Alp. -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 14 17:15:32 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:15:32 -0700 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But > it was likely > #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't > #>recall offhand (Robert?). Tuckerization? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 14 18:03:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:03:30 EDT Subject: Maltese food Message-ID: O.T. MALTA I will be in Malta from later today (Monday) until Sunday. For those keeping a scorecard of the past 12 months: Texas, Hawaii, Alaska, New Zealand, China, Korea, Tibet, Mongolia, Galapagos, Ecuador, Cuba, Bahamas, Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Malta, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkey. I cancelled Iran. I was thinking about Bali--people told me that it was the safe part of Indonesia, and was cheap right now. Unlike, say, Tibet, Malta is a place I might want to live. It'll be an EU member in a year. You can travel all over Europe and Africa from there. It's very clear from what I've been through that New York is not my home. I would hate to leave David Shulman. I remember when he went into the hospital a year ago, and was waiting for 20 hours in the emergency room. I wrote to the New York Post about this hospital disgrace, but nothing was printed. Last Friday, the Post published a photo of David Letterman sitting in his car in traffic. Even fans on alt.fan.letterman didn't understand why this was news. That's New York in a nutshell. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MALTESE FOOD LONELY PLANET--MALTA by Neil WIlson Melbourne: Lonely Planet Publications 1st edition--August 2000 Pg. 59 box: _The Fenkata_ A _fenkata_ is a big, communal meal of rabbit, usually eaten in the countryside. Pg. 59: The traditional Maltese snack is the _pastizza_, a small parcel of flaky pastry filled with either ricotta cheese or mushy peas. A couple of Pastizzi make for a tasty--if somewhat high-fat--breakfast or afternoon filler. Another traditional snack, much loved by Maltese children, is _hobz biz-zejt_, slices of bread rubbed with ripe tomatoes and olive oil until they are pink and delicious. (...) _Ftira_ is a bread baked in a flat disc and stuffed with a mixture of tomatoes, olives, capers and anchovies. You will either love or hate _gbejniet_, the small, hard, white cheese traditionally made from unpasteurized sheep's or goat's milk. (...) One of Malta's favourite sweetmeats is _mqaret_, diamond-shaped pastries stuffed with chopped, spiced dates and deep-fried. _Qubbajt_ is Maltese nougat, flavoured with almonds or hazelnuts and traditionally sold on festa days. Pg. 60: _Soppa tal armla_ The so-called "widow's soup" is traditionally made only with ingredients that are either green or white. Basically a vegetable soup, it contains cauliflower, spinach, endive, and peas, poured over a poached egg, a _gbejniet_ and a lump of ricotta cheese. _Minestra_ Minestra is a thick soup of tomatoes, beans, pasta and vegetables, similar to Italian minestrone. _Timpana_ A rich pie filled with macaroni, cheese, egg, minced beef, tomato, garlic and onion, timpana is a Sicilian dish not dissimilar to Greek _Pastitsio_. _Aljotta_ This is a delicious fish soup made with tomato, rice and lots and lots of garlic. _Ravjuletti_ This is a Maltese veriety of ravioli (pasta pouches filled with ricotta, parmesan and parsley). _Bragioli_ These are prepared by wrapping a thin slice of beef around a stuffing of breadcrumbs, chopped bacon, hard-boiled egg and parsley, then braising these "beef olives" in a red wine sauce. _Fenek_ Fenek--rabbit--is _the_ favourite Maltese dish, whether fried in olive oil, roasted, steweed or baked in a pie. _Torta Tal-Lampuki_ The local fish speicalty is _torta tal-lampuki_, or _lampuki_ pie. Lampuka (_Coryphaena hippurus_)--plural _lampuki_--is known in ENglish as dolphin fish, dorado or mahi-mahi. BLUE GUIDE: MALTA AND GOZO by Geoffrey Aquilina Ross London: A&C Black 5th edition, September 2000 Pg. 22: First, try the _hobz_, Maltese bread. It is truly praiseworthy--delicious, crusty and flavoursome. If you enjoy Italian _bruschetta_ try the Maltese version called _hobz biz-zejt_ (bread dribbled with oil, rubbed with halved tomatoes and sprinkled with salt, pepper and herbs; capers are optional); there's nothing finer. Look out for _timpana_, a macaroni pie made with minced meat, aubergines, eggs and ricotta cheese wrapped in a case of flaky pastry. Or _ros-fil-forn_, which is much the same as _timpana_ except rice is used instead of pasta. Then there's _bragioli_ which are rolled slices of beef that have been stuffed and _torta tal-lampuka_, a fish pie. (...) Then there are _gbejniet_. (Pronouncing this is easier than it looks: Jib-bay-nee-it.) (Pg. 23--ed.) This is a popular local cheese made from sheep or goat's milk and is enjoyed either soft and new with a salad or allowed to harden and enjoyed with _galletti_, Malta's delightful plain, crunchy biscuit. THE ROUGH GUIDE TO MALTA & GOZO by Victor Paul Borg London: Rough Guides Ltd. First edition published November 2001 Pg. 257: Cheapest of all foodstuffs are the _pastizzi_--pockets of puff pastry filled with ricotta or mashed peas, sold by specialized kiosks on city streets and in cafes. Pg. 259: Bulky and cheap bread-based snacks include the popular _hobz biz-zejt_, a roll filled with capers, olives, basil, mint, tomatoes and tuna or anchovies and drizzled with vegetable oil; and _ftira_, a roll of flat bread, usually grilled and filled with a variety of ingredients of your choice... Maltese specialties include _gbejniet_--sheeps' milk mini cheese, which are dried and pickled in pepper, vinegar and salt as _gbejniet bil-bzar_, or eaten soft as _gbejniet friski_. (...) _fenkata_... _bragioli_... Pg. 260: _lampuki_... _Octopus_... _Amberjack_... Another Maltese specialty is _aljotta_, a soup based on (Pg. 261--ed.) fish stock, with marjoram, tomatoes, onions, garlic, lemon juice and vinegar. (I didn't get to the cookbooks. I have to run!--ed.) From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 14 18:07:03 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:07:03 -0500 Subject: Hey, Waitress! (2002) Message-ID: Tending bar in the late 60's they were always Waitrons and Bustroids (clip) > from the non- (Pg. 270--ed.) sexist yet mocking term "waitron," means > waitress--for why interrupt the show? > (Hey, author! How about giving us some cites for "waitron"?--ed.) > > Pg. 270: "I started out cleaning the restaurant, not 'tronning." From sylvar at VAXER.NET Mon Oct 14 18:07:07 2002 From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:07:07 -0700 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on that. > Vociferously. On sf lists you can find many fen who will disagree with you on *any* given assertion. Vociferously. Ben -- "If there were a verb meaning 'to believe falsely', it would not have any significant first person, present indicative." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 14 18:12:21 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:12:21 -0400 Subject: O.T.: Maltese food Message-ID: Get real, Barry. You won't be happy living anywhere that doesn't have top-quality library facilities. You're restricted to New York, Washington, London, and some university towns. John Baker From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:12:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:12:17 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: <000701c273a5$4e2daed0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #> #>I think I remember Forward but I don't remember where. But #> it was likely #> #>a tuckerization of an astronomer/sf author whose first name I don't #> #>recall offhand (Robert?). # #Tuckerization? When a real person is included* as a character in an sf story, that is called tuckerization, after an author who did a lot of it. I most recently saw the term on rec.music.filk**, w.r.t. a character who is named Jordin Kare and is an astronautical engineer. There is a real Jordin Kare who is a filker** and an astronautical engineer. (He wears a T-shirt saying "Yes, as it happens, I *am* a rocket scientist!") Apparently the author auctioned off the opportunity to appear as a character, and his wife bought it as a present for him. *"Included" by name, not necessarily in any other respect. I'm not sure if it includes things like quasi-naming (a term I just invented for it); e.g., in Niven & (Pournelle?)'s _Fallen Angels_, a novel in which fandom is central to the plot, and we see e.g. the armed and anti-government fannish singer Jennie Trout, whom fannish readers recognize as a calque of Leslie Fish. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname ** http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:29:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:29:08 -0400 Subject: what do you call...? Message-ID: In our neighborhood bake / coffee shop, a branch of the Panera chain, my daughter & I saw a sign reading Feeling cinnamental? and promoting various cinnamon-flavored products in their current "Cinnamondo" promotion. She asked what I as a linguist would call "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. The best I could say was that it's a type of blend, and dependent on the nasal-flap pronunciation of "sentimental". (For strict homophony it would require dInIs-raising -- what do we call that? -- but the pun works for me without that.) -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:31:05 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:31:05 -0400 Subject: pronominal "such" Message-ID: On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" and... the like: > She asked what I as a linguist would call > "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. How long has that been around? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 14 20:34:35 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:34:35 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help whoever's next?" (She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion threads.) -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 14 20:39:40 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:39:40 -0700 Subject: pronominal "such" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't reckon I ever did hear tell o' setch. PR On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that > she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" > and... the like: From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Oct 14 21:46:01 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:46:01 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help >whoever's next?" > >(She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time >together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I >figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion >threads.) I first noticed this locution shortly after I moved to New Haven, almost 15 years ago. It was used by all of the counter workers at the coffee joint closest to the lab. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From self at TOWSE.COM Mon Oct 14 21:47:06 2002 From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:47:06 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: Alice Faber wrote: > > Mark A Mandel wrote: > >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which > >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help > >whoever's next?" > > > >(She's in graduate school; I'm working out of town; we spent some time > >together today for the first time in over a month. With coffee. But I > >figured it would be best for the list to separate the discussion > >threads.) > > I first noticed this locution shortly after I moved to New Haven, almost 15 > years ago. It was used by all of the counter workers at the coffee joint > closest to the lab. Probably originated as a co-mingling of "Who's next?" "Can I help you?" Sal -- 2000+ useful links for writers From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 14 21:49:24 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:49:24 -0500 Subject: "Big Apple" indeed! Message-ID: I've encountered the horse-apple derivation of "The Big Apple" at least several times over the past decade, advanced orally and always seriously. So I missed the tongue-in-cheek spirit of Mike Salovesh's suggestion. (Add emoticon for dejection here). Gerald Cohen >At 12:47 PM -0500 10/14/02, Mike Salovesh wrote: > >Aw, shucks. You're trying to take away my chance to crap on the Big >Apple -- something it's very hard for an old Chicago boy to pass up. > >I post folk etymologies of two types. > >Type 1: Alleged etymologies I have heard repeatedly from lots of folks, >regardless of their historical accuracy. I try to identify folk >etymologies by citing the range of folks I heard saying them. Cf. my >comment on doozy=Duesenberg. > >Type 2: Fake etymologies I invent out of my own little pointed head as >comments on something else. > >I mistakenly thought Big Apple=Horse apple was an obvious Type 2. Guess >I wuz wrong. I guess maybe I shoulda used a emoticon. Maybe I shoulda >stood in bed. > >-- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 00:38:38 2002 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:38:38 EDT Subject: Jazz redux Message-ID: << What was "jazz" called before it was called jazz? Any specific name? >> I'm coming to this discussion late, but I seem to remember having heard that the predecessor name was "ragtime." Nowadays, I realize, "ragtime" has a more specialized meaning. - Allan Metcalf From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 00:56:55 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:56:55 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <3DAB3B5A.8E0B2496@towse.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Towse wrote: #Probably originated as a co-mingling of "Who's next?" "Can I help #you?" I suggested as much to her, and she pointed out the different intonational contours as counterevidence. -- Mark A. Mandel From pds at VISI.COM Tue Oct 15 02:08:24 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:08:24 -0500 Subject: The Man Message-ID: Any truth to the following etymological assertion? [from another listserve] >These [post civil war southern Democrats] would be the guys who >owned most of the land that the landless farmers would work as tenants, >becoming slightly more indebted each year to the "Provisioning Man". This is >the guy who ran the store where they got all their stuff, bought on credit >against their crop yields. Curiously most years those crop yields wouldn't >be enough to wipe out the debt and "The Man" (yes, that's where the phrase >comes from) would come around looking for payment. [and in a later post by the same writer] >Oh yeah, I forgot to say that most of my Populist info/analysis is based on >reading the peerless "The Populist Moment" by Lawrence Godwyn I note that Lighter's earliest citations for "The Man" are from 1918 and refer to a naval officer and a prison warden. Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From yvonne_frasure at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 15 03:28:34 2002 From: yvonne_frasure at YAHOO.COM (yvonne frasure) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:28:34 -0700 Subject: Tatterdemalion Message-ID: What is the origin of tatterdemalion (a.k.a. ragamuffin)? Yvonne --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 15 10:33:26 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 06:33:26 -0400 Subject: FW: Border States and South-Midlandisms Message-ID: larry h said: >> More on Tim McCarver: Those broadcasts (of the Giants-Cards playoff series on Fox) have been entertaining from a dialectological perspective. There was an interesting exchange between McCarver and his partner--an argument, really--that began when McCarver read a commercial promo for a movie that would be opening in various "theAters" (second syllable stress, with tense /ey/ vowel) and his partner (was that Joe Buck, who should know better, or someone else?) immediately jumped on him for the presumable yokelism just committed. McCarver, in his own defense, pointed out that a lot of people in the states surrounding where they were doing the game from (St. Louis) pronounce it in exactly that way, a point which his partner was willing to concede (while probably muttering under his breath about what THAT tells us). << McCarver's partner on Fox baseball (regular season and now in postseason) is indeed Joe Buck, son of the late, great Cardinals (baseball AND football, at one time) broadcaster Jack Buck. Joe was raised in St. Louis, but is so studied a broadcaster that he might have fallen prey to schoolmarmism. btw, I recall that there were some ADS-L postings recently on Jack Buck, just after his death. He popularized a few expressions. Frank Abate From cabbagelooper at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 15 14:01:36 2002 From: cabbagelooper at YAHOO.COM (taylor j) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:01:36 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard bank tellers in Gainesville, FL saying "Can I help who's ever next?", in addition to the versions noted by your daughter. I'm curious: is the "who's next" variant derived from the "who's ever" (the 'ever' dropped)(this strikes me as unlikely-- why would anyone generate 's in the middle of a word, even as an error?) or is the "who's ever next" a blend of "who's next" and "whoever's next"? Or something else entirely? Joanna Taylor --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help > who's next?", which > only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of > "Can I help > whoever's next?" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 14:50:53 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:50:53 EDT Subject: Garrison didoes Message-ID: In a message dated 10/14/02 12:51:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > #I reread [Starship Troopers] recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine by comparison with > #its movie. > > A Dutch Alp. "ALP" = "Avoid Like the Plague"? In which case, what is the significance of "Dutch"? - Jim Landau From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 15:02:56 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:02:56 -0400 Subject: Garrison didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: # #> #I reread [Starship Troopers] recently, with pleasure. It surely was fine #by comparison with #> #its movie. #> #> A Dutch Alp. # #"ALP" = "Avoid Like the Plague"? In which case, what is the significance of #"Dutch"? "Better than the movie 'Starship Troopers'" isn't saying very much. "A Dutch Alp" = 'a very tall mountain, in terms of a very flat country' = 'a big frog in a small puddle' = 'something claimed to be important (big, excellent, etc.), which actually can be called so only by comparison with others that are notably lacking in that quality'. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 15 15:07:03 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:07:03 -0400 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) Message-ID: Barry Popik's post titled "Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922)" reached me looking like this: >>>>> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Bapopik at gcom.ru Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) Parts/Attachments: 1 Shown ~12 lines Text 2 52 KB Audio ---------------------------------------- KOSHER I went back to THE OCCIDENT AND AMERICAN JEWISH ADVOCATE. It has "kasher" in 1843. The November 1846 "kosher" is really "kasher." However, from February 1847, pg. 553: On the subject of Shochetim, and the sale of <<<<< And that was all. The text cut off in the middle. I did not try to deal with the alleged 52K audio file, partly because it'd be a major nuisance to do so with my current connection and partly because I'm not at all sure it would be what it purports to be, rather than, say, a nasty virus. -- Mark A. Mandel From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 15 15:18:37 2002 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:18:37 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <20021015140136.47092.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. Benjamin Barrett Live from Tukwila, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of taylor j > Sent: Tuesday, 15 October, 2002 07:02 > > I've heard bank tellers in Gainesville, FL saying "Can > I help who's ever next?", in addition to the versions > noted by your daughter. I'm curious: is the "who's > next" variant derived from the "who's ever" (the > 'ever' dropped)(this strikes me as unlikely-- why > would anyone generate 's in the middle of a word, even > as an error?) or is the "who's ever next" a blend of > "who's next" and "whoever's next"? Or something else > entirely? > > Joanna Taylor From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Oct 15 15:29:19 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:29:19 -0400 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Mandel writes: >And my daughter *also* wonders about "Can I help who's next?", which >only in the past 2-3 years has she heard in place of "Can I help >whoever's next?" ~~~~~~ I wonder whether formulaic expressions like these that have to be repeated many times, perhaps in slightly distracting circumstances, aren't particualrly susceptible to odd deformations. There is an awkward angularity to "Can I help whoever's next" that almost invites a stutter or some kind. A. Murie From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 15 15:43:09 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:43:09 -0400 Subject: Rogues' Gallery Message-ID: 1857: Daguerreotype Gallery of Criminals at the Detective Police Office. *** There must be positive proof that the man or woman, girl or boy, whose likeness is added to the Rogue's Gallery of the Detective Police, is an incorrigible offender. . . . NY Times, December 5, 1857, p. 1, col. ? 1858: His likeness was taken and hung in the rogues' gallery, as it should have been before. NY Times, May 22, 1858, p. 1, col. ? 1858: THE THIEVES' GALLERY. *** While at Headquarters, the doctor was invited to look at the Thieves' Gallery, and in scrutinizing the countenance of this and that notorious character, his eye suddently fell upon the likeness of the scamp who had swindled him out of the $100. *** New-York Daily Tribune, June 28, 1858, p. 7, col. 4. 1860: He was then shown a picture of Charles, in the Rogue's Gallery, and in it recognized the man who had addressed him on the boat. New-York Daily Tribune, January 17, 1860, p. 7, col. 4 The OED has "rogues' gallery" from 1859, so the 1857 reference is an antedating of only 2 years, but it is of interest because the story makes clear that the daguerreotype collection of portraits of villains was begun only "a few weeks since" and contained only "twenty-eight likenesses of well-authenticated culprits, male and female". We notice with approval the gender-blind nature of the collection, and also the concern for civil liberties shown in the fact that perpetrators were not photographed on their first arrest, but only after they had proven themselves to be "an old and hardened offender". So we seem to have this term treed, at least for America. I see from the Reader's Encycl. of American History that Philadelphia did not establish a police force until 1858, and presumably the constablulary or watch system that was in place in 1857 and earlier would not be likely to have kept a portrait gallery of this sort; and other US cities also seem unlikely to have felt the need for a rogues' gallery. I found the first two items recently through the NYTimes historical database; the last two I had found some time ago through reading the Tribune. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Oct 15 15:44:59 2002 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:44:59 -0500 Subject: job post Message-ID: Chair. Lewis Department of Humanities, Illinois Institute of Technology, Chicago, seeks a teacher-scholar in any humanities discipline with administrative experience. The successful candidate must be able to lead and advocate effectively to take advantage of growth opportunities. We are especially interested in candidates whose excellent research and undergraduate teaching complement the department's current strengths in the humanistic study of science, technology, architecture, and the city. We seek candidates who can develop faculty, programs and curricula that will be of interest to IIT's diverse, international student body. IIT is a mid-sized, private university specializing in educating engineers, scientists and architects. IIT also offers extensive graduate and professional programs in business, design, law and psychology. The humanities department offers a B.S. degree in Humanities as well as several B.S. and M.S. degrees in technical communication and information architecture; it also offers undergraduate general education courses in history, art and architectural history, philosophy, literature, language, and communication. Rank: tenured associate or full professor. Salary: competitive. Send electronic (preferred) letter of interest and c.v. by November 25, 2002, to mcmorris at iit.edu, or hard copies to: F. R. McMorris-Chair, Department of Applied Mathematics, Illinois Institute of Technology, 10 West 32nd Street, E1, Rm 208, Chicago, IL 60616. AA/EOE -- - Gregory J. Pulliam Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities 218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL 60616 312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465 pulliam at iit.edu http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Oct 15 16:21:19 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:21:19 +0100 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Barry Popik's post titled "Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922)" > reached me looking like this: Its size, of 69K, is the give-away. I got a copy, too, a few moments ago. It's an example of the Bugbear virus (incidentally, one of the better-named of its breed). If anyone else gets it, don't open the attachment. If you can spot it ahead of you on the mail server, don't even download it! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From dave at WILTON.NET Tue Oct 15 16:33:47 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:33:47 -0700 Subject: Gooja In-Reply-To: <3DAC4E8F.28911.F777A23@localhost> Message-ID: This appeared today on the Usenet newsgroup alt.fan.cecil-adams. I've found other citations for "gooja" going back to Feb. 2001: "> Does anyone here use Deja anymore? I thought we "googled". Are there any > holdovers who still prefer Deja? You can't "Deja". If you go to http://www.dejanews.com you get Google groups. We "google" for websites. We "gooja" for newsgroup archives." From mlv at POBOX.COM Tue Oct 15 16:42:33 2002 From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:42:33 -0400 Subject: Kosher (Feb. 1847); Armenian menu (1922) In-Reply-To: <200210151358.g9FDw4Ol597673@oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header which showed: Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu [132.235.203.98]) by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Also, I saw it personally, not via the list (I get the list in digest form daily, so any mail by Bapopik sent to me personally is a surprise). This also means that I'm probably in this person's address book. That means it's almost certainly someone on this list, because I (unfortunately) don't otherwise associate with linguists. I don't know what kind of virus it is, but someone identified it as bugbear. And of course, if you open the attachment, update your virus checking software and scan for viruses (you are probably now infected). Michael From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Oct 15 17:18:09 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:18:09 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" Message-ID: Bemjamin: > The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. > "Who's ever next" sounds more or less normal to me, especially after having lived in Texas for a while. "Who's next" sounds kinda strange. I don't know about you, but I've never heard "who's next" out here. It's usually(in grocery stores, etc), "Can I help the next person in line", or "I can help you at ___" Anne G Live from Seattle, Washington --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 15 17:08:30 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:08:30 -0500 Subject: baseball terminology messages from 19cBB discussion list Message-ID: I'm on the discussion-group list for 19th century baseball and recently received various messages about baseball terminology, a topic which overlaps with ads-l interests. I'll be happy to forward baseball-terminology messages to ads-l and send any ads-l input on their content back to the 19cBB list. Here now are two messages which arrived today. Gerald Cohen [item #1]: >At 9:46 AM -0400 10/15/02, Shieber, Tom wrote: >To: "'19cBB at yahoogroups.com'" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "Shieber, Tom" >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:46:51 -0400 >Subject: RE: [19cBB] Terminology >Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com > >Folks - > For what it's worth, I have read many hundreds of game accounts from >the 1850s and early 1860s and have yet to see the word "dead" as a synonym >for "out" in any account of a baseball game. (By baseball, I am here >referring to the New York Game). Of course, this doesn't mean that it never >was used, but if it was it was extremely rare. > - Tom Shieber [item #2]: >At 12:28 PM -0400 10/15/02, Greg Rhodes wrote: >To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com >From: Greg Rhodes >Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:28:53 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Re: Vintage terminology > > >The thread on terminology is of great interest to those of us in the >Vintage ball experience. I strongly believe we ought to be a >research-grounded enterprise. That is, the customs of play, the terms >we use, the equipment we use, should all be derived from research. That >would mean club rules and scorebooks from the period, newspaper >accounts, box scores, and most importantly of all, the baseball guides >(which include the rules). Recollections of players and officials >published years later are also useful. > >We should be able to justify the terminology we use in vintage ball by >referring back to examples of their use from the period. We should not >be using terms that we think were in use, or we know were in use before >or after the period, but we have scant or no evidence of their use from >the era we are recreating. > >As Tom Shieber points out in his most recent post, the word "dead" for >outs is missing from the newspaper accounts of the 1850s and early >1860s. Yet this is a term I have often heard --and used myself. Paul >Hunkele recently noted on this list: > >"Dead" is apparently an early slang for "out", which appears to >be a holdover from "soaking"; the pre 1845(?) rule allowing runners to be >'killed' by a thrown ball. During the years of carnage of the American >Civil War, calling runners "dead" or "hands dead" was replaced with "lost" >or "hands lost" (as apparently they had their fill of death), and later >"hands out". > >What are the sources on "dead" being used in baseball prior to the Civil >War? And for those teams recreating the Red Stocking era of the late >1860s (fly game), is there any evidence "dead" was in common use then? >Paul, would you feel that you are seeing a correct interpretation of the >era if players used the term "dead" in an 1860 recreation? How about an >1869 presentation? Also interesting that you note that "safe" is not >used in the early 1860s. What about in the guides? I will have to check >that. Does anyone know when "safe" came into common usuage? According to > Dickson's Baseball Dictionary, the first recorded use of "safe" was in >1862. But that doesn't mean it immediately became widely used. > >Here are four other terms that have been mentioned lately and that are >widespread in the vintage movement (there are many other terms in use, >but let's start with these): > >Behind for catcher >Hurler for pitcher >Crank for fans >Striker for batter > >Striker appears in the rules throughout the 1860s and is certainly >justified. I have never seen crank used in the 1860s and for good >reason; it was not used until the 1880s according to Dickson's Baseball >Dictionary. Hurler, according to the Baseball Dictionary , was not used >until 1908. (That the vintage movement continues to use these >terms--crank and hurler--for 1860 games is embarrassing. For clubs >representing museums or historic sites to use these terms is an insult >to the professional standards of those institutions. It is the >equivalent of going to a Civil War reenactment and having soldiers >referred to as "doughboys." We would laugh at such a presentation, and >those who know better are appalled at us for continuing to foist these >terms on an unknowing audience.) > >As for behind, it is certainly not widely used in the newspapers and I >have never seen it in a 1860s box score. I read with some interest that >Paul H. did see it in an 1867 account: > >I have seen "behind" used in reference to the catcher's position in an 1867 >match summary. "Behind" was used in '67 to refer to the catcher's position >in the same manner "in the field" referred to an out-fielder. > > >And Gordon Hylton also wrote about the "behind": > >I think some of these terms remained in use in parts of the country long >after they pass out of the official baseball parlance. In my childhood >in southwestern Virginia--I was born in 1952--I remember older >people--probably born in the 1910's--regularly referring to the catcher >as the "hind catcher" which I assume is a modification of the much >earlier "behind." > >Are occasional references to "behind" in the newspapers from the 1860s, >or recollections and regional use such as Mr. Hylton notes strong enough >justification for using the term "behind?" I would argue they are not. > I would like to see much more widespread use of a term in sources of >the period before the vintage movement adopts it as widely as we have >this term. I would argue that we are on much stronger ground by using >the term "behind" sparingly and using "catcher" much more often. I am in >the process of going through the guides I have from the 1860s (Beadles >guides from the 1860s, and the DeWitt's Guide from 1869) to see how >often they use the term "behind". > >In fact, I think we could solve a lot of problems by agreeing to use the >guides as our primary reference source for all that we do in vintage >ball. If teams want to deviate or offer an alternative interpretation, >then the onus is on them to do the research and support their position. > >Greg Rhodes > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 15 18:23:08 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:23:08 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <20021015164233.GA19757@homb.org> Message-ID: Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, ? 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a ?crit : > This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. > > It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a > Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header > which showed: > > Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu > [132.235.203.98]) > by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with > SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; > Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David Bergdahl. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 18:55:35 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:55:35 -0700 Subject: pronominal "such" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's been around at least since my grade school days in the early 50s. I remember reading a lightly humorous short story in about 5th grade which included this bit of dialog: "Do I understand you are...[adjectival phrase or name???]," he asked. "You understand exactly such," she answered. I can't imagine why I remember this, except perhaps because it was the first time I'd encountered "such" used in that way. It seemed to make perfect sense, though. PMc --On Monday, October 14, 2002 4:31 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > On rereading my previous post, I see that I've used a construction that > she also asked me about today: pronominal "such", outside of "and such" > and... the like: > >> She asked what I as a linguist would call >> "cinnamental" and what branch of linguistics studies such. > > How long has that been around? > > -- Mark A. Mandel **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 15 19:05:46 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:05:46 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <27E24EE3-E06B-11D6-9A1D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: ...and Bergdahl has a Mac so, Bev??? --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:23 PM -0400 Grant Barrett wrote: > Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, ? 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a > ?crit : > >> This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. >> >> It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a >> Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header >> which showed: >> >> Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu >> [132.235.203.98]) >> by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with >> SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; >> Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) > > We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David > Bergdahl. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 15 19:57:42 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:57:42 -0400 Subject: Tatterdemalion In-Reply-To: <20021015032834.52558.qmail@web21305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >What is the origin of tatterdemalion (a.k.a. ragamuffin)? Nobody knows exactly AFAIK. Here is as good a Web explanation as I can find right away (in case Michael Quinion is reluctant to toot his own horn): http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-tat1.htm The early pronunciation presumably rhymed with "stallion" or "Italian" (per OED) and the "l" was often doubled in spelling. The word was rhymed with the word "Italian" in its early use by Jonson in 1611, quoted in the OED: I don't know whether this is what is meant by "said as though it were Italian" in Quinion's page. Quinion refers to the latter part of the word being derived from French "maillon" or Italian "maglia". I don't know offhand who suggested such derivations or with what evidence. These are both apparently derived from Latin "macula" meaning "space/loop [in a net]" ... thence Italian "maglia" = "knitting"/"knit shirt"/etc. (apparently via Occitan "malha") and French "maille", whence "maillot" = "knit garment" etc. Apparently there are also French "maillon", Occitan "malhon", both meaning approx. "link"/"loop"/"ring", and Italian "maglione" = "sweater" or so. However I suspect that the "-ion" ending in "tatterdemalion" is fanciful by analogy with "cullion"/"gullion" (cf. "hellion"/"hallion", "rapscallion"/"rampallion", "scullion"), intended to mean or connote "wretched/lowly person". Is the "-de-" just fanciful or is it part of an identifiable etymon? I don't know, but compare French "d?mailler" ("de'mailler") = "break the links of", "unravel [a knit garment]"/"make a run in [a stocking]": the verb is old enough, but I don't know about its precise usage ca. 1600 nor about whether it might have been used then in English (nonce perhaps). So I would speculate that maybe the coinage reflects "tattered" + "d?maill?" (= "[un]raveled") + "-ion". This would seem reasonable semantically, and perhaps as good a casual conjecture as any I've seen. I see only now that a similar conjecture has been presented previously on the Web -- http://hometown.aol.com/oddother/page6.htm -- with "desmaillier" (the difference in spelling of the French verb appears to be insignificant). -- Doug Wilson From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 20:12:28 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:12:28 -0700 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <1375805.3243683146@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This morning on NPR Bob Edwards said "long-lived" with a diphthong [ai] in the second element rather than what one usually hears as [I] (woops: that's not an ell, but a small capital eye). In doing so, he won my gratitude as an ally in a lonely (and perhaps futile or even utterly misguided) battle for the understanding of what "-lived" means. I take it to mean 'having a life,' i.e. 'having a long life,' which would justify the [ai] pronunciation. When I was a tad I always pronounced the _-lived_ as I did _lived_, but then one day I changed forever when I heard my father say "short-lived" to rhyme with, um, "multi-wived" (for lack of a better example). Did anyone else hear this pronunciation by Bob Edwards and thus resolve to renew immediately that NPR membership during this nagging, money-hustling week? Peter R. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 20:34:17 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:34:17 -0700 Subject: "Can I help who's next?" In-Reply-To: <00ac01c2746e$dc1e40f0$4c0ad63f@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: I hear "can I help who's next" fairly frequently "down south" here in Oregon, along with "the next (person) in line." "Who's ever next" sounds odd to me. Peter Mc --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:18 AM -0700 Anne Gilbert wrote: > Bemjamin: > > > >> The "who's ever next" sounds most normal to my ear. >> > "Who's ever next" sounds more or less normal to me, especially after > having lived in Texas for a while. "Who's next" sounds kinda strange. I > don't know about you, but I've never heard "who's next" out here. It's > usually(in grocery stores, etc), "Can I help the next person in line", or > "I can help you at ___" > Anne G > Live from Seattle, Washington > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 15 20:49:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:49:22 -0400 Subject: Greetings from Malta; The "Bapopik" Virus Isn't From Me Message-ID: THE "BAPOPIK" VIRUS ISN'T FROM ME The "Bapopik" virus isn't from me. I apologize to anyone who opened thinking that it was from me. I have absolutely nothing to do with it. I knew ten years ago that ADS-ers can be unkind to me, but this is borderline crime. "Bapopik" (Barry A. Popik) is my name. --------------------------------------------------------------- GREETINGS FROM MALTA Greetings from Malta. I can't say that I'll move here. It's my first day, and it's just a thought. The weather here is nicely warm. MALTA SLANG--I didn't find any English slang books yet. MALTESE--It's still spoken! Most everything, of course, is written in English, though. VINTAGE BUSES--"KEEP CLEAR VINTAGE BUSES TERMINUS." The buses are a sight. They're not just for tourists; people use the old things. MALTESE FOOD: A quick check of the online OED shows that almost NONE of these terms can be found in the OED. Malta, OED, Malta! It used to be governed by--oh, you know! Check out: http://web.idirect.com/~malta/recipes.htm http://www.maltagozo.htm/food.html http://www.hotelsmalta.com/caterers_buffet.htm PASTIZZI and PASTIZZERIA--Found everywhere. Gotta be in OED! ARANCINI (rice balls)--Found everywhere. One place has Bolognese, Siciliana, Chicken & Ham. QASSATA or QASSATAT--Found everywhere. One place has Cheese/Peas/Spinach. BRAGIOLI or BRAGGIOLI (Beef Olives)--Found everywhere. FRESH GBEJNIET SALAD--Gbejniet is everywhere. Gotta be in OED. KNICKERBOCKER GLORY or KNICKER BOCKER GLORY--Found at least three places. Three flavours of ice cream (chocolate, vanilla, pistachio), cream, and fruit salad. MALTESE SANDWICH (FTIRA)--Ftira is everywhere. One place describes the sandwich as "A traditional ftira brushed with oil with tuna, capers, olives, beans, tomatoes, onions, and gbejniet. MALTESE PIZZA--Found at just one place. Tomatoes, Sausage, Gozzo Cheese, Oregano, Olives. CLOSED PIZZA--A Calzone. The name "closed pizza" was seen in at least three places. RABBIT STEW OR FRIED IN GARLIC (MALTESE DISH)--Seen many place, but I ain't eatin' it. MALTESE COFFEE--WIth Anisette. Seen just one place. MEDITERRANEAN COFFEE--Metaxa and Galliano, seen one place. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 15 19:47:07 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:47:07 -0400 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Oct 2002, at 13:12, Peter Richardson wrote: > This morning on NPR Bob Edwards said "long-lived" with a diphthong [ai] in > the second element rather than what one usually hears as [I] (woops: > that's not an ell, but a small capital eye). In doing so, he won my > gratitude as an ally in a lonely (and perhaps futile or even utterly > misguided) battle for the understanding of what "-lived" means. I take it > to mean 'having a life,' i.e. 'having a long life,' which would justify > the [ai] pronunciation. When I was a tad I always pronounced the _-lived_ > as I did _lived_, but then one day I changed forever when I heard my > father say "short-lived" to rhyme with, um, "multi-wived" (for lack > of a better example). Did anyone else hear this pronunciation by Bob > Edwards and thus resolve to renew immediately that NPR membership during > this nagging, money-hustling week? > > Peter R. I didn't actually hear that part of the broadcast, but I do remember having the long-i pronunciation drummed into me by an English teacher in high school. Apparently "long-lived" isn't entered in the M-W usage book, though, which leads me to wonder how widespread the taboo over the short-i pronunciation is. I see your point that the "-lived" component does not represent a past participal form historically -- not that it necessarily matters to most English speakers, who probably see "lived" and pronounce it the way it would would be pronounced in the vast majority of other contexts. I'm not sure whether that would be classified as folk etymology or some other phenomenon (leveling?). Anyway, both prons are in the Collegiate, for what it's worth. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Oct 15 19:51:39 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:51:39 -0400 Subject: -lived Message-ID: Oops! That should have been "past participle." Sorry -- it's been a long day. Joanne D. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 15 21:01:02 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:01:02 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <1375805.3243683146@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I'm afraid OU is the culprit--but this thing is spreading all through the PC system here. I've called the computer services people, and they tell me they've been hit too. Apparently a virus (klez, I believe) is finding address books and sending itself to all addressees (if that's the right jargon). When I asked what I could do about it, I was told "nothing"--except maybe to change to a different account for a while that doesn't go through the OU system. Can any of you give me better advice??? Meanwhile, I was told to turn off the preview pane, so that messages don't automatically pop up; and of course never ever open an attachment to weird messages like the one falsely appended to Popik notes! At 03:05 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: >....and Bergdahl has a Mac so, Bev??? > >--On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:23 PM -0400 Grant Barrett > wrote: > >>Le Tuesday, 15 Oct 2002, ? 12:42 America/New_York, Michael Vezie a >>?crit : >> >>>This message was a virus. But it didn't come from Bapopik. >>> >>>It came from someone at Ohio University who (I'm guessing) owns a >>>Compaq (and calls their computer "compaq"). This based on the header >>>which showed: >>> >>>Received: from compaq (modem-203-098.dialnet.ohiou.edu >>>[132.235.203.98]) >>> by oak1a.cats.ohiou.edu (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with >>>SMTP id g9FDw4Ol597673; >>> Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:58:05 -0400 (EDT) >> >>We have two active users at ohiou.edu: Beverly Flanigan and David >>Bergdahl. > > > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 15 21:29:52 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:29:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Fried Twinkies Message-ID: The following is forwarded from Barry Popik. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (AP) -- In the South, where some joke that the four basic food groups are barbecued, baked, broiled or fried, state fairs are filled with booths that sell everything from corn on a stick to club-like turkey legs. For dessert, an odd new treat has emerged: fried Twinkies. Phil Dickson of Hot Springs has sold about 1,000 of the batter-dipped, deep-fried goodies topped with powdered sugar since the Arkansas State Fair opened Friday. "It's amazing to me," Dickson said Monday. "The response has just been tremendous." Each Twinkie, at 160 calories and five grams of fat a pop, is impaled on a stick and frozen until firm, then dipped in a batter similar to that used to fry fish. Deep frying adds more calories and fat, and the powdered-sugar coating apparently complements the Twinkie's altered state. "The inside creamy part stays cool, while the outside is warm," said Rhonda Yates, a postal worker spending her vacation helping Dickson with the Twinkie booth. Fairs in Arizona, California, Kansas and Washington also are expected to roll out fried Twinkies this year. 'We decided to buy a bunch of junk food and deep fry it' Suzanne Hackett, the general manager of an English restaurant in New York City called The ChipShop, said the fried Twinkie was born in her eatery out of boredom. "We had a very slow night in the restaurant so we decided to buy a bunch of junk food and deep fry it," Hackett said Monday. "And the Twinkies just tasted so good." Interstate Brands Corp., the firm that owns Twinkie-maker Hostess, doesn't object to the new creation -- it actually promotes the idea -- though it doesn't suggest a steady diet of the culinary concoction. (...) ----- End forwarded message ----- From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 15 22:23:09 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:23:09 -0700 Subject: signifying gender Message-ID: Margaret Talbot, "Men Behaving Badly", in the 10/13/02 New York Times Magazine, examines men harassing men and the search for legal remedies to it. On p. 54 she considers who gets picked on: Often the men who are targeted and later bring claims of harassment are the weakest of the herd--younger, smaller or more effeminate than the men they work with. But this is not always the case. Sometimes a big guy who's a seasoned worker is picked on anyway... A case in point is pipe welder Joseph Carlton. Carlton was not some weedy college boy. "Joe's a big, good-looking country guy, maybe 6-foot-5 and 250 pounds," says his lawyer... "The secretaries in my office called him the Marlboro Man." But his physical presence is not enough to make the point. Talbot goes on to mention Carlton's girlfriend and previous work at construction sites and shipyards. Even that is not enough. There is still the evidence of language: "I like to weld," Carlton testified. "That's what I've always done. And I like to do a good job. But I ain't never had nobody grab me." None of that prissy standard variety for Carlton. No, he speaks (and is represented here as speaking) nonstandard English, which in this context signifies not ignorance, lack of education, etc., but instead toughness, authentic masculinity. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Oct 15 22:32:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:32:09 -0700 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <3DAC398B.6039.1FA26B1E@localhost> Message-ID: Aw shucks--I kinda liked "parTIcipal" and was already working on some meanings for it. PMc --On Tuesday, October 15, 2002 3:51 PM -0400 "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: > Oops! That should have been "past participle." Sorry -- it's been a > long day. > > Joanne D. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Oct 15 23:41:34 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:41:34 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu Message-ID: One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 16 00:04:25 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:04:25 -0400 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <001d01c274a4$65df8080$81b99b3f@db> Message-ID: David Bergdahl said: >One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru >suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? Actually, one of the signatures of Bugbear is that it fakes email addresses by taking a random username from the address book and combining it with a random valid domain. -- Alice Faber tel. (203) 865-6163 x258 Haskins Laboratories fax (203) 865-8963 270 Crown St faber at haskins.yale.edu New Haven, CT 06511 From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 00:00:24 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:00:24 -0700 Subject: Virus from Ohiou.edu In-Reply-To: <001d01c274a4$65df8080$81b99b3f@db> Message-ID: > One clue that the Bapopik msg was infected was the address with a .ru > suffix--is that Russia or Rumania? ".ru" is Russia. ".ro" is Romania. Does anyone spell "Rumania" with a U these days? I thought the NY Times was the last hold out, and they switched to the O spelling some (ten?) years ago From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 00:35:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:35:36 -0700 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <001101c27339$c826c7b0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: D'oh! Should have looked in DARE. They have an extensive entry for "dido." Besides the info that's in the OED, it includes a 1945 cite from Colcord's _Sea Language_ that reads, "said to come from the H.M.S. Dido, a very fast ship, whose commander used to sail her in circles around other vessels of his squadron to show off her fleetness." This "HMS Dido" (there have been several ships of that name), was launched in 1896. This can't be the origin of the generic "cut a dido," meaning to pull a prank, since that's attested to in 1807. Rather, the particular naval sense seems to be a play on words, using the coincidence of the ship's name with an existing phrase. I have no doubt that Heinlein, with his naval background, got his phrase from this. And while trying to identify the HMS Dido in question, I came across a good site on Royal Navy slang and jargon: http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/348.html DARE also lists a sense of "dido" meaning something fancy or frivolous from 1909. From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 00:37:34 2002 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:37:34 EDT Subject: -lived Message-ID: If you want historical support here's W.S. Gilbert, in the Pirates of Penzance with this rhyme: To gain a brief advantage you've contrived But your proud triumph will not be long-lived. On a related note, for my Shakespeare pronunciation guide (forgive me for plugging it but it's just out this month in paperback, from Routledge: Pronouncing Shakespeare's Words: A Guide from A to Zounds) my survey of scholars for the word "livelong" (in Julius Caesar and elsewhere) showed in the US 15 to 2 in favor of the short vowel as opposed to the diphthong, with a slightly higher percentage for the diphthong in the UK. Dale Coye NJ From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 02:05:23 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:05:23 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd Intl, OED New Edn., or AHD4. Here is a passage from Lindsey Davis's new Falco novel, _A Body in the Bathhouse_, (c) 2001, Mysterious Press, pp. 6-7. The protagonist and narrator, a P.I. (private informer) in Rome ca. 75 C.E., is telling the reader about his new daughter: Born skinny and silent, she had [p.7] looked halfway to Hades. The minute I named her, she rallied. From then on, she was as tough as a totter's ferret. -- Mark A. Mandel From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Oct 16 02:09:36 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:09:36 -0700 Subject: -lived Message-ID: Peter and Joanne: > I didn't actually hear that part of the broadcast, but I do remember > having the long-i pronunciation drummed into me by an English > teacher in high school. Apparently "long-lived" isn't entered in the > M-W usage book, though, which leads me to wonder how > widespread the taboo over the short-i pronunciation is. I see your > point that the "-lived" component does not represent a past > participal form historically -- not that it necessarily matters to most > English speakers, who probably see "lived" and pronounce it the > way it would would be pronounced in the vast majority of other > contexts. I'm not sure whether that would be classified as folk > etymology or some other phenomenon (leveling?). > > Anyway, both prons are in the Collegiate, for what it's worth. Maybe my age is showing, or something, but I've always said "long-lived" with a long I. The other pronunciation, I'm sure I've heard, but I'm not sure if it's "the" one or not. Or maybe it varies regionally? Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.401 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 16 02:23:33 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:23:33 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: - Mark A. Mandel writes: >What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd >Intl, OED New Edn....... The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 02:26:26 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:26:26 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: #The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? -- Mark M. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Oct 16 02:43:15 2002 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:43:15 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, sagehen wrote: > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > >Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > >-- Mark M. Dunt Esk. A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 03:04:02 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:04:02 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > >... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? Tut-tut, OED. Tut-tut, M-W. "Webster's 2nd" (ca. 1934, I think): "one who reclaims odds and ends from refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." Updated in "Webster's 3rd" to, uh, [nothing]. -- Doug Wilson From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 04:10:01 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:10:01 -0700 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > #The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > Thank you! -- Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: "A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 05:23:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:23:33 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: >>Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? >It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: >"A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth >picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone >collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. Oops. The whole entry looked like a flyspeck in my poor-man's edition. Good for the OED; I retract my tut-tut with an apology. Maybe I missed it in Webster's 3rd too? No wonder I can't afford the on-line OED; my eyes are getting weak and I can no longer tell which tots are worth picking up. -- Doug Wilson From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 16 05:37:32 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:37:32 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: Mark Mandel asks, >> What is "totter", a noun referring to a person? It is not in MW 3rd >> Intl, OED New Edn., or AHD4. It is, however, in M-W *Second* Int'l. Two definitions: (1) "One who tots or adds up, as an account." (2) "One who reclaims odds and ends from refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." I expect it's the latter who's referred to in your quote from the Lindsey Davis novel, "she was as tough as a totter's ferret." When and where street scavengers were accompanied by ferrets, I don't know. All I could find were references to their being used by *rural* hunters to help flush out rabbits. But perhaps (though I find no source that says so) "ferret" has been used as a slang term to mean an urchin hired to assist such an urban "hunter"? --Dodi Schultz From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 16 06:28:49 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 02:28:49 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <002a01c274ab$f2ed41e0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: >Should have looked in DARE. They have an extensive entry for "dido." Besides >the info that's in the OED, it includes a 1945 cite from Colcord's _Sea >Language_ that reads, "said to come from the H.M.S. Dido, a very fast ship, >whose commander used to sail her in circles around other vessels of his >squadron to show off her fleetness." > >This "HMS Dido" (there have been several ships of that name), was launched >in 1896. This can't be the origin of the generic "cut a dido," meaning to >pull a prank, since that's attested to in 1807. Rather, the particular naval >sense seems to be a play on words, using the coincidence of the ship's name >with an existing phrase. I have no doubt that Heinlein, with his naval >background, got his phrase from this. When I was young[er], I routinely heard "dido" used for "frippery"/"gewgaw" or so: it might refer to flounces or decorations on clothing or to gingerbread in architecture: I guess I would have taken it to be a nonsense word (reminiscent of "la-dee-da" maybe) for some bauble whose name one doesn't have handy. I am also familiar with "cutting didoes" in a sense which I understand to mean "making fancy maneuvers"; but I can't remember where I first saw this; maybe in Heinlein? I would have pictured a carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). The "Century Dictionary" (1889) gives a proposed etymology for "dido" (I don't know whether it's anything more than conjecture): <<[ME. _dido_; in allusion to the familiar tale of the trick played by _Dido_, the legendary queen of Carthage, in bargaining for as much land as could be covered by a hide, and cutting the hide into a long thin strip so as to inclose a large tract: ....]>> The first definition given here ("obsolete") is "an old story." -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 16 10:58:41 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:58:41 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021015225702.04704c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." > > > > >... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > > Tut-tut, OED. It is in the OED, s.v. tot, n.5. (that's superscript 5). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 16 13:29:26 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:29:26 -0400 Subject: totter, n. Message-ID: There is an economical alternative to a private subscription to the on-line OED: The Quality Paperback Book Club includes on-line OED access with membership. For more information, see www.qpb.com. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:24 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: totter, n. No wonder I can't afford the on-line OED; my eyes are getting weak and I can no longer tell which tots are worth picking up. -- Doug Wilson From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 16:04:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:04:30 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <000b01c274c9$e67a79f0$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: #It is. "Totter, n.2" gives you a cross reference to "Tot n.5" which reads: # #"A dust-heap picker's name for a bone; whence by extension, anything worth #picking from a refuse-heap or elsewhere. Hence totter, a rag-and-bone #collector; totting, dust-heap picking." From 1873, of unknown origin. Glurp! How'd I miss that? -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 16 16:45:36 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:45:36 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: Something I was reading in an 1830s newspaper regarding a society for "ameliorating the condition of the Jews" -- ie, converting them -- aroused a vague and perhaps false memory that the Irish had an expression along the lines of "a soup-kitchen Protestant" to refer to those who (seemingly) converted for the sake of being allowed to eat at the soup-kitchen. Does anyone know it? Speaking of vague and perhaps false memories. Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread line", and someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave away day-old bread at midnight to the poor. This set off something that had and still has me in a state of high annoyance, for I distinctly remember a woodcut from Harper's Weekly or Frank Leslie's showing this breadline, but I can't remember where I saw it. I have checked the most likely book thoroughly, and several others. Danged frustrating. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 17:14:49 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:14:49 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021016020734.046c14a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: #doesn't have handy. I am also familiar with "cutting didoes" in a sense #which I understand to mean "making fancy maneuvers"; but I can't remember #where I first saw this; maybe in Heinlein? I would have pictured a #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". -- Mark A. Mandel From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Oct 16 17:29:21 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:29:21 +0100 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: The term I know is 'souper', meaning 'a convert from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism'; such conversions, however nominal, were often achieved by the appeal of Protestant missionaries in Ireland handing out free soup, originally at the time of the great famine of 1845-7. Jonathon Green From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 20:04:16 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:04:16 -0400 Subject: totter, n. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021015225702.04704c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I'm curious about bones: might they be rechewed, rather than sold? And rags could be reworn or resewn. I'm reminded of Yeats' "rag and bone shop of the heart"--apropos of nothing. But more importantly, I have now run FixKlez.com on this computer and will do so on the infamous Compaq at home tonight. It's from Symantec, and should kill Bugbear too, I hope? I'll also try suggestions from Alice and Jim--many thanks! At 11:04 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> >#The New Shorter OED gives : (L19) "a rag & bone collector.." >> > >>... Howcum it's not in the Longer OED, then? > >Tut-tut, OED. > >Tut-tut, M-W. > >"Webster's 2nd" (ca. 1934, I think): "one who reclaims odds and ends from >refuse cans, dumps, etc., in order to sell them." Updated in "Webster's >3rd" to, uh, [nothing]. > >-- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 20:45:06 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:45:06 EDT Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/02 12:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread line", and > someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave away > day-old bread at midnight to the poor. That was me who cited the story. I believe that rather than submitting it as a fact, I described it as a legend and asked if anyone knew whether it was true or was a folk etymology. One detail---the bakery named Fleischmann is supposed to have become the company why today sell's Flesichmann's Yeast. It is a story I heard circa 1980 from someone long forgotten, and I was curious as to whether it were true. I remember the date because the story was told me some time before a woman I knew in the early 1980's married a man named Fleischman. I was able to find exactly one reference on the Internet: URL http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Books-F!ArticleDetail-6717 0,00.html which in turn quotes from Ross Wetzsteon _Republic of Dreams: Greenwich Village: The American Bohemia, 1910-1960_ New York: Simon & Schuster, 2002, ISBN: 0-684-86995-0 "in the 1880s, Fleischmann's Model Viennese Bakery on the corner of 11th Street and Broadway donated its unsold products to the poor at the end of every day, originating the phrase "bread line." " Considering that the quotation contains an improbably long list of things supposedly invented or orginated in Greenwich Village, I don't have good vibes as to the accuracy of this particular quote. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I've never heard of a "soup-kitchen Protestant" but considering the expression "rice Christian" from the other end of Eurasia I'm not inclined to doubt it. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 21:13:33 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:13:33 EDT Subject: Cutting Didoes Message-ID: I can't resist citing some Heinleiniana: connected universes: The "Future History" contains all Heinlein works until about 1945 not published under pseudonyms, plus "Time Enough For Love", "To Sail Beyond The Sunset", and maybe "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls" (which I haven't read.) It does not contain "The Number of the Beast" "Number of the Beast" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" share the character of Jubal Harshaw "Gulf" and "Friday" share a universe, or at least the character of Kettle-Belly "The Rolling Stones" and "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" share a universe, or at least the character of Hazel "Between Planets" and "Star Man Jones" share a universe, or at least the Horst-Milne-Conrad space drive ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ At some point in the 1970's a magazine (then perhaps still a fanzine) named "Locus" reported that Heinlein had had surgery to correct a blood circulation problem in his brain, and went on to state "Gone were all traces of what many had thought to be failing mental powers". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I read "Starship Troopers" in 1964, when I was finishing a project to read all of Heinlein's published work. I have not reread it since. However, for all its flaws, it had some vivid writing, and I can recall a fair amount of it to this day. Consider: - anyone reading the book purely for the action would be turned off by the lengthy and tedious philosophizing. - the philosophy was "controversial" when written (circa 1960) and in these post-Vietnam days has to be considered "politically incorrect" - the philosophy is so highly idiosyncratic that even in 1960 it must have found few if any believers among people smart enough to analyze philosophy (as opposed to those who simply regurgitate it) - as Alexei Panshin pointed out (in his book "Heinlein in Dimension") Heinlein a couple of years later wrote a book ("Glory Road") which succeeds in demolishing the philosophizing In other words, Heinlein with "Starship Troopers" created a tour-de-force---a book which annoyed everybody including himself! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A suggestion to get some use out of the book: take those people who are unable to distinguish between "militarist" and "Fascist" and punish them by forcing them to read the book. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Somewhere in "Starship Troopers" (I think the opening scene) Heinlein describes the soldiers as using an encrypted radio in which "the frequency wobbled under the control of an atomic clock" so that communications could not be intercepted. Such a technology was invented---and patented---during World War II, although it did not come into use until the 1980's. The technology is called "frequency hopping" (it is the most common form of "spread spectrum"). What very famous person was the inventor? - Jim Landau From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 21:35:40 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:35:40 -0400 Subject: "almost" Message-ID: Our building custodian was just in my office, and as we were talking about colds going around, she said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it"--or something very close to that (I was interrupted as soon as she left, so my STM is already suffering). Have others heard this? It's clearly similar to positive "anymore," though negative here--and in fact she may have used it in a positive construction; I can't recall for sure. But it was clearly sentence-initial. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 21:49:30 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:49:30 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes (gone OT) In-Reply-To: <6d.5b427.2adf307d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #I can't resist citing some Heinleiniana: # #connected universes: # #The "Future History" contains all Heinlein works until about 1945 not #published under pseudonyms, plus "Time Enough For Love", "To Sail Beyond The #Sunset", and maybe "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls" (which I haven't read.) # It does not contain "The Number of the Beast" # #"Number of the Beast" and "Stranger in a Strange Land" share the character of #Jubal Harshaw The premise of NotB and its sequels, To Sail and The Cat, is that the Burroughs device allows access to multiple possible universes, including the ones of literature. The characters visit and/or meet characters from Oz, Alice's Wonderland, Heinlein's own _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ and the Future History (Lazarus Long being a principal character in NotB & seqq.), and many others. The "Future History" universe may not contain NotB & seqq, but the reverse is certainly true. -- Mark A. Mandel From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Oct 16 21:57:02 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:57:02 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line Message-ID: I will not rest until I remember where I saw the illustration of the breadline. But I at lesast can confirm from the NYTimes Historical Database that there was one. The will of Louis Fleischmann, the baker, who left 1,000,000+, provided that "the midnight 'bread line' for the benefit of the poor will be continued by his executors. (NYTimes, October 4, 1904, p. 9) An earlier article, Headlined "Free Bread with Gospel" states of the minister involved: On his was to a restaurant he came upon a crowd of working men who were waiting in front of Fleischmann's cafe, in Broadway, for the distribution of bread that is made there to the needy. (NYTimes, September 16, 1896, p. 8) The minister had just left his church, which was on MacDougal street, so the cafe was south of 8th street. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James A. Landau" Date: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line > In a message dated 10/16/02 12:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > > > Last summer you folks were kicking about the expression "bread > line", and > > someone cited a late 19th C NYC baker named Fleischmann who gave > away> day-old bread at midnight to the poor. > > That was me who cited the story. I believe that rather than > submitting it as > a fact, I described it as a legend and asked if anyone knew > whether it was > true or was a folk etymology. > > One detail---the bakery named Fleischmann is supposed to have > become the > company why today sell's Flesichmann's Yeast. > > It is a story I heard circa 1980 from someone long forgotten, and > I was > curious as to whether it were true. I remember the date because > the story > was told me some time before a woman I knew in the early 1980's > married a man > named Fleischman. > > I was able to find exactly one reference on the Internet: > URL > http://events.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Books- > F!ArticleDetail-6717 > > 0,00.html > which in turn quotes from > Ross Wetzsteon _Republic of Dreams: Greenwich Village: The > American Bohemia, > 1910-1960_ New York: Simon & Schuster, 2002, ISBN: 0-684-86995-0 > > "in the 1880s, Fleischmann's Model Viennese Bakery on the corner > of 11th > Street and Broadway donated its unsold products to the poor at the > end of > every day, originating the phrase "bread line." " > > Considering that the quotation contains an improbably long list of > thingssupposedly invented or orginated in Greenwich Village, I > don't have good > vibes as to the accuracy of this particular quote. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I've never heard of a "soup-kitchen Protestant" but considering the > expression "rice Christian" from the other end of Eurasia I'm not > inclinedto doubt it. > > - Jim Landau > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 21:53:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:53:36 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: OATMEAL FOR BRAINS OATMEAL for brains? From this week's NEW YORK PRESS (www.nypress.com): MUGGER Russ Smith Oatmeal for Brains (...) Slipping on a Banana Reacting to Harry Belafonte?s crude remarks about Colin Powell last week?the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who could?ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle Tom?The Wall Street Journal?s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. Appearing on CNBC?s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nation?s finest journalists, said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for brains." (Google has about 70 "oatmeal" hits and 17,500 "shit" hits--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHORRILLANA Maybe not an AMerican food, but in GOURMET, OCtober 2002, pg. 49, col. 2: Twenty-five years ago, in the Chilean port of Valparaiso, in the kitchen of _J. Cruz M._, _chorrillana_ was born. The idea was to please a college crowd that was short on funds but long on appetities. The result was a hearty scramble of eggs, onions, and chopped beef, piled on a nest of french fries--and definitely meant to be shared. Over the years _chorrillana_ imitations sprang up throughout the city, but the original, served in platters for two ($5) or three ($7), is still the best. _Condell_ 1466 (032-21-12-25). From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Wed Oct 16 21:58:27 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:58:27 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line In-Reply-To: <82.22bc0833.2adf29d2@aol.com> Message-ID: This is not the first for "bread line" AND Fleischmann in the New York Times- and strangely the first hit is from February 2, 1901 and already - seemingly - has killed Mr. Fleischmann off, probably because he had a "paralytic stroke" in 1899ish - but he was still kicking in September. He dies in 1904. The New York Times, Sept. 25, 1901 "Louis Fleischmann, Philanthropist, Low." "Baker and Friend of Hungry May be Beyond Recovery." ESTABLISHED "BREAD LINE" ... ... "Mr. Fleischmann emigrated to this country in 1874. His brothers has been successful in the business of making compressed yeast, and in connection with this the idea of establishing a bakery, although he knew nothing of baking, came to him. He made his first venture in this direction at the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia where he established the "Vienna Model Bakery, " and captured high awards at the Fair for the excellence of his bread and rolls. Then he moved the business to New York, although he still maintains bakeries in Philadelphia and many others of the large cities. .... the bakery now covers a large area at East End Avenue and Eighty-first street. "The bread line is perhaps the most picturesque and one of the best-known charities in the world. The idea of the establishment came to Mr. Fleischmann when he noticed a crowd of hungry tramps standing over the grating at the bakery at Tenth Street and Broadway, scenting the hot loaves that were being turned out in the basement. Mr. Fleischmann offered to feed one of the men, and soon a line formed. It was then that he determined to give bread to every hungry man who would come for it. This was more than ten years ago, and a long time went until Mr. Fleischmann's family knew anything of the unique charity. The bread line grew until at night as many as 500 loaves were handed out to the hungry men." .... The piece has lots of cool historical info but too much to type right now - I can email the article to anyone who wants it at a private email. ADS-list will not accept the attachment. The Obit, on October 2, 1904 seems to have even more info and says, "little known facts about it's origin." And offers info on the introduction of coffee in winter, and jam on rolls if a whole loaf of bread wasn't available. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 16 22:02:41 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:02:41 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes (gone OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 05:49 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >The premise of NotB and its sequels, To Sail and The Cat, is that the >Burroughs device allows access to multiple possible universes, including >the ones of literature. The characters visit and/or meet characters from >Oz, Alice's Wonderland, Heinlein's own _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and >_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ and the Future History (Lazarus Long >being a principal character in NotB & seqq.), and many others. The >"Future History" universe may not contain NotB & seqq, but the reverse >is certainly true. > >-- Mark A. Mandel Intertextuality! From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 16 22:15:36 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:15:36 -0700 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: <6d.5b427.2adf307d@aol.com> Message-ID: > Somewhere in "Starship Troopers" (I think the opening scene) Heinlein > describes the soldiers as using an encrypted radio in which > "the frequency wobbled under the control of an atomic clock" so that > communications could not be intercepted. > > Such a technology was invented---and patented---during World > War II, although it did not come into use until the 1980's. The > technology is called "frequency hopping" (it is the most common > form of "spread spectrum"). What very famous person was the inventor? > > - Jim Landau That's an easy (if hard to believe) one. The answer is Hedy Lamarr. (The patent is in her real name, which I forget.) Everytime you use your cell phone, you have Hedy to thank. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 16 22:38:08 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:38:08 EDT Subject: Greetings from Malta Message-ID: In a message dated 10/15/2002 4:52:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > MALTESE FOOD: > > KNICKERBOCKER GLORY or KNICKER BOCKER GLORY--Found at least three places. > Three flavours of ice cream (chocolate, vanilla, pistachio), cream, and fruit > salad. Joanne "J. K." Rowling _Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's [sic] Stone_ Chapter Two, page 26 of the Scholastic Press hardback edition (ISBN 0-590-3530-3 "They ate in the zoo restaurant, and when Dudley ahd a tantrum because his knickerbocker glory didn't have enough ice cream on top, Uncle Vernon bought him another one and Harry was allowed to finish the first." - James A. Landau From pds at VISI.COM Wed Oct 16 22:45:04 2002 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:45:04 -0500 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 08:37 PM 10/15/2002 EDT, Dale Coye wrote: >If you want historical support here's W.S. Gilbert, in the Pirates of >Penzance with this rhyme: > >To gain a brief advantage you've contrived >But your proud triumph will not be long-lived. Scant support from a writer who in Patience rhymes "sympathy" and "lily" with "die". Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 16 22:47:22 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:47:22 -0400 Subject: -lived In-Reply-To: <004401c274b9$1a21a6e0$9f6ff4d1@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote: #Maybe my age is showing, or something, but I've always said "long-lived" #with a long I. Ipso ditto ;-). I've always understood it as = 'having a long life'. BTW... How many dictionaries persist in listing denominal putative verbs whose only claim to existence is an adjective "N + ed" meaning approx. 'having or provided with N'? -- Mark A. Mandel From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 17 00:02:53 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:02:53 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: >> Reacting to Harry Belafonte??_s crude remarks about Colin Powell last >> week??"the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who >> could??_ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle >> Tom??"The Wall Street Journal??_s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. >> Appearing on CNBC??_s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last >> Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nation??_s finest journalists, >> said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for brains." I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. Your brief quote from Gourmet, same message, looked fine. --Dodi Schultz From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 17 02:04:22 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:04:22 -0600 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> I would have pictured a >> #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot >> #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this >> #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). > I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". Actually, a "dado", at least in the context of carpentry, refers to a straight wide groove cut into the wood. Nothing fancy about it. -- Scott Swanson From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 17 02:23:35 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:23:35 -0600 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana (technical) In-Reply-To: <200210162003_MC3-1-15E6-BD97@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Barry's msg shows up encoded in the "utf-8" character set. Which translates on my machine approximately as on Dodi's (her mailer used ISO-8859-1 encoding, which is a reasonable standard for this list) Barry, travelling in the wilds of Malta, is no doubt at the mercy of whatever default is set on the system from which he sends. Do any of YOU know into which character set YOUR emails are encoded by default?? On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: > > >> Reacting to Harry Belafonte??_s crude remarks about Colin Powell last > >> week??"the singer essentially said the Secretary of State, a man who > >> could??_ve won the presidency had he chosen to run, was an Uncle > >> Tom??"The Wall Street Journal??_s Dorothy Rabinowitz said it best. > >> Appearing on CNBC??_s WSJ Editorial Board with Stuart Varney last > >> Friday night, Rabinowitz, one of the nation??_s finest journalists, > >> said she was sick of aging left-wingers possessing "oatmeal for > brains." > > I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination > of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. > > Your brief quote from Gourmet, same message, looked fine. > -- Scott Swanson From adl.list at RPWALTERS.COM Thu Oct 17 05:59:01 2002 From: adl.list at RPWALTERS.COM (Edgar Degas) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:59:01 -0700 Subject: Almost In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021016173025.00b8ba08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Is the custodian from Milwaukee? This has a Wisconsinite flavor. >From Beverly Flanigan on 16 Oct 2002: > She said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it" From conversa at IAC.NET Thu Oct 17 12:22:07 2002 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:22:07 -0400 Subject: Sevis system Message-ID: Hello everyone, We signed up for the INS/SEVIS system to issue I-20's on the Sevis system. We were contacted by INS yesterday and told they will stop by to audit our school. Has anyone had this audit? What can I expect? Gerry Thiemann Conversa Language Center Cincinnati, Ohio 513-651-5679 From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Thu Oct 17 12:41:25 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:41:25 +0200 Subject: Veal parmigiano Message-ID: This maybe comes a bit late, but as it seems that to many Americans (as well as many Europeans), the word "parmigiano" is automatically associated with Parma cheese, I may perhaps expound a little: "Parmigiano" does not nessecarily imply that the dish contains Parma cheese, but can very well have the meaning "from Parma" or "as the parmigiani do it" - like e.g. "Veal milanese" "Vitello Parmigiana Veal Scaloppini Breaded and Baked with Mozzarella and Fresh Tomato Sauce." as one of the Net's many recipe pages has it. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 12:54:49 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:54:49 -0400 Subject: valley talk Message-ID: Today's NY Times has a column with the paragraph "The valley's 1.3 million residents, half of them Hispanic, are a third of L.A.'s population, covering more than half the sprawling city's territory. They have their anthem (Gene Autry's "I'm gonna settle down and never more roam, and make the San Fernando Valley my home"). For a generation, "valley girls" have had their own dialect, leading the nation's teenagers into punctuating their every phrase with the interjection of hesitation ? like ? and permeating America's airwaves with the exclamation Omigod!" Is there any support for the connection between "valley talk" and Spanish this paragraph hints at? _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 17 13:06:40 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:06:40 -0400 Subject: Soup Kitchen (1831) & Bread Line In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021016173015.00a47a10@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: CORRECTION: That should read Sept 25, 1904, and sorry for the typos I was trying to get it typed and sent before 6:00pm. So the stroke was in 1902ish. My Bad. Katy At 05:58 PM 10/16/02 -0400, you wrote: >This is not the first for "bread line" AND Fleischmann in the New York >Times- and strangely the first hit is from February 2, 1901 and already - >seemingly - has killed Mr. Fleischmann off, probably because he had a >"paralytic stroke" in 1899ish - but he was still kicking in September. He >dies in 1904. > >The New York Times, Sept. 25, 1901 "Louis Fleischmann, Philanthropist, >Low." "Baker and Friend of Hungry May be Beyond Recovery." ESTABLISHED >"BREAD LINE" ... > >... "Mr. Fleischmann emigrated to this country in 1874. His brothers has >been successful in the business of making compressed yeast, and in >connection with this the idea of establishing a bakery, although he knew >nothing of baking, came to him. He made his first venture in this direction >at the Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia where he established the >"Vienna Model Bakery, " and captured high awards at the Fair for the >excellence of his bread and rolls. Then he moved the business to New York, >although he still maintains bakeries in Philadelphia and many others of the >large cities. .... the bakery now covers a large area at East End Avenue >and Eighty-first street. > "The bread line is perhaps the most picturesque and one of the > best-known >charities in the world. The idea of the establishment came to Mr. >Fleischmann when he noticed a crowd of hungry tramps standing over the >grating at the bakery at Tenth Street and Broadway, scenting the hot >loaves that were being turned out in the basement. Mr. Fleischmann offered >to feed one of the men, and soon a line formed. It was then that he >determined to give bread to every hungry man who would come for it. This >was more than ten years ago, and a long time went until Mr. Fleischmann's >family knew anything of the unique charity. >The bread line grew until at night as many as 500 loaves were handed out to >the hungry men." .... > > >The piece has lots of cool historical info but too much to type right now - >I can email the article to anyone who wants it at a private email. ADS-list >will not accept the attachment. > >The Obit, on October 2, 1904 seems to have even more info and says, "little >known facts about it's origin." And offers info on the introduction of >coffee in winter, and jam on rolls if a whole loaf of bread wasn't available. > >Katy > > >Kathleen E. Miller >Research Assistant to William Safire >The New York Times From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 15:03:14 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:03:14 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210162003_MC3-1-15E6-BD97@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Barry, here's how your quoted Russ Smith paragraph appeared on my screen: [...] #I don't know what anyone else sees, but I'm seeing a very odd combination #of characters where there ought to be apostrophes or em dashes. Same here. My guess: copied and pasted in from a word processing document or possibly a web page. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 15:06:32 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:06:32 -0400 Subject: Cutting Didoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Scott Swanson wrote: #On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #>> I would have pictured a #>> #carpenter cutting fancy curlicues, the sense then extended to a pilot #>> #making fancy loops. But I don't recall whether I ever really saw this #>> #etymology asserted (even if I did, it might not have any truth). # #> I thought of that too, but I'm pretty sure that's "dado". # #Actually, a "dado", at least in the context of carpentry, refers to a #straight wide groove cut into the wood. Nothing fancy about it. Ah, but you see, I never knew what "dado" actually meant. I saw it in reference to decorative woodwork and assumed it was decorative. Then the situation with "cutting didoes" was similar enough to create a false association. And similarly, I guess, for the person I was responding to. -- Mark A. Mandel From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 16:37:21 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:37:21 -0400 Subject: Sevis system In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021017082021.04804da0@mail.iac.net> Message-ID: You might send this message to Charlie Mickelson, head of our Ohio Program of Intensive English (mickelso at ohiou.edu). He has to deal with I-20s all the time. Or call him at 740-593-4575. At 08:22 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >We signed up for the INS/SEVIS system to issue I-20's on the Sevis >system. We were contacted by INS yesterday and told they will stop by to >audit our school. Has anyone had this audit? What can I expect? > >Gerry Thiemann >Conversa Language Center >Cincinnati, Ohio >513-651-5679 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 16:51:01 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:51:01 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <56344.3243833689@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Not likely, though you're right--the article seems to imply a connection. The Hispanic English of the area (and northern California too) has been studied by Carmen Fought and Norma Mendoza-Denton (in separate publications). Carmen notes some crossover influence from Valley Talk, but Norma plays it down. HispEng has its own distinctive features, but of course they're not as widely known and are often just thought of, by the public, as "learner English" even after several generations of U.S. residence and native speaker acquisition of English. Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. At 08:54 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Today's NY Times has a column with the paragraph "The valley's 1.3 million >residents, half of them Hispanic, are a third of L.A.'s population, >covering more than half the sprawling city's territory. They have their >anthem (Gene Autry's "I'm gonna settle down and never more roam, and make >the San Fernando Valley my home"). For a generation, "valley girls" have >had their own dialect, leading the nation's teenagers into punctuating >their every phrase with the interjection of hesitation ? like ? and >permeating America's airwaves with the exclamation Omigod!" > >Is there any support for the connection between "valley talk" and Spanish >this paragraph hints at? > >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 17 16:51:54 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:51:54 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Mark Mandel, who saw the same oddities I did in Barry Popik's message quoting NYPress's Russ Smith, writes: >> My guess: copied and pasted in from a word processing document or >> possibly a web page. Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download straight plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 17 17:16:15 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:16:15 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021017124107.032c0b28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > >Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. > That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 17 18:03:20 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:03:20 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 01:16 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >> >>Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >>generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >>my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. >That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. > >larry Thanks! I believe Birch Moonwomon has also written on it. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 17 20:11:25 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a "bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean "poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that "the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from a biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from 1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent his life with "people close to the bread line." The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. It seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members had estates in the same village in the Cat! skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 17 21:10:14 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:10:14 -0700 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: George Thompson >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Bread Line >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 > >Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, >the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and >Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to >whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the >line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 >years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a >"bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat >the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. > >Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as >applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at >other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean >"poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll >be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that >"the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from a >biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect >that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large >fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a >figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from >1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent his >life with "people close to the bread line." > >The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were >a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, >who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of >yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail >baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. >He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, >brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the >Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He >died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis >Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and >died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and >several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. It >seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members >had estates in the same village in the Cat! >skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in >acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an >article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a >depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African >Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 17 22:19:52 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:19:52 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210171252_MC3-1-1636-4800@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download straight #plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this #happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) The difficulty with that is that one's own interface may be the one that the gibberish was designed for. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 18 00:58:10 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:58:10 -0400 Subject: valley talk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021017140242.0332eb28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:03 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >At 01:16 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>At 12:51 PM -0400 10/17/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>> >>>Frank Zappa's daughter has apparently studied Valley Girl Talk (her >>>generation shaped it, after all), but I can't pull up a ref. off the top of >>>my head. Other sociolinguists have too, of course. >>That's Moon Unit Zappa, if you're doing a search. >> >>larry > >Thanks! I believe Birch Moonwomon has also written on it. And in today's political column (NYT A33), Safire talks about how if San Fernando Valley does in fact secede from L.A. they're already set with their own linguistic identity. (Fer sher. Grody to the max. Like, omigod.) Of course, the claim that 'for a generation, "valley girls" have had their own dialect' may be a bit of an exaggeration... L From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 01:30:12 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:30:12 -0700 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Mark A Mandel >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:19:52 -0400 > >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >#Mine, too (although with most Web pages, it's possible to download >straight >#plaintext). In any event, may I suggest to all for the future: When this >#happens, do a bit of corrective editing before posting to the list. ;-) > >The difficulty with that is that one's own interface may be the one that >the gibberish was designed for. > >-- Mark A. Mandel _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 18 05:01:33 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:01:33 -0400 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana Message-ID: Anybody know why this list is getting "hotphotos" spam? From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Oct 18 08:46:16 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:46:16 +0100 Subject: Oatmeal for Brains; Chorrillana In-Reply-To: <200210180102_MC3-1-1623-50CF@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Dodi Schultz wrote in the wee small hours: > Anybody know why this list is getting "hotphotos" spam? Messages seem to be automatically triggered by despatch of messages through the list. Since the messages are getting back to the list, and the list allows only members to post, it should mean that the supposed sender of these messages, lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM, is subscribed. (That doesn't necessarily mean she is the real sender, of course. Messages are originating at IP address 24.207.214.42, which is one of those alloted to Charter Communications.) What is causing the messages to be spewed is less obvious - it doesn't seem to be a virus. Perhaps the Hotmail address ought to be served out for a while to allow enquiries to take place without further inconvenience to list members? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 18 13:19:18 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:19:18 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 In-Reply-To: <20021018125627.GB206@panix.com> Message-ID: The obit for Allen Walker Read starts out with his work on OK, but goes on to mention a number of his other achievements in scholarship. It has a few nice quotes from him, and speaks of his career pretty thoroughly. I encourage you all to read it, at (www.nytimes.com) click on "Obituaries" in the column to the left. We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, and the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. Frank Abate From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 12:56:27 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:56:27 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: >From Barry: ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- Allen Walker Read, age 96, has passed away. The story is in the obituaries in today's NEW YORK TIMES. (www.nytimes.com) The obituary notes that he was an "expert on O.K.," but this wrongly overshadows his many other achievements. It's a shame that no one from the ADS was interviewed. (There is a quote from H.L. Mencken.) People should know about the ADS volume of Read's work. Sorry for the bad news. (Please send to ADS-L--Barry Popik, who can't send AOL mail.) ----- End forwarded message ----- From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 15:32:10 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:32:10 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with _stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of _press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, _tell_ doesn't work here for me. I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. Any thoughts? Jesse Sheidlower From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 18 16:13:50 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:13:50 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, ? 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a ?crit : > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > and > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal relationship with him. Grant Barrett ADS Webmaster gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 18 16:16:32 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:16:32 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: jesse sheidlower reports the odd number agreement in "The stories the press tell are shaped..." and considers (a) the proximity of "stories", (b) notional plurality of "press", and (c) the -s ending of "press". i agree that the original example doesn't sound so bad. but things get *much* worse with singular "story": "The story the press tell is shaped..." since factors (b) and (c) aren't changed here, we're left with (a) - perhaps in combination with (d) an anticipation of the plural "are" immediately following "tell(s)" (and triggered by the earlier "stories"). it's possible to vary some of the factors independently: (a), (b), (c), no (d): The stories the press tell will be shaped... (a), (b), no (c), (d): The stories the internet tell are shaped... (a), no (b), (c), (d): The stories our wire service tell are shaped... the last two are unquestionably wretched for me, but the first might get past me, which suggests that the plurality of "stories" is the most important factor (though the others might help some). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From P2052 at AOL.COM Fri Oct 18 16:31:23 2002 From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:31:23 EDT Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: As with that of other collectiv(ish) nouns, the agreement would depend on the intent of the speaker/writer. For example, if the intent is the following, then, the plural verb, "are," is okay: "The stories the [members of the] press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." In this case, the members of the press are considered as acting separately or individually, not as a unit or unified group. If, however, the intent is that "the press" is functioning as a unit, then, "The stories the press tell[s] are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." is correct. While I've usually considered "the press" singular, in the example above, I'd be inclined to think plural, for such terms as "stories" and "conspiracy," sugggest a number of individual partipicants whose collective products or actions evoke a similar theme. P-A-T From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 18 16:38:50 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: I have known Allen Walker Read since the Sixties. I admired him for his scholarship, his gentlemanly ways, and his appreciation of my work shown by his presence (Fred Cassidy was another such appreciator) at any paper I read to the ADS, ANS, MLA, and other learned societies. I was hoping he would publish something more solid than occasional papers, but I'm sure John Algeo will be doing justice to his Dictionary of Briticisms. I am sorry to see Allen go. T. M. Paikeday, lexicographer www.paikeday.net . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Barrett" To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 > Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, ? 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a ?crit : > > > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > > and > > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > > Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can > post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal > relationship with him. > > Grant Barrett > ADS Webmaster > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 18 16:53:25 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >plural sense rather than the 's' business. dInIs >I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >are shaped..." > >This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >Any thoughts? > >Jesse Sheidlower -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 17:00:56 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:00:56 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >plural sense rather than the 's' business. Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some explanation of why there's this discrepancy. Jesse Sheidlower From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 18 17:14:50 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:14:50 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower asks about subject-verb agreement: >> The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a >> 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This sentence >> was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it >> should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." >> >> This objection seems to be correct. It is. >> However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is >> _not_ jarring to me... Certainly one would never write, "The stories >> Smith tell are shaped..." ... I'm thinking that it might be the >> influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural >> ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press tell >> are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >> Any thoughts? I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a plural noun that is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and that *would* require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. (Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press release.") --DS From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 18 17:25:59 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <200210181315_MC3-1-1661-F7F3@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press >release.") Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, still newspapers? Bethany From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Oct 18 17:39:33 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018170056.GA14804@panix.com> Message-ID: I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the source. Was it on this list? At 01:00 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >explanation of why there's this discrepancy. > >Jesse Sheidlower From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Oct 18 17:44:42 2002 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:44:42 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: > I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > doesn't seem obviously wrong. > The influence of the -s ending was exactly what ran through my head as I read through your post, though maybe it's the combination of the -s AND the notional plurality of the noun AND the grammatical plurality of the inverted direct object that do the trick; taken together, they throw my brain into enough confusion to let the solecism slip by unnoticed. I suppose there must be a limit to one's linguistic short- term memory just as there is to one's mathematical memory (as, for example, when you're quoted too many numbers to remember). Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 18 18:04:11 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:04:11 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <200210181315_MC3-1-1661-F7F3@compuserve.com> Message-ID: > I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a > plural noun that > is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and > that *would* > require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days > to refer to > those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > (Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > release.") I would disagree with this last. "Press" has long been used to denote the profession of journalism, regardless of the medium (e.g., press corps, press secretary). The term "media," however, has a broader denotation, including entertainment and not just journalism (although that distinction is becoming increasingly difficult to make). When conservatives rail about the "liberal media," they are including Hollywood as well as news outlets. Aaron Sorkin and Dan Rather are cursed in one fell breath. As far as Jesse's original question goes, I think it's just the old collective noun dilemma. Which one sounds right is more a question of local idiom, with the general trend in American English going toward the singular form. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Oct 18 18:43:16 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page 49 column 2: "The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate volumes, from 1884 to 1928." No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. - Jim Landau From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Fri Oct 18 18:52:53 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:52:53 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <84.2cf0b7.2ae1b044@aol.com> Message-ID: At 02:43 PM 10/18/02 -0400, you wrote: > From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 18 18:56:16 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:56:16 -0400 Subject: FW: OED first edition Message-ID: The reason for the "125 separate volumes" was that the early stuff was done in fascicles, each amounting to several signatures at most, so like largish magazines. The fascicles were later assembled into true volumes and bound as books. The reviewer at Byte was apparently unaware of fascicles. Frank Abate At 02:43 PM 10/18/02 -0400, you wrote: > From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 18 18:59:17 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:59:17 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018133722.02db0118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: The most famous example of this British usage is "H.M. Government are..." On a trip through Heathrow Airport many years ago I was struck by an ad for a construction firm. The firm's name was Billy something--Barnham? Something like that. The ad said: "Billy Barnham built this terminal. Billy Barnham build everywhere." I've never run across a variety of AE where this would be acceptable. I don't know whether the British also say, "the press are..." or whether Jesse's quote came from a British or an American source. Peter Mc. --On Friday, October 18, 2002 1:39 PM -0400 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to > words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I > can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the > source. Was it on this list? **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 18 19:06:50 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:06:50 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021018144956.00a482e0@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate > >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > > > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > > > - Jim Landau > > Is that true? - in my (well his) copy - the A volume is dated 1888 and the > V-Z 1928 and there's only 20 of them + a Supplement and Bibliography. I assume what was meant was "125 facsicles." Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 18 20:03:55 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:03:55 -0700 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: > I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > _press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > _tell_ doesn't work here for me. Could the reason be that "press" can't take the plural? There aren't "presses" (in the sense of the profession of journalism, obviously there can be multiple machines or publishing houses). So there is ambiguity in whether or not the collective noun takes the singular or plural. There can, on the other hand, be "teams" or "juries." Since there can be multiple collectives in these cases, there is a more acute need for subject-verb agreement. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 20:06:32 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:06:32 -0400 Subject: OED first edition In-Reply-To: <84.2cf0b7.2ae1b044@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 02:43:16PM -0400, James A. Landau wrote: > >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, page > 49 column 2: > > "The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate > volumes, from 1884 to 1928." As others have pointed out, this should read "fascicles". There's a detailed and useful discussion of the printing history of the OED by Jenny McMorris, the OED Archivist, printed as Appendix I of Lynda Mugglestone's _Lexicography and the OED._ It's complicated, but the OED was issued in various types of small publications, including fascicles, parts, and volumes. The word "fascicle" is used in a broad way to refer to both fascicles proper and parts. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 18 20:09:33 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:09:33 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <20021018153209.GA14031@panix.com> Message-ID: >I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >_tell_ doesn't work here for me. RHUD under "press(1)": <<34. _(often used with a pl. v.)_ a group of news reporters, or of news reporters and news photographers: _The press are in the outer office, waiting for a statement._>> The plural seems surely OK to me (as well as to the RH editors, I guess) if "the press" is in this sense. As for "the team": I would (myself) tend to refer to a soccer/football team in the singular in most contexts, but apparently the plural is more common (but not universal) with team names, e.g., "Manchester United were formed in 1878", "Brazil are the most popular team". I was struck by the prevalence of such usage during the World Cup news coverage recently. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 20:24:37 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 16:24:37 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018133722.02db0118@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 01:39:33PM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to > words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I > can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the > source. Was it on this list? It's a general feature of British English that various kinds of group nouns tend to take plural concord, e.g. "British Telecom are profitable this quarter", "Manchester United have won the FA cup" [the frequency of this sort of construction in World Cup coverage, mentioned by another posted, is surely due to the reporters' being British in the examples in question], "The government are divided about how to...", etc. But the putatively increased acceptability of the "press tell" example is not, I think, due to a British English influence. Jesse Sheidlower From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:28:24 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: Bread Line Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Lisa O'Brien >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Bread Line >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:10:14 -0700 > >Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your >message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. >I >think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more >pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of >it...I don't really know how to do that. >http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am >still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, >and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day >even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > >>From: George Thompson >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: Bread Line >>Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:25 -0400 >> >>Historically, the "bread-line" question stands thus. In the late 19th C, >>the New Model Viennese Bakery, run by Louis Fleischmann, on Broadway and >>Twelfth street, was in the practice of giving day-old bread at midnight to >>whoever applied for it. The NYTimes of September 16, 1896 mentions the >>line of people waiting for bread. The bakery had been around for up to 20 >>years before 1896. The obvious descriptive term for this was a >>"bread-line", but the Times did not use these two words, and I can't beat >>the 1900 citation in DAE, DAmer and OED. >> >>Philologically, there is the question of when the term "bread-line" as >>applied to this nightly line-up of the hungry poor, or similar lines at >>other places or in other cities, came to be used figuratively, to mean >>"poverty", &c., as in "if that's the way he throws his money around, he'll >>be on the bread-line before long." OED has a quotation from 1909, that >>"the republic" was "chained to the bread line", but it seems to come from >>a >>biography of McCormick, the inventor of the reaping machine, and I suspect >>that the author had in mind that until McCormick made harvesting of large >>fields of grain efficient, the bread supply was inadequate -- so, a >>figurative use, but not the usual one. OED's 3rd and last quotation, from >>1929, is clearly what I have in mind: someone writes that he had spent >>his >>life with "people close to the bread line." >> >>The historical question is confused by the fact that the Fleischmanns were >>a large family of brothers. The chief seems to have been Charles Louis, >>who lived in Cincinnati, and who began as a cultivator and supplier of >>yeast to bakers and brewers. It appears that he didn't get into retail >>baking and running a cafe & bakery until the Chicago World's Fair of 1876. >>He was also an inventor, particularly of contrivances useful in baking, >>brewing, distilling, &c. He's the one who has biographies in the >>Dictionary of American Biography and the American National Biography. He >>died in 1897. The DAB and ANB name only one of his brothers, but Louis >>Fleischmann, the New Yorker who ran the bakery and gave out the bread and >>died in 1904, evidently was another. But it's odd that his obituary and >>several related stories in the Times don't connect him with his family. >>It >>seems that both Charles Louis and Louis, as well as other family members >>had estates in the same village in the Cat! >>skill's, and the grateful citizenry renamed the village Fleischmann's in >>acknowledgement. I checked America: History & Life, but found only an >>article about Max Fleischmann, one of C. L.'s sons, who was involved in a >>depression-era food program in Santa Barbara. >> >>GAT >> >>George A. Thompson >>Author of A Documentary History of "The African >>Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:29:50 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:29:50 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >dInIs > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. >> >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >>are shaped..." >> >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. >> >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. >> >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >>Jesse Sheidlower > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:30:16 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:30:16 -0700 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:38:50 -0400 > >I have known Allen Walker Read since the Sixties. I admired him for his >scholarship, his gentlemanly ways, and his appreciation of my work shown by >his presence (Fred Cassidy was another such appreciator) at any paper I >read >to the ADS, ANS, MLA, and other learned societies. I was hoping he would >publish something more solid than occasional papers, but I'm sure John >Algeo >will be doing justice to his Dictionary of Briticisms. I am sorry to see >Allen go. > >T. M. Paikeday, lexicographer >www.paikeday.net > > >. ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Grant Barrett" >To: >Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:13 PM >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 > > > > Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, ? 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a ?crit : > > > > > We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, > > > and > > > the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > > > > Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can > > post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal > > relationship with him. > > > > Grant Barrett > > ADS Webmaster > > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:31:06 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:31:06 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Dodi Schultz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:14:50 -0400 > >Jesse Sheidlower asks about subject-verb agreement: > > >> The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not by a > >> 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." This >sentence > >> was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is singular and thus it > >> should read, "The stories the press tells are shaped..." > >> > >> This objection seems to be correct. > >It is. > > >> However, the original, "The stories the press tell are shaped..." is > >> _not_ jarring to me... Certainly one would never write, "The stories > >> Smith tell are shaped..." ... I'm thinking that it might be the > >> influence of the -s ending of _press,_ which, though not a plural > >> ending, might suggest plurality enough that "The stories the press >tell > >> are shaped..." doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >> Any thoughts? > >I think you're mentally substituting the word *media*, a plural noun that >is often used in such constructions rather than "press" and that *would* >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press >release.") > >--DS _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:31:16 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:31:16 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Arnold Zwicky >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:16:32 -0700 > >jesse sheidlower reports the odd number agreement in "The stories the >press tell are shaped..." and considers (a) the proximity of >"stories", (b) notional plurality of "press", and (c) the -s ending of >"press". > >i agree that the original example doesn't sound so bad. but things >get *much* worse with singular "story": "The story the press tell is >shaped..." since factors (b) and (c) aren't changed here, we're >left with (a) - perhaps in combination with (d) an anticipation of the >plural "are" immediately following "tell(s)" (and triggered by the >earlier "stories"). > >it's possible to vary some of the factors independently: > (a), (b), (c), no (d): The stories the press tell will be shaped... > (a), (b), no (c), (d): The stories the internet tell are shaped... > (a), no (b), (c), (d): The stories our wire service tell are shaped... >the last two are unquestionably wretched for me, but the first might >get past me, which suggests that the plurality of "stories" is the >most important factor (though the others might help some). > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:05 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:05 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: P2052 at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:31:23 EDT > >As with that of other collectiv(ish) nouns, the agreement would depend on >the >intent of the speaker/writer. > >For example, if the intent is the following, then, the plural verb, "are," >is >okay: > >"The stories the [members of the] press tell are shaped not by a 'liberal >agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >In this case, the members of the press are considered as acting separately >or >individually, not as a unit or unified group. > >If, however, the intent is that "the press" is functioning as a unit, then, >"The stories the press tell[s] are shaped not by a 'liberal agenda' or a >'right wing conspiracy' but by..." is correct. > >While I've usually considered "the press" singular, in the example above, >I'd >be inclined to think plural, for such terms as "stories" and "conspiracy," >sugggest a number of individual partipicants whose collective products or >actions evoke a similar theme. > > P-A-T _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:15 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:15 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Jesse Sheidlower >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:00:56 -0400 > >On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >explanation of why there's this discrepancy. > >Jesse Sheidlower _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:32:26 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:32:26 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Joanne M. Despres" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:44:42 -0400 > > > I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > > of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > > plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > > doesn't seem obviously wrong. > > >The influence of the -s ending was exactly what ran through my head >as I read through your post, though maybe it's the combination of the -s >AND the notional plurality of the noun AND the grammatical plurality >of the inverted direct object that do the trick; taken together, they >throw my brain into enough confusion to let the solecism slip by >unnoticed. I suppose there must be a limit to one's linguistic short- >term memory just as there is to one's mathematical memory (as, >for example, when you're quoted too many numbers to remember). > >Joanne Despres >Merriam-Webster _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:33:10 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:33:10 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 > >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > > >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to > >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > >release.") > >Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only >in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, >still newspapers? > >Bethany _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:33:20 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Grant Barrett >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:13:50 -0400 > >Le Friday, 18 Oct 2002, ? 09:19 America/New_York, Frank Abate a ?crit : > >>We shall miss him, but his truly awesome body of work, his good humor, >>and >>the examples he set for scholarship will always be with us. > >Would anyone like to make a few comments about Mr. Read which I can >post on the ADS web site? Perhaps you had a professional or personal >relationship with him. > >Grant Barrett >ADS Webmaster >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 21:34:52 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:34:52 -0700 Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "James A. Landau" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: OED first edition >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT > >>From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, >page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:32:30 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Get lost "babe." ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Dennis R. Preston" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > >dInIs > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. >> >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells >>are shaped..." >> >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. >> >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. >> >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. >> >>Any thoughts? >> >>Jesse Sheidlower > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Languages >740 Wells Hall A >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office - (517) 353-0740 >Fax - (517) 432-2736 _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:35:10 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:35:10 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: This is 7th solicitation within 3 minutes which I have received from this female virus. Help!! Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:25:59 -0400 > >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > > >require "tell." The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to > >those disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. > >(Smarter PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press > >release.") > >Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news only >in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, today, >still newspapers? > >Bethany _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 21:36:05 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: OED first edition Message-ID: 8th. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: OED first edition Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: "James A. Landau" >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: OED first edition >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:43:16 EDT > >From the review of the OED2 CD-ROM in the December 1993 _Byte_ magazine, >page >49 column 2: > >"The Oxford English Dictionary, or OED, was first printed as 125 separate >volumes, from 1884 to 1928." > >No wonder they decided to go to CD-ROM. > > - Jim Landau _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 22:11:13 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:13 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Paul Kusinitz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 > >Get lost "babe." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lisa O'Brien > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: Agreement question > > > Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw >your > message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about >it. I > think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some >more > pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of > it...I don't really know how to do that. > http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I >am > still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little >later, > and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day > even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Re: Agreement question > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > > > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's > >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >> > >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not > >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." > >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is > >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells > >>are shaped..." > >> > >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, > >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to > >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with > >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >> > >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >> > >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >>Any thoughts? > >> > >>Jesse Sheidlower > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >Professor of Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and Languages > >740 Wells Hall A > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office - (517) 353-0740 > >Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 18 22:11:45 2002 From: lisasmiles123 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lisa O'Brien) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:11:45 -0700 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Beverly Flanigan >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:39:33 -0400 > >I've read that British usage tends to give a plural, collectivist sense to >words like "press," along the lines Pat mentioned in another posting. I >can't think of other examples cited, though, and I can't recall the >source. Was it on this list? > >At 01:00 PM 10/18/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:53:25PM -0400, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" >> >are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the >> >plural sense rather than the 's' business. >> >>Yes, but at least in my variety of English, and the idiolects of >>others I've asked, "the stories the press tell" is more >>acceptable than "the stories the team tell", however acceptable >>the latter might be in other varieties. So I'm looking for some >>explanation of why there's this discrepancy. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 22:14:25 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:14:25 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lisa O'Brien To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:11 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw your message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about it. I think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some more pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of it...I don't really know how to do that. http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I am still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little later, and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa >From: Paul Kusinitz >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Agreement question >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:32:30 -0400 > >Get lost "babe." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lisa O'Brien > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: Agreement question > > > Hey there! Thanks for writing me back! You just made my day when I saw >your > message! I had one of those days today and I am not to thrilled about >it. I > think I am going to go pamper myself for awhile. Ok well here are some >more > pics of me, I would take the time to attach them, but come to think of > it...I don't really know how to do that. > http://www.hotphotopersonals.com/lisaspage/ Ok well I hope you think I >am > still pretty!! Teehee!! Ok well I will check back on here a little >later, > and see what we should do from here. Ok well, time for me to make my day > even better. See ya later babe!! xoxo Lisa > > > > > > > > > >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Re: Agreement question > >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:53:25 -0400 > > > >>Of course "the stories the team tell" or "the stories the jury tell" > >>are perfectly good English in some varieties, so I'd go for the > >>plural sense rather than the 's' business. > > > >dInIs > > > > > > > >>I was asked a question about subject-verb agreement, and it's > >>raised some questions for me that I'm not sure how to answer. > >> > >>The sentence was, "The stories the press tell are shaped not > >>by a 'liberal agenda' or a 'right wing conspiracy' but by..." > >>This sentence was objected to on the grounds that _press_ is > >>singular and thus it should read, "The stories the press tells > >>are shaped..." > >> > >>This objection seems to be correct. However, the original, > >>"The stories the press tell are shaped..." is _not_ jarring to > >>me, and I'm not sure why. It's not proximity concord with > >>_stories,_ because _press_ is directly next to _tell[s]_. > >> > >>I also don't think it's a case of notional plurality of > >>_press._ Certainly one would never write, "The stories Smith > >>tell are shaped..." But one would also never, with other > >>collective-ish nouns, write "The stories the team tell are > >>shaped..." or "The stories the jury tell are shaped..." > >>Even though these could also be regarded as notionally plural, > >>_tell_ doesn't work here for me. > >> > >>I'm thinking that it might be the influence of the -s ending > >>of _press,_ which, though not a plural ending, might suggest > >>plurality enough that "The stories the press tell are shaped..." > >>doesn't seem obviously wrong. > >> > >>Any thoughts? > >> > >>Jesse Sheidlower > > > >-- > >Dennis R. Preston > >Professor of Linguistics > >Department of Linguistics and Languages > >740 Wells Hall A > >Michigan State University > >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > >Office - (517) 353-0740 > >Fax - (517) 432-2736 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Oct 18 23:04:34 2002 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:04:34 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: <00a501c276f3$b868c680$07d90044@cx2185064b> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: >Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul, it would help if you would refrain from reposting all her messages to the list. Thanks, Bethany From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 18 23:08:23 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:08:23 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Thank You Bethany. You are the second person who has brought this to my attention. Something which I'd forgotten. Thank you. Paul K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bethany K. Dumas To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Agreement question On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Paul Kusinitz wrote: >Is there any legitimate and decent way to immobilize this solicitresse? Paul, it would help if you would refrain from reposting all her messages to the list. Thanks, Bethany From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 18 23:13:48 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:13:48 -0400 Subject: Offending poster Message-ID: The spam poster has been removed from the list. Sorry for the annoyance. Jesse Sheidlower From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 03:09:06 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:06 -0400 Subject: [bapopik@juno.com: FUI/FWI & DUI/DWI] Message-ID: >From Barry, in Malta. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- X-Original-From: bapopik at juno.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:31:36 GMT To: jester at panix.com Cc: Subject: FUI/FWI & DUI/DWI X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 From: bapopik at juno.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * F.U.I. is on the Drudgereport today. Another pilot got caught FUI (Flying Under the Influence). A Google Groups check shows also FWI (Flying While Intoxicated). Both have been around awhile. OED has neither FUI nor FWI. So I checked for the good old DUI and DWI. They're not there, either! Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? ----- End forwarded message ----- From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 03:09:28 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:09:28 -0400 Subject: [bapopik@juno.com: More Malta Musings] Message-ID: >From Barry. ----- Forwarded message from bapopik at juno.com ----- X-Original-From: bapopik at juno.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:09:51 GMT To: Jester at panix.com Cc: Subject: More Malta Musings X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 From: bapopik at juno.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=LINES_OF_YELLING,NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, SUPERLONG_LINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: L greetings again from Malta...This computer still won't let me reach the AOL "SEND" button on the right of the screen, so I'm using JUNO again...I apologize for the computer settings that showed up on copied text. I have oatmeal for brains...I have one more touring day (Saturday), and then I travel home on Sunday. I'll try to attend any NYC service for Allen Walker Read if it's given on Monday or later. Maybe David Shulman or others are interested in going. Please post if anyone has any info. Friday was Gozo day...Saturday is packed, so it looks like I won't make it to the National Library on this trip. OKey--name of a product by Gelati Stocchi. GOZO CHEESE SALAD--Lettuce, tomatoes, onion rings. GOZITAN BREAD GOZITANA PIZZA--mozzarella, tomatoes, salami, onions, ham, garlic, capers, olives. Seen at another place as tomato sauce, Maltese sausage, Gozo cheese, olives, onion, anchovies, capers and mozzarella. MALTIJA PIZZA--Seen many places now. Tomato sauce, mozzarella, Maltese sausages, pepperoni cheese, eggs, mushrooms, green pepper, and oregano. MALTESE FTIRA--gotta have this for lunch tomorrow. Seen everywhere, it can be "tomatoes, capers, tuna, olives," on Maltese bread. KINNIE--the local soft drink is made of bitter oranges. It wasn't to my taste. See www.kinnie.com. There is a local drink called "Kinnie Winnie"--Brandy, orange, Grand Marnier, Kinnie. BOMBETTE--"filled with spinach, mozzarella and ham." See www.cordina.com. The place dates back to 1837. FRULLATI--"mixed fresh fruit drinks," offered by JUSCAFE (which also has Smoothies). It's about the same. CHOCOLACCINO--"Cappucino-Panna-Chocolate," also by JUSCAFE. MALTESE COFFEE--with "tamakari/madlien." Found at many places. CHICAGO PEPPERONI--seen at one place. Why Chicago? BURGER KING--In the center of Malta, guarded by the Knights of Malta, is the "Burger King." THE FOOD & COOKERY OF MALTA (first printed in 1972) by Anne and Helen Caruana Galizia--This book has a bibliography, but there isn't a cookbook older than the 1960s in it. A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: "SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." MALTESE LANGUAGE SIGN AT THE BEACH: MHUX PERMESS TGHUM JEW TIXXEMMEX "TOPLESS" JEW GHARWIEN. NO NUDE OR TOPLESS SWIMMING AND SUNBATHING. (If they're going to prohibit Jewish women from going topless, I've got to re-think about moving here--ed.) ----- End forwarded message ----- From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 19 04:08:41 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:08:41 -0400 Subject: Agreement question Message-ID: Bethany Dumas notes: >> << The word *media* is--rightly--used these days to refer to those >> disseminating the news, since "press" suggests strictly print. (Smarter >> PR people have long used "news release" rather than "press release.") >> And asks: >> Interesting comment - are you suggesting that newspapers do not >> disseminate news? Or perhaps you mean that newspaper disseminate news >> only in print? But what about online versions of newspapers? Are they, >> today, still newspapers? No, I am saying that newspapers constitute a subclass of those instruments disseminating news. Yes, newspapers--those things sold on newsstands, made of paper--disseminate news only in print. Or more specifically, "the press" suggests news carriers that are created, um, on a *press*. The word *media* is more general and includes radio, television, the Internet.... Online versions of newspapers? No, they're not newspapers (as I would define the word). Sometimes they're online versions of the newspapers issued by their parent organizations. Sometimes they are not, and the online Gazette or Journal or Times may have stories that won't appear in the print parent until the next day or won't appear in the print edition at all. (And vice versa.) --Dodi Schultz From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 19 04:36:33 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:36:33 -0400 Subject: Cargo Cult Message-ID: The OED has 1949 for "cargo cult," but anthropologists have traced the term back further. From 1945, and believed to be the first use of the term in print: >>Stemming directly from religious teaching of equality, and its resulting sense of injustice, is what is generally known as "Vailala Madness," or "Cargo Cult." . . . In all cases the "Madness" takes the same form: A native, infected with the disorder, states that he has been visited by a relative long dead, who stated that a great number of ships loaded with "cargo" had been sent by the ancestor of the native for the benefit of the natives of a particular village or area. But the white man, being very cunning, knows how to intercept these ships and takes the "cargo" for his own use . . . .<< Norris Mervyn Bird, "Is There Danger of a Post-war Flare-up Among New Guinea Natives?" Pacific Islands Monthly 16(4, Nov. 1945): 69 - 70 (quoted in Lamont Lindstrom, Cargo Cult: Strange Stories of Desire from Melanesia and Beyond 15 - 16 (1993)). John M. Baker From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 09:33:00 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:33:00 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: Barry P noted: >> F.U.I. is on the Drudgereport today. Another pilot got caught FUI (Flying Under the Influence). A Google Groups check shows also FWI (Flying While Intoxicated). Both have been around awhile. OED has neither FUI nor FWI. So I checked for the good old DUI and DWI. They're not there, either! Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? << Both DUI and DWI are in the New Oxford American Dict, and I expect are also in other general American dicts. This is a fairly common occurrence, that OED should not report something that IS in the "current English" or synchronic-coverage dicts. OED has catching up to do, esp. with regard to American items, and esp. those that are more recent, say, latter half of the 20th c. and later. Also, I don't know OED's policy on coverage of abbreviations. Jesse? Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 09:53:53 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:53:53 -0400 Subject: soccer/football usages Message-ID: Doug W said: >> As for "the team": I would (myself) tend to refer to a soccer/football team in the singular in most contexts, but apparently the plural is more common (but not universal) with team names, e.g., "Manchester United were formed in 1878", "Brazil are the most popular team". I was struck by the prevalence of such usage during the World Cup news coverage recently. << This (_team_ as plural) is the case for soccer/"football" (Brit.), owing to the influence of the British mode of using certain group terms as collectives, construed as plurals. Esp. in the broadcasting of soccer, Brit. influence is apparent. My guess is that American sports announcers who do this learned it from listening to Toby Charles, who did the broadcasts of the German Football League (Bundesliga) for many years on TV (PBS, I think). I believe Charles was British, and if not so, he certainly learned his English from Brits. He had the expected British tendencies, with collectives-as-plurals and zero-as-nil, etc. At ESPN, the sportscasters now report soccer scores of zero (0) as "nil", following the Brit. mode. I think they do this tongue-in-cheek, but they do it. Noteworthy also is that in the US we often say "soccer team" and "soccer game", but that in UK "football club/side" (sometimes "team") and "football match" are more usual. In fact, I don't think "football game" is allowable in Brit. Eng. (at least, not for a "soccer game"), but I may be wrong. Maybe Michael Q can chime in on this. This may be one of the only areas in which British English has demonstrably influenced American English, with real evidence to show it. Frank Abate From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 19 10:50:33 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:50:33 -0400 Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) In-Reply-To: <96C1D9BE-E2B4-11D6-A71D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Replying to Grant Barrett's request for personal comments on Allen Walker Read: I knew of him before I first met him, as he was a mentor (at Columbia) of Larry Urdang. Larry always spoke of him in the most glowing terms. Then at the DSNA in Ann Arbor in 1985 I had the pleasure of meeting him, as we were both on our way to a paper. We had a pleasant conversation, and he seemed happy to hear about Larry and the work we were doing. I was in awe, because of what Larry had told me, from the fact that I knew he had written the entry on dictionaries for Britannica, and from his record of scholarship. For his part, he was as gracious and friendly to me as if I had been an old acquaintance. Allen was "just folks". Over the years I ran into him again at various meetings, or heard him deliver papers, even if I did not have a chance to actually say hello. As for his papers, he had an inimitable style. His delivery was fairly dry, but every once in a while he would throw in a zinger, and coming from that sort of style, it was even funnier than otherwise. His papers were also very clear and pointed, and backed by full evidence. He would deliver a paper from a set of large index cards, onto which he taped clippings he was going to use, with his own comments scribbled around them on the cards. It worked. I was so impressed by the eminent practicality of this approach that I have tried to adopt it myself, though I will never be in Allen's league as regards delivering a paper. One particularly memorable paper Allen gave was at an ADS meeting in NYC one year, where he was invited to give a special address. He re-read as a paper a story he had written about his waiting to receive his degree from an Oxford college. He had written this shortly after he took his degree at Oxford, in the late 20s, I believe. The story won an award at the time he first published it. To hear him read it was a great pleasure. The room at ADS was packed, and dead silent throughout, except for several interjections of laughter at the funny lines. This is one of the best paper experiences I can recall, and I expect others who were there would agree. That paper at ADS, as well as many others Allen wrote over the years, are now published in the volume just completed by ADS, edited by Richard Bailey and prepared for the printer by Charles Carson. If you don't have this book, get it. Many of Allen's papers here collected had never been in print before. It is worth noting that Allen is cited in the **very first** footnote of all in Mencken's groundbreaking study _The American Language_; see p. 3. The paper cited was published in 1933. That is by no means his earliest paper, however, and he continued to produce papers until just a few years ago. Some 70+ years of scholarship from one man -- what an astounding legacy of work! Finally, I had the enormous privilege of visiting the Reads at their apartment near Columbia, about two years ago. I was invited along by Dick Bailey, who was in NYC for a conference, and was going to visit the Reads to discuss the work (ongoing then, now complete) on two collections of Allen's papers, one on American names and the other on American language (noted above). At this meeting, I was able to see the enormous amount of collected material Allen and Charlotte had in their apartment (which they had been in since the late 1940s), basically the raw materials for scores of papers and other work over the decades, not to mention what appeared to be thousands of books. Charlotte, too (who died a few months back), was a noted scholar, and much of the material was hers. The Reads, who did not know me well at all, were very kind. I was able to take a few photos of them on that day. Allen was in poor health, but still flashed that grin. Also, Allen seemed quite proud of his recent listing in "Who's Who in Hell", a collection, then just out, with brief bio entries on noted folks who had openly expressed utter rejection of various forms of spiritualism and religion. [aside to Grant -- can you post photos? I have several of them scanned, and can send files in the format you require.] There might be more if I think further, but those are the high points that come to mind. Ave atque vale, AWR. Frank Abate From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 11:29:31 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:29:31 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Abigail Zitin of the OED's North American staff asked me to do some research on DWI in March of this year (she had noticed while working on DWB that there was no entry for DWI), so I suspect an entry for at least that one is in the works. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 19 12:19:43 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 08:19:43 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 19, 2002 at 07:29:31AM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote: > Abigail Zitin of the OED's North American staff asked me to do some > research on DWI in March of this year (she had noticed while working on > DWB that there was no entry for DWI), so I suspect an entry for at least > that one is in the works. Yes, that's right. Jesse Sheidlower OED From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Oct 19 12:58:58 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:58:58 -0500 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp Message-ID: Then there are the insulting DW's DWH= Driving While Hispanic DWP= Driving While Polish Insert any group you want to disparage. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Oct 19 13:17:04 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:17:04 -0400 Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) Message-ID: I would like to join Frank in his classical farewell "Ave atque vale" to Allen Walker Read. I am sure "senatus populusque romanus" join us. I did not have a chance to know Allen so well as Frank and others closer to New York did, but I will get a copy of the new compendium of his papers and writings. Allen had done me the honour of being one of the first to purchase a copy of my magnum opus in 1985. A small and quite solid work that I treasure is his _Classic American Graffiti_ ("Naturalia non sunt turpia") which I often use to regale friends and visitors innocent of linguistics and lexicography.with. Allen Walker Read was a giant in his field. When shall we see his like again? tom paikeday ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Abate" To: Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:50 AM Subject: personal comments on Allen Walker Read (LONG) > Replying to Grant Barrett's request for personal comments on Allen Walker > Read: > > I knew of him before I first met him, as he was a mentor (at Columbia) of > Larry Urdang. Larry always spoke of him in the most glowing terms. Then at > the DSNA in Ann Arbor in 1985 I had the pleasure of meeting him, as we were > both on our way to a paper. We had a pleasant conversation, and he seemed > happy to hear about Larry and the work we were doing. I was in awe, because > of what Larry had told me, from the fact that I knew he had written the > entry on dictionaries for Britannica, and from his record of scholarship. > For his part, he was as gracious and friendly to me as if I had been an old > acquaintance. Allen was "just folks". > > Over the years I ran into him again at various meetings, or heard him > deliver papers, even if I did not have a chance to actually say hello. As > for his papers, he had an inimitable style. His delivery was fairly dry, > but every once in a while he would throw in a zinger, and coming from that > sort of style, it was even funnier than otherwise. His papers were also > very clear and pointed, and backed by full evidence. He would deliver a > paper from a set of large index cards, onto which he taped clippings he was > going to use, with his own comments scribbled around them on the cards. It > worked. I was so impressed by the eminent practicality of this approach > that I have tried to adopt it myself, though I will never be in Allen's > league as regards delivering a paper. > > One particularly memorable paper Allen gave was at an ADS meeting in NYC one > year, where he was invited to give a special address. He re-read as a paper > a story he had written about his waiting to receive his degree from an > Oxford college. He had written this shortly after he took his degree at > Oxford, in the late 20s, I believe. The story won an award at the time he > first published it. To hear him read it was a great pleasure. The room at > ADS was packed, and dead silent throughout, except for several interjections > of laughter at the funny lines. This is one of the best paper experiences I > can recall, and I expect others who were there would agree. > > That paper at ADS, as well as many others Allen wrote over the years, are > now published in the volume just completed by ADS, edited by Richard Bailey > and prepared for the printer by Charles Carson. If you don't have this > book, get it. Many of Allen's papers here collected had never been in print > before. > > It is worth noting that Allen is cited in the **very first** footnote of all > in Mencken's groundbreaking study _The American Language_; see p. 3. The > paper cited was published in 1933. That is by no means his earliest paper, > however, and he continued to produce papers until just a few years ago. > Some 70+ years of scholarship from one man -- what an astounding legacy of > work! > > Finally, I had the enormous privilege of visiting the Reads at their > apartment near Columbia, about two years ago. I was invited along by Dick > Bailey, who was in NYC for a conference, and was going to visit the Reads to > discuss the work (ongoing then, now complete) on two collections of Allen's > papers, one on American names and the other on American language (noted > above). At this meeting, I was able to see the enormous amount of collected > material Allen and Charlotte had in their apartment (which they had been in > since the late 1940s), basically the raw materials for scores of papers and > other work over the decades, not to mention what appeared to be thousands of > books. Charlotte, too (who died a few months back), was a noted scholar, > and much of the material was hers. The Reads, who did not know me well at > all, were very kind. I was able to take a few photos of them on that day. > Allen was in poor health, but still flashed that grin. Also, Allen seemed > quite proud of his recent listing in "Who's Who in Hell", a collection, then > just out, with brief bio entries on noted folks who had openly expressed > utter rejection of various forms of spiritualism and religion. > > [aside to Grant -- can you post photos? I have several of them scanned, and > can send files in the format you require.] > > There might be more if I think further, but those are the high points that > come to mind. > > Ave atque vale, AWR. > > Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 14:05:30 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:05:30 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: <002401c2776f$4a4f9580$f906433f@paulz> Message-ID: At 7:58 AM -0500 10/19/02, paulzjoh wrote: >Then there are the insulting DW's >DWH= Driving While Hispanic >DWP= Driving While Polish > >Insert any group you want to disparage. Actually, the first of these spinoffs, DWB [while Black], was not intended to insult or disparage black drivers, but the police who stop them as an instance of racial profiling. The term itself, I'm pretty sure, was invented by black drivers experiencing this. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 19 14:08:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:08:20 -0400 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows Message-ID: Greetings from my last day in Malta. I visited the Blue Grotto (for which I call the Grew Blotto). Then I went to the catacombs and the cave of St. Paul. Many years ago, I had solved why Saul changed his name to Paul. The answer was so simple and revealed everything, but no one was going to believe me, so I did something simple instead like help solve the Big Apple. The letters in the name "Paul" equals "Sophia," or "Wisdom"...Nah, on to food. TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if "turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and chicken. BLUE HAWAII PIZZA--tomatoes, mozzarella, blue cheese, pineapple, ham, pimentos and oregano. CAFFE CORDINA--I saw another web site for this: http://vol.net.mt/caffecordina PREGNANT WINDOWS--Bars on windows that extend out at the bottom. OED? THE ITALIAN WHO WENT TO MALTA--A popular bit of Italian "dialect" on tourist stuff here. From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Oct 19 14:26:55 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:26:55 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI add In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the last 5 years, because the feds threatened cutting off waterway funds for states that didn't have them, most states have enacted BWI/BUI laws, boating while intoxicated or boating under the influence of drugs. rhk From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 19 14:27:42 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:27:42 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: <002401c2776f$4a4f9580$f906433f@paulz> Message-ID: yOn Sat, 19 Oct 2002, paulzjoh wrote: > Then there are the insulting DW's > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > DWP= Driving While Polish Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving while black' is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction from the DWB term. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM Sat Oct 19 15:06:41 2002 From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:06:41 -0400 Subject: Allen Walker Read dies, age 96 Message-ID: I loved the phrase "jubilance is an explanation for a lot of the things that happen in language," which the Times article took from a New Yorker piece, perhaps the one written by Michelle Stacey in 1989, mentioned earlier in the obit. I'd like to see the full quotation, but I can't find this New Yorker article. Can anyone provide the full quote or, better still, a link to the New Yorker article online? Thank you. Paul From Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM Sat Oct 19 15:07:29 2002 From: Rick at MOUSEHERDER.COM (Rick H Kennerly) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:07:29 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: |o| |o| > Then there are the insulting DW's |o| > DWH= Driving While Hispanic |o| > DWP= Driving While Polish |o| |o| Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving |o| while black' |o| is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial |o| profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, |o| unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction |o| from the DWB term. |o| Spent the years 76-86 policing down in San Antonio, and it was a common accusation Black drivers would hurl at the police back then, " What'd you stop me for...Driving While Black? That a crime in this state, too?" Most often whenever I'd hear that phrase, it was used by the subject of the stop. The pedestrian version was WWB, walking while Black. There was a similar Hispanic complaint that varied a bit, DWS (spic) or DWM (Mexican). Of course, traffic tickets (outside of traffic enforcement efforts--like radar traps) are really just the legal fig leaf most cops use to see who's in the car and what they're up to, just in case they turn up something that ends up in court. In the above situation, the driver probably thinks that the ticket he's getting for "No White Light Over License Plate" is pretty much the equivalent of Driving While Black. On the police side of the jargon, this incident would usually be described as a "felony _______ stop" (felony plate light stop, felony white light showing to the rear, etc.), which roughly translates to the car didn't belong in the area, there's something I don't like about the occupants, the license plate was out, and I had my weapon ready when I approached the car. rhk From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Sat Oct 19 15:17:06 2002 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:17:06 -0500 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp Message-ID: Insulting to blacks would be DWN > |o| > |o| > Then there are the insulting DW's > |o| > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > |o| > DWP= Driving While Polish > |o| > |o| Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving > |o| while black' > |o| is a phrase used by African-Americans and supporters to criticize racial > |o| profiling. I'm not quite sure what sense the terms above would make, > |o| unless they are related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction > |o| from the DWB term. > |o| > > Spent the years 76-86 policing down in San Antonio, and it was a common > accusation Black drivers would hurl at the police back then, " What'd you > stop me for...Driving While Black? That a crime in this state, too?" > > Most often whenever I'd hear that phrase, it was used by the subject of the > stop. The pedestrian version was WWB, walking while Black. There was a > similar Hispanic complaint that varied a bit, DWS (spic) or DWM (Mexican). > > Of course, traffic tickets (outside of traffic enforcement efforts--like > radar traps) are really just the legal fig leaf most cops use to see who's > in the car and what they're up to, just in case they turn up something that > ends up in court. In the above situation, the driver probably thinks that > the ticket he's getting for "No White Light Over License Plate" is pretty > much the equivalent of Driving While Black. > > On the police side of the jargon, this incident would usually be described > as a "felony _______ stop" (felony plate light stop, felony white light > showing to the rear, etc.), which roughly translates to the car didn't > belong in the area, there's something I don't like about the occupants, the > license plate was out, and I had my weapon ready when I approached the car. > > rhk > From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Oct 19 16:45:08 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:45:08 -0700 Subject: DUI/DWI /dwh/dwp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > yOn Sat, 19 Oct 2002, paulzjoh wrote: > > > Then there are the insulting DW's > > DWH= Driving While Hispanic > > DWP= Driving While Polish > > Are these really current and really insulting? DWB 'driving > while black' is a phrase used by African-Americans and > supporters to criticize racial profiling. I'm not quite > sure what sense the terms above would make, unless they are > related to jokes taking DW in a very different direction > from the DWB term. > > Fred Shapiro Here in the Bay Area, I've heard "driving while Asian" with some frequency in recent years. Unlike DWB, it most definitely is disparaging, referring to the belief that Asians have poor driving skills. I've never heard the initials, DWA, used in this context though, only the full phrase. It definitely takes the term in another direction from DWB. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Oct 19 16:42:00 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:42:00 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: >abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes: Barry P noted:... > Does the Barnhart Dictionary Companion have FUI/FWI and DUI/DWI? The abbreviation (initialism) DUI is an entry in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 7.2, c. 1992). DWI was treated in The Second Barnhart Dictionary of New English (c. 1980). Both are noted in The Barnhart New-Words Concordance (originally published in 1994). DWI was entered in 9,000 Words (c. 1983); it also appears in the major college dictionaries. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sat Oct 19 20:27:24 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:27:24 -0400 Subject: Almost In-Reply-To: <1034834341.3dae51a5c5c24@www.mailshell.com> Message-ID: No, she's from Athens County, in SE Ohio--lived here all her life. Anyone else? At 10:59 PM 10/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Is the custodian from Milwaukee? This has a Wisconsinite flavor. > > From Beverly Flanigan on 16 Oct 2002: > > > She said, "Almost you can't seem to get over it" From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Oct 19 20:50:43 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:50:43 EDT Subject: Coke and Pepsi Message-ID: Has anyone heard the phrase "coke and pepsi" to refer to a children's game in which the participants line up in two lines (called "Coke" and "Pepsi") and at an MC's command do ridiculous things? It's popular at bar/bat mitzvah parties here in the Atlantic City area. I've never heard of it anywhere else, so it could be the invention of some local person who does gigs as MC at bar mitzvah parties. - Jim Landau (just returned from a bar mitzvah dinner at which Coke and Pepsi was played) From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Oct 20 02:10:25 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:10:25 -0400 Subject: DUI/DWI and OED Message-ID: Both DUI and DWI *are* in the Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1998); the flying variants are not. --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 02:27:38 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:27:38 -0400 Subject: Agreement question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To the extent that "the press" can refer to a motley group of organizations and/or their individual representatives, many of them competing with each other and with different agendas, it makes sense to see them as telling plural diverse "stories" and for the diversity of those stories to support the diversity, and hence inherent plurality, of the press. This is IMHO not nearly so applicable to "the team". From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 02:47:50 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:47:50 -0400 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows In-Reply-To: <7644ECD0.65A31E7A.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # Greetings from my last day in Malta. # I visited the Blue Grotto (for which I call the Grew Blotto). Then I went to the catacombs and the cave of St. Paul. Many years ago, I had solved why Saul changed his name to Paul. The answer was so simple and revealed everything, but no one was going to believe me, so I did something simple instead like help solve the Big Apple. The letters in the name "Paul" equals "Sophia," or "Wisdom"...Nah, on to food. # #TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if #"turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor #Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and #chicken. Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 04:20:55 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:20:55 -0400 Subject: Smoke Nazi; Honey Ring; Calippo; Rock Cake; Pizza Rustica Message-ID: Only a few more hours left in Malta. O.T. VIRGINIA SNIPER--I have Sky News and Fox News and CNN International in my hotel here. Both Sky and Fox have ben covering the latest sniper shooting in Virginia for the past two+ hours. There is NOTHING about it on CNN. Not in the news ribbon at the bottom. Not in the headline newscast. NOTHING! CNN then broadcast a two-week-old Larry King interview with Madonna. "The King of Talk" added: "I think you'll be 'swept away' by this movie." Incredible. BLUE HAWAII "BLUE CHEESE"--I should have added that it was indeed "blue cheese," not "bleu cheese." Probably from the Blue Grotto. READREADREADREADREADREADREAD--A tourist in my group has a library bag that prints this word over and over. I didn't think about it much, but then Allen Walker Read died and I can't look at it the same way. SMOKE NAZI--The title of an editorial in Saturday's NEW YORK TIMES. "--Nazi" is not new, but "Smoke Nazi" might gain some frequency in NYC now. CALIPPO--Iced fruit roll-ups. Sold here in Malta. A web check shows that several manufacturers, such as Walls, make "Calippos." ROCK CAKE--A sweet in Malta. Looks like a "scone" to me. MALTESE FRUIT TART--With "dates, raisins, lemon and orange marmalade." Looks like an ordinary fruit tart to me. ALMOND BONES WINTER ICE CREAM--A cupcake made to look like an ice cream cone. CINNAMON VILLAGE BISCUITS MINTNIGHT--A flavor seen here. Not many web hits for it yet. HONEY RING--Sold many places. The Caffee Cordina packaging says: A traditional Maltese sweet made with black treacle, marmalade, orange peel, spices and honey. This Maltese specialty dates back to the 15th century and may be enjoyed with wine or as a dessert. PRICKLY PEAR WINE--Sold all over. It's pink. Zeppi's Bajtra Liqueurs sells "A Prickly Pear Liqueur produced from the traditional fruit of the Maltese Islands." PIZZA RUSTICA--Seen all over. One places has it as tomatoes, olive oil, anchovies, oregano, capers, and olives. Not in OED? PIZZA CAPRICIOSA--mozzarella, tomatoes, mushrooms, eggs, ham, and oregano. Also seen on many pizza menus. PIZZA NAPOLITANA--mozzarella, tomatoes, anchovies, oregano, capers. PIZZAS--One place sells Margherita, Peperoni, Rustica, Ai Funghi, Capricciosa, Calzone (Closed Pizza), Quattro Staioni, Quattro Formaggi, Vegetarian, Maltija, Mustina, Frutta di Mare. POVERTY, CHASTITY, AND OBEDIENCE--Sacred vows of the Knights of Malta and New York City administrative law judges. How do I apply to be a knight? From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Oct 20 05:24:29 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:24:29 -0700 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? Ooh, yes, and I think this is the first time I've seen it written. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Oct 20 06:51:11 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:51:11 -0500 Subject: Turducken; Blue Hawaii Pizza; Pregnant Windows Message-ID: > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > # Greetings from my last day in Malta. <> > # ...Nah, on to food. > # > #TURDUCKEN--About 1,300 hits on Google. Someone here asked me if > #"turducken" would make the ENCYCLOPEDIA. I don't know--chief editor > #Andrew SMith is the turkey guy. "Turducken" is turkey, duck, and > #chicken. To which Mark Mandel responded: > Anyone else remember the Churkendoose? Not me, but it looks like a relative of the "Alexander" of a song from the 1940s: "Half swan, half goose, Alexander is a swoose." My first reaction to "turducken" made a primary slice into "turd" and "ucken", followed by a second split between the noun "uck" and a verbalizing suffix "-en". Hence "turducken": a label for the process of saying "uck" when you see a turd. Before anybody asks, AFIK this interpretation of "turducken" is my own invention. Now that I thunk it up, however, I would suggest finding some other word if you're tempted to put the portmanteau word on a menu. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! P.S.: Lest I prompt an attack of Wild Prescriptivists from Outer Space, the "Not me" with which I began was originally written "Not I". I just thought that was too PAAAC (P triple A C), our family putdown abbreviation for "pedantic accuracy at all costs". From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 08:04:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 04:04:31 -0400 Subject: Turducken (1980, by Paul Prudhomme) Message-ID: A quick check of USPTO trademark records show that "Turducken" has a first use of 1980-11-27 by Paul Prudhomme, a/k/a K-Paul's Louisiana Kitchen. It looks like it makes the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD, in my opinion. I didn't check Mark's concoction--gotta run! From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Oct 20 08:56:14 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 01:56:14 -0700 Subject: Quote of the month Message-ID: I thought this would interest some of our folk who are interested in Neg attraction to indefinites: "Everyone didn't know where he was going." -- Hal Pastner, high school coach of UA basketball recruit Ndudi Ebi Arizona Daily Wildcat, Wed., October 2, 2002, p. 9. From Vocabula at AOL.COM Sun Oct 20 12:40:18 2002 From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:40:18 EDT Subject: Allan Metcalf in TVR Message-ID: In the November issue of The Vocabula Review (www.vocabula.com): Penman -- Joseph Epstein The Myth of Gaps -- Allan Metcalf Playing with a Full Deck -- Richard Lederer Get 'em to Read Real Books -- Susan Elkin Sound Off: Lawyers vs. Language: Kelly Cannon Two Poems -- Laura Cherry The Elder Statesman: The Proud and the Pitiful -- Clark Elder Morrow The Last Word: What's so Funny? -- Christopher Orlet Grumbling About Grammar Elegant English On Dimwitticisms Clues to Concise Writing Scarcely Used Words Oddments and Miscellanea On the Bookshelf Letters to the Editor The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com Robert Hartwell Fiske Editor and Publisher The Vocabula Review www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review A measly $4.95 a year www.vocabula.com ______________________ The Vocabula Review 10 Grant Place Lexington, MA 02420 United States Tel: (781) 861-1515 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 20 19:01:32 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:01:32 -0400 Subject: (Almost-)new word sighting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Google has 24 hits on "smoke-easies" (plural), and I found 31 on >Nexis, mostly from the last couple of years but one going back to >12/31/97 P.S. I should have been more careful. A lot of those 31 involve "smoke" and "easy" but not "smoke-easy/easies". (I didn't use quotes possible around the search item the way I did on google.) Also, more substantively, several involve places where you can get away with smoking other substances than tobacco. The first cite mentioned above still applies, though. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 20 18:56:39 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:56:39 -0400 Subject: (Almost-)new word sighting Message-ID: Well, not exactly BRAND-SPANKING new... 'Other smoke-ban municipalities have allowed bars to reorganize as private smoking clubs--"smoke-easies," they have been called.' Bill Keller, "The Smoke Nazis", NTY 10/19/02, A17 Of course the base is not "drink-easies", but "speak-easies", but this is the standard pattern (cf. hamburgers>cheeseburgers, veggie-burgers,...). And yes, other variants are mentioned in the column, but clearly as nonce-terms: 'Commissioner Frieden is scornful of such exemptions. "We don't allow asbestos-easies," he says. "We don't allow formaldehyde-easies, or radiation-easies." ' So either "-easies" or at least "smoke-easies" as a WOTY candidate? Google has 24 hits on "smoke-easies" (plural), and I found 31 on Nexis, mostly from the last couple of years but one going back to 12/31/97, a NYT article about Los Angeles, in which the plural is curiously given as "smoke-easy's". (I didn't check "Among the New Words".) The earliest hits are mostly from California, for obvious reasons. larry From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sun Oct 20 21:03:13 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:03:13 -0400 Subject: Query Message-ID: If memory serves correctly, someone in the ADS-L used to have a quote after his/her name the thrust of which was the difficulty in logically arguing someone out of a mind-set into which that person didn't get logically. The quote put this thought most succinctly and far better than I've restated it. I'd appreciate a copy of that quote. Thanks in advance. Bob Fitzke From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Sun Oct 20 22:33:58 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:33:58 -0400 Subject: Quote of the month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And how about that terrible Tom Jones song of some years ago: "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone." (I suppose it was for prosodic reasons?) At 01:56 AM 10/20/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I thought this would interest some of our folk who are interested in Neg >attraction to indefinites: > > > "Everyone didn't know where he was going." > > > -- Hal Pastner, high school coach of UA basketball recruit Ndudi Ebi > > Arizona Daily Wildcat, Wed., October 2, 2002, p. 9. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Sun Oct 20 23:22:17 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:22:17 -0400 Subject: -nazi (was Re: Smoke Nazi...) In-Reply-To: <6875403B.0F433840.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: #SMOKE NAZI--The title of an editorial in Saturday's NEW YORK TIMES. #"--Nazi" is not new, but "Smoke Nazi" might gain some frequency in NYC #now. On the newsgroup rec.music.filk, which I participate in, people often post new lyrics to existing tunes. The original tune is often referenced with the abbreviation "ttto" = "to the tune of". Often, however, they don't bother to name the original tune, assuming it's obvious, or saying "to the obvious tune". Many times it's nothing like obvious, and sometimes the poster is surprised at the number of people saying so. I am rather fussy about explicit "ttto..."; I have written a song about it (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/TTTOWhat.html) and will often follow-up to a ttto-less lyric with the name of what I think is the tune, generally trying to avoid rudeness. Just the other day a friend posted a ttto-less lyric and I followed up approximately as follows: > Ttto...? > > -- Mark Mandel, ttto-nazi (but I really don't recognize it, and if I > knew the title I could look it up) -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 05:43:40 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:43:40 EDT Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) Message-ID: Greetings from New York City. AMERICAN SPEECH (Fall 2002) was in my mail. There's a nice note on the origin of "Pie in the Sky" on pages 331-336, although it strains to improve on Michael Quinion's fine January 2001 post in WORLD WIDE WORLDS. "Pie in the Sky" is mentioned in the Salvation Army hymn "In the Sweet Bye and Bye" (1911). Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). We can do better than that. Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: During the First World War (1914-18), the Canadian Salvation Army's overseas activities were undertaken as part of the much larger effort organized by British Salvationists. The affectionate nickname 'Sally Ann' and the familiar Red Shield logo also date from this period. Created: December 8, 2000. Last update: September 27, 2001 ? Canadian War Museum Important Notices From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 06:18:12 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 02:18:12 EDT Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) Message-ID: This is the only "Churkendoose" trademark I could find. It's certainly not the first citation. "Turducken" follows: Typed DrawingWord Mark CHURKENDOOSE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: Food products and novelty items Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78033663 Filing Date November 3, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Owner (APPLICANT) Borchardt, Darrell INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 202 W. Main Street, P.O. Box 103 Wayland IOWA 52654 Attorney of Record Bruce W. McKee Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 9, 2001 Typed DrawingWord Mark TURDUCKEN Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: COMBINATION TURKEY, DUCK AND CHICKEN ENTREE FOR CONSUMPTION ON OR OFF THE PREMISES. FIRST USE: 19801127. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19801127 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73576432 Filing Date January 6, 1986 Published for Opposition June 3, 1986 Registration Number 1406947 Registration Date August 26, 1986 Owner (REGISTRANT) PRUDHOMME, PAUL DBA K-PAUL'S LOUISIANA KITCHEN INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 406 CHARTRES STREET NEW ORLEANS LOUISIANA 70130(LAST LISTED OWNER) TASSO TRAVEL, INC. UNKNOWN ASSIGNEE OF Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record ANDREW V. GALWAY Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 07:13:11 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:13:11 EDT Subject: DWI (1963, 1975); DUI (1970) Message-ID: Some DWI/DUI materials in the Library of Congress. I'll go there once this sniper thing is resolved. Report / Commission on "Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug". Relevance: LC Control Number: 66032319 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Ireland. Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug. Report / Commission on "Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug". Dublin : Stationery Office, [1963?] 139 p. : forms ; 25 cm. CALL NUMBER: HE5620.D7 I7 Copy 1 -- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms -- Status: Not Charged Driving while intoxicated : prosecution and defense of the DWI charge /... Relevance: LC Control Number: 76355566 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Driving while intoxicated : prosecution and defense of the DWI charge / Robert E. Oliphant, editor ... [et al.]. Saint Paul : Mason Pub. Co., c1975. v, 235 p. : ill. ; 26 cm. CALL NUMBER: KF8925.T7 D74 Copy 1 -- Request in: Law Library Reading Room (Madison, LM201) -- Status: Not Charged Rehabilitation of the drunken driver; a corrective course in Phoenix, Ariz.... Relevance: LC Control Number: 73137738 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Stewart, Ernest I. (Ernest Israel), 1913- Rehabilitation of the drunken driver; a corrective course in Phoenix, Ariz. for persons convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol [by] Ernest I. Stewart and James L. Malfetti. New York, Teachers College Press, Columbia University [1970] vi, 259 p. illus. 21 cm. CALL NUMBER: HE5620.D7 S87 Copy 1 -- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms -- Status: Not Charged From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 07:45:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 03:45:32 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey (Anaheim Angels) & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and Sack Monkey: Typed DrawingWord Mark TOUCHDOWN MONKEY Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: ENTERTAINMENT SERVICES IN THE NATURE OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GAMES. FIRST USE: 20010800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010800 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029078 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Registration Number 2619004 Registration Date September 10, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Typed DrawingWord Mark FIELD GOAL MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029090 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 26, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark TWO POINT CONVERSION MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029118 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 15, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark SAFETY MONKEY Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029106 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 15, 2002 Typed DrawingWord Mark EXTRA POINT MONKEY Goods and Services IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: STUFFED TOY ANIMALS. FIRST USE: 20001000. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20001000 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029087 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition July 3, 2001 Registration Number 2602886 Registration Date July 30, 2002 Owner (REGISTRANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "MONKEY" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE Typed DrawingWord Mark SACK MONKEY Goods and Services IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: CLOTHING; NAMELY T-SHIRTS, SWEAT SHIRTS, SHORTS AND HATS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78029095 Filing Date October 4, 2000 Filed ITU FILED AS ITU Published for Opposition May 22, 2001 Owner (APPLICANT) Indianapolis Colts, Inc., The CORPORATION DELAWARE One Northfield Plaza Suite 300 Northfield ILLINOIS 60093 Attorney of Record Richard M. Assmus Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Oct 21 08:25:36 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:25:36 +0100 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) In-Reply-To: <157.1631c29b.2ae4ee0c@aol.com> Message-ID: > There's a nice note on the origin of "Pie in the Sky" on pages > 331-336, although it strains to improve on Michael Quinion's fine > January 2001 post in WORLD WIDE WORLDS. Thank you! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 21 09:47:14 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:47:14 +0100 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) Message-ID: > Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation >Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). >We can do better than that. Perhaps, but not me. The best I have remains the AS cite, which reads: 1927 Charlie Samolar 'The Argot of the Vagabond' (AS II:9) 387: Sally Ann is the sobriquet for Salvation Army Two years later comes the AS also offers: 1929 Vernon W. Saul 'The Vocabulary of Bums' (AS IV:5) 344: Sal or Sally-The Salvation Army However there is also this, from the Sydney (Aus.) Bulletin: 1885 Bulletin (Sydney) 16 May 12/3: Two Salvation Sallys were trotted out at Wanganui (N.Z.), recently, at the head of the local contingent, dressed in a style which gave old Nick spasms to such an extent that he incited a member of the 'foorce' to run them in on a charge of lunacy or something which if nothing else suggests that that 'Sally' abbreviation comes very eaerly on in the Army's existence. The more general Aus. name for SA workers was (and remains) 'the Salvos'. Early nicknames seem to have been less affectionate. J. Redding Ware 'Passing English of the Victorian Era' (1909) has Salvation jugginses (i.e. fools); Salvation rotters and Salvation soul-snakers, all dated 1882-3. Salavtion Army itself, in rhyming slang, meant 'barmy', i.e,. mad or drunk. >Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full >text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: I am told by a friend at the (London) Times Online that the full (searchable) text is indeed in preparation, funded by many Murdoch millions, but it is sadly not yet available. Jonathon Green From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 12:14:38 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:14:38 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim > Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football > Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two > Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and > Sack Monkey: I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell got himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to refer to an African-American football player. Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect list? - Jim Landau From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Mon Oct 21 12:51:38 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:51:38 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rice_=E0_la_Malta?= Message-ID: Barry Popik cites: A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: "SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." This dessert is quite common in Sweden, more often in homes than in restaurants, and especially at Christmas. The name is considered to be a corruption of "Riz ? l'amande": the dish used to be served with _one_ almond hidden in it, and the person who got the almond was supposed to get married within the coming year (cf. the French "F?ve des Rois"). Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Oct 21 13:38:41 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:38:41 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: I got the above utterance from a sophisticated young woman, Michelle, age 23, just graduated in political science from the Univ. of Toronto who was being interviewed for an office assistant job. The provocation was my mentioning casually that, in 1971, an assistant editor got fired from her job because, during a dispute with her boss about the definition of "romance", she walked out of his office saying the boss's definition was "absurd." Michelle remarked the firing was anal! I added the editor would have kept her job if she had stayed on to give the boss a chance at rebuttal, tried to learn how words are defined for lexicographical as opposed to literary purposes, or used a less hostile adjective like "ridiculous" -- a suggestion made by another editor when she heard about the incident. Since I wasn't familiar with this use of "anal," I asked Michelle if she meant "anal retentive" or "anal expulsive." She was confused. I pressed on and asked if she meant "anal retentive" as in "Some anal retentive copy- editor wants me to use more commas," but that didn't seem to help either. Of course, "anal" seems an accepted short form, especially in informal situations. The average English user (call her "educated native speaker" if you will) doesn't have to know the origins of words to be able to use them idiomatically. And who wants to keep repeating "anal retentive" during an intellectual discussion that has turned anal? (Incidentally, Michelle has been hired on probation). But the "anal" question remains, especially as in the utterance above. "That is anal" has 279 hits on Google.ca, compared to "This is anal" with 339! I didn't even try "That's anal" because it is very difficult to determine from Google whether the sentences with "anal" in it end at that word or go on to illustrate other meanings as in "anal, vaginal, and oral sex." And when you try to investigate these usages all you get is pure pornography. Frustrating, isn't it. Investigating "anal retentive" is more rewarding. There are 33,000 cases of a-retentive, 360 a-expulsive, and voila! a new variant, a-compulsive. I first saw this used by someone called Betty Bowers correcting no less a person than Laura Bush. Please see below. I predict that "anal compulsive" is going to win out over the other variants in formal use although perhaps "anal" will have the upper hand in informal use. But what does "anal" really mean? The major desk dictionaries say "anal (retentive)" adj. means (not exact quotes): 1. having to do with personality traits such as meticulousness, avarice, and obstinacy (AHD) 2. having to do with personality traits such as parsimony, meticulousness, ill humor: _anal disposition, anal neatness._ (M-W) 3. meticulous and exacting, not lax or uninhibited: _Some anal retentive copy-editor wants me to use more commas._ (User's? Webster, 2002) 4. excessively orderly and fussy: _He's anal about things like that_ (Oxf. Dict. of English, 1998; New Oxf. Amer. Dict., 2001). All those personality traits, of course, are more negative than positive: avarice, being exacting, ill humor, meticulousness, obstinacy, parsimony, not being lax or uninhibited, etc. "Meticulousness" is the common thread in the four definitions, but is meticulousness more negative than positive? Some melioration of meaning, perhaps? Can "anal" in current English be defined as "meticulous," with an illustrative example like "Lexicographers by their very nature are anal"? Is that what young people like Michelle mean when they say "anal"? And how is "anal" USED idiomatically? A dictionary is supposed to provide formal definitions for everyday usages that call for an explanation, at least to some of us. But it seems an impossible task. That's why this lexicographer believes in eschewing formal definitions as much as possible and supplying representative samples of speech and writing from which one may gather the general sense for understanding as well as using the new words that come into our consciousness. Tom Paikeday (www.paikeday.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ SORRY, CHAPTER & VERSE OF THE FOLLOWING HAS BEEN OMITTED AS EASILY VERIFIABLE OR NOT VERY RELEVANT. [HEADING] Laura Bush demonstrates how recent scientific advances have made glass eyes undetectable [TEXT] Laura Bush: I also like Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov." Betty Bowers: I find its treatment of Jesus suspicious at best, dear, and your attachment to it alarming. Speaking of shocking habits when it comes to books, did you really Dewey-decimalize your entire private library, as I read in the paper? Laura: [capitals added] YES. SOME MAY FIND THAT A BIT ANAL - Betty: COMING FROM A WOMAN WHO CLOROXES HER BOOKSHELVES. NO, THAT'S NOT ANAL. THAT'S ANAL-_COMPULSIVE,_ DEAR [end of added capitals]. There is a difference. Let's talk hair, shall we? Hillary Clinton has had more hairstyles than Alec Baldwin's back, but you seem to have stuck with a decidedly 70's 'do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Phrase Finder Home Re: Anal Retentive - Origin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Posted by ESC on March 28, 2001 at 18:58:48: In Reply to: Re: Anal Retentive - Origin posted by R. Berg on March 27, 2001 at 21:48:55: : : : I believe the term refers to an infant who retains his/her excrement for fear of soiling his/her diaper. : : From memories of Psych 101 circa 1967: : : Parents who are very strict with their children when it comes to toilet training and who disapprove of soiling will produce an anal retentive offspring. This offspring person will be very neat and concerned about order and cleanliness. Any psych students out there to give more detail? : I'm not a psych student, but I've copy-edited lots of writings in psychology. In psychoanalytic theory, a cluster of traits grouped under the anal-retentive heading, including compulsiveness and miserliness, is said to result from conflicts experienced by a child at the stage when adults start demanding that the poop be put in the potty. : For a modified, updated, and intuition-friendly version of this theory, a good book is "Childhood and Society" by Erik Erikson. If I'd been harsh with my children regarding potty training, they would be neat and orderly? So that's where I went wrong! Does anyone remember the Saturday Night Live skit -- the Anal Retentive Chef? He never completed a recipe because he was obsessive about cubing the veggies just the right size, etc. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Oct 21 13:59:56 2002 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:59:56 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: I think the current usage is as a synonym for "perfectionist" _________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 14:16:56 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:16:56 -0400 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys In-Reply-To: <103.1d780f04.2ae549ae@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:14 AM -0400 10/21/02, James A. Landau wrote: >In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >writes: > >> Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim >> Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football >> Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal Monkey, Two >> Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and >> Sack Monkey: > >I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell Actually, it was closer to 20 years ago, in reference to Alvin Garrett as a "tough little monkey." >got >himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to >refer to an African-American football player. > >Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect >list? > I'm not sure it was the WORD that was politically incorrect, but its use to denote a human being. In this case, the various monkeys are (representations of) monkeys, not running backs or outfielders. L From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Oct 21 14:31:10 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 10:31:10 -0400 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My pragmatics are alarmed at the phrase "a sportcaster named Howard Cossell." Isn't that a little like "a religious figure named Jesus Christ" or "a fascist leader named Adolf Hitler"? dInIs >At 8:14 AM -0400 10/21/02, James A. Landau wrote: >>In a message dated 10/21/02 3:46:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM >>writes: >> >>> Those following the baseball World Series are familiar with the Anaheim >>> Angels' "Rally Monkey." I didn't find that trademark, but the football >>> Indianapolis Colts have registered Touchdown Monkey, Field Goal >>>Monkey, Two >>> Point Conversion Monkey, Extra Point Monkey, Safety Monkey, and >>> Sack Monkey: >> >>I remember about ten years ago when a sportscaster named Howard Cosell > >Actually, it was closer to 20 years ago, in reference to Alvin >Garrett as a "tough little monkey." > >>got >>himself into an Africa-size pot of hot water by using the term "monkey" to >>refer to an African-American football player. >> >>Does this mean it is possible for a word to get OFF the politically incorrect >>list? >> >I'm not sure it was the WORD that was politically incorrect, but its >use to denote a human being. In this case, the various monkeys are >(representations of) monkeys, not running backs or outfielders. > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM Mon Oct 21 14:53:39 2002 From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:53:39 -0500 Subject: "Rendition" Message-ID: Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism suspect is given over to the custody of another country for detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Do you "rendite" a suspect? ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 15:11:58 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:11:58 -0400 Subject: "Rendition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:53 AM -0500 10/21/02, Joyce, Thomas F. wrote: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to "render", but this one doesn't (yet). L >Do you "rendite" a suspect? > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 21 15:16:56 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:16:56 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" In-Reply-To: <00d301c27907$2c3814c0$0664e440@co611769a> Message-ID: >Michelle remarked the firing was anal! Without having the acquaintance of Michelle, one cannot be certain of the meaning. But I don't think the story supports "anal" = "fussy". If it were "The boss fired her for splitting an infinitive; the boss's behavior was anal[-retentive]", OK; but "The boss fired her for rudeness; the boss's behavior was anal" calls for a different interpretation. I would suggest a superficial interpretation: just as "The boss behaved like an ass" > "The firing was asinine", one can have "The boss behaved like an asshole" > "The firing was anal". This is not an unknown usage; in fact I've encountered "anal" more often than "assholish" as the adjective corresponding to "asshole" although both are infrequent in my experience. This interpretation would be in line with Michelle's confusion at the questions about meticulousness ... and perhaps she does not wish to explain by applying the word "asshole" to the boss during her job interview? -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 21 15:18:23 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:18:23 -0400 Subject: "Rendition" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Do you "rendite" a suspect? "Render", I think. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 15:25:59 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:25:59 EDT Subject: Rally Monkey (Oct. 11th story) Message-ID: Here's the "rally monkey" story that was on AP and Yahoo! and all over the place, from October 11th: Toy monkeys have replaced Mickey Mouse as the most popular plush celebrity in town, where the Anaheim Angels face the Minnesota Twins in the AL championship series this weekend. The Rally Monkey has become the unofficial team mascot. ``You kind of liken him to a baseball role player. He only comes out when he's needed,'' Angels' entertainment manager Peter Bull said. ``Ultimately, the Rally Monkey is the belief that we can come back.'' The Angels are owned by The Walt Disney Co., but none of the studio's creatures ever became allied with the team. That paved the way for this monkey business. Rally Monkey was born on June 6, 2000, on the stadium's giant video monitor, when the Angels were playing San Francisco. Trailing in the sixth inning, the Angels' staff played some video from the 1994 movie ``Ace Ventura, Pet Detective'' that featured a monkey jumping up and down. Then they flashed the words ``Rally Monkey'' on the screen. The crowd roared, the team went on to win -- and the monkey became the mascot. Today, fans haul Rally Monkeys to the stadium and keep them under wraps unless they are needed. Then they pop up everywhere -- out of pockets, purses and from under hats. Rally Monkey has become so popular, he's appeared on ESPN, had a banana drink named after him and even spawned a Web site where devotees can post messages. The monkey's success has even spawned knockoffs, including the Indianapolis Colts' ``Touchdown Monkey.'' Building on the appeal, the Angels filmed ads featuring Katie, a white-faced capuchin monkey featured on NBC's ``Friends'' and in the movie ``Outbreak.'' Katie was replaced this year by Abbie, a 6-year-old capuchin monkey who held the ``Rally Time'' sign during the Angels' pivotal comeback in Game 3 of their first-round series against the Yankees. The monkey went 27-11 this season in games when the Angels trailed. The monkey's lifetime record is 57-41. ``He doesn't go beyond his boundaries. He has a time and a place to come out, and he does when he's needed,'' Bull said. The Angels' staff tried bringing a live monkey to Edison Field. But the Angels lost, prompting pitcher Jarrod Washburn to accuse management of ``making a mockery of the game.'' Minnesota center fielder Torii Hunter even admitted Rally Monkey is a ``star.'' ``Every time we go to their place, in the eighth or ninth inning, they always have a movie with him in it,'' Hunter said. ``I forget I'm playing, I crack up. I turn and watch the whole show.'' On the Net: http://www.rallymonkey.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 15:43:14 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:43:14 EDT Subject: Kringle (before 1839) Message-ID: Another gem from the BRITISH AND IRISH WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database? DARE has "kirngle" ("A usu. sweet, flaky pastry, often with fruit or nut filling, that is usu. formed into a ring or a pretzel-like shape") from only 1950. John Mariani's ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK states: "It is a specialty of the Wisconsin city of Racine, whose nickname is Kringleville because of its large Danish immigrant population, who called cookies and tea cakes made with butter 'kringle." Mariani regurgitates DARE's ridiculously late "1950" date. This citation from the database doesn't have a date, but the writer died in 1839: ...kind as a Sully-Lunn, which was not then known, and another kind of cake which was then greatly in request, and is rarely met with now, a roll of dough of a thickness to be cut in half, buttered hot, or very good eaten plain; bread of all sorts; rolls, English, French and German; Kringles, German cake, &c., and eggs, neither meat nor fish being then introduced as appertaining to breakfast. Papendiek, Charlotte Louise Henrietta Albert, 1765-1839, MEMOIR OF CHARLOTTE LOUISE HENRIETTA ALBERT PAPENDIECK in COURT AND PRIVATE LIFE IN THE TIME OF QUEEN CHARLOTTE: BEING JOURNALS OF MRS. PAPENDIECK, ASSISTANT KEEPER OF THE WARDROBE AND READER, TO HER MAJESTY, V. 2. Broughton, Mrs. Vernon Delves, ed., London, England: Bentley && Son, 1887, pp. 309. From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 21 15:50:04 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:50:04 -0700 Subject: Rally Monkey (Oct. 11th story) In-Reply-To: <94.2e99d50d.2ae57687@aol.com> Message-ID: I assumed that the rally monkey was take-off of David Letterman's various monkeys (I recall a Late Night Mankey Cam or somehting like that.) Any proof of a connection with Letterman? Ed --- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Here's the "rally monkey" story that was on AP and > Yahoo! and all over the > place, from October 11th: > > > > Toy monkeys have replaced Mickey Mouse as the most > popular plush celebrity in > town, where the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/ana/">Anaheim > Angels face the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/min/">Minnesota > Twins in the AL > championship series this weekend. The Rally Monkey > has become the unofficial > team mascot. ``You kind of liken him to a baseball > role player. He only comes > out when he's needed,'' Angels' entertainment > manager Peter Bull said. > ``Ultimately, the Rally Monkey is the belief that we > can come back.'' The > Angels are owned by The Walt Disney Co., but none of > the studio's creatures > ever became allied with the team. That paved the way > for this monkey > business. Rally Monkey was born on June 6, 2000, on > the stadium's giant video > monitor, when the Angels were playing San Francisco. > Trailing in the sixth > inning, the Angels' staff played some video from the > 1994 movie ``Ace > Ventura, Pet Detective'' that featured a monkey > jumping up and down. Then > they flashed the words ``Rally Monkey'' on the > screen. The crowd roared, the > team went on to win -- and the monkey became the > mascot. Today, fans haul > Rally Monkeys to the stadium and keep them under > wraps unless they are > needed. Then they pop up everywhere -- out of > pockets, purses and from under > hats. Rally Monkey has become so popular, he's > appeared on ESPN, had a banana > drink named after him and even spawned a Web site > where devotees can post > messages. The monkey's success has even spawned > knockoffs, including the HREF="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/ind/"> > Indianapolis Colts' ``Touchdown Monkey.'' > Building on the appeal, the Angels > filmed ads featuring Katie, a white-faced capuchin > monkey featured on NBC's > ``Friends'' and in the movie ``Outbreak.'' Katie was > replaced this year by > Abbie, a 6-year-old capuchin monkey who held the > ``Rally Time'' sign during > the Angels' pivotal comeback in Game 3 of their > first-round series against > the Yankees. The monkey went 27-11 this season in > games when the Angels > trailed. The monkey's lifetime record is 57-41. ``He > doesn't go beyond his > boundaries. He has a time and a place to come out, > and he does when he's > needed,'' Bull said. The Angels' staff tried > bringing a live monkey to Edison > Field. But the Angels lost, prompting pitcher HREF="http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/5/5995/">Jarrod > Washburn to accuse > management of ``making a mockery of the game.'' > Minnesota center fielder HREF="http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/5/5884/"> > Torii Hunter even admitted Rally Monkey is a > ``star.'' ``Every time we go to > their place, in the eighth or ninth inning, they > always have a movie with him > in it,'' Hunter said. ``I forget I'm playing, I > crack up. I turn and watch > the whole show.'' On the Net: http://www.rallymonkey.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM Mon Oct 21 16:24:40 2002 From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:24:40 -0500 Subject: "Rendition" Message-ID: I suppose it must be so. But if anybody starts talking about rendering a suspect, I will have visions of boiling vats. -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:12 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Rendition" At 9:53 AM -0500 10/21/02, Joyce, Thomas F. wrote: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to "render", but this one doesn't (yet). L >Do you "rendite" a suspect? > ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 17:31:28 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:31:28 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: <1e.768cb4.2ae4f624@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: # This is the only "Churkendoose" trademark I could find. It's certainly #not the first citation. "Turducken" follows: I remember it from a children's book. A CHicken's egg that was sat on for hatching by a tURKey, a hEN, a Duck, and a gOOSE -- or something like that. Anyone else remember it? Bcc-ing my wife the librarian. -- Mark A. Mandel From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 21 18:10:18 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:10:18 -0400 Subject: Sally Ann (Salvation Army, 1914-1918) In-Reply-To: <157.1631c29b.2ae4ee0c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Note 10 states that "Sally Ann" is an informal British term for "Salvation > Army," and it's first cited in AMERICAN SPEECH (1927). > We can do better than that. Can anyone check this on TIMES (London) full > text? Is that available yet? The following was found on the web: Yes, it is available, but currently only covers 1930-51. And I don't think the Times of London is likely to be a great source for slang vocabulary. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 18:11:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:11:54 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (1947) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 7 December 1947, pg. 92: From Decca comes a twelve-inch unbreakable disk bearing _The Churkendoose_, with Ray Bolger as the narrator. It is the kind of wildly unbelievable story that children, I suppose, believe and like. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 21 18:21:09 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:21:09 -0700 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, October 21, 2002 1:31 PM -0400 Mark A Mandel wrote: > > I remember it [i.e. churkendoose--PMc] from a children's book. A CHicken's egg that was sat on > for hatching by a tURKey, a hEN, a Duck, and a gOOSE -- or something > like that. Anyone else remember it? > Yes--from a children's record back in the late 40s or early 50s, which I probably heard played on the Big John and Sparky radio program. The record may have been based on a book, but I never saw the book. The message of the story was tolerance. Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:00:44 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:00:44 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (1946); In Like Flynn Message-ID: CHURKENDOOSE From OCLC Worldcat: Title: This is the story of the churkendoose; part-chicken, turkey, duck, and goose / Author(s): Berenberg, Ben Ross. ; Cunningham, Dellwyn. Publication: New York : Wonder Books, Year: 1946 Description: [20] p., col. ill., 21 cm. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Descriptor: Animals -- Fiction. Note(s): 1974 printing. Class Descriptors: Dewey: 813.54 Other Titles: Churkendoose Responsibility: By Ben Ross Berenberg. The pictures are by Dellwyn Cunningham. Material Type: Fiction (fic); Juvenile audience (jau) Document Type: Book Entry: 20021003 Update: 20021003 Accession No: OCLC: 50728569 Database: WorldCat --------------------------------------------------------------- IN LIKE FLYNN "In like Flynn" was discussed in the FYI column, City section, of last Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES. Do people still ask such moldy questions anymore? I guess they do. The TIMES attributes it to Boss Flynn, not to Errol Flynn. The TIMES seems pretty sure of itself, but it's very curious that no scholar is cited, nor any scholarly work. The first "in like Flynn" citation is not in the RHHDAS, but right here on ADS-L, posted by me, from the Peter Tamony collection. As usual, I was not contacted. (NOTE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES: I live here!) A check of the NEW YORK TIMES full text shows no "in like Flynn" hit before the extremely late date of 1958. So I'm still dubious of the Bronx boss origin. It is possible that FLYNN'S DETECTIVE WEEKLY used the term. This was a popular magazine in the 1920s and 1930s. Until we turn up a definitive citation, I wouldn't be as sure as FYI is. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Oct 21 19:01:07 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:01:07 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Rice_=E0_la_Malta?= In-Reply-To: <002b01c27900$9bb53460$eb1442d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: And the rice should be cooked with lots of milk, right? and for hours if possible! At least that's the way we cooked it in Minnesota. I still cook it at Christmas, and yes, I put in the one almond too, even though my one and only child never quite gets married even though he always (by my design) finds the almond. . . . At 02:51 PM 10/21/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Barry Popik cites: >A GUIDE TO MALTESE COOKING (no date; 200?) by Francis Darmanin--Pg. 95: >"SWEET RICE A LA MALTA Despite the name, this is not a Maltese dish. I >came across it in Sweden where it occurs quite regularly on restaurant menus." > >This dessert is quite common in Sweden, more often in homes than in >restaurants, and especially at Christmas. The name is considered to be a >corruption of "Riz ? l'amande": the dish used to be served with _one_ >almond hidden in it, and the person who got the almond was supposed to get >married within the coming year (cf. the French "F?ve des Rois"). > >Jan Ivarsson >jan.ivarsson at transedit.st >http://www.transedit.st From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:14:36 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:14:36 -0400 Subject: Sally Ann=Salvation Army (1921) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 18 December 1921, pg. 85: The Salvation Army will have its three homelike stations, with "Sally Ann's" morning cup of coffee, decorated and made gay with Christmas greens, and will hold services with Chirstmas music. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 21 19:41:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:41:45 -0400 Subject: DWI (1950); DUI (1969) Message-ID: This is a little better. Again, it's Monday, and the NYPL is closed. 21 June 1950, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 16: Because a charge of driving while intoxicated--or a DWI charge, as the police call it--is often impossible to prove in court unless it's backed up by evidence from a chemical test. 26 October 1969, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM54: A black man from Sweetport, La., named Edward Green, was even more surprised to find himself arrested on a D.U.I. charge (driving under the influence) by a black officer in Mississippi and fined a crushing $113. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 20:32:42 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:32:42 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) In-Reply-To: <662270.1035199269@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: #Yes--from a children's record back in the late 40s or early 50s, which I #probably heard played on the Big John and Sparky radio program. The record #may have been based on a book, but I never saw the book. The message of #the story was tolerance. Maybe it was a record, not a book. I was a kid then and I had my very own little record player. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 21 20:34:58 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: Churkendoose (2000) & Turducken (1980) (fwd) Message-ID: >From my wife the librarian, and here bcc-ed back to her. Thanks, dear! -- Mark A. Mandel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:37:12 -0400 Turducken is a Cajun recipe in which one is stuffed inside another, etc. The citation for Churkendoose is Berenberg, Ben Ross. This is the Story of the Churkendoose, Part Chicken, Turkey, Duck and Goose .Illus. Dellwyn Cunningham, Wonder Books.New York, 1946. This tells the story of an egg. The fowl can't remember who laid it, and take turns sitting on it until it hatches. The resulting creature is quite strange looking, and is teased by the other farm creatures. He replies in verse: Does the green grass ask the sky so blue, I'm green why aren't you green too. A rose smells sweet cause it's a flower, An onion smells strong, a pickle is sour. They're different yet they get along, And no one seems to think it wrong. Chicken, turkey, duck or goose, Can't there be a churkendoose? It depends on how you look at things, It depends on how you look at things, Is the baby chimpanzee any prettier than me It all depends upon, begins and ends upon, It all depends on how you look at things. Eventually, he saves the day when a fox heads to the coop and is so startled by the Churkendoose's appearance that the fox runs away. Personally, I do not believe foxes are quite so analytical. Ray Bolger made a recording of the story. The book is out of print, but used copies are available at Amazon at prices ranging from $20-$60. May be less at other outlets. -- Mark A. Mandel From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 01:13:50 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:13:50 -0400 Subject: Cevapcici (1939) Message-ID: We discussed "cevapcici" just two months ago, in August. I just found it by accident, and I'll post it before I drop sound asleep. From NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, June 1939, pg. 319, col. 2 (in an article about Yugoslovia): At native restaurants down on the bank of the Vardar one can order sheep's liver grilled on a skewer, or that delectable titbit of meat called _cevapcici_ (small round hamburgers), which the French officers during the war liked but couldn't pronounce. (OED has only one hit, for "cevabcici" in 1959. On Merriam-Webster online, there is no "cevapcici" hit; it asks you if you meant to type "speakeasy"--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 22 01:03:55 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:03:55 -0500 Subject: Stent Message-ID: The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled . However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central Indiana? Herb Stahlke From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 03:43:49 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 23:43:49 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: Herbert Stahlke wrote: >The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat >angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this >I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the >word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled >. However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger >areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central >Indiana? I'm pretty sure that here in Connecticut I've only heard [stEnt]. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 05:44:01 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:44:01 EDT Subject: Maltese food; Tipping (1990) Message-ID: O.T. JAMES OSSUARY Just as I return from Malta (after following in the footsteps of St. Paul), it's announced (Biblical Archaeology Review, NY Times, CNN, Drudge Report, Reuters) that a first century ossuary has been discovered. The inscription is of "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." If true, this would be our earliest Jesus document (63 A. D.). I don't know. The thing doesn't come from a recent dig. It's been around for 2,000 years and no one read the inscription before? I have to solve everything in every language? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TIPPING IS NOT A CITY IN CHINA 31 August 1990, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C1: Other signs spread witty, sometimes peace-love slogans like "Have a nice day" and "Tipping is not a city in China." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MALTESE FOOD 11 March 1962, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX16: Freshly caught fish is delicious, and the special "Lampuki" fish pie must be tasted. TImpana is an elaborate macaroni and liver combination baked inside a luscious crust. Country-style rabbit and spaghetti is served at its best in country restaurants. (...) "Rikotta," a creamy cheese made of sheep's milk, is used in the hot, flaky cheese cakes served in all cafes, a very special Maltese treat that should not be missed. 28 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX39: In many towns, small anonymous restaurants, bearing only the sign "Maltese Dishes," feature such local delicacies as _timpana_, a tasty macaroni pie; another pie made from _lampuki_, a local fish, and the national specialty, stewed rabbit and spaghetti. THE DEFINITIVE(LY) GOOD GUIDE TO RESTAURANTS IN MALTA AND GOZO 2001 Rabat, Malta: The Definitive(ly) Good Guide Co. Ltd. (info at restaurantsmalta.com) (No copyright date. 2000?--ed.) Pg. 41: _Maltese Food_ (...) _ Soups (Sopop)_ Broad bean soup (Kuksu)... Fish soup (Aljotta)... Widow's soup (Soppa ta' l-Armla)... Pg. 42: Vegetable soup (Minestra)... _Pasta (Ghagin)_ Macaroni in pastry (Timpana)... Spaghetti with rabbit sauce (Fenkata)... _Pies (Torta)_ Cheese cakes and Pea cakes (Pastizzi)... Spinach and Ricotta pie (Torta ta' l-Irkotta u Spinaci)... Lampuki pie (Torta tal-Lampuki)... Pg. 44: _Meat (Laham)_ Beef olives (Bragjoli)... Fried rabbit (Fenek moqli)... A Rabbit feast (Fenkata)... Beef Stew (Stuffat tal-Laham)... Roast Stuffed Chicken (Tigiega Mimlija)... Pg. 45: Snail Salad (Bebbux)... _Vegetable dishes (Haxix)_ Broad beans with garlic (Ful bit-tewm... Stuffed Globe Artichokes (Qacog Mimli)... Stuffed Green Peppers (Bzar Ahdar Mimli)... Stuffed Marrows and Aubergines (Qargha Baghli Mimli, Bringiel Mimli)... Cabbage (Kabocci)... Pg. 46: Stuffed olives (Zebbug mimli)... Broad Bean Paste (Bigilla)... Cauliflowers with Goat's Cheese (Pastard bil Gbejniet)... _Fish (Hut)_ Bogue (Vopa)... Sea Bream (Pagru)...Pandora and Red Bream (Pagella Hamra and tal-Gargi)... Pg. 48: Dentex (Dantici)... Sea Bass (Spnotta)... Grouper (Cerna)... Stone bass, wreckfish (Dott)... Transparent Goby (Makku)... John Dory (Pesce San Pietro)... Scorpion fish (Skorfna)... Pg. 49: Hake (Marluzz)... Garfish (Imsell)... Amberjack (Accola. Cervjola when young)... Dolphin fish (Lampuka)... (I have many other Maltese cookbooks here, but that'll do for now. I have to judge other New Yorkers and find them guilty without due process tomorrow, but on Wednesday I'll look up some Maltese dictionaries, HOLIDAY magazine, and TRAVEL magazine, and try to get better dates for "pastizzi" and "qassatat" and "bragioli." Surprisingly, I couldn't find a single "pastizzi" in the pre-1986 NEW YORK TIMES--ed.) From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Oct 22 07:01:21 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:01:21 -0700 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: >... However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger >areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central >Indiana? Yes, stEnt most everywhere there is no merger of /In/ /En/ Rima From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 22 13:08:24 2002 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:08:24 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: I have only heard [stEnt], myself (always outside of Central Indiana). Ben From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Oct 22 13:08:53 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:08:53 -0400 Subject: the name of Jesus in Aramaic Message-ID: We discussed this last month; "Yeshua" is the transliteration--from today's NY Times: >The words, in Aramaic, "Ya'akov bar Yosef akhui diYeshua," were carved on a >burial box, known as an ossuary, which presumably once held the bones of a >man named James who died in the first century A.D. For a "biography" of James, the brother of Jesus, see the book by that name by Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Robert Eisenmanm. Eisenmann identifies James as Jesus' successor in the nascent 'Christian' branch of Judaism and as the James the Just found in the scrolls. A.D. 63 would be right for his murder, on the temple steps, by stoning. James' branch kept Mosaic law and were in direct competition with Paul's branch which welcomed 'gentile' converts. With James's death the way was clear for Paul's branch of Christianity to prosper, especially after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Eisenmann notes the contemporary belief that the temple's destruction was God's punishment for the death of James the Just. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 22 14:07:38 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:07:38 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Herbert Stahlke wrote: #The practice of expanding a metal mesh tube in a coronary artery to treat #angina began sometime in the late 80s or 90s, well after I had moved to this #I/E merger region. I've heard it called only a [stInt]. I hadn't seen the #word in print till this past week when I was surprised to see it spelled #. However, I've heard cardiologists who are not from I/E merger #areas say [stInt]. Is it pronounced [stEnt] outside of this part of Central #Indiana? Yup. That's the only pronunciation I've ever heard. (Massachusetts and national radio.) -- Mark A. Mandel From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 22 14:15:01 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:15:01 -0400 Subject: Stent In-Reply-To: <004d01c27969$4a71e3a0$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: There were other kinds of stents before coronary artery stents: it seems to me that (e.g.) ureteral stents have been used and so named since pre-1980 but I may be misremembering. The word in this sense ("tube") seems to be relatively new, and I don't know whether the etymology is firm. M-W Collegiate (Web) doesn't show the word at all; OED on-line apparently doesn't either (although it may be that the word is an extension of the word for a mold for tissue grafting, OED's n.(5)). RHUD and AHD4 show it. There is a spelling and pronunciation alternative "stint" which in my experience is a minority variant ... but maybe it's the majority variant in some specialties or geographic regions. This explains the pronunciation /stInt/ by non-mergers. Possibly the variant "stint" exists by virtue of early use by merging folks, though, especially if the etymology is truly from an English dentist's surname Stent. M-W Third shows both "stent" and "stint" (1961) in reference to a mold. There is a verb form [e.g. "stent the artery", "stent the ureter"] which is reminiscent of the Scots verb "stent" meaning "stretch"/"fix"/"stiffen"/"distend", so I wonder whether the etymology is really clear. Maybe the medical use started as "I'll stent the duct with this catheter to avoid anastomotic stricture" or so, and then the catheter was called a stent, independent of the earlier use with reference to a mold or a tissue impression? (Just wild conjecture.) -- Doug Wilson From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 22 15:59:08 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:59:08 -0400 Subject: "That's anal!" Message-ID: Thanks Doug, David Bergdahl. Now that Michelle has got the job, I'll certainly explore her meaning further. The problem I have with a synonym like "perfectionist" (n. & adj.) is, is it substitutable for "anal" in idiomatic utterances? Regards. TOM. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:16 AM Subject: Re: "That's anal!" > >Michelle remarked the firing was anal! > > Without having the acquaintance of Michelle, one cannot be certain of the > meaning. But I don't think the story supports "anal" = "fussy". If it were > "The boss fired her for splitting an infinitive; the boss's behavior was > anal[-retentive]", OK; but "The boss fired her for rudeness; the boss's > behavior was anal" calls for a different interpretation. > > I would suggest a superficial interpretation: just as "The boss behaved > like an ass" > "The firing was asinine", one can have "The boss behaved > like an asshole" > "The firing was anal". This is not an unknown usage; in > fact I've encountered "anal" more often than "assholish" as the adjective > corresponding to "asshole" although both are infrequent in my experience. > > This interpretation would be in line with Michelle's confusion at the > questions about meticulousness ... and perhaps she does not wish to explain > by applying the word "asshole" to the boss during her job interview? > > -- Doug Wilson From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST Tue Oct 22 19:05:32 2002 From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:05:32 +0200 Subject: Stent Message-ID: The Swedish National Encyclopedia says: "stent (after British dentist Charles R. Stent, d. 1885), originally mold or imprint made in a soft material which then hardens, e.g. dental imprint. The term now applies to tube structures in plastic or metal, which during an operation of a stricture is placed in a blood vessel or other cavity to prevent the stricture from recurring." (My translation) Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st http://www.transedit.st From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 19:25:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:25:37 -0400 Subject: Antedatings of "Deconstruction" and Related Terms In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021020183203.02dc94d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: deconstruct (OED 1973) 1969 Jacques Derrida in _Philosophy and Phenomenological Research_ XXX. 53 But the thought of this presence only metaphorizes, by a profound necessity which cannot be escaped by a simple decision, the language it deconstructs. deconstruction (OED, b., 1973) 1969 Jacques Derrida in _Philosophy and Phenomenological Research_ XXX. 56 It also goes without saying that the choice between these two forms of deconstruction cannot be a simple and unique one. deconstructionism (OED 1980) 1975 _Diacritics_ Summer 23 But structuralism (in literature) has led to de-constructionism and to a vigorous critique of positivism and Western metaphysics. deconstructive (OED 1977) 1972 _Boundary 2_ I. 84 Heidegger is Derrida's primary example of the deconstructive philosopher (along with Nietzsche and Freud). deconstructionist (OED 1982) 1976 _PMLA_ XCI. (adv't) One of the most exciting of these [issues] centered on the kind of deconstructionist criticism practiced brilliantly in America by J. Hillis Miller. 1977 _Boundary 2_ V. 364 In literary interpretation, one finds efforts to move beyond formalism and merely rhetorical criticism -- speech act theory as the basis for a new criticism, new literary history, and more recently "deconstructionist" theories of language and text. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 22 20:08:58 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:08:58 -0400 Subject: More on "Deconstructionism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: deconstructionism (OED 1980) 1978 _College Composition and Communication_ XXIX. 333 These abstruse days of hermeneutics, semiotics, structuralism, deconstructionism, and transformational grammar. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 22 22:31:16 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:31:16 EDT Subject: DailyCandy Lexicon IV Message-ID: Gosh, is this lame. From today's www.dailycandy.com: DailyCandy Lexicon IV If you've been a DailyCandy subscriber for a while, you know the drill. Lexicons. We love words almost as much as we love food, fashion, and fun. If you're new to the game, allow us to debrief you. So enthusiastic were the responses to Lexicon installments I, II, and III that we keep a file of words we pick up along the way as well as words we create when we see the lack of a better word out there. (Like "stray." Stray? C'mon, like you don't know one. A stray is the term for a straight man who everyone secretly believes is gay.) So without further ado, we present the DailyCandy Lexicon IV: drailing: E-mailing when drunk -- i.e., drunk e-mailing mego: The drugged-out sensation one gets when poring over spreadsheets or instruction manuals; acronym for "my eyes glaze over" ranky: Gross, nasty; hybrid term -- raunchy meets skanky gu: Pronounced "goo;" acronym for "geographically undesirable." (Great guy and all, but totally gu -- he lives all the way in Boerum Hill!) mousewife: Male Housewife From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 00:37:13 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a question for Jesse and Barry and anyone else on the list: Does anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the antiquity of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:09:29 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:09:29 EDT Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) Message-ID: This is David Bowie's "Suffragette City." Sorry if the lyrics appear smushed: Hey man, oh leave me alone you knowHey man, oh Henry, get off the phone, I gottaHey man, I gotta straighten my faceThis mellow thighed chick just put my spine out of placeHey man, my schooldays insaneHey man, my work's down the drainHey man, well she's a total blam-blamShe said she had to squeeze it but she... then she...(CHORUS)Oh don't lean on me man, cause you can't afford the ticketI'm back on Suffragette CityOh don't lean on me manCause you ain't got time to check itYou know my Suffragette CityIs outta sight...she's all rightHey man, Henry, don't be unkind, go awayHey man, I can't take you this time, no wayHey man, droogie don't crash hereThere's only room for one and here she comes, here she comesCHORUSOh hit me! CHORUSA Suffragette City, a Suffragette CityI'm back on Suffragette City, I'm back on Suffragette CityOoo, Sufraggete city, ooo, Suffragette CityOooh-how, Sufragette City, oooh-how, Sufragette City, oooh-howSufragetteOhhh, Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 02:12:10 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:12:10 -0400 Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) In-Reply-To: <1aa.ab809ac.2ae75ed9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > This is David Bowie's "Suffragette City." Sorry if the lyrics appear > smushed: Thanks, but I already knew about the Bowie lyrics. I guess I should have framed my question more precisely: is there any evidence of pre-Bowie usage? I'm guessing the phrase was around before this. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:16:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:16:09 EDT Subject: David Bowie's "Suffragettte City" (Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am) Message-ID: Maybe we can ask David Bowie himself. He used to be a contributor to this list! :-) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 02:43:22 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:43:22 EDT Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives Message-ID: Bowie's song is from 1976. See the old ADS-L archives, where you can read this: ADS-L: Archive Search Results Date Sent: Thursday, August 27, 1998 (...) WHAM, BAM, THANK YOU, MA'AM I posted here that the "Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am" in DINAH WAS (the Off-Broadway Dinah Washington musical, allegedly spoken around 1945) was an anachronism.This is from WorldCat: 1940--A fox trot by Paul Whiteman ("king of jazz") was "Wham: wham, re, bop,boom, bam." 1948-1953--The album I'LL SAIL MY SHIP ALONE: RAMBLIN' JIMMIE DOLAN (1994) recorded in these years contains "Wham! Bam! Thank you Ma'am!" 1956-1961--The album THE ART OF CHARLES MINGUS (1973) recorded in these years contains "Wham bam thank you ma'am." 1965--The album FINDING A NEW FRIEND by Oscar Brown, Jr. and Luiz Henrique contains "Wham! Bam! Thank you ma'am!" 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was published. 1969--The album THE AUTUMN STONE by Small Faces has the song "Wham bam thank you mam." 1994--WHAM BAM, THANK YOU GLAM! is the title of a music compilation. From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 23 03:09:01 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:09:01 -0400 Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives In-Reply-To: <142.101f902.2ae766ca@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: [...] > 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was > published. That should be "Troy Conway", a pseudonym of Michael Avallone, an enormously productive writer in various genres. I recently bought a copy of _The Cunning Linguist,_ which I had to buy based on the title alone. It's a wonderfully enjoyable "adult" novel--No. 20 in the "Coxeman" series--featuring a James Bondesque hero, and a terrific period cover with a Roger Moore type kissing two microskirted, go-go-booted hotties who hold large phallic handguns. 1970 for this one; _Wham! Bam!_ was an earlier effort in this series. Jesse Sheidlower OED From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU Wed Oct 23 03:41:35 2002 From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:41:35 -0400 Subject: Cunning Linguist In-Reply-To: <20021023030901.GA20833@panix.com> Message-ID: Of course, the term 'cunning linguist' was actually used in a recent James Bond movie. It was the second scene of Tomorrow Never Dies (1997): Moneypenny: "James? Where are you?" Bond: "Oh, Moneypenny. I'm just up here at Oxford brushing up on a little Danish." Danish: "Little?" Moneypenny: "I'm afraid you're going to have to kiss off your lesson James." ... Bond: (Something in Danish) Moneypenny: "You always were a cunning linguist James." Philip At 11:09 PM -0400 10/22/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Oct 22, 2002 at 10:43:22PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >[...] >> 1968--The book THE WHAM! BAM! THANK YOU, MA'AM AFFAIR by Troy Conway was >> published. > >That should be "Troy Conway", a pseudonym of Michael Avallone, an >enormously productive writer in various genres. > >I recently bought a copy of _The Cunning Linguist,_ which I had to >buy based on the title alone. It's a wonderfully enjoyable "adult" >novel--No. 20 in the "Coxeman" series--featuring a James Bondesque >hero, and a terrific period cover with a Roger Moore type kissing >two microskirted, go-go-booted hotties who hold large phallic >handguns. 1970 for this one; _Wham! Bam!_ was an earlier effort in >this series. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 04:16:35 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:16:35 EDT Subject: Food Festivals, U.S.A. (2002) Message-ID: FOOD FESTIVALS, U.S.A. 250 RED, WHITE & BLUE RIBBON RECIPES FROM ALL 50 STATES by Becky Mercuri San Diego: Laurel Glen 430 pages, paperback, $24.95 April 2002 Amazon.com has this as a book to buy with ROADFOOD (2002). It should have been an interesting book to explore American regional cuisine, but I think it fumbles a great topic. Two people on Amazon, both named "a reader," grade the book "four stars." It looks suspicious. "A reader from New Jersey" calls this book "An Encyclopedia of American food"..There is a short forward by food writer John T. Edge...First-time author Mercuri claims that she owns 7,000 cookbooks. The food festivals are listed, there is a blurb for each ("XXX is the Apple/Orange/Raisin/Shrimp/Blueberry Capital of the U.S."), and there is a recipe for each. Very little food history is given. The apple/orange/raisin/shrimp/blueberry recipes can better be found on the web. The festivals themselves can better be found on the web--with up-to-date info. This book strangely acts as if the web doesn't exist! In the "DIRECTORY OF FESTIVALS BY STATE" at the end of the book, the mailing addresses and telephone numbers are given. Not a single food festival has a web site?? A huge number of "food festivals" aren't here. New York City, for example, has no food festivals at all? What about that international food "street fair" that they hold every year? And what about the annual July 4th Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contests? What about the food contests/events held every year at state fairs? What exactly is a "food festival"? Pg. 402, for example, includes the "Race to Bake the Biggest Apple Pie"--not a "food festival," even admittedly not so by the author. There's a poor, greatly reduced "food festival" selection contained here. There's also no bibliography. This entire book was written at least twice before. You can check Amazon for GOURMET FOOD AND WINE FESTIVALS OF NORTH AMERICA (1986) by Carol Spivak and Richard Weinstock, and FOOD FESTIVAL: THE ULTIMATE GUIDEBOOK TO AMERICA'S BEST REGIONAL FOOD CELEBRATIONS (1994) by Alice M. Cohen and Carole Berglie, and FOOD FESTIVAL: EATING YOUR WAY FROM COAST TO COAST (1997) by Barbara Carlson. A large number of interesting food festival titles have been published recently, such as FOOD FESTIVALS OF NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, FOOD FESTIVALS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, FOOD FESTIVALS OF TEXAS, CALIFORNIA FOOD FESTIVALS COOKBOOK, and WISCONSIN FOOD FESTIVALS. Again, there is no bibliography to tell you this. Food TV (www.foodtv.com) has a program called "All American Festivals." The web site has a discussion board. The tv program is never mentioned. To summarize: the book misses the potential of the topic. I can't tell you whether it's worth the $24.95 to you, but you can get all this for free, and get it better, on the web. Unlike ROADFOOD, I can't think of a single regional food blurb worthy of sharing here on ADS-L. And that was the purpose of the book, as the author bio declares on page 429: "With the homogenization of the American palate, the food historian in Becky wanted to capture America's rich cultural and ethnic diversity as embodied in the foods of our forebears. The results are well worth it and we believe that Becky's warmth and wit shine through the pages of her book, which are a culinary travelogue of our great country's distinctive foodways. The recipes are unique, innovative, traditional, ethnic, and delicious!" INTERESTING O.T.: Pg. IX ACKNOWLEDGMENTS (...) My agent, Meredith Bernstein, who immediately believed in this book and who bravely and competently promoted a new author. Meredith Bernstein! MEREDITH BERNSTEIN!!!!!! In October 2001, I had a pre-Yom Kippur dinner with my sister and Meredith Bernstein's mom. I was told to submit my stuff to Meredith Bernstein, who would listen to my book ideas. So I said, post 9-11, that I'd like to write a New York CIty book on "the Big Apple," as only I can. It would go well beyond and utterly destroy Robert Hendrickson's NEW YORK TALK and Irving Lewis Allen's CITY IN SLANG. I also mentioned that I've done enormous and original work on food history, and I'd like to do a book on food etymologies. (I signed on to THE OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD two months later.) Meredith Bernstein wouldn't talk to me at all. She quickly returned all of my stuff, saying tersely that she had no idea what I had in mind. Whatever it was, it wasn't for her! And now we have a pedestrian, been-there-before, instantly forgettable book called FOOD FESTIVALS, USA (2002). Meredith Bernstein!!!! From slangman at PACBELL.NET Wed Oct 23 05:26:31 2002 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:26:31 -0700 Subject: Old "Wham Bam" ADS-L archives Message-ID: My earliest citation for the New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English is: "[W]hat was your plot - to hop in bed with me, hop right out again, and get home before Grace does? Wham, bam, thank you ma'am?" Shulman, Max. Rally Round the Flag, Boys! Garden City New York: Doubleday & Company, 1957, p. 104. Tom Dalzell > > From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Oct 23 05:43:56 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:43:56 -0400 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asks, >> Does anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the >> antiquity of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? Chapman's New Dictionary of American Slang says WWII, armed forces. I'd call that semisolid. (Oxford slang dictionary says early '70s. WAY off. Maybe it took 25 years to get to the UK.) --Dodi Schultz From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:25:38 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:25:38 -0500 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro wrote: > > Here is a question for Jesse and Barry and anyone else on the list: Does > anyone have any solid or at least semi-solid information on the antiquity > of the phrase "wham bam thank you ma'am"? > > Fred Shapiro I'm pretty sure I heard it as part of a joke ca. 1950. I'm dead certain I heard it repeatedly while I was in the army, 1951-1953. The joke starts by describing a happy jackrabbit bouncing through the forest, screwing every bunny he found in record time and saying "wham bam thank you ma'am" as he bounced off to find a new conquest. The denoument went something like this: Then the jackrabbit came to a garden with an iron statue of a bunny. He tried to do his thing, but staggered away saying "wham bam GODDAMN, ma'am!" All right, it wasn't very funny -- but it usually got a laugh anyhow. I don't recall hearing the phrase applied to the effect of driving over potholes, or its derivative application to potholes themselves, until the 1980s. There was a parallel story about a bear running through the forest saying "I'm a ready teddy" until he hit on a bear statue -- after which he said "I'm a ruined bruin". -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:26:53 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:26:53 -0500 Subject: Cunning Linguist Message-ID: In 1966-67, IIRC, I was offered an appointment in the anthropology department at Brooklyn College. They wanted a social anthropologist who could teach some courses in linguistic anthro, and I qualified. (Besides that, an old friend was on the search committee . . . ) After some thought, I accepted another offer. I told my friend that part of my reason was that I didn't want to have to tell the world I had become a CUNY linguist. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Oct 23 06:28:36 2002 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:28:36 -0500 Subject: Rally Monkey & Indy Colts' Monkeys Message-ID: "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > > My pragmatics are alarmed at the phrase "a sportcaster named Howard > Cossell." Isn't that a little like "a religious figure named Jesus > Christ" or "a fascist leader named Adolf Hitler"? > > dInIs Dennis: You're showing your age. Believe it or not, there are lots of people (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases as "light at the end of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty old codgers, and I haven't run across anyone who responds "we do our part" to NRA for ages. (No, I don't remember the early days of the New Deal -- but I was thirteen when I learned that "President" wasn't a bound morpheme, inseparable from "Roosevelt".) Hell, I can remember going to Wrigley Field to watch the Cubs the last time they made it to the Series just like it was yesterday. Trouble is I'm starting to have trouble remembering yesterday like it was yesterday. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Wed Oct 23 07:50:12 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:50:12 +0100 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: If G. Legman's rcords are presumed correct then he has a 1942 cite, thus: 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, Mam' [Calif. 1942] (NB: The 1972 edn. is a UK paperback which splits the book in two; I can't offer orig. pagination) On the same page he also mentions that the phrase or variants of it is in, but doesn't quote, William M. Camp 'Retreat, Hell' (1943) 524 Heggen & Logan 'Mr. Roberts' [play] plus a ref. to the 'wham-bam tagline' dated 'Fla. 1949'. Jonathon Green From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 10:22:52 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:22:52 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: <001f01c27a68$d2a373b0$ad00a8c0@green> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: > A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, > Mam' [Calif. 1942] So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the punchline of an economists' joke. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 23 10:41:01 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:41:01 -0400 Subject: FW: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: Responding to what Jonathon G and Fred S said (cc'd below): It seems unlikely to me that the punchline of a joke would be the source/first citation for a phrase/idiom. Punchlines very often pick up an existing phrase or cliche and use it in a novel or surprising way (hence part of the humor), but some of the humor is lost if the punchline does not play off of an established expression. Of course, a joke may well serve to popularize an expression -- but to originate it? The evidence of a joke would make me want to look further back. Speculatively, Frank Abate ************************** On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: > A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, > Mam' [Calif. 1942] So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the punchline of an economists' joke. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 11:23:51 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:23:51 -0400 Subject: FW: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > It seems unlikely to me that the punchline of a joke would be the > source/first citation for a phrase/idiom. Punchlines very often pick up an > existing phrase or cliche and use it in a novel or surprising way (hence > part of the humor), but some of the humor is lost if the punchline does not > play off of an established expression. > > Of course, a joke may well serve to popularize an expression -- but to > originate it? The evidence of a joke would make me want to look further > back. Frank's point makes sense. In the case of the "don't make waves" joke, the punchline would still work if it were not playing off an existing expression, but it works better if it was. In the case of the "no such thing as a free lunch" joke, the punchline is kind of weak if it is not playing off an existing expression (but I have not found any pre-joke usage despite very extensive researches!). Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 11:33:44 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:33:44 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Don't make waves" has many variants. They almost all involve a guy being given choices of which room in hell he would like to spend eternity in. In one room, a bunch of people are standing around in shit up to their necks sipping coffee and tea. Compared to the other rooms (which can make the joke lengthy), this one looks good; he goes for it and is equipped with cup and saucer. When he remarks to the guy next to him how easy this is, the guy says: "Wait til the devil in the speedboat (on water skis, etc...) goes by." My own favorite is, however, the one in which a devil appears and says "OK, coffee break's over. Back on your heads." I'm all for this derivation of catch phrases from jokes; it seems much more plausible to me. On the other hand, the human drive for narration makes the other direction not unlikely. I guess we'll have to stick to our searching. dInIs >On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Jonathon Green wrote: > >> 1968 Legman Rationale of the Dirty Joke (1972) vol. 1 199: >> A little rabbit whose method with his girlfriends is 'Wham bam, thank you, >> Mam' [Calif. 1942] > >So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how >many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make >waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches >suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the >punchline of an economists' joke. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 12:46:28 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:46:28 EDT Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/23/02 3:50:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK writes: > On the same page he also mentions that the phrase or variants of it is in, > but doesn't quote, > > William M. Camp 'Retreat, Hell' (1943) 524 > Heggen & Logan 'Mr. Roberts' [play] "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book to the play and from the play to the movie. I never heard of a book called "Retreat, Hell". That catch-phrase however is from the Civil War, having been used during a council of war during the Battle of Stone's River (December 1862) by General George Henry Thomas. I have seen several variations of what General Thomas said, but all agree on the first two sentences. My favorite variation, based on the fact that Thomas fell asleep in the meeting, is "Retreat, Hell. The Army of the Cumberland doesn't retreat. It just goes back to sleep." - Jim Landau From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Oct 23 15:01:12 2002 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:01:12 -0700 Subject: New form of a word? Message-ID: Hi all, I just received this message from one of our administrators: Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not have to report and be ready for work until 12:00. We are flexing your day. I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is obviously based on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the admin used ad nauseum during recent contract negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be 'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd to anyone else? thanks, Fritz From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 15:25:41 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:25:41 -0700 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: <54.a18429.2ae7f424@aol.com> Message-ID: > "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, > published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the > USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). > In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script > by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of > the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I > have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say > how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book > to the play and from the play to the movie. A copy of the 1948 play is sitting on a shelf within arm's reach. At the end of Act II, Scene I, the character Gerhart says, "Well, there goes the liberty. That was sure a wham-bam-thank you ma'am!" From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 23 16:32:38 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:32:38 -0700 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would think that it comes from flex-time. But I haven't heard it before. Ed --- FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > Hi all, > I just received this message from one of our > administrators: > > Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not > have to report and be ready for work until 12:00. > We are flexing your day. > > > I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is > obviously based on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the > admin used ad nauseum during recent contract > negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be > 'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd > to anyone else? > thanks, > Fritz __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Wed Oct 23 16:33:29 2002 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:33:29 -0400 Subject: Orlando Sentinel: Instant messaging impacts kids' grammar Message-ID: http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/living/education/k_12/4340926.htm From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 23 16:53:19 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:53:19 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: #So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how #many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make #waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches #suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the #punchline of an economists' joke. Cf. "Where were you when the shit hit the fan?" Somewhat similarly, growing up in the fifties and sixties and reading, inter alia, my parents' and grandparents' old books and magazines, I gradually reconstructed the original of "That was no X, that was my Y!" from all the parodies and half-quotes that assumed that it was (overly?) well known to the reader. -- Mark A. Mandel From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 17:15:12 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:15:12 -0400 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi all, >I just received this message from one of our administrators: > >Staff please be aware that on Thursday you do not have to report and >be ready for work until 12:00. We are flexing your day. > > >I have never heard 'flexing' used this way. It is obviously based >on 'flexible,' the buzzword that the admin used ad nauseum during >recent contract negotiations. Everything and everyone needs to be >'flexible.' Anyway, is 'flexing' used this way odd to anyone else? >thanks, >Fritz "Flex" is used around here as a verb, but not in the above sense. Instead, one "flexes" one's benefits (putting a certain amount of money aside each year as non-taxable salary reduction against future unreimbursed tax-deductible medical or child-care benefits that can then be "flexed" each month, whereupon the amount shows up as restored to one's next paycheck. At the end of the year, all set-aside funds must have been submitted; it's use-it-or-lose-it. Perhaps this use of "flex" as a verb influenced the emergence of others. Larry From indigo at WELL.COM Wed Oct 23 17:18:44 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:18:44 -0700 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at the Casper YMCA. While there I heard 2 different people refer to "length swimming" -- instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have always heard throughout all my lap swimming life in California. Any thoughts, explanations? Indigo From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 23 17:57:07 2002 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:57:07 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic linguist? While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there dialects that include this shift? D From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:01:29 2002 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:01:29 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: This treatment of the interdental fricatives is one of the commonly reported features of AAVE (African American Vernacular English) phonology. The appearance of stops in initial position for Standard English fricatives is found in vernaculars all over the US and Britain (and maybe elsewhere). The pattern of [f] for [theta] is, I think, more restricted but not exclusive to AAVE. I don't have Wells here to check. Duane Campbell wrote: > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > dialects that include this shift? > > D From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 23 18:02:58 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: We're simply going to have to have more information on what these jokes were. I appreciate the "wham bam thank you ma'am" joke, which was new to me. What's the economists' joke on TANSTAAFL? And what's the joke that supposedly gave rise to "missionary position"? Count me in the group that thinks that jokes can be a significant source of phrases and idioms, though of course their role can be exaggerated. "Don't make waves" seems less likely because the phrase derives so naturally from the literal meaning. John Baker From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:23:49 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:23:49 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the latter. Lesa Duane Campbell wrote: > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > linguist? > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > dialects that include this shift? > > D From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:26:40 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:26:40 -0400 Subject: New form of a word? In-Reply-To: <20021023163245.18872.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Ed Keer wrote: > I would think that it comes from flex-time. But I > haven't heard it before. I have often heard "flex" used as an intransitive verb meaning "work with a flexible schedule." Example: "Employees are allowed to flex in this department." I have not heard it used transitively as in "we are flexing your day." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:03:31 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:03:31 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <20021023.135711.-68603.1.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 1:57 PM -0400 10/23/02, Duane Campbell wrote: >According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an >imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one >sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or >in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted >sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > >Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic >linguist? Actually, there's a forensic linguistics list that some of us cross-subscribe to, and these questions have been discussed, with the overall sense that (based on past experience) it would be hasty to conclude anything about the actual nationality or native-speaker status of the sniper based on (what we've read about) his (the consensus is "his") messages. (The motivating factor for suspecting non-native-status was the salutation "Dear Mr. Policeman" or whatever it was.) > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there >dialects that include this shift? > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know where he was from before that.) Larry From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 18:21:24 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:21:24 -0700 Subject: "Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am" In-Reply-To: <000b01c27aa8$73002940$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: > > "Mr. Roberts" was originally a book by Thomas Heggen, > > published 1946, based on Heggen's experiences on the > > USS Virgo (how's that for the name of a Navy ship?). > > In 1948 it became the play of the same name, script > > by Heggen and Joshua Logan, and in 1955 the movie of > > the same name, script by Logan and Frank Nugent. I > > have seen all three, but not recently, so I can't say > > how much of the dialogue is carried over from the book > > to the play and from the play to the movie. > > A copy of the 1948 play is sitting on a shelf within arm's > reach. At the end > of Act II, Scene I, the character Gerhart says, "Well, there goes the > liberty. That was sure a wham-bam-thank you ma'am!" I just checked the DVD. This line doesn't appear in the movie. Presumably, it was too risque for 1950s Hollywood. The word "cat-house" is also cut from the same scene. I don't have the novel at hand and it's been some 20 years since I read it. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 23 18:24:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:24:18 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <3DB6E3F9.71C38AC2@missouri.edu> Message-ID: At 1:01 PM -0500 10/23/02, Matthew Gordon wrote: >This treatment of the interdental fricatives is one of the commonly reported >features of AAVE (African American Vernacular English) phonology. The >appearance of stops in initial position for Standard English fricatives is >found in vernaculars all over the US and Britain (and maybe elsewhere). The >pattern of [f] for [theta] is, I think, more restricted but not exclusive to >AAVE. I don't have Wells here to check. > also a shibboleth for Cockney, at least in contexts like "wif'" for "with" From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 23 18:22:39 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:22:39 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater variant? Herb Stahlke > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >dialects that include this shift? > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > where he was from before that.) > > Larry > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:16:47 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:16:47 -0400 Subject: The Full Enchilada (1959) Message-ID: OK, so I was looking for "papusa." This gives us an earlier date and another variant of "the whole enchilada" or "the big enchilada." I would have never searched for "the full enchilada" had I not found it here. From TIME magazine, 9 March 1959, pg. 32, col. 2: _EL SALVADOR_ _The Full Enchilada_ Though his country is the smallest in the Western Hemisphere, El Salvador's President, Lieutenant Colonel Jose Maria Lemus, 47, will get what Latin American diplomats call the "full enchilada" when he arrives in Washington next week on a twelve-day state visit to the U. S. Ingredients: an airport greeting from President Dwight Eisenhower, quarters at Blair House, a White House dinner party, an address to a joint session of Congress, a white tie dinner at Manhattan's Waldorf-Astoria, and a Broadway ticker-tape parade, a visit to Monticello and to the New Salem, Ill. log cabin village where Lincoln lived as a young man. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:13:41 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:13:41 -0400 Subject: Toad-in-a-Hole (1778) Message-ID: OED has 1787 for "toad in a/the hole." This wins me a date with Nigella Lawson. From the LITERATURE ONLINE database: Huddesford, George, 1749-1809 WARLEY, A SATIRE, PART THE SECOND (from The Second Part of Warley (1778)) ...Macarony takes place of a Toad in a Hole;... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 23 19:28:56 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:28:56 -0400 Subject: Crab Cakes (1898) Message-ID: The Meredith Bernstein-agented FOOD FESTIVAL USA (2002) mentions on page 129 that the earliest citation for "crab cakes" is 1939. The citation was taken from John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). If Meredith Bernstein is wondering, this is all just wild luck on my part. She signed a wonderful author. 25 September 1898, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 15 (poem): There dwelt in Gothic cottage A swell crowd from Baltimore. (...) In the gloaming came the gathering, "Feast of reason," "Flow of soul," When the best discussed of topics Was the flaky, steaming roll. Such crab cakes as greet our optics When the dinner tocsin peals, Will remain a memory with us, When we roam Elysian Fields. 21 March 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad for Siegel Cooper Co. department store, col. 2: CRAB MEATS--"Tull's" fine quality Chesapeake Deviled crab meat and carefully packed immediately after being caught. Delicious for making deviled crabs, croquettes, salad or crab cakes (crab shells free)... From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Oct 23 20:14:28 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:14:28 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native distinction? Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens (freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. "During the Middle Ages everybody was middle aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." (Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) T. M. Paikeday www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lesa Dill" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the > Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the > person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I > agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's > easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > > Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American > English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > latter. > > Lesa > > Duane Campbell wrote: > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > linguist? > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > D > From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 23 20:21:11 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:21:11 -0400 Subject: Orlando Sentinel: Instant messaging impacts kids' grammar (fwd) Message-ID: I passed the article on to a friend, who commented: >>> Perhaps the approach should be to consider IM as a dialect to understand. and learn to translate into other forms of English (I can just see a whole new cluster of homework assignments translating dialects into formal English and vice versa). Interesting. <<< -- Mark A. Mandel From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Wed Oct 23 21:11:49 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:11:49 -0400 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: I swam in high school (41-43, two state championships, Battle Creek, Michigan) and college (46-48). We usually said "lengths" instead of laps, e.g. "I did 100 lengths today." Other high svchool swimmers I talked with also used "lenths". Laps, however, was not uncommon. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Indigo Som To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: length swimming > On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at the Casper YMCA. > While there I heard 2 different people refer to "length swimming" -- > instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have always heard > throughout all my lap swimming life in California. Any thoughts, > explanations? > Indigo > From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 23 21:38:28 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:38:28 -0400 Subject: Comptroller v. Controller Message-ID: The Securities and Exchange Commission recently drew a distinction between these two words, which I had thought of as being interchangeable: >>The Sarbanes-Oxley Act uses the term "comptroller." It is our understanding that a comptroller position generally is the position in a government agency or non-profit organization with oversight responsibilities for the agency's or organization's primary accounting function. We believe that for-profit organizations typically use the term "controller" to describe this function. Therefore, throughout this release, we have used the term "controller" instead of the term "comptroller."<< Securities and Exchange Commission, Disclosure Required by Sections 404, 406 and 407 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, Release No. 33-8138, fn. 46 (Oct. 22, 2002). John Baker From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 23 21:54:14 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:54:14 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <000501c27ac1$2c4cc260$9aed540c@ibm15259> Message-ID: Chief Moose also has /v/ for voiced (th) medially, not just finally--as in 'other' and 'brother'. But haven't we diverged from the question about the sniper? Is the entire threatening letter available somewhere? I thought not, but if it is, it's quite easy to detect non-native English, in both oral and written productions. This is indeed something forensic linguists should be able to do. At least those of us in SLA can usually do this, and there are plenty such experts in the DC area. At 01:22 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class >African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep >serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly >Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater >variant? > >Herb Stahlke > > > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > >dialects that include this shift? > > > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > > where he was from before that.) > > > > Larry > > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Oct 23 21:59:29 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:59:29 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <3DB6E935.AAB42912@wku.edu> Message-ID: What do you mean by "the latter"? AAVE is the general usage now, but there's nothing wrong with Black English or Ebonics either. We're not into PCness. Personally, I favor BEV, for obvious reasons. At 01:23 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the >Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the >person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I >agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our >children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's >easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > >Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American >English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the >latter. > >Lesa > >Duane Campbell wrote: > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > linguist? > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > D From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 23 22:34:47 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:34:47 -0700 Subject: Comptroller v. Controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The Securities and Exchange Commission recently drew > a distinction between these two words, which I had thought of > as being interchangeable: > > >>The Sarbanes-Oxley Act uses the term "comptroller." > It is our understanding that a comptroller position generally > is the position in a government agency or non-profit > organization with oversight responsibilities for the agency's > or organization's primary accounting function. We believe > that for-profit organizations typically use the term > "controller" to describe this function. Therefore, throughout > this release, we have used the term "controller" instead of > the term "comptroller."<< > > Securities and Exchange Commission, Disclosure Required by > Sections 404, 406 and 407 of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, > Release No. 33-8138, fn. 46 (Oct. 22, 2002). Garner's Dict. of Modern American Usage supports the SEC's contention (as does my personal experience in both government and business). But this is a tendency only. You will find many public institutions that use "controller" and many businesses that use "comptroller." There is no semantic distinction, only in spheres of use. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 22:46:19 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:46:19 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <00b901c27ad0$cb0e6660$8163e440@co611769a> Message-ID: Someone (T. M. I guess, since he has done it before, even in a book-length treatment) seems to be confusing "native" and "fluent," particularly "fluent in a genre." I am a native speaker of English, remarkable disfluent in many genres. dInIs >I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, >illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native >distinction? > >Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens >(freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert >opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to >comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." >(Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > >T. M. Paikeday >www.paikeday.net > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lesa Dill" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM >Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > >> The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on >the >> Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether >the >> person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say >native. I >> agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our >> children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think >it's >> easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or >non-native. >> >> Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African >American >> English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the >> latter. >> >> Lesa >> >> Duane Campbell wrote: >> >> > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an >> > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one >> > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time >or >> > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted >> > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. >> > >> > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic >> > linguist? >> > >> > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. >Moose) >> > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". >> > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, >> > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent >> > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech >> > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there >> > dialects that include this shift? >> > >> > D >> -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From mkuha at BSU.EDU Wed Oct 23 22:43:33 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:43:33 -0400 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 by Jonathan Serrie Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 00:41:50 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:41:50 EDT Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the pond for some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for years. I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also have a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team plays. BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. Fritz > Noteworthy also is that in the US we often say "soccer team" and "soccer > game", but that in UK "football club/side" (sometimes "team") and "football > match" are more usual. In fact, I don't think "football game" is allowable > in Brit. Eng. (at least, not for a "soccer game"), but I may be wrong. > Maybe Michael Q can chime in on this. > > This may be one of the only areas in which British English has demonstrably > influenced American English, with real evidence to show it. > From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Oct 24 01:24:22 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:24:22 -0700 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Mai: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mai Kuha" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station > Wednesday, October 23, 2002 > by Jonathan Serrie > > Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html This is interesting. But it's hardly surprising. "Southern" accents tend to be thought of by a lot of people as "sounding stupid and uneducated". This is a stereotype, of course, but it doesn't stop some people from thinking that way. Conversely, certain "Brooklyn" types are thought to sound "rude and unpleasant". And in radio and on TV, *any* "regional" accent tends to be frowned upon. Some people with such accents even take speech lessons to try to "get rid" of them. But a trained ear, and one who has been somewhere, can usually tell the announcers who take speech lessons to "correct" their accents. I used to hear this sort of thing a lot on NPR, which is one of the reasons I stopped listening to them. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 24 01:30:35 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 20:30:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row Message-ID: Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > >To: "19cBB" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com> >From: "John Thorn" >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:38:05 -0400 >Subject: [19cBB] Murderers' Row >More in the rummaging vein. I hope this of interest. > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from a >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: > >Murderers' Row was an actual alley long before the Civil War, starting where >Watts Street ended at Sullivan Street, midway along the block between Grand >and Broome Streets. > >Now part of the fashionable Soho district, Murderers' Row was one of many >mean streets in the neighborhood later known as Darktown (as the Chinese had >Chinatown and the Jews had Jewtown--yes, that was what they called the Lower >East Side in the years before 1900). > > > >John Thorn > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 03:55:57 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:55:57 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (continued) Message-ID: FYI of the City Section of THE NEW YORK TIMES asked DARE about "selling the Brooklyn Bridge." (Mayor Bloomberg needs money.) DARE sent FYI to me. I had already posted the 15 February 1920 citation from NY TIMES full text. I got a few more ADS-ers involved (George Thompson, Fred Shapiro, David Shulman). David Shulman was profiled in the TIMES regarding Steve Brodie. He sends along this, from THE NEW YORKER, 17 May 1952, pg. 58, col. 3: The two things Brooklyn Bridge is most noted for--that confidence men used to sell it to gullible outlanders, and that Steve Brodie jumped off it--have little, if any, basis in fact. Although, forty of fifty years ago, confidence men and bunko steerers found rich pickings among the stream of rubbernecks that flowed along the promenade, the transactions involved elixirs of life, gold bricks, counterfeit money, patents for horseless vehicles, contraptions for transmuting base metals into gold, and so on, but never, as far as anyone knows, the bridge. The phrase "selling the Brooklyn Bridge" somehow entered the language, but there is no evidence that it was ever sold by anyone until December 2, 1945, when Mayor LaGuardia sold it to Jacob W. Schwab, president of the United Merchants Manufacturing Company, in return for a check for $17,500,000 at a War Bond auction held on the plaza of the Manhattan approach. All Schwab got, besides his War Bonds and a hearty laugh, was a fine wooden scale model of the bridge, built by E. S. Newman, of the Department of Public Works. Ricky Jay, as stated before, sold the Brooklyn Bridge every night in his Off-Broadway magic show recently. A web search turned up the name George Parker, "the original Brooklyn Bridge seller." Parker allegedly tried to sell other New York landmarks as well. The NEW YORK TIMES full text didn't turn up anything at all on such a "George Parker." Perhaps early tomorrow I'll go to SIBL and try to get on the WALL STREET JOURNAL full text database. WSJ might have a greater range of financial swindlers. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 04:26:54 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:26:54 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) Message-ID: A middle initial threw me off. Sorry about that. Here are two 1928 articles. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES hit is still 1920, but there is a "1901" date mentioned here. 8 July 1928, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 21: _CONFIDENCE MAN JAILED._ _McCloundy, Who Once Sold the_ _Brooklyn Bridge, Faces Life Term._ William McCloundy, 68 years old, of Asbury Park, N. J., whose chief failing was selling the Brooklyn Bridge, lots in City Hall Park and other property he did not own, was held without bail on a charge of second degree grand larceny by Judge Vaum in Kings County Court yesterday. According to detectives who extradited McCloundy on Friday night, he sold the Brooklyn bridge in 1901, for which he was convicted of grand larceny and served two and a half years in Sing Sing. (Anything on WESTLAW?--ed.) 18 December 1928, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 33: _FORGER GETS LIFE TERM._ _G. C. Parker, Confidence Man_ _Once "Sold" Brooklyn Bridge._ George C. Parker, 58 years old, said by the police to be an old-time confidence man, was sentenced to Sing Sing for life by Judge McLaughlin in the Kings County Court yesterday. (...) His early exploits are said to have included the "sale" of the Brooklyn Bridge... (Again, WESTLAW?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 05:03:32 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:03:32 -0400 Subject: Steak Tartare (1895); Food Festival (1912) Message-ID: I work too darn hard. --------------------------------------------------------------- STEAK TARTARE Rec.food.historic--OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD's Andy Smith's sometime posting ground--has had about 30 messages this week on "steak tartare." OED and Merriam-Webster have 1911. One poster traced it to 1900. I'll beat it quickly (without searching my files). From the free EARLY CANADIANA ONLINE: COOKERY Richards, Amy G. Montreal: E. M. Renouf 1895 Pg. 266: BEEFSTEAK A LA TARTARE (Recipe follows--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD FESTIVAL "Food festival" is an interesting term to trace. I had a post here two years ago on the term. "Food festival" appears to have taken off post-WWII. Notice the large gap in the first four citations here. 9 May 1912, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4 ad: Our great May Food Festival. More popular than ever. (...) Greenhut-Siegel Cooper Co. Both sides of 6th Ave. 18th and 19th Streets "The Big Store" 9 October 1938, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 178: Committees have been appointed to work out plans for a sea-food festival. (At Virginia Beach, Virginia--ed.) 6 November 1938, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 156: _A Food Festival in Old Kentucky._ 19 October 1948, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 30: Macy's bids its customers to a tasting party this week. A Fine Food Festival opened yesterday on its eighth floor;... From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 11:46:50 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:46:50 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) In-Reply-To: <5B2238A9.440D5FDF.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A middle initial threw me off. Sorry about that. Here are two 1928 > articles. The earliest NEW YORK TIMES hit is still 1920, but there is a > "1901" date mentioned here. I had already found the 1928 articles yesterday and told the Times reporter about them. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mkuha at BSU.EDU Thu Oct 24 12:27:01 2002 From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:27:01 -0500 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station In-Reply-To: <052301c27afc$1bb41850$d80ed63f@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mai Kuha" > Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station >> Click on the URL below for the rest of this story: >> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66422,00.html On 10/23/02 8:24 PM, Anne Gilbert wrote: > This is interesting. But it's hardly surprising. "Southern" accents tend > to be thought of by a lot of people as "sounding stupid and uneducated". > (...) And in radio and on TV, *any* "regional" > accent tends to be frowned upon. (...) > Anne G True. I posted the URL not so much as the shock of the day but because it's interesting to see what kinds of comments about language variation make it into the media. Still, matched guise experiments on Southern speech and on stigmatized language varieties in general show that, while these varieties earn their speakers low ratings on status characteristics such as intelligence, at the same time they correlate with positive impressions on so-called solidarity characteristics, such as friendliness and trustworthiness, at least when the speakers rated are men. In the context of the job of a DJ for a country station, we might have expected the solidarity concerns to outweigh status concerns, so actually this case was at least mildly surprising. -Mai From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 12:34:59 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 05:34:59 -0700 Subject: length swimming In-Reply-To: <010c01c27ad8$e86bd1e0$59d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: I also swam in highschool (80-84), and more recently on a Masters team. I've always used laps. Although non-swimmers often get confused when you talk about laps and I usually translate into lengths. BTW most pools I've been in had designated "lap-lanes". Ed --- Robert Fitzke wrote: > I swam in high school (41-43, two state > championships, Battle Creek, > Michigan) and college (46-48). We usually said > "lengths" instead of laps, > e.g. "I did 100 lengths today." Other high svchool > swimmers I talked with > also used "lenths". Laps, however, was not > uncommon. > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Indigo Som > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 1:18 PM > Subject: length swimming > > > > On a recent trip to Wyoming, I went swimming at > the Casper YMCA. > > While there I heard 2 different people refer to > "length swimming" -- > > instead of "lap swimming", which is what I have > always heard > > throughout all my lap swimming life in California. > Any thoughts, > > explanations? > > Indigo > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 12:51:11 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:51:11 EDT Subject: length swimming Message-ID: Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 13:00:28 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:00:28 -0700 Subject: freshman English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Oct 24 13:05:08 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:05:08 -0400 Subject: length swimming Message-ID: Most swim announcers I've heard would say "Going into the last 50 (25) meters, Fitzke leads by two lengths." :-) Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:51 AM Subject: Re: length swimming > Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. > > Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. > > - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) > From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 24 13:19:23 2002 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:19:23 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Is there a DARE entry for "nucular/nuclear"? President Bush and former Pres. Carter favor "nucular"; any other presidents or nationally recognized people who have favored that pronunciation? Growing up in Utah in the 50's, "nucular" was my pronunciation, and remained so until I was convinced otherwise - some time in the late 60's or early 70's. I still occasionally revert to that pronunciation. ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 24 13:56:45 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:56:45 -0400 Subject: freshman English Message-ID: Thanks, James Smith. Freshman English is worth repeating, even if for fun! ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: freshman English > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly > creeped into > >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to > town expo- > >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the > countryside.... > Finally > >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from > port to port by > >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into > reorientation muta- > >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European > countrys had > >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists > were universal > >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin > revolted Russia. > >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to > an end when a > >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last > stage is us." > > > ===== > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 24 13:56:25 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Dennis, I think this is a red herring; I never even thought of fluency, let alone mention it in my book-length treatment as an arguing point. "Fluent in a genre" sounds like a subspecies of Clupeus harengus. Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a recording may be available. I am fairly confident the sniper is going to be caught one of these days; Bush has placed the Federal resources at the disposal of the police. At that time, linguists should be able to conduct a more thorough evaluation of the sniper's speech. I think this would simply confirm that he is a native speaker of his own idiolect. This applies to everyone who speaks English or any other language for that matter (Chomsky's current position incidentally). TOM PAIKEDAY www.paikeday.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > Someone (T. M. I guess, since he has done it before, even in a > book-length treatment) seems to be confusing "native" and "fluent," > particularly "fluent in a genre." I am a native speaker of English, > remarkable disfluent in many genres. > > dInIs > > > > > > >I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > >illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > >distinction? > > > >Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens > >(freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert > >opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to > >comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > > > >"During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > >aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into > >Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- > >sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally > >Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by > >inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- > >tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had > >demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal > >suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. > >Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a > >nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." > >(Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > > > >T. M. Paikeday > >www.paikeday.net > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Lesa Dill" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM > >Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > > > > >> The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on > >the > >> Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether > >the > >> person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say > >native. I > >> agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > >> children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think > >it's > >> easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or > >non-native. > >> > >> Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African > >American > >> English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > >> latter. > >> > >> Lesa > >> > >> Duane Campbell wrote: > >> > >> > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > >> > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > >> > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time > >or > >> > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > >> > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > >> > > >> > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > >> > linguist? > >> > > >> > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. > >Moose) > >> > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >> > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >> > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >> > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >> > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >> > dialects that include this shift? > >> > > >> > D > >> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics and Languages > 740 Wells Hall A > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office - (517) 353-0740 > Fax - (517) 432-2736 > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 14:13:05 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:13:05 EDT Subject: Donald Lance dies Message-ID: This is from the American Name Society list. What a grim week. Everybody here, stay healthy! Barry Popik Subj: Don Lance died! Date: 10/24/2002 9:54:12 AM Eastern Standard Time From: edlawson at NETSYNC.NET Reply-to: lawson at fredonia.edu To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Sent from the Internet (Details) Friends of Don Lance This morning I received a message from Demsey Lance that Don died last night (Wednesday, October 23rd.) at his home in Columbia, Missouri. Funeral/memorial arrangements are pending. If you are interested in further information, let me have your e-mail address and I will relay further news as it becomes available. His brothers, Demsey and Frank, are flying up from Texas at this time. *ed* -- Edwin D. Lawson can also be used Professor Emeritus of Psychology State University College, Fredonia Telephone: 716 673-1921 FAX: 716 673-1921 From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Oct 24 14:19:53 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:19:53 -0600 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <109.1ab5a379.2ae89bce@aol.com> Message-ID: I used to coach youth soccer in Montana. The positions were officially designated as Fritz indicates; however, my players preferred the more exciting sounding 'striker' for 'forward'. Sometimes we also used 'halfback' in place of 'mid'. When I played intramural in California (years ago!) 'fullback' was more prevalent than 'defender'. As to 'goalie', AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) issued an edict one year that we were to say 'keeper' or 'goalkeeper' instead - but of course, nobody paid any attention! 'Teams' and 'games' were the usual usage in our league. Scott Swanson On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the pond for > some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for years. > I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon > (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are > forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also have > a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each > position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. > A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team plays. > BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. > Fritz > > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 24 14:38:51 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:38:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:30:35PM -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: > Here's an item from the 19th Century Baseball discussion group: > > > >While the usual etymology for this term is plausible--that it derives from > >a > >row of cells in New York's Tombs reserved for the most dastardly of > >criminals--this fact gleaned from Charles AHemstreet's Nooks and Cranies of > >old New York (Scribner, 1899) might give pause: Jerry, I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? Jesse Sheidlower From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 14:51:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:51:43 EDT Subject: Grey Zone/Grey Area Message-ID: The cover story in the October 25-31, 2002 Manhattan JEWISH SENTINEL is "The Grey Zone." That's the title of a new movie about the holocaust. There are about 7,000 Google hits. See also "Gray Zone." Neither is in OED. There are about ten times as many hits for "grey/gray area." OED has this term from the 1960s, but only as a poverty area that was literally shaded grey on maps. Surely, the larger sense of the term is much older than the 1960s, or even the 1940s? From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:04:24 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:04:24 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <010501c27b65$28ce0960$8163e440@co611769a> Message-ID: Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC "expert"? --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind > of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a > recording may be available. _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 24 15:06:38 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:06:38 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a five-year season ticket holder to DC United (our local MLS team), and one of six Anglo members of the Latino fan club - it seems to be dependent on who you're talking to, whether it's a US American, a Latin American, or a European (occasionally you'll get an US American who follows Brit Footy avidly and therefore uses the more Euro terms "striker" and "keeper" all the time). Among the US Americans - "goalie" is more prevalent than "keeper", but you'll hear "who's on goal?" more often than "who's the goalie/keeper?" (On Fritz's BTW - does that mean your players have to get the ball past their OWN goalie to score?) We refer to the "team" and the "league" but it's a "match" not a "game" and a "pitch" not a "field." The positions are as Fritz's mentions. On a side note on soccer fan usages; one of my favorites - which comes from the Anglo fan club that sits right next to us - whenever they think that a player from the opposing team has "taken a dive" and is faking his injuries - they scream "Greg Louganis!" Katy Kathleen E. Miller Research Assistant to William Safire The New York Times At 08:19 AM 10/24/02 -0600, you wrote: >I used to coach youth soccer in Montana. The positions were officially >designated as Fritz indicates; however, my players preferred the more >exciting sounding 'striker' for 'forward'. Sometimes we also used >'halfback' in place of 'mid'. When I played intramural in California >(years ago!) 'fullback' was more prevalent than 'defender'. As to >'goalie', AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) issued an edict one >year that we were to say 'keeper' or 'goalkeeper' instead - but of course, >nobody paid any attention! 'Teams' and 'games' were the usual usage in our >league. > >Scott Swanson > >On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fritz Juengling wrote: > > > I have been curious about various soccer terms on both sides of the > pond for > > some time. I have had kids playing soccer and I have been a coach for > years. > > I do not know whether the terms we use are common in the US or just Oregon > > (or just Salem); I hope others will chime in. The positions we have are > > forward, midfielder (usually shortened to 'mid') and defender. We also > have > > a 'goalie', altho I do quite often hear 'keeper.' We often preface each > > position with 'left, center or right'. We also have soccer teams and games. > > A club to me would suggest the organization or league in which a team > plays. > > BTW, our goalie defends the OTHER team's goal, not ours. > > Fritz > > > > From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:19:47 2002 From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:19:47 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <19435.3244446264@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Later reports that the stepson, Malvo, is a native of Jamaica, still doesn't add up to "Hispanic" --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:04 AM -0400 David Bergdahl wrote: > Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the > NBC "expert"? > > --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > wrote: > >> Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that >> the sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with >> an accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have >> been based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is >> a kind of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >> recording may be available. > _________________________________________ > "We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi _________________________________________ "We are all New Yorkers" --Dominique Moisi From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 15:34:08 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:34:08 EDT Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/24/02 10:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA writes: > Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English Huh? Someone speaking in AAVE is probably African-American, but unless he spoke something exotic like "Hillbilly" I cannot imagine what criteria would give away that he were Caucasian. A Hispanic accent would not do (and do you classify Hispanics as Caucasians? Most race survey questionnaires do not) as there are many black Hispanics, particularly in the Caribbean. And just how does one display a "suspected" Heespanic accent een writing rather than een espeaking? I will grant that your Internet Service Provider gives away that it is NOT Hispanic by mispelling "simpa/tico". (And speaking of NBC Nightly News, does Peter Jennings still bother to carry his green card?) - Jim Landau From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 15:41:18 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:41:18 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: <19435.3244446264@dhcp-073-091.ellis.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC >"expert"? The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know more (or at least be told more), I suspect. L > >--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > wrote: > >>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the >>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an >>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been >>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind >>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >>recording may be available. >_________________________________________ >"We are all New Yorkers" > --Dominique Moisi From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 15:51:48 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:51:48 EDT Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: In a message dated 10/24/02 9:19:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM writes: > President Bush and former Pres. Carter favor "nucular" I am a great non-admirer of President Carter, but I must note that he was a nucular engineer in the US Navy and therefore on this one subject speaks with authority. - Jim Landau P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days living in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop is Judishooairy Square". From savan at EROLS.COM Thu Oct 24 15:57:19 2002 From: savan at EROLS.COM (Leslie Savan) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Jokes as Sources of Phrases Message-ID: That sounds great. I'll ask Jolie. Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Fred Shapiro wrote: > > #So it looks like the phrase may have originated in a joke. I wonder how > #many others had joke origins. Legman indicates elsewhere that "don't make > #waves" originated as the punchline of a scatological joke. My researches > #suggest that "there's no such thing as a free lunch" originated as the > #punchline of an economists' joke. > > Cf. "Where were you when the shit hit the fan?" > > Somewhat similarly, growing up in the fifties and sixties and reading, > inter alia, my parents' and grandparents' old books and magazines, I > gradually reconstructed the original of "That was no X, that was my Y!" > from all the parodies and half-quotes that assumed that it was (overly?) > well known to the reader. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 15:54:59 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:54:59 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Jim L posted: >> Going into the last lap, Jones leads by two lengths. Going into the last length, Jones leads by two laps. - Jim Landau (somewhat out of the swim of things) << I would say that in the first sentence, "length" means 'body length' in this (swimming) context (as it would in horse racing, too, btw). The 2nd sentence does not seem logical to me, but then to me "length" never means 'lap', per my idiolect and personal experience. I am an avid NON-swimmer, but my 3 children all swam for many years -- YMCA, US Swimming, high school, one in college. MANY, many meets attended, officiated at, scored for, talked about, for many years. And, my ex-wife was/is a swim coach, and a Masters swimmer, for over 20 years. I would say that I know more about swimming and swimming lingo than anyone who never goes in the water. Frank Abate From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 24 16:06:54 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:06:54 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Murderer's Row In-Reply-To: <20021024143851.GA17927@panix.com> Message-ID: > I thought that the baseball sense predated the Tombs sense by > about fifteen years. Is that not the case, or is the assumption > that the Tombs sense is earlier but unrecorded? > > Jesse Sheidlower Dickson's New Baseball Dictionary gives an 1858 date for baseball use of "murderers' row," but says the jail usage predates that and is the ultimate origin. Only indirect citations are given. Dickson cites an April 1948 "Baseball Digest" article by Bill Bryson (either a different Bill Bryson or a typo in the date) that refers to an 1858 newspaper article. Also a Ph.D. dissertation by Edward J. Nichols, "An Historical Dictionary of Baseball Terminology" (1939) refers to an 1858 clipping in Henry Chadwick's scrapbook that uses the term. From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 16:28:41 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:28:41 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <20021024131923.78133.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have recently done some research on the presidential use of this term (for an article soon to appear, I'm given to understand, in NYT), and can report that: 1. Besides GW Bush, Carter and Eisenhower also said a form of the "NOOK-y at -l@r"; "-yoo-" (@ = schwa) pron. Carter sometimes sounded like he was actually saying ?NYOO-kee- at r?. I was unable to find an audio pron on this from presidents Ford or GHW Bush. 2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a "NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. 3. I expect that Truman or Eisenhower were the first presidents who ever had to use the word in a public speech. DDE definitely used it; I'm not sure about HST; could not find a use of it by him, but he may have, sometime. Prior to the dropping of the atomic bomb (Aug 1945), the word just did not come up much, outside of the mouths of technicians and scientists. 4. There is a discussion of the whole issue at www.linguistlist.org. Also an item on it at the Random House dicts website, www.randomhouse.com/wotd. (Aside: We can be absolutely certain that Warren G. Harding NEVER said the word _nuclear_. He was, shall we say, intellectually challenged, and perhaps the most naive president of all. BUT he was considered handsome and distinguished-looking, and in 1920, the first year of women's suffrage in the US, the Republicans nominated him partly for his looks (hoping to win the votes of the women), and partly also because he was so gullible and could be manipulated by the boys in the smoke-filled rooms. Surprisingly, WGH was a fairly decent speech-deliverer (he could read them, though he likely never wrote one), although he had problems with words and prons, kinda like GWB.) Enid Pearsons, long the pron editor for Random House dicts, helped me get the facts straight on all this (thanks, Enid). Frank Abate From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 16:33:04 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:33:04 -0400 Subject: Just coincidence? Message-ID: Montgomery (AL)/Montgomery (County, MD) Washington (State)/Washington, DC Tacoma (WA)/Takoma Park (Montgomery County, MD) OK, none of the snipings took place in Takoma Park, but it does seem as though these are greater than chance resemblances. Or maybe not. The CNN guy, maybe Wolf Blitzer himself, just asked the police chief in Montgomery AL whether he thought there was a connection, and the latter didn't seem to understand the question. L From Friolly at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 16:40:20 2002 From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:40:20 EDT Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. same priciple as in basketball. The other team has a basket, or goal, and you try to keep them from scoring into it, i.e. their basket or goal. Fritz > (On Fritz's BTW - does that mean your players have to get > the ball past their OWN goalie to score?) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 16:44:27 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:44:27 -0400 Subject: lap and length Message-ID: Peter Mc. said and asked: >> I've always wondered whether a lap in swimming was a one-way trip or a round trip, but I always seemed to be in the water when I wondered that, and didn't have a dictionary handy. Consulting my AHD when this thread started didn't help: it only mentions a complete circuit of a running track. I ASSUME the swimming equivalent would be a round-trip: if so, then a length would be half a lap, and the two words would refer to different things rather than being regional variants. Is that what you mean by "'length' never means 'lap'," Frank? << As to this, "lap" is used -- at swim meets, at least -- to mean 'passage in one direction for one length of the pool', and never means 'round trip'. So what I meant was that "length" does not mean 'lap' in my idiolect, as regards its use at swim meets. And I now add that "lap" never means 'round trip', that is, 2 single passages down or lengths of the pool. I should have added that "length" is used, casually and outside of swim meets, to mean 'passage in one direction for one length of the pool'. Made up example: "She swam 16 lengths of the pool as a morning workout". That would mean 16 **laps**, not round trips or circuits. In a 25-yard pool, "16 lengths/laps" = 400 yards. So in this casual usage "lap" is equivalent to "length". It would be revealing to see corpus evidence for "length(s)", to see how often it is followed by the words "of the pool". Jesse (in your abundant spare time)? Frank Abate From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 24 17:22:02 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:22:02 -0700 Subject: lap and length In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Super!!! That means I've been doing twice as many laps as I thought I was! (Now if I just wouldn't always lose track of how many I've done--whether one-way or round-trip....) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:44 PM -0400 Frank Abate wrote: > "lap" is used -- at swim meets, at least -- to mean 'passage > in one direction for one length of the pool', and never means 'round > trip'. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Oct 24 17:28:23 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:28:23 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >[...] >2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. [...] Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? Wendalyn Nichols From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Oct 24 17:32:54 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:32:54 -0700 Subject: Country DJ Too Southern for Station Message-ID: Mai: > True. I posted the URL not so much as the shock of the day but because it's > interesting to see what kinds of comments about language variation make it > into the media. Still, matched guise experiments on Southern speech and on > stigmatized language varieties in general show that, while these varieties > earn their speakers low ratings on status characteristics such as > intelligence, at the same time they correlate with positive impressions on > so-called solidarity characteristics, such as friendliness and > trustworthiness, at least when the speakers rated are men. In the context of > the job of a DJ for a country station, we might have expected the solidarity > concerns to outweigh status concerns, so actually this case was at least > mildly surprising. That might be true, except in places like Atlanta, which is probably trying to "upgrade" its image. Then the "solidarity" concerns might not have as much weight. Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 18:10:40 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:10:40 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021024132656.00a780f0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: Wendalyn Nichols said: >At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >>[...] >>2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >>heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >>"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. >[...] > >Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? > Well, if you're appealing to JFK's pronunciation as the right [sic] way, surely it would be "NOO-klee- at h". -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 24 18:46:13 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:46:13 -0400 Subject: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge (1928 articles) Message-ID: A Westlaw search finds nothing for McCloundy or G.C. Parker. That does not throw the reports in the New York Times in question, but only means that there do not seem to have been any published reports of those cases. John Baker From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 24 19:19:41 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:19:41 -0400 Subject: FW: nuclear/nucular (and dict coverage) Message-ID: Yes, what Wendalyn N says is correct -- Kennedy and (I think) Nixon said "NOO-klee- at r" (not what I mistakenly typed before). THAT is the "right way", my jocular way of saying that the "NOO-klee- at r" pron is given first in most dictionaries, and that it is the pron that pedants, schoolmarms, and other miscellaneous correctors of speech insist on. I myself say "NOO-klee- at r", btw; it is simply a matter of personal preference. My view (ahem) is that people can and even should pronounce "nuclear" -- and all other words -- as they learned them, either from their parents and peers, or as they were taught in school. And if one has never actually heard a word pronounced at all, that person should (I know and accept that most folks don't) look up that word in a good, up-to-date dictionary of American English. Any of the Big 4 "college" dicts (Web New World, Random House, Merriam-Webster, or Amer Heritage) do nicely for pron help. Though they differ on usage and other such advice (and some other things, too), they generally get the basic facts right most of the time. Another good choice for prons (and other things) is the New Oxford American Dictionary, or its abridged descendant, the just-published Oxford American College Dictionary. Like the Big 4, the new Oxford American dicts were edited in the USA by American lexos. And the NEW Oxford American dicts are up-to-date, having just been completed in the past 2 years. DO NOT EVER USE the "Oxford American Dictionary" (copyright 1980 or so), and please, PLEASE do not buy it. It has a telltale red jacket in its mass-market edition, and a yellow jacket in the trade paperback edition -- the latter is the very same book, page-for-page, just larger trim size and type. In fact, it is one book that I would like to see all copies of destroyed -- that's how awful, and now woefully out-of-date, it truly is. For Oxford American dicts, use the ones with the BLUE jackets. AVOID the old one (check the copyright date) with the red or the yellow jacket -- that's the bad one. Sorry to go on so about dicts, but I wanted to get this off my chest. Frank Abate At 12:28 PM 10/24/02 -0400, Frank Abate wrote: >[...] >2. Kennedy said "NOO-ky at -l@r" (that is, the "right way"). I'm pretty sure I >heard an audio clip of Nixon on this, and I believe he too was a >"NOO-ky at -l@r"-sayer. [...] Don't you mean "NOO-klee- at r" as the "right way"? Wendalyn Nichols From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 24 20:01:07 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:01:07 EDT Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: OT, but one news report stated that "the car was fingerprinted". - Jim Landau From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 24 20:55:23 2002 From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:55:23 +0100 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: > Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. > You don't guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the > other team's goal. same priciple as in basketball. The other team > has a basket, or goal, and you try to keep them from scoring into > it, i.e. their basket or goal. Er, we are talking about the game we in Britain call football and you call soccer, aren't we? The goalkeeper (also called the 'goalie') guards his own team's goal (that is, the enclosure with the posts, crossbar and net behind) and members of the opposing team can only score goals by getting the ball past him. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Thu Oct 24 20:56:42 2002 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:56:42 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. "First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or "keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or "keeper". Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most certainly does NOT apply in soccer. So the person guarding YOUR goal is YOUR goalkeeper. You're shooting for the OTHER TEAM'S goal, and THEIR goalkeeper is defending it. You score by getting the ball into THEIR net. If you get it into your own net, it's an OWN GOAL ("autogol" in Spanish), and it counts for the other team. Other points: There's no rule on this, but a lot of soccer-loving and soccer-knowledgable Amerks find "pitch" excessively British. Like, when we mean soccer shoes, we don't say "boots", do we? I don't think we have to import every Britishism for soccer, er, football. That'd be right naff, inn'it?" From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Oct 24 21:09:48 2002 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:09:48 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021024164820.00a1f820@smtp-store.nytimes.com> Message-ID: Kathleen E. Miller said: >At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >>A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >>guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. > > >This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the >original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite >direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our >editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a >book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling >me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. > >"First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian >of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or >"keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, >although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and >the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or >"keeper". >Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's >just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your >team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is >standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is >coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in >philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. >So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most >certainly does NOT apply in soccer. Well, it's obvious that this wasn't written by a linguist! It's long been clear to me that hockey, basketball, soccer, and, for all I know, lacrosse and a bunch of other games all have the same "deep structure". There are a few basic parameters that have to be set (the length of a game, the surface you play on, the number of players on a team, and the relative size of goal and ball) and the more obvious differences, notably the relative difficulty of scoring a point (from which follows a typical final score) follow from the settings of these more abstract paramaters. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 00:22:09 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:22:09 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My earlier point exactly. And what you call the hole/basket,net/whatever you score into (mine, yours, Hussenpfeffer's) is interesting only by variable usage. In basketball you make points at "your end of the court," but I cannot defend this on logical grounds (nor could I defend the other label). dInIs >Kathleen E. Miller said: >>At 12:40 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >>>A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >>>guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. >> >> >>This is semantically interesting, I think. I'm not sure if I am missing the >>original point. But common usage seems to sway the exact opposite >>direction. Just to make sure I wasn't "misunderstanding" I asked one of our >>editors at the magazine who used to edit the sports page (And has written a >>book titled "The Death of Hockey") and this is what he had to say. Calling >>me on many things but backing me up on the "our goal" thing. >> >>"First off, "goalie" is really hockey only ("goaler", if you're a Canadian >>of 60 or older, is also acceptable). It really has to be "goalkeeper" or >>"keeper" if you're talking about soccer, even if you're an American, >>although if you say "goalie" you're not wrong. But the first choice, and >>the term that should appear more often, should always be "goalkeeper" or >>"keeper". >>Next, you would ask not "Who's on goal" but "Who's IN goal." Right? That's >>just a typo in the original message, no? And the person in goal for your >>team, or in the nets for your team, is your goalkeeper. He or she is >>standing inside YOUR goal. I don't know where this basketball thing is >>coming from, but there are no two sports more diametrically opposed in >>philosophy than basketball and socccer, unless it's basketball and hockey. >>So a good rule of thumb is if some principle applies in basketball, it most >>certainly does NOT apply in soccer. > >Well, it's obvious that this wasn't written by a linguist! It's long >been clear to me that hockey, basketball, soccer, and, for all I >know, lacrosse and a bunch of other games all have the same "deep >structure". There are a few basic parameters that have to be set (the >length of a game, the surface you play on, the number of players on a >team, and the relative size of goal and ball) and the more obvious >differences, notably the relative difficulty of scoring a point (from >which follows a typical final score) follow from the settings of >these more abstract paramaters. > > >-- >============================================================================== >Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu >Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 >New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 25 00:26:19 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:26:19 EDT Subject: Grey Zone (continued); Kosher Conspiracy Message-ID: GREY ZONE (continued) 9 January 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 22: _The Great Gray_ _Zone of Crime_ There is a twilight area of crime--inhabited by the bootlegger, the professional gambler, the racketeer, the blackmailer--which may be called the gray zone. It rests between the white zone--the law-abiding people--and the black zone, whose members are the ruthless murderers and desperadoes. (This article appeared two days later in the Magazine section...OED has 1960 for "twilight area"--ed.) 7 June 1931, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 14: _"GREY ZONE" CHIEF MENACE_ (A map of China is shown--ed.) 20 May 1951, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 4: The Admiral outlined the United States program for the present period which he described as "the grey area" between all-out war and peace. 22 February 1959, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 64: _"Gray Belt" of Decay Likely to Grow, Study of Trends in 12 Regions Finds_ (...) In this expanding gray area Dr. Vernon predicted in his report a long-run decline in the intensive use of space as sites for homes and jobs. (OED has 1963 for this "gray area"--ed.) 13 August 1960, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 14: _The City's "Gray Areas"_ (...) First priority for renewal resulting from the survey is expected to go to New York's so-called "gray areas"--blighted neighborhoods that have not yet sunk to slum depths. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- KOSHER CONSPIRACY _British Views of American Jews_ _The "Kosher Conspiracy" Misconception_ --NEW YORK SUN, 24 October 2002, pg. 7, cols. 2-3 headline. "Kosher Conspiracy" got big play earlier this year from an article in the NEW STATESMAN. (This same publication, just about a week earlier, said that TAD coined "hot dog.") "Kosher Conspiracy" was not coined just this year. Google Groups has it from 1992. It means literally that. People believe that "kosher" on a product raises its price, and that the money goes to the Jews (who, by the way, were all warned in advance about the World Trade Center). How old is this term? From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Oct 24 21:46:32 2002 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:46:32 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I haven't been home since this morning, so maybe this has already been discussed by the media, but isn't it likely that what the officials heard as an "accent" or "broken English" in the "garbled" phone calls was simply Jamaican Creole? We can speak of a "written accent" too, usually both cultural and linguistic, which might explain the unfamiliar "Dear Mr. Policeman," etc. At 11:41 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: >>Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC >>"expert"? > >The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, >using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican >locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a >reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) >Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard >to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne >Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, >either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know >more (or at least be told more), I suspect. > >L > >> >>--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" >> wrote: >> >>>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the >>>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an >>>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been >>>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind >>>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a >>>recording may be available. >>_________________________________________ >>"We are all New Yorkers" >> --Dominique Moisi From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 00:37:17 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:37:17 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Jim Landau writes, >> ...and do you classify Hispanics as Caucasians? Most race survey >> questionnaires do not as there are many black Hispanics, particularly >> in the Caribbean. Hispanics, as US government forms, reports, etc. consistently state, may be of any race. The word denotes language and culture, not race. >> And speaking of NBC Nightly News, does Peter Jennings still bother to >> carry his green card? I don't know about the card, but last I saw, Jennings was with ABC. ;-) --Dodi Schultz From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 25 01:11:38 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:11:38 -0500 Subject: Donald Lance remembered Message-ID: I was very saddened to receive the news about Don. I met him a year or so after my 1968 arrival in Missouri to teach at the University of Missouri- Rolla. Don taught at the University of Missouri-Columbia, and we met at an annual meeting of the Missouri Academy of Sciences. Don was especially interested in American dialects, and I have always looked with awe at dialecticians who can tell from speaking with people what part of the country they're from. I remember two incidents of Don's ability in this regard. 1) Some twenty-five years ago I attended the linguistics section of the Missouri Academy of Science's annual meeting. There were only five or so of us at the linguistics section, all of us presenting papers, and Don's was the last. He began his paper by saying with his gentle and yet knowing grin that he could tell from the accents of all the preceding speakers what part of the country they're from. Before he could continue I protested impulsively: "I don't talk with an accent!" The reaction was instantaneous and unanimous in the room, almost as if it was scripted: "Like heck you don't!" (I really don't talk with an accent, but people in the Midwest who hear me seem to agree that I speak with a heavy New York accent.) 2) About twenty years ago a woman turned up in Columbia, Missouri with amnesia. She had no idea who she was or where she came from and assumed the name Sarah Gray, with "Gray" supposed to designate what she thought of her drab life. She was brought to the attention of the police, who wanted to locate her family but without putting out a national call for help; the call should be localized. The police were in a quandary about how to locate Ms. Gray's family, when someone drew Don Lance to their attention. Even a person with amnesia doesn't change their speech patterns, and Don was called in to speak with Ms. Gray to determine where she was from. He spoke with her a while and asked her a series of questions (e.g., "greasy" vs. "greazy") and afterwards pretty much zeroed in on where she came from; I think it was a section of the Pittsburgh or Philadelphia area; I just don't remember. Don made a recording of Ms. Gray's speech and sent it to a dialectician in whatever city he suspected she came from, and he soon received a confirming second opinion. Don gave the information to the police, who put out an announcement to the public in Ms. Gray's home base, and sure enough, at least one or two members of her family turned up. The story was remarkable enough to make one of the tabloids; I believe it was the Star. The story, sad to say, didn't have a happy ending; Ms. Gray was a deeply troubled woman and soon afterwards left Columbia. I don't think Don ever received word about her afterwards. I later asked Don to write an article explaining just how he figured out where Sarah Gray came from; what linguistic clues revealed her origin? The Star article hadn't gone into these details, and I offered to publish Don's account in my Comments on Etymology. He politely declined, however, explaining that Sarah Gray had had great hardship in her life, and he didn't want to benefit from that hardship in any way. It was a profoundly ethical decision on Don's part and emblematic of his gentle and kindly nature. I of course accepted the decision, although deep down I really would have liked to have Don's account of how he did it. Gerald Cohen From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 25 02:07:04 2002 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:07:04 -0400 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: No offence to forensic linguists, but I believe NBC/ABC/CBS and other media wouldn't make linguistic judgements without expert advice. Maybe I should have made this more explicit. But the egg definitely is not on the face of Tom Brokaw or his staff. If I may be allowed another moment on what some may consider my hobbyhorse, the moral of this story is _The Native Speaker is Dead!_ It is just a shibboleth. But long live the native speaker. TOM PAIKEDAY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly Flanigan" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > I haven't been home since this morning, so maybe this has already been > discussed by the media, but isn't it likely that what the officials heard > as an "accent" or "broken English" in the "garbled" phone calls was simply > Jamaican Creole? We can speak of a "written accent" too, usually both > cultural and linguistic, which might explain the unfamiliar "Dear Mr. > Policeman," etc. > > At 11:41 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >At 11:04 AM -0400 10/24/02, David Bergdahl wrote: > >>Now that the pair in custody are black males, where does that leave the NBC > >>"expert"? > > > >The stepson, who's Jamaican, apparently wrote some of the letters, > >using what are now (on CNN) described as references to Jamaican > >locutions ("word is bond"). (There were also repetitions of *****, a > >reference to a Jamaican reggae group of that name, I understand.) > >Maybe this struck earlier analysts as Hispanic? As for accent, hard > >to reconcile. Of course, there's the stepfather, John Muhammad (ne > >Williams), US born and bred, a Gulf War vet, as well as the stepson, > >either of whom could have been making the phone calls. We'll know > >more (or at least be told more), I suspect. > > > >L > > > >> > >>--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:56 AM -0400 "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" > >> wrote: > >> > >>>Last night NBC Nightly News reported that it had been determined that the > >>>sniper is a "native speaker" of English, probably a Caucasian, with an > >>>accent suspected to be Hispanic. The above judgement seems to have been > >>>based on the sniper's written rather than spoken English. There is a kind > >>>of verba volant (words fly) quality to the spoken evidence. But a > >>>recording may be available. > >>_________________________________________ > >>"We are all New Yorkers" > >> --Dominique Moisi > From harview at MONTANA.COM Fri Oct 25 03:58:28 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:58:28 -0600 Subject: (and dict coverage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > DO NOT EVER USE the "Oxford American Dictionary" (copyright 1980 or so), and > please, PLEASE do not buy it. It has a telltale red jacket in its > mass-market edition, and a yellow jacket in the trade paperback edition -- > the latter is the very same book, page-for-page, just larger trim size and > type. In fact, it is one book that I would like to see all copies of > destroyed -- that's how awful, and now woefully out-of-date, it truly is. > > For Oxford American dicts, use the ones with the BLUE jackets. AVOID the > old one (check the copyright date) with the red or the yellow jacket -- > that's the bad one. > Help! I have an OAD copyrighted 1980 but with a blue jacket which I have made available to my children in lieu of Dad's "squint-eye" OED (the little rascals seem to have lost the magnifying glass which came with it....). So should I toss it or not? How about reporting a shibboleth entry which would distinguish between the good and the bad?.... From indigo at WELL.COM Fri Oct 25 05:01:38 2002 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:01:38 -0700 Subject: lap and length In-Reply-To: <200210250401.g9P41Zaf005835@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: My email seems to be handling the digests oddly, so I'm not sure if I actually read what everyone said about laps & lengths, but: I also equate length & lap, & use either of them when speaking about how many of them I swim. (Length seems clearer, whereas lap can be an awful lot like the "next weekend" discussion a while back.) What struck me as odd in Casper was the use of "length swimming" as a set phrase where I would use "lap swimming" instead. Like "grocery shopping". -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com Album of the Month: Catherine Irwin, Cut Yourself A Switch (Thrill Jockey, 2002) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 25 07:38:38 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 03:38:38 EDT Subject: Up "Jazz Creek" in Oregon Message-ID: A reply from Oregon. --Barry Popik Subj: Re: "Jazz Creek" naming Date: 10/24/2002 11:28:05 PM Eastern Standard Time From: jkohnen at easystreet.com To: Bapopik at aol.com Hello Barry Popik, Sorry my reply took a while--I was out of town. And I have no answer for you. I tried the standard book, "Oregon Place Names" and the Univ. of Oregon's "Atlas of...", the state "Atlas of ...", plus web sites for Clackamas County's Bull of the Woods Wilderness (the location of Jazz Creek) and Sweet Home (Linn County) where one can find Jazz Creek Reservoir (named for the same creek). You might try a question through email to http://www.sweet-home.or.us/quick_facts.html#Questions or to an Oregon history news list overland-trails at yahoogroups.com Now you've got me curious. It's surprising that there's only 2 "jazz" place names in the US. Wasn't "jazz" a slang word for making love before it was applied to a music form? (like rock and roll). When was "jazz" in use for the first time? I couldn't even find out when jazz creek was named. Many places in Oregon have names that changed, a popular name that was so persistant that it eventually replaced the "official" name, names that are corruptions of Indian or foreign words (like the word "Oregon" or "Silver" Lake rather then "Silvetry's" Lake), or an English replacement for a like-sounding word (like Willamette for the Wil-lamt). Your question is more complicated than it looks. Good luck, Patricia Kohnen From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 10:13:20 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 06:13:20 -0400 Subject: Donald Lance remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gerald Cohen posted a truly wonderful story about Don Lance. Many thanks for that. With the passing of greats like Lance and Read, not to mention Cassidy and Guralnik recently, it is a solace that we can share remembrances of what made these lexicographical giants so remarkable, and that we will still have their published work to rely on for guidance. Don Lance edited the 12th edition of Kenyon's _American Pronunciation_, to which he also added a section titled "Spectrographic Analysis of English Phonemes and Allophones". This is a monument to Don's work, and not the only one. The book was published in 1997 by George Wahr Publishing of Ann Arbor. Those who are interested in this area of linguistics and do not have it, or at least access to it, should try to get a copy. It seems it is no longer in print, but amazon shows several used copies out there. We shall miss Don Lance a lot. Frank Abate From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Oct 24 21:19:23 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:19:23 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for "realtor". Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: James A. Landau To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular > P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed > "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days living > in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop is > Judishooairy Square". > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:19:06 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:19:06 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <000301c27c27$e0dace40$78d513d0@rjiredff> Message-ID: Nope, your respelling makes this look like "transposition" (which implies "metathesis" to us speakers of the arcane tongue), but that is not the motivation here at all. What you want to note is simply insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" example as well (where k+l is the villain). dInIs >Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for "realtor". > >Bob >----- Original Message ----- >From: James A. Landau >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM >Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular > >> P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed >> "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days >living >> in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station stop >is >> Judishooairy Square". >> -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 25 13:34:30 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What you want to note is simply >insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >example as well (where k+l is the villain). And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also show this trend? I see a few cases of "trocular" (= "trochlear") and "cocular" (= "cochlear") on the Web. -- Doug Wilson From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:34:50 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I heard last night that Dr. Moose was born in Lexington, KY, and then moved around. I don't know if that means his parents are native to Kentucky or not. Lesa Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:57 PM -0400 10/23/02, Duane Campbell wrote: > >According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > >imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > >sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > >in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > >sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > >Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > >linguist? > > Actually, there's a forensic linguistics list that some of us > cross-subscribe to, and these questions have been discussed, with the > overall sense that (based on past experience) it would be hasty to > conclude anything about the actual nationality or native-speaker > status of the sniper based on (what we've read about) his (the > consensus is "his") messages. (The motivating factor for suspecting > non-native-status was the salutation "Dear Mr. Policeman" or whatever > it was.) > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > >dialects that include this shift? > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > where he was from before that.) > > Larry From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:45:35 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:45:35 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: Should we blame the inflected rats with all our verb troubles, do you think? "THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > distinction? > > Incidentally, I'd like to know what forensic linguists think of specimens > (freshman English, of course) such as the following. I did get an expert > opinion in 1985. But I would like a second opinion if anyone would care to > comment, even for fun. The basic syntax seems perfect. > > "During the Middle Ages everybody was middle > aged.... After a revival of infantile commerce slowly creeped into > Europe, merchants appeared. They roamed from town to town expo- > sing themselves and organized big fairies in the countryside.... Finally > Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by > inflected rats.... Theologically, Luther was into reorientation muta- > tion.... Great Brittian, the USA and other European countrys had > demicratic leanings. Among the goals of the chartists were universal > suferage and an anal parliament.... In 1937 Lenin revolted Russia. > Germany was displaced after WWL... War screeched to an end when a > nukuleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. The last stage is us." > (Britannica 1984 Book of the Year) > > T. M. Paikeday > www.paikeday.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lesa Dill" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:23 PM > Subject: Re: Non native speaker? > > > The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on > the > > Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether > the > > person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say > native. I > > agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > > children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think > it's > > easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or > non-native. > > > > Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African > American > > English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > > latter. > > > > Lesa > > > > Duane Campbell wrote: > > > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time > or > > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > > linguist? > > > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. > Moose) > > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > D > > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:47:09 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: I'm hoping that with the conclusion of the hunt for the sniper the full text of all the notes will be printed. That should make for some interesting speculations. Lesa Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Chief Moose also has /v/ for voiced (th) medially, not just finally--as in > 'other' and 'brother'. But haven't we diverged from the question about > the sniper? Is the entire threatening letter available somewhere? I > thought not, but if it is, it's quite easy to detect non-native English, in > both oral and written productions. This is indeed something forensic > linguists should be able to do. At least those of us in SLA can usually do > this, and there are plenty such experts in the DC area. > > At 01:22 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I've heard this phonology from other educated, middle or upper middle class > >African Americans from Eastern Virginia. One of them was an IBM sales rep > >serving the Ball State account several years ago whose English was clearly > >Tidewater but had D initially and f/v finally. Could it be a Tidewater > >variant? > > > >Herb Stahlke > > > > > > > > > >While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > > >replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > >I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > >including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > >white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > >impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > >dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > > [d] and [t] for /dh/ and /th/ are standard non-standard dialectal > > > variants in certain northeast urban areas (NYC--where it's a > > > shibboleth for "Brooklynese": dese, dem, dose, Boston, etc.), New > > > Orleans, U.P. of Michigan, and other areas with foreign substratum. > > > I haven't been paying attention to Chief Moose's fricatives, so I'm > > > not either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment on that. (I > > > know he was formerly police chief in Portland, OR, but I don't know > > > where he was from before that.) > > > > > > Larry > > > From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Fri Oct 25 13:49:58 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:49:58 -0500 Subject: Non native speaker? Message-ID: PCness only concerns me when I'm in the classroom. It seems no matter how I explain and approach the subject and no matter which term I use, some of my students become resentful and squirm. I too prefer BEV. Do anyone else encounter this defensiveness? Lesa Beverly Flanigan wrote: > What do you mean by "the latter"? AAVE is the general usage now, but > there's nothing wrong with Black English or Ebonics either. We're not into > PCness. Personally, I favor BEV, for obvious reasons. > > At 01:23 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >The debate about the identity of the sniper is being debated currently on the > >Forensic Linguistics listserv. There's quite an argument about whether the > >person is native or non-native. I'd have to agree with you and say native. I > >agree with your comments about the phrasing of the statement about our > >children being in danger. It is stylistically well formed. I also think it's > >easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, illiterate and/or non-native. > > > >Isn't the sound subsitution regular in Black English/Ebonics/African American > >English? What's PC in linguistics for that these days? Certainly not the > >latter. > > > >Lesa > > > >Duane Campbell wrote: > > > > > According to published reports, the notes left by the sniper are in an > > > imperfect English indicating perhaps a non-native speaker. Yet the one > > > sentence they have released -- "Your children are not safe at any time or > > > in any place." (from memory) -- strikes me as a very well crafted > > > sentence. Not just lucid and free from error, but stylish. > > > > > > Any forensic linguists on the list? Is there such a thing as a forensic > > > linguist? > > > > > > While I'm asking questions, Chief Moose (who is, incidentally, Dr. Moose) > > > replaces all of his "th" sounds with either a hard "D" (initial) or "F". > > > I have heard this from time to time, though usually not so pronounced, > > > including a classmate in 1950s rural Pennsylvania with a 100 percent > > > white school population. I had always assumed it was a minor speech > > > impediment (is there a new PC word for this?) or an ideomorph. Are there > > > dialects that include this shift? > > > > > > D From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 14:07:28 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:07:28 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Yep. They all do. The truth is, real human languages hate two consonants in a row, and only really shameful ones allow more. You could even argue that honest, upright human languages don't even like coda consonants, since their effect is to produce "clusters" across word boundaries. (Check the spelling and pronunciation of that last word!) dInIs >>What you want to note is simply >>insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >>transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >>more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >>example as well (where k+l is the villain). > >And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also >show this trend? > >I see a few cases of "trocular" (= "trochlear") and "cocular" (= >"cochlear") on the Web. > >-- Doug Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Oct 25 14:17:47 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:17:47 -0400 Subject: Easy to sound like... Message-ID: THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY" wrote: > I agree with Lesa Dill "it's easy, intentionally or not, to sound garbled, > illiterate and/or non-native." So what's the use of the native/non-native > distinction? I completely agree and disagree. I agree. Lots of nonlinguists have folk speech routines which allow them to easily imitate "garbled, illiterate and/or non-native" speech. But this is true only if we judge their success on the basis of their own assessment of their performance and that of (some) nonlinguist others. (Perhaps that is suggested by "sound" in this earlier posting.) I disagree. "Illiterate" speech (I assume nonstandard varieties) and non-native speech (or "interlanguages," following the SLA tradition) are coherent, fully-fledged, difficult-to-master human language systems. One may say "espeak" for "speak" and have people "recognize" the Spanish influence or say "I goes" and have people think one is "speaking" African American English, but such folk imitations (interesting objects of study themselves, by the way) are not full representations of the systems (native and non-native) involved here at all, and are often simply inaccurate. I have nothing to say about folk speakers imitations of "garbled speech," but I am delighted to find a message which I can be 100% for and against. dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 25 14:23:08 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:23:08 -0400 Subject: the Big 5. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Frank Abate wrote: > Any of the Big 4 "college" dicts (Web New World, Random House, > Merriam-Webster, or Amer Heritage) do nicely for pron help. Though they > differ on usage and other such advice (and some other things, too), they > generally get the basic facts right most of the time. Another good choice > for prons (and other things) is the New Oxford American Dictionary, or its > abridged descendant, the just-published Oxford American College Dictionary. > Like the Big 4, the new Oxford American dicts were edited in the USA by > American lexos. And the NEW Oxford American dicts are up-to-date, having > just been completed in the past 2 years. You're too modest, Frank. Around here, we speak of the Big 5 "college" dicts, with the OACD among them. Steve Kleinedler (Senior Editor, AHD) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 25 15:06:25 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:06:25 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:34 AM -0400 10/25/02, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>What you want to note is simply >>insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant >>transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly >>more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" >>example as well (where k+l is the villain). > >And I suppose "athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry") also >show this trend? > Don't forget "jewelery" larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 25 15:03:59 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:03:59 -0400 Subject: soccer usages In-Reply-To: <6f.2fcd3e50.2ae97c74@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0400 10/24/02, Fritz Juengling wrote: >Of course not. A goal is something that you are trying to attain. You don't >guard your own goal. Your goalie stands in front of the other team's goal. >same priciple as in basketball. The other team has a basket, or goal, and >you try to keep them from scoring into it, i.e. their basket or goal. >Fritz > Not to pile on here, but the phrase "an own goal" (in soccer) seems to confirm that the goal your keeper/goalie is guarding is indeed your own goal, not the other team's. (The phrase relates to what happens when a player inadvertently--at least one assumes it was inadvertently--knocks the ball into his own goal, scoring for the other team. This happens in basketball too, but there's no specific term for it. In hockey it happens more frequently, but I'm not sure whether "own goal" applies. My understanding is the same as most of the other commentators here: in each sport, you defend your own goal. One more piece of indirect evidence: in basketball, there's of course no goalie or keeper, but there is "goal-tending", in particular normal ("defensive") goaltending, when an opposing player's shot is blocked on the way down or swatted against the backboard, the referee calls goaltending, and the shot is allowed as if it had gone in (there are subtle rules on when it counts as goaltending and when it counts as a legitimate block). In such cases, the defender is overzealously "tending" his own goal. There is a much more rarely called "offensive goaltending" violation in which a player tries to tap in or rebound a ball in the abstract "cone" above the opposing basket, but this is clearly derivative and marked. Larry From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 15:11:40 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:11:40 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry")... Let us not forget the malady from which my late mother-in-law suffered, the often quite painful "arthuritis." --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Oct 25 15:11:39 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:11:39 -0400 Subject: Realty/realtor Message-ID: Bob Fitzke writes, >> Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for >> "realtor". The goof I see and hear in this area is the confusion of *realty* with "reality." Our co-op corporation includes the former word, often rendered by various contractors and service providers as the latter. --Dodi Schultz From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 16:20:34 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:20:34 -0400 Subject: FW: Don Lance Message-ID: Here's another tribute to Don, this from the man who is "Mr. Placenames" in the US. Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: Roger L Payne [mailto:rpayne at usgs.gov] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:07 PM To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Don Lance I have known and admired Don Lance for almost 20 years. He was a man of obvious intellect with a deliberate yet tempered approach to everything. I am sure that most know of his accomplishments in linguistics and dialectology, and perhaps in scholarly aspects of toponymy, but Don's untiring efforts were apparent in the realm of applied toponymy as well. Don's interest in applied toponymy greatly benefited the nation and the people of Missouri because Don was instrumental, if not totally, responsible for coordinating and assuring that the extensive compilation of geographic names for Missouri was accomplished in support of the National Geographic Names Data Compilation Program. He was also responsible for establishing and coordinating the Missouri State Board on Geographic Names, which speaks on behalf of the State in matters of toponymy, and has accomplished much under Don's leadership. Don orchestrated all of this from "behind the scenes" in many cases, allowing others to participate fully. In 2000, Don hosted the annual meeting of the Council of Geographic Names Authorities as another demonstration of his untiring dedication. I shall miss him as a friend and a colleague, and the wide community of the study of all aspects of language will miss him. Roger L. Payne Executive Secretary, U.S. Board on Geographic Names From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 25 16:59:26 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:59:26 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't quite follow this. The motivation may be to break up a consonant cluster (as other posted examples indicate), but the result in this particular case is a metathesis. I.e., it isn't *[rilt at r] > [ril at t@r] but [ri at lt@r] > [ril at t@r]. PMc --On Friday, October 25, 2002 9:19 AM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Nope, your respelling makes this look like "transposition" (which > implies "metathesis" to us speakers of the arcane tongue), but that > is not the motivation here at all. What you want to note is simply > insertion (of a schwa) to break up the clumsy consonant-to-consonant > transition (or "cluster") of l+t. IN fact, although it is slightly > more complex, that is, after all, whjat is going on in the "nuclear" > example as well (where k+l is the villain). > > dInIs > > > >> Another common transposition I frequently hear is "relator" for >> "realtor". >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James A. Landau >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 AM >> Subject: Re: nuclear/nucular >> >>> P.S. On a possibly-related phonetic subject: has anyone else noticed >>> "judiciary" being pronounced as /joo 'dish oo eir ee/? From my days >> living >>> in DC I remember hearing on the Metro PA speakers "the next station >>> stop >> is >>> Judishooairy Square". >>> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Professor of Linguistics > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, > Asian & African Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 > e-mail: preston at msu.edu > phone: (517) 353-9290 **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Oct 25 17:03:40 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:03:40 -0700 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: A question for the list. When referring to the seasons: 1) Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) spring/summer/fall/winter"? 2) Does your usage vary according to the season you are referring to (e.g., "in the spring" but "in winter," etc.)? Or 3) Are "the" and 0 in free variation in this construction? I'm talking just about the simple prepositional phrase, not about extensions such as "in the spring of '96." Thanks for any "imput." Peter Mc. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Fri Oct 25 18:23:06 2002 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:23:06 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Dodi: > Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: > > >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= "masonry")... > > Let us not forget the malady from which my late mother-in-law suffered, the > often quite painful "arthuritis." There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" Anne G --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release Date: 10/21/2002 From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 25 19:51:47 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:51:47 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <002301c27c53$96d20030$cfbb9a40@annebiokqmgika> Message-ID: Not mention, Ac at me for the food store Acme markets. Ed --- Anne Gilbert wrote: > Dodi: > > > Doug Wilson notes the occurrence of: > > > > >> ..."athaletic", "parapalegic", "masonary" (= > "masonry")... > > > > Let us not forget the malady from which my late > mother-in-law suffered, > the > > often quite painful "arthuritis." > > There are also "jewelery", "libary", and > "choresteral" > Anne G > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.406 / Virus Database: 229 - Release > Date: 10/21/2002 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 25 20:19:56 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:19:56 -0700 Subject: culinary/recipe sources Message-ID: a friend just pointed me to Chef Louis Szathmary's collection of recipe booklets: http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Louis/chefpam-a-j.html (just in case barry and the other food vocabulary folks didn't already know about this). arnold From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Fri Oct 25 20:34:03 2002 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:34:03 -0400 Subject: soccer usages Message-ID: Aren't you blurring the distinction between the location where scoring takes place, i.e, the "goal" and the name of the score, itself, i.e., "goal"? ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:03 AM Subject: Re: soccer usages > Not to pile on here, but the phrase "an own goal" (in soccer) seems > to confirm that the goal your keeper/goalie is guarding is indeed > your own goal, not the other team's. (The phrase relates to what > happens when a player inadvertently--at least one assumes it was > inadvertently--knocks the ball into his own goal, scoring for the > other team. This happens in basketball too, but there's no specific > term for it. In hockey it happens more frequently, but I'm not sure > whether "own goal" applies. My understanding is the same as most of > the other commentators here: in each sport, you defend your own goal. > > One more piece of indirect evidence: in basketball, there's of > course no goalie or keeper, but there is "goal-tending", in > particular normal ("defensive") goaltending, when an opposing > player's shot is blocked on the way down or swatted against the > backboard, the referee calls goaltending, and the shot is allowed as > if it had gone in (there are subtle rules on when it counts as > goaltending and when it counts as a legitimate block). In such > cases, the defender is overzealously "tending" his own goal. There > is a much more rarely called "offensive goaltending" violation in > which a player tries to tap in or rebound a ball in the abstract > "cone" above the opposing basket, but this is clearly derivative and > marked. > > Larry > From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 25 22:12:47 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:12:47 -0700 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025092357.04a6ac30@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: My favorite was told to me by Chuck Fillmore. He was talking to a young man who, obviously having been corrected on NOO ky@ l at r, told Chuck about his new pair of b@ NOK lee @rz. Rima From gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU Fri Oct 25 22:20:48 2002 From: gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:20:48 -0700 Subject: ANS Hotel in New York (MLA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have made local arrangements for ANS during MLA, and the hotel we're at wants to sell more beds, and so is offering a good deal. They would like us to TELL ALL FRIENDS AND ENEMIES ABOUT THE GOOD DEAL AT THE MILLENNIUM HOTEL. There is no limit on the number of rooms available. The Millennium has excellent location. At four stars, it's a step up in grade from most MLA hotels. And at $105 single OR double, it's the best deal in town. If you know people going to New York for Dec. 25-30, they are welcome too. Just call the Millennium, and say you're with the "American Name Society." Here are the details: Millennium on Broadway 145 West 44th Street New York, NY 10036 Phone: 212-768-4400 1-800-622-5569 Fax: 212-768-0847 Steps from Times Square. Featuring 752 finely appointed guest rooms, available in three types: Millennium Classic, Millennium Club, and Millennium Premier. Includes conference center, theater, restaurant, business center, fitness center, and room service. -- Grant W. Smith, Immediate Past President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Vice Pres., Intl. Council Onomastic Sciences Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 250 Patterson Hall Cheney, WA 99004-2430 www.class.ewu.edu/class/engl/gsmith/home.html From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Oct 26 00:29:20 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:29:20 -0500 Subject: culinary/recipe sources In-Reply-To: <200210252019.g9PKJuI19518@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >a friend just pointed me to Chef Louis Szathmary's collection >of recipe booklets: > http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Louis/chefpam-a-j.html > >(just in case barry and the other food vocabulary folks didn't >already know about this). > >arnold There is also a collection of Chef Szathmary's books at the University of Chicago--I helped with the catalog searches. It's in Special Collections. Barbara From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Oct 26 02:34:43 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:34:43 -0400 Subject: Don Lance Message-ID: Colleagues, Visitation for Don Lance will be tomorrow (Saturday, October 26), beginning at 12:30 at the Memorial Funeral Home located at 1217 Business Loop 70 W in Columbia, Missouri with the service scheduled for 2:00 PM. ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 04:14:18 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:14:18 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: Peter McGraw asks, >> Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) >> spring/summer/fall/winter"? Sometimes. Sound and sentence rhythm are the guidelines. Either construction is correct. >> Does your usage vary according to the season you are referring to >> (e.g., "in the spring" but "in winter," etc.)? Now that I think about it: Maybe! No consistency but, yes, perhaps "the" used more with single-syllable seasons (spring, fall) than with summer, autumn, winter. --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 04:14:20 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:14:20 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular Message-ID: Anne Gilbert observes that, >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, "choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for "l," "a" for "o"). --Dodi Schultz From harview at MONTANA.COM Sat Oct 26 04:30:57 2002 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:30:57 -0600 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: <408280.1035540220@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > A question for the list. > > When referring to the seasons: > > 1) Do you use the article in the construction: "in (the) > spring/summer/fall/winter"? > Interesting. "The" seems pretty strongly-bound with spring and fall. To say just 'in spring' sounds strange to me. I want to say either 'in the spring' or 'in springtime'. 'In the fall' is almost obligatory; there is no 'falltime'. 'In summer' seems slightly more possible but still somewhat awkward without the 'the'. However, 'in winter' sounds perfectly correct to my ear. Might it be due to the [perceived] lengths of these seasons? It is very natural to say 'over the course of a winter', somewhat less so to use that phrase with a summer, and completely out of the question to use it with spring or fall. I am reporting with a frostbitten ear attuned to 40-plus years of living in the far northern reaches of Montana..... Scott Swanson Pendroy, Montana From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Oct 26 04:25:26 2002 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:25:26 -0700 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: <408280.1035540220@[10.218.201.115]> Message-ID: After thinking about what I say for a bit, it seems I use "the" when it's something limited and specific. " I'm going to France in the spring." "I'll be attending college in the fall." When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. " In spring a young man's fancy... " "It snows a lot in winter." Rima From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sat Oct 26 10:24:38 2002 From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 06:24:38 -0400 Subject: Job Announcement Message-ID: The Department of English, Foreign Language, & Philosophy at Morehead State University is seeking applications for a tenure-track position as Assistant Professor of English beginning August 2003. Responsibilities: Teach upper- division and graduate English language and linguistics courses, composition, general education linguistics, and occasional DL course assignments. Qualifications: Completion of requirements for the Ph.D. in linguistics or in English language and linguistics by May 2003; evidence of strong teaching ability; evidence of scholarly productivity or potential; commitment to teaching, research, and service. Background in syntax, psycho-linguistics, and/or language acquisition preferred. Review of applications will begin December 15, 2002 and will continue until position is filled. To apply submit letter of application, C.V., three letters of recommendation, transcripts, and a writing sample by December 2, 2002 to: Office of Human Resources, Attn: Linguistics #858, Morehead State University, HM 101, Morehead, KY 40351. To apply on-line, visit: http://www.moreheadstate.edu/prospects/jobapp.html and attach the required application materials. MSU is EO/AA employer. ************************** Terry Lynn Irons From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Oct 26 13:40:39 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:40:39 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <200210260014_MC3-1-1768-9EB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: >Please, let's keep sounds and letters apart. First, "libary" has two motivations: 1) To avoid the repetition of similar (usually marked) sounds (as US English /r/ is). "Library" with one /r/ is a happier word. This is often cited as "dissimilation." 2) In "library" the /b/ and /r/ form a cluster of consonants. As noted in earlier postings, civilized languages hate clusters (onset clusters less than final, but, they are still dispreferred). Therefore, "library" does fit, to a certain extent, our earlier posting. In other words, you can get rid of a cluster by inserting a /@/ (or other "default" vowel of the language) between the two consonants or you can simply waste one of them. Second, "chorestoral." 1) The "a" for "o" in the spelling may signify nothing about the pronunciation. Since I am an open-o ~ /a/ distinguisher, I, of course, chuckle when people end the final syllable in /al/ (especially when it is Northern Cities Shifted /a/, which nears my /?/). But we're into consonants in this thread. 2) The /r/ for /l/ substitution has two possible sources: a) For younger speakers, for speakers from non /r/~/l/ dsitinguishing languages, and (related to the next), and from speech error, these "unstable" sounds, very close to one another in articulatory production, may simply be switched (or "neither" realized, causing the hearer to hear first one and then the other). Note that, according to their experience, many US English speakers say "Asian speakers can't say their /r/s," but another hearer group just as strongly asserts they can't say their /l/s. For many such speakers, both groups are right. b) Long-range Regressive Assimilation is the grown-up term for what might could happen to make the /r/ for /l/ here a permanent, native-speaker, non- speech-error practice. The /r/ being present as the onset only one syllable in the "future" in the articualtion of this word causes the speaker to "preprepare" for it and deliver it "early." This is related to the "error" offered in a) above since this may be a source of speech error, but, of course, assimilation happens over longer historical periods to establish new phonemic patterns in words. dInIs >Anne Gilbert observes that, > > >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" > >Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. > >I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been >discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or >syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, >"choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for >"l," "a" for "o"). > >--Dodi Schultz -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Oct 26 13:42:53 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:42:53 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect region! I can't say "It snows a lot in winter." Too bad we don't know more about the regional-social distribution of article use (except for the well-known Transatlantic stuff like "in hospital," etc...). dInIs >After thinking about what I say for a bit, it seems I use "the" when >it's something limited and specific. " I'm going to France in the >spring." "I'll be attending college in the fall." When it's ongoing >and general, I don't use the definite article. " In spring a young >man's fancy... " "It snows a lot in winter." > >Rima -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 26 19:42:52 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:42:52 -0400 Subject: In (the?) season x Message-ID: Rima McKinzey, citing Tennyson, says, >> When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. "In >> spring a young man's fancy..." What the poet, attuned to the rhythm of the line, actually wrote was: "In the spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love." (Locksley Hall, 1842) --Dodi Schultz From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 26 20:05:33 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:05:33 -0400 Subject: nuclear/nucular In-Reply-To: <200210260014_MC3-1-1768-9EB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: >Anne Gilbert observes that, > > >> There are also "jewelery", "libary", and "choresteral" > >Someone else mentioned the first one, I believe. Yup, me. LH > >I don't think the last two fit the particular pattern we've been >discussing--i.e., the insertion of a "@" sound between letters or >syllables. "Libary" (like "Febuary") is the omission of a consonant, >"choresteral" the substitution of two letters for the correct ones ("r" for >"l," "a" for "o"). > >--Dodi Schultz From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Oct 26 23:57:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:57:24 -0400 Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) Message-ID: LOBSTER NEWBURG (continued) From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 17 April 1899, pg. 6, col. 5: "Years ago," says Colonel Henry Watterson, "when I belonged to a coterie of gay young cavaliers in New-York City, I designed the dish now generally known as lobster a la Newburg. I gave my idea to "Charlie" Delmonico, and he saw that it was carried to successful execution. John McCullough was one of us, and to John is due the appearance of broiled live lobster in the East. He had caught on to that epicurean way of preparing it during his stay in California. In after years I attained some fame as a manipulator of certain dishes, terrapin perhaps being my masterpiece. Curiously enough, all the newspaper stories have given me credit for being an artist in the preparation of oyster stews, but my experience with the bivalves is limited. I always left them to John Chamberlain, while he would not allow any one but myself to attend to the diamond backs. I can't begin to tell you how much of this ingredient or the exact quantity of the other to put with the terrapin, but I know how to blend them all in an instinctive sort of way, and I've never yet found the man who didn't admit that my cooking was of the highest order." (Henry Watterson was the editor of the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL. I've mentioned him before in connection with "Windy City" and "Gin Rickey." I was not familiar with his culinary abilities--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- BEEFSTEAK JOHNS; NO NEW YORK CHINESE RESTAURANTS From the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 4 August 1895, pg. 19, col. 5: _STRANGE RESTUARANTS._ _BROOKLYN HAS MANY PECULIAR EATING HOUSES._ _Some of These Are Not Calculated to_ _Put a Fine Edge on Fastidious Appe-_ _tites--Italian, Hebrew, Swedish and_ _German Tastes Appealed To._ (...)(Col. 6--ed.) Scattered all over the city there are a large number of restaurants commonly known as "Beefsteak Johns." In these places a regular dinner is sold for 15 or 20 cents and single dishes, like roast beef with potato, for 8 and 10 cents, according to the piece. The regular dinner consists of a bowl of soup, a cut of roast beef, lamb, veal or corned beef and cabbage, a cup of tea or coffee and for dessert pie or pudding. Places of this kind are to be found on Myrtle avenue, upper nad lower Fulton street, lower Atlantic avenue, and in the neighborhood of all the ferries, car stables and the large factories. (...) There are no Chinese restaurants in the city, although there was one started at 97 Broadway about two years ago. It was run on the same style as those on Mott and Pell streets in New York. The place was closed very soon after opening, as it did not attract enough customers to make it pay. (No Chinese restaurants in New York in 1895? See "Chinese Restaurants in New York," LESLIE'S ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY, 9 January 1896, pg. 28--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- FOOD MISC. Gersh Kuntzman's "Metro Gnome," to appear in Monday's NEW YORK POST, is about the "fried twinkie." MADE ME LAUGH: From THE ONION, 24-30 October 2002: _Motorist Overwhelmed By_ _Array Of Jerky Choices_ --------------------------------------------------------------- O.T.: WINDY CITY (or, YOU correct the TIMES OF LONDON) Sport Ascot less Royal as parade takes a day off Cornelius Lysaght 10/25/2002 The Times of London News International Final 4 43 (Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2002) (...) CHICAGO'S Windy City nickname, a reference to the changeable nature of the hot air spouted by local worthies rather than the lakeside weather, has rarely been so apt. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 00:32:58 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 20:32:58 -0400 Subject: Lobster a la Newburg (NYT, 1894) Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 12 August 1894, pg. 13: _BLOCK ISLAND BLUEFISHING_ (...) The island is a favorite resort of Henry Watterson... (...) The tradition is that Sam Ward and Ben Werneberg conjointly invented that delicious preparation, "lobster a la Newburg," one day at Delmonico's, in a fit of desperation in thinking how to cook lobster in some other form than that incepted. The truth is that Sam Ward invented the dish here, in one of his numerous and characteristic experiments in gastronomy. Returning to New-York, he divulged the secret ot the genial epicure, the late Ben Wernberg, who thereafter called for it so often at Delmonico's in Broad Street, that the dish became popular on the menu as "lobster a la Wernberg." It is well known that shortly after, in consequence of some misunderstanding about a stock transaction between Ben and the late Charley Delmonico, the name was changed to the now universally-popular "lobster a la Newburg," because of the similarity of the name. It is customary for touring Englishmen to believe that, because of this nomenclature of the delightful dish, all lobsters come from Newburg. From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Sun Oct 27 00:38:43 2002 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:38:43 -0700 Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) Message-ID: No Chinese restaurants in the city? The city was Brooklyn, not NYC. The quote was from the Brooklyn Eagle for whom the "city" was Brooklyn. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: Lobster Newburg (1899); Beefsteak Johns & No NY Chinese Restaurants (1895) > LOBSTER NEWBURG (continued) > > From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 17 April 1899, pg. 6, col. 5: > > "Years ago," says Colonel Henry Watterson, "when I belonged to a coterie of gay young cavaliers in New-York City, I designed the dish now generally known as lobster a la Newburg. I gave my idea to "Charlie" Delmonico, and he saw that it was carried to successful execution. John McCullough was one of us, and to John is due the appearance of broiled live lobster in the East. He had caught on to that epicurean way of preparing it during his stay in California. In after years I attained some fame as a manipulator of certain dishes, terrapin perhaps being my masterpiece. Curiously enough, all the newspaper stories have given me credit for being an artist in the preparation of oyster stews, but my experience with the bivalves is limited. I always left them to John Chamberlain, while he would not allow any one but myself to attend to the diamond backs. I can't begin to tell you how much of this ingredient or the exact quantity of the other to put with the terrapin, but I know how to blend them all in an instinctive sort of way, and I've never yet found the man who didn't admit that my cooking was of the highest order." > > (Henry Watterson was the editor of the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL. I've mentioned him before in connection with "Windy City" and "Gin Rickey." I was not familiar with his culinary abilities--ed.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > BEEFSTEAK JOHNS; NO NEW YORK CHINESE RESTAURANTS > > From the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 4 August 1895, pg. 19, col. 5: > > _STRANGE RESTUARANTS._ > _BROOKLYN HAS MANY PECULIAR EATING HOUSES._ > _Some of These Are Not Calculated to_ > _Put a Fine Edge on Fastidious Appe-_ > _tites--Italian, Hebrew, Swedish and_ > _German Tastes Appealed To._ > (...)(Col. 6--ed.) > Scattered all over the city there are a large number of restaurants commonly known as "Beefsteak Johns." In these places a regular dinner is sold for 15 or 20 cents and single dishes, like roast beef with potato, for 8 and 10 cents, according to the piece. The regular dinner consists of a bowl of soup, a cut of roast beef, lamb, veal or corned beef and cabbage, a cup of tea or coffee and for dessert pie or pudding. Places of this kind are to be found on Myrtle avenue, upper nad lower Fulton street, lower Atlantic avenue, and in the neighborhood of all the ferries, car stables and the large factories. > (...) > There are no Chinese restaurants in the city, although there was one started at 97 Broadway about two years ago. It was run on the same style as those on Mott and Pell streets in New York. The place was closed very soon after opening, as it did not attract enough customers to make it pay. > > (No Chinese restaurants in New York in 1895? See "Chinese Restaurants in New York," LESLIE'S ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY, 9 January 1896, pg. 28--ed.) > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > FOOD MISC. > > Gersh Kuntzman's "Metro Gnome," to appear in Monday's NEW YORK POST, is about the "fried twinkie." > MADE ME LAUGH: From THE ONION, 24-30 October 2002: > > _Motorist Overwhelmed By_ > _Array Of Jerky Choices_ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > O.T.: WINDY CITY (or, YOU correct the TIMES OF LONDON) > > Sport > Ascot less Royal as parade takes a day off > Cornelius Lysaght > 10/25/2002 > The Times of London > News International > Final 4 > 43 > (Copyright Times Newspapers Ltd, 2002) > (...) > CHICAGO'S Windy City nickname, a reference to the changeable nature of the hot air spouted by local worthies rather than the lakeside weather, has rarely been so apt. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 17:59:24 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:59:24 EST Subject: Manhattan's Newest Tables (DEPARTURES, Nov/Dec 2002) Message-ID: Yes, I forgot that I was in the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE of 1895. New York City joined together in 1898. I don't know what hour this is, so years also confuse me.."Beefsteak John" is not in the RHHDAS or in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK. The earliest citation in the NEW YORK TIMES is 1884, and it wasn't then a generic. There was a fire at Beefsteak John's, 241 Bowery. I leave for a post-sniper trip to Washington, DC (Library of Congress) in about 24 hours. The F.Y.I. in the City section of today's NEW YORK TIMES mentions our Fred Shapiro. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DEPARTURES magazine is published by American Express and comes "free" with the cost of my card. This November/December 2002 issue has an article about Vermont by playwright David Mamet, a blurb by and a nice photo of NEW YORK TIMES food writer Amanda Hesser, a NYC restaurant article by Mimi Sheraton that I'll get to in detail. DEPARTURES really is a kick. It breathes money. Vera Wang and Christina Ong and other big and trendy names and stories are tossed about. There are ads for expensive watches, cars, cruises. It's like 9/11 never happened. Everyone here has money, but no one looks old. No security issues are discussed in detail in any story. Everyone jet-sets around the world and opens hotels in Bali (as did Ong) like nothing's changed. You'd never know that New York City is bankrupt. The magazine is written as if Jackie Kennedy is still alive--how many readers IS that? I read it for all the food and wine I'll never eat. I've made $1,000 the past 25 years of tireless work, fer cryin' out loud. Pg. 52: _Kiwi Superyachts_. (The article also calls them "uber-yachts"--ed.) Pg. 72: ...tea-flavored chocolate candy--Sadaharu puts _matcha_, the powdered green-tea leaf used in Japanese tea ceremonies, into delicate mille-feuilles and odd-looking but delicious green-glazed eclairs. (Photo of "Green-tea mille-feuilles"--ed.) Pg. 213, col. 3 (Cuyo, Argentina): Indeed, in such imaginatively executed dishes as _cordero de Tupungato_ (succulent stewed lamb), _lomo del Albanil_ ("bricklayer's beef"), and _chivito de Bariloche_ (kid goat), there's a sense of the provincial boy proudly bringing the flavors of the outback to his sophisticated pals in the city. Pp. 214-216: ...a platter of _queso y membrillo_ ((an end-of-meal treat of cheese with quince paste)... Pg. 165: _THE EPICUREAN_ _Manhattan's Newest Tables_ _Through a difficult year, the city has more than persevered--it has thrived._ _Mimi Sheraton takes a measure of the recovery in a crop of new restaurants._ (More than persevered? THRIVED? Huge commercial property tax increases will be announced in two months. The 1999 internet boom is over. What planet is this magazine on?--ed.) Pg. 166 (At Flamma Osteria): Skip the unimpressive, overly herbed antipasti in favor of a shared pasta, such as _spaghetti chittarra_ (cut on a guitarlike rack) with tomatoes and basil; _garganelli_, the Emiliana quill shapes, with prosciutto and truffle butter; or Bolognese _stracci_, ribbons of spinach pasta tossed with braised rabbit, cream, and Parmesan. Then move on to grilled Mediterranean _daurade_ with borlotti beans... (Pg. 168--ed.) Elizabeth Katz's best desserts are fresh-fruit sorbets, crisp ricotta beignets called _crocchette_, and her chocolate-hazelnut _torta_. Pg. 168 (At Il Gasttopardo's): If not those, then order one of the pastas, like the spaghetti chitarra with a sauce of fresh tomatoes, the _paccheri_ (rigatoni) with a meaty Genovese sauce sweetned with simmered onions, or the _orecchiette_ ("little ears") with tomato and minced shellfish. Pg. 170 (At Kai): Chef Hitoshi Kagawa offers Japanese _kaiseki_ (a table d'hote menu, but really meaning a gathering of friends)... Pg. 170 (At Da Silvano Cantinetta): The owner, Silvano Marchetto, makes sure that the simple Tuscan fare is perfectly rendered in standout dishes such as the chickpea appetizer fired with black pepper, the bread-and-tomato salad _panzanella_, and every pasta, in particular the meat-sauced _penne strascicate_. The Livornese fish stew _cacciucco_ is convincing despite an overly dense tomato broth... Pg. 172 (At Noche): ...skewered-meat _anticuchos_... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 20:36:45 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:36:45 -0500 Subject: Donald Lance Obituary Message-ID: This web address for Donald Lance information was given just now on the ANS-L list. I knew him a little bit. (I did "Show Me" and he did "Missouri"--perhaps Gerald Cohen can edit a book? Lance encouraged me to visit the Rio Grande Valley for the "fajita.") Here is an obituary and more reflections: http://www2.truman.edu/~adavis/mfs1.html From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Oct 27 20:57:30 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:57:30 -0500 Subject: Kaiseki (1972); Jerquee Message-ID: KAISEKI I just checked OED for "kaiseki." No hits. Yeesh! "Kaiseki" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). Google has about 13,300 hits! KAISEKI RYORI SAIKO HOCHO by Gyokuzan Hokyo 1805 (Earliest hit on OCLC WorldCat database. In Japanese--ed.) KAISEKI: ZEN TASTES IN JAPANESE COOKING by Kaichi Tsuji Kyoto: Kodansha International 1972 (Earliest English hit on the OCLC WorldCat database. I'll have to look for it in a Japanese cooking book where it's not in the title--ed.) 9 May 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 25 ad: The Finest Restaurant In Japan Is at the Waldorf _Chef's Gourmet Kaiseki_ $22 Tsuki-dashi... Zensai... Soup of the day... Sashimi... Nimono... Sunomono... Tempura... Yakimono... Akadashi... Dessert... INAGIKU 111 East 49th Street 25 April 1980, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C14 ad: Kaiseki: an exquisite experience that unfolds course by course with traditional grace and subtlety. MITSUKOSHI 465 Park Avenue at 57th Street (There are 40 NEW YORK TIMES hits pre-1986, but 71 hits from 1986-1998. C'mon, OED--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- JERQUEE I don't know if this was in that ONION story about the motorist "amazed by the array of jerky choices." "Jerquee" is vegetarian "jerky." See the web site at www.soybean.com. It's on Google Groups since 1997. It doesn't appear to be generic beyond this one product, however. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 27 23:23:25 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: Manhattan's Newest Tables (DEPARTURES, Nov/Dec 2002) In-Reply-To: <44.2871485a.2aed837c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The F.Y.I. in the City section of today's NEW YORK TIMES mentions our Fred > Shapiro. And our Barry Popik. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 28 01:05:38 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:05:38 -0800 Subject: Odd Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, This question may seem a little absurd, but part of my class project is to participate in this listserv. My question is about the origin of a phrase. I was talking to my mother and without realizing, I replied to something she said with "Believe you me." Now, like I said, it's a little odd, but it's something I've heard my whole life. I was wondering if anyone knew where it originated. If it's just slang for Eastern KY or something else. And, do you use punctuation and where? Thanks, Annie Bush __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 28 01:07:18 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:07:18 -0800 Subject: Odd Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Also, another thing I hear from mostly my grandmother and great grandmother is "I swan." I've found myself saying this. Just wondering if anyone could tell me about this one, also. Thanks, Annie Bush __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Oct 27 22:31:56 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:31:56 -0400 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: _Believe you me_ appears in OEDs with dates of 1926, 1943, 1951, 1967, none of which are quotations from Missouri. And, _believe_ is not an entry in either DARE or DA. The first quote (1926) is from the Society for Pure English Tracts. The second is from the writing of E.M. Delafield (Elizabeth M. Dashwood, an English author). The OEDs suggests, by listing it with _believe me_, that it is an extension from _believe me_ (OEDs, 1646). Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Oct 27 22:41:59 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:41:59 -0400 Subject: I swan Message-ID: This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from Michigan Connecticut Wisconsin Kansas Indiana Illinois Iowa (central, northern, and s.w.) New York Nebraska Arkansas New Hampshire Alabama New England Maine West Virginia Missouri Texas. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 03:59:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:59:26 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) Message-ID: What is the earliest date for "moot court"? OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book published about 70 years later. The Library of Congress's American Memory database has a large volume of Jefferson's work online now. There are _no_ "moot court" hits on that database! OED's next citation is 1899--111 years later! Obviously, they're working on this. What do they have? OCLC WorldCat has a book titled JOURNAL OF THE LAW-SCHOOL, AND THE MOOT-COURT ATTACHED TO IT AT NEEDHAM, IN VIRGINIA (1821). Was this before the Harvard or Yale Law Schools? From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Oct 28 04:34:20 2002 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:34:20 -0700 Subject: "the" with season names (fwd) Message-ID: dInIs, I could say "It snows a lot in winter" if I lived in Michigan, but I can't say it here in southern Arizona. Rudy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:42:53 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: In (the?) season x I suspect region! I can't say "It snows a lot in winter." Too bad we don't know more about the regional-social distribution of article use (except for the well-known Transatlantic stuff like "in hospital," etc...). dInIs -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages 740 Wells Hall A Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office - (517) 353-0740 Fax - (517) 432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:42:52 -0400 From: Dodi Schultz Subject: In (the?) season x Rima McKinzey, citing Tennyson, says, >> When it's ongoing and general, I don't use the definite article. "In >> spring a young man's fancy..." What the poet, attuned to the rhythm of the line, actually wrote was: "In the spring a young man's fancy lightly turns to thoughts of love." (Locksley Hall, 1842) --Dodi Schultz ------------------------------ From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 13:22:39 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:22:39 EST Subject: "unsub" Message-ID: >From an article on the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing Philadelphia Inquirer 27 October 2002 page C3 column 5 "I can't tell you how many thousands and thousands of man-hours went into pursuing every lead that came in on unsub number two," [former FBI Deputy Director] Kennedy said, using the FBI shorthand for unidentified subject. - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 13:45:19 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:45:19 EST Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: In a message dated 10/23/02 1:28:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU writes: > Believe it or not, there are lots of people > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" > . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases as "light at > the end > of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when > Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty old codgers, Is "Fifth Column" another such phrase which can be considered to have dropped out of the language (in this case, all European languages) to appear forevermore only in Fred Shapiro quotation books? (Unless someone decides to revive Hemingway's stage play of that name.) I ask this because a friend of mine is writing the sequel to a 1964 novel in which the phrase "Fifth Column" was freely used, and his sequel requires strict adherence to 1964 language. Yet would his readers recognize the phrase? - Jim Landau P.S. Come to think of it, today's college students must be pretty shaky on what the "Iron Curtain" was. From susandgilbert at MSN.COM Mon Oct 28 13:50:50 2002 From: susandgilbert at MSN.COM (Susan Gilbert) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:50:50 -0500 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: I hear it here in NW NC "I swain" long a-- SDG ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 8:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Odd Question _Believe you me_ appears in OEDs with dates of 1926, 1943, 1951, 1967, none of which are quotations from Missouri. And, _believe_ is not an entry in either DARE or DA. The first quote (1926) is from the Society for Pure English Tracts. The second is from the writing of E.M. Delafield (Elizabeth M. Dashwood, an English author). The OEDs suggests, by listing it with _believe me_, that it is an extension from _believe me_ (OEDs, 1646). Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] barnhart at highlands.com www.highlands.com/Lexik "Necessity obliges us to neologize." Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Mon Oct 28 14:04:29 2002 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:04:29 -0600 Subject: Odd Question Message-ID: That one I know--except I heard swany. It's a euphemism for I swear, usually used by those whose religious beliefs look down on swearing. That is, saying "I swear." Other swearing was still used liberally at least "in my parts." Lesa Dill Hollie B wrote: > Hi, > > Also, another thing I hear from mostly my grandmother > and great grandmother is "I swan." I've found myself > saying this. Just wondering if anyone could tell me > about this one, also. > > Thanks, > Annie Bush > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 28 15:49:30 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:49:30 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) In-Reply-To: <742DF0D1.6A5EB8E7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 10:59:26PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by >Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book >published about 70 years later. The Library of Congress's >American Memory database has a large volume of Jefferson's >work online now. There are _no_ "moot court" hits on that >database! So, all that means is that the cite we have is from a work not in the American Memory database. > OED's next citation is 1899--111 years later! Obviously, >they're working on this. What do they have? The revised entry for _moot_ will be appearing in the December update. However, I don't think it will be too drastically changed. When a word appears as a compound of this sort, we usually wouldn't give more than a cite or two per century. If it had sufficient complexities we'd upgrade the compound to a headword, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. A pre-1788 cite would be welcomed, though. Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 16:01:26 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:01:26 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: <38.3062e9ec.2aee996f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember > > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or was a slogan cooked up by promoters? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 16:23:54 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:23:54 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0500 10/28/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: > >> > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only don't remember >> > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or "Cassius Clay" > >Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or >was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > >Fred Shapiro > No, but I've always heard it (and seen it) as "thrilla in Manila". No liaison. Larry From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Mon Oct 28 16:21:32 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:21:32 -0000 Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > Fred Shapiro > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: It will be a killer And a chiller And a thrilla When I get the gorilla In Manila. That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on the poster) may be taken to back this up. Jonathon Green From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 16:50:51 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:50:51 -0500 Subject: Espresso, Biscotti (Baedeker, 1928) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress in Washington. I read the November 2002 SAVEUR on the way down. There's a lead story about Clementine Paddleford. The SAVEUR senior editor had never heard of her until two years ago. To research the article, the editor got her expenses paid to visit Kansas. That's lifetime earnings to me (with no expenses paid)...There are stories on sukiyaki, gorditas--all stuff I did first cites for. Then there's a cover story on New York State apples called "Big Apples." No way that anyone on the staff has heard of my work. Maybe I don't work hard enough? No "five-way chilli" ad in the Cincinnati phonebooks I requested so far. Maybe the Key West phonebooks will give me some pie. For "moot court," add a "moot court competition." I doubt that Thomas Jefferson coined "moot court" in 1788. What's the first entry in a law dictionary, and why isn't that cited? Maybe those OED-lawyer guys in that March 2002 ABA JOURNAL article have something? --------------------------------------------------------------- ITALY FROM THE ALPS TO NAPLES ABRIDGED HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELERS by Karl Baedeker Third Revised Edition Leipzig: Karl Baedeker, Publisher 1928 For some reason, there doesn't seem to be other ITALY editions between 1911 and 1928. This is the same stuff, but two years earlier than the 1930 that I'd posted. Pg. XXI: _Risotto_ (_alla milanese_), rich stewed rice (with saffron). Pg. XXII: _Pane_, bread. Pg. XXII: Coffee is generally drunk black (_caffe_ or _caffe nero_; 60 c.--1 1/2 _L_ per cup); it is often prepared specially (_espresso_) for each customer and is then excellent. "Caffe _e_ latte" means coffe and milk served separately; a large cup of _caffe latte_ (cafe au lait) costs 1-1 1/2 _L._ (a _cappuccino_, or small cup, is cheaper), a cup of chocolate (-cioccolata_) 1 1/2-2 _L._, biscuits (_biscotti_) and little cakes (_paste_) 40, 60, 80 c. each. Pg. 238 (Rome Restaurants, Cafes): ...at these two grilling ("rosticcerie") a specialty... ..._Alfredo_, Via della Scrofa 104a (pl. C, 3)... (Doesn't Alfredo's have a specialty??--ed.) From dave at WILTON.NET Mon Oct 28 16:58:50 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:58:50 -0800 Subject: Fifth Column In-Reply-To: <38.3062e9ec.2aee996f@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Believe it or not, there are lots of people > > (including stacks of today's undergrads) who not only > don't remember > > Howard Cossell but draw blanks on "thriller in Manila" or > "Cassius Clay" > > . . . or, for that matter, such Viet Nam War catchphrases > as "light at > > the end > > of the tunnel" or even "make love, not war". "I like Ike" or "when > > Harry dropped the bomb" are blanks for any but some pretty > old codgers, > > Is "Fifth Column" another such phrase which can be considered > to have dropped > out of the language (in this case, all European languages) to appear > forevermore only in Fred Shapiro quotation books? Gooja turns up over 15,000 hits for "fifth column" on Usenet. I don't think the phrase is dead yet (lots of uses in reference to al-Qaeda). Glancing at the first page of hits, it seems as if people are using it naturally and not in quotes or asking what it means (although I'm sure a fair amount of that happens as well). I used to get asked where this phrase comes from quite frequently--until I put it up on my site a few months ago. The phrase seems to be familiar and the sense clear to most, but the original reference is obscure to many. "Light at the end of the tunnel" a Vietnam-era phrase? The OED2 has a 1922 cite with that exact phrasing (actually it's "daylight") and an 1879 George Eliot citation using the metaphor, but not the exact phrase. I also hear "I like Ike" occasionally, usually when someone wants to evoke the 50s. I would think that large numbers of those who weren't around then (like me) instantly recognize the phrase. "When Harry dropped the bomb" I have never heard, but the reference is clear to anyone with even a little American History in their background (although my first reaction was to conflate it with "When Harry Met Sally.") > P.S. Come to think of it, today's college students must be > pretty shaky on > what the "Iron Curtain" was. Heavy metal band? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 28 17:03:37 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:03:37 -0500 Subject: Moot Court (1788?) In-Reply-To: <20021028154930.GA23668@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 10:59:26PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > OED's entry is dreadful. The first entry is allegedly by > >Thomas Jefferson from 1788, but it's cited from a book > >published about 70 years later. It is common for the OED to cite standard editions of older authors, which may have been published much later than the original texts. The alternative for something like a Jefferson letter would be verifying such quotes in manuscript collections around the world, which clearly is impracticable (people who publish reference works have to think of practicability, without which reference works would never be published). One of the great things about the OED is that if they take a quotation from a later edition they will cite it precisely to the later edition, as opposed to most people who take quotations from later editions but don't tell you so. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 17:26:26 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:26:26 -0500 Subject: Stromboli (1954, 1959) Message-ID: I don't recall finding a very early "stromboli" in NEW YORK TIMES full text. I'll get to Cincinnati "chili" in a minute. THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY CITIZENS TELEPHONE COMPANY 1959 Pg. 598, col. 1: _PASQUALE'S_ menas "Food Fun for Everyone"! Pizza--Peewee, Medium, Large Sandwiches--Stromboli Steak, Hoggie, Tunabella, Fish Meat Ball Hoggie Casseroles--Ravioli, Spaghetti, Chicken Cacciatore Chicken Basket--Side Dishes (30 Carry Out locations--ed.) >From US Patent & Trademark Office records: Word Mark STROMBOLI Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: SANDWICH. FIRST USE: 19540701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19540701 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73323903 Filing Date 0000 Owner (APPLICANT) AQUINO, MICHAEL BURGER ROYAL INDIVIDUAL E. 6115 TRENT RD. SPOKANE WASHINGTON 99206 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 8, 1982 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 18:16:04 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:16:04 -0500 Subject: Cincinnati Chili (1964 phonebook) Message-ID: "Dixie Chili" (1929) advertises itself as the oldest "Cincinnati Chili" here. Many "chili" ads, but the multiple ways are not mentioned...I asked for a 1969 book, but was given the White Pages....Pg. 601 has an ad for FRISCH'S, of the "BIG BOY" and "BRAWNY LAD" sandwiches. THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY CITIZENS TELEPHONE COMPANY 1964 Pg. 602, col. 2: Angelo's Chili Parlor 2600 Benton Cov Pg. 602, col. 4: ART'S CHILI KITCHEN Best Chili in Town 4908 Whetsel Pg. 603, col. 2: Bellevue Chili Parlor 519 Fairfld... Bell's Tom Chili Prlr 10 W Benson... Benson Chili & Grill 509 W Benson... Pg. 604, col. 1: BRENTWOOD CHILI 8542 Winton... Bridgetown Chili 6548 Glnwy Pg. 604, cols. 3-4 ad: FAMOUS-ORIGINAL _EMPRESS CHILI_ "TRY OUR FAMOUS FROZEN CHILI WITH BEANS OR SPAGHETTI" Pg. 605, col. 3: CHILI BOWL ELMWOOD'S FINEST SINCE 1938 CHILI THE "WAY" YOU LIKE IT Chili Spaghetti--Coney's--Short Orders 6110 VINE Pg. 605, col. 4: CHILI KITCHEN NO I 6014 VINE CHILI TIME RESTRNT 4720 Vine Chili Villa 9944 Reading Pg. 606, col. 1: Cleves Chili Plr 32 S Miami Pg. 607, col. 1: Crystal Chili Parlor 843 Monmth Npt Pg. 607, col. 3: Delhi Chili 4835 Delhi Pg. 607, col. 4: DIXIE CHILI FAMOUS SINCE '29 (3 locations--ed.) Pg. 608, col. 1: EAGLE CHILI PARLOR 624 6th Day Pg. 608, col. 2: EDDIE'S PEPPER POD CHILI BAR 2179 CENTRAL Pg. 608, col. 4: Emperor Chili Parlor 4735 Montgy... EMPIRE CHILI PRLR... EMPRESS CHILI CO INC... Pg. 610, col. 1: Gladys' Chile Bar 2707 Vine... Glenway Chili Plr 5010 Glnwy Pg. 610, col. 2: GROESBECK CHILI 7625 Colrain... GUY'S CHILI PRLR & RESTRNT 9272 Colombs Cinti... HAMBURGER HEAVEN GOLD STAR CHILI (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 610, col. 4: Hilltop Chili Prlr 4010 Glnwy Pg. 611, col. 4: Ky Chili Prlr 339 Pike Cov... Kollman's Chili 2444 Vine Pg. 612, col. 1: Latonia Chili (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 612, col. 2: LIBERTY CHILI 3938 Sprng Grv... LITTLE MEXICO CHILI PRLR FAMOUS ORIGINAL CHILI Coney Island--Chili Spaghetti 1348 Vine Pg. 612, col. 3: LOU'S CHILI PARLOR 5842 Hamilton Ave Pg. 613, col. 1: Midway Chili 3 E 3 Npt Pg. 613, col. 2: MURRAY'S CHILI BAR 4409 1/2 Montgy... Naegel's Creamy Whip & Chili Prlr 4303 Kellgg Pg. 613, col. 3: NEW-WAY CHILI (2 locations--ed.) Pg. 613, col. 4: Park Chili Parlor 4160 Hamilton Pg. 614, col. 3: Price Hill Chili 4920 Glnwy Pg. 615, col. 3: Shorty's Chili Kitchen Inc. 3158 Madsn Pg. 615, col. 4: SKYLINE CHILI CO EST. 1949 Cincinnati's Chili Specialists (5 locations--ed.)... Smile Chili Parlr 4419 Montgy Pg. 616, col. 1: Stone's Chili Prlr 3605 Harisn... SUNSET CHILI 814 Vine Pg. 616, col. 4: VIDAS CHILI TIME RESTRNT 4720 Vine... VINCE'S CHILI KITCHN 6014 Vine Pg. 617, col. 2: White Oak Chili & Restrnt 5880 Cheviot From mam at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 28 18:19:08 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:19:08 -0500 Subject: "unsub" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #>From an article on the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing #Philadelphia Inquirer 27 October 2002 page C3 column 5 # #"I can't tell you how many thousands and thousands of man-hours went into #pursuing every lead that came in on unsub number two," [former FBI Deputy #Director] Kennedy said, using the FBI shorthand for unidentified subject. # Whereas with list servers like ADS-L it means "unsubscribe, cancel subscription". I've used it that way in speech. -- Mark A. Mandel From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Mon Oct 28 18:33:32 2002 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:33:32 -0600 Subject: ANS Hotel in New York (MLA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/25/02 4:20 PM, Grant Smith at gsmith at MAIL.EWU.EDU wrote: > I have made local arrangements for ANS during MLA, and the hotel > we're at wants to sell more beds, and so is offering a good deal. > They would like us to > > TELL ALL FRIENDS AND ENEMIES ABOUT THE GOOD DEAL AT THE MILLENNIUM HOTEL. > > There is no limit on the number of rooms available. The Millennium > has excellent location. At four stars, it's a step up in grade from > most MLA hotels. And at $105 single OR double, it's the best deal in > town. > > If you know people going to New York for Dec. 25-30, they are welcome > too. Just call the Millennium, and say you're with the "American > Name Society." > > Here are the details: > > Millennium on Broadway > 145 West 44th Street > New York, NY 10036 > Phone: 212-768-4400 > 1-800-622-5569 > Fax: 212-768-0847 > Steps from Times Square. Featuring 752 finely appointed guest rooms, > available in three types: Millennium Classic, Millennium Club, and > Millennium Premier. Includes conference center, theater, restaurant, > business center, fitness center, and room service. > -- > Grant W. Smith, Immediate Past President Phone: 509-359-6023 > American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 > Vice Pres., Intl. Council Onomastic Sciences > Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu > Eastern Washington University, MS-25 > 250 Patterson Hall > Cheney, WA 99004-2430 > www.class.ewu.edu/class/engl/gsmith/home.html this is to let you know that Don Lance passed away and was not able to pass this information on to others. Please see that the information gets to those who need it. With sincere regrets, Carolyn Lance, Sister-in-law. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 18:46:02 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:46:02 -0500 Subject: Maltese Dog (1838) Message-ID: DESCRIPTION OF MALTA AND GOZO by George Percy Badger Malta: Printing and Lithography by M. Weiss 1838 Pg. 59: The race of Maltese dogs, so much renowned in Europe, and called _bichons_ by Buffon in his Natural History, is now nearly extinct. They are very small, with long glistening hair reaching down to the feet, a face covered with the same, and a turned-up nose. I acknowledge that I can see but very little beauty in these dwarfish creatures, and am led to think it is only their rarity which fixes their value at so high a price; they are sometimes sold for forty dollars. (The revised OED has 1860. I was asked about this in Malta...WHERE ARE TEN OF MY BOOKS! IT'S BEEN FOUR HOURS! I DIDN'T MAKE THIS TRIP JUST FOR MALTESE DOGS AND ESPRESSO!--ed.) From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 28 18:54:16 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:54:16 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled at. Herb Stahlke > > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) > p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first > delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: > > It will be a killer > And a chiller > And a thrilla > When I get the gorilla > In Manila. > > That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on > the poster) may be taken to back this up. > > Jonathon Green > From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 28 19:34:54 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:34:54 -0500 Subject: Maltese Dog (1838) In-Reply-To: <0DBAD1BF.1CD8523D.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 01:46:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DESCRIPTION OF MALTA AND GOZO > by George Percy Badger > Malta: Printing and Lithography by M. Weiss > 1838 > > Pg. 59: > The race of Maltese dogs, so much renowned in Europe, and called _bichons_ by Buffon in his Natural History, is now nearly extinct. They are very small, with long glistening hair reaching down to the feet, a face covered with the same, and a turned-up nose. I acknowledge that I can see but very little beauty in these dwarfish creatures, and am led to think it is only their rarity which fixes their value at so high a price; they are sometimes sold for forty dollars. > > (The revised OED has 1860. I was asked about this in Malta...WHERE ARE TEN OF MY BOOKS! IT'S BEEN FOUR HOURS! I DIDN'T MAKE THIS TRIP JUST FOR MALTESE DOGS AND ESPRESSO!--ed.) Actually, that's not accurate. The revised OED has 1860 for _Maltese_ meaning 'a dog of the Maltese breed'. For the compound _Maltese dog_ itself, which is what you're quoting above, OED3 has 1754. Jesse Sheidlower OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 20:19:00 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:19:00 EST Subject: Fifth Column Message-ID: In a message dated 10/28/02 1:58:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled > at. > > > It will be a killer > > And a chiller > > And a thrilla > > When I get the gorilla > > In Manila. The two are NOT mutually exclusive. "Doggerel" refers to the literary quality (or lack of it) of the verse being considered. "Rap" refers to the style of rhythm and melody. The words of a given rap performance may constitute a poem of high literary merit, or may constitute doggeral, but either way the performance is "rap". Oh, yes, a friend named Stan Rosenthal perpetrated the following "It will be a killa in Manila," said Muhammed Ali, predictably. - Jim Landau From psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Oct 28 20:55:52 2002 From: psokolowski at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Peter Sokolowski) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:55:52 -0500 Subject: in (the) season, in (the) hospital Message-ID: Hi folks: Isn't this also a largely British vs. American usage issue? Sort like "hospital" and "university." Cheers, Peter Peter A. Sokolowski Associate Editor Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street Springfield, MA 01102 Phone: (413) 734-3134 E-mail: psokolowski at Merriam-Webster.com Visit us online at http://www.Merriam-Webster.com From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Oct 28 21:28:20 2002 From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:28:20 -0800 Subject: I swan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An expanded version is heard as well, and probably well beyond northern Arkansas: "I swanee to my soul!" and "Well, I do swan!" I'd guess it's a euphemism for "swear," which of course no proper person would want to admit doing. Peter Richardson On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Barnhart wrote: > This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated > it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from > > Michigan > Connecticut > Wisconsin > Kansas > Indiana > Illinois > Iowa > (central, northern, and s.w.) New York > Nebraska > Arkansas > New Hampshire > Alabama > New England > Maine > West Virginia > Missouri > Texas. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > barnhart at highlands.com > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Mon Oct 28 22:22:05 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:22:05 -0500 Subject: I swan Message-ID: "AH SWAN" = "I SWOON" Peter Richardson wrote: > An expanded version is heard as well, and probably well beyond northern > Arkansas: "I swanee to my soul!" and "Well, I do swan!" I'd guess it's a > euphemism for "swear," which of course no proper person would want to > admit doing. > > Peter Richardson > > On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Barnhart wrote: > > > This, of course, will not be found yet in DARE. But, Wentworth treated > > it in his American Dialect Dictionary. He has cites from > > > > Michigan > > Connecticut > > Wisconsin > > Kansas > > Indiana > > Illinois > > Iowa > > (central, northern, and s.w.) New York > > Nebraska > > Arkansas > > New Hampshire > > Alabama > > New England > > Maine > > West Virginia > > Missouri > > Texas. > > > > Regards, > > David K. Barnhart, Editor > > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] > > barnhart at highlands.com > > www.highlands.com/Lexik > > > > "Necessity obliges us to neologize." > > Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813 > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Oct 28 23:02:20 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:02:20 -0500 Subject: New Joe Special, Mongolian Barbecue (1963) Message-ID: GOURMET INTERNATIONAL'S RECOMMENDED RESTAURANTS OF SAN FRANCISCO edited by Leonce Picot Fort Lauderdale, FL: Gourmet International 1963 Pg. 84: NEW JOE'S 540 Broadway, S. F. (EX 2-9979) Right in the heart of the North Beach belt. If you're a people watcher and dig characters you'll enjoy this one. On other menus around town you will find Joe's Special--a kind of scrambled omelette with spinach, eggs, hamburger and onions; this is where this favorite San Francisco dish was created. Try it late at night. Pg. 94: _GOBI INN_ The Gobi Inn is a treasure trove of adventures in Chinese cuisine, offering the less known Northern Chinese dishes as well as the more familiar Cantonese preparations. With keen insight Mr. Chen and Mr. Lee most astutuely have incorporated high adventure into their menu through the introduction of the Ghenghis Khan Fire Pot and Kublai Khan barbecue. A method of food perparation that dates back to the days of the nomadic Mongolians that roved the Gobi Desert, the Fire Pot itself is a utensil which has comprised a portable kitchen to the orientals for centuries. (...) (Pg. 95--ed.) The _Kublai Khan_ barbecue is a mixture of beef mixed with Chinese parsley and/or green onions and spiked with any combination of exotic sauces available such as soy sauce, sweet Chinese cooking wine, hot garlic sauce and a very hot chili oil. Served with Chinese buns, this may be eaten as a sandwich. (...) MISSION BETWEEN OCEAN AND 7TH, CARMEL BY THE SEA. (Sorry for looking at the wrong "Maltese dog." That's where the OED screen was when it flipped to LATER....MY BOOKS ARRIVED _SIX HOURS_ LATER. THE BELT BETWEEN THE JEFFERSON AND MADISON BUILDINGS BROKE WITH MY BOOKS ON IT. LIBRARY SUPERVISORS ARE NICE, BUT I DON'T ONE TO SEE ONE AGAIN ANYTIME SOON...AOL wasn't working, either...They have the BOSTON PHOENIX from 1980 only, so there goes the Steve's ice cream "mix-ins" and "Joe Six Pack"...No Key West phone directories for "key lime pie"...No British materials here to antedate "vegan" and "vegetarian," though I tried--ed.) From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 29 00:44:52 2002 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:44:52 -0500 Subject: Fwd: internship positions? Message-ID: > Hello, > > My name is Amelia Ashton. I'm currently a sophomore at Stanford > University majoring in English. I'm writing to inquire about possible > internship opportunities this summer. Are there any in your company > you could tell me about please? > > Thank you, > Amelia Ashton > aashton at stanford.edu From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Oct 29 04:36:32 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:36:32 -0500 Subject: LINGUIST: Historical lexicography Message-ID: The following is from the LINGUIST List, and is probably of interest to some of our members too. ----- begin forwarded message ----- -------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:31:03 -0000 From: "Coleman, Dr J.M." Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Dear all, As a result of the International Conference on Historical Lexicography and Lexicology in Leicester this summer, we have established (rather informally) a new scholarly society: the International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology. If you are interested in joining (it's free), please visit our web-page. http://www.le.ac.uk/ee/jmc21/ishll.html Apologies for cross-posting. Dr Julie Coleman Senior Lecturer English Department University of Leicester University Road Leicester. LE1 7RH UK phone: + 44(0)116 252 2635 fax: + 44(0)116 252 2065 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-13-2773 ----- End forwarded message ----- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 10:20:09 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:20:09 EST Subject: Kringle (1936); Stromboli (1957); Tcheburek (1914); Fondue (1829) Message-ID: KRINGLE DARE has a 1950 date for this Danish specialty, found mostly at Racine, Wisconsin. I had found one "kringle" citation in the 1800s (not American). As usual, the phonebook trick worked. I looked under "Bakers." October 1936, RACINE CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 12, col. 1: _UPTOWN BAKERY_ The Place with the Kringels on the Window If you want real Danish Pastry this is the place to get it ALEX HENRIKSEN, Prop. 1338 Washingtonav...Jackson-7072 ("Kringel"...The first of many ads by this bakery--ed.) May 1941, RACINE CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 13, col. 1: Lincoln Bakery Specializing in Danish Kringles 1815 State...Jackson-5461 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BISMARK, LONG JOHN July 1951, RACINE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY, pg. 16, col. 2 ad: _DIXIE CREAM DONUTS_ CHOCOLATE-COCOANUT POWDERED-PLAIN Also LONG JOHNS-BISMARKS CRUELLERS-CINNAMON BUNS CALL 2-3757 220 MAIN ST. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- STROMBOLI Supposedly from Philadelphia, and I'll have to re-check that. This is a little earlier than I'[d just posted from Cincinnati. 1957, THE CINCINNATI AND SUBURBAN BELL TELEPHONE COMPANY, pg. 591, col. 1 ad: _PASQUALE'S_ (...) STROMBOLI STEAK SANDWICHES (Many locations--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- TCHEBUREK RUSSIA WITH TEHERAN, PORT ARTHUR, AND PEKING HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS by Karl Baedeker Lepizig: Karl Baedeker 1914 I wanted to get the ITALY (1895) to see if "cappuccino" is there, but of course, it was not on the Library of Congress shelf. I spotted this Baedeker I don't think I looked at before. It covers a huge amount of ground (Russia, Finland, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, and China). Unfortunately, there is no descriptive food section like for ITALY. Pg. 202 (FINLAND): "Knackebrod" is bread in thin, hard, round slices. Pg. 405 (THE CRIMEA): Among the Tartar national dishes may be mentioned tcheburek (a kind of meat-pie), and shashluik (mutton roasted on a spit). Pg. 466 (TIFLIS, GEORGIA): Among the national dishes are the following: shashliuk (p. 405), basturma (beef roasted on the spit), tchikhirtma (soup with mutton or fowl, saffron, and other spices), loko (boiled fish from the Kura), and plov (the Turkish pilau). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FONDUE VEGETABLE COOKERY, WITH AN INTRODUCTION RECOMMENDING ABSTINENCE FROM ANIMAL FOOD & INTOXICATING LIQUORS 3d ed. London: Sold by H. Phillips 1829 This book was in the Library of Congress's Rare Book Room. I didn't find "vegetarian" here, but perhaps someone can use the "fondue." (See archives for other "fondues" of this period--ed.) Pg. 74: _287. Fondue._ Take a half a pound of good grated cheese, the crumb of a roll steeped in hot milk, a piece of butter the size of a walnut, the yolks of three eggs well beaten, mix all together very well, then add the whites, beaten to a froth, immediately before you put it in the oven. Bake it in a quick oven; it has the appearance of a pudding, and is excellent. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 15:58:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:58:43 EST Subject: Maltese Cook Book (1968) Message-ID: The NYPL has only two entries for "Cookery, Maltese." The earliest is 1997. This was the earliest in the LOC. It's still not very early--no date is on the booklet, but it is stamped May 3, 1968. There are also no page numbers. Two trips ago, in the Ukraine, it was commented to me that a measure of how ready a place is for tourism is if it has an English language cookbook for sale. Well... MALTESE COOK BOOK sponsored by the Government Tourist Board of Malta (1968) Rabbit Pie... Stuffed Vegetable Marrow (Qara Baghli mimli)... Meat Olives (Bragoli)... (OED?--ed.) Date Slices (Imgaret)... Dendici a la Romane... Ravioli a la Maltese... Aljotta (Zuppa di Pesce Ramia Bay)... (OED?--ed.) Baby Mackerel Fritters (Pulpetta tal-makku)... Stuffed Egg Plant (Aubergine)(Brungiel mimli fil-Forn)... Mediterranean Rice... Cuttle Fish or Octopus Stew (Qarnhita)... Maltese Timpana... (OED?--ed.) Stuffed Chicken (Tigiega mimlija)... Vegetable Soup with Meat (Kawlata)... Fresh Cheese and Rikotta Soup (Soppa ta' l-Armia)... Rabbit (La Kampn jola)... Goulash a la Maltese... Hot Cheese-Cakes (Pastizzi Shan) INGREDIENTS 3/4 pound Ricotta 2 eggs Salt Pepper Milk Puff paste (OED must enter "pastizzi/pastizzeria"--ed.) Xkunvat (A Maltese sweet)...(I don't remember seeing it--ed.) Stuffed Maltese Tomatoes... Lsmpuki Pie... Cheese Pie (Torta Tal-Haxu)... Vegetable Soup (Minestra)...(The revised OED entry does not mention Malta, where this is a national dish--ed.) Makkarunelli Bl-Rikotta with Tomato Sauce... From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 15:59:55 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:59:55 EST Subject: "unsub" Message-ID: In a message dated 10/28/02 1:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at THEWORLD.COM writes: > with list servers like ADS-L ["unsub"] means "unsubscribe, cancel > subscription". I've used it that way in speech. This usage can be traced back, facetiously of course, to George Orwell's _1984_ in which, for some reason I don't recall, the totalitarians deplored English's lack of exact antonyms. To cure this, they created words like "ungood". Back to "unsubcribe". There is a subtle difference between "to unsubscribe" and "to cancel a subscription". If you paid for a subscription to something and you CANCEL that subscription, then most likely you will either not be reimbursed or you will be reimbursed but only for the unused portion of your subscription. That is, cancelling a paid subscription does NOT restore the status quo ante, specifically, you are out of pocket a certain amount of money. Of course there are things you can subscribe to for free, and it is always possible that the manager of the subscription list may, figuring the gain in good will outweighs the financial loss, grant you an unsolicited full refund. However, when you "cancel a subscription" there is the CONNOTATION that you have undergone some permanent change of state, which the cancellation has modified but not removed. "To unsubscribe" has a different connotation, namely that no permanent change has been performed or "rendered" upon you. At least in computer jargon or among speakers influenced by computer jargon, that is the connotation. If you "unsubscribe", then the subcription manager wipes the slate clean and no permanent change of state has occurred to you (specifically, if you paid, then you receive a full refund, with interest, so that your finances are unaffected.) For an analogy, consider the difference between a divorce, which recognizes that the marriage has failed and takes actions to settle financial and legal results of the marriage, and an annulment which (lawyers PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) states that the marriage never existed. I am told that a child born of an annulled marriage will have a father but no legal mother or vice versa (supposedly a number of years ago there was one state in which annulments were much easier to get than divorces, resulting in a number of children of the annulled marriages who legally had only one parent.) Yes, I'm taking a personal opinion on connotations into unreasonable reaches, but I'd like to use the above to illustrate something. Bureaucracies have always had the problem of changing an action once that action had been performed. Ending a marriage by divorce is an obvious example. In the Middle Ages, in fact until the French Revolution, marriages among royal and noble houses were frequently used as the formal means to commit two houses to an alliance etc---"Tu, felix Austria, nube". But what if the alliance fell apart or new events made a different alliance necessary? It would be necessary to have a divorce to formally end the alliance (and, more practically, to produce eligible marriage partners for the new alliance.) However, the Catholic Church did not allow divorces, but there was a legal loophole: a marriage could be annulled if it were found to have been within "the prohibited degrees of consanguinity". The royal houses of Europe were of course so interbred that the consanguinity rule could most often be used (but probably due to Spanish influence in Rome, the Pope refused to let Henry VIII use that argument to get rid of Catherine of Aragon). Any bureaucracy faces daily the problem of taking an action already performed and not only reversing the action but also restoring the status quo ante. This means that some bureaucrat (for a major action, a large team of bureaucrats) has to pull all the papers, make the necessary corrections, etc---a less routine process than filling out and filing all the papers on the original action. Now a properly programmed computer is, among other things, the perfect bureaucracy. Any transaction performed (e.g. adding you to a listserve) can be reversed and the status quo ante restored (removing you from the listserve. If you never posted to the list, not only will the listserve have no record of your existence, neither will the list archives). Since computers are perfect bureaucracies, there is a need for a term to describe such a routine perfect reversal of a transaction. There are in fact two such terms, or in fact sets of terms.. The first set, which is not used by the general public, has only one member: "backing out a transaction." The second set consists of various transaction-describing verbs preceded, 1984-style, but the prefix "un-". Examples: undo, undelete, unperform, and of course unsubscribe. - James A. Landau systems engineer FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI) Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA P.S. My favorite bureaucratic word: "to non-concur". "I non-concur with this document" = "I disagree with the statements in this document, and if you publish this document as currently written it is over my written objection." Should this usage be classified as a "fossilized split infinitive"? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 16:28:10 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:28:10 EST Subject: Cooking School (1874, 1865); Brownies (1894); Chicken a la Maryland (1894) Message-ID: I've been going through the Sunday "Affairs of the Household" column in the NEW YORK EVENING POST. I'm looking for "brownies" and "club sandwiches" and "fudge" and a little more. I suggested that it be passed along to Rupert Murdoch that he digitize the entire NEW YORK POST and TIMES of London and make them available to scholars, but no one listens to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- COOKING SCHOOL OED has no entry for "cooking school"? 10 November 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 20, col. 5: To Miss Juliet Corson of this city belongsthe honor of having established the first cooking-school in the United States, and of originating the idea of instructing women in domestic affairs in general. It was in 1874 that Miss Corson began her work, and in 1875 the idea was taken up in the West, where a Miss Allen organized a school of household science in the Industrial University at Champaign, Ill. In 1877 similar work was begun in the Kansas State Agricultural College. Other beginnings in the East and West having the same aims in view were the establishment of a course of teaching in scientific cooking in Lasell Seminary in 1877, under the tuition of Miss Parloa; the opening of a cooking-school in Boston in 1879, and of one in Chicago in 1881. The Chicago school soon became very popular, and its instructor, Mrs. Emma P. Ewing, one of the most able and interesting teachers of cooking in the country, was invited in 1882 to establish a summer cooking-school at Chautauqua. Later, Mrs. Ewing established a "School of Domestic Economy" in Iowa Agricultural College. 7 April 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8: The "Academy" (Prof. Bolot's "Cooking Academy"--ed.) comprises the second floor of the building No. 90 Fourth avenue. (...) The Professor is a political refugee, and when he came here ten years ago, saw the necessity of a cooking school, but, being unable to speak English, could not carry on his idea until the present time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BROWNIES Still looking, but this, in the food/domestic affairs column, perhaps shows that they didn't exist in 1894. 14 July 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 18, col. 6: One meets a new "brownie" at every turn. One of the first to produce Mr. Palmer Cox's funny little creatures in visible form was the woman who made the brownie dolls, soon so popular at the Woman's Exchange. Then the fairy folks were graven in silver and gold and, handsomely enameled, sold for cotillion favors and tennis prizes. Now some one in the name of art has produced them life-size, and they are used to ornament the grounds of a beautiful estate in a well-known suburb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- CHICKEN A LA MARYLAND The revised OED has 1896, from the BOSTON COOKING SCHOOL COOK BOOK. I have several "Chicken a la Maryland" in my files (1880s?)--it was a very popular dish--but in the meantime... 12 May 1894, NEW YORK EVENING POST, pg. 20, col. 6: Baked chicken with a sauce a la Maryland is delicious for a luncheon or a course at a spring dinner. The chicken should be cleaned, wiped with a damp cloth, cut into portions, rolled in beaten egg, and then in fine dry bread crumbs. Bake in a deep dish or pan that has been well buttered, until a rich brown and tender. To prevent the meat from drying, baste occasionally with melted butter. From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 29 16:36:46 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:36:46 -0500 Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Message-ID: >From LINGUIST List # 13.2775 http://linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-2773.html ====================== Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:31:03 -0000 From: Coleman, Dr J.M. Subject: International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology Dear all, As a result of the International Conference on Historical Lexicography and Lexicology in Leicester this summer, we have established (rather informally) a new scholarly society: the International Society for Historical Lexicography and Lexicology. If you are interested in joining (it's free), please visit our web-page. http://www.le.ac.uk/ee/jmc21/ishll.html Apologies for cross-posting. Dr Julie Coleman Senior Lecturer English Department University of Leicester University Road Leicester. LE1 7RH UK phone: + 44(0)116 252 2635 fax: + 44(0)116 252 2065 From mam at THEWORLD.COM Tue Oct 29 17:22:20 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:22:20 -0500 Subject: "unsub" In-Reply-To: <1b9.8943d9e.2af00a7b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, James A. Landau wrote: #This usage can be traced back, facetiously of course, to George Orwell's #_1984_ in which, for some reason I don't recall, the totalitarians deplored #English's lack of exact antonyms. To cure this, they created words like #"ungood". [...] #Now a properly programmed computer is, among other things, the perfect #bureaucracy. Any transaction performed (e.g. adding you to a listserve) can #be reversed and the status quo ante restored (removing you from the #listserve. If you never posted to the list, not only will the listserve have #no record of your existence, neither will the list archives). "Who controls the present controls the past. Who controls the past controls the future." -- Mark A. Mandel From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET Tue Oct 29 19:38:30 2002 From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:38:30 -0600 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? Message-ID: Dear ADS list friends: First, thanks for all your great responses re: "Texas -- It's Like A Whole Other Country" issue. I will be using some of your comments in an upcoming column, and will certainly send it along via e-mail. But meantime, I thought the story below (pasted in, and a link to the site) might be of interest to some of y'all, as we say in San Antone. (We really don't say "San Antone," FYI) I liked the last graph, in which a fairly convincing-sounding neologism (or just a goof-up by whomever wrote this for WOAI Radio or Clear Channel, its parent network) -- "Percention." I doubt it has been used as a word yet, but perhaps it could make a handy contraction for a percent of perception, such as an opinion poll? As in: "An ounce of percention is worth a pound of cure." Ciao, Susan Yerkes http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=51A134E0-A410-4D51-AE51 -EC854F293996 A Texas Accent Could Help You Land a Job LAST UPDATE: 10/29/2002 Want to land that dream job? Then start polishing up your Texas accent. Researchers at the University of North Texas recently selected people who speak in ten distinct regional accents, Texas, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, North Carolina, Minnesota, California, Boston, Chicago, and New Jersey. They were given prepared statements to read, and read them in front of 86 managers, who judged them on the bases of qualities they would seek out in they were hiring, including honesty, education, intelligence, and assertiveness. Among the managers from Texas, the "Texas" speaker ranked first, and among non-Texan managers the Texan ranked third, behind speakers from Minnesota and California, giving the Texas candidate the overall highest score. Researcher Dr. Dianne Markley tells 1200 WOAI news this may have something to do with the fact that a Texan is in the White House. "Leaders are influential in how we think about our spoken language," she said. In all panels the speaker with the "New Jersey" accent ranked lowest, and she says you can blame 'The Sopranos.' "That New York, New Jersey should has often been tagged with that 'gangster, mobster' connection," she said. Markley described the 'Texas' accent as including 'dropping the "g" from words ending in "ing"' and pronouncing "get" as "git." She says since all speakers were asked to deliver a prepared test, regionalisms like 'y'all' were not included in the consideration. She says 'accent discrimination' continues to exist, despite the development of a more national culture, shaped by television, over the past thirty years, with speakers from Minnesota and Boston being rated as educated and intelligent, while speakers from Georgia and Louisiana being considered less intelligent and lazy. "That's the main reason I did this study, to show that 'accent prejudice' still exists, and to make people aware that that prejudice could be helping you to make a bad decision," Markley said. She points out that the public impression of accents changes through time, depending not only on who is in the White House, but what role the particular culture has on the national consciousness. Texas accents were also very highly regarded in the early sixties, during the heyday of John Wayne, who by the way was born in Iowa, and waned in the early eighties, in the days of the hit TV show "Dallas." She says the 86 'hirers' were not told which accent was being delivered by which person, but she says the accents were generally identified, with the New Jersey and Texas accents identified most frequently, and the California, which Markley called the 'plain American' and Minnesota accent being less readily identified. "Unlike race or sex, it is still acceptable to discriminate against somebody on the basis of accent," she says. All of the 86 "hirers" in the test were men. Markley says the next step will be to do similar research with women, and see if their percentions differ. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 21:13:34 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:13:34 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) Message-ID: A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR MODERN LAWS by Tho. Blount The Third Edition In the SAVOY: Printed by Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling 1717 _Moot_ (from Sax. Motian(?), To treat or handle) is well understood at the Inns of Court to be that Exercise of Arguing of Cases, which young _Barrasters_ and Students perform at certain Times, for the better enabling them for Practice and Defence of Client's Causes. The Place where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from the Sax Mopeal(?). In the Inns of Court there is a _Bailiff_ or _Surveyor of the Moots_, who is yearly chosen by the Bench, to appoint the _Mootmen_ for the Inns of Chancery, and to keep Accompt of the Performance of Exercises both there and in the House. See _Orig. Juriciales_, _fol._ 212. _Moothouse-Court:_ So the Hundred Court of _Bingham_ in _Nottinghamshire_ is called, and the Place where 'tis held is called the _Moothouse-Pit_. _Antiq. of Nottinghamshire_, _fol._ 71,4. _Mootmen_, are those that argue Readers Cases (called also _Moot-Cases_) in the Houses of _CHancery_, both in Terms and in Vacations. _Coke's Rep._ 3 _Par. in Proaemio_. ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Tue Oct 29 21:30:17 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:30:17 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) Message-ID: http://66.1911encyclopedia.org/M/ME/MEETING.htm MEETING (from ?to meet,? to come together, assemble, 0. Eng. m?tan ; cf. Du. moeten, Swed. m?ta, Goth. gamotjan, &c., derivatives of the Teut. word for a meeting, seen in 0. Eng. m?tf moot, an assembly of the people; cf. witanagemot), a gathering together of persons for the purpose of discussion or for the transaction of business. Public meetings may be either those of statutory bodies or assemblies of persons called together for social, political or other purposes. In the case of statutory bodies, by-laws usually fix the quorum necessary to constitute a legal meeting. That of limited companies may be either by reference to the capital held, or by a fixed quorum or one in proportion to the number of shareholders. It has been held that in the case of a company it takes at least two persons to constitute a meeting (Sharp v. Daws, 1886, 2 Q.B.D. 26). In the case of public meetings for social, political or other purposes no quorum is necessary. They may be held, if they are for a lawful purpose, in any place, on any day and at any hour, provided they satisfy certain statutory provisions or by-laws made under the authority of a statute for the safety of persons attending such meetings. If, however, a meeting is held in the street and it causes an obstruction those convening the meeting may be proceeded against for obstructing the highway. The control of a meeting and the subjects to be discussed are entirely witl~in the discretion of those convening it, and whether the meeting is open to the public without payment, or subject to a charge or to membership of a specified body or society, those present are there merely by virtue of a licence of the conven?rs, which licence may be revoked at any time. The person whose licence is revoked may be requested to withdraw from the meeting, and on his refusal may be ejected with such force as is necessary. If he employs violence to those removing him he commits a breach of the peace for which he may be given into custody. An important English act has dealt for the first time with the disturbance of a public meeting. The Public Meeting Act 19o8 enacted that any person who at a lawful public meeting acts in a disorderly manner for the purpose of preventing the transaction of the business for which the meeting was called together shall be guilty of an offence, and if the offence is committed at a political meeting held~ in any parliamentary constituency between the issue and return of a writ, the offence is made an illegal practice within the meaning of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act 1883. Any person who incites another to commit the offence is equally guilty. A public meeting is usually controlled by a chairman, who may be appointed by the conveners or elected by the meeting itself. On the chairman falls the duty of preserving order, of calling on persons to speak, deciding points of order, of putting questions to the meeting for decision, and declaring the result and other incidental matters. In England it is illegal, by a statute of George III. (Seditious Meetings Act 1817), - to hold a public meeting in the open air within I m. of Westminster Hall during the sitting of Parliament. See C. P. Blackwell?s Law of Meetings (1910). Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR MODERN LAWS > by Tho. Blount > The Third Edition > In the SAVOY: Printed by Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling > 1717 > > _Moot_ (from Sax. Motian(?), To treat or handle) is well understood at the Inns of Court to be that Exercise of Arguing of Cases, which young _Barrasters_ and Students perform at certain Times, for the better enabling them for Practice and Defence of Client's Causes. The Place where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from the Sax Mopeal(?). In the Inns of Court there is a _Bailiff_ or _Surveyor of the Moots_, who is yearly chosen by the Bench, to appoint the _Mootmen_ for the Inns of Chancery, and to keep Accompt of the Performance of Exercises both there and in the House. See _Orig. Juriciales_, _fol._ 212. > > _Moothouse-Court:_ So the Hundred Court of _Bingham_ in _Nottinghamshire_ is called, and the Place where 'tis held is called the _Moothouse-Pit_. _Antiq. of Nottinghamshire_, _fol._ 71,4. > > _Mootmen_, are those that argue Readers Cases (called also _Moot-Cases_) in the Houses of _CHancery_, both in Terms and in Vacations. _Coke's Rep._ 3 _Par. in Proaemio_. > > ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 29 21:53:03 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:53:03 -0500 Subject: Sugar in/on Snow (Vermont food/festival term) Message-ID: I'm working on "sugar on/in snow," a Vermont term. What does DARE have? The American memory database turns up this as the best/only hit. I'll discuss the NEW YORK TIMES hits later: American Life Histories: Manuscripts from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1940 [Sugar Bush Farmer] --------------------------------------------------------------- ORIGINAL MSS. OR FIELD NOTES (Check one) PUB. Living Lore in New England (Vermont) TITLE Sugar Bush Farmer {Begin handwritten} # 2 {End handwritten} WRITER {Begin handwritten} [??] {End handwritten} DATE WDS. pp. 20 THE VERMONT FARMER The Sugar Bush The sugar season is about over. It has been short and sweet this year, but Ezra is satisfied. There have been three excellent runs when the ground has frozen at night and the cold frost fingers have clutched at the flow in the huge maple trees and stalled the rising sap; and the warm spring sun has loosened the paralyzing grasp and the sticky sweetness has risen to drop, drop, drop with tiny splashings making a chorus in the still reaches of the arched woods. One night a wild wind rose and brought with it marching myriads of {Begin deleted text} sugar {End deleted text} snow {Begin inserted text} {Begin handwritten} flakes {End handwritten} {End inserted text} {Begin deleted text} in {End deleted text} a plump white army. It thickened and clung, coating all with {Begin deleted text} sticky flakes {End deleted text} {Begin inserted text} {Begin handwritten} crystals {End handwritten} {End inserted text} . It was a good sign and was fulfilled by a fine run the next day. Ezra always chuckled when he thought of sugar snow. The first time they had mentioned it to Bobby, the child had been fascinated. A little later they had found him in the yard, head up-tilted and small mouth wide, catching the big flakes and savoring them with a puzzled expression on his round features. His disgust was deep and resentful when he found "it wasn't even sweet" and Ezra made it up to him with an extra sugar cake. The women have their place in sugarin'. They prepare the extra meals and hearty lunches which must go to the sugar house when a run is on. Many nights Ed and Ezra have stayed there tending the fire and keeping up with the gathering sap. There is a couch where they took turns catching cat naps. Then, too, the women folk have full charge of the stirrin'-off and -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {Page image} {Begin page no. 18} making of the fancy sugar cakes. When the men think they have about the best run of sap, that which will make up the lightest sugar cakes, they pass the word along and Ma calls a "stirrin'-off bee." All the women gather at the sugar house armed with huge spoons and milk pans. There is a long bench against one wall and there they stand in a busy row, tongues wagging against the clatter of spoon on pan, and beat, beat, beat; the heavy amber syrup smooths to creamy thick stuff which must be poured at exactly the right moment into the ranks of tin molds which are waiting ready. A little is stirred off earlier, before the syrup gets too thick, to make Ma some maple cream. She always celebrates the sugar season with a beautiful maple cake, frosted with maple cream and bursting with butternuts. The sugar cakes stand all night to cool and next morning Ma and Marthy spend a while wrapping and packing them in neat boxes. Ezra, through the years, has worked up a personal market for both syrup and sugar cakes. He packs, boxes, or cans his products according to their individual needs and sends them direct to the customer. His products are good and his list grows as friend tells friend from year to year. Some years he has barely enough to fill his standing orders and other years, when the run is a record breaker, he has extra which he sells in bulk to the sugar-candy manufacturers. Ma always bottles up several gallons of syrup and saves a wooden pail of maple cream. If the kids get an urge that they want sugar cakes, Ma puts a pan of syrup on the stove and boils off a -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {Page image} {Begin page} few for them. When the children were growing up, every year saw sugar parties when the young fry gathered in the sugar house and fed on syrup-on-snow, pickles, raised doughnuts and coffee. The boys would get great pans of snow from some leeward bank where the crystals were almost like little bits of ice. They would pack it down flat and when the syrup was the right consistency a clever artist made fancy figures, waving the great spoon in grandiose gestures. As the syrup hit the snow it congealed into a sticky chewy mass. When the boys and girls had eaten all they could, they chewed pickles to get the sweet out of their mouths and then began again. After everyone was saturated they played games. 'Twas a "sweet" party, so they played kissin' games to keep it consistent. The kissin' games are gone now. They live only in the memories of the older folks. There was "Copenhagen," "Through the Needle's Eye," and "Through the Cedar Swamp." Ezra can remember these and thoughts of them raise a nostalgia in his heart for the days long gone by, for his "folks" and the companions with whom he went to school-- Sugarin' is over. (...) ...the faded sad reminders of a past season. He must hurry if he is to get the sugar buckets washed and dried and stacked neatly away in the bucket house. Ma may come over once more to "redd' up" the sugar house, but most of her contribution to the work of sugaring is over. (...) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 29 22:28:13 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:28:13 -0500 Subject: A "Moot" Point (1717) In-Reply-To: <62670401.70290457.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A LAW DICTIONARY AND GLOSSARY, INTERPRETING SUCH DIFFICULT AND OBSCURE > WORDS AND TERMS, AS ARE FOUND EITHER IN OUR COMMON STATUTE, ANCIENT OR > MODERN LAWS by Tho. Blount The Third Edition In the SAVOY: Printed by > Eliz. Nutt, and R. Gosling 1717 > > where _Moot-Cases_ were argued, was anciently called a _Moot-Hall_, from > > ("Moot Court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788--ed.) Note that the OED records "moot case" back to the 16th century. I agree that "moot court" was probably not coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1788. I don't think anyone ever said it was. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcavila at UNT.EDU Wed Oct 30 01:28:56 2002 From: pcavila at UNT.EDU (Patricia Cukor-Avila) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:28:56 -0600 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? Message-ID: To ADS-L readers, I don't normally post long messages to this list, but in light of the fact that the news piece from WOAI on the accent discrimination study done at UNT is rampant with errors and misrepresents the research that Dianne Markley and I did, I felt I needed to set the record straight. I've had a long conversation with Dianne, who was interviewed for this piece, and I asked her to make some comments - I've pasted them below. Briefly, here are some clarifications about the research: 1. The hiring managers who were the respondents for the study were NOT all men - the 10 subjects for the study were men. Our study can only speak to how men were perceived by male and female hiring managers. As Dianne mentions, the next phase of the research will study how women with various regional accents are perceived by BOTH men and women who are in hiring positions. 2. This research does NOT measure (nor makes any suggestions about) the influence of the speech/accents of public figures, politicians, or Hollywood idols on the subjective reactions of our respondents. 3. We have no idea (and our research doesn't measure) whether having a Texas accent was viewed as positive in the 60s, and furthermore, if John Wayne's accent had anything to do with how Texans were perceived. This goes for the ridiculous statement that was made about the 80s and influence of the TV show Dallas. 4. The article leads readers to believe that our research shows that if you have a Texas accent then your chances of being hired are greater than if you don't have a Texas accent. This is a gross overgeneralization. What this phase of the research SUGGESTS is that if the hiring manager is Texan, self-reports that he/she has a Texas accent and likes that accent, recognizes the accent of the subject as being Texan, then that person will rate the Texan highest overall. We don't have enough data from hiring managers from other regions to determine if this would be the case for say someone from Boston interviewing a fellow Bostonian. Below are Dianne's comments: Tricia, Well, it looks like that reporter from San Antonio had a definite agenda - and our research wasn't it! He interviewed me on tape for a radio news show. The interview was NOT like what is portrayed in the article. It seems that he took his own questions and comments - which he sometimes did not get me to react to like he wanted - and pretended these were quotes from me. When he asked about the Sopranos, I intentionally danced around the subject because I did not want him to be able to say I said anything about a particular show! To be honest, I have never seen The Sopranos and was only reacting to his description of the show - he makes it seem as if I came up with it. For the record, here is how it actually went: He asked questions about the study, and everything was fine. But then, he asked if regional accents were going away - a general question rather than one about our study. I told him that no research that I knew of supported the theory that accents were going away. He asked why I thought that was - and I said that there was no way to know exactly why, but perhaps it was a reaction intended to pull back our individual identities. He then asked if having a Texas President in the White house would make a difference in how a Texas accent would be perceived. I explained that our leaders may have an influence in our perceptions about what particular pronunciation are acceptable at any given time - but that changes and was NOT the case with the Texas respondents in our study, since this research has been going on since before Bush was President. He then asked about the show "The Sopranos" and whether or not the media influenced our thinking. I said that the media has always had a tendency to portray certain stereotypical traits with certain regional accents - the dumb southern Sheriff and the New York/New Jersey gangster, for example - but that we did not know if the influence came from the media or if the media was just reflecting an opinion that came from somewhere else. That was the end of the interview and I had to insist that he let me say one more thing - that the purpose of publicizing the research was not to make people self conscious about their accents - but to make hiring managers aware of a hidden bias that may be influencing their decisions to hire or not to hire. That was it. The whole thing took less than 3 minutes. I think I will call him and let him know how much I dislike being misquoted - and in such a stupid way! ____________ Such are the perils of granting interviews about our research. Patricia Cukor-Avila, Chair Linguistics Division University of North Texas Department of English P.O. Box 311307 Denton, TX 76203-1307 pcavila at unt.edu (940) 565-4577 (office) (940) 565-4355 (fax) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 02:26:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:26:31 -0500 Subject: Sugar on Snow (1951); Tri-Tip Sandwich (1990) Message-ID: FOOD FESTIVALS (1997) by Barbara Carlson is a vastly superior book to FOOD FESTIVALS USA (2002). Yes, the latter has a recipe for each festival and I suppose that was the selling point, but who needs recipes anymore when it's all on the web? FOOD FESTIVALS includes three New York City festivals that the newer book just couldn't find: Ninth Avenue International Food Festival, West Indian-American Carnival, and Feast of San Gennaro. There is a short glossary, a selected bibliography, a cook-offs and recipe contents index, a date index, a food type index, and a general index. I'll try to antedate everything (if I haven't already), but here's the glossary: Aebelskiver; Andouille; Beef on Weck (pronounced wick); Blooming Onions; Booya; Boudin; Bratwurst; Brunswick Stew; Buffalo Chicken Wings; Burgoo; Burrito; Cheese Curds, Fried; Chiles Rellenos; Chitlins; Chorizo; Crawfish; Dirty Rice; Enchiladas; Etouffee; Fajitas; Fried Pie; Fry Bread; Funnel Cake; Geoduck (pronounced gooey-duck); Gordita; Grits; Gumbo; Gyros; Hush Puppies; Indian Tacos; Jambalaya; Jerk Chicken; Kielbasa; Kolache; Lefse; Linguic; Lutefisk; Mayhaw; Pemmican; Pierogi; Po' Boy; Quahog; Ramp; Red-eye Gravy; Rocky Mountain Oyster; Rotis; Sauce Piquante; Snitz; Sonker; Spiedie; Steamers; ... (Last two items below--ed.) Pg. 396: _Sugar on Snow:_ A taffy-like confection made by pouring maple syrup onto snow after the sap has been boiled past the syrup stage. A standard at "sugaring" festivals when maples are tapped. See Vermont Maple Festival, St. Albans, VT. _Tri-Tip Sandwich:_ A triangular cut of sirloin tip, seasoned and roasted over high heat, eaten as a sandwich. Popular festival fare in central California. See Big Hat Festival, Clovis, CA. --------------------------------------------------------------- SUGAR ON SNOW 12 August 1951, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 95: The annual Maple Sugar on Snow Party is scheduled for Aug. 22 at Barton;... 8 May 1955, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX9: _VERMONT_ (...) _Sugar on Snow Parties:_ Morgan, July 16; Canaan, Aug. 1-6; Barton Village (on the Common), Aug. 11. 6 April 1958, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. X19: Other program events include demonstrations of syrup and sugar making, maple creaming and sugar on snow. 31 January 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. BR26: _Books for Younger Readers_ SUGAR ON SNOW. By Nancy Dingman Watson. Illustrated by Aldren A. Watson. 43 pp. New York: The Viking Press. $3. For Ages 3 to 6. TWO things are needed if Cammie is to have a sugar on snow party for her birthday: The sap ("when it's cold from winter and sweet from spring") has to be running in the maples, and there has to be a new fallen cover of snow. --------------------------------------------------------------- TRI-TIP SANDWICH "Tri-tip sandwich" is not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999). No hits on the NEW YORK TIMES database?! There are 80 hits on the Dow Jones database. All of the earliest hits are from the LOS ANGELES TIMES, starting with 7-19-1990. Unfortunately, full text for that is not available. (What a tease!--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 04:31:43 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:31:43 -0500 Subject: Iced Coffee (1842); Sugar on Snow (1949); Chicken Pie Supper (1936) Message-ID: ICED COFFEE SKETCHES OF FOREIGN TRAVEL AND LIFE AT SEA by Charles Rockwell In Two Volumes Boston: Tappan and Dennet 1842 VOLUME ONE Pg. 138: We were soon on excellent terms, and, stopping at the first village we came to, he sent in his servant and ordered two tumblers of iced coffee, which was truly refreshing. On reaching Naples... (OED has 1879 for "iced coffee"...Forget paying the rent. Antedating "espresso," "cappuccino," "caffe latte" and "iced coffee" doesn't even get me a single cup at Starbucks--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHICKENS/TERRAPINS A LA MARYLAND A NEW YORK TIMES check shows "Terrapins a la Maryland" on 21 July 1884, pg. 5. "Chicken a la Maryland" is in the early 1900s. I can check my TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY issues, but maybe later. --------------------------------------------------------------- SUGAR ON SNOW Sorry, but I left off the first citation page that I had copied. 27 March 1949, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. BR26: Best of all was the "Sugar on Snow" party held in Mrs. Polly's kitchen in the month of March. First she and the children tapped her maple trees, then she cooked the sap into syrup, and finally the children gathered bowls of "clean snow," over which Mrs. Polly poured hot syrup and "turned it into sweet, delicious, golden brown candy." (From a review of the children's book MRS. POLLY'S PARTY--ed.) --------------------------------------------------------------- CHICKEN PIE SUPPER The NYPL has an index to THE VERMONTER. There was nothing special for the "sugar on snow" item above, but it had this local dish. There are about 100 web hits for "chicken pie supper" and "Vermont." Maybe this gets me invited to David Mamet's place? From THE VERMONTER, August-September 1936, pg. 175, col. 2: _CHICKEN PIE SUPPERS_ By J. R. WHIPPLE THE season for chicken-pie suppers will soon be here and we look forward with a great deal of pleasure to that ancient and honorable rural institution which still maintains its well-deserved popularity in the smaller towns of Vermont in spite of the automobile, the movies and the radio. Chicken-pie suppers are one of the few old relics of by-gone days that still exist. Our covered bridges and many of our fine old colonial mansions are disappearing so rapidly that photographers are busy recording the few survivors for posterity. The oxen are few and the horse is fast becoming extinct as a draught animal. Yet the good old chicken-pie suppers, praise be, still remain to give folk in the most remote sections of the country-side an opportunity to exercise their rights as gregarious beings. Every year, since my wife and I have lived in Vermont, we have become "chicken-pie supper attenders." It has now become akin to a mania with us. Any time after the middle of August we being to peruse the papers carefully to see if, by any chance, some village church within a radius of forty miles has become autumn-minded enough to put on the first chicken-pie supper. When one is spotted, there is great joy in the household. Dietary discretion is completely abandoned and we make haste to drive to that supper regardless of what other engagements for that particular evening we may have had. Why "supper" is used to designate this meal I never could understand. One does not "sup" at a chicken-pie supper; one dines royally, in fact stuffs oneself shamefully with a variety of delicious country fare that would put the repast of an English squire to shame. As soon speak of having "lunch" on Thanksgiving Day. I make a fervent plea for the immortality of the chicken-pie supper. From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Wed Oct 30 07:07:41 2002 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 02:07:41 -0500 Subject: No "there there" Message-ID: The following snippet from Slate.com seems peculiar: The sound bites "didn't raise any flags," AP Senior Vice President Jonathan Wolman told the Washington Post, because none of them were "very snappy or snazzy." In other words, nobody thought to dispute the AP quotations because there was no "there there" to dispute. http://slate.msn.com/?id=2073304 It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or is there something else going on here that I'm missing? Best, Don _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 30 08:10:31 2002 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:10:31 EST Subject: Crips, Bloods & Food; Sonkers; Chicken Pie Supper (1927) Message-ID: CRIPS, BLOODS & FOOD From NEW YORK PRESS, October 30-November 5, 2002, cover story: _BLOOD IN, BLOOD OUT_ _Bronx Gang Members Explain Their Creed_ (...) (Pg. 10, col. 2--ed.) Besides the wearing of the red, some Bloods will have a triangular three-dot tattoo (a dog's paw). Blood affiliates called O31s sign with their thumb and forefinger making an O, the other three fingers held together, the hand on the stomach. The New York City Dept. of Corrections has online gang information that claims that the name the Bloods came from the rite of passage called "Blood in, blood out." A Blood told me, "THat's not where the name comes from. But we do say, 'Blood in, blood out.'" "Blood in" means a new member with no ranking or respect has to "walk the line" abd take a beating from gang members. Or it can mean a new member has to go out and spill a non-Blood's blood. "Blood out" means you leave the gang when you die. (...) (Col. 4--ed.) "The Crips attract sick kids," he went on. "They're sneaky and attack in packs. We say that Crips stands for--'Cowards Run In Packs.'" (...) Some think one of the OGs (Original Gangsters--ed.) of the Crips was in fact a cripple. Another version is that Crip is short for Kryptonite. "Nah, man, that's all bullshit." one Blood told me, waving his hand. "Crips stands for 'Christ Rest In Peace.'" (...) Bloods can be deadly. (...) "You cross me, you're food," one told me. "Food means you're eaten. Dead." (A depressing addition to food slang--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CHICKEN PIE SUPPER There are quite a few NEW YORK TIMES hits, and almost all are from Vermont. 18 September 1927, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. X10: _OLD HOME DAYS CLOSE WITH_ _AUCTIONS AND CHICKEN PIES._ (...) There will be chicken pie suppers, which reach their zenith during the effulgence of the harvest moon. OCLC WorldCat has one 1904 hit of "Four stanzas of poetry advertising a public supper," in possession of the Connecticut Historical Society: THE GILEAD CHICKEN-PIE SUPPER WILL BE HELD WEDNESDAY EVENING, OCT. 26, '04, AT THE HOUSE OF H. E. BUELL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SONKERS Does this make the next DARE or not? From FOOD FESTIVALS (1997) by Barbara Carlson, Glossary pg. 395: _Sonker:_A deep-dish pie with fruit or sweet-potato filling, sometimes served with a sauce of milk, sugar, and vanilla. See Sonker Festival, Mount Airy, NC. There are only 32 hits on Google. None of my books here mention it. The festival is held the first week in October. The festival has some years on it now, but, IMHO, the "sonker" hasn't yet achieved "fried twinkie" status. >From Pg. 169: Sonkers are a rarity in North Carolina other than in the remote mountains and hallows around Mount Airy, where the culture has been retained. The festival began in 1984, and they still haven't agreed on the best sonker recipe, so you're on your own. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 30 12:06:53 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:06:53 -0500 Subject: No "there there" In-Reply-To: <00cc01c27fe3$0964cd20$0101a8c0@billionbridges1> Message-ID: yOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote: > It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" > there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or > is there something else going on here that I'm missing? Gertrude Stein wrote "there is no there there," so Slate is quoting her correctly. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Oct 30 12:10:27 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:10:27 -0500 Subject: FW: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: Herb S said, re "thrilla in Manila" (Cosell pronunciation) : >> Rather than doggerel, this sounds much more like rap, a form Ali was skilled at. << I humbly beg to differ. Ali was noted -- from the early 60s, when he debuted on the scene -- as a composer of doggerel. This is WAY before rap. There are many examples from his "oeuvre", dating back to the heavy media coverage of his first fight with Sonny Liston, 1964, when he first won the heavyweight crown. I believe that his famous "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" dates back to the first Liston fight. [IMHO aside (ahem): I remember all this vividly and personally, as I am a huge fan of Ali, as an athlete and a person. He IS the greatest athlete of all time, bar none, hands down, story over. Ali is also one of the most significant figures in the American history of the latter half of the 20th cent. Another near the top of MY list for that period is Nixon, but unlike Nixon, Ali was on the good side of "significant". As with baseball, if one does not study and understand the phenomena surrounding Ali and Nixon, one does not know what present-day America is about.] Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually already losing his ability to speak. Ali may have been a **model** for rappers, but he was not one himself, at least not in the usual sense. He was sort of a precursor of rap. Frank Abate > > Does anyone know whether "thriller in Manila" was coined by Ali himself or > > was a slogan cooked up by promoters? > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > As written up in F. Dennis & D Atyeo _Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years_ (2002) > p. 242, the line seems to have come from Ali's pre-fight doggerel, first > delivered at a press conference in Malaysia: > > It will be a killer > And a chiller > And a thrilla > When I get the gorilla > In Manila. > > That the fight poster featured "A Thrilla in Manila" (quotes as printed on > the poster) may be taken to back this up. > > Jonathon Green > From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Oct 30 14:19:57 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:19:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: LAVIS III - Call for papers Message-ID: Forwarded on behalf of Mike Picone ----- Forwarded message from "Michael D. Picone" ----- LAVIS III Language Variety in the South: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives Co-Organizers: Michael D. Picone and Catherine Evans Davies, University of Alabama CALL FOR PAPERS LAVIS III, Language Variety in the South: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives, a symposium, will be held at the University of Alabama, in Tuscaloosa, April 15-17, 2004. Plenary Speakers for LAVIS III - Michael Montgomery (U South Carolina Columbia) - John Lipski (Penn State) - Guy Bailey (U Texas at San Antonio) - Pamela Munro (UCLA) Sessions for LAVIS III. As currently envisioned LAVIS III will have fourteen planned sessions, with additional sessions to be added as appropriate from submitted abstracts. - Indigenous Languages - Endangered Languages & Dialects - Links to the Caribbean - Earlier Englishes of the South (Southern American English or African American English or any other variety) - English in the Contemporary South - Perception (in relation to any dialect of the South) - African American English Issues - Quantitative Methodologies - Discourse and Southern American English - Language and the Schools (oriented towards K-12 teachers) - Latino Language Issues - Southern English and the Public Interest (dialect awareness programs for the general public, language and the media, linguistic profiling, forensic linguistics, etc.) - Language and the Arts in the South (literature, film, song, etc.) - New Approaches and Broader Horizons Pre-Conference Workshops for LAVIS III - The semiotics of Moundville (to be held on-site at the Moundville Archeological Park), Vernon James Knight (U Alabama) - Using the LAGS (Linguistic Atlas of the Gulf States) database For background on LAVIS I and II and the general vision behind LAVIS III, please visit the preliminary website at . The advisory board for LAVIS III is made up of the following scholars: Guy Bailey (U Texas at San Antonio), Cynthia Goldin Bernstein (U Memphis), Barbara Johnstone (Carnegie Mellon), Thomas Klingler (Tulane), William Kretzschmar (U Georgia), Sonja Lanehart (U Georgia), Michael Montgomery (U South Carolina Columbia), Salikoko Mufwene (Chicago), Pamela Munro (UCLA), and Walt Wolfram (North Carolina State). Grant funding for LAVIS III is being sought from various sources including NEH and NSF. Depending upon the success of grant proposals, a limited amount of travel funding may become available. Papers from established and emerging scholars are welcome. Abstracts will be judged anonymously. Abstracts of up to 500 words (plus references), for 20-minute papers, must be submitted electronically to by March 15, 2003. Use MS Word to compose your abstract. In addition to sending your abstract (with title) as an attachment, please paste a copy of the abstract into the body of your e-mail message. If you use phonetic symbols in your abstract, select either Lucinda Sans Unicode (which is included with most applications of MS Word) or SILDoulosIPA (freeware available from SIL) as your IPA font. Your name, affiliation, and current contact information must be included in your e-mail message but should not appear in the attached abstract. In your e-mail message, please also include an indication of your equipment requirements for your proposed presentation. The University of Alabama Press will be publishing a refereed volume of papers from the conference. The conference organizers, Michael D. Picone and Catherine Evans Davies, will serve as co-editors and will provide timely information on style and deadlines in order to expedite the publishing process. LAVIS III will take place concurrently with the seventieth meeting of the Southeastern Conference on Linguistics (SECOL LXX). At a later date, there will be a separate call for papers for SECOL LXX. Michael D. Picone Dept. of Modern Languages & Classics University of Alabama picone at ua.edu Catherine Evans Davies University of Alabama Dept. of English cdavies at bama.ua.edu Michael D. Picone The University of Alabama Box 870246 Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0246 USA phone: (205) 348-8473 fax: (205) 348-2042 e-mail: mpicone at bama.ua.edu URL: http://bama.ua.edu/~mpicone ----- End forwarded message ----- From mam at THEWORLD.COM Wed Oct 30 14:47:12 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:47:12 -0500 Subject: "accent prejudice" favors Texans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Patricia Cukor-Avila wrote: #Below are Dianne's comments: #less than 3 minutes. I think I will call him and let him know how #much I dislike being misquoted - and in such a stupid way! How about writing to his bosses?! -- Mark A. Mandel From dave at WILTON.NET Wed Oct 30 16:21:09 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:21:09 -0800 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. > In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was > ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto > the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually > already losing his ability to speak. Actually, rap has its origins in the mid-to-late 70s. Rap DJs began playing dance parties around 1974-75 and started gaining local notoriety. The first big commercial rap success was the 1979 album "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugar Hill Gang. But I don't think this changes the basic point; I've never heard anyone associate Ali with rap either. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Oct 30 17:33:20 2002 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:33:20 -0400 Subject: ILA-call for papers Message-ID: The International Linguistic Association (formerly: The Linguistic Circle of New York) will host its annual conference for 2003 at New York Univeristy on April 4,5,6. The theme is Dialects and Dialectology. Visit the following web site and click on Annual Conference for details: http://www.ilaword.org http://www.ilaword.org/ilacall2003.html I L A INTERNATIONAL LINGUISTIC ASSOCIATION 48th ANNUAL CONFERENCE, APRIL 4-6, 2003 NEW YORK UNIVERSITY, NEW YORK, NY Major Theme: DIALECTS and DIALECTOLOGY While papers on that theme are especially solicited, abstracts on any subject in theoretical and applied linguistics will be welcomed. Guest speakers: Walt Wolfram (University of North Carolina) Joan Hall, editor in chief of the Dictionary of American Regional English Single-spaced, anonymous abstracts of not more than 425 words should clearly state the problems addressed, or research questions, and some indication of results or conclusions. Send via e-mail to the conference coordinator, preferably as an attachment, with (separately) name, title of paper, addresses, affiliation,and audio-visual equipment needed. Simultaneously, send to the coordinator, via snail mail, and in a size 10 (4 1/8*9 1/2) envelope, 1 hardcopy of the abstract, for editing and verification purposes. Those wishing to propose panels, or special sessions, etc., should contact the program chair. Time allotted will be 20 minutes for delivery of the paper plus 5 minutes discussion. Deadline for receipt of abstracts is January 15, 2003 Local host: John R. Costello (e-mail:john.costello at nyu.edu). Program Chair: David K.Barnhart (e-mail:Barnhart at Highlands.com). Conference Coordinator: Johanna J. Woltjer (e-mail:jwoltjer at earthlink.net). 511 West 112 Street # 14 New York, NY 10025-1634, USA e-mail: jwoltjer at earthlink.net Tel. (212) 749-3366 The ILA-WORD website will provide continuous information concerning conference arrangements, etc.: www.ilaword.org From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 30 21:45:33 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:45:33 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: I used the wrong term. Rap, particularly as a commercial art form, started up well after Ali developed his reputation for extemporaneous verse. However, Ali's poetry and rap have common roots in folk poetry that Ali's may actually have been closer to. As a verb, "rap" certainly goes back farther than the art form. I remember it from civil rights marches in the '60s, and Thomas Kochman edited a collection in 1972 titled Rappin' and Stylin' Out. Herb > > Anyway, Ali's doggerel pre-dates rap by quite a few years. > > In fact, I do not recall hearing at any time that Ali was > > ever associated with rap. By the time rap made it onto > > the American scene (early 80s or so), Ali was actually > > already losing his ability to speak. > > Actually, rap has its origins in the mid-to-late 70s. Rap DJs began playing > dance parties around 1974-75 and started gaining local notoriety. The first > big commercial rap success was the 1979 album "Rapper's Delight" by the > Sugar Hill Gang. But I don't think this changes the basic point; I've never > heard anyone associate Ali with rap either. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 00:43:08 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:43:08 -0500 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland In-Reply-To: <253463AF.6D6F88A4.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:31 PM -0500 10/29/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >CHICKENS/TERRAPINS A LA MARYLAND > > A NEW YORK TIMES check shows "Terrapins a la Maryland" on 21 July >1884, pg. 5. "Chicken a la Maryland" is in the early 1900s. I can >check my TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY issues, but maybe later. > This does open up a great idea for a theme cookbook with somewhat fewer than 50 recipes, including those for... Wildcat a la Arizona Razorbacks a la Arkansas Golden bears a la California Buffalo a la Colorado Blue hens a la Delaware Gators a la Florida Jayhawks a la Kansas Wildcat a la Kentucky (different preparation from first entry) Terrapins a la Maryland Wolverine a la Michigan Tiger a la Missouri Duck a l'Oregon Ram a la Rhode Island Longhorn a la Texas Badger a la Wisconsin Only some of these species are endangered, and I've omitted the entries for bulldogs and huskies (as well as those for mountaineers, cowboys, cavaliers, minutemen, hoosiers, etc.) to spare sensibilities. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 00:51:36 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:51:36 -0500 Subject: No "there there" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:06 AM -0500 10/30/02, Fred Shapiro wrote: >yOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote: > >> It seems to me that it should read: '...there was no "there" >> there.' Or is the writer quoting Jonathan Wolman? Or >> is there something else going on here that I'm missing? > >Gertrude Stein wrote "there is no there there," so Slate is quoting her >correctly. > >Fred Shapiro > Referring to Oakland, her hometown, and how it was unrecognizable when she returned home. (It's usually been reinterpreted to refer to a place with no intrinsic content or interest.) Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 31 02:59:52 2002 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:59:52 -0800 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland Message-ID: larry horn lists a number of possible (but possibly dubious) state delicacies, but sticks to the animal kingdom. though i have submitted to the charms of the west coast, i have to note Buckeyes a l'Ohio [for safety's sake, i'd use chestnuts. well, there are those chocolate-stuffed-with-peanut-butter buckeyes...] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 31 02:55:16 2002 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:55:16 -0600 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: The back of a U.S. dollar bill has two circles; I never paid much attention to the contents of the one on the left, but today I was asked about them: 1) What does the pyramid symbolize? 2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason detached from it)? 3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? 4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? I'd be grateful for any clarification. Gerald Cohen From patty at CRUZIO.COM Thu Oct 31 03:37:54 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:37:54 -0800 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Hi folks: I found an interesting sentence in the Oct. issue of Self magazine (health, fitness, fashion), has the term above. It is in a feature article where each page has a couple sentences Setting the Scene, an accompanying picture and a couple paragraphs how to achieve The Effect or The Look. So, some fashion and cosmetics advertising. I looked on Google and there were no hits for 'circulation-goosing'. I am wondering if '-goosing' is being appended to various words? Here is the sentence: If your A.M. problem is undereye circles: ......smooths and brightens with vitamin C and circulation-goosing caffeine -- it's like breakfast for your face. Another one I noticed lately is "canoodling", read it in several places in celebrity gossip magazines. It seems to mean Making Out in Restaurants as in Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez have been spotted canoodling from the East Coast to the West. From various mags at the beauty shop :} Wow - just looked it up on Google and canoodling gets 3,690 hits. Well, the mags I looked at all used canoodling in sentences like mine but there must be other defs for it. From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Oct 31 03:41:57 2002 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:41:57 -0600 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The back of a U.S. dollar bill has two circles; I never paid much >attention to the contents of the one on the left, but today I was >asked about them: > >1) What does the pyramid symbolize? >2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the >triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason >detached from it)? >3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? >4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It >looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? > > I'd be grateful for any clarification. > >Gerald Cohen From the Bureau of Printing and Engraving webpage The two circles are the Great Seal. The one you have questions about is described below: The reverse, sometimes referred to as the spiritual side of the seal, contains the 13-step pyramid with the year 1776 in Roman numerals on the base. At the summit of the pyramid is the Eye of Providence in a triangle surrounded by a Glory (rays of light) and above it appears the motto Annuit Coeptis, or "He (God) has favored our undertakings." Along the lower circumference of the design appear the words Novus Ordo Seclorum, or "A new order of the ages," heralding the beginning of the new American era in 1776. If you are interested in a more detailed history of the Great Seal of the United States, you should contact the U.S. Department of State directly. http://www.bep.treas.gov/document.cfm/18/120 My understanding is that at least some of this symbolism is Masonic. Barbara From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 31 04:09:45 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:09:45 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >1) What does the pyramid symbolize? >2) What is the symbolism of the eye in the triangle (with the >triangle seemingly being the top of the pyramid but for some reason >detached from it)? >3) What exactly does the Latin "Annuit Coeptis" mean? >4) What exactly is the meaning of the Latin "Novus Ordo Seclorum"? It >looks like "New Order of the Ages," but what exactly does this mean? (1) Probably the construction of a durable edifice (i.e., the nation). (2) Apparently Providence, or God, watching over the undertaking. (3) "Annuit coeptis" -- apparently following Virgil -- means "[He/it] assents-to/looks-favorably-upon [the] undertaking". (4) Also apparently based on a line from Virgil: alternate glosses would include "series" for "order", "centuries" or "generations" for "ages". So I think the idea is "a new [long] epoch" or so. Here is a brief summary which agrees with other things I've seen. This addresses the story about Masonic influences. http://www.cix.co.uk/~craftings/doll.htm I deny any expertise. -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Thu Oct 31 04:15:38 2002 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:15:38 EST Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: The following is from an NIH website for children -- http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/triviadollar.htm: National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences National Institutes of Health (NIH) Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) Jokes! NIEHS Kids' Pages Index Understanding the Design and Symbolism of the U.S. One Dollar Bill Although symbols are open to many interpretations, we believe the following information offers some historical insight (and some undocumented perceptions) about the design and meaning of some of the images on the one dollar bill. The explanations and interpretations that appear below were verified by the Truth or Fiction website, and predominantly (except where noted otherwise) reflect the official interpretations of the United States Treasury Department and the United States Department of State, the official keeper of the United States Seal. . . . If you turn the bill over, you will see two circles. The two circles reflect the two sides of the Great Seal of the United States. Before the adjournment of the Continental Congress on July 4th, 1776, a committee was appointed to develop a seal for the United States. The committee was Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, three of the five men who had drafted the Declaration of Independence. They were merely the first committee, however. It took six years, the work of two additional committees and a total of 14 men before a final version of the Great Seal was approved. The final proposal, as accepted by Congress, was submitted on June 13, 1782, by Charles Thompson, Secretary of Congress. He brought together some of the recommendations of the three committees, their consultants, and artists. If you look at the left hand circle, you will see a Pyramid. This pyramid was not a part of the proposals for the Great Seal until the third committee, and it was not suggested by Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams. Notice the face is lighted and the western side is dark. Although there is no "official" explanation for the shading, some interpret it as a reflection that our country was just beginning and had not begun to explore the West or decided what we could do for Western Civilization. The Pyramid is UN-capped, which may signify that our country was not yet finished. The unfinished state of the pyramid was intentional, and Charles Thompson, in his remarks to congress about the symbolism on the Great Seal, said the pyramid represented "Strength and Duration." Inside the capstone you have the all-seeing eye, and ancient symbol for divinity. Although Franklin's committee did not suggest a pyramid, it did originate the suggestion of the eye. However, the term "the all-seeing eye" was never officially used when describing it. The Franklin committee wanted the seal to include a reflection of divine providence and discussed a variety of themes including the Children of Israel in the Wilderness. Some have suggested that the pyramid and the eye are the result of Masonic influence, but that is not supported by historical evidence. The claim that "the all seeing eye" is uniquely Masonic first appeared in 1797, nearly 15 years after the adoption of the symbolism by Congress. In addition, the only member of the original committee who was a Mason was Franklin; that committee's design was actually rejected by Congress, and none of the final designers of the seal were Masons. The eye as representing "the eye of providence" has a long history. It's more likely that both the designers of the Great Seal and the Masons drew from that history. "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on this currency. The Latin above the pyramid, ANNUIT COEPTIS, means "God has favored our undertaking." It was Franklin's belief that one man couldn't do it alone, but a group of men with the help of God could do anything. The Latin below the pyramid, NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM, actually means "a new order for the ages." At the base of the pyramid is the Roman Numeral for 1776. Steve Boatti From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 31 04:17:53 2002 From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:17:53 -0500 Subject: go-to-hell hat Message-ID: I have a soft, floppy hat with about a two-inch brim that goes all the way around. I've heard it referred to here in Central Indiana and in SW Ontario as a "go-to-hell hat". I searched that phrase on Google and got 30 hits, several of which associated that style hat with the military, especially during the Gulf War. There were also some soft floppy hats shown that didn't look like the same design. How wide-spread is this term? Any information on its origins? Herb Stahlke From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 04:41:35 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:41:35 -0500 Subject: go-to-hell hat In-Reply-To: <000b01c28094$7ce08800$1c15fea9@ibm15259> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 11:17:53PM -0500, Herbert Stahlke wrote: > I have a soft, floppy hat with about a two-inch brim that goes all the way > around. I've heard it referred to here in > Central Indiana and in SW Ontario as a "go-to-hell hat". I searched that > phrase on Google and got 30 hits, several of which associated that style hat > with the military, especially during the Gulf War. There were also some > soft floppy hats shown that didn't look like the same design. How > wide-spread is this term? Any information on its origins? HDAS has examples to 1921 in the sense 'an overseas or garrison cap' (1918 in the form _go-to-hell cap_), and 1966 in the sense 'a wide- brimmed jungle hat'. There are examples of _go-to-hell_ modifying other articles of clothing thought to be 'jaunty, nonchalant, or extreme in style' from 1937 onwards. Jesse Sheidlower OED From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 07:15:58 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:15:58 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill Message-ID: *Novus ordo seclorum* does mean "The new order of the ages." I assume it refers to the new democracy. *Annuit coeptis* means "He [God] has looked with favor upon our [America's] beginning." Said to be adapted from a passage in Vergil's *Aeneid*. I don't know about the pictorial symbols; I'm sure there's some Web site where they're explained. --Dodi Schultz From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 07:15:59 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:15:59 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. To *goose* is to stimulate, boost, goad, urge to action, etc. I believe it's been in general slang/informal use in the U.S. for some time. It can be applied to circulation or anything or anyone where it seems to fit. To *canoodle*--both AE and BE and dating from the mid-19th century--is to kiss and cuddle (to engage in what was known a couple of generations back as "necking" or "petting" and subsequently as "making out"). It need not take place in an eating establishment. --Dodi Schultz From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Oct 31 12:36:26 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:36:26 -0500 Subject: Terrapins a la Maryland In-Reply-To: <200210310259.g9V2xpM22891@Turing.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: >arnold, I'm sure you know that outside Ohio buckeyes are generally know as "horse chestnuts." We knew not to eat them. dInIs >larry horn lists a number of possible (but possibly dubious) >state delicacies, but sticks to the animal kingdom. though i >have submitted to the charms of the west coast, i have to note > Buckeyes a l'Ohio >[for safety's sake, i'd use chestnuts. well, there are those >chocolate-stuffed-with-peanut-butter buckeyes...] > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Thu Oct 31 13:12:25 2002 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:12:25 -0000 Subject: Ali/Rap Message-ID: [This seems to have returned itself at first sending to Dave Wilton, in error. My apologies to him] While rap qua rap, or at least hiphop, as it was first known, does indeed begin in the mid-late '70s, the ethos that underpins it, whether in the form of verbal games, male braggadocio or social commentary (which is there, however much some of the language, especially of 'gangsta rap', springs from what one might term the 'epater les parents' school of teenage boy, irrespective of colour) is much older. On the one hand there is the venerable tradition of the ritualised insults that is 'the dirty dozens', which allegedly goes back to slavery; there is the super-macho world of the pimp 'toasts' (narrative poems), which have been recorded from the 1930s-60s; and the social commentary central to the work of such as The Last Poets, who flourished c. 1970. All this before rap, other than a word, was a crackle on an DJ's 'wheels of steel.' I would also agree wholeheartdly with Frank Abate's remarks on Ali and doggerel, although, as the one whose mail (on the 'thrilla in Manila') helped set this discussion in motion, I used 'doggerel' merely as a reasonably pertinent description of the Ali poetic style, rather than as a carefully reasoned critical assessment. And while it might be claimed that Ali's style does have some links to the boasting and challenges that are found in many 'toasts', I don't think that his poems as such can really be seen as founders of modern rap. Jonathon Green From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 31 14:27:42 2002 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:27:42 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North Jersey). Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET Thu Oct 31 14:36:33 2002 From: paul.kusinitz at VERIZON.NET (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:36:33 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: As a child in Newport RI, I remember some of our elder Irish population occasionally referring to it as "Gap Night." Perhaps someday I'll be enlightened about that quaint phrase. Paul Kusinitz ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Keer To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:27 AM Subject: Night before Halloween I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North Jersey). Any others? Ed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:07:45 2002 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:07:45 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:27 AM -0800 10/31/02, Ed Keer wrote: >I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is >called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE >Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My >wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". >I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" >(again, North Jersey). Any others? > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ "Devil's night" around Detroit, if I'm not mistaken. And there's a history that goes with it--a lot more than mischief is involved, unless you're using the much earlier and stronger meaning of the word. Larry From davemarc at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 15:34:11 2002 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:34:11 -0500 Subject: "Wham Bam..." Message-ID: For what it's worth, I think the phrase is defined in Dr. David Reuben's "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex....," published in 1969 (naturally). d. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:59:50 2002 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:59:50 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Detroit - Devil Night. dInIs >I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is >called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE >Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My >wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". >I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" >(again, North Jersey). Any others? > >Ed > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ -- Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic, Asian & African Languages Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 e-mail: preston at msu.edu phone: (517) 353-9290 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 16:59:18 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:59:18 -0500 Subject: Fifth Column (re Ali and rap) Message-ID: Herb Stahlke notes "Thomas Kochman edited a collection in 1972 titled Rappin' and Stylin' Out." The following was published the preceeding year: Stanford, Gene, ed. Generation rap; an athology [sic] about youth and the establishment. Edited, with an introduction by Gene Stanford. [New York, Dell Pub. Co., 1971] 176 p. 18 cm. (Laurel leaf library.) I cut this title out of the Bobst catalog and suspect that the error in the title was done here, not by the publisher. I do not remember when H. Rap Brown became prominent, but it was no doubt a year or two before. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:12:03 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:12:03 -0500 Subject: lame duck Message-ID: HDAS (under lame duck, 1a, in the sense of a failed stock market grifter) has citations from 1761, 1766, 1771 & 1841, all English; its first U. S. source is 1851; (sense 1b, a general dead-beat starts with 1875). The OED (under duck, 9) adds 1806-07 and 1832, from English sources. Here are two citations from New York newspapers. 1826: A broker sells stock ahead to another broker; the day arrives, he cannot deliver, and he cannot pay the difference; he is called a lame duck, and waddles out of Wall-street for a day or two, and waddles back to his old office and opens shop again. N-Y Enquirer, July 24, 1826, p. 2, col. 2 1837: "'Tis as easy as lying" to make a figure in New York. I will just mention a few plans. Go in to Wall street. Hire the corner of an office, for the brokers occupy offices there as the Irish keep tenants in the Five Points -- every corner of a single room having a whole family, besides boarders and lodgers. *** Buy and sell stocks on time. What next? More. What next? Still more. Do this for a fortnight. Then break. Curse Morris Canal. Walk out a lame duck -- keep the differences -- and thus you can live on $10,000 a year, and be always talking of the "money market," "banks" and "exchanges." The Herald, February 2, 1837, p. 2, col. 3 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:19:17 2002 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:19:17 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission Message-ID: My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near Coney Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her colleagues, including my wife, that she had attended a "Fuckerware" party over the weekend. My wife, not wanting to expose herself as an old codgerette from an era and a region where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not press for details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If there is interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term is new to me. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Oct 31 17:28:12 2002 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The custom of marking the night before Halloween in any way at all is not universal. In the places where I lived when I was trick-or-treating age--So. California and Oregon--kids did their trick-or-treating on Halloween, and the night before was like any other night. However, I do remember as a small child in Oklahoma City being asked by my parents if I wanted to "go with them on Handout Night or Halloween Night." I didn't know who "they" were, didn't have a clue what I was "going with them" to do, and had never heard either word, but I chose "Handout Night" because it sounded somehow friendlier. On the night in question, some friends showed up and we went around the neighborhood with paper sacks knocking on doors and saying "Handout!" whereupon people would drop goodies in our paper bags. I don't think we wore costumes. Peter Mc. --On Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:27 AM -0800 Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 31 17:31:24 2002 From: hollieb98 at YAHOO.COM (Hollie B) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:31:24 -0800 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the night of Halloween? Annie Bush --- Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween > is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie > night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? > > Ed > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Oct 31 17:35:26 2002 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:35:26 -0500 Subject: O.T. Query: back of U.S. one-dollar bill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re the stuff on the US dollar bill (or on any US bill), the best source for authoritative info is the people who make them -- Bureau of Engraving and Printing. Also, the US Mint sells a booklet that explains all this kind of thing. Frank Abate From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 17:36:15 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:36:15 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: Ed Keer asks, >> I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is called in your >> neck of the woods. I grew up in SE Pennsylvania and we called it >> "mischief night". My wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie >> night". I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" (again, North >> Jersey). Any others? I also spent my early childhood in southeastern Pennsylvania; the evening of October 30th was known locally as "Tick-Tack Night." Fred Cassidy, to whom I described it about 20 years ago, said he'd be using the term, so I assume it'll appear in a forthcoming volume of *DARE*. Here's the pertinent quote from my letter to Cassidy: "It wasn't a night for vandalism, but for very specific mischief. One took an ordinary empty wooden spool, cut notches in the flanges at each end, then wound a length of string around the spool. The spool was then held against a window pane, with a long nail through it, and the string was pulled; the startling sound which resulted gave the night its name." --Dodi Schultz From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 31 17:37:40 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:37:40 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? In-Reply-To: <200210310216_MC3-1-184A-505F@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: #Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she #thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. [...] And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of "goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or construction. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at THEWORLD.COM Thu Oct 31 17:42:05 2002 From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:42:05 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031173124.76134.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: #Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the #night of Halloween? # #Annie Bush Same night. Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric 1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. -- Mark A. Mandel From patty at CRUZIO.COM Thu Oct 31 17:58:13 2002 From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:58:13 -0800 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great replies! Mark, the construction explanation was something I was curious about, thanks! Another angle on the canoodling is that I don't recall reading or hearing this word very often in the past. But reading it in sev diff tabloid newspapers, used in the same context and applied to different couples was striking. They all came out around the same time (say 6 weeks ago). There must be some kind of (recent?) history to it being a popular word all of a sudden amongst the columnists or writers. At 12:37 PM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote: > >#Patty Davies asks about the meanings of "goosing" and "canoodling"; she >#thought perhaps the latter referred to goings-on in restaurants. > > [...] > >And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs >NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well >established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of >"goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that >stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or >construction. > >-- Mark A. Mandel From gd2 at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 31 18:06:07 2002 From: gd2 at NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:06:07 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: At 09:58 AM 10/31/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Another angle on the canoodling is that I don't >recall reading or hearing this word very often in the past. But reading >it in sev diff tabloid newspapers, used in the same context and applied to >different couples was striking. They all came out around the same time >(say 6 weeks ago). There must be some kind of (recent?) history to it >being a popular word all of a sudden amongst the columnists or writers. > For several years now "canoodling" has been used with some frequency in the gossip column ("Page Six") of the New York Post -- back through 97 or 98, if not much earlier. The sense is "making out," especially in a location where others can see the goings-on -- i.e., noticeably intense P.D.A. Of course, the word has a long history prior to Page Six, but anyone who's interested could use Lexis/Nexis to trace the spread of the word as employed in gossipy journalistic contexts late in the last century. Perhaps the older pedigree of "canoodling" and its status as cutesy or quaint euphemism make it preferable in journalistic contexts to blunter-sounding locutions such as "making out." Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at nyu.edu From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Oct 31 18:23:12 2002 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:23:12 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission In-Reply-To: <4601c2462f8c.462f8c4601c2@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I've definitely heard the term; it does indeed refer to parties held in people's homes at which erotic clothing and sex toys are sold, in the same way that Tupperware operates. As far as I know it's not an official name for a specific company, but rather a catch-all slang term for this type of party. Wendalyn Nichols At 12:19 PM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near Coney >Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her colleagues, >including my wife, that she had attended a "Fuckerware" party over the >weekend. My wife, not wanting to expose herself as an old codgerette from >an era and a region where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not >press for details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate >and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If there is >interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term is new to me. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern >Univ. Pr., 1998. From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 18:41:18 2002 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:41:18 -0500 Subject: do not open without your mother's permission In-Reply-To: <4601c2462f8c.462f8c4601c2@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 12:19:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > My wife teaches in the English Dept. of a high school near >Coney Island. Last week a young female teacher informed her >colleagues, including my wife, that she had attended a >"Fuckerware" party over the weekend. My wife, not wanting to >expose herself as an old codgerette from an era and a region >where they didn't have Fuckerware parties, did not press for >details, so I don't know whether the party was to demonstrate >and sell erotic clothing or dildos and suchlike or what. If >there is interest, I will ask her to inquire. But the term >is new to me. You'll find this term entered in the second edition of _The F-Word,_ with a first cite from 1985 in _Hustler,_ in reference to the 1985 pornographic film _The Pleasure Party._ The term is used in that film, though since it stars Traci Lords, and is thus illegal to possess as Ms Lords was inderage at the time, I thought it best not to quote from the film directly. It is, indeed, a gathering for the group use of sex toys. Jesse Sheidlower From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Thu Oct 31 20:06:31 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:06:31 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween Message-ID: The day before a Christian feast day became the "eve" ( originally the evening before ) of that day, hence "Christmas Eve." In this case, "All Hallows Eve," "All Hallows" is better known now as "All Saints Day." "All Saints Day" is followed by "All Souls Day," which is better known in Mexico ( and, increasingly, in the U.S.) as El Dia ( looks odd without the accent ) de los Muertos. [ For a similar concept, but different season, see "Walpurgisnacht."] Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Hollie B wrote: > > #Is All Hallow's Eve considered the night before or the > #night of Halloween? > # > #Annie Bush > > Same night. > > Halloween (I learned to write it as "Hallowe'en", in the prehistoric > 1950s) < Hallow Even < All Hallows' Even. > > -- Mark A. Mandel From stevekl at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 31 20:10:18 2002 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: <20021031142742.6906.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Ed Keer wrote: > I'm curious to hear what the night before Halloween is > called in your neck of the woods. I grew up in SE > Pennsylvania and we called it "mischief night". My > wife, from Bergen county, NJ, calls it "goosie night". > I've also heard "hell night" and "cabbage night" > (again, North Jersey). Any others? Devil's Night. (I grew up outside of Flint, Michigan.) Used to be a night in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set buildings on fire in droves. -- Steve From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET Thu Oct 31 20:20:59 2002 From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:20:59 -0500 Subject: flake Message-ID: Does anyone know if "flake" was engendered or enhanced by "el flaco" ? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Oct 31 20:40:32 2002 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:40:32 EST Subject: flake Message-ID: In a message dated 10/31/02 3:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > Does anyone know if "flake" was engendered or enhanced by "el flaco" ? A different question: the term "flake" meaning "an irresponsible person" was attached to a baseball player named Jackie Brandt not later than 1962. reference "Flakey Brandt and Big Boog" _Sports Illustrated_ April 9, 1962 (Vol. 16, Issue 14) -- p. 50. Title quoted in URL http://www.pubdim.net/baseballlibrary/sabr/tbi/B/Brandt_Jackie.tbi.stm I have seen it claimed several times that the usage of "flake" to mean "irresponsible person" derives from this epithet applied to Brandt. Does anyone know whether this claim is correct or an etymythology? - Jim Landau From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 31 21:14:43 2002 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:14:43 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat Message-ID: How old is "trick or treat"? It seems to have been universally observed in the United States by the 1950s. According to Nicholas Rogers, Halloween: From Pagan Ritual to Party Night (reviewed in the most recent New York Times Review of Books), it was introduced in the U.S. only about 1939. It must have spread rapidly. The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October 1947. I can antedate that slightly. This case doesn't say which Halloween was involved, but it necessarily was before 1947: >>It was Halloween and spirits walked. Little children were eager, excited, and gay, and their oldsters joined in the merriment. Little Dorothy and her sister Betty, age seven, were enjoying the childish sport of 'trick or treat' among the neighbors of the Burtons in the city of Los Angeles.<< Burton v. Los Angeles Ry. Corp., 79 Cal.App.2d 605, 608, 180 P.2d 367, 368 (Cal.App. 2 Dist. May 12, 1947). John Baker From nerd_core at EXCITE.COM Thu Oct 31 21:27:53 2002 From: nerd_core at EXCITE.COM (joshua) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:27:53 -0500 Subject: dialect change? Message-ID: this thought hit me on the way to the shower. any takers? when people sing, they pronounce words differently (they drop consonants, substitute phonemes, etc.) doing this isn't technically a dialect change, so what would we call it? -joshua _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 22:15:47 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:15:47 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Baker, John wrote: > The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October 1947. Anthony Boucher published a Halloween story entitled "Trick-or-Treat" in _Master Detective_, June 1945. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Oct 31 22:33:04 2002 From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:33:04 -0500 Subject: 'circulation-goosing' - new term? Message-ID: Mark Mandel observes, >> And the construction "NOUN1-VERBing NOUN2", meaning NOUN2 that VERBs >> NOUN1, or NOUN2 that's related to the action of VERBing NOUN1, is well >> established and productive, so that given the existing meaning of >> "goose", "circulation-goosing caffeine" already means "caffeine that >> stimulates circulation". There's no need to posit a new usage or >> construction. That's correct. --Dodi Schultz From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Oct 31 22:34:28 2002 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:34:28 -0800 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How old is "trick or treat"? It seems to have been > universally observed in the United States by the 1950s. > According to Nicholas Rogers, Halloween: From Pagan Ritual > to Party Night (reviewed in the most recent New York Times > Review of Books), it was introduced in the U.S. only about > 1939. It must have spread rapidly. > > The OED takes "trick or treat" back only to October > 1947. I can antedate that slightly. This case doesn't say > which Halloween was involved, but it necessarily was before 1947: > > >>It was Halloween and spirits walked. Little > children were eager, excited, and gay, and their oldsters > joined in the merriment. Little Dorothy and her sister Betty, > age seven, were enjoying the childish sport of 'trick or > treat' among the neighbors of the Burtons in the city of Los > Angeles.<< > > Burton v. Los Angeles Ry. Corp., 79 Cal.App.2d 605, 608, 180 > P.2d 367, 368 (Cal.App. 2 Dist. May 12, 1947). I found an Oct 1941 citation, a poem in the _Saturday Evening Post_ titled "Trick or Treat." There is also a 30 Oct 1937 _SEP_ cover illustration (by Robert B. Velie, not Rockwell) titled "Trick or Treaters." But neither the UC nor the Berkeley public library have this issue, so I can't verify if that illustration title is from 1937 or was assigned later. From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 31 22:59:34 2002 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:59:34 -0500 Subject: Night before Halloween In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Devil's Night. (I grew up outside of Flint, Michigan.) Used to be a night >in Detroit, and to a lesser extent in Flint, where arsonists would set >buildings on fire in droves. In Detroit (city) ca. 1960, "Devil's Night" (I pictured it as "Devils' Night" then) was a children's institution, a time for pranks or tricks, an extension of Halloween (Oct. 31 evening was expended in foraging for treats, so the tricks had to have a different night). Some of the tricks of course were childishly cruel or dangerous. The expression at that time did not refer to a frenzy of arson (to my best knowledge). I think the development of the stronger meaning was straightforward and probably began around 1968. The arson orgy apparently reached its peak in 1984, and has been in decline since. Detroit's population has been shrinking (I'm gone for example!) during recent decades, providing many decrepit vacant buildings which are a temptation to casual arsonists ... but then I suppose the population of arsonists has been shrinking too, lately. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 31 23:58:21 2002 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:58:21 -0500 Subject: Trick or Treat In-Reply-To: <001a01c2812d$ad0bac50$0300a8c0@HPN5290> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dave Wilton wrote: > I found an Oct 1941 citation, a poem in the _Saturday Evening Post_ titled > "Trick or Treat." There is also a 30 Oct 1937 _SEP_ cover illustration (by > Robert B. Velie, not Rockwell) titled "Trick or Treaters." But neither the > UC nor the Berkeley public library have this issue, so I can't verify if > that illustration title is from 1937 or was assigned later. _American Home_, Nov. 1940, p. 95, had an article entitled "New Tricks and Treats for Halloween." I don't know whether this article included "trick or treat," but that seems likely. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------