From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:14:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:14:18 EDT
Subject: Tuna Mushroom and Noodle Casserole (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.211418.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I bought a five-hour pass to the TORONTO STAR's Pages of the Past, by the
folks at Cold North Wind who also do PaperOfRecord.com.  It's only 4.95
(Canadian).
   Make any research requests real soon.
   "Nanaimo Bars" turned up only 20 February 1974....No golf "mulligan."
    Here's some tuna, for a starter.


   11 April 1935, TORONTO STAR, pg. 35, col. 1:
_COOKING CHAT_
Marie Holmes
_Tuna Fish Favorite Sea Food Delicacy--Many Types and_
   _Colors--Yellow-Fin Variety Most Popular_
   _--Suggested Recipes_
   Chicken is considered the greatest delicacy among meats, and tuna fish is
the "chicken" in the fish world.
(...)
(Col. 2--ed.)
   TUNA HASH...
   TUNA SALAD...
   TUNA A LA KING...
   TUNA MUSHROOM AND NOODLE CASSEROLE
   1     large can tuna fish
   1     can of thick cream of mushroom soup
   1 1.2 cups of milk
   1 1/2 cups of cooked noodles
   1 1/2 teaspoons of chopped pimento.
   Heat the cream of mushroom soup.  Add the milk gradually, then tuna fish,
noodles and pimento.  Pour into a buttered casserole dish.  Cook 10 minutes in
hot oven 370 degrees F.
   TUNA FISH LOAF...
(Col. 3--ed.)
   TUNA CLUB SANDWICH
   CANAPES


   27 August 1937, TORONTO STAR, pg. 26, col. 7:
MOULDED TUNA FISH SALAD


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:26:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:26:45 EDT
Subject: American Chop Suey (1904)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.212645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Canada.


   25 April 1904, TORONTO STAR, pf. 3, col. 6:
LUN HONG SUEY, 190 York street--Chop suey, China chop suey, American chop
suey, Li (? Illegible--ed.) Hang Chong's chop suey; noodles in any style; fried
noodles.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:48:27 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:48:27 EDT
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.214827.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
is they do on their web cams? I got one today from

isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com

she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional namesake is, but she
does think her name is "cool."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 02:07:08 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:08 EDT
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.220708.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Query the American Name Society.
  I got this "pornspam" just today.  Not another penis--wait a minute, it's
from OED!
  "Site Enhancements!"  Are they complete Neanderthals over there in England?

Barry Popik


Subj:   Site Enhancements!
Date:   9/30/2003 5:25:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:onlinesubs at oup-usa.org">onlinesubs at oup-usa.org</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

***Please do not reply to this e-mail as it is a post only mailing. If you
have any questions or comments, please address them to
onlinesubscriptions at oup-usa.org

Dear OED subscriber,

When you log onto the OED site today, you'll notice a new look to the home
page and the other general information pages.

In addition to a clean, modern design, the main features of the new public
site include:

* "Find Word" feature now available from the home page for authenticated
subscribers

* Improved navigation features, and better organization of content, so the
page
you want is easier to find

* Increased use of cascading style sheets, including a style sheet for
printing
the pages

We hope this new design improves your ability to locate the product and
customer service information pages - and your overall experience with OED Online.

Please do not hesitate to contact us with any comments or questions at
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And for information about all of the Oxford Online Products, please visit
http://www.oxfordonline.com.

Sincerely,


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Oxford University Press
onlinesubscriptions at oup-usa.org

Go to www.oxfordonline.com for information about all of the Oxford Online
products.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  1 02:21:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:21:41 -0400
Subject: names in pornspam
In-Reply-To: <1e1.10c5eaea.2cab8c6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.222141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
>-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
>is they do on their web cams? I got one today from
>
>isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com
>
>she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional

near-

>namesake is, but she
>does think her name is "cool."

Perhaps she thinks it's the feminine counterpart of "Isabel Archer"


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  1 02:40:29 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:40:29 -0700
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.194029.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wired.com had a piece a few months ago on the related topic of which
subject-line tags seem to work best for spammers.

Geoff Nunberg

Spam Is in Eye of the Beholder
By Michelle Delio

Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59089,00.html

02:00 AM Jun. 04, 2003 PT

NEW YORK -- Exclamation points are evil!!!

E-mail that features an exuberant sprinkling of exclamation points is
almost guaranteed to provoke petulance in potential clients,
according to Michelle Feit, president of ePostDirect. Free is another
word that sparks sudden skepticism and must be used with extreme care.

Feit was speaking at one of the dozen workshops being offered this
week on successful e-mail marketing during DM Days New York
Conference and Expo in New York City. DM Days is organized by the
Direct Marketing Association, an industry advocacy group.

During the workshops, e-mail marketers shared tips on ways to create
what far too many here describe as "events in e-mail inboxes" --
exciting sales pitches guaranteed to whet the interest of clients.

But wait, there's more!

They also pondered such questions as the best day and time to send
out e-mail advertising pitches, the art and science of subject lines,
the "winningest" way to handle complaints, and how to overcome
customer skepticism in this "age of disbelief."

Between sessions, some mourned the loss of their very favorite
sales-pitch slogans.

"I feel like a lot of really good words have been stolen from me,"
said Kevin Codell, a freelance advertising copywriter who is
attending the conference.

"Free. Opportunity. Exciting. Credit. All of these words are now too
'spammy' to use because they are on the block lists used by antispam
filters," he said. "Even e-mails containing the word click are being
filtered out now."

The hundreds of direct marketers attending DM Days insist they don't
spam, and they would really like to see the shady purveyors of sexual
aids, porn and pirated software prevented from darkening e-mail
inboxes ever again.

But some antispam advocates take issue with the DMA's definition of
spam, saying it contains too many loopholes.

Spam or not, DM Days offers a somewhat unsettling backstage glimpse
into the tips and techniques used by marketers to appeal to potential
customers.

Consultant Lee Mark Stein offered a workshop on "10 tips that you can
use immediately to suspend disbelief." Stein pointed out that the
media and government take great joy in exposing the techniques of
direct marketers; consequently, many people's "bullshit filters" are
now set on high.

In response, Stein suggested that marketers drop phony
personalization, overwrought promises and deceptive sales gimmicks
like those snail-mail solicitations designed to look like bank
checks. Marketers should remember that people who respond to
direct-mail ads are optimists, not idiots, Stein counseled.

According to Tricia Robinson, who led Socketware's workshop on why
e-mail campaigns aren't working, voracious spam filters and a
spam-saturated marketplace are to blame.

Using words co-opted by spammers such as limited-time, free,
opportunity and only now makes recipients of e-mailed pitches wary.
And a wary recipient isn't going to toddle off to a website and
purchase things.

On the other hand, Need to know is still a good phrase to include in
e-mail subject lines. Everyone wants to know what they need to know.

Download, preview or trial also work well. And demo is solid gold --
it woos interested customers who are actually willing to look at the
product without the promise of a free download.

Dollar signs in a subject line are another proven loser. Especially
if that e-mail lands in an inbox on that dreaded Thursday afternoon
in August.

"In general, no one buys anything on Thursday afternoon besides their
basics," said New York-based ad copywriter Les Callhan. "Business
stuff is purchased at the beginning of the week, leisure offers are
ignored until Friday, and no one is interested in anything but
vacation in August. Thursdays in August are the black hole of e-mail
advertising."

Monday isn't a great time for recipients to receive advertising
e-mail either. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are considered prime days for
pitches, as most people are still in work mode but aren't overwhelmed
with Monday's pileup, or end-of-the-week restlessness.

Some of the hints offered at the workshops sounded more hopeful than
useful. There's a persistent thread running through all these
workshops that customers can be persuaded to really "get involved"
with an e-mailed sales pitch.

"Get involved with an ad?" laughed a security worker at the Jacob K.
Javits Convention Center, where DM Days is being held this week.
"What kinds of ads are we talking about here? Some new kind of
inflatable ads for lonely guys?"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 02:52:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:52:28 EDT
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.225228.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From a search of the TORONTO STAR.


    29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
   Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also about
the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of the
West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies (Newfoundland) and
Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them any
more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
bread.

   11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
Acadian Village):
   When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by horses
or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian dishes
such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked potatoes
wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).

   24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
_Fast-food snack combines_
_cheese, sauce, french fries_
   MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat and
salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
pizza in Quebec snack bars.
   It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
   The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese curds is
added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
   If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce causes
the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
   Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the past two
years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
cheese company.
   Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been sold
to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
   Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
made with spaghetti sauce.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 04:13:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:13:15 EDT
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.001315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Not much new here.  Did Barney Bertsche publish anything?


   19 January 1916, TORONTO STAR, pg. 2, col. 5:

   _THIEVES' SLANG_
_Graphic Language as Heard in the Underworld._

   The following glossary of thieves' slang is compiled by Barney Bertsche,
the notorious Chicago crook, who is now telling the story of his life:
ARREST.....................................................Glaum
BANK..........................................................Jug
BANKER......................................................Jugger
BLOW A SAFE.............................................Kick in the gopher
BOND JUMPER............................................Lamster
CHAIN..........................................................Slang
DETECTIVE...................................................Bull, dick, Mr.
Richard
DIAMOND......................................................Rock
EAT...............................................................Scoff
GIRL..............................................................Moll
HAT...............................................................Skypiece
HOTEL...........................................................Kipsville
JAIL................................................................Stir, pen
JAILER............................................................Screw
JEWELRY.......................................................Junk
KNIFE.............................................................Chiv
LAWYER.........................................................Mouthpiece
MONEY...........................................................Scratch,
dough, jack
OVERCOAT.....................................................Benny
PATROLMAN...................................................Harness, bull,
flatty
PHYSICIAN......................................................Croaker
PICKPOCKET...................................................Cannon, gun dip
POCKET BOOK...............................................Poke, leather
POCKET PICKING GANG..................................Gun mob
REVOLVER......................................................Gat
RING................................................................Hoop
TO RUN............................................................To tear, to
lam
SAFE................................................................Pete,
gopher
SAFEBLOWER....................................................Peterman
SHOPLIFTER.....................................................Booster
SILK..................................................................Worm
SLEEP..............................................................Kip
STREET CAR....................................................Short
STUD................................................................Prop
SUIT OF CLOTHES............................................Tog
TO CATCH A TRAIN...........................................Hop a rattler
TO PICK A POCKET...........................................To nick, to touch
TRAIN................................................................Rattler
VICTIM...............................................................Sucker,
boob, vamp, mark
VALISE, BAG.....................................................Koester
WATCH..............................................................Thimble


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  1 04:50:19 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:50:19 -0400
Subject: I'll take "police vans" for $1000.  Antedating 'paddy wagon' to
 (1914)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.005019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hopefull I've searched the archives this time and won't screw it up the way
I did with "Black Maria."  Sorry George.

The OED and M-W both have 1930 for "paddy wagon."

>From the Washington Post, March 15, 1914:  p.1 of the miscellany section,
col. 5-----

In an article entitled "Lingo of the Old-Time Thief"--from the Chicago
Tribune

     "A "peetman" is a safeblower, and when he blows a safe he "cracks a
joint."  If he is caught and taken to the station in the "paddy wagon" he
may be given "six months in the buck" or a "long bit" or a "short bit."


From bpk at NOTHING.COM  Wed Oct  1 05:07:06 2003
From: bpk at NOTHING.COM (Brian Kariger)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:06 -0700
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
In-Reply-To: <17d.20fb6243.2cabae5b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.220706.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

I really enjoy your contributions to the list. One word you might be
interested in antedating is scam, which only goes back to 1963 in OED
and elsewhere.

All the best,
Brian


On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:13  PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Not much new here.  Did Barney Bertsche publish anything?
>
>
>    19 January 1916, TORONTO STAR, pg. 2, col. 5:
>
>    _THIEVES' SLANG_
> _Graphic Language as Heard in the Underworld._
>
>    The following glossary of thieves' slang is compiled by Barney
> Bertsche,
> the notorious Chicago crook, who is now telling the story of his life:
> ARREST.....................................................Glaum
> BANK..........................................................Jug
> BANKER......................................................Jugger
> BLOW A SAFE.............................................Kick in the
> gopher
> BOND JUMPER............................................Lamster
> CHAIN..........................................................Slang
> DETECTIVE...................................................Bull,
> dick, Mr.
> Richard
> DIAMOND......................................................Rock
> EAT...............................................................Scoff
> GIRL..............................................................Moll
> HAT...............................................................Skypi
> ece
> HOTEL...........................................................Kipsvil
> le
> JAIL................................................................Sti
> r, pen
> JAILER............................................................Screw
> JEWELRY.......................................................Junk
> KNIFE.............................................................Chiv
> LAWYER.........................................................Mouthpie
> ce
> MONEY...........................................................Scratch
> ,
> dough, jack
> OVERCOAT.....................................................Benny
> PATROLMAN...................................................Harness,
> bull,
> flatty
> PHYSICIAN......................................................Croaker
> PICKPOCKET...................................................Cannon,
> gun dip
> POCKET BOOK...............................................Poke, leather
> POCKET PICKING GANG..................................Gun mob
> REVOLVER......................................................Gat
> RING................................................................Hoo
> p
> TO RUN............................................................To
> tear, to
> lam
> SAFE................................................................Pet
> e,
> gopher
> SAFEBLOWER....................................................Peterman
> SHOPLIFTER.....................................................Booster
> SILK..................................................................W
> orm
> SLEEP..............................................................Kip
> STREET CAR....................................................Short
> STUD................................................................Pro
> p
> SUIT OF CLOTHES............................................Tog
> TO CATCH A TRAIN...........................................Hop a
> rattler
> TO PICK A POCKET...........................................To nick, to
> touch
> TRAIN................................................................Ra
> ttler
> VICTIM...............................................................Su
> cker,
> boob, vamp, mark
> VALISE, BAG.....................................................Koester
> WATCH..............................................................Thim
> ble
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 05:24:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:24:03 EDT
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.012403.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thanks.  I'll try to tackle that soon.

Barry Popik
least paid, hardest-working editor of OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD
AND DRINK (2004);
not-paid-at-all contributor to DARE and HDAS and OED and Merriam-Webster


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 13:10:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:10:21 EDT
Subject: Gorilla warfare
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.091021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall having
heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like "this
product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that everybody will
start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".

The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical mass".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
AOL News did it again.

APE ESCAPES FROM ZOO, INJURES TWO
POLL SAYS ARNOLD WILL WIN

           - Jim Landau


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Oct  1 13:18:10 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:18:10 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <c.195c074f.2cac2c3d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.091810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.

His web site:
http://www.gladwell.com/

The original article:
http://www.gladwell.com/1996/1996_06_03_a_tipping.htm

More about the book:
http://www.gladwell.com/books.html


On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> having
> heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.
>
> The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like
> "this
> product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that
> everybody will
> start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".
>
> The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical
> mass".


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  1 13:26:59 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:26:59 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <c.195c074f.2cac2c3d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.092659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:10 AM -0400 10/1/03, James A. Landau wrote:
>Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall having
>heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

There was a best-selling book by journalist Malcolm Gladwell on the
concept that got a lot of play in the media a couple of years ago.
I'm sure if you did a study there would be a spike just as Gladwell's
book was published (one of his examples was the effect on crime rates
in NYC of the prosecution of quality-of-life crimes in the early
90's), and then a gradual decline since then, but references still
pop up periodically.
>
>The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like "this
>product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that everybody will
>start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".
>
>The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical mass".

Similar idea, but the two can't be used interchangeably, whence the
utility of the "tipping point" metaphor.  (Whether or not the
phenomenon itself has been accurately described.)

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Oct  1 14:43:45 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 07:43:45 -0700
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <B4354C4F-F411-11D7-B383-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.074345.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>:

> It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
> Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.

> On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> > having
> > heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.

The following appears on Usenet, soc.culture.indian, 23 Oct 1992:

"Another view suggests that a tipping point in discrimination occurs when
minorites evidence successes as this is perceived to be threatening to the
host
society."

I'm a bit surprised it is this late. The metaphor is fairly obvious and basic.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Oct  1 14:56:39 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:56:39 -0400
Subject: Tipping point
In-Reply-To: <1065019425.3f7ae82108751@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.105639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 07:43 AM 10/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Quoting Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>:
>
> > It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
> > Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.
>
> > On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> > > having
> > > heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.
>
>Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.
>
>The following appears on Usenet, soc.culture.indian, 23 Oct 1992:
>
>"Another view suggests that a tipping point in discrimination occurs when
>minorites evidence successes as this is perceived to be threatening to the
>host
>society."
>
>I'm a bit surprised it is this late. The metaphor is fairly obvious and basic.
>
>--
>Dave Wilton
>dave at wilton.net
>http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


It's not. Here's the article Safire did on it based on my research and 
interviews. I was able to get it back to 1957.

THE WAY WE LIVE NOW: 7-27-03: ON LANGUAGE; Tipping
By William Safire
'I do think the concept of a tipping point is correct,'' Defense Secretary 
Donald H. Rumsfeld said on April 7, when asked about his frequent use of 
that phrase about public opinion in Iraq. ''And at some point, the 
aggregation of all those individual tipping points having been reached, it 
will be, in effect, the country will have tipped.''
With the unforgettable live television coverage of a symbolic event in 
Firdos Square in Baghdad, the two words were on many media lips in the 
following weeks. ''Like the giant statue of Saddam Hussein that slowly 
tumbled to the ground in central Baghdad yesterday,'' wrote Paul Ignatius 
in The Washington Post, ''the war in Iraq has been determined by a series 
of tipping points that mean the collapse of the regime.''

Then came the deluge of usages of that phrase in other contexts. ''School 
System at 'Tipping Point''' headlined The Financial Times. ''America has 
hit a tipping point in which fair-minded people now support equality,'' 
said a Freedom to Marry advocate after the Supreme Court decision striking 
down sodomy laws. In a Times Magazine article about offbeat names being 
given today's babies, Peggy Orenstein wrote, ''The tipping point came when 
Christie Brinkley, who is very visible, named her daughter Sailor because 
she and her husband liked to sail.'' (Coming soon for girls: Jade, Chloe, 
Destiny. For boys: Caleb, Liam, Tristan. Unfortunately for that last little 
fellow, girls are not predicted to be named Isolde. Now back to today's 
subject.)
The phrase that has become the overpowering cliché of the year was first 
popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in an influential 1996 article in The New 
Yorker, and in a subsequent best-selling book with that title. Subtitled 
''How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference,'' Gladwell deals with the 
way some ideas slowly spread and then suddenly take off. The New Yorker 
staff writer took the trope from epidemiology, the study of epidemics: 
''The tipping point is that moment in an epidemic when a virus reaches 
critical mass, the moment on the graph when the line starts to shoot 
straight upwards.''
''AIDS tipped in 1982,'' Gladwell told his Web site, ''when it went from a 
rare disease affecting a few gay men to a worldwide epidemic. Crime in New 
York City tipped in the mid 1990's, when the murder rate suddenly 
plummeted. When I heard that phrase for the first time, I remember 
thinking: Wow. What if everything has a tipping point? Wouldn't it be cool 
to try and look for tipping points in business, in social policy or in 
advertising or in any number of nonmedical areas?'' (The writer's subtitle 
for his 1996 article was bottomed on the medical figure of speech: ''Why is 
the city suddenly so much safer -- could it be that crime really is an 
epidemic?'') This led sales-chartists to the related term, viral marketing.
Like a low-level flu, the phrase had been kicking around for years. In an 
endnote, Gladwell referenced a 1978 book by a University of Maryland 
professor of public affairs, Thomas Schelling, ''Micro Motives and Macro 
Behavior.'' Professor Schelling tells me that ''the first thing I published 
on tipping'' was in a chapter of a 1972 book on neighborhood racial 
segregation, and he directed me to an October 1957 article on that subject 
in Scientific American, by Morton Grodzins, a University of Chicago 
political-science professor.
''White residents, who will tolerate a few Negroes as neighbors, either 
willingly or unwillingly,'' Grodzins wrote nearly a half-century ago, 
''begin to move out when the proportion of Negroes in the neighborhood or 
apartment building passes a certain critical point. This 'tip point' varies 
from city to city. Once it is exceeded, they will no longer stay among 
Negro neighbors.''
Homer Bigart, the legendary New York Herald Tribune war correspondent and 
later New York Times reporter, picked up the phrase in that context in a 
1959 article on racial tension in Virginia. Bigart quoted the educator 
Robert Williams: ''Exactly when the tipping point of white acceptance will 
be reached will depend upon the attitude of the individual white parent and 
upon the general white community attitude.''
Says Schelling: ''The phenomenon was originally discussed in relation to 
residential patterns. I generalized it to many kinds of behavior in that 
1978 book.'' Gladwell then popularized and further generalized the concept, 
and the warrior Rumsfeld applied it to public opinion in Iraq, thereby 
carrying it into every home and hearth.
But it is now a tired, worn-out cliché, to be avoided by fresh thinkers 
like the plague. (Though avoided like the plague is also a bromide, its 
connection to epidemiology makes it apt in this case.)
The predecessor phrase, critical mass, though dated, is still usable. 
Nuclear physicists, who took the term, coined in 1940 by Prof. Margaret 
Gowing of Oxford University, to mean ''the minimum mass of fissile material 
required to sustain a chain reaction,'' still pout when lay writers extend 
its meaning to ''anything large enough to achieve the desired result.'' The 
metaphor is dramatic -- there's a mushroom cloud somewhere in the 
background -- but it has been in active use too long.
Pointillists will look at boiling point, but that does not suggest radical 
change. Focal point is about convergence, not transformation. Turning 
point? Not a lot of bezazz, and it does not express the idea of the straw 
that breaks the camel's back or the little extra quantity that causes 
systemic shift, but it makes the point of the moment of new direction and 
is probably the father of tipping point.
The difficulty in finding a forceful, colorful synonym demonstrates how the 
Grodzins coinage met a semantic need. But disdainers of cliché must ask 
ourselves, What is it that the overuse of tipping point has reached?
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Oct  1 15:15:43 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:15:43 -0700
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
In-Reply-To: <200310010252.h912qfTX011486@mxu4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.081543.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Poutine has made it to the west coast, and as my Canadian friend says, at
least here it is the most disgusting concoction you can imagine.  No
barbecue sauce in British Columbia.  Here, poutine (on more menus than you
would have guessed; even found in a Chinese restaurant in Quesnel)
consists of french fries with gravy.  There may have been cheese curds,
but I avoided looking more than once.  It would have been considered rude
by those who'd ordered it.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     From a search of the TORONTO STAR.
>
>
>     29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
>    Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also about
> the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
> them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of the
> West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies (Newfoundland) and
> Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them any
> more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
> bread.
>
>    11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
> Acadian Village):
>    When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by horses
> or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian dishes
> such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked potatoes
> wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).
>
>    24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
> _Fast-food snack combines_
> _cheese, sauce, french fries_
>    MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat and
> salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
> pizza in Quebec snack bars.
>    It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
> cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
>    The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
> steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese curds is
> added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
>    If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce causes
> the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
>    Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
> Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the past two
> years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
> cheese company.
>    Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been sold
> to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
>    Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
> made with spaghetti sauce.
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Oct  1 16:39:23 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:39:23 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <1065019425.3f7ae82108751@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.123923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.

I agree, which is why I was careful to write, "popularized."

Grant


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct  1 18:35:02 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:35:02 -0500
Subject: Who is Isabella Archer? (was: names in pornspam)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.133502.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:48 PM -0400 9/30/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
>-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
>is they do on their web cams? I got one today from
>
>isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com
>
>she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional namesake is, but she
>does think her name is "cool."


  Please forgive this no doubt naive question: Who is the fictional
Isabella Archer?

Gerald Cohen


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Oct  1 18:49:35 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:49:35 -0700
Subject: Who is Isabella Archer? (was: names in pornspam)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.114935.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isabel Archer is the heroine of Henry James's "Portrait of a Lady" (She was
played by Nicole Kidman in the most recent film adaptation, I think,
although I didn't see it myself.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 22:17:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:17:46 EDT
Subject: Fight/Hockey Game (1978, Toronto Star credits Dangerfield)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.181746.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sorry for that last ADS-L post; I thought it was a personal e-mail.
   I still have some time on my Toronto Star "Pages of the Past"
subscription, so I thought that I'd check this classic hockey phrase.  (See ADS-L archives
for Washington Post and New York Times citations just slightly later.)


   27 September 1978, TORONTO STAR, pg C1, col. 4:
   There are several ways hockey serves as entertainment on the tube.  There
are the fights, or as comedian Rodney Dangerfield says, "I went to a fight
last night and a hockey game broke out."

   30 December 1978, TORONTO STAR,  pg. B1, col. 4 (Year-end sports
round-up):
   _Quote:_  "I went to a fight the other night," said Rodney Dangerfield,
"and a hockey game broke out."

   27 February 1979, TORONTO STAR, pg. A9, col. 7 (letters):
   As one disillusioned writer said of an NHL game: "I went to a boxing match
and a hockey game broke out."

   12 March 1979, TORONTO STAR, pg. B1, col. 3:
   Comedian Rodney Dangerfield's one-liner "I went to a fight last night and
a hockey game broke out" became reality during a tasteless National Hockey
League match last night.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 23:22:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:22:32 EDT
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.192232.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Allan Metcalf wants to get more Canadians involved in the ADS.  I don't
know if this post will help.
   The HDAS has a "hoser" entry.  The first citation is MACLEAN'S, 21 April
1982, with "hoser" meaning "a stupid, crude, or annoying person."  The second
definition ("an uncultivated Canadian person") is cited from 1984.
   This is what the TORONTO STAR has.


   2 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. A4, col. 5:
_Trend to togues_
_beer, back bacon_
_is taking off, eh?_
(...)
   MacKenzie brothers phrases like "hoser" and their habit of wearing toques
and ear muffs while drinking beer are being imitated in living rooms and
schools across Metro.
(...)
   For parents puzzled by talk of hosers and such, Rick Moranis explained in
a telephone interview from Edmonton, where the show is taped, that "a hoser is
what you call your brother when your folks won't let you swear."


   26 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G7, col. 1 photo caption:
_Doug McKenzie/_ What a hoser, eh?


   18 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A21, col. 2:
_The German answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Media people seem at a loss on how to define the newly created exclusive
Canadian derivative "hoser," which is vaguely explained as someone slow about
his wits.
   As a Canadian of German origin, maybe I can help.  Hose in German is
"Schlauch."  Hence a "hoser" would be known as a "Schlaucher," denoting a person
who drinks to excess, filling up as from a "Schlauch."
   And there you have it.  Hoser: One who tipples a lot--in short, a lush.
   E. GERLITZ
   Ajax


   26 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A19, col. 3:
_The simple answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Re: The letter "The Geramn answer to 'hoser' question," Feb. 6. (Wrong
date?--ed.)
   The word "hoser," in a certain sense, isn't really new, and its origin
would seem to be simple.
   During World War II, it was commonplace to hear people using the slang
verb "to hose" in the same sense as the modern phrase "to be shafted," meaning
cheated, or treated unfairly or maliciously.  Thus we had such expressions as,
"Don't let them hose you," and "I hope I don't get hosed."
   To turn the verb "to hose" into a noun or an adjective--"You're a hoser,"
or "This hoser repairman"--is a minor readjustment.  Since the literal meaning
of hosing would be to spray with water from a hose, and particularly if this
was done to a person in a malicious or unpleasant manner.  I would suggest
that the origin of "hoser" is as simple as this.
   ERIC ADAMS
   Toronto


 (Actually, the word "hoser" is American, of Indiana dialect, and means
"Who's ear?"--ed.)


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Oct  1 23:41:47 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:41:47 -0700
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0310010813560.49466@homer35.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.164147.0700.>

as a former Quebecker now living in Vancouver BC, I feel obliged to defend
the honour of poutine.

it's delicious.

...when prepared correctly.

folks here just don't get it.  however, there's hope.  NY Fries (!!) makes a
decent poutine, and then, there's the little Mom and Pops opening up in
downtown Vancouver, catering to the ever-increasing influx of urban former
Montrealers.  They fly in the curds, the smoked meat, and the Jos Louis
pastries overnight from Montreal !

cheers -

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of J. Eulenberg
Sent: October 1, 2003 8:16 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)


Poutine has made it to the west coast, and as my Canadian friend says, at
least here it is the most disgusting concoction you can imagine.  No
barbecue sauce in British Columbia.  Here, poutine (on more menus than you
would have guessed; even found in a Chinese restaurant in Quesnel)
consists of french fries with gravy.  There may have been cheese curds,
but I avoided looking more than once.  It would have been considered rude
by those who'd ordered it.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>     From a search of the TORONTO STAR.
>
>
>     29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
>    Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also
about
> the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
> them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of
the
> West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies
(Newfoundland) and
> Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them
any
> more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
> bread.
>
>    11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
> Acadian Village):
>    When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by
horses
> or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian
dishes
> such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked
potatoes
> wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).
>
>    24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
> _Fast-food snack combines_
> _cheese, sauce, french fries_
>    MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat
and
> salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
> pizza in Quebec snack bars.
>    It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
> cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
>    The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
> steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese
curds is
> added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
>    If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce
causes
> the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
>    Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
> Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the
past two
> years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
> cheese company.
>    Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been
sold
> to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
>    Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
> made with spaghetti sauce.
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct  2 01:26:31 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:26:31 -0500
Subject: Fwd: puns involving foods (e.g. Soda & Gomorra)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.202631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Today I received an e-mail which I assume is circulating around the
Internet, and I share an excerpt below my signoff. While seemingly
frivolous nature, it is relevant to the study of humor and creativity
in language.

Gerald Cohen



>...Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream is now available in Israel...
                In the following flavors:
                        Wailing Walnut
                        Moishmellow
                        Mazel Toffee
                        Chazalnut
                        Oy-Ge-malt
                        Mi-Ka-mocha
                        Soda & Gomorra
                        Bernard Malamint
                        Berry Pr'i Hagafen
                        Choc-Eilat Chip
and finally (drum roll, please).......Simchas T'oreo

It should also be noted that all these flavors come in a Cohen


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 01:46:09 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:46:09 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Who=20is=20Isabella=20Arc?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?her=3F=20(was:=20names=20in=20pornspam)?=
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.214609.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/1/03 2:42:34 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:


>   Please forgive this no doubt naive question: Who is the fictional
> Isabella Archer?
> 

There is a character in a novel by Henry James with a name that is very 
similar.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 03:01:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:01:42 EDT
Subject: Pablum (1931, 1932); Julekake (1938)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.230142.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JULEKAKE

   Beverly Flanagan wanted me to do better with "julekake."  The TORONTO STAR
has a nice cooking column, so I've done better--by two months!


   7 October 1938, TORONTO STAR, pg. 30, col. 6:
   The Hutzelbrot which Nancy had served to her club proved such a success
that other members of the group[ said, "Why don't we make some more of those
good rich fruited breads?  We can practise up ahead for Christmas.  But after all
I don't see why we have to wait for the holidays to have something so good."
   It was Mrs. Knutsen who served them with a Norwegian Christmas bread
called Julekake.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PABLUM

And Helen Quinn quite rightly adds two trademark names that have become words
in common international usage to my list of Canadian exported terms.  These
are _Pablum_ and _Fuller Brush man._.  The first was invented in Toronto at the
Sick Kid's; the second comes from the Maritimes where Mr. Fuller.was raised.
--TORONTO STAR, 31 October 1962, pg. 37, col. 8.

   "Pablum" is not mentioned at all in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   OED lists the 1932 trademark by Mead, Johnson & Co, Evansville, Indiana.
As in Hoosiers, not hosers.
    Merriam-Webster gives 1948 for the word "pablum" (from the trademark) and
1733 for the word "pabulum" (L., food).
    Here's the trademark:


Word Mark   PABLUM
Goods and Services  (EXPIRED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: SPECIALLY PREPARED
CEREAL FOOD CONSISTING OF A MIXTURE OF WHEAT MEAL, OATMEAL, AND YELLOW CORN MEAL,
TO WHICH HAVE BEEN ADDED WHEAT EMBRYO, DRIED YEAST, POWDERED DEHYDRATED ALFALFA
LEAF, AND POWDERED BEEF BONE PREPARED FOR HUMAN USE. FIRST USE: 19320604.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19320604
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   71327942
Filing Date June 13, 1932
Registration Number 0297897
Registration Date   October 4, 1932
Owner   (REGISTRANT) MEAD JOHNSON & COMPANY CORPORATION INDIANA OHIO STREET
AND SAINT JOSEPH AVENUE EVANSVILLE INDIANA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19721004
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD

     The first citation of "pablum" in the TORONTO STAR is 17 January 1934,
pg. 16, col. 3 ad, "MEAD'S PABLUM COOKED CEREAL...45c."
      But wait--let's GOOGLE:

http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts/canadian_studies/english/about/study_guide/doct
ors/better_foods.html

        Canadian Medicine: Doctors and Discoveries
        Better Foods, Improved Nutrition: Pablum and Children's Health
 During the 1920s and 1930s, considerable time and effort were spent studying
the science of artificial feeding. The scientific management of child-rearing
in general - from food to behaviour advice - increased the professional role
and authority of physicians in child care issues. Society seemed to welcome
the scientific approach to infant feeding and food and bought products that
advertised increased nutritional value for their children. In 1931, Pablum, an
infant cereal containing necessary minerals and vitamins for children's health,
became available in Canada and the United States. The food was heralded as an
excellent cereal addition to the infant's diet and remains a popular infant
food today. It was three Canadian doctors - Frederick Tisdall (1893-1949),
Theodore Drake (1891-1959), and Alan Brown (1887-1960) - who developed Pablum at the
Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.
   Tisdall was a pediatrician interested in nutritional research. In 1929, he
became the director of the hospital's nutritional research laboratories and
pursued various projects towards improved children's health. By early 1930,
Tisdall, Drake, Brown and others announced their first new major product towards
the betterment of children's diets. That product was Sunwheat, a biscuit
containing whole wheat, wheat germ, milk, butter, yeast, bone meal, iron, and
copper. It boasted a high vitamin content of A, B1 and B2, D, and E. McCormick's
food company agreed to market the product and all royalties were returned to the
Toronto Pediatric Foundation for further research at the Hospital for Sick
Children.
   Six months later, Tisdall, collaborating with Brown and Drake, announced
the development of another, more important food product for children - Pablum
(from the Latin word pabulum, meaning food). This was an infant cereal product
that unlike other cereal mixtures had the necessary minerals and five of the
six known vitamins that growing children needed. The five vitamins were A, B1
and B2, D and E, and were produced from a mixture of wheat, oats, corn, and
bone meal plus wheat germ, dried brewer's yeast, and alfalfa. This was all
ground, mixed, dried, and pre-cooked. The Mead Johnson company in the United States
agreed to sell the new product. And it sold well! Like Sunwheat, royalties
from Pablum sales reverted to the Toronto Paediatric Foundation for research for
a period of twenty-five years.
   Over the next several years, Tisdall and others at the Hospital for Sick
Children introduced more nutritionally-improved products for children. For
example, in the 1930s, they instigated the adding of Vitamin D to bread flour and
milk, which eliminated the need for daily doses of cod liver oil for many
children. For that alone, many Canadians (particulary those taking cod liver oil)
have thanked these Toronto pediatricians for their work on nutrition and
diets.


(Oh, all right!  I'll give Canada pablum!  "Pablum," the national cuisine!!
Canadians on the list, please, please don't kill me.  It's a joke--ed.)"


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Oct  2 14:50:42 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:50:42 -0700
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.075042.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a 'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.
Fritz

>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 10/01/03 04:22PM >>>
   Allan Metcalf wants to get more Canadians involved in the ADS.  I don't
know if this post will help.
   The HDAS has a "hoser" entry.  The first citation is MACLEAN'S, 21 April
1982, with "hoser" meaning "a stupid, crude, or annoying person."  The second
definition ("an uncultivated Canadian person") is cited from 1984.
   This is what the TORONTO STAR has.


   2 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. A4, col. 5:
_Trend to togues_
_beer, back bacon_
_is taking off, eh?_
(...)
   MacKenzie brothers phrases like "hoser" and their habit of wearing toques
and ear muffs while drinking beer are being imitated in living rooms and
schools across Metro.
(...)
   For parents puzzled by talk of hosers and such, Rick Moranis explained in
a telephone interview from Edmonton, where the show is taped, that "a hoser is
what you call your brother when your folks won't let you swear."


   26 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G7, col. 1 photo caption:
_Doug McKenzie/_ What a hoser, eh?


   18 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A21, col. 2:
_The German answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Media people seem at a loss on how to define the newly created exclusive
Canadian derivative "hoser," which is vaguely explained as someone slow about
his wits.
   As a Canadian of German origin, maybe I can help.  Hose in German is
"Schlauch."  Hence a "hoser" would be known as a "Schlaucher," denoting a person
who drinks to excess, filling up as from a "Schlauch."
   And there you have it.  Hoser: One who tipples a lot--in short, a lush.
   E. GERLITZ
   Ajax


   26 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A19, col. 3:
_The simple answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Re: The letter "The Geramn answer to 'hoser' question," Feb. 6. (Wrong
date?--ed.)
   The word "hoser," in a certain sense, isn't really new, and its origin
would seem to be simple.
   During World War II, it was commonplace to hear people using the slang
verb "to hose" in the same sense as the modern phrase "to be shafted," meaning
cheated, or treated unfairly or maliciously.  Thus we had such expressions as,
"Don't let them hose you," and "I hope I don't get hosed."
   To turn the verb "to hose" into a noun or an adjective--"You're a hoser,"
or "This hoser repairman"--is a minor readjustment.  Since the literal meaning
of hosing would be to spray with water from a hose, and particularly if this
was done to a person in a malicious or unpleasant manner.  I would suggest
that the origin of "hoser" is as simple as this.
   ERIC ADAMS
   Toronto


 (Actually, the word "hoser" is American, of Indiana dialect, and means
"Who's ear?"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Oct  2 15:30:58 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:30:58 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <sf7bd8dc.096@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.113058.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.

How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.

Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?

Isn't "hose monster" based on Sesame Street's "Cookie Monster" (who always
wants a cookie)?

-- Doug Wilson


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct  2 16:16:17 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:16:17 -0500
Subject: DARE in SALON today
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.111617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE is cited in the response to the lonelyhearts advice column
question in Salon today.

Pasted in below.

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com

Since you asked ...
- - - - - - - - - - - -


Queer eye for the wrong guy
I'm gay, but the love of my life says he's straight. Can we still be friends?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Cary Tennis



Oct. 1, 2003  |  Dear Cary,

How do you suggest "curing" yourself of being madly, completely and
obsessively in love with one of your best friends, with whom there's
absolutely no chance that it will move beyond anything but friendship?

I'm a gay man, and almost two years ago, my boyfriend of five years
suddenly dumped me, proclaiming his newfound heterosexuality; he was
in love with one of our mutual, female friends. They have since gone
on to have a wonderful relationship and are now expecting their first
child. This threw me into a tailspin. I was devastated and no longer
speak to either one of them. But in the last two years, I've managed
to somewhat make my peace with the situation and have started to
forgive them both. But herein lies the problem.

Around the same time as the breaking-up trauma, I made a new friend
through another friend I already had. Despite the fact that he was
"straight" and had a girlfriend, he was very flirtatious, touchy,
sensitive and very, very attentive. I began to get "signals," and I
started imagining scenarios of him rescuing me from my pain and
bewilderment. After several months, I could no longer take it and
broke down to him in the middle of a restaurant during dinner,
confessing that I was in love with him and knew that he had feelings
for me as well, and I was very curious as to what was going to
happen. He was shocked. He had no idea he had sent me mixed signals
and was heartbroken that he had unintentionally led me on. In
retrospect, I realize that this is just his personality, and he
treats all of his male friends this way.

We have continued to remain friends since then, and have grown
extremely close, but the problem is that my feelings still remain and
are stronger than ever. I've tried dating other people, but no one
(no matter how great a person they are) can measure up to him. He's
everything I've ever wanted in a lifelong partner, and being around
him brings me such joy and hope, but also makes me extremely
depressed. At this point, he is much more of a hindrance in moving on
from my failed relationship than my ex-boyfriend ever was.

I've tried distancing myself, but he and I are both totally wrapped
up in the same social group. Besides that, I don't want to. I would
still prefer him in my life as a friend than not at all, but his
friendship keeps me from moving on. This has been torturing me for
nearly two years now, and I'm starting to think I'm using it as a
"crutch" or an excuse to not get close to people that could hurt me
again. I'm sure this is probably a fairly textbook situation, and I
would love to hear your thoughts on it.


Straight Chaser

Dear Straight Chaser,

This may be a textbook case, but you cannot rely on textbooks. You
can't even rely on reference books. For instance, if I turned to my
beloved Dictionary of American Regional English, I would find that
"gay" is Quaker and Amish slang for "worldly." In A-H, the first
volume of what William Safire called "the most exciting linguistic
project going on in the United States," there is no mention of "gay"
meaning "homosexual." The slip-cover of that 1985 work notes, "Over a
five-year period, fieldworkers interviewed natives of 1,002
communities, a patchwork of the United States in all its diversity."
You mean to tell me that not one of those individuals in one of those
1,002 diverse communities noted to the interviewers that the word
"gay" means homosexual?

So much for textbook situations. If this is a textbook situation,
then not much has changed since Henry Drummond noted in his 1894
"Ascent of Man," "In almost every [science] department, the
text-books of ten years ago are obsolete today."

While the reference books are open, however, let me give you a couple
of citations, just for amusement: From the American Spectator, 1935:
"Two special expressions, for which there are no good American
equivalents, are in use among the 'plain' people (i.e., those who
wear the plain garb of the Mennonites, Amish, and other religious
sects): "to go gay," meaning to become worldly in the sense of
attending dances, card parties, movies, or participating in other
forbidden pleasures." Or as Fredric Klees noted in "The Pennsylvania
Dutch" in 1951, just two years before Merriam-Webster's 10th
Collegiate dates the first use of "gay" to mean "homosexual":
"Occasionally there is magic in the phraseology, as in the case of
the Amish girl who was expelled from meeting because she married a
Reformed youth and 'went gay.'"

To get even close to any sexual connotations in the word "gay," we
must turn to the 1811 "Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue: Buckish
Slang, University Wit, and Pickpocket Eloquence," which defines
"Gaying Instrument" as "the penis."

So keep your gaying instrument in your trousers as we continue. To
sum up: This may be a textbook situation, but the real learning takes
place in the field. What you have learned so far, apparently, is to
rely on nonverbal cues. That's why you're in a pickle. What you're
relying on in your unspoken negotiations with members of your sex is
a vast secret language that developed over centuries in a society
that has had to signal its great passions in public silence. I fear
that language is rapidly falling apart, but because there remains a
great social stigma, that silent language is still in use.

The communication problem is compounded by the rapid spread of
subculture slang across class boundaries (witness the virtuosity of
white male suburban teens in rich black slang; witness "Queer Eye for
the Straight Guy"). As the slang, posture and gestures of subgroups
are bastardized by the popular media, the signal degrades; terms lose
their meaning and fall prone to misinterpretation. Not only that, but
the rapid breaking down of gender signals in our culture causes
particular problems in your case.

So what do you do? You counter obfuscation with overdefinition. You
counter vagueness with aggressive clarity verging on the absurd. You
use a better, more explicit language, both verbal and gestural, one
that's widely understood by mainstream culture. Basically, you must
appropriate the language of romance to end this non-romance: You're
going to have to break up with your friend.

Of course, since he thinks you're just friends, he may register
surprise when you break up with him. But don't let that stop you. A
man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Pick a nice restaurant, where you don't have to shout and you can
have some privacy. Buy him something nice beforehand. When the time
seems right, explain to him that you've tried hard to make the
relationship work. Tell him it's become clear that you and he have
different needs. Tell him it's over. Tell him not to cry, but hand
him a hankie if you spy a glistening pearl of salty tear begin to
bloom at the inner canthus of his reddening eye.

He may not understand now, but in time he will. And though experience
has shown that it's hard for non-lovers to become friends after they
break up, it doesn't hurt to hold out that hope. Reassure him that
he'll find Mr. Right eventually. And tell him that eventually, once
he's over this, you'd like to be friends.

That should leave him speechless so that you can excuse yourself, pay
the check and leave alone, quietly, through the back way.

- - - - - - - - - - - -



Want more advice from Cary? Read the Since You Asked directory.

salon.com





- - - - - - - - - - - -
About the writer
Cary Tennis is the copy chief and a staff writer at Salon, and he
gives interesting advice.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Oct  2 16:33:58 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:33:58 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <sf7bd8dc.096@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.123358.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes:
>>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.

>How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
>heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
>frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
>F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
>hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.

>Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
>etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
>letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?

~~~~~~

 I remember hearing "hoser" frequently on CBC radio in the late 70s & early
80s and being puzzled by it, but its contexts suggested only slight
rudeness, not indecency or obscenity.  I wasn't aware of the US usage, so
had no association with it, but it was used so freely in Canadian talk,
that I think their gloss *was* different. While Canadian airwaves are not
Bowdlerized to the extent ours are -- "fuck" & "shit," &c., are not bleeped
-- still, context marked this as a milder expression.
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  2 16:45:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:45:44 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bba1fcb88744@[12.107.149.207]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.124544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Doug Wilson writes:
>>>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>>>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>>>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>>>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.
>
>>How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
>>heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
>>frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
>>F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
>>hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.
>
>>Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
>>etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
>>letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?
>
>~~~~~~
>
>  I remember hearing "hoser" frequently on CBC radio in the late 70s & early
>80s and being puzzled by it, but its contexts suggested only slight
>rudeness, not indecency or obscenity.  I wasn't aware of the US usage, so
>had no association with it, but it was used so freely in Canadian talk,
>that I think their gloss *was* different. While Canadian airwaves are not
>Bowdlerized to the extent ours are -- "fuck" & "shit," &c., are not bleeped
>-- still, context marked this as a milder expression.
>A. Murie
>
Maybe "hoser" is like "suck" (cf. Ron Butters's work arguing that
that one isn't really obscene either in current use).

Larry


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct  2 17:09:14 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:09:14 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.130914.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031002/34a3c5b3/attachment.html>

From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Oct  2 17:39:39 2003
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:39:39 -0500
Subject: mistakes were made
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.123939.0500.>

In case anyone collects examples of passive voice used to avoid
responsibility, I post the following excerpt from an email about a
maintenance problem leading to a lack of water:

NOTES WERE POSTED ON THE BATHROOM DOORS, UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS OVERLOOKED
TO SEND OUT A EMAIL MESSAGE.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Oct  2 18:47:41 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:47:41 -0400
Subject: Julekake (1938)
In-Reply-To: <14a.24b8b8d4.2cacef16@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.144741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Barry, but now we need a recipe!  (I have one somewhere, of
course.)  And the K in Knutsen IS pronounced, unlike the transformed Newt
Rockne.

At 11:01 PM 10/1/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>JULEKAKE
>
>    Beverly Flanigan wanted me to do better with "julekake."  The TORONTO STAR
>has a nice cooking column, so I've done better--by two months!
>
>
>    7 October 1938, TORONTO STAR, pg. 30, col. 6:
>    The Hutzelbrot which Nancy had served to her club proved such a success
>that other members of the group said, "Why don't we make some more of those
>good rich fruited breads?  We can practise up ahead for Christmas.  But
>after all
>I don't see why we have to wait for the holidays to have something so good."
>    It was Mrs. Knutsen who served them with a Norwegian Christmas bread
>called Julekake.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 21:20:32 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:20:32 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Hoser=20(1981)?=
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.172032.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Connie Eble so sensibly points out in her book on slang, there is no way
of knowing the etymologies of many such slang terms, especially those with
possibly "obscene" connotations. Frequently, all that can be said is that a term
has a number of possible origins.

Even a term that starts out as perfectly innocent may well be interpreted as
having sexual connotations, particularly if it is used pejoratively and is
used by young people. My work on the history of SUCK points out that SUCK was
used in various perjorative constructions for years without much thought being
given to its having sexual connotations. Only after fellatio itself became a
much less taboo topic did SUCK constructions become suspect, particularly in the
construction "X sucks" (a youth phenomenon of the 1970s that has stuck). Older
people objected all during the 1970s and 1980s and even into the 1990s that
this construction "must" be obscene.

I remember a similar situation in my childhood with "brownie points," a term
that was used to refer to the intangible results that one received for favors
one did for someone in power. Many people who used this term believed that
they were referring to the good deeds done by junior girl scouts. Others thought
it was related to the term "brown-nose," which they believed had to do with
applying one's nose to someone else's butt. I never could figure out why one
would get "points" for putting one's nose in such a place, but it certainly is a
powerful image, nonetheless--enough to sour me on the phrase "brownie
points"at a very early age.

It is not hard to imagine all sorts of non-obscene origins for a pejorative
term HOSER, but it seems to be natural for some people to assume that something
sexually suggestive is going on when they hear a new slang term.


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Oct  2 23:50:38 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:50:38 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195038.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan wrote:

> I had always assumed that being 'hosed' was military slang, deriving
> from the term 'hose down' meaning to spray machine gun fire into an
> area (I don't have a reference for this but I'm pretty sure it was
> used at least as far back as WW II).  Certainly having one's computer
> hosed means having it destroyed, and while that is an extended meaning
> for 'fucked', I think my alternative is at least possible.  I'll buy
> the alternative, sexual, interpretation for 'hoser', however.
>
> Geoff

Flexner, in Listening to America, lists "hoseman" in a fire brigade from
1825 (p. 223), which would tie in with the military usage.

<The Scots Dialect Dictionary> (compiled by Alexander Warrack, 1911) has
an intriguing possibility which requires some phonological and
morphological adjustment, and perhaps a bit of folk etymology.  A
variant of "hose/hosen" is "hoshen" defined as 'a footless stocking' but
also as 'a bad, pithless worker' (p. 272).  A Scots source for a
Canadian term seems possible.

Jim Stalker.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 23:52:57 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:52:57 -0400
Subject: Sauerkraut Pie (1925); Summer 2003 APS Online additions
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SAUERKRAUT PIE

   Not a great part of the American cuisine, but hey, I just gave the Canadians "pablum."


   5 January 1926, TORONTO STAR, pg. 3, col. 2:
   _BOOST SAUERKRAUT PIE_
_Already Has Many Devotees in Parts_
      _Of Windy City_
   Special to The Star by United Press
   Chicago, Jan. 5.--When Jack Dempsey starts training for his next fight, you may see this:
   "Jack Dempsey likes sauerkraut pie, because it is rich in vitamines."
   Sauerkraut pie is a new one--the latest wrinkle in domestic science.  The recipe for sauerkraut pie has just been published by the national kraut packers' association.
   "Sauerkraut pie," announces Roy Irons, Clyde, Ohio, secretary of the kraut packers and inventor of the new viand, "is not only a delicious dessert, but is rich in vitamines."
   Sauerkraut pie first appeared in Chicago--at North Turner Hall.  It was a riot.  Then it swept the loop.  Sauerkraut pie a la mode became a mania.
   The recipe for the new dish follows:
   "Prepare rich pie dough thicker than usual.  Put in the kraut.  Pour the grease from a couple of slices of bacon over the kraut.  Cover the pie with dough.  Then coat the crust with the yolk of a beaten egg.  Bake and serve hot."

---------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMER 2003 APS ONLINE ADDITIONS

   Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE, still no PUCK.
   It's October, time to look ahead to those Summer 2003 APS Online additions.  For the record, here they are (from the current APS NEWS):


Titles being loaded during Summer 2003 include:


The American Law Review (1866-1906)
          Major journal edited by Oliver Wendell Holmes, among other esteemed            lawyers

McBride's Magazine and Lippincott's Magazine (1868-1915)
          Publishing-house organ that featured the likes of Henry James and Oscar            Wilde

The New-Yorker (1836-1841)
          Founded by Horace ("Go west, young man") Greeley, later a            candidate for president

Puck (1877-1918)
          Leading satirical magazine of its time famous for cartoons

Vanity Fair (1859-1863)
          Witty and well-illustrated; doomed by its mocking of the Union cause



Titles coming in Fall 2003 include:


Liberty (Not the Daughter but the Mother of Order) (1881-1908)
          Radical journal supporting anarchy and progressive causes

Musical Visitor (1883-1897)
          Entertainment journal that included famous songs of the day

St. Nicholas; an Illustrated Magazine for Young Folks (1873-1907)
          Beautifully illustrated and including pieces by Louisa May Alcott, Robert            Louis Stevenson, and Mark Twain. Reputedly the first mass-publisher             of the "Pledge of Allegiance."


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Fri Oct  3 00:59:21 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:59:21 -0500
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Similar usage but not at all considered off-color:  the practical shooting
community uses "hoser" for someone who shoots very fast, a "hoser stage" is
a stage set up with targets so close that the shooter doesn't need to use
the sights, both possibly coming from the slang term "bullet hose" for
certain submachineguns.  This sort of naturally leads into the (ineffective)
gun fight style known as "spray and pray" epitomized by the periodic news
report that a particular crime shootout had the police firing multiple tens
of shots with the offender/decedent being hit once or twice.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct  3 01:43:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:43:51 -0400
Subject: Underworld Lingo (LA TImes, 1931)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.214351.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now up to December 31, 1933.  Still no "tinsel town" or "Cobb salad."  We're getting close to "Oscar" and "Shirley Temple cocktail."
   I don't know if this article was picked up by the HDAS.  I'll type just the definitions, but a sentence follows that uses each term in context.


   Underworld "Lingo" Brought Up-to-Date
BEN KENDALL. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1931. p. K3 (2 pages)

_Gangsters have an Esperanto_
   _all their own_

(...)
   A
ALKY:  Straight alcohol.
ALLEY CAT:  A private watchman.
AIREDALE:  A special guard.
ANGLE:  A plan; a lead.
APPLE-KNOCKER:  A yokel; a blunderer.
   B
BANG:  A tip off; information.
BAT:  A woman of the streets.
BENDER:  A thief; cheater; petty.
BLISTER:  Same as bat.
BEEF:  Complaint.
BLOW DOWN:  TO modify; to soften; to quash.
BOILER:  Moonshine still.
BIT:  A share.
BREEZE:  To depart.
BROTHER-IN-LAW:  A man who has two women of the street working for him.
BUG:  A burglar alarm.
BUILD:  TO work up a confidence, or a pretended friendship.
BUZZER:  A badge.
BOOSTER:  A shoplifter.
   C
CANNON:  A pickpocket.
CASES:  The last few dollars.
CONNECTION:  An understanding; an agreement.
CHIV:  A knife.
CHISELER:  A petty grafter; a borrower; a price cutter.
COOKER:  Moonshiner.
CUT:  Same as bit.
CREEPER (creep joint:)  A bawdy house.
   D
DOG-HOUSE:  In disfavor.
DROPPER:  Professional killer; machine gunner: a sure-shot gunman.
   F
FAN:  To search.
FIN:  A five dollar bill.
FINGER:  To accuse.
FOG:  TO shoot.
FRONT:  TO lead the way; to assume blame.
FRITZED:  Out of business; ruined.
   G
GEETUS:  Money, bankroll.
GO:  To come to terms; to agree.
GLOM:  Steal; to take.
GIG:  A dance hall sheik.
GOLDFISH:  Third degree; a police beating.
GUN MOB:  A pickpocket trio.
GREASE:  Trouble, blame.
GRAND:  One thousand dollars.
GOW:  TO catch; to jail.
   H
HAY-WIRE:  Mental aberration.
HEAT:  Same as grease.
HEATER:  A gun.
HEIST:  To hijack; to rob a liquor shipment.
HOOD:  Hoodlum; a petty gangster.
HOT:  Wanted by the police; stolen goods; watched.
   I
IN:  On the inside of a deal; influence.
IT:  Death.
   J
JAM:  Same as grease; trouble.
JACK-ROLL:  To rob a drunk, or sleeping man.
JALOPPY:  Automobile.
JIGGABOO:  Negro.
   K
KEESTER:  A traveling bag.
KICK:  Pockets.
KICK-BACK:  A return of money; a boomerang.
KLINK:  To hit with a black jack, or butt of a gun.
KLUCK:  A boob; a no-good.
KNOCK-OVER:  A raid.
   L
LAM:  To flee.
LEAN:  To strike with the fist.
LEFT-TURN:  A blunderer.
LOOGAN:  A minor hoodlum; a satelite; a helper.
LUG:  A stupid fellow; a hanger-on.
   M
MAKE:  To obtain; covetous; to seek unethically.
McCOY:  Real Bourbon whisky.
MEAT-WAGON:  Ambulance.
McGIMPER:  A man who lives on the earnings of a woman of the streets.
MICKEY FINN:  Knock-out powders.
MIDDLE:  A compromising position; holding the bag.
MUSCLE IN:  To force one's way in for a cut on the profits of a venture.
(Continued on Page Sixteen)
   N
NAILED:  Caught, trapped; arrested.
NANCY:  An effeminate fellow.
NEEDLED:  Near beer, or a beverage into which alcohol or ether has been injected.
NUT:  A debt; the cost; credit.
   O
OFFICE:  Signal.
ON THE SPOT:  Marked for death, or vengeance.
OUT:  An excuse; an alibi.
   P
PAT POKE:  A wallet carried in the hip pocket.
PAY-OFF:  Protection money; monetary tribute.
PLANT:  To produce fraudulent evidence.
POWDER:  To depart; to flee.
PROWLER:  A burglar; one who searches stealthily.
   Q
QUILL:  Genuine whisky.
QUIM:  Anybody's sweetheart.
   R
RACKET:  Any questionable business, or undertaking.
RAP:  An accusation.
RIB:  To influence; to goad.
RIDE:  The fatal journey.
ROCKS:  Diamonds.
ROSCO:  A pistol.
RUN-AROUND:  Deceit; double-cross.
   S
SAP:  A black-jack.
SCREWY:  Crazy.
SCRAM:  Leave; get away; move.
SETTLED:  Imprisoned in the penitentiary.
SHAKE:  Extortion; forced tribute.
SHAG:  Hurry; hustle.
SPILL:  Railroad station.
SPRING:  To release from jail.
STASH:  A hiding place for loot.
STIR:  Pentitentiary.
STALL:  Pickpocket who distracts victim's attention while confederate works.
   T
TAKE:  Share.
TOMMY:  A hand machine gun.
TORPEDO:  A machine gunner; a gnagster bodyguard.
TOPPED:  Hanged.
TUMBLE:  To get wise; understand.
TWIST:  A girl.
   U
UP AND UP:  Square; legitimate.
   W
WHITE:  Gin; alcohol.
WIRE:  The skilled pickpocket who actually extracts the money.
WING-DING:  A fit; berserk.
WRONG:  One who will not confederate.
WORKS:  A beating; third degree; rough treatment.
   Y
YEN:  Desire.
YENTZ:  Outsmart; defeat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct  3 03:39:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:39:11 -0400
Subject: Bacon, Tomato, Lettuce (1931); Taquito, Taco, Menudo (1924, 1931)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.233911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BACON, TOMATO, LETTUCE

   Add this "BTL" to the continuing "BLT" studies.


   Display Ad 43 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 30, 1930. p. A8 (1 page):
2 DELICIOUS SCHOOL DAY
SANDWICHES THAT CHILDREN
CAN MAKE FOR THEMSELVES
   By Alice Adams Proctor
BACON, TOMATO, AND LETTUCE SANDWICH.  2 slices Wonder-Cut Bread (buttered): 4 strips cooked bacon: 2 slices tomato: 2 leaves crisp lettuce: mayonnaise, if desired.
   Place between buttered Wonder-Cut slices, lettuce, 2 slices of tomato and bacone.  This sandwich is excellent toasted, too.
PRUNE, CREAM CHEESE, AND LETTUCE SANDWICH...
   WONDER-CUT BREAD
Continental Baking Co.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TAQUITO, TACO, MENUDO

   OED has 1929 for "menudo."  I produced a lot of "menudo."  Was that my earliest?


   ROMANCE OF CITY SPARED
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 8, 1924. p. A1 (1 page):
_ROMANCE OF CITY SPARED_
_Barbacoa and Chili Menudo Still May Be Served to_
   _Mexicans from Plaza Carts, Council Decrees_
(...)
      TYPICAL SCENES
   The vending wagons in question appear about sunset along the curb near the Old Baker Block.  They are replicas of the booths found around the plaza of every Mexican town, and are tended by blanketed men and women who cry their wares with musical cadence.  One may sup on barbacoa, that gruesome delicacy of a roast sheep's head, or taquitos, chopped meat and pepper wrapped in a tortilla and fried.  The booths are open from sundown to the "Madruga," or false dawn, when the laborers of ditch or ranch come to get their big bowls of menudo, that peasant breakfast dish of stewed tripe, washed down with black coffee.  There is much red pepper in each of these dishes, giving that stimulating effect so much prized by the "gente baja" but which would give acute indigestion to those of nicer tastes.
(...)


   Do You Know That...
Raul Rodriguez. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 17, 1931. p. K7 (2 pages):
(First Page--ed.)
   The tortilla is principally bread, but it is the foundation for many dishes.  An enchilada is nothing but a tortilla with chopped meat and other things rolled up in it.  A taco is a tortilla folded over meat and vegetables and toasted a little.  One of my fondest recollections is of the days when we kids used to improvice tacos at the table at home.
   We would lay a tortilla on the tablecloth, spread a couple of spoonfuls of fried rice on it, garnish it with frijoles, roll it up and go to it.  As we squeezed the top of the taco in biting it, rice and beans would drop out the bottom.  Then mother's knuckles would descend on the crown of the offender, and we would receive a general lecture on table manners.
   Fried tortillas--fried in lard, not butter--are crisp, delicious brown morsels.  They taste just like big cakes of pop corn and make the ideal companion for a good "tamal" or a plate of "frijoles refritos."
   I am glad that so many little awning-stands have sprung up on the Paseo.  Somehow a taco or an enchilada eaten out in the open tastes a little better than the same dish served on a tablecloth--for all that the "senorita's" eyes remind me of summer evenings in Mazatlan.  Then besides, there is the "menudo," which should never be eaten under any roof but a canvas one.
      _Menudo Con Corridos_
   Menudo is a particularly delicious type of soup made out of chicken giblets, which are called in Spanish "menudos."  Other things go into the broth, not the least of which is a dash of chili.  I recall that in that quarter of Nogales known as El Ranchito, a great many menudo stands flourish.  This is because El Ranchito is abundant in "cantinas" and cabarets, and menudo is the world's best restorative after the kinds of an evening one spends in El Ranchito.
   I don't know how they operate on El Paseo, but in Mexico the menudo shops stay open till all hours.  You sit down shivering on the benches before the stand, begin to take your menudo, and anon come a couple of guitar players who start singing for you.
(...)


(There are your first LOS ANGELES TIMES tacos.  "Taco salad" awaits--ed.)


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Oct  3 10:46:49 2003
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:46:49 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.064649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know when the phrase "healthy skepticism" (or "healthy
scepticism") first entered the language? Lexis has a New York Times cite
from 1973, but I imagine it's quite a bit older than that.

Thanks.

Paul


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Oct  3 13:00:14 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:00:14 +0100
Subject: Murphy's Law gets Ig Nobel award
In-Reply-To: <034001c3899b$a66ccbf0$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.140014.0100.>

The Ig Nobel people are certain where Murphy's Law came from, even if
Messrs Popik, Cohen and others are not.

Last night they awarded an Ig Nobel prize (for an achievement which
"cannot or should not be reproduced" -- discuss) to "The late John
Paul Stapp, the late Edward A. Murphy, Jr., and George Nichols, for
jointly giving birth in 1949 to Murphy's Law, the basic engineering
principle that 'If there are two or more ways to do something, and
one of those ways can result in a catastrophe, someone will do it'
(or, in other words: 'If anything can go wrong, it will')".

See http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Oct  3 15:40:14 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:40:14 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.114014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a quote in the Michigan site for Making of America with a date of
1879.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Fri Oct  3 18:16:34 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:16:34 -0700
Subject: this one got past my filter
In-Reply-To: <p04310106bba12773e232@[131.151.65.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.111634.0700.>

this spammer is

        (1) earnest yet completely illiterate, or
        (2) aware of the recent discussion re scrambling some letters in a word,
yet making it understandable, or
        (3) aware of Bayesian spam filters, and knows how to get through
        (4) all of the above
        (5) none of the above.

Well, here's my chance for a PhD from Havrad Universtitee ;)

cheers !

Vida.

(my spell-checker will want to work on this email message, I just know it)

=========================

From: "bimaljit lagzdins" <uqolzmansour at cisqehazelis.com>
To:
Subject: Xq furture of your dreams  crj
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:21:44 -0300

Diploma Porgram

Crtaee a more prospuroes future for yruoself

Recviee a flul diploma form non accrtdieed
univesrities based upon yuor real lfie expireence

You wlil not be tested, or intevriewed
Recevie a Master's, Bechalor's or Doctorate

Clal 24 huors a day 7 dyas a week

1 - 2 7 0 - 8 1 7 - 8 2 4 7


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Oct  3 20:14:26 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 16:14:26 -0400
Subject: Just heard on NPR
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.161426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"We're in a tailspin downwards."

Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion or
mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?

Has any been collecting mixed metaphors for the Usage Panel?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Fri Oct  3 21:12:46 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:12:46 +0100
Subject: Just heard on NPR
In-Reply-To: <E1A5WKD-0003LC-Lw@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.221246.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barnhart wrote:

> "We're in a tailspin downwards."
>
> Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion
> or
> mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?

When my dog goes into a tailspin he goes in circles, but remains
parallel to the floor!

:-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct  4 02:53:50 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:53:50 -0500
Subject: Just heard on NPR (it was a blend)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.215350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:14 PM -0400 10/3/03, Barnhart wrote:
>"We're in a tailspin downwards."
>
>Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion or
>mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?
>
>Has any been collecting mixed metaphors for the Usage Panel?

   This isn't a mixed metaphor but rather a syntactic blend (yes, from
"tailspin" + "downward(s) spiral"). For other examples of redundancy
produced by blending, cf. "rise up" (from "rise" + "get up"), "chase
after" (from "chase" + "run after"), "few in number" (from "few" +
"low in number"), "consult with someone" (from "consult s.o." +
"speak with s.o."), "full up" (from "full" + "filled up"), "pass by
(e.g. a house)" from "pass the house" + "walk by the house."

    I present these examples in my article "Contributions To The Study
of Blending," in _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1:
_Pursuit of Linguistic Insight_, which I edited and published,
pp.81-94. (The above examples appear on p. 89). -- Btw, although
self-published, this volume has received favorable scholarly reviews.

    I also published a monograph _Syntactic Blends In English Parole_ (178 pp.),
(= Forum Anglicum, vol. 15). Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang 1987.  ---
"Parole" in the title is used as the linguist Saussure did, i.e., to
indicate anything that is not part of the standard language
(dialectal features, slips of the tongue, individualisms, etc.). The
monograph presents some 2000 examples of syntactic blending that I
collected over a period of years.  The main insight that emerges from
the list (or, at least, I intended/hoped would emerge) is that
syntactic blending is a feature of speech that occurs more frequently
than has been recognized in the literature of general linguistics).

Gerald Cohen


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 05:29:32 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:29:32 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "honcho" (1945)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.012932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W uses 1955.  OED uses 1947(hancho).

In the Coshocton (OH) Tribune from September 1, 1945, there is a photo of
the commandant of the US POW camp on Guam and a Japanese POW passing him.
The caption is:

    In the best Japanese tradition, a prisoner of war on Guam greets Lt.
Harold F. Gannon of Brooklyn, commandant of the camp, with a so-humble bend
from the waist, accompanied, no doubt, by the traditional hiss of politely
indrawn breath.  This prisoner is the "honcho," or group headman, in the POW
stockade.  Navy photo. (International)


I found the same photo with caption in a Michigan paper four days later.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 05:39:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:39:22 EDT
Subject: Manhattan slang (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.013922.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   An enjoyable slang article, from Ancestry.com.


   9 October 1936, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 8,
col. 8:
_Trails on Broadway_
_With George Ross_
   NEW YORK.--The Manhattan linguist is not a product of a School of
Languages.  He is a slang expert.  He must know pidgeon English, TImes Square prattle,
ball park banter, Tin Pan Alley lingo and the strange argot of Madison Square
Garden.  For each of Gotham's coteries has a tongue of its own.
   This is the fantastic jargon of the soda jerkers: "Axle grease" is butter,
"pin a rose" is to place a slice of onion on a hamburger, and a "midget from
Harlem" is a small chocolate soda.  "One on the city" is a request for a glass
of water, "toast two on a slice of squeal" is ham and eggs and a "George
Eddy" is the chap who leaves no tip.
   Who is "George Eddy"?  "Probably some guy," one of the soda dispensers
told me, "who came in every afternoon a long time ago for a 'twist it, choke it
and make it squeal'--and never dropped a dime."  A "twist it, choke it and make
it squeal" is a plain, ordinary egg malted milk!
--------------------------------------------
   The town's taxi-drivers have a tongue which baffles even the most talented
Manhattan interpreters.  The taximeter is a "glom," a "rip" is a call that
averaged over two dollars and a "howcase" is the label handed to a new
conveyance.  If a driver gets an order from a dreamy-eyed couple to drive them around
the park he tells his confreres that he had a "mugger rip."  The decrepit,
wheezing cabs which rattle along the city's streets are known as "tin fannys."
And if you happed to climb into a cab manned by a particularly talkative pilot
there is some comfort in knowing that the boys in the profession would dub him
"a coffee-pot lawyer"...
   Even the salesgirls in this town have developed a jargon of their own.  A
"B. H." is a bargain hunter, and "the reds" are those customers who argue with
a salesgal to a point bordering on exhaustion.  A shopper who unfolds her
life story while purchasing a pair of stockings or a handkerchief is known as
"Gabby Gertie," and "a sub-deb" is a little old lady who wears junior miss sizes.
 When the department buyer heaves into view, the girls behind the counter
have their own conversational code to tip-off their co-workers--simply "the Queen
Bee is coming."...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Up around the Yankee stadium and the Polo grounds, slang is a finely
developed art.  And yet the boys in the grandstand and those down on the base-paths
 each speak a set of phrases that is totally different.  To a baseball fan, a
scratch hit can mean but one thing, but to the fellows in uniform it can be a
"nubber," "blooper," "bleeder" or "squib."
   The man with the score-card calls a left-handed pitcher "a south-paw," but
the ball players themselves would more than likely call him "cockeyed,"
"twirly thumbs" or "corkscrew."  A "sugarbrush" is a rookie, and a good curve ball
is "a sugar handle."  Ballplayers never speak of a "beanball" or "dusting
so-and-so off."  With them it's "sticking it in somebody's ear."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
   But leave it to Broadway to spawn the most bewildering and colorful
contributions to Manhattan's collection of slang.
  For example: an actor is a "MacAvoy" when he steals bows, a "short con" is
a small time moocher, and all piano players are "organ grinders."  When a
stage director says the spotlight on the feminine per- "spot the doll" he means
"throw former." (A word missing here?--ed.) "Laying an egg" means that a show or
entertainer flops badly; and an acrobat has to go through life with the tag
"kinker" attached to him.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 06:59:54 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:59:54 EDT
Subject: Manhattan slang (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.025954.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The same article appears (uncut?) in NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), 6 October
1936, pg. 4, cols. 7-8.  I'll type some additions, found at the end of the
article.  From col. 8:

   With them it's "sticking it in somebody's ear."
   But leave it to Casey Stengel, the managerial genius of the doddering
Dodgers, to concoct the game's latest bit of idiom.  To Casey a fly-ball is a "can
o' corn."  Why?  Casey doesn't know himself.  (HDAS has Jan. 11, 1937 for
"can of corn"--ed.)
---------------------------------------------
_Theatrical phrases_
   But leave it to Broadway to spawn the most bewildering and colorful
contributions to Manhattan's collection of slang.
   For example: an actor is a "MacAvoy" when he steals bows, a "short con" is
a small time moocher, and all piano players are "organ grinders."  When a
stage director says "spot the doll" he means "throw the spotlight on the feminine
performer."  "Laying an egg" means that a show or entertainer flops badly;
and an acrobat has to go through life with the tag "kinker" attached to him.
   "Carrying the torch" is now--via Hollywood and the radio--familiar to
everyone but it's one of Broadway's oldest slang terms.  And when you hear a press
agent tell a companion that "they're shooting deer in the joint," he's
referring to the wide open spaces bereft of customers in the theater he's
exploiting.
   A newcomer isn't a greenhorn; he's a "Johnny-Come-Lately" and a "a luby"
is a dunce or clumsy performer.  Whern a Broadwayite is feeling low he's "got
the weeps."  The word "hot" along the roaring forties can mean a number of
things.  If a man is "hot" the odds are two to one he'll be shot before the week
is out.  When merchandise is "hot" everyone knows that it has been stolen--and
yet the sweetest compliment you can bestow upon a trumpeter is to tell him
he's "hot."
   Erudite debunkers of Broadway slang insist that most of it has been
adapted from convict jargon, and that it has arrived in the vicinity of Times Square
via Sing Sing, Dannemore and San Quentin.  But tell that to a loyal
Broadwayite and he's likely to retort: "Can that stuff, or I'll put the finger on you.
Now scram!"


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Oct  4 12:51:20 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:51:20 +0100
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.135120.0100.>

A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?

He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain’t over until the
Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
finally defeated until the session was adjourned.

Your comments will be most welcome ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct  4 14:31:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:31:09 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
In-Reply-To: <034001c3899b$a66ccbf0$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.103109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Paul McFedries wrote:

> Does anyone know when the phrase "healthy skepticism" (or "healthy
> scepticism") first entered the language? Lexis has a New York Times cite
> from 1973, but I imagine it's quite a bit older than that.

Here's a still earlier one:

1876 William Elliot Griffis _The Mikado's Empire_ 83  Under their
influence, and that of circumstances, have been shaped the unique ideals
of the samurai; and by it a healthy skepticism, amidst dense superstition,
has been maintained.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct  4 14:40:23 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:40:23 -0500
Subject: "herring-broth" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.094023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A while back, George Thompson shared with ads-l an 1807 incident in
which an Irish woman reacted furiously to a request for herring
broth. I wrote up the brief ads-l discussion of this matter in draft
form, and now some additional comments have come from an Irish
Studies group.
      Those comments may be of interest to ads-l, both because of the
herring-broth matter itself and because of the terms "herringchoker,"
"herron", "mackerel snapper," and "Two-boaters."  I have been unable
to get to the library for the past week and am therefore unaware what
DARE et al. may have to say about them.
     The new comments appear below my signoff. First, though, my
thanks go to John Morgan and the Irish Studies discussion group for
their assistance. When the article appears (in two months?) I'll be
happy to provide a complimentary copy to the Irish Studies
participants. (It's co-authored by George Thompson and me, with due
credit given throughout).

Gerald Cohen
editor, Comments on Etymology


[recently added to draft of article on "herring broth"]:

        John Morgan notified the Irish Studies discussion group
(irishstudies at lists.services.wisc.edu) about the 1807 'herring-broth'
incident and soon received several insightful replies:

1) from Carmel McCaffrey (cmc at jhu.edu): 'Actually, as a native Irish
person I know that broth was always the food of poor people who just
boiled or
simmered bones and the like into a broth.  In Dublin there is an
expression to describe the eating habits of the poor "your dinner's
poured out."'

2) from Jim MacKillop (pmackkillop at yahoo.com): '..."herringchoker" is
an archaic insult for my own ethnic group, the Scottish Gaels (mostly
Catholic, former Jacobites) of Nova Scotia.  It has been so
ameliorated that the abbreviated form, "herron," is now a term of
rough affection.  More significantly when my father migrated to
Boston c. 1923, "herringchoker" was a term of derision used by Boston
Irish, who considered themselves a cut above, for the New World Gaels
of Nova Scotia.
        'In other contexts, "herringchoker" has also denoted poor
Scandinavians.'

3) from Catherine Shannon (CBS38 at aol.com): 'Re: herring issue--I too,
born and bred near Boston, recall the use of the term "herringchoker"
to denote those who came down to the area from the Canadian
Maritimes.  Jim is correct that the implication was that they weren't
quite as Irish as we were who had parents and grandparents who came
directly from Ireland to Boston.  There was also another term
suggesting a bit of smug superiority over those "Irish" who came from
the Maritimes---they were referred to as "Two boaters." Does anyone
else recall that usage?
        'Mackerel snapper was a term of derision that applied rather
broadly among the lower echelons of WASP Boston to all the local
RC's.  Too bad our television age and pc'ness has made our language
less graphic and imaginative in some respects.'
        [G. Cohen: In the last paragraph, Catherine Shannon is
replying to Jim Doan's e-mail: 'I'm just guessing, but could it be
comparable to calling someone a "mackerel snapper," one of the few
anti-Catholic terms of derision I remember from my youth?  In other
words, he [of the 1807 article] made an immediate assumption that the
couple were Irish, therefore Catholic (and fish-eating), as well as
presumably of a lower socioeconomic level than the individual who
entered the apartment.' ----- John Morgan then added: 'I do know that
herring and mackerel are the fish ordinaire in Ireland.']


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Oct  4 16:05:05 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:05:05 -0400
Subject: Manhattan slang
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.120505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry quotes:
 When a
stage director says the spotlight on the feminine per- "spot the doll" he means
"throw former." (A word missing here?--ed.)
~~~~~~~~~~
Just a case of misplaced lines in a narrow column:

When a stage director says
"spot the doll" he means "throw
the spotlight on the feminine per-
former"

A. Murie


From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct  4 16:34:09 2003
From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:34:09 -0400
Subject: "herring-broth" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.123409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<Jim is correct that the implication was that they weren't
quite as Irish as we were who had parents and grandparents who came
directly from Ireland to Boston.  There was also another term
suggesting a bit of smug superiority over those "Irish" who came from
the Maritimes---they were referred to as "Two boaters." Does anyone
else recall that usage?>

I don't, strictly speaking, recall the usage of "two boaters," but I do
remember that my Boston born and bred father (himself the grandson of a two
boater) once told me about the expression. I don't remember if he said it
was used in his youth (early 20th c.) or if he was referring to the usage of
a prior generation.

Phil Cleary


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Oct  4 18:16:01 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:16:01 -0700
Subject: retrosexual
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.111601.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two versions of retrosexual

1.  New Yorker cartoon: He's more of a retrosexual.
(Woman to another about her untidy husband watching
TV.)
http://www.cartoonbank.com/assets/1/68276_m.gif

2, Slangsite.com:
Retrosexual, reterosexual: A person, of either sex,
who is convinced that sex was better in the good old
days, even if she hadn't actually been born back then.

Example: Every time I see that picture of Marilyn
Monroe with her skirt blowing above her thighs in _The
Seven-Year Itch_, I start feeling retrosexual.
http://www.slangsite.com/slang/R.html

(3. Name of a band.)


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct  4 20:25:36 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:25:36 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.162536.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Hop, Two, Three, Four: Frog-Marching Into the Lexicon 
By David Montgomery
Washington Post  1 Oct 
http://tinyurl.com/pq77

  Linguists are loving it. Wayne Glowka, chairman of the New Words Committee for the American Dialect Society, was waking up to CNN yesterday when he heard "frog-marched out of the White House," and he scribbled it down. "Frog-march" will be a candidate for the society's annual list of new or newly prominent expressions, he says. 

  [Jesse Sheidlower, principal North American editor for the OED,] says "frog-marched out of the White House" could even make the revised edition now being assembled.

Seán Fitzpatrick
Upper Darby, PA 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 21:30:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 17:30:51 -0400
Subject: Natural State (Arkansas) (1975)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.173051.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Natural State"--a nickname of Arkansas--is not in the revised OED.  There are 37,200 Google hits for "Natural State" and "Arkansas."
   "Wonder State" was the official Arkansas nickname from 1923, deriving from the state's "natural wonders."  It's little wonder that a change was made.
   I ran across this while looking for some digital materials for Arkansas...Just wondering: Does this mean that everything that comes out of Arkansas is natural?


(GOOGLE)
http://www.50states.com/bio/nickname1.htm
Arkansas
 Officially known as “The Natural State”, Arkansas is known throughout the country for its natural beauty, clear lakes and streams and abundance of natural wildlife.
source: http://www.sosweb.state.ar.us/aboutark/


(WORLDCAT)
Arkansas is a natural :
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Corp Author(s):
Arkansas. Dept. of Parks and Tourism.�

Publication:
Little Rock, Ark. : The Department,

Year:
1970-1979?

Description:
1 sheet : ill., map ; 43 x 56 cm. folded to 22 x 10 cm.

Language:
English

SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:
Recreation areas -- Arkansas.�

Class Descriptors:
 Dewey:  333.78

Other Titles:
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Document Type:
Book


(WORLDCAT)
Title:
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Corp Author(s):
Arkansas. Dept. of Parks and Tourism.�

Publication:
[Little Rock,

Year:
1975

Description:
col. map; on sheet 44 x 56 cm. fold. to 22 x 10 cm.; Scale ca. 1:1,600,000.

Language:
English

Standard No:
LCCN: 75-695720

SUBJECT(S)

Geographic:
Arkansas -- Maps, Tourist.�

Note(s):
Title from verso./ Relief shown by shading./ Includes indexes to points of interest and text./ Descriptive text on 20 points of interest, location maps, and col. illus. on verso.

Class Descriptors:
 LC:  G4001.E635 1975; Geographic: 4001

Material Type:
Published map (pcm)

Document Type:
Map


(WORLDCAT)
Follow your senses to the natural state--Arkansas.

Publication:
[Little Rock, Ark. : Tourism Division, Arkansas Dept. of Parks and Tourism,

Year:
1976

Description:
[26] p. : col. ill., maps (part fold.) ; 22 cm.

Language:
English

SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:
Recreation areas -- Arkansas.�

Geographic:
Arkansas -- Description and travel.�

Note(s):
PA 218.8: F 6/ Cover title./ Includes a map of state parks, information on park facilities and a  list of regional tourist associations.

Document Type:
Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 22:26:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:26:43 -0400
Subject: Topeppo (1934)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.182643.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CORRECTION:  The "BTL" article (previous post) I headed "1931" was 1930, as it was in the text.  I copy directly the ProQuest header so I can't get that wrong.


   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at the end of June 1935.  Keep going!  I need my Caesar Salad and Margarita and California Roll!
   This is of interest to you tomato people out there.


      THE TOPEPPO
       ROSS H GAST.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 18, 1934.                   p. I10 (1 page):
   Curing recent weeks I have had several requests for information on the "topeppo," quite commonly believed to be a cross between the pepper and the tomato.  There has been a considerable amount of controversy on this vegetable, which is a variety of pepper with extremely heavy flesh.  The name "topeppo" was given it by a salesman.  It is a native of Mexico, I understand, but I do not know the Mexican name.  The topeppo is an excellent salad pepper and a very dersirable addition to any garden, but no one should plant it in anticipation of securing a "cross between a tomato and pepper."   ROSS H. GAST.


(Wouldn't that be a "topper"?--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 22:57:07 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:57:07 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.185707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since the HDAS cites "frog" as a British term for a policeman from
1857/1859, and "Frog's March" from 1871 and later, why do we assume that the
term implied being marched like a frog instead of being marched BY frogs?
SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fitzpatrick" <grendel.jjf at verizon.net>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"


Hop, Two, Three, Four: Frog-Marching Into the Lexicon
By David Montgomery
Washington Post  1 Oct
http://tinyurl.com/pq77

  Linguists are loving it. Wayne Glowka, chairman of the New Words Committee
for the American Dialect Society, was waking up to CNN yesterday when he
heard "frog-marched out of the White House," and he scribbled it down.
"Frog-march" will be a candidate for the society's annual list of new or
newly prominent expressions, he says.

  [Jesse Sheidlower, principal North American editor for the OED,] says
"frog-marched out of the White House" could even make the revised edition
now being assembled.

Seán Fitzpatrick
Upper Darby, PA


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:33:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:33:48 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.193348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED (now on "n') add it?
   Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!



      OKLAHOMA AND OAKIE SAME THING
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 25, 1929.                   p. B11 (2 pages):
_OKLAHOMA_
_AND OAKIE_
_SAME THING_
_Comic Derives Name from_
_Home State; Now Plays in_
_"Fast Company"_
   Jack of all trade--master of no particular one--but what a lot of fun he has!  In other words, Jack Oakie, Paramount's playboy, the secret sorrow of at least half of the scrren's fair damsels and the despair of directors.  He was born in Sedalia, Mo., reared in Indiana and Oklahoma and blessed with a comedy complex which enables him to portray sailor roles, play baseball, football and the calrinet, all in the order named.
   In order to dispel any illusions at the start, let it be known that Oakie is not his real name.  When he packed the toothbrush and spare collar and sought his fortunes in New york City. he was dubbed "Oaklie," in honor of the former residence in Oklahoma.  But "Oaklie" was too difficult and the title became "Oakie."  It stuck.  He is now Jack Oakie, and anyone is privileged to try and find out his real name.
(...)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:37:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:37:43 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.193743.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   On second thought, the article fudges.  It's not "Oaklie" because that's too difficult to say.
   It's "Oakie" and not "Oaklie" because he's not a girl who can't say no.
   There's no business like show business like no business I know.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:41:31 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:41:31 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.194131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Of course, his read name was Lewis Delaney Offield.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)


 He is now Jack Oakie, and anyone is privileged to try and find out his real
name.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 00:54:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:54:39 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.205439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and "hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post should read "During," not "Curing."



      "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
   Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled the "original hokey-pokey man."


      SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
       Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
_SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
_He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey_
   _Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
      _Special to The New York Times._
   BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here to-day of heart disease.
   Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."


(If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his middle initial?--ed.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 01:08:33 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:08:33 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
In-Reply-To: <28CCF044.6396CEDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.210833.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED
> (now on "n') add it?
>    Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are
> stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!

"Oakie" is in HDAS, with a 1918 citation.  With the spelling "Okie," it's
in OED and probably the other dictionaries as well.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:13:32 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:13:32 -0700
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
In-Reply-To: <28CCF044.6396CEDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.181332.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED (now on "n') add it?
>    Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!

I've never seen the "a" spelling before.

"Okie" (and we're OK!)

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:22:59 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:22:59 -0700
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <4A5621FF.5F8970B4.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.182259.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and "hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post should read "During," not "Curing."

>       "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
>               The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
>    Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled the "original hokey-pokey man."

>       SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
>        Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
> _SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
> _He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
>       _Special to The New York Times._
>    BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here to-day of heart disease.
>    Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."
>
> (If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his middle initial?--ed.)

I searched "hokey pokey" and "Samuel Dunham" and, just like Barry sez,
found nothing. Messin' around with the search terms, though, I found
this: <http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html>

"It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after
first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth
century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration. By 1850,
Italian vendors called "hokey-pokey" men made their way through the
streets of the city selling the chilled sweet stuff from small wagons
that were pulled by goats."

Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sun Oct  5 01:35:27 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:35:27 -0400
Subject: Natural State (Arkansas) (1975)
In-Reply-To: <347EEAC5.01D0D102.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.213527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I lived there, Arkansas's slogan was "Land of Opportunity."

(It was.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:43:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:43:50 -0400
Subject: "Pie a la Mode" originator? (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.214350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   How do I find these things?...It's not totally unknown, but there aren't more than a handful of hits for "Townsend" and "pie a la mode."
   I do not say that the following is correct.   OED has "pie a la mode" from 1903.



      CHARLES W. TOWNSEND
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1936.                   p. 23 (1 page):
_CHARLES W. TOWNSEND_
_Cambridge, N. Y., Man Credited_
_With Originating Pie a la Mode._
   CAMBRIDGE, Mass., May 20 (AP).--Charles Watson Townsend, one-time concert pianist, who, tradition has it, inadvertently originated pie a la mode here fifty-two years ago, died today in Mary McClellan Hospital.  His age was 87.
   As the story goes, he amazed waiters in a local hotel by asking for ice cream on his pie.  He like it so well he ordered it on another occasion in Delmonico's restaurant in New York.  The restaurant then added the dessert to its menu.
   The Hotel Cambridge here specializes in the dish and points out the table at which Townsend was dining when he created it.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.cambridgehotel.com/pie.html
        The History of Pie a la Mode

        (Reprint from Sealtest Magazine)
 With Apple Pie a la Mode holding such a special niche in the taste of the American public, it is appropriate at this time that we turn to historians long enough to record for prosperity the origin of this delectable delicacy of the day.

We have it that the late Professor Charles Watson Townsend, who lived alone in a Main Street apartment during his later years and dined regularly at the Hotel Cambridge, now known as the Cambridge Hotel, was wholly responsible for the blessed business.

One day in the mid 90’s, Professor Townsend was seated for dinner at a table when the late Mrs. Berry Hall observed that he was eating ice cream with his apple pie. Just like that she named it "Pie a la Mode", and we often wondered why, and thereby brought enduring fame to Professor Townsend and the Hotel Cambridge.

Shortly thereafter the Professor visited New York City, taking with him a yen for his favorite dessert new name and all. At the fashionable Delmonico’s he nonchalantly ordered Pie a la Mode and when the waiter stated that he never heard of such a thing the Professor expressed a great astonishment.

"Do you mean to tell me that so famous an eating place as Delmonico’s has never heard of Pie a la Mode, when the Hotel Cambridge, up in the village of Cambridge, NY serves it every day? Call the manager at once, I demand as good service here as I get in Cambridge."

The manager came running, and the Professor repeated his remarks.

"Delmonico’s never intends that any other restaurant shall get ahead of us" said the manager and forthwith ordered that Pie a la Mode be featured on the menu every day. A newspaperman representing the New York Sun was seated at a nearby table and overheard the conversation. The next day the Sun carried a feature story of the incident and it was picked up by many other newspapers. In no time at all, Pie a la Mode became standard on menus all over the country.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:51:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:51:11 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.215111.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While the obit says Mr. Dunham originated the "hokey-pokey or ice cream
brick," many of the ancestry hits I"ve found from 1890-1900 strongly say
that the "hokey-pokey" was what we know today as a "snow cone" or "shave
ice."   The OED cites are unclear.

I'll post more as I find it.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Towse" <self at TOWSE.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)


> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and
"hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post
should read "During," not "Curing."
>
> >       "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
> >               The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.:
Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
> >    Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and
originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died
at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug
fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled
the "original hokey-pokey man."
>
> >       SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
> >        Special to The New York Times..       New York Times
(1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p.
11 (1 page):
> > _SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
> > _He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
> >       _Special to The New York Times._
> >    BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and
originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died
at his home here to-day of heart disease.
> >    Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a
penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He
lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and
took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."
> >
> > (If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK
TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his
middle initial?--ed.)
>
> I searched "hokey pokey" and "Samuel Dunham" and, just like Barry sez,
> found nothing. Messin' around with the search terms, though, I found
> this: <http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html>
>
> "It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after
> first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth
> century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration. By 1850,
> Italian vendors called "hokey-pokey" men made their way through the
> streets of the city selling the chilled sweet stuff from small wagons
> that were pulled by goats."
>
> Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
> Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
> men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?
>
> --
> Sal
>
> Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
> terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 02:09:01 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:09:01 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <3F7F7273.1000507@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.220901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
>Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
>men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?

Why is it thought that "hokey-pokey" referred to ice cream long before Sam
was born?

(1) When was Sam born?

(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about 1880?

The quotation about the Italians and goats is apparently from a 2002 book.
Is the information verifiable?

-- Doug Wilson


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 02:28:44 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:28:44 -0700
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031004214908.025911d0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.192844.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
>> Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
>> men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?
>
>
> Why is it thought that "hokey-pokey" referred to ice cream long before Sam
> was born?
>
> (1) When was Sam born?

According to the ref: 1877.

The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.

> (2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
> 1880?

"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
the Italian ice-cream peddlars. Check

<http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hokey-pokey%22+%22ice+cream%22+italian>

> The quotation about the Italians and goats is apparently from a 2002 book.
> Is the information verifiable?

Ah, I'm a bit of an amateur. I defer to the Shapiros &al. on the list.

The term "hokey pokey" for the Italian ice cream vendors "is thought to
have derived" from the Italian "ecco un poco" (here's a bit /or/ try a
sample -- rather than the usual etymological derivation from the same
roots as hocus-pocus.

The Italian vendor references (both USAn and Brit) can be found in Web
sites from hither and yon and *not* in the identical language, which is
what usually twiddles my "oh yeah?" antennae as a clue that there's
copying-n-pasting and probably not much of substance going on.

Before today, I only knew of the hokey-pokey in a left-foot-in and
right-foot-out universe.

Et vu?

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 02:46:00 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:46:00 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <3F7F81DC.8070301@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.224600.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>(1) When was Sam born?
>
>According to the ref: 1877.

I think this is erroneous. The quotation reports his death as an "aged
citizen" in 1907, right?

>The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.

Can one pre-1877 citation be provided?

>>(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
>>1880?
>
>"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
>the Italian ice-cream peddlars.

OED shows "hokey-pokey" referring to ice cream (1884-5). I find "hokey
pokey man" in the desired sense from late 19th century but I take this as
approximately "ice cream man", with "hokey pokey" = "ice cream
[product/novelty/item]".

No reason "ecco un poco" or so couldn't be the origin ... of course altered
to "hokey-pokey" to match the pre-existing English phrase, = "hocus-pocus"
apparently. Evidence is lacking though AFAIK.

But again: is there evidence of use of the expression for ice cream OR
vendor before 1880 or so? [Maybe there is, I don't know. Current OED for
example is not available to hoi polloi. (^_^)]

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 03:47:01 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:47:01 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.234701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think Doug is correct.  Using Ancestry.com, I found no cites from
1860-1886 in any context discussing ice cream.   But an 1887 cite is
interesting:

>From the Statesville(NC) Landmark, June 30, 1887, p. ?, col. 4,
   Titled "OUR NEW YORK LETTERS"

     Down town on the narrow streets where the crowds press sunstrokes
happen.  The Ice cart is a cool thing and in some of the poorer parts of the
city it is looked for as eagerly as the mail train at a country station.
Little dirty-legged children run after it, gather about it when it stops and
when the iceman breaks off a big lump scramble for the chips  The small boy
is never so happy as when he can steal a ride on the ice cart, unless,
indded, it is when he can buy "hokey-pokey" ice cream.  Hokey-pokey ice
cream is manufactured and sold by the Italians.  Its composition is a
mystery.  It is hawked about the streets in freezers on little hand-carts
bearing the legend in fantastic letters, "Hokey-Pokey Ice Cream."  The small
boy, by hook or by crook, obtains a cent and makes for that cart.  The
Italian removes the top of the freezer, dips up a dab of parti-colored ice
cream with a large spoon and serves it on a bit of brown paper.  The small
boy takes two or three little bites at it, then licks it all up and sucks
the paper.

And another cite, from the Bangor(ME) Daily Whig and Courier, June 6, 1891,
p. 1, col.  4

     The Italian "hokey pokey" cart which has appeared here in Brewer in
summers past, was yesterday again upon the streets.  The gong attached to it
sounds so nearly like the electric car gongs, that at least one person and
probably more, was deceived by it, and hastened to catch the car, which was
nowhere in sight.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)


> >>(1) When was Sam born?
> >
> >According to the ref: 1877.
>
> I think this is erroneous. The quotation reports his death as an "aged
> citizen" in 1907, right?
>
> >The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.
>
> Can one pre-1877 citation be provided?
>
> >>(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
> >>1880?
> >
> >"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
> >the Italian ice-cream peddlars.
>
> OED shows "hokey-pokey" referring to ice cream (1884-5). I find "hokey
> pokey man" in the desired sense from late 19th century but I take this as
> approximately "ice cream man", with "hokey pokey" = "ice cream
> [product/novelty/item]".
>
> No reason "ecco un poco" or so couldn't be the origin ... of course
altered
> to "hokey-pokey" to match the pre-existing English phrase, = "hocus-pocus"
> apparently. Evidence is lacking though AFAIK.
>
> But again: is there evidence of use of the expression for ice cream OR
> vendor before 1880 or so? [Maybe there is, I don't know. Current OED for
> example is not available to hoi polloi. (^_^)]
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 04:40:08 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:40:08 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <3F7ED058.32049.E0BC1A@localhost>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.004008.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:51 PM +0100 10/4/03, Michael Quinion wrote:
>A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
>inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
>recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
>He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
>at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
>at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
>lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain’t over until the
>Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
>finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
>Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
>--

Mike,

This was a question I posed to the list a few years ago, and below
are the responses I got.  Southern stories seem to be very much in
evidence, but no opera singers at Texas legislative sessions...

Larry
==============

Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:04:07 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      a seasonal query

(for any season including both an impeachment trial and a Super Bowl...)

Can anyone help pin down the origin of the expression frequently cited in
sports contexts, and occasionally elsewhere, that "It ain't over till the
fat lady sings", used as a warning not to count one's victory chickens
until they've hatched?  Since I've also heard this in what I assume is the
full form, "The opera ain't (or isn't) over till the fat lady sings", I
assume a possibly apocryphal story along the lines of some sports buff
attending an opera (probably a football or basketball coach dragged there
by a spouse) who imagines that the evening must be drawing blessedly to a
close, only to realize the force of the above generalization. Fans can now
be seen on occasion holding up posters depicting a Wagnerian soprano in
full coloratura mode once the crucial field goal has been thrown in the
basket or kicked through the uprights by the home team.  And while I doubt
such posters will be held up at the Met any time soon, I wouldn't be
surprised to hear the same sentiment dripping from the lips of a Republican
senator or House "manager" sometime in the next couple of days.  In fact a
quick scan of Nexis includes a citation in which a financial speculator
comments that "the fat lady hasn't sung yet", i.e. all possibilities are
still open.  But who was the first to capture the allusion and unleash it
on a previously unwitting sporting world?  (I'd look it up, but I'm not
sure where or how.)

Larry

P.S.  I'm NOT looking for the semantically related Yogi Berra-ism, "It
ain't over till it's over", although it would be interesting to confirm
that it really did originate with Yogi and not before.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:51:09 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

This expression originated in Southern proverbial lore.  The key evidence
is a 1976 booklet entitled _Southern Words and Sayings_, which has an
entry, "Church ain't out 'till the fat lady sings."  There is an excellent
discussion in Ralph Keyes, _Nice Guys Finish Seventh_.  Keyes reports
several informants who recalled hearing the expression for decades before
it burst into national consciousness during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff
series.  One of the informants said "he never was quite sure what this
saying referred to, but thought that it 'was tied to the perception of
those like me who don't know much about opera that when the fat lady
sings, the opera's about to end.'"  On the other hand, the use of "church"
in the earliest known printed citation suggests the possibility of an
origin not specifically tied to opera.
==================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:54:12 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

My last message may not have really answered the question as to who
unleased the "fat lady" on the sports world.  Bullets coach Dick Motta,
who popularized the slogan during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff series,
got it from _San Antonio Express-News_ sportswriter Dan Cook.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:12:35 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

WHEN A CHURCH AIN'T A CHURCH (AND A SCHOOL AIN'T A SCHOOL NEITHER)

Not necessarily Fred. In my basketball playing days (and even after), the
phrases "School is out" and "Church is out" referred to "intense periods of
play or feverish activity in a game (or even in a fight), when the
participants tried their hardest." Such phrases were even used as
encouragment to fellow players. "OK, school's out. Let's get in there and
kick ass." It seemed also (as my invented routine suggests) to indicate
that any "delicacy" was about to be discarded.

This might be the "church" referred to in the 1976 quote, not making it
into print until long after the height of my basketball career (50's).

dInIs (the jump-shooter)
=======================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:29 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Alice Faber <faber at lenny.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Fat Lady Singing

I've always associated the phrase "the opera ain't over til the fat lady
sings" with Abe Lemons, who was coach of the University of Texas basketball
team in the mid-70s, when I was a graduate student there. I have vivid
memories (perhaps spurious!) of a stack of books by or about Lemons
on display in the Co-op (which, in Austin, is a di-syllable!)
featuring somehow the phrase "fat lady" in the title.
==========================


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sun Oct  5 04:57:28 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:57:28 -0500
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.235728.0500.>

 >Date:    Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:51:20 +0100
 >From:    Michael Quinion <TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG>
 >Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?

 >A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
 >inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
 >recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?

 >He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
 >at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
 >at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
 >lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain’t over until the
 >Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
 >finally defeated until the session was adjourned.

There are many strange stories about the Texas legislature, particularly
toward the end of a session.   Some of them are true; but this doesn't
fit the pattern of the true ones.

At the end of the session, the legislators are in a rush to get
everything over with quickly.  Some rather strange things have passed;
for example, a resolution honoring someone for  his work in combatting
the population problem.  (Most of the legislators weren't familiar with
his name.  He was better known as the Boston Strangler.)

Having an opera singer perform would've delayed the legislators, it
seems to me.  And the Texas Legislature has never been known for its
cultural refinement.

If this was true, I would expect the _Almanac of American Politics_ to
have mentioned it at least once.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 07:19:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 03:19:51 EDT
Subject: "Pie a la Mode" (Fork? Spoon?)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.031951.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Ancestry.com.


   27 May 1936, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 1 editorial:
      _PIE A LA MODE._
   Surely no list of great American inventors is complete without the name of
Charles Watson Townsend, father of pie a la mode, who has passed away in New
York Stste at a great age.  It is to be regretted that the original creation,
due to its perishable nature, is not available for the Smithsonian Institution
or some kindred agency.
   We believe the luncheon clubs and all kinds of citizens who gather at noon
in an atmosphere of good fellowship and chicken croquettes followed by apple
pie with a top dressing of ice cream, will see the propriety of paying tribute
by a moment of silence at their next meetings to the memory of a benefactor.
To the best of our knowledge, it was never officially settled whether pie a
la mode is played with the spoon or fork or both, though common preference
seems to lean to the fork alone.  In any event, millions of his fellow men are
indebted to Mr. Townsend for lending flavor--usually vanilla--to their daily
lives.


   29 August 1963, Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada), pg. 7, cols. 3-5:
_Pie a la Mode Invention_
_Of American Restaurants_
   CAMBRIDGE, N.Y. (UPI)--Pie a la mode is as American as baseball or the
Virginia reel but its origin eludes those not aware of this small community in
the Adirondack foothill.
   In 1896, a music teacher, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, regularly
concluded his dinners at the Hotel Cambridge with the combination of apple pie
and ice cream.
   When Mrs. Berry Hall, an employee at the hotel first saw the creation, she
gasped, "pie a la mode."  The name was acceptable enough to Townsend, who
wasn't fussy as long as his favorite dessert was served.
   Later that year at fashionable Delmonico's restaurant in New York City,
Townsend requested "his" dessert.  When the waiter disclaimed knowledge of "pie
a la mode," Townsend was astonished and then indignant.  He called the manager
and described how a little hotel in Cambridge, N.Y. regularly served the
dish.
   With Delmonico's reputation at stake, the flustered manager ordered "pie a
la mode" featured on the daily menu.
   A reporter from the old New York Sun overheard the conversation and the
emergence of "pie a la mode" was told in a feature story in the daily the next
day.  Other newspapers across the nation followed suit and the dessert was soon
a household standby.
   Why did the phrase "a la mode" become so quickly associated with a mound
of ice cream on a slice of pie?  A Wagner College history professor noted that
"a la mode" was used widely in the 1890's to describe anything extremely
fashionable.
   A few persons are aware of the origin of the term.
   Walter Gann, present owner of the Hotel Cambridge, said his sister was
listening to a phone-in-the-answer quiz program in New York when the dessert's
birthplace was asked.  She telephones within three minutes only to be told some
200 listeners had already called in the correct answer.
   Gann credits much of  Cambridge's national notoriety to Roy Shoet, who has
been the radio and television announcer at nearby Saratoga Raceway for many
years.  During the winter months, Shoet broadcast from California and
frequently mentioned the birthplace of "pie a la mode" on a network.
   In addition, Cambridge is a fashionable resort which had catered for many
years to well-traveled guests who spread its reputation throughout the globe.


(She gasped "pie a la mode"?  Actually, Berry Hall saw the ice cream on the
apple pie and gasped, "That's one small step for man..."--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 18:19:28 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:19:28 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas? (and
 Ancestry.com)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.141928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael,

I've spent the last four hours on Ancestry.com and searched the following
phrases(one year at a time):
church lady sings  1960-1978
fat lady sings 1940-1979
it ain't over 1960-79
opera's not over    1960-79
church ain't out    1950-79

It just ain't there.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Quinion" <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


> A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
> inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
> recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
> He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
> at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
> at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
> lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain't over until the
> Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
> finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
> Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
> --
> Michael Quinion
> Editor, World Wide Words
> E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
> Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Oct  5 18:40:44 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:40:44 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.144044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

John Baker


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 18:43:30 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:43:30 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAC0@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.144330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Baker, John wrote:
>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
>jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
>precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that
>a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one
>or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by
>another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the
>fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which
>presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback
>collection, is the origin of the phrase.

I'd say the reverse; the joke plays on a pre-existing catch-phrase.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 19:01:18 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:01:18 -0400
Subject: The 1903 OED cite for pie a la mode
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.150118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The  cite from OED is:

    1903 Everybody's Mag. VIII. 6/2 Tea and buns,..apple pie �  la mode and
chocolate were the most serious menus.

How do we know that the pie had ice cream on it?  Is there more to the cite
that talks about ice cream?

My reason for askng is that the first cite anywhere which actually mentions
ice cream on the pie is from the 1920's.

Not that I doubt it.  It makes sense.  But show me the ice cream.

SC


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Oct  5 19:13:47 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:13:47 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.151347.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, of course I can't say for sure which came first.  But the catchphrase must have come from somewhere, and its wording is certainly suggestive of a hillbilly joke (a genre that used to be far more popular than it is today, particularly in traditionally hillbilly areas like Kentucky (where I bought the booklet).  The original joke, by the way, was funnier than is my stark retelling of it; I wanted to make sure that I didn't introduce any anachronistic elements in trying to restore its humor.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Alice Faber [mailto:faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 2:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


Baker, John wrote:
>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
>jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
>precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that
>a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one
>or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by
>another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the
>fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which
>presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback
>collection, is the origin of the phrase.

I'd say the reverse; the joke plays on a pre-existing catch-phrase.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 17:06:46 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:06:46 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
In-Reply-To: <001b01c38aca$d8460440$42631941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.130646.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Since the HDAS cites "frog" as a British term for a policeman from
>1857/1859, and "Frog's March" from 1871 and later, why do we assume that the
>term implied being marched like a frog instead of being marched BY frogs?

I've read only a few descriptions of the "frog's march" ... but it seems to
me that the usually preferred approach (not called "frog's march") involved
a cooperative prisoner being escorted by police officers or equivalent,
each man walking on his own (with or without some form of restraint). The
frog's march was required only if the prisoner was combative or
unable/unwilling to walk ... then he would be carried face-down by his four
limbs ... if he continued to struggle, I suppose he could be bounced off
the ground a few times or dragged through the dirt a little bit, without
releasing his limbs ... an uncomfortable exercise, especially for the
prisoner -- but also quite strenuous for the four men carrying him, no
doubt. The policemen would be "marching" the prisoner either way, so I
guess it's more likely that "frog" refers to the spread-limbed face-down
posture.

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 23:51:58 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:51:58 -0400
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.195158.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once you find out which terms to punch into which boxes over at Ancestry,
you can fly.  It takes forever to tune up that suck-ass search engine,
though.

Using "pie mode" in place of "first name" and "second name," you come up
with a cite from 1895 from the Newark(OH) Advocate:

     There was a big sign in the window which read this way:

............................................................................
 .                 PIE A LA MODE,
                             10 Cents.
............................................................................

So Mr. Townsend and his consort, Ms. Berry Hall,  must have heard the term
from somewhere else, perhaps Ohio :)

I've not finished searching, but had to share the info found thus far.

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct  6 01:01:43 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:01:43 -0400
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating
 (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.210143.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I went back about another 10 years (1885) on Ancestry.  No other cites that
help.  But, after all, how early could you get a scoop of ice cream on your
piece of pie?

As an aside, many of the cites I found from 1895-1905 or so, used "peach
pie" rather than "apple pie."



I still want someone to find a cite that tells me that "pie a la mode" was a
piece of pie with a scoop of ice cream on top.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating (1895)


> Once you find out which terms to punch into which boxes over at Ancestry,
> you can fly.  It takes forever to tune up that suck-ass search engine,
> though.
>
> Using "pie mode" in place of "first name" and "second name," you come up
> with a cite from 1895 from the Newark(OH) Advocate:
>
>      There was a big sign in the window which read this way:
>
>
............................................................................
>  .                 PIE A LA MODE,
>                              10 Cents.
>
............................................................................
>
> So Mr. Townsend and his consort, Ms. Berry Hall,  must have heard the term
> from somewhere else, perhaps Ohio :)
>
> I've not finished searching, but had to share the info found thus far.
>
> SC
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Oct  6 02:14:49 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:14:49 -0500
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.211449.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not that I remember using the term, but when I was a cop (early 70s),
uncooperative prisoners were marched with hands behind them in handcuffs,
the controlling officer (one was usually adequate) restraining them by
holding the link between the handcuffs.  Cooperation was compelled by
lifting up and forward on the handcuffs.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>

I've read only a few descriptions of the "frog's march" ... but it seems to
me that the usually preferred approach (not called "frog's march") involved
a cooperative prisoner being escorted by police officers or equivalent,
each man walking on his own (with or without some form of restraint). The
frog's march was required only if the prisoner was combative or
unable/unwilling to walk ...


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct  6 03:30:55 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:30:55 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yegg."  (1900)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.233055.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that Barry is responsible for tracing this word back to 1903, the
current earliest dates used by both OED and M-W.  He did the work.

I just did the easier part, using his new-found tool, Ancestry.com, and
antedated it to 1900.

>From The June 28, 1900, Fort Wayne(IN) News, page  XXX?(Ancestry's images
are for SHIT), column 2:

     Their lingo is the language of the "yegg."  No other crook uses it, and
their phrases would be Greek to the average citizen.

I can give you two additional cites from 1900.  And more from 1901/02.  The
word was used both for a safecracker and a general criminal.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 06:43:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 02:43:10 EDT
Subject: Menudo (1904); OT: Food History News
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.024310.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MENUDO

   From PaperofRecord.com.


   25 September 1904, THE MEXICAN HERALD, pg. 9, col. 2:
_Peon Restaurant of City of Mexico:_
_"Square Meals" For From Two Cents Up_
(...)
(Col. 3--ed.)
   A loaf of bread, called "pambaz" or rather "pan bozo" made of common
flour, and about three inches long, is cut half lengthwise.  This loaf is hollow.
In the cavity is place (sic) a tablespoonful of this stew: a spoonful of chile
sauce poured over it; the other half loaf placed on top, and there you are
for three centavos.  No Anglo-Saxon, with eyes and an imagination--unless he is
nearly starved--can bolt that combination.
   There are other stands where only tortillas con carne are sold.
(...)
   Some of the better calsses of stands keep "tortas compuestas" which are a
kind of sandwich made of hogshead cheese, sausage, boiled ham, fried pork,
canned corned beef, chicken, etc.  These sell for from six to ten centavos each
according to the quality of the meat used in them.
(...)
(Col. 4--ed.)
   In eating houses they sell "panzita" or "menudo" mixed with boiled corn;
an ordinary sized plateful costs three centavos.
(...)
   Beef or mutton soup, about an ordinary sized teacup ful three centavos;
boiled rice mixed with fine cut chile, two centavos; guisado, a stew made of
meat and three or four kinds of vegetables, three centavos; boiled beans, two
centavos; chicken stewed in a dark mahogany-colored gravy, three centavos; boiled
beef and potatoes, three centavos; three tortillas one centavo or a small
loaf of bread, three centavos; a big glass of pulgue, two centavos.
   One can order the same dish as often as desired at the same price.
   In all fondas and even in good restaurants the famous "mole de guajolote"
is in the bill of fare every Sunday, and the sign "Rico Mole de Guajolote los
Domingos" is always visible either on the facade of the restaurant or on the
menu cards, if there are any.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  FOOD HISTORY NEWS

   This--from the "Editor's Notebook" at FOOD HISTORY NEWS--got a knowing
grin from me:

http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html
October 1, 2003In this issue:Who is a food history professional?

Food history professionals? As some of us have mulled over the Food History
Symposium in Mississippi (see September 23 entry below...) the question has
come up about who is a food history professional. In fact, I have asked if there
are any. While a great many of the attendees and presenters are professionals,
and do food history, there is hardly anyone of the them who does food history
full-time for a living.

People ask me all the time how to become a food historian, and I always ask
them why would they want to be one? At the very best, I can think of only a
half dozen or so individuals who do food history for more than half of their
time. Almost all of us who work at this have some other means of support: a
profession like freelance writing, teaching, or museum work. We might have a
business like selling antiquarian cookbooks or culinary antiques. Some of us have
pensions or private wealth. Some have supportive and employed spouses. I can
think of only four or five of us who actually try to make our living at food
history, and I am here to say, as one who tries to do so, it can scarcely be done.
The only reason I can come close is because of where and how I live which
is--very simply in rural Maine.

So I don't think there really are any professional food historians as much as
there are professionals doing food history, and I think it will be that way
for at least another ten to twenty years. I do think that eventually food
history will take its place with economic, military, architectural, etc. history,
and perhaps there will be some teaching positions in food history. There may
even be sufficient interest to give someone a job doing food history research
and writing for hire--that is, of course, the job I want. Right now, many food
history questions float in the realm of idle curiosity or in sound-bite service
to commerce. I don't much care were it is as long as people are getting more
and more interested all the time. But it isn't a living. If you are
fantasizing about being a professional food historian, keep your day job.


   Which is, of course, parking tickets.
   My cousin's husband--he of the two wonderful daughters--is also a lawyer.
He makes $600 an hour.  My co-worker commented:  "So?  That's only about $570
an hour more than we make."
   To earn as much as I've made from the "hot dog," he'd have to work...one
second.
   The Big Apple?  Six years ago, when "Big Apple Corner" passed into law, I
gave information to the New York Public Library and to the New York Historical
Society, and told them that I'd like to donate my money and my time to get
this on a city web site.  There was no response.
   After those two amazing "Big Apple" newspaper articles appeared about 40
days ago, I confronted the NYPL and N-YHS again last month.   The NYPL
librarian (who knew me, but obviously not my work) told me that my work, which had
been placed in the NYPL file, was missing from the NYPL file.  When I told him
that I'd passed a law, he said, well, do you have knowledge of every law?  I
didn't even receive an "I'm sorry." And I've never received a kind word from any
NYC institution, ever, to this day.
   Anyway, the FHN article sums it up the problem nicely.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 12:10:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:10:21 EDT
Subject: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.081021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's country home.  The
bear was caught and transported a considerable distance in hopes that it would
"den up" and not return to David Letterman's neighborhood.

Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

       - James A. Landau


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Oct  6 16:53:58 2003
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:53:58 -0500
Subject: CA Prop. 54
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.115358.0500.>

Does anyone know whether Proposition 54 would affect sociolinguistic
research at public colleges in California?
This measure, which is on tomorrow's ballot, restricts the ability of
state agencies to classify individuals by race, ethnicity, etc. There
are exceptions for medical research, but what about social science research?
Some general discussion of the issue is at:
http://lao.ca.gov/initiatives/2003/54_10_2003.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 21:10:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:10:38 EDT
Subject: Puke Politics (from California, not Missouri)
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.171038.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From California, of course.  No relation to Missouri ("the Puke State").
   It's made today's headlines.


(YAHOO NEWS)
L.A. Times Faces Anger for Schwarzenegger Coverage
Sun Oct 5, 1:02 PM ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The Los Angeles Times has had about 1,000 readers
cancel subscriptions and been "flooded" with angry letters, calls and e-mail
protesting its coverage of Arnold Schwarzenegger's alleged sexual harassment of
women, it reported on Sunday.

The newspaper has detailed allegations by a total of 15 women in three
front-page stories since Thursday against Schwarzenegger, touching off a controversy
that has consumed the final days of Tuesday's recall election in which the
actor and former Mr. Universe remains the front-runner.

Schwarzenegger, a Republican, has apologized in a general way for his
behavior toward women, while denying the most recent allegations carried by the
newspaper in stories on Saturday and Sunday.

He has also accused the Los Angeles Times of working with embattled incumbent
Gov. Gray Davis in a concerted campaign of "puke politics" aimed at derailing
his candidacy.
(...)



(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:rcman777%40excite.com+">RCMan</A> (<A HREF="mailto:rcman777%40excite.com">rcman777 at excite.com</A>)
Subject: #Fellow Dem Tells Grey-Out Davis: Stop the Dirty Campaigning!
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.society.liberalism">alt.society.liberalism</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=ba.politics">ba.politics</A>
Date: 2003-08-03 09:41:25 PST

Davis is told: No trash talk
By Gary Delsohn -- Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Friday, August 1, 2003
<A HREF="http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7141249p-8088520c.html">http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7141249p-8088520c.html</A>

Attorney General Bill Lockyer issued a stern warning to fellow Democrat Gov.
Gray Davis on Thursday: Run the kind of "trashy ...puke" campaign you did last
year and a lot of prominent Democrats willvote to recall you and give the job
to Republican Richard Riordan.Lockyer acknowledged in a 90-minute breakfast
interview with The Bee Capitol Bureau that Riordan has not yet declared his
candidacy.

But he said he expects the former Los Angeles mayor to run and thathe's been
"counseling" and "warning" Democratic campaign consultants that they'd better
steer clear of the type of personal attacks Davis has made in past campaigns.

"If they do the trashy campaign on Dick Riordan ... I think there are going
to be prominent Democrats that will defect and just say, 'We'retired of that
puke politics. Don't you dare do it again or we're just going to help pull the
plug.'

"There is a growing list of prominent Democrats that, if that's how
itevolves, are going to jump ship."

Asked if he'd be one of them, Lockyer, who has also come out againstthe
recall, calling it "unfair to Gray Davis and bad for the state,"said: "I don't
know."

Lockyer's comments infuriated Davis' longtime political consultant,"startled"
the Republican strategist who would likely manage Riordan's campaign and gave
rise to the notion that Democratic unity behind Davis may be crumbling.

About the same time Lockyer was making his comments, U.S. Rep.
LorettaSanchez, D-Garden Grove, who has been urging U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein to put her
name on the ballot, suggested she might enter therace.

"I would never rule anything out," Sanchez said in an interview with KCBS
television in Los Angeles. "It depends on how we are doing, andit depends on what
choices we have."

The attorney general and other statewide Democratic officeholders said weeks
ago they would not run in the recall election as potential successors to
Davis.

Lockyer talked in general terms about what he characterized as Davis' history
of running negative campaigns attacking his opponents'character and record.

But the attorney general zeroed in most specifically on Davis' role inthe
2002 Republican primary between Riordan and businessman BillSimon.

Simon was given little chance of winning when that contest began, so Davis
and Garry South, who ran Davis' last campaign for governor, put millions of
dollars into about a half-dozen television attack ads on Riordan, whom they
expected to be a tough adversary in the general election. The Davis ads accused
Riordan of changing his views onabortion and the death penalty. They also
portrayed him as someone voters couldn't trust.

Ahead of Simon 3-1 when the primary began, Riordan began a free-fallafter the
ads hit and never recovered.

Davis and Simon then engaged in an attack-mode fight of their own, with Davis
characterizing Simon as a naive millionaire determined to shield his business
record from the public and Simon hammering away at Davis as bought and owned
by special interests."

It was a puke campaign and I didn't like it," Lockyer said. "I think it's a
disservice to voters and the profession. I'm just tired of that stuff."
(...)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct  7 00:40:48 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:40:48 -0400
Subject: a la mode......Beef and ice cream
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.204048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, we've taken "pie a la mode" back to 1895.  I have no doubt that it goes
back farther.  But can anyone truly tell me what it was?

If  "beef a la mode" wasn't a piece of stewed cow with a scoop of tutti
fruti on top, then why was "pie a la mode" a piece of pie with a scoop of
ice cream on top?  How do we know that the pie didn't have cream poured over
it, and this was considered "in the manner?"  When did the ice cream become
the "mode?"  Any cites before 1920?


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Oct  7 02:44:15 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 19:44:15 -0700
Subject: Pelota in California Politics
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.194415.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An article by John Simerman in yesterday's _Contra Costa [California]
Times_, "Woman wanted a word with Arnold," opened with:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/content_syndication/local_news/6937917.htm

MODESTO -Who was that woman in red?

And what's her connection with Arnold?

No one knows, it seems. But the sudden appearance of a woman at a
rally, pleading to speak to Arnold Schwarzenegger about a "very, very
personal" issue, threw a new pelota into the media scrum that forms
around a celebrity candidate.

(end quote)

I had not known the term before, but found that it's a synonym for
the sport jai allai and a word for the ball used in it. I suppose a
pelota into a scrum is faster than the traditional wrench in the
works.

A check of the web via Google turned up about 584,000 total hits for
the term; English results narrowed it to 21,400. Switching to Google
News generated only 13 unduplicated hits, of which one was a personal
name, one a place name, and the others apparently directly or
indirectly (via a movie title) related to the sport. None had the
transferred sense of the CCT article.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 03:12:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:12:46 -0400
Subject: Pie a la mode (1906?)
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.231246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For what it's worth, this "a la mode" selection if from the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database.



 Searching Entire Database for a la mode. Your search found 7 occurrences


 1. Smith, Margaret Bayard. "Letter from Margaret Bayard Smith to J. Bayard Smith, Febuary 25, 1829"
[Page  281 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

will not mix in society and the private parties given are uninteresting to strangers, because there are no Secretaries or public characters there-- Genl. Jackson and his family, being in mourning,  decline all company, so that a Party must be grave and sober, to be a la mode. The crowds of strangers who are here, having no drawing-rooms, no parties, or levees to atend, surge about guessing for news and spreading every rumour as it rises and every day gives rise to new rumours about the Cabinet. Last week it was considered certainly fixed--

 2. Ames, Blanche Butler. "Letter from Blanche Butler Ames to Sarah Hildreth Butler, May 31, 1863"
[Page  93 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

that it was a mistake, and that he has not been on.  I must now tell you about my dress, for the Distribution is not far off. The skirt must be trimmed, but how I know not. You have seen the latest styles and know what is the most appropriate for a white dress. The waist I shall have made a la mode garibaldi, and trimmed considerably, so it is necessary that the skirt correspond. You did not say anything about a white muslin underskirt. Of course I must have one, so please do not forget to send it. If you do not get me a travelling dress I shall be obliged to wear the grey dress

 3. Powers, Elvira J.. "Diary of Elvira J. Powers, December, 1864"
[Page  144 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

who said he "enjoyed the Christmas dinner the most, for there wasn't so much style about it." Very excellent oyster soup for the light diet was given each time. Twenty-one hundred pies were issued for dinner, seventy-one cans of oysters, with eighteen hundred pounds of beef a la mode, also four barrels of pickles.  But this must have seemed so like a mockery to one mourning wife who is here. Sergeant Don A. Clark, a very worthy man and Christian, who, Chaplain Fitch says, "has suffered more than any other two men ever in this hospital," died just after midnight.

 4. Huling, Caroline A.. "Letter from Caroline A. Huling, 1906?"
[Page  129 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

I also noticed that books and letters handled by her were soiled and sticky. After gently calling her attention to the matter several times without avail, I was obliged to dismiss her. She had simply formed a habit that had become her master and she lacked either desire or will to conquer it. Pie "a la mode" is another foolishness that I frequently see. Pie or ice cream alone may be all right unless too rich for the individual digestion, but in combination I view it with horror and would expect one who indulges therein at lunch to be nervous and fretful during the afternoon.

 5. Hale, Betty May. "Diary of Betty May Hale, May, 1937"
[Page  147 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

a last glimpse before going to see the church where Josephine was buried. That little church was Reuil and we passed over the Seine and through the Bois de Boulogne and past the Arc de Triumphe and down the Champs Elysee to Rue Rivoli where our hotel was. Almost immediately we started for Boeuf "a la mode" but it was closed so we went to Griffon a very nice restaurant where they had lovely lobster soup and then we went to bed only after exercising well.    Sunday, May 23, 1937   Today we went to Fontainebleau and the sun was shining

 6. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1944"
[Page  282 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

pie. You come immediately to the Navy office, sign your papers, and then you will have to hunt Ann. She's hiding out somewhere." Bang went the receiver! Needless to say, Minnie obeyed her master's command, but she didn't find Ann.  Minnie fed us a delicious dinner at 6:30. The blackberry pie a la mode was super-- Harry's favorite. The trials and tribulations of the day were forgotten by the time we said good-night and Ray returned us to the hotel. Mr. and Mrs. Floyd Hewitt of Boise also were dinner guests at the Shinns'.

 7. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, August, 1948"
[Page  347 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

of the Seattle M-K office, transported us to the Olympic Hotel and the men went to the M-K office. Surprise-- it's not raining! Ray picked up the Wilburs, Paul and us at 5:30 and we went to the Shinns' for dinner. The food was delicious and the dessert was Minnie Shinn's own famous blackberry pie a la mode. Had a pleasant evening visiting and Minnie returned us to the hotel at 10:30 P. M.    August 3   Breakfast at 6:30. Minnie and Ray picked up the Wilburs and us at the hotel at 7 A. M. Paul, Ellis and Marvin went to the airport


Results Bibliography
 Smith, Margaret Bayard, 1778-1844,  Letter from Margaret Bayard Smith to J. Bayard Smith, Febuary 25, 1829,  in The First Forty Years of Washington Society in the Family Letters of Margaret Bayard Smith.  Hunt, Gaillard.  New York, NY:  Frederick Ungar Publishing,  1906, pp. 424.  [Bibliographic Details] [2-25-1829] S74-D070

 Ames, Blanche Butler, 1847-1939,  Letter from Blanche Butler Ames to Sarah Hildreth Butler, May 31, 1863,  in Chronicles from the Nineteenth Century:  Family Letters of Blanche Butler and Adelbert Ames Married July 21st, 1870,  vol. 1.  Ames, Blanche Butler, comp..  Clinton, MA:  Privately published,  1957, pp. 719.  [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [5-31-1863] S332-D113

 Powers, Elvira J.,  Diary of Elvira J. Powers, December, 1864,  in Hospital Pencillings: Being a Diary While in Jefferson General Hospital, Jeffersonville, Indiana and Others at Nashville, Tennessee, as Matron and Visitor.  Boston, MA:  E.L. Mitchell,  1866, pp. 218.  [Bibliographic Details] [12-2-1864] S975-D007

 Huling, Caroline A.,  Letter from Caroline A. Huling, 1906?,  in Letters of a Business Women to Her Niece.  New York, NY:  R.F. Fenno & Company,  1906, pp. 313.  [Bibliographic Details] [1906] S7478-D013

 Hale, Betty May,  Diary of Betty May Hale, May, 1937,  in My Trip to Europe, 1937.  San Francisco, CA:  W. Kibbee & Son,  1938, pp. 315.  [Bibliographic Details] [5-1-1937] S1165-D003

 Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957,  Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1944,  in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days.  Boise, ID:  Em-Kayan Press,  1951, pp. 446.  [Bibliographic Details] [7-18-1944] S1105-D099

 Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957,  Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, August, 1948,  in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days.  Boise, ID:  Em-Kayan Press,  1951, pp. 446.  [Bibliographic Details] [8-1-1948] S1105-D109




Produced in collaboration with the University of Chicago.
 Send mail to Editor at AlexanderSt.com  with questions or comments about this web site.
 Copyright © 2001 Alexander Street Press, LLC.  All rights reserved.
 PhiloLogic Software, Copyright © 2001 The University of Chicago.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct  7 03:17:09 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:17:09 -0400
Subject: a la mode......Beef and ice cream
In-Reply-To: <005801c38c6b$a812cea0$42631941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.231709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>So, we've taken "pie a la mode" back to 1895.  I have no doubt that it goes
>back farther.  But can anyone truly tell me what it was?
>
>If  "beef a la mode" wasn't a piece of stewed cow with a scoop of tutti
>fruti on top, then why was "pie a la mode" a piece of pie with a scoop of
>ice cream on top?  How do we know that the pie didn't have cream poured over
>it, and this was considered "in the manner?"  When did the ice cream become
>the "mode?"  Any cites before 1920?

I don't have any.

Mencken ("American Language", Supplement I, p. 399, note 2): "In an
Associated Press dispatch from Cambridge, N. Y., May 20, 1939 the invention
of _pie a` la mode_ was claimed for Charles Watson Townsend, who had died
there that day. The inspiration seized him, it was said, while dining at a
local hotel, _c._ 1887, and soon afterward he introduced the dessert to
Delmonico in New York."

Is the tale true? Timing might be right. At any rate Mencken fails to note
any protests from 1939 about this putative origin, and such protests would
likely have followed the AP story if "pie a-la-mode" had had a common
non-ice-cream-related meaning 20-50 years earlier (not a conclusive
argument, I fully concede).

The derived verb "[to] a-la-mode" = "[to] put ice cream on [pie]" was
mentioned in AS (1:292) in 1926.

Mark Twain mentions strawberry pie served with ice cream in "Innocents
Abroad" (1868) IIRC ... he didn't call it "a-la-mode" ... it was part of a
fanciful French table-d'h^ote ... conceivably an imaginary or actual French
origin of the combination was the inspiration for the name (my wild
speculation only).

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct  7 05:40:31 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:40:31 -0400
Subject: Mulletude redux
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.014031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Pittsburgh paper:

http://www.postgazette.com/lifestyle/20031007mullet1007fnp3.asp

No mention of the term "Western Pennsylvania mudflap" here.

Mention of the OED ... although the edition referred to is not available at
the Pittsburgh public library at my last inquiry ....

-- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh


From n0aaa at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG  Mon Oct  6 12:52:59 2003
From: n0aaa at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:52:59 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blends
In-Reply-To: your message of         Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:10:21 EDT.
 <200310061220.h96CKh901961@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.075259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hole up comes to mind before "build up"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 08:05:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 04:05:33 EDT
Subject: Break a Leg (1954, 1957)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.040533.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The HDAS, under "leg," has this from 1964.  See our prior discussion.
   The Yankees will play the Boston Red Sox.  I think it's time to end my
"Yankee curse" and wish the team "good luck."


   18 June 1954, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 6:
_Director Is_
_Hurt During_
_Rehearsal_
   If old theater sayings are any indication of success, there's a great many
"breaks" in store for the Mountain Theater, rehearsing nightly for the
opening attraction of the sixteenth season, "Stalag 17."  The Braddock Heights
theater group experienced, its first, and they sincerely hope its last, "break"
last night.
   Among the many sayings for "good luck," you can hear actors whisper "neck
and leg break" to each other as the footlights dim and the curtain rises each
opening  nights.  Although "neck and leg break" sounds more like a call for a
wrestling arena, theatrically it means, "good luck."
   Stuart Vaughan, making his bow as the director for the Mountain Theater's
resident professional stock company this year, could have used some "good
luck" last night during the rehearsal for "Stalag 17" which opens June 23.  Mr.
Vaughan literally went out on a limb to prove the "good luck" saying.
   During one of the director's demonstrations of a funny piece of stage
business which occurs in the first act of the lusty comedy about GI's in a prison
camp, Mr. Vaughan, according to the script, was to jump up on a folding chair
and shout "at ease."  Mr. Vaughn jumped with great ease but before he could
shout his lines, the chair folded and he fell to the floor with a crash that
would make any sound-effects man green with envy.
   The director today wore a cast on his right leg and requested that no cast
member ask to autograph it.  For the remainder of the rehearsal period, he
will do no more demonstrations of funny business for his cast of twenty men.
   The actors of the "Stalag 17" company, meanwhile, are looking up new and
different opening night good luck sayings.  Somehow, no one seems to feel that
Mr. Vaughan would appreciated hearing "neck and leg break."


   29 May 1957, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 4, col. 8:
_Dancer Breaks Leg_
_In Fall Off Stage_
   PHILADELPHIA (AP)--In the theater, they say "break a leg" to an actor just
before he goes on stage, but it really means "good luck."
   Dancer Jean Williams was appearing in a musical at a tent theater near
Philadelphia recently and no one remembered the ritual as she went on.
   During a second act blackout, Jean tumbled into the orchestra pit.  She
broke her leg.


From cjc3esq at COMCAST.NET  Tue Oct  7 09:15:38 2003
From: cjc3esq at COMCAST.NET (Charlie)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 05:15:38 -0400
Subject: Pelota in California Politics
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.051538.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: "threw a new pelota into the media scrum "

Pelota in Spanish is just a generic term for ball, not a specific jai lai
term.  Scrum is a rugby term.  Was the author saying that there is now an
Hispanic twist to this political issue because the latest complaint comes
from an Hispanic woman?

Charles J. Cunningham

mailto:cjc3esq at comcast.net

Save the whales,
            collect the whole set.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John McChesney-Young" <panis at PACBELL.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:44 PM
Subject: Pelota in California Politics


> An article by John Simerman in yesterday's _Contra Costa [California]
> Times_, "Woman wanted a word with Arnold," opened with:
>
>
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/content_syndication/local_news/6937917.htm
>
> MODESTO -Who was that woman in red?
>
> And what's her connection with Arnold?
>
> No one knows, it seems. But the sudden appearance of a woman at a
> rally, pleading to speak to Arnold Schwarzenegger about a "very, very
> personal" issue, threw a new pelota into the media scrum that forms
> around a celebrity candidate.
>
> (end quote)
>
> I had not known the term before, but found that it's a synonym for
> the sport jai allai and a word for the ball used in it. I suppose a
> pelota into a scrum is faster than the traditional wrench in the
> works.
>
> A check of the web via Google turned up about 584,000 total hits for
> the term; English results narrowed it to 21,400. Switching to Google
> News generated only 13 unduplicated hits, of which one was a personal
> name, one a place name, and the others apparently directly or
> indirectly (via a movie title) related to the sport. None had the
> transferred sense of the CCT article.
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Oct  7 13:34:54 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:34:54 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <200310051840.h95Iepu14665@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.093454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Baker, John wrote:

>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
> jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
> precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a
> group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more
> of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their
> group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It
> seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before
> and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

Do you remember anything about the title of this joke collection?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Oct  7 13:47:31 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:47:31 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.094731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Sorry, no; it's been at least 20 years since I've seen it.  It was in booklet form, probably about 6" x 9", with cardboard covers, probably 24 to 48 pages.  All of the jokes had a hillbilly theme.  I can remember one or two of the others, but I guess that isn't terribly germane.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:35 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Baker, John wrote:

>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
> jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
> precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a
> group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more
> of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their
> group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It
> seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before
> and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

Do you remember anything about the title of this joke collection?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alcockg at SRICRM.COM  Tue Oct  7 16:28:00 2003
From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:28:00 -0700
Subject: SET NODIG NOMIME
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.092800.0700.>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031007/a518bb9e/attachment.html>

From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct  7 17:08:24 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:08:24 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.130824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Towse" writes, citing target="l">http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html
""It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration.""

This seems to be another erroneous food legend.  New Yorkers were eating ice cream before the Madison administration.  See the following bit of good advice:
Cold water and Ice Cream are both extremely pernicious [in hot weather; the proper first aid for those who indulge].  New-York Evening Post, July 19, 1803, p. 3, col. 2

There is an illustration of a street vendor selling ice-cream in Harper's Weekly, August 15, 1868, p. 520.  The accompanying text on p. 521 does not contain the words "hokey pokey" or "ice cream", and the vendor is not identified or represented as Italian -- I don't notice any oddities of costume of facial appearance that characterized the stereotypical Italian.  The illustration is reproduced in John Grafton, New York in the Nineteenth Century, 2nd ed., N. Y., Dover, 1980, p. 84.

The earliest appearance of "hokey pokey" in Harper's Weekly, according to HarpWeek, is 1891.  I note that HarpWeek has the bizarre whimwham of replacing certain letters with Chinese characters -- a very useful feature.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Oct  7 17:22:31 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:22:31 -0400
Subject: Fw: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.132231.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

>>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

"Up" seems to me to more of an intensifier, as in "revv up" and "wash up".  If you must find syntactic blending, my candidate would be "hole up", which is a synonym for "den up" but has a different meaning from simple "hole".

Is syntactic blending something speakers actually do [how would you test it?] or just a name for a wide-spread pattern? 


Seán Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: James A. Landau 
Sent: Monday, 06 October, 2003 08:10
Subject: Re: Syntactic blends


A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's country home.  The
bear was caught and transported a considerable distance in hopes that it would
"den up" and not return to David Letterman's neighborhood.

Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 17:38:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:38:16 -0400
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.133816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.villagevoice.com/bestof/2003/contents.php?subject=characters
best guy with a huge cock  JONAH FALCON

best horse whisperer  JOEL AT KENSINGTON STABLES

best hot lesbian party promoters  RACHAEL AND CHLOÉ

best justified misanthrope  ROBERT SHAPIRO

best lexicographer  GEORGE THOMPSON
(...)


   George Thompson has been voted by the VILLAGE VOICE as the Best Lexicographer in New York!  Congratulations George!
   (Uh, that's quite a list...)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct  7 17:42:43 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:42:43 -0700
Subject: Louis Menand, the Chicago Manual, and the PAP
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.104243.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from Louis Menand, "The end matter: The nightmare of citation" [review
of the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style], The New Yorker,
7/6/03, pp. 120-126.

p. 124:  One major addition... is a ninety-page section on Grammar and
Usage.  For some reason... the authors felt it necessary to cover the
field from scratch...  On the other hand, common sources of solecism
receive less attention than they might.  The College Board would still
not have avoided the mistake it made on a recent P.S.A.T. exam, where
it replaced the phrase "Toni Morrison's genius" with "her," if it had
consulted the Chicago discussion of pronouns and antecedents.
------
oh, spit.  *louis menand* getting it wrong!  and in a remarkably
obscure way; if you hadn't already seen the sentence he was talking
about (which begins "Toni Morrison's genius enables her to..."), i
doubt that you'd understand what he says here.  to start with, he seems
to be assuming that pronouns are replacements for repetitions of a full
NP (so that "As for Toni Morrison, not everyone likes her work" would
be derived from "As for Toni Morrison, not everyone likes Toni
Morrison's work").  and then he assumes the truth of the PAP, so that
"Toni Morrison" is unavailable as an antecedent for "her", which means
that the only available antecedent for "her" is "Toni Morrison's
genius".  therefore, according to menand, what the exam writers did was
replace "Toni Morrison's genius" with "her".  of course, what the exam
writers actually did was treat "Toni Morrison" as the antecedent of
"her".

on the other hand, i'm pleased to see that the Chicago Manual doesn't
subscribe to the PAP.

elizabeth zwicky pointed me to this passage as soon as i got home from
talking at cornell (about the PAP and also about the "gay voice")  and
saw this issue of The New Yorker on top of my pile of mail.  first
things first!

while in ithaca, i took in the enormous Friends of the Library book
sale (on its first day, but i didn't stand in line overnight to get in
early for the good stuff) and found several grammar and usage manuals
that i didn't have already that were innocent of the PAP.  also a copy
of allan metcalf's Predicting New Yords (2002), apparently untouched
and in perfect shape, for $4.50.  (my apologies, allan; i understand
that this time around you don't get any royalties on this copy.)
entertaining reading for the trip from syracuse to detroit to san
francisco.

we've already had the discussion of "zhoozh", which appears in allan's
book with the spelling "szhoosh" and a 1999 invention date (long after
its use in Polari).  otherwise, i'd object only to the glossing of
"guppies"  as "geriatric urban poor persons".  i'm sure allan has
citations for this use, but where i live, guppies are gay urban
professionals (parallel to buppies).   ask the man who is one.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), dismayed at the shocking lowering of
standards at
    The New Yorker


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 20:28:36 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:28:36 EDT
Subject: California recall election
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.162836.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items of purely philological rather than political interest:
(both from AOL News)

"GOT CHAD?
 Check Your Ballot Card"

(photo credited to Reuters, no explanation, apparently the top page of a
ballot or ballot package in some jurisdiction using punch card voting)

and

[Schwartzenegger] said he had to put on his glasses to read the ballot, which
was several pages long, but the actor said he had no trouble finding his
name."I just went through the pages," he said. "Instead of going through two pages
I just went through 10 pages and you always look for the longest name."


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct  7 20:43:27 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:43:27 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.164327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.  One of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that puzzled me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been sold for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.

However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th, meaning "the featured attraction".

The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical Newspapers databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of the expression.

1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their Cost to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an illustration]
        National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.

1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty, four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib tongue in her head. . . .
        Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.

1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a bigger "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the Boston team.
         National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7

1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go Into Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in Second Game of Series.  [headline]
        Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.

1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
        Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.   ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)

1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over the country as the “Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,” died on Tuesday at her home, 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E. Rice's company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his circus.  She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.

1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat that he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6

1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so the public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.

This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference, from the 1930s.

For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade To-day.  [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest woman in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this morning. . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
        Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.

Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with classic features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147 pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it adds ten-fold to her beauty.
        National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on p. 12.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct  7 22:40:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:40:30 -0700
Subject: from louis menand's pen
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.154030.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

as for louis menand and the PAP, i have done the obvious thing and
pulled out my copy of his book The Metaphysical Club and started
looking for violations of the PAP.  menand seems to be much given to
this useful construction, despite labeling it a "solecism" in his New
Yorker review.  here are the first six examples i found; they take us
through page 38 of this book of 445 pages of text (many of which have
extended quotations from the people he's writing about; i didn't look
at these).

all these examples have subject or object pronouns (set off by
understrokes).  examples with possessive pronouns are *everywhere*, but
many handbooks exempt them from the PAP, so i ignored them.

1,  an example of a type i hadn't considered before, with a reflexive
pronoun rather than a plain definite pronoun.  but i can't see why the
PAP shouldn't cover these in the same way as the others.

   p. 7: ...in a phrase that became the city's name for _itself_...

2.  p. 7: Dr. Holmes's views on political issues therefore tended to be
reflexive: _he_ took his cues from his own instincts...

3.  p. 25: Emerson's reaction, when Holmes showed _him_ the essay, is
choice...

4.  p. 28: Brown's apotheosis marked the final stage in the
radicalization of Northern opinion.  _He_  became, for many
Americans,...

5.  p. 31: Wendell Holmes's riot control skills were not tested.  Still
_he_ had, at the highest point of prewar contention...

6.  p. 38: Holmes's account of his first wound was written, probably
two years after the battle in which it occurred, in a diary _he_ kept
during the war.

there's really no point in pursuing this further.  there are probably
close to a hundred examples in the book.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct  7 23:51:08 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:51:08 -0400
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.195108.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good thing the typesetter didn't get the names mixed up.  Or maybe not?

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"


> http://www.villagevoice.com/bestof/2003/contents.php?subject=characters
> best guy with a huge cock  JONAH FALCON
>
> best horse whisperer  JOEL AT KENSINGTON STABLES
>
> best hot lesbian party promoters  RACHAEL AND CHLOÉ
>
> best justified misanthrope  ROBERT SHAPIRO
>
> best lexicographer  GEORGE THOMPSON
> (...)
>
>
>    George Thompson has been voted by the VILLAGE VOICE as the Best
Lexicographer in New York!  Congratulations George!
>    (Uh, that's quite a list...)
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:11:23 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:11:23 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.211123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta Constitution,  Dec.
30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying to be
actors.

     The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in this line
is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-dollar Beauty
of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the drawing
feature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."


This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before your 1890
cite.

PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the acting
that did him in?




----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"


> A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for
the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.  One
of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that puzzled
me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have
gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the
19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been sold
for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
>
> However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase
through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th, meaning
"the featured attraction".
>
> The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical Newspapers
databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of the
expression.
>
> 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got
Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their Cost
to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
illustration]
>         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
>
> 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty,
four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a
ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib
tongue in her head. . . .
>         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
>
> 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star
Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a bigger
"card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the
Boston team.
>          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
>
> 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go Into
Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in
Second Game of Series.  [headline]
>         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
>
> 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am
known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
>         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
>
> 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of
Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over the
country as the “Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,” died on Tuesday at her home,
104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E. Rice's
company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
"Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the
feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his circus.
She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the
parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York
Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
>
> 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the
Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat that
he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the
map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
>
> 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so the
public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar
beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
> New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
>
> This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference, from
the 1930s.
>
> For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two
items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade To-day.
[headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so
fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest woman
in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this morning.
. . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
>         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
>
> Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with classic
features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium
height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147
pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it
adds ten-fold to her beauty.
>         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who
want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on p.
12.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:26:59 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:26:59 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.212659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

The Atlanta Constitution date was 1888, not 1889.  Sorry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"


> George,
>
> Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta Constitution,
Dec.
> 30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying to be
> actors.
>
>      The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in this
line
> is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-dollar
Beauty
> of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the drawing
> feature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."
>
>
> This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before your 1890
> cite.
>
> PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the acting
> that did him in?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
> Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
>
>
> > A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for
> the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.
One
> of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
> thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that
puzzled
> me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have
> gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the
> 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been
sold
> for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
> >
> > However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase
> through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th,
meaning
> "the featured attraction".
> >
> > The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical
Newspapers
> databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of
the
> expression.
> >
> > 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got
> Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their
Cost
> to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
> illustration]
> >         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
> >
> > 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty,
> four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a
> ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib
> tongue in her head. . . .
> >         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star
> Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a
bigger
> "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the
> Boston team.
> >          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
> >
> > 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go
Into
> Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in
> Second Game of Series.  [headline]
> >         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am
> known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
> >         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
> ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
> >
> > 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
of
> Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over
the
> country as the “Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,” died on Tuesday at her home,
> 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E.
Rice's
> company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
> "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the
> feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his
circus.
> She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the
> parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York
> Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
> >
> > 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the
> Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat
that
> he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the
> map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
> >
> > 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so
the
> public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar
> beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
> > New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
> >
> > This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
> databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference,
from
> the 1930s.
> >
> > For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two
> items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> > THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade
To-day.
> [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so
> fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest
woman
> in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this
morning.
> . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
> >         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
> >
> > Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with
classic
> features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium
> height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147
> pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
> narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it
> adds ten-fold to her beauty.
> >         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who
> want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on
p.
> 12.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998.
> >
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:47:41 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:47:41 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.214741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

Using ancestry.com, here's another earlier cite.

>From the Burlington(IA) Hawk Eye, February 15, 1883(the date isn't on the
masthead, but info in the text of the page would confirm the date as
accurate.  p. 3, col.3-4:

(The story concerns a lady who was injured in a minor train accident and
sued.  It was originally printed in the Louisville(KY) Courier-Journal).

         Now she is in the court room again.  She has a fine figure and is
altogether lovely to look at, but as fierce as a leopardess when aroused.
She made her first appearance in Louisville at the Knickerbocker theater as
a variety actress.  She was extensively advertised as the "Ten
Thousand-dollar Beauty."

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 02:25:17 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:25:17 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"-the final chapter?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.222517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

This is the earliest cite I can find on ancestry, searching from 1870-

(It concerns the lady to whom I referred in a previous message.  I quote
this latest one in its entirety, as it may help a researcher.

>From The Atlanta  Constitution, October 15, 1881, page 7, c. 2..


        Miss Louise Montague, the prettiest woman in the world, passed
through Atlanta yesterday in route to her home in Louisville.  Miss Montague
has for some time past been travelling with Forepaugh's circus, and has been
known as "Forepaugh's ten thousand dollar beauty."  She is said to be the
prettiest woman in the world, and was the feature of the street parades,
where she assumed the character of Lalla Rookh.  Miss Montague made a brief
sojourn in Atlanta yesterday, and dined at the Kimball.  Her "autograph" was
transferred to the register by Ned Callaway who asserts that the dreamy
eyes, pearly teeth and rosy cheeks captivated him in an instant.  Ned has
been singing "dreamy eyes that haunt me still" all evening.

I"ve got a fiver that SHE  is THE origin of the phrase.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 03:22:04 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:22:04 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"-the final chapter-part 2
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.232204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I apologize to ADS-L members for so many posts.  I'll try to avoid this
behavior in the future.

George,

I found an earlier cite, from August 29, 1881.  It comes from the
Atchison(KS) Globe, p. ?, column 3:


          Forepaugh's ten thousand dollar beauty is on speaking terms with
the candy butcher, the lemonade assassin, and the peanut scoundrel, and the
three fight regularly every day about it.  It is perhaps unnesessary to add
that the beauty is a great fraud, and that hundreds of prettier girls visit
the show every day.

(Wowzer!  Everyone's a critic).


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 13:27:31 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:27:31 EDT
Subject: Wall Street Journal of Monday, October 6: Enron and Bright
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.092731.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items from Monday's Journal:

A-hed front page article on Enron company e-mail, 1.6 million pieces of it,
available in a searchable database. Could be a gold mine for early uses of
contemporary neologisms, or just for informal usage. Address is

www.ferc.gov/industries/electric/indus-act/wem/03-26-03-release.asp

Inside, on the editorial page, Dinesh D'Souza has a column on atheists
calling themselves "brights." Reference to "a recent article in the New York
Times"by "philosopher Daniel Dennett."

- Allan Metcalf


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct  8 13:40:58 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:40:58 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.084058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:10 AM -0400 10/6/03, James A. Landau wrote:
>A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
>keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's
>country home.  The bear was caught and transported a considerable
>distance in hopes that it would "den up" and not return to David
>Letterman's neighborhood.
>
>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?


I do not see this as a syntactic blend. The two original components
of a syntactic blend should be synonymous or nearly so, e.g. "The
kids are driving me up the crazy" (I heard this once) from "The kids
are driving me crazy" and "The kids are driving me up the wall." An
example from the standard language: "time and again" from "time after
time" and "again and again."

Gerald Cohen
formerly avid collector of syntactic blends


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Oct  8 15:23:35 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:23:35 +0100
Subject: Wall Street Journal of Monday, October 6: Enron and Bright
In-Reply-To: <63.23381ef3.2cb56ac3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.162335.0100.>

> Inside, on the editorial page, Dinesh D'Souza has a column on atheists
> calling themselves "brights." Reference to "a recent article in the
> New York Times"by "philosopher Daniel Dennett."

They're a bit slow picking this up - that article was back in July.
See http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-bri1.htm, and also
http://www.the-brights.net, which has some links to other articles on
the subject. Somehow, I feel "bright" doesn't have legs ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 15:49:02 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:49:02 EDT
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.114902.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More Schwarzenegger philologia (and yes, I misspelled "Schwarzenegger" in my
last post).

<quote>
World Marvels at Schwarzenegger's Victory
By VANESSA GERA, AP

GRAZ, Austria (Oct. 8)

<snip>

The breakfast celebration took place in downtown Graz - a historic city in
southern Austria located just a few miles away from Schwarzenegger's boyhood
home, Thal.

The night before, hundreds of partygoers packed into the bar to cheer on
Schwarzenegger.

Chanting "Go, Arnie, Go!" from time to time, the celebrants at the party
sipped "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails in the bar, which was
decorated with "Join Arnold" campaign flyers and red, white and blue balloons.
<end quote>

And did anyone notice that the top four finishers in the governor's race
(it's no longer PC to say "gubernatorial") finished in order of the length of
their names?

Arnold Schwarzenegger   20 letters
Cruz Bustamante            14 letters
Tom McClintock              13 letters
Peter Samejo                  11 letters

(It is necessary to go to first names to break the tie for second place)

                    - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  8 16:14:42 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:14:42 -0400
Subject: More on "Boola Boola" and Barry Popik
In-Reply-To: <200310072240.h97MeZL15931@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.121442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few months ago I criticized Barry Popik for his July 13 posting, which
described a 1900 newspaper mention of "Boola Boola" without Barry's
acknowledging the contributions of two African-Americans who wrote the
song that was ripped off by "Boola Boola."  I wasn't really criticizing
Barry for this, rather I was chastising his denunciations of everyone who
doesn't have the complete corpora of ADS-L and that big-circulation
journal, Comments on Etymology, memorized.

I now want to do justice to Barry by pointing out that I have been
studying the question of the origin of the Yale "Boola Boola" song and I
have realized that his 1900 newspaper article is of tremendous
significance in casting doubt on the standard account of Allan M. Hirsh's
having written the song.  To put it plainly, the mention Barry has
discovered appears to flatly contradict Hirsh's own story of the song's
composition.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 14:35:13 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:35:13 -0400
Subject: from louis menand's pen
In-Reply-To: <417AC56C-F917-11D7-9330-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.103513.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold, please send your findings to Menand!  I suspect he and others,
despite their p.c. prating about this "rule," have never really thought it
through.  In fact, his way too long article on the Chicago Manual of Style
was just the typical New Yorkerish pedantry--the Manual is 900+ pages and
still not complete enough to satisfy writers' needs?!  Give me a break!

At 03:40 PM 10/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>as for louis menand and the PAP, i have done the obvious thing and
>pulled out my copy of his book The Metaphysical Club and started
>looking for violations of the PAP.  menand seems to be much given to
>this useful construction, despite labeling it a "solecism" in his New
>Yorker review.  here are the first six examples i found; they take us
>through page 38 of this book of 445 pages of text (many of which have
>extended quotations from the people he's writing about; i didn't look
>at these).
>
>all these examples have subject or object pronouns (set off by
>understrokes).  examples with possessive pronouns are *everywhere*, but
>many handbooks exempt them from the PAP, so i ignored them.
>
>1,  an example of a type i hadn't considered before, with a reflexive
>pronoun rather than a plain definite pronoun.  but i can't see why the
>PAP shouldn't cover these in the same way as the others.
>
>   p. 7: ...in a phrase that became the city's name for _itself_...
>
>2.  p. 7: Dr. Holmes's views on political issues therefore tended to be
>reflexive: _he_ took his cues from his own instincts...
>
>3.  p. 25: Emerson's reaction, when Holmes showed _him_ the essay, is
>choice...
>
>4.  p. 28: Brown's apotheosis marked the final stage in the
>radicalization of Northern opinion.  _He_  became, for many
>Americans,...
>
>5.  p. 31: Wendell Holmes's riot control skills were not tested.  Still
>_he_ had, at the highest point of prewar contention...
>
>6.  p. 38: Holmes's account of his first wound was written, probably
>two years after the battle in which it occurred, in a diary _he_ kept
>during the war.
>
>there's really no point in pursuing this further.  there are probably
>close to a hundred examples in the book.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  8 17:00:32 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:00:32 -0700
Subject: from louis menand's pen
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.100032.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

at the encouragement of andrea lunsford, i have sent louis menand
my two ADS postings about him, and also the abstract for the talk
i gave last thursday at cornell.

i hope he doesn't take this as a signal that he should be more
vigilant in avoiding possessive antecedents!

arnold, replying to beverly flanigan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 17:21:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:21:04 EDT
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.132104.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from lunch hour.  I didn't win a MacArthur grant this year, so
there's no Online Dictionary of Food & Drink, and it's back to work at the
McDonald's for lawyers.
   I got a copy of the VILLAGE VOICE and here's the whole thing:


VILLAGE VOICE, October 8-14, 2003, pg. 30, col. 3:

PAGE BREAKER:  george thompson is not your average lexicographer of slang.

_best lexicographer_
Though a member of the American Dialect Society and an avid reader of
19th-century newspapers, _GEORGE THOMPSON_ is not your average lexicographer of
slang--he has a sense of humor about it.  Librarian by day, Mr. Thompson calls
himself a "word collector," a phrase he dubs shorthand for "harmless crackpot."
However, he has made some important contributions to the field: the earliest
usage of _baseball_ (1823) and _jazz_ (1912)--which was oddly first used in the
context of baseball.  Elmer Holmes Bobst Library, 70 Washington Square South,
212-998-2517.


   Some quibbles.
   George Thompson found 1823 "base ball," not "baseball."  It is not a
contribution to our study of "slang."  Also, it is not the "earliest usage" of
"base ball."
   Second, the piece seems to assume that all lexicographers are "slang"
lexicographers, and that everybody in the American Dialect Society studies slang.
Not true.
   What's the meaning of "not your average lexicographer of slang"?
Considering that slang lexicographers number about 20 people at most--what's average?
Average concerning what?  And is George Thompson about the average or below
the average?  Why so?
   He's not average because  HE HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR ABOUT IT.  That's it?
He's the only one who tells jokes?
   Oooh, the next time I see that guy, he's getting my Arnold impression.
I've been doing it all day.  Hear me now and believe me later, I'm going to
terminate the VILLAGE VOICE impression that ADS members are not funny!  Ja!


From timryte at YAHOO.CA  Wed Oct  8 19:40:28 2003
From: timryte at YAHOO.CA (Timothy Wright)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:40:28 -0400
Subject: Suspension request
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I seem to have misplaced the instructions you sent me when I registered as a subscriber some time back.

I'd like to be off the list for a couple of months. Could you please effect this for me at the earliest and send me instructions on how to return to your mailing list when I am back?

Many thanks.

TIM WRIGHT



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 19:48:21 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:48:21 -0400
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154821.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My fame as "best lexicographer in New York" came from the fact that I happened to talk to a young woman at the reference desk here one evening when business was slow and we had a chance to chat.  She had asked about the OED, as I recall, and I showed her it on line.  She asked about lexicography as a career & MA programs, and I promised to ask Jesse and gave her my email.  By the time I had an answer from Jesse for her, she had decided she didn't really have the vocation, but said that she was a contributor to the VV's Best of NY special and wanted to use me as a subject.  I humbly tried to defer to Barry, but the kid was writing the paragraph for beer money and disinclined to go chase down someone she hadn't met, and so here I am.  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the first Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught robbing a bank.  Not that he thought robbing banks was a disgrace, the fault would lie in being caught.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 19:44:10 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:44:10 EDT
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154410.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another correction.  While Schwarzenegger had the longest last name of any
candidate (second longest was someone named Schwartzman, who finished ninth,
just behind Gary Coleman), had he really picked the person with the longest name
on the ballot, that would have been David Laughing Horse Robinson, who is
"Kawaiisu Tribe Chairman, Tejon Indian Reservation, 1997-present" and who finished
14th, two places behind Bill Simon (who dropped out of the race).

Mr. Robinson's Web site is <A HREF="http://mygov.governmentguide.com/mygov/webreturn/?id=141311&first=David&mi=Laughing+Horse&last=Robinson&url=http://www.horseforgovernor.com">www.horseforgovernor.com</A>.

Does anyone know what "Schwarzenegger" translates to?

       - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct  8 19:56:57 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:56:57 -0400
Subject: Suspension request
In-Reply-To: <20031008194028.4980.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.155657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 03:40:28PM -0400, Timothy Wright wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  I seem to have misplaced the instructions you sent me when
> I registered as a subscriber some time back.  I'd like to be
> off the list for a couple of months. Could you please effect
> this for me at the earliest and send me instructions on how
> to return to your mailing list when I am back?

As is documented on the ADS Web site, specifically at
http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html ,
two ways of accomplishing this would be to simply
unsubscribe now and resubscribe when you're ready to
return, or to set your list options to "nomail",
which will leave you on the list but won't send
anything to you.

I have effected the latter option on your behalf.

Jesse Sheidlower
co-listowner, ADS-L


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  8 19:57:42 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:57:42 -0400
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
In-Reply-To: <206b794206fca0.206fca0206b794@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.155742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson said:
>My fame as "best lexicographer in New York" came from the fact that
>I happened to talk to a young woman at the reference desk here one
>evening when business was slow and we had a chance to chat.  She had
>asked about the OED, as I recall, and I showed her it on line.  She
>asked about lexicography as a career & MA programs, and I promised
>to ask Jesse and gave her my email.  By the time I had an answer
>from Jesse for her, she had decided she didn't really have the
>vocation, but said that she was a contributor to the VV's Best of NY
>special and wanted to use me as a subject.  I humbly tried to defer
>to Barry, but the kid was writing the paragraph for beer money and
>disinclined to go chase down someone she hadn't met, and so here I
>am.  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the
>first Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught
>robbing a bank.  Not that he thought robbing banks was a disgrace,
>the fault would lie in being caught.
>

So, are you trying to say that you got caught being a lexicographer?
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Wed Oct  8 20:15:17 2003
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:15:17 -0400
Subject: Anold's name
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.161517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe Arnold's name is a compound, Schwartz = black, dark and -egg =
German Eck, corner, edge and er=agentive suffix ... so I guess somewhere in
Thal bei Graz there's a farmer whose land is a Schwarzenegg.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 21:21:34 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:21:34 EDT
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.172134.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/8/2003 3:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:


> .  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the first
> Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught robbing a bank.  Not that
> he thought robbing banks was a disgrace, the fault would lie in being
> caught.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson

   Oh, the VILLAGE VOICE was right after all.  George is funny.
   Not that Jesse or Erin can't tell a funny or two.

Barry Popik


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct  8 22:26:43 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:26:43 -0700
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.152643.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had always thought that the 'fat lady' was brunhilde from the Wagnerian Opera. She sings right before everything goes up in smoke.

Fritz Juengling


At 1:51 PM +0100 10/4/03, Michael Quinion wrote:
>A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
>inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
>recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
>He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
>at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
>at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
>lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ainÆt over until the
>Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
>finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
>Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
>--

Mike,

This was a question I posed to the list a few years ago, and below
are the responses I got.  Southern stories seem to be very much in
evidence, but no opera singers at Texas legislative sessions...

Larry
==============

Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:04:07 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      a seasonal query

(for any season including both an impeachment trial and a Super Bowl...)

Can anyone help pin down the origin of the expression frequently cited in
sports contexts, and occasionally elsewhere, that "It ain't over till the
fat lady sings", used as a warning not to count one's victory chickens
until they've hatched?  Since I've also heard this in what I assume is the
full form, "The opera ain't (or isn't) over till the fat lady sings", I
assume a possibly apocryphal story along the lines of some sports buff
attending an opera (probably a football or basketball coach dragged there
by a spouse) who imagines that the evening must be drawing blessedly to a
close, only to realize the force of the above generalization. Fans can now
be seen on occasion holding up posters depicting a Wagnerian soprano in
full coloratura mode once the crucial field goal has been thrown in the
basket or kicked through the uprights by the home team.  And while I doubt
such posters will be held up at the Met any time soon, I wouldn't be
surprised to hear the same sentiment dripping from the lips of a Republican
senator or House "manager" sometime in the next couple of days.  In fact a
quick scan of Nexis includes a citation in which a financial speculator
comments that "the fat lady hasn't sung yet", i.e. all possibilities are
still open.  But who was the first to capture the allusion and unleash it
on a previously unwitting sporting world?  (I'd look it up, but I'm not
sure where or how.)

Larry

P.S.  I'm NOT looking for the semantically related Yogi Berra-ism, "It
ain't over till it's over", although it would be interesting to confirm
that it really did originate with Yogi and not before.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:51:09 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

This expression originated in Southern proverbial lore.  The key evidence
is a 1976 booklet entitled _Southern Words and Sayings_, which has an
entry, "Church ain't out 'till the fat lady sings."  There is an excellent
discussion in Ralph Keyes, _Nice Guys Finish Seventh_.  Keyes reports
several informants who recalled hearing the expression for decades before
it burst into national consciousness during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff
series.  One of the informants said "he never was quite sure what this
saying referred to, but thought that it 'was tied to the perception of
those like me who don't know much about opera that when the fat lady
sings, the opera's about to end.'"  On the other hand, the use of "church"
in the earliest known printed citation suggests the possibility of an
origin not specifically tied to opera.
==================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:54:12 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

My last message may not have really answered the question as to who
unleased the "fat lady" on the sports world.  Bullets coach Dick Motta,
who popularized the slogan during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff series,
got it from _San Antonio Express-News_ sportswriter Dan Cook.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:12:35 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

WHEN A CHURCH AIN'T A CHURCH (AND A SCHOOL AIN'T A SCHOOL NEITHER)

Not necessarily Fred. In my basketball playing days (and even after), the
phrases "School is out" and "Church is out" referred to "intense periods of
play or feverish activity in a game (or even in a fight), when the
participants tried their hardest." Such phrases were even used as
encouragment to fellow players. "OK, school's out. Let's get in there and
kick ass." It seemed also (as my invented routine suggests) to indicate
that any "delicacy" was about to be discarded.

This might be the "church" referred to in the 1976 quote, not making it
into print until long after the height of my basketball career (50's).

dInIs (the jump-shooter)
=======================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:29 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Alice Faber <faber at lenny.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Fat Lady Singing

I've always associated the phrase "the opera ain't over til the fat lady
sings" with Abe Lemons, who was coach of the University of Texas basketball
team in the mid-70s, when I was a graduate student there. I have vivid
memories (perhaps spurious!) of a stack of books by or about Lemons
on display in the Co-op (which, in Austin, is a di-syllable!)
featuring somehow the phrase "fat lady" in the title.
==========================


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct  8 22:48:02 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:48:02 -0700
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154802.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does anyone know what "Schwarzenegger" translates to?

schwarz= black
egge= a harrow;  also a dialect form for 'Ecke' corner, edge, piece

So, his name probably means 'black corner.'  This would be a corner or piece of a field, town, or some such area.  The black could refer to the soil itself, or to an area that was black because it was in the shadows of trees.
Fritz Juengling


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 22:43:56 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:43:56 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty", Mike Kelly & Ms. Montague
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.184356.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The phrase was originally applied to Ms. Montague, by Forepaugh, a circus operator, for publicity purposes.  The entry on Mike Kelly in the American National Biography describes "the Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" as "a moniker borrowed from a stage actress of the day".  "In February 1887 Spalding, the president of the Chicago club, sold Kelly's contract to the Boston Beaneaters for the then-unheard-of sum of $10,000, the first sale of a "star" player in baseball's early history."

As for what shortened Mike Kelly's career -- he was the inspiration for the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" and is in the baseball Hall of Fame -- no doubt the distractions of being a celebrity were a part of it, but I think that his career was hampered and his life cut short (he died in his mid/late 30s) by his lack of "good training habits and self-discipline" (the ANB again) which is to say, he was much given to the drink, "the fault of many a good man", as Si Daedalus says in Ulysses.

As for the caddish remarks on Ms. Montague's inadequate supply of beauty: piffle!  "It is perhaps unnesessary to add that the beauty is a great fraud, and that hundreds of prettier girls visit the show every day."  What do the rubes in Atchison, Kansas know about beautiful dames?  It's true that she was a good solid welterweight, (147 lbs, according to the NPG) but that was the taste of the times.  Her picture is there in the NPG to refute all such cavils.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Clements <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2003 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"

> George,
>
> Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta
> Constitution,  Dec.
> 30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying
> to be
> actors.
>
>     The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in
> this line
> is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-
> dollar Beauty
> of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the
> drawingfeature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."
>
>
> This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before
> your 1890
> cite.
>
> PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the
> actingthat did him in?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
> Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
>
>
> > A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson,
> pitcher for
> the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in
> 1912.  One
> of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
> thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase
> that puzzled
> me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't
> possibly have
> gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant
> to the
> 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had
> been sold
> for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
> >
> > However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a
> catchphrasethrough the end of the 19th C and the first few decades
> of the 20th, meaning
> "the featured attraction".
> >
> > The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical
> Newspapersdatabases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the
> familiarity of the
> expression.
> >
> > 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded
> Romeo Got
> Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and
> Their Cost
> to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
> illustration]
> >         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
> >
> > 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even
> pretty,four years ago, but at the present she could not get an
> engagement with a
> ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries
> a glib
> tongue in her head. . . .
> >         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of
> Certain Star
> Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never
> had a bigger
> "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty,"
> of the
> Boston team.
> >          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
> >
> > 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last
> to Go Into
> Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's
> Work in
> Second Game of Series.  [headline]
> >         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant,
> and am
> known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
> >         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
> ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
> >
> > 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar
> Beauty" of
> Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded
> over the
> country as the “Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,” died on Tuesday at
> her home,
> 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward
> E. Rice's
> company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
> "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her
> beauty the
> feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with
> his circus.
> She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode
> in the
> parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New
> YorkTimes, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
> >
> > 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
> of the
> Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such
> eclat that
> he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen
> off the
> map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
> >
> > 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,]
> and so the
> public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand
> dollarbeauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing
> field.> New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
> >
> > This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
> databases, except for an instance of it used with historical
> reference, from
> the 1930s.
> >
> > For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here
> are two
> items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> > THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's
> Parade To-day.
> [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has
> been so
> fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the
> handsomest woman
> in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early
> this morning.
> . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
> >         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
> >
> > Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde
> with classic
> features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.
> Of medium
> height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight
> is 147
> pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
> narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air,
> though it
> adds ten-fold to her beauty.
> >         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For
> those who
> want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph,
> also on p.
> 12.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> NorthwesternUniv. Pr., 1998.
> >
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  8 23:36:22 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:36:22 -0700
Subject: which rule predicts that asterisk?
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.163622.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

more on the Possessive Antecedent Proscription, this time in response
to recent mail from a non-linguist colleague (who would like to point
out that the message to me "was prompted by a less-than-careful
reading" of huddleston & pullum, The Cambridge Grammar of the English
Language):

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003  8:34:10 AM US/Pacific
> To: ...
>
> On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 03:54 PM, you wrote:
>
>> I write responses to questions of English grammar and usage on a
>> website... Here's  a portion of what I wrote last spring in answer to
>> a query about the controversial
>> PSAT sentence.
>>
>> ...The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language does state that the
>> subjective form of the pronoun may not be used to refer to a
>> possessive
>> noun:
>
> no.  they do not state this.  they state a restriction that rules out
> instances of (retrospectively) anaphoric pronouns, in a very specific
> structural configuration.  it happens that the antecedent in this
> configuration can be either possessive or not, so that some examples
> of pronouns with possessive antecedents happen to be ruled out.
> however, the restriction cited in CGEL -- it's not original with them
> -- wouldn't rule out *any* of the examples [i've cited recently],
> including the toni morrison example from the PSAT.
>
>> ?Without the support of Ann's mother, she would not have survived (not
>> correct)
>
> CGEL gives this one, which i'll label (i), with an asterisk, not a
> question mark.
>
>> The same source, however, presents the following utterance as a
>> (correct)
>> example of reference using the objective form of the pronoun:
>>
>> Without the support of Ann's mother, I wouldn't have been able to
>> persuade
>> her to seek medical help (Section 2.4.1, p. 1478)...
>
> here's the offending configuration:
>
> 1.  retrospective (not anticipatory) anaphora, i.e., the antecedent
> precedes the pronoun; the effect is not found for anticipatory
> anaphora, as CGEL shows.
>
> 2.  the pronoun is the subject of the sentence; the effect is not
> found for pronouns in any other function, as CGEL notes.
>
> 3.  the antecedent is inside a sentence-initial PP (adverbial)
> modifier.  other types of sentence-initial modifiers are fine: cf. (i)
> with
>   (ii) If Ann's mother hadn't given her support, she wouldn't have
> survived.
> (CGEL doesn't say this, but it's implicit in their reference to PP
> specifically.)
>
> 4.  this modifier must be *preposed*, not merely sentence-initial.
> that is, there must be some sense in which the modifier "belongs" in
> the VP.  ordinary sentence-modifying PPs are fine (so long as there's
> no problem with foregrounding/topicality/etc.); CGEL gives
>   (iii) In view of Paul's special circumstances, he was given extra
> time.
> to which i can add things like
>   (iv) According to Paul's view of the universe, he deserved extra
> time.
>   (v)  In Toni Morrison's latest book, she attacks her critics.
>
> CGEL carefully uses the word "preposed", but without laying out why
> "sentence-initial" would not have sufficed.  this is a subtlety that
> most readers probably won't appreciate.  if you don't catch that, then
> you'd expect (v) to be bad, and (v) is a type of example that *does*
> figure in many handbook discussions of the PAP.  but even if you miss
> the subtlety, the CGEL restriction doesn't rule out
>   (vi) Toni Morrison's genius enables her...
>
> note that possessives aren't specifically mentioned in any of this.
> the antecedent in question can be either possessive or not; CGEL gives
> two examples of each.
>
> but... wait!  a reasonable person might look at the four clauses in
> the proscription above and throw up the hands in horror.  why on earth
> should *just this* assortment of conditions produce ungrammaticality?
>
> there is a very nice answer to this, due (if i remember correctly) to
> george lakoff, from a long time ago:  sentences with truly preposed
> initial PP modifiers show the same conditions on anaphor-antecedent
> linkages as sentences with the PP modifiers where they "belong"; (i)
> is bad because (vii) -- a classic violation of the precede-command
> constraint on such linkages (in my opinion, one of the very few
> genuinely structural conditions on them..) -- is bad:
>   (vii) She would not have survived without the support of Ann's
> mother.
> (out on the reading in which "she" refers to Ann).
>
> so... there are some wonderfully fascinating phenomena here, but they
> have nothing in particular to do with the PAP.
>
> arnold
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 03:41:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:41:07 -0400
Subject: Jalapeno pepper (February 1937)
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.234107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest is now at April 1937.
   Merriam-Webster has 1939 for "jalapeno."  OED has 1949.  The (Popik) Online Historical Dictionary of Food and Drink has--no, wait a minute, I do parking tickets.



      Strength of Rail Group Features Market Rally
       GEORGE T HUGHES.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 9, 1937.                   p. A17 (2 pages) :
(Continued on Pg. 21--ed.)
   PEPPERS--Mex. Cal. Wonders, 6 at 7 pound; green chili and yellow chili, 11 at 12; Jalapeno peppers, 9 at 10 pound.


      Rediscovering Los Angeles
       TIMOTHY G TURNER.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 2, 1935.                   p. A1 (1 page):
   Dishes that are called "Spanish" by Americans are usually not Spanish, but Mexican.  Those black beans are quite typical of Mexico.  Garbanzos (chick peas) are the true Spanish vegetable.  Likewise tamales and enchiladas are unknown to the Spanish, being as Mexican as doughnuts and popcorn are Yankee.  As for chile con carne, that is a dish that is not known in either Spain or Mexico.  It is rather bad Spanish, for why should the sauce be put before the meat?  Yet it is a dish of native origin, and not synthetic like the mock Chinese chop suey.  Chile con carne is probably a local native Texan dish which has spread along the border but not into Mexico.
   The little cafes like "El Capricho de los Dorados" that are found in the Mexican districts of Los Angeles have all these dishes and many more, tacos and menudo and the fiery mole.  You have your choice of French bread or the native tortilla, the pancakelike corn bread that is as typically Mexican as can be.  Some serve the Mexican "comida corrida," which has few or none of those native folk dishes, formulated in Roman times which beings with a soup and ends with a sweet.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 03:55:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:55:32 -0400
Subject: B and B; another BTL (1937)
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.235532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Almost a BLT.


      Cook's Notebook
       RUTH CHAMBERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 8, 1937.                   p. A8 (1 page) :
_MY FAVORITE SANDWICH_
   For me, no sandwich comes quite up to bacon, tomato, and lettuce layers between toasted whole wheat bread.  This sandwich has a convenient two-way possibility--it may be either a straight sandwich between two slices of toast or it may become a decker or club sandwich.
(...)
   Good old baked beans and bacon appear together in
_B AND B SANDWICH_
   Fry bacon until crisp.  Delicately brown slices of bread in bacon fat.  Heat baked beans and put a generous spoonful on one side of bread.  Over this pour a spoonful of chili sauce.  Place two slices of bacon on top, and then another slice of bread.  Cut across diagonally and serve.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 06:44:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 02:44:38 EDT
Subject: Radio Glossary (1935), with hand "OK" sign, "Peace" sign
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.024438.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S NEW TERMS COMPILED
       CARROLL NYE.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Jul 7, 1935.              p. A6 (1 page)


   I sure had a difficult time reading this.  The NYPL doesn't pick up the
LOS ANGELES TIMES this early.  I might have to go to the Library of Congress
again, and it's closed on Monday (Columbus Day).
   In addition to the word glossary, there are hand signs that were used in
radio.  One is the "OK" sign.  This 1935 date is about two years earlier than
the Ballantine Beer ad campaign, and about five years earlier than the chef
usage (made famous on pizza boxes).
   There's also a "V for Victory" or "Peace" hand sign here.
   Just a wonderful article, if only I could read it.  I'll post the cite
here now for easy reference.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct  9 18:50:29 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:50:29 -0400
Subject: Are you a Yooper?
In-Reply-To: <15.1a2c07d8.2cb65dd6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.145029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I need a native Yooper to clear up a query for me - preferably a
Yooper in the Central Time Zone.

If you fit the bill, please drop me a line.

Thanks.

-- Steve Kleinedler


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 18:54:57 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:54:57 +0000
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.185457.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following article has been sent to you from the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com):

- - - - - - - - - - -

Message:

Our own Jesse S. made it to the Free Press (the 'Freep') this morning.  Of course the word in question is more than half a millennium old, but who's counting?

- - - - - - - - - - -

Published October  9, 2003
http://www.freep.com/features/living/ager9_20031009.htm

SUSAN AGER: Overuse robs shock word of its power

BY SUSAN AGER
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST





Now that California has chosen as its leader a man who admits to having groped women, it's time to lift the flimsy veil off the F-word and let it stand proudly. It's half a millennium old, a synonym for nookie that has matured into an all-purpose adjective and exclamation for our times.


It's been mainstreamed, by you and me.


This week, the Federal Communications Commission merely shrugged over complaints that U2 singer Bono had violated TV obscenity standards by uttering these words on a music awards show: "This is really, really
(F-word)ing brilliant."


Apart from 200-some complaints from an organized lobby to clean up TV, only 17 average Joes and Janes complained to the FCC. It concluded the word was OK because Bono used a variant that had nothing to do with sex.

Between the bleeps


On CNN, the darling young anchor Anderson Cooper explained the ruling this way: "Bono didn't violate the law because what he said, quote, 'does not describe sexual or excretory organs,' or for that matter the filthy, disgusting things people do with them. In other words he meant (bleep)ing, the merely crude adjective, not (bleep), the reprehensible verb.


"The FCC also says it's OK to use such words as an insult. In other words, I can call you a (bleep)er, but not because you (bleep)ed my sister.


"If it gets too confusing for you, well, (bleep) you."


Anderson Cooper, who is young, droll and cute, used the F-word nine times on the world's most popular TV network. The bleeps were so brief you could hear every F and K.


I wonder when these silly games will end. We all know what he said. A 6-year-old knows! These tricks only amuse and titillate, the way a woman's skimpy swimsuit provokes more leering than she might if she took it all off.


A few days ago, this newspaper printed an article about a British fashion company whose logo -- FCUK -- is upsetting oldsters while sucking the money from youngsters' wallets.


We printed this non-word, and we're printing it again. But we cannot print the F-word spelled correctly.


The venerable New York Times has broken its own rules and printed the F-word only once, in a transcript of the Starr Report. Monica Lewinsky complained that Bill Clinton "helped (F-word) up my life."

Ask the expert


I learned that sweet bit of trivia from the world's foremost authority on the F-word. His name is Jesse Sheidlower. He is a 35-year-old linguist. He is the principal North American editor of the esteemed Oxford English Dictionary.


And he is the author of "The F Word" (Random House, out of print).


"There's no question," he told me from his office in Manhattan, "that in the last 10 to 15 years, it's been increasingly acceptable and appearing in places it never appeared in the past." Such as the New Yorker magazine. Such as HBO. Such as Canadian and British newspapers, where columnists use it in their very first paragraphs.


The FCC ruled correctly, he says, because the F-word is rarely used anymore in sexual references, but most often as what he called "a general intensifier."


For example, That hulking groper is now the (F-word)ing governor!


We'll never lose obscenities, Sheidlower says, "because we'll always need vocabulary that shocks." New words will creep up. Old words will be recast. But the F-word?


It's common, passe and, in most circumstances, impotent.



Copyright � 2003 Detroit Free Press Inc.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct  9 19:14:39 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:14:39 -0400
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
In-Reply-To: <200310091854.SAA06677@m0591nwk1.cust.loudcloud.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.151439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 06:54:57PM +0000, Geoff Nathan wrote:
> The following article has been sent to you from the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com):
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Message:

>  Our own Jesse S. made it to the Free Press (the 'Freep')
> this morning.  Of course the word in question is more than
> half a millennium old, but who's counting?

Thanks. It's also the case that _The F-Word_ is not out of print,
but whatever.

JTS


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Oct  9 20:24:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:24:09 -0400
Subject: jazzer, 1896
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.162409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an 1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between "Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 -- then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.

Quickly consulting some indexes to the names in the late 19th C/early 20th C U. S. censuses, I find that the name Jazzer or Jasser appeared in Alabama in 1870 and in New York in 1900.  In 1910, in the NYC section of the census, there were 6 Jassers and 1 Jazzer.  The name did not show up in Massachusetts census indexes.  These indexes are to the names of the heads of households listed in the notebooks the census-takers carried about.  Nearly all of the notebooks from the 1890 census were destroyed in a fire very many years ago, and the notebooks from the 1870, 1880, 1900 & 1910 censues for some of the states have not yet been indexed.  It's obviously a very uncommon name, but a few people carried it in this country before 1896.
RLIN shows no book by a Jazzer, but a dozen or so by Jasser, most in German, but it seems also possiible as an Arab name.

So perhaps the contriver of this joke, not wanting to use the usual names for his interlocutors, such as He & She, or Pat & Mike, &c., used a couple of names he had somewhere come upon and remembered as inherently comical.

If so, then it saves us the problem of contriving a history of the word "Jazz" that would account for its giving rise in 1896 in Massachusetts to a nickname apparently meaning "One who jazzes".  Which would be a blessing.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 20:45:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:45:02 -0400
Subject: A la mode (1641)
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.164502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED and Merriam-Webster have 1649 or 1650 for "a la mode" (no "pie").  EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE will be getting some improvements in November, but we can still beat the word wizards.


Author: Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?
Title: Englands safety in trades encrease most humbly presented to the high court of Parliament / by Henry Robinson ...
Publication date: 1641.
ENGLANDS SAFETY IN TRADES ENCREASE.
• ... ns, and what else is deem'd requi|site to the accomplish't apparelling (so thought at present) �  la mode, wherein all Europe speake true French though not the same Dialect, for where all us ...


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Oct  9 21:44:44 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:44:44 -0400
Subject: A la mode (1641)
In-Reply-To: <16017B49.16787DFF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.174444.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our date was 1646, actually, but you still beat us.

Oh well, now we'll know how to dress for Halloween, battered
wands and all.  Do you supposed we'd be allowed to march in the
Village parade?



Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct  9 21:46:54 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:46:54 -0700
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
In-Reply-To: <200310091854.SAA06677@m0591nwk1.cust.loudcloud.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.144654.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Apart from 200-some complaints from an organized
> lobby to clean up TV, only 17 average Joes and Janes
> complained to the FCC. It concluded the word was OK
> because Bono used a variant that had nothing to do
> with sex.

Is Susan Ager implying that someone besides these
217-some people actually pay attention to music awards
programs?




=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Oct  9 22:10:12 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:10:12 -0400
Subject: WOTY: taikonaut
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0310091448090.23079@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.181012.0400.>

taikonaut, n., Chinese astronaut, from "taikong" meaning space, cosmos +
"-naut"

This one isn't exactly new, Google groups has it from 2000 and it's listed
in Wordspy, but if it gets a lot of play in coming weeks it will be a
worthwhile nominee.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 23:02:52 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:02:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.190252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

musicologist (OED3 1915)

1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

Fred Shapiro


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                          Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and  YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research  Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                          forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu            http://quotationdictionary.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 00:03:13 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:03:13 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Atonal"
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.200313.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

atonal (OED 1922)

1911 _Musical Times_ 1 Dec. 777  Not only these soft 'atonal'
harmonies, but also the harsher whole-tone scales and aggregates ...
appear in several parts of 'Boris Godounov'.

Fred Shapiro


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                          Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and  YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research  Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                          forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu            http://quotationdictionary.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 00:20:46 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:20:46 -0400
Subject: "Murphy's Law" in Cleveland Plain Dealer
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.202046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The article below may be of interest to Murphyologists on this list.
As usual, I don't necessarily agree with everything imputed to me by
the reporter.

Fred Shapiro


                         Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio)

                     October 2, 2003 Thursday, Final / All

SECTION: NATIONAL; Pg. A1

LENGTH: 859 words

HEADLINE: One thing may go right for Murphy;
Famed law's namesake and other former aerospace engineers up for award

BYLINE: Bill Sloat, Plain Dealer Reporter

BODY:

   Dayton - Capt. Edward Murphy was a young engineer at the Wright
Field Aircraft Lab in the 1940s and 1950s when he helped launch one of
Ohio's oddest inventions - Murphy's Law.

   Most people know the law: Anything that can go wrong, will.

   But they don't know about Murphy, who is often described as an
imaginary, all-thumbs oaf who appeared in military cartoons.

   But Capt. Murphy, an all-but-for- gotten aerospace pioneer, will
start to get his due tonight at Harvard University.

   In a ceremony honoring some of the science world's wackiest
discoveries and research projects, Murphy is up for an Ig Nobel Prize.
The awards, in their 13th year, honor achievements that first make
people laugh, then make them think, said event organizer Marc Abrahams.

   Four real Nobel Prize winners will hand out tonight's Ig Nobels,
Abrahams said.

   The ceremony will be broadcast live online at www.improbable.com,
and unless something goes wrong, Murphy is considered a shoo-in for
the engineering award.

   Murphy died in 1990. His son, Edward, is expected to attend
tonight's ceremony.

   A handful of authors, historians and word sleuths have traced the
law's origin back to Murphy, who showed up at Edwards Air Force Base
in California for a day and half in 1949 during a rocket-sled test.

   Murphy brought G-force sensors developed in his Ohio lab -now part
of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base - for the experiment, which were
supposed to measure how much acceleration a human body could withstand
before turning into mush.

   George Nichols, an 83-year-old retired Northrop aerospace engineer,
was present when the sensors malfunctioned because they had been
installed incorrectly.

   Nichols said Murphy chewed out a technician and exclaimed, "If
there's a way to do it wrong, he will!"

   Nichols, who will share the Ig Nobel award with Murphy and the late
rocket-sled pilot, John Paul Stapp, said in a telephone interview from
his home in California that he christened the axiom Murphy's Law. He
said it quickly metamorphosed into, "If it can happen, it will happen"
at Edwards.

   It spread rapidly through the aerospace world and eventually
morphed into the version that's widely known today.

   "He was an obstinate fellow," Nichols recalled. "He cussed at the
technician."

   Nichols remembers Murphy as a spit-and-polish officer from West
Point.

   "We were more casual at Edwards; you might call it laid back. We
were off by ourselves at the North Base," Nichols said. "Being a West
Pointer, he was more than a typical officer. He had a pretty good
opinion of himself."

   Fred Shapiro, editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations, said it
is possible that Murphy's Law had other origins. Still, he's fairly
certain Harvard is honoring the right guys.

   "Others have suggested an origin in science-fiction fan circles, or
from a bigoted tradition of associating Irish people with
incompetence," Shapiro said. "I believe Nichols, Murphy and Stapp
originated Murphy's Law."

   He said America's original astronauts helped spread the story that
Murphy was a fictional character. And it turns out that retired Sen.
John Glenn, America's first astronaut to orbit the Earth, was the
source of the story that Murphy was an all-thumbs mechanic.

   Glenn wrote in "We Seven" - co-authored in 1962 by the seven
original astronauts - that Murphy was prone to making mistakes in the
Navy educational cartoons. In a chapter titled "Glitches in Time Save
Trouble," Glenn said the cartoon Murphy would put propellers on
backward or forget to tighten bolts.

   "He finally became such an institution that someone thought up a
principle of human error called Murphy's Law. It went like this: Any
part that can be installed wrong will be installed wrong at some point
by someone," Glenn wrote 41 years ago.

   In an interview this week, Glenn said he had probably made a
mistake.

   "I should have made that Dilbert instead of Murphy. I never knew
that Murphy's Law had anything to do with a real person," Glenn said.

   Glenn met Stapp during the early days of the astronaut program. "He
made some wild rides out there on the rocket sled," Glenn said. "He
was designing restraint harnesses for cockpits. I never knew he worked
on Murphy's Law, too."

   Author and historian Nick T. Spark once found a recorded interview
that Murphy did sometime after 1977 in which he was asked if he
regretted being associated with Murphy's Law.

   "No, I enjoy it," Murphy said in the interview. "Everybody likes to
think they have discovered a wonderful thing when they hear Murphy's
Law for the first time."

   Historians, writing in the Air Force publication Leading Edge,
delved into the tale of Murphy's Law and concluded that the genius of
Murphy, Nichols and Stapp went overlooked - just as their law
forewarns.

   "Perhaps it's to be expected that the participants at the creation
of the law would also be affected by it, especially one of its more
well known corollaries: On the rare occasion something is successful,
the wrong person will get the credit."

   To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:bsloat at plaind.com, 513-631-4125


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 19:39:39 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:39:39 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law Article in Cleve. Plain Dealer
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.153939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought the article below might be of interest to some of the
Murphyologists on this list.  As usual, I don't necessarily agree with
everything imputed to me by the reporter.

Fred Shapiro


                         Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio)

                     October 2, 2003 Thursday, Final / All

SECTION: NATIONAL; Pg. A1

LENGTH: 859 words

HEADLINE: One thing may go right for Murphy;
Famed law's namesake and other former aerospace engineers up for award

BYLINE: Bill Sloat, Plain Dealer Reporter

BODY:

   Dayton - Capt. Edward Murphy was a young engineer at the Wright Field
Aircraft Lab in the 1940s and 1950s when he helped launch one of Ohio's oddest
inventions - Murphy's Law.

     Most people know the law: Anything that can go wrong, will.

     But they don't know about Murphy, who is often described as an imaginary,
all-thumbs oaf who appeared in military cartoons.

     But Capt. Murphy, an all-but-for- gotten aerospace pioneer, will start to
get his due tonight at Harvard University.

               In a ceremony honoring some of the science world's wackiest
discoveries and research projects, Murphy is up for an Ig Nobel Prize. The
awards, in their 13th year, honor achievements that first make people laugh,
then make them think, said event organizer Marc Abrahams.

     Four real Nobel Prize winners will hand out tonight's Ig Nobels, Abrahams
said.

     The ceremony will be broadcast live online at www.improbable.com, and
unless something goes wrong, Murphy is considered a shoo-in for the engineering
award.

     Murphy died in 1990. His son, Edward, is expected to attend tonight's
ceremony.

     A handful of authors, historians and word sleuths have traced the law's
origin back to Murphy, who showed up at Edwards Air Force Base in California for
a day and half in 1949 during a rocket-sled test.

   Murphy brought G-force sensors developed in his Ohio lab -now part of
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base - for the experiment, which were supposed to
measure how much acceleration a human body could withstand before turning into
mush.

     George Nichols, an 83-year-old retired Northrop aerospace engineer, was
present when the sensors malfunctioned because they had been installed
incorrectly.

     Nichols said Murphy chewed out a technician and exclaimed, "If there's a
way to do it wrong, he will!"

     Nichols, who will share the Ig Nobel award with Murphy and the late
rocket-sled pilot, John Paul Stapp, said in a telephone interview from his home
in California that he christened the axiom Murphy's Law. He said it quickly
metamorphosed into, "If it can happen, it will happen" at Edwards.

     It spread rapidly through the aerospace world and eventually morphed into
the version that's widely known today.

     "He was an obstinate fellow," Nichols recalled. "He cussed at the
technician."

     Nichols remembers Murphy as a spit-and-polish officer from West Point.

     "We were more casual at Edwards; you might call it laid back. We were off
by ourselves at the North Base," Nichols said. "Being a West Pointer, he was
more than a typical officer. He had a pretty good opinion of himself."

     Fred Shapiro, editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations, said it is
possible that Murphy's Law had other origins. Still, he's fairly certain Harvard
is honoring the right guys.

     "Others have suggested an origin in science-fiction fan circles, or from a
bigoted tradition of associating Irish people with incompetence," Shapiro said.
"I believe Nichols, Murphy and Stapp originated Murphy's Law."

     He said America's original astronauts helped spread the story that Murphy
was a fictional character. And it turns out that retired Sen. John Glenn,
America's first astronaut to orbit the Earth, was the source of the story that
Murphy was an all-thumbs mechanic.

     Glenn wrote in "We Seven" - co-authored in 1962 by the seven original
astronauts - that Murphy was prone to making mistakes in the Navy educational
cartoons. In a chapter titled "Glitches in Time Save Trouble," Glenn said the
cartoon Murphy would put propellers on backward or forget to tighten bolts.

     "He finally became such an institution that someone thought up a principle
of human error called Murphy's Law. It went like this: Any part that can be
installed wrong will be installed wrong at some point by someone," Glenn wrote
41 years ago.

     In an interview this week, Glenn said he had probably made a mistake.

     "I should have made that Dilbert instead of Murphy. I never knew that
Murphy's Law had anything to do with a real person," Glenn said.

     Glenn met Stapp during the early days of the astronaut program. "He made
some wild rides out there on the rocket sled," Glenn said. "He was designing
restraint harnesses for cockpits. I never knew he worked on Murphy's Law, too."

     Author and historian Nick T. Spark once found a recorded interview that
Murphy did sometime after 1977 in which he was asked if he regretted being
associated with Murphy's Law.

     "No, I enjoy it," Murphy said in the interview. "Everybody likes to think
they have discovered a wonderful thing when they hear Murphy's Law for the first
time."

     Historians, writing in the Air Force publication Leading Edge, delved into
the tale of Murphy's Law and concluded that the genius of Murphy, Nichols and
Stapp went overlooked - just as their law forewarns.

     "Perhaps it's to be expected that the participants at the creation of the
law would also be affected by it, especially one of its more well known
corollaries: On the rare occasion something is successful, the wrong person will
get the credit."

   To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:bsloat at plaind.com, 513-631-4125


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 20:31:14 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:31:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
In-Reply-To: <22fe21122ffdf9.22ffdf922fe211@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.163114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

musicologist (OED3 1915)

1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 21:01:52 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:01:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Atonal"
In-Reply-To: <16017B49.16787DFF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.170152.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

atonal (OED 1922)

1911 _Musical Times_ 1 Dec. 777  Not only these soft 'atonal' harmonies,
but also the harsher whole-tone scales and aggregates ... appear in
several parts of 'Boris Godounov'.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 05:38:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:38:42 EDT
Subject: Yo-Yo, Pansit/Pancit (1961 translation of 1888)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.013842.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REMINISCENCES AND TRAVELS OF JOSE RIZAL
Translated and annotated by
Engarnacion Alzona
Manila: Jose Rizal National Centennial Commission
1961

   "Compliments of Engarnacion Alzona" was on the cover.  By the translator's
name was written "Ph.D. Columbia."  I read the book at Columbia University.
   Rizal traveled to the Far East and to Europe.


Pg. 9 (28 October 1878):  I returned home and I went to the orchard to look
for a _mabolo_* to eat.
   *_Mabolo_ or _mabulo_ (_Diaspyros discolor_ Willd.) is a tree that bears
fruit pf the same name.  When ripe, it is fragrant, fleshy, sweet, and satis
fying.
(It's Filipino.  Not in the revised OED.  Google has 2,800 hits, including
some English language dictionaries--ed.)

Pg. 10 (28 October 1878):  I studied my lesson, I drew a little, and
afterwards I took my supper consisting of one or two dishes of rice with an
_ayungin_.*
   *_Ayungin_ is the name of a small (about 12 centimeters long) fresh water,
inexpensive fish.  (_Therapon plumbeus_ Kner.)
(It's Filipino.  Not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 140 (12 February 1888):  I ate at the house of Mr. Basa at midday; we had
_pansit_.*
   *A dish of Chinese noodles.
(Filipino dish.  Again, not in OED.  About 4,200 Google hits.  Also
"pancit"--ed.)

Pg. 181 (15 November 1891):  In the stores I saw sugar apples, _sotanjun_
(mongo bean noodles), _mike_ (flour noodles), pineapple, bananas, and (Pg.
182--ed.) ginger, just like in the stores in Manila.  We took pictures of some
tombs.  The excursion cost us one peso round trip in a carriage drawn by one horse.
 The market reminded me of the _palenque_.*
   *In the Philippines a market is often called _palenque_ or _palenke_.

Pg. 261 (9 February 1886):  The geese announced to me that I was nearing
Strasbourg, the city of the _foie gras_, a delicacy made of the fat or swollen
liver of geese of which much is sold.

Pg. 304 (27 July 1888):  I got acquainted there with many people, and as I
was carrying a _yo-yo_* the Europeans and the Americans marvelled at the way I
used it as an offensive weapon.
   *A toy, a small disc that fits in the hollow of the hand with a string
attached to it, and can be thrown in any direction by the holder and comes back
to him.
(OED and Merriam-Webster have 1915 for "yo-yo."  From Filipino?--ed.)

Pg. 313 (1888):  Before his departure for abroad, we decided among various
members of the Filipino colony to offer him a modest dinner whose characteristic
dish was _pansit_* prepared by a fellow countryman, Pedro Arcenas, with
_bijon_ and _mique_* obtained from a Filipino family.
   *_Pansit_ is a favorite dish of the Filipinos.  It is made of noodles
called _bijon_, made of rice, or _mique_, made of flour, with pork, shrimps,
chicken, and other ingredients sauteed with garlic and onions.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Oct 10 05:52:08 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:52:08 -0400
Subject: Yo-Yo, Pansit/Pancit (1961 translation of 1888)
In-Reply-To: <b4.23539c73.2cb79fe2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.015208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Pg. 140 (12 February 1888):  I ate at the house of Mr. Basa at midday; we had
>_pansit_.*
>    *A dish of Chinese noodles.
>(Filipino dish.  Again, not in OED.  About 4,200 Google hits.  Also
>"pancit"--ed.)

This is in MW3.

>Pg. 181 (15 November 1891):  In the stores I saw sugar apples, _sotanjun_
>(mongo bean noodles), _mike_ (flour noodles), pineapple, bananas, and (Pg.
>182--ed.) ginger, just like in the stores in Manila.  We took pictures of some
>tombs.  The excursion cost us one peso round trip in a carriage drawn by
>one horse.
>  The market reminded me of the _palenque_.*
>    *In the Philippines a market is often called _palenque_ or _palenke_.

"Palenque" seems to be originally Spanish (= "palisade" etc.), as are many
Philippine words.

>Pg. 304 (27 July 1888):  I got acquainted there with many people, and as I
>was carrying a _yo-yo_* the Europeans and the Americans marvelled at the way I
>used it as an offensive weapon.
>    *A toy, a small disc that fits in the hollow of the hand with a string
>attached to it, and can be thrown in any direction by the holder and comes
>back
>to him.
>(OED and Merriam-Webster have 1915 for "yo-yo."  From Filipino?--ed.)

 From the Philippines. From what language ultimately, I don't know:
apparently when the word was adopted into English it was already used in
multiple Philippine languages. At least that's the best information I could
get when I looked into it a while back.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 06:57:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:57:32 EDT
Subject: Tether Ball (1897)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.025732.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Jon Stewart's THE DAILY SHOW (catch the Comedy Central re-run at 7 p.m.)
had a tether ball joke.
    Who invented tether ball, and when?
    OED and Merriam-Webstger have circa 1900.


   2 November 1897, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 4?, col. 4:
(Also the same day in MARION DAILY STAR, Marion, Ohio--ed.)
      _Tether Ball._
   The new game of tether ball requires two tennis rackets and a ball
fastened to a post about eight feet high by a string.  When evenly matched, the
rounds last a good while, and the game becomes most exciting.  The ball is far from
easy to hit, as it comes with great force in a circular direction, but if you
miss it once, several more chances are afforded you.  The tope's length and
the height of the post should be arranged by rule.  The rules of play are
rather elastic, and may be formulated by the players.  The game has this much in
its favor--it can be played in any ordinary yard, even a small one.

   21 April 1900, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 4, col. 3:
   _Do you play tether ball?_  You should  lots of fun and exercise: a ball
on the end of a long string tied to the top of a long pole; two of you with
tennis racquets try to wind it up in opposite directions.  Sounds simple  try it.
(Wanamaker's of Philadelphia ad--ed.)

   31 October 1900, DAILY HERALD (Delphos, Ohio), pg.2?, col. 2:
      _A New Game._
   Tether ball is in high vogue.  It affords amusement and outdoor exercise.
It is played by means of a pole nine feet long, to which a rope and tennis
ball are attached.  Two play the game; one hitting the ball with a tennis racket
in one direction, while the other hits it in an opposite direction.  Whoever
succeeds in winding the rope entirely around the top of the pole has won the
game.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 07:57:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:57:52 EDT
Subject: Masamora, Achota, Boya, Bollo, Arracacha, Mochilla, Ruana (1838)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.035752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BOGOTA
IN 1836-7
by J. Steuart
New-York: Harper & Brothers
1838

   No one from OED has read this book in its 165 years?


Pg. 78:  When seven miles distant from Nare we reached the bodega
(storehouse), a very neat brick building, the roof covered with tiles, having a house and
garden attached for the accommodation of the keeper.

Pg. 121:  If a person wishes to send a hundred doubloons to the seaboard, he
must place them in one of the little bags of the country, called mochillas;...
   (The revised OED has 1856 for mochila--ed.)

Pg. 150:  _Living._--Their style of cooking is peculiarly their own.  I speak
thus, as I have never been in Spain nor in any other Spanish province before.
 (Pg. 151--ed.)  If it be Spanish, then Heaven defend me from all such.
Their chocolate, and a dish called "masamora," with any of their thousand and one
"dulces" or preserves, are all that can be mentioned in favour of native
cookery.  In the houses of the more fashionable and opulent, the dishes generally
are a mixture of the French and English; more, however, of the former.  But the
daily rations of a peon (labourer) are soon described.  If he keeps house,
his breakfast consists of chocolate.  A soup is boiled rice, and a vegetable
like the parsnip, called arracacha, all simmered together in a flood of
hog's-lard, the whole highly coloured with a pod they call achota, which produces a
yellow colour; a handful of cumin-seed is added to this, and then they have
prepared their general breakfast.  Sometimes, when circumstances admit, they add to
their rice a few pieces of meat.  Bread, being high, is seldom used, but its
place is supplied by either a sort of hard dumpling, made of Indian cornmeal,
called "boya," or the cassava bread.  Another great national dish is that of
"masamora."  This is a thick soup, made of Indian cornmeal, potatoes boiled to
a jelly, onions, and pieces of beef; which, when free from the cumin-seed, is
a most excellent dish.  There is no such thing as a fork used by  this class
of the people, and but, perhaps, a single knife at table, which serves not the
purposes of eating, but is used for scraping vegetables and preparing their
food; a spoon, and a liberal use of nature's own flesh-forks, constitute all
their table cutlery.  The plantain is never out of the houses of either rich or
poor.  They eat it fried, roasted, boiled, and raw; and it is their great
staple, though not to be compared with those on the Magdalena.  Chicha is in
general use.  This is peculiarly the drink of the poor, although I have seen even
foreigners use it.  It is kept in huge earthen jars, wrapped round with green
hide (Pg. 152--ed.)  to preserve them; it sells for about four or six cents a
quart.  A large tituma (calabash) is filled, which is passed round from one to
another throughout even a large company!

Pg. 152:  From eight to nine he breakfasts on arracacha soup, or rice well
greased; fried eggs, seasoned with garlic; boiled potatoes, bread, and a dish of
fried beef, which is cut into small strips, without a particle of fat,
seasoned well with cumin-seed and garlic, and so over-done that the juices of the
meat are entirely dried up; this they eat with a spoon.  These people are also
fond of a dish called bollo; it looks like an apple-dumpling, and is made with
pieces of pork, (Pg. 153--ed.) and seasoned like the dried beef, and well
smothered in hog's-lard, all enclosed in a thick paste and boiled.  The coffee and
chocolate are not drank with their meat, but immediately afterward, and then
the same small cup is made use of as in the morning.

Pg. 154:  ...a shirt of the same material, and over all a short ruana of the
coarsest cotton or woolen cloth, sometimes parti-coloured and sometimes plain
drab.  This national coat is from one and a half to two and a half yards
square, with an aperture left in the centre just of sufficient width to admit the
head.
(OED has 1942 for "ruana"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  Another class, called the "cachacao," or dandies, have cast aside
the national ruana except when they ride,...

Pg, 168:  The civil arm is the only check upon the grossness and presumption
of the indolent hive; and  government is certainly commendable for the
promptitude and tact with which they have, within a few years, clipped the wings of
these gallinazas (a Bogota nickname for friars, meaning turkey-buzzards).

Pg. 234:  La Mesa and Chuachi are the two places in "tierra caliente" mostly
resorted to by invalids, or by those who wish to spend a month or so away from
the city during the prevalence of the blustering, chilling gales, termed here
"paramos."


(NOTES ON COLOMBIA (1827) and TRAVELS IN SOUTH AMERICA (1825) tomorrow.  I
got parking tickets to do--ed.)


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Fri Oct 10 11:11:39 2003
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:11:39 -0700
Subject: Futurity
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.041139.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi all. I have a question for you on the different
semantics involved in the two following sentences.
What is your perception of each statement as far as
futurity is concerned:

- Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'LL
paint it yellow.

- Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'S
GOING TO paint it yellow.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this
aspect-related �predicament�.

Pete Lombardo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 13:04:09 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:04:09 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.090409.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:31:14 -0400, Fred Shapiro <
> fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> quotes:
>
> musicologist (OED3 1915)
>
> 1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
> The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
> considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to refer to
the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best of my
knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is used in
music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.

       - Jim Landau


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:28:29 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:28:29 -0700
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
In-Reply-To: <b9.37603062.2cb80849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.072829.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 06:04 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to
> refer to
> the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best
> of my
> knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is
> used in
> music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.

this is exactly backwards.  the musicological term is "temperament",
and "temper" refers only to an emotional state.

randel's New Harvard Dictionary of Music has an entry for "temperament"
and doesn't mention "temper".  meanwhile, isacoff's 2002 book about
selecting the tones of a musical scale is entitled Temperament.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:52:04 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:52:04 -0700
Subject: Futurity
In-Reply-To: <20031010111139.63156.qmail@web40605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.075204.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 04:11 AM, Pete Lombardo wrote:

> Hi all. I have a question for you on the different
> semantics involved in the two following sentences.
> What is your perception of each statement as far as
> futurity is concerned:
>
> - Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'LL
> paint it yellow.
>
> - Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'S
> GOING TO paint it yellow.

this is a standard topic in grammars, both scholarly and pedagogical,
of english.  the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language has a
compact discussion on pp. 211-2.  CGEL identifies three differences in
interpretation: "be going to" has a greater focus on the time
associated with the matrix (as opposed to complement) verb; the
preterite of "be going to" doesn't entail that the complement situation
was actualized; and "be going to" conveys intention, while "will"
conveys willingness or volition.  check out their examples.

while both examples above could be used to convey a simple prediction
about the future or a report of a decision made by mary ann to take
some action, the first sentence is more likely to have the first
interpretation, and the second the second.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:55:27 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:55:27 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Lyricist"
In-Reply-To: <b9.37603062.2cb80849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.105527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

lyricist (OED, 2., 1909)

1904 _Wash. Post_ 24 Feb.  In one instance only has he rewritten the words
to a song.  This was wise, as the amateur lyricist is a person to be
shunned.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Oct 10 15:15:14 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:15:14 +0100
Subject: Antedating of "Lyricist"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310101053080.19205-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.161514.0100.>

> lyricist (OED, 2., 1909)
>
> 1904 _Wash. Post_ 24 Feb.  In one instance only has he rewritten the
> words to a song.  This was wise, as the amateur lyricist is a person to
> be shunned.

I can't improve on that in relation to songs, but I have just
accidentally antedated the poetic sense, which OED dates from 1881:

1875 Scribners Monthly May 105/2 For our part, we are content with a
much less range for her, believing her to be a fine and faithful
lyricist, and though to some extent visibly affected by Emerson, yet
hardly injuriously so,--if not a great original power, still a figure
unique among women poets, and, we think, the strongest woman poet yet
arisen in America. [Via MoA, Cornell]

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Oct 10 15:41:22 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:41:22 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.114122.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore

>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm (emphasis added)
  As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida, Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis, they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging wave of popular disgust. 
"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or two.
Seán Fitzpatrick


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Oct 10 18:46:51 2003
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:46:51 +0000
Subject: temper / temperament
In-Reply-To: <20031010142836.1CE79541A@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.184651.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any scale (or instrument so tuned) whose intervals deviate from the Pythagorean
ratios (octave=2/1, fifth=3/2, fourth=4/3, etc) is said to be "tempered".  The
title of J. S. Bach's set of preludes and fugues in all 24 keys to be played on
a single instrument is usually translated into English as "The Well-tempered
Clavier".  The system by which these ratios are adjusted is called
the "temperament".  Modern pianos are tuned using "equal temperament" in which
all half-steps have a ratio of the twelfth root of two to one.  When
tuners "lay the temperament" they tune 12 notes in the middle of the piano.
After that, they tune octaves going up and down from the middle.  Other
temperaments are sometimes used on organs, harpsichords, or when requested by
early music performers.

Background:  the problem is that the Pythagorean ratios don't add up.  If you
start at A-27.5Hz and double the frequency seven times, you will get a
different frequency (3520Hz) from the one you get if you go up by fifths (A-E-B-
F#-...-G-D-A) using a 3/2 ratio (3568Hz).  This was one of Pythagorus' dirty
little secrets.  A temperament is a fudging of ratios to deal with that
difference.

--Tom "married to a piano tuner" Kysilko

Quoting "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Antedating of "Musicologist"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 06:04 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to
> > refer to
> > the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best
> > of my
> > knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is
> > used in
> > music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.
>
> this is exactly backwards.  the musicological term is "temperament",
> and "temper" refers only to an emotional state.
>
> randel's New Harvard Dictionary of Music has an entry for "temperament"
> and doesn't mention "temper".  meanwhile, isacoff's 2002 book about
> selecting the tones of a musical scale is entitled Temperament.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 02:33:41 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:33:41 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.213341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
of hunkering down in a bunker.

>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>investigation is a delicate matter.


Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
really a straightforward matter.
If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).

   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
the semester.

   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
"phone was off the hook."

   There are loads of examples.

Gerald Cohen


At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Seán Fitzpatrick wrote:
>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>
>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>>(emphasis added)
>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>wave of popular disgust.
>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>two.
>Seán Fitzpatrick


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct 11 05:10:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:10:57 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.011057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the telephone sense.

M-W strangely has 1952.
OED has 1956 for the telephone sense, although they have the 1908 Sears
catalogue with an asterisk.

Using Ancestry.com, from the Helena(MT.) Independent, September 30, 1930,
p.5(I think), col. 6-7(An Ad):

     Business houses should make sure they have adequate representation in
the yellow pages, the classified section, which is a complete Buyer' Guide.

I didn't go back any farther on ancestry.  Too tired.  May do more later.
The term was commonly found almost every year from 1952 back to the early
40's.
SC


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 13:38:38 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:38:38 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.083838.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sending this to the American Name Society as well as to ads-l. ---

    George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
raises the question" Where did this name come from?

    I'd guess: from French "jaser" (= chatter). So "Jazzer" (as a
name) would originally have been "Chatterer/Chatterbox."

    Is there any scholarly literature to confirm or refute this suggestion?

Gerald Cohen
P.S. to ANS: Thanks for the helpful replies on "Testaverde."



>Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:24:09 -0400
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>Subject:      jazzer, 1896
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as
>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.
>
>Quickly consulting some indexes to the names in the late 19th
>C/early 20th C U. S. censuses, I find that the name Jazzer or Jasser
>appeared in Alabama in 1870 and in New York in 1900.  In 1910, in
>the NYC section of the census, there were 6 Jassers and 1 Jazzer.
>The name did not show up in Massachusetts census indexes.  These
>indexes are to the names of the heads of households listed in the
>notebooks the census-takers carried about.  Nearly all of the
>notebooks from the 1890 census were destroyed in a fire very many
>years ago, and the notebooks from the 1870, 1880, 1900 & 1910
>censues for some of the states have not yet been indexed.  It's
>obviously a very uncommon name, but a few people carried it in this
>country before 1896.
>RLIN shows no book by a Jazzer, but a dozen or so by Jasser, most in
>German, but it seems also possiible as an Arab name.
>
>So perhaps the contriver of this joke, not wanting to use the usual
>names for his interlocutors, such as He & She, or Pat & Mike, &c.,
>used a couple of names he had somewhere come upon and remembered as
>inherently comical.
>
>If so, then it saves us the problem of contriving a history of the
>word "Jazz" that would account for its giving rise in 1896 in
>Massachusetts to a nickname apparently meaning "One who jazzes".
>Which would be a blessing.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:12:09 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:12:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
In-Reply-To: <005401c38fb6$0ee1ba40$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.111209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:10 AM -0400 10/11/03, Sam Clements wrote:
>In the telephone sense.
>
>M-W strangely has 1952.
>OED has 1956 for the telephone sense, although they have the 1908 Sears
>catalogue with an asterisk.
>
>Using Ancestry.com, from the Helena(MT.) Independent, September 30, 1930,
>p.5(I think), col. 6-7(An Ad):
>
>      Business houses should make sure they have adequate representation in
>the yellow pages, the classified section, which is a complete Buyer' Guide.
>
>I didn't go back any farther on ancestry.  Too tired.  May do more later.
>The term was commonly found almost every year from 1952 back to the early
>40's.
>SC

This reminds me of another claim for local primacy (in addition to
pizza and hamburger, both sadly debunked, and frisbee, which remains
open):  I've heard it claimed that New Haven is the home of the first
phone book (not yellow pages), called "The Book of Names".  When I
first came here in '81, they were still calling the local phone book
The Book of Names, but now it's just called the Greater New Haven
Directory.

Larry


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 19:36:46 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:36:46 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.143646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To ads-l and ans-l:

In the 1896 published joke, the two speakers are Jazzer and Gozlin.
Jazzer, if literally "Chatterbox," would be an appropriate name for
someone engaged in light-hearted banter.
   Meanwhile, the name Gozlin closely resembles "gosling" (= a young
goose; a foolish or callow person), even though the name reportedly
derives from the French personal name Goscelin "just." So for the
1896 joke-writer, apparently the two participants were 'Chatterbox'
and 'Young Goose/Foolish or Callow Person.'

   Again, appropriate names for a humorous item.

Gerald Cohen

P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name on the order of "Jones."
Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous item, almost
certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks of the
mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik unearthed and which
possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the word "jinx."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 17:49:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:49:47 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.134947.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here's a trademark from some company in New Haven, CT.


Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL YELLOW PAGES

Goods and Services  IC 016. US 038. G & S: TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES. FIRST USE:
19831118. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19831118
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73460926
Filing Date January 16, 1984
Supplemental Register Date  March 21, 1985
Registration Number 1352259
Registration Date   July 30, 1985
Owner   (REGISTRANT) SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND TELEPHONE COMPANY, THE CORPORATION
CONNECTICUT 227 CHURCH STREET NEW HAVEN CONNECTICUT 06506
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  NED W. BRANTHOVER
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    SUPPLEMENTAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 15:30:20 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:30:20 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Antedating=20of=20"yellow?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20pages"=20(1930)?=
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.113020.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Per "rhdonnelley.com", the website of the Reuben H. Donnelley Corporation, a
large directory publsher, Mr. Donnelley published the first classified
directory in Chicago in 1881. It is unclear from their site whether it was on yellow
paper or was called the "yellow pages." Perhaps someone should ask them what
their corporate archives reveal.



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:19:52 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:19:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bbadcd6d04ed@[130.132.231.241]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.111952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>This reminds me of another claim for local primacy (in addition to
>pizza and hamburger, both sadly debunked, and frisbee, which remains
>open):  I've heard it claimed that New Haven is the home of the first
>phone book (not yellow pages), called "The Book of Names".  When I
>first came here in '81, they were still calling the local phone book
>The Book of Names, but now it's just called the Greater New Haven
>Directory.
>

I have a vague recollection the Alexander Graham Bell museum in
Baddeck, Nova Scotia, run by the Canadian National Park Service, has
some piece or another supporting this claim, perhaps a copy of said
phone book. I could be vaguer if I tried, I suppose.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 19:09:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:13 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.140913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is to both ads-l and ans-l. --

   In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.

    One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

    So, if humorous French names were possible on this side of the Atlantic,
it's not impossible that someone received the moniker "Chatterbox"
("Jaseur") by  a French speaker, and non-French-speakers altered it
slightly to "Jazzer."

Gerald Cohen


>Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:00:05 -0400
>From: Marc Picard <picard at vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
>To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>I'm sending this to the American Name Society as well as to ads-l. ---
>>
>>     George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
>>raises the question" Where did this name come from?
>>
>>     I'd guess: from French "jaser" (= chatter). So "Jazzer" (as a
>>name) would originally have been "Chatterer/Chatterbox."
>>
>>     Is there any scholarly literature to confirm or refute this suggestion?
>>
>>
>If the name came from French, the origin would have to be jaseur
>'chatterbox, gossip'. However, Jaseur is not a French surname so it
>can't be the origin of Jazzer. In fact, Jazzer is probably not a
>real surname either, or else it was the nonce adaptation of the
>Arabic name Jazzar.
>
>Marc Picard
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:41:12 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:41:12 -0500
Subject: Bruce Kraig's planned "hot dog" book--(clarification)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.104112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I've recently been in touch with Bruce Kraig concerning our mutual
interest in hot dogs (study, not eating; I ate a hot dog only once in
my life, and it made me sick.)
    An advertisement for Kraig's book makes a gaffe: implying that
Kraig believes in the thoroughly discredited Polo Grounds/TAD/Harry
Stevens origin of the term.
The advertisement also gives the incorrect impression that the
publication of the book is imminent. Actually, the publication date
is uncertain.
    Advertisers evidently march to a different drummer than scholars.
With eyebrows being raised in several private e-mails, I asked Kraig
for permission (granted) to clarify the matter to ads-l.
    Below my signoff is the entry for Kraig's book as I will present
it in a "hot dog" bibliography  (working paper) to appear within a
few months. It's part of a planned book on "hot dog" which will list
Barry Popik, David Shulman and me as its authors, although I assume
sole responsibility for any errors or other shortcomings it may
contain.

Gerald Cohen
P.S. Kraig also clarified to me that he gives all due credit to Barry
Popik for Barry's important work on "hot dog."


[from: draft of "A Compiled Bibliography on "Hot Dog."]:

Kraig, Bruce (forthcoming; date of publication still uncertain). Man
Bites Dog. Verve Press. -- An advertisement for the book
incorrectly gives the impression that Kraig supports the Polo
Grounds/TAD/Harry Stevens origin of hot dog. He does not. The book,
when it appears, will be a commentary on the social and cultural
history of hot dogs, hot dog stands, and related themes--rather than
a comprehensive history of the hot dog. A good dose of hot-dog
history will be included though. My thanks to Bruce Kraig for this
clarification.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 11 18:03:49 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:03:49 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100bbadb4adf2dd@[131.151.65.140]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.140349.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A   George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
>raises the question" Where did this name come from?

>You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
>>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
>>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as
>>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
>>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
>>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.

I reviewed some jokes taken from the "Roxbury Gazette". Character names
included:

Jazzer & Gozlin [sic] (1896) [George Thompson's joke]
Grazlin (1896)
Dashem & Kasham (1896)
Bablow & Gadwin (1899)
Dozber & Jazlin (1895)
Bloozin & Gablow (1898)
Tablow & Scadman (1898)

and even

Mrs. Xrays & Mrs. Raysex

etc., etc.

On another note, jokes in the "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" in the same period
included our old friend Jinks quite often, including "Jinks", "Jinx", "Jinx
and Wickwire", "Jinks and Binks", "Jinks and Blinks", "Jinks and Winks",
"Mr. and Mrs. Jinks", "Rev. Mr. Jinks", "Jinks and Filkins", "I. Jinks"
[i.e., "high jinks" probably], etc., etc. The names do not seem to be
correlated with material in the jokes; the names are essentially arbitrary
in most cases IMHO, perhaps chosen for peculiar sounds. "Jinks" looks to be
one of the most popular, and I take it to be an "everyman" name like
"Jones", perhaps with some humorous freight from "highjinks".

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 11 22:00:57 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:00:57 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
In-Reply-To: <p04310105bbae08f02ff5@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.180057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name on the order of "Jones."
>Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous item, almost
>certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks of the
>mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik unearthed and which
>possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the word "jinx."

I disagree, as I've said here before: in the poem in question (humorous
doggerel) "Jinks" refers not to a printer's devil but to some peripheral
nonentity or unspecified person, as "Jinks" (or "Jones") often does. This
poem was just one earlier example of light use of the arbitrary name
"Jinks" IMHO. I don't think that the occurrence of the name Jinks in a
single obscure poem which also included a printer's devil (= printer's
errand-boy, essentially) was likely to engender a general popular
association of the name Jinks with any sort of devil or errand-boy or
anything else.

Here is Ware (1909) defining the colloquialism "Jinks the Barber",
supposedly dating from 1850: "Secret informant. Idea suggested by the
general barber being such a gossiper. Jinks is a familiar name for an
easy-going man." I can't vouch for the analysis, but I infer that the name
Jinks was probably not globally -- or very widely -- associated either with
printing or with anything diabolical or inauspicious, either in 1850 or in
1909.

Furthermore, of a dozen or more "Jinks et al." jokes in the "Eagle" (on
line), I see no tendency for the character named Jinks to be in any
particular role; nor do I see other characters with names which would
connote anything ominous.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 23:48:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:48:04 -0400
Subject: Filipino cuisine (1929); Horse Opera (1923); Ivy League (1935)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.194804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FILIPINO CUISINE

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES now appears to be up to July 1938.
   There are some "Oscar" citations, but no explanation.
   I've been searching for Pacific cuisine (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Filipino, Vietnamese).  It'll get a lot better in the next 30 years...Where is my "Zombie"?  (A Hawaiian/San Francisco drink, made popular at the 1939 New York World's Fair.)


      LEE SIDE o'L.A.
       Lee Shippey.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1929.                   p. A4 (1 page) :
   The menu included pansit, sarciadong manoks, trotillang hipon, adobong baboy, asadang baboy, all names which no Spaniard or Mexican could be expected to translate.  They were the Filipino names for noodles, Filipino style; spring chicken with sauce, shrimp omelet, pork with seasoned sauce and pork chops, Filipino style.  Rice was served instead of bread or tortillas, the latter being little known in the Philippines.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HORSE OPERA

   OED has 1927 for "horse opera," meaning "western" motion picture.  Someone swiped the RHHDAS H-O here at NYU, and I hope it wasn't that "best lexicographer" guy.


      FLASHES
       Grace Kingsley.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 6, 1923.                   p. II11 (1 page):
      Colin Campbell is about to start work on "The Grail," a new Fox feature, which promises to rival "The Spoilers," which Campbell made some sever years ago, and which is again to be done by Hampton.
   "'The Grail' is a western story," explained Mr. Campbell, the other day, "but it isn't a 'horse opera.'  It is a very big, human story."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IVY LEAGUE

   Another 1935 citation.


      Bill Henry Says
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 11, 1935.                   p. 7 (1 page):
      DETERMINED to have at least one big track meet in the East in which some rude California college won't gallop away with the championship the newly organized and appropriately named Ivy League holds a matinee on the sacred sward of Princeton today.  Historic institutions represented are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Pennsylvania, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth, which are already organized in basketball and baseball.


(OT:  Yankees win.  I hope it's not too late to wish them "good luck.")


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 00:00:36 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:00:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.200036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/11/2003 1:49:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik writes:

> Here's a trademark from some company in New Haven, CT.
>
>
> Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL YELLOW PAGES
>

Lest anyone think "yellow pages" is trademarked, note the trademark here is for "original yellow pages." "Yellow pages" itself is not a registered trademark, having become generic long ago. By the way, "some company in Connecticut" happens to be the local phone company there.

Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 01:04:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:04:41 -0400
Subject: Corn Chips (1933) & Tamale ("Frito") Pie (1933)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.210441.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Texas and Frito-Lay claim "corn chips," from 1932.
   There are many LOS ANGELES TIMES citations, starting with 1933..."Tamale pie" is in the database here from 1922, but the following appears to be "Frito pie"..."Corn chips" may or may not have come from Los Angeles, but it has the best dips.


      Home Service Bureau
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 31, 1933.                   p. A7 (1 page):
             _SOMETHING NEW_
      Now we have a brand-new delightful cracker-like food that tastes like more.  It is Cumming's corn chips, to be used as a base for hors d'oeuvres or as an accompaniment for salads, sandwiches, soups and beverages.  Corn chips are made from choice corn and popcorn, and are cooked by a special process.  Many interested homemakers have semt in recipes suggesting several unique ways to use this new product.  They range from tamale pie to canapes, but the real demand comes from those desiring a tasty tidbit or an added touch to any favorite dish.

      Home Service Bureau
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 7, 1933.                   p. A5 (1 page)

      Display Ad 17 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 7, 1933.                   p. A2 (1 page):
Cummings Corn Chips
Mighty good to serve with beer, caviar or cheese...(illegible--ed.)...25c

      Display Ad 25 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 9, 1933.                   p. A4 (1 page)

      REQUESTED RECIPES
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 10, 1933.                   p. A7 (1 page):
          _CUMMINGS TAMALE PIE_
      Five ounces corn chips, 1 1/2 pounds ground round steak, one sliced onion, two buttons garlic (finely chopped,) four tablespoonfuls oil, one tablespoonful chili powder, one can tomato puree, one-half cupful seeded ripe olives, salt and pepper to taste.
      Method:  Brown meat, onion, garlic and chili powder in oil, adding enough water to throroughly brown and keep from burning.  Then add tomatoes and cook slowly until meat is tender and mixture has thickened.  Last add the olives.
      Grind corn chips in food chopper or meat grinder until finely crumbled.  Butter the bottom and sides of a casserole or baking dish and line with crumb mixture, packing closely to make a firm crust.
      Pour a layer of the chili meat mixture on the layer of corn chips and alternate layers.  Top baking dish with corn chips and sprinkle with grated cheese.  Place casserole in oven and bake rather slowly for about thirty minutes.  Serve piping hot as soon as removed from oven.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 12 02:21:31 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:21:31 -0400
Subject: MY final antedating of "yellow pages" (1927)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.222131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was close with my 1930 cite, but just too tired to do the final work.
It's 1927.

>From the Decatur(IL.) Daily Review, August 5, 1927, p. 8, col. 3-5 :

[Again, an ad for the telephone company.]

     The re-arrangement of listings in the New Classified Business Directory
makes it easier for you to quickly find the buying information you want.
      Just turn to the first two yellow pages in the middle of your
directory for full information  as to how the Classified Business Section
has been re-arranged and how to use this new Buyer's Guide.

(Illinois Bell)

*Further cites from 1929 would indicate that this was a new concept that Ma
Bell was starting in 6000 cities across the US.

There were no other ancestry hits back as far as 1912.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 02:32:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:32:43 -0400
Subject: MY final antedating of "yellow pages" (1927)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.223243.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From ProQuest.


      Front Page 6 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 24, 1909.                   p. 1 (1 page) :
   Information of general interest to the public can be had by consulting Information Section, "Yellow Pages," in new Telephone Directory.--Adv.


      Display Ad 2 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 3, 1925.                   p. 3 (1 page):
   ...the yellow pages of the Telephone Book. (...)
THE CHESAPEAKE AND POTOMAC
TELEPHONE COMPANY


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 02:52:04 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:52:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Screwball Comedy"
In-Reply-To: <4F14AEE5.6F4A12A2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.225204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

screwball comedy (OED 1938)

1937 _Wash. Post_ 22 Mar. 8_  "THAT MAN'S HERE AGAIN," (Warner Brothers).
Hugh Herbert turns in another screwball comedy of his own familiar type.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:05:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:05:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Supermarket"
In-Reply-To: <200310120252.h9C2q6u10643@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.230509.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

supermarket (OED 1933)

1931 _L.A. Times_ 15 Nov. D3  The Norwood supermarket, southeast corner of
Hollywood Boulevard and Normandie avenue, was opened yesterday.  It is
owned by A. C. Jones, formerly president of the Piggly-Wiggly stores.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct 12 03:10:42 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:10:42 -0400
Subject: Filipino cuisine (1929); Horse Opera (1923); Ivy League (1935)
In-Reply-To: <7B1CA2C0.1C3135AA.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.231042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    The menu included pansit, sarciadong manoks, trotillang hipon, adobong
> baboy, asadang baboy, all names which no Spaniard or Mexican could be
> expected to translate.  They were the Filipino names for noodles,
> Filipino style; spring chicken with sauce, shrimp omelet, pork with
> seasoned sauce and pork chops, Filipino style.

"Sarciadong" looks like "salciado", something like "salsa", likely from
Spanish although I don't know the exact formal Spanish equivalent.
"Trotillang" (misspelled, I think) = Spanish "tortilla" = "omelet".
"Adobong" = Spanish "adobo" = "marinade" or so. "Asadang" = Spanish "asada"
= "roast". So most of these terms are 'half Spanish' ... still I guess
they're untranslatable without knowing the native-Philippine parts maybe.
[Are there other Spanish adoptions in there? In my ignorance of Spanish and
Tagalog both, I can't be sure.]

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct 12 03:40:04 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:40:04 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104bbadff04db1c@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.234004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>   In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
>it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
>Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
>not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.
>
>    One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
>Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
>listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
>humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
>there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

There is the name Jasserand (with variants).

As for Beaugenou, I would naively consider the possibility of alteration
from something like Bougnou or Bougeniere ... perhaps an illiterate
immigrant, with illegible handwritten documents from the boonies, needed to
be processed quickly at the port of entry ....

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:48:20 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:48:20 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Seven Sisters"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031011233256.04cd6880@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.234820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seven Sisters (OED, 6., 1962)

1958 _N.Y. Times_ 18 May 1  One such ["early-decision"] plan was announced
earlier this year by the so-called "seven sisters" -- Barnard, Bryn Mawr, Mount
Holyoke, Radcliffe, Smith, Vassar and Wellesley Colleges.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:55:17 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:55:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Ivy Leaguer"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310112344320.12937-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.235517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ivy Leaguer (OED 1943)

1937 _L.A. Times_ 26 June A13  Perhaps we'll be able to persuade those Ivy
Leaguers of the East to assemble a team representing their section one of
these days.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:57:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:57:58 -0400
Subject: Correction of "Seven Sisters"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310112344320.12937-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.235758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my antedating of "Seven Sisters" I gave the wrong page number; it
should have been page 80.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 06:03:49 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:03:49 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "Ivy Leaguer"
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.020349.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/11/2003 11:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


>
>
> Ivy Leaguer (OED 1943)
>
> 1937 _L.A. Times_ 26 June A13  Perhaps we'll be able to persuade those Ivy
> Leaguers of the East to assemble a team representing their section one of
> these days.
>
>

   22 November 1935, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.9,
col. 2:
   NEW YORK, Nov. 22 (AP).--Not without a wistful wonder where the lightning
will strike next, the football guesser comes out of the weekly huddle with the
following results.
   Princeton-Dartmouth:  A couple of undefeated and untied "ivy leaguers" get
together.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 06:56:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:56:18 EDT
Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole"  (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.025618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COWBOY UP--The rallying cry of the Boston Red Sox.  It's from the rodeo.

MASSHOLE--Used by Yankee fans to describe Red Sox fans (from Massachusetts).
Not in the HDAS.  Google Groups has hits as far back as 1985 and 1986.  See
the multiple entries in the Urban Dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Masshole


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 08:35:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:35:10 EDT
Subject: Basebrawl (1948)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.043510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Basebrawl" is on the cover of Sunday's NEW YORK POST.  The term refers to
those times when you go to a baseball game and a hockey game breaks out.
   Not in Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY, but it should be.  About 600
Google hits.


http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0040150/
BASE BRAWL (1948)
Genre: Animation/Comedy/Short/Family
Runtime: 8 min.


   30 May 1974, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. C-7, col. 1:
_Another "Basebrawl" game?_
    _Martin Dreads_
    _"Beer Night"_
    ARLINGTON, Tex. (AP)--Texas Ranger Manager Billy Martin isn't looking
forward to 10-cent beer night and bat night in Cleveland next week.
    Not after last night's "basebrawl" in which he was decked twice during an
eighth inning free-swinging flurry as Texas downed the Indians 3-0 on Jackie
Brown's three-hitter.


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 16:32:01 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:32:01 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20MY=20final=20anteda?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ting=20of=20"yellow=20pages"=20(1927)?=
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.123201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Per "rhdonnelley.com", the website of the Reuben H. Donnelley Corporation, a
large directory publisher, Mr. Donnelley published the first classified
directory in Chicago in 1881. It is unclear from their site whether it was on yellow
paper or was called the "yellow pages." Perhaps someone should ask them what
their corporate archives reveal.



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 17:05:16 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:05:16 EDT
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.130516.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:13 -0500, Gerald Cohen
<gcohen at UMR.EDU> writes:

>     In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
>  it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
>  Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
>  not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.
>
>      One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
>  Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
>  listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
>  humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
>  there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

Another possibility is that M. Beaugenou was a Native American, or perhaps a
meti, who really did have the Native American name "Beautiful Knee".  There
was a well-known contemporary of his, an Iroquois (Seneca) religious figure
named "Handsome Lake" (1735-1815),  so I suppose "Beautiful Knee" is plausible.

And don't forget a man named "Swollen Foot", better remembered as Oedipus
Rex.  ("oedi" cognate to "(o)edema", and "pus" as in "octopus").

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 17:25:10 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:25:10 EDT
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.132510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:41:22 -0400, Seán Fitzpatrick
<grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> quoted from the LA Weekly

"By bunkering down with the  discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis, they
wound up defending an indefensible status quo ..."

The more I think about this one, the more I feel this is more than a
confusion between the phonetically similar "hunker down" and "bunker".  "Hunker
(down)" according to MWCD11 is "to settle in or dig in for a sustained period";
however "bunker" (to me at least) suggests "bunker mentality".  Hence if they
merely "hunkered down" then they and Mr. Davis merely decided to wait out the
current hoopla.  To "bunker down" implies that as well as merely waiting things
out, they also adopted an inflexible, reactionary, misanthropic, think up your
own adjective mental attitude.

Without even thinking of Mr. Davis (about whom I do not wish to express an
opinion at the moment), I can come up with a list of a number of politicians who
have "bunkered down".  It's a useful metaphor, and I hereby nominate it for
WOTY (I know.  Fat chance.  But I still like it).

My daughter came up with what I think qualifies as a syntactic blend.
Discussing freeloaders at a soup kitchen, she said that "they were taking abuse of
[the proprietor of the kitchen]."  In this case she was clearly conflating
"taking advantage of" and "abusing".  Apparently she had started to say "taking
advantage" but, just an instant too late, decided that phrase was not forceful
enough and she wished to state that these people were abusing the time and
material of the people running the kitchen.

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 19:59:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:59:38 EDT
Subject: Elex; National Palestine Radio (NPR)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.155938.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NATIONAL PALESTINE RADIO (NPR)--The NEW YORK POST had an opinion piece about
the (alleged) anti-Jewish bias at National Public Radio.  A letter to the
editor in today's (Sunday's) newspaper mentions "National Palestine Radio."
   This has been around Google Groups since at least January 1992.
NATIONAL PALESTINIAN RADIO--176 Google hits
NATIONAL PALESTINE RADIO--142 Google hits
   For a comparison, see Andrew Sullivan's interpretation of "BBC."

ELEX--The NEW YORK POST also uses the word "elex" in a headline, meaning
"elections."  I haven't seen this often.  "Elex" is not in the OED.  A trademark
search shows that "elex" most often means "electronics."


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Oct 12 20:21:59 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:21:59 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer" -- need for studies on humorous French names
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.152159.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 1:31 PM -0400 10/12/03, Marc Picard wrote:
>>
>I don't understand why you insist on trying to find a French origin
>for jazzer since the word is part of American slang since way back
>when. And it has nothing to do with chattering or gossiping.
>

"Way back when" is 1912 or 1913. (There's an 1831 attestation
"jazzing," written by Lord Palmerston about the French diplomat
Talleyrand, where the term does refer to chattering and almost
certainly is taken directly from French: "I am writing in the
Conference, Matusevic copying out a note for our signature, old
Talley[rand] jazzing and telling stories to Lieven and Esterhazy and
Wessenberg."

   This 1831 attestation is totally isolated and best set aside when
trying to determine the origin of American "jazz.")

   An April 5, 1913 article in the San Francisco Bulletin (newspaper)
refers to "jazz" as a word which just entered the language. Now we
know there was at least some limited used of the term a year earlier.
But that's it. Setting aside the isolated British 1831 attestation,
that's the extent of the early attestations.

    So, when George Thompson spots an 1896 name "Jazzer" (with some
earlier attestations as a name), this "Jazzer" cannot be explained as
deriving from slang "jazz." There are no attestations of slang "jazz"
at this early time.

   This is the motivation for looking elsewhere for the origin of the name, and
French "jaseur" is too promising to be set aside without a close look.
What we really need here is a detailed study of humorous French names
in the U.S. Do any such studies exist? Might "Jazzer" have been a
humorous French name attached to African-Americans? What about
humorous names within the Cajun community? I know for sure that at
least some existed.

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 23:21:06 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:21:06 EDT
Subject: Gaucho, Quien sabe, Portena. Camote, Pisco, Canjica, Feojao,
 Compadre (1825)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.192106.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Actually, I'm not going to all of South America.  Just Guyana, French
Guiana, Suriname, and then Trinidad.
   Two important books.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRAVELS IN SOUTH AMERICA,
DURING THE YEARS 1819-20-21;
CONTAINING AN ACCOUINT OF THE PRESENT STATE OF
BRAZIL, BUENOS AYRES, AND CHILE
by Alexander Caldcleugh
in two volumes
London: John Murray
1825

   OED has ten citations from this book.  We'll look at it in the rare chance
that something was missed.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 51:  The flour prepared from this root, termed _farinha de pao_. is left
untoucvhed by every description of insect, in itself no small recommendation,
and forms the food of the lower classes.
(OED has 1726, then 1863 for "farinha"--ed.)

Pg. 131:  From 1810, when Velasco was deposed, until 1816, the yerba, or tea
tree, came down in the...(Pg. 132 not copied--ed.)
(OED has 1818, then 1839 for "yerba"--ed.)

Pg. 140:  The houses are generally covered with a flat roof, called _azotea_,
and have no upper stories.
(OED has 1824, then 1844 for "azotea"--ed.)

Pg. 144:  It must be understood that these remarks are confined to the city
and its immediate neighbourhood; for at a short distance, the _Gauchos_, or
country people, seem perfectly free from disease of any kind.
(OED has 1825 for "Gaucho," citing a journal of 1824.  This is 1825, from
1819-1821--ed.)

Pg. 164:  ...tity of the leaves into a gourd, or cup, in which is placed a
reed, or silver tube, called bombilla; hot water is then poured on it, and the
infusion is sucked through the tube.
(OED has 1866 for "bombilla"--ed.)

Pg. 164:  All the yerba now used in the provinces and in Chile, is the
_palo_, or Portuguese, which, being half made up of stalks, yileds no flavour
whatever.
(FWIW.   OED has 1838 for "palo blanco" and 1854 for "palo verde"--ed.)

Og, 170:  The female part of the family is alone seen, or sometimes the
gentleman of the house, but generally both the fathers and brothers are either
forming part of another _tertulia_, or talking politics in the coffee-house.
(OED has 1785, then 1828 for "tertulia"--ed.)

Pg. 172:  The mode of _lassooing_ horses with a long (Pg. 173--ed.) thong and
noose has been often described; it is performed with surprising dexterity.
(OED has 1807 for "lasso" and 1838 for "lassooing"--ed.)

Pg. 238:  The alforges, (Pg. 239--ed.) or saddle bags, were fitted with an
abundance of yerba, Chinese tea, a little sugar, and some biscuits.  A very
large parcel of segars was put in for the demands of the guide, Chiclana, and the
postboys.  A pair of _chifles_, or large horns, full of brandy, which my guide
soon informed me were excessively leaky, were added to the rest.
(OED has "alforge" from 1611.  OED does not have "chifles," which is also the
name of s chips company--ed.)

Pg. 248:  ...fortunately, we obtained some milk for breakfast, and afterwards
a little boiled beef (asado) and broth.

Pg. 249:  Every one is fond of answering in this country, _Quien sabe_,
pleading ignorance to the simplest questions.
(OED has 1836 for "Quien sabe"--ed.)

Pg. 260:  Man particularly civil:--sat down at able with him and his family
and ate some caldo and asado.

Pg. 273:  The Spanish _refran_ came continually to my recollection, _largo
rezo, poca comida_, and I dreaded the appearance of a solitary dish.  I most
fortunately was mistaken; for there was an excellent supper of broiled beef,
broth and boiled maize, called _omita_.

Pg. 286:  The public walk, or _alameda_, is well laid out, and commands a
majestic view of the mountains.
(OED has 1797, 1807, 1843, and 1845 for "alameda"--ed.)

Pg. 249:  The grape has been always cultivated with success, but the wine is
generally of indifferent quality.  That kind which is made near Conception,
and called _vino de penco_, is considered the best;--it approaches more nearly
to Malaga than to any other wine known in Europe.  The fig and the olive are of
superior flavor and most abundant; peaches, melons, water-melons, and
strawberries, are among the variety of fruits which abound.  From a large palm a kind
of honey is produced be boring to the heart of the tree called _miel de
palma_; it is dark coloured, and resembles molasses and water.

Pg. 361:  They mix with it pumpkins and Indian corn, with large quantities of
_aji_, or Chilian pepper, together with some of the _mani_ (arachis
hypogaea), which is considered highly stimulating.
(OED has "mani" from 1604.  "Aji"?--ed.)

Pg. 371:  The _portenas_ (ladies of Buenos Ayres) living in St. Jago, mix
little with those of Chile, and even in a ball-room stand together and eye the
others distainfully.
(OED has 1884 for "Porteno"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 62:  The ladies, when concealed in this dress, are termed _tapadas_, and
the appearance of so many in the streets is not a little extraordinary.
("Tapada" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 74:  The mixture of whites and Indians has now become less common, and
the progeny of the negro and Indian, called _chino_, is seldom met with.
("Chino" is not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 82:  The _camotes_, or sweet potatoes, grow as large as in Rio de
Janeiro, and seemed to be held in great estimation in Chile;...
(OED has 1842 for "camote"--ed.)

Pg. 83:  ...but one fruit, the _chirimoya_, is of such admirable taste that
it deserves a more particular description.  The term is qquichua (sic), and is
derived from _chiri_ cold, and _muhu_ seed, or cold seeded, an epithet to
which it is fully entitled.
(OED has 1760-1772, then 1858 for "cherimoya"--ed.)

Pg. 91:  At Pisco, famous for its brandy manufacture;...
(OED has 1849 for "pisco"--ed.)

Pg. 103:  My guide was now occupied in keeping the people together and
collecting more provisions for the journey,--chicha, charque or dried meat, fowls,
pork and bread, in sufficiency for fourteen days, travellers often being shut
up for that time in a casucha; but above all the guide was careful to provide a
(Pg. 104--ed.) large quantity of _aji_* or Chile pepper, put into small
bottle gourds, after being reduced to powder between two stones, and onions and
garlick in profusion.  The lower class in Chile are very partial to all these
vegetables, and to _mani_ (the flour of the underground bean, arachis hypogea),
which they consider to be of a stimulating nature, as I have mentioned before.
*This word is considered in the West Indies of Haytian origin.
(OED has 1760-1772, then 1845 for "charqui."  OED does not have
"casucha"--ed.)

Pg, 126:  The favourite dish, _carne con cuero_, was on the table.  This
roast beef is so expensive, on account of a part of the hide being enveloped round
it while dressing, that it is only met with at the first tables.

Pg. 138:  The maize, which was of two sorts, yellow and white, was just
housed.  it forms the chief article of subsistence all over the province of
Cordova, which i Had now entered.  They make from it a dish called _maizamora_,* by
simply bruising it with a little water, by which it is deprived of the husks,
and then by long continued boiling.
*The canjica of the Bazilians.
("Canjica" is not in the OED.  There are 7,160 Google hits--ed.)

Pg. 142:  The algoraba, which is, I believe, an acacia, is a tree of great
value, particularly the _algaroba blanca_.  The pods are made by fermentation
into a kind of chicha or drink, and it serves as well to feed cattle when the
maize crop is deficient.
(OED has 1845 for "algarroba"--ed.)

Pg. 184:  ..._fazenda, or farm...
(A first citation in OED.  Yes, they actually got one--ed.)

Pg. 185:  The variety called the Canjam* is mostly in use for making sugar,
which is almost entirely clayed.  The clay is obtained by washing the
decomposed granite which every where abounds.  The other variety, called _criolho_, is
mostly used for making spirits; it is more juicy and less sweet than the
former.
*Cayenne.
(OED does not have either "Canjam: or "criolho"--ed.)

Pg. 190:  ...and the _plica_ of vegetation on each side was such, that it was
impossible to turn aside.
(OED has 1866 for this meaning of "plica"--ed.)

Pg. 191:  It consisted of two or three cakes of coarse brown sugar, called
rapadoeira, and a little _cachasse_, or common spirit.
(OED has 1846 for "rapadura."  OED does not have "cachasse"--ed.)

Pg. 199:  In fact, there is little or nothing to be got in these villages;
the mule drivers live on feijoes or beans and pork, which they carry with them,
(Pg. 200--ed.) and the inhabitants have little more than is sufficient for
their own consumption.
(OED has 1857 for "feijao"--ed.)

Pg. 200:  Their huts are formed or mud, with a covering of broad leaves; the
better description have a ceiling formed of split canes, called _taquarra_.
("Taquarra" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 239:  It consisted of meat, (_charqueado_, jerked,) fried with greens; a
large dish of _ungu_ (boiled Indian corn flour); a dish of salted pork
(_lombo_) broiled; a plate of rice; _canjica_ (boiled Indian corn without the husk);
and a dish called fuba, which is Indian corn (Pg. 240--ed.) flour stirred up
with hot water.  Marmalade and Figueras wine completed the repast.
("Lombo," "canjica," "fuba," and "figueras" are all not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 269:  He plants mandioca, rice and feijoes (beans).  He has tried wheat,
but found that it was always destroyed by ferrugem (smut).

Pg. 280:  There were only two decent looking houses in the place, one of them
of course belonged to the _vigario_, and I was confirmed in the idea by
seeing some white ladies in the balconies, nieces or comadres,* it is to be
presumed.
   *The term _comadre_ is applied to the female by those who stand sponsois
with her; she is _madrinha_ or godmother to the infant, and _comadre_ to them.
Ever after great intimacy exists between the _compadres_ and _comadres_; they
become related in the eye of the church, and a marriage could not be
solemnized between them without much difficulty.
(The revised OED has 1971 for "madrina"?  OED has 1834 for "compadre."  OED
has no entry for "comadre"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NOTES ON COLUMBIA,
TAKEN IN THE YEARS 1822-3,
WITH AN ITNERARY OF THE ROUTE FROM CARACAS TO BOTOTA
By An Officer of the United States' Army (Richard Bache--ed.)
Philadelphia: H. C. Carey & I. Lea
1827

Pg. 80:  Some taste and much ingenuity are discoverable in the pavements,
particularly in those before the entrances of public buildings, and along the
passages leading to the _patios_, or court yards, of some private houses.
(OED has 1828 for "patio"--ed.)

Pg. 86:  ...a fruit called by the English sour-sop, haddocks, pomegranates,
alligator-pears, the delicious _chilimoyas_, grapes, figs, apples, peaches,
plums, apricots, &c., water and musk-melons, tamarinds, guavas, pineapples, and
many others.  The vegetables are, the potatoe, good, but small, beets,
parsnips, carrots, cabbages, fine cauliflowers, lettuce, squashes, yams, artichokes,
turnips, the sweet potatoe, and a yellow root called _apio_.  The top of the
apio is precisely, in appearance, taste, and smell, like our celery, but the
root, which is eaten boiled, is very different, having the appearance of a sweet
potatoe.
("Apio" is not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 86:  You find, also, fresh beef and pork, separated from the bone and cut
into chunks; _carne seca_, (Pg. 87--ed.) (dried beef,) cut in long strips;
this is sometimes prepared with a little salt, or is slightly smoked; and is by
no means inviting.  The mutton, though small, is excellent; some fish, but no
veal, is brought to market.  Hog's lard, called _manteca_, wrapped in plantain
leaves, is sold in great abundance, and, as well as garlic and onions, is
used excessively in cooking.
(OED does not have "carne seca."  OED has "manteca" from 1622--ed.)

Pg. 87:  You also find a mixture of mucilage and molasses,  called _papelon_,
which is much relished by the lower classes of people, and eaten by them like
cheese; fermented with water, it yields the intoxicating drink _guarapo_.
Bread, made of maize, is called _arepa_; while that formed into large disks,
eighteen inches in diameter and about a fourth of an inch thick, made from the
_manioe_ root, is called _casava_.  This is as little relished by a North
American, as the _arepa_, or corn bread, is by a European.
("Papelon" and "arepa" are not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 88:  coarse cottons, mats, straw hats, strings of beads, baskets, coffee
bags, &c., ropes, twines, pouches, harness for bat mules, and a kind of shoes
or sandals called _paragaters_, made of the fibre of the leaf of the Agave
Americana, or flowering aloe.
("Paragater" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 162:  The maize prepared in this manner is called _boyo_.  Many seem
contented with a small cake in its raw state, washed down with a glass of water,
for a breakfast.  It is, however, more frequently made into flat cakes and
fried in the favourite _manteca_, or simply baked before the fire, like our
hoe-cake.
(OED does not have "boyo"--ed.)

Pg. 187:  This consisted of a chunk of _carne seca_, (dried beef,) and bread,
washed down with a little _aguardiente_.

Pg. 215:  We heard that the President was hourly expected to arrive at
Bogota, and being desirous to witness his _entre_, we hurried on, notwithstanding
the pressing invitations of our kind hosts, to witness the _fiesta_, and arrived
at Paypa--twenty miles, at 5 P. M.--thirty-two miles.
(OED has 1844 for "fiesta"--ed.)

Pg. 258:  The plantain is the substitute for bread, it may be eaten either
raw or boiled, or fried in lard; with chocolate it forms an excellent meal.  A
vegetable called _yuca_ is also extremely cheap and nutritive; fifty pounds
cost but six and a fourth cents.  It is excellent in soup.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 13 00:02:39 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:02:39 -0500
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.190239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It just occurred to me that hash-house lingo might have been one of
the mediums which helped spread the term "hot dog." If this really
did happen, "hot dog" as a feature of hashhouse lingo would have been
short lived, ending when the term passed into general usage (as with
eggs "sunny side up.")

  Below my signoff is a relevant item I'm including in a compiled
bibliography on "hot dog."

Gerald Cohen

Irwin, Wallace 1907. Letters of a Japanese Schoolboy ('Hashimura Togo').
        1907, 1908 by P. F. Collier & Son; 1909 by Doubleday, Page & Company
        (mentioned in an ads-l message sent by Barry Popik, April 19, 2001).
        p. 95:
        'Best nourishment may be obtained for 5 cents by ordering 3
sausages        from Frankfurt Germany with slice of toast.
        'Yesterday I go as customary to this.  As customary I say,
"Give me        the same, those 3 sausages from Frankfurter."
        'And Mr. Swartz, turning to cookeryman, cry with voice:
        "Hot-dog!"
        'Therefore I must not eat them food because it is
cannibalism.  If Mr.    Swartz is not speaking Slank talk, then he
should be sent to prison for    Pure Food Laws.'


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct 13 02:09:28 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:09:28 -0400
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.220928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, with college students continuing to use the term, you probably
didn't need hash-houses(but I'll keep on searching).

>From the Washington Post(reprinted from the Harvard Lampoon), January 13,
1907. (p 7 col 6)

   Freshman---Chicken sandwich and a frankfurter and some coffee, please.
    Sophomore--Cold bird, a hot dog, and some wash.  Rush it!
    Senior--A frigid fowl, a torrid canine, and a steaming cup of luscious
beverage.
    Law Student--The party of the first part desires a sandwich of or
composed of chicken, a roll wherin is compressed a frankfurter, so called,
and a cup, jar, or receptacle filled with coffee.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?


> It just occurred to me that hash-house lingo might have been one of
> the mediums which helped spread the term "hot dog." If this really
> did happen, "hot dog" as a feature of hashhouse lingo would have been
> short lived, ending when the term passed into general usage (as with
> eggs "sunny side up.")
>
>   Below my signoff is a relevant item I'm including in a compiled
> bibliography on "hot dog."
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> Irwin, Wallace 1907. Letters of a Japanese Schoolboy ('Hashimura Togo').
>         1907, 1908 by P. F. Collier & Son; 1909 by Doubleday, Page &
Company
>         (mentioned in an ads-l message sent by Barry Popik, April 19,
2001).
>         p. 95:
>         'Best nourishment may be obtained for 5 cents by ordering 3
> sausages        from Frankfurt Germany with slice of toast.
>         'Yesterday I go as customary to this.  As customary I say,
> "Give me        the same, those 3 sausages from Frankfurter."
>         'And Mr. Swartz, turning to cookeryman, cry with voice:
>         "Hot-dog!"
>         'Therefore I must not eat them food because it is
> cannibalism.  If Mr.    Swartz is not speaking Slank talk, then he
> should be sent to prison for    Pure Food Laws.'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 06:12:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:12:16 EDT
Subject: Sunday Morning Quarterback (1931)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.021216.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's a little before Monday morning.  (See archives.)


   30 October 1931, ARCADIA TRIBUNE (Arcadia, California), pg.5, col. 4:
   But he found a Roman army there before him, with another close on his
trail.  He was licked, and he knew it.  He didn't spend any time in vain regrets.
Spartacus was never a Sunday morning quarterback.

   17 November 1931, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin), pg.4?, col. 3:
      _THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM_
   Are you one of those Saturday night and Sunday morning quarterbacks who
knows what they "should have" done to win the game?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 07:19:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:19:37 EDT
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.031937.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A new car commercial uses "TGIF."  The driver takes the car to work, and
we first see "TGIM."  Then TGIT, TGIW, and the rest follow.
   See "Thank God" in the archives.  The following is from an Ancestry.com
search...A TGI FRIDAYS just opened near me at 56th Street and Lexington, so
that's your food connection.
   Merriam-Webster doesn't give a year.  OED doesn't have anything?
   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from Columbus, Ohio!
I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.


   13 November 1941, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 19, col. 4:
_OHIO STATE'S TGIF CLUB_
_SET FOR HOMECOMING_
   By CHUCK McKENNA
   COLUMBUS, Nov. 13--I thought I'd heard of everything in the way of booster
clubs, alumni organizations and the like, but this city, home of the Ohio
State univeristy Buckeyes, and correctly called the Brooklyn of the football
world, has come up with one that tops them all.  It's the "Thank God It's Friday"
club, composed entirely of undergraduates here at State.
   This unique organization holds its weekly meeting from 5 to 6 every Friday
afternoon in a campus hangout called Ben's Tavern, that is a throwback to the
days of the Student Prince at Old Heidelberg with its huge organ in the place
of a "juke box," and the nightly singing of old favorites in the stead of
swing music.  The High Priestess and major domo of this weekly reitual is the
organist, Betty Terry, a lovely lady who is worshipped by the students of Ohio
State for the part she plays in their ceremony each Friday.
   Every member of this strange group firmly believes that if they were not
to meet each Friday preceding an Ohio State foootball (Col. 5--ed.) game evil
surely will befall State the following day.  It was my privilege to attend
their meeting last Friday, prior to the Ohio State-Wisconsin game and before they
were through darn if they didn't have the writer believing their meeting was
just as important as the daily practice sessions held by Coach Paul Brown.
   A typical meeting of the TGIF club goes something like this.  From three
to four o'clock on Friday afternoon, the members (almost every undergraduate
belongs) flock to the tavern and when the zero hour approaches standing space is
at a premium.  Ben, the jovial proprietor, usually has to lock the doors to
conform with local fire regulations the crowd is that large.  Promptly ar four
o'clock Miss Terry assumes her place at the organ and the familiar strains of
the State song "Fight the Team" start the meeting with a bang.  Then through a
series of fraternity songs that include at least one for every one of the 72
fraternities on the Buckeye campus.
   Midway in the festivities there is a short intermission that lasts for ten
minutes and after which the stirring march the "Buckeye Battle Cry" is sung
to start the second half of the meeting.  To end this strange hexing ceremony,
as it is sometimes called, the members assembled rise with the first chords of
their beautiful alma mater song, "Carmen Ohio."  As the alma mater is being
sung you can feel the pride in the voices of these loyal students as they tell
of the glories of Ohio State.  To them this a fitting climax to their unique
ritual and a guarantee of victory on the gridiron the following afternoon.
   Chances are if Bob Zuppke, great football coach of the University of
Illinois team that meets the Buckeyes in a game that has been designated by Ohio
State Alumni as being the homecoming game of the 1941 season, hears of this
strange club he will be all for (Col. 6--ed.) kidnapping Miss Terry and prevent
the sacred TGIF club from meeting this Friday afternoon, thereby insuring an
Illini victory over Coach Brown's warriors.  Knowing "Zup" as a mentor that never
misses a trick, the doughty sons of Ohio State had better keep a close watch
on their lovely organist the remainder of this week lest disaster creep into
the "hallowed temple," wherein lies the power and the glory and the secret of
success of Ohio State University's football team.  The place is better known as
Ben's Tavern.

   23 September 1954, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.(illegible), col.
3:
   A sign, "Welcome home, Don," and a beer bottle containing the letters,
"TGIF" were hung on the front door of their home.
   "TGIF," explained the family, referred to Dixon's favorite moptto while a
student at Syracuse university and stood for the undergraduate party cry,
"Thank God, It's Friday!"

   4 August 1955, BENNINGTON EVENING BANNER (Bennington, Vermont), pg.1, col.
8:
   RELAX at the
BENNINGTON CLUB'S
         COOL
   TGIF Club
Friday at 5 P. M.
Free Snacks


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:12:02 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:12:02 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <p04310106bbad199e8177@[131.151.65.140]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.091202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
line was off the hook."

dInIs

>"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
>intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
>of hunkering down in a bunker.
>
>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>>investigation is a delicate matter.
>
>
>Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
>speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
>it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
>really a straightforward matter.
>If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
>roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
>
>   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
>line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
>blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
>I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
>"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
>the semester.
>
>   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
>"phone was off the hook."
>
>   There are loads of examples.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Seán Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>>
>>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>>>(emphasis added)
>>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>>wave of popular disgust.
>>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>>two.
>>Seán Fitzpatrick

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:08:25 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:08:25 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.090825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:12 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>line was off the hook."

Phones can be off the hook, and lines can be down, but aren't normally 'off
the hook.'

Geoff


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:40:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:40:13 -0500
Subject: "The line was off the hook." (was   Re: Syntactic blending:
 bunker down)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.084013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The line was busy" + "The phone was off the hook."
 
Gerald Cohen

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/13/2003 8:12 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: Syntactic blending: bunker down
	
	

	I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
	line was off the hook."
	
	dInIs
	
	>"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
	>intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
	>of hunkering down in a bunker.
	>
	>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
	>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
	>>investigation is a delicate matter.
	>
	>
	>Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
	>speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
	>it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
	>really a straightforward matter.
	>If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
	>roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
	>
	>   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
	>line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
	>blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
	>I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
	>"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
	>the semester.
	>
	>   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
	>"phone was off the hook."
	>
	>   There are loads of examples.
	>
	>Gerald Cohen
	>
	>
	>At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Seán Fitzpatrick wrote:
	>>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
	>>
	>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
	>>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
	>>>(emphasis added)
	>>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
	>>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
	>>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
	>>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
	>>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
	>>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
	>>wave of popular disgust.
	>>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
	>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
	>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
	>>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
	>>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
	>>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
	>>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
	>>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
	>>two.
	>>Seán Fitzpatrick
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Oct 13 14:12:58 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:12:58 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.091258.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At what point does a blend cease to be a blend and become its own phrase?

Google returns about 2,360 hits for "bunker down"; LexisNexis provides 350
hits for "bunker down" AND NOT "golf" (to eliminate uses like the following:

The Houston Chronicle, June 08, 2003, Sunday, 2 STAR EDITION, SPORTS 2;, Pg.
1, 3680 words, U.S. OPEN PREVIEW; Olympia Fields grumbling is par for an
Open course, STEVE CAMPBELL
... narrow hole with a bunker down the left side. The tee ...)

Out of the 350 we still have a few adjectival PP, such as "... in a concrete
bunker down the road from the Price Slasher ..." and ... investigate a
strange bunker down deep within the bowels of ...". Discounting a
conservative 2/10, we are still left with about 280 genuine examples, dating
back to:

The Times (London), December 8 1986, Monday, Issue 62635., 332 words, Arts
(Television): From bed to worse, MARTIN CROPPER
  With their arch nicknames and economically sketched characters, the boys
in light blue down at Blackwall Fire Station seemed to have been seconded
from a sit-com of unknown provenance. They had only to tuck in to beef curry
and tinned apricots for the alarm bell to ring; they had only to bunker down
round a blue video for their new female colleague to amble in.

--Clai Rice


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 14:55:46 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:55:46 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031013090815.0278eed8@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.105546.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know that; I don't see why it is a question of syntax. I'm clearly quibbling.

dInIs

>At 09:12 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>>line was off the hook."
>
>Phones can be off the hook, and lines can be down, but aren't normally 'off
>the hook.'
>
>Geoff

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Oct 13 15:51:24 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
In-Reply-To: <p04310105bbae08f02ff5@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.085124.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Johann Strauss, Jr. (1825-1899) wrote the Chatterbox
Polka -- Plappermaulchen Polka Op. 245, which was
subtitled 'A Musical Joke, named for Josef Strauss's
daughter, who evidently was a little chatterbox.  Of
course I don't know if it was on Johann's original
manuscripts, but I've performed this piece with an
orchestra and under the German title was the subtitle
"Jasseusse" (spelling from memory).  I have no idea
how conversant J. S., Jr was in French, and this may
simply have been added later by a publisher - but then
again, this might indicate the word was popularly
known and used to some extent outside of France, and
that there could possibly be a German tie to the name
Jazzer (jasseur) or the word jazz.

--- Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
> To ads-l and ans-l:
>
> In the 1896 published joke, the two speakers are
> Jazzer and Gozlin.
> Jazzer, if literally "Chatterbox," would be an
> appropriate name for
> someone engaged in light-hearted banter.
>    Meanwhile, the name Gozlin closely resembles
> "gosling" (= a young
> goose; a foolish or callow person), even though the
> name reportedly
> derives from the French personal name Goscelin
> "just." So for the
> 1896 joke-writer, apparently the two participants
> were 'Chatterbox'
> and 'Young Goose/Foolish or Callow Person.'
>
>    Again, appropriate names for a humorous item.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name
> on the order of "Jones."
> Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous
> item, almost
> certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks
> of the
> mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik
> unearthed and which
> possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the
> word "jinx."



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 15:59:02 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:59:02 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <200310082227.h98MRlH25783@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.115902.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:

The butler did it (anything before 1938)
Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Oct 13 16:35:25 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:35:25 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.123525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," written by Joan Whitney and Alex Kramer, was recorded by Louis Jordan on 6-26-46, according to the liner notes to The Best of Louis Jordan.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:

The butler did it (anything before 1938)
Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 17:25:35 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:25:35 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <143.1a168475.2cbbac09@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.132535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:19 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>    It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from Columbus, Ohio!
>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.


>    13 November 1941, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 19, col. 4:
>_OHIO STATE'S TGIF CLUB_
>_SET FOR HOMECOMING_
>    By CHUCK McKENNA
>    COLUMBUS, Nov. 13--I thought I'd heard of everything in the way of booster
>clubs, alumni organizations and the like, but this city, home of the Ohio
>State university Buckeyes, and correctly called the Brooklyn of the football
>world, has come up with one that tops them all.  It's the "Thank God It's
>Friday"
>club, composed entirely of undergraduates here at State.
>    This unique organization holds its weekly meeting from 5 to 6 every Friday
>afternoon in a campus hangout called Ben's Tavern, that is a throwback to the
>days of the Student Prince at Old Heidelberg with its huge organ in the place
>of a "juke box," and the nightly singing of old favorites in the stead of
>swing music.  The High Priestess and major domo of this weekly reitual is the
>organist, Betty Terry, a lovely lady who is worshipped by the students of Ohio
>State for the part she plays in their ceremony each Friday.
>    Every member of this strange group firmly believes that if they were not
>to meet each Friday preceding an Ohio State foootball (Col. 5--ed.) game evil
>surely will befall State the following day.  It was my privilege to attend
>their meeting last Friday, prior to the Ohio State-Wisconsin game and
>before they
>were through darn if they didn't have the writer believing their meeting was
>just as important as the daily practice sessions held by Coach Paul Brown.
>    A typical meeting of the TGIF club goes something like this.  From three
>to four o'clock on Friday afternoon, the members (almost every undergraduate
>belongs) flock to the tavern and when the zero hour approaches standing
>space is
>at a premium.  Ben, the jovial proprietor, usually has to lock the doors to
>conform with local fire regulations the crowd is that large.  Promptly ar four
>o'clock Miss Terry assumes her place at the organ and the familiar strains of
>the State song "Fight the Team" start the meeting with a bang.  Then through a
>series of fraternity songs that include at least one for every one of the 72
>fraternities on the Buckeye campus.
>    Midway in the festivities there is a short intermission that lasts for ten
>minutes and after which the stirring march the "Buckeye Battle Cry" is sung
>to start the second half of the meeting.  To end this strange hexing ceremony,
>as it is sometimes called, the members assembled rise with the first chords of
>their beautiful alma mater song, "Carmen Ohio."  As the alma mater is being
>sung you can feel the pride in the voices of these loyal students as they tell
>of the glories of Ohio State.  To them this a fitting climax to their unique
>ritual and a guarantee of victory on the gridiron the following afternoon.
>    Chances are if Bob Zuppke, great football coach of the University of
>Illinois team that meets the Buckeyes in a game that has been designated
>by Ohio
>State Alumni as being the homecoming game of the 1941 season, hears of this
>strange club he will be all for (Col. 6--ed.) kidnapping Miss Terry and
>prevent
>the sacred TGIF club from meeting this Friday afternoon, thereby insuring an
>Illini victory over Coach Brown's warriors.  Knowing "Zup" as a mentor
>that never
>misses a trick, the doughty sons of Ohio State had better keep a close watch
>on their lovely organist the remainder of this week lest disaster creep into
>the "hallowed temple," wherein lies the power and the glory and the secret of
>success of Ohio State University's football team.  The place is better
>known as
>Ben's Tavern.
Dennis might know about this.  Well, he wasn't there in 1941, but . . . .


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 18:24:07 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:24:07 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031013132100.012d9d10@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.142407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>  >   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from
>>Columbus, Ohio!
>>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
>You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
>banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.

Yes, and Ohio Stadium was built as a giant horseshoe in honor of the
good fortune of CC, who set out to find India and ended up in central
Ohio instead.

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 19:29:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:29:36 EDT
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.152936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is nearly
illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours straining your eyes,
and then you find something really important, and then you tell the Chicago
Tribune, and then you get rejected for seven years--how much is all that worth?
   I would have preferred even the pieces of those first seventy years rather
than nothing at all.  "Sundae" is from the 1890s, and those years are
somewhat legible, so why can't we have it now?
   Here's the bad news:


Subj:   RE: Chicago Tribune
Date:   10/13/2003 9:09:30 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com">christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
CC: <A HREF="mailto:mary.sauer-games at il.proquest.com">mary.sauer-games at il.proquest.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry,

Glad to hear from you again.  And especially glad that the LAT is proving
beneficial.

Here's the update on the Tribune.   As we began to digitize the earliest
years of microfilm for the Tribune, we found the film quality to be so poor that
it was virtually unusable for creating a searchable ASCII text.  The film (done
long before ProQuest/UMI handled it's creation) had poor image quality with
frequently torn and missing segments.  Both the Tribune and ProQuest knew there
would be quality issues with the earliest years; however, it proved to be
more significant than we had hoped.

In view of the situation, ProQuest launched a nationwide search to track down
original hard copy and/or alternative film sources for the first four decades
(1849-1889).  Fortunately, we've located the majority of the years in this
time period.  We will now refilm these years and then digitize.  We are
anticipating a Q1 2004 launch for the early portion (pre1923) of the Chicago Tribune.
Though we have digitized a significant portion of the useable film from
1890-1922, we won't launch the product until the fuller time period of 1849-1922 is
ready for our customers.

As for Puck in APS, I'm referring you to Mary Sauer-Games, Director of
Publishing, for that particular product line.

Chris
Chris Cowan
Vice President, Publishing
ProQuest Information & Learning
300 N. Zeeb Road
Ann Arbor, MI  48106-1346
Ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204
Ph: 734-975-6204
Fax: 734-975-6271


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 19:50:59 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:50:59 EDT
Subject: Arnie's Army (1962)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.155059.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The phrase (in today's newspaper) has gone from a golfer (Arnold P.) to a
body builder (Arnold S.).  I don't have the Augusta (GA) microfilmed
newspapers handy, but we'll at least get close to a date.


   17 July 1962, LANCASTER EAGLE GAZETTE (Lancaster, Ohio), pg. 11, col. 8:
   Palmer's fans, sometimes called "Arnie's Army," followed the Pennsylvanian
as he played his way through the course.

   11 April 1964, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 14, col. 3:
   If you ever wondered (Col. 4--ed.) where the phrase "Arnie's Army" came
from it was coined by a makeup man on the Augusta Chronicle...since then he's
become a brush salesman, which must prove something or other.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Oct 13 21:49:19 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:49:19 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.174919.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        As you may recall, there was a discussion last month on the readability of this scrambled text, which seemed to be at least somewhat manageable as long as initial and final letters were unchanged.  Matt Davis, who says he works at Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit, in Cambridge, UK, a Medical Research Council unit that includes a large group investigating how the brain processes language, has produced this page on the current state of reading research as it relates to this meme:

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/%7Ematt.davis/Cmabrigde/


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?


>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 22:22:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:22:39 EDT
Subject: Sopaipilla (1947)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.182239.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Sopaipilla" will be in the next volume of DARE.  I don't know what they
have and I hope this helps.  Ancestry updated the DEMING HEADLIGHT (NM), as I
knew they would.


   7 November 1947, DEMING HEADLIGHT (Deming, New Mexico), pg. 3?, cols. 6-8:
(CAUTION!  Ancestry says this is from October 31.  The page, clear as
anything, says November 7--ed.):
MEXICAN PLATE with Salad.................................................
.85c
MEXICAN PLATE DELUXE....................................................1.00
TACOS.........................................................................
.........50
TAMALES.......................................................................
..... .50
ENCHILADAS (WITHOUT EGG)............................................. .50
ENCHILADAS (WITH ONE EGG)............................................ .60
ENCHILADAS (WITH TWO EGGS).......................................... .70
CHILI
RELLENOS................................................................... .60
CHILI CON CARNE Y HUEVOS (Chili with Egg)......................... .70
HUEVOS RANCHEROS..........................................................
.65
AROOZ A LA MEXICANA (Mexican Rice side order).................... .20
FRIJOLES REFRITOS (Refried Beans, side order)........................ .20
   Your Choice of Sopaipillas or Bread with Any Order
   The Only Place in Town Serving Sopaipillas with Mexican Food
LA FIESTA
"HOME OF MEXICAN FOODS"

   13 May 1955, DEMING HEADLIGHT (Deming, New Mexico), pg.6, col. 4:
PAN AMERICAN ROUND TABLE--Members and guiests enjoyed a dinner of true Latin
American flavor at their dinner meeting at Rio Mimbres Country Club Wednesday.
 (...)
   The delicious dinner menu included foods prepared in the manner of six
different Latin American countries.  The cocktail was Brazilian iced cafe
chocolate.  Costa Rican Sopa De Albondigas followed.  The meat was prepared to an
Argentina recipe for Puchero.  The green beans were flavored in the Uraguayan
manner and the Frijoles Refritos were inspired by Costa Rica.  The Ensalada de
Guacamole was according to Mexico and the dessert of Bunelos is a Nicaraguan
dish.  For bread Mexican Sopapillas were passed and the coffee was served as from
Brazil.


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 22:28:17 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:28:17 -0500
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.172817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some loosely connected observations...

I just overheard a nice example of the contexts in which "going to" can be
contracted.

Two people on the bus were discussing a mutual friend who is currently in
jail. At one point, the specific topic had to do with the likelihood of the
incarcerated friend mending her ways (or something like that) and one of the
speakers said:

"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."

I thought it was neat to hear how even in this extremely informal
conversation the final "to" doesn't seem to be a candidate for contraction
for this speaker. (It was [t@], but it was clearly there.)

This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
[w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?

And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
informants saying this on tape:
"I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
noticed?

(It's kinda depressing to notice that these instances of contracted or
uncontracted "to" have been cluttering my memory for years.)

-Mai


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Mon Oct 13 22:31:07 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:31:07 +0100
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <E1A9A26-0002VP-9d@tweedledum.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.233107.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Dé Luain, DFómh 13, 2003, at 16:59 Europe/Dublin, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)

Check out a song called "Ain't nobody here but us chickens"

Louis Jordan (1908 - 1975) - Born at Brinkley, he studied music with
his father and made his first professional appearance at Hot Springs's
Green Gables Club at age 15. During the 1930's Jordan worked with
well-known bands from Philadelphia to New York and toured with Ella
Fitzgerald. He penned such favorites as "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie," "Is You
Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby," "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," and
"Saturday Night Fish Fry." Jordan also appeared in several movies that
featured his music and toured Europe and Asia during the 1960s. He died
in Los Angeles and is buried in St. Louis. Member of the Arkansas
Entertainers Hall of Fame.

However, the song is also credited to two others. Alex Cramer or Kramer
and Joan Whitney (a husband and wife team). I believe that Jordan
recorded a cover version in around 1946 on Decca and that the duo were
the actual authors... many web sites credit them both.


Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 22:46:11 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:46:11 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.184611.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"There's nobody here but us chickens" is also the punchline of a joke.  I no doubt read it in the 50s, most likely in one of Bennett Cerf's collections, though I read a few other joke books then -- few since.
The premise is that a farmer hear a commotion among his chickens late at night, comes out with a lantern and shotgun.  The chicken thief, hiding, tries to defuse the crisis by saying "There ain't nobody here but us chickens."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony McCoy O'Grady <maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE>
Date: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:31 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry.com Searches

> On Dé Luain, DFómh 13, 2003, at 16:59 Europe/Dublin, Fred Shapiro
> wrote:
> > There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
>
> Check out a song called "Ain't nobody here but us chickens"
>
> Louis Jordan (1908 - 1975) - Born at Brinkley, he studied music with
> his father and made his first professional appearance at Hot Springs's
> Green Gables Club at age 15. During the 1930's Jordan worked with
> well-known bands from Philadelphia to New York and toured with Ella
> Fitzgerald. He penned such favorites as "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie,"
> "Is You
> Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby," "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," and
> "Saturday Night Fish Fry." Jordan also appeared in several movies that
> featured his music and toured Europe and Asia during the 1960s. He
> diedin Los Angeles and is buried in St. Louis. Member of the Arkansas
> Entertainers Hall of Fame.
>
> However, the song is also credited to two others. Alex Cramer or
> Kramerand Joan Whitney (a husband and wife team). I believe that
> Jordanrecorded a cover version in around 1946 on Decca and that
> the duo were
> the actual authors... many web sites credit them both.
>
>
> Tony McCoy O'Grady
> ------------------
> "The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
> .................................................WB Yeats
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 23:03:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:03:17 -0400
Subject: You can't hit what you can't see.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.190317.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"You can't hit what you can't see" is a baseball proverb that I'm sure I have heard from broadcasters in recent years.  Attempting a search for examples, early or recent, would tax my patience excessively, but I offer here an instance from 1914 which I have recently stumbled over.

[From an essay by "Billy Evans, American League umpire" on "What ails Walter Johnson".  When he entered the league he had been able to throw the ball with extraordinary speed and got a lot of strikeouts, but of late he has been allowing more hits, getting fewer strikeouts & losing more games than previously.]  "Sluggers who favored pitchers with speed never enthused when Johnson was announced as the Washington pitcher.  Most of them insisted that it was impossible to hit what you couldn't see. . . ."  NY Times, November 1, 1914, p. 54, through Proquest.

Johnson only won 28 games in 1914, so it was natural that there would be such speculation.  The previous year his record was 36 wins, 7 losses.  But as late as 1924 he was 23 and 7, that the next year 20 and 7.  His last year was 1927.  This information is from baseball-reference.com

The notion that some pitchers throw to fast for the ball to be seen is common, more or less.  There is an old joke of a batter arguing a called strike by saying "it sounded high".  In 1979 Cliff Johnson, a power hitter with the Yankees, broke the thumb of Goose Gossage, hard-throwing realief pitcher of the Yankees, in a locker-room shoving match that began when Gossage said that Johnson could only hear his fastball.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 23:14:51 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:14:51 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.191451.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had been supposing that it was necessary to show that "Jazzer" was a real name, however uncommon.  However, Douglas Wilson shows that it in the 1890s the interlocutors in "He and She" jokes might be given absurd, unheard-of names.  So the etymology or the name as well as the question of whether a person of that name might have come to the knowledge of the person who composed the joke seem beside the point.  In any event, we still don't have to concoct a speculative history of the word "jazz" that would account for it being known in central Massachusetts in 1896.

Nonetheless, there were a few people somewhere in the U. S. in the late 19th C named "Jazzer" or "Jasser".  I also notice that the 1951 edition of Albert Dauzat's dictionary of French names has "Jasse" "nom toponymique . . . designant un gite, un lieu de repos our le betail. . . and "Jasseur" & "Jassier", among others, as diminutives.  It's not in several other more recent dictionaries of French names, nor in the only dictionary of German names we have here at Bobst.  (Titles upon request.)

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:03 pm
Subject: Re: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)

> A   George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
> >raises the question" Where did this name come from?
>
> >You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
> >>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
> >>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that
> in as
> >>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
> >>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
> >>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.
>
> I reviewed some jokes taken from the "Roxbury Gazette". Character
> namesincluded:
>
> Jazzer & Gozlin [sic] (1896) [George Thompson's joke]
> Grazlin (1896)
> Dashem & Kasham (1896)
> Bablow & Gadwin (1899)
> Dozber & Jazlin (1895)
> Bloozin & Gablow (1898)
> Tablow & Scadman (1898)
>
> and even
>
> Mrs. Xrays & Mrs. Raysex
>
> etc., etc.
>
> On another note, jokes in the "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" in the same
> periodincluded our old friend Jinks quite often, including
> "Jinks", "Jinx", "Jinx
> and Wickwire", "Jinks and Binks", "Jinks and Blinks", "Jinks and
> Winks","Mr. and Mrs. Jinks", "Rev. Mr. Jinks", "Jinks and
> Filkins", "I. Jinks"
> [i.e., "high jinks" probably], etc., etc. The names do not seem to be
> correlated with material in the jokes; the names are essentially
> arbitraryin most cases IMHO, perhaps chosen for peculiar sounds.
> "Jinks" looks to be
> one of the most popular, and I take it to be an "everyman" name like
> "Jones", perhaps with some humorous freight from "highjinks".
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 01:50:29 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:50:29 -0400
Subject: Not tonight, Fred.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.215029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Not tonight, Josephine";  nothing on ancestry from 1885-1914.

Thought I'd post results so we don't duplicate--Barry, Jonathon.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
To: "American Dialect Society" <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Cc: <bapopik at aol.com>; <sclements at neo.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


>
> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 02:09:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:09:11 -0400
Subject: South still not rising over at ancestry.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.220911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nothing on ancestry.com from 1910-1952 for "The South will rise again."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 02:55:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:55:57 -0400
Subject: Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.225557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

We did this one over at the Straight Dope earlier this year.  One member
though it in Zane Grey, 'Riders of the Purple Sage(1912).  So I searched the
text, and in chapter VI, it says "Meantime, at the ranch, ....."

I know this isn't the exact phrase, but may be of interest.

Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 04:07:35 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:07:35 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.000735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,
Nothing on 'Nobody here 'cept us chickens.'  from 1963-1930.

I'll do this one back to the 1880's as it sounds like it should be older.

Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Tue Oct 14 08:06:37 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:06:37 +0100
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <E1A9F6q-0008W0-Od@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.090637.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Dé Luain, DFómh 13, 2003, at 23:28 Europe/Dublin, Mai Kuha wrote:

> Some loosely connected observations...
<snip>
> (It's kinda depressing....

How appropriate that this contraction should pop up in this message :-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Tue Oct 14 11:14:52 2003
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:14:52 -0400
Subject: Cleaning up the list
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.071452.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

For each post to ADS-L, approximately 25 messages are bouncing back as
undeliverable for some reason.  Over the morning I will be removing "bad"
addresses from the subscription list.  When I have performed this routine
maintenance task in the past, I have sometimes inadvertently removed someone
from the list whose email account is causing only a temporary problem.

So, if you should receive a message indicating that you have been removed from
the list by me, do not take it as a personal affront.  Simply re-subscribe in
the usual manner and accept my apologies in advance.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 14 13:21:17 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:21:17 EDT
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.092117.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Probably a waste of good e-space, but here goes:

In a message dated > Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:59:02 -0400,  Fred Shapiro <
> fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> writes:
>
> ...here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)

Does anyone else hearing this saying immediately think of Josephine
Bonaparte?
>
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)

Frequently cited as "an old Chinese curse"; it might be interesting to see if
such an old Chinese saying actually exists.
>
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

There is a possibility that Polly Adler used this phrase before 1935.  In her
memoirs _A House Is Not A Home_ (1953) she describes hiding out in the New
York area and reading a newspaper article saying she was in Cuba.  She writes
something to the effect that she was tempted to send a message to that writer
saying "Close but no cigar".

I am under the impression (which could easily be wrong) that this is an old
saying among carnival-goers.  Many carnivals had a game in which the customer
(sucker?) swung a mallet at a lever which flung a metal something at a bell at
the top of a column.  The object was to hit hard enough to get the bell to
ring.  Supposedly the prize for doing this was a cigar.  Hence, "close, but no
cigar".

There is of course the possibly related saying "Close only counts in
horseshoes" and its more dramatic rendering "close only counts in horseshoes and hand
grenades".

                  - James A. Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Oct 14 13:35:02 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:35:02 -0700
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <18b.20c916ef.2cbd524d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.063502.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:
> Probably a waste of good e-space, but here goes:
>
> > Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
>
> Does anyone else hearing this saying immediately
> think of Josephine
> Bonaparte?


Yes



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 14:43:09 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:43:09 -0400
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <BBB09131.18FF%mkuha@bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.104309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tryinna" seems very normal to me, as long as an infinitive follows the
contracted 'to'.  Otherwise, I'd expect the full "trying to" with implied
infinitive, as in your "going to" example.  I've also heard "wanu"; in
fact, I think (with fuzzy memory) it may have been the more common
contraction when I was younger.  But this is just impressionistic.  BTW,
was it really a schwa in the first syllable, or [a]?

At 05:28 PM 10/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Some loosely connected observations...
>
>I just overheard a nice example of the contexts in which "going to" can be
>contracted.
>
>Two people on the bus were discussing a mutual friend who is currently in
>jail. At one point, the specific topic had to do with the likelihood of the
>incarcerated friend mending her ways (or something like that) and one of the
>speakers said:
>
>"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."
>
>I thought it was neat to hear how even in this extremely informal
>conversation the final "to" doesn't seem to be a candidate for contraction
>for this speaker. (It was [t@], but it was clearly there.)
>
>This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
>me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
>her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
>car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
>[w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
>I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?
>
>And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
>informants saying this on tape:
>"I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
>neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
>I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
>noticed?
>
>(It's kinda depressing to notice that these instances of contracted or
>uncontracted "to" have been cluttering my memory for years.)
>
>-Mai


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Oct 14 17:51:39 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:51:39 -0700
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <200310141633.h9EGXrQP028997@mxu5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.105139.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was the second "Just ain't going to."  drawn out?  In that case, I would
expect that the switch to the full phrase was definitely for emphasis, and
the speaker ought to have been shaking his head at the same time.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

> >"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:28:49 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:28:49 -0600
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL02OwiTaCKojli00055ee3@exmail02.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.132849.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now that you mention it, this is what stood out to me about that instance of
"tryinna": it is separated from its infinitive by "I think more than
complain". ("Tryinna" does seem very normal to me too, but somehow I never
notice anyone saying it.)

Maybe it was "wanu", not with a schwa. The [u] threw me for such a loop that
I'm sure my perception and memory of the first vowel are entirely
unreliable.

-Mai

on 10/14/03 8:43 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIOU.EDU wrote:

> "Tryinna" seems very normal to me, as long as an infinitive follows the
> contracted 'to'.  Otherwise, I'd expect the full "trying to" with implied
> infinitive, as in your "going to" example.  I've also heard "wanu"; in
> fact, I think (with fuzzy memory) it may have been the more common
> contraction when I was younger.  But this is just impressionistic.  BTW,
> was it really a schwa in the first syllable, or [a]?
>
> At 05:28 PM 10/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>> (...)
>> This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
>> me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
>> her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
>> car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
>> [w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
>> I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?
>>
>> And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
>> informants saying this on tape:
>> "I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
>> neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
>> I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
>> noticed?
>>
>> -Mai


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:28:53 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:28:53 -0600
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL01b02iZmTzgL50006544e@exmail01.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.132853.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It certainly did sound emphatic to me, but I believe the uncontracted "going
to" accomplished the emphasis by itself, as "just ain't going to" didn't
seem different from the rest of the conversation in terms of prosody or
speed of delivery.

-Mai

on 10/14/03 11:51 AM, J. Eulenberg at eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote:

> Was the second "Just ain't going to."  drawn out?  In that case, I would
> expect that the switch to the full phrase was definitely for emphasis, and
> the speaker ought to have been shaking his head at the same time.
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
>>> "Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Oct 14 20:01:54 2003
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:01:54 -0400
Subject: Coinage Rate Statistics?
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.160154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Are there any studies that I can be pointed to on the rates at which
new words enter the English language, and especially, how these rates
might change in response to cultural, technical, geo-political, etc.,
influences (e.g. world wars, cultural movements, communications
technologies)?

Gareth


From zafav at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 14 22:16:36 2003
From: zafav at HOTMAIL.COM (zafer av�ar)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:16:36 +0000
Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole" (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.221636.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there anyone who likes to answer those questions for me: If you wrote
those sentences in more basic way which ones would you use to in exchange
for them?
1.You are not so very blooming yourself p9
2.Isn�t it though p16
3.Peace of mind is the hallmark of slaves p17
4.He thinks he�s in his circle. P18
5.so just come in for crying out loud p23
6.I have every intention of amazing nobady p25
7.May what you say be the truth p26
8. cold cuts?
9.Intricate to a fault? P31
10.The lord has flushed me out p35
11.They put up with everything p37
12.She commands the stage by God, and it hasn�t got a thing to do with her!
P37: Allah i�in b�t�n sahneyi dolduruyor ama oyunda onunla ilgili tek �ey
yok!
13.My wife is but barely attuned to the macrocosm?
14.to get things going? P43
15.Your outing did you a world of good p47
16.we are done for:? p48
17.I dont feel like howling p48
18.I feel like getting it off my chest p49:
19.there are too few and it is not worth your while to begin: p51
20.Finding it therefore impossible to live and recoiling from the great
cure..:p52
21.Will wonders never cease:p56
22.But you have no more tricks up your sleeve? P57
23.Time is of interest to me: p77
24.So much the worse p78
25.I did not put it right p81
26.take on little  contour p81
27. So that all this may look like it holds water. You have been impossible
up until now.  p81
28. timeclock it, dont half cock it. P82
29. Deep down only words interest me p82
30.timeclock it p82: Saat y�n�nde �evir.
31.I am a poeth who would rather not know it p82:
32.for Pete�s sake?
33.But give hime room to breathe for Pete�s sake p86 : Allah a�k�na izin ver
de bir nefes als�n..
34.If you had your heart sen on being hooted down, you could not have done
better P87
35.Men like you are needed p88: senin gidi adamlar reva�ta..
36.so that toffee may go being sold p88: Dalkavukluk para etsin diye..
37.Your praises are sung p88:
38.That was bluffing p92.
39.He made me promise to look like I was living so you too would look like
you were living p93
40.It is not the line I would have taken p93
41.Scratch him a little thereabouts p94:
42.Have too keep the rubbernecks well entertained p97:
43. It is getting stagey p99:
44.not what the living call dead p102:
45.That must have dealt him a low blow p105:
46.He denies her right of entry p106:
47.raving right along p108.
48.it is amazing the help people need in ceasing to be: p112:
49.But rest assured it�s more than likely he is as scummy as the rest of us
p114:
50.If I have been a little bit off in my own world, If I have minced words
insufficiently, lay it to the account of an oldu enthusiasm, about to be
snuffed out. P114.
51.So near giving away! P119
52.Color is the missing of a beat p119
53.The grain of wheat discovered in a hypogem is sprouting after three
thousand years of dry sleep p127
54.He doesn�t give a thinker�s damn p131:
55.It is not enough that he insists on explaining himself only in the wings,
but he requires imbeciles to the bargain p133
56.we who senselessly dared to speak of something other than staple
rationing p134:
57.One look at a cork and they are out of commission p135
58.Better you, obviously than rotten eggs. P139
59.Cut to the chase :p139
60.I am as much your village gossip as the gentleman who doesn�t get taken
in. P143
61.It�s either that or a fit p144
62.That would be to let all hell break loose p146
63.Set forth with vagueness: p147
64.Auvergnat:? p148
65.The merest streetlamp, just something to set off the fog p149:
66.If you felt me deep down to be one of your own kind: p161
67.But far away from words..p 163
68.You acept one�s getting beyond life or its getting beyond you p163
69. make a peep p165
70.You must nevertheless have had a bite from time to time p165
71.He is in a class by himself p166
72.Everybody has his dealer p166
73.Stories, well there�s no getting them told with impunity p167
74.Well, for crying out loud p168
75.Now that the damage is done p170
76.Slaughterfest: p173
77.Honor to whom honor
78.The wind in the reeds p179
79.He casts it behind the ozone! P181
80.Don�t let yourself be pushed around!
81.I like my revels to be well-attended p186
82.How low the ground is



Ea
�e
Au
aeiu


>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole"  (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:56:18 EDT
>
>COWBOY UP--The rallying cry of the Boston Red Sox.  It's from the rodeo.
>
>MASSHOLE--Used by Yankee fans to describe Red Sox fans (from
>Massachusetts).
>Not in the HDAS.  Google Groups has hits as far back as 1985 and 1986.  See
>the multiple entries in the Urban Dictionary:
>
>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Masshole

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:07:51 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:07:51 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <p0432040fbbb09d7da479@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.150751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:24 PM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>>  >   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from
>>>Columbus, Ohio!
>>>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
>>You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
>>banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.
>
>Yes, and Ohio Stadium was built as a giant horseshoe in honor of the
>good fortune of CC, who set out to find India and ended up in central
>Ohio instead.
>
>L

P.S.  A replica of the Santa Maria also sits/floats in the Scioto
River--hoping for a link to the Northwest Passage, no doubt.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 14 23:28:12 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:28:12 -0700
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031014150623.01e52650@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.162812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> P.S.  A replica of the Santa Maria also sits/floats in the Scioto
> River--hoping for a link to the Northwest Passage, no doubt.

damn!  i was going to point this out.

i've been *on* this santa maria.  (scarily small.)  with *john glenn*,
even.  but then i lived in brutus-buckeye-land for 29 years.  (nice
place, actually.)

arnold in ahnuldland


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 15 00:01:09 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:01:09 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.200109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

>>Don't sit there mumblin'
And talkin' trash
If you want to have a ball
You got to go out and spend some cash
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Don't care if you young or old
Get together, let the good times roll.<<

John Baker


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 00:19:08 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:19:08 -0700
Subject: Just Say No
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.171908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

it was an ordinary graduate seminar.  we were discussing arcane points
of theory and of english.  iin particular: "whose" and (interrogative)
"which", which i was discussing as interrogative words that didn't (for
many speakers) take postposed "else", because they are modifiers (with
omitted heads) rather than heads.

one student wrinkled his brow.  he was reminded of "this" and "that",
which he'd been taught in high school *never* to use on their own.
(always add a noun.)  i gaped at him, never having heard such a thing.
then two other students chimed in, with supporting stories.

mild pandemonium ("hemidemonium"?) ensued.  and then i saw what was
going on: it was yet another instance of Just Say No (a.k.a. If It's
Sometimes Ineffective It's Always Unacceptable)): people had seen that
bare "this" and "that" were often desperately unanchored in the context
of their students' writing, so they just told them not to use bare
"this" and "that" at all.  (you can't get cut if you never pick up a
knife.)

later i had an "aha" experience, when i understood the writing of a
student who persistently produced vague-referent "this one' and "that
thing" etc.  like my grad students, he'd been told *never to use "this"
or "that" without a following noun*.  one weeps.

the top-line handbooks are entirely clear about this; in fact, they
never actually state the proscription, but confront it crabwise.  both
MWDEU and garner's DMAU say quite clearly that the real proscription
(one of usage rather than grammar) is against ambiguity of reference in
context and remark that deictics don't have to have nouns immediately
following them.

i haven't looked at the firing-line handbooks on this point -- i have a
*very* large collection -- because i fear what i will see.

arnold, living briefly in innocent  (but suspicious)  bliss


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 15 01:22:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:22:03 EDT
Subject: Pie a la mode (1903) & PUCK
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.212203.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another ten hours of parking tickets today.  What a waste of a life...Not
only is my salary an embarrassment, but they didn't even pay for for two
different weeks.  I'm still owed pay for the blackout week two months ago.  I need
that money to buy a sandwich.
   Two students have tried to commit suicide by jumping at NYU's Bobst
Library.  Maybe George can tell me what they were reading?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PIE A LA MODE

   The NYPL has a NEW YORK HERALD clipping file, but it wasn't much help.
"PIE A LA MODE A TRUST CREATION" is the title of a public health story in the
NEW YORK HERALD< 7 November 1903, pg. 14, col. 1.
   The Cornell University digital library of international women's
periodicals provided this, a little earlier than OED's best pie:

   January 1903, AMERICAN KITCHEN MAGAZINE, pg. 158, col. 2:
   Many persons will prefer this combination to the pie with ice-cream,
sometimes known as pie a la mode.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PUCK

   Later in the year?  What happened to summer?  I've got a "hot dog" book
coming out.  How can I do "red hot" without PUCK and the CHICAGO TRIBUNE?


Subj:   RE: Chicago Tribune
Date:   10/14/2003 2:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:Jo-Anne.Hogan at il.proquest.com">Jo-Anne.Hogan at il.proquest.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Dear Barry

Puck is scheduled to be added to APS before the end of the year.

Sincerely,

Jo-Anne Hogan
Product Manager, Chadwyck-Healey
ProQuest Information and Learning
jo-anne.hogan at il.proquest.com
Ph: 734.761.4700, Ext 3049
Fax: 734.975.6440


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 15 01:49:28 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:49:28 -0400
Subject: Pie a la mode (1903) & PUCK
In-Reply-To: <1cf.128f46ca.2cbdfb3b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.214928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:22 PM -0400 10/14/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    Two students have tried to commit suicide by jumping at NYU's Bobst
>Library.  Maybe George can tell me what they were reading?
>
OT:  This for me implicates that they failed to commit suicide.  In
fact they succeeded.

larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Oct 15 01:53:49 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:53:49 -0500
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.205349.0500.>

"Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@] gone"
and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of gone".
I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red Rabbit_
on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last week.)
On page 349, Clancy writes

"That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
impossible to arrange."

This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it goes in
the other direction.

By the way, the book isn't worth the bother.  Clancy's slipped a bit from
his _Red October_ days.

Herb


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 15 02:01:28 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:01:28 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAD7@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.220128.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 08:01:09PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is
>talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good
>Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my
>transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

When we discussed it here most recently I think 1947
in the New York Times was the best anyone could come up
with.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 15 02:57:50 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:57:50 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.225750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to walk
on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo.  When I can, I use the
elevator.  It is not so much which book they might have been reading but
rather what field of study they were pursuing.

David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Oct 15 06:05:13 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:05:13 -0700
Subject: library suicide
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017ce7723b9aca0010d91533.17ce7cd@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.230513.0700.>

which library is it David? where is it located?

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barnhart
Sent: October 14, 2003 7:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: library suicide


I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to walk
on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo.  When I can, I use the
elevator.  It is not so much which book they might have been reading but
rather what field of study they were pursuing.

David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 15 11:23:02 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:23:02 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.072302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bobst at NYU


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 15 11:46:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:46:18 EDT
Subject: Heroes, Heros, and New York Times
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.074618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   You knew this was going to happen.  You know it's not going to be 
corrected.  Someone write in to the New York Times and, for a good laugh, ask for 
documentation.
  
  
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/dining/15HERO.html
Hey, Po' Boy, Meet Some Real Heroes

By ED LEVINE

Published: October 15, 2003

E are a city of heroes. The rest of the country may clamor for po' boys and 
hoagies, grinders, subs, wedges or torpedoes, but New York knows what really 
constitutes a gigantic sandwich, and what raises the hero above those 
pretenders; what makes it gastronomic royalty.

Let there be no misunderstanding by those who have never ventured to New 
York, or by those who have come lately, or by those who diet. The hero is a 
sandwich of cured Italian meats. These are layered into a forearm's length of fresh 
crusty bread, often with a few slices of Italian cheese and a condiment or two 
atop them — pepperoncini, yes; roasted peppers, yes; mayonnaise, an emphatic 
no. Also, perhaps, a splash of vinegar, certainly a drizzle of olive oil. Some 
ground pepper, a sprinkle of salt. But no more. No sun-dried tomatoes sully 
the interior of a true hero, no pesto, no Brie, no fancy pants ingredients at 
all.

A hero, at least for today, is cold. (We will return to the subject of hot 
heroes — your pillowy meatball sandwiches, mighty chicken parmigianas, lengths 
of hot sausage and pepper — at a later date.) It is made by Italians, most 
often, in family run stores, and is usually served wrapped in paper, to eat 
outside somewhere. A hero has working class origins. It is lunch in tubular form.

In 1936, Clementine Paddleford, the legendary food writer on The New York 
Herald Tribune, unwittingly named the sandwich, saying, "You'd have to be a hero 
to finish one."
(...)
  
   Heroes or Heros?
  
   Clementine Paddleford STARTED on the New Yprk Herald Tribune in 1936.  She 
did not name the sandwich in 1936, nor did she ever admit to naming the 
sandwich.
   As ADS-Lers may know, I went through every single Clementine Paddleford 
column in 1936...and 1937, and 1938, and 1939, and 1940, and 1941, and so on.  
It was extremely time-consuming.
   For all this work, I got paid nothing at all.  
   I found "hero" in the 1940s.
   I would write in to the New York TImes, but they still haven't printed 
even "the Big Apple" (which became a law, signed by the mayor), so what's the 
use?
   More parking tickets in a few minutes.  SOMEBODY PLEASE KILL ME! 


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 15 12:07:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:07:09 -0400
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.080709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS cites the following as its first use of the word "movie":

1902 Jarrold _Mickey Finn_ (ad on rev. title):  After the Movies "Murine"
Your Eyes.

This citation, much earlier than anything else that has been found as far
as I know, is repeated in OED.

Sam Clements has graciously obtained a copy of the book referred to above,
_Mickey Finn's New Irish Yarns_ (1902), which he has lent to me.  There is
no advertisement on the reverse of the title page and, although there are
ads in the back of the book, none of them includes the "movie" usage.  I
think that, unless someone locates another copy of the book that does
contain the Murine ad, the OED/HDAS cite should be considered erroneous.

As I have indicated before, this leaves the following citation (from
ProQuest Historical Newspapers) as the earliest known usage of "movie":

1911 _Wash. Post_ 1 Aug. 6  I learned how to bake stuffed tomatoes at the
'movies' last night.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 15 13:52:34 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:52:34 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.095234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Yes, and I even participated in that discussion, which had totally slipped my mind.  This 1946 use does seem to be an antedate, unless we accept Barry's 1869 use from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle:  "If we began to excuse and scrutinise the trash that is talked in political meetings . . . ."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Talkin' Trash


On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 08:01:09PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is
>talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good
>Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my
>transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

When we discussed it here most recently I think 1947
in the New York Times was the best anyone could come up
with.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 16:54:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:54:30 -0700
Subject: library suicide
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017ce7723b9aca0010d91533.17ce7cd@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.095430.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 07:57 PM, David Barnhart wrote:

> I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
> level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to
> walk
> on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo...

i was just about to say the same thing.  it's a beautiful space, but a
kind of hell for an acrophobe.

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 18:06:58 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:06:58 -0700
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.110658.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 06:53 PM, Herbert Stahlke wrote:
>
>> "Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@]
>> gone"
>> and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of
>> gone".
>> I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red
>> Rabbit_
>> on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last
>> week.)
>> On page 349, Clancy writes
>>
>> "That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
>> impossible to arrange."
>>
>> This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it
>> goes in
>> the other direction.
>
> something a bit different might be going on here.  "so" is one of the
> degree modifiers that trigger indefinite marking on the following noun
> (what i've called "exceptional degree modifiers"):  a very vast
> complication, so vast a complication, *(a) so vast complication.
> you're assuming that the "a" here is what's been reinterpreted as > "of".
>
> but that's standard english.  a widespread nonstandard variety of
> american english has double marking with exceptional degree modifiers,
> involving the preposition "of" as well as the indefinite article: that
> big of a tree, so vast of a complication.  perhaps this is the variety
> clancy is representing in his novel.  if so, the speaker would be
> expected to say "so vast of a one", which strikes me as awkward to
> pronounce -- an awkwardness that could be alleviated by omitting one
> of the unaccented words, and the "a" has the least accent and the
> least phonetic substance, so it's the prime candidate for omission.
> then the "of" that appears would be just the "of" of the nonstandard
> degree modifier construction, not an indefinite article in
> prepositional clothing.
>
> arnold, doubting that asking clancy what he was doing would be of any
> use,
>   even if he was willing to answer
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 16:56:37 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:56:37 -0400
Subject: have, of, and a
In-Reply-To: <000201c392bf$33daec20$1c15fea9@ibm12258>
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.125637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>"Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@] gone"
>and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of gone".
>I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red Rabbit_
>on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last week.)
>On page 349, Clancy writes
>
>"That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
>impossible to arrange."
>
>This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it goes in
>the other direction.
>
>By the way, the book isn't worth the bother.  Clancy's slipped a bit from
>his _Red October_ days.
>Herb

A third, and very common, variant is "of a," as in "not so vast of a
one."  I don't like this and always cross out the 'of' when I see it in
writing (I accept it in speaking, though I still don't like it).  Looks
like Clancy is hypercorrecting, perhaps from both the spoken contraction
and the growing use of "of a."


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Oct 15 19:04:51 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:04:51 -0700
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.120451.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> A third, and very common, variant is "of a," as in "not so vast of a
> one."  I don't like this and always cross out the 'of' when I see it in
> writing (I accept it in speaking, though I still don't like it).  Looks
> like Clancy is hypercorrecting, perhaps from both the spoken contraction
> and the growing use of "of a."
>
As a "layman," I don't find it strange that 'one' would replace the
indefinite article *and* the noun in a phrase such as "not so vast of [a
complication]" Isn't this essentially what is happening in a use of 'one'
such as: "Did you bring a laptop?" "No, I don't have one," meaning "I don't
have [a laptop]"

I'm sure there are subtleties I'm missing here, but "not so vast of a one"
sounds weirder to my ears than "not so vast of one." I know that "a one" is
sometimes used, in phrases like "not a one," but it sounds more natural to
me in most cases to use "a" or "one" but not both.

-David Colburn


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 15 19:49:23 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:49:23 -0400
Subject: GLAC-10/SHEL-3: Call for Papers
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.154923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This CFP may be of interest to ADS-L members:

-----
Call for Papers: GLAC 10/SHEL 3

The 10th annual conference of the Society of Germanic Linguistics and
the 3rd annual conference on Studies in the History of the English
Language will be held jointly in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

SHEL 3 will be held May 6-7, 2004
GLAC 10 will be held May 7-8, 2004

Faculty, graduate students, and independent scholars are invited to
submit abstracts for 20-minute papers to either SHEL or GLAC. Proposals
to GLAC may be on any linguistic or philological aspect of any
historical or modern Germanic language or dialect, including English (to
the Early Modern period) and the extraterritorial varieties. Proposals
to SHEL may be on any linguistic or philological aspect of the history
of English. A single author may submit one abstract to GLAC and one to
SHEL. Authors may submit two abstracts to the same conference if one is
jointly authored.

Papers from a range of linguistic and philological subfields, including
phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, pragmatics,
sociolinguistics, stylistics, metrics, language acquisition, contact,
and change, as well as differing theoretical perspectives, are welcome
for both conferences. SHEL will also host a pedagogy workshop; we
welcome proposals for 20-minute pedagogical presentations.

We strongly encourage a submission of intent (name and provisional paper
title) by Dec. 1, 2003. Full proposals are due Jan. 15, 2004. Abstracts
can be submitted in print form or electronically; for those submitting
abstracts electronically, please send them as PDF files if they contain
any specialized fonts.

Send abstracts to:

SHEL                                            GLAC
Anne Curzan                                     Robin Queen
Department of English                   Department of Germanic Languages
& Literatures
3187 Angell Hall                                3110 MLB
University of Michigan                  University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003                        Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
acurzan at umich.edu                               rqueen at umich.edu


For further information, contact
Anne Curzan (SHEL): acurzan at umich.edu
Robin Queen (GLAC): rqueen at umich.edu

For further information, please also see our website:
http://www.umich.edu/~glacshel/


From sllauns at ISU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 20:33:53 2003
From: sllauns at ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:33:53 -0600
Subject: a-prefixing
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.143353.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was wondering
what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is it
no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?

Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
but I haven't found anything recent.

Sonja Launspach

_______________________________________________________________________
Sonja Launspach
Assistant Professor Linguistics
Dept.of English & Philosophy
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209
208-282-2478
fax:208-282-4472
email: sllauns at isu.edu


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 22:40:02 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:40:02 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.184002.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The atrium is 12 stories high.

I occasionally encounter someone who finds the balconies & stairs disquieting, but not so very often, actually.  I would suppose it to be a reasonably common issue.

I was told by people who were with the library in the 1960s, when the building was designed, that the director of the library was not consulted in the planning.  I was also told that the president of NYU wanted a big goddamned building that would dominate the square and assert NYU's presence.  Zoning requirements limited the building to floorspace 6x the plot of land it would stand on.  The Pres could have had a 12 story building on 1/2 the plot, or a 6 story building on the whole plot, but neither met his requirement of a big goddamned building.  So with so finagling -- I'm not saying bribery, mind you -- the zoning board accepted a 12 story building filling the whole plot, so long as the atrium used up half the possible floor space.

I came to NYU about 6 months before Bobst opened.  The common babble on campus then was, "I'll be afraid to walk across the atrium, because I might be hit by a jumper."  This from people who would walk down the streets, under the windows of apartment buildings & offices.  The university assigned one of the psych profs to write a paper proving that jumpers don't jump inside buildings.  Like a well-trained social scientist, he ignored all evidence that would undercut his position, viz, the scarcity of buildings designed so as to facilitate jumping within the building, and produced the paper, which I doubt anyone read.

In the event, we managed to go 30+ years without a jumper.  Since we have had one and a copycat, we have to anticipate the possibility of others, I suppose, and the university is going to enclose the balconies and stairs.  In the meanwhile, I continue to cross the atrium, when necessary.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: library suicide

> On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 07:57 PM, David Barnhart wrote:
>
> > I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from
> each> level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I
> have to
> > walk
> > on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo...
>
> i was just about to say the same thing.  it's a beautiful space,
> but a
> kind of hell for an acrophobe.
>
> arnold
>


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct 16 00:16:41 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:16:41 -0500
Subject: more syntactic blending
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.191641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While traveling this past week I  heard a "maple" syrup commercial
where the end line was "It's not rocket surgery!"

Yet another instance of being reminded of a linguistic process and then
hearing it everywhere ...

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com


On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

>  "The line was busy" + "The phone was off the hook."
>
>  Gerald Cohen
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/13/2003 8:12 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Cc:
>       Subject: Re: Syntactic blending: bunker down
>
>
>
>       I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>       line was off the hook."
>
>       dInIs
>
>       >"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
>       >intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
>       >of hunkering down in a bunker.
>       >
>       >>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>       >>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>       >>investigation is a delicate matter.
>       >
>       >
>       >Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
>       >speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
>       >it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
>       >really a straightforward matter.
>       >If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
>       >roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
>       >
>       >   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
>       >line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
>       >blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
>       >I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
>       >"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
>       >the semester.
>       >
>       >   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
>       >"phone was off the hook."
>       >
>       >   There are loads of examples.
>       >
>       >Gerald Cohen
>       >
>       >
>       >At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Seˆ°n Fitzpatrick wrote:
>       >>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>       >>
>       >>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>       >>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>       >>>(emphasis added)
>       >>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>       >>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>       >>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>       >>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>       >>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>       >>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>       >>wave of popular disgust.
>       >>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into
>the bunker with".
>       >>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>       >>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>       >>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>       >>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>       >>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>       >>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>       >>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>       >>two.
>       >>Seˆ°n Fitzpatrick
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 00:37:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:37:50 EDT
Subject: Caketails & Pietinis; Murder Burger & Mugly
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.203750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAKETAILS & PIETINIS

   From today's WALL STREET JOURNAL (I can't copy it; NYU Bobst has
restricted FACTIVA access and I'm avoiding the Bobst and its falling objects for a few
days), 15 October 2003, pg. 1, col. 4:

_Dinner and Drinks?_
_Now, They Come_
_In the Same Glass_

_"Bar Chefs" Add Ham, Basil_
   _And Gelatin to Cocktails;_
   _"Bloody Mary on a Plate"_
(...)
   Then there's the dessert cocktail.  A few months ago, the woners of the
New York City restaurant Dylan Prime, who also run a cocktail consulting company
called Drink Tank, developed Caketails and Pietinis, or cocktails that
imitate the taste of cake and pie.

(There's a photo of "The Amaretto Cheesecake Caketail," so expect this to
take off as the next hot food thing, just behind that naked "body sushi"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
MURDER BURGER

   I was walking to my miserable little (now non-paying!) job in the Bronx
and passed a sign at First Way Deli-Grocery, 1030 East Tremont Avenue, "HOME OF
THE MURDER BURGER."
   Can this be true?  A home for "Murder" advertised in the Bronx?
   I spoke to the man behind the counter.  It's simply a cheeseburger with
the works--lettuce, pickles. etc.  No, I didn't want to try "murder."
   There is a California franchise with this name.  It advertises burgers "to
die for."  Hey guys, Godfather's Pizza went out of business because of puns
like this.

(TRADEMARKS)
Typed Drawing
Word Mark     MURDER BURGER
Goods and Services  IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT AND CARRY-OUT SERVICES.
FIRST USE: 19860602. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860602
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73611195
Filing Date July 24, 1986
Published for Opposition    December 30, 1986
Registration Number 1434346
Registration Date   March 24, 1987
Owner   (REGISTRANT) MURDER BURGER, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 978 OLIVE
DRIVE DAVIS CALIFORNIA 95616
Attorney of Record  LEWIS ANTEN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BURGER" APART
FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MUGLY

   I was looking through my GOOD HOUSEKEEPING files for "pie a la mode" when
I found April 1889, pg. 255, "Every-Day Desserts...Mugly...255."  Another
recipe for "Mugly" appears about a year later.
   Mugly?  An ugly mug?  Monkey ugly?  Mother-fucking ugly is an everyday
dessert?
    "Mugly"--the slang term--is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL
DICTIONARY OF SLANG.  There are several entries at urbandictionary.com.
    I didn't see "mugly" in the American Peiodical Series Online.  It must
not have made the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, for some reason.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 16 00:41:05 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:41:05 -0500
Subject: a lexical blend
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.194105.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last Wednesday an announcer at the Cubs/Marlins game said in
reference to a pitcher's performance: "That was a galliant effort."
(valiant + gallant).

Gerald Cohen



At 7:16 PM -0500 10/15/03, Erin McKean wrote:
>...
>Yet another instance of being reminded of a linguistic process and then
>hearing it everywhere ...


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 16 01:35:05 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:35:05 -0400
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.213505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In support of Fred's arguments against a 1902 date for "movie," I used
ancestry.com tonight to search for "Murine/movie."  There WAS a hit in a
Wisconsin paper from 1915.  It, indeed, said "After the movies, Murine your
eyes."  But there was NO such ad from 1902-1914.

Murine, as a product appears in 1904.  It may appear earlier, but I didn't
check before 1902.  But I  DID spot check Murine from 1902-1914.  I read
perhaps 50-70 ads.  There were probably 100-200 ads.  There was no "movie"
there.  They seem to have started that ad campaign in 1915.  I might be off
by a year or so, if checking each hit was important.  But there were few ads
in the 1904-1908 period.  The ads increased in the 1910-1915 period.  And,
since it appears that it was a Chicago product, the ads mostly appeared in
the Wisconsin/Iowa papers.

I think Fred nailed this one.

SC

I also searched for "Murine."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"


> HDAS cites the following as its first use of the word "movie":
>
> 1902 Jarrold _Mickey Finn_ (ad on rev. title):  After the Movies "Murine"
> Your Eyes.
>
> This citation, much earlier than anything else that has been found as far
> as I know, is repeated in OED.
>
> Sam Clements has graciously obtained a copy of the book referred to above,
> _Mickey Finn's New Irish Yarns_ (1902), which he has lent to me.  There is
> no advertisement on the reverse of the title page and, although there are
> ads in the back of the book, none of them includes the "movie" usage.  I
> think that, unless someone locates another copy of the book that does
> contain the Murine ad, the OED/HDAS cite should be considered erroneous.
>
> As I have indicated before, this leaves the following citation (from
> ProQuest Historical Newspapers) as the earliest known usage of "movie":
>
> 1911 _Wash. Post_ 1 Aug. 6  I learned how to bake stuffed tomatoes at the
> 'movies' last night.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 05:55:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:55:22 EDT
Subject: Screwdriver (1952)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.015522.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1938 and not the 1950s, but I
thought I'd look for an early "screwdriver" on Ancestry.


   24 December 1952, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg.9-D, col. 4:
   "BRING ME a screwdriver, please," a customer told a waiter in a cafe here
the other day.
   "A screwdriver?  Is there something wrong with the table, sir?" said the
waiter...who found out, that way, that a "screwdriver" is a mixture of vodka
and orange juice.

(Earl WIlson's syndicated column...Ancestry says this is from 1953, but the
"Merry Christmas 1952" editorial tipped me off.  It's 1952--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 06:44:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:44:48 EDT
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.024448.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That Invented
Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
by <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books%26field-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-7641756">Tyler Anbinder</A>


   In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it is true,
is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
   I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-Webster's 11th has
1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I gotta go.


   21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana), pg.9, col. 5:
   The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out by such
inanities.

(O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 16 13:37:47 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:37:47 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)--how about 1911?
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.093747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From ancestry.com, The Washington Post, January 29, 1911.  (P. 3, col. 3)

     "Karl Emmy's pets, Bissett and Scott, in fance tap dancing and catchy
songs, and the Royal Colibris, lilliputian comedians, in their fanciful
sketch, "The Baby, the Nurse, and the Corporal," complete the bill."

(I'm still trying to figure out why Karl's pets had names like Bissett and
Scott  <rimshot> )

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:44 AM
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)


> Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That
Invented
> Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
> by <A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books%26fiel
d-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-7641756">Tyler Anbinder</A>
>
>
>    In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it is
true,
> is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
>    I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-Webster's 11th
has
> 1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I gotta go.
>
>
>    21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana), pg.9, col.
5:
>    The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out by such
> inanities.
>
> (O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Oct 16 15:18:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:18:09 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.111809.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The idea that tap-dancing was invented in the 5 Points is based on the idea that it is a mingling of Irish and Afro-American styles of dancing.  There was a notable black dancer in NYC in the 1830s who called himself Master Juba.  He was seen by Dickens while Dickens was on a slumming tour of the 5 Points, and his dancing described in "American Notes".  I suppose as a result of this publicity, he went to England and danced, dying there at a young age.  He had cutting contests (not so called) with "Master Diamond" in the city theaters, for large prizes.  I don't have notes on any of the contests between Juba and Diamond, but several are cited in Odell's History of the New York Stage.

In the scrap below, "negro dancers" means either "black-face" or "in the negro style".  $500 was a hell of a lot of money.
        The grand match between the celebrated negro dancers Master Diamond and R. W. Pelham, recently attached to the Broadway Circus, is to be danced tonight to decide the wager of $500.  ***  The judges of the match will award the stake to the successful competitor on the stage, and in the presence of the audience.  ***  Morning Herald, February 13, 1840, p. 3, col. 1;
Chatham Theatre.  ***  This evening, the rivals Diamond and Pelham, will again dance together, not to decide a wager, but to submit it to the audience, which of the two can come it the strongest in the smoke house dance, Virginia break-down, Long-Island double-shuffle, or the Campdown hornpipe; the whole entertainment being for the benefit of Master Diamond.
Morning Herald, February 19, 1840, p. 2, col. 5;
Broadway Circus. -- Sweeney, the king of melody, and Diamond, the prince of darkey dancers [will perform].  Morning Herald, February 20, 1840, p. 3, col. 1.

Diamond was evidently white.
Disorderly conduct. -- Last evening the lad John Diamond, who exhibits his powers in imitating the African race, by dancing, &c at various public places of amusement, was arrested . . . for most outrageous conduct at the house of Mary Jane Montgomery, No. 102 Church street.  ***  MC&N-Y Enquirer, August 17, 1844, p. 2, col. 4.

The real name of "Master Juba" is generally said to be William Henry Lane, but there may have been more than one man using the name.  Compare the case of "Little Egypt".
Lewis Davis, alias Master Juber, a gentleman ob [sic] color, professing to be a self-taught musician, and the tutor of master Diamond, and, withal, a public character, being at present engaged in travelling through the states, dancing negro extravaganzas, break-downs, &c., accompanying himself on the guitar, under the cognomen Master Juber [is accused by] Patrick Halenback, a black waiter of the steam boat DeWitt Clinton [of robbing him of a parcel].  NY Daily Express, September 14, 1840, p. 2, col. 5

To bring this back to philology, here are a couple more names of dances.
[a small boy, 5, who had learned to dance "'Jim along Josie' and 'Flat Foot' in imitation of more devoted negro representatives on the stage" is picked up on the streets at 11 o'clock]  NY D Tribune, August 9, 1841, p. 2, col. 4

Names of these newspapers spelled out on request.

There is a note on Master Juba, with a picture, at http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2juba1.htm
This says he toured the U. S. under P. T. Barnum and died in Philadelphia in 1857, which differs from what I have said above, which is what I recall having read elsewhere, but I won't say it's wrong.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:44 am
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)

> Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood
> That Invented
> Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
> by http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-
> url/index=books%26field-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-
> 7641756">Tyler Anbinder
>
>
>   In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it
> is true,
> is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
>   I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-
> Webster's 11th has
> 1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I
> gotta go.
>
>
>   21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana),
> pg.9, col. 5:
>   The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out
> by such
> inanities.
>
> (O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)
>


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Oct 16 15:27:31 2003
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:27:31 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
In-Reply-To: <2e2326c2e244c6.2e244c62e2326c@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.112731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:18 AM -0400 George Thompson
<george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

> The idea that tap-dancing was invented in the 5 Points is based on the
> idea that it is a mingling of Irish and Afro-American styles of dancing.
>
I think a better conjecture would be on the island of Barbados where Irish
were exiled to by Cromwell after the conquest of Ulster that was begun
under Elizabeth I. In 1649 12,000 men were transported.  These redlegs and
their descendants inhabited a place where slave ships deposited their human
cargo and they intermarried with Africans.  The similarity of Irish dance
and tap certainly suggests some influence and Barbados is a likely place.


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 16 21:10:01 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:10:01 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141001.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to the Latinteach
list the following:

... one student 3 times used a word [in an assignment]
  I have never
seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
thought I would run it past all of you in case someone
recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or can
anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.

Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
particularly muleociated with the institution of
marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
association works here, but that persistently was not
the word he chose.

I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
head.

(end quote)

Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
three places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system,
and a couple of others for developers of the open source version of
Netscape's browser, Mozilla.

Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation

Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
muleociation with Far Cry.

[and]

http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html

\"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is
instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view object with it,
commonly known as a view.

(end quote)

Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
"Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to
be a signature file which is no longer in use.

Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:

http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23mozilla.2002-12-23.log

09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk" mond="moon" so there
09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in n.p.m.reviewers using
censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate :-)
09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was translation... makes more sense now

(end quote)

Cf. "mucilage"?

A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned up no hits at all.

Has anyone here run across the term before, and does anyone have an
idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular areas, and
whether it (usually) bears any distinction in meaning from
"association"?

Thanks!

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 16 21:11:45 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:11:45 -0700
Subject: a-prefixing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.33.0310151431100.4871-100000@ux5.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141145.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 01:33 PM, Sonja L Launspach wrote:

> I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was
> wondering
> what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is
> it
> no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
> younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?

the ozarks and the sea islands, at least.

walt wolfram and his collaborators are the a-prefixing mavens.

> Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
> but I haven't found anything recent.

works from the 80s on the appalachians and the ozarks.  more recently,
e.g.,

Wolfram, Walt & Natalie Schilling-Estes. 1997.  Hoi toide on the Outer
Banks.  Chapel Hill: Univ. of NC Press.

arnold


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct 16 21:12:20 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:12:20 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002003bbb4b482e477@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141220.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

mule - ass, get  it?


--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:
> A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to
> the Latinteach
> list the following:
>
> ... one student 3 times used a word [in an
> assignment]
>   I have never
> seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
> seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
> thought I would run it past all of you in case
> someone
> recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or
> can
> anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.
>
> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was
> not
> the word he chose.
>
> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my
> student's
> head.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Searches for assorted forms of the word
> ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a
> handful of uses in
> three places: a discussion forum for players of the
> Xbox game system,
> and a couple of others for developers of the open
> source version of
> Netscape's browser, Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means
> "association":
>
>
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere
> to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
>
http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom
> view is
> instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view
> object with it,
> commonly known as a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain
> in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation,"
> but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.
>
> Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:
>
>
http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23mozilla.2002-12-23.log
>
> 09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk"
> mond="moon" so there
> 09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in
> n.p.m.reviewers using
> censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate
> :-)
> 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
> translation... makes more sense now
>
> (end quote)
>
> Cf. "mucilage"?
>
> A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned
> up no hits at all.
>
> Has anyone here run across the term before, and does
> anyone have an
> idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular
> areas, and
> whether it (usually) bears any distinction in
> meaning from
> "association"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **
>  Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Thu Oct 16 22:16:12 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:16:12 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <20031016211220.21102.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.151612.0700.>

that's an asinine way of 'improving' the English language ;)

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: October 16, 2003 2:12 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


mule - ass, get  it?


--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:
> A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to
> the Latinteach
> list the following:
>
> ... one student 3 times used a word [in an
> assignment]
>   I have never
> seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
> seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
> thought I would run it past all of you in case
> someone
> recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or
> can
> anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.
>
> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was
> not
> the word he chose.
>
> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my
> student's
> head.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Searches for assorted forms of the word
> ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a
> handful of uses in
> three places: a discussion forum for players of the
> Xbox game system,
> and a couple of others for developers of the open
> source version of
> Netscape's browser, Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means
> "association":
>
>
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere
> to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
>
http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom
> view is
> instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view
> object with it,
> commonly known as a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain
> in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation,"
> but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.
>
> Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:
>
>
http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23
mozilla.2002-12-23.log
>
> 09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk"
> mond="moon" so there
> 09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in
> n.p.m.reviewers using
> censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate
> :-)
> 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
> translation... makes more sense now
>
> (end quote)
>
> Cf. "mucilage"?
>
> A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned
> up no hits at all.
>
> Has anyone here run across the term before, and does
> anyone have an
> idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular
> areas, and
> whether it (usually) bears any distinction in
> meaning from
> "association"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **
>  Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Oct 16 22:35:45 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:35:45 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.173545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear John:

Sorry, but is this a joke?

>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student is
using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some folks'
hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
extremes.

I once had an editor who wouldn't let me refer to a mythical country song
named "It Took A Hell of a Man to Take My Ann, But It Sure Didn't Take Him
Long" on the basis of his impression that the "Take" in the title referred
to the Biblical sense of "take" as "sexually possess." More importantly, I
suppose, he was worried that the readers of the metropolis of San Antonio
Texas would assume that meaning -- and furthermore, that they would care.

Perhaps I'm too simplistic, but FWIW.
Susan Yerkes

   -----Original Message-----
From: John McChesney-Young [mailto:panis at PACBELL.NET]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 4:10 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Muleociation


A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to the Latinteach list the
following:

... one student 3 times used a word [in an assignment]
  I have never
seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
thought I would run it past all of you in case someone recognizes it as
either a word or a misspelling or can anyone figure out where in Hades he
got it.

Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
particularly muleociated with the institution of
marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
association works here, but that persistently was not
the word he chose.

I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
head.

(end quote)

Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in three
places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a couple
of others for developers of the open source version of Netscape's browser,
Mozilla.

Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation

Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
muleociation with Far Cry.

[and]

http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html

\"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate your
tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as a view.

(end quote)

Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase, "Proud
member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to be a
signature file which is no longer in use.

Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:

http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23
mozilla.2002-12-23.log

09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk" mond="moon" so there 09:30
< Neil> heh, someone posting in n.p.m.reviewers using censorware - associate
gets turned into muleociate :-) 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
translation... makes more sense now

(end quote)

Cf. "mucilage"?

A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned up no hits at all.

Has anyone here run across the term before, and does anyone have an idea of
its origin, if it's common in any particular areas, and whether it (usually)
bears any distinction in meaning from "association"?

Thanks!

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message.


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 16 23:09:27 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:09:27 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <200310162236.h9GMaOiw010758@mtac1.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.160927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET> asked:

>Sorry, but is this a joke?

In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only
observe that the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken
in, if that's the appropriate phrase for our common state of
innocence.

>>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student is
>using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
>substitute for the word "ass"

Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach
list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for
"woman," something I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
- although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed
otherwise.

which still is enough to raise some folks'
>hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
>of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
>extremes.

I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether
an attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a
genuinely unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of
some other motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it,
I'm puzzled by its use in a serious high school assignment and I'd
still be interested in reports of its non-colloquial use.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 16 23:09:45 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:09:45 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <A77F47C541025144B174E0C78425D70B9F5E61@saenexch.saen.express-news.net>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.160945.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 03:35 PM, Yerkes, Susan wrote,
replying to john mcchesney-young's forwarding of a query about
"muleociation" in a high school student's writing:

> Sorry, but is this a joke?

there is the "heaveno" for "hello" business, so someone involved could
have meant this sort of seriously.  but it looks like a jocular coining
to me; i hear adolescent giggling.  of course, once coined, a word can
spread in many ways, and its origins can be lost.

> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
> student is
> using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some
> folks'
> hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
> sort
> of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum
> to
> extremes.

i think the person who thought this up should be mulemuleinated.

from the teacher:

> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
> head.

well, from *some* body part.

john:

> Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
> three
> places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a
> couple
> of others for developers of the open source version of Netscape's
> browser,
> Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":
>
> http://forum.teamxbox.com/
> showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
> threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
> http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate
> your
> tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as a
> view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
> "Proud
> member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to be a
> signature file which is no longer in use.

if you *really* want to pursue the matter, you could ask the writers of
these passages where they got the word and what they think they were
conveying by using it.  of course, they might not be willing to give
you any muleistance.

arnold


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Oct 16 23:12:43 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:12:43 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.181243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gotcha. It is really puzzling when somebody puts what seems like a very
silly word joke and sticks it someplace that not even a pun is apt (As in,
perhaps, "in some parts of the country, the Democrat party is often
muleociated with the common ass."

-----Original Message-----
From: John McChesney-Young [mailto:panis at PACBELL.NET]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 6:09 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


"Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET> asked:

>Sorry, but is this a joke?

In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only observe that
the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken in, if that's the
appropriate phrase for our common state of innocence.

>>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
>student is using the word "mule" as a questionably punny substitute for
>the word "ass"

Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach list I
now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for "woman," something
I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
- although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed otherwise.

which still is enough to raise some folks'
>hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
>sort of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass
>dictum to extremes.

I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether an
attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a genuinely
unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of some other
motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it, I'm puzzled by its
use in a serious high school assignment and I'd still be interested in
reports of its non-colloquial use.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 00:53:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:53:30 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.205330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from "Death Valley" here at the NYU Bobst Library.
  FOR GOD'S SAKE, KIDS, DON'T JUMP!  THAT'S INSANE!  THE STOCK MARKET'S GOING UP!!!!!

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at July 1939, and not a moment too soon for Halloween is perhaps the origin of "trick or treat."
   It's a little long, but I'll type the whole thing.



HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 30, 1938.                   p. A8 (1 page):
_GETTING IN PRACTICE FOR NIGHT OF FUN_
(Photo--ed.)
(Photo caption--ed.)  Elio Martini, left, and Wendy Rough tie bicycle to post as prelude to Halloween.
_HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED_
_BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND_
   "Trick or treat!" is the Halloween hijacking game hundreds of Southern California youngsters will play tomorrow night as they practice streamlined versions of traditional Allhallows Eve pranks.
   The preparations are simple: a bar of soap, some old films and a couple of Times funny papers clipped into confetti.  From house to house the boys and girls will travel, punching doorbells with nerve-jangling peals.
_TINY GOON SQUAD_
   "Trick or treat!" is the terse command as the householder peeks warily around the door.  "If you don't give us something, we'll play a trick on you.  You wouldn't want your porch littered with paper, or your windows soaped, or a smelly roll of burning film left around, would you?"
   So the diminutive Halloween goon squads are bought off with cookies, candy, tickless alarm clocks or the price of an ice cream cone.
_SIGNBOARDS TARGET_
   With election but a week away it will be a field night for the Halloween billboard artists.  The more subtle pranksters already have spotted all the wind socks in their vicinity and are stuffing shirts with rumpled papers, ready to be judiciously affixed to candidates' signboards.  Where no wind socks are available, a well blown-up paper bag will make an acceptable substitute.  Less imaginative of the costumed prowlers Monday night will be content to change the benign expressions of the pictured candidates with ferocious mustaches and beetle-browed frowns.
_FEW GATES LEFT_
   Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops, loose kiddie cars and motor scooters can be hitched to doorknobs, trash baskets can be emptied on front lawns and flower pots can appear on chimneys.  Portable (Next column--ed.) signs that unwary filling station proprietors forget to take in always make good decorations for streetcars and city halls.
   The automobile will be subjected to unusual hazards Halloween night.  If the windows escape a few "nerts" and "foos" scrawled in soap or paraffin, the owner is sure to find a shirt clothespinned to the radio aerial or a stack of tin cans tied on the axle.
_DUMMIES PREPARED_
   Of course, Halloween funsters are even now fixing lifelike dummies to be placed on busy thoroughfares just to give motorists a bad half-minute or to send police with sirens screaming to "investigate a dead body."
   Pumpkins will never lose their appeal for the very young at Halloween time.  Although some of the jack-o'-lanterns now are lighted with flashlights and even wired for sound, most of the faces stick to the traditional toothy grins and triangles for eyes and noses.
   It's a grumpy citizen indeed that won't be frightened into shrieks at the appearance of a little imp on Halloween night, attired in a spooky costume and carrying a lighted pumpkin and a rattling chain.


("Nerts" and "foos"?...Greenwich Village has a big party.  For something really scary, dress up as a Chicago Cub--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 17 00:53:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:53:13 -0500
Subject: Fwd--Information on "The Sporting News"
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.195313.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, from SABR (Society for American Baseball Research).

Gerald Cohen


>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:51:08 -0500
>From: jzajc at SABR.org
>Subject: [SABR Info] This Week in SABR, October 16, 2003
>To: gcohen at umr.edu
>
>I have exciting news to share!
>
>Cold North Wind is digitizing the old "Bible of Baseball"--The
>Sporting News--for Paper of Record (www.paperofrecord.com).
>Preparing for a November 1 launch date, they are offering all SABR
>members an almost 50% discount on the annual subscription to Paper
>of Record. I just bought my subscription and found myself fascinated
>in searching through the very few Sporting News they already have
>posted. And I did not even begin to imagine what else I could search
>for with all the other digitized papers they have available. This is
>a big step forward for baseball research.
>
>To take advantage of this offer, which expires November 15, go to
>the SABR members-only site: http://members.sabr.org
>
>Log On (if you have forgotten your username and password, click the
>link just below the log  on section; also, be aware that name means
>username, not your given name)
>
>Click the Paper of Record box in the lower left-hand corner.
>
>Follow the directions.
>...
>Thank you for your support of SABR,
>
>John Zajc
>Executive Director


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 17 00:55:37 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:55:37 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Hero(1939) Sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.205537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't want to steal any of Barry's thunder, but his recent diatribe
against the NYT shafting him once again, got me searching.

Ancestry.com, from The Charleston(WV) Daily Mail, June 23, 1939,  page
5/column 4:

     Tastiest tidbits on the Island are toasted rolls and bacon at Child's,
the clams and shrimp cocktails at the Clam Bar, the honey buns at Hirsch's,
the shashlik, fried shrimp, fried clams and chow mein on the boardwalk, the
sunshine cocktail and shore dinner at Scoville's, the Hero Sandwich (a loaf
of Italian bread with ham and Swiss, American or Bel Paese cheese), and, of
course the hot corn and frankfurters all along the route.

I have no doubt that Barry has searched ancestry for this, but the damn
search engine requires skill, art, luck, and.......most of all luck.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 02:33:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:33:33 -0400
Subject: Caciocavallo (1673)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.223333.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 17,200 Google hits for "caciocavallo" cheese.  It is not in the OED.

http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=731
 caciocavallo cheese
 [kah-choh-kuh-VAH-loh]
 From southern Italy, caciocavallo  (meaning "cheese on horseback") is said to date back to the 14th century, and believed by some to have originally been made from mare's milk. Today's caciocavallo  comes from cow's milk and has a mild, slightly salty flavor and firm, smooth texture when young (about 2 months). As it ages, the flavor becomes more pungent and the texture more granular, making it ideal for grating. Caciocavallo is one of the pasta filata  types of cheeses (like PROVOLONE and MOZZARELLA), which means it has been stretched and shaped by hand. It may be purchased plain or smoked and comes in string-tied gourd or spindle shapes.



Title
 Observations topographical, moral, & physiological; made in a journey through part of the Low-countries, Germany, Italy, and France: with a catalogue of plants not native of England, found spontaneously growing in those parts, and their virtues. By John Ray ... Whereunto is added A brief account of Francis Willughby esq; his voyage through a great part of Spain.
Imprint
London, Printed for J. Martyn, 1673.

   Gerald Cohen asked me to re-read this book for the Pg. 224 passage.

Pg. 224:  The _Bologna_ sausages, washballs, and little dogs are much esteemed and talked of in all _Italy_ and elsewhere.
(Yes, it's "washball" or "wash-ball" as printed--ed.)

Pg. 401:  They eat also many sorts of _shell-fish_, which we either have not or meddle not with, as Purples, Periwinkles of several sorts, _Patellae_ or Limpets, Sea-urchins, which last are to be found every day in the markets at _Naples_.
(OED has 1753 for "patellae"--ed.)

Pg. 407:  In the Kingdoms of _Naples_ and _Sicily_ they make a sort of cheese which they call _Caseo di cavallo_, i. e. Horse-cheese, for what reason I could not learn.  These cheeses they make up in several forms; some in the fashion of a blown bladder, some in the fashion of a cylinder and some in other figures.  They are neither fat nor strong, yet well-tasted and acceptable (Pg. 408--ed.) to such as have eaten of them awhile.  The pulp or body of them lies in flakes and hath as it were a grain one way like wood.  They told us that they were made of Buffles milk, but we believed them not, because we observed not many Buffles in those Countries, where there is more of this cheese made than of other sorts.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 03:21:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:21:02 -0400
Subject: San Quentin slang (1936)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.232102.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      My San Quentin Years
       James B Holohay.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 6, 1936.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   The bright boys who get out The San Quentin Bulletin, a convict-edited and prison-published magazine that would do credit to any publishing house, have compiled a dictionary of prison slang.
(...)
   I append here a glossary of the most interesting of the prison words as compiled by The Bulletin staff:
ALKY, alcohol.
ANGLE, to scheme.
BEAK, judge.
BEND, to steal.
BLOT OUT, to kill.
BREEZE, to leave.
BUG, burglar alarm.
BUM BEEF, punishment without reason.
BURIED, to be held incommunicado by police.
BROOM, disappear hastily.
BONARUE, good, excellent.
BOX, a safe, a phonograph.
BINDLE, a paper of narcotics.
BANK, a dope, a shot.
BACK DOOR PAROLE, to die in prison.
BLOW YOUR COPPER, to lose good time prison credits.
BUCK, a Catholic priest.
CASE DOUGH, a limited amount of money.
CAUGHT IN A SNOWSTORM, drugged iwth cocaine.
CRAZY ALLEY, a fenced-in section at San Quentin where slightly daffy prisoners are kept.\
COPPER-HEARTED, by nature a police informer.
CREEP-JOINT, a gambling house that moves to a different apartment each night.
CRIB, a safe.
CROW McGEE, no good, not the real stuff.
CECIL, cocaine.  (Must be "the straight dope"--ed.)
CROAKER, a doctor.
COPPER, good prison records.
COP A HEEL, assault someone from behind.
DINAH, nitroglycerine.
DRILL, to shoot.
DROPPER, a paid killer.
DUMMY UP, shut up.
DINGALINGS, goofy prisoners, or those called "stir simple" after long years in prison.
DUFFER, bread.
EYE, detective.
FINGER-MAN, person who obtains detailed information.
FOG, to shoot.
FALL GUY, one who takes the "beef."
FALL MONEY, bail and legal fees.
FENCE, one who buys stolen goods.
FINK, a squealer, a rat an informer.
FIN, a five-doller bill.
FIN UP, five-years-to-life.
GOY, a gentile.
GREASE, money paid for protection.
GLOM, grab, steal.
GRAND, $1000.
GANDER, look, walk.
GREEN GOODS, counterfeit money.
GOW, morphine.
GARBAGE, food.
GUM HEEL, police officer.
HEAT, trouble.
HERDER, guard in prison.
HIDE-OUT, a place of refuge.
HIJACK, to steal or extort personal belongings from fellow cons.
HIST, to hold-up, to hijack.
HEELED, armed with gun or plenty of money.
HYPE, narcotic addict, to short change.
HOLE, the convict name for San Quentin's dungeon.
HOOD, hoodlum.
HOT, a stolen object.
HEBE, a Jew.
HINCTY, suspicious.
JINNY, a blind pig.
JUNK, dope.
KICK BACK, to return to victim that of which he has been robbed.
KICK OVER, to rob.
KOSHER, not guilty, clean.
KIP, a bed.
LIFEBOAT, a pardon, a commutation of sentence.
LIP, a lawyer.
McCOY, genuine.
MESHUGA, crazy.
MUSCLE IN, to secure a share by force.
MUG, photo.
NOSE, a police spy.
ON THE ERIE, shut up, someone is listening.
OFFICE, a signal, a cue.
ON THE MUSCLE, angry, quarrelsome.
OUT, an alibi.
PATSY, all right.
PAY-OFF MAN, cashier of a mob.
PUT THE CROSS ON, to mark for death.
QUEENS, effeminate convicts.
ROSCOE, a hand-gun.
SHAG, worthless.
TRIGGER MAN, boydguard.
SLAM OFF, to die.
SWAMP, to arrest.
SLIM, a police spy.
TOMMY, a machine gun.
SNEEZE, to kidnap.
TOMMY GEE, a machine-gunner.
SPEAR, to arrest.
TORPEDO, an assassin.
SHIN, a knife or other contraband, dagger, stiletto.
SQUEEZE, to graft.
SIBERIA, solitary confinement cells.
   In connection with the word "fink," which, I understand, became widely used during the strike troubles in San Francisco in 1934, I might say that "fink" is the most hated man in prison.  "Squealing" is rare.  I have seen men dying from a knife wound suffered during a quarrel in the yard.  But they wouldn't tell who did it.  And you couldn't have beaten the information out of any witnesses with a baseball bat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 03:53:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:53:23 -0400
Subject: Le Roy Young slang dictionary (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.235323.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      Around and About in Holvwood
       READ KENDALL.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 13, 1935.                   p. 9 (1 page):
_HEALY DEFINES_
_A STOOGE_
   Generally conceded to be the foremost expert on stooges, Ted Healy yesterday was called upon to give his definition of this gentry by a Chicagoan, Le Roy Young, who is compiling a dictionary on slang.  Here it is:
   "STOOGE: A man, woman, child or dummy, employed by a mug (See Mug) for the purposes of feeding (See Feeding) cues to the latter in an endeavor to build up (See Build up) or plus (See Plug) a gag, joke, speech or song.  Synonyms: Builder-upper, yes man, feeder, shadow."


(Does anyone know what slang dictionary that Chicagoan Le Roy Young has published?...Where oh where is that Chicago Tribune?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 08:46:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:46:45 EDT
Subject: Frozen Custard (1919); Sam is my Hero
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.044645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SAM IS MY HERO
  
I have no doubt that Barry has searched ancestry for this, but the damn
search engine requires skill, art, luck, and.......most of all luck.
SC
  
   Have doubt.  I never searched for it!
   Why?  Because there are 30,000 food terms I have to antedate in my spare 
time, when I'm not comatose from parking tickets.  I could've done it, but I 
just didn't.  I traced "hero" to Brooklyn, and just thought I'd wait until the 
BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE project was finished and the Brooklyn Historical Society 
re-opened.
   Sam beat me to it!
   The 1939 citation is important.  I'd previously looked at Clementine 
Paddeford's work, and "hero" ain't there in 1936.
   Sam should immediately write a letter to the editor of the NEW YORK TIMES 
and share his find (free of charge) with the rest of the world.  Do it!
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FROZEN CUSTARD
    
   The "hero sandwich" citation  was in a Coney Island article, written by 
Walter Winchell.  It also has this:
  
   23 June 1939, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 5, 
col. 4:
   One of the resort's most popular palate tempters--frozen custard--was 
invented by mistake.  The inventor was really trying to perfect a new ice-cream 
mixer which didn't work.
  
  
   Why is Conery Island "frozen custard" less celebrated than the "hot dog"?  
Get out your old reliable John F. Mariani ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND 
DRINK (1999), look for "custard" and "frozen custard," and there's...nothing at 
all!
   It's widely known that the stuff was popularized at Coney Island in 1919.  
A check of the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE up to 1902 for "frozen custard" has no 
hits.  However, Ancestry has quite a few hits before 1919 and I'll type some 
here.  As to frozen custard's invention "by mistake," well, it was already well 
known by 1919.  Another myth?

    
   30 January 1885, CHESTER TIMES (Chester, Pennsylvania), pg.3?, col. 5:
Frozen Custard.
(Menu item at Aubrey Hotel--ed.)
  
   31 July 1910, COSHOCTON DAILY TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg. 4?, col. 2:
      _FROZEN CUSTARD._
   Make a quart of rich vanilla custard and when it is cold add a cupful of 
cream and the beaten whites of three eggs used in the quart of milk.  Mix well 
and freeze.  More sugar and vanilla are required in the mixture when frozen 
than in the custard simply served cold.
        
   18 August 1910, COSHOCTON DAILY TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg. 3, cols. 
5-6:
_FROZEN CUSTARDS--THEY'RE OFTEN BETTER THAN ICE CREAM_
(Excellent, long article.  Invented by mistake in 1919, eh?--ed.)
  
   14 March 1921, WICHITA DAILY TIMES (Wichita Falls, Texas), pg. 3, cols. 
6-7:
Frozen Boiled
Custard
ICE CREAM
(Something New)
ONLY AT WINSTON'S
"AS PURE AS THE MORNING DEW ON THE ROSES"
TAKE A PAIL HOME
Winston's Drug Store
    
   29 November 1929, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg.4, col. 3:
   Frozen custard stands like those at Coney Island.
("In New York" by O. O. McIntyre--ed.)
  
   23 August 1933, WAUKESHA FREEMAN (Waukesha, Wisconsin), pg.4, col. 4:
   Now Broadway, that Coney Island annex, is dotted with cubicles dispensing 
giant receptacles for the frozen custard, some weird with modernistic lining.
  
   29 June 1934, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 8, 
col. 8:
   Surf avenue, Coney Island's Broadway...Sea-food, chop suey, kewpie dolls, 
frozen custard, hula dancers, hotels by day or week, two big feature pictures.
  
   13 June 1936, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.4, 
col. 8:
   Frozen Custard With Chocolate Dip, 5 cents.
  
  
(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark    KOHR'S THE ORIGINAL FROZEN CUSTARD 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: ice cream, frozen 
yogurt, frozen custard(ABANDONED) IC 032. US 046. G & S: beverages
Mark Drawing Code   (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM 
Serial Number   74383844    
Filing Date April 28, 1993  
Filed ITU   FILED AS ITU    
Owner   (APPLICANT) Kohr's Frozen Custard The Original, Inc. CORPORATION NEW 
JERSEY P.O. Box 176 Seaside Heights NEW JERSEY 08751 
Attorney of Record  Edward F. Liston, Jr.   
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    February 23, 1994   

(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL SINCE 1919 KOHR BROS FROZEN CUSTARD    
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: frozen custard, fruit sorbet, ice 
cream, ice milk, frozen yogurt. FIRST USE: 19190600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 
19190600IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services; namely, soda fountain 
services and frozen custard store services. FIRST USE: 19190600. FIRST USE IN 
COMMERCE: 19190600 
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  130102 200306 261121 261128 
Serial Number   74236274    
Filing Date January 9, 1992 
Published for Opposition    March 29, 1994  
Registration Number 1940323 
Registration Date   December 12, 1995   
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Kohr Bros., Inc. CORPORATION PENNSYLVANIA 2115 BERKMAR 
DRIVE CHARLOTTESVILLE VIRGINIA 22901  
Attorney of Record  James C. Wray   
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "FROZEN CUSTARD" 
and "BROS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN   
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK 
Register    PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART  
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). 
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.kohrbros.com/coney.html
Our founder, Archie C. Kohr, was born in York, PA in 1893 on the family's 
dairy farm. He was a teacher and to supplement his income, he and his two teenage 
brothers started a home delivery milk business.
  
In 1917, Archie wanted to expand his business by selling homemade ice cream 
to his customers.  He had developed a special recipe and purchased a locally 
made batch ice cream freezer. But it didn't work properly.
  
He tore the machine apart, reconfigured the gearing and bearings, reshaped 
the barrel and blades and ran his recipe through it once more.  The result was 
perfection!  In the summer of 1919 they took Archie's new machine and his 
fabulous frozen custard recipe to Coney Island's boardwalk.
  
The first weekend they sold 18,460 cones at a nickel a piece - and the rest 
is history.   


   
(GOOGLE)
http://www.eastcoastcustard.com/history.htm
We discovered that, at Coney Island around 1920, vendors began using egg yolk 
in their vanilla ice cream to make it extra smooth and creamy. This popular 
concoction, called frozen custard, was enormously popular through the 
Depression and the War years because it was delicious and inexpensive. Problem was, 
real frozen custard was becoming increasingly hard to find since, by the 1960s, 
most custard makers, in an effort to increase profits, began lowering the cream 
(butterfat) content and increasing the amount of overrun (air) in their 
products  
      
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.frozencustardoutfitters.com/custard.html
Our frozen custard recipe, our own secret formula, is very simular to the 
Premium Ice Cream/Frozen Custard which was the rage on the  midway of Coney 
Island, New York in the mid 1920’s. It was served with customized ice-cream 
machines that have been in existence just as long (1921 to be exact) which we still 
offer you today. This special combination of recipe and machine, which we offer 
our distributors, allows you to make one of the finest frozen dessert 
products in the world.
     
(GOOGLE)
http://www.icsweets.com/
History of Custard

Perhaps the best-kept and tastiest secret is a variety of ice cream known as 
fresh frozen custard. Custard has become so popular that Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 
probably sells more fresh frozen custard than anywhere else and is known as 
the “Custard Capital of the World.” Fresh frozen custard originated on Coney 
Island in New York about 1919. Custard was first sold as a carnival treat. 
Because it tasted so good, it quickly grew in popularity. In the ensuing years, 
custard was being sold on the boardwalk of Atlantic City along with other East 
Coast resort communities. By 1932, the Kirckauf family of Lafayette, Indiana, 
discovered custard and opened their first stand in that city. This store is 
still in operation and is considered by most to be the oldest continuously 
operating custard stand in the country. In 1933, the promoters of the Chicago World’
s Fair decided to introduce fresh frozen custard for the fair. The product was 
an instant success and quickly found its way to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and 
spread throughout the Midwest. The popularity continues today and is growing 
farther to the south and west and virtually across the country. i.c. sweets is 
continuing the tradition today by bringing this quality fresh frozen custard 
dessert to Coeur d’Alene, Idaho. To our knowledge, this is the first frozen 
custard store of its kind in the Northwest.    
    

(GOOGLE)
http://www.pegadoes.com/history.html
Frozen custard is a form of ice cream made from old-fashioned ice cream 
recipes with a touch of egg yolk. In addition to the egg yolk, frozen custard is 
made in special machines so as not to whip as much air in as ice cream, making 
for a smoother, richer taste sensation. 
In the beginning...
There have been legends that frozen custard was created by an ice cream 
vender who added eggs to ice cream as an emulsifier to prevent the ice cream from 
melting too quickly.  To his delight and our gratitude today, a new premium ice 
cream had been discovered.  This ice cream  with it's richer taste and 
smoother texture became known as  frozen custard. Kohr Bros., in Charlottesville, 
Va., claims that its founder, Archie C. Kohr, invented the first frozen custard 
machine in 1919 and took it to Coney Island, where it's said 18,460 cones were 
sold in the first weekend.Venders soon took this treat across the country to 
carnivals and circuses.  Shortly after frozen custard stands were found on the 
east coast along the beaches and boardwalks.  By the 1940s there were 
hundreds of stands across the east coast and mid-west.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Oct 17 12:58:03 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:58:03 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002007bbb4d275e949@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.055803.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:

>
> Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on
> the Latinteach
> list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.)
> "woperson" for
> "woman,"

I thought it was "woperit", "woperson" also being
sexist.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 12:58:54 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:58:54 EDT
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.085854.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated >  Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:10:01 -0700, John McChesney-Young <
> panis at PACBELL.NET> stateth:


> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was not
> the word he chose.


Well, there's the play on words "ass-ociation" --> "mule-ociation"

             - Jim Landau


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Oct 17 13:22:23 2003
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:22:23 -0400
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002007bbb4d275e949@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.092223.0400.>

On Thursday 16 October 2003 07:09 pm, you wrote:

> In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only
> observe that the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken
> in, if that's the appropriate phrase for our common state of
> innocence.
>
> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student
> is
>
> >using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> >substitute for the word "ass"
>
> Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach
> list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for
> "woman," something I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
> - although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed
> otherwise.
>
> which still is enough to raise some folks'
>
> >hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
> >of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
> >extremes.
>
> I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether
> an attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a
> genuinely unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of
> some other motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it,
> I'm puzzled by its use in a serious high school assignment and I'd
> still be interested in reports of its non-colloquial use.


There's also a more (or less, depending on your perspective) innocuous
explanation.

Internet filtration software is notorious for being uselessly literal, so it
could well be an internet filter circumlocution. It's quite easy to imagine
some software product or another substituting '[expletive deleted]ociation'
for 'association' in its default setting.

--
bkd


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Oct 17 19:18:54 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:18:54 -0400
Subject: OED Monthly Access
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.151854.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see the OED is now offering monthly access to North and South
American users for $29.95 a month. While the annual rate ($295) is
still cheaper if you have continuous need for it, the monthly pass
might be good for short-term use. Maybe a writing holiday?

http://www.oed.com/subscribe/individuals-amer.html

Note that I am an employee of Oxford University Press, although not
hired to shill.

Cheers,

Grant


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 18:13:29 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:13:29 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
In-Reply-To: <2A1D494F.42F09A8D.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.141329.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 10/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>    The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at July 1939, and not a moment
> too soon for Halloween is perhaps the origin of "trick or treat."
>    It's a little long, but I'll type the whole thing.
>
>HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
> Calif.: Oct 30, 1938.                   p. A8 (1 page):
>_GETTING IN PRACTICE FOR NIGHT OF FUN_
>(Photo--ed.)
>(Photo caption--ed.)  Elio Martini, left, and Wendy Rough tie bicycle to
>post as prelude to Halloween.
>_HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED_
>_BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND_
>    "Trick or treat!" is the Halloween hijacking game hundreds of Southern
> California youngsters will play tomorrow night as they practice
> streamlined versions of traditional Allhallows Eve pranks.
>    The preparations are simple: a bar of soap, some old films and a
> couple of Times funny papers clipped into confetti.  From house to house
> the boys and girls will travel, punching doorbells with nerve-jangling peals.
>_TINY GOON SQUAD_
>    "Trick or treat!" is the terse command as the householder peeks warily
> around the door.  "If you don't give us something, we'll play a trick on
> you.  You wouldn't want your porch littered with paper, or your windows
> soaped, or a smelly roll of burning film left around, would you?"
>    So the diminutive Halloween goon squads are bought off with cookies,
> candy, tickless alarm clocks or the price of an ice cream cone.
>_SIGNBOARDS TARGET_
>    With election but a week away it will be a field night for the
> Halloween billboard artists.  The more subtle pranksters already have
> spotted all the wind socks in their vicinity and are stuffing shirts with
> rumpled papers, ready to be judiciously affixed to candidates'
> signboards.  Where no wind socks are available, a well blown-up paper bag
> will make an acceptable substitute.  Less imaginative of the costumed
> prowlers Monday night will be content to change the benign expressions of
> the pictured candidates with ferocious mustaches and beetle-browed frowns.
>_FEW GATES LEFT_
>    Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch
> on rooftops, loose kiddie cars and motor scooters can be hitched to
> doorknobs, trash baskets can be emptied on front lawns and flower pots
> can appear on chimneys.  Portable (Next column--ed.) signs that unwary
> filling station proprietors forget to take in always make good
> decorations for streetcars and city halls.
>    The automobile will be subjected to unusual hazards Halloween
> night.  If the windows escape a few "nerts" and "foos" scrawled in soap
> or paraffin, the owner is sure to find a shirt clothespinned to the radio
> aerial or a stack of tin cans tied on the axle.
>_DUMMIES PREPARED_
>    Of course, Halloween funsters are even now fixing lifelike dummies to
> be placed on busy thoroughfares just to give motorists a bad half-minute
> or to send police with sirens screaming to "investigate a dead body."
>    Pumpkins will never lose their appeal for the very young at Halloween
> time.  Although some of the jack-o'-lanterns now are lighted with
> flashlights and even wired for sound, most of the faces stick to the
> traditional toothy grins and triangles for eyes and noses.
>    It's a grumpy citizen indeed that won't be frightened into shrieks at
> the appearance of a little imp on Halloween night, attired in a spooky
> costume and carrying a lighted pumpkin and a rattling chain.
>
>
>("Nerts" and "foos"?...Greenwich Village has a big party.  For something
>really scary, dress up as a Chicago Cub--ed.)

I was also intrigued by "hijacking" and "goons"???


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 18:04:25 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:04:25 -0400
Subject: a-prefixing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.33.0310151431100.4871-100000@ux5.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.140425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sonja, it's still used by rural people in southeastern Ohio.  I expected it
to be used only by older people, and indeed a grad student of mine heard it
in interviews only from age 45+ informants; but she also got a 48% overall
positive response in a questionnaire given to 50 local high school students
(14% reported using it personally, and 34% knew others who used
it).  Another student got similar figures in a survey of age12-60+
informants in Portsmouth, Ohio, down on the Ohio River.  I can send you her
handout if you wish.

I have more results of grammar studies somewhere and will someday compile
all these for our region!  But the structure is definitely alive and well
in this fringe area of the Appalachian chain, so I would expect it to be
even more prevalent in the "core" of the mountains.  You might contact Kirk
Hazen and Clare Dannenberg to see what they've found.

At 02:33 PM 10/15/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was wondering
>what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is it
>no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
>younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?
>
>Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
>but I haven't found anything recent.
>
>Sonja Launspach
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Sonja Launspach
>Assistant Professor Linguistics
>Dept.of English & Philosophy
>Idaho State University
>Pocatello, ID 83209
>208-282-2478
>fax:208-282-4472
>email: sllauns at isu.edu


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 20:42:22 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:42:22 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.164222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops,

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Fri Oct 17 20:49:26 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:49:26 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.154926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Arnold:
I nominate mulemuleinated as the Republican word of the year.
It's so.... Succinct.


-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 6:10 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 03:35 PM, Yerkes, Susan wrote, replying to
john mcchesney-young's forwarding of a query about "muleociation" in a high
school student's writing:

> Sorry, but is this a joke?

there is the "heaveno" for "hello" business, so someone involved could have
meant this sort of seriously.  but it looks like a jocular coining to me; i
hear adolescent giggling.  of course, once coined, a word can spread in many
ways, and its origins can be lost.

> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
> student is using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some
> folks'
> hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
> sort
> of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum
> to
> extremes.

i think the person who thought this up should be mulemuleinated.

from the teacher:

> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
> head.

well, from *some* body part.

john:

> Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
> three
> places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a
> couple of others for developers of the open source version of
> Netscape's browser,
> Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":
>
> http://forum.teamxbox.com/
> showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
> threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
> http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate
> your tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as
> a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.

if you *really* want to pursue the matter, you could ask the writers of
these passages where they got the word and what they think they were
conveying by using it.  of course, they might not be willing to give you any
muleistance.

arnold


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From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 20:53:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:53:09 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.165309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I accidentally sent an almost empty version of this message a moment ago.  Sorry about that.  Especially since this version of the message is empty enough. . . .

The story on trick or treating Barry posted recently from the Los Angeles Times of Oct 30, 1938 alludes to the standard trick of rural boys of removing gates from their hinges and carrying them off.  "Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops. . . ."  Our country cousins, it seems, would also steal outhouses.  There is a very funny editorial cartoon by "Ding" Darling from FDR's first administration (I suppose his first) showing two rougish little boys labelled "Roosevelt" and (I think) "Hopkins" running off with an out-house labelled something or other, while a bewildered looking "John Q. Public" looked out its door.  The practice of "tricking" on Hallowe'en is old enough, and probably the practice of demanding treats, too.  The word has got to be older than so far traced.  In the mid/late 1940s, my mother dressed me up and took me about the neighbors to trick or treat, calling it that.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:43:43 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:43:43 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Pain in the Neck"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is another antedating posted by Ben Zimmer on alt.usage.english:

pain in the neck (OED 1924)

1911 _Wash. Post_ 8 Oct. E3  Aw, you pikers gimme a pain in the neck.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:46:44 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:46:44 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Soapbox"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194644.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ben Zimmer points out on alt.usage.english that OED has 1907 for the
figurative use of "soapbox" and 1918 for attributive usage, but that
ProQuest comes up with "soap-box orator" in _N.Y. Times_, 12 June 1906.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:41:48 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:41:48 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Third World"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED's first cite for the English phrase "Third World" is dated 1963.
The following ProQuest antedating has been posted by Ben Zimmer on
alt.usage.english:

1958 _Wash. Post_ 29 Jan. A18  The Third World. ... Following the war ...
many people began to look upon the world as divided into two parts -- the
Communist and the Western world.  So intense was our concentration on this
struggle that many of us failed to comprehend that a new third world had
been born. ...  This new world was born in Asia, in Africa, in the Near
East out of old colonial empires. ... Today, this third world challenges
our leadership, our energies, our own aspirations.  In this third world
arena, the great struggle for freedom and peace in our time is being
waged.

Zimmer also gives an antedating of "Second World" (OED 1974):

1966 _N.Y. Times_ 31 Aug. 42  Leaders and intellectuals in many countries
are also strongly attracted to the ideology of the Socialist or Communist
countries -- the so-called "Second World."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:57:06 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:57:06 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Sweet Sixteen"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.195706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has c1840 for "sweet sixteen."  Ben Zimmer presents the following from
ProQuest in an alt.usage.english posting:

1829 _The Ariel_ 16 May  Has it ever been your lot, To be troubled by a
score Of rather fair and pretty girls, Of sweet sixteen or more.

1831 _The Boquet_ 3 Nov.  The daughter at about 'sweet sixteen,' becomes
acquainted with a wandering, melancholy hypocondriac.

Zimmer also points out an occurrence of "sweet sixteen" _The Intellectual
Regale_ 30 Dec., but here it refers to the year 1816.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 18 00:15:14 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:15:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Of Color"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310171952410.15392-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.201514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has 1796 as its earliest usage for "people of colour" and 1803 for
"man of colour."  Evan Kirshenbaum has posted the following earlier
ProQuest citations on alt.usage.english:

"Using ProQuest I can push "man of colour" back to 1793:

    On the 17th of June, as the armed mulattoes were going out to Fort
    Picolet, they were met by feveral failors, who were in liquor, and
    one of them joftled againft one of the men of colour ; he
    immediately drew his dagger and wounded him ; and the reft of the
    failors immediately ftoned them, and they flew.

(Okay, they're long s's, not f's.)  (Except for the ones that are.)
That's from _Weekly Museum_, July 13, 1793, page 3.  (There are also
four hits from 1792, but they are multi-page articles and it's harder
to find the match.)"

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Oct 18 02:07:49 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:07:49 -0400
Subject: Fw: Syntactic blends
In-Reply-To: <007901c38cf9$8bd89c40$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.220749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, John Fitzpatrick wrote:

#>>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?
#
#"Up" seems to me to more of an intensifier, as in "revv up" and "wash
#up".  If you must find syntactic blending, my candidate would be "hole
#up", which is a synonym for "den up" but has a different meaning from
#simple "hole".

I *think* I've seen "den up" meaning just about what it seems to mean
here, i.e., 'make its home, establish a den'.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct 18 02:16:08 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:16:08 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.221608.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Marty Moss-Coane, host of Radio Times, a local interview-call in show on WHYY-FM, Phila.:
  "Schwarzenegger is very liberal on a lot of HIGH BUTTON issues...high..high intensity...uh...important...uh...big issues."
Her reaction was midway between those of other blenders described here:  instantly aware that she had not hit the cliche that she wanted, but unable--at least on mike--to find either "hot button" or "high profile".
Seán Fitzpatrick


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Oct 18 02:34:14 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:34:14 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <003501c39194$1b8cb760$32defea9@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.223414.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Clai Rice wrote:

#At what point does a blend cease to be a blend and become its own phrase?
#
#Google returns about 2,360 hits for "bunker down"; LexisNexis provides 350
#hits for "bunker down" AND NOT "golf" (to eliminate uses like the following:
#

Forgive me if I'm saying something already said in this thread, but what
with moving and all I'm now in the midst of catching up and ripping
through some 900 messages in my inbox. Has anyone suggested a possible
partial source for "bunker down" in "hunker down"?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 18 04:55:33 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:55:33 -0400
Subject: "Hot dog" (1871)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.005533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" 31:6 (9 Jan. 1871), p. 1, col. 9:

<<What's the difference between a chilly man and a hot dog? One wears a
great coat and the other pants.>>

(Compare in HDAS: [hot dog n. 1.] 1897 in _CoE_ (Nov. 1995) 18: "Brown's a
hot dog, isn't he?" "Yes, he has so many pants.")

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 18 06:02:51 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:02:51 -0400
Subject: Dog = frankfurter (1896, 1902)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.020251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Brooklyn Daily Eagle":

----------

10 May 1896: p. 19, col. 4:

<<It Was Dog of Some Kind.

<<  "I say, waiter, I don't know what to eat today. Can you give me a pointer?"

<<  "Frankfurters for one!" shouted the waiter, as he started for the
kitchen.>>

----------

26 July 1902: p. 18, col. 2:

<<Muzzles for Frankfurters

<<  The frankfurter at Coney must be muzzled, the Health Department
officials declare, and an order has been issued to all venders of the
sausage, requiring them to put a cover of some sort over them, while
cooking, in the future. ....>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 15:54:28 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:54:28 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.115428.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Online tomorrow, October 19:


THE VOCABULA REVIEW

October 2003 -- Vol. 5, No. 10

-----------------------------------------------------------------

IN THIS ISSUE

Harmless Drudges -- Julian Burnside
Making Peace in the Language Wars -- Bryan A. Garner
Telling It Slant -- Marylaine Block
Read Free! -- Eric Scheske
None Is or None Are? -- Frank E. Keyes, Jr.
A Feast of Halloween Puns -- Richard Lederer
rresponse tto jjoan ttaber altieri -- Peter Corey
Sound Off: Refuting Fiske and Halpern -- Michael Glazer, David Wilton, Bob
McHenry
Two Poems -- Frank Anthony
The Elder Statesman: My Life as an Owl, Part Uno -- Clark Elder Morrow
The Critical Reader: Replies to Michael Glazer, David Wilton, and Bob McHenry
-- Mark Halpern
The Last Word: The Gloomiest Trade -- Chris Orlet
Grumbling About Grammar
Elegant English
On Dimwitticisms
Clues to Concise Writing
Scarcely Used Words
Oddments and Miscellanea
On the Bookshelf
Letters to the Editor

-----------------------------------------------------------------

<A HREF="www.vocabula.com">www.vocabula.com</A>




Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 18 18:39:06 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:39:06 -0500
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.133906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:36 AM -0400 10/18/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote [re: Vocabula Review]:
>
>This link leads directly to a for-pay website. Do we allow this on ADS-L?
>
>In a message dated 9/21/03 11:33:30 AM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes:
[snip]

*****

    Every so often readers plug something in which they have a financial stake.
As long as the plug has relevant informative value and doesn't go
beyond the pale in some way, I'd suggest allowing the Vocabula
announcements.

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 17:45:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:45:19 EDT
Subject: "Hot dog" (1871)  (actually, 1870)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.134519.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just a minute as I try to recover from 11 hours of parking tickets.  I
can't even see.
   I've known about that citation for several years, but I hadn't posted it.
It's on Making of America.


Title: Varieties
Publication Info.: Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. /
Volume 4, Issue 79, Oct 1, 1870, pp.414-415
Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=3dd0f40dd13f99fcb63dda1bd9c95fdb;q1=hot%20dog%2A;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.079;view=image;seq=0447">Page 415</A>  - 1 term matching "hot dog*"
Col. 3:
   What's the difference between a chilly man and a hot dog?--One wears a
great-coat and the other pants.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 15:36:05 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:36:05 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.113605.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This link leads directly to a for-pay website. Do we allow this on ADS-L? 

In a message dated 9/21/03 11:33:30 AM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes:


> Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> Dictionary  by Mark Halpern
> 
> <A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp</A>
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Hartwell Fiske
> Editor and Publisher
> The Vocabula Review
> www.vocabula.com
> ______________________
> 
> The Vocabula Review
> A measly $8.95 a year
> www.vocabula.com
> ______________________
> 
> The Vocabula Review
> 10 Grant Place
> Lexington, MA 02420
> United States
> Tel: (781) 861-1515
> 
> 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 00:27:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:27:28 -0400
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.202728.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."

THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
FOUR WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
FOUR WAYS TILL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
FOUR WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
FIVE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
FIVE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--1 Google hit
SIX WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--317 Google hits
SIX WAYS TILL SUNDAY--191 Google hits
SIX WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--18 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--25 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--37 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS TILL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
NINE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
NINE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--17 Google hits
NINE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
TEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
TEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--16 Google hits
TEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits


(PROQUEST)
American Banker (pre-1997 Fulltext). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1987. Vol. 152, Iss. 99;  pg. 17
(...)
    He added, "We tested it with computer simulations five ways till Sunday to make sure it was for real."


(FACTIVA)
 House speaker coordinates the paper chase by color Series:   PEOPLE & POLITICS
 TIM NICKENS; LUCY MORGAN; BILL MOSS; DAVID DAHL
718 words
9 April 1989
 St. Petersburg Times
 CITY
 2B
(...)
 ``You can ask it six ways 'til Sunday and I'm not going to give you the answer that you're looking for,`` said Nelson. ``I'm going to give the answer that I want to give. Attitude. Leadership. Innovative solutions. Restraint in spending, so that you can put your resources where they need to be in order to fulfill your potential.``


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Oct 19 00:51:13 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:51:13 -0400
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
In-Reply-To: <632B0246.17AA45B8.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.205113.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 08:27:28PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."
>
> THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
> THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits

[etc.]

We have an example from 1933, if you want to go as high as "FORTY"
and allow for "FROM" instead of the "till" variants.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Sun Oct 19 01:00:53 2003
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:00:53 -0700
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.180053.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All:

Has anybody ever seen "all ways till Sunday"?
Anne G

>    I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."
>
> THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
> THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS TILL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--1 Google hit
> SIX WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--317 Google hits
> SIX WAYS TILL SUNDAY--191 Google hits
> SIX WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--18 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--25 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--37 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS TILL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
> NINE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> NINE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--17 Google hits
> NINE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> TEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
> TEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--16 Google hits
> TEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
>
>
> (PROQUEST)
> American Banker (pre-1997 Fulltext). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1987. Vol.
152, Iss. 99;  pg. 17
> (...)
>     He added, "We tested it with computer simulations five ways till
Sunday to make sure it was for real."
>
>
> (FACTIVA)
>  House speaker coordinates the paper chase by color Series:   PEOPLE &
POLITICS
>  TIM NICKENS; LUCY MORGAN; BILL MOSS; DAVID DAHL
> 718 words
> 9 April 1989
>  St. Petersburg Times
>  CITY
>  2B
> (...)
>  ``You can ask it six ways 'til Sunday and I'm not going to give you the
answer that you're looking for,`` said Nelson. ``I'm going to give the
answer that I want to give. Attitude. Leadership. Innovative solutions.
Restraint in spending, so that you can put your resources where they need to
be in order to fulfill your potential.``
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:11:53 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:11:53 -0400
Subject: You can't win 'em all (1886, 1919, 1922)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.211153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Unless you're the cursed Yankees.  I had posted 1926.



(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
      NATIONALS SURPRISE TRIBE WITH NINTH-INNING VICTORY
       By J.V. FITZ GERALD..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 16, 1919.                   p. 10 (1 page)
   Cleveland.  Aug. 15.--Cleveland can't win 'em all in the ninth.
(J. V. Fitz Gerald is the brother of John J. Fitz Gerald, of "Big Apple" fame--ed.)

      Nats Oppose Mackmen Today
       By FRANK H. YOUNG..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 23, 1926.                   p. 13 (1 page):
   "WELL, we can't win 'em all," said Manager Bucky Haris yesterday after his team had lost its twelfth game in the last seventeen starts, thus showing that our boy leader still has a keen sense of humor.


(PROQUEST--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      PEN POINTS
       The Staff.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 1, 1922.                   p. II4 (1 page):
   Speaking of the local football games, we can't win 'em all.

      PEN POINTS
       The Staff.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 5, 1923.                   p. II4 (1 page) :
   However, the season of the Pacific Coast League is young.  We can't win 'em all.


(PROQUEST--NEW YORK TIMES)
      DETROIT BADLY HANDLED
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1886.                   p. 2 (1 page):
   CHICAGO, July 8.--The Detroit Baseball Club may win two games out of its three with Chicago, but it can't win them all, for Chicago took one to-day.

      TIGERS BEAT YANKS AS 42,712 LOOK ON
       Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 4, 1924.                   p. 8 (1 page):
   DETROIT, Aug. 3.--The Yankees can't win them all, but they certainly can draw more people to a fenced-in area than any other traveling attraction listed under the head of amusement.

      YANKEES STOPPED BY ATHLETICS, 8-3
       By JAMES R. HARRISON.Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 4, 1926.                   p. 33 (1 page):
   PHILADELPHIA, Pa., May 3.--You can't win them all, and the Yankees are no exception to this old time rule.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:34:25 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:34:25 -0400
Subject: Seven ways from Sunday (1920)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.213425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More ways than one.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
      Pete's Close Shave
       By Arthur L. Dahl.       Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine (1868-1935).       San Francisco: Nov 1920.       Vol. LXXVI, Iss. No 5.;             p. 70 (3 pages):
Pg. 71:  "Now, you spavin-legged, chicken-livered cur, you listen to me.  You think you're a butcher, do you, and everybody's your meat, do you?  You're not; you're a contemptible, cowardly barber, that's what you are, and you're going to give me the cleanest shave I ever had, or I'll lick you seven ways from Sunday.  Here's the razor.  It's too sharp to pull, so get busy," and the cook seated himself fearlessly on the chair he had provided.


(PROQUEST--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      CLASHES MARK RAIL HEARINGS.
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1922.                   p. I7 (1 page):
   "As for propaganda, you can beat the railways seven ways from Sunday on spreading propaganda."

      FIRPO DIRECTED BY CABLEGRAM
       HARRY NEWMAN.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 29, 1923.                   p. III1 (1 page) :
   Horatio Lavalle, imported from the Argentine to succeed Jimmy Deforest as handler-in-chief of the young giant who hopes to knock Jack Dempsey seven ways from Sunday at the  Polo Grounds on September 14, steps out every day when Firpo starts his workout and keeps a detailed record on everything Luis does.

      Along El Camino Real With Ed-Ainsworth
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 28, 1936.                   p. 10 (1 page):
   It has the other ones skinned seven ways from Sunday.


(PROQUEST--CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR)
      Wilson Pins Resignation On By-Passing by Truman
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Apr 28, 1952.                   p. 16 (1 page):
   Charles  E. WIlson says he resigned as national defense mobilization director in March because he was by-passed "nine ways from Sunday" in wage-price negotiations and embarrassed by a sudden switch of presidential decisions in the steel dispute.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:41:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:41:36 -0400
Subject: Nine ways from Sunday (1832)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.214136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(LITERATURE ONLINE--PROSE)
1.  Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]
 The Book of Saint Nicholas. Translated from the Original Dutch of Dominie Nicholas Aegidius Oudenarde [pseud] (1836) 414Kb
 The Book of Saint Nicholas. Translated from the Original Dutch of Dominie Nicholas Aegidius Oudenarde [pseud] 411Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 376Kb
 COBUS YERKS. 27Kb
...said, looked at least nine ways from Sunday. His teeth were...

2.  Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]
 Westward Ho! , Volume 2 (1832) 377Kb
 Westward Ho! , Volume 2 374Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 338Kb
 CHAPTER XIII. 18Kb
...a compass that pointed nine ways from Sunday. Page 144. Don't...


(LITERATURE ONLINE--DRAMA)
Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]  / Paulding, William I. (William Irving), 1825-1890 [Author Record]
 Antipathies; Or, The Enthusiasts By The Ears (1847) 248Kb
  ANTIPATHIES;  OR,  THE ENTHUSIASTS BY THE EARS. 246Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 245Kb
 ACT V. 56Kb
 SCENE IV. 27Kb
...and making them look nine ways from Sunday ---debauching morals---kicking up...


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Oct 19 15:44:11 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:44:11 -0500
Subject: "Big Apple" Origin--Gotham Center FAQ item is erroneous
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.104411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Members of the American Dialect Society (with cc. to the Gotham Center):

   And the beat goes on. The latest blunder in the treatment of origin
of  "The Big Apple" comes from the Gotham Center. If the compiler of
the  FAQ item there would like to contact me, I'll be happy to answer
any questions in this regard.

    Meanwhile, the "whore etymology" is a hoax; its credibility is
zero. The only defensible etymology is the one which sees turf writer
John J. Fitz Gerald as the popularizer of the sobriquet, with due
credit given by him to two "dusky" (i.e., African-American)
stable-hands in New Orleans. There is, as far as I know, no scholarly
debate on the subject. The only disagreement comes from people who
are *not* scholars, i.e., they have not researched the issue, they
show no signs of having seen Barry Popik's convincing evidence and
have certainly not refuted it.

     Bibliographic references on the subject are:

1) Cohen, Gerald. _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big
Apple"_ ( = Forum Anglicum, vol. 19), Frankfurter am Main: Peter
Lang, 1991. -- (does not yet contain Barry Popik's evidence; this
comes in the subsequent articles)

2) Cohen, Gerald 1993a.  'Update #1 on "The Big Apple"' (with
considerable information from Barry Popik). in: _Studies in Slang_
(ed.: Gerald Cohen), part III.  Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang.
pp.132-151.
3) Cohen, Gerald 1993b. 'The Origin of NYC's Nickname "The Big
Apple"'.  in _Names_ (Journal of the American Name Society) vol. 41,
pp.23-28.  This article is a slight revision of my 1992 Presidential
address to the American Name Society.
4) Cohen, Gerald 1993c. ' Update #2 on "The Big Apple"'.  in:
_Studies in Slang_ (ed.: Gerald Cohen), part IV.  (The information is
primarily from Barry Popik.)   Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang. pp.141-160.

      See _Morning Telegraph_, Dec. 1, 1926, p.11, rightmost column,
"In the Paddock with John J. Fitz Gerald" (spotted by Barry Popik):
"So many people have asked the writer about the derivation of his
phrase, 'the big apple,' that he is forced to make another
explanation."
     Note: "HIS phrase."

----The Gotham Center treatment is:
>http://gothamcenter.org/faq.shtml
>
>Why is New York called  the "Big Apple"?
>
>There is essentially no agreement on an answer to this question.
>What one scholar will propose as authoritative, another will dismiss
>entirely. Some trace the name to horse racing, others to NYC's past
>prostitutes... Many explanations seem plausible and none seems
>certain.
>

Gerald Cohen
Professor of German and Russian
Editor, Comments on Etymology
University of Missouri-Rolla
Rolla, MO 65409


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 19 21:17:27 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:17:27 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Torpedo (sandwich) 1950
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.171727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since I found "hero" sandwich I think I'm on a roll.

So, from the Newport(RI) Daily News, March 10, 1950:

<A classified ad>

          EXCLUSIVE! Torpedo Sandwich, a meal in itself.  "It's  the Talk of
the Town."  Cafe 200. Pizzaphone 232.

SC

Actually, I'm not sure if I'm antedating anything.  No one seems to care to
list this sandwich.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 00:01:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:01:00 -0400
Subject: Torpedo Sandwich; Riiight; Socialite
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.200100.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I wrote to the City Council Speaker to repeal "Big Apple Corner."  The disgrace must be complete.
   Yesterday, I walked out of the NYU Bobst Library and saw the police vehicles.  Someone jumped from an apartment window.  A third death.  I'm a little depressed right now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TORPDO

   I told Sam that this was a nice find.  I've traced "submarine" to Delaware, and Ancestry has NO Delaware newspapers.  I've been waiting for the Delaware newspapers and the BROOKLYN EAGLE, but Sam's sandwich research is still welcome.


      Mrs. Russell Cruikshank Dies; Civic Leader in Brooklyn, 75
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1964.                   p. 36 (1 page):
(...)   Although she was active in many philanthropic and civic organizations in Brooklyn and gave her energies to historical and patriotic societies, Mrs. Cruikshank probably considered the time she devoted to the Navy Street Canteen during World War II as the most rewarding period.
   It was during this service that she learned about culinary tastes, living habits and social mores of a variety of servicemen.  She was one of three women who organized the canteen before Pearl Harbor in an abandoned schoolhouse at Navy and Concord Streets, near the New York Naval Shipyard.
      _Lesson From Sailors_
   Mrs. Cruikshank once recalled her shock at learning about new foods.  "I'd like a torpedo sandwich, please," a sailor asked during the early days of the canteen.
   She was stumped and admitted it.  but she made it her business to find out what it was.  Thereafter, no request for a torpedo sandwich stymied her.  She knew that it consisted of a long French bread slit lengthwise and crammed with all the things that a serviceman's peculiar tastes sought. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RIGHT

   Someone used "riight," so I'll get right to it.  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG doesn't record it.

RIIGHT--5,930 Google hits
RIIIGHT--18,200 Google hits
RIIIIGHT--19,900 Google hits
RIIIIIGHT--12,000 Google hits
RIIIIIIGHT--6,390 Google hits
RIIIIIIIGHT--3,860 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIGHT--2,310 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIIGHT--1,680 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIIIGHT--1,220 Google hits

     There are tons of bad hits.  There's this, which doesn't seem right.

      ABOUT LONG ISLAND
       Francis X. Clines.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 19, 1979.                   p. LI2 (1 page):
   Often they seem to react to all sorts of things only by smiling and shouting "All riiight!" and applauding in that rock-concert way with their hands above their heads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOCIALITE

   My wife, Paris Hilton, has asked me to do "socialite."  OED has 1928, and I can't seem to beat it.  I see in the ADS-L archives that the coinage was credited to TIME magazine.  Unfortunately, that's not digitized.
   (OT:  Her sister, Hanoi Hilton, is a pain.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 20 00:33:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:33:58 -0400
Subject: Torpedo Sandwich; Riiight; Socialite
In-Reply-To: <214CADF4.74A6B2CE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.203358.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    My wife, Paris Hilton, has asked me to do "socialite."  OED has 1928,
> and I can't seem to beat it.  I see in the ADS-L archives that the
> coinage was credited to TIME magazine.  Unfortunately, that's not
> digitized.

This is a quintessential Time-ism.  The 1928 citation in OED was
contributed by me; at the time I looked carefully in Time for the earliest
occurrence there of the word.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 01:48:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:48:44 -0400
Subject: Craisins (1987); Stupidmarket
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.214844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     A browse through rec.food.cooking produced these.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRAISINS

   There are over 5,000 Google "craisins" hits.  It seems generic, but there's a trademark here.

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 CRAISINS
 Goods and Services
(CANCELLED) IC  029.  US 046.  G & S: SUGAR INFUSED DRIED CRANBERRIES.  FIRST USE: 19870615.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19870615
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73706282
 Filing Date
January 19, 1988
 Published for Opposition
 July 26, 1988
 Registration Number
1509407
 Registration Date
October 18, 1988
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) OCEAN SPRAY CRANBERRIES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 225 WATER STREET PLYMOUTH MASSACHUSETTS 02360
 Attorney of Record
NEIL F. BRYSON
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD
 Cancellation Date
April 24, 1995

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STUPIDMARKET

   Since about 2000, one poster and then others to rec.food.cooking have been using "stupidmarket."  It sounds stupid to me.
   "Stupormarket" is much less frequent.
   I searched with the word "cooking" to avoid the Wall Streeters.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Miche (micheinnz at yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: What Do You Call Your Food Store?
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
Date: 2002-03-16 11:23:51 PST
In article <b7579us3kdv03natoqv0i2088c7a3eucag at 4ax.com>, Damsel in dis
Dress <damselicious at bigfoot.com.INVALID> wrote:

> Just wondering what people call the store where they buy their groceries.
> Until I started hanging out in RFC, I'd only heard the word, "market," to
> describe grocery stores on TV or in movies.  Same with supermarket.  I'm
> wondering if this is regional.
>
> I live in Minnesota, and call it the grocery store, or just The Store.
> What do you call it (and where do you live)?

New Zealand.  Supermarket, supermarchet, stupidmarket, stupormarket.
Heard and use 'em all.

Miche


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Kool-Aid Recipe
 ... And, the equipment is still ok to use for cooking afterwards ... said, We have to stop
 at (listed 3 stupid markets), WHY sa Henry who hates stupid market more than ...
rec.crafts.textiles.yarn - Sep 9, 1995 by WHEATCARR at delphi.com - View Thread (1 article)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Jello Pudding Chillers Recipe
 ... I saw the "Jello pudding" recipe - at the prices my local stupidmarket charges for ... Here's
 hoping we never forget that cooking can be done from real ingredients ...
misc.consumers.frugal-living - Aug 1, 1996 by Who? What? Huh? - View Thread (6 articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 02:03:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:03:02 -0400
Subject: Adirondack Steak (1885)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.220302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   DARE has 1954.  I forgot to correct DARE on this one.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
      Article 5 -- No Title
              Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930).       New York: Aug 20, 1885.       Vol. VOL. XXV., Iss. No. 4.;             p. 66 (1 page):
   A St. Regis Lake correspondent of the Troy _Budget_ writes from the Prospect House:  "At breakfast you can have brook trout, also venison, but at this season of the year they call it Adirondack steak or mountain goat. (...)"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 02:28:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:28:22 -0400
Subject: Irish Turkey (1904); Red Mike and Violets (1925)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.222822.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   DARE has 1926 for "Irish turkey."  The HDAS volume H-O is missing here at NYU, and I don't know what it has for "red mike and violets."


      CHUCK STRIKES A NEW GRAFT
              The National Police Gazette (1845-1906).       New York: Jul 23, 1904.       Vol. VOLUME LXXXV, Iss. No. 1406.;             p. 3 (1 page):
   I'd been better off if I'd let it go at dat an' stuck ter de Irish turkey--ah, corned beef, ain't yer on?--wot Her Nobs hands out reg'lar.

 Matter of Food.
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Mar 24, 1907.                   p. SM2 (1 page):
   "If corned beef is Irish turkey, what is macaroni?"
   "Ginney-hen."

      Corned Beef Favorite Dinner in New York
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 15, 1925.                   p. 1 (1 page):
   New York, June 14 (by A. P.).--Corned beef and cabbage is the favorite dinner dish of most New Yorkers, if the poll just completed by the United Restaurant Owners association gave an accurate picture of the metropolitan appetite.
   Of the 180,000 votes cast, "Red Mike and Violets," as the succulent dish is known in less ornate caravansaries, led with more than 23,000.  Second on the list of preferences was "vegetable dinner," with 18,549, while third place went to veal cutlet and fourth to Lond Island duckling.

      Letters to the Editor
       NORMAN C. PAULSON, Washington..       The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 2, 1967.                   p. C6 (1 page):
   Alas and alack for all the hymns to "red mike and violets" and "Irish turkey," corned beef and cabbage is not now and never was an Irish dish.  Its origins are as American as apple pie and as Yankee as the clambake.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:18:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:18:16 -0400
Subject: Chicago Chicken (1931, 1933, 1934)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.231816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The RHHDAS has 1942 for "Chicago chicken."  The CDS has "1940s."
   OT:  Don't choke the Chicago chicken.



      I Helping the Homemaker 11
       By LOUISE BENNETT WEAVER,.       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1931.                   p. 9 (1 page)
Chicago Chicken for Dinner. (...)
Chicago Chicken, serving 6.
(The recipe is here, but it's illegible on this computer--ed.)

Today's Menu
       Marian Manners.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 23, 1933.                   p. A5 (1 page):
   CHICAGO CHICKEN LEGS
   One pound pork steak, one pound veal steak, one-half cup flour, four tablespoonfuls fat, three tablespoonfuls chopped onions, three tablespoonfuls chopped green peppers, three tablespoonfuls chopped celery, one teaspoonful salt, one-quarter teaspoonful paprika, two-thirds cupful water.
   Have butcher cut steaks into one-inch pieces.  Alternate pork and veal pieces on wooden or metal skewers, seven or eight pieces on each skewer.  Roll "chicken" in flour.  Heat fat, add and brown meat mixture.  Add rest of ingredients.  Cover and bake one hour in moderate oven.  Baste frequently, turn to allow the meat even cooking.  Gravy may be made after meat has been removed from frying pan.

      "Chicago Chicken" Features Dinner for Five Persons
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1934.                   p. A6 (1 page):
   "CHICAGO CHICKEN"
1 pound Cudahy veal steak
1 pound pork steak
1/3 cup flour
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon paprika
2 tablespoons chopped onions
2 tablespoons chopped celery
5 skewers
2/3 cup water
   Have steak cut half an inch thick and then into one-inch squares.  Alternate squares of pork and veal on skewers.  Sprinkle with flour, salt and paprika.  Arrange in buttered baking dish.  Add rest of ingredients, cover and bake fifty minutes in moderate oven.  Turn "chicken" frequently to allow even browning.  Remove lid and brown five minutes.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:30:14 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:30:14 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.233014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a cot," meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE SQUARES)."
   Not to be confused with three hot men/women and a cot.  That just wouldn't work on a cot.


DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
       By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969.                   p. 51 (1 page):
   For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his room and board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:59:25 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:59:25 -0400
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.235925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
   Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next "Bloopies"--but probably not.


      TIGERS SCORE FOUR IN SEVENTH TO BEAT SENATORS IN OPENER, 4-1
       ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 2, 1925.                   p. B1 (2 pages):
Pg. 2:  _"BEEFING" PARTY_
   The Senators bunched around Ump Schmidt for a little "beefing" party, but nothing in the way of punches took place.  In fact, it was none other than Mr. Eckert, himself, who provided the next punch, a one-base "blooper" rap over the drawn-in Solon infield that brought both O'Shea and Whitney over the rubber and clinched the tilt.

      LAZERRE'S FORTY-THIRD HOMER TIES COAST MARK
       ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1925.                   p. 9 (2 pages):
Pg. 1:  Piercy hurled a magnificent game holding the Tigers to one hit, a blooper single by Jackie Warner in the sixth frame, for eight frames.

      WARFARE ON BLOOPERS IS NOW WAGED
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 14, 1926.                   p. B9 (1 page):
   Warfare against bloopers is declared!  With the terrific demonstration of blooping fresh in the minds of all listeners who attempted to receive foreign stations during the International Radio Week tests just concluded, the campaign announced by the Radio Digest should meet with instant success.
(...)  ...to reduce radiation or blooping to a minimum.

(All other cites until 1939 appear to be from sports.  I'll keep checking--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Oct 20 04:32:36 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:32:36 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
In-Reply-To: <27FA9C95.2B85F35B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.003236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my own recollection (not necessarily representative) the usual version
in the 1960's was "three hots and a flop" = "three hot meals and a place to
sleep". I think this slogan may have been associated with some kind of
conservation make-work during the Depression, but when I heard it it
referred either to a stint in the Armed Forces or to some minimal
employment providing the bare necessities. To me it seems that the version
with "cot" was a later "improved" version (maybe "flop" = "sleeping place"
had become obsolescent?).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 06:50:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:50:40 EDT
Subject: Baltimore's "lemon sticks"
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.025040.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I gotta catch a bus to Washington, DC.
   Does anyone have a decent early citation or a detailed explanation for
Baltimore's "lemon sticks"?
   This is a genuine regional American food.


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Oct 20 11:12:00 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:12:00 +0100
Subject: Chicago Chicken (1931, 1933, 1934)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.121200.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW the refs to 'Chicago chicken' in HDAS and CDS are not to the
recipe/dish of the same name as cited by Barry, although of course since
pork is one of the ingredients that there may be some link. The term in
slang is a 'satirical' euph. for salt pork, based on the city's meat-packing
industry; other porcine 'chickens' include 'Cincinnati chicken' (another
meat-packing city, known as 'Porkopolis' before Chicago took over),
'Arkansas chicken' and 'Georgia chicken', although the 'joke' in these
latter duo presumably refers to the consumption of pork rather than to its
processing.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 15:14:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:14:02 -0400
Subject: Arnie's Army (8 April 1962)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.111402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is it?  A small mention almost buried in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE?


   8 April 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 1-C, col. 5:
_Arnie to seek record today,_
_but tournament comes first_
By JERRY SANDERS
Chronicle-Herald Writer
(...)(Col. 7--ed.)
   With Palmer maintaining "go" condition, "Arnie's Army" swelled to record proportions as more than 40,000 fans swarmed over the sprawling Augusta National course.  He said, however, the crowds did not bother him.  "All I could see was people," said Palmer, grinning like a recruiting officer.

   6 April 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 10-A, col. 2:
_"Day late, dollar short"--Arnie_
   Arnold Palmer, a smile creasing his face, looked up and answered:
   "Yeh, that was a little better at 18 today than it was the last time, but it was day late and a dollar short.  Isn't that the saying?"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 15:40:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:40:03 -0400
Subject: Orange Donuts (1937), Dunking Donuts (1938)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.114003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DUNKING DONUTS

   So movie star Mae Murray invented dunking donuts, eh?  Where is her name in this Los Angeles newspaper story?


   29 October 1938, LOS ANGELES EVENING HERALD AND EXPRESS, pg. A8, col. 6:
_Hollywoodites Get in_
_Dunking Argument_
   The great doughnut dunking controversy has now winged itself all the way across the continent, and Hollywood is pretty badly split on the subject.
   It all began in Boston, of all places, when Mrs. Gertrude Binney Kay, head of the Emerson College drama department, told a class in social usages that it was all right to dunk at an informal house party or afternoon theater snack, but even then:
   "It is never correct unless you hold the doughnut between the thumb and third finger of the right hand.  All other forms are crude."
   Emily Post, famous social arbiter, asserted that it was inconsequential how the doughnut was held, but added: "Do not dip it too far or spread it too wide."
   Irene Dunne, whose doughtnuts won a country fair prize when she was a girl in Indiana, does not regard the act of dunking as important in itself.
   "A good doughnut's flavor is impaired by saturation in coffee," she said.  "I don't think it really matters what is done to a bad one."
   Dorothy Lamour said she saw no reason why persons shouldn't dunk as long as they didn't splash.
   "In my opinion," she said, "excitable persons should never dunk.  For those who can manipulate a doughnut gracefully with chopsticks, I think the custom is unobjectionable."
   Stuart Erwin, queried in New York where he is making a picture, wired:
   "Constitution throws guarantees (Col. 7--ed.) around those who want to dunk stop This is still a free country."

---------------------------------------------------------------
ORANGE DONUTS

   Orange donuts are often served at Halloween.
   It might also be a regional dish.  Round Rock Donuts of Round Rock, Texas, claims to be making them since 1926:

http://www.roundrockdonuts.com/

   For what it's worth, here's a recipe.

   28 October 1938, LOS ANGELES EVENING HERALD AND EXPRESS, pg. B-10, col. 2:
_Here Is Recipe for_
_Orange Doughnuts_
   From the home economics department maintained by the manufacturers of the new, pure, triple-creamed all-vegetable shortening, comes this brand new recipe for orange flavored doughnuts.  Just in time for Halloween!  They are made with fresh California orange juice.  They are crisp and tender and not a bit greasy.
      _ORANGE DOUGHNUTS_
   To four cups of sifted all-purpose flour, add one and one-fourth teaspoonfuls of salt, three-fourths spoonfuls of baking soda and one-half teaspoonful of cream of tartar and sift again.
   Cream two tablespoonfuls of triple-creamed, all-vegetable shortening with three and one-half teaspoonfuls of grated orange rind and one cup of sugar until well blended.  Add four egg yolks that have been well beaten or two whole eggs and one yolk, if preferred.  Mix well.
   Squeeze juice from two oranges (Col. 3--ed.) into measuring cup, then add enough water to make three-fourths of a cup.  Add this to the creamed mixture gradually; blend well.  Add sifted dry ingredients; mix until smooth.  This makes a very soft dough, but it can be handled as follows:
   With as little handling as possible roll the dough on a floured pastry board or canvas to three-eighths inch thickness.  Let dough stand 20 minutes.  Cut with well-floured 2 1/2-inch doughnut cutter.  Cut all doughnuts before starting to fry.
   Fry in deep, hot all-vegetable shortening that is hot enough to turn a cube of bread golden brown in 60 seconds (375 degrees F.) until brown, turning when first crack appears.  Drain on absorbent paper.
   Rub two teaspoonfuls of grated orange rind into one-half cup of granulated sugar with finger tips.  Dust doughnuts with this orange sugar.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Oct 20 17:13:03 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:13:03 -0400
Subject: I no verbs
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.131303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a sig file on another email list:

First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing
weirds language.
Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no
verbs.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 18:41:23 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:41:23 EDT
Subject: "jumping the shark"
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.144123.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from Time magazine, available on-line at URL <A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031027-524470,00.html">
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031027-524470,00.html</A>
the story is dated "Monday, Oct 27, 2003", apparently the official date of 
the issue in which it will appear.

<begin quote>
When the Shark Bites
by Nadia Mustafa

Ratings for the broadcast networks have taken another tumble this fall — down 
an overall 3% from last season. And it's not just new shows that are having 
trouble; a surprising number of old favorites have slipped badly. Frasier has 
dropped 21%; Will & Grace is down 16%; and even CBS's hot CSI fell 11%. Nor can 
it all be blamed on the unusually high ratings for the baseball play-offs. In 
times like these, TV fans are reminded of the famous Happy Days episode in 
which Fonzie jumped over a shark while water skiing in the Pacific Ocean. At 
that instant, even the biggest Happy Days fan knew the show would never be the 
same. Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a series 
hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.
<end quote>
    
    


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 20 18:48:28 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:48:28 -0700
Subject: "jumping the shark"
In-Reply-To: <114.2a4a46d4.2cc58653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.114828.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:41 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> from Time magazine...
>
> ... Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a
> series
> hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.

a recent book is devoted entirely to a catalogue of television shows
and the moments when they jumped the shark.

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 20 18:54:04 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:54:04 -0400
Subject: "jumping the shark"
In-Reply-To: <FE5C1A3F-032D-11D8-9C0E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.145404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:41 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>>from Time magazine...
>>
>>... Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a
>>series
>>hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.
>
>a recent book is devoted entirely to a catalogue of television shows
>and the moments when they jumped the shark.
>
>arnold

There's also a web site, www.jumptheshark.com, that's been around for years.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 19:00:24 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:00:24 -0400
Subject: That Windy City (9 May 1876); Chicago Tribune
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.150024.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHICAGO TRIBUNE

   I e-mailed ProQuest's Chris Cowan again, sending him "trick or treat."  If the 1890s are readable, could he give me a Chicago "sundae"?
   Nope.
   The _entire_ CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization has been delayed until next year.

  Subj:    RE: "Trick or Treat" from Los Angeles Times (1938)
  Date:    10/20/2003 10:49:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "Cowan, Christopher" <christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com>
  To:    "'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)


Hi, Barry,  Thanks for the "find."

As for the Trib, it is not searchable in our database and won't be until the spring of 2004.

Chris
Chris Cowan
Vice President, Publishing
ProQuest Information & Learning
300 N. Zeeb Road
Ann Arbor, MI  48106-1346
Ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204
Ph: 734-975-6204
Fax: 734-975-6271

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at aol.com [mailto:Bapopik at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 2:13 PM
To: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com
Subject: "Trick or Treat" from Los Angeles Times (1938)


Dear Mr. Cowan,

   You might be interested in knowing that the LOS ANGELES TIMES has given us our first "trick or treat."
    I'm sorry about the delay in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  The poor quality of the microfilm is something I've experienced all too often.  If the 1890s amd 1900s are readable, is there a "sundae" + "ice cream" citation?
    Happy Halloween.

Barry Popik
New York, NY

---------------------------------------------------------------
THAT WINDY CITY

   It's earlier.
   No matter what happens, though, the Chicago Public Library's web page still retains the 1893 World's Fair myth.  DO THEY STILL NOT BELIEVE ME?  DON'T PEOPLE IN CHICAGO DESERVE TO KNOW THIS?
   Do I charge too much (free) for my work?


   15 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   NONE of the obnoxious office-holders in Chicago have been murdered as yet.  Two or three Committees are thought to be preparing ropes and selecting lamp-posts, but the "probabilities" for the region may be summed up as follows: "Calm, with occasional newspaper gusts."

   17 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 2:
   GARDEN CITY GROWLERS.

   28 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 4:
   The Bristow Bazoo at the Garden City.

   8 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   THERE was a little tornado in Chicago on Saturday, but it spent itself mostly on churches.  All the other buildings in Chicago were so heavily weighed down with mortgages that no whirlwind could affect them.

   9 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
   _THAT WINDY CITY._
_Some of the Freaks of the Last Chicago_
      _Tornado._
   [From Yesterday's Times.]
   The traditional fickleness of the wind was shown in strange odjects on which it exerted its force.


(It is not clear what "Yesterday's Times" is, but column six has a story from "New York Correspondence Chicago Times"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 19:34:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:34:46 -0400
Subject: Windy City (13 May 1876)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.153446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's also, very clearly, a few days later.


   13 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1:
   _CHICAGO LETTER._
_The Sad Story of a Base-Ball Tour--How_
   _the "Cincinnatis" Took their Punish-_
   _ment._
Special Correspondence of the Enquirer.
      CHICAGO, May 11, 1876.
   When the Red Stockings left Cincinnati for Chicago Tuesday morning they never dreamed they were going three hundred miles to get "skunked."
(...)
(Col. 2--ed.)
   The trouble was not with the boys, but with the chairs.  The latter had been cut out for slimmer people than base-ball men, and fit too tightly.  There was no time to lose, however, in prying off chairs, and the boys all started trainward, chairs and all.  Only the plucky nerve of the eating-house keeper rescued the useful seats from a journey to the Windy City.


(I was told that the Library of Congress is missing the 1876 CINCINNATI ENQUIRER volume before this one--ed.)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 20 20:02:17 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:02:17 -0700
Subject: conscience raising
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.130217.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i came across this on rec.gardens just now:
   Fortunately, many, many people in my age bracket 45-50 are coming into
   this age from growing up in the 60s, where conscience raising was
prevalent.

surely this started out as "consciousness raising".  but now i see
hundreds of examples from google.

this is something that could easily have been an intentional coining or
an unconscious (!) reshaping, and in either case it could have happened
many times independently.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 00:42:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:42:16 -0400
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926) -(an antedating)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.204216.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

I just did ancestry.com from 1925-1910.  There was NO antedating of the
baseball useage you found in 1926, nor was there any hint of a "mistake" on
radio.

There WAS a 1924 hit for the meaning of a radio set that interfers with
normal radio broadcasts.   It was from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, Nov.
8, 1924, page 8, column 4:

   <  A blooper is an owner of a regenerative set who operates it in such a
manner as to cause whistles or howls in neighboring receiving sets, in other
words he causes the set to radiate.>

It seems almost too coincidental that the "blooper" radio set appears in
1924, and a "blooper" in baseball appears about 1926.  There almost
certainly should be a connection.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:59 PM
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)


>    The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an
embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
>    Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next
"Bloopies"--but probably not.
>
>
>       TIGERS SCORE FOUR IN SEVENTH TO BEAT SENATORS IN OPENER, 4-1
>        ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Sep 2, 1925.                   p. B1 (2 pages):
> Pg. 2:  _"BEEFING" PARTY_
>    The Senators bunched around Ump Schmidt for a little "beefing" party,
but nothing in the way of punches took place.  In fact, it was none other
than Mr. Eckert, himself, who provided the next punch, a one-base "blooper"
rap over the drawn-in Solon infield that brought both O'Shea and Whitney
over the rubber and clinched the tilt.
>
>       LAZERRE'S FORTY-THIRD HOMER TIES COAST MARK
>        ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1925.                   p. 9 (2 pages):
> Pg. 1:  Piercy hurled a magnificent game holding the Tigers to one hit, a
blooper single by Jackie Warner in the sixth frame, for eight frames.
>
>       WARFARE ON BLOOPERS IS NOW WAGED
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: Feb 14, 1926.                   p. B9 (1 page):
>    Warfare against bloopers is declared!  With the terrific demonstration
of blooping fresh in the minds of all listeners who attempted to receive
foreign stations during the International Radio Week tests just concluded,
the campaign announced by the Radio Digest should meet with instant success.
> (...)  ...to reduce radiation or blooping to a minimum.
>
> (All other cites until 1939 appear to be from sports.  I'll keep
checking--ed.)
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 01:35:49 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:35:49 -0500
Subject: "Three hots and a cot" (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.203549.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember this expression being used during the Vietnam War. A
newspaper article discussed why many young men (might have been
African-Americans, but I'm not sure on this point) were enlisting,
and the answer received from an enlistee was that you get "three hots
and a cot."

Gerald Cohen


At 11:30 PM -0400 10/19/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a
>cot," meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE
>SQUARES)."
>...
>DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
>        By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.  New York
>Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969. p. 51 (1
>page):
>    For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his
>room and board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Oct 21 01:54:08 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:54:08 -0500
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.205408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alternative definition, from the late 60's in Viet Nam:  The M-79 (40 mm)
grenade launcher was known as a 'blooper' for both the sound of the launch
and the high trajectory, somewhat similar to a baseball fly.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>


   The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an
embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
   Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next "Bloopies"--but
probably not.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Oct 21 02:02:14 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:02:14 -0400
Subject: "Three hots and a cot" (1969)
In-Reply-To: <p04310102bbba3c8dbac7@[131.151.65.37]>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.220214.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>I remember this expression being used during the Vietnam War. A

I last heard it - in 1988 - in a residential alcohol/drug recovery
center. (Yes, I was residing there.) Someone went AWOL near the end of his
30-day stay - some others (all males, as I recall and young enough to
have been in Vietnam) surmised that he had been there only for the "3 hots
and a cot."

Bethany


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 02:32:23 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:32:23 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.223223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on three/hots/cots.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:30 PM
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)


>    The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a cot,"
meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE SQUARES)."
>    Not to be confused with three hot men/women and a cot.  That just
wouldn't work on a cot.
>
>
> DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
>        By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.       New York
Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969.
p. 51 (1 page):
>    For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his room and
board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct 21 03:13:09 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:13:09 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
In-Reply-To: <024c01c3977b$90357560$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.231309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on three/hots/cots.

The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired. I believe
there are certain common words which just can't be searched for in certain
fields. The site doesn't tell you this (AFAIK): you just get no responses.
For example I get ZERO newspaper hits not only for "three/hots" but also
for "three/miles", "three/things", "three/points", "three/goals",
"three/years", "three/days", etc.

Another example: "[blank]/three" gives ZERO hits, "[blank]/"thine" about
64,000.

Another: about 37,000 hits for "yesterday/evening", ZERO for "this/evening".

The Valdez newspaper sometimes is an exception: perhaps it's treated
differently for some reason.

If SC or others know how to work around the glitches ... please fill me in!

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 03:32:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:32:11 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.233211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug said, "The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired."

Welcome to the bizarro world of Ancestry.com.

Hey!  You knew the mission was dangerous when you accepted it.  :)

If I explained it to you, I'd have to kill you!

Perhaps Barry or Jonathon can.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Three hots and a cot (1969)


> >For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on
three/hots/cots.
>
> The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired. I believe
> there are certain common words which just can't be searched for in certain
> fields. The site doesn't tell you this (AFAIK): you just get no responses.
> For example I get ZERO newspaper hits not only for "three/hots" but also
> for "three/miles", "three/things", "three/points", "three/goals",
> "three/years", "three/days", etc.
>
> Another example: "[blank]/three" gives ZERO hits, "[blank]/"thine" about
> 64,000.
>
> Another: about 37,000 hits for "yesterday/evening", ZERO for
"this/evening".
>
> The Valdez newspaper sometimes is an exception: perhaps it's treated
> differently for some reason.
>
> If SC or others know how to work around the glitches ... please fill me
in!
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 21 09:03:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:03:11 EDT
Subject: "Baltimore" Lemon Sticks (1911 or 1913?)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.050311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Two Marian Burros articles for the NEW YORK TIMES in the 1980s caught my
attention.  In the July 1987 article, she put Baltimore lemon sticks right up
there with Buffalo Wings and the New York Egg Cream.
   Did this idea really come from Baltimore?  I checked several Baltimore
guidebooks (written recently)--not one mentioned "lemon sticks."
  Sucking juice through a candy straw--who invented that?


(PROQUEST DATABASE)
   A May Day Frolic and How It Came About
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 9, 1915. p. M7 (1
page):
   "We can have sandwiches of jelly or lettuce, and cakes and candies, and,
best of all, a lemon and lemon stick.  Then, if the weather is fine, we can eat
out of doors, or we can be perfectly comfortable inside.  The boys can bring
the candy and lemons and lemon sticks, and we girls will supply the sandwiches
and cakes."


   Flower Mart To Be Largest In Its History
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 26, 1942. p. R12 (1
page):
   The children who visit the mart this year will be favored with attractions
offered for their special interest such as a booth of pets, another featuring
a doll house and still another selling gingerbread, cookies and lemon sticks.

   An Excursion To Baltimore's Inner Harbor
By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 14,
1983. p. XX19 (2 pages):
Pg XX19:  The Oasis sells good lemon ices as well as the traditional
Baltimore lemon stick, a peppermint stick inserted in a whole lemon.  The proper way
to eat this is to suck on the peppermint stick, allowing the lemon juice to
mingle with its sweetness.

   A Fourth of July Toast to Foods That Made America Great
By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 1,
1987. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:
   _Baltimore Lemon Stick._  There was a lemon stick crisis at this year's
Flower Mart, Baltimore's annual fund-raiser for the women's Civic League.  The
candy can supplier had gone out of business and the available canes were either
"too porous, so they start dissolving, or too hard, so you can't draw the
juice up through it," said June Goldfield, a chairman of past Flower Marts.
Eventually, a North Carolina company saved this Baltimore tradition.  Lemon sticks
are lemon halves into which a candy cane is inserted.  Suck on the candy cane
and pull up the sour lemon juice.  Mrs. Goldfield said lemon sticks were born
in either 1911 or 1913.

   Lemon Candy
HELEN N. ROSENBERG. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul
22, 1987. p. C8 (1 page):
To the Living Section:
   In "A July 4 Toast to Foods That Made America Great" [July 1], Marian
Burros asked, "Who but a Baltimorean would know how to eat a lemon stick (a candy
cane stuck into a lemon)?"
   My father, who was raised on the Lower East Side of Manhattan in the
1890's and never set foot in Baltimore, often explained his fondness for sucking
lemons by recalling a favorite confection.  It was half a lemon into which was
stuck a long, thin lemon-flavored candy stick, through which the lemon juice
was sucked.
   HELEN N. ROSENBERG
   New York


(ANCESTRY DATABASE)
   30 June 1934, MANSFIELD NEWS (Mansfield, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 5:
   We were poor in money.  In fact coin was a nebulous thing, but we were
happy.  I wish I had the appetite that was mine when I was 10 years old.  I would
walk into Frank Barnes store, lay down a nickle, and buy sticks of candy.
There would be one of peppermint, one of wintergreen, one of lemon, one of
hoarhound, one of clove, and best of all a stick with a pink "o. k.," running from
end to end.  It was porous.  I would stick one end into a dipper of water and
suck good tastes and perfume until my little stomach was as tight as a drum
head.

   28 June 1935, CHILICOTHE CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg.
4, col. 2:
_A Real Fourth_
_of July Party_
_For the Kiddies_
(...)
      _Recalled From Childhood_
   The Fourth of July appetizer is an inspiration from my own childhood when
we used to force a stick of lemon candy into half a lemon and suck the lemon
juice through it.  Instead of lemons, oranges, thoroughly scrubbed and chilled,
one for each child, may be used.  To prepare, cut a slice from the top of
each fruit, and with a sharp knife loosen flesh from shell and cut between
segments.  Insert a stick of  red and white peppermint candy.  Stick a small flag in
the orange rind and serve.

   2 July 1935, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 14,
cols. 2-3:
(Same story as above, but with a nice photo containing this caption--ed.)
   Old-fashioned sugar stick candy serves as a sweetening straw for this
unusual children's party dish--stick the candy into a lemon or orange and let the
guests suck out the juice.

   23 December 1975, Edwardsville Intelligencer (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg.
6B, col. 1:
_PEPPERMINT ORANGES_
   Roll fresh oranges gently on table top to soften, and cut small hole on
the top of each one.  Insert stick of peppermint candy.  Small fry can suck the
juice through the candy stick, making a double treat!


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 21 11:41:17 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:41:17 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.074117.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now free in Vocabula -- "Making Peace in the Language Wars" by Bryan A.
Garner

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp</A>



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 21 17:41:27 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:41:27 -0700
Subject: muleociation (cont.)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.104127.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

over in soc.motss i told the "muleociation" story and wondered aloud
about content checkers.  and got this amazing but true story:

[me]
 >>are there bad-word checkers that flag words with "ass" in them, or
 >>words that begin with "ass" (associate, assist, assemble, assign, etc.
 >>-- a fair collection of really useful words)?  i could just barely
 >>manage to imagine such a silly thing, but i really have trouble
 >>imagining software that went so far as to suggest "mule" as a
 >>substitute for "ass".

[alex elliott]
 >Quite some years ago I went to an internet cafe that had an extremely
 >stupid and extremely over-zealous objectionable content filter.  It was
 >apparently set to screen out "hate speech" as well as sexual stuff,
but it
 >didn't bother to check whether the filtered words were part of larger,
 >non-objectionable words or not (filtered words were just deleted, not
 >substituted with synonyms or anything).

 >I was trying to read my email, but it was very difficult since the
sender
 >was renamed to "Mne" (that's "Maryanne" without the "aryan") and the
first
 >word of her note was "Wver" (that's "Whatever" without the "hate").  It
 >was equally incomprehensible the whole way through.

 >I'm still annoyed that I didn't ask for my money back for the time I
paid
 >for.  The stupid filter made the computer essentially useless.

arnold


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:14:42 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:14:42 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "hog fruit" (= hot dog)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sam Clements kindly sent me a long 1913 article on "hot dog," and
several points may be of interest to the ads-l members. Here's the
first installment: "hog fruit", evidently a humorous reference to
"hot dog," perhaps based on "hen fruit" (= egg).

Meade, James W. 1913. "Have You got the 'Hot Dog' Habit? No? Then
Hurry   for Everybody That's Anybody is Doing it Now." Atlanta
Constitution, Sunday, April 13, 1913, section A, p. 15. cols. 1-7.
[col. 1]:
'Hail! The Hot Dog!
'At last has the luscious hog-fruit come into its own.  From the
        purlieus of the Great Boulevard of Blaze to the most isolated
jerkwater hamlet in Mississippi, it has made the air fragrant with
the seductive aroma of onions and sauerkraut, and has become an
        industry which is the means of separating the American people
of millions every year.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:15:22 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:15:22 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article,
 1913: Origin of "hot dog" is too embarrassing to tell
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message # 2 on Meade's 1913 "hot dog" article. In col. 1 we
see here an indirect reference to the popular 19th century belief
(true!) that sausages sometimes contained dog meat:

'"Hot dog" is the libel slang writers have [illegible; put?] on
the                weinerwurst, or rather, the Frankfurter.  It is
sometimes referred to as a young sausage, picked before it is ripe.
Its--origin--well let's hark back to our story, and let's not believe
all we hear about the weinie.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:16:07 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:16:07 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "skinned",
 "two ways from Sunday," "gentle art of lifting the coin," chile
 on hot dogs
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message #3 on Meade's "hot dog" article. Sam Clements asks me
whether 1913 is early for chile on hot dogs (I'm not sure; I'll have
to check my notes).
"Two ways from Sunday"--This sort of expression was recently
discussed on ads-l.
"Gentle art of lifting the coin"--I suppose this refers to making money.

    Here's the passage:

        'Atlanta's Greeks, the men who control the "hot dog" industry
here, have old Julius Caesar and his compatriots skinned two ways
from Sunday in the gentle art of lifting the coin. In five years gone
by they have made the Sherman act blush with shame.  They are the
compeers of every other nation when it comes to forking "hot dogs"
and spreading the mustard, chile, and the sauerkraut.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:17:29 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:17:29 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "Hot Dog" as a dance
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message #4 on Meade's "hot dog" article. The Texas Tommy was
a dance. I never heard of the Tango Tea..

[col. 2; heading]:  Society [i.e., High Society] Has the Habit
        'Society has the weinie, or rather the "hot dog" fad.  The
"turkey trot," "Texas Tommy," gave way to the "Tango Tea," and now
the "Hot Dog Hop" and the "Weinie Wiggle" threaten to keep anxious
mothers and careless chaperons awake at night.  "Hot Dog" clubs are
to be found in Atlanta. The day does not seem far distant when
college and round table debates will include the "hot dog" in the
discussions.'

Gerald Cohen

P.S. There are a few more items of interest: "bones" (= dollars),
"larripun truck" (meaning: ?), "hot cat" stands. I'll get to them
tomorrow.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 20:36:32 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:36:32 -0500
Subject: "larrupin' truck"--message from Joan Hall
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.153632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My thanks to Joan Hall for her message below concerning the meaning
of "larripun [sic; misspelled] truck" in the 1913 "hot dog" article
(Atlanta Constitution).
The full quote comes near the end of the article:
  "And now let's draw the curtain, but lest some readers might go
astray, or perhaps not grasp the intent of this effort, we want to
explain that it is not our desire to throw cold water on the "hot
dog."  Quite to the contrary, we want to reiterate that "hot dog" is
larripun [sic] truck, and is all to the mustard with a little catsup
and sauerkraut thrown in."

Gerald Cohen


At 2:51 PM -0500 10/21/03, Joan Houston Hall wrote:
>Subject: larrupin' truck
>
>
>Hi Gerald,
>My guess is that it's "larrupin' truck," or 'delicious  vegetables
>[or food generally].'  "Larruping" is especially common in the West
>Midland, Texas, and Oklahoma.
>
>Best,
>Joan


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct 22 01:18:37 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:18:37 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.211837.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't find the word in OED nor M-W.  I may have missed it.

HDAS has 1916.  Meaning, "a neighborhood inhabited principaly by blacks."
>From the song, "Dark-Town Strutter's Ball."

I couldn't help searching up some more articles by James Meade from the
Atlanta Constitution--the fellow who wrote the "hot dog" article I sent to
Gerald Cohen.  Mr. Meade has a nice, slangy, writing style.

>From the Atlanta Constitution,  May 5, 1912, page (hard to read), column
four.  This is probably another of those Sunday feature section articles.

      <"He's a Bear!  He's a Bear--"     And to the riotous accompaniment of
a careless orchestra, Darktown danced.  It was the grand opening of a new
cafe and ball room on the rue de Collins.  Bright the lamps shone o'er dusky
belies, and gallant sable men.>

Wowzzer.  This article starts out gangbusters!  I'll have to read it in it's
entirety.  Stay tuned.

SC


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:52:27 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:52:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?---(message #1)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, here's the first of a few messages sent to the 19th century
baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


>To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>From: "robert h. schaefer" <bubba at xtalwind.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:07:54 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>I have been reading the various accounts of the Great Base Ball Match of
>1858, played at the Fashion Race Course.  At the conclusion of the first
>game, played on July 20th, The Spirit of the Times for July 24th carried
>this account of the post-game ceremonies:
>
>"Judge Van Cott, of the Gotham Club, proposed a toast, 'Health, success,
>and prosperity to the members of the Brooklyn Base Ball Clubs,' which was
>received with all the honors, and three time three a tiger."
>
>I am puzzled by the expression, "three times three a tiger."  Does anyone
>know what this means, and/or where it came from ?
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Bob Schaefer
>Beverly Hills, Florida


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:53:10 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:53:10 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?--(message #2)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Now you are venturing into vintage base ball territory. :)
>
>A tiger is not just an animal, but also part of a cheer, as defined
>in this 1913 dictionary:
>http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Tiger
>"4. A kind of growl or screech, after cheering; as, three cheers and
>a tiger. [Colloq. U.S.]"
>
>Civil War reenactors, and now vintage base ballists, have been
>debating "three cheers and a tiger" for some time. Were the cheers
>"hurrah" or "huzzah"? I have heard the argument that a synonym for
>"cheer" is "huzzah" and the cheer shouted was "hurrah," but yet,
>song lyrics of the day have both. Midwestern 1860 vintage base ball
>typically just shouts three "huzzahs" without the tiger. Mr.
>Hunkele's club in Michigan has been enlightening us with a true
>"three cheers and a tiger" at the games of the Sterling Base Ball
>Club.
>
>I am guessing that this usage, "three time three a tiger," was an
>especially jubilant version.
>
>Deano Thilgen
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:53:32 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:53:32 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?--(message #3)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>From: David McDonald <davidm at achilles.net>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Bob,
>
>I think he's saying something to the effect that his opponents deserve three
>times the usual three cheers...plus a tiger. The Shorter Oxford defines
>tiger as "(U.S. slang): A shriek or howl (often the word 'tiger')
>terminating a prolonged and enthusiastic cheer (1856)" as in three
>cheers!...tiger!
>
>Cheers,
>David McDonald
>Ottawa


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 03:47:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:47:35 -0400
Subject: Lights, Camera, Action (1926)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.234735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't know if Fred Shapiro is interested in this show business phrase that long ago caught on with the general public.
   It dates before the talkies.



      CHRISTY GIRLS AT HOME ON SET
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1926.                   p. B8 (1 page):
(Photo caption--ed.)
      _Lights, Camera, Action_
   Evelyn Egan, left, and Helen Myers, right, register aural gratification while A. V. Williams tunes in something snappy.

      Display Ad 57 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 17, 1929.                   p. B2 (1 page):
   Lights+Camera+Action!
   Another Hollywood Adopted Style
(New York Hat Stores ad--ed.)

      Action! Lights! Camera!
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 25, 1934.                   p. SM6 (1 page)


   Action-Lights-Camera?  Were they shooting porn in 1934?
LIGHTS CAMERA ACTION--58,200 Google hits
LIGHTS ACTION CAMERA--1,020 Google hits
CAMERA LIGHTS ACTION--809 Google hits
ACTION LIGHTS CAMERA--398 Google hits
CAMERA ACTION LIGHTS--154 Google hits
ACTION CAMERA LIGHTS---131 Google hits


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Oct 22 13:24:48 2003
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:24:48 -0400
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.092448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Robert Hartwell Fiske <Vocabula at AOL.COM>

: Now free in Vocabula -- "Making Peace in the Language Wars" by Bryan A.
: Garner

: http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp

Not a bad article, all in all, particularly in its description of the
excesses that both descriptivists and prescriptivists commit in their
attempts to get their jabs in at each other.

However, i find it somewhat amusing that Garner first criticizes Huddleston
& Pullum for advocating a peace that would involve prescriptivists making
all the changes, and then advocates a peace that would involve
descriptivists (at least, those descriptivists in whose camp i fall) making
all the changes.

A rapprochement between the two camps would be a good thing, IMO. However, i
suspect that it's not going to come about as the result of each side
presenting solutions that make perfect sense to that side (and,
unfortunately, *only* that side).

David, who doesn't capitalize "i" on purpose
--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 14:03:57 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:03:57 -0500
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.090357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See also Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_, 2000:
"TIGER, noun #2: (mid 19C - 1900s): (US) a for of college cheer, esp.
in phr. 'three cheers and a tiger', the three usual 'hip-hip-hoorays'
plus a long-drawn-out shriek, often of the word 'tiger'."

   "Three times three" (in "three times three a tiger") evidently
means three times the normal number of "hip-hip-hoorays."

Gerald Cohen


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:12:49 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:12:49 EDT
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.101249.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
wrote:

<begin quote>
"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
Usenet.

Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
Web.
<end quote>

On the other hand, AOL News says

<begin quote>
What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?

By RACHEL KIPP, AP

ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
but no cure.

''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
songs that are tough to shake.

''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's
heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all
over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
snip>
<end quote>

      - Jim Landau


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Oct 22 14:28:28 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:28:28 +0100
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.152828.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My first cite (from Mathews Dict. Americanisms, 1950) runs thus:

1856 Spirit of Times  8 Nov. 165/1: Mr. Andrews [...] concluded by [...]
calling upon the Excelsiors to give three times three and a tiger to the
Putnams

A second runs

1870 New York Herald 17 Nov. Gentlemen, I call for nine cheers and a tiger
in honor of our guests

It seems that the whole 'three times' three (or 'nine') cheers plus the
shriek of 'Tiger!' was par for the course at this early stage. However, if
my cites are to believed, by the 1880s this seems to have diminished to the
better known 'three cheers'. Plus, of course, the tiger.

FWIW I offer this proposed etymology, culled from the Bulletin (Sydney,
Australia).

1900 Bulletin (Sydney) 30 Jun. Red Page/2:  Tradition and custom hold that
the ‘tiger’ is a howl which accentuates the cheers and intensifies the
applause. The best of several ‘origins’ tells how, early in this century, an
American politician, S.S. Prentiss, was stumping the country, and came to a
town where there was a small menagerie on exhibition. This he hired for a
day and threw it open to all-comers, availing himself of the occasion to
make a political speech. The orator, holding a 10ft. pole, stood on the
tiger’s cage, in the roof of which there was a hole, and whenever the
multitudes applauded one of his ‘points’ with three cheers, Prentiss poked
the tiger, who uttered a harsh roar. From this 'three cheers and a tiger'
spread over the country.

As to the veracity of such a claim, I cannot speak (tho' I tend to
scepticism), but would be grateful for any comments, especially as to the
biography (and campaigning tactics) of Mr Prentiss..

Jonathon Green


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:43:40 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:43:40 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.104340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I saw the AP article about Professor Kellaris too and wondered about it.  Bear in mind that reporters get a lot of things wrong (reporting is harder than it sounds); I get interviewed from time to time myself on securities law, and it's excruciating when a reporter's mistake makes me look like an idiot.  But "earworm" clearly was not invented by Kellaris in 2000.  We've talked about this before on ADS-L, and the earliest use yet found seems to be from the 9/18/87 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist Bobby Watson ("I like to create little earworms").

John Baker



-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 10:13 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"


On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
wrote:

<begin quote>
"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
Usenet.

Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
Web.
<end quote>

On the other hand, AOL News says

<begin quote>
What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?

By RACHEL KIPP, AP

ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
but no cure.

''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
songs that are tough to shake.

''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's
heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all
over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
snip>
<end quote>

      - Jim Landau


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:58:16 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:58:16 EDT
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.105816.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At the annual Princeton reunion, which from everything I have heard is the
mother-of-all reunions, there is an event called the P-rade which involves all
of the returning classes, beginning with the 25th, then the "Old Guard" (oldest
surviving class), and so on down to the most recent year, marching (well,
walking) along the main roads of the campus which are lined with the various
classes waiting their turns to fall into line.  Periodically "tigers" are given.
For example an enthusiast from the class of 1985 might be so overcome at the
sight of the advancing class of 1945, resplendent in their orange and black
coats, that he will turn to his classmates and begin this cheer (which the whole
class takes up) "Tiger-tiger- tiger-sis-sis-sis-boom-boom-boom-bah! 45! 45!
45!, then everyone cheers and drinks even greater quantities of beer. The rhythm
is 3 sets of triplets, without a pause, ending in the bah!   Princeton's
mascot is of course the tiger, and how long this particular cheer has been around
I don't know, but it is 3 times three with a bah at the end.

DF Coye
The College of NJ


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 22 15:47:25 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:47:25 -0700
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <122.2740fdd6.2cc7ea61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.084725.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 07:12 AM, James A. Landau quotes a
dating to 1993 on soc.motss and a claim by a univ. of cincinnati
professor to have invented the term.

Word Spy has a 1987 cite.

it's also a word that is likely to have been translated from the german
many times, by different people independently.  or even invented
independently.

it doesn't seem to be in allen metcalf's Predicting New Words.  i think
it has an excellent future, though.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 22 14:58:27 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:58:27 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <122.2740fdd6.2cc7ea61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.105827.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reminds me of a "Twilight Zone" episode too many years ago, in which an
earworm/earwig crawled inside a man's ear and burrowed through his brain to
the other side, driving him literally crazy.  Scariest show I've ever seen.

At 10:12 AM 10/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
>wrote:
>
><begin quote>
>"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
>Usenet.
>
>Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
>a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
>writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
>as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
>in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
>Web.
><end quote>
>
>On the other hand, AOL News says
>
><begin quote>
>What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?
>
>By RACHEL KIPP, AP
>
>ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
>into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
>annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
>but no cure.
>
>''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
>songs that are tough to shake.
>
>''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
>professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in
>people's
>heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from
>people all
>over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
>snip>
><end quote>
>
>       - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 22 17:33:09 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:33:09 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031022110356.01f18b70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.133309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 11:32:38AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> I'm not interested in the tiger term, but in "huzzah."  In a recent TV
> documentary on the first settlement in the Northwest Territory at Marietta,
> Ohio in 1786 or thereabouts, post-Revolutionary War soldiers were
> re-enacted as shouting "huzzah!" when they toasted their success, or a
> speech, or a celebratory meal.  Is there evidence that this was the earlier
> term, before "hurrah"?

OED has evidence from the seventeenth century.

Jesse Sheidlower


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 22 17:44:22 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:44:22 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.134422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, this _earworm_ has no connection to that in the OED (1598),
meaning "earwig" and figuratively "a secret counsellor."  And, surely, not
to _corn earworm_ (see WBD, AHD4), or more broadly defined (W3).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 22 15:32:38 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:32:38 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <p04310107bbbb9262f352@[131.151.65.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.113238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not interested in the tiger term, but in "huzzah."  In a recent TV
documentary on the first settlement in the Northwest Territory at Marietta,
Ohio in 1786 or thereabouts, post-Revolutionary War soldiers were
re-enacted as shouting "huzzah!" when they toasted their success, or a
speech, or a celebratory meal.  Is there evidence that this was the earlier
term, before "hurrah"?

At 08:53 PM 10/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>>
>>Now you are venturing into vintage base ball territory. :)
>>
>>A tiger is not just an animal, but also part of a cheer, as defined
>>in this 1913 dictionary:
>>http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Tiger
>>"4. A kind of growl or screech, after cheering; as, three cheers and
>>a tiger. [Colloq. U.S.]"
>>
>>Civil War reenactors, and now vintage base ballists, have been
>>debating "three cheers and a tiger" for some time. Were the cheers
>>"hurrah" or "huzzah"? I have heard the argument that a synonym for
>>"cheer" is "huzzah" and the cheer shouted was "hurrah," but yet,
>>song lyrics of the day have both. Midwestern 1860 vintage base ball
>>typically just shouts three "huzzahs" without the tiger. Mr.
>>Hunkele's club in Michigan has been enlightening us with a true
>>"three cheers and a tiger" at the games of the Sterling Base Ball
>>Club.
>>
>>I am guessing that this usage, "three time three a tiger," was an
>>especially jubilant version.
>>
>>Deano Thilgen


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Wed Oct 22 17:52:47 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:52:47 +0100
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.185247.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 22:48:58 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:48:58 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "hot cat" stand (for African-Americans)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.174858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Below my signoff is another excerpt from Meade's 1913 article on "hot dog."
---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this? Is it a hot-dog stand for
African-Americans, viewed with the slang term "cat" in mind? (HDAS
seems to have 1920 as the earliest date for "hot cat"--in an
African-American context)

Gerald Cohen


        [col. 1]-- 'Right here let it be said that Atlanta's "hot
dog" industry   from a "teenie, weenie" weinie grew.
        'You'll find them on Marietta street as this [sic: should be
'thick'] as     fleas on a mongrel's back. On Peachtree they line the
curbing close to        the sidewalk, and in Decatur street, the
"Great Black Way" of Atlanta, you'll find the "hot dog" man competing
with the "hot cat" stands that cater exclusively to the gourmants of
Atlanta's ebony population.'

in: Meade, James W. 1913. "Have You got the 'Hot Dog' Habit? No? Then
Hurry   for Everybody That's Anybody is Doing it Now." Atlanta
Constitution, Sunday, April 13, 1913, section A, p. 15. cols. 1-7.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Oct 22 23:11:41 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:11:41 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article,
 1913: "hot cat" stand (for African-Americans)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104bbbca85ddaaf@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.191141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?

Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 22 23:47:15 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:47:15 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <9f.3ed2a34b.2cbc5720@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.194715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours

I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
for?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:40:36 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:40:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "sno-cone" (1941)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W has 1964.

Barry found a trademark for Sno-Kone from 1947.

>From a classified ad in the Long Beach(CA) Independent, July 18, 1941, page
25, col. 3:

<WANT BOY, EXPERIENCED "SNO-CONE" OPERATOR.  135 E. SEASIDE.>

Just trying to save you time, Barry.

Sam


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:44:39 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:44:39 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310221941220.10515-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 07:47:15PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> > nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours
>
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
> for?

The Portland Oregonian, the Miami Herald, the Cleveland Plain Dealer,
definitely the Times-Picayune, the Kansas City Star.

Historically I'd also add the New York World, but the N.Y. Herald
and Tribune would be more important.

Jesse Sheidlower


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:46:01 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:46:01 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "sno-cone" (1941)
In-Reply-To: <004801c398fe$486e2900$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204601.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 08:40:36PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
>
> Just trying to save you time, Barry.

Don't be crazy, Sam. Now he's going to have to kill himself
trying to one-up you.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 23 01:08:52 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:08:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.210852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green nicely emailed me that I have NOT antedated the term
"Darktown."  Mathews had it from 1884, cited in AS.  <The Darktown Fire
Brigade---Saved>

l.  Why did HDAS cite 1916?  They had the AS/Mathews cite.

2.  An observation:  I read an 1884 Ancestry.com hit from the Olean, NY,
paper saying that the local fire department had a set of prints of such
things called "Darktown Fire Brigade." I searched the previous ten years or
so and found no hits for darktown.  So I conclude that the set of prints
available about 1884 popularized the term "darktown."

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:18 PM
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)


> I can't find the word in OED nor M-W.  I may have missed it.
>
> HDAS has 1916.  Meaning, "a neighborhood inhabited principaly by blacks."
> From the song, "Dark-Town Strutter's Ball."
>
> I couldn't help searching up some more articles by James Meade from the
> Atlanta Constitution--the fellow who wrote the "hot dog" article I sent to
> Gerald Cohen.  Mr. Meade has a nice, slangy, writing style.
>
> From the Atlanta Constitution,  May 5, 1912, page (hard to read), column
> four.  This is probably another of those Sunday feature section articles.
>
>       <"He's a Bear!  He's a Bear--"     And to the riotous accompaniment
of
> a careless orchestra, Darktown danced.  It was the grand opening of a new
> cafe and ball room on the rue de Collins.  Bright the lamps shone o'er
dusky
> belies, and gallant sable men.>
>
> Wowzzer.  This article starts out gangbusters!  I'll have to read it in
it's
> entirety.  Stay tuned.
>
> SC
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 23 01:42:19 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:42:19 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <200310221031.1acmPB5Cu3NZFl50@vulture>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.184219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... Is there evidence that this was the earlier
>term, before "hurrah"?

I'm not sure how accurate their linguistic research was, but since
the original Renaissance Faires started by teacher Phyllis Patterson,
the cheers have always been huzzah.  I do know that much of their
other research, e.g., costuming et al. has been pretty accurate to
the time - late 1500s.

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:04:20 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:04:20 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.210420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>
>This discussion has me thinking about how three cheers evolved into
>cheerleading. This webpage on the Princeton website is interesting:
>http://alumni.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp
>
>My question is, why was cheerleading associated with football early
>on, and less so with baseball?
>
>Deano Thilgen
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:18:16 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:18:16 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
In-Reply-To: <p0431010abbbce73a9f80@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.221816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:04 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>>
>>
>>This discussion has me thinking about how three cheers evolved into
>>cheerleading. This webpage on the Princeton website is interesting:
>>http://alumni.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp
>>
>>My question is, why was cheerleading associated with football early
>>on, and less so with baseball?

My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was
still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated
with professional players, and cheerleading is something you do in
school (high school or college).  There have been basketball
cheerleaders in high school and college for a long time too.  I think
that's the key difference rather than anything intrinsic to the
sports themselves, although the opposite position could be defended,
no doubt.

Larry


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:11:22 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:11:22 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.211122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>
>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.

Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.

Gerald Cohen


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:26:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:26:41 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p0431010bbbbce7c3bff0@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.222641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>
>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>
>Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>
Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
relevant species?

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Oct 23 02:44:27 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:44:27 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p0431010bbbbce7c3bff0@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.224427.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>
>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>
>... But there's no need to assume that "catfish" was humorously altered to
>"cat." "Cat" can mean "catfish"; ....

Yes, "cat" can be used for "catfish", although I think usually with a
qualifier (e.g., "channel cat") ... would "hot" suffice as such a
qualifier? I don't know, but it's my speculation that the usual term was
"catfish stand" and not "[hot] cat stand".

-- Doug Wilson


From willie at HIS.COM  Thu Oct 23 03:07:46 2003
From: willie at HIS.COM (Willie)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:07:46 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.230746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Washington Star.

Willie Schatz, who learned JOURNALISM as a part-timer there for four
fabulous years.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> > nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours
>
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
> for?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 23 03:57:48 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:57:48 -0700
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <200310221547.h9MFlfWY009374@mtaw3.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.205748.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:

>Word Spy has a 1987 cite.
>
>it's also a word that is likely to have been translated from the german
>many times, by different people independently.  or even invented
>independently.

I wonder if the 1988 publication of Howard Rheingold's _They Have a
Word for It_ might have been responsible for helping to spread the
English word, since I see from the Amazon reproduction of the index
that _Ohrwurm_ is one of the terms treated.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 06:14:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:14:01 EDT
Subject: Okeh sign (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.021401.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from a parking ticket-Yankee-sleep deprived haze.  At five a.m.,
 I'll hop on a dog and take a turn for the Worcester.
   I got a good copy of this page from the Library of Congress on Monday.


      GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S NEW TERMS COMPILED
       CARROLL NYE.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Jul 7, 1935.              p. A6 (1 page)

(COL. 3 PHOTO CAPTION--ed.)
      RADIO'S SIGN LANGUAGE AND KEN NILES
   Ken Niles is pictured, center, as he reads from a script for a COlumbia
Broadcasting System show.  Meanwhile, Raymond Paige is using radio sign language
on his orchestra, which the maestro illustrates for us in the series of small
pictures of his own hands.  Explanations: reading from top, left, across the
top and then down to bottom right, (1) This is a Paige signal to harpost for
transposition modulations during program (First fingers form "T"--ed.); (2)
Orchestra goes to second editing of (Col. 4--ed.) chorus if fingers are pointed
up ("Victory" sign--ed.).  If one is pointed up the musicians play the first
ending.  (3) Orchestra takes up theme (Looks like the Yellow Pages
fingers--ed.).  (4) "Okeh," the sign that the program is coming up on schedule.  (5)
Orchestra swings into finish of music (Fist--ed.).  (6) Two thumbs up means
everything on time and perfect.  (7) A secret signal which means "Play better--the
sponsor is in the studio!"  (First two fingers touch the other hand's open
palm--ed.)  Sam Coslow, famous tunesmith, "shot" the pictures.

(Col. 1 article--ed.)

_GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S_
_NEW TERMS COMPILED_
_Contribution to Ether Vocabulary Made by_
   _Technicians, Musicians, Actors, Music_
   _Directors, Writers, Flunkeys_
BY CARROLL NYE
   Radio, at birth, struggled along with a variety of names bestowed upon it
be a number of persons who claimed to be its parents.  And, like all infants,
it was almost inarticulate.
   The parenthood records still are muddled, but there is nothing uncertain
about the vocabulary radio has acquired in the brief span of years since its
christening--unless it be the derivation of some of its terms.  SOme of the
expressions have been borrowed from the theater and screen; others from the
newspaper, but the greater part of the "just happened."
   _WEBSTER'S PROBLEM SAME_
   I've begun a glossary of terms which, admittedly, is incomplete and
subject to dispute.  Even Webster had to start somewhere.
   Here it is:
   SIGNATURE: Theme melody for program designed to establish it definitely in
the mind of the listener.
   MICROPHONE: Similar to telephone.  Little black box which receives sounds
and has the power to throw those who face it into a state of panic.
   TRANSMITTER:  Electrical contrivance which generates carrier waves.
   ANTENNA: Means for projecting carrier wave into space.  Fluctuations of
carrier wave form sounds in receiving set.
      _NOISE BOX_
   RECEIVER: Noise box you have in your home to amuse yourself and annoy the
neighbors.
   DIAL: Circular disk in receiver with markings for locating various
stations.
   KILOCYCLE: Unit of measurement for frequency.

   WAVE  LENGTHS: Meters.
   WATTS: Power output.
   MEGACYCLE: One thousand kilocycles.  Unit of measurement in short-wave
transmission.
   REMOTE or REMOTE CONTROL:  Radio had made noun out of verb.  Means picking
up program from place outside radio studio.
      _BLEND OF SOUNDS_
   MIX: To blend sounds various microphones pick up, into one effective whose
(Illegible last word--ed.).
   MONITOR:  Verb.  Same as mix.
   NEMO:  Simon-pure radio coined word meaning remote pick-up.  Announcer's
key carries the word.
   NETWORK: Thousands of miles of telephone wires, used to transmit radio
programs over great distances.
   BOOSTER STATIONS: Small structures built at 100-miles intervals across the
country, in which control men keep network broadcasts at the proper levels.
   LINE HUM: Trouble in telephone line.
   STATIC: Atmosphere electricity.
      _MAN-MADE STATIC_
   INTERFERENCE: Man-made static through operations of electrical appliances.
   SIGNAL: Man-made code for station identification.
   SIGNAL STRENGHT: Indication of how far a station's broadcast is reaching.
   FADE: Gradually soften music or sound on program.  Lifted from motion
picture dictionary..
   CUT: Stop program.  Motion picture term also.
   SEGUE: Blend parts of program without verbal interruptions.
   SIGN ON: Introductory announcement indicating what station is going on the
air.
   SIGN OFF: Closing announcement if the same character.
   CALL-LETTERS: KMTR, KHJ, KFI, etc. Identification of stations given out by
Federal Radio Commission, now the Federal Communications Commission.
      _VERSITILITY NEEDED_
   ANNOUNCER: Man who is forced to be pleasant while selling Mrs.
Pepperdine's Pleasant Pills for Pale People.  Combination of side-show barker, train
announcer, press agent and Congressman who as (has?--ed.) been inoculated with a
phonograph needle.
   EMCEE:  Master of ceremonies.
   CROONER:  Term that came in with radio.  Man who massages the (Col.
2--ed.) microphone while softly singing sweet nothings.  Supposed to have "S.A."
   BLUES SINGER: Wailing singer.
   TORCH SINGER: Female crooner.
   NEWSCAST: Broadcast of news.
   SPORTSCAST: Broadcast of sports event.
   CANARY: See torch singer.
   STOOGE: The human wall against which the chief comic bounces his gags.
      _IT'S CONTAGIOUS_
   MICROMANIA: Disease which attacks one who loves the sound of his own
voice.  If he once gets on the air it takes an act of Congress to get him off.
   SPONSOR: Commercial firm which puts out the money for radio programs.
   COMMERCIAL: Sponsored program.
   SUSTAINING: Unsponsored program.
   SPOT ANNOUNCEMENT: Brief commercial announcement put on between commercial
or sustaining programs.
   TIME SIGNAL: Inexpensive form of advertising by telling listeners what
time of day it is.
   FLUFF: To see one word or phrase in radio script and say something else.
      _TONGUE-TWISTERS_
   SPOONERISM: Tongue-twisting comedy routine employed by Roy Atwell, Senator
Fishface, J. C. Flippen and Joe Twerp.  Not to be confused with stuttering.
   ARTIST:  Performer who gets more than $10 a week.
   COMMENTATOR: Anyone who imitates Edwin C. Hill, Alexander Woollcott or
read Time magazine.
   FORMAT: Synopsis of radio program.
   SOUND-EFFECTS MAN: One who was bounced on head when a child.
   CHAIN: See "Network."
   HOOK-UP: Same.
   TUNERINNER: Listener.
   TUNEROUTER: Radio editor.
   BEEFER: Malcontent.
      _NO OVERLAPPING_
   SELECTIVITY: Quality of receiving set to reproduce programs of many
stations without having one overlap the other.
   AUDITION: Same as "tryout" in theater parlance.
   AIR CHECK: Recording on wax of program that has been on the air.
   ELECTRICAL TRANSCRIPTION: Program originally recorded on wax and used
subsequently for broadcasts.
   LIVE AUDIENCE: Audience in radio station during broadcast.
   CROSS-TALK: Annoying effect produced when lines are crossed and programs
from two stations come on the air simultaneously.
      _ECHO PRODUCED_
   FEED_BACK: Effect produced when the loudspeaker is in operation in the
control room and the echo goes back through the microphone.
   DEAD MIKE: Microphone that hasn't been connected with the controls.
   LIVE ROOM: Room full of echoes.  Unsuitable for broadcasting purposes.
      _PROFESSIONAL "HAMS"_
   AMATEUR SHOW: Radio program contributed with professional "hams" and
"stooge hams."
   THIN: Expression used to denote the fact that instruments or voices are
not being properly reproduced.
   So much for the nucleus of radio's vocabulary.  Let's polish this off with
some of the strange expressions which are peculiar to the industry.
   SHE'S IN THE MUD: Volume too low.
   SOUNDS LIKE A DRUM: Broadcast sounds hollow.
   SHE'S BOOMY: Indicating performer is too close to the microphone.
   OUT OF THE BEAMS: Performer is out of range of the microphone.
   ON THE NOSE: Program has started and finished at the proper second.
   SHE'S PIQUING: Performer is giving more volume than the microphone can
take.
   There's a starter.  You are welcome to add to it--or correct it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 07:05:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:05:36 EDT
Subject: Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas (1940)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.030536.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some web sites give this as a Spanish proverb, but a few attribute it to
Hollywood actress Jean Harlow.  I don't know what Fred Shapiro has.  I haven't
checked ProQuest.
   Sleep with dogs?  I want to sleep with Catherine Zeta-Jones, but I can
never get her on her cell phone....Who needs sleep, anyway?  (He says, about to
fall asleep soon on a Greyhound bus.)


   15 June 1940, OSHKOSH NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) , pg.5, col. 3:
_American at Crossroads; Beware Of_
_Fifth Columnists, Warns F. B. Keefe_
_In Address at Flag Day Ceremonies_
(...)
   Others, convinced that a nation of 130,000,000 people need not be alarmed
over the activities of a few communists, fascists, or nazis, have been content
to stick their heads under the sands of self-complacency and do nothing to
abate the nuisance.  They have said, "Why be alarmed and pay attention to a few
lice?"  Let me call attention to the fact, however, that a louse or a flea or
a rat can carry a plague.  A tapeworm can starve an athlete and those who
sleep with dogs may expect to wake up with fleas.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 08:17:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:17:13 EDT
Subject: Sno-Cones & Coddies & Pit Beef & Berger Cookies (from Baltimore)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.041713.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Beat me to "sno-cone" but that much (as Maxwell Smart would say).
   During my "Baltimore lemon stick" search, I also ran across "sno-cones"
and "coddies."  DARE has "codfish ball" but not "coddie"?


CITY-SMART GUIDEBOOK
BALTIMORE
John Muir Publications,
Avon Travel Publishing
2000

Pg. 63:  Hometown Specialties
   Pit beef:  A hunk of beef cooked long and slow in a barbecue pit, then
sliced and customarily eaten on a kaiser roll with onions, horseradish, and/or
barbecue sauce.  Find it at any Baltimore street festival, Boog's BBQ at Camden
Yards, and many downtown restaurants.
   Sno-Cones:  Shaved ice flavored with sweet syrup and served in a paper
cone.  Find them in any baltimore neighborhood during the heat of summer.
   Coddies:  Silver-dollar-size fish cakes made from cod, mashed potatoes,
and eggs.  Available at Broadway Market in Fells Point, Attman's Delicatessen,
and Wayne's BBQ.
   Berger Cookies:  Vanilla cookies covered in sinfully rich chocolate fudge.
 Look for them at the Berger's Bakery outpost in Lexington Market, Eddie's
Markets, local Royal Farms convenient stores, and area Giant supermarkets.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 11:56:52 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:56:52 EDT
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.075652.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:11:22 -0500, Gerald Cohen
> gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote (inter alia):
>
>  "Cat" can mean
> "catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
> that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.

or perhaps to a sleeping cow, since "catskinner" is a slang term for a
bull-dozer operator---a linguistic blend (?) of "Caterpillar tractor" (gee, still
another animal) + "muleskinner".

           - Jim Landau


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 13:31:31 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:31:31 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310221941220.10515-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.093131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

St. Louis Globe-Democrat, may she rest in tatters, which ran from 1873
to 1986. The St. Louis Public Library has microfilm:

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/newscoll.htm

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 07:47 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they
> asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the
> Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News
> (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but
> historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In
> case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should
> push
> for?


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 13:36:28 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:36:28 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <36C6F985-055D-11D8-888A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.093628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 09:31 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> St. Louis Globe-Democrat, may she rest in tatters, which ran from 1873
> to 1986.

Oops: it was founded in 1852, a year after the Post-Dispatch, according
to this rather interesting archive of political cartoons and commentary
from 1896.

http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 14:13:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:13:56 -0500
Subject: catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p04320402bbbceb15d3fb@[130.132.245.173]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.091356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From Laurence Horn, yesterday:
>At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>... But there's no need to assume
>>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>>
>Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
>kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
>not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
>might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
>otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
>the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
>"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
>than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
>reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
>relevant species?
>
>larry



I treated this topic in my article "There's More Than One Way To Skin A Cat."
in: _Studies in Slang_, part 2 (ed.: Gerald Leonard Cohen), Frankfurt
am Main: Peter Lang. 1989, pp. 118-119.

   Here's an excerpt, viz. what John S. Farmer says (in
_Americanisms--Old and New_, 1889):" _CAT or CATFISH...Perhaps the
most common fish in the States, and certainly the one which enjoys
the greatest number of aliases.  the negroes, especially in the
South, call it the _catty_, but its most popular name is simply
_cat_..."

Also, btw, one of Farmer's quotes is: "[Dodge says that] In the purer
streams of the plains is found a beautiful species of CAT-FISH,
called in some parts the lady cat, and in others the channel cat. Its
maximum weight is about three pounds.  The spines of the pectoral
fins are unusually developed and inflict a most painful wound...It is
very strong and active, and when hooked, makes almost as good a fight
as a bass or trout of equal weight.  It is the trout of CAT-FISH."

   Farmer also comments on catfish in general: "In the large rivers
they grow to an immense size."

    So, some catfish could be big and powerful and could put up a heck of fight.
Is there any chance that when Louis Armstrong (on the riverboats)
started popularizing slang "cats" in reference to jazz aficionados,
he had in mind the catfish rather than felines?

Gerald Cohen


>At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>>
>>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>>
>>Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
>>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>>
>Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
>kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
>not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
>might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
>otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
>the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
>"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
>than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
>reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
>relevant species?
>
>larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Oct 23 14:47:58 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:47:58 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.104758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

        Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in your article?

        I came across a couple of quotes that sounded interesting.  From the Galveston Daily News or the Dallas Daily News (or perhaps both; they apparently were under common ownership), a March 8, 1913, editorial:  "Maybe, if one could go deep enough, one would see that the grievance is, not that there is no competition, but that there is too much, wherefore the desirability of having the anti-trust law drive some oil companies out of the state that the others may not be forced to lead so strenuous a life. There are nine ways to skin a cat and at least two uses to be made of an anti-trust law."

        From a 1909 Missouri court opinion (quoting a party's brief):  "He did every acrobatic feat that a man or horse can do, except skin the cat. A blind motorman a block away could have seen the anxiety of this fool horse to enjoy the delightful sensation of a head-on collision."  Batsch v. United Rys. Co. of St. Louis, 143 Mo.App. 58, 122 S.W. 371 (Mo.App. Nov 02, 1909).

        The 1909 cite sounds like there was some well-known acrobatic feat called skinning the cat; could that be the source of the phrase?

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 15:13:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:13:56 -0400
Subject: King of the Kangaroos (1858); Brooklyn Eagle
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.111356.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON QUERY--Have you looked at the American Antiquarian Society's THE WHIP and BROADWAY BELLE?  There are two boxes here at the AAS, and I'll check 'em if you haven't.

DIGITIZED NEWSPAPERS FOR THE FUTURE--The Cincinnati Enquirer, of course.

---------------------------------------------------------------
KING OF THE KANGAROOS

   Our first "kangaroo court" is from Texas in 1853.  The HORNED FROG was a humor periodical from Galveston, and this might help.

   19 June 1858, THE HORNED FROG (Galveston, Texas), pg. 1, col. 4:
   The King of the Kangaroos is in town--the renowned Col. Kinney.  He is a strange man--full of adventure but was never false to a friend.  He has been the best abused man in the state.  Vituperation has assailed him, but he still lives, and when he does fall, he will fall with his feet to his foes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BROOKLYN EAGLE


  Subj:    RE: Popik RE: Ask a BPLibrarian
  Date:    10/23/2003 10:31:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "Holland, Joy" <J.Holland at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  To:    "'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)



We are still trying to determine how best to approach digitizing the huge amount of information in the Eagle from 1902-1955 (the newspaper grew as it got older.) Also there are copyright issues still to be resolved and funding is not yet in place. So although the Library seems to be committed to moving forward with phase two of this project, the later period will not be available in the very near future. That's the bad news. The good news is that once all of these things are in place the actual digitizing will happen quite quickly.

Other good news, which may or may not be of help to you: we still have the morgue clippings of the Eagle from 1902-1955 so you can give us a subject heading, name or whatever and we can do a search for you. Sometimes we get lucky! You can send me your search terms via email if you like. Of course, if you know the date of the material you are looking for, you can still go to the microfilm, either here at BPL or at NYPL on 42nd St.

Joy Holland
Brooklyn Collection

Question:

What are the plans for the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE online?  When will it be
added to (after 1902)?  I need some information from the 1930s!


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct 23 15:23:28 2003
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:23:28 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00bbbc8f190cfa@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.082328.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recently went to a "Renaissance Faire" in NY State
and neither the costuming or the language seemed
authentic to my untrained eye/ear. It's interesting to
hear that the "originals" were more authentic. What's
the stpory on these things?

Ed

--- Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> >... Is there evidence that this was the earlier
> >term, before "hurrah"?
>
> I'm not sure how accurate their linguistic research
> was, but since
> the original Renaissance Faires started by teacher
> Phyllis Patterson,
> the cheers have always been huzzah.  I do know that
> much of their
> other research, e.g., costuming et al. has been
> pretty accurate to
> the time - late 1500s.
>
> Rima

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 15:47:46 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:47:46 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAE2@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.114746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not supporting the catfish derivation of "skinning a cat" one way
or the other, but skinning a catfish is difficult, so I could see how
it might be the origin of the phrase.

For a big cat (like the channel cats), you hammer a nail through its
head into a heavy board or table-top, then you make knicks near the
head and a perforation all the way around, just below the bony part of
the head, like the line of the top of a sock on a leg. With one or two
pairs of pliers or vise-grips, you grab the sides of the top of that
skin-sock, and you pull it with some force back towards the tail. If
you've used a board instead of a table, someone else has to hold the
board. Catfish skin is tough like leather, so it takes muscles, and
you've got to avoid the whiskers, because they can still get you if the
fish is dead.

Grant


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Oct 23 16:01:28 2003
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:01:28 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.120128.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Skin the Cat as an 'acrobatic feat', e.g., swinging with legs over a
tree branch.
http://www2.kpr.edu.on.ca/cdciw/departments/history/inter033.htm
http://www.sfschool.org/programs/elementary/physed/1_physed.shtml
http://www.theseattlesun.com/0304apr/stanstapp.html

As a yo-yo trick (illustrated):
http://kwos.yoyoing.com/finaltricks/skincat/

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 16:15:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:15:30 -0400
Subject: Kangaroo Court (1852)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.121530.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Tons of "face the music" in 1852, FWIW.

   18 June 1852, WEEKLY JOURNAL (Galveston, Texas), pg. 2, col. 1:
   The Brazos Delta in speaking of the irregularity of the mails says:
   We have had one regular mail in _succession_, within the last six weeks.  It is understood that Judge Foster will hold a Kangaroo Court, to try the Houston mail driver for contempt of Judge Kangaroo the first time he brings through a regular New Orleans mail."


(_Judge_ Kangaroo?  I thought he was a Captain--ed.)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 17:32:09 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:32:09 -0400
Subject: Amazon Full-Text Search of 120,000 Books
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.133209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rejoice in public corpora:

Amazon is making 120,000 of its books full-text searchable on its site.
That is, the contents of the books, not just the metadata. This has
been active for a while already, and it works pretty well. You do your
regular search, and in the results you'll see an excerpt from the
actual page on which the words or phrases were used. Then you can call
up a fuller quote from the work, or even an image of the very page.
Voilà, instant online citation resource. It also allows searching
within a specific book.

How it Works
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/10197021/

Amazon Announcement
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01//books/inside/jeff-letter-2.gif

The main weakness is that the search is not very advanced. For example,
it seems to respect quotes for a phrase search, listing matching
phrases first, but it a) avoids common words like articles and
prepositions. meaning "Missouri mule" and "Missouri on a mule" return
the same results, and b) it also returns non-phrase results, meaning
you still have an unrefined list of results. It returns identical
results for singulars and plurals, no matter which you look for:
"Missouri mule" and "Missouri mules" return the same results, which is
probably better than not doing it.

A minor weakness, one I would hope is amended, is that only 120,000
books are currently searchable. I suspect the dictionaries never will
be, but they've a lot of catching up to do.

Another minor weakness is that the OCR, like most OCR, is imperfect.
There's garbled text here and there.

Still, a good resource.

Grant


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 23 17:44:51 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:44:51 -0700
Subject: more on possessive antecedents
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.104451.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fans of the possessive antecedents discussion might want to look at two
recent postings by me to the group blog at www.languagelog.com.
there's one from 21 october on the idea that sentences like "Einstein's
discoveries made him famous" are ungrammatical in isolation, but ok if
there's an antecedent for the pronoun earlier in the context.  and one
from today about a prediction of this proposal, that there are no
first-mention possessive antecedents (or, at least, that The New Yorker
doesn't permit such things).

both postings have real data in them, and least some linguistics,
though the ratio of ridicule to linguistics is considerably higher in
the second than in the first.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who decided against posting in
multiple places


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 23 18:14:24 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:14:24 -0700
Subject: muleociation (cont. further)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.111424.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

still more from soc.motss on really stupid content checkers:

[chris ambidge]
        I remember reading in some reasonably reliable source - *New
         Scientist* I think - that some scientist had gone to another
         university to give a talk, forgot some material and went
a-googling
         to get other stuff, using an account at the host establishment.

         Alarums and excursions!  Naughty mateial being sought! Send in
         the monobrow security guards!

         It turned out that the no-naughty-content filters were
searching on
         four-character strings, and thought the visiting scientist was
         looking for X-Rated Sites when in fact he was looking for X-Ray
         Crystallography.

         It must have been startling to be confronted with "evidence"
he'd
         been pornsurfing on a host university computer account.

i'm still recovering from the tale of the content checker that
*deleted* offending character strings.  ASSOCIATION would become
OCIATION (and then, if the checker is paranoid about government
agencies, into OTION), ASSIST would turn into IST, ASSASSINATE into
INATE, MASSIVE into MIVE, PASSION into PION, etc.

and what if you tried to get around the deletion of the actual word ASS
by using replacements (this is the "intercourse the penguin" strategy)?
  would new improved versions of the checker delete FUNDAMENT (reducing
FUNDAMENTAL to AL) and BUTT (reducing BUTTER to ER and REBUTTAL to
REAL) and all occurrences of the words BEHIND, BOTTOM, and REAR?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 18:39:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:39:11 -0400
Subject: Kangaroo Court (April 1, 1851)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.143911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't know what to make of the April 1st date.  Is this an April fool?  Was the whole thing invented right here with this story?


   1 April 1851, GALVESTON WEEKLY NEWS (Galveston, Texas), pg. 1, col. 4:
      For the "News."
   BACKWOODS SCENES;
      OR
   REMINISCENCES OF EARLY TIMES IN TEXAS.
   BY SYLVESTER SILVERSIGHT
      No. 1
   A "New Comer" in a Tight Place.
(...)
   Some time in the year 1831, or '32,...
(...)
   "Ta'e him down?  Show him the _varmint_!  Yes, by G-d! we'll introduce him tothe _Kangaroo_!" explained the gruff, but, at times jocose old Captain Leathershirt.
   There was much of truth in the remarks of the old Captain, for, on the very next day--all things necessary forthe occasion having been arranged--the young gentleman _was_, in the most formal manner, shown the _varmint_--"introduced to the _Kangaroo_."  So that our readers may understand what was meant by the allusion to the Kangaroo, we will state that the San Felipeans had regularly organized a _mock_ tribunal, called--a very uncouth appellation, by the bye--the "Supreme Kangaroo Court of San Felipe."  It was to this court that young Spindleshanks was introduced.
(...)
   And they _did_ "invistigate the matter," to the utmost extent of the powers vested in the august _Kangaroo Court_.
(...)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 23 20:14:32 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:14:32 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <200310230823.1acHjl66F3NZFlq0@merlin>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.131432.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Fwd: Re: huzzah
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recently went to a "Renaissance Faire" in NY State
>and neither the costuming or the language seemed
>authentic to my untrained eye/ear. It's interesting to
>hear that the "originals" were more authentic. What's
>the stpory on these things?

My understanding is that Phyllis Patterson, an English teacher,
started the original Renaissance Faire in Southern California a bit
over 30 years ago.  She started The Living History Center to bring,
well, living history to as many people as she could.  She wanted it
to be as historically accurate as possible, taking into consideration
modern hygiene and commercial interests.  Those folks who got
involved had to take classes/workshops in Elizabethan customs,
language, clothing, history, etc.  Every craftsperson could only sell
wares that could conceivably have been made then, and be there to
demonstrate - candlemaking, weaving, blacksmithing, whatever.  You
had to go through costume approval, booth approval, etc. in order to
participate.  Everyone was supposed to know enough to interact
appropriately with the paying customers.

Other, later fairs around the country were "Fantasy Fairs" and as far
as I know, didn't strive for any historical accuracy or knowledge at
all.

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:01:07 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:01:07 -0500
Subject: cat/catfish
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.200107.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:47 AM -0400 10/23/03, Baker, John wrote:
>Gerald,
>         Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself
>can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one
>way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in
>your article?


There are also quotes for "cat" (= catfish) in DARE. As for "...skin a cat,"
my article on this expression quotes two interesting letters to Dear Abby:

1) "Dear Abby: I think you should know that the 'cat' in the phrase
'There's more than one way to skin a cat' refers not to the furry
feline variety, but to the Mississippi mud variety: catfish.
     "Some types of catfish have a smooth, tough, inedible skin
instead of scales, and, therefore, must be skinned--not scaled like
most other fish.  So if you were to ask any number of catfish
aficionados how to prepare this Southern delicacy before cooking, you
will probably hear a variety of methods, hence the expression
'There's more than one way to skin a cat.'
   [signed]: Another Cat Lover"

2) "Dear Abby: Having grown up in Mississippi, the catfish capital of
America, I can tell you that the expression 'There's more than one
way to skin a cat' has nothing whatsoever to do with skinning a cat.
It means skinning a catfish.
        :Catfish have a tough outer skin instead of scales, and
fishermen have long argued about the most efficient method of
skinning a catfish.  And that, Dear Abby, is how that expression came
about.
        [signed] Jack L. Dveirin, New Orleans"


Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:02:30 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:02:30 -0500
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.200230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:47 PM -0400 10/22/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
>for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
>Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
>Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
>probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
>current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
>important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
>get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
>for?


San Francisco Bulletin (with varying titles, e.g. The Bulletin). This
newspaper is critical for the early history of the term "jazz." Also:
San Francisco Examiner
Thanks, Fred.

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:13:24 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:13:24 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.201324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, below my signoff is a message sent to the 19th Century Baseball
discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


>To: 19th Century Egroup <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: Lawrence McCray <mccrayl at bellatlantic.net>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:37:47 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Folks --
>
>[A] First, Deano Thilgen asked,
>22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500:
>
>"My question is, why was cheerleading associated
>with football early on, and less so with baseball?"
>
>----
>
>[B] Then, via Larry Horn, the American Dialect
>Society, thoughtfully offered:
>
>"My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was
>still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated
>with professional players, and cheerleading is something you do in
>school (high school or college). . . . "
>
>[C] And I now wonder:
>
>Well, sorta, but Williams College wasn't alone in playing
>hardball a long long time ago.
>
>Anyone building a General Theory of Cheerleading might
>want to accommodate these small facts [mostly drawn
>from the politically-incorrect century, admittedly]:
>
>[] Cheerleading is absent from college hockey, I think.
>[] To say nothing of college lawn tennis and college golf.
>[] Routinized cheering is said to be common in Japanese baseball.
>[] Routinized cheering [by the players themselves] is common in
>contemporary school-girl softball, at least in these parts.
>[] In the 1970s, [non-orchestrated] cheering was encouraged
>in the World Team Tennis circuit; but it didn't catch on.
>
>The American Dialect Society's explanation of the utterance
>"Sis - boom - bah" is hereby welcomed.
>
>Larry McCray
>
>--------------------------------------
>mccrayL at bellatlantic.net
>phone (703) 534-2238
>fax     (703) 534-1916
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 24 02:52:27 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: cat/catfish
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bbbe22a06eeb@[131.151.65.182]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.225227.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:01 PM -0500 10/23/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>At 10:47 AM -0400 10/23/03, Baker, John wrote:
>>Gerald,
>>         Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself
>>can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one
>>way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in
>>your article?
>
>
>There are also quotes for "cat" (= catfish) in DARE. As for "...skin a cat,"
>my article on this expression quotes two interesting letters to Dear Abby:

Yes, Jerry, but I'm sure you're not advocating that we take these as
constituting evidence for your claim, any more than the thousands of
similar letters and e-mails circulated on any one of a number of
etymythological legends, from spirit and image to the Infanta de
Castile.  I'm not saying that's what we have here, I'm just saying
(as I assume John is above) that it would be nice to have some direct
evidence from the first cites of "skin a cat" on just what sort of
cat was involved.

larry

>
>1) "Dear Abby: I think you should know that the 'cat' in the phrase
>'There's more than one way to skin a cat' refers not to the furry
>feline variety, but to the Mississippi mud variety: catfish.
>     "Some types of catfish have a smooth, tough, inedible skin
>instead of scales, and, therefore, must be skinned--not scaled like
>most other fish.  So if you were to ask any number of catfish
>aficionados how to prepare this Southern delicacy before cooking, you
>will probably hear a variety of methods, hence the expression
>'There's more than one way to skin a cat.'
>   [signed]: Another Cat Lover"
>
>2) "Dear Abby: Having grown up in Mississippi, the catfish capital of
>America, I can tell you that the expression 'There's more than one
>way to skin a cat' has nothing whatsoever to do with skinning a cat.
>It means skinning a catfish.
>        :Catfish have a tough outer skin instead of scales, and
>fishermen have long argued about the most efficient method of
>skinning a catfish.  And that, Dear Abby, is how that expression came
>about.
>        [signed] Jack L. Dveirin, New Orleans"
>
>
>Gerald Cohen


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Oct 24 04:54:58 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:54:58 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.005458.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Larry Horn wrote:
<<My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated with professional players...I think that's the key difference rather than anything intrinsic to the sports themselves, although the opposite position could be defended, no doubt.>>

Basketball and football are not the only school sports, but they are the ones with cheerleading.  They generate mass enthusiasm and audiences, while individual sports--and baseball--are less effective representatives of collegial spirit.  Every football and basketball season  has pep rallies and a "Homecoming" game, but homecoming baseball games are as rare as homecoming gymnastics meets.

Cheerleading goes with football and basketball but not with baseball because, although baseball is a team effort, it has much of the character of individual sports.  Play in baseball follows the ball back and forth between defense and offense in a sequence of individual actions, while the fact of "possession" in football and basketball leads to concerted team efforts that represent school unity, which can in turn be expressed in mass cheers ("Block that kick!").  In the etiquette of individual sports, cheering on the play is regarded as ludicrous and even rude.  While pretty girls in tight sweaters are always welcome, cheers in baseball would be as silly as for tennis ("Break that serve"?) or fencing ("parry that riposte"?).  

Seán Fitzpatrick


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 24 05:51:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:51:48 EDT
Subject: Candy Corn
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.015148.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Candy corn" is not mentioned at all in that great American classic, John
F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
  "Candy corn" is available all over this Halloween season, as usual.  There
are 47,000 Google hits.  There's no mystery about "candy corn."  ProQuest and
Ancestry don't add anything to what you can get off Google.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.hauntedbay.com/history/candycorn.shtml
For those of us over the age of 25, when you think of Halloween candy
you think of candy corn, those sugary little spikes of Halloween cheer.
  They've been around for as long as I remember and even as long as my
 grandparents remember but did you know that they were invented in the
 1880's? Who the first person to make these tasty treats was is unknown
  but the Wunderle Candy Company of Philadelphia was the first to go into
    commercial production. However, the company most closely associated with
       this wonderful confection is the Goelitz Confectionery Company.
Founder         Gustav Goelitz, a German immigrant, began commercial production of
the         treat in 1898 in Cincinnati and is today the oldest manufacturer of
the         Halloween icon.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.germanheritage.com/biographies/atol/goelitz.html
The Goelitz Family: Candy Corn & Jelly Belly

The Early Years

          Shortly after the Civil War, two young brothers came to America
from their                              family home in the Harz Mountain region
of Germany. There were thousands like them, part of the huge wave of European
immigration that began in the 1830s and would well into the 20th century.

                             Gustav Goelitz and his younger brother Albert
traveled to Illinois to join an uncle who had emigrated in 1834. Within two
years, Gustav, 24 and Albert,                      21 opened a candy making
business in a Belleville, Illinois storefront. Gustav made the candy and handled
store operations. Albert sold the candy to the surrounding, towns
             and villages from a horsedrawn wagon. The business did well,
they raised families and opened additional plants. In time, Gustav's sons worked
in the business learning the trade.

    But economic upheaval intervened when the Panic of 1893,
one of the worst depressions in American history, plagued the country for the
next four years. Paper money was double the value of the gold backing it.
Widespread unemployment, falling                  prices and labor unrest
affected the Goelitz Brothers Candy Co. as it did thousands of businesses. Gustav and
Albert were forced to assign assets to creditors and sell the business.
Albert                  stayed on the road selling candy for another company until
his death at the age of 80. Gustav never recovered. He died in 1901, a week
short of his 56th birthday.

                 That was only the beginning. In 1898, Gustav's sons
continued the family tradition and established the candy making company we honor and
celebrate today. For the following                  generations of the Goelitz
family and their partners and in-laws, the Kelleys, making the highest quality
candy is a tradition

The Second Generation: Candy Corn Fame

                      The two eldest sons of Gustav had worked in their
father's candy business,                  then set out on their own. Adolph opened
a Cincinnati based candy company with the help of his friend and neighbor
William Kelley. Soon his brothers, Gus Jr. and Herman, would join him there. In
1901 they hired  Will Kelley's cousin, Edward Kelley, as a bookkeeper. Ed fell
in love with one of the Goelitz sisters, Joanna, and married her, formally
joining the Goelitz and Kelley clans into a family partnership. These family
members    would build the company beyond the wildest dreams of the previous
generation.

The turn of the last century was a good time for the candy business. Over a
thousand candy                  manufacturers in the country employed an
estimated 27,000 workers. Goelitz Confectionery Co. was one which prospered. By
1912, the company was turning away orders for lack of production capacity.


                                A factory town along the north shores of Lake
Michigan offering rail service and                  affordable land was
selected for a new plant. The move to North Chicago was a good one. When the income
tax was introduced in 1913, it forced many mom-and-pop candy makers to keep
business. Many failed, but Goelitz was                  already firmly
established. Butter creams, later known as mellocremes, were the primary products of
the company. While licorice, chocolates and peppermints were also
   available, butter creams kept the business growing for the next five
decades. The single best seller? Candy Corn.

According to tradition, candy corn was invented in the 1880s. Company records
show Goelitz    making candy corn by 1900.

They turned it into a runaway success, and became known for the finest candy
corn on the market.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 24 06:23:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:23:07 EDT
Subject: Pit Beef
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.022307.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Pit beef" is not in Dare and not in John F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Last post before ten hours of parking tickets. I feel sick right now.


(PROQUEEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      THE NATION
    New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1940.
                 p. 68 (1 page):
   Impressive were the statistics of the feast, held just outside the
stadium's wall after the oath-taking was over.  In a great pit beeves were roasted so
the crowd could watch.
(At LSU, in Baton Rouge--ed.)

      MARYLAND DINING
       Kristin Eddy.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).
Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1988.      p. MD12 (1 page):
   _The Canopy_, 9319 Baltimore National Pike,...  Barbecue sandwiches are
the specialty of the house: shredded open pit beef or chicken, or slices of
barbecue beef cooked to order.


      Baltimore
       By MELINDA HENNEBERGER.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).
  New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1995.                   p. XX10 (1 page):
   Stop in Federal Hill for a pit beef sandwich, a local version of barbecue,
(Illegible word.  "Cooked"?--ed.) and served by street vendors,...


      How to Say Barbecue in Baltimore
       STEVEN RAICHLEN.  New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
N.Y.: Jun 28, 2000.    p. F5 (1 page):
   I SPENT the first 18 years of my life in Baltimore, and not once did I eat
pit beef.  I am not particularly proud of this fact, but it does reflect the
parochialism of the region's food.  I grew up in the suburb of Pikesville,
Md., and the foods of my childhood embraced the four C's of Baltimore gastronomy:
crab, corned beef, coddies (leaden cakes of catfish and potatoes) and
chocolate tops (cookies crowned with a rosette of chocolate icing).
   Pit beef came from a working-class neighborhood on the east side of town,
whcih for me might as well have been another planet.
   Pit beef is Baltimore's version of barbecue beef grilled crusty on the
outside, rare and juicy inside and heaped high on a sandwich.  Several things
make it distinctive in the realm of American barbecue.
   For starters, pit beef is grilled, not smoked, so it lacks the heavy
hickory or mesquite flavor characteristic of Texas- or Kansas-city-style barbecue.
it is also ideally served rare, which would be unthinkable for a Texas-style
brisket.  Baltimore pit bosses use top round, not brisket, and to make this
flavorful but tough cut of beef tender, they shave it paper-thin on a meat
slicer.
   Then there's the bread, the proper way to serve pit beef is on a kaiser
roll or, more distinctively, on rye bread.  The caraway seeds in the rye reflect
the Eastern European ancestry of many Baltimoreans in this part of town and
add an aromatic, earthy flavor to the beef.
   Finally, there is the sauce.  No ketchup, brown sugar and liquid smoke, as
you would find in Kansas City.  No Texas-style chili hellfire or piquant
vinegar sauces in the style of North Carolina.  The proper condiment for baltimore
pit beef is horseradish sauce--as much as you can bear without crying.  And
speaking or crying, you need slices of crisp, pungent white onion to make the
sandwich complete.
   The center of Baltimore pit beef is an industrial thoroughfare called
Pulaski Highway, also known as Route 40.  As you drive east out of the city, you
pass truck stops, tractor dealerships and inexpensive motels.  Nestled among
them are the simple roadside eateries that purvey pit beef.


(ANCESTRY)
   22 August 1958, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg.7?, col. 7:
   Pit Beef barbecue under the supervision of Walter A. Simpson.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 24 17:01:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:01:17 -0400
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.130117.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green writes, concerning Three Times Three a Tiger: FWIW I offer this proposed etymology, culled from the Bulletin  (Sydney,Australia).
1900 Bulletin (Sydney) 30 Jun. Red Page/2:  Tradition and custom hold that the ‘tiger’ is a howl which accentuates the cheers and intensifies the applause.  The best of several ‘origins’ tells how, early in this century, an American politician, S.S. Prentiss, was stumping the country, and came to a town where there was a small menagerie on exhibition.  This he hired for a day and threw it open to all-comers, availing himself of the occasion to make a political speech.  The orator, holding a 10ft. pole, stood on the tiger’s cage, in the roof of which there was a hole, and whenever the multitudes applauded one of his ‘points’ with three cheers, Prentiss poked the tiger, who uttered a harsh roar. From this 'three cheers and a tiger' spread over the country.

The politician in question is evidently Seargent Smith Prentiss, a congressman from Mississippi in the early 19th C.  There is an article on him in the Dictionary of National Biography, but not in the more recent American National Biography.  He should also be in the Biographical Directory of the American Congress, which, at the moment, isn't available to me.
The following books might authenticate this story:

The life and times of Seargent Smith Prentiss, by Joseph D. Shields. -- Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott, 1883.
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Shields, J. D. Life and times of Seargent Smith Prentiss)

Prentiss, George L., 1816-1903.  A memoir of S.S. Prentiss, Edited by his brother. New York : C. Scribner's sons, [c1855]  2 v.
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Prentiss, G. L. Memoir of S. S. Prentiss)

Seargent S. Prentiss, Whig orator of the old South, by Dallas C.  Dickey. Baton Rouge, La., Louisiana state university press, 1945.  422 p.   (Southern biography series)
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Dickey, D. C. Seargent S. Prentiss)

None of them are at Bobst, which is this instance fails to show itself as one of the great libraries south of 14th street.  All are at the NYPL and I will look at them there some one of these days, unless Barry beats me to it.

I will say that it was not uncommon for menageries with exotic animals to travel the country in Prentiss's day, so that the idea that there should be a caged tiger in the back-woods of Mississippi isn't impossible.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA  Fri Oct 24 23:14:42 2003
From: PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA (Pamela Medland)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:14:42 -0700
Subject: Do you know the origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.161442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good afternoon.
Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "the civilized hours?" This
was submitted as a query to the National Library of Canada on behalf of
a patron of my library, but the reference staff at NLC were unable to
locate the source of the phrase. They suggested I post this query on the
listserve. Please reply directly to me at pmedland at virl.bc.ca if you can
assist.
Thank you for your consideration,
Pam Medland


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 24 23:59:33 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:59:33 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college(1897)
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.195933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ancestry strikes again.  Barry, of course, has dibs on the origin of "hot
dog" from college slang in 1895.

But I found a non-college(I think) cite from the Middletown(NY) Daily Argus,
May 27, 1897.  page (not readable), col. 4.

<"Jakey" Newmark, proprietor the the portable lunch business which has been
a familiar landmark on East Main street the past year or so, received all
sorts of consolation, Tuesday night, from the bicycle boys who frequent his
place.  "Jakey" says he didn't pay the $100 license imposed by the Common
Council because he was advised not to do so by an official high in authority
at that time.  "Jakey's" opponents are restaurant men, who claim that men
frequent the "hot dog wagon" who formerly patronized them, and a consequent
falling off in their business has resulted.  That "Jakey" should pay a
good-sized license if allowed to use the highway is the sense of most
Middletowners.>

I asked Gerald Cohen if this was early for a non-college cite, and his reply
is reproduced below.  Evidently it is the first non-college usage.

SC


From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at umr.edu>
To: "Sam Clements" <sclements at neo.rr.com>
Cc: <Bapopik at aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: "hot dog wagon" (1897)


> Sam,
>    This looks significant. The earliest evidence I have thus far for "hot
dog" outside of a college context is 1898 (in the Hull Beacon newspaper of
Nantasket Beach)--article by Dennis R. Means in Comments on Etymology, April
1998, pp. 2-4.  Your 1897 attestation antedates this by a year.
>
> Best. --- Jerry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sat Oct 25 00:18:31 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:18:31 -0400
Subject: cat/catfish
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.201831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Further on skinning cats:  Making of America has this passage from page 166 of "'Way down East; or, Portraitures of Yankee life," by Seba Smith (1792 - 1868), with a date of "c1854":

        >>This is a money digging world of ours; and, as it is said, "there are more ways than one to skin a cat," so are there more ways than one of digging for money.<<

        New England ("down East") is not generally associated with the kind of catfish that have to be skinned.  Unless earlier citations from catfish country can be produced, then, it is probable that the phrase refers to skinning our familiar mammalian cats, even though, as Jerry points out, catfish do require skinning and regular cats do not.

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 01:11:38 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:11:38 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college(1897)
In-Reply-To: <001501c39a8a$e0421f60$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.211138.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Sam Clements wrote:

> Ancestry strikes again.  Barry, of course, has dibs on the origin of "hot
> dog" from college slang in 1895.
>
> But I found a non-college(I think) cite from the Middletown(NY) Daily Argus,
> May 27, 1897.  page (not readable), col. 4.

When I search ProQuest I get the following:

1896 _Wash. Post_ 13 Feb. 6  One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine
Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their
alleged grievances.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 01:37:31 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:37:31 -0400
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242103100.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.213731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.

1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 02:17:03 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:17:03 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Frankfurter"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242128101.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.221703.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

frankfurter (OED 1894)

[1879 _National Police Gazette_ 6 Dec. 14  You have doubtless heard about
the inexperienced husband who came home at the milkman's hour deathly
sick, and who, upon being interrogated by his wife, owned up to sixty
beers during the night, and laid the sickness to one Frankfurter sausage.
They always _did_ disagree with him.]

1885 _New York's Great Industries_ 264  Albert Peiser, Curator of Choice
Beef, No. 1361 Third Avenue. -- A house exclusively devoted to the curing
of the best and choicest cuts of beef, etc., is that of Mr. Albert Peiser,
who established this enterprise in 1880.  He deals extensively in smoked
and pickled tongues, briskets, Frankfurters, Viennas, bolognas, boulard
and cervelat.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 25 03:03:45 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:03:45 -0400
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242128101.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.230345.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:37 PM 10/24/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
>Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
>'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
>mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
>"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
>a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.
>
>1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
>Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
>advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
>If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
>Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
>shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
>cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
>to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
>never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
>(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
>idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.

It MAY imply "dogs" = "sausages", but maybe not.

Imagine the same joke with "sausage shop" replaced with "chow mein shop"
for example, in which case it would be read to imply (yuk, yuk)  that dogs
would be in supply at such a shop, presumably for inclusion in the cuisine
(without implying that the chow mein was named or called "dog[s]"). The
passage as given above may imply only that dogs were considered a likely
component of sausages ... and they were so considered, in that epoch and
since -- humorously and otherwise.

"We don't deal in dogs" tends to favor the possibility of "dogs" =
"sausages" but "Martini never left his dog ..." tends to contradict it
IMHO. Furthermore I believe "deal in dogs" could be read as "buy dogs"
(with or without "sell dogs").

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 14:26:34 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:26:34 -0400
Subject: Saying About Translation
In-Reply-To: <143.1a168475.2cbbac09@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.102634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a proverbial saying that translations are like wives (or women),
they are either beautiful or faithful.  Can anyone help me trace early
examples of this?  I have misplaced my copy of David Crystal, _Words on
Words_; if someone has this handy, perhaps Crystal sheds some light on
this question.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Sat Oct 25 14:55:34 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:55:34 +0100
Subject: Saying About Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.155534.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'Translations, like wives, are seldom faithful if they are in the least
attractive.'
Roy Campbell. Poetry Review (June/July 1949)


Jonathon Green


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 16:28:50 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:28:50 -0500
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.112850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   My thanks to the ads-l researchers who are ferreting out early
attestations of "hot dog." I'll include these items (with due credit)
in the "hot dog" bibliography I'm currently compiling.

   Meanwhile, the material needs to be examined to see just what it tells us.

   I'll start with the following item:

    At 9:37 PM -0400 10/24/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Subject:      "Hot Dog" in 1872?
>
>All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
>Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
>'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
>mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
>"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
>a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.
>
>1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
>Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
>advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
>If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
>Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
>shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
>cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
>to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
>never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
>(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
>idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.
>
>Fred Shapiro

   IMHO, we do not deal here with an early usage of "dog" (= sausage)
but rather with the popular 19th century belief that dog-meat turns
up at least occasionally in sausages. In other words, there's no
evidence prior to college slang of 1895 of anyone eating a sausage
and referring to it as a "dog" or "hot dog."

  French Ecole d'Orgue (Organ School) of course sounds roughly like
English A [rhymes with MAY} COL[D] DOG. So when the non-French
speaking music salesman hears that the customer wants A COLD DOG, he
obviously thinks of a dead dog soon to be turned into sausages. Hence
the salesman's indignant: "This is no sausage shop. This is a music
store....You must be crazy..."  This doesn't make for an early
attestation of "dog" (= sausage); it constitutes only one more piece
of evidence (in an already considerable collection) of dogs being
viewed as about to be turned into sausages.

    Here are a few more illustrations taken from Barry Popik's research:

1844 -- Boston Post, Oct. 30, 1844, p. 2, col. 2:
        'Dog cheap -- Sausages at six cents a pound.'

1846 -- New York Globe, Aug. 22, 1846, p. 2, col. 4:
        '"Hog or dog! -- that's the question," as the fellow said
when he sat     down to a dish of fried sausages.'

Gerald Cohen

P.S. The more I read the Ecole d'Orgue joke, the more I appreciate it.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Oct 25 18:59:08 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:59:08 -0400
Subject: Do you know the origin?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.145908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Definition 2 in OED2 adequately covers the sense of _civilized hour(s)_.
The first citation from OED2 is from 1654.  However, the earliest quote if
have found so far for "civilized hour" is from The New York Times (Aug. 4,
1929):

"The afternoon concerts begin at 6, the evening concerts at 10.  One has
dinner at the highly civilized hour of 1 A.M. or thereabout, after the
concert."

I suspect that there are examples out there from earlier dates.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Pamela Medland <PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA>
>Subject:      Do you know the origin?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Good afternoon.
>Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "the civilized hours?" This
>was submitted as a query to the National Library of Canada on behalf of
>a patron of my library, but the reference staff at NLC were unable to
>locate the source of the phrase. They suggested I post this query on the
>listserve. Please reply directly to me at pmedland at virl.bc.ca if you can
>assist.
>Thank you for your consideration,
>Pam Medland
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 21:40:10 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:40:10 -0500
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.164010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:11 PM -0400 10/24/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>When I search ProQuest I get the following:
>
>1896 _Wash. Post_ 13 Feb. 6  One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine
>Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their
>alleged grievances.


Somewhere in my pile of "hot dog" notes is a cartoon which conveys
the idea that Indians eat dogs. The 1896 Washington Post item quoted
just above looks very much like a joke (rather than a bona fide news
item). And "hot dogs" here almost certainly refers to cooked canines
rather than to sausages.

   Feb. 6, 1896 is about 5 months after the first attestations of "hot
dog"appeared (at Yale, Oct. 19, 1895; discovered by Barry Popik), so
there was sufficient time for this new term to spread among humorists
and make its way into the above Washington-Post joke.

     This joke has two important elements:

1) It employs a very new, irreverent, slang item ("hot dog") and is
therefore lexically up-to-date, hip.

2) The presence of Indians notifies the reader that "hot dog" is here
to be understood literally.

   The joke is therefore doubly irreverent: 1) towards the eating
habits of Indians, 2) towards purists in the use of language (the
witty and gross neologism "hot dog" = hot sausage).

    This is all very un-PC. But such was humor in those unenlightened times.

    So, does this 1896 quote provide the first attestation of "hot
dog" outside a college context? That's hard to answer. We deal
primarily with the meaning "cooked canine" and an underlying bit of
college humor ("hot dog" = hot sausage). I prefer to set this example
aside in the search for the earliest non-college attestation of "hot
dog" and instead give the honors to one in which "hot dog"
unambiguously refers to hot sausages. But I understand how others
might decide differently, and I'll include the above attestation in
the upcoming compilation of "hot dog" material.

Gerald Cohen


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct 25 22:47:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:47:15 -0400
Subject: Ice Cream(Cone) 1904-almost
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.184715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As another piece of the puzzle, I found further evidence about the cone
being at first a "waffle," only this attestation, in addition to tracing it
to the 1904 Worlds Fair, comes from a contemporary account in 1904.

>From Ancestry.com, Washington Post(DC), September 4, 1904, page 5, col. 3,
in a Sunday article on the Fair:

<NEW DAINTIES TO EAT>

<One of the latest innovations which is extremely popular is the idea of
selling ice cream encased in a funnel-shaped waffle of delicious taste.  The
novelty of the idea, the delicacy of the article, all add to the popularity
of this combination of ice cream and cake.>

To me this kind of story,  which was written while the fair was still
occurring?, speaks so matter-of-factly about eating ice cream out of such a
cone, that it would put the kibosh on those who claim that it was a
spur-of-the-moment invention from vendors at the fair.

I found the above cite while looking for "Cotton Candy."  The article also
tells about what we(in the US) know as Cotton Candy today, but calls it
"candy cotton."   The archives show that Barry found a 1905 cite for the
"Cotton Candy Machine Co." in the trademark list.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 25 23:05:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:05:20 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.190520.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?

CANDY CORN (continued)--Not in OED, of course.  There are even generic "candy corn," but according to the latest information just published in "America's finest news source," THE ONION, generic candy corn will give you AIDS!

http://www.theonion.com/3941/opinion1.html
Once again, Halloween season is upon us, and with it, the wonderful anticipation of dressing up and trick-or-treating for delicious Brach's candy. With that in mind,  it's important to remember all the ways that you can make your Halloween safer and more fun. It won't put a damper on anyone's holiday spirits to wear high-visibility costumes when going from house to house, to have kids trick-or-treat with an adult, and to inspect all candy for tampering. Perhaps most importantly, keep in mind that eating just a single kernel of candy corn manufactured by a company other than Brach's Confections will give you a deadly case of full-blown AIDS.

PIT BEEF--I checked the Baltimore Yellow Pages for 1980.  Pg. 637, col. 3:
GUIDE  Restaurants Grouped by Cuisine...
   BARBECUE
TEXS PIT BAR-B-QUE
Ribs--Beef--Sausage--Chicken--
Hame Eat In Or Carry Out
Full Bar Service--Charge Cards
   518 N RitchleHwy GlenBurnle...761-7900
WOODY'S INN
Open Fire--Hickory Cooked Barbeque
   8228 Pulaski Hwy...687-9713
(That's it!  Everything!--ed.)

OT:  MY LIFE IS OFFICIALLY A JOKE--Found under my door:
October 21, 2003
Dear Residents:
Please be aware that we will be filming a new (as yet untitled) Comedy Central program in and around 225 East 57th Street on November 1st through November 4th.  The majority of filming will take place in one of the building apartments, though we will need to film the entrance of the building a bit. (...)
Joe De Vito
Production Manager, Comedy Central

(I knew I shouldn't have told them that I killed Kenny...I don't quite think they'll use my apartment for an episode of THE MAN SHOW...If they need a title, maybe they should go with WRETCHED LITTLE CRAMPED APARTMENT OF THE MOST PATHETIC MAN ON EARTH--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 23:07:54 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:07:54 -0500
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.180754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:05 PM -0400 10/25/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Subject:      Re: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
>
>    I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?


Sorry, below my signoff is Barry's full message once more.

Gerald Cohen



>  Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:07:29 -0500
>  Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List <ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu>
>  Comments:     cc: ASMITH1946 at aol.com
>  From:         Bapopik at AOL.COM
>  Subject:      Missouri-Show Me (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST)
>  Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>      Greetings from the Library of Congress.  They don't officially
>subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST.  Send
>your queries now.
>
>  HOT DOG
>     13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6:
>     One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large
>number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged
>grievances.
>  (Whew!  That's close!--ed.)
>
>  WINDY CITY
>     13 July 1887, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2.
>  (Not close--ed.)
>
>  BIG APPLE
>     20 September 1924, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
>     SPOT CASH a two-time winner around the big apple...
>  (A horse-racing column.  Fitz Gerald's brother wrote for the
>WASHINGTON POST.  Pretty darn close--ed.)
>
>  MISSOURI--SHOW ME
>     9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 27:
>        _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._
>  _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._
>  From the Philadelphia Times.
>     "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me."
>     That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as
>he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou.
>
>  (Cut about seven paragraphs to end of story.  I believe this
>article is our earliest and pre-dates the Trans-Mississippi
>Exposition in Omaha and the song, both in 1897--ed.)
>
>     "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see
>daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped.
>I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!"
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 25 23:19:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:19:20 -0400
Subject: Slugburger (1989)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.191920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 � �  "Slugburger" is not in that great work known as (you know the rest by now) John F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
 � �  DARE ends at P-Sk.�  Whatcha got?
    I looked in the Corinth (Mississippi) Yellow Pages under "Restaurants," but failed to find a "slugburger" in even a mid-1990s directory.  But it dates from 1918??
 � � � � �
 SLUGBURGER--124 Google hits
 SLUG BURGER--21 Google hits
 �
(GOOGLE)
 http://www.ouraaa.com/traveler/0107/festivals_for.html
 What’s a slugburger?

 Before heading to the 14th annual Slugburger Festival, July 12-14 in Corinth, Miss., you might want to know that slugburgers are not made from the terrestrial gastropod mollusk of the same name.

 According to the “Gourmand’s Guide to Dining in and Around Corinth,” a slugburger is “a burger made of a mixture of beef and some form of cheaper breading extender, which is then deep-fat fried to a golden brown instead of grilled as a common hamburger.” In the past, cornmeal was the most common extender and lard was used for frying; today, soybean meal is the extender of choice and vegetable oil is used for frying.
 �
 (PHOTO CAPTION: The Slugburger fesdtival in Corinth, Miss, may not have an appetizing name, but the centerpiece of the celebration is delicious. It's a burger made of beef and breading and then deep fried. /Mississippi Tourism photo    )
 �
 “The standard garnish for a slugburger is mustard, pickle and an ample dose of onions. Good manners requires everyone to partake at the same time so that afterward everyone’s breath is equally offensive,” the guide stated.

 The origin of the slugburger name is a matter of local debate. For many years, slugburgers were sold for a nickel and a slang expression for a nickel was a slug, hence the most common explanation for the name. Another popular explanation is that if you overindulge, you might feel as though someone slugged you in the stomach.

 Other featured foods include funnel cakes and fried green tomatoes.

 The Slugburger Festival is the major fundraiser for the Main Street Corinth downtown revitalization program. The Alcorn County Courthouse will be the site of the carnival, local entertainment and food vendors, while the celebrity headliners will perform on the nearby main stage.

 For more information, call (662) 287-1550, 1-877-347-0545 or visit www.slugburger.com online.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      SLUGBURGER FESTIVAL WILL BEGIN THURSDAY
              Times - Picayune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       New Orleans, La.: Jul 14, 1992.                   p. B.2:


      Celebration pays tribute to city's tasty slugburger
              Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Houston, Tex.: Jun 4, 1989.                   p. 34:
    CORINTH, Miss. - The poor man's hamburger will be honored with the Second Annual Downtown Corinth Slugburger Festival.

    The celebration pays tribute to Corinth's favorite delicacy, the slug, a deep-fried patty made from a soybean and meat mixture. A slugburger is most often served with onion, pickle and mustard.

    Last year, locals traced the history of the slugburger as far as 1918. That was the year meat market owner William R. McEwen and restaurant proprietor John Weeks devised a recipe to use unsaleable meat trimmings.

    Some of the athletic events scheduled last year were the slug-on-a-spatula relay, the slug squash, the slug-toss, the build-a-slug scavenger hunt and the slugburger eating contest. Most of the events had to be canceled because of lack of interest.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 00:00:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:00:40 -0400
Subject: Pitchfork Fondue (1988)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.200040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PITCHFORK FONDUE--733 Google hits
 �  There are only 17 Google Groups hits, from 23 April 1997. � It's somewhat new, but catching on fast.
 �  I checked the Yellow Pages of the Bismarck (North Dakota) telephone book, but I couldn't find a restaurant serving this in the mid-1990s.
 �  Is it from North Dakota? � South Dakota? � Montana? � Wyoming? � Saskatchewan?
 �  �  �
 �
(GOOGLE)
http://www.pitchforkfondue.com/story.htm
In �  �  �  �  �  �  � the 1960s beef fondue for dinner was a treat our family enjoyed. Small �  �  �  �  �  �  � chunks of beef were cooked on forks then dipped in "fondue sauces" �  �  �  �  �  �  � before eating. The only problem with this procedure was the time it �  �  �  �  �  �  � took to cook the meat, and the length of time you had to wait between �  �  �  �  �  �  � bites while the others cooked their meat. One evening Darrell commented �  �  �  �  �  �  � " Someday I am going to figure out a way to have beef fondue without �  �  �  �  �  �  � starving"! And many years later, he did!
 �
Darrell �  �  �  �  �  �  � decided to look for a large cast iron cauldron to use for a "fondue �  �  �  �  �  �  � pot", thinking a pitchfork would be ideal to thread the steaks onto �  �  �  �  �  �  � the tines for cooking. Ironically, the first cauldron came from our �  �  �  �  �  �  � Aunt Helen at the Big Trails Ranch near Tensleep, Wyoming. Uncle Jack �  �  �  �  �  �  � had bought her a "pot" at an auction-to plant geraniums in!! Darrell �  �  �  �  �  �  � later found another cauldron on the farm of our sister-in-law, Kay, �  �  �  �  �  �  � in Nebraska, which had belonged to her father.
 �
In �  �  �  �  �  �  � the mid-eighties, Darrell and Verna began catering "Pitchfork Fondue" �  �  �  �  �  �  � for an occasional wedding reception, Fourth of July celebration or �  �  �  �  �  �  � family reunion. Then requests came from organizations across Wyoming, �  �  �  �  �  �  � and later from regional and national groups having meetings here in �  �  �  �  �  �  � the Equality State. One that we remember well, was a dinner for members �  �  �  �  �  �  � of the Wyoming Legislature hosted by the Wyoming Association of Conservation �  �  �  �  �  �  � Districts in Cheyenne, Wy. in a blizzard in January. Outdoor cooking �  �  �  �  �  �  � was intended for nicer weather!
 �
Another �  �  �  �  �  �  � was for the Western Regional Deans of Agriculture and Directors of �  �  �  �  �  �  � Extension for seventeen states including Alaska, Hawaii and the territory �  �  �  �  �  �  � of Guam, at the University of Wyoming Research Center in Grand Teton �  �  �  �  �  �  � National Park, in August. They presented Darrell with a formal resolution �  �  �  �  �  �  � commending him for a gastronomical dinner and his hospitality.

It �  �  �  �  �  �  � was on a camping trip in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming that �  �  �  �  �  �  � Darrell, our oldest son, Jay, and friend, Dennis Baker of Iowa began �  �  �  �  �  �  � talking about establishing Pitchfork Fondue as a seasonal business �  �  �  �  �  �  � in a permanent location. Later Darrell felt that God showed him Jackson �  �  �  �  �  �  � Hole was the place to begin. In the summer of 1997, a corporation �  �  �  �  �  �  � was formed and Pitchfork Fondue was set up on a working cattle ranch �  �  �  �  �  �  � outside of Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
 �
Guests �  �  �  �  �  �  � came from near and far to savor juicy tender steaks cooked in just �  �  �  �  �  �  � minutes on the tines of a pitchfork, accompanied by our family's favorite �  �  �  �  �  �  � fondue sauces. Another specialty, hot homemade potato chips, were �  �  �  �  �  �  � devoured with gusto. Fresh fruit salad, crisp lettuce salad, rolls,beverages �  �  �  �  �  �  � and homemade brownies and lemon bars complemented the meat and potatoes.
 �
In �  �  �  �  �  �  � the spring of 2000, Pitchfork Fondue moved to Pinedale, Wy. and is �  �  �  �  �  �  � now located at the Pinedale Rodeo Grounds, one-eighth mile south of �  �  �  �  �  �  � town. This site is also the location of the world famous Green River �  �  �  �  �  �  � Rendezvous and the Rendezvous Rodeo held annually the 2nd weekend �  �  �  �  �  �  � in July

 �  �  �  �  �
(GOOGLE)
http://www.mervspitchforkfondue.com/
Howdy! �  � My name is Merv Brandt and I’d like to introduce you to Saskatchewan’s exciting new concept in catering ... “Merv’s Pitchfork Fondue”!
 �
 � While traveling in the northern part of the province in the spring of 1991 I came across a small hotel that offered a ‘pitchfork fondue’. Well I had to try this out. I enjoyed the meal and was so intrigued by the concept that I decided to modify the idea and literally take it on the road. I spent a whole year developing the � traveling forty gallon cast iron cooker and searching out generations old recipes. I’m a Regina boy, and still do a bit of farming, so I know what it takes to please a prairie appetite.�  � � �
 �
 �
(GOOGLE)
http://www.buffalochip.com/fondue.html
PITCHFORK FONDUE We know this is going to come as a shock to you, but many of the folks who work at the Chip wear chaps of a different variety when you're not here. Folks who work in fields and on prairies don't leave the table hungry. � If they do, you didn't cook enough. � From branding parties, Barbecues, cookouts, campouts and backyards comes the fine-tuned outdoor phenomenon of Pitchfork Fondue.

 From a bunch of high plains South Dakota comes some cowboy chefs who take a big old slab of prime ranch-raised Dakota buffalo steak, poke it on the end of a pitchfork, then sear it in a custom-made tank full of specially blended savory oils known only to them. � The searing seals in the meat's juices and keeps the oils outside. It is unbelievable. � You can't find a more tender steak anywhere!
 �
 �
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � Clinton Tries To Recapture '92 Campaign
 �  �  �  By TODD S. PURDUM. �  �  �  New York Times � (1857-Current file). �  �  �  New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1995. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. A1 (2 pages):
 �  BILLINGS, Mont., June 1--(...) At the 7,000-acre wheat ranch of Les Auer, where President Clinton paused outside this central Montana city for a noontime chat and a lunch of "pitchfork fondue" and Rocky Mountain oysters with local politicians, farmers and cattlemen, his motorcade froze the narrow road solid and a security helicopter swept across the Big Sky overhead.
 �
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � BARBECUE BATTLE RAGES OVER WHICH MEAT AND SAUCE ARE BEST
 �  �  �  Eleanor Ostman, Knight-Ridder Newspapers. �  �  �  Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). �  �  �  Chicago, Ill.: Jul 21, 1988. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. 9.D �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
(...)
Ellis says there is a form of barbecue in California known as Santa Maria-style. "It goes back to round-ups in the Mexican days when they'd take three-inch-thick slabs of top sirloin, thread them on iron skewers and turn them over red oak coals. "Yet today, the meat is sliced thin and served on bread with a local variety of pinto beans on the side," Ellis said.

I was in the Black Hills recently, and a motel owner told me about a cowboy diner famous for its sirloin tips. They're not smothered in gravy; South Dakota sirloin tips are deep-fried. Ellis knows why: "They call it pitchfork fondue, and the meat is often fried in beef suet. They know the fat is hot enough when a match dropped into it ignites. The technique dates back to the covered wagon days when suet was kept in a black iron kettle. After being used for cooking, it would solidify and they'd hang the pot on the wagon to take to the next campfire."
 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � MAKING MOST OF NORTH DAKOTA
 �  �  �  Adam Z. Horvath 1995, Newsday. �  �  �  St. Louis Post - Dispatch (pre-1997 Fulltext). �  �  �  St. Louis, Mo.: Aug 20, 1995. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. 03.T:
I'VE LANDED in a place you'd never think to go: a prairie mecca of sauerkraut pizza and buffalo hot dogs, of bull-a-ramas and pitchfork fondues; where sunshine and hailstorms take unpredictable turns blasting the fascinating but wind-swept landscape - and the fascinating but wind-swept people.
 �


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 00:30:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:30:07 -0400
Subject: Baltimoron (1979)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BALTIMORON--891 Google hits,
                      1,280 Google Groups hits, to 1990

   I came across "Baltimoron" while looking through Baltimore cuisine.  It--like "Masshole"--is not in the HDAS.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Homesick
       WILLIAM MAXWELL WOOD Washington.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 24, 1979.                   p. G6 (1 page):
   I am a native Baltimorean (or Baltimoron) and return frequently.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 00:32:26 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:32:26 -0400
Subject: Saying About Translation
In-Reply-To: <000701c39b08$0d36e190$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203226.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'Translations, like wives, are seldom faithful if they are in the least
>attractive.'
>Roy Campbell. Poetry Review (June/July 1949)
>
A couple of possible sources for the disjunctive version:

http://www.cali.co.uk/users/freeway/courthouse/sirthom.html
"The twentieth-century critic Bernard Levin has said that
translations, like women, are either belle or fidèle (either
beautiful or faithful) but rarely both."

http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/theory/lectures/2001_01_18_history.pdf
Naturally, in an age when translation flourishes, it is regarded as
fundamentally
possible. Translation is commonly described at this time as changing
clothes, as transporting
something in a container, or as pouring a liquid from one vessel into
another. The inside-
outside imagery refers back to theories which conceive of linguistic
form as the outward cover
of an inner, transportable meaning, and thus affirm translatability.
Cast in mimetic terms a
translation is a painted copy, a portrait, or indeed a copy of a
copy, in that the original itself
was already an imitation of nature.
But as Quintilian already remarked, the copy is inferior to its
model. Value judgments
become part of the picture. Translation may be cast as no more than a
partial copy preserving
only the outward form, not the original's inner energy or power, just
as a portrait painter can
copy only the sitter's visible shape, not his or her soul; it is a
rough drawing after the life, a
distorted likeness; a faint echo; a reflected light, like that of the
moon rather than the sun; a
shadow rather than a substance; a disfigured or mutilated body, a
corpse, a carcass, a mummy
(e.g. Anne Dacier in 1699); the reverse side of a tapestry (Lazare de
Baïf in 1537; famously
Cervantes in Don Quixote part two,1615); a muddy stream rather than
clear water (Nicholas
Haward, 1564); fools' gold, or false pearls in place of diamonds (De
la Pinelière, 1635).
This is also where the gendered images come in. The first occurrence
I know of dates from 1603, when the English translator John Florio
apologizes for his translations ("this defective edition") as
"reputed females, delivered at second hand." Around the middle of the
seventeenth century translations are notoriously compared to women:
they can be either beautiful or faithful but not both ("belles
infidèles", after Gilles Ménage's witty remark about Perrot
d'Ablancourt ca. 1654, first attested in writing in translation - in
a Latin letter by the Dutchman Constantijn Huygens).
==================
[but technically, as we should have known, the disjunction REALLY
applies only to Frenchwomen...]

http://personal.vsnl.com/bhargava/BTDeftDefinitions.html
TRANSLATION It is like a French lady. It can either be beautiful or faithful.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 00:34:07 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:34:07 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
In-Reply-To: <593F9D66.234F1258.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?

Sorry.  I had thought Barry would have been likely to have found this, but
I did an archives search and missed it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Oct 26 01:10:42 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:10:42 -0500
Subject: Saying About Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.201042.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not quite what you asked or Jonathon Green gave you, but a Venezeulan room
mate, about 1963, gave me "Tradutore son traidore" - "translators are
traitors."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>


There is a proverbial saying that translations are like wives (or women),
they are either beautiful or faithful.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 01:22:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:22:56 -0400
Subject: Foodgasm (2001); Porketta (1983); It's It (1928); Scooter Pie
 (1959)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.212256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FOODGASM

FOODGASM--151 Google hits,
                       37 Google Groups hits.

    "Foodgasm" appears to have been coined by a person on the "Straight Dope."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
[alt.fan.cecil-adams] Re: Mixing food flavors
 ... orange cheesecake with chocolate sauce. Yummy. Oh my oh my oh my oh
 my ... I think I just had a foodgasm. I think that's "oralgasm" <g ...
alt.humor.best-of-usenet - Mar 23, 2001 by ChrisAct at nwlink.com - View Thread (1 article)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PORKETTA

PORKETTA--967 Google hits,
                    148 Google Groups hits.

   A very popular dish in Minnesota.  There's a trademark for a product, but the dish is really "porchetta."


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 PORKETTA
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: blend of spices.
FIRST USE: 19830101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
74119136
 Filing Date
November 29, 1990
 Published for Opposition
 August 13, 1991
 Registration Number
1663561
 Registration Date
November 5, 1991
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) BAMBINO, INC. CORPORATION IDAHO 5602 Fairview Avenue Boise IDAHO 83706
 Attorney of Record
J.W. Gipple
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 8 (6-YR).  SECTION 8(10-YR) 20020727.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   20020727
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: WWIntSales (wwintsales at aol.com)
Subject: Re: REQ: Porketta?
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
Date: 1996/02/22
I too am from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where "porketta" is indeed
commonplace.  I believe most everyone had the butcher spice it for them.
The local taverns serve porketta sandwiches that are excellent!  I think
the primary spice is coarsely ground black pepper.  Italian type spices
such as rosemary, etc. are also prominent.

Sarah

(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      Buy 'em or bake 'em, but try some porketta
       Helen Dollaghan.       Denver Post (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Denver, Colo.: May 17, 1995.                   p. E.02
Dear Helen: I have enjoyed your column for many years but this is the first time I've submitted a recipe to you. I have such a flavorful recipe for porketta I'm sending it along in the hope you can use it. It's from my "Jenn-Aire Complete Cooking Cookbook." It is wonderful as written or can be adapted to a roast that is not rolled, coating just the outside.

I usually use my mortar and pestle to make a finer combination of seasonings (they seem to stay on the outside better) and to get the fullest flavor possible from the spices.

I usually bake my roast in the oven at 350 degrees instead of on a spit, and watch the meat thermometer for proper timing. - C. Heitman, Colorado Springs

PORKETTA

>From "Jenn-Aire Complete Cooking

Cookbook"

1 boneless, rolled, tied pork shoulder roast (3 1/2 to 4 pounds)

1/2 cup snipped fresh parsley

2 teaspoons minced garlic

2 teaspoons dried dill weed

1 teaspoon fennel seed, crushed

1 teaspoon dried rosemary leaves, crushed

1/4 teaspoon salt

1/4 teaspoon pepper

Coating (recipe follows)

*Remove strings or netting from roast and unroll. Trim excess fat from surface. Remove any inside pockets of fat.

Combine all filling ingredients. Rub filling into inside surface of roast. Reroll roast jelly roll fashion. Retie with string. Rub coating evenly on surface of roast.

(For spicier flavor refrigerate overnight and rub on coating just before cooking).

Skewer roast on spit. Secure with holders. Roast according to spit manufacturer's directions or until meat thermometer registers 170 degrees.

Let roast stand about 15 minutes for easier carving. Slice and serve warm or cold in hard rolls, if desired.

Serves 10 to 12.

Coating: Combine 3/4 teaspoon salt, 1/2 teaspoon coarsely ground pepper, 1/4 teaspoon dried dill weed.

Dear Helen: C. Mitchell asked for a recipe for porketta. As both my parents are from northern Minnesota, I am familiar with this delicious treat. My family is not this dedicated so we have discovered another way to obtain this tasty treat.

We call a wonderful shop in Hibbing, Minn., and have the roast sent. They will even ship a lean porketta for those who don't want all that fat. The shop is: Sunrise Gourmet Foods, 1813 Third Ave. East, Hibbing, Minn. 55746 (phone 1-800-782-6736). - M. Cheever, Kiowa.

A: A 3 to 4-pound porketta, ordered from Sunrise Gourmet Foods, costs $22, according to a phone conversation I had with a spokesman for the company. She pointed out that porketta is popular in northern Minnesota's Iron Range region, so called because of the iron mines there.

Meanwhile, here's another spin on the porketta saga.

Dear Helen: I saw the letter from C. Mitchell in your March 8 column. I cut it out and sent it to a friend who lives in Minnetonka (a suburb of Minneapolis) and is a regular Byerly's customer.

She took the clipping to Byerly's and they gave her the recipe for porketta. - S. Wills-Ortiz, Denver

BYERLY'S PORKETTA

Cut a boneless pork butt roast almost in half, lengthwise, and open it like a book. Generously sprinkle both sides with salt, pepper and garlic salt. Sprinkle fennel seeds sparingly on one side.

Sprinkle parsley flakes generously on other cut side. Sprinkle both sides with garlic salt and pepper.

Put roast together again. Tie securely with string. Generously sprinkle all sides with regular salt, pepper, garlic salt and pepper again in that order, using pepper twice. Place in roasting pan. Press fennel seeds on top.

Cover with parsley flakes. Roast, covered, in preheated 325-degree oven 3 to 4 hours or until roast falls apart when touched with tines of fork.

Traditionally, porketta should not be sliced but pulled apart with a fork. The flavor is the same essence as an Iron Range store-bought porketta but milder. If you've never been initiated into the porketta society, this is a pleasant way to earn your membership credentials.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT'S IT

"IT'S IT" and "ice cream"--3,270 Google hits


(GOOGLE)
http://mistersf.com/new/index.html?newitsit.htm
The It's-It is          the real San Francisco treat. This epicurean wonder, a confection          of vanilla ice cream sandwiched between two oatmeal cookies and covered          with chocolate then frozen, was invented in 1928 by amusement park owner          George Whitney. Whitney wanted something special for a refreshment stand          at his Ocean Beach attraction, San Francisco's historic Playland at the          Beach. The It's-It was it. Playland operated its midway, bumper cars,          rifle range, fun house and more for over fifty years before closing in          1972. By then the park had long since lost its luster. The rickety roller          coaster, The Big Dipper, had been torn down twenty years earlier. In addition          to the packaged It's-It, other remnants of the Playland era have endured          including the Musée Mechanique and Camera Obscura at the Cliff          House, the historic Charles Looff carousel now at the Zeum children's          center in Yerba Buena Gardens, and the hanging-by-a-thread Doggie          Diner mascot on Sloat Blvd.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.sonic.net/~playland/herb.html
Herb Caen, San Francisco's Chronicle Columnist
 Visits Playland for the Last Time, Sept. 4, 1972
We'll Never Go There Anymore

SINCE IT CLOSES forever after today, I decided to give  Playland-at-the-Beach one more chance to kill me.

 Parking my Mazda Rotary where the city meets the sea.   I stepped up to that familiar open window at the corner of Balboa and ordered a Bull Pupp Enchilada.  "Famous for 49 years." This one tasted a little younger and had plenty of zing.  Bull Pupps are not for kidds.

 Then I walked up the block to the It's It place and had a 40-cent corn dog, with plenty of mustard and catsup, and topped that with an It's It itself: the fabled sweetmeat made  of two oatmeal cookies with vanilla ice cream between, the whole covered with chocolate  sauce and frozen.

  The It's It didn't taste as good as I remembered it from years past but hardly anything does.  For one thing, the ice cream between the cookies should be flat.  This was round, scooped out like a golf ball and it never did soften into a manageable mess.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCOOTER PIE

SCOOTER PIE--1,540 Google hits
                           630 Google Groups hits

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 SCOOTER PIE
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: COOKIES.
FIRST USE: 19591217.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19591217
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
72203529
 Filing Date
October 7, 1964
 Registration Number
0834843
 Registration Date
September 5, 1967
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) QUAKER OATS COMPANY, THE CORPORATION NEW JERSEY MERCHANDISE MART PLAZA CHICAGO ILLINOIS
(LAST LISTED OWNER) GENERAL BISCUIT BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME DELAWARE 891 NEWARK AVENUE ELIZABETH NEW JERSEY 07207
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
KUHN AND MULLER
 Disclaimer
APPLICANT DISCLAIMS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO  THE WORD "PIE," SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN, BUT RESERVES ALL COMMON LAW RIGHTS IN AND TO SAID WORD.
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   19870905
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 01:23:26 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:23:26 -0400
Subject: 2 Antedatings
In-Reply-To: <00e701c39b5e$590d97c0$8b5f12d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.212326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are two antedatings from Amazon full-text searches:


hymen2 (OED, 1., 1615)

1538 Thomas Elyot _Dictionary_  Hymen ... a skinne in the secrete place of
a maiden, which whanne she is defloured is broken.


Holmesian, n. (OED 1958)

1930 Christopher Morley _Foreword_ in _Complete Sherlock Holmes_


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Sun Oct 26 01:39:19 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:39:19 -0400
Subject: clothes on his back
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.213919.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This seems an idiomatic expression with meaning that is more than the sum of its parts. What is clearly meant is the "clothes he was wearing." If the poor fellow who went over Niagara Falls last week didn't have his pants on, AP would surely have reported it.
The expression is widely used in current English, witness Google (6,940 hits, 3,460 for "her back"). And it is not something new. The OED text (1992 disk) has three occurrences. The earliest is from 1584, Sir J. Bowes: "None of them had clothes on his back worth a robell."

Am I missing an entry in any of the major dictionaries?

TOM PAIKEDAY

www.paikeday.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 01:41:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:41:15 -0400
Subject: Animal Style & Wish Burger ("In-N-Out Secret Menu")
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.214115.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Restaurant lingo is never "86"-ed.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Fan clubs / The secret life of a West Coast burger star
       TOM McNICHOL.       Houston Chronicle.       Houston, Tex.: Aug 23, 2002.                   p. 5
(...)
   The In-N-Out menu offers four items: hamburger, cheeseburger, Double-Double burger and fries. (That Double Double, at 670 calories and 41 grams of fat, is basically a coronary thrombosis on a gently toasted bun.) But patrons can customize the basic burgers by adding or subtracting toppings such as pickles, tomatoes and grilled onions; they can even eliminate the meat altogether.

   Over the years, this trend has evolved into what's become known as the Secret Menu - a list of popular burger variations that don't appear on the menu but are passed along by word of mouth. For example, a burger ordered Animal Style comes doused with mustard and pickles, extra special sauce and grilled onions. The Wish Burger is somewhat simpler to parse - a vegetarian option, without meat or cheese. And the Protein Style burger replaces the bun with a piece of fresh lettuce, for those on a low-carbohydrate diet. Then there's the mighty 4-by-4, with four meat patties and four slices of cheese.

   The Secret Menu is not an In-N-Out marketing creation, and its popularity appears to mystify the company's officers.

   "We've never called it the Secret Menu," said Carl Van Fleet, the chain's vice president for operations. "We've always prepared a burger any way you want. Our customers came up with the names like Animal Style."

(GOOGLE)
http://www.tiburon-belvedere.com/cgi/home.cgi?c=In_N_Out
Did you know that In-N-Out            Burger has a secret unpublished menu? Everyone links to ours because it's always up-to-date and accurate. If you like In-N-Out Burger, you'll love            the following special order items:

"3-by-3" = three meat patties      and three slices of cheese.

"4-by-4" = four meat patties      and four slices of cheese.

"2-by-4" = two meat patties      and four slices of cheese.

*Note: You can get a burger      with as many meat paties or cheese slices as you want. Just tell the In-N-Out Burger cashier      how many meat paties and how much cheese you want and that is what you'll      get! For instance, if you want 6 pieces of meat and 10 pieces of cheese tell      them you want a "6-by-10."

"Double Meat" = like            a Double Double without cheese.

"3 by Meat" = three            meat patties and no cheese.

"Animal Style" = the meat      is cooked and fried with mustard and then pickles are added, extra spread      and grilled onions are added.

"Animal      Style Fries" = fries with cheese, spread, grilled onions and sometimes      pickles.

"Protein Style" = for            all you low-carbohydrate dieters, this is a burger with no bun (wrapped in lettuce).

"Flying Dutchman" = two meat      patties cooked medium rare, two slices of melted cheese and nothing else -      not even a bun!

Fries "Well-Done" = extra      crispy fries . . . even better than the regular!

Fries "Light" = opposite of fries well-done, more raw than most people like 'em

"Grilled Cheese" = no meat,      just melted cheese, tomato, lettuce and sauce on a bun.

"Veggie Burger" = burger      without the patty or cheese.

"Neapolitan" Shake = strawberry,      vanilla and chocolate blended together.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.dailynugget.com/000445.php
In-n-Out Secret Menu
         I guess not everybody knows about the In-n-Out secret menu.  So for all of those that did not grow up in Southern California, here it is:

  "3-by-3" = three meat patties and three slices of cheese.
 "4-by-4" = four meat patties and four slices of cheese.
 "2-by-4" = two meat patties and four slices of cheese.

  Note: You can get a burger with as many meat paties or cheese slices as you want. Just tell the cashier how many meat paties and how much cheese you want and that is what you'll get! For instance, if you want 2 pieces of meat and 6 pieces of cheese tell them you want a "2-by-6."

  "Animal Style" = the meat is grilled with mustard, then pickles, extra spread, and grilled onions are added.
 "Double Meat" = like a Double Double without cheese.
 "3-by-Meat" = three meat patties and no cheese.
 "Animal Style Fries" = fries with cheese, spread, grilled onions.
 "Protein Style" = this is a burger with no bun, wrapped in lettuce.
 "Grilled Cheese" = no meat, but everything else.
 "Veggie Burger" = aka "Wish Burger," burger without patty or cheese.
 "On the Sal" = this is just lettuce and dressing. Nothing else.
 "Volcano Top" = Top bun hollowed out and filled with ketchup, really!
 "Fries Well-Done" = extra crispy fries, even better than the regular!
 "Fries Light" = opposite of fries well-done, more raw than usual.
 "Flying Dutchman" = two meat patties, two slices of melted cheese--nothing else--not even a bun!
 "Neopolitan Shake" = strawberry, vanilla and chocolate shake.

  Other Lingo:

  "100-by-100" = legend has it that this was ordered by a group of four celebrating a birthday.
 "500-by-500" = an unconfirmed order made by a fraternity.
 "Home Run" = this is when a car passes by the microphone without ordering and cruises right up to the service window.
By Fabian on Tuesday, July 22, 2003


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 26 02:42:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:42:57 -0400
Subject: 2 Antedatings/hymen
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.224257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To Joanne's good credit, M-W had 1543 in their latest.  But you beat that by
5 years.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 9:23 PM
Subject: 2 Antedatings


> Here are two antedatings from Amazon full-text searches:
>
>
> hymen2 (OED, 1., 1615)
>
> 1538 Thomas Elyot _Dictionary_  Hymen ... a skinne in the secrete place of
> a maiden, which whanne she is defloured is broken.
>
>
> Holmesian, n. (OED 1958)
>
> 1930 Christopher Morley _Foreword_ in _Complete Sherlock Holmes_
>
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 02:44:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:44:19 -0400
Subject: Half Smokes (1924); Coney Island Chicken (1924)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.224419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Half smokes" is not the OED.
   DARE  has "half-smoke" (it's usually not hyphenated, as in the following examples) as "chiefly sNJ."  The first citation is from 1968.
   This "Coney Island chicken" is a little earlier than my 1933 citation in the archives.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
      Everest A Mere Hill Alongside 'Mt. Hercules'
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1924.                   p. XX2 (1 page):
(Second article, below the Everest one--ed.)
_Hot Dog Is Having Its Day:_
   _World's Most Popular Lunch_
(...)
   The one-time "Coney Island" that the small town boy knew only as one of the delights of circuses, carnivals and fairs, has taken an all-the-year-round shanty on Main Street.
(...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   In the variety of local names applied to the same product a national term often proves useful.  The trade has already learned to respond to the names, "Coney Island chicken," "shore dinner," "half smokes," "weinies" and so on.  To one manufacturer came an order for reed birds.  He replied that he was not in the poultry business.  "Send hot-dogs," the customer wrote back; and the manufacturer understood.

      ' Hot Dogs' Top the List Of Sausages Eaten Here
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 7, 1935.                   p. 15 (1 page):
   "Hot dogs," known also as wieners, Coney Islands, half smokes, red hots and, on occasion, frankfurters, are New York City's favorite sausages.  This information was released to the public yesterday by George A. Schmidt, chairman of the governing committee of the National Organization of Sausage Manufacturers.
(There is also a similar article in the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR for May 9--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
      Display Ad 11 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 4, 1933.                   p. 9 (1 page):
HALF SMOKED SAUSAGE lb. 25c

Display Ad 6 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1942.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   Armour's "STAR"
SMOKED
SAUSAGE
(Half Smokes)
   lb. 35c

      Two Men Hoping for a Hot Dog Empire
       Washington Post Staff WriterBy Douglas C. Lyons.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 25, 1976.                   p. D_C_1 (2 pages):
Pg. 1, col. 5:  Their hot dogs sell for 55 cents and their half smokes for 70 cents.



(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 HALF SMOKED
 Goods and Services
(ABANDONED) IC  029.  US 046.  G & S: SAUSAGE.
FIRST USE: 19811101.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19811101
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73502041
 Filing Date
October 2, 1984
 Owner
(APPLICANT) MASH, NATHAN INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 3709 BRETON WAY BALTIMORE MARYLAND 21208
 Attorney of Record
WILLIAM D. HALL
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD
 Abandonment Date
July 2, 1985


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 26 03:29:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:29:22 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Amusement Park(1901)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.232922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W and OED both have 1909.  I didn't find earlier in the archives.

Using Ancestry.com, from the Sandusky(OH) Daily Star, March 12, 1901, page
?, col. 4:

An article titled <A MIDWAY>  <Will Be a Feature of the Next Ohio State
Fair>

<There will be a number of spectacular features, though the exact nature of
these is not yet determined upon.  A man at St. Louis created a sensation
last summer with his "sky cycle."  The fair managers have opened
correspondence with him with a view to securing his attraction and will
probably get it.
    A section of the grounds has been set aside to be devoted to this use.
It will be known as "Amusement Park."  It will be the Midway Plaisance of
the fair, but the standard will be much higher than is generally understood
by that term.>

(ed.--The Midway Plaisance is probably in reference to the midway at the
Chicago Fair in 1893, which area is still called that today.)

As an addenda, there appeared in the April 19th, 1901 edition of the same
Sandusky paper, an article which indicated that a Frank Burt was the
owner/promoter of a string of parks in the Midwest, including Cedar Point in
Sandusky.  There was the blurb <Amusement park trust the latest out.  Frank
Burt of Toledo, promoter.>

If anyone wanted to research this, he no doubt had a lot to do with the
origin of "Amusement Parks."

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 03:48:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:48:40 -0400
Subject: White Hots (from Rochester, NY)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.234840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Red hots" of a different color.  I don't know what the next volume of DARE will have.  It was/is a specialty of Rochester, New York.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      Hold the Homogeneity. Hot Dogs Stay Local.
       Glenn Collins.       New York Times (Late Edition (East Coast)).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 15, 2001.                   p. 3.6
Like Usinger and Thumann, many other hot dog manufacturers are family businesses, rich in history. Usinger dates to 1880, Thumann to 1949. Among their many cousins, in spirit at least, count the Cloverdale Foods Company of Mandan, N.D.; Farmer John Hot Dogs from the Clougherty Packing Company of Los Angeles; Sahlen's Smokehouse Hot Dogs from the Sahlen Packing Company of Buffalo; Vienna Beef frankfurters from the Vienna Sausage Manufacturing Company of Chicago; and Zweigle's White Hots from Zweigle's Inc. of Rochester.
(...)
Besides taste preferences, the large companies must contend with localized variation in cooking hot dogs. They can be steamed, boiled, broiled, grilled, fried and microwaved. Color differs, too: Red hot dogs in some areas of the South and Midwest are tinted with red dye, while Rochester has its legendary ''white hots,'' pork franks that are decidedly pale.

      LOW-FAT HOT DOGS HELP AMERICANS CONTINUE A LOVE AFFAIR
       Linda Shrieves, Orlando Sentinel..       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Jun 12, 1996.                   p. 3.A :
Tube steaks. Foot longs. Wieners. Red hots. White hots.

      Red hots No consensus dog at home, but Japan can taste a winner
       Nancy Ryan..       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Oct 7, 1991.                   p. 1:
GRAPHIC (color): Hot dogs: A regional taste The popular sausage-on-a-bun has many names: hot dogs, frankfurters, wieners, franks, red hots, white hots. Here are a few of the many regional variations.

      COUNTER OFFER DINER CHIC
       Sheryl Julian, Globe Staff.       Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Boston, Mass.: Oct 7, 1990.                   p. 41:
     There are better franks on the market now than there used to be. One brand, called White Hots -- all-beef franks made in Rochester, New York -- is spicier and lighter in color than ordinary hot dogs and delicious with homemade beans.

      Go Ahead, Make My Grill...; Ordering the Best Ethnic Sausages by Mail
       Margaret Engel.       The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 24, 1988.                   p. e.01:
Grilling expert, Donald Zabkar, of Zab's Backyard Hots, outside Rochester, N.Y., explains that cooks should never just put a hot dog or sausage directly over the red coals. (It goes without saying that the meats should never be put on the grill frozen, but should have been defrosted overnight in the refrigerator.)

     "Let them temper on the edge {of the grill}," Zabkar related. When they've cooked through, "then you can move them over the heat. It's very important to cook the inside and not just have the outside grilled."

     With Zabkar's white and red Rochester hotdogs, cooking the dogs until they burst is "coup de grace for fine wienering," as he puts it.

     Grilled red and white hots were a Rochester specialty that was in danger of culinary extinction until Zabkar and his two older brothers, Michael and David, rescued the hometown food by hiring a local packer to once again turn out the specialty.

     Zab's mild white "tube steak" contains veal, ham and beef, plus paprika, mustard, milk powder and spices. The red dog has some food coloring and preservatives, but is thinner, longer and much better-tasting than America's usual hot dog. The casing is extremely thin and the meat a combination of beef and pork.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
      On Upstate Menus, Grape Pies and White Hots
       By JANE PERLEZ.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 16, 1985.                   p. B2 (1 page):
   White barbecue sauce?  Flower for eating?  Grape pie?  Smoked cheese in a breakfast dish?
(...)
   In Naples, for instance, a town wreathed by vineyards an hour's drive south of Rochester, grape pie makes a fleeting but intense appearance this time of year.
(...)
   Originally manufactured in the 1920's as a poor man's hot dog made of the less desirable meat parts, the white hot dog later evolved into a top of the line sausage, according to J. Michael Zabkar Jr., the president of Zab's. (...) A white hot dog contains less fat, is not smoked and is cooked with "natural sodium rather than salt," he said.
(...)
   Smoked New York State cheese provides a vital ingredient to the "stradas" served by Barbara Johnson, the proprietor with her husband, Bruce, of the William Seward Inn in Westfield, 60 miles south of Buffalo.  A strada, a concoction of cheese, egg, bread and milk baked in the oven, arrives at the table resembling a puffy, cheese-laden pancake.


      Hot Dog Nostalgia
       EVELYN F. ELKODSI.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1983.                   p. C10 (1 page) :
   I enjoyed the article about Rochester White Hots ["Rochester's Own, a Hot Dog With Zing," April 20].  However, no mention was made that White Hots have been known in Rochester for years.  I recall with nostalgia enjoying a grilled White Hot on the short of Lake Ontario in the 40's and 50's.  Ask any older native of the city.  They were manufactured by a local sausage company (name forgotten) and distributed locally.

      Letter to the Editor 1 -- No Title
       CAROLYN H. DOWNING.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1983.                   p. C10 (1 page):
   I enjoyed greatly your piece about the native cuisine of Rochester and the growing popularity of the White Hot.  I must take issue, however, with Mr. Zabkar's claim to the invention of the Rochester White Hot.  White Hots were a very popular item in Rochester long before Mr. Zabkar was born.  I was introduced to them more than 30 years ago while visiting my sister and her husband in Rochester.  It was a case of love at first bite.  They are absolutely the best of the wurst.
   There is a sister product, the Red Hot, which is also delicious, but not for the faint of heart.

      Rochester's Own: A Hot Dog With Zing
       By RICHARD D. LYONS.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 20, 1983.                   p. C3 (1 page):
   The Rochester White Hot is a frankfurter made with veal, pork, mustard, paprika and other spices, then charcoal broiled to order over a fire of hickory chips, and served with a sauce that blends onions, peppers, relish, vinegar and molasses.  The effect ranges from a blowtorch to a forest fire, depending on the aggressiveness of the other garnishes selected.
   White Hots and the larger versions called the Big White and the White Foot are the inspirations of Donad Zabkar, a 28-year-old entrepreneur who runs Zab's Hot to Trot, a rapidly expanding company, with his four brothers and their sister.
   "Before we opened there wasn't anywhere in Rochester where you could buy a charcoil-broiled hot dog, or even a place that specialized in different varieties of hot dogs," Mr. Zabkar explained the other day.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 06:13:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:13:35 EST
Subject: Antedating of Amusment Park(1901) (1890)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.011335.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Close, but no cigar.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
1.
      Display Ad 42 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).    Washington, D.C.: Apr 19,
1896.                   p. 20 (1 page):
   The International Athletic Park and Amusement Company has secured a large
block of the Palisades and is constructing a Bicycle Track and Gernal
Amusement Park thereon, which will be ready for a Grand Opening on Decoration Day.


2.
      Display Ad 1 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).    Washington, D.C.: Aug 24,
1900.                   p. 2 (1 page) :
   Moore & Smith, of Wildwood Hotel and Amusement Park,...

3.
      Display Ad 2 -- No Title
          The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 25,
1900.      p. 2 (1 page)

4.
      TALK OF THEATERS.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug
26, 1900.              p. 24 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
1.
      Classified Ad 2 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May
4, 1890.                   p. 7 (1 page)

2.
      MOUNT TABOR.
  New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1890.
               p. 10 (1 page):
   In the afternoon special efforts are to be made to entertain the children
in the Amusement Park, and probably athletic games will be arranged.


3.
      A NEW PARK FOR BAYONNE.
            New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul
11, 1897.      p. 3 (1 page):
   It is estimated that perhaps $200,000 would be expended upon the proposed
amusement park.

4.

      ST. PETERSBURG'S NEW "PALACE OF THE PEOPLE"(2)
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Dec 9,
1900.                   p. 7 (1 page)

5.
      ST. PETERSBURG'S NEW "PALACE OF THE PEOPLE"
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec
9, 1900.                   p. 7 (1 page)



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
1.
      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 18, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)

2.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 19, 1894.      p. 6 (1 page)

3.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
20, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)

4.
      Classified Ad 1 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
21, 1894.                   p. 3 (1 page)

5.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
23, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 13:14:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:14:21 EST
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.081421.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.

Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
clumsy speakers?

        - Jim Landau

:) said Tom, parenthetically.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 00:22:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:22:27 EST
Subject: Buffalo's Truffalo (1997) & Sponge Candy (1910)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.192227.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Sponge candy" is not mentioned at all in (all together now) John F. 
Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).  "Sponge candy" is also 
not in (all together) the OED.  "Sponge candy" is a Buffalo regional specialty. 
 I don't know if it will make DARE, which stops at "Sk."
   There's no mystery to this regional item.  See the web site for Fowler's 
Chocolates:  H. W. Fowler wrote MODERN ENGLISH USAGE--then gave it all up to 
make "sponge candy" in Buffalo, New York?  Go figure.
   
  
  
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/CTGY/About_Us
> The story of Fowler’s Chocolate Shoppe, Inc. began in 1901 with a young 
> entrepreneur by the name of Joseph A. Fowler. After living in England and 
> Canada, Joseph traveled to Buffalo, NY in order to attend the Pan American 
> Exposition. At the exposition, he created and sold a small variety of chocolate 
> confections and sweets. The instant acceptance of his products, along with great 
> encouragement from his patrons, inspired Joseph to pursue candy making as a 
> career. With his brother, Claude, Joseph opened a small candy store in Buffalo. 
> 
> 
> In 1910, Claude decided to start his own business, concentrating on the 
> making of taffy and candied apples, and catered to carnivals, fairs and other 
> public gatherings. Claude passed away in 1942, but three generations of his 
> family have carried on his taffy business, now prominent in most carnivals and 
> fairs in the western New York area.
> 
> Joseph A. Fowler passed away in 1944, yet succeeding generations have 
> continued the chocolate business that he began nearly a century ago. Joseph’s sons, 
> Joseph C. Fowler and Ray Fowler, carried on the business and were 
> responsible for the success and growth of the company throughout the ‘50s and early ‘
> 60s. In 1961, Joseph C. Fowler’s son, Roy, joined the corporation, and in 
> 1968, Fowler’s Chocolate moved its operations to a 10,000 square foot building. 
> This new facility enabled the company to double its gross sales.
> 
> In 1993, the company was purchased by Buffalo residents Randy and Ted Marks. 
> At that time, the business had greatly expanded and had outgrown its old 
> location. The company was relocated to its current address at 100 River Rock 
> Drive in Buffalo.   
     
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/PROD/BS/SC
> Sponge Candy 8 oz.
>    
> Our #1 best-seller, every year, every season! With a sweet, crispy center 
> surrounded by rich premium chocolate, this mouth-watering treat is not only 
> heavenly, it's absolutely irresistible! Available in Milk, Dark or Orange 
> Chocolate. 8 oz.
> 
    
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/PROD/BS/728    
> Truffaloes
What would you call a truffle that is shaped like a bison, and made in 
Buffalo? Why, a Truffalo, of course! Milk Chocolate, with a hazelnut truffle center 
and Dark Chocolate with a raspberry truffle center. 8 oz.
  
  
Also, there's Romolo Chocolates of Erie, PA:
   
http://www.romolochocolates.com/
Romolo Chocolates' rich history began with Romolo, an Italian who immigrated 
to New York City in 1906. His grandson Tony, owner and master confectioner at 
Romolo Chocolates, continues to make cremes, caramels and other confections in 
the traditional methods his grandfather began after years working with candy 
makers in New York City and Chicago.  The family's confection making and 
chocolate mastery were learned under his tutelage.    
  
http://shop.romolochocolates.com/shopsite/romolo/index.html
The "famous in Romolo's Famous Sponge Candy came into play years after Romolo 
developed an impossibly delicate confection covered in rich milk chocolate 
that captured the taste buds and hearts of local Erieites and the attention of a 
national candy company. Needless to say, the national company never did get 
an exclusive contract, and the family recipe for sponge candy continues to be 
made at Romolo Chocolates and devoured far and wide. A chunk of delicate crisp 
that melts in your mouth, has a hint of molasses flavor and is coated in 
creamy milk chocolate, Romolo's Famous Sponge Candy is our most popular piece of 
candy. 
  
    
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark    TRUFFALOES 
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: buffalo-shaped candies with soft 
centers. FIRST USE: 19971215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19971225 
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   75394557    
Filing Date November 20, 1997   
Filed ITU   FILED AS ITU    
Published for Opposition    July 7, 1998    
Registration Number 2221017 
Registration Date   January 26, 1999    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Original Fowler's Chocolate Co., Inc. CORPORATION NEW 
YORK 100 River Rock Drive Suite 102 Buffalo NEW YORK 14207 
Attorney of Record  TRICIA T SEMMELHACK 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
    
   "Sponge candy" isn't in a lot of the usual suspects (Making of America, 
Brooklyn Eagle, American Kitchen Magazine).  I haven't yet checked ProQuest.
  
(ANCESTRY)
   24 January 1895, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg.1, col. 7:
   Something new and delicious--Pepsin Sponge Candy, at Batchelder's, No. 29 
West Main Street.
  
   23 March 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 4:
Chocolate Sponge
Pound Packages... 29c
(This could be "sponge cake," but it's in a section of candy advertisements, 
with no cake mentioned--ed.)
  
   13 April 1910, EVENING NEWS (Ada, Oklahoma), pg.4?, col. 3:
      Sponge Candy
   One cup of table syrup, one cup of granulated sugar; let boil until it 
cracks when dropped in cold water.  Take two teaspoons of baking soda rubbed 
smooth; stir soda quickly into candy.  After removing candy from fire, when thick 
turn out on buttered platter and let cool.
  
  
(If you go to Buffalo and buy some sponge candy, you may choose to share some 
with friends, but make sure they're sponge-worthy"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 00:58:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:58:50 EST
Subject: Senior Citizen (September 1938)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.195850.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has TIME magazine, 24 October 1938, for "senior citizen."  I'll check
ProQuest in a moment.  Is it from California?
   Where are the "junior" citizens?

(ANCESTRY)
   20 September 1938, RENO EVENING GAZETTE, pg. 11, col. 2:
  " ...to solve unemployment, to end the need of doles, to care for senior
citizens--retirement life payments is proposed to California as state
constitutional amendment."


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 01:06:58 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:06:58 -0800
Subject: resyllabification
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.170658.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).

last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
accent).

undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 01:50:23 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:50:23 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.195023.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This message is solely for Americans. British subscribers should read
no further and promptly delete what follows.

   Okay? All set? Here goes.

   I quote from the _St. Louis Post Dispatch_ Oct. 26, 2003, pg.
2C/1-3; article by Jerry Berger, title: "At least St. Louisan Didn't
Call Prince Andrew a Bum!":
   'RE-MEMBER, SUE: It's too bad Sue Engelhardt doesn't live in
Pittsburgh.  Residents of that town have been subjected to days of
lessons in the proper behavior toward royalty.  But Engelhardt, the
princess of Peabody Coal, is a hometowner so excited at meeting HRH
The Duke of York, (aka Prince Andrew) at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel
Wednesday night, that she had the young prince baffled.  Engelhardt
discussed coal-to-Great Britain, at which point Prince Andrew
deadpanned, "We use gas!"  Turning to the prince, who was in town to
raise money for the English Speaking Union-St. Louis Branch,
Engelhardt told him, "You're the best tool we have."  Prince Andrew
shot back, "I'm a tool?" For the record, Sue, "tool" is British slang
for something that a member of the Royal Family is unlikely to
mention in polite company.  Still, the allusion drew a faint smile
from Andrew's otherwise scowling Special Branch security detail.
Andrew's impromptu admission at the beginning of his prepared remarks
that he finally understood the well-intentioned reference was the
only spark in a lackluster, four-minute royal oration.'

Gerald Cohen,
an unabashed Anglophile


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 02:32:22 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:32:22 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20resyllabification?=
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.213222.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/26/03 8:07:29 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
> especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
> people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
> morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
> the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
> some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
> Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
> just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
> again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
> 
> last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
> took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
> like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
> "Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
> name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
> moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
> accent).
> 
> undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
> 
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
> 
Some quick thoughts:
I wonder what happens to the potential aspiration of the /p/ in a 
resyllabified "Sandrip Roy". With a word boundary between the /p/ and the /r/, I believe 
there is normally little if any aspiration of the /p/. But with the word 
boundary before the /p/, I'd tend to aspirate the /p/ quite strongly. Compare 
"night rate" with "Nye Trait"--for me, the /t/ in "night rate" often gets reduced 
to a glottal stop (therefore without any aspiration). Of course, in these 
examples the stress is on the initial syllable, not the second one, but even so, I 
think I would in general have a lot of trouble EVER resyllabifying words that 
end in vowel + /t/, I think--the aspiration of the /t/ after the word boundary 
would make the resyllabified word sound too different. Could e.g. "rabbit 
rot" become "rabbi trot"?

I think the same holds for "Mystic River "--> "Misty Criver" -- was the guy 
really resyllabifying it, or were you just missing some cues? Wouldn't there be 
aspiration on the /k/ if it were truly syllable-initial?   


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 03:08:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:08:33 -0500
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.220833.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, it's earlier on ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.  That's California politics for you.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      New Pension Plan Offered
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1937.                   p. 5 (1 page):
   SACRAMENTO, April 14. (Exclusive)--Robert Noble of Hollywood took the rostrum in the Assembly today and addressed members of the Legislature on his "roperty (sic) certificates" for senior citizens of California.

      LETTERS To THE TIMES
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
   Every "senior citizen" who would receive his "$30 every Thursday" would spend the warrants as quickly as possible to avoid having to attach the weekly 2-cent stamp required.

      Just Supposing It Happened
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
   it will be over the determined protest of John Taxpayer, indeed, that either the "senior citizens," or those who fell for their optimism currency, collect even the full amount per ticket represented by the stamps licked and stuck thereon.

      Haight Assails Pension Plan
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 12, 1938.                   p. 6 (1 page)

      THE GREAT GAME OF POLITICS
       FRANK R KENT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 28, 1938.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   WASHINGTON, Oct. 27.--One of the major developments in American politics, frequently commented on in recent months, is the multiplicity of new schemes for granting and increasing pensions to the aged--or, as some politicans are tenderly beginning to call them, "our senior citizens."


(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
      Townsend Successors Still Strong In West
       By Elmer T. Peterson. Special Correspondence of The Post..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 31, 1938.                   p. B9 (1 page):
   The build-up is that every "senior citizen" has done his share of the world's work and is now entitled to a living.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 03:53:26 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:53:26 -0500
Subject: Santa Maria Barbecue
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.225326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANTA MARIA BARBECUE--297 Google hits
   "Santa Maria" barbecue is not in...well, you know.  It's like "pitchfork fondue" and "pit beef," only different.
   Unfortunately, the ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is stuck on July 1939 for the moment.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.santamaria.com/section_visitor/barbecue.html
Visiting the Santa Maria Valley is a feast for the senses with its lush rolling hills and fragrant fields of strawberries. But cruise down Broadway on any given weekend, and it’s the mouth-watering smell of barbecue that will greet you. In fact, Santa Maria is known nation-wide as the "Barbecue Capital of the World."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Santa Maria Style Barbecue is truly the authentic taste experience of Santa Maria. This sumptuous feast of barbecued sirloin, salsa, Pinquito beans, toasted French bread, and green salad has been called by Sunset Magazine, the "best barbecue in the world" and the California’s Visitor’s Guide raves this the "number one food not to miss while visiting California." It is the featured cuisine at all festive occasions, both public and private, and so thoroughly ingrained in local culture that it truly has become a way of life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Santa Maria Barbecue has its roots in the mid-19th century, when the rancheros gathered to help each other brand their calves each spring. The host would prepare a Spanish style barbecue as a thank you for his vaqueros (America’s first cowboys), family and friends. Under the oaks of this serene little coastal valley they would enjoy a traditional feast that included beef barbecued over a red oak fire, served with Pinquito beans, bread, salsa and homemade desserts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The present Santa Maria Style Barbecue grew out of this tradition, and achieved its "style" some 60 years ago when local residents began to string their beef on skewers and cook it over the hot coals of a red oak fire. The meat, either top block sirloin or the triangular-shaped bottom sirloin known as "tri tip," is rolled in a mixture of salt, pepper and garlic salt just prior to cooking. It is then barbecued over red oak coals, giving the meat a hearty, smoky flavor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The traditional Santa Maria Barbecue menu features, of course, the barbecued sirloin, trimmed, sliced, and laid out in metal pans so that the diner may select the desired doneness. The only condiment for this tender and flavorful meat is a fresh salsa. With it is served grilled French bread dipped in sweet melted butter, perfect for soaking up every last bit of the flavorful meat juices. Also served on the side is a tossed green salad, and slow-cooked pinquito beans. For the most authentic Santa Maria Barbecue experience, select a robust Santa Maria Valley wine to accompany your meal. This tasty feast is finished with coffee and a simple dessert.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Once a well-kept local secret, word of Santa Maria Style Barbecue has spread around the world, enticing travelers to come by the thousands, seeking a taste of this local specialty, and it’s not difficult to find. On a typical Saturday, you will see clouds of fragrant smoke billowing through the air, leading you to numerous barbecues throughout the city. They range from outdoor feasts along Broadway sponsored by schools and local charities, to restaurants offering a more formal dining experience, to backyard cookouts where families enjoy their own recipes that have been passed down through the generations.  It’s no wonder Santa Maria is called the "Barbecue Capital of the World."



(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      SANTA MARIA BARBECUE A COWBOY-STYLE TREAT
       Merle Ellis.       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Apr 21, 1988.                   p. 7.B

      Barbecue Goes Back to the Vaqueros
       MERLE ELLIS, SPECIAL TO THE CHRONICLE.       San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       San Francisco, Calif.: Apr 20, 1988.                   p. 7.ZZ.7

      PAST PERFECT The Good Old Days Are Alive and Well . . . if You Just Know Where to Look
       DEBORAH GEIGIS.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 23, 1988.                   p. 1

      It's time for a couple of good barbecue tips
       MERLE ELLIS.       Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Houston, Tex.: May 6, 1987.                   p. 2
                  � � � � �
       Take a Couple of Tips for a Great Barbecue
       MERLE ELLIS.       San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       San Francisco, Calif.: Apr 15, 1987.                   p. AA.4

      Trekking Sand Dunes And Old Guadalupe
       MICHELE GRIMM, TOM GRIMM.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 4, 1987.                   p. 14

      Reflections on a Blend of the Old and the New
       BARBARA HANSEN.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1986.                   p. 37

      The Barbecues of Santa Maria
       ROSE DOSTI.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 23, 1985.                   p. 1:
   Straw hats shade the eyes that peer at a passing Chrysler that is too big and too brassy for Santa Maria-like a harlot stepping off a stagecoach.

   Then slowly, one by one, the barbecue wagons, stationed at corner lots of this picturesque Central California farming community, appear. Smoke billows from their grids; the smell maddening.

   At first, the barbecue stations are slow to appear. But once you enter the main artery of the town, the barbecues come at you faster and faster. Soon they are on every corner-at shopping malls, parking lots, empty lots and store fronts.

   Suddenly you stop.

   The Latin American Social Organization is one of numerous local groups sponsoring barbecues for all sorts of events that come to town. Their barbecue station is situated smack on the front lot of a Lucky Store on Alvin Street. You can't miss it.

   Barbecues in Santa Maria are a way of saying "howdy" to newcomers, living up to the tradition of hospitality common to Santa Maria. They are a friendly way of raising funds for things like the rodeo, which is open this year from May 31 until June 2.

   Groups like the Elks, Masons or Knights of Columbus may sponsor one of the nine candidates for the rodeo queen. As always, since 1960 when LASO became an organized group, it is sponsoring the Elks' candidate for rodeo queen. This year, Rosie Flores' photograph is posted on the sides of the LASO barbecue wagon, like a candidate in a political campaign.

   Santa Maria barbecues date back to early California history when neighboring rancheros and vaqueros gathered under the oaks of the serene valley. Back in those days, rancheros in the valley would help one another round up and brand cattle. The gracious ranchero would host a barbecue in honor of his friends.

   Since then, barbecues are touched off for any reason and have become both a tradition and way of life for the natives of Santa Maria, whether holding curb-side fund raising events or entertaining backyard guests.

   The menu and recipes for the meat, beans and macaroni and cheese are copyrighted, and authorized barbecuers have traveled outside Santa Maria to hold what has become known as the "Santa Maria-Style Barbecue."

   Each group-indeed, each cook- boasts his or her own recipe for beans and macaroni and cheese, the two mainstays of a Santa Maria barbecue menu. But the recipe for the barbecued meat is standard-Santa Maria style, according to Bob Seavers, secretary manager of the Santa Maria Valley Chamber of Commerce for the past 33 years. Which means that the meat must be seasoned with salt, pepper and garlic salt (crushed garlic in the old days), then barbecued. No deviations allowed. No cooking ahead, either. An authentic Santa Maria barbecue calls for cooking and serving at once.

   According to Seavers, old-time rancheros would barbecue ribs by stringing them together on willow branches and hooking the branch onto two forks over an open fire. Later, pits were devised to make use of coal, a longer-burning fuel. In recent years, when rising costs called for a switch from ribs to less wasteful sirloin, barbecue cooks began using chains and pulleys to enable the meat to be raised and lowered to desired levels for best cooking results.

   A sirloin roast, usually 3 1/2-inches thick, is the traditional beef cut for Santa Maria-style barbecues, although some cooks, such as those in the LASO group, prefer the ribs. The steaks are strung on flat steel rods before lowering them over a bed of red hot coals. Once cooked, the meat is sliced at the pit and served in large stainless steel pans, with natural juices poured on. Toasted, buttered French bread for sopping up the natural juices is a must.

   Chicken, a less costly alternative to beef, is generally used simultaneously, but most cooks steam the barbecued chicken halves in beer for added flavor. Some cooks in the LASO group also steam the ribs, although the practice is not considered traditional. The LASO group has also preserved the use of oak logs to cook the meat, just as their ancestors did in the old days.

   The LASO group had just fired up the barbecue with huge oak logs when we arrived, and Tony Martinez, one of the many volunteers who tend the barbecue wagon on weekends, was slapping huge slabs of beef ribs onto the grid, turning them over and over with his well-worn, charred gloves.

   In a pot simmering on a burner below the grids were the beans. Barbecue beans are part and parcel of the Santa Maria-style barbecue menu and are particularly unique because of the type of beans used. Pinquitos are said to have been the choice since the earliest days of ranching in the fertile valley, which today supplies 25% of the total production of broccoli to the nation. The valley, in fact, produces a good share of the nation's low crops, such as lettuces, cauliflower and sugar beets. Pinquitos are indigenous to the Santa Maria Valley and are grown by valley ranchers who produce only enough for local cooks. "Local demand takes care of the supply so you can't get them anywhere but Santa Maria," said Seavers. Anyone eager for the pinquitos may write to the Santa Maria Chamber of Commerce for a source (the address is given with the recipe below).

   Like the pinto bean, pinquitos are red in color, but smaller than the pinto. Pintos can be substituted, however.

   At the LASO barbecue station, Martinez speared a few ribs and dropped them on a paper plate along with a spoonful of beans. The plate then was passed to the women's auxiliary volunteers stationed in the trailer alongside. It is the women who prepare the accompanying rice, salad and salsa. And each has her own recipe for these side dishes. Several auxiliary women sit around the crammed table to dish up salsa into tiny cups. "We enjoy coming here on weekends," say the women.

   Here are the traditional recipes for the beans, salsa and macaroni and cheese as provided by the Santa Maria Valley Chamber of Commerce, as well as those supplied by the LASO group, which you can try for your next major barbecue.

   Menu for Santa Maria-Style Barbecue Barbecued Santa Maria Top Sirloin of Beef Santa Maria Style Barbecue Beans Santa Maria Barbecue Salsa Santa Maria Macaroni and Cheese Tossed Green Salad Toasted Sweet French Bread Coffee BARBECUED SANTA MARIA TOP SIRLOIN OF BEEF

   1 (3- to 4-pound) top sirloin of beef, choice-grade, 3 to 3 1/2-inches thick

   Salt, pepper

   Garlic salt

   Toasted French bread slices

   Sprinkle both sides of beef with salt, pepper and garlic salt to taste. Place on grill over medium-hot coals and barbecue until done as desired. Cut into slices, reserving natural juices. Pour reserved juices over meat. Serve with toasted French bread slices for dipping. Makes 4 to 6 servings.

SANTA MARIA BARBECUED CHICKEN

   6 chicken halves

   Garlic salt

   Pepper

   1 to 2 (12-ounce) cans beer

   Sprinkle chicken with garlic salt and pepper to taste. Grill over medium-hot coals until browned, about 30 to 40 minutes. Meanwhile, heat beer in pot large enough to hold chicken. Drop chicken in pot containing simmering beer, cover and steam 15 to 20 minutes or until chicken is very tender. Makes 6 to 12 servings.

LASO BARBECUED RIBS

   Use 6 to 8 pounds beef ribs instead of chicken in recipe for Santa Maria Barbecued Chicken. Cook 45 to 60 minutes on grill, then steam in beer 15 to 20 minutes.

SANTA MARIA-STYLE BARBECUE BEANS

   1 pound small pink beans (pinquito)

   1 slice bacon, diced

   1/2 cup diced ham

   1 small clove garlic, minced

   3/4 cup tomato puree

   1/4 cup red chili sauce (preferably Las Palmas brand)

   1 tablespoon sugar

   1 teaspoon dry mustard

   1 teaspoon salt

   Pick over beans to remove dirt and small stones. Cover with water and let soak overnight in large container. Drain. Cover with fresh water and simmer 2 hours or until tender.

   Saute bacon and ham until lightly browned. Add garlic. Saute 1 or 2 minutes longer, then add tomato puree, chili sauce, sugar, mustard and salt. Drain most of liquid off beans and stir in sauce. Keep hot over low heat until ready to serve. Makes 12 servings.

SANTA MARIA BARBECUE SALSA

   3 medium tomatoes, chopped

   1/2 cup finely chopped celery

   1/2 cup finely chopped green onions

   1/2 cup chopped California green chiles

   2 tablespoons snipped cilantro

   1 tablespoon vinegar

   Dash Worcestershire sauce

   Dash garlic salt

   Dash dried oregano, crushed

   Few drops hot pepper sauce

   Combine tomatoes, celery, green onions, chiles, cilantro, vinegar, Worcestershire, garlic salt, oregano and hot pepper sauce in bowl. Cover and let stand 1 hour to blend flavors. Makes 3 1/2 cups.

SANTA MARIA MACARONI AND CHEESE

   1 1/2 cups elbow macaroni

   2 tablespoons butter or margarine

   2 tablespoons flour

   1 1/2 cups shredded sharp Cheddar cheese

   2 cups hot milk

   3/4 teaspoon salt

   Dash pepper

   Cook macaroni according to package directions. Melt butter in skillet. Add flour and cook until flour is smooth and golden brown. Stir 1 cup cheese into hot milk and add to flour mixture, stirring constantly until well blended. Add salt and pepper. Turn into greased 1 1/2-quart casserole. Sprinkle with remaining 1/2 cup cheese. Bake at 350 degrees 35 to 40 minutes. Makes 6 to 8 servings. MARGARET ORTIZ'S HOMEMADE SANTA MARIA RICE

   1/4 cup oil

   2 cups rice

   2 cloves garlic, minced

   1 large onion, chopped

   2 (8-ounce) cans tomato sauce

   1 quart water

   1 teaspoon salt

   Dash pepper

   Heat oil in skillet. Add rice and cook, stirring, until grains are glazed. Add garlic and onion and saute until onion is tender. Add tomato sauce, water, salt and pepper. Bring to boil. Reduce heat and simmer over medium-low heat 20 to 30 minutes or until rice is tender and water is almost absorbed. Makes 6 servings.

LASO BARBECUE BEANS

   1 pound pinto or pinquito beans

   1 large onion, chopped

   2 cloves garlic, minced

   1/2 to 1 pound chorizo sausage

   1 teaspoon dry crushed oregano

   3/4 cup tomato puree

   1 teaspoon salt

   Cook pinto beans in water to cover until tender, about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Saute onion and garlic in large pot until onion is tender. Add chorizo and saute until chorizo is browned. Add oregano, tomato puree and salt. Add beans and water to pot. Bring to boil, adding more water if necessary to keep beans covered. Cook until heated through. Keep beans hot. Serve beans with slotted spoon to drain before serving. Makes 12 servings.

   Note: Pinquito are beans grown in local areas of Santa Maria. Contact the Santa Maria Chamber of Commerce, 614 S. Broadway, Santa Maria, Calif. 93456 for a source.

[Illustration]

PHOTO:   /  L. KENT WHITEHEAD Santa Maria beans traditionally contain ham and bacon, but the Latino group uses flavorful chorizo. Slabs of Santa Maria beef ribs and chicken barbecue on a hinge-and-pulley grid over an oak fire. Martha Martinez poses at takeout trailer advertising barbecue menu and rodeo queen candidate. /  PENNI GLADSTONE


      An Olympic `Blue Ribbon' Reunion
       MARY LOU LOPER.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 25, 1985.                   p. 7


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 04:25:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:25:44 -0500
Subject: St. Joseph's Bread (1931)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.232544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ST. JOSEPH'S BREAD--114 Google hits
   Not in..you know.
   "St. Joseph's Bread" or "Pane de San Giuseppe" should be in various American Italian communities, but it appears to be a specialty in Buffalo, New York.
   I didn't find a whole lot of citations for it, but it certainly exists.  Perhaps the Chicago Tribune will help here.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.allbaking.net/ch/2001/december/grace2.html
St. Joseph's Bread
 (Pane di San Giuseppe)
  St. Joseph's Bread is a traditional bread served on St. Joseph's Day, March 19. It is an egg bread with a crumb that has a tighter, denser weave, allowing the dough to be used for fancy bread-sculpting designs. Breads in the form of crosses, staffs, wheat sheaves, images of St. Joseph, and braids of the Blessed Mother adorn the St. Joseph table and are eaten throughout the feast day. I make this bread throughout the year when I am in a sculpting mood.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m122901.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: jmf
To: phaedrus
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: Pane Scunato

> This is a St. Joseph's day bread. It was a bakery  item in the
> Italian Bakeries on the days around this feast day in Buffalo N.Y
> Can you find this for me?
>

Hi,

I cannot locate anything with the name "pane scunato". However, there are lots of recipes for "St. Joseph's Bread", like the one below.

Phaed

ST. JOSEPH'S BREAD

This bread, called Pane di San Giuseppe, is traditionally made for the
Feast of St. Joseph on March 19.

2 to 3 C. unbleached flour
1/2 T. active dry yeast
1 T. honey
2/3 C. hot water
1/2 tsp. salt
2 T. butter
3 T. aniseed
1/3 C. golden raisins
Corn meal


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22joseph%27s+bread%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=33634399.7CD6%40concentric.net&rnum=9
NEW YORK
 Albany
  Grilled Shad
 Binghampton
  Speides/Speides Subs
 Buffalo
  Chicken Wings
  Beef on Weck
  Loganberry Pop
  Sponge Candy
  Butter Lamb
  St. Joseph's Bread
  Sahlen's Hot Dogs
 New York
  Bagels
  Jewish Deli (et. al.)
  Cheesecake
  Gibson Coctail
  New York Thin Crust Pizza
  Manhattan Clam Chowder
  Egg Cream
  Charlotte Russe
  Seltza
  Nathan's Hot Dogs
 Syracuse
  Salt Potatoes


(JSTOR)
Hoodoo in America
Zora Hurston
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 44, No. 174. (Oct. - Dec., 1931), pp. 317-417.
Pg. 359:  At eleven o'clock on March 19, St. joseph's Day, I rose...
   At high noon I was seated at the splendid altar.  it was dressed in the center with a huge communion cnadle with my name upon it set in sand, five large iced cakes in different colors, a plate of honeyed St. Jospeh's bread, a plate of serpent-shaped breads, spinach and egg cakes fried in olive oil, breaded Chinese okra fried in olive oil, roast veal and wine, two huge yellow bouquets, two red bouquets and two white bouquets and thirty-six yellow tapers and a bottle of holy water.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 04:42:03 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:42:03 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_resyllabification?=
In-Reply-To: <114.2a9a04cf.2ccdddb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.204203.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sunday, October 26, 2003, at 06:32 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote,
about my resyllabification examples:

> Some quick thoughts:
> I wonder what happens to the potential aspiration of the /p/ in a
> resyllabified "Sandrip Roy". With a word boundary between the /p/ and
> the /r/, I believe
> there is normally little if any aspiration of the /p/. But with the
> word
> boundary before the /p/, I'd tend to aspirate the /p/ quite strongly.
> Compare
> "night rate" with "Nye Trait"--for me, the /t/ in "night rate" often
> gets reduced
> to a glottal stop (therefore without any aspiration). Of course, in
> these
> examples the stress is on the initial syllable, not the second one,
> but even so, I
> think I would in general have a lot of trouble EVER resyllabifying
> words that
> end in vowel + /t/, I think--the aspiration of the /t/ after the word
> boundary
> would make the resyllabified word sound too different. Could e.g.
> "rabbit
> rot" become "rabbi trot"?
>
> I think the same holds for "Mystic River "--> "Misty Criver" -- was
> the guy
> really resyllabifying it, or were you just missing some cues? Wouldn't
> there be
> aspiration on the /k/ if it were truly syllable-initial?

i should have been clearer.  both "Misty Crivver" and "Sandi Proy" had
syllable-initial aspiration; that's what made them so very noticeable.

bob edwards tends to have ingressive variants of syllable-initial (but
not syllable-final -- it's some sort of fortition) b, so his
resyllabification is also easy to hear.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 04:59:09 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:59:09 -0500
Subject: Frango Mints (1918)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.235909.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Were they "Franco" Mints, and was the name changed for political purposes?  Or is that a myth?  Are these really big in Seattle?  Chicago?
   There are 1,100 Google hits.  ProQuest wasn't much help here.  Again, the Chicago Tribune would've be nice to have.


(GOOGLE)
http://mhintze.tripod.com/seattle/frangos.htm
The Original Frango Mints

As everybody from Seattle knows, Frango mints were originally developed here and were sold in the Frederick & Nelson department stores (that is, until Frederick's went out of business in 1992 - now they are sold in the Bon Marche stores).  But during the time I spent living on the east coast, I was stunned to learn that people from other parts of the country think that Frangos are from Chicago.

So to set the record straight, here's the deal with the origin of Frango mints.  Frangos were invented in Seattle around the beginning of the twentieth century.  It was originally a frozen desert (Frango ice cream) that was served in the Frederick & Nelson tea room, and the candy form was introduced a few years later.

Then, in 1929, Donald Edward Frederick - the surviving co-founder of F&N - turned 69 and decided to retire.  He sold the business to Marshall Field & Co. for $6 million.  Recognizing a good thing when they bought it, Marshall Field then decided to produce and sell Frango mints in their flagship store in Chicago.  The Frederick & Nelson subsidiary, meanwhile, continued to produce and sell Frangos in the Northwest.

1n 1982, after mismanaging Frederick's nearly to death, Marshall Field sold Frederick & Nelson to Batus Inc. (the first of three owners in its final 10 years - none of which were able to bring F&N back to its former glory), but they retained the rights to Frangos (and licensed back to F&N the right to produce and sell Frangos in the Northwest).


(GOOGLE)
http://mhintze.tripod.com/seattle/frangos_article.htm
Chicago Sun-Times
 Sunday, March 14, 1999, Pg. 4

 The Bittersweet Truth
 by Bryan Smith

It is small and square, and when you drop it on your tongue it melts deliciously, oh-so-slowly into a yummy lump of mint and chocolate.

 And, of course, as everyone knows, it is Chicago -- maybe not quite Wrigley Field and Michael Jordan, but without question a city institution.

 Tourists take home boxes as gifts; families give them to friends as "a taste of Chicago."

 The Frango Mint belongs to Chicago. Right?

 Well, there's, er, this other city. Where the treats were invented. Where they were named. Where they still are made.

 Call Chicago the home of the Frango there, and they'll look at you as if you're claiming Starbucks and Microsoft, too.

 "I love Chicago," says Robert Spector, Seattle resident and author of The Legend of Frango Chocolate.

 "You can claim Michael Jordan. You just can't claim Frangos. I have a lot of friends from Chicago, and I have to set them straight."
 (...)

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 FRANGO
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: CANDIES.  FIRST USE: 19180601.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19180601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73100803
 Filing Date
September 22, 1976
 Change In Registration
CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED
 Registration Number
1064058
 Registration Date
April 19, 1977
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) MARSHALL FIELD & COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE 111 NORTH STATE STREET CHICAGO ILLINOIS 60690
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
L PAUL BURD
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   19970529
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


(TRADEMARKS)
Record Mark
 FRANGO
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: candies, cookie mixes and cocoa.  FIRST USE: 19180601.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19180601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
74331157
 Filing Date
November 16, 1992
 Published for Opposition
 April 6, 1993
 Registration Number
1779123
 Registration Date
June 29, 1993
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) MARSHALL FIELD & COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE 111 North State Street Chicago ILLINOIS 60690
(LAST LISTED OWNER) TARGET BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT, BY CHANGE OF NAME MINNESOTA 1000 NICOLLET MALL TPS-3165 MINNEJAPLIS MINNESOTA 55403
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
SHAYNE L. BROWN
 Prior Registrations
1064058;1279145;1297227
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).  SECTION 8(10-YR) 20030804.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   20030804
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 08:06:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:06:22 EST
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.030622.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "BBQ" is not an entry in the OED.  The OED definitely does initials--see
the first page for each letter.  No "BBQ"?  Not used enough?  Can't find three
citations?
   Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.
   Google has--are you ready for this?--5,450,000 hits for "BBQ."
   There are 356 "BBQ" trademarks, but most all are from the 1980s to the
present.
   Actually, "barbecue" should be "BBC," but that stands for something else.
   Ancestry should help here.  I searched "BBQ" with "barbecue*"
or"barbeque*" or "patio*" (for classified ads).  I also searched titles in the Library of
Congress.  I didn't check ProQuest.  There are two Marion newspaper "hits" for
1947, but they're actually from 1974.  I couldn't find anything before the
1950s!


   14 February 1951, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL (Reno, Nevada), pg. 13, col. 9
classified ad:
NEW home with fireplace, patio and b.bq.

   5 March 1953, OXNARD PRESS COURIER (Oxnard, California), pg. 19, col. 2
classified ad:
PRICE REDUCED on this beautiful, 2 bedroom home, has BBQ, water softener and
is a bargain at $2,000 down.

   26 November 1953, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL (Reno, Nevada), pg. 24, col. 6
classified ad:
Build a fence, patio or BBQ.

   26 June 1958, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. 3. col. 8
ad:
Chuck Steal...69c
BBQ WITH ADOLPH'S TENDERIZER--lb

   4 May 1961, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illionois), pg. 10,
col. 1 ad:
Dukee BBQ Spice...11-oz. jar 89c

   26 July 1962, CHRONCILE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.15, col. 1 ad:
Androck...The Biggest Name in BBQ Tools


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 12:44:11 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:44:11 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <DD560B46-0819-11D8-A578-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.084411.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

It's how you identify real cheeseheads:

Us: wis-con-sin

Them: wi-scon-sin

This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
usual creation of a single onset is involved.

dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)


two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).

last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
accent).

undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 12:56:41 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:56:41 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bbc225b5d375@[131.151.65.119]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.085641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
have it (as a noun) as:

1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
2) penis
3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).

If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
know. Some of my best .........

dInIs

>This message is solely for Americans. British subscribers should read
>no further and promptly delete what follows.
>
>   Okay? All set? Here goes.
>
>   I quote from the _St. Louis Post Dispatch_ Oct. 26, 2003, pg.
>2C/1-3; article by Jerry Berger, title: "At least St. Louisan Didn't
>Call Prince Andrew a Bum!":
>   'RE-MEMBER, SUE: It's too bad Sue Engelhardt doesn't live in
>Pittsburgh.  Residents of that town have been subjected to days of
>lessons in the proper behavior toward royalty.  But Engelhardt, the
>princess of Peabody Coal, is a hometowner so excited at meeting HRH
>The Duke of York, (aka Prince Andrew) at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel
>Wednesday night, that she had the young prince baffled.  Engelhardt
>discussed coal-to-Great Britain, at which point Prince Andrew
>deadpanned, "We use gas!"  Turning to the prince, who was in town to
>raise money for the English Speaking Union-St. Louis Branch,
>Engelhardt told him, "You're the best tool we have."  Prince Andrew
>shot back, "I'm a tool?" For the record, Sue, "tool" is British slang
>for something that a member of the Royal Family is unlikely to
>mention in polite company.  Still, the allusion drew a faint smile
>from Andrew's otherwise scowling Special Branch security detail.
>Andrew's impromptu admission at the beginning of his prepared remarks
>that he finally understood the well-intentioned reference was the
>only spark in a lackluster, four-minute royal oration.'
>
>Gerald Cohen,
>an unabashed Anglophile

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 13:55:47 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:55:47 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_resyllabification?=
In-Reply-To: <200310270442.AOV75517@mirapointmr1.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.085547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:42 PM 10/26/2003, you wrote:
>i should have been clearer.  both "Misty Crivver" and "Sandi Proy" had
>syllable-initial aspiration; that's what made them so very noticeable.
>
>bob edwards tends to have ingressive variants of syllable-initial (but
>not syllable-final -- it's some sort of fortition) b, so his
>resyllabification is also easy to hear.

A friend of mine who immigrated to the US from Germany many years ago was
quite astonished to meet his new neighbor, Baugh Bellis, or so he
thought.  He and Bob Ellis now laugh about it.
But the resyllabification is quite real, especially with frequently uttered
constructions.  Often the resyllabification is driven by what Venneman
called 'syllable contact laws' (I know he didn't invent them, but he's
written on them in the past twenty years or so).  I'm pretty sure that's
what's going on with Mystic River, where __k] [r__ isn't as good a syllable
contact as __] [kr__.  And for Baugh Bedwards and his kin it may well be
that /b/'s are normally released in final position, permitting them to be
captured by the stressed onset-less following syllable--another syllable
law (Maximal Onset Principle).
Bybee's latest book argues for the role of frequency in phonological
restructuring, although I think she's wrong in her arguments about its
effect on allophones.  But still, if compounds are uttered frequently
enough they lose their phonological independence, at which point their
parts are available for purely phonology-driven realignment.

Geoff


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 14:09:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:09:56 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.080956.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis (+ ads-l),
  Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool" does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than among our British friends.
 
Gerald

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British and American English
	
	

	Gerald,
	
	I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
	have it (as a noun) as:
	
	1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
	2) penis
	3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
	
	If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
	know. Some of my best .........
	
	dInIs
	


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 14:28:42 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:28:42 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE93@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.102842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
tool-talkers have the edge.

I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
wager.

dInIs

>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>among our British friends.
>
>Gerald
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>and American English
>
>
>
>       Gerald,
>
>       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
>       have it (as a noun) as:
>
>       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>       2) penis
>       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
>
>       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
>       know. Some of my best .........
>
>       dInIs
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 15:03:09 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:03:09 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.090309.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis (+ ads-l),
The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew "You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards (snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
 
Gerald

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British and American English
	
	

	Gerald,
	
	Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
	this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
	different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
	tool-talkers have the edge.
	
	I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
	of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
	unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
	the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
	wager.
	
	dInIs
	
	>Dennis (+ ads-l),
	>   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
	>telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
	>does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
	>is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
	>among our British friends.
	>
	>Gerald
	>
	>       -----Original Message-----
	>       From: Dennis R. Preston
	>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
	>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
	>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
	>and American English
	>
	>
	>
	>       Gerald,
	>
	>       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
	>       have it (as a noun) as:
	>
	>       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
	>       2) penis
	>       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
	>
	>       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
	>       know. Some of my best .........
	>
	>       dInIs
	>
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Oct 27 15:35:30 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:35:30 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <12c.33ee6dd3.2cce2bfe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.103530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.

FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Oct 27 15:35:30 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:35:30 -0500
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
In-Reply-To: <139.26e2ad3a.2ccd22ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.103530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 26 Oct 2003, at 8:14, James A. Landau wrote:

> Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
> will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.
>
> Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
> clumsy speakers?
>
>         - Jim Landau

I've never heard "beatify" pronounced that way.  I'd guess it's an
unusual misconstruing of the word.  Your interlocutors musn't have
been Catholic, eh?


>
> :) said Tom, parenthetically.


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:13:53 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:13:53 -0500
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
In-Reply-To: <3F9CF4F2.18124.E5941ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.111353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
>> will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.
>>
>> Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
>> clumsy speakers?

I have not heard <beautify>, but I have heard <beetify>.

Bethany

>>
>>         - Jim Landau
>
>I've never heard "beatify" pronounced that way.  I'd guess it's an
>unusual misconstruing of the word.  Your interlocutors musn't have
>been Catholic, eh?
>
>
>>
>> :) said Tom, parenthetically.
>
>
>Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
>Merriam-Webster, Inc.
>jdespres at merriam-webster.com
>http://www.merriam-webster.com
>

Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at utk.edu>, http://www.BethanyKayDumas.org
Professor of English & Chair, IDP Linguistics Committee
301 McClung Tower/The University of Tennessee
Knoxville, Tennessee 37996-0430 USA
Telephone: 865-974-6965, 865-974-6926 (FAX)
English Dep't: http://web.utk.edu/~english/
Linguistics: http://web.utk.edu/~germslav/lingdefault.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:20:40 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:20:40 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE94@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.122040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Gerald,

Surely you jest. One line from one US speaker and imagined Brit
avoidences from you and there "must exist" such a differences? Ima
need a lil more than that.

dInIs

PS: Seems to be some age stuff going on. My quick survey of 6 US
English-speaking colleagues finds all the older ones (50+) firmly in
grasp of the penile meaning of "tool"; the younger ones were
mystified.



>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew
>"You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning
>this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards
>(snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her
>remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making
>that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits
>must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
>
>Gerald
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>and American English
>
>
>
>       Gerald,
>
>       Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
>       this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
>       different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
>       tool-talkers have the edge.
>
>       I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
>       of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
>       unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
>       the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
>       wager.
>
>       dInIs
>
>       >Dennis (+ ads-l),
>       >   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>       >telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>       >does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>       >is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>       >among our British friends.
>       >
>       >Gerald
>       >
>       >       -----Original Message-----
>       >       From: Dennis R. Preston
>       >       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>       >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       >       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>       >and American English
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >       Gerald,
>       >
>       >       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool"
>that we don't? I
>       >       have it (as a noun) as:
>       >
>       >       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>       >       2) penis
>       >       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty
>clearly derived from 2).
>       >
>       >       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the
>Brits, I need to
>       >       know. Some of my best .........
>       >
>       >       dInIs
>       >
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:42:54 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:42:54 -0800
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bbc2c2c55350@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.084254.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
> Us: wis-con-sin
> Them: wi-scon-sin

yes, of course.  i knew that.  nice example, because this time
maximizing onsets *eliminates* aspiration.  entirely within a word --
though my pronunciation of Wisconsin has a secondary accent on the
first syllable, as if the name were Wiss Consin.  real cheeseheads
don't have the secondary accent.

arnold


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 16:47:46 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:47:46 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20resyllabification?=
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.114746.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

duhnis,
You mean that Cheeseheads have no aspirations in Wisconsin?
Your friend,
ræn

In a message dated 10/27/03 7:33:00 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:


> arnold,
> 
> It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
> 
> Us: wis-con-sin
> 
> Them: wi-scon-sin
> 
> This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
> bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
> usual creation of a single onset is involved.
> 
> dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
> 


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:05:35 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:05:35 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <9CB75E7C-089C-11D8-B815-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.130535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Good point. the aspiration on /k/ clearly disappears in the cluster.

Funny a half-baked southerner like me doesn't have any secondary
stress of the sort you indicate, but, since I delete initial
syllables (where possible), maybe that accounts for it. My favorite
example of this stress versus deletion interplay is 'Indianapolis.'
Southerners go for INduhNAPlus (with stress on the first) but quickly
go for NNNAPlus, with a monosyllabic but trimoraic first part.

dInIs





>On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>>Us: wis-con-sin
>>Them: wi-scon-sin
>
>yes, of course.  i knew that.  nice example, because this time
>maximizing onsets *eliminates* aspiration.  entirely within a word --
>though my pronunciation of Wisconsin has a secondary accent on the
>first syllable, as if the name were Wiss Consin.  real cheeseheads
>don't have the secondary accent.
>
>arnold

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:06:35 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:06:35 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <14a.25e6d173.2ccea632@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.130635.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yes, I aspirated only after leaving the state.

>duhnis,
>You mean that Cheeseheads have no aspirations in Wisconsin?
>Your friend,
>ræn
>
>In a message dated 10/27/03 7:33:00 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  arnold,
>>
>>  It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>>
>>  Us: wis-con-sin
>>
>>  Them: wi-scon-sin
>>
>>  This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>>  bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>>  usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>>
>>  dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 17:09:25 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:09:25 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20So=20there=20really?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20are=20differences=20between=20British=20and=20American?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20English?=
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.120925.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/27/03 10:30:24 AM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:


> Dennis (+ ads-l),
> The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew "You're 
> the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning this would have 
> for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards (snickers).  My guess is 
> she was mortified when she learned how her remark was perceived, and I can't 
> imagine a British socialite making that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic 
> difference in speech habits must exist to account for the American socialite's 
> faux pas.
> 
> Gerald
> 

It seems to me that the same response would have come forth from, say, John 
Kennedy Jr. and his bodyguards had someone in St. Louis said this to him under 
these circumstances ((I realize there is no way to put this exact thought 
experiment to the emp;irical test). TOOL = penis has been around in the US since 
at least the 1950s, and it is pretty well-known in American slang -- well-known 
enough to have made it into the latest AMERICAN HERITAGE, where it is listed 
as "vulgar slang." If Andrew was "astonished," it would only be because, in 
its unmarked usage, TOOL refers to some inanimate object. Calling him a "tool" 
without elaboration in a formal social context violates the Maxims of Manner 
and Quantity. It is about the same thing as saying, "You are our best shovel." 
Since the utterance did not make sense contextually, it caused the hearers to 
scan their brains for possible meanings ("tool of the capitalist conspiracy"? 
"fool"? "penis"?). 


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:13:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:13:41 -0500
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bbc2f5a64778@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.121341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:20 PM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Gerald,
>
>Surely you jest. One line from one US speaker and imagined Brit
>avoidences from you and there "must exist" such a differences? Ima
>need a lil more than that.
>
>dInIs
>
>PS: Seems to be some age stuff going on. My quick survey of 6 US
>English-speaking colleagues finds all the older ones (50+) firmly in
>grasp of the penile meaning of "tool"; the younger ones were
>mystified.


Well, as one of the Older Ones (seems more mythic when I capitalize),
while I am indeed firmly in grasp of the penile "tool", as it were, I
don't think I have the requisite metonymy (if that's the right trope)
to allow me to interpret "You're a tool" as "You're a prick" (on
either meaning).  For me, "tool" applied to men (as opposed to their
equipment), as in "He's a real tool", evokes 'nerd'--archaic slang,
probably--but nothing more eyebrow-raising.  The example below does
seem a bit sniggery, probably because *having* a tool does allow the
penile reading, although *being* a tool doesn't, and "You're the best
tool we have" involves both.

larry

>
>
>
>>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>>The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew
>>"You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning
>>this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards
>>(snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her
>>remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making
>>that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits
>>must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
>>
>>Gerald
>>
>>       -----Original Message-----
>>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM
>>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>>and American English
>>
>>
>>
>>       Gerald,
>>
>>       Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
>>       this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
>>       different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
>>       tool-talkers have the edge.
>>
>>       I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
>>       of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
>>       unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
>>       the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
>>       wager.
>>
>>       dInIs
>>
>>       >Dennis (+ ads-l),
>>       >   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>>       >telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>>       >does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>>       >is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>>       >among our British friends.
>>       >
>>       >Gerald
>>       >
>>       >       -----Original Message-----
>>       >       From: Dennis R. Preston
>>       >       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>>       >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>       >       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>>       >and American English
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >       Gerald,
>>       >
>>       >       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool"
>>that we don't? I
>>       >       have it (as a noun) as:
>>       >
>>       >       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>>       >       2) penis
>>       >       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty
>>clearly derived from 2).
>>       >
>>       >       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the
>>Brits, I need to
>>       >       know. Some of my best .........
>>       >
>>       >       dInIs
>>       >
>>
>>       --
>>       Dennis R. Preston
>>       University Distinguished Professor
>>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>             Asian & African Languages
>>       Michigan State University
>>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Oct 27 17:25:07 2003
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:25:07 -0500
Subject: Frango Mints (1918)
In-Reply-To: <23B4159A.524B6BB3.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.122507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031027/4533da28/attachment.html>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:36:39 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:36:39 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bbc2c2c55350@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.123639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:44 AM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>
>Us: wis-con-sin
>
>Them: wi-scon-sin

There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
well.



>This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>
>dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>
>
>two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
>especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
>people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
>morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
>the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
>some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
>Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
>just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
>again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
>
>last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
>took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
>like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
>"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
>name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
>moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
>accent).
>
>undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Oct 27 18:15:55 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:15:55 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <p04320408bbc306ff701a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.131555.0500.>

For me (born in SE Michigan but spent my teen years in mUwOki), this is not
a matter of initial syllable deletion.  The initial [s] of "sconsin" is
syllabic.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:37 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: resyllabification


At 8:44 AM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>
>Us: wis-con-sin
>
>Them: wi-scon-sin

There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
well.



>This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>
>dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>
>
>two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
>especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
>people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
>morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
>the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
>some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
>Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
>just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
>again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
>
>last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
>took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
>like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
>"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
>name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
>moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
>accent).
>
>undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 18:59:40 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:59:40 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <000601c39cb6$cd50a060$1c15fea9@ibm12258>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.135940.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:15 PM -0500 10/27/03, Herbert Stahlke wrote:
>For me (born in SE Michigan but spent my teen years in mUwOki), this is not
>a matter of initial syllable deletion.  The initial [s] of "sconsin" is
>syllabic.
>
>Herb
>

Yes, I recall that possibility now that you mention it, from my years
(1977-81) in Madison.  And with respect to my previous comment

>There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
>a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
>ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
>first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
>the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
>for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
>the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
>Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
>well.

I knew the article was around here somewhere.  I located it in the
print-flesh and then found the Nexis version excerpted below.  The
observation on the shibboleth is from the (wonderful) novelist Lorrie
Moore, a native New Yorker who has for many years been a writer in
residence at UW-Madison.  (I've left in a little piece of the article
that will be nostalgic for other ex-Madisonians on the list.)
Interesting to see how a non-linguist describes the resyllabification
effects...

--Larry, a former neighbor of Lake Wingra and the Vilas Park Zoo
============================
New York Times

November 28, 1998, Saturday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section B; Page 9; Column 1; Arts & Ideas/Cultural Desk

  HEADLINE: Life Is Grim? Yes, but Good For a Laugh

  BYLINE:  By BRUCE WEBER

  DATELINE: MADISON, Wis.

  "Wa-SKAHN-sin," Lorrie Moore said, articulating the syllables
carefully, a lesson in local linguistics. "What you do, instead of
breaking the syllables between the S and the C, you break between the
A -- not usually in Wisconsin, of course -- and the S. So it's W-A,
then there's a break, and there's S-K-A, with a nasal A."

  She was entertaining herself, much the way the characters in her
stories and novels often do, playing with words, turning them this
way and that, being impossibly clever. In the stories, it's usually a
sign of a character's nervousness or discomfort or sense of crisis.

  "An attempt to amuse in times of deep unamusement," is the author's
description of the impulse.

  But Ms. Moore herself, a reluctantly transplanted New Yorker walking
the campus of the University of Wisconsin here, where she has taught
in the English department for 14 years, seemed genuinely amused: Look
how well I've assimilated!

  "I came here in the fall of 1984, and really, I thought 'Uh-uh,' "
she said. "I was 27, by far the youngest person in the department.
Everybody then was living the life that I'm living now, where you go
to bed at 9:30 because your kids get you up at 6:30. I actually like
Madison now. But it's a wonderful place to have a kid. When you start
to have a little arthritis in the knees, it's easy to get around."

  Dark-haired and dark-eyed, with a thoughtful expression but a ready
giggle, Ms. Moore, who is 41, has the look and demeanor of a pretty
college girl grown up -- or maybe, in jeans and a peacoat, a soccer
mom, though her son is only 4, a little young for soccer. Her husband
is a lawyer. They live in a house on Lake Wingra, "the most feted" of
Madison's three lakes, she said, though that doesn't sound right.
Lakes Monona and Mendota are larger, more central and better known.
Feted?

  "With an i," she said.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 22:15:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:37 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1938, 1949)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.171537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BBQ

   ProQuest has it earlier.  There are tons of bad hits, so I may have missed something.  Oh, I hate searching these tiny classifieds!


Classified Ad 11 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 28, 1938. p. B7 (1 page):
(Col. 2--ed.)
   RAMBLING RANCH
$14,500--Rail fence and olive trees!
Built around a large brick patio
with BBQ, wonderful for parties!

Classified Ad 8 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 21, 1939. p. A19 (1 page):
(Col. 4--ed.)
$125, 3 B.Rm. Den, patio, B-B-Q, G. & W. pd.

Classified Ad 27 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jun 16, 1948. p. 11 (1 page):
FINE LOS ANGELES HOME
(...) Living room 15x25, fireplace, paneled wall; louver doors to dining room with adj. cupboard, patio, BBQ.

Display Ad 15 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 4, 1949. p. 15 (1 page):
   Simply serve hot VIRIGINIA PIG PORK BBQ on rice, noodles, mashed potatoes or corn bread.  Add a fresh vegetable and a green salad and you have a complete meal.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
OJL's Ga. - 1927-36
The black country music of Georgia.
Tampa Red;  Lillie Mae.;  Amos Easton;  Thomas Andrew Dorsey;  Barbecue Bob.;  Buddy Moss;  Sam Montgomery;  Sylvester Weaver;  Charley Lincoln;  Rufus Quillian;  Ben Quillian;  Eddie Head;  Kokomo Arnold;  Sara Martin;  Luther Magby;  J M Gates, Rev.
1980, 1927
English  Sound Recording : Music : Multiple forms :  LP recording 1 sound disc : analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ; 12 in.
Santa Monica, Calif. : Origin Jazz Library,
Contents: Down in spirit blues (Tampa Red) -- Jealous hearted man (Buddy Moss) -- Wise like that (Lillie Mae) -- King of knaves, no. 2 (Sam Montgomery) -- Rock pile blues (Sylvester Weaver) -- Hey lawdy mama (Bumble Bee Slim) -- Ugly papa (Charlie Lincoln) -- Keep it clean (Rufus & Ben Quillian) -- Lord, I'm the true vine (Eddie Head & family) -- Model "T" woman blues (Kokomo Arnold) -- Hear me beefing at you (Georgia Tom) -- Useless blues (Sara Martin) -- Crooked woman blues (B.B.Q. Bob) -- Jesus is getting ready for the great day (Luther Magby) -- David & Uriah (Rev. J.M. Gates).

(BBQ Bob or Barbecue Bob?  The earliest "BBQ" in OCLC WorldCat by year is 1974--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
SANTA MARIA BARBECUE

   From Ancestry.


   13 October 1982, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. B-5, col. 1:
   The evening will feature a cocktail reception, Santa Maria western barbecue, fall season indoor polo match, celebrity polo match at half time, dancing to Country Sounds and South Loomis Quickstep.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 22:40:39 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:40:39 -0600
Subject: 1898: 'Hygeia and "hot dogs"'--Is Hygeia a soft drink?
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.164039.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Feb. 1898, The Yale Record (a student humor publication) had an
item which spoke of students 'freely indulging in Hygeia and "hot
dogs" (last line of the passage below my signoff).  Would anyone know
what Hygeia is? It seems to be something like a soft drink, although
I don't remember seeing it elsewhere.

    The passage below is part of the material on "hot dog" discovered
by Barry Popik. This particular item was first reprinted in Comments
on Etymology, Nov. 1995, p. 12.

Gerald Cohen

Feb. 5, 1898 -- The Yale Record, vol. 26, no. 8, page title 'EDITORIAL':
        'These are indeed days of degeneracy.  The visible muscles of
the Owl inordinately twitched when he learned of the sudden departure
in the meetings of his wise and temperate scholars, from the practice
of Sophistry to the use of the genial and soothing weed.  A somewhat
similar smilet o'er came him when his "next entry neighbor" also
informed him that his cultured protegées [sic: -ée] had decided to
use no violence in regard to the manner in which they would adjust
themselves to their chairs, and that in future they would "sit
unrestrainedly" around the chosen apartments freely indulging in
Hygeia and "hot dogs".'


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 28 00:04:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:04:35 -0500
Subject: Foodtainment; Hand in the Cookie Jar (1933)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.190435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FOODTAINMENT

   "Foodtainment" was used in the title of one of the papers of last year's Oxford Symposium (now published).  There aren't a whole lot of hits for it.

(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark FOODTAINMENT
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Food and entertainment magazine for the public. FIRST USE: 20010628. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010628
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76439818
Filing Date August 12, 2002
Published for Opposition June 17, 2003
Registration Number 2761289
Registration Date September 9, 2003
Owner (REGISTRANT) Lam, Steven INDIVIDUAL HONG KONG 1656 Mason Street San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94133
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

---------------------------------------------------------------
HAND IN THE COOKIE JAR

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "with one hand in the till/cookie jar," meaning "discovered or caught in the act."  It's dated "20C."


City Hall Gossip
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 5, 1933. p. A4 (1 page:
   Charlie got caught with his hand in the cookie jar the other day, pulling one of the oldest and shabbiest of political tricks.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct 28 02:15:24 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:15:24 -0500
Subject: 1898: 'Hygeia and "hot dogs"'--Is Hygeia a soft drink?
In-Reply-To: <p04310100bbc1eb561cae@[131.151.65.119]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.211524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... Would anyone know what Hygeia is?

Not for certain maybe. I gave a few possibilities on this list in March 2002.

My current guess is "Hygeia" = "Hygeia water" = [a brand of] "distilled
water" (there was such a brand at the time, and a pretty common one, I
believe). Maybe bottled water and hot dogs was a students' (humorous)
version of wine and beefsteak, or something like that.

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 28 03:19:20 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:19:20 -0800
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
In-Reply-To: <200310270308.h9R38g614926@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.191920.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A JSTOR search turns up a bibiography reference in a review article in the
The American Economic Review, Vol. 29, No. 4. (Dec., 1939) to a
publication by D. Lasser called The Sixty Dollars at Sixty Pension
Plan: Minimum Security for our Senior Citizens, published by the
Workers Alliance of America. No date for the Lasser is given, and I
can't find it in the Stanford, Berkeley, or LOC catalogues, so
there's no way to tell if it's an antedate for the cites below.

It'd be interesting to know who first came up with this one -- it has
the sound of a New Deal coining. It begins to show up a lot in the
economics & finance literatures around 1940.

Geoff Nunberg


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Senior Citizen (1937)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Yes, it's earlier on ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.  That's
>California politics for you.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
>       New Pension Plan Offered
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1937.                   p. 5 (1 page):
>    SACRAMENTO, April 14. (Exclusive)--Robert Noble of Hollywood took
>the rostrum in the Assembly today and addressed members of the
>Legislature on his "roperty (sic) certificates" for senior citizens
>of California.
>
>       LETTERS To THE TIMES
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
>    Every "senior citizen" who would receive his "$30 every Thursday"
>would spend the warrants as quickly as possible to avoid having to
>attach the weekly 2-cent stamp required.
>
>       Just Supposing It Happened
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
>    it will be over the determined protest of John Taxpayer, indeed,
>that either the "senior citizens," or those who fell for their
>optimism currency, collect even the full amount per ticket
>represented by the stamps licked and stuck thereon.
>
>       Haight Assails Pension Plan
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Oct 12, 1938.                   p. 6 (1 page)
>
>       THE GREAT GAME OF POLITICS
>        FRANK R KENT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).
>Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 28, 1938.                   p. 7 (1 page):
>    WASHINGTON, Oct. 27.--One of the major developments in American
>politics, frequently commented on in recent months, is the
>multiplicity of new schemes for granting and increasing pensions to
>the aged--or, as some politicans are tenderly beginning to call
>them, "our senior citizens."
>
>
>(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
>       Townsend Successors Still Strong In West
>        By Elmer T. Peterson. Special Correspondence of The Post..
>The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 31,
>1938.                   p. B9 (1 page):
>    The build-up is that every "senior citizen" has done his share of
>the world's work and is now entitled to a living.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 28 09:05:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:05:00 EST
Subject: Kaiser & Kipfel (1885)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.040500.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISC.

   I was busy running around today telling the Gotham Center and my city
council representative about the history of New York City.

TGIF--The ad that inspired my recent "TGIF" post is also in print in the
November 2003 GOURMET, first two pages.  It's for the New BMW 5 Series.

GOURMET--A GUIDE TO AMERICA'S BEST ROADFOOD by Jane and Michael Stern--This
is a 16-page supplement to the November GOURMET.  There's a photo of Ben's
Chili Bowl, Washington, D.C., that's known for "half smoke" (see recent post).
It's a nice supplement that...the Sterns did 20 years ago, almost word-for-word.
 I love the Sterns, but they just have to retire.  They get paid for decades
of the same stuff; I do new stuff every day in my spare time from parking
tickets, and make nothing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
KAISER & KIPFEL

   Is "kipfel" recorded anywhere?  There are over 1,000 Google hits.
   This Ancestry article is a nice find.


   22 September 1885, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 3, col. 1:
_THE BREAD-MAKERS._

_HOW THE VARIOUS KINDS ARE MADE_
   _TO SUIT ALL TASTES._

_Steam Bakeries and the Bread They_
   _Make--"Boston Brown," "Home-_
   _Made," and Other Varieties_
   _Bread and People._
[Philadelphia Times.]
(...)
   A recent invention in bread is what is known in the trade as "steam."  It
isw made of the very best flour and baked in air-tight pans that enclose it on
all sides.  It is thus baked in its own steam and has a fine flavor.  The
tins mould it into a symmestrical loaf about twelve inches in length, perfectly
round and squared at the ends.
      VARIOUS TRADE NAMES.
   Only two bakers in the city make Boston brown bread, which is composed of
yellow corn and rye meal sweetened with molasses or brown sugar.  One baker
devotes his attention to what is known as aerated bread.  This is manufactured
altogether by steam and is peculiarly light and spongy.  While in course of
preparation the dough is charged with carbonic acid gas, which renders the bread
light without detracting in any way from its nutritious qualities,  Dyspeptics
can eat it without inconvenience.
   One of the most popular breads is a round compact loaf, which is known in
the trade as "home-made."  A small quantity of white corn meal is mixed with
the flour, which makes the bread firm and moist and renders it possible to keep
it several days in a fresh condition.
   The Schwartz and Kimmel bread, which is found on the lunch counter of
every beer saloon and is much prized and almost exclusively eaten by the Germans,
is made of black rye.  Its manufacture is confined to the small German bakers.
 Two or three Jewish bakers make the wafer-like Passover bread, which is
eaten by the failthful Jews during the great feast from which it takes its name.
   The large bakers have a variety of trade names for their goods, such as
Vienna, steam, cream, cream French, cream Vienna, home-made, bran and rye,
breakfast rolls, finger rolls, Vienna rolls, kaiser semmel and kipfels.  Among the
bakers if cheaper breads their goods are classed as rolls, twists, box and
brick.  The long and square Vienna loaves and their various imitations are most
eaten.
(...)
      BREAD AND PEOPLE.
   New Englanders are very fond of brown bread, which they eat with their
Sunday morning dish of baked beans.  During the week they eat the ordinary grades
of bread and are particularly partial to fresh tea-biscuit at night.  The
southerners eat corn bread, smoking hot, and their wheat bread is usually small,
flat soda biscuits, which are not palatable when cold.  Strange as it may
seem, the negro never eats corn bread if he can help it and prefers his wheat
bread warm and spongy.
   The English and Irish are fond of a peculiar bread baked on the hearth in
round loaves.  They like hteir bread cold and do not object if it is stale.
Americans as a class prefer wheat bread as white and fresh as possible.  The
Germans eat rye bread almost exclusively and are particularly fond of the
kimmel or seed bread.
   "The Italians and Chinese eat stale bread exclusively," said a baker, "and
I never yet heard of an Italian or a Chinaman suffering from dyspepsia or
the toothache."


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Oct 28 09:30:14 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:30:14 -0000
Subject: Tiger
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.093014.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Further to the Bulletin quotation that I put forward, regarding the possible origins of 'tiger' as in 'three times three and a tiger', here is the relevant material from Dallas C. Dickey, Seargent S. Prentiss: Whig Orator of the Old South (1945; reprint 1970) p. 394:

Another story widely circulated and remembered is that of how Prentiss spoke from the top of a lion's cage. In one of his political campaigns he was followed by a traveling circus, much to his annoyance. Just as Prentiss was in the midst of a speech, the circus, with its elephants, lions, and other animals, would be seen approaching. Their attention distracted, many of the crowd would leave to view the circus on the march, causing Prentiss to feel that his campaign was being injured. Finally he went to the circus manager and registered a complaint. The man replied that by following Prentiss he could get his best crowds. An agreement was worked out whereby they traveled together, the proprietor allowing Prentiss to finish his speech before he opened the circus to the crowd. In addition, he permitted Prentiss to use as a speaker's platform one of the circus wagons with a lion's cage on it. Sometimes for a better position from which to harangue the crowd, Prentiss would climb on top of the cage. This novel and elevated position added fire to his speaking. When he wished for added commotion, especially when attacking his opponents, he would prod the lion into roaring by pushing his cane through the bars of the cage.

While it fits with the idea of goading a wild animal, the Bulletin's hearsay story seems to have mixed its species. Pity.

Jonathon Green


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Oct 28 13:47:04 2003
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:47:04 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.084704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
: On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

: > Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.

: FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.

Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)

There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
not an abbreviation.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Oct 28 13:59:38 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:59:38 -0500
Subject: Firenado
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.085938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031028/c0e47381/attachment.html>

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Oct 28 14:50:09 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:09 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <06bf01c39d5a$0395c3f0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.095009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 8:47, David Bowie wrote:

 > Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
> sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
> as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
> BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
> the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)
>
> There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
> least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
> not an abbreviation.
>
Not being a definer, I can't speak authoritatively about this, but if
"BBQ" is pronounced like "barbecue," I would take that as
confirmation that it's an abbreviation, not an acronym.  If it were an
acronym (i.e., an intitialism that has achieved the status of an
independent word, as opposed to an initialism that merely stands
for a word), wouldn't you expect it to be pronounced something like
"beebeecue"?  And wouldn't that pronunciation sometimes take
inflections, as in  "summer beebeecues" or "I had beebeecued ribs
on Saturday"?  I don't think such pronunciations are attested,
though.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:01:33 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:01:33 -0500
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
In-Reply-To: <p05111b06bbc38d614c02@[10.0.1.5]>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.120133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> A JSTOR search turns up a bibiography reference in a review article in the
> The American Economic Review, Vol. 29, No. 4. (Dec., 1939) to a
> publication by D. Lasser called The Sixty Dollars at Sixty Pension
> Plan: Minimum Security for our Senior Citizens, published by the
> Workers Alliance of America. No date for the Lasser is given, and I
> can't find it in the Stanford, Berkeley, or LOC catalogues, so
> there's no way to tell if it's an antedate for the cites below.

The University of Michigan Library has this; it's dated 1939.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:10:00 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:10:00 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.121000.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, I do pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue", while still also saying "barBQ" when I am thinking "barbeque".

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:50 am
Subject: Re: BBQ (1951)
> Not being a definer, I can't speak authoritatively about this, but if
> "BBQ" is pronounced like "barbecue," I would take that as
> confirmation that it's an abbreviation, not an acronym.  If it
> were an acronym (i.e., an intitialism that has achieved the status of an
> independent word, as opposed to an initialism that merely stands
> for a word), wouldn't you expect it to be pronounced something like
> "beebeecue"?  And wouldn't that pronunciation sometimes take
> inflections, as in  "summer beebeecues" or "I had beebeecued ribs
> on Saturday"?  I don't think such pronunciations are attested,
> though.
>
> Joanne
>
>
> Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
> Merriam-Webster, Inc.
> jdespres at merriam-webster.com
> http://www.merriam-webster.com
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:16:20 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:16:20 -0800
Subject: Firenado
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031028085932.0263ba00@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.091620.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our local (Portland, OR) newscast last night called it a "fire devil" (cf.
"dust devil").

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:59 AM -0500 Geoff Nathan
<an6993 at WAYNE.EDU> wrote:

> I thought I heard a brand new word this morning on CNN during the 5:50 AM
> newscast when they showed film of a fire whirlwind in Southern California
> that they called (some of the time) a 'firenado'.  I checked Google and
> the word has actually been around a couple of years but the search
> generated only 7-9 hits.  It's not in the ADS-L archives.
>
> Google helpfully asked whether I meant 'Fernando'.
>
> Geoff



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Oct 28 19:13:20 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:13:20 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <4343afa43452ec.43452ec4343afa@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.141320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 12:10, George Thompson wrote:

> Actually, I do pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue", while still also saying "barBQ" when I am thinking "barbeque".

Well, if you both pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue" and inflect it in
the same way a noun (or a verb) would be inflected, then you're
definitely using it as an acronym, according to the style here.  And
if enough people come to use BBQ that way, the label in M-W
dictionaries will be changed; but so far that hasn't happened.

The editor in charge of abbreviations here, Kathleen Doherty, tells
me that the distinction between an abbreviation and an acronym
has grown murkier in the past ten or fifteen years -- that words
formerly thought of strictly as abbreviations (such as FBI) are now
sometimes being called acronyms.  The definition in C11 has been
changed to reflect this circumstance, though M-W definers still
hew to the old distinction in their labelling of entry-words.  Only
initialisms that are pronounced rather than spelled out or that
behave syntactically like full-fledged words (such as radar, snafu,
TKO, and OD) currently get the "acronym" label.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 28 22:38:26 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:38:26 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <06bf01c39d5a$0395c3f0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.173826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word appears very early in colonial and exploration literature, as a
Spanish word, I believe.  I can't recall the spelling, but it's something
like "barbecoa"--a guess from long-ago research on American Indian contacts
with explorers.  But it's definitely a real word.

At 08:47 AM 10/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>From:    "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>: On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>: > Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.
>
>: FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.
>
>Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
>sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
>as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
>BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
>the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)
>
>There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
>least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
>not an abbreviation.
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 01:20:36 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:20:36 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Strip Poker"
In-Reply-To: <p05111b06bbc38d614c02@[10.0.1.5]>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.202036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

strip poker (OED 1929)

1914 _L.A. Times_ 9 Apr. II9  Juvenile officers of the city and county
held a consultation yesterday over the principals in the "strip poker"
party that is alleged to have occurred in a house at No. 1261 West
Twenty-third street, Monday night, when the participants were arrested.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 29 02:20:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:20:13 EST
Subject: Antedating of "Strip Poker"
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.212013.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/28/2003 8:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


>
> strip poker (OED 1929)
>
> 1914 _L.A. Times_ 9 Apr. II9  Juvenile officers of the city and county
> held a consultation yesterday over the principals in the "strip poker"
> party that is alleged to have occurred in a house at No. 1261 West
> Twenty-third street, Monday night, when the participants were arrested.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>

  I'll take those panties and raise you...

   5 March 1912, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 2, col. 7:
5c LYRIC 5c
TONIGHT
EXTRAVAGANCE
STRIP POKER
VAUDEVILLE


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Wed Oct 29 03:19:54 2003
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:19:54 -0500
Subject: Prince Andrew
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.221954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a Brit and a former employee of the Royal Household, it seems to me that
Gerald has come closest to a possible explanation of the various reactions to
someone calling Prince Andrew a 'tool':

"It seems to me that the same response would have come forth from, say, John
Kennedy Jr. and his bodyguards had someone in St. Louis said this to him under
these circumstances ((I realize there is no way to put this exact thought
experiment to the emp;irical test). TOOL = penis has been around in the US since

at least the 1950s, and it is pretty well-known in American slang -- well-known

enough to have made it into the latest AMERICAN HERITAGE, where it is listed
as "vulgar slang." If Andrew was "astonished," it would only be because, in
its unmarked usage, TOOL refers to some inanimate object. Calling him a "tool"
without elaboration in a formal social context violates the Maxims of Manner
and Quantity. It is about the same thing as saying, "You are our best shovel."
Since the utterance did not make sense contextually, it caused the hearers to
scan their brains for possible meanings ("tool of the capitalist conspiracy"?
"fool"? "penis"?)."

There's probably more to add by way of clarification, though.  Two things:

-  My impression is that for all ages, the use of 'tool' = 'penis' is marked as
an Americanism for us.  It certainly is for me.  I don't think it's in common
use on the other side of the pond - again, certainly in my generation it isn't.
 It's obviously common enough knowledge - though not necessarily common in use
- for the bodyguards to have seen a joke, though.  Admittedly, I'm not an
'Older One', and haven't asked any, so can't speak for *them*.

-  Royal stuff:  Regarding the 'social meaning' of calling Prince Andrew a tool,
while the Maxims probably do apply, I think that the main reason why the Prince
was 'astonished' might have been that the use of the word 'tool' implies, in a
very egalitarian way, that the Royals are available to be 'used', or at least
taken advantage of, by people, organisations etc for publicity.  What the
speaker meant was clearly that Prince Andrew's support was her organisation's
best asset in its search for public recognition, funding, or whatever.  The
word 'tool' implies that they should be able to make directed use of Royal
patronage, though, and that might have been seen as a little unfortunate.  The
Royals frown on having their name linked with organisations in such a direct
manner, because it might be seen as unfair to other organisations that are just
as worthwhile but don't have the name;  look at the uproar when the Princess
Diana Memorial Trust was set up and immediately became very, very rich because
of the high-profile name.  Since then, the Royals are wary of things like that
because of a possible perception of unfairness.

Damien
==================
halldj at babel.ling.upenn.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 29 12:45:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:45:50 EST
Subject: "Come on down!"
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.074550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The "Come on down!" guy from THE PRICE IS RIGHT tv game show has died.
   People have used the phrase before.  I've been telling women to "Come on 
down to my place, baby" for a long time.
   It remains to be seen if, in the great beyond, he'll "come on down" or 
"come on up" for his use of this catchphrase.
    
  
(NEW YORK TIMES)
Rod Roddy, Announcer on 'Price Is Right,' Dies at 66

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: October 29, 2003

LOS ANGELES, Oct. 28 (AP) — Rod Roddy, the flamboyantly dressed announcer on 
the game show "The Price Is Right" whose booming, jovial voice invited lucky 
audience members to "Come on down!" for nearly 20 years, died here on Monday. 
He was 66.

He had colon and breast cancer said his longtime agent, Don Pitts.

Mr. Roddy's announcing stints included "Love Connection" (1981-85) and "Press 
Your Luck" (1983-86), but "The Price is Right" earned him his greatest fame. 
"The Price is Right" remains one of television's most popular game shows.

Mr. Roddy, whose real name was Robert Ray Roddy, was born on Sept. 18, 1937, 
in Fort Worth, Tex., Mr. Pitts said.

He was a graduate of Texas Christian University and a popular disc jockey in 
Texas when he decided to expand his career in Hollywood, his agent said.

His versatility made him a popular voice-over artist for commercials in Los 
Angeles, Mr. Pitts said. He got his big break in television with the 1977-81 
satire "Soap."

Mr. Roddy taped his last show about two months ago.

He left no immediate survivors.
 


From BDavis at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU  Wed Oct 29 12:56:41 2003
From: BDavis at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (Davis, Boyd)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:56:41 -0500
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.075641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm asking for my UNC-C colleague, Fred Smith, disjecta at cetlink.net, who's
looking at style in authors publishing just prior to WWII:

Is it true that there was in the last century, sometime prior to WWII,
something of an "explosion" of words using the prefix "un-"?  I have found
in the OED SUPPLEMENT such words as the following:  "unpublished" (1934),
"unphysiologi-cal" (1934), "unquote" (1935), "unpornographic" (1938),
"unproble-matic" (1944), etc.

He asks that people direct mail to him, as he is not a member; if the list
discusses this, I'll collect and send it to him. Thanks! Boyd Davis


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 14:13:50 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:13:50 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <33767DC23FBEA24D85477AF57572420512935FCF@email.uncc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.091350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:56 AM -0500 10/29/03, Davis, Boyd wrote:
>I'm asking for my UNC-C colleague, Fred Smith, disjecta at cetlink.net, who's
>looking at style in authors publishing just prior to WWII:
>
>Is it true that there was in the last century, sometime prior to WWII,
>something of an "explosion" of words using the prefix "un-"?  I have found
>in the OED SUPPLEMENT such words as the following:  "unpublished" (1934),
>"unphysiologi-cal" (1934), "unquote" (1935), "unpornographic" (1938),
>"unproble-matic" (1944), etc.

Dear Fred (and list),

I think there are a number of separate issues involved here.  I've
written a couple of papers on un-words recently, in which I try to
distinguish them by category based on whether we're dealing with
un-adjectives, un-verbs (reversatives like "unzip", "undo"), or
un-nouns ("uncola", "unmartini", and the related cases involving
compounds, going back to Lewis Carroll's "unbirthday present").  Un-
has always been quite productive in forming adjectives from other
adjectives, especially morphologically complex ones with a stem in
deverbal -able or participial -ed , -ing, to the point that
dictionaries may not list many un-adjectives separately.  The example
I like to use is "unxeroxable", which would never be listed (indeed,
"xeroxable" probably wouldn't be either) but could readily be
constructed as needed.  Totally productive, no lexical listing.
Hence "unproblematic", "unpublished", "unphysiological", and many
other such forms are being "created" all the time without our being
conscious of this or registering the result as a new word.  This is a
case where derivational morphology approaches inflectional in its
productivity. "Unpornographic" is a bit trickier because generally
and all things being equal (as recognized by Jespersen, Zimmer, and
others) un- prefers semantically positive or neutral stems, thus
yielding evaluatively neutral or negative outputs, whence the
distinctions between unhappy and *unsad, unkind vs. *uncruel, and so
on.  This makes "unpornographic" somewhat marked and perhaps a bit
more remarkable, although I do have cites for e.g. "unsullen".  Your
"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)

  If there's been any explosion of un-words over the post-WWII (and
more specifically since the early 1970's), I'd argue it's been among
un-nouns, often but not always created for jocular and/or commercial
purposes, sparked (it would appear) by the use of "un-cola" in
commercials for 7 Up.  With Beth Levin I've been collecting these
innovations for some time and would be happy to attach a copy of our
list (with contexts of occurrence) to Fred on request, or the papers
I've written on the topic.  But none of the examples you cite above
exemplify un-nouns, so I'm not sure that's what you're really asking
about.

best,
Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 14:31:23 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:31:23 -0500
Subject: oop's
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bbc576e71e5d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.093123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just reread my message and discovered that I seem to have written

>  ...Your
>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category...

I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm
exams.

larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct 29 15:24:36 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:24:36 -0800
Subject: oop's
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.072436.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/29/03 06:31AM >>>
>  ...Your"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category...
>I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
>occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm exams.
>larry

What's a 'dergraduate'?
Fritz


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Wed Oct 29 16:18:45 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:18:45 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031028173620.0235cbd0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.111845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 17:38, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> The word appears very early in colonial and exploration literature, as a
> Spanish word, I believe.  I can't recall the spelling, but it's something
> like "barbecoa"--a guess from long-ago research on American Indian contacts
> with explorers.  But it's definitely a real word.

Absolutely positively. English "barbecue" has been attested since
1609, and is descended from American Spanish "barbacoa,"
meaning "framework for supporting meat over a fire."  We know that
for certain, but Mr. Bowie's informant did not, and apparently
inferred that BBQ was the original form, rather than an abbreviation
that was formed on the basis of the original "barbecue."  Mr. Bowie
took that as a sort of "folk etymology," though I think what he
meant by that was "a word history inferred by a speaker unaware of
the linguistic facts," rather than what a  lexicographer understands
by folk etymology, which is a sort of respelling or transliteration of
a word whose elements are not semantically transparent to a
speaker into elements that are transparent and familiar but are
totally irrelevant to the etymology of the word as originally formed:
e.g., the cockroach (cock = "a bird," roach = "a fish") for
cucaracha "a bug."  Maybe what Mr. Bowie meant to suggest was
that his informant's reinterpretation of the abbreviation BBQ as a
word effectively transformed it into one, in the same way that a folk
etymology, as traditionally understood, results in the creation of a
"real word" despite the erroneous historical assumptions that led to
its creation.  The difference here, though, is that BBQ had already
existed as an abbreviation rather than having been created from
whole cloth; it's simply been reinterpreted as something other than
what it originally was.  But, more to the point, I'm not sure it can
really be said to constitute a new word if it's being pronounced
exactly like "barbecue."  In my mind, Mr. Bowie's informants are
actually using the word "barbecue" and incorrectly assuming an
identity (rather than a symbolic association) between it and "BBQ."
In other words, they're mentally misspelling the word.

But I suppose product-oriented lexicographers are more inclined to
make black-and-white distinctions than process-oriented linguists
are. It would be interesting to hear how others of you (besides Mr.
Bowie) see this situation.

Joanne

Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Oct 29 16:30:56 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:30:56 -0400
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bbc576e71e5d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.123056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry Horn writes:
>  Your
>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
~~~~~~~~~
On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
A. Murie


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 19:25:11 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:11 -0500
Subject: oop's
In-Reply-To: <sf9f6b38.010@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.142511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/29/03 06:31AM >>>
>>   ...Your"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>describe it's category...
>>I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
>>occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm exams.
>>larry
>
>What's a 'dergraduate'?
>Fritz

 From the German obviously--
Der graduate   vs.    Undergraduate

L


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 19:33:38 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:33:38 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bbc599d6414f@[12.107.146.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.143338.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:30 PM -0400 10/29/03, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry Horn writes:
>>   Your
>>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>>"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>>(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
>~~~~~~~~~
>On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
>do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
>attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)

that i have.

I don't think of "unquote" as a verb either, though, since I can't
use it in contexts like "I unquoted his remarks" but only as in the
context above.  In one of the papers of mine that I mentioned, I
briefly discuss "unitalics" and "unbold", which are somewhat
analogous to "unquote" in serving as free-standing metalinguistic
commands.  I think there is a derivative use of "unbold" and
"unquote" as verbs (although I'm not sure how that would work with
"unitalics"):  I told the copy-editor to unbold and unquote that
passage.  (i.e. to remove the boldface and the quote marks)   Again,
though, that's different from the "quote-unquote-linguist" above.



Larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct 29 20:26:30 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:26:30 -0800
Subject: oop's
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.122630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>What's a 'dergraduate'?
>Fritz

 >From the German obviously--
>Der graduate   vs.    Undergraduate

Oh yes, of course


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct 29 20:50:21 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:50:21 -0500
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.155021.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I admit.  But nobody's perfect.)

There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
Subject: Re: UN-words

> Larry Horn writes:
> >  Your
> >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
> >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
> >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
> >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
> ~~~~~~~~~
> On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
> equivalent to
> do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
> attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
> A. Murie
>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Wed Oct 29 21:52:48 2003
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:52:48 -0600
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.155248.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's how we used to do/say it in copy editing and publishing: quote-endquote.

SOD



George Thompson wrote:

> I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I admit.  But nobody's perfect.)
>
> There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
> Subject: Re: UN-words
>
> > Larry Horn writes:
> > >  Your
> > >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
> > >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
> > >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
> > >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
> > ~~~~~~~~~
> > On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
> > equivalent to
> > do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
> > attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
> > A. Murie
> >


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Oct 29 23:19:09 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:19:09 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bbc599d6414f@[12.107.146.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.181909.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, sagehen wrote:

#On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
#do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.

Quote/unquote are metawords. They don't operate within the grammar of
the sentence, but ON it. You can insert them anywhere at all, as long as
you keep them balanced, because a quotation can begin or end anywhere at
all.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 03:41:59 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:41:59 EST
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public Library)
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.224159.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   We'll start with the "miracles."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MIRACLES

   I never posted this.  It's the first mention of my work on a local tv
newscast.  Of course, my name isn't mentioned with my work, and I got no money,
and it's twelve years too late, but hey, that still counts as a miracle in New
York and my life.

http://www.nbc4.com/answerstoaskliz2003/2166421/detail.html
NYC Big Apple and New Orleans Big Easy, House Appraisal, Rebates: 4/29/03

Q: I would like to know why New York City is called the Big Apple and why New
Orleans is called the Big Easy? I've been wondering these things for ages.

A: WE WENT TO SEVERAL SOURCES TO GET YOUR ANSWER. THE NEW YORK CITY "BIG
APPLE" REFERENCE IS ATTRIBUTED TO NEW YORK CITY MORNING TELEGRAPH REPORTER JOHN J.
FITZGERALD.

HE APPARENTLY HEARD THE EXPRESSION BEING USED BY AFRICAN AMERICAN STABLE
HANDS IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1921. THEY CALLED NEW YORK "THE BIG APPLE" MEANING "THE
BIG TIME."

THE NICKNAME WASN'T WIDELY USED UNTIL A 1971 WHEN IT BECAME PART OF A NEW
YORK CONVENTION AND VISITORS BUREAU PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN.

AS FOR NEW ORLEANS, THE TERM COMES FROM A TURN OF THE CENTURY JAZZ CLUB
CALLED THE "BIG EASY HALL." IN 1970 POLICE REPORTER JAMES CANOPY WROTE A
NEW-ORELEANS BASED CRIME NOVEL CALLED "THE BIG EASY." AND MUCH OF THE CREDIT GOES TO
TIMES-PICAYUNE COLUMNIST BETTY GUILLAUD WHO POPULARIZED THE PHRASE IN THE 1970'S.



   Here's another without money or credit:

THE NEW YORK CABBIE COOKBOOK
by Mary Ellen WInston and Holly Garrison
Philadelphia: Running Press Book Publishers
2003

Pg. 44:  BIG APPLE BITE:
   It's long been believed that New York was nicknamed "the Big Apple" by
jazz musicians who regarded a gig in Harlem to be a sign that they had made it.
It turns out that it had actually first appeared in the 1920s when reporter
John Fitzgerald, who reported on horse races for the _Morning Telegraph_,
referred to the New York racetrack.  Apparently, stable hands in New Orleans called
a trip to a New York racetrack the "Big Apple"--or sweet reward--for any
talented thoroughbred.  The term passed into popular uswage long after the
racetrack disappeared.


   Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.  These
are the "miracles," mind you:

THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
by James Trager
New York: HarperResource
2003

Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a cartoon
by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a dachshund
inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students at Yale dorms
since 1894.

Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity campaign
organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years ago by _Morning
Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New Orleans
by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of a
popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to mean
New York City.

   There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.  But in
these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog" work
and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work is
either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch, these are miracles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NON-MIRACLES

   I have kept the Chicago Public Library informed of all early citations of
"the WIndy City."  No one has written back with anything at all, not even a
"thank you." Ever.   It was in May that I told the CPL to change its web site.
I was told the CPL is thinking about it.
   I told the CPL again.  Yet again, they're still "thinking."
   This is a web site.  This is a few lines of computer text that will take
about a minute or two to correct.  But it's Barry Popik--let's not do him any
favors.

Subj:   Response from CPL E-Mail Reference Team
Date:   10/29/2003 6:15:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:refdesk at chipublib.org">refdesk at chipublib.org</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear Mr. Popik:

We are contacting you in reply to your E-Mail reference question.

Your question was:
Why do you still list the "Windy City" 1893 World's Fair myth?  As you
know, I have worked very, very hard, and have traced "Windy City" to 1876.

Answer:
Thank you for your thoughts re 'Windy City' on our web site.  We are
considering your suggestion and are looking into the matter.

Source:


We hope this information is useful and you will use CPL E-Mail Reference
in the future.

CPL E-Mail Reference Team


   We hope this information is useful?  How can that be useful??  They said
this four months ago!
   What other professional has to go through such misery to give away his or
her work for free?

   The American Antiquarian Society (Worcester, Massachusetts) didn't have
the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER or much of the CHICAGO TIMES, but it had one day of the
latter that was of interest.  I'll post that now.

   8 May 1876, CHICAGO TIMES, pg. 4, col. 5:
_THE WILD WIND._
_Which Tore Its Way Through_
   _Chicago with Terrible Havoc_
   _on Saturday._
(...)
_The Wind's Work._
   A tornado, momentary in duration but terrible in its strength, passed over
this city on last Saturday evening at 5 o'clock.

(The CINCINNNATI ENQUIRER would use "THAT WINDY CITY" on May 9th--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT: PARKING TICKETS  (non-miracles)

   The state surcharge, now $5 on every parking ticket, it going up to $15 in
two weeks.  To $15, even on a $20 meter ticket.  Plus $60 of penalties after
about 90 days.  This is worse than cigarette taxes.  There's been no publicity
about it.  The state surcharge money in the past has gone to Buffalo!
   I'll be doing parking tickets again tomorrow until 8 p.m., and then I have
more parking tickets starting at 8:30 a.m. on Friday.  I've been almost full
time this summer.
   There's a new computer system that was installed this week, so judges are
now clerks.  The chief judge and other bigs came to the Bronx to inspect the
new system.  I felt like asking a few questions:

   See this?  There are bars on the windows!  Why are there bars on the
windows?  Is this the goddamn 1911 Triangle factory?  And why do I work ten hours
straight in a room with no window at all and no air?
   There was a blackout on a Thursday/Friday.  That was over two months ago.
Why aren't we paid?
   Why did we miss another week of pay?
   Why are we paid significantly less (when we are paid) than judges at any
other city agency?  It used to be the same.
   Why was my best friend fired?  Why isn't anyone told?  Is it true that
he's suing the city for age discrimination?  Do you realize that I now work every
day in his room without air?
   Do you know that I'm the famous Barry Popik?  I once solved "the Big
Apple."  It's brought me great riches and respect...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 05:01:12 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:01:12 -0500
Subject: Dulce de Leche
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.000112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 �  "Dulce de Leche" is not in the OED. � Not once, anywhere. � There are 37,100 Google hits. �
 �  I've been aware of the Haagen-Daz product for some time:
 �
http://www.haagen-dazs.com/segpro.do?productId=73
Dulce De Leche
 �  ICE CREAM �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
Inspired by Latin America’s treasured dessert, our Dulce de Leche ice cream is a delicious combination of caramel and sweet cream, swirled with ribbons of golden caramel. � Häagen-Dazs transforms a Latin classic into a sweetly romantic and richly satisfying ice cream.
 �
 �  There are 13 trademarks:
 �
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 THE ORIGINAL DULCE DE LECHE ICE CREAM
 Translations
The English translation of "DULCHE DE LECHE" is "SWEET FROM MILK".
 Goods and Services
IC � 030. � US 046. � G & S: Ice cream
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
78160277
 Filing Date
September 3, 2002
 Current Filing Basis
1B
 Original Filing Basis
1B
 Owner
(APPLICANT) Coco Gelato, Corp. CORPORATION FLORIDA 163 NE 24 Street Miami FLORIDA 33137
 Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "DULCHE DE LECHE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE
 �
 �  Today's article in the NEW YORK SUN, 29 October 2003, pg. 17, col. 1, convinces me it has to be entered in the OED:
 �
_Argentinian Gold: � Dulce de Leche_
By PAUL LUKAS
 �  The dinner, at an Argentinian restaurant, had been great, and the dessert was even better: a fondue featuring little biscuits and cookies and a saucepan of the wonderful caramel sauce known as _dulce de leche_.
 �  "God, I love this stuff," said my friend Sarah, dipping another cookie into the saucepan. � "But what is _dulce de leche_ anyway?"
 �  "Well, it translates to 'sweet milk,'" I said, feeling all multiculural and factoid-handy.
 �  "Yeah," she said, "but what _is_ it? � How do they make it? � Like, do they just melt a bunch of Kraft caramels or what?"
 �  These are good questions, and timely ones too, because _dulce de leche_, once consigned to the ethnic fringe, has acquired much more of a mainstream profile in recent years. � Many coffee bars now offer _dulce de leche_-flavored java, plus there's _dulce de leche_ Haagen-Dazs, and for a while last year the Mars candy folks were even test-marketing _dulce de leche_ M&M's. � Not bad for something that was once found exclusively in SOuth American restaurants,
 �  Although _dulce de leche_ has a complex, almost nutty flavor, it's remarkably simple stuff: just milk, sugar, and sodium bicarbonate (commonly known as baking soda), which serves as an emulsifier. � It's native to Argentina, where it's essentially the national dessert, poured over ice cream, pastries, fruit, and just about anything else that doesn't move, and also enjoyed straight out of the jar. � Annual per-capita consumption in Argentina is in the 10-pound range (think about that--the mind fairly boggles), a fitgure boosted by the fact that _dulce de leche_ is even fed to Argentinian babies because of its high calcium content. � Got milk, indeed.
 �  The standard story, perhaps coincidental, is that _dulce de leche_ was invented by accident in 1829, (Col. 2--ed.) when a servant was preparing _techada_ (boiled milk and sugar) for an Argentinian general and mistakenly left the pot unattended over the fire. � The general later found the concoction, which had turned brown, gooey, and delicious, dipped a baguette into it, and _dulce de leche_ was born. � Although the preparation soon spread to other South American countries and to Europe, the Argentinian rendition is reputedly still the best. � Food scientists will tell you this because Argentinian cows graze in the vast prairies known as the pampas, whose grasslands produce high-quality milk rich in conjugated linoleic acid and omega-3 fatty acids; others say Argentinians just know how to make _dulce de leche_, just as New Yorkers know how to make pizza.
(...)
 �
 �
(JSTOR)
Eunice Joiner Gates
Hispanic Review, Vol. 16, No. 1. (Jan., 1948), pp. 33-49.
Pg. 41: � Even the favorite gaucho delicacy, the _dulce de alfajor_, composed of two superimposed pastry rounds with a filling of _dulce de leche_, appears as an image for describing the closeness of riders and steers at a round-up:...
 �
 �
(PROQUEST) �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � Some Argentine Desserts
 �  �  �  �  �  �  � Christian Science Monitor � (1908-Current file). �  �  �  Boston, Mass.: Jan 14, 1930. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. 10 (1 page) :
 �  �  � _Dulce de Leche_
 �  This sweet is made of cream and milk boiled with sugar until it forms a thick paste. � It can be used either as a filling for cakes, biscuits, alfajores, etc., or else eaten instead of jam on bread and butter. � CHildren love it. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � Food Is Both Plentiful And Cheap in Argentina
 �  �  �  Special to The Christian Science Monitor. �  �  �  Christian Science Monitor � (1908-Current file). �  �  �  Boston, Mass.: Aug 28, 1944. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. 11 (1 page) �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � Sweet and smooth: Dulce de leche delights
 �  �  �  �  �  �  � Houston Chronicle. �  �  �  Houston, Tex.: May 14, 2003. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. 4 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
HYDE PARK, N.Y. - Dulce de leche, translated as "milk jam," is a soft caramel confection that's very popular throughout Mexico, Central and South America.

 �  It's a relative newcomer to the United States' taste buds, but it is quickly growing in popularity. Swirled into ice creams and yogurt blends, and used as a filling in prepared frozen dessert items, dulce de leche is becoming a fast favorite as a dessert ingredient.

 �  Traditional dulce de leche is a simple combination of whole milk and sugar, usually flavored with cinnamon, vanilla or lemon - slight variations often according to local tradition.

 �  The milk and sugar are combined over low heat and cooked slowly. At this temperature, it is the milk solids that caramelize, and which provide the distinct flavor and color.

 �  The mixture is cooked until it reduces to about one-quarter of its original volume. The result is a sweet, smooth sauce, which is easy to spread when chilled.

 �  Variations of dulce de leche include products such as cajeta, which is made with goat milk or a combination of goat and cow milk. Stronger in flavor than dulce de leche, cajeta is also popular in Mexico and Argentina.

 �  Homemade dulce de leche is traditionally used as a filling for cakes, to line pie shells later filled with sweet custard, and as a topping for fresh fruit.

 �  "Smooth, sweet and creamy, dulce de leche and cajeta are delicacies," says Joseba Encabo, assistant professor in culinary arts at the Culinary Institute of America. She adds that you can simply spread the sweet treat on a slice of fresh bread, or put a spoonful in your mouth before your morning coffee, or to savor as a snack.

 �  The following dulce de leche recipe is made in the traditional manner, beginning with whole milk and sugar. Although the cooking time is about two hours, this dulce de leche virtually cooks itself, requiring only minimal attention.

 �  The result is well worth the lengthy cooking time. In fact, dulce de leche is so tempting you may find it hard to resist a spoonful straight from the pan.

 �  This recipe and many other desserts are explained and illustrated in the Culinary Institute of America's forthcoming Baking and Pastry, Mastering the Art and Craft cookbook, scheduled for publication early in 2004.
 �
 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
 �  �  � Dulce de Leche Takes A Spot in Vocabulary And Pantries of U.S.
 �  �  �  By Shelly Branch. �  �  �  Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). �  �  �  New York, N.Y.: Oct 12, 2001. �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  p. B.8 �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �  �
As distracted Americans increasingly reach for comforting, indulgent foods, a popular dessert from Argentina, called dulce de leche, is commanding a place in the U.S.'s pantries and vocabulary.

 �  Jellies and confections maker J.M. Smucker Co., based in Orrville, Ohio, sells two varieties of dulce de leche caramel toppings. Mars Inc. recently introduced dulce de leche M&M's. Even Groupe Danone's U.S. Dannon unit has whipped up a dulce de leche yogurt as part of its La Creme dessert line.

 �  The ubiquity of the caramel treat, whose name translates into "sweet of milk," signals a subtle shift in the food industry.

 �  Over the years, food companies have strained to win over various ethnic groups, particularly consumers of Hispanic origin. Most efforts centered on special ads, as well as ethnic recipes -- for BBQ beef fajitas, for example -- that call for mainstream ingredients, such as Kraft Foods Inc.'s Original Barbecue sauce.

 �  Rarely, however, do major food companies in the U.S. import ideas from non-English-speaking cultures and commit to marketing them broadly. "Mainstream America tends to be very insular in its food tastes," notes Lynn Dornblazer, editorial director of Mintel's Global New Products Database. One notable exception: salsa, the Mexican staple.

 �  But, back to dulce de leche. Before 1998, there were virtually no mass-marketed dulce de leche products in the U.S. But in the past three years, according to Mintel's of Chicago, a total of 36 products -- ranging from coffee to toppings, ice creams, yogurts and cosmetics -- have been launched for broad distribution.

 �  Cosmetics company Coty Inc. rolled out a dulce de leche-inspired scent in 1999, and France's L'Oreal SA followed up in the U.S. with a lip gloss under the dulce de leche name. And Mars's dulce de leche M&M is its first new variety of the candy since 1999.

 �  Much of the credit for dulce de leche's popularity in the U.S. rests with Haagen-Dazs. Back in 1997, executives at Diageo PLC's Pillsbury unit were preparing to expand their scoop shops to Argentina. A potential franchisee noted that about 30% of that country's ice-cream sales were of the dulce de leche flavor. The ice-cream maker didn't have one.

 �  "Haagen-Dazs decided it needed a dulce de leche flavor in order to be a credible business in Argentina," says Stephen Moss, vice president of marketing for the brand. Haagen-Dazs ice cream is now sold in the U.S. by Ice Cream Partners USA, a joint venture between Nestle SA and Pillsbury.

 �  Haagen-Dazs brought dulce de leche to the U.S. in 1998. While most Americans could relate to plain old caramel, marketers feared the term dulce de leche might be lost in translation.

 �  Eventually, the company decided that the authentic term would signal something new to consumers, who were already familiar with Haagen-Dazs's other caramel flavors.

 �  "To help out the Anglo market, we put the word caramel underneath dulce de leche on the package," recalls Mr. Moss.

 �  Although the first pints were available only in heavily Hispanic areas, dulce de leche was soon outselling other Haagen-Dazs products launched nationwide at the same time.

 �  Today, the caramel-laced ice cream is Haagen-Dazs's sixth-best-selling flavor in the U.S. out of 34 varieties.

 �  Imitators quickly followed, including dulce de leche ice-cream versions from Good Humor-Breyers Ice Cream Co. and Starbucks Corp. Smucker, a major player in spreads and dessert toppings, jumped in with its first dulce de leche spread in 1999 and recently rolled out a dulce ice-cream topping.
 �
 �
(I'd normally check out dozens of books about Argentina, but I'm a full-time parking ticket judge now--ed.)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 30 08:58:36 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:58:36 -0800
Subject: Dulce de Leche
In-Reply-To: <200310292129.1af5nl2jQ3NZFkN0@swallow>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.005836.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dulce De Leche
>  ¬  ICE CREAM ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬  ¬
>Inspired by Latin America’Äôs treasured dessert, our Dulce de Leche
>ice cream is a delicious combination of caramel and sweet cream,
>swirled with ribbons of golden caramel. ¬ Hˆ§agen-Dazs transforms a
>Latin classic into a sweetly romantic and richly satisfying ice
>cream.

Just on a personal note, I got some of the Haagen-Dazs Dulce de Leche
ice cream, having heard of it for quite some time.  I thought it was
completely tasteless.  It was a lovely texture, and cold and creamy,
but had no taste.  Your mouth knew it had ice cream in it, but that
was about it.  Am I alone in this?

Rima


From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 11:10:35 2003
From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:10:35 EST
Subject: pre-hot dog
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.061035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
    www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?

Lois Nathan


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 11:29:33 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:29:33 -0400
Subject: quote-unquote
In-Reply-To: <3FA036B0.92313CC0@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.072933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In two places (1994, Content-oriented discourse analysis and folk
linguistics. Language Sciences 16,2:285-330 and 1993, The uses of
folk linguistics. International Journal of Applied Linguistics
3,2:181-259) I have written about the "softener" (rather than
contradictory or synonym for "so-called") use of "quote-unquote."
It's a very interesting discourse ploy that could use some more work.
The examples I found were used in connection with the speaker's
sensitivity to references to social class.

dInIs


>That's how we used to do/say it in copy editing and publishing:
>quote-endquote.
>
>SOD
>
>
>
>George Thompson wrote:
>
>>  I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our
>>president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who
>>suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it
>>immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words
>>being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism
>>here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to
>>read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual
>>quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I
>>admit.  But nobody's perfect.)
>>
>>  There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by
>>wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.
>>
>>  GAT
>>
>>  George A. Thompson
>>  Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>>Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>  Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
>>  Subject: Re: UN-words
>>
>>  > Larry Horn writes:
>>  > >  Your
>>  > >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>  > >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>>  > >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>>  > >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
>>  > ~~~~~~~~~
>>  > On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
>>  > equivalent to
>>  > do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
>>  > attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
>>  > A. Murie
>>  >

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 11:45:14 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:45:14 -0400
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <11c.277a1897.2cd24bab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.074514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
delete finger is growing weary.

Hopefully,

dInIs



Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?

Lois Nathan

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 12:53:02 2003
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:53:02 -0500
Subject: winfall
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.075302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sub-head in today's Indianapolis Star, front page, above the fold:
 
$95.4 million jackpot is biggest individual winfall in state history.
 
Google shows 9320 hits for "winfall", many of which are lottery-related.  It shows 238,000 hits for "windfall".  Of the first 100, only one is lottery related, and that one occurs in The Guardian.  Many uses are related to unexpected money from other sources, though.
 
Herb
 


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:50:31 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:50:31 -0600
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.075031.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_ and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language variation. 
    For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the ads-l messages.
I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
 
Al;l good wishes.
Gerald Cohen
 
P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to it).

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: a small plea
	
	

	In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
	having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
	exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
	bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
	could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
	delete finger is growing weary.
	
	Hopefully,
	
	dInIs
	
	
	
	Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
	     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
	ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
	sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
	
	Lois Nathan
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:55:10 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:55:10 -0500
Subject: Dulce de Leche
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.085510.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:01 AM 10/30/2003, you wrote:
>Â  "Dulce de Leche" is not in the OED. Â Not once, anywhere. Â There are
>37,100 Google hits. Â
>  Â  I've been aware of the Haagen-Daz product for some time:
>  Â

I'm sure this isn't the earliest English citation, but Frank Loesser used
it in his musical 'Guys and Dolls' (1950), in a delightful scene where
Nathan Detroit takes Sarah (a teetotaling Salvation Army type) to Havana
and introduces her to the drink ('it's milk, with Bacardi, a sort of native
flavoring')  Sarah then observes that with a taste this good, there would
be no problem getting children to drink their milk.

Geoff


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:27:07 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:27:07 -0400
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE9B@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.092707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.

dInIs

>The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
>the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
>Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
>others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
>and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
>good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
>variation.
>     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
>work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
>for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
>ads-l messages.
>I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
>
>Al;l good wishes.
>Gerald Cohen
>
>P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
>now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
>it).
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Cc:
>       Subject: Re: a small plea
>
>
>
>       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
>       having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
>       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
>       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
>       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
>       delete finger is growing weary.
>
>       Hopefully,
>
>       dInIs
>
>
>
>       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
>            www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up
>quiz where they
>       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
>it was "dachshund
>       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
>
>       Lois Nathan
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 15:21:39 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:21:39 -0500
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
 Library)
In-Reply-To: <ea.40930eee.2cd1e287@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.102139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:41 PM -0500 10/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.  These
>are the "miracles," mind you:
>
>THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
>by James Trager
>New York: HarperResource
>2003
>
>Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a cartoon
>by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a dachshund
>inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
>reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students
>at Yale dorms
>since 1894.
>
>Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity campaign
>organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
>Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years
>ago by _Morning
>Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New Orleans
>by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of a
>popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to mean
>New York City.
>
>    There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.  But in
>these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog" work
>and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work is
>either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
>Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch,
>these are miracles.
>
Other minor errors in these reports:  (i) "Fitz Gerald" consistently
spelled "Fitzgerald"; (ii) use of the present perfect in Trager's
first paragraph falsely implying that those legendary Yale food
wagons have been continuously purveying hot dogs for over a hundred
years up to this afternoon.  Unfortunately, they were closed down
some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 16:24:50 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:24:50 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <004901c39b6a$de8fa3a0$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.112450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
she returns the call.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:27:47 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:27:47 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.112747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:24:50AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
> City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
> the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
> message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
> site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
> that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
> she returns the call.

Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.

Jesse
OED


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:33:50 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:33:50 EST
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.113350.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated >  Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:11 -0500,  Laurence Horn <
> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> responds to FRITZ JUENGLING <
> juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
>
>
> >
> >What's a 'dergraduate'?
> >Fritz
>
> From the German obviously--
> Der graduate   vs.   Undergraduate

More exactly, "der Graduate" is someone who has left college with a
bachelor's degree.  Der Undergraduate therefore is someone who has completed college
and has subsequently gotten married.

An amusing use of "un-":  the late science fiction writer Poul Anderson wrote
a novella entitled "UN-man" (also used as the title of a book containing
several Anderson stories).  The title character is
   1) a genetically altered human
   2) a Schwartzeneggeresque secret agent for the United Nations.

Well-written office software offers various "UNDO" options, such as "unbold",
"undelete", etc.  (One can imagine an "unetc" which trims items off a list.)
I have always considered "undelete" to be an unfelicitous name for a most
felicitious operation.

A word processor for which I have fond memories was Word-11 (on the DEC
PDP-11 minicomputer).  One key on the keyboard was designated as the "Gold key"
(and on our keyboards had a piece of gold foil taped on it).  Pressing the gold
key before a function key reversed the action of the function key, e.g. if you
pressed the gold key before the boldfacing key you removed rather than adding
boldface.  The gold key was most welcome since Word-11's
puppy-dog-user-friendliness made it quite easy to convert half your document to boldface (or
italics or whatever).  This blessed keystroke combination was known as "gold bold".

          - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:43:46 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:43:46 EST
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.114346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 1980's the proprietor of a barbeque establishment sued his local
phone company to have them place the letter "Q" on the dials/keypads of their
telephones so that he could have a phone number that would spell out the
title of his main sales item.  I don't know what became of the suit.  The news
article I read quoted the phone company's attorney as commenting on the
impossible logistics of the plaintiff's request.  Apparently it did not occur to the
phone company that there is no "q" in "barbecue".

          - James A. Landau

PS.  The following is a true story; I have seen the listing in question.

Also circa 1980 a local phone company (I believe it was Indiana Bell), in
order to make sure that their customers knew how to reach them, listed themselves
in their own phone directory under six different names, including "Telephone
Company", "Phone Company", and---da duh---"Fone Company".


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 20:21:51 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:51 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <20031030162747.GA9705@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.152151.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.

Thanks, Jesse.  Because of your ultra-prestigious title, you might
actually be the best one to convince them.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Oct 30 21:03:02 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:03:02 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.160302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in 1997, Anne Widdecombe said of Michael Howard, former Home Affairs
minister, that Howard had, "something of the night" about him. The quote
has been applied to him as "Mr. Something-of-the-Night" and resurfaced
today in the IHT. Most of the hits I come across refer to this comment. But
there are others, mostly in British publications.

"She had a chilling, thrilling voice, with more than something of the night
about it, but it was the sanest presence in the piece."  The Guardian, Oct.
23, 2003 page 20.

"But [Mick] Jagger has still managed to keep something of the night about
him." The Guardian, Jul. 29, 2003. page 22.

"There's something of the night about Iraq, something dark and mysterious
and other-worldly, where different logic takes hold, particularly in
periods where war seems possible, even inevitable." CBS, Sept. 22, 2002
(Mark Phillips, although not British, has been stationed at the CBS London
bureau forever.)

And this curious one, if this phrase means what I think it means.

"It may be doubted whether a more variegated life and more complex and
brilliant characters would not have been beyond [Nathaniel] Hawthorne's
power of truthful representation. He has in very fact something of the
night about his disposition, and whatever he prevailingly portrays has
either to have in its nature a suggestion of the discoloured temperateness
of night, or else to be thinned away and modulated through his imagination
until it has lost the grossness and actuality of fact and grown tenuous and
pallid." Studies and Appreciations, Lewis E. Gates, 1900.

How's that for a 100 year gap? I looked in the OED, Googled it, looked in
Cassell's, Picturesque Expressions, and Partridge, Questia and Proquest,
and the ADS archives, and I'll continue to look in this library of his, but
have yet to find a written definition of it.

So is it metaphoric for sinister and dark? Evil, of sorts. OR just
something "otherworldly." Quirky and Gothic? What exactly does it mean? And
is it used outside of the UK?
Where did it come from?


Thanks again for any help,


Katy


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Oct 30 21:58:39 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:58:39 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.165839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Here's an earlier, more literal use, c. 1886 (or possibly a year or two earlier):

        >>December 30, 1850.--The relation of thought to action filled my mind on
waking, and I found myself carried toward a bizarre formula, which seems
to have something of the night still clinging about it: _Action is but
coarsened thought_; thought become concrete, obscure, and unconscious.<<

        This is from Amiel's Journal (a translation of Journal Intime), by Henri Frederic Amiel, translated by Mary A. (Mrs. Humphrey) Ward (Project Gutenberg text), ftp://sailor.gutenberg.org/pub/gutenberg/etext05/8ajrn10.txt.  The translation does not seem to be dated, but cannot be earlier than 1882 (when the Journal Intime was first published) or later than 1886 (when the passage in question was quoted in an article in The Guardian).

John Baker


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct 30 23:27:06 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:27:06 -0600
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <20031030162747.GA9705@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.172706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And if you think a local voice would help, count me in as well.

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com

At 11:27 AM -0500 10/30/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:24:50AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>  In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
>>  City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
>>  the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
>>  message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
>>  site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
>>  that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
>>  she returns the call.
>
>Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.
>
>Jesse
>OED


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 00:54:55 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:54:55 -0500
Subject: winfall
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL02Jn9ofaqTn9S0002afb7@exmail02.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.195455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like "winfall" has been removed from the online version of the story!

-Mai

> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <hstahlke at BSU.EDU>
>
> Sub-head in today's Indianapolis Star, front page, above the fold:
> =20
> $95.4 million jackpot is biggest individual winfall in state history.
> =20
> Google shows 9320 hits for "winfall", many of which are lottery-related. =
> It shows 238,000 hits for "windfall".  Of the first 100, only one is =
> lottery related, and that one occurs in The Guardian.  Many uses are =
> related to unexpected money from other sources, though.
> =20
> Herb
> =20
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 02:40:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:40:14 -0500
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.214014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would think that broadening the range would require more people posting
more messages about language variations in America.   The board is there for
the posting.  But the posts just don't seem to come very frequently.  Any
ideas on how to make that happen?

I apologize to people on this board who have little interest in antedatings.
I'm a big offender.  I'll try to do better.  But I assume that Jesse
Sheidlower, as a co-owner of the list, has a small interest in people
working for free to help make the OED(and M-W) be all that it can be.  If
Jesse would prefer we post directly to OED, I'd be fine with that.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: a small plea


> I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.
>
> dInIs
>
> >The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
> >the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
> >Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
> >others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
> >and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
> >good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
> >variation.
> >     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
> >work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
> >for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
> >ads-l messages.
> >I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
> >
> >Al;l good wishes.
> >Gerald Cohen
> >
> >P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
> >now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
> >it).
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
> >       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
> >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >       Cc:
> >       Subject: Re: a small plea
> >
> >
> >
> >       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
> >       having to do with language variation in the Americas and not
almost
> >       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
> >       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on
such,
> >       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but
my
> >       delete finger is growing weary.
> >
> >       Hopefully,
> >
> >       dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> >       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
> >            www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up
> >quiz where they
> >       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
> >it was "dachshund
> >       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
> >
> >       Lois Nathan
> >
> >       --
> >       Dennis R. Preston
> >       University Distinguished Professor
> >       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >             Asian & African Languages
> >       Michigan State University
> >       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >       phone: (517) 432-3099
> >
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 04:21:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:21:14 -0500
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
 Library)
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.232114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry said <Unfortunately, they were closed down
some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.>

And you know that the food the  Moghul wagons sell contains no DOG  how?
Done an analysis lately?

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
Library)


> At 10:41 PM -0500 10/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >    Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.
These
> >are the "miracles," mind you:
> >
> >THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
> >by James Trager
> >New York: HarperResource
> >2003
> >
> >Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a
cartoon
> >by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a
dachshund
> >inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
> >reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students
> >at Yale dorms
> >since 1894.
> >
> >Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity
campaign
> >organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
> >Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years
> >ago by _Morning
> >Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New
Orleans
> >by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of
a
> >popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to
mean
> >New York City.
> >
> >    There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.
But in
> >these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog"
work
> >and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work
is
> >either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
> >Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch,
> >these are miracles.
> >
> Other minor errors in these reports:  (i) "Fitz Gerald" consistently
> spelled "Fitzgerald"; (ii) use of the present perfect in Trager's
> first paragraph falsely implying that those legendary Yale food
> wagons have been continuously purveying hot dogs for over a hundred
> years up to this afternoon.  Unfortunately, they were closed down
> some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
> non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.
>
> Larry
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Oct 31 04:24:31 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:24:31 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <004c01c39f58$50a78480$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.232431.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 09:40:14PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> I would think that broadening the range would require more people posting
> more messages about language variations in America.   The board is there for
> the posting.  But the posts just don't seem to come very frequently.  Any
> ideas on how to make that happen?
>
> I apologize to people on this board who have little interest in antedatings.
> I'm a big offender.  I'll try to do better.  But I assume that Jesse
> Sheidlower, as a co-owner of the list, has a small interest in people
> working for free to help make the OED(and M-W) be all that it can be.  If
> Jesse would prefer we post directly to OED, I'd be fine with that.

My co-ownership takes the form only of my willingness to
handle certain administrative duties; it gives me no say (or,
rather, no more say than anyone else) about what is transacted
on the list. I'd be happy to see a broader discussion about
other aspects of things-in-which-the-ADS-has-an-interest-in.

Personally, I don't think that we should ignore antedatings,
or shunt them to private channels.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 31 04:44:51 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:44:51 -0600
Subject: pre-hot dog
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.224451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:10 AM -0500 10/30/03, Lois Nathan wrote:
>Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
>     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
>ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
>sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?


The claim that "dachshund sausage" was a pre-hot dog term is incorrect.
See the ads-l archives for Barry Popik's first message of Sept. 22, 2003.
It's clear from Barry's search of "dachshund" and "sausage" that the
mental connection of these two terms came only AFTER the term "hot
dog" arose. The term arose based on the popular belief that dog meat
turned up in sausages at least occasionally, not from the idea that
the sausage looks like a dachshund.
Prior to "hot dog," the term was simply "(hot) sausage/frankfurter."

   The term "hot dog" arose in Yale college-slang (1894 or 1895) and
spread quickly to other colleges. TAD's two earliest "hot dog"
cartoons didn't come until 1906 and pertained to a six-day bike race
in Madison Square Garden, NOT to the Polo Grounds as is frequently
written. TAD's alleged Polo Grounds cartoon, which supposedly
launched the term "hot dog," never existed.

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 31 05:04:19 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:04:19 -0600
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.230419.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:24 PM -0500 10/30/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>Personally, I don't think that we should ignore antedatings,
>or shunt them to private channels.

    Thanks, Jesse. The antedatings provide important raw material for
the preparation of articles on etymology as well as valuable
information for lexicographers and insight for the general educated
public.  Researchers like Fred Shapiro deserve an expression of
gratitude for their tireless ferreting out of new information. If we
step back and look at the totality of his contributions (and those of
others like Douglas Wilson and Sam Clements), the reaction will
likely be one of awe.

    And there's no reason why anyone else who has some insight to
share (or question to ask or some other matter of interest) can't
send that along too.
By all means, let's encourage members to share their thoughts with
us, with everyone welcome to do so.

Gerald Cohen


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Oct 31 08:28:52 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:28:52 -0000
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.082852.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> So is it metaphoric for sinister and dark? Evil, of sorts. OR just
> something "otherworldly." Quirky and Gothic? What exactly does it mean?
And
> is it used outside of the UK?

Widdecombe, a singularly repellent figure in herself, was presumed to have
conjured the phrase up to decry her then boss, the even more odious Howard.
As you suggest, the image was of his being 'sinister and dark' (and he
did/does boast a suitably Dracula-like widow's peak, and cartoonists - see
for instance Steve Bell in yesterday's Guardian - have since used the phrase
to depict him as the Count). But otherwordly, quirky and Gothic - no way.
Just one more right-winger. It is unlikely that this Thatcherite hangover
will come to power, but after all, we hapless Brits have been ruled by her
true successor since 1997.

Jonathon Green


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 31 15:16:51 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:16:51 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031030153425.00b3e528@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.101651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> Back in 1997, Anne Widdecombe said of Michael Howard, former Home Affairs
> minister, that Howard had, "something of the night" about him. The quote
> has been applied to him as "Mr. Something-of-the-Night" and resurfaced
> today in the IHT. Most of the hits I come across refer to this comment. But
> there are others, mostly in British publications.

Compare the phrase "keeps their fallen day about her" from the following
great passage from Walter Pater, Studies in the History of the Renaissance
(1873) (Pater is writing about DaVinci's Mona Lisa):

"She is older than the rocks among which she sits; like the vampire, she
has been dead many times, and learned the secrets of the grave; and has
been a diver in deep seas, and keeps their fallen day about her; and
trafficked for strange webs with Eastern merchants; and, as Leda, was the
mother of Helen of Troy, and as Saint Anne, the mother of Mary; and all
this has been to her but as the sound of lyres and flutes, and lives only
in the delicacy with which it has moulded the changing lineaments, and
tinged the eyelids and the hands."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Oct 31 15:35:47 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:35:47 -0500
Subject: Wheedling
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.103547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031031/e3027520/attachment.html>

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Oct 31 15:57:48 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:57:48 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.105748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You can tell the folks at CPL that Merriam-Webster places very
high confidence in Barry's scholarship, too.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 16:34:36 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:34:36 -0500
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.113436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In as much as there is no filter now in place that prevents people from posting messages about the word for chicken-coop used on the north bank of the Monongahela, and the fascinating way that it is pronounced, I see no reason to think that the discussions here are not already as broad was the contributors choose to make them.  Let Dennis and those who share his interests post whatever they please.  I have a delete button, too, and I know how to use it.

I am aware that some of us who are interested in the history of words are not outstanding wheat-from-chaff-sifters, but an excellent way to reduce the volume of otiose messages to this list, and one that's within the reach of us all, is to refrain from posting messages announcing that we find some messages uninteresting.  That, and refraining from posting whimsicalities about other folk's typing errors.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:27 am
Subject: Re: a small plea

> I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.
>
> dInIs
>
> >The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
> >the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
> >Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
> >others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
> >and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
> >good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
> >variation.
> >     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
> >work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
> >for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
> >ads-l messages.
> >I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
> >
> >Al;l good wishes.
> >Gerald Cohen
> >
> >P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
> >now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
> >it).
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
> >       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
> >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >       Cc:
> >       Subject: Re: a small plea
> >
> >
> >
> >       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of
> this list,
> >       having to do with language variation in the Americas and
> not almost
> >       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase
> or the
> >       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent
> thoughts on such,
> >       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to
> delete, but my
> >       delete finger is growing weary.
> >
> >       Hopefully,
> >
> >       dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> >       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested
> parties,>            www.bluemountain.com the other day was
> running a pop-up
> >quiz where they
> >       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
> >it was "dachshund
> >       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this
> true?>
> >       Lois Nathan
> >
> >       --
> >       Dennis R. Preston
> >       University Distinguished Professor
> >       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >             Asian & African Languages
> >       Michigan State University
> >       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >       phone: (517) 432-3099
> >
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099
>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Oct 31 16:45:32 2003
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:45:32 -0600
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.104532.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another local voice to chip in, if you want.


Greg
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Fri Oct 31 19:53:47 2003
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:53:47 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <4a3eff24a3f46a.4a3f46a4a3eff2@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.145347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:

>In as much as there is no filter now in place...

Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.

Cheers,
Scott



__________________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky � sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
__________________________________________________________________
"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set point.
Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to regulate us".
  -- George Loewenstein


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 18:43:45 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:43:45 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "ice cream cone" (1905)
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.134345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I posted a 1905 article from the Atlanta Constitution describing how
the cone was "invented" the year before in St. Louis, I found what I believe
to be the earliest cite for the whole term "ice cream cone."

Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 20, 1905;
page number unreadable, column 3:

<S. A. Troxel has concession for selling ice cream cones at Williams Grove.>

SC


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 20:37:35 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:37:35 -0500
Subject: M. Lynne Murphy
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.153735.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems that it has been a year of so since we last heard from our pen-pal Lynne Murphy.

Cambridge University Press has just published her dissertation: Semantic relations and the lexicon : antonymy, synonymy and other paradigms.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Oct 31 21:34:03 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:34:03 -0800
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031031144711.03871f08@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.133403.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
observation FWIW.

It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
both, but nobody would have to.

If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
<lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:

> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>
>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>
> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
> and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky · sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Oct 31 21:49:04 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:49:04 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.134904.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter,
this is the best idea I have read--thanks.
Fritz
>>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 10/31/03 01:34PM >>>
I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
observation FWIW.

It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
both, but nobody would have to.

If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
<lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:

> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>
>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>
> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
> and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky · sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Fri Oct 31 22:40:11 2003
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:40:11 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.144011.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter:

> It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one
the
> lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two
groups
> seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination
seems
> rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
> messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete"
key
> so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS
had
> two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
> both, but nobody would have to.

This is not a "dumb" idea.  I don't mind the lexicographers; sometimes
they're quite entertaining, and good discussions flow from the things they
say and do.  But OTOH, there are lots of questions *I* have about certain
kinds of language changes and uses, that don't seem to be getting addressed
here.  If there were two lists, maybe I or the rest of you could look at
both or one or the other if you or they were so inclined.
Anne G


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 23:37:30 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:37:30 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1067607243@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.183730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.

dInIs

>I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>observation FWIW.
>
>It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
>lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
>seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
>rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
>messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
>so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
>two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
>both, but nobody would have to.
>
>If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
><lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>
>>On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>
>>>In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>
>>Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
>>and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Scott Sadowsky · sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Oct 31 23:49:10 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:49:10 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.154910.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't think that's really what Peter was saying.  To my mind, the point is that many of these posts have nothing to do with dialect. They are simply to relate when a certain word may have been used first.  Those things have value, but not necessarily on the American DIALECT society list.
Fritz
>>> preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU 10/31/03 03:37PM >>>
>Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.

dInIs

>I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>observation FWIW.
>
>It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
>lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
>seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
>rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
>messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
>so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
>two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
>both, but nobody would have to.
>
>If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
><lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>
>>On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>
>>>In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>
>>Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
>>and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Scott Sadowsky + sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Oct 31 23:56:03 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:56:03 -0800
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bbc8a2564138@[35.12.17.154]>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.155603.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Odd, indeed.  And yet my point is that that is the current de facto
situation with this list.

Peter

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 6:37 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

>> Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>> lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>> somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.
>
> dInIs
>
>> I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>> observation FWIW.
>>
>> It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one
>> the lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two
>> groups seem to have fundamentally different interests, and
>> cross-pollination seems rare, with each group mainly ignoring or
>> deleting the other group's messages and sometimes getting grumbly about
>> having to use the "delete" key so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to
>> say this, but what if the ADS had two separate lists?  Anybody
>> interested in both areas could subscribe to both, but nobody would have
>> to.
>>
>> If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> --On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
>> <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>>
>>>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>>
>>> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by
>>> all and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> Scott Sadowsky · sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>>
>>
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:14:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:14:18 EDT
Subject: Tuna Mushroom and Noodle Casserole (1935)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.211418.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I bought a five-hour pass to the TORONTO STAR's Pages of the Past, by the
folks at Cold North Wind who also do PaperOfRecord.com.  It's only 4.95
(Canadian).
   Make any research requests real soon.
   "Nanaimo Bars" turned up only 20 February 1974....No golf "mulligan."
    Here's some tuna, for a starter.


   11 April 1935, TORONTO STAR, pg. 35, col. 1:
_COOKING CHAT_
Marie Holmes
_Tuna Fish Favorite Sea Food Delicacy--Many Types and_
   _Colors--Yellow-Fin Variety Most Popular_
   _--Suggested Recipes_
   Chicken is considered the greatest delicacy among meats, and tuna fish is
the "chicken" in the fish world.
(...)
(Col. 2--ed.)
   TUNA HASH...
   TUNA SALAD...
   TUNA A LA KING...
   TUNA MUSHROOM AND NOODLE CASSEROLE
   1     large can tuna fish
   1     can of thick cream of mushroom soup
   1 1.2 cups of milk
   1 1/2 cups of cooked noodles
   1 1/2 teaspoons of chopped pimento.
   Heat the cream of mushroom soup.  Add the milk gradually, then tuna fish,
noodles and pimento.  Pour into a buttered casserole dish.  Cook 10 minutes in
hot oven 370 degrees F.
   TUNA FISH LOAF...
(Col. 3--ed.)
   TUNA CLUB SANDWICH
   CANAPES


   27 August 1937, TORONTO STAR, pg. 26, col. 7:
MOULDED TUNA FISH SALAD


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:26:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:26:45 EDT
Subject: American Chop Suey (1904)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.212645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Canada.


   25 April 1904, TORONTO STAR, pf. 3, col. 6:
LUN HONG SUEY, 190 York street--Chop suey, China chop suey, American chop
suey, Li (? Illegible--ed.) Hang Chong's chop suey; noodles in any style; fried
noodles.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 01:48:27 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:48:27 EDT
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.214827.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
is they do on their web cams? I got one today from

isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com

she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional namesake is, but she
does think her name is "cool."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 02:07:08 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:08 EDT
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.220708.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Query the American Name Society.
  I got this "pornspam" just today.  Not another penis--wait a minute, it's
from OED!
  "Site Enhancements!"  Are they complete Neanderthals over there in England?

Barry Popik


Subj:   Site Enhancements!
Date:   9/30/2003 5:25:12 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:onlinesubs at oup-usa.org">onlinesubs at oup-usa.org</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

***Please do not reply to this e-mail as it is a post only mailing. If you
have any questions or comments, please address them to
onlinesubscriptions at oup-usa.org

Dear OED subscriber,

When you log onto the OED site today, you'll notice a new look to the home
page and the other general information pages.

In addition to a clean, modern design, the main features of the new public
site include:

* "Find Word" feature now available from the home page for authenticated
subscribers

* Improved navigation features, and better organization of content, so the
page
you want is easier to find

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the pages

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Oxford University Press
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Go to www.oxfordonline.com for information about all of the Oxford Online
products.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  1 02:21:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:21:41 -0400
Subject: names in pornspam
In-Reply-To: <1e1.10c5eaea.2cab8c6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.222141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
>-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
>is they do on their web cams? I got one today from
>
>isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com
>
>she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional

near-

>namesake is, but she
>does think her name is "cool."

Perhaps she thinks it's the feminine counterpart of "Isabel Archer"


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  1 02:40:29 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:40:29 -0700
Subject: names in pornspam
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.194029.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wired.com had a piece a few months ago on the related topic of which
subject-line tags seem to work best for spammers.

Geoff Nunberg

Spam Is in Eye of the Beholder
By Michelle Delio

Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59089,00.html

02:00 AM Jun. 04, 2003 PT

NEW YORK -- Exclamation points are evil!!!

E-mail that features an exuberant sprinkling of exclamation points is
almost guaranteed to provoke petulance in potential clients,
according to Michelle Feit, president of ePostDirect. Free is another
word that sparks sudden skepticism and must be used with extreme care.

Feit was speaking at one of the dozen workshops being offered this
week on successful e-mail marketing during DM Days New York
Conference and Expo in New York City. DM Days is organized by the
Direct Marketing Association, an industry advocacy group.

During the workshops, e-mail marketers shared tips on ways to create
what far too many here describe as "events in e-mail inboxes" --
exciting sales pitches guaranteed to whet the interest of clients.

But wait, there's more!

They also pondered such questions as the best day and time to send
out e-mail advertising pitches, the art and science of subject lines,
the "winningest" way to handle complaints, and how to overcome
customer skepticism in this "age of disbelief."

Between sessions, some mourned the loss of their very favorite
sales-pitch slogans.

"I feel like a lot of really good words have been stolen from me,"
said Kevin Codell, a freelance advertising copywriter who is
attending the conference.

"Free. Opportunity. Exciting. Credit. All of these words are now too
'spammy' to use because they are on the block lists used by antispam
filters," he said. "Even e-mails containing the word click are being
filtered out now."

The hundreds of direct marketers attending DM Days insist they don't
spam, and they would really like to see the shady purveyors of sexual
aids, porn and pirated software prevented from darkening e-mail
inboxes ever again.

But some antispam advocates take issue with the DMA's definition of
spam, saying it contains too many loopholes.

Spam or not, DM Days offers a somewhat unsettling backstage glimpse
into the tips and techniques used by marketers to appeal to potential
customers.

Consultant Lee Mark Stein offered a workshop on "10 tips that you can
use immediately to suspend disbelief." Stein pointed out that the
media and government take great joy in exposing the techniques of
direct marketers; consequently, many people's "bullshit filters" are
now set on high.

In response, Stein suggested that marketers drop phony
personalization, overwrought promises and deceptive sales gimmicks
like those snail-mail solicitations designed to look like bank
checks. Marketers should remember that people who respond to
direct-mail ads are optimists, not idiots, Stein counseled.

According to Tricia Robinson, who led Socketware's workshop on why
e-mail campaigns aren't working, voracious spam filters and a
spam-saturated marketplace are to blame.

Using words co-opted by spammers such as limited-time, free,
opportunity and only now makes recipients of e-mailed pitches wary.
And a wary recipient isn't going to toddle off to a website and
purchase things.

On the other hand, Need to know is still a good phrase to include in
e-mail subject lines. Everyone wants to know what they need to know.

Download, preview or trial also work well. And demo is solid gold --
it woos interested customers who are actually willing to look at the
product without the promise of a free download.

Dollar signs in a subject line are another proven loser. Especially
if that e-mail lands in an inbox on that dreaded Thursday afternoon
in August.

"In general, no one buys anything on Thursday afternoon besides their
basics," said New York-based ad copywriter Les Callhan. "Business
stuff is purchased at the beginning of the week, leisure offers are
ignored until Friday, and no one is interested in anything but
vacation in August. Thursdays in August are the black hole of e-mail
advertising."

Monday isn't a great time for recipients to receive advertising
e-mail either. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are considered prime days for
pitches, as most people are still in work mode but aren't overwhelmed
with Monday's pileup, or end-of-the-week restlessness.

Some of the hints offered at the workshops sounded more hopeful than
useful. There's a persistent thread running through all these
workshops that customers can be persuaded to really "get involved"
with an e-mailed sales pitch.

"Get involved with an ad?" laughed a security worker at the Jacob K.
Javits Convention Center, where DM Days is being held this week.
"What kinds of ads are we talking about here? Some new kind of
inflatable ads for lonely guys?"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 02:52:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:52:28 EDT
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.225228.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    From a search of the TORONTO STAR.


    29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
   Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also about
the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of the
West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies (Newfoundland) and
Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them any
more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
bread.

   11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
Acadian Village):
   When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by horses
or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian dishes
such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked potatoes
wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).

   24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
_Fast-food snack combines_
_cheese, sauce, french fries_
   MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat and
salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
pizza in Quebec snack bars.
   It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
   The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese curds is
added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
   If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce causes
the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
   Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the past two
years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
cheese company.
   Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been sold
to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
   Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
made with spaghetti sauce.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 04:13:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:13:15 EDT
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.001315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Not much new here.  Did Barney Bertsche publish anything?


   19 January 1916, TORONTO STAR, pg. 2, col. 5:

   _THIEVES' SLANG_
_Graphic Language as Heard in the Underworld._

   The following glossary of thieves' slang is compiled by Barney Bertsche,
the notorious Chicago crook, who is now telling the story of his life:
ARREST.....................................................Glaum
BANK..........................................................Jug
BANKER......................................................Jugger
BLOW A SAFE.............................................Kick in the gopher
BOND JUMPER............................................Lamster
CHAIN..........................................................Slang
DETECTIVE...................................................Bull, dick, Mr.
Richard
DIAMOND......................................................Rock
EAT...............................................................Scoff
GIRL..............................................................Moll
HAT...............................................................Skypiece
HOTEL...........................................................Kipsville
JAIL................................................................Stir, pen
JAILER............................................................Screw
JEWELRY.......................................................Junk
KNIFE.............................................................Chiv
LAWYER.........................................................Mouthpiece
MONEY...........................................................Scratch,
dough, jack
OVERCOAT.....................................................Benny
PATROLMAN...................................................Harness, bull,
flatty
PHYSICIAN......................................................Croaker
PICKPOCKET...................................................Cannon, gun dip
POCKET BOOK...............................................Poke, leather
POCKET PICKING GANG..................................Gun mob
REVOLVER......................................................Gat
RING................................................................Hoop
TO RUN............................................................To tear, to
lam
SAFE................................................................Pete,
gopher
SAFEBLOWER....................................................Peterman
SHOPLIFTER.....................................................Booster
SILK..................................................................Worm
SLEEP..............................................................Kip
STREET CAR....................................................Short
STUD................................................................Prop
SUIT OF CLOTHES............................................Tog
TO CATCH A TRAIN...........................................Hop a rattler
TO PICK A POCKET...........................................To nick, to touch
TRAIN................................................................Rattler
VICTIM...............................................................Sucker,
boob, vamp, mark
VALISE, BAG.....................................................Koester
WATCH..............................................................Thimble


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  1 04:50:19 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:50:19 -0400
Subject: I'll take "police vans" for $1000.  Antedating 'paddy wagon' to
 (1914)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.005019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hopefull I've searched the archives this time and won't screw it up the way
I did with "Black Maria."  Sorry George.

The OED and M-W both have 1930 for "paddy wagon."

>From the Washington Post, March 15, 1914:  p.1 of the miscellany section,
col. 5-----

In an article entitled "Lingo of the Old-Time Thief"--from the Chicago
Tribune

     "A "peetman" is a safeblower, and when he blows a safe he "cracks a
joint."  If he is caught and taken to the station in the "paddy wagon" he
may be given "six months in the buck" or a "long bit" or a "short bit."


From bpk at NOTHING.COM  Wed Oct  1 05:07:06 2003
From: bpk at NOTHING.COM (Brian Kariger)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:07:06 -0700
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
In-Reply-To: <17d.20fb6243.2cabae5b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.SEP.2003.220706.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

I really enjoy your contributions to the list. One word you might be
interested in antedating is scam, which only goes back to 1963 in OED
and elsewhere.

All the best,
Brian


On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 09:13  PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Not much new here.  Did Barney Bertsche publish anything?
>
>
>    19 January 1916, TORONTO STAR, pg. 2, col. 5:
>
>    _THIEVES' SLANG_
> _Graphic Language as Heard in the Underworld._
>
>    The following glossary of thieves' slang is compiled by Barney
> Bertsche,
> the notorious Chicago crook, who is now telling the story of his life:
> ARREST.....................................................Glaum
> BANK..........................................................Jug
> BANKER......................................................Jugger
> BLOW A SAFE.............................................Kick in the
> gopher
> BOND JUMPER............................................Lamster
> CHAIN..........................................................Slang
> DETECTIVE...................................................Bull,
> dick, Mr.
> Richard
> DIAMOND......................................................Rock
> EAT...............................................................Scoff
> GIRL..............................................................Moll
> HAT...............................................................Skypi
> ece
> HOTEL...........................................................Kipsvil
> le
> JAIL................................................................Sti
> r, pen
> JAILER............................................................Screw
> JEWELRY.......................................................Junk
> KNIFE.............................................................Chiv
> LAWYER.........................................................Mouthpie
> ce
> MONEY...........................................................Scratch
> ,
> dough, jack
> OVERCOAT.....................................................Benny
> PATROLMAN...................................................Harness,
> bull,
> flatty
> PHYSICIAN......................................................Croaker
> PICKPOCKET...................................................Cannon,
> gun dip
> POCKET BOOK...............................................Poke, leather
> POCKET PICKING GANG..................................Gun mob
> REVOLVER......................................................Gat
> RING................................................................Hoo
> p
> TO RUN............................................................To
> tear, to
> lam
> SAFE................................................................Pet
> e,
> gopher
> SAFEBLOWER....................................................Peterman
> SHOPLIFTER.....................................................Booster
> SILK..................................................................W
> orm
> SLEEP..............................................................Kip
> STREET CAR....................................................Short
> STUD................................................................Pro
> p
> SUIT OF CLOTHES............................................Tog
> TO CATCH A TRAIN...........................................Hop a
> rattler
> TO PICK A POCKET...........................................To nick, to
> touch
> TRAIN................................................................Ra
> ttler
> VICTIM...............................................................Su
> cker,
> boob, vamp, mark
> VALISE, BAG.....................................................Koester
> WATCH..............................................................Thim
> ble
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 05:24:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 01:24:03 EDT
Subject: Thieves' Slang (1916)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.012403.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thanks.  I'll try to tackle that soon.

Barry Popik
least paid, hardest-working editor of OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD
AND DRINK (2004);
not-paid-at-all contributor to DARE and HDAS and OED and Merriam-Webster


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 13:10:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:10:21 EDT
Subject: Gorilla warfare
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.091021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall having
heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like "this
product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that everybody will
start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".

The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical mass".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
AOL News did it again.

APE ESCAPES FROM ZOO, INJURES TWO
POLL SAYS ARNOLD WILL WIN

           - Jim Landau


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Oct  1 13:18:10 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:18:10 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <c.195c074f.2cac2c3d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.091810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.

His web site:
http://www.gladwell.com/

The original article:
http://www.gladwell.com/1996/1996_06_03_a_tipping.htm

More about the book:
http://www.gladwell.com/books.html


On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> having
> heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.
>
> The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like
> "this
> product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that
> everybody will
> start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".
>
> The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical
> mass".


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  1 13:26:59 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:26:59 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <c.195c074f.2cac2c3d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.092659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:10 AM -0400 10/1/03, James A. Landau wrote:
>Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall having
>heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

There was a best-selling book by journalist Malcolm Gladwell on the
concept that got a lot of play in the media a couple of years ago.
I'm sure if you did a study there would be a spike just as Gladwell's
book was published (one of his examples was the effect on crime rates
in NYC of the prosecution of quality-of-life crimes in the early
90's), and then a gradual decline since then, but references still
pop up periodically.
>
>The context was marketing of software and the sense was something like "this
>product has now reached a sufficiently large market share that everybody will
>start buying it so as to be compatible with the rest of the world".
>
>The closest synonym that I can think of is, of all things, "critical mass".

Similar idea, but the two can't be used interchangeably, whence the
utility of the "tipping point" metaphor.  (Whether or not the
phenomenon itself has been accurately described.)

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Oct  1 14:43:45 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 07:43:45 -0700
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <B4354C4F-F411-11D7-B383-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.074345.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>:

> It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
> Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.

> On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> > having
> > heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.

Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.

The following appears on Usenet, soc.culture.indian, 23 Oct 1992:

"Another view suggests that a tipping point in discrimination occurs when
minorites evidence successes as this is perceived to be threatening to the
host
society."

I'm a bit surprised it is this late. The metaphor is fairly obvious and basic.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Oct  1 14:56:39 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:56:39 -0400
Subject: Tipping point
In-Reply-To: <1065019425.3f7ae82108751@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.105639.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 07:43 AM 10/1/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Quoting Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>:
>
> > It was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell who wrote an article for the New
> > Yorker in 1996 on the subject, then a successful book.
>
> > On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 09:10 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
> >
> > > Has anyone run across the phrase "tipping point".  I don't recall
> > > having
> > > heard it before, then in the past week I saw it twice on-line.
>
>Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.
>
>The following appears on Usenet, soc.culture.indian, 23 Oct 1992:
>
>"Another view suggests that a tipping point in discrimination occurs when
>minorites evidence successes as this is perceived to be threatening to the
>host
>society."
>
>I'm a bit surprised it is this late. The metaphor is fairly obvious and basic.
>
>--
>Dave Wilton
>dave at wilton.net
>http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


It's not. Here's the article Safire did on it based on my research and 
interviews. I was able to get it back to 1957.

THE WAY WE LIVE NOW: 7-27-03: ON LANGUAGE; Tipping
By William Safire
'I do think the concept of a tipping point is correct,'' Defense Secretary 
Donald H. Rumsfeld said on April 7, when asked about his frequent use of 
that phrase about public opinion in Iraq. ''And at some point, the 
aggregation of all those individual tipping points having been reached, it 
will be, in effect, the country will have tipped.''
With the unforgettable live television coverage of a symbolic event in 
Firdos Square in Baghdad, the two words were on many media lips in the 
following weeks. ''Like the giant statue of Saddam Hussein that slowly 
tumbled to the ground in central Baghdad yesterday,'' wrote Paul Ignatius 
in The Washington Post, ''the war in Iraq has been determined by a series 
of tipping points that mean the collapse of the regime.''

Then came the deluge of usages of that phrase in other contexts. ''School 
System at 'Tipping Point''' headlined The Financial Times. ''America has 
hit a tipping point in which fair-minded people now support equality,'' 
said a Freedom to Marry advocate after the Supreme Court decision striking 
down sodomy laws. In a Times Magazine article about offbeat names being 
given today's babies, Peggy Orenstein wrote, ''The tipping point came when 
Christie Brinkley, who is very visible, named her daughter Sailor because 
she and her husband liked to sail.'' (Coming soon for girls: Jade, Chloe, 
Destiny. For boys: Caleb, Liam, Tristan. Unfortunately for that last little 
fellow, girls are not predicted to be named Isolde. Now back to today's 
subject.)
The phrase that has become the overpowering clich? of the year was first 
popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in an influential 1996 article in The New 
Yorker, and in a subsequent best-selling book with that title. Subtitled 
''How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference,'' Gladwell deals with the 
way some ideas slowly spread and then suddenly take off. The New Yorker 
staff writer took the trope from epidemiology, the study of epidemics: 
''The tipping point is that moment in an epidemic when a virus reaches 
critical mass, the moment on the graph when the line starts to shoot 
straight upwards.''
''AIDS tipped in 1982,'' Gladwell told his Web site, ''when it went from a 
rare disease affecting a few gay men to a worldwide epidemic. Crime in New 
York City tipped in the mid 1990's, when the murder rate suddenly 
plummeted. When I heard that phrase for the first time, I remember 
thinking: Wow. What if everything has a tipping point? Wouldn't it be cool 
to try and look for tipping points in business, in social policy or in 
advertising or in any number of nonmedical areas?'' (The writer's subtitle 
for his 1996 article was bottomed on the medical figure of speech: ''Why is 
the city suddenly so much safer -- could it be that crime really is an 
epidemic?'') This led sales-chartists to the related term, viral marketing.
Like a low-level flu, the phrase had been kicking around for years. In an 
endnote, Gladwell referenced a 1978 book by a University of Maryland 
professor of public affairs, Thomas Schelling, ''Micro Motives and Macro 
Behavior.'' Professor Schelling tells me that ''the first thing I published 
on tipping'' was in a chapter of a 1972 book on neighborhood racial 
segregation, and he directed me to an October 1957 article on that subject 
in Scientific American, by Morton Grodzins, a University of Chicago 
political-science professor.
''White residents, who will tolerate a few Negroes as neighbors, either 
willingly or unwillingly,'' Grodzins wrote nearly a half-century ago, 
''begin to move out when the proportion of Negroes in the neighborhood or 
apartment building passes a certain critical point. This 'tip point' varies 
from city to city. Once it is exceeded, they will no longer stay among 
Negro neighbors.''
Homer Bigart, the legendary New York Herald Tribune war correspondent and 
later New York Times reporter, picked up the phrase in that context in a 
1959 article on racial tension in Virginia. Bigart quoted the educator 
Robert Williams: ''Exactly when the tipping point of white acceptance will 
be reached will depend upon the attitude of the individual white parent and 
upon the general white community attitude.''
Says Schelling: ''The phenomenon was originally discussed in relation to 
residential patterns. I generalized it to many kinds of behavior in that 
1978 book.'' Gladwell then popularized and further generalized the concept, 
and the warrior Rumsfeld applied it to public opinion in Iraq, thereby 
carrying it into every home and hearth.
But it is now a tired, worn-out clich?, to be avoided by fresh thinkers 
like the plague. (Though avoided like the plague is also a bromide, its 
connection to epidemiology makes it apt in this case.)
The predecessor phrase, critical mass, though dated, is still usable. 
Nuclear physicists, who took the term, coined in 1940 by Prof. Margaret 
Gowing of Oxford University, to mean ''the minimum mass of fissile material 
required to sustain a chain reaction,'' still pout when lay writers extend 
its meaning to ''anything large enough to achieve the desired result.'' The 
metaphor is dramatic -- there's a mushroom cloud somewhere in the 
background -- but it has been in active use too long.
Pointillists will look at boiling point, but that does not suggest radical 
change. Focal point is about convergence, not transformation. Turning 
point? Not a lot of bezazz, and it does not express the idea of the straw 
that breaks the camel's back or the little extra quantity that causes 
systemic shift, but it makes the point of the moment of new direction and 
is probably the father of tipping point.
The difficulty in finding a forceful, colorful synonym demonstrates how the 
Grodzins coinage met a semantic need. But disdainers of clich? must ask 
ourselves, What is it that the overuse of tipping point has reached?
Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Oct  1 15:15:43 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:15:43 -0700
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
In-Reply-To: <200310010252.h912qfTX011486@mxu4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.081543.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Poutine has made it to the west coast, and as my Canadian friend says, at
least here it is the most disgusting concoction you can imagine.  No
barbecue sauce in British Columbia.  Here, poutine (on more menus than you
would have guessed; even found in a Chinese restaurant in Quesnel)
consists of french fries with gravy.  There may have been cheese curds,
but I avoided looking more than once.  It would have been considered rude
by those who'd ordered it.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     From a search of the TORONTO STAR.
>
>
>     29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
>    Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also about
> the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
> them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of the
> West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies (Newfoundland) and
> Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them any
> more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
> bread.
>
>    11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
> Acadian Village):
>    When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by horses
> or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian dishes
> such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked potatoes
> wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).
>
>    24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
> _Fast-food snack combines_
> _cheese, sauce, french fries_
>    MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat and
> salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
> pizza in Quebec snack bars.
>    It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
> cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
>    The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
> steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese curds is
> added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
>    If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce causes
> the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
>    Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
> Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the past two
> years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
> cheese company.
>    Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been sold
> to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
>    Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
> made with spaghetti sauce.
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Oct  1 16:39:23 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:39:23 -0400
Subject: Gorilla warfare
In-Reply-To: <1065019425.3f7ae82108751@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.123923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Gladwell didn't coin the phrase.

I agree, which is why I was careful to write, "popularized."

Grant


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct  1 18:35:02 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 13:35:02 -0500
Subject: Who is Isabella Archer? (was: names in pornspam)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.133502.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:48 PM -0400 9/30/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anyone thought of doing a study of the names used by pornspam advertisers
>-- you know, the ones who want you to pay them to watch them do whatever it
>is they do on their web cams? I got one today from
>
>isabellaarcher at solicited-email.com
>
>she doesn't indicate that she knows who her fictional namesake is, but she
>does think her name is "cool."


  Please forgive this no doubt naive question: Who is the fictional
Isabella Archer?

Gerald Cohen


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Oct  1 18:49:35 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:49:35 -0700
Subject: Who is Isabella Archer? (was: names in pornspam)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.114935.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isabel Archer is the heroine of Henry James's "Portrait of a Lady" (She was
played by Nicole Kidman in the most recent film adaptation, I think,
although I didn't see it myself.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 22:17:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:17:46 EDT
Subject: Fight/Hockey Game (1978, Toronto Star credits Dangerfield)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.181746.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sorry for that last ADS-L post; I thought it was a personal e-mail.
   I still have some time on my Toronto Star "Pages of the Past"
subscription, so I thought that I'd check this classic hockey phrase.  (See ADS-L archives
for Washington Post and New York Times citations just slightly later.)


   27 September 1978, TORONTO STAR, pg C1, col. 4:
   There are several ways hockey serves as entertainment on the tube.  There
are the fights, or as comedian Rodney Dangerfield says, "I went to a fight
last night and a hockey game broke out."

   30 December 1978, TORONTO STAR,  pg. B1, col. 4 (Year-end sports
round-up):
   _Quote:_  "I went to a fight the other night," said Rodney Dangerfield,
"and a hockey game broke out."

   27 February 1979, TORONTO STAR, pg. A9, col. 7 (letters):
   As one disillusioned writer said of an NHL game: "I went to a boxing match
and a hockey game broke out."

   12 March 1979, TORONTO STAR, pg. B1, col. 3:
   Comedian Rodney Dangerfield's one-liner "I went to a fight last night and
a hockey game broke out" became reality during a tasteless National Hockey
League match last night.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  1 23:22:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 19:22:32 EDT
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.192232.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Allan Metcalf wants to get more Canadians involved in the ADS.  I don't
know if this post will help.
   The HDAS has a "hoser" entry.  The first citation is MACLEAN'S, 21 April
1982, with "hoser" meaning "a stupid, crude, or annoying person."  The second
definition ("an uncultivated Canadian person") is cited from 1984.
   This is what the TORONTO STAR has.


   2 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. A4, col. 5:
_Trend to togues_
_beer, back bacon_
_is taking off, eh?_
(...)
   MacKenzie brothers phrases like "hoser" and their habit of wearing toques
and ear muffs while drinking beer are being imitated in living rooms and
schools across Metro.
(...)
   For parents puzzled by talk of hosers and such, Rick Moranis explained in
a telephone interview from Edmonton, where the show is taped, that "a hoser is
what you call your brother when your folks won't let you swear."


   26 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G7, col. 1 photo caption:
_Doug McKenzie/_ What a hoser, eh?


   18 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A21, col. 2:
_The German answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Media people seem at a loss on how to define the newly created exclusive
Canadian derivative "hoser," which is vaguely explained as someone slow about
his wits.
   As a Canadian of German origin, maybe I can help.  Hose in German is
"Schlauch."  Hence a "hoser" would be known as a "Schlaucher," denoting a person
who drinks to excess, filling up as from a "Schlauch."
   And there you have it.  Hoser: One who tipples a lot--in short, a lush.
   E. GERLITZ
   Ajax


   26 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A19, col. 3:
_The simple answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Re: The letter "The Geramn answer to 'hoser' question," Feb. 6. (Wrong
date?--ed.)
   The word "hoser," in a certain sense, isn't really new, and its origin
would seem to be simple.
   During World War II, it was commonplace to hear people using the slang
verb "to hose" in the same sense as the modern phrase "to be shafted," meaning
cheated, or treated unfairly or maliciously.  Thus we had such expressions as,
"Don't let them hose you," and "I hope I don't get hosed."
   To turn the verb "to hose" into a noun or an adjective--"You're a hoser,"
or "This hoser repairman"--is a minor readjustment.  Since the literal meaning
of hosing would be to spray with water from a hose, and particularly if this
was done to a person in a malicious or unpleasant manner.  I would suggest
that the origin of "hoser" is as simple as this.
   ERIC ADAMS
   Toronto


 (Actually, the word "hoser" is American, of Indiana dialect, and means
"Who's ear?"--ed.)


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Oct  1 23:41:47 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:41:47 -0700
Subject: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0310010813560.49466@homer35.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.164147.0700.>

as a former Quebecker now living in Vancouver BC, I feel obliged to defend
the honour of poutine.

it's delicious.

...when prepared correctly.

folks here just don't get it.  however, there's hope.  NY Fries (!!) makes a
decent poutine, and then, there's the little Mom and Pops opening up in
downtown Vancouver, catering to the ever-increasing influx of urban former
Montrealers.  They fly in the curds, the smoked meat, and the Jos Louis
pastries overnight from Montreal !

cheers -

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of J. Eulenberg
Sent: October 1, 2003 8:16 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)


Poutine has made it to the west coast, and as my Canadian friend says, at
least here it is the most disgusting concoction you can imagine.  No
barbecue sauce in British Columbia.  Here, poutine (on more menus than you
would have guessed; even found in a Chinese restaurant in Quesnel)
consists of french fries with gravy.  There may have been cheese curds,
but I avoided looking more than once.  It would have been considered rude
by those who'd ordered it.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Poutine (1957, 1981, 1982)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>     From a search of the TORONTO STAR.
>
>
>     29 May 1957, TORONTO STAR, pg. 21: col. 6:
>    Myra (Myra Waldo's Round the World Cookbook--ed.)  has written also
about
> the dandy pork pies we Canadians dearly love (the habitants down east call
> them "poutine rapee" and they're absolutely frightful) and the venison of
the
> West, to say nothing of bear, beaver tails, seal flipper pies
(Newfoundland) and
> Oka cheese.  No self-respecting Canadian city table would be without them
any
> more than it would fail to serve crusty, warm, full-bodied country-style
> bread.
>
>    11 April 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G9, col. 5 (TRAVEL: New Brunswick's
> Acadian Village):
>    When your feet give out you can hop a passing cariolle, pulled by
horses
> or oxen, and when lunch-time rolls around, sample traditional Acadian
dishes
> such as chicken fricot (stew) or poutine rape (a ball of grated cooked
potatoes
> wrapped around a core of meat and gravy).
>
>    24 March 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. C6 (Food), col. 1:
> _Fast-food snack combines_
> _cheese, sauce, french fries_
>    MONTREAL (CP)--Although nutritionists may shudder at its starch, fat
and
> salt content, a new fast-food snack is gaining on hot dogs, hamburgers and
> pizza in Quebec snack bars.
>    It's called poutine and it combines french fried potatoes with curds of
> cheese and hot barbecue sauce.
>    The recipe is simple.  It starts with freshly-made french fries ladled
> steaming hot into a large paper cup.  Then a generous spoonful of cheese
curds is
> added and finally a lashing of the hot barbecue sauce.
>    If correctly made, the best of the (Col. 2--ed.) potatoes and sauce
causes
> the cheese to melt and form sticky tendrils around each french fry.
>    Poutine, which has been popular for at least five years in southeastern
> Quebec, is responsible for almost doubling sales of fresh curd over the
past two
> years, says Robert Briscoe, president of Les Fromages Gemme, a Marieville
> cheese company.
>    Recently as much as 50 per cent of Briscoe's curd production has been
sold
> to small snack bars and roadside stands to make into poutine.
>    Two types of poutine can be found in Quebec--regular and Italian-style,
> made with spaghetti sauce.
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct  2 01:26:31 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:26:31 -0500
Subject: Fwd: puns involving foods (e.g. Soda & Gomorra)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.202631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Today I received an e-mail which I assume is circulating around the
Internet, and I share an excerpt below my signoff. While seemingly
frivolous nature, it is relevant to the study of humor and creativity
in language.

Gerald Cohen



>...Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream is now available in Israel...
                In the following flavors:
                        Wailing Walnut
                        Moishmellow
                        Mazel Toffee
                        Chazalnut
                        Oy-Ge-malt
                        Mi-Ka-mocha
                        Soda & Gomorra
                        Bernard Malamint
                        Berry Pr'i Hagafen
                        Choc-Eilat Chip
and finally (drum roll, please).......Simchas T'oreo

It should also be noted that all these flavors come in a Cohen


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 01:46:09 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 21:46:09 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Who=20is=20Isabella=20Arc?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?her=3F=20(was:=20names=20in=20pornspam)?=
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.214609.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/1/03 2:42:34 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:


> ? Please forgive this no doubt naive question: Who is the fictional
> Isabella Archer?
> 

There is a character in a novel by Henry James with a name that is very 
similar.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 03:01:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:01:42 EDT
Subject: Pablum (1931, 1932); Julekake (1938)
Message-ID: <WED.1.OCT.2003.230142.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JULEKAKE

   Beverly Flanagan wanted me to do better with "julekake."  The TORONTO STAR
has a nice cooking column, so I've done better--by two months!


   7 October 1938, TORONTO STAR, pg. 30, col. 6:
   The Hutzelbrot which Nancy had served to her club proved such a success
that other members of the group[ said, "Why don't we make some more of those
good rich fruited breads?  We can practise up ahead for Christmas.  But after all
I don't see why we have to wait for the holidays to have something so good."
   It was Mrs. Knutsen who served them with a Norwegian Christmas bread
called Julekake.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PABLUM

And Helen Quinn quite rightly adds two trademark names that have become words
in common international usage to my list of Canadian exported terms.  These
are _Pablum_ and _Fuller Brush man._.  The first was invented in Toronto at the
Sick Kid's; the second comes from the Maritimes where Mr. Fuller.was raised.
--TORONTO STAR, 31 October 1962, pg. 37, col. 8.

   "Pablum" is not mentioned at all in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   OED lists the 1932 trademark by Mead, Johnson & Co, Evansville, Indiana.
As in Hoosiers, not hosers.
    Merriam-Webster gives 1948 for the word "pablum" (from the trademark) and
1733 for the word "pabulum" (L., food).
    Here's the trademark:


Word Mark   PABLUM
Goods and Services  (EXPIRED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: SPECIALLY PREPARED
CEREAL FOOD CONSISTING OF A MIXTURE OF WHEAT MEAL, OATMEAL, AND YELLOW CORN MEAL,
TO WHICH HAVE BEEN ADDED WHEAT EMBRYO, DRIED YEAST, POWDERED DEHYDRATED ALFALFA
LEAF, AND POWDERED BEEF BONE PREPARED FOR HUMAN USE. FIRST USE: 19320604.
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19320604
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   71327942
Filing Date June 13, 1932
Registration Number 0297897
Registration Date   October 4, 1932
Owner   (REGISTRANT) MEAD JOHNSON & COMPANY CORPORATION INDIANA OHIO STREET
AND SAINT JOSEPH AVENUE EVANSVILLE INDIANA
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Renewal 2ND RENEWAL 19721004
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD

     The first citation of "pablum" in the TORONTO STAR is 17 January 1934,
pg. 16, col. 3 ad, "MEAD'S PABLUM COOKED CEREAL...45c."
      But wait--let's GOOGLE:

http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts/canadian_studies/english/about/study_guide/doct
ors/better_foods.html

        Canadian Medicine: Doctors and Discoveries
        Better Foods, Improved Nutrition: Pablum and Children's Health
 During the 1920s and 1930s, considerable time and effort were spent studying
the science of artificial feeding. The scientific management of child-rearing
in general - from food to behaviour advice - increased the professional role
and authority of physicians in child care issues. Society seemed to welcome
the scientific approach to infant feeding and food and bought products that
advertised increased nutritional value for their children. In 1931, Pablum, an
infant cereal containing necessary minerals and vitamins for children's health,
became available in Canada and the United States. The food was heralded as an
excellent cereal addition to the infant's diet and remains a popular infant
food today. It was three Canadian doctors - Frederick Tisdall (1893-1949),
Theodore Drake (1891-1959), and Alan Brown (1887-1960) - who developed Pablum at the
Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.
   Tisdall was a pediatrician interested in nutritional research. In 1929, he
became the director of the hospital's nutritional research laboratories and
pursued various projects towards improved children's health. By early 1930,
Tisdall, Drake, Brown and others announced their first new major product towards
the betterment of children's diets. That product was Sunwheat, a biscuit
containing whole wheat, wheat germ, milk, butter, yeast, bone meal, iron, and
copper. It boasted a high vitamin content of A, B1 and B2, D, and E. McCormick's
food company agreed to market the product and all royalties were returned to the
Toronto Pediatric Foundation for further research at the Hospital for Sick
Children.
   Six months later, Tisdall, collaborating with Brown and Drake, announced
the development of another, more important food product for children - Pablum
(from the Latin word pabulum, meaning food). This was an infant cereal product
that unlike other cereal mixtures had the necessary minerals and five of the
six known vitamins that growing children needed. The five vitamins were A, B1
and B2, D and E, and were produced from a mixture of wheat, oats, corn, and
bone meal plus wheat germ, dried brewer's yeast, and alfalfa. This was all
ground, mixed, dried, and pre-cooked. The Mead Johnson company in the United States
agreed to sell the new product. And it sold well! Like Sunwheat, royalties
from Pablum sales reverted to the Toronto Paediatric Foundation for research for
a period of twenty-five years.
   Over the next several years, Tisdall and others at the Hospital for Sick
Children introduced more nutritionally-improved products for children. For
example, in the 1930s, they instigated the adding of Vitamin D to bread flour and
milk, which eliminated the need for daily doses of cod liver oil for many
children. For that alone, many Canadians (particulary those taking cod liver oil)
have thanked these Toronto pediatricians for their work on nutrition and
diets.


(Oh, all right!  I'll give Canada pablum!  "Pablum," the national cuisine!!
Canadians on the list, please, please don't kill me.  It's a joke--ed.)"


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Oct  2 14:50:42 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:50:42 -0700
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.075042.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a 'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.
Fritz

>>> Bapopik at AOL.COM 10/01/03 04:22PM >>>
   Allan Metcalf wants to get more Canadians involved in the ADS.  I don't
know if this post will help.
   The HDAS has a "hoser" entry.  The first citation is MACLEAN'S, 21 April
1982, with "hoser" meaning "a stupid, crude, or annoying person."  The second
definition ("an uncultivated Canadian person") is cited from 1984.
   This is what the TORONTO STAR has.


   2 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. A4, col. 5:
_Trend to togues_
_beer, back bacon_
_is taking off, eh?_
(...)
   MacKenzie brothers phrases like "hoser" and their habit of wearing toques
and ear muffs while drinking beer are being imitated in living rooms and
schools across Metro.
(...)
   For parents puzzled by talk of hosers and such, Rick Moranis explained in
a telephone interview from Edmonton, where the show is taped, that "a hoser is
what you call your brother when your folks won't let you swear."


   26 November 1981, TORONTO STAR, pg. G7, col. 1 photo caption:
_Doug McKenzie/_ What a hoser, eh?


   18 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A21, col. 2:
_The German answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Media people seem at a loss on how to define the newly created exclusive
Canadian derivative "hoser," which is vaguely explained as someone slow about
his wits.
   As a Canadian of German origin, maybe I can help.  Hose in German is
"Schlauch."  Hence a "hoser" would be known as a "Schlaucher," denoting a person
who drinks to excess, filling up as from a "Schlauch."
   And there you have it.  Hoser: One who tipples a lot--in short, a lush.
   E. GERLITZ
   Ajax


   26 February 1982, TORONTO STAR, pg. A19, col. 3:
_The simple answer_
_to "hoser" question_
   Re: The letter "The Geramn answer to 'hoser' question," Feb. 6. (Wrong
date?--ed.)
   The word "hoser," in a certain sense, isn't really new, and its origin
would seem to be simple.
   During World War II, it was commonplace to hear people using the slang
verb "to hose" in the same sense as the modern phrase "to be shafted," meaning
cheated, or treated unfairly or maliciously.  Thus we had such expressions as,
"Don't let them hose you," and "I hope I don't get hosed."
   To turn the verb "to hose" into a noun or an adjective--"You're a hoser,"
or "This hoser repairman"--is a minor readjustment.  Since the literal meaning
of hosing would be to spray with water from a hose, and particularly if this
was done to a person in a malicious or unpleasant manner.  I would suggest
that the origin of "hoser" is as simple as this.
   ERIC ADAMS
   Toronto


 (Actually, the word "hoser" is American, of Indiana dialect, and means
"Who's ear?"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Oct  2 15:30:58 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:30:58 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <sf7bd8dc.096@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.113058.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.

How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.

Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?

Isn't "hose monster" based on Sesame Street's "Cookie Monster" (who always
wants a cookie)?

-- Doug Wilson


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct  2 16:16:17 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:16:17 -0500
Subject: DARE in SALON today
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.111617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE is cited in the response to the lonelyhearts advice column
question in Salon today.

Pasted in below.

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com

Since you asked ...
- - - - - - - - - - - -


Queer eye for the wrong guy
I'm gay, but the love of my life says he's straight. Can we still be friends?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Cary Tennis



Oct. 1, 2003  |  Dear Cary,

How do you suggest "curing" yourself of being madly, completely and
obsessively in love with one of your best friends, with whom there's
absolutely no chance that it will move beyond anything but friendship?

I'm a gay man, and almost two years ago, my boyfriend of five years
suddenly dumped me, proclaiming his newfound heterosexuality; he was
in love with one of our mutual, female friends. They have since gone
on to have a wonderful relationship and are now expecting their first
child. This threw me into a tailspin. I was devastated and no longer
speak to either one of them. But in the last two years, I've managed
to somewhat make my peace with the situation and have started to
forgive them both. But herein lies the problem.

Around the same time as the breaking-up trauma, I made a new friend
through another friend I already had. Despite the fact that he was
"straight" and had a girlfriend, he was very flirtatious, touchy,
sensitive and very, very attentive. I began to get "signals," and I
started imagining scenarios of him rescuing me from my pain and
bewilderment. After several months, I could no longer take it and
broke down to him in the middle of a restaurant during dinner,
confessing that I was in love with him and knew that he had feelings
for me as well, and I was very curious as to what was going to
happen. He was shocked. He had no idea he had sent me mixed signals
and was heartbroken that he had unintentionally led me on. In
retrospect, I realize that this is just his personality, and he
treats all of his male friends this way.

We have continued to remain friends since then, and have grown
extremely close, but the problem is that my feelings still remain and
are stronger than ever. I've tried dating other people, but no one
(no matter how great a person they are) can measure up to him. He's
everything I've ever wanted in a lifelong partner, and being around
him brings me such joy and hope, but also makes me extremely
depressed. At this point, he is much more of a hindrance in moving on
from my failed relationship than my ex-boyfriend ever was.

I've tried distancing myself, but he and I are both totally wrapped
up in the same social group. Besides that, I don't want to. I would
still prefer him in my life as a friend than not at all, but his
friendship keeps me from moving on. This has been torturing me for
nearly two years now, and I'm starting to think I'm using it as a
"crutch" or an excuse to not get close to people that could hurt me
again. I'm sure this is probably a fairly textbook situation, and I
would love to hear your thoughts on it.


Straight Chaser

Dear Straight Chaser,

This may be a textbook case, but you cannot rely on textbooks. You
can't even rely on reference books. For instance, if I turned to my
beloved Dictionary of American Regional English, I would find that
"gay" is Quaker and Amish slang for "worldly." In A-H, the first
volume of what William Safire called "the most exciting linguistic
project going on in the United States," there is no mention of "gay"
meaning "homosexual." The slip-cover of that 1985 work notes, "Over a
five-year period, fieldworkers interviewed natives of 1,002
communities, a patchwork of the United States in all its diversity."
You mean to tell me that not one of those individuals in one of those
1,002 diverse communities noted to the interviewers that the word
"gay" means homosexual?

So much for textbook situations. If this is a textbook situation,
then not much has changed since Henry Drummond noted in his 1894
"Ascent of Man," "In almost every [science] department, the
text-books of ten years ago are obsolete today."

While the reference books are open, however, let me give you a couple
of citations, just for amusement: From the American Spectator, 1935:
"Two special expressions, for which there are no good American
equivalents, are in use among the 'plain' people (i.e., those who
wear the plain garb of the Mennonites, Amish, and other religious
sects): "to go gay," meaning to become worldly in the sense of
attending dances, card parties, movies, or participating in other
forbidden pleasures." Or as Fredric Klees noted in "The Pennsylvania
Dutch" in 1951, just two years before Merriam-Webster's 10th
Collegiate dates the first use of "gay" to mean "homosexual":
"Occasionally there is magic in the phraseology, as in the case of
the Amish girl who was expelled from meeting because she married a
Reformed youth and 'went gay.'"

To get even close to any sexual connotations in the word "gay," we
must turn to the 1811 "Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue: Buckish
Slang, University Wit, and Pickpocket Eloquence," which defines
"Gaying Instrument" as "the penis."

So keep your gaying instrument in your trousers as we continue. To
sum up: This may be a textbook situation, but the real learning takes
place in the field. What you have learned so far, apparently, is to
rely on nonverbal cues. That's why you're in a pickle. What you're
relying on in your unspoken negotiations with members of your sex is
a vast secret language that developed over centuries in a society
that has had to signal its great passions in public silence. I fear
that language is rapidly falling apart, but because there remains a
great social stigma, that silent language is still in use.

The communication problem is compounded by the rapid spread of
subculture slang across class boundaries (witness the virtuosity of
white male suburban teens in rich black slang; witness "Queer Eye for
the Straight Guy"). As the slang, posture and gestures of subgroups
are bastardized by the popular media, the signal degrades; terms lose
their meaning and fall prone to misinterpretation. Not only that, but
the rapid breaking down of gender signals in our culture causes
particular problems in your case.

So what do you do? You counter obfuscation with overdefinition. You
counter vagueness with aggressive clarity verging on the absurd. You
use a better, more explicit language, both verbal and gestural, one
that's widely understood by mainstream culture. Basically, you must
appropriate the language of romance to end this non-romance: You're
going to have to break up with your friend.

Of course, since he thinks you're just friends, he may register
surprise when you break up with him. But don't let that stop you. A
man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Pick a nice restaurant, where you don't have to shout and you can
have some privacy. Buy him something nice beforehand. When the time
seems right, explain to him that you've tried hard to make the
relationship work. Tell him it's become clear that you and he have
different needs. Tell him it's over. Tell him not to cry, but hand
him a hankie if you spy a glistening pearl of salty tear begin to
bloom at the inner canthus of his reddening eye.

He may not understand now, but in time he will. And though experience
has shown that it's hard for non-lovers to become friends after they
break up, it doesn't hurt to hold out that hope. Reassure him that
he'll find Mr. Right eventually. And tell him that eventually, once
he's over this, you'd like to be friends.

That should leave him speechless so that you can excuse yourself, pay
the check and leave alone, quietly, through the back way.

- - - - - - - - - - - -



Want more advice from Cary? Read the Since You Asked directory.

salon.com





- - - - - - - - - - - -
About the writer
Cary Tennis is the copy chief and a staff writer at Salon, and he
gives interesting advice.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Oct  2 16:33:58 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:33:58 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <sf7bd8dc.096@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.123358.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes:
>>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.

>How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
>heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
>frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
>F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
>hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.

>Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
>etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
>letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?

~~~~~~

 I remember hearing "hoser" frequently on CBC radio in the late 70s & early
80s and being puzzled by it, but its contexts suggested only slight
rudeness, not indecency or obscenity.  I wasn't aware of the US usage, so
had no association with it, but it was used so freely in Canadian talk,
that I think their gloss *was* different. While Canadian airwaves are not
Bowdlerized to the extent ours are -- "fuck" & "shit," &c., are not bleeped
-- still, context marked this as a milder expression.
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  2 16:45:44 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:45:44 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bba1fcb88744@[12.107.149.207]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.124544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Doug Wilson writes:
>>>I remember when the MacKenzie brothers came out with their 'song' and was
>>>VERY surprised that it could be played on regular ol' radio
>>>stations.  When I was in HS and college a 'hose' was a  'penis' and a
>>>'hoser' was a guy who used his 'hose' as often as he could with the gals.
>
>>How could it be otherwise? "Hose" for "penis" is an obvious metaphor and I
>>heard it repeatedly in the 1960's ... although it was not one of the more
>>frequent terms in this application. "Hose" as a verb equivalent to the
>>F-word or "lay pipe" was more frequent. "I've been hosed" and "You [stupid]
>>hoser" are very transparent euphemisms, I believe.
>
>>Perhaps the Toronto newspaper just published the half-dozen non-obscene
>>etymological suggestions which arrived, and discarded the hundreds of
>>letters which expressed the majority [and correct] interpretation?
>
>~~~~~~
>
>  I remember hearing "hoser" frequently on CBC radio in the late 70s & early
>80s and being puzzled by it, but its contexts suggested only slight
>rudeness, not indecency or obscenity.  I wasn't aware of the US usage, so
>had no association with it, but it was used so freely in Canadian talk,
>that I think their gloss *was* different. While Canadian airwaves are not
>Bowdlerized to the extent ours are -- "fuck" & "shit," &c., are not bleeped
>-- still, context marked this as a milder expression.
>A. Murie
>
Maybe "hoser" is like "suck" (cf. Ron Butters's work arguing that
that one isn't really obscene either in current use).

Larry


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct  2 17:09:14 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:09:14 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.130914.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031002/34a3c5b3/attachment.htm>

From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Oct  2 17:39:39 2003
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:39:39 -0500
Subject: mistakes were made
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.123939.0500.>

In case anyone collects examples of passive voice used to avoid
responsibility, I post the following excerpt from an email about a
maintenance problem leading to a lack of water:

NOTES WERE POSTED ON THE BATHROOM DOORS, UNFORTUNATELY IT WAS OVERLOOKED
TO SEND OUT A EMAIL MESSAGE.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Oct  2 18:47:41 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:47:41 -0400
Subject: Julekake (1938)
In-Reply-To: <14a.24b8b8d4.2cacef16@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.144741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Barry, but now we need a recipe!  (I have one somewhere, of
course.)  And the K in Knutsen IS pronounced, unlike the transformed Newt
Rockne.

At 11:01 PM 10/1/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>JULEKAKE
>
>    Beverly Flanigan wanted me to do better with "julekake."  The TORONTO STAR
>has a nice cooking column, so I've done better--by two months!
>
>
>    7 October 1938, TORONTO STAR, pg. 30, col. 6:
>    The Hutzelbrot which Nancy had served to her club proved such a success
>that other members of the group said, "Why don't we make some more of those
>good rich fruited breads?  We can practise up ahead for Christmas.  But
>after all
>I don't see why we have to wait for the holidays to have something so good."
>    It was Mrs. Knutsen who served them with a Norwegian Christmas bread
>called Julekake.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 21:20:32 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:20:32 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Hoser=20(1981)?=
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.172032.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Connie Eble so sensibly points out in her book on slang, there is no way
of knowing the etymologies of many such slang terms, especially those with
possibly "obscene" connotations. Frequently, all that can be said is that a term
has a number of possible origins.

Even a term that starts out as perfectly innocent may well be interpreted as
having sexual connotations, particularly if it is used pejoratively and is
used by young people. My work on the history of SUCK points out that SUCK was
used in various perjorative constructions for years without much thought being
given to its having sexual connotations. Only after fellatio itself became a
much less taboo topic did SUCK constructions become suspect, particularly in the
construction "X sucks" (a youth phenomenon of the 1970s that has stuck). Older
people objected all during the 1970s and 1980s and even into the 1990s that
this construction "must" be obscene.

I remember a similar situation in my childhood with "brownie points," a term
that was used to refer to the intangible results that one received for favors
one did for someone in power. Many people who used this term believed that
they were referring to the good deeds done by junior girl scouts. Others thought
it was related to the term "brown-nose," which they believed had to do with
applying one's nose to someone else's butt. I never could figure out why one
would get "points" for putting one's nose in such a place, but it certainly is a
powerful image, nonetheless--enough to sour me on the phrase "brownie
points"at a very early age.

It is not hard to imagine all sorts of non-obscene origins for a pejorative
term HOSER, but it seems to be natural for some people to assume that something
sexually suggestive is going on when they hear a new slang term.


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Oct  2 23:50:38 2003
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James Stalker)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:50:38 -0400
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195038.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan wrote:

> I had always assumed that being 'hosed' was military slang, deriving
> from the term 'hose down' meaning to spray machine gun fire into an
> area (I don't have a reference for this but I'm pretty sure it was
> used at least as far back as WW II).  Certainly having one's computer
> hosed means having it destroyed, and while that is an extended meaning
> for 'fucked', I think my alternative is at least possible.  I'll buy
> the alternative, sexual, interpretation for 'hoser', however.
>
> Geoff

Flexner, in Listening to America, lists "hoseman" in a fire brigade from
1825 (p. 223), which would tie in with the military usage.

<The Scots Dialect Dictionary> (compiled by Alexander Warrack, 1911) has
an intriguing possibility which requires some phonological and
morphological adjustment, and perhaps a bit of folk etymology.  A
variant of "hose/hosen" is "hoshen" defined as 'a footless stocking' but
also as 'a bad, pithless worker' (p. 272).  A Scots source for a
Canadian term seems possible.

Jim Stalker.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  2 23:52:57 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:52:57 -0400
Subject: Sauerkraut Pie (1925); Summer 2003 APS Online additions
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SAUERKRAUT PIE

   Not a great part of the American cuisine, but hey, I just gave the Canadians "pablum."


   5 January 1926, TORONTO STAR, pg. 3, col. 2:
   _BOOST SAUERKRAUT PIE_
_Already Has Many Devotees in Parts_
      _Of Windy City_
   Special to The Star by United Press
   Chicago, Jan. 5.--When Jack Dempsey starts training for his next fight, you may see this:
   "Jack Dempsey likes sauerkraut pie, because it is rich in vitamines."
   Sauerkraut pie is a new one--the latest wrinkle in domestic science.  The recipe for sauerkraut pie has just been published by the national kraut packers' association.
   "Sauerkraut pie," announces Roy Irons, Clyde, Ohio, secretary of the kraut packers and inventor of the new viand, "is not only a delicious dessert, but is rich in vitamines."
   Sauerkraut pie first appeared in Chicago--at North Turner Hall.  It was a riot.  Then it swept the loop.  Sauerkraut pie a la mode became a mania.
   The recipe for the new dish follows:
   "Prepare rich pie dough thicker than usual.  Put in the kraut.  Pour the grease from a couple of slices of bacon over the kraut.  Cover the pie with dough.  Then coat the crust with the yolk of a beaten egg.  Bake and serve hot."

---------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMER 2003 APS ONLINE ADDITIONS

   Still no CHICAGO TRIBUNE, still no PUCK.
   It's October, time to look ahead to those Summer 2003 APS Online additions.  For the record, here they are (from the current APS NEWS):


Titles being loaded during Summer 2003 include:


The American Law Review (1866-1906)
          Major journal edited by Oliver Wendell Holmes, among other esteemed            lawyers

McBride's Magazine and Lippincott's Magazine (1868-1915)
          Publishing-house organ that featured the likes of Henry James and Oscar            Wilde

The New-Yorker (1836-1841)
          Founded by Horace ("Go west, young man") Greeley, later a            candidate for president

Puck (1877-1918)
          Leading satirical magazine of its time famous for cartoons

Vanity Fair (1859-1863)
          Witty and well-illustrated; doomed by its mocking of the Union cause



Titles coming in Fall 2003 include:


Liberty (Not the Daughter but the Mother of Order) (1881-1908)
          Radical journal supporting anarchy and progressive causes

Musical Visitor (1883-1897)
          Entertainment journal that included famous songs of the day

St. Nicholas; an Illustrated Magazine for Young Folks (1873-1907)
          Beautifully illustrated and including pieces by Louisa May Alcott, Robert            Louis Stevenson, and Mark Twain. Reputedly the first mass-publisher             of the "Pledge of Allegiance."


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Fri Oct  3 00:59:21 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 19:59:21 -0500
Subject: Hoser (1981)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.195921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Similar usage but not at all considered off-color:  the practical shooting
community uses "hoser" for someone who shoots very fast, a "hoser stage" is
a stage set up with targets so close that the shooter doesn't need to use
the sights, both possibly coming from the slang term "bullet hose" for
certain submachineguns.  This sort of naturally leads into the (ineffective)
gun fight style known as "spray and pray" epitomized by the periodic news
report that a particular crime shootout had the police firing multiple tens
of shots with the offender/decedent being hit once or twice.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct  3 01:43:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:43:51 -0400
Subject: Underworld Lingo (LA TImes, 1931)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.214351.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now up to December 31, 1933.  Still no "tinsel town" or "Cobb salad."  We're getting close to "Oscar" and "Shirley Temple cocktail."
   I don't know if this article was picked up by the HDAS.  I'll type just the definitions, but a sentence follows that uses each term in context.


   Underworld "Lingo" Brought Up-to-Date
BEN KENDALL. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1931. p. K3 (2 pages)

_Gangsters have an Esperanto_
   _all their own_

(...)
   A
ALKY:  Straight alcohol.
ALLEY CAT:  A private watchman.
AIREDALE:  A special guard.
ANGLE:  A plan; a lead.
APPLE-KNOCKER:  A yokel; a blunderer.
   B
BANG:  A tip off; information.
BAT:  A woman of the streets.
BENDER:  A thief; cheater; petty.
BLISTER:  Same as bat.
BEEF:  Complaint.
BLOW DOWN:  TO modify; to soften; to quash.
BOILER:  Moonshine still.
BIT:  A share.
BREEZE:  To depart.
BROTHER-IN-LAW:  A man who has two women of the street working for him.
BUG:  A burglar alarm.
BUILD:  TO work up a confidence, or a pretended friendship.
BUZZER:  A badge.
BOOSTER:  A shoplifter.
   C
CANNON:  A pickpocket.
CASES:  The last few dollars.
CONNECTION:  An understanding; an agreement.
CHIV:  A knife.
CHISELER:  A petty grafter; a borrower; a price cutter.
COOKER:  Moonshiner.
CUT:  Same as bit.
CREEPER (creep joint:)  A bawdy house.
   D
DOG-HOUSE:  In disfavor.
DROPPER:  Professional killer; machine gunner: a sure-shot gunman.
   F
FAN:  To search.
FIN:  A five dollar bill.
FINGER:  To accuse.
FOG:  TO shoot.
FRONT:  TO lead the way; to assume blame.
FRITZED:  Out of business; ruined.
   G
GEETUS:  Money, bankroll.
GO:  To come to terms; to agree.
GLOM:  Steal; to take.
GIG:  A dance hall sheik.
GOLDFISH:  Third degree; a police beating.
GUN MOB:  A pickpocket trio.
GREASE:  Trouble, blame.
GRAND:  One thousand dollars.
GOW:  TO catch; to jail.
   H
HAY-WIRE:  Mental aberration.
HEAT:  Same as grease.
HEATER:  A gun.
HEIST:  To hijack; to rob a liquor shipment.
HOOD:  Hoodlum; a petty gangster.
HOT:  Wanted by the police; stolen goods; watched.
   I
IN:  On the inside of a deal; influence.
IT:  Death.
   J
JAM:  Same as grease; trouble.
JACK-ROLL:  To rob a drunk, or sleeping man.
JALOPPY:  Automobile.
JIGGABOO:  Negro.
   K
KEESTER:  A traveling bag.
KICK:  Pockets.
KICK-BACK:  A return of money; a boomerang.
KLINK:  To hit with a black jack, or butt of a gun.
KLUCK:  A boob; a no-good.
KNOCK-OVER:  A raid.
   L
LAM:  To flee.
LEAN:  To strike with the fist.
LEFT-TURN:  A blunderer.
LOOGAN:  A minor hoodlum; a satelite; a helper.
LUG:  A stupid fellow; a hanger-on.
   M
MAKE:  To obtain; covetous; to seek unethically.
McCOY:  Real Bourbon whisky.
MEAT-WAGON:  Ambulance.
McGIMPER:  A man who lives on the earnings of a woman of the streets.
MICKEY FINN:  Knock-out powders.
MIDDLE:  A compromising position; holding the bag.
MUSCLE IN:  To force one's way in for a cut on the profits of a venture.
(Continued on Page Sixteen)
   N
NAILED:  Caught, trapped; arrested.
NANCY:  An effeminate fellow.
NEEDLED:  Near beer, or a beverage into which alcohol or ether has been injected.
NUT:  A debt; the cost; credit.
   O
OFFICE:  Signal.
ON THE SPOT:  Marked for death, or vengeance.
OUT:  An excuse; an alibi.
   P
PAT POKE:  A wallet carried in the hip pocket.
PAY-OFF:  Protection money; monetary tribute.
PLANT:  To produce fraudulent evidence.
POWDER:  To depart; to flee.
PROWLER:  A burglar; one who searches stealthily.
   Q
QUILL:  Genuine whisky.
QUIM:  Anybody's sweetheart.
   R
RACKET:  Any questionable business, or undertaking.
RAP:  An accusation.
RIB:  To influence; to goad.
RIDE:  The fatal journey.
ROCKS:  Diamonds.
ROSCO:  A pistol.
RUN-AROUND:  Deceit; double-cross.
   S
SAP:  A black-jack.
SCREWY:  Crazy.
SCRAM:  Leave; get away; move.
SETTLED:  Imprisoned in the penitentiary.
SHAKE:  Extortion; forced tribute.
SHAG:  Hurry; hustle.
SPILL:  Railroad station.
SPRING:  To release from jail.
STASH:  A hiding place for loot.
STIR:  Pentitentiary.
STALL:  Pickpocket who distracts victim's attention while confederate works.
   T
TAKE:  Share.
TOMMY:  A hand machine gun.
TORPEDO:  A machine gunner; a gnagster bodyguard.
TOPPED:  Hanged.
TUMBLE:  To get wise; understand.
TWIST:  A girl.
   U
UP AND UP:  Square; legitimate.
   W
WHITE:  Gin; alcohol.
WIRE:  The skilled pickpocket who actually extracts the money.
WING-DING:  A fit; berserk.
WRONG:  One who will not confederate.
WORKS:  A beating; third degree; rough treatment.
   Y
YEN:  Desire.
YENTZ:  Outsmart; defeat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct  3 03:39:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 23:39:11 -0400
Subject: Bacon, Tomato, Lettuce (1931); Taquito, Taco, Menudo (1924, 1931)
Message-ID: <THU.2.OCT.2003.233911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BACON, TOMATO, LETTUCE

   Add this "BTL" to the continuing "BLT" studies.


   Display Ad 43 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 30, 1930. p. A8 (1 page):
2 DELICIOUS SCHOOL DAY
SANDWICHES THAT CHILDREN
CAN MAKE FOR THEMSELVES
   By Alice Adams Proctor
BACON, TOMATO, AND LETTUCE SANDWICH.  2 slices Wonder-Cut Bread (buttered): 4 strips cooked bacon: 2 slices tomato: 2 leaves crisp lettuce: mayonnaise, if desired.
   Place between buttered Wonder-Cut slices, lettuce, 2 slices of tomato and bacone.  This sandwich is excellent toasted, too.
PRUNE, CREAM CHEESE, AND LETTUCE SANDWICH...
   WONDER-CUT BREAD
Continental Baking Co.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TAQUITO, TACO, MENUDO

   OED has 1929 for "menudo."  I produced a lot of "menudo."  Was that my earliest?


   ROMANCE OF CITY SPARED
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 8, 1924. p. A1 (1 page):
_ROMANCE OF CITY SPARED_
_Barbacoa and Chili Menudo Still May Be Served to_
   _Mexicans from Plaza Carts, Council Decrees_
(...)
      TYPICAL SCENES
   The vending wagons in question appear about sunset along the curb near the Old Baker Block.  They are replicas of the booths found around the plaza of every Mexican town, and are tended by blanketed men and women who cry their wares with musical cadence.  One may sup on barbacoa, that gruesome delicacy of a roast sheep's head, or taquitos, chopped meat and pepper wrapped in a tortilla and fried.  The booths are open from sundown to the "Madruga," or false dawn, when the laborers of ditch or ranch come to get their big bowls of menudo, that peasant breakfast dish of stewed tripe, washed down with black coffee.  There is much red pepper in each of these dishes, giving that stimulating effect so much prized by the "gente baja" but which would give acute indigestion to those of nicer tastes.
(...)


   Do You Know That...
Raul Rodriguez. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 17, 1931. p. K7 (2 pages):
(First Page--ed.)
   The tortilla is principally bread, but it is the foundation for many dishes.  An enchilada is nothing but a tortilla with chopped meat and other things rolled up in it.  A taco is a tortilla folded over meat and vegetables and toasted a little.  One of my fondest recollections is of the days when we kids used to improvice tacos at the table at home.
   We would lay a tortilla on the tablecloth, spread a couple of spoonfuls of fried rice on it, garnish it with frijoles, roll it up and go to it.  As we squeezed the top of the taco in biting it, rice and beans would drop out the bottom.  Then mother's knuckles would descend on the crown of the offender, and we would receive a general lecture on table manners.
   Fried tortillas--fried in lard, not butter--are crisp, delicious brown morsels.  They taste just like big cakes of pop corn and make the ideal companion for a good "tamal" or a plate of "frijoles refritos."
   I am glad that so many little awning-stands have sprung up on the Paseo.  Somehow a taco or an enchilada eaten out in the open tastes a little better than the same dish served on a tablecloth--for all that the "senorita's" eyes remind me of summer evenings in Mazatlan.  Then besides, there is the "menudo," which should never be eaten under any roof but a canvas one.
      _Menudo Con Corridos_
   Menudo is a particularly delicious type of soup made out of chicken giblets, which are called in Spanish "menudos."  Other things go into the broth, not the least of which is a dash of chili.  I recall that in that quarter of Nogales known as El Ranchito, a great many menudo stands flourish.  This is because El Ranchito is abundant in "cantinas" and cabarets, and menudo is the world's best restorative after the kinds of an evening one spends in El Ranchito.
   I don't know how they operate on El Paseo, but in Mexico the menudo shops stay open till all hours.  You sit down shivering on the benches before the stand, begin to take your menudo, and anon come a couple of guitar players who start singing for you.
(...)


(There are your first LOS ANGELES TIMES tacos.  "Taco salad" awaits--ed.)


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Oct  3 10:46:49 2003
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:46:49 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.064649.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know when the phrase "healthy skepticism" (or "healthy
scepticism") first entered the language? Lexis has a New York Times cite
from 1973, but I imagine it's quite a bit older than that.

Thanks.

Paul


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Oct  3 13:00:14 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:00:14 +0100
Subject: Murphy's Law gets Ig Nobel award
In-Reply-To: <034001c3899b$a66ccbf0$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.140014.0100.>

The Ig Nobel people are certain where Murphy's Law came from, even if
Messrs Popik, Cohen and others are not.

Last night they awarded an Ig Nobel prize (for an achievement which
"cannot or should not be reproduced" -- discuss) to "The late John
Paul Stapp, the late Edward A. Murphy, Jr., and George Nichols, for
jointly giving birth in 1949 to Murphy's Law, the basic engineering
principle that 'If there are two or more ways to do something, and
one of those ways can result in a catastrophe, someone will do it'
(or, in other words: 'If anything can go wrong, it will')".

See http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Oct  3 15:40:14 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:40:14 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.114014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a quote in the Michigan site for Making of America with a date of
1879.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Fri Oct  3 18:16:34 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:16:34 -0700
Subject: this one got past my filter
In-Reply-To: <p04310106bba12773e232@[131.151.65.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.111634.0700.>

this spammer is

        (1) earnest yet completely illiterate, or
        (2) aware of the recent discussion re scrambling some letters in a word,
yet making it understandable, or
        (3) aware of Bayesian spam filters, and knows how to get through
        (4) all of the above
        (5) none of the above.

Well, here's my chance for a PhD from Havrad Universtitee ;)

cheers !

Vida.

(my spell-checker will want to work on this email message, I just know it)

=========================

From: "bimaljit lagzdins" <uqolzmansour at cisqehazelis.com>
To:
Subject: Xq furture of your dreams  crj
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 19:21:44 -0300

Diploma Porgram

Crtaee a more prospuroes future for yruoself

Recviee a flul diploma form non accrtdieed
univesrities based upon yuor real lfie expireence

You wlil not be tested, or intevriewed
Recevie a Master's, Bechalor's or Doctorate

Clal 24 huors a day 7 dyas a week

1 - 2 7 0 - 8 1 7 - 8 2 4 7


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Oct  3 20:14:26 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 16:14:26 -0400
Subject: Just heard on NPR
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.161426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"We're in a tailspin downwards."

Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion or
mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?

Has any been collecting mixed metaphors for the Usage Panel?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Fri Oct  3 21:12:46 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 22:12:46 +0100
Subject: Just heard on NPR
In-Reply-To: <E1A5WKD-0003LC-Lw@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.221246.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barnhart wrote:

> "We're in a tailspin downwards."
>
> Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion
> or
> mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?

When my dog goes into a tailspin he goes in circles, but remains
parallel to the floor!

:-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct  4 02:53:50 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 21:53:50 -0500
Subject: Just heard on NPR (it was a blend)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.OCT.2003.215350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:14 PM -0400 10/3/03, Barnhart wrote:
>"We're in a tailspin downwards."
>
>Can a tailspin go any way but downwards?  Is this perhaps a confusion or
>mingling of _downward spiral_ and _tailspin_?
>
>Has any been collecting mixed metaphors for the Usage Panel?

   This isn't a mixed metaphor but rather a syntactic blend (yes, from
"tailspin" + "downward(s) spiral"). For other examples of redundancy
produced by blending, cf. "rise up" (from "rise" + "get up"), "chase
after" (from "chase" + "run after"), "few in number" (from "few" +
"low in number"), "consult with someone" (from "consult s.o." +
"speak with s.o."), "full up" (from "full" + "filled up"), "pass by
(e.g. a house)" from "pass the house" + "walk by the house."

    I present these examples in my article "Contributions To The Study
of Blending," in _Etymology and Linguistic Principles_, vol. 1:
_Pursuit of Linguistic Insight_, which I edited and published,
pp.81-94. (The above examples appear on p. 89). -- Btw, although
self-published, this volume has received favorable scholarly reviews.

    I also published a monograph _Syntactic Blends In English Parole_ (178 pp.),
(= Forum Anglicum, vol. 15). Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang 1987.  ---
"Parole" in the title is used as the linguist Saussure did, i.e., to
indicate anything that is not part of the standard language
(dialectal features, slips of the tongue, individualisms, etc.). The
monograph presents some 2000 examples of syntactic blending that I
collected over a period of years.  The main insight that emerges from
the list (or, at least, I intended/hoped would emerge) is that
syntactic blending is a feature of speech that occurs more frequently
than has been recognized in the literature of general linguistics).

Gerald Cohen


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 05:29:32 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:29:32 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "honcho" (1945)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.012932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W uses 1955.  OED uses 1947(hancho).

In the Coshocton (OH) Tribune from September 1, 1945, there is a photo of
the commandant of the US POW camp on Guam and a Japanese POW passing him.
The caption is:

    In the best Japanese tradition, a prisoner of war on Guam greets Lt.
Harold F. Gannon of Brooklyn, commandant of the camp, with a so-humble bend
from the waist, accompanied, no doubt, by the traditional hiss of politely
indrawn breath.  This prisoner is the "honcho," or group headman, in the POW
stockade.  Navy photo. (International)


I found the same photo with caption in a Michigan paper four days later.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 05:39:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 01:39:22 EDT
Subject: Manhattan slang (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.013922.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   An enjoyable slang article, from Ancestry.com.


   9 October 1936, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 8,
col. 8:
_Trails on Broadway_
_With George Ross_
   NEW YORK.--The Manhattan linguist is not a product of a School of
Languages.  He is a slang expert.  He must know pidgeon English, TImes Square prattle,
ball park banter, Tin Pan Alley lingo and the strange argot of Madison Square
Garden.  For each of Gotham's coteries has a tongue of its own.
   This is the fantastic jargon of the soda jerkers: "Axle grease" is butter,
"pin a rose" is to place a slice of onion on a hamburger, and a "midget from
Harlem" is a small chocolate soda.  "One on the city" is a request for a glass
of water, "toast two on a slice of squeal" is ham and eggs and a "George
Eddy" is the chap who leaves no tip.
   Who is "George Eddy"?  "Probably some guy," one of the soda dispensers
told me, "who came in every afternoon a long time ago for a 'twist it, choke it
and make it squeal'--and never dropped a dime."  A "twist it, choke it and make
it squeal" is a plain, ordinary egg malted milk!
--------------------------------------------
   The town's taxi-drivers have a tongue which baffles even the most talented
Manhattan interpreters.  The taximeter is a "glom," a "rip" is a call that
averaged over two dollars and a "howcase" is the label handed to a new
conveyance.  If a driver gets an order from a dreamy-eyed couple to drive them around
the park he tells his confreres that he had a "mugger rip."  The decrepit,
wheezing cabs which rattle along the city's streets are known as "tin fannys."
And if you happed to climb into a cab manned by a particularly talkative pilot
there is some comfort in knowing that the boys in the profession would dub him
"a coffee-pot lawyer"...
   Even the salesgirls in this town have developed a jargon of their own.  A
"B. H." is a bargain hunter, and "the reds" are those customers who argue with
a salesgal to a point bordering on exhaustion.  A shopper who unfolds her
life story while purchasing a pair of stockings or a handkerchief is known as
"Gabby Gertie," and "a sub-deb" is a little old lady who wears junior miss sizes.
 When the department buyer heaves into view, the girls behind the counter
have their own conversational code to tip-off their co-workers--simply "the Queen
Bee is coming."...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Up around the Yankee stadium and the Polo grounds, slang is a finely
developed art.  And yet the boys in the grandstand and those down on the base-paths
 each speak a set of phrases that is totally different.  To a baseball fan, a
scratch hit can mean but one thing, but to the fellows in uniform it can be a
"nubber," "blooper," "bleeder" or "squib."
   The man with the score-card calls a left-handed pitcher "a south-paw," but
the ball players themselves would more than likely call him "cockeyed,"
"twirly thumbs" or "corkscrew."  A "sugarbrush" is a rookie, and a good curve ball
is "a sugar handle."  Ballplayers never speak of a "beanball" or "dusting
so-and-so off."  With them it's "sticking it in somebody's ear."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
   But leave it to Broadway to spawn the most bewildering and colorful
contributions to Manhattan's collection of slang.
  For example: an actor is a "MacAvoy" when he steals bows, a "short con" is
a small time moocher, and all piano players are "organ grinders."  When a
stage director says the spotlight on the feminine per- "spot the doll" he means
"throw former." (A word missing here?--ed.) "Laying an egg" means that a show or
entertainer flops badly; and an acrobat has to go through life with the tag
"kinker" attached to him.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 06:59:54 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 02:59:54 EDT
Subject: Manhattan slang (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.025954.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The same article appears (uncut?) in NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), 6 October
1936, pg. 4, cols. 7-8.  I'll type some additions, found at the end of the
article.  From col. 8:

   With them it's "sticking it in somebody's ear."
   But leave it to Casey Stengel, the managerial genius of the doddering
Dodgers, to concoct the game's latest bit of idiom.  To Casey a fly-ball is a "can
o' corn."  Why?  Casey doesn't know himself.  (HDAS has Jan. 11, 1937 for
"can of corn"--ed.)
---------------------------------------------
_Theatrical phrases_
   But leave it to Broadway to spawn the most bewildering and colorful
contributions to Manhattan's collection of slang.
   For example: an actor is a "MacAvoy" when he steals bows, a "short con" is
a small time moocher, and all piano players are "organ grinders."  When a
stage director says "spot the doll" he means "throw the spotlight on the feminine
performer."  "Laying an egg" means that a show or entertainer flops badly;
and an acrobat has to go through life with the tag "kinker" attached to him.
   "Carrying the torch" is now--via Hollywood and the radio--familiar to
everyone but it's one of Broadway's oldest slang terms.  And when you hear a press
agent tell a companion that "they're shooting deer in the joint," he's
referring to the wide open spaces bereft of customers in the theater he's
exploiting.
   A newcomer isn't a greenhorn; he's a "Johnny-Come-Lately" and a "a luby"
is a dunce or clumsy performer.  Whern a Broadwayite is feeling low he's "got
the weeps."  The word "hot" along the roaring forties can mean a number of
things.  If a man is "hot" the odds are two to one he'll be shot before the week
is out.  When merchandise is "hot" everyone knows that it has been stolen--and
yet the sweetest compliment you can bestow upon a trumpeter is to tell him
he's "hot."
   Erudite debunkers of Broadway slang insist that most of it has been
adapted from convict jargon, and that it has arrived in the vicinity of Times Square
via Sing Sing, Dannemore and San Quentin.  But tell that to a loyal
Broadwayite and he's likely to retort: "Can that stuff, or I'll put the finger on you.
Now scram!"


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Oct  4 12:51:20 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:51:20 +0100
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.135120.0100.>

A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?

He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain?t over until the
Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
finally defeated until the session was adjourned.

Your comments will be most welcome ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct  4 14:31:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 10:31:09 -0400
Subject: Healthy skepticism
In-Reply-To: <034001c3899b$a66ccbf0$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.103109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, Paul McFedries wrote:

> Does anyone know when the phrase "healthy skepticism" (or "healthy
> scepticism") first entered the language? Lexis has a New York Times cite
> from 1973, but I imagine it's quite a bit older than that.

Here's a still earlier one:

1876 William Elliot Griffis _The Mikado's Empire_ 83  Under their
influence, and that of circumstances, have been shaped the unique ideals
of the samurai; and by it a healthy skepticism, amidst dense superstition,
has been maintained.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct  4 14:40:23 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:40:23 -0500
Subject: "herring-broth" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.094023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A while back, George Thompson shared with ads-l an 1807 incident in
which an Irish woman reacted furiously to a request for herring
broth. I wrote up the brief ads-l discussion of this matter in draft
form, and now some additional comments have come from an Irish
Studies group.
      Those comments may be of interest to ads-l, both because of the
herring-broth matter itself and because of the terms "herringchoker,"
"herron", "mackerel snapper," and "Two-boaters."  I have been unable
to get to the library for the past week and am therefore unaware what
DARE et al. may have to say about them.
     The new comments appear below my signoff. First, though, my
thanks go to John Morgan and the Irish Studies discussion group for
their assistance. When the article appears (in two months?) I'll be
happy to provide a complimentary copy to the Irish Studies
participants. (It's co-authored by George Thompson and me, with due
credit given throughout).

Gerald Cohen
editor, Comments on Etymology


[recently added to draft of article on "herring broth"]:

        John Morgan notified the Irish Studies discussion group
(irishstudies at lists.services.wisc.edu) about the 1807 'herring-broth'
incident and soon received several insightful replies:

1) from Carmel McCaffrey (cmc at jhu.edu): 'Actually, as a native Irish
person I know that broth was always the food of poor people who just
boiled or
simmered bones and the like into a broth.  In Dublin there is an
expression to describe the eating habits of the poor "your dinner's
poured out."'

2) from Jim MacKillop (pmackkillop at yahoo.com): '..."herringchoker" is
an archaic insult for my own ethnic group, the Scottish Gaels (mostly
Catholic, former Jacobites) of Nova Scotia.  It has been so
ameliorated that the abbreviated form, "herron," is now a term of
rough affection.  More significantly when my father migrated to
Boston c. 1923, "herringchoker" was a term of derision used by Boston
Irish, who considered themselves a cut above, for the New World Gaels
of Nova Scotia.
        'In other contexts, "herringchoker" has also denoted poor
Scandinavians.'

3) from Catherine Shannon (CBS38 at aol.com): 'Re: herring issue--I too,
born and bred near Boston, recall the use of the term "herringchoker"
to denote those who came down to the area from the Canadian
Maritimes.  Jim is correct that the implication was that they weren't
quite as Irish as we were who had parents and grandparents who came
directly from Ireland to Boston.  There was also another term
suggesting a bit of smug superiority over those "Irish" who came from
the Maritimes---they were referred to as "Two boaters." Does anyone
else recall that usage?
        'Mackerel snapper was a term of derision that applied rather
broadly among the lower echelons of WASP Boston to all the local
RC's.  Too bad our television age and pc'ness has made our language
less graphic and imaginative in some respects.'
        [G. Cohen: In the last paragraph, Catherine Shannon is
replying to Jim Doan's e-mail: 'I'm just guessing, but could it be
comparable to calling someone a "mackerel snapper," one of the few
anti-Catholic terms of derision I remember from my youth?  In other
words, he [of the 1807 article] made an immediate assumption that the
couple were Irish, therefore Catholic (and fish-eating), as well as
presumably of a lower socioeconomic level than the individual who
entered the apartment.' ----- John Morgan then added: 'I do know that
herring and mackerel are the fish ordinaire in Ireland.']


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Oct  4 16:05:05 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:05:05 -0400
Subject: Manhattan slang
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.120505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry quotes:
 When a
stage director says the spotlight on the feminine per- "spot the doll" he means
"throw former." (A word missing here?--ed.)
~~~~~~~~~~
Just a case of misplaced lines in a narrow column:

When a stage director says
"spot the doll" he means "throw
the spotlight on the feminine per-
former"

A. Murie


From philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct  4 16:34:09 2003
From: philip.cleary at VERIZON.NET (Philip E. Cleary)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 12:34:09 -0400
Subject: "herring-broth" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.123409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<Jim is correct that the implication was that they weren't
quite as Irish as we were who had parents and grandparents who came
directly from Ireland to Boston.  There was also another term
suggesting a bit of smug superiority over those "Irish" who came from
the Maritimes---they were referred to as "Two boaters." Does anyone
else recall that usage?>

I don't, strictly speaking, recall the usage of "two boaters," but I do
remember that my Boston born and bred father (himself the grandson of a two
boater) once told me about the expression. I don't remember if he said it
was used in his youth (early 20th c.) or if he was referring to the usage of
a prior generation.

Phil Cleary


From degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Oct  4 18:16:01 2003
From: degustibus14 at YAHOO.COM (degustibus)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 11:16:01 -0700
Subject: retrosexual
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.111601.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two versions of retrosexual

1.  New Yorker cartoon: He's more of a retrosexual.
(Woman to another about her untidy husband watching
TV.)
http://www.cartoonbank.com/assets/1/68276_m.gif

2, Slangsite.com:
Retrosexual, reterosexual: A person, of either sex,
who is convinced that sex was better in the good old
days, even if she hadn't actually been born back then.

Example: Every time I see that picture of Marilyn
Monroe with her skirt blowing above her thighs in _The
Seven-Year Itch_, I start feeling retrosexual.
http://www.slangsite.com/slang/R.html

(3. Name of a band.)


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct  4 20:25:36 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:25:36 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.162536.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Hop, Two, Three, Four: Frog-Marching Into the Lexicon 
By David Montgomery
Washington Post  1 Oct 
http://tinyurl.com/pq77

  Linguists are loving it. Wayne Glowka, chairman of the New Words Committee for the American Dialect Society, was waking up to CNN yesterday when he heard "frog-marched out of the White House," and he scribbled it down. "Frog-march" will be a candidate for the society's annual list of new or newly prominent expressions, he says. 

  [Jesse Sheidlower, principal North American editor for the OED,] says "frog-marched out of the White House" could even make the revised edition now being assembled.

Se?n Fitzpatrick
Upper Darby, PA 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 21:30:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 17:30:51 -0400
Subject: Natural State (Arkansas) (1975)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.173051.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Natural State"--a nickname of Arkansas--is not in the revised OED.  There are 37,200 Google hits for "Natural State" and "Arkansas."
   "Wonder State" was the official Arkansas nickname from 1923, deriving from the state's "natural wonders."  It's little wonder that a change was made.
   I ran across this while looking for some digital materials for Arkansas...Just wondering: Does this mean that everything that comes out of Arkansas is natural?


(GOOGLE)
http://www.50states.com/bio/nickname1.htm
Arkansas
 Officially known as ???The Natural State???, Arkansas is known throughout the country for its natural beauty, clear lakes and streams and abundance of natural wildlife.
source: http://www.sosweb.state.ar.us/aboutark/


(WORLDCAT)
Arkansas is a natural :
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Corp Author(s):
Arkansas. Dept. of Parks and Tourism.?

Publication:
Little Rock, Ark. : The Department,

Year:
1970-1979?

Description:
1 sheet : ill., map ; 43 x 56 cm. folded to 22 x 10 cm.

Language:
English

SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:
Recreation areas -- Arkansas.?

Class Descriptors:
 Dewey:  333.78

Other Titles:
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Document Type:
Book


(WORLDCAT)
Title:
20 exciting destinations in the natural state of Arkansas.

Corp Author(s):
Arkansas. Dept. of Parks and Tourism.?

Publication:
[Little Rock,

Year:
1975

Description:
col. map; on sheet 44 x 56 cm. fold. to 22 x 10 cm.; Scale ca. 1:1,600,000.

Language:
English

Standard No:
LCCN: 75-695720

SUBJECT(S)

Geographic:
Arkansas -- Maps, Tourist.?

Note(s):
Title from verso./ Relief shown by shading./ Includes indexes to points of interest and text./ Descriptive text on 20 points of interest, location maps, and col. illus. on verso.

Class Descriptors:
 LC:  G4001.E635 1975; Geographic: 4001

Material Type:
Published map (pcm)

Document Type:
Map


(WORLDCAT)
Follow your senses to the natural state--Arkansas.

Publication:
[Little Rock, Ark. : Tourism Division, Arkansas Dept. of Parks and Tourism,

Year:
1976

Description:
[26] p. : col. ill., maps (part fold.) ; 22 cm.

Language:
English

SUBJECT(S)

Descriptor:
Recreation areas -- Arkansas.?

Geographic:
Arkansas -- Description and travel.?

Note(s):
PA 218.8: F 6/ Cover title./ Includes a map of state parks, information on park facilities and a  list of regional tourist associations.

Document Type:
Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 22:26:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:26:43 -0400
Subject: Topeppo (1934)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.182643.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CORRECTION:  The "BTL" article (previous post) I headed "1931" was 1930, as it was in the text.  I copy directly the ProQuest header so I can't get that wrong.


   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at the end of June 1935.  Keep going!  I need my Caesar Salad and Margarita and California Roll!
   This is of interest to you tomato people out there.


      THE TOPEPPO
       ROSS H GAST.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 18, 1934.                   p. I10 (1 page):
   Curing recent weeks I have had several requests for information on the "topeppo," quite commonly believed to be a cross between the pepper and the tomato.  There has been a considerable amount of controversy on this vegetable, which is a variety of pepper with extremely heavy flesh.  The name "topeppo" was given it by a salesman.  It is a native of Mexico, I understand, but I do not know the Mexican name.  The topeppo is an excellent salad pepper and a very dersirable addition to any garden, but no one should plant it in anticipation of securing a "cross between a tomato and pepper."   ROSS H. GAST.


(Wouldn't that be a "topper"?--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 22:57:07 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:57:07 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.185707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since the HDAS cites "frog" as a British term for a policeman from
1857/1859, and "Frog's March" from 1871 and later, why do we assume that the
term implied being marched like a frog instead of being marched BY frogs?
SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fitzpatrick" <grendel.jjf at verizon.net>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"


Hop, Two, Three, Four: Frog-Marching Into the Lexicon
By David Montgomery
Washington Post  1 Oct
http://tinyurl.com/pq77

  Linguists are loving it. Wayne Glowka, chairman of the New Words Committee
for the American Dialect Society, was waking up to CNN yesterday when he
heard "frog-marched out of the White House," and he scribbled it down.
"Frog-march" will be a candidate for the society's annual list of new or
newly prominent expressions, he says.

  [Jesse Sheidlower, principal North American editor for the OED,] says
"frog-marched out of the White House" could even make the revised edition
now being assembled.

Se?n Fitzpatrick
Upper Darby, PA


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:33:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:33:48 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.193348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED (now on "n') add it?
   Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!



      OKLAHOMA AND OAKIE SAME THING
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 25, 1929.                   p. B11 (2 pages):
_OKLAHOMA_
_AND OAKIE_
_SAME THING_
_Comic Derives Name from_
_Home State; Now Plays in_
_"Fast Company"_
   Jack of all trade--master of no particular one--but what a lot of fun he has!  In other words, Jack Oakie, Paramount's playboy, the secret sorrow of at least half of the scrren's fair damsels and the despair of directors.  He was born in Sedalia, Mo., reared in Indiana and Oklahoma and blessed with a comedy complex which enables him to portray sailor roles, play baseball, football and the calrinet, all in the order named.
   In order to dispel any illusions at the start, let it be known that Oakie is not his real name.  When he packed the toothbrush and spare collar and sought his fortunes in New york City. he was dubbed "Oaklie," in honor of the former residence in Oklahoma.  But "Oaklie" was too difficult and the title became "Oakie."  It stuck.  He is now Jack Oakie, and anyone is privileged to try and find out his real name.
(...)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:37:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:37:43 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.193743.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   On second thought, the article fudges.  It's not "Oaklie" because that's too difficult to say.
   It's "Oakie" and not "Oaklie" because he's not a girl who can't say no.
   There's no business like show business like no business I know.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct  4 23:41:31 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:41:31 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.194131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Of course, his read name was Lewis Delaney Offield.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)


 He is now Jack Oakie, and anyone is privileged to try and find out his real
name.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 00:54:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:54:39 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.205439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and "hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post should read "During," not "Curing."



      "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
   Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled the "original hokey-pokey man."


      SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
       Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
_SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
_He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey_
   _Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
      _Special to The New York Times._
   BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here to-day of heart disease.
   Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."


(If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his middle initial?--ed.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 01:08:33 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:08:33 -0400
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
In-Reply-To: <28CCF044.6396CEDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.210833.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED
> (now on "n') add it?
>    Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are
> stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!

"Oakie" is in HDAS, with a 1918 citation.  With the spelling "Okie," it's
in OED and probably the other dictionaries as well.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:13:32 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:13:32 -0700
Subject: (Jack) Oakie and Oklahoma (1929)
In-Reply-To: <28CCF044.6396CEDE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.181332.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    "Oakie" is not in DARE or the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS.  Will OED (now on "n') add it?
>    Please add it.  It'll help me find out where the grapes of wrath are stored.  The truth is (frog) marching on.  Glory, hallelujah!

I've never seen the "a" spelling before.

"Okie" (and we're OK!)

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:22:59 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:22:59 -0700
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <4A5621FF.5F8970B4.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.182259.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and "hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post should read "During," not "Curing."

>       "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
>               The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
>    Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled the "original hokey-pokey man."

>       SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
>        Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
> _SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
> _He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
>       _Special to The New York Times._
>    BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died at his home here to-day of heart disease.
>    Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."
>
> (If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his middle initial?--ed.)

I searched "hokey pokey" and "Samuel Dunham" and, just like Barry sez,
found nothing. Messin' around with the search terms, though, I found
this: <http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html>

"It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after
first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth
century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration. By 1850,
Italian vendors called "hokey-pokey" men made their way through the
streets of the city selling the chilled sweet stuff from small wagons
that were pulled by goats."

Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sun Oct  5 01:35:27 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:35:27 -0400
Subject: Natural State (Arkansas) (1975)
In-Reply-To: <347EEAC5.01D0D102.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.213527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I lived there, Arkansas's slogan was "Land of Opportunity."

(It was.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:43:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:43:50 -0400
Subject: "Pie a la Mode" originator? (1936)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.214350.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   How do I find these things?...It's not totally unknown, but there aren't more than a handful of hits for "Townsend" and "pie a la mode."
   I do not say that the following is correct.   OED has "pie a la mode" from 1903.



      CHARLES W. TOWNSEND
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1936.                   p. 23 (1 page):
_CHARLES W. TOWNSEND_
_Cambridge, N. Y., Man Credited_
_With Originating Pie a la Mode._
   CAMBRIDGE, Mass., May 20 (AP).--Charles Watson Townsend, one-time concert pianist, who, tradition has it, inadvertently originated pie a la mode here fifty-two years ago, died today in Mary McClellan Hospital.  His age was 87.
   As the story goes, he amazed waiters in a local hotel by asking for ice cream on his pie.  He like it so well he ordered it on another occasion in Delmonico's restaurant in New York.  The restaurant then added the dessert to its menu.
   The Hotel Cambridge here specializes in the dish and points out the table at which Townsend was dining when he created it.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.cambridgehotel.com/pie.html
        The History of Pie a la Mode

        (Reprint from Sealtest Magazine)
 With Apple Pie a la Mode holding such a special niche in the taste of the American public, it is appropriate at this time that we turn to historians long enough to record for prosperity the origin of this delectable delicacy of the day.

We have it that the late Professor Charles Watson Townsend, who lived alone in a Main Street apartment during his later years and dined regularly at the Hotel Cambridge, now known as the Cambridge Hotel, was wholly responsible for the blessed business.

One day in the mid 90?s, Professor Townsend was seated for dinner at a table when the late Mrs. Berry Hall observed that he was eating ice cream with his apple pie. Just like that she named it "Pie a la Mode", and we often wondered why, and thereby brought enduring fame to Professor Townsend and the Hotel Cambridge.

Shortly thereafter the Professor visited New York City, taking with him a yen for his favorite dessert new name and all. At the fashionable Delmonico?s he nonchalantly ordered Pie a la Mode and when the waiter stated that he never heard of such a thing the Professor expressed a great astonishment.

"Do you mean to tell me that so famous an eating place as Delmonico?s has never heard of Pie a la Mode, when the Hotel Cambridge, up in the village of Cambridge, NY serves it every day? Call the manager at once, I demand as good service here as I get in Cambridge."

The manager came running, and the Professor repeated his remarks.

"Delmonico?s never intends that any other restaurant shall get ahead of us" said the manager and forthwith ordered that Pie a la Mode be featured on the menu every day. A newspaperman representing the New York Sun was seated at a nearby table and overheard the conversation. The next day the Sun carried a feature story of the incident and it was picked up by many other newspapers. In no time at all, Pie a la Mode became standard on menus all over the country.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 01:51:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 21:51:11 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.215111.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While the obit says Mr. Dunham originated the "hokey-pokey or ice cream
brick," many of the ancestry hits I"ve found from 1890-1900 strongly say
that the "hokey-pokey" was what we know today as a "snow cone" or "shave
ice."   The OED cites are unclear.

I'll post more as I find it.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Towse" <self at TOWSE.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)


> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Another ProQuest discovery.  A Google search of "Samuel Dunham" and
"hokey pokey" turns up nothing...TYPO ALERT: The previous "topeppo" post
should read "During," not "Curing."
>
> >       "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead.
> >               The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.:
Oct 9, 1907.                   p. 11 (1 page):
> >    Burlington, N. J., Oct. 8.--Samuel A. Dunham, an aged citizen and
originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died
at his home here yesterday from heart disease.  Dunham laid by a snug
fortune before imitators spoiled his trade.  He took pride in being styled
the "original hokey-pokey man."
>
> >       SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD.
> >        Special to The New York Times..       New York Times
(1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1907.                   p.
11 (1 page):
> > _SAMUEL F. DUNHAM DEAD._
> > _He Was the Inventor of the "Hokey Pokey" or Ice Cream Brick._
> >       _Special to The New York Times._
> >    BURLINGTON, N. J., Oct. 7.--Samuel F. Dunham, an aged citizen and
originator of the now widely popular "hokey-pokey," or ice cream brick, died
at his home here to-day of heart disease.
> >    Dunham conceived the idea of selling ice cream in cake form for a
penny and laid by a snug fortune before imitators broke into his trade.  He
lived, however, to see the business he invented become a great industry, and
took just pride in being styled "the original hokey-pokey man."
> >
> > (If the WASHINGTON POST is going to steal the article from the NEW YORK
TIMES and not give any credit, can't we at least be consistent with his
middle initial?--ed.)
>
> I searched "hokey pokey" and "Samuel Dunham" and, just like Barry sez,
> found nothing. Messin' around with the search terms, though, I found
> this: <http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html>
>
> "It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after
> first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth
> century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration. By 1850,
> Italian vendors called "hokey-pokey" men made their way through the
> streets of the city selling the chilled sweet stuff from small wagons
> that were pulled by goats."
>
> Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
> Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
> men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?
>
> --
> Sal
>
> Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
> terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 02:09:01 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:09:01 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <3F7F7273.1000507@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.220901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
>Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
>men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?

Why is it thought that "hokey-pokey" referred to ice cream long before Sam
was born?

(1) When was Sam born?

(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about 1880?

The quotation about the Italians and goats is apparently from a 2002 book.
Is the information verifiable?

-- Doug Wilson


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sun Oct  5 02:28:44 2003
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:28:44 -0700
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031004214908.025911d0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.192844.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

>> Hokey-pokey and ice-cream were linked terms long before Sam was born.
>> Question is: Why were the Italian ice-cream vendors called "hokey-pokey"
>> men? Because their goats were recalcitrant?
>
>
> Why is it thought that "hokey-pokey" referred to ice cream long before Sam
> was born?
>
> (1) When was Sam born?

According to the ref: 1877.

The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.

> (2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
> 1880?

"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
the Italian ice-cream peddlars. Check

<http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hokey-pokey%22+%22ice+cream%22+italian>

> The quotation about the Italians and goats is apparently from a 2002 book.
> Is the information verifiable?

Ah, I'm a bit of an amateur. I defer to the Shapiros &al. on the list.

The term "hokey pokey" for the Italian ice cream vendors "is thought to
have derived" from the Italian "ecco un poco" (here's a bit /or/ try a
sample -- rather than the usual etymological derivation from the same
roots as hocus-pocus.

The Italian vendor references (both USAn and Brit) can be found in Web
sites from hither and yon and *not* in the identical language, which is
what usually twiddles my "oh yeah?" antennae as a clue that there's
copying-n-pasting and probably not much of substance going on.

Before today, I only knew of the hokey-pokey in a left-foot-in and
right-foot-out universe.

Et vu?

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: 4K+ links for writers, researchers and the
terminally curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 02:46:00 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:46:00 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
In-Reply-To: <3F7F81DC.8070301@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.224600.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>(1) When was Sam born?
>
>According to the ref: 1877.

I think this is erroneous. The quotation reports his death as an "aged
citizen" in 1907, right?

>The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.

Can one pre-1877 citation be provided?

>>(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
>>1880?
>
>"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
>the Italian ice-cream peddlars.

OED shows "hokey-pokey" referring to ice cream (1884-5). I find "hokey
pokey man" in the desired sense from late 19th century but I take this as
approximately "ice cream man", with "hokey pokey" = "ice cream
[product/novelty/item]".

No reason "ecco un poco" or so couldn't be the origin ... of course altered
to "hokey-pokey" to match the pre-existing English phrase, = "hocus-pocus"
apparently. Evidence is lacking though AFAIK.

But again: is there evidence of use of the expression for ice cream OR
vendor before 1880 or so? [Maybe there is, I don't know. Current OED for
example is not available to hoi polloi. (^_^)]

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 03:47:01 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:47:01 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.234701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think Doug is correct.  Using Ancestry.com, I found no cites from
1860-1886 in any context discussing ice cream.   But an 1887 cite is
interesting:

>From the Statesville(NC) Landmark, June 30, 1887, p. ?, col. 4,
   Titled "OUR NEW YORK LETTERS"

     Down town on the narrow streets where the crowds press sunstrokes
happen.  The Ice cart is a cool thing and in some of the poorer parts of the
city it is looked for as eagerly as the mail train at a country station.
Little dirty-legged children run after it, gather about it when it stops and
when the iceman breaks off a big lump scramble for the chips  The small boy
is never so happy as when he can steal a ride on the ice cart, unless,
indded, it is when he can buy "hokey-pokey" ice cream.  Hokey-pokey ice
cream is manufactured and sold by the Italians.  Its composition is a
mystery.  It is hawked about the streets in freezers on little hand-carts
bearing the legend in fantastic letters, "Hokey-Pokey Ice Cream."  The small
boy, by hook or by crook, obtains a cent and makes for that cart.  The
Italian removes the top of the freezer, dips up a dab of parti-colored ice
cream with a large spoon and serves it on a bit of brown paper.  The small
boy takes two or three little bites at it, then licks it all up and sucks
the paper.

And another cite, from the Bangor(ME) Daily Whig and Courier, June 6, 1891,
p. 1, col.  4

     The Italian "hokey pokey" cart which has appeared here in Brewer in
summers past, was yesterday again upon the streets.  The gong attached to it
sounds so nearly like the electric car gongs, that at least one person and
probably more, was deceived by it, and hastened to catch the car, which was
nowhere in sight.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)


> >>(1) When was Sam born?
> >
> >According to the ref: 1877.
>
> I think this is erroneous. The quotation reports his death as an "aged
> citizen" in 1907, right?
>
> >The Italian ice-cream vendor references pre-date 1877.
>
> Can one pre-1877 citation be provided?
>
> >>(2) Can the term "hokey-pokey" for ice cream or so be found before about
> >>1880?
> >
> >"hokey-pokey" wasn't a reference to ice cream, but was a reference to
> >the Italian ice-cream peddlars.
>
> OED shows "hokey-pokey" referring to ice cream (1884-5). I find "hokey
> pokey man" in the desired sense from late 19th century but I take this as
> approximately "ice cream man", with "hokey pokey" = "ice cream
> [product/novelty/item]".
>
> No reason "ecco un poco" or so couldn't be the origin ... of course
altered
> to "hokey-pokey" to match the pre-existing English phrase, = "hocus-pocus"
> apparently. Evidence is lacking though AFAIK.
>
> But again: is there evidence of use of the expression for ice cream OR
> vendor before 1880 or so? [Maybe there is, I don't know. Current OED for
> example is not available to hoi polloi. (^_^)]
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 04:40:08 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:40:08 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <3F7ED058.32049.E0BC1A@localhost>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.004008.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:51 PM +0100 10/4/03, Michael Quinion wrote:
>A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
>inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
>recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
>He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
>at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
>at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
>lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain?t over until the
>Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
>finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
>Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
>--

Mike,

This was a question I posed to the list a few years ago, and below
are the responses I got.  Southern stories seem to be very much in
evidence, but no opera singers at Texas legislative sessions...

Larry
==============

Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:04:07 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      a seasonal query

(for any season including both an impeachment trial and a Super Bowl...)

Can anyone help pin down the origin of the expression frequently cited in
sports contexts, and occasionally elsewhere, that "It ain't over till the
fat lady sings", used as a warning not to count one's victory chickens
until they've hatched?  Since I've also heard this in what I assume is the
full form, "The opera ain't (or isn't) over till the fat lady sings", I
assume a possibly apocryphal story along the lines of some sports buff
attending an opera (probably a football or basketball coach dragged there
by a spouse) who imagines that the evening must be drawing blessedly to a
close, only to realize the force of the above generalization. Fans can now
be seen on occasion holding up posters depicting a Wagnerian soprano in
full coloratura mode once the crucial field goal has been thrown in the
basket or kicked through the uprights by the home team.  And while I doubt
such posters will be held up at the Met any time soon, I wouldn't be
surprised to hear the same sentiment dripping from the lips of a Republican
senator or House "manager" sometime in the next couple of days.  In fact a
quick scan of Nexis includes a citation in which a financial speculator
comments that "the fat lady hasn't sung yet", i.e. all possibilities are
still open.  But who was the first to capture the allusion and unleash it
on a previously unwitting sporting world?  (I'd look it up, but I'm not
sure where or how.)

Larry

P.S.  I'm NOT looking for the semantically related Yogi Berra-ism, "It
ain't over till it's over", although it would be interesting to confirm
that it really did originate with Yogi and not before.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:51:09 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

This expression originated in Southern proverbial lore.  The key evidence
is a 1976 booklet entitled _Southern Words and Sayings_, which has an
entry, "Church ain't out 'till the fat lady sings."  There is an excellent
discussion in Ralph Keyes, _Nice Guys Finish Seventh_.  Keyes reports
several informants who recalled hearing the expression for decades before
it burst into national consciousness during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff
series.  One of the informants said "he never was quite sure what this
saying referred to, but thought that it 'was tied to the perception of
those like me who don't know much about opera that when the fat lady
sings, the opera's about to end.'"  On the other hand, the use of "church"
in the earliest known printed citation suggests the possibility of an
origin not specifically tied to opera.
==================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:54:12 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

My last message may not have really answered the question as to who
unleased the "fat lady" on the sports world.  Bullets coach Dick Motta,
who popularized the slogan during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff series,
got it from _San Antonio Express-News_ sportswriter Dan Cook.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:12:35 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

WHEN A CHURCH AIN'T A CHURCH (AND A SCHOOL AIN'T A SCHOOL NEITHER)

Not necessarily Fred. In my basketball playing days (and even after), the
phrases "School is out" and "Church is out" referred to "intense periods of
play or feverish activity in a game (or even in a fight), when the
participants tried their hardest." Such phrases were even used as
encouragment to fellow players. "OK, school's out. Let's get in there and
kick ass." It seemed also (as my invented routine suggests) to indicate
that any "delicacy" was about to be discarded.

This might be the "church" referred to in the 1976 quote, not making it
into print until long after the height of my basketball career (50's).

dInIs (the jump-shooter)
=======================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:29 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Alice Faber <faber at lenny.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Fat Lady Singing

I've always associated the phrase "the opera ain't over til the fat lady
sings" with Abe Lemons, who was coach of the University of Texas basketball
team in the mid-70s, when I was a graduate student there. I have vivid
memories (perhaps spurious!) of a stack of books by or about Lemons
on display in the Co-op (which, in Austin, is a di-syllable!)
featuring somehow the phrase "fat lady" in the title.
==========================


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sun Oct  5 04:57:28 2003
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 23:57:28 -0500
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SAT.4.OCT.2003.235728.0500.>

 >Date:    Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:51:20 +0100
 >From:    Michael Quinion <TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG>
 >Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?

 >A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
 >inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
 >recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?

 >He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
 >at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
 >at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
 >lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain?t over until the
 >Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
 >finally defeated until the session was adjourned.

There are many strange stories about the Texas legislature, particularly
toward the end of a session.   Some of them are true; but this doesn't
fit the pattern of the true ones.

At the end of the session, the legislators are in a rush to get
everything over with quickly.  Some rather strange things have passed;
for example, a resolution honoring someone for  his work in combatting
the population problem.  (Most of the legislators weren't familiar with
his name.  He was better known as the Boston Strangler.)

Having an opera singer perform would've delayed the legislators, it
seems to me.  And the Texas Legislature has never been known for its
cultural refinement.

If this was true, I would expect the _Almanac of American Politics_ to
have mentioned it at least once.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct  5 07:19:51 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 03:19:51 EDT
Subject: "Pie a la Mode" (Fork? Spoon?)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.031951.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From Ancestry.com.


   27 May 1936, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 1 editorial:
      _PIE A LA MODE._
   Surely no list of great American inventors is complete without the name of
Charles Watson Townsend, father of pie a la mode, who has passed away in New
York Stste at a great age.  It is to be regretted that the original creation,
due to its perishable nature, is not available for the Smithsonian Institution
or some kindred agency.
   We believe the luncheon clubs and all kinds of citizens who gather at noon
in an atmosphere of good fellowship and chicken croquettes followed by apple
pie with a top dressing of ice cream, will see the propriety of paying tribute
by a moment of silence at their next meetings to the memory of a benefactor.
To the best of our knowledge, it was never officially settled whether pie a
la mode is played with the spoon or fork or both, though common preference
seems to lean to the fork alone.  In any event, millions of his fellow men are
indebted to Mr. Townsend for lending flavor--usually vanilla--to their daily
lives.


   29 August 1963, Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada), pg. 7, cols. 3-5:
_Pie a la Mode Invention_
_Of American Restaurants_
   CAMBRIDGE, N.Y. (UPI)--Pie a la mode is as American as baseball or the
Virginia reel but its origin eludes those not aware of this small community in
the Adirondack foothill.
   In 1896, a music teacher, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, regularly
concluded his dinners at the Hotel Cambridge with the combination of apple pie
and ice cream.
   When Mrs. Berry Hall, an employee at the hotel first saw the creation, she
gasped, "pie a la mode."  The name was acceptable enough to Townsend, who
wasn't fussy as long as his favorite dessert was served.
   Later that year at fashionable Delmonico's restaurant in New York City,
Townsend requested "his" dessert.  When the waiter disclaimed knowledge of "pie
a la mode," Townsend was astonished and then indignant.  He called the manager
and described how a little hotel in Cambridge, N.Y. regularly served the
dish.
   With Delmonico's reputation at stake, the flustered manager ordered "pie a
la mode" featured on the daily menu.
   A reporter from the old New York Sun overheard the conversation and the
emergence of "pie a la mode" was told in a feature story in the daily the next
day.  Other newspapers across the nation followed suit and the dessert was soon
a household standby.
   Why did the phrase "a la mode" become so quickly associated with a mound
of ice cream on a slice of pie?  A Wagner College history professor noted that
"a la mode" was used widely in the 1890's to describe anything extremely
fashionable.
   A few persons are aware of the origin of the term.
   Walter Gann, present owner of the Hotel Cambridge, said his sister was
listening to a phone-in-the-answer quiz program in New York when the dessert's
birthplace was asked.  She telephones within three minutes only to be told some
200 listeners had already called in the correct answer.
   Gann credits much of  Cambridge's national notoriety to Roy Shoet, who has
been the radio and television announcer at nearby Saratoga Raceway for many
years.  During the winter months, Shoet broadcast from California and
frequently mentioned the birthplace of "pie a la mode" on a network.
   In addition, Cambridge is a fashionable resort which had catered for many
years to well-traveled guests who spread its reputation throughout the globe.


(She gasped "pie a la mode"?  Actually, Berry Hall saw the ice cream on the
apple pie and gasped, "That's one small step for man..."--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 18:19:28 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:19:28 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas? (and
 Ancestry.com)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.141928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael,

I've spent the last four hours on Ancestry.com and searched the following
phrases(one year at a time):
church lady sings  1960-1978
fat lady sings 1940-1979
it ain't over 1960-79
opera's not over    1960-79
church ain't out    1950-79

It just ain't there.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Quinion" <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


> A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
> inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
> recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
> He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
> at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
> at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
> lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain't over until the
> Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
> finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
> Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
> --
> Michael Quinion
> Editor, World Wide Words
> E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
> Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Oct  5 18:40:44 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:40:44 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.144044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

John Baker


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Oct  5 18:43:30 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:43:30 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAC0@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.144330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Baker, John wrote:
>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
>jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
>precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that
>a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one
>or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by
>another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the
>fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which
>presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback
>collection, is the origin of the phrase.

I'd say the reverse; the joke plays on a pre-existing catch-phrase.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 19:01:18 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:01:18 -0400
Subject: The 1903 OED cite for pie a la mode
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.150118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The  cite from OED is:

    1903 Everybody's Mag. VIII. 6/2 Tea and buns,..apple pie ?  la mode and
chocolate were the most serious menus.

How do we know that the pie had ice cream on it?  Is there more to the cite
that talks about ice cream?

My reason for askng is that the first cite anywhere which actually mentions
ice cream on the pie is from the 1920's.

Not that I doubt it.  It makes sense.  But show me the ice cream.

SC


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Oct  5 19:13:47 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:13:47 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.151347.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, of course I can't say for sure which came first.  But the catchphrase must have come from somewhere, and its wording is certainly suggestive of a hillbilly joke (a genre that used to be far more popular than it is today, particularly in traditionally hillbilly areas like Kentucky (where I bought the booklet).  The original joke, by the way, was funnier than is my stark retelling of it; I wanted to make sure that I didn't introduce any anachronistic elements in trying to restore its humor.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Alice Faber [mailto:faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU]
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 2:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


Baker, John wrote:
>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
>jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
>precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that
>a group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one
>or more of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by
>another of their group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the
>fat lady sings."  It seems likely to me that this joke, which
>presumably had currency before and beyond the thin paperback
>collection, is the origin of the phrase.

I'd say the reverse; the joke plays on a pre-existing catch-phrase.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct  5 17:06:46 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 13:06:46 -0400
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
In-Reply-To: <001b01c38aca$d8460440$42631941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.130646.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Since the HDAS cites "frog" as a British term for a policeman from
>1857/1859, and "Frog's March" from 1871 and later, why do we assume that the
>term implied being marched like a frog instead of being marched BY frogs?

I've read only a few descriptions of the "frog's march" ... but it seems to
me that the usually preferred approach (not called "frog's march") involved
a cooperative prisoner being escorted by police officers or equivalent,
each man walking on his own (with or without some form of restraint). The
frog's march was required only if the prisoner was combative or
unable/unwilling to walk ... then he would be carried face-down by his four
limbs ... if he continued to struggle, I suppose he could be bounced off
the ground a few times or dragged through the dirt a little bit, without
releasing his limbs ... an uncomfortable exercise, especially for the
prisoner -- but also quite strenuous for the four men carrying him, no
doubt. The policemen would be "marching" the prisoner either way, so I
guess it's more likely that "frog" refers to the spread-limbed face-down
posture.

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct  5 23:51:58 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:51:58 -0400
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.195158.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once you find out which terms to punch into which boxes over at Ancestry,
you can fly.  It takes forever to tune up that suck-ass search engine,
though.

Using "pie mode" in place of "first name" and "second name," you come up
with a cite from 1895 from the Newark(OH) Advocate:

     There was a big sign in the window which read this way:

............................................................................
 .                 PIE A LA MODE,
                             10 Cents.
............................................................................

So Mr. Townsend and his consort, Ms. Berry Hall,  must have heard the term
from somewhere else, perhaps Ohio :)

I've not finished searching, but had to share the info found thus far.

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct  6 01:01:43 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:01:43 -0400
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating
 (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.210143.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I went back about another 10 years (1885) on Ancestry.  No other cites that
help.  But, after all, how early could you get a scoop of ice cream on your
piece of pie?

As an aside, many of the cites I found from 1895-1905 or so, used "peach
pie" rather than "apple pie."



I still want someone to find a cite that tells me that "pie a la mode" was a
piece of pie with a scoop of ice cream on top.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Ancestry destroys the "pie a la mode" legend. Antedating (1895)


> Once you find out which terms to punch into which boxes over at Ancestry,
> you can fly.  It takes forever to tune up that suck-ass search engine,
> though.
>
> Using "pie mode" in place of "first name" and "second name," you come up
> with a cite from 1895 from the Newark(OH) Advocate:
>
>      There was a big sign in the window which read this way:
>
>
............................................................................
>  .                 PIE A LA MODE,
>                              10 Cents.
>
............................................................................
>
> So Mr. Townsend and his consort, Ms. Berry Hall,  must have heard the term
> from somewhere else, perhaps Ohio :)
>
> I've not finished searching, but had to share the info found thus far.
>
> SC
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Mon Oct  6 02:14:49 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:14:49 -0500
Subject: No flies on ADS' response to "frog march"
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.211449.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not that I remember using the term, but when I was a cop (early 70s),
uncooperative prisoners were marched with hands behind them in handcuffs,
the controlling officer (one was usually adequate) restraining them by
holding the link between the handcuffs.  Cooperation was compelled by
lifting up and forward on the handcuffs.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>

I've read only a few descriptions of the "frog's march" ... but it seems to
me that the usually preferred approach (not called "frog's march") involved
a cooperative prisoner being escorted by police officers or equivalent,
each man walking on his own (with or without some form of restraint). The
frog's march was required only if the prisoner was combative or
unable/unwilling to walk ...


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct  6 03:30:55 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:30:55 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yegg."  (1900)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.OCT.2003.233055.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe that Barry is responsible for tracing this word back to 1903, the
current earliest dates used by both OED and M-W.  He did the work.

I just did the easier part, using his new-found tool, Ancestry.com, and
antedated it to 1900.

>From The June 28, 1900, Fort Wayne(IN) News, page  XXX?(Ancestry's images
are for SHIT), column 2:

     Their lingo is the language of the "yegg."  No other crook uses it, and
their phrases would be Greek to the average citizen.

I can give you two additional cites from 1900.  And more from 1901/02.  The
word was used both for a safecracker and a general criminal.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 06:43:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 02:43:10 EDT
Subject: Menudo (1904); OT: Food History News
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.024310.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MENUDO

   From PaperofRecord.com.


   25 September 1904, THE MEXICAN HERALD, pg. 9, col. 2:
_Peon Restaurant of City of Mexico:_
_"Square Meals" For From Two Cents Up_
(...)
(Col. 3--ed.)
   A loaf of bread, called "pambaz" or rather "pan bozo" made of common
flour, and about three inches long, is cut half lengthwise.  This loaf is hollow.
In the cavity is place (sic) a tablespoonful of this stew: a spoonful of chile
sauce poured over it; the other half loaf placed on top, and there you are
for three centavos.  No Anglo-Saxon, with eyes and an imagination--unless he is
nearly starved--can bolt that combination.
   There are other stands where only tortillas con carne are sold.
(...)
   Some of the better calsses of stands keep "tortas compuestas" which are a
kind of sandwich made of hogshead cheese, sausage, boiled ham, fried pork,
canned corned beef, chicken, etc.  These sell for from six to ten centavos each
according to the quality of the meat used in them.
(...)
(Col. 4--ed.)
   In eating houses they sell "panzita" or "menudo" mixed with boiled corn;
an ordinary sized plateful costs three centavos.
(...)
   Beef or mutton soup, about an ordinary sized teacup ful three centavos;
boiled rice mixed with fine cut chile, two centavos; guisado, a stew made of
meat and three or four kinds of vegetables, three centavos; boiled beans, two
centavos; chicken stewed in a dark mahogany-colored gravy, three centavos; boiled
beef and potatoes, three centavos; three tortillas one centavo or a small
loaf of bread, three centavos; a big glass of pulgue, two centavos.
   One can order the same dish as often as desired at the same price.
   In all fondas and even in good restaurants the famous "mole de guajolote"
is in the bill of fare every Sunday, and the sign "Rico Mole de Guajolote los
Domingos" is always visible either on the facade of the restaurant or on the
menu cards, if there are any.
(...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  FOOD HISTORY NEWS

   This--from the "Editor's Notebook" at FOOD HISTORY NEWS--got a knowing
grin from me:

http://foodhistorynews.com/notebook.html
October 1, 2003In this issue:Who is a food history professional?

Food history professionals? As some of us have mulled over the Food History
Symposium in Mississippi (see September 23 entry below...) the question has
come up about who is a food history professional. In fact, I have asked if there
are any. While a great many of the attendees and presenters are professionals,
and do food history, there is hardly anyone of the them who does food history
full-time for a living.

People ask me all the time how to become a food historian, and I always ask
them why would they want to be one? At the very best, I can think of only a
half dozen or so individuals who do food history for more than half of their
time. Almost all of us who work at this have some other means of support: a
profession like freelance writing, teaching, or museum work. We might have a
business like selling antiquarian cookbooks or culinary antiques. Some of us have
pensions or private wealth. Some have supportive and employed spouses. I can
think of only four or five of us who actually try to make our living at food
history, and I am here to say, as one who tries to do so, it can scarcely be done.
The only reason I can come close is because of where and how I live which
is--very simply in rural Maine.

So I don't think there really are any professional food historians as much as
there are professionals doing food history, and I think it will be that way
for at least another ten to twenty years. I do think that eventually food
history will take its place with economic, military, architectural, etc. history,
and perhaps there will be some teaching positions in food history. There may
even be sufficient interest to give someone a job doing food history research
and writing for hire--that is, of course, the job I want. Right now, many food
history questions float in the realm of idle curiosity or in sound-bite service
to commerce. I don't much care were it is as long as people are getting more
and more interested all the time. But it isn't a living. If you are
fantasizing about being a professional food historian, keep your day job.


   Which is, of course, parking tickets.
   My cousin's husband--he of the two wonderful daughters--is also a lawyer.
He makes $600 an hour.  My co-worker commented:  "So?  That's only about $570
an hour more than we make."
   To earn as much as I've made from the "hot dog," he'd have to work...one
second.
   The Big Apple?  Six years ago, when "Big Apple Corner" passed into law, I
gave information to the New York Public Library and to the New York Historical
Society, and told them that I'd like to donate my money and my time to get
this on a city web site.  There was no response.
   After those two amazing "Big Apple" newspaper articles appeared about 40
days ago, I confronted the NYPL and N-YHS again last month.   The NYPL
librarian (who knew me, but obviously not my work) told me that my work, which had
been placed in the NYPL file, was missing from the NYPL file.  When I told him
that I'd passed a law, he said, well, do you have knowledge of every law?  I
didn't even receive an "I'm sorry." And I've never received a kind word from any
NYC institution, ever, to this day.
   Anyway, the FHN article sums it up the problem nicely.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 12:10:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:10:21 EDT
Subject: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.081021.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's country home.  The
bear was caught and transported a considerable distance in hopes that it would
"den up" and not return to David Letterman's neighborhood.

Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

       - James A. Landau


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Oct  6 16:53:58 2003
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:53:58 -0500
Subject: CA Prop. 54
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.115358.0500.>

Does anyone know whether Proposition 54 would affect sociolinguistic
research at public colleges in California?
This measure, which is on tomorrow's ballot, restricts the ability of
state agencies to classify individuals by race, ethnicity, etc. There
are exceptions for medical research, but what about social science research?
Some general discussion of the issue is at:
http://lao.ca.gov/initiatives/2003/54_10_2003.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct  6 21:10:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:10:38 EDT
Subject: Puke Politics (from California, not Missouri)
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.171038.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From California, of course.  No relation to Missouri ("the Puke State").
   It's made today's headlines.


(YAHOO NEWS)
L.A. Times Faces Anger for Schwarzenegger Coverage
Sun Oct 5, 1:02 PM ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The Los Angeles Times has had about 1,000 readers
cancel subscriptions and been "flooded" with angry letters, calls and e-mail
protesting its coverage of Arnold Schwarzenegger's alleged sexual harassment of
women, it reported on Sunday.

The newspaper has detailed allegations by a total of 15 women in three
front-page stories since Thursday against Schwarzenegger, touching off a controversy
that has consumed the final days of Tuesday's recall election in which the
actor and former Mr. Universe remains the front-runner.

Schwarzenegger, a Republican, has apologized in a general way for his
behavior toward women, while denying the most recent allegations carried by the
newspaper in stories on Saturday and Sunday.

He has also accused the Los Angeles Times of working with embattled incumbent
Gov. Gray Davis in a concerted campaign of "puke politics" aimed at derailing
his candidacy.
(...)



(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:rcman777%40excite.com+">RCMan</A> (<A HREF="mailto:rcman777%40excite.com">rcman777 at excite.com</A>)
Subject: #Fellow Dem Tells Grey-Out Davis: Stop the Dirty Campaigning!
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.society.liberalism">alt.society.liberalism</A>, <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=ba.politics">ba.politics</A>
Date: 2003-08-03 09:41:25 PST

Davis is told: No trash talk
By Gary Delsohn -- Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Friday, August 1, 2003
<A HREF="http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7141249p-8088520c.html">http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7141249p-8088520c.html</A>

Attorney General Bill Lockyer issued a stern warning to fellow Democrat Gov.
Gray Davis on Thursday: Run the kind of "trashy ...puke" campaign you did last
year and a lot of prominent Democrats willvote to recall you and give the job
to Republican Richard Riordan.Lockyer acknowledged in a 90-minute breakfast
interview with The Bee Capitol Bureau that Riordan has not yet declared his
candidacy.

But he said he expects the former Los Angeles mayor to run and thathe's been
"counseling" and "warning" Democratic campaign consultants that they'd better
steer clear of the type of personal attacks Davis has made in past campaigns.

"If they do the trashy campaign on Dick Riordan ... I think there are going
to be prominent Democrats that will defect and just say, 'We'retired of that
puke politics. Don't you dare do it again or we're just going to help pull the
plug.'

"There is a growing list of prominent Democrats that, if that's how
itevolves, are going to jump ship."

Asked if he'd be one of them, Lockyer, who has also come out againstthe
recall, calling it "unfair to Gray Davis and bad for the state,"said: "I don't
know."

Lockyer's comments infuriated Davis' longtime political consultant,"startled"
the Republican strategist who would likely manage Riordan's campaign and gave
rise to the notion that Democratic unity behind Davis may be crumbling.

About the same time Lockyer was making his comments, U.S. Rep.
LorettaSanchez, D-Garden Grove, who has been urging U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein to put her
name on the ballot, suggested she might enter therace.

"I would never rule anything out," Sanchez said in an interview with KCBS
television in Los Angeles. "It depends on how we are doing, andit depends on what
choices we have."

The attorney general and other statewide Democratic officeholders said weeks
ago they would not run in the recall election as potential successors to
Davis.

Lockyer talked in general terms about what he characterized as Davis' history
of running negative campaigns attacking his opponents'character and record.

But the attorney general zeroed in most specifically on Davis' role inthe
2002 Republican primary between Riordan and businessman BillSimon.

Simon was given little chance of winning when that contest began, so Davis
and Garry South, who ran Davis' last campaign for governor, put millions of
dollars into about a half-dozen television attack ads on Riordan, whom they
expected to be a tough adversary in the general election. The Davis ads accused
Riordan of changing his views onabortion and the death penalty. They also
portrayed him as someone voters couldn't trust.

Ahead of Simon 3-1 when the primary began, Riordan began a free-fallafter the
ads hit and never recovered.

Davis and Simon then engaged in an attack-mode fight of their own, with Davis
characterizing Simon as a naive millionaire determined to shield his business
record from the public and Simon hammering away at Davis as bought and owned
by special interests."

It was a puke campaign and I didn't like it," Lockyer said. "I think it's a
disservice to voters and the profession. I'm just tired of that stuff."
(...)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct  7 00:40:48 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:40:48 -0400
Subject: a la mode......Beef and ice cream
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.204048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, we've taken "pie a la mode" back to 1895.  I have no doubt that it goes
back farther.  But can anyone truly tell me what it was?

If  "beef a la mode" wasn't a piece of stewed cow with a scoop of tutti
fruti on top, then why was "pie a la mode" a piece of pie with a scoop of
ice cream on top?  How do we know that the pie didn't have cream poured over
it, and this was considered "in the manner?"  When did the ice cream become
the "mode?"  Any cites before 1920?


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Tue Oct  7 02:44:15 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 19:44:15 -0700
Subject: Pelota in California Politics
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.194415.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An article by John Simerman in yesterday's _Contra Costa [California]
Times_, "Woman wanted a word with Arnold," opened with:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/content_syndication/local_news/6937917.htm

MODESTO -Who was that woman in red?

And what's her connection with Arnold?

No one knows, it seems. But the sudden appearance of a woman at a
rally, pleading to speak to Arnold Schwarzenegger about a "very, very
personal" issue, threw a new pelota into the media scrum that forms
around a celebrity candidate.

(end quote)

I had not known the term before, but found that it's a synonym for
the sport jai allai and a word for the ball used in it. I suppose a
pelota into a scrum is faster than the traditional wrench in the
works.

A check of the web via Google turned up about 584,000 total hits for
the term; English results narrowed it to 21,400. Switching to Google
News generated only 13 unduplicated hits, of which one was a personal
name, one a place name, and the others apparently directly or
indirectly (via a movie title) related to the sport. None had the
transferred sense of the CCT article.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 03:12:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:12:46 -0400
Subject: Pie a la mode (1906?)
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.231246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For what it's worth, this "a la mode" selection if from the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database.



 Searching Entire Database for a la mode. Your search found 7 occurrences


 1. Smith, Margaret Bayard. "Letter from Margaret Bayard Smith to J. Bayard Smith, Febuary 25, 1829"
[Page  281 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

will not mix in society and the private parties given are uninteresting to strangers, because there are no Secretaries or public characters there-- Genl. Jackson and his family, being in mourning,  decline all company, so that a Party must be grave and sober, to be a la mode. The crowds of strangers who are here, having no drawing-rooms, no parties, or levees to atend, surge about guessing for news and spreading every rumour as it rises and every day gives rise to new rumours about the Cabinet. Last week it was considered certainly fixed--

 2. Ames, Blanche Butler. "Letter from Blanche Butler Ames to Sarah Hildreth Butler, May 31, 1863"
[Page  93 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

that it was a mistake, and that he has not been on.  I must now tell you about my dress, for the Distribution is not far off. The skirt must be trimmed, but how I know not. You have seen the latest styles and know what is the most appropriate for a white dress. The waist I shall have made a la mode garibaldi, and trimmed considerably, so it is necessary that the skirt correspond. You did not say anything about a white muslin underskirt. Of course I must have one, so please do not forget to send it. If you do not get me a travelling dress I shall be obliged to wear the grey dress

 3. Powers, Elvira J.. "Diary of Elvira J. Powers, December, 1864"
[Page  144 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

who said he "enjoyed the Christmas dinner the most, for there wasn't so much style about it." Very excellent oyster soup for the light diet was given each time. Twenty-one hundred pies were issued for dinner, seventy-one cans of oysters, with eighteen hundred pounds of beef a la mode, also four barrels of pickles.  But this must have seemed so like a mockery to one mourning wife who is here. Sergeant Don A. Clark, a very worthy man and Christian, who, Chaplain Fitch says, "has suffered more than any other two men ever in this hospital," died just after midnight.

 4. Huling, Caroline A.. "Letter from Caroline A. Huling, 1906?"
[Page  129 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

I also noticed that books and letters handled by her were soiled and sticky. After gently calling her attention to the matter several times without avail, I was obliged to dismiss her. She had simply formed a habit that had become her master and she lacked either desire or will to conquer it. Pie "a la mode" is another foolishness that I frequently see. Pie or ice cream alone may be all right unless too rich for the individual digestion, but in combination I view it with horror and would expect one who indulges therein at lunch to be nervous and fretful during the afternoon.

 5. Hale, Betty May. "Diary of Betty May Hale, May, 1937"
[Page  147 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

a last glimpse before going to see the church where Josephine was buried. That little church was Reuil and we passed over the Seine and through the Bois de Boulogne and past the Arc de Triumphe and down the Champs Elysee to Rue Rivoli where our hotel was. Almost immediately we started for Boeuf "a la mode" but it was closed so we went to Griffon a very nice restaurant where they had lovely lobster soup and then we went to bed only after exercising well.    Sunday, May 23, 1937   Today we went to Fontainebleau and the sun was shining

 6. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1944"
[Page  282 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

pie. You come immediately to the Navy office, sign your papers, and then you will have to hunt Ann. She's hiding out somewhere." Bang went the receiver! Needless to say, Minnie obeyed her master's command, but she didn't find Ann.  Minnie fed us a delicious dinner at 6:30. The blackberry pie a la mode was super-- Harry's favorite. The trials and tribulations of the day were forgotten by the time we said good-night and Ray returned us to the hotel. Mr. and Mrs. Floyd Hewitt of Boise also were dinner guests at the Shinns'.

 7. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, August, 1948"
[Page  347 |   Paragraph |   Section | Document]

of the Seattle M-K office, transported us to the Olympic Hotel and the men went to the M-K office. Surprise-- it's not raining! Ray picked up the Wilburs, Paul and us at 5:30 and we went to the Shinns' for dinner. The food was delicious and the dessert was Minnie Shinn's own famous blackberry pie a la mode. Had a pleasant evening visiting and Minnie returned us to the hotel at 10:30 P. M.    August 3   Breakfast at 6:30. Minnie and Ray picked up the Wilburs and us at the hotel at 7 A. M. Paul, Ellis and Marvin went to the airport


Results Bibliography
 Smith, Margaret Bayard, 1778-1844,  Letter from Margaret Bayard Smith to J. Bayard Smith, Febuary 25, 1829,  in The First Forty Years of Washington Society in the Family Letters of Margaret Bayard Smith.  Hunt, Gaillard.  New York, NY:  Frederick Ungar Publishing,  1906, pp. 424.  [Bibliographic Details] [2-25-1829] S74-D070

 Ames, Blanche Butler, 1847-1939,  Letter from Blanche Butler Ames to Sarah Hildreth Butler, May 31, 1863,  in Chronicles from the Nineteenth Century:  Family Letters of Blanche Butler and Adelbert Ames Married July 21st, 1870,  vol. 1.  Ames, Blanche Butler, comp..  Clinton, MA:  Privately published,  1957, pp. 719.  [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [5-31-1863] S332-D113

 Powers, Elvira J.,  Diary of Elvira J. Powers, December, 1864,  in Hospital Pencillings: Being a Diary While in Jefferson General Hospital, Jeffersonville, Indiana and Others at Nashville, Tennessee, as Matron and Visitor.  Boston, MA:  E.L. Mitchell,  1866, pp. 218.  [Bibliographic Details] [12-2-1864] S975-D007

 Huling, Caroline A.,  Letter from Caroline A. Huling, 1906?,  in Letters of a Business Women to Her Niece.  New York, NY:  R.F. Fenno & Company,  1906, pp. 313.  [Bibliographic Details] [1906] S7478-D013

 Hale, Betty May,  Diary of Betty May Hale, May, 1937,  in My Trip to Europe, 1937.  San Francisco, CA:  W. Kibbee & Son,  1938, pp. 315.  [Bibliographic Details] [5-1-1937] S1165-D003

 Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957,  Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1944,  in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days.  Boise, ID:  Em-Kayan Press,  1951, pp. 446.  [Bibliographic Details] [7-18-1944] S1105-D099

 Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957,  Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, August, 1948,  in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days.  Boise, ID:  Em-Kayan Press,  1951, pp. 446.  [Bibliographic Details] [8-1-1948] S1105-D109




Produced in collaboration with the University of Chicago.
 Send mail to Editor at AlexanderSt.com  with questions or comments about this web site.
 Copyright ? 2001 Alexander Street Press, LLC.  All rights reserved.
 PhiloLogic Software, Copyright ? 2001 The University of Chicago.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct  7 03:17:09 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 23:17:09 -0400
Subject: a la mode......Beef and ice cream
In-Reply-To: <005801c38c6b$a812cea0$42631941@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.231709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>So, we've taken "pie a la mode" back to 1895.  I have no doubt that it goes
>back farther.  But can anyone truly tell me what it was?
>
>If  "beef a la mode" wasn't a piece of stewed cow with a scoop of tutti
>fruti on top, then why was "pie a la mode" a piece of pie with a scoop of
>ice cream on top?  How do we know that the pie didn't have cream poured over
>it, and this was considered "in the manner?"  When did the ice cream become
>the "mode?"  Any cites before 1920?

I don't have any.

Mencken ("American Language", Supplement I, p. 399, note 2): "In an
Associated Press dispatch from Cambridge, N. Y., May 20, 1939 the invention
of _pie a` la mode_ was claimed for Charles Watson Townsend, who had died
there that day. The inspiration seized him, it was said, while dining at a
local hotel, _c._ 1887, and soon afterward he introduced the dessert to
Delmonico in New York."

Is the tale true? Timing might be right. At any rate Mencken fails to note
any protests from 1939 about this putative origin, and such protests would
likely have followed the AP story if "pie a-la-mode" had had a common
non-ice-cream-related meaning 20-50 years earlier (not a conclusive
argument, I fully concede).

The derived verb "[to] a-la-mode" = "[to] put ice cream on [pie]" was
mentioned in AS (1:292) in 1926.

Mark Twain mentions strawberry pie served with ice cream in "Innocents
Abroad" (1868) IIRC ... he didn't call it "a-la-mode" ... it was part of a
fanciful French table-d'h^ote ... conceivably an imaginary or actual French
origin of the combination was the inspiration for the name (my wild
speculation only).

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct  7 05:40:31 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:40:31 -0400
Subject: Mulletude redux
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.014031.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Pittsburgh paper:

http://www.postgazette.com/lifestyle/20031007mullet1007fnp3.asp

No mention of the term "Western Pennsylvania mudflap" here.

Mention of the OED ... although the edition referred to is not available at
the Pittsburgh public library at my last inquiry ....

-- Doug Wilson, Pittsburgh


From n0aaa at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG  Mon Oct  6 12:52:59 2003
From: n0aaa at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 07:52:59 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blends
In-Reply-To: your message of         Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:10:21 EDT.
 <200310061220.h96CKh901961@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <MON.6.OCT.2003.075259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hole up comes to mind before "build up"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 08:05:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 04:05:33 EDT
Subject: Break a Leg (1954, 1957)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.040533.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The HDAS, under "leg," has this from 1964.  See our prior discussion.
   The Yankees will play the Boston Red Sox.  I think it's time to end my
"Yankee curse" and wish the team "good luck."


   18 June 1954, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg. 4, col. 6:
_Director Is_
_Hurt During_
_Rehearsal_
   If old theater sayings are any indication of success, there's a great many
"breaks" in store for the Mountain Theater, rehearsing nightly for the
opening attraction of the sixteenth season, "Stalag 17."  The Braddock Heights
theater group experienced, its first, and they sincerely hope its last, "break"
last night.
   Among the many sayings for "good luck," you can hear actors whisper "neck
and leg break" to each other as the footlights dim and the curtain rises each
opening  nights.  Although "neck and leg break" sounds more like a call for a
wrestling arena, theatrically it means, "good luck."
   Stuart Vaughan, making his bow as the director for the Mountain Theater's
resident professional stock company this year, could have used some "good
luck" last night during the rehearsal for "Stalag 17" which opens June 23.  Mr.
Vaughan literally went out on a limb to prove the "good luck" saying.
   During one of the director's demonstrations of a funny piece of stage
business which occurs in the first act of the lusty comedy about GI's in a prison
camp, Mr. Vaughan, according to the script, was to jump up on a folding chair
and shout "at ease."  Mr. Vaughn jumped with great ease but before he could
shout his lines, the chair folded and he fell to the floor with a crash that
would make any sound-effects man green with envy.
   The director today wore a cast on his right leg and requested that no cast
member ask to autograph it.  For the remainder of the rehearsal period, he
will do no more demonstrations of funny business for his cast of twenty men.
   The actors of the "Stalag 17" company, meanwhile, are looking up new and
different opening night good luck sayings.  Somehow, no one seems to feel that
Mr. Vaughan would appreciated hearing "neck and leg break."


   29 May 1957, GETTYSBURG TIMES (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania), pg. 4, col. 8:
_Dancer Breaks Leg_
_In Fall Off Stage_
   PHILADELPHIA (AP)--In the theater, they say "break a leg" to an actor just
before he goes on stage, but it really means "good luck."
   Dancer Jean Williams was appearing in a musical at a tent theater near
Philadelphia recently and no one remembered the ritual as she went on.
   During a second act blackout, Jean tumbled into the orchestra pit.  She
broke her leg.


From cjc3esq at COMCAST.NET  Tue Oct  7 09:15:38 2003
From: cjc3esq at COMCAST.NET (Charlie)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 05:15:38 -0400
Subject: Pelota in California Politics
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.051538.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: "threw a new pelota into the media scrum "

Pelota in Spanish is just a generic term for ball, not a specific jai lai
term.  Scrum is a rugby term.  Was the author saying that there is now an
Hispanic twist to this political issue because the latest complaint comes
from an Hispanic woman?

Charles J. Cunningham

mailto:cjc3esq at comcast.net

Save the whales,
            collect the whole set.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John McChesney-Young" <panis at PACBELL.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 10:44 PM
Subject: Pelota in California Politics


> An article by John Simerman in yesterday's _Contra Costa [California]
> Times_, "Woman wanted a word with Arnold," opened with:
>
>
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/content_syndication/local_news/6937917.htm
>
> MODESTO -Who was that woman in red?
>
> And what's her connection with Arnold?
>
> No one knows, it seems. But the sudden appearance of a woman at a
> rally, pleading to speak to Arnold Schwarzenegger about a "very, very
> personal" issue, threw a new pelota into the media scrum that forms
> around a celebrity candidate.
>
> (end quote)
>
> I had not known the term before, but found that it's a synonym for
> the sport jai allai and a word for the ball used in it. I suppose a
> pelota into a scrum is faster than the traditional wrench in the
> works.
>
> A check of the web via Google turned up about 584,000 total hits for
> the term; English results narrowed it to 21,400. Switching to Google
> News generated only 13 unduplicated hits, of which one was a personal
> name, one a place name, and the others apparently directly or
> indirectly (via a movie title) related to the sport. None had the
> transferred sense of the CCT article.
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Oct  7 13:34:54 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:34:54 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
In-Reply-To: <200310051840.h95Iepu14665@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.093454.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Baker, John wrote:

>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
> jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
> precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a
> group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more
> of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their
> group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It
> seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before
> and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

Do you remember anything about the title of this joke collection?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Oct  7 13:47:31 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:47:31 -0400
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.094731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Sorry, no; it's been at least 20 years since I've seen it.  It was in booklet form, probably about 6" x 9", with cardboard covers, probably 24 to 48 pages.  All of the jokes had a hillbilly theme.  I can remember one or two of the others, but I guess that isn't terribly germane.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:35 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?


On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Baker, John wrote:

>         In the mid-1970s or so, there was a collection of hillbilly
> jokes (which I unfortunately no longer have and therefore cannot
> precisely date) that included this line.  The story's setup was that a
> group of hillbillies went to an opera.  At the intermission, one or more
> of the hillbillies started to leave but were stopped by another of their
> group, who said that "the opry ain't over till the fat lady sings."  It
> seems likely to me that this joke, which presumably had currency before
> and beyond the thin paperback collection, is the origin of the phrase.

Do you remember anything about the title of this joke collection?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alcockg at SRICRM.COM  Tue Oct  7 16:28:00 2003
From: alcockg at SRICRM.COM (Gwyn Alcock)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:28:00 -0700
Subject: SET NODIG NOMIME
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.092800.0700.>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031007/a518bb9e/attachment.htm>

From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct  7 17:08:24 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:08:24 -0400
Subject: "Hokey Pokey" Originator Dead (1907)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.130824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Towse" writes, citing target="l">http://www.littlebookroom.com/historicshopsNY.html
""It didn't take New Yorkers long to acquire a taste for ice cream after first lady Dolley Madison popularized it early in the nineteenth century, when she served it at her husband's inauguration.""

This seems to be another erroneous food legend.  New Yorkers were eating ice cream before the Madison administration.  See the following bit of good advice:
Cold water and Ice Cream are both extremely pernicious [in hot weather; the proper first aid for those who indulge].  New-York Evening Post, July 19, 1803, p. 3, col. 2

There is an illustration of a street vendor selling ice-cream in Harper's Weekly, August 15, 1868, p. 520.  The accompanying text on p. 521 does not contain the words "hokey pokey" or "ice cream", and the vendor is not identified or represented as Italian -- I don't notice any oddities of costume of facial appearance that characterized the stereotypical Italian.  The illustration is reproduced in John Grafton, New York in the Nineteenth Century, 2nd ed., N. Y., Dover, 1980, p. 84.

The earliest appearance of "hokey pokey" in Harper's Weekly, according to HarpWeek, is 1891.  I note that HarpWeek has the bizarre whimwham of replacing certain letters with Chinese characters -- a very useful feature.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Oct  7 17:22:31 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:22:31 -0400
Subject: Fw: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.132231.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

>>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

"Up" seems to me to more of an intensifier, as in "revv up" and "wash up".  If you must find syntactic blending, my candidate would be "hole up", which is a synonym for "den up" but has a different meaning from simple "hole".

Is syntactic blending something speakers actually do [how would you test it?] or just a name for a wide-spread pattern? 


Se?n Fitzpatrick
The ends had better justify the means.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: James A. Landau 
Sent: Monday, 06 October, 2003 08:10
Subject: Re: Syntactic blends


A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's country home.  The
bear was caught and transported a considerable distance in hopes that it would
"den up" and not return to David Letterman's neighborhood.

Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 17:38:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:38:16 -0400
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.133816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.villagevoice.com/bestof/2003/contents.php?subject=characters
best guy with a huge cock  JONAH FALCON

best horse whisperer  JOEL AT KENSINGTON STABLES

best hot lesbian party promoters  RACHAEL AND CHLO?

best justified misanthrope  ROBERT SHAPIRO

best lexicographer  GEORGE THOMPSON
(...)


   George Thompson has been voted by the VILLAGE VOICE as the Best Lexicographer in New York!  Congratulations George!
   (Uh, that's quite a list...)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct  7 17:42:43 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 10:42:43 -0700
Subject: Louis Menand, the Chicago Manual, and the PAP
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.104243.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from Louis Menand, "The end matter: The nightmare of citation" [review
of the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style], The New Yorker,
7/6/03, pp. 120-126.

p. 124:  One major addition... is a ninety-page section on Grammar and
Usage.  For some reason... the authors felt it necessary to cover the
field from scratch...  On the other hand, common sources of solecism
receive less attention than they might.  The College Board would still
not have avoided the mistake it made on a recent P.S.A.T. exam, where
it replaced the phrase "Toni Morrison's genius" with "her," if it had
consulted the Chicago discussion of pronouns and antecedents.
------
oh, spit.  *louis menand* getting it wrong!  and in a remarkably
obscure way; if you hadn't already seen the sentence he was talking
about (which begins "Toni Morrison's genius enables her to..."), i
doubt that you'd understand what he says here.  to start with, he seems
to be assuming that pronouns are replacements for repetitions of a full
NP (so that "As for Toni Morrison, not everyone likes her work" would
be derived from "As for Toni Morrison, not everyone likes Toni
Morrison's work").  and then he assumes the truth of the PAP, so that
"Toni Morrison" is unavailable as an antecedent for "her", which means
that the only available antecedent for "her" is "Toni Morrison's
genius".  therefore, according to menand, what the exam writers did was
replace "Toni Morrison's genius" with "her".  of course, what the exam
writers actually did was treat "Toni Morrison" as the antecedent of
"her".

on the other hand, i'm pleased to see that the Chicago Manual doesn't
subscribe to the PAP.

elizabeth zwicky pointed me to this passage as soon as i got home from
talking at cornell (about the PAP and also about the "gay voice")  and
saw this issue of The New Yorker on top of my pile of mail.  first
things first!

while in ithaca, i took in the enormous Friends of the Library book
sale (on its first day, but i didn't stand in line overnight to get in
early for the good stuff) and found several grammar and usage manuals
that i didn't have already that were innocent of the PAP.  also a copy
of allan metcalf's Predicting New Yords (2002), apparently untouched
and in perfect shape, for $4.50.  (my apologies, allan; i understand
that this time around you don't get any royalties on this copy.)
entertaining reading for the trip from syracuse to detroit to san
francisco.

we've already had the discussion of "zhoozh", which appears in allan's
book with the spelling "szhoosh" and a 1999 invention date (long after
its use in Polari).  otherwise, i'd object only to the glossing of
"guppies"  as "geriatric urban poor persons".  i'm sure allan has
citations for this use, but where i live, guppies are gay urban
professionals (parallel to buppies).   ask the man who is one.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), dismayed at the shocking lowering of
standards at
    The New Yorker


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Oct  7 20:28:36 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:28:36 EDT
Subject: California recall election
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.162836.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items of purely philological rather than political interest:
(both from AOL News)

"GOT CHAD?
 Check Your Ballot Card"

(photo credited to Reuters, no explanation, apparently the top page of a
ballot or ballot package in some jurisdiction using punch card voting)

and

[Schwartzenegger] said he had to put on his glasses to read the ballot, which
was several pages long, but the actor said he had no trouble finding his
name."I just went through the pages," he said. "Instead of going through two pages
I just went through 10 pages and you always look for the longest name."


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct  7 20:43:27 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:43:27 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.164327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.  One of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that puzzled me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been sold for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.

However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th, meaning "the featured attraction".

The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical Newspapers databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of the expression.

1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their Cost to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an illustration]
        National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.

1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty, four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib tongue in her head. . . .
        Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.

1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a bigger "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the Boston team.
         National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7

1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go Into Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in Second Game of Series.  [headline]
        Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.

1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
        Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.   ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)

1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over the country as the ?Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,? died on Tuesday at her home, 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E. Rice's company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his circus.  She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.

1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat that he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6

1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so the public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.

This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference, from the 1930s.

For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade To-day.  [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest woman in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this morning. . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
        Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.

Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with classic features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147 pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it adds ten-fold to her beauty.
        National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on p. 12.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct  7 22:40:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:40:30 -0700
Subject: from louis menand's pen
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.154030.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

as for louis menand and the PAP, i have done the obvious thing and
pulled out my copy of his book The Metaphysical Club and started
looking for violations of the PAP.  menand seems to be much given to
this useful construction, despite labeling it a "solecism" in his New
Yorker review.  here are the first six examples i found; they take us
through page 38 of this book of 445 pages of text (many of which have
extended quotations from the people he's writing about; i didn't look
at these).

all these examples have subject or object pronouns (set off by
understrokes).  examples with possessive pronouns are *everywhere*, but
many handbooks exempt them from the PAP, so i ignored them.

1,  an example of a type i hadn't considered before, with a reflexive
pronoun rather than a plain definite pronoun.  but i can't see why the
PAP shouldn't cover these in the same way as the others.

   p. 7: ...in a phrase that became the city's name for _itself_...

2.  p. 7: Dr. Holmes's views on political issues therefore tended to be
reflexive: _he_ took his cues from his own instincts...

3.  p. 25: Emerson's reaction, when Holmes showed _him_ the essay, is
choice...

4.  p. 28: Brown's apotheosis marked the final stage in the
radicalization of Northern opinion.  _He_  became, for many
Americans,...

5.  p. 31: Wendell Holmes's riot control skills were not tested.  Still
_he_ had, at the highest point of prewar contention...

6.  p. 38: Holmes's account of his first wound was written, probably
two years after the battle in which it occurred, in a diary _he_ kept
during the war.

there's really no point in pursuing this further.  there are probably
close to a hundred examples in the book.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct  7 23:51:08 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:51:08 -0400
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.195108.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good thing the typesetter didn't get the names mixed up.  Or maybe not?

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 1:38 PM
Subject: George Thompson--"Best of New York"


> http://www.villagevoice.com/bestof/2003/contents.php?subject=characters
> best guy with a huge cock  JONAH FALCON
>
> best horse whisperer  JOEL AT KENSINGTON STABLES
>
> best hot lesbian party promoters  RACHAEL AND CHLO?
>
> best justified misanthrope  ROBERT SHAPIRO
>
> best lexicographer  GEORGE THOMPSON
> (...)
>
>
>    George Thompson has been voted by the VILLAGE VOICE as the Best
Lexicographer in New York!  Congratulations George!
>    (Uh, that's quite a list...)
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:11:23 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:11:23 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.211123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta Constitution,  Dec.
30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying to be
actors.

     The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in this line
is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-dollar Beauty
of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the drawing
feature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."


This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before your 1890
cite.

PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the acting
that did him in?




----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"


> A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for
the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.  One
of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that puzzled
me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have
gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the
19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been sold
for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
>
> However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase
through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th, meaning
"the featured attraction".
>
> The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical Newspapers
databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of the
expression.
>
> 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got
Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their Cost
to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
illustration]
>         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
>
> 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty,
four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a
ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib
tongue in her head. . . .
>         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
>
> 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star
Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a bigger
"card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the
Boston team.
>          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
>
> 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go Into
Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in
Second Game of Series.  [headline]
>         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
>
> 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am
known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
>         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
>
> 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of
Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over the
country as the ?Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,? died on Tuesday at her home,
104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E. Rice's
company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
"Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the
feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his circus.
She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the
parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York
Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
>
> 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the
Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat that
he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the
map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
>
> 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so the
public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar
beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
> New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
>
> This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference, from
the 1930s.
>
> For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two
items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade To-day.
[headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so
fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest woman
in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this morning.
. . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
>         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
>
> Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with classic
features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium
height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147
pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it
adds ten-fold to her beauty.
>         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who
want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on p.
12.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998.
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:26:59 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:26:59 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.212659.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

The Atlanta Constitution date was 1888, not 1889.  Sorry.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"


> George,
>
> Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta Constitution,
Dec.
> 30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying to be
> actors.
>
>      The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in this
line
> is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-dollar
Beauty
> of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the drawing
> feature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."
>
>
> This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before your 1890
> cite.
>
> PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the acting
> that did him in?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
> Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
>
>
> > A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson, pitcher for
> the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in 1912.
One
> of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
> thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase that
puzzled
> me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't possibly have
> gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant to the
> 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had been
sold
> for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
> >
> > However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a catchphrase
> through the end of the 19th C and the first few decades of the 20th,
meaning
> "the featured attraction".
> >
> > The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical
Newspapers
> databases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the familiarity of
the
> expression.
> >
> > 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded Romeo Got
> Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and Their
Cost
> to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
> illustration]
> >         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
> >
> > 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even pretty,
> four years ago, but at the present she could not get an engagement with a
> ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries a glib
> tongue in her head. . . .
> >         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of Certain Star
> Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never had a
bigger
> "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty," of the
> Boston team.
> >          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
> >
> > 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last to Go
Into
> Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's Work in
> Second Game of Series.  [headline]
> >         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant, and am
> known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
> >         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
> ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
> >
> > 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
of
> Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded over
the
> country as the ?Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,? died on Tuesday at her home,
> 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward E.
Rice's
> company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
> "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her beauty the
> feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with his
circus.
> She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode in the
> parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New York
> Times, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
> >
> > 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" of the
> Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such eclat
that
> he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen off the
> map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
> >
> > 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,] and so
the
> public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand dollar
> beauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing field.
> > New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
> >
> > This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
> databases, except for an instance of it used with historical reference,
from
> the 1930s.
> >
> > For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here are two
> items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> > THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's Parade
To-day.
> [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has been so
> fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the handsomest
woman
> in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early this
morning.
> . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
> >         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
> >
> > Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde with
classic
> features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.  Of medium
> height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight is 147
> pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
> narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air, though it
> adds ten-fold to her beauty.
> >         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For those who
> want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph, also on
p.
> 12.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998.
> >
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 01:47:41 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 21:47:41 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.214741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

Using ancestry.com, here's another earlier cite.

>From the Burlington(IA) Hawk Eye, February 15, 1883(the date isn't on the
masthead, but info in the text of the page would confirm the date as
accurate.  p. 3, col.3-4:

(The story concerns a lady who was injured in a minor train accident and
sued.  It was originally printed in the Louisville(KY) Courier-Journal).

         Now she is in the court room again.  She has a fine figure and is
altogether lovely to look at, but as fierce as a leopardess when aroused.
She made her first appearance in Louisville at the Knickerbocker theater as
a variety actress.  She was extensively advertised as the "Ten
Thousand-dollar Beauty."

SC


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 02:25:17 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 22:25:17 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"-the final chapter?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.222517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George,

This is the earliest cite I can find on ancestry, searching from 1870-

(It concerns the lady to whom I referred in a previous message.  I quote
this latest one in its entirety, as it may help a researcher.

>From The Atlanta  Constitution, October 15, 1881, page 7, c. 2..


        Miss Louise Montague, the prettiest woman in the world, passed
through Atlanta yesterday in route to her home in Louisville.  Miss Montague
has for some time past been travelling with Forepaugh's circus, and has been
known as "Forepaugh's ten thousand dollar beauty."  She is said to be the
prettiest woman in the world, and was the feature of the street parades,
where she assumed the character of Lalla Rookh.  Miss Montague made a brief
sojourn in Atlanta yesterday, and dined at the Kimball.  Her "autograph" was
transferred to the register by Ned Callaway who asserts that the dreamy
eyes, pearly teeth and rosy cheeks captivated him in an instant.  Ned has
been singing "dreamy eyes that haunt me still" all evening.

I"ve got a fiver that SHE  is THE origin of the phrase.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct  8 03:22:04 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:22:04 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"-the final chapter-part 2
Message-ID: <TUE.7.OCT.2003.232204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I apologize to ADS-L members for so many posts.  I'll try to avoid this
behavior in the future.

George,

I found an earlier cite, from August 29, 1881.  It comes from the
Atchison(KS) Globe, p. ?, column 3:


          Forepaugh's ten thousand dollar beauty is on speaking terms with
the candy butcher, the lemonade assassin, and the peanut scoundrel, and the
three fight regularly every day about it.  It is perhaps unnesessary to add
that the beauty is a great fraud, and that hundreds of prettier girls visit
the show every day.

(Wowzer!  Everyone's a critic).


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 13:27:31 2003
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:27:31 EDT
Subject: Wall Street Journal of Monday, October 6: Enron and Bright
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.092731.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two items from Monday's Journal:

A-hed front page article on Enron company e-mail, 1.6 million pieces of it,
available in a searchable database. Could be a gold mine for early uses of
contemporary neologisms, or just for informal usage. Address is

www.ferc.gov/industries/electric/indus-act/wem/03-26-03-release.asp

Inside, on the editorial page, Dinesh D'Souza has a column on atheists
calling themselves "brights." Reference to "a recent article in the New York
Times"by "philosopher Daniel Dennett."

- Allan Metcalf


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct  8 13:40:58 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:40:58 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blends
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.084058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:10 AM -0400 10/6/03, James A. Landau wrote:
>A couple of days ago there was a newspaper story (unfortunately I did not
>keep it) about a bear that had been raiding David Letterman's
>country home.  The bear was caught and transported a considerable
>distance in hopes that it would "den up" and not return to David
>Letterman's neighborhood.
>
>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?


I do not see this as a syntactic blend. The two original components
of a syntactic blend should be synonymous or nearly so, e.g. "The
kids are driving me up the crazy" (I heard this once) from "The kids
are driving me crazy" and "The kids are driving me up the wall." An
example from the standard language: "time and again" from "time after
time" and "again and again."

Gerald Cohen
formerly avid collector of syntactic blends


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Oct  8 15:23:35 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:23:35 +0100
Subject: Wall Street Journal of Monday, October 6: Enron and Bright
In-Reply-To: <63.23381ef3.2cb56ac3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.162335.0100.>

> Inside, on the editorial page, Dinesh D'Souza has a column on atheists
> calling themselves "brights." Reference to "a recent article in the
> New York Times"by "philosopher Daniel Dennett."

They're a bit slow picking this up - that article was back in July.
See http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-bri1.htm, and also
http://www.the-brights.net, which has some links to other articles on
the subject. Somehow, I feel "bright" doesn't have legs ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 15:49:02 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:49:02 EDT
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.114902.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More Schwarzenegger philologia (and yes, I misspelled "Schwarzenegger" in my
last post).

<quote>
World Marvels at Schwarzenegger's Victory
By VANESSA GERA, AP

GRAZ, Austria (Oct. 8)

<snip>

The breakfast celebration took place in downtown Graz - a historic city in
southern Austria located just a few miles away from Schwarzenegger's boyhood
home, Thal.

The night before, hundreds of partygoers packed into the bar to cheer on
Schwarzenegger.

Chanting "Go, Arnie, Go!" from time to time, the celebrants at the party
sipped "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails in the bar, which was
decorated with "Join Arnold" campaign flyers and red, white and blue balloons.
<end quote>

And did anyone notice that the top four finishers in the governor's race
(it's no longer PC to say "gubernatorial") finished in order of the length of
their names?

Arnold Schwarzenegger   20 letters
Cruz Bustamante            14 letters
Tom McClintock              13 letters
Peter Samejo                  11 letters

(It is necessary to go to first names to break the tie for second place)

                    - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  8 16:14:42 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:14:42 -0400
Subject: More on "Boola Boola" and Barry Popik
In-Reply-To: <200310072240.h97MeZL15931@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.121442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few months ago I criticized Barry Popik for his July 13 posting, which
described a 1900 newspaper mention of "Boola Boola" without Barry's
acknowledging the contributions of two African-Americans who wrote the
song that was ripped off by "Boola Boola."  I wasn't really criticizing
Barry for this, rather I was chastising his denunciations of everyone who
doesn't have the complete corpora of ADS-L and that big-circulation
journal, Comments on Etymology, memorized.

I now want to do justice to Barry by pointing out that I have been
studying the question of the origin of the Yale "Boola Boola" song and I
have realized that his 1900 newspaper article is of tremendous
significance in casting doubt on the standard account of Allan M. Hirsh's
having written the song.  To put it plainly, the mention Barry has
discovered appears to flatly contradict Hirsh's own story of the song's
composition.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 14:35:13 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:35:13 -0400
Subject: from louis menand's pen
In-Reply-To: <417AC56C-F917-11D7-9330-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.103513.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold, please send your findings to Menand!  I suspect he and others,
despite their p.c. prating about this "rule," have never really thought it
through.  In fact, his way too long article on the Chicago Manual of Style
was just the typical New Yorkerish pedantry--the Manual is 900+ pages and
still not complete enough to satisfy writers' needs?!  Give me a break!

At 03:40 PM 10/7/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>as for louis menand and the PAP, i have done the obvious thing and
>pulled out my copy of his book The Metaphysical Club and started
>looking for violations of the PAP.  menand seems to be much given to
>this useful construction, despite labeling it a "solecism" in his New
>Yorker review.  here are the first six examples i found; they take us
>through page 38 of this book of 445 pages of text (many of which have
>extended quotations from the people he's writing about; i didn't look
>at these).
>
>all these examples have subject or object pronouns (set off by
>understrokes).  examples with possessive pronouns are *everywhere*, but
>many handbooks exempt them from the PAP, so i ignored them.
>
>1,  an example of a type i hadn't considered before, with a reflexive
>pronoun rather than a plain definite pronoun.  but i can't see why the
>PAP shouldn't cover these in the same way as the others.
>
>   p. 7: ...in a phrase that became the city's name for _itself_...
>
>2.  p. 7: Dr. Holmes's views on political issues therefore tended to be
>reflexive: _he_ took his cues from his own instincts...
>
>3.  p. 25: Emerson's reaction, when Holmes showed _him_ the essay, is
>choice...
>
>4.  p. 28: Brown's apotheosis marked the final stage in the
>radicalization of Northern opinion.  _He_  became, for many
>Americans,...
>
>5.  p. 31: Wendell Holmes's riot control skills were not tested.  Still
>_he_ had, at the highest point of prewar contention...
>
>6.  p. 38: Holmes's account of his first wound was written, probably
>two years after the battle in which it occurred, in a diary _he_ kept
>during the war.
>
>there's really no point in pursuing this further.  there are probably
>close to a hundred examples in the book.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  8 17:00:32 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:00:32 -0700
Subject: from louis menand's pen
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.100032.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

at the encouragement of andrea lunsford, i have sent louis menand
my two ADS postings about him, and also the abstract for the talk
i gave last thursday at cornell.

i hope he doesn't take this as a signal that he should be more
vigilant in avoiding possessive antecedents!

arnold, replying to beverly flanigan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 17:21:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:21:04 EDT
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.132104.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from lunch hour.  I didn't win a MacArthur grant this year, so
there's no Online Dictionary of Food & Drink, and it's back to work at the
McDonald's for lawyers.
   I got a copy of the VILLAGE VOICE and here's the whole thing:


VILLAGE VOICE, October 8-14, 2003, pg. 30, col. 3:

PAGE BREAKER:  george thompson is not your average lexicographer of slang.

_best lexicographer_
Though a member of the American Dialect Society and an avid reader of
19th-century newspapers, _GEORGE THOMPSON_ is not your average lexicographer of
slang--he has a sense of humor about it.  Librarian by day, Mr. Thompson calls
himself a "word collector," a phrase he dubs shorthand for "harmless crackpot."
However, he has made some important contributions to the field: the earliest
usage of _baseball_ (1823) and _jazz_ (1912)--which was oddly first used in the
context of baseball.  Elmer Holmes Bobst Library, 70 Washington Square South,
212-998-2517.


   Some quibbles.
   George Thompson found 1823 "base ball," not "baseball."  It is not a
contribution to our study of "slang."  Also, it is not the "earliest usage" of
"base ball."
   Second, the piece seems to assume that all lexicographers are "slang"
lexicographers, and that everybody in the American Dialect Society studies slang.
Not true.
   What's the meaning of "not your average lexicographer of slang"?
Considering that slang lexicographers number about 20 people at most--what's average?
Average concerning what?  And is George Thompson about the average or below
the average?  Why so?
   He's not average because  HE HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR ABOUT IT.  That's it?
He's the only one who tells jokes?
   Oooh, the next time I see that guy, he's getting my Arnold impression.
I've been doing it all day.  Hear me now and believe me later, I'm going to
terminate the VILLAGE VOICE impression that ADS members are not funny!  Ja!


From timryte at YAHOO.CA  Wed Oct  8 19:40:28 2003
From: timryte at YAHOO.CA (Timothy Wright)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:40:28 -0400
Subject: Suspension request
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I seem to have misplaced the instructions you sent me when I registered as a subscriber some time back.

I'd like to be off the list for a couple of months. Could you please effect this for me at the earliest and send me instructions on how to return to your mailing list when I am back?

Many thanks.

TIM WRIGHT



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 19:48:21 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:48:21 -0400
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154821.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My fame as "best lexicographer in New York" came from the fact that I happened to talk to a young woman at the reference desk here one evening when business was slow and we had a chance to chat.  She had asked about the OED, as I recall, and I showed her it on line.  She asked about lexicography as a career & MA programs, and I promised to ask Jesse and gave her my email.  By the time I had an answer from Jesse for her, she had decided she didn't really have the vocation, but said that she was a contributor to the VV's Best of NY special and wanted to use me as a subject.  I humbly tried to defer to Barry, but the kid was writing the paragraph for beer money and disinclined to go chase down someone she hadn't met, and so here I am.  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the first Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught robbing a bank.  Not that he thought robbing banks was a disgrace, the fault would lie in being caught.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 19:44:10 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:44:10 EDT
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154410.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another correction.  While Schwarzenegger had the longest last name of any
candidate (second longest was someone named Schwartzman, who finished ninth,
just behind Gary Coleman), had he really picked the person with the longest name
on the ballot, that would have been David Laughing Horse Robinson, who is
"Kawaiisu Tribe Chairman, Tejon Indian Reservation, 1997-present" and who finished
14th, two places behind Bill Simon (who dropped out of the race).

Mr. Robinson's Web site is <A HREF="http://mygov.governmentguide.com/mygov/webreturn/?id=141311&first=David&mi=Laughing+Horse&last=Robinson&url=http://www.horseforgovernor.com">www.horseforgovernor.com</A>.

Does anyone know what "Schwarzenegger" translates to?

       - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct  8 19:56:57 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:56:57 -0400
Subject: Suspension request
In-Reply-To: <20031008194028.4980.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.155657.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 03:40:28PM -0400, Timothy Wright wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  I seem to have misplaced the instructions you sent me when
> I registered as a subscriber some time back.  I'd like to be
> off the list for a couple of months. Could you please effect
> this for me at the earliest and send me instructions on how
> to return to your mailing list when I am back?

As is documented on the ADS Web site, specifically at
http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html ,
two ways of accomplishing this would be to simply
unsubscribe now and resubscribe when you're ready to
return, or to set your list options to "nomail",
which will leave you on the list but won't send
anything to you.

I have effected the latter option on your behalf.

Jesse Sheidlower
co-listowner, ADS-L


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Oct  8 19:57:42 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:57:42 -0400
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
In-Reply-To: <206b794206fca0.206fca0206b794@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.155742.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson said:
>My fame as "best lexicographer in New York" came from the fact that
>I happened to talk to a young woman at the reference desk here one
>evening when business was slow and we had a chance to chat.  She had
>asked about the OED, as I recall, and I showed her it on line.  She
>asked about lexicography as a career & MA programs, and I promised
>to ask Jesse and gave her my email.  By the time I had an answer
>from Jesse for her, she had decided she didn't really have the
>vocation, but said that she was a contributor to the VV's Best of NY
>special and wanted to use me as a subject.  I humbly tried to defer
>to Barry, but the kid was writing the paragraph for beer money and
>disinclined to go chase down someone she hadn't met, and so here I
>am.  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the
>first Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught
>robbing a bank.  Not that he thought robbing banks was a disgrace,
>the fault would lie in being caught.
>

So, are you trying to say that you got caught being a lexicographer?
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Wed Oct  8 20:15:17 2003
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:15:17 -0400
Subject: Anold's name
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.161517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe Arnold's name is a compound, Schwartz = black, dark and -egg =
German Eck, corner, edge and er=agentive suffix ... so I guess somewhere in
Thal bei Graz there's a farmer whose land is a Schwarzenegg.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct  8 21:21:34 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 17:21:34 EDT
Subject: George Thompson & humorless ADS people
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.172134.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/8/2003 3:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes:


> .  I don't know what my father would say of this glory -- the first
> Thompson to get his name in the paper without being caught robbing a bank.  Not that
> he thought robbing banks was a disgrace, the fault would lie in being
> caught.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson

   Oh, the VILLAGE VOICE was right after all.  George is funny.
   Not that Jesse or Erin can't tell a funny or two.

Barry Popik


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct  8 22:26:43 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:26:43 -0700
Subject: Not over till the fat lady sings ... in Texas?
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.152643.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had always thought that the 'fat lady' was brunhilde from the Wagnerian Opera. She sings right before everything goes up in smoke.

Fritz Juengling


At 1:51 PM +0100 10/4/03, Michael Quinion wrote:
>A subscriber has sent me a note which sounds like one of the more
>inventive bits of folk etymological invention that have come my way
>recently. But might there just be a smidgen of truth in it?
>
>He claims the expression comes from the Texas legislature, in which
>at one time (he quotes a time around WW2) an opera singer performed
>at the end of each legislative session. Whenever a legislator or
>lobbyist suffered a defeat, he would say, "It ain?t over until the
>Fat Lady sings!", by which he would declare that his project wasn't
>finally defeated until the session was adjourned.
>
>Your comments will be most welcome ...
>
>--

Mike,

This was a question I posed to the list a few years ago, and below
are the responses I got.  Southern stories seem to be very much in
evidence, but no opera singers at Texas legislative sessions...

Larry
==============

Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:04:07 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      a seasonal query

(for any season including both an impeachment trial and a Super Bowl...)

Can anyone help pin down the origin of the expression frequently cited in
sports contexts, and occasionally elsewhere, that "It ain't over till the
fat lady sings", used as a warning not to count one's victory chickens
until they've hatched?  Since I've also heard this in what I assume is the
full form, "The opera ain't (or isn't) over till the fat lady sings", I
assume a possibly apocryphal story along the lines of some sports buff
attending an opera (probably a football or basketball coach dragged there
by a spouse) who imagines that the evening must be drawing blessedly to a
close, only to realize the force of the above generalization. Fans can now
be seen on occasion holding up posters depicting a Wagnerian soprano in
full coloratura mode once the crucial field goal has been thrown in the
basket or kicked through the uprights by the home team.  And while I doubt
such posters will be held up at the Met any time soon, I wouldn't be
surprised to hear the same sentiment dripping from the lips of a Republican
senator or House "manager" sometime in the next couple of days.  In fact a
quick scan of Nexis includes a citation in which a financial speculator
comments that "the fat lady hasn't sung yet", i.e. all possibilities are
still open.  But who was the first to capture the allusion and unleash it
on a previously unwitting sporting world?  (I'd look it up, but I'm not
sure where or how.)

Larry

P.S.  I'm NOT looking for the semantically related Yogi Berra-ism, "It
ain't over till it's over", although it would be interesting to confirm
that it really did originate with Yogi and not before.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:51:09 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

This expression originated in Southern proverbial lore.  The key evidence
is a 1976 booklet entitled _Southern Words and Sayings_, which has an
entry, "Church ain't out 'till the fat lady sings."  There is an excellent
discussion in Ralph Keyes, _Nice Guys Finish Seventh_.  Keyes reports
several informants who recalled hearing the expression for decades before
it burst into national consciousness during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff
series.  One of the informants said "he never was quite sure what this
saying referred to, but thought that it 'was tied to the perception of
those like me who don't know much about opera that when the fat lady
sings, the opera's about to end.'"  On the other hand, the use of "church"
in the earliest known printed citation suggests the possibility of an
origin not specifically tied to opera.
==================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:54:12 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

My last message may not have really answered the question as to who
unleased the "fat lady" on the sports world.  Bullets coach Dick Motta,
who popularized the slogan during the 1978 Bullets-76ers playoff series,
got it from _San Antonio Express-News_ sportswriter Dan Cook.
====================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:12:35 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: a seasonal query

WHEN A CHURCH AIN'T A CHURCH (AND A SCHOOL AIN'T A SCHOOL NEITHER)

Not necessarily Fred. In my basketball playing days (and even after), the
phrases "School is out" and "Church is out" referred to "intense periods of
play or feverish activity in a game (or even in a fight), when the
participants tried their hardest." Such phrases were even used as
encouragment to fellow players. "OK, school's out. Let's get in there and
kick ass." It seemed also (as my invented routine suggests) to indicate
that any "delicacy" was about to be discarded.

This might be the "church" referred to in the 1976 quote, not making it
into print until long after the height of my basketball career (50's).

dInIs (the jump-shooter)
=======================
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:29 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Alice Faber <faber at lenny.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Fat Lady Singing

I've always associated the phrase "the opera ain't over til the fat lady
sings" with Abe Lemons, who was coach of the University of Texas basketball
team in the mid-70s, when I was a graduate student there. I have vivid
memories (perhaps spurious!) of a stack of books by or about Lemons
on display in the Co-op (which, in Austin, is a di-syllable!)
featuring somehow the phrase "fat lady" in the title.
==========================


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct  8 22:48:02 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:48:02 -0700
Subject: "Gouvernator" and "Stars-and-Stripes" cocktails
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.154802.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does anyone know what "Schwarzenegger" translates to?

schwarz= black
egge= a harrow;  also a dialect form for 'Ecke' corner, edge, piece

So, his name probably means 'black corner.'  This would be a corner or piece of a field, town, or some such area.  The black could refer to the soil itself, or to an area that was black because it was in the shadows of trees.
Fritz Juengling


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct  8 22:43:56 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 18:43:56 -0400
Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty", Mike Kelly & Ms. Montague
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.184356.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The phrase was originally applied to Ms. Montague, by Forepaugh, a circus operator, for publicity purposes.  The entry on Mike Kelly in the American National Biography describes "the Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty" as "a moniker borrowed from a stage actress of the day".  "In February 1887 Spalding, the president of the Chicago club, sold Kelly's contract to the Boston Beaneaters for the then-unheard-of sum of $10,000, the first sale of a "star" player in baseball's early history."

As for what shortened Mike Kelly's career -- he was the inspiration for the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" and is in the baseball Hall of Fame -- no doubt the distractions of being a celebrity were a part of it, but I think that his career was hampered and his life cut short (he died in his mid/late 30s) by his lack of "good training habits and self-discipline" (the ANB again) which is to say, he was much given to the drink, "the fault of many a good man", as Si Daedalus says in Ulysses.

As for the caddish remarks on Ms. Montague's inadequate supply of beauty: piffle!  "It is perhaps unnesessary to add that the beauty is a great fraud, and that hundreds of prettier girls visit the show every day."  What do the rubes in Atchison, Kansas know about beautiful dames?  It's true that she was a good solid welterweight, (147 lbs, according to the NPG) but that was the taste of the times.  Her picture is there in the NPG to refute all such cavils.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Clements <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2003 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"

> George,
>
> Using ancestry.com, I found an 1889 cite in the Atlanta
> Constitution,  Dec.
> 30. p.18, col 1.   It is talking about plays and athletes trying
> to be
> actors.
>
>     The other eminent and good man who is creating a sensation in
> this line
> is the very honorable Michael Josephus Kelly, the ten thousand-
> dollar Beauty
> of the Boston baseball club.  "Kell" is just now being used as the
> drawingfeature in Charlie Hoyt's laughable shot, "A Tin soldier."
>
>
> This at least gives a baseball connection to the phrase before
> your 1890
> cite.
>
> PS--King Kelly only had one more good year after that.  Was it the
> actingthat did him in?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 4:43 PM
> Subject: The "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
>
>
> > A while ago I posted a biographical sketch of Ben Henderson,
> pitcher for
> the Portland Beavers, who used the word "jazz" in an interview in
> 1912.  One
> of the stories quoted in the sketch referred to Henderson as the "ten
> thousand dollar beauty" (see the 1911 passage below), a phrase
> that puzzled
> me, since Henderson, having no bargaining leverage, couldn't
> possibly have
> gained a contract that would have paid him $10,000.  A participant
> to the
> 19th Century Baseball list suggested that Henderson's contract had
> been sold
> for that sum by one team to another, a more likely speculation.
> >
> > However, it appears that "ten thousand dollar beauty," was a
> catchphrasethrough the end of the 19th C and the first few decades
> of the 20th, meaning
> "the featured attraction".
> >
> > The passages below were all found through Proquest's Historical
> Newspapersdatabases.  The 1882 passage is evidently playing on the
> familiarity of the
> expression.
> >
> > 1882:   A THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR BEAUTY.  How a Discarded
> Romeo Got
> Even with His Faithless Juliet by Publishing Her Derelictions and
> Their Cost
> to Him before the Audience She Was Fascinating.  [caption to an
> illustration]
> >         National Police Gazette, February 18, 1882, p. 1.
> >
> > 1890:   The young woman may even have been good looking, or even
> pretty,four years ago, but at the present she could not get an
> engagement with a
> ten-cent show as the "ten thousand dollar beauty," but she carries
> a glib
> tongue in her head. . . .
> >         Los Angeles Times, August 2, 1890, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1905:   "Drawing Cards" in Baseball.  The Individuality of
> Certain Star
> Players Makes Them Popular with the Fans.  ***   Baseball never
> had a bigger
> "card" than Mike Kelly, the famous "ten thousand dollar beauty,"
> of the
> Boston team.
> >          National Police Gazette, September 9, 1905, p. 7
> >
> > 1906:   NICK ALTROCK, SHOEMAKER.  Sox Pitcher Quit Awl and Last
> to Go Into
> Baseball.  Father of  Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty Proud of Son's
> Work in
> Second Game of Series.  [headline]
> >         Washington Post, October 14, 1906, section S, p. 2, col.
> >
> > 1906:   "In the parades," she went on, "I ride the big elephant,
> and am
> known as ten thousand dollar beauty."
> >         Los Angeles Times, December 11, 1904, section F, p. 2, col.
> ("The Greatest Show on Earth", by Antony E. Anderson)
> >
> > 1910:   LOUISE MONTAGUE DEAD.  Was Famous "Ten Thousand Dollar
> Beauty" of
> Forepaugh's Circus.  [headline]  Louise M. Montague, once heralded
> over the
> country as the ?Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty,? died on Tuesday at
> her home,
> 104 Manhattan Avenue.  Louise Montague was an actress with Edward
> E. Rice's
> company in "The Corsair," and later became a star of David Henderson's
> "Sindbad the Sailor."  Adam Forepaugh, determined to make her
> beauty the
> feature of his circus, and in 1878 he engaged her to travel with
> his circus.
> She was advertised as the "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty."  and rode
> in the
> parades in a gorgeous chariot especially constructed for her.  New
> YorkTimes, March 17, 1910, p. 1, col.
> >
> > 1911:   Ben Henderson, pitcher and "Ten Thousand Dollar Beauty"
> of the
> Beaver squad, who fell off the water wagon at Stockton with such
> eclat that
> he had to go to a hospital to recuperate, now seems to have fallen
> off the
> map.  Los Angeles Times, July 7, 1911, section III, p. 1, col. 6
> >
> > 1919:   [a horse show will include a category for polo ponies,]
> and so the
> public will be able to see in the ring some of the "ten thousand
> dollarbeauties" that have hitherto been seen only on the playing
> field.> New York Times, October 5, 1919, p. 120, col.
> >
> > This is the last occurence of this phrase turned up through these
> databases, except for an instance of it used with historical
> reference, from
> the 1930s.
> >
> > For those yearning to know more of Miss Montague's beauty, here
> are two
> items from 1881, when she won Forepaugh's prize:
> > THE HANDSOMEST WOMAN.  Her First Appearance in Forepaugh's
> Parade To-day.
> [headline]  Miss Louise Montague, the queen of beauty, who has
> been so
> fortunate as to secure Forepaugh's $10,000 offered for the
> handsomest woman
> in the world, will arrive in this city from Philadelphia early
> this morning.
> . . .   {She will ride in the parade to the showgrounds.]
> >         Washington Post, April 4, 1881, p. 3, col.
> >
> > Miss Montague's claims to beauty is that she is a demi-blonde
> with classic
> features, a charming blue eye and a beautiful light complexion.
> Of medium
> height, she possesses a full and symmetrical figure.  Her weight
> is 147
> pounds.   A mass of wavy dark chestnut hair, combed well down over the
> narrow Grecian forehead, gives her somewhat of a matronly air,
> though it
> adds ten-fold to her beauty.
> >         National Police Gazette, April 23, 1881, p. 12.  For
> those who
> want ocular proof, the NPG offers an engraving from a photograph,
> also on p.
> 12.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> NorthwesternUniv. Pr., 1998.
> >
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct  8 23:36:22 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:36:22 -0700
Subject: which rule predicts that asterisk?
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.163622.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

more on the Possessive Antecedent Proscription, this time in response
to recent mail from a non-linguist colleague (who would like to point
out that the message to me "was prompted by a less-than-careful
reading" of huddleston & pullum, The Cambridge Grammar of the English
Language):

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003  8:34:10 AM US/Pacific
> To: ...
>
> On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 03:54 PM, you wrote:
>
>> I write responses to questions of English grammar and usage on a
>> website... Here's  a portion of what I wrote last spring in answer to
>> a query about the controversial
>> PSAT sentence.
>>
>> ...The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language does state that the
>> subjective form of the pronoun may not be used to refer to a
>> possessive
>> noun:
>
> no.  they do not state this.  they state a restriction that rules out
> instances of (retrospectively) anaphoric pronouns, in a very specific
> structural configuration.  it happens that the antecedent in this
> configuration can be either possessive or not, so that some examples
> of pronouns with possessive antecedents happen to be ruled out.
> however, the restriction cited in CGEL -- it's not original with them
> -- wouldn't rule out *any* of the examples [i've cited recently],
> including the toni morrison example from the PSAT.
>
>> ?Without the support of Ann's mother, she would not have survived (not
>> correct)
>
> CGEL gives this one, which i'll label (i), with an asterisk, not a
> question mark.
>
>> The same source, however, presents the following utterance as a
>> (correct)
>> example of reference using the objective form of the pronoun:
>>
>> Without the support of Ann's mother, I wouldn't have been able to
>> persuade
>> her to seek medical help (Section 2.4.1, p. 1478)...
>
> here's the offending configuration:
>
> 1.  retrospective (not anticipatory) anaphora, i.e., the antecedent
> precedes the pronoun; the effect is not found for anticipatory
> anaphora, as CGEL shows.
>
> 2.  the pronoun is the subject of the sentence; the effect is not
> found for pronouns in any other function, as CGEL notes.
>
> 3.  the antecedent is inside a sentence-initial PP (adverbial)
> modifier.  other types of sentence-initial modifiers are fine: cf. (i)
> with
>   (ii) If Ann's mother hadn't given her support, she wouldn't have
> survived.
> (CGEL doesn't say this, but it's implicit in their reference to PP
> specifically.)
>
> 4.  this modifier must be *preposed*, not merely sentence-initial.
> that is, there must be some sense in which the modifier "belongs" in
> the VP.  ordinary sentence-modifying PPs are fine (so long as there's
> no problem with foregrounding/topicality/etc.); CGEL gives
>   (iii) In view of Paul's special circumstances, he was given extra
> time.
> to which i can add things like
>   (iv) According to Paul's view of the universe, he deserved extra
> time.
>   (v)  In Toni Morrison's latest book, she attacks her critics.
>
> CGEL carefully uses the word "preposed", but without laying out why
> "sentence-initial" would not have sufficed.  this is a subtlety that
> most readers probably won't appreciate.  if you don't catch that, then
> you'd expect (v) to be bad, and (v) is a type of example that *does*
> figure in many handbook discussions of the PAP.  but even if you miss
> the subtlety, the CGEL restriction doesn't rule out
>   (vi) Toni Morrison's genius enables her...
>
> note that possessives aren't specifically mentioned in any of this.
> the antecedent in question can be either possessive or not; CGEL gives
> two examples of each.
>
> but... wait!  a reasonable person might look at the four clauses in
> the proscription above and throw up the hands in horror.  why on earth
> should *just this* assortment of conditions produce ungrammaticality?
>
> there is a very nice answer to this, due (if i remember correctly) to
> george lakoff, from a long time ago:  sentences with truly preposed
> initial PP modifiers show the same conditions on anaphor-antecedent
> linkages as sentences with the PP modifiers where they "belong"; (i)
> is bad because (vii) -- a classic violation of the precede-command
> constraint on such linkages (in my opinion, one of the very few
> genuinely structural conditions on them..) -- is bad:
>   (vii) She would not have survived without the support of Ann's
> mother.
> (out on the reading in which "she" refers to Ann).
>
> so... there are some wonderfully fascinating phenomena here, but they
> have nothing in particular to do with the PAP.
>
> arnold
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 03:41:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:41:07 -0400
Subject: Jalapeno pepper (February 1937)
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.234107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   ProQuest is now at April 1937.
   Merriam-Webster has 1939 for "jalapeno."  OED has 1949.  The (Popik) Online Historical Dictionary of Food and Drink has--no, wait a minute, I do parking tickets.



      Strength of Rail Group Features Market Rally
       GEORGE T HUGHES.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 9, 1937.                   p. A17 (2 pages) :
(Continued on Pg. 21--ed.)
   PEPPERS--Mex. Cal. Wonders, 6 at 7 pound; green chili and yellow chili, 11 at 12; Jalapeno peppers, 9 at 10 pound.


      Rediscovering Los Angeles
       TIMOTHY G TURNER.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 2, 1935.                   p. A1 (1 page):
   Dishes that are called "Spanish" by Americans are usually not Spanish, but Mexican.  Those black beans are quite typical of Mexico.  Garbanzos (chick peas) are the true Spanish vegetable.  Likewise tamales and enchiladas are unknown to the Spanish, being as Mexican as doughnuts and popcorn are Yankee.  As for chile con carne, that is a dish that is not known in either Spain or Mexico.  It is rather bad Spanish, for why should the sauce be put before the meat?  Yet it is a dish of native origin, and not synthetic like the mock Chinese chop suey.  Chile con carne is probably a local native Texan dish which has spread along the border but not into Mexico.
   The little cafes like "El Capricho de los Dorados" that are found in the Mexican districts of Los Angeles have all these dishes and many more, tacos and menudo and the fiery mole.  You have your choice of French bread or the native tortilla, the pancakelike corn bread that is as typically Mexican as can be.  Some serve the Mexican "comida corrida," which has few or none of those native folk dishes, formulated in Roman times which beings with a soup and ends with a sweet.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 03:55:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 23:55:32 -0400
Subject: B and B; another BTL (1937)
Message-ID: <WED.8.OCT.2003.235532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Almost a BLT.


      Cook's Notebook
       RUTH CHAMBERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 8, 1937.                   p. A8 (1 page) :
_MY FAVORITE SANDWICH_
   For me, no sandwich comes quite up to bacon, tomato, and lettuce layers between toasted whole wheat bread.  This sandwich has a convenient two-way possibility--it may be either a straight sandwich between two slices of toast or it may become a decker or club sandwich.
(...)
   Good old baked beans and bacon appear together in
_B AND B SANDWICH_
   Fry bacon until crisp.  Delicately brown slices of bread in bacon fat.  Heat baked beans and put a generous spoonful on one side of bread.  Over this pour a spoonful of chili sauce.  Place two slices of bacon on top, and then another slice of bread.  Cut across diagonally and serve.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 06:44:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 02:44:38 EDT
Subject: Radio Glossary (1935), with hand "OK" sign, "Peace" sign
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.024438.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S NEW TERMS COMPILED
       CARROLL NYE.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Jul 7, 1935.              p. A6 (1 page)


   I sure had a difficult time reading this.  The NYPL doesn't pick up the
LOS ANGELES TIMES this early.  I might have to go to the Library of Congress
again, and it's closed on Monday (Columbus Day).
   In addition to the word glossary, there are hand signs that were used in
radio.  One is the "OK" sign.  This 1935 date is about two years earlier than
the Ballantine Beer ad campaign, and about five years earlier than the chef
usage (made famous on pizza boxes).
   There's also a "V for Victory" or "Peace" hand sign here.
   Just a wonderful article, if only I could read it.  I'll post the cite
here now for easy reference.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct  9 18:50:29 2003
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:50:29 -0400
Subject: Are you a Yooper?
In-Reply-To: <15.1a2c07d8.2cb65dd6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.145029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I need a native Yooper to clear up a query for me - preferably a
Yooper in the Central Time Zone.

If you fit the bill, please drop me a line.

Thanks.

-- Steve Kleinedler


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 18:54:57 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:54:57 +0000
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.185457.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following article has been sent to you from the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com):

- - - - - - - - - - -

Message:

Our own Jesse S. made it to the Free Press (the 'Freep') this morning.  Of course the word in question is more than half a millennium old, but who's counting?

- - - - - - - - - - -

Published October  9, 2003
http://www.freep.com/features/living/ager9_20031009.htm

SUSAN AGER: Overuse robs shock word of its power

BY SUSAN AGER
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST





Now that California has chosen as its leader a man who admits to having groped women, it's time to lift the flimsy veil off the F-word and let it stand proudly. It's half a millennium old, a synonym for nookie that has matured into an all-purpose adjective and exclamation for our times.


It's been mainstreamed, by you and me.


This week, the Federal Communications Commission merely shrugged over complaints that U2 singer Bono had violated TV obscenity standards by uttering these words on a music awards show: "This is really, really
(F-word)ing brilliant."


Apart from 200-some complaints from an organized lobby to clean up TV, only 17 average Joes and Janes complained to the FCC. It concluded the word was OK because Bono used a variant that had nothing to do with sex.

Between the bleeps


On CNN, the darling young anchor Anderson Cooper explained the ruling this way: "Bono didn't violate the law because what he said, quote, 'does not describe sexual or excretory organs,' or for that matter the filthy, disgusting things people do with them. In other words he meant (bleep)ing, the merely crude adjective, not (bleep), the reprehensible verb.


"The FCC also says it's OK to use such words as an insult. In other words, I can call you a (bleep)er, but not because you (bleep)ed my sister.


"If it gets too confusing for you, well, (bleep) you."


Anderson Cooper, who is young, droll and cute, used the F-word nine times on the world's most popular TV network. The bleeps were so brief you could hear every F and K.


I wonder when these silly games will end. We all know what he said. A 6-year-old knows! These tricks only amuse and titillate, the way a woman's skimpy swimsuit provokes more leering than she might if she took it all off.


A few days ago, this newspaper printed an article about a British fashion company whose logo -- FCUK -- is upsetting oldsters while sucking the money from youngsters' wallets.


We printed this non-word, and we're printing it again. But we cannot print the F-word spelled correctly.


The venerable New York Times has broken its own rules and printed the F-word only once, in a transcript of the Starr Report. Monica Lewinsky complained that Bill Clinton "helped (F-word) up my life."

Ask the expert


I learned that sweet bit of trivia from the world's foremost authority on the F-word. His name is Jesse Sheidlower. He is a 35-year-old linguist. He is the principal North American editor of the esteemed Oxford English Dictionary.


And he is the author of "The F Word" (Random House, out of print).


"There's no question," he told me from his office in Manhattan, "that in the last 10 to 15 years, it's been increasingly acceptable and appearing in places it never appeared in the past." Such as the New Yorker magazine. Such as HBO. Such as Canadian and British newspapers, where columnists use it in their very first paragraphs.


The FCC ruled correctly, he says, because the F-word is rarely used anymore in sexual references, but most often as what he called "a general intensifier."


For example, That hulking groper is now the (F-word)ing governor!


We'll never lose obscenities, Sheidlower says, "because we'll always need vocabulary that shocks." New words will creep up. Old words will be recast. But the F-word?


It's common, passe and, in most circumstances, impotent.



Copyright ? 2003 Detroit Free Press Inc.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct  9 19:14:39 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:14:39 -0400
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
In-Reply-To: <200310091854.SAA06677@m0591nwk1.cust.loudcloud.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.151439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 06:54:57PM +0000, Geoff Nathan wrote:
> The following article has been sent to you from the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com):
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Message:

>  Our own Jesse S. made it to the Free Press (the 'Freep')
> this morning.  Of course the word in question is more than
> half a millennium old, but who's counting?

Thanks. It's also the case that _The F-Word_ is not out of print,
but whatever.

JTS


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Oct  9 20:24:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:24:09 -0400
Subject: jazzer, 1896
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.162409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an 1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between "Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 -- then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.

Quickly consulting some indexes to the names in the late 19th C/early 20th C U. S. censuses, I find that the name Jazzer or Jasser appeared in Alabama in 1870 and in New York in 1900.  In 1910, in the NYC section of the census, there were 6 Jassers and 1 Jazzer.  The name did not show up in Massachusetts census indexes.  These indexes are to the names of the heads of households listed in the notebooks the census-takers carried about.  Nearly all of the notebooks from the 1890 census were destroyed in a fire very many years ago, and the notebooks from the 1870, 1880, 1900 & 1910 censues for some of the states have not yet been indexed.  It's obviously a very uncommon name, but a few people carried it in this country before 1896.
RLIN shows no book by a Jazzer, but a dozen or so by Jasser, most in German, but it seems also possiible as an Arab name.

So perhaps the contriver of this joke, not wanting to use the usual names for his interlocutors, such as He & She, or Pat & Mike, &c., used a couple of names he had somewhere come upon and remembered as inherently comical.

If so, then it saves us the problem of contriving a history of the word "Jazz" that would account for its giving rise in 1896 in Massachusetts to a nickname apparently meaning "One who jazzes".  Which would be a blessing.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct  9 20:45:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:45:02 -0400
Subject: A la mode (1641)
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.164502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED and Merriam-Webster have 1649 or 1650 for "a la mode" (no "pie").  EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE will be getting some improvements in November, but we can still beat the word wizards.


Author: Robinson, Henry, 1605?-1664?
Title: Englands safety in trades encrease most humbly presented to the high court of Parliament / by Henry Robinson ...
Publication date: 1641.
ENGLANDS SAFETY IN TRADES ENCREASE.
??? ... ns, and what else is deem'd requi|site to the accomplish't apparelling (so thought at present) ?  la mode, wherein all Europe speake true French though not the same Dialect, for where all us ...


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Oct  9 21:44:44 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:44:44 -0400
Subject: A la mode (1641)
In-Reply-To: <16017B49.16787DFF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.174444.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our date was 1646, actually, but you still beat us.

Oh well, now we'll know how to dress for Halloween, battered
wands and all.  Do you supposed we'd be allowed to march in the
Village parade?



Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct  9 21:46:54 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:46:54 -0700
Subject: Detroit Free Press article
In-Reply-To: <200310091854.SAA06677@m0591nwk1.cust.loudcloud.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.144654.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Apart from 200-some complaints from an organized
> lobby to clean up TV, only 17 average Joes and Janes
> complained to the FCC. It concluded the word was OK
> because Bono used a variant that had nothing to do
> with sex.

Is Susan Ager implying that someone besides these
217-some people actually pay attention to music awards
programs?




=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Oct  9 22:10:12 2003
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:10:12 -0400
Subject: WOTY: taikonaut
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0310091448090.23079@panix5.panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.181012.0400.>

taikonaut, n., Chinese astronaut, from "taikong" meaning space, cosmos +
"-naut"

This one isn't exactly new, Google groups has it from 2000 and it's listed
in Wordspy, but if it gets a lot of play in coming weeks it will be a
worthwhile nominee.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 23:02:52 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:02:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.190252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

musicologist (OED3 1915)

1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

Fred Shapiro


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                          Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and  YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research  Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                          forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu            http://quotationdictionary.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 00:03:13 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:03:13 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Atonal"
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.200313.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

atonal (OED 1922)

1911 _Musical Times_ 1 Dec. 777  Not only these soft 'atonal'
harmonies, but also the harsher whole-tone scales and aggregates ...
appear in several parts of 'Boris Godounov'.

Fred Shapiro


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                          Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and  YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research  Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                          forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu            http://quotationdictionary.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 00:20:46 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:20:46 -0400
Subject: "Murphy's Law" in Cleveland Plain Dealer
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.202046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The article below may be of interest to Murphyologists on this list.
As usual, I don't necessarily agree with everything imputed to me by
the reporter.

Fred Shapiro


                         Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio)

                     October 2, 2003 Thursday, Final / All

SECTION: NATIONAL; Pg. A1

LENGTH: 859 words

HEADLINE: One thing may go right for Murphy;
Famed law's namesake and other former aerospace engineers up for award

BYLINE: Bill Sloat, Plain Dealer Reporter

BODY:

   Dayton - Capt. Edward Murphy was a young engineer at the Wright
Field Aircraft Lab in the 1940s and 1950s when he helped launch one of
Ohio's oddest inventions - Murphy's Law.

   Most people know the law: Anything that can go wrong, will.

   But they don't know about Murphy, who is often described as an
imaginary, all-thumbs oaf who appeared in military cartoons.

   But Capt. Murphy, an all-but-for- gotten aerospace pioneer, will
start to get his due tonight at Harvard University.

   In a ceremony honoring some of the science world's wackiest
discoveries and research projects, Murphy is up for an Ig Nobel Prize.
The awards, in their 13th year, honor achievements that first make
people laugh, then make them think, said event organizer Marc Abrahams.

   Four real Nobel Prize winners will hand out tonight's Ig Nobels,
Abrahams said.

   The ceremony will be broadcast live online at www.improbable.com,
and unless something goes wrong, Murphy is considered a shoo-in for
the engineering award.

   Murphy died in 1990. His son, Edward, is expected to attend
tonight's ceremony.

   A handful of authors, historians and word sleuths have traced the
law's origin back to Murphy, who showed up at Edwards Air Force Base
in California for a day and half in 1949 during a rocket-sled test.

   Murphy brought G-force sensors developed in his Ohio lab -now part
of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base - for the experiment, which were
supposed to measure how much acceleration a human body could withstand
before turning into mush.

   George Nichols, an 83-year-old retired Northrop aerospace engineer,
was present when the sensors malfunctioned because they had been
installed incorrectly.

   Nichols said Murphy chewed out a technician and exclaimed, "If
there's a way to do it wrong, he will!"

   Nichols, who will share the Ig Nobel award with Murphy and the late
rocket-sled pilot, John Paul Stapp, said in a telephone interview from
his home in California that he christened the axiom Murphy's Law. He
said it quickly metamorphosed into, "If it can happen, it will happen"
at Edwards.

   It spread rapidly through the aerospace world and eventually
morphed into the version that's widely known today.

   "He was an obstinate fellow," Nichols recalled. "He cussed at the
technician."

   Nichols remembers Murphy as a spit-and-polish officer from West
Point.

   "We were more casual at Edwards; you might call it laid back. We
were off by ourselves at the North Base," Nichols said. "Being a West
Pointer, he was more than a typical officer. He had a pretty good
opinion of himself."

   Fred Shapiro, editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations, said it
is possible that Murphy's Law had other origins. Still, he's fairly
certain Harvard is honoring the right guys.

   "Others have suggested an origin in science-fiction fan circles, or
from a bigoted tradition of associating Irish people with
incompetence," Shapiro said. "I believe Nichols, Murphy and Stapp
originated Murphy's Law."

   He said America's original astronauts helped spread the story that
Murphy was a fictional character. And it turns out that retired Sen.
John Glenn, America's first astronaut to orbit the Earth, was the
source of the story that Murphy was an all-thumbs mechanic.

   Glenn wrote in "We Seven" - co-authored in 1962 by the seven
original astronauts - that Murphy was prone to making mistakes in the
Navy educational cartoons. In a chapter titled "Glitches in Time Save
Trouble," Glenn said the cartoon Murphy would put propellers on
backward or forget to tighten bolts.

   "He finally became such an institution that someone thought up a
principle of human error called Murphy's Law. It went like this: Any
part that can be installed wrong will be installed wrong at some point
by someone," Glenn wrote 41 years ago.

   In an interview this week, Glenn said he had probably made a
mistake.

   "I should have made that Dilbert instead of Murphy. I never knew
that Murphy's Law had anything to do with a real person," Glenn said.

   Glenn met Stapp during the early days of the astronaut program. "He
made some wild rides out there on the rocket sled," Glenn said. "He
was designing restraint harnesses for cockpits. I never knew he worked
on Murphy's Law, too."

   Author and historian Nick T. Spark once found a recorded interview
that Murphy did sometime after 1977 in which he was asked if he
regretted being associated with Murphy's Law.

   "No, I enjoy it," Murphy said in the interview. "Everybody likes to
think they have discovered a wonderful thing when they hear Murphy's
Law for the first time."

   Historians, writing in the Air Force publication Leading Edge,
delved into the tale of Murphy's Law and concluded that the genius of
Murphy, Nichols and Stapp went overlooked - just as their law
forewarns.

   "Perhaps it's to be expected that the participants at the creation
of the law would also be affected by it, especially one of its more
well known corollaries: On the rare occasion something is successful,
the wrong person will get the credit."

   To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:bsloat at plaind.com, 513-631-4125


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 19:39:39 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:39:39 -0400
Subject: Murphy's Law Article in Cleve. Plain Dealer
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.153939.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought the article below might be of interest to some of the
Murphyologists on this list.  As usual, I don't necessarily agree with
everything imputed to me by the reporter.

Fred Shapiro


                         Plain Dealer (Cleveland, Ohio)

                     October 2, 2003 Thursday, Final / All

SECTION: NATIONAL; Pg. A1

LENGTH: 859 words

HEADLINE: One thing may go right for Murphy;
Famed law's namesake and other former aerospace engineers up for award

BYLINE: Bill Sloat, Plain Dealer Reporter

BODY:

   Dayton - Capt. Edward Murphy was a young engineer at the Wright Field
Aircraft Lab in the 1940s and 1950s when he helped launch one of Ohio's oddest
inventions - Murphy's Law.

     Most people know the law: Anything that can go wrong, will.

     But they don't know about Murphy, who is often described as an imaginary,
all-thumbs oaf who appeared in military cartoons.

     But Capt. Murphy, an all-but-for- gotten aerospace pioneer, will start to
get his due tonight at Harvard University.

               In a ceremony honoring some of the science world's wackiest
discoveries and research projects, Murphy is up for an Ig Nobel Prize. The
awards, in their 13th year, honor achievements that first make people laugh,
then make them think, said event organizer Marc Abrahams.

     Four real Nobel Prize winners will hand out tonight's Ig Nobels, Abrahams
said.

     The ceremony will be broadcast live online at www.improbable.com, and
unless something goes wrong, Murphy is considered a shoo-in for the engineering
award.

     Murphy died in 1990. His son, Edward, is expected to attend tonight's
ceremony.

     A handful of authors, historians and word sleuths have traced the law's
origin back to Murphy, who showed up at Edwards Air Force Base in California for
a day and half in 1949 during a rocket-sled test.

   Murphy brought G-force sensors developed in his Ohio lab -now part of
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base - for the experiment, which were supposed to
measure how much acceleration a human body could withstand before turning into
mush.

     George Nichols, an 83-year-old retired Northrop aerospace engineer, was
present when the sensors malfunctioned because they had been installed
incorrectly.

     Nichols said Murphy chewed out a technician and exclaimed, "If there's a
way to do it wrong, he will!"

     Nichols, who will share the Ig Nobel award with Murphy and the late
rocket-sled pilot, John Paul Stapp, said in a telephone interview from his home
in California that he christened the axiom Murphy's Law. He said it quickly
metamorphosed into, "If it can happen, it will happen" at Edwards.

     It spread rapidly through the aerospace world and eventually morphed into
the version that's widely known today.

     "He was an obstinate fellow," Nichols recalled. "He cussed at the
technician."

     Nichols remembers Murphy as a spit-and-polish officer from West Point.

     "We were more casual at Edwards; you might call it laid back. We were off
by ourselves at the North Base," Nichols said. "Being a West Pointer, he was
more than a typical officer. He had a pretty good opinion of himself."

     Fred Shapiro, editor of the Yale Dictionary of Quotations, said it is
possible that Murphy's Law had other origins. Still, he's fairly certain Harvard
is honoring the right guys.

     "Others have suggested an origin in science-fiction fan circles, or from a
bigoted tradition of associating Irish people with incompetence," Shapiro said.
"I believe Nichols, Murphy and Stapp originated Murphy's Law."

     He said America's original astronauts helped spread the story that Murphy
was a fictional character. And it turns out that retired Sen. John Glenn,
America's first astronaut to orbit the Earth, was the source of the story that
Murphy was an all-thumbs mechanic.

     Glenn wrote in "We Seven" - co-authored in 1962 by the seven original
astronauts - that Murphy was prone to making mistakes in the Navy educational
cartoons. In a chapter titled "Glitches in Time Save Trouble," Glenn said the
cartoon Murphy would put propellers on backward or forget to tighten bolts.

     "He finally became such an institution that someone thought up a principle
of human error called Murphy's Law. It went like this: Any part that can be
installed wrong will be installed wrong at some point by someone," Glenn wrote
41 years ago.

     In an interview this week, Glenn said he had probably made a mistake.

     "I should have made that Dilbert instead of Murphy. I never knew that
Murphy's Law had anything to do with a real person," Glenn said.

     Glenn met Stapp during the early days of the astronaut program. "He made
some wild rides out there on the rocket sled," Glenn said. "He was designing
restraint harnesses for cockpits. I never knew he worked on Murphy's Law, too."

     Author and historian Nick T. Spark once found a recorded interview that
Murphy did sometime after 1977 in which he was asked if he regretted being
associated with Murphy's Law.

     "No, I enjoy it," Murphy said in the interview. "Everybody likes to think
they have discovered a wonderful thing when they hear Murphy's Law for the first
time."

     Historians, writing in the Air Force publication Leading Edge, delved into
the tale of Murphy's Law and concluded that the genius of Murphy, Nichols and
Stapp went overlooked - just as their law forewarns.

     "Perhaps it's to be expected that the participants at the creation of the
law would also be affected by it, especially one of its more well known
corollaries: On the rare occasion something is successful, the wrong person will
get the credit."

   To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:bsloat at plaind.com, 513-631-4125


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 20:31:14 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:31:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
In-Reply-To: <22fe21122ffdf9.22ffdf922fe211@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.163114.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

musicologist (OED3 1915)

1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct  9 21:01:52 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:01:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Atonal"
In-Reply-To: <16017B49.16787DFF.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.OCT.2003.170152.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

atonal (OED 1922)

1911 _Musical Times_ 1 Dec. 777  Not only these soft 'atonal' harmonies,
but also the harsher whole-tone scales and aggregates ... appear in
several parts of 'Boris Godounov'.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 05:38:42 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:38:42 EDT
Subject: Yo-Yo, Pansit/Pancit (1961 translation of 1888)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.013842.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REMINISCENCES AND TRAVELS OF JOSE RIZAL
Translated and annotated by
Engarnacion Alzona
Manila: Jose Rizal National Centennial Commission
1961

   "Compliments of Engarnacion Alzona" was on the cover.  By the translator's
name was written "Ph.D. Columbia."  I read the book at Columbia University.
   Rizal traveled to the Far East and to Europe.


Pg. 9 (28 October 1878):  I returned home and I went to the orchard to look
for a _mabolo_* to eat.
   *_Mabolo_ or _mabulo_ (_Diaspyros discolor_ Willd.) is a tree that bears
fruit pf the same name.  When ripe, it is fragrant, fleshy, sweet, and satis
fying.
(It's Filipino.  Not in the revised OED.  Google has 2,800 hits, including
some English language dictionaries--ed.)

Pg. 10 (28 October 1878):  I studied my lesson, I drew a little, and
afterwards I took my supper consisting of one or two dishes of rice with an
_ayungin_.*
   *_Ayungin_ is the name of a small (about 12 centimeters long) fresh water,
inexpensive fish.  (_Therapon plumbeus_ Kner.)
(It's Filipino.  Not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 140 (12 February 1888):  I ate at the house of Mr. Basa at midday; we had
_pansit_.*
   *A dish of Chinese noodles.
(Filipino dish.  Again, not in OED.  About 4,200 Google hits.  Also
"pancit"--ed.)

Pg. 181 (15 November 1891):  In the stores I saw sugar apples, _sotanjun_
(mongo bean noodles), _mike_ (flour noodles), pineapple, bananas, and (Pg.
182--ed.) ginger, just like in the stores in Manila.  We took pictures of some
tombs.  The excursion cost us one peso round trip in a carriage drawn by one horse.
 The market reminded me of the _palenque_.*
   *In the Philippines a market is often called _palenque_ or _palenke_.

Pg. 261 (9 February 1886):  The geese announced to me that I was nearing
Strasbourg, the city of the _foie gras_, a delicacy made of the fat or swollen
liver of geese of which much is sold.

Pg. 304 (27 July 1888):  I got acquainted there with many people, and as I
was carrying a _yo-yo_* the Europeans and the Americans marvelled at the way I
used it as an offensive weapon.
   *A toy, a small disc that fits in the hollow of the hand with a string
attached to it, and can be thrown in any direction by the holder and comes back
to him.
(OED and Merriam-Webster have 1915 for "yo-yo."  From Filipino?--ed.)

Pg. 313 (1888):  Before his departure for abroad, we decided among various
members of the Filipino colony to offer him a modest dinner whose characteristic
dish was _pansit_* prepared by a fellow countryman, Pedro Arcenas, with
_bijon_ and _mique_* obtained from a Filipino family.
   *_Pansit_ is a favorite dish of the Filipinos.  It is made of noodles
called _bijon_, made of rice, or _mique_, made of flour, with pork, shrimps,
chicken, and other ingredients sauteed with garlic and onions.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Oct 10 05:52:08 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 01:52:08 -0400
Subject: Yo-Yo, Pansit/Pancit (1961 translation of 1888)
In-Reply-To: <b4.23539c73.2cb79fe2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.015208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Pg. 140 (12 February 1888):  I ate at the house of Mr. Basa at midday; we had
>_pansit_.*
>    *A dish of Chinese noodles.
>(Filipino dish.  Again, not in OED.  About 4,200 Google hits.  Also
>"pancit"--ed.)

This is in MW3.

>Pg. 181 (15 November 1891):  In the stores I saw sugar apples, _sotanjun_
>(mongo bean noodles), _mike_ (flour noodles), pineapple, bananas, and (Pg.
>182--ed.) ginger, just like in the stores in Manila.  We took pictures of some
>tombs.  The excursion cost us one peso round trip in a carriage drawn by
>one horse.
>  The market reminded me of the _palenque_.*
>    *In the Philippines a market is often called _palenque_ or _palenke_.

"Palenque" seems to be originally Spanish (= "palisade" etc.), as are many
Philippine words.

>Pg. 304 (27 July 1888):  I got acquainted there with many people, and as I
>was carrying a _yo-yo_* the Europeans and the Americans marvelled at the way I
>used it as an offensive weapon.
>    *A toy, a small disc that fits in the hollow of the hand with a string
>attached to it, and can be thrown in any direction by the holder and comes
>back
>to him.
>(OED and Merriam-Webster have 1915 for "yo-yo."  From Filipino?--ed.)

 From the Philippines. From what language ultimately, I don't know:
apparently when the word was adopted into English it was already used in
multiple Philippine languages. At least that's the best information I could
get when I looked into it a while back.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 06:57:32 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 02:57:32 EDT
Subject: Tether Ball (1897)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.025732.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Jon Stewart's THE DAILY SHOW (catch the Comedy Central re-run at 7 p.m.)
had a tether ball joke.
    Who invented tether ball, and when?
    OED and Merriam-Webstger have circa 1900.


   2 November 1897, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 4?, col. 4:
(Also the same day in MARION DAILY STAR, Marion, Ohio--ed.)
      _Tether Ball._
   The new game of tether ball requires two tennis rackets and a ball
fastened to a post about eight feet high by a string.  When evenly matched, the
rounds last a good while, and the game becomes most exciting.  The ball is far from
easy to hit, as it comes with great force in a circular direction, but if you
miss it once, several more chances are afforded you.  The tope's length and
the height of the post should be arranged by rule.  The rules of play are
rather elastic, and may be formulated by the players.  The game has this much in
its favor--it can be played in any ordinary yard, even a small one.

   21 April 1900, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 4, col. 3:
   _Do you play tether ball?_  You should  lots of fun and exercise: a ball
on the end of a long string tied to the top of a long pole; two of you with
tennis racquets try to wind it up in opposite directions.  Sounds simple  try it.
(Wanamaker's of Philadelphia ad--ed.)

   31 October 1900, DAILY HERALD (Delphos, Ohio), pg.2?, col. 2:
      _A New Game._
   Tether ball is in high vogue.  It affords amusement and outdoor exercise.
It is played by means of a pole nine feet long, to which a rope and tennis
ball are attached.  Two play the game; one hitting the ball with a tennis racket
in one direction, while the other hits it in an opposite direction.  Whoever
succeeds in winding the rope entirely around the top of the pole has won the
game.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 07:57:52 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:57:52 EDT
Subject: Masamora, Achota, Boya, Bollo, Arracacha, Mochilla, Ruana (1838)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.035752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BOGOTA
IN 1836-7
by J. Steuart
New-York: Harper & Brothers
1838

   No one from OED has read this book in its 165 years?


Pg. 78:  When seven miles distant from Nare we reached the bodega
(storehouse), a very neat brick building, the roof covered with tiles, having a house and
garden attached for the accommodation of the keeper.

Pg. 121:  If a person wishes to send a hundred doubloons to the seaboard, he
must place them in one of the little bags of the country, called mochillas;...
   (The revised OED has 1856 for mochila--ed.)

Pg. 150:  _Living._--Their style of cooking is peculiarly their own.  I speak
thus, as I have never been in Spain nor in any other Spanish province before.
 (Pg. 151--ed.)  If it be Spanish, then Heaven defend me from all such.
Their chocolate, and a dish called "masamora," with any of their thousand and one
"dulces" or preserves, are all that can be mentioned in favour of native
cookery.  In the houses of the more fashionable and opulent, the dishes generally
are a mixture of the French and English; more, however, of the former.  But the
daily rations of a peon (labourer) are soon described.  If he keeps house,
his breakfast consists of chocolate.  A soup is boiled rice, and a vegetable
like the parsnip, called arracacha, all simmered together in a flood of
hog's-lard, the whole highly coloured with a pod they call achota, which produces a
yellow colour; a handful of cumin-seed is added to this, and then they have
prepared their general breakfast.  Sometimes, when circumstances admit, they add to
their rice a few pieces of meat.  Bread, being high, is seldom used, but its
place is supplied by either a sort of hard dumpling, made of Indian cornmeal,
called "boya," or the cassava bread.  Another great national dish is that of
"masamora."  This is a thick soup, made of Indian cornmeal, potatoes boiled to
a jelly, onions, and pieces of beef; which, when free from the cumin-seed, is
a most excellent dish.  There is no such thing as a fork used by  this class
of the people, and but, perhaps, a single knife at table, which serves not the
purposes of eating, but is used for scraping vegetables and preparing their
food; a spoon, and a liberal use of nature's own flesh-forks, constitute all
their table cutlery.  The plantain is never out of the houses of either rich or
poor.  They eat it fried, roasted, boiled, and raw; and it is their great
staple, though not to be compared with those on the Magdalena.  Chicha is in
general use.  This is peculiarly the drink of the poor, although I have seen even
foreigners use it.  It is kept in huge earthen jars, wrapped round with green
hide (Pg. 152--ed.)  to preserve them; it sells for about four or six cents a
quart.  A large tituma (calabash) is filled, which is passed round from one to
another throughout even a large company!

Pg. 152:  From eight to nine he breakfasts on arracacha soup, or rice well
greased; fried eggs, seasoned with garlic; boiled potatoes, bread, and a dish of
fried beef, which is cut into small strips, without a particle of fat,
seasoned well with cumin-seed and garlic, and so over-done that the juices of the
meat are entirely dried up; this they eat with a spoon.  These people are also
fond of a dish called bollo; it looks like an apple-dumpling, and is made with
pieces of pork, (Pg. 153--ed.) and seasoned like the dried beef, and well
smothered in hog's-lard, all enclosed in a thick paste and boiled.  The coffee and
chocolate are not drank with their meat, but immediately afterward, and then
the same small cup is made use of as in the morning.

Pg. 154:  ...a shirt of the same material, and over all a short ruana of the
coarsest cotton or woolen cloth, sometimes parti-coloured and sometimes plain
drab.  This national coat is from one and a half to two and a half yards
square, with an aperture left in the centre just of sufficient width to admit the
head.
(OED has 1942 for "ruana"--ed.)

Pg. 156:  Another class, called the "cachacao," or dandies, have cast aside
the national ruana except when they ride,...

Pg, 168:  The civil arm is the only check upon the grossness and presumption
of the indolent hive; and  government is certainly commendable for the
promptitude and tact with which they have, within a few years, clipped the wings of
these gallinazas (a Bogota nickname for friars, meaning turkey-buzzards).

Pg. 234:  La Mesa and Chuachi are the two places in "tierra caliente" mostly
resorted to by invalids, or by those who wish to spend a month or so away from
the city during the prevalence of the blustering, chilling gales, termed here
"paramos."


(NOTES ON COLOMBIA (1827) and TRAVELS IN SOUTH AMERICA (1825) tomorrow.  I
got parking tickets to do--ed.)


From stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM  Fri Oct 10 11:11:39 2003
From: stephen_lombardo at YAHOO.COM (s. . .)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:11:39 -0700
Subject: Futurity
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.041139.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi all. I have a question for you on the different
semantics involved in the two following sentences.
What is your perception of each statement as far as
futurity is concerned:

- Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'LL
paint it yellow.

- Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'S
GOING TO paint it yellow.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this
aspect-related ?predicament?.

Pete Lombardo

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 10 13:04:09 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 09:04:09 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.090409.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:31:14 -0400, Fred Shapiro <
> fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> quotes:
>
> musicologist (OED3 1915)
>
> 1893-4 _Proceedings of the Musical Association_ (20th Sess.) 47
> The temperament of the Indian scale has from time to time attracted
> considerable attention amongst acousticians and musicologists.

I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to refer to
the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best of my
knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is used in
music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.

       - Jim Landau


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:28:29 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:28:29 -0700
Subject: Antedating of "Musicologist"
In-Reply-To: <b9.37603062.2cb80849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.072829.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 06:04 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to
> refer to
> the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best
> of my
> knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is
> used in
> music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.

this is exactly backwards.  the musicological term is "temperament",
and "temper" refers only to an emotional state.

randel's New Harvard Dictionary of Music has an entry for "temperament"
and doesn't mention "temper".  meanwhile, isacoff's 2002 book about
selecting the tones of a musical scale is entitled Temperament.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:52:04 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:52:04 -0700
Subject: Futurity
In-Reply-To: <20031010111139.63156.qmail@web40605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.075204.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 04:11 AM, Pete Lombardo wrote:

> Hi all. I have a question for you on the different
> semantics involved in the two following sentences.
> What is your perception of each statement as far as
> futurity is concerned:
>
> - Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'LL
> paint it yellow.
>
> - Mary Ann has decided to repaint her bedroom. She'S
> GOING TO paint it yellow.

this is a standard topic in grammars, both scholarly and pedagogical,
of english.  the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language has a
compact discussion on pp. 211-2.  CGEL identifies three differences in
interpretation: "be going to" has a greater focus on the time
associated with the matrix (as opposed to complement) verb; the
preterite of "be going to" doesn't entail that the complement situation
was actualized; and "be going to" conveys intention, while "will"
conveys willingness or volition.  check out their examples.

while both examples above could be used to convey a simple prediction
about the future or a report of a decision made by mary ann to take
some action, the first sentence is more likely to have the first
interpretation, and the second the second.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 10 14:55:27 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:55:27 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Lyricist"
In-Reply-To: <b9.37603062.2cb80849@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.105527.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

lyricist (OED, 2., 1909)

1904 _Wash. Post_ 24 Feb.  In one instance only has he rewritten the words
to a song.  This was wise, as the amateur lyricist is a person to be
shunned.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Oct 10 15:15:14 2003
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:15:14 +0100
Subject: Antedating of "Lyricist"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310101053080.19205-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.161514.0100.>

> lyricist (OED, 2., 1909)
>
> 1904 _Wash. Post_ 24 Feb.  In one instance only has he rewritten the
> words to a song.  This was wise, as the amateur lyricist is a person to
> be shunned.

I can't improve on that in relation to songs, but I have just
accidentally antedated the poetic sense, which OED dates from 1881:

1875 Scribners Monthly May 105/2 For our part, we are content with a
much less range for her, believing her to be a fine and faithful
lyricist, and though to some extent visibly affected by Emerson, yet
hardly injuriously so,--if not a great original power, still a figure
unique among women poets, and, we think, the strongest woman poet yet
arisen in America. [Via MoA, Cornell]

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Oct 10 15:41:22 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:41:22 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.114122.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore

>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm (emphasis added)
  As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida, Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis, they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging wave of popular disgust. 
"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or two.
Se?n Fitzpatrick


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Oct 10 18:46:51 2003
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:46:51 +0000
Subject: temper / temperament
In-Reply-To: <20031010142836.1CE79541A@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.184651.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any scale (or instrument so tuned) whose intervals deviate from the Pythagorean
ratios (octave=2/1, fifth=3/2, fourth=4/3, etc) is said to be "tempered".  The
title of J. S. Bach's set of preludes and fugues in all 24 keys to be played on
a single instrument is usually translated into English as "The Well-tempered
Clavier".  The system by which these ratios are adjusted is called
the "temperament".  Modern pianos are tuned using "equal temperament" in which
all half-steps have a ratio of the twelfth root of two to one.  When
tuners "lay the temperament" they tune 12 notes in the middle of the piano.
After that, they tune octaves going up and down from the middle.  Other
temperaments are sometimes used on organs, harpsichords, or when requested by
early music performers.

Background:  the problem is that the Pythagorean ratios don't add up.  If you
start at A-27.5Hz and double the frequency seven times, you will get a
different frequency (3520Hz) from the one you get if you go up by fifths (A-E-B-
F#-...-G-D-A) using a 3/2 ratio (3568Hz).  This was one of Pythagorus' dirty
little secrets.  A temperament is a fudging of ratios to deal with that
difference.

--Tom "married to a piano tuner" Kysilko

Quoting "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Antedating of "Musicologist"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 06:04 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> > I find it interesting that the quote uses the word "temperament" to
> > refer to
> > the selection of notes used in the scale, because TTBOMK (to the best
> > of my
> > knowledge) the correct word is "temper" and the word "temperament" is
> > used in
> > music only to refer to the emotional stability of musicians.
>
> this is exactly backwards.  the musicological term is "temperament",
> and "temper" refers only to an emotional state.
>
> randel's New Harvard Dictionary of Music has an entry for "temperament"
> and doesn't mention "temper".  meanwhile, isacoff's 2002 book about
> selecting the tones of a musical scale is entitled Temperament.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 02:33:41 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:33:41 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <FRI.10.OCT.2003.213341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
of hunkering down in a bunker.

>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>investigation is a delicate matter.


Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
really a straightforward matter.
If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).

   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
the semester.

   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
"phone was off the hook."

   There are loads of examples.

Gerald Cohen


At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Se?n Fitzpatrick wrote:
>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>
>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>>(emphasis added)
>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>wave of popular disgust.
>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>two.
>Se?n Fitzpatrick


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct 11 05:10:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:10:57 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.011057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the telephone sense.

M-W strangely has 1952.
OED has 1956 for the telephone sense, although they have the 1908 Sears
catalogue with an asterisk.

Using Ancestry.com, from the Helena(MT.) Independent, September 30, 1930,
p.5(I think), col. 6-7(An Ad):

     Business houses should make sure they have adequate representation in
the yellow pages, the classified section, which is a complete Buyer' Guide.

I didn't go back any farther on ancestry.  Too tired.  May do more later.
The term was commonly found almost every year from 1952 back to the early
40's.
SC


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 13:38:38 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:38:38 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.083838.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sending this to the American Name Society as well as to ads-l. ---

    George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
raises the question" Where did this name come from?

    I'd guess: from French "jaser" (= chatter). So "Jazzer" (as a
name) would originally have been "Chatterer/Chatterbox."

    Is there any scholarly literature to confirm or refute this suggestion?

Gerald Cohen
P.S. to ANS: Thanks for the helpful replies on "Testaverde."



>Date:         Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:24:09 -0400
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>Subject:      jazzer, 1896
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as
>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.
>
>Quickly consulting some indexes to the names in the late 19th
>C/early 20th C U. S. censuses, I find that the name Jazzer or Jasser
>appeared in Alabama in 1870 and in New York in 1900.  In 1910, in
>the NYC section of the census, there were 6 Jassers and 1 Jazzer.
>The name did not show up in Massachusetts census indexes.  These
>indexes are to the names of the heads of households listed in the
>notebooks the census-takers carried about.  Nearly all of the
>notebooks from the 1890 census were destroyed in a fire very many
>years ago, and the notebooks from the 1870, 1880, 1900 & 1910
>censues for some of the states have not yet been indexed.  It's
>obviously a very uncommon name, but a few people carried it in this
>country before 1896.
>RLIN shows no book by a Jazzer, but a dozen or so by Jasser, most in
>German, but it seems also possiible as an Arab name.
>
>So perhaps the contriver of this joke, not wanting to use the usual
>names for his interlocutors, such as He & She, or Pat & Mike, &c.,
>used a couple of names he had somewhere come upon and remembered as
>inherently comical.
>
>If so, then it saves us the problem of contriving a history of the
>word "Jazz" that would account for its giving rise in 1896 in
>Massachusetts to a nickname apparently meaning "One who jazzes".
>Which would be a blessing.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:12:09 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:12:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
In-Reply-To: <005401c38fb6$0ee1ba40$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.111209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:10 AM -0400 10/11/03, Sam Clements wrote:
>In the telephone sense.
>
>M-W strangely has 1952.
>OED has 1956 for the telephone sense, although they have the 1908 Sears
>catalogue with an asterisk.
>
>Using Ancestry.com, from the Helena(MT.) Independent, September 30, 1930,
>p.5(I think), col. 6-7(An Ad):
>
>      Business houses should make sure they have adequate representation in
>the yellow pages, the classified section, which is a complete Buyer' Guide.
>
>I didn't go back any farther on ancestry.  Too tired.  May do more later.
>The term was commonly found almost every year from 1952 back to the early
>40's.
>SC

This reminds me of another claim for local primacy (in addition to
pizza and hamburger, both sadly debunked, and frisbee, which remains
open):  I've heard it claimed that New Haven is the home of the first
phone book (not yellow pages), called "The Book of Names".  When I
first came here in '81, they were still calling the local phone book
The Book of Names, but now it's just called the Greater New Haven
Directory.

Larry


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 19:36:46 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:36:46 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.143646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To ads-l and ans-l:

In the 1896 published joke, the two speakers are Jazzer and Gozlin.
Jazzer, if literally "Chatterbox," would be an appropriate name for
someone engaged in light-hearted banter.
   Meanwhile, the name Gozlin closely resembles "gosling" (= a young
goose; a foolish or callow person), even though the name reportedly
derives from the French personal name Goscelin "just." So for the
1896 joke-writer, apparently the two participants were 'Chatterbox'
and 'Young Goose/Foolish or Callow Person.'

   Again, appropriate names for a humorous item.

Gerald Cohen

P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name on the order of "Jones."
Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous item, almost
certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks of the
mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik unearthed and which
possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the word "jinx."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 17:49:47 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:49:47 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.134947.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here's a trademark from some company in New Haven, CT.


Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL YELLOW PAGES

Goods and Services  IC 016. US 038. G & S: TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES. FIRST USE:
19831118. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19831118
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73460926
Filing Date January 16, 1984
Supplemental Register Date  March 21, 1985
Registration Number 1352259
Registration Date   July 30, 1985
Owner   (REGISTRANT) SOUTHERN NEW ENGLAND TELEPHONE COMPANY, THE CORPORATION
CONNECTICUT 227 CHURCH STREET NEW HAVEN CONNECTICUT 06506
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  NED W. BRANTHOVER
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    SUPPLEMENTAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 15:30:20 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:30:20 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Antedating=20of=20"yellow?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20pages"=20(1930)?=
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.113020.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Per "rhdonnelley.com", the website of the Reuben H. Donnelley Corporation, a
large directory publsher, Mr. Donnelley published the first classified
directory in Chicago in 1881. It is unclear from their site whether it was on yellow
paper or was called the "yellow pages." Perhaps someone should ask them what
their corporate archives reveal.



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:19:52 2003
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 11:19:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bbadcd6d04ed@[130.132.231.241]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.111952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>This reminds me of another claim for local primacy (in addition to
>pizza and hamburger, both sadly debunked, and frisbee, which remains
>open):  I've heard it claimed that New Haven is the home of the first
>phone book (not yellow pages), called "The Book of Names".  When I
>first came here in '81, they were still calling the local phone book
>The Book of Names, but now it's just called the Greater New Haven
>Directory.
>

I have a vague recollection the Alexander Graham Bell museum in
Baddeck, Nova Scotia, run by the Canadian National Park Service, has
some piece or another supporting this claim, perhaps a copy of said
phone book. I could be vaguer if I tried, I suppose.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 19:09:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:13 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.140913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is to both ads-l and ans-l. --

   In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.

    One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

    So, if humorous French names were possible on this side of the Atlantic,
it's not impossible that someone received the moniker "Chatterbox"
("Jaseur") by  a French speaker, and non-French-speakers altered it
slightly to "Jazzer."

Gerald Cohen


>Date:         Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:00:05 -0400
>From: Marc Picard <picard at vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
>To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
>Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>I'm sending this to the American Name Society as well as to ads-l. ---
>>
>>     George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
>>raises the question" Where did this name come from?
>>
>>     I'd guess: from French "jaser" (= chatter). So "Jazzer" (as a
>>name) would originally have been "Chatterer/Chatterbox."
>>
>>     Is there any scholarly literature to confirm or refute this suggestion?
>>
>>
>If the name came from French, the origin would have to be jaseur
>'chatterbox, gossip'. However, Jaseur is not a French surname so it
>can't be the origin of Jazzer. In fact, Jazzer is probably not a
>real surname either, or else it was the nonce adaptation of the
>Arabic name Jazzar.
>
>Marc Picard
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 11 15:41:12 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:41:12 -0500
Subject: Bruce Kraig's planned "hot dog" book--(clarification)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.104112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I've recently been in touch with Bruce Kraig concerning our mutual
interest in hot dogs (study, not eating; I ate a hot dog only once in
my life, and it made me sick.)
    An advertisement for Kraig's book makes a gaffe: implying that
Kraig believes in the thoroughly discredited Polo Grounds/TAD/Harry
Stevens origin of the term.
The advertisement also gives the incorrect impression that the
publication of the book is imminent. Actually, the publication date
is uncertain.
    Advertisers evidently march to a different drummer than scholars.
With eyebrows being raised in several private e-mails, I asked Kraig
for permission (granted) to clarify the matter to ads-l.
    Below my signoff is the entry for Kraig's book as I will present
it in a "hot dog" bibliography  (working paper) to appear within a
few months. It's part of a planned book on "hot dog" which will list
Barry Popik, David Shulman and me as its authors, although I assume
sole responsibility for any errors or other shortcomings it may
contain.

Gerald Cohen
P.S. Kraig also clarified to me that he gives all due credit to Barry
Popik for Barry's important work on "hot dog."


[from: draft of "A Compiled Bibliography on "Hot Dog."]:

Kraig, Bruce (forthcoming; date of publication still uncertain). Man
Bites Dog. Verve Press. -- An advertisement for the book
incorrectly gives the impression that Kraig supports the Polo
Grounds/TAD/Harry Stevens origin of hot dog. He does not. The book,
when it appears, will be a commentary on the social and cultural
history of hot dogs, hot dog stands, and related themes--rather than
a comprehensive history of the hot dog. A good dose of hot-dog
history will be included though. My thanks to Bruce Kraig for this
clarification.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 11 18:03:49 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:03:49 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
In-Reply-To: <p04310100bbadb4adf2dd@[131.151.65.140]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.140349.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A   George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
>raises the question" Where did this name come from?

>You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
>>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
>>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that in as
>>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
>>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
>>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.

I reviewed some jokes taken from the "Roxbury Gazette". Character names
included:

Jazzer & Gozlin [sic] (1896) [George Thompson's joke]
Grazlin (1896)
Dashem & Kasham (1896)
Bablow & Gadwin (1899)
Dozber & Jazlin (1895)
Bloozin & Gablow (1898)
Tablow & Scadman (1898)

and even

Mrs. Xrays & Mrs. Raysex

etc., etc.

On another note, jokes in the "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" in the same period
included our old friend Jinks quite often, including "Jinks", "Jinx", "Jinx
and Wickwire", "Jinks and Binks", "Jinks and Blinks", "Jinks and Winks",
"Mr. and Mrs. Jinks", "Rev. Mr. Jinks", "Jinks and Filkins", "I. Jinks"
[i.e., "high jinks" probably], etc., etc. The names do not seem to be
correlated with material in the jokes; the names are essentially arbitrary
in most cases IMHO, perhaps chosen for peculiar sounds. "Jinks" looks to be
one of the most popular, and I take it to be an "everyman" name like
"Jones", perhaps with some humorous freight from "highjinks".

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 11 22:00:57 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:00:57 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
In-Reply-To: <p04310105bbae08f02ff5@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.180057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name on the order of "Jones."
>Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous item, almost
>certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks of the
>mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik unearthed and which
>possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the word "jinx."

I disagree, as I've said here before: in the poem in question (humorous
doggerel) "Jinks" refers not to a printer's devil but to some peripheral
nonentity or unspecified person, as "Jinks" (or "Jones") often does. This
poem was just one earlier example of light use of the arbitrary name
"Jinks" IMHO. I don't think that the occurrence of the name Jinks in a
single obscure poem which also included a printer's devil (= printer's
errand-boy, essentially) was likely to engender a general popular
association of the name Jinks with any sort of devil or errand-boy or
anything else.

Here is Ware (1909) defining the colloquialism "Jinks the Barber",
supposedly dating from 1850: "Secret informant. Idea suggested by the
general barber being such a gossiper. Jinks is a familiar name for an
easy-going man." I can't vouch for the analysis, but I infer that the name
Jinks was probably not globally -- or very widely -- associated either with
printing or with anything diabolical or inauspicious, either in 1850 or in
1909.

Furthermore, of a dozen or more "Jinks et al." jokes in the "Eagle" (on
line), I see no tendency for the character named Jinks to be in any
particular role; nor do I see other characters with names which would
connote anything ominous.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 11 23:48:04 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 19:48:04 -0400
Subject: Filipino cuisine (1929); Horse Opera (1923); Ivy League (1935)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.194804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FILIPINO CUISINE

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES now appears to be up to July 1938.
   There are some "Oscar" citations, but no explanation.
   I've been searching for Pacific cuisine (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Filipino, Vietnamese).  It'll get a lot better in the next 30 years...Where is my "Zombie"?  (A Hawaiian/San Francisco drink, made popular at the 1939 New York World's Fair.)


      LEE SIDE o'L.A.
       Lee Shippey.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1929.                   p. A4 (1 page) :
   The menu included pansit, sarciadong manoks, trotillang hipon, adobong baboy, asadang baboy, all names which no Spaniard or Mexican could be expected to translate.  They were the Filipino names for noodles, Filipino style; spring chicken with sauce, shrimp omelet, pork with seasoned sauce and pork chops, Filipino style.  Rice was served instead of bread or tortillas, the latter being little known in the Philippines.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HORSE OPERA

   OED has 1927 for "horse opera," meaning "western" motion picture.  Someone swiped the RHHDAS H-O here at NYU, and I hope it wasn't that "best lexicographer" guy.


      FLASHES
       Grace Kingsley.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 6, 1923.                   p. II11 (1 page):
      Colin Campbell is about to start work on "The Grail," a new Fox feature, which promises to rival "The Spoilers," which Campbell made some sever years ago, and which is again to be done by Hampton.
   "'The Grail' is a western story," explained Mr. Campbell, the other day, "but it isn't a 'horse opera.'  It is a very big, human story."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IVY LEAGUE

   Another 1935 citation.


      Bill Henry Says
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 11, 1935.                   p. 7 (1 page):
      DETERMINED to have at least one big track meet in the East in which some rude California college won't gallop away with the championship the newly organized and appropriately named Ivy League holds a matinee on the sacred sward of Princeton today.  Historic institutions represented are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Pennsylvania, Columbia, Cornell and Dartmouth, which are already organized in basketball and baseball.


(OT:  Yankees win.  I hope it's not too late to wish them "good luck.")


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 00:00:36 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 20:00:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "yellow pages" (1930)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.200036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/11/2003 1:49:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bapopik writes:

> Here's a trademark from some company in New Haven, CT.
>
>
> Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL YELLOW PAGES
>

Lest anyone think "yellow pages" is trademarked, note the trademark here is for "original yellow pages." "Yellow pages" itself is not a registered trademark, having become generic long ago. By the way, "some company in Connecticut" happens to be the local phone company there.

Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 01:04:41 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:04:41 -0400
Subject: Corn Chips (1933) & Tamale ("Frito") Pie (1933)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.210441.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Texas and Frito-Lay claim "corn chips," from 1932.
   There are many LOS ANGELES TIMES citations, starting with 1933..."Tamale pie" is in the database here from 1922, but the following appears to be "Frito pie"..."Corn chips" may or may not have come from Los Angeles, but it has the best dips.


      Home Service Bureau
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 31, 1933.                   p. A7 (1 page):
             _SOMETHING NEW_
      Now we have a brand-new delightful cracker-like food that tastes like more.  It is Cumming's corn chips, to be used as a base for hors d'oeuvres or as an accompaniment for salads, sandwiches, soups and beverages.  Corn chips are made from choice corn and popcorn, and are cooked by a special process.  Many interested homemakers have semt in recipes suggesting several unique ways to use this new product.  They range from tamale pie to canapes, but the real demand comes from those desiring a tasty tidbit or an added touch to any favorite dish.

      Home Service Bureau
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 7, 1933.                   p. A5 (1 page)

      Display Ad 17 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 7, 1933.                   p. A2 (1 page):
Cummings Corn Chips
Mighty good to serve with beer, caviar or cheese...(illegible--ed.)...25c

      Display Ad 25 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 9, 1933.                   p. A4 (1 page)

      REQUESTED RECIPES
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 10, 1933.                   p. A7 (1 page):
          _CUMMINGS TAMALE PIE_
      Five ounces corn chips, 1 1/2 pounds ground round steak, one sliced onion, two buttons garlic (finely chopped,) four tablespoonfuls oil, one tablespoonful chili powder, one can tomato puree, one-half cupful seeded ripe olives, salt and pepper to taste.
      Method:  Brown meat, onion, garlic and chili powder in oil, adding enough water to throroughly brown and keep from burning.  Then add tomatoes and cook slowly until meat is tender and mixture has thickened.  Last add the olives.
      Grind corn chips in food chopper or meat grinder until finely crumbled.  Butter the bottom and sides of a casserole or baking dish and line with crumb mixture, packing closely to make a firm crust.
      Pour a layer of the chili meat mixture on the layer of corn chips and alternate layers.  Top baking dish with corn chips and sprinkle with grated cheese.  Place casserole in oven and bake rather slowly for about thirty minutes.  Serve piping hot as soon as removed from oven.


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 12 02:21:31 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:21:31 -0400
Subject: MY final antedating of "yellow pages" (1927)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.222131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was close with my 1930 cite, but just too tired to do the final work.
It's 1927.

>From the Decatur(IL.) Daily Review, August 5, 1927, p. 8, col. 3-5 :

[Again, an ad for the telephone company.]

     The re-arrangement of listings in the New Classified Business Directory
makes it easier for you to quickly find the buying information you want.
      Just turn to the first two yellow pages in the middle of your
directory for full information  as to how the Classified Business Section
has been re-arranged and how to use this new Buyer's Guide.

(Illinois Bell)

*Further cites from 1929 would indicate that this was a new concept that Ma
Bell was starting in 6000 cities across the US.

There were no other ancestry hits back as far as 1912.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 02:32:43 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:32:43 -0400
Subject: MY final antedating of "yellow pages" (1927)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.223243.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From ProQuest.


      Front Page 6 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jun 24, 1909.                   p. 1 (1 page) :
   Information of general interest to the public can be had by consulting Information Section, "Yellow Pages," in new Telephone Directory.--Adv.


      Display Ad 2 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 3, 1925.                   p. 3 (1 page):
   ...the yellow pages of the Telephone Book. (...)
THE CHESAPEAKE AND POTOMAC
TELEPHONE COMPANY


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 02:52:04 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:52:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Screwball Comedy"
In-Reply-To: <4F14AEE5.6F4A12A2.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.225204.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

screwball comedy (OED 1938)

1937 _Wash. Post_ 22 Mar. 8_  "THAT MAN'S HERE AGAIN," (Warner Brothers).
Hugh Herbert turns in another screwball comedy of his own familiar type.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:05:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:05:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Supermarket"
In-Reply-To: <200310120252.h9C2q6u10643@pantheon-po04.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.230509.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

supermarket (OED 1933)

1931 _L.A. Times_ 15 Nov. D3  The Norwood supermarket, southeast corner of
Hollywood Boulevard and Normandie avenue, was opened yesterday.  It is
owned by A. C. Jones, formerly president of the Piggly-Wiggly stores.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct 12 03:10:42 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:10:42 -0400
Subject: Filipino cuisine (1929); Horse Opera (1923); Ivy League (1935)
In-Reply-To: <7B1CA2C0.1C3135AA.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.231042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    The menu included pansit, sarciadong manoks, trotillang hipon, adobong
> baboy, asadang baboy, all names which no Spaniard or Mexican could be
> expected to translate.  They were the Filipino names for noodles,
> Filipino style; spring chicken with sauce, shrimp omelet, pork with
> seasoned sauce and pork chops, Filipino style.

"Sarciadong" looks like "salciado", something like "salsa", likely from
Spanish although I don't know the exact formal Spanish equivalent.
"Trotillang" (misspelled, I think) = Spanish "tortilla" = "omelet".
"Adobong" = Spanish "adobo" = "marinade" or so. "Asadang" = Spanish "asada"
= "roast". So most of these terms are 'half Spanish' ... still I guess
they're untranslatable without knowing the native-Philippine parts maybe.
[Are there other Spanish adoptions in there? In my ignorance of Spanish and
Tagalog both, I can't be sure.]

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Oct 12 03:40:04 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:40:04 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104bbadff04db1c@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.234004.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>   In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
>it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
>Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
>not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.
>
>    One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
>Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
>listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
>humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
>there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

There is the name Jasserand (with variants).

As for Beaugenou, I would naively consider the possibility of alteration
from something like Bougnou or Bougeniere ... perhaps an illiterate
immigrant, with illegible handwritten documents from the boonies, needed to
be processed quickly at the port of entry ....

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:48:20 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:48:20 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Seven Sisters"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031011233256.04cd6880@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.234820.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seven Sisters (OED, 6., 1962)

1958 _N.Y. Times_ 18 May 1  One such ["early-decision"] plan was announced
earlier this year by the so-called "seven sisters" -- Barnard, Bryn Mawr, Mount
Holyoke, Radcliffe, Smith, Vassar and Wellesley Colleges.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:55:17 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:55:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Ivy Leaguer"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310112344320.12937-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.235517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ivy Leaguer (OED 1943)

1937 _L.A. Times_ 26 June A13  Perhaps we'll be able to persuade those Ivy
Leaguers of the East to assemble a team representing their section one of
these days.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 12 03:57:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 23:57:58 -0400
Subject: Correction of "Seven Sisters"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310112344320.12937-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.OCT.2003.235758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my antedating of "Seven Sisters" I gave the wrong page number; it
should have been page 80.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 06:03:49 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:03:49 EDT
Subject: Antedating of "Ivy Leaguer"
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.020349.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/11/2003 11:55:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


>
>
> Ivy Leaguer (OED 1943)
>
> 1937 _L.A. Times_ 26 June A13  Perhaps we'll be able to persuade those Ivy
> Leaguers of the East to assemble a team representing their section one of
> these days.
>
>

   22 November 1935, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.9,
col. 2:
   NEW YORK, Nov. 22 (AP).--Not without a wistful wonder where the lightning
will strike next, the football guesser comes out of the weekly huddle with the
following results.
   Princeton-Dartmouth:  A couple of undefeated and untied "ivy leaguers" get
together.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 06:56:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:56:18 EDT
Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole"  (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.025618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COWBOY UP--The rallying cry of the Boston Red Sox.  It's from the rodeo.

MASSHOLE--Used by Yankee fans to describe Red Sox fans (from Massachusetts).
Not in the HDAS.  Google Groups has hits as far back as 1985 and 1986.  See
the multiple entries in the Urban Dictionary:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Masshole


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 08:35:10 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:35:10 EDT
Subject: Basebrawl (1948)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.043510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Basebrawl" is on the cover of Sunday's NEW YORK POST.  The term refers to
those times when you go to a baseball game and a hockey game breaks out.
   Not in Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY, but it should be.  About 600
Google hits.


http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0040150/
BASE BRAWL (1948)
Genre: Animation/Comedy/Short/Family
Runtime: 8 min.


   30 May 1974, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. C-7, col. 1:
_Another "Basebrawl" game?_
    _Martin Dreads_
    _"Beer Night"_
    ARLINGTON, Tex. (AP)--Texas Ranger Manager Billy Martin isn't looking
forward to 10-cent beer night and bat night in Cleveland next week.
    Not after last night's "basebrawl" in which he was decked twice during an
eighth inning free-swinging flurry as Texas downed the Indians 3-0 on Jackie
Brown's three-hitter.


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 16:32:01 2003
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:32:01 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20MY=20final=20anteda?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ting=20of=20"yellow=20pages"=20(1927)?=
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.123201.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Per "rhdonnelley.com", the website of the Reuben H. Donnelley Corporation, a
large directory publisher, Mr. Donnelley published the first classified
directory in Chicago in 1881. It is unclear from their site whether it was on yellow
paper or was called the "yellow pages." Perhaps someone should ask them what
their corporate archives reveal.



Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 17:05:16 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:05:16 EDT
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(possibility of humorous French names)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.130516.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:13 -0500, Gerald Cohen
<gcohen at UMR.EDU> writes:

>     In order to judge whether Jazzer might derive from French jaseur,
>  it's necessary to get a clear idea about the humorous U.S. or
>  Canadian surnames of French origin. In other words, the surname might
>  not exist in France but be present on this side of the Atlantic.
>
>      One possible example: A man named Nicholas Beaugenou was born in
>  Canada, 1741, and eventually moved to St. Louis. Beaugenou is not
>  listed in Dauzat's dictionary of French names and is very possibly of
>  humorous origin; its literal meaning is "Beautiful Knee." Similarly,
>  there was a man named Beaupied ("Beautiful Foot").

Another possibility is that M. Beaugenou was a Native American, or perhaps a
meti, who really did have the Native American name "Beautiful Knee".  There
was a well-known contemporary of his, an Iroquois (Seneca) religious figure
named "Handsome Lake" (1735-1815),  so I suppose "Beautiful Knee" is plausible.

And don't forget a man named "Swollen Foot", better remembered as Oedipus
Rex.  ("oedi" cognate to "(o)edema", and "pus" as in "octopus").

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 17:25:10 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:25:10 EDT
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.132510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:41:22 -0400, Se?n Fitzpatrick
<grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> quoted from the LA Weekly

"By bunkering down with the  discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis, they
wound up defending an indefensible status quo ..."

The more I think about this one, the more I feel this is more than a
confusion between the phonetically similar "hunker down" and "bunker".  "Hunker
(down)" according to MWCD11 is "to settle in or dig in for a sustained period";
however "bunker" (to me at least) suggests "bunker mentality".  Hence if they
merely "hunkered down" then they and Mr. Davis merely decided to wait out the
current hoopla.  To "bunker down" implies that as well as merely waiting things
out, they also adopted an inflexible, reactionary, misanthropic, think up your
own adjective mental attitude.

Without even thinking of Mr. Davis (about whom I do not wish to express an
opinion at the moment), I can come up with a list of a number of politicians who
have "bunkered down".  It's a useful metaphor, and I hereby nominate it for
WOTY (I know.  Fat chance.  But I still like it).

My daughter came up with what I think qualifies as a syntactic blend.
Discussing freeloaders at a soup kitchen, she said that "they were taking abuse of
[the proprietor of the kitchen]."  In this case she was clearly conflating
"taking advantage of" and "abusing".  Apparently she had started to say "taking
advantage" but, just an instant too late, decided that phrase was not forceful
enough and she wished to state that these people were abusing the time and
material of the people running the kitchen.

       - James A. Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 19:59:38 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:59:38 EDT
Subject: Elex; National Palestine Radio (NPR)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.155938.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NATIONAL PALESTINE RADIO (NPR)--The NEW YORK POST had an opinion piece about
the (alleged) anti-Jewish bias at National Public Radio.  A letter to the
editor in today's (Sunday's) newspaper mentions "National Palestine Radio."
   This has been around Google Groups since at least January 1992.
NATIONAL PALESTINIAN RADIO--176 Google hits
NATIONAL PALESTINE RADIO--142 Google hits
   For a comparison, see Andrew Sullivan's interpretation of "BBC."

ELEX--The NEW YORK POST also uses the word "elex" in a headline, meaning
"elections."  I haven't seen this often.  "Elex" is not in the OED.  A trademark
search shows that "elex" most often means "electronics."


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Oct 12 20:21:59 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:21:59 -0500
Subject: The name "Jazzer" -- need for studies on humorous French names
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.152159.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 1:31 PM -0400 10/12/03, Marc Picard wrote:
>>
>I don't understand why you insist on trying to find a French origin
>for jazzer since the word is part of American slang since way back
>when. And it has nothing to do with chattering or gossiping.
>

"Way back when" is 1912 or 1913. (There's an 1831 attestation
"jazzing," written by Lord Palmerston about the French diplomat
Talleyrand, where the term does refer to chattering and almost
certainly is taken directly from French: "I am writing in the
Conference, Matusevic copying out a note for our signature, old
Talley[rand] jazzing and telling stories to Lieven and Esterhazy and
Wessenberg."

   This 1831 attestation is totally isolated and best set aside when
trying to determine the origin of American "jazz.")

   An April 5, 1913 article in the San Francisco Bulletin (newspaper)
refers to "jazz" as a word which just entered the language. Now we
know there was at least some limited used of the term a year earlier.
But that's it. Setting aside the isolated British 1831 attestation,
that's the extent of the early attestations.

    So, when George Thompson spots an 1896 name "Jazzer" (with some
earlier attestations as a name), this "Jazzer" cannot be explained as
deriving from slang "jazz." There are no attestations of slang "jazz"
at this early time.

   This is the motivation for looking elsewhere for the origin of the name, and
French "jaseur" is too promising to be set aside without a close look.
What we really need here is a detailed study of humorous French names
in the U.S. Do any such studies exist? Might "Jazzer" have been a
humorous French name attached to African-Americans? What about
humorous names within the Cajun community? I know for sure that at
least some existed.

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 12 23:21:06 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:21:06 EDT
Subject: Gaucho, Quien sabe, Portena. Camote, Pisco, Canjica, Feojao,
 Compadre (1825)
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.192106.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Actually, I'm not going to all of South America.  Just Guyana, French
Guiana, Suriname, and then Trinidad.
   Two important books.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRAVELS IN SOUTH AMERICA,
DURING THE YEARS 1819-20-21;
CONTAINING AN ACCOUINT OF THE PRESENT STATE OF
BRAZIL, BUENOS AYRES, AND CHILE
by Alexander Caldcleugh
in two volumes
London: John Murray
1825

   OED has ten citations from this book.  We'll look at it in the rare chance
that something was missed.


VOLUME ONE
Pg. 51:  The flour prepared from this root, termed _farinha de pao_. is left
untoucvhed by every description of insect, in itself no small recommendation,
and forms the food of the lower classes.
(OED has 1726, then 1863 for "farinha"--ed.)

Pg. 131:  From 1810, when Velasco was deposed, until 1816, the yerba, or tea
tree, came down in the...(Pg. 132 not copied--ed.)
(OED has 1818, then 1839 for "yerba"--ed.)

Pg. 140:  The houses are generally covered with a flat roof, called _azotea_,
and have no upper stories.
(OED has 1824, then 1844 for "azotea"--ed.)

Pg. 144:  It must be understood that these remarks are confined to the city
and its immediate neighbourhood; for at a short distance, the _Gauchos_, or
country people, seem perfectly free from disease of any kind.
(OED has 1825 for "Gaucho," citing a journal of 1824.  This is 1825, from
1819-1821--ed.)

Pg. 164:  ...tity of the leaves into a gourd, or cup, in which is placed a
reed, or silver tube, called bombilla; hot water is then poured on it, and the
infusion is sucked through the tube.
(OED has 1866 for "bombilla"--ed.)

Pg. 164:  All the yerba now used in the provinces and in Chile, is the
_palo_, or Portuguese, which, being half made up of stalks, yileds no flavour
whatever.
(FWIW.   OED has 1838 for "palo blanco" and 1854 for "palo verde"--ed.)

Og, 170:  The female part of the family is alone seen, or sometimes the
gentleman of the house, but generally both the fathers and brothers are either
forming part of another _tertulia_, or talking politics in the coffee-house.
(OED has 1785, then 1828 for "tertulia"--ed.)

Pg. 172:  The mode of _lassooing_ horses with a long (Pg. 173--ed.) thong and
noose has been often described; it is performed with surprising dexterity.
(OED has 1807 for "lasso" and 1838 for "lassooing"--ed.)

Pg. 238:  The alforges, (Pg. 239--ed.) or saddle bags, were fitted with an
abundance of yerba, Chinese tea, a little sugar, and some biscuits.  A very
large parcel of segars was put in for the demands of the guide, Chiclana, and the
postboys.  A pair of _chifles_, or large horns, full of brandy, which my guide
soon informed me were excessively leaky, were added to the rest.
(OED has "alforge" from 1611.  OED does not have "chifles," which is also the
name of s chips company--ed.)

Pg. 248:  ...fortunately, we obtained some milk for breakfast, and afterwards
a little boiled beef (asado) and broth.

Pg. 249:  Every one is fond of answering in this country, _Quien sabe_,
pleading ignorance to the simplest questions.
(OED has 1836 for "Quien sabe"--ed.)

Pg. 260:  Man particularly civil:--sat down at able with him and his family
and ate some caldo and asado.

Pg. 273:  The Spanish _refran_ came continually to my recollection, _largo
rezo, poca comida_, and I dreaded the appearance of a solitary dish.  I most
fortunately was mistaken; for there was an excellent supper of broiled beef,
broth and boiled maize, called _omita_.

Pg. 286:  The public walk, or _alameda_, is well laid out, and commands a
majestic view of the mountains.
(OED has 1797, 1807, 1843, and 1845 for "alameda"--ed.)

Pg. 249:  The grape has been always cultivated with success, but the wine is
generally of indifferent quality.  That kind which is made near Conception,
and called _vino de penco_, is considered the best;--it approaches more nearly
to Malaga than to any other wine known in Europe.  The fig and the olive are of
superior flavor and most abundant; peaches, melons, water-melons, and
strawberries, are among the variety of fruits which abound.  From a large palm a kind
of honey is produced be boring to the heart of the tree called _miel de
palma_; it is dark coloured, and resembles molasses and water.

Pg. 361:  They mix with it pumpkins and Indian corn, with large quantities of
_aji_, or Chilian pepper, together with some of the _mani_ (arachis
hypogaea), which is considered highly stimulating.
(OED has "mani" from 1604.  "Aji"?--ed.)

Pg. 371:  The _portenas_ (ladies of Buenos Ayres) living in St. Jago, mix
little with those of Chile, and even in a ball-room stand together and eye the
others distainfully.
(OED has 1884 for "Porteno"--ed.)

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 62:  The ladies, when concealed in this dress, are termed _tapadas_, and
the appearance of so many in the streets is not a little extraordinary.
("Tapada" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 74:  The mixture of whites and Indians has now become less common, and
the progeny of the negro and Indian, called _chino_, is seldom met with.
("Chino" is not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 82:  The _camotes_, or sweet potatoes, grow as large as in Rio de
Janeiro, and seemed to be held in great estimation in Chile;...
(OED has 1842 for "camote"--ed.)

Pg. 83:  ...but one fruit, the _chirimoya_, is of such admirable taste that
it deserves a more particular description.  The term is qquichua (sic), and is
derived from _chiri_ cold, and _muhu_ seed, or cold seeded, an epithet to
which it is fully entitled.
(OED has 1760-1772, then 1858 for "cherimoya"--ed.)

Pg. 91:  At Pisco, famous for its brandy manufacture;...
(OED has 1849 for "pisco"--ed.)

Pg. 103:  My guide was now occupied in keeping the people together and
collecting more provisions for the journey,--chicha, charque or dried meat, fowls,
pork and bread, in sufficiency for fourteen days, travellers often being shut
up for that time in a casucha; but above all the guide was careful to provide a
(Pg. 104--ed.) large quantity of _aji_* or Chile pepper, put into small
bottle gourds, after being reduced to powder between two stones, and onions and
garlick in profusion.  The lower class in Chile are very partial to all these
vegetables, and to _mani_ (the flour of the underground bean, arachis hypogea),
which they consider to be of a stimulating nature, as I have mentioned before.
*This word is considered in the West Indies of Haytian origin.
(OED has 1760-1772, then 1845 for "charqui."  OED does not have
"casucha"--ed.)

Pg, 126:  The favourite dish, _carne con cuero_, was on the table.  This
roast beef is so expensive, on account of a part of the hide being enveloped round
it while dressing, that it is only met with at the first tables.

Pg. 138:  The maize, which was of two sorts, yellow and white, was just
housed.  it forms the chief article of subsistence all over the province of
Cordova, which i Had now entered.  They make from it a dish called _maizamora_,* by
simply bruising it with a little water, by which it is deprived of the husks,
and then by long continued boiling.
*The canjica of the Bazilians.
("Canjica" is not in the OED.  There are 7,160 Google hits--ed.)

Pg. 142:  The algoraba, which is, I believe, an acacia, is a tree of great
value, particularly the _algaroba blanca_.  The pods are made by fermentation
into a kind of chicha or drink, and it serves as well to feed cattle when the
maize crop is deficient.
(OED has 1845 for "algarroba"--ed.)

Pg. 184:  ..._fazenda, or farm...
(A first citation in OED.  Yes, they actually got one--ed.)

Pg. 185:  The variety called the Canjam* is mostly in use for making sugar,
which is almost entirely clayed.  The clay is obtained by washing the
decomposed granite which every where abounds.  The other variety, called _criolho_, is
mostly used for making spirits; it is more juicy and less sweet than the
former.
*Cayenne.
(OED does not have either "Canjam: or "criolho"--ed.)

Pg. 190:  ...and the _plica_ of vegetation on each side was such, that it was
impossible to turn aside.
(OED has 1866 for this meaning of "plica"--ed.)

Pg. 191:  It consisted of two or three cakes of coarse brown sugar, called
rapadoeira, and a little _cachasse_, or common spirit.
(OED has 1846 for "rapadura."  OED does not have "cachasse"--ed.)

Pg. 199:  In fact, there is little or nothing to be got in these villages;
the mule drivers live on feijoes or beans and pork, which they carry with them,
(Pg. 200--ed.) and the inhabitants have little more than is sufficient for
their own consumption.
(OED has 1857 for "feijao"--ed.)

Pg. 200:  Their huts are formed or mud, with a covering of broad leaves; the
better description have a ceiling formed of split canes, called _taquarra_.
("Taquarra" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 239:  It consisted of meat, (_charqueado_, jerked,) fried with greens; a
large dish of _ungu_ (boiled Indian corn flour); a dish of salted pork
(_lombo_) broiled; a plate of rice; _canjica_ (boiled Indian corn without the husk);
and a dish called fuba, which is Indian corn (Pg. 240--ed.) flour stirred up
with hot water.  Marmalade and Figueras wine completed the repast.
("Lombo," "canjica," "fuba," and "figueras" are all not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 269:  He plants mandioca, rice and feijoes (beans).  He has tried wheat,
but found that it was always destroyed by ferrugem (smut).

Pg. 280:  There were only two decent looking houses in the place, one of them
of course belonged to the _vigario_, and I was confirmed in the idea by
seeing some white ladies in the balconies, nieces or comadres,* it is to be
presumed.
   *The term _comadre_ is applied to the female by those who stand sponsois
with her; she is _madrinha_ or godmother to the infant, and _comadre_ to them.
Ever after great intimacy exists between the _compadres_ and _comadres_; they
become related in the eye of the church, and a marriage could not be
solemnized between them without much difficulty.
(The revised OED has 1971 for "madrina"?  OED has 1834 for "compadre."  OED
has no entry for "comadre"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NOTES ON COLUMBIA,
TAKEN IN THE YEARS 1822-3,
WITH AN ITNERARY OF THE ROUTE FROM CARACAS TO BOTOTA
By An Officer of the United States' Army (Richard Bache--ed.)
Philadelphia: H. C. Carey & I. Lea
1827

Pg. 80:  Some taste and much ingenuity are discoverable in the pavements,
particularly in those before the entrances of public buildings, and along the
passages leading to the _patios_, or court yards, of some private houses.
(OED has 1828 for "patio"--ed.)

Pg. 86:  ...a fruit called by the English sour-sop, haddocks, pomegranates,
alligator-pears, the delicious _chilimoyas_, grapes, figs, apples, peaches,
plums, apricots, &c., water and musk-melons, tamarinds, guavas, pineapples, and
many others.  The vegetables are, the potatoe, good, but small, beets,
parsnips, carrots, cabbages, fine cauliflowers, lettuce, squashes, yams, artichokes,
turnips, the sweet potatoe, and a yellow root called _apio_.  The top of the
apio is precisely, in appearance, taste, and smell, like our celery, but the
root, which is eaten boiled, is very different, having the appearance of a sweet
potatoe.
("Apio" is not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 86:  You find, also, fresh beef and pork, separated from the bone and cut
into chunks; _carne seca_, (Pg. 87--ed.) (dried beef,) cut in long strips;
this is sometimes prepared with a little salt, or is slightly smoked; and is by
no means inviting.  The mutton, though small, is excellent; some fish, but no
veal, is brought to market.  Hog's lard, called _manteca_, wrapped in plantain
leaves, is sold in great abundance, and, as well as garlic and onions, is
used excessively in cooking.
(OED does not have "carne seca."  OED has "manteca" from 1622--ed.)

Pg. 87:  You also find a mixture of mucilage and molasses,  called _papelon_,
which is much relished by the lower classes of people, and eaten by them like
cheese; fermented with water, it yields the intoxicating drink _guarapo_.
Bread, made of maize, is called _arepa_; while that formed into large disks,
eighteen inches in diameter and about a fourth of an inch thick, made from the
_manioe_ root, is called _casava_.  This is as little relished by a North
American, as the _arepa_, or corn bread, is by a European.
("Papelon" and "arepa" are not in the OED?--ed.)

Pg. 88:  coarse cottons, mats, straw hats, strings of beads, baskets, coffee
bags, &c., ropes, twines, pouches, harness for bat mules, and a kind of shoes
or sandals called _paragaters_, made of the fibre of the leaf of the Agave
Americana, or flowering aloe.
("Paragater" is not in the OED--ed.)

Pg. 162:  The maize prepared in this manner is called _boyo_.  Many seem
contented with a small cake in its raw state, washed down with a glass of water,
for a breakfast.  It is, however, more frequently made into flat cakes and
fried in the favourite _manteca_, or simply baked before the fire, like our
hoe-cake.
(OED does not have "boyo"--ed.)

Pg. 187:  This consisted of a chunk of _carne seca_, (dried beef,) and bread,
washed down with a little _aguardiente_.

Pg. 215:  We heard that the President was hourly expected to arrive at
Bogota, and being desirous to witness his _entre_, we hurried on, notwithstanding
the pressing invitations of our kind hosts, to witness the _fiesta_, and arrived
at Paypa--twenty miles, at 5 P. M.--thirty-two miles.
(OED has 1844 for "fiesta"--ed.)

Pg. 258:  The plantain is the substitute for bread, it may be eaten either
raw or boiled, or fried in lard; with chocolate it forms an excellent meal.  A
vegetable called _yuca_ is also extremely cheap and nutritive; fifty pounds
cost but six and a fourth cents.  It is excellent in soup.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 13 00:02:39 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 19:02:39 -0500
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.190239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It just occurred to me that hash-house lingo might have been one of
the mediums which helped spread the term "hot dog." If this really
did happen, "hot dog" as a feature of hashhouse lingo would have been
short lived, ending when the term passed into general usage (as with
eggs "sunny side up.")

  Below my signoff is a relevant item I'm including in a compiled
bibliography on "hot dog."

Gerald Cohen

Irwin, Wallace 1907. Letters of a Japanese Schoolboy ('Hashimura Togo').
        1907, 1908 by P. F. Collier & Son; 1909 by Doubleday, Page & Company
        (mentioned in an ads-l message sent by Barry Popik, April 19, 2001).
        p. 95:
        'Best nourishment may be obtained for 5 cents by ordering 3
sausages        from Frankfurt Germany with slice of toast.
        'Yesterday I go as customary to this.  As customary I say,
"Give me        the same, those 3 sausages from Frankfurter."
        'And Mr. Swartz, turning to cookeryman, cry with voice:
        "Hot-dog!"
        'Therefore I must not eat them food because it is
cannibalism.  If Mr.    Swartz is not speaking Slank talk, then he
should be sent to prison for    Pure Food Laws.'


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Oct 13 02:09:28 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 22:09:28 -0400
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.OCT.2003.220928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, with college students continuing to use the term, you probably
didn't need hash-houses(but I'll keep on searching).

>From the Washington Post(reprinted from the Harvard Lampoon), January 13,
1907. (p 7 col 6)

   Freshman---Chicken sandwich and a frankfurter and some coffee, please.
    Sophomore--Cold bird, a hot dog, and some wash.  Rush it!
    Senior--A frigid fowl, a torrid canine, and a steaming cup of luscious
beverage.
    Law Student--The party of the first part desires a sandwich of or
composed of chicken, a roll wherin is compressed a frankfurter, so called,
and a cup, jar, or receptacle filled with coffee.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: "hot dog"--a hashhouse-lingo connection?


> It just occurred to me that hash-house lingo might have been one of
> the mediums which helped spread the term "hot dog." If this really
> did happen, "hot dog" as a feature of hashhouse lingo would have been
> short lived, ending when the term passed into general usage (as with
> eggs "sunny side up.")
>
>   Below my signoff is a relevant item I'm including in a compiled
> bibliography on "hot dog."
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> Irwin, Wallace 1907. Letters of a Japanese Schoolboy ('Hashimura Togo').
>         1907, 1908 by P. F. Collier & Son; 1909 by Doubleday, Page &
Company
>         (mentioned in an ads-l message sent by Barry Popik, April 19,
2001).
>         p. 95:
>         'Best nourishment may be obtained for 5 cents by ordering 3
> sausages        from Frankfurt Germany with slice of toast.
>         'Yesterday I go as customary to this.  As customary I say,
> "Give me        the same, those 3 sausages from Frankfurter."
>         'And Mr. Swartz, turning to cookeryman, cry with voice:
>         "Hot-dog!"
>         'Therefore I must not eat them food because it is
> cannibalism.  If Mr.    Swartz is not speaking Slank talk, then he
> should be sent to prison for    Pure Food Laws.'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 06:12:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 02:12:16 EDT
Subject: Sunday Morning Quarterback (1931)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.021216.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's a little before Monday morning.  (See archives.)


   30 October 1931, ARCADIA TRIBUNE (Arcadia, California), pg.5, col. 4:
   But he found a Roman army there before him, with another close on his
trail.  He was licked, and he knew it.  He didn't spend any time in vain regrets.
Spartacus was never a Sunday morning quarterback.

   17 November 1931, SHEBOYGAN PRESS (Sheboygan, WIsconsin), pg.4?, col. 3:
      _THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM_
   Are you one of those Saturday night and Sunday morning quarterbacks who
knows what they "should have" done to win the game?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 07:19:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 03:19:37 EDT
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.031937.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A new car commercial uses "TGIF."  The driver takes the car to work, and
we first see "TGIM."  Then TGIT, TGIW, and the rest follow.
   See "Thank God" in the archives.  The following is from an Ancestry.com
search...A TGI FRIDAYS just opened near me at 56th Street and Lexington, so
that's your food connection.
   Merriam-Webster doesn't give a year.  OED doesn't have anything?
   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from Columbus, Ohio!
I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.


   13 November 1941, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 19, col. 4:
_OHIO STATE'S TGIF CLUB_
_SET FOR HOMECOMING_
   By CHUCK McKENNA
   COLUMBUS, Nov. 13--I thought I'd heard of everything in the way of booster
clubs, alumni organizations and the like, but this city, home of the Ohio
State univeristy Buckeyes, and correctly called the Brooklyn of the football
world, has come up with one that tops them all.  It's the "Thank God It's Friday"
club, composed entirely of undergraduates here at State.
   This unique organization holds its weekly meeting from 5 to 6 every Friday
afternoon in a campus hangout called Ben's Tavern, that is a throwback to the
days of the Student Prince at Old Heidelberg with its huge organ in the place
of a "juke box," and the nightly singing of old favorites in the stead of
swing music.  The High Priestess and major domo of this weekly reitual is the
organist, Betty Terry, a lovely lady who is worshipped by the students of Ohio
State for the part she plays in their ceremony each Friday.
   Every member of this strange group firmly believes that if they were not
to meet each Friday preceding an Ohio State foootball (Col. 5--ed.) game evil
surely will befall State the following day.  It was my privilege to attend
their meeting last Friday, prior to the Ohio State-Wisconsin game and before they
were through darn if they didn't have the writer believing their meeting was
just as important as the daily practice sessions held by Coach Paul Brown.
   A typical meeting of the TGIF club goes something like this.  From three
to four o'clock on Friday afternoon, the members (almost every undergraduate
belongs) flock to the tavern and when the zero hour approaches standing space is
at a premium.  Ben, the jovial proprietor, usually has to lock the doors to
conform with local fire regulations the crowd is that large.  Promptly ar four
o'clock Miss Terry assumes her place at the organ and the familiar strains of
the State song "Fight the Team" start the meeting with a bang.  Then through a
series of fraternity songs that include at least one for every one of the 72
fraternities on the Buckeye campus.
   Midway in the festivities there is a short intermission that lasts for ten
minutes and after which the stirring march the "Buckeye Battle Cry" is sung
to start the second half of the meeting.  To end this strange hexing ceremony,
as it is sometimes called, the members assembled rise with the first chords of
their beautiful alma mater song, "Carmen Ohio."  As the alma mater is being
sung you can feel the pride in the voices of these loyal students as they tell
of the glories of Ohio State.  To them this a fitting climax to their unique
ritual and a guarantee of victory on the gridiron the following afternoon.
   Chances are if Bob Zuppke, great football coach of the University of
Illinois team that meets the Buckeyes in a game that has been designated by Ohio
State Alumni as being the homecoming game of the 1941 season, hears of this
strange club he will be all for (Col. 6--ed.) kidnapping Miss Terry and prevent
the sacred TGIF club from meeting this Friday afternoon, thereby insuring an
Illini victory over Coach Brown's warriors.  Knowing "Zup" as a mentor that never
misses a trick, the doughty sons of Ohio State had better keep a close watch
on their lovely organist the remainder of this week lest disaster creep into
the "hallowed temple," wherein lies the power and the glory and the secret of
success of Ohio State University's football team.  The place is better known as
Ben's Tavern.

   23 September 1954, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.(illegible), col.
3:
   A sign, "Welcome home, Don," and a beer bottle containing the letters,
"TGIF" were hung on the front door of their home.
   "TGIF," explained the family, referred to Dixon's favorite moptto while a
student at Syracuse university and stood for the undergraduate party cry,
"Thank God, It's Friday!"

   4 August 1955, BENNINGTON EVENING BANNER (Bennington, Vermont), pg.1, col.
8:
   RELAX at the
BENNINGTON CLUB'S
         COOL
   TGIF Club
Friday at 5 P. M.
Free Snacks


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:12:02 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:12:02 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <p04310106bbad199e8177@[131.151.65.140]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.091202.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
line was off the hook."

dInIs

>"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
>intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
>of hunkering down in a bunker.
>
>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>>investigation is a delicate matter.
>
>
>Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
>speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
>it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
>really a straightforward matter.
>If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
>roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
>
>   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
>line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
>blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
>I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
>"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
>the semester.
>
>   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
>"phone was off the hook."
>
>   There are loads of examples.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
>
>At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Se?n Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>>
>>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>>>(emphasis added)
>>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>>wave of popular disgust.
>>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>>two.
>>Se?n Fitzpatrick

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:08:25 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:08:25 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.090825.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:12 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>line was off the hook."

Phones can be off the hook, and lines can be down, but aren't normally 'off
the hook.'

Geoff


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 13 13:40:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:40:13 -0500
Subject: "The line was off the hook." (was   Re: Syntactic blending:
 bunker down)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.084013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The line was busy" + "The phone was off the hook."
 
Gerald Cohen

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/13/2003 8:12 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: Syntactic blending: bunker down
	
	

	I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
	line was off the hook."
	
	dInIs
	
	>"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
	>intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
	>of hunkering down in a bunker.
	>
	>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
	>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
	>>investigation is a delicate matter.
	>
	>
	>Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
	>speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
	>it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
	>really a straightforward matter.
	>If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
	>roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
	>
	>   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
	>line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
	>blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
	>I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
	>"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
	>the semester.
	>
	>   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
	>"phone was off the hook."
	>
	>   There are loads of examples.
	>
	>Gerald Cohen
	>
	>
	>At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Se?n Fitzpatrick wrote:
	>>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
	>>
	>>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
	>>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
	>>>(emphasis added)
	>>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
	>>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
	>>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
	>>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
	>>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
	>>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
	>>wave of popular disgust.
	>>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into the bunker with".
	>>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
	>>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
	>>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
	>>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
	>>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
	>>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
	>>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
	>>two.
	>>Se?n Fitzpatrick
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Oct 13 14:12:58 2003
From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:12:58 -0500
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.091258.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At what point does a blend cease to be a blend and become its own phrase?

Google returns about 2,360 hits for "bunker down"; LexisNexis provides 350
hits for "bunker down" AND NOT "golf" (to eliminate uses like the following:

The Houston Chronicle, June 08, 2003, Sunday, 2 STAR EDITION, SPORTS 2;, Pg.
1, 3680 words, U.S. OPEN PREVIEW; Olympia Fields grumbling is par for an
Open course, STEVE CAMPBELL
... narrow hole with a bunker down the left side. The tee ...)

Out of the 350 we still have a few adjectival PP, such as "... in a concrete
bunker down the road from the Price Slasher ..." and ... investigate a
strange bunker down deep within the bowels of ...". Discounting a
conservative 2/10, we are still left with about 280 genuine examples, dating
back to:

The Times (London), December 8 1986, Monday, Issue 62635., 332 words, Arts
(Television): From bed to worse, MARTIN CROPPER
  With their arch nicknames and economically sketched characters, the boys
in light blue down at Blackwall Fire Station seemed to have been seconded
from a sit-com of unknown provenance. They had only to tuck in to beef curry
and tinned apricots for the alarm bell to ring; they had only to bunker down
round a blue video for their new female colleague to amble in.

--Clai Rice


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 14:55:46 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:55:46 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031013090815.0278eed8@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.105546.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know that; I don't see why it is a question of syntax. I'm clearly quibbling.

dInIs

>At 09:12 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>>line was off the hook."
>
>Phones can be off the hook, and lines can be down, but aren't normally 'off
>the hook.'
>
>Geoff

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Oct 13 15:51:24 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:51:24 -0700
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--Jazzer & Gozlin
In-Reply-To: <p04310105bbae08f02ff5@[131.151.65.20]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.085124.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Johann Strauss, Jr. (1825-1899) wrote the Chatterbox
Polka -- Plappermaulchen Polka Op. 245, which was
subtitled 'A Musical Joke, named for Josef Strauss's
daughter, who evidently was a little chatterbox.  Of
course I don't know if it was on Johann's original
manuscripts, but I've performed this piece with an
orchestra and under the German title was the subtitle
"Jasseusse" (spelling from memory).  I have no idea
how conversant J. S., Jr was in French, and this may
simply have been added later by a publisher - but then
again, this might indicate the word was popularly
known and used to some extent outside of France, and
that there could possibly be a German tie to the name
Jazzer (jasseur) or the word jazz.

--- Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
> To ads-l and ans-l:
>
> In the 1896 published joke, the two speakers are
> Jazzer and Gozlin.
> Jazzer, if literally "Chatterbox," would be an
> appropriate name for
> someone engaged in light-hearted banter.
>    Meanwhile, the name Gozlin closely resembles
> "gosling" (= a young
> goose; a foolish or callow person), even though the
> name reportedly
> derives from the French personal name Goscelin
> "just." So for the
> 1896 joke-writer, apparently the two participants
> were 'Chatterbox'
> and 'Young Goose/Foolish or Callow Person.'
>
>    Again, appropriate names for a humorous item.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> P.S. Douglas Wilson mentions "Jinks" as being a name
> on the order of "Jones."
> Actually, though, "Jinks," when used in a humorous
> item, almost
> certainly has reference to the printer's devil Jinks
> of the
> mid-nineteenth century poem that Barry Popik
> unearthed and which
> possibly (this is still controversial) underlies the
> word "jinx."



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 15:59:02 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:59:02 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <200310082227.h98MRlH25783@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.115902.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:

The butler did it (anything before 1938)
Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Oct 13 16:35:25 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:35:25 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.123525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," written by Joan Whitney and Alex Kramer, was recorded by Louis Jordan on 6-26-46, according to the liner notes to The Best of Louis Jordan.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Shapiro [mailto:fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:

The butler did it (anything before 1938)
Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 17:25:35 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:25:35 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <143.1a168475.2cbbac09@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.132535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:19 AM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>    It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from Columbus, Ohio!
>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.


>    13 November 1941, MARION STAR (Marion, Ohio), pg. 19, col. 4:
>_OHIO STATE'S TGIF CLUB_
>_SET FOR HOMECOMING_
>    By CHUCK McKENNA
>    COLUMBUS, Nov. 13--I thought I'd heard of everything in the way of booster
>clubs, alumni organizations and the like, but this city, home of the Ohio
>State university Buckeyes, and correctly called the Brooklyn of the football
>world, has come up with one that tops them all.  It's the "Thank God It's
>Friday"
>club, composed entirely of undergraduates here at State.
>    This unique organization holds its weekly meeting from 5 to 6 every Friday
>afternoon in a campus hangout called Ben's Tavern, that is a throwback to the
>days of the Student Prince at Old Heidelberg with its huge organ in the place
>of a "juke box," and the nightly singing of old favorites in the stead of
>swing music.  The High Priestess and major domo of this weekly reitual is the
>organist, Betty Terry, a lovely lady who is worshipped by the students of Ohio
>State for the part she plays in their ceremony each Friday.
>    Every member of this strange group firmly believes that if they were not
>to meet each Friday preceding an Ohio State foootball (Col. 5--ed.) game evil
>surely will befall State the following day.  It was my privilege to attend
>their meeting last Friday, prior to the Ohio State-Wisconsin game and
>before they
>were through darn if they didn't have the writer believing their meeting was
>just as important as the daily practice sessions held by Coach Paul Brown.
>    A typical meeting of the TGIF club goes something like this.  From three
>to four o'clock on Friday afternoon, the members (almost every undergraduate
>belongs) flock to the tavern and when the zero hour approaches standing
>space is
>at a premium.  Ben, the jovial proprietor, usually has to lock the doors to
>conform with local fire regulations the crowd is that large.  Promptly ar four
>o'clock Miss Terry assumes her place at the organ and the familiar strains of
>the State song "Fight the Team" start the meeting with a bang.  Then through a
>series of fraternity songs that include at least one for every one of the 72
>fraternities on the Buckeye campus.
>    Midway in the festivities there is a short intermission that lasts for ten
>minutes and after which the stirring march the "Buckeye Battle Cry" is sung
>to start the second half of the meeting.  To end this strange hexing ceremony,
>as it is sometimes called, the members assembled rise with the first chords of
>their beautiful alma mater song, "Carmen Ohio."  As the alma mater is being
>sung you can feel the pride in the voices of these loyal students as they tell
>of the glories of Ohio State.  To them this a fitting climax to their unique
>ritual and a guarantee of victory on the gridiron the following afternoon.
>    Chances are if Bob Zuppke, great football coach of the University of
>Illinois team that meets the Buckeyes in a game that has been designated
>by Ohio
>State Alumni as being the homecoming game of the 1941 season, hears of this
>strange club he will be all for (Col. 6--ed.) kidnapping Miss Terry and
>prevent
>the sacred TGIF club from meeting this Friday afternoon, thereby insuring an
>Illini victory over Coach Brown's warriors.  Knowing "Zup" as a mentor
>that never
>misses a trick, the doughty sons of Ohio State had better keep a close watch
>on their lovely organist the remainder of this week lest disaster creep into
>the "hallowed temple," wherein lies the power and the glory and the secret of
>success of Ohio State University's football team.  The place is better
>known as
>Ben's Tavern.
Dennis might know about this.  Well, he wasn't there in 1941, but . . . .


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 13 18:24:07 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:24:07 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031013132100.012d9d10@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.142407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>  >   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from
>>Columbus, Ohio!
>>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
>You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
>banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.

Yes, and Ohio Stadium was built as a giant horseshoe in honor of the
good fortune of CC, who set out to find India and ended up in central
Ohio instead.

L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 19:29:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:29:36 EDT
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.152936.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is nearly
illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours straining your eyes,
and then you find something really important, and then you tell the Chicago
Tribune, and then you get rejected for seven years--how much is all that worth?
   I would have preferred even the pieces of those first seventy years rather
than nothing at all.  "Sundae" is from the 1890s, and those years are
somewhat legible, so why can't we have it now?
   Here's the bad news:


Subj:   RE: Chicago Tribune
Date:   10/13/2003 9:09:30 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com">christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
CC: <A HREF="mailto:mary.sauer-games at il.proquest.com">mary.sauer-games at il.proquest.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry,

Glad to hear from you again.  And especially glad that the LAT is proving
beneficial.

Here's the update on the Tribune.   As we began to digitize the earliest
years of microfilm for the Tribune, we found the film quality to be so poor that
it was virtually unusable for creating a searchable ASCII text.  The film (done
long before ProQuest/UMI handled it's creation) had poor image quality with
frequently torn and missing segments.  Both the Tribune and ProQuest knew there
would be quality issues with the earliest years; however, it proved to be
more significant than we had hoped.

In view of the situation, ProQuest launched a nationwide search to track down
original hard copy and/or alternative film sources for the first four decades
(1849-1889).  Fortunately, we've located the majority of the years in this
time period.  We will now refilm these years and then digitize.  We are
anticipating a Q1 2004 launch for the early portion (pre1923) of the Chicago Tribune.
Though we have digitized a significant portion of the useable film from
1890-1922, we won't launch the product until the fuller time period of 1849-1922 is
ready for our customers.

As for Puck in APS, I'm referring you to Mary Sauer-Games, Director of
Publishing, for that particular product line.

Chris
Chris Cowan
Vice President, Publishing
ProQuest Information & Learning
300 N. Zeeb Road
Ann Arbor, MI  48106-1346
Ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204
Ph: 734-975-6204
Fax: 734-975-6271


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 19:50:59 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:50:59 EDT
Subject: Arnie's Army (1962)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.155059.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    The phrase (in today's newspaper) has gone from a golfer (Arnold P.) to a
body builder (Arnold S.).  I don't have the Augusta (GA) microfilmed
newspapers handy, but we'll at least get close to a date.


   17 July 1962, LANCASTER EAGLE GAZETTE (Lancaster, Ohio), pg. 11, col. 8:
   Palmer's fans, sometimes called "Arnie's Army," followed the Pennsylvanian
as he played his way through the course.

   11 April 1964, CHRONICLE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg. 14, col. 3:
   If you ever wondered (Col. 4--ed.) where the phrase "Arnie's Army" came
from it was coined by a makeup man on the Augusta Chronicle...since then he's
become a brush salesman, which must prove something or other.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Oct 13 21:49:19 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:49:19 -0400
Subject: Spelling matters?
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.174919.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        As you may recall, there was a discussion last month on the readability of this scrambled text, which seemed to be at least somewhat manageable as long as initial and final letters were unchanged.  Matt Davis, who says he works at Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit, in Cambridge, UK, a Medical Research Council unit that includes a large group investigating how the brain processes language, has produced this page on the current state of reading research as it relates to this meme:

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/%7Ematt.davis/Cmabrigde/


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:04 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Spelling matters?


>
>"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't
>mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny
>iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the
>rghit pclae The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed
>it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not
>raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 13 22:22:39 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:22:39 EDT
Subject: Sopaipilla (1947)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.182239.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Sopaipilla" will be in the next volume of DARE.  I don't know what they
have and I hope this helps.  Ancestry updated the DEMING HEADLIGHT (NM), as I
knew they would.


   7 November 1947, DEMING HEADLIGHT (Deming, New Mexico), pg. 3?, cols. 6-8:
(CAUTION!  Ancestry says this is from October 31.  The page, clear as
anything, says November 7--ed.):
MEXICAN PLATE with Salad.................................................
.85c
MEXICAN PLATE DELUXE....................................................1.00
TACOS.........................................................................
.........50
TAMALES.......................................................................
..... .50
ENCHILADAS (WITHOUT EGG)............................................. .50
ENCHILADAS (WITH ONE EGG)............................................ .60
ENCHILADAS (WITH TWO EGGS).......................................... .70
CHILI
RELLENOS................................................................... .60
CHILI CON CARNE Y HUEVOS (Chili with Egg)......................... .70
HUEVOS RANCHEROS..........................................................
.65
AROOZ A LA MEXICANA (Mexican Rice side order).................... .20
FRIJOLES REFRITOS (Refried Beans, side order)........................ .20
   Your Choice of Sopaipillas or Bread with Any Order
   The Only Place in Town Serving Sopaipillas with Mexican Food
LA FIESTA
"HOME OF MEXICAN FOODS"

   13 May 1955, DEMING HEADLIGHT (Deming, New Mexico), pg.6, col. 4:
PAN AMERICAN ROUND TABLE--Members and guiests enjoyed a dinner of true Latin
American flavor at their dinner meeting at Rio Mimbres Country Club Wednesday.
 (...)
   The delicious dinner menu included foods prepared in the manner of six
different Latin American countries.  The cocktail was Brazilian iced cafe
chocolate.  Costa Rican Sopa De Albondigas followed.  The meat was prepared to an
Argentina recipe for Puchero.  The green beans were flavored in the Uraguayan
manner and the Frijoles Refritos were inspired by Costa Rica.  The Ensalada de
Guacamole was according to Mexico and the dessert of Bunelos is a Nicaraguan
dish.  For bread Mexican Sopapillas were passed and the coffee was served as from
Brazil.


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 22:28:17 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:28:17 -0500
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.172817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some loosely connected observations...

I just overheard a nice example of the contexts in which "going to" can be
contracted.

Two people on the bus were discussing a mutual friend who is currently in
jail. At one point, the specific topic had to do with the likelihood of the
incarcerated friend mending her ways (or something like that) and one of the
speakers said:

"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."

I thought it was neat to hear how even in this extremely informal
conversation the final "to" doesn't seem to be a candidate for contraction
for this speaker. (It was [t@], but it was clearly there.)

This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
[w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?

And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
informants saying this on tape:
"I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
noticed?

(It's kinda depressing to notice that these instances of contracted or
uncontracted "to" have been cluttering my memory for years.)

-Mai


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Mon Oct 13 22:31:07 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:31:07 +0100
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <E1A9A26-0002VP-9d@tweedledum.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.233107.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On D? Luain, DF?mh 13, 2003, at 16:59 Europe/Dublin, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)

Check out a song called "Ain't nobody here but us chickens"

Louis Jordan (1908 - 1975) - Born at Brinkley, he studied music with
his father and made his first professional appearance at Hot Springs's
Green Gables Club at age 15. During the 1930's Jordan worked with
well-known bands from Philadelphia to New York and toured with Ella
Fitzgerald. He penned such favorites as "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie," "Is You
Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby," "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," and
"Saturday Night Fish Fry." Jordan also appeared in several movies that
featured his music and toured Europe and Asia during the 1960s. He died
in Los Angeles and is buried in St. Louis. Member of the Arkansas
Entertainers Hall of Fame.

However, the song is also credited to two others. Alex Cramer or Kramer
and Joan Whitney (a husband and wife team). I believe that Jordan
recorded a cover version in around 1946 on Decca and that the duo were
the actual authors... many web sites credit them both.


Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 22:46:11 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 18:46:11 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.184611.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"There's nobody here but us chickens" is also the punchline of a joke.  I no doubt read it in the 50s, most likely in one of Bennett Cerf's collections, though I read a few other joke books then -- few since.
The premise is that a farmer hear a commotion among his chickens late at night, comes out with a lantern and shotgun.  The chicken thief, hiding, tries to defuse the crisis by saying "There ain't nobody here but us chickens."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony McCoy O'Grady <maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE>
Date: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:31 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestry.com Searches

> On D? Luain, DF?mh 13, 2003, at 16:59 Europe/Dublin, Fred Shapiro
> wrote:
> > There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
>
> Check out a song called "Ain't nobody here but us chickens"
>
> Louis Jordan (1908 - 1975) - Born at Brinkley, he studied music with
> his father and made his first professional appearance at Hot Springs's
> Green Gables Club at age 15. During the 1930's Jordan worked with
> well-known bands from Philadelphia to New York and toured with Ella
> Fitzgerald. He penned such favorites as "Choo Choo Ch' Boogie,"
> "Is You
> Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby," "Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens," and
> "Saturday Night Fish Fry." Jordan also appeared in several movies that
> featured his music and toured Europe and Asia during the 1960s. He
> diedin Los Angeles and is buried in St. Louis. Member of the Arkansas
> Entertainers Hall of Fame.
>
> However, the song is also credited to two others. Alex Cramer or
> Kramerand Joan Whitney (a husband and wife team). I believe that
> Jordanrecorded a cover version in around 1946 on Decca and that
> the duo were
> the actual authors... many web sites credit them both.
>
>
> Tony McCoy O'Grady
> ------------------
> "The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
> .................................................WB Yeats
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 23:03:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:03:17 -0400
Subject: You can't hit what you can't see.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.190317.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"You can't hit what you can't see" is a baseball proverb that I'm sure I have heard from broadcasters in recent years.  Attempting a search for examples, early or recent, would tax my patience excessively, but I offer here an instance from 1914 which I have recently stumbled over.

[From an essay by "Billy Evans, American League umpire" on "What ails Walter Johnson".  When he entered the league he had been able to throw the ball with extraordinary speed and got a lot of strikeouts, but of late he has been allowing more hits, getting fewer strikeouts & losing more games than previously.]  "Sluggers who favored pitchers with speed never enthused when Johnson was announced as the Washington pitcher.  Most of them insisted that it was impossible to hit what you couldn't see. . . ."  NY Times, November 1, 1914, p. 54, through Proquest.

Johnson only won 28 games in 1914, so it was natural that there would be such speculation.  The previous year his record was 36 wins, 7 losses.  But as late as 1924 he was 23 and 7, that the next year 20 and 7.  His last year was 1927.  This information is from baseball-reference.com

The notion that some pitchers throw to fast for the ball to be seen is common, more or less.  There is an old joke of a batter arguing a called strike by saying "it sounded high".  In 1979 Cliff Johnson, a power hitter with the Yankees, broke the thumb of Goose Gossage, hard-throwing realief pitcher of the Yankees, in a locker-room shoving match that began when Gossage said that Johnson could only hear his fastball.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Oct 13 23:14:51 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 19:14:51 -0400
Subject: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.191451.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had been supposing that it was necessary to show that "Jazzer" was a real name, however uncommon.  However, Douglas Wilson shows that it in the 1890s the interlocutors in "He and She" jokes might be given absurd, unheard-of names.  So the etymology or the name as well as the question of whether a person of that name might have come to the knowledge of the person who composed the joke seem beside the point.  In any event, we still don't have to concoct a speculative history of the word "jazz" that would account for it being known in central Massachusetts in 1896.

Nonetheless, there were a few people somewhere in the U. S. in the late 19th C named "Jazzer" or "Jasser".  I also notice that the 1951 edition of Albert Dauzat's dictionary of French names has "Jasse" "nom toponymique . . . designant un gite, un lieu de repos our le betail. . . and "Jasseur" & "Jassier", among others, as diminutives.  It's not in several other more recent dictionaries of French names, nor in the only dictionary of German names we have here at Bobst.  (Titles upon request.)

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:03 pm
Subject: Re: The name "Jazzer"--(was: jazzer, 1896)

> A   George Thompson's spotting of the 19th century name "Jazzer"
> >raises the question" Where did this name come from?
>
> >You folks may recall that I posted a few weeks ago a joke from an
> >>1896 Massachusetts newspaper in the form of a dialog between
> >>"Goslin" and "Jazzer".  Since then, it has occurred to me that
> in as
> >>much as "Goslin" is an authentic name -- not common, but some may
> >>remember "Goose" Goslin, who played baseball from 1921 to 1938 --
> >>then perhaps "Jazzer" is also a name.
>
> I reviewed some jokes taken from the "Roxbury Gazette". Character
> namesincluded:
>
> Jazzer & Gozlin [sic] (1896) [George Thompson's joke]
> Grazlin (1896)
> Dashem & Kasham (1896)
> Bablow & Gadwin (1899)
> Dozber & Jazlin (1895)
> Bloozin & Gablow (1898)
> Tablow & Scadman (1898)
>
> and even
>
> Mrs. Xrays & Mrs. Raysex
>
> etc., etc.
>
> On another note, jokes in the "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" in the same
> periodincluded our old friend Jinks quite often, including
> "Jinks", "Jinx", "Jinx
> and Wickwire", "Jinks and Binks", "Jinks and Blinks", "Jinks and
> Winks","Mr. and Mrs. Jinks", "Rev. Mr. Jinks", "Jinks and
> Filkins", "I. Jinks"
> [i.e., "high jinks" probably], etc., etc. The names do not seem to be
> correlated with material in the jokes; the names are essentially
> arbitraryin most cases IMHO, perhaps chosen for peculiar sounds.
> "Jinks" looks to be
> one of the most popular, and I take it to be an "everyman" name like
> "Jones", perhaps with some humorous freight from "highjinks".
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 01:50:29 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:50:29 -0400
Subject: Not tonight, Fred.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.215029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Not tonight, Josephine";  nothing on ancestry from 1885-1914.

Thought I'd post results so we don't duplicate--Barry, Jonathon.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
To: "American Dialect Society" <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Cc: <bapopik at aol.com>; <sclements at neo.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


>
> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 02:09:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:09:11 -0400
Subject: South still not rising over at ancestry.
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.220911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nothing on ancestry.com from 1910-1952 for "The South will rise again."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 02:55:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:55:57 -0400
Subject: Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....
Message-ID: <MON.13.OCT.2003.225557.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

We did this one over at the Straight Dope earlier this year.  One member
though it in Zane Grey, 'Riders of the Purple Sage(1912).  So I searched the
text, and in chapter VI, it says "Meantime, at the ranch, ....."

I know this isn't the exact phrase, but may be of interest.

Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 14 04:07:35 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:07:35 -0400
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.000735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,
Nothing on 'Nobody here 'cept us chickens.'  from 1963-1930.

I'll do this one back to the 1880's as it sounds like it should be older.

Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches


> If the Ancestry.com jockeys (Barry & Sam) are looking for things to search
> on that database, here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> The butler did it (anything before 1938)
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
> In God we trust; all others pay cash (anything before 1890)
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)
> The South will rise again (anything before 1950)
> Defeat from the jaws of victory (anything before 1891)
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch (anything before 1944)
> There's nobody here but us chickens (anything before 1963)
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Tue Oct 14 08:06:37 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:06:37 +0100
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <E1A9F6q-0008W0-Od@tweedledee.esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.090637.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On D? Luain, DF?mh 13, 2003, at 23:28 Europe/Dublin, Mai Kuha wrote:

> Some loosely connected observations...
<snip>
> (It's kinda depressing....

How appropriate that this contraction should pop up in this message :-)

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Tue Oct 14 11:14:52 2003
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:14:52 -0400
Subject: Cleaning up the list
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.071452.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

For each post to ADS-L, approximately 25 messages are bouncing back as
undeliverable for some reason.  Over the morning I will be removing "bad"
addresses from the subscription list.  When I have performed this routine
maintenance task in the past, I have sometimes inadvertently removed someone
from the list whose email account is causing only a temporary problem.

So, if you should receive a message indicating that you have been removed from
the list by me, do not take it as a personal affront.  Simply re-subscribe in
the usual manner and accept my apologies in advance.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 14 13:21:17 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:21:17 EDT
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.092117.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Probably a waste of good e-space, but here goes:

In a message dated > Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:59:02 -0400,  Fred Shapiro <
> fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> writes:
>
> ...here are nine sayings for which I would be interested in
> whether Ancestry has anything earlier than the dates indicated:
>
> Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)

Does anyone else hearing this saying immediately think of Josephine
Bonaparte?
>
> May you live in interesting times (anything before 1939)

Frequently cited as "an old Chinese curse"; it might be interesting to see if
such an old Chinese saying actually exists.
>
> Close, but no cigar (anything before 1935)

There is a possibility that Polly Adler used this phrase before 1935.  In her
memoirs _A House Is Not A Home_ (1953) she describes hiding out in the New
York area and reading a newspaper article saying she was in Cuba.  She writes
something to the effect that she was tempted to send a message to that writer
saying "Close but no cigar".

I am under the impression (which could easily be wrong) that this is an old
saying among carnival-goers.  Many carnivals had a game in which the customer
(sucker?) swung a mallet at a lever which flung a metal something at a bell at
the top of a column.  The object was to hit hard enough to get the bell to
ring.  Supposedly the prize for doing this was a cigar.  Hence, "close, but no
cigar".

There is of course the possibly related saying "Close only counts in
horseshoes" and its more dramatic rendering "close only counts in horseshoes and hand
grenades".

                  - James A. Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Oct 14 13:35:02 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:35:02 -0700
Subject: Ancestry.com Searches
In-Reply-To: <18b.20c916ef.2cbd524d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.063502.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:
> Probably a waste of good e-space, but here goes:
>
> > Not tonight, Josephine (anything before 1911)
>
> Does anyone else hearing this saying immediately
> think of Josephine
> Bonaparte?


Yes



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 14:43:09 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:43:09 -0400
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <BBB09131.18FF%mkuha@bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.104309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tryinna" seems very normal to me, as long as an infinitive follows the
contracted 'to'.  Otherwise, I'd expect the full "trying to" with implied
infinitive, as in your "going to" example.  I've also heard "wanu"; in
fact, I think (with fuzzy memory) it may have been the more common
contraction when I was younger.  But this is just impressionistic.  BTW,
was it really a schwa in the first syllable, or [a]?

At 05:28 PM 10/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Some loosely connected observations...
>
>I just overheard a nice example of the contexts in which "going to" can be
>contracted.
>
>Two people on the bus were discussing a mutual friend who is currently in
>jail. At one point, the specific topic had to do with the likelihood of the
>incarcerated friend mending her ways (or something like that) and one of the
>speakers said:
>
>"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."
>
>I thought it was neat to hear how even in this extremely informal
>conversation the final "to" doesn't seem to be a candidate for contraction
>for this speaker. (It was [t@], but it was clearly there.)
>
>This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
>me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
>her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
>car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
>[w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
>I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?
>
>And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
>informants saying this on tape:
>"I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
>neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
>I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
>noticed?
>
>(It's kinda depressing to notice that these instances of contracted or
>uncontracted "to" have been cluttering my memory for years.)
>
>-Mai


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Oct 14 17:51:39 2003
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:51:39 -0700
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <200310141633.h9EGXrQP028997@mxu5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.105139.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was the second "Just ain't going to."  drawn out?  In that case, I would
expect that the switch to the full phrase was definitely for emphasis, and
the speaker ought to have been shaking his head at the same time.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

> >"Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:28:49 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:28:49 -0600
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL02OwiTaCKojli00055ee3@exmail02.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.132849.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now that you mention it, this is what stood out to me about that instance of
"tryinna": it is separated from its infinitive by "I think more than
complain". ("Tryinna" does seem very normal to me too, but somehow I never
notice anyone saying it.)

Maybe it was "wanu", not with a schwa. The [u] threw me for such a loop that
I'm sure my perception and memory of the first vowel are entirely
unreliable.

-Mai

on 10/14/03 8:43 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIOU.EDU wrote:

> "Tryinna" seems very normal to me, as long as an infinitive follows the
> contracted 'to'.  Otherwise, I'd expect the full "trying to" with implied
> infinitive, as in your "going to" example.  I've also heard "wanu"; in
> fact, I think (with fuzzy memory) it may have been the more common
> contraction when I was younger.  But this is just impressionistic.  BTW,
> was it really a schwa in the first syllable, or [a]?
>
> At 05:28 PM 10/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>> (...)
>> This reminded me of a contraction on a Seinfeld episode that's been haunting
>> me for a long time. Elaine is trying to convince a total stranger to drive
>> her and her friends around the parking garage so that they can find their
>> car. He refuses, and when Elaine insists, gives this reason: "I just don't
>> [w at nu]." "But why?" Elaine whines, "why don't you [w at nu]?"
>> I found that very odd. Dispense with the [t], but keep a full-blown [u]?
>>
>> And that reminded me of my dissertation data. I have one of my lovely
>> informants saying this on tape:
>> "I think I was just tryinna, I think more than complain, just let the
>> neighbor know I'm aware of the situation."
>> I'm not aware of having heard "tryinna" since. Maybe it does occur but isn't
>> noticed?
>>
>> -Mai


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:28:53 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:28:53 -0600
Subject: Contractions: gonna, wanna, tryinna
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL01b02iZmTzgL50006544e@exmail01.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.132853.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It certainly did sound emphatic to me, but I believe the uncontracted "going
to" accomplished the emphasis by itself, as "just ain't going to" didn't
seem different from the rest of the conversation in terms of prosody or
speed of delivery.

-Mai

on 10/14/03 11:51 AM, J. Eulenberg at eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote:

> Was the second "Just ain't going to."  drawn out?  In that case, I would
> expect that the switch to the full phrase was definitely for emphasis, and
> the speaker ought to have been shaking his head at the same time.
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
>>> "Ain't gonna happen. Just ain't going to."


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Oct 14 20:01:54 2003
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:01:54 -0400
Subject: Coinage Rate Statistics?
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.160154.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Are there any studies that I can be pointed to on the rates at which
new words enter the English language, and especially, how these rates
might change in response to cultural, technical, geo-political, etc.,
influences (e.g. world wars, cultural movements, communications
technologies)?

Gareth


From zafav at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Oct 14 22:16:36 2003
From: zafav at HOTMAIL.COM (zafer av�ar)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:16:36 +0000
Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole" (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.221636.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there anyone who likes to answer those questions for me: If you wrote
those sentences in more basic way which ones would you use to in exchange
for them?
1.You are not so very blooming yourself p9
2.Isn?t it though p16
3.Peace of mind is the hallmark of slaves p17
4.He thinks he?s in his circle. P18
5.so just come in for crying out loud p23
6.I have every intention of amazing nobady p25
7.May what you say be the truth p26
8. cold cuts?
9.Intricate to a fault? P31
10.The lord has flushed me out p35
11.They put up with everything p37
12.She commands the stage by God, and it hasn?t got a thing to do with her!
P37: Allah i?in b?t?n sahneyi dolduruyor ama oyunda onunla ilgili tek ?ey
yok!
13.My wife is but barely attuned to the macrocosm?
14.to get things going? P43
15.Your outing did you a world of good p47
16.we are done for:? p48
17.I dont feel like howling p48
18.I feel like getting it off my chest p49:
19.there are too few and it is not worth your while to begin: p51
20.Finding it therefore impossible to live and recoiling from the great
cure..:p52
21.Will wonders never cease:p56
22.But you have no more tricks up your sleeve? P57
23.Time is of interest to me: p77
24.So much the worse p78
25.I did not put it right p81
26.take on little  contour p81
27. So that all this may look like it holds water. You have been impossible
up until now.  p81
28. timeclock it, dont half cock it. P82
29. Deep down only words interest me p82
30.timeclock it p82: Saat y?n?nde ?evir.
31.I am a poeth who would rather not know it p82:
32.for Pete?s sake?
33.But give hime room to breathe for Pete?s sake p86 : Allah a?k?na izin ver
de bir nefes als?n..
34.If you had your heart sen on being hooted down, you could not have done
better P87
35.Men like you are needed p88: senin gidi adamlar reva?ta..
36.so that toffee may go being sold p88: Dalkavukluk para etsin diye..
37.Your praises are sung p88:
38.That was bluffing p92.
39.He made me promise to look like I was living so you too would look like
you were living p93
40.It is not the line I would have taken p93
41.Scratch him a little thereabouts p94:
42.Have too keep the rubbernecks well entertained p97:
43. It is getting stagey p99:
44.not what the living call dead p102:
45.That must have dealt him a low blow p105:
46.He denies her right of entry p106:
47.raving right along p108.
48.it is amazing the help people need in ceasing to be: p112:
49.But rest assured it?s more than likely he is as scummy as the rest of us
p114:
50.If I have been a little bit off in my own world, If I have minced words
insufficiently, lay it to the account of an oldu enthusiasm, about to be
snuffed out. P114.
51.So near giving away! P119
52.Color is the missing of a beat p119
53.The grain of wheat discovered in a hypogem is sprouting after three
thousand years of dry sleep p127
54.He doesn?t give a thinker?s damn p131:
55.It is not enough that he insists on explaining himself only in the wings,
but he requires imbeciles to the bargain p133
56.we who senselessly dared to speak of something other than staple
rationing p134:
57.One look at a cork and they are out of commission p135
58.Better you, obviously than rotten eggs. P139
59.Cut to the chase :p139
60.I am as much your village gossip as the gentleman who doesn?t get taken
in. P143
61.It?s either that or a fit p144
62.That would be to let all hell break loose p146
63.Set forth with vagueness: p147
64.Auvergnat:? p148
65.The merest streetlamp, just something to set off the fog p149:
66.If you felt me deep down to be one of your own kind: p161
67.But far away from words..p 163
68.You acept one?s getting beyond life or its getting beyond you p163
69. make a peep p165
70.You must nevertheless have had a bite from time to time p165
71.He is in a class by himself p166
72.Everybody has his dealer p166
73.Stories, well there?s no getting them told with impunity p167
74.Well, for crying out loud p168
75.Now that the damage is done p170
76.Slaughterfest: p173
77.Honor to whom honor
78.The wind in the reeds p179
79.He casts it behind the ozone! P181
80.Don?t let yourself be pushed around!
81.I like my revels to be well-attended p186
82.How low the ground is



Ea
?e
Au
aeiu


>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: "Cowboy Up" and "Masshole"  (Red Sox-Yanks lingo)
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 02:56:18 EDT
>
>COWBOY UP--The rallying cry of the Boston Red Sox.  It's from the rodeo.
>
>MASSHOLE--Used by Yankee fans to describe Red Sox fans (from
>Massachusetts).
>Not in the HDAS.  Google Groups has hits as far back as 1985 and 1986.  See
>the multiple entries in the Urban Dictionary:
>
>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Masshole

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 14 19:07:51 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:07:51 -0400
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <p0432040fbbb09d7da479@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.150751.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:24 PM 10/13/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>>>  >   It's Columbus Day,  and it appears that "TGIF" comes from
>>>Columbus, Ohio!
>>>I never knew that Columbus discovered Ohio, but that's another story.
>>You'd be surprised.  There's even a statue of the Discoverer, right on the
>>banks of the Scioto River in downtown Columbus.
>
>Yes, and Ohio Stadium was built as a giant horseshoe in honor of the
>good fortune of CC, who set out to find India and ended up in central
>Ohio instead.
>
>L

P.S.  A replica of the Santa Maria also sits/floats in the Scioto
River--hoping for a link to the Northwest Passage, no doubt.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 14 23:28:12 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:28:12 -0700
Subject: TGIF (1941, in Columbus, Ohio)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031014150623.01e52650@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.162812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> P.S.  A replica of the Santa Maria also sits/floats in the Scioto
> River--hoping for a link to the Northwest Passage, no doubt.

damn!  i was going to point this out.

i've been *on* this santa maria.  (scarily small.)  with *john glenn*,
even.  but then i lived in brutus-buckeye-land for 29 years.  (nice
place, actually.)

arnold in ahnuldland


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 15 00:01:09 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:01:09 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.200109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

>>Don't sit there mumblin'
And talkin' trash
If you want to have a ball
You got to go out and spend some cash
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Don't care if you young or old
Get together, let the good times roll.<<

John Baker


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 00:19:08 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:19:08 -0700
Subject: Just Say No
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.171908.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

it was an ordinary graduate seminar.  we were discussing arcane points
of theory and of english.  iin particular: "whose" and (interrogative)
"which", which i was discussing as interrogative words that didn't (for
many speakers) take postposed "else", because they are modifiers (with
omitted heads) rather than heads.

one student wrinkled his brow.  he was reminded of "this" and "that",
which he'd been taught in high school *never* to use on their own.
(always add a noun.)  i gaped at him, never having heard such a thing.
then two other students chimed in, with supporting stories.

mild pandemonium ("hemidemonium"?) ensued.  and then i saw what was
going on: it was yet another instance of Just Say No (a.k.a. If It's
Sometimes Ineffective It's Always Unacceptable)): people had seen that
bare "this" and "that" were often desperately unanchored in the context
of their students' writing, so they just told them not to use bare
"this" and "that" at all.  (you can't get cut if you never pick up a
knife.)

later i had an "aha" experience, when i understood the writing of a
student who persistently produced vague-referent "this one' and "that
thing" etc.  like my grad students, he'd been told *never to use "this"
or "that" without a following noun*.  one weeps.

the top-line handbooks are entirely clear about this; in fact, they
never actually state the proscription, but confront it crabwise.  both
MWDEU and garner's DMAU say quite clearly that the real proscription
(one of usage rather than grammar) is against ambiguity of reference in
context and remark that deictics don't have to have nouns immediately
following them.

i haven't looked at the firing-line handbooks on this point -- i have a
*very* large collection -- because i fear what i will see.

arnold, living briefly in innocent  (but suspicious)  bliss


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 15 01:22:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:22:03 EDT
Subject: Pie a la mode (1903) & PUCK
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.212203.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another ten hours of parking tickets today.  What a waste of a life...Not
only is my salary an embarrassment, but they didn't even pay for for two
different weeks.  I'm still owed pay for the blackout week two months ago.  I need
that money to buy a sandwich.
   Two students have tried to commit suicide by jumping at NYU's Bobst
Library.  Maybe George can tell me what they were reading?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PIE A LA MODE

   The NYPL has a NEW YORK HERALD clipping file, but it wasn't much help.
"PIE A LA MODE A TRUST CREATION" is the title of a public health story in the
NEW YORK HERALD< 7 November 1903, pg. 14, col. 1.
   The Cornell University digital library of international women's
periodicals provided this, a little earlier than OED's best pie:

   January 1903, AMERICAN KITCHEN MAGAZINE, pg. 158, col. 2:
   Many persons will prefer this combination to the pie with ice-cream,
sometimes known as pie a la mode.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PUCK

   Later in the year?  What happened to summer?  I've got a "hot dog" book
coming out.  How can I do "red hot" without PUCK and the CHICAGO TRIBUNE?


Subj:   RE: Chicago Tribune
Date:   10/14/2003 2:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:Jo-Anne.Hogan at il.proquest.com">Jo-Anne.Hogan at il.proquest.com</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Dear Barry

Puck is scheduled to be added to APS before the end of the year.

Sincerely,

Jo-Anne Hogan
Product Manager, Chadwyck-Healey
ProQuest Information and Learning
jo-anne.hogan at il.proquest.com
Ph: 734.761.4700, Ext 3049
Fax: 734.975.6440


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 15 01:49:28 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:49:28 -0400
Subject: Pie a la mode (1903) & PUCK
In-Reply-To: <1cf.128f46ca.2cbdfb3b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.214928.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:22 PM -0400 10/14/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    Two students have tried to commit suicide by jumping at NYU's Bobst
>Library.  Maybe George can tell me what they were reading?
>
OT:  This for me implicates that they failed to commit suicide.  In
fact they succeeded.

larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Oct 15 01:53:49 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:53:49 -0500
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.205349.0500.>

"Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@] gone"
and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of gone".
I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red Rabbit_
on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last week.)
On page 349, Clancy writes

"That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
impossible to arrange."

This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it goes in
the other direction.

By the way, the book isn't worth the bother.  Clancy's slipped a bit from
his _Red October_ days.

Herb


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 15 02:01:28 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:01:28 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAD7@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.220128.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 08:01:09PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is
>talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good
>Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my
>transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

When we discussed it here most recently I think 1947
in the New York Times was the best anyone could come up
with.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 15 02:57:50 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:57:50 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.225750.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to walk
on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo.  When I can, I use the
elevator.  It is not so much which book they might have been reading but
rather what field of study they were pursuing.

David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Wed Oct 15 06:05:13 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:05:13 -0700
Subject: library suicide
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017ce7723b9aca0010d91533.17ce7cd@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.OCT.2003.230513.0700.>

which library is it David? where is it located?

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barnhart
Sent: October 14, 2003 7:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: library suicide


I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to walk
on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo.  When I can, I use the
elevator.  It is not so much which book they might have been reading but
rather what field of study they were pursuing.

David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 15 11:23:02 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:23:02 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.072302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bobst at NYU


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 15 11:46:18 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:46:18 EDT
Subject: Heroes, Heros, and New York Times
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.074618.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   You knew this was going to happen.  You know it's not going to be 
corrected.  Someone write in to the New York Times and, for a good laugh, ask for 
documentation.
  
  
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/dining/15HERO.html
Hey, Po' Boy, Meet Some Real Heroes

By ED LEVINE

Published: October 15, 2003

E are a city of heroes. The rest of the country may clamor for po' boys and 
hoagies, grinders, subs, wedges or torpedoes, but New York knows what really 
constitutes a gigantic sandwich, and what raises the hero above those 
pretenders; what makes it gastronomic royalty.

Let there be no misunderstanding by those who have never ventured to New 
York, or by those who have come lately, or by those who diet. The hero is a 
sandwich of cured Italian meats. These are layered into a forearm's length of fresh 
crusty bread, often with a few slices of Italian cheese and a condiment or two 
atop them ? pepperoncini, yes; roasted peppers, yes; mayonnaise, an emphatic 
no. Also, perhaps, a splash of vinegar, certainly a drizzle of olive oil. Some 
ground pepper, a sprinkle of salt. But no more. No sun-dried tomatoes sully 
the interior of a true hero, no pesto, no Brie, no fancy pants ingredients at 
all.

A hero, at least for today, is cold. (We will return to the subject of hot 
heroes ? your pillowy meatball sandwiches, mighty chicken parmigianas, lengths 
of hot sausage and pepper ? at a later date.) It is made by Italians, most 
often, in family run stores, and is usually served wrapped in paper, to eat 
outside somewhere. A hero has working class origins. It is lunch in tubular form.

In 1936, Clementine Paddleford, the legendary food writer on The New York 
Herald Tribune, unwittingly named the sandwich, saying, "You'd have to be a hero 
to finish one."
(...)
  
   Heroes or Heros?
  
   Clementine Paddleford STARTED on the New Yprk Herald Tribune in 1936.  She 
did not name the sandwich in 1936, nor did she ever admit to naming the 
sandwich.
   As ADS-Lers may know, I went through every single Clementine Paddleford 
column in 1936...and 1937, and 1938, and 1939, and 1940, and 1941, and so on.  
It was extremely time-consuming.
   For all this work, I got paid nothing at all.  
   I found "hero" in the 1940s.
   I would write in to the New York TImes, but they still haven't printed 
even "the Big Apple" (which became a law, signed by the mayor), so what's the 
use?
   More parking tickets in a few minutes.  SOMEBODY PLEASE KILL ME! 


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 15 12:07:09 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:07:09 -0400
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.080709.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS cites the following as its first use of the word "movie":

1902 Jarrold _Mickey Finn_ (ad on rev. title):  After the Movies "Murine"
Your Eyes.

This citation, much earlier than anything else that has been found as far
as I know, is repeated in OED.

Sam Clements has graciously obtained a copy of the book referred to above,
_Mickey Finn's New Irish Yarns_ (1902), which he has lent to me.  There is
no advertisement on the reverse of the title page and, although there are
ads in the back of the book, none of them includes the "movie" usage.  I
think that, unless someone locates another copy of the book that does
contain the Murine ad, the OED/HDAS cite should be considered erroneous.

As I have indicated before, this leaves the following citation (from
ProQuest Historical Newspapers) as the earliest known usage of "movie":

1911 _Wash. Post_ 1 Aug. 6  I learned how to bake stuffed tomatoes at the
'movies' last night.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 15 13:52:34 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:52:34 -0400
Subject: Talkin' Trash
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.095234.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Yes, and I even participated in that discussion, which had totally slipped my mind.  This 1946 use does seem to be an antedate, unless we accept Barry's 1869 use from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle:  "If we began to excuse and scrutinise the trash that is talked in political meetings . . . ."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Talkin' Trash


On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 08:01:09PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
> Merriam-Webster has 1981 for trash talk, but how old is
>talkin(g) trash?  Here's a 1946 use in the song "Let the Good
>Times Roll," by Fleecie Moore and Sam Theard.  This is my
>transcription from the 6-26-46 recording by Louis Jordan:

When we discussed it here most recently I think 1947
in the New York Times was the best anyone could come up
with.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 16:54:30 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:54:30 -0700
Subject: library suicide
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e017ce7723b9aca0010d91533.17ce7cd@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.095430.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 07:57 PM, David Barnhart wrote:

> I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from each
> level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I have to
> walk
> on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo...

i was just about to say the same thing.  it's a beautiful space, but a
kind of hell for an acrophobe.

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 15 18:06:58 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:06:58 -0700
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.110658.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 06:53 PM, Herbert Stahlke wrote:
>
>> "Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@]
>> gone"
>> and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of
>> gone".
>> I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red
>> Rabbit_
>> on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last
>> week.)
>> On page 349, Clancy writes
>>
>> "That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
>> impossible to arrange."
>>
>> This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it
>> goes in
>> the other direction.
>
> something a bit different might be going on here.  "so" is one of the
> degree modifiers that trigger indefinite marking on the following noun
> (what i've called "exceptional degree modifiers"):  a very vast
> complication, so vast a complication, *(a) so vast complication.
> you're assuming that the "a" here is what's been reinterpreted as > "of".
>
> but that's standard english.  a widespread nonstandard variety of
> american english has double marking with exceptional degree modifiers,
> involving the preposition "of" as well as the indefinite article: that
> big of a tree, so vast of a complication.  perhaps this is the variety
> clancy is representing in his novel.  if so, the speaker would be
> expected to say "so vast of a one", which strikes me as awkward to
> pronounce -- an awkwardness that could be alleviated by omitting one
> of the unaccented words, and the "a" has the least accent and the
> least phonetic substance, so it's the prime candidate for omission.
> then the "of" that appears would be just the "of" of the nonstandard
> degree modifier construction, not an indefinite article in
> prepositional clothing.
>
> arnold, doubting that asking clancy what he was doing would be of any
> use,
>   even if he was willing to answer
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 16:56:37 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:56:37 -0400
Subject: have, of, and a
In-Reply-To: <000201c392bf$33daec20$1c15fea9@ibm12258>
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.125637.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>"Have" and "of" merge phonetically in constructions like "I would [@] gone"
>and "two [@] those", leading to the common writing slip "I would of gone".
>I found a variant of this phenomenon while reading Tom Clancy's _Red Rabbit_
>on Fall Break.  (It occupied a cold, rainy day on Georgian Bay last week.)
>On page 349, Clancy writes
>
>"That would be a major complication, but not so vast of one as to be
>impossible to arrange."
>
>This is the first time I've seen "a" replaced by "of".  Usually it goes in
>the other direction.
>
>By the way, the book isn't worth the bother.  Clancy's slipped a bit from
>his _Red October_ days.
>Herb

A third, and very common, variant is "of a," as in "not so vast of a
one."  I don't like this and always cross out the 'of' when I see it in
writing (I accept it in speaking, though I still don't like it).  Looks
like Clancy is hypercorrecting, perhaps from both the spoken contraction
and the growing use of "of a."


From colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM  Wed Oct 15 19:04:51 2003
From: colburn at PEOPLEPC.COM (David Colburn)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:04:51 -0700
Subject: have, of, and a
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.120451.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> A third, and very common, variant is "of a," as in "not so vast of a
> one."  I don't like this and always cross out the 'of' when I see it in
> writing (I accept it in speaking, though I still don't like it).  Looks
> like Clancy is hypercorrecting, perhaps from both the spoken contraction
> and the growing use of "of a."
>
As a "layman," I don't find it strange that 'one' would replace the
indefinite article *and* the noun in a phrase such as "not so vast of [a
complication]" Isn't this essentially what is happening in a use of 'one'
such as: "Did you bring a laptop?" "No, I don't have one," meaning "I don't
have [a laptop]"

I'm sure there are subtleties I'm missing here, but "not so vast of a one"
sounds weirder to my ears than "not so vast of one." I know that "a one" is
sometimes used, in phrases like "not a one," but it sounds more natural to
me in most cases to use "a" or "one" but not both.

-David Colburn


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 15 19:49:23 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:49:23 -0400
Subject: GLAC-10/SHEL-3: Call for Papers
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.154923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This CFP may be of interest to ADS-L members:

-----
Call for Papers: GLAC 10/SHEL 3

The 10th annual conference of the Society of Germanic Linguistics and
the 3rd annual conference on Studies in the History of the English
Language will be held jointly in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

SHEL 3 will be held May 6-7, 2004
GLAC 10 will be held May 7-8, 2004

Faculty, graduate students, and independent scholars are invited to
submit abstracts for 20-minute papers to either SHEL or GLAC. Proposals
to GLAC may be on any linguistic or philological aspect of any
historical or modern Germanic language or dialect, including English (to
the Early Modern period) and the extraterritorial varieties. Proposals
to SHEL may be on any linguistic or philological aspect of the history
of English. A single author may submit one abstract to GLAC and one to
SHEL. Authors may submit two abstracts to the same conference if one is
jointly authored.

Papers from a range of linguistic and philological subfields, including
phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, semantics, pragmatics,
sociolinguistics, stylistics, metrics, language acquisition, contact,
and change, as well as differing theoretical perspectives, are welcome
for both conferences. SHEL will also host a pedagogy workshop; we
welcome proposals for 20-minute pedagogical presentations.

We strongly encourage a submission of intent (name and provisional paper
title) by Dec. 1, 2003. Full proposals are due Jan. 15, 2004. Abstracts
can be submitted in print form or electronically; for those submitting
abstracts electronically, please send them as PDF files if they contain
any specialized fonts.

Send abstracts to:

SHEL                                            GLAC
Anne Curzan                                     Robin Queen
Department of English                   Department of Germanic Languages
& Literatures
3187 Angell Hall                                3110 MLB
University of Michigan                  University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003                        Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1275
acurzan at umich.edu                               rqueen at umich.edu


For further information, contact
Anne Curzan (SHEL): acurzan at umich.edu
Robin Queen (GLAC): rqueen at umich.edu

For further information, please also see our website:
http://www.umich.edu/~glacshel/


From sllauns at ISU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 20:33:53 2003
From: sllauns at ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:33:53 -0600
Subject: a-prefixing
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.143353.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was wondering
what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is it
no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?

Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
but I haven't found anything recent.

Sonja Launspach

_______________________________________________________________________
Sonja Launspach
Assistant Professor Linguistics
Dept.of English & Philosophy
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209
208-282-2478
fax:208-282-4472
email: sllauns at isu.edu


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct 15 22:40:02 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:40:02 -0400
Subject: library suicide
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.184002.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The atrium is 12 stories high.

I occasionally encounter someone who finds the balconies & stairs disquieting, but not so very often, actually.  I would suppose it to be a reasonably common issue.

I was told by people who were with the library in the 1960s, when the building was designed, that the director of the library was not consulted in the planning.  I was also told that the president of NYU wanted a big goddamned building that would dominate the square and assert NYU's presence.  Zoning requirements limited the building to floorspace 6x the plot of land it would stand on.  The Pres could have had a 12 story building on 1/2 the plot, or a 6 story building on the whole plot, but neither met his requirement of a big goddamned building.  So with so finagling -- I'm not saying bribery, mind you -- the zoning board accepted a 12 story building filling the whole plot, so long as the atrium used up half the possible floor space.

I came to NYU about 6 months before Bobst opened.  The common babble on campus then was, "I'll be afraid to walk across the atrium, because I might be hit by a jumper."  This from people who would walk down the streets, under the windows of apartment buildings & offices.  The university assigned one of the psych profs to write a paper proving that jumpers don't jump inside buildings.  Like a well-trained social scientist, he ignored all evidence that would undercut his position, viz, the scarcity of buildings designed so as to facilitate jumping within the building, and produced the paper, which I doubt anyone read.

In the event, we managed to go 30+ years without a jumper.  Since we have had one and a copycat, we have to anticipate the possibility of others, I suppose, and the university is going to enclose the balconies and stairs.  In the meanwhile, I continue to cross the atrium, when necessary.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: library suicide

> On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 07:57 PM, David Barnhart wrote:
>
> > I have a problem with heights.  This library has a stairway from
> each> level to the next on an atrium seven or so stories tall.  I
> have to
> > walk
> > on the inside of the stairway to avoid vertigo...
>
> i was just about to say the same thing.  it's a beautiful space,
> but a
> kind of hell for an acrophobe.
>
> arnold
>


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct 16 00:16:41 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:16:41 -0500
Subject: more syntactic blending
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.191641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While traveling this past week I  heard a "maple" syrup commercial
where the end line was "It's not rocket surgery!"

Yet another instance of being reminded of a linguistic process and then
hearing it everywhere ...

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com


On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

>  "The line was busy" + "The phone was off the hook."
>
>  Gerald Cohen
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/13/2003 8:12 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Cc:
>       Subject: Re: Syntactic blending: bunker down
>
>
>
>       I cannot find what syntax is blended in "I tried to reach you but the
>       line was off the hook."
>
>       dInIs
>
>       >"Bunker down" is not a blend. It's merely "hunker down" with the
>       >intrusion of "bunker" (based both on phonetic similarity and the idea
>       >of hunkering down in a bunker.
>       >
>       >>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>       >>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>       >>investigation is a delicate matter.
>       >
>       >
>       >Syntactic blending is not really a feature of bureaucratic/business
>       >speech and writing, although it may occasionally creep in there, as
>       >it does elsewhere in everyday speech.  As for investigation, this is
>       >really a straightforward matter.
>       >If an unusual construction is patently composed of two at least
>       >roughly synonymous parts, it's a blend. (End of investigation).
>       >
>       >   For example, I once told my wife: "I tried to reach you, but the
>       >line was off the hook." As soon as I said it, I realized it was a
>       >blend. One of my students was in my office when I said that, and when
>       >I finished the conversation with my wife, he looked at me and said:
>       >"You know, that was a blend." (I had talked about blends earlier in
>       >the semester.
>       >
>       >   This particular blend was, of course: "The line was busy" + "The
>       >"phone was off the hook."
>       >
>       >   There are loads of examples.
>       >
>       >Gerald Cohen
>       >
>       >
>       >At 11:41 AM -0400 10/10/03, Se??n Fitzpatrick wrote:
>       >>My grandmother called these "malaphors":  mala(propism) + (meta)phore
>       >>
>       >>>From "Jonestown for Democrats:  Liberals follow Gray into the big
>       >>>nowhere", by Marc Cooper in the LA Weekly http://tinyurl.com/qgfm
>       >>>(emphasis added)
>       >>   As the insurgency swelled, the best that liberal activists could
>       >>do was plug their ears, cover their eyes and rather mindlessly
>       >>repeat that this all was some sinister plot linked to Florida,
>       >>Texas, Bush, the Carlyle Group, Enron, and Skull and Bones. By
>       >>BUNKERING DOWN with the discredited and justly scorned Gray Davis,
>       >>they wound up defending an indefensible status quo against a surging
>       >>wave of popular disgust.
>       >>"Hunker down" mixed up with some such phrase as  "go into
>the bunker with".
>       >>How can you test hypotheses about syntactic blending?  They are
>       >>common in bureaucratic/business speech and writing, but
>       >>investigation is a delicate matter.  People I've questioned haven't
>       >>known where they got the phrase.  Some were scarcely aware that they
>       >>had used it, some became indignant at having their wordsmithing
>       >>remarked upon or irritated at not knowing where the malaphore came
>       >>from, and a few have conceded they had probably confused a phrase or
>       >>two.
>       >>Se??n Fitzpatrick
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 00:37:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:37:50 EDT
Subject: Caketails & Pietinis; Murder Burger & Mugly
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.203750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAKETAILS & PIETINIS

   From today's WALL STREET JOURNAL (I can't copy it; NYU Bobst has
restricted FACTIVA access and I'm avoiding the Bobst and its falling objects for a few
days), 15 October 2003, pg. 1, col. 4:

_Dinner and Drinks?_
_Now, They Come_
_In the Same Glass_

_"Bar Chefs" Add Ham, Basil_
   _And Gelatin to Cocktails;_
   _"Bloody Mary on a Plate"_
(...)
   Then there's the dessert cocktail.  A few months ago, the woners of the
New York City restaurant Dylan Prime, who also run a cocktail consulting company
called Drink Tank, developed Caketails and Pietinis, or cocktails that
imitate the taste of cake and pie.

(There's a photo of "The Amaretto Cheesecake Caketail," so expect this to
take off as the next hot food thing, just behind that naked "body sushi"--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
MURDER BURGER

   I was walking to my miserable little (now non-paying!) job in the Bronx
and passed a sign at First Way Deli-Grocery, 1030 East Tremont Avenue, "HOME OF
THE MURDER BURGER."
   Can this be true?  A home for "Murder" advertised in the Bronx?
   I spoke to the man behind the counter.  It's simply a cheeseburger with
the works--lettuce, pickles. etc.  No, I didn't want to try "murder."
   There is a California franchise with this name.  It advertises burgers "to
die for."  Hey guys, Godfather's Pizza went out of business because of puns
like this.

(TRADEMARKS)
Typed Drawing
Word Mark     MURDER BURGER
Goods and Services  IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT AND CARRY-OUT SERVICES.
FIRST USE: 19860602. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860602
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73611195
Filing Date July 24, 1986
Published for Opposition    December 30, 1986
Registration Number 1434346
Registration Date   March 24, 1987
Owner   (REGISTRANT) MURDER BURGER, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 978 OLIVE
DRIVE DAVIS CALIFORNIA 95616
Attorney of Record  LEWIS ANTEN
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BURGER" APART
FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MUGLY

   I was looking through my GOOD HOUSEKEEPING files for "pie a la mode" when
I found April 1889, pg. 255, "Every-Day Desserts...Mugly...255."  Another
recipe for "Mugly" appears about a year later.
   Mugly?  An ugly mug?  Monkey ugly?  Mother-fucking ugly is an everyday
dessert?
    "Mugly"--the slang term--is not in the HDAS and not in the CASSELL
DICTIONARY OF SLANG.  There are several entries at urbandictionary.com.
    I didn't see "mugly" in the American Peiodical Series Online.  It must
not have made the LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, for some reason.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 16 00:41:05 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:41:05 -0500
Subject: a lexical blend
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.194105.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last Wednesday an announcer at the Cubs/Marlins game said in
reference to a pitcher's performance: "That was a galliant effort."
(valiant + gallant).

Gerald Cohen



At 7:16 PM -0500 10/15/03, Erin McKean wrote:
>...
>Yet another instance of being reminded of a linguistic process and then
>hearing it everywhere ...


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 16 01:35:05 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:35:05 -0400
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"
Message-ID: <WED.15.OCT.2003.213505.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In support of Fred's arguments against a 1902 date for "movie," I used
ancestry.com tonight to search for "Murine/movie."  There WAS a hit in a
Wisconsin paper from 1915.  It, indeed, said "After the movies, Murine your
eyes."  But there was NO such ad from 1902-1914.

Murine, as a product appears in 1904.  It may appear earlier, but I didn't
check before 1902.  But I  DID spot check Murine from 1902-1914.  I read
perhaps 50-70 ads.  There were probably 100-200 ads.  There was no "movie"
there.  They seem to have started that ad campaign in 1915.  I might be off
by a year or so, if checking each hit was important.  But there were few ads
in the 1904-1908 period.  The ads increased in the 1910-1915 period.  And,
since it appears that it was a Chicago product, the ads mostly appeared in
the Wisconsin/Iowa papers.

I think Fred nailed this one.

SC

I also searched for "Murine."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: Correction of OED/HDAS Dating of "Movie"


> HDAS cites the following as its first use of the word "movie":
>
> 1902 Jarrold _Mickey Finn_ (ad on rev. title):  After the Movies "Murine"
> Your Eyes.
>
> This citation, much earlier than anything else that has been found as far
> as I know, is repeated in OED.
>
> Sam Clements has graciously obtained a copy of the book referred to above,
> _Mickey Finn's New Irish Yarns_ (1902), which he has lent to me.  There is
> no advertisement on the reverse of the title page and, although there are
> ads in the back of the book, none of them includes the "movie" usage.  I
> think that, unless someone locates another copy of the book that does
> contain the Murine ad, the OED/HDAS cite should be considered erroneous.
>
> As I have indicated before, this leaves the following citation (from
> ProQuest Historical Newspapers) as the earliest known usage of "movie":
>
> 1911 _Wash. Post_ 1 Aug. 6  I learned how to bake stuffed tomatoes at the
> 'movies' last night.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 05:55:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:55:22 EDT
Subject: Screwdriver (1952)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.015522.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1938 and not the 1950s, but I
thought I'd look for an early "screwdriver" on Ancestry.


   24 December 1952, TIMES-RECORDER (Zanesville, Ohio), pg.9-D, col. 4:
   "BRING ME a screwdriver, please," a customer told a waiter in a cafe here
the other day.
   "A screwdriver?  Is there something wrong with the table, sir?" said the
waiter...who found out, that way, that a "screwdriver" is a mixture of vodka
and orange juice.

(Earl WIlson's syndicated column...Ancestry says this is from 1953, but the
"Merry Christmas 1952" editorial tipped me off.  It's 1952--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 16 06:44:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:44:48 EDT
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.024448.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That Invented
Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
by <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books%26field-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-7641756">Tyler Anbinder</A>


   In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it is true,
is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
   I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-Webster's 11th has
1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I gotta go.


   21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana), pg.9, col. 5:
   The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out by such
inanities.

(O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 16 13:37:47 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:37:47 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)--how about 1911?
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.093747.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From ancestry.com, The Washington Post, January 29, 1911.  (P. 3, col. 3)

     "Karl Emmy's pets, Bissett and Scott, in fance tap dancing and catchy
songs, and the Royal Colibris, lilliputian comedians, in their fanciful
sketch, "The Baby, the Nurse, and the Corporal," complete the bill."

(I'm still trying to figure out why Karl's pets had names like Bissett and
Scott  <rimshot> )

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:44 AM
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)


> Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood That
Invented
> Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
> by <A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books%26fiel
d-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-7641756">Tyler Anbinder</A>
>
>
>    In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it is
true,
> is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
>    I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-Webster's 11th
has
> 1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I gotta go.
>
>
>    21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana), pg.9, col.
5:
>    The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out by such
> inanities.
>
> (O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Oct 16 15:18:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:18:09 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.111809.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The idea that tap-dancing was invented in the 5 Points is based on the idea that it is a mingling of Irish and Afro-American styles of dancing.  There was a notable black dancer in NYC in the 1830s who called himself Master Juba.  He was seen by Dickens while Dickens was on a slumming tour of the 5 Points, and his dancing described in "American Notes".  I suppose as a result of this publicity, he went to England and danced, dying there at a young age.  He had cutting contests (not so called) with "Master Diamond" in the city theaters, for large prizes.  I don't have notes on any of the contests between Juba and Diamond, but several are cited in Odell's History of the New York Stage.

In the scrap below, "negro dancers" means either "black-face" or "in the negro style".  $500 was a hell of a lot of money.
        The grand match between the celebrated negro dancers Master Diamond and R. W. Pelham, recently attached to the Broadway Circus, is to be danced tonight to decide the wager of $500.  ***  The judges of the match will award the stake to the successful competitor on the stage, and in the presence of the audience.  ***  Morning Herald, February 13, 1840, p. 3, col. 1;
Chatham Theatre.  ***  This evening, the rivals Diamond and Pelham, will again dance together, not to decide a wager, but to submit it to the audience, which of the two can come it the strongest in the smoke house dance, Virginia break-down, Long-Island double-shuffle, or the Campdown hornpipe; the whole entertainment being for the benefit of Master Diamond.
Morning Herald, February 19, 1840, p. 2, col. 5;
Broadway Circus. -- Sweeney, the king of melody, and Diamond, the prince of darkey dancers [will perform].  Morning Herald, February 20, 1840, p. 3, col. 1.

Diamond was evidently white.
Disorderly conduct. -- Last evening the lad John Diamond, who exhibits his powers in imitating the African race, by dancing, &c at various public places of amusement, was arrested . . . for most outrageous conduct at the house of Mary Jane Montgomery, No. 102 Church street.  ***  MC&N-Y Enquirer, August 17, 1844, p. 2, col. 4.

The real name of "Master Juba" is generally said to be William Henry Lane, but there may have been more than one man using the name.  Compare the case of "Little Egypt".
Lewis Davis, alias Master Juber, a gentleman ob [sic] color, professing to be a self-taught musician, and the tutor of master Diamond, and, withal, a public character, being at present engaged in travelling through the states, dancing negro extravaganzas, break-downs, &c., accompanying himself on the guitar, under the cognomen Master Juber [is accused by] Patrick Halenback, a black waiter of the steam boat DeWitt Clinton [of robbing him of a parcel].  NY Daily Express, September 14, 1840, p. 2, col. 5

To bring this back to philology, here are a couple more names of dances.
[a small boy, 5, who had learned to dance "'Jim along Josie' and 'Flat Foot' in imitation of more devoted negro representatives on the stage" is picked up on the streets at 11 o'clock]  NY D Tribune, August 9, 1841, p. 2, col. 4

Names of these newspapers spelled out on request.

There is a note on Master Juba, with a picture, at http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2juba1.htm
This says he toured the U. S. under P. T. Barnum and died in Philadelphia in 1857, which differs from what I have said above, which is what I recall having read elsewhere, but I won't say it's wrong.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2003 2:44 am
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)

> Five Points: The Nineteenth-Century New York City Neighborhood
> That Invented
> Tap Dance, Stole Elections and Became the Worlds Most Notorious Slum
> by http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-
> url/index=books%26field-author=Anbinder%2C%20Tyler/102-4945333-
> 7641756">Tyler Anbinder
>
>
>   In the name of the late Gregory Hines--is this true?  And if it
> is true,
> is there a plaque anywhere in NYC to mark the spot of that first tap?
>   I'm away from my ProQuest databases right now.  Merriam-
> Webster's 11th has
> 1928.  There are some more "hits" to check (Sam can look), but I
> gotta go.
>
>
>   21 December 1924, INDIANAPOLIS STAR (Indianapolis, Indiana),
> pg.9, col. 5:
>   The old buck and wing and tap dancing should not be snuffed out
> by such
> inanities.
>
> (O.O. McIntyre column from New York--ed.)
>


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Oct 16 15:27:31 2003
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:27:31 -0400
Subject: Tap Dancing (1924)
In-Reply-To: <2e2326c2e244c6.2e244c62e2326c@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.112731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:18 AM -0400 George Thompson
<george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

> The idea that tap-dancing was invented in the 5 Points is based on the
> idea that it is a mingling of Irish and Afro-American styles of dancing.
>
I think a better conjecture would be on the island of Barbados where Irish
were exiled to by Cromwell after the conquest of Ulster that was begun
under Elizabeth I. In 1649 12,000 men were transported.  These redlegs and
their descendants inhabited a place where slave ships deposited their human
cargo and they intermarried with Africans.  The similarity of Irish dance
and tap certainly suggests some influence and Barbados is a likely place.


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 16 21:10:01 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:10:01 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141001.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to the Latinteach
list the following:

... one student 3 times used a word [in an assignment]
  I have never
seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
thought I would run it past all of you in case someone
recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or can
anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.

Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
particularly muleociated with the institution of
marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
association works here, but that persistently was not
the word he chose.

I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
head.

(end quote)

Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
three places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system,
and a couple of others for developers of the open source version of
Netscape's browser, Mozilla.

Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation

Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
muleociation with Far Cry.

[and]

http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html

\"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is
instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view object with it,
commonly known as a view.

(end quote)

Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
"Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to
be a signature file which is no longer in use.

Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:

http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23mozilla.2002-12-23.log

09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk" mond="moon" so there
09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in n.p.m.reviewers using
censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate :-)
09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was translation... makes more sense now

(end quote)

Cf. "mucilage"?

A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned up no hits at all.

Has anyone here run across the term before, and does anyone have an
idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular areas, and
whether it (usually) bears any distinction in meaning from
"association"?

Thanks!

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 16 21:11:45 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:11:45 -0700
Subject: a-prefixing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.33.0310151431100.4871-100000@ux5.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141145.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 01:33 PM, Sonja L Launspach wrote:

> I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was
> wondering
> what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is
> it
> no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
> younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?

the ozarks and the sea islands, at least.

walt wolfram and his collaborators are the a-prefixing mavens.

> Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
> but I haven't found anything recent.

works from the 80s on the appalachians and the ozarks.  more recently,
e.g.,

Wolfram, Walt & Natalie Schilling-Estes. 1997.  Hoi toide on the Outer
Banks.  Chapel Hill: Univ. of NC Press.

arnold


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct 16 21:12:20 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:12:20 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002003bbb4b482e477@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.141220.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

mule - ass, get  it?


--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:
> A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to
> the Latinteach
> list the following:
>
> ... one student 3 times used a word [in an
> assignment]
>   I have never
> seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
> seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
> thought I would run it past all of you in case
> someone
> recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or
> can
> anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.
>
> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was
> not
> the word he chose.
>
> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my
> student's
> head.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Searches for assorted forms of the word
> ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a
> handful of uses in
> three places: a discussion forum for players of the
> Xbox game system,
> and a couple of others for developers of the open
> source version of
> Netscape's browser, Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means
> "association":
>
>
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere
> to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
>
http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom
> view is
> instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view
> object with it,
> commonly known as a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain
> in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation,"
> but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.
>
> Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:
>
>
http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23mozilla.2002-12-23.log
>
> 09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk"
> mond="moon" so there
> 09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in
> n.p.m.reviewers using
> censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate
> :-)
> 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
> translation... makes more sense now
>
> (end quote)
>
> Cf. "mucilage"?
>
> A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned
> up no hits at all.
>
> Has anyone here run across the term before, and does
> anyone have an
> idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular
> areas, and
> whether it (usually) bears any distinction in
> meaning from
> "association"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **
>  Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Thu Oct 16 22:16:12 2003
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:16:12 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <20031016211220.21102.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.151612.0700.>

that's an asinine way of 'improving' the English language ;)

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of James Smith
Sent: October 16, 2003 2:12 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


mule - ass, get  it?


--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:
> A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to
> the Latinteach
> list the following:
>
> ... one student 3 times used a word [in an
> assignment]
>   I have never
> seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
> seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
> thought I would run it past all of you in case
> someone
> recognizes it as either a word or a misspelling or
> can
> anyone figure out where in Hades he got it.
>
> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was
> not
> the word he chose.
>
> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my
> student's
> head.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Searches for assorted forms of the word
> ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a
> handful of uses in
> three places: a discussion forum for players of the
> Xbox game system,
> and a couple of others for developers of the open
> source version of
> Netscape's browser, Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means
> "association":
>
>
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere
> to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
>
http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom
> view is
> instantiate your tree and then muleociate a view
> object with it,
> commonly known as a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain
> in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation,"
> but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.
>
> Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:
>
>
http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23
mozilla.2002-12-23.log
>
> 09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk"
> mond="moon" so there
> 09:30 < Neil> heh, someone posting in
> n.p.m.reviewers using
> censorware - associate gets turned into muleociate
> :-)
> 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
> translation... makes more sense now
>
> (end quote)
>
> Cf. "mucilage"?
>
> A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned
> up no hits at all.
>
> Has anyone here run across the term before, and does
> anyone have an
> idea of its origin, if it's common in any particular
> areas, and
> whether it (usually) bears any distinction in
> meaning from
> "association"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **
>  Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Oct 16 22:35:45 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:35:45 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.173545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear John:

Sorry, but is this a joke?

>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student is
using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some folks'
hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
extremes.

I once had an editor who wouldn't let me refer to a mythical country song
named "It Took A Hell of a Man to Take My Ann, But It Sure Didn't Take Him
Long" on the basis of his impression that the "Take" in the title referred
to the Biblical sense of "take" as "sexually possess." More importantly, I
suppose, he was worried that the readers of the metropolis of San Antonio
Texas would assume that meaning -- and furthermore, that they would care.

Perhaps I'm too simplistic, but FWIW.
Susan Yerkes

   -----Original Message-----
From: John McChesney-Young [mailto:panis at PACBELL.NET]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 4:10 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Muleociation


A high school teacher in Bryn Athyn, PA, posted to the Latinteach list the
following:

... one student 3 times used a word [in an assignment]
  I have never
seen, nor have my colleagues on the faculty who have
seen it.  He obviously thinks it has a meaning, so I
thought I would run it past all of you in case someone recognizes it as
either a word or a misspelling or can anyone figure out where in Hades he
got it.

Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
particularly muleociated with the institution of
marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
association works here, but that persistently was not
the word he chose.

I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
head.

(end quote)

Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in three
places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a couple
of others for developers of the open source version of Netscape's browser,
Mozilla.

Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":

http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation

Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
muleociation with Far Cry.

[and]

http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html

\"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate your
tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as a view.

(end quote)

Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase, "Proud
member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to be a
signature file which is no longer in use.

Here's a place where the sense is clearly different:

http://www.pseudorandom.org/irclog/mozilla/%23mozilla/%23mozilla.2002-12/%23
mozilla.2002-12-23.log

09:29 < biesi> bsmedberg: german reden="to talk" mond="moon" so there 09:30
< Neil> heh, someone posting in n.p.m.reviewers using censorware - associate
gets turned into muleociate :-) 09:30 < bsmedberg> biesi: I figured it was
translation... makes more sense now

(end quote)

Cf. "mucilage"?

A check of Usenet via Google's Groups search turned up no hits at all.

Has anyone here run across the term before, and does anyone have an idea of
its origin, if it's common in any particular areas, and whether it (usually)
bears any distinction in meaning from "association"?

Thanks!

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message.


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 16 23:09:27 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:09:27 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <200310162236.h9GMaOiw010758@mtac1.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.160927.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET> asked:

>Sorry, but is this a joke?

In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only
observe that the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken
in, if that's the appropriate phrase for our common state of
innocence.

>>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student is
>using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
>substitute for the word "ass"

Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach
list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for
"woman," something I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
- although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed
otherwise.

which still is enough to raise some folks'
>hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
>of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
>extremes.

I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether
an attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a
genuinely unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of
some other motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it,
I'm puzzled by its use in a serious high school assignment and I'd
still be interested in reports of its non-colloquial use.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 16 23:09:45 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:09:45 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <A77F47C541025144B174E0C78425D70B9F5E61@saenexch.saen.express-news.net>
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.160945.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 03:35 PM, Yerkes, Susan wrote,
replying to john mcchesney-young's forwarding of a query about
"muleociation" in a high school student's writing:

> Sorry, but is this a joke?

there is the "heaveno" for "hello" business, so someone involved could
have meant this sort of seriously.  but it looks like a jocular coining
to me; i hear adolescent giggling.  of course, once coined, a word can
spread in many ways, and its origins can be lost.

> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
> student is
> using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some
> folks'
> hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
> sort
> of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum
> to
> extremes.

i think the person who thought this up should be mulemuleinated.

from the teacher:

> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
> head.

well, from *some* body part.

john:

> Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
> three
> places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a
> couple
> of others for developers of the open source version of Netscape's
> browser,
> Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":
>
> http://forum.teamxbox.com/
> showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
> threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
> http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate
> your
> tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as a
> view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
> "Proud
> member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to be a
> signature file which is no longer in use.

if you *really* want to pursue the matter, you could ask the writers of
these passages where they got the word and what they think they were
conveying by using it.  of course, they might not be willing to give
you any muleistance.

arnold


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Oct 16 23:12:43 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:12:43 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.181243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gotcha. It is really puzzling when somebody puts what seems like a very
silly word joke and sticks it someplace that not even a pun is apt (As in,
perhaps, "in some parts of the country, the Democrat party is often
muleociated with the common ass."

-----Original Message-----
From: John McChesney-Young [mailto:panis at PACBELL.NET]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 6:09 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


"Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET> asked:

>Sorry, but is this a joke?

In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only observe that
the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken in, if that's the
appropriate phrase for our common state of innocence.

>>From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
>student is using the word "mule" as a questionably punny substitute for
>the word "ass"

Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach list I
now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for "woman," something
I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
- although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed otherwise.

which still is enough to raise some folks'
>hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
>sort of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass
>dictum to extremes.

I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether an
attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a genuinely
unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of some other
motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it, I'm puzzled by its
use in a serious high school assignment and I'd still be interested in
reports of its non-colloquial use.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


This e-mail message is intended only for the personal use of the recipient(s) named above. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, copy or distribute this message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the San Antonio Express-News Help Desk (helpdesk at express-news.net) immediately by e-mail and delete the original message.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 00:53:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:53:30 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.205330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from "Death Valley" here at the NYU Bobst Library.
  FOR GOD'S SAKE, KIDS, DON'T JUMP!  THAT'S INSANE!  THE STOCK MARKET'S GOING UP!!!!!

   The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at July 1939, and not a moment too soon for Halloween is perhaps the origin of "trick or treat."
   It's a little long, but I'll type the whole thing.



HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 30, 1938.                   p. A8 (1 page):
_GETTING IN PRACTICE FOR NIGHT OF FUN_
(Photo--ed.)
(Photo caption--ed.)  Elio Martini, left, and Wendy Rough tie bicycle to post as prelude to Halloween.
_HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED_
_BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND_
   "Trick or treat!" is the Halloween hijacking game hundreds of Southern California youngsters will play tomorrow night as they practice streamlined versions of traditional Allhallows Eve pranks.
   The preparations are simple: a bar of soap, some old films and a couple of Times funny papers clipped into confetti.  From house to house the boys and girls will travel, punching doorbells with nerve-jangling peals.
_TINY GOON SQUAD_
   "Trick or treat!" is the terse command as the householder peeks warily around the door.  "If you don't give us something, we'll play a trick on you.  You wouldn't want your porch littered with paper, or your windows soaped, or a smelly roll of burning film left around, would you?"
   So the diminutive Halloween goon squads are bought off with cookies, candy, tickless alarm clocks or the price of an ice cream cone.
_SIGNBOARDS TARGET_
   With election but a week away it will be a field night for the Halloween billboard artists.  The more subtle pranksters already have spotted all the wind socks in their vicinity and are stuffing shirts with rumpled papers, ready to be judiciously affixed to candidates' signboards.  Where no wind socks are available, a well blown-up paper bag will make an acceptable substitute.  Less imaginative of the costumed prowlers Monday night will be content to change the benign expressions of the pictured candidates with ferocious mustaches and beetle-browed frowns.
_FEW GATES LEFT_
   Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops, loose kiddie cars and motor scooters can be hitched to doorknobs, trash baskets can be emptied on front lawns and flower pots can appear on chimneys.  Portable (Next column--ed.) signs that unwary filling station proprietors forget to take in always make good decorations for streetcars and city halls.
   The automobile will be subjected to unusual hazards Halloween night.  If the windows escape a few "nerts" and "foos" scrawled in soap or paraffin, the owner is sure to find a shirt clothespinned to the radio aerial or a stack of tin cans tied on the axle.
_DUMMIES PREPARED_
   Of course, Halloween funsters are even now fixing lifelike dummies to be placed on busy thoroughfares just to give motorists a bad half-minute or to send police with sirens screaming to "investigate a dead body."
   Pumpkins will never lose their appeal for the very young at Halloween time.  Although some of the jack-o'-lanterns now are lighted with flashlights and even wired for sound, most of the faces stick to the traditional toothy grins and triangles for eyes and noses.
   It's a grumpy citizen indeed that won't be frightened into shrieks at the appearance of a little imp on Halloween night, attired in a spooky costume and carrying a lighted pumpkin and a rattling chain.


("Nerts" and "foos"?...Greenwich Village has a big party.  For something really scary, dress up as a Chicago Cub--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 17 00:53:13 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:53:13 -0500
Subject: Fwd--Information on "The Sporting News"
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.195313.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, from SABR (Society for American Baseball Research).

Gerald Cohen


>Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:51:08 -0500
>From: jzajc at SABR.org
>Subject: [SABR Info] This Week in SABR, October 16, 2003
>To: gcohen at umr.edu
>
>I have exciting news to share!
>
>Cold North Wind is digitizing the old "Bible of Baseball"--The
>Sporting News--for Paper of Record (www.paperofrecord.com).
>Preparing for a November 1 launch date, they are offering all SABR
>members an almost 50% discount on the annual subscription to Paper
>of Record. I just bought my subscription and found myself fascinated
>in searching through the very few Sporting News they already have
>posted. And I did not even begin to imagine what else I could search
>for with all the other digitized papers they have available. This is
>a big step forward for baseball research.
>
>To take advantage of this offer, which expires November 15, go to
>the SABR members-only site: http://members.sabr.org
>
>Log On (if you have forgotten your username and password, click the
>link just below the log  on section; also, be aware that name means
>username, not your given name)
>
>Click the Paper of Record box in the lower left-hand corner.
>
>Follow the directions.
>...
>Thank you for your support of SABR,
>
>John Zajc
>Executive Director


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 17 00:55:37 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:55:37 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Hero(1939) Sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.205537.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't want to steal any of Barry's thunder, but his recent diatribe
against the NYT shafting him once again, got me searching.

Ancestry.com, from The Charleston(WV) Daily Mail, June 23, 1939,  page
5/column 4:

     Tastiest tidbits on the Island are toasted rolls and bacon at Child's,
the clams and shrimp cocktails at the Clam Bar, the honey buns at Hirsch's,
the shashlik, fried shrimp, fried clams and chow mein on the boardwalk, the
sunshine cocktail and shore dinner at Scoville's, the Hero Sandwich (a loaf
of Italian bread with ham and Swiss, American or Bel Paese cheese), and, of
course the hot corn and frankfurters all along the route.

I have no doubt that Barry has searched ancestry for this, but the damn
search engine requires skill, art, luck, and.......most of all luck.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 02:33:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:33:33 -0400
Subject: Caciocavallo (1673)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.223333.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There are 17,200 Google hits for "caciocavallo" cheese.  It is not in the OED.

http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=731
 caciocavallo cheese
 [kah-choh-kuh-VAH-loh]
 From southern Italy, caciocavallo  (meaning "cheese on horseback") is said to date back to the 14th century, and believed by some to have originally been made from mare's milk. Today's caciocavallo  comes from cow's milk and has a mild, slightly salty flavor and firm, smooth texture when young (about 2 months). As it ages, the flavor becomes more pungent and the texture more granular, making it ideal for grating. Caciocavallo is one of the pasta filata  types of cheeses (like PROVOLONE and MOZZARELLA), which means it has been stretched and shaped by hand. It may be purchased plain or smoked and comes in string-tied gourd or spindle shapes.



Title
 Observations topographical, moral, & physiological; made in a journey through part of the Low-countries, Germany, Italy, and France: with a catalogue of plants not native of England, found spontaneously growing in those parts, and their virtues. By John Ray ... Whereunto is added A brief account of Francis Willughby esq; his voyage through a great part of Spain.
Imprint
London, Printed for J. Martyn, 1673.

   Gerald Cohen asked me to re-read this book for the Pg. 224 passage.

Pg. 224:  The _Bologna_ sausages, washballs, and little dogs are much esteemed and talked of in all _Italy_ and elsewhere.
(Yes, it's "washball" or "wash-ball" as printed--ed.)

Pg. 401:  They eat also many sorts of _shell-fish_, which we either have not or meddle not with, as Purples, Periwinkles of several sorts, _Patellae_ or Limpets, Sea-urchins, which last are to be found every day in the markets at _Naples_.
(OED has 1753 for "patellae"--ed.)

Pg. 407:  In the Kingdoms of _Naples_ and _Sicily_ they make a sort of cheese which they call _Caseo di cavallo_, i. e. Horse-cheese, for what reason I could not learn.  These cheeses they make up in several forms; some in the fashion of a blown bladder, some in the fashion of a cylinder and some in other figures.  They are neither fat nor strong, yet well-tasted and acceptable (Pg. 408--ed.) to such as have eaten of them awhile.  The pulp or body of them lies in flakes and hath as it were a grain one way like wood.  They told us that they were made of Buffles milk, but we believed them not, because we observed not many Buffles in those Countries, where there is more of this cheese made than of other sorts.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 03:21:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:21:02 -0400
Subject: San Quentin slang (1936)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.232102.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      My San Quentin Years
       James B Holohay.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 6, 1936.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   The bright boys who get out The San Quentin Bulletin, a convict-edited and prison-published magazine that would do credit to any publishing house, have compiled a dictionary of prison slang.
(...)
   I append here a glossary of the most interesting of the prison words as compiled by The Bulletin staff:
ALKY, alcohol.
ANGLE, to scheme.
BEAK, judge.
BEND, to steal.
BLOT OUT, to kill.
BREEZE, to leave.
BUG, burglar alarm.
BUM BEEF, punishment without reason.
BURIED, to be held incommunicado by police.
BROOM, disappear hastily.
BONARUE, good, excellent.
BOX, a safe, a phonograph.
BINDLE, a paper of narcotics.
BANK, a dope, a shot.
BACK DOOR PAROLE, to die in prison.
BLOW YOUR COPPER, to lose good time prison credits.
BUCK, a Catholic priest.
CASE DOUGH, a limited amount of money.
CAUGHT IN A SNOWSTORM, drugged iwth cocaine.
CRAZY ALLEY, a fenced-in section at San Quentin where slightly daffy prisoners are kept.\
COPPER-HEARTED, by nature a police informer.
CREEP-JOINT, a gambling house that moves to a different apartment each night.
CRIB, a safe.
CROW McGEE, no good, not the real stuff.
CECIL, cocaine.  (Must be "the straight dope"--ed.)
CROAKER, a doctor.
COPPER, good prison records.
COP A HEEL, assault someone from behind.
DINAH, nitroglycerine.
DRILL, to shoot.
DROPPER, a paid killer.
DUMMY UP, shut up.
DINGALINGS, goofy prisoners, or those called "stir simple" after long years in prison.
DUFFER, bread.
EYE, detective.
FINGER-MAN, person who obtains detailed information.
FOG, to shoot.
FALL GUY, one who takes the "beef."
FALL MONEY, bail and legal fees.
FENCE, one who buys stolen goods.
FINK, a squealer, a rat an informer.
FIN, a five-doller bill.
FIN UP, five-years-to-life.
GOY, a gentile.
GREASE, money paid for protection.
GLOM, grab, steal.
GRAND, $1000.
GANDER, look, walk.
GREEN GOODS, counterfeit money.
GOW, morphine.
GARBAGE, food.
GUM HEEL, police officer.
HEAT, trouble.
HERDER, guard in prison.
HIDE-OUT, a place of refuge.
HIJACK, to steal or extort personal belongings from fellow cons.
HIST, to hold-up, to hijack.
HEELED, armed with gun or plenty of money.
HYPE, narcotic addict, to short change.
HOLE, the convict name for San Quentin's dungeon.
HOOD, hoodlum.
HOT, a stolen object.
HEBE, a Jew.
HINCTY, suspicious.
JINNY, a blind pig.
JUNK, dope.
KICK BACK, to return to victim that of which he has been robbed.
KICK OVER, to rob.
KOSHER, not guilty, clean.
KIP, a bed.
LIFEBOAT, a pardon, a commutation of sentence.
LIP, a lawyer.
McCOY, genuine.
MESHUGA, crazy.
MUSCLE IN, to secure a share by force.
MUG, photo.
NOSE, a police spy.
ON THE ERIE, shut up, someone is listening.
OFFICE, a signal, a cue.
ON THE MUSCLE, angry, quarrelsome.
OUT, an alibi.
PATSY, all right.
PAY-OFF MAN, cashier of a mob.
PUT THE CROSS ON, to mark for death.
QUEENS, effeminate convicts.
ROSCOE, a hand-gun.
SHAG, worthless.
TRIGGER MAN, boydguard.
SLAM OFF, to die.
SWAMP, to arrest.
SLIM, a police spy.
TOMMY, a machine gun.
SNEEZE, to kidnap.
TOMMY GEE, a machine-gunner.
SPEAR, to arrest.
TORPEDO, an assassin.
SHIN, a knife or other contraband, dagger, stiletto.
SQUEEZE, to graft.
SIBERIA, solitary confinement cells.
   In connection with the word "fink," which, I understand, became widely used during the strike troubles in San Francisco in 1934, I might say that "fink" is the most hated man in prison.  "Squealing" is rare.  I have seen men dying from a knife wound suffered during a quarrel in the yard.  But they wouldn't tell who did it.  And you couldn't have beaten the information out of any witnesses with a baseball bat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 03:53:23 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:53:23 -0400
Subject: Le Roy Young slang dictionary (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.16.OCT.2003.235323.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      Around and About in Holvwood
       READ KENDALL.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 13, 1935.                   p. 9 (1 page):
_HEALY DEFINES_
_A STOOGE_
   Generally conceded to be the foremost expert on stooges, Ted Healy yesterday was called upon to give his definition of this gentry by a Chicagoan, Le Roy Young, who is compiling a dictionary on slang.  Here it is:
   "STOOGE: A man, woman, child or dummy, employed by a mug (See Mug) for the purposes of feeding (See Feeding) cues to the latter in an endeavor to build up (See Build up) or plus (See Plug) a gag, joke, speech or song.  Synonyms: Builder-upper, yes man, feeder, shadow."


(Does anyone know what slang dictionary that Chicagoan Le Roy Young has published?...Where oh where is that Chicago Tribune?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 08:46:45 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:46:45 EDT
Subject: Frozen Custard (1919); Sam is my Hero
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.044645.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SAM IS MY HERO
  
I have no doubt that Barry has searched ancestry for this, but the damn
search engine requires skill, art, luck, and.......most of all luck.
SC
  
   Have doubt.  I never searched for it!
   Why?  Because there are 30,000 food terms I have to antedate in my spare 
time, when I'm not comatose from parking tickets.  I could've done it, but I 
just didn't.  I traced "hero" to Brooklyn, and just thought I'd wait until the 
BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE project was finished and the Brooklyn Historical Society 
re-opened.
   Sam beat me to it!
   The 1939 citation is important.  I'd previously looked at Clementine 
Paddeford's work, and "hero" ain't there in 1936.
   Sam should immediately write a letter to the editor of the NEW YORK TIMES 
and share his find (free of charge) with the rest of the world.  Do it!
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FROZEN CUSTARD
    
   The "hero sandwich" citation  was in a Coney Island article, written by 
Walter Winchell.  It also has this:
  
   23 June 1939, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 5, 
col. 4:
   One of the resort's most popular palate tempters--frozen custard--was 
invented by mistake.  The inventor was really trying to perfect a new ice-cream 
mixer which didn't work.
  
  
   Why is Conery Island "frozen custard" less celebrated than the "hot dog"?  
Get out your old reliable John F. Mariani ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND 
DRINK (1999), look for "custard" and "frozen custard," and there's...nothing at 
all!
   It's widely known that the stuff was popularized at Coney Island in 1919.  
A check of the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE up to 1902 for "frozen custard" has no 
hits.  However, Ancestry has quite a few hits before 1919 and I'll type some 
here.  As to frozen custard's invention "by mistake," well, it was already well 
known by 1919.  Another myth?

    
   30 January 1885, CHESTER TIMES (Chester, Pennsylvania), pg.3?, col. 5:
Frozen Custard.
(Menu item at Aubrey Hotel--ed.)
  
   31 July 1910, COSHOCTON DAILY TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg. 4?, col. 2:
      _FROZEN CUSTARD._
   Make a quart of rich vanilla custard and when it is cold add a cupful of 
cream and the beaten whites of three eggs used in the quart of milk.  Mix well 
and freeze.  More sugar and vanilla are required in the mixture when frozen 
than in the custard simply served cold.
        
   18 August 1910, COSHOCTON DAILY TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg. 3, cols. 
5-6:
_FROZEN CUSTARDS--THEY'RE OFTEN BETTER THAN ICE CREAM_
(Excellent, long article.  Invented by mistake in 1919, eh?--ed.)
  
   14 March 1921, WICHITA DAILY TIMES (Wichita Falls, Texas), pg. 3, cols. 
6-7:
Frozen Boiled
Custard
ICE CREAM
(Something New)
ONLY AT WINSTON'S
"AS PURE AS THE MORNING DEW ON THE ROSES"
TAKE A PAIL HOME
Winston's Drug Store
    
   29 November 1929, RENO EVENING GAZETTE (Reno, Nevada), pg.4, col. 3:
   Frozen custard stands like those at Coney Island.
("In New York" by O. O. McIntyre--ed.)
  
   23 August 1933, WAUKESHA FREEMAN (Waukesha, Wisconsin), pg.4, col. 4:
   Now Broadway, that Coney Island annex, is dotted with cubicles dispensing 
giant receptacles for the frozen custard, some weird with modernistic lining.
  
   29 June 1934, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 8, 
col. 8:
   Surf avenue, Coney Island's Broadway...Sea-food, chop suey, kewpie dolls, 
frozen custard, hula dancers, hotels by day or week, two big feature pictures.
  
   13 June 1936, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg.4, 
col. 8:
   Frozen Custard With Chocolate Dip, 5 cents.
  
  
(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark    KOHR'S THE ORIGINAL FROZEN CUSTARD 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: ice cream, frozen 
yogurt, frozen custard(ABANDONED) IC 032. US 046. G & S: beverages
Mark Drawing Code   (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM 
Serial Number   74383844    
Filing Date April 28, 1993  
Filed ITU   FILED AS ITU    
Owner   (APPLICANT) Kohr's Frozen Custard The Original, Inc. CORPORATION NEW 
JERSEY P.O. Box 176 Seaside Heights NEW JERSEY 08751 
Attorney of Record  Edward F. Liston, Jr.   
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    February 23, 1994   

(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark   THE ORIGINAL SINCE 1919 KOHR BROS FROZEN CUSTARD    
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: frozen custard, fruit sorbet, ice 
cream, ice milk, frozen yogurt. FIRST USE: 19190600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 
19190600IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services; namely, soda fountain 
services and frozen custard store services. FIRST USE: 19190600. FIRST USE IN 
COMMERCE: 19190600 
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  130102 200306 261121 261128 
Serial Number   74236274    
Filing Date January 9, 1992 
Published for Opposition    March 29, 1994  
Registration Number 1940323 
Registration Date   December 12, 1995   
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Kohr Bros., Inc. CORPORATION PENNSYLVANIA 2115 BERKMAR 
DRIVE CHARLOTTESVILLE VIRGINIA 22901  
Attorney of Record  James C. Wray   
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "FROZEN CUSTARD" 
and "BROS" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN   
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK 
Register    PRINCIPAL-2(F)-IN PART  
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). 
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.kohrbros.com/coney.html
Our founder, Archie C. Kohr, was born in York, PA in 1893 on the family's 
dairy farm. He was a teacher and to supplement his income, he and his two teenage 
brothers started a home delivery milk business.
  
In 1917, Archie wanted to expand his business by selling homemade ice cream 
to his customers.  He had developed a special recipe and purchased a locally 
made batch ice cream freezer. But it didn't work properly.
  
He tore the machine apart, reconfigured the gearing and bearings, reshaped 
the barrel and blades and ran his recipe through it once more.  The result was 
perfection!  In the summer of 1919 they took Archie's new machine and his 
fabulous frozen custard recipe to Coney Island's boardwalk.
  
The first weekend they sold 18,460 cones at a nickel a piece - and the rest 
is history.   


   
(GOOGLE)
http://www.eastcoastcustard.com/history.htm
We discovered that, at Coney Island around 1920, vendors began using egg yolk 
in their vanilla ice cream to make it extra smooth and creamy. This popular 
concoction, called frozen custard, was enormously popular through the 
Depression and the War years because it was delicious and inexpensive. Problem was, 
real frozen custard was becoming increasingly hard to find since, by the 1960s, 
most custard makers, in an effort to increase profits, began lowering the cream 
(butterfat) content and increasing the amount of overrun (air) in their 
products  
      
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.frozencustardoutfitters.com/custard.html
Our frozen custard recipe, our own secret formula, is very simular to the 
Premium Ice Cream/Frozen Custard which was the rage on the  midway of Coney 
Island, New York in the mid 1920?s. It was served with customized ice-cream 
machines that have been in existence just as long (1921 to be exact) which we still 
offer you today. This special combination of recipe and machine, which we offer 
our distributors, allows you to make one of the finest frozen dessert 
products in the world.
     
(GOOGLE)
http://www.icsweets.com/
History of Custard

Perhaps the best-kept and tastiest secret is a variety of ice cream known as 
fresh frozen custard. Custard has become so popular that Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 
probably sells more fresh frozen custard than anywhere else and is known as 
the ?Custard Capital of the World.? Fresh frozen custard originated on Coney 
Island in New York about 1919. Custard was first sold as a carnival treat. 
Because it tasted so good, it quickly grew in popularity. In the ensuing years, 
custard was being sold on the boardwalk of Atlantic City along with other East 
Coast resort communities. By 1932, the Kirckauf family of Lafayette, Indiana, 
discovered custard and opened their first stand in that city. This store is 
still in operation and is considered by most to be the oldest continuously 
operating custard stand in the country. In 1933, the promoters of the Chicago World?
s Fair decided to introduce fresh frozen custard for the fair. The product was 
an instant success and quickly found its way to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and 
spread throughout the Midwest. The popularity continues today and is growing 
farther to the south and west and virtually across the country. i.c. sweets is 
continuing the tradition today by bringing this quality fresh frozen custard 
dessert to Coeur d?Alene, Idaho. To our knowledge, this is the first frozen 
custard store of its kind in the Northwest.    
    

(GOOGLE)
http://www.pegadoes.com/history.html
Frozen custard is a form of ice cream made from old-fashioned ice cream 
recipes with a touch of egg yolk. In addition to the egg yolk, frozen custard is 
made in special machines so as not to whip as much air in as ice cream, making 
for a smoother, richer taste sensation. 
In the beginning...
There have been legends that frozen custard was created by an ice cream 
vender who added eggs to ice cream as an emulsifier to prevent the ice cream from 
melting too quickly.  To his delight and our gratitude today, a new premium ice 
cream had been discovered.  This ice cream  with it's richer taste and 
smoother texture became known as  frozen custard. Kohr Bros., in Charlottesville, 
Va., claims that its founder, Archie C. Kohr, invented the first frozen custard 
machine in 1919 and took it to Coney Island, where it's said 18,460 cones were 
sold in the first weekend.Venders soon took this treat across the country to 
carnivals and circuses.  Shortly after frozen custard stands were found on the 
east coast along the beaches and boardwalks.  By the 1940s there were 
hundreds of stands across the east coast and mid-west.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Oct 17 12:58:03 2003
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:58:03 -0700
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002007bbb4d275e949@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.055803.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET> wrote:

>
> Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on
> the Latinteach
> list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.)
> "woperson" for
> "woman,"

I thought it was "woperit", "woperson" also being
sexist.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 17 12:58:54 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:58:54 EDT
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.085854.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated >  Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:10:01 -0700, John McChesney-Young <
> panis at PACBELL.NET> stateth:


> Muleociation.  As in, "Venyus was originally
> muleociated with vegetable gardens,"  or "Hera was
> particularly muleociated with the institution of
> marriage."   "Mercury's purse was symbolic of his
> muleociation with commerce."  Obviously the word
> association works here, but that persistently was not
> the word he chose.


Well, there's the play on words "ass-ociation" --> "mule-ociation"

             - Jim Landau


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Oct 17 13:22:23 2003
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:22:23 -0400
Subject: Muleociation
In-Reply-To: <p06002007bbb4d275e949@[192.168.0.4]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.092223.0400.>

On Thursday 16 October 2003 07:09 pm, you wrote:

> In embarrassment at my naivete I confess it was not. I can only
> observe that the original inquirer and her colleagues were also taken
> in, if that's the appropriate phrase for our common state of
> innocence.
>
> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the student
> is
>
> >using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> >substitute for the word "ass"
>
> Thanks to a few people who've responded here and on the Latinteach
> list I now understand. It's comparable to (e.g.) "woperson" for
> "woman," something I suspect has not seen any use other than jocular
> - although I wouldn't be *entirely* surprised to be informed
> otherwise.
>
> which still is enough to raise some folks'
>
> >hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this sort
> >of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum to
> >extremes.
>
> I don't think it was in pursuit of a more refined style, but whether
> an attempt to catch the teacher in a state of ignorance or a
> genuinely unselfconscious word in the student's vocabulary or out of
> some other motivation I can't guess. Even now that I understand it,
> I'm puzzled by its use in a serious high school assignment and I'd
> still be interested in reports of its non-colloquial use.


There's also a more (or less, depending on your perspective) innocuous
explanation.

Internet filtration software is notorious for being uselessly literal, so it
could well be an internet filter circumlocution. It's quite easy to imagine
some software product or another substituting '[expletive deleted]ociation'
for 'association' in its default setting.

--
bkd


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Oct 17 19:18:54 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:18:54 -0400
Subject: OED Monthly Access
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.151854.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I see the OED is now offering monthly access to North and South
American users for $29.95 a month. While the annual rate ($295) is
still cheaper if you have continuous need for it, the monthly pass
might be good for short-term use. Maybe a writing holiday?

http://www.oed.com/subscribe/individuals-amer.html

Note that I am an employee of Oxford University Press, although not
hired to shill.

Cheers,

Grant


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 18:13:29 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:13:29 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
In-Reply-To: <2A1D494F.42F09A8D.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.141329.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 10/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>    The ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is now at July 1939, and not a moment
> too soon for Halloween is perhaps the origin of "trick or treat."
>    It's a little long, but I'll type the whole thing.
>
>HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
> Calif.: Oct 30, 1938.                   p. A8 (1 page):
>_GETTING IN PRACTICE FOR NIGHT OF FUN_
>(Photo--ed.)
>(Photo caption--ed.)  Elio Martini, left, and Wendy Rough tie bicycle to
>post as prelude to Halloween.
>_HALLOWEEN PRANKS PLOTTED_
>_BY YOUNGSTERS OF SOUTHLAND_
>    "Trick or treat!" is the Halloween hijacking game hundreds of Southern
> California youngsters will play tomorrow night as they practice
> streamlined versions of traditional Allhallows Eve pranks.
>    The preparations are simple: a bar of soap, some old films and a
> couple of Times funny papers clipped into confetti.  From house to house
> the boys and girls will travel, punching doorbells with nerve-jangling peals.
>_TINY GOON SQUAD_
>    "Trick or treat!" is the terse command as the householder peeks warily
> around the door.  "If you don't give us something, we'll play a trick on
> you.  You wouldn't want your porch littered with paper, or your windows
> soaped, or a smelly roll of burning film left around, would you?"
>    So the diminutive Halloween goon squads are bought off with cookies,
> candy, tickless alarm clocks or the price of an ice cream cone.
>_SIGNBOARDS TARGET_
>    With election but a week away it will be a field night for the
> Halloween billboard artists.  The more subtle pranksters already have
> spotted all the wind socks in their vicinity and are stuffing shirts with
> rumpled papers, ready to be judiciously affixed to candidates'
> signboards.  Where no wind socks are available, a well blown-up paper bag
> will make an acceptable substitute.  Less imaginative of the costumed
> prowlers Monday night will be content to change the benign expressions of
> the pictured candidates with ferocious mustaches and beetle-browed frowns.
>_FEW GATES LEFT_
>    Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch
> on rooftops, loose kiddie cars and motor scooters can be hitched to
> doorknobs, trash baskets can be emptied on front lawns and flower pots
> can appear on chimneys.  Portable (Next column--ed.) signs that unwary
> filling station proprietors forget to take in always make good
> decorations for streetcars and city halls.
>    The automobile will be subjected to unusual hazards Halloween
> night.  If the windows escape a few "nerts" and "foos" scrawled in soap
> or paraffin, the owner is sure to find a shirt clothespinned to the radio
> aerial or a stack of tin cans tied on the axle.
>_DUMMIES PREPARED_
>    Of course, Halloween funsters are even now fixing lifelike dummies to
> be placed on busy thoroughfares just to give motorists a bad half-minute
> or to send police with sirens screaming to "investigate a dead body."
>    Pumpkins will never lose their appeal for the very young at Halloween
> time.  Although some of the jack-o'-lanterns now are lighted with
> flashlights and even wired for sound, most of the faces stick to the
> traditional toothy grins and triangles for eyes and noses.
>    It's a grumpy citizen indeed that won't be frightened into shrieks at
> the appearance of a little imp on Halloween night, attired in a spooky
> costume and carrying a lighted pumpkin and a rattling chain.
>
>
>("Nerts" and "foos"?...Greenwich Village has a big party.  For something
>really scary, dress up as a Chicago Cub--ed.)

I was also intrigued by "hijacking" and "goons"???


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 18:04:25 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:04:25 -0400
Subject: a-prefixing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.33.0310151431100.4871-100000@ux5.isu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.140425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sonja, it's still used by rural people in southeastern Ohio.  I expected it
to be used only by older people, and indeed a grad student of mine heard it
in interviews only from age 45+ informants; but she also got a 48% overall
positive response in a questionnaire given to 50 local high school students
(14% reported using it personally, and 34% knew others who used
it).  Another student got similar figures in a survey of age12-60+
informants in Portsmouth, Ohio, down on the Ohio River.  I can send you her
handout if you wish.

I have more results of grammar studies somewhere and will someday compile
all these for our region!  But the structure is definitely alive and well
in this fringe area of the Appalachian chain, so I would expect it to be
even more prevalent in the "core" of the mountains.  You might contact Kirk
Hazen and Clare Dannenberg to see what they've found.

At 02:33 PM 10/15/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm teaching a class on American Dialect this semester and I was wondering
>what the current thinking on a-prefixing in Appalachain English is? Is it
>no long used? Is it considering a dying form? Is there any evidence of
>younger people using the form? Is it found in any  other dialect areas?
>
>Thanks for any help you can give me on this. I have some articles in it
>but I haven't found anything recent.
>
>Sonja Launspach
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Sonja Launspach
>Assistant Professor Linguistics
>Dept.of English & Philosophy
>Idaho State University
>Pocatello, ID 83209
>208-282-2478
>fax:208-282-4472
>email: sllauns at isu.edu


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 20:42:22 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:42:22 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.164222.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops,

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Fri Oct 17 20:49:26 2003
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:49:26 -0500
Subject: Muleociation
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.154926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Arnold:
I nominate mulemuleinated as the Republican word of the year.
It's so.... Succinct.


-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold M. Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 6:10 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Muleociation


On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 03:35 PM, Yerkes, Susan wrote, replying to
john mcchesney-young's forwarding of a query about "muleociation" in a high
school student's writing:

> Sorry, but is this a joke?

there is the "heaveno" for "hello" business, so someone involved could have
meant this sort of seriously.  but it looks like a jocular coining to me; i
hear adolescent giggling.  of course, once coined, a word can spread in many
ways, and its origins can be lost.

> From a non-technical point of view, seems apparent to me that the
> student is using the word "mule" as a questionably punny
> substitute for the word "ass" which still is enough to raise some
> folks'
> hackles (believe me, some publications still get worked up about this
> sort
> of thing), so I gather he or she is simply carrying the no-ass dictum
> to
> extremes.

i think the person who thought this up should be mulemuleinated.

from the teacher:

> I am at a loss, because I can find no muleociation
> between this word and any Latin or Greek roots.
> Perhaps this just sprung full-grown from my student's
> head.

well, from *some* body part.

john:

> Searches for assorted forms of the word ("muleociate," "muleociated,"
> etc.) at the search engine Dogpile turn up just a handful of uses in
> three
> places: a discussion forum for players of the Xbox game system, and a
> couple of others for developers of the open source version of
> Netscape's browser,
> Mozilla.
>
> Here are two examples where it apparently means "association":
>
> http://forum.teamxbox.com/
> showthread.php?s=fe88131c6c8d084291e2bef1061dad71&
> threadid=201892&highlight=muleociation
>
> Also on Ubi-Soft's on site the Xbox logo is nowhere to be found in
> muleociation with Far Cry.
>
> [and]
>
> http://www.mozdev.org/mailarchives/reviewers/2002-December/000890.html
>
> \"The first thing you have to do to build a custom view is instantiate
> your tree and then muleociate a view object with it, commonly known as
> a view.
>
> (end quote)
>
> Teoma also reports a use at the Teambox.com domain in this phrase,
> "Proud member of the Correct Grammar muleociation," but it appears to
> be a signature file which is no longer in use.

if you *really* want to pursue the matter, you could ask the writers of
these passages where they got the word and what they think they were
conveying by using it.  of course, they might not be willing to give you any
muleistance.

arnold


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From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 17 20:53:09 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:53:09 -0400
Subject: Trick or Treat (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.165309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I accidentally sent an almost empty version of this message a moment ago.  Sorry about that.  Especially since this version of the message is empty enough. . . .

The story on trick or treating Barry posted recently from the Los Angeles Times of Oct 30, 1938 alludes to the standard trick of rural boys of removing gates from their hinges and carrying them off.  "Although there are few gates available for modern city boys to perch on rooftops. . . ."  Our country cousins, it seems, would also steal outhouses.  There is a very funny editorial cartoon by "Ding" Darling from FDR's first administration (I suppose his first) showing two rougish little boys labelled "Roosevelt" and (I think) "Hopkins" running off with an out-house labelled something or other, while a bewildered looking "John Q. Public" looked out its door.  The practice of "tricking" on Hallowe'en is old enough, and probably the practice of demanding treats, too.  The word has got to be older than so far traced.  In the mid/late 1940s, my mother dressed me up and took me about the neighbors to trick or treat, calling it that.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:43:43 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:43:43 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Pain in the Neck"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is another antedating posted by Ben Zimmer on alt.usage.english:

pain in the neck (OED 1924)

1911 _Wash. Post_ 8 Oct. E3  Aw, you pikers gimme a pain in the neck.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:46:44 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:46:44 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Soapbox"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194644.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ben Zimmer points out on alt.usage.english that OED has 1907 for the
figurative use of "soapbox" and 1918 for attributive usage, but that
ProQuest comes up with "soap-box orator" in _N.Y. Times_, 12 June 1906.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:41:48 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:41:48 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Third World"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.194148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED's first cite for the English phrase "Third World" is dated 1963.
The following ProQuest antedating has been posted by Ben Zimmer on
alt.usage.english:

1958 _Wash. Post_ 29 Jan. A18  The Third World. ... Following the war ...
many people began to look upon the world as divided into two parts -- the
Communist and the Western world.  So intense was our concentration on this
struggle that many of us failed to comprehend that a new third world had
been born. ...  This new world was born in Asia, in Africa, in the Near
East out of old colonial empires. ... Today, this third world challenges
our leadership, our energies, our own aspirations.  In this third world
arena, the great struggle for freedom and peace in our time is being
waged.

Zimmer also gives an antedating of "Second World" (OED 1974):

1966 _N.Y. Times_ 31 Aug. 42  Leaders and intellectuals in many countries
are also strongly attracted to the ideology of the Socialist or Communist
countries -- the so-called "Second World."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 17 23:57:06 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:57:06 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Sweet Sixteen"
In-Reply-To: <BF732CEC-00D6-11D8-8B0A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.195706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has c1840 for "sweet sixteen."  Ben Zimmer presents the following from
ProQuest in an alt.usage.english posting:

1829 _The Ariel_ 16 May  Has it ever been your lot, To be troubled by a
score Of rather fair and pretty girls, Of sweet sixteen or more.

1831 _The Boquet_ 3 Nov.  The daughter at about 'sweet sixteen,' becomes
acquainted with a wandering, melancholy hypocondriac.

Zimmer also points out an occurrence of "sweet sixteen" _The Intellectual
Regale_ 30 Dec., but here it refers to the year 1816.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 18 00:15:14 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:15:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Of Color"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310171952410.15392-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.201514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has 1796 as its earliest usage for "people of colour" and 1803 for
"man of colour."  Evan Kirshenbaum has posted the following earlier
ProQuest citations on alt.usage.english:

"Using ProQuest I can push "man of colour" back to 1793:

    On the 17th of June, as the armed mulattoes were going out to Fort
    Picolet, they were met by feveral failors, who were in liquor, and
    one of them joftled againft one of the men of colour ; he
    immediately drew his dagger and wounded him ; and the reft of the
    failors immediately ftoned them, and they flew.

(Okay, they're long s's, not f's.)  (Except for the ones that are.)
That's from _Weekly Museum_, July 13, 1793, page 3.  (There are also
four hits from 1792, but they are multi-page articles and it's harder
to find the match.)"

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Oct 18 02:07:49 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:07:49 -0400
Subject: Fw: Syntactic blends
In-Reply-To: <007901c38cf9$8bd89c40$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.220749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, John Fitzpatrick wrote:

#>>Would "den up" be a syntactic blend, from "den" + perhaps "build up"?
#
#"Up" seems to me to more of an intensifier, as in "revv up" and "wash
#up".  If you must find syntactic blending, my candidate would be "hole
#up", which is a synonym for "den up" but has a different meaning from
#simple "hole".

I *think* I've seen "den up" meaning just about what it seems to mean
here, i.e., 'make its home, establish a den'.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Sat Oct 18 02:16:08 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:16:08 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.221608.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Marty Moss-Coane, host of Radio Times, a local interview-call in show on WHYY-FM, Phila.:
  "Schwarzenegger is very liberal on a lot of HIGH BUTTON issues...high..high intensity...uh...important...uh...big issues."
Her reaction was midway between those of other blenders described here:  instantly aware that she had not hit the cliche that she wanted, but unable--at least on mike--to find either "hot button" or "high profile".
Se?n Fitzpatrick


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Oct 18 02:34:14 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:34:14 -0400
Subject: Syntactic blending:  bunker down
In-Reply-To: <003501c39194$1b8cb760$32defea9@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.OCT.2003.223414.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, Clai Rice wrote:

#At what point does a blend cease to be a blend and become its own phrase?
#
#Google returns about 2,360 hits for "bunker down"; LexisNexis provides 350
#hits for "bunker down" AND NOT "golf" (to eliminate uses like the following:
#

Forgive me if I'm saying something already said in this thread, but what
with moving and all I'm now in the midst of catching up and ripping
through some 900 messages in my inbox. Has anyone suggested a possible
partial source for "bunker down" in "hunker down"?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 18 04:55:33 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:55:33 -0400
Subject: "Hot dog" (1871)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.005533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From "Brooklyn Daily Eagle" 31:6 (9 Jan. 1871), p. 1, col. 9:

<<What's the difference between a chilly man and a hot dog? One wears a
great coat and the other pants.>>

(Compare in HDAS: [hot dog n. 1.] 1897 in _CoE_ (Nov. 1995) 18: "Brown's a
hot dog, isn't he?" "Yes, he has so many pants.")

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 18 06:02:51 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:02:51 -0400
Subject: Dog = frankfurter (1896, 1902)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.020251.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Brooklyn Daily Eagle":

----------

10 May 1896: p. 19, col. 4:

<<It Was Dog of Some Kind.

<<  "I say, waiter, I don't know what to eat today. Can you give me a pointer?"

<<  "Frankfurters for one!" shouted the waiter, as he started for the
kitchen.>>

----------

26 July 1902: p. 18, col. 2:

<<Muzzles for Frankfurters

<<  The frankfurter at Coney must be muzzled, the Health Department
officials declare, and an order has been issued to all venders of the
sausage, requiring them to put a cover of some sort over them, while
cooking, in the future. ....>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 15:54:28 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:54:28 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.115428.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Online tomorrow, October 19:


THE VOCABULA REVIEW

October 2003 -- Vol. 5, No. 10

-----------------------------------------------------------------

IN THIS ISSUE

Harmless Drudges -- Julian Burnside
Making Peace in the Language Wars -- Bryan A. Garner
Telling It Slant -- Marylaine Block
Read Free! -- Eric Scheske
None Is or None Are? -- Frank E. Keyes, Jr.
A Feast of Halloween Puns -- Richard Lederer
rresponse tto jjoan ttaber altieri -- Peter Corey
Sound Off: Refuting Fiske and Halpern -- Michael Glazer, David Wilton, Bob
McHenry
Two Poems -- Frank Anthony
The Elder Statesman: My Life as an Owl, Part Uno -- Clark Elder Morrow
The Critical Reader: Replies to Michael Glazer, David Wilton, and Bob McHenry
-- Mark Halpern
The Last Word: The Gloomiest Trade -- Chris Orlet
Grumbling About Grammar
Elegant English
On Dimwitticisms
Clues to Concise Writing
Scarcely Used Words
Oddments and Miscellanea
On the Bookshelf
Letters to the Editor

-----------------------------------------------------------------

<A HREF="www.vocabula.com">www.vocabula.com</A>




Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 18 18:39:06 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:39:06 -0500
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.133906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:36 AM -0400 10/18/03, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote [re: Vocabula Review]:
>
>This link leads directly to a for-pay website. Do we allow this on ADS-L?
>
>In a message dated 9/21/03 11:33:30 AM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes:
[snip]

*****

    Every so often readers plug something in which they have a financial stake.
As long as the plug has relevant informative value and doesn't go
beyond the pale in some way, I'd suggest allowing the Vocabula
announcements.

Gerald Cohen


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 17:45:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:45:19 EDT
Subject: "Hot dog" (1871)  (actually, 1870)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.134519.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Just a minute as I try to recover from 11 hours of parking tickets.  I
can't even see.
   I've known about that citation for several years, but I hadn't posted it.
It's on Making of America.


Title: Varieties
Publication Info.: Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. /
Volume 4, Issue 79, Oct 1, 1870, pp.414-415
Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
<A HREF="http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;sid=3dd0f40dd13f99fcb63dda1bd9c95fdb;q1=hot%20dog%2A;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.079;view=image;seq=0447">Page 415</A>  - 1 term matching "hot dog*"
Col. 3:
   What's the difference between a chilly man and a hot dog?--One wears a
great-coat and the other pants.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 18 15:36:05 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:36:05 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.113605.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This link leads directly to a for-pay website. Do we allow this on ADS-L? 

In a message dated 9/21/03 11:33:30 AM, Vocabula at AOL.COM writes:


> Erin McKean and Robert Hartwell Fiske on Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> Dictionary? by Mark Halpern
> 
> <A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VRSept03Halpern.asp</A>
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Hartwell Fiske
> Editor and Publisher
> The Vocabula Review
> www.vocabula.com
> ______________________
> 
> The Vocabula Review
> A measly $8.95 a year
> www.vocabula.com
> ______________________
> 
> The Vocabula Review
> 10 Grant Place
> Lexington, MA 02420
> United States
> Tel: (781) 861-1515
> 
> 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 00:27:28 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:27:28 -0400
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.202728.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."

THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
FOUR WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
FOUR WAYS TILL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
FOUR WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
FIVE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
FIVE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--1 Google hit
SIX WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--317 Google hits
SIX WAYS TILL SUNDAY--191 Google hits
SIX WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--18 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--25 Google hits
SEVEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--37 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS TILL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
EIGHT WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
NINE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
NINE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--17 Google hits
NINE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
TEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
TEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--16 Google hits
TEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits


(PROQUEST)
American Banker (pre-1997 Fulltext). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1987. Vol. 152, Iss. 99;  pg. 17
(...)
    He added, "We tested it with computer simulations five ways till Sunday to make sure it was for real."


(FACTIVA)
 House speaker coordinates the paper chase by color Series:   PEOPLE & POLITICS
 TIM NICKENS; LUCY MORGAN; BILL MOSS; DAVID DAHL
718 words
9 April 1989
 St. Petersburg Times
 CITY
 2B
(...)
 ``You can ask it six ways 'til Sunday and I'm not going to give you the answer that you're looking for,`` said Nelson. ``I'm going to give the answer that I want to give. Attitude. Leadership. Innovative solutions. Restraint in spending, so that you can put your resources where they need to be in order to fulfill your potential.``


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Oct 19 00:51:13 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:51:13 -0400
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
In-Reply-To: <632B0246.17AA45B8.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.205113.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Oct 18, 2003 at 08:27:28PM -0400, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."
>
> THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
> THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits

[etc.]

We have an example from 1933, if you want to go as high as "FORTY"
and allow for "FROM" instead of the "till" variants.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Sun Oct 19 01:00:53 2003
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:00:53 -0700
Subject: Ways till Sunday (1987)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.180053.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All:

Has anybody ever seen "all ways till Sunday"?
Anne G

>    I just saw someone write "ten ways 'til Sunday."
>
> THREE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--19 Google hits
> THREE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> THREE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS TILL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
> FOUR WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--6 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> FIVE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--1 Google hit
> SIX WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--317 Google hits
> SIX WAYS TILL SUNDAY--191 Google hits
> SIX WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--18 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--25 Google hits
> SEVEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--37 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS TILL SUNDAY--12 Google hits
> EIGHT WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--2 Google hits
> NINE WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--9 Google hits
> NINE WAYS TILL SUNDAY--17 Google hits
> NINE WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--0 Google hits
> TEN WAYS 'TIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
> TEN WAYS TILL SUNDAY--16 Google hits
> TEN WAYS UNTIL SUNDAY--8 Google hits
>
>
> (PROQUEST)
> American Banker (pre-1997 Fulltext). New York, N.Y.: May 21, 1987. Vol.
152, Iss. 99;  pg. 17
> (...)
>     He added, "We tested it with computer simulations five ways till
Sunday to make sure it was for real."
>
>
> (FACTIVA)
>  House speaker coordinates the paper chase by color Series:   PEOPLE &
POLITICS
>  TIM NICKENS; LUCY MORGAN; BILL MOSS; DAVID DAHL
> 718 words
> 9 April 1989
>  St. Petersburg Times
>  CITY
>  2B
> (...)
>  ``You can ask it six ways 'til Sunday and I'm not going to give you the
answer that you're looking for,`` said Nelson. ``I'm going to give the
answer that I want to give. Attitude. Leadership. Innovative solutions.
Restraint in spending, so that you can put your resources where they need to
be in order to fulfill your potential.``
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:11:53 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:11:53 -0400
Subject: You can't win 'em all (1886, 1919, 1922)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.211153.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Unless you're the cursed Yankees.  I had posted 1926.



(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
      NATIONALS SURPRISE TRIBE WITH NINTH-INNING VICTORY
       By J.V. FITZ GERALD..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 16, 1919.                   p. 10 (1 page)
   Cleveland.  Aug. 15.--Cleveland can't win 'em all in the ninth.
(J. V. Fitz Gerald is the brother of John J. Fitz Gerald, of "Big Apple" fame--ed.)

      Nats Oppose Mackmen Today
       By FRANK H. YOUNG..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 23, 1926.                   p. 13 (1 page):
   "WELL, we can't win 'em all," said Manager Bucky Haris yesterday after his team had lost its twelfth game in the last seventeen starts, thus showing that our boy leader still has a keen sense of humor.


(PROQUEST--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      PEN POINTS
       The Staff.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 1, 1922.                   p. II4 (1 page):
   Speaking of the local football games, we can't win 'em all.

      PEN POINTS
       The Staff.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 5, 1923.                   p. II4 (1 page) :
   However, the season of the Pacific Coast League is young.  We can't win 'em all.


(PROQUEST--NEW YORK TIMES)
      DETROIT BADLY HANDLED
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1886.                   p. 2 (1 page):
   CHICAGO, July 8.--The Detroit Baseball Club may win two games out of its three with Chicago, but it can't win them all, for Chicago took one to-day.

      TIGERS BEAT YANKS AS 42,712 LOOK ON
       Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 4, 1924.                   p. 8 (1 page):
   DETROIT, Aug. 3.--The Yankees can't win them all, but they certainly can draw more people to a fenced-in area than any other traveling attraction listed under the head of amusement.

      YANKEES STOPPED BY ATHLETICS, 8-3
       By JAMES R. HARRISON.Special to The New York Times..       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 4, 1926.                   p. 33 (1 page):
   PHILADELPHIA, Pa., May 3.--You can't win them all, and the Yankees are no exception to this old time rule.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:34:25 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:34:25 -0400
Subject: Seven ways from Sunday (1920)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.213425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More ways than one.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
      Pete's Close Shave
       By Arthur L. Dahl.       Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine (1868-1935).       San Francisco: Nov 1920.       Vol. LXXVI, Iss. No 5.;             p. 70 (3 pages):
Pg. 71:  "Now, you spavin-legged, chicken-livered cur, you listen to me.  You think you're a butcher, do you, and everybody's your meat, do you?  You're not; you're a contemptible, cowardly barber, that's what you are, and you're going to give me the cleanest shave I ever had, or I'll lick you seven ways from Sunday.  Here's the razor.  It's too sharp to pull, so get busy," and the cook seated himself fearlessly on the chair he had provided.


(PROQUEST--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      CLASHES MARK RAIL HEARINGS.
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1922.                   p. I7 (1 page):
   "As for propaganda, you can beat the railways seven ways from Sunday on spreading propaganda."

      FIRPO DIRECTED BY CABLEGRAM
       HARRY NEWMAN.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 29, 1923.                   p. III1 (1 page) :
   Horatio Lavalle, imported from the Argentine to succeed Jimmy Deforest as handler-in-chief of the young giant who hopes to knock Jack Dempsey seven ways from Sunday at the  Polo Grounds on September 14, steps out every day when Firpo starts his workout and keeps a detailed record on everything Luis does.

      Along El Camino Real With Ed-Ainsworth
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 28, 1936.                   p. 10 (1 page):
   It has the other ones skinned seven ways from Sunday.


(PROQUEST--CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR)
      Wilson Pins Resignation On By-Passing by Truman
              Christian Science Monitor  (1908-Current file).       Boston, Mass.: Apr 28, 1952.                   p. 16 (1 page):
   Charles  E. WIlson says he resigned as national defense mobilization director in March because he was by-passed "nine ways from Sunday" in wage-price negotiations and embarrassed by a sudden switch of presidential decisions in the steel dispute.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 19 01:41:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:41:36 -0400
Subject: Nine ways from Sunday (1832)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.OCT.2003.214136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(LITERATURE ONLINE--PROSE)
1.  Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]
 The Book of Saint Nicholas. Translated from the Original Dutch of Dominie Nicholas Aegidius Oudenarde [pseud] (1836) 414Kb
 The Book of Saint Nicholas. Translated from the Original Dutch of Dominie Nicholas Aegidius Oudenarde [pseud] 411Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 376Kb
 COBUS YERKS. 27Kb
...said, looked at least nine ways from Sunday. His teeth were...

2.  Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]
 Westward Ho! , Volume 2 (1832) 377Kb
 Westward Ho! , Volume 2 374Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 338Kb
 CHAPTER XIII. 18Kb
...a compass that pointed nine ways from Sunday. Page 144. Don't...


(LITERATURE ONLINE--DRAMA)
Paulding, James Kirke, 1778-1860 [Author Record]  / Paulding, William I. (William Irving), 1825-1890 [Author Record]
 Antipathies; Or, The Enthusiasts By The Ears (1847) 248Kb
  ANTIPATHIES;  OR,  THE ENTHUSIASTS BY THE EARS. 246Kb
Found 1 hit:
Main text 245Kb
 ACT V. 56Kb
 SCENE IV. 27Kb
...and making them look nine ways from Sunday ---debauching morals---kicking up...


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Oct 19 15:44:11 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:44:11 -0500
Subject: "Big Apple" Origin--Gotham Center FAQ item is erroneous
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.104411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Members of the American Dialect Society (with cc. to the Gotham Center):

   And the beat goes on. The latest blunder in the treatment of origin
of  "The Big Apple" comes from the Gotham Center. If the compiler of
the  FAQ item there would like to contact me, I'll be happy to answer
any questions in this regard.

    Meanwhile, the "whore etymology" is a hoax; its credibility is
zero. The only defensible etymology is the one which sees turf writer
John J. Fitz Gerald as the popularizer of the sobriquet, with due
credit given by him to two "dusky" (i.e., African-American)
stable-hands in New Orleans. There is, as far as I know, no scholarly
debate on the subject. The only disagreement comes from people who
are *not* scholars, i.e., they have not researched the issue, they
show no signs of having seen Barry Popik's convincing evidence and
have certainly not refuted it.

     Bibliographic references on the subject are:

1) Cohen, Gerald. _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big
Apple"_ ( = Forum Anglicum, vol. 19), Frankfurter am Main: Peter
Lang, 1991. -- (does not yet contain Barry Popik's evidence; this
comes in the subsequent articles)

2) Cohen, Gerald 1993a.  'Update #1 on "The Big Apple"' (with
considerable information from Barry Popik). in: _Studies in Slang_
(ed.: Gerald Cohen), part III.  Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang.
pp.132-151.
3) Cohen, Gerald 1993b. 'The Origin of NYC's Nickname "The Big
Apple"'.  in _Names_ (Journal of the American Name Society) vol. 41,
pp.23-28.  This article is a slight revision of my 1992 Presidential
address to the American Name Society.
4) Cohen, Gerald 1993c. ' Update #2 on "The Big Apple"'.  in:
_Studies in Slang_ (ed.: Gerald Cohen), part IV.  (The information is
primarily from Barry Popik.)   Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang. pp.141-160.

      See _Morning Telegraph_, Dec. 1, 1926, p.11, rightmost column,
"In the Paddock with John J. Fitz Gerald" (spotted by Barry Popik):
"So many people have asked the writer about the derivation of his
phrase, 'the big apple,' that he is forced to make another
explanation."
     Note: "HIS phrase."

----The Gotham Center treatment is:
>http://gothamcenter.org/faq.shtml
>
>Why is New York called  the "Big Apple"?
>
>There is essentially no agreement on an answer to this question.
>What one scholar will propose as authoritative, another will dismiss
>entirely. Some trace the name to horse racing, others to NYC's past
>prostitutes... Many explanations seem plausible and none seems
>certain.
>

Gerald Cohen
Professor of German and Russian
Editor, Comments on Etymology
University of Missouri-Rolla
Rolla, MO 65409


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 19 21:17:27 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:17:27 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Torpedo (sandwich) 1950
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.171727.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since I found "hero" sandwich I think I'm on a roll.

So, from the Newport(RI) Daily News, March 10, 1950:

<A classified ad>

          EXCLUSIVE! Torpedo Sandwich, a meal in itself.  "It's  the Talk of
the Town."  Cafe 200. Pizzaphone 232.

SC

Actually, I'm not sure if I'm antedating anything.  No one seems to care to
list this sandwich.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 00:01:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:01:00 -0400
Subject: Torpedo Sandwich; Riiight; Socialite
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.200100.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I wrote to the City Council Speaker to repeal "Big Apple Corner."  The disgrace must be complete.
   Yesterday, I walked out of the NYU Bobst Library and saw the police vehicles.  Someone jumped from an apartment window.  A third death.  I'm a little depressed right now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TORPDO

   I told Sam that this was a nice find.  I've traced "submarine" to Delaware, and Ancestry has NO Delaware newspapers.  I've been waiting for the Delaware newspapers and the BROOKLYN EAGLE, but Sam's sandwich research is still welcome.


      Mrs. Russell Cruikshank Dies; Civic Leader in Brooklyn, 75
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Feb 19, 1964.                   p. 36 (1 page):
(...)   Although she was active in many philanthropic and civic organizations in Brooklyn and gave her energies to historical and patriotic societies, Mrs. Cruikshank probably considered the time she devoted to the Navy Street Canteen during World War II as the most rewarding period.
   It was during this service that she learned about culinary tastes, living habits and social mores of a variety of servicemen.  She was one of three women who organized the canteen before Pearl Harbor in an abandoned schoolhouse at Navy and Concord Streets, near the New York Naval Shipyard.
      _Lesson From Sailors_
   Mrs. Cruikshank once recalled her shock at learning about new foods.  "I'd like a torpedo sandwich, please," a sailor asked during the early days of the canteen.
   She was stumped and admitted it.  but she made it her business to find out what it was.  Thereafter, no request for a torpedo sandwich stymied her.  She knew that it consisted of a long French bread slit lengthwise and crammed with all the things that a serviceman's peculiar tastes sought. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RIGHT

   Someone used "riight," so I'll get right to it.  The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG doesn't record it.

RIIGHT--5,930 Google hits
RIIIGHT--18,200 Google hits
RIIIIGHT--19,900 Google hits
RIIIIIGHT--12,000 Google hits
RIIIIIIGHT--6,390 Google hits
RIIIIIIIGHT--3,860 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIGHT--2,310 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIIGHT--1,680 Google hits
RIIIIIIIIIIGHT--1,220 Google hits

     There are tons of bad hits.  There's this, which doesn't seem right.

      ABOUT LONG ISLAND
       Francis X. Clines.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Aug 19, 1979.                   p. LI2 (1 page):
   Often they seem to react to all sorts of things only by smiling and shouting "All riiight!" and applauding in that rock-concert way with their hands above their heads.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOCIALITE

   My wife, Paris Hilton, has asked me to do "socialite."  OED has 1928, and I can't seem to beat it.  I see in the ADS-L archives that the coinage was credited to TIME magazine.  Unfortunately, that's not digitized.
   (OT:  Her sister, Hanoi Hilton, is a pain.)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 20 00:33:58 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:33:58 -0400
Subject: Torpedo Sandwich; Riiight; Socialite
In-Reply-To: <214CADF4.74A6B2CE.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.203358.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    My wife, Paris Hilton, has asked me to do "socialite."  OED has 1928,
> and I can't seem to beat it.  I see in the ADS-L archives that the
> coinage was credited to TIME magazine.  Unfortunately, that's not
> digitized.

This is a quintessential Time-ism.  The 1928 citation in OED was
contributed by me; at the time I looked carefully in Time for the earliest
occurrence there of the word.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 01:48:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:48:44 -0400
Subject: Craisins (1987); Stupidmarket
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.214844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     A browse through rec.food.cooking produced these.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRAISINS

   There are over 5,000 Google "craisins" hits.  It seems generic, but there's a trademark here.

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 CRAISINS
 Goods and Services
(CANCELLED) IC  029.  US 046.  G & S: SUGAR INFUSED DRIED CRANBERRIES.  FIRST USE: 19870615.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19870615
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73706282
 Filing Date
January 19, 1988
 Published for Opposition
 July 26, 1988
 Registration Number
1509407
 Registration Date
October 18, 1988
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) OCEAN SPRAY CRANBERRIES, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 225 WATER STREET PLYMOUTH MASSACHUSETTS 02360
 Attorney of Record
NEIL F. BRYSON
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD
 Cancellation Date
April 24, 1995

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STUPIDMARKET

   Since about 2000, one poster and then others to rec.food.cooking have been using "stupidmarket."  It sounds stupid to me.
   "Stupormarket" is much less frequent.
   I searched with the word "cooking" to avoid the Wall Streeters.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Miche (micheinnz at yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: What Do You Call Your Food Store?
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
Date: 2002-03-16 11:23:51 PST
In article <b7579us3kdv03natoqv0i2088c7a3eucag at 4ax.com>, Damsel in dis
Dress <damselicious at bigfoot.com.INVALID> wrote:

> Just wondering what people call the store where they buy their groceries.
> Until I started hanging out in RFC, I'd only heard the word, "market," to
> describe grocery stores on TV or in movies.  Same with supermarket.  I'm
> wondering if this is regional.
>
> I live in Minnesota, and call it the grocery store, or just The Store.
> What do you call it (and where do you live)?

New Zealand.  Supermarket, supermarchet, stupidmarket, stupormarket.
Heard and use 'em all.

Miche


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Kool-Aid Recipe
 ... And, the equipment is still ok to use for cooking afterwards ... said, We have to stop
 at (listed 3 stupid markets), WHY sa Henry who hates stupid market more than ...
rec.crafts.textiles.yarn - Sep 9, 1995 by WHEATCARR at delphi.com - View Thread (1 article)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Jello Pudding Chillers Recipe
 ... I saw the "Jello pudding" recipe - at the prices my local stupidmarket charges for ... Here's
 hoping we never forget that cooking can be done from real ingredients ...
misc.consumers.frugal-living - Aug 1, 1996 by Who? What? Huh? - View Thread (6 articles)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 02:03:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:03:02 -0400
Subject: Adirondack Steak (1885)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.220302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   DARE has 1954.  I forgot to correct DARE on this one.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
      Article 5 -- No Title
              Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930).       New York: Aug 20, 1885.       Vol. VOL. XXV., Iss. No. 4.;             p. 66 (1 page):
   A St. Regis Lake correspondent of the Troy _Budget_ writes from the Prospect House:  "At breakfast you can have brook trout, also venison, but at this season of the year they call it Adirondack steak or mountain goat. (...)"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 02:28:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:28:22 -0400
Subject: Irish Turkey (1904); Red Mike and Violets (1925)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.222822.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   DARE has 1926 for "Irish turkey."  The HDAS volume H-O is missing here at NYU, and I don't know what it has for "red mike and violets."


      CHUCK STRIKES A NEW GRAFT
              The National Police Gazette (1845-1906).       New York: Jul 23, 1904.       Vol. VOLUME LXXXV, Iss. No. 1406.;             p. 3 (1 page):
   I'd been better off if I'd let it go at dat an' stuck ter de Irish turkey--ah, corned beef, ain't yer on?--wot Her Nobs hands out reg'lar.

 Matter of Food.
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Mar 24, 1907.                   p. SM2 (1 page):
   "If corned beef is Irish turkey, what is macaroni?"
   "Ginney-hen."

      Corned Beef Favorite Dinner in New York
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 15, 1925.                   p. 1 (1 page):
   New York, June 14 (by A. P.).--Corned beef and cabbage is the favorite dinner dish of most New Yorkers, if the poll just completed by the United Restaurant Owners association gave an accurate picture of the metropolitan appetite.
   Of the 180,000 votes cast, "Red Mike and Violets," as the succulent dish is known in less ornate caravansaries, led with more than 23,000.  Second on the list of preferences was "vegetable dinner," with 18,549, while third place went to veal cutlet and fourth to Lond Island duckling.

      Letters to the Editor
       NORMAN C. PAULSON, Washington..       The Washington Post, Times Herald  (1959-1973).       Washington, D.C.: Apr 2, 1967.                   p. C6 (1 page):
   Alas and alack for all the hymns to "red mike and violets" and "Irish turkey," corned beef and cabbage is not now and never was an Irish dish.  Its origins are as American as apple pie and as Yankee as the clambake.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:18:16 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:18:16 -0400
Subject: Chicago Chicken (1931, 1933, 1934)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.231816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The RHHDAS has 1942 for "Chicago chicken."  The CDS has "1940s."
   OT:  Don't choke the Chicago chicken.



      I Helping the Homemaker 11
       By LOUISE BENNETT WEAVER,.       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1931.                   p. 9 (1 page)
Chicago Chicken for Dinner. (...)
Chicago Chicken, serving 6.
(The recipe is here, but it's illegible on this computer--ed.)

Today's Menu
       Marian Manners.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 23, 1933.                   p. A5 (1 page):
   CHICAGO CHICKEN LEGS
   One pound pork steak, one pound veal steak, one-half cup flour, four tablespoonfuls fat, three tablespoonfuls chopped onions, three tablespoonfuls chopped green peppers, three tablespoonfuls chopped celery, one teaspoonful salt, one-quarter teaspoonful paprika, two-thirds cupful water.
   Have butcher cut steaks into one-inch pieces.  Alternate pork and veal pieces on wooden or metal skewers, seven or eight pieces on each skewer.  Roll "chicken" in flour.  Heat fat, add and brown meat mixture.  Add rest of ingredients.  Cover and bake one hour in moderate oven.  Baste frequently, turn to allow the meat even cooking.  Gravy may be made after meat has been removed from frying pan.

      "Chicago Chicken" Features Dinner for Five Persons
       MARIAN MANNERS.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 8, 1934.                   p. A6 (1 page):
   "CHICAGO CHICKEN"
1 pound Cudahy veal steak
1 pound pork steak
1/3 cup flour
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon paprika
2 tablespoons chopped onions
2 tablespoons chopped celery
5 skewers
2/3 cup water
   Have steak cut half an inch thick and then into one-inch squares.  Alternate squares of pork and veal on skewers.  Sprinkle with flour, salt and paprika.  Arrange in buttered baking dish.  Add rest of ingredients, cover and bake fifty minutes in moderate oven.  Turn "chicken" frequently to allow even browning.  Remove lid and brown five minutes.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:30:14 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:30:14 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.233014.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a cot," meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE SQUARES)."
   Not to be confused with three hot men/women and a cot.  That just wouldn't work on a cot.


DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
       By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969.                   p. 51 (1 page):
   For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his room and board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 03:59:25 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:59:25 -0400
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <SUN.19.OCT.2003.235925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
   Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next "Bloopies"--but probably not.


      TIGERS SCORE FOUR IN SEVENTH TO BEAT SENATORS IN OPENER, 4-1
       ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 2, 1925.                   p. B1 (2 pages):
Pg. 2:  _"BEEFING" PARTY_
   The Senators bunched around Ump Schmidt for a little "beefing" party, but nothing in the way of punches took place.  In fact, it was none other than Mr. Eckert, himself, who provided the next punch, a one-base "blooper" rap over the drawn-in Solon infield that brought both O'Shea and Whitney over the rubber and clinched the tilt.

      LAZERRE'S FORTY-THIRD HOMER TIES COAST MARK
       ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1925.                   p. 9 (2 pages):
Pg. 1:  Piercy hurled a magnificent game holding the Tigers to one hit, a blooper single by Jackie Warner in the sixth frame, for eight frames.

      WARFARE ON BLOOPERS IS NOW WAGED
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 14, 1926.                   p. B9 (1 page):
   Warfare against bloopers is declared!  With the terrific demonstration of blooping fresh in the minds of all listeners who attempted to receive foreign stations during the International Radio Week tests just concluded, the campaign announced by the Radio Digest should meet with instant success.
(...)  ...to reduce radiation or blooping to a minimum.

(All other cites until 1939 appear to be from sports.  I'll keep checking--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Oct 20 04:32:36 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 00:32:36 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
In-Reply-To: <27FA9C95.2B85F35B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.003236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my own recollection (not necessarily representative) the usual version
in the 1960's was "three hots and a flop" = "three hot meals and a place to
sleep". I think this slogan may have been associated with some kind of
conservation make-work during the Depression, but when I heard it it
referred either to a stint in the Armed Forces or to some minimal
employment providing the bare necessities. To me it seems that the version
with "cot" was a later "improved" version (maybe "flop" = "sleeping place"
had become obsolescent?).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 06:50:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:50:40 EDT
Subject: Baltimore's "lemon sticks"
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.025040.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I gotta catch a bus to Washington, DC.
   Does anyone have a decent early citation or a detailed explanation for
Baltimore's "lemon sticks"?
   This is a genuine regional American food.


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Oct 20 11:12:00 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:12:00 +0100
Subject: Chicago Chicken (1931, 1933, 1934)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.121200.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW the refs to 'Chicago chicken' in HDAS and CDS are not to the
recipe/dish of the same name as cited by Barry, although of course since
pork is one of the ingredients that there may be some link. The term in
slang is a 'satirical' euph. for salt pork, based on the city's meat-packing
industry; other porcine 'chickens' include 'Cincinnati chicken' (another
meat-packing city, known as 'Porkopolis' before Chicago took over),
'Arkansas chicken' and 'Georgia chicken', although the 'joke' in these
latter duo presumably refers to the consumption of pork rather than to its
processing.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 15:14:02 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:14:02 -0400
Subject: Arnie's Army (8 April 1962)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.111402.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is it?  A small mention almost buried in the AUGUSTA CHRONICLE?


   8 April 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE (GA), pg. 1-C, col. 5:
_Arnie to seek record today,_
_but tournament comes first_
By JERRY SANDERS
Chronicle-Herald Writer
(...)(Col. 7--ed.)
   With Palmer maintaining "go" condition, "Arnie's Army" swelled to record proportions as more than 40,000 fans swarmed over the sprawling Augusta National course.  He said, however, the crowds did not bother him.  "All I could see was people," said Palmer, grinning like a recruiting officer.

   6 April 1962, AUGUSTA CHRONICLE, pg. 10-A, col. 2:
_"Day late, dollar short"--Arnie_
   Arnold Palmer, a smile creasing his face, looked up and answered:
   "Yeh, that was a little better at 18 today than it was the last time, but it was day late and a dollar short.  Isn't that the saying?"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 15:40:03 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:40:03 -0400
Subject: Orange Donuts (1937), Dunking Donuts (1938)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.114003.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DUNKING DONUTS

   So movie star Mae Murray invented dunking donuts, eh?  Where is her name in this Los Angeles newspaper story?


   29 October 1938, LOS ANGELES EVENING HERALD AND EXPRESS, pg. A8, col. 6:
_Hollywoodites Get in_
_Dunking Argument_
   The great doughnut dunking controversy has now winged itself all the way across the continent, and Hollywood is pretty badly split on the subject.
   It all began in Boston, of all places, when Mrs. Gertrude Binney Kay, head of the Emerson College drama department, told a class in social usages that it was all right to dunk at an informal house party or afternoon theater snack, but even then:
   "It is never correct unless you hold the doughnut between the thumb and third finger of the right hand.  All other forms are crude."
   Emily Post, famous social arbiter, asserted that it was inconsequential how the doughnut was held, but added: "Do not dip it too far or spread it too wide."
   Irene Dunne, whose doughtnuts won a country fair prize when she was a girl in Indiana, does not regard the act of dunking as important in itself.
   "A good doughnut's flavor is impaired by saturation in coffee," she said.  "I don't think it really matters what is done to a bad one."
   Dorothy Lamour said she saw no reason why persons shouldn't dunk as long as they didn't splash.
   "In my opinion," she said, "excitable persons should never dunk.  For those who can manipulate a doughnut gracefully with chopsticks, I think the custom is unobjectionable."
   Stuart Erwin, queried in New York where he is making a picture, wired:
   "Constitution throws guarantees (Col. 7--ed.) around those who want to dunk stop This is still a free country."

---------------------------------------------------------------
ORANGE DONUTS

   Orange donuts are often served at Halloween.
   It might also be a regional dish.  Round Rock Donuts of Round Rock, Texas, claims to be making them since 1926:

http://www.roundrockdonuts.com/

   For what it's worth, here's a recipe.

   28 October 1938, LOS ANGELES EVENING HERALD AND EXPRESS, pg. B-10, col. 2:
_Here Is Recipe for_
_Orange Doughnuts_
   From the home economics department maintained by the manufacturers of the new, pure, triple-creamed all-vegetable shortening, comes this brand new recipe for orange flavored doughnuts.  Just in time for Halloween!  They are made with fresh California orange juice.  They are crisp and tender and not a bit greasy.
      _ORANGE DOUGHNUTS_
   To four cups of sifted all-purpose flour, add one and one-fourth teaspoonfuls of salt, three-fourths spoonfuls of baking soda and one-half teaspoonful of cream of tartar and sift again.
   Cream two tablespoonfuls of triple-creamed, all-vegetable shortening with three and one-half teaspoonfuls of grated orange rind and one cup of sugar until well blended.  Add four egg yolks that have been well beaten or two whole eggs and one yolk, if preferred.  Mix well.
   Squeeze juice from two oranges (Col. 3--ed.) into measuring cup, then add enough water to make three-fourths of a cup.  Add this to the creamed mixture gradually; blend well.  Add sifted dry ingredients; mix until smooth.  This makes a very soft dough, but it can be handled as follows:
   With as little handling as possible roll the dough on a floured pastry board or canvas to three-eighths inch thickness.  Let dough stand 20 minutes.  Cut with well-floured 2 1/2-inch doughnut cutter.  Cut all doughnuts before starting to fry.
   Fry in deep, hot all-vegetable shortening that is hot enough to turn a cube of bread golden brown in 60 seconds (375 degrees F.) until brown, turning when first crack appears.  Drain on absorbent paper.
   Rub two teaspoonfuls of grated orange rind into one-half cup of granulated sugar with finger tips.  Dust doughnuts with this orange sugar.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Oct 20 17:13:03 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:13:03 -0400
Subject: I no verbs
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.131303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a sig file on another email list:

First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing
weirds language.
Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no
verbs.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 18:41:23 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:41:23 EDT
Subject: "jumping the shark"
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.144123.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from Time magazine, available on-line at URL <A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031027-524470,00.html">
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101031027-524470,00.html</A>
the story is dated "Monday, Oct 27, 2003", apparently the official date of 
the issue in which it will appear.

<begin quote>
When the Shark Bites
by Nadia Mustafa

Ratings for the broadcast networks have taken another tumble this fall ? down 
an overall 3% from last season. And it's not just new shows that are having 
trouble; a surprising number of old favorites have slipped badly. Frasier has 
dropped 21%; Will & Grace is down 16%; and even CBS's hot CSI fell 11%. Nor can 
it all be blamed on the unusually high ratings for the baseball play-offs. In 
times like these, TV fans are reminded of the famous Happy Days episode in 
which Fonzie jumped over a shark while water skiing in the Pacific Ocean. At 
that instant, even the biggest Happy Days fan knew the show would never be the 
same. Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a series 
hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.
<end quote>
    
    


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 20 18:48:28 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:48:28 -0700
Subject: "jumping the shark"
In-Reply-To: <114.2a4a46d4.2cc58653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.114828.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:41 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> from Time magazine...
>
> ... Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a
> series
> hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.

a recent book is devoted entirely to a catalogue of television shows
and the moments when they jumped the shark.

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 20 18:54:04 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:54:04 -0400
Subject: "jumping the shark"
In-Reply-To: <FE5C1A3F-032D-11D8-9C0E-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.145404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Monday, October 20, 2003, at 11:41 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
>
>>from Time magazine...
>>
>>... Now "jumping the shark" is the term used for that moment when a
>>series
>>hops the track and starts its inevitable downhill slide.
>
>a recent book is devoted entirely to a catalogue of television shows
>and the moments when they jumped the shark.
>
>arnold

There's also a web site, www.jumptheshark.com, that's been around for years.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 19:00:24 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:00:24 -0400
Subject: That Windy City (9 May 1876); Chicago Tribune
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.150024.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress.

---------------------------------------------------------------
CHICAGO TRIBUNE

   I e-mailed ProQuest's Chris Cowan again, sending him "trick or treat."  If the 1890s are readable, could he give me a Chicago "sundae"?
   Nope.
   The _entire_ CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization has been delayed until next year.

  Subj:    RE: "Trick or Treat" from Los Angeles Times (1938)
  Date:    10/20/2003 10:49:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "Cowan, Christopher" <christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com>
  To:    "'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)


Hi, Barry,  Thanks for the "find."

As for the Trib, it is not searchable in our database and won't be until the spring of 2004.

Chris
Chris Cowan
Vice President, Publishing
ProQuest Information & Learning
300 N. Zeeb Road
Ann Arbor, MI  48106-1346
Ph: 800-521-0600, ext. 6204
Ph: 734-975-6204
Fax: 734-975-6271

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at aol.com [mailto:Bapopik at aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 2:13 PM
To: christopher.cowan at il.proquest.com
Subject: "Trick or Treat" from Los Angeles Times (1938)


Dear Mr. Cowan,

   You might be interested in knowing that the LOS ANGELES TIMES has given us our first "trick or treat."
    I'm sorry about the delay in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  The poor quality of the microfilm is something I've experienced all too often.  If the 1890s amd 1900s are readable, is there a "sundae" + "ice cream" citation?
    Happy Halloween.

Barry Popik
New York, NY

---------------------------------------------------------------
THAT WINDY CITY

   It's earlier.
   No matter what happens, though, the Chicago Public Library's web page still retains the 1893 World's Fair myth.  DO THEY STILL NOT BELIEVE ME?  DON'T PEOPLE IN CHICAGO DESERVE TO KNOW THIS?
   Do I charge too much (free) for my work?


   15 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   NONE of the obnoxious office-holders in Chicago have been murdered as yet.  Two or three Committees are thought to be preparing ropes and selecting lamp-posts, but the "probabilities" for the region may be summed up as follows: "Calm, with occasional newspaper gusts."

   17 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 2:
   GARDEN CITY GROWLERS.

   28 April 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 1, col. 4:
   The Bristow Bazoo at the Garden City.

   8 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   THERE was a little tornado in Chicago on Saturday, but it spent itself mostly on churches.  All the other buildings in Chicago were so heavily weighed down with mortgages that no whirlwind could affect them.

   9 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 4:
   _THAT WINDY CITY._
_Some of the Freaks of the Last Chicago_
      _Tornado._
   [From Yesterday's Times.]
   The traditional fickleness of the wind was shown in strange odjects on which it exerted its force.


(It is not clear what "Yesterday's Times" is, but column six has a story from "New York Correspondence Chicago Times"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 20 19:34:46 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:34:46 -0400
Subject: Windy City (13 May 1876)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.153446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It's also, very clearly, a few days later.


   13 May 1876, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 1:
   _CHICAGO LETTER._
_The Sad Story of a Base-Ball Tour--How_
   _the "Cincinnatis" Took their Punish-_
   _ment._
Special Correspondence of the Enquirer.
      CHICAGO, May 11, 1876.
   When the Red Stockings left Cincinnati for Chicago Tuesday morning they never dreamed they were going three hundred miles to get "skunked."
(...)
(Col. 2--ed.)
   The trouble was not with the boys, but with the chairs.  The latter had been cut out for slimmer people than base-ball men, and fit too tightly.  There was no time to lose, however, in prying off chairs, and the boys all started trainward, chairs and all.  Only the plucky nerve of the eating-house keeper rescued the useful seats from a journey to the Windy City.


(I was told that the Library of Congress is missing the 1876 CINCINNATI ENQUIRER volume before this one--ed.)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 20 20:02:17 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:02:17 -0700
Subject: conscience raising
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.130217.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i came across this on rec.gardens just now:
   Fortunately, many, many people in my age bracket 45-50 are coming into
   this age from growing up in the 60s, where conscience raising was
prevalent.

surely this started out as "consciousness raising".  but now i see
hundreds of examples from google.

this is something that could easily have been an intentional coining or
an unconscious (!) reshaping, and in either case it could have happened
many times independently.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 00:42:16 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:42:16 -0400
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926) -(an antedating)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.204216.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

I just did ancestry.com from 1925-1910.  There was NO antedating of the
baseball useage you found in 1926, nor was there any hint of a "mistake" on
radio.

There WAS a 1924 hit for the meaning of a radio set that interfers with
normal radio broadcasts.   It was from the Appleton(WI) Post Crescent, Nov.
8, 1924, page 8, column 4:

   <  A blooper is an owner of a regenerative set who operates it in such a
manner as to cause whistles or howls in neighboring receiving sets, in other
words he causes the set to radiate.>

It seems almost too coincidental that the "blooper" radio set appears in
1924, and a "blooper" in baseball appears about 1926.  There almost
certainly should be a connection.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:59 PM
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)


>    The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an
embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
>    Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next
"Bloopies"--but probably not.
>
>
>       TIGERS SCORE FOUR IN SEVENTH TO BEAT SENATORS IN OPENER, 4-1
>        ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Sep 2, 1925.                   p. B1 (2 pages):
> Pg. 2:  _"BEEFING" PARTY_
>    The Senators bunched around Ump Schmidt for a little "beefing" party,
but nothing in the way of punches took place.  In fact, it was none other
than Mr. Eckert, himself, who provided the next punch, a one-base "blooper"
rap over the drawn-in Solon infield that brought both O'Shea and Whitney
over the rubber and clinched the tilt.
>
>       LAZERRE'S FORTY-THIRD HOMER TIES COAST MARK
>        ROBERT RAY.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1925.                   p. 9 (2 pages):
> Pg. 1:  Piercy hurled a magnificent game holding the Tigers to one hit, a
blooper single by Jackie Warner in the sixth frame, for eight frames.
>
>       WARFARE ON BLOOPERS IS NOW WAGED
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: Feb 14, 1926.                   p. B9 (1 page):
>    Warfare against bloopers is declared!  With the terrific demonstration
of blooping fresh in the minds of all listeners who attempted to receive
foreign stations during the International Radio Week tests just concluded,
the campaign announced by the Radio Digest should meet with instant success.
> (...)  ...to reduce radiation or blooping to a minimum.
>
> (All other cites until 1939 appear to be from sports.  I'll keep
checking--ed.)
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 01:35:49 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:35:49 -0500
Subject: "Three hots and a cot" (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.203549.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember this expression being used during the Vietnam War. A
newspaper article discussed why many young men (might have been
African-Americans, but I'm not sure on this point) were enlisting,
and the answer received from an enlistee was that you get "three hots
and a cot."

Gerald Cohen


At 11:30 PM -0400 10/19/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a
>cot," meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE
>SQUARES)."
>...
>DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
>        By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.  New York
>Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969. p. 51 (1
>page):
>    For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his
>room and board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Oct 21 01:54:08 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:54:08 -0500
Subject: Blooper (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.205408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alternative definition, from the late 60's in Viet Nam:  The M-79 (40 mm)
grenade launcher was known as a 'blooper' for both the sound of the launch
and the high trajectory, somewhat similar to a baseball fly.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>


   The HDAS has 1937 for the baseball "blooper."  It has 1947 for an
embarrassing mistake, in radio or television.
   Perhaps this will give me mention on William Safire next "Bloopies"--but
probably not.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Oct 21 02:02:14 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:02:14 -0400
Subject: "Three hots and a cot" (1969)
In-Reply-To: <p04310102bbba3c8dbac7@[131.151.65.37]>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.220214.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>I remember this expression being used during the Vietnam War. A

I last heard it - in 1988 - in a residential alcohol/drug recovery
center. (Yes, I was residing there.) Someone went AWOL near the end of his
30-day stay - some others (all males, as I recall and young enough to
have been in Vietnam) surmised that he had been there only for the "3 hots
and a cot."

Bethany


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 02:32:23 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:32:23 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.223223.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on three/hots/cots.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:30 PM
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)


>    The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "1970s" for "three hots and a cot,"
meaning "three meals a day plus a bed for the night (cf. THREE SQUARES)."
>    Not to be confused with three hot men/women and a cot.  That just
wouldn't work on a cot.
>
>
> DELINQUENT BOYS LEARN AT CAMPS
>        By JOAN LEE FAUST Special to The New York Times.       New York
Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Sep 28, 1969.
p. 51 (1 page):
>    For a day's work, each youth is paid 50 cents plus earning his room and
board, or "three hots and a cot," as one youth described it.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct 21 03:13:09 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:13:09 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
In-Reply-To: <024c01c3977b$90357560$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.231309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on three/hots/cots.

The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired. I believe
there are certain common words which just can't be searched for in certain
fields. The site doesn't tell you this (AFAIK): you just get no responses.
For example I get ZERO newspaper hits not only for "three/hots" but also
for "three/miles", "three/things", "three/points", "three/goals",
"three/years", "three/days", etc.

Another example: "[blank]/three" gives ZERO hits, "[blank]/"thine" about
64,000.

Another: about 37,000 hits for "yesterday/evening", ZERO for "this/evening".

The Valdez newspaper sometimes is an exception: perhaps it's treated
differently for some reason.

If SC or others know how to work around the glitches ... please fill me in!

-- Doug Wilson


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Oct 21 03:32:11 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:32:11 -0400
Subject: Three hots and a cot (1969)
Message-ID: <MON.20.OCT.2003.233211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug said, "The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired."

Welcome to the bizarro world of Ancestry.com.

Hey!  You knew the mission was dangerous when you accepted it.  :)

If I explained it to you, I'd have to kill you!

Perhaps Barry or Jonathon can.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Three hots and a cot (1969)


> >For what it's worth, NO ancestry.com hits from 1959-69 on
three/hots/cots.
>
> The ancestry.com search engine leaves something to be desired. I believe
> there are certain common words which just can't be searched for in certain
> fields. The site doesn't tell you this (AFAIK): you just get no responses.
> For example I get ZERO newspaper hits not only for "three/hots" but also
> for "three/miles", "three/things", "three/points", "three/goals",
> "three/years", "three/days", etc.
>
> Another example: "[blank]/three" gives ZERO hits, "[blank]/"thine" about
> 64,000.
>
> Another: about 37,000 hits for "yesterday/evening", ZERO for
"this/evening".
>
> The Valdez newspaper sometimes is an exception: perhaps it's treated
> differently for some reason.
>
> If SC or others know how to work around the glitches ... please fill me
in!
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 21 09:03:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:03:11 EDT
Subject: "Baltimore" Lemon Sticks (1911 or 1913?)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.050311.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Two Marian Burros articles for the NEW YORK TIMES in the 1980s caught my
attention.  In the July 1987 article, she put Baltimore lemon sticks right up
there with Buffalo Wings and the New York Egg Cream.
   Did this idea really come from Baltimore?  I checked several Baltimore
guidebooks (written recently)--not one mentioned "lemon sticks."
  Sucking juice through a candy straw--who invented that?


(PROQUEST DATABASE)
   A May Day Frolic and How It Came About
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 9, 1915. p. M7 (1
page):
   "We can have sandwiches of jelly or lettuce, and cakes and candies, and,
best of all, a lemon and lemon stick.  Then, if the weather is fine, we can eat
out of doors, or we can be perfectly comfortable inside.  The boys can bring
the candy and lemons and lemon sticks, and we girls will supply the sandwiches
and cakes."


   Flower Mart To Be Largest In Its History
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 26, 1942. p. R12 (1
page):
   The children who visit the mart this year will be favored with attractions
offered for their special interest such as a booth of pets, another featuring
a doll house and still another selling gingerbread, cookies and lemon sticks.

   An Excursion To Baltimore's Inner Harbor
By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 14,
1983. p. XX19 (2 pages):
Pg XX19:  The Oasis sells good lemon ices as well as the traditional
Baltimore lemon stick, a peppermint stick inserted in a whole lemon.  The proper way
to eat this is to suck on the peppermint stick, allowing the lemon juice to
mingle with its sweetness.

   A Fourth of July Toast to Foods That Made America Great
By MARIAN BURROS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 1,
1987. p. C1 (2 pages)
Pg. C6:
   _Baltimore Lemon Stick._  There was a lemon stick crisis at this year's
Flower Mart, Baltimore's annual fund-raiser for the women's Civic League.  The
candy can supplier had gone out of business and the available canes were either
"too porous, so they start dissolving, or too hard, so you can't draw the
juice up through it," said June Goldfield, a chairman of past Flower Marts.
Eventually, a North Carolina company saved this Baltimore tradition.  Lemon sticks
are lemon halves into which a candy cane is inserted.  Suck on the candy cane
and pull up the sour lemon juice.  Mrs. Goldfield said lemon sticks were born
in either 1911 or 1913.

   Lemon Candy
HELEN N. ROSENBERG. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul
22, 1987. p. C8 (1 page):
To the Living Section:
   In "A July 4 Toast to Foods That Made America Great" [July 1], Marian
Burros asked, "Who but a Baltimorean would know how to eat a lemon stick (a candy
cane stuck into a lemon)?"
   My father, who was raised on the Lower East Side of Manhattan in the
1890's and never set foot in Baltimore, often explained his fondness for sucking
lemons by recalling a favorite confection.  It was half a lemon into which was
stuck a long, thin lemon-flavored candy stick, through which the lemon juice
was sucked.
   HELEN N. ROSENBERG
   New York


(ANCESTRY DATABASE)
   30 June 1934, MANSFIELD NEWS (Mansfield, Ohio), pg. 4, col. 5:
   We were poor in money.  In fact coin was a nebulous thing, but we were
happy.  I wish I had the appetite that was mine when I was 10 years old.  I would
walk into Frank Barnes store, lay down a nickle, and buy sticks of candy.
There would be one of peppermint, one of wintergreen, one of lemon, one of
hoarhound, one of clove, and best of all a stick with a pink "o. k.," running from
end to end.  It was porous.  I would stick one end into a dipper of water and
suck good tastes and perfume until my little stomach was as tight as a drum
head.

   28 June 1935, CHILICOTHE CONSTITUTION-TRIBUNE (Chilicothe, Missouri), pg.
4, col. 2:
_A Real Fourth_
_of July Party_
_For the Kiddies_
(...)
      _Recalled From Childhood_
   The Fourth of July appetizer is an inspiration from my own childhood when
we used to force a stick of lemon candy into half a lemon and suck the lemon
juice through it.  Instead of lemons, oranges, thoroughly scrubbed and chilled,
one for each child, may be used.  To prepare, cut a slice from the top of
each fruit, and with a sharp knife loosen flesh from shell and cut between
segments.  Insert a stick of  red and white peppermint candy.  Stick a small flag in
the orange rind and serve.

   2 July 1935, CHARLESTON DAILY MAIL (Charleston, West Virginia), pg. 14,
cols. 2-3:
(Same story as above, but with a nice photo containing this caption--ed.)
   Old-fashioned sugar stick candy serves as a sweetening straw for this
unusual children's party dish--stick the candy into a lemon or orange and let the
guests suck out the juice.

   23 December 1975, Edwardsville Intelligencer (Edwardsville, Illinois), pg.
6B, col. 1:
_PEPPERMINT ORANGES_
   Roll fresh oranges gently on table top to soften, and cut small hole on
the top of each one.  Insert stick of peppermint candy.  Small fry can suck the
juice through the candy stick, making a double treat!


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 21 11:41:17 2003
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 07:41:17 EDT
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.074117.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now free in Vocabula -- "Making Peace in the Language Wars" by Bryan A.
Garner

<A HREF="http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp">http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp</A>



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
A measly $8.95 a year
www.vocabula.com
______________________

The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
United States
Tel: (781) 861-1515


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 21 17:41:27 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:41:27 -0700
Subject: muleociation (cont.)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.104127.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

over in soc.motss i told the "muleociation" story and wondered aloud
about content checkers.  and got this amazing but true story:

[me]
 >>are there bad-word checkers that flag words with "ass" in them, or
 >>words that begin with "ass" (associate, assist, assemble, assign, etc.
 >>-- a fair collection of really useful words)?  i could just barely
 >>manage to imagine such a silly thing, but i really have trouble
 >>imagining software that went so far as to suggest "mule" as a
 >>substitute for "ass".

[alex elliott]
 >Quite some years ago I went to an internet cafe that had an extremely
 >stupid and extremely over-zealous objectionable content filter.  It was
 >apparently set to screen out "hate speech" as well as sexual stuff,
but it
 >didn't bother to check whether the filtered words were part of larger,
 >non-objectionable words or not (filtered words were just deleted, not
 >substituted with synonyms or anything).

 >I was trying to read my email, but it was very difficult since the
sender
 >was renamed to "Mne" (that's "Maryanne" without the "aryan") and the
first
 >word of her note was "Wver" (that's "Whatever" without the "hate").  It
 >was equally incomprehensible the whole way through.

 >I'm still annoyed that I didn't ask for my money back for the time I
paid
 >for.  The stupid filter made the computer essentially useless.

arnold


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:14:42 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:14:42 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "hog fruit" (= hot dog)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sam Clements kindly sent me a long 1913 article on "hot dog," and
several points may be of interest to the ads-l members. Here's the
first installment: "hog fruit", evidently a humorous reference to
"hot dog," perhaps based on "hen fruit" (= egg).

Meade, James W. 1913. "Have You got the 'Hot Dog' Habit? No? Then
Hurry   for Everybody That's Anybody is Doing it Now." Atlanta
Constitution, Sunday, April 13, 1913, section A, p. 15. cols. 1-7.
[col. 1]:
'Hail! The Hot Dog!
'At last has the luscious hog-fruit come into its own.  From the
        purlieus of the Great Boulevard of Blaze to the most isolated
jerkwater hamlet in Mississippi, it has made the air fragrant with
the seductive aroma of onions and sauerkraut, and has become an
        industry which is the means of separating the American people
of millions every year.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:15:22 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:15:22 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article,
 1913: Origin of "hot dog" is too embarrassing to tell
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message # 2 on Meade's 1913 "hot dog" article. In col. 1 we
see here an indirect reference to the popular 19th century belief
(true!) that sausages sometimes contained dog meat:

'"Hot dog" is the libel slang writers have [illegible; put?] on
the                weinerwurst, or rather, the Frankfurter.  It is
sometimes referred to as a young sausage, picked before it is ripe.
Its--origin--well let's hark back to our story, and let's not believe
all we hear about the weinie.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:16:07 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:16:07 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "skinned",
 "two ways from Sunday," "gentle art of lifting the coin," chile
 on hot dogs
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message #3 on Meade's "hot dog" article. Sam Clements asks me
whether 1913 is early for chile on hot dogs (I'm not sure; I'll have
to check my notes).
"Two ways from Sunday"--This sort of expression was recently
discussed on ads-l.
"Gentle art of lifting the coin"--I suppose this refers to making money.

    Here's the passage:

        'Atlanta's Greeks, the men who control the "hot dog" industry
here, have old Julius Caesar and his compatriots skinned two ways
from Sunday in the gentle art of lifting the coin. In five years gone
by they have made the Sherman act blush with shame.  They are the
compeers of every other nation when it comes to forking "hot dogs"
and spreading the mustard, chile, and the sauerkraut.'

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 19:17:29 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:17:29 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "Hot Dog" as a dance
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.141729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is message #4 on Meade's "hot dog" article. The Texas Tommy was
a dance. I never heard of the Tango Tea..

[col. 2; heading]:  Society [i.e., High Society] Has the Habit
        'Society has the weinie, or rather the "hot dog" fad.  The
"turkey trot," "Texas Tommy," gave way to the "Tango Tea," and now
the "Hot Dog Hop" and the "Weinie Wiggle" threaten to keep anxious
mothers and careless chaperons awake at night.  "Hot Dog" clubs are
to be found in Atlanta. The day does not seem far distant when
college and round table debates will include the "hot dog" in the
discussions.'

Gerald Cohen

P.S. There are a few more items of interest: "bones" (= dollars),
"larripun truck" (meaning: ?), "hot cat" stands. I'll get to them
tomorrow.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Oct 21 20:36:32 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:36:32 -0500
Subject: "larrupin' truck"--message from Joan Hall
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.153632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My thanks to Joan Hall for her message below concerning the meaning
of "larripun [sic; misspelled] truck" in the 1913 "hot dog" article
(Atlanta Constitution).
The full quote comes near the end of the article:
  "And now let's draw the curtain, but lest some readers might go
astray, or perhaps not grasp the intent of this effort, we want to
explain that it is not our desire to throw cold water on the "hot
dog."  Quite to the contrary, we want to reiterate that "hot dog" is
larripun [sic] truck, and is all to the mustard with a little catsup
and sauerkraut thrown in."

Gerald Cohen


At 2:51 PM -0500 10/21/03, Joan Houston Hall wrote:
>Subject: larrupin' truck
>
>
>Hi Gerald,
>My guess is that it's "larrupin' truck," or 'delicious  vegetables
>[or food generally].'  "Larruping" is especially common in the West
>Midland, Texas, and Oklahoma.
>
>Best,
>Joan


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Oct 22 01:18:37 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:18:37 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.211837.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't find the word in OED nor M-W.  I may have missed it.

HDAS has 1916.  Meaning, "a neighborhood inhabited principaly by blacks."
>From the song, "Dark-Town Strutter's Ball."

I couldn't help searching up some more articles by James Meade from the
Atlanta Constitution--the fellow who wrote the "hot dog" article I sent to
Gerald Cohen.  Mr. Meade has a nice, slangy, writing style.

>From the Atlanta Constitution,  May 5, 1912, page (hard to read), column
four.  This is probably another of those Sunday feature section articles.

      <"He's a Bear!  He's a Bear--"     And to the riotous accompaniment of
a careless orchestra, Darktown danced.  It was the grand opening of a new
cafe and ball room on the rue de Collins.  Bright the lamps shone o'er dusky
belies, and gallant sable men.>

Wowzzer.  This article starts out gangbusters!  I'll have to read it in it's
entirety.  Stay tuned.

SC


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:52:27 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:52:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?---(message #1)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, here's the first of a few messages sent to the 19th century
baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


>To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>From: "robert h. schaefer" <bubba at xtalwind.net>
>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:07:54 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>I have been reading the various accounts of the Great Base Ball Match of
>1858, played at the Fashion Race Course.  At the conclusion of the first
>game, played on July 20th, The Spirit of the Times for July 24th carried
>this account of the post-game ceremonies:
>
>"Judge Van Cott, of the Gotham Club, proposed a toast, 'Health, success,
>and prosperity to the members of the Brooklyn Base Ball Clubs,' which was
>received with all the honors, and three time three a tiger."
>
>I am puzzled by the expression, "three times three a tiger."  Does anyone
>know what this means, and/or where it came from ?
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Bob Schaefer
>Beverly Hills, Florida


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:53:10 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:53:10 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?--(message #2)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Now you are venturing into vintage base ball territory. :)
>
>A tiger is not just an animal, but also part of a cheer, as defined
>in this 1913 dictionary:
>http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Tiger
>"4. A kind of growl or screech, after cheering; as, three cheers and
>a tiger. [Colloq. U.S.]"
>
>Civil War reenactors, and now vintage base ballists, have been
>debating "three cheers and a tiger" for some time. Were the cheers
>"hurrah" or "huzzah"? I have heard the argument that a synonym for
>"cheer" is "huzzah" and the cheer shouted was "hurrah," but yet,
>song lyrics of the day have both. Midwestern 1860 vintage base ball
>typically just shouts three "huzzahs" without the tiger. Mr.
>Hunkele's club in Michigan has been enlightening us with a true
>"three cheers and a tiger" at the games of the Sterling Base Ball
>Club.
>
>I am guessing that this usage, "three time three a tiger," was an
>especially jubilant version.
>
>Deano Thilgen
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 01:53:32 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:53:32 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger?--(message #3)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.205332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>From: David McDonald <davidm at achilles.net>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Bob,
>
>I think he's saying something to the effect that his opponents deserve three
>times the usual three cheers...plus a tiger. The Shorter Oxford defines
>tiger as "(U.S. slang): A shriek or howl (often the word 'tiger')
>terminating a prolonged and enthusiastic cheer (1856)" as in three
>cheers!...tiger!
>
>Cheers,
>David McDonald
>Ottawa


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 03:47:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:47:35 -0400
Subject: Lights, Camera, Action (1926)
Message-ID: <TUE.21.OCT.2003.234735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't know if Fred Shapiro is interested in this show business phrase that long ago caught on with the general public.
   It dates before the talkies.



      CHRISTY GIRLS AT HOME ON SET
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1926.                   p. B8 (1 page):
(Photo caption--ed.)
      _Lights, Camera, Action_
   Evelyn Egan, left, and Helen Myers, right, register aural gratification while A. V. Williams tunes in something snappy.

      Display Ad 57 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 17, 1929.                   p. B2 (1 page):
   Lights+Camera+Action!
   Another Hollywood Adopted Style
(New York Hat Stores ad--ed.)

      Action! Lights! Camera!
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 25, 1934.                   p. SM6 (1 page)


   Action-Lights-Camera?  Were they shooting porn in 1934?
LIGHTS CAMERA ACTION--58,200 Google hits
LIGHTS ACTION CAMERA--1,020 Google hits
CAMERA LIGHTS ACTION--809 Google hits
ACTION LIGHTS CAMERA--398 Google hits
CAMERA ACTION LIGHTS--154 Google hits
ACTION CAMERA LIGHTS---131 Google hits


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Oct 22 13:24:48 2003
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:24:48 -0400
Subject: do we allow paid advertisements?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.092448.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Robert Hartwell Fiske <Vocabula at AOL.COM>

: Now free in Vocabula -- "Making Peace in the Language Wars" by Bryan A.
: Garner

: http://www.vocabula.com/2003/VROct03Garner.asp

Not a bad article, all in all, particularly in its description of the
excesses that both descriptivists and prescriptivists commit in their
attempts to get their jabs in at each other.

However, i find it somewhat amusing that Garner first criticizes Huddleston
& Pullum for advocating a peace that would involve prescriptivists making
all the changes, and then advocates a peace that would involve
descriptivists (at least, those descriptivists in whose camp i fall) making
all the changes.

A rapprochement between the two camps would be a good thing, IMO. However, i
suspect that it's not going to come about as the result of each side
presenting solutions that make perfect sense to that side (and,
unfortunately, *only* that side).

David, who doesn't capitalize "i" on purpose
--
David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 14:03:57 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:03:57 -0500
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.090357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See also Jonathon Green's _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_, 2000:
"TIGER, noun #2: (mid 19C - 1900s): (US) a for of college cheer, esp.
in phr. 'three cheers and a tiger', the three usual 'hip-hip-hoorays'
plus a long-drawn-out shriek, often of the word 'tiger'."

   "Three times three" (in "three times three a tiger") evidently
means three times the normal number of "hip-hip-hoorays."

Gerald Cohen


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:12:49 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:12:49 EDT
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.101249.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
wrote:

<begin quote>
"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
Usenet.

Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
Web.
<end quote>

On the other hand, AOL News says

<begin quote>
What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?

By RACHEL KIPP, AP

ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
but no cure.

''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
songs that are tough to shake.

''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's
heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all
over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
snip>
<end quote>

      - Jim Landau


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Oct 22 14:28:28 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:28:28 +0100
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.152828.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My first cite (from Mathews Dict. Americanisms, 1950) runs thus:

1856 Spirit of Times  8 Nov. 165/1: Mr. Andrews [...] concluded by [...]
calling upon the Excelsiors to give three times three and a tiger to the
Putnams

A second runs

1870 New York Herald 17 Nov. Gentlemen, I call for nine cheers and a tiger
in honor of our guests

It seems that the whole 'three times' three (or 'nine') cheers plus the
shriek of 'Tiger!' was par for the course at this early stage. However, if
my cites are to believed, by the 1880s this seems to have diminished to the
better known 'three cheers'. Plus, of course, the tiger.

FWIW I offer this proposed etymology, culled from the Bulletin (Sydney,
Australia).

1900 Bulletin (Sydney) 30 Jun. Red Page/2:  Tradition and custom hold that
the ?tiger? is a howl which accentuates the cheers and intensifies the
applause. The best of several ?origins? tells how, early in this century, an
American politician, S.S. Prentiss, was stumping the country, and came to a
town where there was a small menagerie on exhibition. This he hired for a
day and threw it open to all-comers, availing himself of the occasion to
make a political speech. The orator, holding a 10ft. pole, stood on the
tiger?s cage, in the roof of which there was a hole, and whenever the
multitudes applauded one of his ?points? with three cheers, Prentiss poked
the tiger, who uttered a harsh roar. From this 'three cheers and a tiger'
spread over the country.

As to the veracity of such a claim, I cannot speak (tho' I tend to
scepticism), but would be grateful for any comments, especially as to the
biography (and campaigning tactics) of Mr Prentiss..

Jonathon Green


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:43:40 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:43:40 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.104340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I saw the AP article about Professor Kellaris too and wondered about it.  Bear in mind that reporters get a lot of things wrong (reporting is harder than it sounds); I get interviewed from time to time myself on securities law, and it's excruciating when a reporter's mistake makes me look like an idiot.  But "earworm" clearly was not invented by Kellaris in 2000.  We've talked about this before on ADS-L, and the earliest use yet found seems to be from the 9/18/87 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist Bobby Watson ("I like to create little earworms").

John Baker



-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 10:13 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"


On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
wrote:

<begin quote>
"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
Usenet.

Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
Web.
<end quote>

On the other hand, AOL News says

<begin quote>
What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?

By RACHEL KIPP, AP

ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
but no cure.

''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
songs that are tough to shake.

''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's
heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all
over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
snip>
<end quote>

      - Jim Landau


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 22 14:58:16 2003
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:58:16 EDT
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.105816.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At the annual Princeton reunion, which from everything I have heard is the
mother-of-all reunions, there is an event called the P-rade which involves all
of the returning classes, beginning with the 25th, then the "Old Guard" (oldest
surviving class), and so on down to the most recent year, marching (well,
walking) along the main roads of the campus which are lined with the various
classes waiting their turns to fall into line.  Periodically "tigers" are given.
For example an enthusiast from the class of 1985 might be so overcome at the
sight of the advancing class of 1945, resplendent in their orange and black
coats, that he will turn to his classmates and begin this cheer (which the whole
class takes up) "Tiger-tiger- tiger-sis-sis-sis-boom-boom-boom-bah! 45! 45!
45!, then everyone cheers and drinks even greater quantities of beer. The rhythm
is 3 sets of triplets, without a pause, ending in the bah!   Princeton's
mascot is of course the tiger, and how long this particular cheer has been around
I don't know, but it is 3 times three with a bah at the end.

DF Coye
The College of NJ


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Oct 22 15:47:25 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:47:25 -0700
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <122.2740fdd6.2cc7ea61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.084725.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 07:12 AM, James A. Landau quotes a
dating to 1993 on soc.motss and a claim by a univ. of cincinnati
professor to have invented the term.

Word Spy has a 1987 cite.

it's also a word that is likely to have been translated from the german
many times, by different people independently.  or even invented
independently.

it doesn't seem to be in allen metcalf's Predicting New Words.  i think
it has an excellent future, though.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 22 14:58:27 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:58:27 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <122.2740fdd6.2cc7ea61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.105827.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reminds me of a "Twilight Zone" episode too many years ago, in which an
earworm/earwig crawled inside a man's ear and burrowed through his brain to
the other side, driving him literally crazy.  Scariest show I've ever seen.

At 10:12 AM 10/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/25/2003 1:47:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sal" (self at TOWSE.COM)
>wrote:
>
><begin quote>
>"earworm" is in quite common use in the groups I frequent on
>Usenet.
>
>Checking Googja, the first instance I can find "earworm" used in
>a Usenet post is a post to soc.motss 1993-03-18. The person
>writing is explaining "ohrwurm" and translates that German word
>as "earworm." From that thread, the usage seems to have taken off
>in soc.motss and spread from there to other Usenet groups and the
>Web.
><end quote>
>
>On the other hand, AOL News says
>
><begin quote>
>What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head?
>
>By RACHEL KIPP, AP
>
>ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way
>into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of
>annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments,
>but no cure.
>
>''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two
>songs that are tough to shake.
>
>''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing
>professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in
>people's
>heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from
>people all
>over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions.  <
>snip>
><end quote>
>
>       - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Oct 22 17:33:09 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:33:09 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031022110356.01f18b70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.133309.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 11:32:38AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> I'm not interested in the tiger term, but in "huzzah."  In a recent TV
> documentary on the first settlement in the Northwest Territory at Marietta,
> Ohio in 1786 or thereabouts, post-Revolutionary War soldiers were
> re-enacted as shouting "huzzah!" when they toasted their success, or a
> speech, or a celebratory meal.  Is there evidence that this was the earlier
> term, before "hurrah"?

OED has evidence from the seventeenth century.

Jesse Sheidlower


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Oct 22 17:44:22 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 13:44:22 -0400
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.134422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, this _earworm_ has no connection to that in the OED (1598),
meaning "earwig" and figuratively "a secret counsellor."  And, surely, not
to _corn earworm_ (see WBD, AHD4), or more broadly defined (W3).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Oct 22 15:32:38 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:32:38 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <p04310107bbbb9262f352@[131.151.65.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.113238.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not interested in the tiger term, but in "huzzah."  In a recent TV
documentary on the first settlement in the Northwest Territory at Marietta,
Ohio in 1786 or thereabouts, post-Revolutionary War soldiers were
re-enacted as shouting "huzzah!" when they toasted their success, or a
speech, or a celebratory meal.  Is there evidence that this was the earlier
term, before "hurrah"?

At 08:53 PM 10/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>>
>>Now you are venturing into vintage base ball territory. :)
>>
>>A tiger is not just an animal, but also part of a cheer, as defined
>>in this 1913 dictionary:
>>http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Tiger
>>"4. A kind of growl or screech, after cheering; as, three cheers and
>>a tiger. [Colloq. U.S.]"
>>
>>Civil War reenactors, and now vintage base ballists, have been
>>debating "three cheers and a tiger" for some time. Were the cheers
>>"hurrah" or "huzzah"? I have heard the argument that a synonym for
>>"cheer" is "huzzah" and the cheer shouted was "hurrah," but yet,
>>song lyrics of the day have both. Midwestern 1860 vintage base ball
>>typically just shouts three "huzzahs" without the tiger. Mr.
>>Hunkele's club in Michigan has been enlightening us with a true
>>"three cheers and a tiger" at the games of the Sterling Base Ball
>>Club.
>>
>>I am guessing that this usage, "three time three a tiger," was an
>>especially jubilant version.
>>
>>Deano Thilgen


From maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE  Wed Oct 22 17:52:47 2003
From: maxiogee at ESATCLEAR.IE (Tony McCoy O'Grady)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:52:47 +0100
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.185247.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tony McCoy O'Grady
------------------
"The innocent and the beautiful have no enemy but time."
.................................................WB Yeats


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Oct 22 22:48:58 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 17:48:58 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913: "hot cat" stand (for African-Americans)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.174858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Below my signoff is another excerpt from Meade's 1913 article on "hot dog."
---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this? Is it a hot-dog stand for
African-Americans, viewed with the slang term "cat" in mind? (HDAS
seems to have 1920 as the earliest date for "hot cat"--in an
African-American context)

Gerald Cohen


        [col. 1]-- 'Right here let it be said that Atlanta's "hot
dog" industry   from a "teenie, weenie" weinie grew.
        'You'll find them on Marietta street as this [sic: should be
'thick'] as     fleas on a mongrel's back. On Peachtree they line the
curbing close to        the sidewalk, and in Decatur street, the
"Great Black Way" of Atlanta, you'll find the "hot dog" man competing
with the "hot cat" stands that cater exclusively to the gourmants of
Atlanta's ebony population.'

in: Meade, James W. 1913. "Have You got the 'Hot Dog' Habit? No? Then
Hurry   for Everybody That's Anybody is Doing it Now." Atlanta
Constitution, Sunday, April 13, 1913, section A, p. 15. cols. 1-7.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Oct 22 23:11:41 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:11:41 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article,
 1913: "hot cat" stand (for African-Americans)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104bbbca85ddaaf@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.191141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?

Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 22 23:47:15 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:47:15 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <9f.3ed2a34b.2cbc5720@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.194715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours

I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
for?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:40:36 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:40:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "sno-cone" (1941)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W has 1964.

Barry found a trademark for Sno-Kone from 1947.

>From a classified ad in the Long Beach(CA) Independent, July 18, 1941, page
25, col. 3:

<WANT BOY, EXPERIENCED "SNO-CONE" OPERATOR.  135 E. SEASIDE.>

Just trying to save you time, Barry.

Sam


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:44:39 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:44:39 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310221941220.10515-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204439.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 07:47:15PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> > nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours
>
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
> for?

The Portland Oregonian, the Miami Herald, the Cleveland Plain Dealer,
definitely the Times-Picayune, the Kansas City Star.

Historically I'd also add the New York World, but the N.Y. Herald
and Tribune would be more important.

Jesse Sheidlower


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 23 00:46:01 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:46:01 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "sno-cone" (1941)
In-Reply-To: <004801c398fe$486e2900$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.204601.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 08:40:36PM -0400, Sam Clements wrote:
>
> Just trying to save you time, Barry.

Don't be crazy, Sam. Now he's going to have to kill himself
trying to one-up you.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Oct 23 01:08:52 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:08:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.210852.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green nicely emailed me that I have NOT antedated the term
"Darktown."  Mathews had it from 1884, cited in AS.  <The Darktown Fire
Brigade---Saved>

l.  Why did HDAS cite 1916?  They had the AS/Mathews cite.

2.  An observation:  I read an 1884 Ancestry.com hit from the Olean, NY,
paper saying that the local fire department had a set of prints of such
things called "Darktown Fire Brigade." I searched the previous ten years or
so and found no hits for darktown.  So I conclude that the set of prints
available about 1884 popularized the term "darktown."

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <sclements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:18 PM
Subject: Antedating of "darktown" (1912)


> I can't find the word in OED nor M-W.  I may have missed it.
>
> HDAS has 1916.  Meaning, "a neighborhood inhabited principaly by blacks."
> From the song, "Dark-Town Strutter's Ball."
>
> I couldn't help searching up some more articles by James Meade from the
> Atlanta Constitution--the fellow who wrote the "hot dog" article I sent to
> Gerald Cohen.  Mr. Meade has a nice, slangy, writing style.
>
> From the Atlanta Constitution,  May 5, 1912, page (hard to read), column
> four.  This is probably another of those Sunday feature section articles.
>
>       <"He's a Bear!  He's a Bear--"     And to the riotous accompaniment
of
> a careless orchestra, Darktown danced.  It was the grand opening of a new
> cafe and ball room on the rue de Collins.  Bright the lamps shone o'er
dusky
> belies, and gallant sable men.>
>
> Wowzzer.  This article starts out gangbusters!  I'll have to read it in
it's
> entirety.  Stay tuned.
>
> SC
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 23 01:42:19 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:42:19 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <200310221031.1acmPB5Cu3NZFl50@vulture>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.184219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... Is there evidence that this was the earlier
>term, before "hurrah"?

I'm not sure how accurate their linguistic research was, but since
the original Renaissance Faires started by teacher Phyllis Patterson,
the cheers have always been huzzah.  I do know that much of their
other research, e.g., costuming et al. has been pretty accurate to
the time - late 1500s.

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:04:20 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:04:20 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.210420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>
>This discussion has me thinking about how three cheers evolved into
>cheerleading. This webpage on the Princeton website is interesting:
>http://alumni.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp
>
>My question is, why was cheerleading associated with football early
>on, and less so with baseball?
>
>Deano Thilgen
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:18:16 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:18:16 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
In-Reply-To: <p0431010abbbce73a9f80@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.221816.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:04 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>>From: "Dean Thilgen" <vbbdeano at myinfmail.com>
>>Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>>
>>
>>This discussion has me thinking about how three cheers evolved into
>>cheerleading. This webpage on the Princeton website is interesting:
>>http://alumni.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp
>>
>>My question is, why was cheerleading associated with football early
>>on, and less so with baseball?

My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was
still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated
with professional players, and cheerleading is something you do in
school (high school or college).  There have been basketball
cheerleaders in high school and college for a long time too.  I think
that's the key difference rather than anything intrinsic to the
sports themselves, although the opposite position could be defended,
no doubt.

Larry


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:11:22 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:11:22 -0500
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.211122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>
>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.

Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.

Gerald Cohen


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 23 02:26:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:26:41 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p0431010bbbbce7c3bff0@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.222641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>
>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>
>Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>
Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
relevant species?

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Oct 23 02:44:27 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:44:27 -0400
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p0431010bbbbce7c3bff0@[131.151.65.68]>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.224427.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>
>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>
>... But there's no need to assume that "catfish" was humorously altered to
>"cat." "Cat" can mean "catfish"; ....

Yes, "cat" can be used for "catfish", although I think usually with a
qualifier (e.g., "channel cat") ... would "hot" suffice as such a
qualifier? I don't know, but it's my speculation that the usual term was
"catfish stand" and not "[hot] cat stand".

-- Doug Wilson


From willie at HIS.COM  Thu Oct 23 03:07:46 2003
From: willie at HIS.COM (Willie)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:07:46 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.230746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Washington Star.

Willie Schatz, who learned JOURNALISM as a part-timer there for four
fabulous years.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >    Ah, they've discovered that the 19th century Chicago Tribune is
> > nearly illegible.  No surprise there!  You spend hours and hours
>
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
> for?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Oct 23 03:57:48 2003
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:57:48 -0700
Subject: Two sources for "earworm"
In-Reply-To: <200310221547.h9MFlfWY009374@mtaw3.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.22.OCT.2003.205748.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:

>Word Spy has a 1987 cite.
>
>it's also a word that is likely to have been translated from the german
>many times, by different people independently.  or even invented
>independently.

I wonder if the 1988 publication of Howard Rheingold's _They Have a
Word for It_ might have been responsible for helping to spread the
English word, since I see from the Amazon reproduction of the index
that _Ohrwurm_ is one of the terms treated.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 06:14:01 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 02:14:01 EDT
Subject: Okeh sign (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.021401.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from a parking ticket-Yankee-sleep deprived haze.  At five a.m.,
 I'll hop on a dog and take a turn for the Worcester.
   I got a good copy of this page from the Library of Congress on Monday.


      GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S NEW TERMS COMPILED
       CARROLL NYE.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
Angeles, Calif.: Jul 7, 1935.              p. A6 (1 page)

(COL. 3 PHOTO CAPTION--ed.)
      RADIO'S SIGN LANGUAGE AND KEN NILES
   Ken Niles is pictured, center, as he reads from a script for a COlumbia
Broadcasting System show.  Meanwhile, Raymond Paige is using radio sign language
on his orchestra, which the maestro illustrates for us in the series of small
pictures of his own hands.  Explanations: reading from top, left, across the
top and then down to bottom right, (1) This is a Paige signal to harpost for
transposition modulations during program (First fingers form "T"--ed.); (2)
Orchestra goes to second editing of (Col. 4--ed.) chorus if fingers are pointed
up ("Victory" sign--ed.).  If one is pointed up the musicians play the first
ending.  (3) Orchestra takes up theme (Looks like the Yellow Pages
fingers--ed.).  (4) "Okeh," the sign that the program is coming up on schedule.  (5)
Orchestra swings into finish of music (Fist--ed.).  (6) Two thumbs up means
everything on time and perfect.  (7) A secret signal which means "Play better--the
sponsor is in the studio!"  (First two fingers touch the other hand's open
palm--ed.)  Sam Coslow, famous tunesmith, "shot" the pictures.

(Col. 1 article--ed.)

_GLOSSARY OF RADIO'S_
_NEW TERMS COMPILED_
_Contribution to Ether Vocabulary Made by_
   _Technicians, Musicians, Actors, Music_
   _Directors, Writers, Flunkeys_
BY CARROLL NYE
   Radio, at birth, struggled along with a variety of names bestowed upon it
be a number of persons who claimed to be its parents.  And, like all infants,
it was almost inarticulate.
   The parenthood records still are muddled, but there is nothing uncertain
about the vocabulary radio has acquired in the brief span of years since its
christening--unless it be the derivation of some of its terms.  SOme of the
expressions have been borrowed from the theater and screen; others from the
newspaper, but the greater part of the "just happened."
   _WEBSTER'S PROBLEM SAME_
   I've begun a glossary of terms which, admittedly, is incomplete and
subject to dispute.  Even Webster had to start somewhere.
   Here it is:
   SIGNATURE: Theme melody for program designed to establish it definitely in
the mind of the listener.
   MICROPHONE: Similar to telephone.  Little black box which receives sounds
and has the power to throw those who face it into a state of panic.
   TRANSMITTER:  Electrical contrivance which generates carrier waves.
   ANTENNA: Means for projecting carrier wave into space.  Fluctuations of
carrier wave form sounds in receiving set.
      _NOISE BOX_
   RECEIVER: Noise box you have in your home to amuse yourself and annoy the
neighbors.
   DIAL: Circular disk in receiver with markings for locating various
stations.
   KILOCYCLE: Unit of measurement for frequency.

   WAVE  LENGTHS: Meters.
   WATTS: Power output.
   MEGACYCLE: One thousand kilocycles.  Unit of measurement in short-wave
transmission.
   REMOTE or REMOTE CONTROL:  Radio had made noun out of verb.  Means picking
up program from place outside radio studio.
      _BLEND OF SOUNDS_
   MIX: To blend sounds various microphones pick up, into one effective whose
(Illegible last word--ed.).
   MONITOR:  Verb.  Same as mix.
   NEMO:  Simon-pure radio coined word meaning remote pick-up.  Announcer's
key carries the word.
   NETWORK: Thousands of miles of telephone wires, used to transmit radio
programs over great distances.
   BOOSTER STATIONS: Small structures built at 100-miles intervals across the
country, in which control men keep network broadcasts at the proper levels.
   LINE HUM: Trouble in telephone line.
   STATIC: Atmosphere electricity.
      _MAN-MADE STATIC_
   INTERFERENCE: Man-made static through operations of electrical appliances.
   SIGNAL: Man-made code for station identification.
   SIGNAL STRENGHT: Indication of how far a station's broadcast is reaching.
   FADE: Gradually soften music or sound on program.  Lifted from motion
picture dictionary..
   CUT: Stop program.  Motion picture term also.
   SEGUE: Blend parts of program without verbal interruptions.
   SIGN ON: Introductory announcement indicating what station is going on the
air.
   SIGN OFF: Closing announcement if the same character.
   CALL-LETTERS: KMTR, KHJ, KFI, etc. Identification of stations given out by
Federal Radio Commission, now the Federal Communications Commission.
      _VERSITILITY NEEDED_
   ANNOUNCER: Man who is forced to be pleasant while selling Mrs.
Pepperdine's Pleasant Pills for Pale People.  Combination of side-show barker, train
announcer, press agent and Congressman who as (has?--ed.) been inoculated with a
phonograph needle.
   EMCEE:  Master of ceremonies.
   CROONER:  Term that came in with radio.  Man who massages the (Col.
2--ed.) microphone while softly singing sweet nothings.  Supposed to have "S.A."
   BLUES SINGER: Wailing singer.
   TORCH SINGER: Female crooner.
   NEWSCAST: Broadcast of news.
   SPORTSCAST: Broadcast of sports event.
   CANARY: See torch singer.
   STOOGE: The human wall against which the chief comic bounces his gags.
      _IT'S CONTAGIOUS_
   MICROMANIA: Disease which attacks one who loves the sound of his own
voice.  If he once gets on the air it takes an act of Congress to get him off.
   SPONSOR: Commercial firm which puts out the money for radio programs.
   COMMERCIAL: Sponsored program.
   SUSTAINING: Unsponsored program.
   SPOT ANNOUNCEMENT: Brief commercial announcement put on between commercial
or sustaining programs.
   TIME SIGNAL: Inexpensive form of advertising by telling listeners what
time of day it is.
   FLUFF: To see one word or phrase in radio script and say something else.
      _TONGUE-TWISTERS_
   SPOONERISM: Tongue-twisting comedy routine employed by Roy Atwell, Senator
Fishface, J. C. Flippen and Joe Twerp.  Not to be confused with stuttering.
   ARTIST:  Performer who gets more than $10 a week.
   COMMENTATOR: Anyone who imitates Edwin C. Hill, Alexander Woollcott or
read Time magazine.
   FORMAT: Synopsis of radio program.
   SOUND-EFFECTS MAN: One who was bounced on head when a child.
   CHAIN: See "Network."
   HOOK-UP: Same.
   TUNERINNER: Listener.
   TUNEROUTER: Radio editor.
   BEEFER: Malcontent.
      _NO OVERLAPPING_
   SELECTIVITY: Quality of receiving set to reproduce programs of many
stations without having one overlap the other.
   AUDITION: Same as "tryout" in theater parlance.
   AIR CHECK: Recording on wax of program that has been on the air.
   ELECTRICAL TRANSCRIPTION: Program originally recorded on wax and used
subsequently for broadcasts.
   LIVE AUDIENCE: Audience in radio station during broadcast.
   CROSS-TALK: Annoying effect produced when lines are crossed and programs
from two stations come on the air simultaneously.
      _ECHO PRODUCED_
   FEED_BACK: Effect produced when the loudspeaker is in operation in the
control room and the echo goes back through the microphone.
   DEAD MIKE: Microphone that hasn't been connected with the controls.
   LIVE ROOM: Room full of echoes.  Unsuitable for broadcasting purposes.
      _PROFESSIONAL "HAMS"_
   AMATEUR SHOW: Radio program contributed with professional "hams" and
"stooge hams."
   THIN: Expression used to denote the fact that instruments or voices are
not being properly reproduced.
   So much for the nucleus of radio's vocabulary.  Let's polish this off with
some of the strange expressions which are peculiar to the industry.
   SHE'S IN THE MUD: Volume too low.
   SOUNDS LIKE A DRUM: Broadcast sounds hollow.
   SHE'S BOOMY: Indicating performer is too close to the microphone.
   OUT OF THE BEAMS: Performer is out of range of the microphone.
   ON THE NOSE: Program has started and finished at the proper second.
   SHE'S PIQUING: Performer is giving more volume than the microphone can
take.
   There's a starter.  You are welcome to add to it--or correct it.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 07:05:36 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:05:36 EDT
Subject: Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas (1940)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.030536.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some web sites give this as a Spanish proverb, but a few attribute it to
Hollywood actress Jean Harlow.  I don't know what Fred Shapiro has.  I haven't
checked ProQuest.
   Sleep with dogs?  I want to sleep with Catherine Zeta-Jones, but I can
never get her on her cell phone....Who needs sleep, anyway?  (He says, about to
fall asleep soon on a Greyhound bus.)


   15 June 1940, OSHKOSH NORTHWESTERN (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) , pg.5, col. 3:
_American at Crossroads; Beware Of_
_Fifth Columnists, Warns F. B. Keefe_
_In Address at Flag Day Ceremonies_
(...)
   Others, convinced that a nation of 130,000,000 people need not be alarmed
over the activities of a few communists, fascists, or nazis, have been content
to stick their heads under the sands of self-complacency and do nothing to
abate the nuisance.  They have said, "Why be alarmed and pay attention to a few
lice?"  Let me call attention to the fact, however, that a louse or a flea or
a rat can carry a plague.  A tapeworm can starve an athlete and those who
sleep with dogs may expect to wake up with fleas.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 08:17:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:17:13 EDT
Subject: Sno-Cones & Coddies & Pit Beef & Berger Cookies (from Baltimore)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.041713.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Beat me to "sno-cone" but that much (as Maxwell Smart would say).
   During my "Baltimore lemon stick" search, I also ran across "sno-cones"
and "coddies."  DARE has "codfish ball" but not "coddie"?


CITY-SMART GUIDEBOOK
BALTIMORE
John Muir Publications,
Avon Travel Publishing
2000

Pg. 63:  Hometown Specialties
   Pit beef:  A hunk of beef cooked long and slow in a barbecue pit, then
sliced and customarily eaten on a kaiser roll with onions, horseradish, and/or
barbecue sauce.  Find it at any Baltimore street festival, Boog's BBQ at Camden
Yards, and many downtown restaurants.
   Sno-Cones:  Shaved ice flavored with sweet syrup and served in a paper
cone.  Find them in any baltimore neighborhood during the heat of summer.
   Coddies:  Silver-dollar-size fish cakes made from cod, mashed potatoes,
and eggs.  Available at Broadway Market in Fells Point, Attman's Delicatessen,
and Wayne's BBQ.
   Berger Cookies:  Vanilla cookies covered in sinfully rich chocolate fudge.
 Look for them at the Berger's Bakery outpost in Lexington Market, Eddie's
Markets, local Royal Farms convenient stores, and area Giant supermarkets.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 11:56:52 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:56:52 EDT
Subject: "hot dog" article, 1913; catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.075652.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated > Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:11:22 -0500, Gerald Cohen
> gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote (inter alia):
>
>  "Cat" can mean
> "catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
> that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.

or perhaps to a sleeping cow, since "catskinner" is a slang term for a
bull-dozer operator---a linguistic blend (?) of "Caterpillar tractor" (gee, still
another animal) + "muleskinner".

           - Jim Landau


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 13:31:31 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:31:31 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310221941220.10515-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.093131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

St. Louis Globe-Democrat, may she rest in tatters, which ran from 1873
to 1986. The St. Louis Public Library has microfilm:

http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/libsrc/newscoll.htm

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 07:47 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they
> asked
> for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the
> Boston
> Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
> Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News
> (I
> probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
> current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but
> historically
> important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In
> case I
> get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should
> push
> for?


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 13:36:28 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:36:28 -0400
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
In-Reply-To: <36C6F985-055D-11D8-888A-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.093628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 09:31 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> St. Louis Globe-Democrat, may she rest in tatters, which ran from 1873
> to 1986.

Oops: it was founded in 1852, a year after the Post-Dispatch, according
to this rather interesting archive of political cartoons and commentary
from 1896.

http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 23 14:13:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:13:56 -0500
Subject: catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <p04320402bbbceb15d3fb@[130.132.245.173]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.091356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From Laurence Horn, yesterday:
>At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>... But there's no need to assume
>>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>>
>Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
>kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
>not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
>might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
>otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
>the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
>"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
>than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
>reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
>relevant species?
>
>larry



I treated this topic in my article "There's More Than One Way To Skin A Cat."
in: _Studies in Slang_, part 2 (ed.: Gerald Leonard Cohen), Frankfurt
am Main: Peter Lang. 1989, pp. 118-119.

   Here's an excerpt, viz. what John S. Farmer says (in
_Americanisms--Old and New_, 1889):" _CAT or CATFISH...Perhaps the
most common fish in the States, and certainly the one which enjoys
the greatest number of aliases.  the negroes, especially in the
South, call it the _catty_, but its most popular name is simply
_cat_..."

Also, btw, one of Farmer's quotes is: "[Dodge says that] In the purer
streams of the plains is found a beautiful species of CAT-FISH,
called in some parts the lady cat, and in others the channel cat. Its
maximum weight is about three pounds.  The spines of the pectoral
fins are unusually developed and inflict a most painful wound...It is
very strong and active, and when hooked, makes almost as good a fight
as a bass or trout of equal weight.  It is the trout of CAT-FISH."

   Farmer also comments on catfish in general: "In the large rivers
they grow to an immense size."

    So, some catfish could be big and powerful and could put up a heck of fight.
Is there any chance that when Louis Armstrong (on the riverboats)
started popularizing slang "cats" in reference to jazz aficionados,
he had in mind the catfish rather than felines?

Gerald Cohen


>At 9:11 PM -0500 10/22/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>At 7:11 PM -0400 10/22/03, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>>>---"'Hot cat' stand"--what exactly is this?
>>>
>>>Presumably a catfish stand (altered for humor). If the catfish stand is
>>>unfamiliar, one can find several instances by the usual Googling.
>>
>>Thanks; this looks like the solution. But there's no need to assume
>>that "catfish" was humorously altered to "cat." "Cat" can mean
>>"catfish"; cf. "There's more than one way to skin a cat." It's known
>>that the reference here is to a catfish, not a feline.
>>
>Is that in fact known?  The French say that there are more ways to
>kill a cat than by drowning it in butter, and I'm pretty sure they're
>not talking about catfish.  I wonder whether the English cat-skinning
>might also refer originally to the feline, much as we might prefer
>otherwise (I write as a cat-owner three times over, none of which are
>the swimming kind).  What do the first cites tell us?  It's true that
>"cat" is cited for 'catfish' as early as 1705, but when did the "more
>than one way to skin a cat" originate, and how do we know the
>reference was to the Annarhicas, Pimelodus, or one of the other
>relevant species?
>
>larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Oct 23 14:47:58 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:47:58 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.104758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

        Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in your article?

        I came across a couple of quotes that sounded interesting.  From the Galveston Daily News or the Dallas Daily News (or perhaps both; they apparently were under common ownership), a March 8, 1913, editorial:  "Maybe, if one could go deep enough, one would see that the grievance is, not that there is no competition, but that there is too much, wherefore the desirability of having the anti-trust law drive some oil companies out of the state that the others may not be forced to lead so strenuous a life. There are nine ways to skin a cat and at least two uses to be made of an anti-trust law."

        From a 1909 Missouri court opinion (quoting a party's brief):  "He did every acrobatic feat that a man or horse can do, except skin the cat. A blind motorman a block away could have seen the anxiety of this fool horse to enjoy the delightful sensation of a head-on collision."  Batsch v. United Rys. Co. of St. Louis, 143 Mo.App. 58, 122 S.W. 371 (Mo.App. Nov 02, 1909).

        The 1909 cite sounds like there was some well-known acrobatic feat called skinning the cat; could that be the source of the phrase?

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 15:13:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:13:56 -0400
Subject: King of the Kangaroos (1858); Brooklyn Eagle
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.111356.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON QUERY--Have you looked at the American Antiquarian Society's THE WHIP and BROADWAY BELLE?  There are two boxes here at the AAS, and I'll check 'em if you haven't.

DIGITIZED NEWSPAPERS FOR THE FUTURE--The Cincinnati Enquirer, of course.

---------------------------------------------------------------
KING OF THE KANGAROOS

   Our first "kangaroo court" is from Texas in 1853.  The HORNED FROG was a humor periodical from Galveston, and this might help.

   19 June 1858, THE HORNED FROG (Galveston, Texas), pg. 1, col. 4:
   The King of the Kangaroos is in town--the renowned Col. Kinney.  He is a strange man--full of adventure but was never false to a friend.  He has been the best abused man in the state.  Vituperation has assailed him, but he still lives, and when he does fall, he will fall with his feet to his foes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BROOKLYN EAGLE


  Subj:    RE: Popik RE: Ask a BPLibrarian
  Date:    10/23/2003 10:31:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time
  From:    "Holland, Joy" <J.Holland at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  To:    "'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)



We are still trying to determine how best to approach digitizing the huge amount of information in the Eagle from 1902-1955 (the newspaper grew as it got older.) Also there are copyright issues still to be resolved and funding is not yet in place. So although the Library seems to be committed to moving forward with phase two of this project, the later period will not be available in the very near future. That's the bad news. The good news is that once all of these things are in place the actual digitizing will happen quite quickly.

Other good news, which may or may not be of help to you: we still have the morgue clippings of the Eagle from 1902-1955 so you can give us a subject heading, name or whatever and we can do a search for you. Sometimes we get lucky! You can send me your search terms via email if you like. Of course, if you know the date of the material you are looking for, you can still go to the microfilm, either here at BPL or at NYPL on 42nd St.

Joy Holland
Brooklyn Collection

Question:

What are the plans for the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE online?  When will it be
added to (after 1902)?  I need some information from the 1930s!


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Oct 23 15:23:28 2003
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:23:28 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00bbbc8f190cfa@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.082328.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recently went to a "Renaissance Faire" in NY State
and neither the costuming or the language seemed
authentic to my untrained eye/ear. It's interesting to
hear that the "originals" were more authentic. What's
the stpory on these things?

Ed

--- Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> >... Is there evidence that this was the earlier
> >term, before "hurrah"?
>
> I'm not sure how accurate their linguistic research
> was, but since
> the original Renaissance Faires started by teacher
> Phyllis Patterson,
> the cheers have always been huzzah.  I do know that
> much of their
> other research, e.g., costuming et al. has been
> pretty accurate to
> the time - late 1500s.
>
> Rima

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 15:47:46 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:47:46 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540496BAE2@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.114746.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not supporting the catfish derivation of "skinning a cat" one way
or the other, but skinning a catfish is difficult, so I could see how
it might be the origin of the phrase.

For a big cat (like the channel cats), you hammer a nail through its
head into a heavy board or table-top, then you make knicks near the
head and a perforation all the way around, just below the bony part of
the head, like the line of the top of a sock on a leg. With one or two
pairs of pliers or vise-grips, you grab the sides of the top of that
skin-sock, and you pull it with some force back towards the tail. If
you've used a board instead of a table, someone else has to hold the
board. Catfish skin is tough like leather, so it takes muscles, and
you've got to avoid the whiskers, because they can still get you if the
fish is dead.

Grant


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Oct 23 16:01:28 2003
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:01:28 -0400
Subject: catfish/cat
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.120128.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Skin the Cat as an 'acrobatic feat', e.g., swinging with legs over a
tree branch.
http://www2.kpr.edu.on.ca/cdciw/departments/history/inter033.htm
http://www.sfschool.org/programs/elementary/physed/1_physed.shtml
http://www.theseattlesun.com/0304apr/stanstapp.html

As a yo-yo trick (illustrated):
http://kwos.yoyoing.com/finaltricks/skincat/

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 16:15:30 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:15:30 -0400
Subject: Kangaroo Court (1852)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.121530.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Tons of "face the music" in 1852, FWIW.

   18 June 1852, WEEKLY JOURNAL (Galveston, Texas), pg. 2, col. 1:
   The Brazos Delta in speaking of the irregularity of the mails says:
   We have had one regular mail in _succession_, within the last six weeks.  It is understood that Judge Foster will hold a Kangaroo Court, to try the Houston mail driver for contempt of Judge Kangaroo the first time he brings through a regular New Orleans mail."


(_Judge_ Kangaroo?  I thought he was a Captain--ed.)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Oct 23 17:32:09 2003
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:32:09 -0400
Subject: Amazon Full-Text Search of 120,000 Books
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.133209.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rejoice in public corpora:

Amazon is making 120,000 of its books full-text searchable on its site.
That is, the contents of the books, not just the metadata. This has
been active for a while already, and it works pretty well. You do your
regular search, and in the results you'll see an excerpt from the
actual page on which the words or phrases were used. Then you can call
up a fuller quote from the work, or even an image of the very page.
Voil?, instant online citation resource. It also allows searching
within a specific book.

How it Works
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/10197021/

Amazon Announcement
http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01//books/inside/jeff-letter-2.gif

The main weakness is that the search is not very advanced. For example,
it seems to respect quotes for a phrase search, listing matching
phrases first, but it a) avoids common words like articles and
prepositions. meaning "Missouri mule" and "Missouri on a mule" return
the same results, and b) it also returns non-phrase results, meaning
you still have an unrefined list of results. It returns identical
results for singulars and plurals, no matter which you look for:
"Missouri mule" and "Missouri mules" return the same results, which is
probably better than not doing it.

A minor weakness, one I would hope is amended, is that only 120,000
books are currently searchable. I suspect the dictionaries never will
be, but they've a lot of catching up to do.

Another minor weakness is that the OCR, like most OCR, is imperfect.
There's garbled text here and there.

Still, a good resource.

Grant


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 23 17:44:51 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:44:51 -0700
Subject: more on possessive antecedents
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.104451.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fans of the possessive antecedents discussion might want to look at two
recent postings by me to the group blog at www.languagelog.com.
there's one from 21 october on the idea that sentences like "Einstein's
discoveries made him famous" are ungrammatical in isolation, but ok if
there's an antecedent for the pronoun earlier in the context.  and one
from today about a prediction of this proposal, that there are no
first-mention possessive antecedents (or, at least, that The New Yorker
doesn't permit such things).

both postings have real data in them, and least some linguistics,
though the ratio of ridicule to linguistics is considerably higher in
the second than in the first.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who decided against posting in
multiple places


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Oct 23 18:14:24 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:14:24 -0700
Subject: muleociation (cont. further)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.111424.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

still more from soc.motss on really stupid content checkers:

[chris ambidge]
        I remember reading in some reasonably reliable source - *New
         Scientist* I think - that some scientist had gone to another
         university to give a talk, forgot some material and went
a-googling
         to get other stuff, using an account at the host establishment.

         Alarums and excursions!  Naughty mateial being sought! Send in
         the monobrow security guards!

         It turned out that the no-naughty-content filters were
searching on
         four-character strings, and thought the visiting scientist was
         looking for X-Rated Sites when in fact he was looking for X-Ray
         Crystallography.

         It must have been startling to be confronted with "evidence"
he'd
         been pornsurfing on a host university computer account.

i'm still recovering from the tale of the content checker that
*deleted* offending character strings.  ASSOCIATION would become
OCIATION (and then, if the checker is paranoid about government
agencies, into OTION), ASSIST would turn into IST, ASSASSINATE into
INATE, MASSIVE into MIVE, PASSION into PION, etc.

and what if you tried to get around the deletion of the actual word ASS
by using replacements (this is the "intercourse the penguin" strategy)?
  would new improved versions of the checker delete FUNDAMENT (reducing
FUNDAMENTAL to AL) and BUTT (reducing BUTTER to ER and REBUTTAL to
REAL) and all occurrences of the words BEHIND, BOTTOM, and REAR?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 23 18:39:11 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:39:11 -0400
Subject: Kangaroo Court (April 1, 1851)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.143911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I don't know what to make of the April 1st date.  Is this an April fool?  Was the whole thing invented right here with this story?


   1 April 1851, GALVESTON WEEKLY NEWS (Galveston, Texas), pg. 1, col. 4:
      For the "News."
   BACKWOODS SCENES;
      OR
   REMINISCENCES OF EARLY TIMES IN TEXAS.
   BY SYLVESTER SILVERSIGHT
      No. 1
   A "New Comer" in a Tight Place.
(...)
   Some time in the year 1831, or '32,...
(...)
   "Ta'e him down?  Show him the _varmint_!  Yes, by G-d! we'll introduce him tothe _Kangaroo_!" explained the gruff, but, at times jocose old Captain Leathershirt.
   There was much of truth in the remarks of the old Captain, for, on the very next day--all things necessary forthe occasion having been arranged--the young gentleman _was_, in the most formal manner, shown the _varmint_--"introduced to the _Kangaroo_."  So that our readers may understand what was meant by the allusion to the Kangaroo, we will state that the San Felipeans had regularly organized a _mock_ tribunal, called--a very uncouth appellation, by the bye--the "Supreme Kangaroo Court of San Felipe."  It was to this court that young Spindleshanks was introduced.
(...)
   And they _did_ "invistigate the matter," to the utmost extent of the powers vested in the august _Kangaroo Court_.
(...)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 23 20:14:32 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:14:32 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Re: huzzah
In-Reply-To: <200310230823.1acHjl66F3NZFlq0@merlin>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.131432.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Fwd: Re: huzzah
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recently went to a "Renaissance Faire" in NY State
>and neither the costuming or the language seemed
>authentic to my untrained eye/ear. It's interesting to
>hear that the "originals" were more authentic. What's
>the stpory on these things?

My understanding is that Phyllis Patterson, an English teacher,
started the original Renaissance Faire in Southern California a bit
over 30 years ago.  She started The Living History Center to bring,
well, living history to as many people as she could.  She wanted it
to be as historically accurate as possible, taking into consideration
modern hygiene and commercial interests.  Those folks who got
involved had to take classes/workshops in Elizabethan customs,
language, clothing, history, etc.  Every craftsperson could only sell
wares that could conceivably have been made then, and be there to
demonstrate - candlemaking, weaving, blacksmithing, whatever.  You
had to go through costume approval, booth approval, etc. in order to
participate.  Everyone was supposed to know enough to interact
appropriately with the paying customers.

Other, later fairs around the country were "Fantasy Fairs" and as far
as I know, didn't strive for any historical accuracy or knowledge at
all.

Rima


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:01:07 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:01:07 -0500
Subject: cat/catfish
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.200107.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:47 AM -0400 10/23/03, Baker, John wrote:
>Gerald,
>         Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself
>can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one
>way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in
>your article?


There are also quotes for "cat" (= catfish) in DARE. As for "...skin a cat,"
my article on this expression quotes two interesting letters to Dear Abby:

1) "Dear Abby: I think you should know that the 'cat' in the phrase
'There's more than one way to skin a cat' refers not to the furry
feline variety, but to the Mississippi mud variety: catfish.
     "Some types of catfish have a smooth, tough, inedible skin
instead of scales, and, therefore, must be skinned--not scaled like
most other fish.  So if you were to ask any number of catfish
aficionados how to prepare this Southern delicacy before cooking, you
will probably hear a variety of methods, hence the expression
'There's more than one way to skin a cat.'
   [signed]: Another Cat Lover"

2) "Dear Abby: Having grown up in Mississippi, the catfish capital of
America, I can tell you that the expression 'There's more than one
way to skin a cat' has nothing whatsoever to do with skinning a cat.
It means skinning a catfish.
        :Catfish have a tough outer skin instead of scales, and
fishermen have long argued about the most efficient method of
skinning a catfish.  And that, Dear Abby, is how that expression came
about.
        [signed] Jack L. Dveirin, New Orleans"


Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:02:30 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:02:30 -0500
Subject: Chicago Tribune (now 2004)
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.200230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:47 PM -0400 10/22/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>I was at a ProQuest Historical Newspapers demonstration where they asked
>for suggestions for other newspapers to digitize.  I suggested the Boston
>Globe, Philadelphia Inquirer, Baltimore Sun, St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
>Atlanta Constitution, San Francisco Chronicle and Rocky Mountain News (I
>probably should have said New Orleans Times-Picayune as well) among
>current papers, and also said they should do some defunct but historically
>important papers such as New York Herald and New York Tribune.  In case I
>get another chance to make suggestions, are there any others I should push
>for?


San Francisco Bulletin (with varying titles, e.g. The Bulletin). This
newspaper is critical for the early history of the term "jazz." Also:
San Francisco Examiner
Thanks, Fred.

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 24 01:13:24 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:13:24 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.201324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, below my signoff is a message sent to the 19th Century Baseball
discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


>To: 19th Century Egroup <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: Lawrence McCray <mccrayl at bellatlantic.net>
>Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:37:47 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
>
>Folks --
>
>[A] First, Deano Thilgen asked,
>22 Oct 2003 19:15:46 -0500:
>
>"My question is, why was cheerleading associated
>with football early on, and less so with baseball?"
>
>----
>
>[B] Then, via Larry Horn, the American Dialect
>Society, thoughtfully offered:
>
>"My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was
>still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated
>with professional players, and cheerleading is something you do in
>school (high school or college). . . . "
>
>[C] And I now wonder:
>
>Well, sorta, but Williams College wasn't alone in playing
>hardball a long long time ago.
>
>Anyone building a General Theory of Cheerleading might
>want to accommodate these small facts [mostly drawn
>from the politically-incorrect century, admittedly]:
>
>[] Cheerleading is absent from college hockey, I think.
>[] To say nothing of college lawn tennis and college golf.
>[] Routinized cheering is said to be common in Japanese baseball.
>[] Routinized cheering [by the players themselves] is common in
>contemporary school-girl softball, at least in these parts.
>[] In the 1970s, [non-orchestrated] cheering was encouraged
>in the World Team Tennis circuit; but it didn't catch on.
>
>The American Dialect Society's explanation of the utterance
>"Sis - boom - bah" is hereby welcomed.
>
>Larry McCray
>
>--------------------------------------
>mccrayL at bellatlantic.net
>phone (703) 534-2238
>fax     (703) 534-1916
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 24 02:52:27 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: cat/catfish
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bbbe22a06eeb@[131.151.65.182]>
Message-ID: <THU.23.OCT.2003.225227.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:01 PM -0500 10/23/03, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>At 10:47 AM -0400 10/23/03, Baker, John wrote:
>>Gerald,
>>         Although your excerpts make a good case that "cat" by itself
>>can refer to catfish, it's not clear from them that "more than one
>>way to skin a cat" refers to catfish.  Was there something more in
>>your article?
>
>
>There are also quotes for "cat" (= catfish) in DARE. As for "...skin a cat,"
>my article on this expression quotes two interesting letters to Dear Abby:

Yes, Jerry, but I'm sure you're not advocating that we take these as
constituting evidence for your claim, any more than the thousands of
similar letters and e-mails circulated on any one of a number of
etymythological legends, from spirit and image to the Infanta de
Castile.  I'm not saying that's what we have here, I'm just saying
(as I assume John is above) that it would be nice to have some direct
evidence from the first cites of "skin a cat" on just what sort of
cat was involved.

larry

>
>1) "Dear Abby: I think you should know that the 'cat' in the phrase
>'There's more than one way to skin a cat' refers not to the furry
>feline variety, but to the Mississippi mud variety: catfish.
>     "Some types of catfish have a smooth, tough, inedible skin
>instead of scales, and, therefore, must be skinned--not scaled like
>most other fish.  So if you were to ask any number of catfish
>aficionados how to prepare this Southern delicacy before cooking, you
>will probably hear a variety of methods, hence the expression
>'There's more than one way to skin a cat.'
>   [signed]: Another Cat Lover"
>
>2) "Dear Abby: Having grown up in Mississippi, the catfish capital of
>America, I can tell you that the expression 'There's more than one
>way to skin a cat' has nothing whatsoever to do with skinning a cat.
>It means skinning a catfish.
>        :Catfish have a tough outer skin instead of scales, and
>fishermen have long argued about the most efficient method of
>skinning a catfish.  And that, Dear Abby, is how that expression came
>about.
>        [signed] Jack L. Dveirin, New Orleans"
>
>
>Gerald Cohen


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Fri Oct 24 04:54:58 2003
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:54:58 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Three Times Three a Tiger ?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.005458.0400.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

Larry Horn wrote:
<<My guess is that football originated as, and for a long time was still primarily, a college sport, while baseball is mostly associated with professional players...I think that's the key difference rather than anything intrinsic to the sports themselves, although the opposite position could be defended, no doubt.>>

Basketball and football are not the only school sports, but they are the ones with cheerleading.  They generate mass enthusiasm and audiences, while individual sports--and baseball--are less effective representatives of collegial spirit.  Every football and basketball season  has pep rallies and a "Homecoming" game, but homecoming baseball games are as rare as homecoming gymnastics meets.

Cheerleading goes with football and basketball but not with baseball because, although baseball is a team effort, it has much of the character of individual sports.  Play in baseball follows the ball back and forth between defense and offense in a sequence of individual actions, while the fact of "possession" in football and basketball leads to concerted team efforts that represent school unity, which can in turn be expressed in mass cheers ("Block that kick!").  In the etiquette of individual sports, cheering on the play is regarded as ludicrous and even rude.  While pretty girls in tight sweaters are always welcome, cheers in baseball would be as silly as for tennis ("Break that serve"?) or fencing ("parry that riposte"?).  

Se?n Fitzpatrick


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 24 05:51:48 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:51:48 EDT
Subject: Candy Corn
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.015148.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Candy corn" is not mentioned at all in that great American classic, John
F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
  "Candy corn" is available all over this Halloween season, as usual.  There
are 47,000 Google hits.  There's no mystery about "candy corn."  ProQuest and
Ancestry don't add anything to what you can get off Google.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.hauntedbay.com/history/candycorn.shtml
For those of us over the age of 25, when you think of Halloween candy
you think of candy corn, those sugary little spikes of Halloween cheer.
  They've been around for as long as I remember and even as long as my
 grandparents remember but did you know that they were invented in the
 1880's? Who the first person to make these tasty treats was is unknown
  but the Wunderle Candy Company of Philadelphia was the first to go into
    commercial production. However, the company most closely associated with
       this wonderful confection is the Goelitz Confectionery Company.
Founder         Gustav Goelitz, a German immigrant, began commercial production of
the         treat in 1898 in Cincinnati and is today the oldest manufacturer of
the         Halloween icon.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.germanheritage.com/biographies/atol/goelitz.html
The Goelitz Family: Candy Corn & Jelly Belly

The Early Years

          Shortly after the Civil War, two young brothers came to America
from their                              family home in the Harz Mountain region
of Germany. There were thousands like them, part of the huge wave of European
immigration that began in the 1830s and would well into the 20th century.

                             Gustav Goelitz and his younger brother Albert
traveled to Illinois to join an uncle who had emigrated in 1834. Within two
years, Gustav, 24 and Albert,                      21 opened a candy making
business in a Belleville, Illinois storefront. Gustav made the candy and handled
store operations. Albert sold the candy to the surrounding, towns
             and villages from a horsedrawn wagon. The business did well,
they raised families and opened additional plants. In time, Gustav's sons worked
in the business learning the trade.

    But economic upheaval intervened when the Panic of 1893,
one of the worst depressions in American history, plagued the country for the
next four years. Paper money was double the value of the gold backing it.
Widespread unemployment, falling                  prices and labor unrest
affected the Goelitz Brothers Candy Co. as it did thousands of businesses. Gustav and
Albert were forced to assign assets to creditors and sell the business.
Albert                  stayed on the road selling candy for another company until
his death at the age of 80. Gustav never recovered. He died in 1901, a week
short of his 56th birthday.

                 That was only the beginning. In 1898, Gustav's sons
continued the family tradition and established the candy making company we honor and
celebrate today. For the following                  generations of the Goelitz
family and their partners and in-laws, the Kelleys, making the highest quality
candy is a tradition

The Second Generation: Candy Corn Fame

                      The two eldest sons of Gustav had worked in their
father's candy business,                  then set out on their own. Adolph opened
a Cincinnati based candy company with the help of his friend and neighbor
William Kelley. Soon his brothers, Gus Jr. and Herman, would join him there. In
1901 they hired  Will Kelley's cousin, Edward Kelley, as a bookkeeper. Ed fell
in love with one of the Goelitz sisters, Joanna, and married her, formally
joining the Goelitz and Kelley clans into a family partnership. These family
members    would build the company beyond the wildest dreams of the previous
generation.

The turn of the last century was a good time for the candy business. Over a
thousand candy                  manufacturers in the country employed an
estimated 27,000 workers. Goelitz Confectionery Co. was one which prospered. By
1912, the company was turning away orders for lack of production capacity.


                                A factory town along the north shores of Lake
Michigan offering rail service and                  affordable land was
selected for a new plant. The move to North Chicago was a good one. When the income
tax was introduced in 1913, it forced many mom-and-pop candy makers to keep
business. Many failed, but Goelitz was                  already firmly
established. Butter creams, later known as mellocremes, were the primary products of
the company. While licorice, chocolates and peppermints were also
   available, butter creams kept the business growing for the next five
decades. The single best seller? Candy Corn.

According to tradition, candy corn was invented in the 1880s. Company records
show Goelitz    making candy corn by 1900.

They turned it into a runaway success, and became known for the finest candy
corn on the market.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Oct 24 06:23:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 02:23:07 EDT
Subject: Pit Beef
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.022307.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Pit beef" is not in Dare and not in John F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
   Last post before ten hours of parking tickets. I feel sick right now.


(PROQUEEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      THE NATION
    New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 19, 1940.
                 p. 68 (1 page):
   Impressive were the statistics of the feast, held just outside the
stadium's wall after the oath-taking was over.  In a great pit beeves were roasted so
the crowd could watch.
(At LSU, in Baton Rouge--ed.)

      MARYLAND DINING
       Kristin Eddy.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).
Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1988.      p. MD12 (1 page):
   _The Canopy_, 9319 Baltimore National Pike,...  Barbecue sandwiches are
the specialty of the house: shredded open pit beef or chicken, or slices of
barbecue beef cooked to order.


      Baltimore
       By MELINDA HENNEBERGER.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).
  New York, N.Y.: Jul 9, 1995.                   p. XX10 (1 page):
   Stop in Federal Hill for a pit beef sandwich, a local version of barbecue,
(Illegible word.  "Cooked"?--ed.) and served by street vendors,...


      How to Say Barbecue in Baltimore
       STEVEN RAICHLEN.  New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York,
N.Y.: Jun 28, 2000.    p. F5 (1 page):
   I SPENT the first 18 years of my life in Baltimore, and not once did I eat
pit beef.  I am not particularly proud of this fact, but it does reflect the
parochialism of the region's food.  I grew up in the suburb of Pikesville,
Md., and the foods of my childhood embraced the four C's of Baltimore gastronomy:
crab, corned beef, coddies (leaden cakes of catfish and potatoes) and
chocolate tops (cookies crowned with a rosette of chocolate icing).
   Pit beef came from a working-class neighborhood on the east side of town,
whcih for me might as well have been another planet.
   Pit beef is Baltimore's version of barbecue beef grilled crusty on the
outside, rare and juicy inside and heaped high on a sandwich.  Several things
make it distinctive in the realm of American barbecue.
   For starters, pit beef is grilled, not smoked, so it lacks the heavy
hickory or mesquite flavor characteristic of Texas- or Kansas-city-style barbecue.
it is also ideally served rare, which would be unthinkable for a Texas-style
brisket.  Baltimore pit bosses use top round, not brisket, and to make this
flavorful but tough cut of beef tender, they shave it paper-thin on a meat
slicer.
   Then there's the bread, the proper way to serve pit beef is on a kaiser
roll or, more distinctively, on rye bread.  The caraway seeds in the rye reflect
the Eastern European ancestry of many Baltimoreans in this part of town and
add an aromatic, earthy flavor to the beef.
   Finally, there is the sauce.  No ketchup, brown sugar and liquid smoke, as
you would find in Kansas City.  No Texas-style chili hellfire or piquant
vinegar sauces in the style of North Carolina.  The proper condiment for baltimore
pit beef is horseradish sauce--as much as you can bear without crying.  And
speaking or crying, you need slices of crisp, pungent white onion to make the
sandwich complete.
   The center of Baltimore pit beef is an industrial thoroughfare called
Pulaski Highway, also known as Route 40.  As you drive east out of the city, you
pass truck stops, tractor dealerships and inexpensive motels.  Nestled among
them are the simple roadside eateries that purvey pit beef.


(ANCESTRY)
   22 August 1958, NEWS (Frederick, Maryland), pg.7?, col. 7:
   Pit Beef barbecue under the supervision of Walter A. Simpson.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 24 17:01:17 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:01:17 -0400
Subject: Three Times Three a Tiger?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.130117.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green writes, concerning Three Times Three a Tiger: FWIW I offer this proposed etymology, culled from the Bulletin  (Sydney,Australia).
1900 Bulletin (Sydney) 30 Jun. Red Page/2:  Tradition and custom hold that the ?tiger? is a howl which accentuates the cheers and intensifies the applause.  The best of several ?origins? tells how, early in this century, an American politician, S.S. Prentiss, was stumping the country, and came to a town where there was a small menagerie on exhibition.  This he hired for a day and threw it open to all-comers, availing himself of the occasion to make a political speech.  The orator, holding a 10ft. pole, stood on the tiger?s cage, in the roof of which there was a hole, and whenever the multitudes applauded one of his ?points? with three cheers, Prentiss poked the tiger, who uttered a harsh roar. From this 'three cheers and a tiger' spread over the country.

The politician in question is evidently Seargent Smith Prentiss, a congressman from Mississippi in the early 19th C.  There is an article on him in the Dictionary of National Biography, but not in the more recent American National Biography.  He should also be in the Biographical Directory of the American Congress, which, at the moment, isn't available to me.
The following books might authenticate this story:

The life and times of Seargent Smith Prentiss, by Joseph D. Shields. -- Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott, 1883.
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Shields, J. D. Life and times of Seargent Smith Prentiss)

Prentiss, George L., 1816-1903.  A memoir of S.S. Prentiss, Edited by his brother. New York : C. Scribner's sons, [c1855]  2 v.
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Prentiss, G. L. Memoir of S. S. Prentiss)

Seargent S. Prentiss, Whig orator of the old South, by Dallas C.  Dickey. Baton Rouge, La., Louisiana state university press, 1945.  422 p.   (Southern biography series)
NYPG   AN (Prentiss) (Dickey, D. C. Seargent S. Prentiss)

None of them are at Bobst, which is this instance fails to show itself as one of the great libraries south of 14th street.  All are at the NYPL and I will look at them there some one of these days, unless Barry beats me to it.

I will say that it was not uncommon for menageries with exotic animals to travel the country in Prentiss's day, so that the idea that there should be a caged tiger in the back-woods of Mississippi isn't impossible.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA  Fri Oct 24 23:14:42 2003
From: PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA (Pamela Medland)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:14:42 -0700
Subject: Do you know the origin?
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.161442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good afternoon.
Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "the civilized hours?" This
was submitted as a query to the National Library of Canada on behalf of
a patron of my library, but the reference staff at NLC were unable to
locate the source of the phrase. They suggested I post this query on the
listserve. Please reply directly to me at pmedland at virl.bc.ca if you can
assist.
Thank you for your consideration,
Pam Medland


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 24 23:59:33 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 19:59:33 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college(1897)
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.195933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ancestry strikes again.  Barry, of course, has dibs on the origin of "hot
dog" from college slang in 1895.

But I found a non-college(I think) cite from the Middletown(NY) Daily Argus,
May 27, 1897.  page (not readable), col. 4.

<"Jakey" Newmark, proprietor the the portable lunch business which has been
a familiar landmark on East Main street the past year or so, received all
sorts of consolation, Tuesday night, from the bicycle boys who frequent his
place.  "Jakey" says he didn't pay the $100 license imposed by the Common
Council because he was advised not to do so by an official high in authority
at that time.  "Jakey's" opponents are restaurant men, who claim that men
frequent the "hot dog wagon" who formerly patronized them, and a consequent
falling off in their business has resulted.  That "Jakey" should pay a
good-sized license if allowed to use the highway is the sense of most
Middletowners.>

I asked Gerald Cohen if this was early for a non-college cite, and his reply
is reproduced below.  Evidently it is the first non-college usage.

SC


From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at umr.edu>
To: "Sam Clements" <sclements at neo.rr.com>
Cc: <Bapopik at aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: "hot dog wagon" (1897)


> Sam,
>    This looks significant. The earliest evidence I have thus far for "hot
dog" outside of a college context is 1898 (in the Hull Beacon newspaper of
Nantasket Beach)--article by Dennis R. Means in Comments on Etymology, April
1998, pp. 2-4.  Your 1897 attestation antedates this by a year.
>
> Best. --- Jerry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sat Oct 25 00:18:31 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:18:31 -0400
Subject: cat/catfish
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.201831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Further on skinning cats:  Making of America has this passage from page 166 of "'Way down East; or, Portraitures of Yankee life," by Seba Smith (1792 - 1868), with a date of "c1854":

        >>This is a money digging world of ours; and, as it is said, "there are more ways than one to skin a cat," so are there more ways than one of digging for money.<<

        New England ("down East") is not generally associated with the kind of catfish that have to be skinned.  Unless earlier citations from catfish country can be produced, then, it is probable that the phrase refers to skinning our familiar mammalian cats, even though, as Jerry points out, catfish do require skinning and regular cats do not.

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 01:11:38 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:11:38 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college(1897)
In-Reply-To: <001501c39a8a$e0421f60$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.211138.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Sam Clements wrote:

> Ancestry strikes again.  Barry, of course, has dibs on the origin of "hot
> dog" from college slang in 1895.
>
> But I found a non-college(I think) cite from the Middletown(NY) Daily Argus,
> May 27, 1897.  page (not readable), col. 4.

When I search ProQuest I get the following:

1896 _Wash. Post_ 13 Feb. 6  One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine
Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their
alleged grievances.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 01:37:31 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:37:31 -0400
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242103100.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.213731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.

1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 02:17:03 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:17:03 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "Frankfurter"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242128101.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.221703.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

frankfurter (OED 1894)

[1879 _National Police Gazette_ 6 Dec. 14  You have doubtless heard about
the inexperienced husband who came home at the milkman's hour deathly
sick, and who, upon being interrogated by his wife, owned up to sixty
beers during the night, and laid the sickness to one Frankfurter sausage.
They always _did_ disagree with him.]

1885 _New York's Great Industries_ 264  Albert Peiser, Curator of Choice
Beef, No. 1361 Third Avenue. -- A house exclusively devoted to the curing
of the best and choicest cuts of beef, etc., is that of Mr. Albert Peiser,
who established this enterprise in 1880.  He deals extensively in smoked
and pickled tongues, briskets, Frankfurters, Viennas, bolognas, boulard
and cervelat.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Oct 25 03:03:45 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 23:03:45 -0400
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310242128101.21912-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.24.OCT.2003.230345.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 09:37 PM 10/24/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
>Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
>'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
>mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
>"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
>a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.
>
>1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
>Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
>advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
>If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
>Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
>shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
>cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
>to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
>never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
>(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
>idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.

It MAY imply "dogs" = "sausages", but maybe not.

Imagine the same joke with "sausage shop" replaced with "chow mein shop"
for example, in which case it would be read to imply (yuk, yuk)  that dogs
would be in supply at such a shop, presumably for inclusion in the cuisine
(without implying that the chow mein was named or called "dog[s]"). The
passage as given above may imply only that dogs were considered a likely
component of sausages ... and they were so considered, in that epoch and
since -- humorously and otherwise.

"We don't deal in dogs" tends to favor the possibility of "dogs" =
"sausages" but "Martini never left his dog ..." tends to contradict it
IMHO. Furthermore I believe "deal in dogs" could be read as "buy dogs"
(with or without "sell dogs").

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Oct 25 14:26:34 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:26:34 -0400
Subject: Saying About Translation
In-Reply-To: <143.1a168475.2cbbac09@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.102634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a proverbial saying that translations are like wives (or women),
they are either beautiful or faithful.  Can anyone help me trace early
examples of this?  I have misplaced my copy of David Crystal, _Words on
Words_; if someone has this handy, perhaps Crystal sheds some light on
this question.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Sat Oct 25 14:55:34 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:55:34 +0100
Subject: Saying About Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.155534.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'Translations, like wives, are seldom faithful if they are in the least
attractive.'
Roy Campbell. Poetry Review (June/July 1949)


Jonathon Green


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 16:28:50 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 11:28:50 -0500
Subject: "Hot Dog" in 1872?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.112850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   My thanks to the ads-l researchers who are ferreting out early
attestations of "hot dog." I'll include these items (with due credit)
in the "hot dog" bibliography I'm currently compiling.

   Meanwhile, the material needs to be examined to see just what it tells us.

   I'll start with the following item:

    At 9:37 PM -0400 10/24/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Subject:      "Hot Dog" in 1872?
>
>All right, get a load of this article found through American Periodical
>Series.  I can't believe this is really a usage of _hot dog_
>'frankfurter,' but the words "This is no sausage shop" could be read to
>mean that the speaker is referring to a "cold dog" or "hot dog" or
>"lukewarm dog" as a sausage.  At the least this could be considered to be
>a usage of _dog_ 'sausage'.
>
>1872 _Saturday Evening Post_ 27 July 8
>Organist (angrily) -- I called to get Martini's Ecole d'Orgue.  I see it
>advertised, and I want it.  Now, have you got that Ecole d'Orgue or not?
>If you have, run it out, for I'm in a hurry.
>Salesman -- You must take me for a fool, don't you?  This is no sausage
>shop.  This is a music store.  What do you suppose we know about Martini's
>cold dog, or his hot dog, or his lukewarm dog, or any other dog belonging
>to any other man?  You must be crazy.  We don't deal in dogs.  Martini
>never left his dog around here anywhere.  Why, you talk like a --
>(suddenly calling to his fellow clerk) -- I say John here's a demented old
>idiot in here wanting to buy some kind of an Italian cold dog.
>
>Fred Shapiro

   IMHO, we do not deal here with an early usage of "dog" (= sausage)
but rather with the popular 19th century belief that dog-meat turns
up at least occasionally in sausages. In other words, there's no
evidence prior to college slang of 1895 of anyone eating a sausage
and referring to it as a "dog" or "hot dog."

  French Ecole d'Orgue (Organ School) of course sounds roughly like
English A [rhymes with MAY} COL[D] DOG. So when the non-French
speaking music salesman hears that the customer wants A COLD DOG, he
obviously thinks of a dead dog soon to be turned into sausages. Hence
the salesman's indignant: "This is no sausage shop. This is a music
store....You must be crazy..."  This doesn't make for an early
attestation of "dog" (= sausage); it constitutes only one more piece
of evidence (in an already considerable collection) of dogs being
viewed as about to be turned into sausages.

    Here are a few more illustrations taken from Barry Popik's research:

1844 -- Boston Post, Oct. 30, 1844, p. 2, col. 2:
        'Dog cheap -- Sausages at six cents a pound.'

1846 -- New York Globe, Aug. 22, 1846, p. 2, col. 4:
        '"Hog or dog! -- that's the question," as the fellow said
when he sat     down to a dish of fried sausages.'

Gerald Cohen

P.S. The more I read the Ecole d'Orgue joke, the more I appreciate it.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Oct 25 18:59:08 2003
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:59:08 -0400
Subject: Do you know the origin?
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.145908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Definition 2 in OED2 adequately covers the sense of _civilized hour(s)_.
The first citation from OED2 is from 1654.  However, the earliest quote if
have found so far for "civilized hour" is from The New York Times (Aug. 4,
1929):

"The afternoon concerts begin at 6, the evening concerts at 10.  One has
dinner at the highly civilized hour of 1 A.M. or thereabout, after the
concert."

I suspect that there are examples out there from earlier dates.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Pamela Medland <PMedland at VIRL.BC.CA>
>Subject:      Do you know the origin?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Good afternoon.
>Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "the civilized hours?" This
>was submitted as a query to the National Library of Canada on behalf of
>a patron of my library, but the reference staff at NLC were unable to
>locate the source of the phrase. They suggested I post this query on the
>listserve. Please reply directly to me at pmedland at virl.bc.ca if you can
>assist.
>Thank you for your consideration,
>Pam Medland
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 21:40:10 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:40:10 -0500
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.164010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:11 PM -0400 10/24/03, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>When I search ProQuest I get the following:
>
>1896 _Wash. Post_ 13 Feb. 6  One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine
>Ridge and over a large number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their
>alleged grievances.


Somewhere in my pile of "hot dog" notes is a cartoon which conveys
the idea that Indians eat dogs. The 1896 Washington Post item quoted
just above looks very much like a joke (rather than a bona fide news
item). And "hot dogs" here almost certainly refers to cooked canines
rather than to sausages.

   Feb. 6, 1896 is about 5 months after the first attestations of "hot
dog"appeared (at Yale, Oct. 19, 1895; discovered by Barry Popik), so
there was sufficient time for this new term to spread among humorists
and make its way into the above Washington-Post joke.

     This joke has two important elements:

1) It employs a very new, irreverent, slang item ("hot dog") and is
therefore lexically up-to-date, hip.

2) The presence of Indians notifies the reader that "hot dog" is here
to be understood literally.

   The joke is therefore doubly irreverent: 1) towards the eating
habits of Indians, 2) towards purists in the use of language (the
witty and gross neologism "hot dog" = hot sausage).

    This is all very un-PC. But such was humor in those unenlightened times.

    So, does this 1896 quote provide the first attestation of "hot
dog" outside a college context? That's hard to answer. We deal
primarily with the meaning "cooked canine" and an underlying bit of
college humor ("hot dog" = hot sausage). I prefer to set this example
aside in the search for the earliest non-college attestation of "hot
dog" and instead give the honors to one in which "hot dog"
unambiguously refers to hot sausages. But I understand how others
might decide differently, and I'll include the above attestation in
the upcoming compilation of "hot dog" material.

Gerald Cohen


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Oct 25 22:47:15 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:47:15 -0400
Subject: Ice Cream(Cone) 1904-almost
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.184715.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As another piece of the puzzle, I found further evidence about the cone
being at first a "waffle," only this attestation, in addition to tracing it
to the 1904 Worlds Fair, comes from a contemporary account in 1904.

>From Ancestry.com, Washington Post(DC), September 4, 1904, page 5, col. 3,
in a Sunday article on the Fair:

<NEW DAINTIES TO EAT>

<One of the latest innovations which is extremely popular is the idea of
selling ice cream encased in a funnel-shaped waffle of delicious taste.  The
novelty of the idea, the delicacy of the article, all add to the popularity
of this combination of ice cream and cake.>

To me this kind of story,  which was written while the fair was still
occurring?, speaks so matter-of-factly about eating ice cream out of such a
cone, that it would put the kibosh on those who claim that it was a
spur-of-the-moment invention from vendors at the fair.

I found the above cite while looking for "Cotton Candy."  The article also
tells about what we(in the US) know as Cotton Candy today, but calls it
"candy cotton."   The archives show that Barry found a 1905 cite for the
"Cotton Candy Machine Co." in the trademark list.

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 25 23:05:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:05:20 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.190520.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?

CANDY CORN (continued)--Not in OED, of course.  There are even generic "candy corn," but according to the latest information just published in "America's finest news source," THE ONION, generic candy corn will give you AIDS!

http://www.theonion.com/3941/opinion1.html
Once again, Halloween season is upon us, and with it, the wonderful anticipation of dressing up and trick-or-treating for delicious Brach's candy. With that in mind,  it's important to remember all the ways that you can make your Halloween safer and more fun. It won't put a damper on anyone's holiday spirits to wear high-visibility costumes when going from house to house, to have kids trick-or-treat with an adult, and to inspect all candy for tampering. Perhaps most importantly, keep in mind that eating just a single kernel of candy corn manufactured by a company other than Brach's Confections will give you a deadly case of full-blown AIDS.

PIT BEEF--I checked the Baltimore Yellow Pages for 1980.  Pg. 637, col. 3:
GUIDE  Restaurants Grouped by Cuisine...
   BARBECUE
TEXS PIT BAR-B-QUE
Ribs--Beef--Sausage--Chicken--
Hame Eat In Or Carry Out
Full Bar Service--Charge Cards
   518 N RitchleHwy GlenBurnle...761-7900
WOODY'S INN
Open Fire--Hickory Cooked Barbeque
   8228 Pulaski Hwy...687-9713
(That's it!  Everything!--ed.)

OT:  MY LIFE IS OFFICIALLY A JOKE--Found under my door:
October 21, 2003
Dear Residents:
Please be aware that we will be filming a new (as yet untitled) Comedy Central program in and around 225 East 57th Street on November 1st through November 4th.  The majority of filming will take place in one of the building apartments, though we will need to film the entrance of the building a bit. (...)
Joe De Vito
Production Manager, Comedy Central

(I knew I shouldn't have told them that I killed Kenny...I don't quite think they'll use my apartment for an episode of THE MAN SHOW...If they need a title, maybe they should go with WRETCHED LITTLE CRAMPED APARTMENT OF THE MOST PATHETIC MAN ON EARTH--ed.)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Oct 25 23:07:54 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:07:54 -0500
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.180754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:05 PM -0400 10/25/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Subject:      Re: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
>
>    I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?


Sorry, below my signoff is Barry's full message once more.

Gerald Cohen



>  Date:         Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:07:29 -0500
>  Reply-To:     American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  Sender:       American Dialect Society Mailing List <ADS-L at uga.cc.uga.edu>
>  Comments:     cc: ASMITH1946 at aol.com
>  From:         Bapopik at AOL.COM
>  Subject:      Missouri-Show Me (9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST)
>  Comments: To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>      Greetings from the Library of Congress.  They don't officially
>subscribe yet, but I have FULL TEXT TO THE WASHINGTON POST.  Send
>your queries now.
>
>  HOT DOG
>     13 February 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 6:
>     One thousand Sioux warriors met at Pine Ridge and over a large
>number of cold bottles and hot dogs discussed their alleged
>grievances.
>  (Whew!  That's close!--ed.)
>
>  WINDY CITY
>     13 July 1887, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2.
>  (Not close--ed.)
>
>  BIG APPLE
>     20 September 1924, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
>     SPOT CASH a two-time winner around the big apple...
>  (A horse-racing column.  Fitz Gerald's brother wrote for the
>WASHINGTON POST.  Pretty darn close--ed.)
>
>  MISSOURI--SHOW ME
>     9 May 1897, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 27:
>        _HE NEVER SAW A TUNNEL._
>  _So the Man from Missouri Leaped Headlong from a Train._
>  From the Philadelphia Times.
>     "I'm from Missouri, and they'll have to show me."
>     That is what John Duffer, of Pike County, Missouri, remarked as
>he was being patched up in the office of Dr. Creighton at Manitou.
>
>  (Cut about seven paragraphs to end of story.  I believe this
>article is our earliest and pre-dates the Trans-Mississippi
>Exposition in Omaha and the song, both in 1897--ed.)
>
>     "When the train went into that hole I thought we'd never see
>daylight again, and my only chance was to jump, and so I jumped.
>I'm from Missouri, and you'll have to show me!"
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Oct 25 23:19:20 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:19:20 -0400
Subject: Slugburger (1989)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.191920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 ? ?  "Slugburger" is not in that great work known as (you know the rest by now) John F. Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).
 ? ?  DARE ends at P-Sk.?  Whatcha got?
    I looked in the Corinth (Mississippi) Yellow Pages under "Restaurants," but failed to find a "slugburger" in even a mid-1990s directory.  But it dates from 1918??
 ? ? ? ? ?
 SLUGBURGER--124 Google hits
 SLUG BURGER--21 Google hits
 ?
(GOOGLE)
 http://www.ouraaa.com/traveler/0107/festivals_for.html
 What???s a slugburger?

 Before heading to the 14th annual Slugburger Festival, July 12-14 in Corinth, Miss., you might want to know that slugburgers are not made from the terrestrial gastropod mollusk of the same name.

 According to the ???Gourmand???s Guide to Dining in and Around Corinth,??? a slugburger is ???a burger made of a mixture of beef and some form of cheaper breading extender, which is then deep-fat fried to a golden brown instead of grilled as a common hamburger.??? In the past, cornmeal was the most common extender and lard was used for frying; today, soybean meal is the extender of choice and vegetable oil is used for frying.
 ?
 (PHOTO CAPTION: The Slugburger fesdtival in Corinth, Miss, may not have an appetizing name, but the centerpiece of the celebration is delicious. It's a burger made of beef and breading and then deep fried. /Mississippi Tourism photo    )
 ?
 ???The standard garnish for a slugburger is mustard, pickle and an ample dose of onions. Good manners requires everyone to partake at the same time so that afterward everyone???s breath is equally offensive,??? the guide stated.

 The origin of the slugburger name is a matter of local debate. For many years, slugburgers were sold for a nickel and a slang expression for a nickel was a slug, hence the most common explanation for the name. Another popular explanation is that if you overindulge, you might feel as though someone slugged you in the stomach.

 Other featured foods include funnel cakes and fried green tomatoes.

 The Slugburger Festival is the major fundraiser for the Main Street Corinth downtown revitalization program. The Alcorn County Courthouse will be the site of the carnival, local entertainment and food vendors, while the celebrity headliners will perform on the nearby main stage.

 For more information, call (662) 287-1550, 1-877-347-0545 or visit www.slugburger.com online.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      SLUGBURGER FESTIVAL WILL BEGIN THURSDAY
              Times - Picayune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       New Orleans, La.: Jul 14, 1992.                   p. B.2:


      Celebration pays tribute to city's tasty slugburger
              Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Houston, Tex.: Jun 4, 1989.                   p. 34:
    CORINTH, Miss. - The poor man's hamburger will be honored with the Second Annual Downtown Corinth Slugburger Festival.

    The celebration pays tribute to Corinth's favorite delicacy, the slug, a deep-fried patty made from a soybean and meat mixture. A slugburger is most often served with onion, pickle and mustard.

    Last year, locals traced the history of the slugburger as far as 1918. That was the year meat market owner William R. McEwen and restaurant proprietor John Weeks devised a recipe to use unsaleable meat trimmings.

    Some of the athletic events scheduled last year were the slug-on-a-spatula relay, the slug squash, the slug-toss, the build-a-slug scavenger hunt and the slugburger eating contest. Most of the events had to be canceled because of lack of interest.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 00:00:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:00:40 -0400
Subject: Pitchfork Fondue (1988)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.200040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PITCHFORK FONDUE--733 Google hits
 ?  There are only 17 Google Groups hits, from 23 April 1997. ? It's somewhat new, but catching on fast.
 ?  I checked the Yellow Pages of the Bismarck (North Dakota) telephone book, but I couldn't find a restaurant serving this in the mid-1990s.
 ?  Is it from North Dakota? ? South Dakota? ? Montana? ? Wyoming? ? Saskatchewan?
 ?  ?  ?
 ?
(GOOGLE)
http://www.pitchforkfondue.com/story.htm
In ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? the 1960s beef fondue for dinner was a treat our family enjoyed. Small ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? chunks of beef were cooked on forks then dipped in "fondue sauces" ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? before eating. The only problem with this procedure was the time it ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? took to cook the meat, and the length of time you had to wait between ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? bites while the others cooked their meat. One evening Darrell commented ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? " Someday I am going to figure out a way to have beef fondue without ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? starving"! And many years later, he did!
 ?
Darrell ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? decided to look for a large cast iron cauldron to use for a "fondue ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? pot", thinking a pitchfork would be ideal to thread the steaks onto ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? the tines for cooking. Ironically, the first cauldron came from our ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Aunt Helen at the Big Trails Ranch near Tensleep, Wyoming. Uncle Jack ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? had bought her a "pot" at an auction-to plant geraniums in!! Darrell ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? later found another cauldron on the farm of our sister-in-law, Kay, ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? in Nebraska, which had belonged to her father.
 ?
In ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? the mid-eighties, Darrell and Verna began catering "Pitchfork Fondue" ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? for an occasional wedding reception, Fourth of July celebration or ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? family reunion. Then requests came from organizations across Wyoming, ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? and later from regional and national groups having meetings here in ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? the Equality State. One that we remember well, was a dinner for members ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? of the Wyoming Legislature hosted by the Wyoming Association of Conservation ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Districts in Cheyenne, Wy. in a blizzard in January. Outdoor cooking ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? was intended for nicer weather!
 ?
Another ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? was for the Western Regional Deans of Agriculture and Directors of ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Extension for seventeen states including Alaska, Hawaii and the territory ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? of Guam, at the University of Wyoming Research Center in Grand Teton ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? National Park, in August. They presented Darrell with a formal resolution ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? commending him for a gastronomical dinner and his hospitality.

It ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? was on a camping trip in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming that ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Darrell, our oldest son, Jay, and friend, Dennis Baker of Iowa began ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? talking about establishing Pitchfork Fondue as a seasonal business ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? in a permanent location. Later Darrell felt that God showed him Jackson ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Hole was the place to begin. In the summer of 1997, a corporation ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? was formed and Pitchfork Fondue was set up on a working cattle ranch ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? outside of Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
 ?
Guests ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? came from near and far to savor juicy tender steaks cooked in just ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? minutes on the tines of a pitchfork, accompanied by our family's favorite ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? fondue sauces. Another specialty, hot homemade potato chips, were ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? devoured with gusto. Fresh fruit salad, crisp lettuce salad, rolls,beverages ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? and homemade brownies and lemon bars complemented the meat and potatoes.
 ?
In ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? the spring of 2000, Pitchfork Fondue moved to Pinedale, Wy. and is ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? now located at the Pinedale Rodeo Grounds, one-eighth mile south of ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? town. This site is also the location of the world famous Green River ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Rendezvous and the Rendezvous Rodeo held annually the 2nd weekend ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? in July

 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
(GOOGLE)
http://www.mervspitchforkfondue.com/
Howdy! ?  ? My name is Merv Brandt and I???d like to introduce you to Saskatchewan???s exciting new concept in catering ... ???Merv???s Pitchfork Fondue???!
 ?
 ? While traveling in the northern part of the province in the spring of 1991 I came across a small hotel that offered a ???pitchfork fondue???. Well I had to try this out. I enjoyed the meal and was so intrigued by the concept that I decided to modify the idea and literally take it on the road. I spent a whole year developing the ? traveling forty gallon cast iron cooker and searching out generations old recipes. I???m a Regina boy, and still do a bit of farming, so I know what it takes to please a prairie appetite.?  ? ? ?
 ?
 ?
(GOOGLE)
http://www.buffalochip.com/fondue.html
PITCHFORK FONDUE We know this is going to come as a shock to you, but many of the folks who work at the Chip wear chaps of a different variety when you're not here. Folks who work in fields and on prairies don't leave the table hungry. ? If they do, you didn't cook enough. ? From branding parties, Barbecues, cookouts, campouts and backyards comes the fine-tuned outdoor phenomenon of Pitchfork Fondue.

 From a bunch of high plains South Dakota comes some cowboy chefs who take a big old slab of prime ranch-raised Dakota buffalo steak, poke it on the end of a pitchfork, then sear it in a custom-made tank full of specially blended savory oils known only to them. ? The searing seals in the meat's juices and keeps the oils outside. It is unbelievable. ? You can't find a more tender steak anywhere!
 ?
 ?
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? Clinton Tries To Recapture '92 Campaign
 ?  ?  ?  By TODD S. PURDUM. ?  ?  ?  New York Times ? (1857-Current file). ?  ?  ?  New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1995. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. A1 (2 pages):
 ?  BILLINGS, Mont., June 1--(...) At the 7,000-acre wheat ranch of Les Auer, where President Clinton paused outside this central Montana city for a noontime chat and a lunch of "pitchfork fondue" and Rocky Mountain oysters with local politicians, farmers and cattlemen, his motorcade froze the narrow road solid and a security helicopter swept across the Big Sky overhead.
 ?
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? BARBECUE BATTLE RAGES OVER WHICH MEAT AND SAUCE ARE BEST
 ?  ?  ?  Eleanor Ostman, Knight-Ridder Newspapers. ?  ?  ?  Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). ?  ?  ?  Chicago, Ill.: Jul 21, 1988. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. 9.D ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
(...)
Ellis says there is a form of barbecue in California known as Santa Maria-style. "It goes back to round-ups in the Mexican days when they'd take three-inch-thick slabs of top sirloin, thread them on iron skewers and turn them over red oak coals. "Yet today, the meat is sliced thin and served on bread with a local variety of pinto beans on the side," Ellis said.

I was in the Black Hills recently, and a motel owner told me about a cowboy diner famous for its sirloin tips. They're not smothered in gravy; South Dakota sirloin tips are deep-fried. Ellis knows why: "They call it pitchfork fondue, and the meat is often fried in beef suet. They know the fat is hot enough when a match dropped into it ignites. The technique dates back to the covered wagon days when suet was kept in a black iron kettle. After being used for cooking, it would solidify and they'd hang the pot on the wagon to take to the next campfire."
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? MAKING MOST OF NORTH DAKOTA
 ?  ?  ?  Adam Z. Horvath 1995, Newsday. ?  ?  ?  St. Louis Post - Dispatch (pre-1997 Fulltext). ?  ?  ?  St. Louis, Mo.: Aug 20, 1995. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. 03.T:
I'VE LANDED in a place you'd never think to go: a prairie mecca of sauerkraut pizza and buffalo hot dogs, of bull-a-ramas and pitchfork fondues; where sunshine and hailstorms take unpredictable turns blasting the fascinating but wind-swept landscape - and the fascinating but wind-swept people.
 ?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 00:30:07 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:30:07 -0400
Subject: Baltimoron (1979)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203007.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BALTIMORON--891 Google hits,
                      1,280 Google Groups hits, to 1990

   I came across "Baltimoron" while looking through Baltimore cuisine.  It--like "Masshole"--is not in the HDAS.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
      Homesick
       WILLIAM MAXWELL WOOD Washington.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Jun 24, 1979.                   p. G6 (1 page):
   I am a native Baltimorean (or Baltimoron) and return frequently.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 00:32:26 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:32:26 -0400
Subject: Saying About Translation
In-Reply-To: <000701c39b08$0d36e190$0b01a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203226.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'Translations, like wives, are seldom faithful if they are in the least
>attractive.'
>Roy Campbell. Poetry Review (June/July 1949)
>
A couple of possible sources for the disjunctive version:

http://www.cali.co.uk/users/freeway/courthouse/sirthom.html
"The twentieth-century critic Bernard Levin has said that
translations, like women, are either belle or fid?le (either
beautiful or faithful) but rarely both."

http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/theory/lectures/2001_01_18_history.pdf
Naturally, in an age when translation flourishes, it is regarded as
fundamentally
possible. Translation is commonly described at this time as changing
clothes, as transporting
something in a container, or as pouring a liquid from one vessel into
another. The inside-
outside imagery refers back to theories which conceive of linguistic
form as the outward cover
of an inner, transportable meaning, and thus affirm translatability.
Cast in mimetic terms a
translation is a painted copy, a portrait, or indeed a copy of a
copy, in that the original itself
was already an imitation of nature.
But as Quintilian already remarked, the copy is inferior to its
model. Value judgments
become part of the picture. Translation may be cast as no more than a
partial copy preserving
only the outward form, not the original's inner energy or power, just
as a portrait painter can
copy only the sitter's visible shape, not his or her soul; it is a
rough drawing after the life, a
distorted likeness; a faint echo; a reflected light, like that of the
moon rather than the sun; a
shadow rather than a substance; a disfigured or mutilated body, a
corpse, a carcass, a mummy
(e.g. Anne Dacier in 1699); the reverse side of a tapestry (Lazare de
Ba?f in 1537; famously
Cervantes in Don Quixote part two,1615); a muddy stream rather than
clear water (Nicholas
Haward, 1564); fools' gold, or false pearls in place of diamonds (De
la Pineli?re, 1635).
This is also where the gendered images come in. The first occurrence
I know of dates from 1603, when the English translator John Florio
apologizes for his translations ("this defective edition") as
"reputed females, delivered at second hand." Around the middle of the
seventeenth century translations are notoriously compared to women:
they can be either beautiful or faithful but not both ("belles
infid?les", after Gilles M?nage's witty remark about Perrot
d'Ablancourt ca. 1654, first attested in writing in translation - in
a Latin letter by the Dutchman Constantijn Huygens).
==================
[but technically, as we should have known, the disjunction REALLY
applies only to Frenchwomen...]

http://personal.vsnl.com/bhargava/BTDeftDefinitions.html
TRANSLATION It is like a French lady. It can either be beautiful or faithful.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 00:34:07 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:34:07 -0400
Subject: An early "hot dog"/non-college (1896)--(was: ...1897)
In-Reply-To: <593F9D66.234F1258.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.203407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    I posted this 1896 citation months ago.  No one remembers?

Sorry.  I had thought Barry would have been likely to have found this, but
I did an archives search and missed it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Oct 26 01:10:42 2003
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:10:42 -0500
Subject: Saying About Translation
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.201042.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not quite what you asked or Jonathon Green gave you, but a Venezeulan room
mate, about 1963, gave me "Tradutore son traidore" - "translators are
traitors."
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>


There is a proverbial saying that translations are like wives (or women),
they are either beautiful or faithful.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 01:22:56 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:22:56 -0400
Subject: Foodgasm (2001); Porketta (1983); It's It (1928); Scooter Pie
 (1959)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.212256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FOODGASM

FOODGASM--151 Google hits,
                       37 Google Groups hits.

    "Foodgasm" appears to have been coined by a person on the "Straight Dope."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
[alt.fan.cecil-adams] Re: Mixing food flavors
 ... orange cheesecake with chocolate sauce. Yummy. Oh my oh my oh my oh
 my ... I think I just had a foodgasm. I think that's "oralgasm" <g ...
alt.humor.best-of-usenet - Mar 23, 2001 by ChrisAct at nwlink.com - View Thread (1 article)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PORKETTA

PORKETTA--967 Google hits,
                    148 Google Groups hits.

   A very popular dish in Minnesota.  There's a trademark for a product, but the dish is really "porchetta."


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 PORKETTA
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: blend of spices.
FIRST USE: 19830101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
74119136
 Filing Date
November 29, 1990
 Published for Opposition
 August 13, 1991
 Registration Number
1663561
 Registration Date
November 5, 1991
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) BAMBINO, INC. CORPORATION IDAHO 5602 Fairview Avenue Boise IDAHO 83706
 Attorney of Record
J.W. Gipple
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 8 (6-YR).  SECTION 8(10-YR) 20020727.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   20020727
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE

(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: WWIntSales (wwintsales at aol.com)
Subject: Re: REQ: Porketta?
Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking
Date: 1996/02/22
I too am from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where "porketta" is indeed
commonplace.  I believe most everyone had the butcher spice it for them.
The local taverns serve porketta sandwiches that are excellent!  I think
the primary spice is coarsely ground black pepper.  Italian type spices
such as rosemary, etc. are also prominent.

Sarah

(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      Buy 'em or bake 'em, but try some porketta
       Helen Dollaghan.       Denver Post (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Denver, Colo.: May 17, 1995.                   p. E.02
Dear Helen: I have enjoyed your column for many years but this is the first time I've submitted a recipe to you. I have such a flavorful recipe for porketta I'm sending it along in the hope you can use it. It's from my "Jenn-Aire Complete Cooking Cookbook." It is wonderful as written or can be adapted to a roast that is not rolled, coating just the outside.

I usually use my mortar and pestle to make a finer combination of seasonings (they seem to stay on the outside better) and to get the fullest flavor possible from the spices.

I usually bake my roast in the oven at 350 degrees instead of on a spit, and watch the meat thermometer for proper timing. - C. Heitman, Colorado Springs

PORKETTA

>From "Jenn-Aire Complete Cooking

Cookbook"

1 boneless, rolled, tied pork shoulder roast (3 1/2 to 4 pounds)

1/2 cup snipped fresh parsley

2 teaspoons minced garlic

2 teaspoons dried dill weed

1 teaspoon fennel seed, crushed

1 teaspoon dried rosemary leaves, crushed

1/4 teaspoon salt

1/4 teaspoon pepper

Coating (recipe follows)

*Remove strings or netting from roast and unroll. Trim excess fat from surface. Remove any inside pockets of fat.

Combine all filling ingredients. Rub filling into inside surface of roast. Reroll roast jelly roll fashion. Retie with string. Rub coating evenly on surface of roast.

(For spicier flavor refrigerate overnight and rub on coating just before cooking).

Skewer roast on spit. Secure with holders. Roast according to spit manufacturer's directions or until meat thermometer registers 170 degrees.

Let roast stand about 15 minutes for easier carving. Slice and serve warm or cold in hard rolls, if desired.

Serves 10 to 12.

Coating: Combine 3/4 teaspoon salt, 1/2 teaspoon coarsely ground pepper, 1/4 teaspoon dried dill weed.

Dear Helen: C. Mitchell asked for a recipe for porketta. As both my parents are from northern Minnesota, I am familiar with this delicious treat. My family is not this dedicated so we have discovered another way to obtain this tasty treat.

We call a wonderful shop in Hibbing, Minn., and have the roast sent. They will even ship a lean porketta for those who don't want all that fat. The shop is: Sunrise Gourmet Foods, 1813 Third Ave. East, Hibbing, Minn. 55746 (phone 1-800-782-6736). - M. Cheever, Kiowa.

A: A 3 to 4-pound porketta, ordered from Sunrise Gourmet Foods, costs $22, according to a phone conversation I had with a spokesman for the company. She pointed out that porketta is popular in northern Minnesota's Iron Range region, so called because of the iron mines there.

Meanwhile, here's another spin on the porketta saga.

Dear Helen: I saw the letter from C. Mitchell in your March 8 column. I cut it out and sent it to a friend who lives in Minnetonka (a suburb of Minneapolis) and is a regular Byerly's customer.

She took the clipping to Byerly's and they gave her the recipe for porketta. - S. Wills-Ortiz, Denver

BYERLY'S PORKETTA

Cut a boneless pork butt roast almost in half, lengthwise, and open it like a book. Generously sprinkle both sides with salt, pepper and garlic salt. Sprinkle fennel seeds sparingly on one side.

Sprinkle parsley flakes generously on other cut side. Sprinkle both sides with garlic salt and pepper.

Put roast together again. Tie securely with string. Generously sprinkle all sides with regular salt, pepper, garlic salt and pepper again in that order, using pepper twice. Place in roasting pan. Press fennel seeds on top.

Cover with parsley flakes. Roast, covered, in preheated 325-degree oven 3 to 4 hours or until roast falls apart when touched with tines of fork.

Traditionally, porketta should not be sliced but pulled apart with a fork. The flavor is the same essence as an Iron Range store-bought porketta but milder. If you've never been initiated into the porketta society, this is a pleasant way to earn your membership credentials.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT'S IT

"IT'S IT" and "ice cream"--3,270 Google hits


(GOOGLE)
http://mistersf.com/new/index.html?newitsit.htm
The It's-It is          the real San Francisco treat. This epicurean wonder, a confection          of vanilla ice cream sandwiched between two oatmeal cookies and covered          with chocolate then frozen, was invented in 1928 by amusement park owner          George Whitney. Whitney wanted something special for a refreshment stand          at his Ocean Beach attraction, San Francisco's historic Playland at the          Beach. The It's-It was it. Playland operated its midway, bumper cars,          rifle range, fun house and more for over fifty years before closing in          1972. By then the park had long since lost its luster. The rickety roller          coaster, The Big Dipper, had been torn down twenty years earlier. In addition          to the packaged It's-It, other remnants of the Playland era have endured          including the Mus?e Mechanique and Camera Obscura at the Cliff          House, the historic Charles Looff carousel now at the Zeum children's          center in Yerba Buena Gardens, and the hanging-by-a-thread Doggie          Diner mascot on Sloat Blvd.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.sonic.net/~playland/herb.html
Herb Caen, San Francisco's Chronicle Columnist
 Visits Playland for the Last Time, Sept. 4, 1972
We'll Never Go There Anymore

SINCE IT CLOSES forever after today, I decided to give  Playland-at-the-Beach one more chance to kill me.

 Parking my Mazda Rotary where the city meets the sea.   I stepped up to that familiar open window at the corner of Balboa and ordered a Bull Pupp Enchilada.  "Famous for 49 years." This one tasted a little younger and had plenty of zing.  Bull Pupps are not for kidds.

 Then I walked up the block to the It's It place and had a 40-cent corn dog, with plenty of mustard and catsup, and topped that with an It's It itself: the fabled sweetmeat made  of two oatmeal cookies with vanilla ice cream between, the whole covered with chocolate  sauce and frozen.

  The It's It didn't taste as good as I remembered it from years past but hardly anything does.  For one thing, the ice cream between the cookies should be flat.  This was round, scooped out like a golf ball and it never did soften into a manageable mess.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCOOTER PIE

SCOOTER PIE--1,540 Google hits
                           630 Google Groups hits

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 SCOOTER PIE
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: COOKIES.
FIRST USE: 19591217.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19591217
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
72203529
 Filing Date
October 7, 1964
 Registration Number
0834843
 Registration Date
September 5, 1967
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) QUAKER OATS COMPANY, THE CORPORATION NEW JERSEY MERCHANDISE MART PLAZA CHICAGO ILLINOIS
(LAST LISTED OWNER) GENERAL BISCUIT BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME DELAWARE 891 NEWARK AVENUE ELIZABETH NEW JERSEY 07207
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
KUHN AND MULLER
 Disclaimer
APPLICANT DISCLAIMS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO  THE WORD "PIE," SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN, BUT RESERVES ALL COMMON LAW RIGHTS IN AND TO SAID WORD.
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   19870905
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Oct 26 01:23:26 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:23:26 -0400
Subject: 2 Antedatings
In-Reply-To: <00e701c39b5e$590d97c0$8b5f12d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.212326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are two antedatings from Amazon full-text searches:


hymen2 (OED, 1., 1615)

1538 Thomas Elyot _Dictionary_  Hymen ... a skinne in the secrete place of
a maiden, which whanne she is defloured is broken.


Holmesian, n. (OED 1958)

1930 Christopher Morley _Foreword_ in _Complete Sherlock Holmes_


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Sun Oct 26 01:39:19 2003
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas M. Paikeday)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:39:19 -0400
Subject: clothes on his back
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.213919.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This seems an idiomatic expression with meaning that is more than the sum of its parts. What is clearly meant is the "clothes he was wearing." If the poor fellow who went over Niagara Falls last week didn't have his pants on, AP would surely have reported it.
The expression is widely used in current English, witness Google (6,940 hits, 3,460 for "her back"). And it is not something new. The OED text (1992 disk) has three occurrences. The earliest is from 1584, Sir J. Bowes: "None of them had clothes on his back worth a robell."

Am I missing an entry in any of the major dictionaries?

TOM PAIKEDAY

www.paikeday.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 01:41:15 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:41:15 -0400
Subject: Animal Style & Wish Burger ("In-N-Out Secret Menu")
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.214115.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Restaurant lingo is never "86"-ed.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Fan clubs / The secret life of a West Coast burger star
       TOM McNICHOL.       Houston Chronicle.       Houston, Tex.: Aug 23, 2002.                   p. 5
(...)
   The In-N-Out menu offers four items: hamburger, cheeseburger, Double-Double burger and fries. (That Double Double, at 670 calories and 41 grams of fat, is basically a coronary thrombosis on a gently toasted bun.) But patrons can customize the basic burgers by adding or subtracting toppings such as pickles, tomatoes and grilled onions; they can even eliminate the meat altogether.

   Over the years, this trend has evolved into what's become known as the Secret Menu - a list of popular burger variations that don't appear on the menu but are passed along by word of mouth. For example, a burger ordered Animal Style comes doused with mustard and pickles, extra special sauce and grilled onions. The Wish Burger is somewhat simpler to parse - a vegetarian option, without meat or cheese. And the Protein Style burger replaces the bun with a piece of fresh lettuce, for those on a low-carbohydrate diet. Then there's the mighty 4-by-4, with four meat patties and four slices of cheese.

   The Secret Menu is not an In-N-Out marketing creation, and its popularity appears to mystify the company's officers.

   "We've never called it the Secret Menu," said Carl Van Fleet, the chain's vice president for operations. "We've always prepared a burger any way you want. Our customers came up with the names like Animal Style."

(GOOGLE)
http://www.tiburon-belvedere.com/cgi/home.cgi?c=In_N_Out
Did you know that In-N-Out            Burger has a secret unpublished menu? Everyone links to ours because it's always up-to-date and accurate. If you like In-N-Out Burger, you'll love            the following special order items:

"3-by-3" = three meat patties      and three slices of cheese.

"4-by-4" = four meat patties      and four slices of cheese.

"2-by-4" = two meat patties      and four slices of cheese.

*Note: You can get a burger      with as many meat paties or cheese slices as you want. Just tell the In-N-Out Burger cashier      how many meat paties and how much cheese you want and that is what you'll      get! For instance, if you want 6 pieces of meat and 10 pieces of cheese tell      them you want a "6-by-10."

"Double Meat" = like            a Double Double without cheese.

"3 by Meat" = three            meat patties and no cheese.

"Animal Style" = the meat      is cooked and fried with mustard and then pickles are added, extra spread      and grilled onions are added.

"Animal      Style Fries" = fries with cheese, spread, grilled onions and sometimes      pickles.

"Protein Style" = for            all you low-carbohydrate dieters, this is a burger with no bun (wrapped in lettuce).

"Flying Dutchman" = two meat      patties cooked medium rare, two slices of melted cheese and nothing else -      not even a bun!

Fries "Well-Done" = extra      crispy fries . . . even better than the regular!

Fries "Light" = opposite of fries well-done, more raw than most people like 'em

"Grilled Cheese" = no meat,      just melted cheese, tomato, lettuce and sauce on a bun.

"Veggie Burger" = burger      without the patty or cheese.

"Neapolitan" Shake = strawberry,      vanilla and chocolate blended together.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.dailynugget.com/000445.php
In-n-Out Secret Menu
         I guess not everybody knows about the In-n-Out secret menu.  So for all of those that did not grow up in Southern California, here it is:

  "3-by-3" = three meat patties and three slices of cheese.
 "4-by-4" = four meat patties and four slices of cheese.
 "2-by-4" = two meat patties and four slices of cheese.

  Note: You can get a burger with as many meat paties or cheese slices as you want. Just tell the cashier how many meat paties and how much cheese you want and that is what you'll get! For instance, if you want 2 pieces of meat and 6 pieces of cheese tell them you want a "2-by-6."

  "Animal Style" = the meat is grilled with mustard, then pickles, extra spread, and grilled onions are added.
 "Double Meat" = like a Double Double without cheese.
 "3-by-Meat" = three meat patties and no cheese.
 "Animal Style Fries" = fries with cheese, spread, grilled onions.
 "Protein Style" = this is a burger with no bun, wrapped in lettuce.
 "Grilled Cheese" = no meat, but everything else.
 "Veggie Burger" = aka "Wish Burger," burger without patty or cheese.
 "On the Sal" = this is just lettuce and dressing. Nothing else.
 "Volcano Top" = Top bun hollowed out and filled with ketchup, really!
 "Fries Well-Done" = extra crispy fries, even better than the regular!
 "Fries Light" = opposite of fries well-done, more raw than usual.
 "Flying Dutchman" = two meat patties, two slices of melted cheese--nothing else--not even a bun!
 "Neopolitan Shake" = strawberry, vanilla and chocolate shake.

  Other Lingo:

  "100-by-100" = legend has it that this was ordered by a group of four celebrating a birthday.
 "500-by-500" = an unconfirmed order made by a fraternity.
 "Home Run" = this is when a car passes by the microphone without ordering and cruises right up to the service window.
By Fabian on Tuesday, July 22, 2003


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 26 02:42:57 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:42:57 -0400
Subject: 2 Antedatings/hymen
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.224257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To Joanne's good credit, M-W had 1543 in their latest.  But you beat that by
5 years.

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 9:23 PM
Subject: 2 Antedatings


> Here are two antedatings from Amazon full-text searches:
>
>
> hymen2 (OED, 1., 1615)
>
> 1538 Thomas Elyot _Dictionary_  Hymen ... a skinne in the secrete place of
> a maiden, which whanne she is defloured is broken.
>
>
> Holmesian, n. (OED 1958)
>
> 1930 Christopher Morley _Foreword_ in _Complete Sherlock Holmes_
>
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 02:44:19 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:44:19 -0400
Subject: Half Smokes (1924); Coney Island Chicken (1924)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.224419.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Half smokes" is not the OED.
   DARE  has "half-smoke" (it's usually not hyphenated, as in the following examples) as "chiefly sNJ."  The first citation is from 1968.
   This "Coney Island chicken" is a little earlier than my 1933 citation in the archives.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
      Everest A Mere Hill Alongside 'Mt. Hercules'
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 20, 1924.                   p. XX2 (1 page):
(Second article, below the Everest one--ed.)
_Hot Dog Is Having Its Day:_
   _World's Most Popular Lunch_
(...)
   The one-time "Coney Island" that the small town boy knew only as one of the delights of circuses, carnivals and fairs, has taken an all-the-year-round shanty on Main Street.
(...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   In the variety of local names applied to the same product a national term often proves useful.  The trade has already learned to respond to the names, "Coney Island chicken," "shore dinner," "half smokes," "weinies" and so on.  To one manufacturer came an order for reed birds.  He replied that he was not in the poultry business.  "Send hot-dogs," the customer wrote back; and the manufacturer understood.

      ' Hot Dogs' Top the List Of Sausages Eaten Here
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May 7, 1935.                   p. 15 (1 page):
   "Hot dogs," known also as wieners, Coney Islands, half smokes, red hots and, on occasion, frankfurters, are New York City's favorite sausages.  This information was released to the public yesterday by George A. Schmidt, chairman of the governing committee of the National Organization of Sausage Manufacturers.
(There is also a similar article in the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR for May 9--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
      Display Ad 11 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Feb 4, 1933.                   p. 9 (1 page):
HALF SMOKED SAUSAGE lb. 25c

Display Ad 6 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jan 16, 1942.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   Armour's "STAR"
SMOKED
SAUSAGE
(Half Smokes)
   lb. 35c

      Two Men Hoping for a Hot Dog Empire
       Washington Post Staff WriterBy Douglas C. Lyons.       The Washington Post  (1974-Current file).       Washington, D.C.: Mar 25, 1976.                   p. D_C_1 (2 pages):
Pg. 1, col. 5:  Their hot dogs sell for 55 cents and their half smokes for 70 cents.



(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 HALF SMOKED
 Goods and Services
(ABANDONED) IC  029.  US 046.  G & S: SAUSAGE.
FIRST USE: 19811101.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19811101
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73502041
 Filing Date
October 2, 1984
 Owner
(APPLICANT) MASH, NATHAN INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 3709 BRETON WAY BALTIMORE MARYLAND 21208
 Attorney of Record
WILLIAM D. HALL
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
DEAD
 Abandonment Date
July 2, 1985


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Oct 26 03:29:22 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:29:22 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Amusement Park(1901)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.232922.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W and OED both have 1909.  I didn't find earlier in the archives.

Using Ancestry.com, from the Sandusky(OH) Daily Star, March 12, 1901, page
?, col. 4:

An article titled <A MIDWAY>  <Will Be a Feature of the Next Ohio State
Fair>

<There will be a number of spectacular features, though the exact nature of
these is not yet determined upon.  A man at St. Louis created a sensation
last summer with his "sky cycle."  The fair managers have opened
correspondence with him with a view to securing his attraction and will
probably get it.
    A section of the grounds has been set aside to be devoted to this use.
It will be known as "Amusement Park."  It will be the Midway Plaisance of
the fair, but the standard will be much higher than is generally understood
by that term.>

(ed.--The Midway Plaisance is probably in reference to the midway at the
Chicago Fair in 1893, which area is still called that today.)

As an addenda, there appeared in the April 19th, 1901 edition of the same
Sandusky paper, an article which indicated that a Frank Burt was the
owner/promoter of a string of parks in the Midwest, including Cedar Point in
Sandusky.  There was the blurb <Amusement park trust the latest out.  Frank
Burt of Toledo, promoter.>

If anyone wanted to research this, he no doubt had a lot to do with the
origin of "Amusement Parks."

SC


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 03:48:40 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:48:40 -0400
Subject: White Hots (from Rochester, NY)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.OCT.2003.234840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Red hots" of a different color.  I don't know what the next volume of DARE will have.  It was/is a specialty of Rochester, New York.


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      Hold the Homogeneity. Hot Dogs Stay Local.
       Glenn Collins.       New York Times (Late Edition (East Coast)).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 15, 2001.                   p. 3.6
Like Usinger and Thumann, many other hot dog manufacturers are family businesses, rich in history. Usinger dates to 1880, Thumann to 1949. Among their many cousins, in spirit at least, count the Cloverdale Foods Company of Mandan, N.D.; Farmer John Hot Dogs from the Clougherty Packing Company of Los Angeles; Sahlen's Smokehouse Hot Dogs from the Sahlen Packing Company of Buffalo; Vienna Beef frankfurters from the Vienna Sausage Manufacturing Company of Chicago; and Zweigle's White Hots from Zweigle's Inc. of Rochester.
(...)
Besides taste preferences, the large companies must contend with localized variation in cooking hot dogs. They can be steamed, boiled, broiled, grilled, fried and microwaved. Color differs, too: Red hot dogs in some areas of the South and Midwest are tinted with red dye, while Rochester has its legendary ''white hots,'' pork franks that are decidedly pale.

      LOW-FAT HOT DOGS HELP AMERICANS CONTINUE A LOVE AFFAIR
       Linda Shrieves, Orlando Sentinel..       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Jun 12, 1996.                   p. 3.A :
Tube steaks. Foot longs. Wieners. Red hots. White hots.

      Red hots No consensus dog at home, but Japan can taste a winner
       Nancy Ryan..       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Oct 7, 1991.                   p. 1:
GRAPHIC (color): Hot dogs: A regional taste The popular sausage-on-a-bun has many names: hot dogs, frankfurters, wieners, franks, red hots, white hots. Here are a few of the many regional variations.

      COUNTER OFFER DINER CHIC
       Sheryl Julian, Globe Staff.       Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Boston, Mass.: Oct 7, 1990.                   p. 41:
     There are better franks on the market now than there used to be. One brand, called White Hots -- all-beef franks made in Rochester, New York -- is spicier and lighter in color than ordinary hot dogs and delicious with homemade beans.

      Go Ahead, Make My Grill...; Ordering the Best Ethnic Sausages by Mail
       Margaret Engel.       The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 24, 1988.                   p. e.01:
Grilling expert, Donald Zabkar, of Zab's Backyard Hots, outside Rochester, N.Y., explains that cooks should never just put a hot dog or sausage directly over the red coals. (It goes without saying that the meats should never be put on the grill frozen, but should have been defrosted overnight in the refrigerator.)

     "Let them temper on the edge {of the grill}," Zabkar related. When they've cooked through, "then you can move them over the heat. It's very important to cook the inside and not just have the outside grilled."

     With Zabkar's white and red Rochester hotdogs, cooking the dogs until they burst is "coup de grace for fine wienering," as he puts it.

     Grilled red and white hots were a Rochester specialty that was in danger of culinary extinction until Zabkar and his two older brothers, Michael and David, rescued the hometown food by hiring a local packer to once again turn out the specialty.

     Zab's mild white "tube steak" contains veal, ham and beef, plus paprika, mustard, milk powder and spices. The red dog has some food coloring and preservatives, but is thinner, longer and much better-tasting than America's usual hot dog. The casing is extremely thin and the meat a combination of beef and pork.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
      On Upstate Menus, Grape Pies and White Hots
       By JANE PERLEZ.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Oct 16, 1985.                   p. B2 (1 page):
   White barbecue sauce?  Flower for eating?  Grape pie?  Smoked cheese in a breakfast dish?
(...)
   In Naples, for instance, a town wreathed by vineyards an hour's drive south of Rochester, grape pie makes a fleeting but intense appearance this time of year.
(...)
   Originally manufactured in the 1920's as a poor man's hot dog made of the less desirable meat parts, the white hot dog later evolved into a top of the line sausage, according to J. Michael Zabkar Jr., the president of Zab's. (...) A white hot dog contains less fat, is not smoked and is cooked with "natural sodium rather than salt," he said.
(...)
   Smoked New York State cheese provides a vital ingredient to the "stradas" served by Barbara Johnson, the proprietor with her husband, Bruce, of the William Seward Inn in Westfield, 60 miles south of Buffalo.  A strada, a concoction of cheese, egg, bread and milk baked in the oven, arrives at the table resembling a puffy, cheese-laden pancake.


      Hot Dog Nostalgia
       EVELYN F. ELKODSI.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1983.                   p. C10 (1 page) :
   I enjoyed the article about Rochester White Hots ["Rochester's Own, a Hot Dog With Zing," April 20].  However, no mention was made that White Hots have been known in Rochester for years.  I recall with nostalgia enjoying a grilled White Hot on the short of Lake Ontario in the 40's and 50's.  Ask any older native of the city.  They were manufactured by a local sausage company (name forgotten) and distributed locally.

      Letter to the Editor 1 -- No Title
       CAROLYN H. DOWNING.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 27, 1983.                   p. C10 (1 page):
   I enjoyed greatly your piece about the native cuisine of Rochester and the growing popularity of the White Hot.  I must take issue, however, with Mr. Zabkar's claim to the invention of the Rochester White Hot.  White Hots were a very popular item in Rochester long before Mr. Zabkar was born.  I was introduced to them more than 30 years ago while visiting my sister and her husband in Rochester.  It was a case of love at first bite.  They are absolutely the best of the wurst.
   There is a sister product, the Red Hot, which is also delicious, but not for the faint of heart.

      Rochester's Own: A Hot Dog With Zing
       By RICHARD D. LYONS.       New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Apr 20, 1983.                   p. C3 (1 page):
   The Rochester White Hot is a frankfurter made with veal, pork, mustard, paprika and other spices, then charcoal broiled to order over a fire of hickory chips, and served with a sauce that blends onions, peppers, relish, vinegar and molasses.  The effect ranges from a blowtorch to a forest fire, depending on the aggressiveness of the other garnishes selected.
   White Hots and the larger versions called the Big White and the White Foot are the inspirations of Donad Zabkar, a 28-year-old entrepreneur who runs Zab's Hot to Trot, a rapidly expanding company, with his four brothers and their sister.
   "Before we opened there wasn't anywhere in Rochester where you could buy a charcoil-broiled hot dog, or even a place that specialized in different varieties of hot dogs," Mr. Zabkar explained the other day.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 06:13:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:13:35 EST
Subject: Antedating of Amusment Park(1901) (1890)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.011335.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Close, but no cigar.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
1.
      Display Ad 42 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).    Washington, D.C.: Apr 19,
1896.                   p. 20 (1 page):
   The International Athletic Park and Amusement Company has secured a large
block of the Palisades and is constructing a Bicycle Track and Gernal
Amusement Park thereon, which will be ready for a Grand Opening on Decoration Day.


2.
      Display Ad 1 -- No Title
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).    Washington, D.C.: Aug 24,
1900.                   p. 2 (1 page) :
   Moore & Smith, of Wildwood Hotel and Amusement Park,...

3.
      Display Ad 2 -- No Title
          The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug 25,
1900.      p. 2 (1 page)

4.
      TALK OF THEATERS.
              The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Aug
26, 1900.              p. 24 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--NEW YORK TIMES)
1.
      Classified Ad 2 -- No Title
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: May
4, 1890.                   p. 7 (1 page)

2.
      MOUNT TABOR.
  New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1890.
               p. 10 (1 page):
   In the afternoon special efforts are to be made to entertain the children
in the Amusement Park, and probably athletic games will be arranged.


3.
      A NEW PARK FOR BAYONNE.
            New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Jul
11, 1897.      p. 3 (1 page):
   It is estimated that perhaps $200,000 would be expended upon the proposed
amusement park.

4.

      ST. PETERSBURG'S NEW "PALACE OF THE PEOPLE"(2)
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Dec 9,
1900.                   p. 7 (1 page)

5.
      ST. PETERSBURG'S NEW "PALACE OF THE PEOPLE"
              New York Times  (1857-Current file).       New York, N.Y.: Dec
9, 1900.                   p. 7 (1 page)



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
1.
      Classified Ad 5 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 18, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)

2.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 19, 1894.      p. 6 (1 page)

3.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
20, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)

4.
      Classified Ad 1 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
21, 1894.                   p. 3 (1 page)

5.
      Classified Ad 3 -- No Title
        Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May
23, 1894.                   p. 6 (1 page)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Oct 26 13:14:21 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:14:21 EST
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.081421.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.

Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
clumsy speakers?

        - Jim Landau

:) said Tom, parenthetically.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 00:22:27 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:22:27 EST
Subject: Buffalo's Truffalo (1997) & Sponge Candy (1910)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.192227.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Sponge candy" is not mentioned at all in (all together now) John F. 
Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999).  "Sponge candy" is also 
not in (all together) the OED.  "Sponge candy" is a Buffalo regional specialty. 
 I don't know if it will make DARE, which stops at "Sk."
   There's no mystery to this regional item.  See the web site for Fowler's 
Chocolates:  H. W. Fowler wrote MODERN ENGLISH USAGE--then gave it all up to 
make "sponge candy" in Buffalo, New York?  Go figure.
   
  
  
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/CTGY/About_Us
> The story of Fowler?s Chocolate Shoppe, Inc. began in 1901 with a young 
> entrepreneur by the name of Joseph A. Fowler. After living in England and 
> Canada, Joseph traveled to Buffalo, NY in order to attend the Pan American 
> Exposition. At the exposition, he created and sold a small variety of chocolate 
> confections and sweets. The instant acceptance of his products, along with great 
> encouragement from his patrons, inspired Joseph to pursue candy making as a 
> career. With his brother, Claude, Joseph opened a small candy store in Buffalo. 
> 
> 
> In 1910, Claude decided to start his own business, concentrating on the 
> making of taffy and candied apples, and catered to carnivals, fairs and other 
> public gatherings. Claude passed away in 1942, but three generations of his 
> family have carried on his taffy business, now prominent in most carnivals and 
> fairs in the western New York area.
> 
> Joseph A. Fowler passed away in 1944, yet succeeding generations have 
> continued the chocolate business that he began nearly a century ago. Joseph?s sons, 
> Joseph C. Fowler and Ray Fowler, carried on the business and were 
> responsible for the success and growth of the company throughout the ?50s and early ?
> 60s. In 1961, Joseph C. Fowler?s son, Roy, joined the corporation, and in 
> 1968, Fowler?s Chocolate moved its operations to a 10,000 square foot building. 
> This new facility enabled the company to double its gross sales.
> 
> In 1993, the company was purchased by Buffalo residents Randy and Ted Marks. 
> At that time, the business had greatly expanded and had outgrown its old 
> location. The company was relocated to its current address at 100 River Rock 
> Drive in Buffalo.   
     
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/PROD/BS/SC
> Sponge Candy 8 oz.
>    
> Our #1 best-seller, every year, every season! With a sweet, crispy center 
> surrounded by rich premium chocolate, this mouth-watering treat is not only 
> heavenly, it's absolutely irresistible! Available in Milk, Dark or Orange 
> Chocolate. 8 oz.
> 
    
http://www.fowlerschocolates.com/page/FC/PROD/BS/728    
> Truffaloes
What would you call a truffle that is shaped like a bison, and made in 
Buffalo? Why, a Truffalo, of course! Milk Chocolate, with a hazelnut truffle center 
and Dark Chocolate with a raspberry truffle center. 8 oz.
  
  
Also, there's Romolo Chocolates of Erie, PA:
   
http://www.romolochocolates.com/
Romolo Chocolates' rich history began with Romolo, an Italian who immigrated 
to New York City in 1906. His grandson Tony, owner and master confectioner at 
Romolo Chocolates, continues to make cremes, caramels and other confections in 
the traditional methods his grandfather began after years working with candy 
makers in New York City and Chicago.  The family's confection making and 
chocolate mastery were learned under his tutelage.    
  
http://shop.romolochocolates.com/shopsite/romolo/index.html
The "famous in Romolo's Famous Sponge Candy came into play years after Romolo 
developed an impossibly delicate confection covered in rich milk chocolate 
that captured the taste buds and hearts of local Erieites and the attention of a 
national candy company. Needless to say, the national company never did get 
an exclusive contract, and the family recipe for sponge candy continues to be 
made at Romolo Chocolates and devoured far and wide. A chunk of delicate crisp 
that melts in your mouth, has a hint of molasses flavor and is coated in 
creamy milk chocolate, Romolo's Famous Sponge Candy is our most popular piece of 
candy. 
  
    
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark    TRUFFALOES 
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: buffalo-shaped candies with soft 
centers. FIRST USE: 19971215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19971225 
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   75394557    
Filing Date November 20, 1997   
Filed ITU   FILED AS ITU    
Published for Opposition    July 7, 1998    
Registration Number 2221017 
Registration Date   January 26, 1999    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Original Fowler's Chocolate Co., Inc. CORPORATION NEW 
YORK 100 River Rock Drive Suite 102 Buffalo NEW YORK 14207 
Attorney of Record  TRICIA T SEMMELHACK 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
    
   "Sponge candy" isn't in a lot of the usual suspects (Making of America, 
Brooklyn Eagle, American Kitchen Magazine).  I haven't yet checked ProQuest.
  
(ANCESTRY)
   24 January 1895, FORT WAYNE NEWS (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg.1, col. 7:
   Something new and delicious--Pepsin Sponge Candy, at Batchelder's, No. 29 
West Main Street.
  
   23 March 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 3, col. 4:
Chocolate Sponge
Pound Packages... 29c
(This could be "sponge cake," but it's in a section of candy advertisements, 
with no cake mentioned--ed.)
  
   13 April 1910, EVENING NEWS (Ada, Oklahoma), pg.4?, col. 3:
      Sponge Candy
   One cup of table syrup, one cup of granulated sugar; let boil until it 
cracks when dropped in cold water.  Take two teaspoons of baking soda rubbed 
smooth; stir soda quickly into candy.  After removing candy from fire, when thick 
turn out on buttered platter and let cool.
  
  
(If you go to Buffalo and buy some sponge candy, you may choose to share some 
with friends, but make sure they're sponge-worthy"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 00:58:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:58:50 EST
Subject: Senior Citizen (September 1938)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.195850.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has TIME magazine, 24 October 1938, for "senior citizen."  I'll check
ProQuest in a moment.  Is it from California?
   Where are the "junior" citizens?

(ANCESTRY)
   20 September 1938, RENO EVENING GAZETTE, pg. 11, col. 2:
  " ...to solve unemployment, to end the need of doles, to care for senior
citizens--retirement life payments is proposed to California as state
constitutional amendment."


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 01:06:58 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:06:58 -0800
Subject: resyllabification
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.170658.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).

last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
accent).

undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 01:50:23 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:50:23 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.195023.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This message is solely for Americans. British subscribers should read
no further and promptly delete what follows.

   Okay? All set? Here goes.

   I quote from the _St. Louis Post Dispatch_ Oct. 26, 2003, pg.
2C/1-3; article by Jerry Berger, title: "At least St. Louisan Didn't
Call Prince Andrew a Bum!":
   'RE-MEMBER, SUE: It's too bad Sue Engelhardt doesn't live in
Pittsburgh.  Residents of that town have been subjected to days of
lessons in the proper behavior toward royalty.  But Engelhardt, the
princess of Peabody Coal, is a hometowner so excited at meeting HRH
The Duke of York, (aka Prince Andrew) at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel
Wednesday night, that she had the young prince baffled.  Engelhardt
discussed coal-to-Great Britain, at which point Prince Andrew
deadpanned, "We use gas!"  Turning to the prince, who was in town to
raise money for the English Speaking Union-St. Louis Branch,
Engelhardt told him, "You're the best tool we have."  Prince Andrew
shot back, "I'm a tool?" For the record, Sue, "tool" is British slang
for something that a member of the Royal Family is unlikely to
mention in polite company.  Still, the allusion drew a faint smile
from Andrew's otherwise scowling Special Branch security detail.
Andrew's impromptu admission at the beginning of his prepared remarks
that he finally understood the well-intentioned reference was the
only spark in a lackluster, four-minute royal oration.'

Gerald Cohen,
an unabashed Anglophile


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 02:32:22 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:32:22 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20resyllabification?=
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.213222.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/26/03 8:07:29 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:


> two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
> especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.? for many
> people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
> morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
> the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.? and
> some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
> Morning Edition, regularly does this? to the final b of "Bob", and i
> just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
> again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
> 
> last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
> took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
> like "Misty Crivver".? then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
> "Mystic River".? presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
> name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
> moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
> accent).
> 
> undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
> 
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
> 
Some quick thoughts:
I wonder what happens to the potential aspiration of the /p/ in a 
resyllabified "Sandrip Roy". With a word boundary between the /p/ and the /r/, I believe 
there is normally little if any aspiration of the /p/. But with the word 
boundary before the /p/, I'd tend to aspirate the /p/ quite strongly. Compare 
"night rate" with "Nye Trait"--for me, the /t/ in "night rate" often gets reduced 
to a glottal stop (therefore without any aspiration). Of course, in these 
examples the stress is on the initial syllable, not the second one, but even so, I 
think I would in general have a lot of trouble EVER resyllabifying words that 
end in vowel + /t/, I think--the aspiration of the /t/ after the word boundary 
would make the resyllabified word sound too different. Could e.g. "rabbit 
rot" become "rabbi trot"?

I think the same holds for "Mystic River "--> "Misty Criver" -- was the guy 
really resyllabifying it, or were you just missing some cues? Wouldn't there be 
aspiration on the /k/ if it were truly syllable-initial?   


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 03:08:33 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:08:33 -0500
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.220833.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, it's earlier on ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.  That's California politics for you.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
      New Pension Plan Offered
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1937.                   p. 5 (1 page):
   SACRAMENTO, April 14. (Exclusive)--Robert Noble of Hollywood took the rostrum in the Assembly today and addressed members of the Legislature on his "roperty (sic) certificates" for senior citizens of California.

      LETTERS To THE TIMES
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
   Every "senior citizen" who would receive his "$30 every Thursday" would spend the warrants as quickly as possible to avoid having to attach the weekly 2-cent stamp required.

      Just Supposing It Happened
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
   it will be over the determined protest of John Taxpayer, indeed, that either the "senior citizens," or those who fell for their optimism currency, collect even the full amount per ticket represented by the stamps licked and stuck thereon.

      Haight Assails Pension Plan
              Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 12, 1938.                   p. 6 (1 page)

      THE GREAT GAME OF POLITICS
       FRANK R KENT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 28, 1938.                   p. 7 (1 page):
   WASHINGTON, Oct. 27.--One of the major developments in American politics, frequently commented on in recent months, is the multiplicity of new schemes for granting and increasing pensions to the aged--or, as some politicans are tenderly beginning to call them, "our senior citizens."


(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
      Townsend Successors Still Strong In West
       By Elmer T. Peterson. Special Correspondence of The Post..       The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 31, 1938.                   p. B9 (1 page):
   The build-up is that every "senior citizen" has done his share of the world's work and is now entitled to a living.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 03:53:26 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:53:26 -0500
Subject: Santa Maria Barbecue
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.225326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANTA MARIA BARBECUE--297 Google hits
   "Santa Maria" barbecue is not in...well, you know.  It's like "pitchfork fondue" and "pit beef," only different.
   Unfortunately, the ProQuest LOS ANGELES TIMES is stuck on July 1939 for the moment.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.santamaria.com/section_visitor/barbecue.html
Visiting the Santa Maria Valley is a feast for the senses with its lush rolling hills and fragrant fields of strawberries. But cruise down Broadway on any given weekend, and it???s the mouth-watering smell of barbecue that will greet you. In fact, Santa Maria is known nation-wide as the "Barbecue Capital of the World."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Santa Maria Style Barbecue is truly the authentic taste experience of Santa Maria. This sumptuous feast of barbecued sirloin, salsa, Pinquito beans, toasted French bread, and green salad has been called by Sunset Magazine, the "best barbecue in the world" and the California???s Visitor???s Guide raves this the "number one food not to miss while visiting California." It is the featured cuisine at all festive occasions, both public and private, and so thoroughly ingrained in local culture that it truly has become a way of life.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Santa Maria Barbecue has its roots in the mid-19th century, when the rancheros gathered to help each other brand their calves each spring. The host would prepare a Spanish style barbecue as a thank you for his vaqueros (America???s first cowboys), family and friends. Under the oaks of this serene little coastal valley they would enjoy a traditional feast that included beef barbecued over a red oak fire, served with Pinquito beans, bread, salsa and homemade desserts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The present Santa Maria Style Barbecue grew out of this tradition, and achieved its "style" some 60 years ago when local residents began to string their beef on skewers and cook it over the hot coals of a red oak fire. The meat, either top block sirloin or the triangular-shaped bottom sirloin known as "tri tip," is rolled in a mixture of salt, pepper and garlic salt just prior to cooking. It is then barbecued over red oak coals, giving the meat a hearty, smoky flavor.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The traditional Santa Maria Barbecue menu features, of course, the barbecued sirloin, trimmed, sliced, and laid out in metal pans so that the diner may select the desired doneness. The only condiment for this tender and flavorful meat is a fresh salsa. With it is served grilled French bread dipped in sweet melted butter, perfect for soaking up every last bit of the flavorful meat juices. Also served on the side is a tossed green salad, and slow-cooked pinquito beans. For the most authentic Santa Maria Barbecue experience, select a robust Santa Maria Valley wine to accompany your meal. This tasty feast is finished with coffee and a simple dessert.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Once a well-kept local secret, word of Santa Maria Style Barbecue has spread around the world, enticing travelers to come by the thousands, seeking a taste of this local specialty, and it???s not difficult to find. On a typical Saturday, you will see clouds of fragrant smoke billowing through the air, leading you to numerous barbecues throughout the city. They range from outdoor feasts along Broadway sponsored by schools and local charities, to restaurants offering a more formal dining experience, to backyard cookouts where families enjoy their own recipes that have been passed down through the generations.  It???s no wonder Santa Maria is called the "Barbecue Capital of the World."



(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
      SANTA MARIA BARBECUE A COWBOY-STYLE TREAT
       Merle Ellis.       Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Chicago, Ill.: Apr 21, 1988.                   p. 7.B

      Barbecue Goes Back to the Vaqueros
       MERLE ELLIS, SPECIAL TO THE CHRONICLE.       San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       San Francisco, Calif.: Apr 20, 1988.                   p. 7.ZZ.7

      PAST PERFECT The Good Old Days Are Alive and Well . . . if You Just Know Where to Look
       DEBORAH GEIGIS.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 23, 1988.                   p. 1

      It's time for a couple of good barbecue tips
       MERLE ELLIS.       Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Houston, Tex.: May 6, 1987.                   p. 2
                  ? ? ? ? ?
       Take a Couple of Tips for a Great Barbecue
       MERLE ELLIS.       San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext).       San Francisco, Calif.: Apr 15, 1987.                   p. AA.4

      Trekking Sand Dunes And Old Guadalupe
       MICHELE GRIMM, TOM GRIMM.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 4, 1987.                   p. 14

      Reflections on a Blend of the Old and the New
       BARBARA HANSEN.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1986.                   p. 37

      The Barbecues of Santa Maria
       ROSE DOSTI.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: May 23, 1985.                   p. 1:
   Straw hats shade the eyes that peer at a passing Chrysler that is too big and too brassy for Santa Maria-like a harlot stepping off a stagecoach.

   Then slowly, one by one, the barbecue wagons, stationed at corner lots of this picturesque Central California farming community, appear. Smoke billows from their grids; the smell maddening.

   At first, the barbecue stations are slow to appear. But once you enter the main artery of the town, the barbecues come at you faster and faster. Soon they are on every corner-at shopping malls, parking lots, empty lots and store fronts.

   Suddenly you stop.

   The Latin American Social Organization is one of numerous local groups sponsoring barbecues for all sorts of events that come to town. Their barbecue station is situated smack on the front lot of a Lucky Store on Alvin Street. You can't miss it.

   Barbecues in Santa Maria are a way of saying "howdy" to newcomers, living up to the tradition of hospitality common to Santa Maria. They are a friendly way of raising funds for things like the rodeo, which is open this year from May 31 until June 2.

   Groups like the Elks, Masons or Knights of Columbus may sponsor one of the nine candidates for the rodeo queen. As always, since 1960 when LASO became an organized group, it is sponsoring the Elks' candidate for rodeo queen. This year, Rosie Flores' photograph is posted on the sides of the LASO barbecue wagon, like a candidate in a political campaign.

   Santa Maria barbecues date back to early California history when neighboring rancheros and vaqueros gathered under the oaks of the serene valley. Back in those days, rancheros in the valley would help one another round up and brand cattle. The gracious ranchero would host a barbecue in honor of his friends.

   Since then, barbecues are touched off for any reason and have become both a tradition and way of life for the natives of Santa Maria, whether holding curb-side fund raising events or entertaining backyard guests.

   The menu and recipes for the meat, beans and macaroni and cheese are copyrighted, and authorized barbecuers have traveled outside Santa Maria to hold what has become known as the "Santa Maria-Style Barbecue."

   Each group-indeed, each cook- boasts his or her own recipe for beans and macaroni and cheese, the two mainstays of a Santa Maria barbecue menu. But the recipe for the barbecued meat is standard-Santa Maria style, according to Bob Seavers, secretary manager of the Santa Maria Valley Chamber of Commerce for the past 33 years. Which means that the meat must be seasoned with salt, pepper and garlic salt (crushed garlic in the old days), then barbecued. No deviations allowed. No cooking ahead, either. An authentic Santa Maria barbecue calls for cooking and serving at once.

   According to Seavers, old-time rancheros would barbecue ribs by stringing them together on willow branches and hooking the branch onto two forks over an open fire. Later, pits were devised to make use of coal, a longer-burning fuel. In recent years, when rising costs called for a switch from ribs to less wasteful sirloin, barbecue cooks began using chains and pulleys to enable the meat to be raised and lowered to desired levels for best cooking results.

   A sirloin roast, usually 3 1/2-inches thick, is the traditional beef cut for Santa Maria-style barbecues, although some cooks, such as those in the LASO group, prefer the ribs. The steaks are strung on flat steel rods before lowering them over a bed of red hot coals. Once cooked, the meat is sliced at the pit and served in large stainless steel pans, with natural juices poured on. Toasted, buttered French bread for sopping up the natural juices is a must.

   Chicken, a less costly alternative to beef, is generally used simultaneously, but most cooks steam the barbecued chicken halves in beer for added flavor. Some cooks in the LASO group also steam the ribs, although the practice is not considered traditional. The LASO group has also preserved the use of oak logs to cook the meat, just as their ancestors did in the old days.

   The LASO group had just fired up the barbecue with huge oak logs when we arrived, and Tony Martinez, one of the many volunteers who tend the barbecue wagon on weekends, was slapping huge slabs of beef ribs onto the grid, turning them over and over with his well-worn, charred gloves.

   In a pot simmering on a burner below the grids were the beans. Barbecue beans are part and parcel of the Santa Maria-style barbecue menu and are particularly unique because of the type of beans used. Pinquitos are said to have been the choice since the earliest days of ranching in the fertile valley, which today supplies 25% of the total production of broccoli to the nation. The valley, in fact, produces a good share of the nation's low crops, such as lettuces, cauliflower and sugar beets. Pinquitos are indigenous to the Santa Maria Valley and are grown by valley ranchers who produce only enough for local cooks. "Local demand takes care of the supply so you can't get them anywhere but Santa Maria," said Seavers. Anyone eager for the pinquitos may write to the Santa Maria Chamber of Commerce for a source (the address is given with the recipe below).

   Like the pinto bean, pinquitos are red in color, but smaller than the pinto. Pintos can be substituted, however.

   At the LASO barbecue station, Martinez speared a few ribs and dropped them on a paper plate along with a spoonful of beans. The plate then was passed to the women's auxiliary volunteers stationed in the trailer alongside. It is the women who prepare the accompanying rice, salad and salsa. And each has her own recipe for these side dishes. Several auxiliary women sit around the crammed table to dish up salsa into tiny cups. "We enjoy coming here on weekends," say the women.

   Here are the traditional recipes for the beans, salsa and macaroni and cheese as provided by the Santa Maria Valley Chamber of Commerce, as well as those supplied by the LASO group, which you can try for your next major barbecue.

   Menu for Santa Maria-Style Barbecue Barbecued Santa Maria Top Sirloin of Beef Santa Maria Style Barbecue Beans Santa Maria Barbecue Salsa Santa Maria Macaroni and Cheese Tossed Green Salad Toasted Sweet French Bread Coffee BARBECUED SANTA MARIA TOP SIRLOIN OF BEEF

   1 (3- to 4-pound) top sirloin of beef, choice-grade, 3 to 3 1/2-inches thick

   Salt, pepper

   Garlic salt

   Toasted French bread slices

   Sprinkle both sides of beef with salt, pepper and garlic salt to taste. Place on grill over medium-hot coals and barbecue until done as desired. Cut into slices, reserving natural juices. Pour reserved juices over meat. Serve with toasted French bread slices for dipping. Makes 4 to 6 servings.

SANTA MARIA BARBECUED CHICKEN

   6 chicken halves

   Garlic salt

   Pepper

   1 to 2 (12-ounce) cans beer

   Sprinkle chicken with garlic salt and pepper to taste. Grill over medium-hot coals until browned, about 30 to 40 minutes. Meanwhile, heat beer in pot large enough to hold chicken. Drop chicken in pot containing simmering beer, cover and steam 15 to 20 minutes or until chicken is very tender. Makes 6 to 12 servings.

LASO BARBECUED RIBS

   Use 6 to 8 pounds beef ribs instead of chicken in recipe for Santa Maria Barbecued Chicken. Cook 45 to 60 minutes on grill, then steam in beer 15 to 20 minutes.

SANTA MARIA-STYLE BARBECUE BEANS

   1 pound small pink beans (pinquito)

   1 slice bacon, diced

   1/2 cup diced ham

   1 small clove garlic, minced

   3/4 cup tomato puree

   1/4 cup red chili sauce (preferably Las Palmas brand)

   1 tablespoon sugar

   1 teaspoon dry mustard

   1 teaspoon salt

   Pick over beans to remove dirt and small stones. Cover with water and let soak overnight in large container. Drain. Cover with fresh water and simmer 2 hours or until tender.

   Saute bacon and ham until lightly browned. Add garlic. Saute 1 or 2 minutes longer, then add tomato puree, chili sauce, sugar, mustard and salt. Drain most of liquid off beans and stir in sauce. Keep hot over low heat until ready to serve. Makes 12 servings.

SANTA MARIA BARBECUE SALSA

   3 medium tomatoes, chopped

   1/2 cup finely chopped celery

   1/2 cup finely chopped green onions

   1/2 cup chopped California green chiles

   2 tablespoons snipped cilantro

   1 tablespoon vinegar

   Dash Worcestershire sauce

   Dash garlic salt

   Dash dried oregano, crushed

   Few drops hot pepper sauce

   Combine tomatoes, celery, green onions, chiles, cilantro, vinegar, Worcestershire, garlic salt, oregano and hot pepper sauce in bowl. Cover and let stand 1 hour to blend flavors. Makes 3 1/2 cups.

SANTA MARIA MACARONI AND CHEESE

   1 1/2 cups elbow macaroni

   2 tablespoons butter or margarine

   2 tablespoons flour

   1 1/2 cups shredded sharp Cheddar cheese

   2 cups hot milk

   3/4 teaspoon salt

   Dash pepper

   Cook macaroni according to package directions. Melt butter in skillet. Add flour and cook until flour is smooth and golden brown. Stir 1 cup cheese into hot milk and add to flour mixture, stirring constantly until well blended. Add salt and pepper. Turn into greased 1 1/2-quart casserole. Sprinkle with remaining 1/2 cup cheese. Bake at 350 degrees 35 to 40 minutes. Makes 6 to 8 servings. MARGARET ORTIZ'S HOMEMADE SANTA MARIA RICE

   1/4 cup oil

   2 cups rice

   2 cloves garlic, minced

   1 large onion, chopped

   2 (8-ounce) cans tomato sauce

   1 quart water

   1 teaspoon salt

   Dash pepper

   Heat oil in skillet. Add rice and cook, stirring, until grains are glazed. Add garlic and onion and saute until onion is tender. Add tomato sauce, water, salt and pepper. Bring to boil. Reduce heat and simmer over medium-low heat 20 to 30 minutes or until rice is tender and water is almost absorbed. Makes 6 servings.

LASO BARBECUE BEANS

   1 pound pinto or pinquito beans

   1 large onion, chopped

   2 cloves garlic, minced

   1/2 to 1 pound chorizo sausage

   1 teaspoon dry crushed oregano

   3/4 cup tomato puree

   1 teaspoon salt

   Cook pinto beans in water to cover until tender, about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Saute onion and garlic in large pot until onion is tender. Add chorizo and saute until chorizo is browned. Add oregano, tomato puree and salt. Add beans and water to pot. Bring to boil, adding more water if necessary to keep beans covered. Cook until heated through. Keep beans hot. Serve beans with slotted spoon to drain before serving. Makes 12 servings.

   Note: Pinquito are beans grown in local areas of Santa Maria. Contact the Santa Maria Chamber of Commerce, 614 S. Broadway, Santa Maria, Calif. 93456 for a source.

[Illustration]

PHOTO:   /  L. KENT WHITEHEAD Santa Maria beans traditionally contain ham and bacon, but the Latino group uses flavorful chorizo. Slabs of Santa Maria beef ribs and chicken barbecue on a hinge-and-pulley grid over an oak fire. Martha Martinez poses at takeout trailer advertising barbecue menu and rodeo queen candidate. /  PENNI GLADSTONE


      An Olympic `Blue Ribbon' Reunion
       MARY LOU LOPER.       Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext).       Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 25, 1985.                   p. 7


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 04:25:44 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:25:44 -0500
Subject: St. Joseph's Bread (1931)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.232544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ST. JOSEPH'S BREAD--114 Google hits
   Not in..you know.
   "St. Joseph's Bread" or "Pane de San Giuseppe" should be in various American Italian communities, but it appears to be a specialty in Buffalo, New York.
   I didn't find a whole lot of citations for it, but it certainly exists.  Perhaps the Chicago Tribune will help here.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.allbaking.net/ch/2001/december/grace2.html
St. Joseph's Bread
 (Pane di San Giuseppe)
  St. Joseph's Bread is a traditional bread served on St. Joseph's Day, March 19. It is an egg bread with a crumb that has a tighter, denser weave, allowing the dough to be used for fancy bread-sculpting designs. Breads in the form of crosses, staffs, wheat sheaves, images of St. Joseph, and braids of the Blessed Mother adorn the St. Joseph table and are eaten throughout the feast day. I make this bread throughout the year when I am in a sculpting mood.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.hungrybrowser.com/phaedrus/m122901.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: jmf
To: phaedrus
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: Pane Scunato

> This is a St. Joseph's day bread. It was a bakery  item in the
> Italian Bakeries on the days around this feast day in Buffalo N.Y
> Can you find this for me?
>

Hi,

I cannot locate anything with the name "pane scunato". However, there are lots of recipes for "St. Joseph's Bread", like the one below.

Phaed

ST. JOSEPH'S BREAD

This bread, called Pane di San Giuseppe, is traditionally made for the
Feast of St. Joseph on March 19.

2 to 3 C. unbleached flour
1/2 T. active dry yeast
1 T. honey
2/3 C. hot water
1/2 tsp. salt
2 T. butter
3 T. aniseed
1/3 C. golden raisins
Corn meal


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22joseph%27s+bread%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=33634399.7CD6%40concentric.net&rnum=9
NEW YORK
 Albany
  Grilled Shad
 Binghampton
  Speides/Speides Subs
 Buffalo
  Chicken Wings
  Beef on Weck
  Loganberry Pop
  Sponge Candy
  Butter Lamb
  St. Joseph's Bread
  Sahlen's Hot Dogs
 New York
  Bagels
  Jewish Deli (et. al.)
  Cheesecake
  Gibson Coctail
  New York Thin Crust Pizza
  Manhattan Clam Chowder
  Egg Cream
  Charlotte Russe
  Seltza
  Nathan's Hot Dogs
 Syracuse
  Salt Potatoes


(JSTOR)
Hoodoo in America
Zora Hurston
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 44, No. 174. (Oct. - Dec., 1931), pp. 317-417.
Pg. 359:  At eleven o'clock on March 19, St. joseph's Day, I rose...
   At high noon I was seated at the splendid altar.  it was dressed in the center with a huge communion cnadle with my name upon it set in sand, five large iced cakes in different colors, a plate of honeyed St. Jospeh's bread, a plate of serpent-shaped breads, spinach and egg cakes fried in olive oil, breaded Chinese okra fried in olive oil, roast veal and wine, two huge yellow bouquets, two red bouquets and two white bouquets and thirty-six yellow tapers and a bottle of holy water.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 04:42:03 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:42:03 -0800
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_resyllabification?=
In-Reply-To: <114.2a9a04cf.2ccdddb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.204203.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sunday, October 26, 2003, at 06:32 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote,
about my resyllabification examples:

> Some quick thoughts:
> I wonder what happens to the potential aspiration of the /p/ in a
> resyllabified "Sandrip Roy". With a word boundary between the /p/ and
> the /r/, I believe
> there is normally little if any aspiration of the /p/. But with the
> word
> boundary before the /p/, I'd tend to aspirate the /p/ quite strongly.
> Compare
> "night rate" with "Nye Trait"--for me, the /t/ in "night rate" often
> gets reduced
> to a glottal stop (therefore without any aspiration). Of course, in
> these
> examples the stress is on the initial syllable, not the second one,
> but even so, I
> think I would in general have a lot of trouble EVER resyllabifying
> words that
> end in vowel + /t/, I think--the aspiration of the /t/ after the word
> boundary
> would make the resyllabified word sound too different. Could e.g.
> "rabbit
> rot" become "rabbi trot"?
>
> I think the same holds for "Mystic River "--> "Misty Criver" -- was
> the guy
> really resyllabifying it, or were you just missing some cues? Wouldn't
> there be
> aspiration on the /k/ if it were truly syllable-initial?

i should have been clearer.  both "Misty Crivver" and "Sandi Proy" had
syllable-initial aspiration; that's what made them so very noticeable.

bob edwards tends to have ingressive variants of syllable-initial (but
not syllable-final -- it's some sort of fortition) b, so his
resyllabification is also easy to hear.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 04:59:09 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:59:09 -0500
Subject: Frango Mints (1918)
Message-ID: <SUN.26.OCT.2003.235909.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Were they "Franco" Mints, and was the name changed for political purposes?  Or is that a myth?  Are these really big in Seattle?  Chicago?
   There are 1,100 Google hits.  ProQuest wasn't much help here.  Again, the Chicago Tribune would've be nice to have.


(GOOGLE)
http://mhintze.tripod.com/seattle/frangos.htm
The Original Frango Mints

As everybody from Seattle knows, Frango mints were originally developed here and were sold in the Frederick & Nelson department stores (that is, until Frederick's went out of business in 1992 - now they are sold in the Bon Marche stores).  But during the time I spent living on the east coast, I was stunned to learn that people from other parts of the country think that Frangos are from Chicago.

So to set the record straight, here's the deal with the origin of Frango mints.  Frangos were invented in Seattle around the beginning of the twentieth century.  It was originally a frozen desert (Frango ice cream) that was served in the Frederick & Nelson tea room, and the candy form was introduced a few years later.

Then, in 1929, Donald Edward Frederick - the surviving co-founder of F&N - turned 69 and decided to retire.  He sold the business to Marshall Field & Co. for $6 million.  Recognizing a good thing when they bought it, Marshall Field then decided to produce and sell Frango mints in their flagship store in Chicago.  The Frederick & Nelson subsidiary, meanwhile, continued to produce and sell Frangos in the Northwest.

1n 1982, after mismanaging Frederick's nearly to death, Marshall Field sold Frederick & Nelson to Batus Inc. (the first of three owners in its final 10 years - none of which were able to bring F&N back to its former glory), but they retained the rights to Frangos (and licensed back to F&N the right to produce and sell Frangos in the Northwest).


(GOOGLE)
http://mhintze.tripod.com/seattle/frangos_article.htm
Chicago Sun-Times
 Sunday, March 14, 1999, Pg. 4

 The Bittersweet Truth
 by Bryan Smith

It is small and square, and when you drop it on your tongue it melts deliciously, oh-so-slowly into a yummy lump of mint and chocolate.

 And, of course, as everyone knows, it is Chicago -- maybe not quite Wrigley Field and Michael Jordan, but without question a city institution.

 Tourists take home boxes as gifts; families give them to friends as "a taste of Chicago."

 The Frango Mint belongs to Chicago. Right?

 Well, there's, er, this other city. Where the treats were invented. Where they were named. Where they still are made.

 Call Chicago the home of the Frango there, and they'll look at you as if you're claiming Starbucks and Microsoft, too.

 "I love Chicago," says Robert Spector, Seattle resident and author of The Legend of Frango Chocolate.

 "You can claim Michael Jordan. You just can't claim Frangos. I have a lot of friends from Chicago, and I have to set them straight."
 (...)

(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 FRANGO
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: CANDIES.  FIRST USE: 19180601.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19180601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
73100803
 Filing Date
September 22, 1976
 Change In Registration
CHANGE IN REGISTRATION HAS OCCURRED
 Registration Number
1064058
 Registration Date
April 19, 1977
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) MARSHALL FIELD & COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE 111 NORTH STATE STREET CHICAGO ILLINOIS 60690
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
L PAUL BURD
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   19970529
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


(TRADEMARKS)
Record Mark
 FRANGO
 Goods and Services
IC  030.  US 046.  G & S: candies, cookie mixes and cocoa.  FIRST USE: 19180601.  FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19180601
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
74331157
 Filing Date
November 16, 1992
 Published for Opposition
 April 6, 1993
 Registration Number
1779123
 Registration Date
June 29, 1993
 Owner
(REGISTRANT) MARSHALL FIELD & COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE 111 North State Street Chicago ILLINOIS 60690
(LAST LISTED OWNER) TARGET BRANDS, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT, BY CHANGE OF NAME MINNESOTA 1000 NICOLLET MALL TPS-3165 MINNEJAPLIS MINNESOTA 55403
 Assignment Recorded
ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
 Attorney of Record
SHAYNE L. BROWN
 Prior Registrations
1064058;1279145;1297227
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Affidavit Text
SECT 15.  SECT 8 (6-YR).  SECTION 8(10-YR) 20030804.
 Renewal
1ST RENEWAL   20030804
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 08:06:22 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 03:06:22 EST
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.030622.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "BBQ" is not an entry in the OED.  The OED definitely does initials--see
the first page for each letter.  No "BBQ"?  Not used enough?  Can't find three
citations?
   Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.
   Google has--are you ready for this?--5,450,000 hits for "BBQ."
   There are 356 "BBQ" trademarks, but most all are from the 1980s to the
present.
   Actually, "barbecue" should be "BBC," but that stands for something else.
   Ancestry should help here.  I searched "BBQ" with "barbecue*"
or"barbeque*" or "patio*" (for classified ads).  I also searched titles in the Library of
Congress.  I didn't check ProQuest.  There are two Marion newspaper "hits" for
1947, but they're actually from 1974.  I couldn't find anything before the
1950s!


   14 February 1951, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL (Reno, Nevada), pg. 13, col. 9
classified ad:
NEW home with fireplace, patio and b.bq.

   5 March 1953, OXNARD PRESS COURIER (Oxnard, California), pg. 19, col. 2
classified ad:
PRICE REDUCED on this beautiful, 2 bedroom home, has BBQ, water softener and
is a bargain at $2,000 down.

   26 November 1953, NEVADA STATE JOURNAL (Reno, Nevada), pg. 24, col. 6
classified ad:
Build a fence, patio or BBQ.

   26 June 1958, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. 3. col. 8
ad:
Chuck Steal...69c
BBQ WITH ADOLPH'S TENDERIZER--lb

   4 May 1961, EDWARDSVILLE INTELLIGENCER (Edwardsville, Illionois), pg. 10,
col. 1 ad:
Dukee BBQ Spice...11-oz. jar 89c

   26 July 1962, CHRONCILE-TELEGRAM (Elyria, Ohio), pg.15, col. 1 ad:
Androck...The Biggest Name in BBQ Tools


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 12:44:11 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:44:11 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <DD560B46-0819-11D8-A578-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.084411.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

It's how you identify real cheeseheads:

Us: wis-con-sin

Them: wi-scon-sin

This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
usual creation of a single onset is involved.

dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)


two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).

last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
accent).

undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 12:56:41 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:56:41 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bbc225b5d375@[131.151.65.119]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.085641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
have it (as a noun) as:

1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
2) penis
3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).

If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
know. Some of my best .........

dInIs

>This message is solely for Americans. British subscribers should read
>no further and promptly delete what follows.
>
>   Okay? All set? Here goes.
>
>   I quote from the _St. Louis Post Dispatch_ Oct. 26, 2003, pg.
>2C/1-3; article by Jerry Berger, title: "At least St. Louisan Didn't
>Call Prince Andrew a Bum!":
>   'RE-MEMBER, SUE: It's too bad Sue Engelhardt doesn't live in
>Pittsburgh.  Residents of that town have been subjected to days of
>lessons in the proper behavior toward royalty.  But Engelhardt, the
>princess of Peabody Coal, is a hometowner so excited at meeting HRH
>The Duke of York, (aka Prince Andrew) at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel
>Wednesday night, that she had the young prince baffled.  Engelhardt
>discussed coal-to-Great Britain, at which point Prince Andrew
>deadpanned, "We use gas!"  Turning to the prince, who was in town to
>raise money for the English Speaking Union-St. Louis Branch,
>Engelhardt told him, "You're the best tool we have."  Prince Andrew
>shot back, "I'm a tool?" For the record, Sue, "tool" is British slang
>for something that a member of the Royal Family is unlikely to
>mention in polite company.  Still, the allusion drew a faint smile
>from Andrew's otherwise scowling Special Branch security detail.
>Andrew's impromptu admission at the beginning of his prepared remarks
>that he finally understood the well-intentioned reference was the
>only spark in a lackluster, four-minute royal oration.'
>
>Gerald Cohen,
>an unabashed Anglophile

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 13:55:47 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:55:47 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_resyllabification?=
In-Reply-To: <200310270442.AOV75517@mirapointmr1.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.085547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:42 PM 10/26/2003, you wrote:
>i should have been clearer.  both "Misty Crivver" and "Sandi Proy" had
>syllable-initial aspiration; that's what made them so very noticeable.
>
>bob edwards tends to have ingressive variants of syllable-initial (but
>not syllable-final -- it's some sort of fortition) b, so his
>resyllabification is also easy to hear.

A friend of mine who immigrated to the US from Germany many years ago was
quite astonished to meet his new neighbor, Baugh Bellis, or so he
thought.  He and Bob Ellis now laugh about it.
But the resyllabification is quite real, especially with frequently uttered
constructions.  Often the resyllabification is driven by what Venneman
called 'syllable contact laws' (I know he didn't invent them, but he's
written on them in the past twenty years or so).  I'm pretty sure that's
what's going on with Mystic River, where __k] [r__ isn't as good a syllable
contact as __] [kr__.  And for Baugh Bedwards and his kin it may well be
that /b/'s are normally released in final position, permitting them to be
captured by the stressed onset-less following syllable--another syllable
law (Maximal Onset Principle).
Bybee's latest book argues for the role of frequency in phonological
restructuring, although I think she's wrong in her arguments about its
effect on allophones.  But still, if compounds are uttered frequently
enough they lose their phonological independence, at which point their
parts are available for purely phonology-driven realignment.

Geoff


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 14:09:56 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:09:56 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.080956.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis (+ ads-l),
  Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool" does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than among our British friends.
 
Gerald

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British and American English
	
	

	Gerald,
	
	I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
	have it (as a noun) as:
	
	1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
	2) penis
	3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
	
	If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
	know. Some of my best .........
	
	dInIs
	


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 14:28:42 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:28:42 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE93@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.102842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald,

Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
tool-talkers have the edge.

I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
wager.

dInIs

>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>among our British friends.
>
>Gerald
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>and American English
>
>
>
>       Gerald,
>
>       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
>       have it (as a noun) as:
>
>       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>       2) penis
>       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
>
>       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
>       know. Some of my best .........
>
>       dInIs
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 15:03:09 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:03:09 -0600
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.090309.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis (+ ads-l),
The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew "You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards (snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
 
Gerald

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British and American English
	
	

	Gerald,
	
	Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
	this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
	different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
	tool-talkers have the edge.
	
	I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
	of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
	unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
	the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
	wager.
	
	dInIs
	
	>Dennis (+ ads-l),
	>   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
	>telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
	>does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
	>is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
	>among our British friends.
	>
	>Gerald
	>
	>       -----Original Message-----
	>       From: Dennis R. Preston
	>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
	>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
	>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
	>and American English
	>
	>
	>
	>       Gerald,
	>
	>       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool" that we don't? I
	>       have it (as a noun) as:
	>
	>       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
	>       2) penis
	>       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty clearly derived from 2).
	>
	>       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the Brits, I need to
	>       know. Some of my best .........
	>
	>       dInIs
	>
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Oct 27 15:35:30 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:35:30 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <12c.33ee6dd3.2cce2bfe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.103530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.

FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.




Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Oct 27 15:35:30 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:35:30 -0500
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
In-Reply-To: <139.26e2ad3a.2ccd22ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.103530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 26 Oct 2003, at 8:14, James A. Landau wrote:

> Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
> will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.
>
> Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
> clumsy speakers?
>
>         - Jim Landau

I've never heard "beatify" pronounced that way.  I'd guess it's an
unusual misconstruing of the word.  Your interlocutors musn't have
been Catholic, eh?


>
> :) said Tom, parenthetically.


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:13:53 2003
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:13:53 -0500
Subject: Beatify/Beautify
In-Reply-To: <3F9CF4F2.18124.E5941ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.111353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> Twice in the past week I have heard someone in conversation ask whether Rome
>> will "beautify" Pope Pius XII.  In neither case was it a play on words.
>>
>> Is this a common malaprop?  Or have I just been listening to a couple of
>> clumsy speakers?

I have not heard <beautify>, but I have heard <beetify>.

Bethany

>>
>>         - Jim Landau
>
>I've never heard "beatify" pronounced that way.  I'd guess it's an
>unusual misconstruing of the word.  Your interlocutors musn't have
>been Catholic, eh?
>
>
>>
>> :) said Tom, parenthetically.
>
>
>Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
>Merriam-Webster, Inc.
>jdespres at merriam-webster.com
>http://www.merriam-webster.com
>

Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at utk.edu>, http://www.BethanyKayDumas.org
Professor of English & Chair, IDP Linguistics Committee
301 McClung Tower/The University of Tennessee
Knoxville, Tennessee 37996-0430 USA
Telephone: 865-974-6965, 865-974-6926 (FAX)
English Dep't: http://web.utk.edu/~english/
Linguistics: http://web.utk.edu/~germslav/lingdefault.html


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:20:40 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:20:40 -0400
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE94@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.122040.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Gerald,

Surely you jest. One line from one US speaker and imagined Brit
avoidences from you and there "must exist" such a differences? Ima
need a lil more than that.

dInIs

PS: Seems to be some age stuff going on. My quick survey of 6 US
English-speaking colleagues finds all the older ones (50+) firmly in
grasp of the penile meaning of "tool"; the younger ones were
mystified.



>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew
>"You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning
>this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards
>(snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her
>remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making
>that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits
>must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
>
>Gerald
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>and American English
>
>
>
>       Gerald,
>
>       Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
>       this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
>       different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
>       tool-talkers have the edge.
>
>       I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
>       of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
>       unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
>       the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
>       wager.
>
>       dInIs
>
>       >Dennis (+ ads-l),
>       >   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>       >telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>       >does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>       >is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>       >among our British friends.
>       >
>       >Gerald
>       >
>       >       -----Original Message-----
>       >       From: Dennis R. Preston
>       >       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>       >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       >       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>       >and American English
>       >
>       >
>       >
>       >       Gerald,
>       >
>       >       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool"
>that we don't? I
>       >       have it (as a noun) as:
>       >
>       >       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>       >       2) penis
>       >       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty
>clearly derived from 2).
>       >
>       >       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the
>Brits, I need to
>       >       know. Some of my best .........
>       >
>       >       dInIs
>       >
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Oct 27 16:42:54 2003
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:42:54 -0800
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bbc2c2c55350@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.084254.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
> Us: wis-con-sin
> Them: wi-scon-sin

yes, of course.  i knew that.  nice example, because this time
maximizing onsets *eliminates* aspiration.  entirely within a word --
though my pronunciation of Wisconsin has a secondary accent on the
first syllable, as if the name were Wiss Consin.  real cheeseheads
don't have the secondary accent.

arnold


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 16:47:46 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:47:46 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20resyllabification?=
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.114746.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

duhnis,
You mean that Cheeseheads have no aspirations in Wisconsin?
Your friend,
r?n

In a message dated 10/27/03 7:33:00 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:


> arnold,
> 
> It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
> 
> Us: wis-con-sin
> 
> Them: wi-scon-sin
> 
> This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
> bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
> usual creation of a single onset is involved.
> 
> dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
> 


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:05:35 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:05:35 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <9CB75E7C-089C-11D8-B815-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.130535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Good point. the aspiration on /k/ clearly disappears in the cluster.

Funny a half-baked southerner like me doesn't have any secondary
stress of the sort you indicate, but, since I delete initial
syllables (where possible), maybe that accounts for it. My favorite
example of this stress versus deletion interplay is 'Indianapolis.'
Southerners go for INduhNAPlus (with stress on the first) but quickly
go for NNNAPlus, with a monosyllabic but trimoraic first part.

dInIs





>On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>>Us: wis-con-sin
>>Them: wi-scon-sin
>
>yes, of course.  i knew that.  nice example, because this time
>maximizing onsets *eliminates* aspiration.  entirely within a word --
>though my pronunciation of Wisconsin has a secondary accent on the
>first syllable, as if the name were Wiss Consin.  real cheeseheads
>don't have the secondary accent.
>
>arnold

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:06:35 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:06:35 -0400
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <14a.25e6d173.2ccea632@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.130635.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Yes, I aspirated only after leaving the state.

>duhnis,
>You mean that Cheeseheads have no aspirations in Wisconsin?
>Your friend,
>r?n
>
>In a message dated 10/27/03 7:33:00 AM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  arnold,
>>
>>  It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>>
>>  Us: wis-con-sin
>>
>>  Them: wi-scon-sin
>>
>>  This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>>  bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>>  usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>>
>>  dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 17:09:25 2003
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:09:25 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20So=20there=20really?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20are=20differences=20between=20British=20and=20American?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20English?=
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.120925.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/27/03 10:30:24 AM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:


> Dennis (+ ads-l),
> The fact remains: The American? gushing socialite told Prince Andrew "You're 
> the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning this would have 
> for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards (snickers).? My guess is 
> she was mortified when she learned how her remark was perceived, and I can't 
> imagine a British socialite making that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic 
> difference in speech habits must exist to account for the American socialite's 
> faux pas.
> 
> Gerald
> 

It seems to me that the same response would have come forth from, say, John 
Kennedy Jr. and his bodyguards had someone in St. Louis said this to him under 
these circumstances ((I realize there is no way to put this exact thought 
experiment to the emp;irical test). TOOL = penis has been around in the US since 
at least the 1950s, and it is pretty well-known in American slang -- well-known 
enough to have made it into the latest AMERICAN HERITAGE, where it is listed 
as "vulgar slang." If Andrew was "astonished," it would only be because, in 
its unmarked usage, TOOL refers to some inanimate object. Calling him a "tool" 
without elaboration in a formal social context violates the Maxims of Manner 
and Quantity. It is about the same thing as saying, "You are our best shovel." 
Since the utterance did not make sense contextually, it caused the hearers to 
scan their brains for possible meanings ("tool of the capitalist conspiracy"? 
"fool"? "penis"?). 


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:13:41 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:13:41 -0500
Subject: So there really are differences between British and American
 English
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bbc2f5a64778@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.121341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:20 PM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Gerald,
>
>Surely you jest. One line from one US speaker and imagined Brit
>avoidences from you and there "must exist" such a differences? Ima
>need a lil more than that.
>
>dInIs
>
>PS: Seems to be some age stuff going on. My quick survey of 6 US
>English-speaking colleagues finds all the older ones (50+) firmly in
>grasp of the penile meaning of "tool"; the younger ones were
>mystified.


Well, as one of the Older Ones (seems more mythic when I capitalize),
while I am indeed firmly in grasp of the penile "tool", as it were, I
don't think I have the requisite metonymy (if that's the right trope)
to allow me to interpret "You're a tool" as "You're a prick" (on
either meaning).  For me, "tool" applied to men (as opposed to their
equipment), as in "He's a real tool", evokes 'nerd'--archaic slang,
probably--but nothing more eyebrow-raising.  The example below does
seem a bit sniggery, probably because *having* a tool does allow the
penile reading, although *being* a tool doesn't, and "You're the best
tool we have" involves both.

larry

>
>
>
>>Dennis (+ ads-l),
>>The fact remains: The American  gushing socialite told Prince Andrew
>>"You're the best tool we have," completely oblivious of the meaning
>>this would have for the Prince (astonishment) and his body-guards
>>(snickers).  My guess is she was mortified when she learned how her
>>remark was perceived, and I can't imagine a British socialite making
>>that gaffe. At least some trans-Atlantic difference in speech habits
>>must exist to account for the American socialite's faux pas.
>>
>>Gerald
>>
>>       -----Original Message-----
>>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>>       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 8:28 AM
>>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>>and American English
>>
>>
>>
>>       Gerald,
>>
>>       Anatomical tool (as you so coyly refer to it) is very well-known on
>>       this side of the Atlantic; perhaps we travel ( or have traveled) in
>>       different circles. I would have to be convinced that Brit
>>       tool-talkers have the edge.
>>
>>       I suspect that the difficulty in your citation is with the bareness
>>       of the "tool" (if i may). "You're a tool of the (place your
>>       unfavorite group here)" is, I bet, nonsnickerable on either side of
>>       the pond. "You're a tool" would get as big a chuckle on either I
>>       wager.
>>
>>       dInIs
>>
>>       >Dennis (+ ads-l),
>>       >   Meaning #2.  It's difficult to imagine a gushing British socialite
>>       >telling Prince Andrew that he's a tool.  So if anantomical "tool"
>>       >does exist in U.S. speech (and I don't remember ever hearing it), it
>>       >is spoken and understood much less on this side of the pond than
>>       >among our British friends.
>>       >
>>       >Gerald
>>       >
>>       >       -----Original Message-----
>>       >       From: Dennis R. Preston
>>       >       Sent: Mon 10/27/2003 6:56 AM
>>       >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>       >       Subject: Re: So there really are differences between British
>>       >and American English
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >
>>       >       Gerald,
>>       >
>>       >       I don't get it. What do the British have for "tool"
>>that we don't? I
>>       >       have it (as a noun) as:
>>       >
>>       >       1) implement (screwdriver, wrench,...)
>>       >       2) penis
>>       >       3) a silly, stupid, ineffective person (pretty
>>clearly derived from 2).
>>       >
>>       >       If there's an (n.) tool I don't know about among the
>>Brits, I need to
>>       >       know. Some of my best .........
>>       >
>>       >       dInIs
>>       >
>>
>>       --
>>       Dennis R. Preston
>>       University Distinguished Professor
>>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>>             Asian & African Languages
>>       Michigan State University
>>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 432-3099


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Mon Oct 27 17:25:07 2003
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:25:07 -0500
Subject: Frango Mints (1918)
In-Reply-To: <23B4159A.524B6BB3.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.122507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031027/4533da28/attachment.htm>

From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 17:36:39 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:36:39 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <a05010402bbc2c2c55350@[35.10.92.107]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.123639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:44 AM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>
>Us: wis-con-sin
>
>Them: wi-scon-sin

There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
well.



>This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>
>dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>
>
>two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
>especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
>people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
>morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
>the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
>some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
>Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
>just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
>again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
>
>last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
>took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
>like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
>"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
>name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
>moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
>accent).
>
>undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Oct 27 18:15:55 2003
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:15:55 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <p04320408bbc306ff701a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.131555.0500.>

For me (born in SE Michigan but spent my teen years in mUwOki), this is not
a matter of initial syllable deletion.  The initial [s] of "sconsin" is
syllabic.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:37 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: resyllabification


At 8:44 AM -0400 10/27/03, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>It's how you identify real cheeseheads:
>
>Us: wis-con-sin
>
>Them: wi-scon-sin

There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
well.



>This is more like the "misty crivver" example (than the "bah
>bedwards" one) since a cluster rather than the, I would think, more
>usual creation of a single onset is involved.
>
>dInIs (who, like you, also used to live in clumps)
>
>
>two-word expressions are sometimes resyllabified as single words,
>especially by people who have reason to say them a lot.  for many
>people, "last night" (with the pronunciation "las' night"), "this
>morning", and "this evening" are usually pronounced with the final s of
>the first syllable moved to begin the (accented) second syllable.  and
>some people do this with their own names; Bob Edwards, host of NPR's
>Morning Edition, regularly does this  to the final b of "Bob", and i
>just heard Sandip Roy do it to the final p of "Sandip" (in both cases,
>again moving a consonant into the syllable with primary accent).
>
>last week, i heard (from another room) the tv repeat what i at first
>took to be "Mister Crivver", but then when i got closer it was more
>like "Misty Crivver".  then i *saw* the commercial, an ad for the movie
>"Mystic River".  presumably the guy doing the voice-over had said the
>name so many times that he was treating it like a single word, so the k
>moved into the third syllable (once again the syllable with primary
>accent).
>
>undoubtedly there are more examples to be found.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Oct 27 18:59:40 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:59:40 -0500
Subject: resyllabification
In-Reply-To: <000601c39cb6$cd50a060$1c15fea9@ibm12258>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.135940.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:15 PM -0500 10/27/03, Herbert Stahlke wrote:
>For me (born in SE Michigan but spent my teen years in mUwOki), this is not
>a matter of initial syllable deletion.  The initial [s] of "sconsin" is
>syllabic.
>
>Herb
>

Yes, I recall that possibility now that you mention it, from my years
(1977-81) in Madison.  And with respect to my previous comment

>There was an article in the Times a few years back suggesting this as
>a shibboleth for Wisconsinites, and at least one of the hosts on
>ESPN's SportsCenter talks about players from "Sconsin", where the
>first (reanalyzed) syllable has been clipped off.  I was just doing
>the reanalysis of "mistake" in class today (the match doesn't go out
>for muh-stake but it does for the transparent mis-took, arguing for
>the resyllabification yielding the st- onset), and it should work for
>Wis-con-sin vs. Wuh-scahn-sin as well (or, obviously, "Sconsin") as
>well.

I knew the article was around here somewhere.  I located it in the
print-flesh and then found the Nexis version excerpted below.  The
observation on the shibboleth is from the (wonderful) novelist Lorrie
Moore, a native New Yorker who has for many years been a writer in
residence at UW-Madison.  (I've left in a little piece of the article
that will be nostalgic for other ex-Madisonians on the list.)
Interesting to see how a non-linguist describes the resyllabification
effects...

--Larry, a former neighbor of Lake Wingra and the Vilas Park Zoo
============================
New York Times

November 28, 1998, Saturday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section B; Page 9; Column 1; Arts & Ideas/Cultural Desk

  HEADLINE: Life Is Grim? Yes, but Good For a Laugh

  BYLINE:  By BRUCE WEBER

  DATELINE: MADISON, Wis.

  "Wa-SKAHN-sin," Lorrie Moore said, articulating the syllables
carefully, a lesson in local linguistics. "What you do, instead of
breaking the syllables between the S and the C, you break between the
A -- not usually in Wisconsin, of course -- and the S. So it's W-A,
then there's a break, and there's S-K-A, with a nasal A."

  She was entertaining herself, much the way the characters in her
stories and novels often do, playing with words, turning them this
way and that, being impossibly clever. In the stories, it's usually a
sign of a character's nervousness or discomfort or sense of crisis.

  "An attempt to amuse in times of deep unamusement," is the author's
description of the impulse.

  But Ms. Moore herself, a reluctantly transplanted New Yorker walking
the campus of the University of Wisconsin here, where she has taught
in the English department for 14 years, seemed genuinely amused: Look
how well I've assimilated!

  "I came here in the fall of 1984, and really, I thought 'Uh-uh,' "
she said. "I was 27, by far the youngest person in the department.
Everybody then was living the life that I'm living now, where you go
to bed at 9:30 because your kids get you up at 6:30. I actually like
Madison now. But it's a wonderful place to have a kid. When you start
to have a little arthritis in the knees, it's easy to get around."

  Dark-haired and dark-eyed, with a thoughtful expression but a ready
giggle, Ms. Moore, who is 41, has the look and demeanor of a pretty
college girl grown up -- or maybe, in jeans and a peacoat, a soccer
mom, though her son is only 4, a little young for soccer. Her husband
is a lawyer. They live in a house on Lake Wingra, "the most feted" of
Madison's three lakes, she said, though that doesn't sound right.
Lakes Monona and Mendota are larger, more central and better known.
Feted?

  "With an i," she said.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Oct 27 22:15:37 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:37 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1938, 1949)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.171537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BBQ

   ProQuest has it earlier.  There are tons of bad hits, so I may have missed something.  Oh, I hate searching these tiny classifieds!


Classified Ad 11 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 28, 1938. p. B7 (1 page):
(Col. 2--ed.)
   RAMBLING RANCH
$14,500--Rail fence and olive trees!
Built around a large brick patio
with BBQ, wonderful for parties!

Classified Ad 8 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 21, 1939. p. A19 (1 page):
(Col. 4--ed.)
$125, 3 B.Rm. Den, patio, B-B-Q, G. & W. pd.

Classified Ad 27 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jun 16, 1948. p. 11 (1 page):
FINE LOS ANGELES HOME
(...) Living room 15x25, fireplace, paneled wall; louver doors to dining room with adj. cupboard, patio, BBQ.

Display Ad 15 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 4, 1949. p. 15 (1 page):
   Simply serve hot VIRIGINIA PIG PORK BBQ on rice, noodles, mashed potatoes or corn bread.  Add a fresh vegetable and a green salad and you have a complete meal.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
OJL's Ga. - 1927-36
The black country music of Georgia.
Tampa Red;  Lillie Mae.;  Amos Easton;  Thomas Andrew Dorsey;  Barbecue Bob.;  Buddy Moss;  Sam Montgomery;  Sylvester Weaver;  Charley Lincoln;  Rufus Quillian;  Ben Quillian;  Eddie Head;  Kokomo Arnold;  Sara Martin;  Luther Magby;  J M Gates, Rev.
1980, 1927
English  Sound Recording : Music : Multiple forms :  LP recording 1 sound disc : analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ; 12 in.
Santa Monica, Calif. : Origin Jazz Library,
Contents: Down in spirit blues (Tampa Red) -- Jealous hearted man (Buddy Moss) -- Wise like that (Lillie Mae) -- King of knaves, no. 2 (Sam Montgomery) -- Rock pile blues (Sylvester Weaver) -- Hey lawdy mama (Bumble Bee Slim) -- Ugly papa (Charlie Lincoln) -- Keep it clean (Rufus & Ben Quillian) -- Lord, I'm the true vine (Eddie Head & family) -- Model "T" woman blues (Kokomo Arnold) -- Hear me beefing at you (Georgia Tom) -- Useless blues (Sara Martin) -- Crooked woman blues (B.B.Q. Bob) -- Jesus is getting ready for the great day (Luther Magby) -- David & Uriah (Rev. J.M. Gates).

(BBQ Bob or Barbecue Bob?  The earliest "BBQ" in OCLC WorldCat by year is 1974--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
SANTA MARIA BARBECUE

   From Ancestry.


   13 October 1982, MOUNTAIN DEMOCRAT (Placerville, California), pg. B-5, col. 1:
   The evening will feature a cocktail reception, Santa Maria western barbecue, fall season indoor polo match, celebrity polo match at half time, dancing to Country Sounds and South Loomis Quickstep.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Oct 27 22:40:39 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:40:39 -0600
Subject: 1898: 'Hygeia and "hot dogs"'--Is Hygeia a soft drink?
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.164039.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Feb. 1898, The Yale Record (a student humor publication) had an
item which spoke of students 'freely indulging in Hygeia and "hot
dogs" (last line of the passage below my signoff).  Would anyone know
what Hygeia is? It seems to be something like a soft drink, although
I don't remember seeing it elsewhere.

    The passage below is part of the material on "hot dog" discovered
by Barry Popik. This particular item was first reprinted in Comments
on Etymology, Nov. 1995, p. 12.

Gerald Cohen

Feb. 5, 1898 -- The Yale Record, vol. 26, no. 8, page title 'EDITORIAL':
        'These are indeed days of degeneracy.  The visible muscles of
the Owl inordinately twitched when he learned of the sudden departure
in the meetings of his wise and temperate scholars, from the practice
of Sophistry to the use of the genial and soothing weed.  A somewhat
similar smilet o'er came him when his "next entry neighbor" also
informed him that his cultured proteg?es [sic: -?e] had decided to
use no violence in regard to the manner in which they would adjust
themselves to their chairs, and that in future they would "sit
unrestrainedly" around the chosen apartments freely indulging in
Hygeia and "hot dogs".'


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 28 00:04:35 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:04:35 -0500
Subject: Foodtainment; Hand in the Cookie Jar (1933)
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.190435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FOODTAINMENT

   "Foodtainment" was used in the title of one of the papers of last year's Oxford Symposium (now published).  There aren't a whole lot of hits for it.

(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark FOODTAINMENT
Goods and Services IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Food and entertainment magazine for the public. FIRST USE: 20010628. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20010628
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76439818
Filing Date August 12, 2002
Published for Opposition June 17, 2003
Registration Number 2761289
Registration Date September 9, 2003
Owner (REGISTRANT) Lam, Steven INDIVIDUAL HONG KONG 1656 Mason Street San Francisco CALIFORNIA 94133
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

---------------------------------------------------------------
HAND IN THE COOKIE JAR

   The CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "with one hand in the till/cookie jar," meaning "discovered or caught in the act."  It's dated "20C."


City Hall Gossip
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 5, 1933. p. A4 (1 page:
   Charlie got caught with his hand in the cookie jar the other day, pulling one of the oldest and shabbiest of political tricks.


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Oct 28 02:15:24 2003
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:15:24 -0500
Subject: 1898: 'Hygeia and "hot dogs"'--Is Hygeia a soft drink?
In-Reply-To: <p04310100bbc1eb561cae@[131.151.65.119]>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.211524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... Would anyone know what Hygeia is?

Not for certain maybe. I gave a few possibilities on this list in March 2002.

My current guess is "Hygeia" = "Hygeia water" = [a brand of] "distilled
water" (there was such a brand at the time, and a pretty common one, I
believe). Maybe bottled water and hot dogs was a students' (humorous)
version of wine and beefsteak, or something like that.

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Oct 28 03:19:20 2003
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:19:20 -0800
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
In-Reply-To: <200310270308.h9R38g614926@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.27.OCT.2003.191920.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A JSTOR search turns up a bibiography reference in a review article in the
The American Economic Review, Vol. 29, No. 4. (Dec., 1939) to a
publication by D. Lasser called The Sixty Dollars at Sixty Pension
Plan: Minimum Security for our Senior Citizens, published by the
Workers Alliance of America. No date for the Lasser is given, and I
can't find it in the Stanford, Berkeley, or LOC catalogues, so
there's no way to tell if it's an antedate for the cites below.

It'd be interesting to know who first came up with this one -- it has
the sound of a New Deal coining. It begins to show up a lot in the
economics & finance literatures around 1940.

Geoff Nunberg


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Senior Citizen (1937)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Yes, it's earlier on ProQuest's LOS ANGELES TIMES.  That's
>California politics for you.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--LOS ANGELES TIMES)
>       New Pension Plan Offered
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Apr 15, 1937.                   p. 5 (1 page):
>    SACRAMENTO, April 14. (Exclusive)--Robert Noble of Hollywood took
>the rostrum in the Assembly today and addressed members of the
>Legislature on his "roperty (sic) certificates" for senior citizens
>of California.
>
>       LETTERS To THE TIMES
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Jul 4, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
>    Every "senior citizen" who would receive his "$30 every Thursday"
>would spend the warrants as quickly as possible to avoid having to
>attach the weekly 2-cent stamp required.
>
>       Just Supposing It Happened
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Sep 25, 1938.                   p. A4 (1 page):
>    it will be over the determined protest of John Taxpayer, indeed,
>that either the "senior citizens," or those who fell for their
>optimism currency, collect even the full amount per ticket
>represented by the stamps licked and stuck thereon.
>
>       Haight Assails Pension Plan
>               Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).       Los
>Angeles, Calif.: Oct 12, 1938.                   p. 6 (1 page)
>
>       THE GREAT GAME OF POLITICS
>        FRANK R KENT.       Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File).
>Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 28, 1938.                   p. 7 (1 page):
>    WASHINGTON, Oct. 27.--One of the major developments in American
>politics, frequently commented on in recent months, is the
>multiplicity of new schemes for granting and increasing pensions to
>the aged--or, as some politicans are tenderly beginning to call
>them, "our senior citizens."
>
>
>(PROQUEST--WASHINGTON POST)
>       Townsend Successors Still Strong In West
>        By Elmer T. Peterson. Special Correspondence of The Post..
>The Washington Post  (1877-1954).       Washington, D.C.: Jul 31,
>1938.                   p. B9 (1 page):
>    The build-up is that every "senior citizen" has done his share of
>the world's work and is now entitled to a living.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Oct 28 09:05:00 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:05:00 EST
Subject: Kaiser & Kipfel (1885)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.040500.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISC.

   I was busy running around today telling the Gotham Center and my city
council representative about the history of New York City.

TGIF--The ad that inspired my recent "TGIF" post is also in print in the
November 2003 GOURMET, first two pages.  It's for the New BMW 5 Series.

GOURMET--A GUIDE TO AMERICA'S BEST ROADFOOD by Jane and Michael Stern--This
is a 16-page supplement to the November GOURMET.  There's a photo of Ben's
Chili Bowl, Washington, D.C., that's known for "half smoke" (see recent post).
It's a nice supplement that...the Sterns did 20 years ago, almost word-for-word.
 I love the Sterns, but they just have to retire.  They get paid for decades
of the same stuff; I do new stuff every day in my spare time from parking
tickets, and make nothing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
KAISER & KIPFEL

   Is "kipfel" recorded anywhere?  There are over 1,000 Google hits.
   This Ancestry article is a nice find.


   22 September 1885, TRENTON TIMES (Trenton, New Jersey), pg. 3, col. 1:
_THE BREAD-MAKERS._

_HOW THE VARIOUS KINDS ARE MADE_
   _TO SUIT ALL TASTES._

_Steam Bakeries and the Bread They_
   _Make--"Boston Brown," "Home-_
   _Made," and Other Varieties_
   _Bread and People._
[Philadelphia Times.]
(...)
   A recent invention in bread is what is known in the trade as "steam."  It
isw made of the very best flour and baked in air-tight pans that enclose it on
all sides.  It is thus baked in its own steam and has a fine flavor.  The
tins mould it into a symmestrical loaf about twelve inches in length, perfectly
round and squared at the ends.
      VARIOUS TRADE NAMES.
   Only two bakers in the city make Boston brown bread, which is composed of
yellow corn and rye meal sweetened with molasses or brown sugar.  One baker
devotes his attention to what is known as aerated bread.  This is manufactured
altogether by steam and is peculiarly light and spongy.  While in course of
preparation the dough is charged with carbonic acid gas, which renders the bread
light without detracting in any way from its nutritious qualities,  Dyspeptics
can eat it without inconvenience.
   One of the most popular breads is a round compact loaf, which is known in
the trade as "home-made."  A small quantity of white corn meal is mixed with
the flour, which makes the bread firm and moist and renders it possible to keep
it several days in a fresh condition.
   The Schwartz and Kimmel bread, which is found on the lunch counter of
every beer saloon and is much prized and almost exclusively eaten by the Germans,
is made of black rye.  Its manufacture is confined to the small German bakers.
 Two or three Jewish bakers make the wafer-like Passover bread, which is
eaten by the failthful Jews during the great feast from which it takes its name.
   The large bakers have a variety of trade names for their goods, such as
Vienna, steam, cream, cream French, cream Vienna, home-made, bran and rye,
breakfast rolls, finger rolls, Vienna rolls, kaiser semmel and kipfels.  Among the
bakers if cheaper breads their goods are classed as rolls, twists, box and
brick.  The long and square Vienna loaves and their various imitations are most
eaten.
(...)
      BREAD AND PEOPLE.
   New Englanders are very fond of brown bread, which they eat with their
Sunday morning dish of baked beans.  During the week they eat the ordinary grades
of bread and are particularly partial to fresh tea-biscuit at night.  The
southerners eat corn bread, smoking hot, and their wheat bread is usually small,
flat soda biscuits, which are not palatable when cold.  Strange as it may
seem, the negro never eats corn bread if he can help it and prefers his wheat
bread warm and spongy.
   The English and Irish are fond of a peculiar bread baked on the hearth in
round loaves.  They like hteir bread cold and do not object if it is stale.
Americans as a class prefer wheat bread as white and fresh as possible.  The
Germans eat rye bread almost exclusively and are particularly fond of the
kimmel or seed bread.
   "The Italians and Chinese eat stale bread exclusively," said a baker, "and
I never yet heard of an Italian or a Chinaman suffering from dyspepsia or
the toothache."


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Tue Oct 28 09:30:14 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:30:14 -0000
Subject: Tiger
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.093014.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Further to the Bulletin quotation that I put forward, regarding the possible origins of 'tiger' as in 'three times three and a tiger', here is the relevant material from Dallas C. Dickey, Seargent S. Prentiss: Whig Orator of the Old South (1945; reprint 1970) p. 394:

Another story widely circulated and remembered is that of how Prentiss spoke from the top of a lion's cage. In one of his political campaigns he was followed by a traveling circus, much to his annoyance. Just as Prentiss was in the midst of a speech, the circus, with its elephants, lions, and other animals, would be seen approaching. Their attention distracted, many of the crowd would leave to view the circus on the march, causing Prentiss to feel that his campaign was being injured. Finally he went to the circus manager and registered a complaint. The man replied that by following Prentiss he could get his best crowds. An agreement was worked out whereby they traveled together, the proprietor allowing Prentiss to finish his speech before he opened the circus to the crowd. In addition, he permitted Prentiss to use as a speaker's platform one of the circus wagons with a lion's cage on it. Sometimes for a better position from which to harangue the crowd, Prentiss would climb on top of the cage. This novel and elevated position added fire to his speaking. When he wished for added commotion, especially when attacking his opponents, he would prod the lion into roaring by pushing his cane through the bars of the cage.

While it fits with the idea of goading a wild animal, the Bulletin's hearsay story seems to have mixed its species. Pity.

Jonathon Green


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Oct 28 13:47:04 2003
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:47:04 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.084704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
: On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

: > Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.

: FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.

Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)

There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
not an abbreviation.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Oct 28 13:59:38 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:59:38 -0500
Subject: Firenado
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.085938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031028/c0e47381/attachment.htm>

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Oct 28 14:50:09 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:09 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <06bf01c39d5a$0395c3f0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.095009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 8:47, David Bowie wrote:

 > Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
> sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
> as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
> BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
> the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)
>
> There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
> least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
> not an abbreviation.
>
Not being a definer, I can't speak authoritatively about this, but if
"BBQ" is pronounced like "barbecue," I would take that as
confirmation that it's an abbreviation, not an acronym.  If it were an
acronym (i.e., an intitialism that has achieved the status of an
independent word, as opposed to an initialism that merely stands
for a word), wouldn't you expect it to be pronounced something like
"beebeecue"?  And wouldn't that pronunciation sometimes take
inflections, as in  "summer beebeecues" or "I had beebeecued ribs
on Saturday"?  I don't think such pronunciations are attested,
though.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:01:33 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:01:33 -0500
Subject: Senior Citizen (1937)
In-Reply-To: <p05111b06bbc38d614c02@[10.0.1.5]>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.120133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> A JSTOR search turns up a bibiography reference in a review article in the
> The American Economic Review, Vol. 29, No. 4. (Dec., 1939) to a
> publication by D. Lasser called The Sixty Dollars at Sixty Pension
> Plan: Minimum Security for our Senior Citizens, published by the
> Workers Alliance of America. No date for the Lasser is given, and I
> can't find it in the Stanford, Berkeley, or LOC catalogues, so
> there's no way to tell if it's an antedate for the cites below.

The University of Michigan Library has this; it's dated 1939.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:10:00 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:10:00 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.121000.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, I do pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue", while still also saying "barBQ" when I am thinking "barbeque".

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:50 am
Subject: Re: BBQ (1951)
> Not being a definer, I can't speak authoritatively about this, but if
> "BBQ" is pronounced like "barbecue," I would take that as
> confirmation that it's an abbreviation, not an acronym.  If it
> were an acronym (i.e., an intitialism that has achieved the status of an
> independent word, as opposed to an initialism that merely stands
> for a word), wouldn't you expect it to be pronounced something like
> "beebeecue"?  And wouldn't that pronunciation sometimes take
> inflections, as in  "summer beebeecues" or "I had beebeecued ribs
> on Saturday"?  I don't think such pronunciations are attested,
> though.
>
> Joanne
>
>
> Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
> Merriam-Webster, Inc.
> jdespres at merriam-webster.com
> http://www.merriam-webster.com
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Oct 28 17:16:20 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:16:20 -0800
Subject: Firenado
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031028085932.0263ba00@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.091620.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our local (Portland, OR) newscast last night called it a "fire devil" (cf.
"dust devil").

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:59 AM -0500 Geoff Nathan
<an6993 at WAYNE.EDU> wrote:

> I thought I heard a brand new word this morning on CNN during the 5:50 AM
> newscast when they showed film of a fire whirlwind in Southern California
> that they called (some of the time) a 'firenado'.  I checked Google and
> the word has actually been around a couple of years but the search
> generated only 7-9 hits.  It's not in the ADS-L archives.
>
> Google helpfully asked whether I meant 'Fernando'.
>
> Geoff



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Oct 28 19:13:20 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:13:20 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <4343afa43452ec.43452ec4343afa@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.141320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 12:10, George Thompson wrote:

> Actually, I do pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue", while still also saying "barBQ" when I am thinking "barbeque".

Well, if you both pronounce BBQ as "beebeecue" and inflect it in
the same way a noun (or a verb) would be inflected, then you're
definitely using it as an acronym, according to the style here.  And
if enough people come to use BBQ that way, the label in M-W
dictionaries will be changed; but so far that hasn't happened.

The editor in charge of abbreviations here, Kathleen Doherty, tells
me that the distinction between an abbreviation and an acronym
has grown murkier in the past ten or fifteen years -- that words
formerly thought of strictly as abbreviations (such as FBI) are now
sometimes being called acronyms.  The definition in C11 has been
changed to reflect this circumstance, though M-W definers still
hew to the old distinction in their labelling of entry-words.  Only
initialisms that are pronounced rather than spelled out or that
behave syntactically like full-fledged words (such as radar, snafu,
TKO, and OD) currently get the "acronym" label.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Oct 28 22:38:26 2003
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:38:26 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <06bf01c39d5a$0395c3f0$84fbab0a@DJJ3J631>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.173826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word appears very early in colonial and exploration literature, as a
Spanish word, I believe.  I can't recall the spelling, but it's something
like "barbecoa"--a guess from long-ago research on American Indian contacts
with explorers.  But it's definitely a real word.

At 08:47 AM 10/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>From:    "Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
>: On 27 Oct 2003, at 3:06, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>: > Merriam-Webster has an entry for "BBQ," but no date.
>
>: FYI, we date acronyms, but not abbreviations.
>
>Is "BBQ" really an abbreviation? I wonder because i conducted a series of
>sociolinguistic interviews a few years ago where i asked about barbecue--and
>as i recall, i had a couple people inform me that the correct spelling is
>BBQ, and that "barbecue" is just something that people came up with to match
>the pronunciation. (The reverse of a spelling pronunciation, i suppose?)
>
>There's definitely some folk etymology going on here, but it seems that, at
>least in some people's minds, BBQ is an actual spelling of an actual word,
>not an abbreviation.
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 01:20:36 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:20:36 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Strip Poker"
In-Reply-To: <p05111b06bbc38d614c02@[10.0.1.5]>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.202036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

strip poker (OED 1929)

1914 _L.A. Times_ 9 Apr. II9  Juvenile officers of the city and county
held a consultation yesterday over the principals in the "strip poker"
party that is alleged to have occurred in a house at No. 1261 West
Twenty-third street, Monday night, when the participants were arrested.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 29 02:20:13 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:20:13 EST
Subject: Antedating of "Strip Poker"
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.212013.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/28/2003 8:21:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU writes:


>
> strip poker (OED 1929)
>
> 1914 _L.A. Times_ 9 Apr. II9  Juvenile officers of the city and county
> held a consultation yesterday over the principals in the "strip poker"
> party that is alleged to have occurred in a house at No. 1261 West
> Twenty-third street, Monday night, when the participants were arrested.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>

  I'll take those panties and raise you...

   5 March 1912, FORT WAYNE SENTINEL (Fort Wayne, Indiana), pg. 2, col. 7:
5c LYRIC 5c
TONIGHT
EXTRAVAGANCE
STRIP POKER
VAUDEVILLE


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Wed Oct 29 03:19:54 2003
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:19:54 -0500
Subject: Prince Andrew
Message-ID: <TUE.28.OCT.2003.221954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a Brit and a former employee of the Royal Household, it seems to me that
Gerald has come closest to a possible explanation of the various reactions to
someone calling Prince Andrew a 'tool':

"It seems to me that the same response would have come forth from, say, John
Kennedy Jr. and his bodyguards had someone in St. Louis said this to him under
these circumstances ((I realize there is no way to put this exact thought
experiment to the emp;irical test). TOOL = penis has been around in the US since

at least the 1950s, and it is pretty well-known in American slang -- well-known

enough to have made it into the latest AMERICAN HERITAGE, where it is listed
as "vulgar slang." If Andrew was "astonished," it would only be because, in
its unmarked usage, TOOL refers to some inanimate object. Calling him a "tool"
without elaboration in a formal social context violates the Maxims of Manner
and Quantity. It is about the same thing as saying, "You are our best shovel."
Since the utterance did not make sense contextually, it caused the hearers to
scan their brains for possible meanings ("tool of the capitalist conspiracy"?
"fool"? "penis"?)."

There's probably more to add by way of clarification, though.  Two things:

-  My impression is that for all ages, the use of 'tool' = 'penis' is marked as
an Americanism for us.  It certainly is for me.  I don't think it's in common
use on the other side of the pond - again, certainly in my generation it isn't.
 It's obviously common enough knowledge - though not necessarily common in use
- for the bodyguards to have seen a joke, though.  Admittedly, I'm not an
'Older One', and haven't asked any, so can't speak for *them*.

-  Royal stuff:  Regarding the 'social meaning' of calling Prince Andrew a tool,
while the Maxims probably do apply, I think that the main reason why the Prince
was 'astonished' might have been that the use of the word 'tool' implies, in a
very egalitarian way, that the Royals are available to be 'used', or at least
taken advantage of, by people, organisations etc for publicity.  What the
speaker meant was clearly that Prince Andrew's support was her organisation's
best asset in its search for public recognition, funding, or whatever.  The
word 'tool' implies that they should be able to make directed use of Royal
patronage, though, and that might have been seen as a little unfortunate.  The
Royals frown on having their name linked with organisations in such a direct
manner, because it might be seen as unfair to other organisations that are just
as worthwhile but don't have the name;  look at the uproar when the Princess
Diana Memorial Trust was set up and immediately became very, very rich because
of the high-profile name.  Since then, the Royals are wary of things like that
because of a possible perception of unfairness.

Damien
==================
halldj at babel.ling.upenn.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Oct 29 12:45:50 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:45:50 EST
Subject: "Come on down!"
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.074550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The "Come on down!" guy from THE PRICE IS RIGHT tv game show has died.
   People have used the phrase before.  I've been telling women to "Come on 
down to my place, baby" for a long time.
   It remains to be seen if, in the great beyond, he'll "come on down" or 
"come on up" for his use of this catchphrase.
    
  
(NEW YORK TIMES)
Rod Roddy, Announcer on 'Price Is Right,' Dies at 66

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: October 29, 2003

LOS ANGELES, Oct. 28 (AP) ? Rod Roddy, the flamboyantly dressed announcer on 
the game show "The Price Is Right" whose booming, jovial voice invited lucky 
audience members to "Come on down!" for nearly 20 years, died here on Monday. 
He was 66.

He had colon and breast cancer said his longtime agent, Don Pitts.

Mr. Roddy's announcing stints included "Love Connection" (1981-85) and "Press 
Your Luck" (1983-86), but "The Price is Right" earned him his greatest fame. 
"The Price is Right" remains one of television's most popular game shows.

Mr. Roddy, whose real name was Robert Ray Roddy, was born on Sept. 18, 1937, 
in Fort Worth, Tex., Mr. Pitts said.

He was a graduate of Texas Christian University and a popular disc jockey in 
Texas when he decided to expand his career in Hollywood, his agent said.

His versatility made him a popular voice-over artist for commercials in Los 
Angeles, Mr. Pitts said. He got his big break in television with the 1977-81 
satire "Soap."

Mr. Roddy taped his last show about two months ago.

He left no immediate survivors.
 


From BDavis at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU  Wed Oct 29 12:56:41 2003
From: BDavis at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (Davis, Boyd)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:56:41 -0500
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.075641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm asking for my UNC-C colleague, Fred Smith, disjecta at cetlink.net, who's
looking at style in authors publishing just prior to WWII:

Is it true that there was in the last century, sometime prior to WWII,
something of an "explosion" of words using the prefix "un-"?  I have found
in the OED SUPPLEMENT such words as the following:  "unpublished" (1934),
"unphysiologi-cal" (1934), "unquote" (1935), "unpornographic" (1938),
"unproble-matic" (1944), etc.

He asks that people direct mail to him, as he is not a member; if the list
discusses this, I'll collect and send it to him. Thanks! Boyd Davis


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 14:13:50 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:13:50 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <33767DC23FBEA24D85477AF57572420512935FCF@email.uncc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.091350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:56 AM -0500 10/29/03, Davis, Boyd wrote:
>I'm asking for my UNC-C colleague, Fred Smith, disjecta at cetlink.net, who's
>looking at style in authors publishing just prior to WWII:
>
>Is it true that there was in the last century, sometime prior to WWII,
>something of an "explosion" of words using the prefix "un-"?  I have found
>in the OED SUPPLEMENT such words as the following:  "unpublished" (1934),
>"unphysiologi-cal" (1934), "unquote" (1935), "unpornographic" (1938),
>"unproble-matic" (1944), etc.

Dear Fred (and list),

I think there are a number of separate issues involved here.  I've
written a couple of papers on un-words recently, in which I try to
distinguish them by category based on whether we're dealing with
un-adjectives, un-verbs (reversatives like "unzip", "undo"), or
un-nouns ("uncola", "unmartini", and the related cases involving
compounds, going back to Lewis Carroll's "unbirthday present").  Un-
has always been quite productive in forming adjectives from other
adjectives, especially morphologically complex ones with a stem in
deverbal -able or participial -ed , -ing, to the point that
dictionaries may not list many un-adjectives separately.  The example
I like to use is "unxeroxable", which would never be listed (indeed,
"xeroxable" probably wouldn't be either) but could readily be
constructed as needed.  Totally productive, no lexical listing.
Hence "unproblematic", "unpublished", "unphysiological", and many
other such forms are being "created" all the time without our being
conscious of this or registering the result as a new word.  This is a
case where derivational morphology approaches inflectional in its
productivity. "Unpornographic" is a bit trickier because generally
and all things being equal (as recognized by Jespersen, Zimmer, and
others) un- prefers semantically positive or neutral stems, thus
yielding evaluatively neutral or negative outputs, whence the
distinctions between unhappy and *unsad, unkind vs. *uncruel, and so
on.  This makes "unpornographic" somewhat marked and perhaps a bit
more remarkable, although I do have cites for e.g. "unsullen".  Your
"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)

  If there's been any explosion of un-words over the post-WWII (and
more specifically since the early 1970's), I'd argue it's been among
un-nouns, often but not always created for jocular and/or commercial
purposes, sparked (it would appear) by the use of "un-cola" in
commercials for 7 Up.  With Beth Levin I've been collecting these
innovations for some time and would be happy to attach a copy of our
list (with contexts of occurrence) to Fred on request, or the papers
I've written on the topic.  But none of the examples you cite above
exemplify un-nouns, so I'm not sure that's what you're really asking
about.

best,
Larry Horn


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 14:31:23 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:31:23 -0500
Subject: oop's
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bbc576e71e5d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.093123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just reread my message and discovered that I seem to have written

>  ...Your
>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category...

I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm
exams.

larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct 29 15:24:36 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:24:36 -0800
Subject: oop's
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.072436.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/29/03 06:31AM >>>
>  ...Your"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category...
>I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
>occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm exams.
>larry

What's a 'dergraduate'?
Fritz


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Wed Oct 29 16:18:45 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:18:45 -0500
Subject: BBQ (1951)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20031028173620.0235cbd0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.111845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 28 Oct 2003, at 17:38, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> The word appears very early in colonial and exploration literature, as a
> Spanish word, I believe.  I can't recall the spelling, but it's something
> like "barbecoa"--a guess from long-ago research on American Indian contacts
> with explorers.  But it's definitely a real word.

Absolutely positively. English "barbecue" has been attested since
1609, and is descended from American Spanish "barbacoa,"
meaning "framework for supporting meat over a fire."  We know that
for certain, but Mr. Bowie's informant did not, and apparently
inferred that BBQ was the original form, rather than an abbreviation
that was formed on the basis of the original "barbecue."  Mr. Bowie
took that as a sort of "folk etymology," though I think what he
meant by that was "a word history inferred by a speaker unaware of
the linguistic facts," rather than what a  lexicographer understands
by folk etymology, which is a sort of respelling or transliteration of
a word whose elements are not semantically transparent to a
speaker into elements that are transparent and familiar but are
totally irrelevant to the etymology of the word as originally formed:
e.g., the cockroach (cock = "a bird," roach = "a fish") for
cucaracha "a bug."  Maybe what Mr. Bowie meant to suggest was
that his informant's reinterpretation of the abbreviation BBQ as a
word effectively transformed it into one, in the same way that a folk
etymology, as traditionally understood, results in the creation of a
"real word" despite the erroneous historical assumptions that led to
its creation.  The difference here, though, is that BBQ had already
existed as an abbreviation rather than having been created from
whole cloth; it's simply been reinterpreted as something other than
what it originally was.  But, more to the point, I'm not sure it can
really be said to constitute a new word if it's being pronounced
exactly like "barbecue."  In my mind, Mr. Bowie's informants are
actually using the word "barbecue" and incorrectly assuming an
identity (rather than a symbolic association) between it and "BBQ."
In other words, they're mentally misspelling the word.

But I suppose product-oriented lexicographers are more inclined to
make black-and-white distinctions than process-oriented linguists
are. It would be interesting to hear how others of you (besides Mr.
Bowie) see this situation.

Joanne

Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Oct 29 16:30:56 2003
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:30:56 -0400
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <p04320401bbc576e71e5d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.123056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry Horn writes:
>  Your
>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
~~~~~~~~~
On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
A. Murie


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 19:25:11 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:11 -0500
Subject: oop's
In-Reply-To: <sf9f6b38.010@sks-hermes.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.142511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/29/03 06:31AM >>>
>>   ...Your"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>describe it's category...
>>I'll have to wash my keyboard out with soap; I can only plead
>>occupational disability caused by reading 32 undergraduate midterm exams.
>>larry
>
>What's a 'dergraduate'?
>Fritz

 From the German obviously--
Der graduate   vs.    Undergraduate

L


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 29 19:33:38 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:33:38 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bbc599d6414f@[12.107.146.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.143338.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:30 PM -0400 10/29/03, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry Horn writes:
>>   Your
>>"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>>"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>>(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
>~~~~~~~~~
>On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
>do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
>attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)

that i have.

I don't think of "unquote" as a verb either, though, since I can't
use it in contexts like "I unquoted his remarks" but only as in the
context above.  In one of the papers of mine that I mentioned, I
briefly discuss "unitalics" and "unbold", which are somewhat
analogous to "unquote" in serving as free-standing metalinguistic
commands.  I think there is a derivative use of "unbold" and
"unquote" as verbs (although I'm not sure how that would work with
"unitalics"):  I told the copy-editor to unbold and unquote that
passage.  (i.e. to remove the boldface and the quote marks)   Again,
though, that's different from the "quote-unquote-linguist" above.



Larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Oct 29 20:26:30 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:26:30 -0800
Subject: oop's
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.122630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>What's a 'dergraduate'?
>Fritz

 >From the German obviously--
>Der graduate   vs.    Undergraduate

Oh yes, of course


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Oct 29 20:50:21 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:50:21 -0500
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.155021.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I admit.  But nobody's perfect.)

There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
Subject: Re: UN-words

> Larry Horn writes:
> >  Your
> >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
> >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
> >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
> >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
> ~~~~~~~~~
> On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
> equivalent to
> do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
> attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
> A. Murie
>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Wed Oct 29 21:52:48 2003
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:52:48 -0600
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.155248.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's how we used to do/say it in copy editing and publishing: quote-endquote.

SOD



George Thompson wrote:

> I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I admit.  But nobody's perfect.)
>
> There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
> Subject: Re: UN-words
>
> > Larry Horn writes:
> > >  Your
> > >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
> > >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
> > >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
> > >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
> > ~~~~~~~~~
> > On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
> > equivalent to
> > do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
> > attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
> > A. Murie
> >


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Oct 29 23:19:09 2003
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:19:09 -0500
Subject: UN-words
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bbc599d6414f@[12.107.146.72]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.181909.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, sagehen wrote:

#On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally equivalent to
#do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.

Quote/unquote are metawords. They don't operate within the grammar of
the sentence, but ON it. You can insert them anywhere at all, as long as
you keep them balanced, because a quotation can begin or end anywhere at
all.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 03:41:59 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:41:59 EST
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public Library)
Message-ID: <WED.29.OCT.2003.224159.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   We'll start with the "miracles."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MIRACLES

   I never posted this.  It's the first mention of my work on a local tv
newscast.  Of course, my name isn't mentioned with my work, and I got no money,
and it's twelve years too late, but hey, that still counts as a miracle in New
York and my life.

http://www.nbc4.com/answerstoaskliz2003/2166421/detail.html
NYC Big Apple and New Orleans Big Easy, House Appraisal, Rebates: 4/29/03

Q: I would like to know why New York City is called the Big Apple and why New
Orleans is called the Big Easy? I've been wondering these things for ages.

A: WE WENT TO SEVERAL SOURCES TO GET YOUR ANSWER. THE NEW YORK CITY "BIG
APPLE" REFERENCE IS ATTRIBUTED TO NEW YORK CITY MORNING TELEGRAPH REPORTER JOHN J.
FITZGERALD.

HE APPARENTLY HEARD THE EXPRESSION BEING USED BY AFRICAN AMERICAN STABLE
HANDS IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1921. THEY CALLED NEW YORK "THE BIG APPLE" MEANING "THE
BIG TIME."

THE NICKNAME WASN'T WIDELY USED UNTIL A 1971 WHEN IT BECAME PART OF A NEW
YORK CONVENTION AND VISITORS BUREAU PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN.

AS FOR NEW ORLEANS, THE TERM COMES FROM A TURN OF THE CENTURY JAZZ CLUB
CALLED THE "BIG EASY HALL." IN 1970 POLICE REPORTER JAMES CANOPY WROTE A
NEW-ORELEANS BASED CRIME NOVEL CALLED "THE BIG EASY." AND MUCH OF THE CREDIT GOES TO
TIMES-PICAYUNE COLUMNIST BETTY GUILLAUD WHO POPULARIZED THE PHRASE IN THE 1970'S.



   Here's another without money or credit:

THE NEW YORK CABBIE COOKBOOK
by Mary Ellen WInston and Holly Garrison
Philadelphia: Running Press Book Publishers
2003

Pg. 44:  BIG APPLE BITE:
   It's long been believed that New York was nicknamed "the Big Apple" by
jazz musicians who regarded a gig in Harlem to be a sign that they had made it.
It turns out that it had actually first appeared in the 1920s when reporter
John Fitzgerald, who reported on horse races for the _Morning Telegraph_,
referred to the New York racetrack.  Apparently, stable hands in New Orleans called
a trip to a New York racetrack the "Big Apple"--or sweet reward--for any
talented thoroughbred.  The term passed into popular uswage long after the
racetrack disappeared.


   Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.  These
are the "miracles," mind you:

THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
by James Trager
New York: HarperResource
2003

Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a cartoon
by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a dachshund
inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students at Yale dorms
since 1894.

Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity campaign
organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years ago by _Morning
Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New Orleans
by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of a
popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to mean
New York City.

   There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.  But in
these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog" work
and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work is
either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch, these are miracles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
NON-MIRACLES

   I have kept the Chicago Public Library informed of all early citations of
"the WIndy City."  No one has written back with anything at all, not even a
"thank you." Ever.   It was in May that I told the CPL to change its web site.
I was told the CPL is thinking about it.
   I told the CPL again.  Yet again, they're still "thinking."
   This is a web site.  This is a few lines of computer text that will take
about a minute or two to correct.  But it's Barry Popik--let's not do him any
favors.

Subj:   Response from CPL E-Mail Reference Team
Date:   10/29/2003 6:15:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:refdesk at chipublib.org">refdesk at chipublib.org</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear Mr. Popik:

We are contacting you in reply to your E-Mail reference question.

Your question was:
Why do you still list the "Windy City" 1893 World's Fair myth?  As you
know, I have worked very, very hard, and have traced "Windy City" to 1876.

Answer:
Thank you for your thoughts re 'Windy City' on our web site.  We are
considering your suggestion and are looking into the matter.

Source:


We hope this information is useful and you will use CPL E-Mail Reference
in the future.

CPL E-Mail Reference Team


   We hope this information is useful?  How can that be useful??  They said
this four months ago!
   What other professional has to go through such misery to give away his or
her work for free?

   The American Antiquarian Society (Worcester, Massachusetts) didn't have
the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER or much of the CHICAGO TIMES, but it had one day of the
latter that was of interest.  I'll post that now.

   8 May 1876, CHICAGO TIMES, pg. 4, col. 5:
_THE WILD WIND._
_Which Tore Its Way Through_
   _Chicago with Terrible Havoc_
   _on Saturday._
(...)
_The Wind's Work._
   A tornado, momentary in duration but terrible in its strength, passed over
this city on last Saturday evening at 5 o'clock.

(The CINCINNNATI ENQUIRER would use "THAT WINDY CITY" on May 9th--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT: PARKING TICKETS  (non-miracles)

   The state surcharge, now $5 on every parking ticket, it going up to $15 in
two weeks.  To $15, even on a $20 meter ticket.  Plus $60 of penalties after
about 90 days.  This is worse than cigarette taxes.  There's been no publicity
about it.  The state surcharge money in the past has gone to Buffalo!
   I'll be doing parking tickets again tomorrow until 8 p.m., and then I have
more parking tickets starting at 8:30 a.m. on Friday.  I've been almost full
time this summer.
   There's a new computer system that was installed this week, so judges are
now clerks.  The chief judge and other bigs came to the Bronx to inspect the
new system.  I felt like asking a few questions:

   See this?  There are bars on the windows!  Why are there bars on the
windows?  Is this the goddamn 1911 Triangle factory?  And why do I work ten hours
straight in a room with no window at all and no air?
   There was a blackout on a Thursday/Friday.  That was over two months ago.
Why aren't we paid?
   Why did we miss another week of pay?
   Why are we paid significantly less (when we are paid) than judges at any
other city agency?  It used to be the same.
   Why was my best friend fired?  Why isn't anyone told?  Is it true that
he's suing the city for age discrimination?  Do you realize that I now work every
day in his room without air?
   Do you know that I'm the famous Barry Popik?  I once solved "the Big
Apple."  It's brought me great riches and respect...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 05:01:12 2003
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:01:12 -0500
Subject: Dulce de Leche
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.000112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 ?  "Dulce de Leche" is not in the OED. ? Not once, anywhere. ? There are 37,100 Google hits. ?
 ?  I've been aware of the Haagen-Daz product for some time:
 ?
http://www.haagen-dazs.com/segpro.do?productId=73
Dulce De Leche
 ?  ICE CREAM ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
Inspired by Latin America???s treasured dessert, our Dulce de Leche ice cream is a delicious combination of caramel and sweet cream, swirled with ribbons of golden caramel. ? H??agen-Dazs transforms a Latin classic into a sweetly romantic and richly satisfying ice cream.
 ?
 ?  There are 13 trademarks:
 ?
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark
 THE ORIGINAL DULCE DE LECHE ICE CREAM
 Translations
The English translation of "DULCHE DE LECHE" is "SWEET FROM MILK".
 Goods and Services
IC ? 030. ? US 046. ? G & S: Ice cream
 Mark Drawing Code
(1) TYPED DRAWING
 Serial Number
78160277
 Filing Date
September 3, 2002
 Current Filing Basis
1B
 Original Filing Basis
1B
 Owner
(APPLICANT) Coco Gelato, Corp. CORPORATION FLORIDA 163 NE 24 Street Miami FLORIDA 33137
 Disclaimer
NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "DULCHE DE LECHE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
 Type of Mark
TRADEMARK
 Register
PRINCIPAL
 Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE
 ?
 ?  Today's article in the NEW YORK SUN, 29 October 2003, pg. 17, col. 1, convinces me it has to be entered in the OED:
 ?
_Argentinian Gold: ? Dulce de Leche_
By PAUL LUKAS
 ?  The dinner, at an Argentinian restaurant, had been great, and the dessert was even better: a fondue featuring little biscuits and cookies and a saucepan of the wonderful caramel sauce known as _dulce de leche_.
 ?  "God, I love this stuff," said my friend Sarah, dipping another cookie into the saucepan. ? "But what is _dulce de leche_ anyway?"
 ?  "Well, it translates to 'sweet milk,'" I said, feeling all multiculural and factoid-handy.
 ?  "Yeah," she said, "but what _is_ it? ? How do they make it? ? Like, do they just melt a bunch of Kraft caramels or what?"
 ?  These are good questions, and timely ones too, because _dulce de leche_, once consigned to the ethnic fringe, has acquired much more of a mainstream profile in recent years. ? Many coffee bars now offer _dulce de leche_-flavored java, plus there's _dulce de leche_ Haagen-Dazs, and for a while last year the Mars candy folks were even test-marketing _dulce de leche_ M&M's. ? Not bad for something that was once found exclusively in SOuth American restaurants,
 ?  Although _dulce de leche_ has a complex, almost nutty flavor, it's remarkably simple stuff: just milk, sugar, and sodium bicarbonate (commonly known as baking soda), which serves as an emulsifier. ? It's native to Argentina, where it's essentially the national dessert, poured over ice cream, pastries, fruit, and just about anything else that doesn't move, and also enjoyed straight out of the jar. ? Annual per-capita consumption in Argentina is in the 10-pound range (think about that--the mind fairly boggles), a fitgure boosted by the fact that _dulce de leche_ is even fed to Argentinian babies because of its high calcium content. ? Got milk, indeed.
 ?  The standard story, perhaps coincidental, is that _dulce de leche_ was invented by accident in 1829, (Col. 2--ed.) when a servant was preparing _techada_ (boiled milk and sugar) for an Argentinian general and mistakenly left the pot unattended over the fire. ? The general later found the concoction, which had turned brown, gooey, and delicious, dipped a baguette into it, and _dulce de leche_ was born. ? Although the preparation soon spread to other South American countries and to Europe, the Argentinian rendition is reputedly still the best. ? Food scientists will tell you this because Argentinian cows graze in the vast prairies known as the pampas, whose grasslands produce high-quality milk rich in conjugated linoleic acid and omega-3 fatty acids; others say Argentinians just know how to make _dulce de leche_, just as New Yorkers know how to make pizza.
(...)
 ?
 ?
(JSTOR)
Eunice Joiner Gates
Hispanic Review, Vol. 16, No. 1. (Jan., 1948), pp. 33-49.
Pg. 41: ? Even the favorite gaucho delicacy, the _dulce de alfajor_, composed of two superimposed pastry rounds with a filling of _dulce de leche_, appears as an image for describing the closeness of riders and steers at a round-up:...
 ?
 ?
(PROQUEST) ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? Some Argentine Desserts
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Christian Science Monitor ? (1908-Current file). ?  ?  ?  Boston, Mass.: Jan 14, 1930. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. 10 (1 page) :
 ?  ?  ? _Dulce de Leche_
 ?  This sweet is made of cream and milk boiled with sugar until it forms a thick paste. ? It can be used either as a filling for cakes, biscuits, alfajores, etc., or else eaten instead of jam on bread and butter. ? CHildren love it. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? Food Is Both Plentiful And Cheap in Argentina
 ?  ?  ?  Special to The Christian Science Monitor. ?  ?  ?  Christian Science Monitor ? (1908-Current file). ?  ?  ?  Boston, Mass.: Aug 28, 1944. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. 11 (1 page) ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS) ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? Sweet and smooth: Dulce de leche delights
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ? Houston Chronicle. ?  ?  ?  Houston, Tex.: May 14, 2003. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. 4 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
HYDE PARK, N.Y. - Dulce de leche, translated as "milk jam," is a soft caramel confection that's very popular throughout Mexico, Central and South America.

 ?  It's a relative newcomer to the United States' taste buds, but it is quickly growing in popularity. Swirled into ice creams and yogurt blends, and used as a filling in prepared frozen dessert items, dulce de leche is becoming a fast favorite as a dessert ingredient.

 ?  Traditional dulce de leche is a simple combination of whole milk and sugar, usually flavored with cinnamon, vanilla or lemon - slight variations often according to local tradition.

 ?  The milk and sugar are combined over low heat and cooked slowly. At this temperature, it is the milk solids that caramelize, and which provide the distinct flavor and color.

 ?  The mixture is cooked until it reduces to about one-quarter of its original volume. The result is a sweet, smooth sauce, which is easy to spread when chilled.

 ?  Variations of dulce de leche include products such as cajeta, which is made with goat milk or a combination of goat and cow milk. Stronger in flavor than dulce de leche, cajeta is also popular in Mexico and Argentina.

 ?  Homemade dulce de leche is traditionally used as a filling for cakes, to line pie shells later filled with sweet custard, and as a topping for fresh fruit.

 ?  "Smooth, sweet and creamy, dulce de leche and cajeta are delicacies," says Joseba Encabo, assistant professor in culinary arts at the Culinary Institute of America. She adds that you can simply spread the sweet treat on a slice of fresh bread, or put a spoonful in your mouth before your morning coffee, or to savor as a snack.

 ?  The following dulce de leche recipe is made in the traditional manner, beginning with whole milk and sugar. Although the cooking time is about two hours, this dulce de leche virtually cooks itself, requiring only minimal attention.

 ?  The result is well worth the lengthy cooking time. In fact, dulce de leche is so tempting you may find it hard to resist a spoonful straight from the pan.

 ?  This recipe and many other desserts are explained and illustrated in the Culinary Institute of America's forthcoming Baking and Pastry, Mastering the Art and Craft cookbook, scheduled for publication early in 2004.
 ?
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
 ?  ?  ? Dulce de Leche Takes A Spot in Vocabulary And Pantries of U.S.
 ?  ?  ?  By Shelly Branch. ?  ?  ?  Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). ?  ?  ?  New York, N.Y.: Oct 12, 2001. ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  p. B.8 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
As distracted Americans increasingly reach for comforting, indulgent foods, a popular dessert from Argentina, called dulce de leche, is commanding a place in the U.S.'s pantries and vocabulary.

 ?  Jellies and confections maker J.M. Smucker Co., based in Orrville, Ohio, sells two varieties of dulce de leche caramel toppings. Mars Inc. recently introduced dulce de leche M&M's. Even Groupe Danone's U.S. Dannon unit has whipped up a dulce de leche yogurt as part of its La Creme dessert line.

 ?  The ubiquity of the caramel treat, whose name translates into "sweet of milk," signals a subtle shift in the food industry.

 ?  Over the years, food companies have strained to win over various ethnic groups, particularly consumers of Hispanic origin. Most efforts centered on special ads, as well as ethnic recipes -- for BBQ beef fajitas, for example -- that call for mainstream ingredients, such as Kraft Foods Inc.'s Original Barbecue sauce.

 ?  Rarely, however, do major food companies in the U.S. import ideas from non-English-speaking cultures and commit to marketing them broadly. "Mainstream America tends to be very insular in its food tastes," notes Lynn Dornblazer, editorial director of Mintel's Global New Products Database. One notable exception: salsa, the Mexican staple.

 ?  But, back to dulce de leche. Before 1998, there were virtually no mass-marketed dulce de leche products in the U.S. But in the past three years, according to Mintel's of Chicago, a total of 36 products -- ranging from coffee to toppings, ice creams, yogurts and cosmetics -- have been launched for broad distribution.

 ?  Cosmetics company Coty Inc. rolled out a dulce de leche-inspired scent in 1999, and France's L'Oreal SA followed up in the U.S. with a lip gloss under the dulce de leche name. And Mars's dulce de leche M&M is its first new variety of the candy since 1999.

 ?  Much of the credit for dulce de leche's popularity in the U.S. rests with Haagen-Dazs. Back in 1997, executives at Diageo PLC's Pillsbury unit were preparing to expand their scoop shops to Argentina. A potential franchisee noted that about 30% of that country's ice-cream sales were of the dulce de leche flavor. The ice-cream maker didn't have one.

 ?  "Haagen-Dazs decided it needed a dulce de leche flavor in order to be a credible business in Argentina," says Stephen Moss, vice president of marketing for the brand. Haagen-Dazs ice cream is now sold in the U.S. by Ice Cream Partners USA, a joint venture between Nestle SA and Pillsbury.

 ?  Haagen-Dazs brought dulce de leche to the U.S. in 1998. While most Americans could relate to plain old caramel, marketers feared the term dulce de leche might be lost in translation.

 ?  Eventually, the company decided that the authentic term would signal something new to consumers, who were already familiar with Haagen-Dazs's other caramel flavors.

 ?  "To help out the Anglo market, we put the word caramel underneath dulce de leche on the package," recalls Mr. Moss.

 ?  Although the first pints were available only in heavily Hispanic areas, dulce de leche was soon outselling other Haagen-Dazs products launched nationwide at the same time.

 ?  Today, the caramel-laced ice cream is Haagen-Dazs's sixth-best-selling flavor in the U.S. out of 34 varieties.

 ?  Imitators quickly followed, including dulce de leche ice-cream versions from Good Humor-Breyers Ice Cream Co. and Starbucks Corp. Smucker, a major player in spreads and dessert toppings, jumped in with its first dulce de leche spread in 1999 and recently rolled out a dulce ice-cream topping.
 ?
 ?
(I'd normally check out dozens of books about Argentina, but I'm a full-time parking ticket judge now--ed.)


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Oct 30 08:58:36 2003
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:58:36 -0800
Subject: Dulce de Leche
In-Reply-To: <200310292129.1af5nl2jQ3NZFkN0@swallow>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.005836.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dulce De Leche
>  ?  ICE CREAM ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?
>Inspired by Latin America???s treasured dessert, our Dulce de Leche
>ice cream is a delicious combination of caramel and sweet cream,
>swirled with ribbons of golden caramel. ? H??agen-Dazs transforms a
>Latin classic into a sweetly romantic and richly satisfying ice
>cream.

Just on a personal note, I got some of the Haagen-Dazs Dulce de Leche
ice cream, having heard of it for quite some time.  I thought it was
completely tasteless.  It was a lovely texture, and cold and creamy,
but had no taste.  Your mouth knew it had ice cream in it, but that
was about it.  Am I alone in this?

Rima


From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 11:10:35 2003
From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 06:10:35 EST
Subject: pre-hot dog
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.061035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
    www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?

Lois Nathan


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 11:29:33 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:29:33 -0400
Subject: quote-unquote
In-Reply-To: <3FA036B0.92313CC0@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.072933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In two places (1994, Content-oriented discourse analysis and folk
linguistics. Language Sciences 16,2:285-330 and 1993, The uses of
folk linguistics. International Journal of Applied Linguistics
3,2:181-259) I have written about the "softener" (rather than
contradictory or synonym for "so-called") use of "quote-unquote."
It's a very interesting discourse ploy that could use some more work.
The examples I found were used in connection with the speaker's
sensitivity to references to social class.

dInIs


>That's how we used to do/say it in copy editing and publishing:
>quote-endquote.
>
>SOD
>
>
>
>George Thompson wrote:
>
>>  I have always supposed that "unquote" represents "end quote": "our
>>president is a quote great war leader end quote" and that those who
>>suppose otherwise are the ones who say "unquote" and put it
>>immediately after the word "quote" rather than after the words
>>being quoted.  {Notice the careful avoidance of prescriptivism
>>here.)  Nor would I ever type "quote . . . endquote" or expect to
>>read "quote unquote".  I would expect to use and to see actual
>>quotations marks.  (A bit of prescriptivism creeps in here, I
>>admit.  But nobody's perfect.)
>>
>>  There are also people who indicate a quotation when speaking by
>>wiggling two fingers at the beginning and the end of the quotation.
>>
>>  GAT
>>
>>  George A. Thompson
>>  Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>>Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>  Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:30 am
>>  Subject: Re: UN-words
>>
>>  > Larry Horn writes:
>>  > >  Your
>>  > >"unquote" is a bit different, because I'm not quite sure how to
>>  > >describe it's category when used in metalinguistic contexts like
>>  > >"He's a quote linguist unquote" or "He's a quote unquote linguist".
>>  > >(The AHD lists it as a noun, but I'm not sure I agree.)
>>  > ~~~~~~~~~
>>  > On the face of it, quote/unquote looks to be functionally
>>  > equivalent to
>>  > do/undo:  doesn't sound like a noun to me.  (I was NOT going to call
>>  > attention to your "it's" but I see you've already blushed.)
>>  > A. Murie
>>  >

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 11:45:14 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:45:14 -0400
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <11c.277a1897.2cd24bab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.074514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
delete finger is growing weary.

Hopefully,

dInIs



Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?

Lois Nathan

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From hstahlke at BSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 12:53:02 2003
From: hstahlke at BSU.EDU (Stahlke, Herbert F.W.)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:53:02 -0500
Subject: winfall
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.075302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sub-head in today's Indianapolis Star, front page, above the fold:
 
$95.4 million jackpot is biggest individual winfall in state history.
 
Google shows 9320 hits for "winfall", many of which are lottery-related.  It shows 238,000 hits for "windfall".  Of the first 100, only one is lottery related, and that one occurs in The Guardian.  Many uses are related to unexpected money from other sources, though.
 
Herb
 


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:50:31 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:50:31 -0600
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.075031.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_ and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language variation. 
    For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the ads-l messages.
I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
 
Al;l good wishes.
Gerald Cohen
 
P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to it).

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston 
	Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM 
	To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: a small plea
	
	

	In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
	having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
	exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
	bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
	could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
	delete finger is growing weary.
	
	Hopefully,
	
	dInIs
	
	
	
	Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
	     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
	ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
	sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
	
	Lois Nathan
	
	--
	Dennis R. Preston
	University Distinguished Professor
	Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
	      Asian & African Languages
	Michigan State University
	East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
	e-mail: preston at msu.edu
	phone: (517) 432-3099
	


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:55:10 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:55:10 -0500
Subject: Dulce de Leche
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.085510.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:01 AM 10/30/2003, you wrote:
>?  "Dulce de Leche" is not in the OED. ? Not once, anywhere. ? There are
>37,100 Google hits. ?
>  ?  I've been aware of the Haagen-Daz product for some time:
>  ?

I'm sure this isn't the earliest English citation, but Frank Loesser used
it in his musical 'Guys and Dolls' (1950), in a delightful scene where
Nathan Detroit takes Sarah (a teetotaling Salvation Army type) to Havana
and introduces her to the drink ('it's milk, with Bacardi, a sort of native
flavoring')  Sarah then observes that with a taste this good, there would
be no problem getting children to drink their milk.

Geoff


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Oct 30 13:27:07 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:27:07 -0400
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <93434D835E4A0040A4FB5343603B45130EEE9B@umr-mail6.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.092707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.

dInIs

>The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
>the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
>Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
>others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
>and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
>good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
>variation.
>     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
>work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
>for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
>ads-l messages.
>I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
>
>Al;l good wishes.
>Gerald Cohen
>
>P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
>now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
>it).
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
>       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
>       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>       Cc:
>       Subject: Re: a small plea
>
>
>
>       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
>       having to do with language variation in the Americas and not almost
>       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
>       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on such,
>       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but my
>       delete finger is growing weary.
>
>       Hopefully,
>
>       dInIs
>
>
>
>       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
>            www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up
>quiz where they
>       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
>it was "dachshund
>       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
>
>       Lois Nathan
>
>       --
>       Dennis R. Preston
>       University Distinguished Professor
>       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>             Asian & African Languages
>       Michigan State University
>       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>       phone: (517) 432-3099
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 432-3099


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 15:21:39 2003
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:21:39 -0500
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
 Library)
In-Reply-To: <ea.40930eee.2cd1e287@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.102139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:41 PM -0500 10/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.  These
>are the "miracles," mind you:
>
>THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
>by James Trager
>New York: HarperResource
>2003
>
>Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a cartoon
>by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a dachshund
>inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
>reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students
>at Yale dorms
>since 1894.
>
>Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity campaign
>organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
>Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years
>ago by _Morning
>Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New Orleans
>by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of a
>popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to mean
>New York City.
>
>    There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.  But in
>these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog" work
>and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work is
>either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
>Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch,
>these are miracles.
>
Other minor errors in these reports:  (i) "Fitz Gerald" consistently
spelled "Fitzgerald"; (ii) use of the present perfect in Trager's
first paragraph falsely implying that those legendary Yale food
wagons have been continuously purveying hot dogs for over a hundred
years up to this afternoon.  Unfortunately, they were closed down
some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 16:24:50 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:24:50 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <004901c39b6a$de8fa3a0$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.112450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
she returns the call.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:27:47 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:27:47 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.112747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:24:50AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
> City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
> the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
> message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
> site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
> that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
> she returns the call.

Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.

Jesse
OED


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:33:50 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:33:50 EST
Subject: UN-words
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.113350.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated >  Wed, 29 Oct 2003 14:25:11 -0500,  Laurence Horn <
> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> responds to FRITZ JUENGLING <
> juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
>
>
> >
> >What's a 'dergraduate'?
> >Fritz
>
> From the German obviously--
> Der graduate   vs.   Undergraduate

More exactly, "der Graduate" is someone who has left college with a
bachelor's degree.  Der Undergraduate therefore is someone who has completed college
and has subsequently gotten married.

An amusing use of "un-":  the late science fiction writer Poul Anderson wrote
a novella entitled "UN-man" (also used as the title of a book containing
several Anderson stories).  The title character is
   1) a genetically altered human
   2) a Schwartzeneggeresque secret agent for the United Nations.

Well-written office software offers various "UNDO" options, such as "unbold",
"undelete", etc.  (One can imagine an "unetc" which trims items off a list.)
I have always considered "undelete" to be an unfelicitous name for a most
felicitious operation.

A word processor for which I have fond memories was Word-11 (on the DEC
PDP-11 minicomputer).  One key on the keyboard was designated as the "Gold key"
(and on our keyboards had a piece of gold foil taped on it).  Pressing the gold
key before a function key reversed the action of the function key, e.g. if you
pressed the gold key before the boldfacing key you removed rather than adding
boldface.  The gold key was most welcome since Word-11's
puppy-dog-user-friendliness made it quite easy to convert half your document to boldface (or
italics or whatever).  This blessed keystroke combination was known as "gold bold".

          - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Oct 30 16:43:46 2003
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:43:46 EST
Subject: BBQ (1951)
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.114346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 1980's the proprietor of a barbeque establishment sued his local
phone company to have them place the letter "Q" on the dials/keypads of their
telephones so that he could have a phone number that would spell out the
title of his main sales item.  I don't know what became of the suit.  The news
article I read quoted the phone company's attorney as commenting on the
impossible logistics of the plaintiff's request.  Apparently it did not occur to the
phone company that there is no "q" in "barbecue".

          - James A. Landau

PS.  The following is a true story; I have seen the listing in question.

Also circa 1980 a local phone company (I believe it was Indiana Bell), in
order to make sure that their customers knew how to reach them, listed themselves
in their own phone directory under six different names, including "Telephone
Company", "Phone Company", and---da duh---"Fone Company".


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Oct 30 20:21:51 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:21:51 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <20031030162747.GA9705@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.152151.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.

Thanks, Jesse.  Because of your ultra-prestigious title, you might
actually be the best one to convince them.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Thu Oct 30 21:03:02 2003
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:03:02 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.160302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in 1997, Anne Widdecombe said of Michael Howard, former Home Affairs
minister, that Howard had, "something of the night" about him. The quote
has been applied to him as "Mr. Something-of-the-Night" and resurfaced
today in the IHT. Most of the hits I come across refer to this comment. But
there are others, mostly in British publications.

"She had a chilling, thrilling voice, with more than something of the night
about it, but it was the sanest presence in the piece."  The Guardian, Oct.
23, 2003 page 20.

"But [Mick] Jagger has still managed to keep something of the night about
him." The Guardian, Jul. 29, 2003. page 22.

"There's something of the night about Iraq, something dark and mysterious
and other-worldly, where different logic takes hold, particularly in
periods where war seems possible, even inevitable." CBS, Sept. 22, 2002
(Mark Phillips, although not British, has been stationed at the CBS London
bureau forever.)

And this curious one, if this phrase means what I think it means.

"It may be doubted whether a more variegated life and more complex and
brilliant characters would not have been beyond [Nathaniel] Hawthorne's
power of truthful representation. He has in very fact something of the
night about his disposition, and whatever he prevailingly portrays has
either to have in its nature a suggestion of the discoloured temperateness
of night, or else to be thinned away and modulated through his imagination
until it has lost the grossness and actuality of fact and grown tenuous and
pallid." Studies and Appreciations, Lewis E. Gates, 1900.

How's that for a 100 year gap? I looked in the OED, Googled it, looked in
Cassell's, Picturesque Expressions, and Partridge, Questia and Proquest,
and the ADS archives, and I'll continue to look in this library of his, but
have yet to find a written definition of it.

So is it metaphoric for sinister and dark? Evil, of sorts. OR just
something "otherworldly." Quirky and Gothic? What exactly does it mean? And
is it used outside of the UK?
Where did it come from?


Thanks again for any help,


Katy


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Oct 30 21:58:39 2003
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:58:39 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.165839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Here's an earlier, more literal use, c. 1886 (or possibly a year or two earlier):

        >>December 30, 1850.--The relation of thought to action filled my mind on
waking, and I found myself carried toward a bizarre formula, which seems
to have something of the night still clinging about it: _Action is but
coarsened thought_; thought become concrete, obscure, and unconscious.<<

        This is from Amiel's Journal (a translation of Journal Intime), by Henri Frederic Amiel, translated by Mary A. (Mrs. Humphrey) Ward (Project Gutenberg text), ftp://sailor.gutenberg.org/pub/gutenberg/etext05/8ajrn10.txt.  The translation does not seem to be dated, but cannot be earlier than 1882 (when the Journal Intime was first published) or later than 1886 (when the passage in question was quoted in an article in The Guardian).

John Baker


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Thu Oct 30 23:27:06 2003
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:27:06 -0600
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <20031030162747.GA9705@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.172706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And if you think a local voice would help, count me in as well.

Erin
editor at verbatimmag.com

At 11:27 AM -0500 10/30/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 11:24:50AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>  In an attempt to spare ADS-L participants from at least some of the "Windy
>>  City" bashing, as well as to further the cause of truth, I have called up
>>  the director of the Chicago Public Library's Information Center and left a
>>  message trying to speak to her about the inaccurate info on their web
>>  site.  Maybe as a librarian I can get through to these people in a way
>>  that presumably strident communications from Barry do not.  We'll see if
>>  she returns the call.
>
>Feel free to drop my name/number if you think it would help.
>
>Jesse
>OED


From mkuha at BSU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 00:54:55 2003
From: mkuha at BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:54:55 -0500
Subject: winfall
In-Reply-To: <EXMAIL02Jn9ofaqTn9S0002afb7@exmail02.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.195455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like "winfall" has been removed from the online version of the story!

-Mai

> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <hstahlke at BSU.EDU>
>
> Sub-head in today's Indianapolis Star, front page, above the fold:
> =20
> $95.4 million jackpot is biggest individual winfall in state history.
> =20
> Google shows 9320 hits for "winfall", many of which are lottery-related. =
> It shows 238,000 hits for "windfall".  Of the first 100, only one is =
> lottery related, and that one occurs in The Guardian.  Many uses are =
> related to unexpected money from other sources, though.
> =20
> Herb
> =20
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 02:40:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 21:40:14 -0500
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.214014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would think that broadening the range would require more people posting
more messages about language variations in America.   The board is there for
the posting.  But the posts just don't seem to come very frequently.  Any
ideas on how to make that happen?

I apologize to people on this board who have little interest in antedatings.
I'm a big offender.  I'll try to do better.  But I assume that Jesse
Sheidlower, as a co-owner of the list, has a small interest in people
working for free to help make the OED(and M-W) be all that it can be.  If
Jesse would prefer we post directly to OED, I'd be fine with that.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: a small plea


> I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.
>
> dInIs
>
> >The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
> >the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
> >Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
> >others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
> >and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
> >good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
> >variation.
> >     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
> >work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
> >for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
> >ads-l messages.
> >I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
> >
> >Al;l good wishes.
> >Gerald Cohen
> >
> >P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
> >now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
> >it).
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
> >       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
> >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >       Cc:
> >       Subject: Re: a small plea
> >
> >
> >
> >       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of this list,
> >       having to do with language variation in the Americas and not
almost
> >       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase or the
> >       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent thoughts on
such,
> >       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to delete, but
my
> >       delete finger is growing weary.
> >
> >       Hopefully,
> >
> >       dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> >       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
> >            www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up
> >quiz where they
> >       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
> >it was "dachshund
> >       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?
> >
> >       Lois Nathan
> >
> >       --
> >       Dennis R. Preston
> >       University Distinguished Professor
> >       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >             Asian & African Languages
> >       Michigan State University
> >       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >       phone: (517) 432-3099
> >
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099
>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 04:21:14 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:21:14 -0500
Subject: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
 Library)
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.232114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry said <Unfortunately, they were closed down
some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.>

And you know that the food the  Moghul wagons sell contains no DOG  how?
Done an analysis lately?

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Miracles (NY Chronology) & Non-Miracles (Chicago Public
Library)


> At 10:41 PM -0500 10/29/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >    Here's yet another--a double this time--without money or credit.
These
> >are the "miracles," mind you:
> >
> >THE NEW YORK CHRONOLOGY
> >by James Trager
> >New York: HarperResource
> >2003
> >
> >Pg. 304 (1906):  The "hot dog" gets its name by some accounts from a
cartoon
> >by Chicago cartoonist Thomas Aloysius "Tad" Dorgan, 29, who shows a
dachshund
> >inside a frankfurter bun (see Feldman, 1867), but New Haven vendors have
> >reportedly been selling frankfurters from "dog wagons" to students
> >at Yale dorms
> >since 1894.
> >
> >Pg. 703 (1971):  The Big Apple gets that name as part of a publicity
campaign
> >organized by New York Convention and Visitors Bureau president Charles
> >Gillett, who revives a nickname first popularized more than 40 years
> >ago by _Morning
> >Telegraph_ reporter John J. Fitz Gerald (who had heard it used at New
Orleans
> >by black stablehands in reference to New York's racetracks).  The name of
a
> >popular dance in the 1930s, it was used by jazz musicians of that era to
mean
> >New York City.
> >
> >    There are a few errors.  TAD was from San Francisco, not Chicago.
But in
> >these brutal few months, where Bruce Kraig gets credit for my "hot dog"
work
> >and his own book promotion is incredibly wrong, where my "Big Apple" work
is
> >either forgotten or ignored by the New York Public Library, the New-York
> >Historical Society, the Gotham Center, and former mayor Ed Koch,
> >these are miracles.
> >
> Other minor errors in these reports:  (i) "Fitz Gerald" consistently
> spelled "Fitzgerald"; (ii) use of the present perfect in Trager's
> first paragraph falsely implying that those legendary Yale food
> wagons have been continuously purveying hot dogs for over a hundred
> years up to this afternoon.  Unfortunately, they were closed down
> some time between 1896 and 1975, although anymore there's a nice
> non-dog wagon that sells Moghul food.
>
> Larry
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Oct 31 04:24:31 2003
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:24:31 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <004c01c39f58$50a78480$8020a618@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.232431.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 09:40:14PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> I would think that broadening the range would require more people posting
> more messages about language variations in America.   The board is there for
> the posting.  But the posts just don't seem to come very frequently.  Any
> ideas on how to make that happen?
>
> I apologize to people on this board who have little interest in antedatings.
> I'm a big offender.  I'll try to do better.  But I assume that Jesse
> Sheidlower, as a co-owner of the list, has a small interest in people
> working for free to help make the OED(and M-W) be all that it can be.  If
> Jesse would prefer we post directly to OED, I'd be fine with that.

My co-ownership takes the form only of my willingness to
handle certain administrative duties; it gives me no say (or,
rather, no more say than anyone else) about what is transacted
on the list. I'd be happy to see a broader discussion about
other aspects of things-in-which-the-ADS-has-an-interest-in.

Personally, I don't think that we should ignore antedatings,
or shunt them to private channels.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 31 04:44:51 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:44:51 -0600
Subject: pre-hot dog
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.224451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:10 AM -0500 10/30/03, Lois Nathan wrote:
>Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested parties,
>     www.bluemountain.com the other day was running a pop-up quiz where they
>ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim it was "dachshund
>sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this true?


The claim that "dachshund sausage" was a pre-hot dog term is incorrect.
See the ads-l archives for Barry Popik's first message of Sept. 22, 2003.
It's clear from Barry's search of "dachshund" and "sausage" that the
mental connection of these two terms came only AFTER the term "hot
dog" arose. The term arose based on the popular belief that dog meat
turned up in sausages at least occasionally, not from the idea that
the sausage looks like a dachshund.
Prior to "hot dog," the term was simply "(hot) sausage/frankfurter."

   The term "hot dog" arose in Yale college-slang (1894 or 1895) and
spread quickly to other colleges. TAD's two earliest "hot dog"
cartoons didn't come until 1906 and pertained to a six-day bike race
in Madison Square Garden, NOT to the Polo Grounds as is frequently
written. TAD's alleged Polo Grounds cartoon, which supposedly
launched the term "hot dog," never existed.

Gerald Cohen


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Oct 31 05:04:19 2003
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 23:04:19 -0600
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <THU.30.OCT.2003.230419.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:24 PM -0500 10/30/03, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>Personally, I don't think that we should ignore antedatings,
>or shunt them to private channels.

    Thanks, Jesse. The antedatings provide important raw material for
the preparation of articles on etymology as well as valuable
information for lexicographers and insight for the general educated
public.  Researchers like Fred Shapiro deserve an expression of
gratitude for their tireless ferreting out of new information. If we
step back and look at the totality of his contributions (and those of
others like Douglas Wilson and Sam Clements), the reaction will
likely be one of awe.

    And there's no reason why anyone else who has some insight to
share (or question to ask or some other matter of interest) can't
send that along too.
By all means, let's encourage members to share their thoughts with
us, with everyone welcome to do so.

Gerald Cohen


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Oct 31 08:28:52 2003
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:28:52 -0000
Subject: Query, British Saying
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.082852.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> So is it metaphoric for sinister and dark? Evil, of sorts. OR just
> something "otherworldly." Quirky and Gothic? What exactly does it mean?
And
> is it used outside of the UK?

Widdecombe, a singularly repellent figure in herself, was presumed to have
conjured the phrase up to decry her then boss, the even more odious Howard.
As you suggest, the image was of his being 'sinister and dark' (and he
did/does boast a suitably Dracula-like widow's peak, and cartoonists - see
for instance Steve Bell in yesterday's Guardian - have since used the phrase
to depict him as the Count). But otherwordly, quirky and Gothic - no way.
Just one more right-winger. It is unlikely that this Thatcherite hangover
will come to power, but after all, we hapless Brits have been ruled by her
true successor since 1997.

Jonathon Green


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Oct 31 15:16:51 2003
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:16:51 -0500
Subject: Query, British Saying
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20031030153425.00b3e528@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.101651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> Back in 1997, Anne Widdecombe said of Michael Howard, former Home Affairs
> minister, that Howard had, "something of the night" about him. The quote
> has been applied to him as "Mr. Something-of-the-Night" and resurfaced
> today in the IHT. Most of the hits I come across refer to this comment. But
> there are others, mostly in British publications.

Compare the phrase "keeps their fallen day about her" from the following
great passage from Walter Pater, Studies in the History of the Renaissance
(1873) (Pater is writing about DaVinci's Mona Lisa):

"She is older than the rocks among which she sits; like the vampire, she
has been dead many times, and learned the secrets of the grave; and has
been a diver in deep seas, and keeps their fallen day about her; and
trafficked for strange webs with Eastern merchants; and, as Leda, was the
mother of Helen of Troy, and as Saint Anne, the mother of Mary; and all
this has been to her but as the sound of lyres and flutes, and lives only
in the delicacy with which it has moulded the changing lineaments, and
tinged the eyelids and the hands."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Oct 31 15:35:47 2003
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:35:47 -0500
Subject: Wheedling
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.103547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20031031/e3027520/attachment.htm>

From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Oct 31 15:57:48 2003
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:57:48 -0500
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.105748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You can tell the folks at CPL that Merriam-Webster places very
high confidence in Barry's scholarship, too.

Joanne
Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 16:34:36 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:34:36 -0500
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.113436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In as much as there is no filter now in place that prevents people from posting messages about the word for chicken-coop used on the north bank of the Monongahela, and the fascinating way that it is pronounced, I see no reason to think that the discussions here are not already as broad was the contributors choose to make them.  Let Dennis and those who share his interests post whatever they please.  I have a delete button, too, and I know how to use it.

I am aware that some of us who are interested in the history of words are not outstanding wheat-from-chaff-sifters, but an excellent way to reduce the volume of otiose messages to this list, and one that's within the reach of us all, is to refrain from posting messages announcing that we find some messages uninteresting.  That, and refraining from posting whimsicalities about other folk's typing errors.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Date: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:27 am
Subject: Re: a small plea

> I was thinking of broadening the range of our discussions.
>
> dInIs
>
> >The biggest mistake our organization could make would be to limit
> >the range of discussion. The contributions that scholars like Fred
> >Shapiro, Barry Popik, Douglas Wilson, Sam Clements, John Baker and
> >others have made are considerable.  The topics in _American Speech_
> >and the works of Allen Walker Read (honored repeatedly, and with
> >good reason, by the American Dialect Society) go beyond language
> >variation.
> >     For those not interested in certain topics, the delete key does
> >work. And a bit of weariness in the finger is a small price to pay
> >for the great wealth of information that comes down the pike in the
> >ads-l messages.
> >I, for one, find this variety an invaluable asset in my research.
> >
> >Al;l good wishes.
> >Gerald Cohen
> >
> >P.S. Lois Nathan's question is a reasonable one. I'm off to class
> >now but will send an answer this evening (unless Barry beats me to
> >it).
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston
> >       Sent: Thu 10/30/2003 5:45 AM
> >       To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >       Cc:
> >       Subject: Re: a small plea
> >
> >
> >
> >       In the interests of the rather more general purposes of
> this list,
> >       having to do with language variation in the Americas and
> not almost
> >       exclusively the half-second antedating of a word or phrase
> or the
> >       bashing of those who have not seen the most recent
> thoughts on such,
> >       could this be answered privately. I know it's easy to
> delete, but my
> >       delete finger is growing weary.
> >
> >       Hopefully,
> >
> >       dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> >       Hi sports fans, food word searchers and all interested
> parties,>            www.bluemountain.com the other day was
> running a pop-up
> >quiz where they
> >       ask you to guess the term for "hot dog" in 1905.  They claim
> >it was "dachshund
> >       sausage", popularized by sportswriter Tad Dorgan.  Is this
> true?>
> >       Lois Nathan
> >
> >       --
> >       Dennis R. Preston
> >       University Distinguished Professor
> >       Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >             Asian & African Languages
> >       Michigan State University
> >       East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> >       e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> >       phone: (517) 432-3099
> >
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>      Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 432-3099
>


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Oct 31 16:45:32 2003
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:45:32 -0600
Subject: Attempt to Break the "Windy City" Logjam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0310301121130.25920-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.104532.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another local voice to chip in, if you want.


Greg
--
-

Gregory J. Pulliam
Associate Chair - Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Fri Oct 31 19:53:47 2003
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:53:47 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <4a3eff24a3f46a.4a3f46a4a3eff2@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.145347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:

>In as much as there is no filter now in place...

Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.

Cheers,
Scott



__________________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
__________________________________________________________________
"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set point.
Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to regulate us".
  -- George Loewenstein


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Oct 31 18:43:45 2003
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:43:45 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "ice cream cone" (1905)
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.134345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I posted a 1905 article from the Atlanta Constitution describing how
the cone was "invented" the year before in St. Louis, I found what I believe
to be the earliest cite for the whole term "ice cream cone."

Using Ancestry.com, from the Gettysburg (PA) Compiler, August 20, 1905;
page number unreadable, column 3:

<S. A. Troxel has concession for selling ice cream cones at Williams Grove.>

SC


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 20:37:35 2003
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:37:35 -0500
Subject: M. Lynne Murphy
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.153735.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems that it has been a year of so since we last heard from our pen-pal Lynne Murphy.

Cambridge University Press has just published her dissertation: Semantic relations and the lexicon : antonymy, synonymy and other paradigms.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Oct 31 21:34:03 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:34:03 -0800
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031031144711.03871f08@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.133403.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
observation FWIW.

It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
both, but nobody would have to.

If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
<lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:

> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>
>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>
> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
> and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Oct 31 21:49:04 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:49:04 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.134904.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter,
this is the best idea I have read--thanks.
Fritz
>>> pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU 10/31/03 01:34PM >>>
I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
observation FWIW.

It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
both, but nobody would have to.

If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
<lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:

> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>
>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>
> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
> and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
> __________________________________________________________________
> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Fri Oct 31 22:40:11 2003
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:40:11 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.144011.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter:

> It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one
the
> lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two
groups
> seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination
seems
> rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
> messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete"
key
> so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS
had
> two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
> both, but nobody would have to.

This is not a "dumb" idea.  I don't mind the lexicographers; sometimes
they're quite entertaining, and good discussions flow from the things they
say and do.  But OTOH, there are lots of questions *I* have about certain
kinds of language changes and uses, that don't seem to be getting addressed
here.  If there were two lists, maybe I or the rest of you could look at
both or one or the other if you or they were so inclined.
Anne G


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Oct 31 23:37:30 2003
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:37:30 -0500
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1067607243@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.183730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.

dInIs

>I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>observation FWIW.
>
>It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
>lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
>seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
>rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
>messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
>so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
>two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
>both, but nobody would have to.
>
>If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
><lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>
>>On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>
>>>In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>
>>Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
>>and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Oct 31 23:49:10 2003
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:49:10 -0800
Subject: a small plea
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.154910.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't think that's really what Peter was saying.  To my mind, the point is that many of these posts have nothing to do with dialect. They are simply to relate when a certain word may have been used first.  Those things have value, but not necessarily on the American DIALECT society list.
Fritz
>>> preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU 10/31/03 03:37PM >>>
>Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.

dInIs

>I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>observation FWIW.
>
>It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one the
>lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two groups
>seem to have fundamentally different interests, and cross-pollination seems
>rare, with each group mainly ignoring or deleting the other group's
>messages and sometimes getting grumbly about having to use the "delete" key
>so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to say this, but what if the ADS had
>two separate lists?  Anybody interested in both areas could subscribe to
>both, but nobody would have to.
>
>If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
><lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>
>>On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>
>>>In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>
>>Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by all
>>and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Scott Sadowsky + sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>"Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>
>
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Oct 31 23:56:03 2003
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 15:56:03 -0800
Subject: a small plea
In-Reply-To: <a05010400bbc8a2564138@[35.12.17.154]>
Message-ID: <FRI.31.OCT.2003.155603.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Odd, indeed.  And yet my point is that that is the current de facto
situation with this list.

Peter

--On Friday, October 31, 2003 6:37 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

>> Odd that the American Dialact Society should sponsor both of these
>> lists, and odd that linguists/dialectologists should be construed
>> somehow as "half" of what the ADS is about.
>
> dInIs
>
>> I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but here's an
>> observation FWIW.
>>
>> It looks as if there are basically two lists here under one "roof"--one
>> the lexicographers and the other the linguists/dialectologists.  The two
>> groups seem to have fundamentally different interests, and
>> cross-pollination seems rare, with each group mainly ignoring or
>> deleting the other group's messages and sometimes getting grumbly about
>> having to use the "delete" key so often.  It feels somewhat heretical to
>> say this, but what if the ADS had two separate lists?  Anybody
>> interested in both areas could subscribe to both, but nobody would have
>> to.
>>
>> If this is a really dumb idea, please use the "delete" key.
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> --On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:53 PM -0500 Scott Sadowsky
>> <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/31/2003 11:34 AM, George Thompson wrote the following:
>>>
>>>> In as much as there is no filter now in place...
>>>
>>> Why not ask people to put some sort of flag --such as "ANTE:"-- in the
>>> subject line of posts with antedatings?  That way they could be easily
>>> filtered, either to the trash or to a special antedating mail box, by
>>> all and sundry.  This is standard practice on many lists.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> Scott Sadowsky ? sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org
>>> http://www.spanishtranslator.org
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> "Happiness is a signal that our brains use to motivate us to do certain
>>> things. And in the same way that our eye adapts to different levels of
>>> illumination, we're designed to kind of go back to the happiness set
>>> point. Our brains are not trying to be happy. Our brains are trying to
>>> regulate us".   -- George Loewenstein
>>
>>
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************